After re watching the movie, The thing that sticks out the most is how bad it seems the movie wants you to dislike the characters. I think the worst offender is the captain.
From the very beginning he comes off as being a prick. Calls himself a man of faith, and yet he doesn't allow for a proper funeral for the previous captain? Like? wtf? And then after watching somebody get their head bitten off, and David literally tell him not to kill the creature, he then proceeds to trust David and stick his head into a giant egg?
I like the movie, but omg the characters are terrible. The only two characters who are likeable and who i can remember the names to are Daniels and Tennessee. Everyone else are just random sacks of meat written to be killed off without any character development.
Quote from: Inverse Effect on Oct 18, 2021, 07:50:04 PM
Calls himself a man of faith, and yet he doesn't allow for a proper funeral for the previous captain? Like? wtf?
I think that was the point though. Yes, he's man of faith but he lives in a society where religious people are being looked down on. So he tries to act as a "rational man", to do it "by the numbers". He worries that crew won't take him seriously as a new captain so he tries to assert his leadership right now and there by refusing to arrange for the funeral of late captain so the crew knows that his orders are not to be f**ked with
Quote from: Inverse Effect on Oct 18, 2021, 07:50:04 PM
And then after watching somebody get their head bitten off, and David literally tell him not to kill the creature, he then proceeds to trust David and stick his head into a giant egg?
Even though movie could've done a better job of conveying it, I take it as Oram being still cautious but albeit curious and eager to find out what's going on. And he didn't watch movie Alien - he couldn't expect giant spider creature to jump at his face
Quote from: Inverse Effect on Oct 18, 2021, 07:50:04 PM
Daniels and Tennessee
No, they're awful too. The only characters of any worth are both played by Fassbender.
And that's fine because they're the only two "characters" the film cares about. It's a valid creative choice, it's just not one I expect would have any particular appeal to most people, which I suspect Ridley knew and didn't care about in the slightest.
In Alien the only really likeable character is captain Dallas. Parker comes close to stealing the movie but he's still a bit of an asshole and Ripley is by design stiff and remote until the climax.
The only person I would call unlikeable in Alien is Ash. Ripley just seems sensible.
Alien is the only film to make the characters feel like just ordinary people.
Covenant tries to portray most of the crew as ordinary people, like Alien, but it comes across too forced for the most part. A lot of the banter as they approach the planet, for example, feels off and is even cringy at times. That said, I do still think Oram's character is one of the better ones in the film despite some logic flaws.
Interesting topic. Here are my thoughts. About the worst characters - Daniels, Tennessee and his wife - Faris.
I like Oram. The execution was awkward, but he was right about that the ship repairing is much important than the funeral of nameless captain. Oram also was written better than Daniels, and was some kind of Shaw's spiritual descendant. But the plot or maybe dumb (as always) suits forced Ridley to made the faceless Daniels mc. She has no personality and, tbh, the actor's play was weak and unconvincing. Tennessee - i'm in rage about this brainless "organism". He is annoying, he made a stupid things, he acts like a jerk. And of course - Faris. She is a cowardly dumb hysterical life form. She kill Karine, which a better character than F. And she can't kill neomorph. She also blew up the lander. What wrong with people, which sent her to this mission? Even Lambert looks better to compare with Faris.
Quote from: PsyKore on Oct 19, 2021, 11:17:17 AM
A lot of the banter as they approach the planet, for example, feels off and is even cringy at times.
Whole "your wife's tits" bit was super-cringe
Quote from: Drukathi on Oct 19, 2021, 12:00:11 PM
And of course - Faris. She is a cowardly dumb hysterical life form. She kill Karine, which a better character than F. And she can't kill neomorph. She also blew up the lander. What wrong with people, which sent her to this mission? Even Lambert looks better to compare with Faris.
No amount of training could've prepared her to what happened. She saw her colleague vomit blood, she saw some alien creature litterally burrowing its way out of his back. She didn't "kill" Karine - she tried to stop the infection. Granted, she got sprayed blood all over her face too but I don't think she was capable to think strictly rationally in that moment. And she couldn't kill neomorph 'cause damn thing was too fast and dodging her bullets. She blew up lander once again 'cause she wasn't thinking rationally and wanted to get rid of the damn thing before it gets to her too. She was scared, she panicked. That's it
I think Alien had all the characters feel the most real. The entire cast was great IMO. Aliens has some fodder characters, but even they felt distinct, save probably Weirzbowski, and Crowe. The principle cast was excellent.
This explanation catch me for the first time. And I even argued with all people, which called Faris a dumb using your arguments. But with every watching the film I think that Faris was really irritating and pretty stupid.
I call it - Millburn's syndrome. The same situation like with Millburn from Prometheus, when he wants to pat the snake. We can accept context (cut out for some reason), we can even understand his actions without context. But after 167 times it lost all arguments.
Quote from: Some Old Dude on Oct 19, 2021, 06:13:11 AM
And that's fine because they're the only two "characters" the film cares about. It's a valid creative choice, it's just not one I expect would have any particular appeal to most people, which I suspect Ridley knew and didn't care about in the slightest.
No disagreement here.
Quote from: PsyKore on Oct 19, 2021, 11:17:17 AM
Covenant tries to portray most of the crew as ordinary people, like Alien, but it comes across too forced for the most part. A lot of the banter as they approach the planet, for example, feels off and is even cringy at times. That said, I do still think Oram's character is one of the better ones in the film despite some logic flaws.
What little we get is fine. But it's crumbs. But if crazy old Ridley was intending to make a movie that was just David and Shaw on the engineer homeworld and then got told by the studio he had to go back to square one, I can feasibly see why he'd brush over all that stuff with the bare minimum.
Mind you I do quite enjoy Covenant, but I half wonder if it wouldn't have been better to let a solid horror director do a more traditional Aliens vs colonists movie on Planet 4 while Ridley did his Prometheus 2 instead of one film trying too hard to please everyone.
I wanted that film so desperately, I wanted it to force a interesting script out of such a confined scenario, alas it is not to be.
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/00f7713c-9387-4036-b2af-c86b3c77df1e/d69es83-27df281d-a369-49a2-a433-30185e8d1ab3.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzAwZjc3MTNjLTkzODctNDAzNi1iMmFmLWM4NmIzYzc3ZGYxZVwvZDY5ZXM4My0yN2RmMjgxZC1hMzY5LTQ5YTItYTQzMy0zMDE4NWU4ZDFhYjMuanBnIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.ZRIKKVqRBeBHXsrf_1MElMb6WRldqW9F0WYSgzuRVXw)
*Huge sigh*
I didn't really find Covenant characters unlikeable, but they weren't always believable. I didn't buy the married couple dynamic between a lot of the pairs which I felt was a HUGE wasted opportunity. I would've dropped the security team and ONLY focused on the married pairs and just had the crew jobs fall within those pairs.
I actually found Oram to be more believable. He got caught in a leadership role and instead of being himself he tried to alter himself to play the role as he thought it should be. Which lead to questionable decision making. I have seen this kind of bullshit a dozen times IRL so I can relate. Usually to more severe levels where dudes go into full jackassery mode and then end up swimming neck deep in bad decision making with no one willing to help them out. But that is what they EXPECT you do do and want you to do so it alters perspectives. I got in trouble for being too laid back, but then eventually people would leave me alone when all my guys did what they were supposed to do. But I took my fair share of shit before then.
So Oram's predicament is definitely one that people who've been in that spot can relate too, even if it isn't how we navigated it.
Quote from: Trash Queen on Oct 20, 2021, 02:58:06 AM
I wanted that film so desperately, I wanted it to force a interesting script out of such a confined scenario, alas it is not to be.
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/00f7713c-9387-4036-b2af-c86b3c77df1e/d69es83-27df281d-a369-49a2-a433-30185e8d1ab3.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzAwZjc3MTNjLTkzODctNDAzNi1iMmFmLWM4NmIzYzc3ZGYxZVwvZDY5ZXM4My0yN2RmMjgxZC1hMzY5LTQ5YTItYTQzMy0zMDE4NWU4ZDFhYjMuanBnIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.ZRIKKVqRBeBHXsrf_1MElMb6WRldqW9F0WYSgzuRVXw)
*Huge sigh*
Spoiler
It's because Prommy is better than Covvie as a cluster of ideas and aesthetics, a morass of gigantic potential.
Quote from: Some Old Dude on Oct 20, 2021, 02:32:40 AM
Quote from: PsyKore on Oct 19, 2021, 11:17:17 AM
Covenant tries to portray most of the crew as ordinary people, like Alien, but it comes across too forced for the most part. A lot of the banter as they approach the planet, for example, feels off and is even cringy at times. That said, I do still think Oram's character is one of the better ones in the film despite some logic flaws.
What little we get is fine. But it's crumbs. But if crazy old Ridley was intending to make a movie that was just David and Shaw on the engineer homeworld and then got told by the studio he had to go back to square one, I can feasibly see why he'd brush over all that stuff with the bare minimum.
I think that's probably true from what we know (going by past comments of Ridley's). I think he did want to go off in another direction but the studio just wanted to sell more Alien. You can definitely tell this by how ho-hum and by-the-numbers the last chapter with the adult alien is, plus the cynical little homages to the original film here and there.
I feel like the David character obtained special focus because it was an element he could perhaps salvage from his original intentions. Of course, I'm just speculating. But I think it was more interesting to go down the David/Haywire AI route than just produce another typical Alien movie.
David is easily the best idea developed in the prequels. His interaction with Walter were the best scenes in the those two films.
Totally agree.
Apart from Tennessee, Daniels and Walter, there are no truly likeable characters. Just no truly despicable ones either apart from David.
The movie novelization helped with the characters, and some other things as well.
Although the prequel novelization should have helped even more but was somehow very lackluster.
My Favorite David Moments.
(https://i.ibb.co/kBSKkfL/ESHp-HLUXs-AEkq-U8.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/C9640zB/david-2.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/KwjMPvG/alien-covenant-flute.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/K6Zj77m/wayne-haag-ac-vfxtiff0006-128c-1-a01887858-2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/J3FnDWC/alien-covenant-alien-day-prologue-the-crossing-video-sneak-peek-70.jpg)
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 26, 2021, 08:37:31 PM
My Favorite David Moments.
https://i.ibb.co/kBSKkfL/ESHp-HLUXs-AEkq-U8.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/C9640zB/david-2.png
https://i.ibb.co/KwjMPvG/alien-covenant-flute.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/K6Zj77m/wayne-haag-ac-vfxtiff0006-128c-1-a01887858-2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/J3FnDWC/alien-covenant-alien-day-prologue-the-crossing-video-sneak-peek-70.jpg
(https://i.ibb.co/C9640zB/david-2.png)
The design for this set has always puzzled me. Who in their right mind would place a statue of David in such a small room that it requires the head to stick up through a hole in the ceiling, so that you can't even see the whole thing?
TC
Ridley Scott
Quote from: Wweyland on Oct 26, 2021, 11:51:14 AM
The movie novelization helped with the characters, and some other things as well.
Although the prequel novelization should have helped even more but was somehow very lackluster.
It felt like a half-decent but totally unrelated sci fi novel that got shoe-horned into the setting, really.
Quote from: TC on Oct 27, 2021, 02:25:05 PM
https://i.ibb.co/C9640zB/david-2.png
The design for this set has always puzzled me. Who in their right mind would place a statue of David in such a small room that it requires the head to stick up through a hole in the ceiling, so that you can't even see the whole thing?
TC
Considering the rest of the scene, there maybe some visual metaphor going on. But from an artistic angle, I like how it accentuates the size of the statue and is in the likeness of the Engineers.
The size they ought to have been anyway.
The giant David in a small room has all sorts of connotations for both David and Weyland. Weyland's head is too big and will be his downfall, same with David.
And not going to lie David is pretty likable amongst the human trash, and those neomorphs as well are pretty sweet. 🤣😘
Quote from: Kimarhi on Oct 20, 2021, 04:11:51 AM
I didn't really find Covenant characters unlikeable, but they weren't always believable. I didn't buy the married couple dynamic between a lot of the pairs which I felt was a HUGE wasted opportunity. I would've dropped the security team and ONLY focused on the married pairs and just had the crew jobs fall within those pairs.
I actually found Oram to be more believable. He got caught in a leadership role and instead of being himself he tried to alter himself to play the role as he thought it should be. Which lead to questionable decision making. I have seen this kind of bullshit a dozen times IRL so I can relate. Usually to more severe levels where dudes go into full jackassery mode and then end up swimming neck deep in bad decision making with no one willing to help them out. But that is what they EXPECT you do do and want you to do so it alters perspectives. I got in trouble for being too laid back, but then eventually people would leave me alone when all my guys did what they were supposed to do. But I took my fair share of shit before then.
So Oram's predicament is definitely one that people who've been in that spot can relate too, even if it isn't how we navigated it.
I think you're right on the money there. To me, the question of whether or not a character is "likable" is completely arbitrary until they actually seem like a believable character. The inconsistencies in the way people act in
Prometheus and
Covenant means that it's very hard to even view them as holistic characters, much less relatable ones. I feel like I watching a walking, talking plot device, rather than an autonomous being.
Alien, on the other hand, shows that we can relate to people doing stupid things, as long as that stupidity results from
consistent character flaws. Kane is too adventurous, Parker too brash, Lambert too neurotic, etc.
Quote from: TC on Oct 27, 2021, 02:25:05 PM
The design for this set has always puzzled me. Who in their right mind would place a statue of David in such a small room that it requires the head to stick up through a hole in the ceiling, so that you can't even see the whole thing?
All that indicates is that you're neither an architect nor an art critic.
Although a poor comparison I think you'll get what I mean- Prometheus feels to me more like Alien and both have more British actors
Whereas Covenant is like Aliens and both have a more American ensemble
Not that it makes a difference to me somebody's nationality but to me it echoes a kind of an inflection of the two prequels respectively imitating vibes separately of the first two films as a result
Re Covenant , It is not that I found I didn't like any of the characters the problem there is the stilted TV show dialogue.
Who is truly likeable apart from Tennessee and Shaw ? I don't mean just ok, I mean really likeable ?
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Nov 25, 2021, 04:23:22 PM
Who is truly likeable apart from Tennessee and Shaw ? I don't mean just ok, I mean really likeable ?
Nobody, Because all of their names were inrevelevent to the plot, since the characters had little to no screen time. And were just nameless fodder. Hated all of the characters apart from the main three. And literally all those are the ones you cares about. Wished they just stuck to a crew of 6 or so people.
Okay.. Maybe not unlikeable. Just forgettable and generic fodder because they lacked any identity. Literally the only 3 i can recall are Tennessee, David/Walter and Daniels(Which gave me Strong Ripley Vibes)
Yeah I forgot about Walter. But indeed, apart from those 3, nada.
You could say the same for many of the Alien movies that DON'T focus on Alien size crews. Which is like the rest of them.
People remember the final Marines in Aliens more than the whole cast because they were given more screen time. You'll notice aside from early meme action that nobody nowadays really talks about Ferro, Spunkmeyer, Crowe, Frost, Drake or Weirzbowski when compared to Hudson, Hicks, Vasquez, and Gorman. Simply because the latter had WAY more screen time. I'd say only Al Matthews spot on performance as a senior NCO is the only exception out of that movie. Same with the Betty crew vs the Auriga crew. Or anybody not named Ripley, Bishop, Clemens, Dillon, 85, or Morse in Alien 3.
I think the writers of the films just need to realize that nobody really cares if nobodies get merc'd its only when you can actually connect with and relate to characters do people actually give a damn whether they live or die in a drama/action/horror sci fi series.
That is why I feel the marriage dynamic was wasted in Covenant. If it wasn't said in passing expository dialogue, I probably wouldn't have even noticed. It could have been used for more emotional depth to make the deaths feel like a kick in the nuts, instead it just seemed like coworkers upset other crewmembers were dying but they'd get over it if they made it out.
You want to see unlikable acting and dialogue? Watch AppleTV's Invasion. Makes AC characters look like they deserve an oscar.
and it seems you all are comparing Apples to Apples anyway, the AC dialogue wasn't extraneous or far fetched. I don't suppose you know any magnificent dialogue coming from space truckers colonizing planets in any recent film or tv shows do you?
At least the director didn't hire a bunch of 80s has been tv stars and B movie class actors whom apparently never worked again. Not to mention a child actress that quit the business.
-just like that guy name James Cameron in 1986
I'll definitely take Apone, Vasquez, Hudson, Hicks and Gorman over any Tennessee, Walter and Daniels. Any f**king day, no hesitation.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Oct 21, 2021, 01:41:37 AM
David is easily the best idea developed in the prequels. His interaction with Walter were the best scenes in the those two films.
He definitely deserves his own Disney villain death.
(https://i.ibb.co/ct6FBQF/14532474fdec20352854c79644139a8e5b5dce8c-hq.gif)
Oram gets my pick. He refuses to allow the mourning of the Captain (James Franco), making the crew disobey him. He decides to visit Planet 4 against his First Mate's objections. He sticks his face in an egg after seeing how untrustworthy David is and that he admires these monsters who kill people.