What made you want to tackle sci-fi again?
I hadn't done sci-fi for so long and I enjoyed doing it. Plus, when it comes to the Alien world, no one else had addressed the origin question and I thought that was interesting to tackle. Prometheus evolved into a whole other universe. You've got a person [Noomi Rapace's Elizabeth Shaw] with a head in a bag [ Michael Fassbender's David] that functions and has an IQ of 350. It can explain to her how to put the head back on the body and she's gonna think about that long and hard because, once the head is back on his body, he's dangerous.
So that's the sequel?
[Laughs] I wish it was that easy. They're going off to paradise but it could be the most savage, horrible place. Who are the Engineers?
http://latino-review.com/2012/10/11/ridley-scott-confirms-blade-runner-2-talks-prometheus-sequel/ (http://latino-review.com/2012/10/11/ridley-scott-confirms-blade-runner-2-talks-prometheus-sequel/)
Interesting way to get the ball rolling on the story I guess.
Harrison Ford's character was a replicant?
QuoteIt can explain to her how to put the head back on the body and she's gonna think about that long and hard because, once the head is back on his body, he's dangerous.
I am not sold on the idea of David being dangerous. Everything he does in the film is in pursuit of Weyland's goal. Sure, he has his own quirks and nuances, but not a single one of his actions betrays any kind of 'personal' agenda. If such a character aspect is implied then it is not expressed on screen very effectively.
I'd describe David as naive and inquisitive. Hyper intelligent whilst childlike. I think he's potentially dangerous because he doesn't have the Asimov laws that most other film androids appear to have. He'll do things because the outcome could be interesting. Unfortunately David's had a bad tutor in Weyland and that might be hard to shake off.
I'd put that head in a jar.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.tinypic.com%2Fu8xf7.jpg&hash=9d6179128dc135f64c43ff6fff45ebc89ff74ef3)
Although I take it that without Papa Weyland, David has free will.
He has no reason to directly harm her, anyways. I mean, sure, he'll definitely put her in harm's way, even directly betray her to pursue his interests, but he'd never just attack her for no reason. Now that Weyland is gone, his own curiosity is what will drive him. I always like to think that the only reason David warned Shaw about the Engineer was because he knew she was his only hope of being extracted, not because he simply wanted to preserve her life.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Oct 12, 2012, 11:10:22 AM
Although I take it that without Papa Weyland, David has free will.
And I doubt that free will comes with a conscience.
Quote from: Space Sweeper on Oct 12, 2012, 11:15:33 AMI mean, sure, he'll definitely put her in harm's way, even directly betray her to pursue his interests
That's the thing though - I don't get the impression that he has his own interests. Maybe someone can point it out to me, but to my mind everything David does is in service of Weyland's goals. The only subterfuge he really shows is directed at Vickers, and that was no doubt at Weyland's direction also.
He's just curious.
Curiosity killed the cat.
Quote from: Space Sweeper on Oct 12, 2012, 11:15:33 AM
Quote from: whiterabbit on Oct 12, 2012, 11:10:22 AM
Although I take it that without Papa Weyland, David has free will.
And I doubt that free will comes with a conscience.
Exactly. Was David programed with a conscience? Some sort of artificial protocol? For example when asked by Shaw, "What happens when weyland is not around to program you"; David says "I suppose I'll be free". Shaw responds with "you want that". To which David then says "want", "not a concept I'm familiar with, that being said, doesn't everyone want their parents dead?"
There appears to be no conscience there but does that mean he can't grow one? Also, is that something that can be learned by a machine? I think that is important to whether or not to screw his head back onto his body. A robot that does not know why he wants something, yet obviously does "want" things. It's a dilemma that terminators face after completing a mission to which the answer is deactivation. Yet there appears to be no mission to complete once Weyland is dead. Which is why David had to have his head torn off plot wise. He wouldn't need anyone's help otherwise. Which would have made Shaw expendable in my opinion.
David mentions that something is "From a movie I like". He obviously has a concept of 'like'. Maybe he has a conscience of sorts. I'd prefer it if he did.
Cal seems to have a conscience. She's so moody and she thought she was a human and got all shitty about being a robot.
Quote from: samoht on Oct 12, 2012, 01:03:10 PM
David mentions that something is "From a movie I like". He obviously has a concept of 'like'. Maybe he has a conscience of sorts. I'd prefer it if he did.
Cal seems to have a conscience. She's so moody and she thought she was a human and got all shitty about being a robot.
although, i like winona ryder, she was the worst robot ever. i saw none robotic behaviour in her acting.
Yea, supposedly he can't, or is it doesn't "want" to be disappointed. Yet it is clear he understands what it means to be disappointed and what to want something is. I guess it all falls back to, what is a soul. Clearly as children most of us are taught that killing is wrong. For example. However that education or train of thought is quickly undone in military training. So what does it mean to have a soul? To feel guilty? Is that enough?
Quote from: Kol on Oct 12, 2012, 01:27:39 PM
Quote from: samoht on Oct 12, 2012, 01:03:10 PM
David mentions that something is "From a movie I like". He obviously has a concept of 'like'. Maybe he has a conscience of sorts. I'd prefer it if he did.
Cal seems to have a conscience. She's so moody and she thought she was a human and got all shitty about being a robot.
although, i like winona ryder, she was the worst robot ever. i saw none robotic behaviour in her acting.
Well what else did you expect from a robot designed and built by other robots. :laugh: :P
Quote from: LarsVader on Oct 12, 2012, 11:30:49 AM
He's just curious.
Curiosity killed the cat.
Curiosity could have also killed the Cats friend, do none of you remember when David opened the door, without having any idea about what was behind it? Or how he picked Hollaway of all people to test the Black Goo on (probably because Hollaway was cruel to him, meaning it was a choice and wasn't just based on specific orders) just saying :/
Quote from: Kol on Oct 12, 2012, 01:27:39 PM
although, i like winona ryder, she was the worst robot ever. i saw none robotic behaviour in her acting.
What? Her acting
bled robotic.
Quote from: LarsVader on Oct 12, 2012, 11:30:49 AM
He's just curious.
Curiosity killed the cat.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-xrPPIvG-g04%2FTyn8SOhi8HI%2FAAAAAAAAbeU%2FMn37WEeASm0%2Fs1600%2Falien01.jpg&hash=e7f719e44e0c936b4e8e63be0f980187d3f8ec79)
nope still kickin somewhere.
Not going to last long if he gets his ass to Mahs.
Quote from: Byohzrd on Oct 12, 2012, 02:07:59 PM
Quote from: LarsVader on Oct 12, 2012, 11:30:49 AM
He's just curious.
Curiosity killed the cat.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-xrPPIvG-g04%2FTyn8SOhi8HI%2FAAAAAAAAbeU%2FMn37WEeASm0%2Fs1600%2Falien01.jpg&hash=e7f719e44e0c936b4e8e63be0f980187d3f8ec79)
nope still kickin somewhere.
Oh my god, what if Jonesy got all those scientists to bring back Ripley cause she missed her, and she's the reason we got that movie! JOOONESY!!
Quote from: Byohzrd on Oct 12, 2012, 02:07:59 PM
Quote from: LarsVader on Oct 12, 2012, 11:30:49 AM
He's just curious.
Curiosity killed the cat.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-xrPPIvG-g04%2FTyn8SOhi8HI%2FAAAAAAAAbeU%2FMn37WEeASm0%2Fs1600%2Falien01.jpg&hash=e7f719e44e0c936b4e8e63be0f980187d3f8ec79)
nope still kickin somewhere.
We never did see what happened to him since Aliens. :'( I want a Jonesy sequel!
Quote from: Vickers on Oct 12, 2012, 05:38:55 PMWe never did see what happened to him since Aliens. :'( I want a Jonesy sequel!
He traveled back in time.
Spoiler
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Quote from: Laufey on Oct 12, 2012, 05:40:22 PM
Quote from: Vickers on Oct 12, 2012, 05:38:55 PMWe never did see what happened to him since Aliens. :'( I want a Jonesy sequel!
He traveled back in time.
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F51KEZvqOM1L.jpg&hash=bee0fe52f7183030d1e5c2ab54a9aaf2f9e9ee07)
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No Blade Runner sequel please. :-\
Quote from: Gilfryd on Oct 12, 2012, 06:27:56 PM
No Blade Runner sequel please. :-\
I would agree, but seeing as how Ridley hasn't lost his touch (I.e. Prometheus) I wouldn't mind him tackling it, just as long as they get a good writer, cause even Ridley can't make an exceptional movie from a bad script (I.e. Prometheus).
What I mean is the directing was good in Prometheus, but the story was meh.
QuoteWho are the Engineers?
Wasnt that the point of the first movie?
Quote from: HUGZZ on Oct 12, 2012, 01:31:09 PM[..] do none of you remember when David opened the door, without having any idea about what was behind it? Or how he picked Hollaway of all people to test the Black Goo on (probably because Hollaway was cruel to him, meaning it was a choice and wasn't just based on specific orders) just saying
Remember that he poisons Holloway
straight after Weyland tells him to try harder. Everything that he does can just as easily be interpreted as carrying out Weyland's agenda, not his own.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Oct 12, 2012, 11:00:46 PM
Quote from: HUGZZ on Oct 12, 2012, 01:31:09 PM[..] do none of you remember when David opened the door, without having any idea about what was behind it? Or how he picked Hollaway of all people to test the Black Goo on (probably because Hollaway was cruel to him, meaning it was a choice and wasn't just based on specific orders) just saying
Remember that he poisons Holloway straight after Weyland tells him to try harder. Everything that he does can just as easily be interpreted as carrying out Weyland's agenda, not his own.
I'm in agreement for the most part. Though the line: "Doesn't everyone want their parents dead?" is a spanner in the works regarding David being completely obedient throughout the whole film. Unless you have any thoughts on that, Chrispachi?
David has a degree of autonomy. He follows Weyland's orders but he has his own mindset and morality, or lack thereof. Ash was the same. He had a directive, but there was a lot going on in his machine mind and in Ian Holm's riveting performance.
Weyland ordered him to test the black material on a human subject. Holloway had already gotten on his bad side. The twain met and David was able to combine business with pleasure.
David also had a good guess that taking Weyland and co. to the Engineer could lead to their demise - something he was clearly okay with - but it was orders. Once again, the twain meets. He's a complex character.
Plus it seems that they toyed with the idea that David admires the engineers and finds himself an equal to them and thinks he is better than humans. It was in the first drafts of the script. Abd even in the movie he gave this impression when discovering all the little things. So they might toy with this idea, have David extremely curious about the engineers. And now that they are heading there, who knows what he is capable of to please them, or learn more about them
I think that's certainly still implicit in the final film.
He's fascinated by them and deeply resents humanity and its failings.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Oct 12, 2012, 01:30:36 PM
Yea, supposedly he can't, or is it doesn't "want" to be disappointed. Yet it is clear he understands what it means to be disappointed and what to want something is. I guess it all falls back to, what is a soul. Clearly as children most of us are taught that killing is wrong. For example. However that education or train of thought is quickly undone in military training. So what does it mean to have a soul? To feel guilty? Is that enough?
Quote from: Kol on Oct 12, 2012, 01:27:39 PM
Quote from: samoht on Oct 12, 2012, 01:03:10 PM
David mentions that something is "From a movie I like". He obviously has a concept of 'like'. Maybe he has a conscience of sorts. I'd prefer it if he did.
Cal seems to have a conscience. She's so moody and she thought she was a human and got all shitty about being a robot.
although, i like winona ryder, she was the worst robot ever. i saw none robotic behaviour in her acting.
Well what else did you expect from a robot designed and built by other robots. :laugh: :P
i agree, they only made robots/replicants more human as they went on, and also supposedly the blade runner universe is now linked to the alien universe, either way, they are keeping it like the old sci fi, so i am very happy, go ridley go
If they build on his creepy/semi-harmful robot infatuation with her into a one way romance I'd be totally cool with it.
That and better monsters, I want my f**king creature feature. Less Neville Page looking at animal assholes for inspiration to design boring ed wood squids and a concept team "exhausted" with redesigning the engineers when they've been 90% designed by geegs since 1979.
Word.
More SJ culture and science/tech as well.
I'd also like a subplot of the sj's relationship with the creatures they skin to make their suits, why they do it, etc.
Getting back to the topic of David 8, I think he'll be our guide through Shaw and his journey into Paradise. He's intuitive of the sj tech and he may be able to presume/explain some things about the world they are in to Shaw and the audience.
Shaw and Davids head are off to see the wonderful wizard of Oz. err horrible engineer of paradise I meant to say.
I think I'd like to see another director make this movie and oversee the writing.
I think somebody else can do a better overall job to be honest.
I'd like to keep it in Ridley's hands- everybody on board is aware of what divided fans by now. Give him another chance now that he's no longer blind.
I just hope P2 winds up having more in common with a Polish sci-fi animation called Chronopolis than Wiz-o-Oz.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Oct 13, 2012, 12:28:18 PM
Shaw and Davids head are off to see the wonderful wizard of Oz. err horrible engineer of paradise I meant to say.
I like Ridley and I heard he's a nice man, but he comes across a bit arrogant at times. Maybe he only comes across that way and he's actually not.
All in all I don't think meddling studios (especially Fox) have ever helped matters. I think there is probably some cases where interference has lead to a positive outcome.
Fox certainly aren't selling off their franchise any time soon; so, P2 ultimately remains in their hands.
Yeah too bad.
The next Terminator has the potential to be good. It's in the hands of Annapurna pictures who have financed stuff like The Master, Lawless, True Grit and a bunch of others.
Be good if the ALIEN franchise fell into the hands of a studio who gave a shit about quality.
I want David to question his own existence in Prometheus 2 and come to the conclusion that if he sacrifices himself to the black goo or some other form of it, he will become the perfect organism. By combining machine with living biology i always liked the idea that the Alien from "Alien" got its mechanical look from an Android. The Engineers never truly mastered the art of the perfect organism (The Alien) because the had other ideas for the black goo... it was David that opened pandora's box.
Well that's the root i want Prometheus 2 to take.
I'd like to see an original facehugger cameo. :P (Doesnt even need to "hug" anybody.. he can just be seen behind a glass... as an example of one of the engineer's many bioweapons)
Quote from: Kimo on Oct 13, 2012, 01:44:44 PM
I want David to question his own existence in Prometheus 2 and come to the conclusion that if he sacrifices himself to the black goo or some other form of it, he will become the perfect organism. By combining machine with living biology i always liked the idea that the Alien from "Alien" got its mechanical look from an Android. The Engineers never truly mastered the art of the perfect organism (The Alien) because the had other ideas for the black goo... it was David that opened pandora's box.
Well that's the root i want Prometheus 2 to take.
Yeah that would be cool if he had a hand in creating the perfect organism. I would be cool with that since he's an interesting character portrayed by a quality actor.
I also like the idea previously stated by someone else of him becoming infatuated with Shaw. It would be very interesting character wise since he hasn't experienced love, affection or sex. Could lead to a new spin on Ash attacking Ripley if David was to attempt to rape Shaw. It's highly unlikely they'd bring this idea to screen though since I don't think Fox are especially no holds barred with their stories due to commerce and profit margins.
I'd love to see David Fincher get another crack at the franchise...
Quote from: Promethean Fire on Oct 13, 2012, 07:34:26 PM
I'd love to see David Fincher get another crack at the franchise...
That would be very interesting indeed. Likely? Probably not.
Ridley Scott talks horseshit pretty much nowadays...
Quote from: tmjhur on Oct 13, 2012, 07:38:15 PM
Quote from: Promethean Fire on Oct 13, 2012, 07:34:26 PM
I'd love to see David Fincher get another crack at the franchise...
That would be very interesting indeed. Likely? Probably not.
Not likely in the slightest. Fincher is probably completely sick of hearing about his time on Alien 3.
I don't think Ridley will return. Whether this is a good thing or not, depends entirely on your opinion on whether you would like something fresh and new. Ridley would not repeat himself wheras a fanboy director would probably be too tempted to return to the tropes given the fun of playing in that sandbox.
I think they probably need a middle man.
Someone who loves and respects the past aesthetic and designs but also someone who cares about good dialogue, characters and story.
Quote from: tmjhur on Oct 13, 2012, 07:59:46 PM
I think they probably need a middle man.
Someone who loves and respects the past aesthetic and designs but also someone who cares about good dialogue, characters and story.
Isn't that called a Producer? :laugh: Seems a good fix for a ruling overlord Director with unlimited power like Ridley. A good producer with the balls to check certain ideas and make sure the film meets a basic standard of quality.
Pair that with Ridley's visuals and the cast and money behind the productions, and holy shit we might get another Alien...
Offcourse paradise the jockey was refering to isnt some green flowery shizzle.
It will look terrible. ;D
My guess David played the whole show,said something to the engineer to challenge him.
he was on that ship for a long time...in a galaxy far away.
Quote from: RagingDragon on Oct 13, 2012, 08:05:55 PM
Quote from: tmjhur on Oct 13, 2012, 07:59:46 PM
I think they probably need a middle man.
Someone who loves and respects the past aesthetic and designs but also someone who cares about good dialogue, characters and story.
Isn't that called a Producer? :laugh: Seems a good fix for a ruling overlord Director with unlimited power like Ridley. A good producer with the balls to check certain ideas and make sure the film meets a basic standard of quality.
Pair that with Ridley's visuals and the cast and money behind the productions, and holy shit we might get another Alien...
Doesn't Ridley just go along with what the studio want anyway? He has track record of doing that anyway.
Alien seems to be the perfect example of a movie where the producers rewrites actually enhanced a movie.
Hollywood really needs a good dose of gritty 70's cinema again. AH memories. Well not actual memories as I wasn't born then.
Producers didn't rule the roost in '70s Hollywood. Or rather, they worked with the auteurs and supported them. There were a few wunderkinds, like Bert Schneider and Bob Evans, but most often even those guys were there to service and champion talent. By the end of the '70s a studio mentality was reasserting itself, which led to the hybrid package of auteur and studio that became Alien.
I have never gotten the sense that Ridley just went along with the studio on this film. If he had I suspect it would've been something much safer and boring - more classic alien, minimal jockey. This was his project. And on Alien he had to fight them not only for key elements of O'Bannon's screenplay - the space jockey, etc. - but also H.R. Giger.
Well he has a track record of cutting his films to please the studio. I think basically Fox keep financing his movies so he's happy enough to compromise certain elements in order to keep the relationship going.
One of the things that disappointed me was the lack of Jockey in Prometheus. The Engineer shows up in the last 10 minutes. And the rest of the film was just exchanging the previous creature designs for lesser ones. Although I thought the snake thing really fit in with Giger's concepts.
As the honest trailers thing said, Prometheus is basically ALIEN with the best bits (I.E the queen etc) taken out.
Quote from: tmjhur on Oct 13, 2012, 12:33:49 PM
I think I'd like to see another director make this movie and oversee the writing.
I think somebody else can do a better overall job to be honest.
That's me out then. Don't want to see anyone else f**king about with Ridley's baby again.
Quote from: tmjhur on Oct 13, 2012, 10:31:53 PM
As the honest trailers thing said, Prometheus is basically ALIEN with the best bits (I.E the queen etc) taken out.
Gack! Excuse me, a little bit of sick came up.
What do you mean, again?
Alien didn't pop out of his ass fully formed. It was the product of a glorious, glorious gangbang of creativity.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 14, 2012, 12:19:28 AM
What do you mean, again?
Alien didn't pop out of his ass fully formed. It was the product of a glorious, glorious gangbang of creativity.
This is a pile of truth. Prometheus is what happens when you take every creative element in
Alien besides Ridley Scott, flush it down the toilet, and then give Giger a slap on the ass before production finishes.
Plenty of A-list directors have enjoyed long lasting relationships with certain studios - just ask Eastwood, Lynch, Burton, Woody Allen etc...
When addressing Prometheus, almost everybody was bitching bigtime about how Fox would destroy Scotts vision, they would kill it with a PG13 rating, cut it in the editing room and bla bla... It turns out they pretty much gave Scott and the writers everything they wanted, supported the production 100% and launched an ace pre-release marketing campaign that deserves to be studied and imitated by other studios.
It's too bad though that Scott isn't interested in doing an extended cut of the film - agreed on that one. But that doesn't in any way convince me that Prometheus 2/Paradise would suit another director better. I hope Ridley returns. :)
Quote from: whiterabbit on Oct 12, 2012, 12:55:50 PM
To which David then says "want", "not a concept I'm familiar with, that being said, doesn't everyone want their parents dead?"
Assuming they're still alive, I would have paid good money to see the looks on the faces of Lindelof's parents when they heard that line... It's still the most WTF one in the entire film. Who the hell wants "their parents dead", outside of children who've endured abusive relationships?
QuoteThere appears to be no conscience there but does that mean he can't grow one?
Yes. 'He' is a machine. Machines do what they're designed to. There was even less reason to create the David 8 series with the capacity to develop a conscience than the nonsensical ability to 'feel' anger/etcetera.
Especially when David 8 is meant to be less advanced than Ash or, especially, Bishop.
QuoteAlso, is that something that can be learned by a machine?
Not really... Nor should there be any need to. A machine runs by directives. That's
it. Conscience is a form of directive hard-wired into our relatively analogue-based organic selves. A genuine machine wouldn't need one. To David 8, it would simply be just another directive.
QuoteI think that is important to whether or not to screw his head back onto his body. A robot that does not know why he wants something, yet obviously does "want" things. It's a dilemma that terminators face after completing a mission to which the answer is deactivation. Yet there appears to be no mission to complete once Weyland is dead. Which is why David had to have his head torn off plot wise. He wouldn't need anyone's help otherwise. Which would have made Shaw expendable in my opinion.
Actually, '
Terminator 2' handled it more or less perfectly, by having the Terminator state, point-blank, that it absolutely didn't care, one way or another. It had the 'desire' (directive) to complete an assigned mission. That's the
only thing which matters to a machine.
Anything more than this and we enter the world of needless anthropomorphism, which is where the likes of the '
Battlestar Galactica' remake Cylons came from. The writers of which eventually admitted that they had no real idea what to do with them, beyond making them religious purely for the sake of making them 'interesting'.
And, sure, a sequel could represent David 8 going like that, but it wouldn't make very much logical sense. :)
Quote from: Kimo on Oct 13, 2012, 01:44:44 PM
I want David to question his own existence in Prometheus 2 and come to the conclusion that if he sacrifices himself to the black goo or some other form of it, he will become the perfect organism. By combining machine with living biology i always liked the idea that the Alien from "Alien" got its mechanical look from an Android. The Engineers never truly mastered the art of the perfect organism (The Alien) because the had other ideas for the black goo... it was David that opened pandora's box.
The black ooze reconfigures organic DNA. David 8 has no organic DNA to reconfigure... If the stuff was able to change synthetic material, then it would have been changing the facility, itself, after spilling all over the floor and being left like that for hours.
Quote from: Eva on Oct 14, 2012, 12:41:00 AM
Plenty of A-list directors have enjoyed long lasting relationships with certain studios - just ask Eastwood, Lynch, Burton, Woody Allen etc...
When addressing Prometheus, almost everybody was bitching bigtime about how Fox would destroy Scotts vision, they would kill it with a PG13 rating, cut it in the editing room and bla bla... It turns out they pretty much gave Scott and the writers everything they wanted, supported the production 100% and launched an ace pre-release marketing campaign that deserves to be studied and imitated by other studios.
It's too bad though that Scott isn't interested in doing an extended cut of the film - agreed on that one. But that doesn't in any way convince me that Prometheus 2/Paradise would suit another director better. I hope Ridley returns. :)
Lynch? He has to scramble together funding for every movie he makes. The only time he cut a deal with a production company was when Dino De Laurentis agreed to finance Blue Velvet if he directed Dune first.
But I truly believe Fox tampered with Prometheus a good bit. The film is clearly edited to be 2 hours on the nose as every shot is cut so quick and it's also basically a PG-13 except for the C section scene. Anyway in the end I'm sure Ridley was happy enough to oblige the men with the money so that he can make Prometheus 2 and whatever else.
Jon Spaihts even said recently that the idea of ditching the xenomorphs came from very very high up in Fox. I'm all up for something new but I think you have to build off something that works and is known to be good as a foundation.
Who's to ultimately blame for the problems, who knows? There were quite a number of fundamental issues with the film (which we don't need to go over for the millionth time).
QuoteBut I truly believe Fox tampered with Prometheus a good bit.
Judicious use of "believe".
QuoteIt's still the most WTF one in the entire film. Who the hell wants "their parents dead", outside of children who've endured abusive relationships?
Maybe you've hit on the nail on the head there.
Quote from: RagingDragon on Oct 14, 2012, 12:34:22 AM
Quote from: SiL on Oct 14, 2012, 12:19:28 AM
What do you mean, again?
Alien didn't pop out of his ass fully formed. It was the product of a glorious, glorious gangbang of creativity.
This is a pile of truth. Prometheus is what happens when you take every creative element in Alien besides Ridley Scott, flush it down the toilet, and then give Giger a slap on the ass before production finishes.
No, that's Aliens. Or Fifty Shades of Shite as I prefer to call it.
Quote from: tmjhur on Oct 14, 2012, 02:03:05 AM
Quote from: Eva on Oct 14, 2012, 12:41:00 AM
Plenty of A-list directors have enjoyed long lasting relationships with certain studios - just ask Eastwood, Lynch, Burton, Woody Allen etc...
When addressing Prometheus, almost everybody was bitching bigtime about how Fox would destroy Scotts vision, they would kill it with a PG13 rating, cut it in the editing room and bla bla... It turns out they pretty much gave Scott and the writers everything they wanted, supported the production 100% and launched an ace pre-release marketing campaign that deserves to be studied and imitated by other studios.
It's too bad though that Scott isn't interested in doing an extended cut of the film - agreed on that one. But that doesn't in any way convince me that Prometheus 2/Paradise would suit another director better. I hope Ridley returns. :)
Lynch? He has to scramble together funding for every movie he makes. The only time he cut a deal with a production company was when Dino De Laurentis agreed to finance Blue Velvet if he directed Dune first.
But I truly believe Fox tampered with Prometheus a good bit. The film is clearly edited to be 2 hours on the nose as every shot is cut so quick and it's also basically a PG-13 except for the C section scene. Anyway in the end I'm sure Ridley was happy enough to oblige the men with the money so that he can make Prometheus 2 and whatever else.
Jon Spaihts even said recently that the idea of ditching the xenomorphs came from very very high up in Fox. I'm all up for something new but I think you have to build off something that works and is known to be good as a foundation.
Who's to ultimately blame for the problems, who knows? There were quite a number of fundamental issues with the film (which we don't need to go over for the millionth time).
In the making of documentary it was stated that every movie is filmed for a pg13 if possible. It apears that this was filmed to be pg13 but got an are anyway and ridly dint want to make any more cuts.
Weyland was certainly neglectful of David. But even so, the whole "every child harbors a desire to kill the parent" thing is an old, old saw of psychology. Goes way back, and it's largely figurative, of course - many children often desiring to be better than the generation before them and 'best' them, or in the case of a spiteful adolescent, wanting to totally disassociate from them. I laughed when David brought it up; I thought it was a great line. And of course, in David's case he did want his 'parent' dead. Shaw didn't want hers dead, but that's the difference in their upbringing and mentality.
I don't agree at all with the argument that the synthetics in the franchise do not have emotions. I think that's nonsense. Ash had a very complex inner life going on in Ian Holm's performance, all sorts of skittering, insidious neuroses and nuttiness. Bishop was more placid, but clearly grew fond of his companions. And Call was 'more human than human' to the point of being very self-righteous; Ripley 8 scoffed at her and said "no human is that humane." But the mystery of the mechanical person and their feelings has been a long-running fascination not just with this franchise but with Ridley Scott's other work. And David, more than any of them, is fully fleshed out with a character arc. I think looking at it from a strict sci-fi fan perspective and saying the robots can't possibly have emotions is fooling ourselves. Every single robot in these films has had those.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on Oct 14, 2012, 07:19:04 AM
Weyland was certainly neglectful of David. But even so, the whole "every child harbors a desire to kill the parent" thing is an old, old saw of psychology. Goes way back, and it's largely figurative, of course - many children often desiring to be better than the generation before them and 'best' them, or in the case of a spiteful adolescent, wanting to totally disassociate from them. I laughed when David brought it up; I thought it was a great line. And of course, in David's case he did want his 'parent' dead. Shaw didn't want hers dead, but that's the difference in their upbringing and mentality.
I don't agree at all with the argument that the synthetics in the franchise do not have emotions. I think that's nonsense. Ash had a very complex inner life going on in Ian Holm's performance, all sorts of skittering, insidious neuroses and nuttiness. Bishop was more placid, but clearly grew fond of his companions. And Call was 'more human than human' to the point of being very self-righteous; Ripley 8 scoffed at her and said "no human is that humane." But the mystery of the mechanical person and their feelings has been a long-running fascination not just with this franchise but with Ridley Scott's other work. And David, more than any of them, is fully fleshed out with a character arc. I think looking at it from a strict sci-fi fan perspective and saying the robots can't possibly have emotions is fooling ourselves. Every single robot in these films has had those.
I think it stems from the fact that they are portrayed as being rather emotionless (speaking of Ash, Bishop and David). They don't laugh, scream, shout or cry... They are very artifical in that way. So for me, my interpretation of what's on screen is that they don't have emotions - although they are programmed to reproduce body language e.g smiling, frowning etc.
QuoteIt's still the most WTF one in the entire film. Who the hell wants "their parents dead", outside of children who've endured abusive relationships?
Bratty kids and angry teenagers, which is what David seemed like in some ways (very childlike). But I don't think he meant most people
literally want their parents dead (that just sounded like David's sarcy robot humour to me), but he did seem to have some resentment towards Weyland from what I could gather.
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Oct 14, 2012, 01:49:07 AM
Who the hell wants "their parents dead", outside of children who've endured abusive relationships?
Vickers ;D
Quote from: Virgil on Oct 12, 2012, 11:13:26 PMI'm in agreement for the most part. Though the line: "Doesn't everyone want their parents dead?" is a spanner in the works regarding David being completely obedient throughout the whole film. Unless you have any thoughts on that, Chrispachi?
Good point - that certainly hints at some kind of existential angst on David's part, but IMO it could just as easily be interpreted as a simple robot spouting generalizations from a philosophy text. David only shows any real ambivalence towards Vickers, and she is not holding the reins.
David does 'nasty' things but shows no personal interest in their outcomes. He steals an urn and infects Holloway, but then drugs the pregnant Shaw and orders that she be put into stasis. If he was at all curious about his little experiment then surely he would not of had Shaw frozen to be returned to Earth - he would of let things play out. Instead he follows Weyland Yutani rule 0001.
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Oct 14, 2012, 01:49:07 AM
Assuming they're still alive, I would have paid good money to see the looks on the faces of Lindelof's parents when they heard that line... It's still the most WTF one in the entire film. Who the hell wants "their parents dead", outside of children who've endured abusive relationships?
With the risk of getting this wrong (I haven't seen any of the special features, nor heard the commentary track yet), I think that's a misinterpretation of why David utters that line to Shaw. I'm somewhat on SpeedyMaxx's boat with this line being used to hint at a general and eternal psychological character trait of the human race.
Imo, David throws these little verbal gems at various characters during the film, partly to see their reaction and develop a better understanding of the human condition... and at occasions, it seems he finds
some enjoyment by taking our weaknesses and failures as a race/civilization and rub our faces in them. His exchange with Vickers in the corridor about Weyland, his 'A
superior species - no doubt.' line when they enter the Juggernaut control room and others...
Btw, this theme is certainly no stranger to Ridley, remember? ;)
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Quote from: tmjhur on Oct 14, 2012, 02:03:05 AM
Lynch? He has to scramble together funding for every movie he makes. The only time he cut a deal with a production company was when Dino De Laurentis agreed to finance Blue Velvet if he directed Dune first.
I think you misunderstood my remark. I'm addressing Lynchs long time collaboration with European production companies and distributors. His films don't make people millionaires overnight, but they are relatively cheap to make, the producers are fans of his work and style and everybody seems happy with the arrangement.
Quote from: Eva on Oct 14, 2012, 01:12:38 PM
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Oct 14, 2012, 01:49:07 AM
Assuming they're still alive, I would have paid good money to see the looks on the faces of Lindelof's parents when they heard that line... It's still the most WTF one in the entire film. Who the hell wants "their parents dead", outside of children who've endured abusive relationships?
With the risk of getting this wrong (I haven't seen any of the special features, nor heard the commentary track yet), I think that's a misinterpretation of why David utters that line to Shaw. I'm somewhat on SpeedyMaxx's boat with this line being used to hint at a general and eternal psychological character trait of the human race.
Imo, David throws these little verbal gems at various characters during the film, partly to see their reaction and develop a better understanding of the human condition... and at occasions, it seems he finds some enjoyment by taking our weaknesses and failures as a race/civilization and rub our faces in them. His exchange with Vickers in the corridor about Weyland, his 'A superior species - no doubt.' line when they enter the Juggernaut control room and others...
Btw, this theme is certainly no stranger to Ridley, remember? ;)
http://oi46.tinypic.com/2z8xk0k.jpg
Quote from: tmjhur on Oct 14, 2012, 02:03:05 AM
Lynch? He has to scramble together funding for every movie he makes. The only time he cut a deal with a production company was when Dino De Laurentis agreed to finance Blue Velvet if he directed Dune first.
I think you misunderstood my remark. I'm addressing Lynchs long time collaboration with European production companies and distributors. His films don't make people millionaires overnight, but they are relatively cheap to make, the producers are fans of his work and style and everybody seems happy with the arrangement.
Lets hope we get another film out of him anyway. Haven't heard his album, not really interested.
Quote from: Gash on Oct 14, 2012, 05:11:30 AM
Quote from: RagingDragon on Oct 14, 2012, 12:34:22 AM
This is a pile of truth. Prometheus is what happens when you take every creative element in Alien besides Ridley Scott, flush it down the toilet, and then give Giger a slap on the ass before production finishes.
No, that's Aliens. Or Fifty Shades of Shite as I prefer to call it.
Scott directed
Aliens now? Who knew!
Take every element of A L I E N besides Ridley Scott, and you end up with Aliens.
But if Aliens retains the element of Ridley Scott, how is it "other people" messing with his "baby" if he's apparently still there?
Quote from: SiL on Oct 14, 2012, 10:42:03 PM
But if Aliens retains the element of Ridley Scott, how is it "other people" messing with his "baby" if he's apparently still there?
Can you rephrase that? It's getting late and I've only had a sausage roll today.
Sure!
Your inexplicable desire to make a point of how much you dislike Aliens at every turn is past old, could you maybe it give it a friggin' rest?
Yeah sure, of course.
Ash had contempt for his fellow crew in Alien. Watching him throughout that film is an experience. Exasperation, fascination, admiration, hatred. He has emotions, just as the replicants of Blade Runner did, just as David does. They are not supposed to have them, according to "science,' but nonetheless they very clearly develop their own mindset and certain morality.
David is both acting within parameters and executing his own will. He takes Weyland and the others back to the Engineer and the juggernaut, knowing well what may happen. And the suggestion by Scott to look at Dirk Bogarde in The Servant is perfect; in that film, a scheming, manipulative butler takes full control of his employer's home and life. By the time Weyland and the humans have entered the orrery, David knows his way around everything, knows how to use the controls and is swanning about loving every moment - he has pictured this, and the moment has arrived, and whatever happens, he has turned the tables.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on Oct 15, 2012, 05:52:10 AMBy the time Weyland and the humans have entered the orrery, David knows his way around everything, knows how to use the controls and is swanning about loving every moment - he has pictured this, and the moment has arrived, and whatever happens, he has turned the tables.
I can't argue with that, a good point and well made. You have swayed me a little.
Quote from: Kimo on Oct 13, 2012, 01:44:44 PM
I want David to question his own existence in Prometheus 2 and come to the conclusion that if he sacrifices himself to the black goo or some other form of it, he will become the perfect organism. By combining machine with living biology i always liked the idea that the Alien from "Alien" got its mechanical look from an Android. The Engineers never truly mastered the art of the perfect organism (The Alien) because the had other ideas for the black goo... it was David that opened pandora's box.
QuoteThe black ooze reconfigures organic DNA. David 8 has no organic DNA to reconfigure... If the stuff was able to change synthetic material, then it would have been changing the facility, itself, after spilling all over the floor and being left like that for hours.
Yes that black goo on LV-422 (i think that is were Prometheus is set) changes organic DNA but who is to say when Shaw and David get to Paradise that they are other forms of black goo? Or since David has an high I.Q he can change the structure of the black goo to his own desire? Just an idea.
About Davids line about dead parents.
I dont have a problem with this because i think David is just seeing it wrong. Like he has spent a lot of time with Peter and Vickers before the events of Prometheus. He has probably picked up on the idea that Vickers hates Peter for not being proud of her, because it looks like peter wanted a son. Also David is not human so he will have trouble understanding how human emotions work... Like, in his mind or CPU he might think human death is apart of the cycle of life and death is something to be celebrated because death is natural. But because Peter wanted to live longer and Vickers had a problem with her dad he probably came to the conclusion that Vickers wanted her father dead. Then when David was watching Shaws dreams, he may of seen how much Shaw loved her father and how emotionally destroyed she was by the death of her father. I think this is why David said to Shaw "don't every child want their parents dead" because he was questioning hes own coding. I think David is fascinated by Shaw and wants to learn more from her because of her behavior. Later on in the film when Shaw go's and gets Davids head she says to him (something on these lines) you are just a robot u don't understand. Maybe David wants to understand?
David 8's no stranger to popular media, though. And certainly not the Internet (or whatever's replaced it). There's no reason for him to generalise and make assumptions, based on purely the Vickers/Weyland thing. He's not sheltered. He's got access to a ton of references about human behaviour - and probably a good few psychoanalytical programmes installed, so as to improve 'social blending' performance.
If David 8's really extrapolating behaviour based on only experience of Weyland/Vickers, then it really is a defective series. :)
Unless, as I've said before, David 8 was truly given the capacity to hate and so forth, as per the viral adverts. In which case, this sort of thing was alarmingly predictable.
I never said that David's only experience was based on Weyland/Vickers but i see were you are coming from.
For me he can watch all the TV he wants, but he will never truly understand what human emotion is because he cant experience it. He can read about it, but still he is not human and has no soul. So to me he must have some conflicts going on when processing data around him, especially when interacting with different humans.
To me David is thinking more like a Sociopath. Not because Weyland wanted him that way, but because he is a machine trying to act human who lacks moral judgement and character. (This is good enough for me for why he said them lines about dead parents.) If a human being is capable of acts of violence and strange behavior then i am sure a robot who is left to think for itself can end up with major issues on questioning his own sanity/coding.
Anyhow that's my take on this but everyone has they own options. :)
Weyland in his own words pretty much answered this. He made David in his own image so he would be perfect. David without a doubt is going to be a major douche bag.
He's robo-weyland. Weyland sold his crew down the shaft, so to would david. Weyland has a god aweful relationship with his daughter, so to would David. Weyland would do anything for immortality, so to will David.
I wonder when we will start to hear official word about the sequel?
Emotions are just chemical reactions to certain stimuli. They can be controlled, ignored, exaggerated, or eliminated altogether.
Having a 'soul' or not also shouldn't be the basis for any android argument. That's some wonderful Lindelof writing, there. I honestly thought that was a stupid thing for a man like Weyland to say.
I mean they want to portray him as this brilliant maverick scientist/businessman, Tony Stark-style, then he goes and says dumb shit like that. :-\ A soul, for crying out loud.
What's the problem with the word soul? It can be taken to mean someones essence or character, it doesn't have to have any religious or immortal significance. It's a figure of speech as much as anything - a way of highlighting that David isn't human, and might be better than human. Doesn't fly in the face of the way Weyland thinks really does it?
Or, if David ain't got no soul maybe he just can't sing. :P
Like the word 'epiphany', 'soul' has come to have a non-religious meaning too. Just like the word 'nightmare', with the 'mare' part meaning a monster that would throttle you in your sleep - doesn't mean people who use the word believe in the succubus, etc. Language is a malleable thing, and it's clear that Weyland is using 'soul' in the secular sense. After all, he doesn't believe in an afterlife.
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The plot of Prometheus 2.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Oct 17, 2012, 03:52:48 AM
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The plot of Prometheus 2.
Lol - very funny... :)
I think the point about the soul and emotion stuff is that Weyland is wrong... and Holloway is wrong too (well what he was worried about at first was true).
Weyland corp screwed up and David has been made "too real". His emotional understanding was able to develop a little over the 2.5 years and he was altered by Shaw's dream in a way where because he believed certain things based on his emotional understanding the artificial emotions began combining with his artificial neural network. David hopes he's not too real but he's slowly using his understanding of emotions to choose what he believes and become more real-- maybe against his wishes or knowledge. He doesn't want to become like humans but will become like the father he hates because of his programming and choices. It took artificial emotions that were separate at first + the advice he got from Shaw's dream to start gaining his free will. He tricked himself into thinking the emotions could be in his mind made him more real when Holloway questioned him about being a real boy and it brought them to life...
This is why he seems emotionally childlike. David's emotional understanding was there and it's now starting to turn him into "a real boy". He's just stuck in that child-like state (while some of the crew may also have emotional and ego based problems). He may be becoming more real than most of the crew and has a balance of logic and emotion. He has an ego problem that's similar to Weyland's and a variation on people like Millburn who hides behind false ego and tries to impress Fifield with an extremely illogical and irrational move in a situation he foolishly believes he has under control.
Millburn's not accessing his logic and emotion/intuition properly, or combining them at all like Shaw does. He doesn't access his flight response well, so even basic emotions/responses are subdued and blocked by his false ego-- a deception. Portraying himself a certain way like how Weyland portrayed himself/thought himself to be a god. The David 8 was made to be intuitive and logical..
David's not completely free from Weyland's programming and can't tell a complete lie (like Pinocchio). Although he's been practicing: he can only choose what he believes and that becomes the truth to him... His statement "I didn't know you had it in you" is a lie when applied to the Trilobite and carries much subdued emotion behind it, sarcasm (double meaning), and potentially triple meaning. David gets away with lying by injecting a double meaning or being vague and choosing what he believes he's referring to. He's stuck following Weyland's programming so this is how he reveals things and manipulates others when he wants to: with his words which are still bound by some programming to remain truthful. On one level he may actually mean it when he says "I didn't know you had it in you" [for going against Weyland's programming that David is forced to carry out].
David's the only one who cares that Shaw shows up in the room. Even if he's being sarcastic on one level.
Weyland is less caring and less emotional about it than the android of the story.
And David doesn't really care about this part of Weyland's plan, he knows about the bio-weapons. It wasn't his plan to do that to Shaw it was part of Weyland's quest for immortality. He's mildly amused to see that someone is actually escaping the foolish plans that Weyland laid out. David really wants to see his King die, and allows his foolish plans to go forward because like Shaw he has come to find out the place is full of only death. He allows Weyland to believe the Engineers may still be gods (no one informs Weyland of the genetic match) and doesn't tell Weyland about the stockpiled bio-weapons.
When they go to see the Engineer Shaw asks what he'll do when Weyland dies. He says he imagines he'd be free...
He's not completely free until Weyland dies. And even then he seems to be unable to tell a complete lie.
David only manipulates things by following Weyland's orders a certain way, choosing his way of carrying them out (infects Holloway out of anger). And crafting his statements a certain way to remain vague and ambiguous-- although he's forced to tell the truth with one of his meanings...
In the viral when David says he can understand human emotion but not truly feel them a tear runs down.
We still don't know what the rorschach-like test has to do with it all, but I can tell you that normally things like that can reveal a person's inner workings.
Instead of checking for something Blade Runner style they're checking to make sure David is not too real...
The emotions are supposed to stay separate like with all good science, but something has gone wrong with this David model. We know this David can lie, in a way, from one of his "I didn't know you had it in you" meanings. He's not only talking/lying about knowing the Alien was inside her.
Like Shaw, David may be a mixture of Science and Emotion/faith/intuition now.
David leans more towards logic/science; while Shaw leans more towards faith/religion/ituition but is also an archaeologist.
They want him to see certain patterns in the ambiguous shapes over others.
If he sees and reports the wrong things he may indicate that he's feeling too much inside. Almost projecting it all subconsciously into his statements about the ambiguous patterns and images. Developing his own beliefs that are radically different from the pattern Weyland wanted David to follow.
Revealing to the testers if this David is too human-like or not, and thus a little harder to control.
Our David probably wouldn't pass that test anymore.
His projections/preferences and what he's seeing in the ambiguous designs would reveal that he wants to kill his parents, possibly to dethrone the king... to live out Lawrence of Arabia, that he doesn't like Holloway or humans much (thinks they're a species that the Engineers are no doubt superior to) and possibly to do some destroying and creating of his own.
Instead his actions and statements throughout Prometheus almost imply that he has these subconscious desires and plans of his own-- but cannot fully express them and it comes out through his lines, statements, preferences, tone of voice, and the multiple meanings behind some of his statements indicating his true desires and knowledge.
"Big things have small beginnings"
David is almost developing a subconscious along with free-will and a true sense of emotion by the end of the story as the emotion he does display becomes more apparent in his words.
Like he and Holloway were secretly worried: he's become too real. David already knows he's much more real than he lets on and resents Holloway even more when he keeps poking at him with the not a real boy comment (Pinocchio/child reference for a reason). David may have emotions now after the 2.5 years alone and shaw's influence but they're only beginning to develop and he still has Weyland's programming + a child-like sense of right and wrong.
We're forgetting one thing.
The main factor.
He (David) doesn't need to experience everything to know ,more or less, how it is to be human.
We can't forget this. The human life is short. We have no time to live and have answers for everything based on our own experiences.
And because of that ; sometimes we will have to rely on the experience of others! And incorporate it as a tool in our everyday life.
What is the concept that I'm trying to say?
David is the eighth generation , is that why he is called number 8.The nearest to perfection that Weyland wanted.
He was designed based on the experience of his creator and ,mainly, based on the experience of the others 7 units before him.
How do we know that David doesn't posses Weyland conscience? I could see him upload his mind into the android. Also I assume the David 8 was related to windows 8. A joke. :P
I always got the GITS vibe from David 8. That even though he might not have been a free independent thinking construct, he was becoming one. The human creators made him better than they knew.
Think you will see David become more and more human like as the series progresses. Of course, coming from a sociopathic creator bent on "godhood" doesn't bode well for the rest of the characters.
Weyland using 'soul' as a secular word makes sense, though to me only through his extremely old age. I still feel the word has no real place in the film, that Weyland wouldn't have said that, and it was just to give Vickers something to chew on while again humping the "it's religious and scientific" theme which is force fed and badly handled throughout the film.
For all anybody knows of what a soul is, David could easily have a soul.
Quote from: RagingDragon on Oct 17, 2012, 05:06:04 PM
For all anybody knows of what a soul is, David could easily have a soul.
I think that's the insult, because before Weyland's comment we see that David has an interest in movies and his appearance; which he necessarily doesn't need to have an interest in since the humans are all in cryo (the whole making them comfortable thing).
Quote from: Valaquen on Oct 17, 2012, 05:39:36 PM
Quote from: RagingDragon on Oct 17, 2012, 05:06:04 PM
For all anybody knows of what a soul is, David could easily have a soul.
I think that's the insult, because before Weyland's comment we see that David has an interest in movies and his appearance; which he necessarily doesn't need to have an interest in since the humans are all in cryo (the whole making them comfortable thing).
Yes - it's quite possible that Weylands 'logical' approach to whether David could possess a soul or not, is not logical at all seen from Davids perspective. Who knows what kind of thoughts a highly sentient being develops on its own accord about that subject?
Quote from: RagingDragon on Oct 17, 2012, 05:06:04 PMFor all anybody knows of what a soul is, David could easily have a soul.
Yup, and we would never be able to tell otherwise. I think that is the underlying fascination with Ridley's robots.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Oct 18, 2012, 01:36:59 AM
Quote from: RagingDragon on Oct 17, 2012, 05:06:04 PMFor all anybody knows of what a soul is, David could easily have a soul.
Yup, and we would never be able to tell otherwise. I think that is the underlying fascination with Ridley's robots.
I agree. In order for a machine to simulate growth, or to be able to adapt to it's environment and truly learn, it must be able to reprogram itself, or add new programming on top of existing routines. This involves changing at will, which is kind of a complicated way to say 'learning something.'
How fast could you learn if you could think five times as fast as you do now, remember and recall perfectly, and you were never fatigued or needed to sleep?
Another reason why I think androids can be creepy characters, and they always seem to reach some complex homicidal philosophy before attempting to murder everyone around them.
Quote from: RagingDragon on Oct 18, 2012, 07:03:57 AMHow fast could you learn if you could think five times as fast as you do now, remember and recall perfectly, and you were never fatigued or needed to sleep?
And yet they never learn basic compassion, something that humans have in abundance. Even if they are programmed or learn how to 'feel' they always seem to miss that one fundamental concept. Robots are creepy because they are essentially psychopaths, and so from our point of view, soulless.
Do we know if David self aware or if he is just a computer that acts like a human. He appers to be interested in some things but is that true interest or just a good simulation of a human?
Quote from: bobcunk on Oct 22, 2012, 03:26:49 AM
Do we know if David self aware or if he is just a computer that acts like a human. He appers to be interested in some things but is that true interest or just a good simulation of a human?
We don't know. That's the trick.
Prometheus 2....really? Prometheus 2??
Whoever wins, we lose. :P ;)
Besides, the next thing we should be worrying about is how much Riddles will screw up the next Bladerunner.
Quote from: Deuterium on Oct 22, 2012, 04:37:41 AMPrometheus 2....really? Prometheus 2??
Come on, tell me you aren't even a tiny bit interested in seeing the Engineer home world. Even just a teeny tiny bit?
The funny thing about debating whether or not David(any android) has a soul is getting ahead of ourselves. We don't even know if a human soul even exists. The term soul, seems to be more of a concept than an actual, tangible thing.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Oct 22, 2012, 09:52:36 AM
Quote from: Deuterium on Oct 22, 2012, 04:37:41 AMPrometheus 2....really? Prometheus 2??
Come on, tell me you aren't even a tiny bit interested in seeing the Engineer home world. Even just a teeny tiny bit?
Nope, not even a bit. And I trace that back to before even Prometheus was released...when we found out the engineers were just big blue "humans". ::) ::) ::)
Now if they had kept the original Space Jockey as a truly alien organism (and not a dude in a suit), then I would have been incredibly interested in seeing their homeworld.
Now, alas, the only upcoming sci-fi feature films I am interested in, are Neil Blomkamp's "Elysium", and Alfonso Cuaron's "Gravity".
If they do the homeworld, I want to see biomechanics, not just mechanics. Some of Gutalin's stuff showing biomechanic cities and landscapes are great. That and Giger's stuff (like his painting, New York) would be ideal. No more stripping it down.
Quote from: Valaquen on Oct 23, 2012, 06:13:35 AM
If they do the homeworld, I want to see biomechanics, not just mechanics. Some of Gutalin's stuff showing biomechanic cities and landscapes are great. That and Giger's stuff (like his painting, New York) would be ideal. No more stripping it down.
I tried really hard to not have too high of expectations for Prometheus and I felt like that worked pretty well for me personally because I really enjoyed the film. But with a post like that Valaquen ... how can we NOT have high expectations for the Engineer home world? If it's not biomechanical (and even more so than the pressure suit) I think I might have to be disappointed.
I'd like to see some sort of harmonic symbiant relationship between the engineers and the alien gene. I was hoping for the facehugger to be a bastardized bio mechanical breathing apparatus that actually was designed to breath for the wearer. Maybe in Prometheus 2.
While we're at it ... how about seeing the function of the elongated penis shaped head of the alien being used to plug directly into a multi-vulvaed hive mine entity? The closest thing to 'God' we're going to see in Paradise I think.
Quote from: Bat Chain Puller on Oct 23, 2012, 07:04:43 AM
world? If it's not biomechanical (and even more so than the pressure suit) I think I might have to be disappointed.
I'd like to see some sort of harmonic symbiant relationship between the engineers and the alien gene. I was hoping for the facehugger to be a bastardized bio mechanical breathing apparatus that actually was designed to breath for the wearer. Maybe in Prometheus 2.
While we're at it ... how about seeing the function of the elongated penis shaped head of the alien being used to plug directly into a multi-vulvaed hive mine entity? The closest thing to 'God' we're going to see in Paradise I think.
From what we saw in
Prometheus I'd say that they were certainly exploring the concepts of facehuggers as breathing apparatus etc. I'm sure more bio-tech and its origins would be shown in any sequel.
Won't all the Engineers just be dead in Prometheus. I expect widespread devastation. Civil war between different sects.
Didn't Ridley say the eggs were for a war in the ALIEN directors commentary. Taking into consideration that he went with his "bomber" idea in regards the derelict I assume he's just going to go with the civil war story.
Anyway we are never going to get the Alien movie we all want ever again. Big budgget films are made for 13 year olds upwards these days. They can't get psycho sexual when they are aiming at kids.
Your theory is a bit flawd since the movie ended up with a r rating.
And just because he said 20 years ago he was thinking the eggs were for a war it doesn't mean the engineers were fighting between them. Back then he could have meant they were fighting other species. And by how things turned out in Prometheus it could mean that is the way the engineers dispose of their creations/experiments on all the different planets where they have been. At some point they had the eggs, in time they could have perfected the technology and used goo, or the other way around.
After they showed us the engineers in this movie, i believe they are not the kind of species that fights with eachother. Just a personal opinion but i don't think they like the idea of hurting eachother but more likely they all live in peace and work for a common goal. The last dude seemed displeased when Shaw got hurt by the bodyguard.
And to make the engineers have different factions and introduce a civil war,imo could be kinda cheesy
I don't know how many times it has to said but the movie was quite clearly cut down in the hopes of getting a PG13. It was quite clear when they censored saying Fifield saying f**k by putting in radio static. Remember Yippee Ki Ay mother *bang* in the other Fox movie Die Hard 4?
I think it's hard to come to any conclusion about the Engineers since the movie was so slim on detail. And any info regarding them was pretty much cut out anyway.
I was basing the civil war thing on what Scott said. Things he has said in the past have come true such as the egg bombs which was wonderfully spelled out for the audience by captain Yanek in a very unsubtle out of no where scene.
Since they didn't come up with any new ideas I'm sure they'll just rehash the rest of the old ones.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Oct 22, 2012, 09:52:36 AM
Quote from: Deuterium on Oct 22, 2012, 04:37:41 AMPrometheus 2....really? Prometheus 2??
Come on, tell me you aren't even a tiny bit interested in seeing the Engineer home world. Even just a teeny tiny bit?
I'll ruin it for you. It's gonna be a world of speechless, hairless, pale skinned, flute playing, pansy asses lol
Quote from: Shmiggins on Oct 23, 2012, 07:29:05 PM
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Oct 22, 2012, 09:52:36 AM
Quote from: Deuterium on Oct 22, 2012, 04:37:41 AMPrometheus 2....really? Prometheus 2??
Come on, tell me you aren't even a tiny bit interested in seeing the Engineer home world. Even just a teeny tiny bit?
I'll ruin it for you. It's gonna be a world of speechless, hairless, pale skinned, flute playing, pansy asses lol
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsuptg.thisisnotatrueending.com%2Farchive%2F18519535%2Fimages%2F1333162971286.gif&hash=e49e212cc3d5acd35a664efb1a3d855f141a9fc7)
:laugh: Pansy asses that will falcon punch you, fool!
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.fjcdn.com%2Fgifs%2FFalcon_f1e74e_1985652.gif&hash=c9e5e6d25f8d53ec93b8108a0f1344373904aca6)
Quote from: RagingDragon on Oct 23, 2012, 07:43:23 PM
Quote from: Shmiggins on Oct 23, 2012, 07:29:05 PM
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Oct 22, 2012, 09:52:36 AM
Quote from: Deuterium on Oct 22, 2012, 04:37:41 AMPrometheus 2....really? Prometheus 2??
Come on, tell me you aren't even a tiny bit interested in seeing the Engineer home world. Even just a teeny tiny bit?
I'll ruin it for you. It's gonna be a world of speechless, hairless, pale skinned, flute playing, pansy asses lol
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/18519535/images/1333162971286.gif
:laugh: Pansy asses that will falcon punch you, fool!
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.fjcdn.com%2Fgifs%2FFalcon_f1e74e_1985652.gif&hash=c9e5e6d25f8d53ec93b8108a0f1344373904aca6)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Foriginal%2F000%2F002%2F361%2Fdemotivational-posters-falcon-punch.jpg%3F1242562268&hash=5c817c62553904453cdfc237ee3265f77ac631d9)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Foriginal%2F000%2F161%2F626%2Ffalcon-punch.jpg%3F1313239850&hash=262d763487e2d5d0ead5f460fe3d76254e8403b4)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3-ec.buzzfed.com%2Fstatic%2Fimagebuzz%2Fweb03%2F2010%2F5%2F15%2F0%2Ffalcon-punch-32324-1273899207-72.jpg&hash=b6dead68e0f335f314be8ea241f6d630d6144607)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmikejohnsonpa.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F07%2Ffalconpunch.jpg&hash=bdbb00780bb1863b60504bc8646b4c2994597ec4)
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Okay, we get the point. Back on topic.
what about the MASSIVE problem of LV-223 being able to support life, containing multiple Engineer ships, pyramids, and vials of black goo, and not ever being mentioned in the Alien series? Its in the same freaking system as Lv-246!
I mean, think about it, why would the company terraform LV-246 and not also terraform Lv-223? By the time Aliens takes place the company should have been all over the crash site of the Prometheus and known all about the Engineers, their ships, and the black goo.
THAT is what the sequel needs to address. Not shaw and david going to the home world of the Engineers.
Quote from: marrerom on Oct 24, 2012, 07:38:48 PM
what about the MASSIVE problem of LV-223 being able to support life, containing multiple Engineer ships, pyramids, and vials of black goo, and not ever being mentioned in the Alien series? Its in the same freaking system as Lv-246!
No. The planetary system they arrive at in Alien, has at least 3 moons orbiting the central ringed gas giant. In Prometheus, the planet only has 2 moons.
...you're right! thanks for setting me straight on that :)
You're welcome :)
And yet I've heard mention from people who should know better, that they are in the same system. Despite the missing moon and being 4 light years less farther away from Earth...
Perhabs the 3rd moon was just not visible from that hemisphere at this time of the LV-223 season or daytime.
Or...
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.arstechnica.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F11%2Fno-moon-4ecbf76-intro.jpg&hash=d025cf6719900ec048dcd207c94d2731c00b3233)
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages3.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20071113213521%2Fstarwars%2Fimages%2F7%2F71%2FDSI_hdapproach.jpg&hash=4d871c215216aa3af2073453279f832a211c02f8)
Quote from: LarsVader on Oct 24, 2012, 10:16:29 PM
Perhabs the 3rd moon was just not visible from that hemisphere at this time of the LV-223 season or daytime.
Or...
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.arstechnica.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F11%2Fno-moon-4ecbf76-intro.jpg&hash=d025cf6719900ec048dcd207c94d2731c00b3233)
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages3.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20071113213521%2Fstarwars%2Fimages%2F7%2F71%2FDSI_hdapproach.jpg&hash=4d871c215216aa3af2073453279f832a211c02f8)
It's not visible on the holograms either.
Quote from: LarsVader on Oct 24, 2012, 10:16:29 PM
Perhabs the 3rd moon was just not visible from that hemisphere at this time of the LV-223 season or daytime.
Or...
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.arstechnica.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F11%2Fno-moon-4ecbf76-intro.jpg&hash=d025cf6719900ec048dcd207c94d2731c00b3233)
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages3.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20071113213521%2Fstarwars%2Fimages%2F7%2F71%2FDSI_hdapproach.jpg&hash=4d871c215216aa3af2073453279f832a211c02f8)
:laugh: I like that option B.
If you really wanna get anal, the rings around the gas giants, don't match up in their composition as well. In Alien, it pretty much consists of two wide rings of same width with a gap between them. In Prometheus, the pattern looks very different - 3-4 rings, uneven sized... The light emitted from the respective stars looks different as well. Bluish in Alien - faint yellowish in Prometheus.
I've been doing some digging and found that on the blu-ray special features there is this snippet taken from the "peter-weyland files":
QuoteAs fate would have it, Shaw and Halloway's interest in Zeta 2 Reticuli has proven to be mutually beneficial. While the good doctors rely on ancient carvings and primitive cave paintings, my science division's own long range scans have recently detected a faint, almost imperceptibel signal eminating from one of the lesser moons in that system. And contrary to the findings of Shaw and Halloway, which target LV-223 as our primary site of interest, our findings suggest the point of interest could actually be the moon LV-426.
Per standard procedure, we will embed a David 8 unit with the crew. And he will be programmed with multiple contingency plans to address and exploit whatever assets we secure on 223. But only David will know about 426 and will ensure that the rest of the crew - including Meredith - learn nothing about the transmission we've recently discovered until the time is right.
For if the Yutani's new ECIU software is to be trusted, there might be great risk awaiting us on the path to an even greater reward.
so there you go...LV-223 is in the same system as LV-246, Zeta 2 Reticuli.
here is a shot of the planet and its moons:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.wikia.com%2Favp%2Fimages%2F3%2F31%2FNostromo_LV426.jpg&hash=0881367407a59c2419cb8b1bf588a976a74e8362)
I can see that there seem to be three of them, but then there is this shot which shows only 2:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn549%2Fsmarty9000%2Fprometheus4%2Falien-planet.jpg&hash=3bf0f04282df2260497503979f9c3f68b8ab34a7)
Ridley also says that this film takes place at Zeta II Reticuli on the 'Prometheus: Origins' featurette...so it seems as though they are in the same system... BUT then how do you explain the extra moon? :-\
Perhaps there is more then one planet with a moon in that system?
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn549%2Fsmarty9000%2Fprometheus4%2Falien-planet.jpg&hash=3bf0f04282df2260497503979f9c3f68b8ab34a7)
If you can score a bit better quality copy of this image, you can see a thin crescent of the moon at the far right of frame. It's the same plate used over and over (and again on the surface where it's flipped I dopn't recall if the Blu Ray makes all three moons visible in the sky, thus meaning, there are four moons circling the gas giant).
In regards to it being Zeta 2 Reticuli - that may have been what was intended, but personally the jury's out whether it's a legit part of the film. Too many astronomical issues.
If the sequel confirms it either way then so be it.
Well if it is a story about creation I don't see why LV-426 itself couldn't be created.
I know how stupid that sounds, however it is a tiny planet and could perhaps have been missed even by future planetary exploration techniques so no one really thinks of it as being odd when it is found and labeled. Such as being hidden behind the planet. So having a planet named LV-223 and LV-426 in the same planetary system wouldn't be that strange.
check this out:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FTGrGm.gif&hash=3e987ac91d75c4b6e2fbf89df3226e319ce923ff)
Judging by this there are only two moons in orbit around the planet. So perhaps what we saw in Alien was a passing planetary body that wasn't in orbit around the planet but instead was just passing through the system?
Again, this assumes it's the same planet.
I still don't think we are going to see a sequel anytime soon with a possible Blade Runner 2 coming out soon. A Prometheus sequel might not happen until after 2015. I wonder if anyone will care by then?
Quote from: SM on Oct 25, 2012, 03:31:59 AM
Again, this assumes it's the same planet.
God does his work in mysterious ways. Hey I'm liking this religious stuff, just say god did it and it's instant canon. :laugh:
Quote from: whiterabbit on Oct 25, 2012, 06:39:04 AM
Quote from: SM on Oct 25, 2012, 03:31:59 AM
Again, this assumes it's the same planet.
God does his work in mysterious ways. Hey I'm liking this religious stuff, just say god did it and it's instant canon. :laugh:
Oh Sna-
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F__1jec6_-8wc%2FTQ27GCsqUQI%2FAAAAAAAABvU%2F_755f1-LJ0w%2Fs1600%2Fcute_oh_snap_gingerbread_man_cookie_photosculpture-p1534174383042537603s98_400.jpg&hash=83e4a9112255f8a8c4d2bbd30c884fd6075f8216)
Quote from: Hellspawn28 on Oct 25, 2012, 04:38:12 AM
I still don't think we are going to see a sequel anytime soon with a possible Blade Runner 2 coming out soon. A Prometheus sequel might not happen until after 2015. I wonder if anyone will care by then?
They will either go into pre-production early 2013 or it won't happen. Sequels such as this only have a short shelf life before even those you liked the first lose interest (and that invariably means less box office - unless it's something like
Star Wars or James Bond where you can re-boot it after a longer wait). The studio knows this... If it's wait until 2015 for Ridley Scott or start production in 2013 with a new director - it will be the latter.
Ridley said some fun stuff about where the film took place just prior to release. I honestly don't know if he was just having a bit of fun with fan expectations or if he was confused himself.
The fact remains that Prometheus tells us that they arrive at a planetary system roughly 3.27*10^14 km from Earth. That calculates to roughly 34.5 light years. Zeta 2 Reticuli is located 39.2 light years from Earth. So, going from what we are shown in the film, the system cannot possibly be Zeta 2 Reticuli. It's off the mark by 4.7 light years, which equates to about 3 months of travel time in The Prometheus.
Quote from: Hellspawn28 on Oct 25, 2012, 04:38:12 AM
I still don't think we are going to see a sequel anytime soon with a possible Blade Runner 2 coming out soon. A Prometheus sequel might not happen until after 2015. I wonder if anyone will care by then?
What if there is a plan to connect Bladerunner with Prometheus and there will be some cross-promotion and cross-pollination going on? Showing Fox how to properly weave a hybrid series together... to create a new hybrid series the old one first had to be destroyed. The head of the company replaced, like the head of the hammerpede that regrows..
What if the Weyland timeline is partially propaganda made to make Weyland look like the king/god of the Earth after the previous King, Tyrell, was killed?
What if young Peter Weyland shows up at the end of Bladerunner 2 to join the series together in a way that's more balanced and properly weaved together. In a way that AVP wasn't... making the Prometheus, Paradise, and Persephone movies a bridge between two series and not an end to either...
Blade Runner is a Warner Bros. property - not Fox, so I don't see that happening. I don't think it's 'required' either, for making a storyline centered around artificial humans, interesting. :)
Quote from: Eva on Oct 25, 2012, 12:57:58 PMIt's off the mark by 4.7 light years, which equates to about 3 months of travel time in The Prometheus.
Some of the 'supplementary' material suggests that they knew about the LV-426 signal before setting out. Makes you wonder why they didn't go there instead - at least they could of been more certain that there was something there rather than just going on the hunch of a nut job archaeologist who thinks that she has found god's homeland.
Maybe Weyland intended on going there after LV-223. Seems a long way to go and not say hi.
Quote from: Eva on Oct 25, 2012, 12:57:58 PM
Ridley said some fun stuff about where the film took place just prior to release. I honestly don't know if he was just having a bit of fun with fan expectations or if he was confused himself.
The fact remains that Prometheus tells us that they arrive at a planetary system roughly 3.27*10^14 km from Earth. That calculates to roughly 34.5 light years. Zeta 2 Reticuli is located 39.2 light years from Earth. So, going from what we are shown in the film, the system cannot possibly be Zeta 2 Reticuli. It's off the mark by 4.7 light years, which equates to about 3 months of travel time in The Prometheus.
I think this is the biggest issue.
Quote from: SM on Oct 25, 2012, 11:01:40 PM
Quote from: Eva on Oct 25, 2012, 12:57:58 PM
Ridley said some fun stuff about where the film took place just prior to release. I honestly don't know if he was just having a bit of fun with fan expectations or if he was confused himself.
The fact remains that Prometheus tells us that they arrive at a planetary system roughly 3.27*10^14 km from Earth. That calculates to roughly 34.5 light years. Zeta 2 Reticuli is located 39.2 light years from Earth. So, going from what we are shown in the film, the system cannot possibly be Zeta 2 Reticuli. It's off the mark by 4.7 light years, which equates to about 3 months of travel time in The Prometheus.
I think this is the biggest issue.
Hi Eva!
Well...it does depend on the degree of your suspension of disbelief. If you accept FTL propulsion for the Prometheus, than anything is possible. Unfortunately, this also raises the NOT INCONSEQUENTIAL problem of time-travel to a reference frame in the past...and all the potential paradoxes that would ensue.
However, if we limit the Prometheus to subluminal, yet relativistic travel (i.e., velocity at a high percentage of "c"), and using a quite reasonable assumption of 1g acceleration outbound, with a turn-around at mid-point, followed by deceleration at 1g, then here is the calculated time (proper-time, as perceived on-board the ship) versus the elapsed time on Earth:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi763.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx274%2FDeuterium2h%2FPresentation1.jpg&hash=e91e2cf6c5368fd15bc16fe06d0d114f1bdee09b)
Note that my calcs are based on General Relativity, and take into account the acceleration and deceleration maneuvers, versus a continous, constant speed (which is simply calculated based on the Lorentz equations of SR). So, to reiterate, this is a much more "realistic" scenario.
Again, I accept if the Prometheus is using FTL (magic) propulsion, then the calcs do not apply. However, without breaking the laws of Physics, the total ship-board travel time experienced by the Prometheus crew would be 7.3 years, whereas as the Earth-based (inertial) observers would experience a total of 41.4 years elapsed time.
If we allow the Prometheus to accelerate and decelerate at greater than 1g, then both the proper-time (ship-time) as well as the Earth-based elapsed time would be reduced.
It's using FTL travel.
Quote from: SM on Oct 26, 2012, 05:37:31 AM
It's using FTL travel.
Yes, I accept this. Nevertheless, it is still fun to figure out the ramifications if the Prometheus was limited to relativistic (sub-luminal) travel. IMHO, this would made for a much more compelling narrative. Just read Joe Haldeman's "The Forever War" to understand the intriguing story possibilities that are opened up, if they just followed the friggin' rules! ;D :P
"Gravity...it is not just a good idea, it is the Law". ;)
Remember the first shot we get of the Prometheus; it's just a small speck of light steaming across a backdrop of stars. Sure, it's just an effect, but then again there it is on screen - the Prometheus moving through space at whatever speed it is meant to be going to get to LV-223, and that speed must be sub-light for that shot to make any sense.
Unless of course it was slowing down, and that makes total sense and I'll shut up now. ;D
The Nostromo and Auriga are seen chugging along at FTL speeds.
Hi Deuterium
Yeah, I can't fault the chart you've made, but as SM writes, they are clearly on the FTL wagon -> 34.5 light years in 2 years and I'm thinking this is Earth time, not ship time. I believe the dates we know from background files on Project Prometheus confirms this. As general relativity dictates, it requires an almost infinite amount of energy to accelerate an object with mass to light speed, so I'm guessing they found a short cut - manipulating the space-time fabric surrounding the ship or something. A Voodoo FTL drive :)
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Oct 26, 2012, 06:02:58 AM
Remember the first shot we get of the Prometheus; it's just a small speck of light steaming across a backdrop of stars. Sure, it's just an effect, but then again there it is on screen - the Prometheus moving through space at whatever speed it is meant to be going to get to LV-223, and that speed must be sub-light for that shot to make any sense.
Unless of course it was slowing down, and that makes total sense and I'll shut up now. ;D
That's what I'm thinking - it's slowing down. When the ship enters the planetary system, it starts to bank forward from the deceleration, making David alert of what's going on. With that said - an outside camera traveling at the same speed as the ship, would just show the ship and the backdrop of thousands of remote stars, even at FTL speeds. No swooshing light effects like when the Falcon goes into hyperspace - the stars are waaaay to far away to display this effect. :)
I think this might be another movie that Fox will put on hold for a while. Look at Predators 2, we get small amount of info once and while, but no sequel after two years later.
Quote from: SM on Oct 26, 2012, 06:08:06 AMThe Nostromo and Auriga are seen chugging along at FTL speeds.
I had always assumed that the Nostromo was stopped or just cruising, having come out of ludicrous speed before waking the crew. I can't properly recall A:R but I have a feeling it's the same kind of thing - the ship slowed for some reason, in the case of A:R the arrival of the Betty.
Quote from: Eva on Oct 26, 2012, 06:36:57 AMWith that said - an outside camera traveling at the same speed as the ship, would just show the ship and the backdrop of thousands of remote stars, even at FTL speeds.
Too much projective geometry for me - I'll have to take your word on that one. :)
Remember kids, it's not the ship that moves but the space around it.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Oct 26, 2012, 07:04:48 AM
I had always assumed that the Nostromo was stopped or just cruising
It's moving FTL the entire second half of the film.
QuoteI can't properly recall A:R but I have a feeling it's the same kind of thing - the ship slowed for some reason, in the case of A:R the arrival of the Betty.
And then moves FTL through the solar system.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 26, 2012, 08:17:01 AMIt's moving FTL the entire second half of the film.
Back to the old freezerinos. Of course, how could I forget.
Quote from: Deuterium on Oct 26, 2012, 05:25:47 AM
Again, I accept if the Prometheus is using FTL (magic) propulsion, then the calcs do not apply. However, without breaking the laws of Physics, the total ship-board travel time experienced by the Prometheus crew would be 7.3 years, whereas as the Earth-based (inertial) observers would experience a total of 41.4 years elapsed time.
I'd like to point out that those numbers collide with Ripleys promise to be home for her daughters birthday. ;)
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Oct 26, 2012, 07:04:48 AM
Quote from: Eva on Oct 26, 2012, 06:36:57 AMWith that said - an outside camera traveling at the same speed as the ship, would just show the ship and the backdrop of thousands of remote stars, even at FTL speeds.
Too much projective geometry for me - I'll have to take your word on that one. :)
Just imagine sitting in the cockpit of a plane, flying at supersonic speed. The clouds far away in the horizon, close in on you very slowly, despite the high speed of the plane. Same principle, only most stars by far, are much, much farther away, relatively speaking. :)
Quote from: Deuterium on Oct 26, 2012, 05:25:47 AM
Hi Eva!
Well...it does depend on the degree of your suspension of disbelief. If you accept FTL propulsion for the Prometheus, than anything is possible. Unfortunately, this also raises the NOT INCONSEQUENTIAL problem of time-travel to a reference frame in the past...and all the potential paradoxes that would ensue.
However, if we limit the Prometheus to subluminal, yet relativistic travel (i.e., velocity at a high percentage of "c"), and using a quite reasonable assumption of 1g acceleration outbound, with a turn-around at mid-point, followed by deceleration at 1g, then here is the calculated time (proper-time, as perceived on-board the ship) versus the elapsed time on Earth:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi763.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx274%2FDeuterium2h%2FPresentation1.jpg&hash=e91e2cf6c5368fd15bc16fe06d0d114f1bdee09b)
Note that my calcs are based on General Relativity, and take into account the acceleration and deceleration maneuvers, versus a continous, constant speed (which is simply calculated based on the Lorentz equations of SR). So, to reiterate, this is a much more "realistic" scenario.
Again, I accept if the Prometheus is using FTL (magic) propulsion, then the calcs do not apply. However, without breaking the laws of Physics, the total ship-board travel time experienced by the Prometheus crew would be 7.3 years, whereas as the Earth-based (inertial) observers would experience a total of 41.4 years elapsed time.
If we allow the Prometheus to accelerate and decelerate at greater than 1g, then both the proper-time (ship-time) as well as the Earth-based elapsed time would be reduced.
^This. This right here is why I love this site :D
I love it when the fans apply science to the films. Like how someone (SM?) figured out the exact date Alien:Res took place by charting out the orbit of the planets at that time... Awesome
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.crushable.com%2Ffiles%2F2012%2F08%2Fget-in-losers-were-going-to-do-science.jpg&hash=4299bf752bbe12d73b11fef51f452c5d79375f3a)
:D
Reminds me of the old gamegossip days.
Making me all nostalgic in Africa. :(
Her 11th birthday. Horrible mother, left her daughter all alone when she was -41 years before she was born. :P
I bet you she'll blame someone for that screw up! bwa haha!
Quote from: LarsVader on Oct 26, 2012, 02:01:27 PM
Quote from: Deuterium on Oct 26, 2012, 05:25:47 AM
Again, I accept if the Prometheus is using FTL (magic) propulsion, then the calcs do not apply. However, without breaking the laws of Physics, the total ship-board travel time experienced by the Prometheus crew would be 7.3 years, whereas as the Earth-based (inertial) observers would experience a total of 41.4 years elapsed time.
I'd like to point out that those numbers collide with Ripleys promise to be home for her daughters birthday. ;)
acredibleresource, you are aware that you can type your text beneath the quote that you are responding to, right? I just noticed that you always have it above, and I never actually realize that your post is a response to someone else's statement until afterwards :)
Quote from: RagingDragon on Oct 26, 2012, 05:49:22 PM
http://cdn.crushable.com/files/2012/08/get-in-losers-were-going-to-do-science.jpg
:D
Considering how often I confuse general relativity with special relativity (and this thread is no exception), I think I'll just take the bus - I won't stand the mockery from Techwiz Tony and Brainy Bruce :P
Quote from: Eva on Oct 26, 2012, 06:36:57 AM
With that said - an outside camera traveling at the same speed as the ship, would just show the ship and the backdrop of thousands of remote stars, even at FTL speeds. No swooshing light effects like when the Falcon goes into hyperspace - the stars are waaaay to far away to display this effect. :)
Doppler shift all up ins, which was actually in the script for
Alien but not done in the effects -- stars ahead of you would appear bluer, stars behind redder.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 27, 2012, 10:12:21 PM
Quote from: Eva on Oct 26, 2012, 06:36:57 AM
With that said - an outside camera traveling at the same speed as the ship, would just show the ship and the backdrop of thousands of remote stars, even at FTL speeds. No swooshing light effects like when the Falcon goes into hyperspace - the stars are waaaay to far away to display this effect. :)
Doppler shift all up ins, which was actually in the script for Alien but not done in the effects -- stars ahead of you would appear bluer, stars behind redder.
Hmm interesting - I wonder if the effect would be pronounced enough, to make a hot star emitting blue light appear red and the opposite for stars emitting red light...
Yup. You apparently only need a redshift of .75 to go from blue to red -- that's subluminal speeds.
http://wolframalpha.com (http://wolframalpha.com) if you wanna play around.
The dots are starting to connect inside my mind now. I remember watching a show on Discovery, essentially centered around Hubble and how astronomers and astrophysicists today are developing a better understanding of the Universe, based on his legacy. I'm fairly certain that they explained the phenomenon 'redshift', when visualizing how we can tell that the universe is expanding in all directions at an increased rate.
Prometheus concept art showing moons and such, but most of us know that it was to take place on LV-426 at some point in development anyways.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A6TyUKrCIAESv8p.jpg:large)
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Oct 27, 2012, 03:06:42 AM
acredibleresource, you are aware that you can type your text beneath the quote that you are responding to, right? I just noticed that you always have it above, and I never actually realize that your post is a response to someone else's statement until afterwards :)
All this time i thought it was the other way around! Cant you just flip upside down when you read my ripleys?
Quote from: Eva on Oct 28, 2012, 01:40:24 PM
The dots are starting to connect inside my mind now. I remember watching a show on Discovery, essentially centered around Hubble and how astronomers and astrophysicists today are developing a better understanding of the Universe, based on his legacy. I'm fairly certain that they explained the phenomenon 'redshift', when visualizing how we can tell that the universe is expanding in all directions at an increased rate.
Exactly. By examining the colour spectrum of a distant star we can determine its composition, and then from the redshift/blueshift we can determine how fast it's moving away from, or towards, us.
Quote from: acrediblesource on Oct 28, 2012, 10:29:47 PM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Oct 27, 2012, 03:06:42 AM
acredibleresource, you are aware that you can type your text beneath the quote that you are responding to, right? I just noticed that you always have it above, and I never actually realize that your post is a response to someone else's statement until afterwards :)
All this time i thought it was the other way around! Cant you just flip upside down when you read my ripleys?
Read your Ripleys? :o :o
:laugh: I mess with ya, man.
Quote from: Prime113 on Oct 29, 2012, 11:54:10 AM
Quote from: acrediblesource on Oct 28, 2012, 10:29:47 PM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Oct 27, 2012, 03:06:42 AM
acredibleresource, you are aware that you can type your text beneath the quote that you are responding to, right? I just noticed that you always have it above, and I never actually realize that your post is a response to someone else's statement until afterwards :)
All this time i thought it was the other way around! Cant you just flip upside down when you read my ripleys?
Read your Ripleys? :o :o
:laugh: I mess with ya, man.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FTiK16.gif&hash=df6d873f71bb31a7601cc1c944e0bb031e794d9a)
Quote from: SiL on Oct 27, 2012, 10:12:21 PM
Quote from: Eva on Oct 26, 2012, 06:36:57 AM
With that said - an outside camera traveling at the same speed as the ship, would just show the ship and the backdrop of thousands of remote stars, even at FTL speeds. No swooshing light effects like when the Falcon goes into hyperspace - the stars are waaaay to far away to display this effect. :)
Doppler shift all up ins, which was actually in the script for Alien but not done in the effects -- stars ahead of you would appear bluer, stars behind redder.
I was thinking more about whether there would be any parallaxing evident if the camera was moving with the ship.There is math (projective geometry is the discipline I believe) that can tell you if an object of X distance would appear to move against a further object shot from a camera moving at Y speed.
How close would the nearest star have to be to a camera travelling in excess of twice the speed of light to appear to move within the frame?
I am off to nut this out... see you in 2018. ;D
Quote from: SiL on Oct 29, 2012, 09:11:14 AM
Quote from: Eva on Oct 28, 2012, 01:40:24 PM
The dots are starting to connect inside my mind now. I remember watching a show on Discovery, essentially centered around Hubble and how astronomers and astrophysicists today are developing a better understanding of the Universe, based on his legacy. I'm fairly certain that they explained the phenomenon 'redshift', when visualizing how we can tell that the universe is expanding in all directions at an increased rate.
Exactly. By examining the colour spectrum of a distant star we can determine its composition, and then from the redshift/blueshift we can determine how fast it's moving away from, or towards, us.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.celluloidheroreviews.com%2Fimages%2Fairplane_2.jpg&hash=34e38238460153e5e3655b0ef17d29c55b56628d)
Towards us???
Quote from: marrerom on Oct 24, 2012, 07:38:48 PM
what about the MASSIVE problem of LV-223 being able to support life, containing multiple Engineer ships, pyramids, and vials of black goo, and not ever being mentioned in the Alien series? Its in the same freaking system as Lv-246!
I mean, think about it, why would the company terraform LV-246 and not also terraform Lv-223? By the time Aliens takes place the company should have been all over the crash site of the Prometheus and known all about the Engineers, their ships, and the black goo.
THAT is what the sequel needs to address. Not shaw and david going to the home world of the Engineers.
I agree. They need to tie up loose ends. I would wager that the Colony ship in Covenant,
Spoiler
If the spoilers are true and they have been awoken prior to arriving at their intended destination, then I wouldn't be surprised if we find out their intended destination, which they are routed to at the end of Covenant, is LV223. Which insinuates that the company sent them there intentionally?
This would be a good way to tie up some lose ends, because the series is becoming kinda rampant with them.
Quote from: CainsSon on Jan 31, 2017, 08:04:59 PM
Quote from: marrerom on Oct 24, 2012, 07:38:48 PM
what about the MASSIVE problem of LV-223 being able to support life, containing multiple Engineer ships, pyramids, and vials of black goo, and not ever being mentioned in the Alien series? Its in the same freaking system as Lv-246!
I mean, think about it, why would the company terraform LV-246 and not also terraform Lv-223? By the time Aliens takes place the company should have been all over the crash site of the Prometheus and known all about the Engineers, their ships, and the black goo.
THAT is what the sequel needs to address. Not shaw and david going to the home world of the Engineers.
I agree. They need to tie up loose ends. I would wager that the Colony ship in Covenant, Spoiler
If the spoilers are true and they have been awoken prior to arriving at their intended destination, then I wouldn't be surprised if we find out their intended destination, which they are routed to at the end of Covenant, is LV223. Which insinuates that the company sent them there intentionally?
Necroed hard here Cain. 4 Years!
I'd be open to this, even if it's a throw away line or short conversation.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Oct 30, 2012, 04:44:38 AM
Quote from: SiL on Oct 27, 2012, 10:12:21 PM
Quote from: Eva on Oct 26, 2012, 06:36:57 AM
With that said - an outside camera traveling at the same speed as the ship, would just show the ship and the backdrop of thousands of remote stars, even at FTL speeds. No swooshing light effects like when the Falcon goes into hyperspace - the stars are waaaay to far away to display this effect. :)
Doppler shift all up ins, which was actually in the script for Alien but not done in the effects -- stars ahead of you would appear bluer, stars behind redder.
I was thinking more about whether there would be any parallaxing evident if the camera was moving with the ship.There is math (projective geometry is the discipline I believe) that can tell you if an object of X distance would appear to move against a further object shot from a camera moving at Y speed.
How close would the nearest star have to be to a camera travelling in excess of twice the speed of light to appear to move within the frame?
I am off to nut this out... see you in 2018. ;D
You can try by yourself in Space Engine.
And you will be bored at all to notice that you actually don't seem to move.
Alpha Centauri , the closest star to earth is 4.37 light years away from us.
At twice the speed of light, you would still take 2.18 light years to reach it.
Imagine now that most of the stars you see in the sky are hundred light years away.
The background would seems absolutely static unless you timelapse it.
Lastly, the stars you see with a naked eye are for most the closest to us (with the exception of a handful superbrights stars) so even then stars would seem to "appear" along the way as you progress across a galaxy but, at that speed, the process would be very very very slow.
It takes roughly 8 minutes for the light to reach earth.
Go outside, do a 8 minutes walk and try to put this in perspective.
Pluto is 13 hours away from the sun at light speed. That's to tell just how close we are to our sun in the solar system.
And one of the farthest object of the Solar System, Sedna, has an average distance of 524 AU
It's about 72 hour (3 days) at light speed.