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I was checking out wikipedia and seeing if there is anything more on the Covenant sequel, I decided to check out the AVP franchise section and it seems Shane Black thinks there could be hope for another movie.

http://www.predator4-movie.com/news/shane-black-thinks-theres-hope-another-alien-vs-predator

The problem I have with this article is that it seems Shane Black said (or at least someone who thinks he said) that every Predator film happened in this continuity, including the AVP ones. Apparently this was said at SDCC. I will try and find some videos on that for confirmation.


This other article quotes him and it appears he doesn't actual say anything to do with AVP movies. https://comicbookrumors.com/the-future-of-alien-and-versus-predator/

The quote "The events of Predators, the Robert Rodriquez one, have not happened yet and Predator 2 has probably happened already. It's present day, it's 2018. It's a reimaging for 2018 of The Predator but all the events of the other movies are sort of acknowledged."

I will still check out a video of the interview/panel to see what is said.

Side noteL Haha "safer to have one and not need it than need one and not have one" (wink)." I might be wrong but I think Rousseau's line was actually "rather have one and not need it and need it and not have one."

The second article mentions an Alien skull in Predators, I don't remember seeing that and as for the jaw bone on Berserker, that is simply too wide to be Xenomorph jaw bone, the teeth are also wrong.

If there is to be another AVP movie, I would like it to start fresh, new continuity with nothing to do with the previous AVP films.
If they want to recycle ideas/concepts like Wolf's design, his whip and plasma pistol, the shurikens and so on, then that is fine, so long as the continuity isn't. And for the love of all that is holy and giger, no egg barfing or rapid life-cycle. Lets have some level of plausibility.


So Shane Black thinks there is hope, only the result of The Predator, Covenent's sequel and the new Alien game will show the studio whether these monsters still have life in them yet and could still be worth a crossover.  If they think there is no longer and interesting in the franchises then an AVP film will be unlikely.




35.48 onward.

Since the franchises got divorced I thought the chances of that were quite low, now with the Disney thing...

Yeah I don't see it happening, either way the AVP concept just seemed too much for someone to get it right in a movie, better leave it for the EU.

If The Predator does good, it may have other Predator only sequels, Ridley just want one more movie so after that who knows?  I would prefer a new predator or avp game, Isolation already gave me what I wanted, but an alien one is better than nothing, hope that goes well.

Yes, but disregarding the previous AVP films (New continuity).  The stories in the comics are a goldmine.  I commented in another thread that the series would get off to a better start if a new AvP was established on the original source material (probably the Noguchi story) then with a storyline that's "thought up" by writers.

I agree. I personally would not want a new AVP film to be a continuation of the previous films either, Requiem almost killed the franchise and it messed the mythology up. I dislike David creating the Xenomorph but at least Covenant erased those films from the continuity.

I would say base a new AVP film on around the comics, such as the one you mentioned or one where there is no team up.
There was a few good ideas in the first AVP film, the concept of being trapped in an Alien temple that is both claustrophobic and moveable seems neat.

Give me a new Alien vs. Predator film! While I do like the pyramids, I don't want a new film to really have anything to do with the old ones. Give me something more in line with the comics or the games - how they should have done it originally. And for the love of God, no more team-ups. I think we're getting a little tired of them.

Yeah, Predators need to regain their scare factor and monstrosity, these team ups tend to make them too much like anti-heroes or sympathetic.

I am trying to think of a comic/novel that was good but had no team up, war perhaps, which showed how brutal the Predators were, but I fear it may show too much of their culture or behaviour out of the hunt, the EU really is a gold mine of potential stories that could be translated on screen but it may need to be altered to be more plausible because honestly some of these stories tend to be crazy, like eternal where a man has lived for centurious by eating Predator hearts.

The concept is more than solid...but it was handed to Anderson and the Strause Brothers. The latter (though by no means great movie directors) were further hamstrung by being denied a space/future setting...so we got a small hick town in 2004

The first film could have been good with the right set up, the pg 13 rating didn't help and the characters needed more development. Setting it on earth was probably not a good idea either. While antartica is an isolated and dangerous environment, the characters don't act is if they enduring extreme cold weather. Lex should have been dead without her coat.

The problem with concept is the two franchises are different in tone. Alien had a relatively realistic down to earth tone while Predator was basically typical 80s action genre, which were known for being over the top.

I think the Predator franchise is very flexible, though. You can place it within that Alien/s tone very well. It's what I feel like the comics and games did.

A new, good AVP movie would do great at the box office if the marketing was well made (that pretty much is the only reason a movie does well or not) we need a new standalone story based on nothing but the original Alien/Predator movies in every aspect, 150/200 millon of dollars for budget, and it has to be adult, dark, serious, really violent, and suspensful. The second AVP game is the best thing we got with the idea, maybe the only good thing.

Is not that hard, the concept sells itself, we just need competent people at the helm.

Also, i cannot bare that Black thought of making the AVP movies canon, what the hell was he thinking? Is the worst idea since making a AVP movie in a small rural town in modern time.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 21, 2018, 11:52:27 AM

The problem with concept is the two franchises are different in tone. Alien had a relatively realistic down to earth tone while Predator
was basically typical 80s action genre, which were known for being over the top.

This.

QuoteWhile antartica is an isolated and dangerous environment, the characters don't act is if they enduring extreme cold weather. Lex should have been dead without her coat.

Why?  Minimum temps on Bouvetoya in October average -7C.  After running around try to get away from the Queen, she's not going to die in a few minutes since Scar dies and her walking to one of the snowmobiles.

My bad. Thought it was colder than that.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 21, 2018, 12:45:22 PM
I think the Predator franchise is very flexible, though. You can place it within that Alien/s tone very well. It's what I feel like the comics and games did.

I actually wonder what a Predator would be like in a suspense horror rather than an action horror. Nothing wrong with the previous formula of course since it worked, but I do think about how scary could a predator be given the chance and proper handling. I mean depending on who you ask, the predator was probably scary enough in the first movie.

Quote from: D88M on Aug 21, 2018, 01:28:52 PM
A new, good AVP movie would do great at the box office if the marketing was well made (that pretty much is the only reason a movie does well or not) we need a new standalone story based on nothing but the original Alien/Predator movies in every aspect, 150/200 millon of dollars for budget, and it has to be adult, dark, serious, really violent, and suspensful. The second AVP game is the best thing we got with the idea, maybe the only good thing.

Is not that hard, the concept sells itself, we just need competent people at the helm.

Also, i cannot bare that Black thought of making the AVP movies canon, what the hell was he thinking? Is the worst idea since making a AVP movie in a small rural town in modern time.

Marketing is going to have to spend a lot trying to convince people to give it a chance though since the previous AVP movies likely disillusioned some.

I don't know if the budget needs to be that high though, as I feel the movie would end up being too cgi ridden. While a low budget can cause problems such as settings and the recycling of those resurrection suits, sometimes it makes the film crew more creative and find better ways to do things that they normally wouldn't think about.

Black might have only been talking about the Predator movies, he doesn't actually say AVP from what I heard in the video. Other than he doesn't think its dead of course.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 21, 2018, 11:52:27 AM
The problem with concept is the two franchises are different in tone. Alien had a relatively realistic down to earth tone while Predator was basically typical 80s action genre, which were known for being over the top.

True - but like Hicks mentioned, I think in order for the AvP side of things to work, the Alien aspect doesn't necessarily need to be dumbed down.  Predator instead should be the side that gets "elevated" to match Alien (like in terms of atmospheric tone, themes, etc.)  It's possible, I think...Predator can be versatile, if the comics are any indication.   

Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 21, 2018, 11:18:19 PM
I actually wonder what a Predator would be like in a suspense horror rather than an action horror. Nothing wrong with the previous formula of course since it worked, but I do think about how scary could a predator be given the chance and proper handling. I mean depending on who you ask, the predator was probably scary enough in the first movie.

This is actually what I really want to see in a future Predator or AvP movie.  Maybe a movie with more mature themes, darker in tone.  This might be the bridge that Predator needs in order to make an AvP film believable.

I don't know whether the super predators might fit or not, they are certainly lacking in sportmanship and could be a more vicious and cruel antagonist,and it would be unlikely for teams ups as well.
I think one comic did sort of have "evil" predators, the three world war one I think. The Predators there had bred Xenomorphs to be their weapons.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 22, 2018, 11:18:38 PM
I think one comic did sort of have "evil" predators, the three world war one I think. The Predators there had bred Xenomorphs to be their weapons.

Yeah the "Killers"... appeared on Prey to the Heavens and Three World War. They used aliens as attack dogs. Didn't like them that much, the comic was way too over the top, stopped taking it seriously when the predator wannabe girl defeated a predator in close combat.

It helped she lived with and trained with Predator's for a year. Plus took part in plenty of hunts. And had previously helped capture a Queen. Machiko was no slouch. Of the comics issues, that wasn't one for me.

She beat up a Predator in AvP: War.

Machiko is probably the closest thing to a main protagonist that the franchise has as she has been in what, three or four books?
The first book would make a good adaption for a movie since the predators in that book were right bastards, they went after a family, which included a child. So other than broken tusk, the Predators there would not be "humanized" like they were in AVP. The only issue would be the team up but given its out of survival and a repayment of debt, it might work but personally I think there is been too much already even if its only happened twice onscreen.

While I agree Predators could be elevated to fit with the Alienverse, it could be (and more likely given the current direction) the otherway around too, the Aliens being either dumbed down or made over the top, actually it has already been done really speaking. The Alien series as been getting more crazier with each film, less attention spent on plausibility or science. Covenant took the cake with its insane rapid life-cycle (which is worse that AVP's and that is saying something). such a complex creature should not be implanted or gestate that fast, even the first film was pushing boundaries with that but at least it wasn't seconds or minutes.

If they make a new AVP film then I don't know which is more likely, more over the top aliens or Predators brought to an alien level tone.
Given the way recent aliens films have gone, as well as the new predator movie involving  genetic alteration, I am feeling a tad cynical about what kind of movie the next AVP would be.
But that said, I still would like to see another AVP movie, as a crossover it might be expected to be a little crazy but as long it renews faith in the franchise and can prove to studios that it is worth investing in, it might be worth it.

Quote from: SM on Aug 23, 2018, 10:06:33 AM
She beat up a Predator in AvP: War.

I remember her getting the better of one but lost due to another Predator grabbing her leg or something. I remember some cheating happened anyway.

Yeah one of the other Predators grabbed her leg.  She was capable of handing out an ass-whupping but saw the writing on the wall in that fight and tanked.

Grabbed by Shorty, the Predator antagonist in AvP: War. Kicked him in the face but threw the fight to not, y'know, die.

I thought she was fighting Shorty. I will have to take a look at that again.

Ah, true: she was fighting Shorty, but grabbed by one of his buddies. She threw the fight with Shorty to not get killed.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 07:09:03 AM
It helped she lived with and trained with Predator's for a year. Plus took part in plenty of hunts. And had previously helped capture a Queen. Machiko was no slouch. Of the comics issues, that wasn't one for me.

She decapitated a predator with one swing from a knife during a fight. Yeah... I will never accept a human doing that so easily. The difference in streng, size, speed between humans and predators are too big, even more next to a human female. This isn't fantasy fiction, where characters call just pull magical power ups, science fiction isn't suppose to be so unrealistic. You are more of an alien fan but didn't you had a problem with a human killing several aliens in close combat? What's next? Making her punch aliens to death?

---

That's one of the biggest problem with the AVP comics(some of the separate comics as well), making the creatures look weak and pathetic next to humans, an average predator should be physically able to literally kill Machiko with a punch.

Then there is the whole "yautja" honor thing and making aliens die by the hundreds, the first avp comic was actually fine but War went full fanboy fanfiction, as well as Deadliest of the Species, Three World War and Xenogenesis. Crazy stuff in those comics. Eternal's story might be a little too much but it had outnumbered aliens that were standing up to humans and predators, plus even with the hightech armor/weapons humans didn't overpowered the creatures. It respected the creatures well.  Thrill of the Hunt and Civilized Beasts were fine, even with a guy using predator equipment it was handled quite well, the only ones that tried to fight predator on close combat were super droids and they got their asses kicked.

Machiko, overhumanized predators, cannon fodder aliens, alien/predator-human teamups, crazy new hybrid creatures, human overpowering the creatures easily, those are the things that shouldn't be repeated, either in a possible next movie or more EU material. At least with the bad comics we really know what they really shouldn't do next time.

In regards to where previous avp movies went wrong and should have went: make it in space, on the future, respect the creatures's streng and lore, make the designs like the originals, no human teaming up with the creatures, make human characters that we believe can fight back and we can care about, like Dutch's team, Ripley and the marines. If they followed the things most fans wanted since the beggining even the average viewer would have liked the movies more.

Quote from: Samhain13 on Aug 23, 2018, 01:29:44 PM

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 07:09:03 AM
It helped she lived with and trained with Predator's for a year. Plus took part in plenty of hunts. And had previously helped capture a Queen. Machiko was no slouch. Of the comics issues, that wasn't one for me.

She decapitated a predator with one swing from a knife during a fight. Yeah... I will never accept a human doing that so easily. The difference in streng, size, speed between humans and predators are too big, even more next to a human female. This isn't fantasy fiction, where characters call just pull magical power ups, science fiction isn't suppose to be so unrealistic. You are more of an alien fan but didn't you had a problem with a human killing several aliens in close combat? What's next? Making her punch aliens to death?

Difference being that Predators don't bleed acid for blood, nor have natural body armour. Predators are consistently taken down in close quarters and with physical impacts.  Big log on the noggin, stabbed with a edged weapon, 2 decapitations in Predators - one by a human - stabbed in the chest in AvP.

This character in particular is shown to be skilled and physically capable in previous issues and it's not like there's no precedence for Predator's to have their heads cut off or be killed in close combat. Even if it's science fiction, there's still elements of fiction involved.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
Difference being that Predators don't bleed acid for blood, nor have nature body

Didn't stop her from killing aliens with wristblades.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
Predator's are consistently taken down in close quarters and with physical impacts. 

She blocked and dodged predator punches and threw it around in War. She grabbed the predator's arm and threw the whole predator away, how much does a predator weight again? More than she could ever make it move I'm sure. Not even Dutch could do the things she is doing, and the difference between Dutch and Machiko in streng is not as big as the difference between Dutch and a Predator. It's like having a teenager girl fighting Dutch and not only being able to keep up but throwing a 200+ pounds man around. It's laughable. Dutch's punch just stunned the predator for a brief moment, and Machiko almost knocked the predator out. The predator was being hurt by her kicks.  :D

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
Big log on the noggin,

That would have killed any human, and he was still alive.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
stabbed with a edged weapon, 2 decapitations in Predators - one by a human - stabbed in the chest in AvP.

By non-human weapons that could also cut an alien apart. Pussyface was injured, weak and tired, Classic was killed by another predator, Berserk was caught off guard after being shot with a sniper and Royce hitted it several times, Chopper and Scar were stabbed by aliens. Not the same thing at all.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
This character in particular is shown to be skilled

Its not just about skill, she would need super human streng to do what she did, and this is not dragon ball.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
and physically capable in previous issues

Previous issues also had those issues.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
it's not like there's no precedence for Predator's to have their heads cut off

Yeah... I might get a little off topic here, but decapitating someone is not that easy, not with just one clean strike specially with a being with a thicker skin and bone like a predator. Samurai used to train a lot to get it done in one blow and they still failed sometimes, its a combination of streng, speed and not having the target in motion. Samurai only did that feat in executions with someone unimobile for a reason: because it's not easy to do that in fight (Royce did with a Berserk on it's knees). And that is with a sharp samurai blade, if it's a random knife or even a machete, it will take several strikes to completely take the head completely off, and that's with human skin. Most men don't have either the streng, speed and skill to do it with one strike.

(https://i.imgur.com/efa8Sqr.jpg)

To do what she did here, she would need to be stronger and faster than any human that ever lived.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
or be killed in close combat.

Context matters, in the movies the predators were injured + caught off guard, they were never so overpowered by someone, specially someone with a even bigger difference in streng.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
Even if it's science fiction, there's still elements of fiction involved.

So it seems.

Quote from: Samhain13 on Aug 23, 2018, 02:46:51 PM

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
Difference being that Predators don't bleed acid for blood, nor have nature body

Didn't stop her from killing aliens with wristblades.

Fair point. Doesn't really bother me though. She's been training with the Predators, I can buy she's learnt their techniques and skills. If she can take down an Alien in close combat, sure, I don't mind her also taking a Predator in close combat.

Quote

She blocked and dodged predator punches and threw it around in War. She grabbed the predator's arm and threw the whole predator away, how much does a predator weight again? More than she could ever make it move I'm sure. Not even Dutch could do the things she is doing, and the difference between Dutch and Machiko in streng is not as big as the difference between Dutch and a Predator. It's like having a teenager girl fighting Dutch and not only being able to keep up but throwing a 200+ pounds man around. It's laughable. Dutch's punch just stunned the predator for a brief moment, and Machiko almost knocked the predator out. The predator was being hurt by her kicks.  :D

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on fighting styles but Dutch wasn't exactly using some sort of special techniques. And strength doesn't always equate to winning. Smaller, faster, more skilled fighters are capable of still damaging bigger and stronger opponents.

QuoteBy non-human weapons that could also cut an alien apart. Pussyface was injured, weak and tired, Classic was killed by another predator, Berserk was caught off guard after being shot with a sniper and Royce hitted it several times, Chopper and Scar were stabbed by aliens. Not the same thing at all.

Not the exact same, no, but still similar. They're physical injuries. And besides, Machiko is decked out in her Predator kit. The blade could have been Predator too.

Quote

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
Yeah... I might get a little off topic here, but decapitating someone is not that easy, not with just one clean strike specially with a being with a thicker skin and bone like a predator. Samurai used to train a lot to get it done in one blow and they still failed sometimes, its a combination of streng, speed and not having the target in motion. Samurai only did that feat in executions with someone unimobile for a reason: because it's not easy to do that in fight (Royce did with a Berserk on it's knees). And that is with a sharp samurai blade, if it's a random knife or even a machete, it will take several strikes to completely take the head completely off, and that's with human skin. Most men don't have either the streng, speed and skill to do it with one strike.

(https://i.imgur.com/efa8Sqr.jpg)

To do what she did here, she would need to be stronger and faster than any human that ever lived.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
or be killed in close combat.

Context matters, in the movies the predators were injured + caught off guard, they were never so overpowered by someone, specially someone with a even bigger difference in streng.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
Even if it's science fiction, there's still elements of fiction involved.

So it seems.

I get it, you don't like a woman decapitated a Predator.  But at the end of the day it is science fiction. Fiction is right there in the title. I'm fairly sure Ripley would not have been able to hold onto that ladder in Aliens. But it is fiction. There's a suspension of disbelief involved. Personally, I give comics even more leeway. It's just not something in the lore that irks me. If it does you, fine.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 01:49:10 PM

Quote from: Samhain13 on Aug 23, 2018, 01:29:44 PM

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 23, 2018, 07:09:03 AM
It helped she lived with and trained with Predator's for a year. Plus took part in plenty of hunts. And had previously helped capture a Queen. Machiko was no slouch. Of the comics issues, that wasn't one for me.

She decapitated a predator with one swing from a knife during a fight. Yeah... I will never accept a human doing that so easily. The difference in streng, size, speed between humans and predators are too big, even more next to a human female. This isn't fantasy fiction, where characters call just pull magical power ups, science fiction isn't suppose to be so unrealistic. You are more of an alien fan but didn't you had a problem with a human killing several aliens in close combat? What's next? Making her punch aliens to death?

Difference being that Predators don't bleed acid for blood, nor have natural body armour. Predators are consistently taken down in close quarters and with physical impacts.  Big log on the noggin, stabbed with a edged weapon, 2 decapitations in Predators - one by a human - stabbed in the chest in AvP.

This character in particular is shown to be skilled and physically capable in previous issues and it's not like there's no precedence for Predator's to have their heads cut off or be killed in close combat. Even if it's science fiction, there's still elements of fiction involved.

In addition, she spent extended periods of time living with and fighting alongside the Predators - the same ones she had to fight (i.e. Shorty).  I'm sure during that period she was able to learn the best methods to take down a Predator while compensating for her stature.  Not that it's similar by any means, but in the hospital we have to do take downs for people over three times my size.  I'd imagine if an actual Predator was teaching you how to do a take down, you'd be able to learn the best way of doing it.  Doesn't seem completely unreasonable.

And Deadliest of Species is as trippy as all get out, but I still can't help but loving it  :laugh:  That is my cross to bear, I suppose.

Quote from: D88M on Aug 21, 2018, 01:28:52 PM
A new, good AVP movie would do great at the box office if the marketing was well made (that pretty much is the only reason a movie does well or not) we need a new standalone story based on nothing but the original Alien/Predator movies in every aspect, 150/200 millon of dollars for budget, and it has to be adult, dark, serious, really violent, and suspensful. The second AVP game is the best thing we got with the idea, maybe the only good thing.

Is not that hard, the concept sells itself, we just need competent people at the helm.

Also, i cannot bare that Black thought of making the AVP movies canon, what the hell was he thinking? Is the worst idea since making a AVP movie in a small rural town in modern time.

Marketing is going to have to spend a lot trying to convince people to give it a chance though since the previous AVP movies likely disillusioned some.

I don't know if the budget needs to be that high though, as I feel the movie would end up being too cgi ridden. While a low budget can cause problems such as settings and the recycling of those resurrection suits, sometimes it makes the film crew more creative and find better ways to do things that they normally wouldn't think about.

Black might have only been talking about the Predator movies, he doesn't actually say AVP from what I heard in the video. Other than he doesn't think its dead of course.
[/quote]

You are right about that, but i doubt general audiences will even care or remember, but is a good point, and Prometheus/Covenant did not made a lot at the box office either.

Maybe a middle-budget would be better, but i think is obvious that if someone makes a AVP movie should do it as old school as possible, animatronics and suits, going for little to almost none CGI, at least is how i would do it if given the chance, and for that a high budget is needed.

Black is putting stuff like the shurikens and Lex spear in the movie, and if i am remembering right he is gonna reference all previous Predator movies and the AVP movies, that is what has my expectations for this movie really low, because is an awful idea to turn the AVP movies into canon.

I don't like the concept of Machiko or it's execution, or the Predators containing and exploiting Aliens like farm animals, or Ellen Ripley being able to hold onto the ladder at the end of Aliens 1986.

Prometheus made plenty at the box office though.

& Shane Black using the Shuriken design that appeared in AVP, doesn't make AVP 2004 anymore canon than Predator Concrete Jungle.

Yeah even the first films had some plausibilty issues, though I read somewhere about how atmosphere expulsion may not be as powerful as one would believe, I think its to do with how much atmosphere there is and how big the breach is. I don't know for sure, not exactly an expert in space.  :laugh:

Quote from: D88M on Aug 23, 2018, 08:28:10 PM
Maybe a middle-budget would be better, but i think is obvious that if someone makes a AVP movie should do it as old school as possible, animatronics and suits, going for little to almost none CGI, at least is how i would do it if given the chance, and for that a high budget is needed.

Black is putting stuff like the shurikens and Lex spear in the movie, and if i am remembering right he is gonna reference all previous Predator movies and the AVP movies, that is what has my expectations for this movie really low, because is an awful idea to turn the AVP movies into canon.

I don't mind cgi, as long as its not saturated in it or overused, practical effects can be done well and I would prefer that to be the primary method of special effects.

I don't think we need to worry about AVP being canon, reusing weapons and concepts doesn't really make the movies canon, it is more like salvaging the interesting things from those movies. That said, worse case scenario that it is: it would only be canon on the Predator side since we know the Alien franchise is now seperate thanks to covenant.

It was separate since Weyland Corporation was founded in 2012, as we found out due to Prometheus.

True but Covenant was the final nail in the coffin.
With Promethues there was still some who thought it was still connected to AVP because the only contradiction was the company and the founder.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 24, 2018, 09:37:19 AM
With Prometheus there was still some who thought it was still connected to AVP because the only contradiction was the company and the founder.

They were wrong. That's not a minor contradiction, it's a major and intentional one.

Even if someone down the line were to retcon David being the first creator of the Alien;
the existence of Prometheus still keeps them separate.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 23, 2018, 11:32:14 PM
Yeah even the first films had some plausibilty issues, though I read somewhere about how atmosphere expulsion may not be as powerful as one would believe, I think its to do with how much atmosphere there is and how big the breach is. I don't know for sure, not exactly an expert in space.  :laugh:

Quote from: D88M on Aug 23, 2018, 08:28:10 PM
Maybe a middle-budget would be better, but i think is obvious that if someone makes a AVP movie should do it as old school as possible, animatronics and suits, going for little to almost none CGI, at least is how i would do it if given the chance, and for that a high budget is needed.

Black is putting stuff like the shurikens and Lex spear in the movie, and if i am remembering right he is gonna reference all previous Predator movies and the AVP movies, that is what has my expectations for this movie really low, because is an awful idea to turn the AVP movies into canon.

I don't mind cgi, as long as its not saturated in it or overused, practical effects can be done well and I would prefer that to be the primary method of special effects.

I don't think we need to worry about AVP being canon, reusing weapons and concepts doesn't really make the movies canon, it is more like salvaging the interesting things from those movies. That said, worse case scenario that it is: it would only be canon on the Predator side since we know the Alien franchise is now seperate thanks to covenant.

Agreed.  Props re-appearing in Predator films can probably be viewed more as "easter eggs", unless a character directly makes reference to any of the happenings or characters involved in those films.  I would think any additional movie at this point would start fresh, without the previous AvP's in mind.  They were forgettable enough for non-fans to not care about them being excluded from the continuity, and unpopular enough for most fans (not me) to demand a new beginning.  I just don't see any future AvP movie picking up where the previous ones left.

Quote from: The Old One on Aug 24, 2018, 01:03:20 PM

Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 24, 2018, 09:37:19 AM
With Prometheus there was still some who thought it was still connected to AVP because the only contradiction was the company and the founder.

They were wrong. That's not a minor contradiction, it's a major and intentional one.

Oh I know, but try telling that to some folks, in fact we had one person on the wiki trying to connect it all by saying Peter Weyland was Charles' son :P

I would love to see a soft-reboot of the AVP franchise... Keep the first AVP in mind, and as much as I love Requiem-- I would think it would work better without really continuing where Requiem was going but keep some elements which it introduced, such as the Predator homeworld. Have it set in the future which is closer to the Alien timeline. Ignore PREDATORS, The Predator, and of course the Prometheus/Covenant films... and so something which was closer to the original comics while honoring Predator, Predator 2 and AVP, as well as the Alien films. No Super Predators, no Ultimate Predators, No Engineers...

But thats' just wishful thinking from a fan that... just wanted it to be like how it was presented in the comics, novels, and games. And not what it is now... Ummmm...

Also... I have a question... Is the Alien-Predator timeline like... disjointed and branched off now? I mean I keep on hearing that the AVP films are in the continuity of The Predator, but I do know that the Prometheus/Covenant films ignore the Predator series and the AVP series... So... what's up with the timeline? Are there now two timelines or something?

So just ignore all the film content over the past ten years then?

Right...


It's the same as it's always been, the mainline films are the primary canon.
With the rest being no canon but what we make.
Generally the good stuff, Isolation is in, ACM is out.

Quote from: The Old One on Aug 25, 2018, 06:34:42 AM
So just ignore all the film content over the past ten years then?

Or you know, do what the Godzilla, Halloween and even the Robocop franchise has done as far as continuity is concerned. Nothing is really erased, but different paths to choose from.

Quote from: The Old One on Aug 25, 2018, 06:34:42 AM
Right...

No one said we have to agree.

Quote from: The Old One on Aug 25, 2018, 06:34:42 AM
It's the same as it's always been, the mainline films are the primary canon.

AVP included despite the glaring errors which make it impossible for them to exist in the same timeline due to Prometheus and Covenant? Kind of find that hard to swallow.

That would make sense if, like your examples these incarnations are intended to be separate depictions of the same concept but they aren't.
It's all intended to be the one continuity, whether you like a particular entry or not is of no consequence.

AVP is a spin-off, as I'm sure you know.
Ancillary content, like the Aliens comic with Hicks and Newt before A3's release in 1992.

QuoteAlso... I have a question... Is the Alien-Predator timeline like... disjointed and branched off now? I mean I keep on hearing that the AVP films are in the continuity of The Predator, but I do know that the Prometheus/Covenant films ignore the Predator series and the AVP series... So... what's up with the timeline? Are there now two timelines or something?

There's an Alien timeline and a separate Predator timeline.  AvP could fit with Predator, but not Alien; maybe The Predator will provide a more solid link.  Or AvP is its own thing entirely.

Didn't someone recently say that they were three seperate universes? there was a tweet from someone that Hicks posted I believe.

Personally I think its for the best if there are three seperate continuities, that way each one has its own story and canon without messing with the other and those who don't think they should be crossed over can be satsified with just watching Alien or Predator.

Three separate licenses.  Alien, Predator, AvP.

Quote from: SM on Aug 25, 2018, 08:19:44 AM
There's an Alien timeline and a separate Predator timeline.  AvP could fit with Predator, but not Alien; maybe The Predator will provide a more solid link.  Or AvP is its own thing entirely.

So it's definitive then... There's two timelines/universes then... Always nice to hear from someone enlightened. I sincerely mean that. Thanks SM.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 25, 2018, 09:47:48 AM
Personally I think its for the best if there are three seperate continuities, that way each one has its own story and canon without messing with the other and those who don't think they should be crossed over can be satsified with just watching Alien or Predator.

I can agree to this somewhat... I mean... I would like a Predator continuity which counts only the Predator films, an AVP continuity which counts only the first two Predator films, and leads into the Alien films but not Prometheus/Covenant, and an Alien series which counts only the Prometheus/Covenant prequels and the four Alien films.

But hey... can't have everything.

Quote from: SM on Aug 25, 2018, 08:19:44 AM
There's an Alien timeline and a separate Predator timeline.  AvP could fit with Predator, but not Alien; maybe The Predator will provide a more solid link.  Or AvP is its own thing entirely.

I sense a big ol' myeerge on the horizon. Observe closely, now all we need is Raymond Burr, a voice cameo by Schwarzenegger, and a good editor. :D

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Aug 25, 2018, 09:23:06 PM

An AVP continuity which counts only the first two Predator films, and leads into the Alien films but not the prequels.

May I ask why?

Even if you like the atrocious AVP films, which discount the inclusion of all lore established since Prometheus-
What's the rationale behind not including "Predators" then?

It's easy to pick up off after AVPR. All evidence of the xenomorphs is erased so they are still a mystery, but more can be explored with the government trying to learn more about the Predator races.

QuoteSo it's definitive then... There's two timelines/universes then... Always nice to hear from someone enlightened. I sincerely mean that. Thanks SM.

No worries.

If it was easy to pick off after AVPR they would have done, it was easier to do a quasi reboot of each franchise due to AVP/R's poor quality.

Since it's likely that avp could be referenced even in a minute way in The Predator, does anyone care to take bets on whether or not an xeno easter egg might make it into the film? I'm not talking p2 sized stuff like a skull, but maybe something small. Maybe "raptus" displayed on a computer in the background somewhere.

Surely they wouldn't pull a "fallen kingdom" with the sunken queen from avp? Nah, too big. But that I'd like to see. Maybe just a frozen claw or something behind glass. Odds are against any reference though.

Quote from: The Old One on Aug 25, 2018, 09:52:05 PM

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Aug 25, 2018, 09:23:06 PM

An AVP continuity which counts only the first two Predator films, and leads into the Alien films but not the prequels.

May I ask why?

Even if you like the atrocious AVP films, which discount the inclusion of all lore established since Prometheus-
What's the rationale behind not including "Predators" then?

Reply #36 at the end of the first paragraph. I guess he just doesn't like Super Predators.

Quote from: The Old One on Aug 25, 2018, 09:52:05 PM
May I ask why?

You may.

Quote from: The Old One on Aug 25, 2018, 09:52:05 PM
Even if you like the atrocious AVP films, which discount the inclusion of all lore established since Prometheus-
What's the rationale behind not including "Predators" then?

Probably the same reason why the other side of the spectrum doesn't want the AVP films lumped with either Alien and Predator.. They didn't like them. It's the inverse here.

I mean... come on... Why lie about it?

Anyway, I've said my peace here on this thread and that's all I have to say about it.

Quote from: Huggs on Aug 25, 2018, 10:11:14 PM
Since it's likely that avp could be referenced even in a minute way in The Predator, does anyone care to take bets on whether or not an xeno easter egg might make it into the film? I'm not talking p2 sized stuff like a skull, but maybe something small. Maybe "raptus" displayed on a computer in the background somewhere.

Surely they wouldn't pull a "fallen kingdom" with the sunken queen from avp? Nah, too big. But that I'd like to see. Maybe just a frozen claw or something behind glass. Odds are against any reference though.

Someone said something about Lex's spear in a preview screening, but there wasn't any confirmation.

Quote from: Huggs on Aug 25, 2018, 10:11:14 PM
Since it's likely that avp could be referenced even in a minute way in The Predator, does anyone care to take bets on whether or not an xeno easter egg might make it into the film? I'm not talking p2 sized stuff like a skull, but maybe something small. Maybe "raptus" displayed on a computer in the background somewhere.

Surely they wouldn't pull a "fallen kingdom" with the sunken queen from avp? Nah, too big. But that I'd like to see. Maybe just a frozen claw or something behind glass. Odds are against any reference though.

How about an ancient artifact (https://i.imgur.com/amSpdKS.jpg)

On the other hand, I would love to see a Deacon's skull in 'The Predator'. You know, for the lulz.

A Neomorph skull could at least exist at the time, so far as we know.

Also, it is the only way (or one of the few for now) to establish a solid link with the Alien timeline. Although it's not like they are having that particular plan right now :P but instead with the AVP concept. But honestly if I were them, I would go for the AVP reboot from the scratch, because:

1. One AVP film is mediocre and the other just horribly bad.

2. The Alien prequels are there, and such movies are canon no matter what.

Quote from: genocyber on Aug 25, 2018, 10:00:56 PM
It's easy to pick up off after AVPR. All evidence of the xenomorphs is erased so they are still a mystery, but more can be explored with the government trying to learn more about the Predator races.

But that means allowing the egg barfing life-cycle to remain.  :P

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Aug 25, 2018, 10:43:05 PM
Also, it is the only way (or one of the few for now) to establish a solid link with the Alien timeline. Although it's not like they have that particular plan anyway  :P but instead with the AVP concept. But honestly if I were them, I would go for the AVP reboot from the scratch, because:

1. One AVP film is mediocre and the other just horribly bad.

2. The Alien prequels are there, and such movies are canon no matter what.

Indeed, but if it was up to me, I would have the new AVP continuity ignore the Alien prequels as well, because David creating the Xenos, as well as other issues I personally think the Prequels brought, affects the tone and mythology of the Alien too much to keep it in.
Have AVP with its own continuity and its own lore for the Xenomorphs, the best part about it is that each continuity would be unique in its setting and lore rather than just a crossover.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 25, 2018, 11:11:04 PM
Indeed, but if it was up to me, I would have the new AVP continuity ignore the Alien prequels as well, because David creating the Xenos, as well as other issues I personally think the Prequels brought, affects the tone and mythology of the Alien too much to keep it in.
Have AVP with its own continuity and its own lore for the Xenomorphs, the best part about it is that each continuity would be unique in its setting and lore rather than just a crossover.

One of the coolest things in that alternate timeline is the return of such cosmic horror of the unknown. The Alien as a primordial horror again and the Space Jockey as a cryptic and kinda surreal living artifact. Having said that, I'd love to see Predators hunting in a Scorn style planet  :)

Btw, I'm aware that the future of our beloved franchises is ambiguous due to the Disney thing. But at the same time, I can't help dreaming in the wildest way. Sorry but just, I can't  :'(

I believe separating them in that manner is ultimately unnecessary.
There's nothing in the Alien prequels that couldn't simply be recontextualised in further entries.

Quote from: RakaiThwei on Aug 25, 2018, 10:12:12 PMProbably the same reason why the other side of the spectrum doesn't want the AVP films lumped with either Alien and Predator.. They didn't like them. It's the inverse here.

I mean... come on... Why lie about it?

Anyway, I've said my peace here on this thread and that's all I have to say about it.

Spoiler

No don't go! But I hear you, in the end it will be people's own opinions on the individual movies that will guide them on what they believe should or shouldn't be included in the franchises. Topics like these can sometimes bring out the most blatant of clinical narcissism on the internet :laugh:

[close]

I wouldn't mind seeing AvP as a distinct entity from Alien and Predator, no true need to have them all live in the same universe, especially with the direction that the two latest Alien prequels took us. Continuity would be nice, but I sort of always approached AvP as its own "thing" anyway. Especially with the lore that was introduced in the first AvP movie...most definitely doesn't match up with what was introduced in the comics way back when.

Quote from: The Old One on Aug 25, 2018, 11:48:16 PM
I believe separating them in that manner is ultimately unnecessary.
There's nothing in the Alien prequels that couldn't simply be recontextualised in further entries.

Maybe but personally I don't think David creating the Xenos leaves a good mythology for a new AVP to build on. As someone said, the Aliens as an ancient race is more interesting, their origin doesn't even need to be explained fully, just hints here and there so that some ambiguity can be maintained.

Covenant`s continuity is the worst what happened to Alien since AVP-R. I breaks what was shown in nerly all alien films. I don`t want such piece of crap acknowleged anywhere. On Alien side of AvP, build up on first four films.

It didn't go against anything shown in the Alien movies. Just the AvP movies.

I did go against ancient space jockey and ship full of  Alien eggs. It did go against how androids were depicted in all Alien films.

No, it went against your assumptions about them.

Which again; can always be recontextualised.

---

That includes David being responsible for the creation of the titular Alien & the SJ and Engineers being one and the same.

Jockey looked entirely different and was fossilized and Androids were not Wolverines with Matrix style combat techniques. This is not my assumption.

Couldnt be fossilized... thats not how fossilization works.

Quote from: 426Buddy on Aug 26, 2018, 01:19:25 PM
Couldnt be fossilized... thats not how fossilization works.

I'm aware.

Quote from: Master on Aug 26, 2018, 01:15:57 PM
Jockey looked entirely different and was fossilized and
Androids were not Wolverines with Matrix style combat techniques. This is not my assumption.

Yes, it is plainly your assumption- android models were never shown in combat roles or taking minor injury in the past.
It's also made plainly clear, from Alien to Aliens, to Resurrection and Prometheus that each model is different.

I don't believe the ships we saw in any of the prequels were the Space Jockey's ship, so the discrepancy is irrelevant for now.
They were never on-screen stated to be the same thing, that's just an assumption for now.

Before you start quoting BTS material statements, R.S also said that the Alien would regenerate and we have no evidence of that either;
Whatever the intention may be, that's not what's onscreen.

How so? We've seen Call geting minor injury and she didnt regenerate shit. She was 200 years more advenced then Dawid. We also seen Ash in close combat. He's head was ripped off by fire extinguisher!

There you have it.

Strike Covenant off the Alien canon record.

Quote from: Master on Aug 26, 2018, 02:13:50 PM
How so?

Call was an Auton, a robot designed by robots, the most human of them all- in mannerisms too.

Yes, we've seen Ash sustain major injury- the same injury that David sustained and neither of them would have been
functional without assistance, David would never have regained control of his body if not for Elizabeth Shaw.
The point is, they're different models and even those in close proximity in terms of time are different.

I'm talking about Walter.

So?

Different model, different capabilities.
Walter's injury to the neck is the most minor of injuries that we've seen androids sustain-
From David's perspective he was cutting the cord that makes Walter run, unaware that Walter-
unlike David has a backup for that particular injury.

Quote from: Master on Aug 26, 2018, 02:13:50 PM
How so? We've seen Call geting minor injury and she didnt regenerate shit. She was 200 years more advenced then Dawid. We also seen Ash in close combat. He's head was ripped off by fire extinguisher!

And just to throw it out there, Ash did seem to be malfunctioning at this point anyway.

Quote from: Master on Aug 26, 2018, 02:13:50 PM
How so? We've seen Call geting minor injury and she didnt regenerate shit. She was 200 years more advenced then Dawid. We also seen Ash in close combat. He's head was ripped off by fire extinguisher!

Getting shot = "minor"?

We don't know if she could regenerate from such a big hole. Way different to Walter. And even then, she wasn't compromised in her abilities. Bishop could obviously regenerate.

Yeah that entry wound was quite messy, its for more difficult to close that wound than a say a tiny hole cause by a flute. I think some of her insides were hanging out a little too.  :laugh:

Yeah, it looked like Ripley did a bit of tinkering in the chapel.

Speaking of androids, I wonder if the combat models would appear in any future films, something similar to what we saw in AVP 2010 I guess. There is something creepy about androids that are humanoid but not quite like human in appearance, such as the working joes. 
It is kind of ironic really. The working joes were marketed as being a product that would make people feel at ease because they would know they are dealing with android, yet the result is the opposite.

If they make more AVP movies, I think they should avoid heavily referencing the earlier films, but they shouldn't actively contradict them either.

I can agree to an extent, I think the AVP movies should be erased but some references to the other movies would be good, if only to world build a little.

They should actively contradict them all they want, especially if it leads to a superior story- they're irrelevant and have been since 2012.

Not contradicting the standalone films is all they have to worry about.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Sep 03, 2018, 02:41:21 PM
I can agree to an extent, I think the AVP movies should be erased

I agree. But then we'll all watch Shane's new movie, and there will be a truck parked on the street with a bumper sticker that reads "Remember Gunnison".  ;)

You don't have to erase them.  Just don't reference them.

Quote from: SM on Sep 04, 2018, 02:56:21 AM
You don't have to erase them.  Just don't reference them.

True. But a nuclear weapon being dropped onto a civilian population in modern times (especially on U.S. soil) would be a world changing event, and no doubt one that would lead to untold political and societal changes. To go through an entire movie and not have any reference to such a thing by any person or organization would feel odd.

It would indeed feel odd, if it happened.

Quote from: Huggs on Sep 04, 2018, 03:17:40 AM

Quote from: SM on Sep 04, 2018, 02:56:21 AM
You don't have to erase them.  Just don't reference them.

True. But a nuclear weapon being dropped onto a civilian population in modern times (especially on U.S. soil) would be a world changing event, and no doubt one that would lead to untold political and societal changes. To go through an entire movie and not have any reference to such a thing by any person or organization would feel odd.

It would be a world changing event - but there's no need to mention it unless it has any relevance to the story.

Perhaps, but it is better if those events didn't happen at all. The Predalien's method of producing is terrible and I really would not want that to be canon in any continuity, nevermind an AVP continuity.

They don't have to repeat or even acknowledge that stuff.  It's neither here nor there.

They don't have to no, but if they don't reference them, some might still think they are connected. It took two movies to put the nail in the coffin that AVP films were no longer canon and that was with Promethues deliberately changing the origin of Weyland Corp. So I kinda think that without pointing out that the movies are not connected, you will get some who will insist they are.

They can insist all they like.

Sometimes it's better to not be definitive about these things.  It stimulates discussion.

True enough but such discussions about continuity and canonicity usually ends up heated. Best to avoid that personally,  but I suppose that is the risk and nature of forums.

True, but any discussion can get heated when people are passionate about something.  Back when I was working on WYR, I had a lot of emails back and forth with the editor and Insight, discussing finer points of info and one concerned the intelligence of the Queen.  I thought it'd been churched up a little too much, and I don't remember what the final outcome was, but he said that sometimes it's better to not be too definite because it can stifle discussion.  And it was the nature of WYR, that we didn't have to be definite.

It was a bit of an eye opener for me, but he was completely correct.  This was licensed material for fans, and fans all have different ideas about stuff and sometimes you don't want to kill those ideas.

I actually noticed that in the tidbits of the WYR that I saw online, a lot of the information is basically regarded as theories of the staff and "ancedotal evidence", making some of it to be left open for further information.

Honestly I never saw the appeal of starting anew and far away from the previous AVP movies. Granted I am aware they have their problems like poor writing or too dark to actually see anything. For me, I see the movies through the lense of lore wise and nothing in the movies contradicted established lore that would cause me to hiss and throw it away. Some people didn't like the Predalien's ability to reproduce but its been stated its how young queens establish a hive quickly, not a Predalien trait only. Plus it adds to the whole parasitic horror of violating the human body via dumping a bunch of bursters into a woman's belly as it eats the growing child.

Its not like for me with the Assassin's Creed lore for example where the newest game coming out is whoring away 10 years of established lore just to follow trendy RPG style by throwing in mythical monsters, swords with fire powers and f**king over the whole concept with genetic memory when the whole thing started as a historical fiction with a good side helping of science fiction, not this fantasy bullshit. If the DNA is so corrupt that we can't tell the gender of the character then its corrupt enough for it to not be readable for reviving at all, its why we can't even clone dinosaurs for f**k sake.

Seriously I am knee deep in both pools of the AVP and AC series and we have it good here compared to my comrades over in the Ubi Pit, its not completely f**ked yet.

It's been suggested it was a PredAlien (may its name be forever cursed) trait taken from Predator reproduction.

The AVP films haven't been canon since 2012, & nor their concepts.

Quote from: SM on Sep 05, 2018, 01:48:09 AM
It's been suggested it was a PredAlien (may its name be forever cursed) trait taken from Predator reproduction.

Or that it's what juvie Queens do.

Or that "It's something you've never seen before so you should like it" (thanks, Crom!)

Or that "It's something I'd never seen before and when I did see it I wish I'd never seen it".

(https://mygeekblasphemy.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/samneil7.jpg)

Ah, the Predalien. Loved the idea, not so much the final look. As for that rapid impregnation thing, don't knock the guy just because he can deliver on demand.  ;)

Quote from: Mr.Turok on Sep 05, 2018, 01:28:14 AM
Honestly I never saw the appeal of starting anew and far away from the previous AVP movies. Granted I am aware they have their problems like poor writing or too dark to actually see anything. For me, I see the movies through the lense of lore wise and nothing in the movies contradicted established lore that would cause me to hiss and throw it away. Some people didn't like the Predalien's ability to reproduce but its been stated its how young queens establish a hive quickly, not a Predalien trait only. Plus it adds to the whole parasitic horror of violating the human body via dumping a bunch of bursters into a woman's belly as it eats the growing child.

I know it is supposed to be something young queens do but that new concept was just bogus, plus it made huggers and even eggs borderline pointless since they can deposit what? 4 to 5 embryos into a host. Another thing that doesn't make sense since Aliens take traits from the host, there is no way those five embryos are going to use that dna reflex from the stomach, the whole reason they gain traits is because that grown from the host body, which wouldn't happen if actual embryos where inserted into the host.

Quote from: SM on Sep 05, 2018, 05:06:15 AM
Or that "It's something I'd never seen before and when I did see it I wish I'd never seen it".

https://mygeekblasphemy.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/samneil7.jpg

You don't need eyes to see.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Sep 05, 2018, 09:31:20 AM

I know it is supposed to be something young queens do but that new concept was just bogus, plus it made huggers and even eggs borderline pointless since they can deposit what? 4 to 5 embryos into a host. Another thing that doesn't make sense since Aliens take traits from the host, there is no way those five embryos are going to use that dna reflex from the stomach, the whole reason they gain traits is because that grown from the host body, which wouldn't happen if actual embryos where inserted into the host.

From what I constructed, the young queens are the right size to do mouth to mouth impregnation. When fully matured, not only is she too big to do the process but the hive's numbers have swelled in numbers by that point already so adaptation kicks in for her to lay eggs instead her smaller minions can just bring all the hosts to her now.

As for the DNA Reflex, I figured for the same manner that the backbursters and chestburster all go by, as it goes in the wiki: 

Quotethat no actual embryo is inserted into the host. Instead, the infant Xenomorph begins its life as a knot of specifically tailored cancers that bring about chemogenetic restructuring of the host's cells, essentially "building" the Chestburster from the host's own biological material at a cellular level.

A human baby in there is just more DNA/Food for it as I recall in the behind the scenes extra of AVPR.

Quote from: SM on Sep 05, 2018, 05:06:15 AM
Or that "It's something I'd never seen before and when I did see it I wish I'd never seen it".

https://mygeekblasphemy.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/samneil7.jpg

Wonder what would happen if you threw a xenomorph in there, into the portal, like will it go mad or stay the same?

Don't defend AVPR.

BTW I don't know any AC fanatics that care about the storyline after what happened to Desmond Miles or Ezio.
Most are genuinely refreshed and interested in the changes of Origins and Odyssey.
Bring on the monsters, f**k the Animus.

Quote
Wonder what would happen if you threw a xenomorph in there, into the portal, like will it go mad or stay the same?

The holes in the skull would be sealed up.  :)

Quote from: Mr.Turok on Sep 05, 2018, 07:26:44 PM
As for the DNA Reflex, I figured for the same manner that the backbursters and chestburster all go by, as it goes in the wiki: 

Quotethat no actual embryo is inserted into the host. Instead, the infant Xenomorph begins its life as a knot of specifically tailored cancers that bring about chemogenetic restructuring of the host's cells, essentially "building" the Chestburster from the host's own biological material at a cellular level.

A human baby in there is just more DNA/Food for it as I recall in the behind the scenes extra of AVPR.

Except we clearly see the Predalien depositing something physically solid and big in the host, an embryo and it is going into their stomach, a place where they can't feed and grow in the host via an umbilical.

Both the chestbursters and backbursters are grown from the body, they have umbilical cords and even an amniotic sac in the case of chestbursters.

Quote from: The Old One on Sep 05, 2018, 07:34:44 PM
Don't defend AVPR.

He does have a right too if he wants to but regardless, it is an event that I would not like to see continued in any form, salvage some concepts and weapons if need be but keep the damn events of movie and silly new lore away from a new AVP film.

Quote from: The Old One on Sep 05, 2018, 07:34:44 PM
Don't defend AVPR.

Lawl

Quote from: The Old One on Sep 05, 2018, 07:34:44 PM
BTW I don't know any AC fanatics that care about the storyline after what happened to Desmond Miles or Ezio.
Most are genuinely refreshed and interested in the changes of Origins and Odyssey.
Bring on the monsters, f**k the Animus.

I'm a just say this real quick since its a avp thread that i don't wanna accidently take over. I have swam neck deep in the AC fandom since 2009 and I will say that Odyssey created a civil war between new and old lore gen fans who either care or don't care about the series lore and characters. People was open to Origins as it had potential to go to somewhere good but with the reveal of Odyssey, things went f**kin to the shit. It got ugly super quickly that as much as we had problems with Prometheus, Covenant and AVPR, it will never been in such an extreme as I had to witness. f**k I admit what I was Team Lore and went bezerk myself cuz now its completely f**ked. If they wanted monsters, than make a new IP, otherwise whats the point of the Animus and the established whole point of the series.

Quote from: SM on Sep 05, 2018, 08:31:46 PM
The holes in the skull would be sealed up.  :)

Thought of an alien gone lame. Poor bastard would bump into everything, sterile and docile but with bare motor functions.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Sep 05, 2018, 11:28:14 PM
Except we clearly see the Predalien depositing something physically solid and big in the host, an embryo and it is going into their stomach, a place where they can't feed and grow in the host via an umbilical.

Eeehhhh just write it off as huge thick neck muscles that make it look like its pushing something huge lol.

Plus the DNA Reflex already said that its not an embryo, its some kind of seed that grows everything by absorbing the hosts DNA, including an umbilical that will do the absorbing.

QuoteThis complex process involves the absorption of organic material from the host, which is then broken down at a molecular level and rearranged into new compounds. Carbon units are disassociated and recombined into crystal lattices, which are used in the formation of the Xenomorph's hard body structures.Freed H+ ions are combined with surplus sulphate (SO42-) and nitrate (NO3-) groups to form the basis of the creature's highly acidic blood. As a side-effect of this unique process of development, Xenomorph genetic material is passed to the host as well as vice versa, and it is this trait that allowed the scientists aboard the USM Auriga to clone the Queen gestating inside of Ripley 8 as well as Ripley 8 herself.

The manner in which the Chestburster develops from the host's genetic material means that the host's characteristics will in turn dictate, to an extent, the Xenomorph's physical features — embryos are thought to copy 10-15% of the host's genetic code in a process dubbed the "DNA Reflex". This genetic absorption is designed to help Xenomorphs adapt to the environment in which they are born, and also helps the developing creature to "hide" from the host organism's immune system

Going further with that, its much more logical to be in a stomach rather than the back or chest. Parasites today either infect the heart, intestines, liver, or stomach as that's where the rich blood, liquids, and food is.

Quote from: Mr.Turok on Sep 06, 2018, 03:29:36 AM
Eeehhhh just write it off as huge thick neck muscles that make it look like its pushing something huge lol.

No.

QuotePlus the DNA Reflex already said that its not an embryo, its some kind of seed that grows everything by absorbing the hosts DNA, including an umbilical that will do the absorbing.

I already know that but the problem is that the Predalien is inserting actual embryos, also they cannot form an umbilical in the stomach.

QuoteGoing further with that, its much more logical to be in a stomach rather than the back or chest. Parasites today either infect the heart, intestines, liver, or stomach as that's where the rich blood, liquids, and food is.

Except information on Chesbursters show that they are attached to the heart as well as possibly some other organs via an umbilical, which means they would have to be outside the stomach, the body itself grows them. Which means no embryo is deposited, so AVPR can kiss itself goodbye as far as I am concerned.  :P

Are they attached to the heart?

Quote from: SM on Sep 05, 2018, 08:31:46 PM

Quote
Wonder what would happen if you threw a xenomorph in there, into the portal, like will it go mad or stay the same?

The holes in the skull would be sealed up.  :)

I support this.

Quote from: SM on Sep 06, 2018, 01:53:53 PM
Are they attached to the heart?

I think they are attached to the aorta artery I believe...or at least that is what I read somewhere  :P
Hmm I am curious myself now where I read that too. 
Some digging is required.  :laugh:

It's definitely attached as seen in Resurrection.  What they're connected to - not sure.

In the A3 BTS CT-scan the Queen Chestburster is right next to the heart, but don't believe it's attached.

Embryo performes some kind of neovascularysation and creates new vasels, like tumor, in order to feed and grow. When it ripps you apart from inside, you die from trauma, pain and blood loss. It doesn't have to be attached to your heart (stupid as hell).

It may be.

Why would it be stupid?

It would cause immidiate hear failure and death. Also Alien:Ressurection.

Why?  Also - why?

Because the anatomy of heart

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Blausen_0724_PericardialSac.png/250px-Blausen_0724_PericardialSac.png)

Baceuse when chestburster was removed they didn't drag the heart with it.

The umbilical cords either detach prior to birth, or rip during birth  if they were attached.  What with them being so tiny.

In Resurrection, Gedimen cuts the cord with a scalpel, so nothing but the chestburster was removed.
Normally I think they just either detach or disolve, AVP eternity said something about that I believe.

Quote from: SM on Sep 07, 2018, 09:32:02 AM
The umbilical cords detach prior to birth.  Plus as seen in Resurrection, the cords are so tiny and would rip during birth even if they were attached.

Human or Alien? Umbilical is attached to placenta and with humans it's cut after birth to minimise blood lose of mother and newborn.

Anything attached to heart owuld puncture pericardium, cause traction to the heart leading to heart failure and death.

Here is this little tidbit from that comic "The embryos ceased metabolizing their hosts's body fat forty-five minutes ago. The connective tissues and vessels by which they accessed intercostal and bronchial arteries to feed has dissolved."

QuoteHuman or Alien?

Alien.  Obviously.

Cool and all, they can be attached in many verious places but hear isn't one of them for reasons stated above.

I don't find any of those reasons convincing.

Something growing out of the pericardium wouldn't inherently cause heart failure and death. It's not like the burster is stabbing a straw through the thing.

Quote from: Master on Sep 07, 2018, 09:39:19 AM

Quote from: SM on Sep 07, 2018, 09:32:02 AM
The umbilical cords detach prior to birth.  Plus as seen in Resurrection, the cords are so tiny and would rip during birth even if they were attached.

Human or Alien? Umbilical is attached to placenta and with humans it's cut after birth to minimise blood lose of mother and newborn.

Anything attached to heart owuld puncture pericardium, cause traction to the heart leading to heart failure and death.

Idk about puncturing per se, but the pressure against the heart would likely cause issues related to blood flow and oxygenation, resulting in compensatory mechanisms to be set off (hypo/hypertension, fluid retention, etc.) that lead to unsavory states such as cardiac tamponade, heart failure, heart attack, stroke, etc.  Even if the attaching fibers were small, anything foreign attaching itself to the pericardium would probably at the least lead to pericarditis.  Medically I find it hard to make sense out of it... But then again, it is fiction  :laugh:

Resurrection is suspect too; let's not forget.

Quote from: Wysps on Sep 07, 2018, 03:20:10 PM
Medically I find it hard to make sense out of it... But then again, it is fiction  :laugh:

Just consider it cancer with teeth.

Quote from: SiL on Sep 07, 2018, 01:07:52 PM
Something growing out of the pericardium wouldn't inherently cause heart failure and death. It's not like the burster is stabbing a straw through the thing.

Not out of pericardium, out of heart. But also why bother? There are so many nearby places to get your tumor-like neovascularisation.

Quote from: Wysps on Sep 07, 2018, 03:20:10 PM

Quote from: Master on Sep 07, 2018, 09:39:19 AM

Quote from: SM on Sep 07, 2018, 09:32:02 AM
The umbilical cords detach prior to birth.  Plus as seen in Resurrection, the cords are so tiny and would rip during birth even if they were attached.

Human or Alien? Umbilical is attached to placenta and with humans it's cut after birth to minimise blood lose of mother and newborn.

Anything attached to heart owuld puncture pericardium, cause traction to the heart leading to heart failure and death.

Idk about puncturing per se, but the pressure against the heart would likely cause issues related to blood flow and oxygenation, resulting in compensatory mechanisms to be set off (hypo/hypertension, fluid retention, etc.) that lead to unsavory states such as cardiac tamponade, heart failure, heart attack, stroke, etc.  Even if the attaching fibers were small, anything foreign attaching itself to the pericardium would probably at the least lead to pericarditis.  Medically I find it hard to make sense out of it... But then again, it is fiction  :laugh:

It overgrow one of lungs. It's not like you need both to live and there is plenty of room to  hide there. That would also explain why Purvis had to stop to catch his breath.

After doing some digging myself, there is just many versions to how they gestate that there is no real rooted canon to this so it can be either or apparently. Some material shows that you can remove it via surgery while other sources says that it kills the body once removed since it releases some kind of acid that infects the entire body that causes it to shutdown and die.

At this point, at least for me I can see the belly bursting as a thing until real hardcore canon material solidifies this issue.

Real "hardcore" canon material says it's not.

Which would be The Cold Forge, David's Drawings, Isolation and the films.

Quote from: Mr.Turok on Sep 08, 2018, 03:02:50 AM
After doing some digging myself, there is just many versions to how they gestate that there is no real rooted canon to this so it can be either or apparently. Some material shows that you can remove it via surgery while other sources says that it kills the body once removed since it releases some kind of acid that infects the entire body that causes it to shutdown and die.

At this point, at least for me I can see the belly bursting as a thing until real hardcore canon material solidifies this issue.

The sources that actually count indicate that it sits in between the heart and right hand lung, and when it's still developing it's physically attached to the host and later it's not.

Yep. The defiance comic also showed the chestburster to be in kind of amniotic sac as well, so it is like a twisted version of natural pregancy as the body grows it and feeds it while it is attached via an umbilical, The cold forge mentions that hosts become iron deficient I think, I know one scientist says to Dorian about them taking the iron from the blood.

Resurrection showed a sac of sorts when the Queen is removed.

Covenant as well, the chestburster bursts out of some sort of sac when emerging from Oram.

If they would make both creatures on equal terms, I'm for another one. I cannot see that, though.
The Aliens are pets, favorite toys. The Grid Alien is the only one where you get the assumption that both creatures can kill each other 1vs1.
I presume the fandom just wants another Predator movie with Xenos ready to be slaughtered. I don't need that.

Quote from: Stompy the Perfect Xeno on Oct 10, 2018, 12:18:26 PM
I presume the fandom just wants another Predator movie with Xenos ready to be slaughtered. I don't need that.

No offence dude but you are seriously misreading the fandom if you think that, there is a lot of folk on here that is upset because the Aliens were cannon fodder in the last AVP movie, very few fans would want such a one-side fight. Just read the forums and you will realise that a lot of fans want a proper equal fight.

Yeah?
That's good to know, then. Maybe I read too much ytube comments.

You shouldn't read any Youtube comments.

Yeah, that's a really good policy.

This movies could be bigger it would be more ACTION and MORE PG-13.

Like a SUPERHERO movie. ALIEN VERSUS PREDATOR in a Huge budget.

Quote from: CristianoRonaldo7 on Oct 16, 2018, 01:11:18 AM
This movies could be bigger it would be more ACTION and MORE PG-13.

Like a SUPERHERO movie. ALIEN VERSUS PREDATOR in a Huge budget.

I'd probably agree that an AVP movie would more appropriately warrant a large scale budget as opposed to a regular Predator movie. Many of the stories take place during the space colonization era and the Alien infestations in AVP typically happen on worlds and are expansive - the threat of colonized planets being overrun, not small isolated incidents on ships or uninhabited planets. A lot of the stories are so large scale compared to Predator, a big budget is probably what they need... (though my hopes of that happening are slim to none.)

No film future then.

Maybe in videogames again though.

Seems like the most practical direction for the future, in any event.

Personally I don't believe in the franchises crossing over in film. EU is fair game though in my opinion.

I would love to see an AVP film done right though. But I'd also be happy with a game or anthology novel for the moment.

Games #1.

It's definitely worked better in the other mediums but I still hope to God we'll get a good AvP film one day. I genuinely think they do it.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Oct 18, 2018, 12:03:01 PM
It's definitely worked better in the other mediums but I still hope to God we'll get a good AvP film one day. I genuinely think they do it.

With Disney being in charge (presuming they don't end up permanently shelving both series) I could see it honestly happening as well.

Me too.  I actually think it has a decent shot under Disney (they've been doing large-scale, expansive films well in recent years).  In any event, I'd be willing to wait longer for a decent film rather than rushing to push something out sooner.

Marvel? Yes.

Disney? No.

Long as its aimed at the right audience, I would rather not have a pg-13, marvel like movie or a self aware (also marvel like movie) parody that was r rated.

I know film making is not easy, not by a longshot since there is so many obstacles to overcome (such as an interfering studio) but surely it is easy to find a concept or formula that works and stick to it, don't fix what's not broken. Also don't ever pander to the wider audience because that is just greedy, Alien/Aliens and Predator proved you can get a large fanbase on a r-rating and nice profit from that.

I need to stop drinking.

....but I won't.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Oct 18, 2018, 12:03:01 PM
It's definitely worked better in the other mediums but I still hope to God we'll get a good AvP film one day. I genuinely think they do it.

If they had a good concept I'd be all for it. A bad Alien or Predator film is a huge kick in the guts for us because we know the franchise is on the edge as it is.

Quote from: Huntsman on Oct 24, 2018, 12:20:05 PM
A bad Alien or Predator film is a huge kick in the guts

The last two aimed lower...and hit.

Quote from: Huggs on Oct 25, 2018, 03:52:36 AM

Quote from: Huntsman on Oct 24, 2018, 12:20:05 PM
A bad Alien or Predator film is a huge kick in the guts

The last two aimed lower...and hit.

:-[

I can agree with that, while I enjoyed covenant, it is definitely not the film I wanted to see and Predators was a joke, I had some enjoyment out of that but it was too much "resurrection" for my tastes.
When you got two films like that, it makes you wonder where do they go from there, I want to see Ridley finish the trilogy since I hate things lacking resolution but I am not sure what is going to happen for Predator.

When I went to watch it, there was like only 5-7 peeps in the theatre  :laugh:

I think in order for an AVP film concept to become viable again is for everything to go right in the next intallment of the medias, from books, comics to games and individual films.

I think the 'AvP' movies are more or less their own separate Universe, now. 

I'd be happy to see another movie made in that established Universe.  There's a cool starting point to bring a 3rd movie into production and that's with the Queen emerging from the ocean to take up residence on the mainlaind of a populated country and it starts a hive under a large metropolis. 

It's obvious the movie would have to be cheaply made to be a success.  Throw too much money at it and it becomes a big risk.  Low budget action movie with Aliens in a big city is a great way to conclude this current series.  As I envision such a movie to be influenced heavily by 'THEM!', which was all desert and drain pipes, that shouldn't be a problem.

Yeah.  I'd love to see an 'AvP' movie along those lines.  Then be done with it.  One last underground battle with Aliens and troops in jeeps with a Predator thrown in for good measure.  Go watch 'THEM!'.  It's basically 'ALIENS on Earth', anyway.  Update that scenario.  I'm good with that.

-Windebieste.

Quote from: windebieste on Oct 25, 2018, 10:07:13 PMI think the 'AvP' movies are more or less their own separate Universe, now.

According to Wikipedia they have a seperate page called "The AVP franchise" and even designated the original Paul W S Anderson AVP logo as the "franchises" identity seperate from ALIEN, PREDATOR.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/23/Alien_vs_predator_logo.jpg/465px-Alien_vs_predator_logo.jpg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_vs._Predator

Not sure who sanctioned this or felt they had a position of authority to declare it.

As far as your "THEM!" idea for ALIENS VS PREDATOR 3 I just don't buy it.

Imo this is why I disliked the "plot/setting" for AVP and AVP-R. It inferred the PREDATOR had the Xenomorphs under control. Whereas ALIENS- BOOK ONE (comic graphic novel) by Mark Verheiden was more accurate in the implications of ALIENS on earth.

Also it pissed on the whole point of the Ellen Ripley fears of a Xenomorph getting to Earth and wiping out civilisation. And we know escape ships wouldn't be the answer leaving an infected planet as ALIEN attested.
As littlejimmy said in his AVP (2004) review saying "(In AVP-2004) ALIENS have been depicted being on earth for thousands of years and nothing bad ever came of it". So it makes the whole actions of Ripley (including sacrificing herself in ALIEN 3) seem pointless.
Heck Sigourney Weaver admitted she made ALIEN 3 for two reasons
a- she didn't want ALIENS on a futuristic Blade Runner style Earth setting, claiming it would be boring.
b- she absolutely hated the idea of PREDATOR in an ALIEN movie.

Considering 20th Century Fox had designs on both (proved by News articles I still have in my ALIENS UK magazine) it all makes sense now.

Rather than keeping the plot and setting down. Just make it in a far corner of futuristic space, seperate company from Weyland.

'Nothing bad ever came of it' because the Predators contained the infestations.

Accepting that thousands of people wiped out in instant doesn't count as 'bad'...

Quote from: windebieste on Oct 25, 2018, 10:07:13 PM
I think the 'AvP' movies are more or less their own separate Universe, now. 

-Windebieste.

Yeah, particularly the Strause-verse. It was a dark dream after AVP :)

Strause-verse = Anderson-verse.

AVP-Verse

AVP + AVPR + AVP 2010

Quote from: The Old One on Oct 28, 2018, 11:04:45 PM
AVP-Verse

AVP + AVPR + AVP 2010

God, how I hated the heavily used AvP designs in that game...

The Alien designs were not too bad in 2010, they were not accurate to Cameron's but were at least more biomechanical than the ones in the AVP movies. Which is better than nothing. I hated how weak they were in some areas though, physically they should have been the toughest, but you can get knocked on your ass by a marine with a gunbutt.. Their posture isn't very intimidating either.

I enjoyed them,  it's a very gaunt design, very biomechanical design but also clearly proportionally influenced by the further angular design work of ADI on Resurrection, AVP and AVPR.

Applied to AVP 2010's
versions of the Aliens design, Alien³ design and the PredAlien.

I think perhaps we'll get a full universe reboot only using the films as the main source material perhaps even abandoning Resurrection and the Prequel Trilogy, while drawing from other material for ideas but vacating anything interesting, as happened with another newly acquired popular property. But hopefully we'll get a final prequel and soft reboot at once, Alien and Predator returned to their former glory, but the nostalgic formula's promise of guaranteed success no longer works completely.

People recognize it now and hopefully such a fact leads to more intelligent decision making overall apart from one last big budget film to get everyone onboard again with the Alien universe, restoring the story of the Alien and Pilot, whilst finishing the David and the Engineer story. Every other Alien film with medium sized budgets, every other Predator film with medium sized budgets, and AVP as your large event film every so often.

Reboot would be preferable to a sequel to the AVP films, I personally don't want those continuity messes carried forward and cemented in canon, The Predator already references them which is bad enough.

I side with the reboot; it's pretty evident that their version of AVP for the films wasn't going in a particularly popular or sustainable direction. Not unless a serious time skip were involved, which would allow the universe to be built around the left behind tech. But meh, I'd rather see a time skip like in Concrete Jungle than one based around the "suit". Reboot seems like a safe choice...

When it comes to AVP, I'm all for a reboot.

It's the only viable option really. I think AvP as a film brand is tainted by both of them. I know they have their fans (I like the original occasionally), but they're not very well received. It needs a reboot, placing itself more in the same frame as the comic and the games tended to.

It doesn't need a reboot so much as a film that neither acknowledges nor discounts the originals.

Quote from: SM on Mar 23, 2020, 07:45:33 PM
It doesn't need a reboot so much as a film that neither acknowledges nor discounts the originals.

Yeah. I never saw the AVP series as being heavily reliant on continuity. The individual franchises, sure, and YMMV on whether we need reboots there, but with AVP... Just make another one. It's been near enough 13 years, I think enough time has past that most people have forgotten or moved on. Hell I was a teenager, i'm now in my 30s.

Point of fact, one of the things that made AVP so successful in the comics, aside of a really good first outing, was the pliability of the concept. You can set it anywhere, do so many different varied things with it.

If I had the keys, i'd just make an animated movie out of the original comic. Plain and simple.

Quote from: SM on Mar 23, 2020, 07:45:33 PM
It doesn't need a reboot so much as a film that neither acknowledges nor discounts the originals.

Ignoring is not a bad idea but by creating ambiguity like that, neither discounting or acknowledging, a lot of canon wars can arise because there is no definite path.
But I would take that over a direct sequel or any other references to the two avps.