Why the PREDATOR sequels get the face WRONG [Opinion Piece]

Started by bendinglight, Feb 21, 2021, 05:43:58 AM

Author
Why the PREDATOR sequels get the face WRONG [Opinion Piece] (Read 30,860 times)

SiL

Quote from: Trash Queen on Oct 23, 2021, 08:34:44 PM
I mean I'd be surprised if anyone actually kept it.
It's the digital master, of course they're going to keep it.

Voodoo Magic

Extremely stoked that Alien has moved over to Weta... but still waiting for a new FX house to work on Predator. *sigh*

BigDaddyJohn

Looks like we'll have ADI for Prey unfortunately. Still totally possible that they'll make a great pred, but at this point we're allowed to not trust them.

Voodoo Magic

Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Jan 12, 2022, 05:32:46 PM
Looks like we'll have ADI for Prey unfortunately. Still totally possible that they'll make a great pred, but at this point we're allowed to not trust them.

Nothing would make me happier than a great ADI pred in Prey to finally heap praises upon! Hoping for the best!  🤞

BlueMarsalis79

BlueMarsalis79

#229
Spoiler
Quote from: choccy milk on Feb 25, 2021, 06:44:32 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 25, 2021, 06:14:38 PMLet's be sure to be nice brother!  :)
Lucy and I are bffs lel quit with the pass-aggro attitude fam
[close]

How I wish that was true.


Just came across this topic again, thinking about just how awful all the Predators look past Predator 2, in Predators their mouths do not even close. When ADI finally turn in a good looking (if different) Predator and their last, it gets smeared over by muddy vaseline cgi.

Just some pretty good films marred by woeful special effects.


(Bad Blood)

Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Oct 14, 2023, 10:20:12 PM
Spoiler
Quote from: choccy milk on Feb 25, 2021, 06:44:32 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 25, 2021, 06:14:38 PMLet's be sure to be nice brother!  :)
Lucy and I are bffs lel quit with the pass-aggro attitude fam
[close]

How I wish that was true.


Just came across this topic again, thinking about just how awful all the Predators look past Predator 2, in Predators their mouths do not even close. When ADI finally turn in a good looking (if different) Predator and their last, it gets smeared over by muddy vaseline cgi.

Just some pretty good films marred by woeful special effects.


I definitely agree, Predator 2 was the last time they ever looked right. As far as ADI's latest work, I think they did outstanding and the suit looked excellent. Sadly like you stated, that CGI just ruined it.

Greyback

Greyback

#231
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 12, 2021, 04:51:35 PM
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on May 12, 2021, 02:47:55 PMAnderson's intentions with the design was obvious. It's a comic book movie.

AVP is based on a comic where proportions are exaggerated and the Predator character was to appear heroic in the film which meant hulking frames and a more emotive face. We've been over the emotive face several times here. The Predator is not a character who should smile but it fit the film because he wasn't trying to create a monster, he's trying to make an anti-hero the audience would have an easier time backing. The problem with Scar's face aside from a few technical flubs was that it's so different to the characterization that came before and since. They since walked that back hard because subsequent Predators have more or less been down and out bad guys again. Scar looks weird because he is the odd one out and why it's so frustrating to look at merchandise who try to "correct" the face because they don't understand he's not meant to look like the bad guy. The tag line lied to you, you're supposed to cheer for Lex and Scar.

That's why Wolf looks so different because they tried walking the design back. The angular mask, the lack of armor, the predatory cat influence on the face. All that was because AVP is a comic movie first and the Strause brothers didn't get that and so made Wolf as a pallet cleanser to the last film.

I isolated the "The problem with Scar's face aside from a few technical flubs" because that's the heart of it to me, the crux of pages and pages of complaints. We can't control the director's choices in each film, but how much worse does each choice gets with inferior craftsmanship?

We know these unnatural folds & rolls in skin or cockeyed mandibles aren't part of the concept art or maquette, so how much better would Scar have looked with better craftsmanship?

https://i.ibb.co/hy7JxHF/20210318-195010.gif
Or what happened when trying to realize Steve Wang's cool approved Wolf maquette on screen?

https://i.ibb.co/4gG9CYV/20210321-102513-1-4.gif
And we saw the cg version of The Fugitive look more proportional than it's practical counterpart.



So at least for me, it's not the director's vision so much so as the company realizing these visions either in design,  puppeteering, or both. And it's crazy, because I think Alec & Tom are real talented guys.. it just seems Predators aren't their strength.

Could you elaborate on the Steve Wang maquette? Unfortunately, I don't know this story yet.

I love the design of the Wolf Predator, it is still the last good design. I have nothing against the AVP designs, I really like the armor and helmets, but the Wolf Predaror was something very special. I deeply hate the designs from Predators, The Predator and Prey.


Quote from: Yautja888 on May 15, 2021, 04:04:44 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 12, 2021, 02:21:42 PM
Quote from: Kradan on May 11, 2021, 06:35:20 PMWell, It looked like labor of love with Paul W. S. Anderson, The Strause Brothers, Shane Black too, you know. True, he may be very passionate about the story he's telling but creature's design ? He may very well just trust effects' guys to do their job.

Well, Anderson only had the Winston Predator creations to reflect back on, so this aesthetic issue was nonexistent for him.

However, the Strause Brothers did call out problems they had with the Predator design in Anderson's AvP, and actively pursued changes.

And Shane Black, I'm uncertain what was in his head.

But very true. It's just a hope at this point. :)

QuoteI'm genuinely curious is there any record of John Mctiernan or Stephen Hopkins having any inputs in Predator's design or they completely trusted Stan & Co. ?

Yes and yes, but McTiernan was the crucial one!  Check it out:

https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=62388.0

Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2021, 08:32:32 PM"The guy seems passionate so he must want exactly what I want?" Let's wait and see.

I think that's a silly comment to put in quotes to be fair. Plenty of people have been hoping in these threads that Dan Trachtenberg feels Predator designs haven't measured up since the Winston originals (seemingly an overwhelmingly majority opinion among Predator fans regardless if they mind KNB and/or ADI's work), but no one is pretending we know what Dan wants. The hope is, if he pitched this as a Predator fan, he may have recognized a decline in design too . But we don't know what's in his head. No one is correlating passion with a definite desire to strive for our vision of Winston's superior aesthetic. We're just hoping a correlation may exist. But it may just turn out the opposite. We all know it. Therefore no one feels confident. But as fans, we can hope.


Precisely :).And it doesn't hurt if the fans are vocal about their preference for the original design, (in terms of quality and aesthetic).Better be vocal about it before it's too late, you never know who read the boards.

Where can I complain, seriously? So many bad decisions have been made in recent years, whether the new dinosaur designs in Jurassic World (at least they restored the original design of the T-Rex for Dominion) or Alien and Predator. I'm really looking forward to Alien Romulus and the FX series.

Prey would be so much better with a different design, especially the face, and I hope something changes for Prey 2.

Mike’s Monsters

@Greyback you won't get a response about the Steve Wang comment. Voodoo, the person who you're asking is no longer visiting this site. I may be wrong but I believe he's referring to this maquette Steve designed of Wolf for AvPR:



https://imgur.com/a/9JBE9Qm (link in case the image doesn't want to post from my phone)

Greyback

Greyback

#233
@Mike's Monstersa

That's a bummer to read. Thanks for the picture. I find this design neither better nor worse than the final design. I really like the crown on the final design, which is barely visible in this picture.

Do you know more information about the design changes and why they were made?


RoguePred1987

Changes in design are always interesting so long as there's some sort of context. Berserkers for example being a different subspecies, and Feral being a different subspecies and being 300 years earlier in the timeline. With the context of those films I'm totally onboard with those designs. But the choices behind the standard Preds post-P2 has always been bizarre to me. 

Immortan Jonesy

Designing the Predator's jaws is rocket science🤓👉👈

Still Collating...

ADI claimed that it is an artistic choice. I don't know what's worse. The idea that they couldn't just make the mouth to close elegantly or the idea that they actually thought that the face of the newer designs looked better?

Local Trouble

Didn't ADI once say that they could make their designs look accurate to the original, but they just don't want to?

Mr.Turok

Can ADI for once in their life JUST NOT  :'(

It don't need to be spread out like syrup on pancakes, sometimes a few teaspoons is enough of a helping, it don't gotta be downing in it that it turns into a pile of molasses. I beg yall, we just want great Predator design again. I had enough of just having mid.

Local Trouble

Local Trouble

#239
I keep expecting their Predator to end up mutating into something like Pumpkinhead, just like their Alien did, as if that was the pinnacle of creature design and they can't wait to make everything else they do resemble it.

They're like Mr. Brady in The Brady Bunch Movie.  Every building he designed, whether it was a restaurant, office or convenience store looked just like his house.  Which he designed.

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