Recently I been thinking, should a Single alien be equal in term of strength with the Predator. I get this idea from the AvP where Grid (Alien) fought Celtic (Predator) and won the battle. During the battle it felt like they are equals from one another even though they have different abilities it looks like it could've gone either side but unfortunately the film never seem to embrace this idea going for more Aliens style where the aliens get kills easily.
I think it would be a bit boring if every Alien and Predator were evenly matched. Naturally you'll have variations in the skill level and strength of a Predator, and we've seen strength variations in the Aliens such as certain 'alpha' types, or in Alien: Resurrection when they decide to off the weaker one as a means of escape.
Scar gained the upper hand once he had his plasmacaster, and the Aliens retreated to free the queen.
Even in circumstances when they may be close to evenly matched, as they appeared to be with Grid and Celtic, Celtic still had the advantage of a full suit of armor with multiple blades and a netgun. An unarmed Predator would likely be taken out quickly by an Alien.
With Chopper/Grid and Scar/Random Warrior, it's possible they were also close to evenly matched, but one just got the jump on the other or reacted faster and decisively ended things quickly.
Not much different than an MMA fight really, you can have anything from an instant knockout to a full five rounds. That variation and unpredictability makes things interesting in my opinion.
Grid lost to Celtic in the actual fight but Celtic got cocky and didn't go in for the kill when the alien was down and out, instead he allowed it to recover, and then pin and kill him.
Now in terms of sheer strength, I think maybe the Aliens should have the edge in raw physical might. Certain species of insects have been known to lift and carry multiple times their weight, scale that up for the mesoskeleton biomech horror that is the Alien and that should allow them to out muscle a Predator. But skill does factor in fights so its not a guarantee win for an Alien.
I agree with Ridgetop on the unpredictable potential when there is inequality between the two creatures, and the various possible circumstances / scenarios in which an Alien or Predator wins a fight.
Also, I think it's best when the antagonic force is more powerful than the hero, and while Predators aren't heroes in the strict sense of the word, audiences aren't going to identify thenself with the Alien (except for some dark folks 🦇👻💀👽). They're the vicious and byceral race of space monsters. The Predators may be hostil toward us most of the time, and yet they're a civilization. It's interesting when the universe and nature push physical resistance and technology to the limit. Thinking that a technologically advanced space hunter can find a challenge in the Alien is quite appealing.
I prefer the alien being stronger than a Predator. It means the predator has to rely on it's tech even more and would put it up against something physically superior. Sure, Predators are clearly strong enough to pick an alien up, but that should be like sticking your face in a blender in most cases.
It's like the stupid Throwminator meme. A terminator get its hands on you, it should be game over, not WWE.
Real question, how much could they curl? lol.
Honestly I think the original Alien vs. Predator was balanced quite nicely. Grid should have lost to Celtic when netted. The Predator's should have superior mid to far ranged ability because of their technological advancements. Grid losing because of Celtic's over-confidence was on point. Same as Chopper getting nailed from behind because of his on distraction and the Aliens stealth was also accurate. That said, I do think any actual CQB should be favoured towards the Aliens, unless the Predator is an absolute beast at technique - avoiding the acid damage, using the Alien's own strength against them and etc.
The way I see it is this, the xenomorph is canonically supposed to be bigger, faster, more agile and stronger than your average Pred. Yeah, a predator can lift Arny with one hand, but a xenomorph can pick you up, crawl up walls and run around with you and haul your ass back to the hive. As much as I like the AVP portion of the two licenses, most AVP stories end up simplifying both creatures to make them a simple match-up. Xenos being squishy, quick and nimble and Preds being lumbering muscle machines. Neither of these descriptions really fit the original creatures. Honestly, I feel like Preds and Xenos are pretty similar and equal to each other in their original imaginations, so anyone taking on the AVP IP has to simplify them to try and make them feel different and interesting.
Quote from: AllHailTheMagicConch on Jan 02, 2022, 02:37:58 PM
The way I see it is this, the xenomorph is canonically supposed to be bigger, faster, more agile and stronger than your average Pred. Yeah, a predator can lift Arny with one hand, but a xenomorph can pick you up, crawl up walls and run around with you and haul your ass back to the hive. As much as I like the AVP portion of the two licenses, most AVP stories end up simplifying both creatures to make them a simple match-up. Xenos being squishy, quick and nimble and Preds being lumbering muscle machines. Neither of these descriptions really fit the original creatures. Honestly, I feel like Preds and Xenos are pretty similar and equal to each other in their original imaginations, so anyone taking on the AVP IP has to simplify them to try and make them feel different and interesting.
Yeah, the Alien felt weak in 2010's avp what with the alien, walking on all fours, having no height advantage and being able to be gun butted on your ass by a human. As the melee fighters f three, they should have been more tougher.
It doesn't make much sense to me for the general, birthed from a human being Xenomorph to be stronger than a Predator. I feel Preds on average, would and should be stronger.
Birthed-from-human Aliens can beat down metal doors with their bare hands, what possibly indicates they shouldn't be as strong or stronger?
Predator can punch the shit out of Governator though
But didn't Wren say they inherit their strength like their memories though?
Not in the film at least.
Big Chap lifted 6ft3 Yaphet Kotto pretty easily also. Pretty sure the guy was really heavy. Possibly as heavy (just not as muscular of course) as Arnold in Predator.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 11, 2022, 12:08:37 AM
Birthed-from-human Aliens can beat down metal doors with their bare hands, what possibly indicates they shouldn't be as strong or stronger?
It's nuances, really. Winter Soldier is strong. Super strong. But Spider-Man is stronger. That's how I look at how Preds and Xenos should be scaled.
I also measure strength in more than just one asset. Preds appear to be a bit more resilient to physical harm, being able to take weapons fire of different kinds and still literally keep going, barely showing any sign of being hindered, physically.
Whilst Aliens get shot directly in the head and keep going further, possibly with exploding bullets, it's all degrees honestly.
I'd like to - theatrically - see a Predator take on the explosive tipped Pulse Rifle rounds. It seems to take literal point-blank for 19mm to do anything, and being inside the body for a 12 gauge to do anything. Granted the City Hunter keeps functioning after multiple 12 gauge shots, but the intent was he was starting to get particularly weakened after that.
It's an interesting subject, for sure. I think between the wildly different takes from writers and directors, it would be hard to use what was shown on film to definitely decide whom is on average, stronger.
But in my own (head)canon, its the Preds.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 11, 2022, 02:31:02 PM
I'd like to - theatrically - see a Predator take on the explosive tipped Pulse Rifle rounds. It seems to take literal point-blank for 19mm to do anything, and being inside the body for a 12 gauge to do anything. Granted the City Hunter keeps functioning after multiple 12 gauge shots, but the intent was he was starting to get particularly weakened after that.
The Predator would probably fair better against Ripley's grappling hook though, where the Alien clearly bleeds from. No explosive tips and point blank there. ;D
(https://i.ibb.co/mchktRZ/Project002-1-1.gif)
Yeah, not much arguing that one - it clearly damages the Big Chap, with the appearance of being a blunt end. Yay, movie consistency.
Well there is one big issue or several:
1: Who is strongest will all depend on the bias of the person/writer etc, and to fit a story, as we can see how strong/ability to take punishment shift from time to time in the same movies.
2: fictional creatures so its almost impossible to determine how strong they are, do we count only the movies, games or everything?
Im of the opinion a normal xeno drone/warrior would be able to lift and just beat a predator in strenght, like insects they are able to lift well beyond their weight. We dont see predator tearing down metal doors like the xenos, with their tech on we can see them being stronger but thats due to their tech so I dont count it.
Xenos can also take a lot of abuse and still go on.
Predator seem to depend on the story how much they can take, someone wrote it took 19mm rounds to hurt the jungle hunter and the los angeles predator could take shotgun hits and still go on.
But we saw in predator 1 that jungle hunter got injured from small 5,56mm assault rifle shells and he then struggled to run and we later see him having to operate and remove the bullet and was far from unhurt.
So 5,56mm rounds can kill them, so pulse rifle would if we take predator 1 movie as correct, be able to kill them with ease.
But then im talking from my army experience and shoting 5,56 and 7,62 and 9mm and bigger rounds on stuff and the effect xD
But in the end its up to each fan or writer etc to determine who is stronger, I vote xenomorph but im bias to them.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 11, 2022, 03:18:01 PM
Yeah, not much arguing that one - it clearly damages the Big Chap, with the appearance of being a blunt end.
The spikes around the tip aren't decorative, I always thought they were digging in.
You'd get a similar reaction shooting a Predator with it if you hit their skin. They can withstand damage but it's not like their skin is bulletproof or cut resistant.
5,56mm showed they are far from bullet prof.
Quote from: Sol on Jan 11, 2022, 01:28:20 PM
It's nuances, really. Winter Soldier is strong. Super strong. But Spider-Man is stronger. That's how I look at how Preds and Xenos should be scaled.
Sure, but in the opposite direction. Spider-Man is strong, Winter Soldier has guns. It balances.
QuoteI also measure strength in more than just one asset. Preds appear to be a bit more resilient to physical harm, being able to take weapons fire of different kinds and still literally keep going, barely showing any sign of being hindered, physically.
Strength and toughness are completely separate qualities though.
I thought the jungle hunter was limping after he got hit once.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 11, 2022, 03:08:21 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 11, 2022, 02:31:02 PM
I'd like to - theatrically - see a Predator take on the explosive tipped Pulse Rifle rounds. It seems to take literal point-blank for 19mm to do anything, and being inside the body for a 12 gauge to do anything. Granted the City Hunter keeps functioning after multiple 12 gauge shots, but the intent was he was starting to get particularly weakened after that.
The Predator would probably fair better against Ripley's grappling hook though, where the Alien clearly bleeds from. No explosive tips and point blank there. ;D
https://i.ibb.co/mchktRZ/Project002-1-1.gif
Doesn't this mean that a Hellhound can beat Big Chap? ;D
(https://s10.gifyu.com/images/gif-3809b24859c88c91e.gif)
Quote from: SiL on Jan 11, 2022, 08:57:21 PM
Quote from: Sol on Jan 11, 2022, 01:28:20 PM
It's nuances, really. Winter Soldier is strong. Super strong. But Spider-Man is stronger. That's how I look at how Preds and Xenos should be scaled.
Sure, but in the opposite direction. Spider-Man is strong, Winter Soldier has guns. It balances.
Well, if we are looking at other factors outside of physical strength, no amount of guns would help WS in a fight versus SM, due to his Spider-Sense.
The point was a Predator is more analogous to the WS than to Spider-Man, and an Alien - wall crawling and all - is more analogous to Spider-Man than to WS.
Who is this "WS" and does he have something to do with SM's disappearance?! >:(
Quote from: SiL on Jan 11, 2022, 01:12:59 AM
Not in the film at least.
It was when he was talking to Perez about Ripley's memories.
Checking the scene, yes, he says the memories are passed down at a genetic level "like their strength", but passed down from Aliens, not the host.
Yeah, I don't see what benefit there would be for the aliens to nerf their own strength by making it proportional to their hosts.
(https://i.ibb.co/G7dx0m6/kenner-aliens-vintage-1992-gorilla-alien-with-face-hugger-original-imaefrvznmtmncha-removebg-preview.png)
(https://s10.gifyu.com/images/RKag.gif)
Spoiler
jk! :laugh:
Quote from: SiL on Jan 11, 2022, 11:43:50 PM
The point was a Predator is more analogous to the WS than to Spider-Man, and an Alien - wall crawling and all - is more analogous to Spider-Man than to WS.
I think you are missing my point, actually. I just used those two as a example of how I like to see the physical strength differences a Xeno and Pred would have. Weapons, etc. doesn't have anything to do with my initial comparison.
And that is to say, me saying I believe on average a Predator should be physically stronger, is not to say i think Aliens are not strong. Just not as strong as a Pred, which circles right back to my comparison.
But your comparison was someone who can canonically lift about 10 tons vs a guy with a robot arm, which sounds like a pretty major strength discrepancy.
You also didn't explain how what we see on film suggests Aliens are weaker. They have more explicit feats of strength - strength, not durability - than Predators, such as tearing down steel doors and jumping out of two tons of molten lead.
Dillon said it was ten tons.
Strap a web shooter on it and the Alien is literally Spider-Man at this point.
Well, they do secrete something like webbing.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 12, 2022, 03:02:43 AM
But your comparison was someone who can canonically lift about 10 tons vs a guy with a robot arm, which sounds like a pretty major strength discrepancy.
Bucky was given a variant of the Super Soldier serum. At worst he's peak human shape. In most cases, including the current MCU, people with the Serum have been shown to jump 100s of feet from a airplane and safely land in the ocean, hold helicopters in place while ascending off the ground, and various other things a normal person would not be capable of.
QuoteYou also didn't explain how what we see on film suggests Aliens are weaker. They have more explicit feats of strength - strength, not durability - than Predators, such as tearing down steel doors and jumping out of two tons of molten lead.
I don't have to explain it, since I explicitly stated it was something I believed and wanted. I'm not in anyway trying to state this as fact. I also, stated how what these characters can and can't do is wildly different from project to project.
So, not sure what you actually want to happen from all of this.
I was just curious why you thought the Alien should be nerfed.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 11, 2022, 08:53:57 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 11, 2022, 03:18:01 PM
Yeah, not much arguing that one - it clearly damages the Big Chap, with the appearance of being a blunt end.
The spikes around the tip aren't decorative, I always thought they were digging in.
They're angled in the way to grip, not penetrate. Fired directly like that, it'd be the nub-looking end that'd make the impact.
Corporal Hicks confirmed for harpoongun-nut
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 12, 2022, 08:23:00 AM
They're angled in the way to grip, not penetrate. Fired directly like that, it'd be the nub-looking end that'd make the impact.
Yes, I'm saying that on impact they might swing into position to grab, allowing the gun to work by hooking or grabbing.
We see them already deploying and facing away from the point of impact. Sure, it's sci-fi and anything can happen, but I really don't think there's any intent of that there.
*and snipped. No need gents.
Alright but I'm sending Jonesey a bill for all these oversized gifs.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 12, 2022, 10:21:28 AM
We see them already deploying and facing away from the point of impact. Sure, it's sci-fi and anything can happen, but I really don't think there's any intent of that there.
Eh, it's a prime position for when it reaches its target :P
Makes sense how a blunt end sticks into anything.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 12, 2022, 11:22:41 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 12, 2022, 10:21:28 AM
We see them already deploying and facing away from the point of impact. Sure, it's sci-fi and anything can happen, but I really don't think there's any intent of that there.
Eh, it's a prime position for when it reaches its target :P
Makes sense how a blunt end sticks into anything.
I don't follow you here. It's a fairly straight trajectory with very little distance to cover. Granted, I'm hardly a grappling hook expert but I've always been under the impression that it's about the claws getting over something and getting several prongs secured under/over an edge, not embedding into something for securement.
I know that's how they typically work, I'm playing on
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 12, 2022, 10:21:28 AM
Sure, it's sci-fi and anything can happen,
Quote from: SiL on Jan 12, 2022, 04:21:35 AM
I was just curious why you thought the Alien should be nerfed.
Show me where I said that. Lol
Quote from: SiL on Jan 12, 2022, 12:26:16 PM
I know that's how they typically work, I'm playing on
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 12, 2022, 10:21:28 AM
Sure, it's sci-fi and anything can happen,
Give me a tongue face, you sarcastic bastard.
Quote from: judge death on Jan 11, 2022, 08:24:58 PM
We dont see predator tearing down metal doors like the xenos,
We see the City Hunter tear through a metal elevator door.
Quote from: judge death on Jan 11, 2022, 09:00:35 PM
I thought the jungle hunter was limping after he got hit once.
Watch Predator again. I don't think the Jungle Hunter was limping at all. And who said he was just hit once, rather than being barely hurt by many bullets?
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 11, 2022, 09:08:16 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 11, 2022, 03:08:21 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 11, 2022, 02:31:02 PM
I'd like to - theatrically - see a Predator take on the explosive tipped Pulse Rifle rounds. It seems to take literal point-blank for 19mm to do anything, and being inside the body for a 12 gauge to do anything. Granted the City Hunter keeps functioning after multiple 12 gauge shots, but the intent was he was starting to get particularly weakened after that.
The Predator would probably fair better against Ripley's grappling hook though, where the Alien clearly bleeds from. No explosive tips and point blank there. ;D
https://i.ibb.co/mchktRZ/Project002-1-1.gif
Doesn't this mean that a Hellhound can beat Big Chap? ;D
https://s10.gifyu.com/images/gif-3809b24859c88c91e.gif
You know it!!!
*that Hell-Hound is a tough little bugger*
I don't even know why there's a debate.
Wolf already showed us who is the strongest.
;D
(https://i.ibb.co/Bsb0Qzp/20220112-092903-1-1-1.gif)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 12, 2022, 02:40:48 PM
I don't even know why there's a debate.
https://i.ibb.co/Bsb0Qzp/20220112-092903-1-1-1.gif
There's really strong biases here, even with me. But, I specified my thoughts were personal head cannon and still got flak. lol
Quote from: Sol on Jan 12, 2022, 02:51:38 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 12, 2022, 02:40:48 PM
I don't even know why there's a debate.
https://i.ibb.co/Bsb0Qzp/20220112-092903-1-1-1.gif
There's really strong biases here, even with me. But, I specified my thoughts were personal head cannon and still got flak. lol
That's because Alien vs Predator dude! We can't help our personal favorite biases affect our arguments. :laugh:
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 12, 2022, 02:58:28 PM
Quote from: Sol on Jan 12, 2022, 02:51:38 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 12, 2022, 02:40:48 PM
I don't even know why there's a debate.
https://i.ibb.co/Bsb0Qzp/20220112-092903-1-1-1.gif
There's really strong biases here, even with me. But, I specified my thoughts were personal head cannon and still got flak. lol
That's because Alien vs Predator dude! We can't help our personal favorite biases affect our arguments. :laugh:
Yea. Sadly, nothing new. Where's the "why not both" gif, when I need it.
I think that's really what it all comes down to
IMO Alien should have higher natural strength and velocity while Predator's prevailance should lie in technology and hunting technics
Quote from: Sol on Jan 12, 2022, 01:08:39 PM
Show me where I said that. Lol
You think the thing that jumped out of ten tons of molten lead should be weaker than the thing which has never been seen doing anything like that show of strength, that's nerfing :P
That's what I meant by inconsistent though! Depending on the film, what these creatures do is all over the place. But I digress, I love them both, and I don't think anything human would stand a chance in Hell, trying to fight these guys unarmed and alone.
The Xeno, even in my head canon is not weak. A tour de force of power for sure.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 12, 2022, 08:01:08 PM
You think the thing that jumped out of ten tons of molten lead should be weaker than the thing which has never been seen doing anything like that show of strength, that's nerfing :P
To be fair, I would imagine that scene was intended by filmakers to showcase Runner's heat resistance not neccesarily its strength. You're supposed to go "Oh shit, it survived in that temperature !". For a layman viewer there isn't much difference between jumping out of a pool of water or molten lead in terms of physical effort it requires
Jumping out of a pool of water the way the Runner does would also be incredibly impressive.
I think Predator would be able to do that too
Show me the receipts.
Didn't the tusked predator in Predators almost tear a metal door and then stopped also ? I'm pretty sure that's the case.
I think the two should be depicted as roughly equal in strength, but the nature of their strength should be different.
With its long slender limbs and fingers, the Alien's advantage in a fight would be its leverage. The Predator would rely more on pure muscle.
The Alien's strength would be steady and unyielding. The Predator may be capable of bursts that could momentarily overpower it, but if he doesn't finish the fight quickly, he'll be in trouble.
It needs to be said, of course, that an Alien's natural weapons should mean that a Predator would never want to grapple with it. If things comes to that, the Predator has already been beaten at his own game and become the hunted.
Pretty elegant way to put it
I think whichever one mashes the X button faster should be stronger.
Predator clearly has more experience pushing buttons:
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/7af0fbe1edb568440ceaa516b05bbdca/714f4fccd8431fb5-8b/s500x750/e4d5b893c789df2c65a170132792a10a3dd49b55.gifv)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/1e751e54e4123e43ae4eca48b575a540/57ec8c985ce3d813-a8/s540x810/d2778bbeb0a52cbbb291c7f12f8121910d17a040.gifv)
Spoiler
Although:
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PlaintiveInferiorCommongonolek-size_restricted.gif)
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzg29ld3ZG1rpdvglo1_500.gif)
https://youtu.be/OgXd6Npj4ZY
The best worst thing you have ever heard
Quote from: Kradan on Apr 07, 2022, 05:26:25 PM
Predator clearly has more experience pushing buttons:
https://64.media.tumblr.com/7af0fbe1edb568440ceaa516b05bbdca/714f4fccd8431fb5-8b/s500x750/e4d5b893c789df2c65a170132792a10a3dd49b55.gifv
https://64.media.tumblr.com/1e751e54e4123e43ae4eca48b575a540/57ec8c985ce3d813-a8/s540x810/d2778bbeb0a52cbbb291c7f12f8121910d17a040.gifv
Spoiler
Although:
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PlaintiveInferiorCommongonolek-size_restricted.gif)
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzg29ld3ZG1rpdvglo1_500.gif)
https://youtu.be/UC6__HZu0Ho?t=153
To me they should be quite even:
Xenomorphs are super strong, like ants: their strenght is many times their weight, hence we see them tearing through metal doors and ships and many other materials, lifting grown man with one arm and climb with the other with ease.
Also they are surprisingly light in my eyes which would explain the queen alien beeing not too hard to knock over with power loader and ripley later in the airlock.
Which would explain predators have a fighting chance in close combat.
Predators are more like super body builders and strong but also quite heavy and clumsy in comparison to the xeno, predator can lift 1-2 xenomorphs and throw them but in pure strenght vs strenght mode the xeno would win, especielly if we count the older warrior xenos or predaliens.
Predators strenght is more their technology and close combat weapons.
Without that the xenomorphs will beat them in hand to hand fight.
I've always seen the Xenomorphs as living machines, they're strength, like mentioned earlier in the thread would be unwavering and steady. The comparisons to bugs have always been present, but I feel that they'd be more akin to spiders. Spiders move using a combination of hydraulic fluid and muscle flex. This would make them insanely strong , yet fairly lightweight.
Predators however, shouldn't be as strong in my opinion. Wolf should NEVER been able to hold back both of the xenos in the sewers. Their physique is purely organic and with that comes endurance limitations. If I recall correctly there were some comics(novels?) That mention a steroid injection unit somewhere in their armor that sets them into a berserk frenzy which could temporarily bypass the natural endurance blocks, similar to humans who while under adrenaline rushes perform superhuman feats
Both are strong, but I think an Alien should be stronger. They're the perfect natural weapon and need to be a formidable opponent for a hunter to engage.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Apr 07, 2022, 05:45:08 PMhttps://youtu.be/OgXd6Npj4ZY
The best worst thing you have ever heard
I prefer the Starship Troopers and Evil Dead ones.
I think the Predators should be stronger... because they are lol. After seeing Prey 2022 and reading the comics, I can clearly say without a doubt the Yautja have accomplished much greater feats of strength. This is just my opinion of course though, take It how you will. Just know I have seen every alien film hundreds of times and read most of the alien comics as well, there was never an instance in any medium where a Xenomorph lifted anything as heavy as a bear or thrown around something as heavy as a bear like in Prey or a bison like in Predator homeworld which are 2000 pound animals. Not counting things the queen can do, the greatest feat I have seen is Grid lifting a Predator which are over 500 pounds.
The Predator breakout scene from TP is a good example of how dangerous they can be in a weakened state and without their traditional weapons at hand. Super strong and still brutal. I'd love to see how an Alien would react to getting punched by a Pred like Feral.
I think Predators should be stronger than certain Xenos and vice versa.
Predators being stronger than runners makes sense, but I don't think they should be stronger than warriors.
A well-armed Pred with decent hunting experience should have a major advantage over an Alien.
It helps tremendously that they have technology, including a vision mode which highlights an Alien's entire body in glowing green. This doesn't get emphasised enough I think.
Adolescent Celtic was missing a shoulder cannon and acid-resistant gear. Being inexperienced, he took his time trying to savour the kill when he should've hurried to finish his foe before the net dissolved.
The Alien is the superior natural weapon by far. With the right equipment, odds swing back heavily in favour of the Predator. A highly claustrophobic environment, more navigable by the Alien than the Pred and limiting the Pred's range, evens it out.
Not a bad assessment, the Alien uses the environment better and once it get's into engaged range, Alien wins. If the Pred can spot the sneaky buggers and keep them at a distance, they can win.
A question would be how one alien would operate against Dutch and his team in the jungle setting from the original Predator film.
Quote from: Huntsman on Aug 17, 2022, 04:24:15 AMA question would be how one alien would operate against Dutch and his team in the jungle setting from the original Predator film.
Jim Hopper's team would have killed it and Dutch's team would have never been sent in. I think the Aliens are vastly overrated against well-armed soldiers with no reason not to shoot them.
The Alien would attack at night and pick the team off one by one.
The team would quickly work out what was going on and stay awake to blow it to pieces.
Of course, it could have turned a team member into an egg in the meantime, which could infect the local wildlife. The commandos would be fine -- any animal large enough to be a host, not so much.
The invisiblity cloak is a huge advantage for a Predator, especially in the heat of the jungle. Same goes with attacking at a distance with a plasmacaster and other ranged weapons. I agree an Alien would have to be even more stealthy as it would 100% need to get in close to kill.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Aug 17, 2022, 05:41:58 AMQuote from: Huntsman on Aug 17, 2022, 04:24:15 AMA question would be how one alien would operate against Dutch and his team in the jungle setting from the original Predator film.
Jim Hopper's team would have killed it and Dutch's team would have never been sent in. I think the Aliens are vastly overrated against well-armed soldiers with no reason not to shoot it.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Aug 15, 2022, 07:44:15 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Aug 15, 2022, 07:27:46 PMI still maintain that, had it not been for that "comedy of errors," the marines would have slaughtered the aliens.
See that does not make them threatening to me though, or the film that exciting upon rewatch either, if any narrative involving the military requires people to mess up over and over again for the Aliens to have a shot?
Give me Aliens versus the military again but this time doing everything right and still taking causalities and then you have my money.
In the case of lv-426 even with no errors I dont see how the marines would been able to go in and kill the xenomorphs in the atmosphere processor. They cant nuke it, due to they are there to save the colony and destroying it is out of question.
Walk in with guns is out of the question. Flamethrowers is none lethal to the adult xenos.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Aug 17, 2022, 10:59:26 AMSee that does not make them threatening to me though, or the film that exciting upon rewatch either, if any narrative involving the military requires people to mess up over and over again for the Aliens to have a shot?
Give me Aliens versus the military again but this time doing everything right and still taking causalities and then you have my money.
I'm not suggesting the military would take zero casualties, but I don't think the Aliens would be able to overcome the clear lopsidedness of going up against a military with powerful ranged weapons. You'd have to turn them into bullet sponges and I'd hate that.
Or by making them even smarter and extending the range of the acid spitting and making it so the hive in of itself works as a military mechanism, imagine it generating fog, or having sacs affixed to the walls filled with acid, or them traveling through subterraneous tunnels they create.
At some point you're going to have accept that the Aliens just aren't well-suited to ranged warfare. You can invent as many boobytraps in their hives as you want, but that only works against infantry and only if they're stupid enough to sacrifice their advantage by entering said hives.
How are the Aliens supposed to deal with artillery or air strikes? Not to mention orbital bombardments and nukes.
By spreading to places you do not want to bombard or just burrowing underground.
Gotta find the hole first.
Have the Aliens ever demonstrated this fabulous burrowing ability in any of the movies?
Not yet. But they did in Aliens Phalanx, as a "Oh f**k." moment when they started burrowing into their holds, narratively it works for the Alien without developing power creep by making up an "Alien King" or any of that bigger means better nonsense.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Aug 17, 2022, 08:00:22 PMHave the Aliens ever demonstrated this fabulous burrowing ability in any of the movies?
I never said anything about them digging their own.
Quote from: SM on Nov 08, 2016, 07:54:57 PMIf you're willing to go scorched earth - to people and infrastructure - there's very little the Aliens could do.
That was a good thread. Also, SM didn't seem to think the Aliens can recognize vital infrastructure.
Big if.
True, which is why they'd probably try containment first if the Aliens nested somewhere that the military was unwilling to sacrifice. Starving them of hosts would be an option.
Mines and sentry guns would be useful there.
I doubt you would have any luck waiting them out.
Okay. Let them venture outside of their safe zone and see what happens.
If we follow the comics they can indeed use tunnels and underground bunkers as nests and they also shown ability to dig tunnels and make nests underground, as well as surface egg silos/hives amongst several different style of hives.
I agree with SM that the hive resin is a living thing of itself, its likely like aliens extinction releases spores that make it possible for the xenos to track humans that has been inside the hive, and allows them to communicate from one end of the hive to the other, making it possible to move xenos around for surprise attacks.
So sneaking inside without being discovered is unlikely.
Removing hosts and wait them out: we know from novels, movies and comics they hibernate for pretty much eternity so they wont starve to death and they arent stupid so they wont just walk in front of the sentry guns without enough numbers or a reason to do it, most likely they would just find a new way out or create one.
Quote from: judge death on Aug 17, 2022, 09:04:38 PMI agree with SM that the hive resin is a living thing of itself, its likely like aliens extinction releases spores that make it possible for the xenos to track humans that has been inside the hive, and allows them to communicate from one end of the hive to the other, making it possible to move xenos around for surprise attacks.
So sneaking inside without being discovered is unlikely.
Interesting, and IIRC eggs (or Ovomorphs) are living things too.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 17, 2022, 09:08:11 PMQuote from: judge death on Aug 17, 2022, 09:04:38 PMI agree with SM that the hive resin is a living thing of itself, its likely like aliens extinction releases spores that make it possible for the xenos to track humans that has been inside the hive, and allows them to communicate from one end of the hive to the other, making it possible to move xenos around for surprise attacks.
So sneaking inside without being discovered is unlikely.
Interesting, and IIRC eggs (or Ovomorphs) are living things too.
Yep, I agree on their eggs arent eggs but a living thing thats purpose is to keep the facehugger alive and hibernate until a host is nearby and then wake up and release the facehugger. Its tendrils it grows is what it uses to nurture itself. Hence they can open and close their petal opening.
Seem to have sensors that feel heat and movement from hosts, but no inteligence to speak of.
Quote from: judge death on Aug 17, 2022, 09:04:38 PMRemoving hosts and wait them out: we know from novels, movies and comics they hibernate for pretty much eternity so they wont starve to death
A bit hyperbolic. Outside of the queen in AvP (which was preserved through technological means) when have we ever seen an Alien hibernate for so long?
Quote from: judge death on Aug 17, 2022, 09:04:38 PMand they arent stupid so they wont just walk in front of the sentry guns without enough numbers or a reason to do it, most likely they would just find a new way out or create one.
They walked in front of sentry guns in Aliens. Unless what you're suggesting is that they know about the sentry guns in advance. But then we should also assume that the human military is fully aware of what the Aliens can do as well.
It ups the stakes and ups the tension and quality by proxy I think.
What does?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Aug 17, 2022, 09:16:49 PMOutside of the queen in AvP (which was preserved through technological means) when have we ever seen an Alien hibernate for so long?
We see several cases in games, novels and comics. In the novel out of the shadows they have been hibernating for hundreds of years, in the comics we see several times of them hibernating from 20 years up to 100 years and some cases that indicate even longer.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Aug 17, 2022, 09:16:49 PMThey walked in front of sentry guns in Aliens.
Two reasons:
1: they didnt know what sentry guns was and they had the numbers for going for a human wave tactic that we see humans use in attacks against strongholds in ww2 up to even today, they thought they could easily attack them headon, which they did first time but the bulkhead/gate stopped them. Second time they realised their losses were too high and changed plans and adapted and now seeks ways around, learning like the xenos in resurrection did.
To me its clear they learned their lesson and changed tactics.
2: they had a large number of xenos and trying to attack headon made sense from tactical position especielly based on the marines performance earlier in their hive where their weapons wasnt that effective.
Oh, I fully acknowledge that the Aliens can eventually win if they just Zerg rush the military if said military is only a few soldiers that are rapidly running out of ammo.
A well-supplied and prepared military is going to be a different story. Of course, that would also make for a pretty boring movie, unless you happen to have a military fetish like Michael Bay.
After they know about sentry guns and their weapons will then adapt their tactics to that scenario. :)
When they're in a crossover film, yeah. That's exactly what PWS Anderson wanted to do - bulkier Predators because they were fighting Aliens, sharp-clawed Aliens because they were fighting Predators
Quote from: judge death on Aug 17, 2022, 09:35:42 PMAfter they know about sentry guns and their weapons will then adapt their tactics to that scenario. :)
Easy to say, but tactics have limits. Look, I understand this temptation to ascribe some sort of magical bogeyman powers to the Aliens, but it's also worth pointing out that at the end of every movie THEY LOST.
The Aliens are far from invincible.
Far from invisible and in normal range fight they will lose in 9/10 times but that is if they play ball and do that, in the military we have a saying: dont do what the enemy expect or want you to, get them to play your rules. Like in ww2: facing a tiger tank frontally at open terrain is suicide, use terrain and get close and flank it, or close enough that AP can penetrate its front, neglect/remove its advantages.
Im pretty sure xenomorphs will avoid open range battles as well and use different tactics like underground tunnels etc think vietename style.
Likely will win but it will be a long fight Im sure. IF it is a world wide ifnestation I cant say how it would end.
To quote scripture:
Quote from: SM on Oct 09, 2012, 01:28:12 AMThe Alien isn't immortal or omnipotent.
Amen.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Aug 17, 2022, 09:21:56 PMWhat does?
More competent going up against the more competent to put it simply.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Aug 17, 2022, 05:41:58 AMQuote from: Huntsman on Aug 17, 2022, 04:24:15 AMA question would be how one alien would operate against Dutch and his team in the jungle setting from the original Predator film.
Jim Hopper's team would have killed it and Dutch's team would have never been sent in. I think the Aliens are vastly overrated against well-armed soldiers with no reason not to shoot them.
The jungle terrain wouldn't be a great environment for an Alien. They need dark shafts and tunnels.
The Alien would lack the key tools Jungle Hunter had...ranged pressure and cloaking.
Or they hide until night time.
Night is better than day, but Dutch's team can counter even at night, which is what you're saying below, I think
Quote from: SiL on Aug 17, 2022, 06:39:56 AMThe Alien would attack at night and pick the team off one by one.
The team would quickly work out what was going on and stay awake to blow it to pieces.
Of course, it could have turned a team member into an egg in the meantime, which could infect the local wildlife. The commandos would be fine -- any animal large enough to be a host, not so much.
If it was more than one Alien, and they were attacking at night, I don't think the team would fare too well.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Aug 17, 2022, 07:15:10 PMAt some point you're going to have accept that the Aliens just aren't well-suited to ranged warfare. You can invent as many boobytraps in their hives as you want, but that only works against infantry and only if they're stupid enough to sacrifice their advantage by entering said hives.
How are the Aliens supposed to deal with artillery or air strikes? Not to mention orbital bombardments and nukes.
This is the problem with questions of this sort in general though.
Who has more stnreght?
Put a naked Predator and a naked Alien in a room together. The alien is going to outclass the Predator every time. It is born with everything it needs to kill. The Predator is not.
Before anyone accuses me of bias, I am one of those fans who is equally in love with both characters.
A fully armed Predator, and an Alien, in that same situation? Odds favor the Predator. The Alien has nowhere to hide and stage an ambush, and the Predator has weapons capable of taking the alien out from a distance One thing seldom commented on the Plasma weapons fuse/carterize wounds... Meaning alien acid in those situations should be minimal.
And then you can expand the variables even further by changing the environment. Jungle? Desert? Colony? Gigerscape?
And then we get into Predator personality, age. Who would be more suited to dealing with alien(s) Jungle, City, Wolf, Mr. Black, Feral?
Quote from: judge death on Jan 11, 2022, 08:55:59 PM5,56mm showed they are far from bullet prof.
556 can penetrate steel plates. It's designed to take a target out of action *snaps*.
Here's the thing where the aliens are concerned. They are remarkably fast at regeneration. This is one advantage they *clearly* have over the Predator. Jungle Hunter had to take a time out after Mac grazed him with his M60, to pinch off his bleeding wound. An alien in that situation would likely have retreated just long enough to acquire a new attack angle.
Keeping all the EU, games, etc out of the discussion and going by the cream of the crop, that is Alien, Aliens, Predator, and Predator 2. For raw physical strength the alien outpaces the Predator. The Predator's equipment gives them the clear advantage in many situations, though. Then comes, again, the question of Predator personality. How smart, egotistical, experienced, what gear do they have, etc?
If it's just a general fantasy football question I think you can come up with any answer that you ultimately want... But I think entertaning cinema requires that the aliens be at least a moderate threat to the predators otherwise there is no tension. AvsPR could be mildly entertaining if not for the fact that Wolf basically walks through all of the aliens he encounters. One alien manages to get one good smack on him, but its not even the alien that causes the injury, it's a piece of scenery. That's utterly boring in my view.
This topic reminds me of a line from the original Alien vs. Predator comic series.
"...invisibility has little meaning to creatures with no eyes"
Quote from: Chieftain Suom on Sep 20, 2022, 08:35:34 PMThis topic reminds me of a line from the original Alien vs. Predator comic series.
"...invisibility has little meaning to creatures with no eyes"
I love that. When you consider the technology Predators have, Aliens basically have it all themselves naturally except for ranged weapons.
The thing that should be interesting about hunting Aliens for Predators is that Aliens are better hunters than them, with no training and no technology.
That's the real thrill, the real challenge, and the real thing that's impressive about beating one.
Anyone can shoot an Alien, but out-hunting one is actual achievement.
It's neat I just realized the aliens mirror the marine situation in their two assaults on the Marines in operations.
The aliens go into a "nest" so to speak and run into a massively powerful enemy they don't have a physical ability to deal with in those confines.
If you arbitrarily put the alien on a flat battlefield versus a squad of marines, they are going to get pasted every time. If there is cover, darkness, structures etc, then the battle is going to be more even, but most of the time once the marines have eyes on the enemy, the M41 is going to sing. The tension in Aliens is in the zerg rush and low ammo situation in claustrophobic conditions.
What would be interesting to see on film, is a single alien realizing it doesn't have the hive to rely on, and knowing this, it is smart enough to change it's approach from a zerg rush to the more methodical and stealthy ambush tactics like in Alien. Like if there was a squad vs 10 aliens the aliens instinctually rush the target, not realizing they will all get cut down, but the lone alien already knows it has to be way more cautious for the sake of propagating the hive.
Quote from: happypred on Aug 23, 2022, 07:48:38 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Aug 17, 2022, 05:41:58 AMQuote from: Huntsman on Aug 17, 2022, 04:24:15 AMA question would be how one alien would operate against Dutch and his team in the jungle setting from the original Predator film.
Jim Hopper's team would have killed it and Dutch's team would have never been sent in. I think the Aliens are vastly overrated against well-armed soldiers with no reason not to shoot them.
The jungle terrain wouldn't be a great environment for an Alien. They need dark shafts and tunnels.
The Alien would lack the key tools Jungle Hunter had...ranged pressure and cloaking.
In fairness, the Alien could simply just make that enviroment for themselves by making webs and other hive structures between the trees. Of course, such a nest would stick out like soar thumb.
Jungle brush is a whole other world. Their visibility is mostly just a few meters. It's not the trees they would have to worry about with the Alien. Its the ground.
Even in West Virginia, the vegetation gets incredibly thick on the ground outside of game trails or off of managed land.