They should have had Fugitive try to outsmart Upgrade...perhaps even have the two of them play a bit of cat and mouse in the forest, with Fugitive kinda in Dutch's position in the first film (outmatched but using his cunning)
I feel like the fight we got was uninspired
Quote from: happypred on Sep 17, 2018, 02:09:47 AM
They should have had Fugitive try to outsmart Upgrade...perhaps even have the two of them play a bit of cat and mouse in the forest, with Fugitive kinda in Dutch's position in the first film (outmatched but using his cunning)
I feel like the fight we got was uninspired
The fight was definitely too short and I hated how the Fugitive Predator was not used to his full potential
5'10 180lb me is not going to rush an opponent the size of Lebron James
Fugitive came off as real stupid...it was a good chance to show a pred is capable of using its brain when outclassed
We already had a weak pred rashly rush a strong pred scene in Predators
Yeah, I agree, he should have led him into a chase and use his wits and survival tactics to fight him. They should have added some more scenes of the Fugitive fighting the Upgrade, I would have loved to see him escape and make a final stand setting up traps and out smarting the Upgrade
^ That would have been really cool. Wish Fugitive had stuck around longer.
But he was there just so he would be killed by the Upgrade. :P
That was the intention of the writers.
Fugitives one job was to die at the hands of upgrade. And oh boy. He got wasted alright.
i got a question if the 2 friendly predators was still in the movie, would the Fugitive Predator still have died here ?
i never read the earlie script so i have no idea :(
Yes, nothing would have changed in that respect. The two friendly Predators were introduced after the Fugitive had already been killed. And they were also killed almost immediately after they were introduced.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Sep 17, 2018, 02:30:10 AM
But he was there just so he would be killed by the Upgrade. :P
That was the intention of the writers.
Yep. While it would've been far more entertaining for there to be some cat-and-mouse business, it simply wouldn't have been as effective for their purpose. This is the ultimate predator. The "ultimateness" of this new predator can't be questioned if he quickly and easily obliterates an opponent as historically effective and intimidating as a classic predator. Poor fugitive. Twas merely fodder for the bigger, shinier, newer model.
Quote from: Wysps on Sep 17, 2018, 05:00:52 AM
Yes, nothing would have changed in that respect. The two friendly Predators were introduced after the Fugitive had already been killed. And they were also killed almost immediately after they were introduced.
oh okay i see, so how many scenes was cut out from the Fugitive Predator before his death ?
Unfortunately Fugitive was slated to die so, to a degree, his actions in that final fight can't wholly be blamed on him, if that makes sense. I'm choosing to personally interpret it that he knew he was outmatched, but he made a brave last stand to the best of his ability rather than fleeing. (Though I don't think it would be cowardly to try to draw Upgrade into a more advantageous situation, predator values are different, and like I and previous comments have said, the writers intended to kill him, so Fugitive's choices inevitably forced him into that situation.) He was definitely wasted, he was great, and it feels so obvious that it would've been more interesting to keep him around until later in the movie as a foil and foe to Upgrade.
Quote from: yautjapet on Sep 17, 2018, 06:57:14 AM
Unfortunately Fugitive was slated to die so, to a degree, his actions in that final fight can't wholly be blamed on him, if that makes sense. I'm choosing to personally interpret it that he knew he was outmatched, but he made a brave last stand to the best of his ability rather than fleeing. (Though I don't think it would be cowardly to try to draw Upgrade into a more advantageous situation, predator values are different, and like I and previous comments have said, the writers intended to kill him, so Fugitive's choices inevitably forced him into that situation.) He was definitely wasted, he was great, and it feels so obvious that it would've been more interesting to keep him around until later in the movie as a foil and foe to Upgrade.
same thing went down in predators the classic predator got outmatched by the super predator.
but at least he put up more of a fight.
I really think there's huge potential in Predator vs Predator but they keep executing it poorly. There's too much emphasise in trying to make the new guy come across as a bad ass. I think Black and co did a better job of making his Upgrade come across better than they did in Predators but damn, give us a longer go of the conflict.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Sep 17, 2018, 08:12:15 AM
I really think there's huge potential in Predator vs Predator but they keep executing it poorly. There's too much emphasise in trying to make the new guy come across as a bad ass. I think Black and co did a better job of making his Upgrade come across better than they did in Predators but damn, give us a longer go of the conflict.
did any of the stuff that got cut have anything to do with Fugitive vs Assasin ?
Not that I know of. But I still haven't read Screen Rant's article (I'm playing catch-up since I couldn't get on much over the weekend).
Quote from: Fugitive Predator on Sep 17, 2018, 08:26:55 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Sep 17, 2018, 08:12:15 AM
I really think there's huge potential in Predator vs Predator but they keep executing it poorly. There's too much emphasise in trying to make the new guy come across as a bad ass. I think Black and co did a better job of making his Upgrade come across better than they did in Predators but damn, give us a longer go of the conflict.
did any of the stuff that got cut have anything to do with Fugitive vs Assasin ?
Yes, prior to Fugitive being demolished by Upgrade, he tells McKenna and Co. to run because the Upgrade is targeting him, not the humans. So he gives them a warning to get out of the area before being attacked. Didn't understand why this part was removed.
Quote from: happypred on Sep 17, 2018, 02:09:47 AM
They should have had Fugitive try to outsmart Upgrade...perhaps even have the two of them play a bit of cat and mouse in the forest, with Fugitive kinda in Dutch's position in the first film (outmatched but using his cunning)
I feel like the fight we got was uninspired
Agree, would've been cool. But Black was handcuffed from the start on this one. I think Black had a lot of cool concepts that he didn't get to play out.
Quote from: Wysps on Sep 17, 2018, 06:05:33 PM
Quote from: Fugitive Predator on Sep 17, 2018, 08:26:55 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Sep 17, 2018, 08:12:15 AM
I really think there's huge potential in Predator vs Predator but they keep executing it poorly. There's too much emphasise in trying to make the new guy come across as a bad ass. I think Black and co did a better job of making his Upgrade come across better than they did in Predators but damn, give us a longer go of the conflict.
did any of the stuff that got cut have anything to do with Fugitive vs Assasin ?
Yes, prior to Fugitive being demolished by Upgrade, he tells McKenna and Co. to run because the Upgrade is targeting him, not the humans. So he gives them a warning to get out of the area before being attacked. Didn't understand why this part was removed.
Do we know if that was actually filmed?
It didn't have much of a point, just as Fugitive pursuing humans. Lazy writing, just a way to show how badass the upgrade is. My initial thoughts, and mostly I stand by them.
But there might be another thing. Humans already had the controller thingy. Upgrade was already there for him, there was no way (supposedly) he got away from that situation. So he just bought time.
I think this predator on predator thing is just too much, it doesn't bring out how really bad and brutal the character is. In its nature, towards unknown species..anyhow, just like the new movie, the whole concept (as the backbone of the ideas) is not inspiring. But I guess it's the way this works now.
I think some good Predator on Predator stalking (not just fisticuffs) could really be a highlight of the franchise
Audiences have never seen something like it and it has the potential to be really cool
What's really bad is that Upgrade killed Fugitive quickly but later he had problems with the rest of humans. I think both Predators were weak compared to Jungle Hunter and City Hunter. He had no problem obliterating Dutch's squad and Dutch took him only by suprise. Instead of prolonged fight Upgrade should have killed every human quickly with no effort.
It's inconsistent behaviour as the script demands.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Sep 17, 2018, 06:31:07 PM
Quote from: Wysps on Sep 17, 2018, 06:05:33 PM
Quote from: Fugitive Predator on Sep 17, 2018, 08:26:55 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Sep 17, 2018, 08:12:15 AM
I really think there's huge potential in Predator vs Predator but they keep executing it poorly. There's too much emphasise in trying to make the new guy come across as a bad ass. I think Black and co did a better job of making his Upgrade come across better than they did in Predators but damn, give us a longer go of the conflict.
did any of the stuff that got cut have anything to do with Fugitive vs Assasin ?
Yes, prior to Fugitive being demolished by Upgrade, he tells McKenna and Co. to run because the Upgrade is targeting him, not the humans. So he gives them a warning to get out of the area before being attacked. Didn't understand why this part was removed.
Do we know if that was actually filmed?
Honestly don't know :-\ It may have not even been filmed. Kind of feel like keeping it in there would have been beneficial though. At least it would have added a little more dimension to Fugitive and his motivation (i.e. to help the humans.)
Quote from: ep40 on Sep 18, 2018, 04:49:11 PM
What's really bad is that Upgrade killed Fugitive quickly but later he had problems with the rest of humans. I think both Predators were weak compared to Jungle Hunter and City Hunter. He had no problem obliterating Dutch's squad and Dutch took him only by suprise. Instead of prolonged fight Upgrade should have killed every human quickly with no effort.
This is one of my issues right here. Diminishing the lethality and effectiveness of Predators. The first two films followed individual hunters who we got to know through the course of the film, and while both died, they had a higher degree of credibility under their belt. I can't imagine either of them going down so easily. Fugitive did kill a bunch of people, but those badass feelings kinda go out the window when you see his head being ripped off, and missing a point blank plasmacaster shot only moments before. Predators aren't merely wildlife, ala the Aliens. Therefore their deaths hurt the fanbase a lot more.
Quote from: Huntsman on Sep 23, 2018, 02:48:56 AM
Quote from: ep40 on Sep 18, 2018, 04:49:11 PM
What's really bad is that Upgrade killed Fugitive quickly but later he had problems with the rest of humans. I think both Predators were weak compared to Jungle Hunter and City Hunter. He had no problem obliterating Dutch's squad and Dutch took him only by suprise. Instead of prolonged fight Upgrade should have killed every human quickly with no effort.
Predators aren't merely wildlife, ala the Aliens.
Neither are the Aliens...
Aliens are advanced killing machines and survivors. A plague. I'm not disputing that. I do think they are more like wildlife in comparison to Predators though. Like a lion who relies on its claws and mouth. It's a creature without the use of technology. Hundreds of Aliens die and it's not much of a big deal. One Pred dies and it's quite a big deal.
Quote from: Huntsman on Sep 23, 2018, 04:13:20 AM
Aliens are advanced killing machines and survivors. A plague. I'm not disputing that. I do think they are more like wildlife in comparison to Predators though. Like a lion who relies on its claws and mouth. It's a creature without the use of technology. Hundreds of Aliens die and it's not much of a big deal. One Pred dies and it's quite a big deal.
Why is it more of a big deal if a predator dies? Because he has technology? You're not making any sense.
How many Predators usually go on a hunt at a time? One or two - three in the case of AvP. How many Aliens get killed during the course of a hunt? Usually many, because they're a plague, with some becoming cannon fodder. There's so many of them even after large populations have been massacred. The death of the outnumbered hunter therefore carries more weight. The hunt is thrown into serious jeopardy. A Predator, especially with mask on, also resembles a human and that lends itself to a degree of humanisation. We're more likely to connect emotionally with a Pred in comparison to a Alien.
& That- in itself is a wrong portrayal, if I'm to give my opinion.
All adult Aliens should be equal, and all should have the potential to kill a Predator as an individual.
Just look at how it moves in the recent Alien prequel, I just don't believe that one on one the Predator wouldn't be obilterated.
Quote from: ep40 on Sep 18, 2018, 04:49:11 PM
What's really bad is that Upgrade killed Fugitive quickly but later he had problems with the rest of humans. I think both Predators were weak compared to Jungle Hunter and City Hunter. He had no problem obliterating Dutch's squad and Dutch took him only by suprise. Instead of prolonged fight Upgrade should have killed every human quickly with no effort.
Jungle Hunter was not stronger, he was just a true hunter and killed the team one at a time, usually with his plasma caster. He is one of my favorites but he is no juggernaut and never took out a room full of armed military forced with just claws and mandibles like Fugitive did, which is why I do find the latter falters considerably when it came to fighting the Upgrade, granted he was probably stunned from being pull through a wall and was recovering from sedation, but it still felt anti-climatic.
While not a fan of Upgrade, he wasn't being stealthy like the Jungle Hunter and was engaging his targets in close quarters, instead of using the tactics JH uses.
Quote from: The Old One on Sep 23, 2018, 12:24:24 PM
& That- in itself is a wrong portrayal, if I'm to give my opinion.
All adult Aliens should be equal, and all should have the potential to kill a Predator as an individual.
Just look at how it moves in the recent Alien prequel, I just don't believe that one on one the Predator wouldn't be obilterated.
I don't think Predators should ever be portrayed heroically or humanized either, that didn't do AVP any favors whatsoever.
I don't know about equal, I think older Aliens that have metamorphed a bit more, should be tougher but that doesn't mean the early stage of the adult Aliens should be weak either, I think they should be as strong if not stronger than Predators.
Quote from: The Old One on Sep 23, 2018, 12:24:24 PM
& That- in itself is a wrong portrayal, if I'm to give my opinion.
All adult Aliens should be equal, and all should have the potential to kill a Predator as an individual.
Just look at how it moves in the recent Alien prequel, I just don't believe that one on one the Predator wouldn't be obilterated.
In close combat, totally. But I don't think Aliens being taken down en-masse from a distance via sentry guns or plasmacasters disminishes their threat level at all. It's risk free from the hunter's perspective, like somebody gunning down a lion. The lion is still the king of the jungle. That's the type of combat I'm referring to here.
I never thought about the Alien maturing having an effect on how durable it is- but it is a sensible conclusion.
(As long as they don't all become the James Cameron Adult Alien design.
I believe those changes in morphology are because of an effort to conceal themselves in a hive environment.)
@Huntsman
There's only the inference that Aliens are killed by the Sentry Guns.
I believe people imagine far more Aliens die because of what we don't see-
Than do in the reality of the fiction.
I reall ylike the escape scene (most parts), but it didn't quite show if Fugitive was any different than a normal pred. Physically, anyways. Mentally, many aspects could change its actions, and I think he was impatient.
One question to everyone, here, it happened so quick, I can't remember. Did he take the control panel (khujad?)from McKenna when he offered it in the school? It's a big factor.
About aliens and predators, I think it's a concept thing: there anren't many predators onscreen you can't make them mincemeat in every scene you got. Since Aliens xenomorphs are rather expandable.
That's why I like the portrayal a little more in AC than in earlier sequels. It's deadly on its own. It should be. As I see one alien should be able to take out a predator, no need to bring a horde.
If ever an avp movie were made and it would be a lone alien against a lone predator, bringing out the potential in both creatures, that would be interesting.
Indeed, similar scenario to the original Alien and Predator-
Only our team doesn't realise it's being picked off by two creatures rather than the one.
Yea, something like that. In Alien the creature is also hunting the crew, picks them off one at a time. It's patient and intelligent. It resembles a predator (not the movie creature, but the type) maybe a bit more than the hunter in Predator.
A smart fight between the two would be extremely thrilling for me. Also, for once it'd be nice to give alien justice after avp:r
Quote from: huntin8-t0n on Sep 23, 2018, 01:37:26 PM
About aliens and predators, I think it's a concept thing: there anren't many predators onscreen you can't make them mincemeat in every scene you got. Since Aliens xenomorphs are rather expandable.
That's why I like the portrayal a little more in AC than in earlier sequels. It's deadly on its own. It should be. As I see one alien should be able to take out a predator, no need to bring a horde.
True as well. I think the fight in AvP was spot on. The Predator used his weapons perfectly, like a true professional hunter would, and can't be called ineffective or weak. He cut the Alien tail with the wristblades and wrapped it in a net, with a well timed shot. But the acid melts both the blades and the net, eventually resulting in an Alien victory. That's the trade off here, folks. The Predator needs to PREPARE for the hunt. The Alien does not.
The fight in AVP turned into a wrestling match, it was far from perfect.
Regardless I see your point.
I would agree but Celtic technically won, it was his hubris and overconfidence (the very slow walk and unsheathing of dagger) that allowed Grid the time to break free and overpower him. I didn't really like the wrestling aspect of the fight either, it could have been done better but there was some good shots in there, such as the alien's awareness of its own blood and using its severed tail as a weapon.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Sep 23, 2018, 12:42:31 PM
Jungle Hunter was not stronger, he was just a true hunter and killed the team one at a time, usually with his plasma caster. He is one of my favorites but he is no juggernaut and never took out a room full of armed military forced with just claws and mandibles like Fugitive did, which is why I do find the latter falters considerably when it came to fighting the Upgrade, granted he was probably stunned from being pull through a wall and was recovering from sedation, but it still felt anti-climatic.
While not a fan of Upgrade, he wasn't being stealthy like the Jungle Hunter and was engaging his targets in close quarters, instead of using the tactics JH uses.
More or less that's what I wanted to point out, JH strenght came not from physicality but from it's intelligence, from using tactics and hunting one on one. While Fugitive wasn't that bad up to the point before death, Upgrade would have been more succesful if he suprised his enemies, possibly leaving McKenna to be last man standing. But he decided to use raw strength and it partially contributed to his death.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Sep 23, 2018, 02:35:33 PM
I would agree but Celtic technically won, it was his hubris and overconfidence (the very slow walk and unsheathing of dagger) that allowed Grid the time to break free and overpower him. I didn't really like the wrestling aspect of the fight either, it could have been done better but there was some good shots in there, such as the alien's awareness of its own blood and using its severed tail as a weapon.
Indeed. I can appreciate the balance of the fight in terms of emphasising each creature's strengths.
Quote from: Huntsman on Sep 23, 2018, 09:40:04 AM
How many Predators usually go on a hunt at a time? One or two - three in the case of AvP. How many Aliens get killed during the course of a hunt? Usually many, because they're a plague, with some becoming cannon fodder. There's so many of them even after large populations have been massacred. The death of the outnumbered hunter therefore carries more weight. The hunt is thrown into serious jeopardy. A Predator, especially with mask on, also resembles a human and that lends itself to a degree of humanisation. We're more likely to connect emotionally with a Pred in comparison to a Alien.
Nobody should connect emotionally to a predator. He's a glorified serial killer.
I agree.
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on Sep 23, 2018, 08:27:59 PM
Quote from: Huntsman on Sep 23, 2018, 09:40:04 AM
How many Predators usually go on a hunt at a time? One or two - three in the case of AvP. How many Aliens get killed during the course of a hunt? Usually many, because they're a plague, with some becoming cannon fodder. There's so many of them even after large populations have been massacred. The death of the outnumbered hunter therefore carries more weight. The hunt is thrown into serious jeopardy. A Predator, especially with mask on, also resembles a human and that lends itself to a degree of humanisation. We're more likely to connect emotionally with a Pred in comparison to a Alien.
Nobody should connect emotionally to a predator. He's a glorified serial killer.
I think that's overstated. Predators hunt humans because they view us as animals, just as we hunt animals regardless of how intelligent or sapient/sentient they are because they are not human. Predator on Predator predation? That would be something different. There's a psychiatric profile that goes with serial killers - antisocial personality disorder, maybe some affective disorders or disorders with positive traits, etc. Hunting another species wouldn't qualify. If there's torture involved just for the sake of torture and an emotional response to that, then we can start talking about that profile. But hunting? I don't think so.
To add, the Prequel novel does a fantastic job in getting that viewpoint across. I'd recommend it honestly just for how fascinating the Predator POV is.
I think maybe what we need, instead of a 'standard vs super' setup, is a predator vs predator match-up that's more even.
We've only seen single predators hunting humans, or predators vs super predators. To switch it up a bit, maybe we need a story where it's a hunting competition between 2 (normal) predators. Kinda like the first movie but the humans involved don't realise it's not just a single killer.
It would mean the kills would be more interesting, since the predators would have to one-up each other, but the human characters could be kept off guard.
Quote from: The Old One on Sep 23, 2018, 02:13:10 PM
Indeed, similar scenario to the original Alien and Predator-
Only our team doesn't realise it's being picked off by two creatures rather than the one.
Quote from: Stitch on Sep 23, 2018, 09:16:03 PM
To switch it up a bit, maybe we need a story where it's a hunting competition between 2 (normal) predators.
That's what all the comics and games have been doing so far and it was better than what we got in last 2 movies. Don't get why those film makers and writers need to keep adding this super predator crap over and over.
Best "bad predator" was the one from Predator: Bad Blood, way creepier and more baddass than the Berserkers or the Upgrade, the bastard was like the psychopathic serial killer of the predator race. The guy really enjoyed the killing like he entered a trance state when doing it lol and seemed to be even into cannibalism. His sick personality was much more threatening than the Upgrade's height.
Personality is often more threatening than height.
Yep and that's what they should have focused on Predators and The Predator. Not the creature's apperance and size.
Jim Thomas and John Thomas in combination with a good Director is what I'd prefer, if anything at this point.
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on Sep 23, 2018, 08:27:59 PM
Quote from: Huntsman on Sep 23, 2018, 09:40:04 AM
How many Predators usually go on a hunt at a time? One or two - three in the case of AvP. How many Aliens get killed during the course of a hunt? Usually many, because they're a plague, with some becoming cannon fodder. There's so many of them even after large populations have been massacred. The death of the outnumbered hunter therefore carries more weight. The hunt is thrown into serious jeopardy. A Predator, especially with mask on, also resembles a human and that lends itself to a degree of humanisation. We're more likely to connect emotionally with a Pred in comparison to a Alien.
Nobody should connect emotionally to a predator. He's a glorified serial killer.
A Predator has two arms, two legs and a head. We see the creature healing itself in combat. That does lends itself to
a degree of humanisation, as I originally stated. I stand by that point.
Connecting emotionally might be a stretch but there's definitely enough human traits of a Predator to cheer for them or be invested in what they do. Scar and Fugitive showed they know how to communicate through hand gestures, they've got a sense of honour to a degree and they're even capable of being a bit snide e.g 'Shit Happens'
Get the right story and execute it correctly, you'll be cheering for the Predator no problem. It's not that hard to cheer against humans anyway, we'll f**k each other over for a percentage.
Quote from: Huntsman on Sep 24, 2018, 12:38:08 AM
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on Sep 23, 2018, 08:27:59 PM
Quote from: Huntsman on Sep 23, 2018, 09:40:04 AM
How many Predators usually go on a hunt at a time? One or two - three in the case of AvP. How many Aliens get killed during the course of a hunt? Usually many, because they're a plague, with some becoming cannon fodder. There's so many of them even after large populations have been massacred. The death of the outnumbered hunter therefore carries more weight. The hunt is thrown into serious jeopardy. A Predator, especially with mask on, also resembles a human and that lends itself to a degree of humanisation. We're more likely to connect emotionally with a Pred in comparison to a Alien.
Nobody should connect emotionally to a predator. He's a glorified serial killer.
A Predator has two arms, two legs and a head. We see the creature healing itself in combat. That does lends itself to a degree of humanisation, as I originally stated. I stand by that point.
I kind of connected/related with Scarface from Predator: Concrete Jungle, it was like the classic story of revenge against bad people but with a predator as the protagonist, it was somehow a humanized history. That was probably the predator with most personality so far, he did have some twisted sense of humor.
Yep the movie went down hill for me when the Fugitive Predator was killed off (loved his scenes and him escaping the compound)
But nooo they just had do to the typical cheesy hollywood thing of "out with the old and in with the new"
They basically used him in the same way Jurassic Park 3 used it's T-Rex
"Well if you think this thing is a badass! looks at this bigger badass!! wooooh"
Hollywood needs to get it's shit together and start making good movies again.
and stop copying Marvel humor!! it works for them and them alone.
Quote from: Dark Passenger on Sep 24, 2018, 01:54:24 AM
Yep the movie went down hill for me when the Fugitive Predator was killed off (loved his scenes and him escaping the compound)
But nooo they just had do to the typical cheesy hollywood thing of "out with the old and in with the new"
I would've still had Upgrade hunting Fugitive, but Fugitive would've killed Upgrade at the very end. The theme would've been 'the pure Predator brings honour back to the clan'.
@Huntsman
Yeah that would have been better, but still wouldn't have fixed the over the top Marvel like humor etc.
But still would have been an improvement and could have cleaned up the mess that is the third act.
I really liked the balance they struck with Fugitive. He can be funny or likable, but at no point is there any doubt that he's a serious threat. The 'thumbs up' scene (by itself worth the price of admission, IMO) is a good example; the humor comes from the fact that he's a psycho space monster rather than contradict it. I wish he was in the movie for longer, especially to kick Upgrade's wooden ass. I would've liked him to interact with the kid at least once.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Sep 23, 2018, 10:36:23 PM
Quote from: Stitch on Sep 23, 2018, 09:16:03 PM
To switch it up a bit, maybe we need a story where it's a hunting competition between 2 (normal) predators.
That's what all the comics and games have been doing so far and it was better than what we got in last 2 movies. Don't get why those film makers and writers need to keep adding this super predator crap over and over.
Best "bad predator" was the one from Predator: Bad Blood, way creepier and more baddass than the Berserkers or the Upgrade, the bastard was like the psychopathic serial killer of the predator race. The guy really enjoyed the killing like he entered a trance state when doing it lol and seemed to be even into cannibalism. His sick personality was much more threatening than the Upgrade's height.
Precisely. The Predator could still have maintained the upgrade angle but had less of a machine of another Predator and made it clear that it was a point of conflict between 2 differing clans. I really want to see some Predator vs. Predator realised properly but it's never drawn out or earned. It's just quickly brushed aside and not satisfying.
I don't believe the humor needed to be changed, everything else did to a degree.
Quote from: Huntsman on Sep 23, 2018, 02:28:20 PM
Quote from: huntin8-t0n on Sep 23, 2018, 01:37:26 PM
About aliens and predators, I think it's a concept thing: there anren't many predators onscreen you can't make them mincemeat in every scene you got. Since Aliens xenomorphs are rather expandable.
That's why I like the portrayal a little more in AC than in earlier sequels. It's deadly on its own. It should be. As I see one alien should be able to take out a predator, no need to bring a horde.
True as well. I think the fight in AvP was spot on. The Predator used his weapons perfectly, like a true professional hunter would, and can't be called ineffective or weak. He cut the Alien tail with the wristblades and wrapped it in a net, with a well timed shot. But the acid melts both the blades and the net, eventually resulting in an Alien victory. That's the trade off here, folks. The Predator needs to PREPARE for the hunt. The Alien does not.
True, AvP was much closer than, let's say avpr. But for me it's the stalking game and not only battle of bodies, but battle of ..let's call it minds/instincts would be interesting. Alien's ruthless instincts and I think intellect is being dismissed. It's a killing machine, but so adaptive, it's scary.
Dead on.
Quote from: huntin8-t0n on Sep 24, 2018, 02:46:59 PM
Alien's ruthless instincts and I think intellect is being dismissed. It's a killing machine, but so adaptive, it's scary.
Welcome to 90% of avp material where the aliens get nerfed to make the predator look "cool". Even as a kid first getting into the comics/books/games it annoyed me.
Even the height is in favor of the predators on film, despite both creatures supposed to be roughly the same height. The first Alien movie was perfect in this aspect, made you feel big chap was huge and intimidating all the time.
If you have a "Covenant Xenomorph" figure, all you need to do is stand it upright to a JH figure to grasp what the genuine height difference is.
(NECA)
Quote from: happypred on Sep 17, 2018, 02:09:47 AM
They should have had Fugitive try to outsmart Upgrade...perhaps even have the two of them play a bit of cat and mouse in the forest, with Fugitive kinda in Dutch's position in the first film (outmatched but using his cunning)
You put more thought into this than the screenwriters did.
I think the problem with the normal Pred vs bigger Pred thing is no one REALLY wants to see the classic version lose - you should root for the underdog.
True, & isn't helped by the fact that Fugitive's performance is the best Predator we've seen since JH & CH.
Quote from: King geedorah on Sep 24, 2018, 04:04:11 PM
Quote from: huntin8-t0n on Sep 24, 2018, 02:46:59 PM
Alien's ruthless instincts and I think intellect is being dismissed. It's a killing machine, but so adaptive, it's scary.
Welcome to 90% of avp material where the aliens get nerfed to make the predator look "cool". Even as a kid first getting into the comics/books/games it annoyed me.
You can thank James Cameron for that.
Really? How so?
It's down to people's perspective on what "Aliens' is rather than what happens onscreen, influencing the EU media.
For instance, only a minor number of Aliens die onscreen due to the Colonial Marines.
But people assume more do.
I was a being a little facetious with that question, I am already aware of the tragic and willful ignorance behind the thoughts of some fans on Aliens. "Cameron turned them into bugs" "Cameron made them weak" :P If someone prefers Alien or any other Alien movie then that is completely fine but making excuses like that is just silly.
Apparently it doesn't occur to those types of fans that the Aliens were already bugs since the first movie and never had to deal with 10mm explosive tip casing ammunition fired from experienced marines before. Big Chap is a living work of art and excellent movie monster, but it would die just the same if it dealt with Marines and not space truckers.
Admittedly, Aliens did influence the EU media as you said and while some comics, books and games have been good, they are also a tired format. Alien: Isolation was brilliant for a lot of reasons, one of them being that it references the first movie instead of the second one.
Marines with bad attitudes. Queen Aliens and pulse rifles gets repetitive after awhile. Its pretty much a good example of why too much of a good thing is a bad thing.
My criticisms of "Aliens" funny enough, have nothing to do with the creatures.
Quote from: happypred on Sep 17, 2018, 02:09:47 AM
They should have had Fugitive try to outsmart Upgrade...perhaps even have the two of them play a bit of cat and mouse in the forest, with Fugitive kinda in Dutch's position in the first film (outmatched but using his cunning)
I feel like the fight we got was uninspired
I agree. I also dislike the idea that the original predator is not "good enough" to hold a movie. He's the goddamn Predator! He is enough of a threat as he is!
Quote from: Gilfryd on Sep 24, 2018, 05:26:03 PM
I think the problem with the normal Pred vs bigger Pred thing is no one REALLY wants to see the classic version lose - you should root for the underdog.
And I can't recall a single movie that used the "New awesome one kills the stodgy old one" technique that actually made me think the new one was cool or scary. It always comes off as lame and insecure, that the filmmaker can't think of any other way to do it than to try and somehow one-up previous directors. Does anyone anywhere prefer the Spinosaur to the T-Rex, the Newborn to the Queen, or the Berserker or Upgrade to the original Predator? I highly doubt it.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Sep 24, 2018, 05:42:03 PM
Really? How so?
-Aliens being run over
-Aliens being shot to bits in seemingly large numbers
-Aliens being mowed down by the sentries in a tunnel till the ammo runs out
Or at least suggested. Which in turn influenced later comics and films.
My main criticism of Aliens is the shallowness of the characters, even considered how well executed the film is. I don't hate the film by any means, but I do think many are blinded by the technical finesse that it displays, much like the other Cameron film of recent years ;)
As a biologisy, i think cameron did a perfect job, he gave the aliens a interesting and realistic lifecycle, he turn them into a social species.
Of course aliens died vs colonial marines, they had weapons, apc, the droship.. And they destroy all of these, they found another way to enter, during the whole movie they suggest they are smart creatures, the feeling is that even with weapons, they got theyr ass kicked.
The queen even comunicates with ripley, he let her go..
So no, of course big chap looked diferent, he was facing space truckers with no armours, experience or tactics and a cat, aliens faced a group of experienced and well trained marines with explosive bullets..
Quote from: skull-splitter on Sep 25, 2018, 04:53:27 AM
Quote from: The Cruentus on Sep 24, 2018, 05:42:03 PM
Really? How so?
-Aliens being run over
-Aliens being shot to bits in seemingly large numbers
-Aliens being mowed down by the sentries in a tunnel till the ammo runs out
Or at least suggested. Which in turn influenced later comics and films.
My main criticism of Aliens is the shallowness of the characters, even considered how well executed the film is. I don't hate the film by any means, but I do think many are blinded by the technical finesse that it displays, much like the other Cameron film of recent years ;)
All of those could easily happen to big chap, he was never invincible, he just wasn't in a situation where he could be safely killed.
A Tiger is an unstoppable monster to someone without a large calibre gun, but have some military trained folks with decent guns and the Tiger is killable but no less a threat given the chance. Same goes with the Alien.
I agree that the characters are quicky and pretty much known for that, but back then it might not been such a cliche to have character archtypes.
Way to steamroll over the argument.
Quote from: happypred on Sep 17, 2018, 02:09:47 AM
They should have had Fugitive try to outsmart Upgrade...perhaps even have the two of them play a bit of cat and mouse in the forest, with Fugitive kinda in Dutch's position in the first film (outmatched but using his cunning)
I feel like the fight we got was uninspired
Well, i love me some good monster fight, but if they would have done it your way it would have missed the point entirely.
The whole scene was just a setup to show how meaningless und useless a normal Predator is supposed to be in comparison to the assasin. We don't get much of a fight because, well, it's no opponent.
So in that regard, it perfect to the point, it's fast and brutal. Besides that, i don't think fugitive himself ever believed he could win, he just wouldn't go without a bang.
The problem is that i do think he can win, i think a regular predator with plasmacaster, jumping and using wepons can defeat the big stupid thing
Quote from: Nathsp on Sep 25, 2018, 09:41:40 AM
The problem is that i do think he can win, i think a regular predator with plasmacaster, jumping and using wepons can defeat the big stupid thing
You're talking fanservice here, yes, it would have been nice as i love the classic ones more. They didn't go for that though, they went for the story. And that scene was supposed to bring across the point that the assassin is the best one, and they did that perfectly fine.
You wanna introduce the new Predator as being the stronger one... by outsmarting and defeating it? Uhh no. It wasn't a wasted opportunity as it was never supposed to be eye candy or a glorious moment for both creatures to fight to the death in an all epic fight... the big one should crush the small one, done that, next, and him having no effort was the point.
But thats my point. I dont think he is the best one, not for fan service, its just bigger, i dont think the design is good to make me think that, most of the time he kills with a hook, as bad as avpr is, wolf weaponry is huge and make me think wolf can defeat upgrade, just weapons, tons of weapons, of course if he goes face to face he would bite the dust, but if you dont let him aproach, its just a bigger target, fire with all the plsma, mines, blades you have, aint no natural armour that can hold plasma for long..
Quote from: Johnny Handsome on Sep 25, 2018, 10:08:51 AM
Quote from: Nathsp on Sep 25, 2018, 09:41:40 AM
The problem is that i do think he can win, i think a regular predator with plasmacaster, jumping and using wepons can defeat the big stupid thing
You're talking fanservice here, yes, it would have been nice as i love the classic ones more. They didn't go for that though, they went for the story. And that scene was supposed to bring across the point that the assassin is the best one, and they did that perfectly fine.
You wanna introduce the new Predator as being the stronger one... by outsmarting and defeating it? Uhh no. It wasn't a wasted opportunity as it was never supposed to be eye candy or a glorious moment for both creatures to fight to the death in an all epic fight... the big one should crush the small one, done that, next, and him having no effort was the point.
You're talking to someone who seems often blinded by his emotions and his fan side though.
Also: just making him bigger wasn't good enough, it had to slaughter the more classic built one.
It's one of the more hamfisted things in this film along with the DNA non sense.
Again, it's the fan side speaking here, not the story-coherence side.
I don't mind that Fugitive bit it but I would have preferred a better fight.
It doesn't matter much, when there was no story coherence to begin with.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Sep 25, 2018, 12:30:09 PM
Again, it's the fan side speaking here, not the story-coherence side.
Its no fan side, im being objective, i do think a pred with some good weapons can kill the upgrade, its not fan side, a long / medium range weapons, like plasma guns, plus some evasion..
Quote from: Uncanny Antman on Sep 25, 2018, 03:37:53 AMAnd I can't recall a single movie that used the "New awesome one kills the stodgy old one" technique that actually made me think the new one was cool or scary. It always comes off as lame and insecure, that the filmmaker can't think of any other way to do it than to try and somehow one-up previous directors. Does anyone anywhere prefer the Spinosaur to the T-Rex, the Newborn to the Queen, or the Berserker or Upgrade to the original Predator? I highly doubt it.
Yeah exactly!
Although I have to say if any of those come close to working it's the Newborn killing its birth mother right out of the womb and choosing Ripley instead, it's very creepy and I certainly prefer the movie Newborn over the original script's giant flying bloodsucking monster thing.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Sep 25, 2018, 12:35:59 PM
I don't mind that Fugitive bit it but I would have preferred a better fight.
Same. I can see why the Fugitive eating it at the hands of the Upgrade was necessary (to show how "strong/advanced" he was), but the Fugitive definitely had more to add than what we got. If they could have at least let him narrowly escape and get owned later in the movie... give him some more screen time.
Quote from: Gilfryd on Sep 25, 2018, 11:00:30 PM
Quote from: Uncanny Antman on Sep 25, 2018, 03:37:53 AMAnd I can't recall a single movie that used the "New awesome one kills the stodgy old one" technique that actually made me think the new one was cool or scary. It always comes off as lame and insecure, that the filmmaker can't think of any other way to do it than to try and somehow one-up previous directors. Does anyone anywhere prefer the Spinosaur to the T-Rex, the Newborn to the Queen, or the Berserker or Upgrade to the original Predator? I highly doubt it.
Yeah exactly!
Although I have to say if any of those come close to working it's the Newborn killing its birth mother right out of the womb and choosing Ripley instead, it's very creepy and I certainly prefer the movie Newborn over the original script's giant flying bloodsucking monster thing.
Berserker one is justified though, it never beats the classic by being better, the fight is one sided because classic was in a poor state and Mr.Black just ups and begins firing his plasma caster so he is a cheater to boot.
*whispers* All Predators are cheaters. :o
I couldn't believe how fast the fight was over. They practically showed everything in that clip before the movie was released. I guess I understand from a story point how the Upgrade was supposed to be stronger, but it was over before it even began.
AvP has the best fight scene between two creatures as far as these movies are concerned. It was long, had some suspense, and had a surprise ending to it. At least I was surprised by it when I first saw it.
Quote from: Nathsp on Sep 25, 2018, 09:11:11 AMof course big chap looked diferent, he was facing space truckers with no armours, experience or tactics and a cat, aliens faced a group of experienced and well trained marines with explosive bullets
Yup...ppl complain that Cameron devalued the aliens, but he simply threw them against harder opposition...and the aliens still "won"
Quote from: happypred on Sep 27, 2018, 03:01:11 AM
Quote from: Nathsp on Sep 25, 2018, 09:11:11 AMof course big chap looked diferent, he was facing space truckers with no armours, experience or tactics and a cat, aliens faced a group of experienced and well trained marines with explosive bullets
Yup...ppl complain that Cameron devalued the aliens, but he simply threw them against harder opposition...and the aliens still "won"
Im totally agree, they had tons of weapons, and tje feeling all the movie is thay they got their ass kicked by creatures with claws, tails and tongues
Quote from: happypred on Sep 27, 2018, 03:01:11 AM
Quote from: Nathsp on Sep 25, 2018, 09:11:11 AMof course big chap looked diferent, he was facing space truckers with no armours, experience or tactics and a cat, aliens faced a group of experienced and well trained marines with explosive bullets
Yup...ppl complain that Cameron devalued the aliens, but he simply threw them against harder opposition...and the aliens still "won"
It was implied that it was a numbers game. 200+ families, let's say at least 500 aliens. Against ten with limited ammo.
There you go.
Quote from: skull-splitter on Sep 27, 2018, 07:43:57 AM
Quote from: happypred on Sep 27, 2018, 03:01:11 AM
Quote from: Nathsp on Sep 25, 2018, 09:11:11 AMof course big chap looked diferent, he was facing space truckers with no armours, experience or tactics and a cat, aliens faced a group of experienced and well trained marines with explosive bullets
Yup...ppl complain that Cameron devalued the aliens, but he simply threw them against harder opposition...and the aliens still "won"
It was implied that it was a numbers game. 200+ families, let's say at least 500 aliens. Against ten with limited ammo.
There you go.
There was only 158 colonists and not all of them were iimpregnated, some were likely just killed.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Sep 17, 2018, 08:12:15 AM
I really think there's huge potential in Predator vs Predator but they keep executing it poorly. There's too much emphasise in trying to make the new guy come across as a bad ass. I think Black and co did a better job of making his Upgrade come across better than they did in Predators but damn, give us a longer go of the conflict.
Like I've PM'ed you before. Fugitive and his co-Predators we're ment to do alot more... still trying to get more information from my friend. But he's been silent for the past week :-[
Unfortunatly, the studio felt that 3 "normal" Predators vs 1 Super Predator wasn't good to sell the "Assassin" to the crowd. So, they cut 'em.
Hadleys hope, population 158... Aliens are not gremlins, so 157 aliens at maximum.. From 157 to 500 theres a lot of aliens..
Aliens really pulled off action-horror. Not sure if any other film has done it as well. I actually think the first Predator film comes admirably close (it's still leans more toward action IMO)
Quote from: Nathsp on Sep 27, 2018, 02:48:46 PM
Hadleys hope, population 158... Aliens are not gremlins, so 157 aliens at maximum.. From 157 to 500 theres a lot of aliens..
It's been a loooooong time since I watched it to be honest, just thought it was a lot of families.
Even 120 aliens or just 70 would massively outnumber the marines.
I'd guess 100 to 150 xenomorphs
Besides the point, they just wore the marines down in waves.
Quote from: happypred on Sep 28, 2018, 05:01:00 AM
Aliens really pulled off action-horror. Not sure if any other film has done it as well. I actually think the first Predator film comes admirably close (it's still leans more toward action IMO)
The first Predator film is a stone cold classic, and one of the best action films ever made. Frankly, it's the only film the franchise requires/required. The Aliens vibe is creepier. It has a lot to do with the setting. I love the jungle and it's quintessential Predator. But a dimly lit spaceship is quintessential Alien, and gives me more shivers.