The Neomorphs

Started by Corporal Hicks, Oct 21, 2016, 09:27:05 AM

Author
The Neomorphs (Read 88,474 times)

fiveways

fiveways

#225
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Oct 27, 2016, 08:45:26 PM
Quote from: System Apollo on Oct 27, 2016, 08:43:48 PMAnd what is with this "Fifield and Milburn are not realistic scientists" nonsense that is always considered one of the most critical aspects of the film?

Because they're supposed to be expert scientists. That's literally the only reason they are brought along. So having them act like morons is ridiculous.

I always felt if you add in the deleted scenes they work better as characters since they provide at least a touch of justification for their actions.  They still work shit as scientists, but for me I am not sure that matters as I am firmly on the "don't let science get in the way of telling a good story" side of the argument.  Not that Prometheus is a great story, still..

Prometheus's main fault was really really shitty editing and them moving around scenes late in the day.  It feels like a most constructed mostly in post.  There is actually a really good movie in there, you can see traces of it when you re-watch it.  I need to sit down with the fan edits sometime.  I also don't know how much control Scott had of the editing stage.  The way most of the action sequences looked to play out, it was gonna be first half mood, second half action beats like the original Alien.  Does Fox think a movie with that kinda budget would sell in 2012 or did they move scenes around the have something exciting happen every 10 minutes to "keep the audiences attention" (as we all know studios really get off on talking down to their audience in 201X.  I also understand that maybe these cues play better to certain international markets)

The script writer should have been consulting with an expert on what they would do on an alien planet.  What they would point out.  This is why you hired science consultants.  Just, no one cared.  They are fodder to move the story forward, and I am typically ok with that is you set up and justify their insane actions at least a touch.

The other factor is writing scientists as scientist doesn't put asses in the seats.  In the end the market that cares about that is an insanely small fraction of the movie going populous.  I often wonder if writers are actively told to avoid these sorts of things.  Like if it is on a list of producers notes they have during re-write time.  We often forget that when a re-write comes it carries a set of demands from various people involved with the production with it.  Often these ideas are completely insane egomaniac pieces so people can feel like the have actively given to the film. 

You can also make a convincing argument that Prometheus had way too many characters with screen time, and a lot of those could have been severely downplayed to make more room for plot.  Easily half the scientist could have become grunts and no one would have noticed, sadly in my opinion the captain couple and the entire crew could fall into the remove pile (to me, other i know will disagree).  More time could have been spent with the core group of characters and getting to know them, and just use the rest as goo bait and monster fodder.

I am still looking forward to the new designs and new ideas.  Honestly, it can't be worse than Alien: Resurrection, or either of the AVP movies.  I have passing faith in the film being at least a fun sci-fi horror romp, and really that is all i want out of it.  I don't expect to see another "Alien" being produced by a major studio in my lifetime.  Maybe something indie will catch that vibe sometimes.  Just, Hollywood doesn't make those movies, and hasn't in a very long time.  If the reported 150-200 million dollar budget is true, than zero risks will be taken. Still, I am keen on seeing the new designs in motion (I'm trying to bring this back to the subject the thread is on as we are all gloriously off topic)

BishopShouldGo

BishopShouldGo

#226
The movie sounds like a risk to me. Dark, gory, R-rated, no stars(not even Fassbender), expensive. It has the Alien name and Ridley to ride off of.

SiL

SiL

#227
Fassbender is a star.

System Apollo

System Apollo

#228
QuoteI often wonder if writers are actively told to avoid these sorts of things.  Like if it is on a list of producers notes they have during re-write time.  We often forget that when a re-write comes it carries a set of demands from various people involved with the production with it.  Often these ideas are completely insane egomaniac pieces so people can feel like the have actively given to the film. 

You are spot on. Producers are difficult to work with and your egocentric comment really takes it home. That is precisely what studios do if not checked by someone with a central vision.

Pvt. Himmel

Pvt. Himmel

#229
I wonder if Fassie caught hell from Ridley for the slip of the tongue?? :laugh:

426Buddy

426Buddy

#230
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Oct 28, 2016, 12:40:56 AM
The movie sounds like a risk to me. Dark, gory, R-rated, no stars(not even Fassbender), expensive. It has the Alien name and Ridley to ride off of.

All that sounds great to me.

But Fassbender is a star.

Necronomicon II

Necronomicon II

#231
This is not a defence of their characterisations, but I don't think it follows that Milburn or Fifield were the best in their fields as I don't think any credible Scientist would accept an invitation to travel light-years into space without a single inkling as to why, no matter how handsomely they were payed in advance.
Ideally you would want nothing but the best in their field, but lest we forget the whole expedition was funded  by a dying megalomaniac in a desperate bid to extend his life so time was of the essence, corners were cut. Come to think of it, Weyland is like...Mr. Burns lol

Again, it would have been MUCH better if they were more credible as far as audience investment goes, as there are several intelligent ways to portray human foolishness and hubris without characters just acting like utter morons, regardless if that was a deliberate scripting choice.
And I don't think anyone wanted a dark-comedy per se. I can overlook most of it because Fassbender is just so good in every scene, and being juxtaposed against human morons makes him all the more sympathetic. Frankly he should have been the main character. 


Re the Martian and Watney not knowing Mars had soil, I don't quite follow, the book does go into much more detail but he knew exactly what he needed to do to make viable biomass via Martian soil, such as leaching out the perchlorates in the soil and separating them from the water.

System Apollo

System Apollo

#232
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Oct 28, 2016, 04:47:48 AM
This is not a defence of their characterisations, but I don't think it follows that Milburn or Fifield were the best in their fields as I don't think any credible Scientist would accept an invitation to travel light-years into space without a single inkling as to why, no matter how handsomely they were payed in advance.
Ideally you would want nothing but the best in their field, but lest we forget the whole expedition was funded  by a dying megalomaniac in a desperate bid to extend his life so time was of the essence, corners were cut. Come to think of it, Weyland is like...Mr. Burns lol

Again, it would have been MUCH better if they were more credible as far as audience investment goes, as there are several intelligent ways to portray human foolishness and hubris without characters just acting like utter morons, regardless if that was a deliberate scripting choice.
And I don't think anyone wanted a dark-comedy per se. I can overlook most of it because Fassbender is just so good in every scene, and being juxtaposed against human morons makes him all the more sympathetic. Frankly he should have been the main character. 


Re the Martian and Watney not knowing Mars had soil, I don't quite follow, the book does go into much more detail but he knew exactly what he needed to do to make viable biomass via Martian soil, such as leaching out the perchlorates in the soil and separating them from the water.
FIRST PARAGRAPH:
Precisely, what do we know of the scientists beyond them being claimed they were the top in their field? Why would these scientists accept an offer to travel in a spaceship for a job they know nothing of? Sounds desperate and if you were top in your field you would not be desperate.

SECOND PARAGRAPH
That is why I consider weighing the film down based on Fifield and Milburn's incident as nonsense. It did not make sense in the grand scheme of things to begin with.

THIRD PARAGRAPH:
And then substituting the needed fertalizer with his own shit?
He also would have needed to extract suitable soil from dust.
Soil which is generally rare on Mars.

Necronomicon II

Necronomicon II

#233
Yeah human faeces is a stretch but it's still plausible, because to paraphrase Andy Weir the crew's waste was completely desiccated, freeze-dried, and then dumped out on the surface of Mars and bagged, any pathogens in there would have been dead. Yeah it would certainly prove a difficult process, but Martian soil differs mostly with terrestrial soil in the amount of perchlorates, and its pH is a basic 8.3.
Plenty of Scientists have fact-checked it and it falls within the bounds of plausibility.   

HuDaFuK

HuDaFuK

#234
Quote from: System Apollo on Oct 27, 2016, 09:47:10 PMAs for them not knowing doesn't excuse them stepping out for the expedition.

They had suits to deal with an inhospitable stratosphere.

The stupidity starts when everyone brazenly takes their helmet off for the lulz.

Quote from: System Apollo on Oct 27, 2016, 09:47:10 PMBut to step out of the security of the ship and jump onto the terrain of an unknown planet to an unknown architecture which belongs to an unknown intelligent lifeform?

Potentially risky exploration is how most of the world was discovered. There's a big jump from that to petting a hitherto undiscovered alien lifeform that's seemingly acting aggressively because you think it's cute. Especially if your supposed to be an expert in fauna.

One is a hazard of the job, the other is going out of your way to be an idiot.

Quote from: System Apollo on Oct 27, 2016, 10:08:47 PMYet the plain stupidity was the cinematic flair needed to propel the plot in this circumstance.

No, relying on characters making unrealistically moronic decisions to propel the plot is simply bad plotting.

Alien managed to achieve what it wanted without ever inducing the audience to scream, "Why are you such a f*cking moron?!" at the screen.

It's not that they characters are dumb, it's that they're so dumb I can't believe for even one moment that you'd spend millions, billions, trillions on sending an expedition to the farthest reaches of known space to potentially make first contact with intelligent alien life, and then crew the ship with such a bunch of retards. It completely undermines the entire movie for me.

I mean, the crew of the Nostromo were exponentially smarter than these guys and they were just blue-collar truckers.

Quote from: fiveways on Oct 28, 2016, 12:33:54 AMI always felt if you add in the deleted scenes they work better as characters since they provide at least a touch of justification for their actions.

This. Unfortunately by deleting all of those moments the scientists come across as utterly incompetent f*ckwits.

Johnny Handsome

Johnny Handsome

#235
Quote from: SiL on Oct 28, 2016, 12:42:45 AM
Fassbender is a star.
He is a damn fine actor and all, but besides X-Men everything he's been in the last years tanked pretty hard.

Star? Maybe
Box office draw? Absolutely no.

In that aspect, BishopShouldGo is absolutely right.

Whiskeybrewer

Whiskeybrewer

#236
Quote from: Himmelblau on Oct 28, 2016, 01:02:31 AM
I wonder if Fassie caught hell from Ridley for the slip of the tongue?? :laugh:

Probably got his head ripped off again lol

Corporal Hicks

Corporal Hicks

#237
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Oct 28, 2016, 10:48:15 AM
Quote from: Himmelblau on Oct 28, 2016, 01:02:31 AM
I wonder if Fassie caught hell from Ridley for the slip of the tongue?? :laugh:

Probably got his head ripped off again lol

It wouldn't have been so bad had we not known about the name and some details from the film. lol. On it's own, it's an innocent enough thing to just let slip.

fiveways

fiveways

#238
Quote from: System Apollo on Oct 28, 2016, 12:56:51 AM
QuoteI often wonder if writers are actively told to avoid these sorts of things.  Like if it is on a list of producers notes they have during re-write time.  We often forget that when a re-write comes it carries a set of demands from various people involved with the production with it.  Often these ideas are completely insane egomaniac pieces so people can feel like the have actively given to the film. 

You are spot on. Producers are difficult to work with and your egocentric comment really takes it home. That is precisely what studios do if not checked by someone with a central vision.

The question is at what budget point does a singular creative force get overridden?  If you asked me when i wrote my original post late last night I would have had a different answer heh.

After the leaks today, I am sure Scott is getting 100% reign on this production.  Last time we all know that they were gunning for a PG-13 and missed due to one scene (why they didn't edit back in stuff after failing to get that rating I will never understand, like the Shaw/Engineer showdown).  Thank god for Deadpool showing FOX that Hard R movies still have a market and make money.

𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔈𝔦𝔤𝔥𝔱𝔥 𝔓𝔞𝔰𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔤𝔢𝔯

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Oct 28, 2016, 10:57:34 AM
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Oct 28, 2016, 10:48:15 AM
Quote from: Himmelblau on Oct 28, 2016, 01:02:31 AM
I wonder if Fassie caught hell from Ridley for the slip of the tongue?? :laugh:

Probably got his head ripped off again lol

It wouldn't have been so bad had we not known about the name and some details from the film. lol. On it's own, it's an innocent enough thing to just let slip.

Agreed, Fassbender just slipped a name that's all. Although I saw some places reporting that Fassbender gave away all those details that you actually dug-up.

Anyway, Riddles and Fassie are thick as thieves. I really don't think he would have copped any flack for that little slip.

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