Ask Jeff VanderMeer

Started by Corporal Hicks, Dec 16, 2008, 09:02:44 AM

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Ask Jeff VanderMeer (Read 43,812 times)

SiL

SiL

#45
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 20, 2008, 04:01:52 PM
I mean, why are they always hitch-hiking onboard spaceships when they're allegedly intelligent enough to make starships of their own?
Why wouldn't they use guns, or vehicles, or body-armor, as opposed to running head-long into automatic gunfire?

(it's probably because they're not super-geniuses ;) )
Simple:

Every hive we've ever seen is ignorant.

That's what O'Bannon postulated and that's what I've stuck with ever since. The first Alien wasn't just deadly - It was a baby, had no idea what the shit was going on, and didn't have the best idea what to do.

Humans are smart, right? Planes and cars and microprocessors and all that?

Two things.

Firstly, can you build a microprocessor? If by cruel chance that's your profession, well, I can't. And I don't know anyone else who can.

Secondly, if you took a person, chucked 'em in the wild, and watched 'em grow (assuming they weren't eaten/starved to death) ... do you honestly think they'd be anywhere near as intelligent as the rest of us? Sure, they'd have some pretty good problem solving skills and learn how to make basic tools, maybe even clothes.

But chances are they couldn't even make a fire, let alone do basic maths.

Which is exactly what we've seen every time we've had Aliens on-screen. The hive, the individual, has started fresh. Yes, Alien Resurrected said there were "genetic memories", but the life and times of Bobby the Hobo isn't going to do me much friggin' good if I find myself in the arctic tundra, is it?

Additionally there's no way of knowing if that was just the Queen that gets them.

Human intelligence - Our ability to build guns, vehicles, computers, etc. - comes from all the knowledge of past generations being handed down to the next. One generation learns some stuff, passes it down, the next generation learns more stuff to go on top of it, etc. The people who build microprocessors now are only doing so because they have the work of hundreds of other people as a starting point.

Until we get to the Alien homeworld, or see a hive that's had uninterrupted development for a prolonged period of time, it's pretty unfair to say just how intelligent they are based entirely on the goings-on of a few ignorant individuals.

On their homeworld they might act entirely differently to how they've been shown so far. They might be doing basic lab work, like in Labyrinth, or the ant analogy could've gone to the limit and they're farming livestock, cultivating plants, making slaves, etc.

They might have architecture beyond the hastily constructed hive-goo-slapped-on-a-wall look. Hell, O'Bannon might be right. They might have writing or a weird non-ant social order.

I don't think they should be shown as starship-building intelligent, or anything near that, but the possibilities are certainly there.

JeffVanderMeer

JeffVanderMeer

#46
Right--hive mind and all of that. A whale is pretty darn intelligent, but without thumbs and a language we can understand, they look just as dumb as a fish.

Perhaps there is a kinder, gentler Alien underneath that darkened dome--one that reads poetry and plays croquet... ;)

SiL

SiL

#47
I think Ridley Scott mentioned something about an "alien society based on sadism", but I could be misremembering.

Anyone got the 20th anniversary DVD of Alien handy? :P

Xenomrph

Xenomrph

#48
No I can't build a microprocessor, but I can operate simple tools, and can construct them were I placed in the wild and forced to fend for myself.
Granted, Aliens might not need to do such things due to their own natural abilities or whatever, but tools could only improve those abilities.

Aliens probably exhibit forms of intelligence that are foreign to us because they are completely alien creatures (I'm hesitant to say it's because they took a different evolutionary path, because that ignores the possibility that Aliens were artificially created I guess). However to say they're "as smart as humans" (or smarter) is pretty false. They may be "as smart as humans"... but in ways we don't comprehend, or in ways we don't personally exhibit because we aren't Aliens and they aren't Humans. On human standards of intelligence (technology use, tool use, morality, creativity, and other similar things.

People building microprocessors do it on the basis of humans that came before them, yes, but an important part of that is also understanding and applying that prior knowledge. You'd think that Aliens, which their apparent genetic, hive-based mental capacities, would grasp concepts more easily across multiple generations. And if Aliens are very old (judging by how long Predators have been hunting them, or the age of the Space Jockey ship and its cargo, not to mention other expanded universe sources that explicitly spell out that Aliens as a species are extremely old and as individuals are extremely long-lived) they certainly don't exhibit human-style intellect or reasoning.

The point is, saying they're "as smart as humans" is a nonsensical statement. :P They're smart in different ways, similar to how a lion or dolphin is smart in ways that apply to its way of life.

Johnny Handsome

Johnny Handsome

#49
I don't think that they are smarter then humans or as smart as us. They have shown that they have intelligence and strategy and they are certainly not dumb, but not very smart either.

Someone mentioned that we only saw Aliens that were baby's, sure they were young but when we look at aliens, the hive was already a couple of days or even weeks there before the marines arrived, giving the aliens plenty of time to feel home there. Still, they need hours to get a way to the marines when they placed the robot guns, which they ran right into before. They didn't found the girl, or found her but didn't got her.
So the theory of the "It had no idea where it was or what was going on" isn't really true here.

I like the idea of Intelligent Aliens, but lets not make them any more intelligent then they are or at least what the movies had shown.

SiL

SiL

#50
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 21, 2008, 01:20:43 AM
No I can't build a microprocessor, but I can operate simple tools, and can construct them were I placed in the wild and forced to fend for myself.
Granted, Aliens might not need to do such things due to their own natural abilities or whatever, but tools could only improve those abilities.
Aliens have proved more than capable of operating doors and the like, if shown how. When have they ever really been in a situation where they'd need to make a tool? Aside from long-ranged weapons to help them with the pesky humans across the room, we haven't really seen a situation where tool-making would be necessary.

QuoteHowever to say they're "as smart as humans" (or smarter) is pretty false.
As is flat-out saying they aren't.

QuoteYou'd think that Aliens, which their apparent genetic, hive-based mental capacities, would grasp concepts more easily across multiple generations.
Again - How are the life and times of Bobby the Hobo going to help me in the Arctic tundra? The only Aliens we've ever seen have been in hives that are mere days old, artificially created, or constantly manipulated in minimum surroundings.

Until we see Aliens on their homeworld, or as I said, in a hive that's been around a long time with no interruption or gross interference like AvP, you can't flat-out say that they're lacking tool making capabilities, or reasoning skills, or anything like that.

It's taking you away from civilisation at birth, chucking you in the wild, then basing the entirety of human intelligence based on how you act.

Quote from: Johnny Handsome on Dec 21, 2008, 03:43:08 AM
Someone mentioned that we only saw Aliens that were baby's, sure they were young but when we look at aliens, the hive was already a couple of days or even weeks there before the marines arrived, giving the aliens plenty of time to feel home there.
And they did. They got in through the suspended ceilings and subflooring that the marines didn't even know about. They operated doors.

QuoteStill, they need hours to get a way to the marines when they placed the robot guns, which they ran right into before.
Running into guns is a tactic humans had been using well before anyone even thought up of an Alien. You test the defenses. If they don't break, then you cut your losses and pull back and find an alternate route - All things the Aliens did. There's never any indication of how many Aliens are actually killed by the guns - The film itself implies not a whole heap.

QuoteThey didn't found the girl, or found her but didn't got her.
There was barely enough room for Ripley to get into where she was hiding, let alone an Alien.

Like I said, I'm not trying to say they can build spaceships.

But using the movies as a limit to their intelligence is grossly unfair considering the circumstances we find them.

Xenomrph

Xenomrph

#51
QuoteThe only Aliens we've ever seen have been in hives that are mere days old, artificially created, or constantly manipulated in minimum surroundings.

Until we see Aliens on their homeworld, or as I said, in a hive that's been around a long time with no interruption or gross interference like AvP, you can't flat-out say that they're lacking tool making capabilities, or reasoning skills, or anything like that.
Sure I can, there's a whole lot of novels and comics and games that show exactly what they're capable of. Hell, the sources that show them being "the smartest" are 'Aliens: Labyrinth' and the AvP2 PC game. :)

QuoteThey operated doors.
Not in 'Aliens' they didn't. They banged against the pressure doors, and they banged against the door Vasquez was welding shut in Ops. The only door that seemed to open for one was the one on the Dropship before Ferro got killed, and there's plenty of explanations for why the door opened (and if nothing else, it begs the question why they didn't open doors anywhere else).

SiL

SiL

#52
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 21, 2008, 08:23:13 AM
Sure I can, there's a whole lot of novels and comics and games that show exactly what they're capable of.
Oh f**k the EU ...

No offense, Mr VanderMeer :P

QuoteHell, the sources that show them being "the smartest" are 'Aliens: Labyrinth'
Which shows them as biochemists. Which requires a fair friggin' greater deal of intelligence than tool making.

QuoteThey banged against the pressure doors,
Sealed.

Quoteand they banged against the door Vasquez was welding shut in Ops.
Yeah, I'm thinking the fact they just, as you said, welded the door shut may have had something to do with that. Unless you can still open a door normally after someone's sealed it shut ... ? Personal experience speaks to the contrary.

Quote(and if nothing else, it begs the question why they didn't open doors anywhere else).
Burke. He backs up towards the door, and then it opens. He doesn't press the button.

Xenomrph

Xenomrph

#53
QuoteBurke. He backs up towards the door, and then it opens. He doesn't press the button.
Actually he does hit the button in the movie. :) In the novelization, an Alien forces the door open and stings him with its tail.

QuoteOh f**k the EU ...
Hey, just sayin'. ;) Especially since we're talking in the "Literature" forum and all, I'd think it'd be fair game. :)

JeffVanderMeer

JeffVanderMeer

#54
This is a pretty fascinating discussion, and very useful if I wind up doing an Aliens novel.
JV

Corporal Hicks

Corporal Hicks

#55
And bearing in mind, like SiL said, all the Aliens we've observed in the film are young and people are arguing that it shows intelligence, but consider how long it takes a human being to learn things such as basic tool operation, communication and etc.


JeffVanderMeer

JeffVanderMeer

#56
So what you're saying is the Aliens movies are basically what Alien parents would show their kids. Nursery rhymes for aliens. ;)

chupacabras acheronsis

chupacabras acheronsis

#57
hi.

didn't that info was transmitted trough their genes(hive mind) or they actually learn like us (independent of any other human)? ???

War Wager

War Wager

#58
I'm all for the idea that they inherit memories from their hosts. This makes sense in all movies.

Xenomrph

Xenomrph

#59
Quote from: War Wager on Dec 21, 2008, 08:33:47 PM
I'm all for the idea that they inherit memories from their hosts. This makes sense in all movies.
I don't like that idea because how would the Aliens even comprehend what they "inherited" from their hosts? That's part of the point of the Aliens, they're alien, so they think and act differently from us. We can't comprehend how they think, and therefore they wouldn't be able to comprehend how we think either.

Learning things and then having "genetic memory" between Aliens and subsequent generations? Sure, I could buy that. But an Alien that would know how to play chess because it was born from a chess Grand Master? Yeah, that's really really stretching it for me.

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