If so what would be your ideal plot?
Yes, as long as you bring in the talent for writing/directing.
My fan fantasy?
Future w/marines trapped in a hive/colony type situation. Instead of rescue they are stumbled upon an experienced predator twin/duo who fight/hunt in tandem making the situation a total nightmare. The preds are not friendly and enjoy the opportunity to get some marine skulls.
The two preds have trained together specifically for this. They have come as part of a ritual to bring in a live queen without help from the clan.
The marines/colonists want to get the hell out.
The aliens need hosts.
Probably stupid but thats it right off of the top of my head.
Part of the story would focus on the pred duo and their reverence of the alien and importance of the rituals. Also a chance to show new alien hunting gear and an inventive way to get the queen.
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 10, 2020, 07:15:58 PM
The two preds have trained together specifically for this. They have come as part of a ritual to bring in a live queen without help from the clan.
------------
Part of the story would focus on the pred duo and their reverence of the alien and importance of the rituals. Also a chance to show new alien hunting gear and an inventive way to get the queen.
I'd never actually considered that as a plot point for a film. I know it's been done in some of the comics, but my head just tends to get stuck in the "do the basic Alien vs. Predator right" that I'd never even thought of it. I think that'd be quite thrilling to see.
How about one where the actual versus part is just incidental? Humans in space have an accident and crash land on a planet. It just happens to be that the planet has aliens, and there are predators that which are already actively hunting them.
Instead of whoever wins, we lose, yay-rah predator team up, you have it structured more like Pitch Black, where it's just about survival in the face of creatures you can't hope to comprehend.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 11, 2020, 09:35:52 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 10, 2020, 07:15:58 PM
The two preds have trained together specifically for this. They have come as part of a ritual to bring in a live queen without help from the clan.
------------
Part of the story would focus on the pred duo and their reverence of the alien and importance of the rituals. Also a chance to show new alien hunting gear and an inventive way to get the queen.
I'd never actually considered that as a plot point for a film. I know it's been done in some of the comics, but my head just tends to get stuck in the "do the basic Alien vs. Predator right" that I'd never even thought of it. I think that'd be quite thrilling to see.
I thought about it a bit more yesterday and the bare bones plot came pretty quickly.
The colony hive, marines waiting for inbound rescue. Predator twins show up to find/capture the queen. The marines and preds skirmish and some marines are turned into trophys.
The preds then turn to the task of entering the hive and taking the queen. The marines regroup and decide to look for the pred ship to see if there is any way to fly it to safety. There is some who assume the preds destroyed their rescue in orbit. When they find and enter the ship they engage a predator tech/pilot/priest who is still on the ship.
The preds have reached the queen and are in the process of readying their capturing equipment when their ship is accidently destroyed by the Marines. This destroys the containment gear and kills the queen in the process. The hive rages and attacks the two preds.
The marines suffer large casualties at the pred ship and have lost all hope. However they get word that their rescue has arrived and is inbound. They attempt to take all survivors to the landing bay.
The Hive is enraged at the loss of the queen, in the battle with the preds one of them is killed and the other is facehugged. When the predator awakens he knows he is doomed but only cares about wiping out the marines with the time he has left.
The last act has the Impregnated predator and the raging hive on a collision course for the marines and survivors headed to the landing bay.
Anyway I think thats the first fan fiction ive ever written down. Lots of plot holes but they could be addressed.
re-read this and it sounds like a better graphic novel
As said in this thread I think one of the keys to success with the AVP formula is to keep it simple. Do a breakdown of what makes the two franchises and the two creatures compelling and interesting at their best, and use that to build interesting confrontations between them.
Personally i'd skip going into any detail on how Predators feel about Aliens beyond subtextual stuff. Body langauge, behavior. No expositionary stuff about how glorious Aliens are to hunt. Retain mystery.
Instead you should have some, at least, somewhat compelling humans. A mixture of the archetypes found between Alien, Aliens, and Predator. Charming, humorous, working-class humans, maybe some guards or something.
Having the humans be the central focus and not really leaving their perspective whilst having the Alien and Predator dueling around them as they're trying not to get run over would probably work the best to generate effective tension.
I personally want to have the whole thing stripped way back. One Alien. One Predator. A fight to the death. Harsh, and hot, environment Humans that are competent and space-savvy, but ultimately in over their heads.
I would also like it to be Just one alien vs one predator. Been watching the Tremors series lately, got me thinking why not have it set on a desert world with a small mining colony, a predator ship crashes, the colonists go to investigate, see evidence of a broken Cage and a bloody pilot seat but no bodies, implying the Alien escaped and the Predator got injured in the fight. Now the Predator is off hunting the Alien with colonists stuck in the middle. Most of it should take place at night, and the characters should be a mix of good and bad people like a real western. You'd have plenty of people for the Alien and Predator to kill and most of all, it should not delve into any kind of lore, I'm sick of these movies always trying to expand on these creatures, just go back to basics and shut the hell up about Predator culture and Alien life-cycles....and autism spine juice.
I don't even welcome the second one.
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on May 12, 2020, 12:35:12 AM
I would also like it to be Just one alien vs one predator. Been watching the Tremors series lately, got me thinking why not have it set on a desert world with a small mining colony, a predator ship crashes, the colonists go to investigate, see evidence of a broken Cage and a bloody pilot seat but no bodies, implying the Alien escaped and the Predator got injured in the fight. Now the Predator is off hunting the Alien with colonists stuck in the middle. Most of it should take place at night, and the characters should be a mix of good and bad people like a real western. You'd have plenty of people for the Alien and Predator to kill and most of all, it should not delve into any kind of lore, I'm sick of these movies always trying to expand on these creatures, just go back to basics and shut the hell up about Predator culture and Alien life-cycles....and autism spine juice.
Location-wise a desert landscape makes a lot of sense. Predators like it hot, Alien films that are planet bound have been very consistent in being wastelands. People always want it to be a "jungle planet" because Predator, but I really think the desert would be a better fit. Something African in feel. Make it very primal.
Your idea is interesting. Would that mean the Alien was just a regular Big Chap or was it a Predalien creature? For me, seeing a Jungle Hunter-type Predator take on a Big Chap type Alien is what I want. True to the title. ALIEN vs PREDATOR. Someone posted a tour video of a wax museum, and it literally features a life size Big Chap standing to with a Jungle Hunter Predator... And it made me sad, because that was the childhood dream. To see the two of them duke it out.
Quote from: OpenMaw on May 12, 2020, 01:09:43 AM
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on May 12, 2020, 12:35:12 AM
I would also like it to be Just one alien vs one predator. Been watching the Tremors series lately, got me thinking why not have it set on a desert world with a small mining colony, a predator ship crashes, the colonists go to investigate, see evidence of a broken Cage and a bloody pilot seat but no bodies, implying the Alien escaped and the Predator got injured in the fight. Now the Predator is off hunting the Alien with colonists stuck in the middle. Most of it should take place at night, and the characters should be a mix of good and bad people like a real western. You'd have plenty of people for the Alien and Predator to kill and most of all, it should not delve into any kind of lore, I'm sick of these movies always trying to expand on these creatures, just go back to basics and shut the hell up about Predator culture and Alien life-cycles....and autism spine juice.
Location-wise a desert landscape makes a lot of sense. Predators like it hot, Alien films that are planet bound have been very consistent in being wastelands. People always want it to be a "jungle planet" because Predator, but I really think the desert would be a better fit. Something African in feel. Make it very primal.
Your idea is interesting. Would that mean the Alien was just a regular Big Chap or was it a Predalien creature? For me, seeing a Jungle Hunter-type Predator take on a Big Chap type Alien is what I want. True to the title. ALIEN vs PREDATOR. Someone posted a tour video of a wax museum, and it literally features a life size Big Chap standing to with a Jungle Hunter Predator... And it made me sad, because that was the childhood dream. To see the two of them duke it out.
It was a regular Big Chap, I hate the idea that an Alien needs to be some special breed in order to go toe to toe with a predator. He's not called the perfect organism for nothing,
At most, I would welcome a new sequel to the first AVP. That or an entire reboot.
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 10, 2020, 07:15:58 PM
Yes, as long as you bring in the talent for writing/directing.
My fan fantasy?
Future w/marines trapped in a hive/colony type situation. Instead of rescue they are stumbled upon an experienced predator twin/duo who fight/hunt in tandem making the situation a total nightmare. The preds are not friendly and enjoy the opportunity to get some marine skulls.
The two preds have trained together specifically for this. They have come as part of a ritual to bring in a live queen without help from the clan.
The marines/colonists want to get the hell out.
The aliens need hosts.
Probably stupid but thats it right off of the top of my head.
Part of the story would focus on the pred duo and their reverence of the alien and importance of the rituals. Also a chance to show new alien hunting gear and an inventive way to get the queen.
What a neat dea. It doesn't even need to be a third movie, but a soft reboot instead.
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on May 12, 2020, 01:40:43 AM
It was a regular Big Chap, I hate the idea that an Alien needs to be some special breed in order to go toe to toe with a predator. He's not called the perfect organism for nothing,
I agree, absolutely.
What's interesting is that an Alien basically acts as a beautiful counter to a Predator.
The Predator's native vision is infrared. Aliens don't tend to show up in infrared.
Predator's cloaking technology is useless against the Alien.
Predator's shoulder cannon, fuses and cauterizes wounds, meaning that Alien acid blood would be neutralized.
Predator is an incredible hunter, but Alien is very cunning and capable of setting traps.
Both creatures are very durable, honestly on par in both their physical prowess and their heartiness.
Honestly, with a Predalien, I think that should be done in a very different way than it has been done. For as terrified as we are of the Alien ourselves, the Predator should have that same reaction to a Predalien.
Alien vs Predator feels to me more like a gimmick than a concept with any real potential. I think the most fun it has ever been was the Alien skull in Predator 2, and even that only as a joke rather than something to take seriously.
I don't like the first AVP, outright hated the sequel, and I don't see any concept really reinvigorating my interest in the idea at all.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on May 12, 2020, 11:55:16 AM
Alien vs Predator feels to me more like a gimmick than a concept with any real potential. I think the most fun it has ever been was the Alien skull in Predator 2, and even that only as a joke rather than something to take seriously.
I don't like the first AVP, outright hated the sequel, and I don't see any concept really reinvigorating my interest in the idea at all.
Except it wasn't done as a joke. It was done as a loving nod to the comic book. That first comic series is proof enough that it is not a gimmick.
The films they did make were not executed well. It's just that simple. Bad films. Not a bad concept.
Agreed
Quote from: OpenMaw on May 12, 2020, 04:40:52 PM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on May 12, 2020, 11:55:16 AM
Alien vs Predator feels to me more like a gimmick than a concept with any real potential. I think the most fun it has ever been was the Alien skull in Predator 2, and even that only as a joke rather than something to take seriously.
I don't like the first AVP, outright hated the sequel, and I don't see any concept really reinvigorating my interest in the idea at all.
Except it wasn't done as a joke. It was done as a loving nod to the comic book. That first comic series is proof enough that it is not a gimmick.
The films they did make were not executed well. It's just that simple. Bad films. Not a bad concept.
I haven't read the comic, but I've read the AVP Prey novelization; I see the appeal for other people, but for me, personally, I just don't find the concept of pitting the two creatures together to be engaging at all. They're two totally different styles of movie, and nothing about them really screams compatible to me.
Perfect organism versus Ultimate alien hunter. This sounds about right to me.
Anyways, the Alien Queen is still available for sequel as far as I'm concerned.
Complete reboot or nothing.
Quote from: OpenMaw on May 11, 2020, 05:44:46 PM
I personally want to have the whole thing stripped way back. One Alien. One Predator. A fight to the death. Harsh, and hot, environment Humans that are competent and space-savvy, but ultimately in over their heads.
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on May 12, 2020, 12:35:12 AM
I would also like it to be Just one alien vs one predator. Been watching the Tremors series lately, got me thinking why not have it set on a desert world with a small mining colony, a predator ship crashes, the colonists go to investigate, see evidence of a broken Cage and a bloody pilot seat but no bodies, implying the Alien escaped and the Predator got injured in the fight. Now the Predator is off hunting the Alien with colonists stuck in the middle. Most of it should take place at night, and the characters should be a mix of good and bad people like a real western. You'd have plenty of people for the Alien and Predator to kill and most of all, it should not delve into any kind of lore, I'm sick of these movies always trying to expand on these creatures, just go back to basics and shut the hell up about Predator culture and Alien life-cycles....and autism spine juice.
This is what they need to start with if Disney ever commits to AVP. God forgive me for writing this but go "back to the roots". No new dumb mega forms, no lore revelations just classic 1v1 hunter and beast with humans in the middle.
Quote from: OpenMaw on May 12, 2020, 04:40:52 PM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on May 12, 2020, 11:55:16 AM
Alien vs Predator feels to me more like a gimmick than a concept with any real potential. I think the most fun it has ever been was the Alien skull in Predator 2, and even that only as a joke rather than something to take seriously.
I don't like the first AVP, outright hated the sequel, and I don't see any concept really reinvigorating my interest in the idea at all.
Except it wasn't done as a joke. It was done as a loving nod to the comic book. That first comic series is proof enough that it is not a gimmick.
The films they did make were not executed well. It's just that simple. Bad films. Not a bad concept.
Absolutely. This is one of those occasions when the concept has potential and is totally worth exploring. The problem is that artists are sometimes not skilled enough to execute such an idea.
(https://i.imgur.com/wA227jI.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/8bgbjF3.png)
No. I have seen enough Alien abuse.
Predator is too almighty. Alien should ally with humans in a third movie. :laugh:
The way I see it, Aliens always ally with humans. Facehugger cements the alliance.
Only IF they have a bigger budget. And the Director is an Action Master like Michael Bay or Zack Snyder.
Quote from: RidleyScott99 on May 20, 2020, 10:00:38 PM
Only IF they have a bigger budget. And the Director is an Action Master like Michael Bay or Zack Snyder.
(https://i.imgur.com/ny9UInd.gif)
Quote from: OpenMaw on May 21, 2020, 08:34:47 PM
Quote from: RidleyScott99 on May 20, 2020, 10:00:38 PM
Only IF they have a bigger budget. And the Director is an Action Master like Michael Bay or Zack Snyder.
https://i.imgur.com/ny9UInd.gif
Meh, it's not like the series deserves anyone better at this point. both Bay and Snyder could pull it off, as long as Snyder doesn't write it, he's not great when it comes to writing.
AVP is a monster movie. Anybody walking into that theater or turning on that movie wants to see these two things go at it. It's kind of like a Godzilla movie where most simply don't care about the philosophy, they just want to see monster gore. I say don't even make it a horror movie. If a third was to even happen it should be about highlighting what audiences love about these creatures first. Show both in their element and then introduce them to each other.
I disagree on both points. They're both stylistically wrong, and the series still deserves to get a decent director. AVP isn't just action. It's suspense, and atmosphere. Bay and Snyder suck at both. They know style, and they know spectacle. They don't know nuance or subtlety. They wouldn't inject either creature with anything but Brutish violence.
Quote from: OpenMaw on May 23, 2020, 05:36:04 AM
I disagree on both points. They're both stylistically wrong, and the series still deserves to get a decent director. AVP isn't just action. It's suspense, and atmosphere. Bay and Snyder suck at both. They know style, and they know spectacle. They don't know nuance or subtlety. They wouldn't inject either creature with anything but Brutish violence.
Suspense and atmosphere? Did you see 13 Hours? it's got plenty of both.
I'd totally be up for another Alien versus Predator.......assuming it ignored the Alien prequels.
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on May 23, 2020, 12:23:43 AM
AVP is a monster movie.
A number of people told O'Bannon, Scott, and Giger that about Alien. It's just a stupid B-movie about a monster that comes out of some blokes chest. Why take it seriously?
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on May 23, 2020, 05:51:54 AM
Suspense and atmosphere? Did you see 13 Hours? it's got plenty of both.
Yeah and I didn't really feel any suspense or atmosphere. It was typical Michael Bay fair. Perhaps, a little more reserved given that he had veterans and a whole bunch of advisors breathing down his neck.
Quote from: EJA on May 23, 2020, 08:16:32 PM
I'd totally be up for another Alien versus Predator.......assuming it ignored the Alien prequels.
Agreed. Ignore everything but the original films, and even with them only using them as touchstones for stylistic and tonal choices. No naming characters "Dallas" or having someone yell "Get to the choppah!" or any variants on "One Ugly Mother f*cker" The only effective rehash of that line was Nikolai's Russian in Predators.
Actually, on reflection............I think it might be possible to make an AVP movie while still adhering to the Alien prequels, by having the Aliens and Predators have their very first encounter in the future of the Alien movies, ditching the whole "long, shared history" angle.
It would be interesting if they would set a third film on the predators home planet.
A third film in the existing chronology? No.
Another AvP that's actually grounded in the better AvP stuff (future etc)? Sure.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jun 03, 2020, 08:27:58 PM
Another AvP that's actually grounded in the better AvP stuff (future etc)? Sure.
Forever this.
If there was another one the suit design and creature effects would have to be absolutely on point for me. If that ADI Resurrection mould ever appeared again I'd be automatically dismissive of a new film. Just being honest.
I would like to see Odd studios take on the creature effects again after Covenant. Loved the behind-the-scenes stuff where they had the Alien on stilts for that towering, shadowy figure reminiscent of '79. Defo the way to go.
Quote from: seattle24 on Jun 04, 2020, 08:06:28 AM
If there was another one the suit design and creature effects would have to be absolutely on point for me. If that ADI Resurrection mould ever appeared again I'd be automatically dismissive of a new film. Just being honest.
I would like to see Odd studios take on the creature effects again after Covenant. Loved the behind-the-scenes stuff where they had the Alien on stilts for that towering, shadowy figure reminiscent of '79. Defo the way to go.
My personal preference, specifically for AvP, would be a zazzed up version of the 86 design for the Aliens. A little bit taller and maybe a bit gangrel in proportion. Covenant nailed the long/thin vibe, just add Giger/Winston era detailing.
No, no more avp for me. Had enough.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 04, 2020, 07:21:15 AM
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jun 03, 2020, 08:27:58 PM
Another AvP that's actually grounded in the better AvP stuff (future etc)? Sure.
Forever this.
Yes, a movie with no references to the previous ones. A reboot if you like.
The plot in the comic is not too bad either, predators deposit eggs on a planet and then they hunt the aliens afterwards but fail to realize the planet is already colonized by humans.
Or perhaps something unique like the first interaction between Predator and Alien, that way the predator won't have the advantage of acid proof weapons or any foreknowledge.
It could be like Predators hunting humans on an unknown planet, humans inadvertadly discover a derelict ship or temple, find eggs in stasis and some people get infect, while the predators think there are still hunting humans, they get surprised by the new arrivals. The predators using everything they have to survive the perfect organism.
Just one though. One Predator hunting one Alien.
I'd love to see the numbers restricted too. And each encounter, if they end up getting away from each other, or being distrupted, needs to have an impact too. I want to see lasting wounds. I want to see limps and broken appendages.
Yep, a one on one is all that is needed really and the threat level posed by them increases. A large number of each and they can be killed off easily. But with one of each, their presence will need to remail until the end of the film.
And I had this talk with Sil a bit at one point, but you gotta have a definitive winner. No collapsing castle ending.
Why not have a series of both franchises on Netflix.
And pick up the director who handled them the best or who got the right tone.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 17, 2020, 09:42:51 AM
I'd love to see the numbers restricted too. And each encounter, if they end up getting away from each other, or being distrupted, needs to have an impact too. I want to see lasting wounds. I want to see limps and broken appendages.
Missed opportunity with the film was Celtic's fight with Grid. Say Celtic was the survivor instead of Scar, it'd have been the team getting ambushed and Celtic continuing to get beaten down, escaping, and then the fight with the Queen.
Like Celtic can go head to head with an Alien but several and he's outmatched hard. From the fight with Grid he loses his wrist blades, a chunk of his armor, and resources like medical kits wearing thin. Then you could have even shown the effects on the helmet with his vision possibly being disrupted as a result of the fight so the survivors could escape and maybe a vision mode is lost to him or the thing starts going on the fritz. That'd be an easy way of explaining the facehugging. He had to take it off because he couldn't otherwise see and had to return to Chopper or Scar's body for a replacement since one of them would still be functional. Then at the end thinking he's won and could get medical treatment he then has to fight the Queen and dies in the process anyways.
Just constantly beating the poor guy down. Then in the flashback we see what a successful hunt is supposed to look like with the Predators acting as a team and being vigilant. So that way when we get back to Celtic it's clear that the three had been over their head.
Continuous back and forth between Celtic and Grid? Not a bad idea, however we do need a human factor to relate to. Maybe Scar and Grid, Alexa getting caught in the middle?
Ridley Scott or Jim Cameron or John McTiernan Directing
Nah, it had to be someone with experience and good touch with monsters. GDT maybe?
I'd love another AVP movie. The original comic was one of the things that got me into the whole Alien and Predator universe back in the day, I loved the early PC games and I've always loved the concept overall.
Obviously at this point it'd be something unconnected to the previous two films since more than enough time has passed, Disney now owns the rights to the characters and the second one didn't leave a lot to follow on from anyway. I'd be fine with a future setting though I wouldn't mind it if it was set on Earth again either (controversial opinion: I was totally fine with AVP:R's setting!).
I wouldn't want it to be a "1v1" situation though. You can get away with that in monster movies like the Godzilla series because those guys aren't known for killing their opponents 100% of the time whenever they fight them, so you can have multiple "they fight, one is defeated, they split up again" situations throughout the films. If you only had one Alien and one Predator though you'd either have to have them avoid each other for the entire movie until the end, which would suck in a film titled "Alien vs Predator", or come up with multiple contrived ways for them to fight but never actually kill each other until the end, neither of which sounds particularly satisfying.
You don't need so many that they're being killed off left right and center every couple of minutes, but enough to give us some satisfying fights throughout the film.
I'd absolutely want to see some one on one fights though, especially if they played up some of the characteristics of both characters in a manner that created a lot of tension.
Imagine if you had a human character who's realised the Predators see in thermal vision and cranks up the internal heating in a colony/complex/ship etc. to match human body temperature in an effort to conceal themselves from it. They run into a room to hide from one that's hunting them, only to realise there's an Alien in there too, hiding up in the ceiling or amongst some pipes like at the end of the original Alien.
The Predator enters looking for them, but it can't see them because they're hidden by the ambient heat. Nor can it see the Alien because they don't show up on thermal vision. But the human can see them both, and the Alien can see the human and the Predator. So you've got this Predator stalking around in an enclosed space looking for someone he knows is there but can't find, an Alien trying to slowly and quietly maneuver to get to one or both of them but not let the Predator know it's there, and the human silently trying to avoid them both and get the hell out of there. Something like the kitchen scene in Jurassic Park only with a three-way enemy split.
That's one way you could utilise the two characters specifically to create tension and suspense, not just have their encounters be purely based around action (though obviously I'd want that too! :laugh:).
Quote from: OpenMaw on May 11, 2020, 05:44:46 PM
As said in this thread I think one of the keys to success with the AVP formula is to keep it simple. Do a breakdown of what makes the two franchises and the two creatures compelling and interesting at their best, and use that to build interesting confrontations between them.
This. There's a reason these two franchises fit so well together and the AVP concept has had such long legs and success in so many different mediums, and it's not just because they both feature alien creatures. Both franchises utilise the same basic elements, tension, suspense, horror, action, besides the titular creatures being such good and obvious matches for each other. They're a natural fit. It's not like you're trying to mash together Police Academy and Schindler's List. We just unfortunately haven't had a film yet that has truly capitalised on its potential, especially in the tension/suspense department, which imo is one of the things that makes Alien, Aliens and Predator so damn good. So if we ever did get another AVP, I'd definitely like it to focus on the tension/suspense aspects of the match-up too.
I'd love AVP 3. I would feel like you would have to have it be a soft reboot. Especially after covenant & The Predator. Maybe call the movie AVP. No alien or predator in the title.
Have to set it in the future, have the main character be a colonel marine who has survived an interaction with the aliens in the past. They call him back to lead a team (kinda like Dutch in Predator) to go into a alien outbreak an rescue the survivors. Of the survivors we have a research scientists (kinda a Ripley character) who been task with uncovering the secrets of the alien & is the leader of the survivors keeping them alive during this infestation. When the marines get there they realize that it's no ordinary bug hunt as a team of 3 predators (throw back to them always hunting in 3 in predators & AVP1) are there to kidnap a queen for future hunts.
The movies unfold & it ends with the predators dying but still being able to achieve their goal by capturing the queen. This can set up another AVP if the film is successful. Also our male & female leads would survive. Now they can go on to be the separate leads in a solo Predator or alien films that take place after. Giving us franchise leads who can be developed into deep multi film characters that we have not had since Ripley & something Predator has never had.
Quote from: chopperXgill on Jul 18, 2020, 01:26:49 AM
I'd love AVP 3. I would feel like you would have to have it be a soft reboot. Especially after covenant & The Predator. Maybe call the movie AVP. No alien or predator in the title.
Have to set it in the future, have the main character be a colonel marine who has survived an interaction with the aliens in the past. They call him back to lead a team (kinda like Dutch in Predator) to go into a alien outbreak an rescue the survivors.
That's a hands down a cool idea. Plus, I would welcome a Dutch vibe in a colonial marine character 8)
Considering we're going to have to wait for another movie for God knows how long, thanks to Disney and the pandemic, I'd rather not have to wait all that time only to receive more of what we've seen with the prequels.
These movies don't get pumped out like super hero flicks or SAW movies. We only get one if all the stars line up. Look at the gaps between Predator 2 and Predators, and A:R to Prometheus. And thanks to The Predator, there might now be a 20+ year gap between decent predator films by the time the next one comes out.
I'd rather gamble on a new direction with the next Alien film. One that might actually boost public interest in the franchise, and lead to more entries at better intervals.
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 18, 2020, 04:09:15 PM
These movies don't get pumped out like super hero flicks or SAW movies. We only get one if all the stars line up. Look at the gaps between Predator 2 and Predators, and A:R to Prometheus. And thanks to The Predator, there might now be a 20+ year gap between decent predator films by the time the next one comes out.
Lets say 7 years till a new one. Now that is 20 years since AVPR. Disney is all about making money & the best way to shoot life into both franchises is to have a AVP film that is amazing. Show faith to the fans that they can do it & allow new generic viewers into both universes at the same time. It is the average movie seeing person that makes or breaks a film in the box office. I can not imagine them continuing the Fox movies, Disney is going to reboot the film properties just like the comic books. The best way would be an AVP film, kill two birds with one stone. It is the only logical move from a business standpoint.
The concept is great but i feel like hollywood is not gonna put the effort needed on making an actual good movie out of it.
It needs a big budget, i am thinking about 200$ million dollars, as little cgi as possible, a very well thought out story happening IN THE FUTURE that takes element from both franchises (they should just use Alien/Aliens/Alien 3/Predator and Predator 2 as inspiration and ignore everything else) and creates a synergy between them.
It has to be serious and dark but have some few "light" moments, it needs a lot of suspense and leave the creatures in the background most of the time, have action but not be the focus, maybe escalate to an action packed third act, it needs an interesting story with good characters which should be the focus of the story, it has to be very careful planned and made but most important: it has to be a good movie, that is why the story and characters have to be the principal thing and the creatures secondary, just like in the first Alien/Predator movie, otherwise it wont work.
I think having a few of each creature is the better idea, maybe have several Predators and a Swarm of Aliens at the end would be a spectacular sight but a more restricted take would work better, just one of each is interesting.
AVP2, by far the best thing to be done with the concept, should also be a source of inspiration because it got a lot of things right. Is nto impossible, they are just not putting their souls into it.
There was a thread here long ago that talked about what if the fact that the concept of each franchise are opposites is why the movies did not worked, being Alien and Predator related to feminine and masculine themes respectively, but that is exactly what could make a great movie, they have to dig into what everything means in each movie and make those ideas clash, make something very psichological and sexual, oir at the very least make a braindead spectacle, but well done.
Quote from: D88M on Jul 20, 2020, 12:43:42 AM
There was a thread here long ago that talked about what if the fact that the concept of each franchise are opposites is why the movies did not worked, being Alien and Predator related to feminine and masculine themes respectively, but that is exactly what could make a great movie, they have to dig into what everything means in each movie and make those ideas clash, make something very psichological and sexual, oir at the very least make a braindead spectacle, but well done.
This is genius, I never heard of that comparison for the franchises before
Just adapt Prey and don't make it Youngblood, use machiko and broken tusk, the audience is ready for it, the tech is here, it could be great. You don't even need to follow up with Hunters planet, just end the movie with Machiko's line "maybe I can claim a few trophies of my own"
That's literally it. Do that and do it right and I'm pretty sure everyone would be happy
Are we talking a new third film in the Aliens series? F&@k yeah!
I would be happy to see 10 different takes on where the story could go from there until we hit the right note.
AVP? Just adapt the original DH series as is. It was clearly designed to be a film.
Predator. I actually really liked Predators, so no. Retcon The Predator and bring back Dutch!
Quote from: chopperXgill on Jul 20, 2020, 01:00:42 AM
Quote from: D88M on Jul 20, 2020, 12:43:42 AM
There was a thread here long ago that talked about what if the fact that the concept of each franchise are opposites is why the movies did not worked, being Alien and Predator related to feminine and masculine themes respectively, but that is exactly what could make a great movie, they have to dig into what everything means in each movie and make those ideas clash, make something very psichological and sexual, oir at the very least make a braindead spectacle, but well done.
This is genius, I never heard of that comparison for the franchises before
It is very interesting, here is the original thread https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=9490.0
Quote from: D88M on Jul 27, 2020, 02:17:24 PM
Quote from: chopperXgill on Jul 20, 2020, 01:00:42 AM
Quote from: D88M on Jul 20, 2020, 12:43:42 AM
There was a thread here long ago that talked about what if the fact that the concept of each franchise are opposites is why the movies did not worked, being Alien and Predator related to feminine and masculine themes respectively, but that is exactly what could make a great movie, they have to dig into what everything means in each movie and make those ideas clash, make something very psichological and sexual, oir at the very least make a braindead spectacle, but well done.
This is genius, I never heard of that comparison for the franchises before
It is very interesting, here is the original thread https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=9490.0
Fantastic read, Thank you!!
Adapt the OG Comic for the screen. Job done.
Quote from: Beef Dogg on Aug 09, 2020, 10:57:56 AM
Adapt the OG Comic for the screen. Job done.
That would be amazing!
I'm completely down for a reboot but, unlike others in the thread (and against Ridley Scott's will :laugh:) I wouldn't mind the story being more in tune with what the Alien Prequels were establishing. Maybe make the Aliens something new for the Predators so that they ultimately seek out to experiment as well as hunt the newfound species. It would offer a completely different angle from the typical 'Predators using and hunting aliens for thousands of years' concept.
At the risk of convoluting the story even more, I would be curious to see how an interaction between a Predator and Engineer would play out. Both species are old and hold themselves above anything else that there would undoubtedly be bloodshed. Maybe we could see the effects of the black goo on a Predator and have that encounter peek the interest of the Predators for that planet... then again, for simplicity's sake, maybe hint to this concept or leave it out entirely.
That aside, I think most would agree that if there's ever another AVP movie, it should take place in the future. And if there's anything that we have learned from the last two movies, it's that the human characters are equally as important in being interesting as well as worthy prey. Having AVP revolve around a newly colonized planet, to give it an isolated feel, with some Blue Collar Workers as well as some officials that are trained in combat, would be a pretty good combo of characters.
Quote from: PredBabe on Aug 16, 2020, 03:52:43 PM
I'm completely down for a reboot but, unlike others in the thread (and against Ridley Scott's will :laugh:) I wouldn't mind the story being more in tune with what the Alien Prequels were establishing. Maybe make the Aliens something new for the Predators so that they ultimately seek out to experiment as well as hunt the newfound species. It would offer a completely different angle from the typical 'Predators using and hunting aliens for thousands of years' concept.
I hadn't really thought about it from the angle of them having something new to hunt. I still wouldn't want to lean into Scott's "new" angle, but perhaps something new derived from the Alien. Perhaps seeming the Predators deal with the Neomorphs could be interesting!
QuoteAt the risk of convoluting the story even more, I would be curious to see how an interaction between a Predator and Engineer would play out. Both species are old and hold themselves above anything else that there would undoubtedly be bloodshed. Maybe we could see the effects of the black goo on a Predator and have that encounter peek the interest of the Predators for that planet... then again, for simplicity's sake, maybe hint to this concept or leave it out entirely.
Engineer vs. Predator would be something I'd be interested in seeing, especially if it played out different to how it was presented in Fire and Stone. Would love to see them actually go up against something with comparable technology!
Just not interested in merging the Engineers with the predators at all. One is high-idea science fiction and the other is low-brow.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 17, 2020, 12:10:25 PM
Just not interested in merging the Engineers with the predators at all. One is high-idea science fiction and the other is low-brow.
Ah, the my-big-puffy-pale-humanoid-alien is higher brow than your-big-leathery-mandibled-humanoid-alien stance.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/l46CDHTqbmnGZyxKo/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 17, 2020, 12:10:25 PM
Just not interested in merging the Engineers with the predators at all. One is high-idea science fiction and the other is low-brow.
Yeah the idea that humans are the centre of the universe is incredibly low brow for science fiction. I like how the Predator franchise makes us just another species in a universe of strange and alien life, rather than the direct creation of gods who are also humans. That's more religion than sci fi.
Sounds like our leathery skinned friend needs to f*ck up the Engineer's "perfect composure"!
(https://i.imgur.com/6DZEmeT.jpg)
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 17, 2020, 08:41:10 AM
Quote from: PredBabe on Aug 16, 2020, 03:52:43 PM
I'm completely down for a reboot but, unlike others in the thread (and against Ridley Scott's will :laugh:) I wouldn't mind the story being more in tune with what the Alien Prequels were establishing. Maybe make the Aliens something new for the Predators so that they ultimately seek out to experiment as well as hunt the newfound species. It would offer a completely different angle from the typical 'Predators using and hunting aliens for thousands of years' concept.
I hadn't really thought about it from the angle of them having something new to hunt. I still wouldn't want to lean into Scott's "new" angle, but perhaps something new derived from the Alien. Perhaps seeming the Predators deal with the Neomorphs could be interesting!
QuoteAt the risk of convoluting the story even more, I would be curious to see how an interaction between a Predator and Engineer would play out. Both species are old and hold themselves above anything else that there would undoubtedly be bloodshed. Maybe we could see the effects of the black goo on a Predator and have that encounter peek the interest of the Predators for that planet... then again, for simplicity's sake, maybe hint to this concept or leave it out entirely.
Engineer vs. Predator would be something I'd be interested in seeing, especially if it played out different to how it was presented in Fire and Stone. Would love to see them actually go up against something with comparable technology!
I like the idea of a neomorph being added to the mix especially if an Engineer is involved.
Seeing a Predator go up against another species that is equally as large and technologically advanced could be awesome if written and done right.
If we're really going to have a crossover of these two franchises, then why not play around with different concepts between the two universes? It may be refreshing to see that added lore.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Aug 17, 2020, 01:42:17 PM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 17, 2020, 12:10:25 PM
Just not interested in merging the Engineers with the predators at all. One is high-idea science fiction and the other is low-brow.
The stance is not misguided. One species just hunts without greater purpose. The other creates. The difference in class is not in what they look like, but in what they do. Anyway, it's a totally fair point that some people want the two species to cross paths, but it's not for me.
Voodoo, I know you're a Predator fan but surely you can see that the whole idea of the Predator was intended to be somewhat campy, whereas Ridley Scott was really trying to elevate the Aliens series through Prometheus. There's a different tone here, that can't be denied. Putting the two together would be like as if we were in the middle of a scene from Arrival, and suddenly E.T. Walks out onto the scene and says "E.T. Phone home...". It's just not a fit.
I hope I didn't come across as belittling your interests here. While I'm not a big Predator fan, I can recognize that it is its own thing and it must be treated on its own terms. It does what it does really well. It's just not the same thing.
Ah, the my-big-puffy-pale-humanoid-alien is higher brow than your-big-leathery-mandibled-humanoid-alien stance.
https://media2.giphy.com/media/l46CDHTqbmnGZyxKo/giphy.gif
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 12:27:53 AM
The stance is not misguided. One species just hunts without greater purpose. The other creates. The difference in class is not in what they look like, but in what they do.
What's particularly "high brow" about creation exactly?
Creation and destruction are two sides of the same coin -- a point
Prometheus makes.
What higher purpose is there for the Engineer's creation? The only answer the films give is "because they can." How is that profound?
Prometheus even ends with the Engineer as little more than a stumbling, albino Frankenstein's Monster, lurching and groaning as it chases down the heroine. There's nothing deep or profound there. In fact, whatever the intent, the execution of the Engineer has distinctly less character or nuance than the Predator, which is successfully
shown -- rather than said to be -- an intelligent, thinking being with history and culture
Quote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 12:38:01 AM
Prometheus even ends with the Engineer as little more than a stumbling, albino Frankenstein's Monster, lurching and groaning as it chases down the heroine. There's nothing deep or profound there. In fact, whatever the intent, the execution of the Engineer has distinctly less character or nuance than the Predator, which is successfully shown -- rather than said to be -- an intelligent, thinking being with history and culture
I have to agree there. Pretty eyes aside :laugh: Scar is a character unlike the last Engineer, who is just a dumb angry monster.
Yeah, I definitely wish there was more nuance to the portrayal of
Prometheus' Final Engineer. I'm still rather torn on the whole Space Jockey to Engineer reinterpretation, but conceptually
Prometheus appeals to me even though it is contradictory to many of the things that I love about
Alien. The film is a fascinating mess, and so is my relationship with it. :D The execution is where all of my real problems with
Prometheus stem from, and the Final Engineer is a sort of perfect microcosm of that.
I love the moment when he rips off David's head and kills Weyland (and am glad they cut his 'alien' speech) but I wish he was less generic movie monster in his pursuit of Shaw.
There are some small beats in the longer version of this sequence that would have helped a little bit, I think. Though the movie still would be riddled with a thousand other problems.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 12:42:51 AM
Quote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 12:38:01 AM
Prometheus even ends with the Engineer as little more than a stumbling, albino Frankenstein's Monster, lurching and groaning as it chases down the heroine. There's nothing deep or profound there. In fact, whatever the intent, the execution of the Engineer has distinctly less character or nuance than the Predator, which is successfully shown -- rather than said to be -- an intelligent, thinking being with history and culture
I have to agree there. Pretty eyes aside :laugh: Scar is a character unlike the last Engineer, who is just a dumb angry monster.
Oh come on, he just woke up!
Quote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 12:38:01 AM
What's particularly "high brow" about creation exactly?
LOLOLOL :laugh:
Seriously? You don't think there's anything fancy about our universe which may have been created in any way you choose to subscribe to, but created nonetheless? Ain't life grand?
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 18, 2020, 01:15:07 AM
Yeah, I definitely wish there was more nuance to the portrayal of Prometheus' Final Engineer. I'm still rather torn on the whole Space Jockey to Engineer reinterpretation, but conceptually Prometheus appeals to me even though it is contradictory to many of the things that I love about Alien. The film is a fascinating mess, and so is my relationship with it. :D The execution is where all of my real problems with Prometheus stem from, and the Final Engineer is a sort of perfect microcosm of that.
I love the moment when he rips off David's head and kills Weyland (and am glad they cut his 'alien' speech) but I wish he was less generic movie monster in his pursuit of Shaw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTR1xwak3Fw
There are some small beats in the longer version of this sequence that would have helped a little bit, I think. Though the movie still would be riddled with a thousand other problems.
I so wish we had this extra footage in the film. Also the dialogue with David would have added more dimension. I agree that this is missing. But it somehow kept the mystery of these beings intact, mostly. Mostly.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 12:27:53 AM
The stance is not misguided. One species just hunts without greater purpose. The other creates. The difference in class is not in what they look like, but in what they do.
Yet, getting down to brass tax, as I watch Prometheus, this Engineer ends up being, as SiL effectivelying described... "little more than a stumbling, albino Frankenstein's Monster, lurching and groaning as it chases down the heroine."
And I see less complexity in that, than the Elder in P2...
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OwqWe0wz0fY/maxresdefault.jpg)
QuoteAnyway, it's a totally fair point that some people want the two species to cross paths, but it's not for me.
That's 100% fair. But that's not what I was responding too, but rather your posting "
Just not interested in merging the Engineers with the predators at all. One is high-idea science fiction and the other is low-brow." You were comparing the beings.
Artistic quality, tone, cinematography, etc. can all be measured and compared. But when your talking Engineers vs Predators specifically in a movie ironically similar to AvP in many ways, what we didn't get with the Engineers is high-idea science fiction. Not the way I see it. I'm unabashedly a fan of Prometheus, but The Monolith and the Starchild, the Engineer, is not. Not what we got on film. Not even close. You need tons of corrective and expansive EU content or a clever imagination to connect those far away dots to "high-idea science fiction." The way I see it, Prometheus is much closer to AvP than it is to 2001 A Space Odyssey.
(https://gatewaylocation.org/wp-content/uploads/bfi_thumb/starchild-2001-space-odyssey-mno584tvb0dwwf1cg2veun2z22w71msk5awpocj3qk.jpg)
Quote from: PredBabe on Aug 17, 2020, 11:12:26 PM
Sounds like our leathery skinned friend needs to f*ck up the Engineer's "perfect composure"!
https://i.imgur.com/6DZEmeT.jpg
:laugh:
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 02:29:21 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 12:42:51 AM
Quote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 12:38:01 AM
Prometheus even ends with the Engineer as little more than a stumbling, albino Frankenstein's Monster, lurching and groaning as it chases down the heroine. There's nothing deep or profound there. In fact, whatever the intent, the execution of the Engineer has distinctly less character or nuance than the Predator, which is successfully shown -- rather than said to be -- an intelligent, thinking being with history and culture
I have to agree there. Pretty eyes aside :laugh: Scar is a character unlike the last Engineer, who is just a dumb angry monster.
Oh come on, he just woke up!
Yeah maybe :laugh:
But seriously, that Engineer was as deep as infected Fifield...
(https://i.ibb.co/CM4HzTw/gif-4.gif)
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 03:11:52 AM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 02:29:21 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 12:42:51 AM
Quote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 12:38:01 AM
Prometheus even ends with the Engineer as little more than a stumbling, albino Frankenstein's Monster, lurching and groaning as it chases down the heroine. There's nothing deep or profound there. In fact, whatever the intent, the execution of the Engineer has distinctly less character or nuance than the Predator, which is successfully shown -- rather than said to be -- an intelligent, thinking being with history and culture
I have to agree there. Pretty eyes aside :laugh: Scar is a character unlike the last Engineer, who is just a dumb angry monster.
Oh come on, he just woke up!
Yeah maybe :laugh:
But seriously, that Engineer was as deep as infected Fifield...
(https://i.ibb.co/CM4HzTw/gif-4.gif)
Makes me think, if they wanted to go pure brute force with the Final Engineer, it would have been pretty cool to see him partially infected by the pahtogen and slowly mutating/deforming/deconstructing as he pursues Shaw. Perhaps even "seeding" part of the land he walks on as he goes, bringing new primordial life to LV-223 as the pathogen and his DNA mix.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Aug 18, 2020, 02:58:09 AM
The way I see it, Prometheus is much closer to AvP than it is to 2001 A Space Odyssey.
And yet, Scar is more like a character than the Engineer. Hell! neither of them speak! but Anderson knew how to make a character out of that Predator. Unlike grandpa Riddles, who was just being pretentious.
And you know what? I absolutely love that you brought the star child. Monoliths are the definitive
"how you should run a creator in scifi".Cheers! ;) ;D
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 18, 2020, 03:16:17 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 03:11:52 AM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 02:29:21 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 12:42:51 AM
Quote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 12:38:01 AM
Prometheus even ends with the Engineer as little more than a stumbling, albino Frankenstein's Monster, lurching and groaning as it chases down the heroine. There's nothing deep or profound there. In fact, whatever the intent, the execution of the Engineer has distinctly less character or nuance than the Predator, which is successfully shown -- rather than said to be -- an intelligent, thinking being with history and culture
I have to agree there. Pretty eyes aside :laugh: Scar is a character unlike the last Engineer, who is just a dumb angry monster.
Oh come on, he just woke up!
Yeah maybe :laugh:
But seriously, that Engineer was as deep as infected Fifield...
(https://i.ibb.co/CM4HzTw/gif-4.gif)
Makes me think, if they wanted to go pure brute force with the Final Engineer, it would have been pretty cool to see him partially infected by the pahtogen and slowly mutating/deforming/deconstructing as he pursues Shaw. Perhaps even "seeding" part of the land he walks on as he goes, bringing new primordial life to LV-223 as the pathogen and his DNA mix.
I agree. If you're going to make it uncivilized, at least make it scary. 8)
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 03:23:36 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Aug 18, 2020, 02:58:09 AM
The way I see it, Prometheus is much closer to AvP than it is to 2001 A Space Odyssey.
And yet, Scar is more like a character than the Engineer. Hell! neither of them speak! but Anderson knew how to make a character out of that Predator. Unlike grandpa Riddles, who was just being pretentious.
And you know what? I absolutely love that you brought the star child. Monoliths are the definitive "how you should run a creator in scifi".
Oh yes...!
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/f5d42a3e542c39f00665dc49eb207617/tenor.gif)
"
My God, it's full of stars!"
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CarelessRepulsiveHornedtoad-size_restricted.gif)
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 02:29:21 AM
LOLOLOL :laugh:
Seriously? You don't think there's anything fancy about our universe which may have been created in any way you choose to subscribe to, but created nonetheless? Ain't life grand?
If you can't answer the question then I'm guessing nothing.
The film strongly implies they create because they can, not for some "greater purpose". We see one Engineer create anything in two films. The Predator series does a better job of showing hunting has a greater purpose to Predators than the prequels show creation being a cornerstone for Engineers.
So really it's about hunting and connecting with the living forces of the universe for a greater purpose vs creation for shits and giggles (and I guess terraforming is implied).
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Aug 18, 2020, 02:58:09 AM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 12:27:53 AM
The stance is not misguided. One species just hunts without greater purpose. The other creates. The difference in class is not in what they look like, but in what they do.
Yet, getting down to brass tax, as I watch Prometheus, this Engineer ends up being, as SiL effectivelying described... "little more than a stumbling, albino Frankenstein's Monster, lurching and groaning as it chases down the heroine."
And I see less complexity in that, than the Elder in P2...
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OwqWe0wz0fY/maxresdefault.jpg)
QuoteAnyway, it's a totally fair point that some people want the two species to cross paths, but it's not for me.
That's 100% fair. But that's not what I was responding too, but rather your posting "Just not interested in merging the Engineers with the predators at all. One is high-idea science fiction and the other is low-brow." You were comparing the beings.
Artistic quality, tone, cinematography, etc. can all be measured and compared. But when your talking Engineers vs Predators specifically in a movie ironically similar to AvP in many ways, what we didn't get with the Engineers is high-idea science fiction. Not the way I see it. I'm unabashedly a fan of Prometheus, but The Monolith and the Starchild, the Engineer, is not. Not what we got on film. Not even close. You need tons of corrective and expansive EU content or a clever imagination to connect those far away dots to "high-idea science fiction." The way I see it, Prometheus is much closer to AvP than it is to 2001 A Space Odyssey.
(https://gatewaylocation.org/wp-content/uploads/bfi_thumb/starchild-2001-space-odyssey-mno584tvb0dwwf1cg2veun2z22w71msk5awpocj3qk.jpg)
Quote from: PredBabe on Aug 17, 2020, 11:12:26 PM
Sounds like our leathery skinned friend needs to f*ck up the Engineer's "perfect composure"!
https://i.imgur.com/6DZEmeT.jpg
:laugh:
You make valid points Voodoo Magic! Yes you do. I have been making the 2001 comparison internally for a while, and I would agree that Prometheus comes up short.
Engineers cannot climb to the level of star-child because the Aliens series is about horror / sci-fi. It will never be 2001, but out of the recent spate of Sci-fi, I'd say that Prometheus and Arrival get the closest to that point where 2001 sits. Also worthy of note is that the engineers are human much as Star-Child employs the same symbology. We are getting into the realm of higher intelligence, through 2001 and I would say Prometheus skirts that territory, just before it subverts it through savage violence. The Predators on the other hand seem to deal with savage violence as a first priority, and only in glimpses do we get to see their "wisdom". It's literally the opposite to engineers. Then again, perhaps I'm just projecting my own human bias...
Quote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 03:34:08 AM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 02:29:21 AM
LOLOLOL :laugh:
Seriously? You don't think there's anything fancy about our universe which may have been created in any way you choose to subscribe to, but created nonetheless? Ain't life grand?
If you can't answer the question then I'm guessing nothing.
The film strongly implies they create because they can, not for some "greater purpose". We see one Engineer create anything in two films. The Predator series does a better job of showing hunting has a greater purpose to Predators than the prequels show creation being a cornerstone for Engineers.
So really it's about hunting and connecting with the living forces of the universe for a greater purpose vs creation for shits and giggles (and I guess terraforming is implied).
What's awesome about creation is that it allows for the experience of 3-D space and the material which occupies that space. Without anyone or thing to appreciate the majesty of our universe, it would be devoid of purpose. Nobody would even perceive that it is taking place. The ability for creatures and beings of higher sentience (well, some of us) to perceive the universe and even recognize beauty in it, serves to justify its existence. So yes, there is something great about creation. The truth is, we simply didn't get to explore the motivations of the Engineers. The Engineers remain almost as mysterious now as they were when we first saw them on screen.
Anyway, to each their own. I really appreciate Prometheus. It is mesmerizing in its beauty, almost to the point where I can overlook most of its shortcomings. I vastly prefer it to anything Predator related, and I am definitely not inclined to see the two mixed anymore. But I can appreciate why some fans would want to see that. I still remember my excitement at those firs Dark Horse Presents issues featuring the beginning to AVP back in the early 90's. Good times.
QuoteThe ability for creatures and beings of higher sentience (well, some of us) to perceive the universe and even recognize beauty in it, serves to justify its existence. So yes, there is something great about creation. The truth is, we simply didn't get to explore the motivations of the Engineers. The Engineers remain almost as mysterious now as they were when we first saw them on screen.
I never said they wasn't anything great about it, but you said creation for its own sake is somehow profound.
Creation is an every day part of life, just as much as death and destruction is. Regardless of how heady one thinks the concepts are, the way
Prometheus portrays creation is so low-brow it certainly doesn't deserve to get put on a pedestal. It has an interesting idea and violently refuses to do anything interesting or thought-provoking with it.
"They made us?"
"Why?"
"Let's ask."
"RRRAAAARGH WHO WOKE UP SLEEPY MAN GRRRR"
That's too high brow for Predator? Eeh.
(I dislike adding Engineers to the mix because it starts being too many elements in the soup, just so we're clear.)
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 03:44:21 AM
Engineers cannot climb to the level of star-child because the Aliens series is about horror / sci-fi. It will never be 2001, but out of the recent spate of Sci-fi, I'd say that Prometheus and Arrival get the closest to that point where 2001 sits. Also worthy of note is that the engineers are human much as Star-Child employs the same symbology. We are getting into the realm of higher intelligence, through 2001 and I would say Prometheus skirts that territory, just before it subverts it through savage violence. The Predators on the other hand seem to deal with savage violence as a first priority, and only in glimpses do we get to see their "wisdom". It's literally the opposite to engineers. Then again, perhaps I'm just projecting my own human bias...
I would have preferred a thousand times that Space Jockeys were like monoliths. The watchers who sometimes help with a little nudge to the more primitive life forms, thus accelerating their evolution. Actually, I think Prometheus would have worked better with the Engineer as the next evolutionary leap for mandkind, with the Space Jockeys being responsible for this evolution.
You can have monsters and a ominous atmosphere in between anyway. :P
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 04:18:02 AM
Actually, I think Prometheus would have worked better with the Engineer as the next evolutionary leap for mandkind, with the Space Jockeys being responsible for this evolution.
I think a lot of people would've been happier with that option. Jockey Monoliths and Engineer Star Children.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 12:42:51 AM
Quote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 12:38:01 AM
Prometheus even ends with the Engineer as little more than a stumbling, albino Frankenstein's Monster, lurching and groaning as it chases down the heroine. There's nothing deep or profound there. In fact, whatever the intent, the execution of the Engineer has distinctly less character or nuance than the Predator, which is successfully shown -- rather than said to be -- an intelligent, thinking being with history and culture
I have to agree there. Pretty eyes aside :laugh: Scar is a character unlike the last Engineer, who is just a dumb angry monster.
And what about Scar's enchanting eyes?! ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/eOzmvlp.gif)
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 18, 2020, 01:15:07 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTR1xwak3Fw
I haven't seen this uncut version before but they should have left it in the theatrical release as it adds some much needed depth to the final Engineer. Good stuff.
Some great points made in regards to the Predators having more depth than what was established for the Engineers.
I have the same concern of adding too many elements to the soup for AVP, specifically in film format. But maybe there's a tactful way of including it in some capacity. Maybe showing a scene at the very beginning of the movie that gives us a glimpse at the bloodshed between the two species and the Alien elements before hundreds/thousands of years later humans try to inhabit the same planet.
Quote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 04:10:21 AM
"They made us?"
"Why?"
"Let's ask."
"RRRAAAARGH WHO WOKE UP SLEEPY MAN GRRRR"
:D
Quote from: Kradan on Aug 18, 2020, 01:44:06 PM
Quote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 04:10:21 AM
"They made us?"
"Why?"
"Let's ask."
"RRRAAAARGH WHO WOKE UP SLEEPY MAN GRRRR"
:D
"RRRAAAARGH WHO WOKE UP SLEEPY MAN GRRRR"LOL That's a keeper!
You know what folks? Maybe that wasn't very nice of me to say that Predator is low-brow. It's a very unique sci-fi proposition and although it is not my cup of tea as much as the Aliens films, that doesn't mean it is trash. It doesn't try to tackle the big questions as a film series, but that shouldn't diminish its value.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 19, 2020, 03:50:42 AM
You know what folks? Maybe that wasn't very nice of me to say that Predator is low-brow. It's a very unique sci-fi proposition and although it is not my cup of tea as much as the Aliens films, that doesn't mean it is trash. It doesn't try to tackle the big questions as a film series, but that shouldn't diminish its value.
QuoteI love this conversation and it had me thinking big, like wall of text big and I'm not that good simplifying complex ideas so I put the other parts in spoilers but I hope you all can do the kindness of amusing my thoughts.
Well I always figured why not elevate the Predator into a higher meaning? Its the reason why I liked the new lore that the Alpha Predator brought to the table. They aren't simply murderous hunters that simply hunt for sport. Rather, as at least how I interpret it, the reason why they are the hunter-warrior race that upholds the Hunt as something sacred and traditional is that they were both biologically and culturally brought up this way due to a imperialistic and highly advanced alien race that subjected them for over hundreds of thousands of years for their own cruel needs and desires. Where its for food, experimentation, or entertainment, the Hish had forcefully evolved to become the Predators that we now know today. The fact that they rose up and killed their overlords for the chance at freedom and to show dominance over the Amengi, they embraced, as what I think, the hunter-warrior way with the ancient tribal ways of the past, to never again be prey for any being, rather they shall be the ones on top instead.
While not mentioned at all to how the Honor Code came to be, I always liked the idea that Alpha created that code. To show that even though they will walk the path of the hunter-warrior and hunt the most dangerous beings in the universe, that they will show honor and mercy while they Hunt. With the memories of the atrocities that the Amengi has committed in mind, he brings forth theses laws so that they will not lower themselves to the level of their hated enemies. They will not dishonor themselves if you will. As for fitting in the Engineers vs Predators?
Spoiler
I can see it possible with a little lube and tinkering here. Inspired by Ahab's characterization and motives for the search of Engineers, it made me want to see an Elder as the main Predator character for the next AVP film, even if there is an Engineer involved or not. It can bring a sense of wisdom and even more indepth look into Predator culture than we have seen in past films. Early lore like the Prey novel had shown that not only Elders are wise hunters of over many hunts and centuries of experience that they use to teach and pass to the next generation but also ones that practice philosophy. The novel also states that hunters are also taught to be open to new experiences and wisdom, something that is kind of forgotten in later media. What I want to know is what is that philosophy they preach and practice? Why the Hunt, and why so sacred? What is their view point of the Hunt with interactions of various lifeforms? This is where I would personally use history as inspiration for Predator lore.
In many hunter-warrior cultures, like the Norse vikings, various native american tribes, tribes in Africa, there is a common theme of being one with nature, awareness of the world around you, and respect of said nature. Nature is much more powerful than you, no matter how much you can shape it, it can and will bounce back on you if you disrespect it. When it comes to animals and plantlife, take what you need and not in unhealthy excess or else you will find yourself with nothing when you need those resources the most. Predators already have these ideas in their lore, having a gods associated with thunder, war, and hunt, understanding that eventually no matter how skilled a hunter is, the Black Warrior (Death) will claim you as time is always on its side. While they don't hunt for sustenance, they also don't excessively kill or set out to conquer other lifeforms. They come in, take their "need" and leave the rest of the race alone. Hell, as we all know they practice respect of the being that kills one of their own, letting them live and a gift to show their respect. Norse vikings practice the notion of adopting rival warriors into their own ranks if they seem badass enough after facing them in battle. I would drive the point of Predators having the galactical viewpoint of letting nature and life take its course, hunting dangerous prey for honor and tradition, knowing full well that they can too meet death in equal manner but also never set out to conquer or overtake as such ideals are folly and would become the very enemy that subjected their kind so long ago. They hunt and kill however never in excess, but also realize that they are beings that should be shown the proper respect and dues when they defeat one of their own
And this is where the Engineers would come in. I always seen the Engineers as a twisted symbol of creation and Aliens as extinction. They create, but so far they have created horrible beings and weapons of extinction such as Aliens and the Black Liquid. And when they create something and dislike what they have, even if they are sapient beings with fears, wants, needs, cognitive thinking and other various traits, who are they, the Engineers to destroy them only because they don't like what they see? Who are you to judge to condemn an entire race to extinction, do you really own them? You create them, leave and never even guide them to a better state of being? Are you like the parents who birthed you, abandoned you, and after happily living with adopted parents who love you suddenly crash into your life again like if its nothing, jus picking where you left off, the nerve of that thinking? Some gods you are.
I would have the Elder not only see the Engineer as a powerful worthy game to fight, but also something sacrilegious condensed into form, a mortal being pretending to be a god? Something that would violate its own sense of alien morality. You create and then destroy if you don't like it instead of being nature be? Disregard the beings before you as just mere projects without acknowledgment of what they are? Not even a measure of mercy and honor? Who in the hell do you think you are?
I would like to have Predators and Engineers be an anthesis of one another, like how Aliens are with Predators. Aliens are neutral extinction, they kill and their reproduction is violent with no dissemination but they do so as that's how they are. Predators are noble destruction, kill and take but never in excess that would endanger the overall planet. Engineers are corrupted creation, they create life but if the results doesn't please them, away it goes.
Sorry for the double post, but a thought had occurred to me; How do you see Dutch and the OWLF fit in a third AVP film?
I don't think OWLF will just disperse in a few years since Predators will still continue to hunt humans. Not only that but humanity will come in contact with other lifeforms in the future and it would seem to force OWLF to shift gears on adding xenomorphs to the list once they realize how deadly they are to humanity. The events of LV-426 would be impossible to ignore, especially its on military record. Not only that, but Dutch is officially biologically immortal so unless he was killed before the third AVP film, he would around 300 years into the future. Seeing to how he considers Predators to be a threat to humanity, there is no doubt that he would view both xenomorphs and Predators that must be dealt with.