It's often been argued whether the AVP movies should be part of the canon, or be a separate franchise altogether.
I think it should be a little in-between. Any parts of the AVP movies that do not contradict the solo movies can be considered canon. Like the Aliens being trapped in the pyramid, and the town being nuked in AVP:R, as most of the human race remained ignorant of the Aliens' existence after AVP:R, not to mention all the Aliens were destroyed, allowing humanity not to worry about them, until much later in the future. The PredAlien's reproduction method, however, was a blatant contradiction that should obviously be ignored.
I wouldn't mind if certain AVP movies were canon, and others not. Not completely restricting them to the canon could provide certain opportunities as far as scripts are concerned, imo. Best of both worlds, and all that jazz.
I think it mostly depends on point of view. For me yes they are. All in all there is not really anything that contradicts later films. As much as I despise AvP-R we haven't seen Predalien in films before and we can't be 100% się what it can or can not do. And even if there are future films featuring Predaliens (God I hope there will be) looking different striped of those stupid abilities, we can still say that this was abomination similar to Newborn. It's not the first time Aliens are shown doing some peculiar and totally unexpected things. That's part of their charm.
This an old barrel of fish here being opened with a new crowbar. Infact, there is actually a thread already dedicated to this. It's the AvP Multiverse thread which can be found with this link here: http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=49750.390 (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=49750.390)
However with the direction that Fox is going with the franchises, it's really hard to say. Fire and Stone is essentially a reboot of the comics, for the most part many sources from the writers, especially Christopher Sebela seem to indicate that they are ignoring the AvP films as well as the previously published expanded universe material. Scott Allie even suggest that this is a hard reboot as well, but they are keeping in mind of elements which were introduced in the previous EU. Since these new comics are a reboot, one can assume that the AVP films and the previous EU can be considered a separate but parallel universe.
Prometheus seems to ignore the AVP films, especially with the whole Weyland issue such as when the company was founded. PREDATORS, while said to ignore Predator 2 and the AvP films.. seems to allow the previous movies to somehow fit (although I don't like the idea of Predator 2 and AvP being connected to THAT movie). So AVP can still fit as far as the Predator franchise is concerned but even then, if we take into account the games and some of the comics.. the connection to the Alien franchise STILL HAS TO HAPPEN. Of course with the Shane Black movie on the way.. It's hard to figure out if it will keep AvP in mind or not.
But with the new comics and novels somehow tying into Prometheus.. it's probably a good idea for the fandom as a whole to view the franchises similarly to how the Halloween, Godzilla and even King of Fighters franchises have multiple timelines and alternate realities.
Honestly.. I hope Fox one day officially announces that there is a multiverse at work. It would just make things so much easier and keep everything canon but organized as well. I think it would make everyone happy.. Save for a few people.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Aug 27, 2014, 06:21:19 PM
This an old barrel of fish here being opened with a new crowbar. Infact, there is actually a thread already dedicated to this. It's the AvP Multiverse thread which can be found with this link here: http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=49750.390 (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=49750.390)
However with the direction that Fox is going with the franchises, it's really hard to say. Fire and Stone is essentially a reboot of the comics, for the most part many sources from the writers, especially Christopher Sebela seem to indicate that they are ignoring the AvP films as well as the previously published expanded universe material. Scott Allie even suggest that this is a hard reboot as well, but they are keeping in mind of elements which were introduced in the previous EU. Since these new comics are a reboot, one can assume that the AVP films and the previous EU can be considered a separate but parallel universe.
Prometheus seems to ignore the AVP films, especially with the whole Weyland issue such as when the company was founded. PREDATORS, while said to ignore Predator 2 and the AvP films.. seems to allow the previous movies to somehow fit (although I don't like the idea of Predator 2 and AvP being connected to THAT movie). So AVP can still fit as far as the Predator franchise is concerned but even then, if we take into account the games and some of the comics.. the connection to the Alien franchise STILL HAS TO HAPPEN. Of course with the Shane Black movie on the way.. It's hard to figure out if it will keep AvP in mind or not.
But with the new comics and novels somehow tying into Prometheus.. it's probably a good idea for the fandom as a whole to view the franchises similarly to how the Halloween, Godzilla and even King of Fighters franchises have multiple timelines and alternate realities.
Honestly.. I hope Fox one day officially announces that there is a multiverse at work. It would just make things so much easier and keep everything canon but organized as well. I think it would make everyone happy.. Save for a few people.
Im sorry mister but this is bullshit. There's nothing worst and more confusing then multiverse. Something either is canon or is not. I tend to agree that films create canon, especially that so far they don't contradict themselves in major way.
Quote from: Master on Aug 27, 2014, 07:09:15 PM
Im sorry mister but this is bullshit.
I disagree.
Quote from: Master on Aug 27, 2014, 07:09:15 PM
There's nothing worst and more confusing then multiverse.
I would say that argument is bull. Seriously, why does there have to be one canon instead of multiple? Why have such a limited canon where not many can agree upon what is canon and what isn't? If anything a multiverse or alternative timelines can work as long as it is organized. The Godzilla and Halloween franchises have a multiverse going on, and they seem to be doing just fine with their fandoms and I haven't seen anyone complain about their canon and continuities.
So who is to say we can't be fine with a multiverse? Why does there have to be one timeline?
Quote from: Master on Aug 27, 2014, 07:09:15 PM
I tend to agree that films create canon, especially that so far they don't contradict themselves in major way.
Sure the films are considered the primary source and core of the canon, we can agree on that but seems as if Fox's policy has changed. Probably because studio heads have changed recently. I do know that according to Moore, one of the writers for the new Alien novels, Fox was strongly considering on jettisoning Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection out of the canon as well. However they, for whatever reason, opted not to.
Even in the context of the films, if one counts the intent of PREDATORS and Prometheus, it's very clear that the desire of a separation of the franchises was intended and even seen as apparent.
Chill man I'm playing with you ;) See the thing is I'm looking at it from perspective of casual movie goer. People understand sequel, prequel, reboot but get confused with everything else. I don't want those movies be understandable for few cause that means constant reboots and remakes or small budget niche pictures.
Quote from: Master on Aug 27, 2014, 09:27:57 PM
Chill man I'm playing with you ;)
You actually had me fooled, Master. For a moment I thought our mutual respect was broken. :-\
Quote from: Master on Aug 27, 2014, 09:27:57 PM
See the thing is I'm looking at it from perspective of casual movie goer. People understand sequel, prequel, reboot but get confused with everything else.
Here is the thing about the casual movie goer who happens to be your average Joe Blow who isn't into this stuff as we are. They don't care about canon or even continuity. Ask any random schmuck off the street, and they'll assume AvP is somehow connected with Prometheus. Most casual movie goers just don't care, and it's something which I've always known. It's just common sense, really.
What the original poster is asking is if AvP can be tied in with either franchises, or if it's a separate universe altogether. And what I assume we're supposed to do is answer it in the best way possible.
Fire & Stone is basically saying "yes, Aliens, Predator, Prometheus, and AvP form one integrated universe"
As for the predalien's "abilities"...I mean come on, is the predalien's method of reproduction really sillier than egg-morphing...turning a person into an egg?
Quote from: happypred on Aug 28, 2014, 07:11:30 AM
Fire & Stone is basically saying "yes, Aliens, Predator, Prometheus, and AvP form one integrated universe"
No, not really.. Especially when Sebela himself has stated at SDCC that the AvP movies are non-canon with the Fire and Stone storyline. Do you need me to pull up a link?
http://comicsbeat.com/sdcc-14-dark-horses-aliens-predator-prometheus-and-beyond-panel/ (http://comicsbeat.com/sdcc-14-dark-horses-aliens-predator-prometheus-and-beyond-panel/)
Whereas the AvP films were more like Aliens in the Predator universe, this new take appears to be vice versa.. more like Predators in the Prometheus universe.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Aug 28, 2014, 07:29:59 AMNo, not really.. Especially when Sebela himself has stated at SDCC that the AvP movies are non-canon with the Fire and Stone storyline. Do you need me to pull up a link?
I'm not talking about the films, I'm talking about the three franchises
Fire & Stone has a Prometheus miniseries, a Predator one, an Aliens one, and an AvP one. They all tie together. That's what I mean.
The Aliens miniseries and the AvP miniseries don't occur in separate universes.
Quote from: happypred on Aug 28, 2014, 07:34:54 AM
I'm not talking about the films, I'm talking about the three franchises
Fire & Stone has a Prometheus miniseries, a Predator one, an Aliens one, and an AvP one. They all tie together. That's what I mean.
The Aliens miniseries and the AvP miniseries don't occur in separate universes.
The original poster is asking about the movies, so we are talking about the movies. Alien vs. Predator didn't officially become a franchise until 2004, I mean sure you could make an argument about the comics and the AvP franchise being around since 1989 and you would be by all means right but officially speaking, the franchise didn't come around until ten years ago.
So either two things.. either there is more than one AvP universe.. Or the films didn't happen at all and I am most certainly hoping for the former rather the latter. You can have separate and parallel universes being labeled under the same franchise. Again, look at Godzilla and Halloween.. Shit, even look at King of Fighters. That series has alternate realities but they're all part of the same franchise.
Like I said Whereas the AvP films were more like Aliens in the Predator universe, this new take appears to be vice versa.. more like Predators in the Prometheus universe.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Aug 28, 2014, 07:40:24 AMThe original poster is asking about the movies, so we are talking about the movies.
In that case, only Fox knows the answer to that question. AvP has Weyland and AvP-R has Yutani
That would suggest they're happening in the Aliens universe. As fans, we're free to speculate but without any sort of official Fox statement, there's no way to say for certain. I'd argue that unless there's a Fox statement to the contrary, the AvP films should be considered as set in the same universe. The inclusion of Weyland and Yutani is meant to convey that
Quote from: happypred on Aug 28, 2014, 09:06:12 AM
In that case, only Fox knows the answer to that question. AvP has Weyland and AvP-R has Yutani
This is true, and Prometheus also has Weyland as well. Having asked Paul Tobin where the AvP movies fit anywhere in the canon, even he couldn't answer that question either due to breach of contract, or he genuinely didn't know as his answer was essentially speaking: "Go knock on Fox's door.. And bring beer, they like beer."
So really, shit if anyone knows.. :-\
Quote from: happypred on Aug 28, 2014, 09:06:12 AM
That would suggest they're happening in the Aliens universe. As fans, we're free to speculate but without any sort of official Fox statement, there's no way to say for certain. I'd argue that unless there's a Fox statement to the contrary, the AvP films should be considered as set in the same universe. The inclusion of Weyland and Yutani is meant to convey that
That would be true, or rather a parallel Aliens universe which would be extremely similar but somewhat different to the Prometheus/Alien universe. Either that.. or the AvP movies didn't happen. Which.. admittedly would leave a bitter taste in my mouth. Of course I could do without Requiem due to it's flaws, despite me enjoying the movie. I wouldn't mind three separate but similar universes, I mean I could do without Super Predators and Engineers, despite me liking the latter quite a lot.
But so far with Fox's involvement in the expanded universe, so far it seems to be that they want to wash their hands of the AvP movies.. the only indication which suggest they doing something with that franchise and continuity is the Halloween Haunted Nights attraction, and of course the merchandise dedicated to the AvP movies. I highly doubt we will see a third AvP movie. However I am in full agreement that all we can do is speculate until Fox releases a statement.
And want to know something? That fills me with a sense of anxiousness. Not necessarily the good kind.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Aug 28, 2014, 01:37:43 AM
Quote from: Master on Aug 27, 2014, 09:27:57 PM
Chill man I'm playing with you ;)
You actually had me fooled, Master. For a moment I thought our mutual respect was broken. :-\
Quote from: Master on Aug 27, 2014, 09:27:57 PM
See the thing is I'm looking at it from perspective of casual movie goer. People understand sequel, prequel, reboot but get confused with everything else.
Here is the thing about the casual movie goer who happens to be your average Joe Blow who isn't into this stuff as we are. They don't care about canon or even continuity. Ask any random schmuck off the street, and they'll assume AvP is somehow connected with Prometheus. Most casual movie goers just don't care, and it's something which I've always known. It's just common sense, really.
What the original poster is asking is if AvP can be tied in with either franchises, or if it's a separate universe altogether. And what I assume we're supposed to do is answer it in the best way possible.
I consider you a friend Rakai, even if we're constantly disagreeing.
Maybe I didn't used the best description. I was taking about fans but not as hard core like us. Like my brother. He likes those films allot and was with me in cinema on both AvP, Ps and Prometheus. Some bullshit reboots and multiverses would piss people like him.
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 12:58:26 PM
I consider you a friend Rakai, even if we're constantly disagreeing.
At least we can also discuss our agreements intelligently and be rational about it. So I consider you a friend as well! ;D
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 12:58:26 PM
Maybe I didn't used the best description. I was taking about fans but not as hard core like us. Like my brother. He likes those films allot and was with me in cinema on both AvP, Ps and Prometheus. Some bullshit reboots and multiverses would piss people like him.
When you put it that way, fair enough. Of course I still vouche for the idea of a multiverse as it would organize things and make things easier for fans which of the canons to accept. Canon debates would be shoved into a corner, but as it is.. All we can do is speculate right now on the placement of the AvP films. As you say, it's either canon or it's not. And I'm actually afraid of the latter.
As for a reboot.. Eventually, there will be an Alien or Predator reboot. More likely for Predator since there doesn't seem to be strong continuity ties with any of the movies as there is for Alien. Of course, we also have a likelier chance for an AvP reboot. Of course, I would prefer an AvP3 where it continues the storyline where the first two AvP movies left off.. OR.. a replacement sequel which overrides Requiem but still keeps in mind of the first AvP. Still would prefer an AvP3.
Lokking at it from official stand point, if FOX wanted to suggest AvP non canon, they use original Alien vs Predator logo like on old ones insted of AvP 2004 logo.
There is simply no need to remake Predator and pissing the fan base when you can make whole bunch of stand alone sequels. Trust me FOX knows their fanbase. Also after what Marvel did with MCU every one wants somthing similar to milk money. New Fire and Stone series indicates what we might get in nearest future.
About AvP, I also think we'll get unrelated sequel insted of all out reboot/remake. Either space story all fans are so eager to get, or Frozen Queen (not Elza, the other one ;) ) if the action stays on earth.
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 03:22:51 PM
Lokking at it from official stand point, if FOX wanted to suggest AvP non canon, they use original Alien vs Predator logo like on old ones insted of AvP 2004 logo.
I don't think the use of a logo has any impacting on what determines something to be canon or non-canon. More or less, it's the story what determines that. However from what I have seen anyway.. Fox does seem to really want to get away from AvP unless they want to pander merchandise for the fans to make money off of.
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 03:22:51 PM
There is simply no need to remake Predator and pissing the fan base when you can make whole bunch of stand alone sequels. Trust me FOX knows their fanbase. Also after what Marvel did with MCU every one wants somthing similar to milk money. New Fire and Stone series indicates what we might get in nearest future.
Never say never. Eventually a remake or a reboot is going to happen. More than likely a reboot more than anything else. Mind you I don't see a reboot or a remake happening for the Alien franchise, but probably for the Predator or AvP franchises. I wouldn't mind stand alone movies as long as they aren't considered part of an over-arching timeline.. I find myself each day just giving up on the whole timeline thing. No one really wins with that.
As for Fox listening and knowing their fans... Eeeeeeeeeeeeh.. Ssssssss.. I'm not gonna touch that one. :laugh:
I would say that the whole Alien-Predator universe has been unified, or at least was years ago before the Marvel Cinematic Universe as we know it came to be. Then it was.. kind of separated with PREDATORS and Prometheus. So you argue that we have three franchises and maybe three separate universes. As for Fire and Stone... Yeah that's the attitude they're trying to approach it with, even Scott Allie referenced the MCU off handedly but he also admits that is a hard reboot as far as comics are concerned. Meaning that all the other stuff as far as the old EU is concerned is finished and over with. Also, if you count what Sebela says regarding the AvP movies, that he doesn't consider the movies canon for Fire and Stone.. Kind of presents an angle here.
Either the AvP movies didn't happen as far as Prometheus and Fire and Stone are concerned, and not really canon.. or the AvP movies are their own universe which still shares links to the first two Predator movies, and the four Alien movies and is essentially a different canon altogether.
As for a potential AvP movie.. If we get an unrelated sequel, I might be content with that as long as no Engineers or Super Predators are involved. As for the Antarctic Queen.. I could see something happening with her but I'm not so sure that the oceanic water pressure would've crushed her or not. I know Aliens can survive in practically almost any environment but wouldn't the pressure at the bottom of the Antarctic crush her?
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Aug 28, 2014, 03:59:44 PM
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 03:22:51 PM
Lokking at it from official stand point, if FOX wanted to suggest AvP non canon, they use original Alien vs Predator logo like on old ones insted of AvP 2004 logo.
I don't think the use of a logo has any impacting on what determines something to be canon or non-canon. More or less, it's the story what determines that. However from what I have seen anyway.. Fox does seem to really want to get away from AvP unless they want to pander merchandise for the fans to make money off of.
That`s their whole perpous. To make money. That`s why they never admitt AvP-r was wrong f**king choice.
Quote
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 03:22:51 PM
There is simply no need to remake Predator and pissing the fan base when you can make whole bunch of stand alone sequels. Trust me FOX knows their fanbase. Also after what Marvel did with MCU every one wants somthing similar to milk money. New Fire and Stone series indicates what we might get in nearest future.
Never say never. Eventually a remake or a reboot is going to happen. More than likely a reboot more than anything else. Mind you I don't see a reboot or a remake happening for the Alien franchise, but probably for the Predator or AvP franchises. I wouldn't mind stand alone movies as long as they aren't considered part of an over-arching timeline.. I find myself each day just giving up on the whole timeline thing. No one really wins with that.
You know what. Predator films are made. More or less connected, better or worse but they are. Alien films, well that`s whole different story. They are stuck with Ripley and are not sure to make another one with Sigourney or not. If reboot happens, Alien is first not Predator. Especially that Prometheus didn`t worked as they wanted to.
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As for Fox listening and knowing their fans... Eeeeeeeeeeeeh.. Ssssssss.. I'm not gonna touch that one. :laugh:
They wanted more gore in their AvP? They did get it. They wanted more Space Jockey and Ridley? They did get it. The effects are different matter whatsoever.
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I would say that the whole Alien-Predator universe has been unified, or at least was years ago before the Marvel Cinematic Universe as we know it came to be. Then it was.. kind of separated with PREDATORS and Prometheus. So you argue that we have three franchises and maybe three separate universes. As for Fire and Stone... Yeah that's the attitude they're trying to approach it with, even Scott Allie referenced the MCU off handedly but he also admits that is a hard reboot as far as comics are concerned. Meaning that all the other stuff as far as the old EU is concerned is finished and over with.
It`s like saying MCU is geting separated with Iron Man 3 and co. It`s not. Next AvP film will happen and if it`s in space, Jockeys and Super Predators are there.
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Also, if you count what Sebela says regarding the AvP movies, that he doesn't consider the movies canon for Fire and Stone.. Kind of presents an angle here.
You know I don`t.
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Either the AvP movies didn't happen as far as Prometheus and Fire and Stone are concerned, and not really canon.. or the AvP movies are their own universe which still shares links to the first two Predator movies, and the four Alien movies and is essentially a different canon altogether.
But why? They don`t contradict each other.
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As for a potential AvP movie.. If we get an unrelated sequel, I might be content with that as long as no Engineers or Super Predators are involved. As for the Antarctic Queen.. I could see something happening with her but I'm not so sure that the oceanic water pressure would've crushed her or not. I know Aliens can survive in practically almost any environment but wouldn't the pressure at the bottom of the Antarctic crush her?
The thing is water is quite shallow out there.
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 04:43:31 PM
That`s their whole perpous. To make money. That`s why they never admitt AvP-r was wrong f**king choice.
Fair enough and true enough!
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 04:43:31 PM
You know what. Predator films are made. More or less connected, better or worse but they are. Alien films, well that`s whole different story. They are stuck with Ripley and are not sure to make another one with Sigourney or not. If reboot happens, Alien is first not Predator. Especially that Prometheus didn`t worked as they wanted to.
The only franchise as far as I know which doesn't have a string of continuity would be the Leprechaun franchise. Sure, the movies are considered sequels but they don't even have a connection to each other, or even the first movie. The Predator movies on the other hand, have a very thin continuity string.. And this is where canon debates come in because some view the AvP movies as being either canon or non-canon, or alternative canon. It depends on who you ask.
As for Alien, there is definitely a heavy continuity string there. Whether or not Fox wants to do an Alien movie is something up for discussion but it's clear that Weaver wants to finish the story, though with a potential delay on Prometheus 2 and no telling when Prometheus 3 is going to come out, by the time Alien 5 is in production, Weaver will be too old. Unless you're one of those folks who think Weaver isn't too old to be Ripley but if you ask me, I think the Alien franchise is done.
...And Prometheus didn't work? Last I recall, a lot of people fawned over the movie and fangasmed cause it was Ridley Scott. However I also know that part of the Alien fandom outright hates the movie. So..
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 04:43:31 PM
They wanted more gore in their AvP? They did get it. They wanted more Space Jockey and Ridley? They did get it. The effects are different matter whatsoever.
This is most definitely true, I suppose. I do remember the gore hounds being the most vocal as far as AvP-R was concerned. As far as Prometheus is concerned... Maybe Ridley Scott, I can see Fox hearing fans about him but the Space Jockey? Well.. we were supposed to get a direct Alien prequel but.. we got an indirect one with Prometheus.
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 04:43:31 PM
It`s like saying MCU is geting separated with Iron Man 3 and co. It`s not. Next AvP film will happen and if it`s in space, Jockeys and Super Predators are there.
If Engineers and Super Predators are going to be in Alien vs Predator 3, I.. would not be very pleased. PREDATORS already made my faith in the franchise waver. I just hope Shane Black's movie doesn't further the stupid which PREDATORS brought.. I mean Shane has apparently done some good work, it's more Fred Dekker I'm iffy about since Dekker did do Robocop 3.
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 04:43:31 PM
You know I don`t.
I figured you didn't, but I just wanted to throw that out there incase someone else wanted to chime in on that.
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 04:43:31 PM
But why? They don`t contradict each other.
Prometheus has some contradictions with AvP. Namely of course the Weyland Corp timeline which suggests that Peter had formed Weyland Corp somewhere in the 2010s, where as AvP had suggested that Charles had founded Weyland Industries in 1973. Also, several people on this forum have pointed out that there are legal differences between an Industry and Corporation. Of course, one could make the argument that viral marketing which is written in-universe was all a part of the Fox Marketing ploy can and should be ignored, the fact that it was written in universe makes it very hard to ignore.
You could also argue that the stories of the films don't contradict each other but again it goes back to the point above. I'm not getting into a debate, but I'm just speaking from a neutral point of view and saying what others have already said.
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 04:43:31 PM
The thing is water is quite shallow out there.
I did not know that.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Aug 28, 2014, 05:10:52 PM
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 04:43:31 PM
You know what. Predator films are made. More or less connected, better or worse but they are. Alien films, well that`s whole different story. They are stuck with Ripley and are not sure to make another one with Sigourney or not. If reboot happens, Alien is first not Predator. Especially that Prometheus didn`t worked as they wanted to.
As for Alien, there is definitely a heavy continuity string there. Whether or not Fox wants to do an Alien movie is something up for discussion but it's clear that Weaver wants to finish the story, though with a potential delay on Prometheus 2 and no telling when Prometheus 3 is going to come out, by the time Alien 5 is in production, Weaver will be too old. Unless you're one of those folks who think Weaver isn't too old to be Ripley but if you ask me, I think the Alien franchise is done.
...And Prometheus didn't work? Last I recall, a lot of people fawned over the movie and fangasmed cause it was Ridley Scott. However I also know that part of the Alien fandom outright hates the movie. So..
I don`t hate it. I thik it`s beautifull piece, but it`s plot is gibberish. And seeing how many things it have got in common with AvP is just hillarious.
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Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 04:43:31 PM
They wanted more gore in their AvP? They did get it. They wanted more Space Jockey and Ridley? They did get it. The effects are different matter whatsoever.
This is most definitely true, I suppose. I do remember the gore hounds being the most vocal as far as AvP-R was concerned. As far as Prometheus is concerned... Maybe Ridley Scott, I can see Fox hearing fans about him but the Space Jockey? Well.. we were supposed to get a direct Alien prequel but.. we got an indirect one with Prometheus.
Which is shame really. I wanted my Alien prequel.
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Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 04:43:31 PM
It`s like saying MCU is geting separated with Iron Man 3 and co. It`s not. Next AvP film will happen and if it`s in space, Jockeys and Super Predators are there.
If Engineers and Super Predators are going to be in Alien vs Predator 3, I.. would not be very pleased. PREDATORS already made my faith in the franchise waver. I just hope Shane Black's movie doesn't further the stupid which PREDATORS brought.. I mean Shane has apparently done some good work, it's more Fred Dekker I'm iffy about since Dekker did do Robocop 3.
Brace yourself. It is comming sooner or later.
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Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 04:43:31 PM
But why? They don`t contradict each other.
Prometheus has some contradictions with AvP. Namely of course the Weyland Corp timeline which suggests that Peter had formed Weyland Corp somewhere in the 2010s, where as AvP had suggested that Charles had founded Weyland Industries in 1973. Also, several people on this forum have pointed out that there are legal differences between an Industry and Corporation. Of course, one could make the argument that viral marketing which is written in-universe was all a part of the Fox Marketing ploy can and should be ignored, the fact that it was written in universe makes it very hard to ignore.
You could also argue that the stories of the films don't contradict each other but again it goes back to the point above. I'm not getting into a debate, but I'm just speaking from a neutral point of view and saying what others have already said.
There is no contradiction in film, simple as that. Like I said before with my borther as example, such people will not waste their time to read some shitty description. I didn`t read it myself as whole because it was poor. W-Y is basicly ACME and the all out ruller of the galaxy. Stupid.
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Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 04:43:31 PM
The thing is water is quite shallow out there.
I did not know that.
Something new every day, right? ;)
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 05:42:12 PM
I don`t hate it. I thik it`s beautifull piece, but it`s plot is gibberish. And seeing how many things it have got in common with AvP is just hillarious.
A lot of people pointed out the similarities to AvP and Prometheus. The biggest one being the whole Ancient Aliens theme.
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 05:42:12 PM
Which is shame really. I wanted my Alien prequel.
I think some folks were disappointed in the direction which Prometheus went with, especially with how Ridley Scott took the direction of the Engineers. There was a lot of hype and mystery regarding them, and a lot of folks were disappointed with the final result of the Engineers just being space humans.
And then of course there was the Jon Spaits script which had plenty of closer ties to Alien. I've heard some interesting things about the script. Some good, some mixed.. I haven't read the script.
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 05:42:12 PM
Brace yourself. It is comming sooner or later.
If you are speaking in regards to Shane Black's movie, all I can say is I hope his ideas are something which I can agree with. PREDATORS completely changed things in ways which I disagreed with. I just hope his movie brings back sense to things. If you are speaking in regards to AvP3, I'm not going to hold my breath and I wouldn't suggest anyone to hold theirs either.
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 05:42:12 PM
There is no contradiction in film, simple as that. Like I said before with my borther as example, such people will not waste their time to read some shitty description. I didn`t read it myself as whole because it was poor. W-Y is basicly ACME and the all out ruller of the galaxy. Stupid.
And that's your decision, and that is perfectly fine. All I was doing was pointing out what some folks out there have already said, and I acknowledge the arguments of both sides for and against the idea of AvP being in the same continuity as Prometheus. Personally, from how I see it.. or believe, is that there are three distinct separate but parallel continuities.
But again, until Fox announces what's what.. All we can do is debate and speculate.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Aug 28, 2014, 07:17:31 PM
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 05:42:12 PM
I don`t hate it. I thik it`s beautifull piece, but it`s plot is gibberish. And seeing how many things it have got in common with AvP is just hillarious.
A lot of people pointed out the similarities to AvP and Prometheus. The biggest one being the whole Ancient Aliens theme.
Scott looks stupid with his whole f**k off attitude towards AvP, and yet making so similar film.
Quote
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 05:42:12 PM
Which is shame really. I wanted my Alien prequel.
I think some folks were disappointed in the direction which Prometheus went with, especially with how Ridley Scott took the direction of the Engineers. There was a lot of hype and mystery regarding them, and a lot of folks were disappointed with the final result of the Engineers just being space humans.
And then of course there was the Jon Spaits script which had plenty of closer ties to Alien. I've heard some interesting things about the script. Some good, some mixed.. I haven't read the script.
That`s jackpot mister.That`s exactly what went wrong in Prom. So many years of speculation and mystery and in the end we`ve got some more humans... Seriously? I`m not saying the design was wrong. No it looked cool, but that`s Spece Jockey? Seriously?
Quote
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 05:42:12 PM
Brace yourself. It is comming sooner or later.
If you are speaking in regards to Shane Black's movie, all I can say is I hope his ideas are something which I can agree with. PREDATORS completely changed things in ways which I disagreed with. I just hope his movie brings back sense to things. If you are speaking in regards to AvP3, I'm not going to hold my breath and I wouldn't suggest anyone to hold theirs either.
Well that`s AvP forum ;D
Quote
Quote from: Master on Aug 28, 2014, 05:42:12 PM
There is no contradiction in film, simple as that. Like I said before with my borther as example, such people will not waste their time to read some shitty description. I didn`t read it myself as whole because it was poor. W-Y is basicly ACME and the all out ruller of the galaxy. Stupid.
And that's your decision, and that is perfectly fine. All I was doing was pointing out what some folks out there have already said, and I acknowledge the arguments of both sides for and against the idea of AvP being in the same continuity as Prometheus. Personally, from how I see it.. or believe, is that there are three distinct separate but parallel continuities.
But again, until Fox announces what's what.. All we can do is debate and speculate.
As always ;) God I`d love next Predator to follow P2 ending, with Adam Baldwin and such.
QuoteEspecially that Prometheus didn`t worked as they wanted to.
Positive reviews, made lots of money.
If only all many other films "didn't worked". :laugh:
Prometheus could've easily been much better and thus done much better financially (which would lead to greater hype for a sequel). Instead, most viewers were disappointed despite generally good critical reviews.
(Rounded to the nearest million)
Prometheus:
Production Budget: 130 million
Domestic Gross: 126 million
Foreign Gross: 277 million
Worldwide Gross: 403 million
Gross Profit (Worldwide Gross - Production Budget): 273 million
Gross Profit/Production Budget: (403-130)/130=2.1
AvP Requiem:
Production Budget: commonly estimated at 40 million (maybe even lower)
Domestic Gross: 42 million
Foreign Gross: 87 million
Worldwide Gross: 129 million
Gross Profit (Worldwide Gross-Production Budget): 89 million
Gross Profit/Production Budget: (129-40)/40=2.225
Yeah...not exactly stellar. If Prometheus was a success, Requiem was a success. Prometheus' domestic gross was lower than its production budget. That's not a good sign. On top of that, I'm almost certain that Prometheus had a higher advertising cost than Requiem. On the other hand, Prometheus likely had more profitable DVD sales, though Requiem's DVD sales were by no means poor.
273 million dollars gross profit sounds pretty f**kin' stellar.
Quote from: SiL on Aug 29, 2014, 02:42:16 AM
273 million dollars gross profit sounds pretty f**kin' stellar.
273 million dollars on a 130 million dollar prod budget...
89 million dollars on a 40 million dollar prod budget is similarly "stellar" (AvP Requiem)
Studios make more profit on domestic (U.S.) revenue than they do on foreign revenue. Prometheus and Requiem could both be considered domestic failures.
The majority of critics and fans, however, liked Prometheus. AvP:R was financially successful, but critically - with critics and punters alike - it tanked.
Yes , I consider it canon even if Alien 3 contradicts this .
Quote from: Randomizer on Aug 29, 2014, 05:14:52 AM
Yes , I consider it canon even if Alien 3 contradicts this .
Why do you consider the AvP films to be canon if Alien 3 supposedly contradicts this? I'm not asking to give you a hard time, but asking out of genuine curiosity considering the general consensus here on the forum.
The way I find AvP canon is that Ripley didn't knew the Aliens were already on Earth since the antiquity and she didn't knew nothing about the temple . Simple .
I think that there are two AvP universes.. One which involves the AvP movies and perhaps by extension, the old expanded universe.. And then there is the new AvP universe which has PREDATORS and Prometheus, but not the AvP movies. It's like SNK's Art of Fighting/Fatal Fury and The King of Fighters timelines. I guess I can explain that a bit.
However, I'll put this under spoilers to condense for space.
Spoiler
Like Alien and Predator, Art of Fighting and Fatal Fury are two separate franchises.. but they are set in different timelines are far as the AOF/FF timeline is concerned. The Art of Fighting series happened somewhere between 1974 to 1979, some twenty or so years before Fatal Fury which was set around 1992 to 1994. Characters from AOF had birthdates which were in the 1950s to 1960s, Fatal Fury characters had birthdates in the late 1960s to early 1970s and Geese Howard, the main antagonist of both AOF/FF had been around since the 70s, until he had faked his death in the early 90s.. And then died for real sometime in 1996. Characters from AOF aged as according to their birthdates, as did characters from Fatal Fury. The AOF/FF universe storyline was continued in Garou: Mark of the Wolves and seemingly ended there.
In the King of Fighters timeline, which does have the AOF/FF franchises and characters in their universe.. Things happened differently. Characters from Art of Fighting had their birthdates retconned to match in line with the Fatal Fury characters without aging them. The events of Art of Fighting to Art of Fighting 3 occured, but at different dates.. The events of Fatal Fury had happened as well, likely unchanged but in 1994, the King of Fighters tournament was announced by Rugal Bernstein.. Like the events of Fatal Fury, Geese Howard faked his death in the early 90s and unlike the AOF/FF timeline.. He's survives and is still an antagonist. Events somewhat exclusive to KOF happened, which.. are somewhat left out in the AOF/FF timeline.
Both timelines are considered canon, and it's ultimately up to the individual fan which canon they want to follow. Because both the AOF/FF and King of Fighters timeline are considered main timelines.
If the AvP movies are to be considered canon with the Predator and Alien movies, while keeping in mind that PREDATORS and Prometheus distances themselves from the AvP movies.. Similarly, what's explained to the compared franchises above has to somehow happen. If we take into account Fire and Stone, then there maybe two AvP universes.
You have one universes which has the first two Predator films, which is then continued on with AvP and AvP-R, as well as the old expanded universe as well while keeping in mind of games like AvP2010, and of course.. the four Alien films.
And then there is the new and now currently focused timeline which will comprise of the three Predator films (although PREDATORS is still debated where THAT fits), possibly Shane Black's movie, the Prometheus films, Fire and Stone.. and then the Alien films.
Now understand that this is all speculation and the explanation is a comparison and attempt to explain that somehow perhaps both timelines are right. Also if it seems my analogy to the Alien-Predator franchises in comparison to the AOF/FF and KOF franchises seems.. well.. wrong.. I just tried my best to explain how things could work in this mess we call canon. Until a big wig says something.. That's all we can do.
Speculate.
Prometheus and Requiem are financially successful in the sense that they both made accounting profits.
From an economic perspective, both are lacklustre. Economic profit factors in opportunity cost. That's why profit ratio is an important metric. Investing 40 million dollars for a 42 million dollar domestic return (likewise investing 130 million dollars for a 126 million domestic return) is not considered good in the movie industry. Both Prometheus and Requiem relied heavily on foreign gross for impressive numbers. Movie studios however make much less profit off foreign gross than they do off domestic gross. To a movie studio, 50 million dollars of domestic gross is worth a lot more than 50 million dollars of foreign gross.
AvP Requiem (benefiting from both the "Aliens" and "Predator" names) should've made much more than 128 million dollars (only 42 million of that amount being domestic revenue). If it had been a halfway decent film (and if AvP 2004 had been much better), the AvP franchise could've reaped in much larger amounts.
The same is true of Prometheus. A Ridley Scott vehicle tied to the Aliens universe. On the domestic box office, it actually recorded a loss of 4 million dollars. That's bad. Most of my friends thought it was disappointing. They were expecting much more. People were laughing in the cinema when the stupid scientist tried to fondle the snake and when Vickers got crushed.
Anecdotes always trump more actual broadbased data.
That's beside the point
Prometheus was a domestic flop worse than AvP Requiem, which domestically managed to make slightly more than its prod budget...something Prometheus couldn't even do.
That probably wouldn't have been the case if Prometheus had been a better movie. I mean...yeah, the film has much better reviews than Requiem, but its financial performance is actually quite similar to Requiem's, albeit on a larger scale (bigger cost, bigger gross, near-identical domestic/foreign distribution)
I'd argue that both movies failed to fully realise the franchise's potential, Prometheus arguably being more disappointing as it was expected to be Ridley's triumphant return to sci-fi
QuoteThat's beside the point
...of course it is...
It's expanded universe content. I don't think it's a good enough fit to all be considered canon. These movies stand on their own.
I view the AVP movies the same as I do with Dragon Ball GT. I view them in their own timeline and not apart of the main universe.
Obviously I consider them part of the same universe, and they've always been intended that way and FOX has always regarded them that way.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Sep 13, 2014, 12:19:01 AM
Obviously I consider them part of the same universe, and they've always been intended that way and FOX has always regarded them that way.
A part of me wishes to believe that, a part of me doesn't..
YOU ARE TEARING ME APART, FOX!!
Couldn't care less. AvP was a spin-off and with though there is nothing terribly contradictive in Prometheus that some enthusiasts can't do the mental gymnastics for, it's evident that the series is increasingly being pushed aside and forgotten as just a spin-off.
Honestly, I feel it's obvious that Fox considers these franchises and every single installment - from Alien (1979), Aliens (1986), Predator (1987), Predator 2 (1990), Alien 3 (1992), Alien Resurrection (1997), Alien vs. Predator (2004), Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem (2007), Predators (2010), Prometheus (2012), Alien: Covenant (2017), to The Predator (2018) - to be canonical to each other, they simply act in a manner of continuity similar to the Marvel Cinematic Universe where there are crossovers and separate storylines but they all ultimately take place within the very same fictional (and profitable) universe.
It began with Dark Horse Comics first suggesting the concept of the shared universe in 1989 (and had been expanding upon it ever since), and Fox soon officially initiated the concept in 1990 with Predator 2 and the famous Xenomorph skull in the Yautja trophy room, and attempted to produce a feature film throughout the following decade until it was officially cemented together with Alien vs. Predator in 2004 and Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem in 2007, and both films undeniably existing in continuity with both the Alien and Predator films as even openly expressed by the cast and crew behind the films (the directors in particular). Noting that AVPR actually features a Space Jockey skull in the trophy room.
Then in the same vein as Marvel's Iron Man 3, the 2010 release of Predators continued on a separate storyline but still existed within the same continuity as all previous eight Alien/Predator films and even featured several references to James Cameron's Aliens from 1986 (as this film was intended to act as the Predator-equivalent to Cameron's film) and included, as the director revealed, a Xenomorph lower jaw on the Berserker Predator's mask.
The shared universe would also be further expanded upon through various home video releases (such as Alien/AVP/Predator - The Ultimate Annihilation: Nine Movie Collection), video games (notably Aliens vs. Predator from 2010, AVP: Evolution from 2013, and Aliens vs. Pinball from 2016), comic books, novels, boardgames (such as AVP: The Hunt Begins from 2015 and AVP: Unleashed from 2017), and countless other merchandise and events, so Fox clearly has no interest in dissolving the shared universe anytime soon.
Then came Ridley Scott's two prequel films Prometheus in 2012 and Alien: Covenant in 2017 and divided the fanbase further and even though they technically take place within the same universe as the previous nine films (especially when no evident contradictions exists) we don't really speak about these. Although we have to note that the Fire and Stone (2014-2015) and Life and Death (2016-2017) comic books by Dark Horse Comics actually ties together the Alien, Predator, Alien vs. Predator, and Prometheus brands quite explicitly and again confirms continuity, and the events covered in these comics were even acknowledged in the popular Alien: The Weyland-Yutani Report (2014-2016) in the "Company Time Line" section.
Also, to address the common claim that the company histories of Charles Bishop Weyland and Sir Peter Weyland supposedly contradicy each other, I'm going to say that is absolutely false, as there are no contradictions here whatsoever. Charles Weyland formed Weyland Industries sometime around the 1960's or 1970's whereas Peter Weyland was first born on October 1, 1990, and could thus easily be the son of Charles Weyland. Peter's father was after all unnamed and described as a self-taught engineer, which fits with Charles. Interestingly enough, Peter secured a patent for a synthetic trachea on October 1, 2004, and could potentially have cured Charles of his bronchogenic carcinoma (lung cancer), shortly before Charles was declared deceased on October 10, 2004, and it would take eight years before Peter became of age and founded the new Weyland Corporation in 2012, though still keeping the old Weyland Industries intact and the name featured on the corporate website and promotional material for instance.
Peter could simply be understood as having inherited his father's assets and bringing the company back into the spotlight and towards its interstellar destiny (along with Yutani Corporation and the Predator handgun acquired by Miss Yutani from Gunnison, Colorado, in 2004 which aided in the development of such advanced technologies as FTL drives, as according to the directors). Weyland Industries is also mentioned in a Sevastolink terminal in the 2014 video game Alien: Isolation and Weyland Corporation is featured on the main meny of the 2013 video game AVP: Evolution.
However I'm certainly not the first to suggest this. Alien Theory further elaborates on this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkc4_9YIqI0
Further addressing another common claim that the synthetic David supposedly created the Xenomorphs in Alien: Covenant and thus setting up a supposed contradiction with the AVP films featuring Xenomorphs on Earth in 2004, this is not actually made clear in the movie itself, but it leaves such an issue up to interpretation. However, this is cleared up in the official novelization by Alan Dean Foster (who not only wrote the first three Alien novelizations but also wrote a tie-in novel to the film titled Alien: Covenant - Origins), where David elaborates and states quite clearly that he did in fact NOT create the Xenomorphs, but the Engineers (Space Jockeys) actually did, and David merely used what they had already created, including the black goo pathogen and pre-existing Ovomorphs (that is Xenomorph eggs), to create his own variants of these star beasts or "perfect organisms". Prometheus itself showed that Xenomorph-like creatures are very easily produced through the black goo, and this substance has seemingly existed for billions of years, giving more than enough time for Xenomorphs to be produced several times, and even if it were true that David was the ultimate creator of the Xenomorphs, you still could not rule out time travel (but we clearly don't need to go there).
Noting further that if the very existence of AVP/AVPR and the Predator films for that matter weren't enough to prove that David didn't create the Xenomorphs, then perhaps the home video release of Prometheus would change your mind with its inclusion of Peter Weyland's log "Quite Eye" which quite clearly states that the company already detected the distress signal from the crashed Derelict ship (containing all those Ovomorphs) on LV-426 before the events of Prometheus/Covenant (and it would be consistent with Captain Dallas' assessment of the Space Jockey pilot being fossilized and implied to be ancient). Even the now-defunct online MU/TH/UR 6000 interface on the Alien Universe website had classified information on such topics as Predators/Yautja.
Then of course came The Predator in 2018 and further confirmed that the shared universe indeed still remains intact, with several references to Alien vs. Predator from 2004 such as Lex's spear which the Scar Predator made out of a Xenomorph's tail, as well as references to the Alien films such as the alternate endings which were approved, produced, and filmed featuring Ripley and Newt (which would seemingly suggest time travel technology and thus set up the arrival of Neill Blomkamp's Alien 5 and allow for his film and Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection to exist simultaneously).
After all, Fox is sitting on a real goldmine with the shared universe (if only they could handle it better), and they may indeed still be interested in going forward with AVP3 (as even Shane Black would suggest), especially now that they won't let Scott make any more Alien films after his recent failures. Personally, I completely acknowledge the shared universe as canon (not to mention how silly, petty, and unnecessarily confusing it would be to suggest some films takes place in some alternate universe), and I'm very welcoming of continuing to expand this shared franchise, especially seeing as I grew up with it and still loves it to death. Anyway, we'll see where it all goes from here on under the new rule of Disney.
No, AVP/AVPR/The EU before the reboot, is non-canon.
AVP's canon = AVP, AVPR, "The Predator" & AVP 2010.
Alien? No.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 01, 2019, 08:48:22 PM
No, AVP/AVPR/The EU before the reboot, is non-canon.
AVP's canon = AVP, AVPR, "The Predator" & AVP 2010.
Alien? No.
That is nonsense. All twelve films are canon.
Incorrect.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 01, 2019, 09:37:12 PM
Incorrect.
Proof? Did you even read my original post?
I've read pages and pages of posts like yours, for years and yours- it's still incorrect.
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=60606.0
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=57409.330
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 01, 2019, 09:53:54 PM
I've read pages and pages of posts like yours, for years and yours- it's still incorrect.
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=60606.0
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=57409.330
So you're unable to refute my statements then? Alright.
The Alien universe = Peter Weyland created Weyland Corporation and David created the Alien.
AvP uses Corporation and Industries as interchangeable terms. And since the company already existed there would be no need for Peter to create a new one. Additionally one of Weyland's prime motives in AvP is leaving a legacy - he forgot he had a genius for a son?
Fox does not consider Alien and AvP to be a shared universe. At least right now. Predator and AvP however do seem to be shared.
AVP and AVPR are a separate universe, but Predators do exist in the peter weyland universe per fire and stone.
Are we sure Fire and Stone is still canon?
I think Hicks just said so two days ago.
That's good enough for now.
I'll just repeat what I said before, then you may attempt to refute it;
Honestly, I feel it's obvious that Fox considers these franchises and every single installment - from Alien (1979), Aliens (1986), Predator (1987), Predator 2 (1990), Alien 3 (1992), Alien Resurrection (1997), Alien vs. Predator (2004), Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem (2007), Predators (2010), Prometheus (2012), Alien: Covenant (2017), to The Predator (2018) - to be canonical to each other, they simply act in a manner of continuity similar to the Marvel Cinematic Universe where there are crossovers and separate storylines but they all ultimately take place within the very same fictional (and profitable) universe.
It began with Dark Horse Comics first suggesting the concept of the shared universe in 1989 (and had been expanding upon it ever since), and Fox soon officially initiated the concept in 1990 with Predator 2 and the famous Xenomorph skull in the Yautja trophy room, and attempted to produce a feature film throughout the following decade until it was officially cemented together with Alien vs. Predator in 2004 and Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem in 2007, and both films undeniably existing in continuity with both the Alien and Predator films as even openly expressed by the cast and crew behind the films (the directors in particular). Noting that AVPR actually features a Space Jockey skull in the trophy room.
Then in the same vein as Marvel's Iron Man 3, the 2010 release of Predators continued on a separate storyline but still existed within the same continuity as all previous eight Alien/Predator films and even featured several references to James Cameron's Aliens from 1986 (as this film was intended to act as the Predator-equivalent to Cameron's film) and included, as the director revealed, a Xenomorph lower jaw on the Berserker Predator's mask.
The shared universe would also be further expanded upon through various home video releases (such as Alien/AVP/Predator - The Ultimate Annihilation: Nine Movie Collection), video games (notably Aliens vs. Predator from 2010, AVP: Evolution from 2013, and Aliens vs. Pinball from 2016), comic books, novels, boardgames (such as AVP: The Hunt Begins from 2015 and AVP: Unleashed from 2017), and countless other merchandise and events, so Fox clearly has no interest in dissolving the shared universe anytime soon.
Then came Ridley Scott's two prequel films Prometheus in 2012 and Alien: Covenant in 2017 and divided the fanbase further and even though they technically take place within the same universe as the previous nine films (especially when no evident contradictions exists) we don't really speak about these. Although we have to note that the Fire and Stone (2014-2015) and Life and Death (2016-2017) comic books by Dark Horse Comics actually ties together the Alien, Predator, Alien vs. Predator, and Prometheus brands quite explicitly and again confirms continuity, and the events covered in these comics were even acknowledged in the popular Alien: The Weyland-Yutani Report (2014-2016) in the "Company Time Line" section.
Also, to address the common claim that the company histories of Charles Bishop Weyland and Sir Peter Weyland supposedly contradicy each other, I'm going to say that is absolutely false, as there are no contradictions here whatsoever. Charles Weyland formed Weyland Industries sometime around the 1960's or 1970's whereas Peter Weyland was first born on October 1, 1990, and could thus easily be the son of Charles Weyland. Peter's father was after all unnamed and described as a self-taught engineer, which fits with Charles. Interestingly enough, Peter secured a patent for a synthetic trachea on October 1, 2004, and could potentially have cured Charles of his bronchogenic carcinoma (lung cancer), shortly before Charles was declared deceased on October 10, 2004, and it would take eight years before Peter became of age and founded the new Weyland Corporation in 2012, though still keeping the old Weyland Industries intact and the name featured on the corporate website and promotional material for instance.
Peter could simply be understood as having inherited his father's assets and bringing the company back into the spotlight and towards its interstellar destiny (along with Yutani Corporation and the Predator handgun acquired by Miss Yutani from Gunnison, Colorado, in 2004 which aided in the development of such advanced technologies as FTL drives, as according to the directors). Weyland Industries is also mentioned in a Sevastolink terminal in the 2014 video game Alien: Isolation and Weyland Corporation is featured on the main meny of the 2013 video game AVP: Evolution.
However I'm certainly not the first to suggest this. Alien Theory further elaborates on this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkc4_9YIqI0
Further addressing another common claim that the synthetic David supposedly created the Xenomorphs in Alien: Covenant and thus setting up a supposed contradiction with the AVP films featuring Xenomorphs on Earth in 2004, this is not actually made clear in the movie itself, but it leaves such an issue up to interpretation. However, this is cleared up in the official novelization by Alan Dean Foster (who not only wrote the first three Alien novelizations but also wrote a tie-in novel to the film titled Alien: Covenant - Origins), where David elaborates and states quite clearly that he did in fact NOT create the Xenomorphs, but the Engineers (Space Jockeys) actually did, and David merely used what they had already created, including the black goo pathogen and pre-existing Ovomorphs (that is Xenomorph eggs), to create his own variants of these star beasts or "perfect organisms". Prometheus itself showed that Xenomorph-like creatures are very easily produced through the black goo, and this substance has seemingly existed for billions of years, giving more than enough time for Xenomorphs to be produced several times, and even if it were true that David was the ultimate creator of the Xenomorphs, you still could not rule out time travel (but we clearly don't need to go there).
Noting further that if the very existence of AVP/AVPR and the Predator films for that matter weren't enough to prove that David didn't create the Xenomorphs, then perhaps the home video release of Prometheus would change your mind with its inclusion of Peter Weyland's log "Quite Eye" which quite clearly states that the company already detected the distress signal from the crashed Derelict ship (containing all those Ovomorphs) on LV-426 before the events of Prometheus/Covenant (and it would be consistent with Captain Dallas' assessment of the Space Jockey pilot being fossilized and implied to be ancient). Even the now-defunct online MU/TH/UR 6000 interface on the Alien Universe website had classified information on such topics as Predators/Yautja.
Then of course came The Predator in 2018 and further confirmed that the shared universe indeed still remains intact, with several references to Alien vs. Predator from 2004 such as Lex's spear which the Scar Predator made out of a Xenomorph's tail, as well as references to the Alien films such as the alternate endings which were approved, produced, and filmed featuring Ripley and Newt (which would seemingly suggest time travel technology and thus set up the arrival of Neill Blomkamp's Alien 5 and allow for his film and Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection to exist simultaneously).
After all, Fox is sitting on a real goldmine with the shared universe (if only they could handle it better), and they may indeed still be interested in going forward with AVP3 (as even Shane Black would suggest), especially now that they won't let Scott make any more Alien films after his recent failures. Personally, I completely acknowledge the shared universe as canon (not to mention how silly, petty, and unnecessarily confusing it would be to suggest some films takes place in some alternate universe), and I'm very welcoming of continuing to expand this shared franchise, especially seeing as I grew up with it and still loves it to death. Anyway, we'll see where it all goes from here on under the new rule of Disney.
Nah, just read the threads.
It's already been refuted.
& this is becoming spam.
QuoteHonestly, I feel it's obvious that Fox considers these franchises and every single installment - from Alien (1979), Aliens (1986), Predator (1987), Predator 2 (1990), Alien 3 (1992), Alien Resurrection (1997), Alien vs. Predator (2004), Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem (2007), Predators (2010), Prometheus (2012), Alien: Covenant (2017), to The Predator (2018) - to be canonical to each other,
Except the part where someone who does work with Fox flat out says "They don't consider them all canon to each other."
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/da46a5f78a05773ce44411fe93b02e65/tumblr_omo2i1PoOH1uijsn1o1_250.gif)
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 09:49:55 AM
Nah, just read the threads.
It's already been refuted.
& this is becoming spam.
The threads are diluted and not addressing my arguments. If you'll only respond to me with effortless responses like this then I'm going to assume you actually have no argument to make.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 02, 2019, 10:15:44 AM
QuoteHonestly, I feel it's obvious that Fox considers these franchises and every single installment - from Alien (1979), Aliens (1986), Predator (1987), Predator 2 (1990), Alien 3 (1992), Alien Resurrection (1997), Alien vs. Predator (2004), Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem (2007), Predators (2010), Prometheus (2012), Alien: Covenant (2017), to The Predator (2018) - to be canonical to each other,
Except the part where someone who does work with Fox flat out says "They don't consider them all canon to each other."
Proof? If you can't prove it then I call nonsense.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 10:30:02 AM
https://66.media.tumblr.com/da46a5f78a05773ce44411fe93b02e65/tumblr_omo2i1PoOH1uijsn1o1_250.gif
Now you're just getting obnoxious.
If fox considers them non-canon then there is nothing you can say that matters, if you personally take them as canon then fair enough but to state it as fact when the people who hold the rights say otherwise is just not going to fly. SM has worked with fox, if he says fox doesn't consider them canon to each then that is that. Also there was a twitter feed a month or so back from someone working for them stating the same.
Both Ridley's comments and Covenant itself should make it obvious that the avp movies are no longer canon, at least to the Alien franchise.
^
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 10:39:19 AM
Proof? If you can't prove it then I call nonsense.
SM works with Fox's licensing people when they plan out new novels. Fox's stance is that the AvP films are not canon to the Alien films.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 02, 2019, 12:25:08 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 10:39:19 AM
Proof? If you can't prove it then I call nonsense.
SM works with Fox's licensing people when they plan out new novels. Fox's stance is that the AvP films are not canon to the Alien films.
We already established licensing has nothing to do with canon and everything has its separate license.
Here's the Alien film canon all, past and present:
"AVP" was indeed canon (and subsequently AVP-R), and designed as a
prequel to "Alien". Per Paul Anderson:
- "The movie is designed to be a sequel to the Predator movies and a prequel to the Alien movies. In no way does it contradict or go against anything in the Alien franchise. We've been very careful about that. It's set present day and on earth, so it's like 150 years before Sigourney Weaver's out in space. It really makes sense. When you see this movie and then those movies, well I understand why she was completely ignorant of the existence of Aliens, but the Weyland-Yutani people did have an awareness of them. In that respect, there is a mythology to it (and there is a lot of mythology in the movie), but it is more related to Earth history rather than the history of Aliens and Predators. I'm not trying to explain away their genesis or anything like that. The idea is very much inspired by something Ron Cobb did for the very first Alien movie. I don't know if any of you have the original Alien book (which was done ages ago), but it had some original artwork from Alien for the pyramid that was never built ... Ron Cobb did some really cool designs, which were hieroglyphics showing the eggs &#Array; and that was very much an inspiration for this movie. It was a strand of Alien mythology that existed already but that never made it in Ridley Scott's movie."
But once AVP's least favorite fan Ridley Scott got back into the game, Ridley
retconned AVP out. As per "Prometheus" writer Damion Lindeloff:
- "When I said to [Ridley Scott], 'You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies,' he just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process."
which is a very long way of saying "Fox's stance is that the AvP films are not canon to the Alien films."
Quote from: SM on Feb 02, 2019, 12:56:08 PM
which is a very long way of saying "Fox's stance is that the AvP films are not canon to the Alien films."
Yep. Just backing up with details. :)
Quote from: The Cruentus on Feb 02, 2019, 12:14:07 PM
If fox considers them non-canon then there is nothing you can say that matters, if you personally take them as canon then fair enough but to state it as fact when the people who hold the rights say otherwise is just not going to fly. SM has worked with fox, if he says fox doesn't consider them canon to each then that is that. Also there was a twitter feed a month or so back from someone working for them stating the same.
Both Ridley's comments and Covenant itself should make it obvious that the avp movies are no longer canon, at least to the Alien franchise.
I just explained in my initial comment quite clearly that Fox evidently do consider all twelve films canonical as well as how
Alien: Covenant doesn't take any stance on the matter at all, and as far as Ridley Scott's comments are concerned, they really are of no value in the grand scheme of things, especially now that
The Predator has further contradicted his suggestions. If you personally prefer to exclude some entries from the canon then go right ahead, but former considerations in mind, you cannot possibly state with a clear conscience that Fox has excluded any entries from the official canon. Noting that, as I keep saying to anyone who repeats the claim, if there is any representative of Fox who has disclosed contrary information, then please do cite it, or have the claim be rendered worthless nonsense.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 02, 2019, 12:25:08 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 10:39:19 AM
Proof? If you can't prove it then I call nonsense.
SM works with Fox's licensing people when they plan out new novels. Fox's stance is that the AvP films are not canon to the Alien films.
Who is "SM"? Please provide sources!
That'd be me.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 02, 2019, 12:46:10 PM
Quote from: SiL on Feb 02, 2019, 12:25:08 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 10:39:19 AM
Proof? If you can't prove it then I call nonsense.
SM works with Fox's licensing people when they plan out new novels. Fox's stance is that the AvP films are not canon to the Alien films.
We already established licensing has nothing to do with canon and everything has its separate license.
Here's the Alien film canon all, past and present:
"AVP" was indeed canon (and subsequently AVP-R), and designed as a prequel to "Alien". Per Paul Anderson:
- "The movie is designed to be a sequel to the Predator movies and a prequel to the Alien movies. In no way does it contradict or go against anything in the Alien franchise. We've been very careful about that. It's set present day and on earth, so it's like 150 years before Sigourney Weaver's out in space. It really makes sense. When you see this movie and then those movies, well I understand why she was completely ignorant of the existence of Aliens, but the Weyland-Yutani people did have an awareness of them. In that respect, there is a mythology to it (and there is a lot of mythology in the movie), but it is more related to Earth history rather than the history of Aliens and Predators. I'm not trying to explain away their genesis or anything like that. The idea is very much inspired by something Ron Cobb did for the very first Alien movie. I don't know if any of you have the original Alien book (which was done ages ago), but it had some original artwork from Alien for the pyramid that was never built ... Ron Cobb did some really cool designs, which were hieroglyphics showing the eggs &#Array; and that was very much an inspiration for this movie. It was a strand of Alien mythology that existed already but that never made it in Ridley Scott's movie."
But once AVP's least favorite fan Ridley Scott got back into the game, Ridley retconned AVP out. As per "Prometheus" writer Damion Lindeloff:
- "When I said to [Ridley Scott], 'You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies,' he just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process."
First, I'm glad we can agree that
AVP at the very least "was" considered canonical. Second, the comment by Lindelof clearly wasn't intended to be read as
AVP supposedly being "retconned" (which would itself be contradicted by such titles as
Fire and Stone,
Life and Death,
The Weyland-Yutani Report,
AVP: Evolution, and
The Predator), but rather as the simple disregard of the events taking place in
AVP, just as
Predators disregarded these events but still existed within the same universe. Besides, with the case I made in my initial comment it seems clear that all twelve films remain canonical.
Quote from: SM on Feb 02, 2019, 01:20:36 PM
That'd be me.
Pleasure to meet you! So, would you care to fill us in here?
Quote from: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 08:32:04 PM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 01:30:00 PM
Who says?
When considering AVP do they not all fall under the same banner?
The people I work with at Fox says.
AvP is it's own separate unconnected license.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 01:30:36 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 08:32:04 PM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 01:30:00 PM
Who says?
When considering AVP do they not all fall under the same banner?
The people I work with at Fox says.
AvP is it's own separate unconnected license.
That's a licensing issue, not a canonical issue.
No it's a canon issue too. When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.
Sometimes I read something here thats been covered a million times and think "Whats the point?"
He won't believe it until SM proves it and why bother? When this is like the 1000th time SM would be asked to do so. And even if he does there will be another one right behind TurokSwe.
In any case he seems to have made up his mind and I doubt anyone will sway his opinion on the matter. Even though many of us here have been through this discussion numerous times and most of his points already refuted time and again.
Word.
Quote from: SM on Feb 02, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
No it's a canon issue too. When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.
I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the
Alien or
Predator licenses won't be considering
AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of
Fire and Stone,
Life and Death, and
The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the
AVP license itself to fill out that role.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 02, 2019, 01:33:23 PM
Sometimes I read something here thats been covered a million times and think "Whats the point?"
He won't believe it until SM proves it and why bother? When this is like the 1000th time SM would be asked to do so. And even if he does there will be another one right behind TurokSwe.
In any case he seems to have made up his mind and I doubt anyone will sway his opinion on the matter. Even though many of us here have been through this discussion numerous times and most of his points already refuted time and again.
The reason I engage in these discussions is because I'm confident that I have a strong enough case for my stance in considering all twelve films (and any potential future films) canonical to each other and I have yet to hear a proper refutation of any of it (and referencing past discussions which I'm not aware of, and which may indeed not be appropriate or adequate, will do little to change anything). Admittedly we will all hold on to the option which we personally prefer, but I would dare say the evidence is much more in favor of the shared universe remaining intact.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 02, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
No it's a canon issue too. When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.
I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.
If AVP stuff is not considered for the development of new stories in the Alien universe it is not canon to it.
If it would be, they would consider it to avoid contradictions.
There is the charles bishop weyland universe and the peter weyland universe. Predators just exist in both.
Quote from: SM on Oct 19, 2018, 06:04:24 AM
Quote
*The canon 'bible' Fox is using for the Alien series does not include the AVP films according to those who made Alien Covenant.
I can verify this.
+
Quote from: SM on Apr 16, 2018, 06:08:20 AM
AvP is cinematically tainted.
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 02, 2019, 01:46:58 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 02, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
No it's a canon issue too. When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.
I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.
If AVP stuff is not considered for the development of new stories in the Alien universe it is not canon to it.
If it would be, they would consider it to avoid contradictions.
That is of course flawed logic.
AVP wasn't considered for the development of
Predators, yet still takes place within the same universe. Neither
Alien nor
Predator stories are required to consider past works, especially if they don't actually contradict said past works (though one could argue that the technology present in
Prometheus/Covenant was contradictory to the
Alien films).
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 02, 2019, 01:47:50 PM
There is the charles bishop weyland universe and the peter weyland universe. Predators just exist in both.
The evidence seem to support a single shared universe, as I already argued for in my initial comment on this thread.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 01:49:04 PM
Quote from: SM on Oct 19, 2018, 06:04:24 AM
Quote
*The canon 'bible' Fox is using for the Alien series does not include the AVP films according to those who made Alien Covenant.
I can verify this.
+
Quote from: SM on Apr 16, 2018, 06:08:20 AM
AvP is cinematically tainted.
Which (if even true) of course means nothing.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:57:27 PM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 02, 2019, 01:46:58 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 02, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
No it's a canon issue too. When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.
I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.
If AVP stuff is not considered for the development of new stories in the Alien universe it is not canon to it.
If it would be, they would consider it to avoid contradictions.
That is of course flawed logic. AVP wasn't considered for the development of Predators, yet still takes place within the same universe. Neither Alien nor Predator stories are required to consider past works, especially if they don't actually contradict said past works (though one could argue that the technology present in Prometheus/Covenant was contradictory to the Alien films).
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 02, 2019, 01:47:50 PM
There is the charles bishop weyland universe and the peter weyland universe. Predators just exist in both.
The evidence seem to support a single shared universe, as I already argued for in my initial comment on this thread.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 01:49:04 PM
Quote from: SM on Oct 19, 2018, 06:04:24 AM
Quote
*The canon 'bible' Fox is using for the Alien series does not include the AVP films according to those who made Alien Covenant.
I can verify this.
+
Quote from: SM on Apr 16, 2018, 06:08:20 AM
AvP is cinematically tainted.
Which (if even true) of course means nothing.
Your case seems to boil down to 'because I say so, more is pointing to my opinion' for the most part.
I don't think you will sway anyone's mind with that and think you are frankly put, wasting your time.
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 02, 2019, 02:03:25 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:57:27 PM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 02, 2019, 01:46:58 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 02, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
No it's a canon issue too. When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.
I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.
If AVP stuff is not considered for the development of new stories in the Alien universe it is not canon to it.
If it would be, they would consider it to avoid contradictions.
That is of course flawed logic. AVP wasn't considered for the development of Predators, yet still takes place within the same universe. Neither Alien nor Predator stories are required to consider past works, especially if they don't actually contradict said past works (though one could argue that the technology present in Prometheus/Covenant was contradictory to the Alien films).
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 02, 2019, 01:47:50 PM
There is the charles bishop weyland universe and the peter weyland universe. Predators just exist in both.
The evidence seem to support a single shared universe, as I already argued for in my initial comment on this thread.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 01:49:04 PM
Quote from: SM on Oct 19, 2018, 06:04:24 AM
Quote
*The canon 'bible' Fox is using for the Alien series does not include the AVP films according to those who made Alien Covenant.
I can verify this.
+
Quote from: SM on Apr 16, 2018, 06:08:20 AM
AvP is cinematically tainted.
Which (if even true) of course means nothing.
Your case seems to boil down to 'because I say so, more is pointing to my opinion' for the most part.
I don't think you will sway anyone's mind with that and think you are frankly put, wasting your time.
Did you read my original comment? Would you care to properly explain why the contents of said comment wasn't adequate? I would dare say I'm holding more to verifiable facts than most people do in these discussions, and I have found that the people who prefers to exclude some installments (regardless if it be
AVP,
Alien 3, or any other of the twelve films) from the canon are the ones who are more prone to act as if their personal opinions were unquestionable fact.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 02:08:04 PM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 02, 2019, 02:03:25 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:57:27 PM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 02, 2019, 01:46:58 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 02, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
No it's a canon issue too. When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.
I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.
If AVP stuff is not considered for the development of new stories in the Alien universe it is not canon to it.
If it would be, they would consider it to avoid contradictions.
That is of course flawed logic. AVP wasn't considered for the development of Predators, yet still takes place within the same universe. Neither Alien nor Predator stories are required to consider past works, especially if they don't actually contradict said past works (though one could argue that the technology present in Prometheus/Covenant was contradictory to the Alien films).
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 02, 2019, 01:47:50 PM
There is the charles bishop weyland universe and the peter weyland universe. Predators just exist in both.
The evidence seem to support a single shared universe, as I already argued for in my initial comment on this thread.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 01:49:04 PM
Quote from: SM on Oct 19, 2018, 06:04:24 AM
Quote
*The canon 'bible' Fox is using for the Alien series does not include the AVP films according to those who made Alien Covenant.
I can verify this.
+
Quote from: SM on Apr 16, 2018, 06:08:20 AM
AvP is cinematically tainted.
Which (if even true) of course means nothing.
Your case seems to boil down to 'because I say so, more is pointing to my opinion' for the most part.
I don't think you will sway anyone's mind with that and think you are frankly put, wasting your time.
Did you read my original comment? Would you care to properly explain why the contents of said comment wasn't adequate? I would dare say I'm holding more to verifiable facts than most people do in these discussions, and I have found that the people who prefers to exclude some installments (regardless if it be AVP, Alien 3, or any other of the twelve films) from the canon are the ones who are more prone to act as if their personal opinions were unquestionable fact.
Yes I did.
There is nothing that has not been brought up a dozen times in the short time I'am on this forum.
Probably a lot of times more in the past.
Iam pretty sure you will find every relevant point addressed here somewhere.
At the very least he should comb through "David the Creator" in general discusion.
Maybe we should discuss the egg on the sulaco again. :laugh:
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 02, 2019, 02:49:02 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 02:08:04 PM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 02, 2019, 02:03:25 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:57:27 PM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 02, 2019, 01:46:58 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 02, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
No it's a canon issue too. When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.
I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.
If AVP stuff is not considered for the development of new stories in the Alien universe it is not canon to it.
If it would be, they would consider it to avoid contradictions.
That is of course flawed logic. AVP wasn't considered for the development of Predators, yet still takes place within the same universe. Neither Alien nor Predator stories are required to consider past works, especially if they don't actually contradict said past works (though one could argue that the technology present in Prometheus/Covenant was contradictory to the Alien films).
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 02, 2019, 01:47:50 PM
There is the charles bishop weyland universe and the peter weyland universe. Predators just exist in both.
The evidence seem to support a single shared universe, as I already argued for in my initial comment on this thread.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 01:49:04 PM
Quote from: SM on Oct 19, 2018, 06:04:24 AM
Quote
*The canon 'bible' Fox is using for the Alien series does not include the AVP films according to those who made Alien Covenant.
I can verify this.
+
Quote from: SM on Apr 16, 2018, 06:08:20 AM
AvP is cinematically tainted.
Which (if even true) of course means nothing.
Your case seems to boil down to 'because I say so, more is pointing to my opinion' for the most part.
I don't think you will sway anyone's mind with that and think you are frankly put, wasting your time.
Did you read my original comment? Would you care to properly explain why the contents of said comment wasn't adequate? I would dare say I'm holding more to verifiable facts than most people do in these discussions, and I have found that the people who prefers to exclude some installments (regardless if it be AVP, Alien 3, or any other of the twelve films) from the canon are the ones who are more prone to act as if their personal opinions were unquestionable fact.
Yes I did.
There is nothing that has not been brought up a dozen times in the short time I'am on this forum.
Probably a lot of times more in the past.
Iam pretty sure you will find every relevant point addressed here somewhere.
So why not properly address and refute my original comment then?
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 02, 2019, 02:52:06 PM
At the very least he should comb through "David the Creator" in general discusion.
Maybe we should discuss the egg on the sulaco again. :laugh:
At the very least you could easily explain if there are issues with my initial comment and discussing it, rather than continually cop-out by referring to similar and random diluted discussions which doesn't properly address my arguments.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 01, 2019, 07:01:28 PM
Honestly, I feel it's obvious that Fox considers these franchises and every single installment - from Alien (1979), Aliens (1986), Predator (1987), Predator 2 (1990), Alien 3 (1992), Alien Resurrection (1997), Alien vs. Predator (2004), Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem (2007), Predators (2010), Prometheus (2012), Alien: Covenant (2017), to The Predator (2018) - to be canonical to each other, they simply act in a manner of continuity similar to the Marvel Cinematic Universe where there are crossovers and separate storylines but they all ultimately take place within the very same fictional (and profitable) universe.
Irrelevant.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 01, 2019, 07:01:28 PM
It began with Dark Horse Comics first suggesting the concept of the shared universe in 1989 (and had been expanding upon it ever since), and Fox soon officially initiated the concept in 1990 with Predator 2 and the famous Xenomorph skull in the Yautja trophy room, and attempted to produce a feature film throughout the following decade until it was officially cemented together with Alien vs. Predator in 2004 and Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem in 2007, and both films undeniably existing in continuity with both the Alien and Predator films as even openly expressed by the cast and crew behind the films (the directors in particular). Noting that AVPR actually features a Space Jockey skull in the trophy room.
Easteregg or Predator movies are canon to AVP. David created the creature later, contradiction right here.
They existed in continuity and were canon at that time yes. Having since been retconned with Prometheus/Covenant.
Space Jockeys have been retconned since, so it is a helmet at most. Still easteregg or Predator universe is canon to AVP one.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 01, 2019, 07:01:28 PM
Then in the same vein as Marvel's Iron Man 3, the 2010 release of Predators continued on a separate storyline but still existed within the same continuity as all previous eight Alien/Predator films and even featured several references to James Cameron's Aliens from 1986 (as this film was intended to act as the Predator-equivalent to Cameron's film) and included, as the director revealed, a Xenomorph lower jaw on the Berserker Predator's mask.
Iron man 3 directly references events from the avengers. Predators only references events from Predator. Plural in the titel does not count.
Where do you get the xeno jaw info from? It looks nothing like one to be sure. All i could find on the fly was that it was some IMDB trivia.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 01, 2019, 07:01:28 PM
The shared universe would also be further expanded upon through various home video releases (such as Alien/AVP/Predator - The Ultimate Annihilation: Nine Movie Collection), video games (notably Aliens vs. Predator from 2010, AVP: Evolution from 2013, and Aliens vs. Pinball from 2016), comic books, novels, boardgames (such as AVP: The Hunt Begins from 2015 and AVP: Unleashed from 2017), and countless other merchandise and events, so Fox clearly has no interest in dissolving the shared universe anytime soon.
Irrelevant to the topic as there is at least a seperate AVP to commercialize.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 01, 2019, 07:01:28 PM
Then came Ridley Scott's two prequel films Prometheus in 2012 and Alien: Covenant in 2017 and divided the fanbase further and even though they technically take place within the same universe as the previous nine films (especially when no evident contradictions exists) we don't really speak about these. Although we have to note that the Fire and Stone (2014-2015) and Life and Death (2016-2017) comic books by Dark Horse Comics actually ties together the Alien, Predator, Alien vs. Predator, and Prometheus brands quite explicitly and again confirms continuity, and the events covered in these comics were even acknowledged in the popular Alien: The Weyland-Yutani Report (2014-2016) in the "Company Time Line" section.
I have not read FaS/LaD in a long time, but i seem to recall that covenant retconned it.If only with having David as the origin of the xenomorph. Somebody who knows more about that may give you a better explanation.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 01, 2019, 07:01:28 PM
Also, to address the common claim that the company histories of Charles Bishop Weyland and Sir Peter Weyland supposedly contradicy each other, I'm going to say that is absolutely false, as there are no contradictions here whatsoever. Charles Weyland formed Weyland Industries sometime around the 1960's or 1970's whereas Peter Weyland was first born on October 1, 1990, and could thus easily be the son of Charles Weyland. Peter's father was after all unnamed and described as a self-taught engineer, which fits with Charles. Interestingly enough, Peter secured a patent for a synthetic trachea on October 1, 2004, and could potentially have cured Charles of his bronchogenic carcinoma (lung cancer), shortly before Charles was declared deceased on October 10, 2004, and it would take eight years before Peter became of age and founded the new Weyland Corporation in 2012, though still keeping the old Weyland Industries intact and the name featured on the corporate website and promotional material for instance.
Peter could simply be understood as having inherited his father's assets and bringing the company back into the spotlight and towards its interstellar destiny (along with Yutani Corporation and the Predator handgun acquired by Miss Yutani from Gunnison, Colorado, in 2004 which aided in the development of such advanced technologies as FTL drives, as according to the directors). Weyland Industries is also mentioned in a Sevastolink terminal in the 2014 video game Alien: Isolation and Weyland Corporation is featured on the main meny of the 2013 video game AVP: Evolution.
However I'm certainly not the first to suggest this. Alien Theory further elaborates on this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkc4_9YIqI0
Guesswork/Fantheory.
There is a whole thread about the Weylands that discusses that.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 01, 2019, 07:01:28 PM
Further addressing another common claim that the synthetic David supposedly created the Xenomorphs in Alien: Covenant and thus setting up a supposed contradiction with the AVP films featuring Xenomorphs on Earth in 2004, this is not actually made clear in the movie itself, but it leaves such an issue up to interpretation. However, this is cleared up in the official novelization by Alan Dean Foster (who not only wrote the first three Alien novelizations but also wrote a tie-in novel to the film titled Alien: Covenant - Origins), where David elaborates and states quite clearly that he did in fact NOT create the Xenomorphs, but the Engineers (Space Jockeys) actually did, and David merely used what they had already created, including the black goo pathogen and pre-existing Ovomorphs (that is Xenomorph eggs), to create his own variants of these star beasts or "perfect organisms". Prometheus itself showed that Xenomorph-like creatures are very easily produced through the black goo, and this substance has seemingly existed for billions of years, giving more than enough time for Xenomorphs to be produced several times, and even if it were true that David was the ultimate creator of the Xenomorphs, you still could not rule out time travel (but we clearly don't need to go there).
Noting further that if the very existence of AVP/AVPR and the Predator films for that matter weren't enough to prove that David didn't create the Xenomorphs, then perhaps the home video release of Prometheus would change your mind with its inclusion of Peter Weyland's log "Quite Eye" which quite clearly states that the company already detected the distress signal from the crashed Derelict ship (containing all those Ovomorphs) on LV-426 before the events of Prometheus/Covenant (and it would be consistent with Captain Dallas' assessment of the Space Jockey pilot being fossilized and implied to be ancient). Even the now-defunct online MU/TH/UR 6000 interface on the Alien Universe website had classified information on such topics as Predators/Yautja.
There has been about 3 threads about David as the creator that discusses that.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 01, 2019, 07:01:28 PM
Then of course came The Predator in 2018 and further confirmed that the shared universe indeed still remains intact, with several references to Alien vs. Predator from 2004 such as Lex's spear which the Scar Predator made out of a Xenomorph's tail, as well as references to the Alien films such as the alternate endings which were approved, produced, and filmed featuring Ripley and Newt (which would seemingly suggest time travel technology and thus set up the arrival of Neill Blomkamp's Alien 5 and allow for his film and Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection to exist simultaneously).
Easteregg or AvP is canon to the Predator universe only.
Alternate ending does not count in any way, would contradict every Alien film anyway as Ripley and Newt are both not born at that time and are currently both dead. An unproduced film does not count either.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 01, 2019, 07:01:28 PM
After all, Fox is sitting on a real goldmine with the shared universe (if only they could handle it better), and they may indeed still be interested in going forward with AVP3 (as even Shane Black would suggest), especially now that they won't let Scott make any more Alien films after his recent failures. Personally, I completely acknowledge the shared universe as canon (not to mention how silly, petty, and unnecessarily confusing it would be to suggest some films takes place in some alternate universe), and I'm very welcoming of continuing to expand this shared franchise, especially seeing as I grew up with it and still loves it to death. Anyway, we'll see where it all goes from here on under the new rule of Disney.
Irrelevant to the topic plus people who don't agree with me are petty/silly.
TLDR: Your whole case is build on the hypothesis that David did not create the xenomorph and that the two Weylands don't contradict themselves. If he did or they do, your whole case collapses as that would contradict everything else.
So every information you need is in the respective threads.
Disney will just retcon all this crap later on.
Maybe it's for the better.
That was probably one of the laziest responses I've ever seen.
QuoteIrrelevant.
It was an introductory statement making clear what seems to be the simplest and most reasonable approach. Hardly irrelevant.
QuoteEasteregg or Predator movies are canon to AVP.
It is an easter egg, but an officially endorsed one (the skull would after all require an in-universe explanation). The
Alien,
Predator, and
AVP films are all canon to each other. There is no clear separating line.
QuoteDavid created the creature later, contradiction right here.
Not a contradiction, since the claim isn't well-supported to begin with (as was cleared up later on in my response).
QuoteThey existed in continuity and were canon at that time yes.
Glad we can agree on that (so also the easter egg from before can be seriously considered).
QuoteHaving since been retconned with Prometheus/Covenant.
Which is a poorly supported claim.
QuoteSpace Jockeys have been retconned since, so it is a helmet at most.
Excuse me? Space Jockeys haven't been "retconned", they are featured in
Prometheus/Covenant for crying out loud! xD
QuoteStill easteregg or Predator universe is canon to AVP one.
Again, it is an easter egg, but that doesn't matter, and this is indeed a connection to the
Alien films (and
Prometheus/Covenant).
QuoteIron man 3 directly references events from the avengers. Predators only references events from Predator. Plural in the titel does not count.
That's because Stark's memories of the events played a role in the movie. The movie doesn't need to reference any particular former works in order for it to be understood as existing in the same universe. The plural title was added to emulate Cameron's
Aliens (as well as referring to both the alien Predators and the human predators), and there were many other references and similarities, such as Isabelle using the line "I'll do us both" to Edwin like Hicks did to Ripley, as well as the sole survivor Noland and the crew surviving within some sort of facility like Newt and company did. Robert Rodriguez did state after all that he was going to include
Aliens references as io9 reported.
QuoteWhere do you get the xeno jaw info from? It looks nothing like one to be sure. All i could find on the fly was that it was some IMDB trivia.
It was reported by Movieclips (noting that Xenomorphs can have different appearances and it does look Xenomorph-like); https://www.facebook.com/movieclips/photos/a.10150140182467139/10151396339407139/
QuoteIrrelevant to the topic as there is at least a seperate AVP to commercialize.
How is it "irrelevant"? There is only one
AVP license.
QuoteI have not read FaS/LaD in a long time, but i seem to recall that covenant retconned it.
It didn't, and in such a case I suppose it "retconned"
The Weyland-Yutani Report as well. All these claims that "this is retconned and this is non-canon" is absolutely getting silly.
QuoteIf only with having David as the origin of the xenomorph.
But again, that's apparently a false claim (as was again explained later on in my comment).
QuoteSomebody who knows more about that may give you a better explanation.
If you can't make an adequate case (but have to rely on somebody else doing it), then why even attempt to refute my points?
QuoteGuesswork/Fantheory.
It's not, as these words of mine were merely intended to demonstrate how there is no contradiction between Charles and Peter, as well as clarifying that the simplest understanding of the relationship of these two characters is that of a father and son. Whatever you choose to believe is up to you, I'm merely presenting the most reasonable explanation.
QuoteThere is a whole thread about the Weylands that discusses that.
Again, if you can't make a good and clear-cut case here (but have to continually refer to some random and diluted thread elsewhere which doesn't properly address my arguments), then why even bother to respond? It's nothing but disrespectful and lazy. No offense.
QuoteThere has been about 3 threads about David as the creator that discusses that.
Once more, if you can't address the issue, then why even bother to respond at all?
QuoteEasteregg or AvP is canon to the Predator universe only.
At this point you're just being obnoxious.
QuoteAlternate ending does not count in any way, would contradict every Alien film anyway as Ripley and Newt are both not born at that time and are currently both dead.
I believe you missed the point, it was the very fact that they actually approved, produced, and filmed these alternate scenes AT ALL which made it clear that Fox clearly considers the
Alien and
Predator films to be officially connected, otherwise they would never have even produced these scenes. Also, no, it wouldn't contradict any film, as these scenes would clearly indicate time travel (especially as Newt is shown to be an adult). There is absolutely no way you can reasonably explain all this away.
QuoteAn unproduced film does not count either.
I never said it did, and it sounds like you misunderstood what I was saying (perhaps you didn't carefully read my comment at all).
QuoteIrrelevant to the topic plus people who don't agree with me are petty/silly.
It was a closing statement absolutely relevant to the topic, and stating "how silly, petty, and unnecessarily confusing it would be to suggest some films takes place in some alternate universe" is merely me addressing ridiculous arguments and hopefully someone will take it to heart.
QuoteTLDR: Your whole case is build on the hypothesis that David did not create the xenomorph and that the two Weylands don't contradict themselves. If he did or they do, your whole case collapses as that would contradict everything else.
That is absolutely false. The portion dealing with Charles, Peter, and David was only one part of the entire case. Please, re-read my entire comment again carefully.
QuoteSo every information you need is in the respective threads.
Again, that's a lazy and disrespectful response, you might as well never have bothered to waste your time responding.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 02, 2019, 05:42:02 PM
Disney will just retcon all this crap later on.
There is no telling what Disney might do, they might just opt for a soft-reboot rendering the franchise PG-13, only time will tell.
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 02, 2019, 05:43:38 PM
Maybe it's for the better.
Perhaps it would be, though they might just go for a PG-13 soft-reboot. Though somehow it would still be a shame to leave all previous twelve films behind rather than building upon the universe they've established.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 06:43:54 PM
QuoteTLDR: Your whole case is build on the hypothesis that David did not create the xenomorph and that the two Weylands don't contradict themselves. If he did or they do, your whole case collapses as that would contradict everything else.
That is absolutely false. The portion dealing with Charles, Peter, and David was only one part of the entire case. Please, re-read my entire comment again carefully.
It all builds on David as the creator being "not well-supported" or "false". If you assume it to be actually true, your whole case folds.
If David creates the xenomorph that contradicts both AVP movies, the skull in P2, the jaw in Predators and FaS/LaD kicking them out of the Alien canon. And if Covenant kicks AVP out of the canon it does not matter anymore if or if not Peter contradicts Charles and how they are related.
You can claim it is false or not well-supported all you want, it is stated in Covenant and clarified by Ridley. David is or is not the creator is the only discussion that matters here, as your case stands or falls dependent on the result.
And there are enough threads about that already, it is not necessary to open yet another discussion about the same thing here.
Can we end this discussion forever by taking all the "everything is canon"-ers...
(https://y.yarn.co/a6a8d485-c7a4-42e1-8a36-49b4f50b2333_text_hi.gif)
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 02, 2019, 07:58:04 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 06:43:54 PM
QuoteTLDR: Your whole case is build on the hypothesis that David did not create the xenomorph and that the two Weylands don't contradict themselves. If he did or they do, your whole case collapses as that would contradict everything else.
That is absolutely false. The portion dealing with Charles, Peter, and David was only one part of the entire case. Please, re-read my entire comment again carefully.
It all builds on David as the creator being "not well-supported" or "false". If you assume it to be actually true, your whole case folds.
If David creates the xenomorph that contradicts both AVP movies, the skull in P2, the jaw in Predators and FaS/LaD kicking them out of the Alien canon. And if Covenant kicks AVP out of the canon it does not matter anymore if or if not Peter contradicts Charles and how they are related.
You can claim it is false or not well-supported all you want, it is stated in Covenant and clarified by Ridley. David is or is not the creator is the only discussion that matters here, as your case stands or falls dependent on the result.
And there are enough threads about that already, it is not necessary to open yet another discussion about the same thing here.
Again, the evidence as presented in my OP (both within
Prometheus/Covenant and outside) makes it very clear that David did not create the Xenomorphs, and even IF he did (noting that he clearly didn't), time travel could still not be ruled out, especially since
The Predator already hinted at this being possible. So no, my case does NOT rest on whether or not David created the Xenomorphs, but my case would stand regardless which option you choose to go with as I already explained in my OP. I repeat, the movie itself doesn't take a stance on the issue but leaves it up to interpretation, and the official novelization for the film as well as the home video release of
Prometheus (along with various other cited evidence) makes it abundantly clear that he did not create them (noting again that Scott's words on the matter are irrelevant not only because he constantly changes his mind but also because he's being contradicted by various other sources, such as
The Predator, as already outlined in my OP).
And ruin all the fun? I don't even remember an avpgalaxy without canon wars. Its part of it.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 09:04:02 PM
Can we end this discussion forever by taking all the "everything is canon"-ers...
https://y.yarn.co/a6a8d485-c7a4-42e1-8a36-49b4f50b2333_text_hi.gif
I'd rather suggest we give the "this and that is canon but this and that is non-canon"-ers this same treatment you're suggesting and finally unify the fanbase for once and stop causing unnecessary division.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 02, 2019, 09:10:41 PM
And ruin all the fun? I don't even remember an avpgalaxy before the canon wars. Its part of it.
Word!
You'd be drowning 80-90% lol.
You'd have... two and a half?
Members left to chat to.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 09:17:36 PM
You'd be drowning 80-90% lol.
You'd have... two and a half?
Members left to chat to.
Doubt it. ^^
Do you consider the entire EU canon?
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 02, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
No it's a canon issue too. When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.
I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 02, 2019, 01:33:23 PM
Sometimes I read something here thats been covered a million times and think "Whats the point?"
He won't believe it until SM proves it and why bother? When this is like the 1000th time SM would be asked to do so. And even if he does there will be another one right behind TurokSwe.
In any case he seems to have made up his mind and I doubt anyone will sway his opinion on the matter. Even though many of us here have been through this discussion numerous times and most of his points already refuted time and again.
The reason I engage in these discussions is because I'm confident that I have a strong enough case for my stance in considering all twelve films (and any potential future films) canonical to each other and I have yet to hear a proper refutation of any of it (and referencing past discussions which I'm not aware of, and which may indeed not be appropriate or adequate, will do little to change anything). Admittedly we will all hold on to the option which we personally prefer, but I would dare say the evidence is much more in favor of the shared universe remaining intact.
Alternately, just accept what you want and ignore what you don't, all other people's opinions be damned. No one is forced to adhere to "the official canon", which is a meaningless non-concept anyway at the audience level. If the AvP movies aren't "officially canon" to whatever, who gives a shit? What is FOX going to do, kick in your doors and take away your copies of the AvP movies at gunpoint, demanding that you never enjoy them ever again?
If you want to unify the fandom, the easiest and best way to do so is for people to enjoy what they want, since we're allegedly all fans of this stuff together. Arguing over what elements of a fictional franchise are "true" accomplishes nothing.
If you're interested in canon as a concept and want some food for thought, I strongly suggest you check out the links in my signature.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 09:37:59 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 02, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
No it's a canon issue too. When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.
I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Feb 02, 2019, 01:33:23 PM
Sometimes I read something here thats been covered a million times and think "Whats the point?"
He won't believe it until SM proves it and why bother? When this is like the 1000th time SM would be asked to do so. And even if he does there will be another one right behind TurokSwe.
In any case he seems to have made up his mind and I doubt anyone will sway his opinion on the matter. Even though many of us here have been through this discussion numerous times and most of his points already refuted time and again.
The reason I engage in these discussions is because I'm confident that I have a strong enough case for my stance in considering all twelve films (and any potential future films) canonical to each other and I have yet to hear a proper refutation of any of it (and referencing past discussions which I'm not aware of, and which may indeed not be appropriate or adequate, will do little to change anything). Admittedly we will all hold on to the option which we personally prefer, but I would dare say the evidence is much more in favor of the shared universe remaining intact.
Alternately, just accept what you want and ignore what you don't, all other people's opinions be damned. No one is forced to adhere to "the official canon", which is a meaningless non-concept anyway at the audience level. If the AvP movies aren't "officially canon" to whatever, who gives a shit? What is FOX going to do, kick in your doors and take away your copies of the AvP movies at gunpoint, demanding that you never enjoy them ever again?
If you want to unify the fandom, the easiest and best way to do so is for people to enjoy what they want, since we're allegedly all fans of this stuff together. Arguing over what elements of a fictional franchise are "true" accomplishes nothing.
If you're interested in canon as a concept and want some food for thought, I strongly suggest you check out the links in my signature.
I guess the problem is that I wish to engage with a likeminded fanbase where we can all enjoy and discuss this franchise together and explore how everything relates to everything else instead of complaining about everything and calling some things "non-canon" all the time. Noting that I did take note of your linked article and I'm still reviewing it. ^^
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 09:48:51 PM
I guess the problem is that I wish to engage with a likeminded fanbase where we can all enjoy and discuss this franchise together and explore how everything relates to everything else instead of complaining about everything and calling some things "non-canon" all the time. Noting that I did take note of your linked article and I'm still reviewing it. ^^
Articles, there are three links in my signature, you might have to scroll it to see them. :)
And you can engage in a likeminded fanbase and talk about how things relate to each other, but that doesn't mean you need to strongarm each other into agreeing what's "true" and what's not. The forums are broken down into sub-sections that cater to different lines of thought - if you like the AvP movies, you're in the right subforum. If you like the expanded universe, there's a place for that. If you only want to look at the Alien movies or whatever (or only the original Alien movies for that matter), there are places for that, too.
There are like-minded people all over the place, but like-minded doesn't mean hive-minded. You will never get everyone to agree on everything
and that's okay - the different opinions are what makes this place interesting and fun to engage with, as long as they're used productively. Simple like-mindedness results in an echo chamber of people patting each other on the back and jerking each other off to the sound of their own voices. Engaging with people who think differently from you allows you to think critically and expand your own horizons, even if in the end you opt to agree to disagree.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 09:41:45 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 09:40:59 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 09:26:10 PM
Do you consider the entire EU canon?
"EU"?
Expanded universe. Basically anything not a movie.
Ah, I'm familiar with that term! So to answer the question, unless there are apparent contradictions within any expanded universe material which cannot be worked around (such as crossovers between Alien/Predator and Batman/Superman which are properties owned by two different companies and essentially exclusive to Dark Horse Comics), I generally consider expanded universe material canonical on a secondary level to the main canon as represented by the twelve motion pictures (i.e. perhaps not directly canonical but acceptable as canonical).
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 09:37:59 PM
What is FOX going to do, kick in your doors and take away your copies of the AvP movies at gunpoint, demanding that you never enjoy them ever again?
(https://i.imgur.com/4c1tEwx.png)
Fair enough, headcanon thread BTW: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=61437.0
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 02, 2019, 10:00:58 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 09:37:59 PM
What is FOX going to do, kick in your doors and take away your copies of the AvP movies at gunpoint, demanding that you never enjoy them ever again?
https://i.imgur.com/4c1tEwx.png
As someone who has experienced a no-knock Canon Raid at 3AM, I can say with certainty that FOX ain't ever setting foot on my property ever again.
Castle doctrine, motherf**kers.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 10:01:04 PM
Fair enough, headcanon thread BTW: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=61437.0
I'm not saying you're doing this, but people toss around the word "headcanon" as a pejorative and doing so implicitly accomplishes about as much as a genuine "canon debate" does.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 09:54:28 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 09:48:51 PM
I guess the problem is that I wish to engage with a likeminded fanbase where we can all enjoy and discuss this franchise together and explore how everything relates to everything else instead of complaining about everything and calling some things "non-canon" all the time. Noting that I did take note of your linked article and I'm still reviewing it. ^^
Articles, there are three links in my signature, you might have to scroll it to see them. :)
And you can engage in a likeminded fanbase and talk about how things relate to each other, but that doesn't mean you need to strongarm each other into agreeing what's "true" and what's not. The forums are broken down into sub-sections that cater to different lines of thought - if you like the AvP movies, you're in the right subforum. If you like the expanded universe, there's a place for that. If you only want to look at the Alien movies or whatever (or only the original Alien movies for that matter), there are places for that, too.
There are like-minded people all over the place, but like-minded doesn't mean hive-minded. You will never get everyone to agree on everything and that's okay - the different opinions are what makes this place interesting and fun to engage with, as long as they're used productively. Simple like-mindedness results in an echo chamber of people patting each other on the back and jerking each other off to the sound of their own voices. Engaging with people who think differently from you allows you to think critically and expand your own horizons, even if in the end you opt to agree to disagree.
Three articles. Noted. ;-)
The thing is that I'm not restricted to any particular topic, but I'm interested in everything, and I seek to avoid unnecessary division and confusion, and since this fanbase has been so frustratingly obsessed about what is "canon" and what is "non-canon" that it's becoming toxic I also wish to clarify how things really are and that we need not fight over something as ridiculous as what is "canon" and "non-canon", but we could all easily get along and just explore this rich fictional universe together without deciding to disregard some works and cause division and fights. Further noting that I believe there are many fans out there who may want or need to hear what I have to say on these matters, which may bring to their attention information which they have not yet considered, which in turn may result in the fanbase moving forward towards a better and more unified future and atmosphere. I am myself after all the end product of all those fans whom sought to divide the fandom and the canon rather than unify it all.
But, as Xenomrph has said- you can't make someone consider, for instance- ACM or Xenogenesis when A. They don't like it. & B. Fox has disregarded both.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 10:14:18 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 09:54:28 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 09:48:51 PM
I guess the problem is that I wish to engage with a likeminded fanbase where we can all enjoy and discuss this franchise together and explore how everything relates to everything else instead of complaining about everything and calling some things "non-canon" all the time. Noting that I did take note of your linked article and I'm still reviewing it. ^^
Articles, there are three links in my signature, you might have to scroll it to see them. :)
And you can engage in a likeminded fanbase and talk about how things relate to each other, but that doesn't mean you need to strongarm each other into agreeing what's "true" and what's not. The forums are broken down into sub-sections that cater to different lines of thought - if you like the AvP movies, you're in the right subforum. If you like the expanded universe, there's a place for that. If you only want to look at the Alien movies or whatever (or only the original Alien movies for that matter), there are places for that, too.
There are like-minded people all over the place, but like-minded doesn't mean hive-minded. You will never get everyone to agree on everything and that's okay - the different opinions are what makes this place interesting and fun to engage with, as long as they're used productively. Simple like-mindedness results in an echo chamber of people patting each other on the back and jerking each other off to the sound of their own voices. Engaging with people who think differently from you allows you to think critically and expand your own horizons, even if in the end you opt to agree to disagree.
Three articles. Noted. ;-)
The thing is that I'm not restricted to any particular topic, but I'm interested in everything, and I seek to avoid unnecessary division and confusion, and since this fanbase has been so frustratingly obsessed about what is "canon" and what is "non-canon" that it's becoming toxic I also wish to clarify how things really are and that we need not fight over something as ridiculous as what is "canon" and "non-canon", but we could all easily get along and just explore this rich fictional universe together without deciding to disregard some works and cause division and fights. Further noting that I believe there are many fans out there who may want or need to hear what I have to say on these matters, which may bring to their attention information which they have not yet considered, which in turn may result in the fanbase moving forward towards a better and more unified future and atmosphere. I am myself after all the end product of all those fans whom sought to divide the fandom and the canon rather than unify it all.
I'm not sure that that changes anything I said - I find it more pleasant to let people enjoy what they want and ignore what they don't. If you consider all of the movies to be canon then more power to you - arguing your case about why you think that way can be interesting and could get people to see things in a different light or possibly even come over to your line of thinking, but the problem is when people push the envelope and see their line of thinking as absolutely "right" or "wrong". That's when you get nasty canon fights where people entrench themselves and declare "facts" about what is or isn't "true" in a fictional universe, and everyone comes away from the experience embittered and frustrated. It's about learning to recognize where that "agree to disagree" line is, rather than being a zealot who thinks they know The One Truth and are god's gift to the fandom to illuminate the way to true enlightenment or something.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 10:18:18 PM
But, as Xenomrph has said- you can't make someone consider, for instance- ACM or Xenogenesis when A. They don't like it. & B. Fox has disregarded both.
Worth pointing out that point B. doesn't matter. :)
Well, B does matter because it means for instance in the case of Covenant a lot of people are engendered to consider it legitimate regardless of quality and take it into consideration. Even if they don't like the film.
Whereas if Fox didn't consider it canon, any consideration of it would be much easier to dismiss because it's literally not considered by the license holders.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 10:18:18 PM
But, as Xenomrph has said- you can't make someone consider, for instance- ACM or Xenogenesis when A. They don't like it. & B. Fox has disregarded both.
Such works are of course not part of the main cinematic canon so it is not a direct issue, yet noting that merely not liking any particular work does not equate to said work being non-canonical (nor does it justify pushing this unto others), but there is nothing wrong with personally ignoring it, as long as you acknowledge that it's not explicitly rejected as officially canonical by refusing to push your decision to ignore said works unto other people (especially if you can't justify your stance).
And here we reach an impasse because no one was trying to convince you that anything that is Canon, isn't.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 10:20:45 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 10:14:18 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 09:54:28 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 09:48:51 PM
I guess the problem is that I wish to engage with a likeminded fanbase where we can all enjoy and discuss this franchise together and explore how everything relates to everything else instead of complaining about everything and calling some things "non-canon" all the time. Noting that I did take note of your linked article and I'm still reviewing it. ^^
Articles, there are three links in my signature, you might have to scroll it to see them. :)
And you can engage in a likeminded fanbase and talk about how things relate to each other, but that doesn't mean you need to strongarm each other into agreeing what's "true" and what's not. The forums are broken down into sub-sections that cater to different lines of thought - if you like the AvP movies, you're in the right subforum. If you like the expanded universe, there's a place for that. If you only want to look at the Alien movies or whatever (or only the original Alien movies for that matter), there are places for that, too.
There are like-minded people all over the place, but like-minded doesn't mean hive-minded. You will never get everyone to agree on everything and that's okay - the different opinions are what makes this place interesting and fun to engage with, as long as they're used productively. Simple like-mindedness results in an echo chamber of people patting each other on the back and jerking each other off to the sound of their own voices. Engaging with people who think differently from you allows you to think critically and expand your own horizons, even if in the end you opt to agree to disagree.
Three articles. Noted. ;-)
The thing is that I'm not restricted to any particular topic, but I'm interested in everything, and I seek to avoid unnecessary division and confusion, and since this fanbase has been so frustratingly obsessed about what is "canon" and what is "non-canon" that it's becoming toxic I also wish to clarify how things really are and that we need not fight over something as ridiculous as what is "canon" and "non-canon", but we could all easily get along and just explore this rich fictional universe together without deciding to disregard some works and cause division and fights. Further noting that I believe there are many fans out there who may want or need to hear what I have to say on these matters, which may bring to their attention information which they have not yet considered, which in turn may result in the fanbase moving forward towards a better and more unified future and atmosphere. I am myself after all the end product of all those fans whom sought to divide the fandom and the canon rather than unify it all.
I'm not sure that that changes anything I said - I find it more pleasant to let people enjoy what they want and ignore what they don't. If you consider all of the movies to be canon then more power to you - arguing your case about why you think that way can be interesting and could get people to see things in a different light or possibly even come over to your line of thinking, but the problem is when people push the envelope and see their line of thinking as absolutely "right" or "wrong". That's when you get nasty canon fights where people entrench themselves and declare "facts" about what is or isn't "true" in a fictional universe, and everyone comes away from the experience embittered and frustrated. It's about learning to recognize where that "agree to disagree" line is, rather than being a zealot who thinks they know The One Truth and are god's gift to the fandom to illuminate the way to true enlightenment or something.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 10:18:18 PM
But, as Xenomrph has said- you can't make someone consider, for instance- ACM or Xenogenesis when A. They don't like it. & B. Fox has disregarded both.
Worth pointing out that point B. doesn't matter. :)
I see your reasoning. However, I am still confident that I stand on a well-reasoned and well-evidenced foundation (as presented in my OP) which I'm sure many people will agree with, even if reluctantly and silently. Not intending to raise my own opinions over anybody else's, as I'm simply concerned with logical and factual consistency.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 10:47:24 PM
And here we reach an impasse because no one was trying to convince you that anything that is Canon, isn't.
I'm pretty darn sure some people were (yourself included, I must remind you). ^^
No we weren't because AVP's not considered canon by Fox, we have confirmation from someone who works with them. That's the facts, whether you like it or not.
QuoteNot intending to raise my own opinions over anybody else's, as I'm simply concerned with logical and factual consistency.
Your opening statement of "it's clear Fox considers them all canon" is wrong, though. They don't. Everything built on that concept is then unsound.
When it comes to conversations here, just let it be known at the outset what media you want to consider in the discussion. If you want to make a topic that considers all the movies canon to each other -- just say that. You'll get a few jabs of "I hate X movie but ...", but people will generally follow whatever guidelines are set up by the original poster.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 10:32:08 PM
Well, B does matter because it means for instance in the case of Covenant a lot of people are engendered to consider it legitimate regardless of quality and take it into consideration. Even if they don't like the film.
Whereas if Fox didn't consider it canon, any consideration of it would be much easier to dismiss because it's literally not considered by the license holders.
Alternately, you can ignore what FOX says and do what you want, for reasons I've already stated. No one is "forcing" you to consider anything.
FOX's stance on "canon" is so fluid as to be meaningless on an end-user level. There were dozens of comics and videogames and the like that were "officially canon" for decades, and all of a sudden they're "not canon" (which, when you truly stop and think about the ramifications, means literally nothing). Then FOX said "okay here's the line in the sand where 'official canon' starts", but then Alien Covenant comes out and outright contradicts a bunch of those "officially canon" items, and then releases even more that are extremely likely to be ignored/contradicted if more movies come out. So at best you've got things that are contradictory but still officially canon, or at least a constantly shifting goalpost that makes the concept meaningless.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 10:38:59 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 10:18:18 PM
But, as Xenomrph has said- you can't make someone consider, for instance- ACM or Xenogenesis when A. They don't like it. & B. Fox has disregarded both.
Such works are of course not part of the main cinematic canon so it is not a direct issue, yet noting that merely not liking any particular work does not equate to said work being non-canonical (nor does it justify pushing this unto others), but there is nothing wrong with personally ignoring it, as long as you acknowledge that it's not explicitly rejected as officially canonical by refusing to push your decision to ignore said works unto other people (especially if you can't justify your stance).
If you're going by FOX's stance, there aren't canon "tiers". According to them, everything released after 2014's novel 'Alien: Out of the Shadows' is canon, full stop. There has been no indication from FOX that anything outranks anything else, or that one thing can de-canonize another thing.
It's worth pointing out that "canon" and "continuity" are not synonyms, by the way. :)
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 10:49:54 PM
I see your reasoning. However, I am still confident that I stand on a well-reasoned and well-evidenced foundation (as presented in my OP) which I'm sure many people will agree with, even if reluctantly and silently. Not intending to raise my own opinions over anybody else's, as I'm simply concerned with logical and factual consistency.
Like, that's cool and everything, and it's great that you're acknowledging other people's opinions (there are a lot of people who never reach that stage), but like I said the important part is recognizing when to agree to disagree. You might feel you've got an iron-clad argument for why you think all the movies are/should be "canon", but you will inevitably come across people who say "yeah, nope" for reasons as simple as "I didn't like the movie", and you aren't going to change their minds and they're free to enjoy Aliens and Predators in whatever way makes them happiest.
And for the record, I'm one of those weirdos who considers everything canon, top to bottom. I think there's a place for everything, finding creative ways around apparent contradictions are fun, and I've got a fluid enough approach to continuity that I can enjoy most anything without it disrupting the overarching narrative in my head. The AvP universe is a big place with a lot of cool stuff in it.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 02, 2019, 11:02:08 PM
QuoteNot intending to raise my own opinions over anybody else's, as I'm simply concerned with logical and factual consistency.
Your opening statement of "it's clear Fox considers them all canon" is wrong, though. They don't. Everything built on that concept is then unsound.
When it comes to conversations here, just let it be known at the outset what media you want to consider in the discussion. If you want to make a topic that considers all the movies canon to each other -- just say that. You'll get a few jabs of "I hate X movie but ...", but people will generally follow whatever guidelines are set up by the original poster.
Wisdom.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 10:59:06 PM
No we weren't because AVP's not considered canon by Fox, we have confirmation from someone who works with them. That's the facts, whether you like it or not.
And now we're back to the same issue once more. You will still need to properly address the case in my OP (which to my understanding would be the actual facts), and I already clarified in my discussion with SM why his case didn't hold water.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 11:03:56 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 10:32:08 PM
Well, B does matter because it means for instance in the case of Covenant a lot of people are engendered to consider it legitimate regardless of quality and take it into consideration. Even if they don't like the film.
Whereas if Fox didn't consider it canon, any consideration of it would be much easier to dismiss because it's literally not considered by the license holders.
Alternately, you can ignore what FOX says and do what you want, for reasons I've already stated. No one is "forcing" you to consider anything.
FOX's stance on "canon" is so fluid as to be meaningless on an end-user level. There were dozens of comics and videogames and the like that were "officially canon" for decades, and all of a sudden they're "not canon" (which, when you truly stop and think about the ramifications, means literally nothing). Then FOX said "okay here's the line in the sand where 'official canon' starts", but then Alien Covenant comes out and outright contradicts a bunch of those "officially canon" items, and then releases even more that are extremely likely to be ignored/contradicted if more movies come out. So at best you've got things that are contradictory but still officially canon, or at least a constantly shifting goalpost that makes the concept meaningless.
Gotta disagree with this, sometimes the rules get updated- that's all it amounts to.
And I didn't say anyone had to abide by or take into consideration the media that is considered canon by Fox, only that they're engendered to.
Quote(which to my understanding would be the actual facts)
You insist Fox thinks they're all canon to each other.
Someone who works with Fox informs you they do not, in fact, consider them all canon to each other.
For someone talking logic, you're being very irrational in how you deal with this information in order to preserve your beliefs and expectations.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 02, 2019, 11:02:08 PM
QuoteNot intending to raise my own opinions over anybody else's, as I'm simply concerned with logical and factual consistency.
Your opening statement of "it's clear Fox considers them all canon" is wrong, though. They don't. Everything built on that concept is then unsound.
When it comes to conversations here, just let it be known at the outset what media you want to consider in the discussion. If you want to make a topic that considers all the movies canon to each other -- just say that. You'll get a few jabs of "I hate X movie but ...", but people will generally follow whatever guidelines are set up by the original poster.
My opening statement is obviously an overview of the arguments I would go on to make in the rest of my OP.
Yes, and it's fundamentally incorrect. Fox do not consider them all canon to each other.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 02, 2019, 11:10:34 PM
Quote(which to my understanding would be the actual facts)
You insist Fox thinks they're all canon to each other.
Someone who works with Fox informs you they do not, in fact, consider them all canon to each other.
For someone talking logic, you're being very irrational in how you deal with this information in order to preserve your beliefs and expectations.
And as I already stated, my original OP makes a strong enough case that they actually do consider all twelve films canonical, and I already discussed with SM and found that his case didn't actually hold any water. Please, properly address my arguments before you decide to call me "irrational".
Quote from: SiL on Feb 02, 2019, 11:14:01 PM
Yes, and it's fundamentally incorrect. Fox do not consider them all canon to each other.
You're merely making a claim. You need to provide evidence.
SM, is the evidence.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 11:14:09 PM
You're merely making a claim. You need to provide evidence.
The evidence is "people who work with Fox are explicitly telling you that you are incorrect." As much as you love your original post, you cannot argue you are correct in supposing the company holds a position when
people who work for the company are telling you they do not. It's that simple.
Your claim that it doesn't hold water involves you shifting the goal posts and reinterpreting what you're being told in a way that fits your argument.
I doubt it matters much to Fox either way.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 11:17:16 PM
SM, is the evidence.
First, I already refuted him. Second, I made a stronger case in my OP than he did.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 11:19:12 PM
First, I already refuted him.
No, you said "Films don't consider other films when they're being made anyway", which is wrong to begin with. AvP was considered by the writers when they were making Prometheus. Ridley Scott could not have cared less, and they chose to ignore them.
QuoteSecond, I made a stronger case in my OP than he did.
There is no stronger argument than "No, Fox does not hold this position you've claimed it does." Regardless of how long your post, that's all that's necessary to counter your point.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 02, 2019, 11:17:47 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 11:14:09 PM
You're merely making a claim. You need to provide evidence.
The evidence is "people who work with Fox are explicitly telling you that you are incorrect." As much as you love your original post, you cannot argue you are correct in supposing the company holds a position when people who work for the company are telling you they do not. It's that simple.
Your claim that it doesn't hold water involves you shifting the goal posts and reinterpreting what you're being told in a way that fits your argument.
If you're again referring to SM, then I must remind you I still refuted him in our discussion together, and my OP is still better supported than his argument was. Noting that even an individual who works for a certain company is able to make mistakes.
No, you didn't.
The representative of 20th Century Fox saying that Fox doesn't consider AVP Canon, is the goddamn trump card.
He's not a rep, he just works with them.
Same result, though.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 02, 2019, 11:21:07 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 11:19:12 PM
First, I already refuted him.
No, you said "Films don't consider other films when they're being made anyway", which is wrong to begin with. AvP was considered by the writers when they were making Prometheus. Ridley Scott could not have cared less, and they chose to ignore them.
QuoteSecond, I made a stronger case in my OP than he did.
There is no stronger argument than "No, Fox does not hold this position you've claimed it does." Regardless of how long your post, that's all that's necessary to counter your point.
First, I never said any such thing. You may have misunderstood me. Second, now you're merely talking nonsense. I already refuted SM in our discussion together, so could you show me enough respect and properly address the arguments in my OP?
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 02, 2019, 11:18:04 PM
I doubt it matters much to Fox either way.
I might actually agree on that.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 11:25:06 PM
First, I never said any such thing.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:57:27 PM
I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP
AvP was considered for
Prometheus. And ignored.
QuoteI already refuted SM in our discussion together,
You didn't, and insisting as such doesn't change anything.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 11:21:54 PM
No, you didn't.
The representative of 20th Century Fox saying that Fox doesn't consider AVP Canon, is the goddamn trump card.
The problem is that many people can technically represent the company and have a different stance on the matter, and I still refuted his argument earlier, to which he refused to respond.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 02, 2019, 11:27:54 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 11:25:06 PM
First, I never said any such thing.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:57:27 PM
I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP
AvP was considered for Prometheus. And ignored.
QuoteI already refuted SM in our discussion together,
You didn't, and insisting as such doesn't change anything.
First, that is not the same as what you implied that I said. Please read my statement and yours again carefully. I didn't say that they don't consider other films during the production of a new film, I stated that stories intended to be strictly based upon either
Alien or
Predator won't be considering
AVP, unless otherwise noted. Second, I did refute him, and insisting that I didn't won't change anything either.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 11:09:24 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 11:03:56 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 10:32:08 PM
Well, B does matter because it means for instance in the case of Covenant a lot of people are engendered to consider it legitimate regardless of quality and take it into consideration. Even if they don't like the film.
Whereas if Fox didn't consider it canon, any consideration of it would be much easier to dismiss because it's literally not considered by the license holders.
Alternately, you can ignore what FOX says and do what you want, for reasons I've already stated. No one is "forcing" you to consider anything.
FOX's stance on "canon" is so fluid as to be meaningless on an end-user level. There were dozens of comics and videogames and the like that were "officially canon" for decades, and all of a sudden they're "not canon" (which, when you truly stop and think about the ramifications, means literally nothing). Then FOX said "okay here's the line in the sand where 'official canon' starts", but then Alien Covenant comes out and outright contradicts a bunch of those "officially canon" items, and then releases even more that are extremely likely to be ignored/contradicted if more movies come out. So at best you've got things that are contradictory but still officially canon, or at least a constantly shifting goalpost that makes the concept meaningless.
Gotta disagree with this, sometimes the rules get updated- that's all it amounts to.
And I didn't say anyone had to abide by or take into consideration the media that is considered canon by Fox, only that they're engendered to.
My point is why do "the rules" matter? And by your estimation, what's the difference between having to abide by something, and being engendered to?
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 02, 2019, 11:18:04 PM
I doubt it matters much to Fox either way.
Also, this.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 11:29:46 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 11:21:54 PM
No, you didn't.
The representative of 20th Century Fox saying that Fox doesn't consider AVP Canon, is the goddamn trump card.
The problem is that many people can technically represent the company and have a different stance on the matter, and I still refuted his argument earlier, to which he refused to respond.
A few things.
One - you're not wrong on one level. SM is not an employee of FOX, nor do his views express those of 20th Century Fox, etc.
That said, he does consult with them and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on what FOX thinks, even if he's not their official mouthpiece and I suspect FOX would disavow him if he tried to act as such.
THAT said, as I've said before, who gives a shit what FOX thinks, etc.
As for refuting his argument, that's the whole "agree to disagree" thing. You feel you refuted what he said, he obvious disagrees, and he owes you nothing. You feel your OP is wonderful, but no one here is obligated to engage with it. It's cool when people do, but I see dozens of topics on this thread that I opt to skip over because they don't interest me or I fundamentally disagree with them but don't feel it's worth my time to argue against because it wouldn't accomplish anything.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 11:29:46 PM
I stated that stories intended to be strictly based upon either Alien or Predator won't be considering AVP
And this is
still wrong, as I've pointed out repeatedly now, which you insist on ignoring.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 02, 2019, 11:35:53 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 11:29:46 PM
I stated that stories intended to be strictly based upon either Alien or Predator won't be considering AVP
And this is still wrong, as I've pointed out repeatedly now, which you insist on ignoring.
You have not at all explained what is supposed to be wrong with this.
Prometheus was made strictly based on Alien.
They considered the first AvP film while writing the story.
They chose to ignore information in the first AvP and put contradicting information in their film.
They considered it and actively chose to contradict it. That's wrong with what you're saying.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 11:35:08 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 11:09:24 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 11:03:56 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 10:32:08 PM
Well, B does matter because it means for instance in the case of Covenant a lot of people are engendered to consider it legitimate regardless of quality and take it into consideration. Even if they don't like the film.
Whereas if Fox didn't consider it canon, any consideration of it would be much easier to dismiss because it's literally not considered by the license holders.
Alternately, you can ignore what FOX says and do what you want, for reasons I've already stated. No one is "forcing" you to consider anything.
FOX's stance on "canon" is so fluid as to be meaningless on an end-user level. There were dozens of comics and videogames and the like that were "officially canon" for decades, and all of a sudden they're "not canon" (which, when you truly stop and think about the ramifications, means literally nothing). Then FOX said "okay here's the line in the sand where 'official canon' starts", but then Alien Covenant comes out and outright contradicts a bunch of those "officially canon" items, and then releases even more that are extremely likely to be ignored/contradicted if more movies come out. So at best you've got things that are contradictory but still officially canon, or at least a constantly shifting goalpost that makes the concept meaningless.
Gotta disagree with this, sometimes the rules get updated- that's all it amounts to.
And I didn't say anyone had to abide by or take into consideration the media that is considered canon by Fox, only that they're engendered to.
My point is why do "the rules" matter? And by your estimation, what's the difference between having to abide by something, and being engendered to?
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 02, 2019, 11:18:04 PM
I doubt it matters much to Fox either way.
Also, this.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 11:29:46 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 11:21:54 PM
No, you didn't.
The representative of 20th Century Fox saying that Fox doesn't consider AVP Canon, is the goddamn trump card.
The problem is that many people can technically represent the company and have a different stance on the matter, and I still refuted his argument earlier, to which he refused to respond.
A few things.
One - you're not wrong on one level. SM is not an employee of FOX, nor do his views express those of 20th Century Fox, etc.
That said, he does consult with them and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on what FOX thinks, even if he's not their official mouthpiece and I suspect FOX would disavow him if he tried to act as such.
THAT said, as I've said before, who gives a shit what FOX thinks, etc.
As for refuting his argument, that's the whole "agree to disagree" thing. You feel you refuted what he said, he obvious disagrees, and he owes you nothing. You feel your OP is wonderful, but no one here is obligated to engage with it. It's cool when people do, but I see dozens of topics on this thread that I opt to skip over because they don't interest me or I fundamentally disagree with them but don't feel it's worth my time to argue against because it wouldn't accomplish anything.
Agreed, I can see where you're coming from. However it seemed to me as though he merely assumed that something wasn't canon because of how they develop new stories, rather than being directly told by Fox what the deal actually is.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 11:35:08 PM
My point is why do "the rules" matter? And by your estimation, what's the difference between having to abide by something, and being engendered to?
Personally? Selfish reasons, disregarding media I can't stand. ACM's a good example, no postulating on the fate of the Derelict discussions contaminated by ACM's irrelevance for instance. It's probably useful at a continuity level for those developing stories for the universe too.
Being engendered/encouraged isn't the same as being enforced. That's the difference.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 02, 2019, 11:42:30 PM
Prometheus was made strictly based on Alien.
They considered the first AvP film while writing the story.
They chose to ignore information in the first AvP and put contradicting information in their film.
They considered it and actively chose to contradict it. That's wrong with what you're saying.
I have already addressed all of this in my OP. As far as I'm aware, they considered
AVP at one point when Lindelof mention Charles Weyland from
AVP and Scott made it clear he had no intention of continuing from where
AVP left off. Noting that this merely means a shift in focus rather than disregarding
AVP as canon, and they most certainly did not introduce any "contradictions" whatsoever. Noting that SM stated that they didn't consider
AVP when developing new
Alien stories, yet here you and me are talking about just one example where SM is incorrect (other examples being
Fire and Stone,
Life and Death,
The Weyland-Yutani Report, and
The Rage War trilogy). You're making it worse for yourself here.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 11:46:55 PM
Agreed, I can see where you're coming from. However it seemed to me as though he merely assumed that something wasn't canon because of how they develop new stories, rather than being directly told by Fox what the deal actually is.
Oh, no, he actually genuinely consults with FOX on stuff.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 11:48:48 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 11:35:08 PM
My point is why do "the rules" matter? And by your estimation, what's the difference between having to abide by something, and being engendered to?
Personally? Selfish reasons, disregarding media I can't stand. ACM's a good example, no postulating on the fate of the Derelict discussions contaminated by ACM's irrelevance for instance. It's probably useful at a continuity level for those developing stories for the universe too.
Being engendered/encouraged isn't the same as being enforced. That's the difference.
Well I mean, selfish reasons are totally okay - disregard what you don't like. Re: ACM and the Derelict, if people want to talk about the fate of the Derelict and cite ACM (or the Technical Manual), I'm really okay with that.
You're right that it can be useful at a continuity level for story development, but at the same time it's equally useful to disregard things if it results in the story that the storyteller wants to tell - case in point, Ridley Scott ignoring whatever he feels like, up to and including his own movies. :P
I wouldn't even say things are "encouraged", or at least people should temper their encouragement. As for enforcement, there is none (and a lot of people don't realize that).
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 11:53:10 PM
Quote from: SiL on Feb 02, 2019, 11:42:30 PM
Prometheus was made strictly based on Alien.
They considered the first AvP film while writing the story.
They chose to ignore information in the first AvP and put contradicting information in their film.
They considered it and actively chose to contradict it. That's wrong with what you're saying.
I have already addressed all of this in my OP. As far as I'm aware, they considered AVP at one point when Lindelof mention Charles Weyland from AVP and Scott made it clear he had no intention of continuing from where AVP left off. Noting that this merely means a shift in focus rather than disregarding AVP as canon, and they most certainly did not introduce any "contradictions" whatsoever. Noting that SM stated that they didn't consider AVP when developing new Alien stories, yet here you and me are talking about just one example where SM is incorrect (other examples being Fire and Stone, Life and Death, The Weyland-Yutani Report, and The Rage War trilogy). You're making it worse for yourself here.
A lot of it does come down to FOX being cavalier and contradictory with their storytelling. There are multi-part crossovers that include Aliens and Predators, but they can be seen as independent enough that if one wants to ignore, say, F&S/L&D, they can do so without somehow ruining their enjoyment of the narrative. It's not like a viewer's enjoyment or understanding of the Alien movies hinges on appreciating 'Predator', or vice versa.
Like I said, FOX says and does things, feel free to do your own thing and enjoy what you like, namaste.
So hicks is still dead in fox canon?
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 11:53:10 PM
and they most certainly did not introduce any "contradictions" whatsoever.
They introduced an entirely new version of the founder, and foundation, of the Weyland corporation. That's contradictory information.
QuoteNoting that SM stated that they didn't consider AVP when developing new Alien stories, yet here you and me are talking about just one example where SM is incorrect
"New" in this case is after
Prometheus (and even
Covenant, with its continued continuity-changing shenanigans).
Fire And Stone,
Life and Death are crossovers, not stories "just" in the Alien or Predator franchise, and so aren't relevant even to your own point.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 12:06:24 AM
So hicks is still dead in fox canon?
Currently... for now.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 12:08:37 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 11:53:10 PM
and they most certainly did not introduce any "contradictions" whatsoever.
They introduced an entirely new version of the founder, and foundation, of the Weyland corporation. That's contradictory information.
QuoteNoting that SM stated that they didn't consider AVP when developing new Alien stories, yet here you and me are talking about just one example where SM is incorrect
"New" in this case is after Prometheus (and even Covenant, with its continued continuity-changing shenanigans). Fire And Stone, Life and Death are crossovers, not stories "just" in the Alien or Predator franchise, and so aren't relevant even to your own point.
I already addressed the claimed "contradiction" between Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland in my OP and it wasn't at all contradictory (so please read it, but in short, Peter Weyland stepped unto the scene AFTER Charles Weyland).
Fire and Stone and
Life and Death came after
Prometheus and tells a larger story through the
Aliens,
Predator,
AVP, and
Prometheus licenses and they are very much relevant and contradictory to SM's statement.
You are arguing different things
One is whether you can "make it all work or not", this was debated before, you can.
The other is FOX's canon, which is that there are two universes. One has Charles Bishop Weyland, the other has Peter weyland.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 12:28:06 AM
You are arguing different things
One is whether you can "make it all work or not", this was debated before, you can.
The other is FOX's canon, which is that there are two universes. One has Charles Bishop Weyland, the other has Peter weyland.
But there is more support to a single shared universe as opposed to two or more separate universes. Charles and Peter aren't even contradicting each other.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 12:30:44 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 12:28:06 AM
You are arguing different things
One is whether you can "make it all work or not", this was debated before, you can.
The other is FOX's canon, which is that there are two universes. One has Charles Bishop Weyland, the other has Peter weyland.
But there is more support to a single shared universe as opposed to two or more separate universes. Charles and Peter aren't even contradicting each other.
No, its just that Predators exists in both universe. Ahab and Scar are in different universes.
I think you're entirely wrong, TurokSwe, I think there's a direct contradiction despite all the plaster one can add to cover the plothole, the Weyland plothole is still there, under the plaster, and you don't have the technology to fill it since it's two kilometers large and deep enough to go through Earth core.
I think there are multiple continuities which can be deduced from the movies and I also think none of these make any sense. For all the shit I give Cameron, for all the disdain I have for the man humanly and politically, he produced the only really consistent sequel. Alien and AlienS work perfectly together, at least visually and facts-wise. As far as canon is concerned, they can form a single consistent canon.
But add any other movie and things start falling apart.
However, I LOVE the way you're approaching thing. I like your obstinate development of an alternate consistency reuniting the Prometheus and the AVP strains. I appreciate the lengths you're willing to reach, the commitment to the details, and your passion in defending your vision.
Thank you for such a honest and complete personal canon.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 12:32:54 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 12:30:44 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 12:28:06 AM
You are arguing different things
One is whether you can "make it all work or not", this was debated before, you can.
The other is FOX's canon, which is that there are two universes. One has Charles Bishop Weyland, the other has Peter weyland.
But there is more support to a single shared universe as opposed to two or more separate universes. Charles and Peter aren't even contradicting each other.
No, its just that Predators exists in both universe. Ahab and Scar are in different universes.
Proof? Otherwise I call nonsense.
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 03, 2019, 12:34:09 AM
I think you're entirely wrong, TurokSwe, I think there's a direct contradiction despite all the plaster one can add to cover the plothole, the Weyland plothole is still there, under the plaster, and you don't have the technology to fill it since it's two kilometers large and deep enough to go through Earth core.
I think there are multiple continuities which can be deduced from the movies and I also think none of these make any sense. For all the shit I give Cameron, for all the disdain I have for the man humanly and politically, he produced the only really consistent sequel. Alien and AlienS work perfectly together, at least visually and facts-wise. As far as canon is concerned, they can form a single consistent canon.
But add any other movie and things start falling apart.
However, I LOVE the way you're approaching thing. I like your obstinate development of an alternate consistency reuniting the Prometheus and the AVP strains. I appreciate the lengths you're willing to reach, the commitment to the details, and your passion in defending your vision.
Thank you for such a honest and complete personal canon.
With all due respect, that makes absolutely no sense. Would you care to explain the supposed "contradiction"?
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 12:19:27 AM
I already addressed the claimed "contradiction" between Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland in my OP and it wasn't at all contradictory (so please read it, but in short, Peter Weyland stepped unto the scene AFTER Charles Weyland). Fire and Stone and Life and Death came after Prometheus and tells a larger story through the Aliens, Predator, AVP, and Prometheus licenses and they are very much relevant and contradictory to SM's statement.
Peter founded the company, he didn't step in.
Those crossovers aren't contradictory when the statement is that they don't currently consider them all canon to each other.
If you'd just drop the part where you insist you're right about what FOX thinks there'd be no argument. The rest of your monolithic text can stand. It's literally just the part where you say "It's clear they consider them canon to each other" that's wrong.
That you're too arrogant to concede the point speaks volumes. You don't care about logic and facts, you care about being right. And they're not the same thing.
Turok, there's two foundation dates for the Weyland-Yutani and two founders.
Now as I said, you can patch it up, you can even patch it up in multiple ways - people can say, or even officially establish if they are directors, producers or writers of the Alien franchise, that C.B. and Pee are from the same family, and Pee got part of the assets or whatever... They can also say Peter Weyland got inspired by Charles Bishop and took him as a model and changed his family name for Weyland or whatever...
Seriously in fiction you can repair almost EVERY plothole if you've got skill in basic bullshitology. Like, I could make up a thousand reasons for the EEV cryotubes to change between AlienS and Alien 3, too.
But those are still, originally, plotholes. Continuity problems which need to be retroactively justified by some impressive consistency gymnastics.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 12:46:35 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 12:19:27 AM
I already addressed the claimed "contradiction" between Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland in my OP and it wasn't at all contradictory (so please read it, but in short, Peter Weyland stepped unto the scene AFTER Charles Weyland). Fire and Stone and Life and Death came after Prometheus and tells a larger story through the Aliens, Predator, AVP, and Prometheus licenses and they are very much relevant and contradictory to SM's statement.
Peter founded the company, he didn't step in.
Those crossovers aren't contradictory when the statement is that they don't currently consider them all canon to each other.
If you'd just drop the part where you insist you're right about what FOX thinks there'd be no argument. The rest of your monolithic text can stand. It's literally just the part where you say "It's clear they consider them canon to each other" that's wrong.
That you're too arrogant to concede the point speaks volumes. You don't care about logic and facts, you care about being right. And they're not the same thing.
Peter was born in 1990 and founded Weyland Corporation in 2012, whereas Charles founded Weyland Industries sometime in the 1960s-70s and died in 2004. There is no contradiction, they could easily exist as two different iterations of the very same company. The fact that you're resorting to insults and desperation seems to indicate you don't have any strong argument at all. What Fox thinks is clearly reflected in their products, as I explained in my OP.
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 03, 2019, 12:47:05 AM
Turok, there's two foundation dates for the Weyland-Yutani and two founders.
Now as I said, you can patch it up, you can even patch it up in multiple ways - people can say, or even officially establish if they are directors, producers or writers of the Alien franchise, that C.B. and Pee are from the same family, and Pee got part of the assets or whatever... They can also say Peter Weyland got inspired by Charles Bishop and took him as a model and changed his family name for Weyland or whatever...
Seriously in fiction you can repair almost EVERY plothole if you've got skill in basic bullshitology. Like, I could make up a thousand reasons for the EEV cryotubes to change between AlienS and Alien 3, too.
But those are still, originally, plotholes. Continuity problems which need to be retroactively justified by some impressive consistency gymnastics.
Again, I have already addressed this in my OP. The fact that there are two founders and two foundation dates for each company means nothing unless they overlap and demonstrate to be contradictory to each other, but they don't. Peter is born in 1990 and could easily be the son of Charles, and Charles dies in 2004 and leaves Weyland Industries without its original founder, and eight years later Peter founds Weyland Corporation in 2012 (and still keeps the old Weyland Industries active). There is no contradiction, this issue is far too easily resolved.
You do not even realize that Charles Bishop and Peter are basically the same character (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=61493.0), do you?
Frankly SiL is right, you are so focused on being right that you forget to weigh the ideas.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 12:51:07 AM
Peter was born in 1990 and founded Weyland Corporation in 2012, whereas Charles founded Weyland Industries sometime in the 1960s-70s and died in 2004. There is no contradiction, they could easily exist as two different iterations of the very same company.
But with no explanation of why the same company would need to be founded twice, and why the foundation of the latter version makes no mention of the former.
QuoteWhat Fox thinks is clearly reflected in their products, as I explained in my OP.
Their
current products reflect that they don't consider AvP relevant to the Alien franchise.
(Foundation dates besides,
Covenant shows Aliens don't exist until the 2100s.)
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 12:46:35 AM
That you're too arrogant to concede the point speaks volumes. You don't care about logic and facts, you care about being right. And they're not the same thing.
He is starting to really remind me of someone as well.
@Turokswe
Whatever your personal canon is, it is up to you but when it comes to what is officially canon, then Fox has the last word, its up to them. You can't misinterprete their intentions based on older products, their views on canon changes. You can choose to ignore it all like Xenomrph said and just get on with life but it won't change what it officially is. You don't have to like it but there it is.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 01:15:32 AM
(Foundation dates besides, Covenant shows Aliens don't exist until the 2100s.)
Very true.
No, the titan stuff is still canon
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 11:03:56 PM
FOX's stance on "canon" is so fluid as to be meaningless on an end-user level. There were dozens of comics and videogames and the like that were "officially canon" for decades, and all of a sudden they're "not canon" (which, when you truly stop and think about the ramifications, means literally nothing). Then FOX said "okay here's the line in the sand where 'official canon' starts", but then Alien Covenant comes out and outright contradicts a bunch of those "officially canon" items, and then releases even more that are extremely likely to be ignored/contradicted if more movies come out. So at best you've got things that are contradictory but still officially canon, or at least a constantly shifting goalpost that makes the concept meaningless.
I have to begrudgingly believe in this. There is no canon "bible" being strictly followed over at Fox. Fox was this close to allowing test audiences decide if filmed scenes of Ellen Ripley or Amanda Ripley would appear in the end of "The Predator", ultimately tying the Alien canon back into AVP.
Nope. The only reason AVP was retconned out is because Ridley wanted it out. If the next director wants it back in, making lore that much more convoluted, I truly believe Fox won't give a sh*t.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 01:42:48 AM
No, the titan stuff is still canon
And yet Covenant is canon as well, just shows you how much Fox cares about having a credible continuity on their so called canon entries. :P
If those are still
currently considered canon by Fox then I guess they haven't yet realized the contradiction between Covenant and the Titan Trilogy. Those are the people that almost gave us a time traveling Ripley/Newt coming out of the pod on The Predator after all.
Both covenant and titans are canon, it just proves there was another creator before David.
Not when you got both both Covenant and Ridley saying David created the Alien. The shadow trilogy was canon, it was meant to be part of the new EU after Fox rebooted it but Covenant has made a mess of those plans.
Its not up to ripley, its up to fox. If it was up to ridley fire and stone would not have been made
Ridley was given free reign on the IP when it came to covenant, at least that is what I heard. Ridley says a lot of things but right now he is saying David created the Alien and that does matter, it counts as a source. It might change in the future. Fox probably shares the same view by allowing Covenant to be made otherwise they would have intervened. Also rember that new info usually overrides old info. Covenant = New. Shadows/FSLD = Old.
This was debated before, ancient xenomorphs showing up contradicts no part in covenant
The debate pretty much showed that it only doesn't contradict it if you ignore the film and substitute your own interpretation of events.
It may contradict ridley's intent, but it does not contradict the movie
Quote from: The Cruentus on Feb 03, 2019, 01:19:12 AM
@Turokswe
Whatever your personal canon is, it is up to you but when it comes to what is officially canon, then Fox has the last word, its up to them. You can't misinterprete their intentions based on older products, their views on canon changes. You can choose to ignore it all like Xenomrph said and just get on with life but it won't change what it officially is. You don't have to like it but there it is.
The "problem" with this line of thinking is the apparent begrudging resignation that the "official canon" somehow matters, or somehow matters more than what you choose to believe. That's not what I'm saying at all. :)
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 01:15:32 AM
Their current products reflect that they don't consider AvP relevant to the Alien franchise.
Which current products? Just because there aren't AvP comics or novels on the shelves at this very moment doesn't mean they don't support AvP. We still get merchandise constantly (including merchandise about the AvP movies specifically), and we just got an expansion to a boardgame which features Predators fighting colonial marines from 'Aliens'.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 01:15:32 AM
(Foundation dates besides, Covenant shows Aliens don't exist until the 2100s.)
'Alien' shows that they predate this, though, and the (canon) novelization of 'Alien Covenant' supports this. ;D
[insert "And here.... we... go" gif here]
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 03, 2019, 01:52:39 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 01:42:48 AM
No, the titan stuff is still canon
And yet Covenant is canon as well, just shows you how much Fox cares about having a credible continuity on their so called canon entries. :P
If those are still currently considered canon by Fox then I guess they haven't yet realized the contradiction between Covenant and the Titan Trilogy.
Or, far more likely, they don't care. :P
Quote from: The Cruentus on Feb 03, 2019, 02:07:27 AM
Ridley was given free reign on the IP when it came to covenant, at least that is what I heard. Ridley says a lot of things but right now he is saying David created the Alien and that does matter, it counts as a source.
A "source" is some sort of licensed, officially produced form of media (a movie, a game, a comic, whatever). Things Ridley Scott says in interviews are none of these. :)
Quote from: The Cruentus on Feb 03, 2019, 02:07:27 AMAlso rember that new info usually overrides old info. Covenant = New. Shadows/FSLD = Old.
This is a common misconception, and we have no indication that it's true. As I mentioned several pages ago, if you're going by FOX's "official canon", there is no ranking system and things haven't been excised by newer materials. 'Out of the Shadows' and Covenant are both "officially canon", full stop, all contradictions included. F&S/L&D/Rage War are still "officially canon", full stop, despite mixing Predators into the Alien universe and despite Ridley Scott's opinions on AvP as an idea.
And that's why, as Voodoo Magic recognized, the idea of an "official canon" is a nonsense idea at the audience level, and no one should be expected to follow it.
Again, AvP not being canon to Alien=/= AvP doesn't exist or something.
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 02, 2019, 02:03:25 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:57:27 PM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 02, 2019, 01:46:58 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 02, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
No it's a canon issue too. When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.
I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.
If AVP stuff is not considered for the development of new stories in the Alien universe it is not canon to it.
If it would be, they would consider it to avoid contradictions.
That is of course flawed logic. AVP wasn't considered for the development of Predators, yet still takes place within the same universe. Neither Alien nor Predator stories are required to consider past works, especially if they don't actually contradict said past works (though one could argue that the technology present in Prometheus/Covenant was contradictory to the Alien films).
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 02, 2019, 01:47:50 PM
There is the charles bishop weyland universe and the peter weyland universe. Predators just exist in both.
The evidence seem to support a single shared universe, as I already argued for in my initial comment on this thread.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 01:49:04 PM
Quote from: SM on Oct 19, 2018, 06:04:24 AM
Quote
*The canon 'bible' Fox is using for the Alien series does not include the AVP films according to those who made Alien Covenant.
I can verify this.
+
Quote from: SM on Apr 16, 2018, 06:08:20 AM
AvP is cinematically tainted.
Which (if even true) of course means nothing.
Your case seems to boil down to 'because I say so, more is pointing to my opinion' for the most part.
I don't think you will sway anyone's mind with that and think you are frankly put, wasting your time.
I've just gotten off a plane and mercifully missed a great deal of this conversation, but the above seems a most accurate summation.
So apparently SM works with the licensing part of FOX, right? SM argues that that the Alien, Predator and AVP titles are seperate licenses and he wouldn't be wrong. But this certainly doesn't mean seperate license = seperate canon. If it were to mean that then Prometheus would also be a seperate canon, no? It's like how Ironman and Captain America are seperate movie licenses but both feature in crossover films.
I think FOX is quite ambigouos about canon so that if people just want to enjoy Alien on it's own they can do that. Or Predator or AVP etc. on it's own they can do that. But when considering AVP it includes all Alien and Predator films.
I believe to truly render AVP 'non-canon' we'd need either an official statement from FOX or a third prequel film that cements the idea of David as the Xenomorph creator. But even then AVP could be enjoyed as it's own canon (not including the prequel films).
I'm with ya Turok and I give you props for clearly expressing your arguements in a level-headed manner, even when you're copping lot of sh!tty response such as "AVP = non-canon because SM said".
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 04:37:33 AM
But this certainly doesn't mean seperate license = seperate canon.
Nope. Never has. Never will.
From Hicks, this is what FOX currently considers canon:
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 29, 2019, 11:27:04 AM
This can change like ACM's status did (Praise the lord). As it stands, this is where we're at.
Prometheus, Covenant, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Resurrection. All books after Out of the Shadows (though only some of Bug Hunt. Hell if I know which). All comics after Fire and Stone. All games after Isolation.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 03, 2019, 04:43:10 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 04:37:33 AM
But this certainly doesn't mean seperate license = seperate canon.
Nope. Never has. Never will.
And has never been the argument.
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 04:37:33 AM
I think FOX is quite ambigouos about canon so that if people just want to enjoy Alien on it's own they can do that. Or Predator or AVP etc. on it's own they can do that. But when considering AVP it includes all Alien and Predator films.
Pretty much this.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 04:57:03 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 03, 2019, 04:43:10 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 04:37:33 AM
But this certainly doesn't mean seperate license = seperate canon.
Nope. Never has. Never will.
And has never been the argument.
Then what is the argument?
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 05:04:46 AM
Then what is the argument?
That they don't take the AvP movies into consideration when plotting new stuff. They're not relevant to anything but themselves and a few pieces of older media -- also currently ignored in the grander scheme -- that directly tied to them.
To whit, no, FOX doesn't consider that
all of the movies are canon to each other. The Alien franchise, at the least, is doing its own thing regardless of what the others are doing.
How that's a controversial statement continues to baffle me.
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 05:04:46 AM
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 04:57:03 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 03, 2019, 04:43:10 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 04:37:33 AM
But this certainly doesn't mean seperate license = seperate canon.
Nope. Never has. Never will.
And has never been the argument.
Then what is the argument?
That Charles Bishop weyland and Peter Weyland doesn't exist in the same universe.
Or that the Aliens currently don't exist until the 22nd century.
FOX has always taken the stance that Alien movies are free to ignore anything that's not an Alien movie. Comics and novels and off-shoots follow the films, not the other way around. Alien3 should be proof enough, but Prometheus and Covenant neatly reinforce it.
Free to ignore when there is a contradiction, as of right now, there is none.
The only thing being contradicted is Ripley's intent, but we all know Aliens already contradicts his intentions.
There are plenty of contradictions. Fans can creatively get around them by making suppositions or injecting their own workarounds, but these are outside of the actual stories.
Prometheus ignored AvP's Weyland, Covenant ignores everything explicitly saying Aliens are an older species.
And for God's sake dude; Ridley. Ripley is the film character. Ridley is the filmmaker.
QuoteI'm with ya Turok and I give you props for clearly expressing your arguements in a level-headed manner, even when you're copping lot of sh!tty response such as "AVP = non-canon because SM said".
It's not me saying it though.
People want to know what's considered canon and what's not. I'm in position to tell them. Then it's the predictable f**kwittery of 'I don't like that' (you're not obliged to), 'there are no contradictions' (lying or blissful ignorance - take your pick), 'the Weyland's are related' (they're demonstrably not), and 'David didn't create the Aliens because AvP' (in spite of Covenant).
Rinse. Repeat.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 05:27:53 AM
Prometheus ignored AvP's Weyland, Covenant ignores everything explicitly saying Aliens are an older species.
for the former, We have evidence for FOX rebooting the universe with the WY report. No such evidence exists for the latter.
Except the scene in the film where they explain that an android created the Alien.
A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Planet 4 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 05:47:44 AM
Except the scene in the film where they explain that an android created the Alien.
We been through this. Even if Ancient xenomrophs exists per the titan books, David can still create another xenomorph later.
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 05:56:25 AM
A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.
It's not ambiguous at all. He walks you past all of his different stages, explains the process, and then reveals his final creation. He explains how he made a new species. He explains how obsessed he is with creation. There is nothing the film could've done to make it more explicit short of him crash landing the Derelict himself.
Calling the scene ambiguous is
Quote from: SM on Feb 03, 2019, 05:30:46 AM
(lying or blissful ignorance - take your pick)
EDIT
More to the point -- this is all irrelevant anyway. The point being made, time and time again, is that the company doesn't consider the movies all canon to each other. That's it. People can argue whether Aliens are two years old or twenty thousand years old, but the only important factor is "No, the company does not agree that they're all relevant to each other."
Whether that
matters is, equally, beyond the point.
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 05:56:25 AM
A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.
A film is not "fan theory".
Quote from: SM on Feb 03, 2019, 06:57:49 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 05:56:25 AM
A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.
A film is not "fan theory".
What? ??? I don't know how you got film = fan theory from that.
What I meant was David created the Xenomorphs on Planet 4, yes. But to say that he had anything to do with the derelict on LV-426 or that the film makes it impossible for Xenomorphs to come about under different circumstances somewhere else in the universe is also fan-theory.
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 04:37:33 AM.
I'm with ya Turok and I give you props for clearly expressing your arguements in a level-headed manner, even when you're copping lot of sh!tty response such as "AVP = non-canon because SM said".
Level headed? Are you f**king joking?
Quote from: SM on Feb 03, 2019, 05:30:46 AM
QuoteI'm with ya Turok and I give you props for clearly expressing your arguements in a level-headed manner, even when you're copping lot of sh!tty response such as "AVP = non-canon because SM said".
It's not me saying it though.
People want to know what's considered canon and what's not. I'm in position to tell them. Then it's the predictable f**kwittery of 'I don't like that' (you're not obliged to), 'there are no contradictions' (lying or blissful ignorance - take your pick), 'the Weyland's are related' (they're demonstrably not), and 'David didn't create the Aliens because AvP' (in spite of Covenant).
Rinse. Repeat.
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 07:15:16 AM
Quote from: SM on Feb 03, 2019, 06:57:49 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 05:56:25 AM
A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.
A film is not "fan theory".
What? ??? I don't know how you got film = fan theory from that.
What I meant was David created the Xenomorphs on Origae-6, yes. But to say that he had anything to do with the derelict on LV-426 or that the film makes it impossible for Xenomorphs to come about under different circumstances somewhere else in the universe is also fan-theory.
Because you insist only claiming what is shown in Covenant only pertains to the Aliens in that film and no others. The latter part of that statement is fan theory.
And those Aliens aren't from Origae-6. They never got to Origae-6.
Quote from: SM on Feb 03, 2019, 07:42:29 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 07:15:16 AM
Quote from: SM on Feb 03, 2019, 06:57:49 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 05:56:25 AM
A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.
A film is not "fan theory".
What? ??? I don't know how you got film = fan theory from that.
What I meant was David created the Xenomorphs on Origae-6, yes. But to say that he had anything to do with the derelict on LV-426 or that the film makes it impossible for Xenomorphs to come about under different circumstances somewhere else in the universe is also fan-theory.
Because you insist only claiming what is shown in Covenant only pertains to the Aliens in that film and no others. The latter part of that statement is fan theory.
The converse is also true, since Covenant doesn't address what we're shown in 'Alien'.
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 03, 2019, 01:03:01 AM
You do not even realize that Charles Bishop and Peter are basically the same character (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=61493.0), do you?
Frankly SiL is right, you are so focused on being right that you forget to weigh the ideas.
It like you don't even hear me. There is NOTHING that would Charles and Peter "the same character". Would you please elaborate. Weighing the evidence is exactly what I did from the very start. Please read my OP.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 01:15:32 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 12:51:07 AM
Peter was born in 1990 and founded Weyland Corporation in 2012, whereas Charles founded Weyland Industries sometime in the 1960s-70s and died in 2004. There is no contradiction, they could easily exist as two different iterations of the very same company.
But with no explanation of why the same company would need to be founded twice, and why the foundation of the latter version makes no mention of the former.
QuoteWhat Fox thinks is clearly reflected in their products, as I explained in my OP.
Their current products reflect that they don't consider AvP relevant to the Alien franchise.
(Foundation dates besides, Covenant shows Aliens don't exist until the 2100s.)
It's quite reasonable to suggest that Charles death might have had a detrimental effect on the company, and so once Peter became of age he rejuvenated the company as a new iteration. Also, on the very contrary, their current products reflect quite clearly that they do consider
AVP relevant, and
Covenant didn't at all show that "Aliens didn't exist until the 2100's", all of which has already been addressed in my OP (which people refuse to read for some reason).
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 09:03:18 AM
Please read my OP.
People did. It is just not the indisputable truth you claim it is. Regardless how often you claim it.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Feb 03, 2019, 01:19:12 AM
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 12:46:35 AM
That you're too arrogant to concede the point speaks volumes. You don't care about logic and facts, you care about being right. And they're not the same thing.
He is starting to really remind me of someone as well.
@Turokswe
Whatever your personal canon is, it is up to you but when it comes to what is officially canon, then Fox has the last word, its up to them. You can't misinterprete their intentions based on older products, their views on canon changes. You can choose to ignore it all like Xenomrph said and just get on with life but it won't change what it officially is. You don't have to like it but there it is.
Fox indeed has the last word, and my OP makes it abundantly clear that they indeed have not rejected anything from the canon, much less
AVP (and I'm not ignoring anything that anybody has said in this entire thread, unlike some other people, but I'm addressing their responses according to what they give me). Likewise, you may not like it my friend, but, uh, well there it is.
Everyone's read your OP at this point, just because no-one's quoting it doesn't mean no-one's replying to it. Despite what you seem to believe, your OP isn't infailable. In fact it's premise: that 20th Century Fox considers all twelve films canon is demonstrably incorrect. Accept that and maybe you'll find someone more willing to engage with your theorising than thus far.
Until then, peace- I'm out and I'd advise everyone else to do the same as the last six pages are nearly identical in their content.
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 03, 2019, 01:22:56 AM
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 01:15:32 AM
(Foundation dates besides, Covenant shows Aliens don't exist until the 2100s.)
Very true.
Except that's not true (as explained in my OP) and you will need to provide evidence for that claim.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 03, 2019, 01:52:14 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 02, 2019, 11:03:56 PM
FOX's stance on "canon" is so fluid as to be meaningless on an end-user level. There were dozens of comics and videogames and the like that were "officially canon" for decades, and all of a sudden they're "not canon" (which, when you truly stop and think about the ramifications, means literally nothing). Then FOX said "okay here's the line in the sand where 'official canon' starts", but then Alien Covenant comes out and outright contradicts a bunch of those "officially canon" items, and then releases even more that are extremely likely to be ignored/contradicted if more movies come out. So at best you've got things that are contradictory but still officially canon, or at least a constantly shifting goalpost that makes the concept meaningless.
I have to begrudgingly believe in this. There is no canon "bible" being strictly followed over at Fox. Fox was this close to allowing test audiences decide if filmed scenes of Ellen Ripley or Amanda Ripley would appear in the end of "The Predator", ultimately tying the Alien canon back into AVP.
Nope. The only reason AVP was retconned out is because Ridley wanted it out. If the next director wants it back in, making lore that much more convoluted, I truly believe Fox won't give a sh*t.
Noting that
AVP was never "retconned" to begin with, I simply has to agree with all that was said here.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Feb 03, 2019, 01:59:17 AM
Not when you got both both Covenant and Ridley saying David created the Alien. The shadow trilogy was canon, it was meant to be part of the new EU after Fox rebooted it but Covenant has made a mess of those plans.
Ridley is the only one even suggesting the concept of David as creator, but it isn't supported anywhere else, much less in the movie itself (as already explained).
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 02:01:59 AM
Its not up to ripley, its up to fox. If it was up to ridley fire and stone would not have been made
Word!
Quote from: The Cruentus on Feb 03, 2019, 02:07:27 AM
Ridley was given free reign on the IP when it came to covenant, at least that is what I heard. Ridley says a lot of things but right now he is saying David created the Alien and that does matter, it counts as a source. It might change in the future. Fox probably shares the same view by allowing Covenant to be made otherwise they would have intervened. Also rember that new info usually overrides old info. Covenant = New. Shadows/FSLD = Old.
It doesn't really count at all in the grand scheme of things, especially not when he's being contradicted by his own products. Trust me, Fox could care less if Ridley wants David to be the creator, they will do as they please and place the Alien anywhere on the timeline. Noting that they probably won't let him make any more movies.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 02:13:07 AM
This was debated before, ancient xenomorphs showing up contradicts no part in covenant
Exactly.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 02:14:38 AM
The debate pretty much showed that it only doesn't contradict it if you ignore the film and substitute your own interpretation of events.
But the film doesn't even establish David as the creator, it leaves the issue up to interpretation, and other works contradict the idea of David as creator (eg. the official novel of
Covenant and the home video release of
Prometheus). You don't have to ignore anything, you simply need to put it all in context, so it turns out David is merely producing his very own variants of Xenomorphs, not creating the species as a whole.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 02:18:05 AM
It may contradict ridley's intent, but it does not contradict the movie
Thank you!
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 03, 2019, 02:53:27 AM
Quote from: The Cruentus on Feb 03, 2019, 01:19:12 AM
@Turokswe
Whatever your personal canon is, it is up to you but when it comes to what is officially canon, then Fox has the last word, its up to them. You can't misinterprete their intentions based on older products, their views on canon changes. You can choose to ignore it all like Xenomrph said and just get on with life but it won't change what it officially is. You don't have to like it but there it is.
The "problem" with this line of thinking is the apparent begrudging resignation that the "official canon" somehow matters, or somehow matters more than what you choose to believe. That's not what I'm saying at all. :)
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 01:15:32 AM
Their current products reflect that they don't consider AvP relevant to the Alien franchise.
Which current products? Just because there aren't AvP comics or novels on the shelves at this very moment doesn't mean they don't support AvP. We still get merchandise constantly (including merchandise about the AvP movies specifically), and we just got an expansion to a boardgame which features Predators fighting colonial marines from 'Aliens'.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 01:15:32 AM
(Foundation dates besides, Covenant shows Aliens don't exist until the 2100s.)
'Alien' shows that they predate this, though, and the (canon) novelization of 'Alien Covenant' supports this. ;D
[insert "And here.... we... go" gif here]
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 03, 2019, 01:52:39 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 01:42:48 AM
No, the titan stuff is still canon
And yet Covenant is canon as well, just shows you how much Fox cares about having a credible continuity on their so called canon entries. :P
If those are still currently considered canon by Fox then I guess they haven't yet realized the contradiction between Covenant and the Titan Trilogy.
Or, far more likely, they don't care. :P
Quote from: The Cruentus on Feb 03, 2019, 02:07:27 AM
Ridley was given free reign on the IP when it came to covenant, at least that is what I heard. Ridley says a lot of things but right now he is saying David created the Alien and that does matter, it counts as a source.
A "source" is some sort of licensed, officially produced form of media (a movie, a game, a comic, whatever). Things Ridley Scott says in interviews are none of these. :)
Quote from: The Cruentus on Feb 03, 2019, 02:07:27 AMAlso rember that new info usually overrides old info. Covenant = New. Shadows/FSLD = Old.
This is a common misconception, and we have no indication that it's true. As I mentioned several pages ago, if you're going by FOX's "official canon", there is no ranking system and things haven't been excised by newer materials. 'Out of the Shadows' and Covenant are both "officially canon", full stop, all contradictions included. F&S/L&D/Rage War are still "officially canon", full stop, despite mixing Predators into the Alien universe and despite Ridley Scott's opinions on AvP as an idea.
And that's why, as Voodoo Magic recognized, the idea of an "official canon" is a nonsense idea at the audience level, and no one should be expected to follow it.
This! Agreed! ^^
Honestly, I feel the only issue is that just because you can make charles bishop weyland and peter weyland work, it does not mean they are in the same universe.
Quote from: SM on Feb 03, 2019, 03:20:29 AM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 02, 2019, 02:03:25 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:57:27 PM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 02, 2019, 01:46:58 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 02, 2019, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: SM on Feb 02, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
No it's a canon issue too. When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP.
I'm not sure what that's even supposed to mean or how that relates to the official canon. Obviously stories strictly centered on the Alien or Predator licenses won't be considering AVP (even though they may reference or be connected to each other, as in the case of Fire and Stone, Life and Death, and The Rage War trilogy for instance), as I'd figure that's the very purpose of the AVP license itself to fill out that role.
If AVP stuff is not considered for the development of new stories in the Alien universe it is not canon to it.
If it would be, they would consider it to avoid contradictions.
That is of course flawed logic. AVP wasn't considered for the development of Predators, yet still takes place within the same universe. Neither Alien nor Predator stories are required to consider past works, especially if they don't actually contradict said past works (though one could argue that the technology present in Prometheus/Covenant was contradictory to the Alien films).
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 02, 2019, 01:47:50 PM
There is the charles bishop weyland universe and the peter weyland universe. Predators just exist in both.
The evidence seem to support a single shared universe, as I already argued for in my initial comment on this thread.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 02, 2019, 01:49:04 PM
Quote from: SM on Oct 19, 2018, 06:04:24 AM
Quote
*The canon 'bible' Fox is using for the Alien series does not include the AVP films according to those who made Alien Covenant.
I can verify this.
+
Quote from: SM on Apr 16, 2018, 06:08:20 AM
AvP is cinematically tainted.
Which (if even true) of course means nothing.
Your case seems to boil down to 'because I say so, more is pointing to my opinion' for the most part.
I don't think you will sway anyone's mind with that and think you are frankly put, wasting your time.
I've just gotten off a plane and mercifully missed a great deal of this conversation, but the above seems a most accurate summation.
But it's not accurate, it seems to be a deliberate misrepresentation of my stance, especially taking into account my OP.
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 04:37:33 AM
So apparently SM works with the licensing part of FOX, right? SM argues that that the Alien, Predator and AVP titles are seperate licenses and he wouldn't be wrong. But this certainly doesn't mean seperate license = seperate canon. If it were to mean that then Prometheus would also be a seperate canon, no? It's like how Ironman and Captain America are seperate movie licenses but both feature in crossover films.
I think FOX is quite ambigouos about canon so that if people just want to enjoy Alien on it's own they can do that. Or Predator or AVP etc. on it's own they can do that. But when considering AVP it includes all Alien and Predator films.
I believe to truly render AVP 'non-canon' we'd need either an official statement from FOX or a third prequel film that cements the idea of David as the Xenomorph creator. But even then AVP could be enjoyed as it's own canon (not including the prequel films).
I'm with ya Turok and I give you props for clearly expressing your arguements in a level-headed manner, even when you're copping lot of sh!tty response such as "AVP = non-canon because SM said".
Thank you! Much obliged! ^^
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 05:09:03 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 05:04:46 AM
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 04:57:03 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 03, 2019, 04:43:10 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 04:37:33 AM
But this certainly doesn't mean seperate license = seperate canon.
Nope. Never has. Never will.
And has never been the argument.
Then what is the argument?
That Charles Bishop weyland and Peter Weyland doesn't exist in the same universe.
But they most likely do exist in the same universe (as demonstrated in my OP).
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 05:25:39 AM
Free to ignore when there is a contradiction, as of right now, there is none.
The only thing being contradicted is Ripley's intent, but we all know Aliens already contradicts his intentions.
Agreed.
No, Charles bishop weyland and Peter Weyland exists in different universes, per the wy report.
Quote from: SM on Feb 03, 2019, 05:30:46 AM
QuoteI'm with ya Turok and I give you props for clearly expressing your arguements in a level-headed manner, even when you're copping lot of sh!tty response such as "AVP = non-canon because SM said".
It's not me saying it though.
People want to know what's considered canon and what's not. I'm in position to tell them. Then it's the predictable f**kwittery of 'I don't like that' (you're not obliged to), 'there are no contradictions' (lying or blissful ignorance - take your pick), 'the Weyland's are related' (they're demonstrably not), and 'David didn't create the Aliens because AvP' (in spite of Covenant).
Rinse. Repeat.
It seems to be you saying it, and I mean, you're not actually an employee at Fox, are you? So how can you be in a position to tell it like it is, especially when you don't give any indication on Fox's stance on "canon" but simply on licenses? Perhaps it is that you feel that you are in a good-enough authoritative position that you feel you can more confidently express your personal preferences. Of course I could be wrong. Anyway, if there are any genuine contradictions then feel free to mention them (though I assume it's the same ones already addressed in my OP), and it can not be demonstrated that Charles and Peter are "not" related, but the evidence does seem to favor an actual relationship and this could easily be assumed without any problems. I have also already addressed the claim that "David created the Xenomorphs" in my OP and hopefully made it abundantly clear that, no, he didn't, and my arguments are coming primarily from
Prometheus and
Covenant themselves (which blatantly contradicts the entire concept of David as creator), with
AVP being considered on a secondary level. Don't misrepresent my arguments please.
Your argument that Fox considers then all canon to each other is wrong because they don't. They say they don't. That's all that's needed to prove that part wrong.
The rest is up to you.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 05:41:23 AM
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 05:27:53 AM
Prometheus ignored AvP's Weyland, Covenant ignores everything explicitly saying Aliens are an older species.
for the former, We have evidence for FOX rebooting the universe with the WY report. No such evidence exists for the latter.
If we are even considering
The Weyland-Yutani Report as canonical, then we also have to consider
AVP canonical to
Alien since it acknowledges
Fire and Stone and
Life and Death.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 05:47:44 AM
Except the scene in the film where they explain that an android created the Alien.
Except there was no such scene.
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 05:56:25 AM
A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.
Exactly.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 05:58:49 AM
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 05:47:44 AM
Except the scene in the film where they explain that an android created the Alien.
We been through this. Even if Ancient xenomrophs exists per the titan books, David can still create another xenomorph later.
Again; Exactly.
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 07:15:16 AM
Quote from: SM on Feb 03, 2019, 06:57:49 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 05:56:25 AM
A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.
A film is not "fan theory".
What? ??? I don't know how you got film = fan theory from that.
What I meant was David created the Xenomorphs on Origae-6, yes. But to say that he had anything to do with the derelict on LV-426 or that the film makes it impossible for Xenomorphs to come about under different circumstances somewhere else in the universe is also fan-theory.
^
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 03, 2019, 07:23:02 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 04:37:33 AM.
I'm with ya Turok and I give you props for clearly expressing your arguements in a level-headed manner, even when you're copping lot of sh!tty response such as "AVP = non-canon because SM said".
Level headed? Are you f**king joking?
Quote from: SM on Feb 03, 2019, 05:30:46 AM
QuoteI'm with ya Turok and I give you props for clearly expressing your arguements in a level-headed manner, even when you're copping lot of sh!tty response such as "AVP = non-canon because SM said".
It's not me saying it though.
People want to know what's considered canon and what's not. I'm in position to tell them. Then it's the predictable f**kwittery of 'I don't like that' (you're not obliged to), 'there are no contradictions' (lying or blissful ignorance - take your pick), 'the Weyland's are related' (they're demonstrably not), and 'David didn't create the Aliens because AvP' (in spite of Covenant).
Rinse. Repeat.
It's easy to present your opponent as "not level-headed" when you continually misrepresent their arguments.
No, fire and stone and avp 2004 take place in different universes
Quote from: SM on Feb 03, 2019, 07:42:29 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 07:15:16 AM
Quote from: SM on Feb 03, 2019, 06:57:49 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 05:56:25 AM
A very ambiguous scene that explains David created the Xenomorphs of Origae-6 nothing more. Anything else could be labelled as fan-theory.
A film is not "fan theory".
What? ??? I don't know how you got film = fan theory from that.
What I meant was David created the Xenomorphs on Origae-6, yes. But to say that he had anything to do with the derelict on LV-426 or that the film makes it impossible for Xenomorphs to come about under different circumstances somewhere else in the universe is also fan-theory.
Because you insist only claiming what is shown in Covenant only pertains to the Aliens in that film and no others. The latter part of that statement is fan theory.
And those Aliens aren't from Origae-6. They never got to Origae-6.
After all, at best, the movie suggests David produced the Xenomorphs present on Planet 4 (not Origae-6 of course, I believe he simply switched them around, no harm done), not being the creator of all Xenomorphs that's ever existed down through all the billions of years that the black goo pathogen has been in existence, that's quite the leap.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 09:12:46 AM
But the film doesn't even establish David as the creator, it leaves the issue up to interpretation, and other works contradict the idea of David as creator (eg. the official novel of Covenant and the home video release of Prometheus). You don't have to ignore anything, you simply need to put it all in context, so it turns out David is merely producing his very own variants of Xenomorphs, not creating the species as a whole.
Except it does. And no amount of handwaving about it "being open to interpretation" makes it so.
Who cares what the novel says? The novelizations of
Aliens and
Alien contradicted a lot of stuff in the movies, nobody thinks that is actually canon.
A marketing short from a previous movie contradicting the later movie also proofs nothing as it is just that, a special feature from a
previous movie. And if that is not enough for you, Ridley, same director of
Covenant and Prometheus stated that David did it. Why do you give a little extra from the movie more weight than the word of the director of the same movie?
You can claim you proofed anything all you want, when you not even proved that the scene
in the actual movie, the one with David going through his experiments, is actually up for interpretation, all the "evidence" outside of the movie does not matter, cause the actual movie trumps novelizations, previous crossover entries and home release extras of previous entries.
And no, how long the black goo existed is also no evidence for anything.
And of course we have old Ridles statement that you also conveniently handwave away because it does not fit your argument. All that while one of your arguments is what the directors and crew of the AVPs had to say on the matter. Is it because one fits your narrative and one does not?
Also please stop trying to guesswork Fox's intention on the whole matter to give your arguments some kind of "official" weight, when you actually get told how they see it again and again and again by one who actually works with them.
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 03, 2019, 09:10:19 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 09:03:18 AM
Please read my OP.
People did. It is just not the indisputable truth you claim it is. Regardless how often you claim it.
At best (if they've actually read it at all), they must have skimmed through it all out frustration at its contents. My OP is not "an indisputable truth" and I have never claimed it to be such (please stop misrepresenting me), but it is probably the strongest case you can make on this issue, and it favors a shared canon. You are free to make a more well-reasoned case against it if you actually have one, but if you can't suggest one, then don't act like my case is worthless and meaningless, because it arguably isn't, and don't misrepresent my arguments not insult me. At least you could show me that much respect.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 03, 2019, 09:12:18 AM
Everyone's read your OP at this point, just because no-one's quoting it doesn't mean no-one's replying to it. Despite what you seem to believe, your OP isn't infailable. In fact it's premise: that 20th Century Fox considers all twelve films canon is demonstrably incorrect. Accept that and maybe you'll find someone more willing to engage with your theorising than thus far.
Until then, peace- I'm out and I'd advise everyone else to do the same as the last six pages are nearly identical in their content.
I doubt they have, and at best they may have skimmed through it. Once again, I NEVER implied that my OP was supposedly "infallible" so please stop misrepresenting me. I merely suggested that it's the strongest case that can be made, and since you have not been able to properly respond to its arguments, I take that as confirmation that you reluctantly agree with its contents but refuse to endorse it because it's not what you want. Noting that my statement that Fox considers all twelve films canon is an overview of the contents of my OP and thus demonstrably accurate. You have not yet demonstrated anything to the contrary.
Just because you can make a case for a share universe, that doesn't make it true. Fox, via the wy report, says there are two universes
Oh yeah my bad. I meant Planet 4.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:00:37 AM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 03, 2019, 09:10:19 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 09:03:18 AM
Please read my OP.
People did. It is just not the indisputable truth you claim it is. Regardless how often you claim it.
At best (if they've actually read it at all), they must have skimmed through it all out frustration at its contents.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:00:37 AM
I doubt they have, and at best they may have skimmed through it. Once again, I NEVER implied that my OP was supposedly "infallible" so please stop misrepresenting me. I merely suggested that it's the strongest case that can be made, and since you have not been able to properly respond to its arguments, I take that as confirmation that you reluctantly agree with its contents but refuse to endorse it because it's not what you want. Noting that my statement that Fox considers all twelve films canon is an overview of the contents of my OP and thus demonstrably accurate. You have not yet demonstrated anything to the contrary.
Dat arrogance ::)
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 09:26:59 AM
Honestly, I feel the only issue is that just because you can make charles bishop weyland and peter weyland work, it does not mean they are in the same universe.
I appreciate you admitting that Charles and Peter are perfectly able to co-exist, and granted, the mere fact that they actually can co-exist doesn't prove that they actually do, and that's why we take the rest of the arguments in my OP into consideration and look at it all with more context, which would only further the plausibility of them actually being father and son (at least that would be the most reasonable understanding of their relationship).
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 09:39:00 AM
No, Charles bishop weyland and Peter Weyland exists in different universes, per the wy report.
I have this beautiful work sitting right on my desk with me, and I can safely say that
The Weyland-Yutani Report does NOT suggest any such thing, and once more, if you are going to consider this work canonical, then you simply have to consider
AVP canonical as well since it acknowledges
Fire and Stone and
Life and Death.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 09:46:56 AM
Your argument that Fox considers then all canon to each other is wrong because they don't. They say they don't. That's all that's needed to prove that part wrong.
The rest is up to you.
Another baseless claim. Please elaborate.
Then there is nothing more to argue. The wy report said that charles and peter don't exist in the same universe. So there are two universes
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 09:51:59 AM
No, fire and stone and avp 2004 take place in different universes
Fire and Stone by mere association with
AVP (and the
Alien,
Predator,
AVP, and
Prometheus films in general, not to mention the logo itself which is taken straight out of the movies) acknowledges that it all takes place in the same universe.
Charles bishop weyland is not mentioned in the wy report
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 03, 2019, 09:58:02 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 09:12:46 AM
But the film doesn't even establish David as the creator, it leaves the issue up to interpretation, and other works contradict the idea of David as creator (eg. the official novel of Covenant and the home video release of Prometheus). You don't have to ignore anything, you simply need to put it all in context, so it turns out David is merely producing his very own variants of Xenomorphs, not creating the species as a whole.
Except it does. And no amount of handwaving about it "being open to interpretation" makes it so.
Who cares what the novel says? The novelizations of Aliens and Alien contradicted a lot of stuff in the movies, nobody thinks that is actually canon.
A marketing short from a previous movie contradicting the later movie also proofs nothing as it is just that, a special feature from a previous movie. And if that is not enough for you, Ridley, same director of Covenant and Prometheus stated that David did it. Why do you give a little extra from the movie more weight than the word of the director of the same movie?
You can claim you proofed anything all you want, when you not even proved that the scene in the actual movie, the one with David going through his experiments, is actually up for interpretation, all the "evidence" outside of the movie does not matter, cause the actual movie trumps novelizations, previous crossover entries and home release extras of previous entries.
And no, how long the black goo existed is also no evidence for anything.
And of course we have old Ridles statement that you also conveniently handwave away because it does not fit your argument. All that while one of your arguments is what the directors and crew of the AVPs had to say on the matter. Is it because one fits your narrative and one does not?
Also please stop trying to guesswork Fox's intention on the whole matter to give your arguments some kind of "official" weight, when you actually get told how they see it again and again and again by one who actually works with them.
Except it doesn't, and refusing to make a case for it won't make your insistence any less unfounded. At least I made a hopefully well-reasoned case for my stance in my OP. The actual movie still indeed leaves the issue up to interpretation, and the official novel for
Covenant and the home video release of
Prometheus still contradicts the claim of David as creator (and so does various other previous works of course). The fact that the black goo has existed for billions of years provides a great deal of room for several different forms of Xenomorphs to develop and be designed by different individuals and factions of Engineers multiple times, and so if the black goo so easily produces Xenbomorph-like creatures and David could so easily produce his own variants, then why could they not have arisen many times before? Noting that the official novel states that they did. Noting that I'm not "guessworking" Fox's intention as we can make a good case for what their stance actually is, as argued in my OP.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 10:05:01 AM
Just because you can make a case for a share universe, that doesn't make it true. Fox, via the wy report, says there are two universes
It's the very fact that I did make a well-reasoned and well-evidenced case for the shared universe that does make it true. Also, I repeat,
The Weyland-Yutani Report does NOT imply that there are supposedly "two different universes".
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 03, 2019, 10:05:59 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:00:37 AM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 03, 2019, 09:10:19 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 09:03:18 AM
Please read my OP.
People did. It is just not the indisputable truth you claim it is. Regardless how often you claim it.
At best (if they've actually read it at all), they must have skimmed through it all out frustration at its contents.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:00:37 AM
I doubt they have, and at best they may have skimmed through it. Once again, I NEVER implied that my OP was supposedly "infallible" so please stop misrepresenting me. I merely suggested that it's the strongest case that can be made, and since you have not been able to properly respond to its arguments, I take that as confirmation that you reluctantly agree with its contents but refuse to endorse it because it's not what you want. Noting that my statement that Fox considers all twelve films canon is an overview of the contents of my OP and thus demonstrably accurate. You have not yet demonstrated anything to the contrary.
Dat arrogance ::)
What "arrogance"? Noting that this was quite the juvenile response on your part.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 10:11:18 AM
Then there is nothing more to argue. The wy report said that charles and peter don't exist in the same universe. So there are two universes
And I repeat once more,
The Weyland-Yutani Report states NO SUCH THING.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:07:25 AM
Another baseless claim. Please elaborate.
Time and time again, it has been stated. People who work with Fox and are in contact with Fox have confirmed they do not hold all the films as canon to each other.
That is the fact. You can write a thousand page treatise on why you
think that's not the case, but no amount of self-important rambling will change the fact that the company does not agree with the words you are trying to put in its mouth.
Put this in perspective: you are getting annoyed when you think people are misrepresenting your words. That is what you're doing to Fox. They have said they don't consider them canon to each other, you're trying to say they do regardless.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 10:16:29 AM
Charles bishop weyland is not mentioned in the wy report
There's a lot of things that
The Weyland-Yutani Report doesn't mention, but the mere fact that it doesn't cover something doesn't mean that said something isn't considered canonical.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:25:47 AM
There's a lot of things that The Weyland-Yutani Report doesn't mention, but the mere fact that it doesn't cover something doesn't mean that said something isn't considered canonical.
The fact the book about the Company doesn't mention the supposed earlier founder of the Company speaks volumes.
Because it's arrogant to conclude that I agree with your argument, I do not. In any capacity.
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 06:25:52 AM
What would seriously need to be on film to confirm Charles Bishop Weyland never existed?
Would they have to establish that Yutani built a space shuttle launch site in 1984 in Antarctica?
Which then you would claim is evidence of a cover up.
Or perhaps you'd ask for Peter Weyland's entire genealogy,
which then you'd claim has been falsified to make him look like more of a genius.
Do you need Michael Bishop's (falsified) genealogy too,
to certify that he's unrelated to the Peter Weyland bloodline?
This discussion is, as always: a farce- because you'll fanfiction your way around any contradiction.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 10:24:44 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:07:25 AM
Another baseless claim. Please elaborate.
Time and time again, it has been stated. People who work with Fox and are in contact with Fox have confirmed they do not hold all the films as canon to each other.
That is the fact. You can write a thousand page treatise on why you think that's not the case, but no amount of self-important rambling will change the fact that the company does not agree with the words you are trying to put in its mouth.
Put this in perspective: you are getting annoyed when you think people are misrepresenting your words. That is what you're doing to Fox. They have said they don't consider them canon to each other, you're trying to say they do regardless.
Yes, time and time again the claim has been made, and mostly it seems people have been referring to a single individual in this forum (being SM), who is NOT an actual representative of Fox to begin with, and his arguments seem to be more personal than representative of Fox's views. Once more, you're proving your stance to be more empty than may have initially been implied.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:25:47 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 10:16:29 AM
Charles bishop weyland is not mentioned in the wy report
There's a lot of things that The Weyland-Yutani Report doesn't mention, but the mere fact that it doesn't cover something doesn't mean that said something isn't considered canonical.
Honestly, at this point I think the burden of proof is on you to prove that Charles and peter exists in the same universe and is father and son.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:20:12 AM
What "arrogance"? Noting that this was quite the juvenile response on your part.
Assuming people either get too frustarted with the content of your OP so they just skim it and don't see the truth because of that or that they secretly agree, swayed by your arguing but don't want to admit it.
Assuming there is no way somebody actually read it and still does not agree.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:29:22 AM
and his arguments seem to be more personal than representative of Fox's views.
This is your supposition, which is baseless and incorrect.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 10:26:34 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:25:47 AM
There's a lot of things that The Weyland-Yutani Report doesn't mention, but the mere fact that it doesn't cover something doesn't mean that said something isn't considered canonical.
The fact the book about the Company doesn't mention the supposed earlier founder of the Company speaks volumes.
No, it doesn't, you're reading too much into nothing. If you want a reason for why it doesn't mention it then it could simply be stated that Weyland Corporation is a new iteration of the company founded by Peter, taking the assets from the former company to build the new, whereas Charles died eight years before Peter claimed the throne and brought the company to where it's at now. It doesn't have to mention Charles or its earlier history.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 03, 2019, 10:28:36 AM
Because it's arrogant to conclude that I agree with your argument, I do not. In any capacity.
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 06:25:52 AM
What would seriously need to be on film to confirm Charles Bishop Weyland never existed?
Would they have to establish that Yutani built a space shuttle launch site in 1984 in Antarctica?
Which then you would claim is evidence of a cover up.
Or perhaps you'd ask for Peter Weyland's entire genealogy,
which then you'd claim has been falsified to make him look like more of a genius.
Do you need Michael Bishop's (falsified) genealogy too,
to certify that he's unrelated to the Peter Weyland bloodline?
This discussion is, as always: a farce- because you'll fanfiction your way around any contradiction.
It's not fan-fiction, it's a demonstration that there is no contradiction (noting that "not mentioning something" does not equate to said something being "contradicted"), because then it wouldn't be able to be explained, but as it turns out it's far too easy to explain.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 10:30:14 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:25:47 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 10:16:29 AM
Charles bishop weyland is not mentioned in the wy report
There's a lot of things that The Weyland-Yutani Report doesn't mention, but the mere fact that it doesn't cover something doesn't mean that said something isn't considered canonical.
Honestly, at this point I think the burden of proof is on you to prove that Charles and peter exists in the same universe and is father and son.
I already presented my case in my OP. You just need to go back and read it.
No, you have proven they could be father and son, not actually father and son. And to proof that its all one universe, you need to actually prove they are father and son.
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 03, 2019, 10:31:16 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:20:12 AM
What "arrogance"? Noting that this was quite the juvenile response on your part.
Assuming people either get too frustarted with the content of your OP so they just skim it and don't see the truth because of that or that they secretly agree, swayed by your arguing but don't want to admit it.
Assuming there is no way somebody actually read it and still does not agree.
Well their behavior clearly indicates some level of frustration and since they refuse to properly address my arguments in the OP (which they could easily do if they had a case to make against it) then I can only assume that it's all due to some uncomfortable experience with the contents of my OP, which would be understandable, especially judging from past experiences with people within this fanbase (as well as others). This all brings me to doubt that some people actually care to carefully read it through. I can understand that they don't agree with it, but whether or not they can justify why they don't agree with is another thing.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 10:31:35 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:29:22 AM
and his arguments seem to be more personal than representative of Fox's views.
This is your supposition, which is baseless and incorrect.
No, that conclusion came as a result of my discussion with SM.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 10:41:42 AM
No, you have proven they could be father and son, not actually father and son. And to proof that its all one universe, you need to actually prove they are father and son.
Again, I'm confident I made more than enough of a well-reasoned case for this in my OP.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:41:49 AM
No, that conclusion came as a result of my discussion with SM.
How you choose to interpret a conversation is not proof of anything. Your supposition is still baseless and incorrect.
It's a chronicle of the Company's Founding and history with the Alien, if Charles Bishop Weyland (The Company's original founder, according to you) first discovered the Alien in a pyramid in 2004, don't you think that'd rate a mention?
1. Stop assuming things about me.
2. Everyone's read your goddamn OP, stop shoving it down people's throats it's still...
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WRONG
That's not good enough. You need actual proof, and not just a case.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 10:44:20 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:41:49 AM
No, that conclusion came as a result of my discussion with SM.
How you choose to interpret a conversation is not proof of anything. Your supposition is still baseless and incorrect.
It's not as much about how I interpreted the conversation but more about the contents of said conversation. He didn't exactly make a very strong case for his stance.
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 10:45:22 AM
That's not good enough. You need actual proof, and not just a case.
Are you a child? Because the fact that I even state to have a case implies that I have evidence to support my stance, which is again provided in the OP.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:41:49 AM
Well their behavior clearly indicates some level of frustration and since they refuse to properly address my arguments in the OP (which they could easily do if they had a case to make against it) then I can only assume that it's all due to some uncomfortable experience with the contents of my OP, which would be understandable, especially judging from past experiences with people within this fanbase (as well as others). This all brings me to doubt that some people actually care to carefully read it through. I can understand that they don't agree with it, but whether or not they can justify why they don't agree with is another thing.
Or maybe your arguments in the OP are not all that what you think they are and maybe people adequately refute them time and time again but you refuse to acknowlege it because it's not what
you want to hear.
Maybe you just see what you want to see.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:46:10 AM
It's not as much about how I interpreted the conversation but more about the contents of said conversation. He didn't exactly make a very strong case for his stance.
The contents were "I work with Fox and they say the films aren't canon to each other."
Your interpretation is "This sounds like a personal opinion, not the Company line."
Whether you're satisfied with his specific wording is utterly irrelevant. He's in a position to answer the question; the answer is you are incorrect.
Lol I can't understand why he just can't accept that there are two universes
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 03, 2019, 10:48:29 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:41:49 AM
Well their behavior clearly indicates some level of frustration and since they refuse to properly address my arguments in the OP (which they could easily do if they had a case to make against it) then I can only assume that it's all due to some uncomfortable experience with the contents of my OP, which would be understandable, especially judging from past experiences with people within this fanbase (as well as others). This all brings me to doubt that some people actually care to carefully read it through. I can understand that they don't agree with it, but whether or not they can justify why they don't agree with is another thing.
Or maybe your arguments in the OP are not all that what you think they are and maybe people adequately refute them time and time again but you refuse to acknowlege it because it's not what you want to hear.
Maybe you just see what you want to see.
Or maybe you should avoid misrepresenting me (and stop making yourself a hypocrite as far as "seeing what you want to see" is concerned) and acknowledge that not a single response in this entire thread has properly addressed the case made in my OP, and at best they have mentioned and insisted upon arguments which are already addressed in the OP.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 03, 2019, 10:49:06 AM
Ok.
Insulting people now, not surprised.
Not anything different from the treatment some people have been giving me throughout this entire thread.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:57:46 AM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 03, 2019, 10:48:29 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:41:49 AM
Well their behavior clearly indicates some level of frustration and since they refuse to properly address my arguments in the OP (which they could easily do if they had a case to make against it) then I can only assume that it's all due to some uncomfortable experience with the contents of my OP, which would be understandable, especially judging from past experiences with people within this fanbase (as well as others). This all brings me to doubt that some people actually care to carefully read it through. I can understand that they don't agree with it, but whether or not they can justify why they don't agree with is another thing.
Or maybe your arguments in the OP are not all that what you think they are and maybe people adequately refute them time and time again but you refuse to acknowlege it because it's not what you want to hear.
Maybe you just see what you want to see.
Or maybe you should avoid misrepresenting me (and stop making yourself a hypocrite as far as "seeing what you want to see" is concerned) and acknowledge that not a single response in this entire thread has properly addressed the case made in my OP, and at best they have mentioned and insisted upon arguments which are already addressed in the OP.
Don't be a hypocrite, admit Iam right. Also see the light of my OP. Got it.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 10:52:19 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:46:10 AM
It's not as much about how I interpreted the conversation but more about the contents of said conversation. He didn't exactly make a very strong case for his stance.
The contents were "I work with Fox and they say the films aren't canon to each other."
Your interpretation is "This sounds like a personal opinion, not the Company line."
Whether you're satisfied with his specific wording is utterly irrelevant. He's in a position to answer the question; the answer is you are incorrect.
That is once more a misrepresentation. What he actually said was "When new stories are developed, we consider other Alien sources - we do not consider AvP" and which was generally true (with obvious exceptions) as we all ought to be aware of, but it had nothing to do with what is canon, but this was a mere licensing issue. He's not even representing Fox, and he never claimed to know what Fox has said on the issue, so how could he possibly be in an actual position to answer the question?
Quote from: yhe1 on Feb 03, 2019, 10:52:54 AM
Lol I can't understand why he just can't accept that there are two universes
Probably because you have not yet demonstrated your claim to be accurate.
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 03, 2019, 11:02:11 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:57:46 AM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Feb 03, 2019, 10:48:29 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 10:41:49 AM
Well their behavior clearly indicates some level of frustration and since they refuse to properly address my arguments in the OP (which they could easily do if they had a case to make against it) then I can only assume that it's all due to some uncomfortable experience with the contents of my OP, which would be understandable, especially judging from past experiences with people within this fanbase (as well as others). This all brings me to doubt that some people actually care to carefully read it through. I can understand that they don't agree with it, but whether or not they can justify why they don't agree with is another thing.
Or maybe your arguments in the OP are not all that what you think they are and maybe people adequately refute them time and time again but you refuse to acknowlege it because it's not what you want to hear.
Maybe you just see what you want to see.
Or maybe you should avoid misrepresenting me (and stop making yourself a hypocrite as far as "seeing what you want to see" is concerned) and acknowledge that not a single response in this entire thread has properly addressed the case made in my OP, and at best they have mentioned and insisted upon arguments which are already addressed in the OP.
Don't be a hypocrite, admit Iam right. Also see the light of my OP. Got it.
Not what I said, but thanks once again for misrepresenting me.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 11:03:28 AM
He's not even representing Fox, and he never claimed to know what Fox has said on the issue, so how could he possibly be in an actual position to answer the question?
He has claimed several times,
in this thread, that he knows what Fox has said on the issue, as he frequently works with them.
You are now ignoring what people are saying and wilfully misinterpreting it to protect your opinion.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 11:05:39 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 11:03:28 AM
He's not even representing Fox, and he never claimed to know what Fox has said on the issue, so how could he possibly be in an actual position to answer the question?
He has claimed several times, in this thread, that he knows what Fox has said on the issue, as he frequently works with them.
You are now ignoring what people are saying and wilfully misinterpreting it to protect your opinion.
Yes, so he has claimed, and I already addressed what he actually had to say on the issue.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 11:07:26 AM
Yes, so he has claimed, and I already addressed what he actually had to say on the issue.
What he had to say was "Fox does not agree with what you are saying."
You haven't addressed it, you just keep insisting you're right. You make a baseless claim that he doesn't know what he's talking about, and continue on like you've won some argument. You're misinterpreting and ignoring information to suit your needs. And then spending the entire rest of the thread complaining that people are misinterpreting your words and ignoring your precious OP.
Again; you don't care about facts, you care about being right.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 03, 2019, 11:08:30 AM
At least these Canon sectarians aren't as bad as those dirty Al Bheds eh Turok?
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 03, 2019, 10:45:02 AM
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WRONG
Not claimed, stated.
I beg your pardon?
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 11:10:08 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 11:07:26 AM
Yes, so he has claimed, and I already addressed what he actually had to say on the issue.
What he had to say was "Fox does not agree with what you are saying."
You haven't addressed it, you just keep insisting you're right. You make a baseless claim that he doesn't know what he's talking about, and continue on like you've won some argument. You're misinterpreting and ignoring information to suit your needs. And then spending the entire rest of the thread complaining that people are misinterpreting your words and ignoring your precious OP.
Again; you don't care about facts, you care about being right.
I just did address it once more just a few responses ago in order to remind you. Noting that the fact that you keep falsely referring to my OP as "precious and irrefutable" just goes to further demonstrate the desperation and frustration that its contents trigger. Again, it's just a strong case, and if you've got a better case to be made against it then please suggest it.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 03, 2019, 11:15:00 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iACW002wuw
Now that's funny! ^^
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 11:15:12 AM
I just did address it once more just a few responses ago in order to remind you. Noting that the fact that you keep falsely referring to my OP as "precious and irrefutable" just goes to further demonstrate the desperation and frustration that its contents trigger.
You didn't address it then either; you rolled out the same wilful misinterpretation of his words and meaning to support yourself. And I have never once referred to your OP as "irrefutable", simply precious (and only once), which you clearly hold it to be.
The only frustration is in your obstinate refusal to acknowledge reality when it contradicts what you believe.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 11:19:01 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 11:15:12 AM
I just did address it once more just a few responses ago in order to remind you. Noting that the fact that you keep falsely referring to my OP as "precious and irrefutable" just goes to further demonstrate the desperation and frustration that its contents trigger.
You didn't address it then either; you rolled out the same wilful misinterpretation of his words and meaning to support yourself. And I have never once referred to your OP as "irrefutable", simply precious (and only once), which you clearly hold it to be.
The only frustration is in your obstinate refusal to acknowledge reality when it contradicts what you believe.
Where did I supposedly "misinterpret" his words? Also, the "irrefutable and precious" comment was a summary of how some people have repeatedly spoken of my OP, and I'm merely recognizing it as the strong case that it is (I mean it does cite actual sources, both past and present, from the studio), and once again, feel free to properly address it if you have a stronger case to be made against it, but people suspiciously seem to be still avoiding this. As for that last remark, I think you should take a careful look in the mirror.
Damn I go to sleep, wake up and you guys are still arguing over the same canon subject. That's a lot of motivation.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 11:31:52 AM
Where did I supposedly "misinterpret" his words?
Where he said "Fox does not agree" and you take this to mean literally anything other than "Fox does not agree."
QuoteAlso, the "irrefutable and precious" comment was a summary of how some people have repeatedly spoken of my OP,
I'm not "people", I'm me.
Your argument is weak simply because the reality is the company you're saying treats them all as canon to each other, does not in fact treat them as all canon to each other. If you just removed that one claim -- that the company itself thinks that -- the rest of your OP would be a fine exercise in trying to make it all work. But so long as you attempt to put fallacious words in a company's mouth, it's weak.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 03, 2019, 11:33:20 AM
Damn I go to sleep, wake up and you guys are still arguing over the same canon subject. That's a lot of motivation.
I'm not, I'm just laughing now.
I'm gonna need a bit of evidence/proof on SM's part.
Quote from: The Old One on Feb 03, 2019, 11:37:28 AM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 03, 2019, 11:33:20 AM
Damn I go to sleep, wake up and you guys are still arguing over the same canon subject. That's a lot of motivation.
I'm not, I'm just laughing now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixB-bXPmvEQ
Spoiler
That's the spirit
(https://i.imgur.com/56S8bs1.png)
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 11:38:45 AM
I'm gonna need a bit of evidence/proof on SM's part.
Christ I hope you're being facetious at this point :D
Quote from: SiL on Feb 03, 2019, 11:36:02 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Feb 03, 2019, 11:31:52 AM
Where did I supposedly "misinterpret" his words?
Where he said "Fox does not agree" and you take this to mean literally anything other than "Fox does not agree."
QuoteAlso, the "irrefutable and precious" comment was a summary of how some people have repeatedly spoken of my OP,
I'm not "people", I'm me.
Your argument is weak simply because the reality is the company you're saying treats them all as canon to each other, does not in fact treat them as all canon to each other. If you just removed that one claim -- that the company itself thinks that -- the rest of your OP would be a fine exercise in trying to make it all work. But so long as you attempt to put fallacious words in a company's mouth, it's weak.
But his claim that "Fox does not agree" was refuted, as he made it clear he drew that conclusion from how they handled the licenses (rather than having been directly told by Fox how they handle canonical issues). I mean, come on! Also, my argument is not at all weakened merely by your insistence that his words are accurate (they demonstrably aren't, and you are greatly misrepresenting and exaggerating the actual value of his words), and you are still left with the arguments I made in the OP and you still opt to ignore it all and just impose your view unto me instead.
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Feb 03, 2019, 11:38:45 AM
I'm gonna need a bit of evidence/proof on SM's part.
I second that demand!