VMP2: PREDATOR 2: Is the City Hunter Predator "bad blood"?

Started by Voodoo Magic, Feb 12, 2019, 05:13:36 PM

Author
VMP2: PREDATOR 2: Is the City Hunter Predator "bad blood"? (Read 19,389 times)

Voodoo Magic

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 08:48:56 AM
The code of honor thing is one of the things I truly hate about the EU. It just doesn't work retroactively to Predator and P2. To me, they'll always just be sadistic hunters in it for the thrill of the hunt/satisfaction of the kill.

But the thrill of the hunt/satisfaction of the kill isn't sadistic, not by definition.

Also, you don't need the EU to establish a moral code You already see a moral code established in P1 & P2. Refusing to hunt the armed. Refusing to hunt the pregnant. Letting Mike live. This is all a clear indication of a moral code, and anything but characteristics of sadistic.

Corporal Hicks

I would consider getting a thrill out of hunting or killing folk as "deriving pleasure from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others."

It's indication of rules, not necessarily a moral code. There's no thrill in hunting or killing prey who can't fight back. Of course, when the prey proves itself like Dutch... But then there's the cloaking device and the advanced weaponry. There is absolutely no honour in that.

Letting Harrigan go is a bit of outlier, granted, but it's one authoritative individual giving kudos to someone who bested one of his kind.

Samhain13

Samhain13

#32
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 02:39:08 AM
Was Danny's necklace in the novelization? Probably not right? Not if the Elder killed the City Hunter in the book like the old draft. In the old draft, Harrigan found King Willy's dreads in the cemetery - not a necklace.

It was Danny's medallion on the cemetery, apart from extra dialogue, Predator POV and the ending, everything else is the same on the novel.

SiL

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 11:54:52 AM
It's indication of rules, not necessarily a moral code. There's no thrill in hunting or killing prey who can't fight back. Of course, when the prey proves itself like Dutch... But then there's the cloaking device and the advanced weaponry. There is absolutely no honour in that.

Letting Harrigan go is a bit of outlier, granted, but it's one authoritative individual giving kudos to someone who bested one of his kind.
Dutch is right in his assessment why it doesn't kill the unarmed -- no sport, not no honour. They want a challenge.

The first Predator was absolutely sadistic in not just killing Dutch outright and instead beating him half to death.

I put the Elder doing what he did simply because the hunt was over; specifically, CH's hunt was over. Harrigan was his target and he didn't get him, nobody had any right taking the kill from him.

Giving the trophy didn't seem like a matter of course -- he turns, thinks, and then gives him a prize. I don't think they're used to prey walking into their home and gutting their buddies. It's like, "Yay you? Here's a prize, I guess? I don't know, f**k off, we're done here."

Voodoo Magic

Voodoo Magic

#34
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 11:54:52 AM
I would consider getting a thrill out of hunting or killing folk as "deriving pleasure from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others."

It's indication of rules, not necessarily a moral code. There's no thrill in hunting or killing prey who can't fight back. Of course, when the prey proves itself like Dutch... But then there's the cloaking device and the advanced weaponry. There is absolutely no honour in that.

Letting Harrigan go is a bit of outlier, granted, but it's one authoritative individual giving kudos to someone who bested one of his kind.

Hicks I think you're bringing in your feelings and a much larger debate about hunting, which I applaud you for. But this needs to be seen through a prism of a society that allows sports hunting, not through the prism of you or I agree disagreeing with it. (for the record I am not an advocate for sports hunting).

Here on Earth there are many sports hunters that are God-fearing people, have families, teach their children from right and wrong , take care of farms, animals like horses and dogs and other pets and are not seen as sadistic people. Sadistic is reserved to sick individuals like serial killers and such. And these hunters who wear camouflage with high-powered rifles and wear deer urine perched in a tree, with all the advantage in the world, can and do consider themselves moral and honorable people.

Applying Yautja to that social construct x 2, they are not sadistic at all. They're just not.




Quote from: SiL on Feb 13, 2019, 12:47:46 PM
Dutch is right in his assessment why it doesn't kill the unarmed -- no sport, not no honour. They want a challenge.

The first Predator was absolutely sadistic in not just killing Dutch outright and instead beating him half to death.

I put the Elder doing what he did simply because the hunt was over; specifically, CH's hunt was over. Harrigan was his target and he didn't get him, nobody had any right taking the kill from him.

Giving the trophy didn't seem like a matter of course -- he turns, thinks, and then gives him a prize. I don't think they're used to prey walking into their home and gutting their buddies. It's like, "Yay you? Here's a prize, I guess? I don't know, f**k off, we're done here."

And that's the neat thing when it's left unambiguous. We can all come away with a different take on it.

Corporal Hicks

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 01:23:03 PM
Hicks I think you're bringing in your feelings and a much larger debate about hunting, which I applaud you for. But this needs to be seen through a prism of a society that allows sports hunting, not through the prism of you or I agree disagreeing with it. (for the record I am not an advocate for sports hunting).

Here on Earth there are many sports hunters that are God-fearing people, have families, teach their children from right and wrong , take care of farms, animals like horses and dogs and other pets and are not seen as sadistic people. Sadistic is reserved to sick individuals like serial killers and such. And these hunters who wear camouflage with high-powered rifles and wear deer urine perched in a tree, with all the advantage in the world, can and do consider themselves moral and honorable people.

Applying Yautja to that social construct x 2, they are not sadistic at all. They're just not.

I wasn't actually considering any sort of human based sports hunting or looking at it through any social prism. And to be honest, that's not something I'm knowledgeable about. But there's a difference between hunting people and hunting animals. Granted, different species and all that but my point remains. They're taking pleasure (especially City Hunter) in inflicting pain in other sentient beings.

They are sadistic. They're dishonourable. Seriously, where is the honour in hiding behind a cloaking device or using massively advanced weaponry. There isn't any. The Predators are intergalactic big game hunters who enjoy hunting and killing. Sometimes that might mean throwing those advantages away so they can get even bigger kicks out of a fight but that's still sadism imho. And that's the way I like my Predators. Not being Perry's Yautja.

Voodoo Magic

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 01:44:51 PM
But there's a difference between hunting people and hunting animals

To us, not to Yautja I suspect.

QuoteGranted, different species and all that but my point remains. They're taking pleasure (especially City Hunter) in inflicting pain in other sentient beings.

If they were truly taking pleasure in inflicting pain, they would draw all their kills out. Tie them up. Cut them. Burn them. Make incisions. Sever limbs than cauterize. You get what I'm saying.  ;D

QuoteThey are sadistic. They're dishonourable. Seriously, where is the honour in hiding behind a cloaking device or using massively advanced weaponry.

Again, where is the honor in humans wearing camouflage, perched in trees using high powered scope rifles to take out an unsuspecting deer? Yet those humans (most) still have moral and honorable codes.

QuoteThere isn't any. The Predators are intergalactic big game hunters who enjoy hunting and killing. Sometimes that might mean throwing those advantages away so they can get even bigger kicks out of a fight but that's still sadism imho. And that's the way I like my Predators. Not being Perry's Yautja.

I like my Predators medium-rare, with a side of roasted potatoes.  ;D

In all seriousness, I can get that. Cheers!

Corporal Hicks

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 02:23:49 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 01:44:51 PM
But there's a difference between hunting people and hunting animals

To us, not to Yautja I suspect.

Greyback was willing to acknowledge Harrigan's success. I can't say I see anyone throwing a tiger a pistol or anything.

QuoteIf they were truly taking pleasure in inflicting pain, they would draw all their kills out. Tie them up. Cut them. Burn them. Make incisions. Sever limbs than cauterize. You get what I'm saying.  ;D

Sadistic doesn't immediately equate to torturer. We've seen quick kills, we've seen drawn out conflicts, we've seen tormenting. A kill is a kill. We've seen different levels of satisfaction around different kills. They don't take a trophy from everyone. It doesn't mean they don't enjoy each kill. 

QuoteAgain, where is the honor in humans wearing camouflage, perched in trees using high powered scope rifles to take out an unsuspecting deer? Yet those humans (most) still have moral and honorable codes.

Granted, I'm not versed in the sports hunting community but do they actually make a big deal about how honourable they are? That's not something that I can say is something that is equated to sports hunters as people tie to the Yautja.

TheSailingRabbit

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 02:23:49 PMI like my Predators medium-rare, with a side of roasted potatoes.  ;D

I don't imagine that to be very juicy.

Voodoo Magic

Voodoo Magic

#39
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 02:33:49 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 02:23:49 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 01:44:51 PM
But there's a difference between hunting people and hunting animals

To us, not to Yautja I suspect.

Greyback was willing to acknowledge Harrigan's success. I can't say I see anyone throwing a tiger a pistol or anything.

Ahem.



;D

Quote
QuoteIf they were truly taking pleasure in inflicting pain, they would draw all their kills out. Tie them up. Cut them. Burn them. Make incisions. Sever limbs than cauterize. You get what I'm saying.  ;D

Sadistic doesn't immediately equate to torturer. We've seen quick kills, we've seen drawn out conflicts, we've seen tormenting. A kill is a kill. We've seen different levels of satisfaction around different kills. They don't take a trophy from everyone. It doesn't mean they don't enjoy each kill.

I was responding to you saying Predators taking pleasure in inflicting pain (not kills) and challenging that. If Predators did take pleasure from inflicting pain, they would most likely act differently during the hunt. Stab or shoot to maime, not to kill.  Like -just shooting from the hip here- blow Blaine's leg completely off, and listen to Blaine scream in pain as Mac tries to stop him from bleeding to death, and just revel in the screams.

Of course the Predator takes pleasure in the kill. Every sports hunter does. They're just not sadistic to inflict the most slow, long-lasting painful and agonizing death possible.

Quote
QuoteAgain, where is the honor in humans wearing camouflage, perched in trees using high powered scope rifles to take out an unsuspecting deer? Yet those humans (most) still have moral and honorable codes.

Granted, I'm not versed in the sports hunting community but do they actually make a big deal about how honourable they are? That's not something that I can say is something that is equated to sports hunters as people tie to the Yautja.

Yeah, the parent will teach their child to respect nature and respect their prey. If it's not a killshot, don't let the creature bleed out in pain. Kill it immediately. Never shoot a pregnant animal or a youngling. You see that fish, it's too young, throw it back. And so on. There's honor to them. They even see mounting the animal's head on your wall as preserving the animal's legacy.

There's a lot of websites you can find all about being honorable hunters. I don't want to link to any, because I prefer not to promote it, but they're easy to find.




Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Feb 13, 2019, 02:55:04 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 02:23:49 PMI like my Predators medium-rare, with a side of roasted potatoes.  ;D

I don't imagine that to be very juicy.

Well certainly not as juicy as rabbit!   ;D

Corporal Hicks

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 13, 2019, 03:26:29 PM
was responding to you saying Predators taking pleasure in inflicting pain (not kills) and challenging that. If Predators did take pleasure from inflicting pain, they would most likely act differently during the hunt. Stab or shoot to maime, not to kill.  Like -just shooting from the hip here- blow Blaine's leg completely off, and listen to Blaine scream in pain as Mac tries to stop him from bleeding to death, and just revel in the screams.

Of course the Predator takes pleasure in the kill. Every sports hunter does. They're just not sadistic to inflict the most slow, long-lasting painful and agonizing death possible.

It's not an all or nothing to the kill. Some kills/hunts are drawn out, some are not. Regardless, they're not exactly painless either. Not all kills have to be some drawn out or agonizing to be sadistic. Granted, it maybe getting into the realms of what we consider personally sadistic but CH is very much intended to be your "classic" representation of that.

QuoteYeah, the parent will teach their child to respect nature and respect their prey. If it's not a killshot, don't let the creature bleed out in pain. Kill it immediately. Never shoot a pregnant animal or a youngling. You see that fish, it's too young, throw it back. And so on. There's honor to them. They even see mounting the animal's head on your wall as preserving the animal's legacy.

I just don't see that as honourable. That's just strikes me as being smart in ensuring their prey actually sticks around. If you go around killing all the young or the pregnant, the species dies out. I don't know - maybe I'm just wrapped up in this concept of honour as a fair fight or being "right."

That just doesn't equate to the Predators in the first films for me.

Samhain13

Samhain13

#41
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 13, 2019, 04:28:15 PM
That's just strikes me as being smart in ensuring their prey actually sticks around. If you go around killing all the young or the pregnant, the species dies out.

Its not like Pussyface could accidentally endangers the whole species during anything he did on his hunt. Leona would have died by the self-destruct anyway, he didn't seen to mind on that case as well as all the other innocents. Well in the novel personally killing a her was prohibited by the "ethics of the hunt".

JokersWarPig

Honor, morality and personality are all completely different things.

City Hunter has marked Harrigan as being the best/smartest game around, I figure the cemetary scene was the CH trying to get into Mikes head. Predators probably have a basic understanding of how human beings work, so psychologically attacking your enemy/game is probably a legitimate tactic for them.

It could have also been the City Hunter showing Harrigan he was gunning for him and his "clan". He could have wanted Mike on his A game so he could get the most challenge out of him that he possibly could have.

SM

Would skinning a man alive count as sadistic?

JokersWarPig

Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 07:30:49 PM
Would skinning a man alive count as sadistic?

To us it is, but to a Predator who views us the same way a hunter would view a bear it probably isn't.
Wait a minute, how do we really know anyone was skinned alive?

AvPGalaxy: About | Contact | Cookie Policy | Manage Cookie Settings | Privacy Policy | Legal Info
Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube Patreon RSS Feed
Contact: General Queries | Submit News