Why can't Fox go back to Avpr and fix the lighting of the whole movie to look more like the trailers so we can see everything and then release a new Blu-ray of the film. Call it Avpr 2.0 or something. I never understood why they haven't done that to this day. The movie will of course still be shitty, but at least we can finally see and enjoy the AVP action in it.
You answered your own question.
"The movie will of course
still be shitty."
It's not worth the investment,
if it didn't happen in 2017
it never will.
Because it costs money and the directors were happy with the final colour grade.
^
They got my $7.99 Tuesday money on release week.
Once again, I guess I lucked out with my bluray. I can see everything.
And where's Local? I figured he'd be in here yelling about Dutch Angles.
It's still way darker than the trailers.
Jeez not any other "my copy has doesnt have the darkness issue".
The bluray is still dark af. :P
Quote from: 426Buddy on Dec 29, 2018, 12:49:37 PM
Jeez not any other "my copy has doesnt have the darkness issue".
The bluray is still dark af. :P
Jealous?
Sorry, I'm with Huggsy. Darkness is no longer an issue with my unrated blu-ray on my HD television. Here's some screenshots I made of Wolf throwing the Shurikens.
(https://i.ibb.co/64715wd/IMG-20181213-084533.jpg)
The movie is MUCH more enjoyable now that I can see what's going on.
All the AVPR Blu-rays have the same video encoding,
which is superior to the DVD in detail and subsequently in lighting.
But all the Blu-rays are the same,
aside from the branching issue not present in 2015+ discs.
One's tv might ultimately be the deciding factor here.
Probable.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 29, 2018, 04:12:53 PM
One's tv might ultimately be the deciding factor here.
QLED vs OLED.
Phased Plasma vs Pulsed Caseless
Well my DVD and Digital Download on this TV is often frustratingly too dark to see, so there must have been some sort of correction with the blu-ray version in comparison to those formats.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 29, 2018, 04:00:13 PM
Sorry, I'm with Huggsy. Darkness is no longer an issue with my unrated blu-ray on my HD television. Here's some screenshots I made of Wolf throwing the Shurikens.
(https://i.ibb.co/64715wd/IMG-20181213-084533.jpg)
The movie is MUCH more enjoyable now that I can see what's going on.
I think it also comes down to personal preference related to how much darkness is actually acceptable in a movie. Personally, I'd still consider those pictures to be too dark for my taste.
Quote from: Wysps on Dec 29, 2018, 05:40:20 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 29, 2018, 04:00:13 PM
Sorry, I'm with Huggsy. Darkness is no longer an issue with my unrated blu-ray on my HD television. Here's some screenshots I made of Wolf throwing the Shurikens.
(https://i.ibb.co/64715wd/IMG-20181213-084533.jpg)
The movie is MUCH more enjoyable now that I can see what's going on.
I think it also comes down to personal preference related to how much darkness is actually acceptable in a movie. Personally, I'd still consider those pictures to be too dark for my taste.
Could be. :) I'm all for dark & scary myself.
But in comparison, my DVD version of that very scene, all I could see was a silhouette of the Predator and couldn't see the Shurikens in his hands at all.
Looks like they just lifted the gamma a bit. Same shit grade, just slightly boosted.
Still. Dark.
Keep trying
Hey ever since the blu-ray unrated version, AVPR is better than both Alien Resurrection and The Predator, and Coke is better than Pepsi.
It's still the worst film.
In every respect.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 04:42:53 AM
It's still the worst film.
Not anymore. The Predator makes the AVP movies look like Amadeus and Saving Private Ryan.
Christ no. If they'd gone with the Ripley ending, maybe. But The Predator at least features some competent filmmaking.
As clearly as this wine is in my fingers, AvPR is better. It's the age of AVPR!
Quote from: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 04:50:59 AM
The Predator at least features some competent filmmaking.
Credits don't count.
Oh yeah! Count don't credits!
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 05:11:09 AM
Oh yeah! Count don't credits!
How many fingers am I holding up?
Crikey, he's smashed.
AvPR is the worst
8)
I feel a new poll coming on!
AVPR is still the worst, The Predator at least has better characters even if they are little over the top in some respects.
Quote from: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 05:25:14 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 05:11:09 AM
Oh yeah! Count don't credits!
How many fingers am I holding up?
Crikey, he's smashed.
I almost fell for it, too.
The reasons for the dark picture are a well tread topic on these forums.
People saying "Blu-Ray" is better does not address that yes indeed the Trailers had better lighting and colour contrast where you can see what is going on.
I think if 20th Century Fox did a "corrected" DVD/Blu ray it would infer they knowingly put out a defective product despite multiple 1 star Amazon reviews that likened the picture to a dodgy VHS Pirate Copy.
Not sure if anyone outside of AVPG would care and yep for 20th Century Fox they know
- It costs money
- Not interested in remastering AVP-R either single release or boxsets since new installments follow different timeline and canon now
I just realized how much the trailer spoiled the movie, :laugh: Though since the trailer pretty much gives most of movie away, maybe people are better of watching the trailer than the movie.
Yeah, just remembered how bad the trailer is.
It gives away most of the kills and even the outcome of the Wolf/Chet duel.
Guess they really wanted to show off the R-rating after AVP's bloodlessness.
You guys want gore? Here you got gore. Look at all those kills.
Pretty sure they went so far as to say the title "Requiem" came from them wanting to emphasise that the film was R rated, by being able to make the abbreviation AvP-R.
Not even joking.
I would believe that without a doubt :D
In retrospective the title fits pretty well though, as the movie put an end to the franchise in movie form for quite some time now.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 31, 2019, 12:18:17 PM
Pretty sure they went so far as to say the title "Requiem" came from them wanting to emphasise that the film was R rated, by being able to make the abbreviation AvP-R.
Not even joking.
They said it at a convention or something. I think it's in the news archives somewhere.
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=7915.msg138139#msg138139
Quote from: El Diablo on Nov 05, 2007, 02:33:04 AM
I just got back from the convention.
The only footage that was shown was the red band trailer followed by the scene that I described in my original post. The Predalien looks pretty good on film and she definitely appears to be more powerful than the other Aliens. Her tail is strong enough to send the Predator crashing through a wall with one swipe. One other thing I noticed was that she appears to be a different color than the rest of the Aliens in thermal vision (she appears yellow while the rest are green). Small detail but I thought you guys might find it interesting.
A Q&A session followed after the screening of the footage. Colin and Greg appeared on stage with a moderator who worked for 20th Century Fox's publicity department. They discussed the making of the film for a good thirty to forty minutes.
Here's some of the highlights:
- The Fox moderator admitted that the film wasn't really meant to have the subtitle "REQUIEM" and that AVP-R really stood for the "R" rating.
Nothin' wrong with my memory ;D
Maybe I should do that book on the AvP films I've been thinking of. They (perhaps deservedly) don't get much love in the BTS department.
I'm sure Zee Strauses would be right on board to talk to you.
Isn't there a BTS video of one of the camera men complaining that he can't see anything because its dark?
Quote from: SM on Jan 31, 2019, 02:14:12 PM
I'm sure Zee Strauses would be right on board to talk to you.
I have Crom's email at least.
Prolly get better answers. ;D
Now if I can just get in touch with Anderson I'll be set ;D
Anderson was supposed to come back for AvP 2 right? Was he just too busy?
I assumed after the reaction from AVP, they didn't want him back. I remember hearing that before AVP's release there was plans for a possible sequel to have Lex back, but that after the negative reaction to the pred-human teamup, that was changed.
The script mentions "Lex Will Return in AvP: Annihilation."
I doubt it was the team up specifically so much as the overall lacklustre response -- but it's never actually been made known why he didn't return.
"Annihilation." That title would fit better on the EU.
Didn't help that Anderson just used it for Resident Evil that year as well :D
EDIT
Derp, that was Apocalypse.
Still, more fitting for those films than AvP.
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Jan 31, 2019, 02:16:36 PM
Isn't there a BTS video of one of the camera men complaining that he can't see anything because its dark?
Yep, and someone telling him to shut up or something.
There are two videos of people complaining about the lighting:
When they film the Alien bursting through the window. That's the Director of Photography saying the batteries in the torch need to be replaced because it's now too weak.
When filming the rooftop. That's the "shut up" moment.
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 31, 2019, 07:28:30 AM
AVP-CAPCOM's correct.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrTXTb03Ixc
Thank's for linking that.
Yes whoever did the contrast and colour correction for that trailer (providing that might have been how the film looked before the "blackening" process) needs to do that for the entire film.
But as I said
- No-one cares outside of AVPG
- Haven't seen any new releases of AVP-R since Blu-Ray double AVP movie set and they don't fix the core issue of brightness, colour contrast or correction.
Nowt to do with "TV sets", TV settings and I'm not going to screw up my TV colour settings just cause of one movie.
I still like AVP-R though and would rate it higher if they did fix it somehow even if limited download release.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Jan 31, 2019, 11:02:26 PM
I assumed after the reaction from AVP, they didn't want him back. I remember hearing that before AVP's release there was plans for a possible sequel to have Lex back, but that after the negative reaction to the pred-human teamup, that was changed.
Paul W S Anderson said he had no intention of doing an AVP sequel in this interview. You can see hurt and contempt as the interviewer talks the negative feedback against AVP-2004.
Agree with him on the uneven tone of Resurrection at least.
He misses the point of the of the Alien's potential to come to Earth.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 01, 2019, 09:07:50 PM
Agree with him on the uneven tone of Resurrection at least.
He misses the point of the of the Alien's potential to come to Earth.
How does he "miss the point"?
Because the point was, if it gets to Earth we're f**ked.
AVP and AVPR especially,
undercut that fear by saying;
"Nah it's fine, they've been on Earth for hundreds of years- at least."
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 11:23:36 AM
Because the point was, if it gets to Earth we're f**ked.
AVP and AVPR especially,
undercut that fear by saying;
"Nah it's fine, they've been on Earth for hundreds of years- at least."
So? I mean people have been longing to see Aliens on Earth ever since the original films, and the Aliens on Antarctica had been kept in check by the Predators (and the situations weren't "fine" by any means), and the entire point about the
AVP films was to show the danger of Aliens on Earth and why they should never be allowed to return and at the same time tempting the early iterations of the Weyland-Yutani Corporation to go looking for these creatures again. I don't feel like your complaint makes any real sense.
It makes sense in that it undermines four movies of Ripley trying to stop them getting to Earth.
That said, is 20 months a record for a response?
Quote from: SM on Oct 31, 2020, 01:08:02 PM
It makes sense in that it undermines four movies of Ripley trying to stop them getting to Earth.
That said, is 20 months a record for a response?
That makes no sense. Please explain what the problem is supposed to be. How does it "undermine" Ripley trying to stop them from getting to Earth? They're not on Earth by the time Ripley's journey gets going, as all the Aliens that were on Earth were exterminated in 2004 (and the Alien Queen that remained alive lies frozen on the bottom of the Antarctic ocean). What is the problem?
The problem is that the AvP films treat Aliens on earth as easily solvable, thus undermining Ripley's fear of what would happen if they did get to the planet. According to AvP films, the answer to "what would happen if just one of them got to earth" is "not much".
Quote from: SiL on Oct 31, 2020, 01:48:14 PM
The problem is that the AvP films treat Aliens on earth as easily solvable, thus undermining Ripley's fear of what would happen if they did get to the planet. According to AvP films, the answer to "what would happen if just one of them got to earth" is "not much".
It's not any more or less solvable than was portrayed in the four
Alien films (at least you could admit as much), and they were only exterminated because the hives in each of the two films were in their early stages and limited to a small location and both were taken out by a nuclear explosion before they had grown beyond the point of no return, but each time they were lucky to have the circumstances in their favor and they dealt with the problem just in time (just like in the four
Alien films). It's never guaranteed victory for the humans, and just one of them successfully reaching Earth could still very much spell doom for life on the planet. I mean look at your logic here, you're essentially arguing that (1) because we successfully eliminated them at just the right time in the past (2) therefore we have guaranteed victory if they return. Any sane person would recognize that (given what we learned they could do in a short amount of time during the infestations of Antarctica and Gunnison in 2004) Earth is still under threat as long as they are out there, and that especially when the majority of Earth's population have no idea that these creatures even exist. Do you see how silly your complaint is here?
Ripley's point was that it would be doom if "just one" of them got to earth. The AvP films show substantially more than that on the planet twice, and the problem still being solved both times.
Basically the AvP films show there's no overall threat to earth, just shit little towns.
(https://i.ibb.co/42HkN25/4kjcny.jpg)
I have no idea why its so hard to understand lol.
Aliens being on earth means that if just one of those things gets down here then it won't be all and we don't actually have to kiss all that important bullshit goodbye. :laugh:
Actually, I always wondered if one singular Alien actually got to Earth would it be able to conquer the planet ? Wouldn't it be just shot by someone at the spaceport ? I mean, of course it would kill bunch of people but planet-scale Armaggedon ? Idk about that
Quote from: SiL on Oct 31, 2020, 02:44:19 PM
Ripley's point was that it would be doom if "just one" of them got to earth. The AvP films show substantially more than that on the planet twice, and the problem still being solved both times.
Basically the AvP films show there's no overall threat to earth, just shit little towns.
You're being ridiculous. Read my last reply again.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 31, 2020, 03:54:27 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/42HkN25/4kjcny.jpg)
Does that suddenly mean you shouldn't protect Earth anymore? Did we not learn what could happen when the Xenomorphs did escape to the surface in 2004? Should we just risk letting things go full on
Aliens: Earth War just because we defeated them once? Have we not even learned anything from the ending of
Aliens: Earth War for that matter? Is this the attitude we should have whenever we overcome a threat that may return? :o
Quote from: 426Buddy on Oct 31, 2020, 04:20:23 PM
I have no idea why its so hard to understand lol.
Aliens being on earth means that if just one of those things gets down here then it won't be all and we don't actually have to kiss all that important bullshit goodbye. :laugh:
Unless we just kill it off like Ripley did with relative ease four times. It will only be a considerable and irreversible problem if the Xenomorph is somehow allowed to procreate and spread its infestation beyond the point of no return, something which almost happened in 2004 (and which definitely happened in the Earth War storyline). I mean people here are really arguing that "Ripley didn't want the Aliens to land on Earth" rather than arguing that "Ripley wanted to save Earth from Aliens" and so they're arguably not thinking straight here.
Quote from: Kradan on Oct 31, 2020, 05:38:05 PM
Actually, I always wondered if one singular Alien actually got to Earth would it be able to conquer the planet ? Wouldn't it be just shot by someone at the spaceport ? I mean, of course it would kill bunch of people but planet-scale Armaggedon ? Idk about that
Agreed, one or two Xenomorphs won't be difficult to handle unless they are allowed to procreate to a considerable degree.
You seem upset.
That's ironic.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 11:23:36 AM
Because the point was, if it gets to Earth we're f**ked.
AVP and AVPR especially,
undercut that fear by saying;
"Nah it's fine, they've been on Earth for hundreds of years- at least."
Undercutting the fear? I mean not really....like the Queen was in suspended animation, so of course it wouldn't be a
active threat. However it should be killed either way to ever prevent a possible infestation.
I would like to point out though, the movies had shown that the areas it took place were isolated from any mega large civilized areas, hence why the infestation didn't spread out so quickly and even look how quickly the town and the expedition fell in over hours. Had it been a city, shit would have hit the fan so much quicker. Both times, the infestation had to be nuked in order to be stopped, and those infestations were
small in scale. I would imagine in a large city like LA or New York, among the chaos and confusion, the alien population would explode and soon spread out to other areas and start infestations there as well. Meanwhile, LA or NY would be nuked and no one would know if there were any other aliens out there until reports of other areas indicate xeno activity.
Its rather sheer extreme luck that both infestations were isolated and far from large metropolis areas. I mean the panic, chaos, and disbelief of it all will favor the xenos. If people don't wear the mask for the sake of health risk of corona, what makes you think that this kind of behavior will be any better in dealing with xenos?
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 03, 2020, 01:13:26 AM
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 11:23:36 AM
Because the point was, if it gets to Earth we're f**ked.
AVP and AVPR especially,
undercut that fear by saying;
"Nah it's fine, they've been on Earth for hundreds of years- at least."
Undercutting the fear? I mean not really....like the Queen was in suspended animation, so of course it wouldn't be a active threat. However it should be killed either way to ever prevent a possible infestation.
I would like to point out though, the movies had shown that the areas it took place were isolated from any mega large civilized areas, hence why the infestation didn't spread out so quickly and even look how quickly the town and the expedition fell in over hours. Had it been a city, shit would have hit the fan so much quicker. Both times, the infestation had to be nuked in order to be stopped, and those infestations were small in scale. I would imagine in a large city like LA or New York, among the chaos and confusion, the alien population would explode and soon spread out to other areas and start infestations there as well. Meanwhile, LA or NY would be nuked and no one would know if there were any other aliens out there until reports of other areas indicate xeno activity.
Its rather sheer extreme luck that both infestations were isolated and far from large metropolis areas. I mean the panic, chaos, and disbelief of it all will favor the xenos. If people don't wear the mask for the sake of health risk of corona, what makes you think that this kind of behavior will be any better in dealing with xenos?
Thank you!
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 03, 2020, 01:13:26 AM
Undercutting the fear? I mean not really....like the Queen was in suspended animation, so of course it wouldn't be a active threat.
The thousands of Aliens overrunning ancient temples, though. They'd all just race to the three Predators at the top? Pfft.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 03, 2020, 09:58:29 AM
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 03, 2020, 01:13:26 AM
Undercutting the fear? I mean not really....like the Queen was in suspended animation, so of course it wouldn't be a active threat.
The thousands of Aliens overrunning ancient temples, though. They'd all just race to the three Predators at the top? Pfft.
Why would they not? They're a threat to the hive and apparently very skilled hunters killing Xenos left and right.
They're not that skilled if they let the Aliens overrun the entire city like that. How do you f**k up so badly that you let seven Aliens turn into over a thousand?
The only way for that scenario to happen would be if they just took their guns and like ... walked right back out of the temple or something for a few days.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 03, 2020, 10:06:19 AM
They're not that skilled if they let the Aliens overrun the entire city like that. How do you f**k up so badly that you let seven Aliens turn into over a thousand?
The only way for that scenario to happen would be if they just took their guns and like ... walked right back out of the temple or something for a few days.
By skilled I meant skilled at surviving for so long despite such odds. I guess to them they just have to hit reset if things go bad. There's a story for every single hunt that ever occurred on Antarctica, we just don't know yet what happened during that particular hunt. We don't have the context for that final battle like we have the context for the final battle during the 2004 hunt. This is by the way a story I would like to see in a comic or short film maybe.
That scene doesn't take place in Antarctica. Anderson said that the scene is his explanation for why South American civilisations seemed to disappear overnight.
Surviving is about the only thing those Predators could do, because attack clearly isn't in their skillset -- so why would the Aliens care about them?
Quote from: SiL on Nov 03, 2020, 10:21:20 AM
That scene doesn't take place in Antarctica. Anderson said that the scene is his explanation for why South American civilisations seemed to disappear overnight.
Which still didn't quite work for me since weren't they just abandoned cities, not big craters. Oh Anderson.
Oh yeah none of it makes a lick'a god-damned sense.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 03, 2020, 10:21:20 AM
That scene doesn't take place in Antarctica. Anderson said that the scene is his explanation for why South American civilisations seemed to disappear overnight.
Surviving is about the only thing those Predators could do, because attack clearly isn't in their skillset -- so why would the Aliens care about them?
I don't recall hearing about that. Where did he say that? Either way the point still stands. Yes, and surviving is precisely what they did until the very end. Also, they were still a threat to the hive, not only because of them actively killing off the Xenos, but because of their nature as Yautja which I'm sure they would be familiar with and knowing it's an enemy that needs to be defeated, and adding that Xenos are generally a life-destroying force and will naturally go after any and all life available. There's really no mystery here.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Nov 03, 2020, 10:49:15 AM
Quote from: SiL on Nov 03, 2020, 10:21:20 AM
That scene doesn't take place in Antarctica. Anderson said that the scene is his explanation for why South American civilisations seemed to disappear overnight.
Which still didn't quite work for me since weren't they just abandoned cities, not big craters. Oh Anderson.
Noting that the nukes are naturally localized to a particular range and the location where the bomb went off may not be the same where all other abandoned temples are found. It's not really an issue if you think a little further.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 03, 2020, 11:12:51 AM
Oh yeah none of it makes a lick'a god-damned sense.
Can't agree with that assessment. You just need to think a little further.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 03, 2020, 11:54:08 AM
Yes, and surviving is precisely what they did until the very end.
The only way for there to be that many Aliens and three Predators is if the Predators did absolutely nothing during their hunt.
Quotenot only because of them actively killing off the Xenos,
They only killed them as they ran up to them. That every single Alien -- in the entire town, which was hundreds, if not thousands -- went to three targets that would have had to have been actively running away, is ridiculous.
One could argue that the scene of the three Predators fighting infinite Aliens was merely Rule of Cool visual hyperbole and didn't actually take place; I'm not sure the hieroglyphics Sebastian was reading literally spelled out the exact events shown on-screen.
The "Predator nukes wiped out ancient civilizations but didn't damage the temples" thing is still pretty silly, but at least it isn't a totally insane obvious apocalypse scenario.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 03, 2020, 12:18:45 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 03, 2020, 11:54:08 AM
Yes, and surviving is precisely what they did until the very end.
The only way for there to be that many Aliens and three Predators is if the Predators did absolutely nothing during their hunt.
That's just the only option you can personally think of, but there could be other alternatives depending on the details of the events, and we could all probably think of different scenarios.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 03, 2020, 12:18:45 PM
Quotenot only because of them actively killing off the Xenos,
They only killed them as they ran up to them. That every single Alien -- in the entire town, which was hundreds, if not thousands -- went to three targets that would have had to have been actively running away, is ridiculous.
That's Xeno mentality regardless what you think of it, they are designed to go after life wherever they find it, and again adding that they probably know what a threat Yautjas are in how they can take the Xenos out very easily as demonstrated.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 03, 2020, 01:22:22 PM
One could argue that the scene of the three Predators fighting infinite Aliens was merely Rule of Cool visual hyperbole and didn't actually take place; I'm not sure the hieroglyphics Sebastian was reading literally spelled out the exact events shown on-screen.
The "Predator nukes wiped out ancient civilizations but didn't damage the temples" thing is still pretty silly, but at least it isn't a totally insane obvious apocalypse scenario.
We are never told their nukes didn't damage temples, but there's no reason why we should assume that they detonated their nukes at every temple, so that's just an audience misunderstanding.
QuoteThat's Xeno mentality regardless what you think of it, they are designed to go after life wherever they find it, and again adding that they probably know what a threat Yautjas are in how they can take the Xenos out very easily as demonstrated.
And of course there was no life in the surrounding forest.
We know there was at least one deer in Gunnison. ;)
Quote from: SiL on Nov 03, 2020, 12:18:45 PM
Quotenot only because of them actively killing off the Xenos,
They only killed them as they ran up to them. That every single Alien -- in the entire town, which was hundreds, if not thousands -- went to three targets that would have had to have been actively running away, is ridiculous.
That's an easy explanation. The Queen wasn't free and she was calling all of them back before they could take over the planet. ???
Quote from: SM on Nov 03, 2020, 07:36:22 PM
QuoteThat's Xeno mentality regardless what you think of it, they are designed to go after life wherever they find it, and again adding that they probably know what a threat Yautjas are in how they can take the Xenos out very easily as demonstrated.
And of course there was no life in the surrounding forest.
I don't know, but it's irrelevant, because the Yautja were alive and dangerous.
How is someone running away from you not doing anything dangerous?
... You're not a cop in the US, are you?
Quote from: SiL on Nov 04, 2020, 03:22:40 AM
How is someone running away from you not doing anything dangerous?
... You're not a cop in the US, are you?
Come on SiL. Hicks already had to shut this down in another thread. Please don't start it up in this one. Please keep it AvP.
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. It was a joke about current events.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Nov 02, 2020, 08:36:37 AM
This isn't the place for that real-world discussion. The point is Alien and Marvel have always been political and provide social commentary, regardless of whether or not you saw it without it being pointed out to you.
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=64053.msg2489813#new (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=64053.msg2489813#new)
If you go by the hivemind thing, the aliens are aware of the danger the Predators can be due to the Queen's memories on them.
There are aware of how much violent Predator are and the threat they can be towards their kind in comparison to other species, there might be anger and revenge feelings to it so even one is running away and not doing anything dangerous it wouldn't matter due to the history between them. The Queens that were used in the rituals are probably really pissed off. Is it like prejudice from the Aliens against all Predators?
Those 3 preds were not the ones responsible for what happened towards the Queen, they are just kids thrown into violent challenge to man up. Maybe one of them didn't even want to be there but they were punished regardless, regardless the deaths of everyone involved was just collateral damage of the system that Predator clan created.
Maybe increasing their numbers first, even to that extreme was a strategy for the aliens to make sure the Predators wouldn't stand a chance and that the Queen would be easily free. They had their plasma casters already, relying on numbers was their only chance.
Still doesn't explain why no Aliens would spread into the forest.
We see in the movie that they don't care if there is a Predator actively shooting them in the face, if they have the chance to save the Queen they will - even if there's half a dozen of them.
It's a dumb scene that looks cool.
Quote from: Kradan on Nov 04, 2020, 12:55:35 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Nov 02, 2020, 08:36:37 AM
This isn't the place for that real-world discussion. The point is Alien and Marvel have always been political and provide social commentary, regardless of whether or not you saw it without it being pointed out to you.
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=64053.msg2489813#new (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=64053.msg2489813#new)
Thanks! I'm not actually omniscient so I appreciate the context.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/JaggedMelodicBlackfish-size_restricted.gif)
Quote from: SiL on Nov 04, 2020, 08:34:25 PM
Still doesn't explain why no Aliens would spread into the forest.
We see in the movie that they don't care if there is a Predator actively shooting them in the face, if they have the chance to save the Queen they will - even if there's half a dozen of them.
It's a dumb scene that looks cool.
3 Predators are a more threat in the immediate area than some jaguar in the rainforest. Just like how bees and ants swarm in on a threat near their hive., the preds were right in xeno territory so of course they would all jump in.
Plus who can say that maybe they had some kind of homing signature that lured in the aliens so that once the all mass in center, one of them can detonate the self destruct sequence and eliminate the alien threat at once, thus preventing further infestation. Other media had preds control xenos to a level before, who's to say they didn't have something similar in case of a situation like that?
The Aliens later in the movie were actively being shot in the face and still decided to go do something else. They completely ignored Scar and Lex after that until Scar and Lex ran into them; they were fully preparing to run away and expand.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 05, 2020, 08:27:14 AM
The Aliens later in the movie were actively being shot in the face and still decided to go do something else. They completely ignored Scar and Lex after that until Scar and Lex ran into them; they were fully preparing to run away and expand.
I guess we'll never know the context of why those 3 predators deserved all the attention of all the aliens, simply because it's a very short scene and we only see the outcome, not the setup. There might be a completely logical reason for all aliens to be focused on one small group.
Probably just because Anderson thought it looked cool.
I think because it's a story the Predators wrote on the floor and not something that literally happened. I think more likely with the nukes would be the last predator standing blowing himself up in the temple.
The issue remains that the film shows the Aliens clearly take opportunities to run out and spread, so the whole concept undermines the drive to prevent them getting to earth. Even when not isolated on an island, they don't seem to get anywhere.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 05, 2020, 12:16:19 PM
I think because it's a story the Predators wrote on the floor and not something that literally happened. I think more likely with the nukes would be the last predator standing blowing himself up in the temple.
The issue remains that the film shows the Aliens clearly take opportunities to run out and spread, so the whole concept undermines the drive to prevent them getting to earth. Even when not isolated on an island, they don't seem to get anywhere.
Again, as stated before, it's a short scene of a story where we only know the outcome, not the setup or all factors involved, and its purpose was to establish the mythology and make sense of the setting (in a very cool way). This is still an unfair criticism taken farther than it should to say the least. In no way does this undermine the drive to prevent them from getting to Earth.
Again, they've been on earth for thousands of years and the short story clearly shows the Predators aren't always on top of things - yet nothing too bad seems to happen.
Sil = logic
Turok = emotion
Quote from: SiL on Nov 13, 2020, 10:01:05 PM
Again, they've been on earth for thousands of years and the short story clearly shows the Predators aren't always on top of things - yet nothing too bad seems to happen.
Nothing too bad happens? Xenomorphs overrun and eradicate entire civilizations isn't "too bad"? Come on.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Nov 13, 2020, 11:18:31 PM
Sil = logic
Turok = emotion
How do you mean I'm supposedly arguing from "emotion" contrary to Sil? That seems an unfair and dishonest assessment. It seems we're both trying to approach this from a logical standpoint, except Sil doesn't seem to really think through his criticisms properly and ultimately rendering them unfair and unreasonable, and it's thus very poor logic, and you may even argue he's applying more of an emotional response as he keeps insisting upon the Xenomorphs having been on Earth suddenly means we shouldn't bother if they return to Earth in the future and using this as basis for personal despise of
AVP. Feel free to elaborate if you think you can present a better argument.
Yeah, both of you present curious mixtures of emotion and logic
I sense someone 'promoting falsehood'...
At least it's not a f**kin' canon debate.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 14, 2020, 03:29:05 PM
Nothing too bad happens? Xenomorphs overrun and eradicate entire civilizations isn't "too bad"? Come on.
Compared to the global catastrophe the original series threatens, no. It's always contained. And the Predators do the wiping out.
Quote from: Kradan on Nov 14, 2020, 09:13:25 PM
Yeah, both of you present curious mixtures of emotion and logic
Perhaps to some extent.
Quote from: SM on Nov 14, 2020, 09:19:41 PM
I sense someone 'promoting falsehood'...
Oh how do you mean?
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 14, 2020, 09:28:16 PM
At least it's not a f**kin' canon debate.
Thank goodness.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 14, 2020, 09:50:10 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 14, 2020, 03:29:05 PM
Nothing too bad happens? Xenomorphs overrun and eradicate entire civilizations isn't "too bad"? Come on.
Compared to the global catastrophe the original series threatens, no. It's always contained. And the Predators do the wiping out.
Oh come on now, you can always find a worse comparison (for example Xenomorphs taking over the entire globe is not too bad compared to if they had taken over the entire galaxy), but be honest with me here for once, you can't seriously insist that having them overrun and eradicate entire civilizations isn't a bad thing. If you're just gonna move the goalposts then why do you even attempt to discuss this? And what does it matter who wipes them out? Surely you must realize how silly this reasoning is. Noting that all the films have been "contained" to some extent. None of this nullifies the threat of a Xenomorph invasion, regardless of extent.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 15, 2020, 09:37:54 AM
If you're just gonna move the goalposts then why do you even attempt to discuss this?
I haven't shifted any goalposts. We've been talking about a specific scenario posited by the original films this entire time, which was Aliens wiping out life on Earth if they got there.
Wiping out a small South American civilisation -- and, again, that wasn't the Aliens, it was the Predators doing damage control -- is not as bad as the scenario warned about in the original films, no.
The whole point was that if they got to Earth, it would be about impossible to contain them.
AvP says no.
That's it.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 15, 2020, 10:50:50 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 15, 2020, 09:37:54 AM
If you're just gonna move the goalposts then why do you even attempt to discuss this?
I haven't shifted any goalposts. We've been talking about a specific scenario posited by the original films this entire time, which was Aliens wiping out life on Earth if they got there.
Wiping out a small South American civilisation -- and, again, that wasn't the Aliens, it was the Predators doing damage control -- is not as bad as the scenario warned about in the original films, no.
The whole point was that if they got to Earth, it would be about impossible to contain them.
AvP says no.
That's it.
My point was to highlight that your logic didn't make any sense. Why is a civilization-wide infestation "not too bad"? I reckon that would already be too bad, and a global infestation would only be worse, and even worse a galaxy-wide infestation. And the Predators didn't eradicate the civilization, but the Xenomorphs eradicated the civilization, while the Predators just eradicated the Xenomorphs. Yes, it could be near impossible to contain them, which we get a taste of much better in both
AVP and
AVPR than we do in any of the other films, and they certainly don't say anything different, but they're presenting that same idea and making it clear why we can't allow them to come back.
But that idea of an infestation that is impossible to defeat also presupposes that the infestation was actually allowed to reach beyond that point of no-return and that it wasn't stopped while it could still be stopped (just like it was stopped in every other film or any other works). Also noting that the concern Ripley had in fighting the Xenomorphs wasn't just that they could take over Earth, but it was a very general concern that humans should not be exposed to them at all, and just because infestations in their early stages was successfully eradicated in the past doesn't mean that all of a sudden it should be of no concern if they return. That logic doesn't make any sense and I still don't see your problem here.
He's saying that the premise of the Alien movies is that they cannot be contained and letting even one of them get to earth would be a doomsday scenario.
The AvP movies show them getting contained, a contradiction to what Ripley says.
(I think) that's all he's saying.
One could argue that she's not saying the Aliens are the problem so much as the humans are, that it would be human actions that allow the Aliens to spread and devastate the earth. Predators might know how to keep the situation under control, but even in 'Alien3's Assembly Cut' when they literally honest to god genuinely contain the Alien, all it takes is one idiot to let it back out and it's game over. Or in Resurrection when they genuinely had the Aliens locked up in cages, but the humans were dumb enough to put more than one Alien in a cage.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 15, 2020, 03:34:01 PM
He's saying that the premise of the Alien movies is that they cannot be contained and letting even one of them get to earth would be a doomsday scenario.
The AvP movies show them getting contained, a contradiction to what Ripley says.
(I think) that's all he's saying.
One could argue that she's not saying the Aliens are the problem so much as the humans are, that it would be human actions that allow the Aliens to spread and devastate the earth. Predators might know how to keep the situation under control, but even in 'Alien3's Assembly Cut' when they literally honest to god genuinely contain the Alien, all it takes is one idiot to let it back out and it's game over. Or in Resurrection when they genuinely had the Aliens locked up in cages, but the humans were dumb enough to put more than one Alien in a cage.
I realize that's what he's saying, but it doesn't make any sense. They're no more "contained" (and he doesn't specify an extent) in
AVP or
AVPR than they are in any of the other films or any other works, and in fact they're much less "contained" than they are shown in the four
Alien films.
Ripley doesn't argue that they definitively can't be "contained" (to whatever extent) and she doesn't argue that a Xenomorph reaching Earth definitively means doomsday, but she's clearly arguing from a realistic perspective where we consider Xenomorphs extremely dangerous and capable of causing a doomsday scenario, but not that there definitively will be a global doomsday if they reach Earth.
In other words, there COULD be a doomsday scenario, as there is a high risk for that due to the nature of Xenomorphs, but it's not definitively true that a doomsday scenario will arise once a Xenomorph reaches Earth and starts reproducing itself. Again, the argument Sil makes here doesn't make any sense.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 15, 2020, 06:07:59 PM
I realize that's what he's saying, but it doesn't make any sense.
I'm sorry, but it makes complete sense. This thread is f**king
painful.
Yup.
QuoteOh how do you mean?
Well on one side we have Sil who calmly suffers fools and bad actors, and the other side is a embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger Effect
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 15, 2020, 01:24:14 PM
My point was to highlight that your logic didn't make any sense. Why is a civilization-wide infestation "not too bad"? I reckon that would already be too bad, and a global infestation would only be worse,
Thank you for agreeing that a global infestation would be worse than what AvP shows and agreeing with my point that AvP undermines the threat mentioned in the original movies by showing that doomsday scenario not occurring.
It took a while, but it's nice to see we're on the same page finally.
Let's remove the titles?
[FILM FRANCHISE] explicitly suggests that if X, then Y. This colours the internal logic of most of [FILM FRANCHISE], and is never really in doubt.
[CROSSOVER FRANCHISE] shows X happening repeatedly, without Y ever happening at all.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 15, 2020, 07:40:42 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 15, 2020, 06:07:59 PM
I realize that's what he's saying, but it doesn't make any sense.
I'm sorry, but it makes complete sense. This thread is f**king painful.
:laugh:
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so.
I had to look up Dunning-Kruger Effect myself, thanks SM :D :laugh:
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/730090ebd1f38956c9eea187141c070d/tenor.gif?itemid=4076860)
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 15, 2020, 08:48:35 PM
Let's remove the titles?
[FILM FRANCHISE] explicitly suggests that if X, then Y. This colours the internal logic of most of [FILM FRANCHISE], and is never really in doubt.
[CROSSOVER FRANCHISE] shows X happening repeatedly, without Y ever happening at all.
This is the way
I've heard that the movie is easier to see with the bluray version. I thought about getting it just for that, but idk.
A little, but it's not a magic fix. The higher dynamic range over the dvd gives a bit more depth, but things like the PredAlien shedding and Drew getting killed in the hive are still basically pitch black.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 15, 2020, 07:40:42 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 15, 2020, 06:07:59 PM
I realize that's what he's saying, but it doesn't make any sense.
I'm sorry, but it makes complete sense. This thread is f**king painful.
I agree that it's painful, and please explain how his argument supposedly "makes sense".
He did.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 15, 2020, 08:48:35 PM
Let's remove the titles?
[FILM FRANCHISE] explicitly suggests that if X, then Y. This colours the internal logic of most of [FILM FRANCHISE], and is never really in doubt.
[CROSSOVER FRANCHISE] shows X happening repeatedly, without Y ever happening at all.
Quote from: SM on Nov 15, 2020, 08:29:12 PM
Yup.
QuoteOh how do you mean?
Well on one side we have Sil who calmly suffers fools and bad actors, and the other side is a embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger Effect
Feel free to elaborate or this can just be disregarded as yet another of your regular misrepresentations of the other person. I feel I'm calmly suffering fools and bad actors enough as it is.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 15, 2020, 08:41:36 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 15, 2020, 01:24:14 PM
My point was to highlight that your logic didn't make any sense. Why is a civilization-wide infestation "not too bad"? I reckon that would already be too bad, and a global infestation would only be worse,
Thank you for agreeing that a global infestation would be worse than what AvP shows and agreeing with my point that AvP undermines the threat mentioned in the original movies by showing that doomsday scenario not occurring.
It took a while, but it's nice to see we're on the same page finally.
Well that's not juvenile at all. Why would I not agree that a global infestation is worse than what
AVP shows? That's just silly. I also never agreed with your argument that
AVP supposedly "undermines the threat as presented in the original films" and you have yet to explain how that could be true and how this idea of yours makes any sense. How does
AVP not showing a global doomsday scenario supposedly undermine the threat of a Xenomorph infestation as presented in the original films? It doesn't undermine the threat the slightest bit, but if anything it highlights what a great threat it is, and much better and more clearly than any of the previous films did.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 15, 2020, 08:48:35 PM
Let's remove the titles?
[FILM FRANCHISE] explicitly suggests that if X, then Y. This colours the internal logic of most of [FILM FRANCHISE], and is never really in doubt.
[CROSSOVER FRANCHISE] shows X happening repeatedly, without Y ever happening at all.
The problem here is that what the one person suggests that Y represents is not actually what Y represents in the films. In other words, a Xenomorph reaching Earth COULD result in anything from the Xenomorph being killed off to a global infestation. The logic of the first four films is NOT (as Sil suggests) that a Xenomorph reaching Earth will inevitably lead to a global infestation (which would already be refuted by how the previous infestations featured in the previous four films were handled), but the logic is that Xenomorphs are incredibly dangerous and a Xenomorph reaching Earth COULD lead to anything from it being killed off to a global infestation, and NOT exclusively a global infestation. His viewpoint is fundamentally flawed and unreasonable.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 15, 2020, 10:01:38 PM
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 15, 2020, 08:48:35 PM
Let's remove the titles?
[FILM FRANCHISE] explicitly suggests that if X, then Y. This colours the internal logic of most of [FILM FRANCHISE], and is never really in doubt.
[CROSSOVER FRANCHISE] shows X happening repeatedly, without Y ever happening at all.
This is the way
No, it's not, as already explained, yet it keeps going over your head.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 15, 2020, 11:16:06 PM
He did.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 15, 2020, 08:48:35 PM
Let's remove the titles?
[FILM FRANCHISE] explicitly suggests that if X, then Y. This colours the internal logic of most of [FILM FRANCHISE], and is never really in doubt.
[CROSSOVER FRANCHISE] shows X happening repeatedly, without Y ever happening at all.
He never did. Neither did you for that matter!
By the way, I would like to note that we went way off topic here. Perhaps we shall return to the issue of the lighting in
AVPR.
Its like speaking to a wall.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 15, 2020, 11:19:38 PM
No, it's not, as already explained, yet it keeps going over your head.
Nobody in this thread is having a hard time understanding your argument.
Several of them feel it's a weak one, made of post-hoc justifications and fairy dust.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Nov 15, 2020, 11:52:12 PM
Its like speaking to a wall.
I definitely agree, although you haven't really spoken much at all to be perfectly honest, with exception to slight personal attacks (and I'm guessing it's because you don't have a good and valid argument to propose).
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 15, 2020, 11:52:37 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 15, 2020, 11:19:38 PM
No, it's not, as already explained, yet it keeps going over your head.
Nobody in this thread is having a hard time understanding your argument.
Several of them feel it's a weak one, made of post-hoc justifications and fairy dust.
How is it "weak"? Especially in comparison to the considerably weaker and unreasonable argument proposed by Sil? It was a fundamentally flawed argument which he barely bothered to support outside of basically repeating himself and hoping for a different outcome. I mean if you can't even properly explain yourself and address my counterarguments then how do you expect me to turn over and agree with you?
You agree that the AvP films show that Aliens on earth doesn't necessarily lead to the global apocalypse warned about in the original films, thus undermining Ripley's concerns.
That's the entire argument and always has been. You are the only one struggling with this.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 12:17:56 AM
You agree that the AvP films show that Aliens on earth doesn't necessarily lead to the global apocalypse warned about in the original films, thus undermining Ripley's concerns.
That's the entire argument and always has been. You are the only one struggling with this.
No. First off, Ripley's concerns were never exclusively focused on a global infestation, but were very general concerns about Xenomorph infestations occurring at all, especially on her homeworld. Second, even if her personal concerns had been specifically directed at a global infestation, that doesn't really matter because any degree of a Xenomorph infestation is naturally terrible and should be avoided. Third, had the eradication of Xenomorph infestations on Earth as depicted in
AVP actually "undermined" any such concerns then certainly Ripley's own continual eradication of Xenomorph infestations throughout four films would already have done the job of undermining those concerns (and much more than
AVP, seeing as
AVP actually reached much closer to a global Earth infestation than any of the infestations in the previous four films did, as all the Xenomorphs in the previous films were "contained" and relatively easily eradicated). I'm definitely not the one struggling here. You're doing a very poor job at supporting your position.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 12:17:56 AM
You agree that the AvP films show that Aliens on earth doesn't necessarily lead to the global apocalypse warned about in the original films, thus undermining Ripley's concerns.
That's the entire argument and always has been. You are the only one struggling with this.
I think you guys are sort of talking past each other.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that Ripley is claiming that an Alien getting to Earth is a doomsday scenario. That's true, she literally says it (and Call says it too in Resurrection).
If I'm understanding him correctly, I think turokswe is saying that Ripley was mistaken. That isn't to say that Aliens are "easily contained" (committing suicide by nuke is pretty extreme), but it also doesn't mean that an Alien threat is absolutely unstoppable - if that were true, every Alien movie would end with everyone dead and the Alien(s) doing whatever they want.
THAT SAID, the first AvP movie "works" because it takes place in an isolated environment just as the Alien movies do (on spaceships, or in isolated colonies), and you could make the case that the other Predators on the cloaked Predator ship were a contingency plan to contain any Alien stragglers if Scar's nuke didn't kill them all. Predators, with their experience, resilience, and technology, are an Alien-stopping variable Ripley wouldn't consider.
Just like how in 'Alien' the Alien is an unstoppable killing machine, but in 'Aliens' you can put one down with basic firearms like a pistol or a shotgun. Shooting the Alien wasn't an option in the first movie, but that doesn't mean the Alien is literally invincible.
The scenario in AvPR is a bit of a harder sell because it presupposes that not a single Alien bails on Gunnison at any point in the movie and that they all hung out in nuke range. Yeah sure you can argue in favor of them doing it, but Aliens are clever and unpredictable and don't all follow in a single direction. A small town isn't an inherently isolated environment like antarctica, or a spaceship.
Do the AvP movies undermine the "spirit" of the Alien movies by full-on putting the Aliens on Earth at all? I think that's a different argument and I guess it depends on one's level of tolerance. Like, I've seen people dislike 'Aliens' because they felt that being able to kill an Alien at all, let alone with something as basic and conventional as firearms, undermined the "spirit" of 'Alien' even if the Aliens were still an overwhelming threat.
I've been clear from the start the AvP saying she's wrong undermines the threat that the series poses in the original films, and that is all.
Turokswe keeps going off on strange, irrelevant tangents to try to say I'm wrong while simultaneously agreeing with me.
Okay yeah that's pretty much what I thought :P
TurokSwe speaks the truth. I proudly stand with him.
Quote from: Gr33n M4n on Nov 16, 2020, 02:23:55 AM
TurokSwe speaks the truth. I proudly stand with him.
...
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 15, 2020, 07:40:42 PM
This thread is f**king painful.
I take it back, this is my new favourite thread.
QuoteFeel free to elaborate or this can just be disregarded as yet another of your regular misrepresentations of the other person.
I don't think it's a misrepresentation to say that you've written thousands of words on your website calling effectively others - who have worked in the franchise in an official capacity - liars (https://sites.google.com/view/xenoversecenter/xenoblog/2020-archive/exploring-canonicity-in-the-alien-and-predator-universe#h.rxse4jli5a70).
You - and correct me if I am wrong - have not, so your knowledge about such things is low and while you believe it is high. Ergo - Dunning-Kruger. Elaborate enough?
Here we go
(https://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-munch.gif)
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 15, 2020, 03:34:01 PM
He's saying that the premise of the Alien movies is that they cannot be contained and letting even one of them get to earth would be a doomsday scenario.
Which I always found a bit unplausible
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 16, 2020, 01:20:53 AM
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 12:17:56 AM
You agree that the AvP films show that Aliens on earth doesn't necessarily lead to the global apocalypse warned about in the original films, thus undermining Ripley's concerns.
That's the entire argument and always has been. You are the only one struggling with this.
I think you guys are sort of talking past each other.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that Ripley is claiming that an Alien getting to Earth is a doomsday scenario. That's true, she literally says it (and Call says it too in Resurrection).
If I'm understanding him correctly, I think turokswe is saying that Ripley was mistaken. That isn't to say that Aliens are "easily contained" (committing suicide by nuke is pretty extreme), but it also doesn't mean that an Alien threat is absolutely unstoppable - if that were true, every Alien movie would end with everyone dead and the Alien(s) doing whatever they want.
THAT SAID, the first AvP movie "works" because it takes place in an isolated environment just as the Alien movies do (on spaceships, or in isolated colonies), and you could make the case that the other Predators on the cloaked Predator ship were a contingency plan to contain any Alien stragglers if Scar's nuke didn't kill them all. Predators, with their experience, resilience, and technology, are an Alien-stopping variable Ripley wouldn't consider.
Just like how in 'Alien' the Alien is an unstoppable killing machine, but in 'Aliens' you can put one down with basic firearms like a pistol or a shotgun. Shooting the Alien wasn't an option in the first movie, but that doesn't mean the Alien is literally invincible.
The scenario in AvPR is a bit of a harder sell because it presupposes that not a single Alien bails on Gunnison at any point in the movie and that they all hung out in nuke range. Yeah sure you can argue in favor of them doing it, but Aliens are clever and unpredictable and don't all follow in a single direction. A small town isn't an inherently isolated environment like antarctica, or a spaceship.
Do the AvP movies undermine the "spirit" of the Alien movies by full-on putting the Aliens on Earth at all? I think that's a different argument and I guess it depends on one's level of tolerance. Like, I've seen people dislike 'Aliens' because they felt that being able to kill an Alien at all, let alone with something as basic and conventional as firearms, undermined the "spirit" of 'Alien' even if the Aliens were still an overwhelming threat.
Thank you! I think you're beginning to see what's going on between us here. Although I would like to correct you and say that, no, I'm not arguing that Ripley was "mistaken", but I'm merely arguing that (1) she's not specifically concerned with a doomsday scenario as much as she's concerned with Xenomorphs coming into contact with humans in general and causing havoc to any extent, and that especially on her homeworld where the fear of a global infestation would of course be the extreme, and (2) she doesn't even know 100% that a Xenomorph reaching Earth will inevitably lead to a global infestation, because it might or it might not happen depending on the circumstances, and her battles against them would prove that they can be relatively easily defeated and by only a few individuals and even such that are either armed or unarmed. AVP doesn't undermine this concern at all, but it promotes the same concern and to a greater extent by giving us an actual picture of what an infestation on Earth could be like, and what might happen if they were allowed to proliferate far enough.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 02:00:12 AM
I've been clear from the start the AvP saying she's wrong undermines the threat that the series poses in the original films, and that is all.
Turokswe keeps going off on strange, irrelevant tangents to try to say I'm wrong while simultaneously agreeing with me.
But
AVP doesn't say "she's wrong", it says she's right, and you have yet to properly explain how it supposedly "undermines" that very same threat that is presented in both the first four films and
AVP and
AVPR. I don't know what you mean by "going off on strange irrelevant tangents" and feel free to elaborate. To say that I'm supposedly "agreeing with you" isn't entirely honest or else we wouldn't have this conversation.
Quote from: Gr33n M4n on Nov 16, 2020, 02:23:55 AM
TurokSwe speaks the truth. I proudly stand with him.
Thank you! I'm glad to see people are beginning to come to their senses.
I've explained it several times and you keep ignoring it for strawmen and goal shifting. I can't help you if you're going to insist on being disingenuous.
The underlying threat is if they get to earth, everything is doomed.
The AvP films clearly show this is not the case.
I don't understand how much simpler it needs to be for you to understand but you are literally the only person struggling with this concept.
Quote from: SM on Nov 16, 2020, 03:59:43 AM
QuoteFeel free to elaborate or this can just be disregarded as yet another of your regular misrepresentations of the other person.
I don't think it's a misrepresentation to say that you've written thousands of words on your website calling effectively others - who have worked in the franchise in an official capacity - liars (https://sites.google.com/view/xenoversecenter/xenoblog/2020-archive/exploring-canonicity-in-the-alien-and-predator-universe#h.rxse4jli5a70).
You - and correct me if I am wrong - have not, so your knowledge about such things is low and while you believe it is high. Ergo - Dunning-Kruger. Elaborate enough?
I don't know about elaborate but it's certainly much clearer that you're just out here being personally offended by some random individual being naturally skeptical of very questionable assertions and reasoning and providing support for such confident skepticism. My advice to you would be to not take it personally, because it's not meant to, and I'm also pretty sure this is not the kind of discussion you would like to have.
Not with someone such as yourself currently sitting atop Mt Stupid, nor capable of arguing in good faith.
Quote from: Kradan on Nov 16, 2020, 06:11:54 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 15, 2020, 03:34:01 PM
He's saying that the premise of the Alien movies is that they cannot be contained and letting even one of them get to earth would be a doomsday scenario.
Which I always found a bit unplausible
Thank you! It is an implausible premise which isn't actually presented in the films, but they establish that anything up to a global infestation could potentially occur given the right circumstances. I think Sil has taken an odd turn in interpreting the first four films by implying that a Xenomorph reaching Earth automatically and inevitably must lead to a global infestation.
It's not shown in the films because the point of the films is to stop that from happening :)
Showing it happen without the dire consequences predicted undermines that effort.
This is really not difficult.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 06:58:39 AM
I've explained it several times and you keep ignoring it for strawmen and goal shifting. I can't help you if you're going to insist on being disingenuous.
The underlying threat is if they get to earth, everything is doomed.
The AvP films clearly show this is not the case.
I don't understand how much simpler it needs to be for you to understand but you are literally the only person struggling with this concept.
All you've done thus far is basically repeating yourself, with little to no explanation. No, the underlying threat is NOT that "everything IS doomed", but the underlying threat is that "anything OR everything COULD be doomed" and the
AVP films are perfectly consistent with this and perfectly consistent with how combatting Xenomorph infestations in the past four films was carried out. This is what you're not getting and I've been trying to get this point through to you multiple times by now but it seems to just keep going over your head. The only thing I need to struggle with here is trying to get this point into your head, but it seems an almost impossible task.
Quote from: SM on Nov 16, 2020, 07:05:47 AM
Not with someone such as yourself currently sitting atop Mt Stupid, nor capable of arguing in good faith.
I guess that settles that then. Probably shouldn't be wasting your time here then without contributing anything.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 07:09:28 AM
It's not shown in the films because the point of the films is to stop that from happening :)
Showing it happen without the dire consequences predicted undermines that effort.
This is really not difficult.
But the problem is again that the necessary consequences you're arguing are not actually necessary consequences in the first four films. In other words, as stated before, the films do NOT predict that a Xenomorph reaching Earth will inevitably lead to a global infestation, they predict that a Xenomorph reaching Earth could lead to anything up to a global infestation, which would merely be a worst case scenario for our homeworld.
AVP definitively does show that Xenomorphs reaching the surface of the Earth leads to dire consequences and continues on that same path as the first four films and combats the same threat and addresses the same concerns, and any worst case scenario could naturally only occur if the circumstances allowed for it.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 16, 2020, 07:12:27 AM
All you've done thus far is basically repeating yourself, with little to no explanation. No, the underlying threat is NOT that "everything IS doomed", but the underlying threat is that "anything OR everything COULD be doomed"
I keep repeating the same thing because you keep trying to side-track it to some completely separate argument that exists only in your own head.
Ripley doesn't say "You can maybe kiss all this bullshit goodbye if we don't contain it fast enough". The warning is quite blunt. The Alien must be prevented from reaching Earth or it's lights out.
This is you being disingenuous. You're ignoring what the films say and substituting your own version, then holding me to that. I really don't care what you think the films say, or what you interpret them to mean. That's not the discussion here.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 07:27:47 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 16, 2020, 07:12:27 AM
All you've done thus far is basically repeating yourself, with little to no explanation. No, the underlying threat is NOT that "everything IS doomed", but the underlying threat is that "anything OR everything COULD be doomed"
I keep repeating the same thing because you keep trying to side-track it to some completely separate argument that exists only in your own head.
Ripley doesn't say "You can maybe kiss all this bullshit goodbye if we don't contain it fast enough". The warning is quite blunt. The Alien must be prevented from reaching Earth or it's lights out.
This is you being disingenuous. You're ignoring what the films say and substituting your own version, then holding me to that. I really don't care what you think the films say, or what you interpret them to mean. That's not the discussion here.
Again, you go on using the same pointless tactic and refusing to explain what you mean by me supposedly going off on a "completely different track". The reality is I'm not on a separate track here, but somehow this is going over your head. Ripley is voicing a very emotional human concern that the Xenomorphs could cause terrible things to happen to her fellow human beings, she's not exclusively concerned with "Xenomorphs reaching Earth will specifically and inevitably cause a global infestation", and this is an incredibly strange and unreasonable position for you to take.
Which part of what has been said in the films am I supposedly "ignoring"? Seriously, none of what you're saying here makes any sense. You're the one being disingenuous here. You seem to have chosen to interpret the films as saying that "a Xenomorph reaching Earth will specifically and inevitably lead to a global infestation", and I'm just trying to point out how incredibly unreasonable this interpretation is and how that is not what the films are communicating.
QuoteYou seem to have chosen to interpret the films as saying that "a Xenomorph reaching Earth will specifically and inevitably lead to a global infestation", and I'm just trying to point out how incredibly unreasonable this interpretation is and how that is not what the films are communicating.
I hate to tell you this, but you're in the minority interpreting Ripley's warning -- and the through line of the series as a whole -- as "we might lose, like, a city". It's been the common understanding of the danger of the Alien getting to Earth the entire franchise. Even when Earth is a hell-hole in Resurrection, Ripley and Call still decide it's better to wipe them out than let them loose. Doesn't speak volumes to them thinking some small scale infection is a likely scenario.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 07:46:51 AM
QuoteYou seem to have chosen to interpret the films as saying that "a Xenomorph reaching Earth will specifically and inevitably lead to a global infestation", and I'm just trying to point out how incredibly unreasonable this interpretation is and how that is not what the films are communicating.
I hate to tell you this, but you're in the minority interpreting Ripley's warning -- and the through line of the series as a whole -- as "we might lose, like, a city". It's been the common understanding of the danger of the Alien getting to Earth the entire franchise. Even when Earth is a hell-hole in Resurrection, Ripley and Call still decide it's better to wipe them out than let them loose. Doesn't speak volumes to them thinking some small scale infection is a likely scenario.
I really don't think I'm in the minority on this one, sorry. Yes, the danger of the Xenomorphs getting to Earth has indeed been the common understanding here, and I haven't said anything different. You're the one insisting that Xenomorphs reaching Earth for some odd reason MUST inevitably lead to a global infestation and that they couldn't possibly be eradicated before they reach that point, and this is again an extremely strange and unreasonable position to take.
Again, the concern in the films is a very general concern that Xenomorphs reaching Earth could lead to anything up to a global infestation. Even if you fear specifically and exclusively a global infestation, that doesn't mean it will happen, and the films and other works have continually demonstrated that a global infestation is not the necessary result of a Xenomorph infestation, but it depends entirely on the circumstances and whether they are successfully taken out before that point, and a global infestation would only be the worst case scenario for our homeworld. Do you see what I'm saying?
You're the only person in this thread struggling with the concept being discussed.
There was an incredibly popular comic series released about the concept after Aliens came out.
It has always been widely understood that if Aliens reached a populated planet, such as Earth, it would be catastrophic. Not "woops, lost a city" bad, but there goes humanity bad.
So yes, you are 100% in the minority here.
You've already agreed AvP establishes it's not as bad as feared, and yet you keep trying to act like that actually somehow means you're right. You do you.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 08:06:49 AM
You're the only person in this thread struggling with the concept being discussed.
There was an incredibly popular comic series released about the concept after Aliens came out.
It has always been widely understood that if Aliens reached a populated planet, such as Earth, it would be catastrophic. Not "woops, lost a city" bad, but there goes humanity bad.
So yes, you are 100% in the minority here.
You've already agreed AvP establishes it's not as bad as feared, and yet you keep trying to act like that actually somehow means you're right. You do you.
I'm not struggling with anything other than YOU and trying to explain things to you, but, as pointed out before, it keeps going over your head and you keep going on with the same ridiculous reasoning and acting as if I never addressed your argument. I'm well aware of
Aliens: Earth War, but it's irrelevant, because I'm not arguing against the fact that Xenomorphs reaching Earth COULD lead to a global infestation, but I'm trying to point out the flaw in your argument that the films are communicating that a Xenomorph reaching Earth will specifically, inevitably, and exclusively lead to a global infestation. This is an implausible position and it's not what the films are communicating.
You could stop Xenomorphs if they reach Earth, just like you could stop Xenomorphs in general regardless where you are, just like has been demonstrated in the first four films, and your argument would only be valid if it wasn't true that Xenomorphs could be stopped, especially before an infestation reaches global extent. I have not agreed to what you're childishly insisting that I've supposedly agreed upon, but I have always argued that the fear in the films is that Xenomorphs could cause havoc to any extent up to a global infestation, and
AVP is being perfectly consistent with the previous films, they're just not being consistent with what you personally interpret the films as communicating.
All that being said, you have yet to explain how the first four films supposedly argues that a Xenomorph reaching Earth will definitively, inevitably, and exclusively lead to a global disaster, which is what your entire argument of "
AVP undermines the first four films" really hinges on here, and if that first premise is false (which it arguably is) then your entire argument crumbles. This unreasonable idea of yours is arguably not present in the actual films.
I remember Aliens explicitly saying, if ONE of those things gets down here then that will be all.
I remember Alien³ explicitly saying, if the Company acquires the Alien Queen it will wipe out the entire universe.
AVP undermines both tenfold by saying the Predators have let multiple infestations go crazy, on Earth in the past, f**k me man. It's that simple.
Guess who deleted her post (what a twist), but picked the winning team before doing so?
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Nov 16, 2020, 09:26:50 AM
I remember Aliens explicitly saying, if ONE of those things gets down here then that will be all.
I remember Alien³ explicitly saying, if the Company acquires the Alien Queen it will wipe out the entire universe.
AVP undermines both tenfold by saying the Predators have let multiple infestations go crazy, on Earth in the past, f**k me man. It's that simple.
Someday I will understand why she deletes her posts, but today is not that day.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 16, 2020, 11:32:27 AM
Someday I will understand why she deletes her posts, but today is not that day.
Same
I'm not bullshitting, there's an algorithm to it. I just haven't got enough string and pins to plot it out.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 16, 2020, 11:11:27 AM
Guess who deleted her post (what a twist), but picked the winning team before doing so?
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Nov 16, 2020, 09:26:50 AM
I remember Aliens explicitly saying, if ONE of those things gets down here then that will be all.
I remember Alien³ explicitly saying, if the Company acquires the Alien Queen it will wipe out the entire universe.
AVP undermines both tenfold by saying the Predators have let multiple infestations go crazy, on Earth in the past, f**k me man. It's that simple.
That's usually how she goes. But to address her comments, the emphasis in these films is how dangerous they are, not that they will definitively and inevitably take over an entire planet or an entire universe. It's possible, but it's not a rational conclusion, and this doesn't undermine the danger in any way.
AVP certainly doesn't undermine this emphasis in these previous films at all, and it's an exceedingly weak argument to suggest that they do.
AVP rather remains consistent with these fears of what Xenomorph infestations could do. I also reckon Predators have thousands of years worth of experience with Xenomorphs and always observing the process, having the knowledge, intelligence, technology, and ability to keep infestations in check (with possible exceptions, fallible creatures as they are).
Only cowards delete their posts. I love what you're doing here TurokSwe, keep it up bro. Some people are arrogant and won't admit that they're wrong. They always want to be right instead of seeing what's right in front of them.
QuotePlease know that "You're wrong!" is not a valid argument.
But what if I
really want to say it?
Quote from: Gr33n M4n on Nov 16, 2020, 12:02:01 PM
They always want to be right instead of seeing what's right in front of them.
So why are you praising Turokswe ... ? ???
Quote from: Gr33n M4n on Nov 16, 2020, 12:02:01 PM
Only cowards delete their posts. I love what you're doing here TurokSwe, keep it up bro. Some people are arrogant and won't admit that they're wrong. They always want to be right instead of seeing what's right in front of them.
Thank you, appreciate it, and I couldn't agree more! It can be a real nuisance sometimes, but you gotta keep going and keep trying. Perhaps eventually the person will come to their senses. :)
The point is to prevent them getting to Earth, so that a major cataclysm doesn't occur.
AvP shows that said cataclysm won't occur if they get to Earth, so the depth of her concern is undermined.
There are so many ways to state this simple concept, I am sure we will find one that clicks for you. You're already halfway there acknowledging that Ripley's doomsday scenario doesn't occur, now we just need you to get to the point where you comprehend the fact that means her worst fears were unfounded.
It's clearly going to take a long time, but we're patient.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 16, 2020, 12:03:16 PM
QuotePlease know that "You're wrong!" is not a valid argument.
But what if I really want to say it?
Well, feel free to express yourself my friend, but I'm pretty sure it'd be pointless.
In the Alien movies, Ripley does in fact believe that the aliens pose a great threat to earth and any other civilations that may encounter them, her fears about the aliens is why she goes back to acheon, as she wants them wiped out.
Sil is right in that this is the message the movie gives us, even if only through Ripley's perspective.
Does this mean its certain? No, Ripley could easily be overestimating the threat. She is a human being with human flaws and presumptions and bias are flaws she displays frequently,
Ripley does have good cause for them though, getting attacked by an android could make you dislike/distrust androds. Being considered a secondary concern and expendable by someone in the company is going to make you distrust the company and getting nearly killed by an alien is obviously going to leave an impression.
The point here is that Ripley's views are personal to her past experiences. She genuinely believes the Alien to be a doomsday threat, she initially believed that androids couldn't be trusted and she definitely believed that the company would kill anyone who witnessed an alien. The message she gives to people are clear, that the alien cannot ever reach earth or everyone will die.
It doesn't necessarily mean she is correct though, this is just the scenerio that Ripley and by consequence, the movie is painting for us.
As for AVP, that film suggests that her fears are mostly just that, fears. the aliens are shown to be fairly easily contained and in fact it would probably be simple incompetent retaliation towards the aliens threat that would lead them to be able to spread. The flashback in AVP is actually baffling when you consider that there should only be the same amount of aliens as there were sacrifices, it would take either outright inaction or incompetent behavior to allow such a city wide spread, it should presumably take days of inaction for everyone in the city to be implanted or killed.
That all being said, that doesn't mean such a spread couldn't happen either, small towns with little defence or knowledge of the aliens such as Hadley's Hope, could be overrun completely. So an unprepared settlement or city could be lost but those with knowledge on the aliens should be able to contain them fairly well.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 12:11:36 PM
Quote from: Gr33n M4n on Nov 16, 2020, 12:02:01 PM
They always want to be right instead of seeing what's right in front of them.
So why are you praising Turokswe ... ? ???
Oh don't be a hypocrite.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 16, 2020, 12:18:06 PM
Quote from: Gr33n M4n on Nov 16, 2020, 12:02:01 PM
Only cowards delete their posts. I love what you're doing here TurokSwe, keep it up bro. Some people are arrogant and won't admit that they're wrong. They always want to be right instead of seeing what's right in front of them.
Thank you, appreciate it, and I couldn't agree more! It can be a real nuisance sometimes, but you gotta keep going and keep trying. Perhaps eventually the person will come to their senses. :)
Oh hell naw.
QuoteIn the Alien movies, Ripley does in fact believe that the aliens pose a great threat to earth and any other civilations that may encounter them, her fears about the aliens is why she goes back to acheon, as she wants them wiped out.
Sil is right in that this is the message the movie gives us, even if only through Ripley's perspective.
That's a good one, let's try that!
"The driving force of the main protagonist in the original films is to stop them getting to Earth as she fears this will lead to a catastrophe that threatens all life as we know it; the AvP films show that this is not the case, and that her deepest fears are unfounded, thus undermining her motivation."
Maybe that's easy enough? I don't know.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 12:26:18 PM
Maybe that's easy enough? I don't know.
The eternal optimist.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 12:21:20 PM
The point is to prevent them getting to Earth, so that a major cataclysm doesn't occur.
AvP shows that said cataclysm won't occur if they get to Earth, so the depth of her concern is undermined.
There are so many ways to state this simple concept, I am sure we will find one that clicks for you. You're already halfway there acknowledging that Ripley's doomsday scenario doesn't occur, now we just need you to get to the point where you comprehend the fact that means her worst fears were unfounded.
It's clearly going to take a long time, but we're patient.
I'm patient, and I'll keep trying to clarify our disagreement until it gets through. Yes, the point is to keep them from reaching Earth so that Earth is out of danger in general and not exclusively from any global infestation, which is only the worst case scenario.
AVP doesn't show that a global infestation will never happen, it just shows Earth civilizations not only being in great danger but actually being overrun and eradicated by Xenomorphs which are taken out before they reach any closer to a global infestation. Ripley's concerns are not only more emotionally based rather than factually based but her concerns are also just general concerns for her homeworld in general, and it has never been solely about global extent. She doesn't want humans to encounter Xenomorphs at all, and a global infestation would only be the worst case scenario.
AVP remains perfectly consistent with what we know from the previous films in regards to how dangerous Xenomorphs are, it doesn't "undermine" this in any way, but (yet again) it only undermines your ridiculous expectation that the moment a Xenomorph touches down on Earth it's immediately and irreversibly game over. It's not reasonable, especially after having watched all the films. A global infestation is entirely possible, depending on circumstances, but it has never been definitively true that a global infestation will inevitably occur the moment a Xenomorph reaches Earth. I've said this enough times already that it should have gotten through.
A Xeno on Earth would definitely be damaging. But I don't think that it would just spread to every continent wiping out humanity.
Cool but that was literally Ripley's concern and a major driving force of what she does.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 16, 2020, 12:38:28 PM
I'll keep trying to clarify our disagreement until it gets through.
You
must realize by now how completely futile that is right?
Quote from: The Cruentus on Nov 16, 2020, 12:22:30 PM
In the Alien movies, Ripley does in fact believe that the aliens pose a great threat to earth and any other civilations that may encounter them, her fears about the aliens is why she goes back to acheon, as she wants them wiped out.
Sil is right in that this is the message the movie gives us, even if only through Ripley's perspective.
Does this mean its certain? No, Ripley could easily be overestimating the threat. She is a human being with human flaws and presumptions and bias are flaws she displays frequently,
Ripley does have good cause for them though, getting attacked by an android could make you dislike/distrust androds. Being considered a secondary concern and expendable by someone in the company is going to make you distrust the company and getting nearly killed by an alien is obviously going to leave an impression.
The point here is that Ripley's views are personal to her past experiences. She genuinely believes the Alien to be a doomsday threat, she initially believed that androids couldn't be trusted and she definitely believed that the company would kill anyone who witnessed an alien. The message she gives to people are clear, that the alien cannot ever reach earth or everyone will die.
It doesn't necessarily mean she is correct though, this is just the scenerio that Ripley and by consequence, the movie is painting for us.
As for AVP, that film suggests that her fears are mostly just that, fears. the aliens are shown to be fairly easily contained and in fact it would probably be simple incompetent retaliation towards the aliens threat that would lead them to be able to spread. The flashback in AVP is actually baffling when you consider that there should only be the same amount of aliens as there were sacrifices, it would take either outright inaction or incompetent behavior to allow such a city wide spread, it should presumably take days of inaction for everyone in the city to be implanted or killed.
That all being said, that doesn't mean such a spread couldn't happen either, small towns with little defence or knowledge of the aliens such as Hadley's Hope, could be overrun completely. So an unprepared settlement or city could be lost but those with knowledge on the aliens should be able to contain them fairly well.
You make some good points here. Except I think it's pretty clear AVP realizes the fears Ripley had and brings them to life, they're just not the worst case scenario, but they still show a real terrible outcome of bringing Xenomorphs to Earth and why we shouldn't allow them to return. I think all the films we had thus far have shown the Xenomorphs to be pretty easily contained and eradicated with very little effort from very few individuals though.
It doesn't bring them to life because life as we know it isn't wiped out.
How is this so hard for you? Just honestly, how?
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 12:46:41 PM
It doesn't bring them to life because life as we know it isn't wiped out.
How is this so hard for you? Just honestly, how?
Quote from: SM on Nov 16, 2020, 03:59:43 AM
QuoteFeel free to elaborate or this can just be disregarded as yet another of your regular misrepresentations of the other person.
I don't think it's a misrepresentation to say that you've written thousands of words on your website calling effectively others - who have worked in the franchise in an official capacity - liars (https://sites.google.com/view/xenoversecenter/xenoblog/2020-archive/exploring-canonicity-in-the-alien-and-predator-universe#h.rxse4jli5a70).
I think olm8 answered this.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 16, 2020, 12:44:50 PM
Quote from: The Cruentus on Nov 16, 2020, 12:22:30 PM
In the Alien movies, Ripley does in fact believe that the aliens pose a great threat to earth and any other civilations that may encounter them, her fears about the aliens is why she goes back to acheon, as she wants them wiped out.
Sil is right in that this is the message the movie gives us, even if only through Ripley's perspective.
Does this mean its certain? No, Ripley could easily be overestimating the threat. She is a human being with human flaws and presumptions and bias are flaws she displays frequently,
Ripley does have good cause for them though, getting attacked by an android could make you dislike/distrust androds. Being considered a secondary concern and expendable by someone in the company is going to make you distrust the company and getting nearly killed by an alien is obviously going to leave an impression.
The point here is that Ripley's views are personal to her past experiences. She genuinely believes the Alien to be a doomsday threat, she initially believed that androids couldn't be trusted and she definitely believed that the company would kill anyone who witnessed an alien. The message she gives to people are clear, that the alien cannot ever reach earth or everyone will die.
It doesn't necessarily mean she is correct though, this is just the scenerio that Ripley and by consequence, the movie is painting for us.
As for AVP, that film suggests that her fears are mostly just that, fears. the aliens are shown to be fairly easily contained and in fact it would probably be simple incompetent retaliation towards the aliens threat that would lead them to be able to spread. The flashback in AVP is actually baffling when you consider that there should only be the same amount of aliens as there were sacrifices, it would take either outright inaction or incompetent behavior to allow such a city wide spread, it should presumably take days of inaction for everyone in the city to be implanted or killed.
That all being said, that doesn't mean such a spread couldn't happen either, small towns with little defence or knowledge of the aliens such as Hadley's Hope, could be overrun completely. So an unprepared settlement or city could be lost but those with knowledge on the aliens should be able to contain them fairly well.
You make some good points here. Except I think it's pretty clear AVP realizes the fears Ripley had and brings them to life, they're just not the worst case scenario, but they still show a real terrible outcome of bringing Xenomorphs to Earth and why we shouldn't allow them to return. I think all the films we had thus far have shown the Xenomorphs to be pretty easily contained and eradicated with very little effort from very few individuals though.
Yes, but Sil's point is that the alien movies through Ripley's own personal perspective is that she genuinely fears that the Aliens could pose such a threat to a civilized world. Its her driving force and motivation in killing them all and even herself. That's the message we get from her. Whether she is right or wrong is moot as its the fear of such potential outcome and the actions taken to avoid is the behavior we see in the alien movies.
AVP downplays her fears greatly by making her death almost pointless, because the aliens can be contained fairly well. So Ripley could have taken Michael's offer and have had a life. This assuming that they would be competently contained of course. Could Aliens take down cities? sure, but there are variables at play there.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 12:26:18 PM
QuoteIn the Alien movies, Ripley does in fact believe that the aliens pose a great threat to earth and any other civilations that may encounter them, her fears about the aliens is why she goes back to acheon, as she wants them wiped out.
Sil is right in that this is the message the movie gives us, even if only through Ripley's perspective.
That's a good one, let's try that!
"The driving force of the main protagonist in the original films is to stop them getting to Earth as she fears this will lead to a catastrophe that threatens all life as we know it; the AvP films show that this is not the case, and that her deepest fears are unfounded, thus undermining her motivation."
Maybe that's easy enough? I don't know.
But the
AVP films does show that Xenomorphs on Earth leads to catastrophes that threatens all life on Earth, and they were only eradicated before they ever reached the point of a global infestation. It remains perfectly consistent with the previous films in demonstrating that her fears of what Xenomorphs on Earth could do are realized (just not to the unreasonable extent that you personally argue). Her motivation is never undermined in
AVP, but it's affirming her fears and demonstrating why we can't let Xenomorphs ever reach Earth. How could they be "unfounded"?
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 16, 2020, 12:51:45 PM
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 12:26:18 PM
QuoteIn the Alien movies, Ripley does in fact believe that the aliens pose a great threat to earth and any other civilations that may encounter them, her fears about the aliens is why she goes back to acheon, as she wants them wiped out.
Sil is right in that this is the message the movie gives us, even if only through Ripley's perspective.
That's a good one, let's try that!
"The driving force of the main protagonist in the original films is to stop them getting to Earth as she fears this will lead to a catastrophe that threatens all life as we know it; the AvP films show that this is not the case, and that her deepest fears are unfounded, thus undermining her motivation."
Maybe that's easy enough? I don't know.
But the AVP films does show that Xenomorphs on Earth leads to catastrophes that threatens all life on Earth, and they were only eradicated before they ever reached the point of a global infestation. It remains perfectly consistent with the previous films in demonstrating that her fears of what Xenomorphs on Earth could do are realized (just not to the unreasonable extent that you personally argue). Her motivation is never undermined in AVP, but it's affirming her fears and demonstrating why we can't let Xenomorphs ever reach Earth. How could they be "unfounded"?
Jesus f**king christ
Quote from: Gr33n M4n on Nov 16, 2020, 12:43:17 PM
A Xeno on Earth would definitely be damaging. But I don't think that it would just spread to every continent wiping out humanity.
Not immediately or inevitably anyway, and it certainly wouldn't be impossible to defeat them any more than it was in the past films.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 12:44:07 PM
Cool but that was literally Ripley's concern and a major driving force of what she does.
What?
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 16, 2020, 12:44:18 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 16, 2020, 12:38:28 PM
I'll keep trying to clarify our disagreement until it gets through.
You must realize by now how completely futile that is right?
It always seems futile until you find success.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 12:46:41 PM
It doesn't bring them to life because life as we know it isn't wiped out.
How is this so hard for you? Just honestly, how?
Come again? Her fears weren't exclusively that all life would be wiped out, but they were again very general fears that people would be exposed to Xenomorphs, and a global cataclysm would only be the worst case scenario of her fears, but still not exclusively what constitutes her fears. I don't see how this is so difficult for you to grasp.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Nov 16, 2020, 12:51:37 PM
Yes, but Sil's point is that the alien movies through Ripley's own personal perspective is that she genuinely fears that the Aliens could pose such a threat to a civilized world. Its her driving force and motivation in killing them all and even herself. That's the message we get from her. Whether she is right or wrong is moot as its the fear of such potential outcome and the actions taken to avoid is the behavior we see in the alien movies.
AVP downplays her fears greatly by making her death almost pointless, because the aliens can be contained fairly well. So Ripley could have taken Michael's offer and have had a life. This assuming that they would be competently contained of course. Could Aliens take down cities? sure, but there are variables at play there.
I hear what you're saying, but I'm afraid I don't see how
AVP supposedly downplays her fears rather than affirming them. Xenomorphs are incredibly dangerous and you can't trust that anyone would be able to contain them, and
AVP like the previous films proves as much, and because of how dangerous they are you wouldn't risk letting Xenomorphs survive and spread to anywhere, but they need to be eradicated regardless. She can't take a risk like that, especially after knowing from
AVP and
AVPR what a potential infestation could accomplish. There's no way anyone in their right mind would let that happen.
Maybe try rewatching the films and get back to us? She's not vague. She never mentions some low-level general anxiety; she's pretty thoroughly apocalyptic on the subject. AvP shows said widespread devastation doesn't happen. AvP clearly and repeatedly shows in both movies that it doesn't get as bad as she fears even when things go wrong.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 16, 2020, 01:07:15 PM
Maybe try rewatching the films and get back to us? She's not vague. She never mentions some low-level general anxiety; she's pretty thoroughly apocalyptic on the subject. AvP shows said widespread devastation doesn't happen.
We've had this conversation multiple times already. Don't start it all over as if I never said anything. Ripley is indeed showing great anxiety and certainly including apocalyptic concerns, and I have still never said anything different, and
AVP only affirms those concerns. It just never reaches true worldwide devastation in those particular instances, but that doesn't mean it could never happen, it just means it didn't come to fulfillment during these particular events and they were stopped before they ever reached worldwide devastation, just like Ripley and company stopped multiple smaller infestations. If going by this logic of yours, then Ripley shouldn't even have been able to stop any of these infestations she encountered, and every time they would be the absolute worst case scenario and neither she or anybody would ever survive.
This very argument is the main reason I lost all faith in the AVP film when Anderson said it was set on present day Earth. I'm with the majority here, it clearly undermines Ripley's fight across the original trilogy of films when Anderson tried to suggest that numerous Aliens infestations had already occurred in Earth's past. This claim was made even more bizarre when Antarctica was chosen as the film's setting because in Anderson's own words 'it was the closest place on Earth to represent an alien planet.' Then why not just set it on an alien planet?
I know this is spiralling off into a different argument, but what was the point of the present day earth setting? Even if the Aliens got to the surface of Bovatoya, where were they going to go? Not only does the earth setting undermine the original films, the setting nullifies the very threat it is trying to create. I don't think i'll ever understand what goes through Paul Anderson's head when he is trying to be a writer.
Just nuke this thread from the orbit. That's the only way to be sure
I'm locking this immensely painful thread until I have chance to go through and split it off into it's own inane and obstinate thread. I'd also like to take the opportunity to remind people about this rule -
Quote- Trolling will not be tolerated here. Trolls will be banned.