Posted by Mr.Turok
- Oct 22, 2020, 03:06:08 AMSorry for the double post, but a thought had occurred to me; How do you see Dutch and the OWLF fit in a third AVP film?
I don't think OWLF will just disperse in a few years since Predators will still continue to hunt humans. Not only that but humanity will come in contact with other lifeforms in the future and it would seem to force OWLF to shift gears on adding xenomorphs to the list once they realize how deadly they are to humanity. The events of LV-426 would be impossible to ignore, especially its on military record. Not only that, but Dutch is officially biologically immortal so unless he was killed before the third AVP film, he would around 300 years into the future. Seeing to how he considers Predators to be a threat to humanity, there is no doubt that he would view both xenomorphs and Predators that must be dealt with.
I don't think OWLF will just disperse in a few years since Predators will still continue to hunt humans. Not only that but humanity will come in contact with other lifeforms in the future and it would seem to force OWLF to shift gears on adding xenomorphs to the list once they realize how deadly they are to humanity. The events of LV-426 would be impossible to ignore, especially its on military record. Not only that, but Dutch is officially biologically immortal so unless he was killed before the third AVP film, he would around 300 years into the future. Seeing to how he considers Predators to be a threat to humanity, there is no doubt that he would view both xenomorphs and Predators that must be dealt with.
Posted by Mr.Turok
- Sep 23, 2020, 04:22:06 AMQuote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 19, 2020, 03:50:42 AM
You know what folks? Maybe that wasn't very nice of me to say that Predator is low-brow. It's a very unique sci-fi proposition and although it is not my cup of tea as much as the Aliens films, that doesn't mean it is trash. It doesn't try to tackle the big questions as a film series, but that shouldn't diminish its value.
QuoteI love this conversation and it had me thinking big, like wall of text big and I'm not that good simplifying complex ideas so I put the other parts in spoilers but I hope you all can do the kindness of amusing my thoughts.
Well I always figured why not elevate the Predator into a higher meaning? Its the reason why I liked the new lore that the Alpha Predator brought to the table. They aren't simply murderous hunters that simply hunt for sport. Rather, as at least how I interpret it, the reason why they are the hunter-warrior race that upholds the Hunt as something sacred and traditional is that they were both biologically and culturally brought up this way due to a imperialistic and highly advanced alien race that subjected them for over hundreds of thousands of years for their own cruel needs and desires. Where its for food, experimentation, or entertainment, the Hish had forcefully evolved to become the Predators that we now know today. The fact that they rose up and killed their overlords for the chance at freedom and to show dominance over the Amengi, they embraced, as what I think, the hunter-warrior way with the ancient tribal ways of the past, to never again be prey for any being, rather they shall be the ones on top instead.
While not mentioned at all to how the Honor Code came to be, I always liked the idea that Alpha created that code. To show that even though they will walk the path of the hunter-warrior and hunt the most dangerous beings in the universe, that they will show honor and mercy while they Hunt. With the memories of the atrocities that the Amengi has committed in mind, he brings forth theses laws so that they will not lower themselves to the level of their hated enemies. They will not dishonor themselves if you will. As for fitting in the Engineers vs Predators?
Spoiler
I can see it possible with a little lube and tinkering here. Inspired by Ahab's characterization and motives for the search of Engineers, it made me want to see an Elder as the main Predator character for the next AVP film, even if there is an Engineer involved or not. It can bring a sense of wisdom and even more indepth look into Predator culture than we have seen in past films. Early lore like the Prey novel had shown that not only Elders are wise hunters of over many hunts and centuries of experience that they use to teach and pass to the next generation but also ones that practice philosophy. The novel also states that hunters are also taught to be open to new experiences and wisdom, something that is kind of forgotten in later media. What I want to know is what is that philosophy they preach and practice? Why the Hunt, and why so sacred? What is their view point of the Hunt with interactions of various lifeforms? This is where I would personally use history as inspiration for Predator lore.
In many hunter-warrior cultures, like the Norse vikings, various native american tribes, tribes in Africa, there is a common theme of being one with nature, awareness of the world around you, and respect of said nature. Nature is much more powerful than you, no matter how much you can shape it, it can and will bounce back on you if you disrespect it. When it comes to animals and plantlife, take what you need and not in unhealthy excess or else you will find yourself with nothing when you need those resources the most. Predators already have these ideas in their lore, having a gods associated with thunder, war, and hunt, understanding that eventually no matter how skilled a hunter is, the Black Warrior (Death) will claim you as time is always on its side. While they don't hunt for sustenance, they also don't excessively kill or set out to conquer other lifeforms. They come in, take their "need" and leave the rest of the race alone. Hell, as we all know they practice respect of the being that kills one of their own, letting them live and a gift to show their respect. Norse vikings practice the notion of adopting rival warriors into their own ranks if they seem badass enough after facing them in battle. I would drive the point of Predators having the galactical viewpoint of letting nature and life take its course, hunting dangerous prey for honor and tradition, knowing full well that they can too meet death in equal manner but also never set out to conquer or overtake as such ideals are folly and would become the very enemy that subjected their kind so long ago. They hunt and kill however never in excess, but also realize that they are beings that should be shown the proper respect and dues when they defeat one of their own
And this is where the Engineers would come in. I always seen the Engineers as a twisted symbol of creation and Aliens as extinction. They create, but so far they have created horrible beings and weapons of extinction such as Aliens and the Black Liquid. And when they create something and dislike what they have, even if they are sapient beings with fears, wants, needs, cognitive thinking and other various traits, who are they, the Engineers to destroy them only because they don't like what they see? Who are you to judge to condemn an entire race to extinction, do you really own them? You create them, leave and never even guide them to a better state of being? Are you like the parents who birthed you, abandoned you, and after happily living with adopted parents who love you suddenly crash into your life again like if its nothing, jus picking where you left off, the nerve of that thinking? Some gods you are.
I would have the Elder not only see the Engineer as a powerful worthy game to fight, but also something sacrilegious condensed into form, a mortal being pretending to be a god? Something that would violate its own sense of alien morality. You create and then destroy if you don't like it instead of being nature be? Disregard the beings before you as just mere projects without acknowledgment of what they are? Not even a measure of mercy and honor? Who in the hell do you think you are?
I would like to have Predators and Engineers be an anthesis of one another, like how Aliens are with Predators. Aliens are neutral extinction, they kill and their reproduction is violent with no dissemination but they do so as that's how they are. Predators are noble destruction, kill and take but never in excess that would endanger the overall planet. Engineers are corrupted creation, they create life but if the results doesn't please them, away it goes.
In many hunter-warrior cultures, like the Norse vikings, various native american tribes, tribes in Africa, there is a common theme of being one with nature, awareness of the world around you, and respect of said nature. Nature is much more powerful than you, no matter how much you can shape it, it can and will bounce back on you if you disrespect it. When it comes to animals and plantlife, take what you need and not in unhealthy excess or else you will find yourself with nothing when you need those resources the most. Predators already have these ideas in their lore, having a gods associated with thunder, war, and hunt, understanding that eventually no matter how skilled a hunter is, the Black Warrior (Death) will claim you as time is always on its side. While they don't hunt for sustenance, they also don't excessively kill or set out to conquer other lifeforms. They come in, take their "need" and leave the rest of the race alone. Hell, as we all know they practice respect of the being that kills one of their own, letting them live and a gift to show their respect. Norse vikings practice the notion of adopting rival warriors into their own ranks if they seem badass enough after facing them in battle. I would drive the point of Predators having the galactical viewpoint of letting nature and life take its course, hunting dangerous prey for honor and tradition, knowing full well that they can too meet death in equal manner but also never set out to conquer or overtake as such ideals are folly and would become the very enemy that subjected their kind so long ago. They hunt and kill however never in excess, but also realize that they are beings that should be shown the proper respect and dues when they defeat one of their own
And this is where the Engineers would come in. I always seen the Engineers as a twisted symbol of creation and Aliens as extinction. They create, but so far they have created horrible beings and weapons of extinction such as Aliens and the Black Liquid. And when they create something and dislike what they have, even if they are sapient beings with fears, wants, needs, cognitive thinking and other various traits, who are they, the Engineers to destroy them only because they don't like what they see? Who are you to judge to condemn an entire race to extinction, do you really own them? You create them, leave and never even guide them to a better state of being? Are you like the parents who birthed you, abandoned you, and after happily living with adopted parents who love you suddenly crash into your life again like if its nothing, jus picking where you left off, the nerve of that thinking? Some gods you are.
I would have the Elder not only see the Engineer as a powerful worthy game to fight, but also something sacrilegious condensed into form, a mortal being pretending to be a god? Something that would violate its own sense of alien morality. You create and then destroy if you don't like it instead of being nature be? Disregard the beings before you as just mere projects without acknowledgment of what they are? Not even a measure of mercy and honor? Who in the hell do you think you are?
I would like to have Predators and Engineers be an anthesis of one another, like how Aliens are with Predators. Aliens are neutral extinction, they kill and their reproduction is violent with no dissemination but they do so as that's how they are. Predators are noble destruction, kill and take but never in excess that would endanger the overall planet. Engineers are corrupted creation, they create life but if the results doesn't please them, away it goes.
[close]
Posted by Perfect-Organism
- Aug 19, 2020, 03:50:42 AMYou know what folks? Maybe that wasn't very nice of me to say that Predator is low-brow. It's a very unique sci-fi proposition and although it is not my cup of tea as much as the Aliens films, that doesn't mean it is trash. It doesn't try to tackle the big questions as a film series, but that shouldn't diminish its value.
Posted by Voodoo Magic
- Aug 18, 2020, 07:56:27 PMQuote from: Kradan on Aug 18, 2020, 01:44:06 PMQuote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 04:10:21 AM
"They made us?"
"Why?"
"Let's ask."
"RRRAAAARGH WHO WOKE UP SLEEPY MAN GRRRR"
"RRRAAAARGH WHO WOKE UP SLEEPY MAN GRRRR"
LOL That's a keeper!
Posted by Kradan
- Aug 18, 2020, 01:44:06 PMQuote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 04:10:21 AM
"They made us?"
"Why?"
"Let's ask."
"RRRAAAARGH WHO WOKE UP SLEEPY MAN GRRRR"
Posted by PredBabe
- Aug 18, 2020, 10:08:53 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 12:42:51 AMQuote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 12:38:01 AMI have to agree there. Pretty eyes aside
Prometheus even ends with the Engineer as little more than a stumbling, albino Frankenstein's Monster, lurching and groaning as it chases down the heroine. There's nothing deep or profound there. In fact, whatever the intent, the execution of the Engineer has distinctly less character or nuance than the Predator, which is successfully shown -- rather than said to be -- an intelligent, thinking being with history and cultureScar is a character unlike the last Engineer, who is just a dumb angry monster.
And what about Scar's enchanting eyes?!
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 18, 2020, 01:15:07 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTR1xwak3Fw
I haven't seen this uncut version before but they should have left it in the theatrical release as it adds some much needed depth to the final Engineer. Good stuff.
Some great points made in regards to the Predators having more depth than what was established for the Engineers.
I have the same concern of adding too many elements to the soup for AVP, specifically in film format. But maybe there's a tactful way of including it in some capacity. Maybe showing a scene at the very beginning of the movie that gives us a glimpse at the bloodshed between the two species and the Alien elements before hundreds/thousands of years later humans try to inhabit the same planet.
Posted by SiL
- Aug 18, 2020, 04:27:11 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 04:18:02 AMI think a lot of people would've been happier with that option. Jockey Monoliths and Engineer Star Children.
Actually, I think Prometheus would have worked better with the Engineer as the next evolutionary leap for mandkind, with the Space Jockeys being responsible for this evolution.
Posted by Immortan Jonesy
- Aug 18, 2020, 04:18:02 AMQuote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 03:44:21 AM
Engineers cannot climb to the level of star-child because the Aliens series is about horror / sci-fi. It will never be 2001, but out of the recent spate of Sci-fi, I'd say that Prometheus and Arrival get the closest to that point where 2001 sits. Also worthy of note is that the engineers are human much as Star-Child employs the same symbology. We are getting into the realm of higher intelligence, through 2001 and I would say Prometheus skirts that territory, just before it subverts it through savage violence. The Predators on the other hand seem to deal with savage violence as a first priority, and only in glimpses do we get to see their "wisdom". It's literally the opposite to engineers. Then again, perhaps I'm just projecting my own human bias...
I would have preferred a thousand times that Space Jockeys were like monoliths. The watchers who sometimes help with a little nudge to the more primitive life forms, thus accelerating their evolution. Actually, I think Prometheus would have worked better with the Engineer as the next evolutionary leap for mandkind, with the Space Jockeys being responsible for this evolution.
You can have monsters and a ominous atmosphere in between anyway.
Posted by SiL
- Aug 18, 2020, 04:10:21 AMQuoteThe ability for creatures and beings of higher sentience (well, some of us) to perceive the universe and even recognize beauty in it, serves to justify its existence. So yes, there is something great about creation. The truth is, we simply didn't get to explore the motivations of the Engineers. The Engineers remain almost as mysterious now as they were when we first saw them on screen.I never said they wasn't anything great about it, but you said creation for its own sake is somehow profound.
Creation is an every day part of life, just as much as death and destruction is. Regardless of how heady one thinks the concepts are, the way Prometheus portrays creation is so low-brow it certainly doesn't deserve to get put on a pedestal. It has an interesting idea and violently refuses to do anything interesting or thought-provoking with it.
"They made us?"
"Why?"
"Let's ask."
"RRRAAAARGH WHO WOKE UP SLEEPY MAN GRRRR"
That's too high brow for Predator? Eeh.
(I dislike adding Engineers to the mix because it starts being too many elements in the soup, just so we're clear.)
Posted by Perfect-Organism
- Aug 18, 2020, 03:44:21 AMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Aug 18, 2020, 02:58:09 AMQuote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 12:27:53 AM
The stance is not misguided. One species just hunts without greater purpose. The other creates. The difference in class is not in what they look like, but in what they do.
Yet, getting down to brass tax, as I watch Prometheus, this Engineer ends up being, as SiL effectivelying described... "little more than a stumbling, albino Frankenstein's Monster, lurching and groaning as it chases down the heroine."
And I see less complexity in that, than the Elder in P2...QuoteAnyway, it's a totally fair point that some people want the two species to cross paths, but it's not for me.
That's 100% fair. But that's not what I was responding too, but rather your posting "Just not interested in merging the Engineers with the predators at all. One is high-idea science fiction and the other is low-brow." You were comparing the beings.
Artistic quality, tone, cinematography, etc. can all be measured and compared. But when your talking Engineers vs Predators specifically in a movie ironically similar to AvP in many ways, what we didn't get with the Engineers is high-idea science fiction. Not the way I see it. I'm unabashedly a fan of Prometheus, but The Monolith and the Starchild, the Engineer, is not. Not what we got on film. Not even close. You need tons of corrective and expansive EU content or a clever imagination to connect those far away dots to "high-idea science fiction." The way I see it, Prometheus is much closer to AvP than it is to 2001 A Space Odyssey.Quote from: PredBabe on Aug 17, 2020, 11:12:26 PM
Sounds like our leathery skinned friend needs to f*ck up the Engineer's "perfect composure"!
https://i.imgur.com/6DZEmeT.jpg
You make valid points Voodoo Magic! Yes you do. I have been making the 2001 comparison internally for a while, and I would agree that Prometheus comes up short.
Engineers cannot climb to the level of star-child because the Aliens series is about horror / sci-fi. It will never be 2001, but out of the recent spate of Sci-fi, I'd say that Prometheus and Arrival get the closest to that point where 2001 sits. Also worthy of note is that the engineers are human much as Star-Child employs the same symbology. We are getting into the realm of higher intelligence, through 2001 and I would say Prometheus skirts that territory, just before it subverts it through savage violence. The Predators on the other hand seem to deal with savage violence as a first priority, and only in glimpses do we get to see their "wisdom". It's literally the opposite to engineers. Then again, perhaps I'm just projecting my own human bias...
Quote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 03:34:08 AMQuote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 02:29:21 AMIf you can't answer the question then I'm guessing nothing.
LOLOLOL
Seriously? You don't think there's anything fancy about our universe which may have been created in any way you choose to subscribe to, but created nonetheless? Ain't life grand?
The film strongly implies they create because they can, not for some "greater purpose". We see one Engineer create anything in two films. The Predator series does a better job of showing hunting has a greater purpose to Predators than the prequels show creation being a cornerstone for Engineers.
So really it's about hunting and connecting with the living forces of the universe for a greater purpose vs creation for shits and giggles (and I guess terraforming is implied).
What's awesome about creation is that it allows for the experience of 3-D space and the material which occupies that space. Without anyone or thing to appreciate the majesty of our universe, it would be devoid of purpose. Nobody would even perceive that it is taking place. The ability for creatures and beings of higher sentience (well, some of us) to perceive the universe and even recognize beauty in it, serves to justify its existence. So yes, there is something great about creation. The truth is, we simply didn't get to explore the motivations of the Engineers. The Engineers remain almost as mysterious now as they were when we first saw them on screen.
Anyway, to each their own. I really appreciate Prometheus. It is mesmerizing in its beauty, almost to the point where I can overlook most of its shortcomings. I vastly prefer it to anything Predator related, and I am definitely not inclined to see the two mixed anymore. But I can appreciate why some fans would want to see that. I still remember my excitement at those firs Dark Horse Presents issues featuring the beginning to AVP back in the early 90's. Good times.
Posted by SiL
- Aug 18, 2020, 03:34:08 AMQuote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 02:29:21 AMIf you can't answer the question then I'm guessing nothing.
LOLOLOL
Seriously? You don't think there's anything fancy about our universe which may have been created in any way you choose to subscribe to, but created nonetheless? Ain't life grand?
The film strongly implies they create because they can, not for some "greater purpose". We see one Engineer create anything in two films. The Predator series does a better job of showing hunting has a greater purpose to Predators than the prequels show creation being a cornerstone for Engineers.
So really it's about hunting and connecting with the living forces of the universe for a greater purpose vs creation for shits and giggles (and I guess terraforming is implied).
Posted by Voodoo Magic
- Aug 18, 2020, 03:33:48 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 03:23:36 AMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Aug 18, 2020, 02:58:09 AM
The way I see it, Prometheus is much closer to AvP than it is to 2001 A Space Odyssey.
And yet, Scar is more like a character than the Engineer. Hell! neither of them speak! but Anderson knew how to make a character out of that Predator. Unlike grandpa Riddles, who was just being pretentious.
And you know what? I absolutely love that you brought the star child. Monoliths are the definitive "how you should run a creator in scifi".
Oh yes...!
"My God, it's full of stars!"
Posted by Immortan Jonesy
- Aug 18, 2020, 03:23:36 AMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Aug 18, 2020, 02:58:09 AM
The way I see it, Prometheus is much closer to AvP than it is to 2001 A Space Odyssey.
And yet, Scar is more like a character than the Engineer. Hell! neither of them speak! but Anderson knew how to make a character out of that Predator. Unlike grandpa Riddles, who was just being pretentious.
And you know what? I absolutely love that you brought the star child. Monoliths are the definitive "how you should run a creator in scifi".
Cheers!
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 18, 2020, 03:16:17 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 03:11:52 AMQuote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 02:29:21 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 12:42:51 AMQuote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 12:38:01 AM
Prometheus even ends with the Engineer as little more than a stumbling, albino Frankenstein's Monster, lurching and groaning as it chases down the heroine. There's nothing deep or profound there. In fact, whatever the intent, the execution of the Engineer has distinctly less character or nuance than the Predator, which is successfully shown -- rather than said to be -- an intelligent, thinking being with history and culture
I have to agree there. Pretty eyes aside
Oh come on, he just woke up!
Yeah maybe
But seriously, that Engineer was as deep as infected Fifield...
Makes me think, if they wanted to go pure brute force with the Final Engineer, it would have been pretty cool to see him partially infected by the pahtogen and slowly mutating/deforming/deconstructing as he pursues Shaw. Perhaps even "seeding" part of the land he walks on as he goes, bringing new primordial life to LV-223 as the pathogen and his DNA mix.
I agree. If you're going to make it uncivilized, at least make it scary.
Posted by Nightmare Asylum
- Aug 18, 2020, 03:16:17 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 03:11:52 AMQuote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 02:29:21 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 12:42:51 AMQuote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 12:38:01 AM
Prometheus even ends with the Engineer as little more than a stumbling, albino Frankenstein's Monster, lurching and groaning as it chases down the heroine. There's nothing deep or profound there. In fact, whatever the intent, the execution of the Engineer has distinctly less character or nuance than the Predator, which is successfully shown -- rather than said to be -- an intelligent, thinking being with history and culture
I have to agree there. Pretty eyes aside
Oh come on, he just woke up!
Yeah maybe
But seriously, that Engineer was as deep as infected Fifield...
Makes me think, if they wanted to go pure brute force with the Final Engineer, it would have been pretty cool to see him partially infected by the pahtogen and slowly mutating/deforming/deconstructing as he pursues Shaw. Perhaps even "seeding" part of the land he walks on as he goes, bringing new primordial life to LV-223 as the pathogen and his DNA mix.
Posted by Immortan Jonesy
- Aug 18, 2020, 03:11:52 AMQuote from: Perfect-Organism on Aug 18, 2020, 02:29:21 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 18, 2020, 12:42:51 AMQuote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2020, 12:38:01 AM
Prometheus even ends with the Engineer as little more than a stumbling, albino Frankenstein's Monster, lurching and groaning as it chases down the heroine. There's nothing deep or profound there. In fact, whatever the intent, the execution of the Engineer has distinctly less character or nuance than the Predator, which is successfully shown -- rather than said to be -- an intelligent, thinking being with history and culture
I have to agree there. Pretty eyes aside
Oh come on, he just woke up!
Yeah maybe
But seriously, that Engineer was as deep as infected Fifield...
