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Author Topic: New shared universe AvP timeline? Changes to cannon?  (Read 7796 times)

TurokSwe
Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AM
Reply #30 on: Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AM
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point

Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories

1. Just because you think it's hearsay doesn't mean it actually is. ;)

But it demonstrably is hearsay as it's an unofficial statement coming from an individual working for Fox (and one who personally favors divided canons), so yes, it is indeed hearsay.

2. The current, present "canon" stance need not be beholden to prior products (or any products at all), and can change at a moment's notice. That throws, like, 95% of your blog treatise right out the window.

I never said it needed to be, but we only have the products to go by, and they seem to quite clearly contradict rumors of divided canons.

3. "not acknowledged by the fanbase", aside from being unproveable hearsay, would also fall under the domain of "head canon" - a topic you allegedly hate. Keep in mind that head canon is a good thing, it's how people enjoy what they want to enjoy and ignore what they don't. :)

By mentioning the fanbase not acknowledging a divided canon I intended to communicate how it's not sensible to resort to a decision that isn't endorsed by the fanbase if you desire to keep your fanbase.

4. Having three separate canons is more "logically coherent" than having just one with (admittedly) dubious continuity. It lets people who only want to have Alien in their Alien stuff have their own "canon", while people who want a canon with everything can have one, too. Like it's the best of both worlds, and for the life of me I cannot fathom why you're against this idea - you're already getting the "official canon" you want (if "official canon" matters so much to you), and other people who don't like that "official canon" have their own as well. What, exactly, is the problem here?

How is that supposedly "more logically coherent"? You're only causing even more confusion and division with such an idea. What do you mean by "dubious continuity" exactly? If some people insist upon only having particular products and concepts part of their personal canon then there's nothing stopping them, but don't bring this personal canon upon the entire fanbase that embraces the entire official canon. The problem is this movement of people who wants to cause confusion and division in the fanbase by unnecessarily separating everything in the franchise into various separate canons.

Those "conclusions" are still your opinions (which are in turn based on your opinions on pieces of data), which is his point.

Not my opinions, but factual observations. There is speculation included, but it's largely fact-based.

Well I mean, they're not wrong.

Well, except they quite clearly are wrong, and they know it so well that they can't even handle it being questioned.

« Last Edit: Nov 02, 2020, 12:40:33 AM by TurokSwe »

Nightmare Asylum
Nov 02, 2020, 12:41:20 AM
Reply #31 on: Nov 02, 2020, 12:41:20 AM
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point

Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories

At the start of the article in that very link:

Quote
Today, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!


Xenomrph
Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
Reply #32 on: Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point

Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories
That says they're going to make more Alien, Predator, and AvP stories. I'm not sure what your point is?

1. Just because you think it's hearsay doesn't mean it actually is. ;)

But it demonstrably is hearsay as it's an unofficial statement coming from an individual working for Fox (and one who personally favors divided canons), so yes, it is indeed hearsay.
You keep telling yourself that. ;)

2. The current, present "canon" stance need not be beholden to prior products (or any products at all), and can change at a moment's notice. That throws, like, 95% of your blog treatise right out the window.

I never said it needed to be, but we only have the products to go by, and they seem to quite clearly contradict rumors of divided canons.
That's, just, like, your opinion, man.

3. "not acknowledged by the fanbase", aside from being unproveable hearsay, would also fall under the domain of "head canon" - a topic you allegedly hate. Keep in mind that head canon is a good thing, it's how people enjoy what they want to enjoy and ignore what they don't. :)

By mentioning the fanbase not acknowledging a divided canon I intended to communicate how it's not sensible to resort to a decision that isn't endorsed by the fanbase if you desire to keep your fanbase.
What does that even mean?
There's a shitload of fans who don't like AvP, letting AvP be its own separate thing caters to all kinds of fans and lets you "keep your fanbase".

4. Having three separate canons is more "logically coherent" than having just one with (admittedly) dubious continuity. It lets people who only want to have Alien in their Alien stuff have their own "canon", while people who want a canon with everything can have one, too. Like it's the best of both worlds, and for the life of me I cannot fathom why you're against this idea - you're already getting the "official canon" you want (if "official canon" matters so much to you), and other people who don't like that "official canon" have their own as well. What, exactly, is the problem here?
You're only causing even more confusion and division with such an idea.
How? What part of it is too complex or confusing for you to understand?

You are literally getting what you want with the existence of an AvP canon, while others who aren't a fan of AvP get what they want. What do you have against people other than you getting what they want? Doesn't that lead to less confusion and division? If people don't want to engage with AvP materials but still want to follow "the official canon", there is a path for them.
Like, arguing against three canons makes you seem like an uncompromising asshole - especially when, once again, you're already getting what you want.

You're only causing even more confusion and division with such an idea.
How so? What, exactly, is your endgame here? Even if you ended up being "right" you'd still have mountains of people who opt to do their own thing anyway, as they have been for decades. People operate independent of the "official canon", they aren't beholden to it or somehow "wrong" if they choose not to follow it.

If some people insist upon only having particular products and concepts part of their personal canon then there's nothing stopping them
The lack of self-awareness present here is astounding. :D

the entire fanbase that embraces the entire official canon.
[citation needed]

It's pretty f**kin' laughable that you, of all people, presume to speak for the highly diverse and opinionated group that is "the entire fanbase".

Like, holy shit. Laughing my ass off over here.

Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point

Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories

At the start of the article in that very link:

Quote
Today, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!
Whoops! ;D

« Last Edit: Nov 02, 2020, 12:53:11 AM by Xenomrph »

TurokSwe
Nov 02, 2020, 12:54:14 AM
Reply #33 on: Nov 02, 2020, 12:54:14 AM
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point

Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories

At the start of the article in that very link:

Quote
Today, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!

What's your point? They're separate licenses, not separate canons.


Xenomrph
Nov 02, 2020, 12:56:36 AM
Reply #34 on: Nov 02, 2020, 12:56:36 AM
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point

Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories

At the start of the article in that very link:

Quote
Today, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!

What's your point? They're separate licenses, not separate canons.
The terms are interchangeable as far as FOX/Disney is concerned.


SM
Nov 02, 2020, 01:01:58 AM
Reply #35 on: Nov 02, 2020, 01:01:58 AM
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point

Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories

At the start of the article in that very link:

Quote
Today, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!

Hmmm... sounds like he might be "promoting falsehoods"...


TurokSwe
Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AM
Reply #36 on: Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AM
That says they're going to make more Alien, Predator, and AvP stories. I'm not sure what your point is?

My point is that they're keeping the established shared universe alive. What's your point?

You keep telling yourself that. ;)

Do as you please.

That's, just, like, your opinion, man.

I'm not very fond of confusing facts with opinions.

What does that even mean? There's a shitload of fans who don't like AvP, letting AvP be its own separate thing caters to all kinds of fans and lets you "keep your fanbase".

I'm not sure how I lost you. Yes, there are many fans who don't like AVP (although mostly referring to the two movies and not the concept as a whole), but if they insist upon disregarding it then they can just do so and let the rest of the fanbase operate in peace without all the unnecessary confusion and division.

How? What part of it is too complex or confusing for you to understand?

Because the audience is gonna have to try and make sense of everything because the products ties into each other and because you cause division in the fanbase and people become frustrated and disinterested.

You are literally getting what you want[/b] with the existence of an AvP canon, while others who aren't a fan of AvP get what they want.

Duh!

What do you have against people other than you getting what they want?

Nothing unless what these other people want is going to cause troubles for the entire community, as these endless canon debates have been a constant demonstration about.

Doesn't that lead to less confusion and division?

Not in the slightest, as these canon debates have shown.

If people don't want to engage with AvP materials but still want to follow "the official canon", there is a path for them.

You're still following the official canon even if you disregard certain aspects of it. There's no need for separate canons. A unified canon not only unifies the audience but it also offers you the choice of a preferred canon if you must insist, and all you have to do is to literally ignore certain aspects of the canon.

Like, arguing against three canons makes you seem like an uncompromising asshole - especially when, once again, you're already getting what you want.

Right back atcha for arguing against a unified canon for the general audience and general fanbase where more picky eaters are otherwise allowed to choose what they want while not causing any problems for the rest.

How so? What, exactly, is your endgame here? Even if you ended up being "right" you'd still have mountains of people who opt to do their own thing anyway, as they have been for decades. People operate independent of the "official canon", they aren't beholden to it or somehow "wrong" if they choose not to follow it.

I think I have made myself abundantly clear already here.

The lack of self-awareness present here is astounding. :D

I'm sorry but this response assumes that I'm a picky eater, which I'm not. When we have a unified canon, you can choose to ignore certain aspects of it if you insist, but that will be your choice and it won't affect the canon and it won't affect others who follow the entire canon and you will therefore have no grounds for causing division and confusion among the rest of the audience.

[citation needed]

I'm sorry?

It's pretty f**kin' laughable that you, of all people, presume to speak for the highly diverse and opinionated group that is "the entire fanbase". Like, holy shit. Laughing my ass off over here.

Ok?

At the start of the article in that very link: Today, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!
Whoops! ;D

What are you trying to say? Is this another example where you're confusing the fact that these are three separate licenses but not three separate canons?

Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point

Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories

At the start of the article in that very link:

Quote
Today, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!

What's your point? They're separate licenses, not separate canons.
The terms are interchangeable as far as FOX/Disney is concerned.

First, there's no evidence of that. Second, even if it were true it wouldn't mean anything because (1) licenses simply are not equal to canonicity and (2) such a distinction is not at all apparent through their products (but instead they are presented as a single canon anyway) and thus the concept becomes irrelevant and pointless.

Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point

Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories

At the start of the article in that very link:

Quote
Today, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!

Hmmm... sounds like he might be "promoting falsehoods"...

How do you mean? It sounds more like you're promoting misunderstandings.

« Last Edit: Nov 02, 2020, 01:37:19 AM by TurokSwe »

Xenomrph
Nov 02, 2020, 01:46:24 AM
Reply #37 on: Nov 02, 2020, 01:46:24 AM
That says they're going to make more Alien, Predator, and AvP stories. I'm not sure what your point is?

My point is that they're keeping the established shared universe alive.
That's not what they're saying. They don't use the word "universe" even once in that article.


That's, just, like, your opinion, man.

I'm not very fond of confusing facts with opinions.
Again, the lack of self-awareness is incredible. ;D

What does that even mean? There's a shitload of fans who don't like AvP, letting AvP be its own separate thing caters to all kinds of fans and lets you "keep your fanbase".
Yes, there are many fans who don't like AVP (although mostly referring to the two movies and not the concept as a whole)
[citation needed]

but if they insist upon disregarding it then they can just do so and let the rest of the fanbase operate in peace without all the unnecessary confusion and division.
There is no confusion and division, people who disregard it have their own canon. What's confusing about that?

How? What part of it is too complex or confusing for you to understand?

Because the audience is gonna have to try and make sense of everything because the products ties into each other and because you cause division in the fanbase and people become frustrated and disinterested.
No they don't, they do what they always do - they choose what they want and disregard the rest. They simply have an "official" outlet for that if they want to follow one. If what you were saying was remotely true, this franchise and fanbase would have died out decades ago.

You are literally getting what you want[/b] with the existence of an AvP canon, while others who aren't a fan of AvP get what they want.

Duh!
Then why are you arguing against it?

What do you have against people other than you getting what they want?

Nothing unless what these other people want is going to cause troubles for the entire community, as these endless canon debates have been a constant demonstration about.

Doesn't that lead to less confusion and division?

Not in the slightest, as these canon debates have shown.
You are the cause of the canon debate, in case you were a little slow on the uptake. When there are three canons, there is no debate.

If people don't want to engage with AvP materials but still want to follow "the official canon", there is a path for them.

You're still following the official canon even if you disregard certain aspects of it. There's no need for separate canons. A unified canon not only unifies the audience but it also offers you the choice of a preferred canon if you must insist, and all you have to do is to literally ignore certain aspects of the canon.
There is no unified audience, even if you had one singular canon you'd have tons of people believing what they want to believe anyway.
While I personally don't ascribe to this, there are people (obviously yourself included) who care about what "the official canon" is and want to follow it. Having three canons allows those people to do that, and is far more inclusive than having just one.

Like, arguing against three canons makes you seem like an uncompromising asshole - especially when, once again, you're already getting what you want.

Right back atcha for arguing against a unified canon for the general audience and general fanbase where more picky eaters are otherwise allowed to choose what they want while not causing any problems for the rest.
Nah dawg, you're the one being the asshole by trying to force non-AvP fans to engage with AvP materials at the risk of being "wrong" or "picky eaters".
There are canons for those "picky eaters", you can just choose not to engage with it and let it exist in peace.

Again, what is your endgame in forcing people to accept AvP as a singular canon, when you yourself acknowledge that people can choose to disregard what they want?

How so? What, exactly, is your endgame here? Even if you ended up being "right" you'd still have mountains of people who opt to do their own thing anyway, as they have been for decades. People operate independent of the "official canon", they aren't beholden to it or somehow "wrong" if they choose not to follow it.

I think I have made myself abundantly clear already here.
Yeah you have: "Like, arguing against three canons makes you seem like an uncompromising asshole - especially when, once again, you're already getting what you want."

The lack of self-awareness present here is astounding. :D

I'm sorry but this response assumes that I'm a picky eater, which I'm not. When we have a unified canon, you can choose to ignore certain aspects of it if you insist, but that will be your choice and it won't affect the canon and it won't affect others who follow the entire canon and you will therefore have no grounds for causing division and confusion among the rest of the audience.
You keep using the term "division and confusion" as if people are somehow confused. Like, it couldn't be more clear. :D

Choosing to ignore the existence of two other canons is your prerogative, just as it is for anyone else to ignore pieces of said canons. That's the lack of self awareness - you are literally doing that which you claim to be against, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

[citation needed]

I'm sorry?
You said the entire fanbase embraces the entire official canon. I'm looking for a citation of that.

It's pretty f**kin' laughable that you, of all people, presume to speak for the highly diverse and opinionated group that is "the entire fanbase". Like, holy shit. Laughing my ass off over here.

Ok?
I'm not the one who presumed to speak for the entire fanbase, bro. And before you say you didn't, go re-read your post:

"the entire fanbase that embraces the entire official canon."

you're confusing the fact that these are three separate licenses but not three separate canons
[citation needed]
There you go conflating facts and opinion again. ;D

First, there's no evidence of that.
Yes there is, you've chosen to ignore it.

(1) licenses simply are not equal to canonicity
That is your opinion and you're welcome to it. :)
The owners of the franchises have deemed that franchise division = canon division, as is their prerogative to do so since they own them.

(2) such a distinction is not at all apparent through their products
As stated before, products =/= official policy. Also as stated before, official policy can change at the drop of a hat, independent of preexisting products. We have no evidence, even from products, that newly released materials are part of a singular shared universe as opposed to three. In fact, we have the opposite.

and thus the concept becomes irrelevant and pointless.
Bingo! Finally, a glimmer of understanding! ;D

« Last Edit: Nov 02, 2020, 02:02:11 AM by Xenomrph »

Trash Queen
Nov 02, 2020, 01:54:03 AM
Reply #38 on: Nov 02, 2020, 01:54:03 AM
TurokSWE -Take it from those of use who have been here for nearly ten years or much longer, there has never been a period of "peace" like right now, in regards to "canon wars" since Andrew Gaska's article defining the continuity and canon. There's no more division, because it's understood we're either talking along the lines of what's official as Andrew Gaska outlined or our personal preferences.
The only confusion caused here is me asking myself why you keep persisting along this line of thought?

It will gain you nothing, you look foolish, presenting your opinions as fact.


Xenomrph
Nov 02, 2020, 01:57:47 AM
Reply #39 on: Nov 02, 2020, 01:57:47 AM
I was about to edit my post and say essentially the same thing, but you put it better than I would have.


Mr.Turok
Nov 02, 2020, 02:42:04 AM
Reply #40 on: Nov 02, 2020, 02:42:04 AM
Agreed. I'll just address this one final time, its ok if you have your headcanon. Like I know everyone doesn't like Alien 3 and have their own take like using Neil's idea for Alien 3 but at the end of the day, Alien 3 happened. Both can exist. I know this feeling as I have similar feelings for another franchise, Terminator. I don't consider Terminator Dark Fate as the true 3rd movie of the series as its goes against what was established to what we all know and love in the series. I consider 1-Salvation+The Final Battle comic the true ending of the series as there is a coherent beginning and end to the series with a pleasing twist that I adore and feel that perfectly gives the proper send off. However I won't stop others from liking Dark Fate and I have to acknowledge that Dark Fate is part of the new timeline.

What I will not do is present my idea as true canon and convince others you are wrong and go against established lore and word of the creators. As much as I hate what Terminator ended up instead of following along Salvation and giving the time loop a proper end once and for all, I'm just a fan at the end of the day, thats how it is.

Ridley says AVP Weyland and Alien/Prometheus Weyland are two different people and stories, thats it. It sucks as I actually like Charles Weyland, as unlike what his company has become, Charles is actually a selfless and brave person while who does want to leave his own mark in history and grow his company. He doesn't screw his fellow people over and was willing to fight Scar one on one for Lex and Sebastian to survive. Its antithesis of poetic tragedy really, his company ends up becoming the opposite of who he is.

« Last Edit: Nov 02, 2020, 02:48:12 AM by Mr.Turok »

Corporal Hicks
Nov 02, 2020, 08:42:07 AM
Reply #41 on: Nov 02, 2020, 08:42:07 AM
TurokSwe, please consider this a once and final warning as I'm very sick of seeing your rude attitude towards the discussion, towards Gaska, and towards the people attempting to put out the correct information. I'm going to unlock the thread again now, but if one more of your posts is reported because of your attitude I'm afraid you wont be welcome here.

And to just cap off my post, Fiendish put it absolutely the best.

TurokSWE -Take it from those of use who have been here for nearly ten years or much longer, there has never been a period of "peace" like right now, in regards to "canon wars" since Andrew Gaska's article defining the continuity and canon. There's no more division, because it's understood we're either talking along the lines of what's official as Andrew Gaska outlined or our personal preferences.
The only confusion caused here is me asking myself why you keep persisting along this line of thought?

It will gain you nothing, you look foolish, presenting your opinions as fact.

If you have your own personal canon, that's absolutely fine! I have my own personal canon. But I also completely recognize that that is not what Fox/Studios/Disney had been working from, that was out-lined by Gaska. If you don't agree with it, that's fine. That's what your headcanon is for. But pretending your own opinion is fact, and disrespecting others in the process will not do you any favours.


TurokSwe
Nov 02, 2020, 10:07:13 AM
Reply #42 on: Nov 02, 2020, 10:07:13 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph
That's not what they're saying. They don't use the word "universe" even once in that article.

That's true but they don't distinguish between them as separate universes either but they lump them all together.

Quote from: Xenomrph
Again, the lack of self-awareness is incredible. ;D

The lack of carefulness and integrity here is astonishing.

Quote from: Xenomrph
[citation needed]

I beg your pardon?

Quote from: Xenomrph
There is no confusion and division, people who disregard it have their own canon. What's confusing about that?

That's unfortunately not true, as years of experience have shown. What's so confusing about that?

Quote from: Xenomrph
No they don't, they do what they always do - they choose what they want and disregard the rest. They simply have an "official" outlet for that if they want to follow one.

Yeah, those desiring separate canons do that, not those desiring a unified canon. But for the general audience it becomes increasingly confusing.

Quote from: Xenomrph
If what you were saying was remotely true, this franchise and fanbase would have died out decades ago.

I mean the franchise and fanbase isn't in a good state and hasn't been for a long while, but what do you mean exactly?

Quote from: Xenomrph
Then why are you arguing against it?

I'm not, I'm arguing against the idea of separate canons, not a unified canon.

Quote from: Xenomrph
You are the cause of the canon debate, in case you were a little slow on the uptake.

Yeah, sure, so for years I alone have been the source of debates about canon in the entire fanbase? Come on. If anything, I'm the end result of the canon debates I was exposed to over the years.

Quote from: Xenomrph
When there are three canons, there is no debate.

You keep telling yourself that, it will do little to affect reality.

Quote from: Xenomrph
There is no unified audience, even if you had one singular canon you'd have tons of people believing what they want to believe anyway.
While I personally don't ascribe to this, there are people (obviously yourself included) who care about what "the official canon" is and want to follow it. Having three canons allows those people to do that, and is far more inclusive than having just one.

You're right, there is no largely unified audience because division has been raging in the fanbase for years. And yes, even with one unified canon you of course will have those choosing which parts of the canon they wish to acknowledge or ignore, and they have every right to, and they're still following the official canon, they're just not ready to engage with all the other material offered in the official canon. Having separate canons causes division and confusion and is far less inclusive and by definition it is exclusive.

Quote from: Xenomrph
Nah dawg, you're the one being the asshole by trying to force non-AvP fans to engage with AvP materials at the risk of being "wrong" or "picky eaters".

I haven't done that at all. If they wish to ignore it they are free to do so, but they have no right to push their exclusivity and personal preferences upon the rest.

Quote from: Xenomrph
There are canons for those "picky eaters", you can just choose not to engage with it and let it exist in peace.

Tell that to all those picky eaters who insist upon complaining and arguing with those who do not share their separated canon.

Quote from: Xenomrph
Again, what is your endgame in forcing people to accept AvP as a singular canon, when you yourself acknowledge that people can choose to disregard what they want?

First, again, a unified canon discourages canon debates and the confusion and division that result from such promotion of separate canons. When you have a unified canon, everyone is still following it, even if some choose to ignore certain aspects of it.

Quote from: Xenomrph
Yeah you have: "Like, arguing against three canons makes you seem like an uncompromising asshole - especially when, once again, you're already getting what you want."

Or I am offering both a solution and compromise with a unified canon in that there is one canon and no one should any longer encourage any confusion or division or debates on this matter, and if someone wish to only delve into certain aspects of that canon then they are free to do so and it will affect nobody else. Separate canons do not give the fanbase what they want, they only make things worse for the fanbase.

Quote from: Xenomrph
You keep using the term "division and confusion" as if people are somehow confused. Like, it couldn't be more clear. :D

Yes, because apparently people find a lot of things confusing about this franchise and choose to engage in causing division over personal preferences. Having to explain that there are separate canons despite that it looks like the exact opposite and then having to explain what connects to what and why this or that is suddenly not connect to that or this naturally does cause a lot of confusion and frustration for the audience and it can make many disinterested in following it. There's got to be a stop to this madness.

Quote from: Xenomrph
Choosing to ignore the existence of two other canons is your prerogative, just as it is for anyone else to ignore pieces of said canons. That's the lack of self awareness - you are literally doing that which you claim to be against, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

But I haven't ignored any materials, I've not caused separation, and I'm promoting unity with freedom to choose what to engage with while not unnecessarily interferring with the rest of the community, so what you're saying here is not really true.

Quote from: Xenomrph
You said the entire fanbase embraces the entire official canon. I'm looking for a citation of that.

Oh come on, I did not say that.

Quote from: Xenomrph
I'm not the one who presumed to speak for the entire fanbase, bro. And before you say you didn't, go re-read your post: "the entire fanbase that embraces the entire official canon."

You took that out of context. The full sentence was; "If some people insist upon only having particular products and concepts part of their personal canon then there's nothing stopping them, but don't bring this personal canon upon the entire fanbase that embraces the entire official canon." My point was clearly not to argue that literally the entire fanbase embraces a unified canon, but I emphasized that the picky eaters can't force their particular preferences upon those who embrace the entire table or force this preference upon anyone in the fanbase at all.

Quote from: Xenomrph
There you go conflating facts and opinion again. ;D.

Explain yourself. Please.

Quote from: Xenomrph
Yes there is, you've chosen to ignore it.

No, the "evidence" you refer to hasn't been ignored by me but rejected by me for good reasons, as we've dealt with enough already, and you gain nothing by mindlessly repeating yourself about this.

Quote from: Xenomrph
That is your opinion and you're welcome to it. :) The owners of the franchises have deemed that franchise division = canon division, as is their prerogative to do so since they own them.

Not my opinion, it's a factual statement, anything else is a category mistake. The owners of the franchise (judging from their products, not unsubstantiated rumors) seems to have deemed that the four brands operate under a single canon, as indeed would be their prerogative to do as they own these licenses.

Quote from: Xenomrph
As stated before, products =/= official policy. Also as stated before, official policy can change at the drop of a hat, independent of preexisting products.

And as stated multiple times, I never argued that products are a definitive indicator of official policy, but they naturally do reflect official policy, and when they quite abundantly demonstrate the existence of a unified canon then the case is essentially settled, especially when there are no truly considerable arguments to the contrary being proposed.

Quote from: Xenomrph
We have no evidence, even from products, that newly released materials are part of a singular shared universe as opposed to three.

Which is a false statement; https://sites.google.com/view/xenoversecenter/xenoblog/2020-archive/exploring-canonicity-in-the-alien-and-predator-universe

Quote from: Xenomrph
In fact, we have the opposite.

Explain yourself or the assertion will be rejected without motivation.

Quote from: Xenomrph
Bingo! Finally, a glimmer of understanding! ;D

So you agree that it's logically pointless to argue that there are supposedly "three separate canons" because (1) the three canons reference each other and (2) the existence of just one canon that includes all three means it becomes completely redundant and irrelevant to argue about "three separate canons"? Awesome, finally some progress I guess!

Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive
TurokSWE -Take it from those of use who have been here for nearly ten years or much longer, there has never been a period of "peace" like right now, in regards to "canon wars" since Andrew Gaska's article defining the continuity and canon. There's no more division, because it's understood we're either talking along the lines of what's official as Andrew Gaska outlined or our personal preferences.

If only that were true, but judging from my personal experience, it's not the case.

Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive
The only confusion caused here is me asking myself why you keep persisting along this line of thought? It will gain you nothing, you look foolish, presenting your opinions as fact.

Because I don't want to see any more of all this confusion and division in the fanbase, but all I want is peace, and I could care less how foolish someone may consider my approach, especially when I'm not actually presenting my own opinions as fact and when I'm constantly being misrepresented and misunderstood.

Quote from: Mr.Turok
Agreed. I'll just address this one final time, its ok if you have your headcanon. Like I know everyone doesn't like Alien 3 and have their own take like using Neil's idea for Alien 3 but at the end of the day, Alien 3 happened. Both can exist. I know this feeling as I have similar feelings for another franchise, Terminator. I don't consider Terminator Dark Fate as the true 3rd movie of the series as its goes against what was established to what we all know and love in the series. I consider 1-Salvation+The Final Battle comic the true ending of the series as there is a coherent beginning and end to the series with a pleasing twist that I adore and feel that perfectly gives the proper send off. However I won't stop others from liking Dark Fate and I have to acknowledge that Dark Fate is part of the new timeline.

I agree. Although noting that in a case such as Terminator, you don't actually have separate canons, but you merely have one unified canon which operates on countless different timelines caused by the time travel aspect which is the unifying theme in that franchise.

Quote from: Mr.Turok
What I will not do is present my idea as true canon and convince others you are wrong and go against established lore and word of the creators. As much as I hate what Terminator ended up instead of following along Salvation and giving the time loop a proper end once and for all, I'm just a fan at the end of the day, thats how it is.

I wouldn't do that either, unless they are wrong.

Quote from: Mr.Turok
Ridley says AVP Weyland and Alien/Prometheus Weyland are two different people and stories, thats it. It sucks as I actually like Charles Weyland, as unlike what his company has become, Charles is actually a selfless and brave person while who does want to leave his own mark in history and grow his company. He doesn't screw his fellow people over and was willing to fight Scar one on one for Lex and Sebastian to survive. Its antithesis of poetic tragedy really, his company ends up becoming the opposite of who he is.

As has been stated many times by now, Ridley Scott is first of all not in charge of the Alien/Predator universe, and second of all Scott never even denounces Charles Weyland or AVP from continuity, nor is he allowed to by Fox, and Fox does not share his opinions, which Scott himself makes very clear. All that Scott does is really just (1) ignoring things just because and (2) get on people's nerves. I agree with your assessment of Charles though, he's a much more likable character than the one who inherited his throne!

« Last Edit: Nov 02, 2020, 12:45:36 PM by TurokSwe »

Xenomrph
Nov 02, 2020, 01:53:22 PM
Reply #43 on: Nov 02, 2020, 01:53:22 PM
I’m gonna guess you didn’t read Hicks’ post. I don’t think this is going to end well for you.


Corporal Hicks
Nov 02, 2020, 02:07:45 PM
Reply #44 on: Nov 02, 2020, 02:07:45 PM
When I say you're being rude, throwing out your opinions like they're actually facts is part of the problem. It's what makes it so infuriating for anyone to either converse with you, or just read your posts. You are not some official spokesperson for Fox/Studios. You have not worked on the properties. You do not speak for the decision-makers, or even have the insight knowledge that people like SM or Gaska do. I'm sorry but fan theories and preferences are just that, fan theories and preferences.

You reignite these conflicts with your opinions, causing arguments because you don't agree with the official listing passed down to us by the people who have worked for, who have defined the official internal canon. You are causing these issues.

We're not here to stamp down opinions, we love to discuss opinions and theories. But there are facts that if people refuse to even acknowledge, make discussions impossible and quite frankly boring. You are in that category, I'm afraid. As has been said, you're welcome to opinions and head-canon, you're not welcome to being a rude or obstinate. It's time to either stop, or rethink how you engage in discourse.

And as I keep saying, canon is absolutely meaningless to us. We do not write new books or new comics or games. Canon is a framework that matters only to the people who work in the franchises. The people making Alien books do not get to reference things from the other franchises. We know this. Alex White said this regarding Prometheus and the black goo and how it wasn't until Alien: Covenant introduced the elements that he was actually allowed to use them.

And that only applies to the expanded universe! The filmmakers aren't bound by this restriction! Expanded Universe and Theatrical sit completely separately! It's meaningless to us because it can change release by release, with the films making significant changes.

Enjoy which stories you like, hate which stories you don't. Have your own theories, but don't try and shove those theories and opinions down our throats and continually reignite conflicts that have been settled.

« Last Edit: Nov 02, 2020, 02:16:18 PM by Corporal Hicks »

 

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