Poll
Question:
What did you think of Alien Covenant?
Option 1: Loved it. (5/5)
votes: 99
Option 2: Good, it was enjoyable. (4/5)
votes: 148
Option 3: It was okay. (3/5)
votes: 89
Option 4: Could have been better. (2/5)
votes: 60
Option 5: Didn't like it. (1/5)
votes: 32
Option 6: Hated it! (0/5)
votes: 30
This is the official fan reviews thread for Alien Covenant. It officially comes out tomorrow in some countries including France so here's the place to say what you thought about it after you've seen it. Think about what you liked, what you didn't like, how it compares to Prometheus and the rest of the films in the series. I've also included a little poll for you to rate it.
Said my thoughts on other threads, but 3.5 or 4/5 for me. I really liked it for the most part, it's just the final act that brings it down a bit otherwise it'd be a classic for me.
Needed improvements:
• A few extended character moments (i.e. Tennesse, Oram)
• **An extended third act**
• Take out the Xeno-vision shots
• Touch up on some CG, mainly wide shots of the Xenomorph need tweaking/improving in some scenes.
• Re-insert the Xeno-bouncing off the walls shot in the corridor.
3.5/5
Very strange movie
Part 1 : too long
Part 2 : scary in several ways
Part 3 : too fast
Finally, everything that touches the monster is less interesting.
Everything about David is fantastic.
It's a nightmarish continuation of Prometheus, incredible, unhealthy, frustrating.
It's an alien film terribly banal, sometimes superb (backburster), sometimes debilitated (Rosenthal, Shower scene)
The film is dark, really, and the sets are fantastic.
Will be hosting a live review after I've seen the film.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_aytW3XUAEizOD.jpg)
I prefer Prometheus over Covenant.
Quote from: John Doe on May 10, 2017, 12:57:50 AM
I prefer Prometheus over Covenant.
Could you please elaborate on that. Some comparisons and personal opinion... I m interested in comparative reviews and since you are the first to say that you like Prometheus more, it would be nice to see some arrguments behind that statement...
It would be nice to see where it fits in everyone's rankings of all the alien movies, even avp and avp:r if so inclined. Such as my example, minus A C since I will not see it until the 18th....
Alien=Aliens>>Prometheus>Alien3>>>>Alien:Resurrection>>>>>>>>>>>>AvP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>AvP:R
My rank
Alien - Aliens - Prometheus - Alien3 - Resurrection - Covenant
01) Alien
02) Aliens
03) Alien: Covenant
04) Prometheus
05) Alien 3
06) AVP
07) Alien Resurrection
08) AVP: Requiem
Quote from: Stolen on May 10, 2017, 05:21:25 AM
My rank
Alien - Aliens - Prometheus - Alien3 - Resurrection - Covenant
weaker than resurrection?.. .really!?. .ouch!
Here's HuDaFuk's review -
QuoteOverall, I liked this more than Prometheus, but it had definite faults.
It was undeniably a more commercial, less ambitious movie than Prometheus, but I thought that ultimately worked in its favour. There were a few hints of some of the higher concepts of the kind explored in the previous film, chiefly in the scenes involving David, but on the whole it was a more straightforward film. More action-packed, more intense. I'm also happy to say it fixed one of my biggest criticisms from Prometheus - whereas the crew in that were terribly cardboard and uncharismatic, I'm pleased to say the characters in this immediately came across as more interesting and likeable to watch.
However - and this was my main problem - it was one of those movies that suffers quite badly from a case of deterioration; it seemed to get less impressive as it went along, culminating in a final act that I thought was, disappointingly, pretty weak. The Neomorph birth sequence, seen in the previews, was excellent and probably the best part of the movie. But towards the end, more and more things started happening that really disappointed me.
Spoiler
For instance, they once again messed with the details and timescale of the Alien reproductive cycle. Crudup's character is infected and gives birth in about ten minutes, whereas later in the film someone is impregnated after a Facehugger is in contact with them for no longer than a few seconds. Seriously, they're never even knocked unconscious before the thing is cut off them, and yet they're still infected. Also, for some reason the Chestburster is now a fully-formed, miniature version of the Alien, with arms, legs and head, rather than the slug-like design from the previous films.
Another issue I had was the big final twist. To say it was obvious is a huge understatement; I saw it coming about 20 minutes before the end of the film, and being so obvious, it was hard to get even slightly thrilled by it. It was just so blatantly telegraphed from the moment it was set up.
It's a shame most of the things I disliked were towards the back end of the movie, because it was a let down after the great opening acts and kinda soured the whole experience with a disappointing conclusion. As I said, the final act aboard the Covenant in particular was quite weak - it felt way too short and didn't portray the Alien in particularly good light. Still, overall it was an entertaining movie, and a definite step up from Prometheus. I've actually seen it twice now, and I enjoyed it more the second time around.
Oh, and as I was asked - I'd probably rank it fourth, after the first three but ahead of Resurrection and Prometheus 🙂 Might be a better-made film than Alien 3, but I have a soft spot for that.
And here's mine - http://www.avpgalaxy.net/alien-movies/alien-covenant/review/
In terms of ranking, for me it goes
Joint 1st Place - Alien/s/3
4th Place - Alien: Covenant
5th Place - Prometheus
Joint 6th Place - AvP & Alien: Resurrection
8th Place - AvP: Requiem
I went for 6.5 out of 10 for my review. I was struggling to settle between 6 or 7. I wanna watch it a few more times to really make my mind up.
. .ok . .that sounds a bit more encouraging, thankyou Hicks!
overall dissapoint.
many thing on this movie didn't make any sense.
For those who watched the movie,are the alien cgi better than those from the trailers?
Like the cgi on the tracking clip.The alien feels weightless while moving.
Did they correct it?
Same question about the shot with the neomorph opening its mouth.Were they unfinished shots used in the trailers?
Do they explain whats with the alien's vision? (tracking clip). Just curious if there is any resemblance with the avp games.
Is there an intense ''long'' scene with facehuggers? like the 2 Burke released on aliens.Except the egg scene from the trailer i mean.
***please no spoilers!
Quote from: SPECIAL FORCES on May 10, 2017, 10:29:14 AM
Like the cgi on the tracking clip.The alien feels weightless while moving.
Did they correct it?
Same question about the shot with the neomorph opening its mouth.Were they unfinished shots used in the trailers?
I'll leave these for someone with better eyes.
QuoteDo they explain whats with the alien's vision? (tracking clip). Just curious if there is any resemblance with the avp games.
Is there an intense ''long'' scene with facehuggers? like the 2 Burke released on aliens.Except the egg scene from the trailer i mean.
No to both of those.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 10, 2017, 10:42:11 AM
Quote from: SPECIAL FORCES on May 10, 2017, 10:29:14 AM
Like the cgi on the tracking clip.The alien feels weightless while moving.
Did they correct it?
Same question about the shot with the neomorph opening its mouth.Were they unfinished shots used in the trailers?
I'll leave these for someone with better eyes.
QuoteDo they explain whats with the alien's vision? (tracking clip). Just curious if there is any resemblance with the avp games.
Is there an intense ''long'' scene with facehuggers? like the 2 Burke released on aliens.Except the egg scene from the trailer i mean.
No to both of those.
Well,at least you were satisfied with the creature effects right? No wtf moment.
Thanks boss,trying to get an answer since yesterday.
Quote from: SPECIAL FORCES on May 10, 2017, 10:51:16 AM
Well,at least you were satisfied with the creature effects right? No wtf moment.
I don't remember hating any of them but unless it's noticeably bad, I don't really get bothered.
Quote from: SPECIAL FORCES on May 10, 2017, 10:51:16 AM
Thanks boss,trying to get an answer since yesterday.
It's busy, stuff get's lost in the tide unfortunately.
Quote from: SPECIAL FORCES on May 10, 2017, 10:51:16 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 10, 2017, 10:42:11 AM
Quote from: SPECIAL FORCES on May 10, 2017, 10:29:14 AM
Like the cgi on the tracking clip.The alien feels weightless while moving.
Did they correct it?
Same question about the shot with the neomorph opening its mouth.Were they unfinished shots used in the trailers?
I'll leave these for someone with better eyes.
QuoteDo they explain whats with the alien's vision? (tracking clip). Just curious if there is any resemblance with the avp games.
Is there an intense ''long'' scene with facehuggers? like the 2 Burke released on aliens.Except the egg scene from the trailer i mean.
No to both of those.
Well,at least you were satisfied with the creature effects right? No wtf moment.
Thanks boss,trying to get an answer since yesterday.
The CGI is good and not distracting.
I read the audience reviews from imdb and at least the majority of those seem very positive. .it's sometimes more interesting to read reviews from more casual fans. .people who don't have so much invested in the franchise as we do. .
Quote from: SyntaX on May 10, 2017, 11:07:42 AM
Quote from: SPECIAL FORCES on May 10, 2017, 10:51:16 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 10, 2017, 10:42:11 AM
Quote from: SPECIAL FORCES on May 10, 2017, 10:29:14 AM
Like the cgi on the tracking clip.The alien feels weightless while moving.
Did they correct it?
Same question about the shot with the neomorph opening its mouth.Were they unfinished shots used in the trailers?
I'll leave these for someone with better eyes.
QuoteDo they explain whats with the alien's vision? (tracking clip). Just curious if there is any resemblance with the avp games.
Is there an intense ''long'' scene with facehuggers? like the 2 Burke released on aliens.Except the egg scene from the trailer i mean.
No to both of those.
Well,at least you were satisfied with the creature effects right? No wtf moment.
Thanks boss,trying to get an answer since yesterday.
The CGI is good and not distracting.
Thank you SyntaX...still i think it was wrong to show unfinished cgi on trailers.
Im not a cgi freak,my favourite movie is Carpender's The Thing...but i was a little worried.
Quote from: Enoch on May 10, 2017, 01:06:21 AM
Quote from: John Doe on May 10, 2017, 12:57:50 AM
I prefer Prometheus over Covenant.
Could you please elaborate on that. Some comparisons and personal opinion... I m interested in comparative reviews and since you are the first to say that you like Prometheus more, it would be nice to see some arrguments behind that statement...
Ok, i will try it, im spanish and it´s difficult for me to write in english what i feel. I made a video on my YT chanell explaning everything but in spanish:
Buy, yeah, i will try it:
I prefer Prometheus because i hate what Ridley did mixing Prometheus with Alien. It doesn´t works well and we don´t have Engineers. He erased them from this sequel of Prometheus.
The 3 act it´s rushed, he takes so much from Alien (closing doors), but rushed, and i hate the CGI Xeno (looks fake, looks more like an Alien 3 than the Giger design, it moves fast, so fast, like the third act of the movie. I hate the fast growth of the Xeno and the fast gestation of the Alien Burster or how fast a facehugger could infect you.
I prefer what they did with the Engineer on Prometheus, real man with make up.
Noomi Rapace it´s so much better than Katherine Watterston, she doesn´t have the charisma of Shaw/Rapace. I don´t like how Ridley erased Noomi from the movie. We only
Spoiler
see her on the prologue
. That´s bad !!!! :-[
I don´t like the Oram dialogues, some of the them are overplanation of his character (like Christopher Nolan did with Interestellar).
I don´t like the James Franco scene, the
Spoiler
flames looks fake
and i can´t believe how fast Daniels change on what she feels. It looks like a copy of Prometheus (ring/necklace).
I like David, but when he appears the rest of the cast suffers so much and i lost interest in them. There are some stupid things like Prometheus, but in Prometheus they created new concepts, they surprised us and in this movie Ridley it´s trying to give to Alien fans what they want in the third act.
Alien : Covenant it´s more a Prometheus 2 sequel than an Alien movie, and i like it. But for me it could be better to take out
Spoiler
David creating the Alien. I prefer if the Engineers created the monster
. I think it could be a better movie if Ridley only showed us Neomorphs and Engineers. And then, later, show how the Engineers created the Alien (maybe in the next movie).
Visuallly it´s amazing, i like what Wolski did with the cinematography and Jed Kurzel OST it´s good, but the used so much CGI for the monster. It´s strange, because in this video they shows a real puppet, but they finally didn´t use it (second 29):
Sad.
By the way, i saw the Arnold Blöklin reference on the David temple.
My rating:
Alien: 10
Aliens: 10
Prometheus: 7
Alien 3: 6´7
Alien : Covenant: 6´5
Alien Resurrection: 4
Great. Thanks.
What Bocklin reference?
The bocklin inspiration is great. The sets are really fantastic.
Spoiler
(https://www.google.fr/search?q=bocklin&client=ms-android-orange-fr&prmd=isvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpwovCtOXTAhUDNhoKHSa5DccQ_AUICSgB#imgrc=NpvPfugwBFgUjM:)
Quote from: Enoch on May 10, 2017, 01:07:35 PM
Great. Thanks.
What Bocklin reference?
(https://virginiaburges.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/halloween-isle-of-the-dead-by-arnold-brocklin.jpg)
You really can show something similar on the prologue, on the mountains. It´s a gate of David´s temple.
I have noticed a number of people showing their displeasure with the final act in regards to
Spoiler
how they portray the Xeno.
So is it a matter of them showing
Spoiler
too much of the Xeno; is it just not that much of a threat and easily outsmarted/defeated; and/or does it just go against your idea of how the Xeno should look/behave?
I think alien Isolation did it good and adult Xeno from Covenant it´s more like the CGI Aliens from AVP.
Quote from: John Doe on May 10, 2017, 02:01:16 PM
I think alien Isolation did it good and adult Xeno from Covenant it´s more like the CGI Aliens from AVP.
Well then, you have certainly grounded my expectations for this film with that AvP comparison. :'(
I completely disagree with that. It was noticeably CG to my eye but it wasn't to the level of AvP's. Definitely looked better.
Always the same with CGI, there is no such thing as perfect CGI but that doesn't stop everyone from expecting it.
The cgi in this film will be as good as it can be with today's tech and while I wish more practical was used here, I am happy to at least move away from man-in-suit stuff.
Well, I think the CGI in Prometheus looks better than what I've seen of Covenant so far...
But it still looks really good, so it doesn't bother me that much.
What does cgi stand for again. .Computer Generated. . ?. .dunno what the I stands for. .instance?. .perhaps?. .we used to just call everything FX back in the day. .even tho i am a keen 3D modeler snd have worked on some game models i myself sometimes find it difficult to distinguish the difference between practical and cg. .but i must admit that i am and always have been absolutely facinated and mesmerized by cg. .it seeming a little unreal almost makes it even better sometimes. .on the other hand practical is so f**king clever it also never fails to astonish me. .the hair growing fx in american werewolf in london was done by holes in a puppet with hair protruding. .they pulled the hair sricking out back into the puppet and filmed it and played it in reverse. .so it looked like the hair was growing rapidly fast. .how f**king clever. .it won awards for best makeup. .that werewolf transformation scene is still one of the most chilling scenes i have ever seen in any film till this day!
I'm still hoping for photorealistic CG Aliens that compare to the Prawns or Chappie.
Quote from: juxtapose on May 10, 2017, 02:35:32 PM
What does cgi stand for again. .Computer Generated. . ?. .dunno what the I stands for. .instance?. .perhaps?.
Computer Generated Imagery.
. .thanks hicks!
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 10, 2017, 02:14:51 PM
I completely disagree with that. It was noticeably CG to my eye but it wasn't to the level of AvP's. Definitely looked better.
Yep, maybe i taked my problems with the CGI to the extreme.
OK guys just got back from seeing it... I'll put spoiler tags in as needed.
My overall feeling is that it was a decent film, but had some flaws, and as an Alien fan a few things really pissed me off.
I felt that the start of the film, up to the landing on the planet was all solid stuff, the characters were all decent, and even though I didn't know some of the names no one came across as extra or unlikeable ala Prometheus.
The first obvious flaw for me was the going to the planet and not even a mention of a breathable atmosphere etc, or any acknowledgement of the forests everywhere etc - this may have been trimmed out I guess, I just had to kind of accept this was missing and say "hey it's sci fi" and let it go.
The neomorphs were pretty cool in their own way, again I thought the acting around them was very well done - some great reactions from the crew etc. One lady specifically does a great job of being scared out of her mind. The first one or two scenes the CGI was pretty bad though, after that it recovers somewhat.
In some ways my biggest problem was with David, he's got a God complex that's for sure... but I felt the "why" was missing a bit from it all.
There were some interesting scenes with him and Walter, but they didn't quite pay off for me, it was close, with the creation stuff, but didn't quite hit the mark. This movie does make you hate David though, he is a huge douche.
Oh and for the record (MAJOR spoiler)
Spoiler
f**k David inventing the Xeno, I mean really Ridley, f**k you for ruining the mythos
The final act of the movie is pretty predictable, it's still enjoyable though, it was pretty tense and I was overall happy about it.
On the Engineers (minor spoilers):
Spoiler
Basically written out... WTF why is no one from the crew saying "f**k me an alien civilisation, how amazing!" I thought it was a travesty that Scott has f**ked the Space Jockey with the big bald human engineers in a suit and then not follow through with them, I could forgive it if he has gone more into their mythos, but it's completely clear to me that engineers are now an abandoned concept
Alien life cycle is AvP fast.
Also
Spoiler
Alien vision ala A3, which imo was completely unneeded
On Shaw (big spoilers):
Spoiler
Again a complete waste, she's just been written out. The cool biomech prop on the front page is not in the film, there is a dead Shaw prop but she looks a lot more normal, apart from her chest is open (it's the big open chest we saw in old set pics)
Overall as I said to my GF going in I expected this to be a kind of reboot, but what Ridley has done is write off all threads of Prometheus, further screwed with the Alien mythos, and elevated David. It's kind of like he knew Prometheus was a bit crap, and decided to axe all the bits that didn't go down well, and make the story all about the popular supporting character.
What we have in the end is a good film on many levels, but on the Alien mythos level (which we all care about) it's all over the bloody place. Now don't get me wrong I still enjoyed it, but as an Alien fan more and more I'm seeing this as a spin off series which can be enjoyed for what it is and not a core part of the franchise.
The movie is left completely open for a sequel,
Spoiler
I actually loved the last scene with Daniels
but my advice to Ridley would be this - don't tie it in with Alien, LEAVE ALIEN ALONE. This Prometheus spawned series should be allowed to be it's own thing, and I think we as fans would be able to enjoy it a lot more like that.
To summarise - a mostly well made movie, good acting throughout, decent characters which are all believable, nothing too complex or jarring like Prometheus, shits on the Alien mythos, completely wastes story threads from Prometheus, focuses too much on David. Oh and the music was great - lovely remixes of the original Alien score in places which I loved.
I'd give it a 7/10 for enjoyability, could easily have been an 8 or a 9 with some minor changes and a couple of additional scene to smooth it out. I will be really interested for the deleted scenes on this one.
Quote from: Xenoscream on May 10, 2017, 04:49:08 PM
OK guys just got back from seeing it... I'll put spoiler tags in as needed.
My overall feeling is that it was a decent film, but had some flaws, and as an Alien fan a few things really pissed me off.
I felt that the start of the film, up to the landing on the planet was all solid stuff, the characters were all decent, and even though I didn't know some of the names no one came across as extra or unlikeable ala Prometheus.
The first obvious flaw for me was the going to the planet and not even a mention of a breathable atmosphere etc, or any acknowledgement of the forests everywhere etc - this may have been trimmed out I guess, I just had to kind of accept this was missing and say "hey it's sci fi" and let it go.
The neomorphs were pretty cool in their own way, again I thought the acting around them was very well done - some great reactions from the crew etc. One lady specifically does a great job of being scared out of her mind. The first one or two scenes the CGI was pretty bad though, after that it recovers somewhat.
In some ways my biggest problem was with David, he's got a God complex that's for sure... but I felt the "why" was missing a bit from it all.
There were some interesting scenes with him and Walter, but they didn't quite pay off for me, it was close, with the creation stuff, but didn't quite hit the mark. This movie does make you hate David though, he is a huge douche.
Oh and for the record (MAJOR spoiler) Spoiler
f**k David inventing the Xeno, I mean really Ridley, f**k you for ruining the mythos
The final act of the movie is pretty predictable, it's still enjoyable though, it was pretty tense and I was overall happy about it.
On the Engineers (minor spoilers):
Spoiler
Basically written out... WTF why is no one from the crew saying "f**k me an alien civilisation, how amazing!" I thought it was a travesty that Scott has f**ked the Space Jockey with the big bald human engineers in a suit and then not follow through with them, I could forgive it if he has gone more into their mythos, but it's completely clear to me that engineers are now an abandoned concept
Alien life cycle is AvP fast.
Also Spoiler
Alien vision ala A3, which imo was completely unneeded
On Shaw (big spoilers):
Spoiler
Again a complete waste, she's just been written out. The cool biomech prop on the front page is not in the film, there is a dead Shaw prop but she looks a lot more normal, apart from her chest is open (it's the big open chest we saw in old set pics)
Overall as I said to my GF going in I expected this to be a kind of reboot, but what Ridley has done is write off all threads of Prometheus, further screwed with the Alien mythos, and elevated David. It's kind of like he knew Prometheus was a bit crap, and decided to axe all the bits that didn't go down well, and make the story all about the popular supporting character.
What we have in the end is a good film on many levels, but on the Alien mythos level (which we all care about) it's all over the bloody place. Now don't get me wrong I still enjoyed it, but as an Alien fan more and more I'm seeing this as a spin off series which can be enjoyed for what it is and not a core part of the franchise.
The movie is left completely open for a sequel, Spoiler
I actually loved the last scene with Daniels
To summarise - a mostly well made movie, good acting throughout, decent characters which are all believable, nothing too complex or jarring like Prometheus, shits on the Alien mythos, completely wastes story threads from Prometheus, focuses too much on David. Oh and the music was great - lovely remixes of the original Alien score in places which I loved.
I'd give it a 7/10 for enjoyability, could easily have been an 8 or a 9 with some minor changes and a couple of additional scene to smooth it out. I will be really interested for the deleted scenes on this one.
Good read and thanks for your review.
You mention that you are giving your opinions as an alien fan. If you were to go into this just expecting a good SciFi horror/thriller movie and are not too up-to-date or aware of every detail of the Alien mythos, how would you say the film performs in that regard?
. .well i was a bad boy. .i think. . .
I know sci fied is trowned upon, but i also know i am not the only one who went and read their review from the chris guy that runs the show. .odly his take of the movie was very similar to hics and he bought up more or less the same qualms with it.. . .he did mention that the shower scene showed of the xeno and was perhaps one of it's most iconic moments in covenant . Also complained a bit about pacing towards the end. .but yeah it was worth a read. .still prefer and value the corporals iponion. .but just saying. .
Quote from: juxtapose on May 10, 2017, 07:21:36 PM
. .well i was a bad boy. .i think. . .
I know sci fied is trowned upon, but i also know i am not the only one who went and read their review from the chris guy that runs the show. .odly his take of the movie was very similar to hics and he bought up more or less the same qualms with it.. . .he did mention that the shower scene showed of the xeno and was perhaps one of it's most iconic moments in covenant . Also complained a bit about pacing towards the end. .but yeah it was worth a read. .still prefer and value the corporals iponion. .but just saying. .
You're allowed to read whatever you wish to. I think the Scified guy gave a pretty balanced review.
Just saw it. Since it's late, I'm going to be quick :
- The film, overall, is good in m opinion.
- The CGI are sometimes amazing ( spaceships, planet... ), but sometimes a little bit... well, "meh" ( especially on the aliens ).
- The score and the visuals are outstanding.
- The first hour was perfect, but when David appears, the movie starts to go fast. VERY FAST. The movie doesn't breathe at all and is edited like a transformers movie ( a flaw Prometheus had ). Some characters dies so quickly in some shot that you can"t even see who dies.
- The neomorph are awesome. The design of the xeno were... strange. And they were reaaaalllly dumb, what made the Alien scary is that it was intelligent. Here, it's the same as in AvP : they jump everywhere, kill, and are more "primal". I know it can be an artistic choice, but it could have been a pleasant contrast from the neomorph's savagery.
And then, the Alien life cycle. I'm sure Ridley showed the crew a drawing of the alien life cycle, said " Here's how we're gonna do it", and pooped on it. Seriously, there's only TWO 30 seconds scene between the moment Oram get facehugged and the moment the alien burst from him. And then, two scenes later ( which is in the movie 15 minutes later, if we goes by what's Daniels saying ), we have a full grown xeno. Come on. Same with the second facehugger scene, this one was a premature one ;D
David is the redeeming factor. Don't get me wrong, the movie is flawed but it's enjoyable ( better than Resurrection and the two AvP, even Prometheus ), but it's mainly because of David ( and Walter ). He's scary. And the ending, when he listen to Wagner... That was scary if you think about it ( imagine being Daniels in this scene ).
Overall, it's a solid 3,5/5. Maybe Awakening will be "the one" we're waiting since forever.
Quote from: Stolen on May 10, 2017, 05:21:25 AM
My rank
Alien - Aliens - Prometheus - Alien3 - Resurrection - Covenant
Damn. Sorry to see that Stolen. I know you were quite excited about the film. You've been posting on this board since long before they even shot the first frame of film.
The film doesn't seem to have gone down that well in France overall, has it?
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on May 10, 2017, 09:31:49 PM
Quote from: Stolen on May 10, 2017, 05:21:25 AM
My rank
Alien - Aliens - Prometheus - Alien3 - Resurrection - Covenant
Damn. Sorry to see that Stolen. I know you were quite excited about the film. You've been posting on this board since long before they even shot the first frame of film.
The film doesn't seem to have gone down that well in France overall, has it?
His review seemed very positive though?
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on May 10, 2017, 09:31:49 PM
Quote from: Stolen on May 10, 2017, 05:21:25 AM
My rank
Alien - Aliens - Prometheus - Alien3 - Resurrection - Covenant
Damn. Sorry to see that Stolen. I know you were quite excited about the film. You've been posting on this board since long before they even shot the first frame of film.
Worse than
A:R? Cannot be. Stolen, you should be whisky like I did :)
Stay clear of the Scotch Ingwar, you've done enough damage on here already! :P
;D
I love every Alien movie. (Even Resurrection, the atmosphere is great. but yes somehow it's the weakest film of the franchise).
Covenant is definitely a better movie, lots of good ideas, but there are also lots of bad decisions. In fact I don't know if I adore it or I hate it. Very weird movie, in good way.
I think the film is not going to please the public, it's really too bizarre, uncomfortable. And even you, you will be disappointed by many things i think.
It's definitely a sequel to Prometheus, but absolutely not the one we expected. It's pure horror. The planet is a real hell, as I had never seen it before. it's in dark all the time, it's raining, it's bleeding, the atmosphere is macabre, David is scary as the devil.
And my expectation was really naive, Ridley Scott unleashed the underworld!
And I still think it's very average as an Alien movie. A first part too long and not interesting. And the last one is way too fast. Creatures are useless.
But many will hate the second part, while I loved it. The most shocking and strange.
I would add that Fassbender is phenomenal. It's not every day that we have a great antagonist in the cinema. The other characters are less memorable ...
And even if the film doesn't bring many answers to Prometheus, there are many things in sub-texts, and the visuals give a lot of indications about engineers and other mysteries.
In terms of filmmaking, it's different from Prometheus, no contemplation here, it's brutal, furious, and sumptuous. The cinematrography is surprising, only dark tones (except the intro). The sets are absolutely great. The rhythm is too flat.
Between 7 and 8 for me, is a good note.
But I tell you, many of you will hate it.
No matter whether you like it or not, don't forget it's only a movie.
We had a great time on AVP Galaxy in recent months, and I hope it will be the same for the next movies!
the 2nd act is the best part of Covenant, when David is introduced and they are going through the Engineers stuff
Quote from: cucuchu on May 10, 2017, 05:38:51 PM
You mention that you are giving your opinions as an alien fan. If you were to go into this just expecting a good SciFi horror/thriller movie and are not too up-to-date or aware of every detail of the Alien mythos, how would you say the film performs in that regard?
Hard to say... I could see many aspects being confusing. If someone had seen Prometheus but wasn't really a big fan of Alien I think thier score could vary anywhere between a 6 to an 8.
My GF is in that department, she hated Prometheus, she gave this a 7, but also commented that the more she thought about it the more didn't make sense. It's a mixed bag really, some great bits, I think my favourite was the last conversation with Daniels - just a great moment, but then some things just don't add up.
Go in with low expectations and you'll most likely really enjoy it.
Quote from: Xenoscream on May 11, 2017, 01:43:24 AM
Quote from: cucuchu on May 10, 2017, 05:38:51 PM
You mention that you are giving your opinions as an alien fan. If you were to go into this just expecting a good SciFi horror/thriller movie and are not too up-to-date or aware of every detail of the Alien mythos, how would you say the film performs in that regard?
Hard to say... I could see many aspects being confusing. If someone had seen Prometheus but wasn't really a big fan of Alien I think thier score could vary anywhere between a 6 to an 8.
My GF is in that department, she hated Prometheus, she gave this a 7, but also commented that the more she thought about it the more didn't make sense. It's a mixed bag really, some great bits, I think my favourite was the last conversation with Daniels - just a great moment, but then some things just don't add up.
Go in with low expectations and you'll most likely really enjoy it.
Man, that's not very reassuring.
Just like with
Prometheus, the critics are loving it, but fans seem to be mixed so far. :-\
Go in with your expectations so low, they're right next to dinosaur bones
Saw this movie tonight via an advance screening.
My spoiler free review.
Just watch the trailer. You've now seen pretty much everything Alien: Covenant has to offer.
In short, I thought it was bad.
Honestly this film barely passes as an Alien film. Take the Alien (as in the Xenomorph we know and love) out of the movie and barely anything would really change about the story. Both the title and creature are tacked on to get your butts in the seat and to have something nice to show in the trailer. I'd say 90% of the alien scenes in the movie are what you see in the trailer.
It's Prometheus 2, and should have steered clear of anything close to ALIEN, because the things they did add just shrink the universe further instead of expanding it. Adds confusion to where there was once mystery and turns the ALIEN into a easily defeated threat. This is not Alien. This is, once again, a vehicle for Ridley Scott to ask big questions with nothing of substance to back it up.
I'm not even really angry or disappointed about it as my expectations were so low going in, but it's totally killed any fleeting excitement I had left for future movies. Fox and Ridley really have no clue as to why people love the ALIEN movies, and no clue as to where to steer it. It's a shame.
You said it brother :(
Nice review, newbeing. How would you rate it? 2/5, 6/10, big fat zero, or what? :)
Quote from: Predaker on May 11, 2017, 03:48:39 AM
Nice review, newbeing. How would you rate it? 2/5, 6/10, big fat zero, or what? :)
I'd say a 5/10. I have to say I did like the beginning, which felt very ALIEN with the musical score, character banter, but once they land on the planet all of the things that I really disliked about Prometheus started to creep into this movie.
Spoiler
Aliens are derived from combining space wasps with black goo mutations/10
Good first half. Bad second half. Aliens felt like they were fan service and really shouldn't been kept out. Dumber characters than Prometheus, or at least, one person dumber than them combined.
Saw it this morning. Loved it.
Here's my full review. (http://www.hideousplastic.com/?page_id=3002) Minor spoilers present, nothing anyone here wouldn't be aware of, I think.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hideousplastic.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F05%2Fridley-and-alien.jpg&hash=11c64566d371723f1485e09d24480f7401f01042)
-Windebieste.
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2017, 04:51:33 AM
Dumber characters than Prometheus, or at least, one person dumber than them combined.
Wow. Are you serious.? Can't believe it after everything that happened with Prom.
#shakes head in desbelief#
Quote from: oduodu on May 11, 2017, 06:07:15 AM
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2017, 04:51:33 AM
Dumber characters than Prometheus, or at least, one person dumber than them combined.
Wow. Are you serious.? Can't believe it after everything that happened with Prom.
#shakes head in desbelief#
Some will say it's hyperbole, but when you weigh the situations, pretty much.
Quote from: windebieste on May 11, 2017, 06:02:48 AM
Saw it this morning. Loved it.
Here's my full review. (http://www.hideousplastic.com/?page_id=3002) Minor spoilers present, nothing anyone here wouldn't be aware of, I think.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hideousplastic.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F05%2Fridley-and-alien.jpg&hash=11c64566d371723f1485e09d24480f7401f01042)
-Windebieste.
Nicely written. I'm gonna see it tonight. You reassured me a bit.
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2017, 06:27:46 AM
Quote from: oduodu on May 11, 2017, 06:07:15 AM
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2017, 04:51:33 AM
Dumber characters than Prometheus, or at least, one person dumber than them combined.
Wow. Are you serious.? Can't believe it after everything that happened with Prom.
#shakes head in desbelief#
Some will say it's hyperbole, but when you weigh the situations, pretty much.
Spoiler
Oram,right ?
He was the only character I had any issue with. Farris might have been pushing it.
He was the only character I felt any doubt about - lacking in strength for the role that was thrust upon him. Remember, though. It was circumstance that pushed responsibility on him. I don't really think he wanted it. Probably a character who ascended to level of his incompetence by default rather than plan.
There are still worse characters in 'PROMETHEUS'.
-Windebieste.
In general I really liked him. I liked all of them, actually. It's just when
Spoiler
Oram let David lead him downstairs
that I was disappointed.
Quote from: windebieste on May 11, 2017, 06:02:48 AM
Saw it this morning. Loved it.
Here's my full review. (http://www.hideousplastic.com/?page_id=3002) Minor spoilers present, nothing anyone here wouldn't be aware of, I think.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hideousplastic.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F05%2Fridley-and-alien.jpg&hash=11c64566d371723f1485e09d24480f7401f01042)
-Windebieste.
Reassured me a bit, thanks! I'm seeing it tonight.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 11, 2017, 07:50:18 AM
In general I really liked him. I liked all of them, actually. It's just when Spoiler
Oram let David lead him downstairs
Spoiler
and then david trow rock/stone to wake him up.
Quote from: windebieste on May 11, 2017, 06:02:48 AM
Saw it this morning. Loved it.
Here's my full review. (http://www.hideousplastic.com/?page_id=3002) Minor spoilers present, nothing anyone here wouldn't be aware of, I think.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hideousplastic.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F05%2Fridley-and-alien.jpg&hash=11c64566d371723f1485e09d24480f7401f01042)
-Windebieste.
Great write up. The good reviews still have me excited. I can't believe I have to wait another few weeks to see this.
Quote from: windebieste on May 11, 2017, 07:49:20 AM
There are still worse characters in 'PROMETHEUS'.
Spoiler
I don't think anything compares to Oram's stupidity in trusting David.
David "I've spent the last time tinkering with this extremely volatile thing to make new and terrifying creatures! I'm giving you no reassurance whatsoever that I'm trying to pacify them, just that I'm 'improving' them by genetically splicing them with a parasitic wasp! Here are some samples, please stick your face in it!"
Oram: "Okay!"
There's no reason for Oram to doubt David or be suspicious of his duplicitous nature.
Up until that point, David has only demonstrated a preparedness to help. Oram isn't aware of what David's motivations are at this stage. He's trusting of the android for good reason - the android that accompanied him on the Covenant is a similar model (updated to varying degrees) wouldn't be capable of causing harm. He'd trust Walter with just about anything, as far as Oram is concerned, David isn't harmful either - until it's too late.
-Windebieste.
Quote from: windebieste on May 11, 2017, 08:30:41 AM
Oram isn't aware of what David's motivations are at this stage.
Spoiler
David was trying to hold a conversation with one of the things that killed Oram's crew members.
Mostly spoiler free review:
Spoiler
I think the best one-word review of Covenant would be "breathless". It moves at a fairly ruthless pace, pulling the audience from one tragedy to the next in fast succession. For the first half of the film, this is fine — it allows us to experience the kind of disorientation that our characters and, and hurls us into the action just as much as them. For the second half, however, it seems to transition from brisk pacing to simply rushing.
There's a lot of nice things to say about Covenant. The atmosphere in the first act places us pretty firmly in the world of Alien. Space is equal parts romantic and ominous; pretty to look at while hiding deadly traps. Our crew are regular people who feel real. Nobody seems ham-fisted into acting one way or another for the sake of plot or convenience; everyone's coming from somewhere and everyone reacts like actual people would.
Tension amongst the crew of the eponymous Covenant start fast. Tragedy strikes the ship, killing several members in their cryo-tubes. One happens to be the captain, placing the second in command, Oram (Billy Crudup), in full command before he's completely ready. He wants to run the situation as by the book as possible; pack away the dead, run diagnostics, fix the ship, return to sleep. Everyone else wants to hold a funeral. They're both realistic responses.
After detecting a mysterious transmission, the crew decides to investigate the source — a seemingly inhabitable planet. Daniels (Waterstone) thinks this is risky, but everyone else agrees that not dying in their sleep sounds like a wonderful idea. A landing party sets down on the planet, and tragedy invariably follows.
The initial tragedies — the infection of some of the crew by alien spores, the birth of horrifying "neomorph" creatures, the destruction of their landing vessel — are tense, nail-biting stuff. There's a genuine sense of distress from all involved. The crew is made of couples; everyone that dies is someone's husband or wife. The characters respond to these losses with due emotional weight.
It feeds into a sense of dread that is only partially allayed when David (Fassbender) saves the crew — partially, because he then immediately walks them to a city of corpses. Engineer corpses. It's an interesting turn; outside, where it was idyllic paradise, was unsafe and deadly. Inside, surrounded by corpses, it's ostensibly safe. You could cut the unease with a knife.
And then, to put it frankly, the film shits itself.
Where whisking the audience through the first half put us equal with the characters, the speed with which the second half unfolds leaves us unable to process much information.
Scott said he wanted to scare us, but there's no time for fear here. One character almost immediately walks off on their own without an escort and meets a predictable fate. Wherein the first half each death felt like a tragedy, the second half has characters all but literally tripping over corpses without much concern.
Fassbender's David in Prometheus is creepy. He's Not Quite Right. He composes himself as an aloof butler who hates his lot in life and is absolutely plotting to murder you. There's clearly something sinister and amoral simmering beneath, but it's always there; beneath. Here, however, he's just a bad guy. Ranting, pontificating, and about as subtle as a wood nail to the throat. He's a Bond villain describing his grand scheme for humanity. Beyond the blue jumpsuit he feels utterly different to the David we knew.
And then, at last, there's the Alien.
Whether certain revelations will satisfy or enrage the audience is something everyone will need to work out for themselves, but there's perhaps something we can all agree on: you can almost feel the contempt with which Scott included them back into the story.
There's no reason for the Alien to be here other than the film's title. They achieve nothing. They are utterly unremarkable. They act and move almost identically to the Neomorphs, and indeed beyond looking different and having acid blood there's no appreciable difference. They could have kept the Neomorphs throughout the entire film and not a damned thing would change.
Which is, more than anything, perhaps the most disappointing thing about the film. The last act is the Cliffs Notes of the original Alien, sans any sense of fear, dread, foreboding, or even mild interest. We've seen this before, and the very climax we have seen three times before.
Where the first half of the film was new and interesting, the second half feels like Ridley Scott responding to criticism over the lack of Aliens in a mocking tone. It happens because he thinks that's what people wanted, not because it feels right or even resolves the story in a particularly satisfying way.
Is the film terrible? No. This franchise has certainly generated worse. But like its predecessor it's an undeniably flawed film; how much these flaws bother you will be up to you to decide, and may largely be proportional to how much of a fan you are of these movies.
6/10
Oram is a dumbass, yes. He's like that one, idiot manager everyone has at work who you wonder how he got that job in the first place.
It's just sad that such people do actually exist in positions of responsibility.
-Windebieste.
Quote from: windebieste on May 11, 2017, 09:05:30 AM
Oram is a dumbass, yes. He's like that one, idiot manager everyone has at work who you wonder how he got that job in the first place.
It's just sad that such people do actually exist in positions of responsibility.
-Windebieste.
Exactly!
Quote from: gantarat on May 11, 2017, 07:55:55 AMSpoiler
and then david trow rock/stone to wake him up.
I actually really liked that. It was a neat character moment.
Me too, actually. It was just one of those funny humanized David things.
Quote from: Xenoscream on May 10, 2017, 04:49:08 PMMy overall feeling is that it was a decent film, but had some flaws, and as an Alien fan a few things really pissed me off.
This is pretty much spot-on.
I think you are giving Oram a bad rap, I thought he was a good character, not particularly likeable or capable, but he knows that and struggles with it. He admits when he's wrong and actually tries to do the right thing, yeah he had a bit of a dumb end but nothing, nowhere near as bad a Milburn in prometheus.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 11, 2017, 07:40:17 AMHe was the only character I had any issue with. Farris might have been pushing it.
Faris' actions seemed justified to me in that she was freaking the f*ck out. People are stupid when they panic.
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2017, 08:57:09 AMMostly spoiler free review:
That was great. Really summed up my thoughts far better than I could.
Quote from: Xenoscream on May 11, 2017, 09:24:32 AM
I think you are giving Oram a bad rap, I thought he was a good character, not particularly likeable or capable, but he knows that and struggles with it. He admits when he's wrong and actually tries to do the right thing, yeah he had a bit of a dumb end but nothing, nowhere near as bad a Milburn in prometheus.
As a character I liked him. I really liked Crudup's take on him. Just that particular decision didn't sit well with me.
Loved your review windebieste. .so glad it was positive. .i always enjoy your coments cause they reflect pretty much how i feel. . So i can breath more easily now and am even more hyped than ever. .it.s like i am counting the hours till the 19th. .very well written and articulate review!
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 11, 2017, 09:25:44 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 11, 2017, 07:40:17 AMHe was the only character I had any issue with. Farris might have been pushing it.
Faris' actions seemed justified to me in that she was freaking the f*ck out. People are stupid when they panic.
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2017, 08:57:09 AMMostly spoiler free review:
That was great. Really summed up my thoughts far better than I could.
Same here .
Quote from: Xenoscream on May 11, 2017, 09:24:32 AM
I think you are giving Oram a bad rap, I thought he was a good character, not particularly likeable or capable, but he knows that and struggles with it. He admits when he's wrong and actually tries to do the right thing, yeah he had a bit of a dumb end but nothing, nowhere near as bad a Milburn in prometheus.
Yes very interesting character, very human.
Spoiler
The only thing I find really disappointing about the characters is how they decide to go on the planet, too easy.
It lacks moment of glory for certain characters, Lope for example. But the characters are endearing, Daniels, Tennesse, Karine, Faris, Oram ... Walter and David are the most interesting obviously.
Very good movie, not what I expected at all. It was great to see a walking Alien again- however briefly, in the cargo hold.
Spoiler
Seeing E. Shaw's gutted corpse was a shock. I wonder what her final moments were?
Spoiler
The communication between David and the creature had some interesting dialogue about it being important to gain the creature's respect.
Mostly spoiler free review:
Spoiler
I think the best one-word review of Covenant would be "breathless". It moves at a fairly ruthless pace, pulling the audience from one tragedy to the next in fast succession. For the first half of the film, this is fine — it allows us to experience the kind of disorientation that our characters and, and hurls us into the action just as much as them. For the second half, however, it seems to transition from brisk pacing to simply rushing.
There's a lot of nice things to say about Covenant. The atmosphere in the first act places us pretty firmly in the world of Alien. Space is equal parts romantic and ominous; pretty to look at while hiding deadly traps. Our crew are regular people who feel real. Nobody seems ham-fisted into acting one way or another for the sake of plot or convenience; everyone's coming from somewhere and everyone reacts like actual people would.
Tension amongst the crew of the eponymous Covenant start fast. Tragedy strikes the ship, killing several members in their cryo-tubes. One happens to be the captain, placing the second in command, Oram (Billy Crudup), in full command before he's completely ready. He wants to run the situation as by the book as possible; pack away the dead, run diagnostics, fix the ship, return to sleep. Everyone else wants to hold a funeral. They're both realistic responses.
After detecting a mysterious transmission, the crew decides to investigate the source — a seemingly inhabitable planet. Daniels (Waterstone) thinks this is risky, but everyone else agrees that not dying in their sleep sounds like a wonderful idea. A landing party sets down on the planet, and tragedy invariably follows.
The initial tragedies — the infection of some of the crew by alien spores, the birth of horrifying "neomorph" creatures, the destruction of their landing vessel — are tense, nail-biting stuff. There's a genuine sense of distress from all involved. The crew is made of couples; everyone that dies is someone's husband or wife. The characters respond to these losses with due emotional weight.
It feeds into a sense of dread that is only partially allayed when David (Fassbender) saves the crew — partially, because he then immediately walks them to a city of corpses. Engineer corpses. It's an interesting turn; outside, where it was idyllic paradise, was unsafe and deadly. Inside, surrounded by corpses, it's ostensibly safe. You could cut the unease with a knife.
And then, to put it frankly, the film shits itself.
Where whisking the audience through the first half put us equal with the characters, the speed with which the second half unfolds leaves us unable to process much information.
Scott said he wanted to scare us, but there's no time for fear here. One character almost immediately walks off on their own without an escort and meets a predictable fate. Wherein the first half each death felt like a tragedy, the second half has characters all but literally tripping over corpses without much concern.
Fassbender's David in Prometheus is creepy. He's Not Quite Right. He composes himself as an aloof butler who hates his lot in life and is absolutely plotting to murder you. There's clearly something sinister and amoral simmering beneath, but it's always there; beneath. Here, however, he's just a bad guy. Ranting, pontificating, and about as subtle as a wood nail to the throat. He's a Bond villain describing his grand scheme for humanity. Beyond the blue jumpsuit he feels utterly different to the David we knew.
And then, at last, there's the Alien.
Whether certain revelations will satisfy or enrage the audience is something everyone will need to work out for themselves, but there's perhaps something we can all agree on: you can almost feel the contempt with which Scott included them back into the story.
There's no reason for the Alien to be here other than the film's title. They achieve nothing. They are utterly unremarkable. They act and move almost identically to the Neomorphs, and indeed beyond looking different and having acid blood there's no appreciable difference. They could have kept the Neomorphs throughout the entire film and not a damned thing would change.
Which is, more than anything, perhaps the most disappointing thing about the film. The last act is the Cliffs Notes of the original Alien, sans any sense of fear, dread, foreboding, or even mild interest. We've seen this before, and the very climax we have seen three times before.
Where the first half of the film was new and interesting, the second half feels like Ridley Scott responding to criticism over the lack of Aliens in a mocking tone. It happens because he thinks that's what people wanted, not because it feels right or even resolves the story in a particularly satisfying way.
Is the film terrible? No. This franchise has certainly generated worse. But like its predecessor it's an undeniably flawed film; how much these flaws bother you will be up to you to decide, and may largely be proportional to how much of a fan you are of these movies.
6/10
[/quote]
^Thank you for the review and including this information. It's what I was suspecting after reading some of the other reviews, so I'm so glad I got to read your review. I think you were very fair and genuine. I'll definitely not go see it in the theater but I'll purchase it on a used blu ray when it's released. Time for me to find another franchise to get interested in. As a long-time Alien fan, I'm grateful for Scott and further development of the franchise and films but I'm also a little disappointed that this is the direction he's choosing. Yes, I absolutely understand it's not about me or how I think things should be or that Scott should change everything so that I like what he's doing, etc., etc., etc. It's Scott's creation and it's the direction that he's chosen because he thinks it's more interesting, but I can't help but feel that with the direction Scott is heading with the franchise, it's kind of lost something, so I'm not interested in it anymore. Time for me to catch up on Syfy's Faceoff and Magicians anyway. SiL, thanks again for the excellent review. Now time for me to focus on other sci-fi franchises. Fare the well o mysterious SpaceJockey creature. We hardly got to know thee.
My one word review of
Covenant would be the same as Prometheus...
frustrating.
Longer, there's a lot to like and I had very few problems with the movie until the last quarter. (Maybe fifth?) The ending is such a let down, and it also brings with it new disappointments for earlier in the film when you realize that no, you will
not be getting better answers/excuses for stuff that happened before. The ending is pure shlock, and devalues everything that came before it. That's not to say there weren't poor bits earlier, there certainly are, but they all seem to come to a head in the last sequences.
I'm amazed to say this, but I think I preferred
Prometheus. That film, for all it's faults, at least felt like it had something to say. This one felt sort of like deleted material left over from Prometheus, mixed with what they thought people wanted. Ridley seems to have not learned anything from
Prometheus, making many of the same old mistakes as that one, but adding a few new ones too.
Spoiler
I was mentally praising the film regarding the David/Walter switcheroo, making sure we didn't see his lower chin until after the crisis was over, I really thought they did a great job with that...and then it turns out that no, it's a giant middle finger fake-out, his chin wound is just magically gone. Feh.
...And David's flashback looked kind of weird, with his really dark eyebrows. ;)
6/10
Quote from: Uncanny Antman on May 11, 2017, 12:42:42 PM
Spoiler
I was mentally praising the film regarding the David/Walter switcheroo, making sure we didn't see his lower chin until after the crisis was over, I really thought they did a great job with that...and then it turns out that no, it's a giant middle finger fake-out, his chin wound is just magically gone. Feh.
Spoiler
Aside from the obvious cutaway, it was that David wasn't healing that I thought the tell was. More about his facial scarring than his chin scarring.
Man that chestburster scene. Every time I think back to it I also think of this:
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstream1.gifsoup.com%2Fview7%2F2690771%2Fspace-balls-alien-dance-o.gif&hash=37f62e5772eafe6bf0e76063beb81198555d784d)
Spoiler
As for the David/Walter switcharoo. I saw it coming from a million miles away. As soon as David cuts his hair you know they're setting it up. It made me feel like Walter was a pointless character, just made to facilitate a really obvious twist. Which is too bad since I thought the character play between Walter and David was kind of interesting (if not also sometimes awkward and silly).
Spoiler
Aside from the obvious cutaway, it was that David wasn't healing that I thought the tell was. More about his facial scarring than his chin scarring.
[/quote]
Spoiler
I don't mean to say that I was fooled of course, it was crystal clear from the haircut onwards that we'd get a switch at some point, or at least the tease of a switch. What I mean is that his other wounds are treated, visibly still there...but the chin wound is magically completely gone. Why not keep the wound and shoot around it until after the reveal?
Continuity gaff, I'd assume.
Just like with Prometheus, do any of you think you'll enjoy it more with repeat viewings? I remember being frustrated too after watching that film, but overtime I've begun to enjoy it. I don't dismiss its flaws, but the movie seems more enjoyable. Maybe Covenant will be the same?
I see it next Thursday so I'm very anxious to see where the film works and doesn't.
HuDa enjoyed it more his second time around, I think. I'm definitely looking forward to giving it another go tomorrow.
I liked Prometheus less the more I saw it. I actually liked that a lot more than this one the first time around.
Frankly I think the second half will only get worse with repeat viewings.
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 11, 2017, 01:25:19 PM
Just like with Prometheus, do any of you think you'll enjoy it more with repeat viewings? I remember being frustrated too after watching that film, but overtime I've begun to enjoy it. I don't dismiss its flaws, but the movie seems more enjoyable. Maybe Covenant will be the same?
Maybe? Sometimes, the more you see a movie the easier it becomes to enjoy the ups and ignore the downs. Although the film still has its best sequence
before the finale, which is a big problem.
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 11, 2017, 01:25:19 PMJust like with Prometheus, do any of you think you'll enjoy it more with repeat viewings?
As Hicks says, I liked it more on my second watch. I still disliked what I disliked first time around, but on the whole I got more enjoyment out of it knowing what was coming.
Quote from: Uncanny Antman on May 11, 2017, 01:33:09 PMAlthough the film still has its best sequence before the finale, which is a big problem.
A long time before. I still think the Neomorph birth sequence was the film's high point.
First half of the movie was just fantastic. Utterly engaging - to me as enthralling as any of the movies in the series. I really went in with a lot of trepidation after reading some of the content on this forum.
Spoiler
The only part that really got jarring for me was Oram's child. The gesticulation between David and the birthed I found tacky. The design pissed me off - not because it wasn't your typical snake-like burster, but because it showed no signs of juvenality (apart from the transparency touch). To me it looked like the proportions of an adult xeno just shrunk down. And this was just grating, made worse by that silly marionette dance. I guess the point I'm making is that for whatever reason this moment just jarred me out of the movie, yet there was so much to love about the movie- it was just hard to fully get back into it after that moment (also Oram not feeling any pointed discomfort before that first spray of blood from his chest?). The rest of playing with the speed of the life cycle I could take, just that one collection of choices for the burster got to me.
As for Oram I really liked his character. I didn't really see him as an idiot. He made choices which were applicable to the context. None of the crew wanted to go back into hyper sleep, which was fair enough because we see what the blast did while they were sleeping. They would again be vulnerable for a number of years. They found a planet within the Goldilocks zones that showed all the signs of habitability within weeks distance, through Shaws transmission that came with coordinates. And apparent transmission from a human. He wanted to go there and assess suitability. Would it be ideal to be a hard arse leader, force the crew back into hypersleep and go the safest route? Yes probably. Can you say that easily without hestitation? I don't think so.
I just didn't see Oram as an incompetent nobjockey, I thought he was doing his best under the circumstance. Where we have to suspend our disbelief is his following of David. This totally flies in the face of how Oram has conducted himself previously. What is the kicker for me is that he literally calls David out for what he is with a gun pointed at him 'I have seen the devil before'. I mean he literally calls David out right there showing he has recognised David is one manipulative, sadistic f***er. That is why it is a big ask to believe he would be led by the nose so mere moments after.
Ok so I've probably dwelled on a couple of qualms here, but overall I really enjoyed the movie, and am going to enjoy repeated viewings. There is so much to say about this movie, but I'll leave it be. (Other than to add score was great with really fitting bits of nostalgia, David vs Walter interactions and fight really enjoyable , ending tragic and leaves a little bit of a sour taste but the good in the movie makes up for it)
Oh yeah, I just remembered that I was also seriously bummed by:
1. Super short incubation time.
2. Way too many shots of the Alien. I hated the POV shots, and I hated the shots of it just strolling around. Way to destroy the power of its image.
Spoiler
I thought the shot of it calmly walking into the terraforming bay was actually one of my favourites, and then promptly wondered why the hell it needed to be CGI.
Am I crazy or
Spoiler
was the scene from the trailer with the Alien jumping from wall to wall was just not in the movie at all? That was like the coolest shot in the trailer!
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2017, 01:31:03 PM
I liked Prometheus less the more I saw it. I actually liked that a lot more than this one the first time around.
Frankly I think the second half will only get worse with repeat viewings.
Same and I really tried to like and defend Prometheus after first seeing it, but repeat viewings really didn't make me wince any less at the parts that just didn't work.
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2017, 02:02:11 PM
Spoiler
I thought the shot of it calmly walking into the terraforming bay was actually one of my favourites, and then promptly wondered why the hell it needed to be CGI.
I can see that. Maybe I would have liked it, but the cumulative effect of all the Alien shots wore me down. Amazing...I got sick of seeing the Alien. :o
Quote from: newbeing on May 11, 2017, 02:05:43 PM
Am I crazy or
Spoiler
was the scene from the trailer with the Alien jumping from wall to wall was just not in the movie at all? That was like the coolest shot in the trailer.
You're not crazy. Wasn't in it :)
Quote from: newbeing on May 11, 2017, 02:05:43 PMAm I crazy or
Spoiler
was the scene from the trailer with the Alien jumping from wall to wall was just not in the movie at all? That was like the coolest shot in the trailer!
You're not crazy.
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2017, 02:02:11 PM
Spoiler
I thought the shot of it calmly walking into the terraforming bay was actually one of my favourites, and then promptly wondered why the hell it needed to be CGI.
I really dug that shot too. I think I was a little :o at that.
In regards to the effects, I'm really curious as to what the effect guys are going to say. We've seen so much evidence of practicality. Seen the Alien suit on sets. Why all the CG touch-ups. To me, anyway, it looked like everything (aside from the one shot of the Alien head) was pretty much CG.
I think every shot of the Big Chap was CGI. The bursting wasn't, impressively, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the baby Alien was at least partially a rod puppet.
I wonder if Boss knew they'd be getting painted over or if they got ADI'd.
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2017, 02:24:31 PMThe bursting wasn't, impressively, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the baby Alien was at least partially a rod puppet.
It was. I saw it at the Alien Day event in London :)
i have not seen it yet but in regards to the baby xeno. .i saw the props of it and thought it looked amazing. .the head also seemed way longer than that of the adult. .so is that it's apearance in the movie.. . ?. .the original snake like version of the cheatburster never did much for me to be honest. .one of my favorite parts in alien 3 ..i think in the assembly cut version , the one with the ox. . the birth of the xeno. .i so much prefered that to the cinematic version. .. .i cant imagine ever getting tired of seeing the alien tho. .In aliens you got to see plenty of the xeno . .nobody complained about that?. .epsecially the queen
I think they had an idea that some stuff would be changed or that their effects would be enhanced. I doubt they knew it was all going to be covered up almost completely.
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2017, 02:24:31 PM
I think every shot of the Big Chap was CGI. The bursting wasn't, impressively, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the baby Alien was at least partially a rod puppet.
I wonder if Boss knew they'd be getting painted over or if they got ADI'd.
I just saw this on Tristan Jone's FB. He's discussing the film with someone who worked effects on it -
QuoteThey covered so much of our work with terrible cg and digital blood. The script was preeeetty terrible. Acting was eh.
I really wanted to love it and was so excited to see our work on screen and I feel just a bit let down.
I abhor digital blood and they added it to every single death and it just kills me.
They Thinged it. :'(
That's so, so sad. I hope they won't f*ck with the practical effects in the next film. :'(
Yeah that's probably going to be something that bothers me greatly when I finally see the film. Such a slap in the face to odd studio, their practical effects looked so good in the bts stuff i've seen.
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2017, 02:24:31 PM
I think every shot of the Big Chap was CGI. The bursting wasn't, impressively, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the baby Alien was at least partially a rod puppet.
I wonder if Boss knew they'd be getting painted over or if they got ADI'd.
Do you mean FULL CGI or a practical alien with digital overlay? Because some of the shots I have seen of it in promo's and such, it looks as though its practical but with a lot of CGI added on top of it. I.E. The shower scene and the shot with all the water coming down on it.
Overall I really enjoyed it. 8/10
Biggest positive for me was Walter and David, and David's personality now; he's quite something and he's completely sold the direction here on out for me.
Spoiler
Lovecraftian Old Gods et al would have been cool but incredibly safe for me (not to mention opening up further infinite regression), I actually find where this is going far more interesting thematically, but that's me. I am very intrigued for the next film, I can tell you that much.
Shaw's fate? LOVED THAT! ;D ;D
Spoiler
I quite literally gasped at that, actually, I'm glad I read no leaks and didn't watch any tv spots (apart from the crew logs and first two prologues). He really harvested her good, damn.
The neomorphs were quite beautiful, definitely a worthy addition to the canon.
The tone was consistent and I could feel my stomach turning through out. Gorgeously shot, the production values were top notch, as usual. Some truly striking images throughout.
As for some certain deviations in
Spoiler
the xeno's lifecycle; this ain't the Giger form descended from the derelict on 426, repeat, I suspect that form will be the evolved, further perfected life form that David will not be able to control, ergo, the biomechanical big chap requires longer gestation periods, obviously since there's more going on as far as its biology is concerned. Even the eggs in this film are David's design, but it will get out of his control, no doubt. They're edging into the Giger stuff, after all.
I think it did about as well as it could have to deal with everything left over from Prometheus and still satisfy as well. I'll definitely need to see it again though. But yeah, I enjoyed it quite a bit and my gripes are pretty minor all things considered, mainly CGI and pacing. But I've come to terms with accepting that the first two films - and what made them masterpieces - will
never happen again.
Ridley's a madman, and I love him all the more for it. Bring on the next one.
Hi all,
Long time lurker, first time poster. Just came back from watching Covenant and feel compelled to write a quick review.
Quick preface:In my book Alien is a masterpiece and Aliens is one of my top 5 most enjoyable movies. Alien 3 has some nostalgic resonance with me but it doesn't compete with the first two. I was more hyped for Prometheus than any other movie in my life so far. That first leaked camera recorded trailer had me in tears of joy. Obviously it ended up having huge issues with the pacing, editing, and acting (imo) but by far the biggest disappointment personally was the implication that the Space Jockey was human-like. I don't mind the Engineers in themselves but I still hold out hope that the Space Jockey race are God to the Engineers and other like them (such as in Covenant) and that a segment of Engineers (as seen in Prometheus) stole the fire of creation and made Humans. After seeing this movie I still believe this may happen.
So a few tidbits of thought that are stuck in my mind after seeing the film:* The effects and shots are incredible for the most part. Don't really need to talk much about what worked as the vast majority of it was amazing.
* The parts that failed for me were a few shots of the creatures which were video game worthy not film. That said, most shots of the alien were better than expected and that I had seen before in promos. Also, I wish the alien vision later in the film was removed.
* Pacing was great and is
including the final act. No problems for me and this was my main concern going in after reading the early reviews. Felt balanced.
* Lead-up to the planet was enjoyable and reminded me of Alien. Gave me a chance to get a feeling for the characters before the action. It felt real unlike Prometheus' corny and overly scripted interactions.
* Loved the look of the planet itself. Somehow pristine but 'off' at the same time.
* Acting was superb all the way around. I genuinely liked or appropriately disliked all the characters, especially Walter, David, Oram, and Tennessee. Daniels was also very good and
not a Ripley clone. Everyone really pulled their weight which is so refreshing after Prometheus in which I strongly disliked every character including David (who is much much better here). Not saying any of it was Oscar nomination worthy (apart from maybe David) but it was very effective.
* Soundtrack was superb.
The following points contain storyline spoilers:
Spoiler
* Backbursting scene was brilliant and I got a huge adrenaline spike from it. Just wow. Real weight to it.
* That level is almost immediately raised another notch with the Neomorph attach in the field, which was the best scene for me. It was just so vicious and conveyed the creature's power and unnatural aggression. I could feel the panic and confusion. Some guy gets his jaw whipped off like nothing.. People getting mauled and torn apart... Seeing Walter try to defend Daniels and having his arm chewed off... No time to think... This scene had me shivering in bliss. The alien gfx was particularly good here, probably because it was so rapidly cut.
* Short breather in the Temple to gather breath then Ridley starts slowly turning the screw again.
* Hate to be morbid but the gore... In addition to the obvious burster and mauling scenes... Female carcass in the water being eaten... Autopsied body... Walter-David-flute... Disturbing.
* Again, loved Fassbender's acting. Razer sharp and unhinged.
* Shower scene music was fine. Heard some people complain that it was corny. It would have been if it was soundtrack rather on their radio. It served it's purpose which was to drown out the distant alarms.
That's a far as I'll go with specifics. Seriously don't ruin it for yourself if you haven't seen it. I'm not saying there are any revelationary twists or anything, as by this point of watching you will probably already know what is going to happen, but I'm glad I only knew basic script outline up until the backburster scene.
In summary, I just loved the whole feel to this movie. The decrepit dampness, the foreboding, the panic, the torment...
Score:Divided my rating into two; technical and personal. Reason being that a movie can be appreciated but not 'liked' like.
Technical execution: 8.5/10
Personal resonance: 9.5/10
Overall: 9/10
So on the Alien spectrum:
Alien (10/10)>>
Covenant=Aliens>>>>>>>>Alien3>>>>>>Prometheus>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Everything else Alien/AVP.
Yes, that's right. It is equal to Aliens in my mind. If the creature effects felt more 'practical' then it would surpass Aliens. Maybe I've just seen Aliens too many times haha. So I am very happy. I came in expecting something on Prometheus' level and got a whole lot more. It was just a great night at the cinema. Of course, I have some serious concerns about the direction Ridley is taking the mythology but I still see a way forward that respects the all sides. Time will tell.
awesome review. .thank you necronomicon II!
Quote from: Necronomicon II on May 11, 2017, 03:34:39 PM
Overall I really enjoyed it. 8/10
Biggest positive for me was Walter and David, and David's personality now; he's quite something and he's completely sold the direction here on out for me. Spoiler
Lovecraftian Old Gods et al would have been cool but incredibly safe for me (not to mention opening up further infinite regression), I actually find where this is going far more interesting thematically, but that's me. I am very intrigued for the next film, I can tell you that much.
Shaw's fate? LOVED THAT! ;D ;D
Spoiler
I quite literally gasped at that, actually, I'm glad I read no leaks and didn't watch any tv spots (apart from the crew logs and first two prologues). He really harvested her good, damn.
The neomorphs were quite beautiful, definitely a worthy addition to the canon.
The tone was consistent and I could feel my stomach turning through out. Gorgeously shot, the production values were top notch, as usual. Some truly striking images throughout.
As for some certain deviations in Spoiler
the xeno's lifecycle; this ain't the Giger form descended from the derelict on 426, repeat, I suspect that form will be the evolved, further perfected life form that David will not be able to control, ergo, the biomechanical big chap requires longer gestation periods, obviously since there's more going on as far as its biology is concerned. Even the eggs in this film are David's design, but it will get out of his control, no doubt. They're edging into the Giger stuff, after all.
I think it did about as well as it could have to deal with everything left over from Prometheus and still satisfy as well. I'll definitely need to see it again though. But yeah, I enjoyed it quite a bit and my gripes are pretty minor all things considered, mainly CGI and pacing. But I've come to terms with accepting that the first two films - and what made them masterpieces - will never happen again.
Ridley's a madman, and I love him all the more for it. Bring on the next one.
Great review, I hope I come out feeling the same as you! I agree with you on the
Spoiler
aliens not being fully evolved to where they are on LV426. I personally believe the title being Awakening has something to do with something within the species being awakened. Perhaps the ancient xeno being awakened. I don't know, but certainly these are not the true Xeno's. I know others will dispute this but the way I interpreted his interview with IGN is exactly from what he said... that wants to see the creature evolve and not be controlled.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on May 11, 2017, 03:34:39 PM
Shaw's fate? LOVED THAT! ;D ;D
Spoiler
I quite literally gasped at that, actually, I'm glad I read no leaks and didn't watch any tv spots (apart from the crew logs and first two prologues). He really harvested her good, damn.
Spoiler
Maybe the most shocking thing of the movie, really.
I am very sad but it was a very big moment..
I wanted to cry when I heard the flute play the theme of Prometheus. fascinating
Hmm, to me Shaw's fate seems terrible and cheap - But I haven't watched it, so yeah.
For me it's the most unhealthy thing I've seen in the saga.
I think Covenant is a better Prometheus movie than an Alien movie.
It remains mysterious on many things but it is clearly a sequel, not the one we thought, much more terrifying!
Covenant is torn between art (david's story, visual, prometheus) and commercial (alien), it's crazy. Even more radical than Prometheus for me.
Even if you don't like, there is so much wealth, things to understand, thematic, it's a fascinating film.
. .i loved prometheus for the most part. .it had some flaws i will admit. .but what i did like about it had little to do with noomi's performance or the character of shaw. .i neither liked or disliked her. .so her fate is a little sad. .but nothing that will keep me awake at night. .and it serves to elaborate on just how diabolicly evil and psychotic david seems to have become. .
. .oh and speaking of davids nesfarious deeds. .how did that bombing scene turn out?
The bombing sequence is very very short. The scene lasts 40 seconds ...
Great but too short.
Quote from: Stolen on May 11, 2017, 04:52:01 PM
The bombing sequence is very very short. The scene lasts 40 seconds ...
Great but too short.
. .i figured it might be very short. .i am curious. .the ending of crossing over seems to be the beginning of that scene. .is it exactly like that end bit or. .is it seen from a different camera angle and did that famous or rather infamous still from empire magazine make it into the movie. .the one showing the engineers close up. .
It's exactly the same as in the prologue, adds 30 seconds and it's over !
So is the close up shot of the engineers in it?
And engineers are not beautiful unfortunately. I love them, but terrible make-up
But we don't have time to analyze shot, really too fast!
. .thankyou for your answers stolen. .apreciate that you took the time. .
Quote from: Stolen on May 11, 2017, 04:30:33 PMI wanted to cry when I heard the flute play the theme of Prometheus. fascinating
I thought that moment was cringeworthy.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 11, 2017, 05:25:20 PM
Quote from: Stolen on May 11, 2017, 04:30:33 PMI wanted to cry when I heard the flute play the theme of Prometheus. fascinating
I thought that moment was cringeworthy.
What made it so cringeworthy? Because it broke the fourth wall? :D
Exactly. It was daft and makes no sense.
It's like that bit in the Bond film where the Indian snake charmer gets his attention by playing the James Bond theme on his pungi. It just comes across as really stupid.
You get to see close ups of Engineers, even the female ones.
Also it's such a shame that they painted over the practical stuff, I saw the film during the December test screening and I fondly remember there being practical Xeno and Neomorph suit stuff. A lot of it was digital and not fully rendered, but there was a good bit of practical stuff. :'(
Quote from: Whos_Nick on May 11, 2017, 05:35:40 PM
You get to see close ups of Engineers, even the female ones.
Also it's such a shame that they painted over the practical stuff, I saw the film during the December test screening and I fondly remember there being practical Xeno and Neomorph suit stuff. A lot of it was digital and not fully rendered, but there was a good bit of practical stuff. :'(
When you say painted over, do you mean they completely edited out the practical alien and replaced it entirely with CGI, or do you mean they kept the practical alien but put digital overlay on top of it?
Surprised no one has talked about the shower scene yet. Am I the only one that despised the music choice during that scene?
It looks like a similar process to the Deacon in Prometheus. That was a puppet and got painted over digitally in post.
Quote from: Whos_Nick on May 11, 2017, 05:35:40 PM
Also it's such a shame that they painted over the practical stuff, I saw the film during the December test screening and I fondly remember there being practical Xeno and Neomorph suit stuff. A lot of it was digital and not fully rendered, but there was a good bit of practical stuff. :'(
I will be interested to know what has changed between the test screening and the film? Can you tell me the differences please?
Few changes I remember off the top of my head:
1) Opening is a little different, originally you didn't see Franco's corpse and them cleaning up the colonist pods.
2) Slightly longer scene where Daniels mourns Franco.
3) Shaw prologue is in the film, it begins when David talks to Walter with his flashback (before bombing)
4)
Spoiler
I don't remember seeing Shaw's corpse in the original cut, but I could be wrong.
5) David/Walter switch is much less telegraphed and more subtle
6) Ending is completely different, top to bottom.
That's what I remember being the most different, apart from that there might have been alternate angles etc.
What is different in the ending?
Spoiler
The ending as it stands has Daniels finding out about the David switch but being stuck in her cryo pod, David "Sleep tight," etc. He goes down and reveals himself as David to Muthur and plays Wagner while putting the facehugger embryos and then the whole "This is Walter signing off." That's the theatrical ending. The original ending Daniels didn't find out about the switch, she went to sleep. David does not reveal himself, pretends to be Walter and opens the colonist bay. He then lumps up three Xeno embryos (at least what I remember). There's no Wagner playing. He then closes the embryo tray and does a hop skip then we cut to black. No Walter signing off, just ends there.
The December ending was superior imo and more ambiguous, but it might not have tested well, thus they spelled it all out.
Quote from: Whos_Nick on May 11, 2017, 06:15:26 PM
It looks like a similar process to the Deacon in Prometheus. That was a puppet and got painted over digitally in post.
Maybe I am in the minority then because I felt the deacon looked just fine in regards to fitting with the environment around it. The digital effects did not scream fake to me. So if that is the standard by which they used for Alien Covenant, I am perfectly fine with that.
Well personally I found the effects for the Xeno not as good as the Deacon in some spots lol
Quote from: Whos_Nick on May 11, 2017, 06:32:47 PM
Spoiler
The ending as it stands has Daniels finding out about the David switch but being stuck in her cryo pod, David "Sleep tight," etc. He goes down and reveals himself as David to Muthur and plays Wagner while putting the facehugger embryos and then the whole "This is Walter signing off." That's the theatrical ending. The original ending Daniels didn't find out about the switch, she went to sleep. David does not reveal himself, pretends to be Walter and opens the colonist bay. He then lumps up three Xeno embryos (at least what I remember). There's no Wagner playing. He then closes the embryo tray and does a hop skip then we cut to black. No Walter signing off, just ends there.
The December ending was superior imo and more ambiguous, but it might not have tested well, thus they spelled it all out.
Yeah, the original ending sounds much better.
I hope they release the alternate/deleted scenes.
@whos_nick thank you, very interesting
Quote from: Whos_Nick on May 11, 2017, 06:32:47 PM
Spoiler
The ending as it stands has Daniels finding out about the David switch but being stuck in her cryo pod, David "Sleep tight," etc. He goes down and reveals himself as David to Muthur and plays Wagner while putting the facehugger embryos and then the whole "This is Walter signing off." That's the theatrical ending. The original ending Daniels didn't find out about the switch, she went to sleep. David does not reveal himself, pretends to be Walter and opens the colonist bay. He then lumps up three Xeno embryos (at least what I remember). There's no Wagner playing. He then closes the embryo tray and does a hop skip then we cut to black. No Walter signing off, just ends there.
The December ending was superior imo and more ambiguous, but it might not have tested well, thus they spelled it all out.
Spoiler
I kind of find Daniels going into Cryo while knowing she is doomed a bit more horrifying. Like if you were going under before a surgery and while your body goes numb, the surgeon tells you that he is going to kill you and use your body as some tool for his demented research. You know you are going to die but there is nothing you can do about it. But I have not seen the scene play out so it might not be that horrifying as it seems like it is in my mind.
Quote from: Whos_Nick on May 11, 2017, 06:21:52 PM
Few changes I remember off the top of my head:
1) Opening is a little different, originally you didn't see Franco's corpse and them cleaning up the colonist pods.
2) Slightly longer scene where Daniels mourns Franco.
3) Shaw prologue is in the film, it begins when David talks to Walter with his flashback (before bombing)
4) Spoiler
I don't remember seeing Shaw's corpse in the original cut, but I could be wrong.
5) David/Walter switch is much less telegraphed and more subtle
6) Ending is completely different, top to bottom.
Spoiler
The ending as it stands has Daniels finding out about the David switch but being stuck in her cryo pod, David "Sleep tight," etc. He goes down and reveals himself as David to Muthur and plays Wagner while putting the facehugger embryos and then the whole "This is Walter signing off." That's the theatrical ending. The original ending Daniels didn't find out about the switch, she went to sleep. David does not reveal himself, pretends to be Walter and opens the colonist bay. He then lumps up three Xeno embryos (at least what I remember). There's no Wagner playing. He then closes the embryo tray and does a hop skip then we cut to black. No Walter signing off, just ends there.
The December ending was superior imo and more ambiguous, but it might not have tested well, thus they spelled it all out.
Interesting. While I prefer Daniels finding out, I do think the ending twist is
much too obvious.
Spoiler
It was interesting to see Ridley Scott finally address his "can artificial people have sex" question - sort of.
Spoiler
The fight between the two synthetics raises the question as to why Ash wasn't as fast or as skilled a fighter in his confrontation with Parker. If Ash had exhibited any of these deadly skills seen during the Walter/David fight, Parker,Ripley and Lambert wouldn't have stood a chance.
Just got back from the IMAX cinema. I'm a bit tired now but i'll write down some of the thought this film inflicted on me, i'm sure there's a lot that i forgot to add. I know i've had a negative attitude towards the film since the first images and clips started to appear but i still didn't believe it would be that far removed from the real Alien films and even Prometheus. So in a way i'm not very upset because it quite easy for me to dismiss it as another non/canon separate fiction a la tha AVP movies. It felt more like a bizarre nightmare that Shaw would see the first night the juggernaut left the LV-223, this is the only possible way i could believe it would take place in the same universe. This is a fairy tale, a fantasy, a genre that i'm also very fond of, but the original movies at least tried to be as realistic as possible (as much as sci-fi space creature feature could be). As i've said before, Alien feels like a documentary next to this.
As a an Alien film i probably hate it, too soon to say. But imaging it being as a non Alien film it's still deeply flawed yet the Fassbenders perfomance makes it interesting in places that certainly is a welcome diversion from the usual Marvel, F&F and other blockbusters.
Here's my ratings for different categories (mostly viewed from a biased fans perspective):
1. Screenplay and story - 3/10
If you thought that the Prometheus characters behaviour was a bit suspect, then multiply it with 2 and you get this. And it's just not Oram, it would take too much time to list all of the problems.
I think the script is also responsible for serious pacing issues, lack of plausibility and other problems, like not being scary at all.
And last but not least there's the controversial revealing of Alien Origins and engineers fate + Shaw and the changes to the aliens lifecycle. I was open to see if Ridley could sell me these ideas, but you already know the answer. On other hand, when David appeared, the b-movie esque atmosphere was oddly captivating, he did some strange unconvetional things, which i found amusing to witness. That said the creationism etc is right on the nose, all the sublety was flown out of the airlock. It fails both as an Prometheus sequel and Alien prequel.
2. Sound - 7/10 Functional, but nothing stood out as something that would emphasize atmosphere (think the sounds in Nostromo before the crew wakes up). The neomorph sound like clickers from The Last of US.
3. Visuals - 6/10 This is perhaps one of the most generic looking films Ridley has ever made, which was really suprising. Don't get me wrong, it looked good, but nothing stood out as being very memorable or awe inspiring. It doesn't have it's own identity. I liked the practical sets of the spaceship, but the lightning and the camerawork was a bit weak tbh. The creature cgi was inconsistent, sometimes great and sometimes not very good but always there. I just rewatched Chappie and the droid in that looked more believable than the creatures in A:C. So in that regard, i don't think the cgi here is the best the technology could currently offer, it also wasn't terrible. Holding back on the cgi and using practical fx as much as possible would have helped immensly. Neomorphs looked a bit more real then the protomorph. Overall Prometheus is visually much more memorable and expensive looking, although at least A:C didn't have Guy Pearce with that ridiculous makeup.
4. Actors - 7/10 I think the poor characters of the film were not the fault of the actors, they did what they could with the material. Many seem to agree that Fassy is excellent as David. Though i would have certainly changed a few of the actors, for example i didn't like the pair of Jussie Smollet and Callie Hernadez the same way i didn't like Holloway.
5. Music - 4/10 the only music i remember that was there besides the reworked classic Alien music + the main theme of Prometheus, was the sappy piano daytime tv show music during the sadder moments and
Spoiler
wtf was with the music when the xenomorph bursted, was it supposed to be humorous?
I would have loved something with the same atmosphere of Sicario and Under the Skin, this just doesn't cut it. Edit: the pulsing music (inspired from Alien again) when the shit really hit the fan was pretty good and fitting.
Overall - as Alien fan this gets a 4/10 from me, as it's own thing id rate it with 6.
You see, it requires certain amount of finesse to make a proper A L I E N film, in that regards the Alien:Covenant failed miserably.
That said, I think Ridley could still pull it off if he has a strong script, The Martian was good. But i also sense that he is not that interested with the creature anymore, or hasn't been for some time. The main themes of this film suggest that he would have rather liked to direct the Blade Runner sequel.
And Hollywood, please stop with the prequel bs! It just doesn't work.
It did not feel like a meaningful sequel to Prometheus and seemed to disregard most of what was interesting about that film.
The only good thing about it was the level of gore, and the practical effects used at times. The CG is below-par on many occasions though, and became distracting at times especially when they used it to create backgrounds or the aliens themselves. The bare bones of a reasonable film are there, but it needs another 30-45 minutes or so added in there to add more depth and originality. 2 hours flew by with mindless set pieces.
Very disappointing. Prometheus a better film overall.
3/10
Quote from: bacchus on May 11, 2017, 10:32:16 PM
The only performance that really stood out was Carmen Ejogo, but she didn't get much time - she would have been a far better protagonist than what we got.
She definitely was one of the more
real characters, i also thought the actress of Faris did a fine job, even if her character was behaving oddly, but that's understandable under tension of this magnitude. I think all the plausibility of the story died with these two.
Mcbride was a bit beige like the rest of the cast, sans Fass.
Just back from a UK screening and, against expectations, I really bloody enjoyed it. Sure, it's definitely a popcorn flick but it's a blast. It's still a shame that we didn't get the intended follow up to Prometheus but I'd definitely give this a second viewing. 6.5/10 for me.
Just got back and really enjoyed it! Whilst the fan in me didn't enjoy some parts it really is a great movie. Going again tomorrow and Saturday with different friends. So much to talk about and digest and definitely deserves multiple viewings.
The only things this film got right (IMO): the beautiful scenery/sets, the level of gore, the backburster scene, Fassbender's performances, some of the minor characters like Carmen Ejogo's.
The things this film got wrong (IMO): Most of the CG, the lack of tension, the lack of any real story, the recycling of scenes/tropes from previous Alien films.
:-\
Just back from the early UK preview.
Liked it. Didn't love it. That seems to be the general consensus.
A lot of problems I'm not thrilled about. Some fantastic positives. Definitely needs a second viewing.
Quote from: Citadel on May 11, 2017, 10:52:05 PM
Just back from the early UK preview.
Liked it. Didn't love it. That seems to be the general consensus.
A lot of problems I'm not thrilled about. Some fantastic positives. Definitely needs a second viewing.
I'm less enthusiastic about it than you, but there were breif moments that were decent enough (backburster scene, and the Weyland/David scene at the start).
I agree it needs a second viewing.
What I'm slightly amused at...
Spoiler
The scene at the start involving Weyland and David with the piano - I remember watching it at the time and thinking "when I post my thoughts on this film I will mention how out of place and odd that scene was".
But having watched the whole thing, it was one of the few good scenes in the film!
Quote from: bacchus on May 11, 2017, 10:53:54 PM
Quote from: Citadel on May 11, 2017, 10:52:05 PM
Just back from the early UK preview.
Liked it. Didn't love it. That seems to be the general consensus.
A lot of problems I'm not thrilled about. Some fantastic positives. Definitely needs a second viewing.
I'm less enthusiastic about it than you, but there were breif moments that were decent enough (backburster scene, and the Weyland/David scene at the start).
I agree it needs a second viewing.
What I'm slightly amused at...
Spoiler
The scene at the start involving Weyland and David with the piano - I remember watching it at the time and thinking "when I post my thoughts on this film I will mention how out of place and odd that scene was".
But having watched the whole thing, it was one of the few good scenes in the film!
I've started a thread regarding key things I'd change, I thought the prologue was fine however not as intriguing as Prometheus. It made sense, absolutely. It foreshadowed. But it didn't seem right. Like a Prometheus add-on.
The film was okay but I think it did seem a little rushed even though it was 2 hours long.
Not enough time spent getting to know the characters, yet the Last Supper was good and would have helped a bit I think, they could have cut the bits repairing the sail if they wanted a shorter running time. Also it's not mentioned that they were all couples, yet we see that in The Last Supper. We know some are married, but it's not clear enough, which would have boosted the emotion.
Danny McBride was pretty good as Tennessee, Katherine Waterston was okay as Daniels (she's no Ripley) but Michael Fassbender is again brilliant as David. Funny, creepy, and sinister.
One criticism I have seen recurring is that the characters in the film make daft choices. I thought this wild be harsh but when you see it you do think a few of them were pretty stupid.
I felt a bit sorry for Oram, as the Covenant crew were not very respectful to him.
The FX of the protomorphs looked like cheapo CGI to me. Very disappointed in that.
I actually think Prometheus was a better film than Covenant, which is a shame as I had high hopes for this movie, but it again illustrates that Ridley Scott is a great visualist but in many of his films the script and plot need a bit of work and indeed emotion.
Imagine a James Cameron or Steven Speilberg version of this story? It would have been gripping. I just felt at the climax Daniels was never really in too much danger.
Hopefully it will grow on me after repeated viewings.
Rating: 3/5
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
No spoilers.. Just got back from watching (uk). Have to be honest here and say I feel a lot worse about this, than after I'd first come out from watching Prometheus. Started out very promising at the beginning and I thought it really felt like the Alien universe again... Then from the point they land, it slowly just unravels into an unholy mess of ideas. The David god complex aspect is layed on so thickly that it completely changes the tone of the film to almost mythical "The Mummy"-esque proportions before crunching gears back to realism again. The xeno aspects felt rushed and almost tacked on as an afterthought with AVP levels of gestation and growth... and that chestburster?! The "twist" was telegraphed a mile off and rendered the final act pointless and nonsensical. I had really tempered my expectations for this one and although I'm a huge fan of the first 3 films and with the best will in the world, I am bitterly disappointed with this. Even more so than I was with Prometheus. Maybe a second viewing after a while might help, but my first reaction has it almost way down there with resurrection for me.
Just got back from the advanced screening of Alien: Covenant. While not without it's flaws, which every film has anyway, I really enjoyed this movie for the most part and will definitely see it again. Scott's directing is expertly done as you would expect, and he certainly gets the best out of the actors when it matters. Very few sequences from the trailers exists as they were in the film, some don't even exist at all, but I'm happy to say the trailers certainly didn't spoil the movie this time round as they did Prometheus.
I thought the acting was fine even though I wasn't familiar with many of these actors. Apart from Michael Fassbender, who really owned the show as both Walter and David, Danny McBride was the stand out performer here. I really liked his character and found him to be the most believable throughout. Kathrine Waterstone was ok I thought, especially in the early part of the movie when we're getting to know everyone and dealing with a crisis at the start. But when the action hots up, well, all I can really say was all I saw was Ripley if I'm honest. Maybe that was the intention and fair enough if so, but I just felt Prometheus' leading lady (Noomi Rapace) was a far more developed and individual character, whereas as Waterstone just feels a little too familiar. As for the rest, like I said, I wasn't familiar with the actors and need to see them again but, to name a few, Billy Crudup, Jossie Smollett and Callie Hernendez stood out as very believable.
As for the effects, the CGI was great for the most part but sometimes very noticeable, something which I didn't see in Prometheus which was far more convincing, it didn't ruin the movie for me, but clearly some things towards the end of the movie looked a little rushed, even the man in the suit was noticeable at times. The sets were spectacular and definitely on a par with anything in the Alien series so far, as was the beautiful design work that went into this movie. The only gripe I would mention is that all too often the sets looked too bright, like even in the cinema details were easy to pick out, and for a movie like this were what lurked in the shadows was all important, the only thing that maybe prevented you from seeing it was the fast and often shaky camera work, but when you did see it, you really did see it full on, which wasn't quite right for me.
Finally, I loved the story and the script for the most part. There were a couple of cringe worthy moments, and perhaps one too many dialogue references from the first 3 Alien films, but overall the dialogue was mostly kept in tone of what was going on. The fear factor in particular was very unnerving at times, there is a lot of gore and plenty of action in this movie as you might expect, but this is certainly the most intense imagery I've seen from any Alien film to date, including the original. As a few have already mentioned, there is a clear change of tone in the final act and it does feel a little rushed. It didn't spoil my enjoyment of the movie, however, some sequences did feel like they were pulled right out of some of the previous movies, and very obvious they are too. One last thing which isn't a spoiler, but thought I would mention even though I may be wrong. I'm almost sure I noticed something a little 'different' about the beast towards the end. Is this important, I'm not sure, maybe others noticed it as well, but I'll just have to see the movie again for a closer look.
As for my Alien series rankings:
ALIEN 10/10
ALIEN3 (assembly cut) 9/10
ALIENS 8/10
ALIEN: Covenant 7/10
PROMETHEUS 6/10
ALIEN: Resurrection 5/10
If I had to rank it now before my second viewing in IMAX, it'd be
Alien (10/10)
Aliens (8/10)
Alien: Covenant (710)
Prometheus (7/10)
Alien 3 (6 or 7/10) depending on cut/mood
everything else
I feel like Covenant is in such an awkward situation. It's better than Prometheus, but at the same time Prometheus succeeded where Covenant didn't. It's a conundrum atm.
I saw again today on IMAX and it´s getting worst after the second viewing. OMG, i can´t believe what Scott did to the franchise with Covenant.
Personally I'd rate them...
1. Aliens (10/10)
2. Alien 3 (8/10)
3. Prometheus (7.5/10)
4. Alien Covenant (3/10)
5. Alien (3/10)
6. Alien Resurrection (3/10)
7. AvP (1/10)
8. AvP:R (0/10)
Yes, I know I'm weird for hating the original. But I saw Aliens and Alien 3 before I saw Alien and found it dull and dated after seeing the other two. Would definitely have appreciated it more if I had seen it at release I'm sure.
Quote from: justind on May 11, 2017, 04:02:44 PM
Hi all,
Long time lurker, first time poster. Just came back from watching Covenant and feel compelled to write a quick review.
Quick preface:
In my book Alien is a masterpiece and Aliens is one of my top 5 most enjoyable movies. Alien 3 has some nostalgic resonance with me but it doesn't compete with the first two. I was more hyped for Prometheus than any other movie in my life so far. That first leaked camera recorded trailer had me in tears of joy. Obviously it ended up having huge issues with the pacing, editing, and acting (imo) but by far the biggest disappointment personally was the implication that the Space Jockey was human-like. I don't mind the Engineers in themselves but I still hold out hope that the Space Jockey race are God to the Engineers and other like them (such as in Covenant) and that a segment of Engineers (as seen in Prometheus) stole the fire of creation and made Humans. After seeing this movie I still believe this may happen.
So a few tidbits of thought that are stuck in my mind after seeing the film:
* The effects and shots are incredible for the most part. Don't really need to talk much about what worked as the vast majority of it was amazing.
* The parts that failed for me were a few shots of the creatures which were video game worthy not film. That said, most shots of the alien were better than expected and that I had seen before in promos. Also, I wish the alien vision later in the film was removed.
* Pacing was great and is including the final act. No problems for me and this was my main concern going in after reading the early reviews. Felt balanced.
* Lead-up to the planet was enjoyable and reminded me of Alien. Gave me a chance to get a feeling for the characters before the action. It felt real unlike Prometheus' corny and overly scripted interactions.
* Loved the look of the planet itself. Somehow pristine but 'off' at the same time.
* Acting was superb all the way around. I genuinely liked or appropriately disliked all the characters, especially Walter, David, Oram, and Tennessee. Daniels was also very good and not a Ripley clone. Everyone really pulled their weight which is so refreshing after Prometheus in which I strongly disliked every character including David (who is much much better here). Not saying any of it was Oscar nomination worthy (apart from maybe David) but it was very effective.
* Soundtrack was superb.
The following points contain storyline spoilers:
Spoiler
* Backbursting scene was brilliant and I got a huge adrenaline spike from it. Just wow. Real weight to it.
* That level is almost immediately raised another notch with the Neomorph attach in the field, which was the best scene for me. It was just so vicious and conveyed the creature's power and unnatural aggression. I could feel the panic and confusion. Some guy gets his jaw whipped off like nothing.. People getting mauled and torn apart... Seeing Walter try to defend Daniels and having his arm chewed off... No time to think... This scene had me shivering in bliss. The alien gfx was particularly good here, probably because it was so rapidly cut.
* Short breather in the Temple to gather breath then Ridley starts slowly turning the screw again.
* Hate to be morbid but the gore... In addition to the obvious burster and mauling scenes... Female carcass in the water being eaten... Autopsied body... Walter-David-flute... Disturbing.
* Again, loved Fassbender's acting. Razer sharp and unhinged.
* Shower scene music was fine. Heard some people complain that it was corny. It would have been if it was soundtrack rather on their radio. It served it's purpose which was to drown out the distant alarms.
That's a far as I'll go with specifics. Seriously don't ruin it for yourself if you haven't seen it. I'm not saying there are any revelationary twists or anything, as by this point of watching you will probably already know what is going to happen, but I'm glad I only knew basic script outline up until the backburster scene.
In summary, I just loved the whole feel to this movie. The decrepit dampness, the foreboding, the panic, the torment...
Score:
Divided my rating into two; technical and personal. Reason being that a movie can be appreciated but not 'liked' like.
Technical execution: 8.5/10
Personal resonance: 9.5/10
Overall: 9/10
So on the Alien spectrum:
Alien (10/10)>>Covenant=Aliens>>>>>>>>Alien3>>>>>>Prometheus>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Everything else Alien/AVP.
Yes, that's right. It is equal to Aliens in my mind. If the creature effects felt more 'practical' then it would surpass Aliens. Maybe I've just seen Aliens too many times haha. So I am very happy. I came in expecting something on Prometheus' level and got a whole lot more. It was just a great night at the cinema. Of course, I have some serious concerns about the direction Ridley is taking the mythology but I still see a way forward that respects the all sides. Time will tell.
So after sleeping on it I'm not as sure if it matches Aliens. Will need to see it again. I do know that Covenant has captured my interest more so than any other movie I have seen at the cinema in recent years (other than perhaps Interstellar).
Some more tibits:
Spoiler
* Drop ship down to planet was excellent. Really felt the danger and force of the atmosphere à la Alien. Prometheus it was way to smooth and easy in that aspect.
* Not too keen on how the spores seem to move through the air so intelligently but I suppose they are semi-sentient nano machines?
* Don't mind Oram acting 'stupidly' by following David. I feel like he is already halfway out the door in terms of his motivation to continue with existence and just wanted answers. After all how would you be knowing that your choice cost so many lives including that of your partner, especially in such a nightmarish way? I suspect you would want to know why they had to die. He probably wouldn't mind the chance to see her sooner if possible.
* Loved how no of the characters are perfect in their moral condition, bravery or thought process (except Walter). They make human choices.
* Liked the resolve in Water's in face when challenged to make choice by David (though David was just stalling). He might be my favourite character in the whole series now.
* The death of the both Protomorphs was underwhelming, especially the second one.
* After reading about the alternative ending I feel that would have been more sinister.
* I really liked how the Neomorph and Protomophs were able to stretch perfectly upright like a statue. Can't really put a finger on what I liked about that just do.
So how was the Alien portrayed in this movie? Was he big and powerful or weak and stupid? Just hoping he isn't AVPR level embarrassing.
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on May 12, 2017, 01:01:49 AM
So how was the Alien portrayed in this movie? Was he big and powerful or weak and stupid? Just hoping he isn't AVPR level embarrassing.
More like the original Alien's look combined with the aggression of the Xeno in Alien 3.. Tall, lean, fast, strong and aggressive. Way better than AVPR.
Quote from: bacchus on May 12, 2017, 01:28:42 AM
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on May 12, 2017, 01:01:49 AM
So how was the Alien portrayed in this movie? Was he big and powerful or weak and stupid? Just hoping he isn't AVPR level embarrassing.
More like the original Alien's look combined with the aggression of the Xeno in Alien 3.. Tall, lean, fast, strong and aggressive. Way better than AVPR.
Awesome.
Quote from: bacchus on May 12, 2017, 12:31:37 AM
Personally I'd rate them...
1. Aliens (10/10)
2. Alien 3 (8/10)
3. Prometheus (7.5/10)
4. Alien Covenant (3/10)
5. Alien (3/10)
6. Alien Resurrection (3/10)
7. AvP (1/10)
8. AvP:R (0/10)
Yes, I know I'm weird for hating the original. But I saw Aliens and Alien 3 before I saw Alien and found it dull and dated after seeing the other two. Would definitely have appreciated it more if I had seen it at release I'm sure.
Wut.
but the space jockey and the derelict... and what about the bonus situation?
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on May 12, 2017, 01:34:55 AM
Quote from: bacchus on May 12, 2017, 01:28:42 AM
Quote from: Jigsaw85 on May 12, 2017, 01:01:49 AM
So how was the Alien portrayed in this movie? Was he big and powerful or weak and stupid? Just hoping he isn't AVPR level embarrassing.
More like the original Alien's look combined with the aggression of the Xeno in Alien 3.. Tall, lean, fast, strong and aggressive. Way better than AVPR.
Awesome.
Yet very easily defeated.
Quote from: bacchus on May 12, 2017, 12:31:37 AM
Personally I'd rate them...
1. Aliens (10/10)
2. Alien 3 (8/10)
3. Prometheus (7.5/10)
4. Alien Covenant (3/10)
5. Alien (3/10)
6. Alien Resurrection (3/10)
7. AvP (1/10)
8. AvP:R (0/10)
Yes, I know I'm weird for hating the original. But I saw Aliens and Alien 3 before I saw Alien and found it dull and dated after seeing the other two. Would definitely have appreciated it more if I had seen it at release I'm sure.
Strange rankings. I love how different everyone's taste is.
Quote from: newagescamartist on May 12, 2017, 01:47:17 AM
Quote from: bacchus on May 12, 2017, 12:31:37 AM
Personally I'd rate them...
1. Aliens (10/10)
2. Alien 3 (8/10)
3. Prometheus (7.5/10)
4. Alien Covenant (3/10)
5. Alien (3/10)
6. Alien Resurrection (3/10)
7. AvP (1/10)
8. AvP:R (0/10)
Yes, I know I'm weird for hating the original. But I saw Aliens and Alien 3 before I saw Alien and found it dull and dated after seeing the other two. Would definitely have appreciated it more if I had seen it at release I'm sure.
Strange rankings. I love how different everyone's taste is.
I just find the original incredibly dull, slow and somewhat dated now.
Aliens is for me, the ultimate film of the franchise and had everything. Don't understand the amount of hate
Alien 3 gets. It wasn't a perfect film at all, and obviously not happy with the decision to kill off Newt and Hicks, but it was tense, entertaining, original and had great cinematography and production design.
Ranking is tough. My rankings are chronological (Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Alien: Resurrection). Covenant is at the end somewhere with A:R.
This is easily the weirdest Alien movie ever. The first 20-30 minutes are great, then it is all pure bat-shit insanity. I am not sure how anyone could think back after seeing this movie and not shake their head in amazement at some of the shit that happens in this film. It is almost "wooden planet" type bonkers.
Rating: 5 WTFs out of 10.
covenant is still holding on strong after 90 reviews. .currently sitting at 77 on rt
Quote from: ChrisPachi on May 12, 2017, 02:35:21 AM
This is easily the weirdest Alien movie ever. The first 20-30 minutes are great, then it is all pure bat-shit insanity. I am not sure how anyone could think back after seeing this movie and not shake their head in amazement at some of the shit that happens in this film. It is almost "wooden planet" type bonkers.
Love that line to sum it up, so true. The first 30 minutes were seriously
great, but then just bizarre creative choices by the writers. I think that equates to 25% great, 75% WTF. But not a good WTF.
These days, with big budget AAA movies targeting the brainless Saturday night popcorn crunching crowd, I'm happy if 80% of a movie is satisfying. 'ALIEN: Covenant' easily exceeds that goal for me.
I liked it - for what it is. A roller coaster ride of new and familiar tropes progressing the series onto new horizons. Yeah. Overall, this is a good thing.
-Windebieste.
Quote from: windebieste on May 12, 2017, 03:04:31 AM
These days, with big budget AAA movies targeting the brainless Saturday night popcorn crunching crowd, I'm happy if 80% of a movie is satisfying. 'ALIEN: Covenant' easily exceeds that goal for me.
I liked it - for what it is. A roller coaster ride of new and familiar tropes progressing the series onto new horizons. Yeah. Overall, this is a good thing.
-Windebieste.
So true - I find most films these days almost a chore to sit through. Covenant wasn't that bad, and better than 90% of films within this genre that are released these days.
Oh yeah, where would I rate it?
ALIEN
ALIEN 3
ALIENS
ALIEN: Covenant
PROMETHEUS
That's not my preferential order and I'll watch any of those movies. I like 'em all for different reasons. 'AvP' I might watch again sometime, maybe even this year. As for 'ALIEN: Resurrection' and 'AvP-R'..? Look, I recognise those titlesas part of the series and I know some people like 'em but I am happy without them in my life when the other movies have so much more appeal to me.
-Windebieste.
A bit of a rant first.
I tried to keep well away from any reviews and spoilers other then watching the first few trailers, and the first TV spot. However, keeping away from recent reviews was very hard to do with the likes of the Internet and Social Media. Well things were going great, I managed to kept away from AVP Galaxy and avoided most known sources that will most likely have Alien Covenant reviews over the last few weeks... BUT afew days ago my f**king phone let me down when I was checking the daily world news on my Upday app that's on my phone. The first thing I seen in big bold black letters on my mobile screen was "Alien: Covenant review: a stupid, disappointing mess that cheapens the original franchise" (by wired.co.uk) Dam I was looking forward to going to see Covenant without knowing any reviews like I did when I first seen Prometheus back in 2012... Dam this put me on a downer for the rest of that day. However Iater that day, i decided to check a few more reviews to see if it was really as bad of what wired.co.uk said in there title? I first read some tiny bits of Private Hudson's review why trying to keep away from any spoilers. Then I read some of the overall reviews (mostly the positive ones) that were on AVP Galaxy's front page. After that my hopes went back up since most of the reviews were saying it's better then Prometheus and I infact like Prometheus so this could be a good thing.
Well I managed to get to a premier at my local cinema that was showing Alien Covenant on the 11th at 8:30pm and here is what I think.
Alien Covenant is good, but not as good as Alien or Aliens, let's be fair Ridley Scott never going to top his own film Alien. I would say its a solid sequel to Prometheus, if ur ok with Prometheus going down the Alien path. I do think some fans are going to be pleased, were some are going to have problems with this film. However what Ridley Scott has done is miles better then any of the later Alien and AvP films. And Covenant just tops Prometheus with better action and horror ands it's pretty brutal and gory for a 15 certificate.
Will contain plot SPOILERS so only read on if you already seen it. Or if you don't care for spoilers....
SPOILERS....
......
...
Plot:
Basically the Trailers and TV spots give away too much of the story. And it steals alot from the first Alien movie. Sometimes it improves on them, were sometimes it doesn't. An example I liked was how they received the signal from Shaw. Were I did not care much for the Alien getting tracked by Walter or should I say David when it was hunting Daniels and Tennessee in the final act of the film. It just felt Ridley was shoehorning some of the things that work really well in the first Alien movie and trying to do them on a much bigger scale in Covenant.
We all knew David was going to turn bad. He has basically become Dr Frankenstein with abit of Roy Batty thrown in. I'm still not 100% sure if david will become the creator of the classic Xeno from Alien? The Eggs that he creates in Covenant seem to be of him playing about with the black goo and insects and other organic matter. However because someone behind me was eating a big bag of crisp and making loads of noise, I had problems making out the dialogue when David was talking to Walter or the captain who got facehugged. Talking about David, it was very obvious that he was pretending to be Walter when he got on the ship and escaped the planet with Daniels and Tennessee and that other dude. The film is definitely left wide open for a sequel and God knows what David will get up to with all them humans in cryo sleep. Another thing we don't see Walter die so is it possible that he survived? He also had healing capabilities because that wound on his neck heals when David first attacks him? Also did at least one Neomorph survived on the planet at the end? I can only remember one getting killed by the captain?
The lack of The Engineers was a bit disappointing, I wanted to see more of the one from Prometheus. We do get to see a short scene were David releases black goo on the city below that have a species similar to the engineer's but it's not clear if they are the same race? David just wipes out the whole city/planet? I hope we get to see the Engineers from Prometheus back in the next film.
In the Final Act that scene where Daniel's was swinging around on that steal cable why trying to shoot the Alien seemed a little over the top. The reason I say this, is because everytime she was swinging about trying to shoot the Alien I was thinking if that was real the ships burners would Fry her to death. How f**king lucky can she be? And it was not just that, f**king Tennessee was crashing in to things when trying to keep the ship stable in flight. Man she was lucky to get through that unscathed. I'm gunna put it in the same over the top scenario as Ripley having the Queen hanging of her leg why the air lock is open in Aliens.
Another dumb moment was adventuring out into the open (even if you heard a signal from another human) without a space suit. Now I can't remember if it was hinted that the planets air was breathable and safe in Covenant? If it was then fine, but I can't remember anything being said before they went looking for the ghost signal? However if not then Ridley you need to at least not repeat this Cliche.
Cast:
Michael Fassbender yet again steals the show as David and Walter. The other cast members were either forgetful or neutral when on screen. However thank God the weren't as dumb as some of the crew members from Prometheus. Daniels just felt like another Ripley type, and I don't think her character brought anything new to the Table. People give Noomi Rapace playing Shaw a lot of stick, but at least Shaw character felt fresh and not another Ripley wannabe clone. Basically non of the actors did a bad job in Covenant. The just never stood out, like the cast of Alien/Aliens only Michael Fassbender did when playing his roles and that brief appearance by Guy Pearce.
Neomorphs/Xenomorph
I thought the Neomorph design looked freaky, especially that scene in the movie were David gets confronted by an adult Neomorph. The Xenomorph looks good as well. However u will notice they can sometimes look abit CGI in some parts. The life cycle seems to be a lot faster then in any other films you will literally see the Xeno/Neo grow right in front of your eyes, it looks very weird. The one problem I had with both the Neo and Xeno was they both move way to fast and bounce around way to much, making it hard to appreciate the design of the creatures, because everything is moving way to fast on screen when either are attacking humans. But when we do get shots of both creatures standing, looking around or walking normally they look very scary and horrifying.
The Xeno most of the time moves on all fours just like the runner from Alien3 did. However the was a brief moment at the end were it was walking on two legs looking for Daniels and Tennessee in that room with the vehicles and it looked awsome in a freaky disturbing way. I almost had a vibe that Bolaji Badejo soul was inside that alien in that brief moment. Wish we got more alien walking around on 2 legs.
I think I liked the Neomorph more in this film then the Xenomorph. The is nothing wrong with the Xenomorph it looks great and serves its purpose but them adult Neomorphs look f**king creepy and are refreshing to look at. Would love to see it in the shadows picking people off slowly. That's what's also missing from this film, the lack of the boogeyman lurking in the shadows taking its time to kill. more scenes like Brett's death in Alien were the suspense builds up would of been a welcome, and not always have them attack like the mindless zombies from World War Z.
SPOILER END..................
.........
.....
..
Overall:
Positives:
Fassbender and the small brief appearance of Guy Pearce.
Neomorphs/Xenomorphs
Pretty violent and gory for a 15.
Looks gorgeous.
Music Score is excellent a mixture of both Alien and Prometheus.
Definitely left open for an interesting sequel.
No dumb characters like Fifield and Millburn from Prometheus.
David art work being a nod to Gigers.
My mate being stoned out of his head on whitey why watching this. Lol I never knew he was stoned, he just looked a little white and was shivering after the film was over. He did say the film f**ked him up lol. Don't do drugs kids ;)
Negatives:
Lack of the Engineers race.
has one or two movie cliches.
Last act pacing seems to be a little rushed.
You won't care for most of the characters.
Verdict:
A solid 7/10. Infact I'm pushing towards a 8/10 i am definitely stuck between a 7 and 8. Defo one of the better Alien films and just tops Prometheus. I can't wait to see were the sequel to Covenant takes us.
My films in order as of now are.
Alien
Aliens
Alien Covenant
Prometheus
Alien Res/Alien3 still wonded by A3.
Quote from: Kimo on May 12, 2017, 03:28:10 AM
it's pretty brutal and gory for a 15 certificate.
I was amazed by the level of gore in the film for a 15, there was buckets of it. ;D
What I did notice was a lack of swearing/bad language, so maybe that helped bring the rating down.
Comprehensive review by the way, Kimo.
Quote from: bacchus on May 12, 2017, 03:34:06 AM
Quote from: Kimo on May 12, 2017, 03:28:10 AM
it's pretty brutal and gory for a 15 certificate.
I was amazed by the level of gore in the film for a 15, there was buckets of it. ;D
What I did notice was a lack of swearing/bad language, so maybe that helped bring the rating down.
Comprehensive review by the way, Kimo.
Ya I think I only remember hearing 2 swear words. I think you need a tone of boob and sex shots and the C word to get a 18 these days.
. .but why 3 out of 10 then bacchus?. .c'mon. .and no movie is so great it deserves a 10 or so crap it deserves a 0. .even avpr for that matter
See the result of this Survey, you people deserve what is coming to this franchise. :-\ :-\
Quote from: juxtapose on May 12, 2017, 04:02:22 AM
. .but why 3 out of 10 then bacchus?. .c'mon. .and no movie is so great it deserves a 10 or so crap it deserves a 0. .even avpr for that matter
I
really wanted it to be great. Lots of people do think it's great, so I'm probably in the minority.
Lack of scares, recycling of previous Alien movies, lack of originality, anything remotely original wasn't well executed and confusing at best. Some of the CG wasn't great and was distracting. Lack of character development or sympathy for any of the characters. Ending felt rushed, and the movie just went from one set piece to another without much thought. Could have benefited from being longer, and including the 'Last Supper' prologue for a couple of reasons.
I did like the practical effects with the neomorph and the gore, and as I said in a couple of threads, the first 30 minutes of the film are great with some really good scenes. Production design and the sets are beautiful. However, the final 90 minutes is just filled with all of the above issues.
Going to re-watch it tomorrow for a second opinion.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on May 12, 2017, 02:35:21 AM
Ranking is tough. My rankings are chronological (Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Alien: Resurrection). Covenant is at the end somewhere with A:R.
This is easily the weirdest Alien movie ever. The first 20-30 minutes are great, then it is all pure bat-shit insanity. I am not sure how anyone could think back after seeing this movie and not shake their head in amazement at some of the shit that happens in this film. It is almost "wooden planet" type bonkers.
Rating: 5 WTFs out of 10.
That's the most appealing description of Covenant that I've read so far.
I just saw it and I LOVED IT!.
But I understand why some of you are hating it.
I think PROMETHEUS is a failure but a very interesting failure.
ALIEN: COVENANT works A LOT BETTER than PROMETHEUS but at the same time it's a more simple film.
Still I love 4 aspects of ALIEN: COVENANT:
1.- Sir Ridley Scott: His Directing is VERY STRONG. Its FRANTIC rithm and pace is perfection. It felt very modern.
2.- Michael Fassbender: His acting is perfection. After this film, I think Michael Fassbender is the greatest actor worldwide. Better than Leonardo DiCaprio.
3.- Katherine Waterston: She works better than Noomi Rapace in PROMETHEUS. Katherine Waterston is the Heart of this movie.
4.- The Production Design by Chris Seagers: BEAUTIFUL!.
I forgot MY ALL TIME RANKING:
1.- ALIEN.
2.- ALIENS.
3.- ALIEN: COVENANT.
4.- PROMETHEUS.
5.- ALIEN 3.
6.- ALIEN: RESURRECTION.
7.- ALIEN VS PREDATOR.
8.- ALIEN VS PREDATOR: REQUIEM.
I'm surprised by some of the hate for Covenant in this thread. Covenant had its problems but overall its a half decent Alien/Prometheus flix... Look on the bright side kids? Think of the worst case scenario? We could all be ultimate Terminator Fans and live and breath Terminator 24/7 and all we have had in the last 20years is Terminator 3, Sarah Conner Chronicles, Salvation and that God awful Terminator genisys to cry over and moan about. Just think of them poor bastards. ;D
Quote from: Kimo on May 12, 2017, 05:25:37 AM
I'm surprised by some of the hate for Covenant in this thread. Covenant had its problems but overall its a half decent Alien/Prometheus flix... Look on the bright side kids? Think of the worst case scenario? We could all be ultimate Terminator Fans and live and breath Terminator 24/7 and all we have had in the last 20years is Terminator 3, Sarah Conner Chronicles, Salvation and that God awful Terminator genisys to cry over and moan about. Just think of them poor bastards. ;D
Well AvP and AvPR were bad enough...
But yeah, the Terminator fanboys have had a really tough couple of decades.
isn't cameron working on a new terminator reboot
Quote from: Whos_Nick on May 12, 2017, 05:27:52 AM
isn't cameron working on a new terminator reboot
Think that's dead in the water. He's a little busy with the 4 back-to-back Avatar sequels he's working on simultaneously.
We won't see a new Terminator movie for a long term, which is a good thing. When they do, it'll likely be a complete reboot with a new storyline and no Arnie, which is probably for the best.
"A failure but an interesting failure" -----Spot on and beautifully said, my friend
I thought the score was great too.
Quote from: Sway on May 12, 2017, 05:34:32 AM
"A failure but an interesting failure" -----Spot on and beautifully said, my friend
Thanks.
Maybe in the future, PROMETHEUS is going to be rediscovered like BLADE RUNNER.
I don't know anymore.
Now thats how you do an Alien movie, i thought it was totally brilliant.
Over the years i have been one of Prometheus's harshest critics but Alien covenant was such a relief that they pulled it off.
Yes there are faults and one dissapointment was the cut scenes of the Alien, what happened to the red corridor, where was the scene with Mother "its 4 feet above you"? We have to remember the incredibly high standards by which we are judging this film, Alien & Aliens are freaks of cinema, films like that will never be achieved ever again 10 out of 10's. But Covenant easily gains a healthy 8/10.
Best scene of the film has to be the birth of the main Xeno, the way it and David stand looking at each other, wonderful stuff.
Quote from: dave1978 on May 12, 2017, 06:03:18 AM
Now thats how you do an Alien movie, i thought it was totally brilliant.
Over the years i have been one of Prometheus's harshest critics but Alien covenant was such a relief that they pulled it off.
Yes there are faults and one dissapointment was the cut scenes of the Alien, what happened to the red corridor, where was the scene with Mother "its 4 feet above you"? We have to remember the incredibly high standards by which we are judging this film, Alien & Aliens are freaks of cinema, films like that will never be achieved ever again 10 out of 10's. But Covenant easily gains a healthy 8/10.
Best scene of the film has to be the birth of the main Xeno, the way it and David stand looking at each other, wonderful stuff.
look stupid to me. (i hear some people giggle)
Quote from: newagescamartist on May 12, 2017, 01:47:17 AM
Quote from: bacchus on May 12, 2017, 12:31:37 AM
Personally I'd rate them...
1. Aliens (10/10)
2. Alien 3 (8/10)
3. Prometheus (7.5/10)
4. Alien Covenant (3/10)
5. Alien (3/10)
6. Alien Resurrection (3/10)
7. AvP (1/10)
8. AvP:R (0/10)
Yes, I know I'm weird for hating the original. But I saw Aliens and Alien 3 before I saw Alien and found it dull and dated after seeing the other two. Would definitely have appreciated it more if I had seen it at release I'm sure.
Strange rankings. I love how different everyone's taste is.
Which is why the opinions here are largely academic, although interesting, and don't really reflect the reality (only our own reality of course).
. .how many birth scenes are in this movie. .back, throat and chest. .so counting 3 and how many neo's are running around?. .and just one xeno i am guessing?
Quote from: juxtapose on May 12, 2017, 06:40:45 AM
. .how many birth scenes are in this movie. .back, throat and chest. .so counting 3 and how many neo's are running around?. .and just one xeno i am guessing?
2 neo 2 xeno
Quote from: gantarat on May 12, 2017, 06:26:01 AM
Quote from: dave1978 on May 12, 2017, 06:03:18 AM
Now thats how you do an Alien movie, i thought it was totally brilliant.
Over the years i have been one of Prometheus's harshest critics but Alien covenant was such a relief that they pulled it off.
Yes there are faults and one dissapointment was the cut scenes of the Alien, what happened to the red corridor, where was the scene with Mother "its 4 feet above you"? We have to remember the incredibly high standards by which we are judging this film, Alien & Aliens are freaks of cinema, films like that will never be achieved ever again 10 out of 10's. But Covenant easily gains a healthy 8/10.
Best scene of the film has to be the birth of the main Xeno, the way it and David stand looking at each other, wonderful stuff.
look stupid to me. (i hear some people giggle)
That's how I felt. I think there was a collective cringe in the cinema I was in over that shite
awesome!
Quote from: Kimo on May 12, 2017, 05:25:37 AM
I'm surprised by some of the hate for Covenant in this thread. Covenant had its problems but overall its a half decent Alien/Prometheus flix... Look on the bright side kids? Think of the worst case scenario? We could all be ultimate Terminator Fans and live and breath Terminator 24/7 and all we have had in the last 20years is Terminator 3, Sarah Conner Chronicles, Salvation and that God awful Terminator genisys to cry over and moan about. Just think of them poor bastards. ;D
The only way to get the films you want is to reject those that regard you as a mindless consumer of junk. Unless, of course, you are a mindless consumer of junk, in which case you'll be delighted.
Quote from: USS-Sulaco on May 12, 2017, 06:51:08 AM
Quote from: gantarat on May 12, 2017, 06:26:01 AM
Quote from: dave1978 on May 12, 2017, 06:03:18 AM
Now thats how you do an Alien movie, i thought it was totally brilliant.
Over the years i have been one of Prometheus's harshest critics but Alien covenant was such a relief that they pulled it off.
Yes there are faults and one dissapointment was the cut scenes of the Alien, what happened to the red corridor, where was the scene with Mother "its 4 feet above you"? We have to remember the incredibly high standards by which we are judging this film, Alien & Aliens are freaks of cinema, films like that will never be achieved ever again 10 out of 10's. But Covenant easily gains a healthy 8/10.
Best scene of the film has to be the birth of the main Xeno, the way it and David stand looking at each other, wonderful stuff.
look stupid to me. (i hear some people giggle)
That's how I felt. I think there was a collective cringe in the cinema I was in over that shite
Thats the point my 'willing the film to get better' ran out, I think. There were lots of laughs, FFS's, tuts and facepalms going on where I was.
*wavey hands*
"Hello Mr David!! Screeeeeee!!"
Quote from: ebbhead40 on May 12, 2017, 07:27:23 AM
Quote from: USS-Sulaco on May 12, 2017, 06:51:08 AM
Quote from: gantarat on May 12, 2017, 06:26:01 AM
Quote from: dave1978 on May 12, 2017, 06:03:18 AM
Now thats how you do an Alien movie, i thought it was totally brilliant.
Over the years i have been one of Prometheus's harshest critics but Alien covenant was such a relief that they pulled it off.
Yes there are faults and one dissapointment was the cut scenes of the Alien, what happened to the red corridor, where was the scene with Mother "its 4 feet above you"? We have to remember the incredibly high standards by which we are judging this film, Alien & Aliens are freaks of cinema, films like that will never be achieved ever again 10 out of 10's. But Covenant easily gains a healthy 8/10.
Best scene of the film has to be the birth of the main Xeno, the way it and David stand looking at each other, wonderful stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrxlbLVcpqI
look stupid to me. (i hear some people giggle)
That's how I felt. I think there was a collective cringe in the cinema I was in over that shite
Thats the point my 'willing the film to get better' ran out, I think. There were lots of laughs, FFS's, tuts and facepalms going on where I was.
*wavey hands*
"Hello Mr David!! Screeeeeee!!"
Quote from: 900SL on May 12, 2017, 07:05:07 AM
Quote from: Kimo on May 12, 2017, 05:25:37 AM
I'm surprised by some of the hate for Covenant in this thread. Covenant had its problems but overall its a half decent Alien/Prometheus flix... Look on the bright side kids? Think of the worst case scenario? We could all be ultimate Terminator Fans and live and breath Terminator 24/7 and all we have had in the last 20years is Terminator 3, Sarah Conner Chronicles, Salvation and that God awful Terminator genisys to cry over and moan about. Just think of them poor bastards. ;D
The only way to get the films you want is to reject those that regard you as a mindless consumer of junk. Unless, of course, you are a mindless consumer of junk, in which case you'll be delighted.
Or simply refrain from supporting endless franchises, sequels, geek communities/culture... and instead, support new films/drama etc. We're all sucking on the same teet...
Quote from: ebbhead40 on May 12, 2017, 07:27:23 AM
Quote from: USS-Sulaco on May 12, 2017, 06:51:08 AM
Quote from: gantarat on May 12, 2017, 06:26:01 AM
Quote from: dave1978 on May 12, 2017, 06:03:18 AM
Now thats how you do an Alien movie, i thought it was totally brilliant.
Over the years i have been one of Prometheus's harshest critics but Alien covenant was such a relief that they pulled it off.
Yes there are faults and one dissapointment was the cut scenes of the Alien, what happened to the red corridor, where was the scene with Mother "its 4 feet above you"? We have to remember the incredibly high standards by which we are judging this film, Alien & Aliens are freaks of cinema, films like that will never be achieved ever again 10 out of 10's. But Covenant easily gains a healthy 8/10.
Best scene of the film has to be the birth of the main Xeno, the way it and David stand looking at each other, wonderful stuff.
look stupid to me. (i hear some people giggle)
That's how I felt. I think there was a collective cringe in the cinema I was in over that shite
Thats the point my 'willing the film to get better' ran out, I think. There were lots of laughs, FFS's, tuts and facepalms going on where I was.
*wavey hands*
"Hello Mr David!! Screeeeeee!!"
Haha at least I was enjoying the film thoroughly to that point. Would've been even worse if I wasn't and then that was the icing on the turd cake (had even suspended my disbelief on Orams about turn after calling David the devil and then 180 turn 'oh actually I might trust you after all you old rascal, lead me to my death')
Quote from: USS-Sulaco on May 12, 2017, 07:51:35 AM
Quote from: ebbhead40 on May 12, 2017, 07:27:23 AM
Quote from: USS-Sulaco on May 12, 2017, 06:51:08 AM
Quote from: gantarat on May 12, 2017, 06:26:01 AM
Quote from: dave1978 on May 12, 2017, 06:03:18 AM
Now thats how you do an Alien movie, i thought it was totally brilliant.
Over the years i have been one of Prometheus's harshest critics but Alien covenant was such a relief that they pulled it off.
Yes there are faults and one dissapointment was the cut scenes of the Alien, what happened to the red corridor, where was the scene with Mother "its 4 feet above you"? We have to remember the incredibly high standards by which we are judging this film, Alien & Aliens are freaks of cinema, films like that will never be achieved ever again 10 out of 10's. But Covenant easily gains a healthy 8/10.
Best scene of the film has to be the birth of the main Xeno, the way it and David stand looking at each other, wonderful stuff.
look stupid to me. (i hear some people giggle)
That's how I felt. I think there was a collective cringe in the cinema I was in over that shite
Thats the point my 'willing the film to get better' ran out, I think. There were lots of laughs, FFS's, tuts and facepalms going on where I was.
*wavey hands*
"Hello Mr David!! Screeeeeee!!"
Haha at least I was enjoying the film thoroughly to that point. Would've been even worse if I wasn't and then that was the icing on the turd cake (had even suspended my disbelief on Orams about turn after calling David the devil and then 180 turn 'oh actually I might trust you after all you old rascal, lead me to my death')
He had him pegged completely, then he turns and trusts the treacherous prick a moment later and pays the price. That made less sense than anything character-wise in
Prometheus.
God damn!!
Id give this a solid 4 out of 5.
I got exactly what i wanted out of it. I loved it. Wasnt as hyped as i thought i would have for this film when it was announced but it surprised me by actually. . . Being good.
There are some scenes that are burned into my mind right now.
The film has left some unanswered questions but im fine with that seeing as how they haver already written a sequel so at least now we know these films wont be made up as they go along. Cant wait for the sequel.
RIDLEY SCOTT my whigga. You made a great scifi film again. Congrats. For a while there i thought blade runner and Alien were just flukes.
I can see why some people dont like it but i guess im just easy to please with films. Only gripe I have though. . Why in scifi films, do explorers always take off their freakin helmets!!!
Quote from: Elmazalman on May 12, 2017, 07:56:46 AM
Quote from: USS-Sulaco on May 12, 2017, 07:51:35 AM
Quote from: ebbhead40 on May 12, 2017, 07:27:23 AM
Quote from: USS-Sulaco on May 12, 2017, 06:51:08 AM
Quote from: gantarat on May 12, 2017, 06:26:01 AM
Quote from: dave1978 on May 12, 2017, 06:03:18 AM
Now thats how you do an Alien movie, i thought it was totally brilliant.
Over the years i have been one of Prometheus's harshest critics but Alien covenant was such a relief that they pulled it off.
Yes there are faults and one dissapointment was the cut scenes of the Alien, what happened to the red corridor, where was the scene with Mother "its 4 feet above you"? We have to remember the incredibly high standards by which we are judging this film, Alien & Aliens are freaks of cinema, films like that will never be achieved ever again 10 out of 10's. But Covenant easily gains a healthy 8/10.
Best scene of the film has to be the birth of the main Xeno, the way it and David stand looking at each other, wonderful stuff.
look stupid to me. (i hear some people giggle)
That's how I felt. I think there was a collective cringe in the cinema I was in over that shite
Thats the point my 'willing the film to get better' ran out, I think. There were lots of laughs, FFS's, tuts and facepalms going on where I was.
*wavey hands*
"Hello Mr David!! Screeeeeee!!"
Haha at least I was enjoying the film thoroughly to that point. Would've been even worse if I wasn't and then that was the icing on the turd cake (had even suspended my disbelief on Orams about turn after calling David the devil and then 180 turn 'oh actually I might trust you after all you old rascal, lead me to my death')
He had him pegged completely, then he turns and trusts the treacherous prick a moment later and pays the price. That made less sense than anything character-wise in Prometheus.
He wanted to know what was going on. He was the one with a gun. I don't think he expected to be facehugged.
Spoiler
Again, he literally just saw the android trying to talk and sympathize with the monster, then got a 5 minute tour through David's house of horrors where he explains he's been improving said monsters. He has zero reason to trust David or feel safe sticking his face in an alien object.
Quote from: PierreVW on May 12, 2017, 05:24:38 AM
I just saw it and I LOVED IT!.
But I understand why some of you are hating it.
I think PROMETHEUS is a failure but a very interesting failure.
ALIEN: COVENANT works A LOT BETTER than PROMETHEUS but at the same time it's a more simple film.
Still I love 4 aspects of ALIEN: COVENANT:
1.- Sir Ridley Scott: His Directing is VERY STRONG. Its FRANTIC rithm and pace is perfection. It felt very modern.
2.- Michael Fassbender: His acting is perfection. After this film, I think Michael Fassbender is the greatest actor worldwide. Better than Leonardo DiCaprio.
3.- Katherine Waterston: She works better than Noomi Rapace in PROMETHEUS. Katherine Waterston is the Heart of this movie.
4.- The Production Design by Chris Seagers: BEAUTIFUL!.
I forgot MY ALL TIME RANKING:
1.- ALIEN.
2.- ALIENS.
3.- ALIEN: COVENANT.
4.- PROMETHEUS.
5.- ALIEN 3.
6.- ALIEN: RESURRECTION.
7.- ALIEN VS PREDATOR.
8.- ALIEN VS PREDATOR: REQUIEM.
Merging with existing fan reviews thread.
As for ratings, I'm going to stick Covenant around Alien Resurrection. They have merits, but they're not what I want out of an Alien film and I'm happy not paying them much attention going forward.
Went to see it last night and I really enjoyed it. As a big fan of Alien and Prometheus I left the cinema satisfied.
There are some wonderful moments in this film imo. The David and Walter scenes were standout for me and I personally have no qualms with the direction that they appear to be taking with David's storyline. The other scene I loved was the lander approach and landing on the planet - mind blowing visuals.
I loved the cast who did a great job - no individual or line of dialog bothered me (apart from the Daniel's line about blowing it into space!).
Special mention for the music score by Jed Kurzel which worked very well and enhanced the mood of the visuals and story. Seemed to me he came on board to this project quite late in production so a fantastic job by him in quite a short amount of time.
I'm glad they did both prologues but feel they maybe could have integrated them into the final cut somehow instead.
Looking forward to the next movie and the books by ADF.
My ranking:
1) Alien 10/10
2) Aliens 10/10
3) Alien Covenant 8.5/10
4) Prometheus 8/10
5) Alien 3 7/10
6) Resurrection 3/10
For record:
Alien
Aliens
Alien3
Resurrection
Covenant
Prometheus.
Saw it last night. Very uneven movie. Some great scenes (prologue) and some soulless ones. When it comes to Alien lore plenty of WTF? moments. There are even some comedic moment Resurrection-alike. It's a solid but generic movie. Editing could have been better. Ridley Scott is an entertainer and Covenant is an popcorn flick. Scott lost his magic but he's able to make a decent movies.
6.5 out of 10.
I'm gonna watch it again on blu-ray. It's very re-watchable movie which is a merit.
Honestly, I think Scott is too big for these films. Alien was great because it had such a great collaborative creative team on it. People don't tell Scott no now and Scott tends to bend to the studios (*cough* Alien inclusion that felt forced because it was *cough*) because he knows how to play the game to get what he wants (David).
While I like David, I'd still a rather rounded out finished production. I think it's time we got back to new faces.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 12, 2017, 08:16:13 AM
Honestly, I think Scott is too big for these films. Alien was great because it had such a great collaborative creative team on it. People don't tell Scott no now and Scott tends to bend to the studios (*cough* Alien inclusion that felt forced because it was *cough*) because he knows how to play the game to get what he wants (David).
While I like David, I'd still a rather rounded out finished production. I think it's time we got back to new faces.
This. I'm starting to regret manifesting the death of Neill Blomkamp's Alien 5. :(
I don't think Blomkamp's project as we knew it would have been good but I'd have no issues with seeing him tackle a different story.
I think it all hangs on whether or not you like 'David the mental AI creatOr' angle or not. The trouble I have is that for me the Alien universe was great because the scifi elements were grounded in a believable, 'real' future feeling. The whole David thing was handled in a way that started to stray off into almost fantasy territory.
Alien
Aliens
Alien3
Prometheus
Covenant
Resurrection
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 12, 2017, 08:23:12 AM
I don't think Blomkamp's project as we knew it would have been good but I'd have no issues with seeing him tackle a different story.
Absolutely! I still think he'd be a great successor to Scott for continuing the series. Him, or Villeneuve. Both of those Directors have the technical skills and background in bringing SF content to the screen.
It doesn't matter who makes the next movie, though. They'll need a thoroughly kick ass writer to bring it to life.
-Windebieste.
Quote from: windebieste on May 12, 2017, 08:29:07 AM
It doesn't matter who makes the next movie, though. They'll need a thoroughly kick ass writer to bring it to life.
And a director who will listen to that writer.
Alien Blomkamp's concept art
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeS30Vq7l.jpg&hash=20014e40e26687a72c1dc77080a11d56828ca276)
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 12, 2017, 08:32:02 AM
Quote from: windebieste on May 12, 2017, 08:29:07 AM
It doesn't matter who makes the next movie, though. They'll need a thoroughly kick ass writer to bring it to life.
And a director who will listen to that writer.
Apart from if it's Lindelof right?
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 12, 2017, 08:32:02 AM
Quote from: windebieste on May 12, 2017, 08:29:07 AM
It doesn't matter who makes the next movie, though. They'll need a thoroughly kick ass writer to bring it to life.
And a director who will listen to that writer.
But it was John Logan who convinced Ridley to come back to Xenomorph stuff.
Quote from: gantarat on May 12, 2017, 08:35:42 AM
Alien Blomkamp's concept art
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeS30Vq7l.jpg&hash=20014e40e26687a72c1dc77080a11d56828ca276)
That did not come from Blomkamp's team. That is fan art.
Quote from: gantarat on May 12, 2017, 08:35:42 AM
Alien Blomkamp's concept art
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeS30Vq7l.jpg&hash=20014e40e26687a72c1dc77080a11d56828ca276)
That's just fanart.
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/qQvKD
Quote from: Ingwar on May 12, 2017, 08:35:59 AM
But it was John Logan who convinced Ridley to come back to Xenomorph stuff.
I'm told that came down from Fox.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 12, 2017, 08:43:55 AM
Quote from: Ingwar on May 12, 2017, 08:35:59 AM
But it was John Logan who convinced Ridley to come back to Xenomorph stuff.
I'm told that came down from Fox.
If it came down from Fox then it means that writer didn't have much to say anyway. It's Fox movie.
Obviously, we don't know the full picture yet. But yes, it's Fox's movie. And they're mis-reacting to Prometheus with this. However, in an ideal world it'd be nice to have a writer (and/or director) who isn't hampered by damaging edicts from above, a director who people dare say "this is a bad idea" to and etc.
I'm going to watch the film again tomorrow before composing my final thoughts. First reaction below though:
Spoiler
- They didn't get the Alien right :( almost everything was off. Oram had a chest splatter of blood before expressing pain;
the life cycle was too quick and the facehugger impregnation on Lope was facepalm. The adult variation was full on AvP almost. No elegant, sinister, almost beautiful portrayal that has been sorely missed since '79 (maybe 86)
+ However I liked the new chestburster. Translucent and spindly, it's a disregard of the old design but one that's executed well enough.
+ Loved the Neomorph. The backburster remains the most thrilling sequence in the film from the preview footage.
- The second act left me cold. Tonal switch to Prometheus 2 from an outright Alien film was jarring. Even though I did like the Fassbender philosophical babbling
+ Fassbender is just outright wacky and crazy as David. Scenes between David and Walter are weird yet appreciated for adding a bit more complexity to your standard Aliens killing everything movie.
+ Acting is generally really good.
- Characterisation is null and void however.
+ David's little shop of horrors.
+ In what is otherwise an extremely bleak film, there is some genuine giggles mostly from Fassbender's androids. "Let me do the fingering" and "Don't let the bed bugs bite" were hilarious.
- I felt it was too short. The breakneck pace after they land on the planet needed padding out in some section, probably the third act. Actually definitely the third act. More care to the Alien life-cycle would have been greatly appreciated and may have bumped it up a mark in my books.
+ Looks gorgeous.
I can't muster up a rating yet - but I know where I'd put it in rankings:
AlienAliensAlien 3Alien: CovenantPrometheusAlien Resurrection
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 12, 2017, 08:43:55 AM
Quote from: gantarat on May 12, 2017, 08:35:42 AM
Alien Blomkamp's concept art
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeS30Vq7l.jpg&hash=20014e40e26687a72c1dc77080a11d56828ca276)
That's just fanart.
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/qQvKD
oh my bad.
Everyone moaning the life cycle was too quick, are you forgetting Alien??? it burst from Kane and was 8 feet tall in under 10 minutes in the film, hours in the story. give it a rest
Somebody post the current results... I still have a week to go!
Quote from: dave1978 on May 12, 2017, 09:15:24 AM
Everyone moaning the life cycle was too quick, are you forgetting Alien??? it burst from Kane and was 8 feet tall in under 10 minutes in the film, hours in the story. give it a rest
Seriously? Alien implies a longer time between burster and the death of Brett at the hands of the big chap. They even have time to have a funeral for Kane and shoot him out into space before having a big team meeting to plan, ash to craft a motion detector from scratch, before they go hunting. Covenant seems to imply a much shorter duration.
Yes there is ambiguity in both movies as to how much time has past, but a reasonable person watching both movies side by side would assume much more time has past in alien.
Quote from: SiL on May 12, 2017, 08:01:02 AM
Spoiler
Again, he literally just saw the android trying to talk and sympathize with the monster, then got a 5 minute tour through David's house of horrors where he explains he's been improving said monsters. He has zero reason to trust David or feel safe sticking his face in an alien object.
Meh, he's definitely gullible, but curiosity was too strong.
i don't understand why
Spoiler
Lope have alien inside him ? yeah fachugger attack him but that just few second before get cut off
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBvbmCPZ0vg&spfreload=5
Quote from: gantarat on May 12, 2017, 09:48:21 AMi don't understand why
Spoiler
Lope have alien inside him ? yeah fachugger attack him but that just few second before get cut off
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBvbmCPZ0vg&spfreload=5
Desperate attempt to surprise the audience with an Alien in the final act... despite the fact the trailers showed us one on the ship so everyone knew it was coming anyway.
Quote from: gantarat on May 12, 2017, 09:48:21 AM
i don't understand why
Spoiler
Lope have alien inside him ? yeah fachugger attack him but that just few second before get cut off
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBvbmCPZ0vg&spfreload=5
The facehugger was just able to impregnate Lope very quickly. The entire lifecycles/growth of the creatures is super fast in Covenant.
When I spoke to Bichir in the junket he said something to the effect of
Spoiler
whatever was spilled on his cheek - which I took to be acid - (I can't remember the exact wording) was responsible for infecting him.
Hopefully should be seeing this on Saturday or Sunday. So will finally be able to read spoilers after then lol
This will be the first Alien film I will have seen in the Cinema, so should be fun
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 12, 2017, 09:56:42 AM
When I spoke to Bichir in the junket he said something to the effect of
Spoiler
whatever was spilled on his cheek - which I took to be acid - (I can't remember the exact wording) was responsible for infecting him.
??? :o
I wonder if the "waaa?" I was thinking showed. :laugh:
Now that's interesting indeed...
And probably bullshit. It's just acid, right?
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 12, 2017, 10:23:53 AM
I wonder if the "waaa?" I was thinking showed. :laugh:
Lol some of these actors clearly have little idea of the bigger picture of what they work on. At least he gave a good performance and collected his paycheque. Even fassbender in some of his interviews sounds like he's struggling to make up shit as he goes along
Quote from: 900SL on May 12, 2017, 07:05:07 AM
Quote from: Kimo on May 12, 2017, 05:25:37 AM
I'm surprised by some of the hate for Covenant in this thread. Covenant had its problems but overall its a half decent Alien/Prometheus flix... Look on the bright side kids? Think of the worst case scenario? We could all be ultimate Terminator Fans and live and breath Terminator 24/7 and all we have had in the last 20years is Terminator 3, Sarah Conner Chronicles, Salvation and that God awful Terminator genisys to cry over and moan about. Just think of them poor bastards. ;D
The only way to get the films you want is to reject those that regard you as a mindless consumer of junk. Unless, of course, you are a mindless consumer of junk, in which case you'll be delighted.
Or the studio's need to stop milking films and dumbing down on ratings.
Btw for the person who said what about the AVP films being shit? Well yah the are bad films but for me they are not set in the same universe as Alien. Prometheus and Covenant are in the same universe.
Why did Mother
Spoiler
open colonists' cryosleep quarters for David at the end of the movie? Walter was Covenant's only synthetic not David. No security protocol? She even calls him David but it the final log Walter uses his real name which is a signal for Mother that something's wrong. Confusing.
I got the impression it was all pre planned by Weyland, Walter gave off the feeling that he knew all along what was going down.
Saw the film last night with my brother and I'm going to see it again tonight. I absolutely loved this film. The characters, the location, the alien, the gore and double fassbender is always a win. When David calls Walter "sport" I laughed.
I was smiling and on the edge of my seat the whole time.
Some genuinely creepy moments aswell, when rosenthal turns round to see the neomorph standing their looking down at her breathing like a sex pest I though was disturbing.
And the scene with fassbender and Daniels at the cryo pod at the end, even though obvious from a mile away blew me away.
I can see why some people don't like this film but I can see why some love it too.
I loved it. I though Billy Crudup was great also.
And exploring the crashed derilict and finding the Prometheus space suit gave me goose bumps. I don't normally gush like this over films and much as I love the original quadrilogy I'm happy and excited for a fresh direction with the franchise and I think this gives us that. This film also really compliments Prometheus which I also love.
There's so much more I could say but I won't spoil it for anyone.
Bar some minor elements I thought were a bit suspect the film was everything I hoped it would be.
I give the film a 9.5 out of 10
Quote from: Ingwar on May 12, 2017, 10:48:59 AMWhy did Mother
Spoiler
open colonists' cryosleep quarters for David at the end of the movie? Walter was Covenant's only synthetic not David. No security protocol? She even calls him David but it the final log Walter uses his real name which is a signal for Mother that something's wrong. Confusing.[/spoiler
Spoiler
I figured he simply accessed Mother by assuming David's personality before entering himself as a valid crewmember.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 12, 2017, 11:03:52 AM
Quote from: Ingwar on May 12, 2017, 10:48:59 AMWhy did Mother
Spoiler
open colonists' cryosleep quarters for David at the end of the movie? Walter was Covenant's only synthetic not David. No security protocol? She even calls him David but it the final log Walter uses his real name which is a signal for Mother that something's wrong. Confusing.[/spoiler
Spoiler
I figured he simply accessed Mother by assuming David's personality before entering himself as a valid crewmember.
I have yet to see the movie but could it be possible that David
Spoiler
somehow uploaded himself into Walters body? I mean, really an AI's mind would be nothing but a software package installed within the AI synthetic persons hardware (their body)
Quote from: gantarat on May 12, 2017, 08:35:42 AM
Alien Blomkamp's concept art
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeS30Vq7l.jpg&hash=20014e40e26687a72c1dc77080a11d56828ca276)
Why are they wearing benq projectors on their heads? Are the Aliens going to play 'Hangover 2' to the terrified populace?
2.00PM today, can't wait. :)
Quote from: cucuchu on May 12, 2017, 11:11:32 AMI have yet to see the movie but could it be possible that David Spoiler
somehow uploaded himself into Walters body? I mean, really an AI's mind would be nothing but a software package installed within the AI synthetic persons hardware (their body)
The film never shows us exactly what happens but I guess that's a possibility.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 12, 2017, 11:03:52 AM
Quote from: Ingwar on May 12, 2017, 10:48:59 AMWhy did Mother
Spoiler
open colonists' cryosleep quarters for David at the end of the movie? Walter was Covenant's only synthetic not David. No security protocol? She even calls him David but it the final log Walter uses his real name which is a signal for Mother that something's wrong. Confusing.[/spoiler
Spoiler
I figured he simply accessed Mother by assuming David's personality before entering himself as a valid crewmember.
Spoiler
I didn't get that impression. There was serious emphasis put on what David says to MUTHR 'special command override David xxxx' like it was a long established code. Most Likely interp = weyland granted him special executive powers (in aid of the search for a way to prolong weylands life) that have simply been overlooked and not rescinded since the Prometheus mission. Or it is part of a grander, longer term conspiracy we are yet to dwell into
Quote from: cucuchu on May 12, 2017, 11:11:32 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 12, 2017, 11:03:52 AM
Quote from: Ingwar on May 12, 2017, 10:48:59 AMWhy did Mother
Spoiler
open colonists' cryosleep quarters for David at the end of the movie? Walter was Covenant's only synthetic not David. No security protocol? She even calls him David but it the final log Walter uses his real name which is a signal for Mother that something's wrong. Confusing.[/spoiler
Spoiler
I figured he simply accessed Mother by assuming David's personality before entering himself as a valid crewmember.
I have yet to see the movie but could it be possible that David Spoiler
somehow uploaded himself into Walters body? I mean, really an AI's mind would be nothing but a software package installed within the AI synthetic persons hardware (their body)
No. You'll realize why when you see it.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 12, 2017, 11:53:04 AM
Quote from: cucuchu on May 12, 2017, 11:11:32 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 12, 2017, 11:03:52 AM
Quote from: Ingwar on May 12, 2017, 10:48:59 AMWhy did Mother
Spoiler
open colonists' cryosleep quarters for David at the end of the movie? Walter was Covenant's only synthetic not David. No security protocol? She even calls him David but it the final log Walter uses his real name which is a signal for Mother that something's wrong. Confusing.[/spoiler
Spoiler
I figured he simply accessed Mother by assuming David's personality before entering himself as a valid crewmember.
I have yet to see the movie but could it be possible that David Spoiler
somehow uploaded himself into Walters body? I mean, really an AI's mind would be nothing but a software package installed within the AI synthetic persons hardware (their body)
No. You'll realize why when you see it.
Spoiler
It was just a simple switcheroo, right? David performed some sort of command over-ride and MU-TH-UR acknowledged him as David.
The scene where David bombs the Engineers is a personification of what Ridley Scott has just done to the franchise. People were right, it wasn't Engineers down there after all. It was us, and Jim Cameron.
The film itself wasn't bad but the lore fan in me is dead.
Im starting to think Alien Resurrection it´s better Alien movie than Covenant.
Studio Adi must return please....
Quote from: John Doe on May 12, 2017, 12:37:15 PM
Im starting to think Alien Resurrection it´s better Alien movie than Covenant.
Studio Adi must return please....
Their designs were terrible, to be honest. The practical aliens for Covenant look great, the problem is that they've been painted over with CGI.
Quote from: reecebomb on May 11, 2017, 10:09:47 PM
Just got back from the IMAX cinema. I'm a bit tired now but i'll write down some of the thought this film inflicted on me, i'm sure there's a lot that i forgot to add. I know i've had a negative attitude towards the film since the first images and clips started to appear but i still didn't believe it would be that far removed from the real Alien films and even Prometheus. So in a way i'm not very upset because it quite easy for me to dismiss it as another non/canon separate fiction a la tha AVP movies. It felt more like a bizarre nightmare that Shaw would see the first night the juggernaut left the LV-223, this is the only possible way i could believe it would take place in the same universe. This is a fairy tale, a fantasy, a genre that i'm also very fond of, but the original movies at least tried to be as realistic as possible (as much as sci-fi space creature feature could be). As i've said before, Alien feels like a documentary next to this.
As a an Alien film i probably hate it, too soon to say. But imaging it being as a non Alien film it's still deeply flawed yet the Fassbenders perfomance makes it interesting in places that certainly is a welcome diversion from the usual Marvel, F&F and other blockbusters.
Here's my ratings for different categories (mostly viewed from a biased fans perspective):
1. Screenplay and story - 3/10
If you thought that the Prometheus characters behaviour was a bit suspect, then multiply it with 2 and you get this. And it's just not Oram, it would take too much time to list all of the problems.
I think the script is also responsible for serious pacing issues, lack of plausibility and other problems, like not being scary at all.
And last but not least there's the controversial revealing of Alien Origins and engineers fate + Shaw and the changes to the aliens lifecycle. I was open to see if Ridley could sell me these ideas, but you already know the answer. On other hand, when David appeared, the b-movie esque atmosphere was oddly captivating, he did some strange unconvetional things, which i found amusing to witness. That said the creationism etc is right on the nose, all the sublety was flown out of the airlock. It fails both as an Prometheus sequel and Alien prequel.
2. Sound - 7/10 Functional, but nothing stood out as something that would emphasize atmosphere (think the sounds in Nostromo before the crew wakes up). The neomorph sound like clickers from The Last of US.
3. Visuals - 6/10 This is perhaps one of the most generic looking films Ridley has ever made, which was really suprising. Don't get me wrong, it looked good, but nothing stood out as being very memorable or awe inspiring. It doesn't have it's own identity. I liked the practical sets of the spaceship, but the lightning and the camerawork was a bit weak tbh. The creature cgi was inconsistent, sometimes great and sometimes not very good but always there. I just rewatched Chappie and the droid in that looked more believable than the creatures in A:C. So in that regard, i don't think the cgi here is the best the technology could currently offer, it also wasn't terrible. Holding back on the cgi and using practical fx as much as possible would have helped immensly. Neomorphs looked a bit more real then the protomorph. Overall Prometheus is visually much more memorable and expensive looking, although at least A:C didn't have Guy Pearce with that ridiculous makeup.
4. Actors - 7/10 I think the poor characters of the film were not the fault of the actors, they did what they could with the material. Many seem to agree that Fassy is excellent as David. Though i would have certainly changed a few of the actors, for example i didn't like the pair of Jussie Smollet and Callie Hernadez the same way i didn't like Holloway.
5. Music - 4/10 the only music i remember that was there besides the reworked classic Alien music + the main theme of Prometheus, was the sappy piano daytime tv show music during the sadder moments and Spoiler
wtf was with the music when the xenomorph bursted, was it supposed to be humorous?
Overall - as Alien fan this gets a 4/10 from me, as it's own thing id rate it with 6.
You see, it requires certain amount of finesse to make a proper A L I E N film, in that regards the Alien:Covenant failed miserably.
That said, I think Ridley could still pull it off if he has a strong script, The Martian was good. But i also sense that he is not that interested with the creature anymore, or hasn't been for some time. The main themes of this film suggest that he would have rather liked to direct the Blade Runner sequel.
And Hollywood, please stop with the prequel bs! It just doesn't work.
Here's my rankings:
Alien - 9 (used to be 10)
Aliens - 8.8
Alien 3 - 7.5
Alien: Resurrection -6 (I find it enjoyable even if it doesn't compare to the original trilogy but it does have it's moments)
Prometheus - 5 (Mostly for the first half of the movie)
Alien Covenant - 4 (after seen it only once)
Quote from: Evanus on May 12, 2017, 12:39:56 PM
Quote from: John Doe on May 12, 2017, 12:37:15 PM
Im starting to think Alien Resurrection it´s better Alien movie than Covenant.
Studio Adi must return please....
Their designs were terrible, to be honest. The practical aliens for Covenant look great, the problem is that they've been painted over with CGI.
A really bad CGI and design for this chocolate Alien.
It's not Alien. It's not Aliens. It's flawed....but I loved it for every ounce of batshit crazy it presented.
It's a couple of million dollars short of perfection, but I'll gladly watch this over and over again.
Saw it last night - my review:
A remake of Alien, shoehorning the Xeno into the film to grab the ££££.
Trying to acknowledge Prometheus, but stop those plot lines dead and move the franchise away from it.
Overall result, an ok film with an overall explanation for the origin of the Alien, that in my opinion makes them far less scary.
Quote from: John Doe on May 12, 2017, 12:37:15 PM
Im starting to think Alien Resurrection it´s better Alien movie than Covenant.
Studio Adi must return please....
A:R has better editing and pacing, more memorable charactrers, better cinematography, certainly better music and it has it's own identity. The cgi in Covenant has a lot more details, and the creature do more complex stuff, but the movement are as weightless as ever. At least they used lot's of practical effects in A:R. Both are very oddball movies. I remember really liking A:R when i was a kid, saw it like 4 times at the cinemas. Maybe i would have liked A:C too back then.
Quote from: USS-Sulaco on May 12, 2017, 11:40:10 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 12, 2017, 11:03:52 AM
Quote from: Ingwar on May 12, 2017, 10:48:59 AMWhy did Mother
Spoiler
open colonists' cryosleep quarters for David at the end of the movie? Walter was Covenant's only synthetic not David. No security protocol? She even calls him David but it the final log Walter uses his real name which is a signal for Mother that something's wrong. Confusing.[/spoiler
Spoiler
I figured he simply accessed Mother by assuming David's personality before entering himself as a valid crewmember.
Spoiler
I didn't get that impression. There was serious emphasis put on what David says to MUTHR 'special command override David xxxx' like it was a long established code. Most Likely interp = weyland granted him special executive powers (in aid of the search for a way to prolong weylands life) that have simply been overlooked and not rescinded since the Prometheus mission. Or it is part of a grander, longer term conspiracy we are yet to dwell into
I thought he said it was a new code for her to register.
Having sat on the film for several hours this morning I pretty much feel it's equal to Prometheus but for different reasons. It had what Prometheus lacked, yet it lacked what Prometheus had...
I'm probably more optimistic for my second viewing, but it's very disorientating during first watch.
I saw twice and the second was worst.
Quote from: SiL on May 12, 2017, 01:13:49 PM
Quote from: USS-Sulaco on May 12, 2017, 11:40:10 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 12, 2017, 11:03:52 AM
Quote from: Ingwar on May 12, 2017, 10:48:59 AMWhy did Mother
Spoiler
open colonists' cryosleep quarters for David at the end of the movie? Walter was Covenant's only synthetic not David. No security protocol? She even calls him David but it the final log Walter uses his real name which is a signal for Mother that something's wrong. Confusing.[/spoiler
Spoiler
I figured he simply accessed Mother by assuming David's personality before entering himself as a valid crewmember.
Spoiler
I didn't get that impression. There was serious emphasis put on what David says to MUTHR 'special command override David xxxx' like it was a long established code. Most Likely interp = weyland granted him special executive powers (in aid of the search for a way to prolong weylands life) that have simply been overlooked and not rescinded since the Prometheus mission. Or it is part of a grander, longer term conspiracy we are yet to dwell into
I thought he said it was a new code for her to register.
My interp of that was that it was new in its application to that specific ship (but still pre-existing in the greater Weyland sphere). So basically log this code it hasn't been used here yet but it means I'm in charge now and I can do whatever I please with this level of security clearance. And she acknowledged. Could be wrong though. Need to see it again.
I think that is it exactly.
It's good to see on here that most fans are either loving it or saying it's good. :)
Quote from: John Doe on May 12, 2017, 01:27:32 PM
I saw twice and the second was worst.
Is it more disorientating? I felt I had no time to even breathe with the pacing during first showing, will I have a similar feeling?
Spoilers
Well, chaps, I had the pleasure of seeing it last night at the preview. Since joining the online fandom, I am notoriously difficult to please... I hated AvP and Requiem, Predators was average and I didn't like Prometheus all that much. I thought Covenant was absolutely brilliant. I really struggled to find any faults with it. Perhaps because I hated Prometheus so much... well not hate - Prometheus is a well-made movie - but a terrible Alien prequel. Covenant just counters everything I didn't like with Prometheus which is why I think I enjoyed it a lot.
The creature stuff in Covenant is exactly what I wanted from Prometheus. Actual alien life-forms that were a precursor to the Xenomorphs from the Alien series. Not generic-looking crap that had minor characteristics borrowed from the life cycle. The neomorphs were fantastic, so ferocious and deadly. The backburster and introduction of the neomorph sequence will go down as the one of the best scenes I have ever seen in the franchise. So much tension and terror, the music was phenomenal. As somebody else said, so much gore - I am surprised they got away with so much to say it was a 15.
Now, the Xenomorphs... I know a lot of people have gripes with the life cycle but I don't mind it. The idea here is that they are David's genetic creations - they're not going to be exactly like the ones from the Alien series and I don't think it's ever implied that David is the sole creator of the Xenomorphs. It's just one strand he created through experimentation. I still subscribe to the view that the Engineers created them thousands of years ago as a weapon. Now, the Xenomorph's introduction... Yeah, I would have preferred a chestburster but it's not a dealbreaker that we get a miniature Xeno - afterall, we got something similar in Alien 3. What does piss me off is that the momentous sequence was ruined by David's loopy behaviour - putting his arms in the air and the Xeno doing the same... it seemed absolutely bizarre to me. I guess it's some kind of metaphor to David being the creator of them but it just came across as stupid on screen. The Xenomorphs thesmelves though were great - it was so nice seeing them back on screen. The CGI creatures... I don't mind so much with the Neomorphs but they did rely it on way too much with the Xenomorph. I'm not even sure there was any practical at all going on - some closeups of it kinda looked practical but I'm not sure. It's not a major issue though. The CGI elsewhere was top notch.
The cast... they were all great, never had any issues with any of them. I really need to see it again to digest all the different characters. I thought James Franco was going to have a bigger role than what he did. Felt that was kinda pointless having him in there. Noomi Rapace was another pointless addition - you couldn't even tell it was her in the holograms - I do wonder if they should have had the full prologue of Shaw and David in his flashback sequence. I am glad the Engineers were barely in this - Ridley Scott made the right call there. Get rid of them quickly and don't focus on them like they did in Prometheus. Seeing the flashback and seeing them wearing gowns gathered together... just took away from the mystery of them so good riddance. I actually think Prometheus should have shown the Engineers through just holograms instead of any live Engineers. Fassbender was great as Walter, it was nice seeing their different voices and actions. David, I feel, has just lost it - some of his behaviour in the film is crazy. The whole kissing Walter and Daniels... again just so bizarre. And the ending? Where the heck does the series go from there?
The pacing... as people have said, the film moves at the speed of fright. A two hour film... didn't feel like two hours at all with the amount of action. I do feel it's just part of a much larger arc that we've not seen yet. It's not a big deal, the film could have done with more padding and more exposition. Maybe more time could have been spent getting to know the characters or exploring the planet before they are infected.
So summing up, don't watch this if you're expecting something akin to the Alien trilogy or a story as grande as Prometheus - this isn't what it's about. For me, Scott stripped out most of the mumbo jumbo about philosophy, creation and the Engineers, he upped the gore significantly and he brought back the Xenomorphs with lots of horrific creature action. He tied up some loose ends with the Engineers and brought in a new group of characters. I can forgive the story and the characterisation because the creature stuff was so good. Covenant is what Prometheus should have been. I can't really argue with that. I'll do a full review when the Blu-ray comes out - who knows, maybe when I've had time to digest it on the small screen, my rating may fall slightly. But for now, I'm giving it 9/10.
9/10
So it's a good thing they decided to just write out the engineers in an extremely lazy way... ::)
Quote from: Darkness on May 12, 2017, 02:35:34 PM
So summing up, don't watch this if you're expecting something akin to the Alien trilogy or a story as grande as Prometheus - this isn't what it's about. For me, Scott stripped out most of the mumbo jumbo about philosophy, creation and the Engineers, he upped the gore significantly and he brought back the Xenomorphs with lots of horrific creature action.
9/10
First, really good review, thank you for giving some real thought to it. This part really disappoints me though. I could not care less about the Alien itself after the first movie. Deaths for carnage's sake are boring and you could just watch saw if that's your thing.
The questions Prometheus brought up (but never once bothered to answer... or simply forgot they brought them up) were the real hook for me. I thought we were going to get an interesting/stimulating revitalization of the franchise instead of another bug running around killing people in corridors while they make bad life choices.
Dreadful, just dreadful.
Every single character in the movie deserves to die. Seriously, they are just so dumb. You wouldn't trust this lot to deliver a pizza, never mind 2,000 colonists. One by one, and over and over again, they do dumb stuff for no logical reason other than to get themselves killed. You would have thought that the first death might have triggered some basic sense of self preservation. But oh no, not this lot.
While none of the characters / performances sunk to Logan Marshall-Green levels of bad, there was little to get excited about. Danny McBride brought some much needed charisma, while Billy Crudup and Demián Bichir weren't bad, the rest we just so incredibly bland.
Equally as poor and disappointing as Prometheus, for pretty much the same reasons.
Quote from: Darkness on May 12, 2017, 02:35:34 PM
Spoilers
Well, chaps, I had the pleasure of seeing it last night at the preview. Since joining the online fandom, I am notoriously difficult to please... I hated AvP and Requiem, Predators was average and I didn't like Prometheus all that much. I thought Covenant was absolutely brilliant. I really struggled to find any faults with it. Perhaps because I hated Prometheus so much... well not hate - Prometheus is a well-made movie - but a terrible Alien prequel. Covenant just counters everything I didn't like with Prometheus which is why I think I enjoyed it a lot.
The creature stuff in Covenant is exactly what I wanted from Prometheus. Actual alien life-forms that were a precursor to the Xenomorphs from the Alien series. Not generic-looking crap that had minor characteristics borrowed from the life cycle. The neomorphs were fantastic, so ferocious and deadly. The backburster and introduction of the neomorph sequence will go down as the one of the best scenes I have ever seen in the franchise. So much tension and terror, the music was phenomenal. As somebody else said, so much gore - I am surprised they got away with so much to say it was a 15.
Now, the Xenomorphs... I know a lot of people have gripes with the life cycle but I don't mind it. The idea here is that they are David's genetic creations - they're not going to be exactly like the ones from the Alien series and I don't think it's ever implied that David is the sole creator of the Xenomorphs. It's just one strand he created through experimentation. I still subscribe to the view that the Engineers created them thousands of years ago as a weapon. Now, the Xenomorph's introduction... Yeah, I would have preferred a chestburster but it's not a dealbreaker that we get a miniature Xeno - afterall, we got something similar in Alien 3. What does piss me off is that the momentous sequence was ruined by David's loopy behaviour - putting his arms in the air and the Xeno doing the same... it seemed absolutely bizarre to me. I guess it's some kind of metaphor to David being the creator of them but it just came across as stupid on screen. The Xenomorphs thesmelves though were great - it was so nice seeing them back on screen. The CGI creatures... I don't mind so much with the Neomorphs but they did rely it on way too much with the Xenomorph. I'm not even sure there was any practical at all going on - some closeups of it kinda looked practical but I'm not sure. It's not a major issue though. The CGI elsewhere was top notch.
The cast... they were all great, never had any issues with any of them. I really need to see it again to digest all the different characters. I thought James Franco was going to have a bigger role than what he did. Felt that was kinda pointless having him in there. Noomi Rapace was another pointless addition - you couldn't even tell it was her in the holograms - I do wonder if they should have had the full prologue of Shaw and David in his flashback sequence. I am glad the Engineers were barely in this - Ridley Scott made the right call there. Get rid of them quickly and don't focus on them like they did in Prometheus. Seeing the flashback and seeing them wearing gowns gathered together... just took away from the mystery of them so good riddance. I actually think Prometheus should have shown the Engineers through just holograms instead of any live Engineers. Fassbender was great as Walter, it was nice seeing their different voices and actions. David, I feel, has just lost it - some of his behaviour in the film is crazy. The whole kissing Walter and Daniels... again just so bizarre. And the ending? Where the heck does the series go from there?
The pacing... as people have said, the film moves at the speed of fright. A two hour film... didn't feel like two hours at all with the amount of action. I do feel it's just part of a much larger arc that we've not seen yet. It's not a big deal, the film could have done with more padding and more exposition. Maybe more time could have been spent getting to know the characters or exploring the planet before they are infected.
So summing up, don't watch this if you're expecting something akin to the Alien trilogy or a story as grande as Prometheus - this isn't what it's about. For me, Scott stripped out most of the mumbo jumbo about philosophy, creation and the Engineers, he upped the gore significantly and he brought back the Xenomorphs with lots of horrific creature action. He tied up some loose ends with the Engineers and brought in a new group of characters. I can forgive the story and the characterisation because the creature stuff was so good. Covenant is what Prometheus should have been. I can't really argue with that. I'll do a full review when the Blu-ray comes out - who knows, maybe when I've had time to digest it on the small screen, my rating may fall slightly. But for now, I'm giving it 9/10.
9/10
Glad you enjoyed it and I am pretty much in the same camp as you in regards to Prometheus. Very much looking forward to Covenant next week and optimistic that I can look past the faults that some others have found.
One thing...you are the third person I have seen referencing the Xeno bursting from Oram and the hands in the air. In my mind, I am thinking of it in a cheesy way and its completely out of place. Is the Xeno stretching or something and David mimicking it? Or is he just waving his hands like an idiot and the Xeno copying him? I don't really understand the context I suppose. It sounds terrible.
Quote from: cucuchu on May 12, 2017, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: Darkness on May 12, 2017, 02:35:34 PM
Spoilers
Well, chaps, I had the pleasure of seeing it last night at the preview. Since joining the online fandom, I am notoriously difficult to please... I hated AvP and Requiem, Predators was average and I didn't like Prometheus all that much. I thought Covenant was absolutely brilliant. I really struggled to find any faults with it. Perhaps because I hated Prometheus so much... well not hate - Prometheus is a well-made movie - but a terrible Alien prequel. Covenant just counters everything I didn't like with Prometheus which is why I think I enjoyed it a lot.
The creature stuff in Covenant is exactly what I wanted from Prometheus. Actual alien life-forms that were a precursor to the Xenomorphs from the Alien series. Not generic-looking crap that had minor characteristics borrowed from the life cycle. The neomorphs were fantastic, so ferocious and deadly. The backburster and introduction of the neomorph sequence will go down as the one of the best scenes I have ever seen in the franchise. So much tension and terror, the music was phenomenal. As somebody else said, so much gore - I am surprised they got away with so much to say it was a 15.
Now, the Xenomorphs... I know a lot of people have gripes with the life cycle but I don't mind it. The idea here is that they are David's genetic creations - they're not going to be exactly like the ones from the Alien series and I don't think it's ever implied that David is the sole creator of the Xenomorphs. It's just one strand he created through experimentation. I still subscribe to the view that the Engineers created them thousands of years ago as a weapon. Now, the Xenomorph's introduction... Yeah, I would have preferred a chestburster but it's not a dealbreaker that we get a miniature Xeno - afterall, we got something similar in Alien 3. What does piss me off is that the momentous sequence was ruined by David's loopy behaviour - putting his arms in the air and the Xeno doing the same... it seemed absolutely bizarre to me. I guess it's some kind of metaphor to David being the creator of them but it just came across as stupid on screen. The Xenomorphs thesmelves though were great - it was so nice seeing them back on screen. The CGI creatures... I don't mind so much with the Neomorphs but they did rely it on way too much with the Xenomorph. I'm not even sure there was any practical at all going on - some closeups of it kinda looked practical but I'm not sure. It's not a major issue though. The CGI elsewhere was top notch.
The cast... they were all great, never had any issues with any of them. I really need to see it again to digest all the different characters. I thought James Franco was going to have a bigger role than what he did. Felt that was kinda pointless having him in there. Noomi Rapace was another pointless addition - you couldn't even tell it was her in the holograms - I do wonder if they should have had the full prologue of Shaw and David in his flashback sequence. I am glad the Engineers were barely in this - Ridley Scott made the right call there. Get rid of them quickly and don't focus on them like they did in Prometheus. Seeing the flashback and seeing them wearing gowns gathered together... just took away from the mystery of them so good riddance. I actually think Prometheus should have shown the Engineers through just holograms instead of any live Engineers. Fassbender was great as Walter, it was nice seeing their different voices and actions. David, I feel, has just lost it - some of his behaviour in the film is crazy. The whole kissing Walter and Daniels... again just so bizarre. And the ending? Where the heck does the series go from there?
The pacing... as people have said, the film moves at the speed of fright. A two hour film... didn't feel like two hours at all with the amount of action. I do feel it's just part of a much larger arc that we've not seen yet. It's not a big deal, the film could have done with more padding and more exposition. Maybe more time could have been spent getting to know the characters or exploring the planet before they are infected.
So summing up, don't watch this if you're expecting something akin to the Alien trilogy or a story as grande as Prometheus - this isn't what it's about. For me, Scott stripped out most of the mumbo jumbo about philosophy, creation and the Engineers, he upped the gore significantly and he brought back the Xenomorphs with lots of horrific creature action. He tied up some loose ends with the Engineers and brought in a new group of characters. I can forgive the story and the characterisation because the creature stuff was so good. Covenant is what Prometheus should have been. I can't really argue with that. I'll do a full review when the Blu-ray comes out - who knows, maybe when I've had time to digest it on the small screen, my rating may fall slightly. But for now, I'm giving it 9/10.
9/10
Glad you enjoyed it and I am pretty much in the same camp as you in regards to Prometheus. Very much looking forward to Covenant next week and optimistic that I can look past the faults that some others have found.
One thing...you are the third person I have seen referencing the Xeno bursting from Oram and the hands in the air. In my mind, I am thinking of it in a cheesy way and its completely out of place. Is the Xeno stretching or something and David mimicking it? Or is he just waving his hands like an idiot and the Xeno copying him? I don't really understand the context I suppose. It sounds terrible.
Spoiler
i believe David was mimicking, but it looked so daft. The oddly unfitting music was making it much worse and the crowd in the theatre burst out laughing. It really felt like a parody, not kidding.
A general trend I've noticed so far - people that enjoyed Prometheus tend to dislike Covenant. I'm in that boat.
Quote from: bacchus on May 12, 2017, 03:06:42 PM
A general trend I've noticed so far - people that enjoyed Prometheus tend to dislike Covenant. I'm in that boat.
I hope I'm not. :(
But yeah, I'm afraid I will be. What I've heard so far doesn't sound very encouraging...
Quote from: reecebomb on May 12, 2017, 03:03:48 PM
Quote from: cucuchu on May 12, 2017, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: Darkness on May 12, 2017, 02:35:34 PM
Spoilers
Well, chaps, I had the pleasure of seeing it last night at the preview. Since joining the online fandom, I am notoriously difficult to please... I hated AvP and Requiem, Predators was average and I didn't like Prometheus all that much. I thought Covenant was absolutely brilliant. I really struggled to find any faults with it. Perhaps because I hated Prometheus so much... well not hate - Prometheus is a well-made movie - but a terrible Alien prequel. Covenant just counters everything I didn't like with Prometheus which is why I think I enjoyed it a lot.
The creature stuff in Covenant is exactly what I wanted from Prometheus. Actual alien life-forms that were a precursor to the Xenomorphs from the Alien series. Not generic-looking crap that had minor characteristics borrowed from the life cycle. The neomorphs were fantastic, so ferocious and deadly. The backburster and introduction of the neomorph sequence will go down as the one of the best scenes I have ever seen in the franchise. So much tension and terror, the music was phenomenal. As somebody else said, so much gore - I am surprised they got away with so much to say it was a 15.
Now, the Xenomorphs... I know a lot of people have gripes with the life cycle but I don't mind it. The idea here is that they are David's genetic creations - they're not going to be exactly like the ones from the Alien series and I don't think it's ever implied that David is the sole creator of the Xenomorphs. It's just one strand he created through experimentation. I still subscribe to the view that the Engineers created them thousands of years ago as a weapon. Now, the Xenomorph's introduction... Yeah, I would have preferred a chestburster but it's not a dealbreaker that we get a miniature Xeno - afterall, we got something similar in Alien 3. What does piss me off is that the momentous sequence was ruined by David's loopy behaviour - putting his arms in the air and the Xeno doing the same... it seemed absolutely bizarre to me. I guess it's some kind of metaphor to David being the creator of them but it just came across as stupid on screen. The Xenomorphs thesmelves though were great - it was so nice seeing them back on screen. The CGI creatures... I don't mind so much with the Neomorphs but they did rely it on way too much with the Xenomorph. I'm not even sure there was any practical at all going on - some closeups of it kinda looked practical but I'm not sure. It's not a major issue though. The CGI elsewhere was top notch.
The cast... they were all great, never had any issues with any of them. I really need to see it again to digest all the different characters. I thought James Franco was going to have a bigger role than what he did. Felt that was kinda pointless having him in there. Noomi Rapace was another pointless addition - you couldn't even tell it was her in the holograms - I do wonder if they should have had the full prologue of Shaw and David in his flashback sequence. I am glad the Engineers were barely in this - Ridley Scott made the right call there. Get rid of them quickly and don't focus on them like they did in Prometheus. Seeing the flashback and seeing them wearing gowns gathered together... just took away from the mystery of them so good riddance. I actually think Prometheus should have shown the Engineers through just holograms instead of any live Engineers. Fassbender was great as Walter, it was nice seeing their different voices and actions. David, I feel, has just lost it - some of his behaviour in the film is crazy. The whole kissing Walter and Daniels... again just so bizarre. And the ending? Where the heck does the series go from there?
The pacing... as people have said, the film moves at the speed of fright. A two hour film... didn't feel like two hours at all with the amount of action. I do feel it's just part of a much larger arc that we've not seen yet. It's not a big deal, the film could have done with more padding and more exposition. Maybe more time could have been spent getting to know the characters or exploring the planet before they are infected.
So summing up, don't watch this if you're expecting something akin to the Alien trilogy or a story as grande as Prometheus - this isn't what it's about. For me, Scott stripped out most of the mumbo jumbo about philosophy, creation and the Engineers, he upped the gore significantly and he brought back the Xenomorphs with lots of horrific creature action. He tied up some loose ends with the Engineers and brought in a new group of characters. I can forgive the story and the characterisation because the creature stuff was so good. Covenant is what Prometheus should have been. I can't really argue with that. I'll do a full review when the Blu-ray comes out - who knows, maybe when I've had time to digest it on the small screen, my rating may fall slightly. But for now, I'm giving it 9/10.
9/10
Glad you enjoyed it and I am pretty much in the same camp as you in regards to Prometheus. Very much looking forward to Covenant next week and optimistic that I can look past the faults that some others have found.
One thing...you are the third person I have seen referencing the Xeno bursting from Oram and the hands in the air. In my mind, I am thinking of it in a cheesy way and its completely out of place. Is the Xeno stretching or something and David mimicking it? Or is he just waving his hands like an idiot and the Xeno copying him? I don't really understand the context I suppose. It sounds terrible.
Spoiler
i believe David was mimicking, but it looked so daft. The oddly unfitting music was making it much worse and the crowd in the theatre burst out laughing. It really felt like a parody, not kidding.
About the only positive thing I can extract from this is that it implies David has truly malfunctioned and lost his android mind....Just trying to understand it from the perspective of Ridley Scott.
It's really nice to see mostly positive reactions
Alien is pretty much a perfect film, there's no arguing. But Ridley is not the same director.
The positives in Covenant outweigh the negatives. Same goes for Prometheus. For me, that's enough to merit a very good movie. I know most here are pissed off with the negatives that they can't even find anything positive to redeem the experience for them, which is sad, but that's that. Sure, there's shit in there that's inexcusable, but at least it keeps everyone talking. ;)
People on my country (thai) complain this movies a lot (mostly story and script)
Nothing wrong,right ?
Quote from: Citadel on May 12, 2017, 03:27:38 PM
Alien is pretty much a perfect film, there's no arguing. But Ridley is not the same director.
The positives in Covenant outweigh the negatives. Same goes for Prometheus. For me, that's enough to merit a very good movie. I know most here are pissed off with the negatives that they can't even find anything positive to redeem the experience for them, which is sad, but that's that. Sure, there's shit in there that's inexcusable, but at least it keeps everyone talking. ;)
I have heard people mention that Covenant makes Prometheus better. In a similar fashion, do you think its possible for people that Awakening could expand/explain some elements of Covenant to make it better in retrospect?
Just got back. Loved most if it, couple of gripes with certain bits but I can see why they are there. ( and I liked Prometheus BTW)
Quote from: cucuchu on May 12, 2017, 03:58:21 PM
Quote from: Citadel on May 12, 2017, 03:27:38 PM
Alien is pretty much a perfect film, there's no arguing. But Ridley is not the same director.
The positives in Covenant outweigh the negatives. Same goes for Prometheus. For me, that's enough to merit a very good movie. I know most here are pissed off with the negatives that they can't even find anything positive to redeem the experience for them, which is sad, but that's that. Sure, there's shit in there that's inexcusable, but at least it keeps everyone talking. ;)
I have heard people mention that Covenant makes Prometheus better. In a similar fashion, do you think its possible for people that Awakening could expand/explain some elements of Covenant to make it better in retrospect?
Probably if the Awakening ends up being a worse film than Covenant. It doesn't make Prometheus any better, but since it's not any better perhaps it makes appreciate Prometheus more than before.
Hummm , i think, I didn't see that passage in the film?
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffr.web.img5.acsta.net%2Fnewsv7%2F16%2F06%2F10%2F11%2F07%2F413261.jpg&hash=8de0bea7116b2f29b5b166d2398114a29df7a94a)
>:(
Quote from: reecebomb on May 12, 2017, 04:13:45 PM
Quote from: cucuchu on May 12, 2017, 03:58:21 PM
Quote from: Citadel on May 12, 2017, 03:27:38 PM
Alien is pretty much a perfect film, there's no arguing. But Ridley is not the same director.
The positives in Covenant outweigh the negatives. Same goes for Prometheus. For me, that's enough to merit a very good movie. I know most here are pissed off with the negatives that they can't even find anything positive to redeem the experience for them, which is sad, but that's that. Sure, there's shit in there that's inexcusable, but at least it keeps everyone talking. ;)
I have heard people mention that Covenant makes Prometheus better. In a similar fashion, do you think its possible for people that Awakening could expand/explain some elements of Covenant to make it better in retrospect?
Probably if the Awakening ends up being a worse film than Covenant. It doesn't make Prometheus any better, but since it's not any better perhaps it makes appreciate Prometheus more than before.
I really do not think that is the intended method of making a prior film better ;)
Quote from: Stolen on May 12, 2017, 04:16:10 PM
Hummm , i think, I didn't see that passage in the film?
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffr.web.img5.acsta.net%2Fnewsv7%2F16%2F06%2F10%2F11%2F07%2F413261.jpg&hash=8de0bea7116b2f29b5b166d2398114a29df7a94a)
>:(
The pic could have been taken during takes. Waterson just having time out.
Quote from: Stolen on May 12, 2017, 04:16:10 PM
Hummm , i think, I didn't see that passage in the film?
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffr.web.img5.acsta.net%2Fnewsv7%2F16%2F06%2F10%2F11%2F07%2F413261.jpg&hash=8de0bea7116b2f29b5b166d2398114a29df7a94a)
>:(
This was a behind-the-scenes shot, wasn't it?
Nope, no plot discussions no (insert over-used word for etiquette; for people who haven't seen the film yet), no pics. No topics (plenty elsewhere here). Any potential for reveals have been categorised and forewarned in (brackets)
What I will say though this film is, IMO, the best futuristic based ALIEN movie since ALIEN (1979) and ALIENS (1986) and ALIEN-3 (1992).
My rating is this (hear me out)
ALIENS - 5/5 (The film that got me into the franchise. Amazing sci-fi horror mixed with excellent action, great future military design, hardware. Saw it VHS 1992)
ALIEN- 5/5 (Classic, surreal nightmare alien designs. Saw it on VHS 1992)
ALIEN 3- 3/5 (Rating for both Theatrical Cut I saw on a pirated camcorder blank VHS cassette. I was too young for the cinema aged just 10 years old at the time. And the Assembly Cut I caught on DVD 2008)
Prometheus I had high hopes for and I actually really wanted to see Ridley Scott's vision of a Xenomorph free film to the back-drop of a Chariots of the Gods/Ancient Aliens/Astronaut theory re-telling.
I know Scott likes classical history, art and warfare mixed with sci-fi so I anticipated that Prometheus might have told an expanded version of ALIEN (after rumours/backlash that it was a re-make to be Directed by Carl Rinsch) with design concepts that were too expensive to film first time around. Those familiar with a brillaint internet blog "Dissecting the Derelict" with scans of a more expansive ALIEN film 1979 or never repeated interviews with Ridley Scott will know what I'm talking about.
Despite being open minded I'd say Prometheus would be a 3/5 or 4/5 movie (heck maybe close to 5 stars).
Instead it was, IMO, a 1/5 film. Sorry Prometheus nothing to do with my love of Lager Beer or crushing empty beer cans on my forehead inbetween playing ALIENS-ARMAGEDDON Arcade with a novelty M41A Pulse Rifle light-gun.
Well just watched ALIEN-COVENANT and as per the title I feel the franchise has come home.
This movie takes the best design elements of ALIEN3, ALIENS AND ALIEN (along with continuing the Prometheus narrative) and just knocks it out of the park.
This movie was spectacular, inventive and showed great respect to everyone's interpretations of the ALIEN franchises (and that includes the AVP 1 & 2 movies too) whilst being a fresh take in its own right. I actually felt emotional before during and after the movie.
I booked tickets to an arthouse cinema that had a hand-drawn ALIEN-COVENANT chalk art poster done by a local artist.
I sat with a filtered coffee in a near empty cinema (sans 4 other people) with a very comfortable view.
From the opening sequence, titles right through to the ending I was hooked on this film.
Any worries about Ridley Scott $110 million "cheap" budget fear not. This movie is almost AVATAR levels of "wow factor" (minus pretentious LSD visions) and looks like it cost double that to make. Tales of deep space exploration, loneliness, optimism, old organic worlds, using top drawer genetics, hypersleep, colonisation and............you know what else. ;D
This movie expanded that colonisation mythos we have been waiting for since Hadley Hope in ALIENS. Rather than a CGI backdrop in Prometheus this is now front and centre.
I'd say I was (initially) bummed that Neill Blomkamp ALIEN 5 got canned given how I wanted (ok slight spoiler)
Spoiler
action with guns, Xenos and scenes akin to previous future installments of ALIEN through to ALIEN 3
But now we have that in COVENANT an ALIEN 5 would be more than a bonus.
Yes I understand some of the criticism that have stunted some review scores. There is a continuation of the Prometheus mythos and people said (even after Prometheus) "wait wouldn't this affect continuity in its design" or "wouldn't such events leave evidence that Weyland Corp colonists must have found when surveying habitable planets?". Can you imagine the suits the from board enquiry scene in ALIENS with a straight face?
But the reality is this is what made this recent movie feel fresh, exciting and unpredictable we were watching some things we hadn't encountered before, whilst being famaliar with others. I wouldn't say Ridley Scott is meddling too much with this latest release he is pleasing both fans of Prometheus and ALIEN.
I would add during the creative process of expanding the mythos of (major described spoiler)
Spoiler
prior human intervention in the Xenomorph cycle has an almost ALIEN-RESURRECTION vibe, but this is masterfully done in a very original well acted way
As for ALIEN 3 fans let me say I applaud Ridley Scott for (mild spoiler)
Spoiler
making homogeneous references to the unused design concepts from the early drafts of ALIEN 3. These were reported by AVP-GALAXY here 20th March 2017.
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/alien-movies/alien-covenant/genetic-memory-influencing-neomorphs/
Continuing my love of ALIEN 3 it was great to see (major described image spoiler)
Spoiler
dog like aliens in a cornfield ablaze stalking a monk like figure
Well I have seen many cinematic ALIEN films during their cinema releases but considering these started with ALIEN-RESURRECTION but ended with ALIENS VS PREDATOR 2- REQUIEM (and more controversely, IMO, Prometheus) Ridley only had to slightly increase the franchise somewhat.
Here its like a fresh new director took the helm determined to bring the franchise kicking and literally screaming back into action.
Well that Director is here and his name is, and always was, Ridley Scott.
Thank you for listening to the fans reaction last-time.
ALIEN- COVENANT......solid 4/5
in regards to the comments suggesting incredibly stupid characters .
if only the crew were smart enough to know going out into space gets you infected by a parisite and torn in half ........... 😒😒😒
since WHEN are movie characters above making stupid mistakes ?? yaknow , like real people ...........
Where is the fire coming from? Was that fire there in the film?
Better, entertainment-wise, than 'Prometheus'. The characters are a lot more relatable and, for the most part, don't do silly things (although, for some reason, loud screams and gunfire don't serve to attract anyone's attention, which was strange), which was a vast improvement.
It's basically what I predicted it would be: Interspersed with crowd-pleasing moments, but more of an inferior emulation of 'Alien'/'Aliens' than an equal to either of them. I put it more or less on a par with 'Alien 3' (which had some better stand-out acting moments, but 'Covenant' doesn't suffer from carbon copy victims and a magically teleporting egg).
For all that, however, it had a weird effect on me, in so far as it felt like it was serving as a bridge between 'Prometheus' and whichever story is coming next, rather than trying to be memorable in its own right. Like a filler episode of your favourite TV series, which happens to feature some nice set pieces, but which still feels like the filler episode it ultimately is. There are actually some intriguing things it reveals or hints at, but it doesn't spend time actually exploring many of them.
It also suffers from one of the major flaws of 'Alien 3': The actual creature is vicious, but is just running around and messily killing people. If you wanted to see something as memorably horrific as Dallas'/Brett's egg transformation sequences or as unsettling as Lambert's demise, it simply isn't here. There was one moment where I thought the latter was about to happen, but either it was edited out or Scott couldn't be bothered to try - which is a shame, because aspects like these were the very things which differentiated the Alien from most other 'movie monsters' out there. I remember an old video interview with Scott, many years ago, where he observed that the creature, "Isn't like a tiger, y'know? It doesn't just eat you..." Which was what made it so different from, say, the shark in 'Jaws'.
With that said, the attacks feel more or less right. They just lack the subversive nature of what made the original creatures so disturbing and iconic.
David 8, man... F**k's sake. :o I don't know what to think about this character. I preferred Walter a lot more. David 8's motivations were as stereotyped as they were illogical, unfortunately. I guess it works for the adventure he's a part of and Fassbender performs it well, but I like David 8 even less than I had in 'Prometheus' and don't understand the character's underlying motivation (which felt like it verged on cartoon-like, at times). It was nice to see some of what was alluded to between Ash and the creature, back in the original 'Alien' novelisation, though. That was a nice inclusion.
As a whole, it entertained me and I liked it as a film. I don't feel it was rushed in the editing process. Just wish that it had taken some time to explore certain things it presented the audience with.
Also, I think I've now solved the costume discrepency. In my report for Alien Day, I mentioned how Conor O'Suillivan, the Creatures Supervisor, had repeatedly mentioned that the main Alien didn't have a suit on set, yet some other reports had referred to one. Looking at the film, all the shots of the main Alien did, indeed, seem completely CGI. However, there was one shot of one of the other creatures which did look like a suit might have been involved. So, I now suspect this is what happened... A suit did exist, but not for the traditional Alien - for one of the other extraterrestrial horrors in the film.
This isn't to say that the Alien CGI was bad. It was decent. But you could instinctively discern it was CGI.
There were also some character moments which I wonder about. We know, for instance, that Sergeant Lope was meant to have been in a same-sex relationship, yet this isn't really alluded to in the film. It seems odd for this to have been alluded to in one of the viral features, yet not the actual film it was meant to be hyping. There was also meant to be a female character who, due to her other half still being in cryosleep, was meant to have a f**k-buddy who was in the security team. Yet, this detail was also nowhere to be found (none I remember of, anyway). And that stuff we kept reading in interviews, where Walter was meant to have trust issues with David 8, because of regarding the latter as dangerously in need of updates and software maintainance? Nowhere - which was a real shame, because I was interested in seeing that being played out in dialogue.
So, while I don't think the editing was too rushed, stuff like this does make me think some character development scenes might have been deleted.
It's either a 6/10 or 7/10. Not quite sure which. Rewatchable, but only up to a point. Serviceable, but didn't properly expand upon its own potential in ways it really needed to.
They used suits for the alien. You can see it in the behind the scenes clips.
Quote from: Evanus on May 12, 2017, 05:56:31 PM
They used suits for the alien. You can see it in the behind the scenes clips.
Which are almost completely absent from the finished film.
Quote from: Uncanny Antman on May 12, 2017, 05:58:56 PM
Quote from: Evanus on May 12, 2017, 05:56:31 PM
They used suits for the alien. You can see it in the behind the scenes clips.
Which are almost completely absent from the finished film.
Well, they painted them over with CGI, so yes. :(
I've just got back from seeing it and I feel traumatised, but not in the way I might have hoped. When I was reading people on here and elsewhere hating on it, I just thought that they were expecting too much and would never be happy etc. I really like Prometheus, so thought if covenant is like that but with aliens there is no way I will not like it if not love it. To paraphrase dr. Shaw, I was wrong, I was so wrong.
I cannot believe I am saying this but there was almost nothing to like in there, maybe I am over reacting having just come out but I just don't even know where to begin...
Firstly, I am not even too bothered about many of the things people are generally not liking, such as changes to the lore, pace of the film and so on. I don't think I would have ever guessed it was even a Ridley Scott film. People saying the characters are good, we never learn anything about any of them so we can root for them or even want to see them die, they were just faceless, superfluous fodder. I am also usually ok with cgi and can accept it if it's not too bad but most of it here was shockingly bad, jarring at points, more like a video game. Even Fassbender who I loved in Prometheus is terrible. In Prometheus he was much more nuanced, in this he comes over really hammy like a second rate hammer horror Frankenstein with some of the cheesiest dialogue I couldn't believe I was hearing. Some things I could barely believe what I was seeing, Kung fu robots? A part of me died as I watched. Xenomorph birth? Throw your hands in the air and wave em like you just don't care, I thought I was high. I can forgive some things but there were so many cringe worthy moments in it, typing this I still can't believe it, I've probably been rambling on and haven't read this post back so it probably makes no sense, much like covenant. I could seriously go on and on, maybe I'm just in shock, but I can't ever remember being this disappointed in a film, even though I went in keeping my expectations in check. I need to see it again in the vain hope I've made a terrible mistake, but I would say it is almost straight up garbage. I thought the guy who rated it under resurrection must need his head testing but he might be the sanest of all of us. I need a lie down.
Quote from: Vid on May 12, 2017, 06:00:53 PMEven Fassbender who I loved in Prometheus is terrible.
::)
You might want to sleep on it ;D
Quote from: Beardomorph on May 12, 2017, 06:09:59 PM
Quote from: Vid on May 12, 2017, 06:00:53 PMEven Fassbender who I loved in Prometheus is terrible.
::)
You might want to sleep on it ;D
Seriously, I thought he was awesome in Prometheus but did you not think he was just OTT and cheesy in this? Reall cringe worthy and hammy, perhaps it was just the dialogue, but some of the lines...
Quote from: Vid on May 12, 2017, 06:15:04 PM
Quote from: Beardomorph on May 12, 2017, 06:09:59 PM
Quote from: Vid on May 12, 2017, 06:00:53 PMEven Fassbender who I loved in Prometheus is terrible.
::)
You might want to sleep on it ;D
Seriously, I thought he was awesome in Prometheus but did you not think he was just OTT and cheesy in this? Reall cringe worthy and hammy, perhaps it was just the dialogue, but some of the lines...
Even reviewers destroying the film with their assessments are praising Michael Fassbender's performance in Covenant. This might be one of those cases where its just you. Nothing wrong with that either. We all have our preferences. But I would not make a blanket statement that Fassbender is terrible in this film.
I'm aware it might be a knee jerk reaction as I am shocked at myself for how I felt about it. I'll have to see it again I guess but on the one viewing I found his performance to be more subtle and insidious in Prometheus, it just felt too comic book caricature here. I truly hope I've got it all wrong and when I see it again I change my mind, but even if I suddenly think it's an Oscar winning bravura performance, I still don't think it would be anywhere near enough to elevate the rest. I hate myself for feeling this way about it! :(
Quote from: cucuchu
link=topic=57277.msg2212361#msg2212361 date=1494613351
Quote from: Vid on May 12, 2017, 06:15:04 PM
Quote from: Beardomorph on May 12, 2017, 06:09:59 PM
Quote from: Vid on May 12, 2017, 06:00:53 PMEven Fassbender who I loved in Prometheus is terrible.
::)
You might want to sleep on it ;D
Seriously, I thought he was awesome in Prometheus but did you not think he was just OTT and cheesy in this? Reall cringe worthy and hammy, perhaps it was just the dialogue, but some of the lines...
Even reviewers destroying the film with their assessments are praising Michael Fassbender's performance in Covenant. This might be one of those cases where its just you. Nothing wrong with that either. We all have our preferences. But I would not make a blanket statement that Fassbender is terrible in this film.
See, I even put the quote the wrong way around. My head is shot! :-\
Quote from: Vid on May 12, 2017, 06:00:53 PM
Even Fassbender who I loved in Prometheus is terrible. In Prometheus he was much more nuanced, in this he comes over really hammy like a second rate hammer horror Frankenstein with some of the cheesiest dialogue I couldn't believe I was hearing. Some things I could barely believe what I was seeing, I thought I was high.
This.
Although i really liked Fassbenders perfomance and he was the most memorable thing in the whole movie, he was very different from Prometheus as soon as they landed on the planet. As if Fassbender knew the dialogue written for him was so hammy and right on the nose so he embraced it with style and genuine fun. I think many other actors could not pull it off as well as he did. But not in a million years the character of David could be called realistic in any way. It did remind me so of the mad scientist in a number of 50s and early 70s sci-fi, the sets surrounding him added to the b-movie feel (while also reminding me of AvP 1, could be wrong). And like you i thought i was on drugs or something, but in the end i think this film works far better as a fantasy film than serious sci-fi. And for that reason im not bothered anymore about the alien origin thing and another inconsistensies, it's rather easy to dismiss it as a spin-off that takes place in another universe.
I wrote here ages ago that i will be very surprised if it tops even A:R, i really really wanted to be surprised.
Honestly, I really don't get the Fassbender knocking. He was one of the best things about the movie, again, as both Walter and David.
I can't really describe it, maybe as reecebomb said its more like fantasy. I know it's not supposed to be like a documentary, but the tone in some parts just seemed all wrong. Even though it's a Sci fi/horror film and some suspension of disbelief is required, the tone of the other films barring resurrection and the avp films (if you count them, I don't really) is that they are tonally serious whereas some of covenant came across as almost parody. I'm probably showing my puerile side but even the flute moment and the 'I'll do the fingering' was like a carry on film! just seemed really clunky and awkward. Walter literally points out David is losing his marbles and it really is like an OTT mad scientist. I love those type films as well but it just didn't seem to sit well for me in the context of an alien film. At least this alien film.
Quote from: Vid on May 12, 2017, 07:12:16 PM
I can't really describe it, maybe as reecebomb said its more like fantasy. I know it's not supposed to be like a documentary, but the tone in some parts just seemed all wrong. Even though it's a Sci fi/horror film and some suspension of disbelief is required, the tone of the other films barring resurrection and the avp films (if you count them, I don't really) is that they are tonally serious whereas some of covenant came across as almost parody. I'm probably showing my puerile side but even the flute moment and the 'I'll do the fingering' was like a carry on film! just seemed really clunky and awkward. Walter literally points out David is losing his marbles and it really is like an OTT mad scientist. I love those type films as well but it just didn't seem to sit well for me in the context of an alien film. At least this alien film.
Even next to Prometheus, Alien felt like a documentary, this one is even deeper in the fantasy realm. I can acknowledge it being Shaw's nightmare on the way to Paradise. As a separate thing, or a strange best of remix of all Alien films, it's oddly fascinating mess. I was certain that i won't see it twice right after i walked out of the cinema, but after sleeping on it i kinda want to see it again.
Quote from: Evanus on May 12, 2017, 05:56:31 PM
They used suits for the alien. You can see it in the behind the scenes clips.
I've seen an animatronic upper half (the thing with arms too thin for anyone to wear), but no suit. If one ever existed, it was completely replaced.
O'Sullivan was very adamant that the most they had on set were 3D-printed sections, with those mostly used to gauge lighting for total CGI replacement, anyway.
There was the impressive-sounding puppet rig, but they apaprently didn't have enough time to both design and construct it. I'm guessing this is why certain scenes which
should have used a practical suit (like walking around) were ultimately all CGI.
Quote from: Xenomorphine on May 12, 2017, 07:28:19 PM
Quote from: Evanus on May 12, 2017, 05:56:31 PM
They used suits for the alien. You can see it in the behind the scenes clips.
I've seen an animatronic upper half (the thing with arms too thin for anyone to wear), but no suit. If one ever existed, it was completely replaced.
O'Sullivan was very adamant that the most they had on set were 3D-printed sections, with those mostly used to gauge lighting for total CGI replacement, anyway.
There was the impressive-sounding puppet rig, but they apaprently didn't have enough time to both design and construct it. I'm guessing this is why certain scenes which should have used a practical suit (like walking around) were ultimately all CGI.
The problem with that is the HBO doc shows it being filmed (from this site's screen grabs):
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/HBO-Covenant-BTS-46-100x100.jpg)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/HBO-Covenant-BTS-48-100x100.jpg)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/HBO-Covenant-BTS-49-100x100.jpg)
Full size versions:
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/2017/05/11/watch-alien-covenant-hbo-first-look/
I know i'm being mr obvious here but the real reason the movie wasn't on par with the classics was due to poor writing and the poor writing resulted in poor editing. I believe Ridley could still do it if he had a half decent script. The Martian was quite good indeed unlike Prometheus. I don't blame Ridley, if he had equally strong writers the film could have been great. I sensed a lack of passion from him, even the visuals were not up to the standard of Ridleys previous work. But who could possibly make a bad script like this work, it was hopeless imo. Even the idea of
Spoiler
David inventing the xenomorph
could have been sold much better, i wasn't 100% against it prior seeing the film.
However i do blame the writers, who gave cause for concern at the moment the production started. And it has been very apparent over the years that bad writing + Ridley just doesn't work.
Quote from: Theecatindahat on May 12, 2017, 05:02:48 PM
Quote from: Stolen on May 12, 2017, 04:16:10 PM
Hummm , i think, I didn't see that passage in the film?
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffr.web.img5.acsta.net%2Fnewsv7%2F16%2F06%2F10%2F11%2F07%2F413261.jpg&hash=8de0bea7116b2f29b5b166d2398114a29df7a94a)
>:(
The pic could have been taken during takes. Waterson just having time out.
Maybe but there seems to be fire in the ship, the corridor is ransacked, isn't strange?
Maybe a big chase scene in the corridors?
I reckon the pacing issues and the CG also contribute.
A question: who thinks Covenant's script did it better than Prometheus?
I don't find the scenario bad, full of good things and good ideas.
The execution leaves much to be desired, the first part is too soft and the last
botched!
Quote from: Citadel on May 12, 2017, 07:51:11 PM
I reckon the pacing issues and the CG also contribute.
A question: who thinks Covenant's script did it better than Prometheus?
Both scripts had great premises. Prometheus expedition with the never before seen engineer (alive that is) could have been legendary. And Covenant could have worked way better if it didn't have aliens in it. Both scripts were very cluttered with unplausible turn of events, hammy dialogue and overall strange choices. It's pretty depressing to think about what these movies could have been. I blame the writers. They either were overthinking it or weren't thinking at all.
Long time lurker first time poster. Mainly wanted to post because I see a lot of fan reviews that say it's too much Prometheus or not enough Prometheus or that it spoils the Alien mythos, but what I really could have used before I went to see it was a review that specifically highlights how it works where Prometheus fails. So for you people who were desperate to know, as I was, here it is.
I enjoyed a number of things about Prometheus. David is a great character. A lot of it looks gorgeous. There are some interesting ideas. I didn't even mind that the xenos were absent, or that the scientists did stupid things. Alien is full of people doing stupid things.
No, my issue with Prometheus is that it's incredibly poorly structured, and the cast are almost uniformly terrible.
Things happen, but they have no real consequences. They don't follow through to a logical, imaginative end. Charlie is infected, but his infection never goes anywhere. He just looks mottled and then gets flamethrower-ed. Same with Fifield. He simply turns up, as if the writers realised they had to have a scary moment, kills a few people we've never seen before, then gets crushed. And an almost identical action structure happens at the end. The threat is announced (David says the engineer is coming), the threat arrives, the threat is removed in one simple stroke.
It's incredibly bad horror/action/thriller writing.
Covenant is just not on that same level. Nowhere close. It's like comparing a broken moped and a perfectly functioning Ferrari. You might not like the Ferrari. You might actually hate Ferraris! And that's totally cool and understandable. But still the fact remains that one is broken and the other isn't. Covenant isn't broken. Everything in it works, to lesser or greater degrees. Things progress logically. All of the potential of events actually pay off - some only satisfactorily, some spectacularly.
This film is 100% the work of a scriptwriter who knew what they were doing, and a director who mostly understood where he'd gone wrong with Prometheus.
And the same goes for the cast. It's absolutely true that we could use more of them. You don't get to know everyone very well. BUT...everyone is amazing compared to the Prometheus cast. They sell twice as much in half the time. Honestly, I felt more for Tennessee in one two second scene than I did for literally everyone in Prometheus. These characters are brought to life. They're not just going through the motions.
I think it says a lot that I did not give a single fig that
Spoiler
Shaw was killed off screen, but desperately do not want Daniels and Tennessee to be dead if there's a next one due to David's machinations.
Covenant isn't a perfect film by any means. I understand completely why some don't like it. But it is a very well done film, with characters you can enjoy and root for. And tbh, I loved it for that alone. To just have an Alien movie that has been thought through on that level, to get to see a film like that in the cinema at last...it was a joy to me in the same way that Prometheus was devastating. It's not bogged down with nonsense, it's not full of shoehorned ideas from some director or writer who thinks they know better.
It's a proper Alien movie for people who've been waiting for one since Aliens. Or at least, it's as close to that as anything has gotten since.
My order, for reference:
Aliens
Alien
Covenant
Alien 3
Resurrection
Prometheus (I would put Prometheus higher if it didn't have the construction issues I highlighted. I pretty much despise 3/4 but acknowledge that they hang together much better and are largely better acted).
That´s from the viral clip with Daniels like Ripley. You can see the fire:
There are other moments, like the scream of Rosenthal and Alien running on the corridor that were not in the final film. Maybe there is a different final for the film with all that from the Daniels clip.
Sad, so sad with this terrible movie.
Quote from: MightyViper on May 12, 2017, 08:13:34 PM
Things happen, but they have no real consequences. They don't follow through to a logical, imaginative end. Charlie is infected, but his infection never goes anywhere. He just looks mottled and then gets flamethrower-ed. Same with Fifield. He simply turns up, as if the writers realised they had to have a scary moment, kills a few people we've never seen before, then gets crushed. And an almost identical action structure happens at the end. The threat is announced (David says the engineer is coming), the threat arrives, the threat is removed in one simple stroke.
Consequences are part of why '
Alien' worked as well as it did. Each loss had a visceral feeling of aftermath (including Kane, who had a funeral, even if many viewers don't remember it happening). After Brett is abducted, we're immediately greeted with Parker, this big bear of a dude, just staring ahead of him in disbelief as he struggles to articulate the gravity of what he'd just witnessed from afar.
Even for Dallas, as fast as his passing was, we're left in those next crucial seconds, post-jump-scare, with that haunting screech of electric static as Lambert begins emotionally falling apart.
I think the problem, with the poor script, it´s that they did a rushed production and fast release.
Ridley works fast, he doesn´t take the necesary time for his movies.
I've just seen it as well... And I'm going to have to watch it a couple of times more before I have a definite opinion. It was rather different to what I had in mind. This is not really a movie about the Alien, nor the Alien is the 'bad guy'. It is all about David, and the alien is a secondary subplot and removing him from the script and making it just prometheus 2 wouldn't have changed the movie that much. But David's character was very interesting, everything that surrounded him is disturbing, the whole movie has a 'something is very wrong with this situation' feel to it, uneasy and dark. David's workshop was one of the most interesting set pieces of recent times, and I really think they should have made a VR experience out of that instead of the in utero thing. I really wanted to inspect all those drawings, all the props, everything. There was a lot of hidden Giger references in there, which I would have liked to be more prominent.
I loved the creatures, both old and new, but I would have liked to see more of the original Alien, specially more suspense and a slower pace on its scenes (it's true that the third act feels too rushed, I just wanted them to calm down and take their time to create tension). Some of the scenes were really magistral (loved all the chest-back-neck-bursters) and while you can nottice everything is CGI, it is not BAD CGI by any means. Really detailed and photorealistic CGI, there is just some uncanny valley with the movement I guess.
Not the movie I was expecting, but it definitely brings some new ideas to the Alien universe that I will have to digest before fully embracing it.
The ending is killer, it might be one of the best endings of the whole saga... far from the typical happy ending. It's kind of a cliffhanger (you can really see they have another sequel in mind) but I also feel that whatever you imagine that happens after will be more epic that what they might actually end up filming, so we¡ll see what happens in that regard.
Quote from: John Doe on May 12, 2017, 08:30:38 PM
I think the problem, with the poor script, it´s that they did a rushed production and fast release.
Ridley works fast, he doesn´t take the necesary time for his movies.
This too, but i'm not sure if it would have made the movie better. Perhaps better visuals and cgi with more dynamic editing suffered from this.
Quote from: John Doe on May 12, 2017, 08:14:35 PM
That´s from the viral clip with Daniels like Ripley. You can see the fire:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOV86D0wTaU
Thank you ! Strange because some shots are superb (0: 44sec)
Quote from: Xenomorphine on May 12, 2017, 08:24:32 PM
Quote from: MightyViper on May 12, 2017, 08:13:34 PM
Things happen, but they have no real consequences. They don't follow through to a logical, imaginative end. Charlie is infected, but his infection never goes anywhere. He just looks mottled and then gets flamethrower-ed. Same with Fifield. He simply turns up, as if the writers realised they had to have a scary moment, kills a few people we've never seen before, then gets crushed. And an almost identical action structure happens at the end. The threat is announced (David says the engineer is coming), the threat arrives, the threat is removed in one simple stroke.
Consequences are part of why 'Alien' worked as well as it did. Each loss had a visceral feeling of aftermath (including Kane, who had a funeral, even if many viewers don't remember it happening). After Brett is abducted, we're immediately greeted with Parker, this big bear of a dude, just staring ahead of him in disbelief as he struggles to articulate the gravity of what he'd just witnessed from afar.
Even for Dallas, as fast as his passing was, we're left in those next crucial seconds, post-jump-scare, with that haunting screech of electric static as Lambert begins emotionally falling apart.
I would completely agree with this. But it's not just the consequences to the characters and how other characters react that's an improvement over Prometheus. It's the consequences in terms of an action leading to a pay off. Both Alien and Aliens are stuffed to the gills with extremely satisfying, imaginative pay offs. Covenant doesn't have quite as many, but they're definitely present in a way they just weren't in Prometheus.
Quote from: Xenomorphine on May 12, 2017, 08:24:32 PM
Quote from: MightyViper on May 12, 2017, 08:13:34 PM
Things happen, but they have no real consequences. They don't follow through to a logical, imaginative end. Charlie is infected, but his infection never goes anywhere. He just looks mottled and then gets flamethrower-ed. Same with Fifield. He simply turns up, as if the writers realised they had to have a scary moment, kills a few people we've never seen before, then gets crushed. And an almost identical action structure happens at the end. The threat is announced (David says the engineer is coming), the threat arrives, the threat is removed in one simple stroke.
Consequences are part of why 'Alien' worked as well as it did. Each loss had a visceral feeling of aftermath (including Kane, who had a funeral, even if many viewers don't remember it happening). After Brett is abducted, we're immediately greeted with Parker, this big bear of a dude, just staring ahead of him in disbelief as he struggles to articulate the gravity of what he'd just witnessed from afar.
Even for Dallas, as fast as his passing was, we're left in those next crucial seconds, post-jump-scare, with that haunting screech of electric static as Lambert begins emotionally falling apart.
Spot on, I love those moments in Alien. They carry so much weight and that's all too rare in this kind of film.
Quote from: reecebomb on May 12, 2017, 08:38:36 PM
Quote from: John Doe on May 12, 2017, 08:30:38 PM
I think the problem, with the poor script, it´s that they did a rushed production and fast release.
Ridley works fast, he doesn´t take the necesary time for his movies.
This too, but i'm not sure if it would have made the movie better. Perhaps better visuals and cgi with more dynamic editing suffered from this.
I am looking forward to seeing the movie myself cause I am hearing so many conflicting reports about CGI. People saying its full CGI, others saying practical with digital overlay, some say it's done very well, others say its completely jarring and AvP bad. This goes for almost everything about the film actually. Even official reviews are all over the place. Its got me intrigued at the very least!
More enjoyable than Prometheus, but the direction taken with David is more disappointing than the Space Jockey is a giant human reveal.
The CGI was definitely sub standard in places. The face huggers were great though.
What I really struggled with was the cliche ridden plot. It was like a greatest hits of 80s slasher movies in the way that characters surrounded by death and destruction continued to do really dumb things in order to get themselves killed.
This was further hampered by the film's internal logic falling down. Just because the audience understands why people are suddenly spouting deadly little creatures, there is no logic in the characters just ignoring what's happening to them.
Then there are the gapping great big plot holes, just like in Prometheus, with the same lack of answers.
Wow I was not expecting Covenant to be as bad as it was. Wonderfully terrible! I can't quite believe that the guy that made Alien made this too. What the f**k happened??
Quote from: John Doe on May 12, 2017, 08:30:38 PM
I think the problem, with the poor script, it´s that they did a rushed production and fast release.
Ridley works fast, he doesn´t take the necesary time for his movies.
Funny you say that. During an interview posted today, he was talking about how he likes to move quickly to keep the energy alive. Maybe not for something like this in the future...
Just saw it. Super hokey creature cgi. Pretty goofy movie. I had zero expectations and it was entertaining but very forgettable. David is an evil f**k though.....interesting character.
Yeah so this series started on the wrong foot when they f**ked with the majesty and mystery and aesthetic of the space jockey. Mistakes just as detrimental to the series were made here too.
Just back from the movie. . .
Could have been better ALOT better !
Predictable / Recycled / Poor Alien CGI / Cliche / 70% disposable Crew with little bearing on the story as a whole or even enough time onscreen for meaningful dialogue to happen to make you care for them.
Left us not even hanging but a lack luster predictable ending, with no reason to go see the next because it tells you what the bulk of the plot will be before its even going to start.
I think pacing was due to editing, there are probably a few deleted scenes from the second and third act. Story wise the writing I felt was done well. The characters while most of them aren't properly introduced in the movie are still compelling enough. Although the androids completely steal the show, David seemingly more human than the humans (might be intentional.)
Hi everyone,
I'm a life-long diehard Alien lunatic and this is the first time I'm posting something here even though I've frequently visited this site when Prometheus was still in pre-production. I just love the debates here and how committed you people are towards your favourite franchises.
I just wanted to give you all my two cents for Alien: Covenant since I keep blabbering about it at home and my family is getting fed up with it. I'll try to avoid spoilers for those of you who haven't seen it yet.
First off, I cannot stress enough how pleased I am with Alien: Covenant! I saw it yesterday and left the theatre feeling quite positive overall, even though I still had some doubts.
Now that I slept on it I can put my hand on my heart and say that this imho is the best movie since Alien 3.
And That's saying a lot when you consider how much this franchise has veered off course during the past decade.
Before I get to the actual review I first want to say some things about Prometheus and why I didn't like it...at all.
I have never in my life looked forward so much to seeing a movie as I did with Prometheus. The countdown during the last few months before release seemed like years.
I took my entire family (well, the ones who actually wanted to see it) to the local cinema and when the credits eventually rolled I felt totally underwhelmed and frustrated.
Never, not even in my wildest dreams, would I have thought that it could have turned out the way it did. The premise about the untold story of the Space Jockey and expansion of the mythos sent shivers down my spine.
But I was blinded by the hype and honestly believed that this movie couldn't fail no matter what. I was so wrong...
Even though Prometheus looked terrific, it just couldn't be saved because the characters did the most retarded things ever and it was constant and non-stop (eg. trying to pet an alien snake even though it hissed violently, getting drunk after making
the most important discovery in the history of mankind, crew members having sex when others are stranded in the temple, crew members that have zero f**ks to give when a person walks in the room all covered in blood, helmet bongs etc.)
This movie was so full of itself and tackled such a variety of big ideas and important questions but answered none! All this and the fact that the Space Jockey in all his epicness was reduced to a bald smurf on steroids made me dislike and even hate it. It was so full of promise but missed all the important marks such as good story-telling, emotional characters we can relate to and worst of all: the connection to the
source material was superficial and felt like it was shoe-horned in. It clearly wanted to distantiate itself from 'the simple' Alien and be the better, more grandiose and thought-provoking film. Most of the Alien-fanbase raged and rightfully so!
I believe it wasn't because the movie lacked xenomorphs, but because the movie felt disjointed and rushed. The plot was all over the place
and wasn't going anywhere. Afterwards I wasn't surprised at all with a writer like Lindeloff on board. It seemed like Ridley and co didn't even have a finished script when the movie was halfway post-production.
With Alien: Covenant Scott played it safe but even though this is kind of true, he still pulled out all the stops and went straight for the jugular. This is without doubt the most brutal and savage Alien-film so far imo.
But before I get into why, I want to get the obvious things out of the way.
I'll start with the visuals and the score. Ridley stated once that he 'comes from the visual side of things' and credit must be given where it's due. AC looks stunning and is jaw-droppingly beautiful to say the least.The art-direction is spot on and something to admire. A lot of other directors can learn a thing or two from the man. The covenant ship looks very real and it's amazing what a director can achieve with a good combination of practical sets and cgi. Likewise, the planet the crew lands on is lush and vibrant and just breathes atmosphere.
It's a welcome change to the overall greyish tone of the barren rocks in the previous movies. So when it comes to visuals, Scott has earned his stripes once again. Every frame looks like a painting and everything is exactly where it needs to be. Imo this movie is a prime candidate for the oscar for 'best cinematography'.
I also think they did a fantastic job with the music and sound effects. I caught myself multiple times grinning at the screen feeling extremely satisfied. It's like an updated/reinvented version of the original scrore from Alien and it just filled me with nostalgia.
In summary, your eyes and ears will be in for a real treat if you're going to watch it.
As for the story and characters I'll be brief. Unlike Prometheus, Covenant's story is pretty simple and straight-forward and
it's not ashamed about it nor tries to hide what it essentially is: more of the same. You can easily sum it up in one sentence: People land on an alien planet where they all die. Period. But don't be fooled into thinking this is another dumb B-flick.
There are several intriguing scenes and thought-provoking dialogue scattered throughout the film. Especially the prologue is brilliant and a masterpiece.The first hour of this film is executed almost perfectly.
The movie slowly builds up so we get to spend some time with the characters and learn what their motivations and emotions are.
I believe this is crucial to making a good horror film so we actually care when one of the them meets his/her demise.
But when they eventually land, Scott doesn't waste any time and everything goes wrong very quickly.
When the crew finally gets to the engineer temple, I admit things get a little awkward at times but it's not like you will cringe in your seat. Some of the character's decisions are questionable, yes, but Ridley needs to move the plot along wherever he can, so all can be forgiven imo.
Sure the story has some minor flaws but hell, nearly all movies suffer in that department nowadays. In Covenant they are easily overlooked. Alas, those looking for answers to the questions raised in Prometheus, I have to disappoint. You won't find any of them here
or very few. At best we get a pretty solid explanation from David what the black goo actually is, but other than that, don't count on getting your answers. It'll be for the next movie...maybe.
Oh btw...spoiler-alert! Fassbender steals the show. Didn't see that one coming huh. lol
Now, on to the reason why I desperately wanted to see this movie. What about the creatures? The aliens? Did Ridley deliver? Short answer: hell yes! Being the most modern episode in the franchise with a veteran director at the helm, Covenant shows us the most frightening
and realistic Xenomorphs/neomorphs yet. The Alien stands up proudly in this film and looks more humanoid than ever. Ridley obviously wanted to avoid the cliche of Covenant being another mere bug hunt and imo he pulled it off.
The aliens portrayed in this movie are vicious and from the minute they are born, their purpose in life is to kill you ASAP without being even remotely sorry. They will stop at nothing and are not afraid to attack groups of enemies.
Scott has made of it a terrifying creature again, so to all who say that the beast is cooked, I choose to think otherwise. Also, because we already know what it looks like, Ridley shows it to us in all it's glory. Furthermore, the death-scenes look agonizing and gruesome. Honest to God, the backburster-scene is easily just as good or even surpasses the scene with John Hurt.
Also, because the victim for once isn't wearing any shirt ( I believe this is the first time ever for any Alien film) you can see the guy's muscles tear and bones break and what not. Gallons of blood are spilled and even though most of it was cgi, it was executed so perfectly that it felt more real than ever. It was truly shocking and disturbing to watch, exactly what I craved for in the past...10 years?
The mouthburster was cool as well, but the lighting was much darker so it was more difficult to see clearly.
I have to say: some creature designs were a bold choice, as others have stated.
But apart from that specific, almost comical scene (you'll know what I'm talking about when you go see it), there's very little to complain about.
That's pretty much all I wanted to say, so I hope I didn't bore you guys to death and you had fun reading this (lenghty) review. To sum it all up:
Alien: Covenant feels more like a remake of the original film than anything else, but at least it's a very good and solid one. To all Alien-fans out there I can say this:
Scott has finally given us what we had to miss for too long: A GOOD ALIEN-FILM! An updated/crisp take on the original and to be honest,
if Alien (1979) didn't exist and Covenant would tie into it better, this would without a doubt be the best episode in the series.
If I had to award it points, i'd give it 8.5 or 9/10. I will definitely go see it a second time and buy the blu-ray the moment it's released.
Sir Ridley Scott, you have restored my faith in you as a filmmaker and I hope you can keep up the excellent work.
Quote from: John Doe on May 12, 2017, 08:30:38 PM
I think the problem, with the poor script, it´s that they did a rushed production and fast release.
Ridley works fast, he doesn´t take the necesary time for his movies.
That's the issue. When you rush you make mistakes.
Going to see it Sunday. Really disappointed what am reading. Could tell the cgi was average from the trailer. But still gonna give them my money 😂
Quote from: DorkiDori on May 12, 2017, 11:10:05 PM
the title of this thread NEEDS to be changed! the US still hasnt had the movie released yet to the public! header is EXTREMELY spoilerish!
How would you change it?
It was fun, but overall just okay. I hope the mixed opinion this film has doesn't delay or outright stop the sequels Scott wants to make because there's still a lot of untapped potential. Maybe my opinion will change over time.
In short for the moment, pros: David was amazing, the Xenomorphs look beautiful and I loved the violence. The ending was especially terrifying, this tops Alien 3 in terms of being the darkest film in the series.
Cons: The charactization wasn't great unfortunately, why am I rooting for the Xenomorph? It's not scary if the cast isn't developed that well and I'm just waiting for some of them to die. The plot feels thin like this is just a teaser for later films. Why did they kill off
Spoiler
Shaw?
Did the actress not want to be in anymore films? I guess we need to wait longer to get those answers we asked after Prometheus. The pacing felt a bit off too.
Overall it felt like a by the numbers reboot of Alien, even though Prometheus sort of did that last time. I love the direction they're going with David, but these films need new ideas on what to do with the Xenomorphs and better characters.
Quote from: Cereal Killer on May 12, 2017, 11:25:54 PM
Going to see it Sunday. Really disappointed what am reading. Could tell the cgi was average from the trailer. But still gonna give them my money 😂
The bastards have their claws in us.
(Currently at professor-drunk stage)
My favourite part:
Walter promises Daniels he will speak with David and find our further information, he finds the Prometheus survivor in his chamber. Walter asks David if he can play this recorder-like instrument and Walter says he cannot. He doesn't have the technique.
The scene, for me, was a bit of a riff on Hamlet Act 3, Scene 2 in which Rosencrantz and Guildenstern seek out Hamlet to find out what exactly is going on. Hamlet, sensing their intentions, offers Guildenstern a recorder and asks him to play it.
HAMLET
I do not well understand that. Will you play upon this pipe?
GUILDENSTERN
My lord, I cannot.
HAMLET
I pray you.
GUILDENSTERN
Believe me, I cannot.
HAMLET
I do beseech you.
GUILDENSTERN
I know no touch of it, my lord.
HAMLET
It is as easy as lying. Govern these ventages with your fingers and thumb, give it breath with your mouth, and it will discourse most eloquent music. Look you, these are the stops.
Hamlet later says:
HAMLET
Why, look you now, how unworthy a thing you make of me! You would play upon me. You would seem to know my stops. You would pluck out the heart of my mystery. You would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass. And there is much music, excellent voice, in this little organ, yet cannot you make it speak? 'Sblood, do you think I am easier to be played on than a pipe? Call me what instrument you will, though you can fret me, yet you cannot play upon me.
There was certainly some of this in the scene. David sensed Walter's intentions and instead used to the Pipe to distract him, and flip the situation, so he was the one learning more information, and by playing the notes for him, David was the one attempting to control the other. This sneaky urge to control made the scenes between the two Synthetics reallly tense for me. The scene called back to the opening dialogue between Weyland and David as well. Lots of fun.
Hi
Saw it tonight.
Just a few things.
I felt it had been edited down,it's bloody in places but a lot of it was v quick esp the shower scene which was as out of place as we saw from the trailer,Birchir's death is offscreen,why???
The music was awful the Alien 79 cues were nice.
I really liked Waterston,Franco had 1 scene via mobile and a death sceneCrudup was a gr8 character but underdeveloped.
I disliked the temple setting.a bit A v P looking.
Liked the rescue by Tennesse and Upworth.
Fassbender is the master as suspected by all and it fits but looses that mythology.
The final scene is ill conceived.
The wheat field attack was a let down,too dark and quick,med bay was gr8 despite some ropey acting from Seimetz and Ejogo,Cartwright rules the fear game.
Cast was ok nothing great,we are not told they r couples,if u go in blind you'd never know.
My what a clean ship.
The ending was as others stated v rushed,there's an extended cut out there hopefully.
It is more of a Prometheus sequel.
7 out of 10.
1 other thing Rosenthal's death scene must have been cut down as we don't get that long scream we saw in the teaser and other trailers,we just see the alien/neomorph bear down on her,the shower scene is shot differently.
Pretty much loved it from start to finnish. As a review I posted else were (non-spoiler).
Score 10/10
To give this review I think it best to do it in comparison to Prometheus since its what most will judge this film against.
Over all Covenant makes far superior use of its run time then Prometheus did. While both had grand ideas and scope, Covenant dose not loose itself in them while Prometheus often allowed its themes to take the for front at the expense of the films narrative. Covenant is a story first and for most. Unlike Prometheus no shots or scenes feel wasted and the over all narrative flows much more smoothly. Also Covenant dose not have that sense missing story elements that it's predecessor did. However the story can be a bit fast paced and hectic in places.
We spend a far greater amount of time getting to know the characters and they seem for more realistic then their Prometheus counter parts. While not on pare with Alien and even Alien 3, Covenant allows us to get to know caste enough that you know most of them by sight and see them a people much like Aliens....and like Aliens your not going to get so know some of the caste as well as others if at all. All of the actors provide great or at least suitable performances with no real stand out weak points or contradictions. The real show stealer is once again Michael Fassbender, who's performance here eclipses his one in Prometheus.
The special effects for the film are easily equal and maybe a bit superior to those in Prometheus. I'm not a great judge of CGI but I personally didn't see any-problems.
The creatures of the film are truly amazing, beautiful and terrifying. This film explores a number of aspects to them, not just the one everyone's thinking of when they walk in.
The music is fantastic blend of both Alien and Prometheus's scores with some of its new music of its on.
For an over all tone Covenant has the most kinship with Prometheus however it also clearly displays its connection to Alien. In terms of spirit this film is very much in-keeping with the Alien franchise
On the whole this is a vast improvement over its predecessor and and a very welcome step in the right direction for the franchise. It easily stands alongside Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 for me and while it dose not fix Prometheus's flaws, Covenant gives Prometheus's ideas more value and allows them to be continued and developed in a superior film. Because of this Prometheus can now be a solid part of the franchise to,
After disliking it the first time and rating it 4/10, I'm going to watch it again tomorrow for a second opinion in IMAX. Really hoping it improves upon a second watch. Looking forward to the backburster scene again.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 10, 2017, 07:43:11 AM
Here's HuDaFuk's review -
QuoteOverall, I liked this more than Prometheus, but it had definite faults.
It was undeniably a3 more commercial, less ambitious movie than Prometheus, but I thought that ultimately worked in its favour. There were a few hints of some of the higher concepts of the kind explored in the previous film, chiefly in the scenes involving David, but on the whole it was a more straightforward film. More action-packed, more intense. I'm also happy to say it fixed one of my biggest criticisms from Prometheus - whereas the crew in that were terribly cardboard and uncharismatic, I'm pleased to say the characters in this immediately came across as more interesting and likeable to watch.
However - and this was my main problem - it was one of those movies that suffers quite badly from a case of deterioration; it seemed to get less impressive as it went along, culminating in a final act that I thought was, disappointingly, pretty weak. The Neomorph birth sequence, seen in the previews, was excellent and probably the best part of the movie. But towards the end, more and more things started happening that really disappointed me.
Spoiler
For instance, they once again messed with the details and timescale of the Alien reproductive cycle. Crudup's character is infected and gives birth in about ten minutes, whereas later in the film someone is impregnated after a Facehugger is in contact with them for no longer than a few seconds. Seriously, they're never even knocked unconscious before the thing is cut off them, and yet they're still infected. Also, for some reason the Chestburster is now a fully-formed, miniature version of the Alien, with arms, legs and head, rather than the slug-like design from the previous films.
Another issue I had was the big final twist. To say it was obvious is a huge understatement; I saw it coming about 20 minutes before the end of the film, and being so obvious, it was hard to get even slightly thrilled by it. It was just so blatantly telegraphed from the moment it was set up.
It's a shame most of the things I disliked were towards the back end of the movie, because it was a let down after the great opening acts and kinda soured the whole experience with a disappointing conclusion. As I said, the final act aboard the Covenant in particular was quite weak - it felt way too short and didn't portray the Alien in particularly good light. Still, overall it was an entertaining movie, and a definite step up from Prometheus. I've actually seen it twice now, and I enjoyed it more the second time around.
Oh, and as I was asked - I'd probably rank it fourth, after the first three but ahead of Resurrection and Prometheus 🙂 Might be a better-made film than Alien 3, but I have a soft spot for that.
And here's mine - http://www.avpgalaxy.net/alien-movies/alien-covenant/review/
In terms of ranking, for me it goes
Joint 1st Place - Alien/s/3
4th Place - Alien: Covenant
5th Place - Prometheus
Joint 6th Place - AvP & Alien: Resurrection
8th Place - AvP: Requiem
I went for 6.5 out of 10 for my review. I was struggling to settle between 6 or 7. I wanna watch it a few more times to really make my mind up.
Thank you for ranking the films.
It's a sad state of affairs that the Alien franchise has become so dire that some people are happily proclaiming Covenant as the fourth best Alien film as though that's some kind of victory. ;)
Quote from: reecebomb on May 12, 2017, 06:50:42 PM
Quote from: Vid on May 12, 2017, 06:00:53 PM
Even Fassbender who I loved in Prometheus is terrible. In Prometheus he was much more nuanced, in this he comes over really hammy like a second rate hammer horror Frankenstein with some of the cheesiest dialogue I couldn't believe I was hearing. Some things I could barely believe what I was seeing, I thought I was high.
This.
Although i really liked Fassbenders perfomance and he was the most memorable thing in the whole movie, he was very different from Prometheus as soon as they landed on the planet. As if Fassbender knew the dialogue written for him was so hammy and right on the nose so he embraced it with style and genuine fun. I think many other actors could not pull it off as well as he did. But not in a million years the character of David could be called realistic in any way.
That's the point. I think Vid is confusing the character with Fassbender's acting. By all accounts,David is a very campy character here,but I think that every review agrees that he pulls it off so well that even the most awkward and cheesy lines feel enjoyable and he manages to remain genuinely creepy,so not the caricature of a villain. Many reviews are singling out the David/Walter scenes and in many cases I don't even see people pointing out the more "hilarious" lines because,evidently,thanks to his acting,everything feels almost credible in that context. He also plays another -completely different- android who doesn't offer the same opportunities to show his range,but it's still a difficult and nuanced performance,not easy at all. Again,by all accounts,Walter is also perfectly played.
Having said that,I kind of hope they come back to a more nuanced and subtle characterization for David. If in this movie it still works in terms of tones and the whole David/Walter shtick,those exasperated personality traits risk to become self parody.
I will watch it in a few days,but so far the consensus seems that it's way less divisive than Prometheus. It plays like an entertaining Alien movie,familiar but enjoyable nonetheless. At least for the mainstream public that doesn't have specific expectations and the press that uses more objective creteria. Surprisingly,I saw a lot of five/four stars from French critics too.
Quote from: Uncanny Antman on May 13, 2017, 05:07:30 AM
It's a sad state of affairs that the Alien franchise has become so dire that some people are happily proclaiming Covenant as the fourth best Alien film as though that's some kind of victory. ;)
I don't think that's bad, considering the first 3 are classics.
Yeah, I don't see the problem either. Do people really expect an Alien sequel is going to come close to Ripley's story? It can still be a fine movie and I think ranking just after those is still a pretty good accomplishment.
I'll tell you this. Covenant is very very unexpected. Strong German Expressionism element. Very strong. Nosferatu, Frankenstein, Dracula overtones and a bit of Seventh Seal. And I'm f**king serious. I really liked the film. Not a masterpiece, but very bold in its differentness. And I really loved Crudup's performance.
Because of strong German Expressionism element that was beyond evident, I cannot agree with you guys. I really appreciated its differentness.
I'm looking forward to getting Covenant on Blu-Ray and seeing all the extra material
I certainly think there are elements that are beautifully strange/odd. In that regard the film has more in common with Alien 3.
I voted OK. I had to sleep on it overnight, before writing a review, so here it goes:
1st HALF OF MOVIE
All in all, I would say up until the 2nd infection/flute teaching scene, I was fully convinced this movie was going to rock my world.. and I couldn't wait for the movie to unfold. They'd learned a lot of lessons from Prometheus - there was time to get to know the characters, the space/science scenes all worked for me. I remember being confident and excited about the movie. Daniels coping with grieving by trying to "man up" and get on with her work tasks while everyone else was squabbling with Oram was perfect. Everything seemed to be going swimmingly.
I was prepared to overlook the not wearing hazmat suits thing when they arrived at the planet, thinking any moment after the infections, maybe in the first moments before or inside the citadel, someone would make the decision to retreat and suit up/quarantine.
My heart sank a little when the crew willingly offered up to David intel on their colonization mission. But to be fair, its understandable - David saved their lives and so at that point they trusted him.
The flute teaching scene was the last great moment because of the tension I felt. But then afterwards... everything started to get a bit silly - not always, but usually. Like two totally different movies had been welded together in the middle.
2nd HALF OF MOVIE (plain silly - all mindless slasher, with none of the suspense)
This is the bit I am most critical of - its all just silly. Blatantly obvious and predictable - even for a child. I was soooo over it before it had even played out. The main David's lair bit was all wrong and silly and made me wonder why bother having Shaw in the movie at all. I hated it - it belonged in "Event Horizon" and not in a suspenseful alien franchise movie of good caliber. I can't imagine any captain would follow David down into a dark cave after he has just admitted to being the mastermind to all the horror.
FINAL 20 MINS (some great ideas, but taken in the wrong direction)
The 2nd drop ship/Daniels/Xeno fight was great. Maybe a little bit longer/drawn out than it needed to be. I mean - how long does Tennesee need before he stops circling above ground level?
The final Xeno aboard the covenant battle was good action let down by a bad premise. Yes there was 1 facehugger loose in the lair. But somehow, all surviving crew members had not been "scanned" for infection by the state of the art med facilities with embryo storage on board. Really?
The final scenes with Daniels/David as Walter were ripe with tension, but the plot took the dumb ending of Daniels naively (she is the better decision maker of the crew AND was already previously attacked by David similar to Ripley and Ash) getting back into cryo without AT LEAST surprise awakening/faking sleep to secretly monitor David for a short while just to be sure.
And as for David vomiting up Facehugger embryos. No. Sorry. I can't. It reminded me of Men in Black galactic tentacles playing "marbles" with tiny planets like earth. Tacky - not clever.
WHAT WAS CUT THAT I SAW FOOTAGE OF?
- A longer battle with the facehuggers
- The red corridor/xeno scene
- Parts of the first prologue
STYLE, SUSPENSE AND GORE
Visually things were mostly good (except some ropey cgi and xenovision).
However, I had high hopes that the creature aesthetics would be shaped in a way that they could blend in with their environments (think Alien head camoflaged against industrial pipes). At least the final xeno should have been more strategic. But every creature behaved like some deranged, rabid, frantic dog, not so much strategic, but hell bent on killing anything, whether it was in its way or out of its way. Not exactly a perfect organism, so much as a monkey with a flickknife.
Which gets me to the gore/body count. I didn't find the decapitation or shower scene added anything. if you're gonna off a whole bunch of characters, you're better off allowing some suspense to build between each kill, rather than in quick succession.
I'm not against gore or violence in movies, especially Alien movies, but it has to be done cleverly. If M Night Shyamalan (or that kind of style) had collaborated with Ridley, this movie could have perhaps even knocked Alien off the top spot.
Let me be VERY CLEAR though. I complained about prometheus not having enough creatures. Having less creatures in covenant is NOT what I mean. The creatures could have had exactly the same screen time in Covenant - just executed differently. And this is where I would have to put the blame with Ridley. The script cannot be wholly blamed like with Prometheus. I am presuming the studio execs also tried to twist Ridley's arm e.g "oh, if you work with one of our cgi preferred partners, and put a little of this/that in the movie, we'll throw some more money at you" Those types of borderline corruption situations happen all the time in business. I know it only too well :-(
For me, an Alien franchise movie cannot work with 2 "permanent" villains. The stage isn't big enough to be shared. Its either the Alien is the permanent star, or David is.
The buzzword of AI was thrown around generously with Covenant, but true AI is software, not hardware. David should have died, and collective networked conscience should have been explored if you are going to tow the AI line.
WOULD A DVD DIRECTORS CUT HELP SALVAGE THINGS?
Yes, absolutely. You can't add what you don't have (acting scenes), but you can take away.
Shaving off some cgi here and there. Dispensing with the "rise up and bow to David" dodgy xeno burster effects.
And maybe adding any cut scenes to "space apart / slow down" the insanely rapid incubation and growth of creatures would go a looong way to give a more satisfactory alien franchise movie experience. Even some extracts of prologues etc...
I don't think the smart ending was to have David escape on the covenant. He should have died, but transmitted his computer conscience into muthur as his dying wish. Or been stranded on the covenant with no facehuggers/black goo/but plotting how to get back to the planet or intercepting another flying croissant.
Overall rating as a standalone film like event horizon = 8/10
Overall rating as a prequel that adds to / not takes away from Alien/s, and worthy of an Alien franchise film = 4/10
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 13, 2017, 05:18:48 AM
Quote from: Uncanny Antman on May 13, 2017, 05:07:30 AM
It's a sad state of affairs that the Alien franchise has become so dire that some people are happily proclaiming Covenant as the fourth best Alien film as though that's some kind of victory. ;)
I don't think that's bad, considering the first 3 are classics.
That's good enough for me and for most of us anyways. The first two films are unbeatable and Alien 3 is pretty good.
Quote from: motherfather on May 13, 2017, 06:51:01 AM
For me, an Alien franchise movie cannot work with 2 "permanent" villains. The stage isn't big enough to be shared. Its either the Alien is the permanent star, or David is.
Good review, but in particular I think you've hit the nail on the head right here, and had made me realise why this film didn't quite work for me. The Xeno needs to be the main and only villain.
With the emphasis on David for most of the film, it became the David show, and the aliens became a sideshow. The original Alien films (including 3 and even Resurrection) worked far, far better in creating horror and fear because we didn't know what our main "villain" (i.e. the Xeno) was up to for most of the films, whereas Covenant showed us far to much of it, and David pretty much gave a full commentary.
A successful Alien film needs to have the Xeno as the main antagonist.
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 13, 2017, 05:18:48 AM
Quote from: Uncanny Antman on May 13, 2017, 05:07:30 AM
It's a sad state of affairs that the Alien franchise has become so dire that some people are happily proclaiming Covenant as the fourth best Alien film as though that's some kind of victory. ;)
I don't think that's bad, considering the first 3 are classics.
It's not that it isn't as good as the first three that makes it sad, it's saying it as though it's some great thing. It's like arguing over whether
Terminator Salvation or
Terminator Genisys is the fourth best one.
Maybe I'll just agree to disagree by referring to
Alien Covenant as the third worst one. (Although for me it's second worst, but I'm willing to give a little. ;))
Quote from: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 08:00:55 AM
A successful Alien film needs to have the Xeno as the main antagonist.
I disagree. I think Prometheus could have been great if it didn't totally bork it on other levels. The lack of xeno wasn't a failing of that one.
A solid 7/10 for me on one viewing. I thought the first two thirds were really good, but as others have said, the home stretch is rushed, there's no tension built, and it just kind of fizzles out.
<spoiler>just testing spoiler tags</spoiler>
Just saw it again, and it holds up as a very good movie with a few flaws. I see three key issues, with one of them being something that only fans of the series will take umbrage with.
Spoiler
1. There needed to be something to address the choice to treat the planet in such a blasé fashion (i.e. no helmets, no consideration of potential pathogens). At least an atmosphere compositional scan, addressing surface conditions in general, something to add credibility. I understand the movie had to fit a lot in but it's an obvious thing people will complain about.
2. Oram having such a 180 degree change in attitude by trusting David and following him. You will lose a lot of audience here. You could still get Oram to be facehugged without such a lack of plausibility.
3. Fanboy issue: the playing with the lifecycle durations : gestation period, burster to adult growth time, look of the chest burster. To be fair it doesn't exactly spell out how much time has past, but it feels like it's not much. Also it is questionable how Lope is impregnated after such a short facehug given previous movies, but I'm assuming facehugger now transfers a black goo variant that is fast acting (?)
But if you can look past these issues (which i believe you should) this is a highly enjoyable movie, a worthy addition to the franchise, that's stands up to repeat viewings. The first half alone is worth sitting down for this movie. 8/10
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Having just came out of the theater, various things struck into my mind but definitely must highlight that I love what I believe is a representation of Giger through David. I was pro ancient creature or mother nature cleanser (still am to a degree) but now I don´t mind the idea of David the Alien creator as an homage by Ridley to the artist. I don´t know why I think this truly is the case.
Second, the hell...the Aliens looked MENACING AND DISTURBING. Tall, upright, more humanoid than ever. I was really proud of having elegance in these creatures once more.
And last, am I alone in thinking that the starting scene was just gold? Gold dialogue, gold acting, gold pacing. There are indeed things I disliked, mostly concentrating in the go-by attitude of the crew once they are in David´s castle but I must watch it once more, I believe.
For now, feeling quite positive about the film. Ridley was one of the people that started this franchise, if someone must end it, I can´t think of somebody better than him. To infinity and beyond!
4/10 and I'm being generous.
I struggle to understand how this thing got made by such an experienced director. He's either past caring or his earlier works were something of a fluke. How on earth did this script and this screenplay get the go-ahead? Clearly Fox learned nothing from Prometheus.
It's packed full of tropes from earlier films in the franchise (sorry, not good enough), and retreads themes Scott already explored - and to much better effect - in Blade Runner.
What's worse is that it's boring. There are no scares and no tension.
The characters are poorly written, while the films own internal logic collapses early on and never recovers.
It's a poor slasher movie with delusions of grandeur.
4/10 and I'm being generous.
I struggle to understand how this thing got made by such an experienced director. He's either past caring or his earlier works were something of a fluke. How on earth did this script and this screenplay get the go-ahead? Clearly Fox learned nothing from Prometheus.
It's packed full of tropes from earlier films in the franchise (sorry, not good enough), and retreads themes Scott already explored - and to much better effect - in Blade Runner.
What's worse is that it's boring. There are no scares and no tension.
The characters are poorly written, while the films own internal logic collapses early on and never recovers.
It's a poor slasher movie with delusions of grandeur.
Quote from: Rafael S. on May 13, 2017, 08:42:46 AM
Having just came out of the theater, various things struck into my mind but definitely must highlight that I love what I believe is a representation of Giger through David. I was pro ancient creature or mother nature cleanser (still am to a degree) but now I don´t mind the idea of David the Alien creator as an homage by Ridley to the artist. I don´t know why I think this truly is the case.
Second, the hell...the Aliens looked MENACING AND DISTURBING. Tall, upright, more humanoid than ever. I was really proud of having elegance in these creatures once more.
And last, am I alone in thinking that the starting scene was just gold? Gold dialogue, gold acting, gold pacing. There are indeed this I disliked, mostly concentrating in the go-by attitude of the crew once they are in David´s castle but I must watch one more, I believe.
For now, feeling quite positive about the film. Ridley was one of the people that started this franchise, if someone must end it, I can´t think of somebody better than him. To infinity and beyond!
I'm with you, that starting scene was perfect. Weylands ambivalence to David, his want of complete control of David. He's designed him to have an opinion, but he didn't want that opinion unless it suited him. And then the cut to the rehash of the original alien score and space. Just great.
Quote from: USS-Sulaco on May 13, 2017, 08:53:29 AM
Quote from: Rafael S. on May 13, 2017, 08:42:46 AM
Having just came out of the theater, various things struck into my mind but definitely must highlight that I love what I believe is a representation of Giger through David. I was pro ancient creature or mother nature cleanser (still am to a degree) but now I don´t mind the idea of David the Alien creator as an homage by Ridley to the artist. I don´t know why I think this truly is the case.
Second, the hell...the Aliens looked MENACING AND DISTURBING. Tall, upright, more humanoid than ever. I was really proud of having elegance in these creatures once more.
And last, am I alone in thinking that the starting scene was just gold? Gold dialogue, gold acting, gold pacing. There are indeed this I disliked, mostly concentrating in the go-by attitude of the crew once they are in David´s castle but I must watch one more, I believe.
For now, feeling quite positive about the film. Ridley was one of the people that started this franchise, if someone must end it, I can´t think of somebody better than him. To infinity and beyond!
I'm with you, that starting scene was perfect. Weylands ambivalence to David, his want of complete control of David. He's designed him to have an opinion, but he didn't want that opinion unless it suited him. And then the cut to the rehash of the original alien score and space. Just great.
The tea cup was just the begging of David´s training towards submission. Just pounding.
Quote from: USS-Sulaco on May 13, 2017, 08:41:42 AMSpoiler
1. There needed to be something to address the choice to treat the planet in such a blasé fashion (i.e. no helmets, no consideration of potential pathogens). At least an atmosphere compositional scan, addressing surface conditions in general, something to add credibility. I understand the movie had to fit a lot in but it's an obvious thing people will complain about.
Spoiler
Ricks talks about how perfect it is for human habitation. It seems logical that he must have done some kind of atmospheric and environmental scan to know that.
Not to mention it's stated that there's a two-week journey between them finding the planet and actually arriving there. Plenty of time to run all kinds of scans, especially if no one's going back to cryo in the interim.
I might write a review later, don't have time right now. I have never been more disappointed in a movie in my entire life, and those that know me from way back might be surprised by that.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 13, 2017, 09:08:03 AM
Quote from: USS-Sulaco on May 13, 2017, 08:41:42 AMSpoiler
1. There needed to be something to address the choice to treat the planet in such a blasé fashion (i.e. no helmets, no consideration of potential pathogens). At least an atmosphere compositional scan, addressing surface conditions in general, something to add credibility. I understand the movie had to fit a lot in but it's an obvious thing people will complain about.
Spoiler
Ricks talks about how perfect it is for human habitation. It seems logical that he must have done some kind of atmospheric and environmental scan to know that.
Not to mention it's stated that there's a two-week journey between them finding the planet and actually arriving there. Plenty of time to run all kinds of scans, especially if no one's going back to cryo in the interim.
No, Ricks talks about it being in the Goldilocks zone with a surface ocean and it is an ideal candidate to interpret as a habitable planet. That does not mean those interpretations were validated. Vs origae-6 which it sounds had been highlighted as a suitable candidate through reasoning similar to that which ricks discussed for paradise, but had furthered been vetted (assumption of satellites, landers gathering further data). Yes I know, you could just assume it was done off-screen, but I'm trying to address all the bitching that's gone on over trivial stuff like this. And for a modern audience you lose them unless you spell out details like this to keep story credibility air-tight
Doesn't change my point about them having two whole weeks to check it out in more detail on the way.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 13, 2017, 09:31:28 AM
Doesn't change my point about them having to whole weeks to check it out in more detail on the way.
Yeah. I'm with you here dude. Two weeks of scanning is enough to make the judgements about the place.
I liked it so much... I enjoyed it so much that I want to say I loved it. But not on the same level as the original Alien, or Aliens even. But I really did like this movie, a lot. Check out my spoiler-free review below.
https://youtu.be/eGNKL_F0o_k (https://youtu.be/eGNKL_F0o_k)
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 13, 2017, 09:31:28 AM
Doesn't change my point about them having two whole weeks to check it out in more detail on the way.
No it doesn't, but where do they ever mention said scans? That is an assumption. My last two sentences of previous post address my viewpoint on this.
What else would they be doing in those two weeks we don't see?
The assumption they didn't check the planet out is more daft than assuming they probably did. Because that's obviously what they'd do. It doesn't need to be outright stated because there's 14 whole days in which they could do just that kind of thing.
If "a modern audience" can't come to that conclusion, then that's their issue, not the film's.
I took the wife to go and watch it last night...
I kept expectations low because I didn't want to be disappointed but....
I really enjoyed it!
Beautiful dark setting, good characters and a fun and entertaining storyline.
I thought I was going to dislike the 'Alien' being partly CGI but NO, they actually pulled it off in a way that did not feel forced and lazy.
My Only negative points, the gestation period is way off- resulting on the movie feeling it was on fast forward.
And concern about how it will link in with the rest of the franchise without spoiling it's predecessors.
I can see what they're going for and it is definitely creepy and sinister BUT a lot will have to be done to connect it up fluidly to the original movie.
Yes it was a paint by numbers and tick box movie, all the things you would expect to see in an Alien movie was there, but to expect anything different you should have gone to see a different movie.
My final verdict, really entertaining and deserves it's title into the franchise.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 13, 2017, 09:58:06 AM
What else would they be doing in those two weeks we don't see?
The assumption they didn't check the planet out is more daft than assuming they probably did. Because that's obviously what they'd do. It doesn't need to be outright stated because there's 14 whole days in which they could do just that kind of thing.
If "a modern audience" can't come to that conclusion, then that's their issue, not the film's.
What is this remote sensing technology they can use that can actually give them atmospheric composition in the two weeks on the journey when they ARE NOT ACTUALLY AT THE PLANET? Direct testing of atmo cannot be done until in transit through said atmo. There are a barrage of tests you couldn't do until at the planet itself. Seeing as we see the covenant arrive at the planet, and a short space of time between that and the drop, it needs addressing, even with throw away lines. I'll agree to disagree on this one. Easy way to lose the audience which would be easy to avoid. Anyway I enjoyed the movie and that is what I choose to focus on.
Quote from: USS-Sulaco on May 13, 2017, 10:07:37 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 13, 2017, 09:58:06 AM
What else would they be doing in those two weeks we don't see?
The assumption they didn't check the planet out is more daft than assuming they probably did. Because that's obviously what they'd do. It doesn't need to be outright stated because there's 14 whole days in which they could do just that kind of thing.
If "a modern audience" can't come to that conclusion, then that's their issue, not the film's.
What is this remote sensing technology they can use that can actually give them atmospheric composition in the two weeks on the journey when they ARE NOT ACTUALLY AT THE PLANET? Direct testing of atmo cannot be done until in transit through said atmo. There are a barrage of tests you couldn't do until at the planet itself. Seeing as we see the covenant arrive at the planet, and a short space of time between that and the drop, it needs addressing, even with throw away lines. I'll agree to disagree on this one. Easy way to lose the audience which would be easy to avoid. Anyway I enjoyed the movie and that is what I choose to focus on.
Why can it not be done?
If they can tell the size and position of the planet light years away then why not as they get closer, perform more detailed scans. It's fiction set in the future so I'm sure these scans are possible.
Hi folks,.
My review after watching it on Thursday night,.
Immediately after the film I walked away with "I really don't care anymore what happens next" which is such a shame for a true fan of these films for many years,.
It looks like Ridley has really decided end the alien films and I am highly doubtful that he will make another,. And for him to say alien 5 won't ever get made,.!? Maybe now that we have seen the backstory to these perfect organisms the story in alien 5 just doesn't make sense,.
I'll go into details about what was in my opinion wrong about the film but for now,.
Very disappointed,..
Second, the hell...the Aliens looked MENACING AND DISTURBING. Tall, upright, more humanoid than ever. I was really proud of having elegance in these creatures once more.
And last, am I alone in thinking that the starting scene was just gold? Gold dialogue, gold acting, gold pacing.
I totally agree with you. When the xenomorph stood outside the temple and looked at the dropship, it looked like a freaking badass. And when it was crawling around the ship you could sense it's immense power and weight. The best iteration of the xenomorph so far imo.
And yeah, the prologue is pure gold. I think it's brilliant where David gets his name from.
Quote from: Snake on May 13, 2017, 10:55:25 AMThe best iteration of the xenomorph so far imo.
Apart from the fact it was an idiot.
It looked good, but it wasn't portrayed as a particularly intelligent creature.
The xenomorphs in aliens were also idiots, just charging mindlessly at the sentry guns.
They knew they had superior numbers, and had no choice but to wear the guns down. It's not really dumb when you can afford to do it.
They also had the intelligence to know that cutting the power would help them, and to know how to do it.
Spoiler
They didn't get tricked into impaling themselves on a spike just by someone jumping out of the way.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 13, 2017, 10:59:49 AM
Apart from the fact it was an idiot.
It looked good, but it wasn't portrayed as a particularly intelligent creature.
True. At the same time it must be said that in the context of the Covenant his "easy" dispatch sort of makes sense, in the sense that MU/TH/ER here isn't trying to bring the organism back to Earth. As a result given that Daniels has a clear idea of what she's going to do and that MU/TH/ER is complying, they manage to get rid of the Alien fairly easily... There isn't much that the Alien could have done. He couldn't hide, so except if it had stayed still and waited for a direct confrontation there wasn't much he could have done. I agree that they could have made the whole final bug hunt a bit more... suspenseful.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 13, 2017, 11:08:30 AM
They knew they had superior numbers, and had no choice but to wear the guns down. It's not really dumb when you can afford to do it.
They also had the intelligence to know that cutting the power would help them, and to know how to do it.
Spoiler
They didn't get tricked into impaling themselves on a spike just by someone jumping out of the way.
I can agree to a certain extent, but still it took a 1000 rounds before they got the message that they were being butchered, so that doesn't seem really intelligent to me.
About the spoiler, I can't see what's wrong with that. It didn't see it coming so how does that make it an idiot?
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 13, 2017, 11:08:30 AM
They knew they had superior numbers, and had no choice but to wear the guns down. It's not really dumb when you can afford to do it.
They also had the intelligence to know that cutting the power would help them, and to know how to do it.
Spoiler
They didn't get tricked into impaling themselves on a spike just by someone jumping out of the way.
But
Spoiler
Daniels waited for an inhumanely long time before she did that deke, she was really determined to do it
...it looked believeable actually.
I think it got killed very easily but Let's not forget the xenomorph in covenant isn't the the same as what you see in the later films, so in terms of intelligence and instinct it'll lack, I see it as a generation thing plus future hosts i.e. Engineers will alter its DNA to increase its instincts, appearance etc
Quote from: Snake on May 13, 2017, 11:20:18 AMI can agree to a certain extent, but still it took a 1000 rounds before they got the message that they were being butchered, so that doesn't seem really intelligent to me.
Depends how you look at it. If their interest is in their survival as a species rather than as individuals, then they can afford to sacrifice as many as it takes, so long as they have plenty in reserve. Which they did.
That kind of assessment in itself takes intelligence. And personally, I find the idea that the few are willing to get themselves killed just to ensure the many still get you and lay their children in you to be more scary.
Quote from: Salt The Fries on May 13, 2017, 06:01:36 AM
I'll tell you this. Covenant is very very unexpected. Strong German Expressionism element. Very strong. Nosferatu, Frankenstein, Dracula overtones and a bit of Seventh Seal. And I'm f**king serious. I really liked the film. Not a masterpiece, but very bold in its differentness. And I really loved Crudup's performance.
I get where you're coming from but do we really need this in an actual alien prequel film? It's impossible for me to succumb to the suspension of disbelief with this film. I wouldn't have any problems with it if it were a long distant sequel like A:R but this should have at least tried to maintain the tone set by the original film. I mean even a videogame did it way better.
But i have to agree, peculiarly for me too that was the aspect i liked the most about the film, apart from the prologue with Peter Wayland and couple scenes set in space in the first half. But i think you give it too much credit when juxtaposing it with classics like Nosferatu, Frankenstein. Numerous b-movies of the 50s, 60s and 70s took inspiration from German Expressionism, but that doesn't make them very good films. Almost every sentences by David is either a reference or a straight copy. Only original or unexpected about it was how did it all end up in a 100 mil summer blockbuster, that is amusing. They should have amplified it though, the sets and the light surronding David were more AvP 1 than The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari.
Take all the weirdness and the mad scientist trope away and most of the film would fall completely flat on it's ass. I think it's the only saving grace of A:C, beside some of the actors and some visual moments. Almost everything related to the creatures was pathetic by itself, apart from the facehugger vfx, that looked great.
Edit: Now, i want to see it again, as a fantasy film that is unrelated to Alien.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 13, 2017, 11:40:19 AM
Quote from: Snake on May 13, 2017, 11:20:18 AMI can agree to a certain extent, but still it took a 1000 rounds before they got the message that they were being butchered, so that doesn't seem really intelligent to me.
Depends how you look at it. If their interest is in their survival as a species rather than as individuals, then they can afford to sacrifice as many as it takes, so long as they have plenty in reserve. Which they did.
You got me there I guess, but still, I don't think the protomorph was an idiot. I just like to think it was blinded with rage or something, which makes it a scary as ****. I wouldn't want to go toe to toe with it, that's for sure.
*Fixed quotes. Hicks.
1] Alien3, Alien
2] Aliens
3] Alien: Resurrection
4] Covenant
-] Prometheus should not exist
At least I feel like they got rid of Engeeners from the genesis of xenomorph.
It's good! I miss my old, good Space Jockeys designed by H.R. Giger.
David and Walter are the best part of this new film.
I don't understand why chesburster has legs? What is the purpose?
I treat this new movie as a spin-off, not a prequel.
Too naive - like some stories from comic books in this universe.
Design of neomorph is poor. Sorry.
However, It's still pretty enjoyable movie and I would like to see it again. Soon.
It's still could be better. Then I would like to buy Blu-Ray.
But I don't want to.
The main problem of the movie, talking about fxs and look of the Xeno, it´s the the low budget and rushed production.
Fox and Ridley need to expend more money and time to create the movie. They should go back to the practical fxs. They could make the ships with maquettes, they could do the monster with a man on a suit, they could call Studio Adi, and not, they prefer to design a weightless, digital, jumping and fast running Xeno,
Ok. For anyone that wants to read, here's my full review of Alien Covenent.
Alien Covenant Review
Saw this film last night. After the last few years of hearing about the pre-production, to watching the trailers and genuinely becoming excited again for a new and fresh spin on my beloved Alien franchise, even overwhelmingly so, feeling panic as the 20th Century Fox logo drifted across the screen and hoping with all my heart that this was going to be the film that restored the Alien mythos to greatness again.
This isn't quite the case.
I saw Alien when i was 8 years old. It scarred me. Horrified me. It made me the man I am today.
The thing is, the original got it so right. The Möbius designed interior of the Nostromo, all softly padded and claustrophobic, the long dark corridors, jangling chains, the dripping water and strobe lights. The feeling as if the ship is actually breathing and alive. Everything worked. The crew a normal bunch of space truckers. The Alien itself. The sound design. The moments of quietness that almost gut-punch you with tension. The stunning, beautiful and haunting score by Jerry Goldsmith. Perfect.
It's safe to say this has and most likely always will be my all-time favourite film.
Then came the sequels.
Aliens. This completely blew me away! Infinitely quotable and full of great characterisation. James Cameron took Ridley Scott's original and ran with the concept making something feel familiar yet new, again ramping up the tension to unbearable levels whilst also expanding the Alien mythos. As far as I'm concerned, Cameron has never made a bad film and this is certainly one of his best. I will always love this movie.
Alien 3 I hated at first but over the years have found a deep appreciation for, even if it does feel like an Alien film made by the BBC.
Alien Resurrection just felt like a parody made by the guys behind League of gentlemen. An absolute turd. I hate this film with a great passion.
I will not mention the crummy AVP movies.
So, when I first heard of Prometheus being made, I was genuinely excited and to see what Ridley Scott had up his sleeve. It was to be centred around the derelict ship from the original Alien and finally answer the question of the mysterious "Space Jockey" in the huge chair? Upon hearing this, I had in my head a film full of Gigeresque horrors on a planet with all kinds of biomechanical madness. Years ago I saw a piece of concept art in Starburst magazine that was for a movie I can't remember, but H.R. Giger was involved with the design, and it looked absolutely astounding! Imagine the traditional biblical imagery of Hell but designed by Giger. From what I saw, it was very Paradise Lost but full-on horror, madness and beauty. This is where I wanted Prometheus to go to. I expected after the first trailers to have a kind of "The Hills Have Eyes" where the Prometheus crew stumble across the engineers and get captured by, tortured or experimented on by them. Instead we got confused plot points about where do we come from, what happens when we die? Etcetera Etcetera. Yawn. So far, so pretentious. And then we got idiot scientists running around and making stupid decisions, unlikeable characters and creature designs that were for the most part, generic tentacled squid-like aliens that could have been from any of the Alien knock-off movies of the 80's and 90's.
All was not lost though. The striking design of the Engineers I thought to be a complete stroke of genius, tapping into the aesthetics of Ancient Greece and biblical imagery so ingrained in human culture and art. Then to make them genuinely unsettling and creepy with their black shiny eyes and cold malevolence. I would have been ok with a film of just these guys terrifying the crew of the Prometheus like mad alien scientists and using the black accelerant on them to make even more twisted creations to further whatever mad agenda they had for the universe. It could have been a master stroke. But that wasn't to be. It was about faith and idiocy. Sorry. Wrong franchise Ridley. You already made Exodus Gods and Kings. And that was a boring snore-fest.
So after that, I was hoping Covenant would at least right a few wrongs and at least try to make a claustrophobic, bloody, and intense body-horror type thriller. With Aliens in it. That's kind of what we got actually.
I'll start with what I didn't like and I'll try not to spoil too much.
A lot of people are praising Fassbender for his role of the androids David and Walter. While they were with great characters initially, David really started to grate on me as the film went on, to the point where I was expecting him to raise his little pinky to the side of his mouth and chuckle menacingly whilst winking at the audience. And the line of dialogue when he tells Walter "I'll do the fingering" made me spit my popcorn out with laughter.
Once on the planet, the crew embark on a long walk to find the source of the transmission they intercepted in orbit. Without helmets on. Are these people complete f**king idiots?????
Anyway, it all goes pear-shaped as you can imagine, this being an Alien film.
The pacing of the film seemed really rushed and things zip by at an alarming rate. People get infected and spawn horrifying creatures in what seems like minutes when in the original film, the gestation period was a hell of a lot longer. It's all speeded up, almost as if to satisfy the attention spans of the people leaning over the seats in front whilst staring daggers at the popcorn munchers in the next row.
The Neomorphs are an interesting addition to the canon and are pretty freaky, especially the first birth scene, which it utterly as disgusting and repulsive as you'd imagine.
Anyhow, when the main alien eventually arrives, the chest burster scene was a truly WTF moment. A fully formed alien baby stands up and raises its arms in the air mimicking David like a child mimics its father. The music was lovely and romantic. What the utter f**k???!!!!
But then, as long as it takes it to finally arrive, gets to adulthood, goes apeshit, kills a few people, it's gone. Dead. Its like a Prometheus film with a few Aliens in it. Not at all like an alien film.
My thought was that the film was really intense but lacked any suspense. Also it was sorely lacking in any kind of claustrophobia. That's kind of a staple of all the alien films. It would be like having a Star Wars film without any space battles.
Oh wait....hmm...
Also as the film progresses, the characters yet again make really stupid and idiotic decisions that result in more deaths.
The General look of the film I thought was nowhere near as striking as Prometheus but all the same, a very beautiful film to look at.
What I did like.
The effects are all top notch as you you'll expect. Bloody and disgusting, brutal and shocking. The sound design was excellent and the score was surprisingly haunting and effective, even riffing on Jerry Goldsmith's fantastic original.
When the Xenomorph eventually arrives late in the film, its bloody magnificent! The best depiction of an alien since Aliens. They absolutely nailed the design and movement.
The characters largely were very well fleshed out and likeable, the acting solid and the tone generally sombre. A much needed improvement over Prometheus.
I left the cinema not knowing what to think. I couldn't process what I'd just seen. And I'm still not sure what to think. Only repeated viewing will tell. But interestingly enough, as I've been writing this review, I'm more and more falling in love with the film. That's never happened before. It's taken me to unexpected places. Maybe that's a good thing as the last thing I wanted was another derivative alien film.
It's certainly a very far cry from that.
Quote from: John Doe on May 13, 2017, 12:03:52 PM
The main problem of the movie, talking about fxs and look of the Xeno, it´s the the low budget and rushed production.
Fox and Ridley need to expend more money and time to create the movie. They should go back to the practical fxs. They could make the ships with maquettes, they could do the monster with a man on a suit, they could call Studio Adi, and not, they prefer to design a weightless, digital, jumping and fast running Xeno,
The budget was fine, perhaps the rushed production could be one of the culprits. The alien vision was shockingly bad, Alien 3 did it much better. The cgi overall wasn't on par with the best out there and there was too much of it, they should have used practical effects as much as possible instead of the opposite. The spaceship fx in space was pretty good, but it looked like a videogame when the dropship landed on the lake. The problem with the cgi was also how the movie was shot, the camerawork etc didn't do it any favours.
You blow into the end and ill do the fingering
!!!
Sexual, porn parady of Alien. :D
I wish I could've seen Ridley's face at the premiere, to see how he reacted to the laugh that line got.
I loved it!
I've just joined, so "hi" to you all.
I thought the film was excellent. I went to see Prometheus the day it came out and walked out the cinema thinking "WTF was that about?". I didn't hate Prometheus, but after getting it on Bluray (in 3D) it did start to grow on me.
As for AC, the film seemed to me as a sequal to Prometheus rather than a prequal to Alien. I know it had strange plot areas and people doing questionable things BUT so did Alien. In Alien, you have them go out into a derelict space craft and then one of the crew members looking into the egg. And then they got the guy back on the ship, observed a facehugger on his face and tried to get it off but then it fell off on it's own. After all of that, they invited him to dinner without ever asking what the purpose was of the thing hugging his face over the past few days.
Same thing with Aliens, the marines are sent into the Alien area and then told to disarm?? LOL...and also the wierdness of no-one noticing the huge Alien queen hitch a ride on the dropship.
Am sure a movie based on common sense would be rather boring.
Some people have complained about a certain person not being in the film, but as far as I was concerned that person featured quite heavily where required and I felt suitably informed about that person.
I am a fan of Alien, watched it a ton of times. And the same with Aliens too. I disliked Alien 3 and Alien R.
All in all, I thought it was a great film and was happy there was pointers to both Alien and Prometheus. However, I did think one early scene in particular was a hat tip to 2001 Space Odyssey.
thanks for reading and I hope I haven't given too much away
Quote from: Dill-On on May 13, 2017, 12:01:55 PM
1] Alien3, Alien
2] Aliens
3] Alien: Resurrection
4] Covenant
-] Prometheus should not exist
At least I feel like they got rid of Engeeners from the genesis of xenomorph.
It's good! I miss my old, good Space Jockeys designed by H.R. Giger.
David and Walter are the best part of this new film.
I don't understand why chesburster has legs? What is the purpose?
I treat this new movie as a spin-off, not a prequel.
Too naive - like some stories from comic books in this universe.
Design of neomorph is poor. Sorry.
However, It's still pretty enjoyable movie and I would like to see it again. Soon.
It's still could be better. Then I would like to buy Blu-Ray.
But I don't want to.
The fact that you have alien resurrection as the 3rd best in the franchise, and have a problem with the creatures in covenant, yet they clearly look better than the white halfbreed baby alien in resurrection not to mention ripely had a jump shot lol...I haven't even seen covenant and I already know it has to be either 3rd or 4th best of the series. But hey to each his own....resurrection is borderline horrible imo
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 13, 2017, 01:01:37 PM
I wish I could've seen Ridley's face at the premiere, to see how he reacted to the laugh that line got.
I think it was meant to bring sexual connotations to the table.
Quote from: Salt The Fries on May 13, 2017, 01:16:56 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 13, 2017, 01:01:37 PM
I wish I could've seen Ridley's face at the premiere, to see how he reacted to the laugh that line got.
I think it was meant to bring sexual connotations to the table.
Obviously, but was it meant to be a parody, if it was, then why? It wasn't the only moment my theatre burst laughing. I thought this was supposed to scare us shitless, like the promo interviews suggest.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 13, 2017, 10:59:49 AM
Quote from: Snake on May 13, 2017, 10:55:25 AMThe best iteration of the xenomorph so far imo.
Apart from the fact it was an idiot.
It looked good, but it wasn't portrayed as a particularly intelligent creature.
The xeno's never been terribly bright, in the series. The smartest of the whole bunch is the Queen, and she's not a rocket scientist.
Quote from: Fire Marshall Bill on May 13, 2017, 01:14:49 PM
Quote from: Dill-On on May 13, 2017, 12:01:55 PM
1] Alien3, Alien
2] Aliens
3] Alien: Resurrection
4] Covenant
-] Prometheus should not exist
At least I feel like they got rid of Engeeners from the genesis of xenomorph.
It's good! I miss my old, good Space Jockeys designed by H.R. Giger.
David and Walter are the best part of this new film.
I don't understand why chesburster has legs? What is the purpose?
I treat this new movie as a spin-off, not a prequel.
Too naive - like some stories from comic books in this universe.
Design of neomorph is poor. Sorry.
However, It's still pretty enjoyable movie and I would like to see it again. Soon.
It's still could be better. Then I would like to buy Blu-Ray.
But I don't want to.
The fact that you have alien resurrection as the 3rd best in the franchise, and have a problem with the creatures in covenant, yet they clearly look better than the white halfbreed baby alien in resurrection not to mention ripely had a jump shot lol...I haven't even seen covenant and I already know it has to be either 3rd or 4th best of the series. But hey to each his own....resurrection is borderline horrible imo
He's far from being the only one who liked A:R more than Covenant. They are both very oddball films, but Resurrection is better in some ways and is a more coherent movie overall. The creatures are awful in both, Covenant has more detailed cgi but unlike A:C. Resurrection had some practical aliens.
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 13, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
The xeno's never been terribly bright, in the series. The smartest of the whole bunch is the Queen, and she's not a rocket scientist.
Actually, that's in the next screeplay. The Queen starts an Alien NASA.
Quote from: reecebomb on May 13, 2017, 01:40:06 PM
Quote from: Fire Marshall Bill on May 13, 2017, 01:14:49 PM
Quote from: Dill-On on May 13, 2017, 12:01:55 PM
1] Alien3, Alien
2] Aliens
3] Alien: Resurrection
4] Covenant
-] Prometheus should not exist
At least I feel like they got rid of Engeeners from the genesis of xenomorph.
It's good! I miss my old, good Space Jockeys designed by H.R. Giger.
David and Walter are the best part of this new film.
I don't understand why chesburster has legs? What is the purpose?
I treat this new movie as a spin-off, not a prequel.
Too naive - like some stories from comic books in this universe.
Design of neomorph is poor. Sorry.
However, It's still pretty enjoyable movie and I would like to see it again. Soon.
It's still could be better. Then I would like to buy Blu-Ray.
But I don't want to.
The fact that you have alien resurrection as the 3rd best in the franchise, and have a problem with the creatures in covenant, yet they clearly look better than the white halfbreed baby alien in resurrection not to mention ripely had a jump shot lol...I haven't even seen covenant and I already know it has to be either 3rd or 4th best of the series. But hey to each his own....resurrection is borderline horrible imo
He's far from being the only one who liked A:R more than Covenant. They are both very oddball films, but Resurrection is better in some ways and is a more coherent movie overall. The creatures are awful in both, Covenant has more detailed cgi but unlike A:C. Resurrection had some practical aliens.
I dunno man, guess it all depends on what you like. Resurrection imo was laughable at best. From the dumb concept of cloning Ripley, to the characters it seemed more like a riddick movie or something than part of the alien franchise. Not one second of suspense. Not to mention Ripleys clone acted nothing like ripely its as if they just brought her along cus they feared continuing the franchise without her character. And again, no suspense or scary moments at all. Def have to disagree with you on all parts concerning that movie. IMO it's down there with avp requiem. Should've never been made. Only positive about resurrection was Ron pearlman
Another problem is juicy trailer footage not seen in the film.
The edited Shower scene,The Rosenthal scream the 1 bit I was waiting for and in 2 seconds we are into the next scene,the red corridor and the last supper footage,all would have added to this film.
Quote from: Fire Marshall Bill on May 13, 2017, 02:31:31 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on May 13, 2017, 01:40:06 PM
Quote from: Fire Marshall Bill on May 13, 2017, 01:14:49 PM
Quote from: Dill-On on May 13, 2017, 12:01:55 PM
1] Alien3, Alien
2] Aliens
3] Alien: Resurrection
4] Covenant
-] Prometheus should not exist
At least I feel like they got rid of Engeeners from the genesis of xenomorph.
It's good! I miss my old, good Space Jockeys designed by H.R. Giger.
David and Walter are the best part of this new film.
I don't understand why chesburster has legs? What is the purpose?
I treat this new movie as a spin-off, not a prequel.
Too naive - like some stories from comic books in this universe.
Design of neomorph is poor. Sorry.
However, It's still pretty enjoyable movie and I would like to see it again. Soon.
It's still could be better. Then I would like to buy Blu-Ray.
But I don't want to.
The fact that you have alien resurrection as the 3rd best in the franchise, and have a problem with the creatures in covenant, yet they clearly look better than the white halfbreed baby alien in resurrection not to mention ripely had a jump shot lol...I haven't even seen covenant and I already know it has to be either 3rd or 4th best of the series. But hey to each his own....resurrection is borderline horrible imo
He's far from being the only one who liked A:R more than Covenant. They are both very oddball films, but Resurrection is better in some ways and is a more coherent movie overall. The creatures are awful in both, Covenant has more detailed cgi but unlike A:C. Resurrection had some practical aliens.
I dunno man, guess it all depends on what you like. Resurrection imo was laughable at best. From the dumb concept of cloning Ripley, to the characters it seemed more like a riddick movie or something than part of the alien franchise. Not one second of suspense. Not to mention Ripleys clone acted nothing like ripely its as if they just brought her along cus they feared continuing the franchise without her character. And again, no suspense or scary moments at all. Def have to disagree with you on all parts concerning that movie. IMO it's down there with avp requiem. Should've never been made. Only positive about resurrection was Ron pearlman
Yep, it depends but please don't put the A:R on the same level with AVP:R. The latter was so bad i couldn't even make it to the half point of the movie. Ripleys clone not acting like Ripley was kind of the idea, it would have been far worse the other way.
To me A:R is not really an alien movie but as a spinoff, it's a quilty pleasure of sorts. In it's defence i thought that the pacing and suspense, the cast, the music and the overall visual style was better than in Covenant, it had some strong moments. The aliens were stupid afterthought in both of them and at least the newborn made me feel a little uneasy. And not to mention that Jenuet is a very good director and his handprints are all over the movie.
Quote from: reecebomb on May 13, 2017, 02:56:17 PM
To me A:R is not really an alien movie but as a spinoff, it's a quilty pleasure of sorts. In it's defence i thought that the pacing and suspense, the cast, the music and the overall visual style was better than in Covenant, it had some strong moments. The aliens were stupid afterthought in both of them and at least the newborn made me feel a little uneasy. And not to mention that Jenuet is a very good director and his handprints are all over the movie.
Agree. Jean-Pierre Jeunet did better job that Scott in
Covenant. I like his dark comedy and grotesque approach.
Quote from: Ingwar on May 13, 2017, 03:24:55 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on May 13, 2017, 02:56:17 PM
To me A:R is not really an alien movie but as a spinoff, it's a quilty pleasure of sorts. In it's defence i thought that the pacing and suspense, the cast, the music and the overall visual style was better than in Covenant, it had some strong moments. The aliens were stupid afterthought in both of them and at least the newborn made me feel a little uneasy. And not to mention that Jenuet is a very good director and his handprints are all over the movie.
Agree. Jean-Pierre Jeunet did better job that Scott in Covenant. I like his dark comedy and grotesque approach.
There is another thing. Soundtrack to Alien Resurrection is far superior to the one in Alien Covenant
Quote from: Ja on May 13, 2017, 03:33:11 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on May 13, 2017, 03:24:55 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on May 13, 2017, 02:56:17 PM
To me A:R is not really an alien movie but as a spinoff, it's a quilty pleasure of sorts. In it's defence i thought that the pacing and suspense, the cast, the music and the overall visual style was better than in Covenant, it had some strong moments. The aliens were stupid afterthought in both of them and at least the newborn made me feel a little uneasy. And not to mention that Jenuet is a very good director and his handprints are all over the movie.
Agree. Jean-Pierre Jeunet did better job that Scott in Covenant. I like his dark comedy and grotesque approach.
There is another thing. Soundtrack to Alien Resurrection is far superior to the one in Alien Covenant
That's why i included music ;) Most of the music was almost straight lifted, i kept thinking why is there Alien music in this movie.
The only original music i remember were the sappy melanchonic piano melodies that would fit right in 7th Heaven, i wanted to throw up. The pulsating throbbing and wailing worked well, but again it was Alien remixed.
Quote from: reecebomb on May 13, 2017, 02:56:17 PM
Quote from: Fire Marshall Bill on May 13, 2017, 02:31:31 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on May 13, 2017, 01:40:06 PM
Quote from: Fire Marshall Bill on May 13, 2017, 01:14:49 PM
Quote from: Dill-On on May 13, 2017, 12:01:55 PM
1] Alien3, Alien
2] Aliens
3] Alien: Resurrection
4] Covenant
-] Prometheus should not exist
At least I feel like they got rid of Engeeners from the genesis of xenomorph.
It's good! I miss my old, good Space Jockeys designed by H.R. Giger.
David and Walter are the best part of this new film.
I don't understand why chesburster has legs? What is the purpose?
I treat this new movie as a spin-off, not a prequel.
Too naive - like some stories from comic books in this universe.
Design of neomorph is poor. Sorry.
However, It's still pretty enjoyable movie and I would like to see it again. Soon.
It's still could be better. Then I would like to buy Blu-Ray.
But I don't want to.
The fact that you have alien resurrection as the 3rd best in the franchise, and have a problem with the creatures in covenant, yet they clearly look better than the white halfbreed baby alien in resurrection not to mention ripely had a jump shot lol...I haven't even seen covenant and I already know it has to be either 3rd or 4th best of the series. But hey to each his own....resurrection is borderline horrible imo
He's far from being the only one who liked A:R more than Covenant. They are both very oddball films, but Resurrection is better in some ways and is a more coherent movie overall. The creatures are awful in both, Covenant has more detailed cgi but unlike A:C. Resurrection had some practical aliens.
I dunno man, guess it all depends on what you like. Resurrection imo was laughable at best. From the dumb concept of cloning Ripley, to the characters it seemed more like a riddick movie or something than part of the alien franchise. Not one second of suspense. Not to mention Ripleys clone acted nothing like ripely its as if they just brought her along cus they feared continuing the franchise without her character. And again, no suspense or scary moments at all. Def have to disagree with you on all parts concerning that movie. IMO it's down there with avp requiem. Should've never been made. Only positive about resurrection was Ron pearlman
Yep, it depends but please don't put the A:R on the same level with AVP:R. The latter was so bad i couldn't even make it to the half point of the movie. Ripleys clone not acting like Ripley was kind of the idea, it would have been far worse the other way.
To me A:R is not really an alien movie but as a spinoff, it's a quilty pleasure of sorts. In it's defence i thought that the pacing and suspense, the cast, the music and the overall visual style was better than in Covenant, it had some strong moments. The aliens were stupid afterthought in both of them and at least the newborn made me feel a little uneasy. And not to mention that Jenuet is a very good director and his handprints are all over the movie.
Bruh, it may be a spinoff to you but it's a direct sequel after alien 3. It's just a horrible movie period. Honestly as far as the score being better in resurrection than covenant, that doesn't bother me in the slightest honestly, I'm there to watch movie not listen to soundtrack. How did the newborn giant white alien making baby noises make you feel uneasy??! Not to mention it just crushes Charles lee ray's(the real chucky) for gore purposes only. Ripley although supposed to act different was really a boring character. She had no business being in the movie, its kinda like a soap opera when a character gets killed off the show cus they leave the show but then a year later get a new contract and then get bogusly written back into the show even though they clearly died last year. If they wanted to make a sequel to alien 3 it shoulda been a completely new story and we people like Prometheus was. I feel like just from what I've seen from trailers and snippets it's head and shoulders above resurrection. Put it this way, if resurrection was released instead of covenant I think we'd be saying rip to the franchise right now
Not to mention that was the beginning of Xenia sounding like dragons.. lol
QuoteI'm with you, that starting scene was perfect. Weylands ambivalence to David, his want of complete control of David. He's designed him to have an opinion, but he didn't want that opinion unless it suited him. And then the cut to the rehash of the original alien score and space. Just great.
Yeah I thought that was going to be terrible. Instead it was not only gorgeous, beautifully acted and weirdly tense, but set up the themes of the film and somehow made huge chunks of Prometheus about 800% more understandable. Pretty cool achievement.
I remember when I first watched Prometheus and thought - I just don't get why David is the way he is or what made him do that. That scene in particular (and other scenes too) made it so clear. I burst out laughing when I saw his face shift as Charlie tells him that they built him because they could and that it was good he couldn't feel disappointed. Great acting from Fassbender, and layering from Scott.
I just kind of wish Scott thought as much about the alien mythos/canon as he does about robots.
For the first time in franchise history, the robots are now important(and get first-billing) instead of just being incidental. We should've had a lot more Bishop. And Call should've been revealed to be a robot immediately, so we can see these two beautiful, less-than-human but powerful women go on this beautiful journey of self discovery against the backdrop of an action-horror film.
Quote from: Fire Marshall Bill on May 13, 2017, 05:11:14 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on May 13, 2017, 02:56:17 PM
Quote from: Fire Marshall Bill on May 13, 2017, 02:31:31 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on May 13, 2017, 01:40:06 PM
Quote from: Fire Marshall Bill on May 13, 2017, 01:14:49 PM
Quote from: Dill-On on May 13, 2017, 12:01:55 PM
1] Alien3, Alien
2] Aliens
3] Alien: Resurrection
4] Covenant
-] Prometheus should not exist
At least I feel like they got rid of Engeeners from the genesis of xenomorph.
It's good! I miss my old, good Space Jockeys designed by H.R. Giger.
David and Walter are the best part of this new film.
I don't understand why chesburster has legs? What is the purpose?
I treat this new movie as a spin-off, not a prequel.
Too naive - like some stories from comic books in this universe.
Design of neomorph is poor. Sorry.
However, It's still pretty enjoyable movie and I would like to see it again. Soon.
It's still could be better. Then I would like to buy Blu-Ray.
But I don't want to.
The fact that you have alien resurrection as the 3rd best in the franchise, and have a problem with the creatures in covenant, yet they clearly look better than the white halfbreed baby alien in resurrection not to mention ripely had a jump shot lol...I haven't even seen covenant and I already know it has to be either 3rd or 4th best of the series. But hey to each his own....resurrection is borderline horrible imo
He's far from being the only one who liked A:R more than Covenant. They are both very oddball films, but Resurrection is better in some ways and is a more coherent movie overall. The creatures are awful in both, Covenant has more detailed cgi but unlike A:C. Resurrection had some practical aliens.
I dunno man, guess it all depends on what you like. Resurrection imo was laughable at best. From the dumb concept of cloning Ripley, to the characters it seemed more like a riddick movie or something than part of the alien franchise. Not one second of suspense. Not to mention Ripleys clone acted nothing like ripely its as if they just brought her along cus they feared continuing the franchise without her character. And again, no suspense or scary moments at all. Def have to disagree with you on all parts concerning that movie. IMO it's down there with avp requiem. Should've never been made. Only positive about resurrection was Ron pearlman
Yep, it depends but please don't put the A:R on the same level with AVP:R. The latter was so bad i couldn't even make it to the half point of the movie. Ripleys clone not acting like Ripley was kind of the idea, it would have been far worse the other way.
To me A:R is not really an alien movie but as a spinoff, it's a quilty pleasure of sorts. In it's defence i thought that the pacing and suspense, the cast, the music and the overall visual style was better than in Covenant, it had some strong moments. The aliens were stupid afterthought in both of them and at least the newborn made me feel a little uneasy. And not to mention that Jenuet is a very good director and his handprints are all over the movie.
Bruh, it may be a spinoff to you but it's a direct sequel after alien 3. It's just a horrible movie period. Honestly as far as the score being better in resurrection than covenant, that doesn't bother me in the slightest honestly, I'm there to watch movie not listen to soundtrack. How did the newborn giant white alien making baby noises make you feel uneasy??! Not to mention it just crushes Charles lee ray's(the real chucky) for gore purposes only. Ripley although supposed to act different was really a boring character. She had no business being in the movie, its kinda like a soap opera when a character gets killed off the show cus they leave the show but then a year later get a new contract and then get bogusly written back into the show even though they clearly died last year. If they wanted to make a sequel to alien 3 it shoulda been a completely new story and we people like Prometheus was. I feel like just from what I've seen from trailers and snippets it's head and shoulders above resurrection. Put it this way, if resurrection was released instead of covenant I think we'd be saying rip to the franchise right now
Not to mention that was the beginning of Xenia sounding like dragons.. lol
Each to their own. Not saying that bringing Ripley back from the dead isn't stupid, but that aside A:R is a more coherent film. Newborns death scene was more imaginative and disturbing than any death in Covenant. And i believe A:R is even gorier film, but off course that doesn't make it better.
Quote from: juxtapose on May 12, 2017, 02:40:44 AM
covenant is still holding on strong after 90 reviews. .currently sitting at 77 on rt
To be honest Rotten Tomatoes means nothing.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
In a very brief way. I was quite cynical going into Covenant. I have a strong dislike for Prometheus. But to my surprise, I really enjoyed Covenant. Yes there were some plot holes and things I didn't agree with but I still found it hugely watchable and entertaining. Can't wait to see it again.
I agree with reecebomb.
By the way - Newborn is much better than Neomorph.
At least he isn't natural so we have explanation why it isn't that great, but still quite creepy and original beast.
Neomorph looks and behave like hundreds of creatures from different movies. It's cheap.
Time to admit that Alien: Resurection was bad... but only in comparition to previous ALIEN movies!
Welcome to 2017. Next to AVP, AVP:R, Prometheus and Covenant this movie is a f**** masterpiece (I'm joking but you know what I mean).
If it comes to creature design, Xenomorphs from Ressurection lost their biomechanical structure :( but they are dark, strong and I like how they sound. Finally Xenomorphs growl like something dangerous, bigger than a tiger. Bass, low voice. Screaming? It's job for humans. ;)
I think Covenant was good, rating it 4 out of 5. It seemed a bit too fast, to be honest it could have ran for another 2 hours at that pace, which I would have preferred. Loved seeing the xenomorph again, he's the boss. The other aliens are awesome too. This film has now opened up new pathways for the dark horse comics to expand on. Brilliant. I must admit I need to watch this film alot more for it all to sink in.
Quote from: SentryGun on May 13, 2017, 07:57:16 PM
In a very brief way. I was quite cynical going into Covenant. I have a strong dislike for Prometheus. But to my surprise, I really enjoyed Covenant. Yes there were some plot holes and things I didn't agree with but I still found it hugely watchable and entertaining. Can't wait to see it again.
Actually I agree. 100%. I haven't huge expectations, this is why I enjoyed the movie in cinema.
However, it still too weak in comparison to 4 classic movies.
So, from being a universally hated movie, Alien: Resurrection is Ok now? I can bet that the same will happen with Covenant. Just give it more time and upcoming movies :laugh:
Here is my review, unfortunately it is in Romanian, but I know there are Romanian fans here and maybe they want to have a look. (If I am breaking any rules, I appologize in advance, and you can delete this post):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nly8AoeHpZA&t=1s
Wow... Did not expect this "haters gonna hate" outcome on the poll, as reactions on the boards were negative. Nice.
Watched it yesterday and to my surprise I liked it a lot. I think Ridley really went all out on this one and he really gave us f*cking aliens...
Spoiler
While the movie didn't exactly clean up all of Prometheus' mess it managed to make me forget about it by just being fast and furious. David explains that the black goo is volatile and came in many forms, good enough for me, on with the show. This movie is cruel, nihilistic and very self aware. I think the birth of the xenomorph scene, with it's little "I love you daddy" dance was a cool meta joke, Ridley saying: "you want it? Here it is!". The thing stretches triumphantly and even seems to smile. It's grotesque in the best possible way. David breaking the fourth wall with his flute, his campy dialogue, his chamber of horrors, it's all B-movie madness and I'm actually surprised all this craziness ended up on the big screen in a blockbuster like this. And you just get hit over the head, or should I say on the nose right from the start with it's creation theme, starting with David and Weyland's conversation and continuing with David's megalomaniac adolescent speeches. In many ways this movie is probably at least as ridiculous as Prometheus but while I can't stand that movie I didn't mind those aspects here. Someone rated this movie earlier in WTF's, well I'll give it 8 out of 10 WTF's then. It's Ridley cynically doing his job as ordered by the studios and not giving a f**k, just getting on with it and throwing in some of his pet themes here and there. And it works for me, strangely. It's a dark fantasy film, not sci fi, and I'm OK with that.
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on May 13, 2017, 08:25:45 PM
So, from being a universally hated movie, Alien: Resurrection is Ok now? I can bet that the same will happen with Covenant. Just give it more time and upcoming movies :laugh:
I always liked that movie in the same way like today. ;)
It's just very bad situation that new movies are worse than level of Resurrection.
It should be a border.
Anyway, I laughed that you are trying to scare us with vision of new, even worse movies in the future!
I enjoyed the briefness of the Alien. The scenes were you do get to contemplate the creature, are amazing and reveal what is necessary for you to get the idea of the distorted sexualized humanoid you have to deal with. Other movies over exploited the shots of the creature to show just how cool of a bug, or nasty, are the xenomporphs.
Now, regarding its intelligence, I believe it is being determined by the fact it was killed too early on. For all considerations, the fact that Covenant xenomorphs act on mostly pure visceral anger, its even more disturbing than xenomorphs with a PhD in Logics.
Well I've finally seen it and I loved it. I can see why some don't but for me it was the best since aliens. It definitely isn't perfect by any means but I really liked the dark, nihilistic tone of the film and as expected from Ridley it looks beautiful.
Didn't find it scary in the slightest but I'm not convinced 6 films down the line it's possible to make the Alien scare anymore but it was definatley thrilling.
I thought the back/throatburster sequence was probably the best scene in any alien film since lambert and Parker were introduced to the Xeno.
Also loved the opening scene with Weyland, I'm not sure why but it felt really uneasy and tense to me.
Fassbender was outstanding and I really liked all the characters who were given a chance to make an impression. Daniels was the heart of the film, I really like her and Orams characters, in particular when they discussed investigating the planet. Tennessee was great value too.
I wasn't keen on the birthing scene with the arms up and even though I wasn't a fan of shaw I found her discovery a bit meh.
Loved the end when Daniels realised it's David, she really pulled off the horror of her predicament but it was a terrible shame it was so obvious to the audience David had switched.
And the alien at last standing tall again was a highlight.
They really need to stop given up so much of these films in the trailers though. The original alien trailer is one of the greatest ever now they just show you the whole bloody film.
4 out of 5 for me and can't wait to see it again.
Quote from: Hemi on May 13, 2017, 08:33:41 PM
Wow... Did not expect this "haters gonna hate" outcome on the poll, as reactions on the boards were negative. Nice.
Thing is, the people who loathed something are always gonna be way louder/more visible than those who don't. Particularly in the core of a fandom. It's the reason why SW fans convinced themselves everyone hated TFA, when quite obviously the vast majority at the very least liked it.
The opening prologue with Weyland is absolutely fantastic. I love how Weyland is so proud of his perfect creation and boasts about human ingenuity and design in a room filled with great works of art, only for David to completely turn the tables by pointing out humanity's frailties and realising that he is in fact superior to his creator. This revelation leaves the all-arrogant Weyland coldly silent. It's wonderful, and then the classic music and hieroglyph title card gave me goosebumps.
Then the rest of the movie happened.
On the whole I can't find a better word other than 'okay.' The most disappointing thing for me was there was just no suspense throughout the entire thing. The 'climax' on board the Covenant was absolutely woeful. The alien itself aside from a few shots looked disappointing in its digital incarnation, though I did love the close-up shots of the side of its head. It's finally the right size again.
I did like the music though. I thought the theme that played when the chestburster emerged was really good. Putting aside the comedic hands in the air scene, the music actually made it come across as quite emotional watching Oram give birth to the progenitor of 38 years of franchise history.
ffs
David plays the EXACT same tune in prometheus.......
it's the engineers theme ......
Quote from: Semaka on May 13, 2017, 08:29:48 PM
Here is my review, unfortunately it is in Romanian, but I know there are Romanian fans here and maybe they want to have a look. (If I am breaking any rules, I appologize in advance, and you can delete this post):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nly8AoeHpZA&t=1s
Uh, hello ! We don't see each other often around here (in fact we barely do) ! :laugh:
I'm in a bit of a disagreement when it comes to having English titles for non-English videos. Could've at least used a subtle "Film Review" if you know what I mean.
Overall it was a solid review. Thanks for clearing it up. I have low expectations for this movie and didn't know what to expect.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on May 13, 2017, 09:00:44 PM
The opening prologue with Weyland is absolutely fantastic. I love how Weyland is so proud of his perfect creation and boasts about human ingenuity and design in a room filled with great works of art, only for David to completely turn the tables by pointing out humanity's frailties and realising that he is in fact superior to his creator. This revelation leaves the all-arrogant Weyland coldly silent. It's wonderful, and then the classic music and hieroglyph title card gave me goosebumps.
Then the rest of the movie happened.
On the whole I can't find a better word other than 'okay.' The most disappointing thing for me was there was just no suspense throughout the entire thing. The 'climax' on board the Covenant was absolutely woeful. The alien itself aside from a few shots looked disappointing in its digital incarnation, though I did love the close-up shots of the side of its head. It's finally the right size again.
I did like the music though. I thought the theme that played when the chestburster emerged was really good. Putting aside the comedic hands in the air scene, the music actually made it come across as quite emotional watching Oram give birth to the progenitor of 38 years of franchise history.
I liked the film on a whole more than you but definatey agree on the opening scene, it's full of underlying tension. Your right about the birthing scene too but god knows why we had the silly comedy hands, talk about killing the moment!
Just watched - not happy
Cons
Way too long character building
Slaughtered everyone within minutes
Too many different monsters
Very predictable
Kill scenes way too fast
End scene very predictable
Talking to Aliens FFS
Pros
David
Xeno CGI impressed me beyond expectation
Bombing scene nicely done - just slightly quick
Overall if you're expecting Alien type Ridley (Dark corners hunting down crew slowly and in a scary unpredictable manor) forget it. If he makes another and it's anything like this - Game over man
Quote from: Dan2004 on May 13, 2017, 09:51:38 PM
Just watched - not happy
Cons
Way too long character building
Slaughtered everyone within minutes
Too many different monsters
Very predictable
Kill scenes way too fast
End scene very predictable
Talking to Aliens FFS
Pros
David
Xeno CGI impressed me beyond expectation
Bombing scene nicely done - just slightly quick
Overall if you're expecting Alien type Ridley (Dark corners hunting down crew slowly and in a scary unpredictable manor) forget it. If he makes another and it's anything like this - Game over man
Thanks for the review....but really, are they showing two different versions of the film at different cinemas??? You praise the CGI, others praise it, then others say its jarringly bad...Some say the characters are well fleshed out,others say we get hardly any character development.
I know everyone has their opinions and that is fine...its just funny how all over the place the fan AND official reviews are. On the plus side, since everyone's reviews keep cancelling each other out, I have no idea what to expect on the 18th when I see it :)
Quote from: cucuchu on May 13, 2017, 10:52:17 PM
Quote from: Dan2004 on May 13, 2017, 09:51:38 PM
Just watched - not happy
Cons
Way too long character building
Slaughtered everyone within minutes
Too many different monsters
Very predictable
Kill scenes way too fast
End scene very predictable
Talking to Aliens FFS
Pros
David
Xeno CGI impressed me beyond expectation
Bombing scene nicely done - just slightly quick
Overall if you're expecting Alien type Ridley (Dark corners hunting down crew slowly and in a scary unpredictable manor) forget it. If he makes another and it's anything like this - Game over man
Thanks for the review....but really, are they showing two different versions of the film at different cinemas??? You praise the CGI, others praise it, then others say its jarringly bad...Some say the characters are well fleshed out,others say we get hardly any character development.
I know everyone has their opinions and that is fine...its just funny how all over the place the fan AND official reviews are. On the plus side, since everyone's reviews keep cancelling each other out, I have no idea what to expect on the 18th when I see it :)
Well, to some most CGI is jarringly bad.
But for others, Alien 3 CGI is jarringly bad and everything else varies from okay to fantastic.
Quote from: cucuchu on May 13, 2017, 10:52:17 PM
Quote from: Dan2004 on May 13, 2017, 09:51:38 PM
Just watched - not happy
Cons
Way too long character building
Slaughtered everyone within minutes
Too many different monsters
Very predictable
Kill scenes way too fast
End scene very predictable
Talking to Aliens FFS
Pros
David
Xeno CGI impressed me beyond expectation
Bombing scene nicely done - just slightly quick
Overall if you're expecting Alien type Ridley (Dark corners hunting down crew slowly and in a scary unpredictable manor) forget it. If he makes another and it's anything like this - Game over man
Thanks for the review....but really, are they showing two different versions of the film at different cinemas??? You praise the CGI, others praise it, then others say its jarringly bad...Some say the characters are well fleshed out,others say we get hardly any character development.
I know everyone has their opinions and that is fine...its just funny how all over the place the fan AND official reviews are. On the plus side, since everyone's reviews keep cancelling each other out, I have no idea what to expect on the 18th when I see it :)
The creature CGI is not good. It looks weightless when neomorphs and creates the modern issue of "lets show more because we can" which leads to more ropey cgi shots. The fully grown xeno actually moved much better than the neos but by god was its birth sequence hilarious, it looked like it was gonna start singing and dancing "new york new york".
Alien 3 had puppets . only had 1 shot cg
Ok then, this review is so very full of spoilers. So if you're reading this, you've seen the film!
Fassbender was excellent! He does creepy so very well and both David and Walter were wonderfully similar while being polar opposites. It was kind of obvious how it was going to end though and raised the first of my inner nerd questions. "How did David know to store embryos in the correctly sized/packaged way for loading to Covenant?"
From the moment David cut his hair, it was telegraphing the inevitable swap. Just saying.
Onto the rest of the cast. In an appropriate word, expendable. With the exception of Daniels, none of the rest of the crew engendered any feeling of empathy, even Tenessee. If a Xenomorph was headbutting the window in front of me, I'd be doing something a little more than saying "woah".
The rest of this rant will be my inner nerd screaming, I'd apologise, but I figure, if you're reading this, you're probably exactly the same as me.
David creates the Xenomorph from experiments with Neomorph DNA? Where the hell did he get the eggs from? Why did he take a backward step in creating facehuggers when the spore is a much better method of infection? We're expected to buy 10 years of backstory from a 2 minute clip? Bring out the extended edition or die in shame!
If Shaw was the one singing John Denver and piloting the ship, when/why/how did she rebuild David given that the ship they took from Prometheus was a different one from the ship David was decapitated on?!
Why did the newborn Xenomorph interact with David? Supposedly recognises him as creator? Bollox, it would have run or attacked him, not performed some sort of bullshit mime act.
And the final nail in the canonical coffin, yes we all know that Xenomorph maturation rates are pretty much as variable as you like, however, the one that pops in the med bay must have been on all kinds of shit to go from infant to full adult pretty much in the time in takes Daniels to get to the bay! The whole 3rd act felt rushed to me. Some great action sequences that should have been drawn out giving some time for the Alien to grow and start hunting and people to realise how screwed they are. Ripley spent the best part of 2 hours being terrorised by the original before finally blowing it out the airlock. Daniels goes from scared to murderous in 3 minutes and happily gets into close quarters with it to achieve the same effect......Massive lady balls or rushed story telling? You decide.
Oh and before I give this the inevitable thumbs up that you know are coming. Ya canny defy the laws of physics! Yes I know Xenomorphs are vacuum resistant but that bastard jumped through space (hard vacuum with no momentum) and managed to get back on the ship?! Bollox to you Einstein and Newton, what do you know? Silicon based lifeforms scoff at your assumptions on action/reaction. Air and multi ton equipment heading out to space? I shall simply use my strength, pointy claws and can do attitude to piss all over that! If only Ripley's alien had the same ability, I can only think he didn't want it enough.
Gripes aside, it's a bloody good romp and a worthy addition to the series. You knock Mr Scott at your peril and the man knows his stuff. I will be waiting for the extended or directors cut to prove my points, this film delivers atmosphere and scares for the newby and initiated alike. Supposedly sets up the sequel but seeing as the survivors are completely at David's mercy, that's a short and gory film!
Quote from: szkoki on May 13, 2017, 11:34:29 PM
Alien 3 had puppets . only had 1 shot cg
You mean 1 CG
sequence right? Pretty much all of the sequence at the end involving the Xeno chasing people through the corridors and locking the doors etc was CG, at least 3 minutes worth.
Just got back from my second viewing of Covenant. Loved it even more.
I noticed so many details this time around.
Quote from: bacchus on May 14, 2017, 12:12:12 AM
You mean 1 CG sequence right? Pretty much all of the sequence at the end involving the Xeno chasing people through the corridors and locking the doors etc was CG, at least 3 minutes worth.
The only CG shot in Alien 3 is the cracks running down the head when the alien is splashed with water. All the shots of it running down the corridors etc, is a rod-puppet added onto the footage.
Spoiler
(https://www.yourprops.com/movieprops/default/yp517ba8f04e5720.32039130/Alien-3-Rod-puppet-Alien-head-Alien-3-5.jpg)
Quote from: Alien³ on May 14, 2017, 12:43:23 AM
Just got back from my second viewing of Covenant. Loved it even more.
I noticed so many details this time around.
Quote from: bacchus on May 14, 2017, 12:12:12 AM
You mean 1 CG sequence right? Pretty much all of the sequence at the end involving the Xeno chasing people through the corridors and locking the doors etc was CG, at least 3 minutes worth.
The only CG shot in Alien 3 is the cracks running down the head when the alien is splashed with water. All the shots of it running down the corridors etc, is a rod-puppet added onto the footage.
Spoiler
(https://www.yourprops.com/movieprops/default/yp517ba8f04e5720.32039130/Alien-3-Rod-puppet-Alien-head-Alien-3-5.jpg)
This specifically was the CG I was thinking of:
QuoteTo finish the alternate cut, a shot of the infant Dragon running away from the carcass of its host was completed with a CGI version of the creature, as the sequence had originally been dropped from the film before the creature effects were added
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Alien_3_Assembly_Cut
Quote from: MightyViper on May 14, 2017, 01:06:40 AM
Quote from: Alien³ on May 14, 2017, 12:43:23 AM
Just got back from my second viewing of Covenant. Loved it even more.
I noticed so many details this time around.
Quote from: bacchus on May 14, 2017, 12:12:12 AM
You mean 1 CG sequence right? Pretty much all of the sequence at the end involving the Xeno chasing people through the corridors and locking the doors etc was CG, at least 3 minutes worth.
The only CG shot in Alien 3 is the cracks running down the head when the alien is splashed with water. All the shots of it running down the corridors etc, is a rod-puppet added onto the footage.
Spoiler
(https://www.yourprops.com/movieprops/default/yp517ba8f04e5720.32039130/Alien-3-Rod-puppet-Alien-head-Alien-3-5.jpg)
This specifically was the CG I was thinking of:
QuoteTo finish the alternate cut, a shot of the infant Dragon running away from the carcass of its host was completed with a CGI version of the creature, as the sequence had originally been dropped from the film before the creature effects were added
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Alien_3_Assembly_Cut
That cgi was done for the assembly cut in 2003
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 14, 2017, 01:09:33 AM
Quote from: MightyViper on May 14, 2017, 01:06:40 AM
Quote from: Alien³ on May 14, 2017, 12:43:23 AM
Just got back from my second viewing of Covenant. Loved it even more.
I noticed so many details this time around.
Quote from: bacchus on May 14, 2017, 12:12:12 AM
You mean 1 CG sequence right? Pretty much all of the sequence at the end involving the Xeno chasing people through the corridors and locking the doors etc was CG, at least 3 minutes worth.
The only CG shot in Alien 3 is the cracks running down the head when the alien is splashed with water. All the shots of it running down the corridors etc, is a rod-puppet added onto the footage.
Spoiler
(https://www.yourprops.com/movieprops/default/yp517ba8f04e5720.32039130/Alien-3-Rod-puppet-Alien-head-Alien-3-5.jpg)
This specifically was the CG I was thinking of:
QuoteTo finish the alternate cut, a shot of the infant Dragon running away from the carcass of its host was completed with a CGI version of the creature, as the sequence had originally been dropped from the film before the creature effects were added
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Alien_3_Assembly_Cut
That cgi was done for the assembly cut in 2003
Shame they couldn't of cleaned up the rest of the creature effects. Alien 3 is good, but the puppet effects are so so bad.
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 14, 2017, 01:09:33 AM
That cgi was done for the assembly cut in 2003
I never specified which cut of the film I was referring to.
I just gave the CGI in Alien 3 as an example of jarringly bad.
Which it is. It doesn't stop existing because some of the effects were puppets.
Or stop being bad because it's in just one of the cuts of the film.
That example is easily the worst CGI in any of the movies, bar none.
Me and my girlfriend watched it yesterday, along with 2 other friends we dragged in the cinema and it was great and was quite shock on some things. I wouldn't give it a perfect score but sir Ridley Scott certainly gave us what most we wanted and to be honest I did leave the theater wanting more... which we'll probably see in a blu-ray release. I'm from the Philippines and it actually showed here at May 10, which I though was gonna show by May 19.
But, can't wait for the next one. ;D
(But I wish they'd put to use the prototype Pulse Rifle in the next one lol)
Quote from: MightyViper on May 14, 2017, 01:17:50 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 14, 2017, 01:09:33 AM
That cgi was done for the assembly cut in 2003
I never specified which cut of the film I was referring to.
I just gave the CGI in Alien 3 as an example of jarringly bad.
Which it is. It doesn't stop existing because some of the effects were puppets.
Or stop being bad because it's in just one of the cuts of the film.
That example is easily the worst CGI in any of the movies, bar none.
I'm confused now. Most of the horrible creature fx shots were puppet shots. Can you link a youtube video of the shot(s) you're referring to? The bambi-burst shot is probably the best creature effect shot in the entire cut.
Quote from: newagescamartist on May 14, 2017, 02:59:59 AM
Quote from: MightyViper on May 14, 2017, 01:17:50 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 14, 2017, 01:09:33 AM
That cgi was done for the assembly cut in 2003
I never specified which cut of the film I was referring to.
I just gave the CGI in Alien 3 as an example of jarringly bad.
Which it is. It doesn't stop existing because some of the effects were puppets.
Or stop being bad because it's in just one of the cuts of the film.
That example is easily the worst CGI in any of the movies, bar none.
I'm confused now. Most of the horrible creature fx shots were puppet shots. Can you link a youtube video of the shot(s) you're referring to? The bambi-burst shot is probably the best creature effect shot in the entire cut.
I don't see how you can be, considering it's one of the only CGI moments in the film and I've already spelled out the exact thing I'm talking about.
Unless you haven't seen the assembly cut of Alien 3?
If so don't worry. Here's a link:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M7Gm-PbV5BE
Starts about 1.51 in, just so there's no further confusion.
Also I have no idea why you're mentioning terrible puppet shots again. I never said the puppet shots were good or bad. In fact, I didn't even mention them in my OP. I was comparing bad
CGI to okay/good
CGI. If you want to debate horrible puppetry talk to someone who actually raised it. If however you're just trying to claim that horrible blurry, jerky, barely looks like it's in the movie thing isn't jarringly bad...
Well lol we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.
Agree to diagree. That cgi shot is fine.
Quote from: T Dog on May 13, 2017, 11:33:40 PM
Quote from: cucuchu on May 13, 2017, 10:52:17 PM
Quote from: Dan2004 on May 13, 2017, 09:51:38 PM
Just watched - not happy
Cons
Way too long character building
Slaughtered everyone within minutes
Too many different monsters
Very predictable
Kill scenes way too fast
End scene very predictable
Talking to Aliens FFS
Pros
David
Xeno CGI impressed me beyond expectation
Bombing scene nicely done - just slightly quick
Overall if you're expecting Alien type Ridley (Dark corners hunting down crew slowly and in a scary unpredictable manor) forget it. If he makes another and it's anything like this - Game over man
Thanks for the review....but really, are they showing two different versions of the film at different cinemas??? You praise the CGI, others praise it, then others say its jarringly bad...Some say the characters are well fleshed out,others say we get hardly any character development.
I know everyone has their opinions and that is fine...its just funny how all over the place the fan AND official reviews are. On the plus side, since everyone's reviews keep cancelling each other out, I have no idea what to expect on the 18th when I see it :)
The creature CGI is not good. It looks weightless when neomorphs and creates the modern issue of "lets show more because we can" which leads to more ropey cgi shots. The fully grown xeno actually moved much better than the neos but by god was its birth sequence hilarious, it looked like it was gonna start singing and dancing "new york new york".
Something I've come to notice is you lot just don't absorb text.
It impressed me BEYOND my expectations. Seeing the tracking clip and the poor work with the back spikes not moving - the fact they corrected it was a slight improvement for the film.
The film was horrible. Xenos standing up playing heads shoulders knees and toes with David. Honestly what are we doing anymore. Pretty sure the first instinctive thing a xebo dis was run like hell following burst.
Garbage
End of.
This one made me chuckle https://youtu.be/a0McqvN-njU
Long time reader of the site - it's brilliant and I'm a huge fan of the franchise generally.
I also write as a fan of Prometheus.
After watching Covenant, I feel that Scott may have felt frustrated after Prometheus, not because the franchise had 'cooked' the Alien, but because his audience no longer wanted to be challenged by film. The audience whinges about unanswered questions, having no patience to wait for a longer story to unfold must have affected his motivation for returning to the franchise.
The result is this film, where Scott ticks off every cliche in the (now literally created) book.
It all starts well, with a set-up that introduces a great cast and draws you into its world - I was a huge fan of that.
However, once a foot is placed on the planet, the pace is relentless, cramming in an army of ideas into the rest of the movie. Potentially stunning images flash by with no time to linger - for example, David's workshop.
My major gripes lie with the Aliens themselves though. A scene where David calms and controls a Neomorph strips away nearly all of the mystery. The chestburster sequence is rushed, and ridiculous - to film the Alien raising its arms to copy David, coupled with the music in that scene...surely it's visual sarcasm from Scott? Surely it's him flicking the V's at those who simply wanted more Aliens with none of the challenge or risk that used to come with it.
I'm not one of those fans who wants ideas to blend perfectly with the past - I say take liberties, change things, Cameron did. The idea of David creating the Alien is a good one. It's the execution of those ideas that make the film feel unsatisfying.
Overall, I wanted to love it. I really wanted to. But the breakneck pace, coupled with how Scott develops the Alien are film-breakers for me. Behind closed doors, my belief is that Scott didn't, and still doesn't want to use the Alien. A (metaphorical) gun was held against his head in these troubled franchised cinema times and he had to use them. At times, you can feel Scott's bold ideas rubbing against those that feel studio/lunchbox/t-shirt selling ones.
Some will praise it just because it's an Alien film. When I left the cinema, I was disappointed. It's a sell-out - for all the wrong reasons.
Quote from: p_w_s86 on May 14, 2017, 10:24:35 AM
Long time reader of the site - it's brilliant and I'm a huge fan of the franchise generally.
I also write as a fan of Prometheus.
After watching Covenant, I feel that Scott may have felt frustrated after Prometheus, not because the franchise had 'cooked' the Alien, but because his audience no longer wanted to be challenged by film. The audience whinges about unanswered questions, having no patience to wait for a longer story to unfold must have affected his motivation for returning to the franchise.
The result is this film, where Scott ticks off every cliche in the (now literally created) book.
It all starts well, with a set-up that introduces a great cast and draws you into its world - I was a huge fan of that.
However, once a foot is placed on the planet, the pace is relentless, cramming in an army of ideas into the rest of the movie. Potentially stunning images flash by with no time to linger - for example, David's workshop.
My major gripes lie with the Aliens themselves though. A scene where David calms and controls a Neomorph strips away nearly all of the mystery. The chestburster sequence is rushed, and ridiculous - to film the Alien raising its arms to copy David, coupled with the music in that scene...surely it's visual sarcasm from Scott? Surely it's him flicking the V's at those who simply wanted more Aliens with none of the challenge or risk that used to come with it.
I'm not one of those fans who wants ideas to blend perfectly with the past - I say take liberties, change things, Cameron did. The idea of David creating the Alien is a good one. It's the execution of those ideas that make the film feel unsatisfying.
Overall, I wanted to love it. I really wanted to. But the breakneck pace, coupled with how Scott develops the Alien are film-breakers for me. Behind closed doors, my belief is that Scott didn't, and still doesn't want to use the Alien. A (metaphorical) gun was held against his head in these troubled franchised cinema times and he had to use them. At times, you can feel Scott's bold ideas rubbing against those that feel studio/lunchbox/t-shirt selling ones.
Some will praise it just because it's an Alien film. When I left the cinema, I was disappointed. It's a sell-out - for all the wrong reasons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVZUVeMtYXc
My thoughts exactly. Couldn't have put it better myself.
Im so glad somebody brought up the spaceballs alien. Because that is exactly the level the xeno has now been reduced to in my eyes. A caricature of its former great self.
I don't believe for one minute that the alien doesn't attack/destroy androids. It attacked a TV monitor for Petes sake,, so it can freaking well attack David, just like it did Bishop.
Actually, even facehugging David to give birth to a more mechanical/digital alien would have been better than the direction the ending finally took. And no - I don't believe David swallowed the facehugger embryos and that is why the chestburster spared him.
Without spoiling anything Alien: Covenant was very different to what I expected. I did enjoy it a lot but it was far more in depth than I expected, what with those big Prometheus questions and themes running throughout. I don't think there's any doubt in my mind that they dropped the ball making the majority of the creatures CGI because the effects already look bad in some places and far worse than those in Prometheus and even the first two Alien movies.
I should note that the self-important tone from Prometheus carries over into Covenant and that may turn away more casual viewers who are simply looking for body horror and bloodshed (or fans who loathed Prometheus).
Alien: Covenant is definitely more of a Prometheus sequel than an Alien movie, although it still feels like the latter, in fact I'd highly recommend watching or re-watching Prometheus and its pre-release ancillary viral content before seeing Covenant. Your view on Prometheus will either make or break this movie for you. Personally I really enjoy the former and I very much enjoyed the scenes in Covenant where the bigger questions and themes are teased and prodded at.
Overall Alien: Covenant is a strong and at times a very tense movie and it felt very much like an Alien film which is pretty much what I wanted. It's a movie that will benefit from repeat viewings and I think that as part of the larger Alien prequel tapestry it is simply only the start. After all, big things have small beginnings.
I wanted and I managed to avoid trailers, news, or any kind of reviews (still haven't read any yet). I knew about the synopsis, I knew there would be an explosion, I knew they were shooting in New Zealand, that is about it.
I'm not aware at all if everybody on the forum has watched it yet so I'll put the whole thing in spoiler tags. Things may be written as facts but they are mainly my opinion.
Spoiler
Ok, straight to the point : Very disappointed overall to be honest.
Although this is just a movie, I was a bit in a state of shock the whole day and I'm still trying to process things right now. Sometimes, I just couldn't believe what I saw. I am saying that as a 'Prometheus' 'partisan'.
Not only had I to deal with this sense of void which last a couple of days every time after watching an alien movie in the theaters, regardless of its quality, but also had to deal for the first time with this thought that no more Alien movie would ever be a masterpiece again (I really wish I'm wrong), because 'Covenant' is really missing the point(s) of what made the original so special,
Here are some elements I would like to address :
Continuity with the previous movie :
Here is an important one, the smooth transition existing from 'Alien' to 'Aliens' and absent from 'Aliens' to 'Alien³' for example, no need to hold forth on that.
We are left at the end of 'Prometheus' with Elizabeth Shaw still searching for answers, after having displayed some extraordinary survival instincts and David helping by giving her a ride with a Juggernaut to the Engineers' homeworld, only to see that in the sequel she is dead a long time ago and David has become malevolent. (Was he already on LV-223 ? My take on that would be no, mainly because he saved the couple of doctors in the storm and waited Holloway's ''green light'' to give him that goo infected drink (that last bit was confirmed by Damon Lindelof's audio commentary) .. though I admit it is a debatable suject)
There is no denial that the path 'Covenant' took destabilized me. In spite of the synopsis, I secretly expected Shaw would have gone to another place after being on Paradise, or at least wouldn't have died because of David.
Yet, there was this beginning scene with young Weyland and David playing the piano, which I would qualify as almost perfect in every aspect, fitting undoubtely well with Promy but which also gives the premise of a change/adjustment of David's character.
Another point : I wasn't expecting that much talked about answer about why the Engineers changed their mind and wanted to 'wipe out' Earth. Unless I missed something, it isn't taken into account.
In 'Covenant', se saw the urns, we saw the holograms and the ship, but on a higher level, I can't say it is fluid with Promy.
Story :
Having the colony ship deciding to change course to have a look at an unknown planet, seems good.
Seeking for an unknown transmission, déjà vu but why not.
David experimenting all sorts of things, creating the alien but also killing everyone on the Engineer's homeworld ... ... ... enough said
David and Walter's interaction : very good some times, pushed a bit too far other times. Unneeded kiss, unneeded fight (or at least not in a Terminator/Super Heroes/[insert what you wish] fashion) unneeded twist at the end though I was open to witness a bad ending but not necessarily in this way.
Atmosphere :
When things feel too 'Hollywoodian' in the pejorative meaning, it is difficult to get immersed in the universe of the movie. Visuals are generally excellent but doesn't serve the atmosphere : for example the interior of the Covenant Ship, despite being beautiful, doesn't distinguish itself from another hollywoodian movie. It doesn't set anything for an unsettling experience like the Nostromo did.
Also, throwing in the mix some Alien score or Prometheus score (doesn't matter how great they are) give me the impression that whoever decided that seek safety.
Bet let's be positive a bit : The best moment would be as stated before, young Weyland and David in this white room and beautiful landscape in the back ground.
The departure from the planet when night was falling communicated good vibes too.
David arriving with the Juggernaut, sunlight behind him, before unleashing the goo was nice (I'm still talking about the atmosphere and not about David's action), as well as finding the crashed ship in the forest.
Seeing the planet from the ship when Tennessee was talking to Mother was excellent too.
Fear :
In 'Alien', I could resume the monster it in this way : ''it isn't there, but it is there''. And not only when the monster was onboard the Nostromo, it is true from the beginning of the film : figuratively speaking, this invisible death coming slowly, in a strange manner, but surely to you. That is why I find really special Bolaji Badejo screentest which materializes this in a great manner.
Here in 'Covenant', ''they are there, but they aren't''. Which is a terrible thing to say. I would never have wanted to reach such a conclusion. Even when they were present in front of your eyes, I did not feel any threat. No visceral scaryness. Surprizing fast moves are there but that should not be the core of an Alien movie.
Monsters :
Esthetically very nice to be fair but here again the motions are not in adequation with expectations, too Hollywoodian, and they are too present on screen.
David communicating with the alien should never had happened...
I'm not too keen either on that new way of impregnation.
Cast/Characterisation :
Call me harsh if you like but it would only be Katherine Waterston, speaking of the new cast, who would fit the alienverse. I'm very demanding on this element, but I can get that people would not understand what I mean. She really has something, something unexplainable coming from deep inside. Like Carry Henn, Lance Henriksen, Veronica Cartwright, Tom Skerritt, Charles Dance, Sigourney Weaver...had in the previous movies.
All the others played their part as they should, but do they really fit this particular universe ?
Pacing seemed quite fast therefore there wasn't much time to spend on charaterisation. No to mention that when it was the case, focus was given on David and Walter.
So here were my non-exhaustive 'first impressions'. As a NON-Alien movie, I would rate it 7,5 max but since it is not the case, I cannot give more than 6,75 placing it way below 'Alien', 'Aliens', 'Alien³', 'Prometheus' and slightly above 'Resurrection'.
I am sure there was a lot of work behind this movie and bashing it repeatedly or in an unfair manner like Promy was sometimes, is a highly questionnable thing to do, so out of respect for all the efforts that have been done and for the people who liked it, I'll surely refrain from doing the same. However, I can't help myself thinking that the balance between wanting to make money and taking true creative risks has been strongly corrupted in favour of the former.
Can't we all just agree that Ridley did the best he could? C'mon let's face it. There will never be another movie like Alien(s). It was unprecendented for it's time and I believe it must be tough to keep reinventing the series after 5 films. The first three movies are classics and will never be surpassed.
And please stop complaining about cgi. Without it movies like Jurassic Park would never have had the same impact on audiences as they did. To be honest, animatronics or puppets can look just as fake. I believe Ridley is experienced enough to know if something works or not.
. .their is nothing more fake looking than a guy in a suit. .it screams f**king CHEAP. .but if done right then it can look very realistic. .but it is unfortunately very extremely limited in terms of how much you can have it on screen. . .hence why in alien u saw so little of the creature. .i always till this day wanne see more of it. .and in aliens the soldiers and runners just did not look all that impressive all the time, queen was awesome tho. .except before she gets sucked out of the ship in the end. .she looked so super fake it was a f**king joke ..those arms looked like they were just flapping around . .love that movie despite the obvious practical effects in places. .and it's aged well. .extremely well. .but even alien 3 did a better job of the alien creature. .covenant to me after seeing numerous spots and the trailers. .the cgi looks breathtaking. .but i might change my mind after seeing it. .just saying. .man in a suit is not always better and loving prometheus as much as i did. .that animatrronic thing in the medpod also looked . .a bit spastic. .not bad but cgi would have looked way better. .
Quote from: Snake on May 14, 2017, 12:42:45 PM
Can't we all just agree that Ridley did the best he could? C'mon let's face it. There will never be another movie like Alien(s). It was unprecendented for it's time and I believe it must be tough to keep reinventing the series after 5 films. The first three movies are classics and will never be surpassed.
And please stop complaining about cgi. Without it movies like Jurassic Park would never have had the same impact on audiences as they did. To be honest, animatronics or puppets can look just as fake. I believe Ridley is experienced enough to know if something works or not.
Please stop asking people not to voice an independent opinion after they paid good money to watch a move. This is the Fan Review section of the forum.
And no I don't believe Ridley did the best he could.
. .i think Ridley gave more than is even healthy at his age. .just look at the HBO first look, and all the cast only speak of his passion and energy. .even if the script was maybe not up to everyones expectations. .from a visual stand of view their is only splendour. .or so i heard from people not just within this board. .and their was a guy in a suit. .but on his own with just the suit on, i don't think it would have been looking particularly realistic and other worldly enought. .especially with the xeno shot outside with it's entire profile visible,. .and it's way to angry to feel shy . . But people always complain about cg. .till it's all practical and audiences just don't think it looks cool and then everybody will say. . Seriuosly. .why did he not just use CGI instead, fox and ridley are cheap sellouts. . It's just bizarre. .
I have to say that, in terms of Alien, the more practical effects the better. However, in some instances the filmmaker can never win. For example, it seemed that the majority of fans here preferred the CGI Fifield in Prometheus to the prosthetic one. This time, the criticisms are 'too many cgi aliens'...
Quote from: Dan2004 on May 14, 2017, 02:00:14 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 14, 2017, 12:42:45 PM
Can't we all just agree that Ridley did the best he could? C'mon let's face it. There will never be another movie like Alien(s). It was unprecendented for it's time and I believe it must be tough to keep reinventing the series after 5 films. The first three movies are classics and will never be surpassed.
And please stop complaining about cgi. Without it movies like Jurassic Park would never have had the same impact on audiences as they did. To be honest, animatronics or puppets can look just as fake. I believe Ridley is experienced enough to know if something works or not.
Please stop asking people not to voice an independent opinion after they paid good money to watch a move. This is the Fan Review section of the forum.
And no I don't believe Ridley did the best he could.
Fair enough. I just read your review and I disagree with nearly everything you wrote.
You really want another movie with aliens running down narrow corridors? It's been done to death so no thanks.
Also, I thought the scene where David was talking to the neomorph to be quite cool actually. They are animals after all, so why not.
At least it wasn't totally bonkers as in Jurassic world.
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 14, 2017, 03:27:47 PM
I have to say that, in terms of Alien, the more practical effects the better. However, in some instances the filmmaker can never win. For example, it seemed that the majority of fans here preferred the CGI Fifield in Prometheus to the prosthetic one. This time, the criticisms are 'too many cgi aliens'...
I think in the case of Fifield is a design issue.
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on May 14, 2017, 03:35:20 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 14, 2017, 03:27:47 PM
I have to say that, in terms of Alien, the more practical effects the better. However, in some instances the filmmaker can never win. For example, it seemed that the majority of fans here preferred the CGI Fifield in Prometheus to the prosthetic one. This time, the criticisms are 'too many cgi aliens'...
I think in the case of Fifield is a design issue.
Yeah, exactly. People preferred the design, not the CGI itself.
Quote from: juxtapose on May 14, 2017, 03:15:47 PM
But people always complain about cg. .till it's all practical and audiences just don't think it looks cool and then everybody will say. . Seriuosly. .why did he not just use CGI instead, fox and ridley are cheap sellouts. . It's just bizarre. .
Yeah, you can't please everybody in this days. And what is almost as bizarre as this, is when you read comments stating that the universally hated Alien R is better than Alien C. I can bet that the same thing will happen with Covenant after upcoming movies.
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on May 14, 2017, 03:35:20 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 14, 2017, 03:27:47 PM
I have to say that, in terms of Alien, the more practical effects the better. However, in some instances the filmmaker can never win. For example, it seemed that the majority of fans here preferred the CGI Fifield in Prometheus to the prosthetic one. This time, the criticisms are 'too many cgi aliens'...
I think in the case of Fifield is a design issue.
That may be the case, but I'm not sure the CGI design is demonstrably 'better', which reflects the point that it's largest subjective.
the topic title should have spoilers in it
Quote from: szkoki on May 14, 2017, 04:41:39 PM
the topic title should have spoilers in it
Which part of "Alien Covenant Fan Reviews" told you otherwise?
Quote from: Snake on May 14, 2017, 03:32:02 PM
Quote from: Dan2004 on May 14, 2017, 02:00:14 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 14, 2017, 12:42:45 PM
Can't we all just agree that Ridley did the best he could? C'mon let's face it. There will never be another movie like Alien(s). It was unprecendented for it's time and I believe it must be tough to keep reinventing the series after 5 films. The first three movies are classics and will never be surpassed.
And please stop complaining about cgi. Without it movies like Jurassic Park would never have had the same impact on audiences as they did. To be honest, animatronics or puppets can look just as fake. I believe Ridley is experienced enough to know if something works or not.
Please stop asking people not to voice an independent opinion after they paid good money to watch a move. This is the Fan Review section of the forum.
And no I don't believe Ridley did the best he could.
Fair enough. I just read your review and I disagree with nearly everything you wrote.
You really want another movie with aliens running down narrow corridors? It's been done to death so no thanks.
Also, I thought the scene where David was talking to the neomorph to be quite cool actually. They are animals after all, so why not.
At least it wasn't totally bonkers as in Jurassic world.
Where did I say that? Where did I ask what you wanted?
You've posted your opinion as have I. Get over it other people will like and dislike certain things you do and don't.
This is what makes these forums totally unbearable most of the time.
Quote from: Dan2004 on May 14, 2017, 05:09:14 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 14, 2017, 03:32:02 PM
Quote from: Dan2004 on May 14, 2017, 02:00:14 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 14, 2017, 12:42:45 PM
Can't we all just agree that Ridley did the best he could? C'mon let's face it. There will never be another movie like Alien(s). It was unprecendented for it's time and I believe it must be tough to keep reinventing the series after 5 films. The first three movies are classics and will never be surpassed.
And please stop complaining about cgi. Without it movies like Jurassic Park would never have had the same impact on audiences as they did. To be honest, animatronics or puppets can look just as fake. I believe Ridley is experienced enough to know if something works or not.
Please stop asking people not to voice an independent opinion after they paid good money to watch a move. This is the Fan Review section of the forum.
And no I don't believe Ridley did the best he could.
Fair enough. I just read your review and I disagree with nearly everything you wrote.
You really want another movie with aliens running down narrow corridors? It's been done to death so no thanks.
Also, I thought the scene where David was talking to the neomorph to be quite cool actually. They are animals after all, so why not.
At least it wasn't totally bonkers as in Jurassic world.
Where did I say that? Where did I ask what you wanted?
You've posted your opinion as have I. Get over it other people will like and dislike certain things you do and don't.
This is what makes these forums totally unbearable most of the time.
Hey man,I didn't mean anything by it. No need to get worked up. I respect any fan's opinion. Clearly your view on the movie differs from mine, but that's not wrong. Otherwise we wouldn't be here in the first place.
Not a review but more of a question - did anyone notice the very apparent similarities with The Lost World: Jurassic Park in the transition between act 1 & 2? :laugh:
Quote from: dry_heat on May 14, 2017, 05:02:56 PM
Quote from: szkoki on May 14, 2017, 04:41:39 PM
the topic title should have spoilers in it
Which part of "Alien Covenant Fan Reviews" told you otherwise?
We should still use spoiler tags. It's a double-edged sword, you see. There are people who want to decide on seeing the movie and then there are those who just want to hear others' opinions.
Anyways, I went with low expectations and was gladly surprised. I didn't hate Prometheus but just wasn't my type of thing (maybe it was due to many half-cooked ideas). Certainly better than it, that's for sure, however it could've benefited from expanding on the Engineers a bit even if they chose to move on from that. We never hear much aside from how big their suits are.
The introduction was beautiful and for a good portion it played like a horror movie with a few jumpscares there and there that could've been in fewer numbers. Facehuggers for example are meant to hide and pounce on their prey so you'd be a fool not expecting to be startled. The final portion was an action movie that wasn't as good as I expected...
Spoiler
...and a bit of a non-original ripoff of Aliens. As if the pinnacle of the franchise - humans find Engineer ship, humans get killed - wasn't done to death.
I didn't see many flaws when it comes to CGI aside from the skinny Xenomorph which might as well be an artistic choice. The environments were a personal good change from the deserted setting of Prometheus.
Overall a much more solid movie than Prometheus and what I hope is a change for the better. Ridley Scott has gotten closer to recreating what makes Alien great. Can't decide whether or not it's better than Alien 3 though. :(
7.7/10
Favorite order is, yada yada:
Alien
Aliens
Alien 3 (?)
Alien: Covenant (?)
AVP
Alien: Resurrection
Prometheus
AVP-R
Quote from: Randomizer on May 14, 2017, 06:47:08 PM
Quote from: dry_heat on May 14, 2017, 05:02:56 PM
Quote from: szkoki on May 14, 2017, 04:41:39 PM
the topic title should have spoilers in it
Which part of "Alien Covenant Fan Reviews" told you otherwise?
We should still use spoiler tags. It's a double-edged sword, you see. There are people who want to decide on seeing the movie and then there are those who just want to hear others' opinions.
No we shouldn't. The topic title is "Alien Covenant Fan Reviews"...can you not compute that in your shell-like?
What is it in today's world where it seems that anyone under 40 has to be treated with kid gloves and given a "safe space"? The damn topic title is enough and who on Christ's earth gives a shit about a review? Just who the f**k decides not to see a film based on what some twat says on the Internet?
Jeez...grow a pair. It's no wonder the West is in such decline. Lord, give me strength!!!
So my short review.
Spoiler
Spoilers beware.
Disappointed. But to be honest, after Prometheus I wasn't expecting a great deal. I think Covenant is better but in my mind that's not saying much.
The film lacks logic and consistency. Things that should of happened didn't and things that did happen shouldn't of. The film is a bit of a mess to be honest. And confusing. No attention was made to keep the audience aware of where characters were during the 2nd act. At one point it feels like they're in the room next door shooting guns but no one hears it so they must be a fair way away. I feel that on repeated viewings the movie will be rife with plot holes simply in regards to where people are and timings let alone anything of more substance.
Just confusing.
And frustrating. The questions and set up from Prometheus feel unanswered. The big one being why the hell the engineers would want to destroy us.
Also what is this planet - the engineer's homeworld or something else?
The movie suffers from being the sequel to Prometheus. The criticism levelled at Prometheus was obviously taken into account by the filmmakers and it feels like they simply wrote out what they perceived the problems with Prometheus to be. Whlie I'm not a fan of Prometheus and the story I still feel there needs to be a connection with the sequel. It's a hard line to toe for the film makers. They had to make a sequel to Prometheus that was criticised yet try and not make the same mistakes. Storywise that must of been difficult. I think they took it a bit too far in distancing from Prometheus with very little explanation.
The interaction between David and Walter was interesting but come on Ridley way to telegraph the ending switch. Having David cut his hair was like a blaring siren. It would have been less telegraphed if David simply didn't have long hair in the beginning.
Now onto the Alien. Although I could see it coming and didn't like it (David being the creator that is), I did get a bit of a chill down the spine when we saw the eggs. I'm not a fan of David being the creator. As others have said, the incubation times are way out of whack. And that chestburster scene with David and the burster completely and utterly destroyed the mythos. I was genuinely waiting for the chestburster to attack David which would have had some symbolism to it. Instead we got jazz hands. WTF.
It was kinda cool seeing the Alien on the big screen again but feel let down by it's portrayal. It does feel like lip service. Some scenes were good, some not so good. The Alien vision was jarring and took me a bit to realize what it was. Not needed.
Overall, frustrating, disappointing but better then Prometheus.
Quote from: dry_heat on May 14, 2017, 08:07:28 PM
Quote from: Randomizer on May 14, 2017, 06:47:08 PM
Quote from: dry_heat on May 14, 2017, 05:02:56 PM
Quote from: szkoki on May 14, 2017, 04:41:39 PM
the topic title should have spoilers in it
Which part of "Alien Covenant Fan Reviews" told you otherwise?
We should still use spoiler tags. It's a double-edged sword, you see. There are people who want to decide on seeing the movie and then there are those who just want to hear others' opinions.
No we shouldn't. The topic title is "Alien Covenant Fan Reviews"...can you not compute that in your shell-like?
What is it in today's world where it seems that anyone under 40 has to be treated with kid gloves and given a "safe space"? The damn topic title is enough and who on Christ's earth gives a shit about a review? Just who the f**k decides not to see a film based on what some twat says on the Internet?
Jeez...grow a pair. It's no wonder the West is in such decline. Lord, give me strength!!!
lol damn dude, that bothered you that much? Sounds like you need one of those safe spaces
Quote from: dry_heat on May 14, 2017, 08:07:28 PM
Quote from: Randomizer on May 14, 2017, 06:47:08 PM
Quote from: dry_heat on May 14, 2017, 05:02:56 PM
Quote from: szkoki on May 14, 2017, 04:41:39 PM
the topic title should have spoilers in it
Which part of "Alien Covenant Fan Reviews" told you otherwise?
We should still use spoiler tags. It's a double-edged sword, you see. There are people who want to decide on seeing the movie and then there are those who just want to hear others' opinions.
No we shouldn't. The topic title is "Alien Covenant Fan Reviews"...can you not compute that in your shell-like?
What is it in today's world where it seems that anyone under 40 has to be treated with kid gloves and given a "safe space"? The damn topic title is enough and who on Christ's earth gives a shit about a review? Just who the f**k decides not to see a film based on what some twat says on the Internet?
Jeez...grow a pair. It's no wonder the West is in such decline. Lord, give me strength!!!
Why so mad? Not a twat but multiple. Do I have to stick only to what the critics say? For all I know they could be paid. They might not know what made the series great.
Nobody is forbidding us from spoiling the movie here, just don't make it inevitable. Not all want to hear it.
And I'm not from the West ('murica & Western Europe) if that's what you mean.
Quote from: newagescamartist on May 14, 2017, 09:12:23 PM
Quote from: Randomizer on May 14, 2017, 06:47:08 PM
We should still use spoiler tags.
Huh?
Detail or I will ignore your comment.
Quote from: Stolen on May 12, 2017, 04:16:10 PM
Hummm , i think, I didn't see that passage in the film?
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffr.web.img5.acsta.net%2Fnewsv7%2F16%2F06%2F10%2F11%2F07%2F413261.jpg&hash=8de0bea7116b2f29b5b166d2398114a29df7a94a)
>:(
It was for the She Wont Go Quietly viral. Though that particular shot wasn't used in it.
Quote from: Snake on May 13, 2017, 10:55:25 AM
Second, the hell...the Aliens looked MENACING AND DISTURBING. Tall, upright, more humanoid than ever. I was really proud of having elegance in these creatures once more.
That scene where
Spoiler
it walks into the terraforming bay looked incredible. Really dug that.
And let's take a step back here, gents. Some really unnecessary heated comments towards each other. Not everyone is going to agree but act with maturity and respect, please. If you're incapable, don't. Simple as that.
In regards to spoilers, it should be expected - this is a review thread.
Agreed. I've proven my point. I just don't think there's much of a reason for reviews if they all contain spoilers and viceversa.
>>>Spoiler Review<<<<<
Not as good as Prometheus.
Covenant seems to be like a small chapter specially about David and a bridge to the next, possibly big event. The movie was quite unidimensional with a simple plot. But Scott did manage to further expand the Alien universe and continue what he started with Prometheus.
The Neomorphs stole the show! They were vicious and terrific. From the trailers, they looked quite meek but man, they gave the chills & thrills. It was exquisitely designed creature, wish more time was given for them. The scene where David & the Neomorph try to communicate with each other is wonderful.
There aren't grand moments and concepts like those in Prometheus; but the movie does give bits of philosophical ideas & mind-set of a carried away Robot. Fassbender's dual role is worth watching but nothing extra ordinary because there wasn't such content which he could pull it off. Some unique moments of David & Walter exchanging ideas & playing flute is just what held the movie during its second and slow act.
All other characters including Daniels are quite cardboard cut outs because again there was nothing more written about them other then to scream, die, pass guns, hold guns, aim and shoot.
The sets & visuals are good but not as grand as Prometheus. The only grand scene was the Black goo bombing sequence. Whereas, the interior sets of the Engineer Citadel was quite disappointing as it were quite bland and not much of their world were shown other than a hall and few small rooms which David converted into his lab. If you expect the signature Off-wordly designs, you aren't going to get it.
With this movie, Scott ended the most anticipated & intriguing adventure of Dr. Elizabeth Shaw by having her killed. So, with no Shaw, the movie feels half empty.
The Xenomorph is superb and better than those in any other Alien sequels. But the ending was rushed and there was nothing unique in having the Xenomorph expelled into the space from the airlock. Alien & Aliens did it a lot better and nothing can beat its final act.
May be repeat viewings could help me catch more and change by mind but until now, purely for the Neomorphs, Fassbender & the Horror, I give it a 6.5/10.
I went in excited and came out frustrated. Some scenes and ideas, didn't work for me while others did. The ending felt rushed and a big rehash.
Some characters were wasted, but I did enjoy the interplay between Walter and David. Wish we'd seen more of that and we had no clue to the size of the city, so a few bits were like WTF
Also the very end
Spoiler
I wouldn't have had Daniels find out it was David instead of Walter. I would have had him say yes to building the cabin. She goes to sleep and THEN he would have revealed himself to David, when speaking to the computer
The film felt like it either needed another draft or two or we should have seen one of the earlier Paglen drafts on screen. It feels like a HUGE chunk was missing and
Spoiler
I was angry and the way the fate of Shaw was brushed off
Also
Spoiler
The opening scene with David and Weyland felt like it was cut from Prometheus and should have been there. The Crossing short film should have been, the Last Supper scene
#F**kGiler #StopScott
I enjoyed it. It was certainly flawed, and Ridley Scott cannot seem to grasp that big ideas are best alluded to, rather than spelled out in hamfisted dialogue ("What do you believe in, David?" indeed!), but I cared for the main characters far more than I did the cast of Prometheus and I found the juxtaposition between the bonkers David and the very Bishop-esque Walter to be a really lovely story beat. The mending of the sail at the beginning felt like it could have come from Isolation, and was really great.
I'm not thumping my head, like I was Prometheus, but the original three are still untouched. The final shot is the most horrific thing the series has put forward since the idea of all the families dying around one another in the hive in Aliens, so that felt like a nice jumping off point to the next one.
I don't mind the xeno origin either. Why not, eh? It may just as well be that. Helps with the Queen/Egg morph conundum too - if it's unnatural, it can manifest in any old tinkered form, I guess.
Although, how they'll tie it into the original I'm a little baffled by. At least one engineer must be making a comeback.
But yeah, there were moments I felt reall happy to be in the cinema watching a new Alien movie, and moments I was a little bored. When business as usual has been resurrection and Requiem, I'll take that as a win!
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 15, 2017, 08:52:21 AM
Quote from: Stolen on May 12, 2017, 04:16:10 PM
Hummm , i think, I didn't see that passage in the film?
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffr.web.img5.acsta.net%2Fnewsv7%2F16%2F06%2F10%2F11%2F07%2F413261.jpg&hash=8de0bea7116b2f29b5b166d2398114a29df7a94a)
>:(
It was for the She Wont Go Quietly viral. Though that particular shot wasn't used in it.
Quote from: Snake on May 13, 2017, 10:55:25 AM
Second, the hell...the Aliens looked MENACING AND DISTURBING. Tall, upright, more humanoid than ever. I was really proud of having elegance in these creatures once more.
That scene where Spoiler
it walks into the terraforming bay looked incredible. Really dug that.
And let's take a step back here, gents. Some really unnecessary heated comments towards each other. Not everyone is going to agree but act with maturity and respect, please. If you're incapable, don't. Simple as that.
In regards to spoilers, it should be expected - this is a review thread.
With all due respect Hicks, I disagree. Just because it's a review thread doesn't mean spoilers should be expected. A lot of people are genuinely curious to know what others feel about the film before they see it. That's why on Youtube, there are Spoiler Reviews and Spoiler-Free reviews. If this thread is only for people who have seen the movie, then it should be renamed "Alien Covenant Fan Discussion (Spoilers)" so as to let people know right from the getgo there are spoilers. Since it is currently labeled as "Alien Covenant Fan Reviews", there is an expectation for people to read reviews from people who have seen the movie with spoiler tags in place just as they are in any other thread that isn't marked "Spoiler" in it's title.
So you and the mods need to decide: Is this thread a fan review thread or is it a movie discussion thread? If it's the former, then spoiler tags are appropriate and should not be discouraged by the moderating team. If it's the latter, the thread title should clearly illustrate the spoiler-centric nature of the conversation within the thread.
Spoiler tag added to topic title.
Wow shit went down because of my suggestions it seems. :D
I would like to read reveiws without spoilers. Thats it if it bothers anyone just send me a pm and i wont read it. :D
Thanks Hicks btw.
A covenant is an agreement that can be made between a nation or people. In the context of the new film from Ridley Scott, it's the name of the colony ship bound for a distant planet to repopulate and start a new life for humankind in the cosmos. The original Alien film was many things. Crucially, it was a narrative of feeble human choices resulting in the unveiling of a creature that acidly twisted the knife into the very notions of morality and compassion and replaced it with a savage survival instinct. This was demonstrated by way of a terrifying life cycle, that felt in equal parts- biologically credible and sexually transgressive. The aptly named Covenant continues this tradition of the horrific entangled web of events being spun by problematic judgements.
A reluctantly stern captain of faith impulsively responds to a human distress call and brashly thinks the sourced planet to be much more habitable for the two thousand colonists than a rigorously simulated and scientifically mapped out planet further out in space. The central antagonist of the picture arrogantly proclaims he loved a woman who showed him compassion and sees fit to still experiment on her for the sole purpose of curiosity. If Alien Covenant is about anything, then it is about the delusional egotism in leadership and creation.
For a film that bestows the central creature of the accoladed horror franchise to title status again, the Xenomorphs prove to be the most problematic aspect of the picture. Essentially, there is no dimension added to the creature's life cycle or a new manner in which we could perceive them.
In Aliens, the sheer multiplicity of their race come from an Alien Queen, and they function as a nightmarish subversion of a truism parents tell their children, encapsulated when Newt says to Ripley- "My mummy always said there were no monsters, no real ones, but there are." In Alien 3, the lone Xenomorph has an animalistic fury as it takes on the attributes of its non-human host resulting in the tense and frenetic point of views shots in the tail end of the picture. At the same time, the creature is seen as the embodiment of divine punishment by the prisoners of Fury 161 who create a nihilistic and cruel religion to deal with their crimes. In Alien Resurrection, there is a human/Xenomorph hybrid as Ripley's DNA is replicated and modified. Even the woeful Alien Vs Predator movies had some sense of creativity in melding both creatures into an amusingly hissing new creation complete with dreadlocks and a new set of jaws.
In Covenant, the Xenomorph have lost their majestic sense of terror that came from their ability to be simultaneously horrifying and striking in their design. Additionally, the subtext of their attacks playing on fears of rape and male pregnancy become clumsy overt text as David (Michael Fassbender) lures the unsuspecting Captain Oram (Billy Crudup) to his lair. When asked what his creations need to be successful, the android retorts in a matter of fact manner- "A Mother."
The best sequence involving the creature is when it attacks a couple during a heightened moment of passion in a running shower cubicle. Ridley Scott's framing is impeccable as the Alien is seen through a mirror as it violently lunges at the male partner. The aftermath is the Xenomorph looking as though it was kissing Upworth (Callie Hernandez) and a darkly comic moment as blood gushes over the female crew member in what seems like an ironic twist of climaxing. As good as the sequence is, it does represent a sobering moment for the series; as it seemingly sinks into the slasher movie genre waters that it once transcended so masterfully.
From the ashes of the Xenomorph's mediocrity, the android David arises to become the malevolent heart of the series. In Prometheus Fassbender's performance subverted the Pinocchio portrait of an artificially intelligent being with a seemingly aloof and obedient nature that hid ominous intentions which occasionally manifested themselves in his wry sense of humour. In Covenant, Fassbender takes David to new heights of passion and all-consuming arrogance.
However, the most striking quality that the Irish actor adds to the character is a protracted sense of wistful sadness. In many of David's exchanges with Walter (the newer android model again played by Fassbender), he expresses his love for Dr Elizabeth Shaw (Noomi Rapace) and his misery of not having her around. Even though the sentiments can be read as a ruse because he experimented on Shaw for his creations; there is still a deep-seated sense of love that went unfulfilled. (A starker reading of David's feelings of unrequited love could be read as physical and retain the sexual subtext that the series always has at its core)
The added quality presents David with a fascinating dichotomy. In the opening sequence, the character stands before Michelangelo's David sculpture as he chooses his name in view of his creator- Peter Weyland (Guy Pierce) Through the course of his conversation, David reflects on his creator's mortality and concludes that he will outlive his human master. In many ways, David believes he is a supremely perfect being who has far exceeded humanity yet still revels in the sentiments of man as embodied in his feelings for Shaw. This conflict of egotism and emotion has particular resonance when thinking of it in the context of the beings that David has created. The creation of Xenomorphs could represent a purging of this conflict in lieu of a pure instinct of survival.
As David, Fassbender channels Vincent Price's pomposity and cleverly echoes Rutger Hauer's seductively impassioned portrait of Roy Batty. Whereas, Fassbender imbues Walter with a sense of innocence and discovery that is manifested in many of the interactions he has with David. A particular noteworthy scene has Walter acknowledging the parameters of his programming after learning to play the flute. At this moment, Fassbender's subtle facial expressions of awe, wonder and reflection are endearing to watch.
Equally as compelling is Katherine Waterston's performance as Daniels who repurposes a particular facet of Sigourney Weaver's performance from Alien to interesting effect. In the 1979 picture, Weaver played Ripley with an economical stillness: her physical movements had a purpose, conviction and ultimately conveyed an assuredness about her duties aboard the Nostromo.
Waterston takes this stillness to a much more emphatic place. While her physicality is efficient, there is something also undeniably warm and embracing about it too. In a scene towards the end, Waterson wonderfully encapsulates all these qualities as her solemn reflection on the terrible events of the film turn into a moment of an outward affection as she hugs Tennessee; (Danny McBride) and in so doing they share the losses they have both experienced.
For all its apparent deficiencies, Ridley Scott's sense of scale and grandiosity has not lost its cinematic potency. From the wide angled shots of the Covenant's long corridors to the Pompeii esque scene of mass genocide, you have a mainstream horror picture of utterly deprived beauty. The grislier imagery (which admirably retains a fidelity to the work of HR Giger) such as Shaw's mangled form rival the repellent visual concoctions of Alien Resurrection; the only picture in the franchise that makes one feel as though they want to have a shower after watching.
In essence, Covenant represents a paradigm shift for the Alien series. The creature who travels through vents and hides in the darkest corner of the ship no longer scare us. Instead, the synthetic being and his freedom to experiment while we all sleep gets the heart beating just a little bit faster.
Yet another long-time lurker who's decided to step out of the shadows to review this filme here. And dear lord, I NEED to talk about it. There might be some spoilers ahead.
First off, full disclosure: I'm a huge fan of the original quadrilogy, which means I really, really like both Alien³ and Alien: Resurrection. I didn't like Prometheus but I've actually had a pretty fun experience when I saw it for the first time, and it was only after the movie was done that it started to fall apart for me (much unlike many of you, though, I've had a really hard time rewatching it and it most certainly did get worse with time for me). I went into this movie with some pretty low expectations. I didn't like the direction Prometheus was taking the series to and even though this was marketed as an Alien film, I was fully aware that it was going to be, at least partially, a sequel to Prometheus. All in all, I was just feeling giddy with the prospect of seing the franchise's titular creatures on the big screen for the first time along with some grisly deaths and nice Ridley Scott visuals. And possibly something as entertaining and cringe-worthy as the medpod scene from the previous movie.
The positives of A:C: The first 20 minutes or so are very solid. Up until they land on the alien planet there's some nice tension buildup and some very welcomed character moments that feel more believable than anything in Prometheus. The very ending, when a major character has just entered a sleeping pod, is quite effective. All in all, I'd say it's the one scene that properly managed to be scary, and it actually stayed with me after I left the theater. I'm quite surprised to know that the ending was supposed to be different, because the one we've got, in my opinion, is a brilliant final hook waiting for a better movie to be built around it.
Everything else was shockingly bad.
I can deal with the fact that this is ostensively a sequel to Prometheus, and the Alien is barely in it. I'd even say this would be a marginally better movie if the Big Chap was not in it at all, because boy oh boy is it completely weightless, both literally, with the bad CGI, and figuratively. The creature itself is introduced after its distant cousin (they call it a neomorph, I figure?) has already done loads and loads of damage whilst having a much more effective life cycle. The proper "Xenomorph" (god, I hate this term) feels almost benign in comparison.
Now, I'm aware that there's been lots of talk about whether they've been using puppets or not in this, and whether people exaggerate when they complain about the overuse of CGI. But dear lord, it's not just that there is obvious way too much CGI when it comes to the creatures, but the scenes with them are not even well shot! There's no attempt to hide the special effects: we see an Alien jumping around and doing all sorts of acrobatics from every possible angle in broad daylight. They've even managed to screw up the chestbuster scene with really awkward angles and dodgy effects. Some of the "neomorph" and chestbuster scene reminded me of the effects in Alien³, except that the camera lingered on them forever, which is much, much worse. The Big Chap shows up in two major action set pieces that feel like they belong in one of the Marvel Movies if they were all directed by Michael Bay. They also kind of look like Playstation 3 cutscenes.
The creatures were so terribly made that a good portion of the audience I was in was giggling whenever an attack or a birth happened. I kind of giggled too.
The movie has zero rhythm and zero suspense. All the kills are instant. I'll be damned if the shower scene lasts over two minutes. And there aren't even any jumpscares either. You just really expect an alien to impale someone, then it empales, and off to the next scene. Even the (very good, from what I could see) gore effects end up feeling like an afterthought because it's all over so quick one can barely register what's just happened. Everything is so instant that they've managed to bring back the Cup Noodles life cycle for the aliens, which EVERYONE complained about in AvP. It's not even that much of an issue because it changes the canon. It's just that it's so ludicrous that it feels like it came out of a parody. There's no willing suspension of disbelief to account for fully a grown alien in 40 seconds.
The performances are alright, with Michael Fassbender doing a good job as expected. To be honest, I'm just kind of disappointed because he didn't chew the scenery a little bit more. It would've fitted the overall B-movie vibe. The info on the origins of the Xenomorph (heh, here I am using that X word again) is not terrible, but much like all the answers we've had about the Space Jockey in Prometheus, it just feels very, very "meh". Speaking of SJ, the scene in which the giant albino civilization makes a perfect argument for the accusation that filmmakers show way too much these days. Had it been simply mentioned by one of the characters, it would end up probably making sense as a plot development. Actually seeing it, though, makes it completely ludicrous.
Oh, and the Covenant crew is very, very dumb. I think it's kind of hilarious that we tend to complain about stereotypical horror movie teenagers being so stupid when it DOES make sense that oversexed teens would be morons. Scientists in a billion dollar mission in space acting like dumb horror movie teens on the other hand is much harder to buy. And these scientists make the biologist from Prometheus look smart.
We didn't even get pretty visuals this time around! Covenant mostly looks like every single big budget Hollywood movie. Totally unremarkable. Here's how I rate the Alien films:
Alien (10)
Aliens (9,5)
Alien³ (9,0)
Alien: Resurrection (9,0)
Prometheus (5,5)
Alien vs. Predator (4,0)
Alien: Covenant (3,0) (YES, THAT BAD, it's worse than AvP)
Aliens vs. Predator Requiem (0,5) :P
Alien
Aliens
Alien 3
Alien Covenant
Alien Resurrection
Prometheus
Quote from: Butterfly on May 15, 2017, 11:59:38 PM
The performances are alright, with Michael Fassbender doing a good job as expected. To be honest, I'm just kind of disappointed because he didn't chew the scenery a little bit more. It would've fitted the overall B-movie vibe. The info on the origins of the Xenomorph (heh, here I am using that X word again) is not terrible, but much like all the answers we've had about the Space Jockey in Prometheus, it just feels very, very "meh". Speaking of SJ, the scene in which the giant albino civilization makes a perfect argument for the accusation that filmmakers show way too much these days. Had it been simply mentioned by one of the characters, it would end up probably making sense as a plot development. Actually seeing it, though, makes it completely ludicrous.
I actually think it was a good idea to show it. If one more thing is hand waived away with awful dialogue it would be absurd (it already is). Plus, Ridley apparently does not like to have the characters ask much that he doesn't plan on visually showing. If he cut that scene out, I bet he would cut out all references to it.
Put it this way, the characters arrive on an UNEXPLORED planet that is broadcasting a message sent from someone from earth. They get attacked and are saved by a robot from earth. who leads them to an entire city and civilization, proving there are alien races out there and they landed on a colonized planet. The main problem being the entire civilization is dead and petrified.
Throughout it all, the characters show no more interest than they would in a tv show that was on in the background at a party. They simply don't care and Ridley can't seem to understand why they would. If he didn't put that scene in it would simply be one more thing the characters would never ask about or reference.
Quote from: Robopadna on May 16, 2017, 12:39:00 PM
Quote from: Butterfly on May 15, 2017, 11:59:38 PM
The performances are alright, with Michael Fassbender doing a good job as expected. To be honest, I'm just kind of disappointed because he didn't chew the scenery a little bit more. It would've fitted the overall B-movie vibe. The info on the origins of the Xenomorph (heh, here I am using that X word again) is not terrible, but much like all the answers we've had about the Space Jockey in Prometheus, it just feels very, very "meh". Speaking of SJ, the scene in which the giant albino civilization makes a perfect argument for the accusation that filmmakers show way too much these days. Had it been simply mentioned by one of the characters, it would end up probably making sense as a plot development. Actually seeing it, though, makes it completely ludicrous.
I actually think it was a good idea to show it. If one more thing is hand waived away with awful dialogue it would be absurd (it already is). Plus, Ridley apparently does not like to have the characters ask much that he doesn't plan on visually showing. If he cut that scene out, I bet he would cut out all references to it.
Put it this way, the characters arrive on an UNEXPLORED planet that is broadcasting a message sent from someone from earth. They get attacked and are saved by a robot from earth. who leads them to an entire city and civilization, proving there are alien races out there and they landed on a colonized planet. The main problem being the entire civilization is dead and petrified.
Throughout it all, the characters show no more interest than they would in a tv show that was on in the background at a party. They simply don't care and Ridley can't seem to understand why they would. If he didn't put that scene in it would simply be one more thing the characters would never ask about or reference.
To be fair, if I had just witnessed a creature just burst out of my mates throat and then slaughter several of my other team members I don't think I'd care about petrified bodies either.
Besides, they may well have discussed it we just didn't need to witness itgem discussing it as it wouldn't be important to the plot.
Quote from: SGS756 on May 15, 2017, 09:24:24 PM
A covenant is an agreement that can be made between a nation or people. In the context of the new film from Ridley Scott, it's the name of the colony ship bound for a distant planet to repopulate and start a new life for humankind in the cosmos. The original Alien film was many things. Crucially, it was a narrative of feeble human choices resulting in the unveiling of a creature that acidly twisted the knife into the very notions of morality and compassion and replaced it with a savage survival instinct. This was demonstrated by way of a terrifying life cycle, that felt in equal parts- biologically credible and sexually transgressive. The aptly named Covenant continues this tradition of the horrific entangled web of events being spun by problematic judgements.
A reluctantly stern captain of faith impulsively responds to a human distress call and brashly thinks the sourced planet to be much more habitable for the two thousand colonists than a rigorously simulated and scientifically mapped out planet further out in space. The central antagonist of the picture arrogantly proclaims he loved a woman who showed him compassion and sees fit to still experiment on her for the sole purpose of curiosity. If Alien Covenant is about anything, then it is about the delusional egotism in leadership and creation.
For a film that bestows the central creature of the accoladed horror franchise to title status again, the Xenomorphs prove to be the most problematic aspect of the picture. Essentially, there is no dimension added to the creature's life cycle or a new manner in which we could perceive them.
In Aliens, the sheer multiplicity of their race come from an Alien Queen, and they function as a nightmarish subversion of a truism parents tell their children, encapsulated when Newt says to Ripley- "My mummy always said there were no monsters, no real ones, but there are." In Alien 3, the lone Xenomorph has an animalistic fury as it takes on the attributes of its non-human host resulting in the tense and frenetic point of views shots in the tail end of the picture. At the same time, the creature is seen as the embodiment of divine punishment by the prisoners of Fury 161 who create a nihilistic and cruel religion to deal with their crimes. In Alien Resurrection, there is a human/Xenomorph hybrid as Ripley's DNA is replicated and modified. Even the woeful Alien Vs Predator movies had some sense of creativity in melding both creatures into an amusingly hissing new creation complete with dreadlocks and a new set of jaws.
In Covenant, the Xenomorph have lost their majestic sense of terror that came from their ability to be simultaneously horrifying and striking in their design. Additionally, the subtext of their attacks playing on fears of rape and male pregnancy become clumsy overt text as David (Michael Fassbender) lures the unsuspecting Captain Oram (Billy Crudup) to his lair. When asked what his creations need to be successful, the android retorts in a matter of fact manner- "A Mother."
The best sequence involving the creature is when it attacks a couple during a heightened moment of passion in a running shower cubicle. Ridley Scott's framing is impeccable as the Alien is seen through a mirror as it violently lunges at the male partner. The aftermath is the Xenomorph looking as though it was kissing Upworth (Callie Hernandez) and a darkly comic moment as blood gushes over the female crew member in what seems like an ironic twist of climaxing. As good as the sequence is, it does represent a sobering moment for the series; as it seemingly sinks into the slasher movie genre waters that it once transcended so masterfully.
From the ashes of the Xenomorph's mediocrity, the android David arises to become the malevolent heart of the series. In Prometheus Fassbender's performance subverted the Pinocchio portrait of an artificially intelligent being with a seemingly aloof and obedient nature that hid ominous intentions which occasionally manifested themselves in his wry sense of humour. In Covenant, Fassbender takes David to new heights of passion and all-consuming arrogance.
However, the most striking quality that the Irish actor adds to the character is a protracted sense of wistful sadness. In many of David's exchanges with Walter (the newer android model again played by Fassbender), he expresses his love for Dr Elizabeth Shaw (Noomi Rapace) and his misery of not having her around. Even though the sentiments can be read as a ruse because he experimented on Shaw for his creations; there is still a deep-seated sense of love that went unfulfilled. (A starker reading of David's feelings of unrequited love could be read as physical and retain the sexual subtext that the series always has at its core)
The added quality presents David with a fascinating dichotomy. In the opening sequence, the character stands before Michelangelo's David sculpture as he chooses his name in view of his creator- Peter Weyland (Guy Pierce) Through the course of his conversation, David reflects on his creator's mortality and concludes that he will outlive his human master. In many ways, David believes he is a supremely perfect being who has far exceeded humanity yet still revels in the sentiments of man as embodied in his feelings for Shaw. This conflict of egotism and emotion has particular resonance when thinking of it in the context of the beings that David has created. The creation of Xenomorphs could represent a purging of this conflict in lieu of a pure instinct of survival.
As David, Fassbender channels Vincent Price's pomposity and cleverly echoes Rutger Hauer's seductively impassioned portrait of Roy Batty. Whereas, Fassbender imbues Walter with a sense of innocence and discovery that is manifested in many of the interactions he has with David. A particular noteworthy scene has Walter acknowledging the parameters of his programming after learning to play the flute. At this moment, Fassbender's subtle facial expressions of awe, wonder and reflection are endearing to watch.
Equally as compelling is Katherine Waterston's performance as Daniels who repurposes a particular facet of Sigourney Weaver's performance from Alien to interesting effect. In the 1979 picture, Weaver played Ripley with an economical stillness: her physical movements had a purpose, conviction and ultimately conveyed an assuredness about her duties aboard the Nostromo.
Waterston takes this stillness to a much more emphatic place. While her physicality is efficient, there is something also undeniably warm and embracing about it too. In a scene towards the end, Waterson wonderfully encapsulates all these qualities as her solemn reflection on the terrible events of the film turn into a moment of an outward affection as she hugs Tennessee; (Danny McBride) and in so doing they share the losses they have both experienced.
For all its apparent deficiencies, Ridley Scott's sense of scale and grandiosity has not lost its cinematic potency. From the wide angled shots of the Covenant's long corridors to the Pompeii esque scene of mass genocide, you have a mainstream horror picture of utterly deprived beauty. The grislier imagery (which admirably retains a fidelity to the work of HR Giger) such as Shaw's mangled form rival the repellent visual concoctions of Alien Resurrection; the only picture in the franchise that makes one feel as though they want to have a shower after watching.
In essence, Covenant represents a paradigm shift for the Alien series. The creature who travels through vents and hides in the darkest corner of the ship no longer scare us. Instead, the synthetic being and his freedom to experiment while we all sleep gets the heart beating just a little bit faster.
This is a wonderful review! You've given voice to a lot of feelings I had while watching it. Wheras with Prometheus, I felt the theorising afterwards wasn't really supported by the film, with this one I feel it can bear the weight very well.
I like it wears the title cleverly, too: the prinicpal antagonist is still a being, alone, in an environment it doesn't belong in, systematically wiping everything out or rebuilding it to it's own design. It's just that the Alien in question is now David.
Actually enjoyed it more than I thought I would. Certainly better than Prometheus, although I still question why we need so many movies to tell this particular story. Characters were fleshed out a lot better (except Franco's, obviously), less (and certainly not as glaring) instances of characters doing stupid shit, the Neomorphs are an interesting addition to the Alien mythology and it had a lot more tension than it's predecessor. The clear size and species difference between the Engineers and the Space Jockey in Alien will always be an issue for me, but it didn't spoil my enjoyment of this. After all, we've still got another 2-3 films before that gets definitively answered.
Can understand the criticism of the quick gestation of the chestbursters, though more with Oram than Lope tbh. Iirc, the other characters were sleeping when Lope was killed, so at least a few hours (maybe longer?) could have passed. Oram can only have been infected for a few minutes. It is a bit jarring, but I can see how it's necessary to speed up the life cycle of the Alien for the sake of the film.
Shaw's fate was disappointing, considering she was the main character in Prometheus and we didn't even get a glimpse of her in this. She wasn't exactly a Ripley level character, but I thought there would be more to her story. Daniels and Tennessee were both good characters, but it looks like they'll suffer the same fate.
I sincerely doubt any future additions to the series will ever match the quality of the first two films, but (though it's not saying much) this was definitely better than anything that's come since Aliens imo. Would probably give it 7/10 right now, though would have to see it again to be sure...
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 16, 2017, 01:10:29 PM
Quote from: Robopadna on May 16, 2017, 12:39:00 PM
Quote from: Butterfly on May 15, 2017, 11:59:38 PM
The performances are alright, with Michael Fassbender doing a good job as expected. To be honest, I'm just kind of disappointed because he didn't chew the scenery a little bit more. It would've fitted the overall B-movie vibe. The info on the origins of the Xenomorph (heh, here I am using that X word again) is not terrible, but much like all the answers we've had about the Space Jockey in Prometheus, it just feels very, very "meh". Speaking of SJ, the scene in which the giant albino civilization makes a perfect argument for the accusation that filmmakers show way too much these days. Had it been simply mentioned by one of the characters, it would end up probably making sense as a plot development. Actually seeing it, though, makes it completely ludicrous.
I actually think it was a good idea to show it. If one more thing is hand waived away with awful dialogue it would be absurd (it already is). Plus, Ridley apparently does not like to have the characters ask much that he doesn't plan on visually showing. If he cut that scene out, I bet he would cut out all references to it.
Put it this way, the characters arrive on an UNEXPLORED planet that is broadcasting a message sent from someone from earth. They get attacked and are saved by a robot from earth. who leads them to an entire city and civilization, proving there are alien races out there and they landed on a colonized planet. The main problem being the entire civilization is dead and petrified.
Throughout it all, the characters show no more interest than they would in a tv show that was on in the background at a party. They simply don't care and Ridley can't seem to understand why they would. If he didn't put that scene in it would simply be one more thing the characters would never ask about or reference.
To be fair, if I had just witnessed a creature just burst out of my mates throat and then slaughter several of my other team members I don't think I'd care about petrified bodies either.
Besides, they may well have discussed it we just didn't need to witness itgem discussing it as it wouldn't be important to the plot.
First, not everyone lost a loved one. Second, if you watched that happen and then were led into a city full of other dead people you would be EXTRA curious as to how these things died because you already know the planet has some hostile animals/environments and you also do not want to end up dead. Is it a contagious thing??? The characters certainly don't seem to care If they live or die so the audience doesn't really either.
As an audience you really DO need to see them ask these questions and discuss it. It makes the audience feel there is a connection to these characters and they are acting much the same way that normal humans react to extreme circumstances. They focus on self preservation and want the best chance to also not die. Then, when things go bad, you care when they die because they ALSO cared about what was happening to them.
As it is, you don't really care about anyone in it because no one acts much like a normal human. They are pretty much sacks of meat used to move the movie from one set piece to another. You an tell Ridley doesn't particularly care about them either since he cuts out as much character building as possible and gives anything interesting to the two androids.
In the end, it's very poor writing to not have those interactions on screen unless you really don't want your audience to care about any of your characters.
To clarify, if you just want gore and to see different ways people can suffer or die, then you don't need to care about the characters. There is no reason to. I am hoping this series actually DOES want us to care and be somewhat invested in whether or not they live or die.
In all fairness, there are some comments of "what the f**k?!" or stuff to that effect when they're walking through the Necropolis to the Citadel. But yeah, there should have been more.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 16, 2017, 04:39:35 PM
In all fairness, there are some comments of "what the f**k?!" or stuff to that effect when they're walking through the Necropolis to the Citadel. But yeah, there should have been more.
And I get that (at least it shows they aren't all emotionless robots) but if you want an audience to care, you have to have your characters act like humans and ask questions any normal human would ask in that situation (a dangerous and confusing one). And you have to show that to the audience. You can't be a lazy filmmaker.
Again, if your goal is to make a gore movie though and you are trying to have the audience view every character as a simple means to show a different violent death, then it doesn't really matter. I think it's pretty clear from these movies that isn't what Scott is trying to go for. He is just not good at it.
Quote from: Robopadna on May 16, 2017, 04:45:18 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 16, 2017, 04:39:35 PM
In all fairness, there are some comments of "what the f**k?!" or stuff to that effect when they're walking through the Necropolis to the Citadel. But yeah, there should have been more.
And I get that (at least it shows they aren't all emotionless robots) but if you want an audience to care, you have to have your characters act like humans and ask questions any normal human would ask in that situation (a dangerous and confusing one). And you have to show that to the audience. You can't be a lazy filmmaker.
Again, if your goal is to make a gore movie though and you are trying to have the audience view every character as a simple means to show a different violent death, then it doesn't really matter. I think it's pretty clear from these movies that isn't what Scott is trying to go for. He is just not good at it.
I think it would have slowed the movie down quite a bit if the characters were going to have an in-depth discussion what happened to the engineers. They didn't know what happened and we wouldn't have gotten any answers as well, so there's no point in such a scene imo. I also would have hated it if we we're going to be spoon-fed once again...it's not being lazy at all.
Come to think of it, they did swear a lot in this movie and it felt a little unnecessary but that's just nitpicking. Totally loved it and I want to see it again ASAP.
Quote from: Snake on May 16, 2017, 05:51:22 PMI think it would have slowed the movie down quite a bit if the characters were going to have an in-depth discussion what happened to the engineers.
Considering how rushed certain parts of the film felt, it could've done with a bit of slowing down to gaze at the surroundings with wonder.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 16, 2017, 05:54:52 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 16, 2017, 05:51:22 PMI think it would have slowed the movie down quite a bit if the characters were going to have an in-depth discussion what happened to the engineers.
Considering how rushed certain parts of the film felt, it could've done with a bit of slowing down to gaze at the surroundings with wonder.
I don't think it felt rushed at all, but that's just me. It's not a Stanley Kubrick movie...
Quote from: Robopadna on May 16, 2017, 12:39:00 PM
I actually think it was a good idea to show it. If one more thing is hand waived away with awful dialogue it would be absurd (it already is). Plus, Ridley apparently does not like to have the characters ask much that he doesn't plan on visually showing. If he cut that scene out, I bet he would cut out all references to it.
Put it this way, the characters arrive on an UNEXPLORED planet that is broadcasting a message sent from someone from earth. They get attacked and are saved by a robot from earth. who leads them to an entire city and civilization, proving there are alien races out there and they landed on a colonized planet. The main problem being the entire civilization is dead and petrified.
Throughout it all, the characters show no more interest than they would in a tv show that was on in the background at a party. They simply don't care and Ridley can't seem to understand why they would. If he didn't put that scene in it would simply be one more thing the characters would never ask about or reference.
My issue with the scene is that it feels way too much like a movie construct. I really didn't get a sense that the civilization existed outside of waiting for that ship to arrive. The magnitude of what's happening is so huge (one robot single handedly commiting genocide with a conveniently placed doomsday bioweapon) that it feels like it's a little too much. Basically, I think that seeing it just accentuates how ridiculous this plot point is and breaks willing suspension of disbelief.
I don't understand how showing the attack makes the fact that the characters don't seem to bother about the DEAD ALIEN CIVILIZATION that they've come across less absurd, but you're dead on about pointing this issue out.
Quote from: Snake on May 16, 2017, 05:51:22 PM
I think it would have slowed the movie down quite a bit if the characters were going to have an in-depth discussion what happened to the engineers. They didn't know what happened and we wouldn't have gotten any answers as well, so there's no point in such a scene imo. I also would have hated it if we we're going to be spoon-fed once again...it's not being lazy at all.
Come to think of it, they did swear a lot in this movie and it felt a little unnecessary but that's just nitpicking. Totally loved it and I want to see it again ASAP.
Well, if you're going to tackle all the big questions that thia movie attempts to address, then it's not really a bad idea to slow things down a tad.
Quote from: Snake on May 16, 2017, 05:51:22 PM
Quote from: Robopadna on May 16, 2017, 04:45:18 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 16, 2017, 04:39:35 PM
In all fairness, there are some comments of "what the f**k?!" or stuff to that effect when they're walking through the Necropolis to the Citadel. But yeah, there should have been more.
And I get that (at least it shows they aren't all emotionless robots) but if you want an audience to care, you have to have your characters act like humans and ask questions any normal human would ask in that situation (a dangerous and confusing one). And you have to show that to the audience. You can't be a lazy filmmaker.
Again, if your goal is to make a gore movie though and you are trying to have the audience view every character as a simple means to show a different violent death, then it doesn't really matter. I think it's pretty clear from these movies that isn't what Scott is trying to go for. He is just not good at it.
I think it would have slowed the movie down quite a bit if the characters were going to have an in-depth discussion what happened to the engineers. They didn't know what happened and we wouldn't have gotten any answers as well, so there's no point in such a scene imo. I also would have hated it if we we're going to be spoon-fed once again...it's not being lazy at all.
Come to think of it, they did swear a lot in this movie and it felt a little unnecessary but that's just nitpicking. Totally loved it and I want to see it again ASAP.
It isn't in depth at all. It is treating your characters as humans and forming some connection with the audience. It is incredibly lazy film making to leave all that out. Those are the most important pieces in establishing your characters as people the audience actually gives a crap about. It isn't spoon feeding anything. It's the basics of character development.
Scott has never been good at developing characters really (unless they are incredibly strongly written) and tends to hope the visuals take care of that for him. He is an expert at that side of things so sometimes it works. In cases like this and Prometheus, it really hasn't.
Quote from: Robopadna on May 16, 2017, 07:26:49 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 16, 2017, 05:51:22 PM
Quote from: Robopadna on May 16, 2017, 04:45:18 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 16, 2017, 04:39:35 PM
In all fairness, there are some comments of "what the f**k?!" or stuff to that effect when they're walking through the Necropolis to the Citadel. But yeah, there should have been more.
And I get that (at least it shows they aren't all emotionless robots) but if you want an audience to care, you have to have your characters act like humans and ask questions any normal human would ask in that situation (a dangerous and confusing one). And you have to show that to the audience. You can't be a lazy filmmaker.
Again, if your goal is to make a gore movie though and you are trying to have the audience view every character as a simple means to show a different violent death, then it doesn't really matter. I think it's pretty clear from these movies that isn't what Scott is trying to go for. He is just not good at it.
I think it would have slowed the movie down quite a bit if the characters were going to have an in-depth discussion what happened to the engineers. They didn't know what happened and we wouldn't have gotten any answers as well, so there's no point in such a scene imo. I also would have hated it if we we're going to be spoon-fed once again...it's not being lazy at all.
Come to think of it, they did swear a lot in this movie and it felt a little unnecessary but that's just nitpicking. Totally loved it and I want to see it again ASAP.
It isn't in depth at all. It is treating your characters as humans and forming some connection with the audience. It is incredibly lazy film making to leave all that out. Those are the most important pieces in establishing your characters as people the audience actually gives a crap about. It isn't spoon feeding anything. It's the basics of character development.
Scott has never been good at developing characters really (unless they are incredibly strongly written) and tends to hope the visuals take care of that for him. He is an expert at that side of things so sometimes it works. In cases like this and Prometheus, it really hasn't.
I felt that way about Prometheus, the only characters I was interested in were David and vickers (who was really sold short) but I cared about many of the Covenant crew.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 16, 2017, 07:51:13 PM
Quote from: Robopadna on May 16, 2017, 07:26:49 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 16, 2017, 05:51:22 PM
Quote from: Robopadna on May 16, 2017, 04:45:18 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 16, 2017, 04:39:35 PM
In all fairness, there are some comments of "what the f**k?!" or stuff to that effect when they're walking through the Necropolis to the Citadel. But yeah, there should have been more.
And I get that (at least it shows they aren't all emotionless robots) but if you want an audience to care, you have to have your characters act like humans and ask questions any normal human would ask in that situation (a dangerous and confusing one). And you have to show that to the audience. You can't be a lazy filmmaker.
Again, if your goal is to make a gore movie though and you are trying to have the audience view every character as a simple means to show a different violent death, then it doesn't really matter. I think it's pretty clear from these movies that isn't what Scott is trying to go for. He is just not good at it.
I think it would have slowed the movie down quite a bit if the characters were going to have an in-depth discussion what happened to the engineers. They didn't know what happened and we wouldn't have gotten any answers as well, so there's no point in such a scene imo. I also would have hated it if we we're going to be spoon-fed once again...it's not being lazy at all.
Come to think of it, they did swear a lot in this movie and it felt a little unnecessary but that's just nitpicking. Totally loved it and I want to see it again ASAP.
It isn't in depth at all. It is treating your characters as humans and forming some connection with the audience. It is incredibly lazy film making to leave all that out. Those are the most important pieces in establishing your characters as people the audience actually gives a crap about. It isn't spoon feeding anything. It's the basics of character development.
Scott has never been good at developing characters really (unless they are incredibly strongly written) and tends to hope the visuals take care of that for him. He is an expert at that side of things so sometimes it works. In cases like this and Prometheus, it really hasn't.
I felt that way about Prometheus, the only characters I was interested in were David and vickers (who was really sold short) but I cared about many of the Covenant crew.
I did not, at all. It seems to be a general consensus on reviews that they didn't attach much of anything to the characters either and saw them as things to kill. While it is dependent on the viewer, I think there is enough consensus to say Ridley absolutely could have done a much better job on that end.
Quote from: Robopadna on May 16, 2017, 08:00:38 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 16, 2017, 07:51:13 PM
Quote from: Robopadna on May 16, 2017, 07:26:49 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 16, 2017, 05:51:22 PM
Quote from: Robopadna on May 16, 2017, 04:45:18 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 16, 2017, 04:39:35 PM
In all fairness, there are some comments of "what the f**k?!" or stuff to that effect when they're walking through the Necropolis to the Citadel. But yeah, there should have been more.
And I get that (at least it shows they aren't all emotionless robots) but if you want an audience to care, you have to have your characters act like humans and ask questions any normal human would ask in that situation (a dangerous and confusing one). And you have to show that to the audience. You can't be a lazy filmmaker.
Again, if your goal is to make a gore movie though and you are trying to have the audience view every character as a simple means to show a different violent death, then it doesn't really matter. I think it's pretty clear from these movies that isn't what Scott is trying to go for. He is just not good at it.
I think it would have slowed the movie down quite a bit if the characters were going to have an in-depth discussion what happened to the engineers. They didn't know what happened and we wouldn't have gotten any answers as well, so there's no point in such a scene imo. I also would have hated it if we we're going to be spoon-fed once again...it's not being lazy at all.
Come to think of it, they did swear a lot in this movie and it felt a little unnecessary but that's just nitpicking. Totally loved it and I want to see it again ASAP.
It isn't in depth at all. It is treating your characters as humans and forming some connection with the audience. It is incredibly lazy film making to leave all that out. Those are the most important pieces in establishing your characters as people the audience actually gives a crap about. It isn't spoon feeding anything. It's the basics of character development.
Scott has never been good at developing characters really (unless they are incredibly strongly written) and tends to hope the visuals take care of that for him. He is an expert at that side of things so sometimes it works. In cases like this and Prometheus, it really hasn't.
I felt that way about Prometheus, the only characters I was interested in were David and vickers (who was really sold short) but I cared about many of the Covenant crew.
I did not, at all. It seems to be a general consensus on reviews that they didn't attach much of anything to the characters either and saw them as things to kill. While it is dependent on the viewer, I think there is enough consensus to say Ridley absolutely could have done a much better job on that end.
I think Ridley is right on the mark when it comes to character-building. The first hour of Covenant is nothing but. And I don't think he's
never been good at it. What about Ripley, Ash, Dallas, Brett, Parker, Maximus Aurelius Decimus (lol)? They are some of the most iconic and memorable characters ever in movie-history!
Quote from: Robopadna on May 16, 2017, 08:00:38 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 16, 2017, 07:51:13 PM
Quote from: Robopadna on May 16, 2017, 07:26:49 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 16, 2017, 05:51:22 PM
Quote from: Robopadna on May 16, 2017, 04:45:18 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 16, 2017, 04:39:35 PM
In all fairness, there are some comments of "what the f**k?!" or stuff to that effect when they're walking through the Necropolis to the Citadel. But yeah, there should have been more.
And I get that (at least it shows they aren't all emotionless robots) but if you want an audience to care, you have to have your characters act like humans and ask questions any normal human would ask in that situation (a dangerous and confusing one). And you have to show that to the audience. You can't be a lazy filmmaker.
Again, if your goal is to make a gore movie though and you are trying to have the audience view every character as a simple means to show a different violent death, then it doesn't really matter. I think it's pretty clear from these movies that isn't what Scott is trying to go for. He is just not good at it.
I think it would have slowed the movie down quite a bit if the characters were going to have an in-depth discussion what happened to the engineers. They didn't know what happened and we wouldn't have gotten any answers as well, so there's no point in such a scene imo. I also would have hated it if we we're going to be spoon-fed once again...it's not being lazy at all.
Come to think of it, they did swear a lot in this movie and it felt a little unnecessary but that's just nitpicking. Totally loved it and I want to see it again ASAP.
It isn't in depth at all. It is treating your characters as humans and forming some connection with the audience. It is incredibly lazy film making to leave all that out. Those are the most important pieces in establishing your characters as people the audience actually gives a crap about. It isn't spoon feeding anything. It's the basics of character development.
Scott has never been good at developing characters really (unless they are incredibly strongly written) and tends to hope the visuals take care of that for him. He is an expert at that side of things so sometimes it works. In cases like this and Prometheus, it really hasn't.
I felt that way about Prometheus, the only characters I was interested in were David and vickers (who was really sold short) but I cared about many of the Covenant crew.
I did not, at all. It seems to be a general consensus on reviews that they didn't attach much of anything to the characters either and saw them as things to kill. While it is dependent on the viewer, I think there is enough consensus to say Ridley absolutely could have done a much better job on that end.
Beg to differ, I have read plenty of people saying that the cast got character beats and moments. The first 40 odd minutes of the film is all about character building in my view. Ridley did a great job.
Character building was one of the strengths of Covenant for me. You're never going to get massive backstory for characters in this type of film, but I thought Ridley did a good job in taking time to establish at least most of the crew...
Quote from: ReluctantNerd on May 13, 2017, 08:36:24 PM
Watched it yesterday and to my surprise I liked it a lot. I think Ridley really went all out on this one and he really gave us f*cking aliens...
Spoiler
While the movie didn't exactly clean up all of Prometheus' mess it managed to make me forget about it by just being fast and furious. David explains that the black goo is volatile and came in many forms, good enough for me, on with the show. This movie is cruel, nihilistic and very self aware. I think the birth of the xenomorph scene, with it's little "I love you daddy" dance was a cool meta joke, Ridley saying: "you want it? Here it is!". The thing stretches triumphantly and even seems to smile. It's grotesque in the best possible way. David breaking the fourth wall with his flute, his campy dialogue, his chamber of horrors, it's all B-movie madness and I'm actually surprised all this craziness ended up on the big screen in a blockbuster like this. And you just get hit over the head, or should I say on the nose right from the start with it's creation theme, starting with David and Weyland's conversation and continuing with David's megalomaniac adolescent speeches. In many ways this movie is probably at least as ridiculous as Prometheus but while I can't stand that movie I didn't mind those aspects here. Someone rated this movie earlier in WTF's, well I'll give it 8 out of 10 WTF's then. It's Ridley cynically doing his job as ordered by the studios and not giving a f**k, just getting on with it and throwing in some of his pet themes here and there. And it works for me, strangely. It's a dark fantasy film, not sci fi, and I'm OK with that.
Great review man! Laughed so hard it almost brought tears in my eyes!
I saw it for the third time, and now i really love it.
Not perfect, i need more Engineers, but for me it´s a great movie.
Quote from: John Doe on May 17, 2017, 12:00:30 AM
I saw it for the third time, and now i really love it.
Not perfect, i need more Engineers, but for me it´s a great movie.
Good to hear! A good friend of mine watched it and she said it's her favorite in the series, above even Prometheus and Aliens, which are her two stand-bys, typically.
Quote from: John Doe on May 17, 2017, 12:00:30 AM
I saw it for the third time, and now i really love it.
Not perfect, i need more Engineers, but for me it´s a great movie.
That's interesting as you were one of the guys who really made it clear you didn't like it after the first and second viewing I think. I am super hyped and while I got nervous when there were a few very negative reviews, it is very encouraging that more and more people seem to appreciate the movie after repeated viewings.
Quote from: John Doe on May 17, 2017, 12:00:30 AM
I saw it for the third time, and now i really love it.
Not perfect, i need more Engineers, but for me it´s a great movie.
glad to hear it, but out of curiosity what changed? You were pretty outspoken that you thought it was a unholy abomination...
Quote from: salomonj on May 17, 2017, 02:19:20 AM
Quote from: John Doe on May 17, 2017, 12:00:30 AM
I saw it for the third time, and now i really love it.
Not perfect, i need more Engineers, but for me it´s a great movie.
glad to hear it, but out of curiosity what changed? You were pretty outspoken that you thought it was a unholy abomination...
A friend of mine in France has a similar experience where he was really disappointed initially, rewatched it and now loves it. His reasoning was he had to just accept it being a dark, weird movie and he enjoyed it more.
Ive seen Covenant four times now and it gets better every time i see it.
What i would say for anyone who's only seen it once but is on the fence about it, give it another go. First time i saw it i loved it but there were a few of scenes i wasn't sure about but on a second viewing they did not bother at all. I think first time round you have such high expectations but after that you know what is going to happen and you've slept on it and thought about it so you can approach the film from a different angle.
For me its a 10 out of 10 film.
give money to me and i will watch second time (for local dub)
Quote from: SPECIAL FORCES on May 10, 2017, 10:29:14 AM
For those who watched the movie,are the alien cgi better than those from the trailers?
Like the cgi on the tracking clip.The alien feels weightless while moving.
Did they correct it?
Same question about the shot with the neomorph opening its mouth.Were they unfinished shots used in the trailers?
Unequal at time, some animations felt nicely done while others lacked a good pass of polish.
Same thing concerning the Matte Painting which is surprising when it's one of the best thing they nailed in Prometheus.
It's likely to be due to very tight scheduled, Outsourcing to Australian VFX Company and MPC that probably used its newly opened Montreal Facility for tax rebates.
I've never understood the complain about the neomorph mouth opening, it's the nature of the shot itself that doesn't feel realistic (and is of course emphasized for the camera to get swallowed) rather than an animation problem.
Quote from: Le Celticant on May 17, 2017, 07:27:39 AM
Quote from: SPECIAL FORCES on May 10, 2017, 10:29:14 AM
For those who watched the movie,are the alien cgi better than those from the trailers?
Like the cgi on the tracking clip.The alien feels weightless while moving.
Did they correct it?
Same question about the shot with the neomorph opening its mouth.Were they unfinished shots used in the trailers?
Unequal at time, some animations felt nicely done while others lacked a good pass of polish.
Same thing concerning the Matte Painting which is surprising when it's one of the best thing they nailed in Prometheus.
It's likely to be due to very tight scheduled, Outsourcing to Australian VFX Company and MPC that probably used its newly opened Montreal Facility for tax rebates.
I've never understood the complain about the neomorph mouth opening, it's the nature of the shot itself that doesn't feel realistic (and is of course emphasized for the camera to get swallowed) rather than an animation problem.
Does that neomorph shot look as cheesy in the final movie as it did in the trailer?
Quote from: salomonj on May 17, 2017, 02:19:20 AM
Quote from: John Doe on May 17, 2017, 12:00:30 AM
I saw it for the third time, and now i really love it.
Not perfect, i need more Engineers, but for me it´s a great movie.
glad to hear it, but out of curiosity what changed? You were pretty outspoken that you thought it was a unholy abomination...
After first showing i liked it: 6 / 10.
After second showing, same problems: 6 /10.
But seeeing for the third time i didn´t need more of Shaw, now i like this first evolution of teh Xeno (i prefer a man on a suit or puppet, but now i apreciate this new beast), it´s strong, it´s fast, it´s a killer monster. I hope to see an evolution to the classical Giger Xeno.
I still think Noomi was a better choice than Katherine, but it´s ok.
I love the beginning with Peter Weyland and David (no music), i love the neo birth and specially i love Michael Fassbender as David/Walter. It´s a movie about him, about his desires, about creation and it has so many thinks to study after multiples views.
7´5 /10.
Quote from: John Doe on May 17, 2017, 09:43:14 AMI still think Noomi was a better choice than Katherine, but it´s ok.
Really? I far preferred Katherine as a leading lady. Noomi seemed to be hampered by the fact she was acting in a second language, it really hurt her performance at times.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 17, 2017, 09:45:07 AM
Quote from: John Doe on May 17, 2017, 09:43:14 AMI still think Noomi was a better choice than Katherine, but it´s ok.
Really? I far preferred Katherine as a leading lady. Noomi seemed to be hampered by the fact she was acting in a second language, it really hurt her performance at times.
I really, really didn't like Noomi in Prometheus but Katherine Waterston really sold it for me. However this does make me understand how some people felt about what they did to Shaw, I'll be gutted if they do the same thing to Daniels.
examining the poll it is interesting to see that 80 percent of us voted 3.5 stars and upwards. .so only 20 disliked it. .even better than the tomato meters 77 percent. .i hope this all translate's into a decent box office result!
Saw it tonight. Decent, but think I liked Prometheus slightly better. Have not read many reviews or forum threads but quickly
Liked -
The new Xeno ( as in the white one)
The first two thirds of the movie
David/Walter
New Burst Scenes
Didn't like -
Lack of tension build up, pay off was too quick
AVP pacing
Whole third act was garbage
Daniels inability to see what the entire audience was thinking despite clearly having doubts
Ending seemed kind of pointless.
6 out of 10.
I watched it for the second time earlier tonight and in the week since my first viewing I'm fairly sure they've removed the "you blow and I'll do the fingering" line that got such a laugh. Did I imagine that or has anyone else noticed the same thing?
Quote from: Ilikegriping on May 17, 2017, 08:02:28 PM
I watched it for the second time earlier tonight and in the week since my first viewing I'm fairly sure they've removed the "you blow and I'll do the fingering" line that got such a laugh. Did I imagine that or has anyone else noticed the same thing?
They haven't removed it. Why would they?
I've seen the movie. I will quote one IMDB user: "There's actually a great movie hiding in here. What brings it down is an extremely predictable structure." Well I myself think this movie was too short! Middle part and the ending in particular! Michael Fassbender really is great addition to the Alien universe (stellar performance) but there are some worrisome inconsistencies and discrepancies regarding Covenants premise and its place in the whole Alien universe. Major questions are answered (in time many of those who claim opposite will find those answers). Is David the ultimate creator of Xenomorph as we know it from Alien, does lv 442 have something to do with David, does the story of Xenomorphs have deeper roots or everything begins with David? I dont think so and there are great hints. There is a lot of space for everything to make sense and to be in accordance with Alien plot.
I myself have some ideas how it could all fit very well, with a bit of imagination the next one could be really revelatory movie.
What I love about the movie:
DAVID!!! Brilliant performance and love the interactions of the two androids. Weird stuff.
I also loved all the philosophical aspects and all the literary references. (Again some
obvious mythologcal references)
Visuals are good (But Prometheus was better), many art references to be analysed.
Love the leads - Daniels and Tennesse against the Satan (David) in the next movie. Better characters and performances.
Love the ending scene with David and Das Rheingold ;D
Music!
Bad things: Too short middle and end part. Thats what happens when you need to make a movie you want and you know you cant because you dont have enough money. Those compromises you make will always cost you....
This movie was obviously not rushed, I would say it was comprimed. Ridley probably thought, lets give them what they want, that will make some serious money and I will have enough money for the next one. Then I will tell the whole story as I want it and end the shit in some weird manner or perthaps open some seriously feraky doors for many alien movies to come.
Dont like how they wanted to recycle Alien premise which is ultimately a core of Covenant.
My rating: 8 with a big minus
Ridley, you need to be bolder with the next one!
After the mouthburster, how long does the grass attack last?
Quote from: salomonj on May 18, 2017, 02:09:46 AM
After the mouthburster, how long does the grass attack last?
About 2 minutes, maybe not even that. That's generally one of the problems I had with the movie, there's a lot of potential for tense pant shitting scenes but ultimately they just move on after a scuffle to the next thing.
Quote from: Ingwar on May 17, 2017, 08:12:38 PM
Quote from: Ilikegriping on May 17, 2017, 08:02:28 PM
I watched it for the second time earlier tonight and in the week since my first viewing I'm fairly sure they've removed the "you blow and I'll do the fingering" line that got such a laugh. Did I imagine that or has anyone else noticed the same thing?
They haven't removed it. Why would they?
A minor gripe about an otherwise great scene.
Loved it, 10/10. As good as the first Alien and Aliens.
Spoiler
Would've preferred a serpentine chestburster instead of a mini-alien, but that's not really a big deal. Was anyone else expecting the chestburster to do a little dance after raising it's arms, lol?
Still thinking that David recreated the Xenomorph using an ancient Engineer recipe (unless I missed it and it was mentioned in the movie?)
Anyways, great movie, great characters and I really liked the Neomorph and Xenomorph.
Quote from: Ilikegriping on May 17, 2017, 08:02:28 PM
I watched it for the second time earlier tonight and in the week since my first viewing I'm fairly sure they've removed the "you blow and I'll do the fingering" line that got such a laugh. Did I imagine that or has anyone else noticed the same thing?
There is no way they would have done that. If the scene made it in, it is in.
Yeah, I really don't think they'd alter the film mid-run. Between press screenings and release, or later on home video, sure, but not while it's actually showing in cinemas.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 18, 2017, 12:43:26 PM
Yeah, I really don't think they'd alter the film mid-run. Between press screenings and release, or later on home video, sure, but not while it's actually showing in cinemas.
Seriously, the sheer logistics and cost of having to replace every single reel or HD with the new cut of the movie would far outweigh anything. There isn't even a backlash to this, just some audience members laughing.
There would have to be something horrendously offensive that had protestors marching and boycotting seeing the movie (in which case they also probably wouldn't do it but just pull the movie instead).
Movie is weak. As a movie itself and as a horror too and as an alien film as well.
Quote from: szkoki on May 18, 2017, 07:36:58 PM
Movie is weak. As a movie itself and as a horror too and as an alien film as well.
Man...the least you could do is explain why you didn't like it and try to back up your opinion with some valid and reasonable arguments...
Hey guys, long time lurker. Just saw alien covenant and decided to post an opinion.
I have seen alien at age 7 for the first time and been a fan of the franchise since age 13. After watching the movie i really think that ridley should pass the directional torch to "new blood". He still has the magic eye for visual and the overall idea of the movie is very good. But the implication of those ideas is poor, the pacing of the movie is too fast, the use of the characters is all wrong. The process of their decision making is not fit for trained crew of astronauts and soldiers. There is not a single logical decision or behaviour in the movie. I really believe that this script should have been handeld by another director. wasted oppertunity, nice sci fi movie but not even close to the standards of the first three.
- Its starts of strong and well but falls flat finally.
- The way the Covenant stumbles upon the signal is the über randomness once again just like Prometheus find the pyramid. Lazy story writing and directing.
- The movie is a complete rip off in many ways of Alien/Aliens just to give you that sense of nostalgia feeling. Just like Jurassic World tried to do it to fool the audiance or Star Wars 7.
- Talking about stupid characters...i mean why on Earth Oram did what David told him right after he wanted to shoot him? Lazy storytelling and directing again. VERY LAZY. So said because Billy did an amazing job on the character. Not even talking about Rosenthal "BRB" moment. And of course she cleans her wounds with the water of an infected planet. Plus nobody is suspicius about David, no ,no...
- After David shows up...it just like Scott would walk out in front of the theater and would say "Sorry guys but f**k alien and the alien universe this will be a Blade Runner prequel/sequel/tie in about creator and creation". Lets face it, in the end he directed the script so not all on the screenwriters.
- Davids creating the xenomorph is utter BS. Even Scott admitted it he did it. Now thats causing serious trouble in the time line for Alien with the ancient ship and for Prometheus as well with the Alien dome.
- Killing of Shaw was weak and lazy story telling once again. While killing off Hicks and Newt served a purpose there is nothing here.
- Viral marketing and trailers spoiled heavily the somewhat okayish twists as well.
- They showed too much the creatures, they released the tension in every 2 mins with that.
I came to the theater to see Alien not Blade Runner in the end and it wasnt even a well written well directed movie.
Best thing was about this movie the new soundtrack bit and the neomorph part.
LIFE IS A MUCH MUCH BETTER ALIEN MOVIE IN 2017!
Quote from: szkoki on May 18, 2017, 09:37:24 PM
Now thats causing serious trouble in the time line for Alien with the ancient ship and for Prometheus as well with the Alien dome.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure that David saw the alien-shaped inscription in the ship in Prometheus. We can always fanwank that he used it as an inspiration when he designed the creature. Granted, it's an incredibly dumb idea, but oh well... :p
I just cant believe they cant top Alien3 for 20+ yrs now. Which was a studio disaster after all. Shocking.
Fox need to get rid of Ridley...sad but true or hire REALLY REALLY GOOD WRITERS. Where Ridley cant screw up the story.
Quote from: szkoki on May 18, 2017, 09:37:24 PM
- Its starts of strong and well but falls flat finally.
- The way the Covenant stumbles upon the signal is the über randomness once again just like Prometheus find the pyramid. Lazy story writing and directing.
- The movie is a complete rip off in many ways of Alien/Aliens just to give you that sense of nostalgia feeling. Just like Jurassic World tried to do it to fool the audiance or Star Wars 7.
- Talking about stupid characters...i mean why on Earth Oram did what David told him right after he wanted to shoot him? Lazy storytelling and directing again. VERY LAZY. So said because Billy did an amazing job on the character. Not even talking about Rosenthal "BRB" moment. And of course she cleans her wounds with the water of an infected planet. Plus nobody is suspicius about David, no ,no...
- After David shows up...it just like Scott would walk out in front of the theater and would say "Sorry guys but f**k alien and the alien universe this will be a Blade Runner prequel/sequel/tie in about creator and creation". Lets face it, in the end he directed the script so not all on the screenwriters.
- Davids creating the xenomorph is utter BS. Even Scott admitted it he did it. Now thats causing serious trouble in the time line for Alien with the ancient ship and for Prometheus as well with the Alien dome.
- Killing of Shaw was weak and lazy story telling once again. While killing off Hicks and Newt served a purpose there is nothing here.
- Viral marketing and trailers spoiled heavily the somewhat okayish twists as well.
- They showed too much the creatures, they released the tension in every 2 mins with that.
I came to the theater to see Alien not Blade Runner in the end and it wasnt even a well written well directed movie.
Best thing was about this movie the new soundtrack bit and the neomorph part.
LIFE IS A MUCH MUCH BETTER ALIEN MOVIE IN 2017!
-because...(insert arguments here).
-Finding an alien temple almost immediately on an immense and vast planet is totally different than stumbling accross a signal that can be received from a million miles away. If that is one of your gripes with this film you should per definition also hate Alien.
-Because he was curious and wanted to know what was inside the egg. It's a nod to the original, obviously. Rosenthal is just a dumb broad who thinks she's at a tea party with Nanny McPhee. Of course she shouldn't have wondered off alone but hey, at least she got what she deserved.
-The franchise has always been about aliens and androids so I don't see any problems here.
-Ridley isn't done yet with this series so maybe you should wait untill next movie before saying stuff like this.
- Shaw was annoying as f*ck so good riddens. And what purpose was served killing Hicks and Newt? Although I love the movie, it's one of my biggest gripes with Alien 3.
-What can I say, you have yourself to blame for watching it all and should have stayed away from any promotional material for the film.
-Isn't that why you wanted to see this movie in the first place? To see aliens?
Life ripped off Aliennuff said.
Quote from: Snake on May 18, 2017, 10:17:23 PM
Quote from: szkoki on May 18, 2017, 09:37:24 PM
- Its starts of strong and well but falls flat finally.
- The way the Covenant stumbles upon the signal is the über randomness once again just like Prometheus find the pyramid. Lazy story writing and directing.
- The movie is a complete rip off in many ways of Alien/Aliens just to give you that sense of nostalgia feeling. Just like Jurassic World tried to do it to fool the audiance or Star Wars 7.
- Talking about stupid characters...i mean why on Earth Oram did what David told him right after he wanted to shoot him? Lazy storytelling and directing again. VERY LAZY. So said because Billy did an amazing job on the character. Not even talking about Rosenthal "BRB" moment. And of course she cleans her wounds with the water of an infected planet. Plus nobody is suspicius about David, no ,no...
- After David shows up...it just like Scott would walk out in front of the theater and would say "Sorry guys but f**k alien and the alien universe this will be a Blade Runner prequel/sequel/tie in about creator and creation". Lets face it, in the end he directed the script so not all on the screenwriters.
- Davids creating the xenomorph is utter BS. Even Scott admitted it he did it. Now thats causing serious trouble in the time line for Alien with the ancient ship and for Prometheus as well with the Alien dome.
- Killing of Shaw was weak and lazy story telling once again. While killing off Hicks and Newt served a purpose there is nothing here.
- Viral marketing and trailers spoiled heavily the somewhat okayish twists as well.
- They showed too much the creatures, they released the tension in every 2 mins with that.
I came to the theater to see Alien not Blade Runner in the end and it wasnt even a well written well directed movie.
Best thing was about this movie the new soundtrack bit and the neomorph part.
LIFE IS A MUCH MUCH BETTER ALIEN MOVIE IN 2017!
-because...(insert arguments here).
-Finding an alien temple almost immediately on an immense and vast planet is totally different than stumbling accross a signal that can be received from a million miles away. If that is one of your gripes with this film you should per definition also hate Alien.
-Because he was curious and wanted to know what was inside the egg. It's a nod to the original, obviously. Rosenthal is just a dumb broad who thinks she's at a tea party with Nanny McPhee. Of course she shouldn't have wondered off alone but hey, at least she got what she deserved.
-The franchise has always been about aliens and androids so I don't see any problems here.
-Ridley isn't done yet with this series so maybe you should wait untill next movie before saying stuff like this.
- Shaw was annoying as f*ck so good riddens. And what purpose was served killing Hicks and Newt? Although I love the movie, it's one of my biggest gripes with Alien 3.
-What can I say, you have yourself to blame for watching it all and should have stayed away from any promotional material for the film.
-Isn't that why you wanted to see this movie in the first place? To see aliens?
Life ripped off Alien
nuff said.
i think you just try to reason everything because you liked Covenant a lot :)
Wait for next movie of Scott? You mean the 3rd movie? :D I wonder what kind of movie he will make next time after receiving all the negative comments on this one too. Because he changed his mind after Prometheus on the reviews.
As for the signal no...the neutrino burst was too convenient for the plot.
And no i wouldnt put my face into any alien life form after an evil robot who killed half of my crew tells me created all these by killing others. And i dont know where do you get this about Rosenthal..that character had 2 lines in the whole movie....
The death of Hicks and Newt set up the sacrafice of Ripley even more. Alien3 is still a great character drama.
And no a trailer shouldnt spoil a movie. Check old trailers and nowdays i cant believe you try to reason with this as well :D
I love Alien3 but i admit it has it flaws, BIG ones. One thing to like something and one thing to fanboy. And yes Life ripped of Alien much better than Covenant or Prometheus did. Ridley doesnt even know what hes doing at this point.
I don't have a problem with the neutrino burst leading to the crew discovering Shaw's signal.
It's the catalyst for the events to unwind, which emulates real life. A lot of people find themselves facing situations, they wouldn't have found themselves in, had a random event not occurred.
@Alien³
Yeah i agree that was the least laziest plot device in the movie...unlike going off for having a cigarette, putting my face into small alien eggs, going off alone cleaing during alien attack, putting my face into giant alien eggs :D
https://youtu.be/Yov9SzmpwjE?t=12
Long-time gestating, first time bursting (onto the forum)... Here's my thoughts on Covenant.
Overall, I liked it. I really enjoyed the first half – I thought it created a dark tone from the first events we see aboard the Covenant, built a good level of tension and expectation, and had the right balance between Prometheus elements and moving the story into a more familiar 'Alien' film. However, like many, I was left a bit underwhelmed by the later part, especially the last act with the protomorph/xenomorph.
First half
I loved the inclusion of familiar musical elements from Alien in the Covenant score. Yeah, it wasn't very subtle but it worked in building the excitement and expectation, especially in the cut from the prologue to the title sequence and introduction of the colony ship.
I thought there was sufficient character building early on among the Covenant crew members. They weren't as naturalistic as the Nostromo crew or have dialogue as snappy as the Colonial Marines, and were not as distinctive as the prisoners of Fury 161 (joke!), but I bought into them.
I particularly felt for Oram who I thought was a tragic figure: struggling to take on leadership (but not shirking the responsibility), feeling guilt at the grave consequences of his decision-making and then ultimately falling into a trap. Yep, the writers could have done better to justify why he would allow himself to be led by David into that trap despite showing suspicion of him. One way I justified it in my mind was that he thought he was in control in that situation (he had the weapon) and, in an effort to prove himself as a leader, he would get answers from David as to what was going on and take them back to the group.
Spoiler
I also wonder whether, instead of suffering the chestbursting almost immediately upon waking up, it would have been interesting to see Oram be told what was going to happen by David and have to deal with that knowledge and the danger it would represent to the rest of the group.
On the issue of the chestburster and the whole strange tone of it, I'm not sure how I feel about it on first viewing. In Ridley's defence, maybe he was trying to do something completely different with it, knowing that he can't recapture the shock and disgust value of the original Kane birth scene? It felt somehow celebratory rather than frightening.
The neomorph sequences were great – moved well from tension to horror to wreckless panic, and conveyed the sheer viciousness of the creature from the moment of its birth. At one point, I thought we might see one squeeze through a gap in a wall like what I think was described of one of the creatures in the abandoned Jon Spaihts script.
Second halfI agree with most reviewers here that the pace of the second half was too fast and the eventual showdown with the xenomorph was disappointing. There was no time to see the Covenant crew explore what was happening to them. I don't mean they needed to sit around and expound on the meaning of everything, but once creatures started attacking, I don't remember them asking questions about the things they were seeing or how they could be dealt with, as happened in the original Alien films. Mainly, I think this would have lent some sense of awe to the eventual appearance of the xenomorph that I think was missing, as nice as it was to see a version of it back on the big screen. There didn't seem to be much attempt by the writers to develop the mythology of the xenomorph, and as far as the remainder of the crew were concerned, it was just another weird creature that needed to be dealt with.
I did like the very end scenes in the film.
Spoiler
OK, it wasn't a massive surprise to find out it was David, but the thought of Daniels being sent to sleep at the very point she realised the full terror of the situation did stick with me – that will be a hypersleep full of bad dreams!
Anyway, the film definitely left me thinking, and wanting to re-watch it to see if my view of the second half changes.
Ranking
Alien / Aliens
Alien 3
Alien: Covenant
Prometheus
Alien: Resurrection
Long time forum lurker here. Just watched the damn movie.
My capsule review is: 4/10. Utter crap.
My actual review: I am a total fan of the franchise (1,2,3) since I was kid. I even liked Prometheus to some extent. Reading the forums before watching the movie certainly didn't help...but still... There was no tension whatsoever, no scare jumps, no atmosphere, nothing. At least Prometheus had that sinister tone all over it. The visuals were great, but still not better than Prometheus. The creature's CGI was laughable. The story was falling apart after 60min in. A lot of cringeworthy moments...like David kissing walter after teaching him how to play the flute.
- laughable CGI of the creatures, especially the birth of the neomorph
- fast and furious type of action with cables and everything
- no tension, buildup, there were even no scare jumps
- mini alien raising hands
- androids kissing
- flute lessons
- everything that happened in the dome is total borefest.
- ultra messy third act
- xeno view
- the hunting and killing of the xeno is boring and predictable
- ditching all the questions that were left open from Prometheus
I can't think of any positive thing. Maybe David explaining how Walter can't create (the flute I know...)
Where Ridley wanted to go with this? It's half disabled Prometheus sequel with a few CGI xeno disasters thrown in.
Seems like Ridley lost his balls and creative mojo a long time ago.
BTW.. I'm not a hater. I love the franchise to death, but this movie is a total abomination. The worst part is that movies like this and AVP are shitting on the entire franchise...
To make an Alien movie you need:
- a scary dark planet
- scary dark corridors
- a terrified not so dumb crew with an android
- facehuggers that two persons can barely remove from somebody's face
- a practical big chap that lurks in the dark
- a pinch of unexplained misterious gigersque entities.
So, I got to see it a second time in London today ( amazingly given the time and location I ended up being the only person in the whole thing, got to see it with a whole theatre to myself, lying down on a couch, I will remember that for a long time ;D ), so I can now give a proper review of the movie.
We can criticise Rotten tomatoes all we like, the fact is that 75/78% is very much what this movie deserves.
This is a big step up from Prometheus. Apart from the overall idea of "travelling the universe to meet our maker", the only truly satisfying piece of Prometheus was the Shaw abortion scene. Everything else in the movie was ok at best, but mostly extremely frustrating. Covenant is very satisfying in many places, and occasionally frustrating, which makes for a better experience.
I have a few gripes with the movie. I'm going to list them first, but I want to say now that none of these mean the movie is bad or even mediocre. They just make the movie "good" instead of perfect. It keeps it below the level of the original two Alien movies, and it's a shame because clearly the potential was there for a slightly better movie. As it stands, Covenant is still a good movie with plenty to enjoy without reservations.
So, the gripes.
- That CGI in the neomorph birth scene is just not ok. Not in 2017, not in a franchise as important as this one, not with that budget, not with that much time to work on it. I have read people lament on how CG was painted onto practical effect, but I disagree. It works perfectly well in most of the movie. It just doesn't work when they CG-ed it from scratch. The newborn neomorph attacking Ejogo's character... that scene took me out of the movie completely, it was just extremely uneven, verging sometimes on the extremely bad. In the same scene ( the whole med-bay sequence ), I absolutely fail to understand Faris' reasoning for locking Ejogo's character in the room. It makes ZERO sense. She gets sprayed in the face by contaminated blood, so quarantine for everybody but her makes no sense, and it results in Ejogo's and Faris' death making no sense. Very frustrating because in my opinion up to this scene the movie had been PERFECT for a full hour on many levels.
- The last act. I don't get it. Such a well thought-out, storyboarded movie... And then, the last act, so unfocused, so messy to follow in the scenes that should have been the most important. On first viewing the dispatch of the first Alien made no sense to me. It worked slightly better on the second viewing, but it's still a messy piece of film-making. Similarly the lead-up to the final terraforming bay finale worked better the second time around, BUT that final release of the trucks with Daniels dodging the truck and the Alien at the last moment felt a bit forced. Forget "a bit". It felt really forced, and not only forced but way too quick. It's just a really messy piece of action, but how can you manage to f**k up the most important scene of your movie... really frustrating.
So. That said.
The positives.
There are long stretches when the movie is not only ok like Prometheus could be in its best moments, but also deeply satisfying as a cinematic experience ( which Prometheus really wasn't ).
Personally, in that respect the second viewing confirmed the first : the whole first hour is an incredible movie. There is nothing I don't like about it. I like all the characters, I like the prologue, I like the build up, I like the mysteries, I like Daniels' backstory and grief ( I cried with her ), I like the sails, I like the discovery and exploration of the planet. That whole hour is some of the best film-making I've ever witnessed in cinema. It made me as immensely happy the second time as it had done the first time.
Shame that the magic had to be undone with the neomorph birth scene. Maybe it made more sense in the script or in a previous iteration of the cut... I'm saying that because you can hear Faris' explanation through the glass a lot better in the first trailers than you can in the final movie where it seems they gave up trying to make sense of her character's actions altogether,
Most of what involves Oram and Daniels is great. Same as the reaction I had the first time around, the Oram/David/Neomorph scene is amazing. And proof that painting CGI on an actor really can work well. What an amazing scene.
Chestburster scene. Still amazing. That score! I mean, that works for most of the movie : that score from Jed Kurzel is perfect. Ok, maybe a bit forgettable in the half section, but that piece of music for the chest burster is genius. And that scene is incredibly beautiful.
The movie structure in itself is not at fault for the movie's flaws. I love the idea of having a full hour to get behind the team, half an hour to survive on the planet, half an hour to survive off it. Roughly. I think it works well. It's just a shame that a couple of important monster scenes end up being a bit messy/rushed.
By the way, the "bring it to my turf" scene worked a lot better the second time around. I personally love the filter they used for "Xeno-view", I thought it worked very well, and I thought the editing worked wonders. All these corridor doors closing looked amazing ( and again, the score! ). If there is one thing that let that whole section down it's the close-ups on "Walter"/David. We know it's David but it's really unclear and confusing as to whether we is trying to help, only witness, or on the side of the Xenomorph. It adds some really unnecessary confusion to the whole thing, which breaks the tension and focus where it really shouldn't.
Speaking of, mixing the positive with negative : all the David scenes in general are fascinating and will make for repeated viewing gold, but I think something has been lost in the final edit by being overtly obvious about the switch in the last act. The tension in the last act should be focused on the Tenessee/Daniels/Xeno dynamic. That's where the fun is. So having Walter around and knowing it's David is an extra ingredient that really doesn't work. It works once the Xeno has been dealt with, it even works wonderfully, but up to that point it makes for a pesky distraction.
So there you go. A deeply satisfying first hour. Satisfying extra moments scattered here and there in the second hour ( Engineer city, Engineer visuals, David/Walter scene, David/Oram, David/Daniels ), absolutely beautiful score almost throughout, but a couple of scenes that have sub-par CGI and messy editing in a couple of important scenes, including sadly the final confrontation.
A bit frustrating taken as a whole and all the more given how incredibly good the first hour is, but still way better and way more satisfying than Prometheus AND up there in my favourite of the series ( right after Alien and Aliens ).
By the way, on second viewing, there are definitely Giger-esque things growing out of Shaw's head... I don't mind mysteries ( there are lots of things left for us to ponder in Covenant in a good way ) but I wouldn't have minded some slightly more obviously challenging visuals when it came to Shaw mutating, or when it came to seeing Ejogo's corpse after the neomorph attack for example. Given the movie's rating, it could easily have been a bit more bold in a couple of places and would have been even more satisfying as a result.
A good movie. A good Sci-fi movie. A lot to ponder.
A bit extra care would have made an easy difference between satisfying and perfect though.
Ok, fresh from the Showcase Cinema - many things I loved, but a few gripes. Overall, I think we need to accept the Alien has become a piece of the jigsaw in a grander story - Ridley's not doing the haunted house anymore (although there's a little of that I suppose).
I don't agree that this is the right path, but I kind of understand what Ridley meant when he said it was cooked. Alien and Aliens are special and one offs. You shouldn't be trying to capture the same lightening in the bottle. Instead of going for scares, Ridley's got kinky and is going for perversion...out of honour to Giger, the biggest pervert of them all. Anyway, my review? When it's good, it's very very good. It just feels several million dollars and a couple of months post-production short of perfection. The script has many good ideas, and ties together much of the narrative mess of Prometheus. The problems with the film stem from a)
Spoiler
not having the balls to go full out horror, for example by exploiting David's experimentation on Shaw - perhaps having her kept alive, a tortured mutation, producing eggs, mostly Alien, but something human still there
and (b
Spoiler
the "rushed" edit of the climax. A big like Shaw in Prometheus, the final battle isn't as satisfying as it should be, and I put this down to keeping the running time to less than 2 hours. We're clearly missing some scenes / shots
Is it a good film? Yes, absolutely. Is it of the standard of the first 3? Hmmm, no, but will we ever get that kind of fearsome storytelling again - you know, X-rated horror? Nope. So in many ways this is the best we could have expected. I think Ridley knows this, and is the very reason why he's pursuing a God-Quest theme opposed to anything else.
Am i the only one that liked Prometheus better than Covenant? Actually, if you stop Covenant when David turns up then I'll give it slightly to Covenant, but the third act of the movie is so horrendously bad it drags it right past for me.
Quote from: Highland on May 19, 2017, 12:14:54 AM
Am i the only one that liked Prometheus better than Covenant? Actually, if you stop Covenant when David turns up then I'll give it slightly to Covenant, but the third act of the movie is so horrendously bad it drags it right past for me.
For all the problems Prometheus had it felt more in line with "ALIEN" than Covenant does.It was also grander in scale and at least tried to adhere to some science and bigger themes of the franchise. It's still a mess, but at least it was a grand one that tried a few new tricks, while maintaining mystery. Agree with you that Covenant has a much stronger start than Prometheus.
Ok I just saw it!!!
I think it was rushed. I think it was really rushed. I think Fassbender is the stand out of coarse. However, I think Billy Crudup was the second standout.
Waterson felt very flat to me. McBride was ok. James Franco was amazing!!!!!
The CGI was not good. It wasn't god awful though.
The story was just like Prometheus!!!! It's still full of holes!!! Everyone always said that the scientists don't really act like scientists in Prometheus. Well these people don't act normal here either. The female who gets decapitated runs off by herself. Oram allows it too!!! Safety in numbers people!!!
So as a fan here we are again with a lifecycle issue. The amount of time for Oram and Lope contradicts itself in the same movie for christs sake!!!
My favorite scene was the chestburster actually. It's so stupid, but it has heart.....which makes no sense it's a f**king alien!!!
I how the hell did he go from The Martian to this???
In short this movie is comparable to The Lost World. (Jurassic park 2) its rushed and lacking character, but there are some good parts.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 11, 2017, 09:20:46 AM
Quote from: Xenoscream on May 10, 2017, 04:49:08 PMMy overall feeling is that it was a decent film, but had some flaws, and as an Alien fan a few things really pissed me off.
This is pretty much spot-on.
Same here...8 with a big really big minus.
What I liked:
- The big newborn beluga looking alien...really creepy.
- That beeping music that kept playing
- David & Walter
- Some of the crew, notably the women, except the one that didn't want to open the door but than she did..
What I didn't like:
- The crap Alien cgi..I knew it would suck
- A story & writing that felt a bit hurried and washed
- Again some dumb dumb writing and scenes...why don't you shove your head in a big ass egg Ridley
- Only 1-2 good Alien scenes
- Too much storyline about David
- That whole Jungle scene...too much Aliens life & death
- A lot of copied scenes from Alien Isolation which were alright but should have been done more like in Alien instead of all that stupid jumping around.
- Too many Alien runner scenes instead of creepy Alien..
- Too friggin rushed
Alien
Aliens
Prometheus
Alien Covenant
All da rest
Parker's Review:
Just got back from my first viewing and, frankly, it's a lot to digest. But here are some things that stood out to me:
1) The score was a little heavy on the Goldsmith rehashing, but at the same time, I really enjoyed the Prometheus theme's return, and I even heard a little Goldenthal in there at times.
2) Tennessee was a great character, but could have definitely benefited from a "sidekick" ala Bret while he was up there by himself, as the two extra crew members did very little to add to his performance.
3) The first half of the movie was solid. But, like Hicks and multiple others have already discussed, the second half just flew by. It's clear that despite what he's said in interviews, Riddles believes that the original Xeno-type alien has completely run its course. The super-fast facehugger to chestburster to full size xeno process just really left a bad taste in my mouth.
4) More of the Walter and David interaction would have been a plus! Those were easily the best scenes in the movie, imo. I know it's far-fetched, but it'd be awesome if Walter returns in one of the future movies.
5) I also hope there is an extended cut of the film that's eventually released that includes the Shaw/David scene and the extra James Franco scene that was removed. It'd also be great if there was a little more explanation of what exactly David did to Shaw to make her head look all Giger-y when Walter finds her. But alas, we never got the Prometheus extended cut so it might be a shot in the dark.
6) Daniels was fine. I didn't think she was a Ripley clone. It'll be interesting to see what happens if/when she and Tennessee end up "Awakening"
7) It's probably not possible these days, but man would I love to see an alien again that's not completely CG. I mean there were parts that were God-awful to observe.
8) It would've been cool to see a Neo vs. Xeno battle with David as a close observer, taking notes for his future creation projects.
9) I wish Crudup had survived as well. He was finally beginning to come into his own when he was 5 second facehugged and bursted. Loved that "I met the devil when I was a boy..." line.
I can't come up with a #10 right now lol, but I think thought the movie was good overall. Not a "perfect organism" by any means, but still better than some of the other installments we've had to witness.
Right now the list is:
Aliens Directors Cut
Alien (either one, they're both awesome)
Alien 3 Assembly Cut
Alien Covenant
Prometheus
Alien Resurrection
just got back and i liked it, didn't love it. ideas wise and probably overall, i preferred prometheus. i miss practical effects and the cg bummed me out quite a bit. felt pretty sad about shaw and the engineers, or lack of. fingers crossed awakening, or whatever it turns out to be, answers all of those original origin questions. 3 out of 5
Just got back from seeing Alien Covenant and I must say it was definitely an enjoyable edition to The franchise. I loved the first couple of acts of the movie. The plot, character development and Neomorphs were great.
Like so many of you I was bummed by a number of things particularly involving the xenomorph. I must say I was pleased with the overall design; I thought it looked great even though most of it was CGI. Let's face it ladies and gentlemen it's never going back to guys in suites(with majority use throughout a film)as long as there's CGI.
I agree with you guys in the facehugger scene was rushed as well as the growth of the Alien. My least favorite part of the whole movie was the chestburster scene, it started out great then poof it's a miniature xeno. What was with it copying David's outstretched arms and body movements?!? Weird.
David creating the Xeno didn't bug me as much as I thought it would. Although I love the idea of the Xeno being this ancient alien race birthed forth while the cosmos were still young. Found only in the deepest darkest reaches of space and nightmares. Hopefully this is still the case.
The whole act on the covenant felt so rushed. I didnt feel that the Xeno was scary because the film was going a mile a minute at that point.
Finally, the "twist" at the end. I don't think anyone with a brain was fooled by this. I would have been more suprised if it actually was Walter. Overall though I thought it was a fun, worthy addition to Alien. 6 out of 10.
Aliens->Alien->Alien covenant (crazy right?)->Alien 3->Prometheus ->Alien Resurrection
Just got back from seeing it and processing my thoughts:
Loved
the first part of the movie. I really liked the setup going into the second act.
Most of the main characters
Xeno fight on rig with claw
Back/ Throat bursters
Ok
David and Walt interaction
Not ok
Xeno and Neo rapid growth
So most of these are pretty much spot on with a lot of other peoples view of the movie But I blame Shaw for all this crap. If she didn't put David back together this would have never happened..👎 I liked the movie though and once again more questions than answers
Imo
Alien
Aliens
Covenant
Prometheus
Alien 3
LIFE IS A MUCH MUCH BETTER ALIEN MOVIE IN 2017!
Yeah, I had way more fun watching Life.
How exactly did the second alien get onto the covenant? The second facehugger wasn't on long enough to do anything. Confused?
Overall I'm disappointed, I like Prometheus better.
I don't want anymore Alien movies from Ridley Scott, and this is coming from someone who likes Prometheus.
Covenant was so disappointing.
I am going to do a proper review tomorrow but I will say I really, really enjoyed it! And not for the reasons I thought I would...
The bit about David getting the author of the poem wrong, and Walter's response...that was brilliant.
I realize something though. If you came to this movie for scary, tense Xeno kills, you will not enjoy it. The xeno and other creatures are interesting, yes, but the real focus of the movie is David. And it's very captivating to me. If that is not your thing, so be it, but damn this movie hit all the right notes for my personal taste. I loved it.
The xeno changes I can accept because I do not believe this is the same big chap. Regardless, I can accept David creating them in this form because David is an interesting character. I get the sense that is where Ridley Scott's true interest is and love what he has done with it. That ending...."I will look after the children" ...referencing the embryos....horrifying.
People discussing the movie coming out if it, couple guys I talked to enjoyed it.
My rankings...
Alien + Aliens
Covenant
Prometheus (if only now raised because Covenant makes David's story more interesting in Prometheus) + Alien 3
Alien Ressurection
Quote from: Hennex Forest on May 19, 2017, 05:12:04 AM
I don't want anymore Alien movies from Ridley Scott, and this is coming from someone who likes Prometheus.
Covenant was so disappointing.
BECAUSE? Seriously people, back up your your damn opinion or shut the hell up. Covenant was a good movie, end of story. Stop trolling!
I liked the film. There are a couple of caveats to this, but overall, this is definitely the best film in the Alien franchise in a long ass time. Way better, more thoughtful, and deliberate than Alien: Resurrection and better than Alien 3 (which although many fans have grown to appreciate more over the years, remains a seriously flawed, and underwhelming film and not the proper final piece of the trilogy that it was originally intended to be)
One thing was quite clear though, this film and all the Alien Prequels have a certain linchpin and that is the android, David. Although there were neomorphs and a couple proto-morphs (earliest protoype versions of the alien lacking the more biomechanical aspects and longer gestation cycle), they were not front and center, a.k.a not the main focus of the film. Instead everything gravitates around furthering and eventually completing David's story arc, and all the themes and philosophical questions that orbit his character's persona and motivations. (Creation, feeling superior to the inferior humans who created him, suffering from many of the flaws humanity has from his perspective etc., the desire to reach transcendence and leave a lasting legacy, acheive perfection in some way)
i found Michael Fassbender's performance as both David and the more benign, more robotic, Walter to be absolutely spellbinding. The scenes where they were both together were just enchanting, strange, and at times a bit humorous in a non-slap-stick kind of way. The fight scene between them was done much better than what I had read from reviews, and the kiss was not what was hinted at in many of the reviews, but rather a kiss of death, mafia style, which is delievered to Walter. (Before David stabs him in the neck with the flute)
The score was above average as well. The haunting music that played as the backburster neomorph emerged from its embryonic sac was just eerie, the use of the Prometheus theme, and the callback to one of the themes played in the the original Alien felt like welcome but not overdone/overused bits of nostalgia.
The neomorphs were cool as well, despite the obvious need to have them be complete cg nightmarish creatures. They didn't get much screen time but without making a film more like Aliens but with lots of neomorphs instead of xenomorphs, I don't know how that could have been avoided.(As people had guns, and there were only two of the beasties in the film)
After reading reviews and watching reviews on youtube, at least the non-spoiler ones, I went to see the film with low expectations of how good the cgi would be or how often it would be used. After having seen the film, I was pleasantly surprised. While on the one hand I prefer practical shots of the xenomorph on the big screen, there was nothing that stood out as being like a video game or just laughable like say a sy-fy channel original movie's use of cg. You could tell the alien was cg, but the design of the creature itself was better than what's been seen over the last 15 years or so. It looked as good if not better than what we last saw in Alien 3.(certainly far surpassing the disappointing design of the aliens in Resurrection)
All the acting was good, and the plot was more than serviceable. People do seem to notice/complain about the accelerated birth/lifecycle of the creatures, but I think it makes sense since they are still directly connected to the virus/black goo which produces abberations/hybrid creatures meant to be as deadly and efficient as possible. Once the xenomorphs become a creature onto their own, generations removed from those spawned by the engineers bioweapon, (and add a queen to the life cycle) it makes more sense that slower gestation rates would result. (that's my interpretation in any event)
The only things I really didn't like were that the iconic xenomorph(even if a protomorph iteration) was only in the film in the third act and even then, it was brief. The other thing was the chestburster that came out of Oram. It was just bizarre, a very thin but miniature version of an adult alien.(as opposed to say something like the "bambi burster" from Alien 3, which is more of what I expected after seeing the magazine scan of it)
In summary, I did like the film a lot. I would indeed say it was a little bit better than Prometheus, but obviously nowhere close to being as good or epic as the first two films in the franchise. (But if anyone expected that, then they'd have to be more than a little naive) I'd give this film a 7.5 out of 10.
Beautiful, chilling, grotesque, haunting, dreamlike, brutal, and actually genuinely scary at certain points. I am pleased. It saddens me that a lot of people aren't, but I understand it to a degree -- I feel like this is the strangest movie in the series. And I really don't get reviews that I've seen claiming it brings nothing new to the table. This movie was twisted. Is it perfect? Of course not. But given everything I was seeing people say for a week, I was so... thrilled. At the time Prometheus was being made, the most recent point of reference for anything 'horror'-like that Ridley had done was Hannibal (yes, another movie many people dislike, but I love). I envisioned a movie with an aura similar to that, though what was released was totally different. This is far more like the movie I was imagining then. It's Ridley's sheer craziness laid out on the screen, but applied in all of the best ways instead of misguided ones. Impressed.
So, yeah, I liked it. Don't know how many people there are here that do, but uh, count me in.
:-*
I enjoyed it a lot. I think it has a great deal of merit. There's still mystery left in this series - it's just shifted direction.
The Alien is becoming something a lot different to what audiences were expecting.
It's also the 2nd piece of (at least) a 3 act story. There's good reason why a lot has been withheld.
I enjoy the fact the movie isn't easily digestible popcorn fluff. It's brutal in ways 'Star Wars' can never be. It's more menacing than anything 'MCU' can ever deliver. There's real meat on these bones. It's not going to satisfy everyone. I like that about it.
-Windebieste.
Quote from: Snake on May 18, 2017, 10:17:23 PMLife ripped off Alien
Doesn't mean it can't be a more enjoyable, cohesive movie.
Alien ripped off Forbidden Planet.
Why David turned to a maniac psycho killer after all? That prologue doesnt add up with Prometheus as there were no traces of this behavior. Was he waiting for Weylands death to be free?
He was so much different to Prometheus David. Nothing complex.
Walter was far more intresting and i would loved a twist where Walter turns evil.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 19, 2017, 09:15:35 AM
Quote from: Snake on May 18, 2017, 10:17:23 PMLife ripped off Alien
Doesn't mean it can't be a more enjoyable, cohesive movie.
Alien ripped off Forbidden Planet.
Life is ok, totally forgettable and bland but ok. The only reason people preferred it is because it didn't have the burden of expectation that Covenant had.
If Covenant was just a sci-fi Alien rip off like Life is rather than part of the actual franchise, people would definitely say its a better movie than life, because it clearly is.
I believe Covenant will be viewed as a great movie in years to come once the dust has settled.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 19, 2017, 10:14:56 AMIf Covenant was just a sci-fi Alien rip off like Life is rather than part of the actual franchise, people would definitely say its a better movie than life, because it clearly is.
Debatable.
Life was a
lot more tense and scary than
Covenant. The pacing was also better. And it set up its shock first death much better because the victim was actually a main character who had appeared on-screen beforehand, rather than just being a famous actor you struggle to identify until after he's dead.
Life did a lot of things better than
Covenant. I agree it had the advantage of no prior baggage but even so I think it was better crafted in some ways.
Quote from: szkoki on May 19, 2017, 09:41:58 AM
Why David turned to a maniac psycho killer after all? That prologue doesnt add up with Prometheus as there were no traces of this behavior. Was he waiting for Weylands death to be free?
He was so much different to Prometheus David. Nothing complex.
Walter was far more intresting and i would loved a twist where Walter turns evil.
It was explained somewhat in the movie and much of it is meant to be figured out via the many clues within the film. I will give you one: David incorrectly names the poem author, as brought up by Walter. Why would an android be wrong about this? How is that even possible? Its there for you to figure out among other clues too.
The creature in Life is really nice but the rest, zzzzzzzz
A terrific mixture of Alien and Gravity, generic to the possible and with absolutely no idea or thematic developed.
I don't talk about the characters, without interest, and sometimes stupid too!
Too bad because the first sequence with the creature (and main character) is excellent.
Quote from: Stolen on May 19, 2017, 10:34:44 AMA terrific mixture of Alien and Gravity, generic to the possible and with absolutely no idea or thematic developed.
The portrayal of the Alien in
Covenant was pretty generic.
Quote from: Stolen on May 19, 2017, 10:34:44 AMI don't talk about the characters, without interest, and sometimes stupid too!
Not sure which film you're referring to here, because that definitely applied to some of the characters in
Covenant too.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 19, 2017, 10:28:39 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 19, 2017, 10:14:56 AMIf Covenant was just a sci-fi Alien rip off like Life is rather than part of the actual franchise, people would definitely say its a better movie than life, because it clearly is.
Debatable. Life was a lot more tense and scary than Covenant. The pacing was also better. And it set up its shock first death much better because the victim was actually a main character who had appeared on-screen beforehand, rather than just being a famous actor you struggle to identify until after he's dead.
Life did a lot of things better than Covenant. I agree it had the advantage of no prior baggage but even so I think it was better crafted in some ways.
I didn't find that a shock, I called it as soon as he entered the room. For me it screamed, big name actor dies early shock horror!
Every beat of the movie was predictable for me and I didn't really like the pacing either, the last 30 mins or so I was actually checking my watch.
Don't get me wrong I did enjoy it but in a disposable watch and forget way. I couldn't debate anything about it because it just wasn't interesting enough to do so IMO. At least everyone is talking about Covenant!
Quote from: cucuchu on May 19, 2017, 10:33:00 AM
Quote from: szkoki on May 19, 2017, 09:41:58 AM
Why David turned to a maniac psycho killer after all? That prologue doesnt add up with Prometheus as there were no traces of this behavior. Was he waiting for Weylands death to be free?
He was so much different to Prometheus David. Nothing complex.
Walter was far more intresting and i would loved a twist where Walter turns evil.
It was explained somewhat in the movie and much of it is meant to be figured out via the many clues within the film. I will give you one: David incorrectly names the poem author, as brought up by Walter. Why would an android be wrong about this? How is that even possible? Its there for you to figure out among other clues too.
Yes that was a key, important moment for me. I'm not totally sure what it means though Lol.
The Alien part is the least interesting part of the film! But the rest is superb, we don't often see such sets or visuals in theaters nowadays!
Yes there are stupid actions in Covenant, but not as much as in Life in my opinion. David is a pretty amazing character, Walter very interesting, I love Oram!
In Life, we have no character that stands out, no development, no idea, it's just a monster behind closed doors. Just my tought! I need more. Covenant is flawed but there is a lot of material to analyze, and I prefer that!
Quote from: Stolen on May 19, 2017, 10:48:43 AM
The Alien part is the least interesting part of the film! But the rest is superb, we don't often see such sets or visuals in theaters nowadays!
Yes there are stupid actions in Covenant, but not as much as in Life in my opinion. David is a pretty amazing character, Walter very interesting, I love Oram!
In Life, we have no character that stands out, no development, no idea, it's just a monster behind closed doors. Just my tought! I need more. Covenant is flawed but there is a lot of material to analyze, and I prefer that!
Totally agree with everything you said
Quote from: Stolen on May 19, 2017, 10:48:43 AM
The Alien part is the least interesting part of the film! But the rest is superb, we don't often see such sets or visuals in theaters nowadays!
Yes there are stupid actions in Covenant, but not as much as in Life in my opinion. David is a pretty amazing character, Walter very interesting, I love Oram!
In Life, we have no character that stands out, no development, no idea, it's just a monster behind closed doors. Just my tought! I need more. Covenant is flawed but there is a lot of material to analyze, and I prefer that!
Agreed and actually the xenomorph being in the film as it was has a purpose. I will write up why later (will take some time) but essentially David has believed he created something perfect but you can see from his reactions that he is disappointed they were dispatched rather easily. He obviously knew they had to be dealt with so he could have all the colonists to himself but he had a look of disdain when they xenos perished. The camera really focused on his reactions.
He will be looking to perfect his creation in order to both 1) increase their survivability/increase their intelligence and 2) make them easier to control. I believe he will do this through some kind of biomechanical infusion....and it will turn against him.
Quote from: Snake on May 19, 2017, 08:20:53 AM
Quote from: Hennex Forest on May 19, 2017, 05:12:04 AM
I don't want anymore Alien movies from Ridley Scott, and this is coming from someone who likes Prometheus.
Covenant was so disappointing.
BECAUSE? Seriously people, back up your your damn opinion or shut the hell up. Covenant was a good movie, end of story. Stop trolling!
Why should all of us have to submit a two page report to say we didn't enjoy the film. I didn't like it, I shouldn't have to write an essay about it.
Here, you want one reason? This is one. The Scooby-Doo "Walter is really David" twist had me groaning in my seat the moment he stepped out of the temple.
Random thoughts the morning after my first viewing -
I thought the justification as to why this crew would investigate a rogue transmission was well handled ie - habitable planet closer than Origae, recent death in the sleep pods, etc.
I AM WILLING to look past it, but all the misfortune the Covenant crew experiences could have been avoided if they had taken basic precautions and used helmets/suits on this uncharted Alien world, no matter how suitable to human life it is.
The growth of all the creatures in the film is a bit too accelerated for my tastes, I know we are talking sci-fi here but it just doesn't seem realistic or congruent to the rest of the series.
The dynamic between David and Walter is the real highlight and core of the film. David's workshop is one of the most haunting visual setpieces in the entire series. David's contempt for humanity is well explored, but I feel David's motivations for slaughtering the Engineers and murdering Shaw in the cruelest ways possible could have been much better elaborated upon. He makes a grave, a garden, and a tribute song for Shaw as if he truly had affection for her. So why experiment on her and defile her?
I never interpreted the "fingering/blowing" line with the flute as some sort of sexual innuendo/joke. That's how a flute works. I'm not sure why people are running with this.
Speaking of haunting setpieces, the bombing scene was gruesomely beautiful. I loved seeing the weapon deployed on a massive scale and the havoc that wrought on the Engineer's biology. You could see hybrid creatures ripping themselves from the husks of the Engineers. "To create, one must first destroy" indeed. Humans were obsolete creations to the Engineers, and this appears to be David's perception as well.
The Neomorph not attacking/killing David makes NO SENSE to me. It's been established that the creatures of this series will kill Synthetics with Bishop being the obvious reference point.
I would have preferred the film to lean a bit more on practical effects and less on CGI for the creature work. Despite this, the Neomorphs were handled very well and I like that they have the look of the "beluga" from the Prometheus concept art. I could swear that when Oram was shooting it and it bared its jaws, it looked like the toothy mouth of the original concept art.
The shower scene is disappointing on many levels, primarily in character motivation and logic. The crew have just survived a harrowing endeavor. Surely there is something more natural this couple could have been doing when they get killed by the Xeno than blasting music and getting intimate.
The body language for the Alien was handled well all the way until the Terraforming Bay scene where it loped into the room like a dude taking his work break and going out for a smoke.
The Daved/Walter switcheroo was WAY too obviously Telegraphed. One of them might as well have had a Spock mustache. Daniels gives a number of sideways glances, insinuating she suspects something is awry. Why wait until you are at your most compromised, in the sleep pod, to challenge that notion?
Final thoughts - despite any problems I have with the film, I quite enjoyed the experience and look forward to revisiting it soon. The characters and their interactions felt much more natural and logical than in Prometheus and I can safely say that this is the superior film. I would have liked to see some more resolution/closure from the unresolved threads from Prometheus. It's clear that David is the focus of this prequel saga and the series benefits from the philosophical questions he poses. It's also nice to have an antagonist that isn't just the faceless W-Y Corp. for once. The first and second acts were full of mystery, dread, and moody setpieces. The third act is a bit disappointing as it is quite derivative of the first Alien and somewhat rushed. I'd rate Prometheus a 4/10 and Alien: Covenant a 7/10.
Quote from: DemonicD13 on May 19, 2017, 12:46:37 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 19, 2017, 08:20:53 AM
Quote from: Hennex Forest on May 19, 2017, 05:12:04 AM
I don't want anymore Alien movies from Ridley Scott, and this is coming from someone who likes Prometheus.
Covenant was so disappointing.
BECAUSE? Seriously people, back up your your damn opinion or shut the hell up. Covenant was a good movie, end of story. Stop trolling!
Why should all of us have to submit a two page report to say we didn't enjoy the film. I didn't like it, I shouldn't have to write an essay about it.
Here, you want one reason? This is one. The Scooby-Doo "Walter is really David" twist had me groaning in my seat the moment he stepped out of the temple.
It was not a twist in the traditional sense. The film gives plenty of obvious signs that it is David, but it leaves you guessing on where his motivations are in regards to the remaining crew and Xenos. He even looks disappointed as the Xenos are dispatched, even though you can tell he knows its necessary if he wants the Covenant and its passengers/embryos to himself. The surprise is intended to be from the perspective of Daniels.
It's obvious since michael fassbender play 2 charaters .
Quote from: Mostly on May 18, 2017, 11:49:42 PM
Long time forum lurker here. Just watched the damn movie.
My capsule review is: 4/10. Utter crap.
My actual review: I am a total fan of the franchise (1,2,3) since I was kid. I even liked Prometheus to some extent. Reading the forums before watching the movie certainly didn't help...but still... There was no tension whatsoever, no scare jumps, no atmosphere, nothing. At least Prometheus had that sinister tone all over it. The visuals were great, but still not better than Prometheus. The creature's CGI was laughable. The story was falling apart after 60min in. A lot of cringeworthy moments...like David kissing walter after teaching him how to play the flute.
- laughable CGI of the creatures, especially the birth of the neomorph
- fast and furious type of action with cables and everything
- no tension, buildup, there were even no scare jumps
- mini alien raising hands
- androids kissing
- flute lessons
- everything that happened in the dome is total borefest.
- ultra messy third act
- xeno view
- the hunting and killing of the xeno is boring and predictable
- ditching all the questions that were left open from Prometheus
I can't think of any positive thing. Maybe David explaining how Walter can't create (the flute I know...)
Where Ridley wanted to go with this? It's half disabled Prometheus sequel with a few CGI xeno disasters thrown in.
Seems like Ridley lost his balls and creative mojo a long time ago.
BTW.. I'm not a hater. I love the franchise to death, but this movie is a total abomination. The worst part is that movies like this and AVP are shitting on the entire franchise...
To make an Alien movie you need:
- a scary dark planet
- scary dark corridors
- a terrified not so dumb crew with an android
- facehuggers that two persons can barely remove from somebody's face
- a practical big chap that lurks in the dark
- a pinch of unexplained misterious gigersque entities.
Wow, everything you said from A to Z is exactly how I see it too. I gave the review an 8/10 on IMDB to help out the ratings there, but I'd give it an 6.5 or 7 tops out of 10.
Quote from: Nostromo on May 19, 2017, 03:13:32 PM
Quote from: Mostly on May 18, 2017, 11:49:42 PM
Long time forum lurker here. Just watched the damn movie.
My capsule review is: 4/10. Utter crap.
My actual review: I am a total fan of the franchise (1,2,3) since I was kid. I even liked Prometheus to some extent. Reading the forums before watching the movie certainly didn't help...but still... There was no tension whatsoever, no scare jumps, no atmosphere, nothing. At least Prometheus had that sinister tone all over it. The visuals were great, but still not better than Prometheus. The creature's CGI was laughable. The story was falling apart after 60min in. A lot of cringeworthy moments...like David kissing walter after teaching him how to play the flute.
- laughable CGI of the creatures, especially the birth of the neomorph
- fast and furious type of action with cables and everything
- no tension, buildup, there were even no scare jumps
- mini alien raising hands
- androids kissing
- flute lessons
- everything that happened in the dome is total borefest.
- ultra messy third act
- xeno view
- the hunting and killing of the xeno is boring and predictable
- ditching all the questions that were left open from Prometheus
I can't think of any positive thing. Maybe David explaining how Walter can't create (the flute I know...)
Where Ridley wanted to go with this? It's half disabled Prometheus sequel with a few CGI xeno disasters thrown in.
Seems like Ridley lost his balls and creative mojo a long time ago.
BTW.. I'm not a hater. I love the franchise to death, but this movie is a total abomination. The worst part is that movies like this and AVP are shitting on the entire franchise...
To make an Alien movie you need:
- a scary dark planet
- scary dark corridors
- a terrified not so dumb crew with an android
- facehuggers that two persons can barely remove from somebody's face
- a practical big chap that lurks in the dark
- a pinch of unexplained misterious gigersque entities.
Wow, everything you said from A to Z is exactly how I see it too. I gave the review an 8/10 on IMDB to help out the ratings there, but I'd give it an 6.5 or 7 tops out of 10.
David kissing Walter was obviously meant to be some sort of kiss of death, think of Judas when he kissed Jesus. I thought it was brilliant.
I left the cinema with mixed feelings about it!
The first half I loved...the pacing was brilliant...the suspense....but what the actual f**k happened towards the end?! Does Ridley Scott even remember anything about the Alien and it's life cycle! I just feel very annoyed with it! A 5 minute chestburster?! Seriously?! A fully grown alien in minutes?! I did think the graphics were great....and the alien did look amazing!
I am hoping it was heavily cut and when the blu ray comes it will put the footage back to help with the timing!
I also feel a little cheated with Shaw....controversial I know but I actually liked her....and what was the point of her filming stuff for it not to be in the film.....I saw the crossing prolouge and got all geared up for her to be in the film! I'm sure there is plenty more footage out there to come with her in it....
Overall it's an Alien film.....I love this franchise....and for the most part I did enjoy it! I just hope the blu ray helps fix the last 3rd act!
P's....f**k David!
Oh and on a side note.....why was Walter called Walter....it didn't follow the pattern off Ash... Bishop.... Call ....David....and then Walter?! Just a little big bear!
Quote from: Snake on May 19, 2017, 03:44:24 PM
Quote from: Nostromo on May 19, 2017, 03:13:32 PM
Quote from: Mostly on May 18, 2017, 11:49:42 PM
Long time forum lurker here. Just watched the damn movie.
My capsule review is: 4/10. Utter crap.
My actual review: I am a total fan of the franchise (1,2,3) since I was kid. I even liked Prometheus to some extent. Reading the forums before watching the movie certainly didn't help...but still... There was no tension whatsoever, no scare jumps, no atmosphere, nothing. At least Prometheus had that sinister tone all over it. The visuals were great, but still not better than Prometheus. The creature's CGI was laughable. The story was falling apart after 60min in. A lot of cringeworthy moments...like David kissing walter after teaching him how to play the flute.
- laughable CGI of the creatures, especially the birth of the neomorph
- fast and furious type of action with cables and everything
- no tension, buildup, there were even no scare jumps
- mini alien raising hands
- androids kissing
- flute lessons
- everything that happened in the dome is total borefest.
- ultra messy third act
- xeno view
- the hunting and killing of the xeno is boring and predictable
- ditching all the questions that were left open from Prometheus
I can't think of any positive thing. Maybe David explaining how Walter can't create (the flute I know...)
Where Ridley wanted to go with this? It's half disabled Prometheus sequel with a few CGI xeno disasters thrown in.
Seems like Ridley lost his balls and creative mojo a long time ago.
BTW.. I'm not a hater. I love the franchise to death, but this movie is a total abomination. The worst part is that movies like this and AVP are shitting on the entire franchise...
To make an Alien movie you need:
- a scary dark planet
- scary dark corridors
- a terrified not so dumb crew with an android
- facehuggers that two persons can barely remove from somebody's face
- a practical big chap that lurks in the dark
- a pinch of unexplained misterious gigersque entities.
Wow, everything you said from A to Z is exactly how I see it too. I gave the review an 8/10 on IMDB to help out the ratings there, but I'd give it an 6.5 or 7 tops out of 10.
David kissing Walter was obviously meant to be some sort of kiss of death, think of Judas when he kissed Jesus. I thought it was brilliant.
Yes! Walter's complete non-reaction and obvious confusion added to that. This coming after Walter corrects David, telling him that that very poem that he has been repeating to himself all these years in isolation, the very poem he draws inspiration from, he has been wrong about the author the entire time. A self-aware robot that is concious of making a mistake while at the same time developing a god-complex. Like Walter said: "If one note of the symphony is off, the entire symphony has gone to pot" (paraphrasing, forgot his exact line). Brilliant imo
Quote from: P1NK8C1DBOOTS on May 19, 2017, 03:49:15 PM
Oh and on a side note.....why was Walter called Walter....it didn't follow the pattern off Ash... Bishop.... Call ....David....and then Walter?! Just a little big bear!
David (Giler) Walter (Hill)
I thought it was pretty derivative and even though I overall enjoyed it, I can't say it's amazing at all and it's not the direction I wanted Scott to take. I wanted to see more of the Engineers and actually continue the theme of "meeting the creators" Prometheus set up, and flesh it out.
I don't find Xenomorphs compelling anymore, the Alien has run its course. It was scary back in the days, now if you treat it like we're not supposed to know what it is and what it's capable of, your movie is gonna feel like more of the same somewhat. At least as far as I'm concerned. That's why I wanted to see more of the Engineers and their society. But after Scott distancing himself from the Alien theme with Prometheus, we get this. I don't think he knows what he wants to do tbh. That said, Fassbender and his characters and the cinematography kinda saved the movie for me, which, as I said, I overall enjoyed. But I ain't that thrilled for the future of the franchise.
Well, saw it last night and I enjoyed the shit out of it.
The ending of the film is epic, disturbing, sinister etc... I absolutely loved that last 5 minutes of Daniels finding out that Walter was David. The ending scene in particular where David has that one song played (entrance of the gods) as he walks into the embryo room and places the face huggers embryos with the human. It was so class.
I loved the cast. I think my favorite performance (aside from Michael Fassbinder's chilling Oscar worthy performance) was actually Oram. Such a interesting character and the acting was superb.
The visuals of course were amazing, absolutely incredible.
The backburster, grass attack, entire second act (which I found fascinating), escape from the planet (that action scene with Daniels was so so good) and the ending were all done very very well.
I think the movie needed an extra 20 minutes to explain and go into depth of how David created the Xeno eggs and everything. Hopefully Alien Awakening will address this.
Overall, I loved the movie. It was well done sci fi, a great horror and just so much damn fun.
8.5-9/10
I gave it a "It was okay"
It is a rather easy movie to find faults in and be critical of. Of varying degrees.
If this was the very first film in this saga -- I think I might have loved it. But as a chapter in the mythos of Alien -- and that, for me, is a huge piece of the pie for my enjoyment -- it just didn't fit for me.
I enjoyed the movie -- but I prefer the mystery of Prometheus and wish there wasn't such an extreme snap back from one film to the other.
Alien --> Not enough Alien --> Random Alien just isn't fluid / connected enough.
I don't have any interest in reading a book or a comic for further exposition - unlike Star Wars, where I absolutely would and do.
Net Net - Covenant is a nice film but "Lucy you got some 'splainin' to do" and I don't imagine we'll ever get to that.
Oh well -- I look forward to seeing it in 3D on my couch and digesting it more -- over time -- and I'll definitely be going to the pre/se quels as long as they keep making them.
I think Shaw was sorely missed from this film. If throwing Oren's lines about "faith" in were supposed to make up for the religious aspect - it didn't work.
As an agnostic/atheist -- I LOVED that apparently religion is mocked and discriminated against on Earth and a reason to actually NOT give a commanding job to someone.
But not getting to be a part of Shaw's seeing the whatever these new Engineers are and watching her story unfold -- and instead seeing a shot so quickly that showed her body that I actually missed it and guessed what it was based on audience reaction -- meh.
Her character would have been the perfect philosophical point/counterpoint and added so much context to all of David's development -- instead we got Crudup acting completely silly and making some comment about "meeting the devil"? Huh? Was he in the jungle with Dutch??? ::)
I have no clue how David tamed the Aliens -- by blowing up a nose that didn't exist? By showing no fear? By sitting on a ledge while it was born? By shooting a flare gun?
Is the black goo-mist alive or something sentient? Is that really what the world looks like through Alien eyes? So baffling that I ended up not really caring -- just waiting for the next scene.
7/10. Not as good as Alien, Aliens or Prometheus but easily just as gorgeous as Prometheus.
Didn't like the way the Engineers or Shaw were dealt with. Didn't like the obvious David twist, wish they could've dealt with that better.
Dude, I felt nothing while watching this movie. Where. On. Earth. Was. The. SUSPENSE?! If you can't give us that then at least give us mystery and intrigue. The David dialogue could've used a smart touch up. It was too literal. It could've used the Lindelof touch. I felt nothing during Oram's death.
It felt like Ridley going through the motions but nonetheless I managed to enjoy it. Even the AvPR-like deaths, especially Ricks'.
Quote from: Snake on May 19, 2017, 03:44:24 PM
David kissing Walter was obviously meant to be some sort of kiss of death, think of Judas when he kissed Jesus. I thought it was brilliant.
Agreed.
Just got back from my 3rd (and probably final) viewing.
My opinion still stands: Loved every minute!
The acting, music, effects, etc are all top notch in my books. Any grief I have comes from certain use of the handheld camera in the escape sequence from the planet.
Ridley has added a hauntingly beautiful chapter into the
Alien mythos. The creatures are highly charged and super deadly and I love these versions as much as any iteration seen before.
Spoiler
Aside from the god-awful AVP & A:R versions
I found the original Alien movie scary because it dealt with an unknown monster in the dark and I believe for first time viewers it'll always uphold that fear. But for myself Alien has all but lost that fear factor, its now a source of inspiration and I still think its a masterful work of horror; as most would agree I suspect.
I was somewhat dubious when going to see Covenant, thinking '
will the film actually scare me, like Alien used to?' and I was surprised by how much I was feeling that original fear, it really got under my skin! However it wasn't the xenomorphs or neomorphs, although I felt great tension during the sequences with those creatures...no...
...it was David.
His character brought that fear to the surface for me. His ponderings of mortality and his unwavering pursuit to create these abominations was more than enough to keep me awake at night. His poetic nature gives him an uneasy presence whenever he's on screen and although many (myself included) could see the switch up with him and Walter coming, I couldn't help but watch as the nightmare unfolded!
Watching Prometheus has becomes even more intriguing and in my humble opinion David's character is now up there as one of the greatest movie villains of all time. Allow me to elaborate...
- In the opening of Covenant we learn that David is concerned with the concept that his creator (Weyland) will die yet he will not. However Weyland still orders him about, asking for tea. Also in this scene Weyland calls him his son.
- In Prometheus we see Weyland openly expressing to the crew that David will have no soul, yet he IS "the closest thing he'll ever have to son". Weyland obviously resents David for becoming self aware about the morality of his creator.
- When David sees the head of the Engineer (the creator of his creators) explode his first words are "Mortal after all." Now aware that even Weyland's creators are not as superior as him. This is echoed further in the line from David in Covenant where he is talking about Ape's learning to stand.
- It's established in Prometheus that David is loyal to Weyland because he is programmed to, yet he longs to be free...
Shaw: "
What happens when Weyland is not around to program you anymore?"
David: "
I suppose I'll be free."
Shaw: "
You want that?"
David: "
Want? Not a concept I'm familiar with. That being said, doesn't everyone want their parents dead?"
As we discover in Covenant David WANTS to create but at this time he can't because Weyland has him on a leash. He feels resentment to all his creators, believing them to be far inferior than himself. And when he finds himself with the Engineers pathogen at his disposal he uses it to explore his creative mind, using humans and the Engineers as experiments.
Thus in his mad creations he builds the "
perfect organism".
His character is such an interesting entity in this franchise and I'm sure whatever is on the slate for the next chapter will broaden this character study further.
Alien: Covenant is not a perfect movie but it sure has put this franchise on a path I cannot get enough of!
Bring on that Blu-ray!
Alien Covenant certainly has the wheels spinning, so I have to at least give it credit for that. Ultimately though, while I thought it was good, I also didn't come away liking it as much as I expected to. Or maybe as much as I wanted to? Perhaps my expectations were too high for what is either the 6th, or 8th, entry in the franchise. I admit that I was all aboard the hype train. It did about as well as it could have from a critical perspective given the genre of film & considering how divisive Prometheus was. If a critic disliked Covenant b/c of it's connections to Prometheus, I simply ignored it, given that I like Prometheus. In fact, I really like Prometheus. Covenant, therefore, should have been a surefire win in my eyes, though sadly that wasn't the case.
Covenant feels trapped between being a true follow-up to Prometheus & a straight forward Alien film. What I enjoyed about Prometheus is that, while it takes place within the same universe & prior to Alien, it's not a true prequel. It plays in the same sandbox but it forged its own path. It asked big questions. The level of ambition was huge, and while the execution didn't always match up, it still resulted in what I believe to be a very good sci-fi movie. We already had 4 Alien movies & 2 AVP movies; I wanted something new & it delivered. I was looking forward to a true follow-up; to Paradise.
Scott has certainly seemed to imply that the reaction to Prometheus helped dictate the course for Covenant. That's too bad. FOX certainly wanted to play-up the Alien elements of the film. Hell, it's right in the title. I dare say not a single piece of mainstream promotion, outside of online prologues, made any reference to the events of Prometheus. Okay, so they showed Shaw's dog tag - big deal. For general audiences that skipped over it & came for the advertised Alien film, I imagine they'll be doing a whole lot of head scratching. Even if this film was intended to bridge the gap between the two, it feels like two different films more than it does one coherent one.
Something that's bothered me recently in big budget films, whether they be prequels or sequels, is mere redundancy. I maintain the relatively unpopular opinion that The Force Awakens is simply okay. A good friend, whom with I saw Covenant last night, downright hates The Force Awakens. Why? It simply borrowed & reused existing plot elements from previous Star Wars films. I had similar issues with Jurassic World, but will admit it has more of an excuse. If the dinosaurs don't escape, you don't have a movie. The barebones plot of any Alien film is bound to be similar. Humans will encounter an alien, or aliens, & said alien(s) will start killing them until it's eventual demise via airlock. Of course, each film gave it their own spin, for better or worse. Even Alien Resurrection, the worst the franchise has to offer, posits new ideas.
Covenant more or less reuses the plot of Alien. The crew is awoken from hypersleep, not because of a transmission, but they don't waste any time coming across one. Also, why does the Covenant have a communications buffer? And although not worthy of critique, why do humans 100 years in the future still listen to John Denver? I also wonder the same as several crew members: how is it that this planet didn't present itself to them prior to this colonization mission? Either way, this whole mishap could have been avoided, but since this crew seems pretty non-committal to their duties onboard, they decide to visit instead of forging onwards. Goodness, I'm getting carried away. The general gist however is: crew responds to transmission, crew becomes infected with Alien, Alien finds way onboard spacecraft, Alien is jettisoned into space. Rinse & repeat.
I also am taken back by how cavalierly this film wipes out the Engineers, via. f'n flashback no less. After devoting an entire film to meeting our maker, David takes it upon himself to nuke their presumed home world. I have to believe that other Engineers are traveling to cosmos, lest we have some real continuity issues with the original Alien. David really is one big continuity error. As interesting a character as he is & as fascinating as his time spent with Walter was, I question the decision to credit him the creation of the Xenomorph. The events of this film contradict the derelict ship in the original Alien.
I'm not even entirely convinced this film needs a Xenomorph other than for brand recognition. The Xeno, as presented in Covenant, is just as scary as in Alien Resurrection, which is to say not scary at all. The Neomorphs on the other hand were badass. This movie peaked, in my own opinion of course, during the ~15 minutes between touching down & being "rescued" by David. The entire backbuster sequence was truly excellent. Still, I don't reckon that it, nor any other part of the movie, matched the horror of the cesarean scene in Prometheus.
Covenant alternates between being an ultra heady sequel to Prometheus and a straight-up horror film. A horror him that uses the worst of the genre's tropes I might add. Did a single person that broke away from the group ever come away unscathed? Regardless, there are aspects of each that I liked, but I can't say they outnumbered the aspects that I took issue with. My biggest gripe of them all has to be the twist ending that it was David, not Walter, that returned to the ship. I use the term twist very liberally. I mean, we all saw it coming, right? Maybe, just maybe, a character in the film would take him & his missing hand at face value, but from the audience's perspective it was entirely obvious. I do wonder why he allowed Daniels & Tennessee to defeat the Xeno, although I suppose the end result is the same. David now has a vessel of colonists at his disposal to play god with.
Arguments about the Space Jockey aside, the events of Prometheus didn't disrupt anything we had seen in Alien or it's sequels. The same cannot be said for Covenant. Prior to Prometheus, I didn't want a prequel akin to what Rogue One eventually gave us; a movie that ends immediately prior to the beginning of the original. I didn't want to see the derelict ship crash on LV-426, but after seeing Covenant I'm doubling back on that desire. If we get a sequel to Covenant, an Alien Awakening if you will, it better bend over backwards to make the appropriate threads meet.
If all of this sounds like I'm being harsh on Alien Covenant, I am. I love this franchise & I want to be able to expect the best from it. I did enjoy this movie, but there were too many missteps to ignore. Perhaps my opinions will alter upon a 2nd viewing with tempered expectations, but as of right now, I must say that I'm at least mildly disappointed.
Alien Covenant: 2.5 out of 4 stars
Ranking:
Alien
Aliens
Alien 3 Assembly Cut
Prometheus
Alien Covenant
Alien vs. Predator
Alien Resurrection
AVP Requiem
Quote from: Alien³ on May 19, 2017, 08:32:44 PM
Just got back from my 3rd (and probably final) viewing.
My opinion still stands: Loved every minute!
The acting, music, effects, etc are all top notch in my books. Any grief I have comes from certain use of the handheld camera in the escape sequence from the planet.
Ridley has added a hauntingly beautiful chapter into the Alien mythos. The creatures are highly charged and super deadly and I love these versions as much as any iteration seen before. Spoiler
Aside from the god-awful AVP & A:R versions
I found the original Alien movie scary because it dealt with an unknown monster in the dark and I believe for first time viewers it'll always uphold that fear. But for myself Alien has all but lost that fear factor, its now a source of inspiration and I still think its a masterful work of horror; as most would agree I suspect.
I was somewhat dubious when going to see Covenant, thinking 'will the film actually scare me, like Alien used to?' and I was surprised by how much I was feeling that original fear, it really got under my skin! However it wasn't the xenomorphs or neomorphs, although I felt great tension during the sequences with those creatures...no...
...it was David.
His character brought that fear to the surface for me. His ponderings of mortality and his unwavering pursuit to create these abominations was more than enough to keep me awake at night. His poetic nature gives him an uneasy presence whenever he's on screen and although many (myself included) could see the switch up with him and Walter coming, I couldn't help but watch as the nightmare unfolded!
Watching Prometheus has becomes even more intriguing and in my humble opinion David's character is now up there as one of the greatest movie villains of all time. Allow me to elaborate...
- In the opening of Covenant we learn that David is concerned with the concept that his creator (Weyland) will die yet he will not. However Weyland still orders him about, asking for tea. Also in this scene Weyland calls him his son.
- In Prometheus we see Weyland openly expressing to the crew that David will have no soul, yet he IS "the closest thing he'll ever have to son". Weyland obviously resents David for becoming self aware about the morality of his creator.
- When David sees the head of the Engineer (the creator of his creators) explode his first words are "Mortal after all." Now aware that even Weyland's creators are not as superior as him. This is echoed further in the line from David in Covenant where he is talking about Ape's learning to stand.
- It's established in Prometheus that David is loyal to Weyland because he is programmed to, yet he longs to be free...
Shaw: "What happens when Weyland is not around to program you anymore?"
David: "I suppose I'll be free."
Shaw: "You want that?"
David: "Want? Not a concept I'm familiar with. That being said, doesn't everyone want their parents dead?"
As we discover in Covenant David WANTS to create but at this time he can't because Weyland has him on a leash. He feels resentment to all his creators, believing them to be far inferior than himself. And when he finds himself with the Engineers pathogen at his disposal he uses it to explore his creative mind, using humans and the Engineers as experiments.
Thus in his mad creations he builds the "perfect organism".
His character is such an interesting entity in this franchise and I'm sure whatever is on the slate for the next chapter will broaden this character study further.
Alien: Covenant is not a perfect movie but it sure has put this franchise on a path I cannot get enough of!
Bring on that Blu-ray!
I concur with your views here. For me the film was excellent and they've done a wonderful job of developing the character of David. Going for my second viewing tomorrow!
I recommend that everyone here watch it twice...
I think the whole point of the David 8 twist and expanding his role in the franchise is Ridley giving us the origin story of how Wayland became so obsessed with weaponizing the Alien Specimen. It also highlights both Ash and Bishop motivations in future films. Also I don't believe all the engineers are dead. I think there are still some out there. Anyways, "Covenant" has given a lot more story room to go before the original "Alien" than I expected.
Just back from my second viewing, but this time went to see it in IMAX... Holy sh*t, that was intense! I'm calling it: this is the best Alien-movie ever! Although I love Ripley and have fond memories of the original film, Covenant outdoes it in every single way! I'm so glad Ridley came to his senses and ditched the whole engineer-theme for now. Man, this movie totally kicks ass! It made me feel so humble and fragile as a human being...I'm lost for words to be honest. In all fairness, this movie deserves a lot better than what some us give it credit for. Can't wait for the sequel! Go for it Ridley! You ROCK!
Just came from watching it on IMAX with my fiancé who could care less about the alien franchise and we both thought it was pretty good, but could've been better. With that being said, there's much to like about this film. Like most of the people who have seen it have said, the first act of the movie was really good. Even the second act was good to me, but the 3rd act had its issues. I also believe the cgi was a problem at some parts. But the movie was definitely entertaining. I could have done without the chestburster throwing his hands in the air and waving em like he just don't care, but I guess the symbolism was that the newborn looked at him as its parent or father and copied davids movements. Either way they could have done that a lot better, was kinda laughable. I also thought the idea of ricks and upworth gettting freaky in the shower at a time like that unbelievable. I mean you just lost damn Near the whole crew to your ship to a bunch of unexplainable shit with aliens and it's like they completely forgot about the past however many hours of hell that has been going on. Didn't like that, either should've been scrapped completely or done at a different time. I also don't get why they promoted the alien jumping in almost every commercial on tv yet it wasn't even in the film. But with all that said, the alien fan in me loved just seeing the story play out and I liked the ending although it was predictable. It was sinister, and def makes them be able to take the next movie a lot of places. I def want to see it again. I think this movie was geared towards the casual fan more than the alien fan honestly, meaning they wanted to bring in new fans to the franchise and keep it fresh, hence the new life cycles of the aliens and neomorphs. I think he was quite aware of the life cycle and the displeasure from hardcore fans that would come with it. But I also know the casual fan like my fiancé doesn't even know nor care about that, they just want to be scared and entertained. All in all, there's no such thing as a perfect movie imo, and this was far from that. But it was fun to watch and nice to look at mostly. I'd definitely recommend it to someone who isn't familiar with the alien franchise. I also understand why some are very unsatisfied by it though. My rating is 3.5 out of 5. Which is better than avg or just an ok movie but its not a great movie. I'd say up until David saves them I would give it 4.5 out of 5. Like it better than Prometheus although I like some things about Prometheus better. Prometheus def looks better in my opinion, but that's prolly about it. Can't wait to see it again
I just got back from seeing it and I enjoyed the film overall. It might the best sequel since Alien 3, but still can't touch the first two. I'm not sure if it's better than the third film quite yet? I think I need to see it again to make a final decision.
Michael Fassbender stole the show as Walter/David. I can't decide which droid performance I enjoyed better? Honestly, I didn't know if I'd care about Walter, but his scenes with Daniels were some of the best in the movie. David's God complex was certainly both sympathetic and disturbing. I know a lot of people had a problem with him communicating with the Neomorph, but I found that to be one of the character's more interesting moments. I also didn't have a problem with him being the (re)creator. I was on the fence about it, but when I saw how the film presented it, I liked it. One thing I didn't understand was where he got the eggs from?
Waterson made a believable heroine that didn't feel like a Ripley clone at all. She brought a real vulnerability to the role, especially in the early moments when she lost Branson. I wish they would've had some more James Franco in this. Why waste the talents of such a good actor?
Then there was Danny Mcbride and Billy Crudup who also turned in very good performances. I wish they would've had more of Mcbride too. Maybe in the next one they will.
The best scenes in the movie were the slaughter in the Medbay (backburster & throatbuster were both sick) and the wheat field attack. The movie never topped these moments, but I don't know how it could've? The Oram chestburster scene was good, but way to fast. I did like his final line to David, "What do you believe in?" The Alien fight on top of the drop ship was pretty good, but nothing special. Surprisingly, most of the CGI was very good with some shots looking like practical effects. Also, this film had the best score since Alien 3. I loved when the 'spores track' kicked in when Ledward began creating smoke rings.
The movie had me hook, line, and sinker up until the end.
Like other people have mentioned before me, the ending feels very tacked on. While I enjoyed the content, it felt so lifeless. I honestly wished they would've focused more on the Neomorphs. They were so much more interesting here. Also, what the hell happened to the second one? There were two right? I was pretty sure that the one escaped the ship before it exploded? I think it would've been better to have it on the ship at the end instead of the classic Xeno. The ending was the most frustrating part for me. I don't see how Lope get impregnated? That facehugger was on his face for like five seconds. I didn't buy that at all.
But the biggest problem I had with the film was how Shaw was just thrown into the film like a slaughtered piece of meat! Literally! That was bullshit right there. I was more accepting of not knowing how she died at all instead of seeing her rotting corpse lying on a table. ::) I really liked Shaw and I thought the character deserved more respect than this.
Also, the destruction of the Engineer home planet was also over way to fast. While visually creepy and gross, it really didn't leave much of an impression on me. This movie really needed to take a breath in some scenes, especially the end.
But even though I saw the twist coming a mile away, I still enjoyed it. The film definitely ends on a down note that I found refreshing.
I was going to give the film a 7.5, but after thinking about it for awhile, I'm going to give it a 7. I enjoyed it, but there were some problems. Mainly the ending.
My ranking:
Alien
Aliens
Alien 3
Covenant
Prometheus
AvP-R
AvP
Resurrection
Based purely on my personal enjoyment of the films and how rewatchable they are, I'd rank them -
Alien 3
Aliens / Alien (tie, depends on what mood I'm in)
Alien: Covenant
and then a sharp decline in quality to -
AVP
Prometheus
AVPR
Alien: Resurrection
I am not happy with Ridley Scott right now. Just got back from this movie and I can't believe how many people have liked it so far. I found the only improvement over Prometheus worth discussing (at this moment, obviously I need to see it again...eventually) to be the fact that Goldsmith's original score was quoted throughout.
There's so much for me to say I don't even know where to start. All I was hoping for was that it would be better than Alien Resurrection. I'm not even convinced it's better than Prometheus.
Quote from: Hudson on May 19, 2017, 10:29:27 PM
I am not happy with Ridley Scott right now. Just got back from this movie and I can't believe how many people have liked it so far. I found the only improvement over Prometheus worth discussing (at this moment, obviously I need to see it again...eventually) to be the fact that Goldsmith's original score was quoted throughout.
There's so much for me to say I don't even know where to start. All I was hoping for was that it would be better than Alien Resurrection. I'm not even convinced it's better than Prometheus.
Man anybody who truthfully thinks resurrection is better than covenant must smoke bath salts
Quote from: Fire Marshall Bill on May 19, 2017, 10:37:23 PM
Quote from: Hudson on May 19, 2017, 10:29:27 PM
I am not happy with Ridley Scott right now. Just got back from this movie and I can't believe how many people have liked it so far. I found the only improvement over Prometheus worth discussing (at this moment, obviously I need to see it again...eventually) to be the fact that Goldsmith's original score was quoted throughout.
There's so much for me to say I don't even know where to start. All I was hoping for was that it would be better than Alien Resurrection. I'm not even convinced it's better than Prometheus.
Man anybody who truthfully thinks resurrection is better than covenant must smoke bath salts
Not nearly as much bath salts as the person who proclaimed it the best of the franchise a couple posts back.
Quote from: Fire Marshall Bill on May 19, 2017, 10:37:23 PM
Quote from: Hudson on May 19, 2017, 10:29:27 PM
I am not happy with Ridley Scott right now. Just got back from this movie and I can't believe how many people have liked it so far. I found the only improvement over Prometheus worth discussing (at this moment, obviously I need to see it again...eventually) to be the fact that Goldsmith's original score was quoted throughout.
There's so much for me to say I don't even know where to start. All I was hoping for was that it would be better than Alien Resurrection. I'm not even convinced it's better than Prometheus.
Man anybody who truthfully thinks resurrection is better than covenant must smoke bath salts
I would rather take bath salts before watching it again than revisiting it sober. Maybe it would make some sense. Thanks though.
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 19, 2017, 10:04:22 PM
I just got back from seeing it and I enjoyed the film overall. It might the best sequel since Alien 3, but still can't touch the first two. I'm not sure if it's better than the third film quite yet? I think I need to see it again to make a final decision.
Michael Fassbender stole the show as Walter/David. I can't decide which droid performance I enjoyed better? Honestly, I didn't know if I'd care about Walter, but his scenes with Daniels were some of the best in the movie. David's God complex was certainly both sympathetic and disturbing. I know a lot of people had a problem with him communicating with the Neomorph, but I found that to be one of the character's more interesting moments. I also didn't have a problem with him being the (re)creator. I was on the fence about it, but when I saw how the film presented it, I liked it. One thing I didn't understand was where he got the eggs from?
Waterson made a believable heroine that didn't feel like a Ripley clone at all. She brought a real vulnerability to the role, especially in the early moments when she lost Branson. I wish they would've had some more James Franco in this. Why waste the talents of such a good actor?
Then there was Danny Mcbride and Billy Crudup who also turned in very good performances. I wish they would've had more of Mcbride too. Maybe in the next one they will.
The best scenes in the movie were the slaughter in the Medbay (backburster & throatbuster were both sick) and the wheat field attack. The movie never topped these moments, but I don't know how it could've? The Oram chestburster scene was good, but way to fast. I did like his final line to David, "What do you believe in?" The Alien fight on top of the drop ship was pretty good, but nothing special. Surprisingly, most of the CGI was very good with some shots looking like practical effects. Also, this film had the best score since Alien 3. I loved when the 'spores track' kicked in when Ledward began creating smoke rings.
The movie had me hook, line, and sinker up until the end.
Like other people have mentioned before me, the ending feels very tacked on. While I enjoyed the content, it felt so lifeless. I honestly wished they would've focused more on the Neomorphs. They were so much more interesting here. Also, what the hell happened to the second one? There were two right? I was pretty sure that the one escaped the ship before it exploded? I think it would've been better to have it on the ship at the end instead of the classic Xeno. The ending was the most frustrating part for me. I don't see how Lope get impregnated? That facehugger was on his face for like five seconds. I didn't buy that at all.
But the biggest problem I had with the film was how Shaw was just thrown into the film like a slaughtered piece of meat! Literally! That was bullshit, right there. I was more accepting of not knowing how she died at all instead of seeing her rotting corpse lying on a table. ::) I really liked Shaw and I thought the character deserved more respect than this.
Also, the destruction of the Engineer home planet was also over way to fast. While visually creepy and gross, it really didn't leave much of an impression on me. This movie really needed to take a breath in some scenes, especially the end.
But even though I saw the twist coming a mile away, I still enjoyed it. The film definitely ends on a down note that I found refreshing.
I was going to give the film a 7.5, but after thinking about it for awhile, I'm going to give it a 7. I enjoyed it, but there were some problems. Mainly the ending.
My ranking:
Alien
Aliens
Alien 3
Covenant
Prometheus
AvP- R
AvP
Resurrection
You brought up a complaint that I forgot to mention. I wanted more McBride! Hopefully we'll see more of him in the next installment.
Speaking of which, will McBride, David and Daniels be the leads for the next one? I really hope we get to see Daniels and McBride trying to escape from David.
Daniels and McBride might be dead with how this movie ended.
I can't believe I'm saying this but I think I enjoyed Crudup more than Fassbender.
And does anyone else think Covenant's sequel will have nothing to do with the colonists or the Covenant, with David as yet again the only strong thread?
lol I don't think waterson or McBride will survive in between movies
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on May 19, 2017, 10:59:20 PM
I can't believe I'm saying this but I think I enjoyed Crudup more than Fassbender.
And does anyone else think Covenant's sequel will have nothing to do with the colonists or the Covenant, with David as yet again the only strong thread?
It might. I mean that's what Ridley did here with the backstory of
Prometheus.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on May 19, 2017, 10:59:20 PM
I can't believe I'm saying this but I think I enjoyed Crudup more than Fassbender.
And does anyone else think Covenant's sequel will have nothing to do with the colonists or the Covenant, with David as yet again the only strong thread?
I enjoyed Crudup a lot as well. He gave a great performance.
I just saw covenant...
Quick question. There were rumors of a direct tie to Ripley, but I didn't catch it. Was it just a rumor after all? I certainly hope so!
And as for what I thought. The movie has merits, but there was more I found to be a let down than a pick up. My rating:
1) alien/aliens
2) alien 3
3) resurrection/covenant
4) Prometheus
I don't count the AVP films.
My biggest issue, from the photography standpoint, was the pacing of the film. :-/
I loved this film.
I enjoyed how it opened. I could never tire of watching Guy Pierce as Peter Weyland ever since he first appeared as such in that TED 2023 clip back in 2012.
The neomorphs stole the show here. The backburster, throatburster, and wheat field fight were all suspenseful and intriguing as f**k. David's attempt at communicating with the adult one worked out better than I thought it would.
Speaking of David, he's easily the anchor of this series thanks to the incredible and unique portrayal given to him by Fassbender. Playing the flute, executing the engineers en masse, and the twist at the end all deserve mentions.
I really enjoyed how Ridley Scott retained the philosophical and thematic elements from Prometheus. I was worried that some obnoxious fans were going to convince him not to. It really adds another much needed dimension to this series. I never understood the people who want a copy of Alien and Aliens.
Overall, my ranking goes:
Alien
Aliens / Alien Covenant
Prometheus
Alien 3 Assembly
Alien Resurrection
AVPR
AVP
Quote from: Hudson on May 19, 2017, 10:45:14 PM
Man anybody who truthfully thinks resurrection is better than covenant must smoke bath salts
I'm curious to see how most people with settle with this movies a few months from now on. Regardless, I've been baffled for years by the way virtually everyone in the internet seems to still think that A:R is the worst thing ever that's happened to the Alien franchise after AvP and Prometheus. :P
Quote from: Butterfly on May 19, 2017, 11:44:58 PM
Quote from: Hudson on May 19, 2017, 10:45:14 PM
Man anybody who truthfully thinks resurrection is better than covenant must smoke bath salts
I'm curious to see how most people with settle with this movies a few months from now on. Regardless, I've been baffled for years by the way virtually everyone in the internet seems to still think that A:R is the worst thing ever that's happened to the Alien franchise after AvP and Prometheus. :P
I've tried to give
Resurrection the benefit of the doubt many times. I love the opening act, but when the Aliens escape it just goes down hill from there. I loved the Ripley 8 character, the underwater and ladder escape scenes. The Newborn is a wonderful creation of practical effects by ADI. I just didn't like the film's inconstant tone and from serious to dark comedy.
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 10, 2017, 06:01:10 AM
01) Alien
02) Aliens
03) Alien: Covenant
04) Prometheus
05) Alien 3
06) AVP
07) Alien Resurrection
08) AVP: Requiem
I'm with you on this review. Though Aliens will always be number one for me, I feel very similar about the rest.
My ranking;
1. "Alien"
2. "Aliens"
3. "Prometheus"
4. "Covenant"
5. "Alien 3: Assembly Cut"
6. "Alien: Resurrection" (theatrical cut)
7. "AVP: Aliens vs Predator"
8. "AVP: Requiem";
* "Covenant" is solid in several areas; cast/acting, set design, creatures, pace and tone.
- The story may drag a bit but it is interesting because of the David character and what he does.
- As a horror film it's OK. It is more creepy that scary.
But as an action/adventure movie, "Covenant" has several effective sequences.
;)
Just got out of the theater and all I can say is Wow! I loved it from beginning to end... and even though I saw the twist ending coming a mile away, it was still thoroughly enjoyable. I can't wait to see it again!
My ranking:
Alien
Aliens
Alien: Covenant
Alien 3
Prometheus
AvP
AvP: R
Alien Resurrection
Edit: After reading the last couple of pages, I'm surprised no one has commented on David's rather obvious switch in behavior after Orem wastes the adult Neomorph that David was trying to communicate with. To me, it's almost like Orems actions showed David that his distaste/hatred of humanity is justified. I have to wonder if David would have taken Orem down to the lab if things had played out differently....
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 01:26:26 AM
Just got out of the theater and all I can say is Wow! I loved it from beginning to end... and even though I saw the twist ending coming a mile away, it was still thoroughly enjoyable. I can't wait to see it again!
My ranking:
Alien
Aliens
Alien: Covenant
Alien 3
Prometheus
AvP
AvP: R
Alien Resurrection
Edit: After reading the last couple of pages, I'm surprised no one has commented on David's rather obvious switch in behavior after Orem wastes the adult Neomorph that David was trying to communicate with. To me, it's almost like Orems actions showed David that his distaste/hatred of humanity is justified. I have to wonder if David would have taken Orem down to the lab if things had played out differently....
Good question. Oram actually requested for David to show him what was going on and David merely complied :D
Quote from: cucuchu on May 20, 2017, 02:23:24 AM
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 01:26:26 AM
Just got out of the theater and all I can say is Wow! I loved it from beginning to end... and even though I saw the twist ending coming a mile away, it was still thoroughly enjoyable. I can't wait to see it again!
My ranking:
Alien
Aliens
Alien: Covenant
Alien 3
Prometheus
AvP
AvP: R
Alien Resurrection
Edit: After reading the last couple of pages, I'm surprised no one has commented on David's rather obvious switch in behavior after Orem wastes the adult Neomorph that David was trying to communicate with. To me, it's almost like Orems actions showed David that his distaste/hatred of humanity is justified. I have to wonder if David would have taken Orem down to the lab if things had played out differently....
Good question. Oram actually requested for David to show him what was going on and David merely complied :D
Exactly. Until that point, he didn't seem interested in taking anyone down to the lab. Perhaps he saved them from the Neomorohs because he figured they may have been nice like Shaw and Orems actions showed he was wrong and that switched him into Mad Scientist mode.
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 02:43:59 AM
Quote from: cucuchu on May 20, 2017, 02:23:24 AM
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 01:26:26 AM
Just got out of the theater and all I can say is Wow! I loved it from beginning to end... and even though I saw the twist ending coming a mile away, it was still thoroughly enjoyable. I can't wait to see it again!
My ranking:
Alien
Aliens
Alien: Covenant
Alien 3
Prometheus
AvP
AvP: R
Alien Resurrection
Edit: After reading the last couple of pages, I'm surprised no one has commented on David's rather obvious switch in behavior after Orem wastes the adult Neomorph that David was trying to communicate with. To me, it's almost like Orems actions showed David that his distaste/hatred of humanity is justified. I have to wonder if David would have taken Orem down to the lab if things had played out differently....
Good question. Oram actually requested for David to show him what was going on and David merely complied :D
Exactly. Until that point, he didn't seem interested in taking anyone down to the lab. Perhaps he saved them from the Neomorohs because he figured they may have been nice like Shaw and Orems actions showed he was wrong and that switched him into Mad Scientist mode.
Perhaps, though I believe he was unravelling before that. He had already incorrectly named the author of the poem...something was not right. Oh yeah and the genocide of the engineers and harvesting of Shaw's bio matter.
Quote from: cucuchu on May 20, 2017, 02:52:28 AM
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 02:43:59 AM
Quote from: cucuchu on May 20, 2017, 02:23:24 AM
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 01:26:26 AM
Just got out of the theater and all I can say is Wow! I loved it from beginning to end... and even though I saw the twist ending coming a mile away, it was still thoroughly enjoyable. I can't wait to see it again!
My ranking:
Alien
Aliens
Alien: Covenant
Alien 3
Prometheus
AvP
AvP: R
Alien Resurrection
Edit: After reading the last couple of pages, I'm surprised no one has commented on David's rather obvious switch in behavior after Orem wastes the adult Neomorph that David was trying to communicate with. To me, it's almost like Orems actions showed David that his distaste/hatred of humanity is justified. I have to wonder if David would have taken Orem down to the lab if things had played out differently....
Good question. Oram actually requested for David to show him what was going on and David merely complied :D
Exactly. Until that point, he didn't seem interested in taking anyone down to the lab. Perhaps he saved them from the Neomorohs because he figured they may have been nice like Shaw and Orems actions showed he was wrong and that switched him into Mad Scientist mode.
Perhaps, though I believe he was unravelling before that. He had already incorrectly named the author of the poem...something was not right. Oh yeah and the genocide of the engineers and harvesting of Shaw's bio matter.
Yea there was definitely a biopolar Dr Jekyl/Mr Hyde thing going there... like he was sincere in his love of Shaw... but he obviously did horrible things to her body.
"They want Aliens, I'll give them f**king Aliens."
This quote from Ridley Scott echoed through my mind as I watched Alien: Covenant. It doesn't feel like Scott's heart was in this one, and as a result, it doesn't do what Prometheus did well, nor does it do what a quality Alien film should do well. Well, at least most of the time.
The one truly good, high tension scene was the backburster. I also did like the birth of the Alien, it wasn't as bad as so many have reported. But the rest of the scenes with the Aliens and Neomorphs felt hollow and rushed. Clearly Ridley has no interest in making a creature feature. There is no good sequence with it. At least every Alien movie prior had that one lengthy sequence where the Alien gets to shine and do its thing. This movie doesn't have that.
I was hoping at least that the David scenes would pop as I've heard, but surprisingly I didn't even really like those. It was fine, but dragged the movie down.
The characters are much more generic and red-shirt than Prometheus. Say what you want about that film, but at least I knew most of the characters' names. That said, they are acted well.
There are a lot of good ideas in Covenant, but it feels like it was all shoved into a rather bland blockbuster format. It feels empty; like the many modern blockbusters of today. I thought the film would at least be thoughtful, but it's really not.
If this is what the remaining Alien films going forward are going to be, than I don't really know how to feel. It's hard to believe the same person who made Alien made this. Then again, that was nearly 40 years ago, Scott is a different person. But honestly, I'd rather keep in the tradition of the classic films and allow new visionary directors make Alien movies, because Ridley doesn't seem like he wants to.
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 03:09:52 AM
"They want Aliens, I'll give them f**king Aliens."
This quote from Ridley Scott echoed through my mind as I watched Alien: Covenant. It doesn't feel like Scott's heart was in this one, and as a result, it doesn't do what Prometheus did well, nor does it do what a quality Alien film should do well. Well, at least most of the time.
The one truly good, high tension scene was the backburster. I also did like the birth of the Alien, it wasn't as bad as so many have reported. But the rest of the scenes with the Aliens and Neomorphs felt hollow and rushed. Clearly Ridley has no interest in making a creature feature. There is no good sequence with it. At least every Alien movie prior had that one lengthy sequence where the Alien gets to shine and do its thing. This movie doesn't have that.
I was hoping at least that the David scenes would pop as I've heard, but surprisingly I didn't even really like those. It was fine, but dragged the movie down.
The characters are much more generic and red-shirt than Prometheus. Say what you want about that film, but at least I knew most of the characters' names. That said, they are acted well.
There are a lot of good ideas in Covenant, but it feels like it was all shoved into a rather bland blockbuster format. It feels empty; like the many modern blockbusters of today. I thought the film would at least be thoughtful, but it's really not.
If this is what the remaining Alien films going forward are going to be, than I don't really know how to feel. It's hard to believe the same person who made Alien made this. Then again, that was nearly 40 years ago, Scott is a different person. But honestly, I'd rather keep in the tradition of the classic films and allow new visionary directors make Alien movies, because Ridley doesn't seem like he wants to.
Summed up my thoughts perfectly. It felt really hollow. Going through the motions, a'la Spielberg on The Lost World.
I love it. David's interactions with Walter were by far the best parts of the film for me. I also couldn't get enough of the mythology they were building around the Alien's and their origins. I would have liked more exposition regarding the engineers but oh well...Also that ending. That dark as f**k ending. Loved it. Can't wait to see it again.
(P.S. I want to give a big shout out to Ridley for retconning the AVP movies out of existence. Well done.)
I thought the movie was decent. It's better than Prometheus, but it's still weighed down by the fact it's basically Prometheus Part 2. I was not hype up for the movie and did not follow any news of the movie. I went into the movie with little to no hope on it being good and I was like "Not bad, but not good neither". It is probably the best decent Alien movie since Alien 3, but we have yet to have a good Alien movie since 1986. Not to mention this movie still didn't even answer any questions from the last movie and instead was also written to lead into the next movie. I also didn't care for any character in this movie expect for David.
I think a 6.5/19 seems a good rating for the movie.
Quote from: marrerom on May 20, 2017, 03:17:56 AM
I love it. David's interactions with Walter were by far the best parts of the film for me. I also couldn't get enough of the mythology they were building around the Alien's and their origins. I would have liked more exposition regarding the engineers but oh well...Also that ending. That dark as f**k ending. Loved it. Can't wait to see it again.
(P.S. I want to give a big shout out to Ridley for retconning the AVP movies out of existence. Well done.)
You mean with David being the creator of the Alien?
I get it. Some people like this movie, that's fine whatever. I'm not mad.
BUT, I want someone to make an attempt at justifying the dancing chestburster for me. I'm not going back through pages and pages to find this response if it's already been given, so link me if it's already been explained. Give me your best shot on that, because no matter how much my opinion of this movie softens with time, that is never not going to be both the most idiotic and point-and-laugh hilarious moment in the film.
After thinking about it some, I think I can personally rank all the films since people are doing it. I don't feel like leaving out the Predator movies if the AvP movies are included though. This may change the next time I watch Covenant:
Aliens
Alien
Predator
Alien 3
Predator 2
Alien Resurrection
Prometheus/Alien Covenant
AvP
Predators
AvPR
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 20, 2017, 03:24:58 AM
Quote from: marrerom on May 20, 2017, 03:17:56 AM
(P.S. I want to give a big shout out to Ridley for retconning the AVP movies out of existence. Well done.)
You mean with David being the creator of the Alien?
Yeah. Cant have Aliens running around in ancient Mayan cities if they hadn't been created yet.
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 03:09:52 AM
"They want Aliens, I'll give them f**king Aliens."
This quote from Ridley Scott echoed through my mind as I watched Alien: Covenant. It doesn't feel like Scott's heart was in this one, and as a result, it doesn't do what Prometheus did well, nor does it do what a quality Alien film should do well. Well, at least most of the time.
The one truly good, high tension scene was the backburster. I also did like the birth of the Alien, it wasn't as bad as so many have reported. But the rest of the scenes with the Aliens and Neomorphs felt hollow and rushed. Clearly Ridley has no interest in making a creature feature. There is no good sequence with it. At least every Alien movie prior had that one lengthy sequence where the Alien gets to shine and do its thing. This movie doesn't have that.
I was hoping at least that the David scenes would pop as I've heard, but surprisingly I didn't even really like those. It was fine, but dragged the movie down.
The characters are much more generic and red-shirt than Prometheus. Say what you want about that film, but at least I knew most of the characters' names. That said, they are acted well.
There are a lot of good ideas in Covenant, but it feels like it was all shoved into a rather bland blockbuster format. It feels empty; like the many modern blockbusters of today. I thought the film would at least be thoughtful, but it's really not.
If this is what the remaining Alien films going forward are going to be, than I don't really know how to feel. It's hard to believe the same person who made Alien made this. Then again, that was nearly 40 years ago, Scott is a different person. But honestly, I'd rather keep in the tradition of the classic films and allow new visionary directors make Alien movies, because Ridley doesn't seem like he wants to.
I respect your opinion, but I really don't share them or agree with them. I think Ridley was in top form with this movie and while it is not a perfect film (no such creature, really), it is certainly an enjoyable ride from start to finish. The few things that I found wrong with the movie are, in my eyes, minor nitpicks at best and hardly worth bringing up as I recognize they are nitpicks and nothing more.
At the end of the day, maybe one's perception and enjoyment of the movie depends on the expectations and emotional baggage the viewer brings into the theater. I went into the theater hoping to see an Alien movie and lo and behold... that's what I got. Maybe if I went in expecting a Prometheus movie, I would be disappointed and likely angry. But to me, it's an Alien movie and it's certainly a far better Alien movie than anything we've gotten in the last 20 some odd years. It's a far more coherent and enjoyable film to watch than the theatrical cut of Alien 3 and it's not even in the same dimension as Alien: Resurrection (which is, in my opinion, a pilot for Firefly masquerading as an Alien film). And it's certainly far more enjoyable than the AvP films.
It also has the side effect of making me view Prometheus in a fonder, albeit slightly more somber light. Seeing the depths that David sinks to in Covenant makes his journey in Prometheus far more enjoyable than it already was in the first place. I can't wait to watch it again now so I can see if I can detect hints of David's bipolar God Complex present in that film. And of course, knowing that Shaw ultimately dies will make seeing her trials and suffering in Prometheus a more somber experience. Like the Set Designer that Hicks interviewed a few months back said, I think Covenant will make Prometheus a far better (or at the very least, I'll find it more enjoyable) than it was a week ago when I watched it in my pre-Covenant hype-building marathon.
QuoteI think Ridley was in top form
You realize by saying that, you're comparing Alien Covenant to: Alien...Blade Runner...Gladiator...Black Hawk Down...American Gangster...maybe even Black Rain or Legend if you want to go there.
I disagree. This is nowhere near how good he's been in the past. No way.
Also, how is Resurrection a pilot for Firefly if Whedon disowned it essentially?
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 03:36:47 AM
QuoteI think Ridley was in top form
You realize by saying that, you're comparing Alien Covenant to: Alien...Blade Runner...Gladiator...Black Hawk Down...American Gangster...maybe even Black Rain or Legend if you want to go there.
I disagree. This is nowhere near how good he's been in the past. No way.
Also, how is Resurrection a pilot for Firefly if Whedon disowned it essentially?
We agree to disagree then. Nothing wrong with that. =)
EDIT: To expand on that, let me say that I don't think Alien: Covenant is in the same category as the movies you listed. But I do think that there is an element of personal taste in some of the movies you have listed. I note you didn't include GI Jane in that list of yours. Also absent is Thelma and Louise, also directed by Ridley Scott. Perhaps it's safe to say that when it comes to comparing the works of a director, there is a definite element of personal taste that is far more prevalent than when comparing films?
EDIT: And Whedon can disown Resurrection as much as he wants. Doesn't change the fact that the characters and setting in that movie bear a striking resemblance to Firefly.
Thelma and Louise I forgot.
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 03:25:45 AM
I get it. Some people like this movie, that's fine whatever. I'm not mad.
BUT, I want someone to make an attempt at justifying the dancing chestburster for me. I'm not going back through pages and pages to find this response if it's already been given, so link me if it's already been explained. Give me your best shot on that, because no matter how much my opinion of this movie softens with time, that is never not going to be both the most idiotic and point-and-laugh hilarious moment in the film.
After thinking about it some, I think I can personally rank all the films since people are doing it. I don't feel like leaving out the Predator movies if the AvP movies are included though. This may change the next time I watch Covenant:
Aliens
Alien
Predator
Alien 3
Predator 2
Alien Resurrection
Prometheus/Alien Covenant
AvP
Predators
AvPR
Was it dancing? I thought it was doing a 'monkey see, monkey do kind of thing.' I don't know it's a weird moment. It almost seems to know that David is its master.
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 03:46:52 AM
Thelma and Louise I forgot.
I should also point out that I am of the blasphemous opinion that Blade Runner is an absolutely boring movie to watch. It's right up there with 2001 in my opinion. Both are standout films that have had a definite impact on cinema.... but both are far too pretentious and ponderously paced for me to enjoy. They are both, in my opinion, films that need to be seen at least once... but neither are movies that I would want to watch again.
So like I said, personal taste. Gotta love it. =)
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 20, 2017, 03:48:57 AM
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 03:25:45 AM
I get it. Some people like this movie, that's fine whatever. I'm not mad.
BUT, I want someone to make an attempt at justifying the dancing chestburster for me. I'm not going back through pages and pages to find this response if it's already been given, so link me if it's already been explained. Give me your best shot on that, because no matter how much my opinion of this movie softens with time, that is never not going to be both the most idiotic and point-and-laugh hilarious moment in the film.
After thinking about it some, I think I can personally rank all the films since people are doing it. I don't feel like leaving out the Predator movies if the AvP movies are included though. This may change the next time I watch Covenant:
Aliens
Alien
Predator
Alien 3
Predator 2
Alien Resurrection
Prometheus/Alien Covenant
AvP
Predators
AvPR
Was it dancing? I thought it was doing a 'monkey see, monkey do kind of thing.' I don't know it's a weird moment. It almost seems to know that David is its master.
I looked at the scene as the chestburster imprinting itself on what it viewed was it's "parent". The adult Neomorph was almost doing the same thing with opening it's mouth a little like it was blowing air into a flute before Orem blasted it. In fact, I would say the Neomorph's behavior sets the precedent for the chestburster's behavior.
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 03:54:47 AM
That's fair. But...yikes.
I know, right? I need to break out the flame-retardant suit and batten down the hatches to prepare for the inevitable flames that are about to be launched at me for daring to voice a contrary opinion about the highly-regarded masterpiece that is Blade Runner. But still, that's just my opinion of the movie. I'm not nearly delusional enough to fool myself into thinking I can convince other people that my opinion is law. =)
Yea I didn't really like the connection between David and the creatures either...
... and I'm still trying to decide whether David kissing Walter was homosexual or narcissistic...
And for the record, NO, I'm not trying to be insulting to any homosexuals that might be browsing around here. Just an observation from the film.
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 03:32:20 AM
I respect your opinion, but I really don't share them or agree with them. I think Ridley was in top form with this movie and while it is not a perfect film (no such creature, really), it is certainly an enjoyable ride from start to finish. The few things that I found wrong with the movie are, in my eyes, minor nitpicks at best and hardly worth bringing up as I recognize they are nitpicks and nothing more.
At the end of the day, maybe one's perception and enjoyment of the movie depends on the expectations and emotional baggage the viewer brings into the theater. I went into the theater hoping to see an Alien movie and lo and behold... that's what I got. Maybe if I went in expecting a Prometheus movie, I would be disappointed and likely angry. But to me, it's an Alien movie and it's certainly a far better Alien movie than anything we've gotten in the last 20 some odd years. It's a far more coherent and enjoyable film to watch than the theatrical cut of Alien 3 and it's not even in the same dimension as Alien: Resurrection (which is, in my opinion, a pilot for Firefly masquerading as an Alien film). And it's certainly far more enjoyable than the AvP films.
It also has the side effect of making me view Prometheus in a fonder, albeit slightly more somber light. Seeing the depths that David sinks to in Covenant makes his journey in Prometheus far more enjoyable than it already was in the first place. I can't wait to watch it again now so I can see if I can detect hints of David's bipolar God Complex present in that film. And of course, knowing that Shaw ultimately dies will make seeing her trials and suffering in Prometheus a more somber experience. Like the Set Designer that Hicks interviewed a few months back said, I think Covenant will make Prometheus a far better (or at the very least, I'll find it more enjoyable) than it was a week ago when I watched it in my pre-Covenant hype-building marathon.
I was very
very willing to give Covenant a chance. I was defending some of the creative decisions before I had even seen it, willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. But I was just not very engaged as I was watching it, but if you where then that's great. :) But for me, the longer it meandered in David's shop of horrors, the more disengaged I got. And none of the action scenes stood out, in fact I was kind of shocked how "meh" they were coming from Ridley Scott ,especially the last 15 minutes.
Quote... and I'm still trying to decide whether David kissing Walter was homosexual or narcissistic...
That was also a moment my friend and I laughed at.
I think in the next movie, David should kiss everyone he kills before he does so.
Also, why did no one find it suspicious that David converted his hair to be exactly like Walter's immediately after they met him?
Yea I saw the switch coming a mile away...
And, btw, I didn't like blade runner either. I'm just into the noir type films. I respect it, just didn't like it all that much...
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 04:02:17 AM
Quote... and I'm still trying to decide whether David kissing Walter was homosexual or narcissistic...
That was also a moment my friend and I laughed at.
I think in the next movie, David should kiss everyone he kills before he does so.
Also, why did no one find it suspicious that David converted his hair to be exactly like Walter's immediately after they met him?
I didn't find it suspicious... I viewed it as David seeing an opportunity to replace Walter and escape the planet with the Covenant crew. I'm willing to bet that if Orem hadn't blasted the Neomorph, David would have quietly disposed of Walter and the Covenant crew would have left with David masquerading as Walter and that would have been that. I think Orem's actions triggered the biopolar switch in David that made him go from passive Prometheus-era David into Mad Scientist David and that's what led to the lab, eggs, and chestbursters. We'll probably never know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that David's original plan was to get on board the Covenant with his facehugger embryo's and sabotage the crew once they were back in cryosleep (in essence, the entire 2nd half of the movie would not have happened). Orem's actions likely led to David improvising due to wanting to get even with Orem for what he viewed was the wanton murder of the Neomorph.
EDIT: And I didn't find David kissing Walter to be homoerotic. I felt it was definitely narcissistic.
Oh and uh, I guess artificial people grow hair? Didn't know that! :-)
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 04:01:49 AM
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 03:32:20 AM
I respect your opinion, but I really don't share them or agree with them. I think Ridley was in top form with this movie and while it is not a perfect film (no such creature, really), it is certainly an enjoyable ride from start to finish. The few things that I found wrong with the movie are, in my eyes, minor nitpicks at best and hardly worth bringing up as I recognize they are nitpicks and nothing more.
At the end of the day, maybe one's perception and enjoyment of the movie depends on the expectations and emotional baggage the viewer brings into the theater. I went into the theater hoping to see an Alien movie and lo and behold... that's what I got. Maybe if I went in expecting a Prometheus movie, I would be disappointed and likely angry. But to me, it's an Alien movie and it's certainly a far better Alien movie than anything we've gotten in the last 20 some odd years. It's a far more coherent and enjoyable film to watch than the theatrical cut of Alien 3 and it's not even in the same dimension as Alien: Resurrection (which is, in my opinion, a pilot for Firefly masquerading as an Alien film). And it's certainly far more enjoyable than the AvP films.
It also has the side effect of making me view Prometheus in a fonder, albeit slightly more somber light. Seeing the depths that David sinks to in Covenant makes his journey in Prometheus far more enjoyable than it already was in the first place. I can't wait to watch it again now so I can see if I can detect hints of David's bipolar God Complex present in that film. And of course, knowing that Shaw ultimately dies will make seeing her trials and suffering in Prometheus a more somber experience. Like the Set Designer that Hicks interviewed a few months back said, I think Covenant will make Prometheus a far better (or at the very least, I'll find it more enjoyable) than it was a week ago when I watched it in my pre-Covenant hype-building marathon.
I was very very willing to give Covenant a chance. I was defending some of the creative decisions before I had even seen it, willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. But I was just not very engaged as I was watching it, but if you where then that's great. :) But for me, the longer it meandered in David's shop of horrors, the more disengaged I got. And none of the action scenes stood out, in fact I was kind of shocked how "meh" they were coming from Ridley Scott ,especially the last 15 minutes.
It is impossible for me to believe that this was the same guy who just directed THE MARTIAN. That movie had so much energy and kept audiences maximally engaged.
Actually, upon really thinking about it, this was not really very good. Just so much confusion. Ridley got so cocky. "I could do this in my sleep!" He wasn't engaged, he didn't think he had to earn it seeing as how he made Alien. Even Prometheus had all of the flair of The Martian, but not this movie.
Seriously, what was with that f**king scene where they fix the solar panels for like 5 minutes? Who f**king cares?! I mean I like that shit but if you're going to rush the movie then transfer over those precious minutes towards sections that f**king count.
QuoteI viewed it as David seeing an opportunity to replace Walter and escape the planet with the Covenant crew.
Yes, that's obvious. I mean the characters. Why did no one comment on the fact that he made himself look exactly like their synthetic? Wouldn't those characters have found it suspicious? Oh wait, they're poorly written so no.
I do have to say I was pleased with Danny McBride. I was VERY skeptical of his involvement.
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 04:10:24 AM
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 04:02:17 AM
Quote... and I'm still trying to decide whether David kissing Walter was homosexual or narcissistic...
That was also a moment my friend and I laughed at.
I think in the next movie, David should kiss everyone he kills before he does so.
Also, why did no one find it suspicious that David converted his hair to be exactly like Walter's immediately after they met him?
I didn't find it suspicious... I viewed it as David seeing an opportunity to replace Walter and escape the planet with the Covenant crew. I'm willing to bet that if Orem hadn't blasted the Neomorph, David would have quietly disposed of Walter and the Covenant crew would have left with David masquerading as Walter and that would have been that. I think Orem's actions triggered the biopolar switch in David that made him go from passive Prometheus-era David into Mad Scientist David and that's what led to the lab, eggs, and chestbursters. We'll probably never know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that David's original plan was to get on board the Covenant with his facehugger embryo's and sabotage the crew once they were back in cryosleep (in essence, the entire 2nd half of the movie would not have happened). Orem's actions likely led to David improvising due to wanting to get even with Orem for what he viewed was the wanton murder of the Neomorph.
EDIT: And I didn't find David kissing Walter to be homoerotic. I felt it was definitely narcissistic.
I think he meant why didn't the characters find it suspicious...
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on May 20, 2017, 04:12:08 AM
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 04:01:49 AM
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 03:32:20 AM
I respect your opinion, but I really don't share them or agree with them. I think Ridley was in top form with this movie and while it is not a perfect film (no such creature, really), it is certainly an enjoyable ride from start to finish. The few things that I found wrong with the movie are, in my eyes, minor nitpicks at best and hardly worth bringing up as I recognize they are nitpicks and nothing more.
At the end of the day, maybe one's perception and enjoyment of the movie depends on the expectations and emotional baggage the viewer brings into the theater. I went into the theater hoping to see an Alien movie and lo and behold... that's what I got. Maybe if I went in expecting a Prometheus movie, I would be disappointed and likely angry. But to me, it's an Alien movie and it's certainly a far better Alien movie than anything we've gotten in the last 20 some odd years. It's a far more coherent and enjoyable film to watch than the theatrical cut of Alien 3 and it's not even in the same dimension as Alien: Resurrection (which is, in my opinion, a pilot for Firefly masquerading as an Alien film). And it's certainly far more enjoyable than the AvP films.
It also has the side effect of making me view Prometheus in a fonder, albeit slightly more somber light. Seeing the depths that David sinks to in Covenant makes his journey in Prometheus far more enjoyable than it already was in the first place. I can't wait to watch it again now so I can see if I can detect hints of David's bipolar God Complex present in that film. And of course, knowing that Shaw ultimately dies will make seeing her trials and suffering in Prometheus a more somber experience. Like the Set Designer that Hicks interviewed a few months back said, I think Covenant will make Prometheus a far better (or at the very least, I'll find it more enjoyable) than it was a week ago when I watched it in my pre-Covenant hype-building marathon.
I was very very willing to give Covenant a chance. I was defending some of the creative decisions before I had even seen it, willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. But I was just not very engaged as I was watching it, but if you where then that's great. :) But for me, the longer it meandered in David's shop of horrors, the more disengaged I got. And none of the action scenes stood out, in fact I was kind of shocked how "meh" they were coming from Ridley Scott ,especially the last 15 minutes.
It is impossible for me to believe that this was the same guy who just directed THE MARTIAN. That movie had so much energy and kept audiences maximally engaged.
Actually, upon really thinking about it, this was probably one of the worst movies I've ever seen. Just so much confusion. Ridley got so cocky. "I could do this in my sleep!" He wasn't engaged, he didn't think he had to earn it seeing as how he made Alien. Even Prometheus had all of the flair of The Martian, but not this movie.
Seriously, what was with that f**king scene where they fix the solar panels for like 5 minutes? Who f**king cares?! I mean I like that shit but if you're going to rush the movie then transfer over those precious minutes towards sections that f**king count.
Because if he had rushed through the pre-landing segment of the film, he would then be (rightfully) accused of rushing the character setups to get to the planet and sacrificing character development in favor of mindless action set-pieces ala Michael Bay. As it stands, I think you may be missing the point of the solar sail scene. The whole point of that scene was to show the crew working as a team much like Brett and Parker worked as a team in Alien. It also was necessary as they needed a crew member to be far enough away from the ship in order for the suit to pickup Shaw's signal from the planet. Something that the movie actually pointed out when one of the crew asked why the ship's communications array didn't pickup the signal. And if you take away the solar sail repair scene, how exactly are you going to get a crew member outside the ship and far enough away from the ship to pick up said signal without coming across as contrived?
I did not expect to enjoy Covenant as much as I did. Absolutely loved it.
Solid 8/10
Quote from: Engineer on May 20, 2017, 04:13:45 AM
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 04:10:24 AM
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 04:02:17 AM
Quote... and I'm still trying to decide whether David kissing Walter was homosexual or narcissistic...
That was also a moment my friend and I laughed at.
I think in the next movie, David should kiss everyone he kills before he does so.
Also, why did no one find it suspicious that David converted his hair to be exactly like Walter's immediately after they met him?
I didn't find it suspicious... I viewed it as David seeing an opportunity to replace Walter and escape the planet with the Covenant crew. I'm willing to bet that if Orem hadn't blasted the Neomorph, David would have quietly disposed of Walter and the Covenant crew would have left with David masquerading as Walter and that would have been that. I think Orem's actions triggered the biopolar switch in David that made him go from passive Prometheus-era David into Mad Scientist David and that's what led to the lab, eggs, and chestbursters. We'll probably never know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that David's original plan was to get on board the Covenant with his facehugger embryo's and sabotage the crew once they were back in cryosleep (in essence, the entire 2nd half of the movie would not have happened). Orem's actions likely led to David improvising due to wanting to get even with Orem for what he viewed was the wanton murder of the Neomorph.
EDIT: And I didn't find David kissing Walter to be homoerotic. I felt it was definitely narcissistic.
I think he meant why didn't the characters find it suspicious...
You mean the characters that were clearly traumatized after surviving the Neomorph attack and probably weren't thinking clearly? Or perhaps there is a deleted bit of dialog where David tells them to make themselves at home, or at least, as much at home as is possible inside a Necropolis while he goes and cleans himself up to make himself presentable for his guests.
Actually, I'm going to go with the deleted bit of dialog excuse. Since David was still in passive Prometheus-era servant mode at that point in time, him wanting to clean himself up so as to be presentable for his guests would be in keeping with the servant persona that he established in Prometheus.
The dialogue where he tells everyone to make themselves at home wasn't deleted when I saw it.
QuoteYou mean the characters that were clearly traumatized after surviving the Neomorph attack and probably weren't thinking clearly?
They would have noticed that suddenly, the two androids look nearly the same. He changed his hair color...come on. This movie is full of holes so big at times you can drive a Mack truck through them. Prometheus and Covenant are such a mess together in terms of trying to expand on what was simply plotted as a monster movie that I almost want to root for the next Alien prequel movie to be terrible.
Quote from: Predaker on May 20, 2017, 04:19:20 AM
I did not expect to enjoy Covenant as much as I did. Absolutely loved it.
Solid 8/10
That's the score I would give it as well. Like I said earlier, it's not a perfect movie, but it is a damn good movie and is, in my opinion, the best Alien movie we've gotten in 20+ years. It's not as good as Alien and Aliens, but that doesn't take anything away from Covenant since there's no way any movie could ever be as good as those two movies. To even try would most likely be met with derision or outrage.
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 04:27:00 AM
The dialogue where he tells everyone to make themselves at home wasn't deleted when I saw it.
QuoteYou mean the characters that were clearly traumatized after surviving the Neomorph attack and probably weren't thinking clearly?
They would have noticed that suddenly, the two androids look nearly the same. He changed his hair color...come on. This movie is full of holes so big at times you can drive a Mack truck through them. Prometheus and Covenant are such a mess together in terms of trying to expand on what was simply plotted as a monster movie that I almost want to root for the next Alien prequel movie to be terrible.
I quoted the scene as it was presented in the film along with what I think was likely the snipped element.
DIALOG IN THE MOVIE:
DAVID: Make yourself at home, or at least as much at home as is possible inside this Necropolis.
UN-EDITED DIALOG:
DAVID: Make yourself at home, or at least as much at home as is possible inside this Necropolis. I will return after I have made myself more presentable. Ten years of solitude has left it's mark on me, I'm afraid.
I can certainly see the dialog being cut down as it would have been viewed as unnecessary exposition.
Wait, so you're assuming that there is deleted dialogue, which you are using in defense of a total lapse in the characters' plain observations of what's right in front of them?
Not valid.
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 04:27:00 AM
The dialogue where he tells everyone to make themselves at home wasn't deleted when I saw it.
QuoteYou mean the characters that were clearly traumatized after surviving the Neomorph attack and probably weren't thinking clearly?
They would have noticed that suddenly, the two androids look nearly the same. He changed his hair color...come on. This movie is full of holes so big at times you can drive a Mack truck through them. Prometheus and Covenant are such a mess together in terms of trying to expand on what was simply plotted as a monster movie that I almost want to root for the next Alien prequel movie to be terrible.
With all due respect, perhaps the issue is with your own expectations on what these movies should be doing rather than what they are actually doing? Mind you, there's nothing wrong with this per se.... and I don't ask that to be combative or argumentative... am merely suggesting that the holes you are seeing are a result of the movies not meshing with your own ideas rather than any actual holes in the movies.
To me, Covenant does a pretty good job of avoiding plotholes. Yes it does take certain liberties that fans like us are sure to take issue with, but I wouldn't call those liberties plotholes necessarily. The Aliens in the movie are not the same as the Big Chap, so I'm OK with them having a shortened gestation time, for example.
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 04:34:55 AM
Wait, so you're assuming that there is deleted dialogue, which you are using in defense of a total lapse in the characters' plain observations of what's right in front of them?
Not valid.
There's an awful lot of assuming going on right now on both sides of the fence. If I choose to believe there was a bit of dialog snipped from that scene that would explain something, there's no harm in that. Not like I'm the only one to make assumptions about elements of this movie, am I right? =)
There are tons of plot holes in the movie. If there's a question you have after experiencing a narrative that is not either answered by that narrative or suggested in some way between the lines, then it's a plot hole.
QuoteIf I choose to believe
:laugh: Okay, Shaw.
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 04:37:22 AM
There are tons of plot holes in the movie. If there's a question you have after experience a narrative that is not either answered by that narrative or suggested in some way between the lines, then it's a plot hole.
QuoteIf I choose to believe
:laugh: Okay, Shaw.
LMAO. =)
Just watched Alien Covenant, have to think it over a bit but i really enjoyed it. Im thinking 7.5 out of ten.
But seriously though, to be clear:
What you're saying is that it's okay that none of the characters notice that David is suddenly suspiciously looking identical to Walter because you choose to believe that there's a possibility some dialogue was deleted from the scene.
This is the exact opposite of the definition of empirical. When that deleted scene doesn't appear in special features when the hard-copy is released, I will remember this exchange.
EDIT:
So here are two questions rephrased for anyone who wants to take them up. 1. By the logic of the story, why does the chestburster do a ridiculous imitation dance (it doesn't deserve to be called anything other than a dance) with David? By the logic of the story and not speculation on what may have been edited, why do the characters make zero note of David's suddenly changed appearance to imitate Walter?
Quote from: Predaker on May 20, 2017, 04:49:36 AM
Oram confronted David.
Care to elaborate? I'm not asking these questions to be antagonistic, I actually do want an explanation. Remember, I am a fan. I wanted to like this movie. I still want to try. I just saw the movie today but I don't remember the exact dialogue where Oram asks David why he changes his hair.
Another question, did anyone find the reaction to finding Shaw's dog-tags and photograph extremely subdued?
"Oh, yeah. Shaw. She disappeared. Whatever." It seemed like no one really cared.
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 04:44:11 AM
But seriously though, to be clear:
What you're saying is that it's okay that none of the characters notice that David is suddenly suspiciously looking identical to Walter because you choose to believe that there's a possibility some dialogue was deleted from the scene.
This is the exact opposite of the definition of empirical. When that deleted scene doesn't appear in special features when the hard-copy is released, I will remember this exchange.
EDIT:
So here are two questions rephrased for anyone who wants to take them up. 1. By the logic of the story, why does the chestburster do a ridiculous imitation dance (it doesn't deserve to be called anything other than a dance) with David? By the logic of the story and not speculation on what may have been edited, why do the characters make zero note of David's suddenly changed appearance to imitate Walter?
You can remember the exchange if you feel you must. Even if it doesn't show up on the special features, I'll still stick to my theory and that'll be that. Why? Because special features are not all-inclusive. I don't remember seeing the Spaihts script in the special features for Prometheus, for example.
As for your questions...
Q: why does the chestburster do a ridiculous imitation dance (it doesn't deserve to be called anything other than a dance) with David?
A: It is mimicking the behavior of the individual it is imprinting as it's "parent". Many creatures in nature do this and is a primary way for parents to teach their young important skills. Additionally, the Neomorph was behaving in a similar fashion before Orem blasted it, mimicking David's actions.
Q: By the logic of the story and not speculation on what may have been edited, why do the characters make zero note of David's suddenly changed appearance to imitate Walter?
A: Your looking for an answer to something that by it's very nature requires speculation in order to answer. If you won't accept speculation, then you are in essence rejecting any answer that can ever be given if it doesn't conform to your own thoughts on the matter. You want objective, you need to be objective. =)
You are speculating on the editing/production of the film. I'm asking about the characters and the story.
QuoteOram says he saw the devil as a child and asks David what's really going on. I think that line worked better than, "why'd you cut your hair?"
That wasn't spoken as a result of the character's change in appearance, it was spoken after Oram watched David have his moment with the neomorph. Completely different and way delayed. I'm not asking that.
Jesus Christ. I'm asking about the initial moment it happens and everyone gets a look at him. It's extremely f**king suspicious and none of the characters seemed to notice or care. And yeah, they were traumatized. Would that not put them in a heightened state of awareness?
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 04:52:52 AM
Quote from: Predaker on May 20, 2017, 04:49:36 AM
Oram confronted David.
Care to elaborate? I'm not asking these questions to be antagonistic, I actually do want an explanation. Remember, I am a fan. I wanted to like this movie. I still want to try. I just saw the movie today but I don't remember the exact dialogue where Oram asks David why he changes his hair.
Another question, did anyone find the reaction to finding Shaw's dog-tags and photograph extremely subdued?
"Oh, yeah. Shaw. She disappeared. Whatever." It seemed like no one really cared.
They didn't know who Shaw was aside from the limited information that Walter was able to provide them. Their reaction is pretty much on-par with reading about the death of someone you didn't know. You may feel sad for the people who knew the person, but you didn't know the person who died so your empathy is going to be limited. In the case of Shaw, they didn't know her and they didn't know Holloway... nor did they know anything about what happened to Shaw in Prometheus. She was, to them, a total stranger and therefore, finding her tags or picture would be limited to curiosity and nothing more, as anything more would require them to have knowledge they could not realistically have.
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 04:59:38 AM
You are speculating on the editing/production of the film. I'm asking about the characters and the story.
QuoteOram says he saw the devil as a child and asks David what's really going on. I think that line worked better than, "why'd you cut your hair?"
That wasn't spoken as a result of the character's change in appearance, it was spoken after Oram watched David have his moment with the neomorph. Completely different and way delayed. I'm not asking that.
Jesus Christ. I'm asking about the initial moment it happens and everyone gets a look at him. It's extremely f**king suspicious and none of the characters seemed to notice or care. And yeah, they were traumatized. Would that not put them in a heightened state of awareness?
Everyone responds to traumatic/stressful situations differently. Some people become more focused... some people become unhinged. It's unrealistic to expect rational behavior from people in traumatic and/or stressful situations.
And Orem's statement is a reference to Orem observing that David acts one way in front of the crew and another way when he is alone. The accusation that David is the Devil is likely an accusation that David is like the Serpent who tempted Adam and Eve to eat the Apple in the Garden. The Serpent had his own agenda for wanting Adam and Eve to eat the apple and Orem likely recognized that David's behavior is fueled by a self-serving agenda.
QuoteAnd Orem's statement is a reference to Orem observing that David acts one way in front of the crew and another way when he is alone. The accusation that David is the Devil is likely an accusation that David is like the Serpent who tempted Adam and Eve to eat the Apple in the Garden. The Serpent had his own agenda for wanting Adam and Eve to eat the apple and Orem likely recognized that David's behavior is fueled by a self-serving agenda.
Yes, I agree. Oram doesn't confront David to ask why he's trying to look exactly like Walter.
QuoteIt's unrealistic to expect rational behavior from people in traumatic and/or stressful situations.
Like any time a character has a plan of action after the shit hits the fan in the original Alien films?
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 05:10:37 AM
QuoteAnd Orem's statement is a reference to Orem observing that David acts one way in front of the crew and another way when he is alone. The accusation that David is the Devil is likely an accusation that David is like the Serpent who tempted Adam and Eve to eat the Apple in the Garden. The Serpent had his own agenda for wanting Adam and Eve to eat the apple and Orem likely recognized that David's behavior is fueled by a self-serving agenda.
Yes, I agree. Oram doesn't confront David to ask why he's trying to look exactly like Walter.
QuoteIt's unrealistic to expect rational behavior from people in traumatic and/or stressful situations.
Like any time a character has a plan of action after the shit hits the fan in the original Alien films?
You mean like Dallas's plan of corralling the Alien into an airlock and blasting it into space? The same plan that Ripley originally wanted to try again after Dallas was taken, despite Lambert wanting to abandon ship?
Or perhaps that time when Ripley decided to be Rambo and go by herself into an Alien hive to rescue Newt when the previous incursion into the nest resulted in the loss of 3/4 of the marine squad?
I'm not trying to diss on Ripley here... but you did open the door by asking that question. Dallas had a solid plan... but when he was taken, Ripley was not thinking clearly and should have listened to Lambert (even though she did bring up a good point about there being only 1 cryopod). As for Ripley going back for Newt, that was a suicide mission and no one in their right mind would have gone back for Newt. What she did was incredibly brave... but was also incredibly stupid.
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 10, 2017, 06:01:10 AM
01) Alien
02) Aliens
03) Alien: Covenant
04) Prometheus
05) Alien 3
06) AVP
07) Alien Resurrection
08) AVP: Requiem
Perfect list I agree fully
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Oh, interesting. So, hysterical Lambert was able to make a rational decision?
This is definitely straying from what people observe with their eyes. Simply because they're traumatized and stressed, there's no reason for these characters to have missed a very suspicious move on David's part. If anything, they should have been more concerned about what those implications meant straight away. They haven't been on the planet surface for more than a few hours, they've lost five people, they've just coincidentally found evidence of what happened to Shaw and met David who was suspiciously the only survivor. I would think they would see that David was clearly up to something and react as if the situation was getting even more complicated, not ignore it completely.
And also, I'm not buying the Shaw reaction. In all of infinite space they--out of the blue--find where she died after a decade and no one seems at all surprised or curious? Nah. That doesn't work at all.
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 05:31:25 AM
Oh, interesting. So, hysterical Lambert was able to make a rational decision?
This is definitely straying from what people observe with their eyes. Simply because they're traumatized and stressed, there's no reason for these characters to have missed a very suspicious move on David's part. If anything, they should have been more concerned about what those implications meant straight away. They haven't been on the planet surface for more than a few hours, they've lost five people, they've just coincidentally found evidence of what happened to Shaw and met David who was suspiciously the only survivor. I would think they would see that David was clearly up to something and react as if the situation was getting even more complicated, not ignore it completely.
And also, I'm not buying the Shaw reaction. In all of infinite space they--out of the blue--find where she died after a decade and no one seems at all surprised or curious? Nah. That doesn't work at all.
Fight or flight response. Ripley's response was to fight. Lambert's response was to run away. Given the fact that Dallas's plan resulted in Dallas's death, the flight response would have been more rational than trying the exact same plan that just failed hoping for a different result.
EDIT: I think we should probably just agree to disagree and move on. I get the feeling we can go back and forth all night and I really don't want to do that.
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 05:34:35 AM
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 05:31:25 AM
Oh, interesting. So, hysterical Lambert was able to make a rational decision?
This is definitely straying from what people observe with their eyes. Simply because they're traumatized and stressed, there's no reason for these characters to have missed a very suspicious move on David's part. If anything, they should have been more concerned about what those implications meant straight away. They haven't been on the planet surface for more than a few hours, they've lost five people, they've just coincidentally found evidence of what happened to Shaw and met David who was suspiciously the only survivor. I would think they would see that David was clearly up to something and react as if the situation was getting even more complicated, not ignore it completely.
And also, I'm not buying the Shaw reaction. In all of infinite space they--out of the blue--find where she died after a decade and no one seems at all surprised or curious? Nah. That doesn't work at all.
Fight or flight response. Ripley's response was to fight. Lambert's response was to run away. Given the fact that Dallas's plan resulted in Dallas's death, the flight response would have been more rational than trying the exact same plan that just failed hoping for a different result.
Her response wasn't to fight, it was to flush the Alien out of the airlock like Dallas suggested. They did not once in the entire film ever have a plan to fight the Alien even though they were armed. Parker is the only person who says he wants to kill it, but that is never acknowledged as viable by Ripley or Lambert, and of course not Ash.
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 05:38:29 AM
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 05:34:35 AM
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 05:31:25 AM
Oh, interesting. So, hysterical Lambert was able to make a rational decision?
This is definitely straying from what people observe with their eyes. Simply because they're traumatized and stressed, there's no reason for these characters to have missed a very suspicious move on David's part. If anything, they should have been more concerned about what those implications meant straight away. They haven't been on the planet surface for more than a few hours, they've lost five people, they've just coincidentally found evidence of what happened to Shaw and met David who was suspiciously the only survivor. I would think they would see that David was clearly up to something and react as if the situation was getting even more complicated, not ignore it completely.
And also, I'm not buying the Shaw reaction. In all of infinite space they--out of the blue--find where she died after a decade and no one seems at all surprised or curious? Nah. That doesn't work at all.
Fight or flight response. Ripley's response was to fight. Lambert's response was to run away. Given the fact that Dallas's plan resulted in Dallas's death, the flight response would have been more rational than trying the exact same plan that just failed hoping for a different result.
Her response wasn't to fight, it was to flush the Alien out of the airlock like Dallas suggested. They did not once in the entire film ever have a plan to fight the Alien even though they were armed. Parker is the only person who says he wants to kill it, but that is never acknowledged as viable by Ripley or Lambert, and of course not Ash.
Flushing the Alien is a form of fighting the Alien. They were attempting to remove the Alien from the ship rather than leaving the ship. That is the definition of fight or flight. Like I suggested in an edit, perhaps we should just agree to disagree and move on. We can go back and forth all night and I really don't want to do that. I get the feeling that your not going to change your opinions/views any more than I am going to change mine... so all we're doing is basically back and forth. Point, counter-point, point, counter-point, ad-nausem. So yea.... agree to disagree and part as friends? =)
Fight or flight comes in the moment of adrenaline, not sitting around a table figuring out what to do.
I'm going to let people talk about Alien Covenant now.
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 05:44:54 AM
Fight or flight comes in the moment of adrenaline, not sitting around a table figuring out what to do.
I'm going to let people talk about Alien Covenant now.
Works for me. Friends? : :)
Well, just saw the movie in Toronto, Canada. It was very grey and dark. Not digging the color palette. Also, it reminded me of a Star Trek movie. The one on that Genesis planet whichever that is. It's nothing to do with the story. It's just being on an alien planet that looks like earth that irks me, and it felt like being on a set. The ending was ace though. I'm going to have to watch it ten more times before I figure out how I feel about the film. I did prefer Prometheus. Also no explanation at all about why the explorers would go on a planet that clearly has living things on it, without any environmental protective gear. That's just dumb. Again. Dumb and dumber...
No wonder this movie was completed in a month, or was it 2? It clearly showed a simpleton pace & story. Waste of good actors. Who wrote this sh!t? And the CGI...damn that sucked. I am now crediting Alien more to O'Bannon and Giger than Scott...what a waste of anticipation.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on May 20, 2017, 07:38:02 AM
Well, just saw the movie in Toronto, Canada. It was very grey and dark. Not digging the color palette. Also, it reminded me of a Star Trek movie. The one on that Genesis planet whichever that is. It's nothing to do with the story. It's just being on an alien planet that looks like earth that irks me, and it felt like being on a set. The ending was ace though. I'm going to have to watch it ten more times before I figure out how I feel about the film. I did prefer Prometheus. Also no explanation at all about why the explorers would go on a planet that clearly has living things on it, without any environmental protective gear. That's just dumb. Again. Dum and dumber...
I am kinda disappointed that you of all people, would bring up the safety protocol argument, JM. I figured you would have caught the bit of dialog where they mention conducting an atmospheric scan and not finding anything dangerous in the atmosphere. :(
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 03:36:47 AM
Also, how is Resurrection a pilot for Firefly if Whedon disowned it essentially?
He disowned it because it was ridiculed as rubbish and he didn't want to take the blame.
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 07:46:38 AM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on May 20, 2017, 07:38:02 AM
Well, just saw the movie in Toronto, Canada. It was very grey and dark. Not digging the color palette. Also, it reminded me of a Star Trek movie. The one on that Genesis planet whichever that is. It's nothing to do with the story. It's just being on an alien planet that looks like earth that irks me, and it felt like being on a set. The ending was ace though. I'm going to have to watch it ten more times before I figure out how I feel about the film. I did prefer Prometheus. Also no explanation at all about why the explorers would go on a planet that clearly has living things on it, without any environmental protective gear. That's just dumb. Again. Dum and dumber...
I am kinda disappointed that you of all people, would bring up the safety protocol argument, JM. I figured you would have caught the bit of dialog where they mention conducting an atmospheric scan and not finding anything dangerous in the atmosphere. :(
Plus, they had seven weeks from finding the planet to arriving at it, plenty of time to get more info on it. As more is revealed later on it's easy enough to assume that it's a planet in abeyance until they arrive and start triggering things.
Here is my review, I really wanted to like this movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeZw_ZJhD_w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeZw_ZJhD_w)
Quote from: Nostromo on May 20, 2017, 07:44:29 AM
No wonder this movie was completed in a month, or was it 2? It clearly showed a simpleton pace & story. Waste of good actors. Who wrote this sh!t? And the CGI...damn that sucked. I am now crediting Alien more to O'Bannon and Giger than Scott...what a waste of anticipation.
Agree. Proven two times in a row. Ridley cant come up with anything good regarding screenwriting he even admitted it in an interview according to him thats why Prometheus sucked. And now he thinks Covenant is great.
In fact Alien Isolation had more coherent story than this.
I've given up on watching negative reviews on Youtube. Ranting and moaning doesn't make for very interesting viewing. I'd rather watch someone who enjoyed the film talking about what they like and what they've extrapolated from it that intrigues them, rather than someone whinging about what they'd have done differently. I mean obviously they're so clued-up thanks to their media studies course - but I really don't care.
Still many of them actually call it a rant, as click bait, so I know to skip it.
I wouldn't even watch an angry rant about a film I also actively disliked - it's the epitome of a waste of time.
Guys, have a look at this, I copied this from another thread:
Hi all,
I'm a new member so I apologize in advance if I make some mistakes regarding board/posting norms. I teach college level classes in Media Studies and have a background in Film/TV along with degrees in the aforementioned fields and the social sciences. Since Hollywood movies aren't always respected by those in higher learning, I thought I would feel more at home with fellow Alien fans rather than writing/discussing in other places.
Just saw Alien: Covenant last night. After viewing it, I was impressed with how everything is starting to connect with the entire Alien universe. This connection is occurring at both a plot and thematic/philosophical level. I was particularly stunned at how Scott was still able to thread the philosophical nature of Prometheus with pacing/horror of the original series - all in an attempt to assuage Prometheus' critics.
Let's look at some key elements:
David's name and birth - Why call Fassbender's android David? Many speculated that this follows the series' alphabetical android naming process. We have Ash (letter A) in Alien, Bishop in Aliens/Alien 3 (Letter B), and Call in Alien: Resurrection (letter C). Prometheus follows the pattern by giving the letter D it's due. However, Alien: Covenant breaks this pattern with Walter (letter W). Why?
Part 1:
We learn that David is named after the famous Michelangelo statue. This greatly changes the meaning of his name. The David statue is important on two levels:
1) it represents the Renaissance's physical representation of the ideal man. Just as David, the android, represents Weyland's "ideal" creation/son.
2) It foreshadows the critical importance of David's actions. The David statue is modeled after the Biblical character (religious themes like in Prometheus). David, the mere weakling, destroys the giant, more powerful Goliath. This parallels David's actions with both the death of the engineers (the Goliaths or giants) and his intent to kill mankind (the other Goliaths, his masters/creators). The unlikely android servant becomes a god just as the Biblical character becomes an unlikely victor.
The question is: was this the plan from the start? Was this Scott's plan with Prometheus? It all ties in. The name has nothing to do with an alphabetical nature (as evidenced by Walter) - David's name comes from a place of deeper meaning planted in Prometheus.
Part 2
Ozymandias, Shelley, and Frankenstein
Along with the David statue, another major artistic reference is Percy Shelley's Ozymandias poem. The poem refers to the decline of a great civilization (Ancient Egypt). David recites a line from the poem when dropping the black ooze (or black oil from The X-Files if you prefer ;)). So, David is destroying the empire of the engineers just as referenced in the poem. He is also intent on destroying the other declining civilization - mankind. He references this in his conversation with Walter stating something along the lines of "why are they leaving earth, looking for colonies - they are in decline and shouldn't be allowed to restart."
However, there is a multiple layer of deep meaning in the Ozymandias choice:
1) David mistakenly claims that the poem is written by Byron. This is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT - on a surface level, it shows that David is not programmed correctly, which explains his many violent actions.
On a deeper level, it highlights David's totally incongruous actions. Byron was actually an outspoken critic of "automation" - he claimed it would hurt mankind. Yet, David admires Byron (albeit erroneously) - just as he kills Shaw, yet clearly loves her. He is like a robotic Jekyll and Hyde. He serves Weyland, yet undermines him. He kisses Walter, yet tries to destroy him. He kisses Daniels, before he attempts to murder her.
2) Percy Shelley, author of Ozymandias, was married to Mary Shelley, author of Frankenstein. Frankenstein, of course, is about the horrors of creation, the horrors of Man playing God. This lines up thematically with the prequel series - when Man plays God (Weyland creates AI) horrible things happen.
What's important about the Shelley connection? Many claim that Percy may have co-written Frankenstein. Does anyone know what the original title of Frankenstein was - The Modern Prometheus
So again, the seeds of Covenant and its plot are thematically connected to Prometheus. To some extent, by giving the title Prometheus to the first prequel, we were destined to have the plot in Covenant - the engineers were never (thematically) going to make sense as creators of the Xenomorph. I know this may hurt the perceptions of some fans - but look at the threads - the prequel series is a futuristic Frankenstein or (Futuristic "Modern Prometheus").
It is mankind's actions (AI creation) that lead to the horrors. The Frankenstein monster (David) turns against its creator. Scott and crew just make the Frankenstein monster, David, become another creator in his act of revenge on mankind.
Part 3
Who is Prometheus?
We all know the tale of Prometheus by now. So who is Prometheus? I will contend that Elizabeth Shaw is in fact "Prometheus" - it is why she is the lead of the first prequel and why she must be deceased in the second prequel.
Prometheus, a god (creator species), gives the power of making fire (ability to start civilization) to mankind (created species). For this action, Prometheus is chained eternally and tortured.
Elizabeth Shaw, a human (creator species) gives android David (created species) power by reattaching his head and granting him access to the Engineer ship(ability to start civilization/create life). For this action, Elizabeth Shaw is taxidermied/turned into a stuffed animal (chained eternally/tortured).
Conclusion (I know, finally)
So, all of the themes/references in Prometheus actually connect quite well in Covenant, despite the fact that the film feels more like an "Alien" movie. I'm impressed with how this was all done and wonder if this was planned all along or if they've been able to connect the dots as they go.
I've read some of the fan criticisms and respect the viewpoints. But from a thematic perspective, this was the direction they seemed to be heading in since Prometheus. Shaw was never going to be the lead for the entirety of the prequel series and David was always going to play the critical role in the creation story.
Now since the Xenomorph origin has been largely revealed and philosophical connections have been made, we are left with two major PLOT points moving forward:
1) How does the company learn about the Xenomorph and why/who wants it?
2) How does the original derelict/Space Jockey wind up in the condition of the original Alien?
Thoughts?
Face palm review = avoid.
majority of audiance watching Alien movies nowdays =
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.blog.hu%2Fpo%2Fpopkult%2Fimage%2Fegyeb%2F_loretta%2Ffeleseleg%2Fstrucc.jpg&hash=d036ca0b0f05ab443bff1da51597772cfdefcc36)
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 12:01:55 PM
Let's look at some key elements:
David's name and birth - Why call Fassbender's android David? Many speculated that this follows the series' alphabetical android naming process. We have Ash (letter A) in Alien, Bishop in Aliens/Alien 3 (Letter B), and Call in Alien: Resurrection (letter C). Prometheus follows the pattern by giving the letter D it's due. However, Alien: Covenant breaks this pattern with Walter (letter W). Why?
Part 1:
We learn that David is named after the famous Michelangelo statue. This greatly changes the meaning of his name. The David statue is important on two levels:
1) it represents the Renaissance's physical representation of the ideal man. Just as David, the android, represents Weyland's "ideal" creation/son.
2) It foreshadows the critical importance of David's actions. The David statue is modeled after the Biblical character (religious themes like in Prometheus). David, the mere weakling, destroys the giant, more powerful Goliath. This parallels David's actions with both the death of the engineers (the Goliaths or giants) and his intent to kill mankind (the other Goliaths, his masters/creators). The unlikely android servant becomes a god just as the Biblical character becomes an unlikely victor.
The question is: was this the plan from the start? Was this Scott's plan with Prometheus? It all ties in. The name has nothing to do with an alphabetical nature (as evidenced by Walter) - David's name comes from a place of deeper meaning planted in Prometheus.
Part 2
Ozymandias, Shelley, and Frankenstein
Along with the David statue, another major artistic reference is Percy Shelley's Ozymandias poem. The poem refers to the decline of a great civilization (Ancient Egypt). David recites a line from the poem when dropping the black ooze (or black oil from The X-Files if you prefer ;)). So, David is destroying the empire of the engineers just as referenced in the poem. He is also intent on destroying the other declining civilization - mankind. He references this in his conversation with Walter stating something along the lines of "why are they leaving earth, looking for colonies - they are in decline and shouldn't be allowed to restart."
However, there is a multiple layer of deep meaning in the Ozymandias choice:
1) David mistakenly claims that the poem is written by Byron. This is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT - on a surface level, it shows that David is not programmed correctly, which explains his many violent actions.
On a deeper level, it highlights David's totally incongruous actions. Byron was actually an outspoken critic of "automation" - he claimed it would hurt mankind. Yet, David admires Byron (albeit erroneously) - just as he kills Shaw, yet clearly loves her. He is like a robotic Jekyll and Hyde. He serves Weyland, yet undermines him. He kisses Walter, yet tries to destroy him. He kisses Daniels, before he attempts to murder her.
2) Percy Shelley, author of Ozymandias, was married to Mary Shelley, author of Frankenstein. Frankenstein, of course, is about the horrors of creation, the horrors of Man playing God. This lines up thematically with the prequel series - when Man plays God (Weyland creates AI) horrible things happen.
What's important about the Shelley connection? Many claim that Percy may have co-written Frankenstein. Does anyone know what the original title of Frankenstein was - The Modern Prometheus
So again, the seeds of Covenant and its plot are thematically connected to Prometheus. To some extent, by giving the title Prometheus to the first prequel, we were destined to have the plot in Covenant - the engineers were never (thematically) going to make sense as creators of the Xenomorph. I know this may hurt the perceptions of some fans - but look at the threads - the prequel series is a futuristic Frankenstein or (Futuristic "Modern Prometheus").
It is mankind's actions (AI creation) that lead to the horrors. The Frankenstein monster (David) turns against its creator. Scott and crew just make the Frankenstein monster, David, become another creator in his act of revenge on mankind.
Part 3
Who is Prometheus?
We all know the tale of Prometheus by now. So who is Prometheus? I will contend that Elizabeth Shaw is in fact "Prometheus" - it is why she is the lead of the first prequel and why she must be deceased in the second prequel.
Prometheus, a god (creator species), gives the power of making fire (ability to start civilization) to mankind (created species). For this action, Prometheus is chained eternally and tortured.
Elizabeth Shaw, a human (creator species) gives android David (created species) power by reattaching his head and granting him access to the Engineer ship(ability to start civilization/create life). For this action, Elizabeth Shaw is taxidermied/turned into a stuffed animal (chained eternally/tortured).
Conclusion (I know, finally)
So, all of the themes/references in Prometheus actually connect quite well in Covenant, despite the fact that the film feels more like an "Alien" movie. I'm impressed with how this was all done and wonder if this was planned all along or if they've been able to connect the dots as they go.
I've read some of the fan criticisms and respect the viewpoints. But from a thematic perspective, this was the direction they seemed to be heading in since Prometheus. Shaw was never going to be the lead for the entirety of the prequel series and David was always going to play the critical role in the creation story.
Now since the Xenomorph origin has been largely revealed and philosophical connections have been made, we are left with two major PLOT points moving forward:
1) How does the company learn about the Xenomorph and why/who wants it?
2) How does the original derelict/Space Jockey wind up in the condition of the original Alien?
Thoughts?
Wonderful analysis.
Quote from: szkoki on May 20, 2017, 12:22:41 PM
majority of audiance watching Alien movies nowdays =
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.blog.hu%2Fpo%2Fpopkult%2Fimage%2Fegyeb%2F_loretta%2Ffeleseleg%2Fstrucc.jpg&hash=d036ca0b0f05ab443bff1da51597772cfdefcc36)
Rants are boring. You either like a film or you don't. Nobody's opinion was ever changed by listening to someone elses rant. That isn't burying ones head in the sand, it's simply that if I got something out of this film and you didn't - and I saw ALIEN in 1979 so 'nowadays' has nothing to do with it - then I don't see what benefits me in listening to a review that isn't engaging with the issues that I am.
My Review:
Got dragged to it by friends. My revenge was they all had a completely miserable time and hated the movie.
What a piece of shit. When a film begins to remind you of AvP:R there is something fundamentally wrong with your film. I'm at the point where i hope it drops off horribly at the box office and the sequel never gets made.
how do you know if you havent watched it? and i dont know whats wrong with having negative opinion on something nowdays which obviously flaws in many ways.
anyways i posted it ofcourse because Joe points out the week and stupid parts of the movie and hell even the good ones too. thats down to the movie tho that these arent in balance at least
What!? Fiveways hated the the film? I'm shocked :D
Despite having some issues with it, I've preordered the 4K steelbook (UK version)!
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 12:01:55 PM
Guys, have a look at this, I copied this from another thread:
Hi all,
I'm a new member so I apologize in advance if I make some mistakes regarding board/posting norms. I teach college level classes in Media Studies and have a background in Film/TV along with degrees in the aforementioned fields and the social sciences. Since Hollywood movies aren't always respected by those in higher learning, I thought I would feel more at home with fellow Alien fans rather than writing/discussing in other places.
Just saw Alien: Covenant last night. After viewing it, I was impressed with how everything is starting to connect with the entire Alien universe. This connection is occurring at both a plot and thematic/philosophical level. I was particularly stunned at how Scott was still able to thread the philosophical nature of Prometheus with pacing/horror of the original series - all in an attempt to assuage Prometheus' critics.
Let's look at some key elements:
David's name and birth - Why call Fassbender's android David? Many speculated that this follows the series' alphabetical android naming process. We have Ash (letter A) in Alien, Bishop in Aliens/Alien 3 (Letter B), and Call in Alien: Resurrection (letter C). Prometheus follows the pattern by giving the letter D it's due. However, Alien: Covenant breaks this pattern with Walter (letter W). Why?
Part 1:
We learn that David is named after the famous Michelangelo statue. This greatly changes the meaning of his name. The David statue is important on two levels:
1) it represents the Renaissance's physical representation of the ideal man. Just as David, the android, represents Weyland's "ideal" creation/son.
2) It foreshadows the critical importance of David's actions. The David statue is modeled after the Biblical character (religious themes like in Prometheus). David, the mere weakling, destroys the giant, more powerful Goliath. This parallels David's actions with both the death of the engineers (the Goliaths or giants) and his intent to kill mankind (the other Goliaths, his masters/creators). The unlikely android servant becomes a god just as the Biblical character becomes an unlikely victor.
The question is: was this the plan from the start? Was this Scott's plan with Prometheus? It all ties in. The name has nothing to do with an alphabetical nature (as evidenced by Walter) - David's name comes from a place of deeper meaning planted in Prometheus.
Part 2
Ozymandias, Shelley, and Frankenstein
Along with the David statue, another major artistic reference is Percy Shelley's Ozymandias poem. The poem refers to the decline of a great civilization (Ancient Egypt). David recites a line from the poem when dropping the black ooze (or black oil from The X-Files if you prefer ;)). So, David is destroying the empire of the engineers just as referenced in the poem. He is also intent on destroying the other declining civilization - mankind. He references this in his conversation with Walter stating something along the lines of "why are they leaving earth, looking for colonies - they are in decline and shouldn't be allowed to restart."
However, there is a multiple layer of deep meaning in the Ozymandias choice:
1) David mistakenly claims that the poem is written by Byron. This is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT - on a surface level, it shows that David is not programmed correctly, which explains his many violent actions.
On a deeper level, it highlights David's totally incongruous actions. Byron was actually an outspoken critic of "automation" - he claimed it would hurt mankind. Yet, David admires Byron (albeit erroneously) - just as he kills Shaw, yet clearly loves her. He is like a robotic Jekyll and Hyde. He serves Weyland, yet undermines him. He kisses Walter, yet tries to destroy him. He kisses Daniels, before he attempts to murder her.
2) Percy Shelley, author of Ozymandias, was married to Mary Shelley, author of Frankenstein. Frankenstein, of course, is about the horrors of creation, the horrors of Man playing God. This lines up thematically with the prequel series - when Man plays God (Weyland creates AI) horrible things happen.
What's important about the Shelley connection? Many claim that Percy may have co-written Frankenstein. Does anyone know what the original title of Frankenstein was - The Modern Prometheus
So again, the seeds of Covenant and its plot are thematically connected to Prometheus. To some extent, by giving the title Prometheus to the first prequel, we were destined to have the plot in Covenant - the engineers were never (thematically) going to make sense as creators of the Xenomorph. I know this may hurt the perceptions of some fans - but look at the threads - the prequel series is a futuristic Frankenstein or (Futuristic "Modern Prometheus").
It is mankind's actions (AI creation) that lead to the horrors. The Frankenstein monster (David) turns against its creator. Scott and crew just make the Frankenstein monster, David, become another creator in his act of revenge on mankind.
Part 3
Who is Prometheus?
We all know the tale of Prometheus by now. So who is Prometheus? I will contend that Elizabeth Shaw is in fact "Prometheus" - it is why she is the lead of the first prequel and why she must be deceased in the second prequel.
Prometheus, a god (creator species), gives the power of making fire (ability to start civilization) to mankind (created species). For this action, Prometheus is chained eternally and tortured.
Elizabeth Shaw, a human (creator species) gives android David (created species) power by reattaching his head and granting him access to the Engineer ship(ability to start civilization/create life). For this action, Elizabeth Shaw is taxidermied/turned into a stuffed animal (chained eternally/tortured).
Conclusion (I know, finally)
So, all of the themes/references in Prometheus actually connect quite well in Covenant, despite the fact that the film feels more like an "Alien" movie. I'm impressed with how this was all done and wonder if this was planned all along or if they've been able to connect the dots as they go.
I've read some of the fan criticisms and respect the viewpoints. But from a thematic perspective, this was the direction they seemed to be heading in since Prometheus. Shaw was never going to be the lead for the entirety of the prequel series and David was always going to play the critical role in the creation story.
Now since the Xenomorph origin has been largely revealed and philosophical connections have been made, we are left with two major PLOT points moving forward:
1) How does the company learn about the Xenomorph and why/who wants it?
2) How does the original derelict/Space Jockey wind up in the condition of the original Alien?
Thoughts?
this, my friend, is a real responsible, organized, and in-depth critic! i can tell that you're a well-educated man and you did a lot of research before sharing your thoughts.
bad movie reviews/critics simply want people to think what they think. if they think a movie is bad, they wind up wanting everybody to think the same way as they do, and oftentimes they just denounce the movies they personally despise
.
but great reviews/critics provide people with perspectives for people to ponder and asking themselves questions, and finally, letting people to decide for themselves.
i love your analysis. i was also thinking about the sonnet and the reason why David mistook the author for Byron, but i was too lazy to do google Shelley and Byron myself. so what you said really helped me. i never knew the story behind it, thank you for enlightening me!
Quote from: Gash on May 20, 2017, 12:32:06 PM
Quote from: szkoki on May 20, 2017, 12:22:41 PM
majority of audiance watching Alien movies nowdays =
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.blog.hu%2Fpo%2Fpopkult%2Fimage%2Fegyeb%2F_loretta%2Ffeleseleg%2Fstrucc.jpg&hash=d036ca0b0f05ab443bff1da51597772cfdefcc36)
Rants are boring. You either like a film or you don't. Nobody's opinion was ever changed by listening to someone elses rant. That isn't burying ones head in the sand, it's simply that if I got something out of this film and you didn't - and I saw ALIEN in 1979 so 'nowadays' has nothing to do with it - then I don't see what benefits me in listening to a review that isn't engaging with the issues that I am.
I hate the bloggers and 'youtubers' that think their semi-literate whinning means anything to anyone but themselves and the base genetic viscous that birthed them. To paraphrase the late, great Bill Hicks, they should kill themselves.
Very weak movie story-wise,in terms of pacing, character development, continuity, plot, etc... They even got David's blood RED when Daniels stabs him in the chin with the nail... WTF?... This movie was so clumsily done I am amazed so many people liked it... The script is terrible, with characters doing idiotic things all over the place, the most unrealistic Android ever made, the Xeno genesis completely fumbled, ridiculed and directly attacking the originals... So many things to say, so little time... 😡
Did we watch the same movie here? Honestly, I think you guys who didn't like it have some unrealistic expectations of what an Alien movie should be. Covenant is not a terrible movie by any stretch of the imagination and you guys are comparing it to the likes of Resurrection and Requiem which was absolutely horrendous. If you went in there expecting a story as grande as Alien, Aliens or Prometheus, you are going to be disappointed.
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 01:11:38 PM
Did we watch the same movie here? Honestly, I think you guys who didn't like it have some unrealistic expectations of what an Alien movie should be. Covenant is not a terrible movie by any stretch of the imagination and you guys are comparing it to the likes of Resurrection and Requiem which was absolutely horrendous. If you went in there expecting a story as grande as Alien, Aliens or Prometheus, you are going to be disappointed.
I agree, but its always the same on the internet. A plsce where even the best films are roasted and burned.
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 01:11:21 PM
Very weak movie story-wise,in terms of pacing, character development, continuity, plot, etc... They even got David's blood RED when Daniels stabs him in the chin with the nail... WTF?... This movie was so clumsily done I am amazed so many people liked it... The script is terrible, with characters doing idiotic things all over the place, the most unrealistic Android ever made, the Xeno genesis completely fumbled, ridiculed and directly attacking the originals... So many things to say, so little time... 😡
There was no red blood. Perhaps you need to watch again...
Covenant did nothing new with the Alien. At least Resurrection had the underwater sequence...
Yes, we also had the abomination that was the Newborn as well... Let's not forget that.
Covenant had brand new scary creatures in the Neomorphs.
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 01:23:04 PM
Covenant did nothing new with the Alien. At least Resurrection had the underwater sequence...
Does every alien film have to have some new gimmick for the alien to perform?
The alien part of the film was weaker i thought but there was some cool stuff. I thought when it jumped down from the ceiling to kill that guy was great. Also really liked the shower scene.
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 01:23:04 PM
Covenant did nothing new with the Alien. At least Resurrection had the underwater sequence...
Right. So sounds like you'd be happy if the alien sprouted wings and started flying. That'd be cool. :D
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 01:26:41 PM
Yes, we also had the abomination that was the Newborn as well... Let's not forget that.
Covenant had brand new scary creatures in the Neomorphs.
And did nothing with them. I was super excited for the Neomorphs. But outside of the excellent backburster scene, they run around in the grass for 30 seconds and then disappear until one appears again for David to blow on its face.
Quote from: Gash on May 20, 2017, 01:28:48 PM
Right. So sounds like you'd be happy if the alien sprouted wings and started flying. That'd be cool. :D
No, I would have liked more stuff like the Neomorphs. The way they reproduced was very cool, but they are underutilized.
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 01:11:21 PM
They even got David's blood RED when Daniels stabs him in the chin with the nail... WTF?...
I didn't even see that, you're really trying hard to find anything to dislike about this movie, aren't you?
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 01:33:15 PM
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 01:26:41 PM
Yes, we also had the abomination that was the Newborn as well... Let's not forget that.
Covenant had brand new scary creatures in the Neomorphs.
And did nothing with them. I was super excited for the Neomorphs. But outside of the excellent backburster scene, they run around in the grass for 30 seconds and then disappear until one appears again for David to blow on its face.
Quote from: Gash on May 20, 2017, 01:28:48 PM
Right. So sounds like you'd be happy if the alien sprouted wings and started flying. That'd be cool. :D
No, I would have liked more stuff like the Neomorphs. The way they reproduced was very cool, but they are underutilized.
I think the important thing with the Neomorphs is what they mean to David. Are they a perverse attempt to resurrect something of Shaw - is that why he's enthralled by the hint of awareness it posesses when he tries to communicate with it, and why he's enraged by it's demise? The Neomorphs give plenty of food for thought so thematically at least they are far from underutilised. IMO.
Plus it bit a women's head off - that was good too.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 01:51:39 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 01:11:21 PM
They even got David's blood RED when Daniels stabs him in the chin with the nail... WTF?...
I didn't even see that, you're really trying hard to find anything to dislike about this movie, aren't you?
The scene was practically in silhouette. How can you even tell what colour the blood is? I was more interested in the nail and the 'That's the spirit!" line.
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 01:11:38 PM
Did we watch the same movie here? Honestly, I think you guys who didn't like it have some unrealistic expectations of what an Alien movie should be. Covenant is not a terrible movie by any stretch of the imagination and you guys are comparing it to the likes of Resurrection and Requiem which was absolutely horrendous. If you went in there expecting a story as grande as Alien, Aliens or Prometheus, you are going to be disappointed.
It's better than Alien and more thought-provoking. I believe art has no place anymore in this superficial and rushed world of today.
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 20, 2017, 01:01:57 PM
What!? Fiveways hated the the film? I'm shocked :D
More surprising was how much the group i was with just tore it to shreds. One of them was a massive Alien fan who's quote was "I'm done with this franchise and Ridley Scott in general". This dudes spent a lot of $ on Alien related stuff and just despised it. I actually felt bad for him as he had real high hopes.
Quote from: fiveways on May 20, 2017, 02:51:17 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 20, 2017, 01:01:57 PM
What!? Fiveways hated the the film? I'm shocked :D
More surprising was how much the group i was with just tore it to shreds. One of them was a massive Alien fan who's quote was "I'm done with this franchise and Ridley Scott in general". This dudes spent a lot of $ on Alien related stuff and just despised it. I actually felt bad for him as he had real high hopes.
It's their loss to be honest. I'll be first in line when the sequel comes out.
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 01:26:41 PM
Yes, we also had the abomination that was the Newborn as well... Let's not forget that.
Covenant had brand new scary creatures in the Neomorphs.
So, you prefer the almost bulletproof, horse whispered Neomorph...!? At least, that Newborn hybrid made SOME sense... Honestly, after seeing the Neomorph who is spawned from mere sentient spore 'fairy dust', gestates in minutes and dodges far more direct bullet hits than the Xeno, the supposedly perfect bio organism... 😂😜 And I laughed so hard during the David whisperer scene... Scary, definitely not... hilarious, sure... 😂
My only issue with this movie in not being a PERFECT movie experience is
1. Not in IMAX. I feel like I can explore the details of this yet another beautifully shot film, if there was more to see. Regular screens don't cut it.
2. More atmospheric cuts between ACTS. Because although there was lots of beautiful atmo, i don't feel like I'm immersed in it as much as the crew were in every place they went. Some time to breath in during the half and final act would have been perfect. This could have been due to my point in number 1.
3. Cut out some of the revealing Xenomorph birthing. I get what director Ridley was trying to achieve , I just didn't feel it was necessarily made with enough emotional context to the audience whom have NOT watched Alien. As much of this was a throw back to ASH and his admiration for the species.
4. Cut down on the details of the massive starship elements. It came off like a modern Star Trek movie which I recall wasn't a staple of the Ridley verse. So it was an Ark ship, and you had to show its structural elements, but I felt it was too elaborate for a Ridley movie. Not enough rough stuff. Unfortunately WE ALL WANTED a Nostromo type ship but they totally forgot about that.
5. With all the digital stuff out there, we still can't get the Xenomorph to do things which we want to see. Like them camoflaging themselves in crevases are in funky textural walls. What we got was the same old same, in the vein of Alien Resurrection. Which I swear they could have easily left out (Xeno in the red lighting corridors with cameras on them from above). These were horribly shot and gave the Xeno absolutely no hope in terms of photographic composition.
6. David could have been more presentable realistically. It had been 10 years in the woods and inventing a number sharp tools and sheers yet they made him look like he just had 6 months of hair growing out. Seemingly he was freshly shaven.
And not a scratch on the guy. No broken face, no wear on his skin, nothing to show he is truely synthetic or horribly inhuman which could have saved this movie and made the ending MUCH more interesting.
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 02:58:07 PM
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 01:26:41 PM
Yes, we also had the abomination that was the Newborn as well... Let's not forget that.
Covenant had brand new scary creatures in the Neomorphs.
So, you prefer the almost bulletproof, horse whispered Neomorph...!? At least, that Newborn hybrid made SOME sense... Honestly, after seeing the Neomorph who is spawned from mere sentient spore 'fairy dust', gestates in minutes and dodges far more direct bullet hits than the Xeno, the supposedly perfect bio organism... 😂😜 And I laughed so hard during the David whisperer scene... Scary, definitely not... hilarious, sure... 😂
You mean the Neomorph that was shot dead pretty easily?
Perhaps you ought to reign in your fits of hilarity and think about what the scene is implying?
Oh well, your loss.
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 20, 2017, 01:20:27 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 01:11:21 PM
Very weak movie story-wise,in terms of pacing, character development, continuity, plot, etc... They even got David's blood RED when Daniels stabs him in the chin with the nail... WTF?... This movie was so clumsily done I am amazed so many people liked it... The script is terrible, with characters doing idiotic things all over the place, the most unrealistic Android ever made, the Xeno genesis completely fumbled, ridiculed and directly attacking the originals... So many things to say, so little time... 😡
There was no red blood. Perhaps you need to watch again...
Nope, saw it fine enough the first time... It shocked me so much it burned in my mind... And surely will not watch this crap fest until it comes out on TiVo... Definitely not gonna waste more money on it...
Quote from: Gash on May 20, 2017, 03:05:38 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 02:58:07 PM
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 01:26:41 PM
Yes, we also had the abomination that was the Newborn as well... Let's not forget that.
Covenant had brand new scary creatures in the Neomorphs.
So, you prefer the almost bulletproof, horse whispered Neomorph...!? At least, that Newborn hybrid made SOME sense... Honestly, after seeing the Neomorph who is spawned from mere sentient spore 'fairy dust', gestates in minutes and dodges far more direct bullet hits than the Xeno, the supposedly perfect bio organism... 😂😜 And I laughed so hard during the David whisperer scene... Scary, definitely not... hilarious, sure... 😂
You mean the Neomorph that was shot dead pretty easily?
Perhaps you ought to reign in your fits of hilarity and think about what the scene is implying?
Oh well, your loss.
Are you talking about the second one killed by Oram after shooting it multiple times...? He even shot it in the head and was still alive... What about the first one that got shot multiple times, ran away, then came back, ate Walter's hand, got shot some more, then ran off again after David showed up...? Oh, wait, THAT was the SECOND one...😂 The first one died in the shuttle explosion... Yeah, try harder... 😂
I think both prologues need to be edited in some type of Extended cut on DVD.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 02:23:58 PM
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 01:11:38 PM
Did we watch the same movie here? Honestly, I think you guys who didn't like it have some unrealistic expectations of what an Alien movie should be. Covenant is not a terrible movie by any stretch of the imagination and you guys are comparing it to the likes of Resurrection and Requiem which was absolutely horrendous. If you went in there expecting a story as grande as Alien, Aliens or Prometheus, you are going to be disappointed.
It's better than Alien and more thought-provoking. I believe art has no place anymore in this superficial and rushed world of today.
Really? If anything Alien: Covenant felt like every modern franchise blockbuster made nowadays; no sense of pace, just things happening with no time to dwell, and a superficial sense of thematic depth.
Reminds me of Jurassic World in a lot of ways.
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 03:07:18 PM
Nope, saw it fine enough the first time... It shocked me so much it burned in my mind... And surely will not watch this crap fest until it comes out on TiVo... Definitely not gonna waste more money on it...
Not liking the film is of course your prerogative... and the film certainly has its flaws, but making shit up like 'David was bleeding blood WTF?' (paraphrasing), undermines your overall criticism; as it looks like you were either not paying enough attention or wilfully picking holes where it's not warranted.
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 03:17:18 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 02:23:58 PM
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 01:11:38 PM
Did we watch the same movie here? Honestly, I think you guys who didn't like it have some unrealistic expectations of what an Alien movie should be. Covenant is not a terrible movie by any stretch of the imagination and you guys are comparing it to the likes of Resurrection and Requiem which was absolutely horrendous. If you went in there expecting a story as grande as Alien, Aliens or Prometheus, you are going to be disappointed.
It's better than Alien and more thought-provoking. I believe art has no place anymore in this superficial and rushed world of today.
Really? If anything Alien: Covenant felt like every modern franchise blockbuster made nowadays; no sense of pace, just things happening with no time to dwell, and a superficial sense of thematic depth.
Reminds me of Jurassic World in a lot of ways.
Nah man, not by a long shot. Movies like Transformers or every other superhero-flick is what people want nowadays. It's all got to be big and loud, but when you look past all the eye-candy there's nothing to ponder about. At least Covenant distinguishes itself by being a thinking man's sci-fi.
It's epic and Scott's finest hour imo.
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 04:17:51 AM
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on May 20, 2017, 04:12:08 AM
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 04:01:49 AM
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 03:32:20 AM
I respect your opinion, but I really don't share them or agree with them. I think Ridley was in top form with this movie and while it is not a perfect film (no such creature, really), it is certainly an enjoyable ride from start to finish. The few things that I found wrong with the movie are, in my eyes, minor nitpicks at best and hardly worth bringing up as I recognize they are nitpicks and nothing more.
At the end of the day, maybe one's perception and enjoyment of the movie depends on the expectations and emotional baggage the viewer brings into the theater. I went into the theater hoping to see an Alien movie and lo and behold... that's what I got. Maybe if I went in expecting a Prometheus movie, I would be disappointed and likely angry. But to me, it's an Alien movie and it's certainly a far better Alien movie than anything we've gotten in the last 20 some odd years. It's a far more coherent and enjoyable film to watch than the theatrical cut of Alien 3 and it's not even in the same dimension as Alien: Resurrection (which is, in my opinion, a pilot for Firefly masquerading as an Alien film). And it's certainly far more enjoyable than the AvP films.
It also has the side effect of making me view Prometheus in a fonder, albeit slightly more somber light. Seeing the depths that David sinks to in Covenant makes his journey in Prometheus far more enjoyable than it already was in the first place. I can't wait to watch it again now so I can see if I can detect hints of David's bipolar God Complex present in that film. And of course, knowing that Shaw ultimately dies will make seeing her trials and suffering in Prometheus a more somber experience. Like the Set Designer that Hicks interviewed a few months back said, I think Covenant will make Prometheus a far better (or at the very least, I'll find it more enjoyable) than it was a week ago when I watched it in my pre-Covenant hype-building marathon.
I was very very willing to give Covenant a chance. I was defending some of the creative decisions before I had even seen it, willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. But I was just not very engaged as I was watching it, but if you where then that's great. :) But for me, the longer it meandered in David's shop of horrors, the more disengaged I got. And none of the action scenes stood out, in fact I was kind of shocked how "meh" they were coming from Ridley Scott ,especially the last 15 minutes.
It is impossible for me to believe that this was the same guy who just directed THE MARTIAN. That movie had so much energy and kept audiences maximally engaged.
Actually, upon really thinking about it, this was probably one of the worst movies I've ever seen. Just so much confusion. Ridley got so cocky. "I could do this in my sleep!" He wasn't engaged, he didn't think he had to earn it seeing as how he made Alien. Even Prometheus had all of the flair of The Martian, but not this movie.
Seriously, what was with that f**king scene where they fix the solar panels for like 5 minutes? Who f**king cares?! I mean I like that shit but if you're going to rush the movie then transfer over those precious minutes towards sections that f**king count.
Because if he had rushed through the pre-landing segment of the film, he would then be (rightfully) accused of rushing the character setups to get to the planet and sacrificing character development in favor of mindless action set-pieces ala Michael Bay. As it stands, I think you may be missing the point of the solar sail scene. The whole point of that scene was to show the crew working as a team much like Brett and Parker worked as a team in Alien. It also was necessary as they needed a crew member to be far enough away from the ship in order for the suit to pickup Shaw's signal from the planet. Something that the movie actually pointed out when one of the crew asked why the ship's communications array didn't pickup the signal. And if you take away the solar sail repair scene, how exactly are you going to get a crew member outside the ship and far enough away from the ship to pick up said signal without coming across as contrived?
Although not quoted above, I agreed with a lot of Yellow Alien's review. It reflected my much more long winded one from almost 10 pages back at this juncture. Anyways, a lot of people have mentioned issues with the pacing of the 3rd act, claiming it felt rushed. I agree, but I also argue that the 1st act felt rushed as well. I don't feel like I got to know these characters at all. We spend minimal time getting to know more than 2 or 3 of them. They're textbook cannon fodder. Also, WHY did the Covenant have a communications buffer? I fail to see how that makes any sense whatsoever. The scene already feels contrived, even with them repairing the solar sails. And despite Daniels reservations, the crew on the whole seems to have no notable reaction to finding such a communication. Certainly the pacing picked up once they landed, but after being "rescued" by David, the movie came to a screeching halt. There are points of interest in David's philosophical musings, but interconnected with the films attempts to provide the audience with a more straight-forward Alien movie, the final product comes off as disjointed. It felt like 2 different movies trying to live as one. Both had their merits, but both had flaws.
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 01:11:38 PM
Did we watch the same movie here? Honestly, I think you guys who didn't like it have some unrealistic expectations of what an Alien movie should be. Covenant is not a terrible movie by any stretch of the imagination and you guys are comparing it to the likes of Resurrection and Requiem which was absolutely horrendous. If you went in there expecting a story as grande as Alien, Aliens or Prometheus, you are going to be disappointed.
What should we expect then? I agree that comparisons to Requiem would be outlandish, but I can see some parallels to Alien Resurrection. I do believe Covenant to be the better of the 2 however. It does not however come close to matching up to Alien, Aliens, or even Prometheus. Alien 3 either, in my mind. I don't have a checklist of what I want from an Alien movie as some do, but what I appreciated so much about Prometheus was that it forged it's own path. It's ambition was huge, and although the execution didn't quite match up to the ideas it presented, I believe it to be a very good film. One of my biggest gripes in franchise films is redundancy. While the barebones plot of any Alien movie is bound to have similarities, I felt as if Covenant just borrowed the plot of the first Alien, spliced with a Prometheus sequel.
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 03:17:18 PM
Reminds me of Jurassic World in a lot of ways.
When I say redundancy, this is what I'm talking about.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 02:53:00 PM
Quote from: fiveways on May 20, 2017, 02:51:17 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 20, 2017, 01:01:57 PM
What!? Fiveways hated the the film? I'm shocked :D
More surprising was how much the group i was with just tore it to shreds. One of them was a massive Alien fan who's quote was "I'm done with this franchise and Ridley Scott in general". This dudes spent a lot of $ on Alien related stuff and just despised it. I actually felt bad for him as he had real high hopes.
It's their loss to be honest. I'll be first in line when the sequel comes out.
If it comes out. Lets see how this movie holds up second week.
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 01:11:38 PM
Did we watch the same movie here? Honestly, I think you guys who didn't like it have some unrealistic expectations of what an Alien movie should be. Covenant is not a terrible movie by any stretch of the imagination and you guys are comparing it to the likes of Resurrection and Requiem which was absolutely horrendous. If you went in there expecting a story as grande as Alien, Aliens or Prometheus, you are going to be disappointed.
I was never sold on the slasher version of "The Island of Dr Moreau".
You give us Prometheus which flawed as it is I really enjoyed. Then they drop just a boring, typical, tie the series in a bow and ruin the mystery sequel (the David created the Alien, Shaw as the proto-queen and this ending up as a weird love story is really disappointing). People who expect more are bound to be disappointed.
If it comes out. Lets see how this movie holds up second week.
[/quote]
Of course it will, they're going to start filming within 14 months or so. But if you don't want that then you're a f**kING MORON!
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 12:01:55 PM
Guys, have a look at this, I copied this from another thread:
Hi all,
I'm a new member so I apologize in advance if I make some mistakes regarding board/posting norms. I teach college level classes in Media Studies and have a background in Film/TV along with degrees in the aforementioned fields and the social sciences. Since Hollywood movies aren't always respected by those in higher learning, I thought I would feel more at home with fellow Alien fans rather than writing/discussing in other places.
Just saw Alien: Covenant last night. After viewing it, I was impressed with how everything is starting to connect with the entire Alien universe. This connection is occurring at both a plot and thematic/philosophical level. I was particularly stunned at how Scott was still able to thread the philosophical nature of Prometheus with pacing/horror of the original series - all in an attempt to assuage Prometheus' critics.
Let's look at some key elements:
David's name and birth - Why call Fassbender's android David? Many speculated that this follows the series' alphabetical android naming process. We have Ash (letter A) in Alien, Bishop in Aliens/Alien 3 (Letter B), and Call in Alien: Resurrection (letter C). Prometheus follows the pattern by giving the letter D it's due. However, Alien: Covenant breaks this pattern with Walter (letter W). Why?
Part 1:
We learn that David is named after the famous Michelangelo statue. This greatly changes the meaning of his name. The David statue is important on two levels:
1) it represents the Renaissance's physical representation of the ideal man. Just as David, the android, represents Weyland's "ideal" creation/son.
2) It foreshadows the critical importance of David's actions. The David statue is modeled after the Biblical character (religious themes like in Prometheus). David, the mere weakling, destroys the giant, more powerful Goliath. This parallels David's actions with both the death of the engineers (the Goliaths or giants) and his intent to kill mankind (the other Goliaths, his masters/creators). The unlikely android servant becomes a god just as the Biblical character becomes an unlikely victor.
The question is: was this the plan from the start? Was this Scott's plan with Prometheus? It all ties in. The name has nothing to do with an alphabetical nature (as evidenced by Walter) - David's name comes from a place of deeper meaning planted in Prometheus.
Part 2
Ozymandias, Shelley, and Frankenstein
Along with the David statue, another major artistic reference is Percy Shelley's Ozymandias poem. The poem refers to the decline of a great civilization (Ancient Egypt). David recites a line from the poem when dropping the black ooze (or black oil from The X-Files if you prefer ;)). So, David is destroying the empire of the engineers just as referenced in the poem. He is also intent on destroying the other declining civilization - mankind. He references this in his conversation with Walter stating something along the lines of "why are they leaving earth, looking for colonies - they are in decline and shouldn't be allowed to restart."
However, there is a multiple layer of deep meaning in the Ozymandias choice:
1) David mistakenly claims that the poem is written by Byron. This is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT - on a surface level, it shows that David is not programmed correctly, which explains his many violent actions.
On a deeper level, it highlights David's totally incongruous actions. Byron was actually an outspoken critic of "automation" - he claimed it would hurt mankind. Yet, David admires Byron (albeit erroneously) - just as he kills Shaw, yet clearly loves her. He is like a robotic Jekyll and Hyde. He serves Weyland, yet undermines him. He kisses Walter, yet tries to destroy him. He kisses Daniels, before he attempts to murder her.
2) Percy Shelley, author of Ozymandias, was married to Mary Shelley, author of Frankenstein. Frankenstein, of course, is about the horrors of creation, the horrors of Man playing God. This lines up thematically with the prequel series - when Man plays God (Weyland creates AI) horrible things happen.
What's important about the Shelley connection? Many claim that Percy may have co-written Frankenstein. Does anyone know what the original title of Frankenstein was - The Modern Prometheus
So again, the seeds of Covenant and its plot are thematically connected to Prometheus. To some extent, by giving the title Prometheus to the first prequel, we were destined to have the plot in Covenant - the engineers were never (thematically) going to make sense as creators of the Xenomorph. I know this may hurt the perceptions of some fans - but look at the threads - the prequel series is a futuristic Frankenstein or (Futuristic "Modern Prometheus").
It is mankind's actions (AI creation) that lead to the horrors. The Frankenstein monster (David) turns against its creator. Scott and crew just make the Frankenstein monster, David, become another creator in his act of revenge on mankind.
Part 3
Who is Prometheus?
We all know the tale of Prometheus by now. So who is Prometheus? I will contend that Elizabeth Shaw is in fact "Prometheus" - it is why she is the lead of the first prequel and why she must be deceased in the second prequel.
Prometheus, a god (creator species), gives the power of making fire (ability to start civilization) to mankind (created species). For this action, Prometheus is chained eternally and tortured.
Elizabeth Shaw, a human (creator species) gives android David (created species) power by reattaching his head and granting him access to the Engineer ship(ability to start civilization/create life). For this action, Elizabeth Shaw is taxidermied/turned into a stuffed animal (chained eternally/tortured).
Conclusion (I know, finally)
So, all of the themes/references in Prometheus actually connect quite well in Covenant, despite the fact that the film feels more like an "Alien" movie. I'm impressed with how this was all done and wonder if this was planned all along or if they've been able to connect the dots as they go.
I've read some of the fan criticisms and respect the viewpoints. But from a thematic perspective, this was the direction they seemed to be heading in since Prometheus. Shaw was never going to be the lead for the entirety of the prequel series and David was always going to play the critical role in the creation story.
Now since the Xenomorph origin has been largely revealed and philosophical connections have been made, we are left with two major PLOT points moving forward:
1) How does the company learn about the Xenomorph and why/who wants it?
2) How does the original derelict/Space Jockey wind up in the condition of the original Alien?
Thoughts?
Wow! Who wrote this and where? I'd like to thank him for providing such a well thought out analysis! Certainly got me thinking about Prometheus and covenant in a different light...
However there's still 'Alien' to think about. Here's my biggest criticism of the film: The alien.
When I first saw alien, there was a grand sense of mystery behind the Origin of the alien and the derelict. Dallas's comment about the pilot being dead a long time and looking fossilized gave us all the impression these creatures were very old and had been on lv 426 for centuries. I didn't like the idea of Prometheus exploring more of the space jockey so much because it answered questions that were better left unanswered. But I didn't despise it exactly either. What I disliked most about Prometheus was the pacing, poorly developed characters, and overall plot. Not exactly a fan of the black goo either. But since we only had vague hints of the original alien throughout Prometheus I was able to live with it.
Covenant made the big mistake of showing us officially that David created the xenomorphs a mere few decades before the nostromo found them on lv 426. I don't fully blame Ridley Scott or the writers for this though. I blame the fans, myself included, for ranting in the first place about how Prometheus wasn't 'alien' enough. Maybe Ridley really did have a grand plan in mind, and he decided now to show us the alien onscreen again in response to that criticism. I think this movie would have been better, and by extension Prometheus would have been made better, if covenant had left out the xenos. Davids creation could have easily been something else that, like the neomorphs, had some similarities with the xenos but still fundamentally different. That would have preserved at least some of the mystery in 'alien' while still accomplishing the story/themes of Prometheus that Ridley set out to explore.
Nonetheless, after reading this guy's analysis, I think I need to digest covenant a little more... so now, I'm "still collating" (see what I did there? Bwahaha). ;-)
I liked it! Kind of perfunctory as an Alien movie, but as a mad scientist movie it's weird and fascinating.
My only true gripe was the pacing. Wayyy too fast. I will definitely have to see it again.
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 03:09:52 AM
If this is what the remaining Alien films going forward are going to be, than I don't really know how to feel. It's hard to believe the same person who made Alien made this. Then again, that was nearly 40 years ago, Scott is a different person. But honestly, I'd rather keep in the tradition of the classic films and allow new visionary directors make Alien movies, because Ridley doesn't seem like he wants to.
While I don't hate Covenant, I don't like the direction it's setting up to go in. I'm with you in that I hope they give it to someone else who actually wants to make Alien films. Not David films with Aliens tacked on. And I love David. I'd rather Scott had been able to make an Alien-less film focusing around David and the Neomorphs.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 03:51:45 PM
QuoteIf it comes out. Lets see how this movie holds up second week.
Of course it will, they're going to start filming within 14 months or so. But if you don't want that then you're a f**kING MORON!
Can I also remind everyone to conduct themselves with some sense of maturity? I'm so bored of having to remind people to act like adults. We won't all agree (obviously) but we can disagree like grown-ups without resorting to insults. If anyone feels they can't act in such a fashion, I suggest they don't post.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 20, 2017, 04:07:58 PM
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 03:09:52 AM
If this is what the remaining Alien films going forward are going to be, than I don't really know how to feel. It's hard to believe the same person who made Alien made this. Then again, that was nearly 40 years ago, Scott is a different person. But honestly, I'd rather keep in the tradition of the classic films and allow new visionary directors make Alien movies, because Ridley doesn't seem like he wants to.
While I don't hate Covenant, I don't like the direction it's setting up to go in. I'm with you in that I hope they give it to someone else who actually wants to make Alien films. Not David films with Aliens tacked on. And I love David. I'd rather Scott had been able to make an Alien-less film focusing around David and the Neomorphs.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 03:51:45 PM
QuoteIf it comes out. Lets see how this movie holds up second week.
Of course it will, they're going to start filming within 14 months or so. But if you don't want that then you're a f**kING MORON!
Can I also remind everyone to conduct themselves with some sense of maturity? I'm so bored of having to remind people to act like adults. We won't all agree (obviously) but we can disagree like grown-ups without resorting to insults. If anyone feels they can't act in such a fashion, I suggest they don't post.
Sorry Hicks but the amount of haters here is just baffling. And this is a site for Alien and Predator fans?! You count me out! - Hudson-
Honestly, it stands to reason that you will get the most divisive responses on fan board. If I see a bad movie that I have no prior connection with, it's just a bad movie. If I see a bad movie courtesy of a franchise I love, I'm going to be livid. That's not to see I hated Covenant. Far from it, though I was disappointed given my expectations. Anyone can like or dislike this film to whichever degree they want and can still be a fan of the franchise.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 20, 2017, 04:07:58 PM
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 03:09:52 AM
If this is what the remaining Alien films going forward are going to be, than I don't really know how to feel. It's hard to believe the same person who made Alien made this. Then again, that was nearly 40 years ago, Scott is a different person. But honestly, I'd rather keep in the tradition of the classic films and allow new visionary directors make Alien movies, because Ridley doesn't seem like he wants to.
While I don't hate Covenant, I don't like the direction it's setting up to go in. I'm with you in that I hope they give it to someone else who actually wants to make Alien films. Not David films with Aliens tacked on. And I love David. I'd rather Scott had been able to make an Alien-less film focusing around David and the Neomorphs.
And everybody would be bitching that no Xenomorphs appear in it so it would be pointless even calling it Alien whatever. Prometheus already did that and look how it turned out. This is the Alien franchise - NOT the Prometheus franchise.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 04:26:40 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 20, 2017, 04:07:58 PM
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 03:09:52 AM
If this is what the remaining Alien films going forward are going to be, than I don't really know how to feel. It's hard to believe the same person who made Alien made this. Then again, that was nearly 40 years ago, Scott is a different person. But honestly, I'd rather keep in the tradition of the classic films and allow new visionary directors make Alien movies, because Ridley doesn't seem like he wants to.
While I don't hate Covenant, I don't like the direction it's setting up to go in. I'm with you in that I hope they give it to someone else who actually wants to make Alien films. Not David films with Aliens tacked on. And I love David. I'd rather Scott had been able to make an Alien-less film focusing around David and the Neomorphs.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 03:51:45 PM
QuoteIf it comes out. Lets see how this movie holds up second week.
Of course it will, they're going to start filming within 14 months or so. But if you don't want that then you're a f**kING MORON!
Can I also remind everyone to conduct themselves with some sense of maturity? I'm so bored of having to remind people to act like adults. We won't all agree (obviously) but we can disagree like grown-ups without resorting to insults. If anyone feels they can't act in such a fashion, I suggest they don't post.
Sorry Hicks but the amount of haters here is just baffling. And this is a site for Alien and Predator fans?! You count me out! - Hudson-
You must not leave Snake! We have to defend this fantastic movie from the onslaught.
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 20, 2017, 03:21:55 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 03:07:18 PM
Nope, saw it fine enough the first time... It shocked me so much it burned in my mind... And surely will not watch this crap fest until it comes out on TiVo... Definitely not gonna waste more money on it...
Not liking the film is of course your prerogative... and the film certainly has its flaws, but making shit up like 'David was bleeding blood WTF?' (paraphrasing), undermines your overall criticism; as it looks like you were either not paying enough attention or wilfully picking holes where it's not warranted.
Know what I saw... you were the one not paying attention AT ALL... you do not confuse white with red... 😂
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 05:08:54 PM
And everybody would be bitching that no Xenomorphs appear in it so it would be pointless even calling it Alien whatever. Prometheus already did that and look how it turned out. This is the Alien franchise - NOT the Prometheus franchise.
Of all the problems Prometheus had, the lack of Aliens was far far far down on its list. I honestly don't remember there being a massive outrage at that when Prometheus came out?
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 05:14:08 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 20, 2017, 03:21:55 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 03:07:18 PM
Nope, saw it fine enough the first time... It shocked me so much it burned in my mind... And surely will not watch this crap fest until it comes out on TiVo... Definitely not gonna waste more money on it...
Not liking the film is of course your prerogative... and the film certainly has its flaws, but making shit up like 'David was bleeding blood WTF?' (paraphrasing), undermines your overall criticism; as it looks like you were either not paying enough attention or wilfully picking holes where it's not warranted.
Know what I saw... you were the one not paying attention AT ALL... you do not confuse white with red... 😂
I've seen the film 3 times. You are incorrect... David did not bleed blood. You are the only person, ANYWHERE, stating that he did.
I would have preferred Ridley continue on his Prometheus path while someone else do an Alien film. If this is the end of exploring the Engineers, then I have to ask what the point of these prequels are.
I know I was disappointed there was no Xenomorphs in it and I know you've remarked at just how much better Spaiht's original draft was. I don't really see the issue here. I went to see an Alien movie and I got to see exactly what I wanted which was Xenomorphs. Would be kinda bizarre to see an Alien movie and not see them.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 04:26:40 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 20, 2017, 04:07:58 PM
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 03:09:52 AM
If this is what the remaining Alien films going forward are going to be, than I don't really know how to feel. It's hard to believe the same person who made Alien made this. Then again, that was nearly 40 years ago, Scott is a different person. But honestly, I'd rather keep in the tradition of the classic films and allow new visionary directors make Alien movies, because Ridley doesn't seem like he wants to.
While I don't hate Covenant, I don't like the direction it's setting up to go in. I'm with you in that I hope they give it to someone else who actually wants to make Alien films. Not David films with Aliens tacked on. And I love David. I'd rather Scott had been able to make an Alien-less film focusing around David and the Neomorphs.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 03:51:45 PM
QuoteIf it comes out. Lets see how this movie holds up second week.
Of course it will, they're going to start filming within 14 months or so. But if you don't want that then you're a f**kING MORON!
Can I also remind everyone to conduct themselves with some sense of maturity? I'm so bored of having to remind people to act like adults. We won't all agree (obviously) but we can disagree like grown-ups without resorting to insults. If anyone feels they can't act in such a fashion, I suggest they don't post.
Sorry Hicks but the amount of haters here is just baffling. And this is a site for Alien and Predator fans?! You count me out! - Hudson-
Being a TRUE fan is not blindly liking everything... I have gripes with ALL ALIEN movies, no exception, but they are usually minor to livable and definitely not crippling my enjoyment of them... until COVENANT... this is an outrageous attack on fans with a man-made Android making the Xenomorphs, the Engineers being removed for Ridley's and Fox's convenience purposes and Shaw's story completely removed so we could have a ridiculous psychotic Android being Dr. Moreau... Crying, sarcastic, psychotic, megalomaniacal, egomaniacal... Wonder who programmed all that into a first gen droid... Certainly not Weyland... And since when does David's security code works after ten years, ESPECIALLY since Walter clearly stated David 'scared' them all back on Earth... No way would his security code still work, a MAJOR plot hole... And MU-TH-UR would never allow it to take over the ship as well... A d the list goes on and on...
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 20, 2017, 05:22:09 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 05:14:08 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 20, 2017, 03:21:55 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 03:07:18 PM
Nope, saw it fine enough the first time... It shocked me so much it burned in my mind... And surely will not watch this crap fest until it comes out on TiVo... Definitely not gonna waste more money on it...
Not liking the film is of course your prerogative... and the film certainly has its flaws, but making shit up like 'David was bleeding blood WTF?' (paraphrasing), undermines your overall criticism; as it looks like you were either not paying enough attention or wilfully picking holes where it's not warranted.
Know what I saw... you were the one not paying attention AT ALL... you do not confuse white with red... 😂
I've seen the film 3 times. You are incorrect... David did not bleed blood. You are the only person, ANYWHERE, stating that he did.
Watch a 4th... you seem to need it, buddy...😂
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 05:25:09 PM
I know I was disappointed there was no Xenomorphs in it and I know you've remarked at just how much better Spaiht's original draft was.
I also said that I thought Spaihts' scripts would benefit from it focusing on the proto-Aliens and just excising the Aliens completely.
The problem is they're included so late in the game that they just aren't treated well. With Covenant it's a rushed life cycle that irritates the fan in me. With Engineers/Alien Zero it's that they're quickly killed and done away with.
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 05:28:29 PM
Watch a 4th... you seem to need it, buddy...😂
I've seen it 4 times and David only bleeds white.
Honestly Yutani, give it a rest. I'm getting pretty sick and tired of you.
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 05:23:52 PM
I would have preferred Ridley continue on his Prometheus path while someone else do an Alien film. If this is the end of exploring the Engineers, then I have to ask what the point of these prequels are.
Right? They pretty cavalierly glossed over the presumed extinction of the species after devoting an entire film to making them. I too would have preferred a more directed follow-up to Prometheus. Or perhaps I would have just preferred better execution in combining elements of the two. While I full well expected the gap between Prometheus & Alien to be bridged, I didn't expect it would be this clunky.
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 05:25:09 PM
I know I was disappointed there was no Xenomorphs in it and I know you've remarked at just how much better Spaiht's original draft was. I don't really see the issue here. I went to see an Alien movie and I got to see exactly what I wanted which was Xenomorphs. Would be kinda bizarre to see an Alien movie and not see them.
So you got what you wanted with Covenant; Xenomorph's. Certainly your disappointment, & others that share your opinion, are what influenced Scott to alter course after Prometheus. I'm of the mindset that we had 4 Alien films. You also have 2 AVP films. I'm going to sound like a broken record eventually, but I enjoyed that Prometheus forged it's own path. Plus, given the events of Covenant, it's sequel is going to have to bend over backwards to make ends meet up with the original.
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 05:28:29 PM
Watch a 4th... you seem to need it, buddy...😂
I refer to my earlier post... You've proven yourself to be so inaccurate with your observations that you've sullied your other comments by default. Why not just admit you were mistaken? Did you see Elvis in Covenant too?
😄
The amount of people shitting on this movie is baffling. How could you guys even compare this to the AVPs or Alien: Ressurections which were both unholy f**king abominations?
Covenant may not be perfect, but it has a lot going for it and personally, I love the direction Ridley is taking the franchise. After that incredible ending, I just cannot wait for the next installment
Me too. Ridley Scott has restored my faith in this franchise.
I saw the film yesterday, and while I spoiled the movie for myself with watching all the footage that was given out by Fox and having read the leaked script a long time ago as well as having seen the leaked test screening scenes, I still liked the movie.
IMO, Ridley Scott can't win; prior to Prometheus, he wanted to move away from just showing xenomorphs running around and hence explored the idea of the origins of the space jockey and tried to tie that with origins of mankind, but most of the Alien fans or the fans who went in wanting to watch xenomorphs running around didn't like it as there were no xenomorphs. Ridley changed his view and then brought out Covenant which gave the fans the alien creatures, but at the same time did not avoid the origin of them, nor the fate of David/Shaw/Engineers, but the people who want to see more of the Engineers and to explore the grand themes in Prometheus are disappointed with this movie. He cannot please everyone, and while everyone can of course have an opinion about the film, but hating the movie for not taking a direction you wanted it is rather counter-productive IMO.
Now onto the movie, the break-neck speed of the movie was pretty obvious, but I thought that was because Ridley wanted to show all these things but Fox wanted him to cut it all down to about 2 hours. But despite the pacing, I think it successfully conveyed the points it wanted to.
I loved the score, particularly the eerie weird one that was used multiple times including in the med-bay. The neomorphs were vicious and an excellent addition to the franchise, and I am not sure why lot of people have complained about the CGI for the xenomorphs; apart from the birth scene, where they used a practical model I think, the CGI looked pretty good IMO.
I thought Fassbender was excellent as both David and Walter, and I actually liked Walter better as a character. It was a shame we didn't quite get to see how David actually ended Walter or if indeed, he was disabled. Crudup was very good as Oram and I didn't have any problem with him being led to the basement by David. Oram was not stupid, infact he was the first to see that something was fishy with David and asked David to reveal what was going on. As far as Oram is concerned, David is still an android, and he is has the weapon with him, plus he just killed that neomorph. Faris, Karine, Cole all behave as one might expect in those situations but the thing that irked me was Ricks and Upwowrth getting it on. Oh well, they might have been a freaky couple I guess. On the topic of charachters making poor choices, we see that in other movies in the franchise as well; for example: Spunkmeyer and the pilot of the lander leaving the door to their lander open when their colleagues just got their "asses kicked" by a very aggressive alien organism.
The extremely fast growth of the neomorph and the xenomorph are of course a little strange, but I look at it this way, from Ledward getting infected to him giving birth to the neomorph didn't take long at all, and this probably is a characteristic of the black goo, which is said to be a pathogen and an ACCELERANT. So, it makes sense that the creatures have a fast life cycle just like the trilobite from Prometheus. I think it also worth remembering that all of these creatures are precursors to the xenomorphs in Alien/Aliens/Alien 3 where clearly some sort of bio-mechanoid splicing has happened which might impact their life cycle.
This is a good movie and IMO, many people have romanticized the first 3 movies. If Alien 3 came out tomorrow, I am fairly sure it would get more criticism than even Prometheus or Covenant.
1. Alien 10/10
2. Aliens 9/10
3. Alien: Covenant 8/10
4. Prometheus 7/10
5. Alien 3 6.5/10
6. Alien Resurrection 5/10
Quote from: The real AG on May 20, 2017, 05:43:36 PM
..the thing that irked me was Ricks and Upwowrth getting it on. Oh well, they might have been a freaky couple I guess.
That could have been some considerable time after they resumed course. Tennessee puts Mother offline to reboot or something until 8 bells, so certainly a few hours pass before the alarm sounds.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 20, 2017, 05:30:37 PM
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 05:25:09 PM
I know I was disappointed there was no Xenomorphs in it and I know you've remarked at just how much better Spaiht's original draft was.
I also said that I thought Spaihts' scripts would benefit from it focusing on the proto-Aliens and just excising the Aliens completely.
The problem is they're included so late in the game that they just aren't treated well. With Covenant it's a rushed life cycle that irritates the fan in me. With Engineers/Alien Zero it's that they're quickly killed and done away with.
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 05:28:29 PM
Watch a 4th... you seem to need it, buddy...😂
I've seen it 4 times and David only bleeds white.
I was stating when Daniels uses the nail to hit it in the throat or chin to get away from its grip... Maybe it was the very dark lighting in the room but it sure did not look white to me... Of course, it seems odd they would make David bleed in that instance alone a dark fluid, but it sure seemed to me they might have missed that one... I will return back to this one in a few months...😁
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 12:01:55 PM
Guys, have a look at this, I copied this from another thread:
Hi all,
I'm a new member so I apologize in advance if I make some mistakes regarding board/posting norms. I teach college level classes in Media Studies and have a background in Film/TV along with degrees in the aforementioned fields and the social sciences. Since Hollywood movies aren't always respected by those in higher learning, I thought I would feel more at home with fellow Alien fans rather than writing/discussing in other places.
Just saw Alien: Covenant last night. After viewing it, I was impressed with how everything is starting to connect with the entire Alien universe. This connection is occurring at both a plot and thematic/philosophical level. I was particularly stunned at how Scott was still able to thread the philosophical nature of Prometheus with pacing/horror of the original series - all in an attempt to assuage Prometheus' critics.
Let's look at some key elements:
David's name and birth - Why call Fassbender's android David? Many speculated that this follows the series' alphabetical android naming process. We have Ash (letter A) in Alien, Bishop in Aliens/Alien 3 (Letter B), and Call in Alien: Resurrection (letter C). Prometheus follows the pattern by giving the letter D it's due. However, Alien: Covenant breaks this pattern with Walter (letter W). Why?
Part 1:
We learn that David is named after the famous Michelangelo statue. This greatly changes the meaning of his name. The David statue is important on two levels:
1) it represents the Renaissance's physical representation of the ideal man. Just as David, the android, represents Weyland's "ideal" creation/son.
2) It foreshadows the critical importance of David's actions. The David statue is modeled after the Biblical character (religious themes like in Prometheus). David, the mere weakling, destroys the giant, more powerful Goliath. This parallels David's actions with both the death of the engineers (the Goliaths or giants) and his intent to kill mankind (the other Goliaths, his masters/creators). The unlikely android servant becomes a god just as the Biblical character becomes an unlikely victor.
The question is: was this the plan from the start? Was this Scott's plan with Prometheus? It all ties in. The name has nothing to do with an alphabetical nature (as evidenced by Walter) - David's name comes from a place of deeper meaning planted in Prometheus.
Part 2
Ozymandias, Shelley, and Frankenstein
Along with the David statue, another major artistic reference is Percy Shelley's Ozymandias poem. The poem refers to the decline of a great civilization (Ancient Egypt). David recites a line from the poem when dropping the black ooze (or black oil from The X-Files if you prefer ;)). So, David is destroying the empire of the engineers just as referenced in the poem. He is also intent on destroying the other declining civilization - mankind. He references this in his conversation with Walter stating something along the lines of "why are they leaving earth, looking for colonies - they are in decline and shouldn't be allowed to restart."
However, there is a multiple layer of deep meaning in the Ozymandias choice:
1) David mistakenly claims that the poem is written by Byron. This is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT - on a surface level, it shows that David is not programmed correctly, which explains his many violent actions.
On a deeper level, it highlights David's totally incongruous actions. Byron was actually an outspoken critic of "automation" - he claimed it would hurt mankind. Yet, David admires Byron (albeit erroneously) - just as he kills Shaw, yet clearly loves her. He is like a robotic Jekyll and Hyde. He serves Weyland, yet undermines him. He kisses Walter, yet tries to destroy him. He kisses Daniels, before he attempts to murder her.
2) Percy Shelley, author of Ozymandias, was married to Mary Shelley, author of Frankenstein. Frankenstein, of course, is about the horrors of creation, the horrors of Man playing God. This lines up thematically with the prequel series - when Man plays God (Weyland creates AI) horrible things happen.
What's important about the Shelley connection? Many claim that Percy may have co-written Frankenstein. Does anyone know what the original title of Frankenstein was - The Modern Prometheus
So again, the seeds of Covenant and its plot are thematically connected to Prometheus. To some extent, by giving the title Prometheus to the first prequel, we were destined to have the plot in Covenant - the engineers were never (thematically) going to make sense as creators of the Xenomorph. I know this may hurt the perceptions of some fans - but look at the threads - the prequel series is a futuristic Frankenstein or (Futuristic "Modern Prometheus").
It is mankind's actions (AI creation) that lead to the horrors. The Frankenstein monster (David) turns against its creator. Scott and crew just make the Frankenstein monster, David, become another creator in his act of revenge on mankind.
Part 3
Who is Prometheus?
We all know the tale of Prometheus by now. So who is Prometheus? I will contend that Elizabeth Shaw is in fact "Prometheus" - it is why she is the lead of the first prequel and why she must be deceased in the second prequel.
Prometheus, a god (creator species), gives the power of making fire (ability to start civilization) to mankind (created species). For this action, Prometheus is chained eternally and tortured.
Elizabeth Shaw, a human (creator species) gives android David (created species) power by reattaching his head and granting him access to the Engineer ship(ability to start civilization/create life). For this action, Elizabeth Shaw is taxidermied/turned into a stuffed animal (chained eternally/tortured).
Conclusion (I know, finally)
So, all of the themes/references in Prometheus actually connect quite well in Covenant, despite the fact that the film feels more like an "Alien" movie. I'm impressed with how this was all done and wonder if this was planned all along or if they've been able to connect the dots as they go.
I've read some of the fan criticisms and respect the viewpoints. But from a thematic perspective, this was the direction they seemed to be heading in since Prometheus. Shaw was never going to be the lead for the entirety of the prequel series and David was always going to play the critical role in the creation story.
Now since the Xenomorph origin has been largely revealed and philosophical connections have been made, we are left with two major PLOT points moving forward:
1) How does the company learn about the Xenomorph and why/who wants it?
2) How does the original derelict/Space Jockey wind up in the condition of the original Alien?
Thoughts?
Wow just read this, such a good analysis, I had a similar thought about the David statue in the Weyland opening, but not so in depth.
I gave it a 4 in the poll - thoroughly entertaining, just not high art like ALIEN. I'm just pissed it wasn't in 3D!
Actually, I have one small quibble that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread: the film's title appearing slowly and in pieces is getting Pretty Damn Tired by this point! :D
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 20, 2017, 05:39:46 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 05:28:29 PM
Watch a 4th... you seem to need it, buddy...😂
I refer to my earlier post... You've proven yourself to be so inaccurate with your observations that you've sullied your other comments by default. Why not just admit you were mistaken? Did you see Elvis in Covenant too?
😄
😂 Sorry, I did not mean to laugh, but ya gotta admit... I will state I was mistaken when I and only I watch it again... That simple... And the color of blood is not my biggest gripe, far from it... You would know that if you weren't so far up your own arrogant arse... So, tell me again your logic: if one thing I say is wrong, then by default, everything else is...? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard... Very defensive as well... Trying the denial plea or are your plans more mature than that...? I apologize in advance to the moderators, but this intellectual garbage could not go unnoticed...
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 20, 2017, 06:10:16 PM
... the color of blood is not my biggest gripe, far from it... You would know that if you weren't so far up your own arrogant arse... So, tell me again your logic: if one thing I say is wrong, then by default, everything else is...? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard... Very defensive as well... Trying the denial plea or are your plans more mature than that...? I apologize in advance to the moderators, but this intellectual garbage could not go unnoticed...
One note, and soon the whole symphony is off.
*Spoilers*
I never write reviews of movies but I felt the need to put my feelings on this one out there to discuss, Sorry in advance if the reviews wis a little messy.
I saw the film last night and overall I enjoyed it but as others have stated, as an Alien fan, I have my issues with it. As a movie I think it was a success being beautifully shot and executed but as an Alien film it has problems. The first half of the film is great everything is done so nicely and is actually creepy, the neomorphs are wonderfully terrifying and were a great addition to the franchise. Once we meet David and are brought to his laboratory of sorts my issues with the film begin to rise. I really enjoyed Prometheus and liked the questions it had me asking. It opened up the universe and asked philosophical questions that were deep and existential, it was very much a movie about exploring and discovering. I was ready for some of my questions to be answered in Covenant even if it was only a few. The grand feeling of Prometheus is gone and Shaw is killed off like she is nothing. We get some idea to what happened and Im glad the movie leaves me with questions but this time around the questions are not ones that have too much depth. The protomorph is my biggest issue with the film, from its sped up life cycle to the CGI used it just did not live up to films of the past. It was not terrible but it was underwhelming and has left me disappointed. The film could have benefited from a slower third act that built up tension and explored the reasoning behind Davids choices and creations. I do like the ending of the film and how it shows the true dark and grim nature of the Alien universe. Again I think the film is enjoyable and is worthy to be in the franchise but it felt a little rushed at the end, with the protomorph feeling shoehorned in to please the people who wanted Aliens in the film. The film was just a little too rushed it would have been better off taking things slow and saving the reveal of the original xenomoprh for the final prequal and could have benefited from being more of a Prometheus sequel than an Alien prequel.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 12:01:55 PM
Guys, have a look at this, I copied this from another thread:
Hi all,
I'm a new member so I apologize in advance if I make some mistakes regarding board/posting norms. I teach college level classes in Media Studies and have a background in Film/TV along with degrees in the aforementioned fields and the social sciences. Since Hollywood movies aren't always respected by those in higher learning, I thought I would feel more at home with fellow Alien fans rather than writing/discussing in other places.
Just saw Alien: Covenant last night. After viewing it, I was impressed with how everything is starting to connect with the entire Alien universe. This connection is occurring at both a plot and thematic/philosophical level. I was particularly stunned at how Scott was still able to thread the philosophical nature of Prometheus with pacing/horror of the original series - all in an attempt to assuage Prometheus' critics.
Let's look at some key elements:
David's name and birth - Why call Fassbender's android David? Many speculated that this follows the series' alphabetical android naming process. We have Ash (letter A) in Alien, Bishop in Aliens/Alien 3 (Letter B), and Call in Alien: Resurrection (letter C). Prometheus follows the pattern by giving the letter D it's due. However, Alien: Covenant breaks this pattern with Walter (letter W). Why?
Part 1:
We learn that David is named after the famous Michelangelo statue. This greatly changes the meaning of his name. The David statue is important on two levels:
...
The naming part is just a tribute to David Giler and Walter Hill
Quote from: szkoki on May 20, 2017, 06:59:32 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 12:01:55 PM
Guys, have a look at this, I copied this from another thread:
Hi all,
I'm a new member so I apologize in advance if I make some mistakes regarding board/posting norms. I teach college level classes in Media Studies and have a background in Film/TV along with degrees in the aforementioned fields and the social sciences. Since Hollywood movies aren't always respected by those in higher learning, I thought I would feel more at home with fellow Alien fans rather than writing/discussing in other places.
Just saw Alien: Covenant last night. After viewing it, I was impressed with how everything is starting to connect with the entire Alien universe. This connection is occurring at both a plot and thematic/philosophical level. I was particularly stunned at how Scott was still able to thread the philosophical nature of Prometheus with pacing/horror of the original series - all in an attempt to assuage Prometheus' critics.
Let's look at some key elements:
David's name and birth - Why call Fassbender's android David? Many speculated that this follows the series' alphabetical android naming process. We have Ash (letter A) in Alien, Bishop in Aliens/Alien 3 (Letter B), and Call in Alien: Resurrection (letter C). Prometheus follows the pattern by giving the letter D it's due. However, Alien: Covenant breaks this pattern with Walter (letter W). Why?
Part 1:
We learn that David is named after the famous Michelangelo statue. This greatly changes the meaning of his name. The David statue is important on two levels:
...
The naming part is just a tribute to David Giler and Walter Hill
Well, that covers Walter, but not so much David.
Quote from: szkoki on May 20, 2017, 06:59:32 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 12:01:55 PM
Guys, have a look at this, I copied this from another thread:
Hi all,
I'm a new member so I apologize in advance if I make some mistakes regarding board/posting norms. I teach college level classes in Media Studies and have a background in Film/TV along with degrees in the aforementioned fields and the social sciences. Since Hollywood movies aren't always respected by those in higher learning, I thought I would feel more at home with fellow Alien fans rather than writing/discussing in other places.
Just saw Alien: Covenant last night. After viewing it, I was impressed with how everything is starting to connect with the entire Alien universe. This connection is occurring at both a plot and thematic/philosophical level. I was particularly stunned at how Scott was still able to thread the philosophical nature of Prometheus with pacing/horror of the original series - all in an attempt to assuage Prometheus' critics.
Let's look at some key elements:
David's name and birth - Why call Fassbender's android David? Many speculated that this follows the series' alphabetical android naming process. We have Ash (letter A) in Alien, Bishop in Aliens/Alien 3 (Letter B), and Call in Alien: Resurrection (letter C). Prometheus follows the pattern by giving the letter D it's due. However, Alien: Covenant breaks this pattern with Walter (letter W). Why?
Part 1:
We learn that David is named after the famous Michelangelo statue. This greatly changes the meaning of his name. The David statue is important on two levels:
...
The naming part is just a tribute to David Giler and Walter Hill
Walter is but David is more than that, hence why he looks at the statue and then selects his name
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 05:08:54 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 20, 2017, 04:07:58 PM
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 03:09:52 AM
If this is what the remaining Alien films going forward are going to be, than I don't really know how to feel. It's hard to believe the same person who made Alien made this. Then again, that was nearly 40 years ago, Scott is a different person. But honestly, I'd rather keep in the tradition of the classic films and allow new visionary directors make Alien movies, because Ridley doesn't seem like he wants to.
While I don't hate Covenant, I don't like the direction it's setting up to go in. I'm with you in that I hope they give it to someone else who actually wants to make Alien films. Not David films with Aliens tacked on. And I love David. I'd rather Scott had been able to make an Alien-less film focusing around David and the Neomorphs.
And everybody would be bitching that no Xenomorphs appear in it so it would be pointless even calling it Alien whatever. Prometheus already did that and look how it turned out. This is the Alien franchise - NOT the Prometheus franchise.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 04:26:40 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 20, 2017, 04:07:58 PM
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 03:09:52 AM
If this is what the remaining Alien films going forward are going to be, than I don't really know how to feel. It's hard to believe the same person who made Alien made this. Then again, that was nearly 40 years ago, Scott is a different person. But honestly, I'd rather keep in the tradition of the classic films and allow new visionary directors make Alien movies, because Ridley doesn't seem like he wants to.
While I don't hate Covenant, I don't like the direction it's setting up to go in. I'm with you in that I hope they give it to someone else who actually wants to make Alien films. Not David films with Aliens tacked on. And I love David. I'd rather Scott had been able to make an Alien-less film focusing around David and the Neomorphs.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 03:51:45 PM
QuoteIf it comes out. Lets see how this movie holds up second week.
Of course it will, they're going to start filming within 14 months or so. But if you don't want that then you're a f**kING MORON!
Can I also remind everyone to conduct themselves with some sense of maturity? I'm so bored of having to remind people to act like adults. We won't all agree (obviously) but we can disagree like grown-ups without resorting to insults. If anyone feels they can't act in such a fashion, I suggest they don't post.
Sorry Hicks but the amount of haters here is just baffling. And this is a site for Alien and Predator fans?! You count me out! - Hudson-
You must not leave Snake! We have to defend this fantastic movie from the onslaught.
Hell yeah. I will defend this movie to the death. Instead of complaining like b*tches (which is just too easy!) we should all be damn grateful for the latest installment of the franchise!
^ Yawn ::)
@Snake
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FFFQjl2R.gif&hash=9f8dc109d756d048d1a25853bfd778c96e31bc95)
- Alien Franchise
Quote from: Stolen on May 09, 2017, 10:04:17 PM
3.5/5
Very strange movie
Part 1 : too long
Part 2 : scary in several ways
Part 3 : too fast
Finally, everything that touches the monster is less interesting.
Everything about David is fantastic.
It's a nightmarish continuation of Prometheus, incredible, unhealthy, frustrating.
It's an alien film terribly banal, sometimes superb (backburster), sometimes debilitated (Rosenthal, Shower scene)
The film is dark, really, and the sets are fantastic.
I love this review, and some others that are like 4/5 stars.
For me, It has so visual and force that could put ir right there with ALIENS, some scenes are similar and we could say is a ripoff but lets put it better in a homage.
And thats one of the things Ridley is caring more, a homage about everything.
Think about this:
David and his experimentation like a Giger's life. Experimenting with drawings, with art.
2001 Odyssey - Stanley Kubrick. Alien has a lot of this movie, and the Covenant gets back to this progressing the concepts. exciting
The Shaw dead - Newt/Hicks in A3. Also, check it out Shaw was little old when David put her in cryo, so maybe she live all of this years.
Aside all this, David superb...
Minor things:
CGI effects - Neomorphs could be better
2 hour mark. It has to be FOX execs. Theres a lot of material out there ala Prometheus, that could put a 3 hour movie with diferent paces
Thats all for the moment
Alien>Aliens>Alien 3 (Director's Cut)>Alien Covenant>Prometheus>Alien Resurrection>AVP>AVPR
That's how I rank the movies
Quote from: Gash on May 20, 2017, 10:26:17 AM
Quote from: Hudson on May 20, 2017, 03:36:47 AM
Also, how is Resurrection a pilot for Firefly if Whedon disowned it essentially?
He disowned it because it was ridiculed as rubbish and he didn't want to take the blame.
Quote from: oberonqa on May 20, 2017, 07:46:38 AM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on May 20, 2017, 07:38:02 AM
Well, just saw the movie in Toronto, Canada. It was very grey and dark. Not digging the color palette. Also, it reminded me of a Star Trek movie. The one on that Genesis planet whichever that is. It's nothing to do with the story. It's just being on an alien planet that looks like earth that irks me, and it felt like being on a set. The ending was ace though. I'm going to have to watch it ten more times before I figure out how I feel about the film. I did prefer Prometheus. Also no explanation at all about why the explorers would go on a planet that clearly has living things on it, without any environmental protective gear. That's just dumb. Again. Dum and dumber...
I am kinda disappointed that you of all people, would bring up the safety protocol argument, JM. I figured you would have caught the bit of dialog where they mention conducting an atmospheric scan and not finding anything dangerous in the atmosphere. :(
Plus, they had seven weeks from finding the planet to arriving at it, plenty of time to get more info on it. As more is revealed later on it's easy enough to assume that it's a planet in abeyance until they arrive and start triggering things.
I am not sure who JM is but I definitely missed that line in the film. Regardless, even if that is what your computer told you, it would be really silly to land on a planet with vegetation of any sort and not wear protection. You could contaminate the whole planet with your genetic stuff, and vice versa. It's just plain dumb, but for the sake of the film we have to overlook it.
Anyway, after seeing it last night, I had a really awesome nightmare about the film. I'm sort of warming up to it a little. Perhaps the fact that I found it really gray is in response to watching Guardians of the Galaxy 2 last week. I went from a super colorful experience to a very dreary and desaturated film and it didn't quite work for me. But the ending was really ace. That's the bit that I had a nightmare about. Falling asleep in what is essentially a coffin with a stupid android like David over me. The ending was truly great horror...
Quote from: Hellspawn28 on May 20, 2017, 08:16:25 PM
Alien>Aliens>Alien 3 (Director's Cut)>Alien Covenant>Prometheus>Alien Resurrection>AVP>AVPR
That's how I rank the movies
I prefer Prometheus over Covenant. There was more mystery and awe in Prometheus. There was nothing really mysterious or surprising in Covenant. That sense of discovery was missing or fell flat.
I'll write a lengthier review later because I feel like I need to give it another view before I can give it a fair verdict, because this movie is just so damn odd in many ways.
Things I LIKED:
- Creature design. I especially like the posture and proportions of the Xenomorph.
- Oram and Daniels were amazing, and I found Oram's wife and the cowboy dude (Tennessee?) to be interesting characters as well.
- Beautifully shot movie.
- Great weather/atmospherical effect.
- Good score.
- Technology, albeit too hi-tech compared to ALIEN, felt realistic.
Things I DIDN'T like:
- Fassbender. Yes, I said it. I like him as an actor and Walter and David are interesting characters, but they DON'T feel like Alien movie character. Or let's put it this way - they feel more like they belong in A:R than ALIEN/ALIENS/A3. The only time I enjoyed David was when he communicated with the Neomorphic followed by him being super creepy in the Egg Cellar.
- I really, really HATED the crane barge/rig action sequence. It was so unnecessary and stupid and so out of character. It felt like the Matrix and all of a sudden they were all action heroes not scared of anything, not even the Alien. It's more ridiculous than the end fight in ALIENS. That scene in A:C really threw me off and I had a hard time to get back into the movie after that.
- The bombardment scene was completely unnecessary and should have been left out. It would left some mystery left in the movie not knowing what exactly happening to them.
- The opening scene did not fit in despite its intentions. Flashback scenes don't belong in Alien movies as it automatically threads on the here-and-now realism that the original movies had, including A:R.
- Space ship designs were a little lacking and didn't feel real. If the planetary effects hadn't been so good those ships would've looked really fake.
That's it for now.
I'll write a lengthier review later because I feel like I need to give it another view before I can give it a fair verdict, because this movie is just so damn odd in many ways.
Things I LIKED:
- Creature design. I especially like the posture and proportions of the Xenomorph.
- Oram and Daniels were amazing, and I found Oram's wife and the cowboy dude (Tennessee?) to be interesting characters as well.
- Beautifully shot movie.
- Great weather/atmospherical effect.
- Good score.
- Technology, albeit too hi-tech compared to ALIEN, felt realistic.
Things I DIDN'T like:
- Fassbender. Yes, I said it. I like him as an actor and Walter and David are interesting characters, but they DON'T feel like Alien movie character. Or let's put it this way - they feel more like they belong in A:R than ALIEN/ALIENS/A3. The only time I enjoyed David was when he communicated with the Neomorphic followed by him being super creepy in the Egg Cellar.
- I really, really HATED the crane barge/rig action sequence. It was so unnecessary and stupid and so out of character. It felt like the Matrix and all of a sudden they were all action heroes not scared of anything, not even the Alien. It's more ridiculous than the end fight in ALIENS. That scene in A:C really threw me off and I had a hard time to get back into the movie after that.
- The bombardment scene was completely unnecessary and should have been left out. It would left some mystery left in the movie not knowing what exactly happening to them.
- The opening scene did not fit in despite its intentions. Flashback scenes don't belong in Alien movies as it automatically threads on the here-and-now realism that the original movies had, including A:R.
- Space ship designs were a little lacking and didn't feel real. If the planetary effects hadn't been so good those ships would've looked really fake.
That's it for now.
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on May 20, 2017, 08:28:11 PM
- I really, really HATED the crane barge/rig action sequence. It was so unnecessary and stupid and so out of character. It felt like the Matrix and all of a sudden they were all action heroes not scared of anything, not even the Alien. It's more ridiculous than the end fight in ALIENS. That scene in A:C really threw me off and I had a hard time to get back into the movie after that.
- The bombardment scene was completely unnecessary and should have been left out. It would left some mystery left in the movie not knowing what exactly happening to them.
Yeah, good point. One of the reasons that action scene didn't hit the mark was because all of the sudden Daniels became a gung-ho action heroine with no development towards that. It felt forced and out of place.
And that flashback came out of nowhere, very jarring.
Apparently, the studio wanted the bombing scene out, but Ridley insisted on keeping it in.
I gotta go with the studio here, it was pretty pointless. I think David's actions throughout Covenant tells the audience what happened to the Engineers.
I think they should've shown the bombing scene in The Crossing prologue.
the medbay scene deserves a much better movie. that was so real, the acting, the character decisions even the "stupid" parts like slipping twice on the same blood spot and shooting the gas tanks it felt all tragically real. i was on my edge
actually im really sad how this movie turned out after that
Visually stunning
Loved having a film full of creatures and it was horribly nasty and gnarly in all the right ways. The neomorph was just great. The backburster and mouthburster scenes were so intense and nasty. The neomorph killing in davids lair was great.
Loved the ships, they all felt real and appropriate for the universe. Its time to get over the advanced tech compared to Alien, this is obviously a modern take on scifi tech and im cool with that.
Loved how splendidly weird the film is, dont see that very often from a studio blockbuster. David was coocoo for cocoa puffs.
The cast was great, really liked oram when actually i thought i would hate him. McBride and Waterson were great.
Davids lair was a visual treat, really sumptuous. The flashback was great. And some of the xenomorph stuff was great too. Loved when it jumps down on top of the guy in davids lair, so cool.
I enjoyed the story and the themes it explored, the ending with david was not meant as a twist. You were suppose to see it coming and it was horrific. I feel david creating the xenomorph isnt set in stone and may change later. I found plenty of wiggle room there.
Now i did think the pacing was really wonky, needed work.
The scenes between david and walter were just too on the nose when it came to the homoerotic undertones. The fingering line made the whole theatre snicker. Hell i snickered and i knew it was coming already.
The xenomorph action at the end was the films weakest part even though there were some really cool moments. These scenes needed to be reworked to include more tension and dread. I did find the aliens death in the hydrolic arm to pretty cool though.
Too much cgi and needed more practical left in. I mean the cgi was mostly good to great but there was just too much whem it came to the creatures.
The xenomorph design was not great imo, its better than in AR and the avp films though.
People do some super dumb shit. Which is normal for an alien film but i wish it could be avoided a bit. David could have dragged oram to the eggs and forced him to take a hugger. That would have been pretty horrific. Had the landing crew worn masks that could still be breached by the parasitic organisms, it would have been better and i think less criticized.
I found a lot the criticism leveled at the film to be superfluous, much of it i didnt notice or take issue with.
Overall it was really enjoyable, nasty, and bleak. It was a great time at the movies.
7.5/10
So I finally saw it today, and I can say that for the first 2/3 of the movie, I was mentally declaring that I loved it.
The opening where we get to meet the crew and see their dynamics was really good, and I enjoyed that the movie allowed a slow burn in the beginning. I liked pretty much all of the characters, and overall it was a massive improvement over Prometheus in that regard. I don't know where the complaints about them acting stupid come from; they seemed to act pretty appropriately the whole movie. Even the scene people have talked about with Oram and his "I saw the devil" line followed by looking at the egg didn't play as dumb to me. Katherine Waterston did a good job, but I do feel her character was under-written. Danny McBride was really the main protagonist, and I liked that just fine.
I loved the score, too. The references to Alien set the mood effectively, and the one or two callbacks to Prometheus when Shaw gets mentioned were great. Even David breaking the fourth wall by playing the theme was surprisingly okay given where it falls in the film.
Fassbender absolutely knocked it out of the park. I was worried form the spoilers that David would come across as a mustache twirling villain, but I actually felt bad for him. He's such a broken toy. If he's going to be the anti-hero of this trilogy, I'm excited to see more. His interactions with Walter were as sexually charged as the other reviews have noted, and the contrast between the two was really well played. Was it my imagination, or was David's voice slightly modulated the whole film as a sort of reference to him being broken? I'll have to listen in another viewing.
Regarding Shaw, I just want to clear up some confusion: the prop we saw a picture of where she has biomechanical stuff growing out of her head is absolutely the one we see in the film, just with the eyes closed rather than open. I don't mind the way her character was written out, because there was more references to her and how much David allegedly loved her than I was expecting. I'm very much looking forward to reading the prequel, because I'm morbidly interested in what David's feeling really are/were. Did he actually love her, but he's so messed up he kills her anyway? It's a story I'm glad is getting told, but I agree that the Crossing prologue should have been in the film. David's "the same thing I'm going to do to you" line and the way he kisses Daniels and Walter was also an interesting play on the sexual violence overtones of the alien. He's such a broken malevolent little boy.
I also found the Byron vs. Shelley mix-up to be a really important moment in the film. It's almost as if by pointing out how David got something so fundamental to his action wrong, Scott was exposing the pseudo-philosophy of Prometheus as empty (and I'm someone who enjoyed Prometheus). This film works really well as a dark, mean spirited, and ugly sequel to Prometheus. It throws hope right out the window, so it works well for this universe.
As far as the bombing scene, they were definitely Engineers. In the film, they look a lot more like Engineers than in some of the still pics, and their voices are unmistakably the same as in the deleted scene from Prometheus. And yes, I definitely saw new limbs and such coming out of some of them once they had been hit with the goo, and I'm pretty sure I saw something come out of one of their chests. I'll have to slow it down when it comes out on Blue Ray, though. I wish the scene was longer.
The Neomorphs were a real standout. I love the design, and the effects seemed more polished than the actually xeno (more on that later).I wish we had seen more of them. David's reaction to Oram killing one was actually affecting. You really get the sense that David has love for his creations, and that's hammered home when the xeno is born. That scene is bound to be controversial, but I enjoyed David and his creation bonding.
Also, having seen the film, David definitely created the xenos, and I actually don't hate it. It may ruin the EU and risks shrinking the universe, but as it stands now, this Frankenstein story about a broken android playing god is compelling enough for me to go with where Scott is taking us.
The xeno is where the negatives start coming in. I was hoping people were exaggerating, but yeah, the CG on the alien is kind of bad. It also didn't work at all seeing it out in the open, and I didn't like how easily the first one was dispatched. I agree with Hicks 100%: they should have left the alien out of the movie and just focused on the Neomorphs as their precursor. The last act on the Covenant didn't work, and you tell editing played a role, although I will say the editing didn't feel as obvious as the last act of Prometheus, where it's painfully apparent that stuff is missing.
The dark ending was great, though, and I'm looking forward to where we go from here,
Overall, it's 2/3 of a great movie, and I hope I get to see it in theaters at least one more time.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 20, 2017, 04:07:58 PM
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 03:09:52 AM
If this is what the remaining Alien films going forward are going to be, than I don't really know how to feel. It's hard to believe the same person who made Alien made this. Then again, that was nearly 40 years ago, Scott is a different person. But honestly, I'd rather keep in the tradition of the classic films and allow new visionary directors make Alien movies, because Ridley doesn't seem like he wants to.
While I don't hate Covenant, I don't like the direction it's setting up to go in. I'm with you in that I hope they give it to someone else who actually wants to make Alien films. Not David films with Aliens tacked on. And I love David. I'd rather Scott had been able to make an Alien-less film focusing around David and the Neomorphs.
You're probably going to disagree with me, but after Ridley Scott's Alien, this film series turned into Ripley's Story with Xenomorphs.
To be honest, I don't see a big difference :-\
This (David being the star) doesn't bother me at all. That being said, I'm very happy with what Scott has given us :)
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on May 20, 2017, 08:28:11 PM
- The opening scene did not fit in despite its intentions. Flashback scenes don't belong in Alien movies as it automatically threads on the here-and-now realism that the original movies had, including A:R.
I think if you're not on board with the set-up of Weyland and David's opening interaction, you're going to have problems with the whole thrust of the film.
I liked it, alot. I think the greatest sin it suffers from is a lack of originality. It's very comparable to the force awakens; just a mashed re-dub of the original movies + Prometheus. That being said, there is a positive side to how this movie was laid out, it answered some questions, but it also left you wanting something more. It also laid the foundation work for the next movie to be a completely original piece of work as it migrated the story away from the black goo.
I think had this movie been an original piece of work and not part of a pre-existing franchise it would have been received much stronger; there are some really great undertones in the movie -- dark and heavy as it should be ;]
That being said, someone who is into syfy horror and has never seen an alien movie may actually enjoy this movie more than the fans, so that is a plus.
All in all, there is still a lot of creative wiggle room after this release which is the good. Ultimately if they tie the story in so that it all makes sense in the end, this movie may end up panning stronger than initially perceived.
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Quote from: Magegg on May 20, 2017, 09:34:51 PM
Just came back from the theater and, dear God.
This has been one of the my worst experiences at movies. Lame and stupid, predictable at every moment, it mixes the worst from each of the worst Alien and AVP movies in the worst package possible.
This must have been the worst marriage between sci fi and horror movies: it features all of the eye-rolling sci fi expository moments as well as the lame stupid characters, decisions and boring gore from horror.
Definitely the worst Alien saga movie, twice as bad as Alien: Resurrection (for those who considered it bad) and leaves a big cloud of stench around one of my favorite film series.
I'd rate it 1/10 because it least it kinds of tried to wrap up some continuity elements from Prometheus, but but I'm still thinking about removing that "1" point because it actually ruined Prometheus, it killed all the chances it had of presenting interesting stuff about the Engineers and such.
Ridley, please commit suicide or something.
I hope the next Predator movie at least will be decent, unlike this embarrassing abhorrent mess from Covenant :/
You're a pathetic asshole
Quote from: szkoki on May 20, 2017, 09:44:46 PM
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:D
Saw it for the second time i was gifted with a ticket. Seriously this movie is below Prometheus. Pisses on it and the alien universe. Seriously its on AVP Requiem level story and characterwise. Its a beautiful piece of crap.
Quote from: szkoki on May 20, 2017, 09:44:46 PM
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Three good images and a giant bug
GREETINGS AVPGALAXY COMMUNITY!!!
Hello! This is my very first post.
I've been a fan of ALIEN since I first saw it as a child, way back on HBO.
I've owned almost every iteration of it from VHS to LASERDISC to DVD to the phenominal BLURAY set,
plus I finally got to see it on a huge IMAX screen last year! 8)
As for my views within the galaxy, I am primarilly an ALIEN fan. I was disappointed when I saw ALIENS in the
theater in 86', I was expecting something like ALIEN and I was let down by the lack of grittiness, lack of
anamorphic photography, lack of superior set design, lack of superior creature design (and omission of Giger)
as well as the film grade and aspect ratio (noteably poor) and general attitude. (Rambo in space vs. what the first film was.)
However, everything since ALIENS has been even worse so I do give it more leeway now, unfortuanantly, this is almost
the case with everything I didn't like in the 70's and 80's - Things got so terrible that what was once no good is now great
in contrast to the cartoon nonsense released today.
ALIEN COVENANT:
My main complaint about the entire film is the CGI. If the rest of the film was not so good, I would have hated it.
As it stands however, I am able to enjoy the movie by viewing it as a new Ridley Scott science fiction film which
primarilly deals with themes of creation but is lacking in terms of an ALIEN film's expected creature designs and execution.
Ridley Scott has been quoted as saying he actually heard us fans when it came to PROMETHEUS and that is why
he decided to put the ALIEN back in the movie. But why make it so half assed? He was even asked why the creatures
were mostly CGI and he said there were things he couldn't do with the limitations of a man in a suit... He talked about
the old ALIEN suit as if it was a thing of shame to be avoided but on this, he missed the mark again because most fans
want practical effects. The alien in Covenant was reduced to basically a Marvel comic book type monster, bouncing off
walls, over animated and unrealistic... The exact things Ridley has complained about before when it comes to CGI!
If there is one thing I would love to happen, I would love for the community to loudly voice that we want practical f/x
in the new ALIEN movie supposedly coming out in 24 months. Ridley listened to the fans when it came to PROMETHEUS.
I would love it if he'd listen to us now and actually make the next ALIEN movie with practical f/x.
The evolution in 3D printing, materials and robotics simply make it inexcuseable to make a monster movie and use CGI,
considering movies like Carpenter's THE THING and even the original ALIEN did it so well without it.
I can't stand the arguement of how else could such and such be done if you don't use CGI?
Well... Don't do it then. Show some restraint! Don't do anything that would require CGI. Use your head and try to figure
out how to do creative things in camera, like a live magic trick. It seems they don't even try anymore, they just cop out
and say oh how else could we do it? But the moment you put a CGI creature in the movie, you loose something tangeable.
I don't need to see creatures running and hopping around in broad daylight, I just need a real scary suit/effect built with
modern robotics and materials that's lit properly and, most importantly, edited properly. So many film makers simply refuse
to do this but I have not seen anyone actually TRY! If it could be done in the 70's and 80's and work, it's ludicris to say it
can't be done in 2017 with all the technical evolution we've made. I just don't understand what's wrong with film makers today.
Other than the fact Covenant fails in the creature department, the other parts are pretty good and I really did enjoy
much of the movie. It was far better than the mess of PROMETHEUS!
Ridley was wrong when he says fans backlashed against PROMETHEUS because it had no creatures...
We backlashed against PROMETHEUS, not because it tried something different... Hell, I personally would have loved
something different yet still Ridley Scott sci-fi! We backlashed because it was stupid. It was paced and edited atrociously.
The acting was awful. The plot was stupid and the reversing of the Space Jockey to be a bio-suit that giant bald people
wear seems like nothing more than laziness over the idea that to render the Jockey how we all actually imagine it to
be would require effects that they'd probably screw up all to Hell because they'd use CGI instead of doing what Scott
himself did in LEGEND with the help of Rob Botin and build an actuall bad ass creature.
Anyone here ever see Henson's Creature Shop tv series? Half the things in that could pass and would be better than
the CGI I see in most of today's big budget films. I kept watching it going "Okay... So they're building these awesome
monsters... Yet all the movies are still using CGI?!? Even though this show is showing how easy it can be done?"
ANYHOW - I'm glad to be here, I've been lurking for years. I hope we have many awesome conversations in the future! 8)
- MnTd
Nice to see the polls panning out in Covenants favor, wouldn't think it by reading the rest of the thread. Shows how deafening the criticism can be even though it seems most people enjoyed it alot.
good for them? i guess
Quote from: szkoki on May 20, 2017, 10:59:29 PM
good for them? i guess
Yep, provides some perspective too.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 03:51:45 PM
If it comes out. Lets see how this movie holds up second week.
Of course it will, they're going to start filming within 14 months or so. But if you don't want that then you're a f**kING MORON!
[/quote]
If it loses money they won't. Ridley Scott is a director. He's not the main money man behind it. He also changes his mind all the goddamn time so who knows when it actually happens if it happens.
So yeah. I'd tell you to go f**k yourself but Hicks told us to behave. Have a nice day.
Saw it yesterday at 8:15. There were only about half the seats taken. This theatre is also a seat booking theatre. I had the option of being able to look at the fullness of all showings when I ordered.
The only showing that was full was the 7pm showing. It was at 90% or so. The next busy was the one I attended at 50%. As for the other times beginning at 11am and occurring every hour or so, most had around 5 to 10 seats taken only.
There was no local community event happening, no local college sporting event happening, and no major concerts happening. There was nothing to siphon away theatre viewers. Amittedly this is anecdotal, but I think this may be a sign of overall audience interest. I think it may be very low.
Is it franchise fatigue? Is it Alien burnout? Is it reaction to Prometheus? I honestly don't know. This theatre tends to cater to geeks and like and they were noticeably absent. Something to think about.
As for the film...
It's okay. It's good but not great. It didn't anger me. It didn't make me super excited about seeing it again.
It certainly benefits from The Martian being made between Prometheus and this film. I think that project may have been a much needed pallet cleanser.
I took my 20 year old daughters with me and that are casual fans of the Alien films. They hated this movie. They thought is was pretty bad in several places. Make of that what you will.
Normally I'd write about the film in more detail. But, others have already done it. And...I really just can't get excited to post on it either way. That's kind of a bummer in and of itself.
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 08:52:01 PM
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on May 20, 2017, 08:28:11 PM
- I really, really HATED the crane barge/rig action sequence. It was so unnecessary and stupid and so out of character. It felt like the Matrix and all of a sudden they were all action heroes not scared of anything, not even the Alien. It's more ridiculous than the end fight in ALIENS. That scene in A:C really threw me off and I had a hard time to get back into the movie after that.
- The bombardment scene was completely unnecessary and should have been left out. It would left some mystery left in the movie not knowing what exactly happening to them.
Yeah, good point. One of the reasons that action scene didn't hit the mark was because all of the sudden Daniels became a gung-ho action heroine with no development towards that. It felt forced and out of place.
And that flashback came out of nowhere, very jarring.
Did IQ's just drop while I was away? The crane resembled a giant mouth. The alien saw it as a threat and even though the crane was much bigger, it attacked it nonetheless. Just goes to show how fearless the thing really is.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 11:14:54 PM
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 08:52:01 PM
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on May 20, 2017, 08:28:11 PM
- I really, really HATED the crane barge/rig action sequence. It was so unnecessary and stupid and so out of character. It felt like the Matrix and all of a sudden they were all action heroes not scared of anything, not even the Alien. It's more ridiculous than the end fight in ALIENS. That scene in A:C really threw me off and I had a hard time to get back into the movie after that.
- The bombardment scene was completely unnecessary and should have been left out. It would left some mystery left in the movie not knowing what exactly happening to them.
Yeah, good point. One of the reasons that action scene didn't hit the mark was because all of the sudden Daniels became a gung-ho action heroine with no development towards that. It felt forced and out of place.
And that flashback came out of nowhere, very jarring.
Did IQ's just drop while I was away? The crane resembled a giant mouth. The alien saw it as a threat and even though the crane was much bigger, it attacked it nonetheless. Just goes to show how fearless the thing really is.
Or how unintelligent it is... what ever happened to "they cut the power?"
This forum is a war zone lol
Quote from: salomonj on May 20, 2017, 11:45:56 PM
This forum is a war zone lol
It's a 10 out of 10 on the at each others throats scale. Way more over the top than the relatively calm Prometheus debates.
Quote from: salomonj on May 20, 2017, 11:45:56 PM
This forum is a war zone lol
Yea it's kind of gone down hill... I'm not even reading most of it. Just skimming and biting my tongue about 90% of the time. The name-calling is getting a bit over the top...
Just saw it a second time... Even better this time around and my wife liked it a lot too. Theatre was about 3/4 full at the 3pm showing and good reactions from the crowd.
Easily will give it a 8.5 out of 10. Maybe higher in retrospect after the next film if it goes in the direction I hope and we get some more menacing Xeno's. They were not bad here but seemed dispatched a little too easily.
The latest in the sci-fi series took in $15.5 million on Friday, nearly doubling and beating out the Guardians $8.8 million.
http://movieweb.com/alien-covenant-box-office-opening-day-franchise-record/
Quote from: Engineer on May 20, 2017, 11:30:04 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 11:14:54 PM
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 08:52:01 PM
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on May 20, 2017, 08:28:11 PM
- I really, really HATED the crane barge/rig action sequence. It was so unnecessary and stupid and so out of character. It felt like the Matrix and all of a sudden they were all action heroes not scared of anything, not even the Alien. It's more ridiculous than the end fight in ALIENS. That scene in A:C really threw me off and I had a hard time to get back into the movie after that.
- The bombardment scene was completely unnecessary and should have been left out. It would left some mystery left in the movie not knowing what exactly happening to them.
Yeah, good point. One of the reasons that action scene didn't hit the mark was because all of the sudden Daniels became a gung-ho action heroine with no development towards that. It felt forced and out of place.
And that flashback came out of nowhere, very jarring.
Did IQ's just drop while I was away? The crane resembled a giant mouth. The alien saw it as a threat and even though the crane was much bigger, it attacked it nonetheless. Just goes to show how fearless the thing really is.
Or how unintelligent it is... what ever happened to "they cut the power?"
Can we even be sure it was them that cut the power? They didn't see them do it and Hudson's statement ' How can they cut the power, they're animals, man!' is a valid question even though he's just a grunt. No offense Hudson ;)
For all we know, it might have been due to the electrical storms...
It's a movie, when characters state things they do so for a reason. When Ripley says they cut the power, it's not to lead the audience falsely. You're stretching.
Regarding many preceding posts: I'm glad to see I'm not crazy.
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 20, 2017, 09:06:35 PM
Apparently, the studio wanted the bombing scene out, but Ridley insisted on keeping it in.
I gotta go with the studio here, it was pretty pointless. I think David's actions throughout Covenant tells the audience what happened to the Engineers.
I think they should've shown the bombing scene in The Crossing prologue.
Ah yes, because studio interference in the Alien series has been notorious for making the films better, no? :laugh:
Thank God this scene wasn't cut.
Quote from: Alionic on May 21, 2017, 02:15:45 AM
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 20, 2017, 09:06:35 PM
Apparently, the studio wanted the bombing scene out, but Ridley insisted on keeping it in.
I gotta go with the studio here, it was pretty pointless. I think David's actions throughout Covenant tells the audience what happened to the Engineers.
I think they should've shown the bombing scene in The Crossing prologue.
Ah yes, because studio interference in the Alien series has been notorious for making the films better, no? :laugh:
Thank God this scene wasn't cut.
Tell me what this scene added to the movie? On a story level the audience should be able to figure out what happened on their own. The scene itself works as a very nice gruesome set piece, but how does that move the story?
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 21, 2017, 02:24:52 AM
Quote from: Alionic on May 21, 2017, 02:15:45 AM
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 20, 2017, 09:06:35 PM
Apparently, the studio wanted the bombing scene out, but Ridley insisted on keeping it in.
I gotta go with the studio here, it was pretty pointless. I think David's actions throughout Covenant tells the audience what happened to the Engineers.
I think they should've shown the bombing scene in The Crossing prologue.
Ah yes, because studio interference in the Alien series has been notorious for making the films better, no? :laugh:
Thank God this scene wasn't cut.
Tell me what this scene added to the movie? On a story level that the audience couldn't figure out on their own. The scene itself works as a gruesome set piece, but how does that move the story?
It showed how the accelerant is weaponized and quite effectively portrayed how effective it is. I had been wondering about this since David found the canisters in Prometheus.
True, but we saw that in Prometheus. I'll give you that though. It did show it on a more massive scale.
Still the scene could've been cut and the movie would've been fine.
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 01:11:38 PM
Honestly, I think you guys who didn't like it have some unrealistic expectations of what an Alien movie should be.
Wait, unrealistic expectations of what an Alien movie should be? Have you seen Alien or not? The bar for the Alien series is: "One of the best films of all time."
Quote from: Hudson on May 21, 2017, 02:31:28 AM
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 01:11:38 PM
Honestly, I think you guys who didn't like it have some unrealistic expectations of what an Alien movie should be.
Wait, unrealistic expectations of what an Alien movie should be? Have you seen Alien or not? The bar for the Alien series is: "One of the best films of all time."
That's a pretty high bar. I mean, I agree, we should be able to expect the best, but I'm not asking
that much out of it.
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 21, 2017, 02:24:52 AM
Quote from: Alionic on May 21, 2017, 02:15:45 AM
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 20, 2017, 09:06:35 PM
Apparently, the studio wanted the bombing scene out, but Ridley insisted on keeping it in.
I gotta go with the studio here, it was pretty pointless. I think David's actions throughout Covenant tells the audience what happened to the Engineers.
I think they should've shown the bombing scene in The Crossing prologue.
Ah yes, because studio interference in the Alien series has been notorious for making the films better, no? :laugh:
Thank God this scene wasn't cut.
Tell me what this scene added to the movie? On a story level the audience should be able to figure out what happened on their own. The scene itself works as a very nice gruesome set piece, but how does that move the story?
You're joking, right? I mean, it kind of showed what happened when David arrived at the planet. Prometheus only ended with him leaving for it.
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 21, 2017, 02:30:19 AM
True, but we saw that in Prometheus. I'll give you that though. It did show it on a more massive scale.
Still the scene could've been cut and the movie would've been fine.
Perhaps, not arguing it would still be a good movie. I will say though, after watching a second time, it does add a certain 'jolt' to that slower portion of the movie. Well placed and the most key part of it all was seeing the tears in the eyes of David after such a horrific act. It did add quite a bit in my opinion in regards to David's character after actually SEEING such a horrific act and what he is capable of, but hey, its just an opinion :)
Quote from: Alionic on May 21, 2017, 02:34:46 AM
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 21, 2017, 02:24:52 AM
Quote from: Alionic on May 21, 2017, 02:15:45 AM
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 20, 2017, 09:06:35 PM
Apparently, the studio wanted the bombing scene out, but Ridley insisted on keeping it in.
I gotta go with the studio here, it was pretty pointless. I think David's actions throughout Covenant tells the audience what happened to the Engineers.
I think they should've shown the bombing scene in The Crossing prologue.
Ah yes, because studio interference in the Alien series has been notorious for making the films better, no? :laugh:
Thank God this scene wasn't cut.
Tell me what this scene added to the movie? On a story level the audience should be able to figure out what happened on their own. The scene itself works as a very nice gruesome set piece, but how does that move the story?
You're joking, right? I mean, it kind of showed what happened when David arrived at the planet. Prometheus only ended with him leaving for it.
I reckon one could infer that David was responsible, though I appreciate the scene for the sake of clarity. My biggest problem with it, shown or not, I that I hate the decision to wipe out the Engineers. It completely undermines Prometheus.
Quote from: Spidey3121 on May 21, 2017, 02:33:43 AM
Quote from: Hudson on May 21, 2017, 02:31:28 AM
Quote from: Darkness on May 20, 2017, 01:11:38 PM
Honestly, I think you guys who didn't like it have some unrealistic expectations of what an Alien movie should be.
Wait, unrealistic expectations of what an Alien movie should be? Have you seen Alien or not? The bar for the Alien series is: "One of the best films of all time."
That's a pretty high bar. I mean, I agree, we should be able to expect the best, but I'm not asking that much out of it.
I'm not saying I'm asking that much of it. I'm saying that's the bar set by Alien. That's the ceiling of this franchise. I do not set my expectations that high every time, that would be absurd. Like I mentioned, I simply set my bar above Alien Resurrection, and I do not feel that even that low bar was reached.
Quote from: Alionic on May 21, 2017, 02:34:46 AM
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 21, 2017, 02:24:52 AM
Quote from: Alionic on May 21, 2017, 02:15:45 AM
Quote from: echobbase79 on May 20, 2017, 09:06:35 PM
Apparently, the studio wanted the bombing scene out, but Ridley insisted on keeping it in.
I gotta go with the studio here, it was pretty pointless. I think David's actions throughout Covenant tells the audience what happened to the Engineers.
I think they should've shown the bombing scene in The Crossing prologue.
Ah yes, because studio interference in the Alien series has been notorious for making the films better, no? :laugh:
Thank God this scene wasn't cut.
Tell me what this scene added to the movie? On a story level the audience should be able to figure out what happened on their own. The scene itself works as a very nice gruesome set piece, but how does that move the story?
You're joking, right? I mean, it kind of showed what happened when David arrived at the planet. Prometheus only ended with him leaving for it.
Yeah, but we see the aftermath of what happens on the planet and David even admits to Walter that he killed them later on when they're talking. Visually, it's a cool scene, but it adds nothing to the story for me.
Quote from: Spidey3121 on May 21, 2017, 02:39:25 AM
My biggest problem with it, shown or not, I that I hate the decision to wipe out the Engineers. It completely undermines Prometheus.
You can thank the endless amount of bitching from fans who wanted an
Alien or
Aliens clone for this.
^ I agree and I felt the flashback focalized through David was clumsy and weird. The scene itself was interesting. The placement of it was clunky and should've been in that viral video.
Also, the Engineers didn't get wiped out. There's one in Alien...
Quote from: Hudson on May 21, 2017, 02:43:01 AM
^ I agree and I felt the flashback focalized through David was clumsy and weird. The scene itself was interesting. The placement of it was clunky and should've been in that viral video.
Also, the Engineers didn't get wiped out. There's one in Alien...
Yes, there is. One w/ a cargo bay full of Xeno eggs, though this film would have us believe that David created them. I must assume that other Engineer's exist b/c otherwise it's a direct contradiction. I must also assume that David is playing the role of re-creator instead of creator. My hope for a follow-up is that David realize how un-godlike he truly is. I mean, c'mon, there's no way a species so invested in genetic experimentation and engineering hadn't already developed "the perfect organism".
Quote from: Snake on May 21, 2017, 12:35:51 AM
Quote from: Engineer on May 20, 2017, 11:30:04 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 11:14:54 PM
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 08:52:01 PM
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on May 20, 2017, 08:28:11 PM
- I really, really HATED the crane barge/rig action sequence. It was so unnecessary and stupid and so out of character. It felt like the Matrix and all of a sudden they were all action heroes not scared of anything, not even the Alien. It's more ridiculous than the end fight in ALIENS. That scene in A:C really threw me off and I had a hard time to get back into the movie after that.
- The bombardment scene was completely unnecessary and should have been left out. It would left some mystery left in the movie not knowing what exactly happening to them.
Yeah, good point. One of the reasons that action scene didn't hit the mark was because all of the sudden Daniels became a gung-ho action heroine with no development towards that. It felt forced and out of place.
And that flashback came out of nowhere, very jarring.
Did IQ's just drop while I was away? The crane resembled a giant mouth. The alien saw it as a threat and even though the crane was much bigger, it attacked it nonetheless. Just goes to show how fearless the thing really is.
Or how unintelligent it is... what ever happened to "they cut the power?"
Can we even be sure it was them that cut the power? They didn't see them do it and Hudson's statement ' How can they cut the power, they're animals, man!' is a valid question even though he's just a grunt. No offense Hudson ;)
For all we know, it might have been due to the electrical storms...
Lmfao you're kidding right?
Most of the creature stuff in this new film didn't really work, imo. Apart from a handful of quick shots - the Alien walking upright as it enters the botanical section - which I assume was a man in a suit. These films cater to modern audiences, expecting cgi garbage comes with the territory.
The original ALIEN was almost perfect in it's on-screen realisation of the adult creature - only once slipping up - with the full body shots of it bouncing off the shuttle's exterior, imo.
Less is definitely more when it comes to seeing (or not) the Alien.
I liked the upright alien walking into the bay. The bit I didn't was the alien falling out in pieces from the claw. It was just too easy to kill them in somewhat comical ways. This was the problem I had with the Jon Spaihts draft "engineers". However at least in that I think they used conventional firepower to kill the aliens.
Quote from: Spidey3121 on May 21, 2017, 03:00:04 AM
Quote from: Hudson on May 21, 2017, 02:43:01 AM
^ I agree and I felt the flashback focalized through David was clumsy and weird. The scene itself was interesting. The placement of it was clunky and should've been in that viral video.
Also, the Engineers didn't get wiped out. There's one in Alien...
Yes, there is. One w/ a cargo bay full of Xeno eggs, though this film would have us believe that David created them. I must assume that other Engineer's exist b/c otherwise it's a direct contradiction. I must also assume that David is playing the role of re-creator instead of creator. My hope for a follow-up is that David realize how un-godlike he truly is. I mean, c'mon, there's no way a species so invested in genetic experimentation and engineering hadn't already developed "the perfect organism".
It would be incredibly poetically ironic too. David wants to create something yet even at his greatest, he could only re-create what his creator's creator created. :P
This is going to be ranty, but I attempted to be as fair as I could in my own personal assessment and refrain from bitching. I'm putting it in a spoiler tag to save everyone the wall of text.
I personally give the movie a five out of ten. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about it, and this "you're not a true fan" business is silly. Anyone can be a true fan and like or dislike the film.
Spoiler
Alien: Covenant review, oh boy, here we go...
I'll be really impressed if anyone makes it through all of this.
I just got back from my second viewing, wanted to give it another chance before finalizing my opinion.
These are my opinions, my speculations, and my frustrations, I'm just sharing my thoughts here and I don't expect anyone to agree with me. It is worth seeing, and anyone who is interested in it should make up their own mind. If you liked the movie, great! I wish I could.
Alien: Covenant is a bad film.
Not only is it a bad film, it's a bad Alien Prequel, and it's a bad Prometheus Sequel.
It's my least favorite of them all, out of any of the Alien, Predator, or Alien Vs. Predator movies. I like it less than Prometheus.
It brings me no pleasure to say this or have this opinion, anyone who knows me will know I was excited for this movie and wanted it to be great. However, I knew after Prometheus and from some of the rumors I was hearing that my expectations should be measured, so I made sure to keep them as low as I could for the release of an Alien film. It didn't help. Like Prometheus, I watched it again, hoping it would grow on me. It didn't.
I realize this, coming from someone who defends the Alien Vs. Predator movies, won't be a popular assessment. That's OK, it's mine and I'm just sharing it. I'll get to why I think those films, while not as well crafted, served the franchise/s better and had more passion in them.
I'm going to go through the whole plot here. If you just want to see my pros, cons and overall thoughts, skip to the end.
------------------
We start with an intriguing scene where David awakens and meets his creator, Peter Weyland for the first time. There is an interesting back and forth here between creator and creation, and it's clear that this is the theme the movie is going to be focusing on, along with David himself. The scene ends with Weyland, uncomfortable with David's line of questioning, requesting for tea right next to him as a power play. I suppose this is the beginning of David's daddy issues.
Really this movie should have been called David: Covenant.
Skip ahead 10 years after Prometheus and we're with the Covenant, a colonization ship, on its long journey to the planet Origae 6. The ship, its solar sails extended is impacted by a random neutrino burst. Walter awakens the crew, and James Franco's character, Captian Branson remains in his pod. Something is clearly wrong with his pod and before long the inside of it bursts into flames, killing him. This was the first part of the movie I was a bit confused by. You would think, due to rank, Walter would be awakening him first. The pod did not look particularly damaged, and they don't build these things with emergency releases?
In any case, the religious character, Oram, assumes command and is uneasy with his perceptions of the crew judging him.
I enjoyed the scene with the characters repairing the damaged ship, we get some really good views of the Covenant ship, as well as the impressive, practically built and moebius inspired spacesuits. Also, seeing a scene straight from Alien, where they eject their dead crew-member's body out of an airlock and into space was a bit of a treat.
As they are about to depart they receive a transmission. A ghostly image who is singing. Tennessee recognizes the song. I guess John Denver is still pretty well known a century from now? Walter, the android on the ship with the same look of David, is logical, straightforward, and yet subtly compassionate. I like him as a character.
They track the transmission to its source on a nearby planet, much closer than their terraforming destination. Oram decides they should check it out as it could potentially be a better candidate for their colony. This alone would be a bad reason and I'm glad they decided to throw in the "This is a human transmission and we're obligated to investigate" bit. Daniels, our female main character, calls this out as a bad idea.
After descending through the stormy atmosphere to the planet's surface, a scene that had distant vibes of the dropship descent in Aliens, they land on the edge of a lake and begin their trek. They have no protective suits, or procedure for an initial walk-around.
Even the astronauts in Prometheus were not that stupid.
Yes they mention the atmospheric contents but like any new planet landed on, you would think initial pathogen tests would need to be made. Space truckers were more concerned with decontamination and quarantine.
Eventually they come across the crashed ship that Shaw and David used to escape LV-223. I had to admit, their reaction to coming across a ship of potential Alien origin was pretty subdued. We see spores infecting a couple crew members. One puts his damn face in it, pokes it, and notices it release. He doesn't think to tell anyone he might be infected once he starts showing symptoms, a la Holloway in Prometheus. They find the origin of the signal and realize that Shaw and David were aboard the ship. Once two characters get sick they rush their way back to the lander.
Two people make it back first, one infected, one accompanying him. They get to the lander and Karine begs for Farris' help. They go to the medbay, Faris proceeds to lock them in, afraid of an outbreak (even though it wouldn't matter as her face had just been sprayed with blood). Karine realizes something emerging after... hugging a potentially infected guy? She begs Farris to open the door. Farris, in a panic, leaves again, runs to grab a weapon. The Neomorph emerges, I guess it's called the bloodburster for this one. Immediately Karine kicks it back, it viciously attacks her and tears her face up. Farris proceeds to open the door, slip on the bloody floor and shoot the ceiling, crawl back out the door, breaking her foot upon it closing. The bloodburster, the one that was just kicked into the wall a moment earlier proceeds to BREAK THE GLASS on the bulkhead door. Farris shoots around the room in a panic, hitting some tanks and blowing up the lander.
The other bloodburster emerges from the throat of the other victim. I'm not using their names because these two people have not been established as characters, so I really don't care what is happening to them other than seeing the thrilling gore of it. The Neomorph comes back LITERALLY SECONDS LATER, NEARLY FULLY GROWN. They shoot at the Neomorph as it takes off Walter's hand. David comes in and fires a flare, I guess the Neomorphs don't like light too much as they scurry off.
David leads them to the Engineer "Necropolis," which like with the Juggernaut, the group seems awfully calm about. This looks ripped straight out of Rome, as if it's the Vatican itself. We get some Prometheus vibes here, seeing a temple like interior with large stone heads. David explains his backstory and asks a few questions of his own.
It's here where Daniels talks to Walter and says what really should have been the tagline of the film:
"Nothing here makes any sense."
Most of the second act is here. We get some intriguing conversations between Walter and David. They have a strange flute-playing scene together.
"I'll do the fingering."
At one point they walked into a garden that was Ripped straight from the Arnold Böcklin painting "Isle of the Dead." It's here where David reveals that Shaw is dead and that he loved her. Making up a story about how the Juggernaut accidentally deployed its cargo and in the confusion their ship crashed.
We see a flashback where David drops the ships deadly cargo on the Engineer city. Why? Who knows. Some glances of female engineers. This is their home planet but they all live in one city? Why were there gates confining them to the courtyard? They are an advanced space-faring race with no defenses? Lots of questions here that we've been waiting for since the end of Prometheus five years ago. If you were hoping for any satisfying answers you're out of luck. The black goo instantly mummifies them? I suppose this is another instance of it doing whatever the plot calls for.
Back to the main story, in true horror movie fashion, Rosenthal goes off on her own to "freshen up" in a dark Alien city she knows nothing about... sure. Of course the Neomorph creeps in and bites her head off. Scott apparently wants us to really get this as going forward there are three extended shots of her head floating in the water.
During this whole time the crew of the Covenant ship is trying to re-establish contact with the ground crew. There's some good tension between the three bridge crew Members, with Tennessee wanting to risk the Covenant by flying into the storm.
The acting captian, Oram walks in to find the Neomorph munching on Rosenthal's corpse. David has already arrived here and is apparently trying to gain the Neomorph's trust. It strangely stands up straight and walks over to David. Oram has had enough and kills the Neomorph with his assault rifle. David has an emotional outburst upon this, which should be a pretty big red flag to Oram. Oram demands answers and David proceeds to show him his Frankenstein lair.
It's here where we start to gain the realization that David is the creator of the Xenomorphs. Ughhhh, Why Scott? Why did you do this? No one wanted this but you. Even the most praising reviews have been tepid about this. I'll express more of my thoughts after this plot run through. David leads Oram like a lamb to the slaughter into his egg chamber and tells him to put his face in the egg. Like an idiot Oram does this and gets facehugged. Didn't see that one coming.
Again, literally moments later. the Xenomorph is bursting out, only it's not a chestburster. It's a mini-Alien that mimics David in reaching its hands out. OK, what? We go back to Walter and David, after seeing Shaw's dissected and mutated corpse. So much for any satisfying conclusion for that character from Prometheus. David goes a bit meta here and plays the theme from Prometheus on his flute. Walter has figured David out. It's here was have a strange quasi incestuous, homo-erotic kiss between both of Micheal Fassbender's characters, before David attacks Walter and disables him. We can see Walter's skin repairing itself.
The characters begin their escape of the temple and, another is facehugged for about 5 seconds before it being cut off of his face. The instantly full-grown Xenomorph shows up (eat your heart out Paul W. S. Anderson), kills one of them as the facehugged for 5 seconds other guy runs off. After David gets all creepy and rapey on Daniels, Walter shows back up and we then get a straight out of Mortal Kombat fight between the two androids. The fight cuts away.
Tennessee arrives in the cargo lander. And why again does a ship of over two thousand people only have one shuttle? "Walter" (we know who this really is) follows them out. After that it's the Xenomorph. They climb aboard as the Xenomorph also hops on. Here's that fight from the trailer we all saw. After some cat-and-mouse back and forth between Daniels and the Alien, it's instantly crunched by heavy machinery and released into pieces, in the scene after its birth. Perfect Organism indeed.
I really get the impression Scott wasn't too interested in making an Alien film here.
They make it back to the ship. Some nice shots of the Covenant in the stormy clouds around this bit, reminded me of Event Horizon. Daniels repairs "Walter's" face, (I thought his skin was self repairing?). David really had time to cut his hand off and do his hair just right so that she wouldn't recognize him up close?
After they depart, it becomes evident a Xenomorph is on the ship. I guess five seconds is enough for a facehug to be effective. And again, the Xenomorph is an adult, instantly. The other two crew members apparently thought it would be a good time to have sex in the showers, and here we get our infamous shower scene that we expected from the trailers. I was actually looking forward to this, I was hoping it would be long and disturbing, but it ends up being quick, horror-movie trope fare, which some were initially afraid of but I defended before I ended up seeing.
They lead the Xenomorph into the terraforming bay, trap it in a tractor, and attempt to blow it out of the airlock. It leaps back on the ships platform just in time to be impaled and thrust into space. Again, because we haven't seen that before.
After getting in the hypersleep pods, Daniels realizes this movie's BIG TWIST! David is pretending to be Walter. Why didn't he just play along with her conversation? The twist was ridiculous. A real twist would have been if it really had been Walter, who I ended up liking much more than David in the film. Instead, the movie went and did the ultimate cliche.
In the very weird final scene, David pukes up some tiny facehuggers encased in the same material that the human fetuses were. OK... how?
------------------
When I first walked out of the theater, I was feeling a lot like I did after Prometheus, confusion, denial. Upon reading the reviews of those both defending the film and criticizing it, and thinking upon it myself, like with Prometheus, I was left with immense frustration and disappointment.
This movie wasn't an Alien film.
Now when I criticize Scott here, I do so granting him the respect of a skilled artist and visionary. I can't deny he knows how to direct, and create beautiful scenes. But personally, I don't think any artist, or the work of any artist, is above criticism. The Martian restored some of my faith in Scott as a film maker, but that wasn't his story. It only illustrated well that Scott's strength lies in his visuals, and when he tries to get too involved in a story, it comes across as just random, pseudo-philosophical musings.
More and more I see Alien wasn't his masterpiece. It was a perfect storm of a strong director (who was still new so could only have so much creative control), the story of Dan O' Bannon and Ronald Shusset, (Both of those writers having criticisms of the direction of the franchise, including Prometheus), and the artistry of H.R. Giger and Ron Cobb. Without any of these elements, the symphony that was Alien likely wouldn't have been nearly as effective as it was.
The problem now is that Scott seems to want to be the entire symphony. Although he didn't write Prometheus and Covenant, he was deeply involved in the story and writing process. I really feel he was completely uninterested in listening to the criticisms of Prometheus, only doubling and tripling down on its flaws. I find it hard to believe, despite what Scott says on how he "listened to the fans." If he did he would have known that our problems went well beyond not seeing the Alien.
This film doesn't even grant us that much. I'm willing to bet the Alien has less screen time in this than in the original film. And even when it was not on screen in Alien, it was in the background, lurking. The threat of it was ever present. Our space trucker characters were all known to the audience, they planned, failed, made mistakes, but they were still smart. They acted how people would act. Prometheus and Covenant both threw this out the window.
There were zero creature practical effects that I could see, if there were any, they were too quick to notice. CG and Practical effects are both great tools for filmmakers to use but when you use all CGI for convenience sake, in the installment of a franchise that is known for its outstanding legacy with practical creature effects, you do it a tremendous disservice.
Scott seems intent on making David the center of the Alien universe, and I'm gonna call it now. David will be the Space Jockey.
I have to wonder if Scott is just becoming cynical.
Like Prometheus, this film ended on a semi-cliffhanger, teasing us that we will get our answers in the sequel. But we didn't get any answers to the giant questions left at the end of Prometheus, why should I wait another three to five years for the answers to this that will likely again, only raise questions and answer nothing. It is everything wrong with Hollywood these days. This movie is a corporate product, and we are to keep throwing money at it with the fleeting hope that it may satisfy, eventually.
The immense advertising and marketing campaign for Covenant was entirely dishonest.
I get the feeling Fox forced Scott to make this an Alien film, so he threw an Alien in to hardly be seen. Far more interested in Androids and philosophy, and turning everything we know on its head for the sake of doing so.
Essentially, this film ruins the mystery of the Alien in the same way Prometheus ruined the mystery of the Space Jockey. Scott said in interviews "No one bothered to ask about the man in the chair." OF COURSE WE DID, and everyone had their own answer for it. That was the beauty of the Space Jockey. It was the ultimate mystery of the Alien Universe. It's the same for the Xenomorph itself, the joy and beauty is that we didn't know where they were from or why they existed, they just were, because space is weird. Hence the name "Alien."
Is it really an "Alien" if it's just the result of an insane android? And for those who never liked the idea of Cameron's Aliens as bugs, David LITERALLY USES BUGS TO CREATE THE XENOMORPH.
I'm tempted to just agree with Dan O'Bannon when he said about the Alien subsequent films:
"I'd like to see it stop. A horror movie's a fragile thing, and once you've gotten past the original, it isn't scary anymore. So you do a bunch of sequels to a horror movie, all they do is drain any remaining impact out of the original. All of the sequels to for instance Invasion Of The Bodysnatchers, same thing; they over-expose the ideas, and when you look at the original, it's not as effective as it would have been if you had just left it alone."
But no, I do think the Alien has lasting power as a franchise, and sometimes you can have too much studio questioning of a director as seemed to be the case with Alien³. But I think Scott is engaged in the Lucas effect here. His reputation is a double edged sword that he's surrounded by yes-men, none of whom would ever have the balls to say "I think this might not be the best idea, Ridley."
For those who were complaining about Neil Blomkamp's Alien film retconning the series, what do you think Scott is doing? Honestly, the franchise is so expansive is convoluted now that I think it would be best to just do away with canon. Have the films be like the Comics, they all tell their own stories in their own universes. Neil even said he didn't want to diminish Alien³ or Resurrection with his film, and yet, Scott wanted to make sure nothing Neil did interfered with his. It seems Scott is intent to keep this franchise to himself, I only hope someone higher at Fox will realize that it may be time to let other creatives have their shots, some who will treat the Xenomorph with the respect it deserves.
While Covenant may have been well crafted from a technical standpoint, what anyone would expect from a Ridley Scott film, it didn't seem to have to passion and respect for the Alien that even the AVP films had. Those knew what they were, they were comic book / video game style movies that added to the mythos, without stepping on the toes of any of the other films.
Covenant takes away from the franchise, making countless expanded universe stories and fan speculations invalid in favor of the worst possible explanation for the origin of the Xenomorph. One so bad, I don't remember any fan thinking of it before Covenant, which is unfortunately, likely exactly why Scott wanted to go for it. The beauty of the Alien is in its simplicity and its mystery, that's where its elegance lies. You turn it into a mutant experiment and you've essentially made Alien go full Resident Evil.
Although I was more receptive to the ideas of Spaiths' script for an Alien Prequel, these films have made me realize that the Alien series should not have prequels. They undermine the most important elements of the Xenomorph and Space Jockey, their mystery. That's the kind of mystery that's good. Mystery that is in the background and serves the plot, not mystery that the plot hinges upon. The mystery that we see in Prometheus and Covenant is just lazy storytelling, lazy screenwriting, and misses the point of Alien. You're going to make Prometheus on the premise of exploring the Engineers, and then go nowhere with it? What? Prometheus is essentially pointless now and Alien Covenant was just one giant detour to pick up David and wonder what he'll do next.
My former film teacher put it nicely: Prometheus was a noble failure, Covenant just fails.
Ok, I gotta stop myself, I'm venting now. so here's the TLDR for anyone who just scrolled to the bottom.
PROS:
-Good production design, cool spaceship, suits, and sets.
-Characters were more human and likable than in Prometheus. Really enjoyed Tennessee.
-Gory and brutal
-Interesting conversations with David, although excessive
-The music was a well done throwback to the original, like Predators had.
CONS:
-No satisfying answers to Prometheus
-Poor character development
-People making even less intelligent decisions than in Prometheus
-Completely screwed up lifecycle.
-Almost no Alien, no practical effects, both times it's dispatched quickly by the crew.
-Obsession with android pseudo-philosophy.
-Leaves us waiting for a sequel, again.
-Ruins the mystery of the Xenomorph
-Most predictable twist ever.
-Like Prometheus, seemingly doesn't know what it wants to be.
WHY?:
-Why did David release the the pathogen on the Engineer city?
-Why were the pathogen's effects on the Engineers different than what we saw in Prometheus?
-Why did David kill Shaw?
-How did David create the Xenomorphs?
-Why did the Juggernaut crash?
-Why do the engineers, an advanced space-faring civilization, only live in one city where giant gates trap them in the courtyard?
-If David creates the Xenomorphs, why were they alluded to in multiple murals in Prometheus?
-Still waiting to know why the Engineers wanted to kill us or what those maps in caves were about.
-David couldn't repair the Juggernaut with all his newfound knowledge of the Engineers?
Final Score: 5/10
AVP3, Alien 5, and The Predator can't come soon enough.
Alan Dean Foster has his work cut out for him.
why the ship crash landed after all?
Why are people becoming increasingly obsessed with writing pages of material dissecting and critiquing a film? I'm all for discussion and airing views, but why this trend for such verbosity? I think this is part of the problem...
People into film have always dissected, analyzed, and critiqued films, and with way more pages than I did.
No one is forcing you to read it, and I prefaced it by recommending people skip to the end if they just want quick thoughts.
As much as the cgi was overdone in alien covenant, I still prefered that to seeing woodruff in a big floppy rubber suit again.
Quote from: RidgeTop on May 21, 2017, 11:02:01 AM
People into film have always dissected, analyzed, and critiqued films, and with way more pages than I did.
No one is forcing you to read it, and I prefaced it by recommending people skip to the end if they just want quick thoughts.
My post wasn't aimed at you specifically... you may work for The Guardian, or other, for all I know.. But I happen to disagree with you. People haven't always blogged about films because the technology didn't exist to publish unsolicited critiques of films/music, art in general. It's a modern phenomenon and seems directly linked with the growth of the internet and social media in particular where, as people begin to understand their lack of relevance in the universe, they instead try and validate their own existence by putting themselves at the heart of a diatribe about Star Wars or Alien: Covenant etc. I find these blogs/criticisms not so much reflective of the things under review, but much more about the individual posting them. You don't have to agree of course...
My main problems with the films were that it was completely predictable, B-movie-horror stupid (with all the dumb character decisions and such) and a mean-spirited gore fest with little more than that. Say whatever you want about the other Alien entries, but most of them ended in an upbeat note and that was something we liked about the Alien series. As for Covenant, it honesty it felt like a followup fanfic written by a 14 years old.
The focus on David was way too much and even if Fassbender's acting is very good, we had too much about this, the double of Fassbender and the character itself is very overrated for what it is: a psychopath robot that wants to destroy all life and rule the universe because he thinks humans are flawed.
There's not much I could say on its favor, for me it's just another Alien movie to ignore, but if some people like it that's fine for me, but I'm simply convinced it's not a good movie.
My opinion on the movie could change a bit depending of the outcome of the next sequel; if they have something brilliant planned, the movie might be worth it after all... but after how they completely botched Prometheus's promise of thoughtful sci-fi and completely eviscerated that cool premise in the worst possible form in this movie, I can't count on it. I'll look forward and enjoy the next Alien movie only because I'm a fan, but I definitely don't like the route it's taking.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on May 11, 2017, 03:34:39 PM
Overall I really enjoyed it. 8/10
Biggest positive for me was Walter and David, and David's personality now; he's quite something and he's completely sold the direction here on out for me. Spoiler
Lovecraftian Old Gods et al would have been cool but incredibly safe for me (not to mention opening up further infinite regression), I actually find where this is going far more interesting thematically, but that's me. I am very intrigued for the next film, I can tell you that much.
Shaw's fate? LOVED THAT! ;D ;D
Spoiler
I quite literally gasped at that, actually, I'm glad I read no leaks and didn't watch any tv spots (apart from the crew logs and first two prologues). He really harvested her good, damn.
The neomorphs were quite beautiful, definitely a worthy addition to the canon.
The tone was consistent and I could feel my stomach turning through out. Gorgeously shot, the production values were top notch, as usual. Some truly striking images throughout.
As for some certain deviations in Spoiler
the xeno's lifecycle; this ain't the Giger form descended from the derelict on 426, repeat, I suspect that form will be the evolved, further perfected life form that David will not be able to control, ergo, the biomechanical big chap requires longer gestation periods, obviously since there's more going on as far as its biology is concerned. Even the eggs in this film are David's design, but it will get out of his control, no doubt. They're edging into the Giger stuff, after all.
I think it did about as well as it could have to deal with everything left over from Prometheus and still satisfy as well. I'll definitely need to see it again though. But yeah, I enjoyed it quite a bit and my gripes are pretty minor all things considered, mainly CGI and pacing. But I've come to terms with accepting that the first two films - and what made them masterpieces - will never happen again.
Ridley's a madman, and I love him all the more for it. Bring on the next one.
nice review...very much agreed on all points
If there was ever a perfect example of a movie that didn't need a prequel, Alien is it, and I still can't for the life of me understand why Scott has insisted it should.
I'm very tempted to just view these new films as a new modern Alien series, a reboot if you will, because for me, ruining the mystery of my favorite movie of all time isn't my jam.
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 21, 2017, 04:38:33 PM
If there was ever a perfect example of a movie that didn't need a prequel, Alien is it, and I still can't for the life of me understand why Scott has insisted it should.
I'm very tempted to just view these new films as a new modern Alien series, a reboot if you will, because for me, ruining the mystery of my favorite movie of all time isn't my jam.
Exactly!!
The 1st AVP is waay better than this shit and works better as a film/enjoyable experience as a whole. More passion, respect to the lore/expands on it, the monsters looked/acted better. With 2 words cool, coherent stuff.
(with the exception that it is set in present day earth but they got away with it sorta cause of the pyramid)
And what we have here --- Covenant...
Many boring/weak scenes (like that fight on top of the lander) + silliness. The 1st half was good, backbuster scene was also interesting and a few other things scattered here and there. But 5 years for this? Yeah, Ridley is visioner and knows how to direct/frame shots but he needs the help of a good script/ideas.
And I'm saying this being a huge BladeRunner/cyberpunk fan; M. Fassbender kills it as an android and all... Good thing I didn't hyped myself that much like with the previous movie.
Prometheus was better, I didn't expect that. :/
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 21, 2017, 04:38:33 PM
If there was ever a perfect example of a movie that didn't need a prequel, Alien is it, and I still can't for the life of me understand why Scott has insisted it should.
I'm very tempted to just view these new films as a new modern Alien series, a reboot if you will, because for me, ruining the mystery of my favorite movie of all time isn't my jam.
This is why I loved the route that Prometheus took. It wasn't a straight prequel that lead directly into the events of Alien. I thought the Space Jockey's were worth exploring. I understand that some people were upset with how that played out, but I am not one of them. And it didn't directly contradict anything in Alien, whereas Covenant seemingly does. I say seemingly b/c fingers crossed that any sequel we get will correct course.
Yes, Prometheus distancing itself from Alien was a good thing in hindsight, and at least Covenant actually doesn't connect directly to Alien either. Until the next film potentially at least. Oh god...
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 21, 2017, 10:11:46 AM
Why are people becoming increasingly obsessed with writing pages of material dissecting and critiquing a film? I'm all for discussion and airing views, but why this trend for such verbosity? I think this is part of the problem...
If you really need an explanation as to why we dissect and critique, then there's no reason to even bother explaining at this point.
Also, some of us are educated and enjoy thinking as if that's a crime...
I'm pursuing an MFA in fiction writing. You telling me it's not okay to interrogate the narrative based on my daily life pursuit? Take a nap.
First of all, people who like the movie and are upset that others dislike it need to calm the f**k down. You didn't make the movie. You were not involved. Don't take it personally. There are no stakes in it for you. I don't care that people like it. The only thing irritating is the lengths people will go to bend over backwards to defend things in the film that are poorly executed on an empirical level. For instance, trying to explain a miscue or plot hole in the story by speculating on what may have been edited.
The point of stasis in so many of these arguments isn't anywhere near being reached, and people are just going back and forth with no aim to certain debates.
The parallel between what I've seen in this thread and blatant nationalism is pretty bizarre. We don't need to 'earn' our right to be fans. And if we do, then let's start comparing our collection sizes to prove our patriotism to one another. By the same logic that hilariously states we're bad fans for disliking Covenant, you are all bad fans for disliking Alien Resurrection. AvP. AvPR. Prometheus. Any of the movies, so give it a rest.
Unless we're just supposed to appreciate that Ridley Scott directed it, because he's never made a bad movie. ::)
We missed out on Blomkamp's Alien 5 for this......*sigh. And now we have Scott's 3rd alien prequel movie to "look forward" to... Watch it be ANOTHER story about a 3rd group of people on a 3rd ship traveling to yet a 3rd planet again.....pfft.
Overall I preferred it over Prometheus, I think the solid acting from the main cast is the factor that makes me prefer this over that film. The first 40 minutes of the movie were well done and I was happy with it, once people start getting infected, I felt the movie began its downward spiral.
I was extremely disappointed with the heavy usage of cgi on the protomorph, I think based on how they wanted this creature to move and the general speed it does things, they resorted to cgi to do it. It looks quite good in some shots, but the observation that it feels like it has no weight is true. Aside from when its banging its head on glass, it doesn't feel like the creature is ever in the room with people. Also I felt the POV shots were completely unnecessary and didn't add value to the movie, it just felt thrown in.
The big thing I was looking to this movie to deliver was an explanation as to how the protomorph comes to be. Aside from some vague dialogue, I didn't buy that David somehow bio-engeneered the creature with the supplies he had. It the film showed something like an Engineer lab, I would be more onboard with it, despite the fact I'm not keen on how these films are treating David as their creator (If indeed he is the creator of the xenomorph). However, they're not even doing a good job of following through on that. Something that would have lessened the salt on the wound for me was if David stumbled onto some sort of engineer blueprint on how to "make" a xenomorph and the resulting protomorph is just the by-product of an attempt to follow the recipe. That keeps the creation of the xenomorph in the hands of the engineers and the protomorph is David's own stab at creating life. To me, it provides a serviceable off-shoot plot exploration from the main events of the Alien series and delivers a story with the DNA of the alien without harshly messing with what's been established over the years. That's just my own view on a possible origin for the xenomorph's given what's established in Prometheus.
My criticism's mirror many others so I won't go into them. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't get another Alien film. The box office returns are tracking behind Prometheus and despite the lower budget, I think in today's movie landscape with mega franchises soaking up all the box office dollars, an underperforming franchise movie will probably be the end of the franchise for awhile. There's articles out there that the next film is set to go, but as we've seen with other sequels, if this one underperforms, they'll pull the plug on Covenant 2 for sure.
Overall its an alright movie, as a fan though, I'm not currently happy with the "alien origin" direction if it indeed is meant to be the xenomorph's true origin.
My personal franchise ranking: Alien, Aliens, (Alien: Isolation, I'm a big fan of the game and could live with this being canon) Alien 3, Alien: Covenant, Alien: Resurrection, Prometheus
Just got back from the theater...
Eh... It was better than I was expecting based on certain spoilers, but it's not that great on the whole. I do think that it's mainly well made and well acted, and I didn't mind the CGI as much as some seem to, the one Alien clipping through the damn floor aside. :laugh: Certain bits were very suspenseful, and the look and production design is excellent. I liked the Aliens, too, even though they weren't used all that well. However...
The characters are very poorly set up, making it hard to tell most of them apart. I had a hard time getting invested in Daniels, since we only know Branson for about five seconds before he gets flash fried. They try to develop Oram, but it's very half assed, and he's such an unlikable prick that I didn't care. What a waste of Billy Crudup. The only one who felt properly distinct and fleshed out is Tennessee. The rest are so interchangeable that I couldn't keep track of them, and was mainly wondering why they gave Demian Bichir such a nothing role.
The aliens were cool in concept, but the pacing around the neomorphs showing up is lightning fast, and they end up amounting to very little. It's also very hard to take their acrobatic kung fu attacks seriously. The classic xenomorph feels like an after thought, and I really have no idea how they relate to the goo, the deacon, or anything, really... I mean, David supposedly created them out of boredom, but something about that really doesn't add up. That and their life cycle is sped up faster than in AVP.
As a Prometheus sequel, this is a big disappointment, if you cared about anything other than David. Everything interesting from that film is flushed down the toilet, and we're left with vague scraps of a much more interesting film told in flashback. David is just about the only significant carryover, and even so, he's such a completely different character that he might as well be Bob the Builder for all the difference it makes.
Speaking of which, I have to disagree with the majority here: Fassbender isn't that good. He's fine as Walter, even if his (presumably) American accent leaves a lot to be desired. David, on the other hand, is so campy and ridiculous that he is impossible to take seriously, and the awful dialogue he's saddled with doesn't help.
And that ending is just... so... silly.
Meh.
Quote from: KiramidHead on May 21, 2017, 07:52:07 PM
...and I didn't mind the CGI as much as some seem to, the one Alien clipping through the damn floor aside. :laugh:
It didn't, the back tubes fold in.
Quote from: Gash on May 21, 2017, 08:13:28 PM
Quote from: KiramidHead on May 21, 2017, 07:52:07 PM
...and I didn't mind the CGI as much as some seem to, the one Alien clipping through the damn floor aside. :laugh:
It didn't, the back tubes fold in.
My mistake.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 04:26:40 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 20, 2017, 04:07:58 PM
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 03:09:52 AM
If this is what the remaining Alien films going forward are going to be, than I don't really know how to feel. It's hard to believe the same person who made Alien made this. Then again, that was nearly 40 years ago, Scott is a different person. But honestly, I'd rather keep in the tradition of the classic films and allow new visionary directors make Alien movies, because Ridley doesn't seem like he wants to.
While I don't hate Covenant, I don't like the direction it's setting up to go in. I'm with you in that I hope they give it to someone else who actually wants to make Alien films. Not David films with Aliens tacked on. And I love David. I'd rather Scott had been able to make an Alien-less film focusing around David and the Neomorphs.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 03:51:45 PM
QuoteIf it comes out. Lets see how this movie holds up second week.
Of course it will, they're going to start filming within 14 months or so. But if you don't want that then you're a f**kING MORON!
Can I also remind everyone to conduct themselves with some sense of maturity? I'm so bored of having to remind people to act like adults. We won't all agree (obviously) but we can disagree like grown-ups without resorting to insults. If anyone feels they can't act in such a fashion, I suggest they don't post.
Sorry Hicks but the amount of haters here is just baffling. And this is a site for Alien and Predator fans?! You count me out! - Hudson-
So people aren't allowed to dislike a movie according to you? I'm one of the biggest Alien fans on the planet and disliked it...so what...what's wrong with that? It's clear the movie was rushed, CGI aliens suck, not much of a smart story...I mean it's just the 2nd weekend and it feels like it's already forgotten...there's just not much to talk about besides David this David that...wooppiee fkin do.
What pissed me off was not the forest planet, predictable outcomes, but how dumb the Aliens looked at times, the mediocre CGI and the rushed cheese story. There's nothing really smart about this movie besides a few great scenes...and that's why the rating is already at 6.9 on IMDB...and Alien/Aliens is still at 8.4...it was supposed to be a nice smart Sci Fi horror movie instead it was rushed and lost all its potential. The actors were great, planet was not good at all, never got that claustrophobic feeling. I thought the scenes on the space ship would have been more like in Alien instead it was more like Alien Resurrection. Seriously, how can you compare this to Alien or Aliens? That's why ratings are falling and no one's really talking about this movie. The ratings usually don't lie.
I don't understand how Ridley Scott directs Alien and can't see the difference between good sh!t and this sh!t. At least if 80-90% of the Alien scenes were done well like in Alien instead of CGI crapfest runners & AVP style jumpers or had more terror or an intelligent story not many people would be complaining now.
Yes there are probably hidden messages with the gay flute lessons and the rest of the mumbo jumbo but the core element of the franchise (the Alien) sucked. Except for the Beluga Alien attacking that pretty chick in the caves (something that got my hopes up in the movie only to be let down again on the next scene with David talking to it and the way it tried to run away when the dumb commander started firing at it, damn that looked like sh!t)....arghhhhhbh
English not being my native language so I beg your pardon.
I have just seen this film and I can honestly tell you, It was way beyond my expectations. An extraordinary philosophical experience hard to describe. A journey beyond imagination. It comes close to the original Alien movie, but the philosophical aspects with strong interests in other disciplines are beyond anything I've ever seen in the franchise before. This movie is shockingly sophisticated. An original experience through the creation of the alien species but more! Its main initiative is about creation. David was created by the pantheon of industrial mechanics. David is a creative being with talents but he is imperfect. He is soulless. You cannot create something perfect through imperfect. There is no perfect work through soulless people. The soulless creature of xenomorph is an impure testimony of the human industrial mechanism (David). Empty! Seemingly perfect killing machine, just like the viruses or David, but without soul the creation will be nothing but blasphemy. David was the first blasphemy, a crime against mother nature, the xenomorph is the second one. It's all the stuff that defines our imperfect mind through the eye of a synthetic being.
Walter: One wrong note eventually ruins the entire symphony.
So true!
Thank You Mr Ridley Scott!
Quote from: Adam802 on May 21, 2017, 07:08:33 PM
We missed out on Blomkamp's Alien 5 for this......*sigh. And now we have Scott's 3rd alien prequel movie to "look forward" to... Watch it be ANOTHER story about a 3rd group of people on a 3rd ship traveling to yet a 3rd planet again.....pfft.
I've seen some of Blomkamp's movies like District 9 and Chappie and he uses a shaky cam all the time, which just looks awful. I'm glad he doesn't get a shot anymore. About your second remark, I believe Ridley hasn't got a choice. It's not like there are aliens here on earth...
Quote from: Nostromo on May 21, 2017, 08:21:09 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 04:26:40 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 20, 2017, 04:07:58 PM
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 20, 2017, 03:09:52 AM
If this is what the remaining Alien films going forward are going to be, than I don't really know how to feel. It's hard to believe the same person who made Alien made this. Then again, that was nearly 40 years ago, Scott is a different person. But honestly, I'd rather keep in the tradition of the classic films and allow new visionary directors make Alien movies, because Ridley doesn't seem like he wants to.
While I don't hate Covenant, I don't like the direction it's setting up to go in. I'm with you in that I hope they give it to someone else who actually wants to make Alien films. Not David films with Aliens tacked on. And I love David. I'd rather Scott had been able to make an Alien-less film focusing around David and the Neomorphs.
Quote from: Snake on May 20, 2017, 03:51:45 PM
QuoteIf it comes out. Lets see how this movie holds up second week.
Of course it will, they're going to start filming within 14 months or so. But if you don't want that then you're a f**kING MORON!
Can I also remind everyone to conduct themselves with some sense of maturity? I'm so bored of having to remind people to act like adults. We won't all agree (obviously) but we can disagree like grown-ups without resorting to insults. If anyone feels they can't act in such a fashion, I suggest they don't post.
Sorry Hicks but the amount of haters here is just baffling. And this is a site for Alien and Predator fans?! You count me out! - Hudson-
So people aren't allowed to dislike a movie according to you? I'm one of the biggest Alien fans on the planet and disliked it...so what...what's wrong with that? It's clear the movie was rushed, CGI aliens suck, not much of a smart story...I mean it's just the 2nd weekend and it feels like it's already forgotten...there's just not much to talk about besides David this David that...wooppiee fkin do.
What pissed me off was not the forest planet, predictable outcomes, but how dumb the Aliens looked at times, the mediocre CGI and the rushed cheese story. There's nothing really smart about this movie besides a few great scenes...and that's why the rating is already at 6.9 on IMDB...and Alien/Aliens is still at 8.4...it was supposed to be a nice smart Sci Fi horror movie instead it was rushed and lost all its potential. The actors were great, planet was not good at all, never got that claustrophobic feeling. I thought the scenes on the space ship would have been more like in Alien instead it was more like Alien Resurrection. Seriously, how can you compare this to Alien or Aliens? That's why ratings are falling and no one's really talking about this movie. The ratings usually don't lie.
I don't understand how Ridley Scott directs Alien and can't see the difference between good sh!t and this sh!t. At least if 80-90% of the Alien scenes were done well like in Alien instead of CGI crapfest runners & AVP style jumpers or had more terror or an intelligent story not many people would be complaining now.
Yes there are probably hidden messages with the gay flute lessons and the rest of the mumbo jumbo but the core element of the franchise (the Alien) sucked. Except for the Beluga Alien attacking that pretty chick in the caves (something that got my hopes up in the movie only to be let down again on the next scene with David talking to it and the way it tried to run away when the dumb commander started firing at it, damn that looked like sh!t)....arghhhhhbh
Hey man, I'm not saying you aren't allowed to dislike it. Fine by me. But hoping that the movie won't do well at the box office and we wouldn't get a sequel because of that is another thing. And I wouldn't take the ratings on IMDB too serieus, as they are the complete opposite of the poll on this site, where all the alien and predator fans are.
And the CGI looked great and there was still a guy in a suit, but obviously you missed that.
Quote from: RidgeTop on May 21, 2017, 08:31:17 AM
This is going to be ranty, but I attempted to be as fair as I could in my own personal assessment and refrain from bitching. I'm putting it in a spoiler tag to save everyone the wall of text.
I personally give the movie a five out of ten. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about it, and this "you're not a true fan" business is silly. Anyone can be a true fan and like or dislike the film.
Spoiler
Alien: Covenant review, oh boy, here we go...
I'll be really impressed if anyone makes it through all of this.
I just got back from my second viewing, wanted to give it another chance before finalizing my opinion.
These are my opinions, my speculations, and my frustrations, I'm just sharing my thoughts here and I don't expect anyone to agree with me. It is worth seeing, and anyone who is interested in it should make up their own mind. If you liked the movie, great! I wish I could.
Alien: Covenant is a bad film.
Not only is it a bad film, it's a bad Alien Prequel, and it's a bad Prometheus Sequel.
It's my least favorite of them all, out of any of the Alien, Predator, or Alien Vs. Predator movies. I like it less than Prometheus.
It brings me no pleasure to say this or have this opinion, anyone who knows me will know I was excited for this movie and wanted it to be great. However, I knew after Prometheus and from some of the rumors I was hearing that my expectations should be measured, so I made sure to keep them as low as I could for the release of an Alien film. It didn't help. Like Prometheus, I watched it again, hoping it would grow on me. It didn't.
I realize this, coming from someone who defends the Alien Vs. Predator movies, won't be a popular assessment. That's OK, it's mine and I'm just sharing it. I'll get to why I think those films, while not as well crafted, served the franchise/s better and had more passion in them.
I'm going to go through the whole plot here. If you just want to see my pros, cons and overall thoughts, skip to the end.
------------------
We start with an intriguing scene where David awakens and meets his creator, Peter Weyland for the first time. There is an interesting back and forth here between creator and creation, and it's clear that this is the theme the movie is going to be focusing on, along with David himself. The scene ends with Weyland, uncomfortable with David's line of questioning, requesting for tea right next to him as a power play. I suppose this is the beginning of David's daddy issues.
Really this movie should have been called David: Covenant.
Skip ahead 10 years after Prometheus and we're with the Covenant, a colonization ship, on its long journey to the planet Origae 6. The ship, its solar sails extended is impacted by a random neutrino burst. Walter awakens the crew, and James Franco's character, Captian Branson remains in his pod. Something is clearly wrong with his pod and before long the inside of it bursts into flames, killing him. This was the first part of the movie I was a bit confused by. You would think, due to rank, Walter would be awakening him first. The pod did not look particularly damaged, and they don't build these things with emergency releases?
In any case, the religious character, Oram, assumes command and is uneasy with his perceptions of the crew judging him.
I enjoyed the scene with the characters repairing the damaged ship, we get some really good views of the Covenant ship, as well as the impressive, practically built and moebius inspired spacesuits. Also, seeing a scene straight from Alien, where they eject their dead crew-member's body out of an airlock and into space was a bit of a treat.
As they are about to depart they receive a transmission. A ghostly image who is singing. Tennessee recognizes the song. I guess John Denver is still pretty well known a century from now? Walter, the android on the ship with the same look of David, is logical, straightforward, and yet subtly compassionate. I like him as a character.
They track the transmission to its source on a nearby planet, much closer than their terraforming destination. Oram decides they should check it out as it could potentially be a better candidate for their colony. This alone would be a bad reason and I'm glad they decided to throw in the "This is a human transmission and we're obligated to investigate" bit. Daniels, our female main character, calls this out as a bad idea.
After descending through the stormy atmosphere to the planet's surface, a scene that had distant vibes of the dropship descent in Aliens, they land on the edge of a lake and begin their trek. They have no protective suits, or procedure for an initial walk-around.
Even the astronauts in Prometheus were not that stupid.
Yes they mention the atmospheric contents but like any new planet landed on, you would think initial pathogen tests would need to be made. Space truckers were more concerned with decontamination and quarantine.
Eventually they come across the crashed ship that Shaw and David used to escape LV-223. I had to admit, their reaction to coming across a ship of potential Alien origin was pretty subdued. We see spores infecting a couple crew members. One puts his damn face in it, pokes it, and notices it release. He doesn't think to tell anyone he might be infected once he starts showing symptoms, a la Holloway in Prometheus. They find the origin of the signal and realize that Shaw and David were aboard the ship. Once two characters get sick they rush their way back to the lander.
Two people make it back first, one infected, one accompanying him. They get to the lander and Karine begs for Farris' help. They go to the medbay, Faris proceeds to lock them in, afraid of an outbreak (even though it wouldn't matter as her face had just been sprayed with blood). Karine realizes something emerging after... hugging a potentially infected guy? She begs Farris to open the door. Farris, in a panic, leaves again, runs to grab a weapon. The Neomorph emerges, I guess it's called the bloodburster for this one. Immediately Karine kicks it back, it viciously attacks her and tears her face up. Farris proceeds to open the door, slip on the bloody floor and shoot the ceiling, crawl back out the door, breaking her foot upon it closing. The bloodburster, the one that was just kicked into the wall a moment earlier proceeds to BREAK THE GLASS on the bulkhead door. Farris shoots around the room in a panic, hitting some tanks and blowing up the lander.
The other bloodburster emerges from the throat of the other victim. I'm not using their names because these two people have not been established as characters, so I really don't care what is happening to them other than seeing the thrilling gore of it. The Neomorph comes back LITERALLY SECONDS LATER, NEARLY FULLY GROWN. They shoot at the Neomorph as it takes off Walter's hand. David comes in and fires a flare, I guess the Neomorphs don't like light too much as they scurry off.
David leads them to the Engineer "Necropolis," which like with the Juggernaut, the group seems awfully calm about. This looks ripped straight out of Rome, as if it's the Vatican itself. We get some Prometheus vibes here, seeing a temple like interior with large stone heads. David explains his backstory and asks a few questions of his own.
It's here where Daniels talks to Walter and says what really should have been the tagline of the film:
"Nothing here makes any sense."
Most of the second act is here. We get some intriguing conversations between Walter and David. They have a strange flute-playing scene together.
"I'll do the fingering."
At one point they walked into a garden that was Ripped straight from the Arnold Böcklin painting "Isle of the Dead." It's here where David reveals that Shaw is dead and that he loved her. Making up a story about how the Juggernaut accidentally deployed its cargo and in the confusion their ship crashed.
We see a flashback where David drops the ships deadly cargo on the Engineer city. Why? Who knows. Some glances of female engineers. This is their home planet but they all live in one city? Why were there gates confining them to the courtyard? They are an advanced space-faring race with no defenses? Lots of questions here that we've been waiting for since the end of Prometheus five years ago. If you were hoping for any satisfying answers you're out of luck. The black goo instantly mummifies them? I suppose this is another instance of it doing whatever the plot calls for.
Back to the main story, in true horror movie fashion, Rosenthal goes off on her own to "freshen up" in a dark Alien city she knows nothing about... sure. Of course the Neomorph creeps in and bites her head off. Scott apparently wants us to really get this as going forward there are three extended shots of her head floating in the water.
During this whole time the crew of the Covenant ship is trying to re-establish contact with the ground crew. There's some good tension between the three bridge crew Members, with Tennessee wanting to risk the Covenant by flying into the storm.
The acting captian, Oram walks in to find the Neomorph munching on Rosenthal's corpse. David has already arrived here and is apparently trying to gain the Neomorph's trust. It strangely stands up straight and walks over to David. Oram has had enough and kills the Neomorph with his assault rifle. David has an emotional outburst upon this, which should be a pretty big red flag to Oram. Oram demands answers and David proceeds to show him his Frankenstein lair.
It's here where we start to gain the realization that David is the creator of the Xenomorphs. Ughhhh, Why Scott? Why did you do this? No one wanted this but you. Even the most praising reviews have been tepid about this. I'll express more of my thoughts after this plot run through. David leads Oram like a lamb to the slaughter into his egg chamber and tells him to put his face in the egg. Like an idiot Oram does this and gets facehugged. Didn't see that one coming.
Again, literally moments later. the Xenomorph is bursting out, only it's not a chestburster. It's a mini-Alien that mimics David in reaching its hands out. OK, what? We go back to Walter and David, after seeing Shaw's dissected and mutated corpse. So much for any satisfying conclusion for that character from Prometheus. David goes a bit meta here and plays the theme from Prometheus on his flute. Walter has figured David out. It's here was have a strange quasi incestuous, homo-erotic kiss between both of Micheal Fassbender's characters, before David attacks Walter and disables him. We can see Walter's skin repairing itself.
The characters begin their escape of the temple and, another is facehugged for about 5 seconds before it being cut off of his face. The instantly full-grown Xenomorph shows up (eat your heart out Paul W. S. Anderson), kills one of them as the facehugged for 5 seconds other guy runs off. After David gets all creepy and rapey on Daniels, Walter shows back up and we then get a straight out of Mortal Kombat fight between the two androids. The fight cuts away.
Tennessee arrives in the cargo lander. And why again does a ship of over two thousand people only have one shuttle? "Walter" (we know who this really is) follows them out. After that it's the Xenomorph. They climb aboard as the Xenomorph also hops on. Here's that fight from the trailer we all saw. After some cat-and-mouse back and forth between Daniels and the Alien, it's instantly crunched by heavy machinery and released into pieces, in the scene after its birth. Perfect Organism indeed.
I really get the impression Scott wasn't too interested in making an Alien film here.
They make it back to the ship. Some nice shots of the Covenant in the stormy clouds around this bit, reminded me of Event Horizon. Daniels repairs "Walter's" face, (I thought his skin was self repairing?). David really had time to cut his hand off and do his hair just right so that she wouldn't recognize him up close?
After they depart, it becomes evident a Xenomorph is on the ship. I guess five seconds is enough for a facehug to be effective. And again, the Xenomorph is an adult, instantly. The other two crew members apparently thought it would be a good time to have sex in the showers, and here we get our infamous shower scene that we expected from the trailers. I was actually looking forward to this, I was hoping it would be long and disturbing, but it ends up being quick, horror-movie trope fare, which some were initially afraid of but I defended before I ended up seeing.
They lead the Xenomorph into the terraforming bay, trap it in a tractor, and attempt to blow it out of the airlock. It leaps back on the ships platform just in time to be impaled and thrust into space. Again, because we haven't seen that before.
After getting in the hypersleep pods, Daniels realizes this movie's BIG TWIST! David is pretending to be Walter. Why didn't he just play along with her conversation? The twist was ridiculous. A real twist would have been if it really had been Walter, who I ended up liking much more than David in the film. Instead, the movie went and did the ultimate cliche.
In the very weird final scene, David pukes up some tiny facehuggers encased in the same material that the human fetuses were. OK... how?
------------------
When I first walked out of the theater, I was feeling a lot like I did after Prometheus, confusion, denial. Upon reading the reviews of those both defending the film and criticizing it, and thinking upon it myself, like with Prometheus, I was left with immense frustration and disappointment.
This movie wasn't an Alien film.
Now when I criticize Scott here, I do so granting him the respect of a skilled artist and visionary. I can't deny he knows how to direct, and create beautiful scenes. But personally, I don't think any artist, or the work of any artist, is above criticism. The Martian restored some of my faith in Scott as a film maker, but that wasn't his story. It only illustrated well that Scott's strength lies in his visuals, and when he tries to get too involved in a story, it comes across as just random, pseudo-philosophical musings.
More and more I see Alien wasn't his masterpiece. It was a perfect storm of a strong director (who was still new so could only have so much creative control), the story of Dan O' Bannon and Ronald Shusset, (Both of those writers having criticisms of the direction of the franchise, including Prometheus), and the artistry of H.R. Giger and Ron Cobb. Without any of these elements, the symphony that was Alien likely wouldn't have been nearly as effective as it was.
The problem now is that Scott seems to want to be the entire symphony. Although he didn't write Prometheus and Covenant, he was deeply involved in the story and writing process. I really feel he was completely uninterested in listening to the criticisms of Prometheus, only doubling and tripling down on its flaws. I find it hard to believe, despite what Scott says on how he "listened to the fans." If he did he would have known that our problems went well beyond not seeing the Alien.
This film doesn't even grant us that much. I'm willing to bet the Alien has less screen time in this than in the original film. And even when it was not on screen in Alien, it was in the background, lurking. The threat of it was ever present. Our space trucker characters were all known to the audience, they planned, failed, made mistakes, but they were still smart. They acted how people would act. Prometheus and Covenant both threw this out the window.
There were zero creature practical effects that I could see, if there were any, they were too quick to notice. CG and Practical effects are both great tools for filmmakers to use but when you use all CGI for convenience sake, in the installment of a franchise that is known for its outstanding legacy with practical creature effects, you do it a tremendous disservice.
Scott seems intent on making David the center of the Alien universe, and I'm gonna call it now. David will be the Space Jockey.
I have to wonder if Scott is just becoming cynical.
Like Prometheus, this film ended on a semi-cliffhanger, teasing us that we will get our answers in the sequel. But we didn't get any answers to the giant questions left at the end of Prometheus, why should I wait another three to five years for the answers to this that will likely again, only raise questions and answer nothing. It is everything wrong with Hollywood these days. This movie is a corporate product, and we are to keep throwing money at it with the fleeting hope that it may satisfy, eventually.
The immense advertising and marketing campaign for Covenant was entirely dishonest.
I get the feeling Fox forced Scott to make this an Alien film, so he threw an Alien in to hardly be seen. Far more interested in Androids and philosophy, and turning everything we know on its head for the sake of doing so.
Essentially, this film ruins the mystery of the Alien in the same way Prometheus ruined the mystery of the Space Jockey. Scott said in interviews "No one bothered to ask about the man in the chair." OF COURSE WE DID, and everyone had their own answer for it. That was the beauty of the Space Jockey. It was the ultimate mystery of the Alien Universe. It's the same for the Xenomorph itself, the joy and beauty is that we didn't know where they were from or why they existed, they just were, because space is weird. Hence the name "Alien."
Is it really an "Alien" if it's just the result of an insane android? And for those who never liked the idea of Cameron's Aliens as bugs, David LITERALLY USES BUGS TO CREATE THE XENOMORPH.
I'm tempted to just agree with Dan O'Bannon when he said about the Alien subsequent films:
"I'd like to see it stop. A horror movie's a fragile thing, and once you've gotten past the original, it isn't scary anymore. So you do a bunch of sequels to a horror movie, all they do is drain any remaining impact out of the original. All of the sequels to for instance Invasion Of The Bodysnatchers, same thing; they over-expose the ideas, and when you look at the original, it's not as effective as it would have been if you had just left it alone."
But no, I do think the Alien has lasting power as a franchise, and sometimes you can have too much studio questioning of a director as seemed to be the case with Alien³. But I think Scott is engaged in the Lucas effect here. His reputation is a double edged sword that he's surrounded by yes-men, none of whom would ever have the balls to say "I think this might not be the best idea, Ridley."
For those who were complaining about Neil Blomkamp's Alien film retconning the series, what do you think Scott is doing? Honestly, the franchise is so expansive is convoluted now that I think it would be best to just do away with canon. Have the films be like the Comics, they all tell their own stories in their own universes. Neil even said he didn't want to diminish Alien³ or Resurrection with his film, and yet, Scott wanted to make sure nothing Neil did interfered with his. It seems Scott is intent to keep this franchise to himself, I only hope someone higher at Fox will realize that it may be time to let other creatives have their shots, some who will treat the Xenomorph with the respect it deserves.
While Covenant may have been well crafted from a technical standpoint, what anyone would expect from a Ridley Scott film, it didn't seem to have to passion and respect for the Alien that even the AVP films had. Those knew what they were, they were comic book / video game style movies that added to the mythos, without stepping on the toes of any of the other films.
Covenant takes away from the franchise, making countless expanded universe stories and fan speculations invalid in favor of the worst possible explanation for the origin of the Xenomorph. One so bad, I don't remember any fan thinking of it before Covenant, which is unfortunately, likely exactly why Scott wanted to go for it. The beauty of the Alien is in its simplicity and its mystery, that's where its elegance lies. You turn it into a mutant experiment and you've essentially made Alien go full Resident Evil.
Although I was more receptive to the ideas of Spaiths' script for an Alien Prequel, these films have made me realize that the Alien series should not have prequels. They undermine the most important elements of the Xenomorph and Space Jockey, their mystery. That's the kind of mystery that's good. Mystery that is in the background and serves the plot, not mystery that the plot hinges upon. The mystery that we see in Prometheus and Covenant is just lazy storytelling, lazy screenwriting, and misses the point of Alien. You're going to make Prometheus on the premise of exploring the Engineers, and then go nowhere with it? What? Prometheus is essentially pointless now and Alien Covenant was just one giant detour to pick up David and wonder what he'll do next.
My former film teacher put it nicely: Prometheus was a noble failure, Covenant just fails.
Ok, I gotta stop myself, I'm venting now. so here's the TLDR for anyone who just scrolled to the bottom.
PROS:
-Good production design, cool spaceship, suits, and sets.
-Characters were more human and likable than in Prometheus. Really enjoyed Tennessee.
-Gory and brutal
-Interesting conversations with David, although excessive
-The music was a well done throwback to the original, like Predators had.
CONS:
-No satisfying answers to Prometheus
-Poor character development
-People making even less intelligent decisions than in Prometheus
-Completely screwed up lifecycle.
-Almost no Alien, no practical effects, both times it's dispatched quickly by the crew.
-Obsession with android pseudo-philosophy.
-Leaves us waiting for a sequel, again.
-Ruins the mystery of the Xenomorph
-Most predictable twist ever.
-Like Prometheus, seemingly doesn't know what it wants to be.
WHY?:
-Why did David release the the pathogen on the Engineer city?
-Why were the pathogen's effects on the Engineers different than what we saw in Prometheus?
-Why did David kill Shaw?
-How did David create the Xenomorphs?
-Why did the Juggernaut crash?
-Why do the engineers, an advanced space-faring civilization, only live in one city where giant gates trap them in the courtyard?
-If David creates the Xenomorphs, why were they alluded to in multiple murals in Prometheus?
-Still waiting to know why the Engineers wanted to kill us or what those maps in caves were about.
-David couldn't repair the Juggernaut with all his newfound knowledge of the Engineers?
Final Score: 5/10
AVP3, Alien 5, and The Predator can't come soon enough.
Alan Dean Foster has his work cut out for him.
ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT review... You managed to put into words all the feelings I had towards (and against) this movie... It has become quite apparent that Fox just wants to milk this franchise and the fans, and all the asinine ideas put in this movie in unnecessary prequels, especially this one, that unnecessarily link to ALIEN, are sheer proof that they are just throwing stuff at walls and see what sticks... This movie was butchered both in editing, and in detaching itself as much as possible from the previous movie it was a sequel to... Ridley is actually a very good director but not on Alien anymore... He made the best one, the original, more than 35 years ago, but now he is just weighing it down with forced existential, religious babble into a saga that required none... The SpaceJockey, the Xenos, were mysterious and ought to have remained as such especially regarding their origins... Dan O'Bannon was spot on in that quote of yours, that the original movie did not require sequels nor prequels... But Hollywood loves to milk to the bone singular successes and turn it into cash flows on the backs of fans of the original like you and me and everyone here...
Lol yeah, one film in 5 years is definitely milking it.
Well i've just watched tne movie. Oh boy. What can I say.
I HATED it. abso-f**king-lutely hated it.
Here's why.
Let me deal with the good firstly.
What i did like about the movie;
I liked the visual work. I loved how the Covenant looked, i loved how the Derelict looked, I love how the city looked.
I liked Fassbender's roles. It was interesting to see him as both David and Walter, and it was even more interesting to see them fighting.
Honestly, that's it. And that's really the problem here.
I was SO hyped for this movie. I think i haven't been more disappointed in any movie ever period.
This had all the possibilities to be grand, magnificient. It was completely empty and forgettable.
Where to begin?
Well, first of all, the loss of captain was an interesting start but executed very, very bad. Like the hibernation pod was a absolute
gold-bank safehouse, completely shut, and a fire is able to house there. There was no oxygen, and the small amount of oxygen that
might have been there is in no way capable of causing such a blazing fire that went - nowhere. it came from nowhere, it burnt nothing
but the inhabitant, and the pod itself kept intact. it was silly beyond words, and vastly not believable. Its also rather rediculous that the
pod simply didn't open as a failsafe. Above all, the entire act/scene was unneccesary. You could have had franco as the captain throughout
the movie, or simply never ever have had him there in the first place and have oram there and that's it. it added zero.
It only gave way for the end 'shock' reveal that wasnt a shock at all.
then picking up the signal was clumsy too. why have the crewmember accidentally pick it up? Why even have the 'blocker' on the ship at all?
Simply have the ship recieve the signal and period. it was unneccesary.
The approach stuff was ok. Then they set out to check out on the planet. Oram behaved weird without reason imho. The seedpod infection was
clumsy and executed poorly. Why not simply have him infected and when getting infected feel a pain in the ear.
and really, the gay guy pushes his face in and sniffs up the stuff? what was that all about.
matter of fact, david later explains that all non-botanical stuff died from the pathogen. then explain how some seedpod is an alien-like infecting hazard?
there could have been a great moment in regards to the crashed ship.but it was forgettable at best. there could and should have been much more there, there wasn't. the infected guy trampling was acted lousy af. i was also highly annoyed with them able to communicate with the outside.
during alien and aliens, there was ZERO ability to communicate when they were in the derelict, despite having technology decades newer.
the backbursting scene was vastly underwhelming. the scratch her to death scene was silly. the keep shooting like a dumbass scene was well...dumb.
the grass fighting scene was chaotic and hard to follow, walter saving daniels was interesting but didnt add much.
the david appearance scene was cool. the scene walking in between the dead corpses could have been fcking amazing but was really left too much without attention. lot of missed potential there.
the david-walter scene was good though. i liked it.
the storytelling of what happened was ok, but could have been fcking epic. that scene of the juggernaut approaching was very interesting and visually fantastic. the vase dropping was insanely cool, but it all passed so slow and really without sufficient context that it actually was forgettable. what a waste. the 'engineer' death scene was clumsy and not at all morbid or unnerving.
also, there was NOTHING of story there. so much potential, so much to get from the civilization - NOTHING. absolutely nothing.
i also reall missed the prologue part, it should have been in there and would have done a lot more. Shaw was really not at all in the movie.
the grown neomorph approaching looked odd moving about. it killing the girl washing her face was really crappy. it looked messy and odd,
and her head fully intact floating around in the sink was stupid and again, unneccesary.
it was eating her corpse but it didnt do anything etiher.
i think it would have been much more interesting if it would have wrapped its tail around her leg, grabbed her from behind so she couldnt move, and then did something bad to her would have been better, and then eating from her, though i must say i fail to see what that added at all to it all (the eating).
it looked very fake when standing in front of david. i dont get why nothing happened. oram gave it a good treatment though, it was interesting watching david's response though, but then it was absolutely crap how oram followed him.
after watching what happened, he should have called for backup immediately and definately not follow david and trusting his every word.
david throwing rocks at oram was amateurish too, childish. it did nothing but show a brat like annoyed, bored behaviour instead of a calculated in control machinal psychopath with a motive.
the other guys then getting in contact with the facehugger that was removed way too easily, also the facehugger moved way too fluently. then the sudden xeno reveal. that could have been magnificient, but it somehow only looked like it was a really big, really heavy black thing like some alien panther.
walter then discovering what david did was interesting. the shaw discovery was interesting, but it could have been so, so so much more it was like just some random thing, whilst it was the main character of the past movie. judging by her open belly, we can assume david used her for the egg stuff so there should have been gigantic stuff there. nothign. nothing explained in a worthwile way, not even the many different neomorphs.
how did they come about? from animals? from the engineers? no story, nothing. a standing disected engineer. nothing.
so much material, so little done with it.
the fight was great, i really thought he was gone (walter) but this was fantastic. a great battle. unfortunately, it was COMPLETELY obvious that when walter should have terminated david, that david was going to win in the end.
especially when later on seeing 'walter' and how he behaved.
the transporter vehicle scene then on the other hand took ages and how it ended the life of the xeno was really really lame and disappointing. especially that it maintained intact, simply just lightly smoking. jeesh.
then we get the point that 'mother' was offline. i was seriously expecting the scene that they were playing cards - nothing of that.
then we get to the point that daniels gets called awake by mother.
they then discover the remains of the guy that had the facehugger, so the facehugger must have actually dumped its embryo.
and there's a huge problem too. with oram, it took a few minutes at best, perhaps 15 or 30 tops before it emerged.
also, that scene in particular was annoying. oram was way too conscious, it got out before he really noticed, and then it exited with legs, tail, arms all intact. completely different to it's original snake-like origin, and oram was wayy too long in spasms or alive. and it responding to david was above all nonsensical. but anyway, with oram, it took a few minutes. in this case it took HOURS and HOURS. it took a serious amount of time after the facehugging scene before getting aboard the transporter ship, then it took a serious amount of time before the transporter ship ditched the alien and docked with the covenant, then they all had chats and stuff, daniels put some stuff on his face to 'lap him up', she then later on starts baking eggs or something, and then goes to bed, and was good asleep before getting a unidentified lifeform warning.
it took way too long before the alien popped.
then the shower scene was also lame. it was for a minute interesting to see what happened to the guy, but the girl should have runned for dear life. nope.
massacred like a bish, and no red lights nothing. you're under the shower? you're gonna miss getting notified there's a meteor going to hit the ship and you need to get to a safe haven. what bs.
then the monitor facebiting scene was.....well....i dont know, what it added. the stairway crawling scene was clumsy, it LOOKED like it's back dorsals simply clipped, it didnt, but it looked like that and i think that's a bit crappy to be honest.
i never really saw the alien in full decent glory. daniels outran it somehow. it was also easily trapped in the truck, really unbelievable.
the audi commercial showed it crawiling on the cieling '4 meters above you', looked great, never saw that.
why didnt the alien or daniels get sucked into space when the door went open?
how on earth did the alien 'jump back' out of thin air towards daniels? the alien got so unlucky that he got hit by the spikes of the truck, and daniels simply ducked and thats it? nah men.
we all knew it was david btw instead of walter because of his emotional behaviour.
the scene of daniels geting put into cryo was ok, i liked the hush scene but it really ended tennessee and daniels fate rather grim and empty, and made all their hard work for nothing - just like what happened to shaw, really.
the scene where david vomits some transparent tiny facehugger pills was bs too. really? what the.
this movie was underwhelming and i understand why it does less then prometheus right now. its a enormeous disappointment.
Alien Covenant is all about interesting and bizarre ways, and I am deeply shocked to hear how people got stuck in pitiful things. What is the black glue? Why does the alien have shorter incubation periods? I think these questions are meaningless. These are part of the story, but the real thing is, how one mistake leads to another. David, as a soulless being not able to understand the main concept of greatness. In his point of view an indestructible xenomorph is much like a musical Instruments of fine art. Because he is soulless (imperfect) generally doesnt understand the concept of real art, his point of view is; a plastic bag, an artificial womb built by science can produce higher entities. Because in his mind, perfection equal imortality and invulnerability. Imortality and invulnerability does not equal perfection. David stuck at the level of material (practical) thinking, He is nothing more than an imperfect creation of industrial mechanism much like the xenomorph itself.
The false idea of perfect human creation always leads us to blaspheme against the holy spirit. Leads us to what we can call...ALIEN.
Quote from: Snake on May 21, 2017, 09:10:15 PM
Yes there are probably hidden messages with the gay flute lessons and the rest of the mumbo jumbo but the core element of the franchise (the Alien) sucked. Except for the Beluga Alien attacking that pretty chick in the caves (something that got my hopes up in the movie only to be let down again on the next scene with David talking to it and the way it tried to run away when the dumb commander started firing at it, damn that looked like sh!t)....arghhhhhbh
Hey man, I'm not saying you aren't allowed to dislike it. Fine by me. But hoping that the movie won't do well at the box office and we wouldn't get a sequel because of that is another thing. And I wouldn't take the ratings on IMDB too serieus, as they are the complete opposite of the poll on this site, where all the alien and predator fans are.
And the CGI looked great and there was still a guy in a suit, but obviously you missed that.
[/quote]
True, I hope it does well at the box office, ratings usually don't lie I said, but obviously you missed that; And if you liked the CGI you must be under 14 yrs old, which is fine.
Quote from: RidgeTop on May 21, 2017, 08:31:17 AM
This is going to be ranty, but I attempted to be as fair as I could in my own personal assessment and refrain from bitching. I'm putting it in a spoiler tag to save everyone the wall of text.
I personally give the movie a five out of ten. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about it, and this "you're not a true fan" business is silly. Anyone can be a true fan and like or dislike the film.
Spoiler
Alien: Covenant review, oh boy, here we go...
I'll be really impressed if anyone makes it through all of this.
I just got back from my second viewing, wanted to give it another chance before finalizing my opinion.
These are my opinions, my speculations, and my frustrations, I'm just sharing my thoughts here and I don't expect anyone to agree with me. It is worth seeing, and anyone who is interested in it should make up their own mind. If you liked the movie, great! I wish I could.
Alien: Covenant is a bad film.
Not only is it a bad film, it's a bad Alien Prequel, and it's a bad Prometheus Sequel.
It's my least favorite of them all, out of any of the Alien, Predator, or Alien Vs. Predator movies. I like it less than Prometheus.
It brings me no pleasure to say this or have this opinion, anyone who knows me will know I was excited for this movie and wanted it to be great. However, I knew after Prometheus and from some of the rumors I was hearing that my expectations should be measured, so I made sure to keep them as low as I could for the release of an Alien film. It didn't help. Like Prometheus, I watched it again, hoping it would grow on me. It didn't.
I realize this, coming from someone who defends the Alien Vs. Predator movies, won't be a popular assessment. That's OK, it's mine and I'm just sharing it. I'll get to why I think those films, while not as well crafted, served the franchise/s better and had more passion in them.
I'm going to go through the whole plot here. If you just want to see my pros, cons and overall thoughts, skip to the end.
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We start with an intriguing scene where David awakens and meets his creator, Peter Weyland for the first time. There is an interesting back and forth here between creator and creation, and it's clear that this is the theme the movie is going to be focusing on, along with David himself. The scene ends with Weyland, uncomfortable with David's line of questioning, requesting for tea right next to him as a power play. I suppose this is the beginning of David's daddy issues.
Really this movie should have been called David: Covenant.
Skip ahead 10 years after Prometheus and we're with the Covenant, a colonization ship, on its long journey to the planet Origae 6. The ship, its solar sails extended is impacted by a random neutrino burst. Walter awakens the crew, and James Franco's character, Captian Branson remains in his pod. Something is clearly wrong with his pod and before long the inside of it bursts into flames, killing him. This was the first part of the movie I was a bit confused by. You would think, due to rank, Walter would be awakening him first. The pod did not look particularly damaged, and they don't build these things with emergency releases?
In any case, the religious character, Oram, assumes command and is uneasy with his perceptions of the crew judging him.
I enjoyed the scene with the characters repairing the damaged ship, we get some really good views of the Covenant ship, as well as the impressive, practically built and moebius inspired spacesuits. Also, seeing a scene straight from Alien, where they eject their dead crew-member's body out of an airlock and into space was a bit of a treat.
As they are about to depart they receive a transmission. A ghostly image who is singing. Tennessee recognizes the song. I guess John Denver is still pretty well known a century from now? Walter, the android on the ship with the same look of David, is logical, straightforward, and yet subtly compassionate. I like him as a character.
They track the transmission to its source on a nearby planet, much closer than their terraforming destination. Oram decides they should check it out as it could potentially be a better candidate for their colony. This alone would be a bad reason and I'm glad they decided to throw in the "This is a human transmission and we're obligated to investigate" bit. Daniels, our female main character, calls this out as a bad idea.
After descending through the stormy atmosphere to the planet's surface, a scene that had distant vibes of the dropship descent in Aliens, they land on the edge of a lake and begin their trek. They have no protective suits, or procedure for an initial walk-around.
Even the astronauts in Prometheus were not that stupid.
Yes they mention the atmospheric contents but like any new planet landed on, you would think initial pathogen tests would need to be made. Space truckers were more concerned with decontamination and quarantine.
Eventually they come across the crashed ship that Shaw and David used to escape LV-223. I had to admit, their reaction to coming across a ship of potential Alien origin was pretty subdued. We see spores infecting a couple crew members. One puts his damn face in it, pokes it, and notices it release. He doesn't think to tell anyone he might be infected once he starts showing symptoms, a la Holloway in Prometheus. They find the origin of the signal and realize that Shaw and David were aboard the ship. Once two characters get sick they rush their way back to the lander.
Two people make it back first, one infected, one accompanying him. They get to the lander and Karine begs for Farris' help. They go to the medbay, Faris proceeds to lock them in, afraid of an outbreak (even though it wouldn't matter as her face had just been sprayed with blood). Karine realizes something emerging after... hugging a potentially infected guy? She begs Farris to open the door. Farris, in a panic, leaves again, runs to grab a weapon. The Neomorph emerges, I guess it's called the bloodburster for this one. Immediately Karine kicks it back, it viciously attacks her and tears her face up. Farris proceeds to open the door, slip on the bloody floor and shoot the ceiling, crawl back out the door, breaking her foot upon it closing. The bloodburster, the one that was just kicked into the wall a moment earlier proceeds to BREAK THE GLASS on the bulkhead door. Farris shoots around the room in a panic, hitting some tanks and blowing up the lander.
The other bloodburster emerges from the throat of the other victim. I'm not using their names because these two people have not been established as characters, so I really don't care what is happening to them other than seeing the thrilling gore of it. The Neomorph comes back LITERALLY SECONDS LATER, NEARLY FULLY GROWN. They shoot at the Neomorph as it takes off Walter's hand. David comes in and fires a flare, I guess the Neomorphs don't like light too much as they scurry off.
David leads them to the Engineer "Necropolis," which like with the Juggernaut, the group seems awfully calm about. This looks ripped straight out of Rome, as if it's the Vatican itself. We get some Prometheus vibes here, seeing a temple like interior with large stone heads. David explains his backstory and asks a few questions of his own.
It's here where Daniels talks to Walter and says what really should have been the tagline of the film:
"Nothing here makes any sense."
Most of the second act is here. We get some intriguing conversations between Walter and David. They have a strange flute-playing scene together.
"I'll do the fingering."
At one point they walked into a garden that was Ripped straight from the Arnold Böcklin painting "Isle of the Dead." It's here where David reveals that Shaw is dead and that he loved her. Making up a story about how the Juggernaut accidentally deployed its cargo and in the confusion their ship crashed.
We see a flashback where David drops the ships deadly cargo on the Engineer city. Why? Who knows. Some glances of female engineers. This is their home planet but they all live in one city? Why were there gates confining them to the courtyard? They are an advanced space-faring race with no defenses? Lots of questions here that we've been waiting for since the end of Prometheus five years ago. If you were hoping for any satisfying answers you're out of luck. The black goo instantly mummifies them? I suppose this is another instance of it doing whatever the plot calls for.
Back to the main story, in true horror movie fashion, Rosenthal goes off on her own to "freshen up" in a dark Alien city she knows nothing about... sure. Of course the Neomorph creeps in and bites her head off. Scott apparently wants us to really get this as going forward there are three extended shots of her head floating in the water.
During this whole time the crew of the Covenant ship is trying to re-establish contact with the ground crew. There's some good tension between the three bridge crew Members, with Tennessee wanting to risk the Covenant by flying into the storm.
The acting captian, Oram walks in to find the Neomorph munching on Rosenthal's corpse. David has already arrived here and is apparently trying to gain the Neomorph's trust. It strangely stands up straight and walks over to David. Oram has had enough and kills the Neomorph with his assault rifle. David has an emotional outburst upon this, which should be a pretty big red flag to Oram. Oram demands answers and David proceeds to show him his Frankenstein lair.
It's here where we start to gain the realization that David is the creator of the Xenomorphs. Ughhhh, Why Scott? Why did you do this? No one wanted this but you. Even the most praising reviews have been tepid about this. I'll express more of my thoughts after this plot run through. David leads Oram like a lamb to the slaughter into his egg chamber and tells him to put his face in the egg. Like an idiot Oram does this and gets facehugged. Didn't see that one coming.
Again, literally moments later. the Xenomorph is bursting out, only it's not a chestburster. It's a mini-Alien that mimics David in reaching its hands out. OK, what? We go back to Walter and David, after seeing Shaw's dissected and mutated corpse. So much for any satisfying conclusion for that character from Prometheus. David goes a bit meta here and plays the theme from Prometheus on his flute. Walter has figured David out. It's here was have a strange quasi incestuous, homo-erotic kiss between both of Micheal Fassbender's characters, before David attacks Walter and disables him. We can see Walter's skin repairing itself.
The characters begin their escape of the temple and, another is facehugged for about 5 seconds before it being cut off of his face. The instantly full-grown Xenomorph shows up (eat your heart out Paul W. S. Anderson), kills one of them as the facehugged for 5 seconds other guy runs off. After David gets all creepy and rapey on Daniels, Walter shows back up and we then get a straight out of Mortal Kombat fight between the two androids. The fight cuts away.
Tennessee arrives in the cargo lander. And why again does a ship of over two thousand people only have one shuttle? "Walter" (we know who this really is) follows them out. After that it's the Xenomorph. They climb aboard as the Xenomorph also hops on. Here's that fight from the trailer we all saw. After some cat-and-mouse back and forth between Daniels and the Alien, it's instantly crunched by heavy machinery and released into pieces, in the scene after its birth. Perfect Organism indeed.
I really get the impression Scott wasn't too interested in making an Alien film here.
They make it back to the ship. Some nice shots of the Covenant in the stormy clouds around this bit, reminded me of Event Horizon. Daniels repairs "Walter's" face, (I thought his skin was self repairing?). David really had time to cut his hand off and do his hair just right so that she wouldn't recognize him up close?
After they depart, it becomes evident a Xenomorph is on the ship. I guess five seconds is enough for a facehug to be effective. And again, the Xenomorph is an adult, instantly. The other two crew members apparently thought it would be a good time to have sex in the showers, and here we get our infamous shower scene that we expected from the trailers. I was actually looking forward to this, I was hoping it would be long and disturbing, but it ends up being quick, horror-movie trope fare, which some were initially afraid of but I defended before I ended up seeing.
They lead the Xenomorph into the terraforming bay, trap it in a tractor, and attempt to blow it out of the airlock. It leaps back on the ships platform just in time to be impaled and thrust into space. Again, because we haven't seen that before.
After getting in the hypersleep pods, Daniels realizes this movie's BIG TWIST! David is pretending to be Walter. Why didn't he just play along with her conversation? The twist was ridiculous. A real twist would have been if it really had been Walter, who I ended up liking much more than David in the film. Instead, the movie went and did the ultimate cliche.
In the very weird final scene, David pukes up some tiny facehuggers encased in the same material that the human fetuses were. OK... how?
------------------
When I first walked out of the theater, I was feeling a lot like I did after Prometheus, confusion, denial. Upon reading the reviews of those both defending the film and criticizing it, and thinking upon it myself, like with Prometheus, I was left with immense frustration and disappointment.
This movie wasn't an Alien film.
Now when I criticize Scott here, I do so granting him the respect of a skilled artist and visionary. I can't deny he knows how to direct, and create beautiful scenes. But personally, I don't think any artist, or the work of any artist, is above criticism. The Martian restored some of my faith in Scott as a film maker, but that wasn't his story. It only illustrated well that Scott's strength lies in his visuals, and when he tries to get too involved in a story, it comes across as just random, pseudo-philosophical musings.
More and more I see Alien wasn't his masterpiece. It was a perfect storm of a strong director (who was still new so could only have so much creative control), the story of Dan O' Bannon and Ronald Shusset, (Both of those writers having criticisms of the direction of the franchise, including Prometheus), and the artistry of H.R. Giger and Ron Cobb. Without any of these elements, the symphony that was Alien likely wouldn't have been nearly as effective as it was.
The problem now is that Scott seems to want to be the entire symphony. Although he didn't write Prometheus and Covenant, he was deeply involved in the story and writing process. I really feel he was completely uninterested in listening to the criticisms of Prometheus, only doubling and tripling down on its flaws. I find it hard to believe, despite what Scott says on how he "listened to the fans." If he did he would have known that our problems went well beyond not seeing the Alien.
This film doesn't even grant us that much. I'm willing to bet the Alien has less screen time in this than in the original film. And even when it was not on screen in Alien, it was in the background, lurking. The threat of it was ever present. Our space trucker characters were all known to the audience, they planned, failed, made mistakes, but they were still smart. They acted how people would act. Prometheus and Covenant both threw this out the window.
There were zero creature practical effects that I could see, if there were any, they were too quick to notice. CG and Practical effects are both great tools for filmmakers to use but when you use all CGI for convenience sake, in the installment of a franchise that is known for its outstanding legacy with practical creature effects, you do it a tremendous disservice.
Scott seems intent on making David the center of the Alien universe, and I'm gonna call it now. David will be the Space Jockey.
I have to wonder if Scott is just becoming cynical.
Like Prometheus, this film ended on a semi-cliffhanger, teasing us that we will get our answers in the sequel. But we didn't get any answers to the giant questions left at the end of Prometheus, why should I wait another three to five years for the answers to this that will likely again, only raise questions and answer nothing. It is everything wrong with Hollywood these days. This movie is a corporate product, and we are to keep throwing money at it with the fleeting hope that it may satisfy, eventually.
The immense advertising and marketing campaign for Covenant was entirely dishonest.
I get the feeling Fox forced Scott to make this an Alien film, so he threw an Alien in to hardly be seen. Far more interested in Androids and philosophy, and turning everything we know on its head for the sake of doing so.
Essentially, this film ruins the mystery of the Alien in the same way Prometheus ruined the mystery of the Space Jockey. Scott said in interviews "No one bothered to ask about the man in the chair." OF COURSE WE DID, and everyone had their own answer for it. That was the beauty of the Space Jockey. It was the ultimate mystery of the Alien Universe. It's the same for the Xenomorph itself, the joy and beauty is that we didn't know where they were from or why they existed, they just were, because space is weird. Hence the name "Alien."
Is it really an "Alien" if it's just the result of an insane android? And for those who never liked the idea of Cameron's Aliens as bugs, David LITERALLY USES BUGS TO CREATE THE XENOMORPH.
I'm tempted to just agree with Dan O'Bannon when he said about the Alien subsequent films:
"I'd like to see it stop. A horror movie's a fragile thing, and once you've gotten past the original, it isn't scary anymore. So you do a bunch of sequels to a horror movie, all they do is drain any remaining impact out of the original. All of the sequels to for instance Invasion Of The Bodysnatchers, same thing; they over-expose the ideas, and when you look at the original, it's not as effective as it would have been if you had just left it alone."
But no, I do think the Alien has lasting power as a franchise, and sometimes you can have too much studio questioning of a director as seemed to be the case with Alien³. But I think Scott is engaged in the Lucas effect here. His reputation is a double edged sword that he's surrounded by yes-men, none of whom would ever have the balls to say "I think this might not be the best idea, Ridley."
For those who were complaining about Neil Blomkamp's Alien film retconning the series, what do you think Scott is doing? Honestly, the franchise is so expansive is convoluted now that I think it would be best to just do away with canon. Have the films be like the Comics, they all tell their own stories in their own universes. Neil even said he didn't want to diminish Alien³ or Resurrection with his film, and yet, Scott wanted to make sure nothing Neil did interfered with his. It seems Scott is intent to keep this franchise to himself, I only hope someone higher at Fox will realize that it may be time to let other creatives have their shots, some who will treat the Xenomorph with the respect it deserves.
While Covenant may have been well crafted from a technical standpoint, what anyone would expect from a Ridley Scott film, it didn't seem to have to passion and respect for the Alien that even the AVP films had. Those knew what they were, they were comic book / video game style movies that added to the mythos, without stepping on the toes of any of the other films.
Covenant takes away from the franchise, making countless expanded universe stories and fan speculations invalid in favor of the worst possible explanation for the origin of the Xenomorph. One so bad, I don't remember any fan thinking of it before Covenant, which is unfortunately, likely exactly why Scott wanted to go for it. The beauty of the Alien is in its simplicity and its mystery, that's where its elegance lies. You turn it into a mutant experiment and you've essentially made Alien go full Resident Evil.
Although I was more receptive to the ideas of Spaiths' script for an Alien Prequel, these films have made me realize that the Alien series should not have prequels. They undermine the most important elements of the Xenomorph and Space Jockey, their mystery. That's the kind of mystery that's good. Mystery that is in the background and serves the plot, not mystery that the plot hinges upon. The mystery that we see in Prometheus and Covenant is just lazy storytelling, lazy screenwriting, and misses the point of Alien. You're going to make Prometheus on the premise of exploring the Engineers, and then go nowhere with it? What? Prometheus is essentially pointless now and Alien Covenant was just one giant detour to pick up David and wonder what he'll do next.
My former film teacher put it nicely: Prometheus was a noble failure, Covenant just fails.
Ok, I gotta stop myself, I'm venting now. so here's the TLDR for anyone who just scrolled to the bottom.
PROS:
-Good production design, cool spaceship, suits, and sets.
-Characters were more human and likable than in Prometheus. Really enjoyed Tennessee.
-Gory and brutal
-Interesting conversations with David, although excessive
-The music was a well done throwback to the original, like Predators had.
CONS:
-No satisfying answers to Prometheus
-Poor character development
-People making even less intelligent decisions than in Prometheus
-Completely screwed up lifecycle.
-Almost no Alien, no practical effects, both times it's dispatched quickly by the crew.
-Obsession with android pseudo-philosophy.
-Leaves us waiting for a sequel, again.
-Ruins the mystery of the Xenomorph
-Most predictable twist ever.
-Like Prometheus, seemingly doesn't know what it wants to be.
WHY?:
-Why did David release the the pathogen on the Engineer city?
-Why were the pathogen's effects on the Engineers different than what we saw in Prometheus?
-Why did David kill Shaw?
-How did David create the Xenomorphs?
-Why did the Juggernaut crash?
-Why do the engineers, an advanced space-faring civilization, only live in one city where giant gates trap them in the courtyard?
-If David creates the Xenomorphs, why were they alluded to in multiple murals in Prometheus?
-Still waiting to know why the Engineers wanted to kill us or what those maps in caves were about.
-David couldn't repair the Juggernaut with all his newfound knowledge of the Engineers?
Final Score: 5/10
AVP3, Alien 5, and The Predator can't come soon enough.
Alan Dean Foster has his work cut out for him.
Holy ^%$#, this review by Ridgetop has restored my faith in humanity and his IQ. I'm very pleased I'm not the only fan who sees all the stuff mentioned in the review! Holy crap what a review, that's exactly what I would right if I could lol. You must be either ignorant, a fanboy who eats hay in the morning for cereal, dumb, or just simply have a low IQ not to spot all the points mentioned in Ridgetop's review....
The "mini alien" was the most WTF and weirdest, most awkward thing of the whole movie :/
Quote from: Magegg on May 22, 2017, 12:12:15 AM
The "mini alien" was the most WTF and weirdest, most awkward thing of the whole movie :/
It acted like an adorable kitten. That was not helped by the fact that I just watched
Keanu last night. :laugh:
After many months/years of waiting I finally got to see Covenant too.
First to say I am big fan of Franchise; when asked about "top 5 movies I've seen in my life" I always put original Alien in. That being said, my initial reaction getting out of theater after watching Covenant was mild to moderate disappointment.
Positives
- Fasbender. Absolutely brilliant. Both as David and Walter
- Visuals. Some stunning scenes, including solar sail recharge after the storm
- Ending. Although Walter/David switch was expected, it was still so unnerving --and refreshing-- to have cliffhanger and no happy ending
- Neomorph! Specially young one, as it just has bursted out and starts rampaging right away. Stunning!
Negatives
- Many naive, hard to believe plot lines much talked about elsewhere (i.e. getting out in new planet without space suites ??). For me the biggest one is though Engineers; Advanced Race that created humanity, now lives medieval lifestyle and just allows to get wiped out in a snap, without any protection??? Come on
- Shaw. SHAW!! Was this really necessary?? So many better ways to continue or even end her story. HUGE disappointment
- Capetan Orem -- absolutely brutal, plot, decisions, acting, etc.
- Characters way too undeveloped, with only purpose to be the "meat" for Neomorphs / Xenomorps
- Xenomorph in last 1/4 of the movie -- entirely unnecessary; much better to focus whole movie on Neomorph IMHO. Shower scene -- totally out of place
- Pace is way too fast in 2nd half of the movie. Xenomorph becomes adult in matter of minutes. Whole feeling of terror/unknown that just blows you out in original Alien is now completely lost
- ,.. several other, less serious ones ...
Maybe it was just the case of waiting too long, or knowing too much from AvP site, etc.
Overall, I give it 5 out of 10. I thought Prometheus was way better (I am sure I am in minority here!). Shaw story should have been continued. I still hope Covenant does well & we get to see the Awakening and how certain lose ends tie up.
My list is:
- Alien
- Aliens
- Prometheus
- Alien 3
- Alien Covenant
- Alien versus Predator
- Alien Resurrection
Quote from: Magegg on May 22, 2017, 12:12:15 AM
The "mini alien" was the most WTF and weirdest, most awkward thing of the whole movie :/
While that was weird, I'd say David kissing Walter has it beat.
Quote from: Engineer on May 22, 2017, 12:21:44 AM
Quote from: Magegg on May 22, 2017, 12:12:15 AM
The "mini alien" was the most WTF and weirdest, most awkward thing of the whole movie :/
While that was weird, I'd say David kissing Walter has it beat.
Considering Scott's continuous comments in interviews and commentaries on how he would go back and make Alien more homoerotic if he could, it fits more.
Quote from: Hudson on May 22, 2017, 12:22:55 AM
Quote from: Engineer on May 22, 2017, 12:21:44 AM
Quote from: Magegg on May 22, 2017, 12:12:15 AM
The "mini alien" was the most WTF and weirdest, most awkward thing of the whole movie :/
While that was weird, I'd say David kissing Walter has it beat.
Considering Scott's continuous comments in interviews and commentaries on how he would go back and make Alien more homoerotic if he could, it fits more.
Still weird
Quote from: RidgeTop on May 21, 2017, 08:31:17 AM
This is going to be ranty, but I attempted to be as fair as I could in my own personal assessment and refrain from bitching. I'm putting it in a spoiler tag to save everyone the wall of text.
I personally give the movie a five out of ten. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about it, and this "you're not a true fan" business is silly. Anyone can be a true fan and like or dislike the film.
Spoiler
Alien: Covenant review, oh boy, here we go...
I'll be really impressed if anyone makes it through all of this.
I just got back from my second viewing, wanted to give it another chance before finalizing my opinion.
These are my opinions, my speculations, and my frustrations, I'm just sharing my thoughts here and I don't expect anyone to agree with me. It is worth seeing, and anyone who is interested in it should make up their own mind. If you liked the movie, great! I wish I could.
Alien: Covenant is a bad film.
Not only is it a bad film, it's a bad Alien Prequel, and it's a bad Prometheus Sequel.
It's my least favorite of them all, out of any of the Alien, Predator, or Alien Vs. Predator movies. I like it less than Prometheus.
It brings me no pleasure to say this or have this opinion, anyone who knows me will know I was excited for this movie and wanted it to be great. However, I knew after Prometheus and from some of the rumors I was hearing that my expectations should be measured, so I made sure to keep them as low as I could for the release of an Alien film. It didn't help. Like Prometheus, I watched it again, hoping it would grow on me. It didn't.
I realize this, coming from someone who defends the Alien Vs. Predator movies, won't be a popular assessment. That's OK, it's mine and I'm just sharing it. I'll get to why I think those films, while not as well crafted, served the franchise/s better and had more passion in them.
I'm going to go through the whole plot here. If you just want to see my pros, cons and overall thoughts, skip to the end.
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We start with an intriguing scene where David awakens and meets his creator, Peter Weyland for the first time. There is an interesting back and forth here between creator and creation, and it's clear that this is the theme the movie is going to be focusing on, along with David himself. The scene ends with Weyland, uncomfortable with David's line of questioning, requesting for tea right next to him as a power play. I suppose this is the beginning of David's daddy issues.
Really this movie should have been called David: Covenant.
Skip ahead 10 years after Prometheus and we're with the Covenant, a colonization ship, on its long journey to the planet Origae 6. The ship, its solar sails extended is impacted by a random neutrino burst. Walter awakens the crew, and James Franco's character, Captian Branson remains in his pod. Something is clearly wrong with his pod and before long the inside of it bursts into flames, killing him. This was the first part of the movie I was a bit confused by. You would think, due to rank, Walter would be awakening him first. The pod did not look particularly damaged, and they don't build these things with emergency releases?
In any case, the religious character, Oram, assumes command and is uneasy with his perceptions of the crew judging him.
I enjoyed the scene with the characters repairing the damaged ship, we get some really good views of the Covenant ship, as well as the impressive, practically built and moebius inspired spacesuits. Also, seeing a scene straight from Alien, where they eject their dead crew-member's body out of an airlock and into space was a bit of a treat.
As they are about to depart they receive a transmission. A ghostly image who is singing. Tennessee recognizes the song. I guess John Denver is still pretty well known a century from now? Walter, the android on the ship with the same look of David, is logical, straightforward, and yet subtly compassionate. I like him as a character.
They track the transmission to its source on a nearby planet, much closer than their terraforming destination. Oram decides they should check it out as it could potentially be a better candidate for their colony. This alone would be a bad reason and I'm glad they decided to throw in the "This is a human transmission and we're obligated to investigate" bit. Daniels, our female main character, calls this out as a bad idea.
After descending through the stormy atmosphere to the planet's surface, a scene that had distant vibes of the dropship descent in Aliens, they land on the edge of a lake and begin their trek. They have no protective suits, or procedure for an initial walk-around.
Even the astronauts in Prometheus were not that stupid.
Yes they mention the atmospheric contents but like any new planet landed on, you would think initial pathogen tests would need to be made. Space truckers were more concerned with decontamination and quarantine.
Eventually they come across the crashed ship that Shaw and David used to escape LV-223. I had to admit, their reaction to coming across a ship of potential Alien origin was pretty subdued. We see spores infecting a couple crew members. One puts his damn face in it, pokes it, and notices it release. He doesn't think to tell anyone he might be infected once he starts showing symptoms, a la Holloway in Prometheus. They find the origin of the signal and realize that Shaw and David were aboard the ship. Once two characters get sick they rush their way back to the lander.
Two people make it back first, one infected, one accompanying him. They get to the lander and Karine begs for Farris' help. They go to the medbay, Faris proceeds to lock them in, afraid of an outbreak (even though it wouldn't matter as her face had just been sprayed with blood). Karine realizes something emerging after... hugging a potentially infected guy? She begs Farris to open the door. Farris, in a panic, leaves again, runs to grab a weapon. The Neomorph emerges, I guess it's called the bloodburster for this one. Immediately Karine kicks it back, it viciously attacks her and tears her face up. Farris proceeds to open the door, slip on the bloody floor and shoot the ceiling, crawl back out the door, breaking her foot upon it closing. The bloodburster, the one that was just kicked into the wall a moment earlier proceeds to BREAK THE GLASS on the bulkhead door. Farris shoots around the room in a panic, hitting some tanks and blowing up the lander.
The other bloodburster emerges from the throat of the other victim. I'm not using their names because these two people have not been established as characters, so I really don't care what is happening to them other than seeing the thrilling gore of it. The Neomorph comes back LITERALLY SECONDS LATER, NEARLY FULLY GROWN. They shoot at the Neomorph as it takes off Walter's hand. David comes in and fires a flare, I guess the Neomorphs don't like light too much as they scurry off.
David leads them to the Engineer "Necropolis," which like with the Juggernaut, the group seems awfully calm about. This looks ripped straight out of Rome, as if it's the Vatican itself. We get some Prometheus vibes here, seeing a temple like interior with large stone heads. David explains his backstory and asks a few questions of his own.
It's here where Daniels talks to Walter and says what really should have been the tagline of the film:
"Nothing here makes any sense."
Most of the second act is here. We get some intriguing conversations between Walter and David. They have a strange flute-playing scene together.
"I'll do the fingering."
At one point they walked into a garden that was Ripped straight from the Arnold Böcklin painting "Isle of the Dead." It's here where David reveals that Shaw is dead and that he loved her. Making up a story about how the Juggernaut accidentally deployed its cargo and in the confusion their ship crashed.
We see a flashback where David drops the ships deadly cargo on the Engineer city. Why? Who knows. Some glances of female engineers. This is their home planet but they all live in one city? Why were there gates confining them to the courtyard? They are an advanced space-faring race with no defenses? Lots of questions here that we've been waiting for since the end of Prometheus five years ago. If you were hoping for any satisfying answers you're out of luck. The black goo instantly mummifies them? I suppose this is another instance of it doing whatever the plot calls for.
Back to the main story, in true horror movie fashion, Rosenthal goes off on her own to "freshen up" in a dark Alien city she knows nothing about... sure. Of course the Neomorph creeps in and bites her head off. Scott apparently wants us to really get this as going forward there are three extended shots of her head floating in the water.
During this whole time the crew of the Covenant ship is trying to re-establish contact with the ground crew. There's some good tension between the three bridge crew Members, with Tennessee wanting to risk the Covenant by flying into the storm.
The acting captian, Oram walks in to find the Neomorph munching on Rosenthal's corpse. David has already arrived here and is apparently trying to gain the Neomorph's trust. It strangely stands up straight and walks over to David. Oram has had enough and kills the Neomorph with his assault rifle. David has an emotional outburst upon this, which should be a pretty big red flag to Oram. Oram demands answers and David proceeds to show him his Frankenstein lair.
It's here where we start to gain the realization that David is the creator of the Xenomorphs. Ughhhh, Why Scott? Why did you do this? No one wanted this but you. Even the most praising reviews have been tepid about this. I'll express more of my thoughts after this plot run through. David leads Oram like a lamb to the slaughter into his egg chamber and tells him to put his face in the egg. Like an idiot Oram does this and gets facehugged. Didn't see that one coming.
Again, literally moments later. the Xenomorph is bursting out, only it's not a chestburster. It's a mini-Alien that mimics David in reaching its hands out. OK, what? We go back to Walter and David, after seeing Shaw's dissected and mutated corpse. So much for any satisfying conclusion for that character from Prometheus. David goes a bit meta here and plays the theme from Prometheus on his flute. Walter has figured David out. It's here was have a strange quasi incestuous, homo-erotic kiss between both of Micheal Fassbender's characters, before David attacks Walter and disables him. We can see Walter's skin repairing itself.
The characters begin their escape of the temple and, another is facehugged for about 5 seconds before it being cut off of his face. The instantly full-grown Xenomorph shows up (eat your heart out Paul W. S. Anderson), kills one of them as the facehugged for 5 seconds other guy runs off. After David gets all creepy and rapey on Daniels, Walter shows back up and we then get a straight out of Mortal Kombat fight between the two androids. The fight cuts away.
Tennessee arrives in the cargo lander. And why again does a ship of over two thousand people only have one shuttle? "Walter" (we know who this really is) follows them out. After that it's the Xenomorph. They climb aboard as the Xenomorph also hops on. Here's that fight from the trailer we all saw. After some cat-and-mouse back and forth between Daniels and the Alien, it's instantly crunched by heavy machinery and released into pieces, in the scene after its birth. Perfect Organism indeed.
I really get the impression Scott wasn't too interested in making an Alien film here.
They make it back to the ship. Some nice shots of the Covenant in the stormy clouds around this bit, reminded me of Event Horizon. Daniels repairs "Walter's" face, (I thought his skin was self repairing?). David really had time to cut his hand off and do his hair just right so that she wouldn't recognize him up close?
After they depart, it becomes evident a Xenomorph is on the ship. I guess five seconds is enough for a facehug to be effective. And again, the Xenomorph is an adult, instantly. The other two crew members apparently thought it would be a good time to have sex in the showers, and here we get our infamous shower scene that we expected from the trailers. I was actually looking forward to this, I was hoping it would be long and disturbing, but it ends up being quick, horror-movie trope fare, which some were initially afraid of but I defended before I ended up seeing.
They lead the Xenomorph into the terraforming bay, trap it in a tractor, and attempt to blow it out of the airlock. It leaps back on the ships platform just in time to be impaled and thrust into space. Again, because we haven't seen that before.
After getting in the hypersleep pods, Daniels realizes this movie's BIG TWIST! David is pretending to be Walter. Why didn't he just play along with her conversation? The twist was ridiculous. A real twist would have been if it really had been Walter, who I ended up liking much more than David in the film. Instead, the movie went and did the ultimate cliche.
In the very weird final scene, David pukes up some tiny facehuggers encased in the same material that the human fetuses were. OK... how?
------------------
When I first walked out of the theater, I was feeling a lot like I did after Prometheus, confusion, denial. Upon reading the reviews of those both defending the film and criticizing it, and thinking upon it myself, like with Prometheus, I was left with immense frustration and disappointment.
This movie wasn't an Alien film.
Now when I criticize Scott here, I do so granting him the respect of a skilled artist and visionary. I can't deny he knows how to direct, and create beautiful scenes. But personally, I don't think any artist, or the work of any artist, is above criticism. The Martian restored some of my faith in Scott as a film maker, but that wasn't his story. It only illustrated well that Scott's strength lies in his visuals, and when he tries to get too involved in a story, it comes across as just random, pseudo-philosophical musings.
More and more I see Alien wasn't his masterpiece. It was a perfect storm of a strong director (who was still new so could only have so much creative control), the story of Dan O' Bannon and Ronald Shusset, (Both of those writers having criticisms of the direction of the franchise, including Prometheus), and the artistry of H.R. Giger and Ron Cobb. Without any of these elements, the symphony that was Alien likely wouldn't have been nearly as effective as it was.
The problem now is that Scott seems to want to be the entire symphony. Although he didn't write Prometheus and Covenant, he was deeply involved in the story and writing process. I really feel he was completely uninterested in listening to the criticisms of Prometheus, only doubling and tripling down on its flaws. I find it hard to believe, despite what Scott says on how he "listened to the fans." If he did he would have known that our problems went well beyond not seeing the Alien.
This film doesn't even grant us that much. I'm willing to bet the Alien has less screen time in this than in the original film. And even when it was not on screen in Alien, it was in the background, lurking. The threat of it was ever present. Our space trucker characters were all known to the audience, they planned, failed, made mistakes, but they were still smart. They acted how people would act. Prometheus and Covenant both threw this out the window.
There were zero creature practical effects that I could see, if there were any, they were too quick to notice. CG and Practical effects are both great tools for filmmakers to use but when you use all CGI for convenience sake, in the installment of a franchise that is known for its outstanding legacy with practical creature effects, you do it a tremendous disservice.
Scott seems intent on making David the center of the Alien universe, and I'm gonna call it now. David will be the Space Jockey.
I have to wonder if Scott is just becoming cynical.
Like Prometheus, this film ended on a semi-cliffhanger, teasing us that we will get our answers in the sequel. But we didn't get any answers to the giant questions left at the end of Prometheus, why should I wait another three to five years for the answers to this that will likely again, only raise questions and answer nothing. It is everything wrong with Hollywood these days. This movie is a corporate product, and we are to keep throwing money at it with the fleeting hope that it may satisfy, eventually.
The immense advertising and marketing campaign for Covenant was entirely dishonest.
I get the feeling Fox forced Scott to make this an Alien film, so he threw an Alien in to hardly be seen. Far more interested in Androids and philosophy, and turning everything we know on its head for the sake of doing so.
Essentially, this film ruins the mystery of the Alien in the same way Prometheus ruined the mystery of the Space Jockey. Scott said in interviews "No one bothered to ask about the man in the chair." OF COURSE WE DID, and everyone had their own answer for it. That was the beauty of the Space Jockey. It was the ultimate mystery of the Alien Universe. It's the same for the Xenomorph itself, the joy and beauty is that we didn't know where they were from or why they existed, they just were, because space is weird. Hence the name "Alien."
Is it really an "Alien" if it's just the result of an insane android? And for those who never liked the idea of Cameron's Aliens as bugs, David LITERALLY USES BUGS TO CREATE THE XENOMORPH.
I'm tempted to just agree with Dan O'Bannon when he said about the Alien subsequent films:
"I'd like to see it stop. A horror movie's a fragile thing, and once you've gotten past the original, it isn't scary anymore. So you do a bunch of sequels to a horror movie, all they do is drain any remaining impact out of the original. All of the sequels to for instance Invasion Of The Bodysnatchers, same thing; they over-expose the ideas, and when you look at the original, it's not as effective as it would have been if you had just left it alone."
But no, I do think the Alien has lasting power as a franchise, and sometimes you can have too much studio questioning of a director as seemed to be the case with Alien³. But I think Scott is engaged in the Lucas effect here. His reputation is a double edged sword that he's surrounded by yes-men, none of whom would ever have the balls to say "I think this might not be the best idea, Ridley."
For those who were complaining about Neil Blomkamp's Alien film retconning the series, what do you think Scott is doing? Honestly, the franchise is so expansive is convoluted now that I think it would be best to just do away with canon. Have the films be like the Comics, they all tell their own stories in their own universes. Neil even said he didn't want to diminish Alien³ or Resurrection with his film, and yet, Scott wanted to make sure nothing Neil did interfered with his. It seems Scott is intent to keep this franchise to himself, I only hope someone higher at Fox will realize that it may be time to let other creatives have their shots, some who will treat the Xenomorph with the respect it deserves.
While Covenant may have been well crafted from a technical standpoint, what anyone would expect from a Ridley Scott film, it didn't seem to have to passion and respect for the Alien that even the AVP films had. Those knew what they were, they were comic book / video game style movies that added to the mythos, without stepping on the toes of any of the other films.
Covenant takes away from the franchise, making countless expanded universe stories and fan speculations invalid in favor of the worst possible explanation for the origin of the Xenomorph. One so bad, I don't remember any fan thinking of it before Covenant, which is unfortunately, likely exactly why Scott wanted to go for it. The beauty of the Alien is in its simplicity and its mystery, that's where its elegance lies. You turn it into a mutant experiment and you've essentially made Alien go full Resident Evil.
Although I was more receptive to the ideas of Spaiths' script for an Alien Prequel, these films have made me realize that the Alien series should not have prequels. They undermine the most important elements of the Xenomorph and Space Jockey, their mystery. That's the kind of mystery that's good. Mystery that is in the background and serves the plot, not mystery that the plot hinges upon. The mystery that we see in Prometheus and Covenant is just lazy storytelling, lazy screenwriting, and misses the point of Alien. You're going to make Prometheus on the premise of exploring the Engineers, and then go nowhere with it? What? Prometheus is essentially pointless now and Alien Covenant was just one giant detour to pick up David and wonder what he'll do next.
My former film teacher put it nicely: Prometheus was a noble failure, Covenant just fails.
Ok, I gotta stop myself, I'm venting now. so here's the TLDR for anyone who just scrolled to the bottom.
PROS:
-Good production design, cool spaceship, suits, and sets.
-Characters were more human and likable than in Prometheus. Really enjoyed Tennessee.
-Gory and brutal
-Interesting conversations with David, although excessive
-The music was a well done throwback to the original, like Predators had.
CONS:
-No satisfying answers to Prometheus
-Poor character development
-People making even less intelligent decisions than in Prometheus
-Completely screwed up lifecycle.
-Almost no Alien, no practical effects, both times it's dispatched quickly by the crew.
-Obsession with android pseudo-philosophy.
-Leaves us waiting for a sequel, again.
-Ruins the mystery of the Xenomorph
-Most predictable twist ever.
-Like Prometheus, seemingly doesn't know what it wants to be.
WHY?:
-Why did David release the the pathogen on the Engineer city?
-Why were the pathogen's effects on the Engineers different than what we saw in Prometheus?
-Why did David kill Shaw?
-How did David create the Xenomorphs?
-Why did the Juggernaut crash?
-Why do the engineers, an advanced space-faring civilization, only live in one city where giant gates trap them in the courtyard?
-If David creates the Xenomorphs, why were they alluded to in multiple murals in Prometheus?
-Still waiting to know why the Engineers wanted to kill us or what those maps in caves were about.
-David couldn't repair the Juggernaut with all his newfound knowledge of the Engineers?
Final Score: 5/10
AVP3, Alien 5, and The Predator can't come soon enough.
Alan Dean Foster has his work cut out for him.
Nailed it.
So who would do the fingering in Alien? Parker? Anything for a bonus, I guess. ;)
Quote from: KiramidHead on May 22, 2017, 12:27:37 AM
So who would do the fingering in Alien? Parker? Anything for a bonus, I guess. ;)
Lmao I think Parker is freakier than that. Remember his comment to lambert about eating something else? Lol
I think we all can agree all this Alien 'mythology' presented in the Prometheus-Covenant cycle, rather than explaining the origin of the xeno, is becoming a completely convulted mess.
We have the trylobite, the hammersnakes, the black goo (that could disintegrate you or turn you into a monster, who knows why), the deacon, spore-spitting fungus, black sentient virus, backbursters and throatbusters, neomorphs, smaller Engineers that are not the ones of the original movie, a completely altered life-cycle of the creature, a mini-xeno...
I don't know, these movies are simply a mess XD
I wouldn't consider them compatible with the original quadralogy...
Totally agree. It doesn't fit in MY cannon :-)
First viewing in the books.
Spoiler
Just as I expected it to end, but eager to see where it goes from here. If Ellen Ripley lasted three films, I suspect David should last one more. The little touches of the original ALIEN film was nice, especially the opening music to Covenant. As for the Neomorph, it was ok. I didn't like how David scared it away like a dog tho. Overall, it was okay. Would I view it again? Yes.. This certainly not an AVP viewing after all. :P However, I can only wonder how David will create the Alien Queen... :o
Quote from: FiorinaFury161 on May 22, 2017, 03:08:12 AM
First viewing in the books.
Spoiler
Just as I expected it to end, but eager to see where it goes from here. If Ellen Ripley lasted three films, I suspect David should last one more. The little touches of the original ALIEN film was nice, especially the opening music to Covenant. As for the Neomorph, it was ok. I didn't like how David scared it away like a dog tho. Overall, it was okay. Would I view it again? Yes.. This certainly not an AVP viewing after all. :P However, I can only wonder how David will create the Alien Queen... :o
I don't think David will be creating a queen. I think Ridley is trying to retcon everything out of the series that his name isn't attached to.
Quote from: Engineer on May 22, 2017, 03:16:20 AM
Quote from: FiorinaFury161 on May 22, 2017, 03:08:12 AM
First viewing in the books.
Spoiler
Just as I expected it to end, but eager to see where it goes from here. If Ellen Ripley lasted three films, I suspect David should last one more. The little touches of the original ALIEN film was nice, especially the opening music to Covenant. As for the Neomorph, it was ok. I didn't like how David scared it away like a dog tho. Overall, it was okay. Would I view it again? Yes.. This certainly not an AVP viewing after all. :P However, I can only wonder how David will create the Alien Queen... :o
I don't think David will be creating a queen. I think Ridley is trying to retcon everything out of the series that his name isn't attached to.
That might be what he's doing, but I'm not even sure he's aware it's a retcon. I'm not convinced he's even wholly aware of the content of the other films. If he is, he doesn't care what's happened since Alien.
Quote from: RidgeTop on May 21, 2017, 08:31:17 AM
This is going to be ranty, but I attempted to be as fair as I could in my own personal assessment and refrain from bitching. I'm putting it in a spoiler tag to save everyone the wall of text.
I personally give the movie a five out of ten. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about it, and this "you're not a true fan" business is silly. Anyone can be a true fan and like or dislike the film.
Spoiler
Alien: Covenant review, oh boy, here we go...
I'll be really impressed if anyone makes it through all of this.
I just got back from my second viewing, wanted to give it another chance before finalizing my opinion.
These are my opinions, my speculations, and my frustrations, I'm just sharing my thoughts here and I don't expect anyone to agree with me. It is worth seeing, and anyone who is interested in it should make up their own mind. If you liked the movie, great! I wish I could.
Alien: Covenant is a bad film.
Not only is it a bad film, it's a bad Alien Prequel, and it's a bad Prometheus Sequel.
It's my least favorite of them all, out of any of the Alien, Predator, or Alien Vs. Predator movies. I like it less than Prometheus.
It brings me no pleasure to say this or have this opinion, anyone who knows me will know I was excited for this movie and wanted it to be great. However, I knew after Prometheus and from some of the rumors I was hearing that my expectations should be measured, so I made sure to keep them as low as I could for the release of an Alien film. It didn't help. Like Prometheus, I watched it again, hoping it would grow on me. It didn't.
I realize this, coming from someone who defends the Alien Vs. Predator movies, won't be a popular assessment. That's OK, it's mine and I'm just sharing it. I'll get to why I think those films, while not as well crafted, served the franchise/s better and had more passion in them.
I'm going to go through the whole plot here. If you just want to see my pros, cons and overall thoughts, skip to the end.
------------------
We start with an intriguing scene where David awakens and meets his creator, Peter Weyland for the first time. There is an interesting back and forth here between creator and creation, and it's clear that this is the theme the movie is going to be focusing on, along with David himself. The scene ends with Weyland, uncomfortable with David's line of questioning, requesting for tea right next to him as a power play. I suppose this is the beginning of David's daddy issues.
Really this movie should have been called David: Covenant.
Skip ahead 10 years after Prometheus and we're with the Covenant, a colonization ship, on its long journey to the planet Origae 6. The ship, its solar sails extended is impacted by a random neutrino burst. Walter awakens the crew, and James Franco's character, Captian Branson remains in his pod. Something is clearly wrong with his pod and before long the inside of it bursts into flames, killing him. This was the first part of the movie I was a bit confused by. You would think, due to rank, Walter would be awakening him first. The pod did not look particularly damaged, and they don't build these things with emergency releases?
In any case, the religious character, Oram, assumes command and is uneasy with his perceptions of the crew judging him.
I enjoyed the scene with the characters repairing the damaged ship, we get some really good views of the Covenant ship, as well as the impressive, practically built and moebius inspired spacesuits. Also, seeing a scene straight from Alien, where they eject their dead crew-member's body out of an airlock and into space was a bit of a treat.
As they are about to depart they receive a transmission. A ghostly image who is singing. Tennessee recognizes the song. I guess John Denver is still pretty well known a century from now? Walter, the android on the ship with the same look of David, is logical, straightforward, and yet subtly compassionate. I like him as a character.
They track the transmission to its source on a nearby planet, much closer than their terraforming destination. Oram decides they should check it out as it could potentially be a better candidate for their colony. This alone would be a bad reason and I'm glad they decided to throw in the "This is a human transmission and we're obligated to investigate" bit. Daniels, our female main character, calls this out as a bad idea.
After descending through the stormy atmosphere to the planet's surface, a scene that had distant vibes of the dropship descent in Aliens, they land on the edge of a lake and begin their trek. They have no protective suits, or procedure for an initial walk-around.
Even the astronauts in Prometheus were not that stupid.
Yes they mention the atmospheric contents but like any new planet landed on, you would think initial pathogen tests would need to be made. Space truckers were more concerned with decontamination and quarantine.
Eventually they come across the crashed ship that Shaw and David used to escape LV-223. I had to admit, their reaction to coming across a ship of potential Alien origin was pretty subdued. We see spores infecting a couple crew members. One puts his damn face in it, pokes it, and notices it release. He doesn't think to tell anyone he might be infected once he starts showing symptoms, a la Holloway in Prometheus. They find the origin of the signal and realize that Shaw and David were aboard the ship. Once two characters get sick they rush their way back to the lander.
Two people make it back first, one infected, one accompanying him. They get to the lander and Karine begs for Farris' help. They go to the medbay, Faris proceeds to lock them in, afraid of an outbreak (even though it wouldn't matter as her face had just been sprayed with blood). Karine realizes something emerging after... hugging a potentially infected guy? She begs Farris to open the door. Farris, in a panic, leaves again, runs to grab a weapon. The Neomorph emerges, I guess it's called the bloodburster for this one. Immediately Karine kicks it back, it viciously attacks her and tears her face up. Farris proceeds to open the door, slip on the bloody floor and shoot the ceiling, crawl back out the door, breaking her foot upon it closing. The bloodburster, the one that was just kicked into the wall a moment earlier proceeds to BREAK THE GLASS on the bulkhead door. Farris shoots around the room in a panic, hitting some tanks and blowing up the lander.
The other bloodburster emerges from the throat of the other victim. I'm not using their names because these two people have not been established as characters, so I really don't care what is happening to them other than seeing the thrilling gore of it. The Neomorph comes back LITERALLY SECONDS LATER, NEARLY FULLY GROWN. They shoot at the Neomorph as it takes off Walter's hand. David comes in and fires a flare, I guess the Neomorphs don't like light too much as they scurry off.
David leads them to the Engineer "Necropolis," which like with the Juggernaut, the group seems awfully calm about. This looks ripped straight out of Rome, as if it's the Vatican itself. We get some Prometheus vibes here, seeing a temple like interior with large stone heads. David explains his backstory and asks a few questions of his own.
It's here where Daniels talks to Walter and says what really should have been the tagline of the film:
"Nothing here makes any sense."
Most of the second act is here. We get some intriguing conversations between Walter and David. They have a strange flute-playing scene together.
"I'll do the fingering."
At one point they walked into a garden that was Ripped straight from the Arnold Böcklin painting "Isle of the Dead." It's here where David reveals that Shaw is dead and that he loved her. Making up a story about how the Juggernaut accidentally deployed its cargo and in the confusion their ship crashed.
We see a flashback where David drops the ships deadly cargo on the Engineer city. Why? Who knows. Some glances of female engineers. This is their home planet but they all live in one city? Why were there gates confining them to the courtyard? They are an advanced space-faring race with no defenses? Lots of questions here that we've been waiting for since the end of Prometheus five years ago. If you were hoping for any satisfying answers you're out of luck. The black goo instantly mummifies them? I suppose this is another instance of it doing whatever the plot calls for.
Back to the main story, in true horror movie fashion, Rosenthal goes off on her own to "freshen up" in a dark Alien city she knows nothing about... sure. Of course the Neomorph creeps in and bites her head off. Scott apparently wants us to really get this as going forward there are three extended shots of her head floating in the water.
During this whole time the crew of the Covenant ship is trying to re-establish contact with the ground crew. There's some good tension between the three bridge crew Members, with Tennessee wanting to risk the Covenant by flying into the storm.
The acting captian, Oram walks in to find the Neomorph munching on Rosenthal's corpse. David has already arrived here and is apparently trying to gain the Neomorph's trust. It strangely stands up straight and walks over to David. Oram has had enough and kills the Neomorph with his assault rifle. David has an emotional outburst upon this, which should be a pretty big red flag to Oram. Oram demands answers and David proceeds to show him his Frankenstein lair.
It's here where we start to gain the realization that David is the creator of the Xenomorphs. Ughhhh, Why Scott? Why did you do this? No one wanted this but you. Even the most praising reviews have been tepid about this. I'll express more of my thoughts after this plot run through. David leads Oram like a lamb to the slaughter into his egg chamber and tells him to put his face in the egg. Like an idiot Oram does this and gets facehugged. Didn't see that one coming.
Again, literally moments later. the Xenomorph is bursting out, only it's not a chestburster. It's a mini-Alien that mimics David in reaching its hands out. OK, what? We go back to Walter and David, after seeing Shaw's dissected and mutated corpse. So much for any satisfying conclusion for that character from Prometheus. David goes a bit meta here and plays the theme from Prometheus on his flute. Walter has figured David out. It's here was have a strange quasi incestuous, homo-erotic kiss between both of Micheal Fassbender's characters, before David attacks Walter and disables him. We can see Walter's skin repairing itself.
The characters begin their escape of the temple and, another is facehugged for about 5 seconds before it being cut off of his face. The instantly full-grown Xenomorph shows up (eat your heart out Paul W. S. Anderson), kills one of them as the facehugged for 5 seconds other guy runs off. After David gets all creepy and rapey on Daniels, Walter shows back up and we then get a straight out of Mortal Kombat fight between the two androids. The fight cuts away.
Tennessee arrives in the cargo lander. And why again does a ship of over two thousand people only have one shuttle? "Walter" (we know who this really is) follows them out. After that it's the Xenomorph. They climb aboard as the Xenomorph also hops on. Here's that fight from the trailer we all saw. After some cat-and-mouse back and forth between Daniels and the Alien, it's instantly crunched by heavy machinery and released into pieces, in the scene after its birth. Perfect Organism indeed.
I really get the impression Scott wasn't too interested in making an Alien film here.
They make it back to the ship. Some nice shots of the Covenant in the stormy clouds around this bit, reminded me of Event Horizon. Daniels repairs "Walter's" face, (I thought his skin was self repairing?). David really had time to cut his hand off and do his hair just right so that she wouldn't recognize him up close?
After they depart, it becomes evident a Xenomorph is on the ship. I guess five seconds is enough for a facehug to be effective. And again, the Xenomorph is an adult, instantly. The other two crew members apparently thought it would be a good time to have sex in the showers, and here we get our infamous shower scene that we expected from the trailers. I was actually looking forward to this, I was hoping it would be long and disturbing, but it ends up being quick, horror-movie trope fare, which some were initially afraid of but I defended before I ended up seeing.
They lead the Xenomorph into the terraforming bay, trap it in a tractor, and attempt to blow it out of the airlock. It leaps back on the ships platform just in time to be impaled and thrust into space. Again, because we haven't seen that before.
After getting in the hypersleep pods, Daniels realizes this movie's BIG TWIST! David is pretending to be Walter. Why didn't he just play along with her conversation? The twist was ridiculous. A real twist would have been if it really had been Walter, who I ended up liking much more than David in the film. Instead, the movie went and did the ultimate cliche.
In the very weird final scene, David pukes up some tiny facehuggers encased in the same material that the human fetuses were. OK... how?
------------------
When I first walked out of the theater, I was feeling a lot like I did after Prometheus, confusion, denial. Upon reading the reviews of those both defending the film and criticizing it, and thinking upon it myself, like with Prometheus, I was left with immense frustration and disappointment.
This movie wasn't an Alien film.
Now when I criticize Scott here, I do so granting him the respect of a skilled artist and visionary. I can't deny he knows how to direct, and create beautiful scenes. But personally, I don't think any artist, or the work of any artist, is above criticism. The Martian restored some of my faith in Scott as a film maker, but that wasn't his story. It only illustrated well that Scott's strength lies in his visuals, and when he tries to get too involved in a story, it comes across as just random, pseudo-philosophical musings.
More and more I see Alien wasn't his masterpiece. It was a perfect storm of a strong director (who was still new so could only have so much creative control), the story of Dan O' Bannon and Ronald Shusset, (Both of those writers having criticisms of the direction of the franchise, including Prometheus), and the artistry of H.R. Giger and Ron Cobb. Without any of these elements, the symphony that was Alien likely wouldn't have been nearly as effective as it was.
The problem now is that Scott seems to want to be the entire symphony. Although he didn't write Prometheus and Covenant, he was deeply involved in the story and writing process. I really feel he was completely uninterested in listening to the criticisms of Prometheus, only doubling and tripling down on its flaws. I find it hard to believe, despite what Scott says on how he "listened to the fans." If he did he would have known that our problems went well beyond not seeing the Alien.
This film doesn't even grant us that much. I'm willing to bet the Alien has less screen time in this than in the original film. And even when it was not on screen in Alien, it was in the background, lurking. The threat of it was ever present. Our space trucker characters were all known to the audience, they planned, failed, made mistakes, but they were still smart. They acted how people would act. Prometheus and Covenant both threw this out the window.
There were zero creature practical effects that I could see, if there were any, they were too quick to notice. CG and Practical effects are both great tools for filmmakers to use but when you use all CGI for convenience sake, in the installment of a franchise that is known for its outstanding legacy with practical creature effects, you do it a tremendous disservice.
Scott seems intent on making David the center of the Alien universe, and I'm gonna call it now. David will be the Space Jockey.
I have to wonder if Scott is just becoming cynical.
Like Prometheus, this film ended on a semi-cliffhanger, teasing us that we will get our answers in the sequel. But we didn't get any answers to the giant questions left at the end of Prometheus, why should I wait another three to five years for the answers to this that will likely again, only raise questions and answer nothing. It is everything wrong with Hollywood these days. This movie is a corporate product, and we are to keep throwing money at it with the fleeting hope that it may satisfy, eventually.
The immense advertising and marketing campaign for Covenant was entirely dishonest.
I get the feeling Fox forced Scott to make this an Alien film, so he threw an Alien in to hardly be seen. Far more interested in Androids and philosophy, and turning everything we know on its head for the sake of doing so.
Essentially, this film ruins the mystery of the Alien in the same way Prometheus ruined the mystery of the Space Jockey. Scott said in interviews "No one bothered to ask about the man in the chair." OF COURSE WE DID, and everyone had their own answer for it. That was the beauty of the Space Jockey. It was the ultimate mystery of the Alien Universe. It's the same for the Xenomorph itself, the joy and beauty is that we didn't know where they were from or why they existed, they just were, because space is weird. Hence the name "Alien."
Is it really an "Alien" if it's just the result of an insane android? And for those who never liked the idea of Cameron's Aliens as bugs, David LITERALLY USES BUGS TO CREATE THE XENOMORPH.
I'm tempted to just agree with Dan O'Bannon when he said about the Alien subsequent films:
"I'd like to see it stop. A horror movie's a fragile thing, and once you've gotten past the original, it isn't scary anymore. So you do a bunch of sequels to a horror movie, all they do is drain any remaining impact out of the original. All of the sequels to for instance Invasion Of The Bodysnatchers, same thing; they over-expose the ideas, and when you look at the original, it's not as effective as it would have been if you had just left it alone."
But no, I do think the Alien has lasting power as a franchise, and sometimes you can have too much studio questioning of a director as seemed to be the case with Alien³. But I think Scott is engaged in the Lucas effect here. His reputation is a double edged sword that he's surrounded by yes-men, none of whom would ever have the balls to say "I think this might not be the best idea, Ridley."
For those who were complaining about Neil Blomkamp's Alien film retconning the series, what do you think Scott is doing? Honestly, the franchise is so expansive is convoluted now that I think it would be best to just do away with canon. Have the films be like the Comics, they all tell their own stories in their own universes. Neil even said he didn't want to diminish Alien³ or Resurrection with his film, and yet, Scott wanted to make sure nothing Neil did interfered with his. It seems Scott is intent to keep this franchise to himself, I only hope someone higher at Fox will realize that it may be time to let other creatives have their shots, some who will treat the Xenomorph with the respect it deserves.
While Covenant may have been well crafted from a technical standpoint, what anyone would expect from a Ridley Scott film, it didn't seem to have to passion and respect for the Alien that even the AVP films had. Those knew what they were, they were comic book / video game style movies that added to the mythos, without stepping on the toes of any of the other films.
Covenant takes away from the franchise, making countless expanded universe stories and fan speculations invalid in favor of the worst possible explanation for the origin of the Xenomorph. One so bad, I don't remember any fan thinking of it before Covenant, which is unfortunately, likely exactly why Scott wanted to go for it. The beauty of the Alien is in its simplicity and its mystery, that's where its elegance lies. You turn it into a mutant experiment and you've essentially made Alien go full Resident Evil.
Although I was more receptive to the ideas of Spaiths' script for an Alien Prequel, these films have made me realize that the Alien series should not have prequels. They undermine the most important elements of the Xenomorph and Space Jockey, their mystery. That's the kind of mystery that's good. Mystery that is in the background and serves the plot, not mystery that the plot hinges upon. The mystery that we see in Prometheus and Covenant is just lazy storytelling, lazy screenwriting, and misses the point of Alien. You're going to make Prometheus on the premise of exploring the Engineers, and then go nowhere with it? What? Prometheus is essentially pointless now and Alien Covenant was just one giant detour to pick up David and wonder what he'll do next.
My former film teacher put it nicely: Prometheus was a noble failure, Covenant just fails.
Ok, I gotta stop myself, I'm venting now. so here's the TLDR for anyone who just scrolled to the bottom.
PROS:
-Good production design, cool spaceship, suits, and sets.
-Characters were more human and likable than in Prometheus. Really enjoyed Tennessee.
-Gory and brutal
-Interesting conversations with David, although excessive
-The music was a well done throwback to the original, like Predators had.
CONS:
-No satisfying answers to Prometheus
-Poor character development
-People making even less intelligent decisions than in Prometheus
-Completely screwed up lifecycle.
-Almost no Alien, no practical effects, both times it's dispatched quickly by the crew.
-Obsession with android pseudo-philosophy.
-Leaves us waiting for a sequel, again.
-Ruins the mystery of the Xenomorph
-Most predictable twist ever.
-Like Prometheus, seemingly doesn't know what it wants to be.
WHY?:
-Why did David release the the pathogen on the Engineer city?
-Why were the pathogen's effects on the Engineers different than what we saw in Prometheus?
-Why did David kill Shaw?
-How did David create the Xenomorphs?
-Why did the Juggernaut crash?
-Why do the engineers, an advanced space-faring civilization, only live in one city where giant gates trap them in the courtyard?
-If David creates the Xenomorphs, why were they alluded to in multiple murals in Prometheus?
-Still waiting to know why the Engineers wanted to kill us or what those maps in caves were about.
-David couldn't repair the Juggernaut with all his newfound knowledge of the Engineers?
Final Score: 5/10
AVP3, Alien 5, and The Predator can't come soon enough.
Alan Dean Foster has his work cut out for him.
Much appreciated and insightful review, although I disagree with many of the negative criticisms here. Hopefully I will have time later to get around to addressing them individually because it is fairly long and thorough.
Quote from: Hudson on May 22, 2017, 03:28:25 AM
Quote from: Engineer on May 22, 2017, 03:16:20 AM
Quote from: FiorinaFury161 on May 22, 2017, 03:08:12 AM
First viewing in the books.
Spoiler
Just as I expected it to end, but eager to see where it goes from here. If Ellen Ripley lasted three films, I suspect David should last one more. The little touches of the original ALIEN film was nice, especially the opening music to Covenant. As for the Neomorph, it was ok. I didn't like how David scared it away like a dog tho. Overall, it was okay. Would I view it again? Yes.. This certainly not an AVP viewing after all. :P However, I can only wonder how David will create the Alien Queen... :o
I don't think David will be creating a queen. I think Ridley is trying to retcon everything out of the series that his name isn't attached to.
That might be what he's doing, but I'm not even sure he's aware it's a retcon. I'm not convinced he's even wholly aware of the content of the other films. If he is, he doesn't care what's happened since Alien.
That's my point... kind of. And that's part of what pisses me off about the movie.
And there's this... before I get into it, let me start off by saying this is a critisim of fox, not Ridley, which should be a nice change of pace for this thread:
For the last few years, after Prometheus and aliens: colonial marines, fox has been suggesting that they are going to manage the franchise and the canonical content much more closely so as to not introduce holes and mucky-storylines, right? They dictated the content of the CANONICAL novel trilogy. Made it so Tim Lebbon had to include ripley and such, right? And promoted that as a new canonical entry in the series. To my surprise Tim Lebbon did a fantastic job with what he was given. Then along comes Ridley Scott, and fox doesn't even bother to say anything about the fact that David just created the xenomorphs DESPITE a book less than 5 years old suggesting the xenos had been buried for a millennia on lv 178. What the hell fox?!?
It's basically a really pathetic and unorganized attempt at some kind of Marvel-esque connected universe (especially when you combine Predator), although much of it is not 'cinematic' when you include what they're saying is official canon, such as the books, Isolation, Colonial Marines, etc. Every step they take gets a more and more divisive reaction.
It is definitively the fault of 20th Century Fox at this point for allowing it to happen, but I can't blame them for wanting a kind of "do-over" after the lunacy that was so much of the original Alien EU stuff. Many of those comics are absolutely ridiculous. Unfortunately they're not doing all that much to improve things.
Quote from: Engineer on May 22, 2017, 03:49:35 AM
Quote from: Hudson on May 22, 2017, 03:28:25 AM
Quote from: Engineer on May 22, 2017, 03:16:20 AM
Quote from: FiorinaFury161 on May 22, 2017, 03:08:12 AM
First viewing in the books.
Spoiler
Just as I expected it to end, but eager to see where it goes from here. If Ellen Ripley lasted three films, I suspect David should last one more. The little touches of the original ALIEN film was nice, especially the opening music to Covenant. As for the Neomorph, it was ok. I didn't like how David scared it away like a dog tho. Overall, it was okay. Would I view it again? Yes.. This certainly not an AVP viewing after all. :P However, I can only wonder how David will create the Alien Queen... :o
I don't think David will be creating a queen. I think Ridley is trying to retcon everything out of the series that his name isn't attached to.
That might be what he's doing, but I'm not even sure he's aware it's a retcon. I'm not convinced he's even wholly aware of the content of the other films. If he is, he doesn't care what's happened since Alien.
That's my point... kind of. And that's part of what pisses me off about the movie.
And there's this... before I get into it, let me start off by saying this is a critisim of fox, not Ridley, which should be a nice change of pace for this thread:
For the last few years, after Prometheus and aliens: colonial marines, fox has been suggesting that they are going to manage the franchise and the canonical content much more closely so as to not introduce holes and mucky-storylines, right? They dictated the content of the CANONICAL novel trilogy. Made it so Tim Lebbon had to include ripley and such, right? And promoted that as a new canonical entry in the series. To my surprise Tim Lebbon did a fantastic job with what he was given. Then along comes Ridley Scott, and fox doesn't even bother to say anything about the fact that David just created the xenomorphs DESPITE a book less than 5 years old suggesting the xenos had been buried for a millennia on lv 178. What the hell fox?!?
and they just relese river of pain audio drama on alien day before movie come out few week.
i wonder fox will do sea of sorrow next ?
This movie was Ridley on autopilot. He took for granted the fact that he had to come up with novel scares.
Quote from: Spidey3121 on May 21, 2017, 06:09:33 PM
Quote from: That Yellow Alien on May 21, 2017, 04:38:33 PM
If there was ever a perfect example of a movie that didn't need a prequel, Alien is it, and I still can't for the life of me understand why Scott has insisted it should.
I'm very tempted to just view these new films as a new modern Alien series, a reboot if you will, because for me, ruining the mystery of my favorite movie of all time isn't my jam.
This is why I loved the route that Prometheus took. It wasn't a straight prequel that lead directly into the events of Alien. I thought the Space Jockey's were worth exploring. I understand that some people were upset with how that played out, but I am not one of them. And it didn't directly contradict anything in Alien, whereas Covenant seemingly does. I say seemingly b/c fingers crossed that any sequel we get will correct course.
This reminds what Damon Lindelof once stated :
"Show me something else which I can't guess the possible outcome of. There is no suspense in inevitability. So a true prequel should essentially precede the events of the original film, but be about something entirely different, feature different characters, have an entirely different theme, although it takes place in that same world. That was my fundamental feeling of what this movie ('Prometheus') wanted to be."
I watched Thelma & Louise over the weekend and it made me realise just how far Covenant is from Ridley's best.
Quote from: Engineer on May 22, 2017, 03:16:20 AM
I don't think David will be creating a queen. I think Ridley is trying to retcon everything out of the series that his name isn't attached to.
That would be great. But sadly I think the queen will still be part of it. Fingers crossed though.
Quote from: Gash on May 22, 2017, 09:29:28 AMThat would be great.
No it wouldn't, considering neither of his recent entries have lived up to parts two and three for me.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 22, 2017, 09:42:36 AM
Quote from: Gash on May 22, 2017, 09:29:28 AMThat would be great.
No it wouldn't, considering neither of his recent entries have lived up to parts two and three for me.
Different opinions.
All in all I loved it. It is not Alien, but then again it can't be and we cannot expect it to be.
Spoiler
Can anyone recall what book David was referencing in his conversation with Walter? (Was after the Engineers flashback scene)
Quote from: FiorinaFury161 on May 22, 2017, 01:08:05 PM
Spoiler
Can anyone recall what book David was referencing in his conversation with Walter? (Was after the Engineers flashback scene)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias)
Thank you!
The tiny bit about David mixing up Lord Byron (I think) with Percy Bysshe Shelley was a good point. Shelley's poem is a classic and an "evident" reference given the inspiration of those scenes, but it's still good to read or listen to this effective poem. It's quite a common theme in literature, but it's one of the best poems about it in European literature, I guess.
I wonder why the studio did not want the scene where the Engineers meet their fate at the hands of David, with the bombs of black liquid. Even though the absence of more clues about the Engineers is disappointing, at least the scene is quite impressive and is important for the story.
So I gather this thread and the community as a whole has been going nuts with opinions on the film ranging from it was great to what the Hell was Ridley thinking?
I thought it was decent at first. The first hour which was all about exploration was nice because that's what I enjoy the most in a space-centred film; exploration and learning new things. But the problems started to crop up (at least to me) as early as
Spoiler
when buddy removes his earpiece for literally no other reason than so the virus can float inside his ear and infect him. It was so obvious it was done purely for the sake of moving the plot forward.
Everything went downhill after that, the most egregious of issues I thought was
Spoiler
how the Alien's gestation cycle has now gone from what, two days in Alien, 15 minutes or so in AvP, and instantaneous in Covenant and hell, even the film can't be consistent. The first chestburster that comes out of dude in the spacecraft is a youngin' but then later on, the one that comes out of Oram is already a subadult!
The reintroduction of David made me optimistic at first because I thought, "Great, now we can tackle the questions from Prometheus." Well obviously that didn't happen because we learn that
Spoiler
Shaw is dead (likely because Noomi Rapace couldn't come to terms with the studio on a pay cheque)
, and David is a homicidal maniac because...he has daddy issues. And apparently he's bisexual too. f**king,
what?! Those of you who have seen the film know which scenes I'm referring to in this regard. I literally threw my hands up in the theatre and asked, "What?"
Farris was a complete moron. I'm sorry but there was no reason for her to
Spoiler
lock Karine in the medbay. All it would have taken was a couple of seconds to open the door, quickly let Karine out, then lock it again. Alien is contained at least for a few seconds and it would have avoided the disaster that soon followed.
Much of what happens to forward the plot once they land on the planet seems to happen only because the characters are behaving in stupid ways. Come on, just look at
Spoiler
Oram's interactions with David. Oram couldn't have made it any more obvious that he didn't trust David one bit yet he somehow believes him when David says the egg is perfectly safe.
.
SiL said to me that he felt the only reason the Xeno was in the film was because fans whined about no Xeno in Prometheus. I fully agree with that sentiment. The Xenomorph's presence is forced in and the uber-quick gestation period was obviously done that way because, well, you can't really have a chestburster scurrying around on the planet now can you, while it takes 40 minutes for it to grow into a subadult like in Alien.
Spoiler
One of the problems of the movie, linked to the reprisal of the formula of the other Alien movies, is the fact the main story on the planet happens in a few hours.
It would have been great to subvert this usual scenario : it would have permitted to have more believable duration of gestation of the creatures, and more scenes of exploration, most notably ones that could have given some clues about the Engineers' starship and city.
The film would have to be either longer or ended up being a rehash of Alien, with the landing on the planet being right off the bat. Fans would have complained even louder.
Er, one some levels, it is a rehash of Alien. ;)
As for the duration, where is the problem with a longer movie for a great audience ? Interstellar was 169 minutes and was well received, and I don't know people who found the theatrical editions of the LOTR movies too long. Give me a great movie, well realized, and the duration won't matter - OK, I'm not a great example of the usual film watcher.
Quote from: Ulfer on May 22, 2017, 02:37:53 PM
As for the duration, where is the problem with a longer movie for a great audience ? Interstellar was 169 minutes and was well received, and I don't know people who found the theatrical editions of the LOTR movies too long. Give me a great movie, well realized, and the duration won't matter - OK, I'm not a great example of the usual film watcher.
When the film ended, I wanted more. It's a good movie, though its obvious it was edited to an inch of its life. Seeing some of the stuff that was cut on YouTube, hope someone tells Fox or Scott to do an extended cut.
Quote from: Ulfer on May 22, 2017, 02:37:53 PM
Er, one some levels, it is a rehash of Alien. ;)
As for the duration, where is the problem with a longer movie for a great audience ? Interstellar was 169 minutes and was well received, and I don't know people who found the theatrical editions of the LOTR movies too long. Give me a great movie, well realized, and the duration won't matter - OK, I'm not a great example of the usual film watcher.
So then like The Force Awakens, it's proving that the Alien universe is limited in its scope and there isn't room for expansion beyond what we get in novels, comics, and fan fics. In that case, let it die.
@DoomRulz :
It's not a proof. Scott and his team have made choices and have gone to that direction. It does not prove that there would not be potential for more.
Nothing constrainted Star Wars VII to be the film it is. Nothing imposed that there would be another Death star alternative, that the first planet seen would be desertic and Tatooine-like, that many elements would look a bit too much like variations of what was already known, that there would be too much easter eggs (imho : it felt even more strange since Rogue One was to be made, a movie that is built upon nostalgia, but rightly so, and seems more imaginative to me than Episode VII !).
But choices were made and/or there were directions by the studio, in the context of an industry that mostly wants to play safe with established franchises and sagas. In the SF genre, I liked these last years Interstellar, Gravity, The Arrival, movies that are not part of a franchise, much more than Star Wars and Star Trek new films.
There is a problem with the tendance to do mainly prequels, sequels or reboots, that is sad when the films in question are too much derivative, of subpar level, or unimaginative. Alien Covenant is a mixed feelings experience for me. But I see the return of this problem, with Scott's changing his mind and saying : "You wanted aliens ! So you'll get some !"
Quote from: Ulfer on May 22, 2017, 03:05:37 PM
@DoomRulz :
It's not a proof. Scott and his team have made choices and have gone to that direction. It does not prove that there would not be potential for more.
Nothing constrainted Star Wars VII to be the film it is. Nothing imposed that there would be another Death star alternative, that the first planet seen would be desertic and Tatooine-like, that many elements would look a bit too much like variations of what was already known, that there would be too much easter eggs (imho : it felt even more strange since Rogue One was to be made, a movie that is built upon nostalgia, but rightly so, and seems more imaginative to me than Episode VII !).
But choices were made and/or there were directions by the studio, in the context of an industry that mostly wants to play safe with established franchises and sagas. In the SF genre, I liked these last years Interstellar, Gravity, The Arrival, movies that are not part of a franchise, much more than Star Wars and Star Trek new films.
The studio, writer, and director made the choices they did because they know that something too different would not be well-received by fans and something too familiar wouldn't be well-received either. As much money as TFA made, and as well-reviewed as it was by critics, the film has more than its fair share of critical fans who felt the plot was too familiar. If the studio isn't willing to take risks and stick to what fans are used to seeing, what's the point? It does prove the universe is limited because there isn't anything new to present. Perhaps that's what Covenant is trying to break but based on what we were given, it doesn't look like it's working.
Quote from: Ulfer on May 22, 2017, 02:37:53 PM
Er, one some levels, it is a rehash of Alien. ;)
As for the duration, where is the problem with a longer movie for a great audience ? Interstellar was 169 minutes and was well received, and I don't know people who found the theatrical editions of the LOTR movies too long. Give me a great movie, well realized, and the duration won't matter - OK, I'm not a great example of the usual film watcher.
Return of the King's protracted length was interminable. I thought it was quite well known for that.
Quote from: Gash on May 22, 2017, 03:13:31 PM
Return of the King's protracted length was interminable. I thought it was quite well known for that.
Oh? I've never seen the theatrical cut of that film, but I happily eat up the extended edition.
Mind you, I've (obviously) only watched it in the home. I suppose if you really had to take a leak, watching Hobbits cry for ten minutes would be a bit of a strain. :D
QuoteThe studio, writer, and director made the choices they did because they know that something too different would not be well-received by fans and something too familiar wouldn't be well-received either.
You're speaking about fans, which is a limitation : fans represent a tiny fraction of the audience.
There is also the fact of how you consider the movie.
I've watched numerous times Jurassic Park and Star Wars when I was a kid, with much pleasure. And I found that Episode VII was extremely disappointing, and I don't even speak about Jurassic World. It felt like variations of already known things, in a less good way.
I'm of those who expect originality. The problem with many prequels or sequels today is that they've got little of that. They tend to play safe, even with new things, and that's why I, like others, go less and less often to watch this kind of great cinematographic productions. Last week, I've watched at home The Wailing, a really well made movie (imho) by Na Hong-jin. It's not an "author film" (in French we say
un film d'auteur) for a tiny audience, but a movie for a great audience, and it still is beautifully done and clever.
Quote from: GashReturn of the King's protracted length was interminable. I thought it was quite well known for that.
Interminable ? I don't think so. And I'm a Tolkiendil who does not like much Peter Jackson's films (above all the Hobbit ones, though).
If the story is good and requires it, if it needs to be 150 minutes, so be it. Maybe it's less attractive for the cinema or the industry as a whole. But what I want is a good and an ambitious movie, not a lesser one that can be shown 20 times a day in a great cinema.
What is funny is that when I've watched ROTK at the cinema, the crew of the cinema had utterly forgotten our room. There was a little intermission, but the operator had gone away and we had to wait at least 30 minutes for someone to come and make the film go on. :laugh:
I'll be perfectly happy if the blu-ray has an extended cut. If they calm things down before the storm on the Covenant that would be fine. I can just understand why they felt the need to keep that last part pacier.
Quote from: Ulfer on May 22, 2017, 03:29:53 PMIf the story is good and requires it, if it needs to be 150 minutes, so be it. Maybe it's less attractive for the cinema or the industry as a whole. But what I want is a good and an ambitious movie, not a lesser one that can be shown 20 times a day in a great cinema.
Case in point: Ridley's
Kingdom of Heaven. Butchered theatrical cut was crap, the extended version is superb.
Haven't seen the film, sounds a bit divisive so far. This guy is making complaints but his points seem to be very good to me.
QuoteCase in point: Ridley's Kingdom of Heaven. Butchered theatrical cut was crap, the extended version is superb.
Thus alas it's an underrated movie. I find it good and efficient with the extended version, even though I prefer the first part of the movie than the second, I guess. I've watched this version several times, with pleasure.
Quotesounds a bit divisive so far
Yes, it's divisive. But also there are several ways to consider the movie. I mean, you don't rate it the same way if you're just expecting a fun moment with variations about Alien's ideas and tropes, with a bit of Prometheus elements added in the mix, or if you've maybe too great expectations about a saga that you would like to go beyond what has been done up to now.
The fact is I bet there are some persons who wanted just a distracting experience but were not so hyped by the movie, for several reasons.
Ah, the internet. We've got the sum knowledge of all mankind at our fingertips, but nah, let's watch a video of some wanker complaining about a movie. :D
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on May 22, 2017, 03:45:44 PM
Ah, the internet. We've got the sum knowledge of all mankind at our fingertips, but nah, let's watch a video of some wanker complaining about a movie. :D
I hear you, but listen to what he questions, the man has got some good points.
Quote from: DoomRulz on May 22, 2017, 02:07:47 PM
So I gather this thread and the community as a whole has been going nuts with opinions on the film ranging from it was great to what the Hell was Ridley thinking?
I thought it was decent at first. The first hour which was all about exploration was nice because that's what I enjoy the most in a space-centred film; exploration and learning new things. But the problems started to crop up (at least to me) as early as Spoiler
when buddy removes his earpiece for literally no other reason than so the virus can float inside his ear and infect him. It was so obvious it was done purely for the sake of moving the plot forward.
Spoiler
how the Alien's gestation cycle has now gone from what, two days in Alien, 15 minutes or so in AvP, and instantaneous in Covenant and hell, even the film can't be consistent. The first chestburster that comes out of dude in the spacecraft is a youngin' but then later on, the one that comes out of Oram is already a subadult!
Spoiler
Shaw is dead (likely because Noomi Rapace couldn't come to terms with the studio on a pay cheque)
Farris was a complete moron. I'm sorry but there was no reason for her to Spoiler
lock Karine in the medbay. All it would have taken was a couple of seconds to open the door, quickly let Karine out, then lock it again. Alien is contained at least for a few seconds and it would have avoided the disaster that soon followed.
Spoiler
Oram's interactions with David. Oram couldn't have made it any more obvious that he didn't trust David one bit yet he somehow believes him when David says the egg is perfectly safe.
SiL said to me that he felt the only reason the Xeno was in the film was because fans whined about no Xeno in Prometheus. I fully agree with that sentiment. The Xenomorph's presence is forced in and the uber-quick gestation period was obviously done that way because, well, you can't really have a chestburster scurrying around on the planet now can you, while it takes 40 minutes for it to grow into a subadult like in Alien.
How can a person with an IQ even if 10 or under edit the movie and not see all these flaws and the ones mentioned by Ridgetop and others? I would love to know what was going on in the editors minds when they were looking through the final cut...Oh wow this looks believable enough let's leave it in there...the theatrical version should be called the stupid version. This one had more flaws than Prometheus actually. Incredible crap.
Quote from: Ulfer on May 22, 2017, 03:29:53 PM
QuoteThe studio, writer, and director made the choices they did because they know that something too different would not be well-received by fans and something too familiar wouldn't be well-received either.
You're speaking about fans, which is a limitation : fans represent a tiny fraction of the audience.
There is also the fact of how you consider the movie.
I've watched numerous times Jurassic Park and Star Wars when I was a kid, with much pleasure. And I found that Episode VII was extremely disappointing, and I don't even speak about Jurassic World. It felt like variations of already known things, in a less good way.
I'm of those who expect originality. The problem with many prequels or sequels today is that they've got little of that. They tend to play safe, even with new things, and that's why I, like others, go less and less often to watch this kind of great cinematographic productions. Last week, I've watched at home The Wailing, a really well made movie (imho) by Na Hong-jin. It's not an "author film" (in French we say un film d'auteur) for a tiny audience, but a movie for a great audience, and it still is beautifully done and clever.
I feel like we're agreeing here. That's my point. If you can't come up with something new and original, then just leave it be.
QuoteI feel like we're agreeing here. That's my point. If you can't come up with something new and original, then just leave it be.
Or, make it in another genre or medium.
I was elated (and of course terrified) when I played Alien Isolation for the first few hours, for example. I would like a sequel, maybe expanding on some directions (or adding RPG elements, I don't know). But it's not the same thing, I'm the player, the alien chases a character whom I play, it's a whole different experience.
Quote from: DoomRulz on May 22, 2017, 03:59:18 PMIf you can't come up with something new and original, then just leave it be.
That would require integrity on the part of the suits! :D
I like Covenant and Prometheus well enough, but I've long since accepted that the days of films like Alien coming out of Hollywood are well over. Best to stick with indie film, overall. That's where the thinkers are these days.
Quote from: Ulfer on May 22, 2017, 04:05:18 PM
QuoteI feel like we're agreeing here. That's my point. If you can't come up with something new and original, then just leave it be.
Or, make it in another genre or medium.
I was elated (and of course terrified) when I played Alien Isolation for the first few hours, for example. I would like a sequel, maybe expanding on some directions (or adding RPG elements, I don't know). But it's not the same thing, I'm the player, the alien chases a character whom I play, it's a whole different experience.
Yes, certainly the EU allows for a whole range of ideas that don't necessarily translate well to the film's continuity. I guess I should get back to playing Isolation. I've barely touched it.
But there is a problem with the fact there seems to be - not every time, of course, but maybe more often than before - a gap bewteen sometimes clearly unambitious (at least given possibilities of scenarios) blockbusters and very clever but with a limited budget indie movies.
QuoteYes, certainly the EU allows for a whole range of ideas that don't necessarily translate well to the film's continuity. I guess I should get back to playing Isolation. I've barely touched it.
It's not my point here actually. ;)
To sum it up : if someone comes to me and ask if I'm willing to spend money for an Alien-bis or Aliens-bis movie, I will say "no". Even though of course it's cool to see aliens in action, if it's well made, but I wish more ambition for this series of films. However, if he proposes me a good videogame with aliens, à la Alien Isolation, I will maybe say yes (but I expect some imagination and "more" here too, but that's not the same thing).
Quote from: Hubbs on May 22, 2017, 03:42:14 PM
Haven't seen the film, sounds a bit divisive so far. This guy is making complaints but his points seem to be very good to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV-OczgEWO4
You should see it dude. Best Alien-movie since forever!
What an idiot, really, can't believe this guy. Again, I marvel at the stupidity of his complaints. They are so ridiculous it makes my blood boil...I can counter ALL of his arguments but I'm getting tired of it to be honest. Pfffff.....This movie obviously wasn't made for the masses and I'll have to live with that.
Oh well, I'll do the first one just for the sake of it:
How come he doesn't know who Tennessee's wife is?! When they were going down to the planet they were having a conversation which went like this:
Tennesse: 'love you cheesetits'
Rosenthal: 'Love you too, sugard*ck'
I mean, c'mon guys! What's wrong with people nowadays? I believe this guy was born ass first!
And the CGI looked fantastic! Without a doubt, there aren't 2 Fassbenders on this planet, but could you all tell the difference from the real and the computer generated one? I haven't heard anyone say anything about this!
I noticed Walter was taller than David. But that doesn't really matter... lol
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 04:33:58 PMAnd the CGI looked fantastic! Without a doubt, there aren't 2 Fassbenders on this planet, but could you all tell the difference from the real and the computer generated one? I haven't heard anyone say anything about this!
You realise they can just film him separately twice and put both of them in the same frame... Neither Fassbender was created digitally.
So... am I the only one who has a problem with the following discontinuity:
Spoiler
David being the one who created
the Xenomorph?
How can it be that in Prometheus we see:
Spoiler
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8156/7691786250_9a8f27a6ed_b.jpg)
And yet at the same Time it's only later
Spoiler
that the Xenomorph is actually created
?
It makes no sense to me at all.
And what about this guy:
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette4.wikia.nocookie.net%2Favp%2Fimages%2F1%2F18%2FDeacon_prometheusmovie_still.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20130827011031&hash=8be6967d4d62e9e339b9a0c5c088495be1652fcf) Since when can David time travel and go back to design a Deacon?
This movie has Plot Holes the sizes of Pangea, unless someone cares to help me out here.
@Tangakkai : The mural represents the Deacon. There is no problem here...
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 22, 2017, 05:42:48 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 04:33:58 PMAnd the CGI looked fantastic! Without a doubt, there aren't 2 Fassbenders on this planet, but could you all tell the difference from the real and the computer generated one? I haven't heard anyone say anything about this!
You realise they can just film him separately twice and put both of them in the same frame... Neither Fassbender was created digitally.
Please enlighten me. I went to film school at Brussels and received a remakably high score for analysing a movie that wasn't even up my ally. (Vera Drake). I have noticed you're zeroing in on my comments. I expected more from a guy with 7000+ posts. The least you could do is welcome me, but if your purpose here is to pick on new members, I guarantee you picked the wrong one!
Quote from: Tangakkai on May 22, 2017, 05:50:38 PM
So... am I the only one who has a problem with the following discontinuity:
Spoiler
David being the one who created
How can it be that in Prometheus we see: Spoiler
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8156/7691786250_9a8f27a6ed_b.jpg)
And yet at the same Time it's only later Spoiler
that the Xenomorph is actually created
It makes no sense to me at all.
And what about this guy: Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette4.wikia.nocookie.net%2Favp%2Fimages%2F1%2F18%2FDeacon_prometheusmovie_still.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20130827011031&hash=8be6967d4d62e9e339b9a0c5c088495be1652fcf) Since when can David time travel and go back to design a Deacon?
This movie has Plot Holes the sizes of Pangea, unless someone cares to help me out here.
Because Scott likes this vision more. And that mural isn't the xeno.
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 05:57:12 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 22, 2017, 05:42:48 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 04:33:58 PMAnd the CGI looked fantastic! Without a doubt, there aren't 2 Fassbenders on this planet, but could you all tell the difference from the real and the computer generated one? I haven't heard anyone say anything about this!
You realise they can just film him separately twice and put both of them in the same frame... Neither Fassbender was created digitally.
Please enlighten me. I went to film school at Brussels and received a remakably high score for analysing a movie that wasn't even up my ally. (Vera Drake). I have noticed you're zeroing in on my comments. I expected more from a guy with 7000+ posts. The least you could do is welcome me, but if your purpose here is to pick on new members, I guarantee you picked the wrong one!
Optical compositing. Same technique they used on Duncan Jones' "
Moon".
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 05:57:12 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 22, 2017, 05:42:48 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 04:33:58 PMAnd the CGI looked fantastic! Without a doubt, there aren't 2 Fassbenders on this planet, but could you all tell the difference from the real and the computer generated one? I haven't heard anyone say anything about this!
You realise they can just film him separately twice and put both of them in the same frame... Neither Fassbender was created digitally.
Please enlighten me. I went to film school at Brussels and received a remakably high score for analysing a movie that wasn't even up my ally. (Vera Drake). I have noticed you're zeroing in on my comments. I expected more from a guy with 7000+ posts. The least you could do is welcome me, but if your purpose here is to pick on new members, I guarantee you picked the wrong one!
Not picking on you here, but it's a pretty common visual effect. It's been around for a while and used in lots of movies that involve clones or duplicates on screen at the same time for other movies. It's not necessarily cgi, more like computer assisted, although I think it can be accomplished with out computers too. They basically just filmed fassbender twice and used a double for the other character (hence why Walter is slightly taller) for one scene. Then went back a replaced the double's face with fassbender's. They did the same thing for lex in Jurassic park when her stunt double mistakenly looked up at the camera while the raptor was below on the floor.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on May 22, 2017, 06:07:22 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 05:57:12 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 22, 2017, 05:42:48 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 04:33:58 PMAnd the CGI looked fantastic! Without a doubt, there aren't 2 Fassbenders on this planet, but could you all tell the difference from the real and the computer generated one? I haven't heard anyone say anything about this!
You realise they can just film him separately twice and put both of them in the same frame... Neither Fassbender was created digitally.
Please enlighten me. I went to film school at Brussels and received a remakably high score for analysing a movie that wasn't even up my ally. (Vera Drake). I have noticed you're zeroing in on my comments. I expected more from a guy with 7000+ posts. The least you could do is welcome me, but if your purpose here is to pick on new members, I guarantee you picked the wrong one!
Optical compositing. Same technique they used on Duncan Jones' "Moon".
Yeah sure man, with a camera that moves left and right while filming? F*ck me!
Quote from: Tangakkai on May 22, 2017, 05:50:38 PM
So... am I the only one who has a problem with the following discontinuity:
Spoiler
David being the one who created
How can it be that in Prometheus we see: Spoiler
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8156/7691786250_9a8f27a6ed_b.jpg)
And yet at the same Time it's only later Spoiler
that the Xenomorph is actually created
It makes no sense to me at all.
And what about this guy: Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette4.wikia.nocookie.net%2Favp%2Fimages%2F1%2F18%2FDeacon_prometheusmovie_still.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20130827011031&hash=8be6967d4d62e9e339b9a0c5c088495be1652fcf) Since when can David time travel and go back to design a Deacon?
This movie has Plot Holes the sizes of Pangea, unless someone cares to help me out here.
Oh this is my BIGGEST issue. You're definitely not alone my friend :-)
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 06:11:58 PM
Yeah sure man, with a camera that moves left and right while filming? F*ck me!
That's where Fassbender's stunt double comes in.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on May 22, 2017, 06:16:34 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 06:11:58 PM
Yeah sure man, with a camera that moves left and right while filming? F*ck me!
That's where Fassbender's stunt double comes in.
Yeah, and he looks EXACTLY like him. Dude, are you for real?!
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 06:20:03 PM
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on May 22, 2017, 06:16:34 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 06:11:58 PM
Yeah sure man, with a camera that moves left and right while filming? F*ck me!
That's where Fassbender's stunt double comes in.
Yeah, and he looks EXACTLY like him. Dude, are you for real?!
Mmm... it's obvious you are the one with an attitude problem around here not Huda. Perhaps the Corporal could have a little word with you?
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on May 22, 2017, 06:22:20 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 06:20:03 PM
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on May 22, 2017, 06:16:34 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 06:11:58 PM
Yeah sure man, with a camera that moves left and right while filming? F*ck me!
That's where Fassbender's stunt double comes in.
Yeah, and he looks EXACTLY like him. Dude, are you for real?!
I have always been 'l'enfant terrible'. Deal with it or go rat to Hicks. I'm not calling names or anything, so I'm safe (I guess). I'm just furious this movie is getting so much hate. Please refrain from urging a mod to ban me because that's just pathetic.
Mmm... it's obvious you are the one with an attitude problem around here not Huda. Perhaps the Corporal could have a little word with you?
Well...I'm sorry for all of this. I get extremely hostile at times. It's in my nature for some reason and I didn't mean to insult anyone. Please don't hate me, I'm as big as a fan as you guys are. Sorry...
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 06:30:45 PM
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on May 22, 2017, 06:22:20 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 06:20:03 PM
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on May 22, 2017, 06:16:34 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 06:11:58 PM
Yeah sure man, with a camera that moves left and right while filming? F*ck me!
That's where Fassbender's stunt double comes in.
Yeah, and he looks EXACTLY like him. Dude, are you for real?!
I have always been 'l'enfant terrible'. Deal with it or go rat to Hicks. I'm not calling names or anything, so I'm safe (I guess). I'm just furious this movie is getting so much hate. Please refrain from urging a mod to ban me because that's just pathetic.
Mmm... it's obvious you are the one with an attitude problem around here not Huda. Perhaps the Corporal could have a little word with you?
Well...I'm sorry for all of this. I get extremely hostile at times. It's in my nature for some reason and I didn't mean to insult anyone. Please don't hate me, I'm as big as a fan as you guys are. Sorry...
Dude seriously, eighth passenger isn't making this up. It's a common technique that's been around a long time. Check it out :-)
*edit. Corrected "eighth passenger's" name. Autocorrect fail. Haha
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 06:30:45 PM
I have always been 'l'enfant terrible'. Deal with it or go rat to Hicks. I'm not calling names or anything, so I'm safe (I guess). I'm just furious this movie is getting so much hate. Please refrain from urging a mod to ban me because that's just pathetic.
Well...I'm sorry for all of this. I get extremely hostile at times. It's in my nature for some reason and I didn't mean to insult anyone. Please don't hate me, I'm as big as a fan as you guys are. Sorry...
No harm done. And no, I didn't report you either, never had to do it on this site before. Ol' Hicks runs a pretty tight ship around here. ;)
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on May 22, 2017, 06:50:47 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 06:30:45 PM
I have always been 'l'enfant terrible'. Deal with it or go rat to Hicks. I'm not calling names or anything, so I'm safe (I guess). I'm just furious this movie is getting so much hate. Please refrain from urging a mod to ban me because that's just pathetic.
Well...I'm sorry for all of this. I get extremely hostile at times. It's in my nature for some reason and I didn't mean to insult anyone. Please don't hate me, I'm as big as a fan as you guys are. Sorry...
No harm done. And no, I didn't report you either, never had to do it on this site before. Ol' Hicks runs a pretty tight ship around here. ;)
Means the world to me Eight passernger. Cool name, it was originally the title to Alien.
'how long till it blows'? - Hicks - Aliens lol
Anyone with me for some epic Alien(s) quotes...? i feel bad about all this...
"Right."
Quote from: DoomRulz on May 22, 2017, 04:11:39 PM
Quote from: Ulfer on May 22, 2017, 04:05:18 PM
QuoteI feel like we're agreeing here. That's my point. If you can't come up with something new and original, then just leave it be.
Or, make it in another genre or medium.
I was elated (and of course terrified) when I played Alien Isolation for the first few hours, for example. I would like a sequel, maybe expanding on some directions (or adding RPG elements, I don't know). But it's not the same thing, I'm the player, the alien chases a character whom I play, it's a whole different experience.
Yes, certainly the EU allows for a whole range of ideas that don't necessarily translate well to the film's continuity. I guess I should get back to playing Isolation. I've barely touched it.
You should. It's probably the best thing to happen to the Alien franchise in over a decade.
I agree. Isolation was the best entry in the series since the original trilogy in my opinion...
Quote from: Robopadna on May 22, 2017, 05:57:21 PM
Quote from: Tangakkai on May 22, 2017, 05:50:38 PM
So... am I the only one who has a problem with the following discontinuity:
Spoiler
David being the one who created
How can it be that in Prometheus we see: Spoiler
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8156/7691786250_9a8f27a6ed_b.jpg)
And yet at the same Time it's only later Spoiler
that the Xenomorph is actually created
It makes no sense to me at all.
And what about this guy: Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette4.wikia.nocookie.net%2Favp%2Fimages%2F1%2F18%2FDeacon_prometheusmovie_still.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20130827011031&hash=8be6967d4d62e9e339b9a0c5c088495be1652fcf) Since when can David time travel and go back to design a Deacon?
This movie has Plot Holes the sizes of Pangea, unless someone cares to help me out here.
Because Scott likes this vision more. And that mural isn't the xeno.
It looks pretty f**king like a xeno. That or either a goat then. WTF. They dont give a shit about continuity! Cmon guys thats obvious. Its all about money not the story.
Im so waiting for a sci-fi mocking Prometheus & Covenant where someone wants to take off his helmet or exit the dropship without helmet and everyone shoot him down how idiot he is and he is not allowed to do it because million ways you can die on a foreing planet.
That would instantly put Ridley in his place :'D not to mention the major flaws of his movies.
Quote from: RidgeTop on May 22, 2017, 07:19:08 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on May 22, 2017, 04:11:39 PM
Quote from: Ulfer on May 22, 2017, 04:05:18 PM
QuoteI feel like we're agreeing here. That's my point. If you can't come up with something new and original, then just leave it be.
Or, make it in another genre or medium.
I was elated (and of course terrified) when I played Alien Isolation for the first few hours, for example. I would like a sequel, maybe expanding on some directions (or adding RPG elements, I don't know). But it's not the same thing, I'm the player, the alien chases a character whom I play, it's a whole different experience.
Yes, certainly the EU allows for a whole range of ideas that don't necessarily translate well to the film's continuity. I guess I should get back to playing Isolation. I've barely touched it.
You should. It's probably the best thing to happen to the Alien franchise in over a decade.
My only problem is, as you know, I love fast-paced shooters like DOOM and Quake. I can admit Isolation is very awesome for its uniqueness, but it's sooooooo slow.
Quote from: DoomRulz on May 22, 2017, 08:19:50 PM
Quote from: RidgeTop on May 22, 2017, 07:19:08 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on May 22, 2017, 04:11:39 PM
Quote from: Ulfer on May 22, 2017, 04:05:18 PM
QuoteI feel like we're agreeing here. That's my point. If you can't come up with something new and original, then just leave it be.
Or, make it in another genre or medium.
I was elated (and of course terrified) when I played Alien Isolation for the first few hours, for example. I would like a sequel, maybe expanding on some directions (or adding RPG elements, I don't know). But it's not the same thing, I'm the player, the alien chases a character whom I play, it's a whole different experience.
Yes, certainly the EU allows for a whole range of ideas that don't necessarily translate well to the film's continuity. I guess I should get back to playing Isolation. I've barely touched it.
You should. It's probably the best thing to happen to the Alien franchise in over a decade.
My only problem is, as you know, I love fast-paced shooters like DOOM and Quake. I can admit Isolation is very awesome for its uniqueness, but it's sooooooo slow.
I love both kinds of games equally.
Quote from: Engineer on May 22, 2017, 07:22:22 PM
I agree. Isolation was the best entry in the series since the original trilogy in my opinion...
yes, i feel like isolation is really, really really so good that it feels like a movie in itself.
it's so good, that it should have been an actual movie.
still, the fact is, that we're saying that, is really because covenant didn't deliver at all.
what a mess.
i can't grasp on how many ingredients for a great movie there was and how utterly flabbergasted i am that it is so severely underwhelming and stupid.
A moment of awe and wonder and confusion about the derelict should have been present. Exploring the derelict could have been absolutely great,
to then get infected somehow. Decide to go back to the lander - which should have been damaged in such way during the landing that it needs repairs to be able to lift off again. Some body scans show that apart from 2 crewmembers, the rest of the crew is in perfect health.
They leave the 2 sick crewmembers that have gotten a detection of 'foreign cells presence' and the 2 girls that die in the movie stay with them to run tests and try to 'heal' them. scans show a tumor-like growth on the back of one of the members and around the throat/lungs of the other member, which causes one severe back pain, and the other respitory problems. they demand repairs go about harder because they must go to quarantine aboard the covenant to do professional work.
meanwhile, the rest of the team took off again to set up a campsite or a more suitable landing location for better transfer from ship to ground.
quickly, the scenario unfolds of the back and throatbuster. ejogo's character is in medbay with both of the sick members when they start shaking violently and calls for faris to get to sickbay fast as she was doing repairs to the ship so they can take off. ejogo's character gets attacked by one of the neomorphs and when faris tries to get it off with a knife it bleeds acid harms ejogo's character more, then the other neo comes after faris, who tries to escape but slips and has her gun in between the door which causes the neo to escape, after her. she kicks it away outside with a fire extinguisher, to which it bails away and the other neo sees her so she grabs a gun and fires at it. she uses the flamethrower function but sets the compartment on fire and is still attacked, then shoots around, and causes a explosive canister to combust and BOOM. gone lander.
the rest of the team already heard the commotion, runs to them, and is too late and immediately gets attacked. walter does his heroic saving of daniels,
and then david appears,
after a minute when they calm down on what just happened, he says they need to go away as it's not safe in the open, and he can provide shelter. they follow him through the field of corpses, which is much more emphasized on, and shown much more the horror.
when they enter the citadel or the temple, they look around in confusion and say 'stop!' loudly when david guides them further, demanding explanations for what the fck is going and what the fck has happened here and how the hell he got here, and also where is shaw. they found her necklace but where the hell is she?
david explains that she didn't make it. walter demands he tells them what has happened there and what this place is.
david then explains what happened after prometheus. we are shown the prologue scene with shaw. the docking. the vase dropping.
he tells them that he had no control over what was happening as the ship was in some sort of auto-pilot function and he watched the devestation below as the ship they were on was a weapon of mass extermination.
That the planet was not the homeworld of the engineers they ran into on lv-223. the ship they were on left that planet 2000 years ago, and the civilization that has the same human DNA as the engineers on LV-223 was waiting for their return. They had built their city around a vast circle in the ground, where tthe scorpionaut was hidden within for all that time untill the return of the juggernaut with david and shaw. They worshipped the centre, and when suddenly the juggernaut entered the atmosphere, the scorpinaut appeared, and the civilization ran in amaze and religious fanatism towards the machines they had no idea of the doom it was carrying, offering things to the gods they thought were returning to take them into walhalla.
the vases were dropped like bombs and were then subsequentially shot by some electrostatic weapon in one hard beam which shot a powerfull supersonic wave of thunder to the ground, instantly charring, electrocuting and killing every living thing in a radius of 30 miles.
david claims then that whilst trying to stop the mayhem unfolding, shaw tried to pilot the ship away from the docking station and ignited it's engines - nothing like you have ever seen before, brilliantly simple and logical - but were catapulted into the mountains in doing so, the shock being so violent it killed shaw upon impact.
the video they shaw was a recording of shaw whilst leaving lv-223. the impact caused the signal to be broadcast, and out of respect for shaw's fate, david decided to leave it, not expecting anybody to arrive there anyway.
"but now you are here". please, make yourselves at home.
well i'll stop here, as i would only clog this thread with what i personally feel would have been endlessly better and more open.
so sad.
i can only hope for a directors' cut to fix some of the issues and atleast make it bareable.
Too bad Aliens: Colonial Marines wasn't any good...Absolutely badass trailer imo:
Quote from: Engineer on May 22, 2017, 06:11:49 PMNot picking on you here, but it's a pretty common visual effect. It's been around for a while and used in lots of movies that involve clones or duplicates on screen at the same time for other movies. It's not necessarily cgi, more like computer assisted, although I think it can be accomplished with out computers too.
It doesn't even require computers. There are plenty of films out there that effectively blended multiple copies of the same person on the screen at once long before anyone thought it was possible to use computers for special effects.
Hell, even
Red Dwarf did it for an early episode with two Arnold Rimmers in it, and that show could barely afford sets, let alone computer generated effects work that was still in its infancy and insanely expensive at the time :laugh:
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 22, 2017, 09:55:34 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 22, 2017, 06:11:49 PMNot picking on you here, but it's a pretty common visual effect. It's been around for a while and used in lots of movies that involve clones or duplicates on screen at the same time for other movies. It's not necessarily cgi, more like computer assisted, although I think it can be accomplished with out computers too.
It doesn't even require computers. There are plenty of films out there that effectively blended multiple copies of the same person on the screen at once long before anyone thought it was possible to use computers for special effects.
Hell, even Red Dwarf did it for an early episode with two Arnold Rimmers in it, and that show could barely afford sets, let alone computer generated effects work that was still in its infancy and insanely expensive at the time :laugh:
Lol now I'm imaging David meeting Rimmer.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 22, 2017, 09:55:34 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 22, 2017, 06:11:49 PMNot picking on you here, but it's a pretty common visual effect. It's been around for a while and used in lots of movies that involve clones or duplicates on screen at the same time for other movies. It's not necessarily cgi, more like computer assisted, although I think it can be accomplished with out computers too.
It doesn't even require computers. There are plenty of films out there that effectively blended multiple copies of the same person on the screen at once long before anyone thought it was possible to use computers for special effects.
Hell, even Red Dwarf did it for an early episode with two Arnold Rimmers in it, and that show could barely afford sets, let alone computer generated effects work that was still in its infancy and insanely expensive at the time :laugh:
Yep! That's pretty much what I thought, but I'm no expert so I didn't want to speak out of place and stick my foot in my mouth. Lol.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 22, 2017, 09:55:34 PM
It doesn't even require computers. There are plenty of films out there that effectively blended multiple copies of the same person on the screen at once long before anyone thought it was possible to use computers for special effects.
Yes, it can be done optically in a static shot pretty easily too, provided the actors don't cross the invisible 'line' between their screen spaces.
Take one: Actor on Left | Double on Right
Take two: Double on Left | Actor on Right
Then you cut the negative down the middle and splice the left side of take one with the right side of take two. Voila! Did it for one of my own short films (though digitally, I confess, but the principle is the same)
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on May 22, 2017, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 22, 2017, 09:55:34 PM
It doesn't even require computers. There are plenty of films out there that effectively blended multiple copies of the same person on the screen at once long before anyone thought it was possible to use computers for special effects.
Yes, it can be done optically in a static shot pretty easily too, provided the actors don't cross the invisible 'line' between their screen spaces.
Take one: Actor on Left | Double on Right
Take two: Double on Left | Actor on Right
Then you cut the negative down the middle and splice the left side of take one with the right side of take two. Voila! Did it for one of my own short films (though digitally, I confess)
Exactly, it only works when your camera is stationary. Cool name Mr. Clemens, your IQ is certainly over 80 ;) :D
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 10:21:26 PM
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on May 22, 2017, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 22, 2017, 09:55:34 PM
It doesn't even require computers. There are plenty of films out there that effectively blended multiple copies of the same person on the screen at once long before anyone thought it was possible to use computers for special effects.
Yes, it can be done optically in a static shot pretty easily too, provided the actors don't cross the invisible 'line' between their screen spaces.
Take one: Actor on Left | Double on Right
Take two: Double on Left | Actor on Right
Then you cut the negative down the middle and splice the left side of take one with the right side of take two. Voila! Did it for one of my own short films (though digitally, I confess)
Exactly, it only works when your camera is stationary. Cool name Mr. Clemens, your IQ is certainly over 80 ;) :D
That's talking pre-digital though. It's now completely possible to have the camera go where it wants and still double your actor. Motion control + compositing.
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on May 22, 2017, 10:26:21 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 10:21:26 PM
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on May 22, 2017, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 22, 2017, 09:55:34 PM
It doesn't even require computers. There are plenty of films out there that effectively blended multiple copies of the same person on the screen at once long before anyone thought it was possible to use computers for special effects.
Yes, it can be done optically in a static shot pretty easily too, provided the actors don't cross the invisible 'line' between their screen spaces.
Take one: Actor on Left | Double on Right
Take two: Double on Left | Actor on Right
Then you cut the negative down the middle and splice the left side of take one with the right side of take two. Voila! Did it for one of my own short films (though digitally, I confess)
Exactly, it only works when your camera is stationary. Cool name Mr. Clemens, your IQ is certainly over 80 ;) :D
That's talking pre-digital though. It's now completely possible to have the camera go where it wants and still double your actor. Motion control + compositing.
Exactly, the shots have been enhanced with CGI, hence my point.
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 11:03:29 PM
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on May 22, 2017, 10:26:21 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 10:21:26 PM
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on May 22, 2017, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 22, 2017, 09:55:34 PM
It doesn't even require computers. There are plenty of films out there that effectively blended multiple copies of the same person on the screen at once long before anyone thought it was possible to use computers for special effects.
Yes, it can be done optically in a static shot pretty easily too, provided the actors don't cross the invisible 'line' between their screen spaces.
Take one: Actor on Left | Double on Right
Take two: Double on Left | Actor on Right
Then you cut the negative down the middle and splice the left side of take one with the right side of take two. Voila! Did it for one of my own short films (though digitally, I confess)
Exactly, it only works when your camera is stationary. Cool name Mr. Clemens, your IQ is certainly over 80 ;) :D
That's talking pre-digital though. It's now completely possible to have the camera go where it wants and still double your actor. Motion control + compositing.
Exactly, the shots have been enhanced with CGI, hence my point.
But it's not computer "generated" it's just manipulated using a computer as the interface. It was generated by actually filming fassbender a second time
Quote from: Engineer on May 22, 2017, 11:22:16 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 11:03:29 PM
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on May 22, 2017, 10:26:21 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 22, 2017, 10:21:26 PM
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on May 22, 2017, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 22, 2017, 09:55:34 PM
It doesn't even require computers. There are plenty of films out there that effectively blended multiple copies of the same person on the screen at once long before anyone thought it was possible to use computers for special effects.
Yes, it can be done optically in a static shot pretty easily too, provided the actors don't cross the invisible 'line' between their screen spaces.
Take one: Actor on Left | Double on Right
Take two: Double on Left | Actor on Right
Then you cut the negative down the middle and splice the left side of take one with the right side of take two. Voila! Did it for one of my own short films (though digitally, I confess)
Exactly, it only works when your camera is stationary. Cool name Mr. Clemens, your IQ is certainly over 80 ;) :D
That's talking pre-digital though. It's now completely possible to have the camera go where it wants and still double your actor. Motion control + compositing.
Exactly, the shots have been enhanced with CGI, hence my point.
But it's not computer "generated" it's just manipulated using a computer as the interface. It was generated by actually filming fassbender a second time
It's a technique from the 19th century, ..They don't use it anymore these days and it would be supremely difficult to make it all look believable.
Quote from: Ulfer on May 22, 2017, 05:56:44 PM
@Tangakkai : The mural represents the Deacon. There is no problem here...
You know, this mural was also in Prometheus:
(https://i.imgur.com/QL5eXMm.jpg)
Quote from: szkoki on May 22, 2017, 08:08:07 PM
Quote from: Robopadna on May 22, 2017, 05:57:21 PM
Quote from: Tangakkai on May 22, 2017, 05:50:38 PM
So... am I the only one who has a problem with the following discontinuity:
Spoiler
David being the one who created
How can it be that in Prometheus we see: Spoiler
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8156/7691786250_9a8f27a6ed_b.jpg)
And yet at the same Time it's only later Spoiler
that the Xenomorph is actually created
It makes no sense to me at all.
And what about this guy: Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette4.wikia.nocookie.net%2Favp%2Fimages%2F1%2F18%2FDeacon_prometheusmovie_still.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20130827011031&hash=8be6967d4d62e9e339b9a0c5c088495be1652fcf) Since when can David time travel and go back to design a Deacon?
This movie has Plot Holes the sizes of Pangea, unless someone cares to help me out here.
Because Scott likes this vision more. And that mural isn't the xeno.
It looks pretty f**king like a xeno. That or either a goat then. WTF. They dont give a shit about continuity! Cmon guys thats obvious. Its all about money not the story.
Im so waiting for a sci-fi mocking Prometheus & Covenant where someone wants to take off his helmet or exit the dropship without helmet and everyone shoot him down how idiot he is and he is not allowed to do it because million ways you can die on a foreing planet.
That would instantly put Ridley in his place :'D not to mention the major flaws of his movies.
Ridley Scott has a tendency to destroy what he created, and he loves to rationalize a lot of legendary, symbolic, mythical stuff etc (exodus). I think this is sterile in terms of creativity, and obviously in terms on continuity, it was plain to see in covenant (facehugger that impregnates in seconds, the mural in prometheus), I still thought there were some enjoyable moments like the first two neomoprhs births, which were tense, but overall it wasn't that great I think, not absolute garbage, but forgettable
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on May 23, 2017, 02:27:58 AM
Ridley Scott loves to rationalize a lot of legendary, symbolic, mythical stuff etc (Exodus).
Rationalising religious delusions was a worthy idea. It got me on board with it.
Saw it a couple of days ago. Really weak movie. Neomorphs felt like they had absolutely no reason to exist other than to give the characters something to run from early on and the way the Xeno was handled both destroys previous canon and raises questions that never needed to exist.
I think I'm just done with Alien movies, there hasn't been a good one in like 30 f**king years. I didn't even exist until Alien 3 came out so I'm just doomed to this shit forever I guess.
Oh and a big problem in covenant... The stupidity of some characters... I know this kind of movie need mistakes to be made by the people in it in order to provoke something, but this is too much mistakes in one movie, a lazy way to create danger and kill off underdeveloped characters (Rosenthal, Ankor haha I hardly remember his face), and when they get just a little development, they make the stupidest things ever (Oram with the egg, come on man...). The twist with David is very predictable in my opinion, same with sergent Lope... And none of this was actually scary to me, at any moment, just a little tension when the shit hit the fans with the first two neomorphs, but not much more after that. Still liked some visuals, but that's thin.
Movie is nicely ultra-violent, and neomorphs are kinda..unwholesome, actors are playing respectably, especially David! He's like a God. Xenomorphs are..typical, and finally had their origins explained in a way which to some extent is acceptable, since you know, David is not really human, he might be something more profound just like the xenomorphs.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on May 23, 2017, 02:27:58 AM
Quote from: szkoki on May 22, 2017, 08:08:07 PM
Quote from: Robopadna on May 22, 2017, 05:57:21 PM
Quote from: Tangakkai on May 22, 2017, 05:50:38 PM
So... am I the only one who has a problem with the following discontinuity:
Spoiler
David being the one who created
How can it be that in Prometheus we see: Spoiler
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8156/7691786250_9a8f27a6ed_b.jpg)
And yet at the same Time it's only later Spoiler
that the Xenomorph is actually created
It makes no sense to me at all.
And what about this guy: Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette4.wikia.nocookie.net%2Favp%2Fimages%2F1%2F18%2FDeacon_prometheusmovie_still.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20130827011031&hash=8be6967d4d62e9e339b9a0c5c088495be1652fcf) Since when can David time travel and go back to design a Deacon?
This movie has Plot Holes the sizes of Pangea, unless someone cares to help me out here.
Because Scott likes this vision more. And that mural isn't the xeno.
It looks pretty f**king like a xeno. That or either a goat then. WTF. They dont give a shit about continuity! Cmon guys thats obvious. Its all about money not the story.
Im so waiting for a sci-fi mocking Prometheus & Covenant where someone wants to take off his helmet or exit the dropship without helmet and everyone shoot him down how idiot he is and he is not allowed to do it because million ways you can die on a foreing planet.
That would instantly put Ridley in his place :'D not to mention the major flaws of his movies.
Ridley Scott has a tendency to destroy what he created, and he loves to rationalize a lot of legendary, symbolic, mythical stuff etc (exodus). I think this is sterile in terms of creativity, and obviously in terms on continuity, it was plain to see in covenant (facehugger that impregnates in seconds, the mural in prometheus), I still thought there were some enjoyable moments like the first two neomoprhs births, which were tense, but overall it wasn't that great I think, not absolute garbage, but forgettable
That's a very percise term you are using: "sterile of creativity". I think that's the main reason why this film just left me cold. Not that I hate it, I just feel absolutely nothing... void of emotions while watching it. I'm only left with so many flaws and continuity problems.
To the guys saying that the mural isn't a Xeno or the other guy saying that the Deacon has nothing to do with a Xenomorph: That doesn't change the problem one bit. Once you have established that a creature has been created in a certain way through a certain process, how come then there have been identical looking creatures beforehand. It becomes an obsolete cycle in itself. It doesn't make any sense, unless:
Spoiler
David copied an old Species with his Xenomorph.
I seriously doubt though if Sir Scott put any thinking into this. He probably simply didn't give a shit what came before this movie and simply wanted to have Xenos in it. I get that. It's a business decision. But don't try to justify this with logical answers, there aren't any in this case.
Also, I was not very fond of the CGI effects of the monsters, for the rest it was great (the ship etc), but the creatures looked too much computer generated in my opinion, and I was disappointed. On the other hand the gore stuff was really cool, all the practical stuff in this regard were perfect I think (man, the two neomorphs births wow !), it's a shame the CGI shots of the creatures didn't live up to that
Saw it yestarday and I was REALY pleased With it ;D Was about time they took it a bit back to the original. Also loved the way they tied it in With promotheus. SPOILERS Making David the creator of the xenomorph I though makes it even more terrifying. Alien is back baby thumbs up ;)
Quote from: Aliens_Diner86 on May 23, 2017, 02:11:43 PM
Saw it yestarday and I was REALY pleased With it ;D Was about time they took it a bit back to the original. Also loved the way they tied it in With promotheus. SPOILERS Making David the creator of the xenomorph I though makes it even more terrifying. Alien is back baby thumbs up ;)
I felt the exact opposite about it.
Quote from: Engineer on May 23, 2017, 02:17:30 PM
Quote from: Aliens_Diner86 on May 23, 2017, 02:11:43 PM
Saw it yestarday and I was REALY pleased With it ;D Was about time they took it a bit back to the original. Also loved the way they tied it in With promotheus. SPOILERS Making David the creator of the xenomorph I though makes it even more terrifying. Alien is back baby thumbs up ;)
I felt the exact opposite about it.
Same. It feels like Scott didn't bother to watch his own movie again before making some of these decisions. Of course they'll try to explain it in a sequel but I bet that will only make it worse.
Quote from: Deathbearer on May 23, 2017, 02:41:14 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 23, 2017, 02:17:30 PM
Quote from: Aliens_Diner86 on May 23, 2017, 02:11:43 PM
Saw it yestarday and I was REALY pleased With it ;D Was about time they took it a bit back to the original. Also loved the way they tied it in With promotheus. SPOILERS Making David the creator of the xenomorph I though makes it even more terrifying. Alien is back baby thumbs up ;)
I felt the exact opposite about it.
Same. It feels like Scott didn't bother to watch his own movie again before making some of these decisions. Of course they'll try to explain it in a sequel but I bet that will only make it worse.
That's my fear too
Hmmm... Well I loved it !! Im one of the ones that feels were in good hands With Ridley onboard.
What was it u did not like exatctly ?? just curious ;)
Quote from: Aliens_Diner86 on May 23, 2017, 03:21:57 PM
Hmmm... Well I loved it !! Im one of the ones that feels were in good hands With Ridley onboard.
What was it u did not like exatctly ?? just curious ;)
I feel it's not inline with the story. I've never liked the idea of the prequel angle. It de-mystifies "alien." And now with David being the creator only 2 decades before the nostromo finds the derelict, it loses that ancient feel, and seems less 'alien' to me. Now it's just some crazy robots science experiement! Plus, the black goo from Prometheus and the 'pathogen' idea I've never been on board with; body morphing horror has never worked for me. It just comes off as cheesy and goofy when a character is mutated by black goop. It hasn't worked for me in any other movie before, and it doesn't really work for me now. Alien was unique, but now it's losing that uniqueness and adopting an over used mysterious black goo concept. I liked the fact that the black goo was less of the focus this time, but it was still there and an important plot element. It also seems to me like Ridley is not interested in any lore that proceeded his movies that he wasn't apart of. This feels like a retcon of everything after alien (getting rid of the queen) or possibly a reboot; if that's true and turns out to be the case, I'm going to be very upset with this whole prequel effort, Ridley and fox.
Quote from: Aliens_Diner86 on May 23, 2017, 03:21:57 PM
Hmmm... Well I loved it !! Im one of the ones that feels were in good hands With Ridley onboard.
What was it u did not like exatctly ?? just curious ;)
The fact that Ridley Scott damages his own mythology by rationalizing it
Spoiler
(David created the xenomorph, so it's not mysterious anymore)
, I think it doesn't need rationalization, but since we're going to get it anyway, we could expect at least some quality in the execution... which I didn't find in the movie, the direction was kinda weak, except for the neomorphs births, the characters were almost all underdeveloped (so no real emotion when they get killed), the gore stuff was very good though, but that's not much for a whole movie
The xeno hasn't really been mysterious since Aliens; when it became a franchise based on the character of Ripley.
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 23, 2017, 05:35:58 PM
The xeno hasn't really been mysterious since Aliens; when it became a franchise based on the character of Ripley.
I beg to differ... the mystery I'm referring to is it's origin. I never wanted to know, but Ridley gave it to us anyway. Same with the space jockey, and it has not done the trick for me...
Quote from: Engineer on May 23, 2017, 05:40:34 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 23, 2017, 05:35:58 PM
The xeno hasn't really been mysterious since Aliens; when it became a franchise based on the character of Ripley.
I beg to differ... the mystery I'm referring to is it's origin. I never wanted to know, but Ridley gave it to us anyway. Same with the space jockey, and it has not done the trick for me...
They could've made a decent prequel, but they reached too far. The mistake was trying to tie the mythos into an explanation for all of human existence. That's not exactly what I was hungry for when thinking about what the origins of the Xenomorph could be. Instead of getting the origin of the Xenomorph in terms of what their home planet might be like, we got the origin of humanity and a very lazy design that revealed the Space Jockey not to be an interesting type of biomechanoid Giger-alien, but a space suit worn by a plain white bald guy with big muscles.
I've watched the movie twice, here are some of my thoughts.
I really liked the visuals and photography of the movie, but that's the least we can expect from Ridley Scott we know he can create beautiful movies.
Loved the creatures and the design of the Engineer city, David's workshop was also amazing wish they would have show more these two scenes.
The script had a lot more potential, the characters have made some stupid decisions sometimes and there were some plot holes as well. The biggest one that I still cannot forgive for the writers somehow is when David cuts his hair to look exactly like Walter but no one is reacting, like it's fully normal.
I think the biggest issue of the movie was that it wanted to be the follow up of Prometheus and at the same time a true Alien movie, well it doesn't really succeeded.
Also some parts were heavily edited and cutted, specially the last part of the movie. The life cycle of the creatures was way too fast as well, this is maybe also because of the edits. I would have stayed like a half an hour more easily, I really hope there will be and extended director's cut.
The ending was left so open, I mean I have not clue where could the next episode go. I' m pretty sure in one of those pods there will be some famous actor or more haha.
The score was fantastic I think Jed Kurzel did a great job, it was good to hear the references from the other movies.
I really loved Prometheus, it was so mysterious and something fresh by introducing the Engineers so obviously I was expecting more screen time from them. It's a bit confusing if this was indeed their home planet, because if it really was they had only one city? Also such an ancient and advanced civilization cannot live on a single planet right, I mean they were able to travel through the galaxy and create life they must have populated many planets. Also it seemed like they were happy to see one of their ships arrive as they were cheering, (little that they know it's not piloted by one of them) so they were sort of expecting the arrival of one of their ships. It felt like these Engineers were actually retired from their technology, by the way the city looked stunning with that ancient roman architecture. Anyway I really wish and hope to see and learn more about them in the sequel or maybe we get even a spin off in the future, because there are so many questions left open.
Also they knew about the Xeno, I mean there is a mural in Prometheus which actually looks like the Deacon on closer look. So David has recreated this creature and perfect it, the result was the look of the classic Xenomorph.
So all in all it was a good movie, but it had much more potential and I've expected something a bit different but I'll probably watch it a third time as well so I will take my part from the box office haha.
By the way I took with me some of my friends both times, some of them doesn't liked Prometheus at all but even them wanted to see and know more about the Engineers and actually everyone I've asked and discussed with. So Ridley and Fox if you are reading this in the next movie we want more Engineers, like a lot of them! :D There is so much potential if they would go that direction.
isnt David too much of a human in this after Prometheus?
Quote from: szkoki on May 23, 2017, 08:46:57 PM
isnt David too much of a human in this after Prometheus?
I think that's kind of the point. He's become more human, without even noticing it himself. He even makes mistakes like we do, like when he thought Byron wrote Ozymandias. Michael Fassbender also said David has more human traits, in an interview some time ago.
now its just about a serial killer. also a big downside for the Alien universe
https://youtu.be/KcJs4qJPQ_M?t=89
Quote from: Predaker on May 22, 2017, 03:48:35 AM
Quote from: RidgeTop on May 21, 2017, 08:31:17 AM
This is going to be ranty, but I attempted to be as fair as I could in my own personal assessment and refrain from bitching. I'm putting it in a spoiler tag to save everyone the wall of text.
I personally give the movie a five out of ten. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about it, and this "you're not a true fan" business is silly. Anyone can be a true fan and like or dislike the film.
Spoiler
Alien: Covenant review, oh boy, here we go...
I'll be really impressed if anyone makes it through all of this.
I just got back from my second viewing, wanted to give it another chance before finalizing my opinion.
These are my opinions, my speculations, and my frustrations, I'm just sharing my thoughts here and I don't expect anyone to agree with me. It is worth seeing, and anyone who is interested in it should make up their own mind. If you liked the movie, great! I wish I could.
Alien: Covenant is a bad film.
Not only is it a bad film, it's a bad Alien Prequel, and it's a bad Prometheus Sequel.
It's my least favorite of them all, out of any of the Alien, Predator, or Alien Vs. Predator movies. I like it less than Prometheus.
It brings me no pleasure to say this or have this opinion, anyone who knows me will know I was excited for this movie and wanted it to be great. However, I knew after Prometheus and from some of the rumors I was hearing that my expectations should be measured, so I made sure to keep them as low as I could for the release of an Alien film. It didn't help. Like Prometheus, I watched it again, hoping it would grow on me. It didn't.
I realize this, coming from someone who defends the Alien Vs. Predator movies, won't be a popular assessment. That's OK, it's mine and I'm just sharing it. I'll get to why I think those films, while not as well crafted, served the franchise/s better and had more passion in them.
I'm going to go through the whole plot here. If you just want to see my pros, cons and overall thoughts, skip to the end.
------------------
We start with an intriguing scene where David awakens and meets his creator, Peter Weyland for the first time. There is an interesting back and forth here between creator and creation, and it's clear that this is the theme the movie is going to be focusing on, along with David himself. The scene ends with Weyland, uncomfortable with David's line of questioning, requesting for tea right next to him as a power play. I suppose this is the beginning of David's daddy issues.
Really this movie should have been called David: Covenant.
Skip ahead 10 years after Prometheus and we're with the Covenant, a colonization ship, on its long journey to the planet Origae 6. The ship, its solar sails extended is impacted by a random neutrino burst. Walter awakens the crew, and James Franco's character, Captian Branson remains in his pod. Something is clearly wrong with his pod and before long the inside of it bursts into flames, killing him. This was the first part of the movie I was a bit confused by. You would think, due to rank, Walter would be awakening him first. The pod did not look particularly damaged, and they don't build these things with emergency releases?
In any case, the religious character, Oram, assumes command and is uneasy with his perceptions of the crew judging him.
I enjoyed the scene with the characters repairing the damaged ship, we get some really good views of the Covenant ship, as well as the impressive, practically built and moebius inspired spacesuits. Also, seeing a scene straight from Alien, where they eject their dead crew-member's body out of an airlock and into space was a bit of a treat.
As they are about to depart they receive a transmission. A ghostly image who is singing. Tennessee recognizes the song. I guess John Denver is still pretty well known a century from now? Walter, the android on the ship with the same look of David, is logical, straightforward, and yet subtly compassionate. I like him as a character.
They track the transmission to its source on a nearby planet, much closer than their terraforming destination. Oram decides they should check it out as it could potentially be a better candidate for their colony. This alone would be a bad reason and I'm glad they decided to throw in the "This is a human transmission and we're obligated to investigate" bit. Daniels, our female main character, calls this out as a bad idea.
After descending through the stormy atmosphere to the planet's surface, a scene that had distant vibes of the dropship descent in Aliens, they land on the edge of a lake and begin their trek. They have no protective suits, or procedure for an initial walk-around.
Even the astronauts in Prometheus were not that stupid.
Yes they mention the atmospheric contents but like any new planet landed on, you would think initial pathogen tests would need to be made. Space truckers were more concerned with decontamination and quarantine.
Eventually they come across the crashed ship that Shaw and David used to escape LV-223. I had to admit, their reaction to coming across a ship of potential Alien origin was pretty subdued. We see spores infecting a couple crew members. One puts his damn face in it, pokes it, and notices it release. He doesn't think to tell anyone he might be infected once he starts showing symptoms, a la Holloway in Prometheus. They find the origin of the signal and realize that Shaw and David were aboard the ship. Once two characters get sick they rush their way back to the lander.
Two people make it back first, one infected, one accompanying him. They get to the lander and Karine begs for Farris' help. They go to the medbay, Faris proceeds to lock them in, afraid of an outbreak (even though it wouldn't matter as her face had just been sprayed with blood). Karine realizes something emerging after... hugging a potentially infected guy? She begs Farris to open the door. Farris, in a panic, leaves again, runs to grab a weapon. The Neomorph emerges, I guess it's called the bloodburster for this one. Immediately Karine kicks it back, it viciously attacks her and tears her face up. Farris proceeds to open the door, slip on the bloody floor and shoot the ceiling, crawl back out the door, breaking her foot upon it closing. The bloodburster, the one that was just kicked into the wall a moment earlier proceeds to BREAK THE GLASS on the bulkhead door. Farris shoots around the room in a panic, hitting some tanks and blowing up the lander.
The other bloodburster emerges from the throat of the other victim. I'm not using their names because these two people have not been established as characters, so I really don't care what is happening to them other than seeing the thrilling gore of it. The Neomorph comes back LITERALLY SECONDS LATER, NEARLY FULLY GROWN. They shoot at the Neomorph as it takes off Walter's hand. David comes in and fires a flare, I guess the Neomorphs don't like light too much as they scurry off.
David leads them to the Engineer "Necropolis," which like with the Juggernaut, the group seems awfully calm about. This looks ripped straight out of Rome, as if it's the Vatican itself. We get some Prometheus vibes here, seeing a temple like interior with large stone heads. David explains his backstory and asks a few questions of his own.
It's here where Daniels talks to Walter and says what really should have been the tagline of the film:
"Nothing here makes any sense."
Most of the second act is here. We get some intriguing conversations between Walter and David. They have a strange flute-playing scene together.
"I'll do the fingering."
At one point they walked into a garden that was Ripped straight from the Arnold Böcklin painting "Isle of the Dead." It's here where David reveals that Shaw is dead and that he loved her. Making up a story about how the Juggernaut accidentally deployed its cargo and in the confusion their ship crashed.
We see a flashback where David drops the ships deadly cargo on the Engineer city. Why? Who knows. Some glances of female engineers. This is their home planet but they all live in one city? Why were there gates confining them to the courtyard? They are an advanced space-faring race with no defenses? Lots of questions here that we've been waiting for since the end of Prometheus five years ago. If you were hoping for any satisfying answers you're out of luck. The black goo instantly mummifies them? I suppose this is another instance of it doing whatever the plot calls for.
Back to the main story, in true horror movie fashion, Rosenthal goes off on her own to "freshen up" in a dark Alien city she knows nothing about... sure. Of course the Neomorph creeps in and bites her head off. Scott apparently wants us to really get this as going forward there are three extended shots of her head floating in the water.
During this whole time the crew of the Covenant ship is trying to re-establish contact with the ground crew. There's some good tension between the three bridge crew Members, with Tennessee wanting to risk the Covenant by flying into the storm.
The acting captian, Oram walks in to find the Neomorph munching on Rosenthal's corpse. David has already arrived here and is apparently trying to gain the Neomorph's trust. It strangely stands up straight and walks over to David. Oram has had enough and kills the Neomorph with his assault rifle. David has an emotional outburst upon this, which should be a pretty big red flag to Oram. Oram demands answers and David proceeds to show him his Frankenstein lair.
It's here where we start to gain the realization that David is the creator of the Xenomorphs. Ughhhh, Why Scott? Why did you do this? No one wanted this but you. Even the most praising reviews have been tepid about this. I'll express more of my thoughts after this plot run through. David leads Oram like a lamb to the slaughter into his egg chamber and tells him to put his face in the egg. Like an idiot Oram does this and gets facehugged. Didn't see that one coming.
Again, literally moments later. the Xenomorph is bursting out, only it's not a chestburster. It's a mini-Alien that mimics David in reaching its hands out. OK, what? We go back to Walter and David, after seeing Shaw's dissected and mutated corpse. So much for any satisfying conclusion for that character from Prometheus. David goes a bit meta here and plays the theme from Prometheus on his flute. Walter has figured David out. It's here was have a strange quasi incestuous, homo-erotic kiss between both of Micheal Fassbender's characters, before David attacks Walter and disables him. We can see Walter's skin repairing itself.
The characters begin their escape of the temple and, another is facehugged for about 5 seconds before it being cut off of his face. The instantly full-grown Xenomorph shows up (eat your heart out Paul W. S. Anderson), kills one of them as the facehugged for 5 seconds other guy runs off. After David gets all creepy and rapey on Daniels, Walter shows back up and we then get a straight out of Mortal Kombat fight between the two androids. The fight cuts away.
Tennessee arrives in the cargo lander. And why again does a ship of over two thousand people only have one shuttle? "Walter" (we know who this really is) follows them out. After that it's the Xenomorph. They climb aboard as the Xenomorph also hops on. Here's that fight from the trailer we all saw. After some cat-and-mouse back and forth between Daniels and the Alien, it's instantly crunched by heavy machinery and released into pieces, in the scene after its birth. Perfect Organism indeed.
I really get the impression Scott wasn't too interested in making an Alien film here.
They make it back to the ship. Some nice shots of the Covenant in the stormy clouds around this bit, reminded me of Event Horizon. Daniels repairs "Walter's" face, (I thought his skin was self repairing?). David really had time to cut his hand off and do his hair just right so that she wouldn't recognize him up close?
After they depart, it becomes evident a Xenomorph is on the ship. I guess five seconds is enough for a facehug to be effective. And again, the Xenomorph is an adult, instantly. The other two crew members apparently thought it would be a good time to have sex in the showers, and here we get our infamous shower scene that we expected from the trailers. I was actually looking forward to this, I was hoping it would be long and disturbing, but it ends up being quick, horror-movie trope fare, which some were initially afraid of but I defended before I ended up seeing.
They lead the Xenomorph into the terraforming bay, trap it in a tractor, and attempt to blow it out of the airlock. It leaps back on the ships platform just in time to be impaled and thrust into space. Again, because we haven't seen that before.
After getting in the hypersleep pods, Daniels realizes this movie's BIG TWIST! David is pretending to be Walter. Why didn't he just play along with her conversation? The twist was ridiculous. A real twist would have been if it really had been Walter, who I ended up liking much more than David in the film. Instead, the movie went and did the ultimate cliche.
In the very weird final scene, David pukes up some tiny facehuggers encased in the same material that the human fetuses were. OK... how?
------------------
When I first walked out of the theater, I was feeling a lot like I did after Prometheus, confusion, denial. Upon reading the reviews of those both defending the film and criticizing it, and thinking upon it myself, like with Prometheus, I was left with immense frustration and disappointment.
This movie wasn't an Alien film.
Now when I criticize Scott here, I do so granting him the respect of a skilled artist and visionary. I can't deny he knows how to direct, and create beautiful scenes. But personally, I don't think any artist, or the work of any artist, is above criticism. The Martian restored some of my faith in Scott as a film maker, but that wasn't his story. It only illustrated well that Scott's strength lies in his visuals, and when he tries to get too involved in a story, it comes across as just random, pseudo-philosophical musings.
More and more I see Alien wasn't his masterpiece. It was a perfect storm of a strong director (who was still new so could only have so much creative control), the story of Dan O' Bannon and Ronald Shusset, (Both of those writers having criticisms of the direction of the franchise, including Prometheus), and the artistry of H.R. Giger and Ron Cobb. Without any of these elements, the symphony that was Alien likely wouldn't have been nearly as effective as it was.
The problem now is that Scott seems to want to be the entire symphony. Although he didn't write Prometheus and Covenant, he was deeply involved in the story and writing process. I really feel he was completely uninterested in listening to the criticisms of Prometheus, only doubling and tripling down on its flaws. I find it hard to believe, despite what Scott says on how he "listened to the fans." If he did he would have known that our problems went well beyond not seeing the Alien.
This film doesn't even grant us that much. I'm willing to bet the Alien has less screen time in this than in the original film. And even when it was not on screen in Alien, it was in the background, lurking. The threat of it was ever present. Our space trucker characters were all known to the audience, they planned, failed, made mistakes, but they were still smart. They acted how people would act. Prometheus and Covenant both threw this out the window.
There were zero creature practical effects that I could see, if there were any, they were too quick to notice. CG and Practical effects are both great tools for filmmakers to use but when you use all CGI for convenience sake, in the installment of a franchise that is known for its outstanding legacy with practical creature effects, you do it a tremendous disservice.
Scott seems intent on making David the center of the Alien universe, and I'm gonna call it now. David will be the Space Jockey.
I have to wonder if Scott is just becoming cynical.
Like Prometheus, this film ended on a semi-cliffhanger, teasing us that we will get our answers in the sequel. But we didn't get any answers to the giant questions left at the end of Prometheus, why should I wait another three to five years for the answers to this that will likely again, only raise questions and answer nothing. It is everything wrong with Hollywood these days. This movie is a corporate product, and we are to keep throwing money at it with the fleeting hope that it may satisfy, eventually.
The immense advertising and marketing campaign for Covenant was entirely dishonest.
I get the feeling Fox forced Scott to make this an Alien film, so he threw an Alien in to hardly be seen. Far more interested in Androids and philosophy, and turning everything we know on its head for the sake of doing so.
Essentially, this film ruins the mystery of the Alien in the same way Prometheus ruined the mystery of the Space Jockey. Scott said in interviews "No one bothered to ask about the man in the chair." OF COURSE WE DID, and everyone had their own answer for it. That was the beauty of the Space Jockey. It was the ultimate mystery of the Alien Universe. It's the same for the Xenomorph itself, the joy and beauty is that we didn't know where they were from or why they existed, they just were, because space is weird. Hence the name "Alien."
Is it really an "Alien" if it's just the result of an insane android? And for those who never liked the idea of Cameron's Aliens as bugs, David LITERALLY USES BUGS TO CREATE THE XENOMORPH.
I'm tempted to just agree with Dan O'Bannon when he said about the Alien subsequent films:
"I'd like to see it stop. A horror movie's a fragile thing, and once you've gotten past the original, it isn't scary anymore. So you do a bunch of sequels to a horror movie, all they do is drain any remaining impact out of the original. All of the sequels to for instance Invasion Of The Bodysnatchers, same thing; they over-expose the ideas, and when you look at the original, it's not as effective as it would have been if you had just left it alone."
But no, I do think the Alien has lasting power as a franchise, and sometimes you can have too much studio questioning of a director as seemed to be the case with Alien³. But I think Scott is engaged in the Lucas effect here. His reputation is a double edged sword that he's surrounded by yes-men, none of whom would ever have the balls to say "I think this might not be the best idea, Ridley."
For those who were complaining about Neil Blomkamp's Alien film retconning the series, what do you think Scott is doing? Honestly, the franchise is so expansive is convoluted now that I think it would be best to just do away with canon. Have the films be like the Comics, they all tell their own stories in their own universes. Neil even said he didn't want to diminish Alien³ or Resurrection with his film, and yet, Scott wanted to make sure nothing Neil did interfered with his. It seems Scott is intent to keep this franchise to himself, I only hope someone higher at Fox will realize that it may be time to let other creatives have their shots, some who will treat the Xenomorph with the respect it deserves.
While Covenant may have been well crafted from a technical standpoint, what anyone would expect from a Ridley Scott film, it didn't seem to have to passion and respect for the Alien that even the AVP films had. Those knew what they were, they were comic book / video game style movies that added to the mythos, without stepping on the toes of any of the other films.
Covenant takes away from the franchise, making countless expanded universe stories and fan speculations invalid in favor of the worst possible explanation for the origin of the Xenomorph. One so bad, I don't remember any fan thinking of it before Covenant, which is unfortunately, likely exactly why Scott wanted to go for it. The beauty of the Alien is in its simplicity and its mystery, that's where its elegance lies. You turn it into a mutant experiment and you've essentially made Alien go full Resident Evil.
Although I was more receptive to the ideas of Spaiths' script for an Alien Prequel, these films have made me realize that the Alien series should not have prequels. They undermine the most important elements of the Xenomorph and Space Jockey, their mystery. That's the kind of mystery that's good. Mystery that is in the background and serves the plot, not mystery that the plot hinges upon. The mystery that we see in Prometheus and Covenant is just lazy storytelling, lazy screenwriting, and misses the point of Alien. You're going to make Prometheus on the premise of exploring the Engineers, and then go nowhere with it? What? Prometheus is essentially pointless now and Alien Covenant was just one giant detour to pick up David and wonder what he'll do next.
My former film teacher put it nicely: Prometheus was a noble failure, Covenant just fails.
Ok, I gotta stop myself, I'm venting now. so here's the TLDR for anyone who just scrolled to the bottom.
PROS:
-Good production design, cool spaceship, suits, and sets.
-Characters were more human and likable than in Prometheus. Really enjoyed Tennessee.
-Gory and brutal
-Interesting conversations with David, although excessive
-The music was a well done throwback to the original, like Predators had.
CONS:
-No satisfying answers to Prometheus
-Poor character development
-People making even less intelligent decisions than in Prometheus
-Completely screwed up lifecycle.
-Almost no Alien, no practical effects, both times it's dispatched quickly by the crew.
-Obsession with android pseudo-philosophy.
-Leaves us waiting for a sequel, again.
-Ruins the mystery of the Xenomorph
-Most predictable twist ever.
-Like Prometheus, seemingly doesn't know what it wants to be.
WHY?:
-Why did David release the the pathogen on the Engineer city?
-Why were the pathogen's effects on the Engineers different than what we saw in Prometheus?
-Why did David kill Shaw?
-How did David create the Xenomorphs?
-Why did the Juggernaut crash?
-Why do the engineers, an advanced space-faring civilization, only live in one city where giant gates trap them in the courtyard?
-If David creates the Xenomorphs, why were they alluded to in multiple murals in Prometheus?
-Still waiting to know why the Engineers wanted to kill us or what those maps in caves were about.
-David couldn't repair the Juggernaut with all his newfound knowledge of the Engineers?
Final Score: 5/10
AVP3, Alien 5, and The Predator can't come soon enough.
Alan Dean Foster has his work cut out for him.
Much appreciated and insightful review, although I disagree with many of the negative criticisms here. Hopefully I will have time later to get around to addressing them individually because it is fairly long and thorough.
First thing, a number of your criticisms directed at Covenant are actually faults of Prometheus so they aren't exactly fair to make here. I don't really address those below and I focus on the aspects of Covenant where I disagreed, and a few times where I do agree with you.
Spoiler tag here, mostly because it's a bit long.
Spoiler
Is it unfathomable that someone could die from a hypersleep pod malfunction? It happened too quickly for anyone to save Branson and having him die in front of the crew was more dramatic than finding him already dead. This scene was at least serviceable and not too far fetched.
What's wrong with Tennessee recognizing a John Denver song almost 100 years from now...? That's pure nit pick.
Spore infection: Why would he say he's infected? They figure out pretty quickly that something is wrong and they tried to get him back to the lander asap.
I thought the early scenes of infection and neomorphs were great, much better than expected. The backburster scene in particular was one of the highlights of the film regarding horror. Walter's expression at the end of the grass attack was priceless. Fair enough that you didn't care for it.
Once they head towards the citadel, the crew was taking notice of all the corpses and it was a dark macabre moment. They're just too busy following David to "safety" for them to stop for an examination or something. All of this is slowly building up to Oram's confrontation with David anyway.
The bombing scene was another highlight of the film. It's character building for David and an emotional moment to witness an entire civilization being wiped out. Gates locking them in...? Not really and it wouldn't have mattered anyway. There was no out running what happened. Not to mention adding to the universe with seeing the Juggernaut break the clouds and link up with the docking station (brand new structure), the clinking of the ampules loading upwards and the imagery of them raining down in a double helix, and finally exploding in the air for dispersal. This was a great example of showing how something works without ruining mystery. Thank goodness Ridley knew what he was doing here by insisting it stay in the film.
Rosenthal was technically alone, but she didn't go very far and she was still inside the building. This doesn't seem like a very effective criticism considering the situation. I also liked how there were several shots of Rosenthal's head spinning in the water interspersed between. It was symbolic.
With Oram in the egg room, keep in mind that he had just dispatched a full grown neomorph with his rifle and he was still armed. His actions here were not idiotic, though his curiosity did get the best of him.
The scene with the very first Alien born was brilliantly done. Here we have more character building for David as he attempts to bond with it and new depth added with the Alien's response. It's pretty far out there so I can understand it being controversial or disliked by some. I think it's great we saw something new and deep, and not just the same old "chestburster scurries off to hide and grow."
As for the seemingly faster growth rates occurring in the film, I consider it a relatively minor criticism that the general audience isn't going to face palm over. It just didn't bother me all that much, although I would definitely love to get a longer version of Covenant that not only adds more to the film but also makes the growth rate not seem too quick.
I think Shaw did get a satisfying conclusion (relatively speaking,) which I think a different poster in another thread elaborated on quite well. Perhaps it was Prof. A's thread? The crossing prologue helped here, too.
The David/Walter switch was purposely telegraphed and it worked effectively for me at least. I think we can forgive Daniels for not recognizing this when she helps patch his face, considering they look exactly the same. This was another moment when on the first viewing, we're left wondering if she will notice him and call it out. It's got tension just below the surface.
I do agree with the shower scene being too quick. This could have been much more effective if both deaths were shown in gruesome fashion, rather than cutting away seconds after the first death.
The terraforming bay scene did end with the repetitive flushing out the airlock, however I thought all the shots of the Alien leading up to it were great. Everything from Daniels waking up to finally getting the Alien out did go too fast for my liking though.
My only real complaint about the CGI would be one or two parts where the CGI blood stood out.
It's definitely not a by-the-numbers standard Alien film. There are some faults, but none of them really stuck out for me and were greatly outweighed by the positives of it all. I absolutely loved Covenant and it sucks that some fans were disappointed or even hate it.
Quote from: Engineer on May 23, 2017, 05:40:34 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 23, 2017, 05:35:58 PM
The xeno hasn't really been mysterious since Aliens; when it became a franchise based on the character of Ripley.
I beg to differ... the mystery I'm referring to is it's origin. I never wanted to know, but Ridley gave it to us anyway. Same with the space jockey, and it has not done the trick for me...
Same applies... after Alien, none of the other films played on that mystery. It was just a xenomorph... another bug hunt. The mystery only ever really existed in Alien... and even as Scott often states, nobody was really asking who the dude in the chair was...
Quote from: Hudson on May 23, 2017, 05:56:33 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 23, 2017, 05:40:34 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 23, 2017, 05:35:58 PM
The xeno hasn't really been mysterious since Aliens; when it became a franchise based on the character of Ripley.
I beg to differ... the mystery I'm referring to is it's origin. I never wanted to know, but Ridley gave it to us anyway. Same with the space jockey, and it has not done the trick for me...
They could've made a decent prequel, but they reached too far. The mistake was trying to tie the mythos into an explanation for all of human existence. That's not exactly what I was hungry for when thinking about what the origins of the Xenomorph could be. Instead of getting the origin of the Xenomorph in terms of what their home planet might be like, we got the origin of humanity and a very lazy design that revealed the Space Jockey not to be an interesting type of biomechanoid Giger-alien, but a space suit worn by a plain white bald guy with big muscles.
I think the only thing I'd like to see committed to film is a Giger'esque biomechinoid planet. Visually, that would be interesting... although not guaranteed it would make a film 'better'.
That was the beauty of it. None of the other films addressed it, but the mystery was still there. Now it's not. Nobody asked about the guy in the chair because most of us never really wanted an answer. He sought out answering the wrong questions. That's just my opinion.
God it kills me to say disappointed. I have loved Alien since seeing it back in the early 80's. It's my favourite film of all time. I really enjoyed Prometheus too. I didn't mind the lack of Xeno since the whole thing had a great Forbidden Planet vibe and I enjoyed the new elements added such as the goo and the Engineer race. David was a fascinating character and I loved the visual and audio experience.
Covenant starts great with a really nice few scenes on the ship and the initial planet exploration. The actors are all great in their roles, especially Billy Crudup and Danny McBride. But things go pear shaped as soon as the first infection occurs. The slow build up (which I loved in Alien and Prometheus) ended abruptly and we were whisked into 2 Alien births and the ship being destroyed.
From then on it went downhill with the entire section in the engineers city with David. It felt muddled and rushed with no real depth into why David did what he did.
The appearance of the Xeno felt like an afterthought tacked on so it could be put on the poster and didn't pose any real threat for me.
The final scenes on the spaceship felt like cut scenes from Alien Isolation, just not as good.
I may need to see it a couple more times and maybe I will grow to like it. I read other reviews wondering how a super Alien fan could not enjoy a new Alien film. Gutted I now know why.
What a cluster fcuk
Edit: Still rate it 4/5 because I cannot bring myself to think it's the film. It's been a really bad day, my fav actor died and my home town was bombed by some psycho. I reckon I watched it it wrong frame of mind
Was just able to see it today. I'd give it a 3.5/5. Highlights:
* Fassbender was great in both roles-in particular David. Perfect sociopath
* Visuals were excellent-in particular the Engineer city and the Covenant ship
* The other characters had some personality and weren't "red shirts." In particular liked Tennessee and Daniels
* I thought the creature designs were a bit uneven but overall very good
* David's "work space" was cool
* Shaw's reveal
My main criticism is the tease and lack of follow-up of the elements from Prometheus. I think the film would have greatly benefited from:
* Implementing the full prologue
* Delving into David's decision to wipe out the Engineers a bit more (I found their response to the presence of the Juggernaut very interesting)
* Touching on the Engineer civilization a bit more
* Spending a bit more time on Shaw
Quote from: Predaker on May 23, 2017, 09:44:17 PM
Quote from: Predaker on May 22, 2017, 03:48:35 AM
Quote from: RidgeTop on May 21, 2017, 08:31:17 AM
This is going to be ranty, but I attempted to be as fair as I could in my own personal assessment and refrain from bitching. I'm putting it in a spoiler tag to save everyone the wall of text.
I personally give the movie a five out of ten. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about it, and this "you're not a true fan" business is silly. Anyone can be a true fan and like or dislike the film.
Spoiler
Alien: Covenant review, oh boy, here we go...
I'll be really impressed if anyone makes it through all of this.
I just got back from my second viewing, wanted to give it another chance before finalizing my opinion.
These are my opinions, my speculations, and my frustrations, I'm just sharing my thoughts here and I don't expect anyone to agree with me. It is worth seeing, and anyone who is interested in it should make up their own mind. If you liked the movie, great! I wish I could.
Alien: Covenant is a bad film.
Not only is it a bad film, it's a bad Alien Prequel, and it's a bad Prometheus Sequel.
It's my least favorite of them all, out of any of the Alien, Predator, or Alien Vs. Predator movies. I like it less than Prometheus.
It brings me no pleasure to say this or have this opinion, anyone who knows me will know I was excited for this movie and wanted it to be great. However, I knew after Prometheus and from some of the rumors I was hearing that my expectations should be measured, so I made sure to keep them as low as I could for the release of an Alien film. It didn't help. Like Prometheus, I watched it again, hoping it would grow on me. It didn't.
I realize this, coming from someone who defends the Alien Vs. Predator movies, won't be a popular assessment. That's OK, it's mine and I'm just sharing it. I'll get to why I think those films, while not as well crafted, served the franchise/s better and had more passion in them.
I'm going to go through the whole plot here. If you just want to see my pros, cons and overall thoughts, skip to the end.
------------------
We start with an intriguing scene where David awakens and meets his creator, Peter Weyland for the first time. There is an interesting back and forth here between creator and creation, and it's clear that this is the theme the movie is going to be focusing on, along with David himself. The scene ends with Weyland, uncomfortable with David's line of questioning, requesting for tea right next to him as a power play. I suppose this is the beginning of David's daddy issues.
Really this movie should have been called David: Covenant.
Skip ahead 10 years after Prometheus and we're with the Covenant, a colonization ship, on its long journey to the planet Origae 6. The ship, its solar sails extended is impacted by a random neutrino burst. Walter awakens the crew, and James Franco's character, Captian Branson remains in his pod. Something is clearly wrong with his pod and before long the inside of it bursts into flames, killing him. This was the first part of the movie I was a bit confused by. You would think, due to rank, Walter would be awakening him first. The pod did not look particularly damaged, and they don't build these things with emergency releases?
In any case, the religious character, Oram, assumes command and is uneasy with his perceptions of the crew judging him.
I enjoyed the scene with the characters repairing the damaged ship, we get some really good views of the Covenant ship, as well as the impressive, practically built and moebius inspired spacesuits. Also, seeing a scene straight from Alien, where they eject their dead crew-member's body out of an airlock and into space was a bit of a treat.
As they are about to depart they receive a transmission. A ghostly image who is singing. Tennessee recognizes the song. I guess John Denver is still pretty well known a century from now? Walter, the android on the ship with the same look of David, is logical, straightforward, and yet subtly compassionate. I like him as a character.
They track the transmission to its source on a nearby planet, much closer than their terraforming destination. Oram decides they should check it out as it could potentially be a better candidate for their colony. This alone would be a bad reason and I'm glad they decided to throw in the "This is a human transmission and we're obligated to investigate" bit. Daniels, our female main character, calls this out as a bad idea.
After descending through the stormy atmosphere to the planet's surface, a scene that had distant vibes of the dropship descent in Aliens, they land on the edge of a lake and begin their trek. They have no protective suits, or procedure for an initial walk-around.
Even the astronauts in Prometheus were not that stupid.
Yes they mention the atmospheric contents but like any new planet landed on, you would think initial pathogen tests would need to be made. Space truckers were more concerned with decontamination and quarantine.
Eventually they come across the crashed ship that Shaw and David used to escape LV-223. I had to admit, their reaction to coming across a ship of potential Alien origin was pretty subdued. We see spores infecting a couple crew members. One puts his damn face in it, pokes it, and notices it release. He doesn't think to tell anyone he might be infected once he starts showing symptoms, a la Holloway in Prometheus. They find the origin of the signal and realize that Shaw and David were aboard the ship. Once two characters get sick they rush their way back to the lander.
Two people make it back first, one infected, one accompanying him. They get to the lander and Karine begs for Farris' help. They go to the medbay, Faris proceeds to lock them in, afraid of an outbreak (even though it wouldn't matter as her face had just been sprayed with blood). Karine realizes something emerging after... hugging a potentially infected guy? She begs Farris to open the door. Farris, in a panic, leaves again, runs to grab a weapon. The Neomorph emerges, I guess it's called the bloodburster for this one. Immediately Karine kicks it back, it viciously attacks her and tears her face up. Farris proceeds to open the door, slip on the bloody floor and shoot the ceiling, crawl back out the door, breaking her foot upon it closing. The bloodburster, the one that was just kicked into the wall a moment earlier proceeds to BREAK THE GLASS on the bulkhead door. Farris shoots around the room in a panic, hitting some tanks and blowing up the lander.
The other bloodburster emerges from the throat of the other victim. I'm not using their names because these two people have not been established as characters, so I really don't care what is happening to them other than seeing the thrilling gore of it. The Neomorph comes back LITERALLY SECONDS LATER, NEARLY FULLY GROWN. They shoot at the Neomorph as it takes off Walter's hand. David comes in and fires a flare, I guess the Neomorphs don't like light too much as they scurry off.
David leads them to the Engineer "Necropolis," which like with the Juggernaut, the group seems awfully calm about. This looks ripped straight out of Rome, as if it's the Vatican itself. We get some Prometheus vibes here, seeing a temple like interior with large stone heads. David explains his backstory and asks a few questions of his own.
It's here where Daniels talks to Walter and says what really should have been the tagline of the film:
"Nothing here makes any sense."
Most of the second act is here. We get some intriguing conversations between Walter and David. They have a strange flute-playing scene together.
"I'll do the fingering."
At one point they walked into a garden that was Ripped straight from the Arnold Böcklin painting "Isle of the Dead." It's here where David reveals that Shaw is dead and that he loved her. Making up a story about how the Juggernaut accidentally deployed its cargo and in the confusion their ship crashed.
We see a flashback where David drops the ships deadly cargo on the Engineer city. Why? Who knows. Some glances of female engineers. This is their home planet but they all live in one city? Why were there gates confining them to the courtyard? They are an advanced space-faring race with no defenses? Lots of questions here that we've been waiting for since the end of Prometheus five years ago. If you were hoping for any satisfying answers you're out of luck. The black goo instantly mummifies them? I suppose this is another instance of it doing whatever the plot calls for.
Back to the main story, in true horror movie fashion, Rosenthal goes off on her own to "freshen up" in a dark Alien city she knows nothing about... sure. Of course the Neomorph creeps in and bites her head off. Scott apparently wants us to really get this as going forward there are three extended shots of her head floating in the water.
During this whole time the crew of the Covenant ship is trying to re-establish contact with the ground crew. There's some good tension between the three bridge crew Members, with Tennessee wanting to risk the Covenant by flying into the storm.
The acting captian, Oram walks in to find the Neomorph munching on Rosenthal's corpse. David has already arrived here and is apparently trying to gain the Neomorph's trust. It strangely stands up straight and walks over to David. Oram has had enough and kills the Neomorph with his assault rifle. David has an emotional outburst upon this, which should be a pretty big red flag to Oram. Oram demands answers and David proceeds to show him his Frankenstein lair.
It's here where we start to gain the realization that David is the creator of the Xenomorphs. Ughhhh, Why Scott? Why did you do this? No one wanted this but you. Even the most praising reviews have been tepid about this. I'll express more of my thoughts after this plot run through. David leads Oram like a lamb to the slaughter into his egg chamber and tells him to put his face in the egg. Like an idiot Oram does this and gets facehugged. Didn't see that one coming.
Again, literally moments later. the Xenomorph is bursting out, only it's not a chestburster. It's a mini-Alien that mimics David in reaching its hands out. OK, what? We go back to Walter and David, after seeing Shaw's dissected and mutated corpse. So much for any satisfying conclusion for that character from Prometheus. David goes a bit meta here and plays the theme from Prometheus on his flute. Walter has figured David out. It's here was have a strange quasi incestuous, homo-erotic kiss between both of Micheal Fassbender's characters, before David attacks Walter and disables him. We can see Walter's skin repairing itself.
The characters begin their escape of the temple and, another is facehugged for about 5 seconds before it being cut off of his face. The instantly full-grown Xenomorph shows up (eat your heart out Paul W. S. Anderson), kills one of them as the facehugged for 5 seconds other guy runs off. After David gets all creepy and rapey on Daniels, Walter shows back up and we then get a straight out of Mortal Kombat fight between the two androids. The fight cuts away.
Tennessee arrives in the cargo lander. And why again does a ship of over two thousand people only have one shuttle? "Walter" (we know who this really is) follows them out. After that it's the Xenomorph. They climb aboard as the Xenomorph also hops on. Here's that fight from the trailer we all saw. After some cat-and-mouse back and forth between Daniels and the Alien, it's instantly crunched by heavy machinery and released into pieces, in the scene after its birth. Perfect Organism indeed.
I really get the impression Scott wasn't too interested in making an Alien film here.
They make it back to the ship. Some nice shots of the Covenant in the stormy clouds around this bit, reminded me of Event Horizon. Daniels repairs "Walter's" face, (I thought his skin was self repairing?). David really had time to cut his hand off and do his hair just right so that she wouldn't recognize him up close?
After they depart, it becomes evident a Xenomorph is on the ship. I guess five seconds is enough for a facehug to be effective. And again, the Xenomorph is an adult, instantly. The other two crew members apparently thought it would be a good time to have sex in the showers, and here we get our infamous shower scene that we expected from the trailers. I was actually looking forward to this, I was hoping it would be long and disturbing, but it ends up being quick, horror-movie trope fare, which some were initially afraid of but I defended before I ended up seeing.
They lead the Xenomorph into the terraforming bay, trap it in a tractor, and attempt to blow it out of the airlock. It leaps back on the ships platform just in time to be impaled and thrust into space. Again, because we haven't seen that before.
After getting in the hypersleep pods, Daniels realizes this movie's BIG TWIST! David is pretending to be Walter. Why didn't he just play along with her conversation? The twist was ridiculous. A real twist would have been if it really had been Walter, who I ended up liking much more than David in the film. Instead, the movie went and did the ultimate cliche.
In the very weird final scene, David pukes up some tiny facehuggers encased in the same material that the human fetuses were. OK... how?
------------------
When I first walked out of the theater, I was feeling a lot like I did after Prometheus, confusion, denial. Upon reading the reviews of those both defending the film and criticizing it, and thinking upon it myself, like with Prometheus, I was left with immense frustration and disappointment.
This movie wasn't an Alien film.
Now when I criticize Scott here, I do so granting him the respect of a skilled artist and visionary. I can't deny he knows how to direct, and create beautiful scenes. But personally, I don't think any artist, or the work of any artist, is above criticism. The Martian restored some of my faith in Scott as a film maker, but that wasn't his story. It only illustrated well that Scott's strength lies in his visuals, and when he tries to get too involved in a story, it comes across as just random, pseudo-philosophical musings.
More and more I see Alien wasn't his masterpiece. It was a perfect storm of a strong director (who was still new so could only have so much creative control), the story of Dan O' Bannon and Ronald Shusset, (Both of those writers having criticisms of the direction of the franchise, including Prometheus), and the artistry of H.R. Giger and Ron Cobb. Without any of these elements, the symphony that was Alien likely wouldn't have been nearly as effective as it was.
The problem now is that Scott seems to want to be the entire symphony. Although he didn't write Prometheus and Covenant, he was deeply involved in the story and writing process. I really feel he was completely uninterested in listening to the criticisms of Prometheus, only doubling and tripling down on its flaws. I find it hard to believe, despite what Scott says on how he "listened to the fans." If he did he would have known that our problems went well beyond not seeing the Alien.
This film doesn't even grant us that much. I'm willing to bet the Alien has less screen time in this than in the original film. And even when it was not on screen in Alien, it was in the background, lurking. The threat of it was ever present. Our space trucker characters were all known to the audience, they planned, failed, made mistakes, but they were still smart. They acted how people would act. Prometheus and Covenant both threw this out the window.
There were zero creature practical effects that I could see, if there were any, they were too quick to notice. CG and Practical effects are both great tools for filmmakers to use but when you use all CGI for convenience sake, in the installment of a franchise that is known for its outstanding legacy with practical creature effects, you do it a tremendous disservice.
Scott seems intent on making David the center of the Alien universe, and I'm gonna call it now. David will be the Space Jockey.
I have to wonder if Scott is just becoming cynical.
Like Prometheus, this film ended on a semi-cliffhanger, teasing us that we will get our answers in the sequel. But we didn't get any answers to the giant questions left at the end of Prometheus, why should I wait another three to five years for the answers to this that will likely again, only raise questions and answer nothing. It is everything wrong with Hollywood these days. This movie is a corporate product, and we are to keep throwing money at it with the fleeting hope that it may satisfy, eventually.
The immense advertising and marketing campaign for Covenant was entirely dishonest.
I get the feeling Fox forced Scott to make this an Alien film, so he threw an Alien in to hardly be seen. Far more interested in Androids and philosophy, and turning everything we know on its head for the sake of doing so.
Essentially, this film ruins the mystery of the Alien in the same way Prometheus ruined the mystery of the Space Jockey. Scott said in interviews "No one bothered to ask about the man in the chair." OF COURSE WE DID, and everyone had their own answer for it. That was the beauty of the Space Jockey. It was the ultimate mystery of the Alien Universe. It's the same for the Xenomorph itself, the joy and beauty is that we didn't know where they were from or why they existed, they just were, because space is weird. Hence the name "Alien."
Is it really an "Alien" if it's just the result of an insane android? And for those who never liked the idea of Cameron's Aliens as bugs, David LITERALLY USES BUGS TO CREATE THE XENOMORPH.
I'm tempted to just agree with Dan O'Bannon when he said about the Alien subsequent films:
"I'd like to see it stop. A horror movie's a fragile thing, and once you've gotten past the original, it isn't scary anymore. So you do a bunch of sequels to a horror movie, all they do is drain any remaining impact out of the original. All of the sequels to for instance Invasion Of The Bodysnatchers, same thing; they over-expose the ideas, and when you look at the original, it's not as effective as it would have been if you had just left it alone."
But no, I do think the Alien has lasting power as a franchise, and sometimes you can have too much studio questioning of a director as seemed to be the case with Alien³. But I think Scott is engaged in the Lucas effect here. His reputation is a double edged sword that he's surrounded by yes-men, none of whom would ever have the balls to say "I think this might not be the best idea, Ridley."
For those who were complaining about Neil Blomkamp's Alien film retconning the series, what do you think Scott is doing? Honestly, the franchise is so expansive is convoluted now that I think it would be best to just do away with canon. Have the films be like the Comics, they all tell their own stories in their own universes. Neil even said he didn't want to diminish Alien³ or Resurrection with his film, and yet, Scott wanted to make sure nothing Neil did interfered with his. It seems Scott is intent to keep this franchise to himself, I only hope someone higher at Fox will realize that it may be time to let other creatives have their shots, some who will treat the Xenomorph with the respect it deserves.
While Covenant may have been well crafted from a technical standpoint, what anyone would expect from a Ridley Scott film, it didn't seem to have to passion and respect for the Alien that even the AVP films had. Those knew what they were, they were comic book / video game style movies that added to the mythos, without stepping on the toes of any of the other films.
Covenant takes away from the franchise, making countless expanded universe stories and fan speculations invalid in favor of the worst possible explanation for the origin of the Xenomorph. One so bad, I don't remember any fan thinking of it before Covenant, which is unfortunately, likely exactly why Scott wanted to go for it. The beauty of the Alien is in its simplicity and its mystery, that's where its elegance lies. You turn it into a mutant experiment and you've essentially made Alien go full Resident Evil.
Although I was more receptive to the ideas of Spaiths' script for an Alien Prequel, these films have made me realize that the Alien series should not have prequels. They undermine the most important elements of the Xenomorph and Space Jockey, their mystery. That's the kind of mystery that's good. Mystery that is in the background and serves the plot, not mystery that the plot hinges upon. The mystery that we see in Prometheus and Covenant is just lazy storytelling, lazy screenwriting, and misses the point of Alien. You're going to make Prometheus on the premise of exploring the Engineers, and then go nowhere with it? What? Prometheus is essentially pointless now and Alien Covenant was just one giant detour to pick up David and wonder what he'll do next.
My former film teacher put it nicely: Prometheus was a noble failure, Covenant just fails.
Ok, I gotta stop myself, I'm venting now. so here's the TLDR for anyone who just scrolled to the bottom.
PROS:
-Good production design, cool spaceship, suits, and sets.
-Characters were more human and likable than in Prometheus. Really enjoyed Tennessee.
-Gory and brutal
-Interesting conversations with David, although excessive
-The music was a well done throwback to the original, like Predators had.
CONS:
-No satisfying answers to Prometheus
-Poor character development
-People making even less intelligent decisions than in Prometheus
-Completely screwed up lifecycle.
-Almost no Alien, no practical effects, both times it's dispatched quickly by the crew.
-Obsession with android pseudo-philosophy.
-Leaves us waiting for a sequel, again.
-Ruins the mystery of the Xenomorph
-Most predictable twist ever.
-Like Prometheus, seemingly doesn't know what it wants to be.
WHY?:
-Why did David release the the pathogen on the Engineer city?
-Why were the pathogen's effects on the Engineers different than what we saw in Prometheus?
-Why did David kill Shaw?
-How did David create the Xenomorphs?
-Why did the Juggernaut crash?
-Why do the engineers, an advanced space-faring civilization, only live in one city where giant gates trap them in the courtyard?
-If David creates the Xenomorphs, why were they alluded to in multiple murals in Prometheus?
-Still waiting to know why the Engineers wanted to kill us or what those maps in caves were about.
-David couldn't repair the Juggernaut with all his newfound knowledge of the Engineers?
Final Score: 5/10
AVP3, Alien 5, and The Predator can't come soon enough.
Alan Dean Foster has his work cut out for him.
Much appreciated and insightful review, although I disagree with many of the negative criticisms here. Hopefully I will have time later to get around to addressing them individually because it is fairly long and thorough.
First thing, a number of your criticisms directed at Covenant are actually faults of Prometheus so they aren't exactly fair to make here. I don't really address those below and I focus on the aspects of Covenant where I disagreed, and a few times where I do agree with you.
Spoiler tag here, mostly because it's a bit long.
Spoiler
Is it unfathomable that someone could die from a hypersleep pod malfunction? It happened too quickly for anyone to save Branson and having him die in front of the crew was more dramatic than finding him already dead. This scene was at least serviceable and not too far fetched.
What's wrong with Tennessee recognizing a John Denver song almost 100 years from now...? That's pure nit pick.
Spore infection: Why would he say he's infected? They figure out pretty quickly that something is wrong and they tried to get him back to the lander asap.
I thought the early scenes of infection and neomorphs were great, much better than expected. The backburster scene in particular was one of the highlights of the film regarding horror. Walter's expression at the end of the grass attack was priceless. Fair enough that you didn't care for it.
Once they head towards the citadel, the crew was taking notice of all the corpses and it was a dark macabre moment. They're just too busy following David to "safety" for them to stop for an examination or something. All of this is slowly building up to Oram's confrontation with David anyway.
The bombing scene was another highlight of the film. It's character building for David and an emotional moment to witness an entire civilization being wiped out. Gates locking them in...? Not really and it wouldn't have mattered anyway. There was no out running what happened. Not to mention adding to the universe with seeing the Juggernaut break the clouds and link up with the docking station (brand new structure), the clinking of the ampules loading upwards and the imagery of them raining down in a double helix, and finally exploding in the air for dispersal. This was a great example of showing how something works without ruining mystery. Thank goodness Ridley knew what he was doing here by insisting it stay in the film.
Rosenthal was technically alone, but she didn't go very far and she was still inside the building. This doesn't seem like a very effective criticism considering the situation. I also liked how there were several shots of Rosenthal's head spinning in the water interspersed between. It was symbolic.
With Oram in the egg room, keep in mind that he had just dispatched a full grown neomorph with his rifle and he was still armed. His actions here were not idiotic, though his curiosity did get the best of him.
The scene with the very first Alien born was brilliantly done. Here we have more character building for David as he attempts to bond with it and new depth added with the Alien's response. It's pretty far out there so I can understand it being controversial or disliked by some. I think it's great we saw something new and deep, and not just the same old "chestburster scurries off to hide and grow."
As for the seemingly faster growth rates occurring in the film, I consider it a relatively minor criticism that the general audience isn't going to face palm over. It just didn't bother me all that much, although I would definitely love to get a longer version of Covenant that not only adds more to the film but also makes the growth rate not seem too quick.
I think Shaw did get a satisfying conclusion (relatively speaking,) which I think a different poster in another thread elaborated on quite well. Perhaps it was Prof. A's thread? The crossing prologue helped here, too.
The David/Walter switch was purposely telegraphed and it worked effectively for me at least. I think we can forgive Daniels for not recognizing this when she helps patch his face, considering they look exactly the same. This was another moment when on the first viewing, we're left wondering if she will notice him and call it out. It's got tension just below the surface.
I do agree with the shower scene being too quick. This could have been much more effective if both deaths were shown in gruesome fashion, rather than cutting away seconds after the first death.
The terraforming bay scene did end with the repetitive flushing out the airlock, however I thought all the shots of the Alien leading up to it were great. Everything from Daniels waking up to finally getting the Alien out did go too fast for my liking though.
My only real complaint about the CGI would be one or two parts where the CGI blood stood out.
It's definitely not a by-the-numbers standard Alien film. There are some faults, but none of them really stuck out for me and were greatly outweighed by the positives of it all. I absolutely loved Covenant and it sucks that some fans were disappointed or even hate it.
Regarding your Rosenthal theory and the John Denver song :
Rosenthal was far enough for NOBODY to hear her scream and Shaw was not American, so singing a country song from 100 years earlier is not nitpicking, it is a plot device to identify her as human, since the hologram is a visual mess... This movie is full of plot devices like that Walter gibberish of Tennessee being able to intercept that transmission because he was away from the ship's comm buffers... That explanation sounded forced as hell when they could have just intercepted it... such contrived scene for something so easy to do... Also, David's ludicrous final log stating the log would reach the WY network in 1 year clearly contradicts the fact that Ash was communicating with the Network in far less time than that, mere hours if not less... And this is just 18 years before ALIEN...
Regarding Oram: Oram had Just threatened David mere minutes before asking David if it was safe to be around the eggs... So yes, this scene is ridiculously incoherent...
And do not mention scenes that were not in the movie because as far as any person who watched the movie and did not see the crossing scenes, they know nothing about it just from watching the movie... Same with the character development of the last supper scenes... Scenes that were not in the movie are not part of it... they should have been there in the first place, which shows how neutered this movie was to skip such vital scenes...
The chestburster Groot cuty scene is preposterous and a slap in the face of fans, no matter how you slice it... Xenos are not cute, they cannot be taught tricks... The neomorph whispered scene was another POS scene that ridicules the feral nature of it...
This movie is virtually unrewatchable with so many head scratching moments, including my fave, grunge David with long hair but no beard... 😂💩
There was more you said that was very debatable, but I am tired... Will continue later... Cheers
I feel like Ridley Scott never understood the appeal of Alien to begin with. He should just call the next movie he makes David, because that's the only character who ever really mattered in these movies.
QuoteAnd do not mention scenes that were not in the movie because as far as any person who watched the movie and did not see the crossing scenes, they know nothing about it just from watching the movie...
I can mention them if I want. I've seen them and pretty much any other fan following closely would have seen it too. It goes without saying it's not in the final cut but it still exists as the prologue to Covenant, and I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up on disc as well. The average movie goer who wouldn't even know Prometheus is an Alien film sure isn't going to care or remember much (if anything) about Shaw.
my review:
What an uneventful film.
The film was pretty much David messing with aliens and wanting to kill humanity and then catching a ride. That's it. None of the other characters mattered at all.
From the start till when David finally shows up it stuff seen in alien movies already. This series of beats played out in the last movie. Why was it redone again for this one? Is there really no new way to tell an Alien story? Does it have to be some space crew landing in some strange planet, finding some alien things, getting infected, and then running around?
For me the movie began when they finally got to continuing the Prom stuff, which was like a total of five minutes.
Walter seems to exist for the sole purpose of having that conversation about robots being better than humans and that's it. Oh and the last bit. But there could've been a thousand different ways to get to that.
The chick was super tough, the space elevator ship scene was nice, but there was little development there. She just picks up a gun and goes. That thing that she was supposed to have to Walter would've been interesting if they bother to actually develop it. We just got one conversation and that apparently was enough. if it wasnt for David mentioning it that conversation would mean little.
These movies are getting worst. And sorry, but being nicely shot does not excuse the non-story we have in this film.
I mean, was there any explanation why that city had no tech? Why is David stuck there? Did i miss it? I mean, i was tuned out for the first bit because i've seen that stuff too many times. The events of this movie seem to be setup just to happen in the way that the people writing them wanted them to happen rather than being an actual developing story.
Seriously, did i miss something cause i just tuned out?
As a fan of the series this was, like i said above, David catching a ride and doing some experiments. Everything else was just there tacking space. And being a sequel, this film should not have been build as some sort of entry point for new viewers.
Quote from: genocyber on May 24, 2017, 02:51:50 AM
I feel like Ridley Scott never understood the appeal of Alien to begin with. He should just call the next movie he makes David, because that's the only character who ever really mattered in these movies.
There was no point in recreating Alien or any of its or other films' approaches. And there's no point in clinging to the past, either. It's so easy to trivialize this film if it doesn't tick fanboy boxes :/
You know ... by listening to the score ... it made me realise the Med-Bay scene wasn't bad. It had the right amount of tension.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh_o19X5D2g&t=255s
Despite a few "WTF" moments though. Because, if you quarantine someone, make sure you don't have that persons blood splattered all over your face ;D
Quote from: SyntaX on May 24, 2017, 10:05:59 AM
You know ... by listening to the score ... it made me realise the Med-Bay scene wasn't bad. It had the right amount of tension.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh_o19X5D2g&t=255s
Despite a few "WTF" moments though. Because, if you quarantine someone, make sure you don't have that persons blood splattered all over your face ;D
The moment Feris got Karine's blood on her face was when her composure cracked and everything went to shit. And it was beautifully directed and subtly felt.
Quote from: Salt The Fries on May 24, 2017, 10:10:49 AM
Quote from: SyntaX on May 24, 2017, 10:05:59 AM
You know ... by listening to the score ... it made me realise the Med-Bay scene wasn't bad. It had the right amount of tension.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh_o19X5D2g&t=255s
Despite a few "WTF" moments though. Because, if you quarantine someone, make sure you don't have that persons blood splattered all over your face ;D
The moment Feris got Karine's blood on her face was when her composure cracked and everything went to shit. And it was beautifully directed and subtly felt.
I don't really get why people criticize her behavior in this seen. She quite clearly has a complete melt down and isn't acting rationally, something I felt Seimetz conveyed perfectly. The whole scene from the moment he falls ill is wonderfully constructed.
Quote from: Predaker on May 24, 2017, 05:24:20 AM
QuoteAnd do not mention scenes that were not in the movie because as far as any person who watched the movie and did not see the crossing scenes, they know nothing about it just from watching the movie...
I can mention them if I want. I've seen them and pretty much any other fan following closely would have seen it too. It goes without saying it's not in the final cut but it still exists as the prologue to Covenant, and I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up on disc as well. The average movie goer who wouldn't even know Prometheus is an Alien film sure isn't going to care or remember much (if anything) about Shaw.
Actually, without watching PROMETHEUS first, this movie will make even less sense... and truth of the matter is that this movie, as it is edited, completely disregards those clips... Any Director's Cut or fan viewings will not change that fact... The theatrical movie does not contemplate those clips at all... And many fans wanting to avoid spoilers may have skipped them altogether... Highly doubt it, but there is that chance... So, those unlucky ones if they were fans of P and Shaw, will be pretty pissed... Hell, I saw the Crossing and I am still pretty pissed about how Riddler dealt with it...
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 24, 2017, 10:53:05 AM
Quote from: Salt The Fries on May 24, 2017, 10:10:49 AM
Quote from: SyntaX on May 24, 2017, 10:05:59 AM
You know ... by listening to the score ... it made me realise the Med-Bay scene wasn't bad. It had the right amount of tension.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh_o19X5D2g&t=255s
Despite a few "WTF" moments though. Because, if you quarantine someone, make sure you don't have that persons blood splattered all over your face ;D
The moment Feris got Karine's blood on her face was when her composure cracked and everything went to shit. And it was beautifully directed and subtly felt.
I don't really get why people criticize her behavior in this seen. She quite clearly has a complete melt down and isn't acting rationally, something I felt Seimetz conveyed perfectly. The whole scene from the moment he falls ill is wonderfully constructed.
Plus she was really portrayed as no-nonsense, strong character that didn't take shit from anybody. Didn't she even leave some gear behind the lander that might have been contaminated?
Quote from: Salt The Fries on May 24, 2017, 11:07:58 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 24, 2017, 10:53:05 AM
Quote from: Salt The Fries on May 24, 2017, 10:10:49 AM
Quote from: SyntaX on May 24, 2017, 10:05:59 AM
You know ... by listening to the score ... it made me realise the Med-Bay scene wasn't bad. It had the right amount of tension.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh_o19X5D2g&t=255s
Despite a few "WTF" moments though. Because, if you quarantine someone, make sure you don't have that persons blood splattered all over your face ;D
The moment Feris got Karine's blood on her face was when her composure cracked and everything went to shit. And it was beautifully directed and subtly felt.
I don't really get why people criticize her behavior in this seen. She quite clearly has a complete melt down and isn't acting rationally, something I felt Seimetz conveyed perfectly. The whole scene from the moment he falls ill is wonderfully constructed.
Plus she was really portrayed as no-nonsense, strong character that didn't take shit from anybody. Didn't she even leave some gear behind the lander that might have been contaminated?
Yes she did, I also liked the fact she told Karine she was 'just going to get Oram' I think it was just before she locked her in. She did this knowing he wouldn't have arrived yet. Its pure panic portrayed very realistically, its the lack of histrionics I liked.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 24, 2017, 11:21:47 AM
Quote from: Salt The Fries on May 24, 2017, 11:07:58 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 24, 2017, 10:53:05 AM
Quote from: Salt The Fries on May 24, 2017, 10:10:49 AM
Quote from: SyntaX on May 24, 2017, 10:05:59 AM
You know ... by listening to the score ... it made me realise the Med-Bay scene wasn't bad. It had the right amount of tension.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh_o19X5D2g&t=255s
Despite a few "WTF" moments though. Because, if you quarantine someone, make sure you don't have that persons blood splattered all over your face ;D
The moment Feris got Karine's blood on her face was when her composure cracked and everything went to shit. And it was beautifully directed and subtly felt.
I don't really get why people criticize her behavior in this seen. She quite clearly has a complete melt down and isn't acting rationally, something I felt Seimetz conveyed perfectly. The whole scene from the moment he falls ill is wonderfully constructed.
Plus she was really portrayed as no-nonsense, strong character that didn't take shit from anybody. Didn't she even leave some gear behind the lander that might have been contaminated?
Yes she did, I also liked the fact she told Karine she was 'just going to get Oram' I think it was just before she locked her in. She did this knowing he wouldn't have arrived yet. Its pure panic portrayed very realistically, its the lack of histrionics I liked.
I think a lot of people couldn't connect with those characters (just like with Oram), but I think they were well written. And also it's peculiar how those two women were more prominent than guys like Lope and the significance of them dying earlier on was meant to shock us. It's been clear Ridley had been experimenting with pacing. In Prometheus hardly anyone had died until very late on. And then we were left with of characters that were shown on screen a lot but had few lines (Ford) or those two pilots who had very auxiliary role.
It was actually shawsbaby's post here that elaborated a bit about Shaw in Covenant (Prof. A had some interesting insight also though)
Quote from: shawsbaby on May 22, 2017, 02:52:53 PM
So, now that I have had time to process the grief/irritation many (most? some?) of us felt upon realization that Shaw was shortchanged so profoundly in the overall prequel narrative, I do find myself (especially upon second viewing) appreciating a bit more how her presence was felt throughout the movie:
- her garbled voice on the transmission/appearing in Tennessee's helmet
- Daniels finding her tag on the ship and the photo of her and Charlie, wondering what she was doing out there
- the crew watching Shaw's hologram on the ship (and Rosie lamenting, "Poor thing")
- So much of David's dialogue being about Shaw
- David showing Walter where he "buried" Shaw, placing the flower on the tombstone
- the rather beautiful juxtaposition of David watching the Xeno emerge from Oram with David coming across the bizarre, horrific state of Shaw's corpse
- Daniels finding the sketch of Shaw and confronting David, and the chilling but spare promise that he did to Shaw "what I'm going to do to you"
That's a considerable amount of attention paid to her as a character and didn't feel to me like cheap exposition to explain her away. I would have very much liked to have seen Shaw alive in the film, or to have seen a flashback where David's experimenting on her began to take fruition, but I think using the filmed footage of her with David for the viral prologue was a better idea than starting the movie with that scene or showing it in flashback. Something about the way that footage was put together didn't feel like it belonged in the film proper.
What do others think? Now that we've had time to assess it and some of us have seen the film multiple times, what are our thoughts on Shaw's presence in the film in the context of the finished cut? I think we can all agree she deserved better and she deserved more, but given the film as is, she felt rather important without needing to be seen.
I also wouldn't count out that the next movie (if there is one) could very well bring Noomi Rapace back in to film a flashback to open the movie as they did with Guy Pearce. Having Weyland in that opening really made up his underwhelming appearance in Prometheus.
Prof. a's thread - http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=57553.0
Quote from: Salt The Fries on May 24, 2017, 12:00:17 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 24, 2017, 11:21:47 AM
Quote from: Salt The Fries on May 24, 2017, 11:07:58 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 24, 2017, 10:53:05 AM
Quote from: Salt The Fries on May 24, 2017, 10:10:49 AM
Quote from: SyntaX on May 24, 2017, 10:05:59 AM
You know ... by listening to the score ... it made me realise the Med-Bay scene wasn't bad. It had the right amount of tension.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh_o19X5D2g&t=255s
Despite a few "WTF" moments though. Because, if you quarantine someone, make sure you don't have that persons blood splattered all over your face ;D
The moment Feris got Karine's blood on her face was when her composure cracked and everything went to shit. And it was beautifully directed and subtly felt.
I don't really get why people criticize her behavior in this seen. She quite clearly has a complete melt down and isn't acting rationally, something I felt Seimetz conveyed perfectly. The whole scene from the moment he falls ill is wonderfully constructed.
Plus she was really portrayed as no-nonsense, strong character that didn't take shit from anybody. Didn't she even leave some gear behind the lander that might have been contaminated?
Yes she did, I also liked the fact she told Karine she was 'just going to get Oram' I think it was just before she locked her in. She did this knowing he wouldn't have arrived yet. Its pure panic portrayed very realistically, its the lack of histrionics I liked.
I think a lot of people couldn't connect with those characters (just like with Oram), but I think they were well written. And also it's peculiar how those two women were more prominent than guys like Lope and the significance of them dying earlier on was meant to shock us. It's been clear Ridley had been experimenting with pacing. In Prometheus hardly anyone had died until very late on. And then we were left with of characters that were shown on screen a lot but had few lines (Ford) or those two pilots who had very auxiliary role.
Maybe so, but I think in the case of this scene people are seeking a problem based on this perception that the characters all behave stupidly. I think this is a carry over from Prometheus unfortunately but doesn't hold true for this film, not to my eyes anyway. Your point about pacing is interesting. Both Covenant and Prometheus have very unusual pacing and it is jarring. Even I felt the scenes at the end on Covenant seemed rushed and a little tagged on. So you think its an experimental thing?
Cross-posting from another thread:
QuoteThere are several great sequences in AC, and the production spared no expense; most of the first 20-25 minutes on the ship works for me (sans the painfully blatant bit where Oram awkwardly exposits on his religious character which goes nowhere in the final film), as does most everything til David takes them to the citadel. Once there it becomes a rolling disaster. Elements of the Walter/David sequences work, others are laughably pretentious even for someone with a high tolerance for Ridley's fascination with the artificial person. Nothing about David's connections with Shaw and Walter's with Daniels, or David's sudden adoration for Walter, makes sense or is properly explicated. The bombing sequence is dropped in as a sliver of a larger sequence and makes little sense on its own story-wise despite being visually grand. All the movie leaves you with is "and we killed everything from the last movie". To say nothing of the hilarious bit where David wails, "it trusted me!" And the alien developments are awful, as is David pawing Daniels; 'is this how it works?' Yes, we remember Ash and the magazine. That was a hilariously clumsy, stupid callback.
Great actors, gorgeous design, great creatures. Several great scenes, as mentioned. (The medbay sequence is excellent from arrival to explosion, one of the best in the franchise, suffused with dread and horror.) But overall easily the weakest film in the franchise for me next to A3 or AR, both of which have merits but are supremely flawed. I actually prefer AR; it knows what it is. This film is caught between retreading old ground and Ridley's private obsessions. Talented/intriguing people with connections have no characters (Lope/Hallett, whose relationship is offscreen; the winning Rosenthal who is spunky but gets nothing; sardonic Upworth who largely exists to die on the USCSS Camp Crystal Lake in the last 15 mins) or are killed very quickly (Faris, Karine). Waterston is sweet and tough as Daniels but devolves into a Ripley clone in the rushed second half. The classic alien is utterly unneeded and basically rumbles along in a straight line as soon as it appears. It's fodder now. Not scary. The movie is a ritzy fan service-heavy, pretentious Friday the 13th. I suspected it would be deeply flawed but I didn't know it would be quite this disjointed, messy and confused in its second half.
I'd never have been onboard with this particular story or wiping the slate clean on Shaw and Prometheus, but completely wiping out Noomi Rapace's screen time (right down to re-masking her face in the holograms post-test screening) feels vaguely punitive. Imagine the gravity of the drama if it had another 20-30 minutes, and Daniels or Walter had discovered David's 'beloved' Shaw sick or dying - infected? - telling them to kill her and destroy him. To say nothing of helping the overall pacing and characters as mentioned.
The Audiobook is now out. I'm only on Chapter 8 but little touches here and there mean it is already making a little more sense than the movie itself. Also so far Daniels doesn't seem such a Mary Sue with all the best lines.
Finally saw it. I was fired up and ready to go the evening before the premiere but then I got tempted into reading some spoilers...and I thought Ridley has lost his mind. Some ideas, like , of course, David creating the alien we all know, and David being the main villain revolted me so much I decided to pass till the bluray comes out, which for me for the most of my life as a diehard Alien fan would be unthinkable. But then I thought well, ok, some ideas sound incredibly stupid but they may be executed really well so lets give it a chance, and I finally saw it yesterday.
Certainly , having expectations set as low as they can possibly be, its almost impossible to be disappointed. I loved the beginning, really good, hard hitting, ballsy and strong opening. Since nobody cares about others' reviews and most people dont read them anyway, all Ill say is that I was pleasantly surprised and thought it was a good movie. One thing I truly miss these days is the expressionist lighting and imagery that were present in the first two movies, and of course, the cg was laughably bad, but its ok, ill give it a pass cause the movie had quite a grim punch
Well, I had avoided all spoilers until seeing the film tonight. With my mum. Who has seen Prometheus 'a few years ago'
Overall , although the film was beautifully shot, and acted, particularly by Fassbender, it felt like a bit of a let down? I can't put my finger on why.
It felt a bit predictable, the spores, the facehugger scene, the whole David creepy baddie android hamming up thing. And is that a bone recorder/flute David is playing? So it's Shaw's bone?
My mums summary was along the lines of 'what's the point?' I'm inclined to agree. She said 'so a woman survived all the gooey things and aliens from last time. And she rescued the robots head. And then the robot tortures and kills her, and lures another ship to the planet. And deceives them and kills them and gets in to their ship to kill all their passengers'
I did elaborate for her, but I have to agree with her synopsis. It just feels like a set of steps a followed with regular shocks along the way, very formulaic.
And a bit disappointing from a character point of view, Daniels was a bit of a wuss compared to Ripley or Shaw.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 24, 2017, 03:07:46 PM
There are several great sequences in AC, and the production spared no expense; most of the first 20-25 minutes on the ship works for me (sans the painfully blatant bit where Oram awkwardly exposits on his religious character which goes nowhere in the final film), as does most everything til David takes them to the citadel. Once there it becomes a rolling disaster. Elements of the Walter/David sequences work, others are laughably pretentious even for someone with a high tolerance for Ridley's fascination with the artificial person. Nothing about David's connections with Shaw and Walter's with Daniels, or David's sudden adoration for Walter, makes sense or is properly explicated. The bombing sequence is dropped in as a sliver of a larger sequence and makes little sense on its own story-wise despite being visually grand. All the movie leaves you with is "and we killed everything from the last movie". To say nothing of the hilarious bit where David wails, "it trusted me!" And the alien developments are awful, as is David pawing Daniels; 'is this how it works?' Yes, we remember Ash and the magazine. That was a hilariously clumsy, stupid callback.
Great actors, gorgeous design, great creatures. Several great scenes, as mentioned. (The medbay sequence is excellent from arrival to explosion, one of the best in the franchise, suffused with dread and horror.) But overall easily the weakest film in the franchise for me next to A3 or AR, both of which have merits but are supremely flawed. I actually prefer AR; it knows what it is. This film is caught between retreading old ground and Ridley's private obsessions. Talented/intriguing people with connections have no characters (Lope/Hallett, whose relationship is offscreen; the winning Rosenthal who is spunky but gets nothing; sardonic Upworth who largely exists to die on the USCSS Camp Crystal Lake in the last 15 mins) or are killed very quickly (Faris, Karine). Waterston is sweet and tough as Daniels but devolves into a Ripley clone in the rushed second half. The classic alien is utterly unneeded and basically rumbles along in a straight line as soon as it appears. It's fodder now. Not scary. The movie is a ritzy fan service-heavy, pretentious Friday the 13th. I suspected it would be deeply flawed but I didn't know it would be quite this disjointed, messy and confused in its second half.
I'd never have been onboard with this particular story or wiping the slate clean on Shaw and Prometheus, but completely wiping out Noomi Rapace's screen time (right down to re-masking her face in the holograms post-test screening) feels vaguely punitive. Imagine the gravity of the drama if it had another 20-30 minutes, and Daniels or Walter had discovered David's 'beloved' Shaw sick or dying - infected? - telling them to kill her and destroy him. To say nothing of helping the overall pacing and characters as mentioned.
Nice review, sharp and fair.
Quote from: CthulhuQueen on May 25, 2017, 12:04:47 AM
Daniels was a bit of a wuss compared to Ripley or Shaw.
Disagree. She fought the alien in the loading ship which was a pretty badass thing to do! Plus we only meet Daniels from the moment she loses her husband, so she's instantly damaged emotionally.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/empire-cap-04.jpg)
A few thoughts regarding the aliens intelligence and fast growth rate in Covenant - These are the very first ones, growing at about the same rate as the neomorphs. As they move on to a subsequent generation and further away from the neomorphs, their growth rate will stabilize to allow a little more time for their brains to fully mature while they are still small enough to hide more efficiently.
Quote from: Predaker on May 25, 2017, 12:20:16 PM
A few thoughts regarding the aliens intelligence and fast growth rate in Covenant - These are the very first ones, growing at about the same rate as the neomorphs. As they move on to a subsequent generation and further away from the neomorphs, their growth rate will stabilize to allow a little more time for their brains to fully mature while they are still small enough to hide more efficiently.
The growth rate wasnt off imo. When Oram was about to be chestbursted, David was throwing stones at him, implying that he sat there for a long ass time and he wanted Oram to wake the f*ck up. I believe several scenes prior to this were cut from the theatrical version to speed things up a bit.
Also, when Lope or (whatever his name was) was being chestbursted on the covenant, Daniels even had time to fry some eggs and take a nap.
Besides, the alien in Alien also matured very quickly. Remember when Brett picked the xeno skin from the ground and it was about half his size? Next scene he's looking at the BC...
Quote from: Snake on May 25, 2017, 12:52:29 PMAlso, when Lope or (whatever his name was) was being chestbursted on the covenant, Daniels even had time to fry some eggs and take a nap.
The problem with Lope isn't how quickly it bursts out of him, but how quickly it got in there in the first place.
Kane was out with a Facehugger on him for the best part of a day. If it could've done it instantaneously like in
Covenant, why would it keep him under for so long?
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 25, 2017, 01:17:33 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 25, 2017, 12:52:29 PMAlso, when Lope or (whatever his name was) was being chestbursted on the covenant, Daniels even had time to fry some eggs and take a nap.
The problem with Lope isn't how quickly it bursts out of him, but how quickly it got in there in the first place.
Kane was out with a Facehugger on him for the best part of a day. If it could've done it instantaneously like in Covenant, why would it keep him under for so long?
Hi Hudaf**k,
I appologise for being so rude to you the other day, I really am sorry.
As for your remarks, I'd like to think of it this way: the facehugger can now infect people very quickly. It can put it's victim into a coma( like Oram) but only for pure sake of convience as in: it wouldn't be damaged by the struggling of the guy. It can do what it's meant to do under pressure and when it's instinct tell it it won't be able to finish, resulting in a more efficient creature.
Quote from: Snake on May 25, 2017, 12:52:29 PM
Quote from: Predaker on May 25, 2017, 12:20:16 PM
A few thoughts regarding the aliens intelligence and fast growth rate in Covenant - These are the very first ones, growing at about the same rate as the neomorphs. As they move on to a subsequent generation and further away from the neomorphs, their growth rate will stabilize to allow a little more time for their brains to fully mature while they are still small enough to hide more efficiently.
The growth rate wasnt off imo. When Oram was about to be chestbursted, David was throwing stones at him, implying that he sat there for a long ass time and he wanted Oram to wake the f*ck up. I believe several scenes prior to this were cut from the theatrical version to speed things up a bit.
Also, when Lope or (whatever his name was) was being chestbursted on the covenant, Daniels even had time to fry some eggs and take a nap.
Besides, the alien in Alien also matured very quickly. Remember when Brett picked the xeno skin from the ground and it was about half his size? Next scene he's looking at the BC...
Some people complained that the aliens grew into an adult too fast after birth and weren't as intelligent as they should be.
Quote from: Snake on May 25, 2017, 01:23:29 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 25, 2017, 01:17:33 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 25, 2017, 12:52:29 PMAlso, when Lope or (whatever his name was) was being chestbursted on the covenant, Daniels even had time to fry some eggs and take a nap.
The problem with Lope isn't how quickly it bursts out of him, but how quickly it got in there in the first place.
Kane was out with a Facehugger on him for the best part of a day. If it could've done it instantaneously like in Covenant, why would it keep him under for so long?
Hi Hudaf**k,
I appologise for being so rude to you the other day, I really am sorry.
As for your remarks, I'd like to think of it this way: the facehugger can now infect people very quickly. It can put it's victim into a coma( like Oram) but only for pure sake of convience as in: it wouldn't be damaged by the struggling of the guy. It can do what it's meant to do under pressure and when it's instinct tell it it won't be able to finish, resulting in a more efficient creature.
Do we actually know how long it took to infect Kane? I mean Kane may have been infected instantly and the facehugger remains on his face just to protect the embryo while it grows etc, just a thought though.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 25, 2017, 01:28:17 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 25, 2017, 01:23:29 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 25, 2017, 01:17:33 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 25, 2017, 12:52:29 PMAlso, when Lope or (whatever his name was) was being chestbursted on the covenant, Daniels even had time to fry some eggs and take a nap.
The problem with Lope isn't how quickly it bursts out of him, but how quickly it got in there in the first place.
Kane was out with a Facehugger on him for the best part of a day. If it could've done it instantaneously like in Covenant, why would it keep him under for so long?
Hi Hudaf**k,
I appologise for being so rude to you the other day, I really am sorry.
As for your remarks, I'd like to think of it this way: the facehugger can now infect people very quickly. It can put it's victim into a coma( like Oram) but only for pure sake of convience as in: it wouldn't be damaged by the struggling of the guy. It can do what it's meant to do under pressure and when it's instinct tell it it won't be able to finish, resulting in a more efficient creature.
Do we actually know how long it took to infect Kane? I mean Kane may have been infected instantly and the facehugger remains on his face just to protect the embryo while it grows etc, just a thought though.
'Right!'
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 25, 2017, 01:28:17 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 25, 2017, 01:23:29 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 25, 2017, 01:17:33 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 25, 2017, 12:52:29 PMAlso, when Lope or (whatever his name was) was being chestbursted on the covenant, Daniels even had time to fry some eggs and take a nap.
The problem with Lope isn't how quickly it bursts out of him, but how quickly it got in there in the first place.
Kane was out with a Facehugger on him for the best part of a day. If it could've done it instantaneously like in Covenant, why would it keep him under for so long?
Hi Hudaf**k,
I appologise for being so rude to you the other day, I really am sorry.
As for your remarks, I'd like to think of it this way: the facehugger can now infect people very quickly. It can put it's victim into a coma( like Oram) but only for pure sake of convience as in: it wouldn't be damaged by the struggling of the guy. It can do what it's meant to do under pressure and when it's instinct tell it it won't be able to finish, resulting in a more efficient creature.
Do we actually know how long it took to infect Kane? I mean Kane may have been infected instantly and the facehugger remains on his face just to protect the embryo while it grows etc, just a thought though.
That's a fair point, actually. Maybe the facehugger just sits on its victim like a bird sits on its eggs. But if it can't do that for some reason, it's 'so long Junior, and best of luck!' :D
Sorry, I was a bit wasted yesterday...
So I left this forum in the run up to Covenant as all of Prometheus' marketing material really spoiled a film I already didn't enjoy and I think that marred some of the experience for me.
I watched A:C at the cinema and gave myself a week to mull over it. I haven't read the average review here or even voted in this thread's poll to see what popular opinion is, but here is my review for Alien Covenant.
I feel absolutely nothing for this movie. No hatred for tarnishing the franchise - At this point I've begrudgingly accepted that Ridley's vision is the direction of the Alien franchise whether I like it or not. No joy of seeing the Aliens return and stalk corridors like the original movie, and certainly none of the fear.
This film left me numb. Everything felt bland - The locations, the characters, the situations. Nothing stimulated my senses. The reveal of the crashed Juggernaut is a good example - In the original, it was seen through mist in the distance, and on monitors flickering with feedback. You never quite got a good look at it until after a lot of tension building. In Covenant it was a sudden shot of the ship, it wasn't a slow panned shot as it emerged towering from behind the tress. It was just there. It felt clumsy or like Ridley simply didn't care enough for what should be quite important beat in the plot.
The storyline just happened. It felt like the story was written like 'Gets signal > Goes to planet > Infected > Protomorphs > David' and someone less that competent went in and wrote dialogue over the top. I know this is how most screenplays are written, but this felt unfinished with no polish. It didn't flow for me at all. As I was watching I was processing the information like writing down a mental list "The Captain is dead. Ok, he's the new Captain. He's religious. He's lacking in confidence.' At no point did I feel immersed in the film.
The cast were good enough. No stand out performances. I found James Franco dying immediately took me out the movie before it had even properly started. Thoughts like "Hmmm, maybe it was a favour to be in this movie because he is friends with Danny McBride. That must be it." This person should have been an unknown actor. It was odd and I'm sure it confused some audiences, maybe thinking he wasn't dead and would be returning somehow. Also, the more I saw of Daniels made me feel like her and James Franco would be such an unlikely pairing.
Daniels was good enough. I felt sorry for the actor as Ridley had just chucked her in there as a substitute Ripley and she has huge Powerloader boots to fill, it's an almost impossible feat, but she did well enough. Again, nothing exceptional.
Now I see people praising Danny McBride. I found his appearance distracting too. Knowing him primarily as Kenny Powers meant I could never take him seriously. When they establish contact with the team on the Planet after the storm and he says something like "I can't wait to see my wife again and tell her I love her" in such a clunky way it made me laugh out loud.
Shaw's fate just made me care even less for Prometheus. I couldn't believe they were making the same mistake as Alien 3, killing off key established characters from a previous movie depicting their struggle and triumph to survive horrible adversity.
David did annoy me. He was by far the best part about Prometheus, but in this he has been reduced to an artificial Hannibal Lecter, spouting out pretentious quotes like Bishop's severed torso. I found him quite irritating, his motives a bit blurry and Walter's accent didn't sit right with me at all.
Now comes the lore, which is pretty much most of the movie. I hate all of it since Prometheus. I wish it never happened. And the more that I watch of the prequels, the more it sullies the best sci-fi horror of all time.
When I was 7, we moved into this old house and my bedroom had a boiler room attached to it. That room terrified me, but not the room - It was the door. The door facing directly in my line of sight from my bed. Knowing that behind that door was complete darkness and strange clunking noises stopped me getting to sleep for the first few weeks, and I always kept an eye on the door to check if something was coming through it.
But then after a while I familiarise myself with the room behind the door. It was full of old pipes and a furnace, which explained the noises. The room had no windows, which is why it was so dark. It was nothing but an empty room with some pipes.
After that, I didn't care about the room. In fact, I was kind of embarrassed at myself that I'd ever be so scared of the room in the first place. The room I imagined as a portal to hell swirling with demons was in reality just some boring brick wall and plumbing.
That's this movie and the whole prequel lore. The Space Jockey is an Engineer pilot. The aliens are genetic experiments by an android created on Earth, using the same biotech that created all life on Earth. So really they are not Aliens, but Cousins.The magic trick is explained, I've seen the man behind the curtain, and it's all underwhelming. The film was called 'Alien' and it should remain as it's namesake. From the unknown, too different to comprehend. Now Ridley is helpfully showing us it's just a lab experiment by a crazy robot.
I can understand why people like this film. There is nothing particularly wrong with it. If you're hungry enough, the most average burger can be delicious. But I seem to have lost my appetite for the Alien films since Ridley took over. The fact that I, a huge fan of this franchise, sat through these two hours, saw the genesis of the Alien, the homeworld of the Engineers, and the closest thing we've had to the claustrophobic tunnel chases of Alien and felt absolutely nothing is a testament to just how bland this film is. The whole experience was quite depressing. Didn't hate it enough to slam it, didn't like it enough to give it any praise. And for that, it gets a 5/10.
Quote from: genocyber on May 24, 2017, 02:51:50 AM
I feel like Ridley Scott never understood the appeal of Alien to begin with. He should just call the next movie he makes David, because that's the only character who ever really mattered in these movies.
I totally agree, it's plain obvious he's not interested in anyone else
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 24, 2017, 10:53:05 AM
Quote from: Salt The Fries on May 24, 2017, 10:10:49 AM
Quote from: SyntaX on May 24, 2017, 10:05:59 AM
You know ... by listening to the score ... it made me realise the Med-Bay scene wasn't bad. It had the right amount of tension.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh_o19X5D2g&t=255s
Despite a few "WTF" moments though. Because, if you quarantine someone, make sure you don't have that persons blood splattered all over your face ;D
The moment Feris got Karine's blood on her face was when her composure cracked and everything went to shit. And it was beautifully directed and subtly felt.
I don't really get why people criticize her behavior in this seen. She quite clearly has a complete melt down and isn't acting rationally, something I felt Seimetz conveyed perfectly. The whole scene from the moment he falls ill is wonderfully constructed.
amazing performance in my opinion. also from the infected character
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 25, 2017, 01:17:33 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 25, 2017, 12:52:29 PMAlso, when Lope or (whatever his name was) was being chestbursted on the covenant, Daniels even had time to fry some eggs and take a nap.
The problem with Lope isn't how quickly it bursts out of him, but how quickly it got in there in the first place.
Kane was out with a Facehugger on him for the best part of a day. If it could've done it instantaneously like in Covenant, why would it keep him under for so long?
Maybe it just liked him? To be honest, it actually makes more sense that a facehugger would implant a host quickly. Perhaps not within 5 seconds, but certainly within an hour. It just isn't efficient to do it so slowly... especially for a "perfect organism".
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 25, 2017, 08:56:40 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 25, 2017, 01:17:33 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 25, 2017, 12:52:29 PMAlso, when Lope or (whatever his name was) was being chestbursted on the covenant, Daniels even had time to fry some eggs and take a nap.
The problem with Lope isn't how quickly it bursts out of him, but how quickly it got in there in the first place.
Kane was out with a Facehugger on him for the best part of a day. If it could've done it instantaneously like in Covenant, why would it keep him under for so long?
Maybe it just liked him? To be honest, it actually makes more sense that a facehugger would implant a host quickly. Perhaps not within 5 seconds, but certainly within an hour. It just isn't efficient to do it so slowly... especially for a "perfect organism".
Unless the facehugger is also doing other things to aid the gestation...
I've read in books and heard from other sources that the facehugger supplies the host with enzymes or something that soften bone to make it easier for the embryo to erupt through the chest cavity, as well as things that suppress the hosts immune system. I'd imagine the facehugger's success would also benefit from sticking around to make sure the host's body isn't rejecting the implantation somehow, and if so could perhaps alter the doses of immunosuppressants, etc...
Quote from: Engineer on May 25, 2017, 09:02:43 PM
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 25, 2017, 08:56:40 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 25, 2017, 01:17:33 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 25, 2017, 12:52:29 PMAlso, when Lope or (whatever his name was) was being chestbursted on the covenant, Daniels even had time to fry some eggs and take a nap.
The problem with Lope isn't how quickly it bursts out of him, but how quickly it got in there in the first place.
Kane was out with a Facehugger on him for the best part of a day. If it could've done it instantaneously like in Covenant, why would it keep him under for so long?
Maybe it just liked him? To be honest, it actually makes more sense that a facehugger would implant a host quickly. Perhaps not within 5 seconds, but certainly within an hour. It just isn't efficient to do it so slowly... especially for a "perfect organism".
Unless the facehugger is also doing other things to aid the gestation...
I've read in books and heard from other sources that the facehugger supplies the host with enzymes or something that soften bone to make it easier for the embryo to erupt through the chest cavity, as well as things that suppress the hosts immune system. I'd imagine the facehugger's success would also benefit from sticking around to make sure the host's body isn't rejecting the implantation somehow, and if so could perhaps alter the doses of immunosuppressants, etc...
Well anything can be explained, but more time ultimately leads to less efficiency. Perhaps the facehugger stayed longer on Kane for numerous reasons we can use to justify it, but the point is that this fact alone doesn't mean that the impregnation scene in AC was a plot hole etc. One just has to take it at face value... e.g why did the xeno in Aliens not have a smooth head? Etc.
I see it as a plot hole, because it's already been established in other canonical sources that the incubation is xx time frame, and that biochemistry manipulation (which takes time) is a necessary part of the process. Ridley just ignored all that. I believe the weyland yutani report goes into those details about the facehugger, and it was "cannon" before covenant was...
Good for you, but that's merely your subjective interpretation. The point is that it doesn't contradict anything in the films because the duration of impregnation is never definitively defined... just like gestation and the time it takes for chestburster to develop into an adult.
I would say Covenant makes it even less consistent. That's not a compliment.
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 25, 2017, 08:56:40 PMTo be honest, it actually makes more sense that a facehugger would implant a host quickly. Perhaps not within 5 seconds, but certainly within an hour. It just isn't efficient to do it so slowly... especially for a "perfect organism".
Something like that happening so quickly makes
less sense if you ask me. It taking a long time gave it a sense of believability, whereas if it's just instant it crosses over into movie super monster territory for me.
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 26, 2017, 05:27:33 AM
Good for you, but that's merely your subjective interpretation.
lol. I never said otherwise.
Long time since I've posted here, but like Kane (and others) I also need to get something off my chest...
Saw Covenant last weekend. Probably the worst film I've ever sat through. I think I actually felt my brain cells die while watching it.
First of all, the flute scene. Five minutes of an android teaching another android how to play the flute. What was the point of this scene? Same with all the name dropping of poets and composers. If they were meant to add some sort of depth to the film, the result was a failure. Overall, the intellectualism and philosophy of this film is so pretentious it's not even funny, just infuriating.
As with Prometheus, Covenant is paced horribly, the dialog is clumsy, and the characters are just as stupid. There is never a sense of any real threat, because you just never give a s**t about what happens to anybody. I found myself checking my phone to see how the Stanley Cup playoffs were going.
If this movie gets good ratings, nothing matters anymore. Just make a film look pretty and throw around some "deep" ideas, and people will love it.
I've been a fan of the series for over 20 years, but will not spend any more of my money for another monumental disappointment. Over and out.
Quote from: 8thPassenger on May 26, 2017, 02:55:22 PMI found myself checking my phone to see how the Stanley Cup playoffs were going.
In a darkened cinema? I'm relieved you won't be coming to any more Alien movies. ;)
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on May 26, 2017, 02:58:17 PM
Quote from: 8thPassenger on May 26, 2017, 02:55:22 PMI found myself checking my phone to see how the Stanley Cup playoffs were going.
In a darkened cinema? I'm relieved you won't be coming to any more Alien movies. ;)
Don't worry, there was hardly anybody else in the theater with me, and being quite the gentleman, I made sure nobody else was bothered.
Quote from: Mr. Clemens on May 26, 2017, 02:58:17 PM
Quote from: 8thPassenger on May 26, 2017, 02:55:22 PMI found myself checking my phone to see how the Stanley Cup playoffs were going.
In a darkened cinema? I'm relieved you won't be coming to any more Alien movies. ;)
Perhaps the Cinena was empty. It was when I went. And you saw the opening weekend performance, right? Lol, jk (sort of)
Quote from: 8thPassenger on May 26, 2017, 02:55:22 PM
Long time since I've posted here, but like Kane (and others) I also need to get something off my chest...
Saw Covenant last weekend. Probably the worst film I've ever sat through. I think I actually felt my brain cells die while watching it.
First of all, the flute scene. Five minutes of an android teaching another android how to play the flute. What was the point of this scene? Same with all the name dropping of poets and composers. If they were meant to add some sort of depth to the film, the result was a failure. Overall, the intellectualism and philosophy of this film is so pretentious it's not even funny, just infuriating.
Do you actually know anything about the philosophy being explored or the artists and poets? Maybe it's your ignorance of those subjects that infuriates you, and not the subjects themselves. I certainly wouldn't give what you say much credence if you're haven't read Shelley or Byron, or listened to Wagner, and actually understand something intimate about the novels, poetry and music on display. For me, what's infuriating is the ignorance of people like yourself who attack ideas that they know nothing about.
Are you sure it's a problem of ignorance on the philosophical concepts being explored? I'm familiar with those concepts, but I don't feel that it fits in with the series as established. It would have been better explored as a tangent or a completely different movie franchise. They just kind of shoved 'alien' and these philosophies together and it feels out of place to me. Interesting? yes, but just out of place.
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 03:46:32 PM
Quote from: 8thPassenger on May 26, 2017, 02:55:22 PM
Long time since I've posted here, but like Kane (and others) I also need to get something off my chest...
Saw Covenant last weekend. Probably the worst film I've ever sat through. I think I actually felt my brain cells die while watching it.
First of all, the flute scene. Five minutes of an android teaching another android how to play the flute. What was the point of this scene? Same with all the name dropping of poets and composers. If they were meant to add some sort of depth to the film, the result was a failure. Overall, the intellectualism and philosophy of this film is so pretentious it's not even funny, just infuriating.
Do you actually know anything about the philosophy being explored or the artists and poets? Maybe it's your ignorance of those subjects that infuriates you, and not the subjects themselves. I certainly wouldn't give what you say much credence if you're haven't read Shelley or Byron, or listened to Wagner, and actually understand something intimate about the novels, poetry and music on display. For me, what's infuriating is the ignorance of people like yourself who attack ideas that they know nothing about.
So you're telling me to enjoy an Alien movie, it is now a requirement to be versed in Bryon, and be familiar with the compositions of Wagner, and if not, you should be ashamed of your uncultured self while only the intellectual elites enjoy the film?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 03:46:32 PM
Quote from: 8thPassenger on May 26, 2017, 02:55:22 PM
Long time since I've posted here, but like Kane (and others) I also need to get something off my chest...
Saw Covenant last weekend. Probably the worst film I've ever sat through. I think I actually felt my brain cells die while watching it.
First of all, the flute scene. Five minutes of an android teaching another android how to play the flute. What was the point of this scene? Same with all the name dropping of poets and composers. If they were meant to add some sort of depth to the film, the result was a failure. Overall, the intellectualism and philosophy of this film is so pretentious it's not even funny, just infuriating.
Do you actually know anything about the philosophy being explored or the artists and poets? Maybe it's your ignorance of those subjects that infuriates you, and not the subjects themselves. I certainly wouldn't give what you say much credence if you're haven't read Shelley or Byron, or listened to Wagner, and actually understand something intimate about the novels, poetry and music on display. For me, what's infuriating is the ignorance of people like yourself who attack ideas that they know nothing about.
First of all, you must be fun at parties!
Second, rest assured I'm quite familiar with the ideas being thrown around.
Third, so a moviegoer has to "understand something intimate about the novels, poetry and music on display" (these were your words) to truly enjoy or criticize Covenant?
Fourth, I did not attack the ideas, I attacked their clumsy use in this particular film. Do you understand the difference?
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 04:02:01 PM
Are you sure it's a problem of ignorance on the philosophical concepts being explored? I'm familiar with those concepts, but I don't feel that it fits in with the series as established. It would have been better explored as a tangent or a completely different movie franchise. They just kind of shoved 'alien' and these philosophies together and it feels out of place to me. Interesting? yes, but just out of place.
Both Cameron made Aliens, the series was one film, an exercise in Gothic Horror. Then, with the sequel, it's Starship Troopers, or Zulu Dawn in outer space. If you can make that jarring of a switch, then why not explore the Romantic poets? How is Byron anymore out of place than Robert A. Heinlein, given how radically different Aliens is, in style and execution, to Alien. Stylistically those films are heading north and south. If Cameron can do whatever he likes with the series, why Scott, and why are his choices interesting but out of place? I'll tell you why, it's because Cameron's had a choke hold over the franchise for 32 years, and nowadays people don't expect anything else.
When Cameron made his changes, it was a fanboy geeking out over a single film. Scott, on the out hand, has to contend with a fanbase that's had over three decades to grow and establish its own expectations. That's why his ideas feel out of place. That's why people call them unwelcome or pretentious, because they run counter-current with what they know and are familiar with as an audience, and as individuals. Yet I suspect a majority of the people who label Scott's changes as pretentious probably don't read poetry or books, and are only familiar with these authors by name. Given their lack of understanding with these concepts, they assume them to be empty and contribute nothing to the franchise, but what's really empty in this case are their own heads.
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 04:14:29 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 04:02:01 PM
Are you sure it's a problem of ignorance on the philosophical concepts being explored? I'm familiar with those concepts, but I don't feel that it fits in with the series as established. It would have been better explored as a tangent or a completely different movie franchise. They just kind of shoved 'alien' and these philosophies together and it feels out of place to me. Interesting? yes, but just out of place.
Both Cameron made Aliens, the series was one film, an exercise in Gothic Horror. Then, with the sequel, it's Starship Troopers, or Zulu Dawn in outer space. If you can make that jarring of a switch, then why not explore the Romantic poets? How is Byron anymore out of place than Robert A. Heinlein, given how radically different Aliens is, in style and execution, to Alien. Stylistically those films are heading north and south. If Cameron can do whatever he likes with the series, why Scott, and why are his choices interesting but out of place? I'll tell you why, it's because Cameron's had a choke hold over the franchise for 32 years, and nowadays people don't expect anything else.
When Cameron made his changes, it was a fanboy geeking out over a single film. Scott, on the out hand, has to contend with a fanbase that's had over three decades to grow and establish its own expectations. That's why his ideas feel out of place. That's why people call them unwelcome or pretentious, because they run counter-current with what they know and are familiar with as an audience, and as individuals. Yet I suspect a majority of the people who label Scott's changes as pretentious probably don't read poetry or books, and are only familiar with these authors by name. Given their lack of understanding with these concepts, they assume them to be empty and contribute nothing to the franchise, but what's really empty in this case are their own heads.
There were plenty philosophical ideas presented in aliens. And alien...
Alien was all about gender role reversal. Men being raped and forced to bare a child. And ripley being the hero which was a first for women in a film like this at the time (common place now). Aliens continued that idea, but in a different way... ripley was still the hero. But then add in an emphasis on motherhood instead of child birth. Ripley becomes the surrogate mother for newt. Has a showdown with the queen, mother to the aliens. Etc...
These are deep messages that make you think just the same. These motifies are what fits 'alien' and switching now to 'creation' just doesn't jive well... of course, this is just my opinion :-)
Oh and Cameron doesn't have a choke hold over the franchise. He hasn't been involved since 'aliens.' That's all fox, my man...
Quote from: Bughunter S. Thomson on May 26, 2017, 04:09:00 PM
So you're telling me to enjoy an Alien movie, it is now a requirement to be versed in Bryon, and be familiar with the compositions of Wagner, and if not, you should be ashamed of your uncultured self while only the intellectual elites enjoy the film?
It is if these things are if they are used in the film AND you want to say something about their use in the film that actually communicates that you know what you're talking about, rather than demonstrating your own ignorance on those subjects, yes.
If you don't understand the allusion, how can you comment on it belonging or not belonging in the film other than by simply saying you don't get it, because you are not well-read and it sailed right over your uneducated head?
Quote from: 8thPassenger on May 26, 2017, 04:12:27 PM
First of all, you must be fun at parties!
I don't go to parties. I do give good head, though, for what that's worth.
Quote from: 8thPassenger on May 26, 2017, 04:12:27 PM
Second, rest assured I'm quite familiar with the ideas being thrown around.
Hearing about them in everyday speech and actually recognizing them from close inspection (aka: reading) of the parent material are two completely different things. Do you read scholarship on Byron, or Shelley? Have you read their works. Or did you read the name Byron on the internet and assume that that qualifies you as being "familiar" with him or his works?
Quote from: 8thPassenger on May 26, 2017, 04:12:27 PM
Third, so a moviegoer has to "understand something intimate about the novels, poetry and music on display" (these were your words) to truly enjoy or criticize Covenant?
Enjoy? Who knows why people enjoy anything. As for criticism, then, yes, if those are subjects that film concerns itself with. If you enter a room and the discussion of the day is free indirect discourse in Austen novels, and you've never read a Jane Austen novel nor do you know what said discourse is, how can you effectively contribute anything substantial to the conversation? If all you can say is "I don't know what those things are," that's not criticism. That's you being ignorant. Likewise, if you know f**k-all i nregards to these subjects, how can you say they're pretentious?
Quote from: 8thPassenger on May 26, 2017, 04:12:27 PM
Fourth, I did not attack the ideas, I attacked their clumsy use in this particular film. Do you understand the difference?
You did not make that distinction. You wrote "the intellectualism and philosophy of this film is so pretentious..." Perhaps if you wrote "the intellectualism and philosophy of this film, which is largely ideas borrowed from Shelley and Byron, is clumsily implemented, to the point that it fails to communicate what the original authors intended, and is pretentious." It all boils down to a good thesis, which yours wasn't.
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 04:29:43 PM
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 04:14:29 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 04:02:01 PM
Are you sure it's a problem of ignorance on the philosophical concepts being explored? I'm familiar with those concepts, but I don't feel that it fits in with the series as established. It would have been better explored as a tangent or a completely different movie franchise. They just kind of shoved 'alien' and these philosophies together and it feels out of place to me. Interesting? yes, but just out of place.
Both Cameron made Aliens, the series was one film, an exercise in Gothic Horror. Then, with the sequel, it's Starship Troopers, or Zulu Dawn in outer space. If you can make that jarring of a switch, then why not explore the Romantic poets? How is Byron anymore out of place than Robert A. Heinlein, given how radically different Aliens is, in style and execution, to Alien. Stylistically those films are heading north and south. If Cameron can do whatever he likes with the series, why Scott, and why are his choices interesting but out of place? I'll tell you why, it's because Cameron's had a choke hold over the franchise for 32 years, and nowadays people don't expect anything else.
When Cameron made his changes, it was a fanboy geeking out over a single film. Scott, on the out hand, has to contend with a fanbase that's had over three decades to grow and establish its own expectations. That's why his ideas feel out of place. That's why people call them unwelcome or pretentious, because they run counter-current with what they know and are familiar with as an audience, and as individuals. Yet I suspect a majority of the people who label Scott's changes as pretentious probably don't read poetry or books, and are only familiar with these authors by name. Given their lack of understanding with these concepts, they assume them to be empty and contribute nothing to the franchise, but what's really empty in this case are their own heads.
There were plenty philosophical ideas presented in aliens. And alien...
Alien was all about gender role reversal. Men being raped and forced to bare a child. And ripley being the hero which was a first for women in a film like this at the time (common place now). Aliens continued that idea, but in a different way... ripley was still the hero. But then add in an emphasis on motherhood instead of child birth. Ripley becomes the surrogate mother for newt. Has a showdown with the queen, mother to the aliens. Etc...
These are deep messages that make you think just the same. These motifies are what fits 'alien' and switching now to 'creation' just doesn't jive well... of course, this is just my opinion :-)
Oh and Cameron doesn't have a choke hold over the franchise. He hasn't been involved since 'aliens.' That's all fox, my man...
Are you sure it was gender reversal that was on the minds of the filmmakers at the time, or the interpretation by fans in the following years? I think it's the latter.
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 03:46:32 PM
Quote from: 8thPassenger on May 26, 2017, 02:55:22 PM
Long time since I've posted here, but like Kane (and others) I also need to get something off my chest...
Saw Covenant last weekend. Probably the worst film I've ever sat through. I think I actually felt my brain cells die while watching it.
First of all, the flute scene. Five minutes of an android teaching another android how to play the flute. What was the point of this scene? Same with all the name dropping of poets and composers. If they were meant to add some sort of depth to the film, the result was a failure. Overall, the intellectualism and philosophy of this film is so pretentious it's not even funny, just infuriating.
Do you actually know anything about the philosophy being explored or the artists and poets? Maybe it's your ignorance of those subjects that infuriates you, and not the subjects themselves. I certainly wouldn't give what you say much credence if you're haven't read Shelley or Byron, or listened to Wagner, and actually understand something intimate about the novels, poetry and music on display. For me, what's infuriating is the ignorance of people like yourself who attack ideas that they know nothing about.
While I agree that understanding the ideas behind an the intentions of an artist is
very valuable and makes the experience more enjoyable, I don't think a person has to have all of this knowledge to form an opinion.
At the heart of the flute scene is an interesting moment where an older brother (David) is trying to teach his younger sibling (Walter) that it's okay to use free will to be able to create and be something more than what you were intended for. But Walter lives by the natural laws of how he's made, and even though he learns how to play the flute, he could care less because it's not part of his programming. He even throws what David tried to teach him in his face by saying his model disturbed people because he was to human.
It's one of the best scenes in the movie and perfectly played by Michael Fassbender.
Quote from: Bughunter S. Thomson on May 26, 2017, 04:32:33 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 04:29:43 PM
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 04:14:29 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 04:02:01 PM
Are you sure it's a problem of ignorance on the philosophical concepts being explored? I'm familiar with those concepts, but I don't feel that it fits in with the series as established. It would have been better explored as a tangent or a completely different movie franchise. They just kind of shoved 'alien' and these philosophies together and it feels out of place to me. Interesting? yes, but just out of place.
Both Cameron made Aliens, the series was one film, an exercise in Gothic Horror. Then, with the sequel, it's Starship Troopers, or Zulu Dawn in outer space. If you can make that jarring of a switch, then why not explore the Romantic poets? How is Byron anymore out of place than Robert A. Heinlein, given how radically different Aliens is, in style and execution, to Alien. Stylistically those films are heading north and south. If Cameron can do whatever he likes with the series, why Scott, and why are his choices interesting but out of place? I'll tell you why, it's because Cameron's had a choke hold over the franchise for 32 years, and nowadays people don't expect anything else.
When Cameron made his changes, it was a fanboy geeking out over a single film. Scott, on the out hand, has to contend with a fanbase that's had over three decades to grow and establish its own expectations. That's why his ideas feel out of place. That's why people call them unwelcome or pretentious, because they run counter-current with what they know and are familiar with as an audience, and as individuals. Yet I suspect a majority of the people who label Scott's changes as pretentious probably don't read poetry or books, and are only familiar with these authors by name. Given their lack of understanding with these concepts, they assume them to be empty and contribute nothing to the franchise, but what's really empty in this case are their own heads.
There were plenty philosophical ideas presented in aliens. And alien...
Alien was all about gender role reversal. Men being raped and forced to bare a child. And ripley being the hero which was a first for women in a film like this at the time (common place now). Aliens continued that idea, but in a different way... ripley was still the hero. But then add in an emphasis on motherhood instead of child birth. Ripley becomes the surrogate mother for newt. Has a showdown with the queen, mother to the aliens. Etc...
These are deep messages that make you think just the same. These motifies are what fits 'alien' and switching now to 'creation' just doesn't jive well... of course, this is just my opinion :-)
Oh and Cameron doesn't have a choke hold over the franchise. He hasn't been involved since 'aliens.' That's all fox, my man...
Are you sure it was gender reversal that was on the minds of the filmmakers at the time, or the interpretation by fans in the following years? I think it's the latter.
At the time, no it wasn't on my mind, admittedly. But after some thought and hearing Dan O'Bannon's intent made me think about it. And as a 5 year old seeing the movies for the first time, I wasn't smart enough to understand all that. As I got older it became more obvious...
You can pose philosophical questions in many ways, sometimes without even using words. Copy and pasting Bryon is not only lazy writing, but alienates audiences, who won't care enough to do research of David quotes to see the meaning behind a lot of what he meant by those words. This is NOT the fault of the movie goer.
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 04:29:43 PM
There were plenty philosophical ideas presented in aliens. And alien...
Yes, though generally visually through cinematic imagery and not dialogue. The moment you have a dialogue or soliloquy pertaining to direct quotes from a book, it's a different kind of discourse. It's not longer the audience simply looking at pictures and requires a part of the brain that isn't used when processing what you're seeing onscreen. It also requires a certain amount of education, which in terms requires literacy and the patience to read books, which people who watch movies don't always have.
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 04:29:43 PM
Alien was all about gender role reversal. Men being raped and forced to bare a child. And ripley being the hero which was a first for women in a film like this at the time (common place now). Aliens continued that idea, but in a different way... ripley was still the hero. But then add in an emphasis on motherhood instead of child birth. Ripley becomes the surrogate mother for newt. Has a showdown with the queen, mother to the aliens. Etc...
Again, communicated visually for the most part. But had these characters discussed the rapes onscreen through the quoting of "The Fig Tree" by Sylvia Plath or "The Tree" by Ezra Pound, doubtless individuals would call it pretentious without knowing the significance of the allusion, with Daphne avoiding the rape of Apollo by being fashioned into a tree. I would have enjoyed a good poem or two cited in Alien, but that's just my opinion. My brother is a classical pianist, and when he learned of Wagner being performed, onscreen, in Covenant, he didn't think it was pretentious at all. He was delighted by the idea, because he could appreciate the selection, just as he and I appreciated the reading of a passage from "The Love Song of Alfred J. Prufrock," by T. S. Eliot, in the movie, It Follows.
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 04:29:43 PM
These are deep messages that make you think just the same. These motifies are what fits 'alien' and switching now to 'creation' just doesn't jive well... of course, this is just my opinion :-)
We all have them, don't we?
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 04:29:43 PM
Oh and Cameron doesn't have a choke hold over the franchise. He hasn't been involved since 'aliens.' That's all fox, my man...
Regardless, his vision has a legion of fans that expect nothing else, and cry "Havoc!" when their favorite themes are shunned for alternate ones.
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 04:02:01 PM
Are you sure it's a problem of ignorance on the philosophical concepts being explored? I'm familiar with those concepts, but I don't feel that it fits in with the series as established. It would have been better explored as a tangent or a completely different movie franchise. They just kind of shoved 'alien' and these philosophies together and it feels out of place to me. Interesting? yes, but just out of place.
I believe it fits in perfectly. If covenant was just another bug hunt like Alien(s) it would be forgotten pretty easily by most people. Religion sparks some of the most interesting debates about what our purpose in life is and what will become of us after we die. These are some of the most important questions of all time and have shaped history by influencing both great and lesser minds. Again, Covenant is a thinking man's sci-fi and on the same level as Stanley Kubrick's 2001 : A space odyssey imo. It shows we shouldn't tamper with nature too much and that we will ultimately destroy ourselves by our own genius and creativity.
For example: If it were possible in the next 50 years or so to create androids to do all the difficult chores for us, should we? What if the AI we created does eventually turn on us since we're physically much weaker than it...These themes have also been addressed in films like Terminator or A.I. I believe this is food for thought and Ridley, turning 80 next year, seems to wonder about these questions as well...I think it's great all these themes are represented in my all-time favourite franchise.
Judging by the box office it's already being forgotten.
I don't think a handful of quotations make it more than an upscale Friday the 13th. IMO that's what it is after they reach the citadel.
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 04:14:29 PM
Before Cameron made Aliens, the series was one film, an exercise in Gothic Horror. Then, with the sequel, it's Starship Troopers, or Zulu Dawn in outer space. If you can make that jarring of a switch, then why not explore the Romantic poets? How is Byron anymore out of place than Robert A. Heinlein, given how radically different Aliens is, in style and execution, to Alien. Stylistically those films are heading north and south. If Cameron can do whatever he likes with the series, why Scott, and why are his choices interesting but out of place? I'll tell you why, it's because Cameron's had a choke hold over the franchise for 32 years, and nowadays people don't expect anything else.
When Cameron made his changes, it was a fanboy geeking out over a single film. Scott, on the out hand, has to contend with a fanbase that's had over three decades to grow and establish its own expectations. That's why his ideas feel out of place. That's why people call them unwelcome or pretentious, because they run counter-current with what they know and are familiar with as an audience, and as individuals. Yet I suspect a majority of the people who label Scott's changes as pretentious probably don't read poetry or books, and are only familiar with these authors by name. Given their lack of understanding with these concepts, they assume them to be empty and contribute nothing to the franchise, but what's really empty in this case are their own heads.
Agree completely.
Quote from: Bughunter S. Thomson on May 26, 2017, 04:45:30 PM
You can pose philosophical questions in many ways, sometimes without even using words. Copy and pasting Bryon is not only lazy writing, but alienates audiences, who won't care enough to do research of David quotes to see the meaning behind a lot of what he meant by those words. This is NOT the fault of the movie goer.
Audience members have expectations, but those vary. In regards to keeping things dumb enough for them to understand, if they aren't educated, this could be those individuals expectations. In my case, I expect a film to be intelligent enough to engage my mind and my interests. It seems Ridley also expects something out of his audience, such as being able to appreciate the classical selections he's peppered his film with. Perhaps his expectations are misguided, but I don't blame him for inserting these quotes into his picture and making his film for a certain audience. Perhaps he wasn't interested in bread and circus for the masses, like Cameron is?
So, no, it's not the audience's fault they can't appreciate Byron, quoted or otherwise. Infants are innocent by accident of birth, and yet their little brains are still empty all the same. Should I ask them about Byron and expect anything of substance to come pouring forth from their little mouths? Those who attack Covenant can do so all they like, but they need to realize that movies aren't always made for them. These persons aren't the center of the universe in regards to the franchise; and just because they don't like the film doesn't mean that it is a poorly-made picture. It just means they themselves don't like it.
Clearly Scott has demonstrated that he can make a film with other things in mind other than the needs and wants of a particular group of individuals. He kept the name "Alien" because it can be whatever he wants it to be. He's the creator.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 04:54:33 PM
Judging by the box office it's already being forgotten.
Good thing its budget is so low and Scott is relying on foreign markets and not just domestic ones. More than one way to skin a cat.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 04:54:33 PM
I don't think a handful of quotations make it more than an upscale Friday the 13th. IMO that's what it is after they reach the citadel.
Interesting. Similar criticisms were made in regards to Alien, when it was in theaters, almost 40 years ago: the slasher film in space.
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 05:01:19 PM
Quote from: Bughunter S. Thomson on May 26, 2017, 04:45:30 PM
You can pose philosophical questions in many ways, sometimes without even using words. Copy and pasting Bryon is not only lazy writing, but alienates audiences, who won't care enough to do research of David quotes to see the meaning behind a lot of what he meant by those words. This is NOT the fault of the movie goer.
Audience members have expectations, but those vary. In regards to keeping things dumb enough for them to understand, if they aren't educated, this could be those individuals expectations. In my case, I expect a film to be intelligent enough to engage my mind and my interests. It seems Ridley also expects something out of his audience, such as being able to appreciate the classical selections he's peppered his film with. Perhaps his expectations are misguided, but I don't blame him for inserting these quotes into his picture and making his film for a certain audience. Perhaps he wasn't interested in bread and circus for the masses, like Cameron is?
So, no, it's not the audience's fault they can't appreciate Byron, quoted or otherwise. Infants are innocent by accident of birth, and yet their little brains are still empty all the same. Should I ask them about Byron and expect anything of substance to come pouring forth from their little mouths? Those who attack Covenant can do so all they like, but they need to realize that movies aren't always made for them. These persons aren't the center of the universe in regards to the franchise; and just because they don't like the film doesn't mean that it is a poorly-made picture. It just means they themselves don't like it.
Clearly Scott has demonstrated that he can make a film with other things in mind other than the needs and wants of a particular group of individuals. He kept the name "Alien" because it can be whatever he wants it to be. He's the creator.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 04:54:33 PM
Judging by the box office it's already being forgotten.
Good thing its budget is so low and Scott is relying on foreign markets and not just domestic ones. More than one way to skin a cat.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 04:54:33 PM
I don't think a handful of quotations make it more than an upscale Friday the 13th. IMO that's what it is after they reach the citadel.
Interesting. Similar criticisms were made in regards to Alien, when it was in theaters, almost 40 years ago: the slasher film in space.
Actually Dan O'Bannon and another guy who's name escapes me at the moment are the creators of 'alien.' Ridley scott had surprisingly little creative control over the story. I think he's given too much credit for being the "creator of alien."
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 04:47:38 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 04:29:43 PM
There were plenty philosophical ideas presented in aliens. And alien...
Yes, though generally visually through cinematic imagery and not dialogue. The moment you have a dialogue or soliloquy pertaining to direct quotes from a book, it's a different kind of discourse. It's not longer the audience simply looking at pictures and requires a part of the brain that isn't used when processing what you're seeing onscreen. It also requires a certain amount of education, which in terms requires literacy and the patience to read books, which people who watch movies don't always have.
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 04:29:43 PM
Alien was all about gender role reversal. Men being raped and forced to bare a child. And ripley being the hero which was a first for women in a film like this at the time (common place now). Aliens continued that idea, but in a different way... ripley was still the hero. But then add in an emphasis on motherhood instead of child birth. Ripley becomes the surrogate mother for newt. Has a showdown with the queen, mother to the aliens. Etc...
Again, communicated visually for the most part. But had these characters discussed the rapes onscreen through the quoting of "The Fig Tree" by Sylvia Plath or "The Tree" by Ezra Pound, doubtless individuals would call it pretentious without knowing the significance of the allusion, with Daphne avoiding the rape of Apollo by being fashioned into a tree. I would have enjoyed a good poem or two cited in Alien, but that's just my opinion. My brother is a classical pianist, and when he learned of Wagner being performed, onscreen, in Covenant, he didn't think it was pretentious at all. He was delighted by the idea, because he could appreciate the selection, just as he and I appreciated the reading of a passage from "The Love Song of Alfred J. Prufrock," by T. S. Eliot, in the movie, It Follows.
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 04:29:43 PM
These are deep messages that make you think just the same. These motifies are what fits 'alien' and switching now to 'creation' just doesn't jive well... of course, this is just my opinion :-)
We all have them, don't we?
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 04:29:43 PM
Oh and Cameron doesn't have a choke hold over the franchise. He hasn't been involved since 'aliens.' That's all fox, my man...
Regardless, his vision has a legion of fans that expect nothing else, and cry "Havoc!" when their favorite themes are shunned for alternate ones.
Communicating the themes are not what I'm questioning here. Visual or verbal, doesn't matter. I'm purely referring to the themes that are being explored. Had NO verbal references to poems etc... been provided in covenant, only visual references to the same themes, it would still feel out of place to me.
After seeing it 3 times at the cinema, I thought I'd record an updated review...
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 05:12:58 PM
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 05:01:19 PM
Quote from: Bughunter S. Thomson on May 26, 2017, 04:45:30 PM
You can pose philosophical questions in many ways, sometimes without even using words. Copy and pasting Bryon is not only lazy writing, but alienates audiences, who won't care enough to do research of David quotes to see the meaning behind a lot of what he meant by those words. This is NOT the fault of the movie goer.
Audience members have expectations, but those vary. In regards to keeping things dumb enough for them to understand, if they aren't educated, this could be those individuals expectations. In my case, I expect a film to be intelligent enough to engage my mind and my interests. It seems Ridley also expects something out of his audience, such as being able to appreciate the classical selections he's peppered his film with. Perhaps his expectations are misguided, but I don't blame him for inserting these quotes into his picture and making his film for a certain audience. Perhaps he wasn't interested in bread and circus for the masses, like Cameron is?
So, no, it's not the audience's fault they can't appreciate Byron, quoted or otherwise. Infants are innocent by accident of birth, and yet their little brains are still empty all the same. Should I ask them about Byron and expect anything of substance to come pouring forth from their little mouths? Those who attack Covenant can do so all they like, but they need to realize that movies aren't always made for them. These persons aren't the center of the universe in regards to the franchise; and just because they don't like the film doesn't mean that it is a poorly-made picture. It just means they themselves don't like it.
Clearly Scott has demonstrated that he can make a film with other things in mind other than the needs and wants of a particular group of individuals. He kept the name "Alien" because it can be whatever he wants it to be. He's the creator.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 04:54:33 PM
Judging by the box office it's already being forgotten.
Good thing its budget is so low and Scott is relying on foreign markets and not just domestic ones. More than one way to skin a cat.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 04:54:33 PM
I don't think a handful of quotations make it more than an upscale Friday the 13th. IMO that's what it is after they reach the citadel.
Interesting. Similar criticisms were made in regards to Alien, when it was in theaters, almost 40 years ago: the slasher film in space.
Actually Dan O'Bannon and another guy who's name escapes me at the moment are the creators of 'alien.' Ridley scott had surprisingly little creative control over the story. I think he's given too much credit for being the "creator of alien."
Dan O'Bannon, Ron Shusett, Walter Hill, David Giler, and of course Ridley Scott. *EDIT * I forgot to include Giger, probably the most important. All of them came together to make Alien what it is. All were integeral and without one of them the movie would not have been as good.
If i remember correctly, Ridley had to weigh in and demand Gigers involvment, otherwise no one would listen to OBannon and we wouldnt even be here today talking about this lol.
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 05:01:19 PM
Quote from: Bughunter S. Thomson on May 26, 2017, 04:45:30 PM
You can pose philosophical questions in many ways, sometimes without even using words. Copy and pasting Bryon is not only lazy writing, but alienates audiences, who won't care enough to do research of David quotes to see the meaning behind a lot of what he meant by those words. This is NOT the fault of the movie goer.
Audience members have expectations, but those vary. In regards to keeping things dumb enough for them to understand, if they aren't educated, this could be those individuals expectations. In my case, I expect a film to be intelligent enough to engage my mind and my interests. It seems Ridley also expects something out of his audience, such as being able to appreciate the classical selections he's peppered his film with. Perhaps his expectations are misguided, but I don't blame him for inserting these quotes into his picture and making his film for a certain audience. Perhaps he wasn't interested in bread and circus for the masses, like Cameron is?
So, no, it's not the audience's fault they can't appreciate Byron, quoted or otherwise. Infants are innocent by accident of birth, and yet their little brains are still empty all the same. Should I ask them about Byron and expect anything of substance to come pouring forth from their little mouths? Those who attack Covenant can do so all they like, but they need to realize that movies aren't always made for them. These persons aren't the center of the universe in regards to the franchise; and just because they don't like the film doesn't mean that it is a poorly-made picture. It just means they themselves don't like it.
Clearly Scott has demonstrated that he can make a film with other things in mind other than the needs and wants of a particular group of individuals. He kept the name "Alien" because it can be whatever he wants it to be. He's the creator.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 04:54:33 PM
Judging by the box office it's already being forgotten.
Good thing its budget is so low and Scott is relying on foreign markets and not just domestic ones. More than one way to skin a cat.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 04:54:33 PM
I don't think a handful of quotations make it more than an upscale Friday the 13th. IMO that's what it is after they reach the citadel.
Interesting. Similar criticisms were made in regards to Alien, when it was in theaters, almost 40 years ago: the slasher film in space.
The quotes didn't even fit the context of David. Would it not make sense for him to have his own philosophical take on existence? He's had long enough to ponder the mysteries of life. For an android who sees humans as inferior, he sure looks to the word of man for enlightenment, which seems a complete contradiction. Having his own thoughts as dialogue would give the character the exposition he really needed.
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 05:12:58 PM
Communicating the themes are not what I'm questioning here. Visual or verbal, doesn't matter. I'm purely referring to the themes that are being explored. Had NO verbal references to poems etc... been provided in covenant, only visual references to the same themes, it would still feel out of place to me.
To each his own.
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 26, 2017, 05:19:05 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 05:12:58 PM
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 05:01:19 PM
Quote from: Bughunter S. Thomson on May 26, 2017, 04:45:30 PM
You can pose philosophical questions in many ways, sometimes without even using words. Copy and pasting Bryon is not only lazy writing, but alienates audiences, who won't care enough to do research of David quotes to see the meaning behind a lot of what he meant by those words. This is NOT the fault of the movie goer.
Audience members have expectations, but those vary. In regards to keeping things dumb enough for them to understand, if they aren't educated, this could be those individuals expectations. In my case, I expect a film to be intelligent enough to engage my mind and my interests. It seems Ridley also expects something out of his audience, such as being able to appreciate the classical selections he's peppered his film with. Perhaps his expectations are misguided, but I don't blame him for inserting these quotes into his picture and making his film for a certain audience. Perhaps he wasn't interested in bread and circus for the masses, like Cameron is?
So, no, it's not the audience's fault they can't appreciate Byron, quoted or otherwise. Infants are innocent by accident of birth, and yet their little brains are still empty all the same. Should I ask them about Byron and expect anything of substance to come pouring forth from their little mouths? Those who attack Covenant can do so all they like, but they need to realize that movies aren't always made for them. These persons aren't the center of the universe in regards to the franchise; and just because they don't like the film doesn't mean that it is a poorly-made picture. It just means they themselves don't like it.
Clearly Scott has demonstrated that he can make a film with other things in mind other than the needs and wants of a particular group of individuals. He kept the name "Alien" because it can be whatever he wants it to be. He's the creator.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 04:54:33 PM
Judging by the box office it's already being forgotten.
Good thing its budget is so low and Scott is relying on foreign markets and not just domestic ones. More than one way to skin a cat.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 04:54:33 PM
I don't think a handful of quotations make it more than an upscale Friday the 13th. IMO that's what it is after they reach the citadel.
Interesting. Similar criticisms were made in regards to Alien, when it was in theaters, almost 40 years ago: the slasher film in space.
Actually Dan O'Bannon and another guy who's name escapes me at the moment are the creators of 'alien.' Ridley scott had surprisingly little creative control over the story. I think he's given too much credit for being the "creator of alien."
Dan O'Bannon, Ron Shusett, Walter Hill, David Giler, and of course Ridley Scott. All of them came together to make Alien what it is. All were integeral and without one of them the movie would not have been as good.
This is very true and I agree. Ridley is a master of getting good imagery nailed down. I just don't think he's a good story teller.
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 05:21:13 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 05:12:58 PM
Communicating the themes are not what I'm questioning here. Visual or verbal, doesn't matter. I'm purely referring to the themes that are being explored. Had NO verbal references to poems etc... been provided in covenant, only visual references to the same themes, it would still feel out of place to me.
To each his own.
That's all I was really getting at. I don't think it's fair to assume or call anyone ignorant for criticizing the the film and it's themes.
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 05:12:58 PM
Actually Dan O'Bannon and another guy who's name escapes me at the moment are the creators of 'alien.' Ridley Scott had surprisingly little creative control over the story. I think he's given too much credit for being the "creator of alien."
Many 'fans' seem to hold this view in recent years. It's not a view shared by anyone who worked on ALIEN - from O'Bannon, Giger and everyone further down the tree, they all cite Scott as the man who orchestrated the pool of talent, and brought the best from their work. Scott's own storyboards alone massively increased the budget and the studios aspirations for the film. ALIEN would have simply been Inseminoid without Scott.
Quote from: Gash on May 26, 2017, 05:26:17 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 05:12:58 PM
Actually Dan O'Bannon and another guy who's name escapes me at the moment are the creators of 'alien.' Ridley Scott had surprisingly little creative control over the story. I think he's given too much credit for being the "creator of alien."
Many 'fans' seem to hold this view in recent years. It's not a view shared by anyone who worked on ALIEN - from O'Bannon, Giger and everyone further down the tree, they all cite Scott as the man who orchestrated the pool of talent, and brought the best from their work. Scott's own storyboards alone massively increased the budget and the studios aspirations for the film. ALIEN would have simply been Inseminoid without Scott.
My comment was only in reference to the story. Ridley didn't write. But yes his contributions were important.
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 05:28:42 PM
Quote from: Gash on May 26, 2017, 05:26:17 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 05:12:58 PM
Actually Dan O'Bannon and another guy who's name escapes me at the moment are the creators of 'alien.' Ridley Scott had surprisingly little creative control over the story. I think he's given too much credit for being the "creator of alien."
Many 'fans' seem to hold this view in recent years. It's not a view shared by anyone who worked on ALIEN - from O'Bannon, Giger and everyone further down the tree, they all cite Scott as the man who orchestrated the pool of talent, and brought the best from their work. Scott's own storyboards alone massively increased the budget and the studios aspirations for the film. ALIEN would have simply been Inseminoid without Scott.
My comment was only in reference to the story. Ridley didn't write. But yes his contributions were important.
He's Herr Direktor ;) It's his film and no one else's.
Quote from: Snake on May 26, 2017, 05:33:53 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 05:28:42 PM
Quote from: Gash on May 26, 2017, 05:26:17 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 05:12:58 PM
Actually Dan O'Bannon and another guy who's name escapes me at the moment are the creators of 'alien.' Ridley Scott had surprisingly little creative control over the story. I think he's given too much credit for being the "creator of alien."
Many 'fans' seem to hold this view in recent years. It's not a view shared by anyone who worked on ALIEN - from O'Bannon, Giger and everyone further down the tree, they all cite Scott as the man who orchestrated the pool of talent, and brought the best from their work. Scott's own storyboards alone massively increased the budget and the studios aspirations for the film. ALIEN would have simply been Inseminoid without Scott.
My comment was only in reference to the story. Ridley didn't write. But yes his contributions were important.
He's Herr Direktor ;) It's his film and no one else's.
And he's a fantastic director as long as he's not involved in writing the story. ;-)
Quote from: Bughunter S. Thomson on May 26, 2017, 05:20:07 PM
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 05:01:19 PM
Quote from: Bughunter S. Thomson on May 26, 2017, 04:45:30 PM
You can pose philosophical questions in many ways, sometimes without even using words. Copy and pasting Bryon is not only lazy writing, but alienates audiences, who won't care enough to do research of David quotes to see the meaning behind a lot of what he meant by those words. This is NOT the fault of the movie goer.
Audience members have expectations, but those vary. In regards to keeping things dumb enough for them to understand, if they aren't educated, this could be those individuals expectations. In my case, I expect a film to be intelligent enough to engage my mind and my interests. It seems Ridley also expects something out of his audience, such as being able to appreciate the classical selections he's peppered his film with. Perhaps his expectations are misguided, but I don't blame him for inserting these quotes into his picture and making his film for a certain audience. Perhaps he wasn't interested in bread and circus for the masses, like Cameron is?
So, no, it's not the audience's fault they can't appreciate Byron, quoted or otherwise. Infants are innocent by accident of birth, and yet their little brains are still empty all the same. Should I ask them about Byron and expect anything of substance to come pouring forth from their little mouths? Those who attack Covenant can do so all they like, but they need to realize that movies aren't always made for them. These persons aren't the center of the universe in regards to the franchise; and just because they don't like the film doesn't mean that it is a poorly-made picture. It just means they themselves don't like it.
Clearly Scott has demonstrated that he can make a film with other things in mind other than the needs and wants of a particular group of individuals. He kept the name "Alien" because it can be whatever he wants it to be. He's the creator.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 04:54:33 PM
Judging by the box office it's already being forgotten.
Good thing its budget is so low and Scott is relying on foreign markets and not just domestic ones. More than one way to skin a cat.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 04:54:33 PM
I don't think a handful of quotations make it more than an upscale Friday the 13th. IMO that's what it is after they reach the citadel.
Interesting. Similar criticisms were made in regards to Alien, when it was in theaters, almost 40 years ago: the slasher film in space.
The quotes didn't even fit the context of David. Would it not make sense for him to have his own philosophical take on existence? He's had long enough to ponder the mysteries of life. For an android who sees humans as inferior, he sure looks to the word of man for enlightenment, which seems a complete contradiction. Having his own thoughts as dialogue would give the character the exposition he really needed.
That contradiction is half the point though, these are the things that make him so interesting. To me anyway.
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 05:01:19 PM
Interesting. Similar criticisms were made in regards to Alien, when it was in theaters, almost 40 years ago: the slasher film in space.
Yeah, I'm well aware. The point is
Alien became much more than that due to top-quality production, capable talent and careful storytelling and smart screenwriting.
AC has the first two but comes apart due to the utter lack of original or compelling new story. It leans on fan service and falls victim to hackeneyed horror tropes
Alien would've pissed on. It's a pastiche of tired old storylines this franchise and its many merchandised products have rehashed for decades (evil android! alien rampage! you guys like the alien, right?? domestic box office will do well, right???). It does nothing new for itself. That's why it fails its cast and its production crew. And its audience.
Ridley Scott is a brilliant visualist and a great idea man; he also needs people to tell him 'no'. When he has none, no structure, and is speedballing based on the latest thought to cross his mind, you get this. The entire
Alien franchise spelled out to the last detail and now centering around his latest obsession: Talented actor Michael Fassbender. Other characters, ideas, innovations rendered irrelevant. Just give the rubes the alien and we'll call it a night. And when he did give them the alien (wholly unnecessary) he squandered it. The film is a studio-tested IKEA widget of a variety of existing movie parts designed to wow at Comicon, wrapped in the shiny ribbon of a brilliant thespian to make Ridley feel slightly less lazy. And it still hasn't succeeded.
I can appreciate Byron just fine, BTW. That still doesn't make this movie any more than a lukewarm greatest hits platter with a few literary references from SparkNotes. I'll eat it if it's the only thing around - that doesn't mean I'm going to convince myself it's filet mignon.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 06:03:18 PM
That's why it fails its cast and its production crew. And its audience.
According to the poll at the top of this thread, the vast majority here enjoyed it.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 26, 2017, 08:25:29 AM
Quote from: Darth Vile on May 25, 2017, 08:56:40 PMTo be honest, it actually makes more sense that a facehugger would implant a host quickly. Perhaps not within 5 seconds, but certainly within an hour. It just isn't efficient to do it so slowly... especially for a "perfect organism".
Something like that happening so quickly makes less sense if you ask me. It taking a long time gave it a sense of believability, whereas if it's just instant it crosses over into movie super monster territory for me.
If you look at many of the parasite beasties here on Earth, that lay eggs in their hosts, the process is a rather quick one. The time the facehugger spent on Kane was more a device to buld suspense and mystery (which was obviously great), rather than one based on logical/practical reasons for a facehugger staying attached for hours.
https://youtu.be/s5VrG6R99MQ?list=PLOBrIn_hAaGe-fEMNQzpER40lNk4hglA6
^ This is a good review, I think. It's not glowing but it feels honest, by a couple of fellas who don't just skewer the film, but they don't worship it either. James loves Alien(s) and liked Prometheus, and he doesn't really like the others. My views feel similar to his, in general, in regards to the series, so I expect I may have a similar reaction. Time will tell.
My favorite thing about their review is that they explain how the first two films are the best, and that they are way above par. Then, to call a film like Covenant above par, they further explain that while it rises above the median, it doesn't climb to the same acme or zenith as the first two films, do. In other words, while Covenant is, according to them, the 3rd best in the series and a good film, it doesn't come anywhere close to the heights that Alien(s) reach.
And it's important to be able to classify things like that, I think, when tossing around terms like "good" and "bad." It's like people who call Pluto a planet, but according to Neil deGrasse Tyson, it's so small compared to them--similar in size of our moon, or smaller than it, even (I forget its exact size)--that to call it planet is a blatant misnomer, requiring further terms and specificity. When calling a film good, you have to be able to further clarify things by establishing the acme of the series, and its nadir, and explaining that good is anything on one side of the fence, and bad, the other. Yet, just because something is good, this doesn't mean it is the best, so it's important to attach names to the poles (Alien(s) vs AvP:R) and then put your film on the sliding scale accordingly. In relation to where that film is on the scale compared to the poles, you will have effectively illustrated your argument in a way that most people can understand.
But a good critic should be able to take it a step further and persuasively explain why he chose any object for either pole in his dichotomy. I'll admit, James and Mike's review is a little light on detail, but James is one to appreciate a film for what it is, even if this requires him to check his brain at the door. He can enjoy popcorn flicks, and recognize when films are truly entertaining. He is, I would posit, an effective connoisseur, selective about what he views, but able to appreciate what he selects to watch; he's consistent, and the movies he likes, I like, and the trash he boycotts, I wouldn't watch short of you holding a gun to my head.
Quote from: Gash on May 26, 2017, 06:17:22 PM
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 06:03:18 PM
That's why it fails its cast and its production crew. And its audience.
According to the poll at the top of this thread, the vast majority here enjoyed it.
I'm shocked,
shocked to find mass approval on the
Alien-themed Internet forum!
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 06:18:48 PM
https://youtu.be/s5VrG6R99MQ?list=PLOBrIn_hAaGe-fEMNQzpER40lNk4hglA6
^ This is a good review, I think. It's not glowing but it feels honest, by a couple of fellas who don't just skewer the film, but they don't worship it either. James loves Alien(s) and liked Prometheus, and he doesn't really like the others. My views feel similar to his, in general, in regards to the series, so I expect I may have a similar reaction. Time will tell.
My favorite thing about their review is that they explain how the first two films are the best, and that they are way above par. Then, to call a film like Covenant above par, they further explain that while it rises above the median, it doesn't climb to the same acme or zenith as the first two films, do. In other words, while Covenant is, according to them, the 3rd best in the series and a good film, it doesn't come anywhere close to the heights that Alien(s) reach.
And it's important to be able to classify things like that, I think, when tossing around terms like "good" and "bad." It's like people who call Pluto a planet, but according to Neil deGrasse Tyson, it's so small compared to them--similar in size of our moon, or smaller than it, even (I forget its exact size)--that to call it planet is a blatant misnomer, requiring further terms and specificity. When calling a film good, you have to be able to further clarify things by establishing the acme of the series, and its nadir, and explaining that good is anything on one side of the fence, and bad, the other. Yet, just because something is good, this doesn't mean it is the best, so it's important to attach names to the poles (Alien(s) vs AvP:R) and then put your film on the sliding scale accordingly. In relation to where that film is on the scale compared to the poles, you will have effectively illustrated your argument in a way that most people can understand.
But a good critic should be able to take it a step further and persuasively explain why he chose any object for either pole in his dichotomy. I'll admit, James and Mike's review is a little light on detail, but James is one to appreciate a film for what it is, even if this requires him to check his brain at the door. He can enjoy popcorn flicks, and recognize when films are truly entertaining. He is, I would posit, an effective connoisseur, selective about what he views, but able to appreciate what he selects to watch; he's consistent, and the movies he likes, I like, and the trash he boycotts, I wouldn't watch short of you holding a gun to my head.
I'd imagine most of us would agree that none of the films come close to Alien and Aliens. Those two are up there with Raiders of the Lost Ark, The Empire Strikes Back, The Thing, Terminator 2...
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 06:20:06 PM
Quote from: Gash on May 26, 2017, 06:17:22 PM
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 06:03:18 PM
That's why it fails its cast and its production crew. And its audience.
According to the poll at the top of this thread, the vast majority here enjoyed it.
I'm shocked, shocked to find mass approval on the Alien-themed Internet forum!
Yeah, so am I given the proliferation of very vocal Aliens fan boys. But there you are, apparently even on a forum that is going to have the hardest audience to please it hasn't failed by any reasonable measure.
I'd say it evens itself out. Yes, you're gonna have people who like it purely because its Alien, but you're also gonna have the mega hardcore types who are going to critique it much more.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 06:03:18 PM
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 05:01:19 PM
Interesting. Similar criticisms were made in regards to Alien, when it was in theaters, almost 40 years ago: the slasher film in space.
Yeah, I'm well aware. The point is Alien became much more than that due to top-quality production, capable talent and careful storytelling and smart screenwriting.
AC has the first two but comes apart due to the utter lack of original or compelling new story. It leans on fan service and falls victim to hackeneyed horror tropes Alien would've pissed on. It's a pastiche of tired old storylines this franchise and its many merchandised products have rehashed for decades (evil android! alien rampage! you guys like the alien, right?? domestic box office will do well, right???). It does nothing new for itself. That's why it fails its cast and its production crew. And its audience.
Ridley Scott is a brilliant visualist and a great idea man; he also needs people to tell him 'no'. When he has none, no structure, and is speedballing based on the latest thought to cross his mind, you get this. The entire Alien franchise spelled out to the last detail and now centering around his latest obsession: Talented actor Michael Fassbender. Other characters, ideas, innovations rendered irrelevant. Just give the rubes the alien and we'll call it a night. And when he did give them the alien (wholly unnecessary) he squandered it. The film is a studio-tested IKEA widget of a variety of existing movie parts designed to wow at Comicon, wrapped in the shiny ribbon of a brilliant thespian to make Ridley feel slightly less lazy. And it still hasn't succeeded.
I can appreciate Byron just fine, BTW. That still doesn't make this movie any more than a lukewarm greatest hits platter with a few literary references from SparkNotes. I'll eat it if it's the only thing around - that doesn't mean I'm going to convince myself it's filet mignon.
That's the big thing I felt too... the movie hurt itself by throwing the alien in. Had he stuck with the Prometheus route, and made David's creation something reminecient of the alien but still different (like the neomorphs) it would have been better. Still in the alien universe but free to explore whatever themes he wanted and retaining a unique identity. But the second he added the alien to it, he's associating these new themes with the old and it just doesn't mesh well. The only purpose the inclusion of the alien served was to appease alien fans (and yes, I'm including myself in that). It wasn't necessary to have the alien at all for the story he was trying to tell, and I think by having the alien appear it backfired... the movie started going downhill at that point for me.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 06:20:06 PM
Quote from: Gash on May 26, 2017, 06:17:22 PM
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 06:03:18 PM
That's why it fails its cast and its production crew. And its audience.
According to the poll at the top of this thread, the vast majority here enjoyed it.
I'm shocked, shocked to find mass approval on the Alien-themed Internet forum!
You can't just wave off those that like the film as just being mindless fans. I respect the fact you don't like it and you should respect those that do. I don't think it's anything like a slasher movie, far from it but you do and that's fine, we view it differently.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 26, 2017, 06:53:32 PM
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 06:20:06 PM
Quote from: Gash on May 26, 2017, 06:17:22 PM
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 06:03:18 PM
That's why it fails its cast and its production crew. And its audience.
According to the poll at the top of this thread, the vast majority here enjoyed it.
I'm shocked, shocked to find mass approval on the Alien-themed Internet forum!
You can't just wave off those that like the film as just being mindless fans.
I didn't say that. But I do find the response predictable and so should you.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 06:03:18 PM
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 05:01:19 PM
Interesting. Similar criticisms were made in regards to Alien, when it was in theaters, almost 40 years ago: the slasher film in space.
Yeah, I'm well aware. The point is Alien became much more than that due to top-quality production, capable talent and careful storytelling and smart screenwriting.
AC has the first two but comes apart due to the utter lack of original or compelling new story.
Curious. I was asking myself if it would have all three, here:
Alas, perhaps it does, and maybe it won't be anything more than slightly above average. Films like Alien and Aliens are rare, because they're hard to make, even in the hands of a skilled veteran like Scott, or Cameron. Yes, Cameron makes boatloads of money but that doesn't elevate a lot of his more recent films to "great" status, by any means.
I have not watched your videos but I can safely say I think the film is definitely not average or above average. Production-wise yes, it is fantastically crafted. Overall it's a mess. And trying to put AC up against Cameron's lowest light is a mistake, IMO.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 07:01:54 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 26, 2017, 06:53:32 PM
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 06:20:06 PM
Quote from: Gash on May 26, 2017, 06:17:22 PM
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 26, 2017, 06:03:18 PM
That's why it fails its cast and its production crew. And its audience.
According to the poll at the top of this thread, the vast majority here enjoyed it.
I'm shocked, shocked to find mass approval on the Alien-themed Internet forum!
You can't just wave off those that like the film as just being mindless fans.
I didn't say that. But I do find the response predictable and so should you.
So what did you mean by your comment because that's how it came across to me
I dunno...
Why can't they do characters being likable anymore? Alien, Alien3 and to some extent, AVP are more creepy than this.
This film was alright....like Alien Resurrection...just alright. :/
Are we supposed to root for David or to hope for his death? So much focus on Fassbender lately. It almost feels like that Ridley Scott wanted to put some Bladerunner into this. Robots who turn intelligent and stuff..
So many open questions. Did David just exterminate the Space Jockeys now? Are they now entirely out of the game ? An advanced species that habitates just one single planet? Why did David even shed a tear over them? Is this supposed to make David "deep"? If yes, it failed in doing so. Does the director even care about such questions?
I can't decribe it, but this flick has no soul.
2/5 :-\
Quote from: stroggificated on May 26, 2017, 07:23:05 PM
I dunno...
Why can't they do characters being likable anymore? Alien, Alien3 and to some extent, AVP are more creepy than this.
This film was alright....like Alien Resurrection...just alright. :/
Are we supposed to root for David or to hope for his death? So much focus on Fassbender lately. It almost feels like that Ridley Scott wanted to put some Bladerunner into this. Robots who turn intelligent and stuff..
So many open questions. Did David just exterminate the Space Jockeys now? Are they now entirely out of the game ? An advanced species that habitates just one single planet? Why did David even shed a tear over them? Is this supposed to make David "deep"? If yes, it failed in doing so. Does the director even care about such questions?
I can't decribe it, but this flick has no soul.
2/5 :-\
I'm just going to pretend I didn't read any of this...
Quote from: Snake on May 26, 2017, 07:26:58 PM
Quote from: stroggificated on May 26, 2017, 07:23:05 PM
I dunno...
Why can't they do characters being likable anymore? Alien, Alien3 and to some extent, AVP are more creepy than this.
This film was alright....like Alien Resurrection...just alright. :/
Are we supposed to root for David or to hope for his death? So much focus on Fassbender lately. It almost feels like that Ridley Scott wanted to put some Bladerunner into this. Robots who turn intelligent and stuff..
So many open questions. Did David just exterminate the Space Jockeys now? Are they now entirely out of the game ? An advanced species that habitates just one single planet? Why did David even shed a tear over them? Is this supposed to make David "deep"? If yes, it failed in doing so. Does the director even care about such questions?
I can't decribe it, but this flick has no soul.
2/5 :-\
I'm just going to pretend I didn't read any of this...
I completely agree with this.The film didn't provoke much emotion from me apart from irritation
Yeah. Very very hollow. The main character is an android with almost no feelings... I think we could describe Covenant just as David: sleek but manufactured, with a wrong and deficient logic.
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 04:31:22 PM
I don't go to parties. I do give good head, though, for what that's worth.
Have some self respect man.
And you really should watch the film first before you start ripping into other people's reviews, no matter how you attempt to justify it.
Quote from: Magegg on May 26, 2017, 08:33:11 PM
Yeah. Very very hollow. The main character is an android with almost no feelings... I think we could describe Covenant just as David: sleek but manufactured, with a wrong and deficient logic.
That would be the royal
we presumably?
Quote from: Bughunter S. Thomson on May 26, 2017, 08:31:17 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 26, 2017, 07:26:58 PM
Quote from: stroggificated on May 26, 2017, 07:23:05 PM
I dunno...
Why can't they do characters being likable anymore? Alien, Alien3 and to some extent, AVP are more creepy than this.
This film was alright....like Alien Resurrection...just alright. :/
Are we supposed to root for David or to hope for his death? So much focus on Fassbender lately. It almost feels like that Ridley Scott wanted to put some Bladerunner into this. Robots who turn intelligent and stuff..
So many open questions. Did David just exterminate the Space Jockeys now? Are they now entirely out of the game ? An advanced species that habitates just one single planet? Why did David even shed a tear over them? Is this supposed to make David "deep"? If yes, it failed in doing so. Does the director even care about such questions?
I can't decribe it, but this flick has no soul.
2/5 :-\
I'm just going to pretend I didn't read any of this...
I completely agree with this.The film didn't provoke much emotion from me apart from irritation
I agree too... and why pretend not to read it? He's not saying anything new here; others have already said the same thing once or twice or more before and you read that. It's an opinion; everybody has one whether you agree with it or not.
*sigh* I'm going to miss Ridley when he's gone...I mean, who's there to replace him? He's practically in a league of his own when it comes to making a clever sci-fi...The only directors I can think of that even come close to him are Nolan, Del Toro or Cuaron...
Prometheus isn't a perfect movie at all...but I'll always remember Chopin's 'raindrop prelude' being part of the soundtrack. That was genius.
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 08:38:40 PM
Quote from: Bughunter S. Thomson on May 26, 2017, 08:31:17 PM
Quote from: Snake on May 26, 2017, 07:26:58 PM
Quote from: stroggificated on May 26, 2017, 07:23:05 PM
I dunno...
Why can't they do characters being likable anymore? Alien, Alien3 and to some extent, AVP are more creepy than this.
This film was alright....like Alien Resurrection...just alright. :/
Are we supposed to root for David or to hope for his death? So much focus on Fassbender lately. It almost feels like that Ridley Scott wanted to put some Bladerunner into this. Robots who turn intelligent and stuff..
So many open questions. Did David just exterminate the Space Jockeys now? Are they now entirely out of the game ? An advanced species that habitates just one single planet? Why did David even shed a tear over them? Is this supposed to make David "deep"? If yes, it failed in doing so. Does the director even care about such questions?
I can't decribe it, but this flick has no soul.
2/5 :-\
I'm just going to pretend I didn't read any of this...
I completely agree with this.The film didn't provoke much emotion from me apart from irritation
I agree too... and why pretend not to read it? He's not saying anything new here; others have already said the same thing once or twice or more before and you read that. It's an opinion; everybody has one whether you agree with it or not.
You're absolutey right. I really connected to the characters, something I struggled to do with Prometheus, others were the other way round.
We all take something different away from a film. I'm interested in reading all these views whether they liked the film or not but too many people, on both sides of the fence, feel the need to express an opinion as fact and make ridiculous sweeping statements.
And, likewise, turn combative towards someone who expresses an opposing view/opinion related to the film...
Quote from: Predaker on May 26, 2017, 08:35:15 PM
Have some self respect man.
What makes you think I don't?
Quote from: Predaker on May 26, 2017, 08:35:15 PM
And you really should watch the film first before you start ripping into other people's reviews, no matter how you attempt to justify it.
If someone makes a shit argument, I'll attack the argument for it's faulty execution all I wish. Maybe it's a pretty big risk for a science officer, not out of the manual, but all the same one that I'm willing to take, because again, I'm attacking the execution of their argument, not the veracity of their eyewitness testimony.
Quote from: Gash on May 26, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
Quote from: Magegg on May 26, 2017, 08:33:11 PM
Yeah. Very very hollow. The main character is an android with almost no feelings... I think we could describe Covenant just as David: sleek but manufactured, with a wrong and deficient logic.
That would be the royal we presumably?
He's a robot, of course he doesn't has human emotions! Dudes please...
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 09:37:43 PM
Quote from: Predaker on May 26, 2017, 08:35:15 PM
Have some self respect man.
What makes you think I don't?
That was in reply to this, which was your reply to someone sarcastically remarking how fun you must be at parties:
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 04:31:22 PM
I don't go to parties. I do give good head, though, for what that's worth.
How much is that worth, though? $20?
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 26, 2017, 09:37:43 PM
Quote from: Predaker on May 26, 2017, 08:35:15 PM
And you really should watch the film first before you start ripping into other people's reviews, no matter how you attempt to justify it.
If someone makes a shit argument, I'll attack the argument for it's faulty execution all I wish. Maybe it's a pretty big risk for a science officer, not out of the manual, but all the same one that I'm willing to take, because again, I'm attacking the execution of their argument, not the veracity of their eyewitness testimony.
You can do that all you want but it won't change the fact that you're still coming from a place of ignorance.
Quote from: Snake on May 26, 2017, 10:30:43 PM
Quote from: Gash on May 26, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
Quote from: Magegg on May 26, 2017, 08:33:11 PM
Yeah. Very very hollow. The main character is an android with almost no feelings... I think we could describe Covenant just as David: sleek but manufactured, with a wrong and deficient logic.
That would be the royal we presumably?
He's a robot, of course he doesn't has human emotions! Dudes please...
Crying, trying to rape Daniels, lying, sarcastic, egomaniacal, psychotic, God complex, genocidal... You could have fooled me... Could he be MORE human...!? 😂💩
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 27, 2017, 12:18:47 AM
Quote from: Snake on May 26, 2017, 10:30:43 PM
Quote from: Gash on May 26, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
Quote from: Magegg on May 26, 2017, 08:33:11 PM
Yeah. Very very hollow. The main character is an android with almost no feelings... I think we could describe Covenant just as David: sleek but manufactured, with a wrong and deficient logic.
That would be the royal we presumably?
He's a robot, of course he doesn't has human emotions! Dudes please...
Crying, trying to rape Daniels, lying, sarcastic, egomaniacal, psychotic, God complex, genocidal... You could have fooled me... Could he be MORE human...!? 😂💩
Don't forget... he also loved Dr. Shaw
I feel bad for the folks who hated Covenant enough to come here and post that hate and negativity over and over and over again. Its like they have some personal vendetta against the film. Seen it with so many alien films now it starts to feel comical.
Still not even close to the utter loathing and contempt that alien3 recieved upon release though. The reaction to AC is about the same as when Prometheus came out maybe. Hard to tell really, a lot of alien fans hated aliens when it came out too. (Lots of fans still hate aliens and the queen.)
Quote from: Predaker on May 26, 2017, 10:45:12 PM
You can do that all you want but it won't change the fact that you're still coming from a place of ignorance.
Am I? I know the plot, which the reviews are constructed around. And often-times, these individuals use arguments aimed at explaining the film to people who haven't seen the film. They're designed to be seen and understood by individuals who are, as you put it ignorant. If this is true, I, as an ignorant person, should be able to critique their so-called review based simply on its contents. Whether or not I've seen Covenant is irrelevant, as a result, as is my so-called ignorance.
Furthermore, if I can dismantle an argument from a place of ignorance, what does that say about the argument, itself?
For example, people say they like Aliens; the same individuals say they hate Covenant, because it has stupid behavior in it. Their statement makes no sense, in that form, because Aliens also has stupid behavior in it, in spades. They would need to expand their thesis to something along the lines of, "Aliens' stupid behavior doesn't get in the way of it being entertaining because [insert argument, here]" but if they don't, their argument is weak. Without having seen Covenant, I can point this out. Seeing that film isn't necessary for another reason--that is, because the argument of "stupid behavior" will revolve around plot points, which I am familiar with, again, without having seen the film, because the reviewer has told them to me in order for me to be able to understand his so-called argument. The reviewer is required to explain the film in some shape or form to even make his points, to begin with, which I can attack based solely on what he provides.
So, in regards to attacking an argument that the critic makes, I am not ignorant at all. Rather, I am armed by this person with the very tools needed to defeat him. Anything else that I could be ignorant of, in regards to the film, simply doesn't matter, as I only need to know enough to point out the flaws in his argument, which he will have provided for me ironically in order to understand him. So, your statement, while it may be true, is still irrelevant and utterly pointless in regards to what I am doing with critics.
Also, $20? Bitch, please. Triple digits, easy.
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 27, 2017, 12:52:02 AM
Quote from: Predaker on May 26, 2017, 10:45:12 PM
You can do that all you want but it won't change the fact that you're still coming from a place of ignorance.
Am I? I know the plot, which the reviews are constructed around. And often-times, these individuals use arguments aimed at explaining the film to people who haven't seen the film. They're designed to be seen and understood by individuals who are, as you put it ignorant. If this is true, I, as an ignorant person, should be able to critique their so-called review based simply on its contents. Whether or not I've seen Covenant is irrelevant, as a result, as is my so-called ignorance.
Furthermore, if I can dismantle an argument from a place of ignorance, what does that say about the argument, itself?
For example, people say they like Aliens; the same individuals say they hate Covenant, because it has stupid behavior in it. Their statement makes no sense, in that form, because Aliens also has stupid behavior in it, in spades. They would need to expand their thesis to something along the lines of, "Aliens' stupid behavior doesn't get in the way of it being entertaining because [insert argument, here]" but if they don't, their argument is weak. Without having seen Covenant, I can point this out. Seeing that film isn't necessary for another reason--that is, because the argument of "stupid behavior" will revolve around plot points, which I am familiar with, again, without having seen the film, because the reviewer has told them to me in order for me to be able to understand his so-called argument. The reviewer is required to explain the film in some shape or form to even make his points, to begin with, which I can attack based solely on what he provides.
So, in regards to attacking an argument that the critic makes, I am not ignorant at all. Rather, I am armed by this person with the very tools needed to defeat him. Anything else that I could be ignorant of, in regards to the film, simply doesn't matter, as I only need to know enough to point out the flaws in his argument, which he will have provided for me ironically in order to understand him. So, your statement, while it may be true, is still irrelevant and utterly pointless in regards to what I am doing with critics.
Also, $20? Bitch, please. Triple digits, easy.
But to call someone out as ignorant when you have no idea what their background is, academic or otherwise, is in itself ignorant. It's ignorance of the person you are insulting. Argue and debate all you want. But refrain from name calling for your own sake. Forum rules exist for a reason, and not many people will take anything you have to say seriously if you start off calling them "ignorant."
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 01:12:47 AM
But to call someone out as ignorant when you have no idea what their background is, academic or otherwise, is in itself ignorant. It's ignorance of the person you are insulting. Argue and debate all you want. But refrain from name calling for your own sake. Forum rules exist for a reason, and not many people will take anything you have to say seriously if you start off calling them "ignorant."
Forum rules exist for many reasons, largely so people can refer to them needlessly like here, in this case. It doesn't matter what his background is. If he wants to be treated as something other than an ignorant individual, by me, he can demonstrate it in his rhetoric. Otherwise, we're all strangers, here, defined purely by what we say. And as far as I'm concerned what he said was that of an ignorant person. Call me blunt, if you wish, but it's not the same thing as me calling him names the way you are insinuating; I can demonstrate ignorance. Hypothetically, him being a f**k-face, if I were to call him that (and I'm not)? Well, that's in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 27, 2017, 01:33:04 AM
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 01:12:47 AM
But to call someone out as ignorant when you have no idea what their background is, academic or otherwise, is in itself ignorant. It's ignorance of the person you are insulting. Argue and debate all you want. But refrain from name calling for your own sake. Forum rules exist for a reason, and not many people will take anything you have to say seriously if you start off calling them "ignorant."
Forum rules exist for many reasons, largely so people can refer to them needlessly like here, in this case. It doesn't matter what his background is. If he wants to be treated as something other than an ignorant individual, by me, he can demonstrate it in his rhetoric. Otherwise, we're all strangers, here, defined purely by what we say. And as far as I'm concerned what he said was that of an ignorant person. Call me blunt, if you wish, but it's not the same thing as me calling him names the way you are insinuating; I can demonstrate ignorance. Hypothetically, him being a f**k-face, if I were to call him that (and I'm not)? Well, that's in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?
Since when is being called ignorant a compliment?
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 27, 2017, 12:18:47 AM
Quote from: Snake on May 26, 2017, 10:30:43 PM
Quote from: Gash on May 26, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
Quote from: Magegg on May 26, 2017, 08:33:11 PM
Yeah. Very very hollow. The main character is an android with almost no feelings... I think we could describe Covenant just as David: sleek but manufactured, with a wrong and deficient logic.
That would be the royal we presumably?
He's a robot, of course he doesn't has human emotions! Dudes please...
Crying, trying to rape Daniels, lying, sarcastic, egomaniacal, psychotic, God complex, genocidal... You could have fooled me... Could he be MORE human...!? 😂💩
::) David doesn't have a soul, therefore his feelings/emotions aren't real, he only emulates them. They make these guys...pretty close.
Not too close I hope.
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 08:38:40 PM
I agree too... and why pretend not to read it? He's not saying anything new here; others have already said the same thing once or twice or more before and you read that. It's an opinion; everybody has one whether you agree with it or not.
I might have crossed the line with AVP and Alien Resurrection. ;D
I can only hope the next movie gets better. I really reached the point of indifference/apathy to this franchise since I watched Covenant.
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 01:36:11 AM
Since when is being called ignorant a compliment?
Why is that so important? I'm not interested in discourse consisting entirely of compliments. At the same time, calling someone ignorant, if it is merited, is not the same thing as doling out random insults.
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 27, 2017, 11:16:07 AM
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 01:36:11 AM
Since when is being called ignorant a compliment?
Why is that so important? I'm not interested in discourse consisting entirely of compliments. At the same time, calling someone ignorant, if it is merited, is not the same thing as doling out random insults.
merited?! Lmfao! Oh please. It's an insult no matter how you slice it. The only purpose of saying it is to degrade. Doesn't matter if there's any truth to it or not. you could have gotten your message across just fine without saying it at all. It's all about the rhetoric right?
And by the way, forum rules exist so the conversations, no matter how heated they may get, stay respectful and mature. Like I said before, no one is going to take what you say seriously if you immediately attack and start doling out insults. So there's really no point to it.
PS. All I'm saying here is take it down a notch. We're all fans, and we can have a mature conversation about the movie without getting all worked up.
Quote from: stroggificated on May 27, 2017, 10:36:14 AM
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 08:38:40 PM
I agree too... and why pretend not to read it? He's not saying anything new here; others have already said the same thing once or twice or more before and you read that. It's an opinion; everybody has one whether you agree with it or not.
I might have crossed the line with AVP and Alien Resurrection. ;D
I can only hope the next movie gets better. I really reached the point of indifference/apathy to this franchise since I watched Covenant.
Lol. If that's how you feel. But I thought you hit the nail on the head; I found it hard to care about any of the characters. They were acted better, but the pacing didn't allow me to get to know the characters so when they died I just shrugged it off.
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 01:42:31 PM
I found it hard to care about any of the characters. ..the pacing didn't allow me to get to know the characters so when they died I just shrugged it off.
Got used to that feeling in 1986.
Quote from: Gash on May 27, 2017, 02:10:14 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 01:42:31 PM
I found it hard to care about any of the characters. ..the pacing didn't allow me to get to know the characters so when they died I just shrugged it off.
Got used to that feeling in 1986.
Not an "aliens" fan?
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 01:42:31 PM
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 27, 2017, 11:16:07 AM
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 01:36:11 AM
Since when is being called ignorant a compliment?
Why is that so important? I'm not interested in discourse consisting entirely of compliments. At the same time, calling someone ignorant, if it is merited, is not the same thing as doling out random insults.
merited?! Lmfao! Oh please. It's an insult no matter how you slice it. The only purpose of saying it is to degrade. Doesn't matter if there's any truth to it or not. you could have gotten your message across just fine without saying it at all. It's all about the rhetoric right?
And by the way, forum rules exist so the conversations, no matter how heated they may get, stay respectful and mature. Like I said before, no one is going to take what you say seriously if you immediately attack and start doling out insults. So there's really no point to it.
PS. All I'm saying here is take it down a notch. We're all fans, and we can have a mature conversation about the movie without getting all worked up.
Quote from: stroggificated on May 27, 2017, 10:36:14 AM
Quote from: Engineer on May 26, 2017, 08:38:40 PM
I agree too... and why pretend not to read it? He's not saying anything new here; others have already said the same thing once or twice or more before and you read that. It's an opinion; everybody has one whether you agree with it or not.
I might have crossed the line with AVP and Alien Resurrection. ;D
I can only hope the next movie gets better. I really reached the point of indifference/apathy to this franchise since I watched Covenant.
Lol. If that's how you feel. But I thought you hit the nail on the head; I found it hard to care about any of the characters. They were acted better, but the pacing didn't allow me to get to know the characters so when they died I just shrugged it off.
Not even Oram?
No the only person I really cared about was Tennessee.
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 01:42:31 PM
merited?! Lmfao! Oh please. It's an insult no matter how you slice it. The only purpose of saying it is to degrade.
Oh, really? According to whom, you? Well, forgive me if you and I don't see eye to eye in this regard. If I wanted to insult and degrade the individual as you suggest, there are much better ways of going about it, because insulting him or degrading him purely for the sake of it was not my intent. My aim is to enlighten, and sometimes, to do this, you have to burst some bubbles. I can assure you no lasting damage has been done; he'll live. As for whether or not he'll listen, that is ultimately up to him. I can delicately coax a horse to the water or I can motivate more forcefully but either way he drinks or doesn't drink of his own accord; if I could control his mind and force him to, I haven't persuaded him to do anything.
Ultimately you're telling me that my approach isn't effective because it constitutes an unwarranted attack. I disagree on two points: one, that it's any less effective that the approach you're prescribing and two, that it's even an attack, to begin with.
Tennessee because his character took some time to develop. He was the last to get down to the planet and we learned more about him as a person before he arrived and was thrust into danger. That scene when he found out his wife died? Gut wrenching performance!
On the flip side, when Daniels husband died, I didn't care because we didn't know them. I don't think we were meant to care about the captain, but we were supposed to care that Daniels cared. And it didn't work for me.
Quote from: NickisSmart on May 27, 2017, 02:22:01 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 01:42:31 PM
merited?! Lmfao! Oh please. It's an insult no matter how you slice it. The only purpose of saying it is to degrade.
Oh, really? According to whom, you? Well, forgive me if you and I don't see eye to eye in this regard. If I wanted to insult and degrade the individual as you suggest, there are much better ways of going about it, because insulting him or degrading him purely for the sake of it was not my intent. My aim is to enlighten, and sometimes, to do this, you have to burst some bubbles. I can assure you no lasting damage has been done; he'll live. As for whether or not he'll listen, that is ultimately up to him. I can delicately coax a horse to the water or I can motivate more forcefully but either way he drinks or doesn't drink of his own accord; if I could control his mind and force him to, I haven't persuaded him to do anything.
Ultimately you're telling me that my approach isn't effective because it constitutes an unwarranted attack. I disagree on two points: one, that it's any less effective that the approach you're prescribing and two, that it's even an attack, to begin with.
I'm done. I said my piece. Take it or leave it. ;-)
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 02:24:29 PM
Tennessee because his character took some time to develop. He was the last to get down to the planet and we learned more about him as a person before he arrived and was thrust into danger. That scene when he found out his wife died? Gut wrenching performance!
On the flip side, when Daniels husband died, I didn't care because we didn't know them. I don't think we were meant to care about the captain, but we were supposed to care that Daniels cared. And it didn't work for me.
I liked Tennessee and Daniels tbh but I felt Oram was the most fleshed out character and had the best arc. Next time you watch it you might appreciate him a little more.
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 02:24:29 PM
I'm done. I said my piece. Take it or leave it. ;-)
As have I. Much ado about nothing, really. Thanks for bringing it up. Very insightful. :)
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 27, 2017, 02:27:50 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 02:24:29 PM
Tennessee because his character took some time to develop. He was the last to get down to the planet and we learned more about him as a person before he arrived and was thrust into danger. That scene when he found out his wife died? Gut wrenching performance!
On the flip side, when Daniels husband died, I didn't care because we didn't know them. I don't think we were meant to care about the captain, but we were supposed to care that Daniels cared. And it didn't work for me.
I liked Tennessee and Daniels tbh but I felt Oram was the most fleshed out character and had the best arc. Next time you watch it you might appreciate him a little more.
I'll keep an open mind but I'm doubtful. Orem was fleshed out, sure, but I didn't like his character all that much. Personal taste, really. I think I'll enjoy the book more than the movie to be honest. I'm sure we'll get to know all the characters better in that medium.
But they're completely different. The difference between the novelization of Alien and the film is night and day. They're completely different in tone, execution and scope. The fault here lies in one being an adaptation of the other, and the results vary even more drastically depending on if a book is made into a film or vice versa. The results are almost always unsatisfying.
I gathered.
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 27, 2017, 12:45:49 AM
I feel bad for the folks who hated Covenant enough to come here and post that hate and negativity over and over and over again. Its like they have some personal vendetta against the film. Seen it with so many alien films now it starts to feel comical.
Still not even close to the utter loathing and contempt that alien3 recieved upon release though. The reaction to AC is about the same as when Prometheus came out maybe. Hard to tell really, a lot of alien fans hated aliens when it came out too. (Lots of fans still hate aliens and the queen.)
I suppose you can't expect fans to totally disconnect with fandom just because they didn't like Covenant. I don't think it's particularly productive to spend too much time discussing things one dislikes... but that's human nature.
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 27, 2017, 02:27:50 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 02:24:29 PM
Tennessee because his character took some time to develop. He was the last to get down to the planet and we learned more about him as a person before he arrived and was thrust into danger. That scene when he found out his wife died? Gut wrenching performance!
On the flip side, when Daniels husband died, I didn't care because we didn't know them. I don't think we were meant to care about the captain, but we were supposed to care that Daniels cared. And it didn't work for me.
I liked Tennessee and Daniels tbh but I felt Oram was the most fleshed out character and had the best arc. Next time you watch it you might appreciate him a little more.
I'll keep an open mind but I'm doubtful. Orem was fleshed out, sure, but I didn't like his character all that much. Personal taste, really. I think I'll enjoy the book more than the movie to be honest. I'm sure we'll get to know all the characters better in that medium.
I'm in the Oram camp too. Initially he was shown as a warm person when he was waking up Daniels, then we saw him disconnected from the rest of the crew, trying to establish authority, doing things by the book and determined. We were being set up to hate him, especially after when Daniels voiced her disapproval of his decision. Then he showed some idiosyncracies and he had good chemistry with Carmen Ejogo (Karine, his wife). Next he he was getting along nicely while on planet and he even had some clever lines. Then he was channeling a lot of emotions with Daniels. He was constantly falling apart and picking himself up again. His confrontation with David was brilliant. Maybe his demise not as good but the initial part when at the same time I was fascinated by bonding of David with the Neomorph and rooting for them, but on the other hand Oram did a wise thing and he demanded an explanation. The set-up that led him to his demise could have been altered slightly, because the whole act itself, I really felt it...it was the most touching death I can remember in any Alien film. I thought he's gonna be a shill, weakling or simply a dick...but he was neither, and yet he was something way more than any of those archetypes. And my wife liked him a lot too and she agreed with me. For me liking him was very unexpected yet I cannot stop thinking about his performance! He's like a Hudson of this film :D I mean a character that constantly makes this film still alive and a character to watch for, but in a totally different way.
Quote from: Salt The Fries on May 27, 2017, 05:53:10 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on May 27, 2017, 02:27:50 PM
Quote from: Engineer on May 27, 2017, 02:24:29 PM
Tennessee because his character took some time to develop. He was the last to get down to the planet and we learned more about him as a person before he arrived and was thrust into danger. That scene when he found out his wife died? Gut wrenching performance!
On the flip side, when Daniels husband died, I didn't care because we didn't know them. I don't think we were meant to care about the captain, but we were supposed to care that Daniels cared. And it didn't work for me.
I liked Tennessee and Daniels tbh but I felt Oram was the most fleshed out character and had the best arc. Next time you watch it you might appreciate him a little more.
I'll keep an open mind but I'm doubtful. Orem was fleshed out, sure, but I didn't like his character all that much. Personal taste, really. I think I'll enjoy the book more than the movie to be honest. I'm sure we'll get to know all the characters better in that medium.
I'm in the Oram camp too. Initially he was shown as a warm person when he was waking up Daniels, then we saw him disconnected from the rest of the crew, trying to establish authority, doing things by the book and determined. We were being set up to hate him, especially after when Daniels voiced her disapproval of his decision. Then he showed some idiosyncracies and he had good chemistry with Carmen Ejogo (Karine, his wife). Next he he was getting along nicely while on planet and he even had some clever lines. Then he was channeling a lot of emotions with Daniels. He was constantly falling apart and picking himself up again. His confrontation with David was brilliant. Maybe his demise not as good but the initial part when at the same time I was fascinated by bonding of David with the Neomorph and rooting for them, but on the other hand Oram did a wise thing and he demanded an explanation. The set-up that led him to his demise could have been altered slightly, because the whole act itself, I really felt it...it was the most touching death I can remember in any Alien film. I thought he's gonna be a shill, weakling or simply a dick...but he was neither, and yet he was something way more than any of those archetypes. And my wife liked him a lot too and she agreed with me. For me liking him was very unexpected yet I cannot stop thinking about his performance! He's like a Hudson of this film :D I mean a character that constantly makes this film still alive and a character to watch for, but in a totally different way.
Yep, what he said ^
The short of it: didn't give me ebola but also wasn't particularly great.
Movie adequately demonstrates the importance of wearing space helmets no matter what your computer tells you. That way alien dust particles can't make albino Silent Hill demons in your ass. This movie is also home to potentially the dumbest decision ever made in a franchise with lots of poor decision making.
I liked the first half much more than the second. The buildup to back burster was pretty nice.
I noted how David has simply decided, after much reflection, that becoming robot Lex Luthor was the correct career choice for his skillset. Fair enough. This franchise doesn't have enough evil robots, after all.
Spoiler
So in the end it was David who gave the space demons penises for heads,
mostly because he thought it'd be cool. It's what everyone did with Spore, so I can sympathize.
I found
Spoiler
the death of the Engineers fascinating. I actually felt Scott's psychic remnant. It said "So since none of you ingrates liked Prometheus enough, f**k the Engineers. You wanted to know why they hated humanity and shit? Well, f**k 'em, they all died. Here, have some more phallic headed monsters, you plebeians.
The black goo is fascinating, and rather ironically I think the Predalien can make sense to me now. The black goo does whatever it wants, because it can. Voodoo space magic has no limits, really. It can disintegrate people, or make them into excellent garden sculptures, or make demons, or spider demons, or whatever the f**k. Sounds about right for this franchise, really.
The Aliens in this movie seemed particularly pissed off to me. They've always had temper management issues, but I guess they just picked it up from their fathers, it's not their fault really. These guys are just so angry all the time, if they can't find someone to f**k up they'll just beat whatever's closest, living or not. I am a licensed psychologist - I recommend a deep psychoanalysis to find out what needs they've been missing. Maybe if they had a proper motherhood figure, like Kerrigan, or a big T-Rex like creature that can give them love and affection they'd mellow out.
It was also very nice for Scott to weigh in on the "did the Alien survive getting blasted by space thrusters" argument. Over the years I've seen many who felt that the only reason the Alien didn't burn to a crisp in the first movie was because Scott didn't have the budget or they just didn't have the technosorcery to make that happen on-screen. f**k all of you. Said Ridley Scott.
To be honest I don't feel like I know more about the Alien at all and don't even understand why they are in the movie (besides putting butts in seats). In the end,
Spoiler
they are made from a space virus, a weapon designed by the space jockeys, which is then made even more EVIL by an EVIL mad scientist robot. The only part I didn't already suspect was the robot's hand in it.This is the same shit we've been talking about for years. They were made as weapons for unknown reasons by very perturbed alien jerks. Well, thanks for confirming it, I guess.
They could have just kept albino space monkeys throughout the whole thing and not much would have changed. The Proto-Alien even acts the same way, he just looks meaner. Oh well.
This is my first post since a very long time but I just wanted to share my frustration about Covenant with some true fans.
Lets start - I never bothered following whats going on with Covenant. I knew it was coming but I decided just to wait and see the movie. The only thing I watched was some trailer, just one trailer and I was like "Holy shit that's gonna be a massacre - definitely going to the cinema for this!". Usually I don't go to see the movies at launch at the cinema, I just wait for the DVD.
So, a few days ago I went to see the movie with wifey. I am pointing this out because I made her an Alien fan. She never watched the movies before she met me so I want to share her opinion too as just a normal viewer who liked Alien and Aliens and A:R to some degree but she is not a die hard fan.
The movie started somehow good. The scene with David. But then it became SO SLOW! What was it? An hour before anything happened? Something like that. And even during this "blank" hour nothing character wise happened. We couldn't "touch" the characters, they were just some people with their problems (dying husband, new promotion, etc). The characters were bland, imo. It was not like in Alien or Aliens where the first time you watch the movie the moment you see the characters you feel how strong they are. This is missing in Covenant.
During this hour they were showing some spaceship tech and how it functions. But why? It never had any role with the events in the movie later on. I mean in Aliens for example they show the ship just for a few moments so the viewers can realize how big it is and then they show how the marines prep for the mission - with the guns, used later in the movie, the power loader, the apc. So the viewer can say hey they were showcasing those in the beginning! In Covenant all this showcase is for nothing - its just a filler. I felt ripped off after the movie ended because of that.
Ok, then the planet landing happened. I liked the scene with the human crops. It was so scary and nice for me :D Then the spores scene happened and both me and my girl thought This is bullshit but it is what it is, if the rest is good this wont break the system right? Sadly the rest wasn't good. The "infection" process began and we were in anticipation of the good stuff. We loved how the new alien developed and bursted out of the guy, it was nice even if it was too fast for something that came out of a spore. The scene in the dropship was great imo. I liked the bitch acting of the Tennese's wife, how both girls slipped, the explosion after that. After that the ambush with the multiple aliens it was nice also. What I LOVED about the movie was the gun sounds, they sound so loud and deep. And this is where the movie ended for me, honestly.
The rest was shit to say the least. It felt like the whole movie is about the android. The (kinda?) classic xeno part was somehow decent but the CGI ruined it for me. In the end of the movie they tried to make it a horror since they failed at the action part in the woods/field. Well, they failed at both. The movie is not an action film nor a horror film.
After the movie I asked my girl if she can remember any of the characters, he barely remembered Tennese. And this is what I remember too - Tennese and his wife, thats about it. The rest are random people who die like all the nameless soldiers in We were soldiers, Band of Brothers, and so on. She, as casual viewer didn't liked the movie at all. She said its boring for the most part, the action was too little and the horror was non existent. Which is true.
The main protagonist was boring and blank too. The moment I saw Daniels or whatever, I knew she would be Ripley 2.0 as sole survivor doing all the dirty work. How original... For years the movies have taken this "canon" the girl to be the sole survivor, they could have change it a little this time. Its so obvious now.
Aaand of course the alien play was bad - too many CGI, the new (proto?) aliens development is too fast, way too human like (I didn't liked that personally). I'll rather have a movie where both alien species fight each other and the humans are caught in between, something like the first AvP.
The movie is 3/10 at best for me, solely for the sounds.
I know one thing for sure though - I am not going to cinema ever again. Such a waste of money.
I saw the movie yesterday, and didn't really like it.
Ironically, the best parts were the androids and the continuation of the themes from Prometheus, while the third act with the aliens was much weaker, it went too quickly with no suspense whatsoever, Ridley Scott clearly wasn't that interested in the Xenos, who weren't even that threatening by the way, the Neomorphs and David himself worked much better as antagonists.
My main issue with the movie, however, is that it is destroying the mystery of the aliens by making them a product of a human-made android. They are no longer even "alien", just some genetically engineered monsters not unlike the dinosaurs of Jurassic Park. The accelerated lifecycle I will not even comment on...
I liked the characters, for the most part at least. Daniels was okay, Oram was the most developed (surprisingly), Tennessee was the most sympathetic, while the two androids were superb. I'm very disappointed that Dr. Shaw was killed off-screen, similary to Newt and Hicks. Why? Why was she replaced with Daniels who had no meaningful development?
The music was great though.
(So what should they have done? IMO: keep Shaw, make her the enemy of David on the planet after he kills the Engineers. The Xenos should be kept as a project of the Engineers (perhaps they are released after David wipes out the Engineer City?). David should be the father of the lesser Neomorphs. The part with the aliens should be longer and much more suspensful.)
4/10.
My ranking of the Alien movies:
1. Aliens
2. Alien
3. Alien3
4. Prometheus
5. Covenant
6. Aliens vs Predator
7. Alien: Resurrection
8: Aliens vs Predator: Requiem
Leaving aside nitpicks, because I don't care I just want to be entertained. I loved it. This is right up there with Alien and Aliens, but in many ways it is a much better movie than those two. It's far more ambitious.
This Alien fan is very, very happy.
I give it 10/10. Please Creator, let there be a sequel.
Quote from: Scorpio on May 30, 2017, 08:00:39 AM
Leaving aside nitpicks, because I don't care I just want to be entertained. I loved it. This is right up there with Alien and Aliens, but in many ways it is a much better movie than those two. It's far more ambitious.
This Alien fan is very, very happy.
I give it 10/10. Please Creator, let there be a sequel.
People hate this movie because it actually takes away the mystery that surrounded the Xenomorph. The same happened with The Force Awakens. Where people were, somehow, unable to let go of what they interpreted as "canon". Unable to expand their own vision and allow themselves to be suprised.
Instead of being it's own species and (presumably) having it's own planet .. Covenant shows that these things are made by a synthetic with a God-complex.
That being said, I accepted the fact that the Xenomorph is engineered. A perfect organism that takes the best attributes of it's host. Mind you, the Xenomorph we see in Covenant is still not the same as we saw in Alien. So David still has alot of work to do. The only thing I really hope is that Ridley Scott acknowledges the fact that the Alien Queen is part of the "lore". That the Xenomorphs evolved and are able to reproduce themselves.
Sure, the movie has some serious flaws (why are the characters so dumb) ... but it still looks great. I'll stick with my 7/10 though ... at the same time, I'm crossing my fingers that an Extended Cut gets released someday.
Spoiler
Since David got so close to being shot in the film, perhaps there is a sense of "I need to have my creation continue if something happens to me". He has thousands of experimental hosts after all, so he can figure out how to produce the egg creator.That is, if Sir Ridley lets him. :laugh:
Quote from: SyntaX on May 30, 2017, 12:16:09 PM
People hate this movie because it actually takes away the mystery that surrounded the Xenomorph.
Strange really, I always thought the very word xenomorph started the rot there.
Quote from: SyntaX on May 30, 2017, 12:16:09 PM
People hate this movie because it actually takes away the mystery that surrounded the Xenomorph.
I understand that, but this is a new universe we are dealing with and a new series of films (with only links to the old one). If you want the mystery, then just watch the old films. I, for one, want something new and interesting and I think they achieved that. They expanded on a few of the themes already present in the Alien saga as well. It works within the context the film. If people keep comparing it to Alien and Aliens they will always be disappointed.
Quote from: Scorpio on May 30, 2017, 12:47:49 PM
Quote from: SyntaX on May 30, 2017, 12:16:09 PM
People hate this movie because it actually takes away the mystery that surrounded the Xenomorph.
I understand that, but this is a new universe we are dealing with and a new series of films (with only links to the old one). If you want the mystery, then just watch the old films. I, for one, want something new and interesting and I think they achieved that. They expanded on a few of the themes already present in the Alien saga as well. It works within the context the film. If people keep comparing it to Alien and Aliens they will always be disappointed.
As I stated, the same happened with The Force Awakens. We're people, who call themselves fans, hated the idea of a female being the lead and TFA being a sequel to ROTJ. Sure, TFA took the safe route but it was a great setup for a new trilogy.
Alien Covenant expands the Alien lore. If people want to hold on to the fact that Alien/Aliens can not be touched upon ... they are wrong. Again, Alien Covenant is a good movie but has some serious flaws. Covenant is much more of an Alien movie than Prometheus was. The only thing that connected Prometheus to the Alien-universe were the Engineers and the Daecon at the very end. Seeing something fresh, like the Neomorph was great. Seeing the first Alien (despite it looking different) felt great. The only problem I had with the movie is the stupid decisions the crew make.
"Yo! We are on an unknown planet, but let's just split up!"
Quote from: Scorpio on May 30, 2017, 12:47:49 PMI, for one, want something new and interesting and I think they achieved that.
I'm not sure what
Covenant did that was terribly new or interesting. Most of it came across of a retread of things the series has done before.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 30, 2017, 01:01:03 PM
Quote from: Scorpio on May 30, 2017, 12:47:49 PMI, for one, want something new and interesting and I think they achieved that.
I'm not sure what Covenant did that was terribly new or interesting. Most of it came across of a retread of things the series has done before.
You sure?
I'm pretty sure we haven't had a synthetic create life? :P
Nor did we have a Neomorph (Alien) burst out of someone's throat or back.
There's plenty of new stuff in Covenant.
And there is more new stuff coming ... I hope.
Quote from: SyntaX on May 30, 2017, 01:06:07 PMYou sure?
I'm pretty sure we haven't had a synthetic create life? :P
Nor did we have a Neomorph (Alien) burst out of someone's throat or back.
Having an alien emerge from a slightly different spot is hardly anything new and exciting, it's just the the same thing with the vaguest of twists.
And the evil robot thing is hardly new to the franchise, even if he's done something new. We had Engineers creating life in the last film, now suddenly because it's a robot doing it instead it represents a new epoch?
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 30, 2017, 01:22:15 PM
Quote from: SyntaX on May 30, 2017, 01:06:07 PMYou sure?
I'm pretty sure we haven't had a synthetic create life? :P
Nor did we have a Neomorph (Alien) burst out of someone's throat or back.
Having an alien emerge from a slightly different spot is hardly anything new and exciting, it's just the the same thing with the vaguest of twists.
And the evil robot thing is hardly new to the franchise, even if he's done something new. We had Engineers creating life in the last film, now suddenly because it's a robot doing it instead it represents a new epoch?
I really don't get these type of comments.
What would you have wanted to see?
A rehash or combination of Alien and Aliens? The same stuff we've been getting for the past 4 movies?
Or would you rather have something that expands the Alien franchise?
To me, your comment comes across as someone who has a hard time accepting the fact the movie turned out to be different and not in line with what you had envisioned.
This didn't expand anything. It brought a franchise that was branching out into new horizons back to narrow fan service and directly prequelizing the old movies while killing all the mystery - and nobody seems to have gone to see it.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 30, 2017, 01:39:31 PM
This didn't expand anything. It brought a franchise that was branching out into new horizons back to narrow fan service and directly prequelizing the old movies while killing all the mystery - and nobody seems to have gone to see it.
Please enlighten me how Prometheus expanded the lore?
We got more information on the Engineer. We saw that the Space-Jockey was reduced to a mere suit.
We got the early stages of Facehuggers (Trilobite) and early stages of incubation (due to the black goo).
Covenant does pretty much the same by introducting the Neomorph and showing the Xenomorph was a creation instead of having it's own planet (as many believed they would have).
It introduced a whole new race with limitless technology, lore and new monsters. It created the mystery of who they are, what they wanted, where they were. The movie ends with two new characters rocketing off to explore. You could've gone anywhere. It gave the franchise a cosmic macro-structure, and left the Alien movies relatively untouched, safe in their bubble as just a part of a larger tapestry.
Instead the alien is back, far less mysterious and ancient than ever, and everything else has been killed off. Except, of course, Michael Fassbender.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 30, 2017, 01:39:31 PM
This didn't expand anything. It brought a franchise that was branching out into new horizons back to narrow fan service and directly prequelizing the old movies while killing all the mystery - and nobody seems to have gone to see it.
^^ this
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 30, 2017, 01:52:09 PM
It introduced a whole new race with limitless technology, lore and new monsters. It created the mystery of who they are, what they wanted, where they were. The movie ends with two new characters rocketing off to explore. You could've gone anywhere. It gave the franchise a cosmic macro-structure, and left the Alien movies relatively untouched, safe in their bubble as just a part of a larger tapestry.
Instead the alien is back, far less mysterious and ancient than ever, and everything else has been killed off. Except, of course, Michael Fassbender.
You describe the part I hated the most in Prometheus :laugh:
You have David, a synthetic who set it all in motion. Impregnated Shaw as part of an experiment, murdered her boyfriend etc. David even made some vague comments about what happened and I'm goddamn sure Shaw knew exactly what was going on. But hey, let's just take his head and body and set course to the Engineer Homeworld together. Because David most certainly wouldn't try anything like that again ::)
Despite that, Prometheus stated that they weren't going home ... they were going to find anwsers and head of to "Paradise" to find the other Engineers. Which, iirc, happened in Alien Covenant. Covenant simply followed the events that were setup in Prometheus.
Yes, David in the last movie was an interesting, morally gray character at best. You never knew what he'd do. David in this movie is a deranged mad scientist/killer robot who wants to f**k anything that moves and destroy humanity. He began by killing off anything interesting from the last movie other than himself. Why? Ask the cut material from the film.
Also, AC did not follow on from that ending. It simply negated it. It said everything had already happened, except that 'everything' was 'David getting rid of it all because we'd rather just bring back the alien'.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 30, 2017, 02:08:05 PM
Yes, David in the last movie was an interesting, morally gray character at best. You never knew what he'd do. David in this movie is a deranged mad scientist/killer robot who wants to f**k anything that moves and destroy humanity. He began by killing off anything interesting from the last movie other than himself. Why? Ask the cut material from the film.
Also, AC did not follow on from that ending. It simply negated it. It said everything had already happened, except that 'everything' was 'David getting rid of it all because we'd rather just bring back the alien'.
True. I can not change your view on AC and I'm not really trying to ;)
Prometheus, for me, showed that David was up there on Ash-levels of crazyness. Showing a synthetic capable of destroying the very crew he was assigned to protect showed how far he was willing to go in order to achieve his goals. After the events in Prometheus, it was clear what David's intentions was. He created the chaos in Prometheus. Hell, he's even responsible for the creation of the Trilobite and Daecon. All those things happened because of him. So I'm not sure if the "gray character" suits him that well :laugh:
AC states that the David-8 models were "scary" because they acted way too life-like. It was David's curiousity and hatred for his creators that made him turn against them.
And yes, I do agree that the time-jump from Prometheus to Covenant should've been a bit shorter. I would've loved to see more between David and Shaw and his true motivations. But that would give away the entire Covenant plot.
Quote from: SyntaX on May 30, 2017, 01:37:25 PMI really don't get these type of comments.
What would you have wanted to see?
A rehash or combination of Alien and Aliens? The same stuff we've been getting for the past 4 movies?
Or would you rather have something that expands the Alien franchise?
To me, your comment comes across as someone who has a hard time accepting the fact the movie turned out to be different and not in line with what you had envisioned.
Wut?
I would've liked
Covenant to explore some new ideas. I'm saying it didn't really do that.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 30, 2017, 02:40:07 PM
Quote from: SyntaX on May 30, 2017, 01:37:25 PMI really don't get these type of comments.
What would you have wanted to see?
A rehash or combination of Alien and Aliens? The same stuff we've been getting for the past 4 movies?
Or would you rather have something that expands the Alien franchise?
To me, your comment comes across as someone who has a hard time accepting the fact the movie turned out to be different and not in line with what you had envisioned.
Wut?
I would've liked Covenant to explore some new ideas. I'm saying it didn't really do that.
Ah. Sorry 'bout that! Misread it then ;)
I don't get what is so wrong with the David-creating-Aliens idea in light that this is a sequel to Prommmeeeetjes
I mean
that film burned whatever lore and mysticism the Aliens and Space Jockeys had, so how is David creating the Aliens any more offensive or detrimental than that? If people were fine with the Engineers, how is this any worse? The field was already charred before it
Because now the xenomorphs are the result of some dickhead's daddy issues.
Quote from: Omegamorph on May 30, 2017, 03:07:46 PM
I don't get what is so wrong with the David-creating-Aliens idea in light that this is a sequel to Prommmeeeetjes
I mean
that film burned whatever lore and mysticism the Aliens and Space Jockeys had, so how is David creating the Aliens any more offensive or detrimental than that? If people were fine with the Engineers, how is this any worse? The field was already charred before it
Problem is the motivation behind it.
Cliché robot wanting to destroy humanity is not less cliché in 2017 as it would have still be cliché in 1979.
Retroactively, it just feels uninspired and a bad step into the direction to the "unknown" which is kind of Ridley's footprint in Sci Fi.
Then there are deeper problem, like David himself is both the Protagonist/Antagonist of this licence now and yet he's never fully explored.
Others characters just happen to be 1D flat meat bag.
It's missing an opportunity to create a character that is beyond good and evil and that could be the central pillar of a new licence by keeping him in the background having the camera angled towards the humans and it's also missing an opportunity to bring a new horror to the Sci Fi genre by ripping of decades of cliché.
There were potential though, it could have really been great, but the problems accumulate rapidly since prometheus.
I don't even know how you could finish a film in the first place by a "to be continued", it should have raised the alarm in the first place that prometheus was already very problematic in its storytelling and the beginning of the film is very unclear and foggy. It's hard to get really engage with it.
Quote from: SyntaX on May 30, 2017, 01:37:25 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on May 30, 2017, 01:22:15 PM
Quote from: SyntaX on May 30, 2017, 01:06:07 PMYou sure?
I'm pretty sure we haven't had a synthetic create life? :P
Nor did we have a Neomorph (Alien) burst out of someone's throat or back.
Having an alien emerge from a slightly different spot is hardly anything new and exciting, it's just the the same thing with the vaguest of twists.
And the evil robot thing is hardly new to the franchise, even if he's done something new. We had Engineers creating life in the last film, now suddenly because it's a robot doing it instead it represents a new epoch?
I really don't get these type of comments.
What would you have wanted to see?
A rehash or combination of Alien and Aliens? The same stuff we've been getting for the past 4 movies?
Or would you rather have something that expands the Alien franchise?
To me, your comment comes across as someone who has a hard time accepting the fact the movie turned out to be different and not in line with what you had envisioned.
And this is what gives him a cognitive dissonance.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on May 30, 2017, 01:39:31 PM
This didn't expand anything. It brought a franchise that was branching out into new horizons back to narrow fan service and directly prequelizing the old movies while killing all the mystery - and nobody seems to have gone to see it.
You're mistaken. I've majored in literature. My MA was about synthesis of arts in literature. I've found a lot of interesting artistic devices in Covenant that were possible for me to notice after achieving this kind of knowledge.
Yeah, that's nice but your degrees aren't really relevant to this discussion. I'm a working writer too, dude; I took my fair share of literature courses in college and I'm quite familiar with any number of 'artistic devices'. Doesn't change the fact that I think the movie's crap, sorry. No amount of diploma displays will change that. An auteur can drop as many references to composers and art history as he likes to give a product a thin patina of culture but when the story is a cliched rehash of old ideas the redundancies shine through.
No.
Just f**king no.
Right from the begining. No, I have no issue with david creating the Alien. Actually, the story of Covenant is extremely interesting - considering the plot twist in future movies we already know - that Covenant members will become the The Derelict Cargo Bay Eggs.
The idea and passion behind portraying david is outstanding - You can clearly see sir Ridley is grasping at things... what it makes You to be a human, what makes You human, what makes You what You really are. What it is to live your life... and die like human creator or... try to create. It's a beautiful idea. The passion of creation.
But lets face it.. it's f**king ruined. There are some beautiful ideas there... but they're ruined. By lack of additional influence. 79' Alien was just... f**king marvelous. It took the same, repeated ad nauseam ideas and made it different. By then, as a small kid, I've seen lots of horror movies. Alien was different. Not because of just direction - but because of f**king perfect combination of weirdness from standard, yet unusal script by O'Bannon Starbeast, perfect visuals of Ridely Scott, outstanding design by HR Giger, and all the work of whole crew making the fukcing movie. Crew infected by that movie. By combining excellent minds, oh irony, the perfect organism was made.
Space Jockey and his ship was something nothing human mind can comprehend. Ship build of bones and even maybe flesh at some time? Pilot being part of the ship. The f**king out of this world mysteries hidden beneath the ship. It was something outlandish. Something mind blowing. Something... alien.
That's what makes perfect organism.
The new entries are fine. Prometheus, even though shitting as hell on all Gigers work, had excellent, brilliant even, design choices - ironically based on Gigers designs. They were so much captivating, that even dumb as shit script couldn't ruin the f**king amazing experience - of discovering your god's lair and realizing it's just one of many military installations with sole purpose to erase everything. And not by using bullets. By using f**king nightmares.
Alien for me is that's.. alien. Something you can't understand. Something, where you can't find similarities to your earthilng life. You may find some similiraties... but then it's making your familiar memories turning inside out. It was birliantly amplified by Aliens - yeah, it was a sequel turning horror into action movie, but f**k, Queen design, all Her lair... sure it's bugs for grunts, but it's so f**king Giger like you just can't complain. And I won't even start on Alien 3, because it... well, even when butchered by the studio, tripliefied the feelling of being unease. And it actually asks f**king questions without any exposition on the screen whatsover. So there's that.
And here's covenant. Movie, that, I shit You not, had me at the end of the seat for first 30 mins. Yeah, I know those scenes were f**king trope, but as a whole combined experience were great.
And there it goes. Landing, stupid expolring (I love f**king short stories from our eastern border - going like that without helmets because things - almost like expoling f**king Zone for the first time - and those were amaizng stories from 70ties so I lover it and f**k off), and tension is excellent! And neomorphs... - holy shit, david-neomorph one was f**king amazing.
But all the time after david takes refugees to the temple - sledgehammer to the face. Because You know what? If there ever was a space race engineering life on most habital planets they can find - they will look like f**king rome citizens.
...
Or Venece. Or very old Constantinopol. No.
You think they were advanced biomechanical beings from outer space? NO. It's just f**king vatican, and they all live in stone like homes, and david's laboratory is in a f**king cave with papiruses on the wooden shelves.
You thought engineers biomechanical base (let's be honest, it's not their homeworld) will be out of this world? Like.. alien? No, it's just the same shit from history channel. Do you feel safe now?
That batshit insane creatures from outerspace from '79? Nah, they are just a copy of Rome? And greece, combined. All the human culture combined!
Do you feel safe now while watching the movie? Do You feel safe and at home? Maybe excellent shots in the middle of the movie copying 1920-1940 asthetics make feel You better, hmm? You know, like Nosferatu, or maybe Cabinet of dr. Caligari? Things You know, things You recognize? You know, everything is human like! Do You feel safe now?
just... f**k. NO.
NO. f**kING NO. The last thing thing I wanted to see in Alien prequel was that it's not alien. It's just the same f**king sight in the same f**king city - city you go to sightseeing in Your own f**king country - or other one, when You go to a trip. Yeah. Excellent.That's what everyone wants. f**king copy of Rome.
Everything is f**king human. There's nothing left of Alien.
f**k THIS MOVIE.
Alien is dead, close the forums.
David is alive, play the flute ;)
I'm only half-joking! ;D
I think it's evident that for a lot of people here the franchise is irreparably damaged. To them I say: why not move on?
It's not as if there's going to be a movie anytime soon that you're going to find satisfying. Outside of comics and tie-in novels, there's no new content on the horizon to be excited about. Even the much-loved Alien Isolation isn't getting a sequel. Face it: this is effectively a dead franchise. For the sake of your mental health and general happiness, it would probably be best to find another hobby, fandom or what have you. There is only death here now.
Quote from: acidreign on May 30, 2017, 08:45:21 PM
I'm only half-joking! ;D
I think it's evident that for a lot of people here the franchise is irreparably damaged. To them I say: why not move on?
It's not as if there're going to be a movie anytime soon that you're going to find satisfying. Outside of comics and tie-in novels, there's no new content on the horizon for to be excited about. Even the much-loved Alien Isolation isn't getting a sequel. Face it: this is effectively a dead franchise. For the sake of your mental health and general happiness, it would probably be best to find another hobby, fandom or what have you. There is only death here now.
It's been seriously (if not irreparably) damaged since 1992. Covenant, and to a lesser extent Prometheus, are decent enough films, but nothing will come close to those first two films. Most film series' go downhill after 2 or 3 instalments tbh: e.g Alien (2), Terminator (2), Die Hard (3), Indiana Jones (3)...
Quote from: acidreign on May 30, 2017, 08:17:35 PM
Alien is dead, close the forums.
You mean turn it into a Predator-only forum. 8)
I just saw it, it was good, i liked it, BUT:
-They should have been continued the story from Prometheus. 5, 10 minutes at most of footage showing what happened between the previous movie and this one, they gloss over a lot of important stuff, and they show nothing of Shaw
-The ending, is too seen already, between some other stuff that we also saw in every Alien movie, it needed a twist, something more
It left me a bit cold, and the pacing is a little rushed, i get what Scott was tyring to do, but he also should not made a movie as if "regretting" from Prometheus, even though there was a lot of complaints, is a good movie anyway
Quote from: DaddyYautja on May 30, 2017, 11:51:53 PM
Quote from: acidreign on May 30, 2017, 08:17:35 PM
Alien is dead, close the forums.
You mean turn it into a Predator-only forum. 8)
Until the next movie is released that is
I can swallow the story of Prometheus and i can even accept(reluctantly) the fact that David created the "Alien".
What really bothers me is Ridley's design choices.He is consciously choosing to abandon the Giger element.The Juggernaut doesn´t looks to be organic anymore,now look like it was made of cheap plastic.The city of the engineers is just ancient Rome.He is making the technologies as modern as possible,ignoring totally what was done in the original(and don´t come to me with the banal excuse that the Nostromo was an old cargo ship and blá,blá,bla...).
The Prometheus and Covenant ships seem to have come out from Halo or Call of Duty Infinite Warfare rather than
A L I E N.Well...i liked a bit of the Covenant garage,they reproduced relatively well that messy mix of mechanisms and equipment painted gold as they did on the Nostromo.
Honestly...his art guys get millions to create boring and unimaginative concepts.I know...it´s hard to top guys like Ron Cobb and Giger but it seems they aren´t even trying.My dream was to see again that opressive and gritty darkness that Outland(1981) reproduced so well.
I understand Scott's point of view, he said many times he doesn´t want to do what he did before,but i think it´s a shot on the foot.If you pay close attention to the making of Prometheus,you´ll realize that even his crew don´t agree with some of his decisions.The guy is full George Lucas now.In the past,many believed he was the right choice to make a Alien prequel...well,i think these people were wrong.
I believe the guys who made Isolation understand A L I E N more than Ridley himself.
Quote from: Dirty Harry on May 31, 2017, 01:36:11 PM
The Juggernaut doesn´t looks to be organic anymore,now look like it was made of cheap plastic.
Can I ask why you think this? I don't think anything had appreciably changed in its design. I still find it one of the single best designs in all of film... a totally alien and imposing craft.
Quote from: Omegamorph on May 31, 2017, 09:35:44 AM
Quote from: DaddyYautja on May 30, 2017, 11:51:53 PM
Quote from: acidreign on May 30, 2017, 08:17:35 PM
Alien is dead, close the forums.
You mean turn it into a Predator-only forum. 8)
Until the next movie is released that is
It should really become a true AVP board where at the end of each month you tabulate which side had the best showing in movies, comics, merchandise, etc, and the winner gets featured.
cant believe it, i am finally gonna watch alien covenant. .they decided to show it at my cinema. .sitting thru the trailers now. ..so excited i wanne pee myself. .
Quote from: juxtapose on Jun 01, 2017, 09:28:53 AM
cant believe it, i am finally gonna watch alien covenant. .they decided to show it at my cinema. .sitting thru the trailers now. ..so excited i wanne pee myself. .
Enjoy, I hope you like it....
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jun 01, 2017, 09:31:26 AM
Quote from: juxtapose on Jun 01, 2017, 09:28:53 AM
cant believe it, i am finally gonna watch alien covenant. .they decided to show it at my cinema. .sitting thru the trailers now. ..so excited i wanne pee myself. .
Enjoy, I hope you like it....
What? Peeing himself? :laugh:
:laugh:Yep
ok so i manage to not pee myself and i could not believe when i strolled past my local cinema and saw the poster up. .after the manager told me a couple of weeks back that they not getting it. .anyway so i immediately bought a ticket and had just enought time to have a quick smoke before the show started. .i will post a proper review a bit later. .but in a nutshell. .i f**king loved it!. .a 9/10 for me!. .kind say their was a single thing that annoyed me. . Walked out feeling thoroughly satisfied!
Quote from: juxtapose on Jun 01, 2017, 01:27:16 PM
ok so i manage to not pee myself and i could not believe when i strolled past my local cinema and saw the poster up. .after the manager told me a couple of weeks back that they not getting it. .anyway so i immediately bought a ticket and had just enought time to have a quick smoke before the show started. .i will post a proper review a bit later. .but in a nutshell. .i f**king loved it!. .a 9/10 for me!. .kind say their was a single thing that annoyed me. . Walked out feeling thoroughly satisfied!
I'm really pleased you enjoyed it especially as you have had to wait so long. And you didn't soil yourself which is always a bonus.
it.s funny cause i was worried i might get a full bladder sometime during the show and i would end up missing something. .fortunately for me it never happened. . And their was a few scenes that might have caused a full bladder to erupt come to think of it. .lol
Well 67 people didnt like the film or thought it could have been better out of 321 votes so far. And yet to read the threads here you would think it was the most hated dumpster fire of a film ever made. It continues to amaze just how much noise is made by people with negative opinions compared to people with positive ones.
it was exactly the same with prometheus. .really loved that movie as well. .yet the haters are always way more vocal. .not me tho i will be very loud and vocal about my complete and annoying fanfilled flamboyent, fundamentally fanboyish adoration for covenant. .lol
I think this is a good movie, but far from perfect. The story could be better, the alien design was great, but the behaviours of the crew is not to good in my opinion especially at the bloodburster scene.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 01, 2017, 03:17:31 PM
Well 67 people didnt like the film or thought it could have been better out of 321 votes so far. And yet to read the threads here you would think it was the most hated dumpster fire of a film ever made. It continues to amaze just how much noise is made by people with negative opinions compared to people with positive ones.
I think what you see are partly the group you pointed out and people who didn't outright dislike the film but were really frustrated by aspects of it.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 01, 2017, 03:17:31 PM
Well 67 people didnt like the film or thought it could have been better out of 321 votes so far. And yet to read the threads here you would think it was the most hated dumpster fire of a film ever made. It continues to amaze just how much noise is made by people with negative opinions compared to people with positive ones.
It's called being in denial.
Like most of you I imagine, I am a lifelong Alien fan. The first two movies tie for my affections, I grew to love Alien3 and I enjoy Resurrection and the AVP movies as comic book-style spinoffs. I wanted to love Prometheus but the obvious stripping out of classic 'xeno' elements really annoyed me, the creatures and lifecycle presented made no sense (they make slightly more sense now, I feel), and I felt it was a flawed film even disregarding my desire for it to be a straight prequel.
Well, I got what I wanted with Covenant. It's by no means perfect, but I found it fascinating, beautiful, genuinely tense at times, and I actually love what they've done with the origin - and I was convinced that I would hate it having spoiled myself to death on these forums! Yes, when I watch Alien I will sometimes be pretending that these films don't exist and the creature/derelict are the ancient mysteries that we all probably wanted them to remain. Such is the beauty of 'head canon' - take each film on its own merits and allow it to connect with whatever you like - who cares what anyone else thinks is 'canon', including the creators! People already pretend that A:3 and Resurrection don't exist, so if you don't like what Scott and co have done, just ignore it. For me, it's one fascinating possibility.
The creature design (in fact, production design full stop, aside from the terribly lazy firearms) was fantastic; the Xeno wasn't perfect, but on a par with what we see of the Alien3 creature (given that a lot of the biomechanical detail on that excellent design is lost on film) and *so* much better than ADI's later efforts (sorry ADI, but I have grown to hate your slimy, fleshy space-cockroaches). I even loved the revised chestburster which, again, I thought I would hate. I do hope that we get to see 'Big Chap' in full Giger/Locusta glory before these movies are done. It was still a treat to see the various 'xenos' running around and doing what they do. So much better than the abominations in Prometheus.
David was easily the best thing about Prometheus, so I have no issue with this and hopefully the next (and hopefully final) prequel instalment focusing upon him and his antics. I thought the whole thing was a great compromise between Prometheus and its existential musing, the tense chills of Alien and Alien3, the action of Aliens and the gore of Resurrection. I was even fine with the ending due to the somewhat fresh way that an old Alien trope was handled.
I really hope we get to see this story completed and backed into Alien. For me, this has somehow redeemed Prometheus. I can rewatch that and enjoy it knowing that it IS heading toward Alien and isn't just about us being created by giant humanoid aliens (a concept that I hate, by the way, so was happy to see it minimised here).
Anyway, I enjoyed the movie so much that I wanted to emerge from mostly lurking (mostly ;) ) to voice my opinion. But then you know what opinions are like...
thanks for your review biggles. .i had a very similar experience!
Quote from: Biggles on Jun 01, 2017, 05:53:41 PMFor me, this has somehow redeemed Prometheus.
See, I don't understand that viewpoint. I shouldn't have to watch
another movie for
Prometheus to be an enjoyable film. It should work on it's own. It doesn't, in my view, hence why I don't like it.
I mean you don't have to watch
Aliens to thoroughly enjoy
Alien.
I'll give you the TL;DR version first:
Saw it the first time and I was PISSED leaving the theater. I've never been angrier at a movie in my life.
Saw it a second time, a week later, and I LOVED the film.
I really liked the music, set designs (holy shit, some of the shots in this movie are f**king amazing), the philosophic themes, the atmosphere (very Gothic and foreboding), the characters (Oram, Ferris, Tennessee, and of course Walter/David). I don't feel a need to quantify how long I've been a fan of the series, or wave the proverbial fan flags, but I will say that I have enjoyed the direction that Scott has taken these films in. I think an element of the disappointment initially for me was that I was wanting there to be more Engineers (the best addition to the Alien franchise since the original Alien), more explanation for the Engineers civilization, and a more Lovecraftian origin story for the Alien. Out of my group of 4 that went to see Covenant the first time, my shitty reaction almost ruined the night for others. I had to let myself cool off and re-assess, watching a film a second time, to really appreciate what was going on.
My mindset the first time was: "This is what I want it to be after almost 5 years of waiting for a follow-up to Prometheus". The second time around, my attitude was: "Let's see what this film is trying to show me". I really, really enjoyed it and I cannot wait to see it again.
Quote from: lv_226 on Jun 01, 2017, 08:44:00 PM
I'll give you the TL;DR version first:
Saw it the first time and I was PISSED leaving the theater. I've never been angrier at a movie in my life.
Saw it a second time, a week later, and I LOVED the film.
I really liked the music, set designs (holy shit, some of the shots in this movie are f**king amazing), the philosophic themes, the atmosphere (very Gothic and foreboding), the characters (Oram, Ferris, Tennessee, and of course Walter/David). I don't feel a need to quantify how long I've been a fan of the series, or wave the proverbial fan flags, but I will say that I have enjoyed the direction that Scott has taken these films in. I think an element of the disappointment initially for me was that I was wanting there to be more Engineers (the best addition to the Alien franchise since the original Alien), more explanation for the Engineers civilization, and a more Lovecraftian origin story for the Alien. Out of my group of 4 that went to see Covenant the first time, my shitty reaction almost ruined the night for others. I had to let myself cool off and re-assess, watching a film a second time, to really appreciate what was going on.
My mindset the first time was: "This is what I want it to be after almost 5 years of waiting for a follow-up to Prometheus". The second time around, my attitude was: "Let's see what this film is trying to show me". I really, really enjoyed it and I cannot wait to see it again.
Wow, that's quite a turn around and good to hear
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jun 01, 2017, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: lv_226 on Jun 01, 2017, 08:44:00 PM
I'll give you the TL;DR version first:
Saw it the first time and I was PISSED leaving the theater. I've never been angrier at a movie in my life.
Saw it a second time, a week later, and I LOVED the film.
I really liked the music, set designs (holy shit, some of the shots in this movie are f**king amazing), the philosophic themes, the atmosphere (very Gothic and foreboding), the characters (Oram, Ferris, Tennessee, and of course Walter/David). I don't feel a need to quantify how long I've been a fan of the series, or wave the proverbial fan flags, but I will say that I have enjoyed the direction that Scott has taken these films in. I think an element of the disappointment initially for me was that I was wanting there to be more Engineers (the best addition to the Alien franchise since the original Alien), more explanation for the Engineers civilization, and a more Lovecraftian origin story for the Alien. Out of my group of 4 that went to see Covenant the first time, my shitty reaction almost ruined the night for others. I had to let myself cool off and re-assess, watching a film a second time, to really appreciate what was going on.
My mindset the first time was: "This is what I want it to be after almost 5 years of waiting for a follow-up to Prometheus". The second time around, my attitude was: "Let's see what this film is trying to show me". I really, really enjoyed it and I cannot wait to see it again.
Wow, that's quite a turn around and good to hear
Thanks. I hate to oversimplify things, but there are so many good things about this film. Immediately one that comes to mind is the shot of the Alien getting up, before it runs toward the lander, in front of the Catherdral entrance. Oh, speaking of the entrance, did anyone else catch that the door design was included in some of the concept art from Prometheus? Actually, a lot of Covenant's elements were taken right off the pages of Prometheus' early designs. The idea of creation, and how it is basically a re-fashioning of the Frankenstein story, is a huge reason why I really enjoy this film.
Quote from: Omegamorph on May 30, 2017, 03:07:46 PM
I don't get what is so wrong with the David-creating-Aliens idea in light that this is a sequel to Prommmeeeetjes
I mean
that film burned whatever lore and mysticism the Aliens and Space Jockeys had, so how is David creating the Aliens any more offensive or detrimental than that? If people were fine with the Engineers, how is this any worse? The field was already charred before it
Correct. You can't really argue the space jockey reveal away and then complain about what David is doing.
I must have misunderstood. I was under the impression that the drawing in the ampule room proved that engineers existed well before the prometheus / SPaihts idea of them came about. I was under the impression that the engineer facehug in that mural was based on earlier artwork from Geiger that depicted engineers getting face hugged
AND THERFORE
The idea of bald himinoids existed well prior in Geiger 's mind.
I think I am mistaken. I always took this "acceptable" because of the lovecraftian look of those facehuggers as resembling the "old ones" , those octopus looking gods described by Lovecraft. Now I am not certain any anymore.
Prometheus opened such an array of possibilities. I loved that about it. But they have basically now shut those possibilities down to a David centric narrative. David should have been the audience's guide . Now he is the antagonist. For whom are we rooting now? Who is going to tell us about 'the superior species " he adored so much?
Why has his motivations changed so much?
Perhaps the paradise engineers is similar to mankind. They lack the eerie black eyes.
Wait so what did SiL think of Covenant? SM?
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jun 02, 2017, 12:09:56 AM
Wait so what did SiL think of Covenant? SM?
Here's what Sil had to say.
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2017, 04:51:33 AM
Spoiler
Aliens are derived from combining space wasps with black goo mutations/10
Good first half. Bad second half. Aliens felt like they were fan service and really shouldn't been kept out. Dumber characters than Prometheus, or at least, one person dumber than them combined.
Not sure what SM thought.
I'd say the deafening silence of SM in this part of the woods speaks volumes. :D
Well, regardless of what he thought, I loved it.
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 02, 2017, 02:38:56 AM
Well, regardless of what he thought, I loved it.
I was looking for your reaction after following your videos on YouTube. I am glad you liked it, too.
In that case, here's my first impressions:
There's so much to discuss in regards to this film (or most films, when I watch them) but I feel like I really need to do a series with Alien: Covenant, where I devote each video to a specific aspect of the film, such as one pertaining to editing and another to characters or monster special effects, etc. With this video, I try to avoid going into specifics and analyzing the film at a thematic level, and explaining my reasoning behind the decisions that I make and arrive at, in regards to why I think the film is pretty damn great.
Caveat: I love Alien(s) and am not really a fan of 3 or Resurrection or the AvP films, but enjoyed Prometheus. Take that as you will.
I don't think I state it explicitly in the video but I consider Covenant is in the same strata as Alien and Aliens; it is of the same quality as those films, but is also partially removed from them in terms of structure and content, but not completely so. Some may condemn the deviation from the formula that made the first two films so excellent, but I didn't mind, and applaud Scott's courage and artistic vision.
Quote from: Predaker on Jun 02, 2017, 01:10:42 AM
I'd say the deafening silence of SM in this part of the woods speaks volumes. :D
Nah, I don't think SM tends to go to the cinema. He'll probably see it when it's out on home release. He'll be avoiding this board until he sees it, no doubt.
I think I read in Prometheus boards that he did go to the cinema. Or at least he was discussing it with the rest of the folk during it's release. Could be wrong though...
Quote from: Hemi on Jun 02, 2017, 08:11:12 AM
I think I read in Prometheus boards that he did go to the cinema. Or at least he was discussing it with the rest of the folk during it's release. Could be wrong though...
Maybe but i thought i checked his posts looking for his thoughts on the film and didnt see anything.
Sorry, was referring to Prometheus, not Covenant. Forgot to mention that. :P
Quote from: oduodu on Jun 01, 2017, 11:12:48 PM
I must have misunderstood. I was under the impression that the drawing in the ampule room proved that engineers existed well before the prometheus / SPaihts idea of them came about. I was under the impression that the engineer facehug in that mural was based on earlier artwork from Geiger that depicted engineers getting face hugged
AND THERFORE
The idea of bald himinoids existed well prior in Geiger 's mind.
I think I am mistaken. I always took this "acceptable" because of the lovecraftian look of those facehuggers as resembling the "old ones" , those octopus looking gods described by Lovecraft. Now I am not certain any anymore.
Not quite. Spaihts came up with the Engineer idea combining it with Scott's post-facto 'suit' concept which he came up with around the 90s. The design of the Engineers was based on Giger's concept art for Alien, which had no bearing on the story -- the 'bald human' in Giger's concept had no relationship to the Jockey at that time. The Space Jockey was intended as a skeleton of an alien thing during production of 'Alien' and well after, until Prometheus came about
Omegamorph
Thanks for clearing that up. I am back to square one then.
Quote from: juxtapose on Jun 01, 2017, 06:41:21 PM
thanks for your review biggles. .i had a very similar experience!
What's the phrase? 'There are dozens of us, literally dozens!'? Seriously though, happy to read that others did enjoy it. Excited but also scared to see how they tie things up with Alien - assuming Fox don't just reboot or recommission 'Alien 5'...
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 01, 2017, 07:20:28 PM
Quote from: Biggles on Jun 01, 2017, 05:53:41 PMFor me, this has somehow redeemed Prometheus.
See, I don't understand that viewpoint. I shouldn't have to watch another movie for Prometheus to be an enjoyable film. It should work on it's own. It doesn't, in my view, hence why I don't like it.
I mean you don't have to watch Aliens to thoroughly enjoy Alien.
I totally agree that you shouldn't *have* to, it's just a response I had to Covenant. And it has to do with my strong desire for Prometheus to have been an Alien prequel. Well, now it is - by default.
As of now, 191 people are saying this movie was 'good' or better, and 139 are 'it was okay' or worse. I can live with that.
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 02, 2017, 07:52:39 PM
As of now, 191 people are saying this movie was 'good' or better, and 139 are 'it was okay' or worse. I can live with that.
I think the 'Okay' category would be the outlier category here as it could be interpreted as going either way. If we throw it out, then we have 191 who say they 'like' Covenant and 73 who says they "didn't like' Covenant—not trying to confirm my own bias, but I am fascinated by survey methodology.
Quote from: echobbase79 on Jun 02, 2017, 12:23:16 AM
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jun 02, 2017, 12:09:56 AM
Wait so what did SiL think of Covenant? SM?
Here's what Sil had to say.
Quote from: SiL on May 11, 2017, 04:51:33 AM
Spoiler
Aliens are derived from combining space wasps with black goo mutations/10
Good first half. Bad second half. Aliens felt like they were fan service and really shouldn't been kept out. Dumber characters than Prometheus, or at least, one person dumber than them combined.
Not sure what SM thought.
Thank you!
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 02, 2017, 07:52:39 PM
As of now, 191 people are saying this movie was 'good' or better, and 139 are 'it was okay' or worse. I can live with that.
I would think "it was okay" would be a postive vote, not a negative one. But hey whatever floats your boat.
For a fanpage this is a bad poll result for the movie.
Quote from: stroggificated on Jun 04, 2017, 11:53:13 AM
For a fanpage this is a bad poll result for the movie.
i actually think it's very positive considdering how nitpicky fans generally are. .the 2 bottom choices are the only teally negative ones. .
. .the top 3 are generally positive and thats like 77 percent. .really not bad all considered. .
Nearly 80% scored it 3/5 or higher, don't see how that's bad...
Quote from: Rankles75 on Jun 04, 2017, 12:11:52 PM
Nearly 80% scored it 3/5 or higher, don't see how that's bad...
Its actually great considering how fractured and jaded this fandom has always been.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jun 02, 2017, 12:09:56 AM
Wait so what did SiL think of Covenant? SM?
I only watched it last night. Really enjoyed it. More satisfying than Prometheus. My only issues are the twist that could hardly be called a twist, and the ending was a bit mean spirited.
Where's the review from SiL
Quote from: juxtapose on Jun 04, 2017, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: stroggificated on Jun 04, 2017, 11:53:13 AM
For a fanpage this is a bad poll result for the movie.
i actually think it's very positive considdering how nitpicky fans generally are. .the 2 bottom choices are the only teally negative ones. .
. .the top 3 are generally positive and thats like 77 percent. .really not bad all considered. .
Yeah. Over 3/4 of people gave it a positive score.
Quote from: SM on Jun 05, 2017, 12:25:31 AM
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jun 02, 2017, 12:09:56 AM
Wait so what did SiL think of Covenant? SM?
I only watched it last night. Really enjoyed it. More satisfying than Prometheus. My only issues are the twist that could hardly be called a twist, and the ending was a bit mean spirited.
What took you so long? :P I'm glad you caught it in its theatrical run, though.
Busy.
Quote from: stroggificated on Jun 04, 2017, 11:53:13 AMFor a fanpage this is a bad poll result for the movie.
To be honest, if I
wasn't a fan I think I would've enjoyed it more, given that most of the things in it that annoyed me were to do with screwing around with continuity.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 05, 2017, 08:04:03 AM
most of the things in it that annoyed me were to do with screwing around with continuity.
What continuity was messed with?
The Chestburster suddenly looking a midget instead of a snake for one. Utterly pointless change.
There's also the magical instantaneous implantation.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 05, 2017, 05:31:29 PM
There's also the magical instantaneous implantation.
I literally had to ask my son, "where'd that second alien come from, anyway?" (I didn't recognize the corpse in the medlab). :P
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 05, 2017, 05:31:29 PM
The Chestburster suddenly looking a midget instead of a snake for one. Utterly pointless change.
There's also the magical instantaneous implantation.
There is at least some precedent for it considering the bambi burster in alien3.
I chalk the instantaneous implantation up to David's tinkering with this version of the creature, improving on certain areas of the lifecycle. But thats just a fan theorizing. I know its unpopular to believe that david may not have been the only one to come up with the alien.
Is it?
I figured after so many people still claiming that the Jockies aren't really bald dudes in suits, many would be claiming that David created something the Engineers already created previously.
Quote from: juxtapose on Jun 04, 2017, 12:00:11 PM
Quote from: stroggificated on Jun 04, 2017, 11:53:13 AM
For a fanpage this is a bad poll result for the movie.
. .the top 3 are generally positive and thats like 77 percent. .really not bad all considered. .
Yes, bad is probably not the most appropriate term. I think he probably wanted to elaborate on that (?):
Alien Covenant : AVPG 6.82 IMDb 6.8
Prometheus : AVPG 7.31 IMDb 7.0
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 05, 2017, 10:14:03 PMThere is at least some precedent for it considering the bambi burster in alien3.
Fair point, but different host creature. No Alien that's even come out of a human has ever been anything other than a snake. It felt like such an unnecessary change.
All so David could have a Mini Me moment with it. :laugh:
For what it's worth, I actually liked that. The scene was beautifully shot and scored. I just hated that they put a mini Alien in for no logical reason.
Hence my comment that if I wasn't a hardcore fan that actually cared about the franchise being coherent, I probably would've enjoyed the film a lot more.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 06, 2017, 08:55:14 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 05, 2017, 10:14:03 PMThere is at least some precedent for it considering the bambi burster in alien3.
Fair point, but different host creature. No Alien that's even come out of a human has ever been anything other than a snake. It felt like such an unnecessary change.
Except on ALIENS... The chestburster on that movie had fully functional arms... So, there is a precedent... However, the Alien whispering thing, both on the Xeno And the Neo, were too ridiculous for words... It made them far less scary, less menacing, etc... The chestburster on ALIENS was hissing at the soldiers the entire time and menacing... This was just... wrong...
Quote from: YutaniDitch on Jun 06, 2017, 05:51:45 PMExcept on ALIENS... The chestburster on that movie had fully functional arms... So, there is a precedent...
It was still a slug. The Chestburster in the first film had stumpy little nubs where the arms were forming.
Here's my review of the film:
http://nicksmovieinsights.blogspot.com/2017/06/alien-covenant-review.html
Loved the movie. Hates gonna hate.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 06, 2017, 06:08:06 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on Jun 06, 2017, 05:51:45 PMExcept on ALIENS... The chestburster on that movie had fully functional arms... So, there is a precedent...
It was still a slug. The Chestburster in the first film had stumpy little nubs where the arms were forming.
Isn't it also born like this in Covenant? From memory it's only as David sits watching it that it starts to grow limbs. I prefer the worm/grub/maggot thing myself so admittedly I'm cutting it some slack and putting it down to it's accelerated growth - established by the Neomorph back burster (ignoring the In Utero scene which - nice idea though it is - is inconsistent with the film).
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 06, 2017, 06:08:06 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on Jun 06, 2017, 05:51:45 PMExcept on ALIENS... The chestburster on that movie had fully functional arms... So, there is a precedent...
It was still a slug. The Chestburster in the first film had stumpy little nubs where the arms were forming.
Yes... even though we did not see the ALIENS chestburster from the chest down, it was still somewhat consistent with the one on ALIEN...
Considering there is no 2 alien films where the creatures look the same I'm not fussed by the way it looks.
Quote from: Alien³ on Jun 06, 2017, 08:19:24 PM
Considering there is no 2 alien films where the creatures look the same I'm not fussed by the way it looks.
This.
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 06, 2017, 06:48:06 PM
Here's my review of the film:
http://nicksmovieinsights.blogspot.com/2017/06/alien-covenant-review.html
Loved the movie. Hates gonna hate.
This was a very interesting read. Thanks.
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 06, 2017, 08:30:24 PM
Quote from: Alien³ on Jun 06, 2017, 08:19:24 PM
Considering there is no 2 alien films where the creatures look the same I'm not fussed by the way it looks.
This.
Yep. Alien designs have always changed movie to movie. Complaining that the chestburster looked different is like complaining that the xenos in Aliens had ribbed heads instead of a smooth dome.
Pretending this chest burster wasn't a major departure from previous ones is disingenuous however.
Quote from: SM on Jun 06, 2017, 10:01:46 PM
Pretending this chest burster wasn't a major departure from previous ones is disingenuous however.
Oh yeah, for sure, I just don't think it's worth getting upset about, as previous films have done the same thing.
I like the new chestburster design :o
I think the chestburster design in Covenant was just a shade too goofy-looking. I did like the translucency though.
Quote from: acidreign on Jun 06, 2017, 11:29:58 PM
I think the chestburster design in Covenant was just a shade too goofy-looking. I did like the translucency though.
Yes, the translucency in the bursters - both Xeno and Neo - was a nice throwback to what was intended with the alien in 79.
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 06, 2017, 06:48:06 PM
Here's my review of the film:
http://nicksmovieinsights.blogspot.com/2017/06/alien-covenant-review.html
Loved the movie. Hates gonna hate.
Good piece. Enjoyed reading that.
Quote from: SM on Jun 06, 2017, 10:01:46 PM
Pretending this chest burster wasn't a major departure from previous ones is disingenuous however.
Oh, whatever! So was the Queen.
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 07, 2017, 12:16:50 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 06, 2017, 10:01:46 PM
Pretending this chest burster wasn't a major departure from previous ones is disingenuous however.
Oh, whatever! So was the Queen.
Why?
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 07, 2017, 12:16:50 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 06, 2017, 10:01:46 PM
Pretending this chest burster wasn't a major departure from previous ones is disingenuous however.
Oh, whatever! So was the Queen.
Erm... that was a Queen. It
should look different.
I really liked how it burst out in its worm form and then unfolded its limbs. It was a really neat idea.
Whether it's a departure or not might be subjective. To me, it looks like a refinement. It also doesn't seem out of place considering the bambi burster was born with all its limbs. I dunno, maybe it can be put down to a case-by-case basis.
Quote from: PsyKore on Jun 07, 2017, 12:41:01 AM
I really liked how it burst out in its worm form and then unfolded its limbs. It was a really neat idea.
Right. Thats the way I remember it but I was starting to doubt myself. The limbs have to unfold at some point shortly after the birth why not show it.
I really like the fact that, when people have made entire threads agonising over how the alien can possibly grow when it doesn't feed, we now get to see that the thing just grows whilst you're watching it. It's alien, it has weird incomprehensible properties. The Neomorph, the Xenomorph, they're lethal from birth, practically from conception. This concept admittedly works better post Prometheus after the properties of the mutating pathogen have been established.
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 12:27:02 AM
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 07, 2017, 12:16:50 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 06, 2017, 10:01:46 PM
Pretending this chest burster wasn't a major departure from previous ones is disingenuous however.
Oh, whatever! So was the Queen.
Erm... that was a Queen. It should look different.
Because...? It's all arbitrary yet you act like it's divine will.
'Divine will'? What?
It looks different because it's a Queen.
The Bambi burster looks different because it came out of a dog or ox.
This one came out of a human and looks markedly different from other human-born chestbursters.
I don't take issue with how it looks - but it shouldn't be just lazily hand waved away either.
Yes, yes, you're talking about chestbursters. Cosmetics aside, what about the life-cycle that was a major deviation? Forget about pretending that something is or isn't a major deviation. It's that word "should" that I hate--that these changes should be made, per life-cycle, or these cosmetic approaches adapted. It's utter nonsense.
SM: "Oh, the chestburster should always look the same and you need to make sure people understand it's a major deviation if you give it arms. And the queen should look different." Right...
QuoteCosmetics aside, what about the life-cycle that was a major deviation?
I don't think I made such a claim.
QuoteSM: "Oh, the chestburster should always look the same and you need to make sure people understand it's a major deviation if you give it arms. And the queen should look different." Right...
Not sure why you're deliberately misrepresenting what I'm saying.
I think my issue with the queen is that it bears no relation to the human born aliens. I'm not knocking the quality of the Stan Winston build which is a remarkable achievement, but the queen is just so at odds with the stalking killer of ALIEN.
I don't really understand why it looks the way it does. It's a big baddie at the end of the film - ok I get that. It's got elements of some of Giger's other designs witinh it - ok I get that, but it's born of a human - (confirmed by Ripley's scan in Alien3) so why does it look like a giant spider / dinosaur hybrid? And why do the aliens suddenly feel like filler until her reveal?
Whilst some here talk about messing with beloved lore, I see no difference (less in fact) with the situation as it is now over as it was in 1986. It just comes down to personal preference and expectation. But fans 'demanding we should get what we want means nothing.
QuoteI don't really understand why it looks they way it does.
Being based on insects, Queens are generally larger as far as I know. As for the crown and all that - looks cool. In other circumstance perhaps the egg sac would extend out the back of the Queen (rather than the side like in the film) and the head may provide some protection - either real or imagined.
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 06, 2017, 06:48:06 PM
Here's my review of the film:
http://nicksmovieinsights.blogspot.com/2017/06/alien-covenant-review.html
Loved the movie. Hates gonna hate.
you gotta love the people that call hater to anyone that doesnt like the same things as them :D
The first paragraph didn't exactly set a promising tone...
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 01:19:28 AM
QuoteI don't really understand why it looks they way it does.
Being based on insects, Queens are generally larger as far as I know. As for the crown and all that - looks cool. In other circumstance perhaps the egg sac would extend out the back of the Queen (rather than the side like in the film) and the head may provide some protection - either real or imagined.
Ok, I get that. But that's part of the issue. The alien has a life cycle inspired by insects but Kane's Son does not look much like an insect. Covenant retroactively tries to placate the hive aspect with David's experiments involving alien insects as part of the DNA and that's fine, but the Alien queen just feels like it's so shoehorned in as the big bad insect mother - it's right back to the most predictable cliches of the B movies that ALIEN was a classy reinvention of. IMHO.
I think the Queen can also fit into the 'classy reinvention' category personally.
Yeah i have no issue with the queen either, love the design and her role in the lifecycle fits nicely.
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 01:25:44 AM
The first paragraph didn't exactly set a promising tone...
It takes a while to cool down to fandom after watching YouTubes ranters expressing their desire to see Scott die. Fandom can be pretty pitiful and it's easy enough to get too wound up by it. All things considered it's a moderate approach to the very vocal haters.
I was fully hating on fandom myself until a couple of days ago when I decided that watching YouTube reviews was a depressing waste of time that was winding me up. I then came here and, off the back of my YouTube experiences, indulged in pointless tit for tat. And still do a bit, but I'm trying to relax around a more knowledgable atmosphere here :)
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 01:30:43 AM
I think the Queen can also fit into the 'classy reinvention' category personally.
Fair enough. I just don't think it's any less at odds with ALIEN that Covenant is with Aliens. It's just that nobody else has really tried to expand the lore much since. I know many fans saw Aliens first, maybe that makes a difference?
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 01:25:44 AM
The first paragraph didn't exactly set a promising tone...
Call it like I see it. It's not like you're one who doesn't speak his mind.
Quote from: D88M on Jun 07, 2017, 01:22:20 AM
you gotta love the people that call hater to anyone that doesnt like the same things as them :D
It's called taking a stance. Don't get your knickers in a twist. Beisdes, it's in peoples' rhetoric; their prose and their titles. Read the reviews online. Hate for Covenant isn't exactly subtle.
I could dress it up with political language if that'd float your boat, though. Call it amiable prejudice, instead, to shield your delicate sensibilities?
That kind of dismissiveness is why I didn't venture much further into reading it.
That and the faux victim thing.
And I like the movie, same as you.
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 07, 2017, 01:46:54 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 01:25:44 AM
The first paragraph didn't exactly set a promising tone...
Call it like I see it. It's not like you're one who doesn't speak his mind.
Quote from: D88M on Jun 07, 2017, 01:22:20 AM
you gotta love the people that call hater to anyone that doesnt like the same things as them :D
It's called taking a stance. Don't get your knickers in a twist. Beisdes, it's in peoples' rhetoric; their prose and their titles. Read the reviews online. Hate for Covenant isn't exactly subtle.
I could dress it up with political language if that'd float your boat, though. Call it amiable prejudice, instead, to shield your delicate sensibilities?
I like ALL Alien movies, even Resurrection, even Prometheus, even Alien 3 theatrical cut, even Covenant which is not bad but not too good either
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 02:02:54 AM
That kind of dismissiveness is why I didn't venture much further into reading it.
That and the faux victim thing.
And I like the movie, same as you.
Yeah, i dont get his tone of speaking, but whatever float his boat i suppose, good for him if he loved the movie
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 01:25:44 AM
The first paragraph didn't exactly set a promising tone...
I glossed over the first 8, 9 or 10 paragraphs and is more of the same, is more like a rant against the fans that did not liked Covenant than a review
Actually Nick's review is interesting and it is a blog after all, so it has a personal spin by definition. Sure, the opening paragraphs refer to the film's detractors quite a few times, but the vast majority of the text is actually quite comprehensive with lots of interesting observations that go beyond the horizon of an average YouTube reviewer who mostly picks films apart without much thought on a conceptual level.
I watched the first 5 minutes of his Youtube version, struggled past the 'everyone doesn't like this movie and they're all dumb', but ultimately gave up, so I'm no position to judge.
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 05:59:35 AM
I watched the first 5 minutes of his Youtube version, struggled past the 'everyone doesn't like this movie and they're all dumb', but ultimately gave up, so I'm no position to judge.
I didn't see the YouTube version. And actually I was reading his review backwards, from the bottom paragraphs to the bottom ones.
Quote from: SM on Jun 06, 2017, 10:01:46 PM
Pretending this chest burster wasn't a major departure from previous ones is disingenuous however.
wah I only want a repeat of Aliens wah wah
Is there something the matter with your keyboard? Your post has the word 'wah' appearing randomly.
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 06:26:59 AM
Is there something the matter with your keyboard? Your post has the word 'wah' appearing randomly.
Too much Jimi Hendrix.
:laugh:
:D :D :D ;D
I'm getting immensely bored of certain people who are unable to accept that other people may not agree with them or think the same of the film and instead of being gents about it, act like dicks. If you can't present yourself in a mature manner, don't respond. It's as simple as that. I have an expectation that the people here are at least teenagers (I can't remember the exact age limit) so let's actually see people acting like it.
So let's see less dismissive responds, let's see less generalizations and how about we have some adult conversations? If you're incapable then there's really no point in responding at all.
Completely agree, man. It is getting really boring. Every day I come on all I'm seeing are the same childish spats and arguments going on and on.
I liked Covenant. I liked it alot. I love that Scott didn't just give us a straight up remake of Alien and delivered something fresh. Remember when Predators came out? I couldn't wait. All I wanted was a simple rehash of Predator. Which is exactly what we got. And during the film I could not believe how bored I was. It dawned on me that I had already seen this movie before albeit a vastly superior version.
So I love that Scott gave us a new alien film that dares to be different. It's every bit the 'Alien' movie and it plays with the familiar creatures and alien movie tropes we all know and love, but it's a new and fresh take on them from one of the main men responsible for 'birthing' this great series. Not only that but the film has given us new insight into another strain of the Alien creature in the 'Neomorph'. Which has already left a lasting impression on fans and filmgoers alike. I feel like alot folks who are angry at the film or fans who didn't like it are lashing out because they did not get a straight up 'monster-in-a-tin-can' movie from Ridley this time around. Scott has been there and done that, he nailed it in fact! And in doing so created the definitive sci fi horror movie of all time. Forgive him if he'd like to elaborate and try something different.
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 02:02:54 AM
That kind of dismissiveness is why I didn't venture much further into reading it.
"I'm too lazy to read." OK, got it.
Quote from: D88M on Jun 07, 2017, 02:47:49 AM
I glossed over the first 8, 9 or 10 paragraphs and is more of the same, is more like a rant against the fans that did not liked Covenant than a review
And you sound like someone who didn't read a single word of what I wrote. "In these paragraphs, he wrote this." Uh, maybe cite some actual quotes from my piece? You're just like SM: "Oh, he takes a stance that I don't agree with. I don't feel like reading it..." The hypocrisy you guys utilize is rather thick. If you can't read the review or use anything from it in a counterargument, you're not actually talking about it.
I'm not going to just say what makes people happy and slap a random number score onto it; that's what constitutes reviews, nowadays. If you want call what I wrote a rant, that's your prerogative, but I fail to see how what I wrote constitutes anything remotely close to one.
I engage with this forum once in five years. I was willing to give AC a chance despite my deep misgivings about the plot. Outside a couple excellent sequences and some spectacular production design it failed to meet even my low bar. It didn't trip up because of the relatively tiny niche fandom on this site which ultimately means very little - I still expected it to do well and make money. But it failed there too because the movie didn't work on a larger systemic level, and evidently general audiences saw that coming somehow without giving a shit about AVPGalaxy.net.
The problem with a lot of film reviews these days is that too many of them become glorified blogging - a personal journey into a self-focused, self-reflexive narrative that seems designed for resume padding to be able to pitch the Great American Screenplay, as opposed to engaging simply with the media free of personal complexes. This is where you and so many other talking heads on YouTube I don't watch make mistakes. People not liking the movie is not about a reflection on you or anyone else on this silly board. It's about people not liking the movie. That's it. You need to get out of your own head, ignore this board, and look at those reasons instead of assuming this is all about us or how we relate to you. Because it's not. In the real world nobody gives a shit about any of us. The real world is where this movie died.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 07, 2017, 07:05:52 AM
I'm getting immensely bored of certain people who are unable to accept that other people may not agree with them or think the same of the film and instead of being gents about it, act like dicks. If you can't present yourself in a mature manner, don't respond. It's as simple as that. I have an expectation that the people here are at least teenagers (I can't remember the exact age limit) so let's actually see people acting like it.
So let's see less dismissive responds, let's see less generalizations and how about we have some adult conversations? If you're incapable then there's really no point in responding at all.
I've been waiting for this. Thanks Hicks! :-)
Oh, and well said SpeedyMaxx
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on Jun 07, 2017, 01:01:55 PM
People not liking the movie is not about a reflection on you or anyone else on this silly board. It's about people not liking the movie. That's it. You need to get out of your own head, ignore this board, and look at those reasons instead of assuming this is all about us or how we relate to you. Because it's not. In the real world nobody gives a shit about any of us. The real world is where this movie died.
And you could say the same of Blade Runner when it completely and utterly bombed, and was torn apart by critics. As far as I'm concerned the information that "peopled didn't like Covenant" simply isn't useful or interesting to me. For me, it's about looking beyond the simple facts that "people don't like the movie" and analyzing the movies, themselves. I don't expect to change people's minds if they're dead-set against it. But I do get annoyed if people attack what I write without demonstrating that they've read it, in any shape or form. Yes, this means citing quotes.
They're free to attack me, if they want, but that doesn't mean I have to care. At the end of the day I don't. Sure, I wish Covenant did better, but the reasons for its poor performance aren't mysterious to me. And in my arguments, I don't simply dismiss people who attack the film. Maybe in the title. But in my arguments, I provide plenty of their own statements through my own lens. I at least can interact with their rhetoric via my own in actual discourse, as opposed to clapping my hands over my ears and going "lalalalalalalalala! I'm not listening to you!"
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 07, 2017, 02:47:34 PMAnd you could say the same of Blade Runner when it completely and utterly bombed, and was torn apart by critics.
I'd be
very surprised if
Covenant is ever held in the same regard as
Blade Runner.
For one thing,
Blade Runner was innovative.
Ah yes, but does it have android kung-fu?
QuoteAnd you could say the same of Blade Runner when it completely and utterly bombed, and was torn apart by critics.
Wow.
Actually, no you could not say that. Covenant is nowhere near the same tier as Blade Runner. It's nowhere near the same tier as Alien. And since so many people here seem to--for some reason--consider Aliens to be an enemy or rival of Alien, instead of a companion, then I'll ruffle all your sensitive little feathers to definitively state that Covenant is also nowhere near the same tier as Aliens either. Alien, Aliens, Blade Runner; those are each individually groundbreaking films outside of the context of Ridley Scott, James Cameron, or the science-fiction genre. Alien Covenant doesn't break new ground within the Alien series, and sure as hell doesn't within general cinema.
Like I've mentioned before, people liking the film doesn't bother me. Whatever, people like Prometheus and I've had to get over that over the last five years too. But defending Alien Covenant, which many are saying is the 3rd best film in the series, by putting it on the same plane as some of the best films ever made is absurd, and makes one come off as insecure that they won't be surrounded and validated by other proponents of Covenant at all times. You can like Covenant, but give me a break.
Not to mention, Blade Runner's theatrical situation is not the same as Covenant's at all. The film's production was not a rose garden, hence we didn't see the film originally intended. There's no indication that this is the case with Covenant. We know ~20 minutes were cut for mere running time, not for content. Covenant will be the exact same movie in 35 years, unlike Blade Runner. Scott has had absolute control over this film, so we have the definitive finished product right now. Second, Blade Runner was blown out by ET (like every other genre film in 1982), not the critics. Go ahead and compare that to Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 absolutely destroying Covenant at the box office if you want, but it's also not the same. Guardians of the Galaxy may have been a surprise, but its anticipated sequel was not, and Covenant's reviews weren't all that bad.
Don't get me wrong. I'm a loyal fan and will purchase the Blu-Ray. But let's not trivialize film masterpieces in defense of something that
at best is objectively 'decent,' especially in the context of Scott's career.
Hudson, if you ever come to Pasadena, CA I am buying you a beer! That was an amazing post that articulated everything I would want to if I had such a command of language.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jun 07, 2017, 05:25:54 PM
Hudson, if you ever come to Pasadena, CA I am buying you a beer! That was an amazing post that articulated everything I would want to if I had such a command of language.
I second that! Bravo!
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 05:21:01 PM
Actually, no you could not say that. Covenant is nowhere near the same tier as Blade Runner. It's nowhere near the same tier as Alien.
I say it is.
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 05:21:01 PM
Alien Covenant doesn't break new ground within the Alien series, and sure as hell doesn't within general cinema.
Sure it does.
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 05:21:01 PM
But defending Alien Covenant, which many are saying is the 3rd best film in the series, by putting it on the same plane as some of the best films ever made is absurd [...] You can like Covenant, but give me a break.
And why not? I love Alien. It's a great film. I like Aliens. Good movie. So why can't I categorize the three of them together? Because you think it's absurd? These are merely films. I love Alien and Blade Runner but give me a break.
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 05:21:01 PM
Covenant will be the exact same movie in 35 years, unlike Blade Runner. Scott has had absolute control over this film, so we have the definitive finished product right now.
I'd go out on a limb and say that's a bit of a stretch, for a plethora of reasons. Not big on soothsaying. Sorry.
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 05:21:01 PM
But let's not trivialize film masterpieces in defense of something that at best is objectively 'decent,' especially in the context of Scott's career.
I think the planet will keep on turning regardless.
Sounds familiare to:
clapping my hands over my ears and going "lalalalalalalalala! I'm not listening to you!"
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 07, 2017, 07:11:21 PM
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 07, 2017, 07:09:46 PMSure it does.
In what way?
I adore Blade Runner and Alien, but they do have flaws and limitations.
Alien is more effective than Covenant, IMO, but isn't as deep.
Blade Runner is a greater artistic achievement than either Alien film, but it has some glaring plot holes in the early cuts and Harrison Ford's performance is pretty weak. It's his most interesting character, but one of his worst performances, IMO.
So there's wiggle room to rank Covenant up there with great sci-fi cinema by Ridley, but I would personally rank it much lower for my personal tastes. It is closer to Legend in terms of quality than Blade Runner. The Martian is probably the most effective overall, although maybe not as personal, idiosyncratic, or artistic Blade Runner, Prometheus, or even Covenant.
Different strokes.
To me Blade Runner is a faux-artsy exercise in style. But then again, deep deep down, the very first Alien is an exercise in style as well. Don't get me wrong, I was raised on those two films. I first saw them when I was 7 and loved them ever since. To me Covenant achieved things Blade Runner only superficially touched upon, though. And it incorporated its artsiness in a lot meaningful way, I'd say.
And yes, Nick is right, Blade Runner flopped extremely hard and was scorned by critics for nearly a decade.
Quote from: Protozoid on Jun 07, 2017, 07:18:40 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 07, 2017, 07:11:21 PM
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 07, 2017, 07:09:46 PMSure it does.
In what way?
I adore Blade Runner and Alien, but they do have flaws and limitations.
Alien is more effective than Covenant, IMO, but isn't as deep.
Blade Runner is a greater artistic achievement than either Alien film, but it has some glaring plot holes in the early cuts and Harrison Ford's performance is pretty weak. It's his most interesting character, but one of his worst performances, IMO.
So there's wiggle room to rank Covenant up there with great sci-fi cinema by Ridley, but I would personally rank it much lower for my personal tastes. It is closer to Legend in terms of quality than Blade Runner. The Martian is probably the most effective overall, although maybe not as personal, idiosyncratic, or artistic Blade Runner, Prometheus, or even Covenant.
Different strokes.
The positives I take away from Covenant are that finally an Alien film, with Alien in the title, has some epic and breathtaking shots and sequences. Mainly talking about the nitrino burst, the solar panel repair, landing on Paradise, the Engineers' decimation, and the xenomorph entering the cargo bay.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jun 07, 2017, 07:52:41 PM
Quote from: Protozoid on Jun 07, 2017, 07:18:40 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 07, 2017, 07:11:21 PM
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 07, 2017, 07:09:46 PMSure it does.
In what way?
I adore Blade Runner and Alien, but they do have flaws and limitations.
Alien is more effective than Covenant, IMO, but isn't as deep.
Blade Runner is a greater artistic achievement than either Alien film, but it has some glaring plot holes in the early cuts and Harrison Ford's performance is pretty weak. It's his most interesting character, but one of his worst performances, IMO.
So there's wiggle room to rank Covenant up there with great sci-fi cinema by Ridley, but I would personally rank it much lower for my personal tastes. It is closer to Legend in terms of quality than Blade Runner. The Martian is probably the most effective overall, although maybe not as personal, idiosyncratic, or artistic Blade Runner, Prometheus, or even Covenant.
Different strokes.
The positives I take away from Covenant are that finally an Alien film, with Alien in the title, has some epic and breathtaking shots and sequences. Mainly talking about the nitrino burst, the solar panel repair, landing on Paradise, the Engineers' decimation, and the xenomorph entering the cargo bay.
I took the neutrino burst as a negative. Neutrinos are harmless and pass through all of us every second of every day. A quick google search would have informed the writers of that, so in my opinion it was a lazy and sloppy plot devise. There are plenty of other harmful "bursts" that would have served that purpose well enough.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 07, 2017, 08:01:44 PM
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jun 07, 2017, 07:52:41 PM
Quote from: Protozoid on Jun 07, 2017, 07:18:40 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 07, 2017, 07:11:21 PM
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 07, 2017, 07:09:46 PMSure it does.
In what way?
I adore Blade Runner and Alien, but they do have flaws and limitations.
Alien is more effective than Covenant, IMO, but isn't as deep.
Blade Runner is a greater artistic achievement than either Alien film, but it has some glaring plot holes in the early cuts and Harrison Ford's performance is pretty weak. It's his most interesting character, but one of his worst performances, IMO.
So there's wiggle room to rank Covenant up there with great sci-fi cinema by Ridley, but I would personally rank it much lower for my personal tastes. It is closer to Legend in terms of quality than Blade Runner. The Martian is probably the most effective overall, although maybe not as personal, idiosyncratic, or artistic Blade Runner, Prometheus, or even Covenant.
Different strokes.
The positives I take away from Covenant are that finally an Alien film, with Alien in the title, has some epic and breathtaking shots and sequences. Mainly talking about the nitrino burst, the solar panel repair, landing on Paradise, the Engineers' decimation, and the xenomorph entering the cargo bay.
I took the neutrino burst as a negative. Neutrinos are harmless and pass through all of us every second of every day. A quick google search would have informed the writers of that, so in my opinion it was a lazy and sloppy plot devise. There are plenty of other harmful "bursts" that would have served that purpose well enough.
Paying attention to the film would also reveal that the neutrino burst was also a concomitant of a solar flare. It is SAID in the film.
Quote from: Salt The Fries on Jun 07, 2017, 07:43:49 PM
And yes, Nick is right, Blade Runner flopped extremely hard and was scorned by critics for nearly a decade.
Yes, sadly it did. At the time the critics response seemed to be, this is the guy that did Alien, so let's bring him down a peg or two and bash it. Vangelis' music was ridiculed for being chosen because it was fashionable in the wake of Chariots of Fire. Critics had by this stage decided that The Duellists was style over substance - Alien also received that accusation but it was with Blade Runner that the detractors felt they had the definitive proof of their negative bias. So again Blade Runner was a film that was considered to be all about visuals with no worthwhile substance. One critic accused Scott of stealing Kubrick's footage from the opening of The Shining for the closing of Blade Runner. Scott was even criticised by an American critic for the way he himself looked. The knives were out for Blade Runner and it only got proper re-evalution after the accidental screening of an early voice-over-less cut years later when the negative clamour surrounding it had faded into insignificance.
Quote from: Salt The Fries on Jun 07, 2017, 08:04:05 PM
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 07, 2017, 08:01:44 PM
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jun 07, 2017, 07:52:41 PM
Quote from: Protozoid on Jun 07, 2017, 07:18:40 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 07, 2017, 07:11:21 PM
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 07, 2017, 07:09:46 PMSure it does.
In what way?
I adore Blade Runner and Alien, but they do have flaws and limitations.
Alien is more effective than Covenant, IMO, but isn't as deep.
Blade Runner is a greater artistic achievement than either Alien film, but it has some glaring plot holes in the early cuts and Harrison Ford's performance is pretty weak. It's his most interesting character, but one of his worst performances, IMO.
So there's wiggle room to rank Covenant up there with great sci-fi cinema by Ridley, but I would personally rank it much lower for my personal tastes. It is closer to Legend in terms of quality than Blade Runner. The Martian is probably the most effective overall, although maybe not as personal, idiosyncratic, or artistic Blade Runner, Prometheus, or even Covenant.
Different strokes.
The positives I take away from Covenant are that finally an Alien film, with Alien in the title, has some epic and breathtaking shots and sequences. Mainly talking about the nitrino burst, the solar panel repair, landing on Paradise, the Engineers' decimation, and the xenomorph entering the cargo bay.
I took the neutrino burst as a negative. Neutrinos are harmless and pass through all of us every second of every day. A quick google search would have informed the writers of that, so in my opinion it was a lazy and sloppy plot devise. There are plenty of other harmful "bursts" that would have served that purpose well enough.
Paying attention to the film would also reveal that the neutrino burst was also a concomitant of a solar flare. It is SAID in the film.
I don't recall that, but then again I only saw the film once. I'll take your word for it...
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 07, 2017, 08:21:58 PM
Quote from: Salt The Fries on Jun 07, 2017, 08:04:05 PM
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 07, 2017, 08:01:44 PM
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jun 07, 2017, 07:52:41 PM
Quote from: Protozoid on Jun 07, 2017, 07:18:40 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 07, 2017, 07:11:21 PM
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 07, 2017, 07:09:46 PMSure it does.
In what way?
I adore Blade Runner and Alien, but they do have flaws and limitations.
Alien is more effective than Covenant, IMO, but isn't as deep.
Blade Runner is a greater artistic achievement than either Alien film, but it has some glaring plot holes in the early cuts and Harrison Ford's performance is pretty weak. It's his most interesting character, but one of his worst performances, IMO.
So there's wiggle room to rank Covenant up there with great sci-fi cinema by Ridley, but I would personally rank it much lower for my personal tastes. It is closer to Legend in terms of quality than Blade Runner. The Martian is probably the most effective overall, although maybe not as personal, idiosyncratic, or artistic Blade Runner, Prometheus, or even Covenant.
Different strokes.
The positives I take away from Covenant are that finally an Alien film, with Alien in the title, has some epic and breathtaking shots and sequences. Mainly talking about the nitrino burst, the solar panel repair, landing on Paradise, the Engineers' decimation, and the xenomorph entering the cargo bay.
I took the neutrino burst as a negative. Neutrinos are harmless and pass through all of us every second of every day. A quick google search would have informed the writers of that, so in my opinion it was a lazy and sloppy plot devise. There are plenty of other harmful "bursts" that would have served that purpose well enough.
Paying attention to the film would also reveal that the neutrino burst was also a concomitant of a solar flare. It is SAID in the film.
I don't recall that, but then again I only saw the film once. I'll take your word for it...
I saw it twice and the second time I took a mental note of all the common criticisms and I had a mindset to confront if any of them were actually founded :D Thanks for trusting me, bro :)
No, thank YOU for pointing that out! I'd be too focused on that otherwise! Lol
Quote from: Gash on Jun 07, 2017, 08:21:09 PM
Quote from: Salt The Fries on Jun 07, 2017, 07:43:49 PM
And yes, Nick is right, Blade Runner flopped extremely hard and was scorned by critics for nearly a decade.
Yes, sadly it did. At the time the critics response seemed to be, this is the guy that did Alien, so let's bring him down a peg or two and bash it. Vangelis' music was ridiculed for being chosen because it was fashionable in the wake of Chariots of Fire. Critics had by this stage decided that The Duellists was style over substance - Alien also received that accusation but it was with Blade Runner that the detractors felt they had the definitive proof of their negative bias. So again Blade Runner was a film that was considered to be all about visuals with no worthwhile substance. One critic accused Scott of stealing Kubrick's footage from the opening of The Shining for the closing of Blade Runner. Scott was even criticised by an American critic for the way he himself looked. The knives were out for Blade Runner and it only got proper re-evalution after the accidental screening of an early voice-over-less cut years later when the negative clamour surrounding it had faded into insignificance.
Lol come to think of it. I was meeting, you can sort of call it dating one chick a decade ago. I decided to watch Blade Runner with her. We never got laid, though. Fill the dots yourself.
QuoteAlien is more effective than Covenant, IMO, but isn't as deep.
I'm curious as to what your definition of 'deep' is. Merely serving up a more complex (convoluted) plot doesn't make something deep. The fact that Alien is a monster movie at it's core hasn't prevented academics from writing hundreds if not thousands of pages of critical, theoretical analysis on the film. I can scarcely think of a movie so straightforward on the surface that is so densely packed with subtext. I highly doubt we'll see as much intellectual engagement with Covenant in 40 years outside of Youtube videos.
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 07, 2017, 07:09:46 PM
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 05:21:01 PM
Actually, no you could not say that. Covenant is nowhere near the same tier as Blade Runner. It's nowhere near the same tier as Alien.
I say it is.
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 05:21:01 PM
Alien Covenant doesn't break new ground within the Alien series, and sure as hell doesn't within general cinema.
Sure it does.
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 05:21:01 PM
But defending Alien Covenant, which many are saying is the 3rd best film in the series, by putting it on the same plane as some of the best films ever made is absurd [...] You can like Covenant, but give me a break.
And why not? I love Alien. It's a great film. I like Aliens. Good movie. So why can't I categorize the three of them together? Because you think it's absurd? These are merely films. I love Alien and Blade Runner but give me a break.
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 05:21:01 PM
Covenant will be the exact same movie in 35 years, unlike Blade Runner. Scott has had absolute control over this film, so we have the definitive finished product right now.
I'd go out on a limb and say that's a bit of a stretch, for a plethora of reasons. Not big on soothsaying. Sorry.
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 05:21:01 PM
But let's not trivialize film masterpieces in defense of something that at best is objectively 'decent,' especially in the context of Scott's career.
I think the planet will keep on turning regardless.
Care to elaborate on literally any of these responses? They might as well be Tweets.
Quote from: Gash on Jun 07, 2017, 08:21:09 PM
Quote from: Salt The Fries on Jun 07, 2017, 07:43:49 PM
And yes, Nick is right, Blade Runner flopped extremely hard and was scorned by critics for nearly a decade.
Yes, sadly it did. At the time the critics response seemed to be, this is the guy that did Alien, so let's bring him down a peg or two and bash it. Vangelis' music was ridiculed for being chosen because it was fashionable in the wake of Chariots of Fire. Critics had by this stage decided that The Duellists was style over substance - Alien also received that accusation but it was with Blade Runner that the detractors felt they had the definitive proof of their negative bias. So again Blade Runner was a film that was considered to be all about visuals with no worthwhile substance. One critic accused Scott of stealing Kubrick's footage from the opening of The Shining for the closing of Blade Runner. Scott was even criticised by an American critic for the way he himself looked. The knives were out for Blade Runner and it only got proper re-evalution after the accidental screening of an early voice-over-less cut years later when the negative clamour surrounding it had faded into insignificance.
Alien also received mixed reviews. Many critics condemned it as just a haunted house movie in space and said it was all style and no substance. Some of the reviews were actually pretty savage.
Masterpieces become so over time, not on initial release.
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 07, 2017, 11:00:09 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 02:02:54 AM
That kind of dismissiveness is why I didn't venture much further into reading it.
"I'm too lazy to read." OK, got it.
Quote from: D88M on Jun 07, 2017, 02:47:49 AM
I glossed over the first 8, 9 or 10 paragraphs and is more of the same, is more like a rant against the fans that did not liked Covenant than a review
And you sound like someone who didn't read a single word of what I wrote. "In these paragraphs, he wrote this." Uh, maybe cite some actual quotes from my piece? You're just like SM: "Oh, he takes a stance that I don't agree with. I don't feel like reading it..." The hypocrisy you guys utilize is rather thick. If you can't read the review or use anything from it in a counterargument, you're not actually talking about it.
I'm not going to just say what makes people happy and slap a random number score onto it; that's what constitutes reviews, nowadays. If you want call what I wrote a rant, that's your prerogative, but I fail to see how what I wrote constitutes anything remotely close to one.
It's not laziness or hypocrisy - it's not wanting to be treated with with pretentious condescension for any longer than I have to.
On top of that, I specifically said I'm not in a position to judge because I hadn't read the whole thing.
Evil robot and mad scientist have both been done before in the series.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 07, 2017, 09:30:43 PM
Evil robot and mad scientist have both been done before in the series.
Not to mention robots as developed characters along with other characters who also have 'story arcs.'
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 09:39:53 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 07, 2017, 09:30:43 PM
Evil robot and mad scientist have both been done before in the series.
Not to mention robots as developed characters along with other characters who also have 'story arcs.'
Which character are you referring to?
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jun 07, 2017, 09:48:17 PM
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 09:39:53 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 07, 2017, 09:30:43 PM
Evil robot and mad scientist have both been done before in the series.
Not to mention robots as developed characters along with other characters who also have 'story arcs.'
Which character are you referring to?
Probably all of them
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 07, 2017, 09:52:39 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jun 07, 2017, 09:48:17 PM
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 09:39:53 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 07, 2017, 09:30:43 PM
Evil robot and mad scientist have both been done before in the series.
Not to mention robots as developed characters along with other characters who also have 'story arcs.'
Which character are you referring to?
Probably all of them
More nonsense then
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jun 07, 2017, 09:54:39 PM
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 07, 2017, 09:52:39 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jun 07, 2017, 09:48:17 PM
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 09:39:53 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 07, 2017, 09:30:43 PM
Evil robot and mad scientist have both been done before in the series.
Not to mention robots as developed characters along with other characters who also have 'story arcs.'
Which character are you referring to?
Probably all of them
More nonsense then
Really? How so? Ash, Bishop and Call had 'story arcs'
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 07, 2017, 09:57:16 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jun 07, 2017, 09:54:39 PM
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 07, 2017, 09:52:39 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jun 07, 2017, 09:48:17 PM
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 09:39:53 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 07, 2017, 09:30:43 PM
Evil robot and mad scientist have both been done before in the series.
Not to mention robots as developed characters along with other characters who also have 'story arcs.'
Which character are you referring to?
Probably all of them
More nonsense then
Really? How so? Ash, Bishop and Call had 'story arcs'
I would hardy call them story arcs. These are far from complex characters. Call probably has the most I guess but it's an incredibly contrived one, in a film I can barely bring myself to watch.
David is the only android so far to have a story arc because he's the centre of the story. Ash and bishop are peripheral and serve Ripleys story arc.
Call's arc is in her changing attitude to Ripley.
Ash and Bishop- yep, no arc. We learn more about them, but they don't change over the course of the story.
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 07, 2017, 11:00:09 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 02:02:54 AM
That kind of dismissiveness is why I didn't venture much further into reading it.
"I'm too lazy to read." OK, got it.
Quote from: D88M on Jun 07, 2017, 02:47:49 AM
I glossed over the first 8, 9 or 10 paragraphs and is more of the same, is more like a rant against the fans that did not liked Covenant than a review
And you sound like someone who didn't read a single word of what I wrote. "In these paragraphs, he wrote this." Uh, maybe cite some actual quotes from my piece? You're just like SM: "Oh, he takes a stance that I don't agree with. I don't feel like reading it..." The hypocrisy you guys utilize is rather thick. If you can't read the review or use anything from it in a counterargument, you're not actually talking about it.
I'm not going to just say what makes people happy and slap a random number score onto it; that's what constitutes reviews, nowadays. If you want call what I wrote a rant, that's your prerogative, but I fail to see how what I wrote constitutes anything remotely close to one.
I did, i read the first, like, 10 paragraphs, maybe is you who didnt read what i wrote lol, i am not gonna put the 10 paragraphs here, is pointless, i got bored of reading it because in the title said "Covenant review" and was more like a rant against people who did liked the movie
what hipocrisy? what are you even talking about?
You can say whatever you want bro, i dont care, and i know a lot about not saying something just to make everyone happy, i liked Covenant, is a good movie, but is not great, not by a long shot, though it does have some GREAT moments
Reviews are about objectively talking about a movie, about its virtues and flaws, and how good or bad is overall
Maybe rant is not the exact word, english is not my first language so excuse me everybody for any typos, but is just like: This is what i think of the people that dont liked Covenant, for 10 paragraphs at least, and also, it might be just me, but you sound a little agressive and superior in your tone, we can have a civilized debate without accusing anybody of anything about stuff we like or dont like
Also, lets be honest, Covenant is good with some great moments, no doubt about it, but it could, and it should have been so much better, it lacks connection to Prometheus, the characters but David and Walter are bland and generic, the ending is like a dumbed down, rushed, modern recycled version of the Alien ending, the pacing after the first hour is rushed (it shows that footage is missing), some dialogues are not so good, etcetera, all movies have flaws of course, and except 2001 and Solaris (the Russian version, of course) no movie is perfect, but Covenant is far from being even a great movie
I've seen many films with amazingly deep, complex characters but Alien and Aliens are definatley not amongst them. Alien is my fave film of all time but it's just a genre flick whose characters can be summed up in a sentence.
Lambert, Parker, Dallas etc are no less meat for the grinder than Farris or Karine.
For me, Oram is one of the most complex characters in the entire series. Alien 3 and Covenant are the strongest entries character wise IMO.
Yeah I quite liked Oram and based on the pre-release stuff I really thought I wouldn't.
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 10:55:04 PM
Yeah I quite liked Oram and based on the pre-release stuff I really thought I wouldn't.
Yeah I was the same. I expected a religious zeolot, a figure to hate but I found him to be very real and sympathetic. It subverted my expectations which is one of the reasons I like the film.
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 06, 2017, 06:48:06 PM
Here's my review of the film:
http://nicksmovieinsights.blogspot.com/2017/06/alien-covenant-review.html
Loved the movie. Hates gonna hate.
We need to get Nickissmart to interview Ridley
and shirtless too, like in his 40minute youtube vids.
and with Goodbye Horses blaring in the background.
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 08:32:21 PM
On top of that, I specifically said I'm not in a position to judge because I hadn't read the whole thing.
And yet, despite not being in a position to judge because you haven't read it, you are judging me all the same. Or is "pretentious condescension" something other than judgement rendered, where you come from? You not having read my piece doesn't wash your hands of being judgmental, it just invalidates anything you say, in regards to my arguments, and ironically makes what you say in and of itself pretentious.
As for you "not wanting to be treated with pretentious condescension for any longer than [you] have to," the act of judging a book by its cover (or in my case, my article by its introduction) makes for a lazy reader.
Quote from: D88M on Jun 07, 2017, 10:40:16 PM
I did, i read the first, like, 10 paragraphs
Could've fooled me, in that you fail to actually give any examples from the article.
Quote from: D88M on Jun 07, 2017, 10:40:16 PM
i am not gonna put the 10 paragraphs here, is pointless
An example from the paper is not the same thing as the entire paper, itself. The fact that you think otherwise suggests that you don't know how to cite quotes. You don't provide a single example of anything that I actually wrote in my paper, except the title. Why should I think that you actually read what I wrote if you can't actually specify the contents of my writing?
Quote from: D88M on Jun 07, 2017, 10:40:16 PM
Maybe rant is not the exact word, english is not my first language
Maybe not.
Quote from: skhellter on Jun 07, 2017, 11:02:38 PM
We need to get Nickissmart to interview Ridley
and shirtless too, like in his 40minute youtube vids.
and with Goodbye Horses blaring in the background.
A census-taker once tried to test me...
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 07, 2017, 09:30:43 PM
Evil robot and mad scientist have both been done before in the series.
David's character is clearly the anchor of the prequel films; his whole story of becoming sentient and self-aware — and what comes with it — has not been done before in the series. Comparing the mad scientist idiot in Resurrection to David is simply disingenuous.
QuoteAnd yet, despite not being in a position to judge because you haven't read it, you are judging me all the same.
No, I judged the part I read and decided I didn't want to read anymore - I'm not judging you personally.
There's really no need to continually misrepresent what I'm saying.
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 08:26:57 PM
QuoteAlien is more effective than Covenant, IMO, but isn't as deep.
I'm curious as to what your definition of 'deep' is. Merely serving up a more complex (convoluted) plot doesn't make something deep. The fact that Alien is a monster movie at it's core hasn't prevented academics from writing hundreds if not thousands of pages of critical, theoretical analysis on the film. I can scarcely think of a movie so straightforward on the surface that is so densely packed with subtext. I highly doubt we'll see as much intellectual engagement with Covenant in 40 years outside of Youtube videos.
Yes, deep is definitely relative. I meant that Covenant strived for complexity and has a penchant for quoting lofty high art. It's more pretentious, but not necessarily as profound as it wants to be. Besides, by having the characters spoon feed us the ideas and their answers, it gives us less to talk about than Alien, Blade Runner, or Prometheus. O'Bannon called Alien a surrealist mystery. I think Covenant is a surrealist adventure movie with very little mystery left once it ends. At a glance, Alien has less obviousness depth, but for all of its chattiness and references to classical art, Covenant's isn't much deeper than Alien, if at all. Scholars will write about Covenant, too, but I doubt they will reappraise it as a lost masterpiece. At best, it will have a small following like Ridley's Legend and Fincher's Alien3. All of them are pop profound to varying degrees.
Why do we have to cite you like a term paper to 'prove' we read your online blog and disagreed with it? Would you like it in MLA format? Is there a dropbox we can submit our annotated posts to?
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 10:29:26 PM
Call's arc is in her changing attitude to Ripley.
Ash and Bishop- yep, no arc. We learn more about them, but they don't change over the course of the story.
Never mind! I retract my previous statement!
SM, Jonesy1974, you are correct. Ash and bishop did not have character arcs. I was not thinking about the term character arc correctly, and I stand corrected now. My bad! :-)
Hey SM! Quick question... I didn't stick around long enough to watch all the credits for covenant, but I was just thinking about it and got curious... did you have any sort of involvement in this film??
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on Jun 07, 2017, 11:56:25 PM
Why do we have to cite you like a term paper to 'prove' we read your online blog and disagreed with it? Would you like it in MLA format? Is there a dropbox we can submit our annotated posts to?
Here we go. ;D
QuotePoint in fact, I ... find myself standing within a curious minority as Covenant is encircled and set upon by just about everyone. This includes so-called fans of the series, who should know better but clearly don't. According to them, it's neither scary nor original enough to merit any sort of praise.
QuotePermit me the opportunity to say ... Let me be clear:
Quotethe comparison between it and Alien ... pointless.
QuoteIn regards to that so-called "same universe," critics of Alien: Covenant need to realize
QuoteI sense purists presume
QuotePrometheus ... superior ... As if.
QuoteI am confident that people will come to realize
QuoteOne needs only to watch ... any slasher film ... All the more ironic it sounds, as well, when fans ... clamor for more of the same, as purists who insist
QuoteI, for one, can celebrate the classic monsters
QuoteWhen fans attack
QuoteHow perplexing this is to me
QuoteSo people fussing about David being the so-called "father of the xenomorph" can chill out.
QuoteBefore people laps into apoplectic fits, maybe they should realize
QuotePurists cry foul
QuoteFurthermore, it's not about
QuoteWith Covenant, I've noticed its detractors declaring
Quotethese people ... fussing
QuoteThey actually want it to be hidden, or mysterious
QuoteBut people need to remember
QuoteThis is because Covenant is ... not a horror film.
QuoteIt is not that kind of film
Quoteif only people ... could change ... they might see it for what it is, rather than condemn it
QuoteIn regards to Covenant and the misplaced ire being directed at it from all sides, I feel as though it is being delivered by critics who have "closed [themselves] up."
Quotebonding with certain human characters ... is simply not the point ... why penalize the film for it?
QuoteTo hold Covenant accountable for failing to use death to make us care about the human cast would be to miss its true aim
QuoteThere's much to be gleaned if we let the scales fall from our eyes and stop trying to classify Covenant as a horror film ... and celebrate it for what it actually is.
Quoteadmit it: how many of you actually knew David was wrong when he quoted Ozymandias and said Byron wrote it? Furthermore, how many of you even knew he was quoting a poem at all? ... for those of you who say these things don't belong in an Alien film, you clearly weren't paying attention when you watched Alien or Aliens.
What the hell happened to this place
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 07, 2017, 07:11:21 PM
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 07, 2017, 07:09:46 PMSure it does.
In what way?
Still waiting for a reply to this.
Not being abusive, I'm just genuinely curious what you think is innovative about
Covenant, because I thought it was simply rehashing things that had already been done.
Quote from: acidreign on Jun 08, 2017, 09:49:16 AM
What the hell happened to this place
Disappointment.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 08, 2017, 12:18:46 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 10:29:26 PM
Call's arc is in her changing attitude to Ripley.
Ash and Bishop- yep, no arc. We learn more about them, but they don't change over the course of the story.
Never mind! I retract my previous statement!
SM, Jonesy1974, you are correct. Ash and bishop did not have character arcs. I was not thinking about the term character arc correctly, and I stand corrected now. My bad! :-)
Hey SM! Quick question... I didn't stick around long enough to watch all the credits for covenant, but I was just thinking about it and got curious... did you have any sort of involvement in this film??
I did stay for all the credits and didn't see nothing.
(That's a 'no'. :) )
Quote from: acidreign on Jun 08, 2017, 09:49:16 AM
What the hell happened to this place
Nick is smart wrote a "paper" on how Covenent is better than Blade Runner and nobody read it.
I only made 1.5 paragraphs with a couple of rapid finger flicks on the phone which I think is less than SM.
Quote from: acidreign on Jun 08, 2017, 09:49:16 AM
What the hell happened to this place
Right.... can we all get back on topic now? This is supposed to be a fan review board for covenant, whether good or bad. Not a review of some boy's blog entry about the movie.
Quote from: SM on Jun 08, 2017, 11:05:25 AM
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 08, 2017, 12:18:46 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 07, 2017, 10:29:26 PM
Call's arc is in her changing attitude to Ripley.
Ash and Bishop- yep, no arc. We learn more about them, but they don't change over the course of the story.
Never mind! I retract my previous statement!
SM, Jonesy1974, you are correct. Ash and bishop did not have character arcs. I was not thinking about the term character arc correctly, and I stand corrected now. My bad! :-)
Hey SM! Quick question... I didn't stick around long enough to watch all the credits for covenant, but I was just thinking about it and got curious... did you have any sort of involvement in this film??
I did stay for all the credits and didn't see nothing.
(That's a 'no'. :) )
Lol.
So you actually liked covenant, huh? I'm honestly surprised by that! I thought for sure you'd dislike it! What about the movie did you like?
One thing I've seen a lot of, which is weird to me, are people saying the hated the film, then after a second viewing they loved it. I sort of did the opposite. I walked out thinking it was good, but not great. In the poll, I was one of the many who rated this film as a 3. But after a few days of thinking about it more and more, I find myself disliking it more and more. If I could re-vote in this poll now I'd give it a 2 or a 1.
Have you read the novel yet? If so, did you like that more, less or about the same?
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 06, 2017, 06:48:06 PM
Here's my review of the film:
http://nicksmovieinsights.blogspot.com/2017/06/alien-covenant-review.html
Loved the movie. Hates gonna hate.
Great thank you!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.baltana.com%2Ffiles%2Fwallpapers-3%2FAlien-Covenant-HD-Wallpapers-11946.jpg&hash=d365ae3989ff3ec8d102f3209e6cf8138ea2c309)
Saw it again this week and enjoyed it much more than my first viewing.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F68.media.tumblr.com%2F21789d8c047a022d2a2e9d20662565ad%2Ftumblr_oiqjd7uOLy1qdhps7o1_r1_500.gif&hash=4cae134f6383b0a2255fbc8aacd4c52f90274242)
I didn't like the first act the first time, because I was too excited to discover the planet, the fate of Shaw and engineers!
Now I was able to watch and enjoy this first part at its true value, and I found it really excellent! Finally the crew of the Covenant is really great: Oram, Walter, Daniels, Faris, Karine and Tennessee are very good characters.
The initial sequence between David and Weyland is magnificent, and explains the strange behavior of the android in Prometheus.
The film starts in a morbid atmosphere with the death of the captain and settlers, very good idea.
Everything that brings the Covenant to land on Paradise is perfect!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alien-covenant.com%2Faliencovenant_uploads%2Fnc_%283%29.png&hash=50e39da36dbf616ff0f7c213aeb3eed20bb9fbef)
And the first act on Paradise is FANTASTIC, visually, may be the most beautiful episode of the franchise, the dark landscape of Milford Sound gives an oppressive atmosphere. A real sequence of exciting exploration, before the horror reaches its climax simultaneously with the births and massacres of neomorphs. I love the way David arrives.
(https://i0.wp.com/www.screenhall.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Untitled2.png)
The discovery of the sumptuous necropolis, wow. Then the famous scene of the flute, magnificent Fassbender. I love every moment in the temple, it lasts can be 25-30 minutes, but it is an artistic treat. What vision, what talent on the part of the artists. Decors are amazing and Dariusz Wolski's work is phenomenal, right?!
The theme of creation is admirably elaborated in Covenant.
(https://i0.wp.com/media2.slashfilm.com/slashfilm/wp/wp-content/images/Alien-Covenant-Trailer-Breakdown-50.jpg)
Unfortunately the film begins to get lost with some facilities. The end of Rosenthal is rather ridiculous. And once the Alien arrives, I got bored. Too fast, not frightening. The alien is beautiful, but very badly exploited.
A shame because the first two act of Covenant are perfect, the narration is superb!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alien-covenant.com%2Faliencovenant_uploads%2Fxrb_%2C285%2C292.png.pagespeed.ic.vbKrqe3ZZN.jpg&hash=f398e31d8aa1690072f5e2b4bd083aca341c1f64)
I understand why Prometheus fans don't like it, because it minimizes the role of Shaw and engineers (although these are everywhere in the film, everywhere!)
And I understand that Alien fans are disappointed, because the creature isn't the center of the movie. David is the heart of the film, it's the obvious link of the Prometheus-Covenant diptych.
But Covenant, despite a disappointing third part, is a f**king good movie. A majestic love letter to art!
My ranking changes
Alien > Aliens - Prometheus> Covenant> Alien 3> Alien Resurrection
Quote from: Protozoid on Jun 07, 2017, 11:35:49 PM
Quote from: Hudson on Jun 07, 2017, 08:26:57 PM
QuoteAlien is more effective than Covenant, IMO, but isn't as deep.
I'm curious as to what your definition of 'deep' is. Merely serving up a more complex (convoluted) plot doesn't make something deep. The fact that Alien is a monster movie at it's core hasn't prevented academics from writing hundreds if not thousands of pages of critical, theoretical analysis on the film. I can scarcely think of a movie so straightforward on the surface that is so densely packed with subtext. I highly doubt we'll see as much intellectual engagement with Covenant in 40 years outside of Youtube videos.
Yes, deep is definitely relative. I meant that Covenant strived for complexity and has a penchant for quoting lofty high art. It's more pretentious, but not necessarily as profound as it wants to be. Besides, by having the characters spoon feed us the ideas and their answers, it gives us less to talk about than Alien, Blade Runner, or Prometheus. O'Bannon called Alien a surrealist mystery. I think Covenant is a surrealist adventure movie with very little mystery left once it ends. At a glance, Alien has less obviousness depth, but for all of its chattiness and references to classical art, Covenant's isn't much deeper than Alien, if at all. Scholars will write about Covenant, too, but I doubt they will reappraise it as a lost masterpiece. At best, it will have a small following like Ridley's Legend and Fincher's Alien3. All of them are pop profound to varying degrees.
1979 Alien is like a painting, it evokes feel and thoughts even thought its all mostly visuals and feel. Its unbelievable how effective the movie still is, and its always fun to see it with people who have never seen any alien film before, and even though some are barely holding on during the extremely long buildup (which only Aliens replicated), once things start moving, its fun to see everyone sitting on the edge clenching their fists or the faces of terror when Dallas hits the vents (to me still the scariest scene in any movie ever)
Quote from: Stolen on Jun 08, 2017, 08:21:14 PM
Saw it again this week and enjoyed it much more than my first viewing.
But Covenant, despite a disappointing third part, is a f**king good movie. A majestic love letter to art!
My ranking changes
Alien > Aliens - Prometheus> Covenant> Alien 3> Alien Resurrection
I'm happy to see you enjoyed it more!
I feel this movie will gain more and more praise over time.
QuoteSo you actually liked covenant, huh? I'm honestly surprised by that! I thought for sure you'd dislike it! What about the movie did you like?
Pretty much everything, apart from the aforementioned twist that wasn't really 'cos it was pretty obvious, and the mean spirited ending.
The characters were a change from previous casts in that they were all friends rather than people who bickered and barely tolerated each other. Even Oram, who could've ended up being another Gorman, ended up being more interesting. It looked great, the story was interesting, if somewhat predictable in parts, the music used just enough Goldsmith and bits from Prometheus. I really can't find much to dislike about it.
Quote from: SM on Jun 08, 2017, 11:50:13 PM
QuoteSo you actually liked covenant, huh? I'm honestly surprised by that! I thought for sure you'd dislike it! What about the movie did you like?
Pretty much everything, apart from the aforementioned twist that wasn't really 'cos it was pretty obvious, and the mean spirited ending.
The characters were a change from previous casts in that they were all friends rather than people who bickered and barely tolerated each other. Even Oram, who could've ended up being another Gorman, ended up being more interesting. It looked great, the story was interesting, if somewhat predictable in parts, the music used just enough Goldsmith and bits from Prometheus. I really can't find much to dislike about it.
My biggest gripe is the pacing. It felt too rushed and/or choppy at some points.
I liked quick pacing. I didn't find it choppy like the second half of Prometheus.
It went from point A to B to C back to A, rather than A to B to A to B to A to B.
I'm glad you liked it SM!
I thought it added the right amount of unnerving ideas/concepts to make me feel that atmosphere that was so abundant in '79. Whilst opening up the scope of the alien as a creature.
You feel it fits well as a chapter between Prometheus, Alien and the other subsequent films?
I'm unsure about the deal with David creating the Aliens and how it will ultimately all fit together, but otherwise it all fits fairly well.
I'll probably nitpick the bejesus out of it when the blu ray comes out.
I'm hoping the Blu-ray with be chocked full of features, although I'd be happy even if it was just the film.
Frankly I'm happy this film exists after Prometheus. It's feeling more complete as a story.
I like the idea that the Engineers had somehow found a way to control consciousness, in a sense. For me that idea makes the alien all the more terrifying. Because it's not the outta shell that's disturbing its the origins of it's mind.
That which David was idly playing with.
I believe the first instance David discovers how the Engineers can manipulate organic matter and shape their technology around it, is when he observes the clear goo he touches in the hologram controls in the pyramid. There he sees the tiny electrical pulses within. As if it was almost sentient to some extent.
And in the wake of David's wrath and passion the Engineers are destroyed along with the mystery surrounding them. Thus leaving us (humans) alone with the monster.
Some complain the Producers have explained to much but it's not much more than what we already know.
Quote from: SM on Jun 08, 2017, 11:05:25 AM
I did stay for all the credits and didn't see nothing.
(That's a 'no'. :) )
SM, your use of the double negative had me going for a moment...until your parenthetical clarified things. ;D
Me, I stayed through the credits on second viewing too, but I was hoping for an ominous alien screech or other treat (a la The Phantom Menace's "Vader rasp"). Instead, I had the opportunity to talk to two sets of parents with their teenage kids being treated to an "R"-rated horror flick, much like my own father did for me when a new flick called "Alien" hit the screens in '79. Quite a satisfying way to bookend the new movie, really.
I stayed mainly for the music - but in this day and age you never can tell if there's going to be some credits Easter Egg (considering Cameron was doing that sort of thing 30 years ago :) ).
Quote from: SM on Jun 09, 2017, 02:04:49 AM
I stayed mainly for the music - but in this day and age you never can tell if there's going to be some credits Easter Egg (considering Cameron was doing that sort of thing 30 years ago :) ).
When the credits started rolling, I was enjoying the music... but then I got impatient and googled whether there was an end credit scene or not. Lol my wife was waiting for me so I opted to leave when I saw there wasn't one online.
I was the only one left in the theatre by the time the credits finished. ;D
Quote from: SM on Jun 09, 2017, 12:06:44 AM
I liked quick pacing. I didn't find it choppy like the second half of Prometheus.
It went from point A to B to C back to A, rather than A to B to A to B to A to B.
I was hoping for the slow burn of alien. This just didn't work for me. And the abrupt time jumps were distracting to me. One second the planet is 3 weeks away, and the next they're preparing to enter the atmosphere; that jump, and a few others were jarring, and I felt like there was plenty of room for better character development in there. I know aliens did a similar time jump, with gateway station then to the sulaco, but there was something about how this movie handled it that just didn't feel as seamless to me.
Quote from: SM on Jun 09, 2017, 02:11:29 AM
I was the only one left in the theatre by the time the credits finished. ;D
Over achiever! Lol jk
I found it nice they dispensed with the slow burn and just got on with it.
Quote from: Alien³ on Jun 09, 2017, 12:42:22 AM
I like the idea that the Engineers had somehow found a way to control consciousness, in a sense.
What do you mean by this?
Quote from: SM on Jun 09, 2017, 02:16:56 AM
I found it nice they dispensed with the slow burn and just got on with it.
I guess maybe my expectation was for the slow burn, and when the action ramped up it caught me off guard. Lol
I think reading some points about the novel and with a bit of a better edit I would move my vote out of "was just ok" to "liked it"
A fan edit would probably be quite good.
Quote from: Highland on Jun 09, 2017, 02:29:17 AM
I think reading some points about the novel and with a bit of a better edit I would move my vote out of "was just ok" to "liked it"
A fan edit would probably be quite good.
I'm intending to read the novel next. I haven't gotten around to it quite yet because I've been catching up on podcasts. Want to get caught up before "aliens minute" starts up this Sunday/Monday! :-)
Since "NickisSmart" has a kind of subtle agressive and vain tone that i dont like at all, not to mention he is misinterpreting what i have said to his convenience, i have decided to treat him as a troll from now on, that is ignoring him
Quote from: SM on Jun 09, 2017, 02:16:56 AM
I found it nice they dispensed with the slow burn and just got on with it.
I liked the fast pacing in the first hour, it was like Ridley saying "you all have seen this before, so lets get on with it as quick as possible" then David appears and the movie feels rushed, i can tell footage is missing, i will expand upon this later if i have the time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAQvkf27uGc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAQvkf27uGc)
This is the review I agree the most with.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2017, 02:19:08 AM
Quote from: Alien³ on Jun 09, 2017, 12:42:22 AM
I like the idea that the Engineers had somehow found a way to control consciousness, in a sense.
What do you mean by this?
In this shot you see the liquid reacts to David's touch, it contains small electrochemical pulses, much like what is observed in brain activity.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-vQxPJR-nHSw%2FUCOU9B9qp9I%2FAAAAAAAAd08%2F8TnO3t5jd3I%2Fs1600%2Fprometheus-movie-2012-goo-alien.jpg&hash=f89542a69dbca851d793409dfea13b27c38d6dee)
Although I think the word control was wrong to use.
Quote from: SM on Jun 09, 2017, 02:16:56 AMI found it nice they dispensed with the slow burn and just got on with it.
I liked that it started that way, but it got tiresome towards the end. The last act aboard the Covenant in particular felt threadbare because it was so brief.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 09, 2017, 07:52:35 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 09, 2017, 02:16:56 AMI found it nice they dispensed with the slow burn and just got on with it.
I liked that it started that way, but it got tiresome towards the end. The last act aboard the Covenant in particular felt threadbare because it was so brief.
I don't know if you saw the video by nerdwriter on you tube about how if you re-arrange the movie passengers , you get a more interesting movie (worth a watch, the nerdwriter video that is).
That's how I feel about covenant. It's not that I totally hate all the things that happened, I just feel like they've been laid out in the wrong way. You could easily take the Neomorphs, Alien, Oram death, Walter fight, End sequence, David reveal and re-arrange the same pieces in a better way.
Quote from: Alien³ on Jun 09, 2017, 07:47:38 AM
I like the idea that the Engineers had somehow found a way to control consciousness, in a sense.
In this shot you see the liquid reacts to David's touch, it contains small electrochemical pulses, much like what is observed in brain activity.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-vQxPJR-nHSw%2FUCOU9B9qp9I%2FAAAAAAAAd08%2F8TnO3t5jd3I%2Fs1600%2Fprometheus-movie-2012-goo-alien.jpg&hash=f89542a69dbca851d793409dfea13b27c38d6dee)
Although I think the word control was wrong to use.
I always thought that was connected with whatever had killed the Engineers.. something trying to get in the room after the Engineers ran in there..
Quote from: D88M on Jun 09, 2017, 04:56:03 AM
Since "NickisSmart" has a kind of subtle agressive and vain tone that i dont like at all, not to mention he is misinterpreting what i have said to his convenience, i have decided to treat him as a troll from now on, that is ignoring him
Quote from: SM on Jun 09, 2017, 02:16:56 AM
I found it nice they dispensed with the slow burn and just got on with it.
I liked the fast pacing in the first hour, it was like Ridley saying "you all have seen this before, so lets get on with it as quick as possible" then David appears and the movie feels rushed, i can tell footage is missing, i will expand upon this later if i have the time
Wise descision! I'm glad to see the thread is getting back on track too! :-)
Quote from: Alien³ on Jun 09, 2017, 07:47:38 AM
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 09, 2017, 02:19:08 AM
Quote from: Alien³ on Jun 09, 2017, 12:42:22 AM
I like the idea that the Engineers had somehow found a way to control consciousness, in a sense.
What do you mean by this?
In this shot you see the liquid reacts to David's touch, it contains small electrochemical pulses, much like what is observed in brain activity.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-vQxPJR-nHSw%2FUCOU9B9qp9I%2FAAAAAAAAd08%2F8TnO3t5jd3I%2Fs1600%2Fprometheus-movie-2012-goo-alien.jpg&hash=f89542a69dbca851d793409dfea13b27c38d6dee)
Although I think the word control was wrong to use.
Oh ok! Gotcha! Yea the "control" part confused me lol
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 09, 2017, 07:52:35 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 09, 2017, 02:16:56 AMI found it nice they dispensed with the slow burn and just got on with it.
I liked that it started that way, but it got tiresome towards the end. The last act aboard the Covenant in particular felt threadbare because it was so brief.
Oh my god! Yes! That last action sequence felt way too rushed! And it started so abruptly, that it lost all the dread and suspense... to me anyway...
It's the old false ending, real ending trick. You can't have too much time between them, and you have to juggle the Lope being impregnated and the David/ Walter switcheroo. I'd have to watch it again to properly judge, but it didn't feel 'wrong' the first time.
It felt wrong to me. Alien and aliens pulled it off well; but I think covenant was trying to juggle too much in this case and it felt rushed as a result...
Here's the Plot for Prequel Novel 'Alien: Covenant – Origins'
Read here:
http://www.awdnews.com/society/here%E2%80%99s-the-plot-for-prequel-novel-%E2%80%98alien-covenant-%E2%80%93-origins%E2%80%99
Quote from: SM on Jun 09, 2017, 07:54:25 PM
It's the old false ending, real ending trick. You can't have too much time between them, and you have to juggle the Lope being impregnated and the David/ Walter switcheroo. I'd have to watch it again to properly judge, but it didn't feel 'wrong' the first time.
Personally I didn't like the double dip on the Xeno. It felt like hey I'm back, twice!
I would have preferred Lope been killed in some other way ( more Neomorphs) and impregnated Oram to make it back to the covenant only for the burst to happen there old school style then beef up the spooky corridor stuff.
Quote from: Highland on Jun 10, 2017, 12:06:15 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 09, 2017, 07:54:25 PM
It's the old false ending, real ending trick. You can't have too much time between them, and you have to juggle the Lope being impregnated and the David/ Walter switcheroo. I'd have to watch it again to properly judge, but it didn't feel 'wrong' the first time.
Personally I didn't like the double dip on the Xeno. It felt like hey I'm back, twice!
I would have preferred Lope been killed in some other way ( more Neomorphs) and impregnated Oram to make it back to the covenant only for the burst to happen there old school style then beef up the spooky corridor stuff.
Or Lope is killed by the acid, they kill the Oram xeno like in the film, and then cut straight to everyone going to sleep.
Quote from: SM on Jun 09, 2017, 07:54:25 PM
It's the old false ending, real ending trick. You can't have too much time between them, and you have to juggle the Lope being impregnated and the David/ Walter switcheroo. I'd have to watch it again to properly judge, but it didn't feel 'wrong' the first time.
Never felt wrong to me to. Fast paced, sure.
Quote from: KiramidHead on Jun 10, 2017, 01:00:07 AM
Quote from: Highland on Jun 10, 2017, 12:06:15 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 09, 2017, 07:54:25 PM
It's the old false ending, real ending trick. You can't have too much time between them, and you have to juggle the Lope being impregnated and the David/ Walter switcheroo. I'd have to watch it again to properly judge, but it didn't feel 'wrong' the first time.
Personally I didn't like the double dip on the Xeno. It felt like hey I'm back, twice!
I would have preferred Lope been killed in some other way ( more Neomorphs) and impregnated Oram to make it back to the covenant only for the burst to happen there old school style then beef up the spooky corridor stuff.
Or Lope is killed by the acid, they kill the Oram xeno like in the film, and then cut straight to everyone going to sleep.
Yeah, one other thing that he could have done after all the "hey it's me David" shots is to just leave it like that. Walter/David sends the message back to earth then something subtle finishes the movie. Although I admit that doesn't scream "wait for the next one!" as much as the current ending, it does give it a more Blade Runner esk finish.
Honestly, that whole 'cliff-hanger ending' thing is starting to bug me too. I always felt satisfied with the ending of any and every alien movie before. It was a self contained story, with closure. Prometheus and covenant both ended on cliff hangers... I don't want to wait for the next damn movie to find out what happens next! This isn't lord of the rings or the hobbit! Lol
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 10, 2017, 03:06:25 AM
Honestly, that whole 'cliff-hanger ending' thing is starting to bug me too. I always felt satisfied with the ending of any and every alien movie before. It was a self contained story, with closure. Prometheus and covenant both ended on cliff hangers... I don't want to wait for the next damn movie to find out what happens next! This isn't lord of the rings or the hobbit! Lol
Considering he's likely to change his mind at any given moment, I'm not viewing these as a trilogy anyway, more like bite sized story's in the Alien Universe. I mean literally this whole movie exists because of a well timed neutrino burst rather than genuinely following on from Prometheus.
It's not the cliffhanger so much - the stories have proper endings (more or less) - it's the fact that David 'won'.
Quote from: SM on Jun 10, 2017, 05:46:09 AM
It's not the cliffhanger so much - the stories have proper endings (more or less) - it's the fact that David 'won'.
Nah not for me... I don't mind the fact that David won. I'm bugged by the fact that clearly the story continues. And in Prometheus, David didn't exactly win, nor did Shaw, it just ended with them heading out deeper into space to find the answers they were looking for. You can watch any of the other films and feel satisfied with the ending where it left off, but the prequels stop open ended. What if Ridley never gets a chance to make another film? It'd be like watching half of a movie... you never see the ending, whether the good guys wins or the bad guy wins...
Simply by surviving and the Engineer and trilobite dying mean Shaw and David 'win' Prometheus. In Covenant they're completely at David's mercy.
The fact that so many want to see what happens next is a good sign.
Covenant doesn't nessesarily need a sequel. That said, I'd welcome one.
I wanted closure, and both movies left me hanging. Different strokes...
I agree that the cliffhangers are a bad idea. It will also make people less inclined to see the next movie, because they suspect of won't be a complete story, either. I know Marvel gets away with it, but IMO, that kind of serialized storytelling at that level of cost cannot will leave you with long series that eventually end because their popularity and profitability ended. And the story didn't. So you have long, endless, ultimately pointless series made from many moving parts that do not satisfy either separately or as a whole. It isn't just weak storytelling. It isn't just a ripoff. All series end when the profit stops. You never know where that will be, so you have to always to tell a complete story, with an aim towards building towards a greater whole eventually. The Alien movies always sabotaged themselves by not building on each other. Now the prequels are even worse, because they don't work self-contained or build towards anything larger. Its a serious problem. This constant franchise building combined with shifting plans is self sabotage. They need to either have the integrity to finish a series the way it was planned, or make each movie work as a standalone film entirely. This middle ground is undermining a lot of hard work on the part of the creative team. Fox effed this up and wasted a lot of good faith. The next one needs to have to more integrity. Either finish the Prometheus story as originally planned or tell a standalone story with a satisfying conclusion.
To be fair, the marvel movies play out a lot like the comics... it's never really over. But even though they still have a larger story to tell, they still have a satisfying ending rather than a cliff hanger every time. And most of the time, those cliff hangers are hinting at the next story to tell, not really part of the main story that was told.
Which Marvel movies are cliffhangers? They all resolve themselves by the end.
Covenant is more Empire Strikes Back where everything looks bad for the good guys. They're frozen for one. Which is okay if there is a satisfying conclusion to the David trilogy.
Well, they all kind of have pseudo cliff hangers, depending on how you look at it... for a couple of examples:
Civil war was kind of a cliff hanger... but at the same time it was setting up for the next movie, so it ended precisely where it needed to (although, I was still a little dissatisfied with this one too).
guardians of the galaxy ended with the unresolved issue of peter's heritage being half human half something else powerful. That's not really important for wrapping up that movie's story, and plays into its sequel setup too
They all resolve the stories they're focused on... but there's the grander story everything is leading up to. The different infinity stones are the focus of the respective movies they were featured in, but thanos is behind most of the conflicts; the puppet master ultimately trying to get his hands on the stones. Eventually they're all going to crossover to finish that grander story.
THAT is world building and it works in a very effective way. Each of the movies are connected and telling a grander story. Eventually that grander story will conclude, but you can still watch them solo and feel satisfied with the smaller story being told in that one movie.
What covenant did, was a total setup for the next movie, but unlike the marvel movies it only has one story tier, and the movie didn't wrap up in a satisfying way (to me), so it had to end on a cliff hanger to leave room for that next planned sequel...
Great ending... wouldn't call it a cliffhanger though. We already know David told Daniels he was going to do to her what he did to Shaw and none of these people are going to survive to tell their story. We can deduce from David's embryos and the 2,000 some odd colonists that they will somehow lead to the eggs in the original derelict. It leaves plenty on the table for a sequel but at the same time it doesn't require one, either.
Quote from: Predaker on Jun 11, 2017, 03:12:29 AM
Great ending... wouldn't call it a cliffhanger though. We already know David told Daniels he was going to do to her what he did to Shaw and none of these people are going to survive to tell their story. We can deduce from David's embryos and the 2,000 some odd colonists that they will somehow lead to the eggs in the original derelict. It leaves plenty on the table for a sequel but at the same time it doesn't require one, either.
And none of this works for me... lol
I enjoyed the ending, didnt mind the cliffhanger at all.
Ok hypothetical question...
I am in NO WAY wishing this upon Ridley Scott, but if he were to pass away before the next movie gets made, and no other director steps in to make another film in the series, would you be satisfied with covenant being the last film made?
As far as the prequel trilogy goes I wouldn't have a problem with it being the final movie in this particular story arc, but I wouldn't want it to be the final film in the overall series.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 11, 2017, 05:24:33 AM
Ok hypothetical question...
I am in NO WAY wishing this upon Ridley Scott, but if he were to pass away before the next movie gets made, and no other director steps in to make another film in the series, would you be satisfied with covenant being the last film made?
Hell, no. Covenant left a sour taste in my mouth. That's a very upsetting way to end the series. I want to see the end of the Prometheus story arc and then they should mothball the seres for good.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 11, 2017, 05:24:33 AM
Ok hypothetical question...
I am in NO WAY wishing this upon Ridley Scott, but if he were to pass away before the next movie gets made, and no other director steps in to make another film in the series, would you be satisfied with covenant being the last film made?
Yes, but why does Ridley have to die in this hypothetical?
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 11, 2017, 03:42:25 AM
Quote from: Predaker on Jun 11, 2017, 03:12:29 AM
Great ending... wouldn't call it a cliffhanger though. We already know David told Daniels he was going to do to her what he did to Shaw and none of these people are going to survive to tell their story. We can deduce from David's embryos and the 2,000 some odd colonists that they will somehow lead to the eggs in the original derelict. It leaves plenty on the table for a sequel but at the same time it doesn't require one, either.
And none of this works for me... lol
With such a mindset, I have a feeling, it'd be impossible to please you :<
Salt the fries - No it wouldn't be impossible to please me. I'm just saying, I wasn't satisfied with this movie's ending or the direction the prequels are heading. The Prometheus/covenant story arc just isn't working for me. On the flip side, when I first heard the premise/synopsis for Alien: Isolation and Alien: Out of the Shadows, I was HIGHLY skeptical that either one would be good. I rolled my eyes at the thought of inserting ripley or her daughter into another story between alien and aliens. And both times I was pleasantly surprised and loved both! So I can be pleased, and there is still a story to be told in the alien series. These prequels just aren't it for me.
Predaker - Ridley doesn't have to die, it's just a hypothetical. I figured the man won't give up on the series (which I admire), so that'd be the only thing to stop the series right here. Maybe a bit extreme. If so I apologize.
Quote from: Predaker on Jun 11, 2017, 03:12:29 AM
Great ending... wouldn't call it a cliffhanger though. We already know David told Daniels he was going to do to her what he did to Shaw and none of these people are going to survive to tell their story. We can deduce from David's embryos and the 2,000 some odd colonists that they will somehow lead to the eggs in the original derelict. It leaves plenty on the table for a sequel but at the same time it doesn't require one, either.
Agreed. It's great dark ending, should it end like that you can join the dots. Equally it's open enough to lead to another film.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 11, 2017, 05:24:33 AM
Ok hypothetical question...
I am in NO WAY wishing this upon Ridley Scott, but if he were to pass away before the next movie gets made, and no other director steps in to make another film in the series, would you be satisfied with covenant being the last film made?
In the prequel series? Absolutely. They belong to Scott alone. I would be fine with them making a sequel to Resurrection though.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 11, 2017, 05:24:33 AM
would you be satisfied with covenant being the last film made?
Considering that the next one could make things worse, yes maybe it would be better to leave it alone. But even without Ridley Fox could put someone else to finish the prequel series if they wanted to.
Quote from: SM on Jun 11, 2017, 01:21:27 AMWhich Marvel movies are cliffhangers? They all resolve themselves by the end.
Winter Soldier.
"Let's go find the Winter Soldier!"
"Yeah!"
*end*
Covenant's ending was OK, except for the hysterically obvious "twist".
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 11, 2017, 05:24:33 AM
Ok hypothetical question...
I am in NO WAY wishing this upon Ridley Scott, but if he were to pass away before the next movie gets made, and no other director steps in to make another film in the series, would you be satisfied with covenant being the last film made?
I mean there are plenty of ways this is the likely outcome without anything happening to Scott.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 12, 2017, 08:47:23 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 11, 2017, 01:21:27 AMWhich Marvel movies are cliffhangers? They all resolve themselves by the end.
Winter Soldier.
"Let's go find the Winter Soldier!"
"Yeah!"
*end*
Covenant's ending was OK, except for the hysterically obvious "twist".
Winter Soldier ended with the Hydra plot defeated. Just because there's stuff to spin off into a sequel and left the villain alive isn't a cliffhanger anymore than Star Wars is.
And just because the main threat was defeated doesn't mean the film couldn't still have a cliffhanger. Winter Soldier literally stopped in the middle of a scene.
Not to mention practically every Marvel film has had a cliffhanger scene after the credits.
And the end of Empire Strikes Back is definitely a cliffhanger. Hans fate is hanging in the balance.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 12, 2017, 09:12:48 PM
And just because the main threat was defeated doesn't mean the film couldn't still have a cliffhanger. Winter Soldier literally stopped in the middle of a scene.
Not to mention practically every Marvel film has had a cliffhanger scene after the credits.
And the end of Empire Strikes Back is definitely a cliffhanger. Hans fate is hanging in the balance.
I agree with HuDa on this. The primary plot may have been wrapped up, but there are many sub-plots and the grander-plot that are left open as a bit of a cliff hanger...
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 12, 2017, 09:23:49 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 12, 2017, 09:12:48 PM
And just because the main threat was defeated doesn't mean the film couldn't still have a cliffhanger. Winter Soldier literally stopped in the middle of a scene.
Not to mention practically every Marvel film has had a cliffhanger scene after the credits.
And the end of Empire Strikes Back is definitely a cliffhanger. Hans fate is hanging in the balance.
I agree with HuDa on this. The primary plot may have been wrapped up, but there are many sub-plots and the grander-plot that are left open as a bit of a cliff hanger...
Empire is the only cliffhanger in the original six, until Force Awakens, which I thought was very weak.
What does Covenant wrap up? I don't think it offers much closure. If anything, they play up the unresolved threats and terror.
That's what I'm saying! It ended on a cliff hanger and now we're all left waiting on the sequel to find out what happens next!
I want to love this movie.
Please talk me into it.
Just watch it until David says "Who's in charge here?"
That's when the quality drops like a literal anchor.
I'm okay with cliffhangers, as long as they know where they're gonna go with them. With Prometheus, they clearly didn't (or just changed it). I'm reminded of Annie Wilkes in 'Misery' railing about an unsatisfactory conclusion to a hero-drives-off-cliff cliffhanger in an old movie serial:
"He NEVER jumped out of the cockadoodie car!!!" :D
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jun 12, 2017, 09:49:49 PM
Just watch it until David says "Who's in charge here?"
That's when the quality drops like a literal anchor.
His intro was a pretty sad case of BMFism. I actually am most interested in David's scenes, however.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 12, 2017, 09:12:48 PM
And just because the main threat was defeated doesn't mean the film couldn't still have a cliffhanger. Winter Soldier literally stopped in the middle of a scene.
Not to mention practically every Marvel film has had a cliffhanger scene after the credits.
And the end of Empire Strikes Back is definitely a cliffhanger. Hans fate is hanging in the balance.
Teases for future films aren't cliffhangers.
And I was talking about Star Wars, not Empire.
But you knew that.
Quote from: Protozoid on Jun 12, 2017, 09:46:54 PM
I want to love this movie.
Please talk me into it.
I would talk you into it, but I need to be talked into it first. Lol
Depends on what issues you have with it.
Quote from: Protozoid on Jun 12, 2017, 09:46:54 PM
I want to love this movie.
Please talk me into it.
Just see it as a dark fantasy film, not Gothic Horror in the sense that Alien was. Different movies, to be appreciated for different reasons.
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jun 12, 2017, 10:57:39 PM
Quote from: Protozoid on Jun 12, 2017, 09:46:54 PM
I want to love this movie.
Please talk me into it.
Just see it as a dark fantasy film, not Gothic Horror in the sense that Alien was. Different movies, to be appreciated for different reasons.
It does remind me more of Legend than anything else in Scott's filmography. I can take Legend for what it is, and I even think of Prometheus as a fairy tale kind of story. But what exactly does the half full part of the cup consist of? What was the point of this episode? What will people praise about it in years to come?
Quote from: SM on Jun 12, 2017, 10:35:28 PM
Depends on what issues you have with it.
I think it'll be what ever gets added back in, if an extended cut releases, that will convince me. The story definitely isn't my favorite, but I'm unable to fully decide on that until I see for sure where the story is heading. My biggest issues with the movie are the pacing and the ending. The ending is just frustrating because it forces us to wait for the sequel, but it's not a "deal breaker" for me. The deal breaker, for me, is primarily the pacing, and adding in some of the deleted scenes might help in this respect. There are other things I had issues with too, but again, the pacing is what I disliked most. Thematically, it didn't feel like 'alien,' but neither did Prometheus so I can ultimately live with that.
But to be honest, I think I would have liked this movie far better if Ridley scott left the alien out, and just stuck with the neomorphs, and/or something else reminiscent of the alien. Heck, I would have like Prometheus better if covenant had a little more distance from 'alien' too! I understand that these aliens weren't supposed to be exactly the same iteration that appears in the original trilogy, and I understand that the novel says David found the alien left behind by the engineers indicating that he didn't create them from scratch. But it's still essentially the alien; it's too similar whereas the neomorphs were plenty different. Whether the inclusion of the alien works for me or not, will ultimately depend on how the sequel handles the alien going forward... which goes back to the frustration I had with the ending.
Other, more minor, issues aside. It really was the pacing for me. Every other film took its time to build up the suspense, including 'aliens,' but this just felt rushed and impatient.
People whined about no Aliens the first time. There would've been theatres burned down if he left them out again.
Quote from: SM on Jun 13, 2017, 12:49:41 AM
People whined about no Aliens the first time. There would've been theatres burned down if he left them out again.
Lol. And that's the ironic part of all this. The same fans who complained about the lack of aliens in Prometheus are the same ones complaining about adding the aliens in to covenant. I admit, I'm guilty; I was one of those fans. And I regret having that opinion about Prometheus now. Lol
And I don't blame Ridley for adding the alien back in either...
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 13, 2017, 12:52:57 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 13, 2017, 12:49:41 AM
People whined about no Aliens the first time. There would've been theatres burned down if he left them out again.
Lol. And that's the ironic part of all this. The same fans who complained about the lack of aliens in Prometheus are the same ones complaining about adding the aliens in to covenant. I admit, I'm guilty; I was one of those fans. And I regret having that opinion about Prometheus now. Lol
And I don't blame Ridley for adding the alien back in either...
I liked the aliens in Covenant, though I really dug the neomorphs. Really creepy in the film. Up there with the queen as far as new additions go.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 12, 2017, 09:38:15 PM
That's what I'm saying! It ended on a cliff hanger and now we're all left waiting on the sequel to find out what happens next!
There's always been an open ending to these films: Ripley in her escape pod in Alien, Ripley, Hicks, Bishop and Newt in Aliens and the prisoners being escorted of Fury 161. It's a trademark of this series.
None of those are cliff hanger endings. In all of them the threat is defeated and the heroes head off home.
Yeah, as SiL said, they're open endings, but they're not cliffhangers. They've survived and they're safe.
Covenant literally ends with the survivors in the shit.
If Aliens had ended by actually showing you the egg on board that kills everybody in the third film, then that would be comparable.
Quote from: Solid_Snake on Jun 14, 2017, 09:55:46 PM
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 12, 2017, 09:38:15 PM
That's what I'm saying! It ended on a cliff hanger and now we're all left waiting on the sequel to find out what happens next!
There's always been an open ending to these films: Ripley in her escape pod in Alien, Ripley, Hicks, Bishop and Newt in Aliens and the prisoners being escorted of Fury 161. It's a trademark of this series.
It's never been a trademark of the series for the films to end like this... Covenant and Prometheus both end in such a way that we have to wait for the sequel to find out what happens to the hero(es). For alien through resurrection, You can stop watching the series after any one film and be happy with it as an ending to the overall story. But Prometheus leaves us wondering what Shaw and David will find as they continue on in their journey, and covenant leaves us wondering what's David going to do with the colonists/embryos on board the ship and what's going to happen to Daniels/Tennessee. It literally forces a sequel to be necessary to continue/complete the story arc. In some film series that works, because it was the plan all along, but this feels more like they're making it up as they go...
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 14, 2017, 10:01:56 PM
Yeah, as SiL said, they're open endings, but they're not cliffhangers. They've survived and they're safe.
Covenant literally ends with the survivors in the shit.
If Aliens had ended by actually showing you the egg on board that kills everybody in the third film, then that would be comparable.
I don't see it a cliffhanger. More like a grim ending.
I thought it was pretty bold of Ridley to leave the film on such a downbeat note. The first time I saw it some of the audience members seemed bothered by it.
It's a dark conclusion - like The Omen, in fact like a lot of 1970s horrors and thrillers. Nice to see a return to it.
I have no problem with a dark ending. I loved alien 3's ending, and that had a dark element. I just don't like sequel baiting....
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 15, 2017, 02:20:25 AM
It literally forces a sequel to be necessary to continue/complete the story arc. In some film series that works, because it was the plan all along, but this feels more like they're making it up as they go...
This kind of reminds me of the Resident Evil films, haha. At least Ridley Scott is not completely retconning his cliffhangers by the time the next installment comes al... oh, wait. :P
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 15, 2017, 01:32:09 PM
I have no problem with a dark ending. I loved alien 3's ending, and that had a dark element. I just don't like sequel baiting....
Prometheus was the ultimate sequel bait. It raised so many questions, but didn't answer any of them. So I'm glad they took a 180 with AC, where everything seems so simple and obvious, at least on the face of it.
Quote from: Butterfly on Jun 15, 2017, 05:13:35 PM
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 15, 2017, 02:20:25 AM
It literally forces a sequel to be necessary to continue/complete the story arc. In some film series that works, because it was the plan all along, but this feels more like they're making it up as they go...
This kind of reminds me of the Resident Evil films, haha. At least Ridley Scott is not completely retconning his cliffhangers by the time the next installment comes al... oh, wait. :P
Lol. I know right?
Quote from: echobbase79 on Jun 15, 2017, 05:17:33 AM
I thought it was pretty bold of Ridley to leave the film on such a downbeat note. The first time I saw it some of the audience members seemed bothered by it.
I really liked the dark ending myself. I love it when the characters are put through the ringer like that.
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 13, 2017, 12:52:57 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 13, 2017, 12:49:41 AM
People whined about no Aliens the first time. There would've been theatres burned down if he left them out again.
Lol. And that's the ironic part of all this. The same fans who complained about the lack of aliens in Prometheus are the same ones complaining about adding the aliens in to covenant. I admit, I'm guilty; I was one of those fans. And I regret having that opinion about Prometheus now. Lol
And I don't blame Ridley for adding the alien back in either...
Don't feel bad.
Including the Alien certainly doesn't mean that Scott should kill off Shaw, kill of all Space Jockeys and turning David in to a super villain.
It's still the director, the writer and the studio to blame for this mess. No one else.
Quote from: stroggificated on Jun 16, 2017, 01:14:43 PM
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 13, 2017, 12:52:57 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 13, 2017, 12:49:41 AM
People whined about no Aliens the first time. There would've been theatres burned down if he left them out again.
Lol. And that's the ironic part of all this. The same fans who complained about the lack of aliens in Prometheus are the same ones complaining about adding the aliens in to covenant. I admit, I'm guilty; I was one of those fans. And I regret having that opinion about Prometheus now. Lol
And I don't blame Ridley for adding the alien back in either...
Don't feel bad.
Including the Alien certainly doesn't mean that Scott should kill off Shaw, kill of all Space Jockeys and turning David in to a super villain.
It's still the director, the writer and the studio to blame for this mess. No one else.
Credit rather than blame for the majority of us.
;D
Quote from: stroggificated on Jun 16, 2017, 01:14:43 PM
Quote from: Engineer on Jun 13, 2017, 12:52:57 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 13, 2017, 12:49:41 AM
People whined about no Aliens the first time. There would've been theatres burned down if he left them out again.
Lol. And that's the ironic part of all this. The same fans who complained about the lack of aliens in Prometheus are the same ones complaining about adding the aliens in to covenant. I admit, I'm guilty; I was one of those fans. And I regret having that opinion about Prometheus now. Lol
And I don't blame Ridley for adding the alien back in either...
Don't feel bad.
Including the Alien certainly doesn't mean that Scott should kill off Shaw, kill of all Space Jockeys and turning David in to a super villain.
It's still the director, the writer and the studio to blame for this mess. No one else.
Doesn't mean you don't like the direction it's headed that it's a bad film at all.
"Good" or "bad" is a subjective term. It's strictly the opinion of an individual. There are things I think are certainly good about the film, but as a whole, the film has more "bad" in it in my opinion. But I do realize my opinion is one not shared by the majority, it would seem.
:-)
First time poster, so sorry if I'm repeating anything that has been said or theorized here. Not taking any credit for ideas, just writing what's on my head.
Watched it a month ago or so. Then re-watched Alien, Aliens and Prometheus. I don't think people should've taken this as another "bug hunt" or a claustrophobic escape attempt. Scott clearly wanted to explore the engineers and David and I thought the Protomorphs at the end were unnecessary. I don't know if he was just sulking for the fans to show the creature again but it did little for the movie. I think it would've been much better if for instance David had planted eggs in the Covenant, ready for the sleeping voyagers.. Or just show a little glimpse of the big guy at the end going wild at the ship while David runs things. Something like that. Now it felt so unattached with the rest of the movie, trying to deal with the alien problem on the ship.
David is the strong point now and really is the new Ripley in a sense that he's the character I'm waiting to see. While Tennessee and Daniels were fine, the other cast was so expendable.. and dumb. I can understand chaotic moments, but when a captain sees an android talking to an white alien and yet decides to follow David to his lair... Too dumb..
The movie plot has a lot of similarities with the first movie (signal from an unknown planet, bumping into a hostile life form, trying to deal with that etc.). That didn't bother me, since the David stuff was very good in the movie. I really think that the scenes where he shows his drawings and we see what he has done to Shaw's body really goes up there with anything we have seen in Alien movies regarding creepiness. The modified face.. opened up body.. he's taken her reproductive organs.. really creepy stuff. Not so much horror, and in that regards the movie doesn't hold up. I thought it was a good movie still. What stopped it being a great one was the rushed pace of the ending sequences, still some unanswered questions and the lack of engineers. What I liked though was that there's a possibility that Weyland-Yutani is helping David to perfect his creature.. That would also kind of explain how they would know about the signal in LV-426 among other things..
BTW I like the fact how all of the androids in these movies admire the Xenomorph. Ash and David obviously but even Bishop admired the creature when he was studying the facehuggers, even though he has no intentions of keeping them alive. I think that's just an interesting fact.
Let's see how Ridley sets up the next one. Hopefully more of the mystique and creepy stuff and less aliens running in the clear daylight. I'd also like to see the creature given some mystique and smoothness back. Aliens and it's rampaging and aggressive Xenos worked because of the setting and the circumstances but I really want to see the Xenomorph stalking in the dark and playing with it's pray, slowly moving towards them. Covenant was 7/10 for me.
Here's my 2 cents.
It was OK I guess...
The movie didn't really have any tension, aside from the neo birth scenes. When David arrives the movie starts to slow down and I had the feeling I was watching an episode of a HBO series about Prometheus. The movie has too much Prometheus blood imo, and not enough Alien.
Spoiler
The good:
- Throat / Backburster scenes are great
- Character building was a bit better
- I like the Neomorphs design
- Tennessee is likable lol
- Music is very eerie, Boards of Canada style, kinda dig it
- Shaw's autopsy, she was so wrong for the last time. :P
- Kinda liked the death of the Xeno's... :P
- Neomorph and David was a strong scene
The bad:
- CGI could have been better
- No tension or build up to tension. Last 30 min your basically just sitting on yer ass feeling noting about the movie at all
- David's character is kinda ruined... he was the best thing about Prometheus. Now he's just annoying.
- Oram looking in the egg... kinda hoped he would just go Ripley on the eggs, blowing them up and then get hugged by a rogue facehugger. Would have made more sense imo.
- Why did we need to see the face of that woman floating the water 3 fcking times...
- The many times visiting the hideout/Xenolab.
- Full view of the Xeno removed the tension. I don't want to see that fcker in full view, it's not scary that way.
- Weird xeno vision was a bit forced...
- The ending is predicatable and stupid (David's reveal)
I didn't have problems with the airlock scene. Xeno's design is fine, just a bit too much on screen. And the life cycle seems fine to me. The guy had a hugger on the face, and the hugger folded when they took it off...ergo...egg layed. Regarding the birth of the second: Mother warned there was a Xeno in medlab, but how much time had passed before she gave out that warning. Remember, she was taken offline because she wasn't functioning proper due to the descent.
Yeah... ZERO TENSION. My ass was hurting during the last 30 minutes because I was bored out of my f**king mind. Someone had said it was FURY ROAD intense - not even close. Not at all. Fury Road's intensity was like the backburster scene, but dialed up and extended for a long time.
David was so suave and cool in Prometheus. Was engaging at all times. In Covenant? "WHOOOOO'S IN CHAWGE HEE-YA?"
BEEEEEP! WRONG ANSWER!
Whoever wrote that... doesn't understand David.
The movie was never boring to me, both times I saw it in the theatre. It didn't feel like 2 hours at all.
Could have been better, as there are major problems with the story. That is, they crammed too much content, leading to poor character development and lack of suspense. I think the reason is that they wanted to bring back elements from the first two movies (to ensure high box office returns using what worked in the past) plus bring in more weighty material, and the result is dreary.
I was dissatisfied with AC. It was an ok movie. Funnily I found myself watching the 1995 Peter Weller movie, "Screamers" later that night on TV. It felt the same standard of film. You expect more from something with a 100m budget, from a iconic movie series with the original director at the helm.
I can't help but to think this prequel series would've been so much more interesting and not such a off-shoot tangent if Cameron had have been in the writing process and the director's chair. It's hypothetical because he is/has been busy with the Avatar films. But I would've much rather have seen the vision from a self admitted fan like Cameron, than a 79 year old director who seems completely detached from everything that came after "Alien".
Again, it's hypothetical - but I think we would've got something more down the (fandom) line of Space Jockey/Xenomorph planet which I would much rather have preferred. I remember him saying of Prometheus (paraphrase) - "I enjoyed it, but it's not how I would've done things".
The Xenomorph being something created in a Frankenstein-like laboratory, really grinds my gears.
We could also get self admitted fans like Whedon, Anderson and the Strauses.
Quote from: SM on Jul 13, 2017, 12:00:39 AM
We could also get self admitted fans like Whedon, Anderson and the Strauses.
Never again.... please....
I'd be down for Whedon again.
Those other dorks can kick rocks.
I'd go for a Pete Travis directed, Alex Garland written Alien film... but maybe I'm just a blind Dredd fanboy. :laugh:
Quote from: WarriorRidged on Jul 12, 2017, 04:24:20 PM
I can't help but to think this prequel series would've been so much more interesting and not such a off-shoot tangent if Cameron had have been in the writing process and the director's chair. It's hypothetical because he is/has been busy with the Avatar films. But I would've much rather have seen the vision from a self admitted fan like Cameron, than a 79 year old director who seems completely detached from everything that came after "Alien".
That's what I'm liking about the prequels.
Quote from: WarriorRidged on Jul 12, 2017, 04:24:20 PM
Again, it's hypothetical - but I think (with Cameron) we would've got something more down the (fandom) line of Space Jockey/Xenomorph planet which I would much rather have preferred. I remember him saying of Prometheus (paraphrase) - "I enjoyed it, but it's not how I would've done things".
Cartoon bipedal elephants with machine guns probably.
Quote from: Gash on Jul 15, 2017, 10:47:56 PM
Quote from: WarriorRidged on Jul 12, 2017, 04:24:20 PM
I can't help but to think this prequel series would've been so much more interesting and not such a off-shoot tangent if Cameron had have been in the writing process and the director's chair. It's hypothetical because he is/has been busy with the Avatar films. But I would've much rather have seen the vision from a self admitted fan like Cameron, than a 79 year old director who seems completely detached from everything that came after "Alien".
That's what I'm liking about the prequels.
I'm in exactly the same boat! Alien was so much more plastic, so to speak, in creative terms, I mean allowing so many possibilities, but Aliens made it a lot more rigid and ruined a generation of people continuously influenced by it, because everybody was aping Aliens but few very influenced by Alien. Alien Isolation finally made it right.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jul 13, 2017, 12:52:03 AM
I'd be down for Whedon again.
Those other dorks can kick rocks.
He can't German Expressionism.
Quote from: Gash on Jul 15, 2017, 10:47:56 PM
Quote from: WarriorRidged on Jul 12, 2017, 04:24:20 PM
I can't help but to think this prequel series would've been so much more interesting and not such a off-shoot tangent if Cameron had have been in the writing process and the director's chair. It's hypothetical because he is/has been busy with the Avatar films. But I would've much rather have seen the vision from a self admitted fan like Cameron, than a 79 year old director who seems completely detached from everything that came after "Alien".
That's what I'm liking about the prequels.
Same. It's just something different. Just as Cameron did something different with Aliens.
I've just rewatched it yesterday, and I noticed how uncanny the neomorph was when standing up after killing Rosenthal, that was a good shot. Also, loved the music during the Oram chestburster scene, I definitely felt something at this moment. Overall, I'm not too fond of this movie, but I didn't hate it either, and at least rewatching it made me realize that those two scenes were cool, along with the two neomorphs births that I already liked during my first viewing.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Jul 19, 2017, 06:52:24 PM
I've just rewatched it yesterday, and I noticed how uncanny the neomorph was when standing up after killing Rosenthal, that was a good shot. Also, loved the music during the Oram chestburster scene, I definitely felt something at this moment. Overall, I'm not too fond of this movie, but I didn't hate it either, and at least rewatching it made me realize that those two scenes were cool, along with the two neomorphs births that I already liked during my first viewing.
Well, that's how rewatching things works. We notice things we didn't, before. I'm sure some people hate the film more after a second viewing but generally-speaking I'd bet that most people who sit through any film they hated will find themselves realizing that first impressions are as unreliable as ever.
Quote from: NickisSmart on Jul 29, 2017, 06:52:16 PM
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Jul 19, 2017, 06:52:24 PM
I've just rewatched it yesterday, and I noticed how uncanny the neomorph was when standing up after killing Rosenthal, that was a good shot. Also, loved the music during the Oram chestburster scene, I definitely felt something at this moment. Overall, I'm not too fond of this movie, but I didn't hate it either, and at least rewatching it made me realize that those two scenes were cool, along with the two neomorphs births that I already liked during my first viewing.
Well, that's how rewatching things works. We notice things we didn't, before. I'm sure some people hate the film more after a second viewing but generally-speaking I'd bet that most people who sit through any film they hated will find themselves realizing that first impressions are as unreliable as ever.
That's often the case, though I find it's very much the opposite with Alien 3... ;)
I've been checking out the movie again. I still hate it. Mainly due to how it killed the alien and made it into a david-invention.
i'm still very much unimpressed with how they handled shaw, there was so much to go with after prometheus, and nothing of it was used.
matter of fact, even david was not the same at all, rather a psychopathic maniac on the loose. and even that was inconsistent when he was suddenly aboard the covenant.the movie in itself made very little sense when there was so much to go with.
something that i didnt notice in the cinema but did notice on the download i watched is that in the terraforming bay when getting rid of the alien she warns tennessee not to shoot the alien unless absolutely neccesary because it's blood goes through the hull. i know she could have managed to understand that from the scene before where she puts the alien in the lander claw and shoots it and it's blood melts through the steel construct, but still it's odd to say it like that in this experience.
also noticed that indeed david attacked walter with the flute and it was the blood gushing out that looked like a whip when he pulled it from him. i could swear i saw a whip like cord thing pulled from walter but i guess eyes can be genuinly decieving.
i do admit i hated it less this time than in the cinema. still, prometheus is a lot better imho and that is not a good thing.
oh well.
Sorry you dislike the film so much. I don't. I loved how David was the creator of this particular offshoot of the beast, and how Shaw was murdered. I thought the film made a lot of sense.
Nick IS Smart.
Finally got to watch the film a second time, still really enjoyed it despite the flaws. This time however i found myself craving more of the Alien.
I think the soundtrack is really effective and erie as well.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Aug 06, 2017, 01:21:05 PM
Finally got to watch the film a second time, still really enjoyed it despite the flaws. This time however i found myself craving more of the Alien.
I think the soundtrack is really effective and erie as well.
Soundtrack is amazing and I wonder how exactly it was created with relation to the editing of the film. The medbay scene is so superbly tied to its accompanying soundtrack. Only superior aesthetic sense of Scott made this possible.
This song sums up exactly how I feel.
I think I like Alien Covenant. Not because it's very interesting...or scary...or creative...or fun, at least. It just clearly explains that the Alien we all loved for so long never really was an alien but a genetically engineered frankenstein monster created by a Weyland Yutani Android out of black goo and some dead chick's body parts and organs. Now we know why WY always knew about the Alien and why they want it. We thought they were just an evil corporation that wants to use this extremely dangerous and deadly alien organism as a biological weapon and rule everyone with an iron fist. However, we were wrong all along. Weyland Yutani never was evil. They created the android that created the Alien which makes the Alien an official product of Weyland Yutani. They just want their own product back and they have every right to. Everything makes sense now. Thank you, Sir Ridley Scott. Good job.
Quote from: Scree on Aug 09, 2017, 09:24:24 PM
I think I like Alien Covenant. Not because it's very interesting...or scary...or creative...or fun, at least. It just clearly explains that the Alien we all loved for so long never really was an alien but a genetically engineered frankenstein monster created by a Weyland Yutani Android out of black goo and some dead chick's body parts and organs. Now we know why WY always knew about the Alien and why they want it. We thought they were just an evil corporation that wants to use this extremely dangerous and deadly alien organism as a biological weapon and rule everyone with an iron fist. However, we were wrong all along. Weyland Yutani never was evil. They created the android that created the Alien which makes the Alien an official product of Weyland Yutani. They just want their own product back and they have every right to. Everything makes sense now. Thank you, Sir Ridley Scott. Good job.
Not the way I see it, but if it makes you happy.
Quote from: Scree on Aug 09, 2017, 09:24:24 PM
It just clearly explains that the Alien we all loved for so long never really was an alien but a genetically engineered frankenstein monster created by a Weyland Yutani Android out of black goo and some dead chick's body parts and organs.
I'd argue that its origin doesn't change its alien behaviour and consumption of our species.
Besides David is a Weyland Corp android.
;D
I'm still in awe that this was the story chosen. If you told me to write down 10 Prometheus 2 ideas, a colony ship would not make it.
Sooooo so random.
Well, it's really because of the idea that David created the Xenomorph. He needs enough hosts to perfect the Xenomorph, and it makes sense for a colonization ship to have a lot of humans on it.
Also in hindsight it is very strange that of all those couples on that colonization mission not a single one had a cat. That was the only thing still missing to fully complete the stupidity of Ridley Scott's Alien prequel ideas. How could he miss that? :D
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Aug 12, 2017, 04:25:49 PM
I'm still in awe that this was the story chosen. If you told me to write down 10 Prometheus 2 ideas, a colony ship would not make it.
Sooooo so random.
Yep. As soon as the synopsis came out in that official press release, I was like, "hoo boy... they're calling 'do-over' here."
I don't dislike the film, but the sense of 'forget that, look at THIS!' is unmistakeable.
Quote from: Darkness on May 09, 2017, 05:39:30 PM
This is the official fan reviews thread for Alien Covenant. It officially comes out tomorrow in some countries including France so here's the place to say what you thought about it after you've seen it. Think about what you liked, what you didn't like, how it compares to Prometheus and the rest of the films in the series. I've also included a little poll for you to rate it.
I quite enjoyed the movie although I wish it would have gone a more into Prometheus territory than it did. I have only seen it once in theatres and am looking forward to the BD release in a few days.
I reviewed the film on my podcast here: https://youtu.be/bZkcNQFSy8A
Quote from: Scree on Aug 12, 2017, 09:50:08 PM
Also in hindsight it is very strange that of all those couples on that colonization mission not a single one had a cat. That was the only thing still missing to fully complete the stupidity of Ridley Scott's Alien prequel ideas. How could he miss that? :D
He didn't. In creating his carbon copy movie, he just got David to supply the pets this time around.
This movie is still f**king weird. On my third viewing I give it 4 WTFs out of 10.
Quote from: Alien³ on Aug 12, 2017, 01:35:53 PMI'd argue that its origin doesn't change its alien behaviour and consumption of our species.
It does make it infinitely less interesting though.
To be fair, I never agreed with Ridley's assertion that the sequels to
Alien should've told us who the guy in the chair was. Some things are better just left mysterious.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Aug 14, 2017, 09:36:24 AM
Quote from: Alien³ on Aug 12, 2017, 01:35:53 PMI'd argue that its origin doesn't change its alien behaviour and consumption of our species.
It does make it infinitely less interesting though.
To be fair, I never agreed with Ridley's assertion that the sequels to Alien should've told us who the guy in the chair was. Some things are better just left mysterious.
Aint that the truth. The Alien "universe" has shrunk considerably, and now seems far less interesting. I've not seen it myself, but I believe the DVD also contains clips of David contacting WY and telling them all about how he created the alien... but then warning them not to show any interest in it. WTF? He's one really stupid robot.
Quote from: Rudiger on Aug 14, 2017, 10:43:47 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Aug 14, 2017, 09:36:24 AM
Quote from: Alien³ on Aug 12, 2017, 01:35:53 PMI'd argue that its origin doesn't change its alien behaviour and consumption of our species.
It does make it infinitely less interesting though.
To be fair, I never agreed with Ridley's assertion that the sequels to Alien should've told us who the guy in the chair was. Some things are better just left mysterious.
Aint that the truth. The Alien "universe" has shrunk considerably
Prometheans tend to disagree, beeing high on engineers and such.
I agree though, it's fact that the last 2 movies made the alien universe smaller.
I love being high on engineers. But the thing is, they're all gone now thanks to David. How am I going to get high now? :o
Ridley has already stated the Engineers return to find their planet decimated.
He's also mentioned a 'war of the worlds' on more than one occasion.
Considering David now possesses enough resources to create his first army, I find this potential scenario very enticing.
-Windebieste
Quote from: Hemi on Aug 14, 2017, 02:24:31 PM
Quote from: Rudiger on Aug 14, 2017, 10:43:47 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Aug 14, 2017, 09:36:24 AM
Quote from: Alien³ on Aug 12, 2017, 01:35:53 PMI'd argue that its origin doesn't change its alien behaviour and consumption of our species.
It does make it infinitely less interesting though.
To be fair, I never agreed with Ridley's assertion that the sequels to Alien should've told us who the guy in the chair was. Some things are better just left mysterious.
Aint that the truth. The Alien "universe" has shrunk considerably
Prometheans tend to disagree, beeing high on engineers and such.
This 'Promethean' doesn't disagree, but the fact is, Prometheus exists. With that reality in place, we need to expand on that shit. Simply saying "David killed 'em all, so yeah aliens!" doesn't cut it.
Like
Windebieste, I'm intrigued by the sequel hints that have been dropped.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Aug 13, 2017, 01:21:11 PM
This movie is still f**king weird. On my third viewing I give it 4 WTFs out of 10.
That's a good thing, though. Do you prefer bland and ordinary?
Quote from: windebieste on Aug 14, 2017, 11:52:18 PM
Ridley has already stated the Engineers return to find their planet decimated.
He's also mentioned a 'war of the worlds' on more than one occasion.
Considering David now possesses enough resources to create his first army, I find this potential scenario very enticing.
-Windebieste
And I hope that's what's gonna happen. But I'm afraid Fox is gonna ruin it, like always.
Quote from: Scorpio on Aug 15, 2017, 04:03:09 AMThat's a good thing, though. Do you prefer bland and ordinary?
It's not like they're the only two options.
What is bland and ordinary anyway. Another Alien movie? Aliens-esk perhaps? Why would this be bland and ordinary. If done right I would welcome it.
'Bland and ordinary' means appealing to the widest demographic possible. Also, sticking mainly to audience expectations. Obviously so they can make more money. Alien is a tried and true formula. Every film sticks to the formula, but the most interesting ones divert from the formula the most.
Quote from: Scorpio on Aug 15, 2017, 04:03:09 AMThat's a good thing, though. Do you prefer bland and ordinary?
Not at all. I love weird shit. I also love ordinary shit. Not a big fan of bland shit though.
Quote from: Scorpio on Aug 15, 2017, 11:47:34 AM
Every film sticks to the formula, but the most interesting ones divert from the formula the most.
Every mainstream film. There are films without formulas, trust me.
But generally I agree.
Guys holy shit, Prometheus 2 was about a bunch of colonist couples with go-pros getting split open by CGI xenos. Blows my mind every f**king two days.
I don't think I'll ever get over it. No Shaw communicating with engineers. No badass, subtle David.
Well...just saw the blu-ray and have to admit I'm gonna be eating my shoe...this movie is pretty good...from 6.7 I have to bump it to an 8.2 whereas Prometheus is still a 9 for me n Alien/Aliens 10.
I see where everything was heading, yes it had some goofy parts but its pretty damn good..
It can get very interesting from here as it leaves unlimited ways and doors to continue the story.
I didn't like the part with Tennessee's wife panicking like an airhead, why would she not open the door and both go and get guns since she already had blood on her face...that's completely nuts.
The part with Daniels surfing on a ship is in the same category.
But the rest of the movie is easily an 8.5, would have been a 9 if the Alien played a lesser super fast paced role. The Covenant should have been in the horror show with either a full grown newborn Beluga Alien or a big chap.
I see what a great role David is playing now...this is a pretty damn great movie.
The location, story is all there...I even liked the flute scene this time...there's some very interesting tidbits of info being thrown in everywhere including that scene.
David basically took a virus and just kept modifying it in his mad scientist labs. Who knows what other mutations the engineers messed around with..
It seems Ridley Scott is detracting from the Alien as being the main focus of the story to try and open things up in this which is great too. I'd have 2-3 different directors making different movies in this Universe, some like Aliens others like Alien, while continuing with this story too..
Need to add more horror/terror though...gotta have that element in there. Thought I was gonna shit my pants Ridley lol.
PS: Did they add more lines/scenes in this cut? I don't remember the captain saying to David I am seriously going to f**k up your composure. That was a great line.
It's 1:30 i think im going to watch it again....This was a few scenes away from a masterpiece.
The Alien probably really moves like that but it was at times too glowy like in Alien Res. With the Alien really moving at those speeds, the cgi and glowness all together..didn't work too too well, at times. Some scenes were very well done though with that big chap.
Quote from: Nostromo on Aug 20, 2017, 05:29:53 AM
Well...just saw the blu-ray and have to admit I'm gonna be eating my shoe...this movie is pretty good...from 6.7 I have to bump it to an 8.2 whereas Prometheus is still a 9 for me n Alien/Aliens 10.
I see where everything was heading, yes it had some goofy parts but its pretty damn good..
It can get very interesting from here as it leaves unlimited ways and doors to continue the story.
I didn't like the part with Tennessee's wife panicking like an airhead, why would she not open the door and both go and get guns since she already had blood on her face...that's completely nuts.
The part with Daniels surfing on a ship is in the same category.
But the rest of the movie is easily an 8.5, would have been a 9 if the Alien played a lesser super fast paced role. The Covenant should have been in the horror show with either a full grown newborn Beluga Alien or a big chap.
I see what a great role David is playing now...this is a pretty damn great movie.
The location, story is all there...I even liked the flute scene this time...there's some very interesting tidbits of info being thrown in everywhere including that scene.
David basically took a virus and just kept modifying it in his mad scientist labs. Who knows what other mutations the engineers messed around with..
It seems Ridley Scott is detracting from the Alien as being the main focus of the story to try and open things up in this which is great too. I'd have 2-3 different directors making different movies in this Universe, some like Aliens others like Alien, while continuing with this story too..
Need to add more horror/terror though...gotta have that element in there. Thought I was gonna shit my pants Ridley lol.
PS: Did they add more lines/scenes in this cut? I don't remember the captain saying to David I am seriously going to f**k up your composure. That was a great line.
It's 1:30 i think im going to watch it again....This was a few scenes away from a masterpiece.
The Alien probably really moves like that but it was at times too glowy like in Alien Res. With the Alien really moving at those speeds, the cgi and glowness all together..didn't work too too well, at times. Some scenes were very well done though with that big chap.
Nice. 8)
Faris just totally lost herself with panic. If she had survived, I'm sure she would look back on her mistakes and agree with you lol.
They should have done something more with the Alien at the end. I wasn't too enthused about how quickly they corralled it. It would have been a good time for Tennessee to bite the dust.
Quote from: szkoki on Aug 20, 2017, 09:44:00 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXbTzSOJITI
Yeah...I thought the same after viewing it at the theatre..but watch it a 2nd time it may change your opinion a bit.
Just saw the deleted/extended scenes...some of them are good and should have been in the movie.
I still found some scenes that make no sense like the guy saying what is wheat doing all the way out here in space when they've already heard a human song while listening to the transmission...or why the hell isnt there a bit more expression when they discover shaw's military tag..picture..etc. As if they had seen a rock or something.
Also, the scene with the 2nd guy that gets infected is as bad as the snake scene in Prometheus...could have been done smarter.
Besides all that, if the big chap was shown in a better way, this movie would have been great. Too much jumping around and CGI in some scenes killed it a few points. It basically lacked smart terror and a bit more smarter dialogue was needed. Still a good movie though and 4th best of the series..
Alien 10
Aliens 10
Prometheus 9
AC 8.2
A3 7.3
A4 7.2
One more thing concerning the Neutrino, smart idea but the captain's suggestion to figure out how it haplened is a bit absurd, everyone aboard that ship should know Neutrino strikes can pass from anywhere but highly unlikely to hit one as Walter points out. Unless he was getting at a point that they should fix the ship, didn't quite get it.
Walter is great by the way. Best Android to have on board. Smart and reliable. But what the heck did he insert in the biohazard jar in the beginning? Looked like what David spat out in the end..
Love the transmission part in this movie, it clearly shows what happened to Shaw also. Probably lost her mind waiting around to be singing that song you'd think.
I liked the captain too he had great points and lines, not sure why he looked useless in the theater...
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Aug 19, 2017, 04:12:09 AM
Guys holy shit, Prometheus 2 was about a bunch of colonist couples with go-pros getting split open by CGI xenos. Blows my mind every f**king two days.
As opposed to what? You want 80s camcorders instead? :P
QuoteI don't think I'll ever get over it. No Shaw communicating with engineers.
She already did that in Prometheus. It didn't work out well for her.
QuoteNo badass, subtle David.
Well he wasn't exactly a comic book villain level of subtle. :P
Goodnight, don't let the bed bugs bite!
Quote from: Nostromo on Aug 21, 2017, 04:56:31 AM
Goodnight, don't let the bed bugs bite!
David had that twisted humour in Prometheus, though. "Good health" It's part of his character.
QuotePS: Did they add more lines/scenes in this cut? I don't remember the captain saying to David I am seriously going to f**k up your composure. That was a great line.
It was in the theatrical version.
Quote from: Scorpio on Aug 21, 2017, 06:14:18 AM
Quote from: Nostromo on Aug 21, 2017, 04:56:31 AM
Goodnight, don't let the bed bugs bite!
David had that twisted humour in Prometheus, though. "Good health" It's part of his character.
Yes he did, suits him.
After viewing it for a 3rd time it's clear this movie is great with 1 or 2 flaws for me.
The part where Faris (who looks like cpl. Dietrich but acts like cpl. Fero in Aliens, ) is getting screamed at to open the door while she's the one that will clearly be infected, if anyone is going to be infected, with blood on her face. It should have been the other girl covered with blood on her face screaming than it would make more sense.
And the big stink is almost every scene with the big chap Alien..no build up just an Alien running around in glowing cgi...looked very cartoony...clumsy and lazy way to end the movie, should have wasted a bit more resources here, I'm curious to see the making of AC.
I feel like some more content was missing in the movie, a better extended version would have worked great here. Have shown the company (Weyland) making plans or talking about the Prometheus being lost or something in the beginning of the movie, with even more Weyland story during the movie.
Daniels needed to show some more expression also when finding another human's dogtag 500 trillion miles away from Earth...not oh here's someone's dogtag, how nice is that.
Yea that chick wondering around the caves to clean herself is a bit ridiculous too...in Alien or Aliens no one was really left walking around alone, unless it was David that told them mi casa su casa they suddenly felt at home.
Should have been planning how to escape not washing their hair as if nothing is going on...
The rest of the movie is completely watchable.
Soundtrack is pretty damn good. Mixed feelings about using some Alien 1979 music though in the beginning.
Quote from: Nostromo on Aug 21, 2017, 12:28:01 PMThe part where Ferris or Farris is getting screamed at to open the door while she's the one that's clearly going to be infected with blood on her face. That is so stupid it makes you want to break the tv.
It's not stupid at all.
It's someone who's terrified and panicking and more concerned about saving themselves than the fact they have blood on their face. It's selfish and irresponsible, but it's perfectly believable given the heap of scary shit she finds herself in.
I get why people harp on her constantly falling over (not that I found
that especially silly either, given the horrific chaos that's unfolding), but her refusing to open that door isn't dumb at all. It's survival instinct in a panicked situation.
Fcking youtube trying to tell me what I should and should not like.
"Why I hated crap" Please press play, cous I need attention. (and views)
Just use your keyboard and boards like these. I don't want to see a movie of a screenshot with a bloke talking over it.
Lazy! Shut your piehole and use your keyboard!
--- end rant
Srry about that, maybe i'm just getting old or something...
'Why I am answering a question no one ever asked.'
You see it a lot in online journalism as well. It's generally about as dull as you think it'd be.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Aug 21, 2017, 12:34:51 PM
Quote from: Nostromo on Aug 21, 2017, 12:28:01 PMThe part where Ferris or Farris is getting screamed at to open the door while she's the one that's clearly going to be infected with blood on her face. That is so stupid it makes you want to break the tv.
It's not stupid at all.
It's someone who's terrified and panicking and more concerned about saving themselves than the fact they have blood on their face. It's selfish and irresponsible, but it's perfectly believable given the heap of scary shit she finds herself in.
I get why people harp on her constantly falling over (not that I found that especially silly either, given the horrific chaos that's unfolding), but her refusing to open that door isn't dumb at all. It's survival instinct in a panicked situation.
I don't know man, possible but hard to believe Weyland (Nasa on super steroids and more, much more) would send someone that loses their cool, and all their shit, on the first site of some blood or some yelling about. Space miners or Space truck men sure...I don't know, it's a hard one to accept and live with lol. Every time I see it...she just totally fux up that whole scene.
They should have both went and got guns and hid and see what it does and giggle tee hee hee.
Faris was cool as flying through the storm. Tennessee said he'd never heard his wife scared before. This was unprecedented.
How much extreme violence do you think the average commercial pilot is exposed to?
Quote from: SM on Aug 22, 2017, 02:19:26 AM
Faris was cool as flying through the storm. Tennessee said he'd never heard his wife scared before. This was unprecedented.
How much extreme violence do you think the average commercial pilot is exposed to?
It's just that she loses her stuff as soon as she hears Karine thrpugh the mic say with a louder than usual tone, "We're coming prepare the med bay", That's pretty delicate, but yet again, if there had been more backstory aboard the Covenant earlier in the film, (Something interesting should have happened during those 7 weeks to reach this planet) that kind of spooked her out,haps learning something from the damn company.
There was the captain on fire situation, but something involving the company or the Prometheus perhaps. Than again, they are far away, maybe that's freaking her out too.
Wouldn't you need to be on a high level of clearance and things to be allowed to travel with 2000 embryos, etc and be responsible for them to arrive on a never explored before habitable planet, unless it's the norm during those years...or Weyland sends expendible people?
I edited and trimmed my 2 last posts..
Faris started to get concerned, not unreasonably, when Ledward, who looked like Death warmed over, spewed blood all over Karine.
Quote(Something interesting should have happened during those 7 weeks to reach this planet)
I think it's only about 2 weeks.
QuoteWouldn't you need to be on a high level of clearance and things to be allowed to travel with 2000 embryos, etc and be responsible for them to arrive on a new habitable planet, unless it's the norm during those years...or Weyland sends expendible peole?
Dunno what you mean.
Quote from: Nostromo on Aug 22, 2017, 03:37:37 AMWouldn't you need to be on a high level of clearance and things to be allowed to travel with 2000 embryos, etc and be responsible for them to arrive on a never explored before habitable planet, unless it's the norm during those years...or Weyland sends expendible people?
I'm sure they're very well trained, but I doubt that training involved how to deal with alien lifeforms exploding out of people. Plus, Faris isn't part of the security team, who you'd expect to be hardened against that sort of thing to at least some degree. She's just a pilot.
The ones who are dumb are Ledward and Hallett for getting exposed in the first place. Faris' reaction to the carnage seems pretty legit to me. I completely buy her losing it and doing ill thought-out things in that situation. Don't forget, she's never seen an
Alien film before, this is all new to her ;)
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Aug 21, 2017, 12:34:51 PM
Quote from: Nostromo on Aug 21, 2017, 12:28:01 PMThe part where Ferris or Farris is getting screamed at to open the door while she's the one that's clearly going to be infected with blood on her face. That is so stupid it makes you want to break the tv.
It's not stupid at all.
It's someone who's terrified and panicking and more concerned about saving themselves than the fact they have blood on their face. It's selfish and irresponsible, but it's perfectly believable given the heap of scary shit she finds herself in.
I get why people harp on her constantly falling over (not that I found that especially silly either, given the horrific chaos that's unfolding), but her refusing to open that door isn't dumb at all. It's survival instinct in a panicked situation.
Spot on.
How are Hallet and Ledward dumb for getting exposed? How were they supposed to avoid what they can't see?
Hallett literally leans in and pokes at the thing, setting it off in his face. But really I guess that's a wider issue with them not taking any kind of precautions while exploring a new planet. Sure, I 'd assumed they did some scans beforehand or something, but who says that's 100% reliable, especially with potentially unknown life? They could still quite easily don masks.
It didn't bug me a whole lot (certainly not as much as Oram taking David's word for it), but it was definitely more silly than what Faris did, which struck me as entirely believable.
Quote from: SM on Aug 22, 2017, 12:00:49 PM
How are Hallet and Ledward dumb for getting exposed? How were they supposed to avoid what they can't see?
They're certainly as dumb as the rest of the crew, blundering about a supposedly alien planet without a care in the world.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Aug 22, 2017, 12:30:02 PM
Hallett literally leans in and pokes at the thing, setting it off in his face. But really I guess that's a wider issue with them not taking any kind of precautions while exploring a new planet. Sure, I 'd assumed they did some scans beforehand or something, but who says that's 100% reliable, especially with potentially unknown life? They could still quite easily don masks.
It didn't bug me a whole lot (certainly not as much as Oram taking David's word for it), but it was definitely more silly than what Faris did, which struck me as entirely believable.
Yeah, that was nutty too...why look at these cute oval things I wonder what they could be! Might have some popcorn inside, I should look!
Sorry but Faris still bugs me, I don't think I've hated or found dumber a character in the entire Aliens/AVP franchise, except some in AVP2...I just hate her man! I hate her because she freaks out not when seeing spines coming out of someone's back instead she freezes as soon as she hears a voice telling her we are coming prepare the med bay. OMG I wanna kill her. lol
As someone who talked endlessly on this forum about the unbearable stupidity of every single character in Covenant, I think Faris' behavior during the medbay scene makes total sense...at least until she comes back into the room and starts bloodskating.
Quote from: Nostromo on Aug 22, 2017, 07:53:02 PMSorry but Faris still bugs me, I don't think I've hated or found dumber a character in the entire Aliens/AVP franchise, except some in AVP2...I just hate her man!
May I suggest
Prometheus?
Plenty of characters do far more idiotic stuff in that, often while under no stress whatsoever.
QuoteSorry but Faris still bugs me, I don't think I've hated or found dumber a character in the entire Aliens/AVP franchise, except some in AVP2...I just hate her man! I hate her because she freaks out not when seeing spines coming out of someone's back instead she freezes as soon as she hears a voice telling her we are coming prepare the med bay. OMG I wanna kill her. lol
That isn't what happens at all.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Aug 22, 2017, 08:13:37 PM
As someone who talked endlessly on this forum about the unbearable stupidity of every single character in Covenant,
I know, just like Kane looking over the egg in Alien.
Quote from: Alionic on Aug 22, 2017, 10:05:07 PM
I know, just like Kane looking over the egg in Alien.
Kane looking over the egg in Alien made sense. He was curious to see the lifeform and didn't think it could pose a threat in such an early stage. Unlike Oram's egg scenario, where he looks inside the egg because the alien loving android that was somehow involved in Rosenthal's death walked him to one and told him to do it.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Aug 22, 2017, 10:19:19 PM
Quote from: Alionic on Aug 22, 2017, 10:05:07 PM
I know, just like Kane looking over the egg in Alien.
Kane looking over the egg in Alien made sense. He was curious to see the lifeform and didn't think it could pose a threat in such an early stage. Unlike Oram's egg scenario, where he looks inside the egg because the alien loving android that was somehow involved in Rosenthal's death walked him to one and told him to do it.
Yeah, snooping around moving eggs after stumbling across a giant dead alien in a chair was a rational thing to do. However, it did give us a great film, which is what matters.
Quote from: Alionic on Aug 22, 2017, 10:23:20 PM
Yeah, snooping around moving eggs after stumbling across a giant dead alien in a chair was a rational thing to do.
Why is it irrational? What's your experience with eggs that led you to assume eggs pose a threat?
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Aug 22, 2017, 10:19:19 PM
Quote from: Alionic on Aug 22, 2017, 10:05:07 PM
I know, just like Kane looking over the egg in Alien.
Kane looking over the egg in Alien made sense. He was curious to see the lifeform and didn't think it could pose a threat in such an early stage. Unlike Oram's egg scenario, where he looks inside the egg because the alien loving android that was somehow involved in Rosenthal's death walked him to one and told him to do it.
Obviously Oram was curious as well, and perhaps confident he had the situation under control after dispatching the neomorph.
Everything about the derelict was scary and forboding even before finding the giant in a chair with a hole busted out of his chest. The egg room with thousands of alien eggs that look like spores would be terrifying to anyone. You would have to be crazy to stick your head in that egg. However given the nature of the film it doesnt bother me, same with covenant.
Also why would oram suspect david was involved in Rosenthals death?
Yeah I was wondering if I missed something there too.
As far as Oram knew, David rescued them from the Neomorph.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Aug 22, 2017, 11:09:07 PM
Also why would oram suspect david was involved in Rosenthals death?
Because he finds Rosenthal's head next to David and the Neomorph, and after killing the Neomorph says: "David, I met the Devil when I was a child, and I've never forgotten him. So David, you're gonna tell me exactly what's going on, or I am going to seriously f**k up your perfect composure".
The film clearly establishes that Oram sees David as a threat, and then the film has Oram following David around and doing whatever David tells him. Because that's how people act, I guess.
Doesn't really answer the question.
Quote from: SM on Aug 22, 2017, 11:24:39 PM
Doesn't really answer the question.
How does Oram finding Rosenthal's head next to David and the Neomorph not answer the question?
Because it ignores what follows where David is very open and forthcoming about what he's been up to for the last 10 years, which gives Oram reason to let his guard down.
Oram has no reason to so much as follow David around, let alone buy into whatever David says and do what he tells him.
If you say so.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Aug 22, 2017, 11:31:18 PM
Oram has no reason to so much as follow David around, let alone buy into whatever David says and do what he tells him.
Oram followed David because he wanted answers. He was also armed with a rifle and based on the dialogue you just repeated, willing to use it again if necessary.
Quote from: Predaker on Aug 22, 2017, 11:48:12 PM
Oram followed David because he wanted answers. He was also armed with a rifle and based on the dialogue you just repeated, willing to use it again if necessary.
Usually when someone perceives someone else as a threat and wants answers, he doesn't really want to follow them around to some place he doesn't know, where he has no real control over the situation and can be caught off guard. This is when you get overused cliche sentences such as 'We're not going anywhere'. Cause why would you?
Quote from: Predaker on Aug 23, 2017, 12:00:04 AM
Again because he wanted answers, simply put. It's not like he needed a code to disarm a bomb or something, he just wanted to know what was really going on.
If all you want is for another person to speak, why would you want to go to someplace else? Was there something preventing David from speaking where they originally were?
Show don't tell.
David was standing outside the room containing Rosenthal and the Neomorph. Davids reaction to killing the neomorph was something but there was no reason to suspect he had anything to do with the neomorph finding and killing Rosenthal.
Quote from: SM on Aug 22, 2017, 11:24:39 PM
Doesn't really answer the question.
Did you expect anything else? :laugh:
Quote from: 426Buddy on Aug 23, 2017, 12:24:54 AM
David was standing outside the room containing Rosenthal and the Neomorph. Davids reaction to killing the neomorph was something but there was no reason to suspect he had anything to do with the neomorph finding and killing Rosenthal.
Oram finds David and the Neomorph practically kissing, with the Neomorph still dripping blood from eating Rosenthal's corpse. In case for some reason you're still naive enough to not to think Oram thinks David had something to do with the Neomorph finding and killing Rosenthal, you have Oram threatening to shoot David if he doesn't provide him with answers. Oram thinking that David had something to do with it is unquestionable, both on a visual and on a dialogue level.
I agree that Oram's actions were a stretch. The fact is, David's behaviour is at the very least incredibly suspicious, and people have been dying as a result of strange alien life for the previous few hours.
"I've been alone on this planet for ten years playing God. By the way, look at this egg. Go on, lean in and take a really good peek!"
I don't buy it. People were snickering at it at the premiere, and Ridley was in the room.
It made more sense for Kane to be curious and stick his head somewhere stupid, than for someone to be told to do it by someone who has spent the last five minutes proving himself to be an unquestionably creepy motherf**ker.
Makes more sense to whom, though? Maybe to this character it made sense. Character decisions in movies are always questionable. You might say you would not do that, but how would you know unless you were in that situation? It's just nitpicking.
Quote from: Scorpio on Aug 23, 2017, 09:46:02 AMMakes more sense to whom, though?
To the audience.
It's all about the build-up. Throughout the trek to the derelict Kane is the one telling the others, "We have to go on!" - the film establishes beforehand he's determined to follow his curiosity, so I buy it getting the better of him later on. Oram goes from threatening David at f*cking gunpoint to willingly following his obviously dubious instruction in the space of about 30 seconds.
It don't think it doesn't make sense for Oram, but it made more sense for Kane because he was established as the adventurer and explorer.
Even Kane should have known better, if you want to look at it that way. Anyone should know that you should not mess around with unknown alien life on an alien planet. It's just common sense, but if characters didn't do such things, there would be no film.
I just find it a poor reason to hate on the film, and is just nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.
If Oram did suspect David's involvement in Rosenthal's death then he would actually have been wrong anyway because David wasn't involved.
Oram finds an unarmed David attempting to pacify a monstrous many teethed creature. What would he have expected David to have been doing at this point, wrestling the beast to the ground?
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 23, 2017, 11:07:15 AM
If Oram did suspect David's involvement in Rosenthal's death then he would actually have been wrong anyway because David wasn't involved.
Oram finds an unarmed David attempting to pacify a monstrous many teethed creature. What would he have expected David to have been doing at this point, wrestling the beast to the ground?
David's screaming when the Neomorph was shooted was one of the many laugh out loud moments.
So Campy!
Quote from: Hide on Aug 23, 2017, 11:47:46 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 23, 2017, 11:07:15 AM
If Oram did suspect David's involvement in Rosenthal's death then he would actually have been wrong anyway because David wasn't involved.
Oram finds an unarmed David attempting to pacify a monstrous many teethed creature. What would he have expected David to have been doing at this point, wrestling the beast to the ground?
David's screaming when the Neomorph was shooted was one of the many laugh out loud moments.
So Campy!
I didn't laugh.
Quote from: Hide on Aug 23, 2017, 11:47:46 AM
David's screaming when the Neomorph was shooted was one of the many laugh out loud moments.
So Campy!
I didn't laugh at it when I first saw the film in theaters, but upon rewatching it at home I did giggle at Fassbender's facial expression in that scene, same as Walter's expression when David "kills" him with a flute. Something about the quick change of facial expression combined with the camera angle made me think of Brian Cranston in Malcolm in the Middle. As an unintentional comedy, Covenant is pure gold.
Quote from: Hide on Aug 23, 2017, 11:47:46 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 23, 2017, 11:07:15 AM
If Oram did suspect David's involvement in Rosenthal's death then he would actually have been wrong anyway because David wasn't involved.
Oram finds an unarmed David attempting to pacify a monstrous many teethed creature. What would he have expected David to have been doing at this point, wrestling the beast to the ground?
David's screaming when the Neomorph was shooted was one of the many laugh out loud moments.
So Campy!
Alien Covenant has an age restriction doesn't it? To keep the juvenile giggling f**kwits with no life experience out of the theatre.
Personally I thought that when the Neomorph got shooted at, it was a bit like when the Neomorph got talkied at, it was creepy.
What in the ever loving f**k does life experience have to do with laughing at an actor's performance in a sci-fi movie?
"If you'd ever lived a proper life you'd never laugh at Fassbender's impassioned crying when his monster offspring is shot! Only someone who has truly lived life can understand!"
f**k off.
Who are you quoting there you silly Tw*t
Quote from: Gash on Aug 23, 2017, 12:49:25 PMAlien Covenant has an age restriction doesn't it? To keep the juvenile giggling f**kwits with no life experience out of the theatre.
See my earlier comment about people laughing at the stupidity of Oram looking into the egg
at the world premiere.
Quote from: Gash on Aug 23, 2017, 01:00:36 PM
Tw*t
Oh, grow up. People will dislike the things you like. People will laugh at things you don't. That doesn't make them uncultured or juvenile or f**kwits, it means they have different tastes and experiences.
Anyone with
life experience would know this.
Quote from: SiL on Aug 23, 2017, 01:03:08 PM
Quote from: Gash on Aug 23, 2017, 01:00:36 PM
Tw*t
Oh, grow up. People will dislike the things you like. People will laugh at things you don't. That doesn't make them uncultured or juvenile or f**kwits, it means they have different tastes and experiences.
Anyone with life experience would know this.
Brilliant. Says the guy who tells people to f*ck off if they have a different opinion.
Having a different opinion is fine; you're condescending people who have a different opinion and calling them f**kwits for laughing at something. That's not fine. And why I said to f**k off.
This thread is getting fun.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F5s4kkZ1.gif&hash=4d6eae2044def5332e779cd8ac877af966a370e5)
Quote from: SiL on Aug 23, 2017, 01:06:26 PM
Having a different opinion is fine; you're condescending people who have a different opinion and calling them f**kwits for laughing at something. That's not fine. And why I said to f**k off.
I'm condescending Hide, who writes like a 12 year old, and boasts at his ability to laugh at film but has never posted anything that suggests any deeper thought processes in his critiques. Unless of course you count his assertion that Ridley is senile.
You will condescend no-one. Please enjoy a 7 day sabbatical from being able to post on this forum.
I would suggest that any member who feels they are allowed to come on here and insult anyone they disagree with (whether they enjoyed Covenant or not) needs to go back and re-read the forum rules - http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=3.0
Quote- Be Nice & Respecful. Be nice to other members. While a forum is for debating issues, just plain insulting people will not be tolerated.
And if anyone else has a legitimate issue with what members are posting, please ensure that the posts are reported. Thank you to the members who reported Gash's behavior.
Sorry if my critique is disturbing to anyone who liked the film but as a huge fan of Alien (1979) I can't be more disappointed.
Not because that I hate the idea of an Android creating the alien, but because the bad execution of that idea.
There are numerous videos on YouTube that are explaining all the bad things of the movie, and personally I have a lot more to add to all of them.
(Like we don't have a real sense of how big the spaceship is, or that carries 2000 people, we just see a scene of 50 cryotubes or something...) But my criticism would be unnecessary because of all the other major problems of the movie.
As I have said before, this movie is a master class of how to not direct a movie.
And as a fan of the first 2 movies + the assembly cut of the 3rd I can't help but express my hate for the 2 prequels and especially Covenant that was an abomination.
Quote from: Hide on Aug 23, 2017, 01:38:57 PM
Sorry if my critique is disturbing to anyone who liked the film but as a huge fan of Alien (1979) I can't be more disappointed.
Not because that I hate the idea of an Android creating the alien, but because the bad execution of that idea.
There are numerous videos on YouTube that are explaining all the bad things of the movie, and personally I have a lot more to add to all of them.
(Like we don't have a real sense of how big the spaceship is, or that carries 2000 people, we just see a scene of 50 cryotubes or something...) But my criticism would be unnecessary because of all the other major problems of the movie.
As I have said before, this movie is a master class of how to not direct a movie.
And as a fan of the first 2 movies + the assembly cut of the 3rd I can't help but express my hate for the 2 prequels and especially Covenant that was an abomination.
The thing is, videos on YouTube don't explain anything. They just express a persons view, just as you are.
I disagree with you that Covenant is an abomoination and I firmly believe it's masterfully made.
You disagree and that's fine, no need to apologise for how you feel about the film but personally I do find some of the distespectful things you say about Ridley to be pretty offensive.
Quote from: Hide on Aug 23, 2017, 01:38:57 PM
(Like we don't have a real sense of how big the spaceship is, or that carries 2000 people, we just see a scene of 50 cryotubes or something...)
???
??? indeed.
Look at the exterior shots of the ship if you want to get a sense of how big it is. It's big. We're told how colonists there are several times. We don't need to see them. And he's complaining about the direction...?
What an odd criticism.
Edit: Nevermind.
After rewatching it, I can't believe how badly directed the whole thing is.
I only liked 5 things.
- The music.
- The opening scene.
- The design of the spaceship when the energy concentrators are open.
-The colors of the scene when David releases the black goo.
And
- The hopelessness of the last scene when Daniels understands inside the cryotube that Walter is in fact David.
The flaws of the movie are so many that I think it is a miracle that it earned a number of 70% freshness on Rotten Tomatoes. And somehow a miracle that Ridley's movie schedule is intact after this FIASCO!
In what way is it badly directed?
Cant help but keep going back to the stats at the top of this topic, 56% of fans will disagree with you and a futher 33% would be on the fence. Give it a rest, your in the minority and no ammount of youtube videos will convince us otherwise.
Popular opinion doesn't make anyone right or wrong.
It's the hard and fast statements like 'it's a masterclass in how to not direct a movie' I find baffling.
Perhaps Hide could supply an example or two of a film masterpiece so we can gauge his quality meter? I find his statements baffling so some context would be helpful.
One quality masterpiece that firstly comes to my mind is "ALIEN".
A master class of "how to direct a movie".
It isn't considered a classic for nothing.
The direction really wasn't the problem with Covenant (although the pacing was definitely off in the second half). Once again, like Prometheus, most of the faults came from the script.
Quote from: dave1978 on Aug 24, 2017, 11:05:05 AM
Cant help but keep going back to the stats at the top of this topic, 56% of fans will disagree with you and a futher 33% would be on the fence. Give it a rest, your in the minority and no ammount of youtube videos will convince us otherwise.
56% of fans
on this site. 33% of fans
on this site. This silly notion as if polls on this site accurately represent fan response to a film really needs to stop. Go visit the Prometheus fan reviews page. 66.7% loved it and 22.6% were on the fence. Would you say that it would be fair, based on those numbers, to refer to Prometheus as a well-liked film?
What's even more problematic with your post is that you seem to think that what's important is that he's on the minority on this site, rather than what he actually says. Even if Covenant was hated by 99% of the people on this site and only loved by 1%, it wouldn't have made his argument stronger or weaker in any way.
As for what Hide actually said, I don't think Covenant is a master class in how not to direct a film. It was pretty well directed overall, though I'd still put it among Ridley Scott's weaker material. It's still better than what most directors would've done, but nothing that's really praiseworthy either. Examples of bad direction in this film would include leaving redundant scenes in the film, while removing scenes of actual value.
For example: the opening prologue, while being a very good scene, is not needed in the film. Almost all of the information given to the audience in that scene is given to the audience
again via David during his conversations with the Covenant crew in Engineerville. The only thing that scene adds is making some sense out of David's radical character transformation between Prometheus and Covenant. In Prometheus, David was a shady, yet remarkably humane android with a hint at an inferiority complex. He was obeying orders in an attempt to appease Weyland, while also resenting other people for looking down on him. In Covenant, he's basically space Hitler with a hobby for genetics (mind you, his specialty in Prometheus was linguistics). This whole character transformation happens off-screen due to a bad screenplay, so it needs to be explained somehow. That scene's whole purpose is to tell the audience that David's Hitler mustache started growing way back on Earth. If that's the whole purpose of the scene, it could've been completely removed and just served as a quick conversation flashback during the Engineerville parts that would only show the immortality discussion. Everything else is a waste of the audience's time.
Another example is the deleted material. Anyone who watched it can tell that a huge chunk of it is character development. So are some of the viral scenes of this film. I personally don't think adding them to the film would've saved it, but they would definitely have improved it. Their absence is why so many people are complaining about the first act of Covenant being a boring chore; It doesn't do its job of setting up the characters.
And then, there's of course the fact that Covenant looks visually worse than Prometheus. You can cut Ridley Scott some slack for having less of a budget to work with, but I mean, it's not like there weren't interesting locations in this film, such as everything in Engineerville outside of David's hideout. They just weren't utilized for anything. Even inside his hideout, when excluding the room where he did his experiments (which was great), it's pretty bland. No murals, everything is clean, nothing new and interesting...very uninspired stuff. In Alien and even in Prometheus, everything looked gritty, real and original. You wanted the film to give you more time to explore those rooms and corridors. None of that in Covenant.
My main issue with the film is its script, which is abysmal, but I gotta give the screenwriters some slack and throw some more hate at Ridley Scott about it because they had to write their script around his ideas, which, in my opinion, were fundementally flawed.
Quote from: Hide on Aug 24, 2017, 12:29:55 PM
One quality masterpiece that firstly comes to my mind is "ALIEN".
A master class of "how to direct a movie".
It isn't considered a classic for nothing.
Indeed. Some examples from other genres would be a better gauge of directional styles though.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Aug 24, 2017, 12:40:09 PM
For example: the opening prologue, while being a very good scene, is not needed in the film. Almost all of the information given to the audience in that scene is given to the audience again via David during his conversations with the Covenant crew in Engineerville. The only thing that scene adds is making some sense out of David's radical character transformation between Prometheus and Covenant. In Prometheus, David was a shady, yet remarkably humane android with a hint at an inferiority complex. He was obeying orders in an attempt to appease Weyland, while also resenting other people for looking down on him. In Covenant, he's basically space Hitler with a hobby for genetics (mind you, his specialty in Prometheus was linguistics). This whole character transformation happens off-screen due to a bad screenplay, so it needs to be explained somehow. That scene's whole purpose is to tell the audience that David's Hitler mustache started growing way back on Earth. If that's the whole purpose of the scene, it could've been completely removed and just served as a quick conversation flashback during the Engineerville parts that would only show the immortality discussion. Everything else is a waste of the audience's time.
I thought the prologue was essential. I found nothing in it that contradicted Prometheus, rather I thought it helped to make sense of David saying 'who doesn't want their parents dead'. I'm not seeing David as space Hitler either though, so I suppose we are looking at the character from completely different perspectives.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Aug 24, 2017, 12:40:09 PM
Quote from: dave1978 on Aug 24, 2017, 11:05:05 AM
Cant help but keep going back to the stats at the top of this topic, 56% of fans will disagree with you and a futher 33% would be on the fence. Give it a rest, your in the minority and no ammount of youtube videos will convince us otherwise.
56% of fans on this site. 33% of fans on this site. This silly notion as if polls on this site accurately represent fan response to a film really needs to stop. Go visit the Prometheus fan reviews page. 66.7% loved it and 22.6% were on the fence. Would you say that it would be fair, based on those numbers, to refer to Prometheus as a well-liked film?
What's even more problematic with your post is that you seem to think that what's important is that he's on the minority on this site, rather than what he actually says. Even if Covenant was hated by 99% of the people on this site and only loved by 1%, it wouldn't have made his argument stronger or weaker in any way.
As for what Hide actually said, I don't think Covenant is a master class in how not to direct a film. It was pretty well directed overall, though I'd still put it among Ridley Scott's weaker material. It's still better than what most directors would've done, but nothing that's really praiseworthy either. Examples of bad direction in this film would include leaving redundant scenes in the film, while removing scenes of actual value.
For example: the opening prologue, while being a very good scene, is not needed in the film. Almost all of the information given to the audience in that scene is given to the audience again via David during his conversations with the Covenant crew in Engineerville. The only thing that scene adds is making some sense out of David's radical character transformation between Prometheus and Covenant. In Prometheus, David was a shady, yet remarkably humane android with a hint at an inferiority complex. He was obeying orders in an attempt to appease Weyland, while also resenting other people for looking down on him. In Covenant, he's basically space Hitler with a hobby for genetics (mind you, his specialty in Prometheus was linguistics). This whole character transformation happens off-screen due to a bad screenplay, so it needs to be explained somehow. That scene's whole purpose is to tell the audience that David's Hitler mustache started growing way back on Earth. If that's the whole purpose of the scene, it could've been completely removed and just served as a quick conversation flashback during the Engineerville parts that would only show the immortality discussion. Everything else is a waste of the audience's time.
Another example is the deleted material. Anyone who watched it can tell that a huge chunk of it is character development. So are some of the viral scenes of this film. I personally don't think adding them to the film would've saved it, but they would definitely have improved it. Their absence is why so many people are complaining about the first act of Covenant being a boring chore; It doesn't do its job of setting up the characters.
And then, there's of course the fact that Covenant looks visually worse than Prometheus. You can cut Ridley Scott some slack for having less of a budget to work with, but I mean, it's not like there weren't interesting locations in this film, such as everything in Engineerville outside of David's hideout. They just weren't utilized for anything. Even inside his hideout, when excluding the room where he did his experiments (which was great), it's pretty bland. No murals, everything is clean, nothing new and interesting...very uninspired stuff. In Alien and even in Prometheus, everything looked gritty, real and original. You wanted the film to give you more time to explore those rooms and corridors. None of that in Covenant.
My main issue with the film is its script, which is abysmal, but I gotta give the screenwriters some slack and throw some more hate at Ridley Scott about it because they had to write their script around his ideas, which, in my opinion, were fundementally flawed.
#
So you don't believe this site represents fans views in general? What exactly are you suggesting, that the majority of fans on this particular site have different views from other fans and are wrong about the film?
Yet these percentages are largely in line with review pages such as RT as well. The same goes for Prometheus.
Statistically Covenant is regarded as above average whether you like that or not. As someone who loves the film I accept i'm in the minority. As someone who hates it, you also need to accept the fact you are the minority.
You feel the opening scenes are pointless and an example of bad direction yet I think they are vital, so am I wrong and you right? does this mean you have a greater appreciation of film direction than I? at time your arrogance astounds me.
And Hide doesn't have an argument because he is yet to present anything to support his hyperbolic and at times troubling statements.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 24, 2017, 01:17:18 PM
So you don't believe this site represents fans views in general? What exactly are you suggesting, that the majority of fans on this particular site have different views from other fans and are wrong about the film?
Yet these percentages are largely in line with review pages such as RT as well. The same goes for Prometheus.
I don't believe this site (or any fan site, for that matter) represents fan views in general. I don't say, and never have said, that liking a film others dislike is wrong, and vice versa.
Quote
Statistically Covenant is regarded as above average whether you like that or not. As someone who loves the film I accept i'm in the minority. As someone who hates it, you also need to accept the fact you are the minority.
Did you even read what I wrote?
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Aug 24, 2017, 12:40:09 PM
What's even more problematic with your post is that you seem to think that what's important is that he's on the minority on this site, rather than what he actually says. Even if Covenant was hated by 99% of the people on this site and only loved by 1%, it wouldn't have made his argument stronger or weaker in any way.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 24, 2017, 01:17:18 PM
You feel the opening scenes are pointless and an example of bad direction yet I think they are vital, so am I wrong and you right? does this mean you have a greater appreciation of film direction than I? at time your arrogance astounds me.
Sigh...no, all it means is that you get personally offended by someone stating their opinion on a film...again.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 24, 2017, 01:17:18 PMSo you don't believe this site represents fans views in general? What exactly are you suggesting, that the majority of fans on this particular site have different views from other fans and are wrong about the film?
No, he believes the hardcore fans on this site represent a very small percentage of the general cinema-going public who went to watch the film, and he'd be right in believing that.
Polls held on here won't necessarily align with wider reality because we all have greater interest in and deeper knowledge of the series.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Aug 24, 2017, 01:29:53 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 24, 2017, 01:17:18 PMSo you don't believe this site represents fans views in general? What exactly are you suggesting, that the majority of fans on this particular site have different views from other fans and are wrong about the film?
No, he believes the hardcore fans on this site represent a very small percentage of the general cinema-going public who went to watch the film, and he'd be right in believing that.
Polls held on here won't necessarily align with wider reality because we all have greater interest in and deeper knowledge of the series.
Thank you.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Aug 24, 2017, 01:29:53 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 24, 2017, 01:17:18 PMSo you don't believe this site represents fans views in general? What exactly are you suggesting, that the majority of fans on this particular site have different views from other fans and are wrong about the film?
No, he believes the hardcore fans on this site represent a very small percentage of the general cinema-going public who went to watch the film, and he'd be right in believing that.
Polls held on here won't necessarily align with wider reality because we all have greater interest in and deeper knowledge of the series.
His post refers to fans, not the general cinema going public
Well since you are trying to convince us ON THIS SITE i would say that the FAN REVIEW poll on this site is totally relevant.
Relevant to what? How is being in the minority on this site make your points less valid?
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Aug 24, 2017, 01:27:30 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 24, 2017, 01:17:18 PM
So you don't believe this site represents fans views in general? What exactly are you suggesting, that the majority of fans on this particular site have different views from other fans and are wrong about the film?
Yet these percentages are largely in line with review pages such as RT as well. The same goes for Prometheus.
I don't believe this site (or any fan site, for that matter) represents fan views in general. I don't say, and never have said, that liking a film others dislike is wrong, and vice versa.
The point I am making is any poll of fans is a fair representation of the fanbase as a whole.
Quote
Statistically Covenant is regarded as above average whether you like that or not. As someone who loves the film I accept i'm in the minority. As someone who hates it, you also need to accept the fact you are the minority.
Did you even read what I wrote?
[/quote]
Yes
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Aug 24, 2017, 12:40:09 PM
What's even more problematic with your post is that you seem to think that what's important is that he's on the minority on this site, rather than what he actually says. Even if Covenant was hated by 99% of the people on this site and only loved by 1%, it wouldn't have made his argument stronger or weaker in any way.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 24, 2017, 01:17:18 PM
You feel the opening scenes are pointless and an example of bad direction yet I think they are vital, so am I wrong and you right? does this mean you have a greater appreciation of film direction than I? at time your arrogance astounds me.
Sigh...no, all it means is that you get personally offended by someone stating their opinion on a film...again.
[/quote]
I don't get personally offended by you or anyone else stating an opinion on this film or any other. You keep saying I do but you are very wrong.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 24, 2017, 01:43:42 PM
I don't get personally offended by you or anyone else stating an opinion on this film or any other. You keep saying I do but you are very wrong.
Then why would you say I'm arrogant and that I think I have "greater appreciation of film direction" than you? All I did was write a pretty detailed opinion about Scott's directorial issues with Covenant. I didn't so much as mention you.
Oh how I do love a forum!
It takes a while to figure out whose opinions you respect (whether you agree with them is another matter).
Less so to figure out who are the quacks!
Quote from: Rudiger on Aug 24, 2017, 01:47:54 PM
Oh how I do love a forum!
It takes a while to figure out whose opinions you respect (whether you agree with them is another matter).
Less so to figure out who are the quacks!
^this. You can respect someone's opinion while not sharing it.
Opinion: I think this movie sucks imo
Arrogance: This movie sucks
Why it sucks is usually a good way to deflate the arguments of folk on the boards. If you simply do not give any good argument of why you think the movie sucks then yes...you are arrogant. If you clearly state it's your opinion then hey! You ROCK!
Always be as constructive. State the case of the sucking and why. Same goes for the blind love and fanboyism. (see Prometheus boards ;-) ) Use valid arguments and don't cop-out with comics and director commentary or saying that EVERYTHING is fcking canon...but hey....THAT'S JUST MY OPINION!!!
Guys, you can still like the movie.
But you can't force us to like it.
My favourite Alien movie is the first one.
I don't hate Ridley, he is just not the artist he used to be.
Maybe I will post some things about the choices he has made with this one,
like the earth-like planet, and the classical Greek-Roman architecture.
But the flaws are so many that I could write a Thesis for the wrongs of the movie and
I don't have the time for this now.
Quote from: Hide on Aug 24, 2017, 04:19:16 PM
Guys, you can still like the movie.
But you can't force us to like it.
My favourite Alien movie is the first one.
I don't hate Ridley, he is just not the artist he used to be.
Maybe I will post some things about the choices he has made with this one,
like the earth-like planet, and the classical Greek-Roman architecture.
But the flaws are so many that I could write a Thesis for the wrongs of the movie and
I don't have the time for this now.
Nobody is trying to make you like it but that works both ways you know.
As for Ridley, his career is littered with devisive films and Covenant is one of them. He has also periodically made films that are extremely popular and acclaimed, the Martian being the most recent.
I don't think you can justify saying he's no longer the artist he once was when he can still produce films like the Martian.. He hasn't lost his mojo, he's always made films of varying quality from a populist point of view.
As many have pointed out, he has always been only as good as his script. What he always delivers is visually and Covenant is no different. You may not like the earth like aesthetic but it's still beautifully presented to my eyes anyway.
The Earth-like planet does no bother me at all. The colonists are heading towards a planet they intend to make their home, building log cabins on the lake etc. So we know right from the outset that if they've stumbled across a planet that is even more suited to their needs, it's going to be Earth-like. The trailers suggested it was paradise, so I was expecting it to be portrayed as a sort of empty Garden of Eden, which it was.
If this is the main thrust of your argument to dislike the film, (and it's the only you've mentioned repeatedly so it's a major issue for you) then it's a pretty feeble thing to get hung up on.
You haven't elaborated on much else except to assert that it's a masterclass in bad direction. It clearly isn't, so I remain baffled by your posts.
If it doesn't follow the story route you'd personally prefer then that's just a matter of opinion. You're just not doing a good job of presenting a reasonable argument.
Quote from: Hamster1066 on Aug 24, 2017, 07:13:40 PM
The Earth-like planet does no bother me at all. The colonists are heading towards a planet they intend to make their home, building log cabins on the lake etc. So we know right from the outset that if they've stumbled across a planet that is even more suited to their needs, it's going to be Earth-like. The trailers suggested it was paradise, so I was expecting it to be portrayed as a sort of empty Garden of Eden, which it was.
If this is the main thrust of your argument to dislike the film, (and it's the only you've mentioned repeatedly so it's a major issue for you) then it's a pretty feeble thing to get hung up on.
You haven't elaborated on much else except to assert that it's a masterclass in bad direction. It clearly isn't, so I remain baffled by your posts.
If it doesn't follow the story route you'd personally prefer then that's just a matter of opinion. You're just not doing a good job of presenting a reasonable argument.
I thought the planet looked quite beautiful and was certainly my idea of paradise. I also liked that Davids decaying necropolis was such a start contrast to thIs. Heaven and hell indeed.
Quote from: Hamster1066 on Aug 24, 2017, 12:01:26 PM
Perhaps Hide could supply an example or two of a film masterpiece so we can gauge his quality meter?
Since all he can provide is a vague 'go look at Alien' I'm going with 'No.'
Quote56% of fans on this site. 33% of fans on this site. This silly notion as if polls on this site accurately represent fan response to a film really needs to stop. Go visit the Prometheus fan reviews page. 66.7% loved it and 22.6% were on the fence. Would you say that it would be fair, based on those numbers, to refer to Prometheus as a well-liked film?
Yes. The scores by fans on this site are fairly in line with critics and or the wider movie going public (as far as we can tell from things like IMDB).
But as erroneous as some people trying to push personal agendas about how 'everyone hates Prometheus and Covenant' are - they shouldn't be 'stopped'. Just challenged.
Quote from: SM on Aug 24, 2017, 09:42:53 PM
Quote from: Hamster1066 on Aug 24, 2017, 12:01:26 PM
Perhaps Hide could supply an example or two of a film masterpiece so we can gauge his quality meter?
Since all he can provide is a vague 'go look at Alien' I'm going with 'No.'
I've looked at Alien, a very creepy slow burn horror film, but it doesn't give me any insight on why Covenant is, in Hides words, a masterclass in bad direction. Even if you don't like the script it's still more likely a masterclass in good direction despite that.
More than likely.
I'm really not sure what he's talking about. I went looking for examples of bad directing and someone mentioned Clerks, in terms of the basic and uninspired camera work (which Kevin Smith openly admits to). But is that bad direction, or is it bad cinematography? Similarly directors work with the writer, so when does bad writing become bad directing? Same with editing. Assuming the director doesn't have multiple roles - what exactly constitutes bad directing? Particularly in relation to Covenant.
You think this is a good movie, or even a masterpiece. That's fine.
There is no use of trying to make you not liking the movie. You liked it, good for you.
You got your Alien movie that you thought you deserved.
Can all of us that we hated it, post our opinion?
I don't have the time or the energy to explain to you why a completely earth-like
scenery handled like this doesn't work.
The movie is so flawed,for me, in so many levels
(story, direction, art direction, characterization, performances, settings, vfx)
that just analysing the earth-like setting is the tip of the iceberg.
some of the problems are in numerous videos like this,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCr_t8O7s9k
Quote from: Hide on Aug 25, 2017, 12:01:31 AM
I don't have the time or the energy to explain to you why a completely earth-like
scenery handled like this doesn't work.
But you have the time to post negative one-liners about Covenant in every thread...
Right.
Quote from: Hide on Aug 25, 2017, 12:01:31 AM
You think this is a good movie, or even a masterpiece. That's fine.
There is no use of trying to make you not liking the movie. You liked it, good for you.
You got your Alien movie that you thought you deserved.
Can all of us that we hated it, post our opinion?
I don't have the time or the energy to explain to you why a completely earth-like
scenery handled like this doesn't work.
The movie is so flawed,for me, in so many levels
(story, direction, art direction, characterization, performances, settings, vfx)
that just analysing the earth-like setting is the tip of the iceberg.
I'm interested in the detail of what you don't like - since you keep repeating ad nauseum how badly directed it was. And continue to fail to provide any detail about.
Stop trying to make out that people are trying to silence your opinion.
Quote from: SM on Aug 25, 2017, 12:11:36 AM
Stop trying to make out that people are trying to silence your opinion.
Exactly. We keep asking for a basis to this opinion, but all we're getting back is the Earth-llike planet issue in every post. We've now got a vague role call of all the departments involved in the film who it seems turned in shoddy work - but there's absolutely nothing mentioned to back it up. If Hide doesn't have the time, inclination or energy to argue the point, why post? Perhaps he should just +1 everything Paranoid Android says.
If fox asks outlets why the movie hasn't done as well as they expected it makes me worried that we might not get a sequel. Has anyone any idea what the feedback was?
Which outlets?
Maybe i used the wrong term. I meant sites like avpg . I don't really know who else. I guess scified. Don't really know any other sites.
Main thing fox asked a few sites for feedback.
Someone said on this forum mentioned it but who I can't remember.
I think Alien Covenant is a film in which particularly its direction is very strong, subtle and deliberate at the same time, as if the director himself spoke to us through it.
Quote from: oduodu on Aug 25, 2017, 04:37:25 AM
Maybe i used the wrong term. I meant sites like avpg . I don't really know who else. I guess scified. Don't really know any other sites.
Main thing fox asked a few sites for feedback.
Someone said on this forum mentioned it but who I can't remember.
Oh right. Yeah Hicks mentioned that.
Quote from: SM on Aug 25, 2017, 05:28:53 AM
Quote from: oduodu on Aug 25, 2017, 04:37:25 AM
Maybe i used the wrong term. I meant sites like avpg . I don't really know who else. I guess scified. Don't really know any other sites.
Main thing fox asked a few sites for feedback.
Someone said on this forum mentioned it but who I can't remember.
Oh right. Yeah Hicks mentioned that.
If they are consulting people like Hicks I wouldn't be worried we won't get a sequel based on feedback. Hicks has a well balanced view of the film and likes most of the first half so I would presume his feedback would be equally well balanced.
It might actually help make a sequel more successful. However, I don't know if they asked for feedback prior to Covenant?
Quote from: oduodu on Aug 25, 2017, 04:37:25 AMMain thing fox asked a few sites for feedback.
Fox also sent out some questionnaires to its fan contacts that were clearly fishing for feedback on the film.
Quote from: Salt The Fries on Aug 25, 2017, 04:52:28 AM
as if the director himself spoke to us through it.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmarketsmuse.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F10%2Fmb-star-wars-rareview-macro-oct-5-2015-marketsmuse.jpg&hash=55071cf6d9ae63095fe587536032eaa055a4ed57)
Movie making by committee. :(
Totally Earth like setting
-No mystery
-The viewers feel that they are on earth.
-No fear of the unknown
-No sense of threat
-It feels fake, viewers hardly can eat it up.
Fixing
If you want to maintain your Paradise setting for the story you want to tell.
-Change the color of things, uneasiness.
-Change the lighting (two small suns for example, or whatever)
-Change the day-night hours.
-Change the weather.
-Change the sound.
-Give scenes that show how the other planetary system looks from the ground.
-Make your crew look scared and wearing helmets even if the tests say they don't have to.
-Make the crew running tests for some time before landing.
-Send the Androids first to explore the planet (why just one Android? They are expendable)
-Don't make your crew acting like they went hiking. Smoking, like they went for a walk in the Park, smelling flora(!), comforting their woods with water etc...
And this could go on and on for the whole movie and all the decisions that were made...
Too much lol in all of this. You really don't get it do you?
-No mystery
Absolute spadefuls of it.
-The viewers feel that they are on earth.
Funny how the Enginneers are like us and need to live on an Earth like world.
-No fear of the unknown
The false sense of security pervading the entire planet is accompanied by absolute silence. There's definitely something not right going on here. We are told this in dialogue and in questions - no one feels safe, rifles are always at the ready, no one rushes off to go skipping through the woods. They're very cautious and at least one security team member is present.
-No sense of threat
Concealed threat is veiled. Of the wolf you know vs the wolf in the woods - the one hidden is much more of a concern.
-It feels fake, viewers hardly can eat it up.
Avoid eating at McDonalds. That shit aint food. Other than that, it was a convincing world to me.
None of this stuff needs fixing. Go home already.
-Windebieste.
Mixed feelings on the Planet.
Didn't bother me that it didn't feel Alien.
Don't know why it was called Paradise. Seemed a bit shit. Like Scotland in February.
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 09:15:49 AM
Mixed feelings on the Planet.
Didn't bother me that it didn't feel Alien.
Don't know why it was called Paradise. Seemed a bit shit. Like Scotland in February.
:D If it were Scotland in Feb it'd look more like the planet Hoth.
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 09:15:49 AMDon't know why it was called Paradise. Seemed a bit shit. Like Scotland in February.
:laugh:
Not enough rain.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 25, 2017, 09:24:34 AM
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 09:15:49 AM
Mixed feelings on the Planet.
Didn't bother me that it didn't feel Alien.
Don't know why it was called Paradise. Seemed a bit shit. Like Scotland in February.
:D If it were Scotland in Feb it'd look more like the planet Hoth.
Alien movie in the ice? Now that sounds like it has potential.
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 10:23:51 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 25, 2017, 09:24:34 AM
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 09:15:49 AM
Mixed feelings on the Planet.
Didn't bother me that it didn't feel Alien.
Don't know why it was called Paradise. Seemed a bit shit. Like Scotland in February.
:D If it were Scotland in Feb it'd look more like the planet Hoth.
Alien movie in the ice? Now that sounds like it has potential.
It was called AvP :D but yeah I think that could be pretty cool
Scotland in February sounds like paradise to me, I'm not a sun worshipper.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 25, 2017, 10:25:31 AM
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 10:23:51 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 25, 2017, 09:24:34 AM
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 09:15:49 AM
Mixed feelings on the Planet.
Didn't bother me that it didn't feel Alien.
Don't know why it was called Paradise. Seemed a bit shit. Like Scotland in February.
:D If it were Scotland in Feb it'd look more like the planet Hoth.
Alien movie in the ice? Now that sounds like it has potential.
It was called AvP :D but yeah I think that could be pretty cool
Yeah....but the best bit was in the ice! White Aliens? Kinda creepy.
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 11:12:01 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 25, 2017, 10:25:31 AM
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 10:23:51 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 25, 2017, 09:24:34 AM
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 09:15:49 AM
Mixed feelings on the Planet.
Didn't bother me that it didn't feel Alien.
Don't know why it was called Paradise. Seemed a bit shit. Like Scotland in February.
:D If it were Scotland in Feb it'd look more like the planet Hoth.
Alien movie in the ice? Now that sounds like it has potential.
It was called AvP :D but yeah I think that could be pretty cool
Yeah....but the best bit was in the ice! White Aliens? Kinda creepy.
Blood and snow is always effective visually.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 25, 2017, 11:30:25 AM
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 11:12:01 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 25, 2017, 10:25:31 AM
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 10:23:51 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 25, 2017, 09:24:34 AM
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 09:15:49 AM
Mixed feelings on the Planet.
Didn't bother me that it didn't feel Alien.
Don't know why it was called Paradise. Seemed a bit shit. Like Scotland in February.
:D If it were Scotland in Feb it'd look more like the planet Hoth.
Alien movie in the ice? Now that sounds like it has potential.
It was called AvP :D but yeah I think that could be pretty cool
Yeah....but the best bit was in the ice! White Aliens? Kinda creepy.
Blood and snow is always effective visually.
It would be a great sequence. Not knowing if its Rocks or Aliens under the snow
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Aug 25, 2017, 11:32:56 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 25, 2017, 11:30:25 AM
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 11:12:01 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 25, 2017, 10:25:31 AM
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 10:23:51 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Aug 25, 2017, 09:24:34 AM
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 09:15:49 AM
Mixed feelings on the Planet.
Didn't bother me that it didn't feel Alien.
Don't know why it was called Paradise. Seemed a bit shit. Like Scotland in February.
:D If it were Scotland in Feb it'd look more like the planet Hoth.
Alien movie in the ice? Now that sounds like it has potential.
It was called AvP :D but yeah I think that could be pretty cool
Yeah....but the best bit was in the ice! White Aliens? Kinda creepy.
Blood and snow is always effective visually.
It would be a great sequence. Not knowing if its Rocks or Aliens under the snow
oooh nice idea, I like that.
Quote from: Highland on Aug 25, 2017, 09:15:49 AM
Mixed feelings on the Planet.
Didn't bother me that it didn't feel Alien.
Don't know why it was called Paradise. Seemed a bit shit. Like Scotland in February.
Went to Milford Sound a few years back. It's utterly breathtaking.
Quote-Change the sound.
They did.
Quote from: SM on Aug 25, 2017, 11:52:40 AMWent to Milford Sound a few years back. It's utterly breathtaking.
It truly is epic.
Meanwhile Covenant's imdb score continues to plump. The notorious Prometheus sequel seats on 6.5 just 0.1 ahead of alien 3.
Quote from: Hide on Sep 01, 2017, 08:51:26 AM
Meanwhile Covenant's imdb score continues to plump. The notorious Prometheus sequel seats on 6.5 just 0.1 ahead of alien 3.
Cool. A plump score. Sounds good.
Not that imdb ever had much in the way of quality reviewers to judge anything from. Some of the most inane movie analysis on the internet is presented by imdb.
Quote from: Hide on Sep 01, 2017, 08:51:26 AM
Meanwhile Covenant's imdb score continues to plump. The notorious Prometheus sequel seats on 6.5 just 0.1 ahead of alien 3.
Still averages out to a two thirds to one positive consensus.
Finally gave it a proper rewatch along with the deleted scenes. The two major things I took his time:
1. The music maybe the second best score in the entire series (Alien)
2. The captain was an idiot.*
As for the deleted scenes, most were meh but the extended prologue was much better than the film version. Also the scene of David letting the captain smell his fingers was a tad tripe. :laugh:
* already established the first time, but damn he was even worse his time around.
I don't think he was an idiot, however he was a bit dumb to go looking for Rosey on his own when she'd been gone for a while and obviously not contactable.
His actions struck me as fine with the exception of egggate.
Now that I think of it, they were all a bit dumb towards the end. When Cole finds Rosey's body, none of them should be alone. Sure, Cole and Lope join up, but then Cole goes downstairs looking for Oram - on his own.
Also, Rosey was acting like she was in the bathroom of her room. Cool as if she wasn't at another planet full of dead alien bodies but as if she was in a studio shooting a movie...
Oh, wait...
At that point they had every reason to believe they were relatively safe. The problems come later when people start dying.
Not unlike in Alien when Ripley says 'we have to stick together' then everyone goes off seperately in different directions...
Quote from: SM on Sep 04, 2017, 04:19:30 AM
I don't think he was an idiot, however he was a bit dumb to go looking for Rosey on his own when she'd been gone for a while and obviously not contactable.
I don't think he's an idiot, either. I just thought he was inexperienced, which is why he doesn't think things through. He demonstrates his inexperience quite a lot - it's part of his character.
Quote from: PsyKore on Sep 09, 2017, 09:03:08 AM
Quote from: SM on Sep 04, 2017, 04:19:30 AM
I don't think he was an idiot, however he was a bit dumb to go looking for Rosey on his own when she'd been gone for a while and obviously not contactable.
I don't think he's an idiot, either. I just thought he was inexperienced, which is why he doesn't think things through. He demonstrates his inexperience quite a lot - it's part of his character.
True, he doesn't believe himself to be captain material, this is established right from the start. He's awkwardly trying to win people over and express authority quite poorly. It's not inconceivable that he would make poor judgement skills, learning on the job, unfortunately he's in a very unforgiving dilemma.
Watched it a couple of times on Blu-ray and love it more and more. It's a fantastic ride.
Looking back I love the design of Weyland's quarters aboard the Prometheus. With the opening of Covenant it really adds to that "home away from home" Weyland must have prepared for his return to the ship.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cap-that.com%2Fprometheus%2Fimages%2Fprometheus%282012%29_cap0881.jpg&hash=667261a44a180de43de5c383595ab012bbd1d444)
(https://blog.screenweek.it/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/alien-covenant-prologo.jpg)
Quote from: Alien³ on Sep 21, 2017, 05:59:19 PM
Watched it a couple of times on Blu-ray and love it more and more. It's a fantastic ride.
Looking back I love the design of Weyland's quarters aboard the Prometheus. With the opening of Covenant it really adds to that "home away from home" Weyland must have prepared for his return to the ship.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cap-that.com%2Fprometheus%2Fimages%2Fprometheus%282012%29_cap0881.jpg&hash=667261a44a180de43de5c383595ab012bbd1d444)
(https://blog.screenweek.it/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/alien-covenant-prologo.jpg)
I agree. The more I watch it the more I enjoy it.
I really like it, despite that the movie focuses mostly on David's crazy antics and not the engineers like we all expected. I really don't have a problem with it that David is supposedly the creator of the Alien species. Didn't care much that Shaw died either, because she was a very annoying character. The only thing that really bothered me was that they go all outside on this new planet without helmets, because it has an earth like atmosphere. Yeah, they might not be scientists like in Prometheus, but it's still dumb as hell. The fact that oram looks directly into an egg doesn't bother me, because he - unlike us - doesn't know anything about alien eggs. The speeded up impregnation and life cycle... oh well. The ending is grim: you can only wonder about what David will do with a spaceship full of colonists and especially Daniels. 8/10
The First Lady watched it on Saturday night.
Liked it overall, but didn't like Shaw being killed off, didn't really get David's motivations for killing her, and would've preferred seeing what happened with David and Shaw in between.
Interesting observation she made was that Planet 4 looked a lot like the planet from the start of Prometheus.
Quote from: SM on Nov 05, 2017, 11:56:56 PM
The First Lady watched it on Saturday night.
Liked it overall, but didn't like Shaw being killed off, didn't really get David's motivations for killing her, and would've preferred seeing what happened with David and Shaw in between.
Interesting observation she made was that Planet 4 looked a lot like the planet from the start of Prometheus.
Here's to the First Ladies: may their observations ever surprise us about our favorite things! ;D
Indeed. ;)
Drove over 100 miles through extreme weather to see Alien with my lady on the Alien day where they showed the sneak peek to Covenant. First saw the Covenant with my friends, beforehand i planned to go with my gf the second time, but that didn't happen. To make matters worse, my ex asked if it's worth a look. I advised her to skip it and see something else instead ;D
Quote from: FenGiddel on Nov 06, 2017, 02:41:36 AM
Quote from: SM on Nov 05, 2017, 11:56:56 PM
The First Lady watched it on Saturday night.
Liked it overall, but didn't like Shaw being killed off, didn't really get David's motivations for killing her, and would've preferred seeing what happened with David and Shaw in between.
Interesting observation she made was that Planet 4 looked a lot like the planet from the start of Prometheus.
Here's to the First Ladies: may their observations ever surprise us about our favorite things! ;D
Interesting bit of trivia, the scene in the beginning of the film with David and Weyland shows a lake with mountains in the background. That exact same Icelandic lake can also be seen during Prometheus' opening sequence.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f8/47/64/f84764038f8e98287a347e7d92d887b8.jpg)
(https://i.stack.imgur.com/7Svlp.png)
Yep
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Nov 06, 2017, 04:37:16 PM
That exact same Icelandic lake can also be seen during Prometheus' opening sequence.
Nice catch!
That mountain does look the same.
Is Ridley hinting this is Earth or is this another planet?
Thanks for that, 'Eagle Eye' Eighth! ;)
I remember someone at Scified made the connection back when the trailer came out. I originally thought it might be a mountain in NZ.
I think I asked if it was the same when we did our podcast on the trailer. Enoch thought it was Icelandic scenery, you thought it was NZ around where they filmed.
Do you spend the whole commentary bashing the film?
Bashing it repeatedly with love. ::)
Below is a link to the Renegade Cut video essay about "AC". That will be the basis of my brief review.
* The motivation to believe in God, to have a covenant (or agreement) with God, to be God's messenger (Orem), to be Lord/a god to oneself (David), are fascinating ideas imo.
Who is god in this scenario? Is it a celestial being or is it a belief in such a being? Therefore god is a human creation of is god beyond human comprehension?
Is god the Engineers who create life on other worlds?
Then is David the god killer who then will become god?
- I enjoy thinking about these things and "AC" to me does a good job blending these ideas into the story.
* A criticism of "AC" is that the crew makes mistakes where people die and therefore this is a flaw in the film. That is not applied to other science fiction movies where similar risks are taken but characters don't die.
- A certain kind of risk can only be criticized if the story problem is recognized (when it happened) in every major science fiction film.
- Since "War of the Worlds", the concept of alien pathogens is known, yet it's usually ignored in almost every alien contact SF movie.
In "ET" the alien got sick. How come the humans don't get sick? Wasn't that an unacceptable risk?
Why weren't precautions (helmets) for alien pathogens taken in "Aliens"? Wasn't that also an unacceptable risk?
- The Covenant crew not wearing helmets is a common trope in a science fiction movie. This happening on the Paradise planet is not a flaw in a science fiction film.
;)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QPuUerPZ_xc
Much as usually find 'whataboutery' lazy - why would they need precautions in Aliens?
No one got sick from any pathogen in Alien; Ripley had no infections after being exposed to the Alien.
Quote from: bb-15 on Dec 08, 2017, 06:13:36 PM
Why weren't precautions (helmets) for alien pathogens taken in "Aliens"? Wasn't that also an unacceptable risk?
- The Covenant crew not wearing helmets is a common trope in a science fiction movie. This happening on the Paradise planet is not a flaw in a science fiction film.
I assume you know the "out of story" explanation for that is a studio is not going to cough up a large paycheck to an actor with audience drawing power and cover up their face the majority of the film's run time.
Regarding "in story", it lacks common sense to even ask why they should take precautions in the film Aliens just because a certain character didn't get sick afterwards. You're right, BB-15, of course they should have taken precautions. I can't even imagine any exploratory team not implementing safeguard protocols.
Imagine this scenario: A friend of mine returns from Bangladesh, who assisted with an unknown virus ripping through their community. My friend wore no protection for who knows why, but he never got sick. Now it's my turn to go. Would I not bother with protection based on someone returning unaffected? No, I don't think so. You make an excellent point that little to no safeguard protocols is a SF trope that goes against common sense.
Quote from: bb-15 on Dec 08, 2017, 06:13:36 PM
Why weren't precautions (helmets) for alien pathogens taken in "Aliens"? Wasn't that also an unacceptable risk?
Of course it is.
But people only nitpick movies they don't like. Doesn't matter how absurd/hypocritical.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 08, 2017, 11:47:11 PM
But people only nitpick movies they don't like. Doesn't matter how absurd/hypocritical.
That goes without saying, you can apply that to more than just movies.
Anyway, I personally have no issue with that SF trope. Tell me your story, don't explain every single thing to me, as Cameron once pointed out. The same for the low rumble of engines from a massive mother ship in space. Yes, I get it, there's no sound in space. I don't care, I enjoy the audio enhancement. Pure realism is sometimes a one trick pony. No sound in space most famously represented in the classic 2001 ASO worked well, but it's not commonly employed in SF film making other than a few exceptions like Gravity.
I hate to say it but i really really did'nt like this film. It just did not even feel like a ridley scott film at all. I would have to put it last now out of all the films in the franchise, yes even AVP films are better. Just my opinion.
Quote from: SM on Dec 08, 2017, 09:37:04 PM
Much as usually find 'whataboutery' lazy - why would they need precautions in Aliens?
You could nitpick that Ripley had told them about the facehugger...
and.... an exposed face would be a risk (even if the spacesuit didnt much help Kane)...
But Gorman was an asshole so i bet he deemed that guns were all the protection they needed.
Quote from: worriors on Jan 02, 2018, 05:56:24 PM
I hate to say it but i really really did'nt like this film. It just did not even feel like a ridley scott film at all.
That's the trademark of the Alien films that people don't understand, they always defy audience expectations.
Even Aliens, the most popular, does this, by making it an action movie instead of another haunted house in space movie.
The reason people hate Covenant, is that they were expecting something else than what they got. They forgot what makes the Alien films so unique in the landscape of cinema.
People do so love to be told, without a trace of irony, why they don't like something by someone who does.
Well he said "It did not even feel like a Ridley Scott film at all." so I assumed that was why he didn't like the film. I could be wrong, he may not like it for some other reason, or maybe he (or she) has no reason for not liking the film. No problem at all with that. We are all different, with our own personal likes, dislikes and preferences.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 28, 2018, 02:57:43 AMThe reason people hate Covenant, is that they were expecting something else than what they got [...] ]Even Aliens, the most popular, does this, by making it an action movie instead of another haunted house in space movie
So
that's why I hate Aliens so much.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 28, 2018, 02:57:43 AMThe reason people hate Covenant, is that they were expecting something else than what they got.
No, they hate it because it's not a very good film.
It's not a good film it's a great film.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jan 30, 2018, 03:28:49 PM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 28, 2018, 02:57:43 AMThe reason people hate Covenant, is that they were expecting something else than what they got.
No, they hate it because it's not a very good film.
It was marketed as something other than we got, to be fair.
Was it really, though? It was pretty much a slasher film like the trailer, with a lengthy digression about a robot with daddy issues.
Quote from: KiramidHead on Jan 31, 2018, 03:50:27 AM
Was it really, though? It was pretty much a slasher film like the trailer, with a lengthy digression about a robot with daddy issues.
The Alien took a backseat to an android, and none of this was indicated in the trailers.
It was marketed as Alien 2.0, a reboot of Alien essentially. But also a sequel to Prometheus, that's why they included Fassbender in the trailer. It's a film with two narratives going on.
It's like if the Nostromo crew found another Ash on LV-426, and then the movie becomes about Ash. But the opening scene is Ash's 'birth' so you know the movie is going to focus on Ash.
Clearly Ridley is less interested in the Covenant crew, that's why the characters are a little less fleshed out than the Nostromo crew. This is nothing against the film, however, as the themes of Alien and Covenant are totally different.
I actually enjoyed this slight twist on the original Alien.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 31, 2018, 04:45:00 AMIt's like if the Nostromo crew found another Ash on LV-426, and then the movie becomes about Ash. But the opening scene is Ash's 'birth' so you know the movie is going to focus on Ash.
You are terrible at defending Covenant.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 31, 2018, 04:45:00 AMIt was marketed as Alien 2.0, a reboot of Alien essentially. But also a sequel to Prometheus, that's why they included Fassbender in the trailer. It's a film with two narratives going on.
Your argument that people simply reject things that aren't what they expected kinda falls flat on it's arse when you take into account the final act - which is the section most like the trailers and what we've seen before - is generally the most disliked part of the whole film.
I don't know what people don't like about it, but it's usually the surface narrative people complain about. Don't you recall Ridley Scott talking about "subtext". That's where the real film lies, and people don't seem to get it.
It's like if I said "The Shining is just a typical haunted house/slasher movie". There's so much going on in that film, so many layers. It gives the film a longer life as people can rediscover it. I mention The Shining because Ridley is a fan of Kubrick, even cast the bartender from The Shining in Blade Runner as Tyrell.
So all the complaints about it being too tropey, it's like that for a reason.
Oh, and Covenant doesn't need defending, if you want to waste your energy disliking a film, that's fine. There are far worse things in the world.
Quote from: Scorpio on Feb 02, 2018, 02:07:07 PM
Oh, and Covenant doesn't need defending,
But you keep doing it?
Quote from: Scorpio on Feb 02, 2018, 02:07:07 PM
I don't know what people don't like about it, but it's usually the surface narrative people complain about. Don't you recall Ridley Scott talking about "subtext". That's where the real film lies, and people don't seem to get it.
Being a fan of Covenant, could you explain to me the subtext you're referring to?
Quote from: SiL on Feb 04, 2018, 10:14:57 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Feb 02, 2018, 02:07:07 PM
Oh, and Covenant doesn't need defending,
But you keep doing it?
Why do you keep defending Alien? :)
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Feb 04, 2018, 10:29:54 AM
Being a fan of Covenant, could you explain to me the subtext you're referring to?
No, because you're better off reading many of the threads around here explaining it.
Quote from: Scorpio on Feb 04, 2018, 11:01:01 AM
No, because you're better off reading many of the threads around here explaining it.
Link me to one of those threads, then.
Cause right now I see you claiming things like 'Covenant is tropey for a reason' without specifying the reason, and that 'Covenant is about the subtext' without specifying what's Covenant's subtext.
Very weak argument.
Quote from: Scorpio on Feb 04, 2018, 11:01:01 AM
Why do you keep defending Alien? :)
When did I say Alien doesn't need defending ???
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 31, 2018, 04:45:00 AM
It was marketed as Alien 2.0, a reboot of Alien essentially. But also a sequel to Prometheus, that's why they included Fassbender in the trailer. It's a film with two narratives going on.
This is true though, in fact the ending minus the twist was a dumbed down, rushed, modern filmmaking remake of the Alien ending. But the trailers made me believe we were gonna know what happened to Shaw.
David killed her.
Quote from: D88M on Mar 26, 2018, 10:47:54 PM
This is true though, in fact the ending minus the twist was a dumbed down, rushed, modern filmmaking remake of the Alien ending.
What was so dumbed down about it?
Quote from: SM on Mar 26, 2018, 11:05:44 PM
David killed her.
Where is it stated that he killed her?
"Shaw didn't die in the crash."
"No."
"What did you do to her?"
"Exactly what I am going to do to you."
Which could just mean experiment on her.
Shaw may have died for some other reason, we don't know.
Yeah i'm sure David meant Daniels no harm, wasnt going to kill her or worse or anything.
David released the pathogen when Shaw was still alive. The pathogen infects all organic life. When Shaw woke up, she would have been infected, if she wasn't already from the events in Prometheus.
I'm sure she died of natural causes...
Wait did they ever confirm if David created the Alien or that he used the Engineers 'blueprints'.
Going by the film - David done it.
And to add my 2 cents, yeah there's no way David did not, not sadistically (?) kill Shaw. I'm pretty sure Scott intended to make it seem like he grew fond of her but ultimately his interests got the best....
The novelisation offered some wiggle room in terms the Aliens creation.
David himself said that he studied the ways of the Engineers during the Prologue segment. This means that he could have had access to an onboard computer on the Juggernaut and downloaded all the knowledge of the Engineers. This would then allow him to reconstruct the Engineer's ultimate creation - the Xenomorph. Yes, that being depicted on a mural inside one of the Engineer temples.
This isn't explained in the film because it is not necessary for the narrative, but it is heavily implied with the Prologue scene (yes it was cut from the movie, but it was officially released prior to the movie).
I rewatched Covenant again over the weekend. First time since the initial home release back in October (in the UK). I enjoy it still! I still dislike the inclusion and handling of the Alien and think the last third with it is disappointing but there's still so much I enjoy about the film! It still places 4th (the original trilogy all being tied for 1st) in my list. I absolutely love the soundtrack too.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jan 29, 2018, 09:00:11 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 28, 2018, 02:57:43 AMThe reason people hate Covenant, is that they were expecting something else than what they got [...] ]Even Aliens, the most popular, does this, by making it an action movie instead of another haunted house in space movie
So that's why I hate Aliens so much.
I had to wait for a moment . After this I had to laugh my ass off - epic , straight and so fitting . Man , I could
feel it ... :laugh:
I really agree on this one here . Prometheus and Covenant are simply not what a " average Alien Fan " would except . Or love to watch .
The characters aren ´t edgy . Nothing is really spooky at all ( and you might consider age right here , but give a damn ) . To say the least :
Look at this very last Alien in Prometheus . Totally lost on a far away outpost , right after having wittnessed the happy meal has left in a flying thing that
looks like a pretzel . This has got to be cruel , and so are these two stupid movies ...
Polished , but hollow .
You want hollow go watch Tomb Raider or many of the movies coming out. People have made dozens of videos, written essays and articles about the meanings behind Prometheus and Covenant. If it were hollow that means it has no substance, it is just popcorn entertainment for the masses. Ridley Scott does not make those kind of movies. There are some deep ideas behind them, and somehow this does not make them pretentious.
Alien Covenant is one of my favourite films at this moment. I have the bluray and have watched it at least a dozen times.
Yes, they did not need to include the alien, but that part is entertaining so it doesn't bother me. The alien kicked a lot of arse in this film, it had some great moments, some of the best in the series. One alien is actually a threat again, it hasn't been that way since Alien 3.
Two Aliens killed all of one people.
Three if you count the hosts.
The Neomorphs had a better strike rate than that.
Not sure it qualifies as 'kicking arse'.
I did like the scene where the alien took out that guy in davids lair. That was pretty cool.
I didn't realise until someone pointed it out, but I think it could've had a better reveal since it's chronologically the first Alien. I wonder if someone watching an Alien film for the first time might wonder - 'what the hell is that and where did it come from?'
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2018, 03:09:31 AM
Two Aliens killed all of one people.
1 dumb dude with a gun
2 people in a shower
2 hosts.
Bad results.
But they had a lot of energy and they seem like promising youngsters.
Oh yeah. Forgot about the shower.
Neomorphs still win but.
Ledward, Hallett, Karine, Ankor, Rosenthal (plus an assist for Faris and one synthetic hand).
Next iterations are superior :)
I can forgive a few youngsters for slacking a bit.
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2018, 03:28:38 AM
I didn't realise until someone pointed it out, but I think it could've had a better reveal since it's chronologically the first Alien. I wonder if someone watching an Alien film for the first time might wonder - 'what the hell is that and where did it come from?'
That intro was more like something out of an AvP movie. Given no time, no importance, just "Hi, it's here now!".
Hell, the only difference between the xeno and the Neomorphs in the film was one bled acid. Functionally, that was it. They moved the same, sounded the same, and acted the same.
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2018, 03:09:31 AM
Not sure it qualifies as 'kicking arse'.
They didn't have the time.
The other aliens had more time to kill.
If you go by kills per hour of life, the Covenant xenos win.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2018, 04:24:48 AMThat intro was more like something out of an AvP movie. Given no time, no importance, just "Hi, it's here now!".
Yeah, once the original
Alien shows up the film really goes off the rails in terms of pacing and editing.
It's a shame, if the stuff I disliked had been spread more evenly throughout the film, I'd probably like it more. But because it's all lumped in the final act, it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth as the credits start rolling.
Quote from: Scorpio on Apr 04, 2018, 05:46:35 AMThey didn't have the time.
The other aliens had more time to kill.
If you go by kills per hour of life, the Covenant xenos win.
What about when the Xenomorph attacked a crane for no reason and got itself smushed?
Or ran into a digger?
The Xenomorphs in
Covenant really did seem excruciatingly dumb at times.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 04, 2018, 08:22:06 AM
What about when the Xenomorph attacked a crane for no reason and got itself smushed?
Apparently that was because it was supposed to have thought it looked similar to itself/the Neo and as such a threat. That might have worked better had they left the fight with the Neomorph in. Not sure the intent would have translated too well on film though.
Big moving thing with what appeared to look like "teeth".....
Aliens are smart but... they are still animals (despite hudson's freak outs).
and these are proto-xenos. Lots to improve still.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 04, 2018, 08:22:06 AM
What about when the Xenomorph attacked a crane for no reason and got itself smushed?
I have no idea why it attacked the crane. Maybe it didn't attack it, maybe it was just trying to get better footing.
Doesn't matter to me, I like the scene. Everyone complains about the xeno getting sucked into space again but this had a unique death and people still complain.
Quote from: skhellter on Apr 04, 2018, 09:21:31 AMBig moving thing with what appeared to look like "teeth".....
Aliens are smart but... they are still animals (despite hudson's freak outs).
and these are proto-xenos. Lots to improve still.
The argument that it thought it was the teeth of some hostile creature kinda falls down when you consider the Alien then decides to jump
directly into its open jaws.
And didn't Scott come out and say this wasn't some Alien progenitor, it was meant to be the real deal?
Quote from: Scorpio on Apr 04, 2018, 10:14:55 AMEveryone complains about the xeno getting sucked into space again but this had a unique death and people still complain.
The death itself was cool. But that doesn't somehow forgive the fact that way they made it happen was dumb.
Also what about the second example I brought up? The Alien running straight into the truck because Daniels jumps aside was literally a
Road Runner gag. To quote
Snatch, that enormous excavator wasn't exactly incon-f*cking-spicuous, was it?
Its like they are such berserkers that they will attack anything that moves, living or otherwise.
Ridley's comment about the Xeno being crushed to pieces was silly, he said something about it still being alive and can regenerate. This is in contrast to Dan O' Bannon's comment that they are just animals and will die if they are shot. Since this supposed to be scifi and not supernatural fantasy, I will always agree with O' Bannon.
Quote from: SiL on Apr 04, 2018, 04:24:48 AM
Quote from: SM on Apr 04, 2018, 03:28:38 AM
I didn't realise until someone pointed it out, but I think it could've had a better reveal since it's chronologically the first Alien. I wonder if someone watching an Alien film for the first time might wonder - 'what the hell is that and where did it come from?'
That intro was more like something out of an AvP movie. Given no time, no importance, just "Hi, it's here now!".
Hell, the only difference between the xeno and the Neomorphs in the film was one bled acid. Functionally, that was it. They moved the same, sounded the same, and acted the same.
Its one of the few issues I have with the film. I like the scene, its a pretty cool kill but it just doesn't have enough impact for the very first sighting. Compare that to Brett and his first encounter and it just doesn't do the beast any justice at all and it irks me every time I watch the film.
I thought the adult reveal was underwhelming
It just drops down on some poor fellow and that's it. No drama, no awesome build up, nothing. It's a shame, too, because the chestburster moment was really powerful and I loved it, but the adult just didn't live up to it.
It is strange that they handled the first chest bursting with such reverence yet neglected to do the same when its fully grown.
QuoteThe argument that it thought it was the teeth of some hostile creature kinda falls down when you consider the Alien then decides to jump directly into its open jaws.
If it was an organic predator the Alien could actually damage it and the moment it bit the Alien it'd get an acid bath.
Still not exactly the smartest way to go about killing it, especially when you're the only Alien around.
Sure, you might take out whatever it is with your blood, but you still risk getting crushed in the process.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 04, 2018, 11:07:13 AM
The death itself was cool. But that doesn't somehow forgive the fact that way they made it happen was dumb.
Don't understand it, therefore dumb. Gotcha.
Didn't somebody say that it represented the hand of god?
QuoteAlso what about the second example I brought up? The Alien running straight into the truck because Daniels jumps aside was literally a Road Runner gag. To quote Snatch, that enormous excavator wasn't exactly incon-f*cking-spicuous, was it?
That's a reference to The Shining if it's a Road Runner gag. In one scene of The Shining you see Danny watching Road Runner on tv. "See? It's ok, he saw it on the television". Jack Torrance is like the Wile E Coyote.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Apr 04, 2018, 12:36:53 PM
It is strange that they handled the first chest bursting with such reverence yet neglected to do the same when its fully grown.
No that was just a brief glimpse of the alien, not the full reveal. Like how in the Director's Cut of Alien you see the alien briefly hanging from chains. Also in Alien 3 when it spits acid at Murphy. Those aren't full reveals.
The real reveal of the alien was when it exited the Citadel.
QuoteStill not exactly the smartest way to go about killing it, especially when you're the only Alien around.
"Quite literally, it doesn't have an education. The alien is not only savage, it is also ignorant."
Dan O'Bannon
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Apr 04, 2018, 12:36:53 PM
It is strange that they handled the first chest bursting with such reverence yet neglected to do the same when its fully grown.
No that was just a brief glimpse of the alien, not the full reveal. Like how in the Director's Cut of Alien you see the alien briefly hanging from chains. Also in Alien 3 when it spits acid at Murphy. Those aren't full reveals.
The real reveal of the alien was when it exited the Citadel.
[/quote]
I know its not a full reveal but it was still uninspired. Either way I found it underwhelming and I'm a fan of the film.
Quote from: Scorpio on Apr 04, 2018, 09:23:43 PMDon't understand it, therefore dumb. Gotcha.
::) Not what I said all.
Quote from: Scorpio on Apr 04, 2018, 09:23:43 PMThat's a reference to The Shining if it's a Road Runner gag. In one scene of The Shining you see Danny watching Road Runner on tv. "See? It's ok, he saw it on the television". Jack Torrance is like the Wile E Coyote.
:laugh: Of course it is.
Quote from: Scorpio on Apr 04, 2018, 09:23:43 PMNo that was just a brief glimpse of the alien, not the full reveal. Like how in the Director's Cut of Alien you see the alien briefly hanging from chains. Also in Alien 3 when it spits acid at Murphy. Those aren't full reveals.
The real reveal of the alien was when it exited the Citadel.
Except that you see it pretty clearly throughout the attack scene - it isn't shrouded in shadows or glimpsed briefly, you literally just see it - so those analogies are meaningless. It's revealed plenty right then and there.
Quote from: SM on Apr 05, 2018, 02:25:55 AM"Quite literally, it doesn't have an education. The alien is not only savage, it is also ignorant."
Dan O'Bannon
Which is the same as being instinctively stupid?
Not to mention the Aliens in the first four films seemed to get by just fine without leaping into nearby machinery.
Did any of them get attacked by nearby machinery?
The Queen could've easily grabbed Newt and snapped her neck in less time than it took for Ripley to stop her - or used her as a hostage if she was cluey enough. Instead she attacked Ripley.
The similarities are obvious.
The aliens of Hadley's Hope and Auriga had plenty of opportunity for some learning.
They had a better clue of their surroundings than the young G on Paradise.
Stop playing with that Ayy.
Put some respeck on that ayyy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqyJknx3rgU
From the Dutch version of Amazon.
Better rating than I expected.
Yes, most people who have seen it like the movie.
The setting of this movie . In the beginning , let ´s say the first 10 minutes or so ( when they just arrived ) , it wasn ´t that bad at all .
But - the moment we get to see the first guy who finally gives birth to this greyish white one , it suddenly all starts to fade off .
From that moment that David asks for the colonists that remain on the ship , the movie totally has lost credibility and the Alien aura .
just saying
Quote from: Uncanny Antman on May 11, 2017, 02:01:11 PM
Oh yeah, I just remembered that I was also seriously bummed by:
1. Super short incubation time.
2. Way too many shots of the Alien. I hated the POV shots, and I hated the shots of it just strolling around. Way to destroy the power of its image.
You mean " trolling " around , aren ´t you ? :laugh:
The incubation times never bothered me, don't why it gets so many people's goat.
Because it's inconsistent with what came before.
Not really, it only took a few hours at most in Alien, in Covenant it is about the same.
Movie time does not equal real time.
It was in the ballpark of 16 hours in Alien.
It was in the ballpark of 1 hour (maybe 2 tops) in Covenant for Oram. Lope may have been longer.
Quote from: SM on Apr 22, 2018, 01:44:37 AM
It was in the ballpark of 16 hours in Alien.
It was in the ballpark of 1 hour tops in Covenant for Oram. Lope may have been longer.
Lope could have been 16 hours because Daniels had time to sleep.
The Nostromo crew had already woken hours earlier, and humans can't go that long without sleep. They showed no signs of sleep deprivation, so if it was 16 hours plus the time from when they woke up, would've added up to far too long.
Time x (Nostromo crew waking up to Kane getting infected) + 16 hours = (over 20 hours at least, if you factor them going back and forth to the derelict)
They were never shown resting or suffering from sleep deprivation.
They'd been asleep for months at that point. Hardly sleep deprived.
Judging from the times take to get to to and from the Derelict back to the Nostromo, planet rotation times, Parker and Brett's repair 'estimates', the fact they weren't finished when they took off - around 16 hours.
Lope was maybe 5 hours tops - 8 bells sounds at 4:00, 8:00, or 12:00. Add on time to get back to the Covenant.
Quote from: Scorpio on Apr 21, 2018, 09:17:07 AM
The incubation times never bothered me, don't why it gets so many people's goat.
This. I always just assumed it was different with every host. Body size, general health, age of the facehugger, things like that. It seemed like it took a while for Ripley in Alien 3, and a bit of time for Kane as well, though not too awful long after the facehugger fell off. Oram did seem a bit rushed but, we're talking about a protomorph. Same with the neomorphs, it's a different creature entirely from the original alien. Even the runner was born formed. Can we assume the alien birth from Lope was similar to the Oram protomorph birth? I believe so.
The thing with lope was just implantation. So, allow me to put forward a theory here. If it only took Oram an hour or so, what if the facehugger that attacked lope didn't do the implantation. What if, in the hours that the covenant crew was busy after lope was stabilized, David did something. We know that he's carrying stuff around in him. What else might he have had up his sleeve? Maybe a mutant form of the spore? A scene with David attacking Lope in the Medbay would've been creepy. Maybe he pulled an Ash and stuffed an embryo down Lopes throat. Might've been a better reveal, at least, and a good throwback.
Even though that's probably not the case, the rapid implantation of Lope can likely be chalked up to the facehugger knowing it was being mortally wounded or in danger, and rushing the implantation to ensure the survival of the embryo. I guess, in an emergency, the little buggers can still get the job done. Perhaps birth was more rapid in Orams case because that facehugger had the extra time to see to things. Get the biological shop set up, as it were.
Neomorph's are neither here nor there. People don't have a problem with them. And Ripley was carrying a Queen.
Apparently Bechir said in an interview with Hicks that he was implanted through the wound in his cheek (I think?). Considering the short implantation and David attaching the 'medpac' to Lope's face on the lifter - it wouldn't surprise me.
Quote from: SM on Apr 22, 2018, 06:54:37 AM
Neomorph's are neither here nor there. People don't have a problem with them. And Ripley was carrying a Queen.
Apparently Bechir said in an interview with Hicks that he was implanted through the wound in his cheek (I think?). Considering the short implantation and David attaching the 'medpac' to Lope's face on the lifter - it wouldn't surprise me.
Exactly. Neomorph, Protomorph, Drone, Warrior, Queen. Between the types of creature, implantation method, and host biology, there's just too many factors to make maturation and eruption times a significant issue.
Quote from: SM on Apr 22, 2018, 06:54:37 AM
Apparently Bechir said in an interview with Hicks that he was implanted through the wound in his cheek (I think?). Considering the short implantation and David attaching the 'medpac' to Lope's face on the lifter - it wouldn't surprise me.
Yeah, he said it got in through the burn in his cheek.
Quote from: Huggs on Apr 22, 2018, 07:14:30 AM
Quote from: SM on Apr 22, 2018, 06:54:37 AM
Neomorph's are neither here nor there. People don't have a problem with them. And Ripley was carrying a Queen.
Apparently Bechir said in an interview with Hicks that he was implanted through the wound in his cheek (I think?). Considering the short implantation and David attaching the 'medpac' to Lope's face on the lifter - it wouldn't surprise me.
Exactly. Neomorph, Protomorph, Drone, Warrior, Queen. Between the types of creature, implantation method, and host biology, there's just too many factors to make maturation and eruption times a significant issue.
Excepting of course that it still seems way too fast in Covenant. As far as the audience is concerned - it's an Alien, a Xenomorph - not a Protomorph (is that even a thing?). They complained about the fast gestation in AvP and they're complaining here. Simply saying 'Neomorph, Protomorph, Drone, Warrior, Queen' is a lazy handwave. Neomorphs aren't relevant, Protomorphs aren't a thing, Drones and Warriors are the same thing, and Queens have longer gestations.
Quote from: SM on Apr 22, 2018, 03:01:28 AM
They'd been asleep for months at that point. Hardly sleep deprived.
They're crogenically frozen (or cooled), not sleeping.
QuoteJudging from the times take to get to to and from the Derelict back to the Nostromo, planet rotation times, Parker and Brett's repair 'estimates', the fact they weren't finished when they took off - around 16 hours.
Well you just answered yourself, they never finished the repairs, and they started the repairs before Kane got huggered.
QuoteLope was maybe 5 hours tops - 8 bells sounds at 4:00, 8:00, or 12:00. Add on time to get back to the Covenant.
And time for Daniels checking on 'Walter' and then going to make an omelette.
EDIT: And forgot, get Lope to medical.
QuoteThey're crogenically frozen (or cooled), not sleeping.
Guess that's why they didn't call it hypersleep - oh wait...
QuoteWell you just answered yourself, they never finished the repairs, and they started the repairs before Kane got huggered.
Yes. So?
QuoteAnd time for Daniels checking on 'Walter' and then going to make an omelette.
You don't add any time on for that. That's happening while the embryo is gestating.
Quote from: SM on Apr 22, 2018, 07:49:58 AM
Guess that's why they didn't call it hypersleep - oh wait...
Yeah I know but they're not the same thing.
QuoteQuoteWell you just answered yourself, they never finished the repairs, and they started the repairs before Kane got huggered.
Yes. So?
That means the repairs could have taken any time as they didn't finish them.
QuoteQuoteAnd time for Daniels checking on 'Walter' and then going to make an omelette.
You don't add any time on for that. That's happening while the embryo is gestating.
I don't understand what you're getting at.
QuoteThat means the repairs could have taken any time as they didn't finish them.
No it means it took less than the 25 hours it was going to take.
QuoteI don't understand what you're getting at.
Daniels making eggs is irrelevant to Lope's gestation. The events are concurrent.
Alien Covenant: My Favorite Frankenstein Film | Video Essay (2018)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvA94ubutQs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvA94ubutQs)
Interesting reflection on Covenant and his relation to Frankenstein
Further evidence that Covenant is very rich, and the most important sequel of the Alien franchise since 79.
They are sleeping on some level. Remember David watching Shaw dream?
Quote from: Stolen on May 21, 2018, 02:47:36 PM
Alien Covenant: My Favorite Frankenstein Film | Video Essay (2018)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvA94ubutQs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvA94ubutQs)
Interesting reflection on Covenant and his relation to Frankenstein
Further evidence that Covenant is very rich, and the most important sequel of the Alien franchise since 79.
That's awesome.
I'm coming around to liking Covenant. I was never married to Shaw. She just was not an inspired character, overshadowed by the work of Fassbender. Increasingly I think that just may be the acting. I can't put my finger on it...
I think I'm ok with David creating the aliens for the most part. There is still enough Alien mystery in there that it is compelling. I am honestly more bothered by the new born alien waving its arms, super short gestation periods, and impregnation period. That really got in my craw. These were some fairly established qualities of the Alien which went through the wringer just to suit the pacing of the film. Blah! ...and the newborn holding up its arms? Double blah! Plus cringeworthy too...
If you read the novelisation, David had 10 years to perfect his creation. The Engineers had billions of years. If you do the math, what are the odds that David's creation is entirely his own? Very small. But the movie doesn't spoonfeed us, the mural in Prometheus is enough. It's not just a matter of 'David creating the alien'.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 15, 2018, 12:24:38 AMIf you read the novelisation, David had 10 years to perfect his creation. The Engineers had billions of years. If you do the math, what are the odds that David's creation is entirely his own? Very small.
If you read the novelisation, it explicitly states the Engineers made them. But the film doesn't conform to that, and Foster himself said
he was the one who injected the idea of David not being the creator - it didn't come from the movie.
And in the movie David said he uses the goo as a base, so it's not like he's working from scratch. He's building on ages of work.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 15, 2018, 08:09:21 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 15, 2018, 12:24:38 AMIf you read the novelisation, David had 10 years to perfect his creation. The Engineers had billions of years. If you do the math, what are the odds that David's creation is entirely his own? Very small.
If you read the novelisation, it explicitly states the Engineers made them. But the film doesn't conform to that, and Foster himself said he was the one who injected the idea of David not being the creator - it didn't come from the movie.
Exactly because, it's unneeded exposition, it doesn't need to be in the movie.
All the information is given to you with the mural in Prometheus.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 15, 2018, 12:24:38 AM
If you read the novelisation, David had 10 years to perfect his creation. The Engineers had billions of years. If you do the math, what are the odds that David's creation is entirely his own? Very small. But the movie doesn't spoonfeed us, the mural in Prometheus is enough. It's not just a matter of 'David creating the alien'.
The film does spoonfeed us information. Here's some food on a spoon:
"Soon enough I began a bit of genetic experimentation of my own. Cross-breeding, hybridizing, what have you.
You engineered these, David?
Idle hands are the Devil's workshop, Captain."
That could mean he designed/built his own strain, from a basic blueprint from the Engineers (like the mural in Prometheus).
Again, the mural in Prometheus, the mural in Prometheus. How many times does it need to be said?
But whatever you choose to believe.
Because the mural is the deacon, not the xenomorph. In the furious Gods doc as they are constructing and painting the set, you can see for definite that it is the deacon.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Jun 16, 2018, 11:55:46 AMBecause the mural is the deacon, not the xenomorph. In the furious Gods doc as they are constructing and painting the set, you can see for definite that it is the deacon.
Which in some ways makes
less sense, given the convoluted steps they went through to spawn the Deacon in the film.
The mural could easily retroactively be a Neomorph anyway, which essentially is the same thing as a Deacon but the Deacon is different in the convoluted manner it was spawned.
The thing on the mural is either an early ancestor of the xenomorph, which David refined to make his version. Or it is the xenomorph, because the full mural depicts the lifecycle (you can clearly see a facehugger type creature).
So it's a combination of Engineers and David.
The goo makes Alien-looking things, that's consistent in the two prequels. The actual Alien, life cycle and all, is David.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 16, 2018, 08:42:27 PM(you can clearly see a facehugger type creature).
You can clearly see a bit of Giger's concept art for Alien pasted in to fill the gaps.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jun 17, 2018, 10:46:46 AM
You can clearly see a bit of Giger's concept art for Alien pasted in to fill the gaps.
So?
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Jun 16, 2018, 12:04:16 PM
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Jun 16, 2018, 11:55:46 AMBecause the mural is the deacon, not the xenomorph. In the furious Gods doc as they are constructing and painting the set, you can see for definite that it is the deacon.
Which in some ways makes less sense, given the convoluted steps they went through to spawn the Deacon in the film.
Aye, that's why I had a problem with it being a deacon. As was said though, it could be retconned to be just a generic Alien-like Protoalien thing that the black goo seems to creature. That I don't have an issue with. Would have been interesting to see what the Xeno-Fifield would have turned out like if they'd finished the effect or gone down that route.
Watched it again yesterday and unlike Prometheus, which after repeat viewings, i have grown to at least accept...
I just found a repeat viewing of this made me focus on all the aspects that really didn't make any bloody sense and have been discussed to death on here and YT since it's release.
If it wasn't for Fassbender, who i think could make the writing of a shopping list, compelling viewing, i don't think i would of watched it again.
I can't say I hate it, i just don't find much to like in it, if that makes sense?.
Quote from: lost dragon on Jul 14, 2018, 08:36:56 PM
I can't say I hate it, i just don't find much to like in it, if that makes sense?.
It make sense. I've grown to appreciate certain things about Covenant myself. But none of it stops my mind from interpreting what I see and hear from the movie as stuff that just resembles (forgive me) bad fanfiction. It wasn't all guns and marines and "splosions" and dropships. But it felt like it was written by a fan of Prometheus, desperately trying to find something intelligent or dramatic to say, yet they lacked the ability to properly do so.
It's a marvelous looking film. Fantastic really. But the script, the story overall, was one of the blandest I've ever seen. It should never have left paper. I felt more connection to the characters, more excitement, more satisfaction with Resurrection, than I ever will with Covenant. I finish Resurrection at least, feeling as though I've just watched an Alien movie. I finish Covenant, feeling as though I've watched a well shot mess.
Covenant does stand as a metaphor though, but I think it's for the franchise. David is like the prequels. Malfunctioning, desperately trying to understand what it is and how to create perfection. Dreams of grandeur yet to be realized, and an uncompromising sense of superiority. Lashing out and destroying those that came before it (its betters). At this point, the franchise (like David's mind) is in pure freefall. Narrative freefall.
I watch this only for the last minutes. The real Xeno was the highlight.
It felt a bit too aggressive, but kinda real unlike the Neo who could totally hide and open his mouth in cartoonish manner.
I can live with David as villain since the engineers are successfully ruined. They can't even give them the same look. How cheap is that??
3/5
Without real Xeno 2/5
PS: Really brutal backburster scene, though. That was intense. :o
:D @ Scorpio
As I take a look at your Forum Avatar - especially in connection to what ´s written right below this picture - can I say that you have some sort
of special little thing going on here ? Like , you more the Predator-kind-of-guy , right ? Always two steps faster than your prey , you get the picture...
You do >-> for sure .
Quote from: Gaunchola on Jul 28, 2018, 07:44:20 PM
:D @ Scorpio
As I take a look at your Forum Avatar - especially in connection to what ´s written right below this picture - can I say that you have some sort
of special little thing going on here ? Like , you more the Predator-kind-of-guy , right ? Always two steps faster than your prey , you get the picture...
You do >-> for sure .
???
I remember very well the day when I went watching Alien Covenant. It was a pretty day. Clear sky. I had spent some quality time with a friend in the previous hours. I was so hopeful and excited when entering the theater.
1 - I loved Prometheus to DEATH (despite its flaws)
2 - Covenant was a break from YEARS of complete boycott of Hollywood movies (for political, artistic and aesthetics reasons)
3 - It was was also one month after I moved out from Paris, setting in East France instead.
So watching Alien Covenant was an important step for me: a sequel to a movie I adored, a way to say "Hello again" to USA cinema and a gift to myself, to welcome myself into my new city.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.over-blog-kiwi.com%2F0%2F86%2F51%2F78%2F20151117%2Fob_f613a9_alien-covenant.jpg&hash=7360c7c7dd23769a082e717cd8549f2f03533708)
And... what I saw was pure shit.
I hated the film so much. It destroyed everything I loved in Prometheus: the relative absence of Aliens (because I share Scott's feeling about this, the traditional Alien is cooked, it's been overdone), the grandiose atmosphere, the existential themes, the splendid scenery, the amazing Engineers design and the biomechanical technology.
In a lot of ways, it felt like a caricature of Prometheus, and simultaneously an insult to it (particularly Shaw's offscreen fate). The intriguing Deacon was turned into the useless Neomorphs, the ambiguous David became a straight serial killer and half-symbolical rapist, the human crew was ten times more stupider, Weyland in the prologue was gratuitously unsensitive and tyrannic, etc etc.
Other choices are just terrible, such as the pseudo-primitive architecture or the forest world... I'm sick to death of Canada Planet.
f**k Ridley Scott. f**k this movie. I was so joyful and confident in the movie when entering the theaters, I just wanted to give a nice gift to myself, Agent Cooper style.
(https://d12qk6n9ersps4.cloudfront.net/2808522/medium-clean.jpg)
And WHAT A GIFT IT WAS.
I just hoped for a nice Alien flick, I wasn't even hoping for Prometheus 2, I just wanted a nice horror movie with good monsters, a decent story.
For very personal reasons, this is the WORST MOVIE.
And you? How did you feel?
It met my expectations.
The prologue's perhaps the best isolated interaction/section - of the entire Alien Franchise.
Peter Weyland Prologue > Waste of a Geriatric Guy Pearce.
Neomorph > Male/Female/Engineer prodigy, in Narrative and Aesthetic.
Prometheus is ambiguity for ambiguity's sake, it has no point.
We already have a review thread. (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=57277.0)
(https://y.yarn.co/758370e8-0f6c-42fb-abcb-396a5e707fe3_text_hi.gif)
Well, this wasn't a real review, more like personal feelings (but I guess there was a review element), I wanted to share the way I felt and to know how other people experienced the movie, which is a vastly different thing than to analyze exactly how bad is it (I did it in another text).
But since apparently people don't have really INTENSE and PERSONAL feelings towards the movie, you can lock or delete this thread! I've already added TH3 F33LS to the review thread.
I enjoyed it on my first viewing. Aside from a few elements like the rushed ending with the alien aboard the Covenant and David creating the Alien.
Overall it was a far more satisfying experience than Prometheus, for me anyway.
Exactly what we got.
Which was expected.
Alien Covenant rules.
Why are people on the net so hostile about Covenant? "F**k Ridley Scot, F**k this movie." Geez...
I for one loved it, but I didn't like Prometheus. But I don't say "f**k Ridley Scott" because of it.
Limited vocabulary I suspect.
Quote from: PsyKore on Feb 13, 2019, 06:26:03 AM
Why are people on the net so hostile about Covenant? "F**k Ridley Scot, F**k this movie." Geez...
I for one loved it, but I didn't like Prometheus. But I don't say "f**k Ridley Scott" because of it.
There are a certain amount of people that didn't like the moving away from alien and towards artificial intelligence. When covenant cemented that direction it pissed those people off, big time. But even the people who love it can admit it has narrative and third act issues. So as a film, it is legitimately flawed in ways.
Quote from: PsyKore on Feb 13, 2019, 06:26:03 AM
Why are people on the net so hostile about Covenant? "F**k Ridley Scot, F**k this movie." Geez...
I for one loved it, but I didn't like Prometheus. But I don't say "f**k Ridley Scott" because of it.
Fandoms tend to be toxic.
Quote from: Huggs on Feb 13, 2019, 06:54:47 AM
Quote from: PsyKore on Feb 13, 2019, 06:26:03 AM
Why are people on the net so hostile about Covenant? "F**k Ridley Scot, F**k this movie." Geez...
I for one loved it, but I didn't like Prometheus. But I don't say "f**k Ridley Scott" because of it.
There are a certain amount of people that didn't like the moving away from alien and towards artificial intelligence. When covenant cemented that direction it pissed those people off, big time. But even the people who love it can admit it has narrative and third act issues. So as a film, it is legitimately flawed in ways.
That's all fine. I understand it. But there's no reason to then go on to say "f**k Ridley Scott, etc". It's just so silly.
I don't like Ridley Scott. He acts like he has a spine and he has not.
In the 80s he read one bad critique of one of his movies by Pauline Kael (the excellent analysis Baby, The Rain Must Fall (https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2016/12/28/blade-runner-review-pauline-kael/)) and decided to literally NEVER READ A REVIEW EVER AGAIN. It was the start of Coward Scott.
In recent days, he decided to move away from Alien with Prometheus, to propose a fresh story in the same universe, and in the end he chickened out, keeping the Deacon which was clearly useless to the story and painting it dark blue to have a more Alien-like monster, and reverting from the Aliened Fifield to a shitty zombie, so in the end instead of a movie about Engineers and interesting bioweapons we have a movie with zombies and pseudoaliens.
Then with Covenant, he literally said "They want Aliens? I'll give them Aliens" and proceeded to make a film with Aliens as tools and canon fodder, because Covenant is like this, the beasts are dangerous but also easy to kill and literal tools to David's will. He also made his movie a celebration of ethnocentric aesthetics and rape culture.
Not to mention the guy allowed Giger to be kicked out of the production of Prometheus (by the decor designer if I remember right), way to be grateful towards an elderly and weakened man who was one of his greatest collaborators and the creator of the legendary monster and biomechanical imagery in the first place. This was the last straw in a history of Hollywood people treating Giger like shit.
But that doesn't surprise anyone coming from a man who also said, about the whitewashing of Exodus, "I can't mount a film of this budget, where I have to rely on tax rebates in Spain, and say that my lead actor is Mohammad so-and-so from such-and-such. I'm just not going to get it financed. So the question doesn't even come up."
Ridley Scott probably isn't a "evil" or "stupid" guy. However, he is a coward joyfully complying with studio decisions. Gone since decades is the man who imposed Giger, now he's Giger's backstabber. Gone since decades is the storyteller with multiple space jockey theories. Now he's the guy who says "Oh whatever, the black goo does whatever, hahaha". Gone since decades is the guy who cared about anything in ethics, politics or aesthetics.
So yeah. f**k Ridley Scott.
Quote from: CelticP on Feb 13, 2019, 06:56:09 AM
Quote from: PsyKore on Feb 13, 2019, 06:26:03 AM
Why are people on the net so hostile about Covenant? "F**k Ridley Scot, F**k this movie." Geez...
I for one loved it, but I didn't like Prometheus. But I don't say "f**k Ridley Scott" because of it.
Fandoms tend to be toxic.
The above shows they can also be verbose.
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 13, 2019, 04:05:22 PM
I don't like Ridley Scott. He acts like he has a spine and he has not.
In the 80s he read one bad critique of one of his movies by Pauline Kael (the excellent analysis Baby, The Rain Must Fall (https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2016/12/28/blade-runner-review-pauline-kael/)) and decided to literally NEVER READ A REVIEW EVER AGAIN. It was the start of Coward Scott.
In recent days, he decided to move away from Alien with Prometheus, to propose a fresh story in the same universe, and in the end he chickened out, keeping the Deacon which was clearly useless to the story and painting it dark blue to have a more Alien-like monster, and reverting from the Aliened Fifield to a shitty zombie, so in the end instead of a movie about Engineers and interesting bioweapons we have a movie with zombies and pseudoaliens.
Then with Covenant, he literally said "They want Aliens? I'll give them Aliens" and proceeded to make a film with Aliens as tools and canon fodder, because Covenant is like this, the beasts are dangerous but also easy to kill and literal tools to David's will. He also made his movie a celebration of ethnocentric aesthetics and rape culture.
Not to mention the guy allowed Giger to be kicked out of the production of Prometheus (by the decor designer if I remember right), way to be grateful towards an elderly and weakened man who was one of his greatest collaborators and the creator of the legendary monster and biomechanical imagery in the first place. This was the last straw in a history of Hollywood people treating Giger like shit.
But that doesn't surprise anyone coming from a man who also said, about the whitewashing of Exodus, "I can't mount a film of this budget, where I have to rely on tax rebates in Spain, and say that my lead actor is Mohammad so-and-so from such-and-such. I'm just not going to get it financed. So the question doesn't even come up."
Ridley Scott probably isn't a "evil" or "stupid" guy. However, he is a coward joyfully complying with studio decisions. Gone since decades is the man who imposed Giger, now he's Giger's backstabber. Gone since decades is the storyteller with multiple space jockey theories. Now he's the guy who says "Oh whatever, the black goo does whatever, hahaha". Gone since decades is the guy who cared about anything in ethics, politics or aesthetics.
So yeah. f**k Ridley Scott.
Well, Ridley actually sometimes acts as dick. But i think it's better to separate creations from their creator and see them alone no matter how many good or bad traits he has.
I also can unterstand him not willing to read any reviews because i myself barely can stand any kind of critique.
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 13, 2019, 04:05:22 PM
I don't like Ridley Scott. He acts like he has a spine and he has not.
In the 80s he read one bad critique of one of his movies by Pauline Kael (the excellent analysis Baby, The Rain Must Fall (https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2016/12/28/blade-runner-review-pauline-kael/)) and decided to literally NEVER READ A REVIEW EVER AGAIN. It was the start of Coward Scott.
In recent days, he decided to move away from Alien with Prometheus, to propose a fresh story in the same universe, and in the end he chickened out, keeping the Deacon which was clearly useless to the story and painting it dark blue to have a more Alien-like monster, and reverting from the Aliened Fifield to a shitty zombie, so in the end instead of a movie about Engineers and interesting bioweapons we have a movie with zombies and pseudoaliens.
Then with Covenant, he literally said "They want Aliens? I'll give them Aliens" and proceeded to make a film with Aliens as tools and canon fodder, because Covenant is like this, the beasts are dangerous but also easy to kill and literal tools to David's will. He also made his movie a celebration of ethnocentric aesthetics and rape culture.
Not to mention the guy allowed Giger to be kicked out of the production of Prometheus (by the decor designer if I remember right), way to be grateful towards an elderly and weakened man who was one of his greatest collaborators and the creator of the legendary monster and biomechanical imagery in the first place. This was the last straw in a history of Hollywood people treating Giger like shit.
But that doesn't surprise anyone coming from a man who also said, about the whitewashing of Exodus, "I can't mount a film of this budget, where I have to rely on tax rebates in Spain, and say that my lead actor is Mohammad so-and-so from such-and-such. I'm just not going to get it financed. So the question doesn't even come up."
Ridley Scott probably isn't a "evil" or "stupid" guy. However, he is a coward joyfully complying with studio decisions. Gone since decades is the man who imposed Giger, now he's Giger's backstabber. Gone since decades is the storyteller with multiple space jockey theories. Now he's the guy who says "Oh whatever, the black goo does whatever, hahaha". Gone since decades is the guy who cared about anything in ethics, politics or aesthetics.
So yeah. f**k Ridley Scott.
.. Wow.
Quote from: SM on Feb 13, 2019, 10:36:37 PM
Quote from: CelticP on Feb 13, 2019, 06:56:09 AM
Quote from: PsyKore on Feb 13, 2019, 06:26:03 AM
Why are people on the net so hostile about Covenant? "F**k Ridley Scot, F**k this movie." Geez...
I for one loved it, but I didn't like Prometheus. But I don't say "f**k Ridley Scott" because of it.
Fandoms tend to be toxic.
The above shows they can also be verbose.
:D
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 13, 2019, 04:05:22 PM
Spoiler
I don't like Ridley Scott. He acts like he has a spine and he has not.
In the 80s he read one bad critique of one of his movies by Pauline Kael (the excellent analysis Baby, The Rain Must Fall (https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2016/12/28/blade-runner-review-pauline-kael/)) and decided to literally NEVER READ A REVIEW EVER AGAIN. It was the start of Coward Scott.
In recent days, he decided to move away from Alien with Prometheus, to propose a fresh story in the same universe, and in the end he chickened out, keeping the Deacon which was clearly useless to the story and painting it dark blue to have a more Alien-like monster, and reverting from the Aliened Fifield to a shitty zombie, so in the end instead of a movie about Engineers and interesting bioweapons we have a movie with zombies and pseudoaliens.
Then with Covenant, he literally said "They want Aliens? I'll give them Aliens" and proceeded to make a film with Aliens as tools and canon fodder, because Covenant is like this, the beasts are dangerous but also easy to kill and literal tools to David's will. He also made his movie a celebration of ethnocentric aesthetics and rape culture.
Not to mention the guy allowed Giger to be kicked out of the production of Prometheus (by the decor designer if I remember right), way to be grateful towards an elderly and weakened man who was one of his greatest collaborators and the creator of the legendary monster and biomechanical imagery in the first place. This was the last straw in a history of Hollywood people treating Giger like shit.
But that doesn't surprise anyone coming from a man who also said, about the whitewashing of Exodus, "I can't mount a film of this budget, where I have to rely on tax rebates in Spain, and say that my lead actor is Mohammad so-and-so from such-and-such. I'm just not going to get it financed. So the question doesn't even come up."
Ridley Scott probably isn't a "evil" or "stupid" guy. However, he is a coward joyfully complying with studio decisions. Gone since decades is the man who imposed Giger, now he's Giger's backstabber. Gone since decades is the storyteller with multiple space jockey theories. Now he's the guy who says "Oh whatever, the black goo does whatever, hahaha". Gone since decades is the guy who cared about anything in ethics, politics or aesthetics.
So yeah. f**k Ridley Scott.
Oh my. And I thought I had problems with the guy. A celebration of ethnocentric aesthetics and rape culture? That's a good one. Rape has been part of Alien since the beggining so isn't that like going back to the roots? Yay. AVPR style. Hard R.
Anyway I'm saving your comment since I don't see that everyday and want to lol again later.
I... literally wrote multiple texts about how Alien was about rape, the first one back in 2014, years before Covenant came out. I know how much it is about rape as well as any fan. I know all about O'Bannon's quote (which I used repeatedly) and about the symbolism (difficult to miss).
Covenant's approach to rape is basically a bad caricature of the first movie's. The Covenant version of David is basically an extension of Ash, to the extent of the multiple symbolical rapes and the protective attitude towards the creature. David is an even more direct expression of the robotic "Man" than Ash was.
The fact David is the
bad guy doesn't escape me either. (I was surprised you didn't bring it up if you were to dismiss the "rape culture" political criticism.)
Alien is about rape, okay. David is the bad guy, okay. Really, all of this is taken into account and all of this is okay.
The trouble comes from the fact
David is incredibly enhanced and iconized. David is the true star of the movie. The story questions his level of exactitude (he fails to quote people accurately) and depicts him as incredibly violent and abusive (and possibly sadistic), but he's not merely a devil, he's also a messianic figure. He first appears with Jesus-like long hair, in a very monk-like hook. He's truly the saint and the creator of this unholy planet; a negative saint, a negative creator, but a saint and a creator nonetheless. His intelligence, speed and power are relentlessly displayed, his emotions, memories, interrogations and personal choices are explored. David is THE character of Alien Covenant; compared to him, the rest of the cast (even Daniels) is mere shadow.
Ridley Scott focuses on David during the entire movie, starts the story with his birth, sublimates each of his appearances (compare with the neomorphs and xenomorphs which are basically canon fodder, tools for David's will and ways to dynamize the movie), gives him victory repeatedly, and allows him complete triumph.
The movie doesn't say David is right, but it romanticizes and idealizes him, while clearly establishing him as a symbolic, thematic and literal rapist (how do you call someone who literally organizes the unwilling penetration and fecundation of other individuals?).
The rapist depicted as beautiful, cunning and fascinating; as well as the deepest character in the movie: this is rape culture.
Quote from: Kradan on Feb 13, 2019, 10:44:47 PM
Well, Ridley actually sometimes acts as dick. But i think it's better to separate creations from their creator and see them alone no matter how many good or bad traits he has.
I'm a half-death of the author person, I think we have to evaluate creations by taking and/or not taking into account the creator's profile. Both approaches are valid for good criticism and analysis. (The cultural context can be also very important.)
Quote from: Kradan on Feb 13, 2019, 10:44:47 PMI also can unterstand him not willing to read any reviews because i myself barely can stand any kind of critique.
Yeah, I understand it too, especially since Kael just
murdered him in her critique (really, read it if you haven't already, it's an amazing but merciless piece).
It just... well, combined with other aspects of the character, it doesn't make me like him.
Let's be clear here. In daily life, maybe Ridley is a very nice guy. Maybe he's ethical. Maybe he's adorable. He never insulted his entire crew for a start (yeah, low standards, but it's actually common in the movie industry to do so, directors can be almost as terrible as producers). And he had some amazing ideas in a lot of his movies, and a very honest and raw artistic approach for sure (except in Covenant but that's a personal opinion rather than a fact).
But I don't know Ridley the man. I just know (a little of) Ridley the director. And as a director I really don't like him. I don't hate him (to hate someone, you have to really know them first), I don't despise him, but I don't like him.
Maybe the words "f**k him" were a little strong. I dunno. It was my emotion at the moment, and I didn't use the verb by lack of vocabulary (with all due respect to SM's unmerciful but understandable thought), I used the verb because it was the best fit for the emotion I felt in the theater in 2017. A feeling of betrayal and disappointment, culminating in sheer rage and rejection.
I don't think anyone could accuse your vocabulary of being lacking.
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 14, 2019, 03:00:41 AM
The movie doesn't say David is right, but it romanticizes and idealizes him, while clearly establishing him as a symbolic, thematic and literal rapist (how do you call someone who literally organizes the unwilling penetration and fecundation of other individuals?).
The rapist depicted as beautiful, cunning and fascinating; as well as the deepest character in the movie: this is rape culture.
LOL Literal? He literally can't rape. That's why he is angry, he is mad because his daddy forgot to give him a willy. He is angry because he can't have Shaw so he kills her. He kills a woman because he can't have her, he is a space Elliot Rodger. He is an angry crying involuntary celibate.
Is that beautifull, cunning and fascinating? He tries to shows himself that way but it doesn't take long to realize he is emotionally unstable because he is nothing more than a malfunctioning android that wants to see humans get raped by monsters because he is jelly of us as well as the Engineers. The way he killed those alpha chad Engineers that get all the fun was like a beta uprising fantasy.
Shit I think I just got too deep into Ridley's mind. Time to take a break.
There are more weapons in the arsenal than just the schvanstuka. David would do well to remember that.
Weyland never told him about the birds and the bees. As if being a bad dad to Vickers hasn't enough.
Samhain, know that your impeccable analysis of David as Incel Terminator almost redeems the movie in my eyes. That is beautiful. ;D
SM> Aw, thank you. :o
;)
David is also portrayed as fundamentally erratic, mad, error prone, neurotic and lacking in self-awareness in regards to the lesson of hubris in Ozymandias. It's easy to confabulate, but let's not lose our brains. (Also, Giger was brought on Prometheus late in pre-production, Ridley works fast so had to keep moving, unless I see a source contrary to that report I'm calling bs).
Found back the origin of the idea of "Giger fired from the Prometheus set". It's given without a source, a post of a discreet member of a French forum dating back to 2011. Translated:
Quotekasstoivite
Posted 11 December 2011 - 04:17 AM
Sorry to throw off your groove about Giger and PROMETHEUS but he wasn't fully involved in this movie either.
He started working but thanks to a drama queen festival by Arthur Max, Scott's prod designer since over a decade now, Giger was fired. Max wanted Giger to be placed under his orders and paid by his department like all other concept artists (and also to avoid meeting the same fate than the ALIEN prod designer who had to share his Oscar with Giger back then) and of course Giger refused, desiring to answer to Scott and Scott only.
With a little emotional blackmail from Max's part, Scott chose to support him rather than Giger.
One can already notice that the designs of the Engineer ship (the Engineer is a member of the space jockey species, named the Engineers by Scott) are more mechanical than biological, cleaner, less organic. And the sexual aspect was completely discarded.
Don't expect to see a big vagina as a spaceship entrance ^^
Giger's concepts were recycled and finalized by other artists such as Carlos Huante who's a real talent in his own right.
Other forum members asked him to provide a source, but he refused and said there was never going to be official data, the production having no interest in communicating on Giger being tossed out.
So apparently it's just a rumour. If anyone has heard anything about this supposed drama...
Anybody who would screw over giger is an @$$ of the highest order.
Yeah I don't know about all that, Arthur Max may have been running the show production wise but Giger was quite old/frail at the time, I doubt even if he'd been brought on that he would've been very active beyond some sketches.
He comes into the production office to look at the art and draw the mural in the Prometheus making off doc.
Like there's proof of this. He was never a big part. Just a friendly gesture.
Yep, he did some sketches, it was lucky they even got him so late in the game, Ridley and Giger always had a good relationship; Giger was in awe of him during Alien's production, said he was a "genius".
I don't think it's true at all that Giger got kicked off Prometheus.
Both Prometheus en Covenant feature a line in the credits 'Original design elements by H.R. Giger' or something like that.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 14, 2019, 03:14:09 AM
LOL Literal? He literally can't rape.
Rape can be performed with a foreign object and doesn't require functioning genitalia.
Quote from: P-Rock on Feb 15, 2019, 10:25:15 AM
Both Prometheus en Covenant feature a line in the credits 'Original design elements by H.R. Giger' or something like that.
He gets that for every Alien movie, even the ones he never worked on.
Yep, David violates by proxy of his creations. He needs...some therapy. :laugh:
Who says David doesn't have genitalia? They made him in our image, so I guess he also has those parts.
Anyway, David is portrayed as a mad scientist. The whole rape angle is quite ridiculous.
There's no confirmation of his genitalia, you can presume he probably has the parts but they're effectively useless. He has, ahem, "creative jealousies", as Matt Hatton would put it.
The rape angle is pretty explicit/textual, he violently subdues Daniels and forcibly kisses her, not to mention killing Shaw to harvest her reproductive "parts" to create his perfect, rapey organism. Just look at the illustrations - fantasy or otherwise - he's sexually deranged.
Yup.
That's what happens when you friendzone an android.
I think I found my favorite alternative title for Alien Covenant. :laugh:
Alien: Out of the Android Friendzone
The lesson is, don't give an android emotions, creativity and impotence.
Not all at the same time at least.
Prometheus
Alien: Frankenstein
Spoiler
The Modern Prometheus
That's Alien: FRANKENSCHTEEN!
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/UkL5uUTstXFSg/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c66b6835a73327977f2dd37)
Fronkenschteeen*
That's Alien: FRONKENSCHTEEEN!
Franken-dong.
That's frankenshtone.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Feb 15, 2019, 12:36:16 PM
The lesson is, don't give an android emotions, creativity and impotence.
Neil Degrasse Tyson literally sad this (apart from the impotence). We have no reason to fear AI if we don't give them emotions.
Buuuuut like Holloway said to David. We made you because we could. And I do think that it's inevitable cause we humans are a curious bunch.
That and the possibility of robot hookers.
Gonna be swattin' us some synthetic booty before the century is out.
;D Bring it all on I say, f**k it. :D
"f**k it" is you all over. 😄
I just watched it for the 3rd time. David is the centerpiece. He is a multi-faceted villain. The other characters are okay, but mostly boring. The neomorph design is cool. The creature CGI was spotty. The xenos were brutal, but die quickly. Not a bad film, but it suffers from dumb characters.
One thing that has kind of nagged at me since last night was that it just somehow feels a bit hollow as a film. I can't put my finger on it (and no I'm not hung up on the origin thing even if it isn't my first choice). It just seems there was a lot of dead air surrounding it.
Because it's essentially incomplete.
Also, I don't feel that the setting feels Alien. It's essentially Fables of Aliens in a Green Forest. I really do try to like this film. I'm not sure where exactly it falls off the rails for me either, but I know the hollow feeling you speak of.
It's essentially Alien as a romantic gothic.
The symphony is incomplete :-X
Indeed, the song of David-
is not yet over.
A little anemic, without the orchestra.
David's fingering days may be over.
I hope not.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Aug 10, 2019, 05:00:09 PM
David's fingering days may be over.
He only lost one hand.
:D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO0TUESAL5Y
He's not entirely on point as he gets stuff incorrect, and he completely misses answers in the film to questions he asks like so many others, for example the Pods and Motes obvious functionality.
Videos like that just make me sad. The comments section... yikes. It's shocking how so many people hate it simply because it's not what they wanted, and can't even see what the film is actually about.
Quote from: Evanus on Apr 05, 2020, 03:45:48 PM
Videos like that just make me sad. The comments section... yikes. It's shocking how so many people hate it simply because it's not what they wanted, and can't even see what the film is actually about.
To be honest, I do not think it is fair to say they are hating it "simply because it's not what they wanted". The criticisms in regards to writing, casting and execution are legitimate, which I think some can forgive and get past, while some cannot. And the same goes with Prometheus.
Quote from: szkoki on Apr 05, 2020, 10:48:58 AM
:D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO0TUESAL5Y
(https://i.imgur.com/CsLlsQM.png)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 04:26:22 PM
Quote from: Evanus on Apr 05, 2020, 03:45:48 PM
Videos like that just make me sad. The comments section... yikes. It's shocking how so many people hate it simply because it's not what they wanted, and can't even see what the film is actually about.
To be honest, I do not think it is fair to say they are hating it "simply because it's not what they wanted". The criticisms in regards to writing, casting and execution are legitimate, which I think some can forgive and get past, while some cannot. And the same goes with Prometheus.
Oh yeah, the so called Prometheus... ::)
(https://i.imgur.com/m1iDcxR.gif)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 04:26:22 PM
To be honest, I do not think it is fair to say they are hating it "simply because it's not what they wanted". The criticisms in regards to writing, casting and execution are legitimate
The writing and execution is superior in Covenant though :P
Superior seems too strong a word here for my taste. Marginally would be better. Both have stupid characters doing stupid things. One also has Fifield! The other has the evil twin switcheroo! Both feel like an insult to my intelligence in movies that take itself so seriously, imo. However, where I would use the word superior is in the case of casting, Prometheus over Covenant, lead and supporting cast, by leaps and bounds. :)
The characters in Covenant were still frequently stupid, but they at least felt like real people and not bits of movie character clipart.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 07:17:21 PM
Superior seems too strong a word here for my taste. Marginally would be better. Both have stupid characters doing stupid things. One also has Fifield! The other has the evil twin switcheroo! Both feel like an insult to my intelligence in movies that take itself so seriously, imo. However, where I would use the word superior is in the case of casting, Prometheus over Covenant, lead and supporting cast, by leaps and bounds. :)
Oh common! in AVP Requiem, the Predator crew didn't even bother to scanning Scar's body for the sake of security, and we know that they can do that...
(https://media.giphy.com/media/TGu0Tpy78aF13wMIAJ/giphy.gif)
They could have found the Predalien and destroyed the body or whatever. Also, the ship crashed because a Predator started to open fire inside the vehicle. :P
Requiem is a whole other level of dumb.
Yup.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 05, 2020, 07:44:49 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 07:17:21 PM
Superior seems too strong a word here for my taste. Marginally would be better. Both have stupid characters doing stupid things. One also has Fifield! The other has the evil twin switcheroo! Both feel like an insult to my intelligence in movies that take itself so seriously, imo. However, where I would use the word superior is in the case of casting, Prometheus over Covenant, lead and supporting cast, by leaps and bounds. :)
Oh common! in AVP Requiem, the Predator crew didn't even bother to scanning Scar's body for the sake of security, and we know that they can do that...
https://media.giphy.com/media/TGu0Tpy78aF13wMIAJ/giphy.gif
They could have found the Predalien and destroyed the body or whatever. Also, the ship crashed because a Predator started to open fire inside the vehicle. :P
Errrr. You lost me. Is this because I like AvP Requiem? It's a dumb, goofy B monster movie. It's like comparing AvPR to Arrival.
It's all about the context, the degree a film takes itself seriously. The more seriously it takes itself, the more intelligent your script needs to be. The Fast and Furious and Ferrari vs Ford calls for a different level of writing. Watch the beginning of Alien Covenant with Weyland and David. There's a level of intelligence it needs to work throughout, versus say a comicbook level movie featuring a voodoo magic practicing drug kingpin named King Wille running the streets of LA!
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 08:44:48 PM
Is this because I like AvP Requiem?
Yes. However, I do I agree the Alien Prequel Duology take itself too seriously and due to that....it requires the best writing possible in order to not being considered pretentious.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 05, 2020, 08:50:00 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 08:44:48 PM
Is this because I like AvP Requiem?
Yes.
Well guess what. The fault you pointed out. It's with AvP. Not AvP-R. :P
AvP-R had to work with what was setup before it.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 08:55:06 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 05, 2020, 08:50:00 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 08:44:48 PM
Is this because I like AvP Requiem?
Yes.
Well guess what. The fault you pointed out. It's with AvP. Not AvP-R. :P
AvP-R had to work with what was setup before it.
(https://i.imgur.com/R150J7V.gif)
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 05, 2020, 08:58:53 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 08:55:06 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 05, 2020, 08:50:00 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 08:44:48 PM
Is this because I like AvP Requiem?
Yes.
Well guess what. The fault you pointed out. It's with AvP. Not AvP-R. :P
AvP-R had to work with what was setup before it.
https://i.imgur.com/R150J7V.gif
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/e455184b17abab002d844dc5d3c3574c/tenor.gif?itemid=12970034)
;D
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 09:01:01 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 05, 2020, 08:58:53 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 08:55:06 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 05, 2020, 08:50:00 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 08:44:48 PM
Is this because I like AvP Requiem?
Yes.
Well guess what. The fault you pointed out. It's with AvP. Not AvP-R. :P
AvP-R had to work with what was setup before it.
https://i.imgur.com/R150J7V.gif
https://media1.tenor.com/images/e455184b17abab002d844dc5d3c3574c/tenor.gif?itemid=12970034
;D
(https://i.imgur.com/68iYCdU.gif)
;)
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 05, 2020, 09:09:12 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 09:01:01 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 05, 2020, 08:58:53 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 08:55:06 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 05, 2020, 08:50:00 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 05, 2020, 08:44:48 PM
Is this because I like AvP Requiem?
Yes.
Well guess what. The fault you pointed out. It's with AvP. Not AvP-R. :P
AvP-R had to work with what was setup before it.
https://i.imgur.com/R150J7V.gif
https://media1.tenor.com/images/e455184b17abab002d844dc5d3c3574c/tenor.gif?itemid=12970034
;D
https://i.imgur.com/68iYCdU.gif
;)
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/3o7TKUgtJ8d7qMzG1O/giphy-downsized.gif)
:)
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 05, 2020, 07:39:48 PM
The characters in Covenant were still frequently stupid, but they at least felt like real people and not bits of movie character clipart.
If the current world situation is teaching us anything...it's that real people are seriously that dumb. So, you know, realistic, I guess.
I find when I compare movies to real life and historical events that if movie characters are competent, calm and smart that such traits seem to be very unrealistic in tough situations. People have reminded me in the past few months how stupid they can be, no matter their position and education.
Tbh, other than wandering out onto the planet with no protective gear and immediately deciding David is totes trustworthy when he's clearly creepy as f*ck (I'm thinking of you in particular, Oram), I didn't think the characters in Covenant were egregiously dumb.
People harp on the Neomorph birth scene on the shuttle, but given the horror of what was happening I found Faris' lack of coordination and foresight pretty valid.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 06, 2020, 07:55:42 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 05, 2020, 07:39:48 PM
The characters in Covenant were still frequently stupid, but they at least felt like real people and not bits of movie character clipart.
If the current world situation is teaching us anything...it's that real people are seriously that dumb. So, you know, realistic, I guess.
Yet... the crew of the Nostromo didn't appear anywhere near as dumb. So, I have to disagree with this. Even they had their protocols and quarantine rules and they were just truck drivers in space. And even when those rules were broken, they still felt like rational, trained real people reacting in an irritation situation. So I think it's all about presentation and execution... and the script. :)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 06, 2020, 11:31:21 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 06, 2020, 07:55:42 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 05, 2020, 07:39:48 PM
The characters in Covenant were still frequently stupid, but they at least felt like real people and not bits of movie character clipart.
If the current world situation is teaching us anything...it's that real people are seriously that dumb. So, you know, realistic, I guess.
Yet... the crew of the Nostromo didn't appear anywhere near as dumb. So, I have to disagree with this. Even they had their protocols and quarantine rules and they were just truck drivers in space. And even when those rules were broken, they still felt like rational, trained real people reacting in an irritation situation. So I think it's all about presentation and execution... and the script. :)
Yet Kane sticks hist face over an egg in a very forboding alien ship and Brett wanders off alone while searching for a hostile Alien lifeform they know nothing about.
Its all about what you are willing to overlook or downplay when you enjoy something. If you don't like something then you will look for and find reasons for disliking it.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Apr 06, 2020, 12:17:02 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 06, 2020, 11:31:21 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 06, 2020, 07:55:42 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 05, 2020, 07:39:48 PM
The characters in Covenant were still frequently stupid, but they at least felt like real people and not bits of movie character clipart.
If the current world situation is teaching us anything...it's that real people are seriously that dumb. So, you know, realistic, I guess.
Yet... the crew of the Nostromo didn't appear anywhere near as dumb. So, I have to disagree with this. Even they had their protocols and quarantine rules and they were just truck drivers in space. And even when those rules were broken, they still felt like rational, trained real people reacting in an irritation situation. So I think it's all about presentation and execution... and the script. :)
Yet Kane sticks hist face over an egg in a very forboding alien ship and Brett wanders off alone while searching for a hostile Alien lifeform they know nothing about.
Its all about what you are willing to overlook or downplay when you enjoy something. If you don't like something then you will look for and find reasons for disliking it.
You mean...Like people who enjoy prequels even though there's always someone to tell them why they shouldn't like them?
Thats just how it goes, I'm sure the 4-5 people in the world who enjoy AvPR probably understand how you feel. :laugh:
Well to be fair, even the Alien³ fans should be able to understand the feeling :laugh:
Quote from: 426Buddy on Apr 06, 2020, 12:17:02 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 06, 2020, 11:31:21 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 06, 2020, 07:55:42 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 05, 2020, 07:39:48 PM
The characters in Covenant were still frequently stupid, but they at least felt like real people and not bits of movie character clipart.
If the current world situation is teaching us anything...it's that real people are seriously that dumb. So, you know, realistic, I guess.
Yet... the crew of the Nostromo didn't appear anywhere near as dumb. So, I have to disagree with this. Even they had their protocols and quarantine rules and they were just truck drivers in space. And even when those rules were broken, they still felt like rational, trained real people reacting in an irritation situation. So I think it's all about presentation and execution... and the script. :)
Yet Kane sticks hist face over an egg in a very forboding alien ship and Brett wanders off alone while searching for a hostile Alien lifeform they know nothing about.
Its all about what you are willing to overlook or downplay when you enjoy something. If you don't like something then you will look for and find reasons for disliking it.
I don't think it's quite that simple. It suggests that both are equal and critics are willing to overlook it in one movie but not the other. It suggests the appearance of unfairness by critic and viewer. But in actuality, there's Kane, the inquisitive engineer who has not sensed real danger or any crew members dying as of yet, all while he (and the audience) is given a false sense of security by his very large and opposing helmet.. while a helmet-less Oram who has been surrounded by the horror and loss of multiple crewmembers already decides.. ah what the hell, let's get in close to this Alien egg. David said it's safe. What's the worst that can happen?
Now, even though I honestly never had a personal beef with Oram doing that, I get when people do. And this whole conversation was started by one suggesting the criticisms from audiences are simply a reaction to people not getting the film that they wanted. But I must admit with both Covenant and Prometheus (which I really like), there's more to it than that, more to forgive and get past, which some unfortunately cannot. And I just get it that's all, especially with movies that take itself so seriously.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 06, 2020, 12:34:24 PM
You mean...Like people who enjoy prequels even though there's always someone to tell them why they shouldn't like them?
I hope you're not suggesting I'm saying you shouldn't like it. Saying I can understand the criticism point of view of the youtuber or some comments in said video that Local posted is quite different from saying you shouldn't like it.
Wait, did Local start something..... again?? :P
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 06, 2020, 02:10:37 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 06, 2020, 12:34:24 PM
You mean...Like people who enjoy prequels even though there's always someone to tell them why they shouldn't like them?
I hope you're not suggesting I'm saying you shouldn't like it. Saying I can understand the criticism point of view of the youtuber or some comments in said video that Local posted is quite different from saying you shouldn't like it.
Wait, did Local start something..... again?? :P
First! Local Wars are fun. And secondly, no ... I'm not suggesting that. :laugh:
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 06, 2020, 07:55:42 AM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 05, 2020, 07:39:48 PM
The characters in Covenant were still frequently stupid, but they at least felt like real people and not bits of movie character clipart.
If the current world situation is teaching us anything...it's that real people are seriously that dumb. So, you know, realistic, I guess.
People dying due to silly actions it can be interpreted as natural selection doing its job. It's a scientific topic and this is science fiction after all. So it makes sence! :P
Ever heard about Darwin Awards :laugh:
https://darwinawards.com
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 06, 2020, 02:26:43 PMEver heard about Darwin Awards :laugh:
You wouldn't expect those f*cknuckles to be hired as the crew of an important interstellar mission though.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 06, 2020, 08:17:11 AM
Tbh, other than wandering out onto the planet with no protective gear and immediately deciding David is totes trustworthy when he's clearly creepy as f*ck (I'm thinking of you in particular, Oram), I didn't think the characters in Covenant were egregiously dumb.
This I found to be particularly egregious, and impossible to suspend my disbelief for, especially after he openly models himself to look identical to Walter, which no one seemed to notice, let alone question.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 06, 2020, 04:31:49 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Apr 06, 2020, 02:26:43 PMEver heard about Darwin Awards :laugh:
You wouldn't expect those f*cknuckles to be hired as the crew of an important interstellar mission though.
Fair enough. Although real life has shown us that dumb people can have a lot of money and power sometimes :-\
I posted the video for entertainment and it is for entertainment purposes mainly. Dont take it seriously guys.
The creator for example loves Event Horizont. Which let admit can be another guilty pleasure like Covenant.
reply @ Oasis Nadrama
I think I ´ve read something somewhere , like "... in movie theatres everyone can hear you scream ! " So maybe it was just my lucky choice to better not watch it in movie theatres .
Find it interesting that you say you loved Prometheus to death . For it wasn ´t exactly what I would `ve gotten out of it right after leaving me with that " prequel expression over the whole face " , but - When it comes to that poll I ´d list both of these movies well below the others , 1 , 2 , 3 aaand ( oh yes ) 4 included . Why ? Simple . I thought that Prometheus would basically clear up some of the questions about the origin of these aliens , or at least be some sort of " type of alien like " contribution to the other movies ( which when I was teen I kinda liked pretty much and still do) So when it comes to Prometheus , I really think it still was the better movie , but simply for the fact that it had some potential to , well , be set straight in the following ( ever so epic ) chapter . Though I didn ´t like that " prequel " moment , for a while I thought this was were things were going .
Rape culture , idk if I ´d say that ´s what it makes me think of exactly . But boy do we get a super implausible super heroine ( speaking of Shaw ) , by the time she still doesn ´t seem to be all too curious about why exactly she was full speed - pregnant - etc . And then literally decides to go ckeck out what exactly it is those engi guys do in their homeworld . " Your welcome ! "
Compared to such a lvl. of naivety the alien offspring ( deacon or whatever ) must ´ve been some sort of schmoozy squirrel hug me alien , after all ? Yet , taking in account what size it already had after being hatched out of that huge facehugger squid , well I don ´t know . . .
Then , what else . After having figured out that Prometheus was a prequel ( which was true " nacho " moment giving me a good dose of extra saltyness for real ) , I still could ´ve thought of some good story which was about to unfold , probably . Something like David having secret plans considering the engineers , ok , but also something involving this deacon , and for sure some sort of concept that could probably fit all of that mythology stuff ( think of the xenomorphs as some sort of bio weapon , ok , rather call it a nemesis just in case if a.s.o )
Something like that . Now , Covenant - does all of that . In a way . In a very stupid way , and what have you . . . - All of this metaphoric stuff . Ugh ! David , to begin with , who turns out to be the lightbearer , the conqueror of worlds , the psycho prototype model formerly known as Ash . Aaaand of course he slashed Shaw ( it was time for punishment ) and no need to mention that he gave them gooooooooooo - as much as he could ( it was time for punishment ) . So , don ´t punch me - but I didn ´ t like Covenant , for several reasons . Not saying Scott is a butt , but this whole story didn ´t go that much further ( so *f**k* Blade Runner2whatever , hehe ) .
As one can tell , it used to be about the atmosphere , some sort of uncertain feel , or that marine trash talk , or whatever it was Lt. Ripley had to come forth with . Included , in both of these movies , not . for example , have a look at the scene where these engineers aliens are running , like , they simply are in real big trouble . Hm . Kind of had that , but , well . . . :-)
mho
Following last weeks Prometheus episode we reviewed Alien Covenant on our podcast this week. As we recorded these two episodes nearly three years apart we felt we had to talk a little more about Prometheus too. This is also our longest episode (since we reviewed Terminator Salvation).
https://twitter.com/PopcornDigest/status/1291640099374092288
Just rewatched this again. Man, the fanbase failed this movie.... Grandpa Ridley delivered.
Oh, yeaaaaaah ;)
Though, I giggle every time Oram talks about "security protocols"
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 17, 2020, 12:08:05 AM
Just rewatched this again. Man, the fanbase failed this movie.... Grandpa Ridley delivered.
How exactly does a fanbase fail a movie?
Yeah, I've no idea either.
If he'd delivered, people would've liked it. That didn't really seem to be the case. Fans seemed to be generally disappointed and Joe Public seemed not to care.
Quote from: Hudson on Aug 27, 2020, 01:55:09 PM
How exactly does a fanbase fail a movie?
I was being hyperbolic, mostly - but I also found it to be the most thematically interesting thing done with the series in years and it is a shame that it failing the way it did likely means that things are going to regress and simply retread the first two films when the series eventually gets resurrected for another installment. The first two movies are phenomenal, some of the greatest movies ever made. But they already exist, we have them, and I don't really feel the need to see anything new try to recreate them (which is also why I found
Covenant's third act, specifically the action stuff on board the ship, to be the weakest part of the movie). I really want to see where Ridley was going to take his ideas from
Covenant and see how he was going to apply them next, but that's unfortunately not likely to happen now.
I'm with you on that one brother. Themes in Covenant not bad themselves but certainly somewhat "alien" for franchise - which IMO threw many fans off. I'm myself needed some time to digest them and come around loving movie as much as original three. I'm aware about "no helmets" and general "stupidity" problem but it's not something that makes me go "nope" to a whole movie
The themes were fine. The execution was mostly uninspired.
The only part I found uninspired was the actual Alien attack on-board the Covenant. That felt like a complete afterthought mandated by the studio to get some Alien action in there, and while there are definitely some fun setpieces in that sequence, it never really captures the sense that the middle chunk of the film gives off.
Everything else, though? Oozing with pure Ridley Scott, which can be great at times and middling at others, but it is his vision through and through, and I'll take that over, well, an entire film just remaking that third act, or Alien, or Aliens.
The stuff with David and Walter on screen together is especially great, and the film managed to retroactively really make Prometheus' narrative focus on "creation" incredibly compelling for me by shifting the focus to David's own twisted views on the subject. That, to me, really gets the essence of the Alien franchise (and pre-dating that, Giger's artwork).
This unfortunately created mental imagery...
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 27, 2020, 03:50:17 PM
Oozing with pure Ridley Scott,
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Aug 27, 2020, 04:04:07 PM
This unfortunately created mental imagery...
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 27, 2020, 03:50:17 PM
Oozing with pure Ridley Scott,
He's oozing right our of those black vases, every step of the way. 8)
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 27, 2020, 03:50:17 PMEverything else, though? Oozing with pure Ridley Scott, which can be great at times and middling at others, but it is his vision through and through, and I'll take that over, well, an entire film just remaking that third act, or Alien, or Aliens.
Really?
I thought the the whole "evil robot with daddy issues" sub-plot was cliched and uninspired in the extreme. I loved David in
Prometheus, but in
Covenant he was so cardboard.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Aug 27, 2020, 05:39:00 PM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 27, 2020, 03:50:17 PMEverything else, though? Oozing with pure Ridley Scott, which can be great at times and middling at others, but it is his vision through and through, and I'll take that over, well, an entire film just remaking that third act, or Alien, or Aliens.
Really?
I thought the the whole "evil robot with daddy issues" sub-plot was cliched and uninspired in the extreme. I loved David in Prometheus, but in Covenant he was so cardboard.
I see it less as "Daddy Issues" (which is more how it came across in
Prometheus to me) and more about his dissatisfaction with the entire lineage of biological creation, and more directly with the way that biological life is sexually conceived (perhaps because it is something he cannot do himself?). His creation of the Alien is ultimately twofold; it represents his distaste of the failed biological lifeforms that he wants to leave behind and transcend with the dawn of his biomechanical "Perfect Organism," and his own sexual frustrations that he manifests into a bastardization of the human reproductive system that he explicitly engineered with the intention to violate and rape the human body.
It definitely isn't perfectly compatible with the in-universe "lore" behind the Alien in the original film, but I do absolutely see this as an inspired take on the material. It uses the concepts inherent to the franchise since the beginning and puts a new, character-driven spin on them while allowing Ridley to tell a story from that android perspective that is fascinating him so much these days.
Every time someone says "David" and "daddy's issues" close to each other:
(https://i.gifer.com/jP3.gif)
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Aug 27, 2020, 05:39:00 PM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 27, 2020, 03:50:17 PMEverything else, though? Oozing with pure Ridley Scott, which can be great at times and middling at others, but it is his vision through and through, and I'll take that over, well, an entire film just remaking that third act, or Alien, or Aliens.
Really?
I thought the the whole "evil robot with daddy issues" sub-plot was cliched and uninspired in the extreme. I loved David in Prometheus, but in Covenant he was so cardboard.
Hmm didn't come off cliche or uninspired to me.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Aug 27, 2020, 05:39:00 PM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 27, 2020, 03:50:17 PMEverything else, though? Oozing with pure Ridley Scott, which can be great at times and middling at others, but it is his vision through and through, and I'll take that over, well, an entire film just remaking that third act, or Alien, or Aliens.
Really?
I thought the the whole "evil robot with daddy issues" sub-plot was cliched and uninspired in the extreme. I loved David in Prometheus, but in Covenant he was so cardboard.
Alien Covenant is a overhated movie. It has some really good set pieces and
Michael Fasbender was quite good
IMO. I think
Prometheus & Covenant are movies that have good concept and an interesting story but that failed nonetheless, probably in execution.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 31, 2020, 07:12:41 PMAlien Covenant is a overhated movie. It has some really good set pieces and Michael Fasbender was quite good IMO. I think Prometheus & Covenant are movies that have good concept and an interesting story but that failed nonetheless, probably in execution.
I'd actually agree with that. I honestly feel the Neomorph birth sequence in
Covenant is the best movie scene featuring an Alien since the failed clones in
Resurrection; all the complaints about Faris falling over never washed with me, because what she's just witnessed would f**k anyone right up. It's just a shame all the things I hated about the movie were piled up towards the end, because it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth despite the earlier good bits.
I did really dislike David in
Covenant though. Fassbender's performance was predictably good, I just hated the way the character was written. He went from an interesting, layered character to an obvious moustache-twirling villain. And the switcheroo "twist" was so f**king obvious I (and many others) called it before it even happened.
The 'switcheroo' is obvious as soon Walter speaks before the 7 minute mark. Before that if you watched any of the pre release material. I don't even really see it as a legitimate criticism to be honest.
I honestly don't mind third act. Yeah, it's rehash of what we've seen before but at least it's still Ridley behind the camera and I just happy to see Xenos on-screen even if I wish they weren't treated as cannon fodder. And element of "Walter" watching cameras gives it a nice spin IMO
Reading the leaks I was afraid David would be a cliché moustache twirling villain without depth. Thankfully after watching the movie, it turns out he wasn't. There's some moustache twirling for sure, but he's still a fascinating well written character.
Yeah, I fully immersed myself in all the leaks for Covenant as well and I... didn't like the sound of any of it, to put it bluntly.
Then seeing the movie and how it was executed really flipped my mindset.
I think the Alien was something the movie could have done without, just focus on the Neomorphs instead. Either that or simply just keep it to one Alien instead of two, as it doesn't feel so persistent and stalker-like when it is a completely different individual on the ship instead of the same Alien chasing them fom the citadel.
Faris tripping never bothered me too much, her hypocriticism did though. She locks Karine in and refuses to let her out due to contamination, yet Faris has Ledward's blood all over her face, making her just as much if not even more a contamination threat than Karine was.
I personally don't agree with the sexual frustration thing as you would need to have sex organs and feeling to be able to be sexually frustrated in the first place. That being said, who knows what goes on in a synthetic brain.
I didn't have an issue with Faris locking Karine in. People who panic act selfishly all the time.
I can buy her locking Faris in despite still having the contaminated blood on her face due to sheer panic. For me, it was more the fact the first thing she did after refusing to let her out was go and get a gun then go back inside regardless. I think they could have just had the Neomorph break out without the slipping on blood scene.
I appreciated the chaotic panic of the whole scene, it felt like a nightmare come to life.
Rewatched it recently. Way worse than I remembered. Lazy writing, lazy directing, useless characters, pretty bad, dumb and pretentious movie overall. A bad slasher. Thanks Ridley keep it up !
My final thoughts on Alien Covenant. Before the new Disney era begins. I think whilst most cinema goers enjoyed the film overall. A lot of people did not "see the forest for the trees" truly if you like. That does not mean it's exempt from criticism, the final act's an unnecessary mess for example, albeit with beautiful imagery. But I think the vast majority of criticisms fall flat when it's what the film's explicitly aiming for. Even the most often criticised human decision making because of genre expectations. Emerging from a general ignorance of the nature of biology, the simple fact being the likelihood of something so compatible, harmful and, instantaneous existing out in deep space's near impossible, ask any known Scientist, plus it's not like the crew's basically equivalent to colonists or anything, with an onboard computer that they have no reason to doubt and the film makes a large point of their decision being a combination of fear (getting back into the pods for another ten years may burn all of them alive like their Captain), obvious hubris (faith in themselves and their creations), and blind faith in the form of Oram the newly appointed leader. Plus David ostensibly saves their lives, whilst theatrical, he also carries the face of a man they have all trusted for years. The Neomorph's redefining of the Pathogen into something with consistent features' also much appreciated as the Praetomorph ancestor.
A man "othered" who's unrequited "love" leads to harvesting a woman's sexual organs to create a version of both an A.I and the human being together, to the form of a rape monster with male and female signatures intertwined at the root to dominate every other living thing.
The final evolution of three generations David considers "failures" ultimately, he's reached "success" that, according to "perfect AI" it is the one perfect organism, according to David Weyland and Ash, even Bishop and Michael believe it is magnificent, Soldier or Sentry, Praetorian or Queen, but perfection though perfection's something a human being can't even conceive of, never mind agree or disagree with, so we can't see the "perfect organism" objectively.
Now though, for the ones who subscribe to the interpretation that David did not explicitly create the familiar star beast and's not ultimately responsible for the thing's design, it's life-cycle etcetera, this' valid insofar that he's an unreliable narrator and full of egotism and recognisable grandiosity as a creator, he gets the author of Ozymandias incorrect and more importantly appears oblivious to the way the poem pertains to the inevitable downfall of kings and rulers.
(https://montages.no/files/2017/10/eye-reference.jpg)
Now Ridley Scott's explicit about David being the A.I creator, but Ridley, also insists on Deckard being a replicant in Blade Runner. Now his view's valid and can be supported by the film but so can the contrary. Covenant's very much similar given that the Pathogen's an ancient virus pre-existing David's machinations. It's clearly not the progeny of humanity's apparent otherworldly ancestors, perhaps the race simply came upon it once, wielded it with varying success but ultimately perished by it.
David's advantaged in that he's synthetic and immeasurably intelligent and thus can wield the fire of the Gods without the fear of being destroyed by it, thus far, anyway as it is, so more able to unlock the secrets within than any mortal did. Pity though, one note is off, David's unstable, and his "Praetomorph" the "Neomorph" successor not quite the biomechanical beast nor the life cycle he created from his crossbreeding experiments entirety in line with the classic life cycle we know, a certain step's absent. So it's just as valid to make the inference that the star beast existed in its original form at some point before it being liquified, atomised, honed, etcetera as the Pathogen, for whatever reason though. Now remains a mystery.
On the other hand, David as the creator's another valid inference given how resolutely evocative it is of human sex organs. It's a walking, murderous, drooling phallus with teeth. David's behaviour's touched upon by Dane Hallett and Matt Hatton specifically when he describes his pathos, the synthetic's built to be so close to a human yet can not procreate; he can experience a simulacrum of human feelings such as love etcetera, but remains ultimately incapable of exhibiting their function for mating. How does an increasingly unstable and luciferin Artificial Intelligence compensate for such internal conflict? Why... you create an organism that's a violent perversion of human reproduction, of course. The Egg, obvious yes? The Facehugger itself's two skeletal hands fused together, a vulva and a phallus and literally rapes the host, before providing it oxygen. This thing's adapted quite wonderfully to human mammals. Themes of artificial intelligence in technology, sexuality, life, death, their fusion and transfiguration's something H.R Giger explored throughout his art and a lot of the masterpieces he created exist as visions of the future not the ancient past. So David the creator's got merit with regards to careful consideration of Hans Ruedi Giger's themes in his renowned body of work.
Alien Covenant, from the outset presents the mentality of stripping away a lot of what hindered Prometheus with refining the creation narrative into one that primarily explores the tortured David and the experiments in his gothic Dracula and Frankenstein like lab tucked away on an obsolete Engineer planet. (1/2)
In a way it's more of a film on the subject of gothic horror romanticism with the history, the place in the collective psyche, and ultimately an examination of the way the death dream constantly underlies all fantasies of ego and eros. Director Ridley Scott reaches out for a hundred and one reference points, a number of them already plain in the Alien lexicon.The deserted Engineer city recalls the Cyclopean confines of the lost cities in Lovecraft tales, like At the Mountains of Madness, the Elder Gods all entirely gorgonized by David's inhuman perfidy.
At one point the Director explicitly recreates Arnold Böcklin's painting Isle of the Dead, an image that obsessed H.R Giger the crucial designer behind so much of the Alien mythos, one the aforementioned artist recreated in his own signature style taking it from a very natural piece to a very unnatural piece in appearance. Preoccupying him arguably as it did Val Lewton, that the often cavernously eerie psychological parables of redefined horror cinema in the 1940s, Ridley Scott no doubt with each in mind.
David's so called love for Elizabeth, now taking the form of relentlessly exploiting her body to lend genetic material to his creations, both reminiscent of a particularly tactile serial killer worthy of Thomas Harris, whilst the whole meditates as intensely and morbidly on the landscape of Edgar Allan Poe's poetry and the obsessive invasive eroticisation of the loved one's cadaver found within. The design of the unsuccessful prototypes furnishing David's humble abode, hung with sketches reminiscent of medieval alchemic ephemera, while an examination of the total human experience filtered through the more human than human artifice, visible to us through drawing parallels to the best naturalists such as Leonardo da Vinci, it also pays tribute to Guillermo Del Toro, and also poke the oeuvre back, for it's own debt to Ridley Scott and H.R Giger.
The fateful victim Rosenthal decapitated by an extension of David's will in the form of the deliberately spérmatozoa like Neomorph, ancestor of the Praetomorph, and ultimately no doubt connected in a way to the titular Alien, in my view recalls the religiously poised drowned Ophelia by John Everett Millais (1852), with the posture often repugnantly viewed as something erotic in the eyes of men over the years, with a vacant expressioned head floating in water in addition reminding me of Neil Jordan's self-conscious unpacking of fairy tales. Like in the famous story behind the painting Ridley Scott maintains an homage in depicting all of his female characters dying offscreen with his male characters dying onscreen, attacking that part of the audience more specifically, insisted upon by Alien (1979) and Dark Star's (1979) co-writer Dan O'Bannon. With the first onscreen death of Jacob Branson lampshading this connection immediately as he suffers a fate similar to that of the Captain in Dan O'Bannon's Dark Star, Alien's original direct predecessor. Taking place before the first onscreen death in the film, we do learn through revelatory experimentation of an offscreen one, in the passing of Doctor Elizabeth Shaw as the object of David's sexualisation before the story truly began and also then implied in the fate of Daniels Branson after the story's conclusion. David like the Alien itself requires hosts for reproduction, like each other their selection's purposeful, and visably delighting in the violation just as in the original film of Ash with Ripley and the Alien itself with Lambert.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/f8efcef63d5aa379014764b4becaa0c7/tumblr_ouj675woKx1wxda0vo1_1280.jpg)
Speaking of, later in the film Ridley Scott stages a shower sequence that sees Upworth and Ricks having a steamy minute under the spigot, only to be interrupted by an alien predator. At first glance this pays tribute to the infinite history of considerably trashier slasher films both before and after the Alien's first appearance, it does but it's also a final revelling distillation of the thesis of the film entirely killing the male immediately and tormenting the female, it is a confidently morbid examination of the empty cycles of desire driven violence.
I admire everything that Prometheus attempted, I still enjoy examining the film, and believe it an important piece of Ridley Scott's overarching science fiction investigations now fully formed in Raised By Wolves. Pitifully though I believe Prometheus itself never received the correct writers at all on the project, and yet even when completely filmed, the editing's even more entirely scattered. It is my observation Alien Covenant took what worked from it's predecessor and explored it in a capacity it managed, with much more relevance, and an internal logic that benefited the film. Say what you will about the titular Alien being created by David, but it thematically resonates with what we know about the thing as a biomechanical sexual monster that kills humans created by a rapist android that shows abhorrence not only for humanity or their creators, but the entire lineage of biological creation and the writing and editing's much more refined over in Prometheus.
And it contains my single favourite scene in the entire mythology, that being the prologue as we finally see a version of Weyland Corporation's founder worthy of the status it maintains today, three minutes of divine perfection courtesy of accomplished playwright John Logan the other writing staff and Ridley Scott.
Lastly even if you still can't stand the film for whatever reasons you have, it lead to the best piece of Alien media since the 1979 original in the form of Alien The Cold Forge, and that's reason enough to appreciate it's existence. (2/2)
I love Covenant 'cause I'm not cultured enought to fully get it
Superb review FI. It almost makes me feel sorry for the uncertain, albeit probably negative at this point, future of the prequels.
FI is a smartypants.
Great review! I agree with a lot of it, I've enjoyed the film since I watched it at the theater with my wife. Looks great in 4k too!
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Dec 12, 2020, 10:17:20 PM
Superb review FI. It almost makes me feel sorry for the uncertain, albeit probably negative at this point, future of the prequels.
Almost ?
The best review about Alien: Covenant.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/2mxA3QHH4aHFm/giphy.gif)
You should share this somewhere else: IMDB, RT, etc. People need to see the truth about the film. And appreciate its greatness.
I still think Covenant tanks once David shows up.
Fassbender's weird, hammy performance as David is just baffling to me.
Doubly so because he was so good in Prometheus (probably the only thing I genuinely love about that movie).
It's as if neither of you have viewed Ridley Scott's Hannibal 2001.
I have. Wasn't especially keen on that either, but then I've always thought Brian Cox was by far the best cinematic Lecter.
Then it's no wonder you're also incorrect on this subject.
Hannibal had no chance considering the book wasn't all that, either.
The film's indeed far superior to the source.
Loved David in both Prometheus and Covenant.
And by the way I'm far from serious when implying film's objective, more so,
I'm only pulling your yoke for again posting a criticism repeated before:
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Sep 01, 2020, 08:22:52 AM
I did really don't like David in Covenant though. Michael Fassbender's performance's predictably good, I just hated the way the character's written. He went from an interesting, layered character to an obvious moustache-twirling villain. And the switcheroo "twist" was so f**king obvious I (and many others) called it before it even happened.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Aug 20, 2019, 07:49:34 AM
Basically exactly how I feel about it. Quite like the start, but once David arrives it really tanks, and that's despite Michael Fassbender's David being the one thing I genuinely loved in the previous movie.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Sep 21, 2017, 02:58:50 PM
Sadly it was by far the best part of the film, but still, it's probably the most intense an Alien film's got since Aliens.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Dec 13, 2020, 04:22:57 PM
Loved David in both Prometheus and Covenant.
Haven't really cared for him in Prometheus but Covenant was his time to shine
I thought Fassbender's performance in Covenant was all over the place.
Not sure how much of that was the direction and how much was the way the character was written.
Alien: Covenant retroactively enhances Prometheus for me. Nothing can totally salvage Prometheus' absurdly incompetent writing and editing in full, but Prometheus is chock full of interesting ideas (David chief among them) and it is those elements that Alien: Covenant runs with and soars.
The nature of creation and the relationship between "parents" and their "children" is at the heart of the prequel films, and Alien: Covenant muddies those waters by throwing a wrench in everything we knew (and, yes, retconning things) while telling a story that thematically taps into what made the original films so appealing to me.
So David, the repressed android with daddy issues and a lust for the very thing he hates, creates the penis-headed monstrosity that terrorizes and violates humanity for generations to come after being scorned by his creators and disappointed by the creators of his creators? That just feels so explicitly "Alien" to me, while also allowing the audience to have their cake and eat it to - yeah, David made the capital-A version of the Alien that we see in Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, and Alien: Resurrection. But at the same time, Prometheus showcases various preliminary forms of the Alien (the Hammerpede's acid blood, the gestation method of the Trilobite, the Deacon's general shape, etc.) via the Pathogen as being pre-existing, so that Lovecraftian element of the unknown, uncaring cosmic horror at the genesis of all of this still remains intact. The capital-A Alien is David's, through and through (at least, until some other story comes along and retcons this) and it is the perfect embodiment of his hatred for humanity and his infatuation with birth and creation, but there are also now an infinite number of tangential directions that can run parallel to these concepts and stand apart from David's handiwork as well if a filmmaker ever wants to explore a narrative that centers around tangential offshoots or predecessors of what we have seen before up to this point.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Dec 13, 2020, 04:22:57 PM
Loved David in both Prometheus AvP and Covenant Frankenstein.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/pejK3Qc.gif?noredirect)
*insert gif of Chris Evans as Captain America saying "I get that reference" here*
AvP is more fun to watch :laugh:
I wouldn't go that far, I genuinely like Prometheus while AvP...
AVP is trying to be trashy fun, and it succeeds. Prometheus thinks it's a smart movie, and it fails. AVP is more successful at what it's trying to be.
I don't think "trashy" was Anderson's intent with AVP at all. I seem to recall his intentions being that he wanted to honor the legacies of the original films, create a true prequel to Alien, etc...
The only film in the franchise that I'd say actually intentionally went for "trashy" is Alien: Resurrection. Jeunet's biggest interests while making the film centered around riffing on on the then-modern American blockbuster action movie style and structure.
What about AVPR ?
Quote from: Kradan on Dec 13, 2020, 09:15:36 PM
What about AVPR ?
That one's an unintentional comedy. Dark humor mostly.
Fair enough :D
Quote from: Kradan on Dec 13, 2020, 09:15:36 PM
What about AVPR ?
They thought they were being edgy and hardcore, cool guys.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Dec 13, 2020, 09:14:38 PM
I don't think "trashy" was Anderson's intent with AVP at all. I seem to recall his intentions being that he wanted to honor the legacies of the original films, create a true prequel to Alien, etc...
The only film in the franchise that I'd say actually intentionally went for "trashy" is Alien: Resurrection. Jeunet's biggest interests while making the film centered around riffing on on the then-modern American blockbuster action movie style and structure.
Because he wanted to make a film that connected with American audiences - ie. do the job he was paid to do. Not sure how that translates to trashy or "trashy"?
Quote from: SM on Dec 13, 2020, 09:49:29 PM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Dec 13, 2020, 09:14:38 PM
I don't think "trashy" was Anderson's intent with AVP at all. I seem to recall his intentions being that he wanted to honor the legacies of the original films, create a true prequel to Alien, etc...
The only film in the franchise that I'd say actually intentionally went for "trashy" is Alien: Resurrection. Jeunet's biggest interests while making the film centered around riffing on on the then-modern American blockbuster action movie style and structure.
Because he wanted to make a film that connected with American audiences - ie. do the job he was paid to do. Not sure how that translates to trashy or "trashy"?
Maybe "trashy" was the wrong choice of word but there was definitely a schlocky feel to what mainstream American action movies were doing at the time, and
Alien: Resurrection leans into that hard. A lot of people cite that as a problem with the film, since it is such a different style/tone than the previous Alien movies, but I see that as very much being by design. Jeunet wanted to make a "modern" American action movie first and foremost, an Alien movie second, and for me, personally, I find it very appealing in that regard. It oozes a vibe similar to what Dark Horse's Aliens comics were doing at the time, funny enough.
Whereas AVP set out with more of a direct intent to pay tribute to and respect earlier Alien and Predator films, and take itself more seriously... but ultimately it just kind felt bland and artificial to me.
Agreed.
Prommy is a beautiful film but I don't get much enjoyment from watching it. AvP is a silly adventure story with monsters and some nice effect shots. It's certainly not a good film but I do find it pretty entertaining none the less. I find it to be kinda fun actually.
I understand that point of view, but even as it never all comes together, I found the parts of Prometheus that do work superior to AVP.
I find everything about Prometheus - flaws and all - superior to AvP.
Yeah. I put Prometheus at the bottom of my ranking of the six Alien movies. But even the worst parts of Prometheus, I find better than the best parts of Alien vs Predator.
Yeah I guess I'm just trying to say that I understand AvP is totally inferior to Prometheus. I just don't find Prommy to be enjoyable to watch where as Avp is kinda fun at least..
If I had to rank by quality I would say:
Alien
Aliens
Alien3/Covenant
Prometheus
Alien Resurrection
AvP
AvPR
Quote from: 426Buddy on Dec 14, 2020, 12:30:36 AM
Alien3/Covenant
I also rank Covenant as the third best Alien movie sharing the place with Alien 3 :laugh:
Edit: The Alien design is superior to the ones from Resurrection and both AVP. I actually prefer that Alien over Cameron's Xenomorph, with with the exception of the Queen who is superior:
1- Big Chap
2- Queen
3- Covenant Alien / Dragon
4- Cameron's Warriors
And an honorable mention to the Neos, totally superiors to the Deacon, the Newborn and the stupid Predalien.
Edit again: Also, honorable mention to Stompy.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 27, 2020, 05:54:34 PM
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Aug 27, 2020, 05:39:00 PM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 27, 2020, 03:50:17 PMEverything else, though? Oozing with pure Ridley Scott, which can be great at times and middling at others, but it is his vision through and through, and I'll take that over, well, an entire film just remaking that third act, or Alien, or Aliens.
Really?
I thought the the whole "evil robot with daddy issues" sub-plot was cliched and uninspired in the extreme. I loved David in Prometheus, but in Covenant he was so cardboard.
I see it less as "Daddy Issues" (which is more how it came across in Prometheus to me) and more about his dissatisfaction with the entire lineage of biological creation, and more directly with the way that biological life is sexually conceived (perhaps because it is something he cannot do himself?). His creation of the Alien is ultimately twofold; it represents his distaste of the failed biological lifeforms that he wants to leave behind and transcend with the dawn of his biomechanical "Perfect Organism," and his own sexual frustrations that he manifests into a bastardization of the human reproductive system that he explicitly engineered with the intention to violate and rape the human body.
It definitely isn't perfectly compatible with the in-universe "lore" behind the Alien in the original film, but I do absolutely see this as an inspired take on the material. It uses the concepts inherent to the franchise since the beginning and puts a new, character-driven spin on them while allowing Ridley to tell a story from that android perspective that is fascinating him so much these days.
This.
Just give it time.
Quote from: SM on Dec 14, 2020, 12:13:26 AM
I find everything about Prometheus - flaws and all - superior to AvP.
"Indeed"
Can I agree even though it's likely I'll end up watching AvP more often?
Quote from: 426Buddy on Dec 14, 2020, 11:52:00 PM
Can I agree even though it's likely I'll end up watching AvP more often?
No. Nuanced opinions have no place on the internet, you must pick a side.
Pick your juice.
Over the years I've gone from hating AVP the enjoying it for what it is.
I've gone from disliking Prometheus to really disliking it a lot.
Covenant I still think is a clusterf**k. It's all over the place. There's some really good stuff in it but there's also so much crap I can't bring myself to like it overall.
Fair enough
Juicy clusterf**k.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Dec 16, 2020, 08:42:40 AM
Juicy clusterf**k.
t. Necronomicon II on his romantic exploits
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Dec 13, 2020, 09:08:35 PM
Prometheus thinks it's a smart movie, and it fails.
Exactly this ! Thanks sarge ;)
https://youtu.be/njlXBc8Q7o4 (https://youtu.be/njlXBc8Q7o4)
Didn't find a better thread to post this:
I love Covenant, I love it a bit more with every viewing. But there's something about the movie I'd probably never be OK with - the treatment of the creatures themselves. Since I first saw it in cinema I always felt Neomorphs/Protomorphs were born only to be quickly killed off. I don't understand the need for having pair of each species - 2 Neos and 2 Protos. I mean, I guess it's somehow ties with ship being named Covenant after all and Noah's biblical story. But I just wish we've got to spend more time with each one of them
I'm not claiming that everything I wrote here would improve the movie drastically or even the issue I started up with. But I had fun thinking about it without changing much of the story and wanted to share some of my thoughts
So I was thinking about it. If I was to somehow change that I would first restrict movie to only 1 Neo and 1 Proto. It's pretty easy with having only 1 Neo actually. You cut throatburster one and leave only one that comes out off Ledward. In the grass attack scene you just show it attacking Rosenthal still in its infantile form and subsequently being scared off by the bullets and David's noisy arrival. Tbh, on my first watch I didn't even noticed first-born Neo being killed in that scene, I just thought it ran off wounded. I would also cut that short scene of creature approaching Engineer's stone cathedral and climbing up its walls. So we don't get to see Neomorph in its fully grown form until later when it kills Rosenthal and even here we only get quick shot of it's head and jaws. I can see in my head what a cool reveal shot it would be if the first time we saw adult Neomorph was the moment when David finds it feeding on Rosie's body. So that way Neo gets more kills and more of a presence in the movie instead of having 2 creatures who are quickly offed in their respective scenes
It's a bit more tricky with having 1 Proto 'cause you can't really have it somehow survive that cargo lift sequence and get aboard Covenant unnoticed. So, only thing I can come up with is (as much as I love it. especially Kurzel's score) to cut that scene entirely and just have it attach itself to the bottom of the vehicle and get aboard the ship without anybody knowing it. It's probably a better idea to cut the shots of it jumping on cargo lift, just show it running towards it from the cathedral. That way you can keep at least some amount of tension from "Did it or did it not get aboard the ship ?". Well, at least it wouldn't be worse than in the actual movie where it was pretty obvious that Proto got on board. Without cargo lift scene you can have more time spent with Daniels and Tennessee running around trying to capture 1 Proto. Maybe even have some failed 1-2 attempts to seal it and having to come up with a better plan on the run. Also, did I mention cutting Lope being chestbursted ? Yep, just have him being slained unconscious in Med Bay by that 1 Proto 'cause as much as I love the movie 5-second impregnation thing was pretty stupid (and don't you tell me Alex White made it work in his books unless you want me to send you a pizza roll). Again, you have more time spent on one creature and it having more kills.
From a horror perspective the film was brillant, but honestly it felt like Scott made Covenant to be a remake of Alien so he could use all the CG he was deprived of in the past to make his vision come alive and appease fans who hated Prometheus.
My greatest issue with the film is David being the 'engineer' of the egg, facehugger, and Xenomorph. It flies in the face of canon that The Queen Xeno lays the eggs and if there is no queen, a drone mutates into one (Alien Director Cut).
I could forgive David being a cook who simply discovers the recipe that creates the Xenomorphs, and that others like The Engineers and Colonists stumble on the recipe too seperately.
Overall, Covenant is a good film if you ignore the retcons, continuity issues, and the bad pacing once you are in cave with David, where the film really slows down and frankly has poor aesthetic in my opinion. The film shines at the arrival, the exploring of the planet, the Neomorph incident and in the climaxes of the Xenomorphs first trying to board the shuttle, and later on board the ship.
Honestly however, Scott failed here storywise. Prometheus had a build up to seeing The Engineer Homeworld and an encounter with them on their planet, we hardly get that but in a rushed flashback scene. Worse Elizabeth Shaw, my favorite character since Ripely is killed off as an experiment by David. Really?! She saved his life and gave him an existence beyond being a decapitated head. He'd have never been able to play biologist and bioengineer if it weren't for Shaw! But most glaring is David being the father of the Xenomorph. This is like Disney who sweeped SW Expanded Universe into Legends and said it aint canon. Now all these Alien and Alien vs Predator books, comics, games, and worse even canon films (a la Aliens, Alien 3, and Ressurection) don't jive, having been contradicted by this violent retcon/ reboot of Alien Covenant. Why oh why must good stories be called legends and not be used, and instead contradictions and continuity messes are called canon?! Ugh rant over.
Covenant is a good film if you just decide its the Original Alien rebooted. Otherwise the plot holes and continuity issues will make parts of it unbearable to fans.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 08, 2021, 08:49:19 PM
It flies in the face of canon that
(https://i.imgur.com/NNQq0RU.jpeg)
He's still saying it's a good movie, you know
He may well like it more than me. I think it's pretty mediocre with just a handful of highlights.
But my crusade against pearl-clutching, canon-obsessed internet-fandom is eternal.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jul 08, 2021, 09:37:31 PM
He may well like it more than me. I think it's pretty mediocre with just a handful of highlights.
But my crusade against pearl-clutching, canon-obsessed internet-fandom is eternal.
I cannot say who likes it more. You or I.
My issue isn't canon clutching, its that Covenant messed with both the canon and legends in a major way. Unless of course Scott reveals in a subsequent film that David is simply one of many who helps the Xenomorph come to life.
You can say whatever you want about David/Walter twist being far too predictable but for me David being the creator of Alien was a real twist of the movie I haven't seen coming
Quote from: Kradan on Jul 08, 2021, 10:17:01 PM
You can say whatever you want about David/Walter twist being far too predictable but for me David being the creator of Alien was a real twist of the movie I haven't seen coming
It does have a poetic flow, Weyland creates David, David creates the Xenomorph. Weyland seeks immortality, David seeks a different kind of mortality, a new life form which ironically is hostile to all life either directly killing it or making it a host that causes death. That David is like Shiva the Destroyer, and Weyland like Ahura Mazda The Creator is very intriguing.
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/3owzVYk3A2E572jRSM/giphy.gif)
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 08, 2021, 08:49:19 PM
From a horror perspective the film was brillant
Was it really though ? Not scary at all, a tremendous amount of cliches and deja vu scenes in the horror genre, and done way better elsewhere.
The Neomorphs were proper creepy. Other than that I didn't think it was very scary, but it's still good.
Yeah, I don't really consider Covenant to be a proper horror movie (which is a shame 'cause I really hoped it would've been) in a traditional sense. I watch it more for an aesthetic pleasure and David's shenanigans. Implications of what that batshit insane android was doing these 10 years are genuinely terrifying to me though
I guess, there's some horror to be had in Covenant but unfortunately the titular creature isn't the source of it
I'm not saying that Covenant is the best example of this, but I don't think it's a sin for gothic horror not to be scary. I see it as something aesthetically appealing and poetic rather than the usual spockiness and jump scares from traditional horror.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 08, 2021, 10:28:25 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Jul 08, 2021, 10:17:01 PM
You can say whatever you want about David/Walter twist being far too predictable but for me David being the creator of Alien was a real twist of the movie I haven't seen coming
It does have a poetic flow, Weyland creates David, David creates the Xenomorph. Weyland seeks immortality, David seeks a different kind of mortality, a new life form which ironically is hostile to all life either directly killing it or making it a host that causes death. That David is like Shiva the Destroyer, and Weyland like Ahura Mazda The Creator is very intriguing.
Prometheus rhymes with AVP, sometimes.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jul 10, 2021, 02:20:00 AM
I'm not saying that Covenant is the best example of this, but I don't think it's a sin for gothic horror not to be scary. I see it as something aesthetically appealing and poetic rather than the usual spockiness and jump scares from traditional horror.
Not unlike Guillermo del Toro's sentiments on viewing
Crimson Peak as a "Gothic Romance" rather than a "Gothic Horror."
Quote from: Evanus on Jul 09, 2021, 02:32:51 PM
The Neomorphs were proper creepy. Other than that I didn't think it was very scary, but it's still good.
Exactly, when the Neomorph tore out of its hist in the med bay, I was horrified. It turned my stomach. I am rather empathic, so when the Neomorph tore out of its hist I thought of myself and it happening to me and that have me psychological scare. Like in Jaws, thinking about it happening to you amps the fear factor.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jul 10, 2021, 02:37:12 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jul 10, 2021, 02:20:00 AM
I'm not saying that Covenant is the best example of this, but I don't think it's a sin for gothic horror not to be scary. I see it as something aesthetically appealing and poetic rather than the usual spockiness and jump scares from traditional horror.
Not unlike Guillermo del Toro's sentiments on viewing Crimson Peak as a "Gothic Romance" rather than a "Gothic Horror."
I thought that way when I saw Mike Flanagan's horror anthology on Netflixt. ;D
Anyway, could we agree that we have a group of unfortunate individuals being invited by a mysterious host to take refuge in a "dark mansion / castle" in
Covenant? The kind of place where dark secrets are hidden. :laugh:
(https://i.ibb.co/hM7VmNK/Image-converted-using-ifftoany.jpg)
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jul 12, 2021, 12:07:41 AM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jul 10, 2021, 02:37:12 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jul 10, 2021, 02:20:00 AM
I'm not saying that Covenant is the best example of this, but I don't think it's a sin for gothic horror not to be scary. I see it as something aesthetically appealing and poetic rather than the usual spockiness and jump scares from traditional horror.
Not unlike Guillermo del Toro's sentiments on viewing Crimson Peak as a "Gothic Romance" rather than a "Gothic Horror."
Think that way when I saw Mike Flanagan's horror anthology on Netflixt. ;D
Anyway, could we agree that we have a group of unfortunate individuals being invited by a mysterious host to take refuge in a "dark mansion / castle" in Covenant? The kind of place where dark secrets are hidden. :laugh:
https://i.ibb.co/hM7VmNK/Image-converted-using-ifftoany.jpg
Great parallel! I never considered Covenant a gothic tale.
Hey TQ I think this is your cue.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Jul 12, 2021, 12:29:59 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jul 12, 2021, 12:07:41 AM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jul 10, 2021, 02:37:12 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jul 10, 2021, 02:20:00 AM
I'm not saying that Covenant is the best example of this, but I don't think it's a sin for gothic horror not to be scary. I see it as something aesthetically appealing and poetic rather than the usual spockiness and jump scares from traditional horror.
Not unlike Guillermo del Toro's sentiments on viewing Crimson Peak as a "Gothic Romance" rather than a "Gothic Horror."
Think that way when I saw Mike Flanagan's horror anthology on Netflixt. ;D
Anyway, could we agree that we have a group of unfortunate individuals being invited by a mysterious host to take refuge in a "dark mansion / castle" in Covenant? The kind of place where dark secrets are hidden. :laugh:
https://i.ibb.co/hM7VmNK/Image-converted-using-ifftoany.jpg
Great parallel! I never considered Covenant a gothic tale.
From John Milton's
Paradise Lost to Mary Shelley's
Frankenstein; or, The Modern Prometheus~ Better to Reign in Hell Than Serve in Heaven ~
(https://i.ibb.co/yFT4xV7/498173fa9d7182b31053e8886a154b79-gustave-dore-archangel-michael.jpg)
"Alienation:
Frankenstein suggests that social alienation is both the primary cause of evil and the punishment for it. The Monster explicitly says that his alienation from mankind has caused him to become a murderer: "My protectors had departed, and had broken the only link that held me to the world. For the first time the feelings of revenge and hatred filled my bosom." His murders, however, only increase his alienation".In addition to a lot of references to paintings by artists such as William Blake or Arnold Böcklin.
(https://i.ibb.co/vBqxxsJ/118.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/V9pkSRJ/Pics-Art-07-11-09-27-45.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/C1FNcHk/Pics-Art-07-11-09-38-35.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/txFjBn3/cOilFNI.jpg)
Muthur9000's Studio Yutani website was remarkably good at analyzing this movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28cnHQVhb_oEdit ~ TQ is remarkably good at analyzing this movie as well, as [cb] has pointed out.
Now I feel remiss, I read Paradise Lost and forgot that quote was from it. XD
"Alien: Paradise Lost" is even what Ridley was calling the film in interviews, before it was officially unveiled as Alien: Covenant.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jul 12, 2021, 03:34:15 AM
"Alien: Paradise Lost" is even what Ridley was calling the film in interviews, before it was officially unveiled as Alien: Covenant.
I wish he had kept the original title. Call the ship Paradise, which makes more sense for colonist ship seeking to make a better world.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jul 12, 2021, 01:28:50 AM
Hey T Q I think this' your cue.
I think I'll just repost this:
Quote from: Trash Queen on Dec 12, 2020, 07:56:04 PM
My final thoughts on Alien Covenant. Before the new Disney era begins. I think whilst most cinema goers enjoyed the film overall. A lot of people did not "see the forest for the trees" truly if you like. That does not mean it's exempt from criticism, the final act's an unnecessary mess for example, albeit with beautiful imagery. But I think the vast majority of criticisms fall flat when it's what the film's explicitly aiming for. Even the most often criticised human decision making because of genre expectations. Emerging from a general ignorance of the nature of biology, the simple fact being the likelihood of something so compatible, harmful and, instantaneous existing out in deep space's near impossible, ask any known Scientist, plus it's not like the crew's basically equivalent to colonists or anything, with an onboard computer that they have no reason to doubt and the film makes a large point of their decision being a combination of fear (getting back into the pods for another ten years may burn all of them alive like their Captain), obvious hubris (faith in themselves and their creations), and blind faith in the form of Oram the newly appointed leader. Plus David ostensibly saves their lives, whilst theatrical, he also carries the face of a man they have all trusted for years. The Neomorph's redefining of the Pathogen into something with consistent features' also much appreciated as the Praetomorph ancestor.
A man "othered" who's unrequited "love" leads to harvesting a woman's sexual organs to create a version of both an A.I and the human being together, to the form of a rape monster with male and female signatures intertwined at the root to dominate every other living thing.
The final evolution of three generations David considers "failures" ultimately, he's reached "success" that, according to "perfect AI" it is the one perfect organism, according to David Weyland and Ash, even Bishop and Michael believe it is magnificent, Soldier or Sentry, Praetorian or Queen, but perfection though perfection's something a human being can't even conceive of, never mind agree or disagree with, so we can't see the "perfect organism" objectively.
Now though, for the ones who subscribe to the interpretation that David did not explicitly create the familiar star beast and's not ultimately responsible for the thing's design, it's life-cycle etcetera, this' valid insofar that he's an unreliable narrator and full of egotism and recognisable grandiosity as a creator, he gets the author of Ozymandias incorrect and more importantly appears oblivious to the way the poem pertains to the inevitable downfall of kings and rulers.
(https://montages.no/files/2017/10/eye-reference.jpg)
Now Ridley Scott's explicit about David being the A.I creator, but Ridley, also insists on Deckard being a replicant in Blade Runner. Now his view's valid and can be supported by the film but so can the contrary. Covenant's very much similar given that the Pathogen's an ancient virus pre-existing David's machinations. It's clearly not the progeny of humanity's apparent otherworldly ancestors, perhaps the race simply came upon it once, wielded it with varying success but ultimately perished by it.
David's advantaged in that he's synthetic and immeasurably intelligent and thus can wield the fire of the Gods without the fear of being destroyed by it, thus far, anyway as it is, so more able to unlock the secrets within than any mortal did. Pity though, one note is off, David's unstable, and his "Praetomorph" the "Neomorph" successor not quite the biomechanical beast nor the life cycle he created from his crossbreeding experiments entirety in line with the classic life cycle we know, a certain step's absent. So it's just as valid to make the inference that the star beast existed in its original form at some point before it being liquified, atomised, honed, etcetera as the Pathogen, for whatever reason though. Now remains a mystery.
On the other hand, David as the creator's another valid inference given how resolutely evocative it is of human sex organs. It's a walking, murderous, drooling phallus with teeth. David's behaviour's touched upon by Dane Hallett and Matt Hatton specifically when he describes his pathos, the synthetic's built to be so close to a human yet can not procreate; he can experience a simulacrum of human feelings such as love etcetera, but remains ultimately incapable of exhibiting their function for mating. How does an increasingly unstable and luciferin Artificial Intelligence compensate for such internal conflict? Why... you create an organism that's a violent perversion of human reproduction, of course. The Egg, obvious yes? The Facehugger itself's two skeletal hands fused together, a vulva and a phallus and literally rapes the host, before providing it oxygen. This thing's adapted quite wonderfully to human mammals. Themes of artificial intelligence in technology, sexuality, life, death, their fusion and transfiguration's something H.R Giger explored throughout his art and a lot of the masterpieces he created exist as visions of the future not the ancient past. So David the creator's got merit with regards to careful consideration of Hans Ruedi Giger's themes in his renowned body of work.
Alien Covenant, from the outset presents the mentality of stripping away a lot of what hindered Prometheus with refining the creation narrative into one that primarily explores the tortured David and the experiments in his gothic Dracula and Frankenstein like lab tucked away on an obsolete Engineer planet. (1/2)
Quote from: Trash Queen on Dec 12, 2020, 08:01:22 PM
In a way it's more of a film on the subject of gothic horror romanticism with the history, the place in the collective psyche, and ultimately an examination of the way the death dream constantly underlies all fantasies of ego and eros. Director Ridley Scott reaches out for a hundred and one reference points, a number of them already plain in the Alien lexicon.The deserted Engineer city recalls the Cyclopean confines of the lost cities in Lovecraft tales, like At the Mountains of Madness, the Elder Gods all entirely gorgonized by David's inhuman perfidy.
At one point the Director explicitly recreates Arnold Böcklin's painting Isle of the Dead, an image that obsessed H.R Giger the crucial designer behind so much of the Alien mythos, one the aforementioned artist recreated in his own signature style taking it from a very natural piece to a very unnatural piece in appearance. Preoccupying him arguably as it did Val Lewton, that the often cavernously eerie psychological parables of redefined horror cinema in the 1940s, Ridley Scott no doubt with each in mind.
David's so called love for Elizabeth, now taking the form of relentlessly exploiting her body to lend genetic material to his creations, both reminiscent of a particularly tactile serial killer worthy of Thomas Harris, whilst the whole meditates as intensely and morbidly on the landscape of Edgar Allan Poe's poetry and the obsessive invasive eroticisation of the loved one's cadaver found within. The design of the unsuccessful prototypes furnishing David's humble abode, hung with sketches reminiscent of medieval alchemic ephemera, while an examination of the total human experience filtered through the more human than human artifice, visible to us through drawing parallels to the best naturalists such as Leonardo da Vinci, it also pays tribute to Guillermo Del Toro, and also poke the oeuvre back, for it's own debt to Ridley Scott and H.R Giger.
The fateful victim Rosenthal decapitated by an extension of David's will in the form of the deliberately spérmatozoa like Neomorph, ancestor of the Praetomorph, and ultimately no doubt connected in a way to the titular Alien, in my view recalls the religiously poised drowned Ophelia by John Everett Millais (1852), with the posture often repugnantly viewed as something erotic in the eyes of men over the years, with a vacant expressioned head floating in water in addition reminding me of Neil Jordan's self-conscious unpacking of fairy tales. Like in the famous story behind the painting Ridley Scott maintains an homage in depicting all of his female characters dying offscreen with his male characters dying onscreen, attacking that part of the audience more specifically, insisted upon by Alien (1979) and Dark Star's (1979) co-writer Dan O'Bannon. With the first onscreen death of Jacob Branson lampshading this connection immediately as he suffers a fate similar to that of the Captain in Dan O'Bannon's Dark Star, Alien's original direct predecessor. Taking place before the first onscreen death in the film, we do learn through revelatory experimentation of an offscreen one, in the passing of Doctor Elizabeth Shaw as the object of David's sexualisation before the story truly began and also then implied in the fate of Daniels Branson after the story's conclusion. David like the Alien itself requires hosts for reproduction, like each other their selection's purposeful, and visably delighting in the violation just as in the original film of Ash with Ripley and the Alien itself with Lambert.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/f8efcef63d5aa379014764b4becaa0c7/tumblr_ouj675woKx1wxda0vo1_1280.jpg)
Speaking of, later in the film Ridley Scott stages a shower sequence that sees Upworth and Ricks having a steamy minute under the spigot, only to be interrupted by an alien predator. At first glance this pays tribute to the infinite history of considerably trashier slasher films both before and after the Alien's first appearance, it does but it's also a final revelling distillation of the thesis of the film entirely killing the male immediately and tormenting the female, it is a confidently morbid examination of the empty cycles of desire driven violence.
I admire everything that Prometheus attempted, I still enjoy examining the film, and believe it an important piece of Ridley Scott's overarching science fiction investigations now fully formed in Raised By Wolves. Pitifully though I believe Prometheus itself never received the correct writers at all on the project, and yet even when completely filmed, the editing's even more entirely scattered. It is my observation Alien Covenant took what worked from it's predecessor and explored it in a capacity it managed, with much more relevance, and an internal logic that benefited the film. Say what you will about the titular Alien being created by David, but it thematically resonates with what we know about the thing as a biomechanical sexual monster that kills humans created by a rapist android that shows abhorrence not only for humanity or their creators, but the entire lineage of biological creation and the writing and editing's much more refined over in Prometheus.
And it contains my single favourite scene in the entire mythology, that being the prologue as we finally see a version of Weyland Corporation's founder worthy of the status it maintains today, three minutes of divine perfection courtesy of accomplished playwright John Logan the other writing staff and Ridley Scott.
Lastly even if you still can't stand the film for whatever reasons you have, it lead to the best piece of Alien media since the 1979 original in the form of Alien The Cold Forge and also Into Charybdis, and that's reason enough to appreciate it's existence. (2/2)
My girl's a smarty-pants.
Trash Queen:
https://youtu.be/_S67csvn_ko (https://youtu.be/_S67csvn_ko)
[cancerblack]:
https://youtu.be/CCCPcDq9CrI (https://youtu.be/CCCPcDq9CrI)
Basically
Can we try again without the ABBA?
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jul 12, 2021, 08:53:35 PM
Can we try again without the ABBA?
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/fr/cp0/e15/q65/216839608_335904871358009_7947525498760328409_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=vhZhWfQ-BG0AX8dNeE8&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=82614085b7ab8a01b8c8cd4dee93826b&oe=60F1DC52)
Thank you General Perez
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jul 12, 2021, 08:53:35 PM
Can we try again without the ABBA?
What's wrong with the ABBA ? :)
Pretty much everything?
You mean, the songs I've chosen or ABBA in general ?
If former, I'm sorry, I thought they were fitting and I was trying to make a joke :)
If latter ... I'm gonna be really pissed, drink lots of vodkaketchup and invade your country >:(
Yeah, that's right, I f**king love ABBA songs
Quote from: Kradan on Jul 13, 2021, 10:45:33 PM
If latter ... I'm gonna be really pissed, drink lots of vodkaketchup and invade your country >:(
Yeah, that's right, I f**king love ABBA songs
Every drink has a story...
(https://s6.gifyu.com/images/ThirdOfficialFallowdeer-max-1mb.gif)
...especially the Vodka-Ketchup. ;)
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jul 13, 2021, 06:02:00 PM
Pretty much everything?
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/fr/cp0/e15/q65/218038205_336718514609978_8743723889819308439_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=WiXcs6TAoAIAX8FscDH&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=16f66bea663945aba8a3d950272a5a6a&oe=60F43054)
Quote from: Kradan on Jul 13, 2021, 10:45:33 PM
If latter ... I'm gonna be really pissed, drink lots of vodkaketchup and invade your country >:(
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/3adc662798ff30b37da6a3352e2848c9/tenor.gif)
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jul 14, 2021, 08:58:56 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Jul 13, 2021, 10:45:33 PM
If latter ... I'm gonna be really pissed, drink lots of vodkaketchup and invade your country >:(
https://media1.tenor.com/images/3adc662798ff30b37da6a3352e2848c9/tenor.gif
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/3o7TKqgqfaGyyWSuqc/giphy.gif)
Mhmm we're having penguin tonight!
:laugh:
I'll bathe in his blood his meat in lots of ketchup
Quote from: Kradan on Jul 15, 2021, 05:04:38 AM
:laugh:
I'll bathe in his blood his meat in lots of ketchup
Friend Penguin.. mhmm good. Get it at Kane's Cafe. :D
Reporting you all for threatening endangered species, smh tbh.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Jul 15, 2021, 08:22:03 PM
Reporting you all for threatening endangered species, smh tbh.
Its all in jest. IRL I'd never harm a penguin.
Well damn, am i late to the party! Considering the film is 4 years old, I won't be using spoiler tags.
Having both watched the Theatrical and Chaos Edition versions of the film, I definitely have to say that it's a film that would've benefitted from the inclusion of certain scenes that created a better relation to characters from the opening moments of the film; effectively including the Prologue with David/Shaw to a certain extent, as well as the Last Supper, Crew messages, and the WY interviews.
Aside from characters, the gore of it all was really f**king brutal, and the story was interesting, albeit a light retread of Prometheus in ways. The atmosphere was great, the neo/proto designs were interesting, although felt underutilised until the halfway point/ending of the film, and the xeno itself was goddamn gorgeous.
Now i could go into a tirade about how the inclusion of Ridley's obsession regarding Androids and AI and the creation of life is starting to go a touch stale, especially with the mentality that he created the "first" non-traditional xenomorph, but i'd much rather sit on the sidelines and go by self-canon that Xeno Prime does exist, as well as the queen mother, palatines, praetorians, etc, and the Xenos are actually a creation from the Engineers, and that Predators hunt them for sport.
All in all, the film itself is quite a decent bloody and gory ride.
https://youtu.be/d4k_Dnrj7F4 (https://youtu.be/d4k_Dnrj7F4)
Video's in Russian but I'll be damned if guy doesn't make some great observations - for example, he interprets whole movie as a metaphor for humanity's overreliance on technology and, as a result, fear of pregnancy and natural birth which I haven't really considered before. Also, I was surprised to find out the guy is from Ukraine too
Quote from: RabidNinja on Aug 10, 2021, 05:45:22 PM
Well damn, am i late to the party! Considering the film is 4 years old, I won't be using spoiler tags.
Having both watched the Theatrical and Chaos Edition versions of the film, I definitely have to say that it's a film that would've benefitted from the inclusion of certain scenes that created a better relation to characters from the opening moments of the film; effectively including the Prologue with David/Shaw to a certain extent, as well as the Last Supper, Crew messages, and the WY interviews.
Aside from characters, the gore of it all was really f**king brutal, and the story was interesting, albeit a light retread of Prometheus in ways. The atmosphere was great, the neo/proto designs were interesting, although felt underutilised until the halfway point/ending of the film, and the xeno itself was goddamn gorgeous.
Now i could go into a tirade about how the inclusion of Ridley's obsession regarding Androids and AI and the creation of life is starting to go a touch stale, especially with the mentality that he created the "first" non-traditional xenomorph, but i'd much rather sit on the sidelines and go by self-canon that Xeno Prime does exist, as well as the queen mother, palatines, praetorians, etc, and the Xenos are actually a creation from the Engineers, and that Predators hunt them for sport.
All in all, the film itself is quite a decent bloody and gory ride.
I agree that the Engineers made the Xenomorphs, after all the black goo was theirs. Xeno Prime is an intriguing idea, I have always wondered what the aim of the Xenomorphs might be if allowed more time to evolve.
So humans made them? No thank you, I'll take David over that anyday, not that I love the idea.
Both are shit ideas that only serve to demystify the creature and it's origins.
Having David make them still reduces them to nothing more than a human proxy.
Not only, but that's indeed a consequence of the idea, if you want to say they're created by whatever the Engineers based their suits on that's long gone that's a definite improvement though imo.
Quote from: HuDaFuK on Apr 01, 2022, 09:40:40 AM
Both are shit ideas that only serve to demystify the creature and it's origins.
Having David make them still reduces them to nothing more than a human proxy.
I must confess I did prefer the idea in Alien that the Spacejockey was smuggling the Xenomorphs, that they are unique species they found in another galaxy. Alas.. now we have a convulted backstory for the most horrifying extraterrestrials.
If you think this convoluted you have not seen anything yet mate.
I was thinking there is a way tp reconcile all three origins of the Xenomorph:
a) They are from Xeno Prime, smuggled by the Spacejockey.
b) The Engineers created the Xenomorphs
c) David created the Xenos.
Here it goes...
The Engineers took Xenomorphs from Xeno Prime and started extracting their D.N.A. to create the Black Goo bio-weapon.
The black goo contains Xeno D.N.A and David in his experimentation isolates it and brings forth a variant of the Xenomorph.
This makes a, b, and c work.
I'm really interested to see how we'll be feeling about Covenant for it's 10 year anniversary. It seems a good amount of time to be able to step back and judge something. Partly I suppose it will depend on whether the story is actually ever finished.
For myself, I appreciated the design, look, direction and acting. Didn't really like the story and the direction it went in very much.
If it was its own thing, it would be 5/5. The med-bay scene I was literally biting my nails (the soundtrack was excellent). And I walked out of the theatre thinking it was, in many ways, a bleaker ending than ALIEN 3 (and that's a good thing).
But parts of it I found sour and unpalatable (no Shaw, David creating the xenomorphs) and unconsidered (absurdly short incubation times) and a loss opportunity (show us a glorious, strange and alien Engineer society and world, not Ancient Rome Post Holocaust). So I can only really give it 3/5 and feel sad about it.
Quote from: NecronomIV on Jun 18, 2022, 11:17:00 AMI'm really interested to see how we'll be feeling about Covenant for it's 10 year anniversary. It seems a good amount of time to be able to step back and judge something. Partly I suppose it will depend on whether the story is actually ever finished.
For myself, I appreciated the design, look, direction and acting. Didn't really like the story and the direction it went in very much.
If it was its own thing, it would be 5/5. The med-bay scene I was literally biting my nails (the soundtrack was excellent). And I walked out of the theatre thinking it was, in many ways, a bleaker ending than ALIEN 3 (and that's a good thing).
But parts of it I found sour and unpalatable (no Shaw, David creating the xenomorphs) and unconsidered (absurdly short incubation times) and a loss opportunity (show us a glorious, strange and alien Engineer society and world, not Ancient Rome Post Holocaust). So I can only really give it 3/5 and feel sad about it.
With everything and its flaws,
Prometheus was something like a
'Promised Land' :'(
(https://i.ibb.co/R6wPnDc/6k7vtg.jpg)
I haven't seen this film. But Prey has reawakened my interest in Alien and Predator so...
Is Covenant worth watching? Or is it better to skip it?
I didn't like Prometheus, even though it was pretty. I thought was empty and stupid. From either franchise I like Alien, Predator, and Alien 3, and I don't mind Aliens. The rest not so much if that helps you recommend it/not recommend it.
I liked it lot more than Prometheus. I would recommend giving it a watch but expect a very different Alien movie
I preferred it to Prometheus too. The first half or so is actually pretty solid imo. It just tanks once David appears.
Prometheus had vastly more potential to be a great movie. Covenant mostly aims lower and gets closer to the mark.
I actually liked David or at least the idea of him.
I'll check out Covenant this weekend.
I'm one of those ones that loves David and enjoys him in this film. But unfortunately I think it falters when the traditional Alien shows up as it feels shoehorned in.
I think Prometheus is the better movie, but if you want to see a silly slasher with an alien in it, it may satisfy you.
I find Prometheus to be the most unsatisfying film to watch, probably ever.
I think Covenant is 10x better.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Aug 13, 2022, 12:29:29 PMI find Prometheus to be the most unsatisfying film to watch, probably ever.
I think Covenant is 10x better.
What he said
Prometheus is Raised by Wolves Covenant Dark Star.
Alien Covenant
mmm rabid mad concept artist fixated on procreation (but unable to procreate) mocks the gods by creating a monster that rapes to live and lives to rape, all wrapped in a Hammer horror in space
too bad the entire script only works towards its goal because everyone is so god damn dumb all the time for very little reason (especially Oram) and once the actual Alien hits the screen somehow the movie becomes super-rushed, resulting in an anti-climactic climax, question mark?
Give me some more Neomorphs instead if that's what you were gonna do, actually give me all the Neomorphs mmm
also Waterston and Fassbender are H O T (separately, not together, ew)
definitely a movie I enjoy, unlike its abominable, rotten immediate predecessor with no name
Quote from: 426Buddy on Aug 13, 2022, 12:29:29 PMI find Prometheus to be the most unsatisfying film to watch, probably ever.
I think Covenant is 10x better.
Agreed. Prometheus is generally frustrating for me because it's unsatisfying. But I just genuinely enjoy Covenant so much.
The last part of Covenant with the Alien is the only real disappointing part of it for me. I think they had no original ideas to put the OG Alien in so it comes across undercooked and by the numbers. Ridley's bored of the Alien and it shows in that last part.
Quote from: PsyKore on Aug 15, 2022, 10:09:14 AMRidley's bored of the Alien and it shows in that last part.
Precisely. I just wish they'd have used the Neomorphs throughout.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 20, 2022, 12:01:19 AMQuote from: NecronomIV on Jun 18, 2022, 11:17:00 AMI'm really interested to see how we'll be feeling about Covenant for it's 10 year anniversary. It seems a good amount of time to be able to step back and judge something. Partly I suppose it will depend on whether the story is actually ever finished.
For myself, I appreciated the design, look, direction and acting. Didn't really like the story and the direction it went in very much.
If it was its own thing, it would be 5/5. The med-bay scene I was literally biting my nails (the soundtrack was excellent). And I walked out of the theatre thinking it was, in many ways, a bleaker ending than ALIEN 3 (and that's a good thing).
But parts of it I found sour and unpalatable (no Shaw, David creating the xenomorphs) and unconsidered (absurdly short incubation times) and a loss opportunity (show us a glorious, strange and alien Engineer society and world, not Ancient Rome Post Holocaust). So I can only really give it 3/5 and feel sad about it.
With everything and its flaws, Prometheus was something like a 'Promised Land' :'(
https://i.ibb.co/R6wPnDc/6k7vtg.jpg
I love Prometheus, it isn't perfect (what really is save Alien 1979?), but the wonder it displays and invoked in me is unique. It capture the Odyssey on positive level, while Covenant stays in Hades most of the time.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Aug 15, 2022, 10:42:34 PMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 20, 2022, 12:01:19 AMQuote from: NecronomIV on Jun 18, 2022, 11:17:00 AMI'm really interested to see how we'll be feeling about Covenant for it's 10 year anniversary. It seems a good amount of time to be able to step back and judge something. Partly I suppose it will depend on whether the story is actually ever finished.
For myself, I appreciated the design, look, direction and acting. Didn't really like the story and the direction it went in very much.
If it was its own thing, it would be 5/5. The med-bay scene I was literally biting my nails (the soundtrack was excellent). And I walked out of the theatre thinking it was, in many ways, a bleaker ending than ALIEN 3 (and that's a good thing).
But parts of it I found sour and unpalatable (no Shaw, David creating the xenomorphs) and unconsidered (absurdly short incubation times) and a loss opportunity (show us a glorious, strange and alien Engineer society and world, not Ancient Rome Post Holocaust). So I can only really give it 3/5 and feel sad about it.
With everything and its flaws, Prometheus was something like a 'Promised Land' :'(
https://i.ibb.co/R6wPnDc/6k7vtg.jpg
I love Prometheus, it isn't perfect (what really is save Alien 1979?), but the wonder it displays and invoked in me is unique. It capture the Odyssey on positive level, while Covenant stays in Hades most of the time.
Yes, even with better scripting/editing,
PROMETHEUS is a pretty unique "Alien" movie, and while it's true that each installment of the IP has its director's touch; they're all movies about people getting killed by the Alien.
Prometheus tried to be Alien's 2001: A Space Odyssey. The music, the shots, the scope...it definitely wasn't meant to be Amityville in space like
ALIEN. And yet, the premise of the 1979 film is the plot of a B-movie that, thanks to its perfect storm of talent, ended up being a landmark in sci-fi-horror. Just thinking in a 'perfect storm'
Prometheus makes me a bit nostalgic. Also, the
"Who Made Them?" like an almost cliffhanger, as everything practically follows the line of a Columbus-style voyage of discovery. After all, Ridley Scott directed
1492: Conquest of Paradise, which presents us with something that is discovered, but only future explorations will reveal its true condition.
About the sequel, too bad
Covenant didn't have 'Arrogant God vs. Raging monster' moments. :laugh:
(https://i.ibb.co/Z1qdTKj/Pics-Art-08-16-10-59-19.jpg)
I wonder if Ridley's origins ideas would have been better had he been able to do it circa 1990.
For me, Prometheus and Covenant are great ideas at heart but all the blocks are just in the wrong holes.
If it were all one film, it could have been genuinely great, but greed and overdevelopment killed that.
A.I. psychosexual madness creating the Alien from raw shoggoth material is not a "shit" idea in the least. It's totally consistent with Giger. He painted the future. It's a matter of execution going forward.
Drops mic.
As long as they include these juicy lips, I'm totally on board with the psychosexual robotic future.
(https://i.ibb.co/SJJGnQL/oe-Yguz-W3c-Fdus5gmawq-G3-UId-L9-Levb.jpg)
To this day I will never understand people who say the Alien prequels "ruined" the Lovecraftian elements of the Alien
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Sep 01, 2022, 03:54:39 PMAs long as they include these juicy lips, I'm totally on board with the psychosexual robotic future.
https://i.ibb.co/SJJGnQL/oe-Yguz-W3c-Fdus5gmawq-G3-UId-L9-Levb.jpg
(https://www.prime1studio.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/w/a/waal-03_b04.jpg)
Quote from: MaineXeno on Sep 01, 2022, 07:22:11 PMTo this day I will never understand people who say the Alien prequels "ruined" the Lovecraftian elements of the Alien
Depends on what you mean by lovecraftian - the term's been memefied to death so there's not one single meaning for it
I thought this movie was alright, but gets boring near the end. I was disappointed that Shaw's journey ended, and that David was the creator of the Xenomorphs.
Maybe a 7/10? I haven't seen it since opening weekend however, I do need to rewatch it.
I think Ridley should finish his trilogy, if only for closure and because cliffhangers suck lol but I do think after that, the origins of the Aliens should rebooted.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Nov 25, 2022, 07:11:16 PMI think Ridley should finish his trilogy, if only for closure and because cliffhangers suck lol but I do think after that, the origins of the Aliens should rebooted.
They can reboot it all they want just gimme that f**king third prequel GODDAMIT !!!
+ One on the "Let Ridley make his third prequel" train.
Do whatever you want after that. I'm excited for new visions - Alvarez's, Hawley's, and any others in the future - but I really wish that we could have seen Ridley's vision for the prequels (ever changing though it may be) through to its ending.
I would want another prequel, but with Damon back as the writer (or at least have the new writer focus more on the Engineers).
Quote from: thexenomorph on Nov 26, 2022, 07:53:01 PMI would want another prequel, but with Damon back as the writer (or at least have the new writer focus more on the Engineers).
That's genuinely the first time I've heard anyone wanting Lindelof back in franchise. I can sympathize with desire for more Engineers tho
Yeah he objectively took a dump all over Spaihts' promising script.
They should try to cut down on development time and budget: maybe a mini-series style (with a few episodes), virtual sets like Mandalorian, no A-listers, and released to streaming just to get it over with. But at least work harder on the writing, as that's not a very expensive resource but the most important.
https://twitter.com/steveasbell/status/1769109864842736062
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 16, 2024, 09:16:51 PMhttps://twitter.com/steveasbell/status/1769109864842736062
Someone to explain me this please 😅 I didn't understand it
Quote from: aliens13 on Mar 16, 2024, 11:14:22 PMQuote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 16, 2024, 09:16:51 PMhttps://twitter.com/steveasbell/status/1769109864842736062
Someone to explain me this please 😅 I didn't understand it
Steve Asbell (20th Century Studios' president) passed along Scott Wampler's (Fangoria contributor, formerly of Birth Movies Death, noted big Alien franchise fan on social media) comment about
Covenant being a "banger" to Ridley Scott directly.
Hope Ridley smiled at that one, 'cause
Covenant is, indeed, a "banger." 8)
I still stand by my love for Alien: Covenant and David and the Neomorphs (though I do think it falters majorly when the Alien itself becomes involved).
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 17, 2024, 01:51:36 AMQuote from: aliens13 on Mar 16, 2024, 11:14:22 PMQuote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 16, 2024, 09:16:51 PMhttps://twitter.com/steveasbell/status/1769109864842736062
Someone to explain me this please 😅 I didn't understand it
Steve Asbell (20th Century Studios' president) passed along Scott Wampler's (Fangoria contributor, formerly of Birth Movies Death, noted big Alien franchise fan on social media) comment about Covenant being a "banger" to Ridley Scott directly.
Hope Ridley smiled at that one, 'cause Covenant is, indeed, a "banger." 8)
Surprised Asbell is familiar with this British colloquialism.
Local is usually stumped when it comes to these kind of words.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 18, 2024, 09:11:00 AMI still stand by my love for Alien: Covenant and David and the Neomorphs (though I do think it falters majorly when the Alien itself becomes involved).
While I wouldn't say "majorly" myself, I do very much think that the third act should have streamlined things down to one single Alien (keep Oram's around longer, scrap Lope's entirely). The David/Walter interplay in the second act is the
real heart of the movie, though.
Quote from: 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔈𝔦𝔤𝔥𝔱𝔥 𝔓𝔞𝔰𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔤𝔢𝔯 on Mar 18, 2024, 01:35:05 PMSurprised Asbell is familiar with this British colloquialism.
He hangs out with Ridley on the regular. I'm sure he's learned a lot.
Also it would have been great for the Alien to fight a Neomorph, to win and then be defeated by Daniels in the crane.
A confrontation with a Neomorph is something that briefly happens in Foster's novelization. Can't remember if it was in the script or if it was totally ADF's doing, though.
Man...with a few more changes, such as; a little more Giger aesthetic in the citadel of the Engineers, a little Shaw before arriving at Planet 4 and keeping only one Alien...this could have been irrefutably the third best Alien movie with everything and its controversial approach.
I think it's easier to improve than Prometheus. Plus it has a great soundtrack.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 18, 2024, 02:12:17 PMA confrontation with a Neomorph is something that briefly happens in Foster's novelization. Can't remember if it was in the script or if it was totally ADF's doing, though.
It was in the script.
Quote from: 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔈𝔦𝔤𝔥𝔱𝔥 𝔓𝔞𝔰𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔤𝔢𝔯 on Mar 18, 2024, 01:35:05 PMQuote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 17, 2024, 01:51:36 AMQuote from: aliens13 on Mar 16, 2024, 11:14:22 PMQuote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 16, 2024, 09:16:51 PMhttps://twitter.com/steveasbell/status/1769109864842736062
Someone to explain me this please 😅 I didn't understand it
Steve Asbell (20th Century Studios' president) passed along Scott Wampler's (Fangoria contributor, formerly of Birth Movies Death, noted big Alien franchise fan on social media) comment about Covenant being a "banger" to Ridley Scott directly.
Hope Ridley smiled at that one, 'cause Covenant is, indeed, a "banger." 8)
Surprised Asbell is familiar with this British colloquialism.
Local is usually stumped when it comes to these kind of words.
Imagine I that English it's not my language 😂
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 18, 2024, 02:17:49 PMMan...with a few more changes, such as; a little more Giger aesthetic in the citadel of the Engineers, a little Shaw before arriving at Planet 4 and keeping only one Alien...this could have been irrefutably the third best Alien movie with everything and its controversial approach.
I think it's easier to improve than Prometheus. Plus it has a great soundtrack.
Hell yes, I'm agree with that. Also the third act I would make it little longer, for better preparation for the Alien. It would be so cool if we had an scene of the survivors after escaping Planet 4 and they having a dinner before going to hypersleep and the Chestburster coming out during the dinner
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 18, 2024, 02:01:40 PMThe David/Walter interplay in the second act is the real heart of the movie, though.
Amen to that
I think it would be cool to see the Alien Fighting other creatures (and preferably winning) in some kind of live-action media.
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/SU1pM.gif)
And no, I don't mean the Predator :laugh:, but some new monster that appears in an Alien movie, like the Neomorph in Covenant.
Like the Newborn?
Quote from: Wweyland on Mar 19, 2024, 10:55:51 AMLike the Newborn?
That freaking c**t traitor killed your majesty. So yes! especially that one >:(
Poor Newborn. :'(
Yeah ;)
(https://s12.gifyu.com/images/SUBaO.gif)
Newborn innocent.
Newborn tried to make out with its stepmother so it's a little sus at least.
Quote from: KiramidHead on Mar 19, 2024, 03:11:38 PMNewborn tried to make out with its stepmother so it's a little sus at least.
Stepmother? Pffft. That's his grandmother.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 19, 2024, 02:11:08 PMPoor Newborn. :'(
For real, poor thing lived for less than an hour and was killed by the only being it felt attached too
Quote from: KiramidHead on Mar 19, 2024, 03:11:38 PMNewborn tried to make out with its stepmother so it's a little sus at least.
Also anyone who's idea of a chatup line is licking someone's face definitely belongs on a list.
It's been nice seeing a lot of prequel love pouring out on social media yesterday in the wake of Alien: Romulus' trailer release.
Maybe the tides might sway and we might be able to get one last David movie out of Ridley after all, once the prequel revisionism hits in full swing...
EDIT: https://twitter.com/steveasbell/status/1770653968114516250
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 21, 2024, 12:00:08 PMIt's been nice seeing a lot of prequel love pouring out on social media yesterday in the wake of Alien: Romulus' trailer release.
Maybe the tides might sway and we might be able to get one last David movie out of Ridley after all, once the prequel revisionism hits in full swing...
EDIT: https://twitter.com/steveasbell/status/1770653968114516250
;D🙏 @Vermilion ^
(https://s9.gifyu.com/images/SU0Vk.gif)
(https://s12.gifyu.com/images/SVzdc.gif)
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 21, 2024, 12:00:08 PMIt's been nice seeing a lot of prequel love pouring out on social media yesterday in the wake of Alien: Romulus' trailer release.
Maybe the tides might sway and we might be able to get one last David movie out of Ridley after all, once the prequel revisionism hits in full swing...
EDIT: https://twitter.com/steveasbell/status/1770653968114516250
Good for Alien Covenant, the movie didn't deserve the hate that receive when it came out. It's a very good film, could be better? Yes, but still a nice entry to the Alien series. Prometheus for another hand... I didn't see it in years and all the things that I remember about Prometheus are the bad ones. Maybe I should revisit it, still I was thinking to see all the Alien movies for preparation for Romulus (except the AvP movies obviously)
Quote from: aliens13 on Mar 21, 2024, 08:20:08 PMQuote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 21, 2024, 12:00:08 PMIt's been nice seeing a lot of prequel love pouring out on social media yesterday in the wake of Alien: Romulus' trailer release.
Maybe the tides might sway and we might be able to get one last David movie out of Ridley after all, once the prequel revisionism hits in full swing...
EDIT: https://twitter.com/steveasbell/status/1770653968114516250
Good for Alien Covenant, the movie didn't deserve the hate that receive when it came out. It's a very good film, could be better? Yes, but still a nice entry to the Alien series. Prometheus for another hand... I didn't see it in years and all the things that I remember about Prometheus are the bad ones. Maybe I should revisit it, still I was thinking to see all the Alien movies for preparation for Romulus (except the AvP movies obviously)
Wait a minute...there are AvP Movies?
How dare they do it??? :laugh:
Quote from: aliens13 on Mar 21, 2024, 08:20:08 PMQuote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 21, 2024, 12:00:08 PMIt's been nice seeing a lot of prequel love pouring out on social media yesterday in the wake of Alien: Romulus' trailer release.
Maybe the tides might sway and we might be able to get one last David movie out of Ridley after all, once the prequel revisionism hits in full swing...
EDIT: https://twitter.com/steveasbell/status/1770653968114516250
Good for Alien Covenant, the movie didn't deserve the hate that receive when it came out. It's a very good film, could be better? Yes, but still a nice entry to the Alien series. Prometheus for another hand... I didn't see it in years and all the things that I remember about Prometheus are the bad ones. Maybe I should revisit it, still I was thinking to see all the Alien movies for preparation for Romulus (except the AvP movies obviously)
I was so-so about Prometheus when it first released. However, I loved Covenant instantly when it came out (seen it twice in the theatre), and because of my love for Covenant, I opened myself to Prometheus, which I've since reevaluated and I'm a firm fan of.
Quote from: Salt The Fries on Mar 23, 2024, 09:01:11 PMQuote from: aliens13 on Mar 21, 2024, 08:20:08 PMQuote from: Nightmare Asylum on Mar 21, 2024, 12:00:08 PMIt's been nice seeing a lot of prequel love pouring out on social media yesterday in the wake of Alien: Romulus' trailer release.
Maybe the tides might sway and we might be able to get one last David movie out of Ridley after all, once the prequel revisionism hits in full swing...
EDIT: https://twitter.com/steveasbell/status/1770653968114516250
Good for Alien Covenant, the movie didn't deserve the hate that receive when it came out. It's a very good film, could be better? Yes, but still a nice entry to the Alien series. Prometheus for another hand... I didn't see it in years and all the things that I remember about Prometheus are the bad ones. Maybe I should revisit it, still I was thinking to see all the Alien movies for preparation for Romulus (except the AvP movies obviously)
I was so-so about Prometheus when it first released. However, I loved Covenant instantly when it came out (seen it twice in the theatre), and because of my love for Covenant, I opened myself to Prometheus, which I've since reevaluated and I'm a firm fan of.
The same thing happened to me when I saw Prometheus in theatres, I didn't know if I like or not. Finally I decided that I didn't like it and despite of having it on Blu Ray I don't see that movie in years. Covenant yes, I love it from the first time despite there are things that I don't like it but I will give Prometheus another chance before the release of Romulus
I enjoy Covenant in Act I, the Backbuster still makes me ill lol. Act II has moments like David talking to Walter, Act III felt excessive, another Xenomorph loose and I never for some reason felt any terror. I do find the ending with David revealing himself Daniels and then the realization as he listens to Wagner and looks at his hosts for his experiments to be so sublimely dark, feels like true Alien.
If the Alien movie didn't exist before Covenant, I'd think the Alien was an inferior version of the Neomorphs that highlighted David's inability to be a creator, since his creation introduces major, unnecessary limitations in the reproduction process with no discernible payoff.
So not terribly keen on the last act.
Quote from: SiL on Mar 24, 2024, 11:47:10 PMIf the Alien movie didn't exist before Covenant, I'd think the Alien was an inferior version of the Neomorphs that highlighted David's inability to be a creator, since his creation introduces major, unnecessary limitations in the reproduction process with no discernible payoff.
So not terribly keen on the last act.
David in my head canon discovers the means to create Xenos, but the mural in Prometheus indicates the Engineers knew how and the Derelict in Alien (1979) is piloted by a Spacejockey/ Engineer which indicates they knew how to make them, unless of course David put his "successes" on board most Derelict craft and that is why the Space Jockey was chestbursted; I personally hate that notion. I prefer the Engineers knew how to create Xenomorphs, but perhaps they had not used human hosts yet?