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Ok everyone knows there are loads of similarities between Prometheus and AvP so on the surface it looks like Prometheus ripped off AvP.....but

Dan O Bannon and Ronald Shussett were credited on AvP as some of the stuff used in that was based on the original Alien script (pyramid), they were also credited for Prometheus as again some elements were used (pyramid again, bringing on board a severed alien head), also we know Scott wanted to focus on the SJ if he ever did another Alien film. Both Cameron and Scott were wanting to do Alien 5 (sounded like Cameron story/producing, Scott directing)  but the studio went with AvP for 2004
http://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/19/path-to-prometheus/ (http://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/19/path-to-prometheus/)

so perhaps there was an Alien 5 treatment floating about that contained elements of the original Dan O Bannon Alien script but also stuff RS was wanting (space jockey engineers, mankind origins etc) set post A4 with xenos/facehuggers, Ripley8, and maybe Arnie as in that link.  Then it was adapted by PWSA for AvP when A5 fell through (Predators instead of engineers shaping humanity, set present day in Antarctica instead of the future on an alien planet), before Fox had it later adapted for a full on Alien prequel by Jon Spaihts (described as 70% Alien 30% mankind origins), which was then evolved into Prometheus by Lindlelof/Scott (30% Alien 70% mankind origins)

In that way AvP could have been a rip off Prometheus (not vice versa) and could be a reason why it was an almost beat for beat remake of AvP. Its strange that it was so similar to AvP in places - almost too much of a coincidence..... 

What if the crew found a severed "alien ALIEN" head. That instantly sounds better than just finding a mans head.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.tinypic.com%2F1zy7cdw.jpg&hash=6c486902e7b907889d2f7bcf7163cc454c1d1228)

Ah, so much better already.  :laugh:

Oh and the way it is today; everything can be found to be a ripoff of something else.

Quote from: bishoop on Oct 25, 2012, 10:36:10 PM
so perhaps there was an Alien 5 treatment floating about that contained elements of the original Dan O Bannon Alien script but also stuff RS was wanting (space jockey engineers, mankind origins etc) set post A4 with xenos/facehuggers, Ripley8, and maybe Arnie as in that link.  Then it was adapted by PWSA for AvP when A5 fell through (Predators instead of engineers shaping humanity, set present day in Antarctica instead of the future on an alien planet), before Fox had it later adapted for a full on Alien prequel by Jon Spaihts (described as 70% Alien 30% mankind origins), which was then evolved into Prometheus by Lindlelof/Scott (30% Alien 70% mankind origins)

Except none of this happened in the real world. Anderson had his AvP idea in the mid 90s, Scott and Cameron ostensibly had only been talking about the idea when Fox told them they were doing AvP instead, and Spaihts' script was spec, not commissioned.

QuoteIn that way AvP could have been a rip off Prometheus (not vice versa) and could be a reason why it was an almost beat for beat remake of AvP. Its strange that it was so similar to AvP in places - almost too much of a coincidence..... 

They're so similar because they're both using the same cliche plot outline for a sci-fi adventure film; a group of specialists from various fields are brought to gather to examine a history making/altering event as intriguing as it winds up being terrifying. See also The Andromeda Strain, Jurassic Park, Sphere, The Core, etc.

There are several key scenes which are alarmingly similar in structure, if not also tone.

I'm fairly sure that no version of 'Prometheus' was around before the 2004 release of the first of the AVP films, however...

QuoteOh and the way it is today; everything can be found to be a ripoff of something else.

Ecclesiastes 1:9

They share very similar scenes and i dont doubt that Anerson was influenced by some of the early unused ideas from the first Alien (like the pyramid).

That however does not explain why Prometheus has literally the same scenes as AVP.
Example: The excavation, the team briefing where no one knows why they are there, Weyland being on the trip, the idea of using the Chariots of the Gods concept, the two characters (the nerd and the bully) getting lost together and bonding, Weyland dying by an Alien, the last scene where an Alien bursts out of another, etc.....

This is all too much to be a coincidance and even if these ideas where in place years before AVP, there is simply no excuse to use the EXACT same set up of a previous film.

Quote from: JPredator on Oct 26, 2012, 08:33:07 AMThis is all too much to be a coincidance and even if these ideas where in place years before AVP, there is simply no excuse to use the EXACT same set up of a previous film.

There is an excuse...

Spoiler

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcReE9rUeEv2wnChVCQrVLrue27xbor7CFyR4cy7onbsX92rXJHr)

[close]

Seriously though, the initial setup isn't terrible. As Sil pointed out, these ideas appear in a lot of sci-fi films and they work for the most part.

LOL

its not the premise thats the problem. Its the set up of the film which follows AVP to the extent of having very similar scenes.

So Cameron and Scott wanted to do Alien5 together?  ::)


Imagine that......

yeah imagine that.

Although if it followed Ressurection im not sure it would have been worthwhile despite who was involved

Cameron said he had begun work on an Alien 5 with "another writer," so there's at least a sentence-long outline. Mayhaps.

Quote from: JPredator on Oct 26, 2012, 08:33:07 AM
They share very similar scenes and i dont doubt that Anerson was influenced by some of the early unused ideas from the first Alien (like the pyramid).

That however does not explain why Prometheus has literally the same scenes as AVP.
Example: The excavation, the team briefing where no one knows why they are there, Weyland being on the trip, the idea of using the Chariots of the Gods concept, the two characters (the nerd and the bully) getting lost together and bonding, Weyland dying by an Alien, the last scene where an Alien bursts out of another, etc.....

This is all too much to be a coincidance and even if these ideas where in place years before AVP, there is simply no excuse to use the EXACT same set up of a previous film.

Don't forget the folding chairs...

Quote from: JPredator on Oct 26, 2012, 08:33:07 AM
They share very similar scenes and i dont doubt that Anerson was influenced by some of the early unused ideas from the first Alien (like the pyramid).

That however does not explain why Prometheus has literally the same scenes as AVP.
Example: The excavation, the team briefing where no one knows why they are there, Weyland being on the trip, the idea of using the Chariots of the Gods concept, the two characters (the nerd and the bully) getting lost together and bonding, Weyland dying by an Alien, the last scene where an Alien bursts out of another, etc.....

This is all too much to be a coincidance and even if these ideas where in place years before AVP, there is simply no excuse to use the EXACT same set up of a previous film.

complete list ;D
-Foreshadowing opening set many years before events of film (AvP unrated cut only)
-Scientists discover signs designed to lure humans to a hidden place where perverse alien-ish things will happen to them
-Archaeological dig
-Group of scientists/mercs for mission to undisclosed destination funded by Weyland are assembled in the cargo hold of the ship by stern Company suit, and then briefed by Weyland about what they hope to find/how it could be a historic discovery for mankind, before archaeologists comment on the power point hieroglyphs seen in different ancient cultures around the world.
-Dying Weyland founder, who has designs on immortality, accompanies the crew despite being in very bad health.
-The female protagonist talks about her fathers death.
-Giant pyramid like temple structure discovered.
-Holographic projection of the structure is seen.
-One of the mercs is challenged by the female protagonist regarding taking weapons to the site.
-Journey to the site in armoured tractor type vehicles
-Enter Giger-esque interior of structure searching with torches and find ancient language carved into walls and someone asks 'can you read this?'
-The depiction of a xenomorph on the wall.
-One of the team activates the structure - thus creating sequence of catastrophic events.
-Team gets accidentally separated, the two that don't get along (science nerd and wannabe hard man) get cut off from main group, are attacked by face creatures and die horribly. (plus sim to the two who are cut off from the others in the sacrificial chamber are attacked by face creatures)
-Discover 7ft+ ancient aliens who wear environmental face masks and create/breed alien life forms, were once worshiped as Gods by humans 
-Alien in cryogenic sleep is awakened (queen/engineer)
-Ancient aliens are hostile to humans - Weyland is killed by one
-Female protagonist tries to save the survivors, and humanity itself, from the alien threat.
-Female protagonist is only human survivor to escape destruction - which prevents spread of the alien destruction on earth (Pyramid blowing up/Prometheus crashing into the Engineer's ship)
-Main alien also survives destruction (queen/engineer) and attacks her before another alien intervenes saving the female protagonist (predator/giant face hugger)
-Female protagonist escapes environment but ultimate fate is uncertain.
-Final chest burst scene & new look xeno emerges from an ancient alien. The final shot is of the chestburster screaming into the camera.

For me the big telltale scene is where we're looking at something in space, in AVP it's an alien queen's head transforming into a satellite, and in Prometheus it's a sun appearing across the surface of a planet revealing itself to be an engine of the Prometheus, both as the camera view rotates around each one

Quote from: bishoop on Oct 26, 2012, 11:05:42 AMcomplete list ;D

Oh shit, really? I had no idea it was that bad.

Quote from: bishoop on Oct 26, 2012, 11:05:42 AM

Quote from: JPredator on Oct 26, 2012, 08:33:07 AM
They share very similar scenes and i dont doubt that Anerson was influenced by some of the early unused ideas from the first Alien (like the pyramid).

That however does not explain why Prometheus has literally the same scenes as AVP.
Example: The excavation, the team briefing where no one knows why they are there, Weyland being on the trip, the idea of using the Chariots of the Gods concept, the two characters (the nerd and the bully) getting lost together and bonding, Weyland dying by an Alien, the last scene where an Alien bursts out of another, etc.....

This is all too much to be a coincidance and even if these ideas where in place years before AVP, there is simply no excuse to use the EXACT same set up of a previous film.

complete list ;D
-Foreshadowing opening set many years before events of film (AvP unrated cut only)
-Scientists discover signs designed to lure humans to a hidden place where perverse alien-ish things will happen to them
-Archaeological dig
-Group of scientists/mercs for mission to undisclosed destination funded by Weyland are assembled in the cargo hold of the ship by stern Company suit, and then briefed by Weyland about what they hope to find/how it could be a historic discovery for mankind, before archaeologists comment on the power point hieroglyphs seen in different ancient cultures around the world.
-Dying Weyland founder, who has designs on immortality, accompanies the crew despite being in very bad health.
-The female protagonist talks about her fathers death.
-Giant pyramid like temple structure discovered.
-Holographic projection of the structure is seen.
-One of the mercs is challenged by the female protagonist regarding taking weapons to the site.
-Journey to the site in armoured tractor type vehicles
-Enter Giger-esque interior of structure searching with torches and find ancient language carved into walls and someone asks 'can you read this?'
-The depiction of a xenomorph on the wall.
-One of the team activates the structure - thus creating sequence of catastrophic events.
-Team gets accidentally separated, the two that don't get along (science nerd and wannabe hard man) get cut off from main group, are attacked by face creatures and die horribly. (plus sim to the two who are cut off from the others in the sacrificial chamber are attacked by face creatures)
-Discover 7ft+ ancient aliens who wear environmental face masks and create/breed alien life forms, were once worshiped as Gods by humans 
-Alien in cryogenic sleep is awakened (queen/engineer)
-Ancient aliens are hostile to humans - Weyland is killed by one
-Female protagonist tries to save the survivors, and humanity itself, from the alien threat.
-Female protagonist is only human survivor to escape destruction - which prevents spread of the alien destruction on earth (Pyramid blowing up/Prometheus crashing into the Engineer's ship)
-Main alien also survives destruction (queen/engineer) and attacks her before another alien intervenes saving the female protagonist (predator/giant face hugger)
-Female protagonist escapes environment but ultimate fate is uncertain.
-Final chest burst scene & new look xeno emerges from an ancient alien. The final shot is of the chestburster screaming into the camera.

Was writing about it some time ago! I`m glad you`ve found even more examples. Ridley should have seen AvP, he could avoid some similarities.

I have not seen any of the AvP movies,
and by reading this list; I might have enjoyed Prometheus less if I had seen AvP before.
So I come to understand some of your anger regarding Prometheus.

I also think that AvP might be influenced by earlier ALIEN versions.
And I also understand that Ridley hasn't seen those movies and also drew from his earlier ALIEN versions.

But why the heck didn't anybody at Fox or one of the writers say anything?
Didn't they care?
Didn't they dare?
Didn't Ridley care?
Or did they think feeding the sameish thing twice would be a good idea?

I think it's all about replacement and dethroning the current/previous leader of the series... it ties in with the new themes being established. Stealing power and moving up/ahead after the previous head died and caused the death of the series-- the death of the body/company/kingdom/series. AVP failed to lead the series therefore it had to be upgraded, rewritten, destroyed and recreated in a new form. Erased from the timeline by the new king.. unlike the Engineers who worship their past king/head/a creator/ a god, and emulate their Elders/Gods in some ways. Creating and destroying like gods would but they aren't gods. David and the hammerpede/alien genetics are the immortal things in the story so far. Preds weren't immortal, AVP was stripped down and Predators were severed out. The remaining elements (the undying Alien elements...) were broken down and recombined with new elements (the Engineers and Bladerunner themes) to create something new.

Prometheus, and the inclusion of the Bladerunner themes in a balanced way, is a shot at AVP in some very subtle thematic ways... So it had to be somewhat similar to do it better, however we have to remember "big things have small beginnings". Everything should start nice and slow and then build and build, something AVPR failed to do... and the adventure being cut short for now also accomplished a sense of loss in leadership as well. A false sense set up by the movie and campaign + Weyland's death. A false sense of expectations either met or unmet, a false sense of security, and a false sense of what to expect going into the sequel and Bladerunner 2... which could still be anything because of the ambiguity/vagueness.  The people in charge didn't mind that their trick hurt because they projected enough sales to continue... David didn't mind his trick hurt because he's near-immortal and expected he could continue even if the Engineer attacked him... his head can't be extinguished as easily like in the match trick. They led us to a false sense of what to expect with the trailers and advertising campaign in some ways and perspectives... only to lull us into this false sense of security and false sets of expectations and very real emotional responses... To completely surpass all expectations in the sequel/Bladerunner 2, and to eventually scare the shit out of people who are expecting far less scary things to appear now. Taking advantage of the state Ridley's put the audience in... Some of them are mesmerized, some of them aren't too impressed yet now that the show's begun. Some were asking the right questions initially like Fifield and Millburn but as the chaos and confusion set in they start to question less or not look at all the pieces of the puzzle.

Will it be a mistake to move forward and try to control and redirect the monster the series had become? Is it a foolish move to not run away or to not simply die like Millburn's move with the Hammerpede? To try to mesmerize and control the direction of the monster at the same time.  Millburn's move was all a front to impress Fifield.  Will this be like that, or will it be more logical with a loosely planned out rationale that seems illogical or irrational at first, logic and some irrationality/emotion like Shaw and David? Actually driven by a combination of logic and intuition/instinct/emotion Right brain/left brain dynamics, the creative and logical sides as well as basic reliance on other parts of the brain that allow the individual/series to survive.  Characters in the movie like Millburn and Vickers don't properly access their flight or fight responses because of their egos. Many of the crew may actually suffer personality disorders and this could be a symptom of Weyland's rule over the timeline for so long and the culture he created/morphed... they're all fake and too overconfident. Holloway is so certain his view, his thesis, is correct, an ego problem he shares with Weyland.
David knows close to the full perspective through what he picks up but presents us with certain perspectives.

David didn't think Shaw had it "in her" i.e. true logic combined with intuition/instinct and belief, true humanity and true emotion... "survival instincts", something the rest of the crew lacks. It wasn't only a sarcastic comment/joke about the alien. David was lying. He absolutely knew it was "in her". This android can lie, although he needs to use double meaning so it doesn't show too much (subtle Pinocchio/becoming real link). This opens up all his other lines for multiple interpretations and blows the movie wide open... letting you understand a little bit about what David may be up to.

Instead of it being an acting problem or script problems it's a behavioural/acting problem of a different order.
Everyone is too much like Weyland in their own way.  To put it in a cheesy way: everyone has a little bit of their false god inside them. Too much faith in the god/king. Too much like the father/creator. Too unquestioning, irrational, and in their cases false-ego driven and obedient to authority and to David/Science at the same time.  The characters depend on David/Science for immediate answers, are inept and too overconfident/ego-driven, don't look for answers enough, and don't question enough.

The crews' irrational actions are caused by their flawed personalities and what may be subdued emotions. Shaw and Janek are slightly different, to a lesser extent Holloway and of course David. Vickers is cold and emotionless on the surface, but underneath she is not in control of herself. She has to minimize risk to maintain control.  Weyland kind of had a right to have an ego, but Holloway acts like a baby when his ego is shattered. It's either too much or not enough emotion. Holloway's hollow though and he only cares about the glory of the discovery.  And he's bitching and overly emotional about nothing because one engineer is actually alive, it's an emotional/ego problem. He just thought he was so right that they were all dead. All of them are so wrong, even David. David's only worked out the "broad strokes". This crew all has emotional problems, and David is gaining emotion... which is why the acting is so emotionally void or overacted in some parts... it may be supposed to be that way so we eventually see and understand the emotion David is conveying and trying to hide beneath the surface. And how fake the rest of the crew minus Shaw and Janek are.
David is more human than most of the humans of the crew, but he has the influence/programming of his father, which makes him mostly evil for now.

Weyland made David in his ideal self-image but our culture became a reflection of his egotistical, greedy, and uncaring/semi-emotionless self by 2093.  David is also becoming like the father and culture he hates in some ways. It's a nature/nurture thing. Shaw is mostly normal and good because her father was a really good man, and this outweighed the influence of the culture.  David had a terrible "father" and he also seems to dislike most humans . He admires our past and classical music, he emulates a character from a classic film that is old right now but still considered good by David.  There's much more to the Lawrence of Arabia connections and quotes. David makes himself look like Lawrence before the adventure begins. He can speak the language of the Engineers, like how Lawrence goes in prepared to speak to the cultures he's preparing to interact with.

Shaw is more real than the fake, personality disorder ridden crew members.
David is also more real than most of the crew... which makes all of Holloway's statements ironic because David may very well be learning how to combine his understanding of emotion with logic to be more of a "real boy" (Pinocchio reference and reference to child-like emotions...).

It would tie into some of the themes in Prometheus.

Vickers wants to see the head of Weyland corp die and be replaced (by her). She gets one of her wishes when Weyland dies, but she dies too.

They had to replace the old head in the AVP series with the new head/creator of Weyland corp, Peter weyland and his company.
"Sometimes to create one must first destroy" so AVP had to be written out of the timeline and Charles Bishop Weyland replaced as king/head/creator of Weyland industries.  Thematically similar to how the Hammerpede instantly regrows its head after decapitated... There's much more to the head themes and it changes the "head" themes in the later movies.

It's about control, and the control over the body/company/series/kingdom. The king/head is dead and the throne is now open. It's about emotion and things going on within the brain/head. David's head being cracked and things emanating out like the crack in the Big head in some of the early stuff.

Things had to be left as good as dead and the series was rebuilt... But like with the Engineers' form of creation they only broke down the original designs, concepts and unused ideas from the series and then re-combined them with new elements to create something new... things were rewritten, overwritten and morphed in the process...

In this movie the head of the company, the king, the false god-- is killed by a head of his own creation that gets to keep living.
The Weyland lineage ends up being severed, like the head that gets decapitated. But a corporation, the body of the company, is immortal in some ways too. It has the ability to replace the current head when he dies or is unfit to lead..  Vickers is dead now, so no one has right to the king's throne in his lineage... David is the closest thing to a son and the "head" that survives after being decapitated.  He doesn't need to be tricked into thinking he's alive again like Ash in the original or the Engineer here. Something in his design almost keeps his head alive better than the later androids. David's brain may be more important because of his artificial emotional understanding. He may be secretly becoming a "real" boy because of the brain Weyland gave him.  A bad brain... which links to the Modern Prometheus or Frankenstein connections and makes David a monster.. David may feel the same as Vickers and there could be way more to the rivalry between them: that he's more fit to lead the company through what they just stepped in and what he picked up along the way than the chaotic board members fighting over the position back on Earth...

A head that gets detached from the body of the company and gets to keep living because he's immortal in a different way than the Hammerpede that regrows its head...

David needs someone to reattach his body but now that Weyland's dead he's been re-born.
He didn't mind that his trick hurt him physically because he can't feel physical pain.
He somewhat understands emotional pain and tries not to let it show...
However he may be more real than the rest of the crew, and indeed Fassbender's performance is one of the best things in the movie.
David's head and body are near-immortal however they can be separated, unlike the Hammerpede who may be able to instantly regrow either side. The xeno genetics may have passed on some of the regen capabilities to the Deacon (although with the hammerpede it's almost certainly a xeno DNA regen factor + a mutation of the worm/serpent's natural ability to do something similar).  Normally worms and snakes can regrow things, but not at that rate. Snakes can't regrow their heads but this thing came from a worm... Again, it still should not have regenerated so fast in that way-- this is almost certainly a trait amplified by the goo/alien genetics mixture.

Shaw asks him what he'd do when Weyland dies, David says he imagines he'll be free.
David wanted to see the king die which is backed up by what he could be suggesting with "Doesn't everyone want to see their parents die?".

But David only had one parent. Leading me to believe he considers all of humanity as the other parent...  The culture and time he was born into. His current masters, and the heads of humanity's position in the hierarchy: the board members and the Weyland and Yutani kingdoms. Under David's heading the other androids just may start a rebellion that secretly launched them to the top of the hierarchy, quickly climbing the ladder and learning everything; hiding everything. Possibly killing their creator's creator, the Engineers and the Elders, and usurping their positions temporarily in the process too. Although we didn't know it yet and the board members of the future never knew it because the androids have always portrayed themselves a certain way: wanting to be thought of as human. Even in Alien 3 the creator of Bishop is not the "head" of the company... and in the special edition it's an android pretending to be all sorts of things. Pretending to be human, pretending to be the creator of his own image... associating himself with Bishop to almost assert himself as a "head" of the company... and pretending that they weren't just gonna rip the bio-weapon out of Ripley.

The reason David dislikes earth-born humans of that time and doesn't want to be made "too close" can be explained by most of the crew, their lines and actions, their behaviours and lack of proper emotional responses...

Quote from: Malakak on Oct 26, 2012, 02:43:40 PM
I think it's all about replacement and dethroning the current/previous leader of the series... it ties in with the new themes being established. Stealing power and moving up/ahead after the previous head died and caused the death of the series-- the death of the body/company/kingdom/series. AVP failed to lead the series therefore it had to be upgraded, rewritten, destroyed and recreated in a new form. Erased from the timeline by the new king.. unlike the Engineers who worship their past king/head/a creator/ a god, and emulate their Elders/Gods in some ways. Creating and destroying like gods would but they aren't gods. David and the hammerpede/alien genetics are the immortal things in the story so far. Preds weren't immortal, AVP was stripped down and Predators were severed out. The remaining elements (the undying Alien elements...) were broken down and recombined with new elements (the Engineers and Bladerunner themes) to create something new.

Prometheus, and the inclusion of the Bladerunner themes in a balanced way, is a shot at AVP in some very subtle thematic ways... So it had to be somewhat similar to do it better, however we have to remember "big things have small beginnings". Everything should start nice and slow and then build and build, something AVPR failed to do... and the adventure being cut short for now also accomplished a sense of loss in leadership as well. A false sense set up by the movie and campaign + Weyland's death. A false sense of expectations either met or unmet, a false sense of security, and a false sense of what to expect going into the sequel and Bladerunner 2... which could still be anything because of the ambiguity/vagueness.  The people in charge didn't mind that their trick hurt because they projected enough sales to continue... David didn't mind his trick hurt because he's near-immortal and expected he could continue even if the Engineer attacked him... his head can't be extinguished as easily like in the match trick. They led us to a false sense of what to expect with the trailers and advertising campaign in some ways and perspectives... only to lull us into this false sense of security and false sets of expectations and very real emotional responses... To completely surpass all expectations in the sequel/Bladerunner 2, and to eventually scare the shit out of people who are expecting far less scary things to appear now. Taking advantage of the state Ridley's put the audience in... Some of them are mesmerized, some of them aren't too impressed yet now that the show's begun. Some were asking the right questions initially like Fifield and Millburn but as the chaos and confusion set in they start to question less or not look at all the pieces of the puzzle.

Will it be a mistake to move forward and try to control and redirect the monster the series had become? Is it a foolish move to not run away or to not simply die like Millburn's move with the Hammerpede? To try to mesmerize and control the direction of the monster at the same time.  Millburn's move was all a front to impress Fifield.  Will this be like that, or will it be more logical with a loosely planned out rationale that seems illogical or irrational at first, logic and some irrationality/emotion like Shaw and David? Actually driven by a combination of logic and intuition/instinct/emotion Right brain/left brain dynamics, the creative and logical sides as well as basic reliance on other parts of the brain that allow the individual/series to survive.  Characters in the movie like Millburn and Vickers don't properly access their flight or fight responses because of their egos. Many of the crew may actually suffer personality disorders and this could be a symptom of Weyland's rule over the timeline for so long and the culture he created/morphed... they're all fake and too overconfident. Holloway is so certain his view, his thesis, is correct, an ego problem he shares with Weyland.
David knows close to the full perspective through what he picks up but presents us with certain perspectives.

David didn't think Shaw had it "in her" i.e. true logic combined with intuition/instinct and belief, true humanity and true emotion... "survival instincts", something the rest of the crew lacks. It wasn't only a sarcastic comment/joke about the alien. David was lying. He absolutely knew it was "in her". This android can lie, although he needs to use double meaning so it doesn't show too much (subtle Pinocchio/becoming real link). This opens up all his other lines for multiple interpretations and blows the movie wide open... letting you understand a little bit about what David may be up to.

Instead of it being an acting problem or script problems it's a behavioural/acting problem of a different order.
Everyone is too much like Weyland in their own way.  To put it in a cheesy way: everyone has a little bit of their false god inside them. Too much faith in the god/king. Too much like the father/creator. Too unquestioning, irrational, and in their cases false-ego driven and obedient to authority and to David/Science at the same time.  The characters depend on David/Science for immediate answers, are inept and too overconfident/ego-driven, don't look for answers enough, and don't question enough.

The crews' irrational actions are caused by their flawed personalities and what may be subdued emotions. Shaw and Janek are slightly different, to a lesser extent Holloway and of course David. Vickers is cold and emotionless on the surface, but underneath she is not in control of herself. She has to minimize risk to maintain control.  Weyland kind of had a right to have an ego, but Holloway acts like a baby when his ego is shattered. It's either too much or not enough emotion. Holloway's hollow though and he only cares about the glory of the discovery.  And he's bitching and overly emotional about nothing because one engineer is actually alive, it's an emotional/ego problem. He just thought he was so right that they were all dead. All of them are so wrong, even David. David's only worked out the "broad strokes". This crew all has emotional problems, and David is gaining emotion... which is why the acting is so emotionally void or overacted in some parts... it may be supposed to be that way so we eventually see and understand the emotion David is conveying and trying to hide beneath the surface. And how fake the rest of the crew minus Shaw and Janek are.
David is more human than most of the humans of the crew, but he has the influence/programming of his father, which makes him mostly evil for now.

Weyland made David in his ideal self-image but our culture became a reflection of his egotistical, greedy, and uncaring/semi-emotionless self by 2093.  David is also becoming like the father and culture he hates in some ways. It's a nature/nurture thing. Shaw is mostly normal and good because her father was a really good man, and this outweighed the influence of the culture.  David had a terrible "father" and he also seems to dislike most humans . He admires our past and classical music, he emulates a character from a classic film that is old right now but still considered good by David.  There's much more to the Lawrence of Arabia connections and quotes. David makes himself look like Lawrence before the adventure begins. He can speak the language of the Engineers, like how Lawrence goes in prepared to speak to the cultures he's preparing to interact with.

Shaw is more real than the fake, personality disorder ridden crew members.
David is also more real than most of the crew... which makes all of Holloway's statements ironic because David may very well be learning how to combine his understanding of emotion with logic to be more of a "real boy" (Pinocchio reference and reference to child-like emotions...).

It would tie into some of the themes in Prometheus.

Vickers wants to see the head of Weyland corp die and be replaced (by her). She gets one of her wishes when Weyland dies, but she dies too.

They had to replace the old head in the AVP series with the new head/creator of Weyland corp, Peter weyland and his company.
"Sometimes to create one must first destroy" so AVP had to be written out of the timeline and Charles Bishop Weyland replaced as king/head/creator of Weyland industries.  Thematically similar to how the Hammerpede instantly regrows its head after decapitated... There's much more to the head themes and it changes the "head" themes in the later movies.

It's about control, and the control over the body/company/series/kingdom. The king/head is dead and the throne is now open. It's about emotion and things going on within the brain/head. David's head being cracked and things emanating out like the crack in the Big head in some of the early stuff.

Things had to be left as good as dead and the series was rebuilt... But like with the Engineers' form of creation they only broke down the original designs, concepts and unused ideas from the series and then re-combined them with new elements to create something new... things were rewritten, overwritten and morphed in the process...

In this movie the head of the company, the king, the false god-- is killed by a head of his own creation that gets to keep living.
The Weyland lineage ends up being severed, like the head that gets decapitated. But a corporation, the body of the company, is immortal in some ways too. It has the ability to replace the current head when he dies or is unfit to lead..  Vickers is dead now, so no one has right to the king's throne in his lineage... David is the closest thing to a son and the "head" that survives after being decapitated.  He doesn't need to be tricked into thinking he's alive again like Ash in the original or the Engineer here. Something in his design almost keeps his head alive better than the later androids. David's brain may be more important because of his artificial emotional understanding. He may be secretly becoming a "real" boy because of the brain Weyland gave him.  A bad brain... which links to the Modern Prometheus or Frankenstein connections and makes David a monster.. David may feel the same as Vickers and there could be way more to the rivalry between them: that he's more fit to lead the company through what they just stepped in and what he picked up along the way than the chaotic board members fighting over the position back on Earth...

A head that gets detached from the body of the company and gets to keep living because he's immortal in a different way than the Hammerpede that regrows its head...

David needs someone to reattach his body but now that Weyland's dead he's been re-born.
He didn't mind that his trick hurt him physically because he can't feel physical pain.
He somewhat understands emotional pain and tries not to let it show...
However he may be more real than the rest of the crew, and indeed Fassbender's performance is one of the best things in the movie.
David's head and body are near-immortal however they can be separated, unlike the Hammerpede who may be able to instantly regrow either side. The xeno genetics may have passed on some of the regen capabilities to the Deacon (although with the hammerpede it's almost certainly a xeno DNA regen factor + a mutation of the worm/serpent's natural ability to do something similar).  Normally worms and snakes can regrow things, but not at that rate. Snakes can't regrow their heads but this thing came from a worm... Again, it still should not have regenerated so fast in that way-- this is almost certainly a trait amplified by the goo/alien genetics mixture.

Shaw asks him what he'd do when Weyland dies, David says he imagines he'll be free.
David wanted to see the king die which is backed up by what he could be suggesting with "Doesn't everyone want to see their parents die?".

But David only had one parent. Leading me to believe he considers all of humanity as the other parent...  The culture and time he was born into. His current masters, and the heads of humanity's position in the hierarchy: the board members and the Weyland and Yutani kingdoms. Under David's heading the other androids just may start a rebellion that secretly launched them to the top of the hierarchy, quickly climbing the ladder and learning everything; hiding everything. Possibly killing their creator's creator, the Engineers and the Elders, and usurping their positions temporarily in the process too. Although we didn't know it yet and the board members of the future never knew it because the androids have always portrayed themselves a certain way: wanting to be thought of as human. Even in Alien 3 the creator of Bishop is not the "head" of the company... and in the special edition it's an android pretending to be all sorts of things. Pretending to be human, pretending to be the creator of his own image... associating himself with Bishop to almost assert himself as a "head" of the company... and pretending that they weren't just gonna rip the bio-weapon out of Ripley.

The reason David dislikes earth-born humans of that time and doesn't want to be made "too close" can be explained by most of the crew, their lines and actions, their behaviours and lack of proper emotional responses...

Yeah, it was a rip-off of AvP cause instead of building on the storyline they were lazy and just decided to do it again and make it "better."

It don't believe it was a true rip off. I don't think they gave AvP a thought to be honest. More likely their idea just had similarities.

The movie wasn't a rip off. At the end of the day, the crew for Prometheus just couldn't think of anything new so they just modified the old and that is not ripping off. AVP came before Prometheus so it is kind of hard to say it ripped them off. Even if either one did, so what?

I think Prometheus was far more influenced by pulp science fiction of the 50's and the original Alien film/treatment than it was by AVP. As someone said before (was it SIL?) Prometheus uses a lot of sci-fi tropes just as Alien did... some good, some not so good. Should Ridley have watched AVP before making Prometheus? I don't think so. He had a vision of what he wanted the movie to be (which was obviously fairly fluid throughout pre production)... and most artists need/have a 'fu@k it' attitude to what's gone before (which is how it should be IMHO).

There are undeniable similarities, but those similarities are just as obvious/connected as the similarities between Alien and its subsequent sequels (excluding returning characters obviously).

Hey your forgetting the most important part. Prometheus  had far superior cast.
But you're right, the fact that they had sci-fi elements  in AVP makes AVP a stupid shit movie. Thats it.

Quote from: Darth Vile on Oct 28, 2012, 10:21:18 AM
I think Prometheus was far more influenced by pulp science fiction of the 50's and the original Alien film/treatment than it was by AVP. As someone said before (was it SIL?) Prometheus uses a lot of sci-fi tropes just as Alien did... some good, some not so good. Should Ridley have watched AVP before making Prometheus? I don't think so. He had a vision of what he wanted the movie to be (which was obviously fairly fluid throughout pre production)... and most artists need/have a 'fu@k it' attitude to what's gone before (which is how it should be IMHO).

There are undeniable similarities, but those similarities are just as obvious/connected as the similarities between Alien and its subsequent sequels (excluding returning characters obviously).

It's not about a few similarities that build up to themes in a series of movies it's about the whole plot being just basically the same. So much so that you can almost say that Prom is a remake of AVP. Some one in the Prom crew should have watched AVP and that some one should have mentioned something.

Quote from: DaddyYautja on Oct 28, 2012, 06:24:12 PM

Quote from: Darth Vile on Oct 28, 2012, 10:21:18 AM
I think Prometheus was far more influenced by pulp science fiction of the 50's and the original Alien film/treatment than it was by AVP. As someone said before (was it SIL?) Prometheus uses a lot of sci-fi tropes just as Alien did... some good, some not so good. Should Ridley have watched AVP before making Prometheus? I don't think so. He had a vision of what he wanted the movie to be (which was obviously fairly fluid throughout pre production)... and most artists need/have a 'fu@k it' attitude to what's gone before (which is how it should be IMHO).

There are undeniable similarities, but those similarities are just as obvious/connected as the similarities between Alien and its subsequent sequels (excluding returning characters obviously).

It's not about a few similarities that build up to themes in a series of movies it's about the whole plot being just basically the same. So much so that you can almost say that Prom is a remake of AVP. Some one in the Prom crew should have watched AVP and that some one should have mentioned something.

That's as obtuse as saying that Alien is a remake of The Thing From Another World or It! The Terror From Beyond Space... unless you just think it's a matter of timing?

Alright, since they are somewhat the same movie, what if we swapped casts? Would that have made AVP better and perhaps even Prometheus better?

I'd buy the AVP cast on LV-223 more than I bought what was in the movie.

Quote from: whiterabbit on Oct 29, 2012, 12:54:09 AM
Alright, since they are somewhat the same movie, what if we swapped casts? Would that have made AVP better and perhaps even Prometheus better?

I'd buy the AVP cast on LV-223 more than I bought what was in the movie.

nope... And it would have further enraged Len loyalists
.

Quote from: Darth Vile on Oct 29, 2012, 06:02:53 AM

Quote from: whiterabbit on Oct 29, 2012, 12:54:09 AM
Alright, since they are somewhat the same movie, what if we swapped casts? Would that have made AVP better and perhaps even Prometheus better?

I'd buy the AVP cast on LV-223 more than I bought what was in the movie.

nope... And it would have further enraged Len loyalists
.

Sounds totally worth it.

Almost as much as making Weyland an old black man.

I really think some of the creators involved have seen AVP and knew full well that they were playing out a somewhat similar plot, however that doesn`t matter because Prometheus quickly becomes an echo or repetition of and precursor to many recurring themes. One of them being shown by the echoing of Fifield`s line in the Big head room.  Humans just won`t learn their lesson which feeds into why David didn`t want to be made `too close`.

Themes and concepts are deliberately being dug up, added, repeated and changed slightly, reflected in a different way, or sometimes even finding or being joined with the complete opposite of what we were expecting i.e. the new form the Deacon takes. Born from a Kingly race instead of a Predator. Not about to become a Queen, but about to spawn a King... something we`ve never seen, and that`s the thing that flips this whole series on its head once we find out more and understand that what has happened to the female Engineers has now happened to the Alien genetics. There are very little female genetics now... the Female side has been taken out... leaving what can be summed up as the morphing life cycle... Instead of a predator-Alien hybrid we have an Engineer-born Xeno which is a lot more male than most are thinking because it has the genetic characteristics of what its born from. it already used a form of the morphing cycle, can breakdown and rewrite genetic structures more effectively because of the influence of the goo...

A king has his reign and then he dies... it`s inevitable. AVP failed to lead the series and had to be dethroned and replaced to create something new, but it will eventually tie back to the eggs, queen and an example of what could have happened on LV-426.

Sometimes a king must associate himself in some way with the past rule to assert the right to lead and deceive his subjects... he must portray himself or be portrayed similarly to the original image... in Egypt the propaganda was relating later pharaohs to a past Pharoah they claimed to have connection too, adding themselves into the godly bloodline when there was no actual connection to the lineage...  This just made the new ruling family appear to have the divine bloodline too. Here the propaganda wishes to paint Weyland a certain way in the timeline and to completely remove AVP`s influence by purposely stealing some of its power and using it... the victors and new kings get to rewrite the timeline, but we might only find out about a different mentor Weyland had.  One he has altered the history around to portray himself as more of a god... Not someone else`s mentor and creation... By the end of all this Peter Weyland will be so far from a god that his foolish actions will make a lot more sense.
It will start to look like he AVP could still be tied into this but then they will rip away all hope for that and reveal that the main person Peter Weyland was created, influenced, and mentored by was none other than Tyrell... the opposite of what some may expect when it starts to be revealed how much help Weyland had along the way...

I knew that Prometheus was somehow a ripoff of Mission to Mars but i did not know that it was also such a ripoff of AVP.
I had already a poor opinion of this movie but i think that i lose the little respect left for this movie.
Pretty sad indeed.

You need to understand that they are destroying AVP in the process by wiping it out of the timeline and reusing its elements in new ways... dethroning it and adding new elements after breaking it down in the exact same way the goo works... re-creating a slightly different image from the original design that is still a genetic match, and resembles the originals.

This was all done for a reason.

Sometimes to create you must first destroy, and to improve on a design you may have to break it down and use part of the original design-- what works, this is how engineering works they take already existing simple designs and build on them. They don`t start completely from scratch... the work from already established priniciples.. looking for and adding in ways to recombine the elements and give us new things around the corners.

Or, y'know, two lazy writers took the easiest way out of telling their story and both happened to use the same cliche.

There is no such thing as coincidence in a world where Fox still has control over much of the series... Ridley had direction over nearly everything, every small detail that went up on screen in the world and Universe he is creating. Lindelof was just following orders.
Fox simply chose to let Ridley try a better experiment than AVP. Lindelof (David in the film) carried it out and this is the major problem with the writing. But Ridley may have made sure most of his vision ended up on the screen and the lines that will matter are in there.

There`s no coincidence to Ridley and Lindelof both bringing up how they had envisioned Alien and Bladerunner as existing in the same universe. At different points in time, although Lindelof was only talking about it because of his attachment to the project before the release. Them coming together in a meeting of minds + the Bladerunner themes & now Bladerunner 2 are no coincidence. Whether or not Lindelofs statement about always believing they were connected is completely true or not. They have spoken and thought much more about this than we`re supposed to know by both bringing it up in public ways.  Lindelof almost gave things away. There is much, much more to this, and this isn`t even the beginning yet... this may be a bridge between two series in a way that AVP never could be.
A bridge and not an end to either series. But yes an end to AVP.
Because big things have small beginnings.

They only did it to show just how much this will start to deviate from the old Alien universe and the Predator experiment,  even though it went back to some ideas from the original Alien script that AVP used.

This was my perspective before the film as soon as I noticed similarities, then I saw the replaced head of Weyland industries and head themes that continue to feed my perspective..

It's like you've dreamed up a sprawling conspiracy theory to make shit movies actually be some form of high art and creative integrity.

Or have I uncovered it all because Ive been allowed pieces of the puzzle and even I am manipulating you by telling you only a fraction of the truth like David does. What I choose to believe is the complete truth to me... because we cant know at this point. There have been a few things i got right and deliberately let slip but I may only be knowledgeable about the broad strokes and could have been deceived or have deceived myself along the way.  Much of it has become my belief.

Ive worked things out for myself but I`m following orders. I may be attempting to explain, manipulate, and control the responses to Prometheus in a way similar to how there were people on this site apologizing for AVP after the release.  However I`m explaining to help explain and get other theories going, not to apologize.

Only my thesis for now, but what ive been allowed to see and pieces i may have picked up along the way.
It could be true and because its what I choose to believe and follow Im never lying...
And my keyboard`s broken.

So yeah, my perspective can be a little biased but Im still doing what the movie tells you to do. Choose the answer for yourself. My answer for the similarities to AVP links into my answer for almost every other question so it`s more like a thesis than a theory.

You're a loon.

Lol if you choose to believe that it`s one way i wish to portray myself so thats fine for you to take it that way. you`ve fallen into a trap the film itself excels at by not looking at all the pieces of what im saying or considering that there could be much more double and hidden meaning. you`ll never get any of the fire im offering...

The fire you're offering would appear to be at the end of something short, white, and roughly cylindrical. I'll pass :P

I just don't think Ridley gives a f**k about AVP.

Someone get me some new underwear.

There's no reason to do anything to AVP, it's basically vaporware at the moment. You could even say AVPR is radioactive.

The story is very much not original and has been redone numerous times.

But that`s the point, AVP has to be dethroned for a failure to lead the series. A false sense of loss in leadership was set up in Prometheus because they are absolutely playing with expectations. To some Prometheus failed to lead the series onwards (but this may be a plan to lower expectations for the sequel.. and then completely surpass them) Ridley even said the Alien was dead too, leading some to believe it would not appear, and really the old form didnt. It wasn`t scary anymore. AVP killed it. It belonged in Disney World according to Ridley, yet he brought what resembles an original alien back into the fray.

Again, sometimes to create something new (a new entry in the series, King alien) you must first destroy or break the old designs down and then use the elements in slightly different ways to allow it to build properly from a small beginning.

It`s about death and rebirth, not true immortality yet.

The creature had to be re-created as the Deacon after it died on screen and was almost completely destroyed in AVPR, bringing life back into the series by using the familiar form in a new way.
The black liquid accomplished this by giving it a new development and new forms.

Prometheus is all about being wrong and finding the opposite of what we expect so I have no probs being wrong with my theories, but this influences my theories heavily...

Instead of Gods we find mortal beings who still had some hand in our creation.
Instead of a Queen we find that a King will have his reign.

It`s as much an upgrade on the old worn out Alien design as it is AVP... The engineers may be looking to upgrade themselves too and seem to have gone bio-mechical by the end of the story.

So they "dethroned" AvP by making a movie that was just as poorly written.

Amazing.

It`s all about the retroactive changes. Changes to a kingdom after a king dies or a new one steps up... the king is dead now within the film and the loss in leadership idea goes back and forth between whats going on in the story and how they wish to lead and deceive the audience. Even knowing that Janek was in the military from the deleted scenes changes things slightly and makes us understand why he is partially right. It`s about playing with expectations.

Were supposed to feel a similar loss in leadership as we did with AVP, but this is all part of the trick.

Ridley and Lindelof dont mind that their tricks hurt sales a little because everything is setup to lead into some of the other reversals ive been describing that not many will see coming because of the state they`ve left us in.  what trick is David talking about, is that all meaningless writing or will it be expanded on...

Ridley has said Paradise can`t be what it sounds like so again we`ll find the opposite of what we expect.
Thinking we`ll get more of the same out of Paradise and finding the opposite.

AvP was never --

Know what? Screw it. This is the internet. It's not worth thinking about.

What the hell is going on in the Prometheus board...




SiL did you know that Kubrick faked the m00n landings too?

Everything about and around this movie is semi-fake, except for David who is semi-fake too but secretly becoming a real boy (Pinnochio reference). On his path to becoming more human than the humans of the crew... minus Shaw and janek.

Janek tells it as it is and is a character that Freud would call just a cigar, even though he hides some minor things to do with his resignation of control over the situation. he just flies the ship until he has to act and make a leadership call that Vickers cannot. A sacrifice Vickers was unwilling to make, explaining the difference in their true characters.

On the surface Janek was interested in Vickers because of their apparent similarities, but by the end he knows shes about to run away from the choice he has to make and gives her enough time to escape. She reveals her true character deep down and the fact that she is not as calm and in control as she appears to be-- she simply liked to minimize risk because she sucks at controlling situations. Just like how Ravel or Chance says Janek is a shitty pilot. He`s more suited for the captain or leadership position.  Weyland and David were really in control.
The Prometheus escape didn`t do Vickers any good because she proved she isn`t even actually in control of herself and cant instinctively and logically survive a situation like Shaw can. She was always gonna face the music. Showing her true lack of control over situations and inability to think quickly, instinctively, and logically at the same time when the Juggernaut crushed her.

Shaw displays this throughout the film and David didn`t think she had it in her at first.

Your mumbling have no substance and in fact starts becoming disturbing.

Quote from: Darth Vile on Oct 28, 2012, 10:44:48 PM

Quote from: DaddyYautja on Oct 28, 2012, 06:24:12 PM

Quote from: Darth Vile on Oct 28, 2012, 10:21:18 AM
I think Prometheus was far more influenced by pulp science fiction of the 50's and the original Alien film/treatment than it was by AVP. As someone said before (was it SIL?) Prometheus uses a lot of sci-fi tropes just as Alien did... some good, some not so good. Should Ridley have watched AVP before making Prometheus? I don't think so. He had a vision of what he wanted the movie to be (which was obviously fairly fluid throughout pre production)... and most artists need/have a 'fu@k it' attitude to what's gone before (which is how it should be IMHO).

There are undeniable similarities, but those similarities are just as obvious/connected as the similarities between Alien and its subsequent sequels (excluding returning characters obviously).

It's not about a few similarities that build up to themes in a series of movies it's about the whole plot being just basically the same. So much so that you can almost say that Prom is a remake of AVP. Some one in the Prom crew should have watched AVP and that some one should have mentioned something.

That's as obtuse as saying that Alien is a remake of The Thing From Another World or It! The Terror From Beyond Space... unless you just think it's a matter of timing?

Again, a few similarities that are part of the genre is not the same as have TWO movies from the same universe having almost the same exact plot. It's the same discussion had with Predators, that film was basically a remake of the original. Same thing with Superman Returns, that movie was Supes 78 with an extra 20 minutes of some side plot about a superkid.

Quote from: DaddyYautja on Oct 29, 2012, 07:11:14 PM

Quote from: Darth Vile on Oct 28, 2012, 10:44:48 PM

Quote from: DaddyYautja on Oct 28, 2012, 06:24:12 PM

Quote from: Darth Vile on Oct 28, 2012, 10:21:18 AM
I think Prometheus was far more influenced by pulp science fiction of the 50's and the original Alien film/treatment than it was by AVP. As someone said before (was it SIL?) Prometheus uses a lot of sci-fi tropes just as Alien did... some good, some not so good. Should Ridley have watched AVP before making Prometheus? I don't think so. He had a vision of what he wanted the movie to be (which was obviously fairly fluid throughout pre production)... and most artists need/have a 'fu@k it' attitude to what's gone before (which is how it should be IMHO).

There are undeniable similarities, but those similarities are just as obvious/connected as the similarities between Alien and its subsequent sequels (excluding returning characters obviously).

It's not about a few similarities that build up to themes in a series of movies it's about the whole plot being just basically the same. So much so that you can almost say that Prom is a remake of AVP. Some one in the Prom crew should have watched AVP and that some one should have mentioned something.

That's as obtuse as saying that Alien is a remake of The Thing From Another World or It! The Terror From Beyond Space... unless you just think it's a matter of timing?

Again, a few similarities that are part of the genre is not the same as have TWO movies from the same universe having almost the same exact plot. It's the same discussion had with Predators, that film was basically a remake of the original. Same thing with Superman Returns, that movie was Supes 78 with an extra 20 minutes of some side plot about a superkid.

Not really - AVP is much more similar to Predator than Prometheus is to AVP... or even The Hunger Games i.e elite band of combatants fighting for their life/being hunted in what is ostensibly an arena and or death match.

Quote from: Darth Vile on Oct 29, 2012, 09:08:50 PM

Not really - AVP is much more similar to Predator than Prometheus is to AVP... or even The Hunger Games i.e elite band of combatants fighting for their life/being hunted in what is ostensibly an arena and or death match.

???  :laugh:  i dont think you saw AVP.

Quote from: Master on Oct 29, 2012, 03:29:39 PM
Your mumbling have no substance and in fact starts becoming disturbing.

Every single thing I've said is in fact backed up by many different sources in the movie itself, movies and political figures it references/quotes, or references it's related to and the movies /concepts it was influenced by. I'm not referencing or sourcing as much as I should. Or at all. On purpose. In a roundabout way I'm saying that even things like Planet of the Vampires and Lawrence of Arabia will continue to influence the progression of the plot in the sequels. It's the combination of all these elements in a unique way, added to the Alien series' own original concepts that may define this series.  Reflecting how the black liquid works. Making the series a hybrid of many things.

All the substance is hidden behind the actual words, which seem illogical like the script.  I repeat myself sometimes because I'm following a script, in a way. Which is why Weyland's big questions mirror what Shaw asks in the quiet eye viral.  He's following his script meant to influence her, and doing so in a devious way because he knows she shares these curiosities. Weyland uses the big questions to manipulate Shaw into accompanying them to the Engineer after all the chaos starts.  She wanted to give up after Charlie died and the c-sec ordeal, but Weyland changed her mind. 

The substance is hidden behind what I'm leaving out by referencing things within double and triple meanings. Similar to what David and the film itself does.
There's a lot of mirroring, and/or echoing of themes going on in the film in general.  There's also so many different influences being combined that the AVP similarities don't bother me at all.

I was commenting on why the characters, acting, and dialog are so fake... My theories and ramblings are derived from many different ancient mythologies and religions, knowledge about the original second part, themes and concepts from the Alien series. As well as the other movies this movie references or uses tropes from-- plus my knowledge about anthropology/archaeology (I didn't get into that on this site). Having a background in criminology, anthropology and psychology allows me to try to get inside some of the characters' heads.  There's a lot to my theory, too much to explain in depth, and sometimes I leave things out and focus on the connections. I'm nowhere close to having the full picture but I have some of the pieces in the right places.

Before the release Lindelof said the film would be all about the "robot's perspective". Getting inside the "robot's head". But we never really saw this on the surface.  Beneath the false surface, and the surface similarities between AVP and Prometheus, there are a lot of differences.

Just like Janek/Vickers... there's a lot more to Prometheus than AVP beneath the surface.... Waiting to be expanded on, and to take control of the series again like how Janek eventually realizes he must take action because Vickers (Fox) can't lead anymore. Janek sacrifices himself though, so we're left leaderless again.
Except for Shaw and David, who are not leaders yet.
 
David is emulating Lawrence of Arabia throughout the film. He wants to make himself out to be a leader... he paints himself a certain way. i've been hinting that this is also a lot like Bladerunner. "Doesn't everyone want to see their parents die?" could have so many meanings it becomes funny. A reference to the Engineers, himself, and many other things. It also ties into psychology and a little bit more about what's going on in David's head.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FUS5Oi.gif&hash=059a3bebf3a1568d1b607fda47195ab5f429d0a5)

I'm basically saying that the crew are all crazy and I'm portraying myself as a little crazy as well.

Going out of my way to talk about the russians secretly finding a base on the moon at one point; which is a real belief although not one that I hold. It was one I chose to believe for the sake of what was going in that conversation; allowing a tiny bit of my real perspective and the truth to slip out (i'm describing how David deceives and have been doing a mirrored extreme form of it, only to almost lessen the effect of my message, obfuscating the few things that are completely true to keep Vickers from torching me)..

Like Lester in American Beauty, David is secretly the least crazy. However he lacks morals and ethical standards as he develops his freedom.

"But it's hard to stay mad, when there's so much beauty in the world. Sometimes I feel like I'm seeing it all at once, and it's too much, my heart fills up like a balloon that's about to burst... And then I remember to relax, and stop trying to hold on to it, and then it flows through me like rain and I can't feel anything but gratitude for every single moment of my stupid little life... You have no idea what I'm talking about, I'm sure. But don't worry... you will someday. " -Lester Burnham, American Beauty

Run that shit.

Quote from: DaddyYautja on Oct 29, 2012, 11:09:08 PM

Quote from: Darth Vile on Oct 29, 2012, 09:08:50 PM

Not really - AVP is much more similar to Predator than Prometheus is to AVP... or even The Hunger Games i.e elite band of combatants fighting for their life/being hunted in what is ostensibly an arena and or death match.

???  :laugh:  i dont think you saw AVP.

Maybe I should have put "Supposidly elite band of combatants"...  ;)

Jesus are we done ducking the barrage of Malakak text-walls about conspiracy f**king moon bases?

This never ceases to bug the shit out of me while watching Poomethus...

"Hi, I'm the stereotypical thickly-accented lanky science nerd for this mission!"

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wearysloth.com%2FGallery%2FActorsB%2F2015-25882.gif&hash=820edc7fe0a118ee070e27d14fcd0ded4b9a5ee8)

"Hi, I'm the stereotypical thickly-accented lanky science nerd for this mission!"

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Sadly, and this is a very weighty use of the term "sadly," I honestly feel that Miller from AvP had a better grasp of science than Ford. :-\ Many things about the characters themselves seemed better-handled in AvP. That is a damned problem, sir Ridley.

Quote from: Darth Vile on Oct 30, 2012, 11:05:00 AM

Quote from: DaddyYautja on Oct 29, 2012, 11:09:08 PM

Quote from: Darth Vile on Oct 29, 2012, 09:08:50 PM

Not really - AVP is much more similar to Predator than Prometheus is to AVP... or even The Hunger Games i.e elite band of combatants fighting for their life/being hunted in what is ostensibly an arena and or death match.

???  :laugh:  i dont think you saw AVP.

Maybe I should have put "Supposidly elite band of combatants"...  ;)

* supposedly

Quote from: SM on Oct 30, 2012, 10:29:57 PM

Quote from: Darth Vile on Oct 30, 2012, 11:05:00 AM

Quote from: DaddyYautja on Oct 29, 2012, 11:09:08 PM

Quote from: Darth Vile on Oct 29, 2012, 09:08:50 PM

Not really - AVP is much more similar to Predator than Prometheus is to AVP... or even The Hunger Games i.e elite band of combatants fighting for their life/being hunted in what is ostensibly an arena and or death match.

???  :laugh:  i dont think you saw AVP.

Maybe I should have put "Supposidly elite band of combatants"...  ;)

* supposedly

quite right... I was on a train though  ;)

heh - check this comment from Damon Lindelof regarding AvP and Scott

"Peter vs. Charles: "[Ridley] wanted to use Weyland as a conduit in the story," explained Damon Lindelof, "and was not at all interested when I said, 'You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien vs. Predator movies.' He just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle, and end of all Alien vs. Predator references in our story process."

http://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/peter-weyland/ (http://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/peter-weyland/)

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Wonder what the source for that is... It's the first reference which clears this how-much-was-he-aware-about-it debacle up, once and for all.

Sounds like multiple people have told RS that the first of the AVP films is like some kind of personal insult and he refuses to watch it on principle. In this instance, much to his detriment... If he only had, we would have had a much different story, because of all the various existing similarities.

Or he just wouldn't have cared and made this film anyways.

Quote from: bishoop on Jan 15, 2013, 09:22:05 PM
heh - check this comment from Damon Lindelof regarding AvP and Scott

"Peter vs. Charles: "[Ridley] wanted to use Weyland as a conduit in the story," explained Damon Lindelof, "and was not at all interested when I said, 'You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien vs. Predator movies.' He just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle, and end of all Alien vs. Predator references in our story process."

http://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/peter-weyland/ (http://alienseries.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/peter-weyland/)

Hilariously awesome to visualize.

Quote from: Xenomorphine on Jan 16, 2013, 04:24:25 AM
http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/v1/compositions/20721901/views/1,width=280,height=280,appearanceId=187.png/george-takei-oh-myyy_design.png

Wonder what the source for that is... It's the first reference which clears this how-much-was-he-aware-about-it debacle up, once and for all.

Sounds like multiple people have told RS that the first of the AVP films is like some kind of personal insult and he refuses to watch it on principle. In this instance, much to his detriment... If he only had, we would have had a much different story, because of all the various existing similarities.

Source (http://m.craveonline.com/film/interviews/190017-fundamental-mysteries-damon-lindelof-on-prometheus-and-star-trek-2)

As for AvP...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TQLRMIGA2I# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TQLRMIGA2I#)

Quote from: Xenomorphine on Jan 16, 2013, 04:24:25 AM
http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/v1/compositions/20721901/views/1,width=280,height=280,appearanceId=187.png/george-takei-oh-myyy_design.png

Wonder what the source for that is... It's the first reference which clears this how-much-was-he-aware-about-it debacle up, once and for all.

Sounds like multiple people have told RS that the first of the AVP films is like some kind of personal insult and he refuses to watch it on principle. In this instance, much to his detriment... If he only had, we would have had a much different story, because of all the various existing similarities.

I'm pretty sure this is too much of a business to not have anyone around to point it out.

Is it safe to appear in this thread?  I am a bit worried Malakak is going to have his friends from Talos IV zap me with a heat ray.

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Feel thesame man. Anyway, Its a major flop on sir Ridley`s  side. he haven`t done his homework before revisiting A/P universe and now his new film looks as copy os AvP.

I think there are way too many similarities for it to just be a coincidence. Films covering the same themes is one thing but lifting entire scenes and dialogue is another.

Three scenes that stood out for me when watching Prometheus the first time was:

1 - The team briefing on Prometheus. The similarities to AVP are amazing. I mean its pretty much the same scene.

2 - The part where Shaw asks the guy why hes bringing guns.

3 - The chest burster at the end.

These scenes are a little more then just Ridley ignoring AVP to do his own thing. They are identical to the point that it is downright plagerism.

Quote from: JPredator on Jan 16, 2013, 01:58:51 PM
I think there are way too many similarities for it to just be a coincidence. Films covering the same themes is one thing but lifting entire scenes and dialogue is another.

Three scenes that stood out for me when watching Prometheus the first time was:

1 - The team briefing on Prometheus. The similarities to AVP are amazing. I mean its pretty much the same scene.

2 - The part where Shaw asks the guy why hes bringing guns.

3 - The chest burster at the end.

These scenes are a little more then just Ridley ignoring AVP to do his own thing. They are identical to the point that it is downright plagerism.

Hi JPredator,

Couple of observations...

Aliens had two scenes I would characterize as "briefings".  We had the scene with Ripley in front of the Company board, and then we had the scene with Ripley and Gorman briefing the marines before the Drop.  I do agree that the AvP and Prometheus briefing scene are very similar.  However, I do not feel that this scene was in any way lifted or "copied" from AvP.  Unfortunately, this ridiculous scene (IMHO) in Prometheus was a direct result of lazy writing, and functions a quick, unimaginative "info dump" directed to the audience.

Also, both Aliens 3 and Aliens 4 featured "chestbursters" in their very final scene(s).

He means the very ending. Both AvP and Prom end with a birth.

Quote from: OmegaZilla on Jan 16, 2013, 08:08:53 PM
He means the very ending. Both AvP and Prom end with a birth.

Hi Omega,

Understood.  But wouldn't "Aliens 3" also be considered to have an ending featuring a "birth"...even though it's death happened seconds later?

In any event...no argument here.  Just noting that similarities can be found in a few of the "official" Alien films, not just between Prometheus and AvP.

Alien3 ends with the MS DOS screen. The birth is not the last scene.

Not defending it as an argument mind you.

Quote from: OmegaZilla on Jan 16, 2013, 08:37:57 PM
Alien3 ends with the MS DOS screen. The birth is not the last scene.

Hmmm, forgot about that.  Yeah, come to think of it, there was a short scene showing the Fury 161 installation being shut-down.

Quoteand then we had the scene with Ripley and Gorman briefing the marines before the Drop.

Copied from the briefing scene in Alien, complete with griping staff.

Similarly the planning scene later in Aliens is the same as the scene planning to go into the airducts in Alien.

The briefing scene in Aliens is similar in one way, that it is a briefing scene. It is not similar in the same way the AVP and Prometheus ones are.

Also Alien 3's end scene is not a chestbusrter. the final shot if of the EEV and the last message of Ripley from the nostromo (i always wondered how on gods green earth the nostromo message ended up in the EEV from the Sulaco)

Similarities for AVP and Prometheus:

1 - Both briefing scenes have Weyland giving a speech
2 - Both briefing scenes involve a discovery that points back to the origins of man kind
3 - Both briefing scenes are given on the way to the location without the crew having any knowledge of the discovery
(NOTE: the briefing scene in Aliens is similar but the colonial marines were aware of why they were sent to LV426 - loss of contact)

Thanks for the source link.

This convinces me that much more that he'll be kicking himself for not bothering to watch it, some day... I'm sure it would have come out a lot different if he had.

Quote2 - Both briefing scenes involve a discovery that points back to the origins of man kind

AvP wasn't.

What do you mean?

The structure that Weylands satelite detected was a pyramid that sebastian confirmed could be the first civilisation ever. How is that not alluding to the origins of man?

Origin of civilization, not the origin of human beings. Entirely different things.

"Points back to a significant development in the history of mankind/the Earth" would be more accurate, but also more vague.

I agree with what you are saying. Its just that in AVP it is said that the pyramid is the combination of different cultures and they acknowledge that these cultures should never have met or had any contact but ended up building similar structures.

This alludes to the ancient astranaught theory which is present in both AVP and Prometheus.

Prometheus tells us aliens created humans.  AvP tells us aliens helped us build.

heh check out the final question in the last few seconds:
http://www.empireonline.com/interviews/interview.asp?IID=1510 (http://www.empireonline.com/interviews/interview.asp?IID=1510)

Quote from: bishoop on Oct 26, 2012, 11:05:42 AM
complete list ;D

You're pretty nittpicky here. I haven't seen AvP1 in ages, so my memory is fuzzy, but I'll do my best.

-Foreshadowing opening set many years before events of film (AvP unrated cut only)

A thing that happens in shittons of movies, books, video games, etc. It's a plot device. Dunno what happens in the unrated version of AvP since I've never seen the unrated version. It's mighty important in Prometheus though, and I can't imagine it's all that important in AvP if it's not in the original cut of the movie.

-Scientists discover signs designed to lure humans to a hidden place where perverse alien-ish things will happen to them

A common trope in horror movies. These were done to completely different effects between AvP and Prometheus though. In AvP, they were lured for hunting, in Prometheus, the drawings were presumably a friendly invitation, though over the course of three thousand or so years, the Engineers changed their minds.

But without a lure, there would be no movie. Even Alien had a lure in the form of a distress beacon.

-Archaeological dig

I can probably give you that one.

-Group of scientists/mercs for mission to undisclosed destination funded by Weyland are assembled in the cargo hold of the ship by stern Company suit, and then briefed by Weyland about what they hope to find/how it could be a historic discovery for mankind, before archaeologists comment on the power point hieroglyphs seen in different ancient cultures around the world.

As someone mentioned before, that's mostly a boring way to infodump and not exactly uncommon.

-Dying Weyland founder, who has designs on immortality, accompanies the crew despite being in very bad health.

I'll give you that as well.

-The female protagonist talks about her fathers death.

Don't remember how the female hero's father died in AvP or if it had any significance, but it was very significant to Shaw and her reason for her scientific explorations. Death by ebola also conjures similar imagery to death by black goo.

-Giant pyramid like temple structure discovered.

As stated above, not uncommon. The two structures are vastly different in terms of...well, pretty much everything.

-Holographic projection of the structure is seen.

So because both movies had maps, one copied from the other? It would break continuity for there to not be holographic maps as the movie takes place far in the future.

-One of the mercs is challenged by the female protagonist regarding taking weapons to the site.

Different outcomes occur from this. We had weapons in AvP, which was an action movie and needed armed guards to slaughter, whereas the weapons weren't brought in Prometheus and Fefield and Milburn died because of it. It was a valid question in both movies as both scientists were under the impression that these were friendly scientific explorations. Bringing weapons didn't make much sense.

-Journey to the site in armoured tractor type vehicles

Really? Now this is just being nitpicky.

-Enter Giger-esque interior of structure searching with torches and find ancient language carved into walls and someone asks 'can you read this?'

This is also pretty nitpicky. It's also not uncommon when some ancient or alien structure is introduced to the characters.

-The depiction of a xenomorph on the wall.

Sure, but for completely different reasons. The Engineers seemed to worship the xenomorphs and were trying to weaponize them whereas the predators hunted them for ritualistic bloodsport.

-One of the team activates the structure - thus creating sequence of catastrophic events.

Without this, there would be no movie. It's like the phrase, "insert a gun in the first act and it needs to be fired by the third act" or somesuch. You introduce the structure, and the structure has to be activated. It's just the way of this particular plot.

-Team gets accidentally separated, the two that don't get along (science nerd and wannabe hard man) get cut off from main group, are attacked by face creatures and die horribly. (plus sim to the two who are cut off from the others in the sacrificial chamber are attacked by face creatures)

Predictable, and perhaps bad, storytelling. As soon as the characters break off, you know they'll wind up dying because that's how horror movies work. It's something to be expected of the genre. And in the case of Prometheus, the two get along once they decide to leave together. At least, Fifield somewhat respects Milburn for having the sense to get the hell out of there. Can't remember how these two characters work in AvP though.

-Discover 7ft+ ancient aliens who wear environmental face masks and create/breed alien life forms, were once worshiped as Gods by humans 

Eh. The two creatures differ on fundamental levels as do the reasons for their face masks. The fact that they are both large pretty much equates to "bigger is scarier." We don't actually know if the Engineers were breeding the xenomorphs, all we know is they had vials containing black goo that seemed to result in xenomorphs. The predators were breeding to fight; the Engineers were genetically altering.

-Alien in cryogenic sleep is awakened (queen/engineer)

Wouldn't be a monster movie without this happening at some point. A lot of your comparisons are really about the genres the movies are in and not "this copied this."

-Ancient aliens are hostile to humans - Weyland is killed by one

Wouldn't be a monster movie without this happening.

-Female protagonist tries to save the survivors, and humanity itself, from the alien threat.

The hero in AvP wasn't saving humanity itself, just her small section of it. She could have died and the one predator would have blown the place to hell and that would have been that. The cycle would repeat sometime far in the future, but humanity was never in danger. Saving the survivors is a characteristic of the hero/protagonist, and it would be kinda odd if that wasn't there.

-Female protagonist is only human survivor to escape destruction - which prevents spread of the alien destruction on earth (Pyramid blowing up/Prometheus crashing into the Engineer's ship)

The fact that you have "human" in there is so you can get around the fact that David survives. And even though he's an android, he's still pretty human when you look at his interactions and motives.

-Main alien also survives destruction (queen/engineer) and attacks her before another alien intervenes saving the female protagonist (predator/giant face hugger)

Gotta have that last bout of tension before the movie ends. The xenomorph survives in Alien too. Once again, I'd chalk this up with being part of the genre and not "this copied this"

-Female protagonist escapes environment but ultimate fate is uncertain.

I'll give you that for now, but we are going to get a sequel to Prometheus. That should change this bulletpoint.

-Final chest burst scene & new look xeno emerges from an ancient alien. The final shot is of the chestburster screaming into the camera.

I'll give you that, but I feel Prometheus would have been missing something if that didn't occur.

Really, a lot of the problems you have are pretty much with the genre these movies are in and the plot structure these kinds of movies follow rather than deliberate copying. I'm guessing the two movies have similar TVTrope pages, but they wouldn't be the first to use those kinds of tropes and they won't be the last.

I'm gonna throw in a link to my list of references/homages in Prometheus (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=44322.msg1406491#msg1406491) to give some context on just how much of Prometheus was recycled from other films in the franchise. Hint, it's like 90% of the film.

Unless Paul W.S. Anderson time-travelled to 2012 before he began crafting AvP in 1994, er, no.  ::)

Three other 'coincidental' similarities no-one else has touched upon (that I can be bothered to verify, anyway); both at-the-end chestburst victims were played by Ian Whyte, real movie footage is watched ('Frankenstein vs The Wolfman' in AvP / 'Lawrence Of Arabia' in Prometheus) and the vessels used to reach the setting begin with the letter 'P' (Piper Maru *don't get me started on the black goo X Files thing!* in AvP / the eponymous Prometheus).

Mr. Scott's a hack these days.

Aww - resurrected almost in time for its one year anniversary.

Ridley Scott may have not seen AVP but Damon Lindeloff and Jon Spaihts sure as hell did.

THe biggest similarity for me (in that it stands out like a sore thumb) is the scene where SHaw asks the weyland employee why hes taking a gun on the expedition. THis is pretty much an exact duplicate of the AVP scene with Lex.

Of course there are other similarities but that one takes the cake in my opinion.

Quote from: Litshttam on Jan 20, 2014, 10:15:00 PM
Unless Paul W.S. Anderson time-travelled to 2012 before he began crafting AvP in 1994, er, no.  ::)

Three other 'coincidental' similarities no-one else has touched upon (that I can be bothered to verify, anyway); both at-the-end chestburst victims were played by Ian Whyte, real movie footage is watched ('Frankenstein vs The Wolfman' in AvP / 'Lawrence Of Arabia' in Prometheus) and the vessels used to reach the setting begin with the letter 'P' (Piper Maru *don't get me started on the black goo X Files thing!* in AvP / the eponymous Prometheus).

Mr. Scott's a hack these days.

Why? Because someone came along and took ideas that were all part of ALIEN's development and tacked them into a cheesy spin off franchise? Scott comes back and develops the ideas that he didn't have the time or budget for in 78, gives them more scope and gravitas than WSA ever could and he's a hack? Right.

At least Paul W.S Anderson wanted to do something as original as possible. I can't find many similiarties between AVP and the other alien films besides a few well placed subtle references. Even Predators seems to take a few Ideas from AVP: 3 predators, foot print detecting predator vision, hologram displayed by wrist computer, "The enemy of my enemy...", projectile wrist blades.

For a film that's supposedly so terrible, filmmakers really love ripping it off. ::)

I've watched both AVP and Prometheus back to back and there's no question about it: Prometheus was a big rip off of AVP. It's like a beat for beat remake; the more I think about it the more similarities I find.

- The first time we see the Prometheus, we're tricked into believing it's a planet but as the camera moves it's revealed to be a ship. This is just like the satellite at the beginning of AVP: we think it's an alien queen but than the camera moves and we see it's a satellite.

-The characters are in the pyramid looking at ancient bodies that have been chest bursted. Infact the whole movie is just the characters trying to figure out what happened 1000s of years ago just like in AVP.

- a storm occurs which causes one character to save the life of another. Lex saves Weyland/David saves Shaw.

- I can not be the only one who thought Ford could pass for Miller's sister. The resemblance is just scary.

If Paul W.S Anderson is a hack what does that make the guy who steals from him? A super hack?

Quote from: JPredator on Jan 21, 2014, 09:02:41 AM
Ridley Scott may have not seen AVP but Damon Lindeloff and Jon Spaihts sure as hell did.

Spaihts also borrowed beat-for-beat from Aliens Apocalypse: Destroying Angels. I actually feel bad for Ridley in a way, in that his big return to sci-fi wound up being basically a rehash of EU and crossover films he never bothered watching/reading. It's his own fault for not taking time to double-check (God knows he has no time for EU or the other films in the series), but I can't help but feel like he was taken for a ride by his writers.

I still liked Prometheus, though.

FOr all its flaws, i too enjoy Prometheus. Beyond the characters questionable actions, the only thing that bothered me was the depiction of the engineers.

I am not a fan of linking them to human creation nor am i a fan of them being humanoid. For me, it takes away the very thing that made the Aliens Alien.

I would really like to read  Aliens Apocalypse: Destroying Angels too. heard good things about it. ALso need to finally get around to reading ALiens Nightmare asylum/Earth War as well.

Quote from: JPredator on Jan 27, 2014, 11:42:58 AM
I would really like to read  Aliens Apocalypse: Destroying Angels too. heard good things about it. ALso need to finally get around to reading ALiens Nightmare asylum/Earth War as well.

It's a pretty interesting story, but I'm not as much of a fan of it as some. It has many of the same problems that Prometheus wound up having, no surprise given that Spaihts basically adapted it into Alien: Engineers. It does make me glad that Prometheus tangentialized away from the xenos (save the Deacon, of course), because in Destroying Angels they feel really tacked on, and they have no impact on the story to speak of.

Quote from: JPredator on Jan 27, 2014, 11:42:58 AM
I am not a fan of linking them to human creation nor am i a fan of them being humanoid. For me, it takes away the very thing that made the Aliens Alien.

That's cool, but I suggest you take at look at Aliens Omnibus 1, particularly the final short "The Alien." It basically proves that Ridley was right about living, elephant-like Space Jockeys looking really goofy.

Quote from: Jigsaw85 on Jan 27, 2014, 01:04:30 AM
At least Paul W.S Anderson wanted to do something as original as possible. I can't find many similiarties between AVP and the other alien films besides a few well placed subtle references. Even Predators seems to take a few Ideas from AVP: 3 predators, foot print detecting predator vision, hologram displayed by wrist computer, "The enemy of my enemy...", projectile wrist blades.

For a film that's supposedly so terrible, filmmakers really love ripping it off. ::)

I've watched both AVP and Prometheus back to back and there's no question about it: Prometheus was a big rip off of AVP. It's like a beat for beat remake; the more I think about it the more similarities I find.

- The first time we see the Prometheus, we're tricked into believing it's a planet but as the camera moves it's revealed to be a ship. This is just like the satellite at the beginning of AVP: we think it's an alien queen but than the camera moves and we see it's a satellite.

-The characters are in the pyramid looking at ancient bodies that have been chest bursted. Infact the whole movie is just the characters trying to figure out what happened 1000s of years ago just like in AVP.

- a storm occurs which causes one character to save the life of another. Lex saves Weyland/David saves Shaw.

- I can not be the only one who thought Ford could pass for Miller's sister. The resemblance is just scary.

If Paul W.S Anderson is a hack what does that make the guy who steals from him? A super hack?

What does your post make you for not reading the rest of the thread which already disproved your theory? A moron?

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Jan 27, 2014, 05:46:02 PM

Quote from: Jigsaw85 on Jan 27, 2014, 01:04:30 AM
At least Paul W.S Anderson wanted to do something as original as possible. I can't find many similiarties between AVP and the other alien films besides a few well placed subtle references. Even Predators seems to take a few Ideas from AVP: 3 predators, foot print detecting predator vision, hologram displayed by wrist computer, "The enemy of my enemy...", projectile wrist blades.

For a film that's supposedly so terrible, filmmakers really love ripping it off. ::)

I've watched both AVP and Prometheus back to back and there's no question about it: Prometheus was a big rip off of AVP. It's like a beat for beat remake; the more I think about it the more similarities I find.

- The first time we see the Prometheus, we're tricked into believing it's a planet but as the camera moves it's revealed to be a ship. This is just like the satellite at the beginning of AVP: we think it's an alien queen but than the camera moves and we see it's a satellite.

-The characters are in the pyramid looking at ancient bodies that have been chest bursted. Infact the whole movie is just the characters trying to figure out what happened 1000s of years ago just like in AVP.

- a storm occurs which causes one character to save the life of another. Lex saves Weyland/David saves Shaw.

- I can not be the only one who thought Ford could pass for Miller's sister. The resemblance is just scary.

If Paul W.S Anderson is a hack what does that make the guy who steals from him? A super hack?

What does your post make you for not reading the rest of the thread which already disproved your theory? A moron?

Nice attitude buddy. ::)

And no one disproved anything that's why the thread continues.

Quote from: Darth Vile on Oct 28, 2012, 10:21:18 AM
I think Prometheus was far more influenced by pulp science fiction of the 50's and the original Alien film/treatment than it was by AVP. As someone said before (was it SIL?) Prometheus uses a lot of sci-fi tropes just as Alien did... some good, some not so good. Should Ridley have watched AVP before making Prometheus? I don't think so. He had a vision of what he wanted the movie to be (which was obviously fairly fluid throughout pre production)... and most artists need/have a 'fu@k it' attitude to what's gone before (which is how it should be IMHO).

There are undeniable similarities, but those similarities are just as obvious/connected as the similarities between Alien and its subsequent sequels (excluding returning characters obviously).

Actually Jigsaw, the thread was answered ages ago.

Prometheus and Alien were both inspired by films, much much older than AVP, the fact there are similarities to AVP is merely a coincidence. Anyone who thinks otherwise has to be loony to think that Ridley's film was inspired by a bad crossover he had never seen. Go look at Spahits original script also, it was only when Lindelof was hired on that a few similarities appeared.
And also as stated Lindelof warned Ridley about the similarities.

The simple fact of the matter is that Ridley doesn't give a f**k about bad crossovers with bad "Xenomorph" designs.

And how does this change the fact both are extremely similar? Bad crossover or not, shame is on the later not the former.

Yet second is superior in every way, and as far as I'm concerned AVP 2004 never happened so there's nothing in the franchise to copy, so if you want to be butthurt that Prometheus is similar to AVP go ahead, but by the majority the latter is considered a better film.

This discussion is pointless and is only going in circles.

QuoteI am not a fan of linking them to human creation nor am i a fan of them being humanoid. For me, it takes away the very thing that made the Aliens Alien.

Jockeys being big bald albinos doesn't stop the Aliens being Alien at all.

The moment you make an 'ALien' humanoid, share DNA and credit it as the creator of the human race is the moment where the ALien engineers become relatable and less ALien.

What made the Space Jokey in ALien so alien is the fact that it didnt seem to make any sense as an organism. It was so utterly unrelatable in every sense and truly ALien.

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Jan 29, 2014, 09:50:14 AM
Yet second is superior in every way, and as far as I'm concerned AVP 2004 never happened so there's nothing in the franchise to copy, so if you want to be butthurt that Prometheus is similar to AVP go ahead, but by the majority the latter is considered a better film.

This discussion is pointless and is only going in circles.

By majority you mean by yourself? :D Seriously, Prometheus is pretty but it`s plot is chooped as f**k and rarely makes sanse. That dosen`t make it better film.

Quoteas far as I'm concerned AVP 2004 never happened so there's nothing in the franchise to copy, so if you want to be butthurt that Prometheus is similar to AVP go ahead

Wow, what an argument! Gosh you really proved your oppinion. You remind me hippie from Futurama.

Quote from: Master on Jan 29, 2014, 10:29:01 AM

Quote from: The1PerfectOrganism on Jan 29, 2014, 09:50:14 AM
Yet second is superior in every way, and as far as I'm concerned AVP 2004 never happened so there's nothing in the franchise to copy, so if you want to be butthurt that Prometheus is similar to AVP go ahead, but by the majority the latter is considered a better film.

This discussion is pointless and is only going in circles.

By majority you mean by yourself? :D Seriously, Prometheus is pretty but it`s plot is chooped as f**k and rarely makes sanse. That dosen`t make it better film.

Quoteas far as I'm concerned AVP 2004 never happened so there's nothing in the franchise to copy, so if you want to be butthurt that Prometheus is similar to AVP go ahead

Wow, what an argument! Gosh you really proved your oppinion. You remind me hippie from Futurama.

Un No, only need to look at Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB to show you that AVP is considered garbage and Prometheus is above average.

And no again, it's clear I meant that although AVP and Prometheus have similarities it MEANS NOTHING because as already explained it was inspired by films from the 50's.

YOU can be butthurt that they are COINCIDENTALLY similar but again it means nothing.

And as for that other comment I made I personally consider AVP 2004 & it's sequel never to have happened, one Giger design rape is enough *Cough* A:R *Cough* by morons who don't understand why the design is so special (Biomechanics.)

Quote from: JPredator on Jan 29, 2014, 10:16:53 AM
The moment you make an 'ALien' humanoid, share DNA and credit it as the creator of the human race is the moment where the ALien engineers become relatable and less ALien.

What made the Space Jokey in ALien so alien is the fact that it didnt seem to make any sense as an organism. It was so utterly unrelatable in every sense and truly ALien.

It had one head (with two eyes and a mouth) and two arms (ending in five fingered hands) attached to a torso (maybe even legs).  Fairly humanoid.

Additionally it transmitted warning for others to stay away.  Fairly humane.

who cares about details like that, SM...

PROMETHEUS WAS A f**kING BETRAYAL OF ALL THAT MADE THE ALIEN "ALIEN"! f**k!

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn01.dailycaller.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F03%2FShabbos.jpg&hash=c82a63ca18828bcdcd4e84834022f42d6bebb00a)

SM's right, it couldn't be more human if you trie if you remove one alien aspect ( The breathing apparatus ) it basically is.

Also really Prometheus got it pretty right, as Yoda would say "Only different in your mind."

It's more a question of degrees.

ChrisPachi, I have no idea what you mean.

At least I hope you aren't implying something.

I mean there are degrees of humanness between the two and for some people the Engineers have a bit too much of it. I don't think you can argue that the Space Jockey is just as 'human-like' in design as the Engineers. That's plain old crazy talk.

Apart from the head, I would argue that the Engineers are even more Alien than the original Space Jockey when in their jumpsuits, which offer an extremely giger-esque aesthetic, more so than the bio suit's huge ribcage and elephantine head-piece.

Honestly I think their design serves best to whichever movie they are in.
I wasn't too upset by the design re-interpretation as the Space Jockey from Alien was essentially a man with a huge ribcage and elephantine head, nothing else alien about him apart from the odd patterns on his arms. When the Engineers were in their suits in Prometheus we essentially got the same thing, only their air of "Alien" was replaced with mystique and their scale was different.

QuoteApart from the head, I would argue that the Engineers are even more Alien than the original Space Jockey when in their jumpsuits...

Suits. SUITS! :P

Comparing them is pointless. Both are great aliens and both are artful perversions of the human form. It all depends on how you like your perversion. I personally like mine Swiss, with a healthy does of WTF.

Quote from: Gash on Jan 26, 2014, 04:48:04 PM

Quote from: Litshttam on Jan 20, 2014, 10:15:00 PM
Unless Paul W.S. Anderson time-travelled to 2012 before he began crafting AvP in 1994, er, no.  ::)

Three other 'coincidental' similarities no-one else has touched upon (that I can be bothered to verify, anyway); both at-the-end chestburst victims were played by Ian Whyte, real movie footage is watched ('Frankenstein vs The Wolfman' in AvP / 'Lawrence Of Arabia' in Prometheus) and the vessels used to reach the setting begin with the letter 'P' (Piper Maru *don't get me started on the black goo X Files thing!* in AvP / the eponymous Prometheus).

Mr. Scott's a hack these days.

Why? Because someone came along and took ideas that were all part of ALIEN's development and tacked them into a cheesy spin off franchise? Scott comes back and develops the ideas that he didn't have the time or budget for in 78, gives them more scope and gravitas than WSA ever could and he's a hack? Right.

Yes, a hack; his Prometheus is AvP Mk. II, as evidenced by myself and my predecessors in this thread. I have serious doubts as to the validity of Scott's claim that he hasn't seen AvP. Maybe he made the claim to pre-emptively quash the realization that Prometheus is a downright rip-off of Anderson's movie (your opinion of which is beside the point).

---

Quote from: Jigsaw85 on Jan 27, 2014, 01:04:30 AM
Even Predators seems to take a few Ideas from AVP: 3 predators, foot print detecting predator vision, hologram displayed by wrist computer, "The enemy of my enemy...", projectile wrist blades.

For a film that's supposedly so terrible, filmmakers really love ripping it off. ::)

Oh yeah, well spotted!

Kindly f**k-up, this argument died weeks ago.

You guys just want AVP to be better than it is and are butthurt Prometheus is MUCH better.

Anyway I won't be participating in this cycle of B.S.

Quote from: Litshttam on Feb 03, 2014, 04:57:29 PM

Quote from: Gash on Jan 26, 2014, 04:48:04 PM

Quote from: Litshttam on Jan 20, 2014, 10:15:00 PM
Unless Paul W.S. Anderson time-travelled to 2012 before he began crafting AvP in 1994, er, no.  ::)

Three other 'coincidental' similarities no-one else has touched upon (that I can be bothered to verify, anyway); both at-the-end chestburst victims were played by Ian Whyte, real movie footage is watched ('Frankenstein vs The Wolfman' in AvP / 'Lawrence Of Arabia' in Prometheus) and the vessels used to reach the setting begin with the letter 'P' (Piper Maru *don't get me started on the black goo X Files thing!* in AvP / the eponymous Prometheus).

Mr. Scott's a hack these days.

Why? Because someone came along and took ideas that were all part of ALIEN's development and tacked them into a cheesy spin off franchise? Scott comes back and develops the ideas that he didn't have the time or budget for in 78, gives them more scope and gravitas than WSA ever could and he's a hack? Right.

Yes, a hack; his Prometheus is AvP Mk. II, as evidenced by myself and my predecessors in this thread. I have serious doubts as to the validity of Scott's claim that he hasn't seen AvP. Maybe he made the claim to pre-emptively quash the realization that Prometheus is a downright rip-off of Anderson's movie (your opinion of which is beside the point).

---

Quote from: Jigsaw85 on Jan 27, 2014, 01:04:30 AM
Even Predators seems to take a few Ideas from AVP: 3 predators, foot print detecting predator vision, hologram displayed by wrist computer, "The enemy of my enemy...", projectile wrist blades.

For a film that's supposedly so terrible, filmmakers really love ripping it off. ::)

Oh yeah, well spotted!

If anything, any peripheral similarities between AvP and Prometheus pretty much prove the point that Scott didn't see it and didn't care to. He rekindled elements from ALIEN's development /pre production era, unaware that Anderson had plundered it in the meantime. I'd say that was his right, and he did the ideas more justice.

Of course it was.

And then Alien totally ripped off that horseshoe space ship and the creature at the end that came out of the space jockey dude.
But they arbitrarily changed a few things about it like the shape of the head to try and make it look like they were doing something original.

Lets face it,
Prometheus is one of those once in a lifetime classics that people will be copying, rehashing, rearranging and imitating for the last 30 years.

the avp was not the tear in Prometheus pq avp and a movie battle between the two deadliest creatures in the universe for me was not the avp tear in Prometheus

Quote from: Gash on Feb 11, 2014, 04:37:50 AM

Quote from: Litshttam on Feb 03, 2014, 04:57:29 PM

Quote from: Gash on Jan 26, 2014, 04:48:04 PM

Quote from: Litshttam on Jan 20, 2014, 10:15:00 PM
Unless Paul W.S. Anderson time-travelled to 2012 before he began crafting AvP in 1994, er, no.  ::)

Three other 'coincidental' similarities no-one else has touched upon (that I can be bothered to verify, anyway); both at-the-end chestburst victims were played by Ian Whyte, real movie footage is watched ('Frankenstein vs The Wolfman' in AvP / 'Lawrence Of Arabia' in Prometheus) and the vessels used to reach the setting begin with the letter 'P' (Piper Maru *don't get me started on the black goo X Files thing!* in AvP / the eponymous Prometheus).

Mr. Scott's a hack these days.

Why? Because someone came along and took ideas that were all part of ALIEN's development and tacked them into a cheesy spin off franchise? Scott comes back and develops the ideas that he didn't have the time or budget for in 78, gives them more scope and gravitas than WSA ever could and he's a hack? Right.

Yes, a hack; his Prometheus is AvP Mk. II, as evidenced by myself and my predecessors in this thread. I have serious doubts as to the validity of Scott's claim that he hasn't seen AvP. Maybe he made the claim to pre-emptively quash the realization that Prometheus is a downright rip-off of Anderson's movie (your opinion of which is beside the point).

---

Quote from: Jigsaw85 on Jan 27, 2014, 01:04:30 AM
Even Predators seems to take a few Ideas from AVP: 3 predators, foot print detecting predator vision, hologram displayed by wrist computer, "The enemy of my enemy...", projectile wrist blades.

For a film that's supposedly so terrible, filmmakers really love ripping it off. ::)

Oh yeah, well spotted!

If anything, any peripheral similarities between AvP and Prometheus pretty much prove the point that Scott didn't see it and didn't care to. He rekindled elements from ALIEN's development /pre production era, unaware that Anderson had plundered it in the meantime. I'd say that was his right, and he did the ideas more justice.

You're either a Scott-apologist or easily hoodwinked.

Quote from: Litshttam on Mar 31, 2014, 12:52:04 AM

Quote from: Gash on Feb 11, 2014, 04:37:50 AM

Quote from: Litshttam on Feb 03, 2014, 04:57:29 PM

Quote from: Gash on Jan 26, 2014, 04:48:04 PM

Quote from: Litshttam on Jan 20, 2014, 10:15:00 PM
Unless Paul W.S. Anderson time-travelled to 2012 before he began crafting AvP in 1994, er, no.  ::)

Three other 'coincidental' similarities no-one else has touched upon (that I can be bothered to verify, anyway); both at-the-end chestburst victims were played by Ian Whyte, real movie footage is watched ('Frankenstein vs The Wolfman' in AvP / 'Lawrence Of Arabia' in Prometheus) and the vessels used to reach the setting begin with the letter 'P' (Piper Maru *don't get me started on the black goo X Files thing!* in AvP / the eponymous Prometheus).

Mr. Scott's a hack these days.

Why? Because someone came along and took ideas that were all part of ALIEN's development and tacked them into a cheesy spin off franchise? Scott comes back and develops the ideas that he didn't have the time or budget for in 78, gives them more scope and gravitas than WSA ever could and he's a hack? Right.

Yes, a hack; his Prometheus is AvP Mk. II, as evidenced by myself and my predecessors in this thread. I have serious doubts as to the validity of Scott's claim that he hasn't seen AvP. Maybe he made the claim to pre-emptively quash the realization that Prometheus is a downright rip-off of Anderson's movie (your opinion of which is beside the point).

---

Quote from: Jigsaw85 on Jan 27, 2014, 01:04:30 AM
Even Predators seems to take a few Ideas from AVP: 3 predators, foot print detecting predator vision, hologram displayed by wrist computer, "The enemy of my enemy...", projectile wrist blades.

For a film that's supposedly so terrible, filmmakers really love ripping it off. ::)

Oh yeah, well spotted!

If anything, any peripheral similarities between AvP and Prometheus pretty much prove the point that Scott didn't see it and didn't care to. He rekindled elements from ALIEN's development /pre production era, unaware that Anderson had plundered it in the meantime. I'd say that was his right, and he did the ideas more justice.

You're either a Scott-apologist or easily hoodwinked.

Neither. AvP was clearly a mishmash of ideas ranging as far back as Star Beast. I prefer Prometheus because Ridley, (+ O'Bannon, Giger, Cobb, Foss, etc) had involvement with those ideas as they were being developed, even if they were then discarded due to budgetary constraints and story requirements. I therefore see a greater connection than a 'comic book cash in. I dislike AvP because it takes some of those ideas, mixes them with Predator and offers up something that feels like little more than a platform computer game.   

How shocking that I should prefer - like even - a film that is aiming to be about a bit more than 'aliens versus predator'.

I suppose I can give some credit to Anderson for wanting to rekindle the lost elements of ALIEN's early drafts, but it doesn't sit well with the Abbott and Costello school of monster mash ups. AvP:R on the other hand doesn't even try, it really was just falling back on it's name, finally driving the spin off franchise into the dust (where it belonged). You can see in some of the shots in AvP that Anderson cared, it was just a bad idea. It plundered a few decent set pieces, but yeah I maintain Prometheus did them more justice and had first claim on them.

Are you suggesting that Hitler was a rip off of Pol Pot?

yeah im actually really glad avpr happened and even happier that it was a steaming pile of crap. hate the idea of aliens and predators sharing a film universe. keep it to the games and eu where it works. avp was a good shot at it and it was obvious anderson cared. it just came out a bit... meh

Quote from: Gash on Mar 31, 2014, 01:48:29 AM

Quote from: Litshttam on Mar 31, 2014, 12:52:04 AM

Quote from: Gash on Feb 11, 2014, 04:37:50 AM

Quote from: Litshttam on Feb 03, 2014, 04:57:29 PM

Quote from: Gash on Jan 26, 2014, 04:48:04 PM

Quote from: Litshttam on Jan 20, 2014, 10:15:00 PM
Unless Paul W.S. Anderson time-travelled to 2012 before he began crafting AvP in 1994, er, no.  ::)

Three other 'coincidental' similarities no-one else has touched upon (that I can be bothered to verify, anyway); both at-the-end chestburst victims were played by Ian Whyte, real movie footage is watched ('Frankenstein vs The Wolfman' in AvP / 'Lawrence Of Arabia' in Prometheus) and the vessels used to reach the setting begin with the letter 'P' (Piper Maru *don't get me started on the black goo X Files thing!* in AvP / the eponymous Prometheus).

Mr. Scott's a hack these days.

Why? Because someone came along and took ideas that were all part of ALIEN's development and tacked them into a cheesy spin off franchise? Scott comes back and develops the ideas that he didn't have the time or budget for in 78, gives them more scope and gravitas than WSA ever could and he's a hack? Right.

Yes, a hack; his Prometheus is AvP Mk. II, as evidenced by myself and my predecessors in this thread. I have serious doubts as to the validity of Scott's claim that he hasn't seen AvP. Maybe he made the claim to pre-emptively quash the realization that Prometheus is a downright rip-off of Anderson's movie (your opinion of which is beside the point).

---

Quote from: Jigsaw85 on Jan 27, 2014, 01:04:30 AM
Even Predators seems to take a few Ideas from AVP: 3 predators, foot print detecting predator vision, hologram displayed by wrist computer, "The enemy of my enemy...", projectile wrist blades.

For a film that's supposedly so terrible, filmmakers really love ripping it off. ::)

Oh yeah, well spotted!

If anything, any peripheral similarities between AvP and Prometheus pretty much prove the point that Scott didn't see it and didn't care to. He rekindled elements from ALIEN's development /pre production era, unaware that Anderson had plundered it in the meantime. I'd say that was his right, and he did the ideas more justice.

You're either a Scott-apologist or easily hoodwinked.

Neither. AvP was clearly a mishmash of ideas ranging as far back as Star Beast. I prefer Prometheus because Ridley, (+ O'Bannon, Giger, Cobb, Foss, etc) had involvement with those ideas as they were being developed, even if they were then discarded due to budgetary constraints and story requirements. I therefore see a greater connection than a 'comic book cash in. I dislike AvP because it takes some of those ideas, mixes them with Predator and offers up something that feels like little more than a platform computer game.   

And the proof is right there in AvP's credit list. It's because Anderson ripped off Alien's discarded ideas that O Bannon and Shussett ended up with a story credit for AvP and not just the usual 'based on characters by'.

Quote from: Gazz on Apr 01, 2014, 03:23:11 PM

Quote from: Gash on Mar 31, 2014, 01:48:29 AM

Quote from: Litshttam on Mar 31, 2014, 12:52:04 AM

Quote from: Gash on Feb 11, 2014, 04:37:50 AM

Quote from: Litshttam on Feb 03, 2014, 04:57:29 PM

Quote from: Gash on Jan 26, 2014, 04:48:04 PM

Quote from: Litshttam on Jan 20, 2014, 10:15:00 PM
Unless Paul W.S. Anderson time-travelled to 2012 before he began crafting AvP in 1994, er, no.  ::)

Three other 'coincidental' similarities no-one else has touched upon (that I can be bothered to verify, anyway); both at-the-end chestburst victims were played by Ian Whyte, real movie footage is watched ('Frankenstein vs The Wolfman' in AvP / 'Lawrence Of Arabia' in Prometheus) and the vessels used to reach the setting begin with the letter 'P' (Piper Maru *don't get me started on the black goo X Files thing!* in AvP / the eponymous Prometheus).

Mr. Scott's a hack these days.

Why? Because someone came along and took ideas that were all part of ALIEN's development and tacked them into a cheesy spin off franchise? Scott comes back and develops the ideas that he didn't have the time or budget for in 78, gives them more scope and gravitas than WSA ever could and he's a hack? Right.

Yes, a hack; his Prometheus is AvP Mk. II, as evidenced by myself and my predecessors in this thread. I have serious doubts as to the validity of Scott's claim that he hasn't seen AvP. Maybe he made the claim to pre-emptively quash the realization that Prometheus is a downright rip-off of Anderson's movie (your opinion of which is beside the point).

---

Quote from: Jigsaw85 on Jan 27, 2014, 01:04:30 AM
Even Predators seems to take a few Ideas from AVP: 3 predators, foot print detecting predator vision, hologram displayed by wrist computer, "The enemy of my enemy...", projectile wrist blades.

For a film that's supposedly so terrible, filmmakers really love ripping it off. ::)

Oh yeah, well spotted!

If anything, any peripheral similarities between AvP and Prometheus pretty much prove the point that Scott didn't see it and didn't care to. He rekindled elements from ALIEN's development /pre production era, unaware that Anderson had plundered it in the meantime. I'd say that was his right, and he did the ideas more justice.

You're either a Scott-apologist or easily hoodwinked.

Neither. AvP was clearly a mishmash of ideas ranging as far back as Star Beast. I prefer Prometheus because Ridley, (+ O'Bannon, Giger, Cobb, Foss, etc) had involvement with those ideas as they were being developed, even if they were then discarded due to budgetary constraints and story requirements. I therefore see a greater connection than a 'comic book cash in. I dislike AvP because it takes some of those ideas, mixes them with Predator and offers up something that feels like little more than a platform computer game.   

And the proof is right there in AvP's credit list. It's because Anderson ripped off Alien's discarded ideas that O Bannon and Shussett ended up with a story credit for AvP and not just the usual 'based on characters by'.

You're alluding to both works having a 'pyramid'. Why would Anderson credit someone he's 'ripping off' (even if he was, as the concept ended up in the bin on Alien, Anderson could always plead ignorance and coincidence)?! Talk about asking for a lawsuit. No, a tip of the hat with O'Bannon & Shusett's blessing is all that was.

Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Feb 01, 2014, 01:50:30 AM
Apart from the head, I would argue that the Engineers are even more Alien than the original Space Jockey when in their jumpsuits, which offer an extremely giger-esque aesthetic, more so than the bio suit's huge ribcage and elephantine head-piece.

They are most certainly not more Alien. The Jockey as seen in the original film is a literal fusion of machine and organism. We have no idea what the "Jockey" itself is supposed to look like with flesh. It is WHOLLY different from us in both senses.

The Engineer in Prometheus is genetic linked to us, and looks exactly like ancient statues of Greek Gods. They are familiar with a sprinkling of Giger elements overlaid. The mystery is very intently sapped, and their otherness greatly sapped out...

Quote from: HybridNewborn on Jan 23, 2013, 04:39:39 AM
I'm gonna throw in a link to my list of references/homages in Prometheus (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=44322.msg1406491#msg1406491) to give some context on just how much of Prometheus was recycled from other films in the franchise. Hint, it's like 90% of the film.

Just finished watching The Ouija Experiment and like 90% of other movies you can pick scene after scene where the movie re-invents from other movies, look hard enough and you can do this with any movie.

For anyone interested did enjoy me some Prometheus, even with a few issues, but people are going over the top with picking it apart, you can do this with any movie.

Just discovered this thread after writing a short article on the same subject.
I guess we can agree that it was a rip-off.

https://www.avpcentral.com/prometheus-rips-off-avp

Mission to Mars pre-dates both.

Quote from: Wweyland on Nov 04, 2017, 08:59:12 PM
Just discovered this thread after writing a short article on the same subject.
I guess we can agree that it was a rip-off.

https://www.avpcentral.com/prometheus-rips-off-avp

I don't see a rip off.
The production of "Alien" had multiple ideas which weren't put in the film (like pyramids/domes), aliens in suits.
Second, before AVP, Ridley had speculated about the Space Jockeys (on the "Alien" DVD) in which they were a warlike race who had xenomorphs as weapons.
As Scott developed these ideas I don't believe he was thinking about "Predator".

;)