I noticed in a video that we can do an actual melee attack (in this case I saw a marine do a punch on an alien).
Any one else feel like this game could use melee weapons like an axe or machette?
I get that there is acid damage but thats only on Intense, Extreme and Insane.
No.
The Aliens are feeble and weak as it is already. Being able to battle them in melee (and win) would turn them into simple zombie game cannon fodder.
If anything they should make the player even weaker in melee situations. Punching should just be cosmetic with zero melee impact and in order to escape the grip of an Alien you should need a team mate to help you. Acid splash damage should be potent on lower difficulty settings and so should acid puddles on the ground. Friendly fire should also be more of a concern no matter the setting.
Right now it's like the player is wandering through a shooting gallery packed with rabid dogs & monkeys + the ocational lumbering steroid freak who likes to use you for weight lifting. I get it that this is a fast-paced arcade-like shoot em up kind of game, but that doesn't mean that the Aliens need to be slapped around like trash.
For example, instead of having each Xeno die after a round or three, they could have it fall to the ground where it recuperate for three seconds. If you keep shooting at it while it's on the ground it will be weaker once it gets up again. Also, pistols and shotguns should only do damage up close, although shotguns should have a halting effect on the Aliens no matter the range. Incendiary weapons should not kill the Aliens but blind them and have them run around randomly (or even run away altogether), which makes it easier for the marines to finish them off with pulse rifles, smartguns, grenades etc.
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Aug 05, 2021, 08:23:45 PM
For example, instead of having each Xeno die after a round or three, they could have it fall to the ground where it recuperate for three seconds. If you keep shooting at it while it's on the ground it will be weaker once it gets up again
Thisis f**kin brlliant man! Ridley Scott even imagined the xenomorph being able to grow an arm if it ever got severed. I like this idea.
Melee kill a xeno, that would make me laugh in how silly and weak the xenos are in the game, like in colonial marines game or avp2010, why even have melee in the game as its useless compared to using a pulse rifle?
Don't forget - we talking about the horde shooter action arcade game. Not about super-duper realistic colonial marines (kek) simulator.
The ability to have a weapon for the melee is a brilliant idea. This is why such games are popular. Axe, katana, knife, chainsaw, bat - sounds sweet. Of course on Extreme and Insane you will take full acid damage - this is also a part of fun.
While I don't want to see a melee system beyond simply being able to push enemies off you momentarily, people seem to forget things from the movies. Like when Vasquez manages to throw the alien off her after it drops down in the vent, then proceeds to pin its head against the wall with her boot and offload her pistol into it. Unrealistic? Probably.
I hate to think somewhere down the line that everyone got the idea that the Alien franchise is all about explosions and gunfire as it is most certainly not (Alien3 was about fire). But I do recall kicks and punches to be part of the way people usually get away from threats in the franchise as well. Sometimes there were fire extinguishes and electric rods. I'm just saying it would make it fun to be able to use any blunt instrument to knock down an alien but It most certainly won't cause it to randomly explode, that just wouldnt make sense. But the energy and satisfaction is definitely there if you're going to use a bat and would be something different since the rest of the game is spray and pray.
Aliens have a clear strength advantage on humans and it should remain that way always. No human alive today can pluck a human armored marine off the floor and run up a vertical spacing in seconds. That is a very obvious strength difference that cannot be matched.
It should be that if you are pinned you at the very best should be able to do is slow the Alien down before it instakills you, and that should manifest itself in game where another player has to save you before you die.
I don't agree with eagle about the aliens being able to stand up to a 10mm round though. That is a very heavy round that is currently formulated to primarily handgun use. Adapted as a carbine round and given the actual increased velocity it would have as well as having an explosive tip........said round would blow a human to pieces. It could easily kill a grizzly with the improved velocity..........I really don't think Aliens would match up with it, despite their natural armor.
The two instances in Aliens are covered by the fact that in the Hicks shotgun blast in the APC two other Marines were trying to close the door, and were stalemated by the Alien, and the Vasquez scenario, the Alien had been shot point blank as it was falling down to try and get her, and then shot again as it was flailing around before the head pin.
Typically assailants, even armored ones, aren't going to be as effective after you blast them.
From what I saw in gameplay and from what the devs said on Discord, melee barely does any damage and is, at best, a last resort to push em away and deal minimal damage, looks like it will be useless against anything bigger than a Runner (majority of the enemies in this game)
And incase y'all forgot, someone was able to wrestle with a fully grown Runner for 20 seconds without any weapons or military training, so melee kinda working on em in this game makes sense
That guy died though. He never was going to live. Same for Parker.
My point wasn't that a fully adrenalized up human couldn't slow the Alien down, but that is ALL they could do.
I always thought the runner killing dillion had more to do with its dog based heritage as if you've ever seen a dog attack a prey creature before it is pretty vicious. It doesn't seem to be as precise of a kill as almost all the other kills in the series before hand. Maybe because Dillon actually was physically going to confront the creature and nobody else had in the third movie?
I think the comic Labyrinth might have taken that scene and made it a whole concept in that series.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Aug 07, 2021, 05:07:03 PM
That guy died though. He never was going to live. Same for Parker.
My point wasn't that a fully adrenalized up human couldn't slow the Alien down, but that is ALL they could do.
A well placed punch is an already weakened Xeno could kill it, this applies to alot of real life creatures too, if an untrained big guy can slow a xeno down for 20ish seconds then a trained marine could deliver blows capable of staggering em
And frankly, the melee attacks in this game are far less offensive than ACM and 2010.
Agree on what you guys are onto:
The dog alien/runner was in the movie strong enough to bend netal door and lift a human with ease, with dillon like an animal I think it was mostly playing with him and just wounding him until it was bored with dillon. It killed others who tried to fight it in seconds.
But like you say: like real life physics and what one learn in martial art: you can use a bigger opponents weight/speed against it and knock it down, xeno should be possible to tackle etc but winning and killing it ehn no, injury it maybe. Would compare it to kyle fighting the terminator in T1. But is a good tactic in last resort to get away from a xeno.
As long as one cant go and kill xenos left and right with punches like avp2010 where it was even demanded and possible to do if you got good with the light/heavy attacks, then its all fine for me :)
Yeah, I feel like what we are getting here is way better than 2010 and CM, where you could literally beat an Alien to death with no problems
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Aug 07, 2021, 05:54:10 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Aug 07, 2021, 05:07:03 PM
That guy died though. He never was going to live. Same for Parker.
My point wasn't that a fully adrenalized up human couldn't slow the Alien down, but that is ALL they could do.
A well placed punch is an already weakened Xeno could kill it, this applies to alot of real life creatures too, if an untrained big guy can slow a xeno down for 20ish seconds then a trained marine could deliver blows capable of staggering em
And frankly, the melee attacks in this game are far less offensive than ACM and 2010.
Nope. No chance in hell that even a perfectly delivered punch by human would kill an Alien, no matter how weakened the Alien is or how strong and able the human is. At best it would stun it or have it back off...TEMPORARILY.
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Aug 08, 2021, 12:23:05 AM
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Aug 07, 2021, 05:54:10 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Aug 07, 2021, 05:07:03 PM
That guy died though. He never was going to live. Same for Parker.
My point wasn't that a fully adrenalized up human couldn't slow the Alien down, but that is ALL they could do.
A well placed punch is an already weakened Xeno could kill it, this applies to alot of real life creatures too, if an untrained big guy can slow a xeno down for 20ish seconds then a trained marine could deliver blows capable of staggering em
And frankly, the melee attacks in this game are far less offensive than ACM and 2010.
Nope. No chance in hell that even a perfectly delivered punch by human would kill an Alien, no matter how weakened the Alien is or how strong and able the human is. At best it would stun it or have it back off...TEMPORARILY.
Yes it would lol, it's not an impossibility, it's improbable and unlikely, but still possible
Bury a bowie knife in its head.
Hand to hand melee wouldn't work on an 8' tall uparmored Alien, no matter the training a person had. It would be like Mike Tyson getting in a boxing ring with a Grizzly bear. Mike Tyson would knock out 99 percent of people on earth, but a grizzly bear would decapitate him with little to no effort on its part because the strength and mass difference isn't comparable.
What separates humanity from the animal kingdom is the fact we got brains, and we have used those brains to develop tech to insulate us from the natural world.
Marines don't walk around punching people to death, they use their weaponry.
I was in the Army for 8 years and I can count on both hands the amount of days of actual Army instruction I got in hand to hand combat. That is not the way anybody fights, if you go into a conflict with more hand to hand skills than weapon skills you are going to be cannon fodder for the other side. You get them before they get you. You don't do that by running down the street at entrenched positions waiting for them to stitch you up with the intention of throwing superior hands. There is still a need for some hand to hand skills because of handling of detainees, crowds, and the potential to run into somebody in a MOUT situation, but it is literally designed to wrap up somebody until another one of your buddies can come along and dome the guy as you wrestle. They don't teach death blows and the closest things we learned were JiuJitsu chokes............something that wouldn't do anything against the Alien.
In the future it will probably be even worse.
Now if you want to actually have a melee weapon, then that would be different. Knives and pointed weapons work different because they put all the mass of your swing into a single point. Same for slashing weapons (except on an edge), and blunt melee weapons like war hammers and shit. So a vest designed to stop bullets wouldn't necessarily stop a knife swing with all the mass behind the blade. The plate would probably stop the impact, but the kevlar might be seperated by such an attack because of the mass.
A human MIGHT fair better with one of those, but in reality it could be like a cobra trying to strike a mongoose. Might seem like a good idea unless you never landed a hit (like the cobra) and even if you did, if you landed a strike on an alien, your talking about an Alien (now literally created) to hunt men down. It was probably designed in such a way that as a predator of men, such attacks wouldn't work against it. Kind of like evolution favoring the mongoose, who is essentially evolved as a cobra killer.
For gameplay purposes, Alien Trilogy, Alien Resurrection, AvP, AvP2 all did fine without having a function like that in there. AvP2 had the knife but it was useles s on Alien or Preds.
If somebody gives it any thought at all, it is silly. You only need to look at our own history right here on planet earth to see how silly it is when we have people getting dropped by domesticated dogs. Humans aren't all that without their smarts and their tech.
Melee as a primary is suicidal. If you're having to resort to what god gave ya, odds are you're out of ammo. And in that situation specifically, I'd much rather have a good knife at my disposal and try for a fatal head wound than start throwing punches. Nevertheless, even if the domes add some level of ballistic protection, a gun is still the best weapon to have.
Long gun>handgun>knife>debris>fists
...And also dick
If everything else fails, whip it out and choke that b*tch to death with it.
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Aug 08, 2021, 01:42:47 AM
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Aug 08, 2021, 12:23:05 AM
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Aug 07, 2021, 05:54:10 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Aug 07, 2021, 05:07:03 PM
That guy died though. He never was going to live. Same for Parker.
My point wasn't that a fully adrenalized up human couldn't slow the Alien down, but that is ALL they could do.
A well placed punch is an already weakened Xeno could kill it, this applies to alot of real life creatures too, if an untrained big guy can slow a xeno down for 20ish seconds then a trained marine could deliver blows capable of staggering em
And frankly, the melee attacks in this game are far less offensive than ACM and 2010.
Nope. No chance in hell that even a perfectly delivered punch by human would kill an Alien, no matter how weakened the Alien is or how strong and able the human is. At best it would stun it or have it back off...TEMPORARILY.
Yes it would lol, it's not an impossibility, it's improbable and unlikely, but still possible
No, it's actually impossible. Maybe (MAYBE), like someone already mentioned, if you had a good blade and manage to somehow successfully bury it deep into one of the Alien's soft spots, but other than that - no. Not going to happen. Ever.
Human trying to melee Alien = Dead human, no matter the ifs or buts.
Even if that were possible the Alien also has the added advantage of Acid blood melting your swinging hand down to the nub.
It's silly.
The people arguing otherwise probably think they could wrestle with a tiger and not get killed instantly.
Quote from: Kimarhi on Aug 08, 2021, 07:06:15 AM
Even if that were possible the Alien also has the added advantage of Acid blood melting your swinging hand down to the nub.
It's silly.
The people arguing otherwise probably think they could wrestle with a tiger and not get killed instantly.
This 100%
You can live without a hand. The only alternative would be to try punching it and just get your face eaten.
Again, if you have to use a knife, you're out of ammo. And if you have to fight it with that knife, you've failed at escaping the situation, which should've been priority one. So you're likely in Dillon's situation. No guns and you're down and getting eaten. Yes, use a knife to stab it in the side of the head at that point.
The acid will destroy the knife and probably your hand. But again, you can live without a hand. You might hurt it bad enough that it freaks out momentarily and you can escape. Severely wounded, but alive. And if not, you at least hurt the thing that killed you.
Not arguing that. Anyway you can defend yourself would be better than nothing. Even throwing hands would be better than nothing.
But I know one isn't going to work, and the other is suspect at best.
Unless we're talking about crabators, I don't think so. These penis-head bastards are like 450 pounds, so humans wouldn't stand a chance.
We saw what hand to hand did against the Preds in the first movie. Absolutely jack.
I like how someone tried using an example of a man vs a grizzly to support their point when men HAVE killed grizzlies with their bare hands before
"C. DALE PETERSEN. suffocated a black mountain grizzly bear by arm in the throat and used his teeth that grapples a jugular on the grizzly neck. The grizzly fainted and he finished it off with a stick by striking repeatedly at the head. That's one of the 2 stories. The other was seen a man and a grizzly bear in the pit, deep in the woods that both were killed. No body knows what happen but that bear was killed by bare hands as well."
Both instances are more or less unverified and thus qualify more as STORIES than actual proof. If we choose to believe the first story, then by all means none of what Petersen did to the Grizzly would apply while fighting an Alien as it has low-caliber bullet-proof carapace, non-terrestrial physiology and acid for blood.
For F sake, the creature survives the vacuum of space, spaceship jet blasts, hot lead baths, can punch through thick bullet proof glass and bulkheads. I don't think you can kill an Alien with blunt force - at tops you'll stun it; the creature often seem to use its head as a ram when breaking through doors etc. so with that in mind why would a punch, kick or knee do anything to an Alien? Sure, pressure-wise, on a blunt force kind of way, you could technically try to crush it, but NO human possesses the weight and strength needed to do that (unless using a Powerloader, machinery or a vehicle of some sort). Also, in order to crush it you need to hurt it badly or pin it down first (see Wolf in AVP:R, the APC in ALIENS or the barge crane in A:C). So in other words, no.
As a side note, watch Celtic melee Grid, swinging him around and bashing him headfirst into stone pillars, and Grid just shook his head a little and pounced back at Celtic in no time. No concussion effects or inner injuries suggested, in fact Grid is just as vicious as before despite being mutilated and scarr-tattooed by Celtics before killing him. Sure, we have Wolf manhandling Aliens in AVP:R, but that movie had no consistency and portraid the Aliens as annoyingly incapable, dumb, slow and weak. Now, pit Wolf against Celtic and tell me who you think would win in an unarmed grapple/wrestling fight, or pit the AVP Aliens against the AVP:R Aliens and tell me who would win (I'm actually convinced that Grid would take care of the AVP:R Predalien with ease).
Sorry for the detour, but there just is no scenario or setup where even the strongest most able human would be able to kill an Alien in melee bare handed.
I'd be more likely to believe that first story if they said he stuck his finger up its butt and it had some kind of sexual crisis and ran off.
Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Aug 08, 2021, 10:05:50 PM
I like how someone tried using an example of a man vs a grizzly to support their point when men HAVE killed grizzlies with their bare hands before
I'm going with urban legend for 500 dollars on that one.
Unless it was a baby grizzly. There is no way an average sized male is going to take out an 8' tall 1300 lb grizzly. But feel free to try any of your marine death moves on one and see how that works out.
They can put it just for lols (does nothing but get you killed), but perhaps can be effective against human/synthetic enemies.
AvP2 had a knife too...wouldn't have recommended using it against the Aliens...
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 09, 2021, 09:40:07 AM
AvP2 had a knife too...wouldn't have recommended using it against the Aliens...
Good point. I forget because I never actually used it. Always figured it was there mainly as an homage to the
Predator side of things (ie Billy, and to a lesser extent Dutch).
Lol at the thought of punching the alien and doing damage. Go punch a tiger. Even one that is mortally wounded. Not happening. We can't hardly beat a 50 lbs dog. Have you ever punched a person? It's not like the movies. Unless you catch that sweet spot, most people will absorb quite a bit of punishment. Now imagine the hard armor of an alien. How far from it's face is the brain? Loads of factors.
The only thing even remotely feasible physically would be to lock one around the body from behind while it was mauling someone else, and if you had enough strength and adrenaline you might get it off it's feet for a second, but it would probably twist around so fast it wouldn't matter.
I could see 3 or 4 people maybe tripping it up for a second while it was ripping them to shreds, nothing more. That is very suspect too. It would be like trying to gang up ona gorilla, but worse.
Quote from: razeak on Aug 14, 2021, 04:43:53 PM
Lol at the thought of punching the alien and doing damage. Go punch a tiger. Even one that is mortally wounded. Not happening. We can't hardly beat a 50 lbs dog. Have you ever punched a person? It's not like the movies. Unless you catch that sweet spot, most people will absorb quite a bit of punishment. Now imagine the hard armor of an alien. How far from it's face is the brain? Loads of factors.
The only thing even remotely feasible physically would be to lock one around the body from behind while it was mauling someone else, and if you had enough strength and adrenaline you might get it off it's feet for a second, but it would probably twist around so fast it wouldn't matter.
I could see 3 or 4 people maybe tripping it up for a second while it was ripping them to shreds, nothing more. That is very suspect too. It would be like trying to gang up ona gorilla, but worse.
sounds accurate :)
Aliens look too small, aliens sound too quiet. And now - you can't punch the alien. This topic is already doomed.
Can they be tickled?
I hate melee in these games. Even on my beloved AVP2 being able to kill aliens with it was stupid. Then came AVP2010 marine melee system which you could punch aliens and predators. ACM had some of that too of course. Then PHG parry system, f**king predator axes and swords being blocked by a butter knife. Hate you all.