Quote"They're working on the script. I met Ridley in London a couple of weeks ago. I would love to work with him again and I know that he would like to do another one. It's just like we need to find the right story. I hope we will."
Well that's curious that she's even hoping. I thought it was already confirmed in the works?
http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/exclusive-noomi-rapace-says-prometheus-sequel-script-being-worked-on-now-20130226 (http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/exclusive-noomi-rapace-says-prometheus-sequel-script-being-worked-on-now-20130226)
For those who'd like to see.
Quote from: draken161 on Feb 27, 2013, 06:59:15 AM
Quote"They're working on the script. I met Ridley in London a couple of weeks ago. I would love to work with him again and I know that he would like to do another one. It's just like we need to find the right story. I hope we will."
Well that's curious that she's even hoping. I thought it was already confirmed in the works?
http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/exclusive-noomi-rapace-says-prometheus-sequel-script-being-worked-on-now-20130226 (http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/exclusive-noomi-rapace-says-prometheus-sequel-script-being-worked-on-now-20130226)
For those who'd like to see.
Not surprising really as any movie in development can be mothballed and end up in development hell. Nice to know they've not just green lit a sequel for the sake of it. This may result in a script that we may all be able to get behind...
Fingers crossed. Here's hoping Jon Spaihts is the writer on board :)
Quote from: Blacklabel on Feb 27, 2013, 08:01:47 AM
Fingers crossed. Here's hoping Jon Spaihts is the writer on board :)
He's tweeting a lot (about writing) :)
Quote"You would have to ask someone at the studio about who the writer is."
We prodded -- was she sure she can't squeal?
"No!" she chirped back.
The Brothers Strause?
Nice to have some news at last : )
But it wasn't in the shape of a coded message or star map!
poor Noomi still hoping for a decent sequel
Quote from: szkoki on Feb 27, 2013, 11:29:19 AM
poor Noomi still hoping for a decent sequel
I'm still waiting for a decent Alien prequel.
Goddamn it Ridley.
Keep dreaming.
Good news.
Quote from: Zenzucht on Feb 27, 2013, 08:40:02 AM
Quote from: Blacklabel on Feb 27, 2013, 08:01:47 AM
Fingers crossed. Here's hoping Jon Spaihts is the writer on board :)
He's tweeting a lot (about writing) :)
i think it might be - after all it was he who came up with Prometheus before the studio hired DL to make it less Alieny (and because he did some big movies) and didnt his intial script go down abit better than what we got with DLs? (i dunno though)
anyway he probably has had the sequel idea mapped out for a while now...it makes total sense the studio would give him the job as sole writer
Spaihts' script demonstrated that he didn't really know the Alien universe very well, and his Aliens were weaker than those in A:CM. I'd rather they get someone proven.
Fingers crossed. I hope this moves forward.
It's going to be good. It's what I choose to believe.
It's not going to focus on Shaw, that's for sure. You can't make a movie with a single woman and an android's head. I mean, you can - when you're making a low-budget s-f like Moon, but not when you hire Ridley Scott and give him 100 million bucks to waste. It's gonna be mainstream and mainstream needs lots of dialogue and some cannon fodder. So I guess it'll be about searching for Shaw, and in the end they're gonna find her on the engineers' planet, then fight some monsters and explode the planet.
Really, this series is rather predictable about its endings:
Alien - big explosion
Aliens - big explosion
A:R - big explosion
AVP - big explosion
AVPR - big explosion
Prometheus - big explosion
Geee, I wonder what happens next.
Quote from: Narusz on Feb 27, 2013, 02:19:05 PM
It's not going to focus on Shaw, that's for sure. You can't make a movie with a single woman and an android's head. I mean, you can - when you're making a low-budget s-f like Moon, but not when you hire Ridley Scott and give him 100 million bucks to waste. It's gonna be mainstream and mainstream needs lots of dialogue and some cannon fodder. So I guess it'll be about searching for Shaw, and in the end they're gonna find her on the engineers' planet, then fight some monsters and explode the planet.
Really, this series is rather predictable about its endings:
Alien - big explosion
Aliens - big explosion
A:R - big explosion
AVP - big explosion
AVPR - big explosion
Prometheus - big explosion
Geee, I wonder what happens next.
Have you seen
Alien and
Aliens?
Alien ended with one character and a cat, and they still made a sequel with the same lead.
I could see them doing something like letting Shaw make it to Paradise and finding humans (or human-like creatures also derived from the Engineers) already living there.
Great to hear she's up for returning. :)
Quote from: Elicas on Feb 27, 2013, 11:31:14 AM
I'm still waiting for a decent Alien prequel.
Oh, you must've missed it. Came out last year!
Quote from: Narusz on Feb 27, 2013, 02:19:05 PM
It's not going to focus on Shaw, that's for sure. You can't make a movie with a single woman and an android's head. I mean, you can - when you're making a low-budget s-f like Moon, but not when you hire Ridley Scott and give him 100 million bucks to waste. It's gonna be mainstream and mainstream needs lots of dialogue and some cannon fodder. So I guess it'll be about searching for Shaw, and in the end they're gonna find her on the engineers' planet, then fight some monsters and explode the planet.
Really, this series is rather predictable about its endings:
Alien - big explosion
Aliens - big explosion
A:R - big explosion
AVP - big explosion
AVPR - big explosion
Prometheus - big explosion
Geee, I wonder what happens next.
Except there's this quote from Scott; "I'd love to explore where [Dr. Shaw] goes next and what does she do when she gets there..." (http://screenrant.com/prometheus-sequel-damon-lindelof-ridley-scott-sandy-178928/ (http://screenrant.com/prometheus-sequel-damon-lindelof-ridley-scott-sandy-178928/)). And, sure, all of the films end with a big explosion, but as long as what happens up until that point isn't predictable, I'm good. If you were about to watch
The Departed for the first time and I told you it ended with a gunshot, would that give away or de-value the story? Nope.
Quote from: Narusz on Feb 27, 2013, 02:19:05 PM
It's not going to focus on Shaw, that's for sure. You can't make a movie with a single woman and an android's head. I mean, you can - when you're making a low-budget s-f like Moon, but not when you hire Ridley Scott and give him 100 million bucks to waste. It's gonna be mainstream and mainstream needs lots of dialogue and some cannon fodder. So I guess it'll be about searching for Shaw, and in the end they're gonna find her on the engineers' planet, then fight some monsters and explode the planet.
Really, this series is rather predictable about its endings:
Alien - big explosion
Aliens - big explosion
A:R - big explosion
AVP - big explosion
AVPR - big explosion
Prometheus - big explosion
Geee, I wonder what happens next.
this:
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=46781.msg1588092#msg1588092 (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=46781.msg1588092#msg1588092)
TheChazmoch: don't take the explosion part too seriously.:) I was joking about it, although you can't ignore the fact that there can't be an Alien movie without a big bang in the end.
Prometheuses can't have Shaw as the main character - she's in an alien craft and she can't just visit some colony on the way - it'd collide with other movies. Well, she could just meet some spaceship on the way and join the crew, but that'd be cheap.
Of course, they also could screw with the storyline some more and put whatever stupid thing they want into the script. I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
Again, the Engineers didn't just create us. There's bound to be other humanoids out there that share our DNA. Perhaps Shaw will find them when she goes to Paradise.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Feb 27, 2013, 02:53:41 PM
Again, the Engineers didn't just create us. There's bound to be other humanoids out there that share our DNA. Perhaps Shaw will find them when she goes to Paradise.
I like to think its just us, the Engineers, and the Aliens, in the film universe.
The existence of any other humanoid beings should be kept a mystery.
I would have said the same before Prometheus, but now that they went ahead and turned the Space Jockey into what is essentially a proto-human, they might as well just take the idea and run with it. Ridley already said that the planet at the beginning of Prometheus wasn't necessarially Earth, so there's bound to be other species like us hidden away in other corners of the universe.
Oh Christ, Prometheus was set-up for the Star Trek universe. :laugh:
LV-426: The Final Frontier
And to think we all thought Burke was a bad guy when he sent those colonists to explore...
Quote from: Narusz on Feb 27, 2013, 02:46:31 PM
TheChazmoch: don't take the explosion part too seriously.:) I was joking about it, although you can't ignore the fact that there can't be an Alien movie without a big bang in the end.
Prometheuses can't have Shaw as the main character - she's in an alien craft and she can't just visit some colony on the way - it'd collide with other movies. Well, she could just meet some spaceship on the way and join the crew, but that'd be cheap.
True, but, as we all know, nuking the site from orbit is the only way to be sure=P
There are easily ways it could work. According to the film's website, The Weyland Corporation has already began the terraformation process of various planets, and given the limited supplies he and Shaw leave LV-223 with, it stands to reason that David's first course of action would be to hunt for supplies. Perhaps they encounter a small colony or research outpost (space station) and David infiltrates in an attempt to scavenge for goodies. He could either commandeer a human craft from that location, or perhaps, he chooses to keep the Juggernaught because of it's advances in space travel tech, and for the purpose of blending in with the context of where he and Shaw intend to go.
True, at the end of
Prometheus David is only a head, but they do bring his body. I'd be willing to suspend a little disbelief to accept that David could talk Shaw through repairs.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Feb 27, 2013, 03:18:46 PM
LV-426: The Final Frontier
And to think we all thought Burke was a bad guy when he sent those colonists to explore...
He was just our misunderstood Christopher Columbus =P
Quote from: Narusz on Feb 27, 2013, 02:19:05 PM
It's not going to focus on Shaw, that's for sure. You can't make a movie with a single woman and an android's head. I mean, you can - when you're making a low-budget s-f like Moon, but not when you hire Ridley Scott and give him 100 million bucks to waste. It's gonna be mainstream and mainstream needs lots of dialogue and some cannon fodder. So I guess it'll be about searching for Shaw, and in the end they're gonna find her on the engineers' planet, then fight some monsters and explode the planet.
Really, this series is rather predictable about its endings:
Alien - big explosion
Aliens - big explosion
A:R - big explosion
AVP - big explosion
AVPR - big explosion
Prometheus - big explosion
Geee, I wonder what happens next.
What about making one third of w movie about wanted fugitive whose only companion at one point becomes a severed head to which he talks to, ranting and venting? It lasts like that for one fourth or third of the movie. That's right, it's Sam Peckinpah's classic, Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia from 1974.
Quote from: TheChazmoch on Feb 27, 2013, 03:19:02 PM
True, at the end of Prometheus David is only a head, but they do bring his body. I'd be willing to suspend a little disbelief to accept that David could talk Shaw through repairs.
So you're basically saying that Shaw is not only an archeologist, a pathologist (she lead the examination of the head), a geneticist (she studied the cells), a chemist ("we affected the atmosphere!"), a theologist, but now also a technician?:)
It's a shame they only have a handful of idiots to pick from when selecting a writer. :-\ I wonder what the film would be like if they could find writers who were talented, observant, and creative!
Remember when we used to have people who could write things well? What happened there? :laugh:
Quote from: RagingDragon on Feb 27, 2013, 04:23:55 PM
Remember when we used to have people who could write things well? What happened there? :laugh:
It's still going on. ;)
All I ask is that they get a good writer that understands the themes brought up in the universe from each movie that's had a positive impact and that they know what makes for good sci-fi... and tension.
I really want this to work out.
Quote from: Space Sweeper on Feb 27, 2013, 05:02:11 PM
All I ask is that they get a good writer that understands the themes brought up in the universe from each movie that's had a positive impact and that they know what makes for good sci-fi... and tension.
I really want this to work out.
Yup, agreed. I hope this moves forward, and more importantly, I hope it learns from and fixes the mistakes of the first one while expanding upon the foundation that has been laid forth.
Quote from: Narusz on Feb 27, 2013, 04:13:01 PM
Quote from: TheChazmoch on Feb 27, 2013, 03:19:02 PM
True, at the end of Prometheus David is only a head, but they do bring his body. I'd be willing to suspend a little disbelief to accept that David could talk Shaw through repairs.
So you're basically saying that Shaw is not only an archeologist, a pathologist (she lead the examination of the head), a geneticist (she studied the cells), a chemist ("we affected the atmosphere!"), a theologist, but now also a technician?:)
A fair bet that David is already repaired in order to pilot the Juggernaut I'd have thought. I assumed the date of departure pretty much confirms that Shaw fixed David, they loaded the supplies from the life pod and set off, rather than an immediate scoot from on wrecked Juggernaut to the next operative one.
wonder when Prometheus 2 will come out? seemsto be RSs next film (before Blade 2)
if they working on it now maybe aiming for summer 2015? (Episode VII prob wont be out till 2016)
Quote from: Narusz on Feb 27, 2013, 04:13:01 PM
Quote from: TheChazmoch on Feb 27, 2013, 03:19:02 PM
True, at the end of Prometheus David is only a head, but they do bring his body. I'd be willing to suspend a little disbelief to accept that David could talk Shaw through repairs.
So you're basically saying that Shaw is not only an archeologist, a pathologist (she lead the examination of the head), a geneticist (she studied the cells), a chemist ("we affected the atmosphere!"), a theologist, but now also a technician?:)
She stayed at a Holiday Inn? =P
eh. she doesnt need to have much technician expertise.. she just needs to do whatever david tells her to do.
this tube connects to this one that connects to that one...
Yup. Ripley and Parker were able to 'fix' Ash up a little bit in Alien as well. Granted, that's further down the line when robots are more commonplace, but over here Shaw has David functioning enough to explain to her what to do. I'd be able to buy it if they say she fixed him.
Quote from: Blacklabel on Feb 27, 2013, 05:59:59 PM
eh. she doesnt need to have much technician expertise.. she just needs to do whatever david tells her to do.
this tube connects to this one that connects to that one...
That's the way I see it. I'm not a mechanic by any means, but I've repaired my own car's engine before. It can be learned.
Hope the sequel is much more in line of what everyone wanted the first to be. Hopefully a much more personal film, character wise, on a much larger scale (if that makes any sense).
Quote from: Valaquen on Feb 27, 2013, 12:53:53 PM
Spaihts' script demonstrated that he didn't really know the Alien universe very well, and his Aliens were weaker than those in A:CM. I'd rather they get someone proven.
what were the continuity problems? His deacon killed most of the soldiers aboard the prometheus... just by using stealth and brute force... against heavily armed opponents. The Alien that popped out of Watts is killed by pure luck but even he took out an armed opponent beforehand... Weaker than A:CM?
and there's the scene where the Deacon....
QuoteJanek gets the pistol. Flips it in his hand. Fires over his
shoulder. Two, three rounds...
The bullets punch easily into the Alien - but the soft flesh
closes easily over the wounds, sealing its white skin. Its
teeth tighten.
f**k yo pistols, pretty much. :laugh:
the ultramorph and the "teenage aliens" are the one's that dont put too much of a fight if i remember well... but those fights came down more to sheer luck than by them being "weak".
the lack of acid damage to the ship was my main peeve with his script.. but at least Fifield's acid blood killed Vickers.. very painfully.
And there's a section where Janek says that:
QuoteWe're a modular ship. Self-contained
life-support and power in every
section. I say put the ship in orbit.
Vent every compartment to space. Sit
in vacuum at twenty degrees Kelvin for
a week. Kill anything.
With that, i dont think that localised acid damage would be as much of a problem to the Prometheus as it was to the Nostromo. They can presumably still make it home with a few holes through the ship.
It was just a few drafts away from being a proper shooting script. There was nothing in there that was absurdly terrible and it would've been a better, much more tense ride than the film we got.
Bring him back, i say.
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Feb 27, 2013, 02:40:35 PM
Great to hear she's up for returning. :)
Quote from: Elicas on Feb 27, 2013, 11:31:14 AM
I'm still waiting for a decent Alien prequel.
Oh, you must've missed it. Came out last year!
Yeah, still the only film where I've ever walked out of the cinema before the end credits rolled. What a load of shite.
Quote from: Blacklabel on Feb 27, 2013, 08:01:47 AM
Fingers crossed. Here's hoping Jon Spaihts is the writer on board :)
Eww why? Spaihts original draft was HORRENDOUS
Quote from: Elicas on Feb 27, 2013, 06:41:56 PM
Yeah, still the only film where I've ever walked out of the cinema before the end credits rolled. What a load of shite.
Did you see the AVP films at the cinema?
or Alien Resurrection? :laugh:
Quote from: Alien³ on Feb 27, 2013, 06:50:20 PM
Quote from: Elicas on Feb 27, 2013, 06:41:56 PM
Yeah, still the only film where I've ever walked out of the cinema before the end credits rolled. What a load of shite.
Did you see the AVP films at the cinema?
Alien³...I realize this will not be a surprise, coming from me.
However, if my personality was prone to instability and property violence, I would have charged into the projection booth, and taken a baseball bat to the projector. I would have put to shame the infamous copier scene from "Office Space". Luckily, I am not that sort of person, and at no time was any equipment harmed during the particular screening of Prometheus I attended.
Nevetheless, when I did get home, I kicked my cat through a window.
.
.
.
.
.
Just kidding, I have never owned a cat.
Over a movie? ::)
Relax, you'll live longer.
Quote from: Alien³ on Feb 27, 2013, 07:07:09 PM
Over a movie? ::)
Relax, you'll live longer.
It's all good. The intensive psychological therapy that I have received after seeing "Prometheus" has helped a great deal. For example, I no longer feel like nailing my head to a table every time I read or watch an interview with Damon Lindelof. Instead, I just kick my cat.
.... wait, scratch that. ;) :P
I hope it gets made unlike the sequel to Predators.
Quote from: Elicas on Feb 27, 2013, 11:31:14 AM
Quote from: szkoki on Feb 27, 2013, 11:29:19 AM
poor Noomi still hoping for a decent sequel
I'm still waiting for a decent Alien prequel.
Goddamn it Ridley.
This.
Quote from: Hellspawn28 on Feb 27, 2013, 07:17:17 PM
I hope it gets made unlike the sequel to Predators.
Rodriguez got himself lost in the sequels to Machete and Sin City... he's following the gigs that give him more $$$... i doubt we'll see a sequel to Predators any time soon... unless he just gives the reins to another producer.
Quote from: Alien³ on Feb 27, 2013, 06:50:20 PM
Quote from: Elicas on Feb 27, 2013, 06:41:56 PM
Yeah, still the only film where I've ever walked out of the cinema before the end credits rolled. What a load of shite.
Did you see the AVP films at the cinema?
I don't particularly like Predators, so no.
http://www.movies.com/movie-news/noomi-rapace-says-conflicting-things-about-39prometheus-239/11396 (http://www.movies.com/movie-news/noomi-rapace-says-conflicting-things-about-39prometheus-239/11396)
QuoteTodd Gilchrist @mtgilchrist
Noomi Rapace told me today the script for PROMETHEUS 2 is "incredible." My fingers are crossed.
Eh. She's just hyping up the press... without much hability. :laugh:
But if she's had meetings with Ridley then it's definitely just early days of pre-production.
Quote from: Daz85 on Feb 27, 2013, 08:17:48 PM
http://www.movies.com/movie-news/noomi-rapace-says-conflicting-things-about-39prometheus-239/11396 (http://www.movies.com/movie-news/noomi-rapace-says-conflicting-things-about-39prometheus-239/11396)
QuoteTodd Gilchrist @mtgilchrist
Noomi Rapace told me today the script for PROMETHEUS 2 is "incredible." My fingers are crossed.
Didn't she say the same thing about Prometheus' script?
So there is a script...?
I'm excited that rumours and news is now being thrown about. Hopefully some solid stuff will be announced over the next few months.
Awesome. At this stage I'm assuming the script isn't complete and is in more of an outline form, but great news nonetheless!
I just want to see more ALIENS up in this madafaka.
Carlos Huante Deacon, specifically.
also.. his Ultramorph.
and Giger better be back to design the entire Engineer planet, damnit. (And his Sphinx Alien better show up!) X)
Quote from: Blacklabel on Feb 27, 2013, 09:40:43 PM
Carlos Huante Deacon, specifically.
Yup.
Quote from: Blacklabel on Feb 27, 2013, 09:40:43 PM
and Giger better be back to design the entire Engineer planet, damnit.
Hell yes! Please oh please let Paradise be covered in Giger's landscapes and biomechanical terrors.
I can honestly say that I'm not excited at all. Feeling pretty indifferent.
As a matter of fact I'm not excited about anything concerning these franchises anymore. And the scary thing is that I don't really care what happens next. It's a lost cause. Watered down and milked dry.
The good thing though is that I still have my Alien and Alien 3, and Aliens as well, and that's more than enough. Whatever happens next I don't give a flying f**k about.
So yeah, go for it Shaw and David! Explore baby Jesus on planet X and make sure to take lots of pictures while you're at it!
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Feb 27, 2013, 09:51:02 PM
As a matter of fact I'm not excited about anything concerning these franchises anymore. And the scary thing is that I don't really care what happens next. It's a lost case. Watered down and milked dry.
That's how I felt after AVP. Then Predators & (especially) Prometheus came along and my excitement was restored. Falling in love with the two franchises again, but for completely different reasons than before.
Quote from: Blacklabel on Feb 27, 2013, 09:40:43 PM
I just want to see more ALIENS up in this madafaka.
Carlos Huante Deacon, specifically.
also.. his Ultramorph.
and Giger better be back to design the entire Engineer planet, damnit. (And his Sphinx Alien better show up!) X)
HELL. YEAH.
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Feb 27, 2013, 09:51:02 PM
So yeah, go for it Shaw and David! Explore baby Jesus on planet X and make sure take lots of pictures while you're at it!
Don't forget to post 'em to Facebook, too. Gotta make it official ya know. :laugh:
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Feb 27, 2013, 09:51:02 PM
I can honestly say that I'm not excited at all. Feeling pretty indifferent.
As a matter of fact I'm not excited about anything concerning these franchises anymore. And the scary thing is that I don't really care what happens next. It's a lost case. Watered down and milked dry.
The good thing though is that I still have my Alien and Alien 3, and Aliens as well, and that's more than enough. Whatever happens next I don't give a flying f**k about.
So yeah, go for it Shaw and David! Explore baby Jesus on planet X and make sure take lots of pictures while you're at it!
Exactly @SpreadEagleBeagle!
FOX knows this is how most ALIEN fans feel right now. Remember all that BS about 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' on the 'What is 10.11.12' website that mysteriously vanished? Yeah - nobody gives a f**k.
30 years of expectation went into the hype for Prometheus box office returns. FOX will be lucky to get a fraction of that for P2.
Quote from: 180924609 on Feb 27, 2013, 10:27:29 PM
FOX will be lucky to get a fraction of that for P2.
They'll probably double it, what with the amount of attention Prometheus got, good or bad.
I tend to agree -- even haters WILL go to see it at the cinema AND some will buy the blu-ray.
All of this in absolute coherence of course.
Quote from: Alien³ on Feb 27, 2013, 10:30:15 PM
Quote from: 180924609 on Feb 27, 2013, 10:27:29 PM
FOX will be lucky to get a fraction of that for P2.
They'll probably double it, what with the amount of attention Prometheus got, good or bad.
Yeap. And for what it's worth, most people I know that came out of the movie thinking "what the f**k" (in relation to the questions that had arisen) actually liked it. That's a buzz generator.
Quote from: Deuterium on Feb 27, 2013, 07:12:44 PM
Quote from: Alien³ on Feb 27, 2013, 07:07:09 PM
Over a movie? ::)
Relax, you'll live longer.
It's all good. The intensive psychological therapy that I have received after seeing "Prometheus" has helped a great deal.
You lucky bugger. They didn't have intensive psychological therapy in 1986. The scars have never healed.
They're going to have to do a lot more, marketing-wise, to secure the same reception the last one got. Even the casual film reviewers I was hearing on radio stations seemed hugely disappointed over how generic it seemed to them.
Honestly, I'd feel more optimistic about this if I had any indication that RS has at least been taking on board some of the legitimate criticism of 'Prometheus', but the only quote I've heard from him about reaction to it was in regards to it selling a lot of tickets and saying, "Well, thank f**k for that."
I'm fearing we're going to be in for a more-of-the-same approach, which makes me feel a lot more indifferent to this project than I was about 'Prometheus' in its early stages.
The one bonus I absolutely will be looking forward to are more unintentionally amusing rambling interviews on video. :)
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Feb 27, 2013, 11:25:22 PM
The one bonus I absolutely will be looking forward to are more unintentionally amusing rambling interviews on video. :)
And I will be looking forward to your parodies. :laugh:
>:D
With every director it's always the same. Their first few movies are good, then success which brings them cocaine and hookers turns them into big budget whore directors, who then go on to only make dumbed-down generic trash so they can continue their coke and hooker binge.
Quote from: DontRelaxJustYetMarines on Feb 28, 2013, 12:36:35 AM
With every director it's always the same. Their first few movies are good, then success which brings them cocaine and hookers turns them into big budget whore directors, who then go on to only make dumbed-down generic trash so they can continue their coke and hooker binge.
Like?
Quote from: DontRelaxJustYetMarines on Feb 28, 2013, 12:36:35 AM
With every director it's always the same. Their first few movies are good, then success which brings them cocaine and hookers turns them into big budget whore directors, who then go on to only make dumbed-down generic trash so they can continue their coke and hooker binge.
Ridley Scott should give himself a part in Prometheus 2. It should begin just like Alien3 and end with Ridley Scott hanging out in paradise with some Engineers where they all do coke and bang hookers.
Spreadeaglebeagle put everything into better words than I could about how I feel about Prometheus 2.
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Feb 27, 2013, 09:51:02 PM
I can honestly say that I'm not excited at all. Feeling pretty indifferent.
As a matter of fact I'm not excited about anything concerning these franchises anymore. And the scary thing is that I don't really care what happens next. It's a lost cause. Watered down and milked dry.
The good thing though is that I still have my Alien and Alien 3, and Aliens as well, and that's more than enough. Whatever happens next I don't give a flying f**k about.
So yeah, go for it Shaw and David! Explore baby Jesus on planet X and make sure to take lots of pictures while you're at it!
I feel pretty much the same. Bleh.
Bleh +1.
That said though, I am looking forward to being on here prying it apart with y'all, so let's hope they do make it.
Not really Bleh at all. Just gonna try my hardest to avoid the trailers this time.
In my opinion the problem with Prometheus (and its sequel) is that it's Ridley Scott's movie. Alien wasn't his. It was Hill's, Carroll's and Giler's movie - not even O'Bannon's. Those three took his script (which really wasn't very good) and polished it, gave it the character. That's basically what they say in bonus features, but I agree - I've read O'Bannon's version and final version and they're miles apart. Hill, Carroll and Giler might be soulless, cynical, money-grabbing Hollywood leeches, but they sure knew how to write a good story.
And so, Scott didn't intervene with the script while making Alien. He took what he was given, no questions asked, and just visualized it. He's a great visual artist, but when he wants to tell his own story, we get Prometheus. Scott needs a good producer to tell him what works in terms of story and what doesn't.
One way or another, let's just hope that we don't get another self-proclaimed OMFGIAMWRITINGANALIENPREQUELSOf**kYOU 'fan' writing it.
I'm not sure it's possible that they can make a sequel we'll all embrace. I would imagine that Prometheus 2 will move further away from Alien than Prometheus did. I do like the fan polarising nature of Prometheus - Scott wouldn't be doing his job if he turned out a movie that was universally acclaimed to be just "ok". Polarisation at least means he's stirring the genre up. I'd rather it be loved and loathed than just unequivocally mundane.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Feb 28, 2013, 07:38:59 AMI'm not sure it's possible that they can make a sequel we'll all embrace. I would imagine that Prometheus 2 will move further away from Alien than Prometheus did.
Moving the story further away from
Alien and making a good
Alien movie are not mutually exclusive ideas. By no means should they pander to the fans - and taking this new branch further away from
Alien is a good thing - but for crying out loud just
respect the god-damned source material.
I strongly believe that a decent new story could correct all of the faffery that was
Prometheus and actually resolve most if not all of the fans questions in a clever and exciting way; no xenos required.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Feb 28, 2013, 09:42:53 AM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Feb 28, 2013, 07:38:59 AMI'm not sure it's possible that they can make a sequel we'll all embrace. I would imagine that Prometheus 2 will move further away from Alien than Prometheus did.
Moving the story further away from Alien and making a good Alien movie are not mutually exclusive ideas. By no means should they pander to the fans - and taking this new branch further away from Alien is a good thing - but for crying out loud just respect the god-damned source material.
I strongly believe that a decent new story could correct all of the faffery that was Prometheus and actually resolve most if not all of the fans questions in a clever and exciting way; no xenos required.
Of course they are not mutually exclusive... but if I had to sum up
Alien in a few words I'd describe it as a scary film with exceptional design and cinematography.
Prometheus, although highly competent in its design and cinematography, was not a scary movie at all ( IMHO) - and I say that as someone who liked it. I think if it had been truly scary/shocking, then many of the criticisms on these boards would have not arisen or would have soon dissipated. First and foremost I'm looking for an Alien movie to scare me. I don't think any sequel will be playing it for scares... well not in the sense
Alien did.
If it had been truly scary/shocking, that means less butts on seats, which won't make back the 100 mil budget. So they make it lukewarm, so nobody has to get out of their comfort zone.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Feb 28, 2013, 10:25:00 AMI think if it had been truly scary/shocking, then many of the criticisms on these boards would have not arisen or would have soon dissipated.
Possibly, but scary or not, if
Prometheus had been less dismissive of the original film (and its sequels) it would of been far less contentious among the fans and IMO a far better movie for it. A lot (if not all) of the fan anger derives from Scott and his prequels conviction that what was established in
Alien (and its sequels) is moot, or somehow less interesting or entertaining than what
Prometheus offers.
I think he is dead wrong on that.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Feb 28, 2013, 12:00:50 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Feb 28, 2013, 10:25:00 AMI think if it had been truly scary/shocking, then many of the criticisms on these boards would have not arisen or would have soon dissipated.
Possibly, but scary or not, if Prometheus had been less dismissive of the original film (and its sequels) it would of been far less contentious among the fans and IMO a far better movie for it. A lot (if not all) of the fan anger derives from Scott and his prequels conviction that what was established in Alien (and its sequels) is moot, or somehow less interesting or entertaining than what Prometheus offers.
I think he is dead wrong on that.
"Dismissive" in that he didn't really want to do another movie with xeno's and eggs etc. you mean?
Quote from: Darth Vile on Feb 28, 2013, 12:12:49 PM"Dismissive" in that he didn't really want to do another movie with xeno's and eggs etc. you mean?
Not at all. He
did make a movie with 'xenos' and 'eggs', they were just unintelligible versions of what was already an iconic idea, an idea he thought was overdone.
EDIT: Untalics.
Prometheus certainly felt like an Alien movie. Haven't felt that since Alien 3.
That's something I can agree with for sure. Prometheus had the right atmosphere. Nice atmosphere, and nice visuals. Ridley Scott never fails those two aspects in his movies.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Feb 28, 2013, 12:59:09 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Feb 28, 2013, 12:12:49 PM"Dismissive" in that he didn't really want to do another movie with xeno's and eggs etc. you mean?
Not at all. He did make a movie with 'xenos' and 'eggs', they were just unintelligible versions of what was already an iconic idea, an idea he thought was overdone.
EDIT: Untalics.
Yep but that's just being pedantic though. There's a world of differnce between devolving the xeno and or showing its origins (wether it works or not) and just doing another movie with xenos with acid for blood leaping about in dark corridors. Surely you don't have to like
Prometheus to at least appreciate that they were trying to do something different with the format?
Quote from: OpenMaw on Feb 28, 2013, 03:17:25 PM
That's something I can agree with for sure. Prometheus had the right atmosphere. Nice atmosphere, and nice visuals. Ridley Scott never fails those two aspects in his movies.
Had the right kind of set design (would have been nice to return to guts-and-bones biomechanics of the Engineer interiors, instead of just mechanics, though), but something was missing from the atmosphere, IMO. It says a lot that the original Space Jockey scene is on for a fraction of the time that '
Prometheus' keeps going to the (non-pyramid-shaped) pyramid, but is infinitely more memorable. You kind of just trudge along with the characters through the tunnels of the new one. With the old one, it
feels like some kind of desecrated 'tomb of the dark gods' or whatever.
That whole here-be-dragons thing gets conveyed when I watch the original. It doesn't when I watch the new one. Feels like an attempt to imitate, rather than invoke/expand upon.
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Feb 28, 2013, 05:12:18 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Feb 28, 2013, 03:17:25 PM
That's something I can agree with for sure. Prometheus had the right atmosphere. Nice atmosphere, and nice visuals. Ridley Scott never fails those two aspects in his movies.
Had the right kind of set design (would have been nice to return to guts-and-bones biomechanics of the Engineer interiors, instead of just mechanics, though), but something was missing from the atmosphere, IMO. It says a lot that the original Space Jockey scene is on for a fraction of the time that 'Prometheus' keeps going to the (non-pyramid-shaped) pyramid, but is infinitely more memorable. You kind of just trudge along with the characters through the tunnels of the new one. With the old one, it feels like some kind of desecrated 'tomb of the dark gods' or whatever.
That whole here-be-dragons thing gets conveyed when I watch the original. It doesn't when I watch the new one. Feels like an attempt to imitate, rather than invoke/expand upon.
There's a minimalism in those scenes from Alien that really help that entire sequence linger long after. Prometheus is much more drawn out and I personally think we spend too much time in those same interiors... It's also worth noting that what we were seeing in Alien was entirely new... Prometheus is obviously re-treading old ground...
Too much humor in Prometheus - almost as bad as A:R, which is one of the biggest reasons I'm not that fond of A:R.
Nothing matches the crappy, senseless, humor of A:R, not even Prometheus.
People are dying... we need guns!
Quote from: OpenMaw on Feb 28, 2013, 06:40:12 PM
People are dying... we need guns!
My god... I'd forgotten.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-5uGy42dt9qo%2FT29PYoPe3dI%2FAAAAAAAABVc%2F30jCJN45W54%2Fs1600%2FJurassic%2BPark%2BIII%2B%2525282001%252529-%2B2.jpg&hash=f0eb590e647105af7e5e0952b3c425396e4f7edc)
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Feb 28, 2013, 05:12:18 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Feb 28, 2013, 03:17:25 PM
That's something I can agree with for sure. Prometheus had the right atmosphere. Nice atmosphere, and nice visuals. Ridley Scott never fails those two aspects in his movies.
Had the right kind of set design (would have been nice to return to guts-and-bones biomechanics of the Engineer interiors, instead of just mechanics, though), but something was missing from the atmosphere, IMO. It says a lot that the original Space Jockey scene is on for a fraction of the time that 'Prometheus' keeps going to the (non-pyramid-shaped) pyramid, but is infinitely more memorable. You kind of just trudge along with the characters through the tunnels of the new one. With the old one, it feels like some kind of desecrated 'tomb of the dark gods' or whatever.
That whole here-be-dragons thing gets conveyed when I watch the original. It doesn't when I watch the new one. Feels like an attempt to imitate, rather than invoke/expand upon.
I'm well with you there. I hated how modern and boring they made the Jockey stuff. I miss the "guts and bones". It was truly Alien.
Quote from: tmjhur on Feb 28, 2013, 07:26:48 PM
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Feb 28, 2013, 05:12:18 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Feb 28, 2013, 03:17:25 PM
That's something I can agree with for sure. Prometheus had the right atmosphere. Nice atmosphere, and nice visuals. Ridley Scott never fails those two aspects in his movies.
Had the right kind of set design (would have been nice to return to guts-and-bones biomechanics of the Engineer interiors, instead of just mechanics, though), but something was missing from the atmosphere, IMO. It says a lot that the original Space Jockey scene is on for a fraction of the time that 'Prometheus' keeps going to the (non-pyramid-shaped) pyramid, but is infinitely more memorable. You kind of just trudge along with the characters through the tunnels of the new one. With the old one, it feels like some kind of desecrated 'tomb of the dark gods' or whatever.
That whole here-be-dragons thing gets conveyed when I watch the original. It doesn't when I watch the new one. Feels like an attempt to imitate, rather than invoke/expand upon.
I'm well with you there. I hated how modern and boring they made the Jockey stuff. I miss the "guts and bones". It was truly Alien.
I can't agree with you more. I couldn't stand it. I'm also upset with the trilobite and deacon designs. They're just so blah.
And don't get me started on the engineers.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Feb 28, 2013, 04:34:52 PMSurely you don't have to like Prometheus to at least appreciate that they were trying to do something different with the format?
Of course not, and I do appreciate it, I just think that they failed and ended up making a watered down version rather than something original. Like I said earlier, I am all for new directions. Hell, if Scott is writing let's hope that it is as far away from
Alien as possible. He needs to get out of this universe, stat! :P
OK, MY THOUGHTS ON THE SEQUELi'll use spoiler tags because its so obvious it maybe trueSpoiler
not the whole story but at least a segment of it...what do we know so far about the engineers and what Shaw and other possible characters may know regarding the black box Prometheus?
Characters know that Engineers used a military base to make bio weapons and one of their ship was meant to head to Earth.
We know this and that Engineers seeded life on a planet ( on Earth maybe aswell- this is Shaw's theory too).
And in the end of the story Prometheus what do we think about them? "They made us and they tried to kill us."
Good build up to a possible twist Sir Scott if u reasonable! How about always mr friggin negative thinking humanity?!
Yeah we saw that one of them or possible a few of them tried to kill us! What if the twist and the plot are the following....
- Shaw is heading to Paradise
- military rescue team finds the wreckege of Prometheus and its black box, get information about a possible threat for Earth, gets the same info about the Engineer's homeland as Shaw, possible new character as an USMC soldier, maybe a little war with the xeno from the end of the first movie just to prove the threat even more
- its war time, the USMC is heading to Paradise
- Shaw meets the Engineers, few adventures, answers blabla finds out that some outlaw Engineers planned to destroy Earth on that base for some reason but the good ones stopped them by causing that outbrake 2000 years ago
- the good engineers is about to win the battle over the bad ones as only a few of them lives now and few of them owns juggernauts and bio weapons
- USMC arrives and destroys everything even the good one's planet
- we are in big shit as one of the bad Engineer escaping from the war and heads towards to Earth with a juggernaut packed with their newest ultimate weapon, with the xeno eggs - possible connection with the (first?) xeno (ever?) we saw in the end of Prometheus
- Shaw manages to get on board and crashes that ship on lv-426 - some battle with xenos - some whatever it needs to be to finish Shaw's saga
- the end, its connected to Alien
sure it can be expanded regarding the characters and scenes and etc. but in short i think this can be a possible and good sequel to Prometheus and prequel to Alien
have nice day :)
Quote from: DontRelaxJustYetMarines on Feb 28, 2013, 10:57:53 AM
If it had been truly scary/shocking, that means less butts on seats, which won't make back the 100 mil budget. So they make it lukewarm, so nobody has to get out of their comfort zone.
But that's thinking like an exec, rather than a fan of film. People would embrace a truly scary film rather than a teen gore flick (which is where horror has gone over the last decade). You'll never create a buzz around a film (beyond it's pre release hype) if you keep towing the line.
If I have one criticism of Prometheus it's that anticipation had made me believe that it would be quite a difficult and unnerving movie to watch - and Ridley was quoted as saying he aimed to scare the shit out of us and lot's had been kept away from the trailers, but ultimately the suspense was played down and everything had been revealed. It wasn't a horror film and after the event you can re-evaluate it as such but at the time I felt it needed more visceral terror. I still think it handles it's violence and graphic scenes more convincingly than any of the Alien sequels - (bar 3 perhaps) but it could of benefitted from less compromise.
It's possible than stuff was shot that was kept back from the trailers, and maybe it was excised to keep aspects of the story ambiguous until a sequel explores it, in that case Prom 2 might well be more of a horror film, especially given the anticipation and post release reaction to Prometheus.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Feb 28, 2013, 09:29:38 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Feb 28, 2013, 04:34:52 PMSurely you don't have to like Prometheus to at least appreciate that they were trying to do something different with the format?
Of course not, and I do appreciate it, I just think that they failed and ended up making a watered down version rather than something original. Like I said earlier, I am all for new directions. Hell, if Scott is writing let's hope that it is as far away from Alien as possible. He needs to get out of this universe, stat! :P
I actually thought it was quite an original take on a conventional sci-fi premise (much like Alien was). If there was any "watering down", it was in terms of its tone and violence - so yes I'd agree with that (if that's what you mean). I'm firmly of the opinion that if it split Alien fandom then it did its job. Of course it would be utopia if everyone liked/loved it, but I'd much rather a film that polarised the fans rather than universal apathy.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Feb 28, 2013, 05:26:20 PM
There's a minimalism in those scenes from Alien that really help that entire sequence linger long after. Prometheus is much more drawn out and I personally think we spend too much time in those same interiors... It's also worth noting that what we were seeing in Alien was entirely new... Prometheus is obviously re-treading old ground...
I don't think it's to do with time. Nor about how fresh it was - I can still get the same kind of emotional sensation and level of engagement when I watch the original, no matter how many times I've seen it.
The sequel just doesn't have the same feeling of something forbidden and ominous.
If a film had universal praise and people were bleating on endlessly about how brilliant it was, I'd get very bored with hearing about it. At least there's plenty to debate. Some criticisms are valid and some are ridiculous. Prometheus has it's flaws but ultimately I enjoyed it and and it was my favourite film of 2012. Only two other films impressed, neither of them sci-fi.
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 01, 2013, 12:10:41 AM
The sequel just doesn't have the same feeling of something forbidden and ominous.
I got those feelings as soon as I saw this shot...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi706.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww69%2FNoeland1%2Fprometheus123.jpg&hash=629bfec13af835f18db0a04ba31d837be16c53c7)
I thought, holy shit, that's Giger's dome, this is ominous.
Somebody mention a film that's truly scared them in the last 5 years though. I know I can't think of one and certainly not within the genre. I don't think not being scary was one of the films flaws.
I really liked Prometheus, my only criticism are similar to Gash. I thought it would have a few more twists, turns and "aha!" moments but ultimately it all kind of rolled along rather smoothly. The questions it produced really never lead anywhere and as of now if a sequel was never made, I think prometheus would do just fine as a stand alone film.
I welcome a sequel though that's more in the direction of Empire Strikes Back - a true open ender as opposed to another "lets see if this gets popular and we can make a sequel"
It's almost like they never went full ball on Prometheus even though it was supposedly their main hit movie for the summer. It felt like they were holding back on it.
If a sequel is never made then I pray for a directors cut...wait, I still think we should have a directors cut.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Feb 28, 2013, 10:41:12 PMI'm firmly of the opinion that if it split Alien fandom then it did its job.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I don't see why being divisive should be considered a good thing, and it didn't just split the fans, it split the general audience as well. To my mind, setting out to deliberately make a divisive film is a cynical move, not a clever one, and I guess that is what I meant by 'watered down', and why Scott should pack his bags.
If Scott goes, I'd be a lot less interested in Prometheus 2. The quality of visuals and direction is very important as is the handling of the more graphic moments and those were the stand out strengths of Prometheus. I'm sure criticisms will have been noted and given that I'd hate to see another director throwing all the visual effects to the fore and churning out a generic sequel. If the Engineers are Ridley's vision then he needs to validate them with the uncivilised behaviour he mentioned. At the moment their degree of ambiguity doesn't scupper how alien they are, but another director might well just make them into Doctor Manhattan rather than the living embodiment of a living renaissance sculpture.
I'm sticking with Ridley because I think only he can justify the back story of the Jockey now that the Engineers have been established.
Quote from: Highland on Mar 01, 2013, 12:32:18 AM
Somebody mention a film that's truly scared them in the last 5 years though. I know I can't think of one and certainly not within the genre. I don't think not being scary was one of the films flaws.
Are we going to have some arbitrary limitation on this like "mainstream Hollywood" ? Because I can think of a few.
Paranormal Activity gave a lot of people I know a good scare.
The slenderman Mytho's by and large has scared the crap out of a bunch of people. Including myself, it left me a little sleep deprived after a marathon run. Shadows became something I didn't much care for.
The early encounters with the Weeping Angels in Doctor Who were pretty scary.
Bah! Slender Man! Hijacking meme! Never ceases to amaze me how it's managed to become it's own mini-culture, when it's an invention based on different, real encounters of other things!
In regards to the fear factor of the original 'Alien' films, I've said before that I showed the first two to a friend who had never seen them, but was extremely desensitised to horror films, by virtue of having watched just about every one of them under the sun. Was in readiness for 'Prometheus', as it happened.
He not only jumped at all the right parts (yelped when Dallas was abducted), but became an instant fan and bought his own copies. :)
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 01, 2013, 02:30:21 AM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Feb 28, 2013, 10:41:12 PMI'm firmly of the opinion that if it split Alien fandom then it did its job.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I don't see why being divisive should be considered a good thing, and it didn't just split the fans, it split the general audience as well. To my mind, setting out to deliberately make a divisive film is a cynical move, not a clever one, and I guess that is what I meant by 'watered down', and why Scott should pack his bags.
It's not about setting out to make a divisive film, it's about going back to a franchise that's been around for circa 30 years and shaking it up. If you shake it up, some won't like the result. I wanted to see a film that played with the format and took risks with the iconography. Prometheus did that. As I said, for me it could have been much more scary/shocking, but I really appreciated what they were trying to do with it. That of course doesn't mean you have to like the results....
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 01, 2013, 12:10:41 AM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Feb 28, 2013, 05:26:20 PM
There's a minimalism in those scenes from Alien that really help that entire sequence linger long after. Prometheus is much more drawn out and I personally think we spend too much time in those same interiors... It's also worth noting that what we were seeing in Alien was entirely new... Prometheus is obviously re-treading old ground...
I don't think it's to do with time. Nor about how fresh it was - I can still get the same kind of emotional sensation and level of engagement when I watch the original, no matter how many times I've seen it.
The sequel just doesn't have the same feeling of something forbidden and ominous.
But that's partly because you have an emotional conection to the film.
Alien is still a very atmospheric film, and the jump scenes (particularly the egg hatcher) still work well because they have good technical application - however my kids wouldnt be scared by
Alien in the least. They have the same view of
Alien as I did to Hammer horror films when I was a kid i.e they think it's passé and slightly boring. Saying that - yes I'd agree... The derelict section of
Alien is still very effective in terms of creating an ominous tone, something I think Prometheus does well, but not nearly as effectively as the original (primarily because of the change in tone).
Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 01, 2013, 07:12:47 AMIt's not about setting out to make a divisive film, it's about going back to a franchise that's been around for circa 30 years and shaking it up.
The impression that I get from all of the talking heads on the BR was that it
was their intention to make an ambiguous 'could be but probably isn't, you decide, we don't know' prequel to Alien. That is the core of Lindelof's self-proclaimed 'brand' (which I personally loath) and Scott was all for it. IMO this discussion we all continue having
was the goal, and while it works from a marketing perspective, and is ingenuous in its own way, it is ultimately cynical and dishonest.
My thoughts on it at least. I would like to see the sequel buckle up the silliness and shoe-horn
Prometheus back into the
Alien universe, rather than the other way around.
Quote from: Gash on Mar 01, 2013, 03:32:04 AMI'm sticking with Ridley because I think only he can justify the back story of the Jockey now that the Engineers have been established.
His decisions on
Prometheus cause me to doubt it, but let's hope so.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 01, 2013, 08:39:57 AM
My thoughts on it at least.
We're just morons, I guess.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 01, 2013, 08:39:57 AM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 01, 2013, 07:12:47 AMIt's not about setting out to make a divisive film, it's about going back to a franchise that's been around for circa 30 years and shaking it up.
The impression that I get from all of the talking heads on the BR was that it was their intention to make an ambiguous 'could be but probably isn't, you decide, we don't know' prequel to Alien. That is the core of Lindelof's self-proclaimed 'brand' (which I personally loath) and Scott was all for it. IMO this discussion we all continue having was the goal, and while it works from a marketing perspective, and is ingenuous in its own way, it is ultimately cynical and dishonest.
My thoughts on it at least. I would like to see the sequel buckle up the silliness and shoe-horn Prometheus back into the Alien universe, rather than the other way around.
Quote from: Gash on Mar 01, 2013, 03:32:04 AMI'm sticking with Ridley because I think only he can justify the back story of the Jockey now that the Engineers have been established.
His decisions on Prometheus cause me to doubt it, but let's hope so.
There's nothing wrong with ambiguity or unresolved questions in a sci-fi movie... seemed to work for 2001 ASO and Bladerunner (to name a couple). I'd agree that the ambiguity is somewhat contrived... but "cynical and dishonest"? It's only a film for Frank's sake - these aren't politicians, bankers or organised religious leaders... ;)
I'd like to see another
Prometheus movie going in more or less the same direction as the first, but I think the xenos are best left to a straight out Alien/xeno film. That way the demarkation is clear for us fans... :)
Exactly!
The alien series needed a sister film to take us in new directions. Refresh the universe in a way, Prometheus has done that. 2 should be very interesting.
I still believe that the hardest thing for people to wrap their heads around was that Prometheus was a science-fiction movie and not a horror/action-suspense movie. This was the reason I was so let down by Prometheus at first. I was expecting an aliens style of movie. However Prometheus decided to go towards 2001 instead. This movie is much darker however, keeping in tradition with alien movies.
It would have been phenomenal if Giler and Hill would write it. They co-wrote and embelished the first, came up with a premise for second, and wrote the third.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 01, 2013, 12:12:30 PMIt's only a film for Frank's sake - these aren't politicians, bankers or organised religious leaders...
Come on, Scott is a businessman - his words - and movies are big business. You know this.
Maybe we
will see Scott in Parliament one day, he certainly has a knack for the empty promise. ;)
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 01, 2013, 10:10:44 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 01, 2013, 12:12:30 PMIt's only a film for Frank's sake - these aren't politicians, bankers or organised religious leaders...
Come on, Scott is a businessman - his words - and movies are big business. You know this.
Just like any other popular filmmaker... It's a commercial venture. That doesn't make them morally bankrupt.
Best thing so far is that Lindelof isnt involved.
I wish Frank Darabont wasnt working on the Godzilla script to lend a hand here... :P
Who else would be really good for it?
Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 01, 2013, 10:29:14 PMJust like any other popular filmmaker... It's a commercial venture. That doesn't make them morally bankrupt.
Of course not, that would be a silly claim, which is why I didn't make it. You said yourself that the ambiguity was a bit contrived, which I agree with, however while you think that is fine, I think it is a dick move. No harm no foul.
Quote from: Blacklabel on Mar 01, 2013, 10:41:27 PM
Best thing so far is that Lindelof isnt involved.
Remember how much of fandom (and some journalists doing interviews) was saying that '
Requiem' would
have to be an improvement because Anderson wasn't involved?
Yeah...
Don't blame the hubris of Strauss on the lack of Anderson. It was a good lacking, while it lasted. We are in the honeymoon period of no Lindelof, so please don't spoil it with divorce statistics.
Quote from: szkoki on Feb 28, 2013, 09:50:37 PM
OK, MY THOUGHTS ON THE SEQUEL
i'll use spoiler tags because its so obvious it maybe true
Spoiler
not the whole story but at least a segment of it...what do we know so far about the engineers and what Shaw and other possible characters may know regarding the black box Prometheus?
Characters know that Engineers used a military base to make bio weapons and one of their ship was meant to head to Earth.
We know this and that Engineers seeded life on a planet ( on Earth maybe aswell- this is Shaw's theory too).
And in the end of the story Prometheus what do we think about them? "They made us and they tried to kill us."
Good build up to a possible twist Sir Scott if u reasonable! How about always mr friggin negative thinking humanity?!
Yeah we saw that one of them or possible a few of them tried to kill us! What if the twist and the plot are the following....
- Shaw is heading to Paradise
- military rescue team finds the wreckege of Prometheus and its black box, get information about a possible threat for Earth, gets the same info about the Engineer's homeland as Shaw, possible new character as an USMC soldier, maybe a little war with the xeno from the end of the first movie just to prove the threat even more
- its war time, the USMC is heading to Paradise
- Shaw meets the Engineers, few adventures, answers blabla finds out that some outlaw Engineers planned to destroy Earth on that base for some reason but the good ones stopped them by causing that outbrake 2000 years ago
- the good engineers is about to win the battle over the bad ones as only a few of them lives now and few of them owns juggernauts and bio weapons
- USMC arrives and destroys everything even the good one's planet
- we are in big shit as one of the bad Engineer escaping from the war and heads towards to Earth with a juggernaut packed with their newest ultimate weapon, with the xeno eggs - possible connection with the (first?) xeno (ever?) we saw in the end of Prometheus
- Shaw manages to get on board and crashes that ship on lv-426 - some battle with xenos - some whatever it needs to be to finish Shaw's saga
- the end, its connected to Alien
sure it can be expanded regarding the characters and scenes and etc. but in short i think this can be a possible and good sequel to Prometheus and prequel to Alien
have nice day :)
no one? :D umm whatever
Shaw's ship crashing on LV-426 is stupid. The derelict has been on LV-426 long before the events in Prometheus.
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 02, 2013, 01:16:10 PM
Shaw's ship crashing on LV-426 is stupid. The derelict has been on LV-426 long before the events in Prometheus.
who said that? oh i got it... an air ship - truck driver, thats legit
Everyone says that it's millions of years old.
everyone said that the Earth is flat... there were no scientific test performed on that corpse so we cant be sure how old it is
So for you, the derelict could have crashed the day before the events of Alien happened?
You just need to look at the thing and see that it's been there a long time.
Unless it has been hit by a FOSSILIZING RAY.
OMG that totally works. Phoning Sir Scott right now.
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 02, 2013, 01:39:55 PM
So for you, the derelict could have crashed the day before the events of Alien happened?
You just need to look at the thing and see that it's been there a long time.
yeah a 30 yrs earlier could work
Read...
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Derelict_Ship (http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Derelict_Ship)
Quote"The Derelict is believed to have crashed on Acheron several millennia prior to the arrival of the Nostromo."
Although it says "believed" it's agreed that its been there waaaaay before Prometheus.
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 02, 2013, 04:45:03 PM
Read...
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Derelict_Ship (http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Derelict_Ship)
Quote"The Derelict is believed to have crashed on Acheron several millennia prior to the arrival of the Nostromo."
Although it says "believed" everyone says it's been there waaaaay before Prometheus.
Quote"In Prometheus, the biomechanical details on the walls and ground [of the derelict] are much finer, better defined, because this environment is meant to be in almost mint condition. There is no sign of decay, of rust, nor of translucent slime as in Alien, because time yet hasn't had its effect."
~ Prosthetics supervisor, Conor O'Sullivan
Quote"In Prometheus, the biomechanical details on the walls and ground [of the derelict] are much finer, better defined, because this environment is meant to be in almost mint condition. There is no sign of decay, of rust, nor of translucent slime as in Alien, because time yet hasn't had its effect."
~ Prosthetics supervisor, Conor O'Sullivan
The Derelict was in Prometheus? ::)
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 02, 2013, 04:51:43 PM
Quote"In Prometheus, the biomechanical details on the walls and ground [of the derelict] are much finer, better defined, because this environment is meant to be in almost mint condition. There is no sign of decay, of rust, nor of translucent slime as in Alien, because time yet hasn't had its effect."
~ Prosthetics supervisor, Conor O'Sullivan
The Derelict was in Prometheus? ::)
Only handing you a quote to support your argument, ffs.
I'm know. :-\ thank you.
Just makin' a joke is all. :(
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 02, 2013, 05:14:39 PM
I'm know. :-\ thank you.
Just makin' a joke is all. :(
We don't make jokes about the derelict. It's serious business. Now you will have to die.
Spoiler
Just kidding. AH-HAW AH-HAW AH-HAW!
For some reason I get the feeling that this project is going to end up in development Hell for a few years. I don't know why. It just feels like Prometheus was their one real shot to get everyone really excited for this series again, and instead it's left people kinda as a collective mixed bag. Some loved it, some hated it, a lot are just kinda... "Eh. It looked nice, and stuff."
Quote from: OpenMaw on Mar 02, 2013, 05:35:53 PM
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 02, 2013, 05:14:39 PM
I'm know. :-\ thank you.
Just makin' a joke is all. :(
We don't make jokes about the derelict. It's serious business. Now you will have to die.
Spoiler
Just kidding. AH-HAW AH-HAW AH-HAW!
For some reason I get the feeling that this project is going to end up in development Hell for a few years. I don't know why. It just feels like Prometheus was their one real shot to get everyone really excited for this series again, and instead it's left people kinda as a collective mixed bag. Some loved it, some hated it, a lot are just kinda... "Eh. It looked nice, and stuff."
I think things are pretty much in motion... in that the studio want it, Scott wants to make it and the actors want to be on board. As with a lot of these things it's now done to logistics and getting a script signed off.
That being said talk of the film is still going many many months after it's release. And the Alien series is not something Fox are likely to leave in development hell for too long, especially considering it still has the capability to make $400m+ world wide. I think the problem is going to be Ridley Scott himself to be honest. He's a little flip flop on what he wants to do next and he's hardly a spring chicken. Also Fassbender's schedule is rather full at the moment. Fingers crossed that it happens though.
Quote from: Gazz on Mar 02, 2013, 06:10:08 PM
And the Alien series is not something Fox are likely to leave in development hell for too long
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.shopify.com%2Fs%2Ffiles%2F1%2F0032%2F7882%2Fproducts%2Flol_alien_medium.png&hash=feedb1403d5392dd45eb9d66e626b9bdf6e1fb56)
It's been in development hell since A:R. ;)
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 02, 2013, 07:47:27 PM
Quote from: Gazz on Mar 02, 2013, 06:10:08 PM
And the Alien series is not something Fox are likely to leave in development hell for too long
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0032/7882/products/lol_alien_medium.png
7 Alien related films in little over 3 decades means we have never waited too long for an Alien related film.
The AVP films don't really count. They're not Alien films. THey have those other guys with the glow-in-the-dark blood in there.
So we waited roughly 14 years for another Alien movie, and roughly 30+ years for Ridley to give it a second go.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Mar 02, 2013, 10:02:52 PM
The AVP films don't really count. They're not Alien films. THey have those other guys with the glow-in-the-dark blood in there.
They did when I was counting as they're relevant in the point I was making. AvP or not Fox rarely sit on the franchise, whether that means pairing it up with another popular series or going stand alone. You can add as many limitations to that list as you wish, but my point remains. Also worth note is that many Alien fans wanted AvP and many count them along with the Alien films.
Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 02, 2013, 04:49:19 PM
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 02, 2013, 04:45:03 PM
Read...
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Derelict_Ship (http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Derelict_Ship)
Quote"The Derelict is believed to have crashed on Acheron several millennia prior to the arrival of the Nostromo."
Although it says "believed" everyone says it's been there waaaaay before Prometheus.
Quote"In Prometheus, the biomechanical details on the walls and ground [of the derelict] are much finer, better defined, because this environment is meant to be in almost mint condition. There is no sign of decay, of rust, nor of translucent slime as in Alien, because time yet hasn't had its effect."
~ Prosthetics supervisor, Conor O'Sullivan
ehmmm wikipedia and supervisor...sorry it has to be the part of the story to be legit eg. if a geologist character says that its million years old with a carbonmeter taking a sample from the derelict not Dallas who pushes buttons on a spacetruck
Quote from: szkoki on Mar 03, 2013, 12:20:46 AMif a geologist character says that its million years old with a carbonmeter
I no longer trust geologists in this universe.
It doesn't matter who says it, it's exposition, eg. what the film makers are
telling you.
I don't care what people say, Lindelof is a talented writer. Be nice if he came back for the sequel, but was given time to do a few more drafts before filming started. That's the only thing I find off with Prometheus' script; all the pieces were there, they just needed some refining.
There's nothing to contradict the original derelict being thousands or millions of years old. If the Engineers have been ferrying weapons around for eons then they've evolved into smaller beings and they've moved on from using dangerous eggs to using slightly less risky urns. If you buy that the eggs are just eggs rather than infected crew as originally implied.
Quote from: Gash on Mar 03, 2013, 01:32:15 AMIf the Engineers have been ferrying weapons around for eons then they've evolved into smaller beings and they've moved on from using dangerous eggs to using slightly less risky urns.
So the original derelict was back when they were still carting actual xeno eggs around, rather than the reverse engineered xeno DNA in ampules. I like this idea. :)
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 03, 2013, 12:44:35 AM
I don't care what people say, Lindelof is a talented writer. Be nice if he came back for the sequel, but was given time to do a few more drafts before filming started. That's the only thing I find off with Prometheus' script; all the pieces were there, they just needed some refining.
Buh...but he likes
mysteryyyyyy :(
Spoiler
I agree. Prometheus' script was certainly not perfect, but with a little bit more refining I believe he could have written something excellent.
Yeah. It just felt about two or three drafts short of something truly masterful.
Quote from: szkoki on Mar 03, 2013, 12:20:46 AM
Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 02, 2013, 04:49:19 PM
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 02, 2013, 04:45:03 PM
Read...
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Derelict_Ship (http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Derelict_Ship)
Quote"The Derelict is believed to have crashed on Acheron several millennia prior to the arrival of the Nostromo."
Although it says "believed" everyone says it's been there waaaaay before Prometheus.
Quote"In Prometheus, the biomechanical details on the walls and ground [of the derelict] are much finer, better defined, because this environment is meant to be in almost mint condition. There is no sign of decay, of rust, nor of translucent slime as in Alien, because time yet hasn't had its effect."
~ Prosthetics supervisor, Conor O'Sullivan
ehmmm wikipedia and supervisor...sorry it has to be the part of the story to be legit eg. if a geologist character says that its million years old with a carbonmeter taking a sample from the derelict not Dallas who pushes buttons on a spacetruck
Just wow. Bless your cotton socks.
For Prometheus 2 I demand more bones,guts and translucent slime.
No more super clean post Minority Report aesthetics thanks.
Well, it depends on what the context is. If it's another top-of-the-line, brand new scientific flagship, then keep up the clean look.
If it's an old tug or freighter that's getting near its last legs, bring back the dungy aesthetic.
Might be need to have a couple of each kind, actually. Clean and dirt together.
We've seen an old tug, a military vessel, a medical ship, and a research ship,
I wanna see a rescue/emergency starship.
Aye, that'd be cool. Or some sorta private or luxury liner.
I want to see a new state of the art space station. :P
Would be cool if they got some actual science concepts back in there again. There are all manner of habitats that the engineers have looked at over the years for space and surface based outposts. Things like inflatable structures, space elevators, bio-domes. Even looking at old stations like Skylab for some inspiration would be great.
I demand slime, steam and grit.
The aesthetic was truly moving the way it was, then they went and gave it plastic surgery and ruined it's natural beauty.
Wait, are we talking about the human designs, or the Applied Science-trained Jockey designs?
Don't think we ever saw equivalent decks on the Prometheus, but even if we had they would likely not be venting steam and creaking and grinding the way the Nostromo did.
In regards to the derelict/juggernaut.. you can look at set photos and say they are too clean but in the film they don't look that dissimilar, they are instantly recognisable as the same thing, just not rotten and denuded, it's not an ancient derelict after all. I don't have a problem with that idea - it's a logical approach to showing the same ship in working order, and I really like the floor that the Jockey seat rises from being softened and fleshed out so that the same thing in ALIEN now looks stripped by centuries of decay, but I'd hope that if we see the Engineer world it would feature all manner of ancient elements that are Gigeresque.
The interiors do look very different. I wouldnt mind them to be clean, as it does make sense for a younger ship, or non decayed, but I do mind the redesign and simplification. Gone were the great, haunting, skeletal ribbed walls from Giger replaced with rather monotone design
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg99.imageshack.us%2Fimg99%2F8926%2Fpadam.jpg&hash=d99cb9d62081f04f6fa9bd7b5eb6e8e1e39a0699)
I think of it like this; they were from the same civilization, but different cultural periods, and designed by different engineers and architects. They've got the same basic looks and aesthetics, but the detailing is different.
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 04, 2013, 04:26:57 AM
I think of it like this; they were from the same civilization, but different cultural periods, and designed by different engineers and architects. They've got the same basic looks and aesthetics, but the detailing is different.
As I said, theres plenty of reasons why they would be different. But theres no reason for such decline in design. Did they really think the look on the left is better than the Giger design on the right?
I agree to some extent, but I don't think it was designed to look better rather than to be immediately reminiscent. Certainly the Giger designs are superior, more intricate and elaborate, but I assumed it was a deliberate attempt not only to make the Juggernaut look clean but to make it look like the derelict was a much more ancient vehicle, built (or grown) in a different way. Much as the urns are an advancement on the eggs.
I look at the Engineer tech to be a simpler cleaner aesthetic because that tends to be the way that tech changes, whilst I look at the aliens in Promethues as simpler or bigger because they haven't developed into the ultimate weapon due to their watered down (in plot terms) conception, and are therefore a deliberate deconstruction of Giger's alien.
It's either a legitimate reason for the simplification and smoothing of details or an excuse to give the designers a pass. A bit of both probably.
Quote from: StrangeShape on Mar 04, 2013, 04:28:30 AM
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 04, 2013, 04:26:57 AM
I think of it like this; they were from the same civilization, but different cultural periods, and designed by different engineers and architects. They've got the same basic looks and aesthetics, but the detailing is different.
As I said, theres plenty of reasons why they would be different. But theres no reason for such decline in design. Did they really think the look on the left is better than the Giger design on the right?
There is no "decline in design". Scott said he wanted to purposely move away from the bio-mech aesthetic of Alien to something a little more 'real world' industrial/technical. I personally don't think it's half as interesting, but it is an aesthetic choice of the filmmaker rather than the technical application of design.
Prometheus sequel idea:
A deep space salvage crew find the juggernaut floating through space and find a sleeping Shaw with David's head. After being taken back to the International Space station, Shaw is suffering from post traumatic stress and lives in a small room with David's head whom she treats like a ginger cat.
Weyland has built a colony on LV-223 and lost contact with the colonists; whom secretly were told by a Weyland official to investigate the black goo.
Shaw is given a chance of redemption to go back to LV-223 with a group of marines to investigate and they get ambushed and attacked by black goo infected zombies. Shaw and the remaining marines have to fight their way out of the colony.
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 02, 2013, 05:14:39 PM
I'm know. :-\ thank you.
Just makin' a joke is all. :(
Sorry dude, been a hellish week. Shouldn't have snapped.
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 04, 2013, 04:26:57 AM
I think of it like this; they were from the same civilization, but different cultural periods, and designed by different engineers and architects. They've got the same basic looks and aesthetics, but the detailing is different.
That's how I think about it too.
Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 04, 2013, 07:18:26 AM
Quote from: StrangeShape on Mar 04, 2013, 04:28:30 AM
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 04, 2013, 04:26:57 AM
I think of it like this; they were from the same civilization, but different cultural periods, and designed by different engineers and architects. They've got the same basic looks and aesthetics, but the detailing is different.
As I said, theres plenty of reasons why they would be different. But theres no reason for such decline in design. Did they really think the look on the left is better than the Giger design on the right?
I personally don't think it's half as interesting, but it is an aesthetic choice of the filmmaker rather than the technical application of design.
Hence a decline in the quality of the design.
Quote from: StrangeShape on Mar 04, 2013, 04:08:56 AM
The interiors do look very different. I wouldnt mind them to be clean, as it does make sense for a younger ship, or non decayed, but I do mind the redesign and simplification. Gone were the great, haunting, skeletal ribbed walls from Giger replaced with rather monotone design
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg99.imageshack.us%2Fimg99%2F8926%2Fpadam.jpg&hash=d99cb9d62081f04f6fa9bd7b5eb6e8e1e39a0699)
>:(
That's just f**king pathetic. f**k Prometheus. Honestly, how could anyone call the design on the left an improvement? If you can even call it a design. Looks like something a 2 year old could come up with.
CHANGE IS BAD AND ANYTHING THAT IS DIFFERENT IS BAAAD.
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 05, 2013, 02:41:25 AM
CHANGE IS BAD AND ANYTHING THAT IS DIFFERENT IS BAAAD.
But if one is bad, then being different is good.
But being different from that is bad.
Being different from being different is good, but being different from being different from being different is bad.
If you're good, I'm different, thus making me bad. But if I'm different from that, then I'm good and you're bad.
So if I'm not different, then I'm bad.
But everything that is different is bad, and I'm not everything.
So I am different from everything.
I'm bad, but I'm good.
The universe is mine.
Or not.
Change is only good if the change itself is worth a damn.
The change in Prometheus is to a certain extent like the changes to the alien creature design explored by ADI. Regardless of what "explanation" is applied to the concept, if you're taking out what makes it unique (Things like combining vacuum hose with bones and the organic/mechanic design elements) then it's not a good change.
But the changes to the Alien design by ADI were for no real purpose. Except for the changes in Res, which were to evoke that these Aliens were different from the ones seen before, since they were mutants. And that design change I was fine with, because it had a reason.
Same thing here. It's evoking that this structure isn't as ancient or degraded or infested as the Derelict was. And it worked perfectly. The change had a purpose. And it still looks damned unique. I can think of nothing similar to the aesthetics of the Juggernaut and the Temple in Prometheus except for, well, the Derelict.
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 05, 2013, 05:25:00 AMIt's evoking that this structure isn't as ancient or degraded or infested as the Derelict was.
It's stating that the aesthetic of the derelict is because of random degradation rather than it being built by bio-mechanical horrors from outer space. That's a pretty lame reconn IMO.
I know I know, deal with it, etc. :P
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 05, 2013, 06:05:55 AM
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 05, 2013, 05:25:00 AMIt's evoking that this structure isn't as ancient or degraded or infested as the Derelict was.
It's stating that the aesthetic of the derelict is because of random degradation rather than it being built by bio-mechanical horrors from outer space. That's a pretty lame reconn IMO.
I know I know, deal with it, etc. :P
Yeah, that's my beef with it. I don't care if the change can be explained. It takes away from the original by saying "That was just a dead/decayed/distorted version." Okay. But I liked that version
better.
Quote from: tmjhur on Mar 05, 2013, 02:02:06 AM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 04, 2013, 07:18:26 AM
Quote from: StrangeShape on Mar 04, 2013, 04:28:30 AM
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 04, 2013, 04:26:57 AM
I think of it like this; they were from the same civilization, but different cultural periods, and designed by different engineers and architects. They've got the same basic looks and aesthetics, but the detailing is different.
As I said, theres plenty of reasons why they would be different. But theres no reason for such decline in design. Did they really think the look on the left is better than the Giger design on the right?
I personally don't think it's half as interesting, but it is an aesthetic choice of the filmmaker rather than the technical application of design.
Hence a decline in the quality of the design.
I don't think deconstruction of a design can be regarded as a decline in quality per se - as that infers a lack of technical application. This is not about technical application but aesthetic choices. It's ostensibly the same design afterall i.e derelict and space jockey.
Yes and I think the aesthetic choice is inferior and creatively is a backwards step.
Remember though the derelict in Alien had been exposed to at least one beastie that burst from the original SJ and could have morphed the inside of the ship much like Hadley's Hope.
I don't really have a problem with the ship being slightly different. Perhaps the original derelict was a transporter or science lab where as the Prometheus ships were more geared towards military use.
Maybe you are right.
But I doubt it.
I think they just took their eye off the ball with most things in Prometheus.
Striving to do something new for yourself and be different creatively is not without it's merits, but when it leads to inferior design and creative back steps then it's simply best to stick with what worked originally.
Yes, as most of us keep repeating, we accept that its different. We accept that it being different makes sense and have reasons. But what we're saying is that the new design is crap. Sorry to say that, but like someone else said, it looks like a 2 year old design
Old Deelict interior looked like a twisted mixture of bones, flesh and metal.
Juggermaut interior looks like a bunch of cardboard cutouts sprayed in some dark metallic tone.
One among the things that make the new take on all this so devastatingly uninteresting.
Different ships, different eras, (maybe) different race.
It's all good in my books.
Quote from: tmjhur on Mar 05, 2013, 02:01:06 PM
Yes and I think the aesthetic choice is inferior and creatively is a backwards step.
It's sorta supposed to be isn't it?
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 05, 2013, 06:40:06 PM
Different ships, different eras, (maybe) different race.
It's all good in my books.
I think that that is probably wishful thinking. I think it's all supposed to be same ship and being but they just made it shiny and boring.
Quote from: Gash on Mar 05, 2013, 09:07:48 PM
Quote from: tmjhur on Mar 05, 2013, 02:01:06 PM
I said: Yes and I think the aesthetic choice is inferior and creatively is a backwards step.
You said: It's sorta supposed to be isn't it?
Why would anybody in their right minds design a set that was nowhere near as interesting as it's predecessor?
I never found the alien affected hive areas in Aliens to be very reminiscent of Giger's structures. The chamber in Prometheus evokes it a lot more, not in set photos perhaps but in the film itself.
Nothing wrong with the design IMO. It looks great in the film.
Quote from: Gash on Mar 05, 2013, 10:47:28 PM
I never found the alien affected hive areas in Aliens to be very reminiscent of Giger's structures.
Really? Gigers nest resembles the texture of the Aliens hive
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jamescamerononline.com%2Fhive2ins.JPG&hash=990425bbc9d70ffb75d52b5823b314fc3ae74c67)
Not only that, but the hive itself is biomechanical, thats why aliens mesh so well in it. You can see tubes, grills, ribbing and hoses on the walls, as if theyre part of the alien's body
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi13.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa277%2Flovegunner%2FAVP%2Ftggh_zps75cf4aaf.jpg&hash=3511c301c4b22a3dd8a0d9e0b11512f49d6d79fa)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi13.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa277%2Flovegunner%2FAVP%2Fdormantaliens.png&hash=6af1e7491678ee244a2883aa44241a6563ea6b88)
Well, certainly more reminiscent than it seemed in 1986 before the Dallas cocoon scene came to light, however I'd maintain that the lighting, the organised structure and the scale of the juggernaut chamber instantly evokes ALIEN more effectively.
It might also suggest though that the alien secreted resin is what makes the derelict interior look the way it does, from the original Space Jockey burster. ??
Quote from: Gash on Mar 05, 2013, 11:52:21 PM
It might also suggest though that the alien secreted resin is what makes the derelict interior look the way it does, from the original Space Jockey burster. ??
Its possible. That would explain why the giant cave underneath it has the same style. Also, Gigers unused egg silo had also the same boned design as the walls of the derelict and walls of the cave. So very possible
Quote from: tmjhur on Mar 05, 2013, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 05, 2013, 06:40:06 PM
Different ships, different eras, (maybe) different race.
It's all good in my books.
I think that that is probably wishful thinking. I think it's all supposed to be same ship and being but they just made it shiny and boring.
So do you think this...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages4.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20120729100142%2Falienanthology%2Fimages%2F1%2F10%2FJuggernaut_Prometheus.jpg&hash=3bd76165ed25cbfb6b4f9c26764d49a769809f83)
...is this?
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages3.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20121121113243%2Favp%2Fimages%2F9%2F91%2FBluray150.PNG&hash=cffcaa1ae39b484ba7e0b1ca351144e76969090d)
:-\
Quote from: StrangeShape on Mar 05, 2013, 05:17:16 PM
Yes, as most of us keep repeating, we accept that its different. We accept that it being different makes sense and have reasons. But what we're saying is that the new design is crap. Sorry to say that, but like someone else said, it looks like a 2 year old design
Really? I'm sure there are plenty of two year olds who could have matched the quality of design on
Prometheus... ::)
There is nothing wrong with the design on
Prometheus other than it's not
Alien...
Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 06, 2013, 07:19:27 AM
There is nothing wrong with the design on Prometheus other than it's not Alien...
Which, subjectively speaking, is a bother to some of us. Ya know?
here is the alien mural that was cut form the alien movie.
http://defectiveyeti.com/images/alien_giger_big.jpg (http://defectiveyeti.com/images/alien_giger_big.jpg)
the murals shown in Prometheus might be showing the story of the engineers as they developed this product as the creature at the end of the movie does resemble the mural more than the alien we know.
this mural might play a part in the Prometheus sequel?
somehow she will end on up the ship we know from the alien movie. that arch creature in the mural might be in the movie. after the ship crashes it might be her who sets up the distress signal for the nostromo to pick up.
who knows.
Why keep looking for answers and theories about this movie?
Nobody with power of decision involved in this movie stopped for even 5 minutes into think about any continuity, logic, canon or any other relation with the old movies and the Alien universe. If anything is slightly similar or reminiscent of the other movies, is just by pure chance! I am actually amazed that they keeped the shape of the juggernaut so similar to the derelict!! That is one of the few things of the movie I can't complain about, together with David.
they changed the facehugger to a stupid calamary, the eggs now are urns (this change does not annoy me that much really), the Space Jokey changed to an ominous and gigantic creature to a gay culturist with personality disorders, humans changed from well constructed and perfectly defined characters to a bunch of irrational and dumb asholes, they just pissed on all the alien life cycle, they even changed the damm planet for no reason at all!
Really, nobody, specially Lindelof or Scott give a shit about the universe, actually, they think it was not good enough and that they could improve it. They thought they could improve one of the most rich, clever, scary and mysterious world ever created in cinema. And even more, they thought they could do it without GIVING ANY f**kING EXPLANATION ABOUT THIS NEW WORLD!!
"Gigger"? bah! i can do better!
"Alien creature, facehugger, eggs, the life cycle etc." So old....A:R and AVP movies destroyed it....THEN DONT DO ANOTHER f**kING ALIEN MOVIE, and if you do, don't pretend that any stupid idea you can come with will be better than what was done before. Bold say some...pretentious I say.
"Script and Plot" We don't need one. We have Lindelof.
I have seen prometheus like 10 times already. Really, I try and try to find something to like on it, I really try, but every time I despise it more and more.
And about the sequel. Im gonna follow every single update, news or rumor about it, and Im gona watch it at the first opportunity I have.
But im 99.9999999999999999999999% sure that i will hate it.
Quote from: Tough little S.O.B. on Mar 06, 2013, 08:34:47 AM
Why keep looking for answers and theories about this movie?
Nobody with power of decision involved in this movie stopped for even 5 minutes into think about any continuity, logic, canon or any other relation with the old movies and the Alien universe. If anything is slightly similar or reminiscent of the other movies, is just by pure chance!
Well why would they considering this is Prometheus and not Alien 1.
Nobody's looking for answers. Some people dig the new stuff, some don't.
I'm sure if you stuck a dick and a few pipes on the jars containing the black goo everyone would be frothing about how "Giger esk" it all was.
Quote from: Highland on Mar 06, 2013, 09:37:00 AMWell why would they considering this is Prometheus and not Alien 1.
The Engineers are the Space Jockeys. Same universe, same beings, completely different look. It grates, Giger or not.
Quote from: Highland on Mar 06, 2013, 09:37:00 AMI'm sure if you stuck a dick and a few pipes on the jars containing the black goo everyone would be frothing about how "Giger esk" it all was.
Speaking as one of them Giger fans that you are so blatantly pigeon-holing by this comment, I say f**k you. ;)
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 06, 2013, 10:46:44 AM
Quote from: Highland on Mar 06, 2013, 09:37:00 AMWell why would they considering this is Prometheus and not Alien 1.
The Engineers are the Space Jockeys. Same universe, same beings, completely different look. It grates, Giger or not.
So? It's clearly stated in the movie that the time periods are different by a fairly hefty amount. How is it any different from the humans at Hadley's Hope compared to the humans in the Auriga. Of course that's ignoring the fact that the Alien can just change his jacket when ever he likes with no explanation what so ever other than "it looks cool".
Double standards all over the shop. It hurts my head.
Quote from: Highland on Mar 06, 2013, 11:03:23 AMSo? It's clearly stated in the movie that the time periods are different by a fairly hefty amount.
Prometheus says precisely nothing about the amount of time between the derelict landing and the events on LV-223, but given whatever arbitrary time span you like, and the complete lack of story to the contrary, the derelict on LV-426 and the Juggernaut are ostensibly the
same type of ship built by the
same type of alien.
So why is the older one built out of bones and resinous slime and the newer one built out of steel struts and magic? A cultural shift in the Engineer race? A different, more alien branch of the species? A long defeated alien god-race?
Nope, degradation (or in other words, f**k
Alien we never watched it anyway).
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 06, 2013, 12:21:39 PM
Nope, degradation (or in other words, f**k Alien we never watched it anyway).
I disagree.
The designs were for all new things. For me personally, it was nice they weren't messing with the old designs. They're best left alone.
Quote from: Highland on Mar 05, 2013, 03:24:48 PM
Remember though the derelict in Alien had been exposed to at least one beastie that burst from the original SJ and could have morphed the inside of the ship much like Hadley's Hope.
this
i never thought the difference between the derelict in Alien and the Juggernaut in Prometheus was ever a fan issue due to the fact the derelict was probably overrun with gigantic xenos building their shit all over everything like in Aliens and that it will have all taken place thousands of years ago...
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 06, 2013, 12:44:40 PM
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 06, 2013, 12:21:39 PM
Nope, degradation (or in other words, f**k Alien we never watched it anyway).
I disagree.
The designs were for all new things. For me personally, it was nice they weren't messing with the old designs. They're best left alone.
Then why do the film-makers say the Juggernaut is a non-degraded derelict?
Quote"At first the Giger element was almost inexistent, because we really wanted architecture that looked as if it was Giger stuff but had been 'kidnapped', as if we had arrived many thousands of years before, and the Engineers place was clean, spotless."
~ David Levy, Prometheus concept artist, 2012.
And remember Conor O' Sulivan:
Quote"in Prometheus, the biomechanical details on the walls and ground [of the derelict] are much finer, better defined, because this environment is meant to be in almost mint condition. There is no sign of decay, of rust, nor of translucent slime as in Alien, because time yet hasn't had its effect."
And Arthur Max:
Quote"In Prometheus this [Engineer] technology is in perfect operating condition, while in Alien you could only see the ruins of it."
The derelict in Alien, they are saying, used to look like the interior of the Juggernaut.
Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 06, 2013, 01:04:57 PM
much finer, better defined,
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F735&hash=49aceb583ca9cf72e11f121123bd8362037e3a23)
holy shit
Quote from: Highland on Mar 06, 2013, 11:03:23 AM
Double standards all over the shop. It hurts my head.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdwallpapers.in%2Fwalls%2Fprometheus_to_alien_the_evolution-wide.jpg&hash=58ba5c7e59dc363f1951da9c6dc7aba2e415efa1)
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Mar 06, 2013, 01:09:40 PM
Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 06, 2013, 01:04:57 PM
much finer, better defined,
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freplygif.net%2Fi%2F735&hash=49aceb583ca9cf72e11f121123bd8362037e3a23)
holy shit
I know! :P
Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 06, 2013, 01:04:57 PM
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 06, 2013, 12:44:40 PM
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 06, 2013, 12:21:39 PM
Nope, degradation (or in other words, f**k Alien we never watched it anyway).
I disagree.
The designs were for all new things. For me personally, it was nice they weren't messing with the old designs. They're best left alone.
Then why do the film-makers say the Juggernaut is a non-degraded derelict?
Quote"At first the Giger element was almost inexistent, because we really wanted architecture that looked as if it was Giger stuff but had been 'kidnapped', as if we had arrived many thousands of years before, and the Engineers place was clean, spotless."
~ David Levy, Prometheus concept artist, 2012.
And remember Conor O' Sulivan:
Quote"in Prometheus, the biomechanical details on the walls and ground [of the derelict] are much finer, better defined, because this environment is meant to be in almost mint condition. There is no sign of decay, of rust, nor of translucent slime as in Alien, because time yet hasn't had its effect."
And Arthur Max:
Quote"In Prometheus this [Engineer] technology is in perfect operating condition, while in Alien you could only see the ruins of it."
The derelict in Alien, they are saying, used to look like the interior of the Juggernaut.
Yeah I agree with them. If you left the Juggernaut on LV-426 for millions of years it might look like the derelict. Obvious differences would still be, like the elephantine pilot looking different and the cryo-pods, but the texture of the surfaces would look degraded.
The Juggernaut doesn't look degraded because it's not as old as the Derelict.
No. The juggernaut simply doesn't look the same on the inside at all. Beyond repeating patterns, the patterns and the texture are very different. It has nothing to do with decay. It has to do with different design philosophies. The biomechanoid nature of the original craft was evident and apparent. It isn't in the Juggernaut, beyond the base idea that the Engineer interfaces with the craft.
I have no idea what's going on any more. :-\
Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 06, 2013, 07:19:27 AM
Quote from: StrangeShape on Mar 05, 2013, 05:17:16 PM
Yes, as most of us keep repeating, we accept that its different. We accept that it being different makes sense and have reasons. But what we're saying is that the new design is crap. Sorry to say that, but like someone else said, it looks like a 2 year old design
Really? I'm sure there are plenty of two year olds who could have matched the quality of design on Prometheus... ::)
There is nothing wrong with the design on Prometheus other than it's not Alien...
For the tenth time, I dont mind its not ALien, I dont mind making it different. What I keep saying is that if they wanted to make it different, why didnt they come up with creative and competetive design to what Giger had done? He created an interesting and intricate bony ribbed pattern with details. I dont thing a zig zag lines and square blocks are as good of a design or a good design at all
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg99.imageshack.us%2Fimg99%2F8926%2Fpadam.jpg&hash=d99cb9d62081f04f6fa9bd7b5eb6e8e1e39a0699)
Im not saying 2 year old can design Prometheus, its a well designed movie with great sets, Im saying a two year could surely come up with that pattern above for Juggernauts interior
Quote from: OpenMaw on Mar 06, 2013, 01:52:42 PM
No. The juggernaut simply doesn't look the same on the inside at all. Beyond repeating patterns, the patterns and the texture are very different. It has nothing to do with decay. It has to do with different design philosophies. The biomechanoid nature of the original craft was evident and apparent. It isn't in the Juggernaut, beyond the base idea that the Engineer interfaces with the craft.
This.
I think what we are all trying to say again and again is that Biomechanical Giger design is far far more interesting and creatively forward thinking than the generic blocks and zig zags that the current design team used.
As the above poster said, it's nothing to do with decay it's about design philosophies and I'm with H.R Giger on this one. The guy had to smoke opium for gods sake to keep that shit out of his head. It's better for that reason alone.
I saw more respect to Giger's previous work in Prometheus, than any other Alien movie since Aliens. It felt very Gigeresque, but I guess the 'esque' part plays a big part for most people.
I'll admit that the Prometheus interior was VERY well done and a great homage to Ron Cobb's style.
Giger, though? Cardboard whatever walls? Bizarre creature thing turned into a tapir suit? Nnnnnewp.
...But the Engineers are straight out of a Giger painting [sort of]! So was the viper pit in Resurrection -- and the detailing on the Dog Alien.
Quote from: StrangeShape on Mar 06, 2013, 05:14:24 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 06, 2013, 07:19:27 AM
Quote from: StrangeShape on Mar 05, 2013, 05:17:16 PM
Yes, as most of us keep repeating, we accept that its different. We accept that it being different makes sense and have reasons. But what we're saying is that the new design is crap. Sorry to say that, but like someone else said, it looks like a 2 year old design
Really? I'm sure there are plenty of two year olds who could have matched the quality of design on Prometheus... ::)
There is nothing wrong with the design on Prometheus other than it's not Alien...
For the tenth time, I dont mind its not ALien, I dont mind making it different. What I keep saying is that if they wanted to make it different, why didnt they come up with creative and competetive design to what Giger had done? He created an interesting and intricate bony ribbed pattern with details. I dont thing a zig zag lines and square blocks are as good of a design or a good design at all
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg99.imageshack.us%2Fimg99%2F8926%2Fpadam.jpg&hash=d99cb9d62081f04f6fa9bd7b5eb6e8e1e39a0699)
Im not saying 2 year old can design Prometheus, its a well designed movie with great sets, Im saying a two year could surely come up with that pattern above for Juggernauts interior
I'm not even sure what's been argued now... I don't think anyone is claiming that
Prometheus improved upon the designs of HR Giger. I don't think anyone is stating that the design in
Prometheus is as ground breaking or will be as influential as
Alien... Of course it won't. What I'm saying is that Scott purposely attempted to move away from the aesthetic in his original film. Retro fitting or not - his logic is sound as he wanted to move away from the look of Giger's xeno, which was so obviously related to the Space Jockey and the Derelict, to a more industrial and less esoteric aesthetic. I
don't prefer the less bio-mech look, but I
understand the choice that the filmmaker made and I
appreciate the move away from a design in order to be its own thing (I don't just want a carbon copy design of everything in the previous film). From an aesthetic POV I can see the juggernaut and derelict and say "aha - before and after the influence of the slime dribbling xeno".
I don't think there's anything I would describe as being cardboard looking as seen in the film. Probably a little bland when under a microscope and isolated to a small panel but I thought the production design worked wonders for the film. Ridley still has a great eye, just not for the same material he used to be into. It wasn't all Giger and that was certainly clear but there were definitely inspirations throughout.
Quote from: Gazz on Mar 06, 2013, 08:11:37 PM
I don't think there's anything I would describe as being cardboard looking as seen in the film. Probably a little bland when under a microscope and isolated to a small panel but I thought the production design worked wonders for the film. Ridley still has a great eye, just not for the same material he used to be into. It wasn't all Giger and that was certainly clear but there were definitely inspirations throughout.
Completely agree.
Amen.
What were people's thoughts on the Juggernaut exterior?
I have no complaints with it. I think it was haunting and cool to see it again.
The only thing I hated were the engine bursts they gave it. That ship did not need 'visible' engines.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Mar 06, 2013, 09:53:33 PM
I have no complaints with it. I think it was haunting and cool to see it again.
The only thing I hated were the engine bursts they gave it. That ship did not need 'visible' engines.
Yep - I'd agree with that one... Seemed a bit obvious given the uniqueness of the design.
I think they should get a bonafide sci-fi author to pen the script. I would like to see Greg Bear take a shot at it. Or, perhaps Peter Watts.
Another potential candidate would be Neal Asher...and he already incorporates a lot of horror into his novels.
Also, Ian Banks or Alistair Reynolds.
Given that the ship looks itself like a mechanism, or a biomechanism, the visible engine flare was disappointing. The whole ship could have twisted and morphed (horrible word - sounds like cheap CGI - but you get my drift) into something equally weird and spiraled into space. The juggernaut/derelict is unique and needs to be more interesting in movement than the Millennium Falcon.
Design-wise though it is great and the portals distinguish it again from being the same as the derelict.
Previously though I always thought of the derelict as being a one off, and that other craft would be different but with similar exterior detailing.
I love their similar designs, and I agree the thrusters are annoying. I thought it'd be haunting if it shot off the way it did, but silently and with no other signs of activity.
Something more akin to this visual and audio combo would have been great, imho.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg822.imageshack.us%2Fimg822%2F7175%2Fwebp95.jpg&hash=178c57ae9e693a34f5856bb191223bdb1551113b)
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10954836/DerelictRising.wav (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10954836/DerelictRising.wav)
Hope on the horizon.
Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 06, 2013, 01:04:57 PM
The derelict in Alien, they are saying, used to look like the interior of the Juggernaut.
Even going on that, who's to say the green goo that David touches that seems charged or the black goo itself can't morph the ship if left long enough? Or still, like I said before the ship was just changed by the products it was housing?
Ignoring all of that, I think if we saw the exact original Derelict in Prometheus it would take away from the massive time span and wonder that Scott is trying to portray in the first scenes of Alien.
......and we'd have people in here claiming the Derelict crashed 5 minutes before the events in Prometheus.
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Mar 06, 2013, 08:04:56 PM
...But the Engineers are straight out of a Giger painting [sort of]! So was the viper pit in Resurrection -- and the detailing on the Dog Alien.
Pretty sure the viper pit was what got Giger stating that his alien designs had degenerated into a sewer with a slimy turd at it's heart. He wasn't a fan.
No, he said that of the Aliens themselves (in the Alien Evolution doc IIRC -- said they were pretty good before).
Regarding the Viper Pit -- Clickity (http://alienexplorations.blogspot.co.uk/1997/09/the-vipers-nest.html).
Quote from: StrangeShape on Mar 06, 2013, 05:14:24 PM
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg99.imageshack.us%2Fimg99%2F8926%2Fpadam.jpg&hash=d99cb9d62081f04f6fa9bd7b5eb6e8e1e39a0699)
burrowing your images
if a creature did do some interior redecorating turning the Juggernaut interior into what we see in "alien" then you should be thankful that our movie monster inherently possesses giger art skills.
as your cocooned to the wall you'll have much to admire around you as you'll be surrounded by bones and slime arranged in a artistic manner.
The problem is that with the 'Ripley finds Dallas' deleted scene from Alien and the xeno cocoons/lair in Aliens, they establish that it's the xeno's who do the interior design work. So it does, and always did in my eyes, beg the question what did the derelict look like before the xeno's took hold?
Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 07, 2013, 12:46:11 PM
The problem is that with the 'Ripley finds Dallas' deleted scene from Alien and the xeno cocoons/lair in Aliens, they establish that it's the xeno's who do the interior design work. So it does, and always did in my eyes, beg the question what did the derelict look like before the xeno's took hold?
exactly - also bear in mind the xeno (or xenos) on the derelict will have been like 50 ft high or something and theyd have had plenty time on their hands to get it just as they like it
I'm pretty sure the alien that burst from the Space Jockey didn't linger around the ship for long. The burnt hole in the floor suggests it quickly went underneath the deck where the Space Jockey was discovered.
However, where Kane finds the eggs, well, who knows.
Quote from: mythology on Mar 07, 2013, 07:56:55 AM
Quote from: StrangeShape on Mar 06, 2013, 05:14:24 PM
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg99.imageshack.us%2Fimg99%2F8926%2Fpadam.jpg&hash=d99cb9d62081f04f6fa9bd7b5eb6e8e1e39a0699)
burrowing your images
if a creature did do some interior redecorating turning the Juggernaut interior into what we see in "alien" then you should be thankful that our movie monster inherently possesses giger art skills.
as your cocooned to the wall you'll have much to admire around you as you'll be surrounded by bones and slime arranged in a artistic manner.
Well it certainly did a good job of 'redesigning' the lower levels of the atmospheric processor.
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 07, 2013, 12:57:55 PM
I'm pretty sure the alien that burst from the Space Jockey didn't linger around the ship for long. The burnt hole in the floor suggests it quickly went underneath the deck where the Space Jockey was discovered.
However, where Kane finds the eggs, well, who knows.
thats interesting i never thought of that.
maybe the giant xeno was a queen that laid the eggs (not the eggs were cargo)
or maybe there were other Space Jockeys (or engineers) on board that were captured by the giant xeno and then made into the eggs (like the Alien xeno was doing with Dallas/Brett)
thinking about what happened to the derelict and the SJ is far more creepy and eerie and mysterious than if they show us - i hope they never put it on screen
Quote from: Space Sweeper on Mar 07, 2013, 01:37:32 PM
Well it certainly did a good job of 'redesigning' the lower levels of the atmospheric processor.
Granted, but the two are very different from one respect. The Alien Nest is much more chaotic. The structure has an asymetrical quality. Where as everything in the halls of the jockey ship are mirrored and repeating all around. It's obviously meant to be that it was fashioned that way on purpose, not the result of some... degradation or nesting practice by the Jocklien.
Quote from: bishoop on Mar 07, 2013, 03:02:31 PM
thinking about what happened to the derelict and the SJ is far more creepy and eerie and mysterious than if they show us - i hope they never put it on screen
Now that I agree with.
Quote from: Highland on Mar 07, 2013, 02:32:38 AMOr still, like I said before the ship was just changed by the products it was housing?
So the goo 'monsterfied' the entire interior of the spaceship? I can do some pretty wacky shit, but that's a stretch even for this movie. :P
Ultimately, the ships being different isn't a problem - it can be left an untold story - the problem is the lazy explanation for it. A well done sequel could cast off these silly comments from the designers and provide more information about the nature and history of the Engineers and therefore some more plausible explanations for the discrepancy.
Or, it could continue to tell us to go f**k ourselves.
At this point, the only explanation that makes any sense is that PROMETHEUS is simply a re-imagining of the ALIEN universe. Its a reboot - like Battlestar Galactica.
Its like watching a new Bond movie - it doesnt totally tie-in or make 100% sense with the previous incarnations.
There is no other way to reconcile the differences or lack of logic. No way in hell is PROMETHEUS directly connected to ALIEN (1979). No - f**king - way.
Unfortunately for us fans, Prometheus doesnt even make sense with itself!
But... there's nothing that contradicts anything, story-wise. Some shit looks a bit different.
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 07, 2013, 11:24:40 PMBut... there's nothing that contradicts anything, story-wise. Some shit looks a bit different.
True. I guess it depends on how integral the nature of the original ship and its pilot are to your own view of the story. I would argue that they are deeply integral to the original film - Scott didn't have Giger on location making bone sets or have his kids wearing tiny spacesuits because it was cheap or easy - he did those things to communicate certain aspects of the ship and the Jockey, things that he has retconned in his new film. The only argument is whether you are OK with that or not.
I'm not. Sucks for me. ;D
No, I agree, the aesthetic was a huge part of the original film. I just disagree that not having it look exactly the same completely negates Prometheus from the Alien canon, especially considering the Alien itself has never looked identical in any of the films.
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 07, 2013, 11:24:40 PM
But... there's nothing that contradicts anything, story-wise. Some shit looks a bit different.
Whats wrong with this picture?
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn549%2Fsmarty9000%2Fprometheus7%2FSpace-Joke_zps107e7ec4.png&hash=5b9ac3f331dc9f59f688f3c3c7750b47803ef283)
Which bits look different and why do they not matter?
Did you pay attention to the actual story of Prometheus?
I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here.
Not to mention... That picture combines both Prometheus and Alien elements... So, it's fan art.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Mar 08, 2013, 12:15:05 AM
Not to mention... That picture combines both Prometheus and Alien elements... So, it's fan art.
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 08, 2013, 12:10:58 AM
I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here.
Its an official retcon!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fget-reel.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F06%2FRidley-Scott-Cigar.jpg&hash=0e6855f9d511c712bf7928295db502ce4f231408)
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 08, 2013, 12:10:58 AM
I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here.
+1
Quote from: Gash on Mar 08, 2013, 01:03:02 AM
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 08, 2013, 12:10:58 AM
I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here.
+1
+2
Although I think he's trying to say they redesigned the Space Jockey making them Engineers? Even then its not really retconning because the differences make no difference. The derelict and Space Jockey exist as they are in the Prometheus universe because it's all in the same universe.
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 08, 2013, 01:50:49 AMThe derelict and Space Jockey exist as they are in the Prometheus universe because it's all in the same universe.
I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here.
This conversation is like trying to juggle buffalo, while hopping, after labor day.
Brings me back to Saigon.
Nothing makes sense between the previous world of Alien and Prometheus because nobody in this movie was interested in making it have any sense. I have the feeling that they just didn't give a damm about it.
I would love to hear Fincher's honest opinion about Prometheus. I mean, once he stops laughing of course....
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 07, 2013, 11:44:56 PM
, especially considering the Alien itself has never looked identical in any of the films.
Exactly what I said earlier also. It's because it's the "super sacred Space Jockey that made me wonder about the stars when I was a boy and I like tubes and pipes and stuff" syndrome.
I'm not sure what's hard to understand about something that's eons old looking different from something that's not.
My favourite part is that both come from the same guy..... :D
Quote from: Tough little S.O.B. on Mar 08, 2013, 05:41:02 AM
Nothing makes sense between the previous world of Alien and Prometheus because nobody in this movie was interested in making it have any sense. I have the feeling that they just didn't give a damm about it.
I would love to hear Fincher's honest opinion about Prometheus. I mean, once he stops laughing of course....
I don't have any problem equating Prometheus with ALIEN, and I think basically it is still essentially the story that Ridley has always wanted to tell - that of the bomber and it's bio weapon. I"d say people on it's creative side did give a damn because whilst it takes a completely different route to the sequels of ALIEN, it manages to craft a scenario which doesn't screw the other films, but shows that they are but one possible path.
And why should Fincher care? Laudible though aspects of his directing of Alien3 are, the story is one that diffuses pretty rapidly and he has to all intents and purposes disowned it. I doubt he cares much at all, though as a director I'd be surprised if he's laughing at Ridley Scott for returning to that universe and broadening it out from the dark corridor runaround that it was already straightjacketd by in 1992.
Quote from: Highland on Mar 08, 2013, 05:58:10 AM
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 07, 2013, 11:44:56 PM
, especially considering the Alien itself has never looked identical in any of the films.
Exactly what I said earlier also. It's because it's the "super sacred Space Jockey that made me wonder about the stars when I was a boy and I like tubes and pipes and stuff" syndrome.
I'm not sure what's hard to understand about something that's eons old looking different from something that's not.
My favourite part is that both come from the same guy..... :D
It's not about not understanding it. It's simply about not liking it.
Quote from: Highland on Mar 08, 2013, 05:58:10 AMI'm not sure what's hard to understand about something that's eons old looking different from something that's not.
Understanding requires that you have at least a small clue as to what is going on, which you don't. Unless you can tell me precisely how old the base (and Juggernaut) on LV-223 is then you've got zip to support your argument other than what you have been handed: 'degradation'.
QuoteMy favourite part is that both come from the same guy... :laugh:
Degradation is a bastard.
Well we know the facility on LV-223 is at least 2000 years old.
Not really eons then.
Exactly, so the difference between what we see of their race (in Alien to Prometheus) means nothing.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 07, 2013, 11:41:23 PM
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 07, 2013, 11:24:40 PMBut... there's nothing that contradicts anything, story-wise. Some shit looks a bit different.
True. I guess it depends on how integral the nature of the original ship and its pilot are to your own view of the story. I would argue that they are deeply integral to the original film - Scott didn't have Giger on location making bone sets or have his kids wearing tiny spacesuits because it was cheap or easy - he did those things to communicate certain aspects of the ship and the Jockey, things that he has retconned in his new film. The only argument is whether you are OK with that or not.
I'm not. Sucks for me. ;D
Exactly.
The Prometheus Space Jockey gets scaled down to an embarrassing piss-poor space suit(!) containing a tall-ish bald bloke. Oh, and his genome is identical to modern humans - whatever the f**k thats supposed to mean?
The 'Alien-Evolution' Blu-Ray cover sleeve tries embarrassingly hard to hide the fact that the Prometheus Space Jockey is a tiny tot joke of a pilot compared to the original ALIEN. Of course, the scale of the Engineer is critical to the 'DNA' story of Prometheus: 'its us, its everything!'. But the irony is that Ridley Scott went to great lengths to portray the Space Jockey as a gargantuan skeleton melded to a machine in order to emphasise its alien-ness.
Ridley Scott said that he wanted to answer the question about 'who is the big guy on the chair?'.
ALIEN fans still await that answer.
ALIEN: The Space Jockey
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-1NxFtUdQlfI%2FTlRgfIuqFhI%2FAAAAAAAABLc%2FZT_AMkRIpfY%2Fs1600%2Fspace-jockey1.jpg&hash=118100fd7f444106df61506c2e88923763bf0fc4)
PROMETHEUS: See that tiny pilot bloke sitting in the chair? - that's the Space Jockey that is!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heycomputer.com%2Fprometheus2.jpg&hash=ce37de07968e5c80e132ece9fa187e9881244712)
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 08, 2013, 09:24:06 AM
Quote from: Highland on Mar 08, 2013, 05:58:10 AMI'm not sure what's hard to understand about something that's eons old looking different from something that's not.
Understanding requires that you have at least a small clue as to what is going on, which you don't. Unless you can tell me precisely how old the base (and Juggernaut) on LV-223 is then you've got zip to support your argument other than what you have been handed: 'degradation'.
QuoteMy favourite part is that both come from the same guy... :laugh:
Degradation is a bastard.
and you have nothing to support yours....?
Occams razor and all that jazz.
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 08, 2013, 11:01:04 AM
Well we know the facility on LV-223 is at least 2000 years old.
Well no, it has to be at least 50,000 years old or at least as old as the oldest painting found (which I think was the Scottish one).
EDIT: A quick search shows the Isle of Sky painting at 35020BCE
Quote from: Highland on Mar 10, 2013, 02:29:54 AMand you have nothing to support yours....?
My argument is that without any evidence to the contrary they are the same type of ship and the same type of pilot, so discussions about their differences are relevant and (considering that this is a thread about the potential sequel) ripe for exploring. Your argument has been that while they are the same type of ship and the same type of pilot there is an immense amount of time separating them, so discussions about their differences can be easily explained away and are therefore irrelevant.
QuoteOccams razor and all that jazz.
When you've spotted the biggest assumption in this debate come drop another Occam's on me. ;D
Quote from: 180924609 on Mar 09, 2013, 11:09:19 PM
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 07, 2013, 11:41:23 PM
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 07, 2013, 11:24:40 PMBut... there's nothing that contradicts anything, story-wise. Some shit looks a bit different.
True. I guess it depends on how integral the nature of the original ship and its pilot are to your own view of the story. I would argue that they are deeply integral to the original film - Scott didn't have Giger on location making bone sets or have his kids wearing tiny spacesuits because it was cheap or easy - he did those things to communicate certain aspects of the ship and the Jockey, things that he has retconned in his new film. The only argument is whether you are OK with that or not.
I'm not. Sucks for me. ;D
Exactly.
The Prometheus Space Jockey gets scaled down to an embarrassing piss-poor space suit(!) containing a tall-ish bald bloke. Oh, and his genome is identical to modern humans - whatever the f**k thats supposed to mean?
The 'Alien-Evolution' Blu-Ray cover sleeve tries embarrassingly hard to hide the fact that the Prometheus Space Jockey is a tiny tot joke of a pilot compared to the original ALIEN. Of course, the scale of the Engineer is critical to the 'DNA' story of Prometheus: 'its us, its everything!'. But the irony is that Ridley Scott went to great lengths to portray the Space Jockey as a gargantuan skeleton melded to a machine in order to emphasise its alien-ness.
Ridley Scott said that he wanted to answer the question about 'who is the big guy on the chair?'.
ALIEN fans still await that answer.
ALIEN: The Space Jockey
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-1NxFtUdQlfI%2FTlRgfIuqFhI%2FAAAAAAAABLc%2FZT_AMkRIpfY%2Fs1600%2Fspace-jockey1.jpg&hash=118100fd7f444106df61506c2e88923763bf0fc4)
PROMETHEUS: See that tiny pilot bloke sitting in the chair? - that's the Space Jockey that is!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heycomputer.com%2Fprometheus2.jpg&hash=ce37de07968e5c80e132ece9fa187e9881244712)
LOL That's a f**king abomination. Worst retcon in the history of movies. And what is those lights at the end of its big telescope/phallus thing? Old age has seeped into Ridley Scott's brain. He's just not the same person anymore.
Quote from: DontRelaxJustYetMarines on Mar 10, 2013, 12:45:07 PM
Quote from: 180924609 on Mar 09, 2013, 11:09:19 PM
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 07, 2013, 11:41:23 PM
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 07, 2013, 11:24:40 PMBut... there's nothing that contradicts anything, story-wise. Some shit looks a bit different.
True. I guess it depends on how integral the nature of the original ship and its pilot are to your own view of the story. I would argue that they are deeply integral to the original film - Scott didn't have Giger on location making bone sets or have his kids wearing tiny spacesuits because it was cheap or easy - he did those things to communicate certain aspects of the ship and the Jockey, things that he has retconned in his new film. The only argument is whether you are OK with that or not.
I'm not. Sucks for me. ;D
Exactly.
The Prometheus Space Jockey gets scaled down to an embarrassing piss-poor space suit(!) containing a tall-ish bald bloke. Oh, and his genome is identical to modern humans - whatever the f**k thats supposed to mean?
The 'Alien-Evolution' Blu-Ray cover sleeve tries embarrassingly hard to hide the fact that the Prometheus Space Jockey is a tiny tot joke of a pilot compared to the original ALIEN. Of course, the scale of the Engineer is critical to the 'DNA' story of Prometheus: 'its us, its everything!'. But the irony is that Ridley Scott went to great lengths to portray the Space Jockey as a gargantuan skeleton melded to a machine in order to emphasise its alien-ness.
Ridley Scott said that he wanted to answer the question about 'who is the big guy on the chair?'.
ALIEN fans still await that answer.
ALIEN: The Space Jockey
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-1NxFtUdQlfI%2FTlRgfIuqFhI%2FAAAAAAAABLc%2FZT_AMkRIpfY%2Fs1600%2Fspace-jockey1.jpg&hash=118100fd7f444106df61506c2e88923763bf0fc4)
PROMETHEUS: See that tiny pilot bloke sitting in the chair? - that's the Space Jockey that is!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heycomputer.com%2Fprometheus2.jpg&hash=ce37de07968e5c80e132ece9fa187e9881244712)
And what is those lights at the end of its big telescope/phallus thing?
I thought they had always been there.
Quote from: DontRelaxJustYetMarines on Mar 10, 2013, 12:45:07 PM
LOL That's a f**king abomination. Worst retcon in the history of movies.
The Space Jockey wasn't retconned in Prometheus.
Quote from: Highland on Mar 10, 2013, 02:29:54 AM
Well no, it has to be at least 50,000 years old or at least as old as the oldest painting found (which I think was the Scottish one).
The painting yes, but that doesn't explain the age of the facility on LV-223. The only hint we get of that is the body of the Engineer that 2000 years old approx.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 10, 2013, 12:17:56 PM
Quote from: Highland on Mar 10, 2013, 02:29:54 AMand you have nothing to support yours....?
My argument is that without any evidence to the contrary they are the same type of ship and the same type of pilot, so discussions about their differences are relevant and (considering that this is a thread about the potential sequel) ripe for exploring. Your argument has been that while they are the same type of ship and the same type of pilot there is an immense amount of time separating them, so discussions about their differences can be easily explained away and are therefore irrelevant.
Well no, one ship housed eggs, one ship housed jars. It's a newer ship = it looks different?
Let's play devils advocate and both ships looked exactly they same. Are we to assume that the Jockey's f**ked up not once, but twice in the quest to wipe out humans? A bit far fetched even for sci fi mate....? :D
QuoteThe painting yes, but that doesn't explain the age of the facility on LV-223. The only hint we get of that is the body of the Engineer that 2000 years old approx.
Dude. Think about what your saying. What is portrayed in the cave paintings??? ???
The paintings are pointing at the facility. Or of course it might be just a fluke..... ??? :P
Quote from: Highland on Mar 10, 2013, 01:51:29 PM
QuoteThe painting yes, but that doesn't explain the age of the facility on LV-223. The only hint we get of that is the body of the Engineer that 2000 years old approx.
Dude. Think about what your saying. What is portrayed in the cave paintings??? ???
The paintings are pointing at the facility. Or of course it might be just a fluke..... ??? :P
The paintings depict them visiting us and pointing the planet system that contains LV-223 I understand. But they also depict the Engineers being
nice to us. Who's to say on LV-223 (at that point in history) the facility is even built? In that time anything could have been there. This is all pointless anyway.
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 10, 2013, 01:13:42 PM
Quote from: DontRelaxJustYetMarines on Mar 10, 2013, 12:45:07 PM
LOL That's a f**king abomination. Worst retcon in the history of movies.
The Space Jockey wasn't retconned in Prometheus.
That looks like a retcon to me. Visual proof. Unless you want to argue that their complex society allows for that.
Quote from: DontRelaxJustYetMarines on Mar 10, 2013, 02:09:44 PM
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 10, 2013, 01:13:42 PM
Quote from: DontRelaxJustYetMarines on Mar 10, 2013, 12:45:07 PM
LOL That's a f**king abomination. Worst retcon in the history of movies.
The Space Jockey wasn't retconned in Prometheus.
That looks like a retcon to me. Visual proof. Unless you want to argue that their complex society allows for that.
Nope, I'll say this...
How do you know that the Space Jockey (seen in Alien) isn't the creator of the Engineers, who based their ships and technology on their creator? The only way the Space Jockey will ever be retconned is if Alien is remade and they change the design of the Space Jockey to look like the Engineer. I don't see that happening.
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 10, 2013, 02:25:29 PM
The only way the Space Jockey will ever be retconned is if Alien is remade and they change the design of the Space Jockey to look like the Engineer. I don't see that happening.
I agree with you. Another way could be if the derelict and Jockey on LV-426 from Alien is shown in a Prometheus sequel and is changed to look like the LV-223 ones.
Quote from: irn on Mar 10, 2013, 02:59:53 PM
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 10, 2013, 02:25:29 PM
The only way the Space Jockey will ever be retconned is if Alien is remade and they change the design of the Space Jockey to look like the Engineer. I don't see that happening.
I agree with you. Another way could be if the derelict and Jockey on LV-426 from Alien is shown in a Prometheus sequel and is changed to look like the LV-223 ones.
Exactly, which is why I don't understand this whole
"ZOMFG Prometheus has ruined the Space Jockey!" business. The Space Jockey is still a mystery, and hopefully, always will be.
Dallas says "alien lifeform"; he doesn't say "hm, this looks like a biomechanical suit of sorts" or anything along the lines thereof. The film doesn't show, visually or in any other way, anything that implies or even suggests that that thing is a suit. The thing is presented as a mummified/fossilized lifeform.
That's what you call a retcon -- alteration of previously estabilished facts.
And the reason the Derelict crashed is not the mystery people think has been ruined.
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Mar 10, 2013, 05:54:23 PM
Dallas says "alien lifeform"; he doesn't say "hm, this looks like a biomechanical suit of sorts" or anything along the lines thereof. The film doesn't show, visually or in any other way, anything that implies or even suggests that that thing is a suit. The thing is presented as a mummified/fossilized lifeform.
That's what you call a retcon -- alteration of previously estabilished facts.
And the reason the Derelict crashed is not the mystery people think has been ruined.
It also has teeth and nostrils and every script described it as remains/skeleton of an alien lifeform (except the drafts where theyre remains of human pilots)
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Mar 10, 2013, 05:54:23 PM
Dallas says "alien lifeform"; he doesn't say "hm, this looks like a biomechanical suit of sorts" or anything along the lines thereof. The film doesn't show, visually or in any other way, anything that implies or even suggests that that thing is a suit. The thing is presented as a mummified/fossilized lifeform.
That's what you call a retcon -- alteration of previously estabilished facts.
To play devil's advocate, he also says it's fossilised, which it isn't. If we look at the Alien as a living biomechanical thing, and the Jockey technology as being biological and technological, then it doesn't seem a stretch to think the 'suit' has teeth, nostrils, what-have-you.
Saying that, there's no visible corpse in that chest cavity. Dallas got close and personal and even ran his hand around it and saw nothing. How Scott missed that, I don't know.
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Mar 10, 2013, 05:54:23 PM
Dallas says "alien lifeform"; he doesn't say "hm, this looks like a biomechanical suit of sorts" or anything along the lines thereof. The film doesn't show, visually or in any other way, anything that implies or even suggests that that thing is a suit. The thing is presented as a mummified/fossilized lifeform.
well it seems that Giger did design everything below the head as part of a biomechanical suit and he originally had the idea of putting a transparent dome space helmet over the head. So the head apart from I suppose the nose pipe and the ear area wasn't part of the suit . And then in Giger's hieroglyphs, the depiction of these space beings might allow for some other things to be imagined about the nature of the skuil.
Once we get into Giger's biomechanics, how much of anything is prosthetics is another question.
Quote from: StrangeShape on Mar 10, 2013, 06:05:18 PM
It also has teeth and nostrils and every script described it as remains/skeleton of an alien lifeform (except the drafts where theyre remains of human pilots)
Yup!
Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 10, 2013, 06:20:37 PM
To play devil's advocate, he also says it's fossilised, which it isn't.
Well yes. He didn't use the best of terms [this is probably a scientific goof more than anything else, IMHO], but had the film wanted to say "it's a suit", stating it or implying it, it would have. All it says, and wants to say, is "alien lifeform".
Quote from: wmmvrrvrrmm on Mar 10, 2013, 06:25:11 PM
and he originally had the idea of putting a transparent dome space helmet over the head.
I remember that too:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fitc.ua%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Faliens_giger_03.jpg&hash=432ac540e2471a596e6ca1e526cac88f7538db1c)
I'm not too keen on how Prometheus attempted to close the mystery though.
Without Giger's own biomechanics in the Prometheus, it's as if the enigmatic question had been taken away
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Mar 10, 2013, 06:30:20 PM
Well yes. He didn't use the best of terms [this is probably a scientific goof more than anything else, IMHO], but had the film wanted to say "it's a suit", stating it or implying it, it would have. All it says, and wants to say, is "alien lifeform".
I think it's a goof too, since Ridley
et al called it a fossil too. But talking in-universe, Dallas isn't an authority.
But as you know, overall I agree with you.
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Mar 10, 2013, 05:54:23 PM
Dallas says "alien lifeform"; he doesn't say "hm, this looks like a biomechanical suit of sorts" or anything along the lines thereof. The film doesn't show, visually or in any other way, anything that implies or even suggests that that thing is a suit. The thing is presented as a mummified/fossilized lifeform.
That's what you call a retcon -- alteration of previously estabilished facts.
But there's nothing established about the SJ in
Alien. Nothing
at all. It's hard to retcon something which has no firm basis to begin with.
Add to the fact that Dallas doesn't have the proper training to really say anything definitive about the specimen, there's nothing really contradictory. Aesthetic differences, yes, but there's aesthetic differences between a suit of armour from the 11th century to a suit of armour now. It's just how the designs and technology of the race change over the ages.
As Alien shows us, the Space Jockey looks very different to the Engineers seen in Prometheus. It looks like a dead organism rather than a suit. So who's to say they're the same race?
I love both the Space Jockey and the Engineers, and the differences between them intrigues me. I see no contradiction or retconning in Prometheus to our beloved Space Jockey.
The mystery of who the Space Jockey is still stands.
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 10, 2013, 07:34:37 PM
But there's nothing established about the SJ in Alien. Nothing at all. It's hard to retcon something which has no firm basis to begin with.
The film estabilished that it was an alien lifeform. Dialogue. Had the film wanted to say it was a suit, it would have -- there are
countless ways to do that, visually or via dialogue. It wanted to estabilish that the thing was an alien, and it did.
Quote from: SpaceMarines on Mar 10, 2013, 07:34:37 PM
Add to the fact that Dallas doesn't have the proper training to really say anything definitive about the specimen, there's nothing really contradictory. Aesthetic differences, yes, but there's aesthetic differences between a suit of armour from the 11th century to a suit of armour now. It's just how the designs and technology of the race change over the ages.
A retcon is something that alters a previously estabilished fact without breaking continuity. It's not a contradiction; it's an
alteration. It's different; the latter is confined in continuity.
It's kind of smoother going if I make a practical example. Let's say I make a new
Alien film, and decide to make Jones the cat a
synthetic cat. Does it break continuity? No, because there is not anything against this concept actually featured in the film. Is it a retcon? Absolutely!
Nothing had set up to it,
nothing implied or even suggested it. Jones was of course estabilished as a simple pet cat in
Alien, but my new film would
retcon him into a synthetic cat.
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Mar 10, 2013, 05:54:23 PM
Dallas says "alien lifeform"; he doesn't say "hm, this looks like a biomechanical suit of sorts" or anything along the lines thereof.
Neither do the characters in Prometheus, that is until they have it under an x-ray during later examination. And the decapitated head in Prometheus certainly looks Alien enough before being revealed to be a bio-mech suit.
Nonetheless, I agree that the Engineer is certainly removed from the original Space jockey, however the original creature is left so ambiguous and unexplored that the retcon doesn't bother me all that much at all. The Space Jockey is a skeleton. The Engineer was almost a character (whose best scenes were left on the cutting room floor :-[). I want to see more of them and I certainly see space for the appearance Engineers more befitting of the remains of the creature we have seen in Alien, though that's simply a fan dream as of now.
Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 10, 2013, 06:20:37 PM
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Mar 10, 2013, 05:54:23 PM
Dallas says "alien lifeform"; he doesn't say "hm, this looks like a biomechanical suit of sorts" or anything along the lines thereof. The film doesn't show, visually or in any other way, anything that implies or even suggests that that thing is a suit. The thing is presented as a mummified/fossilized lifeform.
That's what you call a retcon -- alteration of previously estabilished facts.
Saying that, there's no visible corpse in that chest cavity. Dallas got close and personal and even ran his hand around it and saw nothing. How Scott missed that, I don't know.
There isn't much left of the Engineer victims Milburn & Fifield found or the remains of the first Engineer Shaw, David and Holloway find on the other side of the ampule room. In both instances only the suits remain and none of the characters make mention of a corpse beneath or within the cavities, just like Dallas. At least according to my memory.
I'm not seeing the problem here. Of course ALIEN didn't suggest the Space Jockey was a suit, and it's pretty clear watching Prometheus that when Shaw and Ford first find the severed head they assume it to be just that. It's only once they get it back aboard the ship that they realise it's a helmet. That's the point, it's supposed to be a revelation.
However I'd agree that the original Jockey can still be taken as something separate, being larger and structured differently. Those differences could be evolution, or as others have suggested Engineer tech might be based on ancient original Space Jockey biotech. Either way there's no reason to see it as a retcon. In fact, you could be glad of the smoothed out more mechanical aesthetic because it creates an obvious disconnection between the two.
Is the Alien Queen a retcon... ? ;)
Quote from: Gazz on Mar 10, 2013, 09:04:20 PM
Neither do the characters in Prometheus, that is until they have it under an x-ray during later examination.
Indeed. Nothing would have forbidden
Alien to show the 'helmet' to crumble away and reveal a face/skull, or what have you, however.
Curious to note that they aren't all that surprised to find out it's a helmet (in
Prometheus)... it's as if they expected it. No 'gasp!' or whatever.
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Mar 10, 2013, 10:12:34 PM
Quote from: Gazz on Mar 10, 2013, 09:04:20 PM
Neither do the characters in Prometheus, that is until they have it under an x-ray during later examination.
Curious to note that they aren't all that surprised to find out it's a helmet (in Prometheus)... it's as if they expected it. No 'gasp!' or whatever.
Yeah, that bothers me every time. The most reaction we get is out of Shaw but it's muted at best. Everyone else seems rather non-plussed by the discovery, as if dealing with preserved alien heads is their bread and butter (well it kinda is here, but you know what I mean :P) .
Stunned silence.
::)
What's so stunning? ???
Discovery.
Ridley barely gives us a moment to register the extremely brief silence between dialogue as being in awe. It's pretty much business as usual for everyone in the room.
Quote from: Gash on Mar 10, 2013, 09:56:59 PM
I'm not seeing the problem here. Of course ALIEN didn't suggest the Space Jockey was a suit, and it's pretty clear watching Prometheus that when Shaw and Ford first find the severed head they assume it to be just that. It's only once they get it back aboard the ship that they realise it's a helmet. That's the point, it's supposed to be a revelation.
Well, that is where those of us who have a problem with Prometheus find a particular sore point. I realize everyone's opinions vary. However, it is my humble opinion that "retconning" the original Space Jockey organism, and turning it into
not just a creature in a suit/exoskeleton...but a friggin' big blue human in a suit...that is where Prometheus went totally off the rails.
I guess I can at least understand why some might find it an interesting "misdirection" / "twist" if the original Space Jockey turned out to be an otherwordly (alien) organism in some type of strange biomechanoid "suit". However, when Ridley decided that the "twist" would be so mundane as to be a glorified human on steroids...WTF!!! I wonder if he was simply trying desperately to create some sort of M. Night Shyamalan twist for the sake of shock and surprise. But of course, the underlying reason Scott retconned and shoe-horned a human into our favorite Space Jockey, is due to the simple fact that he decided to go with some bullshit Von Daniken-esque "ancient astronaut" storyline.
And as has already been pointed out numerous times on this forum...the fact that the original mummified Space Jockey's head featured eye orbitals in it's skull, along with teeth/tusks, indicates to me that the final design, as filmed, was never intended to be some sort of "suit".
Quote from: Alien³ on Mar 10, 2013, 01:57:27 PM
The paintings depict them visiting us and pointing the planet system that contains LV-223 I understand. But they also depict the Engineers being nice to us. Who's to say on LV-223 (at that point in history) the facility is even built? In that time anything could have been there. This is all pointless anyway.
I don't know why I even bother. It's like watching people dancing around a fire getting burned and pretending it's not there.
QuoteLet's say I make a new Alien film, and decide to make Jones the cat a synthetic cat. Does it break continuity? No, because there is not anything against this concept actually featured in the film. Is it a retcon? Absolutely! Nothing had set up to it, nothing implied or even suggested it. Jones was of course estabilished as a simple pet cat in Alien, but my new film would retcon him into a synthetic cat.
Scott thought it was a suit, he used the updated film to tweak his creation to suit today's audience - pun intended.
You can't retcon something that's not been made absolutely clear as fact. You can leave people disappointed but that's about it.
Quote from: Highland on Mar 11, 2013, 02:36:48 AM
Scott thought it was a suit, he used the updated film to tweak his creation to suit today's audience - pun intended.
You can't retcon something that's not been made absolutely clear as fact. You can leave people disappointed but that's about it.
Hi Highland,
I am pretty sure that the first we ever heard that Ridley Scott thought the Space Jockey might be a suit, was close around the time that Alien5/Prometheus had begun pre-production/planning. It is my understanding that there is no record of him holding this view either during the filming of Alien, nor anytime in the the long years that followed, except for the relatively recent past.
Quote from: Deuterium on Mar 11, 2013, 03:01:38 AM
Quote from: Highland on Mar 11, 2013, 02:36:48 AM
Scott thought it was a suit, he used the updated film to tweak his creation to suit today's audience - pun intended.
You can't retcon something that's not been made absolutely clear as fact. You can leave people disappointed but that's about it.
Hi Highland,
I am pretty sure that the first we ever heard that Ridley Scott thought the Space Jockey might be a suit, was close around the time that Alien5/Prometheus had begun pre-production/planning. It is my understanding that there is no record of him holding this view either during the filming of Alien, nor anytime in the the long years that followed, except for the relatively recent past.
I think your wrong. I'm sure someone will chime in with the source material but I'm sure on the Alien commentary he rambles on about it being a suit.
Even then he actually always did say he was a pilot of a bomber type ship which is exactly what we are given in Prometheus. A pilot sitting a chair wearing a pilot's suit. Not that far-fetched is it?
^^^ Well when they did the original film,i'm pretty sure they didn't envisioned warrior xenos and a queen and yet Cameron change things and they became canon,no matter how upset some people were during production and after. The same with the xeno in Alien 3 who gets the traits from the host,another change, but hey,it's now canon.
Scott mixed things again,you may disagree with him, but it's irrelevant,cause once the movie was launched , the jockey being a humanoid became canon also.
And hey, i believe they played with the idea even during the first movie. Those murals depicting the xeno lifecycle with humanoid looking jockeys with helmet type heads didn't materialise out of thin air
Quote from: Valaquen on Mar 10, 2013, 10:09:07 PM
Is the Alien Queen a retcon... ? ;)
It's a idea I never cared for as you know, but Prometheus at least has made the hive caste idea merely one of the routes of the alien life cycle, so I'm now more reconciled to the queen existing alongside the original creepier idea behind the eggs.
Quote from: Highland on Mar 11, 2013, 07:10:41 AM
Quote from: Deuterium on Mar 11, 2013, 03:01:38 AM
Quote from: Highland on Mar 11, 2013, 02:36:48 AM
Scott thought it was a suit, he used the updated film to tweak his creation to suit today's audience - pun intended.
You can't retcon something that's not been made absolutely clear as fact. You can leave people disappointed but that's about it.
Hi Highland,
I am pretty sure that the first we ever heard that Ridley Scott thought the Space Jockey might be a suit, was close around the time that Alien5/Prometheus had begun pre-production/planning. It is my understanding that there is no record of him holding this view either during the filming of Alien, nor anytime in the the long years that followed, except for the relatively recent past.
I think your wrong. I'm sure someone will chime in with the source material but I'm sure on the Alien commentary he rambles on about it being a suit.
Even then he actually always did say he was a pilot of a bomber type ship which is exactly what we are given in Prometheus. A pilot sitting a chair wearing a pilot's suit. Not that far-fetched is it?
actually i watched prometheus with ridleys commentary and this is exactly what he said "at the time i never thought it to be anything other than a skeleton" so yes in the beginning even ridley wanted the jockey to be skeletal and not a suit. not only that but Dan Obanon's script describes the space jockey as grotesque being bearing no resemblance to a human. i think people are disappointed due to the fact that the mystery of the jockey is ruined in the sense that nothing was known about them at the time, their whole race was a mystery in the alien franchise. not to mention that some thought the jockeys were ruined in Prometheus was also due to the fact that alien presented more of a dark "Lovecraftian" and outworldy feel to it. whereas Prometheus presented the polar opposite which was "the ancient astronaut" theme.
One way or the other the mystery of the Space Jockey was always going to blown in Prometheus.
Quote from: Gash on Mar 11, 2013, 01:17:32 PM
One way or the other the mystery of the Space Jockey was always going to blown in Prometheus.
Only if you want it to.
The only way to redeem the mystery of the Space Jockey is to have these Engineers be just another species that has had something to do with them. Either by being a creation of the Space Jockeys or discovering their long dead remains, like humans, did. Actually, even the derelict and SJ in Alien could have been something created by a far more eerie and mysterious entity.
The Space Jockey is one of the few, possibly even the only, mystery that I enjoy just not knowing the story behind. I don't want Prometheus to ruin that. Expand upon it by all means but don't take it away from me, man!
Quote from: Deuterium on Mar 11, 2013, 03:01:38 AMI am pretty sure that the first we ever heard that Ridley Scott thought the Space Jockey might be a suit, was close around the time that Alien5/Prometheus had begun pre-production/planning.
Not sure of the exact timing, but you're right - it was well after
Alien was released. Wasn't it even after the original pitch from Spaihts? It was his daft idea to tie the Jockey to Earth if I recall.
Ridley Scott: "He was perceived, the giant was perceived as skeletal and erm, I kept staring at the skeleton which was kind of a wonderful drawing by H R Giger, and erm, then I thought, twenty, thirty, twenty, actually twenty six years on (1995?), I thought what if this is not a skeleton, but, because we only see it as a skeleton, because of our own, the way we see things in our own indoctrination, and er now I thought, what happens if its another form of protection or a suit? If its a suit then what's inside the suit" ( Mark Kermode and Simon Mayo's Film reviews, BBCRadio 5 live, 01 June 2012.
Thanks to wmmvrrvrrmm
There's nothing very specific in Ridley's ALIEN commentaries, he talks about the pilot - part of a military operation - being fused to the chair.
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Mar 13, 2013, 01:21:06 PM
Ridley Scott: "He was perceived, the giant was perceived as skeletal and erm, I kept staring at the skeleton which was kind of a wonderful drawing by H R Giger, and erm, then I thought, twenty, thirty, twenty, actually twenty six years on (1995?), I thought what if this is not a skeleton, but, because we only see it as a skeleton, because of our own, the way we see things in our own indoctrination, and er now I thought, what happens if its another form of protection or a suit? If its a suit then what's inside the suit" ( Mark Kermode and Simon Mayo's Film reviews, BBCRadio 5 live, 01 June 2012.
Thanks to wmmvrrvrrmm
Thanks for the feedback, OmegaZ.
Nevertheless, if I understand this correctly, this is a
2012 quote from Ridley Scott in which he
recollects first thinking about the possibility that the Space Jockey = Suit, back in 1995. Even if we take him at his word (and his memory as accurate), this was still 25+ years after ALIEN.
Here is my
personal opinion as to how the Space Jockey concepts stack up:
BEST ===> The Space Jockey is a totally alien organism, from a highly advanced space-faring civilization. The Space Jockey's form is more or less as depicted in the original ALIEN, although it has become desiccated and mummifed due to exposure to the atmosphere of LV-426. It is not a suit. It's physical form represents a surreal, biomechanical design...which may in fact have been "engineered" too perform a unique role in the alien civilization's society (e.g., bad-ass starship pilot). This "Pilot" may live a sessile life, permanently integrated to it's console, to such a degree that it is a question if the Jockey is an extension of the Ship, or the Ship is an extension of the Jockey.
Lot's of cool possibilities, here.
GOOD (Acceptable) ==> The Space Jockey may have been an external, exo-suit (although as mentioned in one of my prior posts, this is not consistent with what was displayed on film). However, the important point, here, is that whatever is "inside" the suit, turns out to be just as alien and inscrutable.
BAD (Execrable) ==> The Space Jockey is just an external suit with a big blue Human inside.
----------------------------
P.S. -- I would still be interested if someone were able to dig up an interview or quote from Ridley, prior to 2008/2009, in which he discusses the possibility that the Space Jockey was a suit.
Good job he isn't blue then.
Quote from: Gash on Mar 13, 2013, 05:49:29 PM
Good job he isn't blue then.
Sorry, my bad. TEAL !!! :P ;)
I was in fact supporting your point Deuterium.
I myself had never heard the suit thing before 2009-2010 -- which would fit with the thirty years thing.
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Mar 13, 2013, 06:39:47 PM
I was in fact supporting your point Deuterium.
I myself had never heard the suit thing before 2009-2010 -- which would fit with the thirty years thing.
I know, OmegaZ.
I was just trying to emphasize your findings...i.e., that the quote was from 2012, and that Ridley was recounting that he first thought about the "suit" concept in 1995. IMHO, his "recollection", itself, may be dubious.
He certainly said it very publicly a couple of years before Prometheus came out. I doubt he gave it that much thought before he considered a prequel, unless whilst interviewed about ALIEN where he's talked about being amazed that none of the sequels addressed the question of 'who's the big guy in the chair'. My guess is that he always had vague ideas about the bomber pilot and when the prospect of a prequel became a reality those ideas became something more solid based on the practicalities of how you could tell his story.
Quote from: Gash on Mar 13, 2013, 07:22:13 PM
He certainly said it very publicly a couple of years before Prometheus came out. I doubt he gave it that much thought before he considered a prequel, unless whilst interviewed about ALIEN where he's talked about being amazed that none of the sequels addressed the question of 'who's the big guy in the chair'. My guess is that he always had vague ideas about the bomber pilot and when the prospect of a prequel became a reality those ideas became something more solid based on the practicalities of how you could tell his story.
Hi Gash,
I agree that your thoughts on this are, in fact, quite reasonable, and certainly possible. It is just that I have yet to find a concrete example of Ridley being on-the-record with the "suit idea", prior to
the 2009-ish period...which puts this in the same time-frame of when Alien5/Prometheus was in the conception/pre-production phase.
I admittedly may be overly cynical, here, but I am sensing a direct correlation between the adoption of the "Von Daniken/ancient astronaut" angle, and what I have characterized as the "shoe-horning" of a glorified human into the Space Jockey suit. In other words, it "conveniently" became a suit, in order to accomodate the script's revelation that the Space Jockeys/Engineers are in fact large, human beings.
Now, I certainly understand that many people have no problem with this particular issue, and I of course respect their views. For me, however, this particular narrative decision was perhaps the single most aggregious mis-step for the film.
P.S. -- I like your hypothesis regarding Ridley perhaps thinking about and identifying the Space Jockey as some sort of interstellar "bomber pilot", and hence the chair/cockpit/suit metaphor. If this was the case, I wish Ridley went with my "good" scenario (see earlier post), and at least kept the being inside the "suit" completely alien. And of course, my three scenarios and rankings are just my humble opinion.
Quote from: Deuterium on Mar 13, 2013, 09:27:49 PM
For me, however, this particular narrative decision was perhaps the single most aggregious mis-step for the film.
I agree.
The Derelict scene was basically an enormous imagination trigger. It was intellectually and creatively stimulating, regardless of how much knowledge you had on the actual ideas and themes behind it.
With
Prometheus, it all became devastatingly dull and uninteresting.
IMHO of course.
Quote from: Deuterium on Mar 13, 2013, 09:27:49 PMI am sensing a direct correlation between the adoption of the "Von Daniken/ancient astronaut" angle, and what I have characterized as the "shoe-horning" of a glorified human into the Space Jockey suit.
Perhaps not a direct correlation, but an accumulative one. As Gash properly says, the suit idea might of taken form in his mind decades ago when thinking about the 'practicalities of how you could tell his story', and it was always an interesting idea with great possibilities IMO.
BUT, add in the original pitch from Spaihts about making the Jockey 'relatable' and it's all aboard the god-damned woohoo train.
Quote from: Deuterium on Mar 13, 2013, 09:27:49 PM
I admittedly may be overly cynical, here, but I am sensing a direct correlation between the adoption of the "Von Daniken/ancient astronaut" angle, and what I have characterized as the "shoe-horning" of a glorified human into the Space Jockey suit. In other words, it "conveniently" became a suit, in order to accomodate the script's revelation that the Space Jockeys/Engineers are in fact large, human beings.
Now, I certainly understand that many people have no problem with this particular issue, and I of course respect their views. For me, however, this particular narrative decision was perhaps the single most aggregious mis-step for the film.
Not really. Tell me how you put the Space Jockey into the film in any other way without busting up the Alien Franchise?
It has to be either before Alien or after Resurrection. If it's after, that leaves a whole bunch of questions on why they were never found before. So you make it before, but you need the humans to find the base so how do you do that ?
You can see the thought process behind it all. It makes perfect sense.
I might be the only one who found the Engineers to be a scarier idea than what was previously thought. The idea that we might be alone in the universe with a species of creatures that want to kill us.
But we're not really alone. Ridley said that it didn't matter whether or not the planet at the beginning was Earth, meaning that the Engineers did their little experiments on numerous planets.
That in mind, what if it was Earth? And our planet is the only one.
QuoteI might be the only one who found the Engineers to be a scarier idea than what was previously thought. The idea that we might be alone in the universe with a species of creatures that want to kill us.
yea i too found it creepy/eerie/unnerving - especially if you consider the engineers (and us) are the only life in the universe. they made us and want to kill us :o
QuoteBut we're not really alone. Ridley said that it didn't matter whether or not the planet at the beginning was Earth, meaning that the Engineers did their little experiments on numerous planets.
i know Ridley said that but i think it was meant to be earf. :laugh:
-in the early drafts of the script its meant to be earf is it not? :laugh:
-whilst shooting in Iceland Ridley refered to the scene as the primordial dawn of man/creation on earf or something like that :laugh:
-the next scene being the cave paintings seemed to suggest it was set on earf many years ago (and its established throughout the movie that they created us so its reasonable to assume the opening was the engineer doing just that) :laugh:
-the scene seems to suggest it was set many years before the engineers we see on LV233 (which has bee deserted for 2000 years) due to the different ship design - so earf again :laugh:
unless it was set on LV233 (not earf) 2000 years ago (but i dont think so) :laugh: :
http://coedmagazine.com/2012/06/11/prometheus-opening-scene-alternate-take/ (http://coedmagazine.com/2012/06/11/prometheus-opening-scene-alternate-take/)
Regardless of whether the planet in the opening was Earth or not, the same thing did happen on Earth. Ridley is just implying that it didn't just happen on Earth.
Quote from: Highland on Mar 14, 2013, 01:43:30 PM
Quote from: Deuterium on Mar 13, 2013, 09:27:49 PM
I admittedly may be overly cynical, here, but I am sensing a direct correlation between the adoption of the "Von Daniken/ancient astronaut" angle, and what I have characterized as the "shoe-horning" of a glorified human into the Space Jockey suit. In other words, it "conveniently" became a suit, in order to accomodate the script's revelation that the Space Jockeys/Engineers are in fact large, human beings.
Now, I certainly understand that many people have no problem with this particular issue, and I of course respect their views. For me, however, this particular narrative decision was perhaps the single most aggregious mis-step for the film.
Not really. Tell me how you put the Space Jockey into the film in any other way without busting up the Alien Franchise?
It has to be either before Alien or after Resurrection. If it's after, that leaves a whole bunch of questions on why they were never found before. So you make it before, but you need the humans to find the base so how do you do that ?
You can see the thought process behind it all. It makes perfect sense.
Hi Highland,
I think you misunderstand me. I don't have a problem with the Space Jockeys/Engineers being featured or even the focus of Prometheus. I am absolutely fine with this idea. My problem is the decision that was made to turn the wonderfully surreal, alien Space Jockey into big
blue teal humans.
This fact, that one of the great wonders and mysteries of the original ALIEN film is resolved and explained by something so mundane and "terrestrial", is the aggregious mistake that I am talking about. In my humble opinion, of course.
I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but there is still hope Deut.
Just make the blue man group part of the 'ancient aliens' crap and have them be the genetically-tampered-to-perfection offspring of the Elephant Jockeys with humans, maybe created to be go-betweens in the ancient past? They could have human traits, forms, obviously, that can mate with the Elephant jocks biomechanical technology.
Then the Dr. Manhattans steal the secrets of the Alien goo (used to create life) to destroy their former parents, who left them on Earth, leading to the starmaps. They're angry at the Elephant jockeys, and stumble upon the Alien (which is the consequence of using the goo on humans, who were created by the Elephant jockeys causing a sort of hideous 'inbreeding.')
The blue man group sets up an elaborate temple to their perfect, hybrid kind (the head) and attempts to weaponize this goo when Janek shows up with his Christmas tree.
((This ain't gonna happen, but it's where my dreams want to go!))
Next week, on Days of Our Aliens...
The mythology of Prometheus is dumb enough -- we don't need exopolitics further complicating the mess.
The whole purpose of Prometheus was to answer the question 'so who's the guy in the chair'. All of this is pointless. The Derelict is Engineer stuff and the Pilot is a suited Engineer.
In purely movie Alien-to-Prometheus canon at least.
If they're gonna actually show who the Pilot is, they will make him an Engineer.
Quote from: RagingDragon on Mar 14, 2013, 04:00:56 PM
I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but there is still hope Deut.
Just make the blue man group part of the 'ancient aliens' crap and have them be the genetically-tampered-to-perfection offspring of the Elephant Jockeys with humans, maybe created to be go-betweens in the ancient past? They could have human traits, forms, obviously, that can mate with the Elephant jocks biomechanical technology.
Then the Dr. Manhattans steal the secrets of the Alien goo (used to create life) to destroy their former parents, who left them on Earth, leading to the starmaps. They're angry at the Elephant jockeys, and stumble upon the Alien (which is the consequence of using the goo on humans, who were created by the Elephant jockeys causing a sort of hideous 'inbreeding.')
The blue man group sets up an elaborate temple to their perfect, hybrid kind (the head) and attempts to weaponize this goo when Janek shows up with his Christmas tree.
((This ain't gonna happen, but it's where my dreams want to go!))
This idea is so crazy...it just might work!
;D 8)
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Mar 14, 2013, 04:10:15 PM
The whole purpose of Prometheus was to answer the question 'so who's the guy in the chair'. All of this is pointless. The Derelict is Engineer stuff and the Pilot is a suited Engineer.
In purely movie Alien-to-Prometheus canon at least.
If they're gonna actually show who the Pilot is, they will make him an Engineer.
Hi OmegaZ,
Not sure if you are commenting at me, and (like Highland) may be confused with my arguments/complaints in regards to the Space Jockey.
I thought my earlier 3-Scenario ranking made my thoughts on this matter clear...but perhaps not.
To re-iterate:
That the Space Jockeys are a featured and integral aspect of the Prometheus story ==> No Problem
That the Space Jockeys are the Engineers* ==> No Problem
*heck, I thought we used the terms interchangeably, even before Prometheus
That the Space Jockey/Engineers are revealed to be big Humans, instead of aliens (suit or no suit) ==>
Problem
Um, the Blue Man Group and Dr. Manhattan quips were jokes. :laugh:
But the rest was not. Omega stated the obvious in that there's the highest probability that the Engineers are the end-all of everything :-\ but... it's just so lame. The Jockey was obviously a creature of some sort. It had f**king teeth and a tongue, which were clearly shown in Alien.
Hey, is that a dead horse? *Flogs dead horse*
Quote from: Deuterium on Mar 14, 2013, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: RagingDragon on Mar 14, 2013, 04:00:56 PM
I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but there is still hope Deut.
Just make the blue man group part of the 'ancient aliens' crap and have them be the genetically-tampered-to-perfection offspring of the Elephant Jockeys with humans, maybe created to be go-betweens in the ancient past? They could have human traits, forms, obviously, that can mate with the Elephant jocks biomechanical technology.
Then the Dr. Manhattans steal the secrets of the Alien goo (used to create life) to destroy their former parents, who left them on Earth, leading to the starmaps. They're angry at the Elephant jockeys, and stumble upon the Alien (which is the consequence of using the goo on humans, who were created by the Elephant jockeys causing a sort of hideous 'inbreeding.')
The blue man group sets up an elaborate temple to their perfect, hybrid kind (the head) and attempts to weaponize this goo when Janek shows up with his Christmas tree.
((This ain't gonna happen, but it's where my dreams want to go!))
This idea is so crazy...it just might work!
;D 8)
Quote from: OmegaZilla on Mar 14, 2013, 04:10:15 PM
The whole purpose of Prometheus was to answer the question 'so who's the guy in the chair'. All of this is pointless. The Derelict is Engineer stuff and the Pilot is a suited Engineer.
In purely movie Alien-to-Prometheus canon at least.
If they're gonna actually show who the Pilot is, they will make him an Engineer.
Hi OmegaZ,
Not sure if you are commenting at me, and (like Highland) may be confused with my arguments/complaints in regards to the Space Jockey.
I thought my earlier 3-Scenario ranking made my thoughts on this matter clear...but perhaps not.
To re-iterate:
That the Space Jockeys are a featured and integral aspect of the Prometheus story ==> No Problem
That the Space Jockeys are the Engineers* ==> No Problem
*heck, I thought we used the terms interchangeably, even before Prometheus
That the Space Jockey/Engineers are revealed to be big Humans, instead of aliens (suit or no suit) ==> Problem
Interested to know... Is it that you didn't like the movie so the "big humans" stand out like sore thumbs and make it worse for you or that regardless of what else might have been improved for you (be it script, the 'science' etc.) "big humans" would have just ruined it anyways?
They should cast Jeff Goldblum as the Engineers in the next one. Just sayin'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARaic1x-MRs# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARaic1x-MRs#)
I'm so happy they went down the route they went.
Engineers all the way.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/prometheus/behind/behind041.jpg)
Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 14, 2013, 04:34:47 PM
Interested to know... Is it that you didn't like the movie so the "big humans" stand out like sore thumbs and make it worse for you or that regardless of what else might have been improved for you (be it script, the 'science' etc.) "big humans" would have just ruined it anyways?
Hi Darth,
The single biggest problem I have with the film is composed of two, interrelated elements.
It was the "Von Daniken/Ancient Astronaut" angle, and it's directly related consequence of retconning the originally alien Space Jockey into big Humans in suits.
While I admittedly had a lot of other problems with the film, the aforementioned is my biggest complaint, and which effectively "ruined" the film, for me.
And again, I have absolutely no problem with the equation: the Space Jockeys = The Engineers.
In fact, I kind of thought this was a given.
The equation I do have a problem with is: The Space Jockeys/Engineers = Humans
I was personally very pleased to hear Ridley in his commentary giving more of a nod towards Nigel Kneale than Von Daniken, but I guess Von Daniken is a more recognised name.
Whilst Kneale was a very talented fiction writer who weaved history and mythology into socially relevant stories, Von Daniken presented wild 'theories' and speculation.
The fact the Ridley was citing stronger influences from Kneale - an very important landmark figure in groundbreaking British television drama through the 1950s to 70's, is ok with me.
Engineer #1:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn549%2Fsmarty9000%2Fprometheus7%2Fengineer1a_zps5137b286.png&hash=8f6ae4a629eda744c38f0f6a90a58a1d5a90a616)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn549%2Fsmarty9000%2Fprometheus7%2Fengineer1b_zps46fb4fd7.png&hash=29210d5b0457916a9253140c858c68cdff37549a)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn549%2Fsmarty9000%2Fprometheus7%2Fengineer1c_zps4b37c1c6.png&hash=bc86a9565ac1e84bd9768ac1179494dc13af2214)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn549%2Fsmarty9000%2Fprometheus7%2FSJ-to-scale_zps71dad9e2.jpg&hash=876beb041ca25532255df46c59ad1a37878a417b)
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcollider.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fprometheus-engineer-image.jpg&hash=b01a0c800407c589f95ad7796588dafa6059b149)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn549%2Fsmarty9000%2Fprometheus7%2Ffvk_logic_zpsd695eccc.png&hash=c32adbfe3e618cd6bc697ede62364aab951a7d0d)
All of these ae hilarious.
Quote from: 180924609 on Mar 14, 2013, 10:59:26 PM
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn549%2Fsmarty9000%2Fprometheus7%2Ffvk_logic_zpsd695eccc.png&hash=c32adbfe3e618cd6bc697ede62364aab951a7d0d)
Nothing will cheer you up more than a Tootsie Pop!
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi18.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb126%2FDeuterium%2FSpockwithlollipop_zps094cd119.jpg&hash=8fa352bac879cacf7be87dcb03bec04948f81423)
Quote from: Cvalda on Mar 14, 2013, 04:38:15 PM
They should cast Jeff Goldblum as the Engineers in the next one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iSodRyF4SI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iSodRyF4SI#)
Quote from: 180924609 on Mar 14, 2013, 11:17:43 PM
Quote from: Cvalda on Mar 14, 2013, 04:38:15 PM
They should cast Jeff Goldblum as the Engineers in the next one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iSodRyF4SI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iSodRyF4SI#)
Holy Crap...who would have figured James Watson eventually turns into Brundlefly!!
Quote from: Deuterium on Mar 14, 2013, 05:00:48 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on Mar 14, 2013, 04:34:47 PM
Interested to know... Is it that you didn't like the movie so the "big humans" stand out like sore thumbs and make it worse for you or that regardless of what else might have been improved for you (be it script, the 'science' etc.) "big humans" would have just ruined it anyways?
Hi Darth,
The single biggest problem I have with the film is composed of two, interrelated elements.
It was the "Von Daniken/Ancient Astronaut" angle, and it's directly related consequence of retconning the originally alien Space Jockey into big Humans in suits.
While I admittedly had a lot of other problems with the film, the aforementioned is my biggest complaint, and which effectively "ruined" the film, for me.
And again, I have absolutely no problem with the equation: the Space Jockeys = The Engineers.
In fact, I kind of thought this was a given.
The equation I do have a problem with is: The Space Jockeys/Engineers = Humans
Thanks D - well I'm not a lover of the 'small universe' factor... and engineers creating humans does make the Alien universe a tad smaller. However I do like the angle of humans being a failed/aborted experiment and the notion of our biggest enemy/danger being those that created us. Not sure how they'd have made that angle gel better - perhaps have left it for a twist at the end of the movie rather than the 'they are us' reveal early on?
I personally would have also cut the opening scenes with the engineer sacrifice (as nicely shot as it was), as again this took away from some of the mystery and made their culture seem a little more 'human-esque'.