https://twitter.com/slashfilm/status/1337188105405648897
https://twitter.com/yvrshoots/status/1512887871757164546
Its been a while since I read James Clavell's original novel. But I do remember the 1980 TV version with Richard Chamberlain and Toshiro Mifune was classic. If anyone can remotely compare to Mifune, it would be Hiroyuki Sanada, so at least they seem to cast the part of Toranaga Yoshii right with Sanada.
Clavell's novel was remarkable for its time in how it accurately nailed down that particular history of Japan, the Sengoku period, when the country was torn by warring daimyos (warlords), each commanding their own army of samurai clan, vying to gain supeme power and re-unite the country.
https://twitter.com/FXNetworks/status/1729862789005549733
Quote from: ace3g on Jan 24, 2024, 12:48:44 AMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPL80Xqc_f4
The 1980 NBC adapation focused more on Chamberlain's character, Blackthorne, and his perspective and neglected the Japanese characters. It was ages ago since I read the novel (It took me a long time read it, it was over a 1000 pages long, but you don't feel its length, because it is such a gripping page-turner). But I do remember the novel by contrasted focused a lot more on the motivations, power struggles and machinations of the Japanese characters. In that sense it has a certain "Game of Thrones" vibe to it (rumor has it that George R.R Martin developed some inspiration for his GOT novels from Shogun).We'll see if this latest TV adaptation does justice to the Japanese characters in Shogun.
Behind-the-scenes feature of the FX series is released:
Can it stand on its own as an adaptation or will it live in the shadow of the 1980 series?
You think there's a big fanbase for a mini-series from 44 years ago?
Quote from: SM on Feb 07, 2024, 03:15:47 AMYou think there's a big fanbase for a mini-series from 44 years ago?
Where did I say there was? Making stuff up again are we?
Doesn't matter whether there is a big fanbase or not, the point is, the 1980 series exist and some will always compared to that 1980 series whether you like it or not.
My but aren't we touchy.
If there isn't big fanbase (putting aside people who didn't know or forgot it even existed) then it's not likely to live in any shadow. One would think.
Asking if it will live in the original's shadow does imply that the original is big enough and well known enough to be casting a shadow.
Quote from: SM on Feb 07, 2024, 04:15:10 AMMy but aren't we touchy.
If there isn't big fanbase (putting aside people who didn't know or forgot it even existed) then it's not likely to live in any shadow. One would think.
Well you do seem to have a habit of reading comprehension problems.
There are devoted fans of the 1980 series, whether you can think that is a big "fanbase" or not is irrelevant to me. But because the Richard Chamberlain version has a following, some will always point out the differences between the two adaptations, for better or worse.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 07, 2024, 04:17:09 AMAsking if it will live in the original's shadow does imply that the original is big enough and well known enough to be casting a shadow.
You are implying stuff that is not there, as usual. There is following to the 1980 series, whether its big or small is immaterial. The important thing is that it will be compared to the 1980 series. That in turn will lead more people to look into the comparison.
Of course, if you want to stir this up into a troll fight, I can always have a chat with the mod about you.
The Shogun 1980 miniseries fanbase has been engaged.
Quote from: SM on Feb 07, 2024, 04:20:35 AMThe Shogun 1980 miniseries fanbase has been engaged.
And some are definitely not liking this FX adaptation.
I'm going to follow them along with 43 other people on Facebook and see what they say when it comes out. Maybe they'll post something for the first time in 11 years.
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100066504790774
Quote from: SM on Feb 07, 2024, 04:27:12 AMI'm going to follow them along with 43 other people on Facebook and see what they say when it comes out. Maybe they'll post something for the first time in 11 years.
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100066504790774
That facebook group is hardly the definitive site for fans of the 1980 series. Clearly you don't seem to know enough about the fans of the 1980 series.
Quote from: SM on Feb 07, 2024, 04:20:35 AMThe Shogun 1980 miniseries fanbase has been engaged.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZiPXuac.jpeg)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 07, 2024, 04:36:11 AMQuote from: SM on Feb 07, 2024, 04:20:35 AMThe Shogun 1980 miniseries fanbase has been engaged.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZiPXuac.jpeg)
You look funny in that photo. Have you actually typed any post of value on this forum? I have to wonder... ;D
I take great pride in never having posted anything of value in this forum.
Quote from: Cougerboy on Feb 07, 2024, 04:17:57 AMThere is following to the 1980 series, whether its big or small is immaterial.
It's really not if we're talking about it living in its shadow. The only people for whom it would be in a shadow is that fanbase -- which is quite small, and not really worth worrying about how they compare the two.
Something like Alien or Predator or Star Wars casts shadows because they're still in the public conscience.
Something like
Shogun is something I wouldn't even know existed if one of my brothers wasn't such a fan of the book.
At worst we might worry it ends up being just as forgotten as the original miniseries (which, from memory, I quite enjoyed, but completely forgot existed until this thread came up).
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 07, 2024, 04:43:28 AMI take great pride in never having posted anything of value in this forum.
Which is why I like poking you. ;D
Quote from: SiL on Feb 07, 2024, 04:43:56 AMAt worst we might worry it ends up being just as forgotten as the original miniseries (which, from memory, I quite enjoyed, but completely forgot existed until this thread came up).
I frequently lose sleep worrying about them remaking The Thorn Birds.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 07, 2024, 04:43:56 AMQuote from: Cougerboy on Feb 07, 2024, 04:17:57 AMThere is following to the 1980 series, whether its big or small is immaterial.
It's really not if we're talking about it living in its shadow. The only people for whom it would be in a shadow is that fanbase -- which is quite small, and not really worth worrying about how they compare the two.
Something like Alien or Predator or Star Wars casts shadows because they're still in the public conscience.
Something like Shogun is something I wouldn't even know existed if one of my brothers wasn't such a fan of the book.
At worst we might worry it ends up being just as forgotten as the original miniseries (which, from memory, I quite enjoyed, but completely forgot existed until this thread came up).
The 1980 series...was a byproduct of course of the Shogun the novel's popularity. The book can't be compared to Star Wars or Predator, obviously in terms of fanbase size. But it does have a devoted and passionate following. Its easy to forget now, but when the novel first came out in the mid 70's it had a huge impact on Western popular understanding of Japan. Remember, this was a time when Japan economy was zooming upwards. Japanese products were hitting Western markets, whether in terms of cars (Toyota, Honda etc) or consumer electronics (i.e. Sony Walkman), as a result, the West took an increased interest in Japan's history and culture. And Shogun was the perfect entry to that world for many of them.
There was a survey taken in the early 80's in a Japanese history college course, and most students took that course because they read Shogun.
So you may say it won't matter, but to some the comparison do matter a lot.
Quote from: Cougerboy on Feb 07, 2024, 04:49:16 AMRemember, this was a time when Japan economy was zooming upwards.
You're not gonna give Kissinger props for that too, are you? He was way too young to be responsible for bombing Japan into an era of economic prosperity.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 07, 2024, 04:55:12 AMQuote from: Cougerboy on Feb 07, 2024, 04:49:16 AMRemember, this was a time when Japan economy was zooming upwards.
You're not gonna give Kissinger props for that too, are you? He was way too young to be responsible for bombing Japan into an era of economic prosperity.
Hehehe, you clearly have no clue about Japanese history. Why am I not surprised one bit... :laugh:
Wait, don't tell me, Japan economy boomed because you went over there to make everything work right? :laugh:
I saw The Last Samurai three times! >:(
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 07, 2024, 05:00:02 AMI saw The Last Samurai three times! >:(
Hahaha. Tom Cruise, well...hehehe. ;D
Besides, the Last Samurai was set at the start of the Meiji period when the samurai's class rank was abolished and over 200 years after "Shogun" the novel's events.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 07, 2024, 05:00:02 AMI saw The Last Samurai three times! >:(
Memoirs of a Geisha with no Japanese female leads though. *chefs kiss*
Quote from: Cougerboy on Feb 07, 2024, 05:00:29 AMBesides, the Last Samurai was set at the start of the Meiji period when the samurai's class rank was abolished and over 200 years after "Shogun" the novel's events.
Ah, but I also saw Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III. Checkmate.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 07, 2024, 05:12:15 AMQuote from: Cougerboy on Feb 07, 2024, 05:00:29 AMBesides, the Last Samurai was set at the start of the Meiji period when the samurai's class rank was abolished and over 200 years after "Shogun" the novel's events.
Ah, but I also saw Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III. Checkmate.
Hehehe. Damn you got me on that one. :)
New short feature on how the cast of Shogun learn proper samurai action to make sure it appears authentic on screen:
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/shogun_2024/s01
Who is planning to watch this series?
Episode 1 preview:
Pretty excited to watch the first two episodes after work today.
Quote from: kwisatz on Feb 27, 2024, 02:24:28 PMQuote from: Nightmare Asylum on Feb 27, 2024, 02:20:06 PMwork today
Any fresh rumours?
No rumors today, just
(https://y.yarn.co/41a2c020-b370-4cc6-95c2-487d9628ae00_text.gif)
Quote from: Cougerboy on Feb 23, 2024, 01:55:54 AMWho is planning to watch this series?
Cannot wait. I'm gonna wait till it's finished.
Mate Who Just Spent A Fortnight In Japan Watches New Shōgun Series With Japanese Subtitles On (https://www.betootaadvocate.com/breaking-news/mate-who-just-spent-a-fortnight-in-japan-watches-new-shogun-series-with-japanese-subtitles-on/?fbclid=IwAR0KjfW456Vrxb7MIoXhYFPvtQNVqXOzrDa6IpSOznm7JjtpVpdcXcZGSO8)
Tomatometer 100% 41 Reviews
Metascore 83
Quote from: Ingwar on Feb 28, 2024, 12:15:15 AMTomatometer 100% 41 Reviews
Metascore 83
But...
Quote from: Cougerboy on Feb 07, 2024, 04:22:29 AMAnd some are definitely not liking this FX adaptation.
I don't know what to think. :-\
Really enjoyed the first two episodes, and already can't wait for next week's. Feels like real event TV.
Bet I end up reading this book pretty soon after the series ends...
Also, just realized that's Campion Sturges!
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 28, 2024, 12:32:17 AMQuote from: Ingwar on Feb 28, 2024, 12:15:15 AMTomatometer 100% 41 Reviews
Metascore 83
But...
Quote from: Cougerboy on Feb 07, 2024, 04:22:29 AMAnd some are definitely not liking this FX adaptation.
I don't know what to think. :-\
Needs more Allan Quartermain.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 28, 2024, 12:32:17 AMQuote from: Ingwar on Feb 28, 2024, 12:15:15 AMTomatometer 100% 41 Reviews
Metascore 83
But...
Quote from: Cougerboy on Feb 07, 2024, 04:22:29 AMAnd some are definitely not liking this FX adaptation.
I don't know what to think. :-\
What about them? I was pointing out there will always be certain geezers complaining on some corner of the internet about how this 2024 version doesn't compare to the 1980 Richard Chamberlain version. To each their own.
But I saw the two episodes of the 2024 version, throughly enjoyed them. Granted, its been a while since I read the original book by James Clavell, but personally, I think this version more accurately reflect the book than the 1980 series. That 1980 NBC series wasn't bad for its time, but its primarily a version of the story seen through the eyes of Blackthorne, since we didn't get subtitles of the Japanese characters when they speak.
But here in the 2024 version, we got to see the Japanese characters more throughly fleshed out. In the book, the Japanese characters weren't background characters. There are long passages devoted to Toranaga, Mariko, Yabu and Omi's internal thoughts and desires, and how that translates into how they acted in the story. We got more of that in the 2024 version since there are more scenes of the Japanese characters on their own without Blackthorne and fully subtitled.
Quote from: Ingwar on Feb 27, 2024, 10:16:58 PMQuote from: Cougerboy on Feb 23, 2024, 01:55:54 AMWho is planning to watch this series?
Cannot wait. I'm gonna wait till it's finished.
Sanada portrays Toranaga with more quiet reserve than Mifune did (so far in the series), whereas Mifune projects more presence. Although both Sanada an Mifune commands a screen charisma as Toranaga in their own way.
I absolutely don't remember original series.
I haven't seen the original series or read the novel, but if I end up liking this new series in full as much as I did the first two episodes yesterday, I'm almost certainly going to end up going back to check out both.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Feb 28, 2024, 12:53:36 PMI haven't seen the original series or read the novel, but if I end up liking this new series in full as much as I did the first two episodes yesterday, I'm almost certainly going to end up going back to check out both.
The novel is
really really good. Some folks are put off by its sheer mass, at over 1100 pages long. But when you actually get down to read it, you don't feel it's length. Its a thrilling page-turner that keeps you wanting to go on and see what happens next. There is a reason it was a best-seller when it was first published despite the length of the novel.
Many have compared Shogun to another epic tome, Game of Thrones. And there are certainly some shared similarities in terms of the political intrigue, machinations and backstabbing as most characters in the story aren't out-right "good" or "bad" but have shades of grey, scheming to enlarge their power or just to survive. Toranaga also face a somewhat similar predicament as Ned Stark did after the ruler of the kingdom dies. Although obviously there aren't any dragons, ice zombies or magic in Shogun. And while there is also a fair amount of sex in Shogun the novel, its not as gratuitously described as in Game of Thrones.
But more than Game of Thrones, Shogun is also about meeting of different cultures, how each see the other as the savage outsider, in this Clavell was quite perceptive in portraying the Japanese, the English Blackthrone and the Portugese as each having their own motives dealing with the other and struggling to communicate across a gaping cultural divide.
You seem to know a lot about Shogun.
https://twitter.com/Variety/status/1763248126754697435
(https://i.ibb.co/nDwXtPq/81-Fyu-FYZjs-L-AC-UF1000-1000-QL80.jpg)
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=64568.0 ;)
Great first two episodes, though!
https://twitter.com/totalfilm/status/1764772932700520503
Can't wait to get a new episode tomorrow. 8)
Cool episode today.
Spoiler
Toranaga resigning so the regents can't impeach him – or vote on anything else – is some four dimensional chess move.
Blackthorne kinda reminds me of Tom Hardy :D
Great show though, got to rewatch the old one to bridge the waiting time until the next episode.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 04, 2024, 10:48:48 PMCan't wait to get a new episode tomorrow. 8)
I haven't even seen the last two! >:(
Quote from: Never say no to Panda! on Mar 05, 2024, 10:17:45 PMBlackthorne kinda reminds me of Tom Hardy :D
Great show though, got to rewatch the old one to bridge the waiting time until the next episode.
My friend actually thought he was! But he doesn't see a lot of movies or TV, so I can't blame him, haha.
As for episode 3, I enjoyed aspect of how Toranaga seems to be 3 steps ahead of his enemies on the council (and Yabu as well, Yabu is like a less cunning and more "likeable in his despicable way" version of Littlefinger from Game of Thrones). Amusing too how they incorporate the "pillow" talk from the book into episode 3 as well and the cultural differences on sex was funny to watch. You could see how Mariko, which was pretty reserve, cold and stern in the first 2 episodes gradually warms up to Blackthorne and reveals more about her to him.
Episode 4 preview:
Absolutely loving this show! I love Japanese culture. It's a 10 out of 10 for me so far.
Apparently, Shogun is a streaming hit, earning 9 million views across Hulu, Disney+ and Star networks globally. That's the most watched standalone show for Hulu outside of Marvel and Star Wars franchise:
https://screenrant.com/shogun-hulu-fx-show-streaming-viewership-premiere-record/
Quote from: Cougerboy on Mar 07, 2024, 04:27:47 PMApparently, Shogun is a streaming hit, earning 9 million views across Hulu, Disney+ and Star networks globally. That's the most watched standalone show for Hulu outside of Marvel and Star Wars franchise:
https://screenrant.com/shogun-hulu-fx-show-streaming-viewership-premiere-record/
Glad to see people are watching, the show's first three episodes have rocked, and I really have no reason to believe it won't keep up that level of quality for the remainder of its run at this point.
https://twitter.com/HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN/status/1765247639241818585
Yoooo today's episode rocks. Big things coming...
It was hilarious watching Mariko and Fuji trying hard not to laugh when Blackthorne gallantly ate natto. It does show Shogun can sneak some humour into the series from time to time, I like that.
Episode 4 focused on the budding relationship between Blackthorne and Mariko, so its mostly about the quieter moments, the calm before the storm, so-to-speak. There were also more hints about Mariko's past and how that (may) link to what Toranaga want her to do in the future. But that big twist in the end was satisfying. Keeps me wanting to watch more episodes.
Quote from: chrisr232007 on Mar 07, 2024, 05:38:30 AMAbsolutely loving this show! I love Japanese culture. It's a 10 out of 10 for me so far.
Then you should watch Tokyo Vice. I highly recommend.
I was not aware of this:
QuoteAccording to multiple sources, one of the early real-life Shoguns, Sakanoue no Tamuramaro (758–811), was Black, though denied by others.
https://twitter.com/wspiv001/status/1765001870089539634
Quote from: Local Trouble on Mar 13, 2024, 08:04:52 PMI was not aware of this:
QuoteAccording to multiple sources, one of the early real-life Shoguns, Sakanoue no Tamuramaro (758–811), was Black, though denied by others.
https://twitter.com/wspiv001/status/1765001870089539634
Check Yasuke:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasuke
Me gusta, though is it just me, or does Blackthorne kinda stand out? Not sure what exactly it is, but does his acting feel a bit wooden or maybe just compared to the other cast? His movement/walking feels kinda weird sometimes and facial expressions not fit the scene/feelings (most of the time, that look from the thumbnail of the post above). I think there is 0 chemistry between him and Mariko (that bathing scene...).I just watched the old TV show, it was a piece of its time ofc, acting was different and Chamberlain had a different energy...but I had np with that setup. It kinda feels as if Cosmo was told to do a Tom Hardy impression, barbarian style - in the end he is stranded and stands out in this society (what I would be fine with, but I guess therefore the relationship to Mariko feels kinda strange). Weird, but I like the show in general.
https://twitter.com/EmmaTolkin/status/1769738758755319829
Netflix almost have a monopoly on its shows in the no.1 streaming rating spot week after week, so its a pleasant surprise to see Hulu one-up Netflix with Shogun being the no.1 streaming show in ratings in week 2 and week 3 (episode 3 and 4):
Week 2:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/shogun-bonafide-breakout-streaming-hit-213000180.html (https://sg.news.yahoo.com/shogun-bonafide-breakout-streaming-hit-213000180.html)
Week 3:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2024/03/17/hulus-shogun-is-still-crushing-netflix-in-viewership-a-true-rarity-in-streaming/?sh=4fda246c93ef (https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2024/03/17/hulus-shogun-is-still-crushing-netflix-in-viewership-a-true-rarity-in-streaming/?sh=4fda246c93ef)
Episode 5 new preview clip:
Just finished watching episode 5 of Shogun. Here Blackthorne learns a very painful lesson that his words as a hatamoto has very literal life and death consequences. We also get the full revelation of Mariko's background, specifically her painful family history and why she was willing to follow Toranaga. Fuji as the unwilling consort also comes to her own, deftly balancing household management and Blackthorne's ignorant commands. We also see how Toranaga seem to be outplaying his untrustworthy vassal Yabu at every turn. And the appearance of Lady Ochiba at the end of the episode reveals herself as another villain in the show, someone possibily more dangerous than Ishido to Toranaga? She does remind me of Cersei from Game of Thrones, that's for certain.
Shogun Episode 6 preview:
Watched episode five today after not being able to watch it yesterday. Another really good episode. So much immediate menace in
Spoiler
Lady Ochiba's arrival at the end.
Also really loved
Spoiler
the detail about Fuji's father's swords that were given to Blackthorne but really never belonged to her father in the first place, and how they then take on new, reinvigorated meaning yet again when they are given to Toranaga by Blackthrone.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 21, 2024, 12:56:29 AMWatched episode five today after not being able to watch it yesterday. Another really good episode. So much immediate menace in Spoiler
Lady Ochiba's arrival at the end.
Also really loved Spoiler
the detail about Kiku's father's swords that were given to Blackthorne but really never belonged to her father in the first place, and how they then take on new, reinvigorated meaning yet again when they are given to Toranaga by Blackthrone.
I should add, in case anyone wants to know, "tatarigami" as mentioned in the episode refers to an evil demon that curses people. The villagers suspect Blackthorne brought that curse on them.
https://twitter.com/THR/status/1771993401015030247
As for episode 6 of Shogun, after episodes of gory violence...things quiet down a bit to focus on the women in the show. Usually I am not too keen on shows or episodes concentratring on women talk or "exploring women's inner lives etc", but in the Shogun context, I paid attention, because the story on Mariko and Lady Ochiba in this episode directly foreshadows major plot points in the story. What those plot developments are and what the fates of Mariko and Ochiba will be, I can't say of course (I don't want to spoil for those who haven't read the book), but I did notice they changed slightly the reason for Mariko marrying Buntaro, which the book gave a different reason.
I do like the fact Kiku was able in a way to become the "avatar" of Mariko, to express the feelings and connection between Blackthorne and Mariko when they cannot directly divluge their feelings to each other...yet. This episode explores why Ochiba became this villainous and manipulative Cersei Lannister-type character from Game of Thrones and especially how she seem to turn her initial powerlessness to later wanting "to spit at fate". George RR Martin is rumored to based Cersei on Ochiba, so you can think of Ochiba as a sort of "prototype" Cersei.
Jarvis acting and the way he moves sometimes take me out of the experience, feels so forced and kinda weird and it's getting worse with each episode...in addition there still is 0 chemistry between him and Anna Sawai (awesome acting btw), no way they should end up feeling attracted to each other. Maybe he is just standing out, since the rest of the show is too good. I'm curious if that's just the way he acts or what he was told to do.
Whatever, seems to be my personal problem I have to live with. Would love to see him in a Tom Hardy style role/movie though. Wondering 'bout quite a few complains about the subtitles on social media, I think it's an advantage...for me that beautiful native language just adds up to the setting and feels natural.
Just caught yesterday's episode, loved it. The scene with Mariko "translating" Kiku for Blackthorne might just be my favorite scene in the show to date. Loved everything about that scene, especially once
Spoiler
Kiku moved to the other side of Mariko and when Mariko started literally translating using the word "I' instead of "she"/"Kiku".
A lot of complex intersecting backstory woven through this episode's flashbacks, too, which I think will really come together and make a rewatch play incredibly well.
Episode 6
Spoiler
The Shogun rises! Osaka shall fall!
Oh my God today's episode. :o
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 02, 2024, 10:36:48 PMOh my God today's episode. :o
It already dropped on Hulu?! :o
That episode was soooo good. Top notch acting, cinematography, costumes...
Spoiler
... and Red Wedding vibe!
Quote from: E. Shaw on Apr 02, 2024, 11:13:48 PMQuote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 02, 2024, 10:36:48 PMOh my God today's episode. :o
It already dropped on Hulu?! :o
Yep, it goes up on Hulu the same day it airs on FX each week.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 02, 2024, 11:27:19 PMQuote from: E. Shaw on Apr 02, 2024, 11:13:48 PMQuote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 02, 2024, 10:36:48 PMOh my God today's episode. :o
It already dropped on Hulu?! :o
Yep, it goes up on Hulu the same day it airs on FX each week.
For some reason I thought it was Wednesdays.
Saw episode 7 of Shogun. Toranaga really has his back against the wall now, after asking his estranged half-brother for help except that half-brother has his own ideas. The shock twist ending with a major character being killed off...not sure what to think of that. Still, there are hints Toranaga isn't out of options yet, as he seem to have a secret plan in store, given his chat with the madam of the local brothel...
Episode 8 preview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7_JIVqjkuY
Quote from: Cougerboy on Apr 05, 2024, 06:04:39 AMSaw episode 7 of Shogun. Toranaga really has his back against the wall now, after asking his estranged half-brother for help except that half-brother has his own ideas. The shock twist ending with a major character being killed off...not sure what to think of that. Still, there are hints Toranaga isn't out of options yet, as he seem to have a secret plan in store, given his chat with the madam of the local brothel...
Episode 8 preview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7_JIVqjkuY
The surprise death was a good message about
Spoiler
when you are hot headed and leap into the fray you can end up dead instead of achieving glory.
Spoiler
I didn't know until after watching the episode that that death was a change from the source material. It felt incredibly appropriate for me, given the way the character had been portrayed up to that point and how the episode had panned out. Stripped away any last remaining semblance of glory and honor that might have been lingering regarding the conflict at hand. It's all just a bloody mess.
I have to day the battles (if they can be called that) have been disappointing with dark scenes & shaky camera, and a lot of ambushes/deaths off screen with a scene later of Samurai dead on a field or beneath trees.
Quote from: E. Shaw on Apr 05, 2024, 01:50:34 PMQuote from: Cougerboy on Apr 05, 2024, 06:04:39 AMSaw episode 7 of Shogun. Toranaga really has his back against the wall now, after asking his estranged half-brother for help except that half-brother has his own ideas. The shock twist ending with a major character being killed off...not sure what to think of that. Still, there are hints Toranaga isn't out of options yet, as he seem to have a secret plan in store, given his chat with the madam of the local brothel...
Episode 8 preview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7_JIVqjkuY
The surprise death was a good message about Spoiler
when you are hot headed and leap into the fray you can end up dead instead of achieving glory.
Well, let's just say he lacks the strategic mind and patience of Toranaga.
Quote from: E. Shaw on Apr 05, 2024, 02:14:58 PMI have to day the battles (if they can be called that) have been disappointing with dark scenes & shaky camera, and a lot of ambushes/deaths off screen with a scene later of Samurai dead on a field or beneath trees.
Shogun, the James Clavell novel, is less about the battles and more about the scheming and moving the chess pieces leading up to the battle. This doesn't mean there aren't skirmishes here and there featured in the novel and an upcoming battle scene in the novel (which I suspect will feature in the adaptation as well), is quite graphic. That being said, if you want non-stop big battles, you may be disappointed and the series might not be for you. (Not saying you have bad taste, just that your expectation/what you want is different than what the novel and adaptation actually offers).
Quote from: Cougerboy on Apr 06, 2024, 05:12:12 AMQuote from: E. Shaw on Apr 05, 2024, 01:50:34 PMQuote from: Cougerboy on Apr 05, 2024, 06:04:39 AMSaw episode 7 of Shogun. Toranaga really has his back against the wall now, after asking his estranged half-brother for help except that half-brother has his own ideas. The shock twist ending with a major character being killed off...not sure what to think of that. Still, there are hints Toranaga isn't out of options yet, as he seem to have a secret plan in store, given his chat with the madam of the local brothel...
Episode 8 preview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7_JIVqjkuY
The surprise death was a good message about Spoiler
when you are hot headed and leap into the fray you can end up dead instead of achieving glory.
Well, let's just say he lacks the strategic mind and patience of Toranaga.
Quote from: E. Shaw on Apr 05, 2024, 02:14:58 PMI have to day the battles (if they can be called that) have been disappointing with dark scenes & shaky camera, and a lot of ambushes/deaths off screen with a scene later of Samurai dead on a field or beneath trees.
Shogun, the James Clavell novel, is less about the battles and more about the scheming and moving the chess pieces leading up to the battle. This doesn't mean there aren't skirmishes here and there featured in the novel and an upcoming battle scene in the novel (which I suspect will feature in the adaptation as well), is quite graphic. That being said, if you want non-stop big battles, you may be disappointed and the series might not be for you. (Not saying you have bad taste, just that your expectation/what you want is different than what the novel and adaptation actually offers).
Let me be clear, I do not want non-stop battles. I enjoy intrigues and the subtle politic, but my complaint was when a battle or small skirmish in this adaptation happens they obscure it with bad lighting or have it happen off camera, the only exception was the canon attack on the Osaka detachment.
I prefer battles, duels, and fights to be integral to the story and to express the conflict in the characters like Vader vs Luke in Empire. However, there is no excuse that when the crucial violence of the physical manifests from the unseen hostilities of the heart to do it with bad choreography and lighting.
I have seen a trend in Hollywood to darken everything to save money. I loath and detest it. One of many, and I say many reasons I love the Alien franchise is it is well lit and choreographed.
Quote from: E. Shaw on Apr 06, 2024, 05:54:58 PMQuote from: Cougerboy on Apr 06, 2024, 05:12:12 AMQuote from: E. Shaw on Apr 05, 2024, 01:50:34 PMQuote from: Cougerboy on Apr 05, 2024, 06:04:39 AMSaw episode 7 of Shogun. Toranaga really has his back against the wall now, after asking his estranged half-brother for help except that half-brother has his own ideas. The shock twist ending with a major character being killed off...not sure what to think of that. Still, there are hints Toranaga isn't out of options yet, as he seem to have a secret plan in store, given his chat with the madam of the local brothel...
Episode 8 preview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7_JIVqjkuY
The surprise death was a good message about Spoiler
when you are hot headed and leap into the fray you can end up dead instead of achieving glory.
Well, let's just say he lacks the strategic mind and patience of Toranaga.
Quote from: E. Shaw on Apr 05, 2024, 02:14:58 PMI have to day the battles (if they can be called that) have been disappointing with dark scenes & shaky camera, and a lot of ambushes/deaths off screen with a scene later of Samurai dead on a field or beneath trees.
Shogun, the James Clavell novel, is less about the battles and more about the scheming and moving the chess pieces leading up to the battle. This doesn't mean there aren't skirmishes here and there featured in the novel and an upcoming battle scene in the novel (which I suspect will feature in the adaptation as well), is quite graphic. That being said, if you want non-stop big battles, you may be disappointed and the series might not be for you. (Not saying you have bad taste, just that your expectation/what you want is different than what the novel and adaptation actually offers).
Let me be clear, I do not want non-stop battles. I enjoy intrigues and the subtle politic, but my complaint was when a battle or small skirmish in this adaptation happens they obscure it with bad lighting or have it happen off camera, the only exception was the canon attack on the Osaka detachment.
I stand corrected. I agree, I much prefer a clear view of the battle than have it obscured in the dark or shrouded in fog.And you are right, this isn't something unique to Shogun but a trend in Hollywood. Although in the case of Toranaga's memory, there might be a legit reason for the foggy view, as it was meant to reflect his memory from long ago and it has become a bit vague as a result from the passage of time.
E08 :o
Finished watching episode 8, very engrossing episode that hits you in the gut. Seems like its the set up for the final showdown between Toranaga and Ishido. If the tragic death of major character in episode 7 was a shock, then we got more shocking deaths in episode 8, this time, it hits even harder emotionally. You could see for the first time, how much of an impact that has on Toranaga. But just when you thought Toranaga has resigned to defeat...well, we get another twist in the plot.
The tea ceremony scene between Buntaro and Mariko was also heartfelt. Mariko finally gets the chance to tell it straight to her abusive husband, if anything, I can't believe the scene actually made me feel a little sympathetic to the wife-beater husband of hers, quite a feat, I have to say.
I also like how Blackthorne is having an identity crisis now and don't know where he truly belongs. It's his instinct to survive though, which keeps him going, even turning to unsavory characters, to ensure his head remains on his body.
Just watched episode 8 and I don't have much to add other than my usual weekly bout of holy SHIT, this show is great.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 11, 2024, 12:55:26 AMJust watched episode 8 and I don't have much to add other than my usual weekly bout of holy SHIT, this show is great.
A big battle scene is coming up, if the adaptation is faithful to the novel about the event that is to occur in Osaka. And if they stick to what happened in the book, another big shock is coming...
Episode 9 preview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeVL6OLoXcU
My friend noticed how Mariko and Buntaro has to crawl or kneel to get inside the tea room and wonder why the entrance was so small.
If I am not mistaken, Japanese tea houses/rooms have intentionally small entrances, no more than 2 feet by 2 feet, forcing guests to crouch and kneel to enter (which was the way Mariko and Bunataro enterd the tea house). Supposedly, it was designed that way so that people of different ranks and hierarchy can become relative equals inside the tea house, which is meant as a separate world away from everyday life. The idea being that, if everyone, regardless of their social status, enters the tea room the same way, a sort of nominal equality is established inside the tea house.
Btw, Buntaro is based on the real-life samurai Hosokawa Tadaoki, just as Mariko was based on Tadaoki's wife, Hosokawa Gracia, who in real life was also a Catholic. Whether Hosokawa Tadaoki was also an abusive husband as Buntaro was, I am not sure. But the real life Hosokawa Tadaoki was known to be an expert in the tea ceremony, being a disciple of the tea master Sen no Rikyū (who tragically was ordered to commit seppuku by the taiko Toyotomi Hideyoshi over some supposed offence he committed.) So in that aspect of tea ceremony, Buntaro was historically accurate to his real-life counter-part.
Finish watching the penultimate episode and wow...that ending, I am a bit speechless, it really hits you in the gut with raw emotions. Having read the book, I knew it was coming, but I was impressed they did it better than I imagined.
Mariko decides to take her fate in her hands. You can see she displays a confidence and self-assurance that wasn't apparent in the earlier episodes. She knew her mission and executed it to perfection, you can glimpse a hint of satisfaction on her face as she outplays Ishido. Through her, the fate of Japan will be decided, to some extent. Anna Sawai does a stand up job portraying her in this episode.
Ochiba by contrast reveals she still care for Mariko and her flashes of concern shows both her lingering sisterly affection for Mariko and also the realization that Toranaga, through Mariko, is outmaneuvering the council of regents.
Blackthorne too also comes to understand what "Crimson Sky" truly means, as embodied by Mariko. From his initial disgust and horror at samurai rituals, he comes to accept it and honor Mariko's desires.
Yabu also has a key role in the episode. Throughout the series, we see him as sadistic and despicable, yet also a comically incompetent version of the scheming "Littlefinger" from Game of Thrones. In this episode though, he has to finally choose which side he will ultimately be loyal to. Tadanobu Asano should be praised for effectively portraying Yabu to draw out the audience's conflicting emotions on him. You hate his character Yabu for what he does yet at the same time you can't help but be invested in that character and focus on him.
Jesus...
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 16, 2024, 10:30:04 PMJesus...
My wife, who hasn't read the book, didn't know what was coming. She was simply devastated emotionally at the end of the episode...but then when on to praise the episode as really well done.
Quite happy, that the whole (no chemistry) thing between Blackthorne and Mariko is not in the center of the show...it felt much more prominent in the old show. Felt like they moved screentime from that to Mariko (such a good actress) and scenes not including Blackthorne, good decision. Excellent episode, once again.
Spoiler
Guess that's the end for a potential spinoff Blackthorne & Yabushige buddy tv series, that sneaky little bastard. Though, it's in his nature. You can't be mad at him.
Quote from: Never say no to Panda! on Apr 17, 2024, 08:28:43 AMQuite happy, that the whole (no chemistry) thing between Blackthorne and Mariko is not in the center of the show...it felt much more prominent in the old show. Felt like they moved screentime from that to Mariko (such a good actress) and scenes not including Blackthorne, good decision. Excellent episode, once again.
Spoiler
Guess that's the end for a potential spinoff Blackthorne & Yabushige buddy tv series, that sneaky little bastard. Though, it's in his nature. You can't be mad at him.
Anna Sawai is a great actress. I think you agree with me her performance in Shogun as Mariko is excellent. She deserves to win an Emmy.
Also, when Mariko says a flower is only a flower when it falls off to Ochiba, not only is that poetic, but there are several layers of meaning to that phrase. On one layer, Mariko as the metaphor for the flower is only valuable when she choose to do what she needs to do for Toranaga. On another layer, its an observation of the transient nature of beauty and life, a very Buddhist philosophical worldview. Remember, Japanese culture is highly influenced by Buddhism (and Zen Budhhism at that), many in the samurai class were devoted Buddhists. Buddhism believe that nothing is truly permanent or everlasting. Including flowers and the beauty of youth, they don't last. So to try and hold onto impermanence is the wrong path. Thus Mariko accepts that since human existence isn't permanent, why not do something truly worthwhile for the future of Japan.
Tomorrow's the big day...
Absolutely adored the finale. What a perfect cap to this series.
What's in store for season 2?
https://twitter.com/roxana_hadadi/status/1783123471377035652
Yabushige in the first episode : "Why tell a dead man the future"
Toranaga to Yabushige in finale : "Why tell a dead man the future"
Overall, I enjoyed the series. The finale, my wife complained was a little anti-climatic, but Shogun was never about the big battles but more about the scheming and the drama. So the character's fate really hits hard. In the final episode, Yabu gets his just deserts. Omi steps out from his uncle's shadow. Blackthorne comes to terms with living in Japan. And Toranaga unveils his master plan all along. Interesting enough, Toranaga comes off a bit like a villain in how he sacrifices his "chess pieces". But he says its for the greater good and to usher in an era of peace. The ends justifies the means for him I guess.
Some minor complaints...the action scenes can be a bit too dark and hard to see. But otherwise, not a bad series at all.
No more Shōgun Tuesdays. :'(
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Apr 30, 2024, 10:47:59 AMNo more Shōgun Tuesdays. :'(
I'm so depressed about it I may rewatch the whole thing. Seeing all the episodes back to back will be vastly different than the week to week episode watch with recap.
https://twitter.com/DEADLINE/status/1788954613867229289
...huh?
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on May 10, 2024, 03:33:06 PMhttps://twitter.com/DEADLINE/status/1788954613867229289
...huh?
Is this confirmed? We will get season 2?
Sounds like things are going that way but... why?
Because of all the loose ends and unanswered questions in season 1! >:(
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on May 11, 2024, 11:19:57 PMSounds like things are going that way but... why?
Yeah considering that is how the book ended. I'd rather they did another James Clavell's books.
Quote from: E. Shaw on May 12, 2024, 05:16:40 PMQuote from: Nightmare Asylum on May 11, 2024, 11:19:57 PMSounds like things are going that way but... why?
Yeah considering that is how the book ended. I'd rather they did another James Clavell's books.
Agreed. I don't think this is the right move. Without a solid source material to base on, things could get tricky plot-wise. Game of Thrones' final season was slammed by critics and fans for ending on a poor note, partly because the producers ran out of books to adapt and had to figure out things on their own, with only a vague guideline from George RR Martin. The result was subpar. I hope Shogun won't be repeating Game of Throne mistake.
Now I suppose its possible the Shogun producers can work out a decent story to carry on with a season 2, but I doubt it, because the producers themselves sound like the story was done and they don't have any good ideas to carry on. This sounds more like the TV network pressuring them to continue. That's usually not a good sign for the show in terms of quality and reception.
https://twitter.com/DEADLINE/status/1791189422547009608
'Shōgun' To Continue: FX & Hulu Eye Two More Seasons Of James Clavell Adaptation
QuoteShōgun is a limited series no more: FX is gearing up for more installments of the historic drama.
The renewal was expected and foreshadowed by star-producer Hiroyuki Sanada closing a deal to continue as Lord Yoshii Toranaga. Also back are co-creators, executive producers and writers Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo as well as EP Michaela Clavell.
For now, FX and streaming partner Hulu are saying that they are working with the estate of Shōgun author James Clavell to to develop two additional seasons.
There is no mention of a green light, and a start date for production has not been set, but a writers' room is being assembled and will begin this summer. There is also no information on source material, whether the new seasons will stay within the Shōgun universe or will also draw from the other books in Clavell's Asian Saga.
The news of Shōgun's return comes on the heels of the 10-episode original installment's outsized commercial and critical success. It also alters the way the Clavell's adaptation will be considered by the Emmys, with Shōgun moving from limited to drama series categories.
Six years in the making across multiple continents, Shōgun is FX's most expensive series to date. Ahead of the series premiere, FX Chairman John Landgraf said that he was hoping it would do well so he and his team could take more shots with big-scope, big-budget series.
Along with garnering strong reviews, Shōgun amassed 9M views globally across Hulu, Disney+ and Star+ in its first six days, becoming the company's No. 1 general entertainment series internationally. Viewers' interest remained strong, and, through its first nine weeks, Shōgun is FX's most-watched show ever based on global hours streamed.
Shōgun's original installment is set in Japan in the year 1600 at the dawn of a century-defining civil war. Lord Yoshii Toranaga is fighting for his life as his enemies on the Council of Regents unite against him. When a mysterious European ship is found marooned in a nearby fishing village, its English pilot, John Blackthorne (Cosmo Jarvis), comes bearing secrets that could help Toranaga tip the scales of power and devastate the formidable influence of Blackthorne's own enemies — the Jesuit priests and Portuguese merchants. Toranaga's and Blackthorne's fates become inextricably tied to their translator, Toda Mariko (Anna Sawai), a mysterious Christian noblewoman and the last of a disgraced line. While serving her lord amidst this fraught political landscape, Mariko must reconcile her newfound companionship with Blackthorne, her commitment to the faith that saved her and her duty to her late father.
Season 1 features an Japanese cast, including Tadanobu Asano as Kashigi Yabushige, a notorious backstabber and close ally of Toranaga; Hiroto Kanai as Kashigi Omi, the young leader of the fishing village where Blackthorne's ship was found; Takehiro Hira as Ishido Kazunari, a powerful bureaucrat who is Toranaga's chief rival; Moeka Hoshi as Usami Fuji, a widow who must find new purpose amidst her lord's fight; Tokuma Nishioka as Toda Hiromatsu, Toranaga's trusted general and closest friend; Shinnosuke Abe as Toda Hirokatsu (Buntaro), Mariko's jealous husband; Yuki Kura as Yoshii Nagakado, the brash son of Toranaga with a strong desire to prove himself; Yuka Kouri as Kiku, a courtesan renowned for her artistry throughout Japan; and Fumi Nikaido as Ochiba no Kata, the revered mother of the heir who will stop at nothing to put an end to Toranaga and his threat to her son's power.
The series is produced by FX Productions.
https://deadline.com/2024/05/shogun-renewed-season-2-and-3-fx-1235916278/
I really hope that this goes the route of adapting some of Clavell's other works, instead of straight up being a season two (and three!) of
Shōgun itself. Only time will tell, I guess.
EDIT: Thread:
https://twitter.com/Justin_Marks_/status/1791219944442437902