Hope this is posted in the right section and my pictures load properly in attachments- Did look for threads going into discussions about anatomy and mouths but couldn't find anything.
I did a few diagrams of possible mouth mechanisms for Xenomophs, mainly based on Alien (1979) and Aliens (1986) as well as some other references. As far as I know there is not a lot of research into the anatomy (I guess because people get killed before they have a chance to really look over them) but I would love to see what people think? A few different options I thought up which could work logistically, but I am sure other people have their own theories.
Perhaps it is possible different sub species of them have different internal mouth mechanisms?
If anyone would like a blank cut away section of the Alien head to draw in their own idea for how the mouth could work I can provide high res and also PSD files.
Also if anyone has anything from comics or games I have not seen please do share!
Thanks!
I still think it is nothing more than a hydraulic piston. If it is connected to the throat I doubt it. I think it operates more like a killer tongue.
I also don't think the tongue incorporates the throat. Why else would the creature have a main mouth instead of just a sheathing for protection maybe? The tongue is probably not a tongue at all. Just a weapon that retracts when the alien feeds.
Quote from: bobby brown on Nov 19, 2017, 02:18:17 PM
I also don't think the tongue incorporates the throat. Why else would the creature have a main mouth instead of just a sheathing for protection maybe? The tongue is probably not a tongue at all. Just a weapon that retracts when the alien feeds.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Nov 19, 2017, 01:50:52 PM
I still think it is nothing more than a hydraulic piston. If it is connected to the throat I doubt it. I think it operates more like a killer tongue.
Yeah I don't feel like the throat would go right down the middle of the inner mouth? If it was then I feel like it would use the mouth to eat then it would put it out and leave it out to nibble food (like a insects proboscis?). Basically a big long straw.
Maybe there are comics or clear images of the smaller jaws that have an opening down the middle? I seem to recall AVP:R having a scene where one is eating and its mouth goes in and out rather then staying in a fixed position, perhaps grabbing little bits of food to pull into bigger mouth or maybe just 'tenderising' the meal lol
I'm less interested in the topic than I am in the quality of your diagrams. Excellent work. Do you have more?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 19, 2017, 05:14:37 PM
I'm less interested in the topic than I am in the quality of your diagrams. Excellent work. Do you have more?
Hey thanks so much! I did them as a treat for finishing some commissions.
I don't yet but I am planning on working out how a Queens Egg Sac works in the same way because I would like to make an attachment for my Neca Queen accurately : )
Thumbs up on diagrams. I'm in the same camp that it's inner-jaw's ability to shoot out is not connected in some way with the throat. Shoot your own tongue out and notice its your muscular organ that creates that action. Little to nothing about your throat is involved.
On the other hand, this is a fictional alien, so anything goes on creating fan fiction.
(https://imgur.com/XVn4RSG.jpg)
Excellent work!
I'm not sure if the Anchorpoint Essays ever did any studies on how the mouth works.
Only thing to consider would be how the mouth can go right through a head or torso, so may be a bit longer, and the fact it's 'flaccid' when not being used to strike. I know you were mainly using Alien and Aliens, but the ideas and pictures you've done are great.
Quote from: SM on Nov 19, 2017, 07:32:18 PM
Excellent work!
I'm not sure if the Anchorpoint Essays ever did any studies on how the mouth works.
Only thing to consider would be how the mouth can go right through a head or torso, so may be a bit longer, and the fact it's 'flaccid' when not being used to strike. I know you were mainly using Alien and Aliens, but the ideas and pictures you've done are great.
Anchorpoint did do some studies on the tongue. The tongue may be soft and limp in it's natural state but become rigid (like a penis) when used. The one Ripley pulled from the dead Alien was soft enough to be torn from the mouth.
The OP's "concertina" theory is interesting. Something similar appeared in ALIEN: THE ILLUSTRATED STORY:
(https://imgur.com/XTXYMe3.jpg)
The flaccid tongue was one of the best inventions Resurrection had, but is it just another by-product of the cloning? I would like to think the tongue on a "pure-bred" Alien is the same. Although if the tongue is a completely solid piston, it would explain partially why the head is so long?
Quote from: Elmazalman on Nov 19, 2017, 07:26:22 PM
(https://imgur.com/XVn4RSG.jpg)
Stuff like this is exactly what I was hoping someone would know of for me! Thank you!
Sadly, when I followed the paper trail for this looking for an english translation; Turns out its all silly nonsense translated with google and not actually scientific theories or ideas lol
But I did find his sketch which is gorgeous.
Quote from: Xenomania on Nov 19, 2017, 11:36:17 PM
The flaccid tongue was one of the best inventions Resurrection had, but is it just another by-product of the cloning? I would like to think the tongue on a "pure-bred" Alien is the same. Although if the tongue is a completely solid piston, it would explain partially why the head is so long?
I like the flaccid tongue idea as well, with it being quite soft and bendy when not used to attack. It seems very fitting for the overall design to have- Like Elmazalman and SM state about it being like a penis. Perhaps even prehensile which is shown in some movies where it does bend for the sides slightly to 'wiggle' this isn't unlike how whales reproductive organs work (while still being able to tuck away of course).
As for Resurrection (1997) I went back to have a really close look at how their mouth parts work in it and remembering that Ripley 8 is 'super strong' thanks to the cloning process- she is able to completely bend the tongue when flaccid in a very compact way. I grabbed some screen shots, banged the brightness up and tried to go over them to illustrate this point and also looked hard at the torn end which??? Looks a lot like the chameleon inspired design with the elastic skin and the tendons?
Perhaps when the inner mouth is lined up with it's inner rod (the firing piston) it is extremely strong and can fire the toothed end off like a bolt gun. But when pushed from the sides or using the internal muscles to shift it around, its very soft and malleable.
Would the inner mouth be attached to the upper (skull) or lower jaw as well?
Also I made a new theory about their inner mouths and it is by far the best theory of them all.
Maybe AR's goofy context colored my perception, but I always thought the flaccid tongue looked silly. Your new diagram goes a long way toward changing my mind though.
Do you have any full-body anatomical diagrams or maybe some conjectural ones featuring the development of cranium under the carapace over time? ;D
MOAR!
(https://imgur.com/MwMg4U7.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/MiPhJBz.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/N9GEoby.jpg)
Sci-Fi & Fantasy FX #48. Pg 26 & 27.
Giger added the tongue because he thought such a long head should serve a purpose. I always liked the idea that the tongue starts further back along the head and that's why it has so much force. Imagine three feet of muscle and hydraulics pushing that thing forward.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 20, 2017, 09:16:57 PM
Giger added the tongue because he thought such a long head should serve a purpose. I always liked the idea that the tongue starts further along the head and that's why it has so much force. Imagine three feet of muscle and hydraulics pushing that thing forward.
It shattered Parker's skull with very little resistance. That takes some impressive force to achieve.
Awesome work on your diagrams, Killveous!
I'm definitely of the opinion that the inner mouth is directly connected to the throat - we explicitly see Aliens use the inner mouth for feeding in 'AvP: Requiem' as well as some of the comics ('Aliens: Labyrinth' off the top of my head) and as a gameplay mechanic in all 3 AvP FPS games.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 20, 2017, 09:16:57 PM
Giger added the tongue because he thought such a long head should serve a purpose. I always liked the idea that the tongue starts further back along the head and that's why it has so much force. Imagine three feet of muscle and hydraulics pushing that thing forward.
To spin off from this, perhaps part of the elongated head is used as a sort of diaphragm to ram the inner mouth forward, similar to the mechanism that makes our lungs inflate and deflate.
Quote from: SM on Nov 19, 2017, 07:32:18 PM
I'm not sure if the Anchorpoint Essays ever did any studies on how the mouth works.
Here you go -
QuotePerhaps the most interesting, and disturbing, feature of the adult I. raptus are the vicious, and incredibly powerful, secondary jaws. These jaws are part of a modified tongue, and are used in an offensive, rather than defensive, manner. The tongue is approximately 50cm in length with a striking distance of up to 40mm from the creature's mouth. The organ would appear to be comprised almost entirely of muscle with an external structure that is similar to cartilage in design. This design offers a flexible range of movement while retaining enough tensile strength to withstand the crushing impact of bone, or other rigid material.
In a relaxed state the tongue is relatively flaccid. It isn't known if the jaws located at the anterior end of the tongue serve a purpose in this state (i.e. - the aid in moving food from the mouth into the throat, etc.), or if the jaws sole function is that of maiming prey. In a state of activity the tongue becomes extremely rigid, yet remains flexible to a limited degree so as to withstand the force of impact with bone or other such solid material.
The primary use of the secondary jaws is as a means of crippling prey so as to immobilize perspective host organisms. The Nostromo's Chief Engineer and Warrant Officer reported that Chief Engineer's Mate Brett was still screaming and moving of his own accord even after the primary attack was over. Corporal D. Hicks of the 2nd Bat. 9th Reg. USCM also reported that the squad Sergeant was recorded as still being alive, by the APC's TOC, even after a direct blow to the face. Records also, though somewhat vague, seem to indicate that General Perez, of the Auriga, was still conscious following a direct blow to the back of the skull.
When used in an attack on the cranium the Alien has the strength to thrust these jaws with such force as to shatter the surrounding cranial surface on impact (the tensile strength of the tongue during such an attack is far greater than bone). The result is a large crater of bone and flesh. The articulation of the jaws furthers the damage of the strike: when the tongue reaches its maximum strike length (approx. 40cm) the jaws close and the tongue is retracted, causing severe tearing of the surrounding tissue. It has been observed that prior to such an attack there is an intense and sharp oral inhalation of air. Considering theories that revolve around the Alien's respiration it is believed that the Alien's secondary jaws and tongue may be the biological equivalent to a pneumatic piston. Through this theory the air is brought in and contained in a small chamber, or group of chambers, connected to the posterior end of the tongue. Once the desired pressure has reached it is released with an explosive force thrusting the secondary jaws out of the mouth. The muscle of the tongue then acts as a spring retracting it back into the mouth completing the strike. With the onset of this theory new considerations have been made about the possible reasoning for the shape of the head.
The Exobiology guild has recently put forth an interesting theory that presents the secondary jaws being used primarily in food intake. The maiming of prey is then seen as a secondary application. Through this theory I. raptus relies almost exclusively on expectorating its own reactive fluids onto a food source, and then using the tongue as a form of siphon to pull in the liquefied material. The teeth and mandibles that tip the tongue are then used in the tearing and ingesting small portions of soft tissue when expectoration is not required. The theory came about during a study of the Alien's over all physical structure and proportions: it was felt that the neck - in order to support the head - needed to be comprised largely of muscle, thereby leaving little room for an esophagus designed for ingesting large pieces of food. However, given current views on the incorporation of carbon on the Alien's exoskeleton the amount of musculature employed in the neck for head support may be lessened in favor of allowing the strength of the exoskeleton to absorb most of the supportive needs.
It would also appear that these jaws could be used as an aggressive display of strength or as a threatening gesture. Several instances were recorded from LV-426 in which the secondary jaws were displayed prior to any attack occurring. It has been assumed that this is a threatening posture.
Interestingly, the Alien can utilize the secondary jaws as primates would a hand or an arm. As was recorded aboard the Auriga: an Alien (believed to be the Alpha from the group contained in the Quarantine Containment Cell 3 - see the Social Behavior essay for more on this) used its tongue to activated the liquid Nitrogen fail-safe inside the cell to deliberately kill a member of the crew. It would appear that I. raptus - like rats or other such animals - does not readily recognize the ability to employ limbs or extremities when performing a specific action, even when the button or lever is within reach of the limbs. Just as a rat conditioned to push a lever to acquire food will use it's snout, so will an Alien use it's head or secondary jaws (this is also evident in the Alien testing the plexi-shield of the cell with its head as opposed to its hand or arm). Though the creature may understand the reaction that will follow the act of pressing a button it may not understand its design, or intended implemantary use.
Retrieved via WayBack.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 23, 2017, 08:27:04 AM
I'm definitely of the opinion that the inner mouth is directly connected to the throat - we explicitly see Aliens use the inner mouth for feeding in 'AvP: Requiem' as well as some of the comics ('Aliens: Labyrinth' off the top of my head) and as a gameplay mechanic in all 3 AvP FPS games.
I think OP is only interested in
canon sources.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 23, 2017, 01:12:30 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 23, 2017, 08:27:04 AM
I'm definitely of the opinion that the inner mouth is directly connected to the throat - we explicitly see Aliens use the inner mouth for feeding in 'AvP: Requiem' as well as some of the comics ('Aliens: Labyrinth' off the top of my head) and as a gameplay mechanic in all 3 AvP FPS games.
I think OP is only interested in canon sources.
You're probably being facetious, but the OP specifically asked for game and comic stuff:
Quote from: Killveous on Nov 19, 2017, 01:03:43 PM
Also if anyone has anything from comics or games I have not seen please do share!
Thanks!
Actually, I was focusing on the AvPR reference. How DARE you?
:D fair enough
As a total package the movie is a mess, but there are individual elements of it that I like.
Then again I've seen plenty of bad movies where I've walked away saying, "that was a bad movie, but [this particular thing] was well done". I can't think of many movies I've seen where I concluded that it was a total waste of my time.
Hahaha, oh you two~ I like to look at all sources, though do agree on part with Local Trouble that the AVP:R movie is not really one I look into for much depth.
However, I think the movie itself actually does prove a certain point here; We do see an Alien apparently feeding with his inner mouth. What we see is him striking repeatedly, biting and pulling back. If the throat was all the way through from the inner mouth then surely, he could keep it extended to take pieces of food, or simply move it up and down in shorter bursts rather than retract it in it's entirety into his primary mouth.
I have tried to demonstrate what I mean with Pringles (which is now an ongoing joke between me and friends about how the only reason for the inner jaw to be so long is because they can reach the last pringle in the can) and honestly having the throat running through the middle just seems unlikely.
Perhaps he is tenderising his meal only, perhaps he has to retract it to swallow what he grabs inside the inner jaw? Or perhaps the inner jaw is not just a weapon but also a part sensory organ like our own tongues which taste but also collect scents much like snakes can to better track prey. It's not like that huge head doesn't have lots of room for more sensory organs like a vomeronasal tucked in there.
As for Corporal Hicks; Thank you for all that- again, this is more stuff I have no knowledge of prier and I love learning more here!
The idea of controlled power of the inner mouth is very exciting. This part here;
"The primary use of the secondary jaws is as a means of crippling prey so as to immobilize perspective host organisms." Is very interesting.
This means they can use their inner jaws to stun their victim as well as kill outright depending on the force they utilise and the needs of the Xenomorph. Better control means a likely more complex mechanism. And while we may think being smashed in the face means instant death; there are many cases of grievous skull trauma which does not kill. Someone who was in a car accident had their face crushed in entirely but was able to survive. You can see the before and after scans in attachments (I won't add the photos as they are quite distressing) which gives a very good idea of how a Xenomorph may be able to bash your face in and stun you senseless and you are still able to survive for a period before death (most likely by being a host).
BTW thanks for all the lovely comments! Two friends are very eager for me to talk more about Alien anatomy aspects and breeding and classifications, etc etc. Might end up doing a series of things as I have hundreds of pages of theorems and study deductions though what I have needs far better illustrations that these sketches to go into depth. May do pencil work as well, to make it feel more real in hand as if it was a real scientists work.
I don't know what line of work you're in, but history has shown that what you post here may come to the attention of Fox and make its way into some officially licensed project in the future.
Have you acquired a copy of the WYR yet?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 24, 2017, 04:28:15 PM
I don't know what line of work you're in, but history has shown that what you post here may come to the attention of Fox and make its way into some officially licensed project in the future.
Have you acquired a copy of the WYR yet?
Oh do you mean that Fox will just take peoples work without credit and use it? Or you mean they approach you want to use it with permission?
I searched a bunch of stuff for WYR (which i didn't even know what it stood for when you said lol) and ??? Was this a fanmade book first? It looks very professional and well funded.
Pages like these;
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.joblo.com%2Fimages_arrownews%2Falien_int_pages23.jpg&hash=5949030bb43952d5e68fffc2027b371bbc35e539)
Look like real 3D graphic renders of the Aliens made for this book? It's awesome. I would love to make something like that but far more in depth and all about just the Aliens, not ships and people or any of that. The science of the creature is what I am hugely into.
Quote from: Killveous on Nov 24, 2017, 02:18:17 PM
BTW thanks for all the lovely comments! Two friends are very eager for me to talk more about Alien anatomy aspects and breeding and classifications, etc etc. Might end up doing a series of things as I have hundreds of pages of theorems and study deductions though what I have needs far better illustrations that these sketches to go into depth. May do pencil work as well, to make it feel more real in hand as if it was a real scientists work.
Please please do more of these types of speculation and Alien anatomy theories, I would love to see what you came up with!
Quote from: Killveous on Nov 24, 2017, 02:18:17 PM
Hahaha, oh you two~ I like to look at all sources, though do agree on part with Local Trouble that the AVP:R movie is not really one I look into for much depth.
However, I think the movie itself actually does prove a certain point here; We do see an Alien apparently feeding with his inner mouth. What we see is him striking repeatedly, biting and pulling back. If the throat was all the way through from the inner mouth then surely, he could keep it extended to take pieces of food, or simply move it up and down in shorter bursts rather than retract it in it's entirety into his primary mouth.
I have tried to demonstrate what I mean with Pringles (which is now an ongoing joke between me and friends about how the only reason for the inner jaw to be so long is because they can reach the last pringle in the can) and honestly having the throat running through the middle just seems unlikely.
Perhaps it's like the pharyngeal jaw (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharyngeal_jaw), which the moray eel uses because it lacks the ability to swallow on its own - the jaw is literally used to pull food back into its gullet. The Alien inner jaw may serve a similar purpose.
Quote from: Killveous on Nov 24, 2017, 07:11:59 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 24, 2017, 04:28:15 PM
I don't know what line of work you're in, but history has shown that what you post here may come to the attention of Fox and make its way into some officially licensed project in the future.
Have you acquired a copy of the WYR yet?
Oh do you mean that Fox will just take peoples work without credit and use it? Or you mean they approach you want to use it with permission?
A little of column A, a little of column B. :P
Fans have been contracted to do paid work on licensed projects (more often in recent years, such as with the WY Report and the forthcoming Alien Blueprints book) but other times FOX will just commandeer fan work and use it without compensation or consent (such as using SM's star chart in the backgrounds of the Anthology blu-ray, and some other example that I can't recall the particulars of offhand).
Quote from: Killveous on Nov 24, 2017, 07:11:59 PMI searched a bunch of stuff for WYR (which i didn't even know what it stood for when you said lol) and ??? Was this a fanmade book first? It looks very professional and well funded.
The Weyland-Yutani Report is an official sourcebook written by long-time Alien/AvP author S.D. Perry, but had some fan consultation and some of the artwork contracted for it was done by an artist who posts on these forums.
I have my issues with the book (short version, it's written as a coffee table book for casual fans first, and is very, very far from being a seriously structured treatise about Xenomorphs like, say, the Anchorpoint Essays or whatever) but it's worth a read. It doesn't contain anything mind-blowing or that die-hard fans didn't already know or speculate, but it's still a neat book.
Quote from: Killveous on Nov 24, 2017, 07:11:59 PM
Pages like these;
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.joblo.com%2Fimages_arrownews%2Falien_int_pages23.jpg&hash=5949030bb43952d5e68fffc2027b371bbc35e539)
Look like real 3D graphic renders of the Aliens made for this book? It's awesome. I would love to make something like that but far more in depth and all about just the Aliens, not ships and people or any of that. The science of the creature is what I am hugely into.
You might also be interested in the recent Book of Alien: Augmented Reality Survival Manual (https://www.amazon.com/Book-Alien-Augmented-Reality-Survival/dp/0062695363) - it's got similar content and presentation to the WY Report but presented from a slightly different perspective. I'm still reading the AR Manual right now so I can't comment on the total package, but so far it feels like a companion book to the WY Report.
Xenomrph already answered all of OP's questions for me, yet neglected to mention that the pic she posted from the WYR was made by locusta (one of our posters). Check it out...
http://bite-it-locusta.blogspot.com (http://bite-it-locusta.blogspot.com/)
http://locusta.deviantart.com/gallery/27164662/My-ALIEN-fanwork
Thanks for posting locusta's name - I was phone-posting at the time and couldn't remember his name.
Xenomrph is a lady?
No, OP is.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 25, 2017, 12:45:55 AM
but other times FOX will just commandeer fan work and use it without compensation or consent (such as using SM's star chart in the backgrounds of the Anthology blu-ray, and some other example that I can't recall the particulars of offhand).
Hey, thanks for the heads up. I never really post my images at fullres due to having my work stolen and traced n stuff before (also my work being used in a roosterteeth video once haha). But I will be very keen to keep any of my art quite downsized and watermarked here if it is something I spent more time on... which leads me to the next bit;
I had a book project lined up for this coming year but due to work expanding in a different direction I may want to do Xeno stuff in my spare time instead. What I really want is some extremely detailed anatomy images that cut deep into the Alien and take a real scientific stab at it and voice my own theories. I would love to do images in the style of Stubbs or Ellenberger (examples attached below) but utilise the more futuristic aesthetic I pickpocketed for these quick digital mocks ups which is a combination of Giger's and Cobb's work seen here which I loved finding on this sites archives!;
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/alien3/conceptart/gigerconcept19.jpg)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/alien/conceptart/cobb19.jpg)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/alien/conceptart/cobb20.jpg)
I was kinda mucking about and having a giggle for the most part but if people do like this sort of stuff then I sure will give it my all.
I can understand people really adoring the in depth details and cutaways into ships, machinery, weaponry; Like Xenomrph said the Blueprint book is coming out. But no one seems overly keen to cut into a Xenomorph and see what they can find (maybe because it takes away the mystery?)
I do have a lot more questions to ask on these forums, especially considering the reproductive cycle concerning how eggs are formed among other things and everyone's been
super positive and helpfulfinding info to share from all sorts of sauces for me to pull on.
I recently brought an old Alien the Archive book off ebay- but if anyone wants to trade me a WYR book for some alien or pred art then direct message me lol, otherwise gotta save my pennies again haha 🙂
Wouldn't it make sense that the long head holds the length of the tongue rather than the throat. Such a force thrusts forward rather than coming up from the throat.
Quote from: Killveous on Nov 25, 2017, 08:08:38 PM
I can understand people really adoring the in depth details and cutaways into ships, machinery, weaponry; Like Xenomrph said the Blueprint book is coming out. But no one seems overly keen to cut into a Xenomorph and see what they can find (maybe because it takes away the mystery?)
I think a lot of it is because it takes away the mystery. The USCM Tech Manual has a whole chapter about exploring Alien biology, but the end result of the chapter is that no one knows anything new and stuff is more confusing than when it started. That wasn't done by accident.
Likewise, the comic series 'Aliens: Labyrinth' literally has a scene where they dissect an Alien's head and talk about its biology, but then later in the story the Aliens are shown doing totally insane shit to Church's family that turns everything upside-down.
I think a lot of the reason why people reacted poorly to 'Alien: Covenant's idea that David may have "invented" the Xenomorph is that it ruins the mystery - it takes the Alien, an unknowable space-beast with impossible biology, and turns it into something anyone could create in a lab given the proper tools. Sure, the specifics of the Black Goo and how or why it does what it does are still huge question marks, but it still undermines the Alien in the same way that a caveman conquering fire does - the caveman might not understand the specific chemical and physical processes behind the creation of fire, but the fire is still less scary and mysterious because he knows he can create it at will.
I'm not saying a detailed art book exploring Alien biology is a bad idea - the Anchorpoint Essays is a cool website, after all, and talking about this stuff can be interesting and lead to neat creative tangents. There's just a really difficult and really important balancing act of showcasing the Alien's incredible and mysterious biology without compromising that mystery and turning it into the Veterinary Anatomy Coloring Book.
Not to mention, there's a lot of technical challenges - these are ultimately fictional creatures, and their designs and abilities vary from movie to movie (and that's if you restrict yourself to only the movies). That's often due to deliberate storytelling reasons, or technical limitations of the props, or visual design decisions. You can spend the rest of your life trying to reconcile the changes from movie to movie, but broad, sweeping generalizations like "it came from a dog" or "they're older" or "they're genetic aberrations due to cloning" to try and explain every change tend to fall apart under any sort of close scrutiny, not to mention it assumes 'Alien' is the "pure" baseline and everything else deviates from it, and not the other way around.
So would this hypothetical biology book only look at the Alien design from one movie? If it looks at multiple movies, does it even bother trying to reconcile the differences? If anything, I think it should play those differences up, emphasizing that the Alien doesn't have a singular set design.
The book is out of print, but if you can track down a copy of the Warhammer40k reference book Xenology (https://www.amazon.com/Xenology-Research-Bestiary-Warhammer-2006-02-28/dp/B01K3JQYUM), I highly recommend it. Aside from the artwork being super cool and the meta-narrative being a lot of fun, it does a great job of doing what I think a good "Alien Biology" reference book should do - it explains some things in purely biological terms that are understandable, but has a lot of surprises and unexplainable stuff that still keep the alien races interesting. If I were putting together an Alien Biology book, I'd absolutely use "Xenology" as the benchmark in terms of tone and content.
You're treading very close to heresy. >:(
(https://i.imgur.com/rI36iYn.jpg)
Thanks Xenomrph; yeah, I totally get where you are coming from. I view the Xenomorph as an animal to be studied rather than a metaphorical space creature that has no rules our boundaries which is the way the first film plays out. It's a cryptic legitimate monster and many people want it to stay that way.
I am not that way inclined, I want to know, I want to look at it, and I like looking at pretty pictures which explain possible ways things work. Which is why I really enjoyed a lot of the 40K lore actually haha.
Oddly enough I own a few books for it, though not the one you pointed out. The one I had was for the Space Marines and how they are developed from normality into war machines with all these new upgrades and like, a special organ that lets them understand the area better by eating native animals- stuff like that! I love that sort of stuff so much! And my mindset for this project followed along those sorts of lines. It would be a scientific journal of sorts, with many illustrations by our 'Scientist Author' with the story slowly coming to light the further into the journal you go. By the time you get to the end it is less intricate illustrations of Alien parts, variations between breeds, life cycle progress- etc etc, and more a horrorscape of conceptual work that ends abruptly without a real conclusion.
I have a few ideas planned out and it would focus on around six individual Xenomorphs of different breeds that are available. This allows me to draw lots of illustrations showing different crests, hands, feet, tails, all those details which varies between films and comics that I find most interesting.
There would be many references noting these are just the creatures available- that there are likely more and may have completely different biology to the ones studied (and these are all Xenos birthed from the same human hosts- again, limiting huger variations).
This would be my disclaimer as to why 'Oh but this doesn't have the Alien from the genocide comics!' Or so and so Alien from other works; because our Scientist Author writing the journal has not seen those ones 😉 I duno if that would work but it would allow me to just draw the ones I want and have good references to fall back on.
I would though need to ask a LOT more questions about certain things; I should def make further threads focusing on the back tubes, the Queens Egg Sac and the actual head crest and brains. Just to see what the general consensus is for them, every ones been super helpful and helped me solidify a better idea of how I think the mouth parts could work. :)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 26, 2017, 07:29:11 PM
You're treading very close to heresy. >:(
wink wink nudge nudge
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPk0XS5W4AAmqbz.jpg)
QuoteThanks Xenomrph; yeah, I totally get where you are coming from. I view the Xenomorph as an animal to be studied rather than a metaphorical space creature that has no rules our boundaries which is the way the first film plays out. It's a cryptic legitimate monster and many people want it to stay that way.
I am not that way inclined, I want to know, I want to look at it, and I like looking at pretty pictures which explain possible ways things work. Which is why I really enjoyed a lot of the 40K lore actually haha.
It's worth pointing out that the Xenomorph only has "rules" insofar as they're useful to the storyteller at the time. A good practical example is Alien acid (and the USCM Tech Manual tackles this exact topic - and we're talking about a book that only dealt with 2 movies at the time). How strong is Alien acid, and what can it do? These properties vary from movie to movie (and sometimes, within the same movie) to suit the situation at hand. The acid is only as capable as the storyteller needs it to be at that exact moment.
Re: 40k, I'm a big fan of 40k's lore, and there's a ton of inconsistencies and apparent contradictions within it, but Games Workshop has a really interesting and entertaining in-built way to handwave it all: when they want to change something (like, say, the entire Necron backstory when they got a new codex), they just... do it. When fans ask which one is true, the answer is "they're both true". When fans say "but that doesn't make sense", GW's answer has been "the Warp works in mysterious ways, also Imperium record-keeping has always been garbage."
QuoteI have a few ideas planned out and it would focus on around six individual Xenomorphs of different breeds that are available. This allows me to draw lots of illustrations showing different crests, hands, feet, tails, all those details which varies between films and comics that I find most interesting.
There would be many references noting these are just the creatures available- that there are likely more and may have completely different biology to the ones studied (and these are all Xenos birthed from the same human hosts- again, limiting huger variations).
If the premise is that it's all being drawn by someone who is first-hand dissecting the Aliens, it would make sense to perhaps depict different Alien designs that are
coincidentally similar to the ones we see in the movies, even if the "scientist author" isn't necessarily aware of it. For instance, the scientist author couldn't literally dissect the Alien variations seen in 'Alien Resurrection', because all of those particular Aliens were contained to the USM Auriga. You could certainly still depict that variation in the book if you wanted to, it just calls into question how and why the scientist author was able to come across them - the easy explanation would be "they're just a visual variation of Alien that can naturally occur", a conclusion supported by the two AvP movies, but the ramification is that any notions of those Alien's design being influenced by "genetic tampering" gets throw out the window.
Which brings up a broader point - where and how is this scientist author getting all these Aliens to dissect and draw in the first place? :P
If you wanted a REALLY easy hand-wave for that, have the scientist author be none other than Dr. Church from 'Aliens: Labyrinth', a man with a dedicated research lab for studying and dissecting Aliens. Frame the narrative of the dissections prior to and throughout the events of 'Aliens: Labyrinth', as Church's research gets progressively crazier right up until the end. Right out of the gate you'd have a baked-in reason for why the scientist author is doing this research, as well as his (unhinged) mental state that lets him get progressively more erratic as the story continues.
I've been logging over everything I would like to illustrate and turns out it is a very huge list and there are a lot of complete mysteries to some of the design elements that were put there for aesthetic, make no real sense anatomically. There will def be a lot of holes and a lot of "I have no facts about what this does, and neither does anyone else- even the creatures don't know how to utilise it" in anything I make. Though, for those I will make threads for to see some ideas other people have which might be super useful.
As for things like the inconsistencies between movies (like the bloods potency!) I think a lot of that can be chalked up between breed variations. These are all part of the same species (and all can interbreed) but they vary wildly from each other (even with the exact same host). Comparable to Huskys and Greyhounds. Despite all the differences they can still have viable offspring. Something along those lines.
I was into 40k when I was little (and I still love making little models when/if I ever have spare time again!) and yeah, the inconsistencies were just told to me as 'It's all variations in reality warps and you can totally pick whichever stories you like best and use that for your armies!' Which is awesome. Like you say; one armies encounter may be varied from another's and they may come to a totally new conclusion about the enemy's layout and fighting strategies only to fight another battle with the same sort of enemy only for them to act and look drastically different (because in the real world you were fighting your friends Sams Nids which are bright pink and the next day fighting Georges Nids whom had black and green colours and of course, George and Sam have much different plans and figures available).
My plans would be to adopt that for this story; a selection of Xenomorph breeds which would be named and distinguishable from each other within the narrative- but we as the audience know that one is clearly the original Xenomorph design from 79 and then another one being like the Xenomorph from the modern Alien Isolation. Both of them would have their speculative parts looked at and documented (such as the feet up close which is a good example of how these vastly differ between the breeds).
As for our speculative in story author; I am yet to read the comics (my friend is sending me a whole bunch of their books over at xmas, with this one included) so I can't say much on our illustrious Doctors deductions yet ;) I'd like to maybe touch lightly on them in notes but for the actual author, it needs to be someone we don't know who is spending hours illustrating this diary book thing some marine perhaps finds and then logs.
I guess the main reason I would want to do it is because I want a reference library of pretty and very clear pictures of Xenomorph parts lol. And I can string them together under a pretence it's a diary with a understated story in the footnotes and chocolate wrapper doodles that people can also stipulate on and maybe deduce who or what the author is.
I'm on a pencil illustration at the moment, so hopefully I can see if that is the style to go for and if people like it (and if it is clear enough ahah).
By the way, props for the most interesting thread in this section in ages. Also delicious art here, Killveous. Looking forward to see more of your project.