AvP gets a lot of hate, but I find the first movie enjoyable. It's not amazing or anything, but I didn't mind it at all.
Teaming up with the woman is not such a bad idea, only the part where they run together in slow motion is silly. There's even a deleted scene where Predator sort of pranks her and scares her for fun.
Now, the sequel is an absolute abomination, no question about it. We can all agree on that. But the first one is not that bad at all.
What makes AvP bad?
AVP is not a bad movie but it's biggest problem in my opinion is that the characters were simply uninteresting. Plus I'm sure all the Predator fans were pissed about it. I mean 2 of the preds got taken out like pussies and the 3rd one died too. That slow mo thing, meh this was 2004, that was super popular back then.
I honestly don't think AVPr is that bad either, if it weren't for the fact that you can't see shit happening half of the time. I don't get all the anger over the egg barfing... the alien is a freaking rape monster that does horrible things. People asked for horror and they delivered. Of course the digital blood splatter was absolutely horrible. The bitching about the dialog is unfair too; it's a town of hicks. :P
In retrospect, the movie isn't bad at all. It's got great cinematography, an amazing blend of practical and CGI effects, the story wasn't bad either considering what we usually get:"a monster is picking off the cast one at a time...in a jungle...or on a spaceship." It was the first in the series to have the balls to try something new. I loved the slow buildup to the pyramid, I liked Alexa woods and Weyland: two characters who actually have interesting backgrounds and motives. I may get shit for this but Lex is way more interesting than Ripley was in the first Alien movie.
It's not a perfect movie by any means, but then again what Alien/predator movie is? I think it all came down to fanboy complaints instead of actual filmmaking mistakes.
Two predators got taken out so easily? welcome to AVP where the predators aren't gods, the aliens deserve to have their moments of glory too guys, get used to it.
the chestbursters were born in 10 minutes? I personally think that was just faulty editing, who really knows how much time has passed during the movie. Boy I miss the days when this was one of the biggest complaints we had. now we've got AVPR, Predators and Prometheus. the complaints in AVP just seem so petty now.
It was OK just it was to childish and the PG 13 Violence(I mean no swearing,no gore and the predator they way look.
Quote from: overthere on Dec 05, 2015, 12:25:08 PM
There's even a deleted scene where Predator sort of pranks her and scares her for fun.
Link? ;D
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on Dec 05, 2015, 03:31:44 PM
In retrospect, the movie isn't bad at all. It's got great cinematography, an amazing blend of practical and CGI effects, the story wasn't bad either considering what we usually get:"a monster is picking off the cast one at a time...in a jungle...or on a spaceship." It was the first in the series to have the balls to try something new. I loved the slow buildup to the pyramid, I liked Alexa woods and Weyland: two characters who actually have interesting backgrounds and motives. I may get shit for this but Lex is way more interesting than Ripley was in the first Alien movie.
It's not a perfect movie by any means, but then again what Alien/predator movie is? I think it all came down to fanboy complaints instead of actual filmmaking mistakes.
Two predators got taken out so easily? welcome to AVP where the predators aren't gods, the aliens deserve to have their moments of glory too guys get used to it.
the chestbursters were born in 10 minutes. I personally think that was just faulty editing, who really knows how much time has passed during the movie. Boy I miss the days when this was one of the biggest complaints we had. now we got AVPR, Predators and Prometheus. the complaints in AVP just seem so petty now.
This. There are a lot of things which I hated at first, but I just got used to it. The only problem now is how it relates to the canon (don't even ask me about AVP-R's ending, sigh).
The events of the movie happen and Lex dies somewhere along the way, or forgets everything and nobody finds out, then a long way into the future the Nostromo incident happens? At least that's how it works in my head-canon.
Quote from: Randomizer on Dec 05, 2015, 06:54:52 PM
Quote from: overthere on Dec 05, 2015, 12:25:08 PM
There's even a deleted scene where Predator sort of pranks her and scares her for fun.
Link? ;D
This. There are a lot of things which I hated at first, but I just got used to it. The only problem now is how it relates to the canon (don't even ask me about AVP-R's ending, sigh).
The events of the movie happen and Lex dies somewhere along the way, or forgets everything and nobody finds out, then a long way into the future the Nostromo incident happens? At least that's how it works in my head-canon.
Speaking of Lex, what's with Predators playing dumb whenever someone needs a ride home? They seem to honor you but just leave you wherever the hell you are. At the end of Predator 2 they simply started the engines and prepared to leave, not caring at all if Harrigan got out or not. They left Lex stranded on Antartica. Yea, thanks for sparing my life and awarding me with a trophy, but I'm going to die from exposure here.
Quote from: overthere on Dec 05, 2015, 07:14:11 PM
Quote from: Randomizer on Dec 05, 2015, 06:54:52 PM
Quote from: overthere on Dec 05, 2015, 12:25:08 PM
There's even a deleted scene where Predator sort of pranks her and scares her for fun.
Link? ;D
This. There are a lot of things which I hated at first, but I just got used to it. The only problem now is how it relates to the canon (don't even ask me about AVP-R's ending, sigh).
The events of the movie happen and Lex dies somewhere along the way, or forgets everything and nobody finds out, then a long way into the future the Nostromo incident happens? At least that's how it works in my head-canon.
Speaking of Lex, what's with Predators playing dumb whenever someone needs a ride home? They seem to honor you but just leave you wherever the hell you are. At the end of Predator 2 they simply started the engines and prepared to leave, not caring at all if Harrigan got out or not. They left Lex stranded on Antartica. Yea, thanks for sparing my life and awarding me with a trophy, but I'm going to die from exposure here.
Predator honor code, I guess? Like, the hunter finished his job, it's up to him to get back home. Surviving on the way back is part of the "training".
Or they just wanted to be ambiguous, for movie directing/budget's sake.
The original 'AvP' movie isn't bad - it's not great either. It's a solid average movie.
It is let down in some areas, for sure. Firstly, it's not what fans wanted. That'll generate a negative response straight away. Most fans wanted an action based tale on a colony world with Aliens, Predators and Marines. We didn't get anything like that. Instead we got some hokey story about an ancient pyramid buried under Antarctic ice that gets used for Rites of Passage by Predators who hunt Aliens. It's a premise that makes no sense. At all. Why..? WHY did they think this was actually a good idea... WHY?
On the other hand, the story itself is an interesting take on the old 'Boys Own' adventure style of material that authors of the likes of Doyle, Burroughs, Lovecraft and Haggard popularised so many decades ago. Each of these writers made their mark on popular culture by sending groups of explorers to previously unexplored parts of the world and the fantastic adventures their characters had there. The first 'AvP' movie resonates strongly in this regard and in a World where most of the surface has been explored, Bouvet Isle is a great location to set up such a scenario for an early 21st Century equivalent of 'The Lost World' or 'King Solomons Mines' or just about everything Burroughs wrote. In this regard, 'AvP' is Tarzan's jungle, the plains of South America or undiscovered heart of Africa. Places that have been thoroughly mapped leaving little room upon the globe for such modern dramas of this nature to take place. Except for maybe at the South Pole. Where Aliens, Predators and possibly an ancient Shoggoth may still roam, waiting for us to discover them.
Whether this was intentional or not on the part of the film makers, this is what the movie feels like to me. It's neither a 'Predator' movie, nor an 'ALIEN' one. Which is probably a good thing. So despite its goofy and outlandish premise, it's no worse off than anyone writing about dinosaurs surviving in South America or finding them thriving on an uncharted island in the South Atlantic. I'm totally fine with all of this. It's nonsense, but at least it's fun nonsense. The film's one big major flaw is its characterisations. Sure, it possesses its other inconsistencies and problems as well but when a movie's characters are lacking, then it's in trouble. If the onscreen performances had been more engaging and worth investing in, then the movie would be something more than just some weird thing that came out in 2004.
It's a sad indictment on the characters of the movie that the pyramid itself possesses more personality than any of them; and it's a queer curiosity in terms of being an entry that bridges both the 'ALIEN' and 'Predator' series. It doesn't perform that essential task in a rewarding manner but at least it's neither a complete Fail for lack of being a resounding Success.
At least it's a damned sight better than 'AvP: Requiem', which is devoid of any personality whatsoever and lacks any performance or direction of any notable value. It could have been a worthy successor to the quaint antiquated 'Boys Own' antics of the 2004 film and be just as odd and quirky; but unfortunately a movie needs to do a lot more than single mindedly endeavour to pull out all stops just to score an 'R' rating to be any good.
-Windebieste.
Well, if you want to know what's "wrong" with the movie... Here are the common complaints which I hear about it.
The PG-13 Rating: This is perhaps one of the biggest complaints that I have heard. Apparently nowadays, PG-13 is equivalent to either G or PG now in geekdom as a whole. This means a tone down of violence, language and an affect of the overall tone and mood of the world which the two franchises had hailed from. I never really saw the rating as a problem.
The Setting: This is perhaps one of the bigger complaints again. We all wanted a movie which was set sometime in the 2100s to the 2200s. We wanted a movie in space or on a colony world. We never got that. A lot of the belief is that AVP belongs in the future and in space-- closer to the tone of the Alien films, rather than so much the Predator films which are set in the present. Davis wanted the AVP films to be closer to the Predator films, and he achieved that but sacrificed what could've been. A lot of people feel that Antarctica was the wrong place to set the film at, a lot of people feel that Earth was the wrong place to have the conflict on as it apparently made Ripley's battle with the Alien redundant. People say that Antarctica was the wrong place because Predators prefer hot climates and can't hunt, but other media out there shows Predators hunting in cold climates and functioning just fine.
The Cast: Lance Henrikson aside, who I think did phenomenal as Charles Bishop Weyland-- a lot of people feel that the cast suffered some wooden acting, and the dialogue was really something to be left desired.
Creature Effects- A lot of people really wanted Stan Wintson Studios to do the creature effects. Let's face it, Stan was a freakin' legend and had we had Stan Winston on board, we would've gotten designs EVERYONE would've been happy with. However we ended up with Amalgamated Dynamics Inc., which was founded by two proteges of Stan Winston. For a lot of people, this.. was disappointing. People had complained about the designs of the Predators, that their dreadlocks were too long, their mouths were oversized and didn't clone, and were too muscular and big than what had come before in the previous two Predator movies. We also had complaints about the Aliens, which.. are perhaps more valid, in that the recycled use of the Resurrection Aliens was a strategy to reduce costs. While the idea of re-using a suit is economically sound, fans wanted something more along the lines of either the Giger Alien or the Cameron Alien with their bio-mechanical feel.
So far... those are the complaints which I remember hearing the most and still hear about to this very day.
It's poorly written for a start. It also takes 55 minutes to get to the title fight, and the movie then ends almost exactly thirty minutes later. Anderson kept using the original ALIEN films as his inspiration, but those films spend longer WITH the monsters than without them. The lack of gore and the toned down violence makes it feel limp. There's no real impact to anything that happens. The Aliens nor the Predators are particularly intimidating or scary. The teamup feels as forced as one could dread.
Trying to rewatch it these days is an incredibly boring experience more than anything. The worst part is that the characters basically don't do anything but react to shit for 40 minutes. Passive characters are the worst. The first major decision a human character has that actually has the least bit of impact to the plot is Weyland ordering the others to pick up the Predator shoulder cannons. Until then, the Predators themselves have been popping up every 5-10 minutes to nudge the plot along and keep things moving: if we waited for the main characters, nothing would ever happen.
It's an 80 minute movie that spends 50 minutes with a group of dull, passive, uninteresting characters and then rushes to the end at the sake of neglecting all the shit we actually came to see.
Quote from: Randomizer on Dec 05, 2015, 06:54:52 PM
The only problem now is how it relates to the canon (don't even ask me about AVP-R's ending, sigh).
According to Paul Anderson it's a separate series from
Alien. He said before its release that, "It will be a stand-alone franchise. It will not be a continuation of the
Alien franchise."
Quote from: Valaquen on Dec 06, 2015, 01:21:24 PM
According to Paul Anderson it's a separate series from Alien. He said before its release that, "It will be a stand-alone franchise. It will not be a continuation of the Alien franchise."
You sure that's right? Because the DVD Featurette has him more saying..
"It's not meant to replace the Predator movies, it's not meant to replace the Alien movies. Alien vs Predator is it's own stand-alone franchise. I would love to see a Predator 3 with Arnie, I would love to see an Alien 5 with Sigourney."
But this.. kind of conflicts with his other statement.
"Alien vs Predator is a sequel to Predator 2, and it's a prequel to the Alien films."
I think everyone else has pretty much nailed it on the head. I find I can enjoy it if I go into the film not trying to get wound up by the bits that I hate (which is more than I can do for Prometheus or AvPR) but it still completely misses every mark.
I think the balance between the species is pretty much all it got right but the rubbish choreography in the main fight lets it down.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Dec 07, 2015, 04:48:03 PM
Quote from: Valaquen on Dec 06, 2015, 01:21:24 PM
According to Paul Anderson it's a separate series from Alien. He said before its release that, "It will be a stand-alone franchise. It will not be a continuation of the Alien franchise."
You sure that's right? Because the DVD Featurette has him more saying..
"It's not meant to replace the Predator movies, it's not meant to replace the Alien movies. Alien vs Predator is it's own stand-alone franchise. I would love to see a Predator 3 with Arnie, I would love to see an Alien 5 with Sigourney."
But this.. kind of conflicts with his other statement.
"Alien vs Predator is a sequel to Predator 2, and it's a prequel to the Alien films."
The second quote seems to place the AVP films in the chronology, but every other statement says you don't have to consider it part of that chronology. So you at least know where it fits within the films, even if it's not designed to follow them per se.
So they are their own canon, an AU, or were never canon in the first place.
In all honesty what did it in for me was the predators dying really fast, though I didn't mind it when I was young but now I imagine what if they lived?
Oh and the alliance at the end.....F**K DAT
Paul Anderson also said on that dvd that the Predators in P1 and P2 were even younger and less experienced than the teenagers in his AVP and no one takes that seriously.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Dec 09, 2015, 01:09:47 AM
Paul Anderson also said on that dvd that the Predators in P1 and P2 were even younger and less experienced than the teenagers in his AVP and no one takes that seriously.
As much as I love AVP, I've always thought inversely about that statement.
Quote from: DerelictShip on Dec 08, 2015, 09:54:59 PM
In all honesty what did it in for me was the predators dying really fast, though I didn't mind it when I was young but now I imagine what if they lived?
That bothers me even less now. Because I think it represented the creatures quite rightly. Chopper went down due to the Alien's stealth (which is how it should be) and Celtic went down due to his own arrogance (which is another showcase of getting the Predator's right).
In-character or not, it's still pissweak when you've had 14 years of expectations and you kill two of your three Predators in the space of 10 minutes. It's part of the third act feeling rushed: 55 minutes of excruciating build to 30 minutes of rushed action.
Just saying that correct representation is one of the things I actually like now-a-days. I completely agree that the conflict comes too late and rushed though.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Dec 08, 2015, 09:40:39 PM
So they are their own canon, an AU, or were never canon in the first place.
I think it was made to fit into the timeline, but it wasn't intended that future Alien and Predator films should adhere to their continuity.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 09, 2015, 08:15:46 AM
Quote from: DerelictShip on Dec 08, 2015, 09:54:59 PM
In all honesty what did it in for me was the predators dying really fast, though I didn't mind it when I was young but now I imagine what if they lived?
That bothers me even less now. Because I think it represented the creatures quite rightly. Chopper went down due to the Alien's stealth (which is how it should be) and Celtic went down due to his own arrogance (which is another showcase of getting the Predator's right).
I get where you are coming, maybe from a biological standpoint or logical standpoint the predators should have died like that.
However, it's a film, it's not real. They should've kept at least one of the other predators alive to develop the story more and create more fight scenes rather than using scar for the rest of the movie.
If they did that then the film probably would have been twice as long, twice the action, and twice as good.....not to mention a lot more fans would have evolved.
Quote from: overthere on Dec 05, 2015, 12:25:08 PMWhat makes AvP bad?
For me, it's mostly the the fact that the characters are all so amazingly bland and forgettable. The only one who stands out at all is Weyland, but even then that's only because it's Lance Henriksen playing him, and not because of how he's written. I mean, come on, this guy is the founder of Weyland-Yutani, he should be far more memorable than what we got!
The rest of the cast are all varying degrees of faceless or bad cliché. ("Hello, I'm knock-off Ripley, except I'm also black because that blatantly makes me my own character." "Hello, I'm white male Vasquez, because I'm an angry soldier.") Of course, you can be cliché in a movie, so long as you have personality. But none of the characters in the film did.
To make things worse, all the dialogue - especially the dialogue that is attempting to be "cool" - is just crap, and the fact the film had its fair share of bad acting only served to make the dialogue problem worse.
More than anything, those things kill it for me, because I honestly give zero shits about the people I'm watching, which means I give zero shits about how the film turns out.
What was bad for the movie was:
- One sided matches. A xeno takes out three Predators like it was nothing was crap IMO
- The movie is very dull to sit through for the second time. Each viewing wants me to put me to alseep.
- All of the human characters suck and are forgettable.
- The girl and Predator bond with each other was bad since there was no chemistry with each other
- The acting was bad and the dialogue sucked
- The PG-13 rating hurt the movie too given that the series needs to be dark and violent.
It's just a very poor film with an admittedly interesting and quite original concept, and that for me is the most disappointing thing. The idea of Aliens and Predators fighting it out in a dark, mysterious, shape shifting pyramid is an appealing idea and far removed from anything we've seen before. But aside from this core idea, everything else is terrible.
First off, the present day earth setting is completely pointless. I believe this was John Davis' wish and part of the reason he ended up going with Paul Anderson's script is because it fitted this idea. Straight away this is a kick in the teeth to the character of Ripley who lost everything precious to her and even her own life in an effort to prevent the alien ever reaching Earth. But then again, the Earth setting is a false threat because the story is set 2000 feet underground an island off the coast of Antarctica, meaning the Aliens have literally no way of ever reaching civilisation. Paul Anderson even said himself that his story was set in Antarctica because it was the closest thing on Earth to a hostile alien planet, which kind of begs the question why it wasn't just set on an alien planet to begin with. Throughout the film, Lex whinges about them not letting the alien reach the surface otherwise 'everything everwhere could die'. This threat is meaningless and therefore as an audience we simply don't care.
The characters are all poor, which is a common trait of any Paul Anderson script. People have already mentioned how dull and uninteresting they are and therefore we simply don't care. Some of their actions are ridiculous too. Can someone tell me how Quinn, in the middle of a blazing snowstorm at night, somehow spots a fully-clocked Celtic Predator standing unmoving on a roof 30 feet above him?
The creatures. I thoroughly dislike ADI's work in this franchise. Their Predators are just beyond awful and are just completely laughable when compared to P1 and P2. They are far too bulky to the point of looking overweight and you can clearly see their wrist blades and dreadlocks are made of rubber. They are so far removed from what came before it's untrue. Why was the vision changed? Why the triple heart beat removed and the sound effects changed? They are such a staple trait of the character. When the Predators run in this film they look as though they are going to keel over from a heart attack. Where is the cunning, graceful and imposing creature that stalked and cut down Dillon from P1? These creatures are not even distant relatives. And of course, I'm not even going to mention their faces or the ridiculously big plasma casters.
As for the Alien, again I'm not a fan of ADI's work and there is too much needless CGI when practical effects could have been used.
The pacing. Sil was spot on with his reasoning. 55 minutes of slow burn is all well and good but then the movie literally ends 30 minutes later just as it gets started. And to have 55 minutes of slow burn and still not give a shit about any of the characters takes some doing.
The team up. It just doesn't work. The concept may be fine on a comic book page, but it should be kept off the screen in my opinion.
The fights. The main fight between Celtic and Grid just looked like two piss heads having a brawl in a back alleyway. It was so poorly choreographed.
Lack of blood. Then CGI blood. PG-13 rating.
And for all the hate that AVPR deservedly gets, the story of aliens infecting a present day American subburb with teenagers running round with guns is a result of that pointless present-day earth setting the first film gave us.
WHAT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN. (Wishful thinking I know)
Set about 30 years after Alien 3. WY satellites are actively looking for traces of the alien. The heat bloom should have been found from a pyramid located deep beneath a jungle planet with plenty of nearby human colonies so that the threat of the alien getting out is actually valid.
Charles Bishop Weyland should have been Michael Bishop.
The archeologists should have been accompanied by colonial marines.
Giger's Alien vs. Winston's Predator.
R rating.
Film 60 minutes longer.
PG-13 rating for AVP makes no sense. Freddy vs. Jason was allow to be rated R and that movie came out a year earlier then AVP.
Different studio, different concerns. Lower age ratings allow for more people to see the film.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Dec 12, 2015, 12:24:20 PMWhy was the vision changed?
Because Paul Anderson told them to. He was responsible for how the creatures looked, not ADI.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Dec 14, 2015, 08:59:17 AM
Because Paul Anderson told them to. He was responsible for how the creatures looked, not ADI.
Yeah I know. But that's the point. Why change it at all when it is such an iconic trait for the character?
Wasn't it supposed to be because our IR had actually advanced? That IR in real life looked like that now? Not that that matters in-world.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Dec 14, 2015, 03:28:30 PMYeah I know. But that's the point. Why change it at all when it is such an iconic trait for the character?
Well, quite. My point was you can't really lay the blame for it on ADI. They always seem to get a bad rap for how things looked in
AVP and I never really think it's fair. It was mostly down to the direction they were told to go and the relatively restrained budget they had to work with.
And they fact they aren't Stan Winston.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Dec 14, 2015, 03:39:13 PM
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Dec 14, 2015, 03:28:30 PMYeah I know. But that's the point. Why change it at all when it is such an iconic trait for the character?
Well, quite. My point was you can't really lay the blame for it on ADI. They always seem to get a bad rap for how things looked in AVP and I never really think it's fair. It was mostly down to the direction they were told to go and the relatively restrained budget they had to work with.
And they fact they aren't Stan Winston.
I wasn't specifically blaming ADI for the Predator vision, just Anderson and that design decision in general. But I do think ADI deserve all the criticism they get for the Predators in AVP simply because they look bad. There's no excuse for plastic wrist blades and rubber dreadlocks at the end of the day, and I won't even go into detail about Scar's face. Woodruff and Gillis talk extensively about how technology has improved in the making of docs and their book they released and yet their their final product is vastly inferior to something that was cooked up last minute in 1986.
Whether you blame Anderson or ADI, the bottom line is the Predators are practically unrecognisable from their counterparts they are based on. They have all the grace-like quality of a sumo wrestler and that was the saddest thing after waiting 14 years for their big-screen return. At the very least I can watch Requiem and believe Wolf is actually a Predator. I can't do that with Celtic, Scar or Chopper because they are too different in the way they look and the way they behave.
I think the movie was okay. I would give it 2 stars. To me, this means it delivered as an interesting enough movie to watch through, from beginning to end, and stay interested. It could have done much more, say if the plot had been developed more, and they took their time with the pyramid and the puzzles there. They created a great environment, and then kind of just settled for a few cliché action sequences where the predators were portrayed much weaker than I would have liked or expected. These can be disturbing problems depending on your point of view. I didn't mind the alliance between the predator and the woman, though. You take something like that in stride, with the predator regarding her as "brave", and to her credit, she kills one of the aliens. The predators honor courage and strength. They don't take away from people, just because they are puny or primitive. It was an interesting concept how they said the predators were once worshiped by humans on Earth, but that was a problem for me, overall. They could have done this movie anywhere, at any time, without having to suggest such a backstory.
I enjoyed AvP-R more than AvP
Not because I'm sore that Grid kills 2 predators (Scar scores at least 4 direct xenomorph kills...so objectively, the predators do OK via Scar's passable performance)
My dislike stems from...
1. How bad the predators look...their faces, their bulkiness, their lumbering movement
2. The stupid pyramid culture thrust upon the predators
3. Inconsistencies...especially how the spear is perfectly acid-proof...but the wristblades melt like butter?
4. Cringe-worthy team up...was half-expecting a kiss between Scar and Lex
I was looking at the Paul Anderson preproduction "pitch" that he did. I remember it like it was yesterday when that video first came out. It was very exciting.
Honestly, looking at his concept art, there was quite a bit of promise there. It had a very The Thing vibe, and there was quite a potential there. He obviously gave the thing a lot of thought, and he at least did some homework with regards to the source material. (I never take a director's word for that they actually are "big fans" though he did steal from Alien/s so much in his previous movies that it's entirely possible he is a big Alien/Predator fan.)
Biggest problem with the film is the directorial execution and the human characters. Paul Anderson really sucks when it comes to characterization. He also sucks when it comes to restraint in terms of his direction and editing. Way too many shots are done to be "cool." So much slow motion, and a lot of it does look incredibly dumb. Especially any shot with Scar and Lex running in slow motion. There must have been better ways to frame and shoot that. he also has a really bad problem with cutting wayyy too much. I know he had a rating limitation imposed on him, but even still he just shreds the tension out of a lot of the scenes by cutting every couple second and never giving the audience a chance to really immerse themselves in the atmosphere.
The Predators, again, in concept his ideas were actually sound. The idea of the Predators wearing more battle armor to fight aliens? Nothing unreasonable in that. It even originates with the original comic. So props to him on that. The problem is execution. In practice, the Predator's look bulky and squat. They lose most of their grace. The alien's don't fair much better. They're lumpy, gooey, screechy caricatures of themselves.
AvP has some okay moments, but honestly even the bread and butter of what AvP is all about - that being the actual fights between the two species - leave a lot to be desired. The only mano-e-mano fight is so up and down. There's some great moments, and then there are those moments that just look absolutely stupid and awful.
For me it comes down to two things. There are obviously others but these two things are what makes it bad in my opinion:
1. Everyone has said it - characterisation. Human characters are terrible and uninteresting.
2. Alien/Predator back story - this is the single most disappointing thing about this film. Terrible Terrible Terrible.
I agree. Its not THAT bad at all :-X
Main problem With both avp films are the human charecters... Though this REALY conserns the second film more than the first.
Its OK 5/10
Oh come on, AVP is at least a 5.1/10.
Honestly I think it's a 6.5/10.It had a decent concept, as best as a AVP movie could have probably. It had decent production values and the acting wasn't bad. The poor thing just didn't do the vs part all that well. The Queen battle and team up, yea cheesy as hell was at least fun.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Apr 21, 2016, 06:29:01 AMIt had decent production values and the acting wasn't bad.
Some of the acting was crap... The Italian guy as Sebastian was routinely quite awful. It didn't help that most of his dialogue was pants.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 21, 2016, 07:49:07 AM
Quote from: whiterabbit on Apr 21, 2016, 06:29:01 AMIt had decent production values and the acting wasn't bad.
Some of the acting was crap... The Italian guy as Sebastian was routinely quite awful. It didn't help that most of his dialogue was pants.
Yea, but see it from my point of view as an American. That was the stereotypical portrayal of an Italian guy. It's the same with avpr awful acting, they nailed dumb hick town usa.
AvP is f**king rubbish. Don't excuse it. Don't look back and think, "aww it's not that bad." No. It is bad. It's really bad. 0/10 is what I give it.
I remember the last time I watched it being dull and boring.
AvP is really hard to sit through these days. It's 55 minutes before the fights start and it's over 30 minutes later. Those first 55 minutes are spent with people we don't really give a shit about doing shit we don't care about and it just feels like the movie throwing roadblocks at us until the main event starts.
That being said, still more watchable than AvPR.
Quote from: PsyKore on Apr 21, 2016, 11:23:37 PMAvP is f**king rubbish. Don't excuse it. Don't look back and think, "aww it's not that bad." No. It is bad. It's really bad. 0/10 is what I give it.
It's bad, but no way is it a 0/10 movie. It had at least
some merit. The setting at least is very visually appealing.
I would give the first 6/10, AvPR 3/10
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 22, 2016, 07:44:58 AM
Quote from: PsyKore on Apr 21, 2016, 11:23:37 PMAvP is f**king rubbish. Don't excuse it. Don't look back and think, "aww it's not that bad." No. It is bad. It's really bad. 0/10 is what I give it.
It's bad, but no way is it a 0/10 movie. It had at least some merit. The setting at least is very visually appealing.
I stand by my 0/10. It is absolutely awful. Cringe-worthy, embarrassing, insulting, awkward and downright bad.
One merit could be Lance Henrickson, he's good as to be expected, but it still doesn't change the movie.
If you're interested, AvP:R is -10/10.
What i hate about those movies for instance, they show a lot of predator stuff like the homeworld (avp2) and like the ship that fires through the ice thats like stuff we dont need to see if it aint done correctly and it isnt done correctly it looks like a scene from Captain Power back in the day, a pred sitting on a throne waiting for this and that, i would rather see that they are some space pirates or creatures that nomadding through the galaxy with a code and law they live by,
and upgrade every once in a while by tech they find or steal from other species, not a homeworld where they live like gods and sit on throne to wait for a 911 call in the galaxy.
Then predators only go to very hot places, entering a facility somewhere in the middle of Hoth nahh not gonna happen,
his primaire helmet vision is about heat signatures for f**k sake doesnt that ring a bell besides the extreme hot places he went to before, MR Anderson?
and then the humans go in like a bunch of numbnuts, and the chambers shift and the queen gets defrosted etc.
Come one you got 70 milion dollars budget, Predators got only 40 milion Prometheus got 130 Aliens even had 18 milion dollars to spend, and he came up with this, im surprised we didnt got Mila Jovovich as the leading female role.
Imo you got two options, or you do it on a unkown planet where it hot and you have a human exploration group with a bunch of marines that are there to assist in need, and they are investigating some kind of alien esque settlement or structure similar tot the space jockey's derelict crash site but with even more mystery to it and weird findings and a new weird looking xeno that is nasty or mean, and then you have humans f**king each other over and you have the overseer a predator or maybe two but the second predator shouldnt be revealed to later on, some sort of teacher to the younger one.
the movie we got wasnt even comic book worthy
oh yeah i forgot option two is you just go back to f**king Hadleys Hope.
I think that windebieste's map, Under the Hunter's Moon, makes me love AvP more than I should. I honestly try not to think of that when it comes to reviewing the movie. ::)
I guess I am the black sheep in this site as I kinda grew to like it. try as you might but how many of us were excited that an AvP movie was being made? who here was caught up in the hype? I know I was. the alien and predator finally on the big screen about to go head on into an acid blood drenching, Wristblade slashing, bone shattering battle. and despite our complaints. the movie DID what it promised, wether we like how it turned out or how bad the effects were. the movie promised the alien and predator to fight for the first time which it delivered Alien vs Predator.
now I did say I like the film. but because I like B Monster movies with guys in dodgy rubber monster costumes overacting the creatures movements to where it's awkward. I like the film but only for what it is. while I don't like Anderson's director style and his "Make everything bigger!" Mentality, I still saw a guy who wanted to entertain us and was still a fan of at least one of the series.
I do have some issues with the film like anyone else. I hate the Predator designs. they are too bulky, disportionant, and the colors are bland and terrible. and when you take Scar's mask off it's obvious a rubber mask. I don't like the over sized armor and Plasma casters and it makes me feel like they're "compensating for something" if you catch my drift.
and the aliens. OH MY GOD don't get me started on the aliens. Tom woodruff is NOT an alien suit actor. they need to give it to someone else and for the love of all that is unholy they need to trash the A:R aliens. I've always saw that alien design as too fleshy, the first three aliens had an exoskeleton, they looked armored and well protected. like a predator smacks the thing with a spear and the spear is more likely to break before the alien's armor does. the A:R designs feel floppy, soft, and weak. they look like wet sponges flopping about. they aren't scary, and I always see the damn things in fanart and websites.
those are my major gripes of the film. I honestly just skip over the human and story parts cuz we all know that arguement. I would like to see the studios drop trying to reboot the alien and predator franchises and give AvP another chance. reboot it give it the treatment they did with the Dark Knight, make the films dark with a three film story arc. make the story unique instead of trying to copy the comics or make it a sequel to the other films. No more ignoring Predator 2 or A:R. just make AvP it's own series seporate. an alternate universe. I don't care if i has marines or not. just make it unique, fun, and all kinds of crazy crap that's awesome. that's the problem with the A/P Franchise. instead of making it's own thing the movies instead try and copy what was done before. and when they do try something new (predator 2 being in a city instead of a jungle I.E.) the fans shoot it down and hate it.
Anyways before I continue my old man rant. i will say I'll acknowledge the fact the film has it's issues. but I like it as a dumb popcorn flick. that's all.
Quote from: TITANOSAUR on May 20, 2016, 06:44:33 AM
I guess I am the black sheep in this site as I kinda grew to like it.
I've always loved the film. So... you're not the only black sheep.
I think there's a lot of fun to be had in AvP. And the hype leading up to the film was just great fun. It still turned out not to be the AvP we wanted nor was it a great film. I can still watch and enjoy it though but I'm holding out for my real AvP.
I've come to enjoy AVP as a piece of trashy entertainment if I'm in the right mood, but if it wasn't a part of the Alien/Predator franchise I doubt I'd ever have bothered to watch it again. It's not a good movie.
Considering what it could've been, it's incredibly forgettable.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 20, 2016, 08:53:55 AM
I've come to enjoy AVP as a piece of trashy entertainment if I'm in the right mood, but if it wasn't a part of the Alien/Predator franchise I doubt I'd ever have bothered to watch it again. It's not a good movie.
Considering what it could've been, it's incredibly forgettable.
That's a perfect assessment. I do think the film gets some representation of the creatures right though. And that's something I've only recently come to appreciate.
Ian Whyte wasn't bad as the predators but he really did an amazing job as Wolf Pred.
Woodruff's performance never convinced me, it worked for Alien 3 since the creature acted different enough. but he's too short and just makes the alien into an oversized raptor cockroach.
AvP : 7,25/10 ; AvPR : ...have to watch it again, I fell asleep the first time ;D
I'd rather rewatch AvP than Predator 2. The good points of this movie for me is the setting, some pleasant effects for the eyes, a quite good pacing (although sometimes a bit fast), and having a tight match between the Aliens and the Predators.
What doesn't work : aside from forcing 2 different creatures into a movie, I'd say globally it is 'over the top' : The interspecie fight doesn't seem too realistic (it is like comparing Prowrestling and MMA) but the Predators are more faithful to the image I had of them ;
Another example : too many aliens going on top of the pyramid in a weird manner, followed by an unreal predator explosion. Visually entertaining ok, but... Having Alexa depicted at first as a strong woman only to exaggerating her fear afterwards.. her managing to escape the Queen etc...
The chestburster scene was also a bit cheap. It is crucial to make it right, such a legendary scene as this one. Conclusion : I'm not another black sheep, but a grey one :P
It was a mediocre film.
Opinions tend to clash depending on how high one's expectation is and/or how faithful one is to the franchise.
Other than that the general consensus is that it was poor in pacing, scripting and screen performance. Which is why the PG13 rating was a good direction to take it in seeing as younger audiences in majority would condone such qualities in a film. It was merely a summer blockbuster created for profitable gains and it succeeded, that's it.
AvP Requiem on the other hand... :laugh:
As for Anderson's AvP (2004), I really like it! :D
10 Likes:
I like the great miniature sets (whaling station during destruction and the pyramid exterior)
I like Lance Henriksen playing Bishop Weyland (great and logical deal for him being the template for the android Bishop in Aliens and Alien³)
I like Sanaa Lathan (yeah, she's hot AND can still convince as the tough and resolute guide she is meant to be - but also somehow frightened in the right moments)
I like the team up between Woods and the remaining Predator (even the honor given to her at the end was just a fantastic idea)
I like Harald Kloser's Soundtrack (still his best work so far)
I like how the warrior aliens freed the Queen (besides Aliens and Alien: Resurrection, I never saw acting the Xenos so clever and tactical)
I like the finale at the whaling station with the Alien Queen (and the improvised manner how they finally got rid of her)
I like how the Queen got her screentime finale (as a fan of Cameron's fantastic Aliens I really appreciate such rare opportunities)
I like the last Predator depicted as some kind of tragic hero in the end
I like Evan Bremner, he's just a funny and very sympathetic guy
Bonus point:
I like the penguin what spooked Bremner (just sweet) ;D
Enough pros on my record to like it ... ;)
It's at least an enjoyable and entertaining movie, featuring two of my favorite movie characters at once clashing each other ... It's my second King Kong vs Godzilla! :D
As for AvPR ... no comment! ::)
Quote from: WY Corporate on May 23, 2016, 10:56:15 AM
It's at least an enjoyable and entertaining movie, featuring two of my favorite movie characters at once clashing each other ... It's my second King Kong vs Godzilla! :D
That's how I look at AVP, because well.. I grew up watching those old Kaiju films, especially the Showa era Godzilla films and King Kong vs Godzilla happened to be one of them. Maybe it's this childhood influence which allowed me to enjoy the film.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on May 24, 2016, 08:04:02 PM
Quote from: WY Corporate on May 23, 2016, 10:56:15 AM
It's at least an enjoyable and entertaining movie, featuring two of my favorite movie characters at once clashing each other ... It's my second King Kong vs Godzilla! :D
That's how I look at AVP, because well.. I grew up watching those old Kaiju films, especially the Showa era Godzilla films and King Kong vs Godzilla happened to be one of them. Maybe it's this childhood influence which allowed me to enjoy the film.
Same with me here ;)
(Btw, King Kong vs Godzilla is at best enjoyable in its original japanese cut! It is one of my most favorite films ... ;D )
Oh man, AvP and AvP:R are the perfect saturdaynight beer and chips movies and some friends who love Alien and Predator. The first one is ok-ish, despite having some really bad moments as well. So, when you start your beers and chips, you're still actually watching the film, but also having some laughs and commenting on it.
By the time your start the second one, make sure you already had three beers, and start the second big bag of chips. ;) After that fourth beer kicks in, you're all enjoying the bad gore, horrible acting bad lighting. You're not even really watching it anymore, you're just having a hell of a good time with friends that love Alien and Predator but that can still bash AvP:R.
Although I'll admit.... I liked Wolf, and the PredAlien looked ok.
^
So in other words regard them like I do when I see a bad movie on TV.
What is bad? I LOVE Predator. But, when I compare the acting to something like The King's Garden, it's not that good. ;) Bad has several definitions. So yeah, I'd call AvP:R a bad movie, but still entertaining. But,compare it with a piece of dung called American Ninja 4, it's a friggin Oscar winner. There are levels of bad.
Watching this I felt like I was watching a movie for a younger audience, which is not the impression you should be getting from either franchise. The characters were bland and unmemorable, with the lead being the predictable Ripley-Lite and Lance Henriksen looking like he is just there for the paycheck. Gone are the glimpses of the Alien, now nothing is left to the imagination as a pumped up Predator smashes a Xeno through stone pillars in a sweeping cam shot. Felt like a cutscene in a beat-em-up.
With the walls moving every 15 minutes or so, you know that it is far too soon that the Aliens are fully grown and ready to fight, but it happens anyway just to get the namesake match rolling. The exposition of the Yautja's history felt lazy and thrown in, and everything seemed very dumbed down. The environments in the temple feel like sets, even though they are miles underground with only torches, everything is very lit. Which is a shame. It would be much better if the Aliens were coming out the darkness to kill, similar to the dark claustrophobia of The Descent, and being able to see the lights of the Pred's Battle armour and shoulder cannon in the pitch black would have been cool. But it was very tame. Not much if any blood, having a chestburster rip through your ribcage made the characters look like they had bad ingestion rather than Kane-style gasps and screams.
It was an interesting idea to have an Alien with a recognisable injury to make things more personal, and I did like Grid a bit.
The CG Queen battle at the end was a bit too Jurassic Park. Yes, she is a threat, but she seems much bigger and now can charge through pretty much anything. This Queen would have just rushed smacked into Ripley's powerloader and thrown it right against the opposite wall.
The ending where the Predalien chestburster pops out to 'DUN-DUN-DUN' had me rolling my eyes and made me shrink at the possibility of more Vs movies to come.
I know this is regarded as canon, but in my world this sits alongside the 2nd as two very well financed fan fiction movies.
Quote from: Bughunter S. Thomson on Jun 11, 2016, 09:06:59 PM
Lance Henriksen looking like he is just there for the paycheck.
Come to think of it, every other actor felt like that too.
Quote from: Thomas H. on Jun 10, 2016, 07:51:24 PMOh man, AvP and AvP:R are the perfect saturdaynight beer and chips movies and some friends who love Alien and Predator.
They don't even entertain me on that level. If I get pissed around
AVP:R I'm more likely to pick a drunken fight with my TV than anything.
I don't think I've ever seen you comment on the first AvP. What are your thoughts on that?
I used to hate it, but I've mellowed to it somewhat recently. I still think it's pretty rubbish overall, but there are one or two little things that I quite like (the setting's undeniably neat, even if the time period's all wrong) and it's not too bad as a trashy piece of entertainment.
I still think it's substantially worse than any of the other Alien or Predator films though.
You don't watch AVP:R, you listen to it. It's too dark to watch. It's like an old-time radio program.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 14, 2016, 10:07:51 AM
I used to hate it, but I've mellowed to it somewhat recently. I still think it's pretty rubbish overall, but there are one or two little things that I quite like (the setting's undeniably neat, even if the time period's all wrong) and it's not too bad as a trashy piece of entertainment.
I still think it's substantially worse than any of the other Alien or Predator films though.
So you'd rate it below Resurrection?
I would rate AvP below 3/4th of Resurrection myself, but when the newborn enters the movie, its hard to watch at all.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 15, 2016, 02:34:45 PM
I would rate AvP below 3/4th of Resurrection myself, but when the newborn enters the movie, its hard to watch at all.
Well the director is known for his romantic comedy's.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 15, 2016, 01:00:34 PMSo you'd rate it below Resurrection?
Yeah. They both have problems but I think
Resurrection is more successful at what it's trying to be (even if what it's trying to be is the wrong kind of movie).
AVP constantly feels like a film that's trying way too hard to be "hip" and "cool" and almost always failing. And good God the dialogue...
AR had a pretty good beginning and went ok until the newborn barfpuke. The location is 10 times better than AVP aboard a huge cool Military Spaceship. Having said that, 1000 feet below a pyramid in Antartica was probably the best location one can find on Earth, for an AVP story...AVPR sucks, don't even want to talk about that thing.
Quote from: Nostromo on Jun 15, 2016, 11:12:38 PM
AR had a pretty good beginning and went ok until the newborn barfpuke. The location is 10 times better than AVP aboard a huge cool Military Spaceship. Having said that, 1000 feet below a pyramid in Antartica was probably the best location one can find on Earth, for an AVP story...AVPR sucks, don't even want to talk about that thing.
AVPR Whats AVPR?
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 15, 2016, 09:56:30 PM
Yeah. They both have problems but I think Resurrection is more successful at what it's trying to be (even if what it's trying to be is the wrong kind of movie). AVP constantly feels like a film that's trying way too hard to be "hip" and "cool" and almost always failing. And good God the dialogue...
That's fair enough. Completely valid points. I don't know where I'd rank them in relation to each other. I've found myself capable of enjoying AvP more lately. I don't know what it is - I can see just the positives in it a bit more.
Every time I see that bullet-time facehugger shot, I cringe. Bullet-time was such a product of its time, and looks out of place in that universe.
Quote from: Mister Skeezler on Jun 16, 2016, 11:30:34 AM
Every time I see that bullet-time facehugger shot, I cringe. Bullet-time was such a product of its time, and looks out of place in that universe.
Considering a cardinal rule of horror is that less is more, bullet time definitely shouldn't exist in either franchise. Especially since when Bullet time appeared in any other movie, it was either a parody (Kung Pow, Scary movie) or a cheap rip off. Bullet time belongs to The Matrix.
Anyone feel like trolling the Strause Bros? I'll offer some comics.
Quote from: Nostromo on Jun 16, 2016, 02:46:00 PM
Anyone feel like trolling the Strause Bros? I'll offer some comics.
Defo
Quote from: Bughunter S. Thomson on Jun 16, 2016, 12:48:00 PM
Considering a cardinal rule of horror is that less is more
I knew one guy who thought the first
Predator was "lame" because he's invisible most of time.
Quote from: Nostromo on Jun 15, 2016, 11:12:38 PM
AR had a pretty good beginning and went ok until the newborn barfpuke. The location is 10 times better than AVP aboard a huge cool Military Spaceship. Having said that, 1000 feet below a pyramid in Antartica was probably the best location one can find on Earth, for an AVP story...AVPR sucks, don't even want to talk about that thing.
I dare not say this..... There are some shots in AvPR that I actually quite liked, action-wise. I liked Wolf. The PredAlien was cool to me, but this was the first time I ever saw a PredAlien. The Predator homeworld was fun, even though we only saw it for a little bit.
But yeah, the plot, the acting, the dialogue, the actual quoting of the famous 'Get to the chopper' line.....Never mind.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 16, 2016, 07:48:02 AM
I've found myself capable of enjoying AvP more lately. I don't know what it is - I can see just the positives in it a bit more.
This pleases me to hear where... the inverse could be said about me, surprisingly.
I saw the film the other day and while I still do enjoy it, and would like to see that storyline continued, branched off from what we're getting now from both Alien and Predator franchises... I saw a lot of reasons why people don't like the movie. Some shots of the Predators didn't make them look very good. Don't get me wrong, I love the armor design and everything but yeah...
Either that or.. I'm just not in love with it all as I used to be anymore.
I think Huda said it all but I will say that the first film at least had a chance to be good if it was executed correctly, which it obviously wasn;t.
I disagree that film was too long, if anything it could have done with an another twenty odd minutes to help with character development. Only thing needed then is a good script and not taking artistic licences with real world facts because it makes the film look stupid.
The thing that annoyed me too was the lore breaking life-cycle, it was way too fast. I think one character was impregnated and burst within less than 10 minutes.
I agree with you to an extent Hicks, about the Predator behavior, but I disagree about Celtic, while they are indeed arrogant and over-confident creatures, they were never supposed to be suicidely so.
It does makes sense when it comes to hunting humans because they are inferior and so the Pred's demise comes from underestimating the humans but Xenomorphs are their physical equal or superior, so being cocky on a Xeno hunt is supremely stupid to say the least, a good hunter learns all they can about their quarry, evidently these predators didn't.
Quote from: windebieste on Dec 05, 2015, 11:55:40 PM
On the other hand, the story itself is an interesting take on the old 'Boys Own' adventure style of material that authors of the likes of Doyle, Burroughs, Lovecraft and Haggard popularised so many decades ago. Each of these writers made their mark on popular culture by sending groups of explorers to previously unexplored parts of the world and the fantastic adventures their characters had there.
If the story just HAD to take place on earth, then this is what the filmmakers should've embraced. The same plot could've just as easily taken place in the early 1900s in some remote, unexplored jungle. This would've given the film a real Lost World vibe, and the jungle setting would've given an extra layer of authenticity in regard to the first Predator film.
In my opinion they should make a movie based in the early ages,not with humans and based only on Aliens and Predators.Or a movie how they appeared and how they were viewed throughout the history
Give us AVP 3 so we can point out all of it's flaws too
is a mediocre, kinda stupid, generic and formulaic movie that is just bland and senseless, but compared to the sequel, is a masterpiece
I actually rewatched the film recently and I think I really, really like this film more now than I have had for years before. For the record, I watched it as a youngster and loved it, but seeing it in context as a grown-up kind of altered my vision of it. As part of either series, or as a link to both, it doesn't work for one simple reason -- as a concept, the "VS" idea is far more pulp than either Alien or Predator because it's done for the sake of pitting two popular film characters against each other.
So the movie, being an adaptation of the comic, starts with the "wrong" route and cannot steer in a "right" direction that surely and inequivocably fits both series, also because they have 'tonal rules' that are difficult to conciliate into a single narrative. For example, by making the Alien the prey of the Predator and thus having the human characters just caught in the crossfire robs the film of the 'being hunted' aspect of the Predator films (which is their entire point).
But what did the movie want to do? It wanted to adapt the comic -- and that's what it should be seen as: a comic book movie that channels the two iconic characters into its own version by the way the comic book portrayed them. Aliens and Predators become stylized characters: big talons for the Aliens; big blades, big guns, more muscles for the Predators. They're not the original creatures, they're how a comic book "mind" would see them: exaggerated, pulpified.
The film acquires newfound quality and is much more enjoyable when the intentions at its roots are considered and it is seen as an echoing homage rather than an actual part of the continuity of both series. AvP is a creature-feature-based comic book movie.
There are many great aspects to it: the story moves at lightning pace scene after scene; the photography (composition, colours, etc) and visual storytelling of it are nothing short of excellent; the special effects are top notch and to this day represent one of the industry's finest combinations of practical and digital effects; the score is also serviceable and memorable enough.
With that said, of course there are flaws to be found and those are mostly within the script. Cringeworthy lines like "my experts tell me... it's a pyramid" and underdeveloped human characters seem to suggest an unfinished script, a draft that absolutely needed a couple or more passes before being subjected to production. The team-up also represents a jarring tonal shift within the narrative (the 'running together in slow-motion' shots are downright embarrassing).
Personally, the good parts ultimately outweigh the bad parts, and I really enjoy the film for what it has to offer. It's a fun ride.
I agree with you on some points Omegamorph, but disagree with you on some. I think that the first film does fit in the continuities of the Alien and Predator franchises, and this is solely my opinion and I think that this is the only disagreement that I have. But the major, indisputable truth and agreement I share with you is this one:
Quote from: Omegamorph on Dec 13, 2016, 06:29:48 PM
AvP is a creature-feature-based comic book movie.
These are the movies which I grew up with, having watched films like King Kong vs Godzilla, and as Mike Richardson of Dark Horse even said, even made some comparisons to. It's just one of those movies that you're not supposed to have deep meaning in, or have some deep thought invoking occuring. No, it's a slobberknocker and it's so sad in this day and age-- movies like creature-features which are supposed to be fun, are seen as something bad. I mean if King Kong vs Godzilla, or any of the Showa era Godzilla films were made now, they'd be met with ridicule.
Quote from: Omegamorph on Dec 13, 2016, 06:29:48 PM
Personally, the good parts ultimately outweigh the bad parts, and I really enjoy the film for what it has to offer. It's a fun ride.
Exactly. My sentiments exactly, and I think this is something that needs to be looked at... and embraced.
My main frustration with AvP was some of the idiotic dialog that made me roll my eyes. For example, when Sebastian asks Lex what the bones are at the whaling station (which he was just briefed on) would always get under my skin. Now I just laugh at it in good fun. It still makes the character look dumb.
Hunter's moon.
Hunter's moon.
Mmm.
Mmm. :)
Good summation of what is wrong with this movie.
That scene would actually be fine if they simply cut it before they burst out laughing for no good reason.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 14, 2016, 12:07:08 PM
Hunter's moon.
Hunter's moon.
Mmm.
Mmm. :)
Good summation of what is wrong with this movie.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Dec 14, 2016, 01:33:18 PM
That scene would actually be fine if they simply cut it before they burst out laughing for no good reason.
Love that scene, good character moment. A little cheesy, but I'll take it over any of the dialogue in AVPR. At least the actors have some charisma.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 14, 2016, 06:04:10 PMAt least the actors have some charisma.
See, I just don't feel that at all. None of them have any charisma whatsoever, except Henriksen and maybe Flannigan in the extended cut.
Not even them. Weyland and the Miller/ Verheiden are at least a little bit interesting before they get bumped off, though.
Never understood why a Weyland wasn't the main character in one of these movies. Weyland was a pivotal character in AvP but the movie sucks and he gets bumped off at the end of Act 2! Guy Pearce's was barely present.
I don't want morsels or low quality. We should've been given a hunk of entrepreneur with Prometheus!
Why? It kind of diminishes the idea of a faceless, monolithic corporation when you have its founder and CEO traipsing around in the middle of the adventure.
Transmitted from Zeta Reticuli.
Quote from: Mister Skeezler on Dec 20, 2016, 01:20:02 PM
Why? It kind of diminishes the idea of a faceless, monolithic corporation when you have its founder and CEO traipsing around in the middle of the adventure.
Transmitted from Zeta Reticuli.
It's the beginnings of WY. It turns faceless and monolithic by the time of Alien.
AVP wasn't the worst.
The dialogue was bad, so was the re-dubbing by the actors i.e the hunters moon part for example. Yeah the laughing part was just....well unnecessary and obviously forced. When Lex was falling down the chasm, there was an extra shot of her that was unnecessary as well.
Basically the flaws were:
* Characters being undeveloped.
* Dialogue at times.
* The actual fight which was basically a cat fight.
* Predator stupidity.
* Lore breaking elements (Which so far Defiance seems to have done worse)
* Inaccuracies in wild life, locations, cold temperatures, (Lex should have been dead) and the mayan calendar thing. Ice climbing scene etc I could go on.
* Short length. (the unrated film is 1 hour and 48 mins) today an average film is over two hours, If Anderson had added another half hour, he could perhaps developed the characters more and perhaps even avoided the lore breaking life-cycle.
* The rating..big time. Gore is not necessary to a film at all but changing the default tone of a franchise just to reach a large audience (which is greedy since the AVP fanbase as well anyone who knows of and likes the franchise should be enough) hurt the film, its takes away the disgust and horror barely anyone is visibly killed. This whole pg-rating is affecting a lot of R rated franchises and diluting them, Don't studios make enough money as it is? Greedy B*******.
* Predator and Alien designs. Predators were the worst designed.
The film does have some positives though, Paul's vision was not bad at all, I like the pyramid idea myself, I like how Charles is portrayed which is contrast to the over the top villains they became.
The execution of Paul's ideas is where it went wrong and the characters should have been more developed. Of course, it would have been better to just take from the comics more directly....
* PG-13 Rating
*Predator Human Team Up / Love Story / Stupid and Cringeworthy
* Fake Looking Predator Face
* Bulky Football Player looking Predator
* Stupid Over done Crap about the Pyramids. Seriously No One Cares about the Pyramids and Not Every Movie has To have BS About The Pyramids.
I really want to emphasize how annoying it is to see Pyramid BS in Every Dam Movie these days. It's Seriously over done and I'm really tired of it.
Despite AVP being a rather simple popcorn blockbuster, I had always enjoyed it, and way beyoond just that. Its good. Well, Perhaps good is a wrong word. "Fine" is more like it. I gotta give it a plus for at least having some kind of buildup which is almost nonexistant today. Again, I liked the opening and the general setup of this mystery. The awakening of the Queen I liked too. Predators' suiting up was idiotic
I saw AVP in theaters with friends and I must say I had fun and it was entertaining. What do I think of it now? Not much has changed. The first half of the movie I really, really like. I do. I think theres a cool buildup to the mystery and its nice that we dont get to see anything until about 30 min or more into the movie. I like the setting too - Antarctica is isolated with hostile environment - reminds me of LV and The Thing. And there are few of classic Alien motifs like a small isolated group and being stranded in one enclosed place. Long buildup (like the first 2 movies). False ending - in Alien , we think the alien blew up with the ship but appears in Narcissus. In Aliens we think the aliens were dusted but the Queen appears. In Alien 3 we think that runner was boiled but jumps up, and even in Resurection we think the aliens died with Betty but Omlet, I mean Newborn shows up. In AVP, the Queen appears after the pyramid and the aliens within it turns to history.The return of the Queen was also nice and the cinematography was good too. Once Predators appear tho it changes into a juvenile video game. Some really great shots and visuals in there too
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi13.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa277%2Flovegunner%2FAVP%2Favpqueen_zps772d55aa.png&hash=86f4a3510f09ed12619650d51fa18895d9f259e6)
(https://theiapolis.com/d4/hMO/i1UAX/k4/l1UTN/w1HC/alien-queen-mother.jpg)
I just can't get behind the film. It's become unwatchable for me. Especially when I go back and read the original comic, which does just about everything that the film does, only better. (The ONLY thing the film does better than the comic is trying to retain mystery with the Predator's by not showing a lot of them. If I were to adapt the comic into a movie, i'd leave out all the Predator-ship stuff.)
Quote from: StrangeShape on Jan 07, 2017, 04:54:55 AM
Despite AVP being a rather simple popcorn blockbuster, I had always enjoyed it, and way beyoond just that. Its good. Well, Perhaps good is a wrong word. "Fine" is more like it. I gotta give it a plus for at least having some kind of buildup which is almost nonexistant today. Again, I liked the opening and the general setup of this mystery. The awakening of the Queen I liked too. Predators' suiting up was idiotic
I saw AVP in theaters with friends and I must say I had fun and it was entertaining. What do I think of it now? Not much has changed. The first half of the movie I really, really like. I do. I think theres a cool buildup to the mystery and its nice that we dont get to see anything until about 30 min or more into the movie. I like the setting too - Antarctica is isolated with hostile environment - reminds me of LV and The Thing. And there are few of classic Alien motifs like a small isolated group and being stranded in one enclosed place. Long buildup (like the first 2 movies). False ending - in Alien , we think the alien blew up with the ship but appears in Narcissus. In Aliens we think the aliens were dusted but the Queen appears. In Alien 3 we think that runner was boiled but jumps up, and even in Resurection we think the aliens died with Betty but Omlet, I mean Newborn shows up. In AVP, the Queen appears after the pyramid and the aliens within it turns to history.The return of the Queen was also nice and the cinematography was good too. Once Predators appear tho it changes into a juvenile video game. Some really great shots and visuals in there too
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi13.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa277%2Flovegunner%2FAVP%2Favpqueen_zps772d55aa.png&hash=86f4a3510f09ed12619650d51fa18895d9f259e6)
https://theiapolis.com/d4/hMO/i1UAX/k4/l1UTN/w1HC/alien-queen-mother.jpg
Indeed, it is no where near as bad as Requiem and I do enjoy this movie as a popcorn one.
Paul did have some good ideas but they were poorly executed. The build up was a good idea but the film could have used an extra half hour to help build up character development since we hardly care about the characters or at all.
The dialogue could have been better and so could have details to real life facts about Antarctica and mayans.
The pyramid story is good imo and so is the concept of having to hunt the aliens in a enclosed environment where Aliens have the advantage.
The pg rating made the film suffer since the franchise is known for excessive violance and turning it into a movie that kids can watch is really low. Gore does not a film make but when the tone of a franchise is known and depending on a certain level of violence then it is needed.
The film's atmosphere was wrong too, more adventurous than horror, also the predator team up is a bit iffy, not a bad idea for survival reasons but it is how its done and somehow it spawned a lot of squicky fiction by the more depraved fans.
Personally I dislike the designs on both species, the Alien were to angular and pointing in their faces, and while they are intended to be skeletal,I found them too thin in the shoulder region....they looked squashed...plus no bio-mechanic design. ]
Predators don't need me explain what was wrong with them...
Verdict on this film is that it did have potential but it was not used.
Problem with these franchises is the balance between homages and new material. On one hand too many homages is bad as it is A, trying to gain nostalgia and B, a rehash. Lex is obviously supposed to a Ripley homage with her by the book attitude, then there characters called Dallas and a clean up crew Predator skins someone just coz etc. New material can be bad if it doesn't stick to continuity i.e Requiems egg barfing which arguably rendered the previous life-cycle redundant.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jan 07, 2017, 03:44:34 PM
The pyramid story is good imo and so is the concept of having to hunt the aliens in a enclosed environment where Aliens have the advantage.
I really do like the fact the pyramid shifts around too, it's a shame they didn't do more with it.
Ill quote a great post from someone from a different board
AVP is an underrated movie. I'm not saying it's a great film or a sci-fi rhinestone, but it gets slashed for everything while there are many areas where it really succeeds. As aforementioned, the setting couldn't have been better. It is not a rehash of what came before, yet it retains that same spirit. It's a place with no civilization or help around, and a place that looks like a setting from a horror movie. Which, ultimately it is. The Thing and The Shining proved that an isolated, windy winter environment can be extremely beneficial in a stories like those. It's cold, harsh, unfriendly and brings forward feelings of isolation, helplessness and terror.
The set designs are quite good and never go over the top. The pyramid is believable, and the hieroglyphs and chambers well designed. The colors are saturated, but not ashed. The navy blue hue fits the arctic feel.
The movie also seems to have a very large, epic scale thanks to production value of shooting in Europe.
The idea for the story is one that almost never fails. A team comes to investigate and finds shadows and ghosts of whatever else happened there before with no one else around. Aliens, Event Horizon and 2010 are just some of the examples that used a similar premise with a horror overtones. Then there's the buildup which takes an unusually long time for newer movies
The characters are glossed over, but Henriksen does just enough with the little time he has to develop his character into a believable person. At some point the movie turns into a mindless fight-and-shoot monster movie and it loses me there. I also liked the old fashioned horror cliche ending with the chestburster
There were several very talented people working on the movie. John Bruno, who had a long working relationship with Cameron and worked with him on every movie except for The Terminator and Aliens. Steve Burg, who worked on The Abyss,T2, Prometheus, The Martian and Interstellar, designed the Predator ship
AVP:R had very unlikeable characters. It is aiming for the truck drivers approach, to have regular everyday people that the audience can associate with, but all of those characters seem cliche nevertheless. There is a bullied boy with a bad job who is in love with a girl that has a bully boyfriend whose popular in school. It cannot get anymore cliche than that. The boy's boss is a cliche bad boss from the 80's teenage movies. The other characters are fairly decent, like the sheriff and the soldier, while some are purely undefined, like the convict.
There arent many good aspects of the movie. The hospital setting and scenes are one, and the Predalien actually makes for a good movie monster. While it's not on the level of Alien that we know from the original pictures, he works as a monster from some gory 80s monster flick
The setting is plain wrong and along with direction, cinematography and special effects, reminds us that this movie is a cheap B monster flick set in a small town. This movie could work as a low budget horror in the 80s
I'm not sure that a few nice looking sets makes AvP under-rated.
Its a Paul w.s. Anderson film what more needs to be said?
I had hoped we'd get the version of Anderson who did event horizon but instead we got the Anderson who did the residents evil films. If that's your thing then more power to you but its always going to be a bargain bin b movie hanging with the likes of underworld, priest, and the resident evil flicks. Not good films but they do have some redeeming popcorn entertainment value.
Avpr is hanging put with asylum flicks in terms of quality.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 08, 2017, 08:19:42 PM
Its a Paul w.s. Anderson film what more needs to be said?
I had hoped we'd get the version of Anderson who did event horizon but instead we got the Anderson who did the residents evil films. If that's your thing then more power to you but its always going to be a bargain bin b movie hanging with the likes of underworld, priest, and the resident evil flicks. Not good films but they do have some redeeming popcorn entertainment value.
Avpr is hanging put with asylum flicks in terms of quality.
I hate asylum but I would say they are better because they at least know they are crap. :P
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 08, 2017, 08:19:42 PM
I had hoped we'd get the version of Anderson who did event horizon but instead we got the Anderson who did the residents evil films.
I definitely think its a mix of both. The buildup is definitely leaning towards Event Horizon, the action and climax is Resident-ish
No fan of the Resi- evil movies other than it being a great popcorn movie but the action was a bit better compared to AVP.
Whats wrong with avp? Hmm, lets see. The dialogue, the acting, the characters, the story, the creatures, the fx, the makeup, the awful direction. Did i leave anything out?
Quote from: Ragonk_Force on Mar 15, 2017, 05:55:25 PM...the fx, the makeup, the awful direction.
While I don't think it's a good film, I find it hard to criticise those aspects. The direction and effects in particular were decent, solely because they did so much with such a small budget. It looks a hell of a lot more expensive than it actually was.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Mar 15, 2017, 06:23:50 PM
Quote from: Ragonk_Force on Mar 15, 2017, 05:55:25 PM...the fx, the makeup, the awful direction.
While I don't think it's a good film, I find it hard to criticise those aspects. The direction and effects in particular were decent, solely because they did so much with such a small budget. It looks a hell of a lot more expensive than it actually was.
The alien designs were terrible, the predators were too bulky, not even gonna mention their faces, the eggs look ridiculous, like fully pulsating.. why? the direction is the worst part in my opinion. But if you enjoy it, great for you. Im not bashing anyones opinion, just stating mine
Quote from: Ragonk_Force on Mar 15, 2017, 06:57:43 PMThe alien designs were terrible, the predators were too bulky, not even gonna mention their faces, the eggs look ridiculous, like fully pulsating.. why? the direction is the worst part in my opinion.
None of those things have anything to do with direction...
Quote from: Ragonk_Force on Mar 15, 2017, 06:57:43 PMBut if you enjoy it, great for you. Im not bashing anyones opinion, just stating mine
I already said "I don't think it's a good film." I just think some areas are criticised unfairly simply because the overall product was a disappointment. Anderson's script and creature design choices may have been lame, but his direction of the picture was actually pretty damn good.
The director is most certainly responsible for how that is interpreted on film, and he did a laughable job imo.
Pretty much everything.
It sucks.
Quote from: Ragonk_Force on Mar 15, 2017, 07:24:40 PM
The director is most certainly responsible for how that is interpreted on film, and he did a laughable job imo.
Not necessarily, these days directors can simply be puppets for the studios. This iis especially true of the Alien franchise as Fox loves to meddle in it and ruin things. That is not to say that the director cannot be responsible for what we see as well.
Honestly, liked the film idea.
However, the length of the film (too short for Aliens and Predators!) and the quick kill off of the characters is what spoils it for me.
Maybe just maybe, ten years from now a reboot will get it right!
After seeing AVP:R again, i dont think its that bad of a film, a few things i will never like is, the predalien, the homeworld of the predators and how they show that, i dont believe in all that predator stuff, i think a predator really likes his work and not a serpent slave of automatism and machines, they do have tech but its just limited thats my opinion, and i didnt like some things they shown as Wolf just blazes his plasma's at the powerplant, and the xeno's just run and rush bla bla.
I cant say i hated it so much as i did, i like to play with the thought as why didnt they dropped the predalien and used an engineer? a big giant alien psycho trying to fertilize our grounds and people with the black goo.
I thought the Predator planet was one of the few bright spots (literally and metaphorically).
I actually cannot sit through either of the movies anymore.
Too damn hard to see anything because of how they lit it
They lit it fine. The colour corrected it too dark in post.
Oh and the plasma caster being used as a gun, is not done.
Don't see a problem with that.
I remember that the trailer was really clear and the colours were great and then the release was awful.
I actually really liked the Predator Pistol. I thought it was pretty cool.
Let's see...
This is everything the AvP movies did wrong and what it generated
The Xenomorph design
The Predator design
The horrible "xeno and predator culture with pyramids" thing
Horrible concepts
Xenomorphs being weak as f**k when they are strong enough to endure massive heat from a spaceship's fire.
Predators being way too stupid that they aways get outsmarted by the prey that they" trained their entire life to hunt"(according to the movie)
The Predators helping the humans a long time ago
Shitting on the Alien Franchise timeline
Shitting on the Predator Franchise timeline
No marines.
Showing the original Weyland Yutani and killing him.
Teenagers
Predalien design that takes way too much of the Predator(Skin, muscle, hair) with no Bio-mechanical look and has square human-like teeth instead of only sharp teeth like the Yautjas.
Predators doing dishonorable things.(killing helpless people that had no way to defend themselves, taking time in skinning a unworthy prey.)
Preatorian laying eggs inside people with no explanation(And that for some reason only works on pregnant women.)
Artic having multiple people that found a way to appear all around the world later.
The HumanXPredator fanart that was created because of it.
The Pregnant women fetish that the director had and wasn't afraid to show.(At least it matched the Alien Franchise a bit.)
The entire bunch of people that thinks it's canon to both unverses when Ridley Scott doesn't give a f**k about it and Prometheus and it's sequels pretty much uncanonize it.
Predator blood not glowing in the second movie. (maybe it did but it was too goddam dark and I couldn't see shit.)
Xenomorph blood glowing in the first movie and being green.
Predalien blood not being acid.
Every Predator is turned into paper except the main one.
Xenomorph Queen being way too big.
Xenomorph surviving being Frozen and melted each 100 years with no colateral effects of being freezed or eletrecuted.(Or maybe there was and it would explain why the Xenomorphs of that movies were so weak and stupid.)
I apologize for any grammar errors and vulgar language.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 09, 2017, 12:56:47 PMI actually really liked the Predator Pistol. I thought it was pretty cool.
Yeah, me either. It was undeniably cool in an oldschool gunslinger kind of way and it made sense that he'd try and re-purpose it rather than bin it just because the tracking servos got smashed.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 09, 2017, 06:15:29 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 09, 2017, 12:56:47 PMI actually really liked the Predator Pistol. I thought it was pretty cool.
Yeah, me either. It was undeniably cool in an oldschool gunslinger kind of way and it made sense that he'd try and re-purpose it rather than bin it just because the tracking servos got smashed.
But didnt that took away the challenge of the hunting game of the preds? It kinda made it closer to humans and took away the magic of the predator, it was just to simple to introduce that.
They're humanoid anyway and are based on human sports hunters. Don't see how a particular weapon used by a Predator - who wasn't there to hunt really - changes that. Where's the "magic"?
Quote from: Infected on Apr 09, 2017, 07:14:51 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 09, 2017, 06:15:29 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 09, 2017, 12:56:47 PMI actually really liked the Predator Pistol. I thought it was pretty cool.
Yeah, me either. It was undeniably cool in an oldschool gunslinger kind of way and it made sense that he'd try and re-purpose it rather than bin it just because the tracking servos got smashed.
But didnt that took away the challenge of the hunting game of the preds? It kinda made it closer to humans and took away the magic of the predator, it was just to simple to introduce that.
The Predator also uses spears and nets. I don't think a gun is beyond the pale.
Well a gun doesnt need much talent, its point and shoot, takes away the challenge for such a sporty and hunter full of honor, imo.
They use laser guided energy weapons that explode on impact.
Where's the talent involved in that?
Only when needed to, or when the prey has a gun and willing to use it on the pred.
Or just when it feels like it...
In the hunt only if it hasnt got any honor
Blain got nailed without ever knowing what hit him, while his back was turned, no less.
It would show more talent if the Predator shot Mac, Dillon and Poncho with the handgun from AvP:R sans laser guidance.
The Predator isn't really the paradigm of the honorable hunter that he's been romanticized into being overtime. He just enjoys killing. And it's not even always about the best or the most challenging kill.
Quote from: Infected on Apr 09, 2017, 07:14:51 PMBut didnt that took away the challenge of the hunting game of the preds?
I fail to see how a pistol that he has to aim himself is less challenging than an auto-tracking shoulder cannon. Not to mention Wolf wasn't there to hunt. He was there to clean up, period.
So you guys like AVP:)
I don't mind the 2004 movie. I've read enough goofy Boys Own adventure stuff to look at it and see it's something Edgar Rice Burroughs, Conan Doyle or H. Rider Haggard would have written if they were around today. I love that juvenile fiction. The 'AvP' movie resembles that stuff sooo closely.
I know a lot of people like to claim it's also got a lot of Lovecraft's 'At the Mountains of Madness' tied into it, but it's way more goofy than Lovecraft ever got.
So in those terms, I find it enjoyable. I just can't take it any more seriously than that.
As for the 2nd movie. Yeah. It's absolute garbage. The story is a reasonable follow up to the first one but overall the movie as directed very poorly. I actually don't mind the story - but it's hard to strip it away from the rest of the lousy film making to make it worthwhile. It's too dark, the characters are shit and Super Hero Wolf Predator just needs some spandex and a cape to fulfill his destiny in the MCU. Yeah. It's a kinda shit movie, actually.
Except for the Predalien. I did like that thing and felt it was the best thing 'AvP-R' had to offer; but even then, the whole 'barf-birthing' thing was just disgusting and added nothing of value except how poorly the movie was put together by the Strauss bros.
As for the resolution at the end? What a cop out. Gah.
-Windebieste.
Quote from: SrSpinelli on Apr 09, 2017, 02:27:03 PM
Let's see...
This is everything the AvP movies did wrong and what it generated
The Xenomorph design
The Predator design
The horrible "xeno and predator culture with pyramids" thing
Horrible concepts
Xenomorphs being weak as f**k when they are strong enough to endure massive heat from a spaceship's fire.
Predators being way too stupid that they aways get outsmarted by the prey that they" trained their entire life to hunt"(according to the movie)
The Predators helping the humans a long time ago
Shitting on the Alien Franchise timeline
Shitting on the Predator Franchise timeline
No marines.
Showing the original Weyland Yutani and killing him.
Teenagers
Predalien design that takes way too much of the Predator(Skin, muscle, hair) with no Bio-mechanical look and has square human-like teeth instead of only sharp teeth like the Yautjas.
Predators doing dishonorable things.(killing helpless people that had no way to defend themselves, taking time in skinning a unworthy prey.)
Preatorian laying eggs inside people with no explanation(And that for some reason only works on pregnant women.)
Artic having multiple people that found a way to appear all around the world later.
The HumanXPredator fanart that was created because of it.
The Pregnant women fetish that the director had and wasn't afraid to show.(At least it matched the Alien Franchise a bit.)
The entire bunch of people that thinks it's canon to both unverses when Ridley Scott doesn't give a f**k about it and Prometheus and it's sequels pretty much uncanonize it.
Predator blood not glowing in the second movie. (maybe it did but it was too goddam dark and I couldn't see shit.)
Xenomorph blood glowing in the first movie and being green.
Predalien blood not being acid.
Every Predator is turned into paper except the main one.
Xenomorph Queen being way too big.
Xenomorph surviving being Frozen and melted each 100 years with no colateral effects of being freezed or eletrecuted.(Or maybe there was and it would explain why the Xenomorphs of that movies were so weak and stupid.)
I apologize for any grammar errors and vulgar language.
The director's didn't have a pregnant fetish.
Quote from: SrSpinelli on Apr 09, 2017, 02:27:03 PM
This is everything the AvP movies did wrong and what it generated
...
The HumanXPredator fanart that was created because of it.
Ever heard of Machiko Noguchi?
:laugh:
QuoteThe director's didn't have a pregnant fetish.
Pregnancy ended up being a thing in Skyline too...
But Shane Salerno's the one that wrote all of that stuff.
The ending of Skyline showed Jarrod protecting his child I thought?
The egg barfing wasn't in the original draft and Zee Strauses claim to have had a lot of input into subsequent drafts, so maybe it was their idea.
I just thought it was odd that pregnancy was featured twice in their only two films.
But in a draft called Colorado Nights that I was able to read it was in there. That script was dated 8/21/06. Not sure if the Bros were involved by this point our not. I think Crom told me it was one of the producer's idea about the egg barfing. It originally started out with a regular Alien having this reproduction method and the Bros changed it to the Predalien.
I have no idea whose I idea it was - it just, as I said, struck me as odd.
It was economical for the budget to use barfing instead of morphing.
The Strauses actually improved a horrible script and getting Daniel Pearl to shoot the movie and Brian Tyler to score it was a good move. Puts it way above your usual b-movie. And ADI's work is top notch as usual, even though people have issue with the designs.
Far and away ADIs worst work on an Alien flick. Not helped by very average suit performances (even by Woodruff), bad direction and editing.
Yep, worst Aliens design for sure.
Pearl's work was destroyed in the colour grade. Salerno's first draft was a, well, first draft, but hay more potential than what we ended up with.
Quote from: Scorpio on Apr 12, 2017, 12:11:13 AMPuts it way above your usual b-movie.
AVP:R is nothing like as good as your usual b-movie.
I remember when I was so f**king excited for AvP and then crossing my fingers for an amazing AvP-R
Recently heard Predator 4 is gonna have some autistic kid hoodwink the Predators...no hope
I'm keeping an open mind about Preda4.
If it does end up sucking, I'll be doubly disappointed, not just because it's yet another missed opportunity for Predator, but because it'll be the first Shane Black movie that I haven't liked.
Quote from: Predaker on Apr 11, 2017, 07:58:35 PM
Quote from: SrSpinelli on Apr 09, 2017, 02:27:03 PM
This is everything the AvP movies did wrong and what it generated
...
The HumanXPredator fanart that was created because of it.
Ever heard of Machiko Noguchi?
Machiko was a warrior
Lex was a helpless princess
Machiko was a colony administrator.
She had no more prior combat skill than Lex did.
The only problem people have with the Aliens is just their teeth, mainly. The rest of them looks perfectly fine.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 12, 2017, 09:44:30 AM
Machiko was a colony administrator.
She had no more prior combat skill than Lex did.
Seriously. I mean I like Machiko and I'm not a fan of Lex, but at least Lex was scaling a cliff at one point, so there was some physical prowess.
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Quote from: Mister Skeezler on Apr 12, 2017, 06:36:10 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 12, 2017, 09:44:30 AM
Machiko was a colony administrator.
She had no more prior combat skill than Lex did.
Seriously. I mean I like Machiko and I'm not a fan of Lex, but at least Lex was scaling a cliff at one point, so there was some physical prowess.
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Machiko had firearms training and was a highly skilled martial artist. :P
Huh...I guess I haven't read that graphic novel in a while. Thanks!
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Quote from: genocyber on Apr 12, 2017, 04:37:18 PM
The only problem people have with the Aliens is just their teeth, mainly. The rest of them looks perfectly fine.
You are being far too kind.
The alien suits are good, definitely better than Aliens (design notwithstanding). I mean, if you see the Aliens warrior suits in normal lighting it looks ridiculous. Same with the suits in AVPR, but at least it wasn't just a leotard with bits attached. I don't have too many issues with the design as I like the ridge head look more than the Aliens warriors. The neck also looks very biomechanical.
The body section is recycled from Alien Resurrection, and it looks much better in that film and I don't think that design works outside of A:R, it makes the aliens look too much like fleshy monsters. I don't care too much however as these aren't 'Alien' films.
The teeth, well, it appears they wanted something more monster-like than human-like:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_WOoUFlbGZ74%2FSSolQJ9SI6I%2FAAAAAAAAADI%2FSdPvclrc1Gw%2Fw1200-h630-p-k-no-nu%2FAVP2_03.jpg&hash=a05dc224e2c4a5ecca704bacd7f7a859ff9c2267)
Better made than Aliens, but not as well shot in either film.
The plated head (rather than the original ribbed look) was awful. And the jaw and jaw tendons were rubbish.
The performance on the PredAlien was very average too. The bit in the hospital when it gets slashed then backs off you could almost hear it saying "Kill him, my evil minions!"
everything about the movie is awful.
I always say that its because of that PG 13 rating and the pacing of the story. It felt like we were on a timer, have to go to point A to B without even expanding a bit more on the characters and the setting. For example, I do love the dialogue between Lex and Weyland, both showing how Weyland isn't just the CEO of a major corporation, but a man who has to be actual respectable reason to why going, wanting to leave a huge contribution to the world, a legacy to be proud of. Like an actual human being and not a 2D cartoon villain. And the fact the old man gave a go against Scar was actually kind of sad but admirable. Something to get me rooting for these guys other than just survival and cuz the movie told me to. It was always a "goddammit" movement with me when each character died off in Aliens, cuz how badass and human these folks were.
And just like everyone else, that damm PG 13 rating had to dumb down the violent nature of both the Alien and the Predator. I wanted some spine ripping or disembowelment, pure creatures of predatory and deadly nature. They had them so held back, it sucked.
They had 40 minutes to expand on the characters before shit started going down. What expanding they did wasn't terribly expansive.
The rating has nothing to do with it. 'Jaws' was rated PG.
'AvP' is just an average movie at best. The R-rating for the second movie did nothing to improve it - in fact, that movie is even worse.
Being a good movie has nothing to do with ratings. It's got to do with the talent behind it being used well.
-Windebieste.
There was originally a triangle between Lex, Sebastian, and a rival of Sebastian's named Verheiden, whom Lex had a romantic history with. Verheiden was the one who took the last gun out of the sarcophagus and his team replaced Sebastian's at Teotihuacan.
Verheiden was dropped, his name was given to a character named Vincenzo, Lex's backstory was switched to a past with Quinn in the novel, and then that too was ditched.
Wouldn't have been much, but damn, it would've been something at least.
While they can help we don't even really need backstories especially. Alien didn't have any. There was the odd flash of good character writing with Weyland and Lex talking about Weyland's legacy and Lex's dad. It was a good example of backstory that was relevant to Weyland's predicament. Though it didn't reveal anything about Lex especially.
Similarly, Verheiden and Miller having something in common with their children, and Miller turning into the tough guy was a nice touch - then they were dead two minutes later.
Miller really doesn't get a break in the novel, I believe he manages to escape only to get captured again, he also comes across Weyland's body.
I have to disagree somewhat with the ratings not mattering, usually its true that its not a rating what makes a film and needless gore is just that, needless but Aliens and Predators come from an R rated background and us fans expected to see a level of violence associated with that. In AVP, I don't think we actually see much human "deaths" properly except Rousseau's and Weyland's but then the former was in extreme close ups and in the latter we only see his reaction, not the killing stroke itself. Oh we do see that guy get speared in the shack but that is more or less it)
Requiem basically overcompensated in that regard by being too over the top in the gore department.
The movie should have been half hour longer to properly develop the characters, though really speaking they could done more in the time they had.
Verheiden doesn't get captured in the September 26th draft of the script, then he does in the production script ... then the later scene of him finding Weyland is verbatim the earlier draft. Him being captured was done during production/a reshoot, and for whatever reason Cerasini was updating the novel to be the latest version of the story at all times while still retaining long-abandoned concepts.
The novel still has an error in that regard. Miller is incapacitated by the alien as he is in the film, yet still randomly appears and comes across Weyland's body a few chapters later. There is no explanation whatsoever of how he escaped. It comes across more like just a plain mistake.
No, I know. It's even in the shooting script. It's really weird.
Kinda like how the book explicitly states Thomas' bottlecap goes into the ravine... yet Lex has it in her pocket at the end.
I had no idea Cerasini actually tried to keep the novel accurate to the evolving film script (as opposed to most novelisations, which just taken an early draft and stick to it, regardless of how it changes). That would explain some of those odd discrepancies.
I actually wrote an article about how the script developed, because it was honestly fairly interesting, but I'm waiting for Hicks to read it and publish it :laugh:
I didn't realise Cerasini was doing that either until going through the older drafts and re-reading early script reviews. Everyone's name is slightly different in the earlier drafts, but accurate in the novel. The whole Cambodia opening was abandoned by September 26, 2003. The 1904 whaling scene originally featured a character named Jimmy, not Karl, who was "all of 19" and not the "bearded, strapping whaler" in the production draft.
That sounds like it would be a good read. I wouldn't mind reading the first draft script if it ever pops up anywhere. There are scenes included that are not even in the novel, such as Stafford visiting Washington DC personally to recruit Miller.
And as I said on the previous page, an entire character and subplot just ... gone.
Not to mention those five damned Predators!
Quote from: SiL on Apr 27, 2017, 12:32:24 PMI actually wrote an article about how the script developed, because it was honestly fairly interesting, but I'm waiting for Hicks to read it and publish it :laugh:
That sounds interesting, I really enjoy hearing about what got dropped and what changed and things like that. I look forward to reading it.
Tell Hicks to get his thumb out :P
I can't recall if it was the script or the novel but the situation with scar was not even mentioned, I think he still got infected but it was "offscreen" so to speak so it just seems like the chestburster just comes out of nowhere.
The novel and script both don't show the hugger jumping.
I know that another Predator gets it but is killed off I believe.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 27, 2017, 12:42:22 PM
Tell Hicks to get his thumb out :P
I'm really busy! Leave me alone. :laugh: It's on my list of stuff to do. Just got a lot of Covvie focused stuff on my hands atm and not a great deal of time.
Yeah, I feel you really!
I think the main problem from AVP comes from it decided to play things too safe. The characters are very underdeveloped, with a very stop and go pace to the story. Their was a huge lack of substantial action and suspense for a movie involving these two monsters where explosions and dread often occurred. The human action was almost non existent, with the soldiers Weyland brought with him were useless. I really think the movie should have taken a page from Predator on how to make it more action packed.
It probably wasn't going for action packed, as judging by the slow build up and their attempt at suspence, they were trying to emulate the first movie a bit...which would be hard to do for a film that is pg rated.
What was there in Alien before the chestburster was higher than a PG (apart from Ripley's F-bomb)?
Well music and sound can make a good and scary atmosphere,. Horror themed films usually have distinct themes so sound could be something that gives higher rating depending on factors like jump scares etc.
Then there is the tone, both sound and tone was different in the two films despite the one trying to have the same kind of build up, In alien we know its going to be a creepy, by the ambient sounds and atmosphere it gives, in avp we get the sense of an adventure film from the tone and sound.
Besides the attacks later, the film is pretty PG-friendly. Jaws is just as tense and terrifying, but got a PG with marginally less gore and no swearing.
Hell, if it weren't for the swearing Aliens would easily be a PG-13 today if they cut out a second or two of the chest burst.
I dunno, Ripely's entirely bloodless Chestburster nightmare is pretty harrowing. Seeing it moving under her skin has always really disturbed me.
MPAA doesn't care if there's no actual blood. You can kill any number of people -- stab them to death if you have to -- and so long as it's bloodless, it's sweet.
Quote from: SiL on May 02, 2017, 11:53:16 AM
Besides the attacks later, the film is pretty PG-friendly. Jaws is just as tense and terrifying, but got a PG with marginally less gore and no swearing.
Hell, if it weren't for the swearing Aliens would easily be a PG-13 today if they cut out a second or two of the chest burst.
That is a fair point but personally I never found Jaws scary (damn good film though) and other than suspense, I can think of maybe one or two jump scares in that movie, while in Alien the suspense and horror was higher (from my pov anyway), especially in that the film dealt with primal fears and the monster was horrific in its life-cycle.
Jaws was just about a shark at the end of the day and you were only in danger if you were in the ocean. In Alien, the characters were constantly in danger because they were trapped with it on the ship.
Quote from: SiL on May 02, 2017, 12:07:50 PM
MPAA doesn't care if there's no actual blood. You can kill any number of people -- stab them to death if you have to -- and so long as it's bloodless, it's sweet.
It's kinda funny how the rating system works...brutal death is totally fine but having blood is just too much for them. :laugh:
In big blockbuster movies, death is like in a video game. No consequences, entirely bloodless.
People also handle guns like toys. Anyone who has ever done basic firearm safety would know. You never handle weapons like people do in the movies.
Quote from: Scorpio on May 08, 2017, 03:16:31 AMPeople also handle guns like toys. Anyone who has ever done basic firearm safety would know. You never handle weapons like people do in the movies.
That same criticism could really be levelled at
Aliens.
For me it was very simply the fact that they decided to have them take place on earth....which is fine for Predators but heresy for the world of Aliens. And honestly the bland characterization that leads into AvP for the first hour makes it far less watcheable to me than AvP:R which is just an all out slaughterfest from very early on. To me they are both shit films for many reasons but my patience with Paul Anderson's movie is far less than with the second one. Also I think AvP:R does better justice to the world of Predator where we get to see one going all out center stage for most of the movie...and we get to see the Predator's homeworld for a minute. Neither does right by the Alien though, it just has no business being present on earth before the events of Alien.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 09, 2017, 04:53:36 PM
Quote from: Scorpio on May 08, 2017, 03:16:31 AMPeople also handle guns like toys. Anyone who has ever done basic firearm safety would know. You never handle weapons like people do in the movies.
That same criticism could really be levelled at Aliens.
I love Aliens but firing from the hip is not a good idea. :laugh:
Then again that may have been the point of those marines, they were laid back "vietnam" type soldiers....still not smart though.
Considering the direction the Alien prequels seem to be going, the AVP movies suddenly aren't looking so bad,
Quote from: EJA on May 13, 2017, 02:50:28 PM
Considering the direction the Alien prequels seem to be going, the AVP movies suddenly aren't looking so bad,
It's a seriously sad time when something like that happens :laugh:
Its very ironic, AVP movies are bad for many reasons, but notably for how it messed up the lore with the sped up life-cycle and that Predalien egg vomiting...
Spoiler
then Covenant comes along and also dumps on the lore by using the AVP life-cycle.
It's funny that Two of AVP's biggest complaints: aliens being born too fast and a human teaming up with a predator are becoming the norm with both series.
Ridely Scott himself did the same thing in Alien Covenant and The Predator is about to turn the predators into our co-workers.
AVPR may be an irredeemable pile of shit but AVP was just ahead of it's time.
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on May 28, 2017, 03:45:37 PM
It's funny that Two of AVP's biggest complaints: aliens being born too fast and a human teaming up with a predator are becoming the norm with both series.
Ridely Scott himself did the same thing in Alien Covenant and The Predator is about to turn the predators into our co-workers.
AVPR may be an irredeemable pile of shit but AVP was just ahead of it's time.
No it wasn't because most of us hate it in covenant as well, in fact it is bewildering that Ridley would copy a film that he hates.
Quote from: The Cruentus on May 29, 2017, 10:20:57 AM
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on May 28, 2017, 03:45:37 PM
It's funny that Two of AVP's biggest complaints: aliens being born too fast and a human teaming up with a predator are becoming the norm with both series.
Ridely Scott himself did the same thing in Alien Covenant and The Predator is about to turn the predators into our co-workers.
AVPR may be an irredeemable pile of shit but AVP was just ahead of it's time.
No it wasn't because most of us hate it in covenant as well, in fact it is bewildering that Ridley would copy a film that he hates.
He said he never even saw it which makes it even more confounding.
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on May 30, 2017, 02:40:51 AM
Quote from: The Cruentus on May 29, 2017, 10:20:57 AM
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on May 28, 2017, 03:45:37 PM
It's funny that Two of AVP's biggest complaints: aliens being born too fast and a human teaming up with a predator are becoming the norm with both series.
Ridely Scott himself did the same thing in Alien Covenant and The Predator is about to turn the predators into our co-workers.
AVPR may be an irredeemable pile of shit but AVP was just ahead of it's time.
No it wasn't because most of us hate it in covenant as well, in fact it is bewildering that Ridley would copy a film that he hates.
He said he never even saw it which makes it even more confounding.
Its actually worse that he didnt see it because that means there is a chance he will make the same AVP mistakes which he did!
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on May 28, 2017, 03:45:37 PM
It's funny that Two of AVP's biggest complaints: aliens being born too fast and a human teaming up with a predator are becoming the norm with both series.
Ridely Scott himself did the same thing in Alien Covenant ...
There were more complaints as I recall about AVP than this list but I don't want to get into that right now.
* My view about AVP was that the ideas in the script were mostly good.
But Paul W. S. Anderson and his team were at a B movie level and the main problems for the film come down to it being done by second rate talent.
Still it's a fun popcorn movie imo.
- How could AVP have been better? Get a better filmmaker to direct it.
James Cameron knew about the AVP project as it was being developed.
If Cameron had directed the movie, then imo all of its main issues would have been resolved.
Cameron would have put together a better cast, improved the set design, special effects, and action pacing.
As for the story, to me it needed only minor changes to improve it and Cameron as a writer could have easily done that.
;)
I didn't see anything wrong in the first AvP movie, and i agree about AvP R are an abomination. I think people complaints about an Alien killed two Predators, who they perceives as killer of an entire commando squad, while Aliens can do the same, but people see them as mere cannon fodder. Aliens deserved more respect, but people backlash when Grid killed Celtic and Chopper. People also complaints about the quick gestating time, which is too quick for an Alien to grow adult. The cardboard characters maybe one of the worst part, and Scar quickly align himself to Lex, who just killed one Alien receives some backlash, although i'm okay with that. For a reminder, this is a versus film, like Freddy vs Jason, where the winner is decided by the Director who is biased to one character, but it is still a good popcorn movie.
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on May 28, 2017, 03:45:37 PM
It's funny that Two of AVP's biggest complaints: aliens being born too fast and a human teaming up with a predator are becoming the norm with both series.
Ridely Scott himself did the same thing in Alien Covenant and The Predator is about to turn the predators into our co-workers.
AVPR may be an irredeemable pile of shit but AVP was just ahead of it's time.
In AVP both things actually made sense, though.
The gestation period matched with how the pyramid works and the whole ritual.
The teamup was excusable as the predator wasn't there to hunt humans, and the human killed an alien so it made sense for the teamup.
Quote from: bb-15 on Jun 15, 2017, 11:51:14 PMJames Cameron knew about the AVP project as it was being developed.
If Cameron had directed the movie, then imo all of its main issues would have been resolved.
He never would have done it. By all accounts learning that it was being developed was what killed his interest in pursuing the
Alien 5 idea he was working on with Ridley.
AvP's team-up made me cringe in the cinema
When Lex looks deep into Scar's puppy eyes, they looked like they were gonna start making out
Quote from: happypred on Apr 12, 2017, 08:07:24 AM
I remember when I was so f**king excited for AvP and then crossing my fingers for an amazing AvP-R
Yep, same here. They dropped the ball with both AvP films to the point they actually impacted upon my appreciation/enjoyment of both species and their solo films. AvP is the better of the two films...and it has a couple okay scenes, but that's not saying much.
Honestly I think avp as being in a different universe from the alien and predator one we know originally , so I forgive the impossibly tall queen , wrestler looking predator , ridiculously quick birth and growth for the xenos , and the bad acting :P :D
Part of me wishes they'd gone with the original, more radical creature designs for exactly that reason.
I think AVP is a very bad movie. It's cheap, not very well directed (not horribly either), it has okay cinematography, but not much more. Some of the acting is bad (Lex is sometimes...disturbing), it's too politically correct, she can't even say ugly mother f**ker for god's sake ! The predator explaining to Lex with hand signs that his gauntlet will explode was cringeworthy and cheesy to me, the predator suits were bad, too bulky and the faces were too fake. The animatronics aliens were good but served nothing in the movie. The queen was good though. Also, the build-up was a little too long for me, especially leading up to such little intensity afterwards... All that for not much...
A very bad movie? No, I can't agree with that. An OK movie. Maybe even a really good one for me.
Reading your post, it speaks more about the production company than it does the film maker. Cheap - yes, WS I believe was chosen because he could make six million dollars look great (give the man a warehouse in Prague and he can do wonders on a shoestring). The PC issue - well, I think again the decision was taken to market this to teens (toys and so on), hence the use of not-so-harsh-language. Again - I'm not sure this was the director's choice - I really think he would have preferred a higher rating.
I think with the the suits and all that - well, personal choice. The Predators had to do "the same but different," right? I guess this is just an aesthetic choice and you're either going to like it or hate it.
Personally, I didn't mind the hand signals and the "fut" hand gesture, but that's just me.
On pacing... well, this is precisely how "Aliens" rolled out. Nothing happens for 40 minutes or so, just a lot of chat and build up.
Not that I'm saying these two movies are on a par - clearly not, but I don't think AvP deserves any of the hate it gets (then again, I'm sensing a renaissance of sorts on this forum at least).
QuoteOn pacing... well, this is precisely how "Aliens" rolled out. Nothing happens for 40 minutes or so, just a lot of chat and build up.
The biggest difference -- besides the quality of the writing -- is that
AvP builds for full two thirds of its runtime, then ends half an hour later. It's 55 minutes when Grid and Celtic start their fight and 85 minutes when the closing credits roll.
Aliens builds for an hour, but then has another 75 minutes before the close.
Same with
Alien; the burster pops about 45 minutes in and the film ends over an hour later.
Slow builds are fine, but AvP spends more time delaying getting to the good stuff than it actually spends on the good stuff, which makes it feel very poorly paced.
It doesn't help that it doesn't have the script quality or acting talent to carry the slow build.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 05, 2017, 08:45:13 AM
QuoteOn pacing... well, this is precisely how "Aliens" rolled out. Nothing happens for 40 minutes or so, just a lot of chat and build up.
The biggest difference -- besides the quality of the writing -- is that AvP builds for full two thirds of its runtime, then ends half an hour later. It's 55 minutes when Grid and Celtic start their fight and 85 minutes when the closing credits roll. Aliens builds for an hour, but then has another 75 minutes before the close.
Same with Alien; the burster pops about 45 minutes in and the film ends over an hour later.
Slow builds are fine, but AvP spends more time delaying getting to the good stuff than it actually spends on the good stuff, which makes it feel very poorly paced.
The director's cut is better in my view (I can't remember the last time I watched the Theatrical come to think of it). But even I'm not going to compare WS's writing with Cameron's! And I'm not saying that AvP is in the same ballpark as Aliens (of course it isn't). But the fingerprints are there. I think it was you or SM who said that it's clear that Anderson wanted to make a film that fitted the mood of the other pieces and all that (and that he failed!) - I don't think any of this stuff was by accident, but I do think that he was rather hamstrung having pitched something a bit different from what we saw. (Or a lot different - we'll never know).
I think that AvP delivers (mostly). It does what it says on the tin, it fulfilled Fox's brief, I think it made money (enough to warrant a sequel) and, as I say, from what I read, it's getting a bit more love these days.
I just think that the tin it was written on wasn't what fans of the franchise wanted - Alien and Aliens were 18s, I think (I can't recall if 3 and Resurrection were - I think they were 15s but can't recall) and by and large, it seems that the people who have been in for the long haul want and expect that.
Even Fox recogised that and allowed AvP: R a hard R movie (didn't work out as we know).
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jul 05, 2017, 08:49:19 AM
It doesn't help that it doesn't have the script quality or acting talent to carry the slow build.
They probably blew their budget getting Lance. It was done on the relatively cheap, I believe. However, I can't blame it all on that - the buck does stop with Anderson at he end of the day. Look, I'm not saying its a great film, but its not "really shit" or "an abomination" or anything like that.
It's pretty good. Or very good if you're me. But its not a genre defining epoch of a movie like Alien or Aliens. Like Apollo says to Rocky "You fight great, but I'm a great fighter." That sort of sums it up for me really.
Quote from: Russ on Jul 05, 2017, 09:08:33 AMLook, I'm not saying its a great film, but its not "really shit" or "an abomination" or anything like that.
No, I agree, just putting in my two cents.
I used to hate it, but I don't mind it now as a piece of trashy entertainment. It has a few really good elements amongst the bad. One thing I do credit is the fact that Anderson made a very good-looking film (crappy Predator design aside) given his tight budget.
I think that he's great visually, but like many directors (NB for instance) he prefers to write his own stuff. I guess because it means less compromise - but I'm not sure that he's a brilliant writer. However - when the stuff he's writing is making a tonne of money... its hard to find a case for NOT letting him write.
QuoteBut the fingerprints are there.
Sure, but how does that stop the pacing being bad? People say the pacing is bad because the pacing for the film
is bad -- it really doesn't matter than other films in the series had slow builds, it wasn't appropriate for the runtime Anderson had.
The build-up in Alien and Aliens is you find interesting stuff out along with the characters. There's tension in hiking across the planet or investigating the colony, there's revelations in terms of the Jockey or facehuggers, etc. etc. You know something is going to happen - you're just not sure when and how.
In AvP the location is somewhat engaging, but the characters aren't. And the cutting away to the Aliens and Predators, drains the tension out of it.
Quote from: SiL on Jul 05, 2017, 09:52:17 AM
QuoteBut the fingerprints are there.
Sure, but how does that stop the pacing being bad? People say the pacing is bad because the pacing for the film is bad -- it really doesn't matter than other films in the series had slow builds, it wasn't appropriate for the runtime Anderson had.
As I say, it's better in the director's cut, but I think the point was he was trying to get it right. Didn't wholly succeed as you say.
Quote from: SM on Jul 05, 2017, 10:46:35 AM
The build-up in Alien and Aliens is you find interesting stuff out along with the characters. There's tension in hiking across the planet or investigating the colony, there's revelations in terms of the Jockey or facehuggers, etc. etc. You know something is going to happen - you're just not sure when and how.
In AvP the location is somewhat engaging, but the characters aren't. And the cutting away to the Aliens and Predators, drains the tension out of it.
I dunno, I liked all the Chariots of the Gods stuff - but the execution was a bit cack-handed. The Italian bloke sussed out the language pretty quickly, didn't he. But that was great stuff, akin to finding out about facehuggers etc as you say above. Note akin - not "the same" or "as good as."
I think with cutting away to Aliens and Predators... well, it's AvP. I'm pretty sure that whatever script the producer's got, the first thing they would have said is "It needs more Aliens and Predators."
As I say above - this isn't a great movie, it has some flaws. But I have to give it A+ for effort. Pacing is out - sure, but WS was trying and (certainly in the theatrical cut) failing to mimic that style (he even has the nodding duck).
Funny enough, I was reading the Briggs script on the way up to London today, I'm 33 pages in. It's pretty good - from what I remember, it's really similar to one of the comics.
Quote from: Russ on Jul 05, 2017, 12:12:32 PM
As I say, it's better in the director's cut, but I think the point was he was trying to get it right. Didn't wholly succeed as you say.
My point is it doesn't work and it's not hard to see that it doesn't work. Brownie points for trying, sure, but saying the pacing is off is still a valid criticism.
QuoteI think with cutting away to Aliens and Predators... well, it's AvP. I'm pretty sure that whatever script the producer's got, the first thing they would have said is "It needs more Aliens and Predators."
Then they should've got to the versing quicker. The title implies conflict, which ends up with 2 fights totalling maybe 8 minutes.
Quote
Funny enough, I was reading the Briggs script on the way up to London today, I'm 33 pages in. It's pretty good - from what I remember, it's really similar to one of the comics.
It's an adaptation of the first comic series.
In regards to the effort - I'm sure the Strauses tried to make a good movie too.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jul 05, 2017, 09:21:53 AM
Quote from: Russ on Jul 05, 2017, 09:08:33 AMLook, I'm not saying its a great film, but its not "really shit" or "an abomination" or anything like that.
No, I agree, just putting in my two cents.
I used to hate it, but I don't mind it now as a piece of trashy entertainment. It has a few really good elements amongst the bad. One thing I do credit is the fact that Anderson made a very good-looking film (crappy Predator design aside) given his tight budget.
I agree. Everything but the Predator design was top notch. Now, imagine this part fixed along with the proper amount of gore and a tight script. It would have ended up as a sci-fi classic IMO.
So - 'imagine if it was really good, then it would've been really good'?
Quote from: SM on Jul 05, 2017, 11:32:14 PM
So - 'imagine if it was really good, then it would've been really good'?
Yeah, sometimes I do this with Star Wars prequels as well. The missed opportunities...
Quote from: SiL on Jul 05, 2017, 08:45:13 AM
QuoteOn pacing... well, this is precisely how "Aliens" rolled out. Nothing happens for 40 minutes or so, just a lot of chat and build up.
The biggest difference -- besides the quality of the writing -- is that AvP builds for full two thirds of its runtime, then ends half an hour later. It's 55 minutes when Grid and Celtic start their fight and 85 minutes when the closing credits roll. Aliens builds for an hour, but then has another 75 minutes before the close.
Same with Alien; the burster pops about 45 minutes in and the film ends over an hour later.
Slow builds are fine, but AvP spends more time delaying getting to the good stuff than it actually spends on the good stuff, which makes it feel very poorly paced.
If that's all you're watching the film for, is just the title fight. May as well go watch a wrestling match.
Yeah, that's not what I said at all.
It's not about 'the title fight'. It's about balance. If you're going to have over 50 minutes of build up to the first fight, you need a pay off. AvP had a down payment on the payoff with a 3 minute fight, but then effectively defaulted on the remainder, apart from another 3.5 minutes of Queen fight. The first fight should've been a taste of bigger and better to come. Instead it was the highlight.
Aliens had the slow build, but by contrast had a 5 minute action sequence in the hive, then slowed down again, then had a continuous series of action sequences that went for 40 minutes.
You don't think the Queen fight was "bigger and better"? ???
No.
The first fight has some elegance to it in that there's punch and counter punch. Alien tries to stab the Predator with its tail, Predator cuts of tail, Alien flings acid etc. There's some balance.
The Queen fight has a money shot with Scar doing the spinny stuff in the air, but other than that it's pretty average. And the Queen doesn't move like it has any weight like the original Queen did.
Agreed. And the full-on sprinting Queen, who had been frozen and immobilized for hundreds—if not thousands—of years, was a bit ridiculous too.
The '86 Queen moved like a creature that had been immobilized for some time, but was willing herself through rage and hatred. The AVP Queen looked like she was at peak physical performance. It just felt like another of Anderson's cheap "moarr awesomeness!" moves.
That's your opinion. The Queen fight is spectacular. Great use of animatronics and cgi. In Aliens, you can see that Ripley is just a doll in some shots (not hating on it, though).
I don't have an issue with the special effects. The Queen looks good, either puppet or CG - the way she moves doesn't. The scene should've been the main event, and it was a let down after the promise of the first fight.
Two sets of protagonists, leading to over-emphasis on action.
Quote from: SM on Jul 10, 2017, 02:08:13 AM
I don't have an issue with the special effects. The Queen looks good, either puppet or CG - the way she moves doesn't. The scene should've been the main event, and it was a let down after the promise of the first fight.
You don't like the way it moves? The Grid/Celtic fight, in some shots they look like men in suits. And the fighting is like WWE sometimes.
I've already explained why I don't like how it moves and why the first fight it better.
Mind you the first fight could have been better than it was as it was basically a wrestling match, though there was a few good moments such as the acid spray.
The first fight is good but it's not the main event. It was building up to the Queen the whole movie. You see the Queen waking up, then breaking free. I would have liked to see an epic showdown between Grid and Scar, but that would just repeat what has gone before. It's also copying what Aliens did with the Queen fight at the end.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jul 10, 2017, 11:40:21 AM
Mind you the first fight could have been better than it was as it was basically a wrestling match, though there was a few good moments such as the acid spray.
It could've been better certainly, but it's meant to be the entrée; not the main. Which unfortunately is what happened.
I liked that the Predator managed to compete with the Alien, but the biology of the Alien ensured its ultimate victory. Eg. successfully putting the Alien into a net, which is then melted by the acid.
My only issue with that was, out of all of the kit he has, you'd expect the Predator's Wristblades to be proofed against acid. They're literally his fallback weapon, to have them melt when the Combistick doesn't seemed really dumb.
They're meant to shoot the Aliens and go home. Melee weapons were presumably absolute last resort, and even then the spear was to be preferred over the blades. The blades had one good hit in them, which is pretty understandable considering if you're in a situation where that's all you've got left chances are one hit is all you'll have the opportunity to make (Celtic could've stabbed Grid in the head, for example.)
The blades are the only things that are susceptible acid aren't they? The spear and throwing star thingy don't seem to be affected.
The acid is able to damage their helmets to a small degree too.
Ah yeah. The armour too.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jul 11, 2017, 02:54:14 AM
It's also copying what Aliens did with the Queen fight at the end.
How so? I'm pretty sure Ripley never threw a shuriken at the Queen or impaled her with a tail spear or Combistick, she certainly didn't chain it to a water tower.
The only thing that is the same is that the Queen is once again the "final boss" of the film and is killed by the natural environment.
Yeah there's a similarity in that they didn't just shoot the Queen. But I'm not seeing much beyond that.
There's that lost shot too but that's just superficial.