Title: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:29:48 PM
Post by: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:29:48 PM
With Covenant taking place in 2104, and David having created the first Xeno via the facehugger that attacked Oram, I guess Covenant confirms once and for all that AvP and AvPR are not canon. AvP taking place in 2004 and AvPR not long after that. Even in AvP they reference 1904 in the film as being a date that the Alien Queen in that film was still in deep freeze.
Good.
Good.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Ingwar on May 13, 2017, 11:31:20 PM
Post by: Ingwar on May 13, 2017, 11:31:20 PM
Covenant doesn't have to confirm that. AvP movies are cross-overs. They never been part of canon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:34:01 PM
Post by: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:34:01 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on May 13, 2017, 11:31:20 PM
Covenant doesn't have to confirm that. AvP movies are cross-overs. They never been part of canon.
According to who? Both the AvP films and Prometheus/Covenant are produced by 20th Century Fox - and they have never (as far as I am aware) confirmed what is canon or not. The default position until Covenant was that they were canon due to being produced by the same company. Covenant confirms they are not though.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on May 13, 2017, 11:44:15 PM
Post by: Samhain13 on May 13, 2017, 11:44:15 PM
The avp movies were canon at that time, Anderson and the Strauses had said so. But it's a fictional franchise, they can change the "canon" in whatever way they like. Didn't Fox had said the new EU material was canon not so long ago? Well those titan books aren't anymore.
If Fox wants in the future to make a new movie that goes against Covenant they can, then Covenant won't be canon anymore.
If Fox wants in the future to make a new movie that goes against Covenant they can, then Covenant won't be canon anymore.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: fiveways on May 13, 2017, 11:45:42 PM
Post by: fiveways on May 13, 2017, 11:45:42 PM
Quote from: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:34:01 PMQuote from: Ingwar on May 13, 2017, 11:31:20 PM
Covenant doesn't have to confirm that. AvP movies are cross-overs. They never been part of canon.
According to who? Both the AvP films and Prometheus/Covenant are produced by 20th Century Fox - and they have never (as far as I am aware) confirmed what is canon or not. The default position until Covenant was that they were canon due to be produced by the same company. Covenant confirms they are not though.
Ridley Scott said they weren't included in the continuity around the time of Prometheus. So they have been out since at least 2012.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: klesk4ever on May 13, 2017, 11:51:50 PM
Post by: klesk4ever on May 13, 2017, 11:51:50 PM
Quote from: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:34:01 PMQuote from: Ingwar on May 13, 2017, 11:31:20 PM
Covenant doesn't have to confirm that. AvP movies are cross-overs. They never been part of canon.
According to who? Both the AvP films and Prometheus/Covenant are produced by 20th Century Fox - and they have never (as far as I am aware) confirmed what is canon or not. The default position until Covenant was that they were canon due to be produced by the same company. Covenant confirms they are not though.
Let's not forget Alien Colonial Marines were cannon for a certain time.
Fox didn't make a official canon, AvP is not officially a crossover.
Alien, AvP and Predator media cannot make a coherent cannon without butchering the whole thing with time travel and extremely improbable scenarios.
It is possible to create multiple possible cannons however in every one of those some content has to be rejected.
Do we really have to push our favorite version of cannon down each others throat to feel better about the whole thing?
Simply make your own version of cannon that suits.
My version of cannon has Prometheus, A.C. Alien, Alien Isolation, Aliens and Alien 3 (+ some other content) as Alien cannon. It is elegant, it has no holes, and I had also ejected Alien Resurrection from it and placed it into "that shitty alien movie" universe.
And at the same time I had made my own AvP cannon that includes all Predator movies, all AvP movies (and 2 games) and some Alien movies.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: DaddyYautja on May 13, 2017, 11:58:10 PM
Post by: DaddyYautja on May 13, 2017, 11:58:10 PM
Actually, Prom and AC are not canon.
They are their own continuity..... with Kenner toys.
They are their own continuity..... with Kenner toys.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:59:11 PM
Post by: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:59:11 PM
Quote from: fiveways on May 13, 2017, 11:45:42 PMQuote from: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:34:01 PMQuote from: Ingwar on May 13, 2017, 11:31:20 PM
Covenant doesn't have to confirm that. AvP movies are cross-overs. They never been part of canon.
According to who? Both the AvP films and Prometheus/Covenant are produced by 20th Century Fox - and they have never (as far as I am aware) confirmed what is canon or not. The default position until Covenant was that they were canon due to be produced by the same company. Covenant confirms they are not though.
Ridley Scott said they weren't included in the continuity around the time of Prometheus. So they have been out since at least 2012.
Do you have a link to a source/quote that proves Ridley said they weren't canon? That video you linked to was just Ridley saying he "doesn't know how he feels" about AvP.
Quote from: klesk4ever on May 13, 2017, 11:51:50 PMQuote from: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:34:01 PMQuote from: Ingwar on May 13, 2017, 11:31:20 PM
Covenant doesn't have to confirm that. AvP movies are cross-overs. They never been part of canon.
According to who? Both the AvP films and Prometheus/Covenant are produced by 20th Century Fox - and they have never (as far as I am aware) confirmed what is canon or not. The default position until Covenant was that they were canon due to be produced by the same company. Covenant confirms they are not though.
Let's not forget Alien Colonial Marines were cannon for a certain time.
Fox didn't make a official canon, AvP is not officially a crossover.
Alien, AvP and Predator media cannot make a coherent cannon without butchering the whole thing with time travel and extremely improbable scenarios.
It is possible to create multiple possible cannons however in every one of those some content has to be rejected.
Do we really have to push our favorite version of cannon down each others throat to feel better about the whole thing?
Simply make your own version of cannon that suits.
My version of cannon has Prometheus, A.C. Alien, Alien Isolation, Aliens and Alien 3 (+ some other content) as Alien cannon. It is elegant, it has no holes, and I had also ejected Alien Resurrection from it and placed it into "that shitty alien movie" universe.
And at the same time I had made my own AvP cannon that includes all Predator movies, all AvP movies (and 2 games) and some Alien movies.
I agree that the canon and order is: Prometheus - A.C - Alien - Alien Isolation - Aliens - Alien 3. I go back and forth on Resurrection, but would lean towards it not being included as its easily expendable.
I can't ignore AvP and AvPR as much as I want to - because so much of it thematically links in with all of the Alien films - the mention of Weyland, the smaller references, the design of the Xeno and the way they evolve etc. It all matches what was in the original films.
I just wish 20th Century Fox would come out and say AvP and AvPR are not part of it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on May 14, 2017, 12:03:17 AM
Post by: Samhain13 on May 14, 2017, 12:03:17 AM
Quote from: DaddyYautja on May 13, 2017, 11:58:10 PM
Actually, Prom and AC are not canon.
They are their own continuity..... with Kenner toys.
That's pretty much how I'm taking this whole situation.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: bacchus on May 14, 2017, 12:06:54 AM
Post by: bacchus on May 14, 2017, 12:06:54 AM
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 14, 2017, 12:03:17 AMQuote from: DaddyYautja on May 13, 2017, 11:58:10 PM
Actually, Prom and AC are not canon.
They are their own continuity..... with Kenner toys.
That's pretty much how I'm taking this whole situation.
Wouldn't this whole Alien universe be so much better off without Prometheus and Covenant? Or at the very least, a prequel with a separate explanation for the space jockey/juggernaut instead of all the engineer stuff.
Deep down I just think Ridley and others went too far with Prometheus and Covenant, and way too far from the content of the original films.
I'd truly forgive Ridley if he chose to scrap Prometheus and Covenant from the cycle and chose to do an alternative prequel with a different explanation for the space jockey.
There really is no need to explain where the Xeno came from - thats part of the mystery.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on May 14, 2017, 12:09:52 AM
Post by: Samhain13 on May 14, 2017, 12:09:52 AM
Sure... the prequels could have ended up better if they went in a different way but just like the avp movies, they didn't.
And that's all we are going to get.
And that's all we are going to get.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: FunkyJawa on May 14, 2017, 12:30:21 AM
Post by: FunkyJawa on May 14, 2017, 12:30:21 AM
The AVP movies? I remember Penguin, Predator, Pizza boy, Pred Alien and Pregnant lady. They certainly took the P.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Sway on May 14, 2017, 12:42:44 AM
Post by: Sway on May 14, 2017, 12:42:44 AM
I don't think any serious fan ever took AVP seriously. Especially those of us who were already adults by the time they were released.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: klesk4ever on May 14, 2017, 12:48:18 AM
Post by: klesk4ever on May 14, 2017, 12:48:18 AM
Quote from: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:59:11 PM
I can't ignore AvP and AvPR as much as I want to - because so much of it thematically links in with all of the Alien films - the mention of Weyland, the smaller references, the design of the Xeno and the way they evolve etc. It all matches what was in the original films.
I just wish 20th Century Fox would come out and say AvP and AvPR are not part of it.
Well it would be great if Fox made official cannon and timeline and regularly update it when something has to be ejected from it. Way better then all this problems.
Anyway check this out: Predator, Predator 2, AvP, AvPR, Predators, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3 + extra content that fits in (AvP games, comics etc.).
There, now we have clean Alien and AvP cannons and timelines that simply share some content :)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: bacchus on May 14, 2017, 12:52:10 AM
Post by: bacchus on May 14, 2017, 12:52:10 AM
Quote from: klesk4ever on May 14, 2017, 12:48:18 AMQuote from: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:59:11 PM
I can't ignore AvP and AvPR as much as I want to - because so much of it thematically links in with all of the Alien films - the mention of Weyland, the smaller references, the design of the Xeno and the way they evolve etc. It all matches what was in the original films.
I just wish 20th Century Fox would come out and say AvP and AvPR are not part of it.
Well it would be great if Fox made official cannon and timeline and regularly update it when something has to be ejected from it. Way better then all this problems.
Anyway check this out: Predator, Predator 2, AvP, AvPR, Predators, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3 + extra content that fits in (AvP games, comics etc.).
There, now we have clean Alien and AvP cannons and timelines that simply share some content :)
Look far better the way you've put it.
Prometheus and Covenant are so awkward and inconvenient.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: dookie on May 14, 2017, 12:54:30 AM
Post by: dookie on May 14, 2017, 12:54:30 AM
Quote from: Sway on May 14, 2017, 12:42:44 AM
I don't think any serious fan ever took AVP seriously. Especially those of us who were already adults by the time they were released.
This.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TheBATMAN on May 14, 2017, 12:55:33 AM
Post by: TheBATMAN on May 14, 2017, 12:55:33 AM
Prometheus retconned Weyland Corp. That was enough to confirm AVP as not canon. But I find it amusing that people believed they could co-exist and forced them together by inventing elements such as Guy Pierce being Charles Bishop's son etc. Now instead we have the David created/recreated the Alien argument which is essentially the same thing.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: gantarat on May 14, 2017, 01:02:57 AM
Post by: gantarat on May 14, 2017, 01:02:57 AM
Quote from: dookie on May 14, 2017, 12:54:30 AMQuote from: Sway on May 14, 2017, 12:42:44 AM
I don't think any serious fan ever took AVP seriously. Especially those of us who were already adults by the time they were released.
This.
That because both movie suck.3
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: fiveways on May 14, 2017, 01:29:56 AM
Post by: fiveways on May 14, 2017, 01:29:56 AM
Quote from: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:59:11 PMQuote from: fiveways on May 13, 2017, 11:45:42 PMQuote from: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:34:01 PMQuote from: Ingwar on May 13, 2017, 11:31:20 PM
Covenant doesn't have to confirm that. AvP movies are cross-overs. They never been part of canon.
According to who? Both the AvP films and Prometheus/Covenant are produced by 20th Century Fox - and they have never (as far as I am aware) confirmed what is canon or not. The default position until Covenant was that they were canon due to be produced by the same company. Covenant confirms they are not though.
Ridley Scott said they weren't included in the continuity around the time of Prometheus. So they have been out since at least 2012.
Do you have a link to a source/quote that proves Ridley said they weren't canon? That video you linked to was just Ridley saying he "doesn't know how he feels" about AvP.
Conversely, Ridley Scott had no interest in the Alien vs. Predator films. When asked in May 2012 if he had watched them, Scott laughed, "No. I couldn't do that. I couldn't quite take that step."
This was while he was promoting Prometheus. It was in Empire Magazine. That sounds like Scott, and Fox through Scott (as he seems to be the one calling the continuity shots) dismissing them completely. They didn't fit into his vision of the Alien universe.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:42:56 AM
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:42:56 AM
Actually, COVENANT does not make AVP movies non-canonical because if it did, it would also make ALIEN and ALIENS non canonical as well, since COVENANT denies the existence of a Xeno Queen, denies the existence of the Xenos prior to David creating them therefore even denying the existence of the Derelict with the eggs in it... I think COVENANT does FAR MORE DAMAGE than just rendering the crossovers non-canonical... 😉😞
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 03:46:31 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 03:46:31 AM
Quote from: klesk4ever on May 13, 2017, 11:51:50 PMI've been saying this for a good while now.
Do we really have to push our favorite version of cannon down each others throat to feel better about the whole thing?
Simply make your own version of cannon that suits.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:54:27 AM
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:54:27 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 03:46:31 AMQuote from: klesk4ever on May 13, 2017, 11:51:50 PMI've been saying this for a good while now.
Do we really have to push our favorite version of cannon down each others throat to feel better about the whole thing?
Simply make your own version of cannon that suits.
Canon is not an individual choice, it is what has been established as OFFICIAL by the movies... So, no fan chooses what is canonical or not, that is just a ridiculous proposition... The movies set the canon, not the fans...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on May 14, 2017, 03:55:17 AM
Post by: SiL on May 14, 2017, 03:55:17 AM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:42:56 AMIt does none of those things. The Queen can still come later, the derelict isn't as old as we think it is. The end.
Actually, COVENANT does not make AVP movies non-canonical because if it did, it would also make ALIEN and ALIENS non canonical as well, since COVENANT denies the existence of a Xeno Queen, denies the existence of the Xenos prior to David creating them therefore even denying the existence of the Derelict with the eggs in it... I think COVENANT does FAR MORE DAMAGE than just rendering the crossovers non-canonical... 😉😞
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:59:20 AM
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:59:20 AM
Quote from: SiL on May 14, 2017, 03:55:17 AMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:42:56 AMIt does none of those things. The Queen can still come later, the derelict isn't as old as we think it is. The end.
Actually, COVENANT does not make AVP movies non-canonical because if it did, it would also make ALIEN and ALIENS non canonical as well, since COVENANT denies the existence of a Xeno Queen, denies the existence of the Xenos prior to David creating them therefore even denying the existence of the Derelict with the eggs in it... I think COVENANT does FAR MORE DAMAGE than just rendering the crossovers non-canonical... 😉😞
No, it can't...Scientifically, it can't... And the Derelict with the eggs on it is far older than just a decade... SiL, denial is cute, but you know Ridley has just retconned the hell outta the first two movies... David is the creator of Xenos now... Forget about Giger's ALIEN mural, forget about the Queen... Now, the eggs came first, not the chicken... 😂
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on May 14, 2017, 04:22:12 AM
Post by: SiL on May 14, 2017, 04:22:12 AM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:59:20 AMThrowing the word "scientifically" into the sentence doesn't make your comment true.
No, it can't...Scientifically, it can't...
QuoteAnd the Derelict with the eggs on it is far older than just a decade...Apparently not. The only thing to say otherwise is a single line from one person taking one look at the Jockey.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: gantarat on May 14, 2017, 04:31:03 AM
Post by: gantarat on May 14, 2017, 04:31:03 AM
I don't expect to see queen on ridley movie.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 04:40:36 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 04:40:36 AM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:54:27 AMSure it is, watch:Quote from: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 03:46:31 AMQuote from: klesk4ever on May 13, 2017, 11:51:50 PMI've been saying this for a good while now.
Do we really have to push our favorite version of cannon down each others throat to feel better about the whole thing?
Simply make your own version of cannon that suits.
Canon is not an individual choice, it is what has been established as OFFICIAL by the movies... So, no fan chooses what is canonical or not, that is just a ridiculous proposition... The movies set the canon, not the fans...
I see the Space Jockey and Engineers as two different things, and can make a case for it based on my interpretations of the movies.
Now, I guess it's up to you to stop me? Or is FOX going to kick in my door and take all my Aliens merchandise away for not following "the canon"?
Quote from: SiL on May 14, 2017, 04:22:12 AMWell that and just looking at the thing, it looks old as shit (and was intentionally designed by the filmmakers to appear that way).QuoteAnd the Derelict with the eggs on it is far older than just a decade...Apparently not. The only thing to say otherwise is a single line from one person taking one look at the Jockey.
Like, making the Derelict not-ancient is a pretty blatant and obvious retcon of the intent behind what we saw in 'Alien', and Ridley Scott would be the first to admit it (just as he did when he talked about the Space Jockey in the preface to the 'Prometheus' art book).
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 04:52:09 AM
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 04:52:09 AM
Quote from: SiL on May 14, 2017, 04:22:12 AMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:59:20 AMThrowing the word "scientifically" into the sentence doesn't make your comment true.
No, it can't...Scientifically, it can't...QuoteAnd the Derelict with the eggs on it is far older than just a decade...Apparently not. The only thing to say otherwise is a single line from one person taking one look at the Jockey.
We are fans, SiL... Hardly anything we say is true... We just think it is...😂😜 Still, ALIENS established the eggs came from a Queen, not preexisting it... That is science... And since there was no scientific explanation given as to how David manage to create a three-stage creature lifecycle, the Queen makes sense, this retarded retcon does not... And be honest, before PROMETHEUS, did you ever question Dallas' remark... EVERYONE stated the Derelict was very old, like millenia-old... But since Ridley, who said himself before the Derelict was indeed more than decades' old, now changed his tune to fit his creative agenda, and now makes people question Dallas... And actually, the SpaceJockey's corpse would not deteriorate like on Earth for lack of microorganisms... So, it would become rock hard like it was, and certainly, what Dallas meant was not fossilized but CALCIFIED, like the facehugger Miller analyzed in AVP... Which would mean that the Engineer Spacejockey would have to have been dead for more than decades for that to happen... So, if science does not matter in science-fiction, like eggs coming from an android's arse instead of a Queen, or an Engineer ship seemingly dated, in ALIEN AND IN PROMETHEUS but now denied in AC, as having landed about the same time the outbreak occurred on the next moon over, which would make far more sense than this new AC nonsense, then this is no science-fiction, but just fiction...And a very incoherent, inconsistent one at that...
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 04:40:36 AMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:54:27 AMSure it is, watch:Quote from: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 03:46:31 AMQuote from: klesk4ever on May 13, 2017, 11:51:50 PMI've been saying this for a good while now.
Do we really have to push our favorite version of cannon down each others throat to feel better about the whole thing?
Simply make your own version of cannon that suits.
Canon is not an individual choice, it is what has been established as OFFICIAL by the movies... So, no fan chooses what is canonical or not, that is just a ridiculous proposition... The movies set the canon, not the fans...
I see the Space Jockey and Engineers as two different things, and can make a case for it based on my interpretations of the movies.
Now, I guess it's up to you to stop me? Or is FOX going to kick in my door and take all my Aliens merchandise away for not following "the canon"?Quote from: SiL on May 14, 2017, 04:22:12 AMWell that and just looking at the thing, it looks old as shit (and was intentionally designed by the filmmakers to appear that way).QuoteAnd the Derelict with the eggs on it is far older than just a decade...Apparently not. The only thing to say otherwise is a single line from one person taking one look at the Jockey.
Like, making the Derelict not-ancient is a pretty blatant and obvious retcon of the intent behind what we saw in 'Alien', and Ridley Scott would be the first to admit it (just as he did when he talked about the Space Jockey in the preface to the 'Prometheus' art book).
Not at all... Your take is just objectively inconsistent with what transpires from the movies... It is just your unsubstantiated opinion... 😁 and why would I wanna stop you making me laugh...? Two different beings flying very identical ships... gotcha... And can you quote what Ridley said...? I do not have the book... But I agree, a retcon is usually a lazy narrative tool when you do not want to do fit your prequel to the original but rather change the original to fit your prequel... Very lazy and creatively bankrupt way to address the elephant in the room...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 05:01:36 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 05:01:36 AM
To be fair, the Alien series has always played it real fast and loose with "science" since the first movie. Faster-than-light travel is "scientifically" impossible, as is artificial gravity as portrayed in the movies. The Alien itself is an "impossible" creature with abilities beyond anything we know of (such as the gestation period, rapid growth rate, or the ability to stick to walls, to name a few off the top of my head), and the acid blood is wildly inconsistent from one scene to the next in order to serve the plot. The motion trackers shown in the first two movies couldn't function the way they're depicted, as is stacking 99 10mm caseless bullets in a Pulse Rifle magazine as shown. :P
Is the Alien series "science fiction"? Well yeah, when it suits the plot, or when it's trying to make a thematic point. But it isn't hard science fiction, and the science goes right out the window the moment it doesn't serve the story being told.
If Ridley Scott wanted to make the Engineers and their ships 100% identical to the Space Jockey and the Derelict and erase all doubt, he absolutely could have done that. But instead he made a conscious choice not to.
Why do you think that is? :)
I don't have the Prometheus art book handy to get an exact quote (my copy is still in a box, I'm still unpacking), but he briefly mentions the Space Jockey and says something to the effect of, "When I was making 'Alien', the Space Jockey was a giant corpse. And then I got to thinking, what if it was a man in a suit?"
Is the Alien series "science fiction"? Well yeah, when it suits the plot, or when it's trying to make a thematic point. But it isn't hard science fiction, and the science goes right out the window the moment it doesn't serve the story being told.
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 04:52:09 AMNo, it isn't "objectively" inconsistent - the Derelict and the Juggernaut are different shapes, sizes, and designs, and the Space Jockey corpse looks similar to the Engineer "flight" suit, but the Space Jockey is much, much larger and has radically different proportions.
Not at all... Your take is just objectively inconsistent with what transpires from the movies... It is just your unsubstantiated opinion... 😁 and why would I wanna stop you making me laugh...? Two different beings flying very identical ships... gotcha... And can you quote what Ridley said...? I do not have the book... But I agree, a retcon is usually a lazy narrative tool when you do not want to do fit your prequel to the original but rather change the original to fit your prequel... Very lazy and creatively bankrupt way to address the elephant in the room...
If Ridley Scott wanted to make the Engineers and their ships 100% identical to the Space Jockey and the Derelict and erase all doubt, he absolutely could have done that. But instead he made a conscious choice not to.
Why do you think that is? :)
I don't have the Prometheus art book handy to get an exact quote (my copy is still in a box, I'm still unpacking), but he briefly mentions the Space Jockey and says something to the effect of, "When I was making 'Alien', the Space Jockey was a giant corpse. And then I got to thinking, what if it was a man in a suit?"
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 05:22:21 AM
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 05:22:21 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 05:01:36 AM
To be fair, the Alien series has always played it real fast and loose with "science" since the first movie. Faster-than-light travel is "scientifically" impossible, as is artificial gravity as portrayed in the movies. The Alien itself is an "impossible" creature with abilities beyond anything we know of (such as the gestation period, rapid growth rate, or the ability to stick to walls, to name a few off the top of my head), and the acid blood is wildly inconsistent from one scene to the next in order to serve the plot. The motion trackers shown in the first two movies couldn't function the way they're depicted, as is stacking 99 10mm caseless bullets in a Pulse Rifle magazine as shown. :P
Is the Alien series "science fiction"? Well yeah, when it suits the plot, or when it's trying to make a thematic point. But it isn't hard science fiction, and the science goes right out the window the moment it doesn't serve the story being told.Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 04:52:09 AMNo, it isn't "objectively" inconsistent - the Derelict and the Juggernaut are different shapes, sizes, and designs, and the Space Jockey corpse looks similar to the Engineer "flight" suit, but the Space Jockey is much, much larger and has radically different proportions.
Not at all... Your take is just objectively inconsistent with what transpires from the movies... It is just your unsubstantiated opinion... 😁 and why would I wanna stop you making me laugh...? Two different beings flying very identical ships... gotcha... And can you quote what Ridley said...? I do not have the book... But I agree, a retcon is usually a lazy narrative tool when you do not want to do fit your prequel to the original but rather change the original to fit your prequel... Very lazy and creatively bankrupt way to address the elephant in the room...
If Ridley Scott wanted to make the Engineers and their ships 100% identical to the Space Jockey and the Derelict and erase all doubt, he absolutely could have done that. But instead he made a conscious choice not to.
Why do you think that is? :)
I don't have the Prometheus art book handy to get an exact quote (my copy is still in a box, I'm still unpacking), but he briefly mentions the Space Jockey and says something to the effect of, "When I was making 'Alien', the Space Jockey was a giant corpse. And then I got to thinking, what if it was a man in a suit?"
First part, partially concur... Second part, absolutely not... the Derelict and the Juggernaut are externally identical in shape, size, etc... And the pilot's chair, idem... Ridley just developed it more in P, whereas in ALIEN, he needed not to... nor did he have Giger anymore to make it more visually consistent... And you know full well that the practical reason the Engineer is shorter is because he would have had to be an expensive visual effect, hence why Ridley chose Ian White, a 2-meter guy, to portray him... why not just make him more human regular size, if Ridley was not trying to approximate the Engineer size to the Jockey one...?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 05:36:34 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 05:36:34 AM
No, they are not identical. The Juggernaut is round-shaped, so it can roll - the Derelict is shaped like a "U".
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcVlqbj0.jpg&hash=c569ae5a2d92e6477b7e12484d0c7291ca0d4905)
They are similar, but they are not the same. :)
Also Giger worked in 'Prometheus' (he designed the mural).
Even if he didn't have Giger around, there are countless artists who are capable of closely copying Giger's style (and have done so in Alien comic books and video games), and yet Prometheus' designs look distinctly different from what we saw in 'Alien'.
As I said, if Ridley Scott wanted to make it identical to 'Alien', he absolutely could have done so - and yet he chose not to.
There's no way making the Engineers the same height as the Space Jockey (and same proportions (http://i.imgur.com/haRmk1W.jpg), don't forget about that) would have been "too expensive" - the entire Lord of the Rings and Hobbit trilogies did it constantly when putting the Hobbits near other characters.
Again, if Ridley Scott had wanted to make the Engineers as big as the Space Jockey, he absolutely could have done it.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcVlqbj0.jpg&hash=c569ae5a2d92e6477b7e12484d0c7291ca0d4905)
They are similar, but they are not the same. :)
Also Giger worked in 'Prometheus' (he designed the mural).
Even if he didn't have Giger around, there are countless artists who are capable of closely copying Giger's style (and have done so in Alien comic books and video games), and yet Prometheus' designs look distinctly different from what we saw in 'Alien'.
As I said, if Ridley Scott wanted to make it identical to 'Alien', he absolutely could have done so - and yet he chose not to.
There's no way making the Engineers the same height as the Space Jockey (and same proportions (http://i.imgur.com/haRmk1W.jpg), don't forget about that) would have been "too expensive" - the entire Lord of the Rings and Hobbit trilogies did it constantly when putting the Hobbits near other characters.
Again, if Ridley Scott had wanted to make the Engineers as big as the Space Jockey, he absolutely could have done it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: windebieste on May 14, 2017, 06:09:29 AM
Post by: windebieste on May 14, 2017, 06:09:29 AM
It's not even the same vehicle. Why is this a problem?
The only issue - and at this stage, and it's not a conflict - is how that derelict got onto LV-426 in the first place? Especially with the cargo it's carrying, how do those eggs get on board..? That notion is still a long way from being explained to us.
This series isn't complete yet - and there's still a ton of questions yet to be answered. What's more, there's no evidence that suggests David is the Space Jockey. Who dreamt this bullshit up, Huh? Some ding-dong fan did. As we see in 'ALIEN: Covenant' He's no longer using the Dreadnought to get around between stars at the end of 'ALIEN: Covenant' and with at least one more movie heading our way, that's a lot of opportunity to explain what's actually happening with this particular mystery. After all, if that vehicle could fly, he'd transport his creations in it, right? Makes sense, huh..?
For all we know, the Engineers did create the Alien 2000 years ago and David followed in their footsteps. Hell, he may have even discovered their technology for doing so by living in the Engineer city for 10 years. The derelict may have been on Acheron as long as we have been led to believe from the beginning.
There's still a lot we don't know. People should do a little more thinking about what we have been presented with before pronouncements made that could easily amount to false connections based on their ill conceived biases.
-Windebieste.
The only issue - and at this stage, and it's not a conflict - is how that derelict got onto LV-426 in the first place? Especially with the cargo it's carrying, how do those eggs get on board..? That notion is still a long way from being explained to us.
This series isn't complete yet - and there's still a ton of questions yet to be answered. What's more, there's no evidence that suggests David is the Space Jockey. Who dreamt this bullshit up, Huh? Some ding-dong fan did. As we see in 'ALIEN: Covenant' He's no longer using the Dreadnought to get around between stars at the end of 'ALIEN: Covenant' and with at least one more movie heading our way, that's a lot of opportunity to explain what's actually happening with this particular mystery. After all, if that vehicle could fly, he'd transport his creations in it, right? Makes sense, huh..?
For all we know, the Engineers did create the Alien 2000 years ago and David followed in their footsteps. Hell, he may have even discovered their technology for doing so by living in the Engineer city for 10 years. The derelict may have been on Acheron as long as we have been led to believe from the beginning.
There's still a lot we don't know. People should do a little more thinking about what we have been presented with before pronouncements made that could easily amount to false connections based on their ill conceived biases.
-Windebieste.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 06:19:08 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 06:19:08 AM
Quote from: windebieste on May 14, 2017, 06:09:29 AMWisdom.
There's still a lot we don't know. People should do a little more thinking about what we have been presented with before pronouncements made that could easily amount to false connections based on their ill conceived biases.
-Windebieste.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 06:39:35 AM
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 06:39:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 05:36:34 AM
No, they are not identical. The Juggernaut is round-shaped, so it can roll - the Derelict is shaped like a "U".
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcVlqbj0.jpg&hash=c569ae5a2d92e6477b7e12484d0c7291ca0d4905)
They are similar, but they are not the same. :)
Also Giger worked in 'Prometheus' (he designed the mural).
Even if he didn't have Giger around, there are countless artists who are capable of closely copying Giger's style (and have done so in Alien comic books and video games), and yet Prometheus' designs look distinctly different from what we saw in 'Alien'.
As I said, if Ridley Scott wanted to make it identical to 'Alien', he absolutely could have done so - and yet he chose not to.
There's no way making the Engineers the same height as the Space Jockey (and same proportions (http://i.imgur.com/haRmk1W.jpg), don't forget about that) would have been "too expensive" - the entire Lord of the Rings and Hobbit trilogies did it constantly when putting the Hobbits near other characters.
Again, if Ridley Scott had wanted to make the Engineers as big as the Space Jockey, he absolutely could have done it.
The design PROVE they are from the same race, so your first claim has been debunked by yourself... And again, unless Ridley wanted to spend money on VFX for the size, he coulda, but FOX would be breathing down his neck... And again, Ridley made the Engineers much taller than humans, proof that he was trying to approach their size to the SpaceJockeys... Your theory has no legs... They wear the same helmets, the ships have the same pilot chamber, same pilot chair... They are the same species... Different species would not be so similar in tech, ship exterior and interior design... The differences are minimal and surely do not show they are from different species as you claim...
Also, did you see the sheer size of the SpaceJockey...!? Forced perspective would definitely not be enough... And for what Ridley had the Engineer do, it would not work... Ergo, VFX...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 07:06:48 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 07:06:48 AM
QuoteThe design PROVE they are from the same raceHow?
QuoteDifferent species would not be so similar in tech, ship exterior and interior design.Why not?
QuoteThe differences are minimal and surely do not show they are from different species as you claim...That's your interpretation and you're welcome to it. :)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 07:08:44 AM
Post by: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 07:08:44 AM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 06:39:35 AMQuote from: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 05:36:34 AM
No, they are not identical. The Juggernaut is round-shaped, so it can roll - the Derelict is shaped like a "U".
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcVlqbj0.jpg&hash=c569ae5a2d92e6477b7e12484d0c7291ca0d4905)
They are similar, but they are not the same. :)
Also Giger worked in 'Prometheus' (he designed the mural).
Even if he didn't have Giger around, there are countless artists who are capable of closely copying Giger's style (and have done so in Alien comic books and video games), and yet Prometheus' designs look distinctly different from what we saw in 'Alien'.
As I said, if Ridley Scott wanted to make it identical to 'Alien', he absolutely could have done so - and yet he chose not to.
There's no way making the Engineers the same height as the Space Jockey (and same proportions (http://i.imgur.com/haRmk1W.jpg), don't forget about that) would have been "too expensive" - the entire Lord of the Rings and Hobbit trilogies did it constantly when putting the Hobbits near other characters.
Again, if Ridley Scott had wanted to make the Engineers as big as the Space Jockey, he absolutely could have done it.
The design PROVE they are from the same race, so your first claim has been debunked by yourself... And again, unless Ridley wanted to spend money on VFX for the size, he coulda, but FOX would be breathing down his neck... And again, Ridley made the Engineers much taller than humans, proof that he was trying to approach their size to the SpaceJockeys... Your theory has no legs... They wear the same helmets, the ships have the same pilot chamber, same pilot chair... They are the same species... Different species would not be so similar in tech, ship exterior and interior design... The differences are minimal and surely do not show they are from different species as you claim...
Also, did you see the sheer size of the SpaceJockey...!? Forced perspective would definitely not be enough... And for what Ridley had the Engineer do, it would not work... Ergo, VFX...
How is his first comment debunked by himself? Also. How can "Scientifically" the queen not come later? Explain please
As far as i am concerned, the queen can be an evolution a generation down. I mean. Its not a stretch. Going by Covenant, the Xenos creation has its origins in the Black goo, which is a mutagen. As stated. It does a large variety of stuff so why not speed up the evolution of the Xeno's
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Le Celticant on May 14, 2017, 07:25:52 AM
Post by: Le Celticant on May 14, 2017, 07:25:52 AM
There's not just the outside of the ship itself that differs.
The space jockey/engineer is different, the Orrery is different, the chair is different, corridors are different, the carge is different, the size is different (the derelict is vastly bigger). The entire technology in fact seems different, it looks like it is "inspired" from the Space Jockey of Alien but that it's not really the same specie as things look too sophisticated and very "human" in their design while alien clearly had unknown Alien technology.
So there are at least two ways to see this:
-The Engineer and Space jockey are not related at all but the engineer were inspired by the Space Jockey from Alien.
-The Engineer are the Space Jockey, in which case then, 30 years later, it makes sense to not just "reproduce" but to make new design which is perfectly understandable but also necessary because Giger isn't in shape to comes up with a lot of things and Ridley (like every director) must be bored to hell to just "reproduce" something without having a creative input.
And I do think it's option B. Then is the Juggernaut the Derelict? That's another answer and I don't think so.
Will we see a Juggernaut or a Derelict design crash on LV-426? I do believe it'll be the juggernaut one but it doesn't change a thing, it's just a small design change, main characteristics are there and are completely similar (U shape, three vagina entrance, Orrery, Cargo) so yeah it's different but it's intended to be the same.
---
Concerning the Canon, they absolutely made AVP and AVP-R Canon.
Cos Prometheus and Covenant are kind of a remake of AVP and AVP-R, so it works more or less. ::)
The space jockey/engineer is different, the Orrery is different, the chair is different, corridors are different, the carge is different, the size is different (the derelict is vastly bigger). The entire technology in fact seems different, it looks like it is "inspired" from the Space Jockey of Alien but that it's not really the same specie as things look too sophisticated and very "human" in their design while alien clearly had unknown Alien technology.
So there are at least two ways to see this:
-The Engineer and Space jockey are not related at all but the engineer were inspired by the Space Jockey from Alien.
-The Engineer are the Space Jockey, in which case then, 30 years later, it makes sense to not just "reproduce" but to make new design which is perfectly understandable but also necessary because Giger isn't in shape to comes up with a lot of things and Ridley (like every director) must be bored to hell to just "reproduce" something without having a creative input.
And I do think it's option B. Then is the Juggernaut the Derelict? That's another answer and I don't think so.
Will we see a Juggernaut or a Derelict design crash on LV-426? I do believe it'll be the juggernaut one but it doesn't change a thing, it's just a small design change, main characteristics are there and are completely similar (U shape, three vagina entrance, Orrery, Cargo) so yeah it's different but it's intended to be the same.
---
Concerning the Canon, they absolutely made AVP and AVP-R Canon.
Cos Prometheus and Covenant are kind of a remake of AVP and AVP-R, so it works more or less. ::)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 07:29:12 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 07:29:12 AM
Could you elaborate on Covenant being a remake of AvPR? That's an interesting interpretation.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Le Celticant on May 14, 2017, 08:04:06 AM
Post by: Le Celticant on May 14, 2017, 08:04:06 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 07:29:12 AM
Could you elaborate on Covenant being a remake of AvPR? That's an interesting interpretation.
-Ship crash/arrives at planet and create panic with a lot of monsters.
-Chet/David making multiple baby monsters among population.
-Alien in the forest (I love this title).
-Alien LifeCycle/Reproductive method messed up to favor a poor script to move the narrative forward.
(I'm sure I'm gonna find so much more if you leave me time to digest the film and watch it again).
I was mostly joking but still, there are common points I disliked in AVP-R and I found myself surprised to see them in A:C seeing how Ridley loves AVP.
Otherwise it's still just another remake of Alien (1979) with Prometheus continuation added and AVP-R "action/decision" style.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 08:10:00 AM
Post by: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 08:10:00 AM
Quote from: Le Celticant on May 14, 2017, 08:04:06 AMQuote from: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 07:29:12 AM
Could you elaborate on Covenant being a remake of AvPR? That's an interesting interpretation.
-Ship crash/arrives at planet and create panic with a lot of monsters.
-Chet/David making multiple baby monsters among population.
-Alien in the forest (I love this title).
-Alien LifeCycle/Reproductive method messed up to favor a poor script to move the narrative forward.
(I'm sure I'm gonna find so much more if you leave me time to digest the film and watch it again).
I was mostly joking but still, there are common points I disliked in AVP-R and I found myself surprised to see them in A:C seeing how Ridley loves AVP.
Otherwise it's still just another remake of Alien (1979) with Prometheus continuation added and AVP-R "action/decision" style.
Lol ok. If you like
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Infected on May 14, 2017, 08:33:48 AM
Post by: Infected on May 14, 2017, 08:33:48 AM
Nobody wirh influence survived AVP incidents, and those who survived and try to tell the world, are laughed at in their faces.
If you survived AVP:R, and you tell the press why your city was destroyed, and you start rambling about aliens with tails and acid instead of blood, and another alien policeman came to hunt them and settle things, i mean reallyyyyyy
Avp does exists, and we need a continuation of these movies, there is so much possible right now and we have so much material, the right person could easily make the best and biggest of them all.
If you survived AVP:R, and you tell the press why your city was destroyed, and you start rambling about aliens with tails and acid instead of blood, and another alien policeman came to hunt them and settle things, i mean reallyyyyyy
Avp does exists, and we need a continuation of these movies, there is so much possible right now and we have so much material, the right person could easily make the best and biggest of them all.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yarko on May 14, 2017, 08:42:10 AM
Post by: yarko on May 14, 2017, 08:42:10 AM
Some of you talk about canon as if the Alien universe REALLY exists somewhere and consequently HAS to follow some rules.
For me there is not such a thing as canon in the Alien movies. They are all the product of its time, and they tell the story the artists (and/or fox executives) involved though they wanted to tell in each moment. Of course the derelict is ancient in Alien 1 (million years old), the Space Jockey IS NOT a suit with a big bald man ancestor inside, and Queens do not exist. Aliens were brough to Earth by predators in AVP and AVPR, but never existed before 2104 in Alien Covenant. While I intensely love this saga and is my favourite thing in pop culture ever (followed closely by Star Wars) I don't feel the need to force each individual movie into a global canon, I enjoy each one for what it is. Same with the comics, videogames, novels...
I think it's fun to try to have a personal canon, just to play around with these ideas and stablish connections, but it's better not to take it to far. Canon leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to suffering... canon is the path to being a hater and hating each new thing published in your purposedly favourite fictional universe just because it doesnt follow your preestabilshed notions of what can and cannot be ;D
For me there is not such a thing as canon in the Alien movies. They are all the product of its time, and they tell the story the artists (and/or fox executives) involved though they wanted to tell in each moment. Of course the derelict is ancient in Alien 1 (million years old), the Space Jockey IS NOT a suit with a big bald man ancestor inside, and Queens do not exist. Aliens were brough to Earth by predators in AVP and AVPR, but never existed before 2104 in Alien Covenant. While I intensely love this saga and is my favourite thing in pop culture ever (followed closely by Star Wars) I don't feel the need to force each individual movie into a global canon, I enjoy each one for what it is. Same with the comics, videogames, novels...
I think it's fun to try to have a personal canon, just to play around with these ideas and stablish connections, but it's better not to take it to far. Canon leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to suffering... canon is the path to being a hater and hating each new thing published in your purposedly favourite fictional universe just because it doesnt follow your preestabilshed notions of what can and cannot be ;D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 10:49:33 AM
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 10:49:33 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 07:06:48 AMQuoteThe design PROVE they are from the same raceHow?QuoteDifferent species would not be so similar in tech, ship exterior and interior design.Why not?QuoteThe differences are minimal and surely do not show they are from different species as you claim...That's your interpretation and you're welcome to it. :)
Because that is how reality, logic and common sense work... Two different interstellar species would not have such similar ships design interior, exterior,, etc... I cannot believe I am wasting time explaining the obvious... No two species are alike for many, many reasons... And this is no interpretation, it is a statement of fact, of science... That is like saying there is another human race out there in space... The basic darwinian laws of evolution negate it... I cannot believe I am actually having to state the obvious...😂
Quote from: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 07:08:44 AMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 06:39:35 AMQuote from: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 05:36:34 AM
No, they are not identical. The Juggernaut is round-shaped, so it can roll - the Derelict is shaped like a "U".
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcVlqbj0.jpg&hash=c569ae5a2d92e6477b7e12484d0c7291ca0d4905)
They are similar, but they are not the same. :)
Also Giger worked in 'Prometheus' (he designed the mural).
Even if he didn't have Giger around, there are countless artists who are capable of closely copying Giger's style (and have done so in Alien comic books and video games), and yet Prometheus' designs look distinctly different from what we saw in 'Alien'.
As I said, if Ridley Scott wanted to make it identical to 'Alien', he absolutely could have done so - and yet he chose not to.
There's no way making the Engineers the same height as the Space Jockey (and same proportions (http://i.imgur.com/haRmk1W.jpg), don't forget about that) would have been "too expensive" - the entire Lord of the Rings and Hobbit trilogies did it constantly when putting the Hobbits near other characters.
Again, if Ridley Scott had wanted to make the Engineers as big as the Space Jockey, he absolutely could have done it.
The design PROVE they are from the same race, so your first claim has been debunked by yourself... And again, unless Ridley wanted to spend money on VFX for the size, he coulda, but FOX would be breathing down his neck... And again, Ridley made the Engineers much taller than humans, proof that he was trying to approach their size to the SpaceJockeys... Your theory has no legs... They wear the same helmets, the ships have the same pilot chamber, same pilot chair... They are the same species... Different species would not be so similar in tech, ship exterior and interior design... The differences are minimal and surely do not show they are from different species as you claim...
Also, did you see the sheer size of the SpaceJockey...!? Forced perspective would definitely not be enough... And for what Ridley had the Engineer do, it would not work... Ergo, VFX...
How is his first comment debunked by himself? Also. How can "Scientifically" the queen not come later? Explain please
As far as i am concerned, the queen can be an evolution a generation down. I mean. Its not a stretch. Going by Covenant, the Xenos creation has its origins in the Black goo, which is a mutagen. As stated. It does a large variety of stuff so why not speed up the evolution of the Xeno's
Very simple: in nature, no species evolves in mere decades nor does an egg exist without an egg layer... ALIENS stated the eggs had been laid by an egg layer, a Queen... And the black goo is a scientific joke, with an MO all over the place... That is like saying Ebola or any other virus would mutate some, kill and paralyze others, even within the same species... We had a pile of Engineers with chestbursters, a decapitated Engineer dying from an airborne pathogen, clearly indicating that there weren't only black goo vases but also probably eggs there and the PROMETHEUS mural proves it by showing facehuggers impregnating Engineers much like the ALIEN mural did... So, I ask again, which was firsts, the egg or the chicken...? And lazily written deus ex machina ploys like the black goo are hardly evidence of anything but Ridley contradicting himself even within his own movies... He shows facehuggers in one movie and in the sequel, contradicts it right off the gate...
Quote from: TheBATMAN on May 14, 2017, 12:55:33 AM
Prometheus retconned Weyland Corp. That was enough to confirm AVP as not canon. But I find it amusing that people believed they could co-exist and forced them together by inventing elements such as Guy Pierce being Charles Bishop's son etc. Now instead we have the David created/recreated the Alien argument which is essentially the same thing.
Not really... Peter Weyland may well just be a descendant of Charles Bishop Weyland... Also, we see the genesis of Yutani at the end of AVPR, but since Peter Weyland and his only daughter died on LV-223, there is a power vaccuum in Weyland Corp, probably facilitating the purchase of it by the Yutani corporation... None negates the existence of the other... And since the movies, the CANON, does not negate it, yes, AVP and AVPR are still canon unless specifically stated otherwise either by FOX execs or ulterior movies..which has not been the case SO FAR....
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: EJA on May 14, 2017, 11:43:08 AM
Post by: EJA on May 14, 2017, 11:43:08 AM
Let's be honest, folks: Ridley's prequels are a joke.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: DestinyCaptain on May 14, 2017, 12:43:14 PM
Post by: DestinyCaptain on May 14, 2017, 12:43:14 PM
I love reading all the arguments about this. The fact is at this point, nothing in Prometheus or Covenant excludes AVP and AVPR from continuity. Nothing. Nothing says definitively that there was no Weyland Corp or Charles Bishop Weyland before Peter. Nothing says there was no Xenomorph before Covenant. Nothing. You can certainly interpret what is said on screen how you like based on what you choose to believe. You can certainly take the words of Scott to be gospel based on what you choose to believe. However, until something is definitely stated on screen without ambiguity, these things are still open to be connected even if you personally don't like them or count them in your own private cannon. Prometheus does not go out of its way to say that Peter Weyland built the company from his dorm room at university after being born to the perpetually poor and often bankrupt Ron and Sally Weyland. Likewise nothing in Covenant says that our favorite little monster never ever existed in an original form and wasn't stored as a DNA template somewhere in a vault by super smart blue Ubermensch Humanoids with a god complex. It's a good thing at this point on that last one because if it did, it would remove one of the top two films in the series from canon and almost effectively nullify the best stuff about it. So, lets all hope Ridley figures it out for himself that this is not a good thing and that he's wrong yet again and he doesn't double down on this line of thinking and fully canonize it. Hopefully it will just continue on as one of the many interesting but wrong things he said like the time he tried to say that the events of Prometheus and Alien took place in our solar system because he was slightly confused about planetoids names and locations. Hopefully other, cooler heads can be brought in to help temper his goofier ideas going foreword. They aren't all golden. Remember how the big chap was supposed to rip Ripley's head off and talk in her voice? Yeah, that was a keeper...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Marcus9000 on May 14, 2017, 12:47:43 PM
Post by: Marcus9000 on May 14, 2017, 12:47:43 PM
I like to think of AvP crossover films as existing in a parallel universe. Somewhere!
Ridley has said he was going to just do his own thing with Prometheus, and he isn't going to care what he does to AvP.
I enjoyed the first AvP with all of its At the Mountains of Madness influences etc but Requiem was a very violent and sick film. Not an enjoyable experience at all.
I am also sure that in the future we will have another AvP movie, possibly once Ridley has finished his prequels and after somebody has made one or two movies in that universe.
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Ridley has said he was going to just do his own thing with Prometheus, and he isn't going to care what he does to AvP.
I enjoyed the first AvP with all of its At the Mountains of Madness influences etc but Requiem was a very violent and sick film. Not an enjoyable experience at all.
I am also sure that in the future we will have another AvP movie, possibly once Ridley has finished his prequels and after somebody has made one or two movies in that universe.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Snake on May 14, 2017, 12:48:03 PM
Post by: Snake on May 14, 2017, 12:48:03 PM
AVPR will never ever be canon. It was shockingly bad and an complete insult to alien and predator-fans alike.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 12:52:05 PM
Post by: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 12:52:05 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 10:49:33 AMQuote from: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 07:06:48 AMQuoteThe design PROVE they are from the same raceHow?QuoteDifferent species would not be so similar in tech, ship exterior and interior design.Why not?QuoteThe differences are minimal and surely do not show they are from different species as you claim...That's your interpretation and you're welcome to it. :)
Because that is how reality, logic and common sense work... Two different interstellar species would not have such similar ships design interior, exterior,, etc... I cannot believe I am wasting time explaining the obvious... No two species are alike for many, many reasons... And this is no interpretation, it is a statement of fact, of science... That is like saying there is another human race out there in space... The basic darwinian laws of evolution negate it... I cannot believe I am actually having to state the obvious...😂Quote from: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 07:08:44 AMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 06:39:35 AMQuote from: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 05:36:34 AM
No, they are not identical. The Juggernaut is round-shaped, so it can roll - the Derelict is shaped like a "U".
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcVlqbj0.jpg&hash=c569ae5a2d92e6477b7e12484d0c7291ca0d4905)
They are similar, but they are not the same. :)
Also Giger worked in 'Prometheus' (he designed the mural).
Even if he didn't have Giger around, there are countless artists who are capable of closely copying Giger's style (and have done so in Alien comic books and video games), and yet Prometheus' designs look distinctly different from what we saw in 'Alien'.
As I said, if Ridley Scott wanted to make it identical to 'Alien', he absolutely could have done so - and yet he chose not to.
There's no way making the Engineers the same height as the Space Jockey (and same proportions (http://i.imgur.com/haRmk1W.jpg), don't forget about that) would have been "too expensive" - the entire Lord of the Rings and Hobbit trilogies did it constantly when putting the Hobbits near other characters.
Again, if Ridley Scott had wanted to make the Engineers as big as the Space Jockey, he absolutely could have done it.
The design PROVE they are from the same race, so your first claim has been debunked by yourself... And again, unless Ridley wanted to spend money on VFX for the size, he coulda, but FOX would be breathing down his neck... And again, Ridley made the Engineers much taller than humans, proof that he was trying to approach their size to the SpaceJockeys... Your theory has no legs... They wear the same helmets, the ships have the same pilot chamber, same pilot chair... They are the same species... Different species would not be so similar in tech, ship exterior and interior design... The differences are minimal and surely do not show they are from different species as you claim...
Also, did you see the sheer size of the SpaceJockey...!? Forced perspective would definitely not be enough... And for what Ridley had the Engineer do, it would not work... Ergo, VFX...
How is his first comment debunked by himself? Also. How can "Scientifically" the queen not come later? Explain please
As far as i am concerned, the queen can be an evolution a generation down. I mean. Its not a stretch. Going by Covenant, the Xenos creation has its origins in the Black goo, which is a mutagen. As stated. It does a large variety of stuff so why not speed up the evolution of the Xeno's
Very simple: in nature, no species evolves in mere decades nor does an egg exist without an egg layer... ALIENS stated the eggs had been laid by an egg layer, a Queen... And the black goo is a scientific joke, with an MO all over the place... That is like saying Ebola or any other virus would mutate some, kill and paralyze others, even within the same species... We had a pile of Engineers with chestbursters, a decapitated Engineer dying from an airborne pathogen, clearly indicating that there weren't only black goo vases but also probably eggs there and the PROMETHEUS mural proves it by showing facehuggers impregnating Engineers much like the ALIEN mural did... So, I ask again, which was firsts, the egg or the chicken...? And lazily written deus ex machina ploys like the black goo are hardly evidence of anything but Ridley contradicting himself even within his own movies... He shows facehuggers in one movie and in the sequel, contradicts it right off the gate...Quote from: TheBATMAN on May 14, 2017, 12:55:33 AM
Prometheus retconned Weyland Corp. That was enough to confirm AVP as not canon. But I find it amusing that people believed they could co-exist and forced them together by inventing elements such as Guy Pierce being Charles Bishop's son etc. Now instead we have the David created/recreated the Alien argument which is essentially the same thing.
Not really... Peter Weyland may well just be a descendant of Charles Bishop Weyland... Also, we see the genesis of Yutani at the end of AVPR, but since Peter Weyland and his only daughter died on LV-223, there is a power vaccuum in Weyland Corp, probably facilitating the purchase of it by the Yutani corporation... None negates the existence of the other... And since the movies, the CANON, does not negate it, yes, AVP and AVPR are still canon unless specifically stated otherwise either by FOX execs or ulterior movies..which has not been the case SO FAR....
Quite simple, nothing in nature was created from an alien biological weapon so id say you are wrong.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:39:00 PM
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:39:00 PM
Quote from: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 12:52:05 PM
Quite simple, nothing in nature was created from an alien biological weapon so id say you are wrong.
Wrong... Basic laws of physics, chemistry, logic, all apply... This is SCIENCE-fiction... And David had no gene splicing equipment in his cave nor any equipment for genetic experimentation... And where did his expertise in genetics come from...? Certainly not from Weyland's programming... Being an MD and a geneticist are two very different things... And he would contaminate the hell outta it's samples in that disgusting environment... Nothing in this movie makes sense, from the Covenant crew MO to David MO and motivations, David which would have been terminated by Weyland the moment he gave him that cocky response... Building an AI that is defiant is ALWAYS recipe for disaster... And his grinning, and likes are so off-character I never really liked him/it... And being an android, his motivations are laughable... And the Walter character made this far more visible... An obsessive-compulsive, genocidal android... Now I have truly seen it all...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Predaker on May 14, 2017, 03:57:06 PM
Post by: Predaker on May 14, 2017, 03:57:06 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:42:56 AM
COVENANT denies the existence of a ... Queen
No it doesn't. Covenant actually explains why queens exist.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 04:11:39 PM
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 04:11:39 PM
Quote from: Predaker on May 14, 2017, 03:57:06 PMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:42:56 AM
COVENANT denies the existence of a ... Queen
No it doesn't. Covenant actually explains why queens exist.
Really? How so?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Evanus on May 14, 2017, 04:15:48 PM
Post by: Evanus on May 14, 2017, 04:15:48 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 04:11:39 PMThe wasp.Quote from: Predaker on May 14, 2017, 03:57:06 PMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:42:56 AM
COVENANT denies the existence of a ... Queen
No it doesn't. Covenant actually explains why queens exist.
Really? How so?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 04:34:09 PM
Post by: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 04:34:09 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:39:00 PMQuote from: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 12:52:05 PM
Quite simple, nothing in nature was created from an alien biological weapon so id say you are wrong.
Wrong... Basic laws of physics, chemistry, logic, all apply... This is SCIENCE-fiction... And David had no gene splicing equipment in his cave nor any equipment for genetic experimentation... And where did his expertise in genetics come from...? Certainly not from Weyland's programming... Being an MD and a geneticist are two very different things... And he would contaminate the hell outta it's samples in that disgusting environment... Nothing in this movie makes sense, from the Covenant crew MO to David MO and motivations, David which would have been terminated by Weyland the moment he gave him that cocky response... Building an AI that is defiant is ALWAYS recipe for disaster... And his grinning, and likes are so off-character I never really liked him/it... And being an android, his motivations are laughable... And the Walter character made this far more visible... An obsessive-compulsive, genocidal android... Now I have truly seen it all...
Dude. You really are hard work. Like you say. Its science fiction. Anything can happen. Since when has gene splicing been anything to do with the black goo ?
I give up though. Ill not be continuing this line of discussion with you.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 09:40:01 PM
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 09:40:01 PM
Quote from: Evanus on May 14, 2017, 04:15:48 PMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 04:11:39 PMThe wasp.Quote from: Predaker on May 14, 2017, 03:57:06 PMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:42:56 AM
COVENANT denies the existence of a ... Queen
No it doesn't. Covenant actually explains why queens exist.
Really? How so?
Must be an alien wasp (yeah, the odds of that happening is zero) because Earth wasps do not have Queens... Look it up...
Quote from: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 04:34:09 PMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:39:00 PMQuote from: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 12:52:05 PM
Quite simple, nothing in nature was created from an alien biological weapon so id say you are wrong.
Wrong... Basic laws of physics, chemistry, logic, all apply... This is SCIENCE-fiction... And David had no gene splicing equipment in his cave nor any equipment for genetic experimentation... And where did his expertise in genetics come from...? Certainly not from Weyland's programming... Being an MD and a geneticist are two very different things... And he would contaminate the hell outta it's samples in that disgusting environment... Nothing in this movie makes sense, from the Covenant crew MO to David MO and motivations, David which would have been terminated by Weyland the moment he gave him that cocky response... Building an AI that is defiant is ALWAYS recipe for disaster... And his grinning, and likes are so off-character I never really liked him/it... And being an android, his motivations are laughable... And the Walter character made this far more visible... An obsessive-compulsive, genocidal android... Now I have truly seen it all...
Dude. You really are hard work. Like you say. Its science fiction. Anything can happen. Since when has gene splicing been anything to do with the black goo ?
I give up though. Ill not be continuing this line of discussion with you.
So where's the SCIENCE...? No equipment, no sanitary conditions to perform such precise tasks, no knowledge to do so, just written on the fly without any care... And in order to 'manipulate' the black goo, David would need microscopes and other equipment to do it... Where are they in that mess of a cave of his? Trick question, he couldn't have any because he arrived there in an alien spaceship... Like I said, Deus ex Machina... We just have to assume he has microscopic vision then... 😂👍🏻
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TheBATMAN on May 14, 2017, 10:04:38 PM
Post by: TheBATMAN on May 14, 2017, 10:04:38 PM
Quote from: DestinyCaptain on May 14, 2017, 12:43:14 PM
I love reading all the arguments about this. The fact is at this point, nothing in Prometheus or Covenant excludes AVP and AVPR from continuity. Nothing. Nothing says definitively that there was no Weyland Corp or Charles Bishop Weyland before Peter. Nothing says there was no Xenomorph before Covenant. Nothing. You can certainly interpret what is said on screen how you like based on what you choose to believe. You can certainly take the words of Scott to be gospel based on what you choose to believe. However, until something is definitely stated on screen without ambiguity, these things are still open to be connected even if you personally don't like them or count them in your own private cannon.
It doesn't have to. The intention was clear - as is the intention with Covenant to have David create the Alien. Some don't like that revelation so they invent things to suggest David was re-creating the alien, just like those who liked AVP invent a way for Charles and Peter to co-exist. That is fanon because in both cases because it goes against the clear intentions of the writer. Sure something might change in a future movie to mix it all up again. But as it stands right now, Charles Bishop Weyland doesn't exist and the xenomorph was created by David. It's as black and white as that.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Predaker on May 14, 2017, 10:08:38 PM
Post by: Predaker on May 14, 2017, 10:08:38 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 09:40:01 PMQuote from: Evanus on May 14, 2017, 04:15:48 PMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 04:11:39 PMThe wasp.Quote from: Predaker on May 14, 2017, 03:57:06 PMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:42:56 AM
COVENANT denies the existence of a ... Queen
No it doesn't. Covenant actually explains why queens exist.
Really? How so?
Must be an alien wasp (yeah, the odds of that happening is zero) because Earth wasps do not have Queens... Look it up...
Good suggestion. I found this.
Quote from: WikipediaThe most commonly known wasps, such as yellow jackets and hornets, are in the family Vespidae and are eusocial, living together in a nest with an egg-laying queen and non-reproducing workers.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 10:27:31 PM
Post by: Russ840 on May 14, 2017, 10:27:31 PM
Lol
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Le Celticant on May 14, 2017, 10:29:30 PM
Post by: Le Celticant on May 14, 2017, 10:29:30 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 09:40:01 PMQuote from: Evanus on May 14, 2017, 04:15:48 PMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 04:11:39 PMThe wasp.Quote from: Predaker on May 14, 2017, 03:57:06 PMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:42:56 AM
COVENANT denies the existence of a ... Queen
No it doesn't. Covenant actually explains why queens exist.
Really? How so?
Must be an alien wasp (yeah, the odds of that happening is zero) because Earth wasps do not have Queens... Look it up...
Queen Wasp (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+identify+a+queen+wasp)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 11:03:19 PM
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 11:03:19 PM
Quote from: Le Celticant on May 14, 2017, 10:29:30 PMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 09:40:01 PMQuote from: Evanus on May 14, 2017, 04:15:48 PMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 04:11:39 PMThe wasp.Quote from: Predaker on May 14, 2017, 03:57:06 PMQuote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:42:56 AM
COVENANT denies the existence of a ... Queen
No it doesn't. Covenant actually explains why queens exist.
Really? How so?
Must be an alien wasp (yeah, the odds of that happening is zero) because Earth wasps do not have Queens... Look it up...
Queen Wasp (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+identify+a+queen+wasp)
My bad...I read that same Wikipedia entry and missed that completely... Odd... I seriously will have to watch the movie again... That part completely eluded me... 🤔
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: klesk4ever on May 15, 2017, 12:19:49 AM
Post by: klesk4ever on May 15, 2017, 12:19:49 AM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 03:54:27 AMQuote from: Xenomrph on May 14, 2017, 03:46:31 AMQuote from: klesk4ever on May 13, 2017, 11:51:50 PMI've been saying this for a good while now.
Do we really have to push our favorite version of cannon down each others throat to feel better about the whole thing?
Simply make your own version of cannon that suits.
Canon is not an individual choice, it is what has been established as OFFICIAL by the movies... So, no fan chooses what is canonical or not, that is just a ridiculous proposition... The movies set the canon, not the fans...
Nope. It is up to the owner of the franchise to establish a OFFICIAL canon. There is no system in place where movies, comics or novels should have greater weight at establishing OFFICIAL canon, there is no system where certain director or writer has the power to establish OFFICIAL canon...
In short since Fox didn't establish official canon Aliens, AvP and Predators do not have official canon/canons.
And while fans cannot establish official canons, they sure as heck can establish their own canons to their liking.
Xenopedia has established it's own system for establishing what is cannon and what is not, and it had established Xenopedia canon.
I had established my own system for establishing what is canon and what is not and I had established klesk canon.
You may establish your own system for what is canon, and you can establish YutaniDitch canon.
Trying to argue which one of those canons is "right"... makes no sense at all.
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 14, 2017, 06:39:35 AM
The design PROVE they are from the same race, so your first claim has been debunked by yourself.
Engineer ship is a great example. Is the ship on LV-426 same ship as Juggernaut?
They could be the same ships. The ship on LV-426 is a bit different, but that could be explained by different teams making models/CGI. After all Aliens in Alien, Aliens, AvP are a bit different, yet they are all Aliens.They are different because different studios made them.
They could also be different ships. Even if they did look 100% the same, well 6 battleships of the same class also look the same. So they could be two different ships of the same class.
The design proves that they were built using the same technology. Using the same technology and blueprints whites, blacks and asians can built three different ships of the same class. They can built it at different times, at different places. And yet all three can also be built at the same place at the same time.
As for the age of the Space Jockey corpse, the temperature on that planet is freezing. Frozen corpses do not decompose. The age of the death is unknown.
To sum things up, it is possible that it is the same ship, and it is also possible they are different ships. Cannons in which those things are the same and cannons in which they are not the same are possible.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Corporal Hicks on May 15, 2017, 08:02:22 AM
Post by: Corporal Hicks on May 15, 2017, 08:02:22 AM
Quote from: klesk4ever on May 15, 2017, 12:19:49 AM
In short since Fox didn't establish official canon Aliens, AvP and Predators do not have official canon/canons.
They do. They just wont come out and say it publicly. As it stands (for the Alien series), Fox currently considers Prometheus, the Alien films, Alien: Isolation, the initial Titan trilogy, The Rage Wars, Aliens: Defiance, Aliens: Dead Orbit, Fire and Stone and Life and Death canon. Their view had been that anything going forward would be canon. How that stands with Covenant's apparent intention behind the origins of the Alien, I don't know.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Russ840 on May 15, 2017, 08:07:00 AM
Post by: Russ840 on May 15, 2017, 08:07:00 AM
Totally right Hicks.
I think everything is still intact for now. It will depend on what happens between Covenant and the original Alien.
I think everything is still intact for now. It will depend on what happens between Covenant and the original Alien.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: gantarat on May 15, 2017, 08:43:18 AM
Post by: gantarat on May 15, 2017, 08:43:18 AM
Quote from: Russ840 on May 15, 2017, 08:07:00 AM
Totally right Hicks.
I think everything is still intact for now. It will depend on what happens between Covenant and the original Alien.
Fox would not greenlit "Life and Death" if they don't know Covenant script right ?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Russ840 on May 15, 2017, 08:46:02 AM
Post by: Russ840 on May 15, 2017, 08:46:02 AM
Quote from: gantarat on May 15, 2017, 08:43:18 AMQuote from: Russ840 on May 15, 2017, 08:07:00 AM
Totally right Hicks.
I think everything is still intact for now. It will depend on what happens between Covenant and the original Alien.
Fox would not greenlit "Life and Death" if they don't know Covenant script right ?
Darkhorse work closley with Fox when producing these comics. They had to make changes to Fire and Stone due to the pre-production of what was Prometheus 2 and then became covenant.
I would say that Life and Death also had vetting as well.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenoscream on May 15, 2017, 09:37:18 AM
Post by: Xenoscream on May 15, 2017, 09:37:18 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 15, 2017, 08:02:22 AMQuote from: klesk4ever on May 15, 2017, 12:19:49 AM
In short since Fox didn't establish official canon Aliens, AvP and Predators do not have official canon/canons.
They do. They just wont come out and say it publicly. As it stands (for the Alien series), Fox currently considers Prometheus, the Alien films, Alien: Isolation, the initial Titan trilogy, The Rage Wars, Aliens: Defiance, Aliens: Dead Orbit, Fire and Stone and Life and Death canon. Their view had been that anything going forward would be canon. How that stands with Covenant's apparent intention behind the origins of the Alien, I don't know.
When did they say isolation was canon - not that I have a problem with that but I distinctly remember that creative assembly didn't tout that... and what about CM? Old Randy never shut up about the canon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Corporal Hicks on May 15, 2017, 09:49:35 AM
Post by: Corporal Hicks on May 15, 2017, 09:49:35 AM
Nothing public or that I can really quote with any certainty to dispel doubt. However, the timeline in the WY Report is intended to be canon and it's listed in there. Any new stories after the release of that book were intended to be canon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: EJA on May 15, 2017, 09:59:15 AM
Post by: EJA on May 15, 2017, 09:59:15 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 15, 2017, 08:02:22 AMQuote from: klesk4ever on May 15, 2017, 12:19:49 AM
In short since Fox didn't establish official canon Aliens, AvP and Predators do not have official canon/canons.
They do. They just wont come out and say it publicly. As it stands (for the Alien series), Fox currently considers Prometheus, the Alien films, Alien: Isolation, the initial Titan trilogy, The Rage Wars, Aliens: Defiance, Aliens: Dead Orbit, Fire and Stone and Life and Death canon. Their view had been that anything going forward would be canon. How that stands with Covenant's apparent intention behind the origins of the Alien, I don't know.
Covenant has rendered them all non-canon, folks. The new movie simply doesn't fit at all with everything else.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: gantarat on May 15, 2017, 10:32:39 AM
Post by: gantarat on May 15, 2017, 10:32:39 AM
Quote from: EJA on May 15, 2017, 09:59:15 AMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on May 15, 2017, 08:02:22 AMQuote from: klesk4ever on May 15, 2017, 12:19:49 AM
In short since Fox didn't establish official canon Aliens, AvP and Predators do not have official canon/canons.
They do. They just wont come out and say it publicly. As it stands (for the Alien series), Fox currently considers Prometheus, the Alien films, Alien: Isolation, the initial Titan trilogy, The Rage Wars, Aliens: Defiance, Aliens: Dead Orbit, Fire and Stone and Life and Death canon. Their view had been that anything going forward would be canon. How that stands with Covenant's apparent intention behind the origins of the Alien, I don't know.
M
Covenant has rendered them all non-canon, folks. The new movie simply doesn't fit at all with everything else.
Maybe Covenant Novelization and Prequel novel hint something ?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Corporal Hicks on May 15, 2017, 10:44:32 AM
Post by: Corporal Hicks on May 15, 2017, 10:44:32 AM
Hopefully we'll get some explanations from them.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 15, 2017, 11:06:53 AM
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 15, 2017, 11:06:53 AM
The movies are the original source, hence why they are the canon... Otherwise and maybe because of that self-inflicted inconsistency, we have a complete mess coming out of COVENANT... The lore, canon is supposed to give consistency, coherence and logical chronology and causality of events, but instead we have comics contradicting movies, games contradicting movies and vice versa, we have prequels that feel and actually are more like retcons, etc... Canon is supposed to exist to make movies coherent, be it sequels and/or prequels... Without that, we get this mess, where comics are considered canon even though they are never addressed in movies nor do the directors or even writers take them into any consideration, we have games that, for instance, resurrect dead characters that are still non canon because there are no movies still that address it.. That misconception of what canon is supposed to be is why we have fans saying with a straight face that each fan creates his own canon... Canon, by definition, is a guidebook you can only add to and not change... Movies are the source material, so they are the canon... The rest are mere creative derivations that create interesting stories but that ultimately are not taken into consideration in the movie making... ALIEN started it, ALIENS added to it, PREADATOR, PREDATOR 2 ( where we saw a Xeno skull, also undermining David as ultimate Xeno creator), and PREDATORS directly addresses Dutch and his team's encounter with the Predator, so it is also part of the canon... AVP's only contact point with the ALIEN movies, besides the Xenos, of course, is Lance Henriksen's Charles Bishop Weyland, and that alone is not enough to make it part of the canon, but it also does not say it is not... The contact point with it is so tenuous and vague, with this Weyland being perfectly able to be Peter Weyland's ancestor... COVENANT changes way too much to not directly conflict with ALIEN, ALIENS, PREDATOR 2, etc... And even though it is possible for Ridley to be able to tie these prequels to the original ALIEN quatrilogy, minus AVP and PREDATOR 2, which FOX itself will have to address eventually, it still begs to wonder what will Ridley do to tie these movies with ALIEN... He already said these are prequels to ALIEN,so he is not aiming to retcon it...even though publicly stating that David, and not the Engineers, created the Xenos, is a retcon to me...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: EJA on May 15, 2017, 11:16:08 AM
Post by: EJA on May 15, 2017, 11:16:08 AM
Quote from: gantarat on May 15, 2017, 10:32:39 AMQuote from: EJA on May 15, 2017, 09:59:15 AMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on May 15, 2017, 08:02:22 AMQuote from: klesk4ever on May 15, 2017, 12:19:49 AM
In short since Fox didn't establish official canon Aliens, AvP and Predators do not have official canon/canons.
They do. They just wont come out and say it publicly. As it stands (for the Alien series), Fox currently considers Prometheus, the Alien films, Alien: Isolation, the initial Titan trilogy, The Rage Wars, Aliens: Defiance, Aliens: Dead Orbit, Fire and Stone and Life and Death canon. Their view had been that anything going forward would be canon. How that stands with Covenant's apparent intention behind the origins of the Alien, I don't know.
M
Covenant has rendered them all non-canon, folks. The new movie simply doesn't fit at all with everything else.
Maybe Covenant Novelization and Prequel novel hint something ?
I wouldn't count on it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: HABIT on May 15, 2017, 02:34:14 PM
Post by: HABIT on May 15, 2017, 02:34:14 PM
Quote from: klesk4ever on May 13, 2017, 11:51:50 PMQuote from: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:34:01 PMQuote from: Ingwar on May 13, 2017, 11:31:20 PM
Covenant doesn't have to confirm that. AvP movies are cross-overs. They never been part of canon.
According to who? Both the AvP films and Prometheus/Covenant are produced by 20th Century Fox - and they have never (as far as I am aware) confirmed what is canon or not. The default position until Covenant was that they were canon due to be produced by the same company. Covenant confirms they are not though.
Let's not forget Alien Colonial Marines were cannon for a certain time.
Fox didn't make a official canon, AvP is not officially a crossover.
Alien, AvP and Predator media cannot make a coherent cannon without butchering the whole thing with time travel and extremely improbable scenarios.
It is possible to create multiple possible cannons however in every one of those some content has to be rejected.
Do we really have to push our favorite version of cannon down each others throat to feel better about the whole thing?
Simply make your own version of cannon that suits.
My version of cannon has Prometheus, A.C. Alien, Alien Isolation, Aliens and Alien 3 (+ some other content) as Alien cannon. It is elegant, it has no holes, and I had also ejected Alien Resurrection from it and placed it into "that shitty alien movie" universe.
And at the same time I had made my own AvP cannon that includes all Predator movies, all AvP movies (and 2 games) and some Alien movies.
Mate, it's 'canon' not 'cannon'.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: klesk4ever on May 15, 2017, 03:20:43 PM
Post by: klesk4ever on May 15, 2017, 03:20:43 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 15, 2017, 08:02:22 AMQuote from: klesk4ever on May 15, 2017, 12:19:49 AMThey do. They just wont come out and say it publicly.
In short since Fox didn't establish official canon Aliens, AvP and Predators do not have official canon/canons.
So there is a official Fox alien canon, however if both of us argue about something being canon or not we can't use it because... they never published it?
Quote from: Xeneus on May 15, 2017, 02:34:14 PM
Mate, it's 'canon' not 'cannon'.
English is not my first language I had originally learned it as "cannon", I know it is "canon" however often I start writing it as "cannon".
Sorry about that.
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 15, 2017, 11:06:53 AM
The movies are the original source, hence why they are the canon... Otherwise and maybe because of that self-inflicted inconsistency, we have a complete mess coming out of COVENANT... The lore, canon is supposed to give consistency, coherence and logical chronology and causality of events, but instead we have comics contradicting movies, games contradicting movies and vice versa, we have prequels that feel and actually are more like retcons, etc... Canon is supposed to exist to make movies coherent, be it sequels and/or prequels... Without that, we get this mess, where comics are considered canon even though they are never addressed in movies nor do the directors or even writers take them into any consideration, we have games that, for instance, resurrect dead characters that are still non canon because there are no movies still that address it.. That misconception of what canon is supposed to be is why we have fans saying with a straight face that each fan creates his own canon... Canon, by definition, is a guidebook you can only add to and not change... Movies are the source material, so they are the canon... The rest are mere creative derivations that create interesting stories but that ultimately are not taken into consideration in the movie making... ALIEN started it, ALIENS added to it, PREADATOR, PREDATOR 2 ( where we saw a Xeno skull, also undermining David as ultimate Xeno creator), and PREDATORS directly addresses Dutch and his team's encounter with the Predator, so it is also part of the canon... AVP's only contact point with the ALIEN movies, besides the Xenos, of course, is Lance Henriksen's Charles Bishop Weyland, and that alone is not enough to make it part of the canon, but it also does not say it is not... The contact point with it is so tenuous and vague, with this Weyland being perfectly able to be Peter Weyland's ancestor... COVENANT changes way too much to not directly conflict with ALIEN, ALIENS, PREDATOR 2, etc... And even though it is possible for Ridley to be able to tie these prequels to the original ALIEN quatrilogy, minus AVP and PREDATOR 2, which FOX itself will have to address eventually, it still begs to wonder what will Ridley do to tie these movies with ALIEN... He already said these are prequels to ALIEN,so he is not aiming to retcon it...even though publicly stating that David, and not the Engineers, created the Xenos, is a retcon to me...
Canon is what the owner of franchise establishes as canon. We have this mess because Fox doesn't maintain official list of canon material. Or if it does it doesn't publish it.
And we have a bunch of arguing not because fans create their own canons to their linking (some fans want to create a coherent canon, while some are willing to butcher it to include as much content as possible, and some are willing to butcher it to include their own favorite eg. comic) but because some fans feel a great need to push their own version as official canon and push it down other fan's throat.
A.C. still hasn't retconed Alien, Aliens... because there will be more movies that lead into Alien, and the creature in question is proto-morph (xenomorph prototype). However it is still possible that Ridley will retcon the shit out of everything behind Alien.
My canon is Prometheus, Covenant, ... , Alien, A. Isolation, Aliens, Alien 3 (none-butchered version, but dog was impregnated because I like it that way better). There is also some content that I didn't mentioned (such as short Covenant prequel on youtube) to make this list short.
You may notice that I had added Alien Isolation, and there is no Alien Resurrection on my list. This is because I consider Isolation to fit nicely inside the canon, and I also consider it to be a material of great quality. While I consider Alien Resurrection to be an utter piece of shit (although it is a movie) that would ruin my whole experience.
I do not push my version of canon down anybody throat. It is mine, made for my pleasure. I like it. Even if Fox releases official canon I may keep mine because I like it more.
At the same time if some other fan had made his own canon that includes AvP / Predator movies, comics etc. Either by not including some content, or by butchering the whole thing with some very improbable explanations (eg. time travel) I have no problem with that as longs as the fan is not trying to push his version of the canon down other people throats as official canon.
Heck sometimes I help other fans to create more believable explanations that would make their versions of the cannon more coherent.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 15, 2017, 05:13:25 PM
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 15, 2017, 05:13:25 PM
Quote from: klesk4ever on May 15, 2017, 03:20:43 PMQuote from: Corporal Hicks on May 15, 2017, 08:02:22 AMQuote from: klesk4ever on May 15, 2017, 12:19:49 AMThey do. They just wont come out and say it publicly.
In short since Fox didn't establish official canon Aliens, AvP and Predators do not have official canon/canons.
So there is a official Fox alien canon, however if both of us argue about something being canon or not we can't use it because... they never published it?Quote from: Xeneus on May 15, 2017, 02:34:14 PM
Mate, it's 'canon' not 'cannon'.
English is not my first language I had originally learned it as "cannon", I know it is "canon" however often I start writing it as "cannon".
Sorry about that.Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 15, 2017, 11:06:53 AM
The movies are the original source, hence why they are the canon... Otherwise and maybe because of that self-inflicted inconsistency, we have a complete mess coming out of COVENANT... The lore, canon is supposed to give consistency, coherence and logical chronology and causality of events, but instead we have comics contradicting movies, games contradicting movies and vice versa, we have prequels that feel and actually are more like retcons, etc... Canon is supposed to exist to make movies coherent, be it sequels and/or prequels... Without that, we get this mess, where comics are considered canon even though they are never addressed in movies nor do the directors or even writers take them into any consideration, we have games that, for instance, resurrect dead characters that are still non canon because there are no movies still that address it.. That misconception of what canon is supposed to be is why we have fans saying with a straight face that each fan creates his own canon... Canon, by definition, is a guidebook you can only add to and not change... Movies are the source material, so they are the canon... The rest are mere creative derivations that create interesting stories but that ultimately are not taken into consideration in the movie making... ALIEN started it, ALIENS added to it, PREADATOR, PREDATOR 2 ( where we saw a Xeno skull, also undermining David as ultimate Xeno creator), and PREDATORS directly addresses Dutch and his team's encounter with the Predator, so it is also part of the canon... AVP's only contact point with the ALIEN movies, besides the Xenos, of course, is Lance Henriksen's Charles Bishop Weyland, and that alone is not enough to make it part of the canon, but it also does not say it is not... The contact point with it is so tenuous and vague, with this Weyland being perfectly able to be Peter Weyland's ancestor... COVENANT changes way too much to not directly conflict with ALIEN, ALIENS, PREDATOR 2, etc... And even though it is possible for Ridley to be able to tie these prequels to the original ALIEN quatrilogy, minus AVP and PREDATOR 2, which FOX itself will have to address eventually, it still begs to wonder what will Ridley do to tie these movies with ALIEN... He already said these are prequels to ALIEN,so he is not aiming to retcon it...even though publicly stating that David, and not the Engineers, created the Xenos, is a retcon to me...
Canon is what the owner of franchise establishes as canon. We have this mess because Fox doesn't maintain official list of canon material. Or if it does it doesn't publish it.
And we have a bunch of arguing not because fans create their own canons to their linking (some fans want to create a coherent canon, while some are willing to butcher it to include as much content as possible, and some are willing to butcher it to include their own favorite eg. comic) but because some fans feel a great need to push their own version as official canon and push it down other fan's throat.
A.C. still hasn't retconed Alien, Aliens... because there will be more movies that lead into Alien, and the creature in question is proto-morph (xenomorph prototype). However it is still possible that Ridley will retcon the shit out of everything behind Alien.
My canon is Prometheus, Covenant, ... , Alien, A. Isolation, Aliens, Alien 3 (none-butchered version, but dog was impregnated because I like it that way better). There is also some content that I didn't mentioned (such as short Covenant prequel on youtube) to make this list short.
You may notice that I had added Alien Isolation, and there is no Alien Resurrection on my list. This is because I consider Isolation to fit nicely inside the canon, and I also consider it to be a material of great quality. While I consider Alien Resurrection to be an utter piece of shit (although it is a movie) that would ruin my whole experience.
I do not push my version of canon down anybody throat. It is mine, made for my pleasure. I like it. Even if Fox releases official canon I may keep mine because I like it more.
At the same time if some other fan had made his own canon that includes AvP / Predator movies, comics etc. Either by not including some content, or by butchering the whole thing with some very improbable explanations (eg. time travel) I have no problem with that as longs as the fan is not trying to push his version of the canon down other people throats as official canon.
Heck sometimes I help other fans to create more believable explanations that would make their versions of the cannon more coherent.
Lazy creative abortions like retcons and remakes mean nothing to me... ALIEN COVENANT making a man-made android behind the creation of the Xenomorph is lazy writing at best, and intellectually offensive at worst... The Xeno had his underlying human-like skull because of the Engineers, not because of some farfetched insemination of wasp DNA mixed with the deus ex machina black goo (still find it a very slow, inconsistent weapon to be used... A chemical weapon would be far more efficient and far less likely to backfire like it did to the Engineers on LV-223...
But going back to the topic at hand, yes, there is an awful lot of confusion as to what truly makes the canonical Alien saga... I believe it is the movies and so far, none of the movies have addressed nor expanded any content present in the games, comics, novelizations, etc... That is why I do not consider any other media besides the movies to be canonical, for the simple reason that their content has never been addressed nor confirmed in the movies that constitute the fundamental core of the Alien saga... I understand that fans want to consider what they liked best to be part of canon, but that is not what canon is and is supposed to be as I have mentioned in my previous post...
Also, David creating the Xenos, unless Ridley steps back and actually states that he did not create them but just recreated, conflicts directly with what the Nostromo found on the Derelict... I think it was an utter mistake to dismiss Prometheus like that, to do an 180 on where the story was going, and ktherefor missing a golden opportunity to make the sequel better... The story was not perfect, but it had a lot of potential, which Ridley gave up on just to focus on the most unbelievable android I have ever seen onscreen... A crying android, a psychopathic android, a grinning, sarcastic android, is not an android... Feelings like rage, anger, are based on emotion, something unprogrammable, as emotions are often triggered by hormonal unbalances... I have always despised the ways androids are portrayed onscreen... Androids do not feel rage and certainly Weyland did not program David to do self thinking... This is why David, which I considered the worst part of PROMETHEUS, is even worse in COVENANT... Ridley just ought to do what he set out to do with PROMETHEUS and not retreat 'cause of bad reviews... An artist should stand for his creation regardless...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: newbeing on May 15, 2017, 05:22:55 PM
Post by: newbeing on May 15, 2017, 05:22:55 PM
I stopped caring about canon for this series because it's obvious Fox never bothered to care. All they care about is getting your butt in the theater. Any careful or respectful approach to this series is meaningless to them. Remember when Aliens: Colonial Marines was going to be canon?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 15, 2017, 05:53:09 PM
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 15, 2017, 05:53:09 PM
Quote from: newbeing on May 15, 2017, 05:22:55 PM
I stopped caring about canon for this series because it's obvious Fox never bothered to care. All they care about is getting your butt in the theater. Any careful or respectful approach to this series is meaningless to them. Remember when Aliens: Colonial Marines was going to be canon?
The hilarious thing is that this ALIEN franchise doesn't not even make that much money for FOX, and if they are going to make dull, predictable movies, just as money grabbers, they ought to find it somewhere else... Sacrificing the story of the first movie to give instead a generic slasher, Dr Moreau cliched villain, now conveniently the creator of the title creature, shows how little they respect their very skeletal cash cow... It is no coincidence they are also poking a new PREDATOR movie... Hard to make good movies when they are doing it for the money and not for the art... No risk, no imagination, no guts...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: klesk4ever on May 15, 2017, 08:37:53 PM
Post by: klesk4ever on May 15, 2017, 08:37:53 PM
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 15, 2017, 11:06:53 AM
Lazy creative abortions like retcons and remakes mean nothing to me... ALIEN COVENANT making a man-made android behind the creation of the Xenomorph is lazy writing at best, and intellectually offensive at worst... The Xeno had his underlying human-like skull because of the Engineers, not because of some farfetched insemination of wasp DNA mixed with the deus ex machina black goo (still find it a very slow, inconsistent weapon to be used... A chemical weapon would be far more efficient and far less likely to backfire like it did to the Engineers on LV-223...
But going back to the topic at hand, yes, there is an awful lot of confusion as to what truly makes the canonical Alien saga... I believe it is the movies and so far, none of the movies have addressed nor expanded any content present in the games, comics, novelizations, etc... That is why I do not consider any other media besides the movies to be canonical, for the simple reason that their content has never been addressed nor confirmed in the movies that constitute the fundamental core of the Alien saga... I understand that fans want to consider what they liked best to be part of canon, but that is not what canon is and is supposed to be as I have mentioned in my previous post...
Also, David creating the Xenos, unless Ridley steps back and actually states that he did not create them but just recreated, conflicts directly with what the Nostromo found on the Derelict... I think it was an utter mistake to dismiss Prometheus like that, to do an 180 on where the story was going, and ktherefor missing a golden opportunity to make the sequel better... The story was not perfect, but it had a lot of potential, which Ridley gave up on just to focus on the most unbelievable android I have ever seen onscreen... A crying android, a psychopathic android, a grinning, sarcastic android, is not an android... Feelings like rage, anger, are based on emotion, something unprogrammable, as emotions are often triggered by hormonal unbalances... I have always despised the ways androids are portrayed onscreen... Androids do not feel rage and certainly Weyland did not program David to do self thinking... This is why David, which I considered the worst part of PROMETHEUS, is even worse in COVENANT... Ridley just ought to do what he set out to do with PROMETHEUS and not retreat 'cause of bad reviews... An artist should stand for his creation regardless...
I fully agree with almost everything you had said.
Prometheus was... well it wasn't a good movie. It had great visuals, however it was incoherent, it had bad acting, bad editing etc. and the zombie Fifield scene? WTF?
However it did set the stage for what could be a EPIC saga that leads to the Alien.
At this point all we do have is... potential, and feeling that this potential is most likely going to be wasted.
If the next movie doesn't give some deeper story, and some explanations, I'm putting the whole prequels thing in a trash bin, and Scott is a moron.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: PsyKore on May 15, 2017, 10:51:02 PM
Post by: PsyKore on May 15, 2017, 10:51:02 PM
Quote from: newbeing on May 15, 2017, 05:22:55 PM
I stopped caring about canon for this series because it's obvious Fox never bothered to care. All they care about is getting your butt in the theater. Any careful or respectful approach to this series is meaningless to them. Remember when Aliens: Colonial Marines was going to be canon?
They do care, but Fox can't help if people handling their property like Randy Pitchford are lying bastards.
Quote from: YutaniDitch on May 15, 2017, 05:13:25 PM
just to focus on the most unbelievable android I have ever seen onscreen... A crying android, a psychopathic android, a grinning, sarcastic android, is not an android... Feelings like rage, anger, are based on emotion, something unprogrammable, as emotions are often triggered by hormonal unbalances... I have always despised the ways androids are portrayed onscreen... Androids do not feel rage and certainly Weyland did not program David to do self thinking... This is why David, which I considered the worst part of PROMETHEUS, is even worse in COVENANT...
Ridley's interest in androids and their underlying conflictions goes back to Blade Runner and of course Ash in Alien - I feel David in Covenant touches on similar notions.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 16, 2017, 04:36:39 PM
Post by: YutaniDitch on May 16, 2017, 04:36:39 PM
Quote from: PsyKore on May 15, 2017, 10:51:02 PM
Ridley's interest in androids and their underlying conflictions goes back to Blade Runner and of course Ash in Alien - I feel David in Covenant touches on similar notions.
Yes, I have been thinking a lot about Replicants and Ash, and how ridiculously unscientific they are, androids feeling emotions when they are not supposed to and obviously not programmed to... The last thing anyone would want is to have a construct that is supposed to be logical and unemotional in his actions, to have them have them and virtually or potentially jeopardize their raison d'être... even though Rutger Hauer's and the other Replicants only wanted to outlive their limited lifespan, if my memory does not fail me... I have not seen BLADE RUNNER for a long while... So, one thing is the natural instinct of self-preservation which is an emotional, though instinctive, response, implying self-awareness... Of course, FEAR of death is an emotion, and even though it is a fascinating theme, having androids having it and acting on it, being illogical, too humanly flawed, and actually negating his entire purpose which was to help people, not just Weyland, is utterly preposterous for the simple truth that emotions cannot be programmed in, they are natural hormonal responses to situations that affect our brains... Why would Weyland create an emotional robot...? Why would he allow it AT ALL...? Curiosity...? He stated David had no soul, implying that he was a being of pure logic and would not have neither a good soul nor a dark one... He could be programmed to MIMICK emotions, but actually FEELING them...!? This is why the sarcasm, the grinning, the psychopathic genocidal tendencies, etc, are actually too human to be believable on an android... With Ash, they tried as best as they could to hide him being an android to deceive the audience, hence why he acted, talked and even scolded Ripley like a human, also grinning, being sarcastic when Ripley asked what was the motion sensor tracker keyed on... But that was to trick the audience... This is very different... This is way off programming, and even if he was writing his own programming now, which would have to be enabled from the get go in the first place, which is highly doubtful, there is no way he would go Skynet and go from servicing mankind to destroying it just because somehow he illogically became obsessed about creation, like a zealot or a fanatic, all terms that clearly we do not associate with android, computer behavior...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: irn on May 16, 2017, 04:59:57 PM
Post by: irn on May 16, 2017, 04:59:57 PM
Quote from: windebieste on May 14, 2017, 06:09:29 AM
For all we know, the Engineers did create the Alien 2000 years ago and David followed in their footsteps. Hell, he may have even discovered their technology for doing so by living in the Engineer city for 10 years. The derelict may have been on Acheron as long as we have been led to believe from the beginning.
This. David may well have been deliberately retreading a scientific route that the Space Jockeys went down a long time ago.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Dec 29, 2018, 07:04:33 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Dec 29, 2018, 07:04:33 PM
Quote from: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:29:48 PM
With Covenant taking place in 2104, and David having created the first Xeno via the facehugger that attacked Oram, I guess Covenant confirms once and for all that AvP and AvPR are not canon. AvP taking place in 2004 and AvPR not long after that. Even in AvP they reference 1904 in the film as being a date that the Alien Queen in that film was still in deep freeze.
Good.
Except David did NOT create the first ever Xenomorphs, the movie itself doesn't even make that statement but leaves it up to interpretation, and the official novelization for Covenant even has David explaining that he did in fact NOT create these monsters but the Engineers did, and David was merely using what the Engineers had already created to produce his own variants of the Aliens. Furthermore, the home video release of Prometheus states in Peter Weyland's log "Quite Eye" that the company already detected the distress signal from the crashed Derelict ship on LV-426 before the events of Prometheus/Covenant, and not to forget that Predator 2, Alien vs. Predator, Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem, Predators, and the most recent The Predator (which came out after Covenant and further cements the crossover between the films with its various references to AVP and Alien) clearly disproves the notion of David having created the Aliens. Not to mention the myriad of expanded universe material such as AVP: Evolution and the comic books Fire & Stone and Life & Death. Bottom line, David did not create the Aliens and AVP is still canonical. Period.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: proto leech on Dec 29, 2018, 07:17:37 PM
Post by: proto leech on Dec 29, 2018, 07:17:37 PM
avp movies were never canon in alien. period
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Dec 29, 2018, 08:24:15 PM
Post by: SM on Dec 29, 2018, 08:24:15 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Dec 29, 2018, 07:04:33 PMQuote from: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:29:48 PM
With Covenant taking place in 2104, and David having created the first Xeno via the facehugger that attacked Oram, I guess Covenant confirms once and for all that AvP and AvPR are not canon. AvP taking place in 2004 and AvPR not long after that. Even in AvP they reference 1904 in the film as being a date that the Alien Queen in that film was still in deep freeze.
Good.
Except David did NOT create the first ever Xenomorphs, the movie itself doesn't even make that statement but leaves it up to interpretation, and the official novelization for Covenant even has David explaining that he did in fact NOT create these monsters but the Engineers did, and David was merely using what the Engineers had already created to produce his own variants of the Aliens. Furthermore, the home video release of Prometheus states in Peter Weyland's log "Quite Eye" that the company already detected the distress signal from the crashed Derelict ship on LV-426 before the events of Prometheus/Covenant, and not to forget that Predator 2, Alien vs. Predator, Aliens vs. Predator: Requiem, Predators, and the most recent The Predator (which came out after Covenant and further cements the crossover between the films with its various references to AVP and Alien) clearly disproves the notion of David having created the Aliens. Not to mention the myriad of expanded universe material such as AVP: Evolution and the comic books Fire & Stone and Life & Death. Bottom line, David did not create the Aliens and AVP is still canonical. Period.
AvP hasn't been canon for some time - Ridley deliberately ignored it on Prometheus - and what ends up on film is what matters to the film division. If the film contradicts what came out on some Blu-Ray extra, then the film is what matters.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 29, 2018, 09:32:47 PM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 29, 2018, 09:32:47 PM
As the iphone analogy shows, the prequel films never said Xenomorphs can only have one creator. The bootleggers released identical looking iphones before Apple.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Dec 29, 2018, 09:36:21 PM
Post by: SM on Dec 29, 2018, 09:36:21 PM
...
what?
what?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Dec 29, 2018, 10:46:55 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Dec 29, 2018, 10:46:55 PM
*Sigh*.. not that iphone analogy again.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Dec 29, 2018, 10:49:12 PM
Post by: Huggs on Dec 29, 2018, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: SM on Dec 29, 2018, 09:36:21 PM
...
what?
I think David is supposed to be selling knockoff Apple products.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Dec 29, 2018, 10:54:52 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Dec 29, 2018, 10:54:52 PM
@yhe1 - I don't think David is sending his xenomorph creation schematics out for bids to Chinese manufacturing companies like the first generation iPhone, so that won't be a problem.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Dec 29, 2018, 10:58:29 PM
Post by: Huggs on Dec 29, 2018, 10:58:29 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 29, 2018, 10:54:52 PM
@yhe1 - I don't think David is sending his xenomorph creation schematics out for bids to Chinese manufacturing companies like the first generation iPhone, so that won't be a problem.
Now there's an interesting angle. What if the Russians intercepted the transmission, and that somehow Segway's us into Gibson's Alien 3?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Dec 29, 2018, 11:20:10 PM
Post by: SM on Dec 29, 2018, 11:20:10 PM
(https://segway-tours-worldwide.com/wp-content/uploads/alien-invasion-on-segway-in-bogota-columbia-.-take-a-segway-tour-with-these-guys-or-other-not-so-out.jpg)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Dec 29, 2018, 11:25:36 PM
Post by: Huggs on Dec 29, 2018, 11:25:36 PM
Quote from: SM on Dec 29, 2018, 11:20:10 PM
(https://segway-tours-worldwide.com/wp-content/uploads/alien-invasion-on-segway-in-bogota-columbia-.-take-a-segway-tour-with-these-guys-or-other-not-so-out.jpg)
But is it canon?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 12:15:58 AM
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 12:15:58 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Dec 29, 2018, 09:32:47 PMBy your analogy, Alien was actually made by the cast and crew of the 1958 film It! The Terror From Beyond Space.
As the iphone analogy shows, the prequel films never said Xenomorphs can only have one creator. The bootleggers released identical looking iphones before Apple.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 12:25:39 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 12:25:39 AM
Quote from: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 12:15:58 AMQuote from: yhe1 on Dec 29, 2018, 09:32:47 PMBy your analogy, Alien was actually made by the cast and crew of the 1958 film It! The Terror From Beyond Space.
As the iphone analogy shows, the prequel films never said Xenomorphs can only have one creator. The bootleggers released identical looking iphones before Apple.
No, because Xenomorphs are a group and you guys only cared about looks. Thats why the iphone analogy is perfect.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 12:31:05 AM
Post by: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 12:31:05 AM
:D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 12:34:09 AM
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 12:34:09 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 12:25:39 AMThat makes no sense as a distinction
No, because Xenomorphs are a group
Quoteand you guys only cared about looks.That's called a strawman.
QuoteThats why the iphone analogy is perfect.Still not.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Vermillion on Dec 30, 2018, 12:43:31 AM
Post by: Vermillion on Dec 30, 2018, 12:43:31 AM
Weyland Yutani.
Canon.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/xT9DPhONuz1SpCONiM/giphy.gif?cid=4bf119fc5c28149b4a554935415c8f49)
Canon.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/xT9DPhONuz1SpCONiM/giphy.gif?cid=4bf119fc5c28149b4a554935415c8f49)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 03:41:29 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 03:41:29 AM
Quote
Still not.
I got an iphone before Apple's official release date so I know my iphone isn't made by Apple.
Pussyface got an Xenomorph skull decades before David so I know his xenomorph isn't made by David.
The analogy couldn't be more perfect.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 03:52:40 AM
Post by: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 03:52:40 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 03:41:29 AMQuotePussyface got an Xenomorph skull decades before David so I know his xenomorph isn't made by David.
Still not.
It's cool, haven't you heard? We've got time travel now.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 04:01:42 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 04:01:42 AM
I'm drunk now and the iPhone analogy still doesn't make sense. Maybe if we switch to a Twinkie analogy?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Vermillion on Dec 30, 2018, 04:03:04 AM
Post by: Vermillion on Dec 30, 2018, 04:03:04 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 04:01:42 AMReferencing Die Hard?
I'm drunk now and the iPhone analogy still doesn't make sense. Maybe if we switch to a Twinkie analogy?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Dec 30, 2018, 04:08:55 AM
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Dec 30, 2018, 04:08:55 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 04:01:42 AM
I'm drunk now and the iPhone analogy still doesn't make sense. Maybe if we switch to a Twinkie analogy?
How about a Cinnabon analogy? Or a Jello analogy?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 04:10:19 AM
Post by: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 04:10:19 AM
Quote from: Vermillion on Dec 30, 2018, 04:03:04 AMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 04:01:42 AMReferencing Die Hard?
I'm drunk now and the iPhone analogy still doesn't make sense. Maybe if we switch to a Twinkie analogy?
Yella dye #5
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 04:13:42 AM
Post by: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 04:13:42 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 03:41:29 AMQuote
Still not.
I got an iphone before Apple's official release date so I know my iphone isn't made by Apple.
Pussyface got an Xenomorph skull decades before David so I know his xenomorph isn't made by David.
The analogy couldn't be more perfect.
If it's not made by Apple then it's not an Iphone- it's a forgery.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Vermillion on Dec 30, 2018, 04:14:18 AM
Post by: Vermillion on Dec 30, 2018, 04:14:18 AM
Quote from: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 04:10:19 AMQuote from: Vermillion on Dec 30, 2018, 04:03:04 AMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 04:01:42 AMReferencing Die Hard?
I'm drunk now and the iPhone analogy still doesn't make sense. Maybe if we switch to a Twinkie analogy?
Yella dye #5
Ma'man.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/mHEes6Quf8XK0/giphy.gif?cid=4bf119fc5c2845f34275724b4d85cfd8)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 04:15:16 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 04:15:16 AM
Hey Huggsy!
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/rmPMxEajFu2ly/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c28460f787676556f47002e)
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/rmPMxEajFu2ly/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c28460f787676556f47002e)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 04:16:25 AM
Post by: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 04:16:25 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 04:13:42 AMQuote from: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 03:41:29 AMQuote
Still not.
I got an iphone before Apple's official release date so I know my iphone isn't made by Apple.
Pussyface got an Xenomorph skull decades before David so I know his xenomorph isn't made by David.
The analogy couldn't be more perfect.
If it's not made by Apple then it's not an Iphone- it's a forgery.
Darn Ifones.
If only there'd been some clue?
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 04:15:16 AM
Hey Huggsy!
https://media3.giphy.com/media/rmPMxEajFu2ly/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c28460f787676556f47002e
No throwing food in the clu...
Oh, hey, twinkie. :)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 04:20:47 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 04:20:47 AM
Quote
If it's not made by Apple then it's not an Iphone- it's a forgery.
Too bad somebody said they only cared about the look.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 04:26:04 AM
Post by: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 04:26:04 AM
eh?
Do you have a point?
Do you have a point?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 04:29:28 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 04:29:28 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 04:26:04 AM
Eh?
Keep on punching there, and being disingenuous, and misrepresenting.
Hey, you said a pointed head was out of the question for a xenomorph, and Pussyface's skull was not pointed.
So thanks for the perfect analogy.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 04:32:05 AM
Post by: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 04:32:05 AM
I edited my post.
And I'm guessing that's a 'no'?
And I'm guessing that's a 'no'?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 04:36:00 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 04:36:00 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 04:32:05 AM
I edited my post.
And I'm guessing that's a 'no'?
More like your chickens have come home to roost.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 04:36:35 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 04:36:35 AM
Woah. Wine.
Duhhhh Samsung Galaxy means David did not create the Xenomorph. Any genius can see that.
Duhhhh Samsung Galaxy means David did not create the Xenomorph. Any genius can see that.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 04:40:14 AM
Post by: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 04:40:14 AM
The Predators were fighting Blackberries in AvP
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 04:41:34 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 04:41:34 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 04:36:35 AM
Woah. Wine.
Duhhhh Samsung Galaxy means David did not create the Xenomorph. Any genius can see that.
David did create the xenomorph in his lab, just like Apple did create the iphones in their factories.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 04:46:59 AM
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 04:46:59 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 03:41:29 AMThen it's not an iPhone.
I got an iphone before Apple's official release date so I know my iphone isn't made by Apple.
QuotePussyface got an Xenomorph skull decades before David so I know his xenomorph isn't made by David.Predator films are irrelevant.
QuoteThe analogy couldn't be more perfect.It couldn't be more moronic if you tried.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 04:52:26 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 04:52:26 AM
Hence why I said the debate will never settle, but it does highlight the issue: "The prequel films never said xenomorphs can only have one creator"
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 04:53:37 AM
Post by: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 04:53:37 AM
Quote from: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 04:46:59 AMQuotePussyface got an Xenomorph skull decades before David so I know his xenomorph isn't made by David.Predator films are irrelevant.
No room for accidental canon?
Oh well, I doubt it was pussyface's anyway. He got his loin cloth handed to him by an aging cop.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 04:54:58 AM
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 04:54:58 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 04:52:26 AMThe prequels currently say it does have one creator, though. This might be revealed to not be the case, but right now Covenant itself isn't vague on the matter.
Hence why I said the debate will never settle, but it does highlight the issue: "The prequel films never said xenomorphs can only have one creator"
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 05:01:04 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 05:01:04 AM
But, but, the IPhones.... and the optional case. And text message fees.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 05:08:15 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 05:08:15 AM
Quote from: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 04:54:58 AMQuote from: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 04:52:26 AMThe prequels currently say it does have one creator, though. This might be revealed to not be the case, but right now Covenant itself isn't vague on the matter.
Hence why I said the debate will never settle, but it does highlight the issue: "The prequel films never said xenomorphs can only have one creator"
"At least one creator", not "only one creator"
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 05:09:18 AM
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 05:09:18 AM
It shows David explaining his creation process. One creator. No hint of another.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 05:16:39 AM
Post by: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 05:16:39 AM
The engineer in Prometheus was 2000 years old, and still seemed relatively intact. The jockey in Alien seemed darn near fossilized. David's accomplishments are being shoehorned into the franchise because Ridley wants to move it in a different direction. But hey, David was still smart enough to recreate a strain of the species. There's something to be said for that.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 05:40:11 AM
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 05:40:11 AM
The living Engineer was in stasis. The dead ones were all in various states of decay.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 05:43:15 AM
Post by: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 05:43:15 AM
Quote from: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 05:40:11 AM
The living Engineer was in stasis. The dead ones were all in various states of decay.
I meant the one with his head lopped off.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Baron Von Marlon on Dec 30, 2018, 05:59:38 AM
Post by: Baron Von Marlon on Dec 30, 2018, 05:59:38 AM
Quote from: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 05:43:15 AMQuote from: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 05:40:11 AM
The living Engineer was in stasis. The dead ones were all in various states of decay.
I meant the one with his head lopped off.
The head was in a sealed off room.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 06:12:31 AM
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 06:12:31 AM
And a sealed helmet. And they quickly got it into a sealed container before taking it out.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 07:02:24 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 07:02:24 AM
Quote from: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 05:09:18 AM
No hint of another.
So the prequel films never actually said Xenomorph can only have one creator.
So why this discussion? Xenomorphs existed before David, and Pussyface killed one of them. Later, David created xenomorphs on planet 4. These xenomorphs and the xenomorph pussyface killed don't even have to be the same type of creature, just look the same on the outside. There is no contradiction in any of this.
If the prequel films actually come out and said "Xenomorphs can only have one creator" or that "there was no xenomorph before David", then it would render the previous films non-canon. But they didn't do that, so technically they didn't render anything non-canon right?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 07:06:58 AM
Post by: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 07:06:58 AM
AvP was already non-canon to the Alien series before David created anything.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 07:14:02 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 07:14:02 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 07:06:58 AM
AvP was already non-canon to the Alien series before David created anything.
How? and I am talking about in universe contradictions.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 07:46:56 AM
Post by: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 07:46:56 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 07:02:24 AMThey don't say they do or might have more than one: they say David made them. Not "made some", just "made them".
So the prequel films never actually said Xenomorph can only have one creator.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 08:42:14 AM
Post by: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 08:42:14 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 07:14:02 AMQuote from: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 07:06:58 AM
AvP was already non-canon to the Alien series before David created anything.
How? and I am talking about in universe contradictions.
Weyland Corp was created by Peter Weyland - not Charles Bishop Weyland. Ridley deliberately ignored the Weyland of AvP.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Dec 30, 2018, 12:17:43 PM
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Dec 30, 2018, 12:17:43 PM
Quote from: Huggs on Dec 30, 2018, 04:16:25 AMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 30, 2018, 04:15:16 AM
Hey Huggsy!
https://media3.giphy.com/media/rmPMxEajFu2ly/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c28460f787676556f47002e
No throwing food in the clu...
Oh, hey, twinkie. :)
"Put that Twinkie down, now!"
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Vermillion on Dec 30, 2018, 03:26:48 PM
Post by: Vermillion on Dec 30, 2018, 03:26:48 PM
"Bag it"
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 09:33:22 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 09:33:22 AM
Quote from: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 07:46:56 AMQuote from: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 07:02:24 AMThey don't say they do or might have more than one: they say David made them. Not "made some", just "made them".
So the prequel films never actually said Xenomorph can only have one creator.
If I recall correctly, the line was only Oram's "You engineered these, David?" Was there anything else?
Quote from: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 08:42:14 AMQuote from: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 07:14:02 AMQuote from: SM on Dec 30, 2018, 07:06:58 AM
AvP was already non-canon to the Alien series before David created anything.
How? and I am talking about in universe contradictions.
Weyland Corp was created by Peter Weyland - not Charles Bishop Weyland. Ridley deliberately ignored the Weyland of AvP.
Although Ridley changed the name from Weyland Industries to Weyland Corp so I guess thats technically not a contradiction?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Russ on Dec 31, 2018, 10:10:43 AM
Post by: Russ on Dec 31, 2018, 10:10:43 AM
I think Covenant makes it pretty clear that David is the creator of the alien. It's canon.
I think it's a shit idea and answers a question no one really wanted to know the answer to - or if they did, they wanted that answer to be that it was an eons old species that was taken out of its natural environment and couldn't be controlled (like the first comic book series if I remember).
I think that all this debate stems from that fact that a lot of people just don't agree with the creative choices made in Prometheus and Covenant... I'm one of them. But that we don't agree doesn't make it not so.
I think it's a shit idea and answers a question no one really wanted to know the answer to - or if they did, they wanted that answer to be that it was an eons old species that was taken out of its natural environment and couldn't be controlled (like the first comic book series if I remember).
I think that all this debate stems from that fact that a lot of people just don't agree with the creative choices made in Prometheus and Covenant... I'm one of them. But that we don't agree doesn't make it not so.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 10:40:29 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 10:40:29 AM
Xenomorphs being ancient and David creating a Xenomorph did not contradict each other.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: The Kurgan on Dec 31, 2018, 10:52:29 AM
Post by: The Kurgan on Dec 31, 2018, 10:52:29 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 10:40:29 AM
Xenomorphs being ancient and David creating a Xenomorph did not contradict each other.
If you take how the creation is displayed in Covenat and Ridley stating that David did not create "a" xenomorph but "the" xenomorph it does.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 11:37:07 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 11:37:07 AM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Dec 31, 2018, 10:52:29 AMQuote from: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 10:40:29 AM
Xenomorphs being ancient and David creating a Xenomorph did not contradict each other.
If you take how the creation is displayed in Covenat and Ridley stating that David did not create "a" xenomorph but "the" xenomorph it does.
The contradiction would only happen if Ridley said "Xenomorphs can only have one creator", which he never did.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: The Kurgan on Dec 31, 2018, 11:56:47 AM
Post by: The Kurgan on Dec 31, 2018, 11:56:47 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 11:37:07 AMQuote from: The Kurgan on Dec 31, 2018, 10:52:29 AMQuote from: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 10:40:29 AM
Xenomorphs being ancient and David creating a Xenomorph did not contradict each other.
If you take how the creation is displayed in Covenat and Ridley stating that David did not create "a" xenomorph but "the" xenomorph it does.
The contradiction would only happen if Ridley said "Xenomorphs can only have one creator", which he never did.
He said David did it, he created "the" creature.That leaves no room for additional creators or David would have created "a" xenomorph, not "the" xenomorph.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 12:04:11 PM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 12:04:11 PM
But he never shown that on the screen.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Dec 31, 2018, 12:08:46 PM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Dec 31, 2018, 12:08:46 PM
https://youtu.be/Qo30bZc10D0 (https://youtu.be/Qo30bZc10D0)
3:26. Doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.
3:26. Doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 12:13:11 PM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 12:13:11 PM
Quote from: David's Creation on Dec 31, 2018, 12:08:46 PM
https://youtu.be/Qo30bZc10D0 (https://youtu.be/Qo30bZc10D0)
3:26. Doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.
But he didn't show that in the movie itself.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Dec 31, 2018, 12:29:08 PM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Dec 31, 2018, 12:29:08 PM
David says he began "experimenting" with "engineering" and "hybridizing." Then he shows Oram his "successes".
Recreating an ancient life form with blueprints that he found doesn't sound like much of an experiment to me.
I'm not sure how much more the film should have shown to prevent this debate from happening.
Recreating an ancient life form with blueprints that he found doesn't sound like much of an experiment to me.
I'm not sure how much more the film should have shown to prevent this debate from happening.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 01:12:52 PM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 01:12:52 PM
Quote from: David's Creation on Dec 31, 2018, 12:29:08 PM
David says he began "experimenting" with "engineering" and "hybridizing." Then he shows Oram his "successes".
Recreating an ancient life form with blueprints that he found doesn't sound like much of an experiment to me.
I'm not sure how much more the film should have shown to prevent this debate from happening.
I think its the other way around. If an ancient xenomorph shows up, it would contradict no events in covenant.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Dec 31, 2018, 01:24:05 PM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Dec 31, 2018, 01:24:05 PM
So ancient engineers and David both arrived at the same creature by coincidence?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 01:50:39 PM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 01:50:39 PM
Quote from: David's Creation on Dec 31, 2018, 01:24:05 PM
So ancient engineers and David both arrived at the same creature by coincidence?
I think, as it stands right now, if an ancient xenomorph shows up, it would "prove" that David is recreating the creature, but there would be no contradiction.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: The Kurgan on Dec 31, 2018, 02:01:49 PM
Post by: The Kurgan on Dec 31, 2018, 02:01:49 PM
Quote from: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 01:50:39 PMQuote from: David's Creation on Dec 31, 2018, 01:24:05 PM
So ancient engineers and David both arrived at the same creature by coincidence?
I think, as it stands right now, if an ancient xenomorph shows up, it would "prove" that David is recreating the creature
If ;)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 02:22:01 PM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 02:22:01 PM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Dec 31, 2018, 02:01:49 PMQuote from: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 01:50:39 PMQuote from: David's Creation on Dec 31, 2018, 01:24:05 PM
So ancient engineers and David both arrived at the same creature by coincidence?
I think, as it stands right now, if an ancient xenomorph shows up, it would "prove" that David is recreating the creature
If ;)
It is essentially "old Derelict proves David is recreating the creature" Instead of "David proving that the derelict is young"
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: The Kurgan on Dec 31, 2018, 02:26:01 PM
Post by: The Kurgan on Dec 31, 2018, 02:26:01 PM
Quote from: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 02:22:01 PMQuote from: The Kurgan on Dec 31, 2018, 02:01:49 PMQuote from: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 01:50:39 PMQuote from: David's Creation on Dec 31, 2018, 01:24:05 PM
So ancient engineers and David both arrived at the same creature by coincidence?
I think, as it stands right now, if an ancient xenomorph shows up, it would "prove" that David is recreating the creature
If ;)
It is essentially "old Derelict proves David is recreating the creature" Instead of "David proving that the derelict is young"
I think the theme of Covenant, David's monologue about his creation and Ridley confirming > Derelict looks old, if you look at what speaks for the respective origin.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Dec 31, 2018, 02:30:34 PM
Post by: The Old One on Dec 31, 2018, 02:30:34 PM
Quote from: David's Creation on Dec 31, 2018, 01:24:05 PM
So ancient engineers and David both arrived at the same creature by coincidence?
Unless the Pathogen
was derived from the
"Original" Alien
in the first place.
As for whether AVP
has any bearing on
the discussion:
Peter Weyland founded
Weyland Corporation Circa 2012.
Charles Bishop Weyland's story
takes place in 2004.
Is cited in the film as a
designer of synthetics
on the magazine
on the chopper.
In AVP 2010 this
story thread is continued.
In the Peter Weyland
2023 TED Talk, he states;
At this moment in our civilization,
we can create
cybernetic individuals,
who in just a few short years
will be completely
indistinguishable from us.
The W-Y Report, it states both
that Peter Weyland founded
Weyland Corporation in 2012.
& That Michael Bishop is
(A character eeriely resembling
Charles B.W, and Karl B.W,
which AVP 2010 suggested
was an Android.
Which if otherwise
would make the AVP timeline
laughable.)
unrelated to the Weyland family.
AVP hasn't been canon since 2012.
Look at it like this;
Pre-2012
AVP Timeline;
AVP, AVPR 2004:
Charles Bishop Weyland,
founder of Weyland Industries
dies- his memories up until
the expedition artificially
preserved.
Alien, Aliens, Alien³:
Michael Bishop Weyland,
attempts to acquire the Alien,
fails- his memories passed to
Karl Bishop Weyland
after his near fatal injury.
AVP 2010:
Events of AVP 2010,
Karl Bishop Weyland
is destroyed, memories
pass on to his successor
and discovers the
Alien "Homeworld" location
"Let's hope my predecessor's
faith in it was justified."
2012+ Timeline:
Prometheus:
It's established
that of 2012
Weyland Corporation's
founded, it's even at the end
of Prometheus' credits.
"Building Better Worlds"
Since 12/12/2012.
Making CBW unable to exist,
if this is true as
multiple sources;
Prometheus,
Weyland Corp Website,
The W-Y Report &
Ridley Scott- leads us to believe.
Peter Weyland dies
alongside Meredith Vickers
his only known descendant.
Alien, Aliens, Alien³:
The W-Y Report states
Michael Bishop is human
and responsible for the
Bishop Android likeness.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 02:31:06 PM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 02:31:06 PM
well, Derelict doesn't have to be ancient, but David also doesn't have to be the only creator. That's why its open to interpretation.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Dec 31, 2018, 02:40:02 PM
Post by: The Old One on Dec 31, 2018, 02:40:02 PM
I think that's a
nonsensical conclusion.
Unless the Pathogen
exists because it comes from
the Xenomorph itself, eons ago-
I find it highly unlikely, with the
methodology David employed
that many would arrive at the
same conclusion he did.
To the point if that turned out
to be the case, it would be
laughable and stink of a
kneejerk reaction to criticism.
nonsensical conclusion.
Unless the Pathogen
exists because it comes from
the Xenomorph itself, eons ago-
I find it highly unlikely, with the
methodology David employed
that many would arrive at the
same conclusion he did.
To the point if that turned out
to be the case, it would be
laughable and stink of a
kneejerk reaction to criticism.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Dec 31, 2018, 03:21:59 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Dec 31, 2018, 03:21:59 PM
iPhone anology rearing its head in 3... 2....1...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Dec 31, 2018, 03:25:17 PM
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Dec 31, 2018, 03:25:17 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Dec 31, 2018, 03:21:59 PM
iPhone anology rearing its head in 3... 2....1...
Twinkies!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 06:59:30 PM
Post by: yhe1 on Dec 31, 2018, 06:59:30 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Dec 31, 2018, 02:40:02 PM
highly unlikely
Now imagine if the neomorph is black.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: proto leech on Dec 31, 2018, 07:46:54 PM
Post by: proto leech on Dec 31, 2018, 07:46:54 PM
Still dont understand how david "engineered" anything. He had no equiment for any kind for bioengineering even if he was a top of the line AI. At most he was sticking black goo into other things already infected with black goo and stroking his synthedic cock with delusions of being a creator
The deacon was a "natural" progression of the pathogen so it seems no matter what the goo leads to alien-ish beings reguardless of tin can meddling. I can only hope riddles get it through his skull how STUPID creator david is before he does anything with prequel 3
The deacon was a "natural" progression of the pathogen so it seems no matter what the goo leads to alien-ish beings reguardless of tin can meddling. I can only hope riddles get it through his skull how STUPID creator david is before he does anything with prequel 3
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: 426Buddy on Dec 31, 2018, 09:04:09 PM
Post by: 426Buddy on Dec 31, 2018, 09:04:09 PM
Who knows what tech David had access to on planet 4.
Seems like he had all the tools he needed.
Seems like he had all the tools he needed.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Dec 31, 2018, 10:10:39 PM
Post by: SM on Dec 31, 2018, 10:10:39 PM
Indeed.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Dec 31, 2018, 10:57:27 PM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Dec 31, 2018, 10:57:27 PM
The way he describes the black goo, it sounds like it did a lot of the work for him. He just provided the right mixtures.
But I do like to think there was some pretty advanced tech offscreen. The engineers did have spaceships after all.
But I do like to think there was some pretty advanced tech offscreen. The engineers did have spaceships after all.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Dec 31, 2018, 11:54:07 PM
Post by: SM on Dec 31, 2018, 11:54:07 PM
Quite.
And they had technology to seed planets with their genetic material.
And they had technology to seed planets with their genetic material.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 01, 2019, 04:17:43 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 01, 2019, 04:17:43 AM
Quote from: The Old One on Dec 31, 2018, 02:30:34 PMQuote from: David's Creation on Dec 31, 2018, 01:24:05 PM
So ancient engineers and David both arrived at the same creature by coincidence?
Unless the Pathogen
was derived from the
"Original" Alien
in the first place.
As for whether AVP
has any bearing on
the discussion:
Peter Weyland founded
Weyland Corporation Circa 2012.
Charles Bishop Weyland's story
takes place in 2004.
Is cited in the film as a
designer of synthetics
on the magazine
on the chopper.
In AVP 2010 this
story thread is continued.
In the Peter Weyland
2023 TED Talk, he states;
At this moment in our civilization,
we can create
cybernetic individuals,
who in just a few short years
will be completely
indistinguishable from us.
The W-Y Report, it states both
that Peter Weyland founded
Weyland Corporation in 2012.
& That Michael Bishop is
(A character eeriely resembling
Charles B.W, and Karl B.W,
which AVP 2010 suggested
was an Android.
Which if otherwise
would make the AVP timeline
laughable.)
unrelated to the Weyland family.
AVP hasn't been canon since 2012.
Look at it like this;
Pre-2012
AVP Timeline;
AVP, AVPR 2004:
Charles Bishop Weyland,
founder of Weyland Industries
dies- his memories up until
the expedition artificially
preserved.
Alien, Aliens, Alien³:
Michael Bishop Weyland,
attempts to acquire the Alien,
fails- his memories passed to
Karl Bishop Weyland
after his near fatal injury.
AVP 2010:
Events of AVP 2010,
Karl Bishop Weyland
is destroyed, memories
pass on to his successor
and discovers the
Alien "Homeworld" location
"Let's hope my predecessor's
faith in it was justified."
2012+ Timeline:
Prometheus:
It's established
that of 2012
Weyland Corporation's
founded, it's even at the end
of Prometheus' credits.
"Building Better Worlds"
Since 12/12/2012.
Making CBW unable to exist,
if this is true as
multiple sources;
Prometheus,
Weyland Corp Website,
The W-Y Report &
Ridley Scott- leads us to believe.
Peter Weyland dies
alongside Meredith Vickers
his only known descendant.
Alien, Aliens, Alien³:
The W-Y Report states
Michael Bishop is human
and responsible for the
Bishop Android likeness.
what about Peter Weyland being the son of Charles Bishop weyland? Are there contridictions there?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 01, 2019, 04:32:44 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 01, 2019, 04:32:44 AM
If you ignore every other contradiction in
the official timeline, W-Y Report
and everything 2012+, no.
the official timeline, W-Y Report
and everything 2012+, no.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 01, 2019, 04:41:04 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 01, 2019, 04:41:04 AM
Not sure CBW was a Professor of Comparative Mythology... Also Peter had 12 registered patents by his 14th birthday - and Charles was complaining he had no legacy.
AvP is completely separate from Alien. Anderson and the Strauses/ Salerno tried to set the AvP's up as prequels to Alien, but when they were writing Prometheus, Lindelof reminded Ridley about AvP...
"You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies," he [Ridley] just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process.
AvP is completely separate from Alien. Anderson and the Strauses/ Salerno tried to set the AvP's up as prequels to Alien, but when they were writing Prometheus, Lindelof reminded Ridley about AvP...
"You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies," he [Ridley] just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 01, 2019, 05:03:52 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 01, 2019, 05:03:52 AM
^
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 01, 2019, 05:25:51 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 01, 2019, 05:25:51 AM
>
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Jan 01, 2019, 05:36:13 AM
Post by: Huggs on Jan 01, 2019, 05:36:13 AM
<
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 01, 2019, 05:49:33 AM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 01, 2019, 05:49:33 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 01, 2019, 04:41:04 AM
Not sure CBW was a Professor of Comparative Mythology... Also Peter had 12 registered patents by his 14th birthday - and Charles was complaining he had no legacy.
AvP is completely separate from Alien. Anderson and the Strauses/ Salerno tried to set the AvP's up as prequels to Alien, but when they were writing Prometheus, Lindelof reminded Ridley about AvP...
"You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies," he [Ridley] just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process.
This story warms my heart.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 01, 2019, 05:51:08 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 01, 2019, 05:51:08 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 01, 2019, 04:41:04 AM
Not sure CBW was a Professor of Comparative Mythology... Also Peter had 12 registered patents by his 14th birthday - and Charles was complaining he had no legacy.
AvP is completely separate from Alien. Anderson and the Strauses/ Salerno tried to set the AvP's up as prequels to Alien, but when they were writing Prometheus, Lindelof reminded Ridley about AvP...
"You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies," he [Ridley] just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process.
I know they are separate, I just wanted to know whether they can fit or not.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 01, 2019, 05:57:10 AM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 01, 2019, 05:57:10 AM
They can fit if you want to do the mental gymnastics.
I understand the desire to do this. I've been doing the same thing for years with Halloween. I did the gymnastics to make parts 1-8 fit together... (The new movie threw a wrench in that though.)
I understand the desire to do this. I've been doing the same thing for years with Halloween. I did the gymnastics to make parts 1-8 fit together... (The new movie threw a wrench in that though.)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 01, 2019, 09:42:47 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 01, 2019, 09:42:47 AM
I explored the idea some years back with Fox, but it ultimately didn't go ahead.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: irn on Jan 01, 2019, 02:33:52 PM
Post by: irn on Jan 01, 2019, 02:33:52 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 01, 2019, 04:41:04 AM
"You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies," he [Ridley] just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process.
The fact that Lindelof considered AvP in the writing process, let alone even thought of it as canon, makes me even more annoyed at his involvement that I already previously was. And that was quite considerable.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 01, 2019, 03:30:40 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 01, 2019, 03:30:40 PM
Jon Spaihts also referenced AVP in The Furious Gods, but nothing important, however.
Although given the similarities between Prometheus and AVP, who knows. Maybe they stole some ideas from there, and Ridley never knew about it. He never saw AVP, apparently.
Although given the similarities between Prometheus and AVP, who knows. Maybe they stole some ideas from there, and Ridley never knew about it. He never saw AVP, apparently.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 01, 2019, 07:12:45 PM
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 01, 2019, 07:12:45 PM
Fire and stone and life and death is awesome, so I think people just meant "bad avp"
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: The Kurgan on Jan 01, 2019, 07:19:58 PM
Post by: The Kurgan on Jan 01, 2019, 07:19:58 PM
Quote from: yhe1 on Jan 01, 2019, 07:12:45 PM
Fire and stone and life and death is awesome, so I think people just meant "bad avp"
For a lot of people FaS and LaD is bad AVP :D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 01, 2019, 07:53:05 PM
Post by: SM on Jan 01, 2019, 07:53:05 PM
Quote from: irn on Jan 01, 2019, 02:33:52 PMQuote from: SM on Jan 01, 2019, 04:41:04 AM
"You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies," he [Ridley] just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process.
The fact that Lindelof considered AvP in the writing process, let alone even thought of it as canon, makes me even more annoyed at his involvement that I already previously was. And that was quite considerable.
Is there a reason at that point that he should not have considered it so?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 01, 2019, 08:13:23 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 01, 2019, 08:13:23 PM
Quote from: The Kurgan on Jan 01, 2019, 07:19:58 PMQuote from: yhe1 on Jan 01, 2019, 07:12:45 PM
Fire and stone and life and death is awesome, so I think people just meant "bad avp"
For a lot of people FaS and LaD is bad AVP :D
Speaking about that, what if Kane's son is able to morph into a huge organic mountain. Maybe that was its goal from the start: morph the entire Nostromo into a massive "Big Chap" mountain floating in the middle of space.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: The Kurgan on Jan 01, 2019, 08:31:32 PM
Post by: The Kurgan on Jan 01, 2019, 08:31:32 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 01, 2019, 08:13:23 PMQuote from: The Kurgan on Jan 01, 2019, 07:19:58 PMQuote from: yhe1 on Jan 01, 2019, 07:12:45 PM
Fire and stone and life and death is awesome, so I think people just meant "bad avp"
For a lot of people FaS and LaD is bad AVP :D
Speaking about that, what if Kane's son is able to morph into a huge organic mountain. Maybe that was its goal from the start: morph the entire Nostromo into a massive "Big Chap" mountain floating in the middle of space.
Eric Red's Aliens :D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 01, 2019, 08:35:16 PM
Post by: SM on Jan 01, 2019, 08:35:16 PM
Beat me to it. ;D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 01, 2019, 10:26:38 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 01, 2019, 10:26:38 PM
Actually, I have a guilty pleasure about it. The Black Goo 2.0, but more like if "The Thing" and "Spinoza's God" (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spinoza/) had a son: a very old life-form in the form of a living substance with intelligence. We can call it Mother, Giger's Gaia or Giger's Matter. Just think about the shapeshifting virus of "The Thing" with the goal of assimilate an intelligent alien race capable of building spaceships to travel through the stars and, in this way, colonize new worlds. I can envision Giger's Gaia as the sole creator of the Alien. Those beautiful beast are like her elite assault troops. But she need a transport to move her troops around the galaxy. So what happens when this AI-like-Organism touch an intelligent race of beings?
Similar to Eggmorphing process, this thing can do bioengineering in order to shape a complete civilization: creating alien ecosystems, space ships, cities/hives and a whole technological tree to travel through the stars: destroying other lifeforms in the process of terraforming planets. There is a symbiosis, but at the end of the day they are all hosts for the most powerful parasite ever. This Giger Matter. You may find a similar concept in the film Annihilation.
(https://i.imgur.com/0YVBq4Z.jpg)
Similar to Eggmorphing process, this thing can do bioengineering in order to shape a complete civilization: creating alien ecosystems, space ships, cities/hives and a whole technological tree to travel through the stars: destroying other lifeforms in the process of terraforming planets. There is a symbiosis, but at the end of the day they are all hosts for the most powerful parasite ever. This Giger Matter. You may find a similar concept in the film Annihilation.
(https://i.imgur.com/JrMSgob.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/BGuUfZp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/BGuUfZp.jpg)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Jan 02, 2019, 09:14:12 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jan 02, 2019, 09:14:12 AM
Quote from: David's Creation on Dec 31, 2018, 01:24:05 PMThis is not uncommon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_discovery).
So ancient engineers and David both arrived at the same creature by coincidence?
Quote from: SiL on Dec 30, 2018, 04:54:58 AMCovenant isn't vague on the matter, but the franchise narrative on the whole sure is.Quote from: yhe1 on Dec 30, 2018, 04:52:26 AMThe prequels currently say it does have one creator, though. This might be revealed to not be the case, but right now Covenant itself isn't vague on the matter.
Hence why I said the debate will never settle, but it does highlight the issue: "The prequel films never said xenomorphs can only have one creator"
Quote from: Russ on Dec 31, 2018, 10:10:43 AMThere's 40-year-old evidence in the form of the first movie that calls David's actions into question, whether he realizes it or not. It isn't just "people don't like the idea", it's "the idea also doesn't make sense in the context of other evidence". Maybe a future movie will fix that, maybe it won't.
I think Covenant makes it pretty clear that David is the creator of the alien. It's canon.
I think it's a shit idea and answers a question no one really wanted to know the answer to - or if they did, they wanted that answer to be that it was an eons old species that was taken out of its natural environment and couldn't be controlled (like the first comic book series if I remember).
I think that all this debate stems from that fact that a lot of people just don't agree with the creative choices made in Prometheus and Covenant... I'm one of them. But that we don't agree doesn't make it not so.
Quote from: The Kurgan on Dec 31, 2018, 02:26:01 PMThere are other themes at work in Covenant than just that, though - the prequel movies crib heavily from gothic horror like Frankenstein or Dracula, and a major component of that is hubris (and how it causes characters' downfalls). David is the Mad Scientist, and the Mad Scientist (almost) always gets f**ked in the end. What better way to annihilate his ego than to strip his creation from him and say "Yeah, this is bigger than you, small fry".
I think the theme of Covenant, David's monologue about his creation and Ridley confirming > Derelict looks old, if you look at what speaks for the respective origin.
Covenant even thematically lampshades it when David screws up the author of the Ozymandias quote, and doesn't realize that he did it. David gets the author of his favorite quote wrong, by accident.
Think about that for a moment.
He unwittingly gets the creator of one of his favorite things wrong. I'm pretty sure that wasn't an accidental inclusion on Ridley's part.
I know the adage "Ridley says a lot of things" and it's the main reason why I ignore almost everything he says, but he's got a quote where he says he likes stirring the pot because it gets people talking about his movies, and that's what he enjoys most. What if this is basically all long-form trolling, and he's had David's arc planned out and has been publicly stringing people along with false information so that each new movie upends audience expectations. 'Prometheus' sets up a sequel where Shaw goes on a journey to find the Engineers and get answers, and Ridley Scott says in a bunch of interviews "oh yeah Shaw is going to go on a fantastical journey in the next one, and the Engineers made the Alien", and then 'Covenant' comes out and neither of those things end up being "true".
Now, Ridley is saying "oh yeah David made the Alien" in interviews, so people are predicting where the third movie will go based on that information, just like they did with Prometheus to Covenant.
What I'm getting at here is, whether by accident or by design, Ridley Scott's word can't be trusted. :P
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 02, 2019, 09:33:59 AM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 02, 2019, 09:33:59 AM
Here's the other part I don't get:
If the aliens existed before David, then why do the prequels tell the story of him making something almost exactly the same? What's the narrative purpose of telling a story before Alien that tells the origin of an unrelated strain of xenomorphs? What would be the appeal of a prequel if it's pre-ordained and they just confirm what we'd always assumed: that the engineers made the aliens?
These prequels exist to tell the origin of the aliens. I understand not wanting that, but that's what they are. The original draft of Alien: Engineers was a pre-ordained story that confirmed the aliens were made by the engineers. But in the direction they ultimately took, these prequels justify themselves existing by giving us an unepxpected origin in David.
If David isn't the origin of the xenomorphs as we know them, then both prequels seem completely pointless to me.
If the aliens existed before David, then why do the prequels tell the story of him making something almost exactly the same? What's the narrative purpose of telling a story before Alien that tells the origin of an unrelated strain of xenomorphs? What would be the appeal of a prequel if it's pre-ordained and they just confirm what we'd always assumed: that the engineers made the aliens?
These prequels exist to tell the origin of the aliens. I understand not wanting that, but that's what they are. The original draft of Alien: Engineers was a pre-ordained story that confirmed the aliens were made by the engineers. But in the direction they ultimately took, these prequels justify themselves existing by giving us an unepxpected origin in David.
If David isn't the origin of the xenomorphs as we know them, then both prequels seem completely pointless to me.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 02, 2019, 11:22:05 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 02, 2019, 11:22:05 AM
Completely pointless
if you don't think
David himself is enough
to justify their existence,
or the expansion of the universe;
Weyland Corporation's
Founder's Fate,
The Pathogen,
The Engineers,
The A.I.
Take your pick.
if you don't think
David himself is enough
to justify their existence,
or the expansion of the universe;
Weyland Corporation's
Founder's Fate,
The Pathogen,
The Engineers,
The A.I.
Take your pick.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 02, 2019, 11:43:05 AM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 02, 2019, 11:43:05 AM
Not interested in any of those things as much as I am in the creatures themselves.
All of that other shit is bonus features and EU content, not full fledged $100 million film entries.
All of that other shit is bonus features and EU content, not full fledged $100 million film entries.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: SiL on Jan 02, 2019, 01:00:14 PM
Post by: SiL on Jan 02, 2019, 01:00:14 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 02, 2019, 09:14:12 AMYou're really over-stretching this one to try to make a point. Multiple discovery doesn't usually result in people arriving at making exactly the same thing independently. There's usually some variation.Quote from: David's Creation on Dec 31, 2018, 01:24:05 PMThis is not uncommon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_discovery).
So ancient engineers and David both arrived at the same creature by coincidence?
The Deacon is a great example of multiple discovery - similar life cycle, similar functions of the different states of the life cycle, etc, without literally being the exact same organism. You're trying to make an argument that unrelated intelligences would find the same mutated species and seek to turn them into the same modified organism, for which you're surely lacking precedence.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 02, 2019, 01:51:42 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 02, 2019, 01:51:42 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jan 02, 2019, 01:00:14 PMQuote from: Xenomrph on Jan 02, 2019, 09:14:12 AMYou're really over-stretching this one to try to make a point. Multiple discovery doesn't usually result in people arriving at making exactly the same thing independently. There's usually some variation.Quote from: David's Creation on Dec 31, 2018, 01:24:05 PMThis is not uncommon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_discovery).
So ancient engineers and David both arrived at the same creature by coincidence?
Untrue. Here's an example:
Look at this painting I stumbled upon. Study it.
(https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1hFFCOFXXXXbbaXXXq6xXFXXXL/Diamond-embroidery-scenery-setting-sun-Cross-stitch-diamond-painting-fishing-man-Picture-of-diamond-mosaic-landscape.jpg_640x640q70.jpg_.webp)
Now...
look at this very drawing I drew a week before:
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/man-boat-fishing-stick-figure-man-icon-man-boat-fishing-icon-102551665.jpg)
Stunning right? Not a single variation detected.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 02, 2019, 05:35:50 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 02, 2019, 05:35:50 PM
Quote from: David's Creation on Jan 02, 2019, 11:43:05 AM
Not interested in any of those things as much as I am in the creatures themselves.
All of that other shit is bonus features and EU content, not full fledged $100 million film entries.
It's not like they're absent.
It's still ultimately about them.
Take TCF for example,
we learned stuff about the Alien-
But it wasn't strictly entirely
about them either.
It's not bonus features or
EU content, without those things-
you'd have a pretty empty
universe. &
Alien wouldn't be the same
without Ash or the Space Jockey.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 02, 2019, 06:08:20 PM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 02, 2019, 06:08:20 PM
Right, but I wouldn't care to see a xenomorphs-less spin-off prequel about Ash, and casual Alien fans wouldn't either.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 02, 2019, 06:28:31 PM
Post by: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 02, 2019, 06:28:31 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 01, 2019, 03:30:40 PM
Jon Spaihts also referenced AVP in The Furious Gods, but nothing important, however.
Although given the similarities between Prometheus and AVP, who knows. Maybe they stole some ideas from there, and Ridley never knew about it. He never saw AVP, apparently.
Think the similarities both originated from the original Alien (Star Beast) script. And from Lovecraft's stories, which were a big influence on that Alien script.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 02, 2019, 07:21:40 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 02, 2019, 07:21:40 PM
Quote from: David's Creation on Jan 02, 2019, 06:08:20 PM
Right, but I wouldn't care to see a xenomorphs-less spin-off prequel about Ash, and casual Alien fans wouldn't either.
That wasn't what I was saying at all.
And I think it's rather arrogant to say that
when Prometheus (Alien under a pseudonym)
a film in the Alien universe, with "Alien DNA"
but not a direct prequel, made as much money
as it did. Without THE Alien.
I was saying there are elements
indispensable to the Alien universe
which enriched the first film
and made it the masterpiece it is-
other than the Alien itself.
And to your initial point-
the third prequel could still reveal
(or a future unrelated film)
that neither the Engineers nor David
created the Alien.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: JokersWarPig on Jan 02, 2019, 07:39:01 PM
Post by: JokersWarPig on Jan 02, 2019, 07:39:01 PM
David couldn't have made the xenomorphs since they've been around since (at least) 1997 ::)
Technically speaking, as bad as it was, The Predator also confirms the events of AVP so...
Technically speaking, as bad as it was, The Predator also confirms the events of AVP so...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 02, 2019, 07:45:05 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 02, 2019, 07:45:05 PM
Nah, just means currently-
Predator & AVP aren't canon to Alien.
They more contradict one another than they are connected.
As in 2016, Peter Weyland reversed Global Warming-
meaning that the plot of The Predator (2018)
couldn't have happened.
Predator & AVP aren't canon to Alien.
They more contradict one another than they are connected.
As in 2016, Peter Weyland reversed Global Warming-
meaning that the plot of The Predator (2018)
couldn't have happened.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 02, 2019, 08:08:25 PM
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 02, 2019, 08:08:25 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 02, 2019, 07:45:05 PM
Nah, just means currently-
Predator & AVP aren't canon to Alien.
They more contradict one another than they are connected.
As in 2016, Peter Weyland reversed Global Warming-
meaning that the plot of The Predator (2018)
couldn't have happened.
Although technically, nothing in the Predator established that it happened in 2018 tho, just after 1997
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 02, 2019, 08:31:18 PM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 02, 2019, 08:31:18 PM
A lot of people actually didn't know Prometheus was a prequel to Alien. It also made money largely because it took advantage of the 3D boom. I don't think it made money because people were excited about a story set in the Alien universe that wasn't going to have aliens in it.
But this is getting far from my point, which was that not having David be the creator cheapens David's story and its place in the Alien saga. That's all I'm saying.
I'd rather have:
six Alien movies that all connect and focus on the same strain of xenomorph
as opposed to:
four Alien movies, two AVP movies, and then two separate prequels about an android who creates loosely related monsters that look very similar to xenomorphs. I don't see the narrative point in that, no matter what other elements of the Alien universe are being expanded upon.
But this is getting far from my point, which was that not having David be the creator cheapens David's story and its place in the Alien saga. That's all I'm saying.
I'd rather have:
six Alien movies that all connect and focus on the same strain of xenomorph
as opposed to:
four Alien movies, two AVP movies, and then two separate prequels about an android who creates loosely related monsters that look very similar to xenomorphs. I don't see the narrative point in that, no matter what other elements of the Alien universe are being expanded upon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 02, 2019, 08:41:04 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 02, 2019, 08:41:04 PM
I disagree.
David found our creators and wiped out their homeworld, that's enough alone.
And reintroduced the Alien to the galactic stage.
As for David's creation;
No, I'd say they are indeed "Xenomorphs" not similar creatures.
(I'd just prefer they weren't the first.)
I'd rather have a good story above all other priorities.
There's no necessity to make everything connect.
That's banal.
That's why
TCF > Alien Prequels.
David found our creators and wiped out their homeworld, that's enough alone.
And reintroduced the Alien to the galactic stage.
As for David's creation;
No, I'd say they are indeed "Xenomorphs" not similar creatures.
(I'd just prefer they weren't the first.)
I'd rather have a good story above all other priorities.
There's no necessity to make everything connect.
That's banal.
That's why
TCF > Alien Prequels.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 02, 2019, 08:46:54 PM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 02, 2019, 08:46:54 PM
TCF?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 02, 2019, 08:53:12 PM
Post by: SM on Jan 02, 2019, 08:53:12 PM
The Cold Forge (novel by Alex White).
And there's a fan comic in the works about Ash. Dunno about the story but the art looks sweet. ;)
And there's a fan comic in the works about Ash. Dunno about the story but the art looks sweet. ;)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 08:51:27 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 08:51:27 AM
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 02, 2019, 07:45:05 PM
Nah, just means currently-
Predator & AVP aren't canon to Alien.
They more contradict one another than they are connected.
As in 2016, Peter Weyland reversed Global Warming-
meaning that the plot of The Predator (2018)
couldn't have happened.
The Predator's global warming plot point could be seen as retcon to that part of the Weyland Industries timeline. It depends on how you look at it really.
Quote from: David's Creation on Jan 02, 2019, 08:31:18 PM
But this is getting far from my point, which was that not having David be the creator cheapens David's story and its place in the Alien saga. That's all I'm saying.
I see where you're coming from but I think having David realise that he was mistaken about creating this perfect organism would only add to David's story. David is clearly defective and delusional as seen when he misattributes the Ozymandias quote to Byron instead of Shelley. In his current state he sees himself as a God above humans and engineers. One of the only ways for him to have true downfall from this is to have him realise that he is not the true creator. Yes maybe the engineers being the creators is too obvious. So have it that the engineers synthesized the Black Pathogen from the xenos and leave their origin a mystery. Or if we must know re-introduce the Space Jockeys as a race above the engineers and have them be the creators.
This also adds to the theme of the cycle of creation and destruction. Space Jockeys create Engineers and Xenomorphs, Engineers create humans and Black Pathogen, Humans create Androids and...?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 12:35:16 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 12:35:16 PM
Or all evidence points
to the same conclusion
that it has since 2012,
that being the Alien films
are not congruent with
even the idea of AVP.
-
Android broadcasts the
Advent transmission?
to the same conclusion
that it has since 2012,
that being the Alien films
are not congruent with
even the idea of AVP.
-
Android broadcasts the
Advent transmission?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 12:45:26 PM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 12:45:26 PM
I get what you're saying I really do. You believe Aliens has it's own canon. Predator and AVP have their own canon right? But wouldn't it be safe to say that within the Predator and AVP canon is also lore from Aliens where it fits? Where 90% of the time I'd say it does.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 12:48:54 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 12:48:54 PM
Perhaps a version.
But not the one we see onscreen.
For instance AVP 2010
would make infinitely
more sense with no
Peter Weyland and
if Michael Bishop was
indeed an Android.
But not the one we see onscreen.
For instance AVP 2010
would make infinitely
more sense with no
Peter Weyland and
if Michael Bishop was
indeed an Android.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 12:54:35 PM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 12:54:35 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I think AVP 2010 is more successful with both Peter Weyland and a human Michael Bishop having existed. Especially with him being endowed with the memories of previous Weylands, including those of Charles and all.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 01:02:53 PM
Post by: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 01:02:53 PM
Alien is currently a seperate entity to Predator and AvP. The different canons are just that - different.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 01:13:13 PM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 01:13:13 PM
Who says?
When considering AVP do they not all fall under the same banner?
When considering AVP do they not all fall under the same banner?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 01:47:08 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 01:47:08 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 01:02:53 PM
Alien is currently a seperate entity to Predator and AvP. The different canons are just that - different.
Charles Bishop Weyland played by Lance Henriksen and I fundamentally disagree with this statement.
You can say it's been retconned out, fine, because Ridley Scott hated the AvP movies, but it was certainly canon. Declaring it as a separate entity is just as bad as the David-created-the-Xenomorph deniers, a causality stripped down to someone not liking the narrative's result.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 03, 2019, 02:13:36 PM
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 03, 2019, 02:13:36 PM
Nope... AvP is its own universe :P
You could make a case that AvP and Predator share the same universe perhaps. But the alien series is seperate.
You could make a case that AvP and Predator share the same universe perhaps. But the alien series is seperate.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 02:18:48 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 02:18:48 PM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 12:54:35 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I think AVP 2010 is more successful with both Peter Weyland and a human Michael Bishop having existed. Especially with him being endowed with the memories of previous Weylands, including those of Charles and all.
Which would make much more
sense if "previous Weylands"
were Androids, the game
all but says as much
by showing an
identical successor to
Karl Bishop Weyland.
The game's narrative
was made in mind with this,
it's really quite clear.
As it wasn't firmly established
in 2010 that Michael Bishop
was human and
Peter Weyland didn't yet exist.
I think it makes much more sense,
in respect to the people involved
in each individual project
to treat them as such.
Not retroactively try to fit
narrative elements that directly;
and sometimes deliberately
contradict each other together.
AVP 2004, AVPR, AVP 2010 +
Alien, Aliens, Alien³
Charles Bishop Weyland- Founder
Michael Bishop (Weyland)
Karl Bishop Weyland
&
Prometheus, W-Y Report, 2012+
Alien, Aliens, Alien³
Peter Weyland -Founder
David "Weyland"
Michael Bishop
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 02:32:33 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 02:32:33 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 03, 2019, 02:13:36 PM
Nope... AvP is its own universe :P
You could make a case that AvP and Predator share the same universe perhaps. But the alien series is seperate.
This is solely based on your desire not to have them connected.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 02:59:10 PM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 02:59:10 PM
I really do not think the game's narrative was made with that in mind. Just because it wasn't firmly confirmed that Michael Bishop was human doesn't mean it infers the opposite. When it talks about Karl being endowed with the memories of previous Weylands, including those of Charles, it's meaning the bloodline of Weylands, including the very human - Charles. The 'identical successor' seems to be a backup plan of Karl's having that consciousness and mixture of memories in multiple androids.
Are you sure you're not getting confused with ACM's android double of Michael Bishop.
Also why do you set out your paragraphs like that? I must say it's a bit annoying and is a waste of space.
Are you sure you're not getting confused with ACM's android double of Michael Bishop.
Also why do you set out your paragraphs like that? I must say it's a bit annoying and is a waste of space.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 03:10:38 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 03:10:38 PM
Because I'm typing
on mobile.
DWI.
There's no inference
of any Weyland bloodline.
No evidence whatsoever.
In fact there's more
evidence to the contrary.
Charles Bishop Weyland
discusses his legacy,
all throughout AVP 2004
it's the driving force behind
what he's doing.
Everything he's doing.
Yet he never once mentions
offspring, even as Lex
brings up her
Father & Daughter story.
on mobile.
DWI.
There's no inference
of any Weyland bloodline.
No evidence whatsoever.
In fact there's more
evidence to the contrary.
Charles Bishop Weyland
discusses his legacy,
all throughout AVP 2004
it's the driving force behind
what he's doing.
Everything he's doing.
Yet he never once mentions
offspring, even as Lex
brings up her
Father & Daughter story.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 03:13:58 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 03:13:58 PM
I roll with the movies and only with the movies when discussing canon. It's how I roll. ;D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 03:19:47 PM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 03:19:47 PM
But we know that there is. There's Peter, Vickers and possibly Michael.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 03, 2019, 03:28:39 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 03, 2019, 03:28:39 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 03:10:38 PM
Yet he never once mentions
offspring, even as Lex
brings up her
Father & Daughter story.
Maybe he never knew, and the truth came to light after his death. ;D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 03:38:28 PM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 03:38:28 PM
Or maybe he had his reasons for not sharing. Who knows?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 04:30:52 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 04:30:52 PM
Grasping at straws, there's no evidence.
& There's evidence to the contrary.
& There's evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 03, 2019, 04:46:56 PM
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 03, 2019, 04:46:56 PM
Yep
Also if david created the xenos then AvP cannot be in the same universe.
Also if david created the xenos then AvP cannot be in the same universe.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 04:49:22 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 04:49:22 PM
But the Mural... ;D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 04:51:52 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 04:51:52 PM
The Neomorph/Deacon Mural.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 03, 2019, 04:53:53 PM
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 03, 2019, 04:53:53 PM
Voodoo, I think...
...this is solely based on your desire to have them connected.
...this is solely based on your desire to have them connected.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 05:01:40 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 05:01:40 PM
I think he's being a little facetious.
Just a feeling. lol
Just a feeling. lol
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 05:06:38 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 05:06:38 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 05:01:40 PM
I think he's being a little facetious.
Just a feeling. lol
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! She nailed it.
You so get me Old One! ;D
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 03, 2019, 04:46:56 PM
Also if david created the xenos then AvP cannot be in the same universe.
In all seriousness, I see this only as a retcon, versus it never was (the same universe).
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 03, 2019, 05:20:37 PM
Post by: 426Buddy on Jan 03, 2019, 05:20:37 PM
It may have been intended to be the same universe at one point, but regardless, right now they are not.
Retcon or otherwise.
Retcon or otherwise.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 05:28:43 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 05:28:43 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 03, 2019, 05:20:37 PM
It may have been intended to be the same universe at one point, but regardless, right now they are not.
Retcon or otherwise.
I can agree with that in an official capacity. Cheers!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 08:32:04 PM
Post by: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 08:32:04 PM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 01:13:13 PM
Who says?
When considering AVP do they not all fall under the same banner?
The people I work with at Fox says.
AvP is it's own seperate unconnected license.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 08:49:20 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 08:49:20 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 08:32:04 PMQuote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 01:13:13 PM
Who says?
When considering AVP do they not all fall under the same banner?
The people I work with at Fox says.
AvP is it's own seperate unconnected license.
That is a very silly arguement my brother. Sorry, but I had to say it.
Avengers was a separate license. So was Batman V Superman. It doesn't mean Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk, Thor, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman participated in events removed from their individual film universe.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jan 03, 2019, 09:53:03 PM
Post by: SiL on Jan 03, 2019, 09:53:03 PM
What you just said is silly. Those were treated as connected by the respective studios. AvP isn't.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 10:23:43 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 10:23:43 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jan 03, 2019, 09:53:03 PM
What you just said is silly. Those were treated as connected by the respective studios. AvP isn't.
Why, because you say it so? Offering no discernible proof and throwing it back towards me is the equivalent to saying "No, he's not silly. You're silly!"
Look at Charles Bishop Weyland played by Lance Henriksen.
(https://i.redd.it/nqdwowfv66zz.gif)
You can argue it's no longer connected, because it's been retconned out, because Ridley Scott hated the AvP movies, but it was certainly connected at one time. There was no imaginary crawl in 2004 for AVP movie-going audiences stating "Meanwhile.. in an alternate universe." Anything else is just ignoring what's reasonable and logically obvious.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: JokersWarPig on Jan 03, 2019, 10:31:00 PM
Post by: JokersWarPig on Jan 03, 2019, 10:31:00 PM
With the mess that is the cannon it'd be hard to really argue they are or aren't connected. We have Ridley's (stupid) decision to thank for that.
Hell, Dark Horses EU cannon makes more sense right now.
Hell, Dark Horses EU cannon makes more sense right now.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 10:36:53 PM
Post by: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 10:36:53 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 10:23:43 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 03, 2019, 09:53:03 PM
What you just said is silly. Those were treated as connected by the respective studios. AvP isn't.
Why, because you say it so? Offering no discernible proof and throwing it back towards me is the equivalent to saying "No, he's not silly. You're silly!"
Look at Charles Bishop Weyland played by Lance Henriksen.
(https://i.redd.it/nqdwowfv66zz.gif)
You can argue it's no longer connected, because it's been retconned out, because Ridley Scott hated the AvP movies, but it was certainly connected at one time. There was no imaginary crawl in 2004 for AVP movie-going audiences stating "Meanwhile.. in an alternate universe." Anything else is just ignoring what's reasonable and logically obvious.
I would strongly suggest, lest you look even more foolish, that you look up the word "currently".
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 10:41:44 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 10:41:44 PM
The proof that they're separate is there,
but people will argue for AVP's inclusion regardless.
When Peter Weyland's father
is revealed to be Montgomery Weyland,
some f**ker will argue it's Charles' pseudonym
or that he's Charles' brother.
There's no winning this argument,
no matter how logically constructed.
but people will argue for AVP's inclusion regardless.
When Peter Weyland's father
is revealed to be Montgomery Weyland,
some f**ker will argue it's Charles' pseudonym
or that he's Charles' brother.
There's no winning this argument,
no matter how logically constructed.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jan 03, 2019, 10:45:12 PM
Post by: SiL on Jan 03, 2019, 10:45:12 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 10:23:43 PMBecause a person who works with Fox's licensing folks is explaining to you that the company does not currently see them as connected.
Why, because you say it so?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 10:54:52 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 10:54:52 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 10:36:53 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 10:23:43 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 03, 2019, 09:53:03 PM
What you just said is silly. Those were treated as connected by the respective studios. AvP isn't.
Why, because you say it so? Offering no discernible proof and throwing it back towards me is the equivalent to saying "No, he's not silly. You're silly!"
Look at Charles Bishop Weyland played by Lance Henriksen.
(https://i.redd.it/nqdwowfv66zz.gif)
You can argue it's no longer connected, because it's been retconned out, because Ridley Scott hated the AvP movies, but it was certainly connected at one time. There was no imaginary crawl in 2004 for AVP movie-going audiences stating "Meanwhile.. in an alternate universe." Anything else is just ignoring what's reasonable and logically obvious.
I would strongly suggest, lest you look even more foolish, that you look up the word "currently".
You lost me. I can't find the word "currently" in your separate license post above or in Sil's retort. But if you are suggesting officially Alien and AVP are not currently official canon, as in not anymore, than I would agree with you my friend.
And no need to use harsh words like "foolish". Especially when I'm trying to keep things light with "silly". :)
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 03, 2019, 10:41:44 PM
The proof that they're separate is there,
but people will argue for AVP's inclusion regardless.
There was no proof to be had in 2004, even if the vast narrative logic isn't 100% cohesive, which often happens in prequels and sequels. ;D
Quote from: SiL on Jan 03, 2019, 10:45:12 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 10:23:43 PMBecause a person who works with Fox's licensing folks is explaining to you that the company does not currently see them as connected.
Why, because you say it so?
Currently, I would definitely agree!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jan 03, 2019, 10:57:33 PM
Post by: SiL on Jan 03, 2019, 10:57:33 PM
Then why the attitude to begin with ???
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 11:05:23 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 11:05:23 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jan 03, 2019, 10:57:33 PM
Then why the attitude to begin with ???
There was no attitude intended. Can you show me where? Are you suggesting my delivery is different from yours in some David-created-the-Xenomorph debates?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 11:06:04 PM
Post by: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 11:06:04 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 01:02:53 PM
Alien is currently a seperate entity to Predator and AvP. The different canons are just that - different.
Emphasis added.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 11:18:00 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 11:18:00 PM
Quote from: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 11:06:04 PMQuote from: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 01:02:53 PM
Alien is currently a seperate entity to Predator and AvP. The different canons are just that - different.
Emphasis added.
Ah. I see that on page 14 and definitely missed that word. Well I do apologize for missing that.
I think it will definitely be helpful to keep throwing that "currently" word in there in later commentary! As you can see without it, that statement can mean something entirely different. :)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 02:15:04 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 02:15:04 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 08:32:04 PMQuote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 03, 2019, 01:13:13 PM
Who says?
When considering AVP do they not all fall under the same banner?
The people I work with at Fox says.
AvP is it's own seperate unconnected license.
Nice. Well tell them to get their shit together because they're f**king up some great sci-fi licenses and no-one really knows what is going on anymore. It's a bit up in the air I'd say at the moment until Fox states something to the public or makes it clear in an upcoming film.
Also license is different from canon/lore no? I agree that Aliens, Predator and AVP, heck even Prometheus are different licenses. But can/do they fit under the same fictional universe? Maybe.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 02:21:53 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 02:21:53 AM
Not right now.
'Cept Alien and Prometheus.
And the Alien franchise has a lot of stuff planned for this year; the film division is a teensy bit tied up with the biggest media buyout in history. Cut 'em a bit of slack, eh?
'Cept Alien and Prometheus.
And the Alien franchise has a lot of stuff planned for this year; the film division is a teensy bit tied up with the biggest media buyout in history. Cut 'em a bit of slack, eh?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 02:46:59 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 02:46:59 AM
You can't be surprised that I find it hard to take your word for it but I do thank you for your 'insider knowledge'.
Yes I am keen, this year seems to be shaping up nicely for the eu of the Alien franchise.
I'm not going to cut one of the "Big Six" major American film studio corporations a bit of slack. They truly need to pick up their game. I really do hope this buyout is for the best.
Yes I am keen, this year seems to be shaping up nicely for the eu of the Alien franchise.
I'm not going to cut one of the "Big Six" major American film studio corporations a bit of slack. They truly need to pick up their game. I really do hope this buyout is for the best.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 03:19:28 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 03:19:28 AM
Then I got nothing.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 03:22:06 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 03:22:06 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 02:46:59 AM
You can't be surprised that I find it hard to take your word for it but I do thank you for your 'insider knowledge'.
Totally, 100% unrelated to this, it sure is hard to believe any insider knowlege claimed in fandom communities. For every person who might be telling the truth, there's ten people who aren't, and I'm probably being very generous with those numbers. Regardless, it's an interesting phenomena why this occurs, as well as the reasons behind it. :-\
QuoteI'm not going to cut one of the "Big Six" major American film studio corporations a bit of slack. They truly need to pick up their game. I really do hope this buyout is for the best.
Hear! Hear!
Who knows, in 2019 we may get a new retcon "Alien 3" in the vein of Halloween and Terminator, and then there will be a newer, new official canon! :P
For now, I say stick with the canon you love. It might not be official anymore, but it still can be the "it" lore to you! ;D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 03:46:41 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 03:46:41 AM
Even if an alternate Alien 3 film was to come out in the near future I wouldn't consider one timeline 'more canon' than the other. Of course the original quadrilogy will forever be the og main timeline. But I'd just view the new timeline as exactly that - an alternate timeline. Just as I view William Gibson's Alien 3 now that it is having an official release.
There seems to be so many arguments in threads unrelated to the idea of canon about what is/is not canon & why canon does/does not matter. I am guilty of partaking in these arguments. But seriously when people are talking about lore or what could be possible in these fictional universes there always seems to be others who have to call them out on what is and is not canon. And it just completely stagnates the discussion at hand. And why? To what end???
I know this thread is about Alien and AVP canon but people seem to get so worked up on both sides. Just chill and let people enjoy what they enjoy. I know you think you're right but there's no need to belittle other people with different opinions.
There seems to be so many arguments in threads unrelated to the idea of canon about what is/is not canon & why canon does/does not matter. I am guilty of partaking in these arguments. But seriously when people are talking about lore or what could be possible in these fictional universes there always seems to be others who have to call them out on what is and is not canon. And it just completely stagnates the discussion at hand. And why? To what end???
I know this thread is about Alien and AVP canon but people seem to get so worked up on both sides. Just chill and let people enjoy what they enjoy. I know you think you're right but there's no need to belittle other people with different opinions.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 04:03:29 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 04:03:29 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 03:46:41 AM
I know this thread is about Alien and AVP canon but people seem to get so worked up on both sides. Just chill and let people enjoy what they enjoy. I know you think you're right but there's no need to belittle other people with different opinions.
Well said. A lesson for us all.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/NEvPzZ8bd1V4Y/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c2edad1707237312e54cbbc)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 04, 2019, 04:25:45 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 04, 2019, 04:25:45 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 03:46:41 AM
Even if an alternate Alien 3 film was to come out in the near future I wouldn't consider one timeline 'more canon' than the other. Of course the original quadrilogy will forever be the og main timeline. But I'd just view the new timeline as exactly that - an alternate timeline. Just as I view William Gibson's Alien 3 now that it is having an official release.
There seems to be so many arguments in threads unrelated to the idea of canon about what is/is not canon & why canon does/does not matter. I am guilty of partaking in these arguments. But seriously when people are talking about lore or what could be possible in these fictional universes there always seems to be others who have to call them out on what is and is not canon. And it just completely stagnates the discussion at hand. And why? To what end???
I know this thread is about Alien and AVP canon but people seem to get so worked up on both sides. Just chill and let people enjoy what they enjoy. I know you think you're right but there's no need to belittle other people with different opinions.
(https://i.imgur.com/tXlYVwd.jpg)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 04:03:29 AMQuote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 03:46:41 AM
I know this thread is about Alien and AVP canon but people seem to get so worked up on both sides. Just chill and let people enjoy what they enjoy. I know you think you're right but there's no need to belittle other people with different opinions.
Well said. A lesson for us all.
https://media3.giphy.com/media/NEvPzZ8bd1V4Y/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c2edad1707237312e54cbbc
(https://i.imgur.com/TMHefzg.png)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 04:53:34 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 04:53:34 AM
QuoteI know this thread is about Alien and AVP canon but people seem to get so worked up on both sides. Just chill and let people enjoy what they enjoy. I know you think you're right but there's no need to belittle other people with different opinions.
When do people get belittled for enjoying what they enjoy?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 04:54:34 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 04:54:34 AM
SM's been around the block,
he has a credit in the W-Y Report,
his timeline's on point
and so is his galaxy map.
I doubt he'd lie about
insider information.
he has a credit in the W-Y Report,
his timeline's on point
and so is his galaxy map.
I doubt he'd lie about
insider information.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 04:56:07 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 04:56:07 AM
Nah I think they rumbled me.
I don't know how my ego will survive.
I don't know how my ego will survive.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 04:58:18 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 04:58:18 AM
Rumbled you?
Strayan vernacular,
must be.
Strayan vernacular,
must be.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 04:59:49 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 04:59:49 AM
More British I think.
'Sprung' (found out) is more Strayan.
'Sprung' (found out) is more Strayan.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 05:26:40 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 05:26:40 AM
I said belittled for different opinions.
Also I've agreed that the Aliens, Predator and AVP titles are different licenses. But until it is stated otherwise to the public, no single one of these can be seen as the 'main canon'. AVP is an existing crossover of both license and canon. Which contains both Aliens and Predator. When people are talking about AVP there's not much point in saying Aliens doesn't include AVP in it's canon.
You ignored my question also - license is different from canon/lore right?
Also I've agreed that the Aliens, Predator and AVP titles are different licenses. But until it is stated otherwise to the public, no single one of these can be seen as the 'main canon'. AVP is an existing crossover of both license and canon. Which contains both Aliens and Predator. When people are talking about AVP there's not much point in saying Aliens doesn't include AVP in it's canon.
You ignored my question also - license is different from canon/lore right?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 05:29:22 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 05:29:22 AM
Technically. The license covers everything for a property - whether it's considered canon or not.
You've ignored my question - When do people get belittled for enjoying what they enjoy - ie. their opinions?
You've ignored my question - When do people get belittled for enjoying what they enjoy - ie. their opinions?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 05:33:13 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 05:33:13 AM
You and Voodoo Magic towards each other in this very thread could be an example.
Man I told myself I wouldn't participate in these canon arguments anymore but every time I want to discuss in-universe things it seems to be brought up.
Man I told myself I wouldn't participate in these canon arguments anymore but every time I want to discuss in-universe things it seems to be brought up.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 05:38:04 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 05:38:04 AM
I don't recall any examples of me belittling his opinions. Nor him belittling mine to be honest.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 05:41:02 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 05:41:02 AM
If I really wanted to I could quote a few posts but instead I am opting out of this conversation.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Jan 04, 2019, 05:48:55 AM
Post by: Huggs on Jan 04, 2019, 05:48:55 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 05:33:13 AM
You and Voodoo Magic towards each other in this very thread could be an example.
Man I told myself I wouldn't participate in these canon arguments anymore but every time I want to discuss in-universe things it seems to be brought up.
Sometimes I feel that with these franchises in particular, the original films are of such high quality in so many ways. Such amazing things have been seen and implied. To deviate from the formula and to attempt to undue what many fans have found important about the films is not going to be warmly embraced by certain people. I have a hard time accepting some things myself. I've just tried to appreciate the prequels for what they are. But I do hope that we can someday get back to seeing new alien movies that are well received by all.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jan 04, 2019, 05:57:55 AM
Post by: SiL on Jan 04, 2019, 05:57:55 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 05:38:04 AMI think the "silly" and "foolish" quotes. But Voodoo was pretty clear he was trying to keep it lighthearted, not belittling, and you were hardly attacking the dude.
I don't recall any examples of me belittling his opinions. Nor him belittling mine to be honest.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 06:05:23 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 06:05:23 AM
I actually really like Prometheus and Covenant. I have a hard time accepting that the Space Jockey in the derelict is an Engineer in a suit and that David is the sole creator of the Xenomorph. I do like the Engineers and I can appreciate the gothic Frankensteinian aspects and themes of David being the creator. But I still have hope that this will either be left ambiguous or explained with a re-introduction of the Space Jockeys/Derelict as a species above the Engineers. It would also make a lot of sense storytelling-wise to have David realise that he too is a false God, in my opinion. This would be a true defeat for David.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 06:07:28 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 06:07:28 AM
Quote from: SiL on Jan 04, 2019, 05:57:55 AMQuote from: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 05:38:04 AMI think the "silly" and "foolish" quotes. But Voodoo was pretty clear he was trying to keep it lighthearted, not belittling, and you were hardly attacking the dude.
I don't recall any examples of me belittling his opinions. Nor him belittling mine to be honest.
Quite.
I didn't belittle or mock him over his opinions, nor would I.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 06:15:46 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 06:15:46 AM
Okay just to clarify I was talking about other threads as well but this one was not too far off at some points.
But back to the topic at hand I'd say! :-*
But back to the topic at hand I'd say! :-*
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 04, 2019, 06:33:19 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 04, 2019, 06:33:19 AM
God's little ángels
(https://i.imgur.com/tWV9sIY.gif)
But seriously, the Alien fans are much less toxic than other fans arround the internet (like Star Wars / Rick and Morty fans, yuck!)
(https://i.imgur.com/tWV9sIY.gif)
But seriously, the Alien fans are much less toxic than other fans arround the internet (like Star Wars / Rick and Morty fans, yuck!)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 01:53:57 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 01:53:57 PM
@Immortan Jonesy - :laugh:
Contraire mon frère, it wasn't "they" kind sir. You and I, then SiL were talking around, about and through what you found out about licensing prior to Frosty chiming in, and I never honestly once raised doubt in its legitimacy of your Fox friends.
But when Frosty did, in a very polite way I must say, in a general sense I could understand why anyone would doubt any claims of insider access made by anybody in a fan community, because for every true insider, there are ten fake ones. So I get it, that's all.
I've seen what you're talking about. Not on this thread, but I've seen it. I've been told I have "bad taste". Watched someone get mocked for liking AVPR. Seen names like "prick" thrown back and forth over movie logic. It would be nice to elimate such things.
Sometimes a debate gets heated, but that's an entirely different animal in my opinion. When two people feel so strongly in their oposing views, they communicate forcefully, and that can sometimes be perceived as angry, aggressive behavior to outsiders looking in, and sometimes even to a party involved.
Culture probably comes into play. I was partially raised in an Italian American household as a teenager and everyone was literally raising their voices all the time, yelling at each other. It often would really stress me out, so much so I eventually complained why they were fighting all the time. And I was told "We're not fighting. We're yelling. We like to yell at each other. There's a difference." And what was once a culture shock, now I'm totally comfortable around it. :)
Ultimately, conversations in the written word are always going to be problematic anyway because it lacks inflection. Words can mean a multitude of things depending on one's cadence, and emojis can only help so much, as well as good intentions. Totally separate from this thread's context, I might think what someone typed in a forum is dumb, recognize that calling it dumb could be perceived as a hurtful word, replace dumb with something more friendly like silly, and still end up with the person I am having a conversation with take offense and think that mother f***** called me silly!
It's all just a tightrope to walk. ;D
100%
Hear! Hear!
Quote from: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 04:56:07 AM
Nah I think they rumbled me.
I don't know how my ego will survive.
Contraire mon frère, it wasn't "they" kind sir. You and I, then SiL were talking around, about and through what you found out about licensing prior to Frosty chiming in, and I never honestly once raised doubt in its legitimacy of your Fox friends.
But when Frosty did, in a very polite way I must say, in a general sense I could understand why anyone would doubt any claims of insider access made by anybody in a fan community, because for every true insider, there are ten fake ones. So I get it, that's all.
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 05:26:40 AM
I said belittled for different opinions.
I've seen what you're talking about. Not on this thread, but I've seen it. I've been told I have "bad taste". Watched someone get mocked for liking AVPR. Seen names like "prick" thrown back and forth over movie logic. It would be nice to elimate such things.
Sometimes a debate gets heated, but that's an entirely different animal in my opinion. When two people feel so strongly in their oposing views, they communicate forcefully, and that can sometimes be perceived as angry, aggressive behavior to outsiders looking in, and sometimes even to a party involved.
Culture probably comes into play. I was partially raised in an Italian American household as a teenager and everyone was literally raising their voices all the time, yelling at each other. It often would really stress me out, so much so I eventually complained why they were fighting all the time. And I was told "We're not fighting. We're yelling. We like to yell at each other. There's a difference." And what was once a culture shock, now I'm totally comfortable around it. :)
Ultimately, conversations in the written word are always going to be problematic anyway because it lacks inflection. Words can mean a multitude of things depending on one's cadence, and emojis can only help so much, as well as good intentions. Totally separate from this thread's context, I might think what someone typed in a forum is dumb, recognize that calling it dumb could be perceived as a hurtful word, replace dumb with something more friendly like silly, and still end up with the person I am having a conversation with take offense and think that mother f***** called me silly!
It's all just a tightrope to walk. ;D
Quotelicense is different from canon/lore right?
100%
Quote from: Huggs on Jan 04, 2019, 05:48:55 AM
But I do hope that we can someday get back to seeing new alien movies that are well received by all.
Hear! Hear!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 02:45:43 PM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 02:45:43 PM
You're right man, perhaps I overreacted a little back there. I guess it's a good that discussions get a little heated sometimes. Shows we're passionate about the franchise.
Alien fans are definitely a whole lot less toxic than Star Wars and perhaps even a lot of 40k fans. But there does seem to be a lot of people who think they know better about the franchise and try to use that to condescend others.
Alien fans are definitely a whole lot less toxic than Star Wars and perhaps even a lot of 40k fans. But there does seem to be a lot of people who think they know better about the franchise and try to use that to condescend others.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 03:15:04 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 03:15:04 PM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 02:45:43 PM
You're right man, perhaps I overreacted a little back there. I guess it's a good that discussions get a little heated sometimes. Shows we're passionate about the franchise.
Alien fans are definitely a whole lot less toxic than Star Wars and perhaps even a lot of 40k fans. But there does seem to be a lot of people who think they know better about the franchise and try to use that to condescend others.
Maybe Star Wars is more toxic because of the sheer magnitude of it, as in.. much more apples and therefore much more likely to have bad apples among them? Our franchises are such small fry compared to that behemoth! ;D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Kurgan on Jan 04, 2019, 06:16:58 PM
Post by: The Kurgan on Jan 04, 2019, 06:16:58 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 03:15:04 PMQuote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 02:45:43 PM
You're right man, perhaps I overreacted a little back there. I guess it's a good that discussions get a little heated sometimes. Shows we're passionate about the franchise.
Alien fans are definitely a whole lot less toxic than Star Wars and perhaps even a lot of 40k fans. But there does seem to be a lot of people who think they know better about the franchise and try to use that to condescend others.
Maybe Star Wars is more toxic because of the sheer magnitude of it, as in.. much more apples and therefore much more likely to have bad apples among them? Our franchises are such small fry compared to that behemoth! ;D
I think that's the reason. It is one of, if not the, most popular movie franchise on the planet.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 08:40:58 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 08:40:58 PM
As for Star Wars
it's frustration for me,
because certain EU stories-
blow away anything
we've seen onscreen since 1983.
And I say this as someone
whom enjoys Dave Filoni's
The Clone Wars &
even has a soft spot for TPM.
it's frustration for me,
because certain EU stories-
blow away anything
we've seen onscreen since 1983.
And I say this as someone
whom enjoys Dave Filoni's
The Clone Wars &
even has a soft spot for TPM.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 09:20:51 PM
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 09:20:51 PM
Star Wars was my first love prior to Alien, but I generally avoid the Star Wars thread here now. It's almost entirely repellant.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 09:42:25 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 09:42:25 PM
Well, I had a similar experience last year,
when anyone who didn't like TLJ was
looked upon with a condescending
"I'm better than you." Attitude from
those supporting Lucasfilm's creative
decisions (Star Wars Explained)
and even quite immaturely some
of those in the creative process.
I often find in regards to TLJ-
there's a helluva lotta people
don't even really understand
why they dislike the film.
And that's exhausting-
it's all in the writing,
it has piss-all to do with the
fact the protagonist is a girl
for instance.
when anyone who didn't like TLJ was
looked upon with a condescending
"I'm better than you." Attitude from
those supporting Lucasfilm's creative
decisions (Star Wars Explained)
and even quite immaturely some
of those in the creative process.
I often find in regards to TLJ-
there's a helluva lotta people
don't even really understand
why they dislike the film.
And that's exhausting-
it's all in the writing,
it has piss-all to do with the
fact the protagonist is a girl
for instance.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 04, 2019, 10:27:45 PM
Post by: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 04, 2019, 10:27:45 PM
A problem is that listing facts can be interpreted as angry and/or condescending.
Especially when someone doesn't like those facts because they're in conflict with his/her point of view on the situation. Or because they don't like the truth.
I don't mind being corrected when I'm wrong. I actually prefer it otherwise how am I gonna learn.
If it's not mean spirited I follow up with a "Thanks, I didn't know that."
Especially when someone doesn't like those facts because they're in conflict with his/her point of view on the situation. Or because they don't like the truth.
I don't mind being corrected when I'm wrong. I actually prefer it otherwise how am I gonna learn.
If it's not mean spirited I follow up with a "Thanks, I didn't know that."
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: D88M on Jan 04, 2019, 10:28:05 PM
Post by: D88M on Jan 04, 2019, 10:28:05 PM
AVP and AVPR were never, and never will be, canon, no matter what anyone thinks.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Jan 04, 2019, 10:29:57 PM
Post by: Huggs on Jan 04, 2019, 10:29:57 PM
Quote from: D88M on Jan 04, 2019, 10:28:05 PM
AVP and AVPR were never, and never will be, canon, no matter what anyone thinks.
Tell that to Shane Black.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 10:46:39 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 10:46:39 PM
Quote from: D88M on Jan 04, 2019, 10:28:05 PM
AVP and AVPR were never, and never will be, canon, no matter what anyone thinks.
He says with no proof at all. :P.
It was... until it was retconned by Ridley!
My proof is Lance Henrikson as Charles Bishop Weyland. Did your copy of AVP come with this "alternate universe" scrolling text everytime Lance Henrikson as Charles Bishop Weyland came on the screen? Mine sure didn't! ;D
(https://i.redd.it/nqdwowfv66zz.gif)
Warning! Warning! Please read! Read carefully! This is an alternate universe. This is not Earth. This planet is called Bearth. So even though you are watching Lance Henrikson as Charles Bishop Weyland, this all takes place on Bearth. Oh cool. He's doing the knife thing. That's pretty cool. This was an announcement.
*Edited because my friend The Old One realized I was drinking too much and couldn't get the name Charles Bishop Weyland straight!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 10:52:08 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 10:52:08 PM
Charles Bishop Weyland, dude. :D
It was always a silly idea, the idea that Bishop's likeness
came from the original Founder of Weyland Industries.
It was always a silly idea, the idea that Bishop's likeness
came from the original Founder of Weyland Industries.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Jan 04, 2019, 10:53:46 PM
Post by: Huggs on Jan 04, 2019, 10:53:46 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 10:52:08 PM
Charles Bishop Weyland, dude. :D
It was always a silly idea, the idea that Bishop's likeness
came from the original Founder of Weyland Industries.
Still not as bad as Sgt. Candy.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 10:58:28 PM
Post by: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 10:58:28 PM
Quote from: D88M on Jan 04, 2019, 10:28:05 PM
AVP and AVPR were never, and never will be, canon, no matter what anyone thinks.
They're canon to each other.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 10:59:55 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 10:59:55 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 10:52:08 PM
Charles Bishop Weyland, dude. :D
It was always a silly idea, the idea that Bishop's likeness
came from the original Founder of Weyland Industries.
What would my drunken self do without my homegirl Old One! You're the best!
Quote from: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 10:58:28 PMQuote from: D88M on Jan 04, 2019, 10:28:05 PM
AVP and AVPR were never, and never will be, canon, no matter what anyone thinks.
They're canon to each other.
Meaning you would like to use a cannon to them? :P
@Huggsy - Indeed!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 04, 2019, 11:07:17 PM
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 04, 2019, 11:07:17 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 10:59:55 PMQuote from: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 10:52:08 PM
Charles Bishop Weyland, dude. :D
It was always a silly idea, the idea that Bishop's likeness
came from the original Founder of Weyland Industries.
What would my drunken self do without my homegirl Old One! You're the best!
I'm not your homegirl? I stood up for Predator 2 for you!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 11:31:29 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 11:31:29 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 04, 2019, 11:07:17 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 10:59:55 PMQuote from: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 10:52:08 PM
Charles Bishop Weyland, dude. :D
It was always a silly idea, the idea that Bishop's likeness
came from the original Founder of Weyland Industries.
What would my drunken self do without my homegirl Old One! You're the best!
I'm not your homegirl? I stood up for Predator 2 for you!
Yes, and for that you're my Super Homegirl!!
And did you know there are perks that come with that title? Like if we are ever on the Titanic and it sinks, I will push Huggsy off a floating door to make room for you, so you can live!
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/14vXAPPJPZRzsA/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c2feba6706d4b71676c2816)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 04, 2019, 11:45:20 PM
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 04, 2019, 11:45:20 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 11:31:29 PMQuote from: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 04, 2019, 11:07:17 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 10:59:55 PMQuote from: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 10:52:08 PM
Charles Bishop Weyland, dude. :D
It was always a silly idea, the idea that Bishop's likeness
came from the original Founder of Weyland Industries.
What would my drunken self do without my homegirl Old One! You're the best!
I'm not your homegirl? I stood up for Predator 2 for you!
Yes, and for that you're my Super Homegirl!!
And did you know there are perks that come with that title? Like if we are ever on the Titanic and it sinks, I will push Huggsy off a floating door to make room for you, so you can live!
https://media1.giphy.com/media/14vXAPPJPZRzsA/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c2feba6706d4b71676c2816
Does that mean we leave Verm to freeze, too? You know having a bullshit detector is vital.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Jan 04, 2019, 11:52:13 PM
Post by: Huggs on Jan 04, 2019, 11:52:13 PM
I see. Well, that wouldn't be necessary Voodoo. If there was no avoiding the collision, I'd assist the guys below for as long as I could. Then I'd fashion a life raft out of some unruly fat women, and get Rabbit and Verm safely in a boat. Then I'd steal a revolver from Lightoller, and shoot holes in your door as I floated by.
Enjoy your Atlantic voyage, you traitor. ;D
Enjoy your Atlantic voyage, you traitor. ;D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 11:57:49 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 11:57:49 PM
Quote from: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 04, 2019, 11:45:20 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 11:31:29 PMQuote from: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 04, 2019, 11:07:17 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 10:59:55 PMQuote from: The Old One on Jan 04, 2019, 10:52:08 PM
Charles Bishop Weyland, dude. :D
It was always a silly idea, the idea that Bishop's likeness
came from the original Founder of Weyland Industries.
What would my drunken self do without my homegirl Old One! You're the best!
I'm not your homegirl? I stood up for Predator 2 for you!
Yes, and for that you're my Super Homegirl!!
And did you know there are perks that come with that title? Like if we are ever on the Titanic and it sinks, I will push Huggsy off a floating door to make room for you, so you can live!
https://media1.giphy.com/media/14vXAPPJPZRzsA/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c2feba6706d4b71676c2816
Does that mean we leave Verm to freeze, too? You know having a bullshit detector is vital.
Yes, Verm we need. That's why I always carry aquatic helium balloons, so Verm can float to safety.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/3eRAtiWiqNJOMjvCSO/200w.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c2ff2434f65376245bb1e4e)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 04, 2019, 11:58:54 PM
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 04, 2019, 11:58:54 PM
Quote from: Huggs on Jan 04, 2019, 11:52:13 PM
I see. Well, that wouldn't be necessary Voodoo. If there was no avoiding the collision, I'd assist the guys below for as long as I could. Then I'd fashion a life raft out of some unruly fat women, and get Rabbit and Verm safely in a boat. Then I'd steal a revolver from Lightoller, and shoot holes in your door as I floated by.
This would make a good movie.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Jan 05, 2019, 12:02:01 AM
Post by: Huggs on Jan 05, 2019, 12:02:01 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 11:57:49 PM
Yes, Verm we need. That's why I always carry aquatic helium balloons, so Verm can float to safety.
They have rockets onboard. We can get him to safety much faster than that.
Dammit man, use your head! This is no time to panic!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 05, 2019, 12:04:06 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 05, 2019, 12:04:06 AM
Quote from: Huggs on Jan 04, 2019, 11:52:13 PM
I see. Well, that wouldn't be necessary Voodoo. If there was no avoiding the collision, I'd assist the guys below for as long as I could. Then I'd fashion a life raft out of some unruly fat women, and get Rabbit and Verm safely in a boat. Then I'd steal a revolver from Lightoller, and shoot holes in your door as I floated by.
Enjoy your Atlantic voyage, you traitor. ;D
Wow that's so mean!!!
Just for that, I'm not going to hold you romantically in the front of the boat!
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/XOY5y7YXjTD7q/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c2feba6706d4b71676c2816)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Jan 05, 2019, 12:06:50 AM
Post by: Huggs on Jan 05, 2019, 12:06:50 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 05, 2019, 12:04:06 AMQuote from: Huggs on Jan 04, 2019, 11:52:13 PM
I see. Well, that wouldn't be necessary Voodoo. If there was no avoiding the collision, I'd assist the guys below for as long as I could. Then I'd fashion a life raft out of some unruly fat women, and get Rabbit and Verm safely in a boat. Then I'd steal a revolver from Lightoller, and shoot holes in your door as I floated by.
Enjoy your Atlantic voyage, you traitor. ;D
Wow that's so mean!!!
Just for that, I'm not going to hold you romantically in the front of the boat!
https://media3.giphy.com/media/XOY5y7YXjTD7q/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c2feba6706d4b71676c2816
No! The vista will make my a** look big!
Oh, you're not going to. Well fine. I'll just hold Verm over the side.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 05, 2019, 12:08:04 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 05, 2019, 12:08:04 AM
lol :laugh:
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 05, 2019, 12:08:52 AM
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 05, 2019, 12:08:52 AM
We need to start making this movie.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Jan 05, 2019, 12:34:32 AM
Post by: Huggs on Jan 05, 2019, 12:34:32 AM
We'd have to go Indie, and fully spoof it.
James Cameroon's Titanick.
"In their darkest hour, they couldn't see jack".
James Cameroon's Titanick.
"In their darkest hour, they couldn't see jack".
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 05, 2019, 01:34:06 AM
Post by: TheSailingRabbit on Jan 05, 2019, 01:34:06 AM
Directed by: Huggs
Starring: Rabbit, Voodoo, Vermillion, Huggs.
Props: Stuff we found in the dumpster, our action figures, and a stolen kiddie pool.
Music: Copyright-free songs off of YouTube.
We are not responsible for any drunken escapades of Voodoo and Verm.
Starring: Rabbit, Voodoo, Vermillion, Huggs.
Props: Stuff we found in the dumpster, our action figures, and a stolen kiddie pool.
Music: Copyright-free songs off of YouTube.
We are not responsible for any drunken escapades of Voodoo and Verm.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 05, 2019, 04:05:04 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 05, 2019, 04:05:04 AM
Hahahaha man that got out of hand really fast, what were you guys drinking.
Back to Charles Bishop Weyland I never saw it as inferring Bishop's likeness came from him. We already knew from Alien 3 that it came from Michael. What I thought it did infer was that Michael was a descendant of Charles.
Back to Charles Bishop Weyland I never saw it as inferring Bishop's likeness came from him. We already knew from Alien 3 that it came from Michael. What I thought it did infer was that Michael was a descendant of Charles.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 05, 2019, 05:09:10 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 05, 2019, 05:09:10 AM
& I HATE that idea.
Because that makes it a lineage battle, like Star Wars-
The Weyland family versus the Ripley family.
Like, c'mon really? Alien is better than that.
It's a grimy dirty, world of casuality. Not Destiny.
Destiny is a farce.
Because that makes it a lineage battle, like Star Wars-
The Weyland family versus the Ripley family.
Like, c'mon really? Alien is better than that.
It's a grimy dirty, world of casuality. Not Destiny.
Destiny is a farce.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 05, 2019, 09:09:05 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 05, 2019, 09:09:05 AM
Different surnames.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 05, 2019, 09:50:15 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 05, 2019, 09:50:15 AM
?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jan 05, 2019, 10:30:32 AM
Post by: SiL on Jan 05, 2019, 10:30:32 AM
Michael Bishop and Charles Bishop Weyland. Different surnames.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 05, 2019, 11:26:36 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 05, 2019, 11:26:36 AM
Meredith Vickers also has a different surname.
The daughter and only child of Peter Weyland.
The daughter and only child of Peter Weyland.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 05, 2019, 12:18:56 PM
Post by: SM on Jan 05, 2019, 12:18:56 PM
Probably very deliberate.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 05, 2019, 12:42:56 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 05, 2019, 12:42:56 PM
Or not.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 06, 2019, 01:00:48 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 06, 2019, 01:00:48 AM
Yes well she loves her old dad so much why wouldn't she take his name...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: David Weyland on Jan 06, 2019, 01:32:32 AM
Post by: David Weyland on Jan 06, 2019, 01:32:32 AM
I wonder what Meredith's mother's name was...maybe somebody will write a book about her romance with Peter Weyland and what happened in later life..bet he treated her like shit so she used David as her bit on the side in revenge, Weyland found out and as a test of loyalty ordered David to snap her neck
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Jan 06, 2019, 02:43:36 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jan 06, 2019, 02:43:36 AM
Quote from: SiL on Jan 02, 2019, 01:00:14 PMStrongly disagree - the link I provided literally lists off people inventing/discovering the same thing as other people, independent of other each other. :PQuote from: Xenomrph on Jan 02, 2019, 09:14:12 AMYou're really over-stretching this one to try to make a point. Multiple discovery doesn't usually result in people arriving at making exactly the same thing independently. There's usually some variation.Quote from: David's Creation on Dec 31, 2018, 01:24:05 PMThis is not uncommon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_discovery).
So ancient engineers and David both arrived at the same creature by coincidence?
And there is some variation in David's xenomorph, it doesn't look like the one from 'Alien' as an adult or an infant.
Quote from: SM on Jan 03, 2019, 01:02:53 PMAnd yet Fire & Stone/Life & Death reference the Alien movies and contain Predators and include titles like "Predator" and "AvP".
Alien is currently a seperate entity to Predator and AvP. The different canons are just that - different.
The point is that "canon" is a silly concept.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 03, 2019, 10:45:12 PMIs he speaking in an official capacity? ;)Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 03, 2019, 10:23:43 PMBecause a person who works with Fox's licensing folks is explaining to you that the company does not currently see them as connected.
Why, because you say it so?
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 04, 2019, 04:03:29 AMHell yeah, I'm all about this place being more of a "laid back exchange of ideas" place and not a "fans at each others' throats over minor things" place.Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 03:46:41 AM
I know this thread is about Alien and AVP canon but people seem to get so worked up on both sides. Just chill and let people enjoy what they enjoy. I know you think you're right but there's no need to belittle other people with different opinions.
Well said. A lesson for us all.
https://media3.giphy.com/media/NEvPzZ8bd1V4Y/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5c2edad1707237312e54cbbc
Quote from: SM on Jan 04, 2019, 04:53:34 AMPeople get defensive when the phrase "not canon" gets thrown around, because it implies that what they like "isn't true", and that that's a bad thing. I mean, why else is that phrase thrown around?QuoteI know this thread is about Alien and AVP canon but people seem to get so worked up on both sides. Just chill and let people enjoy what they enjoy. I know you think you're right but there's no need to belittle other people with different opinions.
When do people get belittled for enjoying what they enjoy?
Quote from: Huggs on Jan 04, 2019, 05:48:55 AMI think it's a multi-part problem. You've got a legacy behind the franchise that dates back 40 years, with the starting film being genre-defining and beloved for multiple reasons. So you've got a ton of baggage and expectations for long-time fans, expectations that are potentially unrealistic because there's 40 years of rose-colored glasses, contemplation, discussion, and dissection behind it.Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 04, 2019, 05:33:13 AM
You and Voodoo Magic towards each other in this very thread could be an example.
Man I told myself I wouldn't participate in these canon arguments anymore but every time I want to discuss in-universe things it seems to be brought up.
Sometimes I feel that with these franchises in particular, the original films are of such high quality in so many ways. Such amazing things have been seen and implied. To deviate from the formula and to attempt to undue what many fans have found important about the films is not going to be warmly embraced by certain people. I have a hard time accepting some things myself. I've just tried to appreciate the prequels for what they are. But I do hope that we can someday get back to seeing new alien movies that are well received by all.
Then you've got sequels that were made many years apart, by different filmmakers, and with very different plots, tones, and styles, so it can be hard to nail down what a "true" or "good" Alien movie is because that can differ for a lot of people. This ties back to the first point because you're aiming for a moving target with an ill-defined audience, so the movie could be poorly received *at release* only for more people to warm to it on its own merits later on (see: 'Alien3').
Compare that to, say, the recent 'Halloween' sequel. All of the Halloween movies are basically the same formula (minus the third one) so your target audience is a known quantity, so what matters is making a well-made, well-written, well-acted movie that follows that formula. The recent sequel did exactly that, and fans and critics loved it.
"Alien 5: The Aliening" could be well-written, well-acted, and well-directed and you'd still end up with detractors saying "it's a good movie, but it's not a good Alien movie" for any multitude of reasons based on how it turns out. Maybe it's got too much action, maybe it doesn't have enough? Maybe it's got crazy body-horror, but it doesn't feature typical Alien movie body horror staples so it feels "too different"? There's a shitload that can go wrong and it's not really the filmmakers fault.
Heck, I feel similarly about 'Prometheus' - I feel it's a good movie, but it's a bad Alien prequel. There's a lot of cool ideas in there and I wish they were explored further and more creatively, but the movie hamstrings itself by being shackled to the Alien franchise. If the film was totally divorced from 'Alien' and Ridley Scott had been let off the chain to make a totally f**king crazy "Chariots of the Gods, but horrifying" movie, we could have ended up with something truly special and unique.
Quote from: D88M on Jan 04, 2019, 10:28:05 PMYeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
AVP and AVPR were never, and never will be, canon, no matter what anyone thinks.
And this is what I was talking about above.
I mean, unless this post wasn't being serious in which case, nevermind. :P
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 05, 2019, 04:05:04 AMI took it that they just had an uncanny resemblance, like William Hudson and Jerry Lambert.
Hahahaha man that got out of hand really fast, what were you guys drinking.
Back to Charles Bishop Weyland I never saw it as inferring Bishop's likeness came from him. We already knew from Alien 3 that it came from Michael. What I thought it did infer was that Michael was a descendant of Charles.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 06, 2019, 02:55:12 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 06, 2019, 02:55:12 AM
I agree, mostly.
Prometheus wouldn't be any better if it was detached from Alien.
That's inference that the problem isn't the script, it is.
Prometheus wouldn't be any better if it was detached from Alien.
That's inference that the problem isn't the script, it is.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 06, 2019, 04:48:48 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 06, 2019, 04:48:48 AM
Indeed Vickers may have changed her last name in spite of her Father. Or perhaps she married and took the surname of her husband. Either way if the Weyland bloodline was to continue it would have to be with a different surname. So when people use Michael Bishop's surname as an argument against him being a Weyland I'll say that. There's also the generation between Vickers and Michael that we'd have no idea about and would be prone to another possible surname change.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Jan 06, 2019, 05:01:29 AM
Post by: Huggs on Jan 06, 2019, 05:01:29 AM
I think these movies were supposed to feature the one and only Mr. Weyland.
AVP - "hey looks it's weyland himself! See, just like the company from the Alien franchise. Cool, eh?"
Prometheus - "This is the force behind the company, the one and only Peter Weyland. At long last, here he is".
I'd rather not see a big bloodline battle start up in this franchise, where everything has to link together. We saw Weyland at different times and under different circumstances because the movies were different.
AVP - "hey looks it's weyland himself! See, just like the company from the Alien franchise. Cool, eh?"
Prometheus - "This is the force behind the company, the one and only Peter Weyland. At long last, here he is".
I'd rather not see a big bloodline battle start up in this franchise, where everything has to link together. We saw Weyland at different times and under different circumstances because the movies were different.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 06, 2019, 05:13:00 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 06, 2019, 05:13:00 AM
Agreed Huggs,
to quote myself;
to quote myself;
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 05, 2019, 05:09:10 AM
& I HATE that idea.
Because that makes it a lineage battle, like Star Wars-
The Weyland family versus the Ripley family.
Like, c'mon really? Alien is better than that.
It's a grimy dirty, world of casuality. Not Destiny.
Destiny is a farce.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 06, 2019, 06:01:52 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 06, 2019, 06:01:52 AM
It wouldn't really be a big bloodline battle. I see how it could look like that with Amanda becoming quite poignant in the series but it makes sense and would be cool in my opinion for there to be a bloodline of Weylands. A secret society of 'royalty' within the company.
Yes both Ripleys go against company orders and fight to keep them from obtaining a Xenomorph specimen but the only time a Ripley and Weyland bloodline member would actually meet face to face would be the end of Alien 3, right before Ripley's sacrifice. When Special Order 937 was made Vickers' child would be the current bloodline member in power. Amanda would have been 15 when Michael was born. So during Amanda's story Vickers' child would still be the main bloodline member making them also somewhat responsible for the Special Order 939. Michael would be getting trained from a young age to take over or fill a different role. By the time Ripley is out of cryo Amanda is dead and Michael would be the Weyland bloodline member in power. He would also be the last and after his death would be replaced by Karl Bishop Weyland, an android endowed with the memories of previous 'Weylands' from Charles through to Michael. It's not destiny. W-Y seeks specimens. Ripley (and her daughter) is just one person out of many in the universe to try and stop this from happening.
This is pure speculative fan theory so please don't come at me with "you have no proof and this is non-canon".
Yes both Ripleys go against company orders and fight to keep them from obtaining a Xenomorph specimen but the only time a Ripley and Weyland bloodline member would actually meet face to face would be the end of Alien 3, right before Ripley's sacrifice. When Special Order 937 was made Vickers' child would be the current bloodline member in power. Amanda would have been 15 when Michael was born. So during Amanda's story Vickers' child would still be the main bloodline member making them also somewhat responsible for the Special Order 939. Michael would be getting trained from a young age to take over or fill a different role. By the time Ripley is out of cryo Amanda is dead and Michael would be the Weyland bloodline member in power. He would also be the last and after his death would be replaced by Karl Bishop Weyland, an android endowed with the memories of previous 'Weylands' from Charles through to Michael. It's not destiny. W-Y seeks specimens. Ripley (and her daughter) is just one person out of many in the universe to try and stop this from happening.
This is pure speculative fan theory so please don't come at me with "you have no proof and this is non-canon".
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Jan 06, 2019, 06:19:46 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jan 06, 2019, 06:19:46 AM
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 06, 2019, 02:55:12 AMWhat do you mean?
I agree, mostly.
Prometheus wouldn't be any better if it was detached from Alien.
That's inference that the problem isn't the script, it is.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 06, 2019, 06:30:01 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 06, 2019, 06:30:01 AM
Prometheus' being disconnected from Alien
wouldn't solve Prometheus' core problems.
wouldn't solve Prometheus' core problems.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Jan 06, 2019, 09:39:38 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jan 06, 2019, 09:39:38 AM
Ohh okay, I was having trouble parsing the last sentence of the bit I quoted, thank you for the clarification. :)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 06, 2019, 04:23:24 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 06, 2019, 04:23:24 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 06, 2019, 02:43:36 AM
I think it's a multi-part problem. You've got a legacy behind the franchise that dates back 40 years, with the starting film being genre-defining and beloved for multiple reasons. So you've got a ton of baggage and expectations for long-time fans, expectations that are potentially unrealistic because there's 40 years of rose-colored glasses, contemplation, discussion, and dissection behind it.
Then you've got sequels that were made many years apart, by different filmmakers, and with very different plots, tones, and styles, so it can be hard to nail down what a "true" or "good" Alien movie is because that can differ for a lot of people. This ties back to the first point because you're aiming for a moving target with an ill-defined audience, so the movie could be poorly received *at release* only for more people to warm to it on its own merits later on (see: 'Alien3').
This was well said.
QuoteHeck, I feel similarly about 'Prometheus' - I feel it's a good movie, but it's a bad Alien prequel.
I similarly feel the exact same way.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 06, 2019, 02:43:36 AMQuote from: D88M on Jan 04, 2019, 10:28:05 PMYeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
AVP and AVPR were never, and never will be, canon, no matter what anyone thinks.
This is just such a silly, in my opinion intellectual dishonest position to take. In 2004, the makers of AVP didn't sit down and say let's make a movie that exists in the Alien universe, but it will take place in an alternate reality. There was only one reality. Paul Anderson even called it a "prequel" to Alien. AVP was indeed canon at one time.
This is just another example of fans wanting to create an alternate logic because they didn't like the result. Talk about alternate realities. Dislike reality, but please don't deny it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Samhain13 on Jan 06, 2019, 06:27:01 PM
Post by: Samhain13 on Jan 06, 2019, 06:27:01 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 06, 2019, 04:23:24 PM
This is just such a silly, in my opinion intellectual dishonest position to take. In 2004, the makers of AVP didn't sit down and say let's make a movie that exists in the Alien universe, but it will take place in an alternate reality. There was only one reality. Paul Anderson even called it a "prequel" to Alien. AVP was indeed canon at one time.
This is just another example of fans wanting to create an alternate logic because they didn't like the result. Talk about alternate realities. Dislike reality, but please don't deny it.
I think Colin stated on these forums that his movie was intended to be canon. The avp movies were prequels to the alien movies, that was the idea at the time.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 06, 2019, 06:49:07 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 06, 2019, 06:49:07 PM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Jan 06, 2019, 06:27:01 PM
I think Colin stated on these forums that his movie was intended to be canon. The avp movies were prequels to the alien movies, that was the idea at the time.
Yep, of course it was. Ridley Scott retconned it because he hated them? Fine. But it was canon at one time.
Here's an excerpt of "AVP" Director Paul Anderson from a 2003 interview:
- "The movie is designed to be a sequel to the Predator movies and a prequel to the Alien movies. In no way does it contradict or go against anything in the Alien franchise. We've been very careful about that. It's set present day and on earth, so it's like 150 years before Sigourney Weaver's out in space. It really makes sense. When you see this movie and then those movies, well I understand why she was completely ignorant of the existence of Aliens, but the Weyland-Yutani people did have an awareness of them. In that respect, there is a mythology to it (and there is a lot of mythology in the movie), but it is more related to Earth history rather than the history of Aliens and Predators. I'm not trying to explain away their genesis or anything like that. The idea is very much inspired by something Ron Cobb did for the very first Alien movie. I don't know if any of you have the original Alien book (which was done ages ago), but it had some original artwork from Alien for the pyramid that was never built ... Ron Cobb did some really cool designs, which were hieroglyphics showing the eggs &#Array; and that was very much an inspiration for this movie. It was a strand of Alien mythology that existed already but that never made it in Ridley Scott's movie."
https://m.ign.com/articles/2003/12/17/interview-with-avp-director-paul-anderson?page=2
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 06, 2019, 07:07:44 PM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 06, 2019, 07:07:44 PM
The Predator does seem to make AVP 'canon' with Lex's Xenomorph tail spear being in the foreground for a fairly important part of Bracket's and the audience's introduction to the lab.
Whether you like this movie or not, it is the latest addition to the franchise.
Whether you like this movie or not, it is the latest addition to the franchise.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 06, 2019, 09:32:08 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 06, 2019, 09:32:08 PM
TBH it just means that "The Predator" is directly tied to the AVP films in a way;
Predator, Predator 2, Predators and The Alien Anthology isn't.
It literally has shit from AVP 2004 in it that none of the others do.
Predator, Predator 2, Predators and The Alien Anthology isn't.
It literally has shit from AVP 2004 in it that none of the others do.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Jan 07, 2019, 03:36:56 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jan 07, 2019, 03:36:56 AM
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 06, 2019, 09:32:08 PMMaybe not the Alien Anthology, but the first two Predator movies get referenced in 'The Predator', so they arguably are via 'The Predator'.
TBH it just means that "The Predator" is directly tied to the AVP films in a way;
Predator, Predator 2, Predators and The Alien Anthology isn't.
Otherwise that's kinda like saying 'Alien Resurrection' isn't related to 'Alien' - the 4th film genuinely doesn't reference the first film in any way, although it does reference the second and third directly.
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 06, 2019, 09:32:08 PMWell of course 'Predator' and 'Predator 2' don't have stuff from 'AvP', they came out (and are set) earlier. :P
It literally has shit from AVP 2004 in it that none of the others do.
And 'Predators' doesn't have 'AvP' stuff because it's on another planet, so how could it reference 'AvP'?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jan 07, 2019, 03:38:43 AM
Post by: SiL on Jan 07, 2019, 03:38:43 AM
Ripley was only explicitly employed by WY in the original film (I don't think Aliens mentions who she works for at the docks), so AR ticks all the boxes.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Jan 07, 2019, 03:46:26 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jan 07, 2019, 03:46:26 AM
Quote from: SiL on Jan 07, 2019, 03:38:43 AMI figured the inquest interrogation made it clear who she worked for.
Ripley was only explicitly employed by WY in the original film (I don't think Aliens mentions who she works for at the docks), so AR ticks all the boxes.
As an aside, isn't W-Y only brought up in the director's cut of AR?
Otherwise I stand corrected. :)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: SiL on Jan 07, 2019, 04:01:12 AM
Post by: SiL on Jan 07, 2019, 04:01:12 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 07, 2019, 03:46:26 AMThat's before she had her license revoked, though.
I figured the inquest interrogation made it clear who she worked for.
QuoteAs an aside, isn't W-Y only brought up in the director's cut of AR?Nah, W-Y is mentioned -- it's the Walmart buyout that's in the DC.
Otherwise I stand corrected. :)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 07, 2019, 04:14:11 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 07, 2019, 04:14:11 AM
Well when AVP 2004 is considered it doesn't contradict anything in the original 2 Predator films and Alien Quadrilogy. Does Prometheus/Alien Covenant truly contradict AVP? Nothing very substantial that couldn't be retconned in a future story.
I like that we don't get all our answers in these prequel films. The ambiguity of it creates good mystery and fear of the unknown. But if a conclusion to the prequel films is to be made (which it should) I think it should provide some solid answers that were asked in Prometheus/Covenant about the Engineers, Black Pathogen, Xenomorphs and David. The lore must be dealt with very carefully here though. Perhaps provide an answer to these questions that simultaneously asks an even bigger question? Space Jockey/Derelict?
But it will take a film/story that clearly seperates the timelines of Alien and AVP for me to agree that Alien is the current official canon seperate from AVP or however you want to put it. Or an official statement.
The Predator clearly canonizes the idea of AVP. And what is AVP? The crossover of Alien and Predator. They were so close to having Ripley or Newt come out of the W-Y Pod which I assume was going to be because of time a travelling Predator. As stupid as that idea is the intentions behind these things is quite clear.
I like that we don't get all our answers in these prequel films. The ambiguity of it creates good mystery and fear of the unknown. But if a conclusion to the prequel films is to be made (which it should) I think it should provide some solid answers that were asked in Prometheus/Covenant about the Engineers, Black Pathogen, Xenomorphs and David. The lore must be dealt with very carefully here though. Perhaps provide an answer to these questions that simultaneously asks an even bigger question? Space Jockey/Derelict?
But it will take a film/story that clearly seperates the timelines of Alien and AVP for me to agree that Alien is the current official canon seperate from AVP or however you want to put it. Or an official statement.
The Predator clearly canonizes the idea of AVP. And what is AVP? The crossover of Alien and Predator. They were so close to having Ripley or Newt come out of the W-Y Pod which I assume was going to be because of time a travelling Predator. As stupid as that idea is the intentions behind these things is quite clear.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 07, 2019, 05:25:34 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 07, 2019, 05:25:34 AM
QuoteDoes Prometheus/Alien Covenant truly contradict AVP?
Yes. You know this.
QuoteNothing very substantial that couldn't be retconned in a future story.
Yeah other than the origin of one of the main villains - nothing substantial at all...
QuoteBut it will take a film/story that clearly seperates the timelines of Alien and AVP for me to agree that Alien is the current official canon seperate from AVP or however you want to put it. Or an official statement.
Considering you've been given a film that clearly separates the timelines and two books - Covenant Origins and The Weyland-Yutani Report - that talk about the Company with no mention of AvP events, what criteria would you actually accept?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 07, 2019, 05:25:52 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 07, 2019, 05:25:52 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 07, 2019, 03:36:56 AMQuote from: The Old One on Jan 06, 2019, 09:32:08 PM
TBH it just means that "The Predator" is directly tied to the AVP films in a way;
Predator, Predator 2, Predators and The Alien Anthology isn't.Quote from: The Old One on Jan 06, 2019, 09:32:08 PM'Predators' doesn't have 'AvP' stuff because it's on another planet, so how could it reference 'AvP'?
It literally has shit from AVP 2004 in it that none of the others do.
Actually- and I'm being completely genuine- this isn't just bolstering my POV for the sake of it.
I was thirteen when Predators came out and I was actually disappointed;
because IMO, it far and away could've easily referenced Alien in a more appropriate way
than either of the previous two films. It's set on an Alien planet!
Throw a crashed Derelict into the background,
have one of the cages on the game preserve corroded by acid,
have Xenomorph "bones" in the camp site.
The list goes on.
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 07, 2019, 04:14:10 AM
Well when AVP 2004 is considered it doesn't contradict anything in the original 2 Predator films and Alien Quadrilogy.
Does Prometheus/Alien Covenant truly contradict AVP? Nothing very substantial that couldn't be retconned in a future story.
Nothing you believe is substantial.
Peter Weyland Weyland Corporation's Founder,
The W-Y Company Timeline, W-Y Report.
ETC
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 07, 2019, 06:49:08 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 07, 2019, 06:49:08 PM
Regarding official canon:
So we all know "AVP" was canon, and designed as a prequel to "Alien". Per Paul Anderson:
But once AVP's least favorite fan Ridley Scott got back into the game, Ridley retconned AVP out. As per "Prometheus" writer Damion Lindeloff:
Now @Frosty, as a fan, you can follow old canon, new canon, or a combination of both. Whatever makes you happy. No one can tell you otherwise the stories you choose to include or discard. :)
But once we get into what's currently official, it's kind of black & white. So I guess I'm a little confused / trying to discover what your endgame is my good friend. That both old and new canons can still work as one if we choose?
So we all know "AVP" was canon, and designed as a prequel to "Alien". Per Paul Anderson:
- "The movie is designed to be a sequel to the Predator movies and a prequel to the Alien movies."
But once AVP's least favorite fan Ridley Scott got back into the game, Ridley retconned AVP out. As per "Prometheus" writer Damion Lindeloff:
- "When I said to [Ridley Scott], 'You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies,' he just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process."
Now @Frosty, as a fan, you can follow old canon, new canon, or a combination of both. Whatever makes you happy. No one can tell you otherwise the stories you choose to include or discard. :)
But once we get into what's currently official, it's kind of black & white. So I guess I'm a little confused / trying to discover what your endgame is my good friend. That both old and new canons can still work as one if we choose?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: JokersWarPig on Jan 07, 2019, 07:23:54 PM
Post by: JokersWarPig on Jan 07, 2019, 07:23:54 PM
I have deep disdain for Covenant so I'll constantly argue for AVP's cannon because I hate it less.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 03:23:06 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 03:23:06 AM
This one?
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sideshowtoy.com%2Fmas_assets%2Fjpg%2F2951_press01-001.jpg&hash=05a04de34dc2d0380c1b4a0f9101ddbeb4f1e841)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sideshowtoy.com%2Fmas_assets%2Fjpg%2F2951_press01-001.jpg&hash=05a04de34dc2d0380c1b4a0f9101ddbeb4f1e841)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Jan 08, 2019, 03:26:37 AM
Post by: Huggs on Jan 08, 2019, 03:26:37 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 03:23:06 AM
This one?
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sideshowtoy.com%2Fmas_assets%2Fjpg%2F2951_press01-001.jpg&hash=05a04de34dc2d0380c1b4a0f9101ddbeb4f1e841)
Looks like a tiny artificial leg.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 08, 2019, 04:21:58 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 08, 2019, 04:21:58 AM
The important question is: Is life and death still canon?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 08, 2019, 04:29:44 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 08, 2019, 04:29:44 AM
I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be, despite my intense dislike of it.
Unless you want to argue that it's depiction of the Pathogen
is so incongruent with Covenant that the two can't co-exist.
Unless you want to argue that it's depiction of the Pathogen
is so incongruent with Covenant that the two can't co-exist.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 08, 2019, 04:48:00 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 08, 2019, 04:48:00 AM
I seem to recalled it stating the Preds have hunted xenomorphs for a long time, so Fire and stone/life and death prove that David isn't the only creator?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 08, 2019, 04:55:08 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 08, 2019, 04:55:08 AM
The phrase "A long time." is up to interpretation, a long time can be 20 years.
F&S is set in 2219.
Prometheus is set in 2093.
F&S is set in 2219.
Prometheus is set in 2093.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 05:00:00 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 05:00:00 AM
Indeed.
I don't recall a specific reference. Fire & Stone had them hunting different extra terrestrial species and coming across images of the Engineers.
Even if there was a reference, the primary source material is the films more so than crossover comics.
I don't recall a specific reference. Fire & Stone had them hunting different extra terrestrial species and coming across images of the Engineers.
Even if there was a reference, the primary source material is the films more so than crossover comics.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 08, 2019, 05:08:22 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 08, 2019, 05:08:22 AM
Let me know if anyone finds a specific reference.
I'm going to start keeping a list of the material
booted out of the canon and why exactly.
I'm going to start keeping a list of the material
booted out of the canon and why exactly.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 08, 2019, 05:12:30 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 08, 2019, 05:12:30 AM
So there are actually two separate AVP universes, AVP 2004 and 2007, and fire and stone/life and death?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 05:18:37 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 05:18:37 AM
If F+S and L+D can't exist within the Alien timeline, then there's no reason they can't exist with the AvP films.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 08, 2019, 05:43:01 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 08, 2019, 05:43:01 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 07, 2019, 06:49:08 PM
Now @Frosty, as a fan, you can follow old canon, new canon, or a combination of both. Whatever makes you happy. No one can tell you otherwise the stories you choose to include or discard. :)
But once we get into what's currently official, it's kind of black & white. So I guess I'm a little confused / trying to discover what your endgame is my good friend. That both old and new canons can still work as one if we choose?
No endgame really. I agree it's black and white at the moment. All I'm saying is there is no current official 'canon' that doesn't truly allow for AVP to be a viable option. But with the release of The Predator with it's reference to AVP (2004) and the news of the concepts of Ripley and Newt being brought in the crossover is still fairly relevant in my opinion.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 09:00:29 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 09:00:29 AM
QuoteAll I'm saying is there is no current official 'canon' that doesn't truly allow for AVP to be a viable option.
Repeating this over and over is not going to make it so.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 08, 2019, 10:30:19 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 08, 2019, 10:30:19 AM
Please provide official or in-universe information that makes it not possible for AVP to be a feasible canon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 08, 2019, 10:34:04 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 08, 2019, 10:34:04 AM
Quote from: SM on Sep 26, 2018, 03:42:52 AM
They've been adequately provided already and me providing them again is not going to change your stance.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 10:35:46 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 10:35:46 AM
^ Cheers.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 08, 2019, 10:40:39 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 08, 2019, 10:40:39 AM
I've also provided rebuttals and counter-arguments to said "adequately provided evidence" with no response to these so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree instead of having a proper discussion around it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 08, 2019, 10:47:06 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 08, 2019, 10:47:06 AM
Failed rebuttals and counter-arguments.
Most of, founded on nothing more than pure fanfiction.
Such as the idea that Charles Bishop Weyland is
Peter Weyland's Father, despite both being referred to as
"The" Company's Founder in their respective fiction.
You've gotten responses, multiple times.
Most of, founded on nothing more than pure fanfiction.
Such as the idea that Charles Bishop Weyland is
Peter Weyland's Father, despite both being referred to as
"The" Company's Founder in their respective fiction.
You've gotten responses, multiple times.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 10:50:34 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 10:50:34 AM
And they've been duly ignored.
If someone wants to believe that AvP and the other Alien films can co-exist and can reconcile it in their head - that's fine. It's a belief. It doesn't change the facts, and saying otherwise is just dishonest.
If someone wants to believe that AvP and the other Alien films can co-exist and can reconcile it in their head - that's fine. It's a belief. It doesn't change the facts, and saying otherwise is just dishonest.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 08, 2019, 11:15:42 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 08, 2019, 11:15:42 AM
Charles inherited Weyland Industries from his father. He didn't found anything.
Peter founded Weyland Corporation. Similar name and iconography but different entity. This is called branding in marketing.
There is no real contradiction here. We just don't have all the information. This is why I use speculation and theory to show that AVP and Alien can still easily fit together.
I'm not claiming to know that AVP is the official canon. Just that it is still possible.
But back to my point relating to The Predator. The Predator all but confirms the crossover. Since when did the crossover ever mean "Ahh AVP is canon to Predator but not Alien."? Okay maybe it does only confirm that Predator is in the AVP universe but with the concepts of Ripley and Newt being brought in AND FILMED, the intentions of the studio seem fairly clear to me.
Peter founded Weyland Corporation. Similar name and iconography but different entity. This is called branding in marketing.
There is no real contradiction here. We just don't have all the information. This is why I use speculation and theory to show that AVP and Alien can still easily fit together.
I'm not claiming to know that AVP is the official canon. Just that it is still possible.
But back to my point relating to The Predator. The Predator all but confirms the crossover. Since when did the crossover ever mean "Ahh AVP is canon to Predator but not Alien."? Okay maybe it does only confirm that Predator is in the AVP universe but with the concepts of Ripley and Newt being brought in AND FILMED, the intentions of the studio seem fairly clear to me.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jan 08, 2019, 11:20:52 AM
Post by: SiL on Jan 08, 2019, 11:20:52 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 08, 2019, 11:15:42 AMand cut, being the important part.
but with the concepts of Ripley and Newt being brought in AND FILMED
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 11:25:52 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 11:25:52 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 08, 2019, 05:43:01 AMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 07, 2019, 06:49:08 PM
Now @Frosty, as a fan, you can follow old canon, new canon, or a combination of both. Whatever makes you happy. No one can tell you otherwise the stories you choose to include or discard. :)
But once we get into what's currently official, it's kind of black & white. So I guess I'm a little confused / trying to discover what your endgame is my good friend. That both old and new canons can still work as one if we choose?
No endgame really. I agree it's black and white at the moment. All I'm saying is there is no current official 'canon' that doesn't truly allow for AVP to be a viable option. But with the release of The Predator with it's reference to AVP (2004) and the news of the concepts of Ripley and Newt being brought in the crossover is still fairly relevant in my opinion.
Okay, so I'm not 100%, but I think it is your view that you can make all the films work, Alien old canon and new, in one linear timeline, and include the addition of all four Predator films and still make it work. Am I on the right track?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 08, 2019, 11:32:27 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 08, 2019, 11:32:27 AM
Right.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 12:42:43 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 12:42:43 PM
Okay. That's fun. I've seen that recently done with Halloween's old and new timeline. It's even deserving of it's own thread: "Combining the Alien Prequels, Alien, AVP, & Predator films into one Cohesive Timeline." You should start that my friend! :)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 08, 2019, 01:18:24 PM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 08, 2019, 01:18:24 PM
Thank you. I might just do that.
It makes more sense, in the franchise's current state, to be one universe. Instead of two continuities - one comprised of Prometheus, Alien Covenant, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3 and Resurrection the other comprised of Predator, Predator 2, Predators, The Predator, AVP, AVPR, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3 and Resurrection. But if that's truly what it's come to I know which one I'd rather out of the two.
It makes more sense, in the franchise's current state, to be one universe. Instead of two continuities - one comprised of Prometheus, Alien Covenant, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3 and Resurrection the other comprised of Predator, Predator 2, Predators, The Predator, AVP, AVPR, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3 and Resurrection. But if that's truly what it's come to I know which one I'd rather out of the two.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jan 08, 2019, 01:19:59 PM
Post by: SiL on Jan 08, 2019, 01:19:59 PM
It clearly doesn't make more sense if you have to jump hoops to make it work ???
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 02:10:08 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 02:10:08 PM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 08, 2019, 01:18:24 PM
Thank you. I might just do that.
It makes more sense, in the franchise's current state, to be one universe. Instead of two continuities - one comprised of Prometheus, Alien Covenant, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3 and Resurrection the other comprised of Predator, Predator 2, Predators, The Predator, AVP, AVPR, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3 and Resurrection. But if that's truly what it's come to I know which one I'd rather out of the two.
Well we have two sets of canon right? Paul Anderson said AVP was a prequel to the "Alien" films and sequel to the "Predator" films. So that means...
- ORIGINAL CANON: Predator, Predator 2, Predators, AVP, AVPR, Alien, Aliens, Alien3, Alien Resurrection,
Then Ridley broke away from the AVP lineage leaving us...
- RETCONNED CANON #1: Prometheus, Alien Covenant, Alien, Aliens, Alien3, Alien Ressurection.
- RETCONNED CANON #2: Predator, Predator 2, Predators, The Predator, AVP, AVPR.
But with films like "The Predator" still reinforcing a connection between Alien & Predator, it still makes more sense to you to bridge them back together in your mind. Otherwise you basically have two people in a room, but only one* side is acknowledging the other exists.
Kind of like Paul Anderson and Ridley Scott both sitting at a big Fox table and Paul shouting "Hey Ridley! It's me! Paul! AVP Paul" and Ridley Scott crossing his arms and saying "I don't hear anything. I'm all alone as far as I'm concerned". ;D
So it makes more sense for you to push them back together. I can get that.
- -
* edit (forgot the word "one")
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: JokersWarPig on Jan 08, 2019, 02:24:46 PM
Post by: JokersWarPig on Jan 08, 2019, 02:24:46 PM
This thread just proves Covenant did a lot of unnecessary things that just give the fan base more to argue about. I guess the egg on the sulaco and Alien vs Aliens arguments were getting pretty old.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 02:30:37 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 02:30:37 PM
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Jan 08, 2019, 02:24:46 PM
This thread just proves Covenant did a lot of unnecessary things that just give the fan base more to argue about. I guess the egg on the sulaco and Alien vs Aliens arguments were getting pretty old.
Sometimes I admit I can be oblivious, but I don't think we're arguing.
But it was Prometheus that brought the retcon. Covenant instead brought us the David created the Xenomorph debate. :)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 08, 2019, 05:08:54 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 08, 2019, 05:08:54 PM
Voodoo Magic, The Old One's interpretation;
PREDATOR (Either timeline, no references to either Prometheus or AVP 2004)
PREDATOR 2 (AVP 2004/Neither Timeline, Xenomorph reference Trophy)
P R E D A T O R S (Either timeline, no references to either Prometheus or AVP 2004)
THE PREDATOR™ (AVP 2004 Timeline direct reference & Xenomorph Trophy)
A L I E N (Either timeline, no references to either Prometheus or AVP 2004)
AL|ENS (Either timeline, no references to either Prometheus or AVP 2004)
ALIEN³ (Michael Bishop = Prometheus, Michael Bishop Weyland = AVP 2004)
AR (Who cares. Probably either timeline.)
Also Predator 2 is arguable, as that could just be
another creature, possibly a Pathogen creature-
that greatly resembles the Alien.
Or David could turn out to be wrong.
Or I'm sure you could argue something else,
it's just an Easter egg blah, blah blah.
PREDATOR (Either timeline, no references to either Prometheus or AVP 2004)
PREDATOR 2 (AVP 2004/Neither Timeline, Xenomorph reference Trophy)
P R E D A T O R S (Either timeline, no references to either Prometheus or AVP 2004)
THE PREDATOR™ (AVP 2004 Timeline direct reference & Xenomorph Trophy)
A L I E N (Either timeline, no references to either Prometheus or AVP 2004)
AL|ENS (Either timeline, no references to either Prometheus or AVP 2004)
ALIEN³ (Michael Bishop = Prometheus, Michael Bishop Weyland = AVP 2004)
AR (Who cares. Probably either timeline.)
Also Predator 2 is arguable, as that could just be
another creature, possibly a Pathogen creature-
that greatly resembles the Alien.
Or David could turn out to be wrong.
Or I'm sure you could argue something else,
it's just an Easter egg blah, blah blah.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 06:23:14 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 06:23:14 PM
@TheOldOne -
It's interesting how fluid your interpretation is, and how you take each film at a case by case basis. I've never seen this topic approached that way before.
It's also interesting (if I'm understanding you correctly) is how you've taken no stance on "Alien3". Usually people position themself one way or another, and that decision often sways the two Alien installments preceding it. Yet, you leave it inconclusive. I must say your analytical approach is pretty unique! I like it.
Btw - Those title fonts so enhance your presentation. One day I'll have to adapt your technique! :)
It's interesting how fluid your interpretation is, and how you take each film at a case by case basis. I've never seen this topic approached that way before.
It's also interesting (if I'm understanding you correctly) is how you've taken no stance on "Alien3". Usually people position themself one way or another, and that decision often sways the two Alien installments preceding it. Yet, you leave it inconclusive. I must say your analytical approach is pretty unique! I like it.
Btw - Those title fonts so enhance your presentation. One day I'll have to adapt your technique! :)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 08, 2019, 06:38:05 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 08, 2019, 06:38:05 PM
Well, it's the same as Alien & Aliens,
only this time there's directly an element
which MUST be different depending upon-
if you've watching it through the lens of the
AVP continuity. (Charles, Michael, Karl.)
AVP, AVPR, The Predator, AVP 2010.
Or the 2012+ Prometheus continuity,
where the character is firmly established
as human and simply one of many great thinkers.
only this time there's directly an element
which MUST be different depending upon-
if you've watching it through the lens of the
AVP continuity. (Charles, Michael, Karl.)
AVP, AVPR, The Predator, AVP 2010.
Or the 2012+ Prometheus continuity,
where the character is firmly established
as human and simply one of many great thinkers.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 08, 2019, 10:30:10 PM
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 08, 2019, 10:30:10 PM
I think to make it all work the only thing you have to assume is that Peter Weyland is a close relative, tho not son, of Charles Bishop weyland. Covenant doesn't state that xenomorphs only have one creator, so xenomorphs appearing before David isn't a contradiction. The global warming also isn't a contradiction as The Predator could have happened before 2016.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jan 08, 2019, 10:37:50 PM
Post by: SiL on Jan 08, 2019, 10:37:50 PM
"All you have to do is ignore what the films say and it all works".
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 11:09:03 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 11:09:03 PM
Quote from: yhe1 on Jan 08, 2019, 10:30:10 PM
I think to make it all work the only thing you have to assume is that Peter Weyland is a close relative, tho not son, of Charles Bishop weyland. Covenant doesn't state that xenomorphs only have one creator, so xenomorphs appearing before David isn't a contradiction. The global warming also isn't a contradiction before The Predator could have happened before 2016.
In "Predator 2" there was clearly effects of global warming occurring in 1997.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 08, 2019, 10:37:50 PM
"All you have to do is ignore what the films say and it all works".
Hey no one likes rain during a parade. Just consider what Frosty is doing as an experiment. ;)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 08, 2019, 11:13:28 PM
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 08, 2019, 11:13:28 PM
Quote
In "Predator 2" there was clearly effects of global warming occurring in 1997.
Peter Weyland reversed global warming in 2016, so that is fine.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 11:22:50 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 11:22:50 PM
Quote from: yhe1 on Jan 08, 2019, 11:13:28 PMQuote
In "Predator 2" there was clearly effects of global warming occurring in 1997.
Peter Weyland reversed global warming in 2016, so that is fine.
There was no indication it was immediately reversed, correct? As in his polar ice cap work may have resulted in a gradual reversal.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jan 08, 2019, 11:25:29 PM
Post by: SiL on Jan 08, 2019, 11:25:29 PM
You'd still think the characters would mention that when they're going on about Predators hunting us before we make ourselves extinct...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 11:31:38 PM
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 11:31:38 PM
For what it's worth, there were still some climate related issues in the early 22nd century as mentioned in Covenant Origins.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 11:38:08 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 08, 2019, 11:38:08 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jan 08, 2019, 11:25:29 PM
You'd still think the characters would mention that when they're going on about Predators hunting us before we make ourselves extinct...
Hmm. Maybe at the time there were deniers, people who didn't believe the science would work? It would seem plausible.
Quote from: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 11:31:38 PM
For what it's worth, there were still some climate related issues in the early 22nd century as mentioned in Covenant Origins.
Interesting. Do you know to what extent?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 11:45:40 PM
Post by: SM on Jan 08, 2019, 11:45:40 PM
Melting ice sheet in Greenland mucks around with usual weather patterns in the UK. The Thames Barrier barely holds back ice floes and flooding in winter and there's a thick smog in London during summer.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 04:22:04 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 04:22:04 AM
Quote from: SiL on Jan 08, 2019, 10:37:50 PM
"All you have to do is ignore what the films say and it all works".
Do you believe that Alien Covenant has given us the answer 100% outright on David being the sole creator and origin of all Xenomorphs ever seen in the franchise?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 05:04:49 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 05:04:49 AM
If you define 'franchise' as the Alien films and Prometheus - then yes.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 05:27:49 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 05:27:49 AM
Understandable. I see how and why you've come to that conclusion.
But do you believe it has no merit when other fans believe it has been left ambiguous or may receive a minor retcon if we ever do get a third prequel film?
But do you believe it has no merit when other fans believe it has been left ambiguous or may receive a minor retcon if we ever do get a third prequel film?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 05:43:55 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 05:43:55 AM
No, I do not believe there is any merit in saying it is ambiguous. It's a lie people tell themselves because they're unhappy with the way things turned out. And if they're unhappy with how things turned out, they should engage with the things they're happy with and don't engage with the things they're unhappy with. It's entertainment after all. If you don't like David creating the Aliens - watch and enjoy the movies where that doesn't happen. You are under no obligation to like something just because is has ALIEN stamped on it.
That said, to maintain that AvP and Alien can co-exist when they can't, is incorrect.
Whether it receives a retcon in the future is irrelevant to how it stands right now. I wouldn't be unhappy if it turned out David didn't create the Alien - but, short of a major revamp once Disney gets up to speed, I don't imagine there will ever be a cinematic link between the AvP Weyland and the Prometheus Weyland.
That said, to maintain that AvP and Alien can co-exist when they can't, is incorrect.
Whether it receives a retcon in the future is irrelevant to how it stands right now. I wouldn't be unhappy if it turned out David didn't create the Alien - but, short of a major revamp once Disney gets up to speed, I don't imagine there will ever be a cinematic link between the AvP Weyland and the Prometheus Weyland.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 05:54:41 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 05:54:41 AM
I mean the Alien films have always had a lot of ambiguity behind them so I don't see what the issue is. It is very unclear about how David came about creating the Xenomorphs seen on Planet 4 and there are many hints at him being delusional so why isn't it possible that he may have gotten things wrong or may be lying? David being wrong about this would be a great reveal in a third film and would be a true downfall for him. Do you not have fun speculating and creating/hearing about theories about this universe?
I actually really like Covenant so I will continue to engage with it actually.
There doesn't need to be a cinematic link between the AVP Weyland and the Prometheus Weyland for it to still easily work.
I actually really like Covenant so I will continue to engage with it actually.
There doesn't need to be a cinematic link between the AVP Weyland and the Prometheus Weyland for it to still easily work.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 06:04:08 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 06:04:08 AM
Yes, but as of right now, there is no link. Quite the opposite. The Weyland of Alien was created by Peter Weyland - not Charles Bishop Weyland.
And there were no Xenomorphs before David created them.
But this isn't something that hasn't been said ad nauseum.
And there were no Xenomorphs before David created them.
But this isn't something that hasn't been said ad nauseum.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 06:17:36 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 06:17:36 AM
As I've said before I see no real contradiction here. Charles inherited Weyland Industries and Peter founded Weyland Corporation. Similar name and logo. But that's simple branding.
What evidence do you have to say there were no Xenomorphs before David?
I will accept David as the creator in the current official Alien timeline when it is confirmed. Until then it is just a different way of speculating.
What evidence do you have to say there were no Xenomorphs before David?
I will accept David as the creator in the current official Alien timeline when it is confirmed. Until then it is just a different way of speculating.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 06:25:52 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 06:25:52 AM
What would seriously need to be on film to confirm Charles Bishop Weyland never existed?
Would they have to establish that Yutani built a space shuttle launch site in 1984 in Antarctica?
Which then you would claim is evidence of a cover up.
Or perhaps you'd ask for Peter Weyland's entire genealogy,
which then you'd claim has been falsified to make him look like more of a genius.
Do you need Michael Bishop's (falsified) genealogy too,
to certify that he's unrelated to the Weyland bloodline?
You're being obtuse and ridiculous.
Would they have to establish that Yutani built a space shuttle launch site in 1984 in Antarctica?
Which then you would claim is evidence of a cover up.
Or perhaps you'd ask for Peter Weyland's entire genealogy,
which then you'd claim has been falsified to make him look like more of a genius.
Do you need Michael Bishop's (falsified) genealogy too,
to certify that he's unrelated to the Weyland bloodline?
You're being obtuse and ridiculous.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 06:34:03 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 06:34:03 AM
QuoteWhat evidence do you have to say there were no Xenomorphs before David?
What evidence do you have to say there were Xenomorphs before David?
We see a time period millennia ago when a planet is seeded by Engineers, we see a TED talk by Weyland in 2023, we see a time period when Weyland activated David, we see 2089 on Earth, we see 2093/4 on LV-223. Is there a Xenomorph in any of these time periods prior to David creating them in 2104?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 06:50:29 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 06:50:29 AM
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 06:25:52 AM
What would seriously need to be on film to confirm Charles Bishop Weyland never existed?
Would they have to establish that Yutani built a space shuttle launch site in 1984 in Antarctica?
Which then you would claim is evidence of a cover up.
Or perhaps you'd ask for Peter Weyland's entire genealogy,
which then you'd claim has been falsified to make him look like more of a genius.
Do you need Michael Bishop's (falsified) genealogy too,
to certify that he's unrelated to the Weyland bloodline?
You're being obtuse and ridiculous.
No. I'm not saying that the studio should or needs to do any of those things ???
Though a Peter Weyland genealogy in a book or something would be cool.
But if they were to contradict and seperate Alien and AVP on film there are many other ways it could be done with no mention of anything relating to Charles or Michael.
Quote from: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 06:34:03 AMQuoteWhat evidence do you have to say there were no Xenomorphs before David?
What evidence do you have to say there were Xenomorphs before David?
We see a time period millennia ago when a planet is seeded by Engineers, we see a TED talk by Weyland in 2023, we see a time period when Weyland activated David, we see 2089 on Earth, we see 2093/4 on LV-223. Is there a Xenomorph in any of these time periods prior to David creating them in 2104?
Prometheus & Alien Covenant: The Black Pathogen creates Xenomorph-like creatures with little to no tampering and has the ability to create Xenomorphs with tampering. The Engineers have had the Pathogen from at least 3,200,000,000 BC. Not a single member or faction of these advanced genetic engineers came upon this possibility in this time? The mural seems to be hinting at a warning or perhaps worship of this sort of lifecycle. A very Xenomorph-like creature and facehuggers are shown in this mural.
Alien & Aliens: The derelict is clearly meant to be ancient.
Comics and EU: Many examples of Xenomorphs existing long before us.
AVP: Predators have hunted Xenomorphs since at least 3000 BC
Of course Xenomorphs aren't seen in any of the time periods you mention. It wasn't until David created the Xenomorphs of Planet 4 and the Nostromo encountered the Derelict did humans encounter Xenomorphs since 2004 (AVPR). Unless you count Predator Concrete Jungle.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 06:57:14 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 06:57:14 AM
"But if they were to contradict and separate Alien and AVP on film,
there are many other ways it could be done with no mention of anything relating to Charles or Michael."
Such as?
&
The rest of your post is pure theory and references to material that have no bearing on the Alien Canon.
As has been stated ad-nausem.
there are many other ways it could be done with no mention of anything relating to Charles or Michael."
Such as?
&
The rest of your post is pure theory and references to material that have no bearing on the Alien Canon.
As has been stated ad-nausem.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 07:00:03 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 07:00:03 AM
"Xenomorph-like" correct.
Not Xenomorph on its own without the 'like' suffix. The Engineers could've created numerous eyeless pointy headed creatures that reproduce using third party hosts - but they never created a Xenomorph.
You've answered you're own question.
Not Xenomorph on its own without the 'like' suffix. The Engineers could've created numerous eyeless pointy headed creatures that reproduce using third party hosts - but they never created a Xenomorph.
You've answered you're own question.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:02:25 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:02:25 AM
It is also pure theory to say that David had anything to do with the derelict. Also speculation to say the Engineers never created Xenomorphs.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 07:06:36 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 07:06:36 AM
No one suggested David had anything to do with the Derelict.
Your second claim requires evidence.
Your second claim requires evidence.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:11:55 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:11:55 AM
Well if David didn't have anything to do with the Derelict then he isn't the creator, no?
We currently don't know for sure if the Engineers have created Xenomorphs before or not. You're right we require evidence. But there are more clues that point towards it being that they have, in my opinion.
We currently don't know for sure if the Engineers have created Xenomorphs before or not. You're right we require evidence. But there are more clues that point towards it being that they have, in my opinion.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 07:16:30 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 07:16:30 AM
QuoteWell if David didn't have anything to do with the Derelict then he isn't the creator, no?
What?
If, for example, some Engineers encounter the Covenant, deactivate David, but the Aliens get on their ship and that ship ends up being the Derelict - David has had nothing to do with the Derelict and is still the creator.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Jan 09, 2019, 07:23:48 AM
Post by: Huggs on Jan 09, 2019, 07:23:48 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:11:55 AM
Well if David didn't have anything to do with the Derelict then he isn't the creator, no?
We do not yet officially know the age of the derelict. Without that, we cannot say who was first. It had enough energy left to still be broadcasting a warning. But as has been mentioned in other threads, the ship in Prometheus had kept an engineer safely in stasis for some 2000 years.
Until we have concrete answers, Ridley is free to say David had everything or nothing to do with the derelict.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:25:06 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:25:06 AM
You're kind of stretching it a bit there. It's still David's Xenomorphs that would have done this so it does link back to him.
I really hope it doesn't turn out to be something like this. The derelict was clearly meant to have ovomorphs in the hold for transportation before any infestation. (Until retconned)
I really hope it doesn't turn out to be something like this. The derelict was clearly meant to have ovomorphs in the hold for transportation before any infestation. (Until retconned)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 07:27:32 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 07:27:32 AM
Sorry to be a nuisance. But can I get some examples?
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 06:57:14 AM
"But if they were to contradict and separate Alien and AVP on film,
there are many other ways it could be done with no mention of anything relating to Charles or Michael."
Such as?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Jan 09, 2019, 07:27:32 AM
Post by: Huggs on Jan 09, 2019, 07:27:32 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:25:06 AM
You're kind of stretching it a bit there. It's still David's Xenomorphs that would have done this so it does link back to him.
If the derelict is older than david, then it's no stretch at all. We just don't know yet, as far as I'm aware.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:28:20 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:28:20 AM
Quote from: Huggs on Jan 09, 2019, 07:23:48 AMQuote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:11:55 AM
Well if David didn't have anything to do with the Derelict then he isn't the creator, no?
We do not yet officially know the age of the derelict. Without that, we cannot say who was first. It had enough energy left to still be broadcasting a warning. But as has been mentioned in other threads, the ship in Prometheus had kept an engineer safely in stasis for some 2000 years.
Until we have concrete answers, Ridley is free to say David had everything or nothing to do with the derelict.
So until then we can't really say if David is or is not the sole creator of the Xenomorphs.
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 07:27:32 AM
Sorry to be a nuisance. But can I get some examples?Quote from: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 06:57:14 AM
"But if they were to contradict and separate Alien and AVP on film,
there are many other ways it could be done with no mention of anything relating to Charles or Michael."
Such as?
Well confirming David as the sole creator of the Xenomorph would be one way to do it. Which I hope they don't.
Quote from: Huggs on Jan 09, 2019, 07:27:32 AMQuote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:25:06 AM
You're kind of stretching it a bit there. It's still David's Xenomorphs that would have done this so it does link back to him.
If the derelict is older than david, then it's no stretch at all. We just don't know yet, as far as I'm aware.
I was saying it was stretch in response to SM's last post. I agree with you that it appears the derelict should be older than David.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 07:38:53 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 07:38:53 AM
QuoteSo until then we can't really say if David is or is not the sole creator of the Xenomorphs.
No, that's not how it works.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 07:39:35 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 07:39:35 AM
You said "Many other ways"
Give me one that doesn't concern the Alien itself.
Give me one that doesn't concern the Alien itself.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:52:42 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:52:42 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 07:38:53 AMQuoteSo until then we can't really say if David is or is not the sole creator of the Xenomorphs.
No, that's not how it works.
Ah I see. So when there's multiple fans who believe it is amibuous and think a third film is needed for some answers, that's not how it works because you disagree?
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 07:39:35 AM
You said "Many other ways"
Give me one that doesn't concern the Alien itself.
An offhand comment about Weyland's bloodline or the history of the Corporation. I don't know why you're pressing me on this, it doesn't hold much relevance to the discussion at hand. Ad nauseam ::)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 09, 2019, 07:53:15 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 09, 2019, 07:53:15 AM
We can't confirm when the derelict crashed, so we can't confirm if David is the only creator.
Simple as that
Simple as that
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jan 09, 2019, 07:55:35 AM
Post by: SiL on Jan 09, 2019, 07:55:35 AM
Quote from: yhe1 on Jan 09, 2019, 07:53:15 AMIt's really not. Burden of proof would be on you to show it definitely crashed, with cargo, before David made the Aliens.
We can't confirm when the derelict crashed, so we can't confirm if David is the only credator.
Simple as that
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 09, 2019, 08:07:38 AM
Post by: yhe1 on Jan 09, 2019, 08:07:38 AM
Quote from: SiL on Jan 09, 2019, 07:55:35 AMQuote from: yhe1 on Jan 09, 2019, 07:53:15 AMIt's really not. Burden of proof would be on you to show it definitely crashed, with cargo, before David made the Aliens.
We can't confirm when the derelict crashed, so we can't confirm if David is the only credator.
Simple as that
"Just because the derelict looks old doesn't mean it can't be young" vs "Just because we saw David create an xenomorph doesn't mean he is the only creator"
same arguments over and over again
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 08:14:07 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 08:14:07 AM
There is proof for the latter. Try making the comparison again when there is proof for the former.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 09, 2019, 08:17:09 AM
Post by: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 09, 2019, 08:17:09 AM
In my made-up story for the sequel, David finds an old Engineer ship. Which would explain the state of the Derelict.
And David's the creator.
Why? It's what Covenant showed us and Ridley told us.
So unless we get an official movie that tells others, the Engineers didn't made it, David did.
And David's the creator.
Why? It's what Covenant showed us and Ridley told us.
So unless we get an official movie that tells others, the Engineers didn't made it, David did.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 08:22:48 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 08:22:48 AM
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:52:42 AMQuote from: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 07:39:35 AMAn offhand comment about Weyland's bloodline or the history of the Corporation. I don't know why you're pressing me on this, it doesn't hold much relevance to the discussion at hand. Ad nauseam ::)
You said "Many other ways"
Give me one that doesn't concern the Alien itself.
So... stuff that's already present in the films and the W-Y Report.
But you theory craft around anyway to deny their relevance.
(https://y.yarn.co/9ac2de18-91a3-43b5-9b10-0605cbdeb5a9_text.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 09, 2019, 08:23:12 AM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 09, 2019, 08:23:12 AM
I'm hoping David kills the space jockey and takes down the derelict with a canister of black goo.
Seeing what it did to the population of Planet 4, I think that would make a fine sci-fi explanation for the fossilized look of the pilot.
Seeing what it did to the population of Planet 4, I think that would make a fine sci-fi explanation for the fossilized look of the pilot.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 08:25:51 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 08:25:51 AM
Not a bad idea, that.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 08:30:03 AM
Post by: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 08:30:03 AM
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 09, 2019, 08:17:09 AM
In my made-up story for the sequel, David finds an old Engineer ship. Which would explain the state of the Derelict.
Wouldn't explain the already chestburstered Pilot though.
Quote from: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 08:22:48 AMQuote from: Frosty Venom on Jan 09, 2019, 07:52:42 AMQuote from: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 07:39:35 AMAn offhand comment about Weyland's bloodline or the history of the Corporation. I don't know why you're pressing me on this, it doesn't hold much relevance to the discussion at hand. Ad nauseam ::)
You said "Many other ways"
Give me one that doesn't concern the Alien itself.
So... stuff that's already present in the films and the W-Y Report.
But you theory craft around anyway to deny their relevance.
https://y.yarn.co/9ac2de18-91a3-43b5-9b10-0605cbdeb5a9_text.gif
What stuff that is already present in the films and W-Y Report?
Good use of that gif btw ahaha
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 09:06:58 AM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 09, 2019, 09:06:58 AM
Because there's no Charles Bishop Weyland in the W-Y Report.
But there is;
Peter Weyland, Keiko Yutani, Mitchell Kane &
"The scientists, researchers, engineers who dared to dream the future and create the improbable;
Sir Peter Weyland, Jay Kasic, Dr. Sara de Ville and Michael Bishop."
As for the idea that Michael Bishop's a Weyland?
"Sir Peter Weyland's only legitimate child." -Meredith Vickers W-Y Report.
With no mention of children, crushed under the Juggernaut.
There's literally a book released by 20th Century Fox-
which chronicles the history of the corporation.
You don't get anymore definitive than that.
But there is;
Peter Weyland, Keiko Yutani, Mitchell Kane &
"The scientists, researchers, engineers who dared to dream the future and create the improbable;
Sir Peter Weyland, Jay Kasic, Dr. Sara de Ville and Michael Bishop."
As for the idea that Michael Bishop's a Weyland?
"Sir Peter Weyland's only legitimate child." -Meredith Vickers W-Y Report.
With no mention of children, crushed under the Juggernaut.
There's literally a book released by 20th Century Fox-
which chronicles the history of the corporation.
You don't get anymore definitive than that.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 09, 2019, 09:11:06 AM
Post by: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 09, 2019, 09:11:06 AM
Quote from: David's Creation on Jan 09, 2019, 08:23:12 AM
I'm hoping David kills the space jockey and takes down the derelict with a canister of black goo.
Seeing what it did to the population of Planet 4, I think that would make a fine sci-fi explanation for the fossilized look of the pilot.
I like the idea, problem is how is he gonna send a message afterwards.
A facehugger would make sense in that the pilot crashes because of the "hugging".
When he wakes up and becomes aware of the situation, he sends out the signal before the chestburst happens.
But how does he get hugged if he's wearing his helmet?
Unless David cut him up like a drug smuggling victim and implanted something in him.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 09:14:09 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 09:14:09 AM
So he gets hugged before he has his helmet on.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 09, 2019, 09:25:17 AM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jan 09, 2019, 09:25:17 AM
I like to think the space jockey flew to LV-426 with the cargo, then sent the warning to keep others safely away from it.
Perhaps he had the intention of sacrificing himself and remaining with the ship. Perhaps he planned to escape. Perhaps he'd already been facehugged and knew he was done for, which would explain how he was able to load the eggs into the ship.
Either way, he goes to LV-426 and sends the signal for the purpose of quarantining the xenomorphs that he has taken from David.
David steps out from the shadows with a canister of black goo, revealing that he had stowed away, and attacks the engineer with the pathogen.
Perhaps he had the intention of sacrificing himself and remaining with the ship. Perhaps he planned to escape. Perhaps he'd already been facehugged and knew he was done for, which would explain how he was able to load the eggs into the ship.
Either way, he goes to LV-426 and sends the signal for the purpose of quarantining the xenomorphs that he has taken from David.
David steps out from the shadows with a canister of black goo, revealing that he had stowed away, and attacks the engineer with the pathogen.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 09, 2019, 10:00:31 AM
Post by: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 09, 2019, 10:00:31 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 09:14:09 AM
So he gets hugged before he has his helmet on.
Makes sense. He gets hugged, realises he's doomed and sacrifices himself stealing David's cargo.
Quote from: David's Creation on Jan 09, 2019, 09:25:17 AM
I like to think the space jockey flew to LV-426 with the cargo, then sent the warning to keep others safely away from it.
Perhaps he had the intention of sacrificing himself and remaining with the ship. Perhaps he planned to escape. Perhaps he'd already been facehugged and knew he was done for, which would explain how he was able to load the eggs into the ship.
David steps out from the shadows with a canister of black goo, revealing that he had stowed away, and attacks the engineer with the pathogen.
The sacrifice part makes sense.
In my fantasy, the ship is David's (back-up) plan. He's at the colony as Walter, while producing eggs in an old Engineer ship (Derelict) he found.
The arriving Engineers find this out at some point and one sacrifices himself.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 10:05:03 AM
Post by: SM on Jan 09, 2019, 10:05:03 AM
Would be a nice bookend if one of them picked up an egg and was deliberately hugged.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 09, 2019, 02:22:46 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 09, 2019, 02:22:46 PM
I definitely like this sacrifice idea.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Necronomicon II on Jan 22, 2019, 09:43:19 AM
Post by: Necronomicon II on Jan 22, 2019, 09:43:19 AM
Yeah I like the quarantine idea, makes sense.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 25, 2019, 01:42:19 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 25, 2019, 01:42:19 PM
@Thread - Fix your title:
"[SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR arenot no longer canon films."
"[SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 25, 2019, 03:53:40 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 25, 2019, 03:53:40 PM
Indeed, although;
"[SPOILERS] So Prometheus, Covenant & The W-Y Report confirms that AvP and AvPR are no longer canon."
"[SPOILERS] So Prometheus, Covenant & The W-Y Report confirms that AvP and AvPR are no longer canon."
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 25, 2019, 04:13:15 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 25, 2019, 04:13:15 PM
I think we're both very refreshingly predictable Old One. ;D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Necronomicon II on Jan 26, 2019, 03:23:29 AM
Post by: Necronomicon II on Jan 26, 2019, 03:23:29 AM
Refreshingly penis-y.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: D88M on Jan 26, 2019, 05:55:19 PM
Post by: D88M on Jan 26, 2019, 05:55:19 PM
They were never canon, they never will be.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Jan 26, 2019, 06:09:44 PM
Post by: The Old One on Jan 26, 2019, 06:09:44 PM
They're Canon to each other.
The Predator & AVP 2010.
The Predator & AVP 2010.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: El Pistolero on Jan 28, 2019, 12:25:05 PM
Post by: El Pistolero on Jan 28, 2019, 12:25:05 PM
Whatever they say. We also have to see it from the perspective from a normal moviewatcher person who enjoys the movies without being geeks like us. For them they don't know what the studio says or the movie makers. They see the movie and for them it is a normal continuation of a franchise. We see in Predator the alien scull in the trophy room, we got all the games and comics and we got the movies. Whatever Ridley is saying, it depends on the person who is watching the movie and who is deciding on his own what is canon and what is not. And I don't care much what Ridley is talking, because in my eyes he is not the boss over the franchise.
Another thing is that Fox seems to try hard to build a bigger universe with all that extender material. I think Fox gives also a shit what Ridley says.
Another thing is that Fox seems to try hard to build a bigger universe with all that extender material. I think Fox gives also a shit what Ridley says.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 28, 2019, 02:44:05 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jan 28, 2019, 02:44:05 PM
Quote from: D88M on Jan 26, 2019, 05:55:19 PM
They were never canon, they never will be.
Ugh. This again. People just trying to rewrite reality. AVP was written as a prequel to Alien and sequel to Predator. It was indeed once canon, but had since been retconned out of Alien canon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Oasis Nadrama on Jan 28, 2019, 08:41:59 PM
Post by: Oasis Nadrama on Jan 28, 2019, 08:41:59 PM
Pistolero> I agree. There's not a single canon, there are actually multiple ones, as many canons as there are spectators.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Jan 30, 2019, 06:35:13 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jan 30, 2019, 06:35:13 AM
Quote from: Cauchemar on Jan 28, 2019, 08:41:59 PMI like your style.
Pistolero> I agree. There's not a single canon, there are actually multiple ones, as many canons as there are spectators.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Gash on Mar 07, 2019, 02:07:35 AM
Post by: Gash on Mar 07, 2019, 02:07:35 AM
I find the two franchises so wildly different in tone and execution. I think the only reason the comics blended them really has far more to do with the Cameron / Schwarzenegger affiliations that create that sense of a mash-up of mid 80's styles. I never could relate to the idea at all.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: El Pistolero on Mar 07, 2019, 12:32:37 PM
Post by: El Pistolero on Mar 07, 2019, 12:32:37 PM
I think everyone can choose his own order he wants to watch the movies. For me it will be always
Predator 1-3
AvP 1+2
Alien 1-3
The rest is in my opinion additional fan fiction. I don't want to see a human being in that Pilot's chair in Alien.
And another thing is in Covenant is not one scene that says David created the alien by himself. For me it was always something that where already in the DNA information of the black goo. I think David is not able to create anything and this is his most obvious conflict point.
Predator 1-3
AvP 1+2
Alien 1-3
The rest is in my opinion additional fan fiction. I don't want to see a human being in that Pilot's chair in Alien.
And another thing is in Covenant is not one scene that says David created the alien by himself. For me it was always something that where already in the DNA information of the black goo. I think David is not able to create anything and this is his most obvious conflict point.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: LastSonofKrypton on Mar 07, 2019, 01:03:37 PM
Post by: LastSonofKrypton on Mar 07, 2019, 01:03:37 PM
For me, I just don't watch the AvP movies, Resurrection or Covenant. I get nothing from them. Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 are a perfect trilogy in my mind. I can watch Prometheus once in a while as a standalone Sci Fi/Horror movie. As for the Predator franchise, Predator is a masterpiece, Predator 2 is a worthy sequel and Predators is a fun movie.
Spoiler
I still haven't watched The Predator yet
[close]
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Mar 10, 2019, 05:03:28 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Mar 10, 2019, 05:03:28 PM
Quote from: Gash on Mar 07, 2019, 02:07:35 AMFor me that's part of the appeal, finding a way to play to the strengths of two very different entities and have an interesting story as the result.
I find the two franchises so wildly different in tone and execution. I think the only reason the comics blended them really has far more to do with the Cameron / Schwarzenegger affiliations that create that sense of a mash-up of mid 80's styles. I never could relate to the idea at all.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Predwars24 on Mar 10, 2019, 10:27:36 PM
Post by: Predwars24 on Mar 10, 2019, 10:27:36 PM
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Jan 28, 2019, 08:41:59 PM
Pistolero> I agree. There's not a single canon, there are actually multiple ones, as many canons as there are spectators.
Sounds similar to Godzilla but with the different series it has.
Showa
Heisei
Millennium
Legendary's Monster Verse
Anime Trilogy
All of these have their own continuity but Millennium's movies most of them ignore each other but Godzilla against Mechagodzilla and Tokyo SOS are in the same timeline.
You'd think though with franchises like Alien and Predator and in a time with the MCU they'd try to be a little more consistent only changing the timeline depending on most fans preferences like what Terminator is about to do and what X-Men did do with Days of Future past completely wiping Origins and the other X-Men movies besides First Class. You'd also think with the weird endings of The Predator that were cut that it'd show that Fox is still interested in them having a shared universe, so allowing Ridley all this freedom to change up the timeline like he did in Alien Covenant is strange given that was only a year prior to the release of The Predator. More questions than answers is pretty much how it is for me though.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Sep 26, 2019, 03:36:48 AM
Post by: The Old One on Sep 26, 2019, 03:36:48 AM
Yes, I think now with the Disney purchase that's a real possibility. And because of conflicting material outside the film Alien Anthology, I always considered much of the rest as an alternate continuity.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Sep 26, 2019, 03:49:52 AM
Post by: SM on Sep 26, 2019, 03:49:52 AM
QuoteYou'd think though with franchises like Alien and Predator and in a time with the MCU they'd try to be a little more consistent only changing the timeline depending on most fans preferences
Is not ignoring AvP and AvPR consistent with most fans preferences?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SuperiorIronman on Sep 26, 2019, 02:38:29 PM
Post by: SuperiorIronman on Sep 26, 2019, 02:38:29 PM
Quote from: Predwars24 on Mar 10, 2019, 10:27:36 PMQuote from: Oasis Nadrama on Jan 28, 2019, 08:41:59 PM
Pistolero> I agree. There's not a single canon, there are actually multiple ones, as many canons as there are spectators.
Sounds similar to Godzilla but with the different series it has.
Showa
Heisei
Millennium
Legendary's Monster Verse
Anime Trilogy
All of these have their own continuity but Millennium's movies most of them ignore each other but Godzilla against Mechagodzilla and Tokyo SOS are in the same timeline.
You'd think though with franchises like Alien and Predator and in a time with the MCU they'd try to be a little more consistent only changing the timeline depending on most fans preferences like what Terminator is about to do and what X-Men did do with Days of Future past completely wiping Origins and the other X-Men movies besides First Class. You'd also think with the weird endings of The Predator that were cut that it'd show that Fox is still interested in them having a shared universe, so allowing Ridley all this freedom to change up the timeline like he did in Alien Covenant is strange given that was only a year prior to the release of The Predator. More questions than answers is pretty much how it is for me though.
The Predator franchise actually acknowledges the crossover or at the very least the first movie. The skull in Predator 2 and the spear from AVP in The Predator contradicts eventa in Covenant which says the Alien is recent.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Dingbat on Sep 26, 2019, 07:27:28 PM
Post by: Dingbat on Sep 26, 2019, 07:27:28 PM
The basis for my canon is that all films are canon, if something doesn't add up I just imagine random(false) ways that it sort of makes sense(Even though it doesn't)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Sep 27, 2019, 09:18:11 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Sep 27, 2019, 09:18:11 AM
Quote from: Dingbat on Sep 26, 2019, 07:27:28 PMIf it makes sense for you, then it makes sense. :)
The basis for my canon is that all films are canon, if something doesn't add up I just imagine random(false) ways that it sort of makes sense(Even though it doesn't)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Dingbat on Sep 27, 2019, 04:37:45 PM
Post by: Dingbat on Sep 27, 2019, 04:37:45 PM
Exactly, I even consider The predator to be in the same universe as Blade Runner since they are in the same universe as Alien, I just pretend that wherever The predator is set isn't as developped as where Blade Runner is set.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Predwars24 on Sep 27, 2019, 04:42:35 PM
Post by: Predwars24 on Sep 27, 2019, 04:42:35 PM
Quote from: SM on Sep 26, 2019, 03:49:52 AMQuoteYou'd think though with franchises like Alien and Predator and in a time with the MCU they'd try to be a little more consistent only changing the timeline depending on most fans preferences
Is not ignoring AvP and AvPR consistent with most fans preferences?
Unfortunately not. I'm not saying that's what they're doing, I'm saying that's what they should be doing. It literally makes no sense for one franchise to acknowledge the events and the other not to. Again to reference Marvel who lost the rights of Spider-Man (BTW the deal for him to stay in the MCU is back), they couldn't just have Spider-Man show up in a marvel movie at one point, but here with Fox having the rights to both it makes no sense why they couldn't have fixed it. I don't know what the future holds but one can hope I guess.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Sep 27, 2019, 09:56:41 PM
Post by: SM on Sep 27, 2019, 09:56:41 PM
But I think you'd find "most fans" don't really rate the AvP films very highly, so changing the films to exclude something that's not very popular is completely in line with what happened with Prometheus.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Predwars24 on Sep 28, 2019, 12:03:50 AM
Post by: Predwars24 on Sep 28, 2019, 12:03:50 AM
Quote from: SM on Sep 27, 2019, 09:56:41 PM
But I think you'd find "most fans" don't really rate the AvP films very highly, so changing the films to exclude something that's not very popular is completely in line with what happened with Prometheus.
I understand that. The point of my statement is just that if one franchise is to ignore the events, why can't both? Sorry if my point wasn't made clearly I'm good at that.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Sep 28, 2019, 12:14:22 AM
Post by: The Old One on Sep 28, 2019, 12:14:22 AM
Absolutely, most people with an interest in Alien and Predator didn't enjoy AVP 2004, and the idea a masterpiece of Blade Runner's calibre, with such a unique timeline from most is a part of the (AVP/AVPR/The Predator/AVP 2010) continuity is just laughable. Certain Alien entries? Perhaps, otherwise no. And AVP can be ignored because it's fundamentally a spin-off, and no integration occurred within the mainline franchise.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Sep 28, 2019, 01:52:10 AM
Post by: SM on Sep 28, 2019, 01:52:10 AM
Quote from: Predwars24 on Sep 28, 2019, 12:03:50 AMQuote from: SM on Sep 27, 2019, 09:56:41 PM
But I think you'd find "most fans" don't really rate the AvP films very highly, so changing the films to exclude something that's not very popular is completely in line with what happened with Prometheus.
I understand that. The point of my statement is just that if one franchise is to ignore the events, why can't both? Sorry if my point wasn't made clearly I'm good at that.
Oh, I see. Well of course they could ignore it. Predator chose not though.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Sep 28, 2019, 02:23:26 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Sep 28, 2019, 02:23:26 AM
And then there was Fire and Stone...
(https://media.giphy.com/media/AsgPNpoBnBZ3G/giphy.gif)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/AsgPNpoBnBZ3G/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on Sep 28, 2019, 02:35:01 AM
Post by: Samhain13 on Sep 28, 2019, 02:35:01 AM
Only "reference" to the AVP movies in FS is the blooding with alien blood I think, but that had already appeared on the first AVP comic.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Sep 28, 2019, 04:34:41 AM
Post by: SM on Sep 28, 2019, 04:34:41 AM
It's a crossover comic story.
Not a film.
Not a film.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Sep 28, 2019, 09:34:06 AM
Post by: The Old One on Sep 28, 2019, 09:34:06 AM
And then Fire and Stone, Life and Death and The Rage War sucked and I was right back out.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Sep 28, 2019, 11:50:48 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Sep 28, 2019, 11:50:48 AM
Canon entries can be rough! ;)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Sep 29, 2019, 12:18:06 AM
Post by: The Old One on Sep 29, 2019, 12:18:06 AM
Not canon anymore according to the reliable source we got, if nothing else it isn't part of the Alien Continuity at all, good riddance.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Sep 29, 2019, 12:28:57 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Sep 29, 2019, 12:28:57 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Sep 29, 2019, 12:18:06 AM
Not canon anymore according to the reliable source we got or part of the Alien Continuity at all, good riddance.
More reliable than the Weyland-Yutani Report? Who or what source is that?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Sep 29, 2019, 12:31:49 AM
Post by: The Old One on Sep 29, 2019, 12:31:49 AM
SM, and none of the above is even mentioned in the W-Y Report. Only the (of equal quality to the mentioned) DH Alien Trilogy is.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Sep 29, 2019, 12:44:11 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Sep 29, 2019, 12:44:11 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Sep 29, 2019, 12:31:49 AM
SM, and none of the above is even mentioned in the W-Y Report. Only the (of equal quality) DH Alien Trilogy is.
Errr okay...
And Fire and Stone is.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Sep 29, 2019, 01:00:01 AM
Post by: The Old One on Sep 29, 2019, 01:00:01 AM
Yes, you're right, pity- but it is an easily changed thing.
Say the ships crashed into eachother as the planet is covered in a deadly centuries long storm destroying everything to cover up the facilities.
I just wish someone was in charge to ensure something so unbearably awful as the written story of F&S/L&D/The Rage War and Titan's Alien Trilogy isn't considered part of the continuity in the first place.
Say the ships crashed into eachother as the planet is covered in a deadly centuries long storm destroying everything to cover up the facilities.
I just wish someone was in charge to ensure something so unbearably awful as the written story of F&S/L&D/The Rage War and Titan's Alien Trilogy isn't considered part of the continuity in the first place.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on Sep 29, 2019, 01:01:18 AM
Post by: Samhain13 on Sep 29, 2019, 01:01:18 AM
WY Report was meant to be in the same continuity as FS and the Titan Trilogy.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Sep 29, 2019, 01:06:44 AM
Post by: The Old One on Sep 29, 2019, 01:06:44 AM
Perhaps it requires a re-release to solve that issue then.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Sep 29, 2019, 10:33:16 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Sep 29, 2019, 10:33:16 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Sep 28, 2019, 12:14:22 AMAvP wasn't treated as a spin-off when it was being made, nor was it when it was released.
Absolutely, most people with an interest in Alien and Predator didn't enjoy AVP 2004, and the idea a masterpiece of Blade Runner's calibre, with such a unique timeline from most is a part of the (AVP/AVPR/The Predator/AVP 2010) continuity is just laughable. Certain Alien entries? Perhaps, otherwise no. And AVP can be ignored because it's fundamentally a spin-off, and no integration occurred within the mainline franchise.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Sep 29, 2019, 12:18:06 AMCanon is what you want it to be. Even if it was "official", nothing is stopping you from disregarding it anyway.
Not canon anymore according to the reliable source we got, if nothing else it isn't part of the Alien Continuity at all, good riddance.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Sep 29, 2019, 01:00:01 AMThat's some pretty hefty goalpost-shifting
Yes, you're right, pity- but it is an easily changed thing.
"Good thing it isn't canon!"
"Um actually it still is"
"Oh, well good thing we can still get rid of it somehow!"
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Sep 29, 2019, 01:00:01 AMAlternately, there are a good number of people who like some or all of those things and don't want them stricken from the record.
I just wish someone was in charge to ensure something so unbearably awful as the written story of F&S/L&D/The Rage War and Titan's Alien Trilogy isn't considered part of the continuity.
The easier solution is to disregard them for yourself.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Sep 29, 2019, 11:22:23 AM
Post by: The Old One on Sep 29, 2019, 11:22:23 AM
You obviously misread, the only thing I admitted I was incorrect about is the fact the story got a mention within the W-Y Report, I still regard it as officially non-canon.
Because SM's word is definitely reliable.
Because SM's word is definitely reliable.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Sep 29, 2019, 11:41:30 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Sep 29, 2019, 11:41:30 AM
That doesn't really change anything I said.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Sep 29, 2019, 11:54:16 AM
Post by: The Old One on Sep 29, 2019, 11:54:16 AM
Yes it does, specifically the middle part, but ok.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: David Weyland on Sep 29, 2019, 01:28:39 PM
Post by: David Weyland on Sep 29, 2019, 01:28:39 PM
The 2 Prequels and the four films are the Alien Canon
Everything else is irrelevant or garnish to expand concepts whilst simultaneously rinsing your wallet
Everything else is irrelevant or garnish to expand concepts whilst simultaneously rinsing your wallet
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Sep 29, 2019, 01:40:29 PM
Post by: The Old One on Sep 29, 2019, 01:40:29 PM
Apart from a select number, yes- you're genuinely right.
I put The Cold Forge above most of the Alien Anthology though.
I put The Cold Forge above most of the Alien Anthology though.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Sep 29, 2019, 04:54:43 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Sep 29, 2019, 04:54:43 PM
Quote from: David Weyland on Sep 29, 2019, 01:28:39 PMThat's one way to look at it, sure.
The 2 Prequels and the four films are the Alien Canon
Everything else is irrelevant or garnish to expand concepts whilst simultaneously rinsing your wallet
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 08:56:37 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 08:56:37 PM
God help me, but I actually prefer AvP as a prequel over Prometheus and Covenant.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Sep 29, 2019, 09:04:30 PM
Post by: SM on Sep 29, 2019, 09:04:30 PM
Not even God can help you.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on Sep 29, 2019, 09:06:22 PM
Post by: Samhain13 on Sep 29, 2019, 09:06:22 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 08:56:37 PM
God help me, but I actually prefer AvP as a prequel over Prometheus and Covenant.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPrsSsCG.gif&hash=95decab052f4b2654eb01c47d224c466b215ec2a)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 09:07:45 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 09:07:45 PM
Quote from: SM on Sep 29, 2019, 09:04:30 PM
Not even God can help you.
That even includes the egg-barfing predalien.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Sep 29, 2019, 09:09:25 PM
Post by: SM on Sep 29, 2019, 09:09:25 PM
You go to Hell.
You go to Hell and you die.
You go to Hell and you die.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: 426Buddy on Sep 29, 2019, 09:13:22 PM
Post by: 426Buddy on Sep 29, 2019, 09:13:22 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 09:07:45 PMQuote from: SM on Sep 29, 2019, 09:04:30 PM
Not even God can help you.
That even includes the egg-barfing predalien.
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/1iUZa41YxKQtaJq0/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51acf54288f47171e55cff89a13536f52a94b0edacf&rid=giphy.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on Sep 29, 2019, 09:15:45 PM
Post by: Samhain13 on Sep 29, 2019, 09:15:45 PM
Let's all respect the diversity of opinions.
I think Prometheus and Covenant are better than the AVP movies. But since PCJ and AVP2010 follow up those movies and I liked them more than the prequels, I would rather pick a timeline that included AVP/AVPR/PCJ/AVP2010 over one with the prequels.
I think Prometheus and Covenant are better than the AVP movies. But since PCJ and AVP2010 follow up those movies and I liked them more than the prequels, I would rather pick a timeline that included AVP/AVPR/PCJ/AVP2010 over one with the prequels.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Sep 30, 2019, 01:35:44 AM
Post by: Huggs on Sep 30, 2019, 01:35:44 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 08:56:37 PM
God help me, but I actually prefer AvP as a prequel over Prometheus and Covenant.
If you had said AVPR, I'd have been right there with you.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Sep 30, 2019, 01:38:14 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Sep 30, 2019, 01:38:14 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 08:56:37 PM
God help me, but I actually prefer AvP as a prequel over Prometheus and Covenant.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 09:07:45 PM
That even includes the egg-barfing predalien.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgiphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fmedia%2FS3Ot3hZ5bcy8o%2Fgiphy.gif&hash=5077a142ce3675a5d8a797b406343ebc41916ddc)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Sep 30, 2019, 02:03:08 AM
Post by: Huggs on Sep 30, 2019, 02:03:08 AM
We're a merry bunch of blasphemers.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/lOsAovYbgOTra/giphy.gif)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/lOsAovYbgOTra/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Sep 30, 2019, 03:01:53 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Sep 30, 2019, 03:01:53 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 08:56:37 PMWell I mean, its got more sympathetic characters (especially Weyland, which is refreshing) and it doesn't f**k with the Alien or Predator as a creature. I can totally understand preferring AvP - the problem isn't the movie's concept, it's the execution. If you had someone of Ridley Scott's caliber taking the skill and filmmaking prowess shown in 'Prometheus' and used it to make 'AvP', I think the reception would have been a helluva lot different.
God help me, but I actually prefer AvP as a prequel over Prometheus and Covenant.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Sep 30, 2019, 03:42:43 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Sep 30, 2019, 03:42:43 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Sep 30, 2019, 03:01:53 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 08:56:37 PMWell I mean, its got more sympathetic characters (especially Weyland, which is refreshing) and it doesn't f**k with the Alien or Predator as a creature. I can totally understand preferring AvP - the problem isn't the movie's concept, it's the execution. If you had someone of Ridley Scott's caliber taking the skill and filmmaking prowess shown in 'Prometheus' and used it to make 'AvP', I think the reception would have been a helluva lot different.
God help me, but I actually prefer AvP as a prequel over Prometheus and Covenant.
Indeed!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kimarhi on Sep 30, 2019, 04:09:24 AM
Post by: Kimarhi on Sep 30, 2019, 04:09:24 AM
the skill and care he showed in Alien you mean.
Now he is just a mercenary mass producing films with half baked ideas for his next payday.
Now he is just a mercenary mass producing films with half baked ideas for his next payday.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Sep 30, 2019, 06:13:42 AM
Post by: SiL on Sep 30, 2019, 06:13:42 AM
Scott approaches every film with the same eye for design and visual storytelling. He took Alien because he thought it was an opportunity to entertain people, something he thought he failed to do on The Duelists. The man's never been particularly interested in avant garde cinema, he's always sought to entertain. Tastes change and he's changed what he makes accordingly.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on Sep 30, 2019, 06:19:31 AM
Post by: Kradan on Sep 30, 2019, 06:19:31 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 09:07:45 PM
That even includes the egg-barfing predalien.
Quote from: SM on Sep 29, 2019, 09:09:25 PM
You go to Hell.
You go to Hell and you die.
I'm gonna pray for salvation of this poor soul . Who's with me ?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: PsyKore on Oct 02, 2019, 12:45:00 AM
Post by: PsyKore on Oct 02, 2019, 12:45:00 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Sep 30, 2019, 03:01:53 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 08:56:37 PMWell I mean, its got more sympathetic characters (especially Weyland, which is refreshing) and it doesn't f**k with the Alien or Predator as a creature. I can totally understand preferring AvP - the problem isn't the movie's concept, it's the execution. If you had someone of Ridley Scott's caliber taking the skill and filmmaking prowess shown in 'Prometheus' and used it to make 'AvP', I think the reception would have been a helluva lot different.
God help me, but I actually prefer AvP as a prequel over Prometheus and Covenant.
Sympathetic how? Because that dude I can't remember showed a picture of his kids before he died?
Lance Henrikson also doesn't count because of his iconic status.
And it doesn't f**k with the creatures? Are you sure? Apart from the generic portrayal of them and odd designs, there's many f**kings going on with the creatures. Aliens already on earth, stripped of their mystique, being used as a right of passage rituals for weird footballer Predators who like cold weather and who have also somehow impossibly weaved their existence into human civilisations. All of this shit is shoe-horned and is contradictory.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 02, 2019, 02:16:26 AM
Post by: SM on Oct 02, 2019, 02:16:26 AM
Quote from: Kradan on Sep 30, 2019, 06:19:31 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 09:07:45 PM
That even includes the egg-barfing predalien.Quote from: SM on Sep 29, 2019, 09:09:25 PM
You go to Hell.
You go to Hell and you die.
I'm gonna pray for salvation of this poor soul . Who's with me ?
No prayers.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 02, 2019, 04:48:38 AM
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 02, 2019, 04:48:38 AM
I'd even sweeten the deal by including The Predator.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 02, 2019, 04:52:19 AM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 02, 2019, 04:52:19 AM
There is no curse in Elvish, Entish or the tongues of Men for this treachery. Seriously though, I'd yet erase all of them (AVP, AVPR, The Predator) to retain the Prequels, even Prometheus yes, because even though the Prequel series is seriously flawed, ten minutes of Covenant is more interesting than the other three put together.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 02, 2019, 12:37:16 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 02, 2019, 12:37:16 PM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 02, 2019, 04:52:19 AM
There is no curse in Elvish, Entish or the tongues of Men for this treachery. Seriously though, I'd yet erase all of them (AVP, AVPR, The Predator) to retain the Prequels, even Prometheus yes, because even though the Prequel series is seriously flawed, ten minutes of Covenant is more interesting than the other three put together.
Err... which ten minutes? ;D
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcrossoverse.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F05%2Fflute.gif&hash=731f6c5934716c570aa94176b160cd39bac3b502)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on Oct 02, 2019, 07:20:53 PM
Post by: Kradan on Oct 02, 2019, 07:20:53 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 02, 2019, 04:48:38 AM
I'd even sweeten the deal by including The Predator.
Oh yeah !
(https://www.scified.com/u/fugitive-predator.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 02, 2019, 08:11:56 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 02, 2019, 08:11:56 PM
Do we have a deal or do I have to include DotS too?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 02, 2019, 08:45:16 PM
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 02, 2019, 08:45:16 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 02, 2019, 04:48:38 AM
I'd even sweeten the deal by including The Predator.
Easy there.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: 426Buddy on Oct 02, 2019, 10:05:31 PM
Post by: 426Buddy on Oct 02, 2019, 10:05:31 PM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 02, 2019, 04:52:19 AM
There is no curse in Elvish, Entish or the tongues of Men for this treachery. Seriously though, I'd yet erase all of them (AVP, AVPR, The Predator) to retain the Prequels, even Prometheus yes, because even though the Prequel series is seriously flawed, ten minutes of Covenant is more interesting than the other three put together.
Agreed
I have developed a a kind of soft spot for AvP though. It's not a good film and if I think about it too much I'll start to hate it again.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 02, 2019, 10:45:28 PM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 02, 2019, 10:45:28 PM
The intro of Covenant, the prologue is perfect. Nearly anything about the Neomorph, and the ending.
Not all ten minutes, but together? More.
Not all ten minutes, but together? More.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Oct 02, 2019, 11:27:41 PM
Post by: Huggs on Oct 02, 2019, 11:27:41 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 02, 2019, 04:48:38 AM
I'd even sweeten the deal by including The Predator.
Why Brudda?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 03, 2019, 02:31:13 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 03, 2019, 02:31:13 AM
Quote from: PsyKore on Oct 02, 2019, 12:45:00 AMSympathetic because they're interesting and I actually gave a shit when they died. Verheiden and Miller had an actually interesting character arc and dynamic together.Quote from: Xenomrph on Sep 30, 2019, 03:01:53 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 08:56:37 PMWell I mean, its got more sympathetic characters (especially Weyland, which is refreshing) and it doesn't f**k with the Alien or Predator as a creature. I can totally understand preferring AvP - the problem isn't the movie's concept, it's the execution. If you had someone of Ridley Scott's caliber taking the skill and filmmaking prowess shown in 'Prometheus' and used it to make 'AvP', I think the reception would have been a helluva lot different.
God help me, but I actually prefer AvP as a prequel over Prometheus and Covenant.
Sympathetic how? Because that dude I can't remember showed a picture of his kids before he died?
Lance Henrikson also doesn't count because of his iconic status.
And it doesn't f**k with the creatures? Are you sure? Apart from the generic portrayal of them and odd designs, there's many f**kings going on with the creatures. Aliens already on earth, stripped of their mystique, being used as a right of passage rituals for weird footballer Predators who like cold weather and who have also somehow impossibly weaved their existence into human civilisations. All of this shit is shoe-horned and is contradictory.
Charles Weyland is a better realized character because he seeks immortality, but in the sense that he wants to leave a lasting mark on society while also making it a better place (building better worlds). He knows he's dying and he's come to terms with that, and he wants to have a legacy.
Peter Weyland is just an asshole who is willing to condemn everyone else to death so long as he gets to be literally immortal. He's a cartoon villain.
What exactly is "generic" about their portrayal, and what's contradictory? Also, nobody said the Predators "like" cold weather, it just happens to take place there. Also the Aliens all get free and murder the shit out of everybody.
As for "impossibly weaving" the Predators into human history, it's more convincing than Prometheus turning us into science experiments of another species that are a "100% genetic match", a literal impossibility given what the movie shows us. :P
You might not have liked the execution in AvP, but it didn't fundamentally alter the Aliens (or Predators) as creatures in the way that the prequels altered the Alien and the Space Jockey.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 03, 2019, 02:38:09 AM
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 03, 2019, 02:38:09 AM
In regards to the cold weather, Predators probably hate that and might feel more discomfort on it than us, but that's point. They weren't there to hunt for shits and giggles, it was a rite of passage to become big bois.
I didn't like the idea of neither the Predators or the Space Jockeys having been involved with teaching/creating ancient humans. At least AVP didn't try to retcon human evolution.
I didn't like the idea of neither the Predators or the Space Jockeys having been involved with teaching/creating ancient humans. At least AVP didn't try to retcon human evolution.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: SM on Oct 03, 2019, 03:26:31 AM
Post by: SM on Oct 03, 2019, 03:26:31 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Oct 02, 2019, 10:05:31 PMQuote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 02, 2019, 04:52:19 AM
There is no curse in Elvish, Entish or the tongues of Men for this treachery. Seriously though, I'd yet erase all of them (AVP, AVPR, The Predator) to retain the Prequels, even Prometheus yes, because even though the Prequel series is seriously flawed, ten minutes of Covenant is more interesting than the other three put together.
Agreed
I have developed a a kind of soft spot for AvP though. It's not a good film and if I think about it too much I'll start to hate it again.
Similar. I don't got a soft spot for it, but on the times I think it's not that bad, I watch it and realise I was mistaken.
And I just noticed a 'blink and you'll miss it' continuity error. There's a couple of quick shots after Stafford is stabbed with the spear, then there's an angle on Lex turning to look at her pickaxe. In the background Stafford is struggling with the net and not stabbed.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 03, 2019, 10:24:33 AM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 03, 2019, 10:24:33 AM
Yeah, I rewatch every three or so years to see if I change my mind, I even got a really gorgeous Steelbook, that's honestly higher quality than the film itself.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Oct 03, 2019, 10:30:57 AM
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Oct 03, 2019, 10:30:57 AM
I swing between the "it's not that bad" and "urgh" moods when it comes to the first film. The last rewatch earlier this year was an "urgh". I figure I'm due to enjoy it next time around.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Oct 03, 2019, 10:39:35 AM
Post by: SiL on Oct 03, 2019, 10:39:35 AM
I've settled on "It's not what it could've been but at least they tried. They failed. But they tried."
Sometimes I want some AvP action and if it's between that and AvPR, well...
Sometimes I want some AvP action and if it's between that and AvPR, well...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 03, 2019, 11:10:53 AM
Post by: SM on Oct 03, 2019, 11:10:53 AM
Choose one of the video games instead.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Oct 03, 2019, 11:20:48 AM
Post by: SiL on Oct 03, 2019, 11:20:48 AM
Sometimes I want some cinematic AvP action, and if it's between that and AvPR, well...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 03, 2019, 11:22:53 AM
Post by: SM on Oct 03, 2019, 11:22:53 AM
Watch Aliens, then Predator back to back.
I'll get my coat...
I'll get my coat...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Oct 03, 2019, 11:38:09 AM
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Oct 03, 2019, 11:38:09 AM
Am still waiting for my AvP anime.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 03, 2019, 01:27:34 PM
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 03, 2019, 01:27:34 PM
That would be great. There must be someone in Japan that wants to buy the franchise from Disney. Then I can have Aliens and Predator screaming at each other like it was Dragon Ball.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Predwars24 on Oct 03, 2019, 01:32:43 PM
Post by: Predwars24 on Oct 03, 2019, 01:32:43 PM
Honestly hope for at least one final attempt for AVP in film to see if someone could make it work. After The Predator though asking for a good movie that doesn't try to do something really stupid seems beyond impossible.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: The Kurgan on Oct 03, 2019, 01:39:41 PM
Post by: The Kurgan on Oct 03, 2019, 01:39:41 PM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Oct 03, 2019, 01:27:34 PM
That would be great. There must be someone in Japan that wants to buy the franchise from Disney. Then I can have Aliens and Predator screaming at each other like it was Dragon Ball.
The super preds would be a lot more blond in anime AVP.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Necronomicon II on Oct 03, 2019, 05:19:24 PM
Post by: Necronomicon II on Oct 03, 2019, 05:19:24 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 03, 2019, 02:31:13 AMQuote from: PsyKore on Oct 02, 2019, 12:45:00 AMSympathetic because they're interesting and I actually gave a shit when they died. Verheiden and Miller had an actually interesting character arc and dynamic together.Quote from: Xenomrph on Sep 30, 2019, 03:01:53 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Sep 29, 2019, 08:56:37 PMWell I mean, its got more sympathetic characters (especially Weyland, which is refreshing) and it doesn't f**k with the Alien or Predator as a creature. I can totally understand preferring AvP - the problem isn't the movie's concept, it's the execution. If you had someone of Ridley Scott's caliber taking the skill and filmmaking prowess shown in 'Prometheus' and used it to make 'AvP', I think the reception would have been a helluva lot different.
God help me, but I actually prefer AvP as a prequel over Prometheus and Covenant.
Sympathetic how? Because that dude I can't remember showed a picture of his kids before he died?
Lance Henrikson also doesn't count because of his iconic status.
And it doesn't f**k with the creatures? Are you sure? Apart from the generic portrayal of them and odd designs, there's many f**kings going on with the creatures. Aliens already on earth, stripped of their mystique, being used as a right of passage rituals for weird footballer Predators who like cold weather and who have also somehow impossibly weaved their existence into human civilisations. All of this shit is shoe-horned and is contradictory.
Charles Weyland is a better realized character because he seeks immortality, but in the sense that he wants to leave a lasting mark on society while also making it a better place (building better worlds). He knows he's dying and he's come to terms with that, and he wants to have a legacy.
Peter Weyland is just an asshole who is willing to condemn everyone else to death so long as he gets to be literally immortal. He's a cartoon villain.
What exactly is "generic" about their portrayal, and what's contradictory? Also, nobody said the Predators "like" cold weather, it just happens to take place there. Also the Aliens all get free and murder the shit out of everybody.
As for "impossibly weaving" the Predators into human history, it's more convincing than Prometheus turning us into science experiments of another species that are a "100% genetic match", a literal impossibility given what the movie shows us. :P
You might not have liked the execution in AvP, but it didn't fundamentally alter the Aliens (or Predators) as creatures in the way that the prequels altered the Alien and the Space Jockey.
To be fair it never said "100% match," just "dna match". We have a 17 percent "match" with daffodils, for example. No exact percentage was shown.
It's also impossible for ancient mysterious organisms to be evolutionarily pre-adapted to infect and provide oxygen for human beings without an established history of co-evolution, and look suspiciously like human genitalia for some reason. Who knew creatures light years away would be so bound phenotypically to terrestrial sex anatomy :D Thank you I'm here all week. :D ;D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 03, 2019, 11:32:06 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 03, 2019, 11:32:06 PM
Are you sure on the 100% thing? I could have sworn it was pretty specific on that, but I won't be able to check until I get home.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 04, 2019, 02:08:38 AM
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 04, 2019, 02:08:38 AM
I looked at the scene, no "100%", but the "DNA Match" made me assume it was fully matched.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 04, 2019, 04:36:08 AM
Post by: SM on Oct 04, 2019, 04:36:08 AM
Per the characters of his film, he did say that.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 04, 2019, 04:36:23 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 04, 2019, 04:36:23 AM
The characters are as different from the Engineers as the Americans are from the Chinese. The Engineers are humans, this is science fiction and I'm sure Ridley Scott wanted to say that: they're us.
It makes sense that David is the creator of the Alien. He has studied the Biology of the Engineers which is very similar, if not one and the same, to ours. It makes sense that the parasite was originally designed for humans.
I remember Ridley saying inside the jockey suit there is a humanoid. I thought he had said human. My bad.
It makes sense that David is the creator of the Alien. He has studied the Biology of the Engineers which is very similar, if not one and the same, to ours. It makes sense that the parasite was originally designed for humans.
Quote from: SM on Oct 04, 2019, 04:36:08 AM
Per the characters of his film, he did say that.
I remember Ridley saying inside the jockey suit there is a humanoid. I thought he had said human. My bad.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 04, 2019, 05:04:30 AM
Post by: SM on Oct 04, 2019, 05:04:30 AM
Oh he probably did, but my point was more with Shaw saying "It's us" and "We came from them", he's conveying what he wants to the audience.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 04, 2019, 05:47:42 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 04, 2019, 05:47:42 AM
Oh! indeed. But what about subtext? I bet there are mind blowing thoughts from Riddles himself hidden there. 8)
(https://i.imgur.com/4rD3IdD.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/4rD3IdD.jpg)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 04, 2019, 06:01:48 AM
Post by: SM on Oct 04, 2019, 06:01:48 AM
Pretty sure in this instance it's just text.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 04, 2019, 02:14:23 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 04, 2019, 02:14:23 PM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Oct 03, 2019, 02:38:09 AM
In regards to the cold weather, Predators probably hate that and might feel more discomfort on it than us, but that's point. They weren't there to hunt for shits and giggles, it was a rite of passage to become big bois.
Of course it wasn't always snow and frostbite there.
Personally, I just view the cold environment as a "wouldn't it be cool" decision, a product of Paul W. S. Anderson's love for John Carpenter's The Thing followed by a "screw it, it's cool" to anyone bringing up any contradicting Predator lore that was setup before it. And don't get me started on those Predator ships! >:(
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 04, 2019, 02:29:01 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 04, 2019, 02:29:01 PM
According to my Google-Fu, Antarctica froze over 30 million years ago: long before modern humans walked the Earth. I therefore can't help but wonder why the predators built a pyramid there complete with a sacrificial chamber meant for humans.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔈𝔦𝔤𝔥𝔱𝔥 𝔓𝔞𝔰𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔤𝔢𝔯 on Oct 04, 2019, 06:29:22 PM
Post by: 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔈𝔦𝔤𝔥𝔱𝔥 𝔓𝔞𝔰𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔤𝔢𝔯 on Oct 04, 2019, 06:29:22 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 04, 2019, 02:29:01 PM
According to my Google-Fu, Antarctica froze over 30 million years ago: long before modern humans walked the Earth. I therefore can't help but wonder why the predators built a pyramid there complete with a sacrificial chamber meant for humans.
It's a great place to hide such a facility. Antarctica is still a very under-explored continent even in this day and age. They're still discovering new species of sea life there. The Predators would have been aware that man would evolve and eventually explore every nook and cranny of the planet thoroughly bar the very most inhospitable places.
And if the Predators should lose control of the Aliens then it's a very contained place. There's no risk of outbreak near large population centers as we saw in the flashback scenes.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: OmegaZilla on Oct 04, 2019, 06:46:55 PM
Post by: OmegaZilla on Oct 04, 2019, 06:46:55 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 04, 2019, 02:29:01 PMit obv is an alternate history where antarctica didn't freeze over till there was a civilization in it
According to my Google-Fu, Antarctica froze over 30 million years ago: long before modern humans walked the Earth. I therefore can't help but wonder why the predators built a pyramid there complete with a sacrificial chamber meant for humans.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 04, 2019, 06:57:05 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 04, 2019, 06:57:05 PM
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Oct 04, 2019, 06:29:22 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Oct 04, 2019, 02:29:01 PM
According to my Google-Fu, Antarctica froze over 30 million years ago: long before modern humans walked the Earth. I therefore can't help but wonder why the predators built a pyramid there complete with a sacrificial chamber meant for humans.
It's a great place to hide such a facility. Antarctica is still a very under-explored continent even in this day and age. They're still discovering new species of sea life there. The Predators would have been aware that man would evolve and eventually explore every nook and cranny of the planet thoroughly bar the very most inhospitable places.
And if the Predators should lose control of the Aliens then it's a very contained place. There's no risk of outbreak near large population centers as we saw in the flashback scenes.
The places that test the physical and mental limits of human beings are the most similar to an alien planet (arid or frozen deserts). In addition, the deep sea. I bet there are many species there, waiting to be discovered.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 04, 2019, 07:23:41 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 04, 2019, 07:23:41 PM
Quote from: Omegamorph on Oct 04, 2019, 06:46:55 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Oct 04, 2019, 02:29:01 PM
According to my Google-Fu, Antarctica froze over 30 million years ago: long before modern humans walked the Earth. I therefore can't help but wonder why the predators built a pyramid there complete with a sacrificial chamber meant for humans.
it obv is an alternate history where antarctica didn't freeze over till there was a civilization in it
That or the predators brought ancient humans with them to that pyramid whenever it was time for their rite. Otherwise, that's a pretty dang different alternate history since it involves our planet's geological past.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 04, 2019, 07:28:28 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 04, 2019, 07:28:28 PM
Quote from: Omegamorph on Oct 04, 2019, 06:46:55 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Oct 04, 2019, 02:29:01 PMit obv is an alternate history where antarctica didn't freeze over till there was a civilization in it
According to my Google-Fu, Antarctica froze over 30 million years ago: long before modern humans walked the Earth. I therefore can't help but wonder why the predators built a pyramid there complete with a sacrificial chamber meant for humans.
Indeed. Many of these fringe concepts come from pseudoscientific theories, conspiracies and even mythology.
Quote from: WikipediaIn Greek mythology the Hyperboreans were a race of giants who lived "beyond the North Wind". The Greeks thought that Boreas, the god of the North Wind (one of the Anemoi, or "Winds") lived in Thrace, and therefore Hyperborea indicates that it is a region beyond Thrace.
This land was supposed to be perfect, with the sun shining twenty-four hours a day, which to modern ears suggests a possible location within the Arctic Circle during the midnight sun-time of year. However, it is also possible that Hyperborea had no real physical location at all, for according to the classical Greek poet Pindar...
Hyperborea.Quote from: Jason Colavitothe idea of pyramids buried in the frozen Antarctic must send shivers of delight up the spines of the supporters of the Flem-Aths, who popularized the Antarctica-as-Atlantis theory in the 1990s.
Pyramids in Antarctica? Where's the Proof?Quote from: Jason ColavitoWhile At the Mountains of Madness was a work of fiction, a sort of horrific inversion of Hyperborea at the antipodes, a determined group of ufologists and fringe historians have been trying desperately to make it a reality. Maybe Charles Hapgood and Graham Hancock did too good a job imagining Antarctica as the home a lost Ice Age civilization. Or maybe Antarctica is just the only place left on Earth where an alien city could plausibly exist without someone noticing.
The Conspiracy about the Lost Alien City in Antarctica Turns from "At the Mountains of Madness" to "The Thing"Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 04, 2019, 07:23:41 PMQuote from: Omegamorph on Oct 04, 2019, 06:46:55 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Oct 04, 2019, 02:29:01 PM
According to my Google-Fu, Antarctica froze over 30 million years ago: long before modern humans walked the Earth. I therefore can't help but wonder why the predators built a pyramid there complete with a sacrificial chamber meant for humans.
it obv is an alternate history where antarctica didn't freeze over till there was a civilization in it
That or the predators brought ancient humans with them to that pyramid whenever it was time for their rite. Otherwise, that's a pretty dang different alternate history since it involves our planet's geological past.
Head canon, but maybe they had found an unknown or utterly lost human civilization living in Antarctica. I wonder if Voodoo knows something.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 04, 2019, 09:20:23 PM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 04, 2019, 09:20:23 PM
Prometheus, as it is, even unbelievable is more believable than AVP's continuity because of the ambiguity.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 04, 2019, 09:47:05 PM
Post by: SM on Oct 04, 2019, 09:47:05 PM
None of AvP takes place in Antarctica apart from one shot of a helicopter flying over the Ross Ice Shelf.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 05, 2019, 12:28:36 AM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 05, 2019, 12:28:36 AM
Yes, true.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 01:37:40 AM
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 01:37:40 AM
I never knew that Bouvet Island was so far away from the actual continent.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 05, 2019, 02:03:49 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 05, 2019, 02:03:49 AM
Indeed! :o
(https://i.imgur.com/tO3slRp.png?1)
However, it is a safe place for a for a pyramid, safe from modern humans (that is why it is isolated). Then it is time to release the bait to attract a handful of unlucky humans. Also, if something goes wrong, the Alien infestation cannot leave the island. Think of an Anthrax Island. 🤔
(https://i.imgur.com/tO3slRp.png?1)
However, it is a safe place for a for a pyramid, safe from modern humans (that is why it is isolated). Then it is time to release the bait to attract a handful of unlucky humans. Also, if something goes wrong, the Alien infestation cannot leave the island. Think of an Anthrax Island. 🤔
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 02:07:50 AM
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 02:07:50 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 05, 2019, 02:03:49 AMAlso, if something goes wrong, the Alien infestation cannot leave the island. Think of an Anthrax Island. 🤔
Spoiler
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv7_7dSbaOk
[close]
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 05, 2019, 02:13:22 AM
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 05, 2019, 02:13:22 AM
There was a ship with like hundreds of Predators there. Those aliens weren't going anywhere.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 05, 2019, 02:37:55 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 05, 2019, 02:37:55 AM
But why the predators built a pyramid there?
I agree, But I feel empathy for Charles Bishop Weyland. He just wanted to be remembered. On the other hand, Peter Weyland was an egomaniac and selfish man, obsessed with fairy tales, in the quest for biological immortality.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 04, 2019, 09:20:23 PM
Prometheus, as it is, even unbelievable is more believable than AVP's continuity because of the ambiguity.
I agree, But I feel empathy for Charles Bishop Weyland. He just wanted to be remembered. On the other hand, Peter Weyland was an egomaniac and selfish man, obsessed with fairy tales, in the quest for biological immortality.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Oct 05, 2019, 02:59:41 AM
Post by: Huggs on Oct 05, 2019, 02:59:41 AM
Chuck was a winner.
Pete was a wiener.
Pete was a wiener.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 03:22:52 AM
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 03:22:52 AM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Oct 05, 2019, 02:13:22 AM
There was a ship with like hundreds of Predators there. Those aliens weren't going anywhere.
If they made it to Australia, they'd just fit right in with the rest of its lethal wildlife.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 05, 2019, 03:51:45 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 05, 2019, 03:51:45 AM
Beyond the "Here Be Dragons", I can't help but wonder what make an Aussiemorph worthy of its name, maybe more teeth or poison ???
(https://i.imgur.com/01dUp0c.gif)
Even if they take over the continent, Sharks are waiting.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/BpOfLsWbEULCM/giphy.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/01dUp0c.gif)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 03:22:52 AMQuote from: Samhain13 on Oct 05, 2019, 02:13:22 AM
There was a ship with like hundreds of Predators there. Those aliens weren't going anywhere.
If they made it to Australia, they'd just fit right in with the rest of its lethal wildlife.
Even if they take over the continent, Sharks are waiting.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/BpOfLsWbEULCM/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 05, 2019, 06:22:47 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 05, 2019, 06:22:47 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 04, 2019, 02:29:01 PMAside from it being an isolated location that's meant to test the Predators, the movie is also one big retelling of 'At the Mountains of Madness', which is set in Antarctica.
According to my Google-Fu, Antarctica froze over 30 million years ago: long before modern humans walked the Earth. I therefore can't help but wonder why the predators built a pyramid there complete with a sacrificial chamber meant for humans.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 05, 2019, 07:23:03 AM
Post by: SM on Oct 05, 2019, 07:23:03 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 05, 2019, 02:03:49 AM
Indeed! :o
https://i.imgur.com/tO3slRp.png?1
However, it is a safe place for a for a pyramid, safe from modern humans (that is why it is isolated). Then it is time to release the bait to attract a handful of unlucky humans. Also, if something goes wrong, the Alien infestation cannot leave the island. Think of an Anthrax Island. 🤔
Bouvetoya was a good location for the film. Why they kept going on about it being in Antarctica, and showing bogus maps was a bit baffling.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 05, 2019, 09:57:38 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 05, 2019, 09:57:38 AM
Quote from: SM on Oct 05, 2019, 07:23:03 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 05, 2019, 02:03:49 AM
Indeed! :o
https://i.imgur.com/tO3slRp.png?1
However, it is a safe place for a for a pyramid, safe from modern humans (that is why it is isolated). Then it is time to release the bait to attract a handful of unlucky humans. Also, if something goes wrong, the Alien infestation cannot leave the island. Think of an Anthrax Island. 🤔
Bouvetoya was a good location for the film. Why they kept going on about it being in Antarctica, and showing bogus maps was a bit baffling.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 05, 2019, 06:22:47 AM
the movie is also one big retelling of 'At the Mountains of Madness', which is set in Antarctica.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: OmegaZilla on Oct 05, 2019, 12:03:21 PM
Post by: OmegaZilla on Oct 05, 2019, 12:03:21 PM
It's not a retelling of AtMoM really. Any similarities stem from the movie adapting the comic which in turn took inspiration from discarded elements from early Alien scripts and so on. Same with Prometheus. There wasn't a direct intention to retell AtMoM
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔈𝔦𝔤𝔥𝔱𝔥 𝔓𝔞𝔰𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔤𝔢𝔯 on Oct 05, 2019, 03:27:58 PM
Post by: 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔈𝔦𝔤𝔥𝔱𝔥 𝔓𝔞𝔰𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔤𝔢𝔯 on Oct 05, 2019, 03:27:58 PM
Quote from: SM on Oct 05, 2019, 07:23:03 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 05, 2019, 02:03:49 AM
Indeed! :o
https://i.imgur.com/tO3slRp.png?1
However, it is a safe place for a for a pyramid, safe from modern humans (that is why it is isolated). Then it is time to release the bait to attract a handful of unlucky humans. Also, if something goes wrong, the Alien infestation cannot leave the island. Think of an Anthrax Island. 🤔
Bouvetoya was a good location for the film. Why they kept going on about it being in Antarctica, and showing bogus maps was a bit baffling.
Never knew that. So Bouvetoya it is.
QuoteAlso, if something goes wrong, the Alien infestation cannot leave the island.
Might end up with a nasty Penguinmorph infestation though. :-\
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 05, 2019, 03:47:34 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 05, 2019, 03:47:34 PM
Quote from: Omegamorph on Oct 05, 2019, 12:03:21 PMA team of researchers find a heretofore unknown ancient structure hidden in Antarctica, built by ancient extraterrestrials who used and controlled amorphous black creatures as slave labor who ultimately rebel and murder the shit out of them.
It's not a retelling of AtMoM really. Any similarities stem from the movie adapting the comic which in turn took inspiration from discarded elements from early Alien scripts and so on. Same with Prometheus. There wasn't a direct intention to retell AtMoM
Like, if it wasn't deliberate then it is one hell of an uncanny coincidence.
And even if 'Prometheus' wasn't meant to be an overt adaptation of AtMoM, it was close enough that Guillermo del Toro's AtMoM project got scrapped because of it. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Mountains_of_Madness#Adaptations)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 09:09:31 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 09:09:31 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 05, 2019, 03:51:45 AM
Beyond the "Here Be Dragons", I can't help but wonder what make an Aussiemorph worthy of its name, maybe more teeth or poison ???
Just imagine an SMorph.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Oct 05, 2019, 10:47:09 PM
Post by: Huggs on Oct 05, 2019, 10:47:09 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 09:09:31 PMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 05, 2019, 03:51:45 AM
Beyond the "Here Be Dragons", I can't help but wonder what make an Aussiemorph worthy of its name, maybe more teeth or poison ???
Just imagine an SMorph.
I imagine it would stalk you in order to continuously prove you wrong in very clear and succinct sentences.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 05, 2019, 10:59:06 PM
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 05, 2019, 10:59:06 PM
Quite.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Oct 05, 2019, 11:02:02 PM
Post by: Huggs on Oct 05, 2019, 11:02:02 PM
I'd be hiding somewhere, discussing how the assembly cut of Alien 3 was significantly better than the TC.
Then a voice from up in the vents would say, "No, it's not".
Once I calmed down, I'd have to go somewhere else.
Then a voice from up in the vents would say, "No, it's not".
Once I calmed down, I'd have to go somewhere else.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 11:19:11 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 11:19:11 PM
What if it turned out to be an egg-barfing praetorian?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 06, 2019, 01:02:54 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 06, 2019, 01:02:54 AM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Oct 05, 2019, 10:59:06 PM
Quite.
That is the sound the SMorph makes before attacking its prey.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/S6Yr6wNHaBkZ4rqYLG/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 06, 2019, 02:50:32 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 06, 2019, 02:50:32 AM
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 05, 2019, 10:47:09 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Oct 05, 2019, 09:09:31 PMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 05, 2019, 03:51:45 AM
Beyond the "Here Be Dragons", I can't help but wonder what make an Aussiemorph worthy of its name, maybe more teeth or poison ???
Just imagine an SMorph.
I imagine it would stalk you in order to continuously prove you wrong in very clear and succinct sentences.
Yet voluntarily dissapear out the airlock just as quickly if it realizes you're right.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Oct 06, 2019, 02:51:39 AM
Post by: Huggs on Oct 06, 2019, 02:51:39 AM
I respect it too much to let it escape.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 06, 2019, 08:09:29 AM
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 06, 2019, 08:09:29 AM
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 06, 2019, 02:51:39 AM
I respect it too much to let it escape.
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPqQCI74.jpg&hash=a11bb0de4fbbaa8733201b640646bf8c0d736994)
[close]
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: SM on Oct 06, 2019, 09:43:18 AM
Post by: SM on Oct 06, 2019, 09:43:18 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 06, 2019, 08:09:29 AMQuote from: Huggs on Oct 06, 2019, 02:51:39 AM
I respect it too much to let it escape.Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPqQCI74.jpg&hash=a11bb0de4fbbaa8733201b640646bf8c0d736994)[close]
It's... it's glorious...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Oct 06, 2019, 03:48:58 PM
Post by: Huggs on Oct 06, 2019, 03:48:58 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 06, 2019, 08:09:29 AMQuote from: Huggs on Oct 06, 2019, 02:51:39 AM
I respect it too much to let it escape.Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPqQCI74.jpg&hash=a11bb0de4fbbaa8733201b640646bf8c0d736994)[close]
I merely admire its purity.
Unclouded by conscious, remorse, or delusions of morality. :laugh:
Spoiler
When it gets close enough, I'm going to cocoon it to the walls and force it to watch the AC of Alien 3 until it admits it's the best film of the trilogy.
[close]
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 06, 2019, 05:32:54 PM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 06, 2019, 05:32:54 PM
Imagine using that function to do anything other that stop receiving PMs from certain people. Lmao
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 06, 2019, 10:22:23 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 06, 2019, 10:22:23 PM
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 06, 2019, 03:48:58 PMSpoiler
When it gets close enough, I'm going to cocoon it to the walls and force it to watch the AC of Alien 3 until it admits it's the best film of the trilogy.[close]
Roll over. Play dead. Heel?
You can't teach an SMorph tricks.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 06, 2019, 10:51:17 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 06, 2019, 10:51:17 PM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 06, 2019, 05:32:54 PMWhat do you mean?
Imagine using that function to do anything other that stop receiving PMs from certain people. Lmao
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: OmegaZilla on Oct 07, 2019, 01:45:41 PM
Post by: OmegaZilla on Oct 07, 2019, 01:45:41 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 05, 2019, 03:47:34 PMI'm aware of everything you're saying.
A team of researchers find a heretofore unknown ancient structure hidden in Antarctica, built by ancient extraterrestrials who used and controlled amorphous black creatures as slave labor who ultimately rebel and murder the shit out of them.
Like, if it wasn't deliberate then it is one hell of an uncanny coincidence.
And even if 'Prometheus' wasn't meant to be an overt adaptation of AtMoM, it was close enough that Guillermo del Toro's AtMoM project got scrapped because of it. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Mountains_of_Madness#Adaptations)
ALL the AtMoM-like elements come from Alien script drafts, since O'Bannon was inspired by Lovecraft front and center. The AvP comic took from those drafts, not AtMoM specifically, and so did the film because it was adapting the comic. Prometheus took from the drafts as well, remixing elements to come up with its plot. Neither AvP nor Prometheus had a direct intention to retell AtMoM. Just an indirect echo.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 07, 2019, 04:06:37 PM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 07, 2019, 04:06:37 PM
Yeah, I'd enjoy a direct adaptation by Alien though.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 07, 2019, 04:09:23 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 07, 2019, 04:09:23 PM
Quote from: Omegamorph on Oct 07, 2019, 01:45:41 PMLike I said, it's one hell of an uncanny coincidence that everything fell into place so accurately to AtMoM (twice!), to the point that an actual AtMoM adaptation got canceled because of Prometheus.Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 05, 2019, 03:47:34 PMI'm aware of everything you're saying.
A team of researchers find a heretofore unknown ancient structure hidden in Antarctica, built by ancient extraterrestrials who used and controlled amorphous black creatures as slave labor who ultimately rebel and murder the shit out of them.
Like, if it wasn't deliberate then it is one hell of an uncanny coincidence.
And even if 'Prometheus' wasn't meant to be an overt adaptation of AtMoM, it was close enough that Guillermo del Toro's AtMoM project got scrapped because of it. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Mountains_of_Madness#Adaptations)
ALL the AtMoM-like elements come from Alien script drafts, since O'Bannon was inspired by Lovecraft front and center. The AvP comic took from those drafts, not AtMoM specifically, and so did the film because it was adapting the comic. Prometheus took from the drafts as well, remixing elements to come up with its plot. Neither AvP nor Prometheus had a direct intention to retell AtMoM. Just an indirect echo.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 08, 2019, 11:46:14 PM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 08, 2019, 11:46:14 PM
"When you tear out a man's tongue, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say."
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Oct 09, 2019, 12:01:59 AM
Post by: Huggs on Oct 09, 2019, 12:01:59 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 08, 2019, 11:46:14 PM
"When you tear out a man's tongue, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say."
Either that or " I have the strength to tear out a man's tongue, so don't mess with me". ;)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 09, 2019, 12:20:12 AM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 09, 2019, 12:20:12 AM
Hahahaha. Lmao, I hope not.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 09, 2019, 02:02:43 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 09, 2019, 02:02:43 AM
:laugh:
That's Del Toro's opinion, but it doesn't make him right. The similarities are superficial at best. That said, cosmic horror is not just tentacle porn and epic adventures in frozen landscapes. Alien is cosmic horror though.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 07, 2019, 04:09:23 PMQuote from: Omegamorph on Oct 07, 2019, 01:45:41 PMLike I said, it's one hell of an uncanny coincidence that everything fell into place so accurately to AtMoM (twice!), to the point that an actual AtMoM adaptation got canceled because of Prometheus.Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 05, 2019, 03:47:34 PMI'm aware of everything you're saying.
A team of researchers find a heretofore unknown ancient structure hidden in Antarctica, built by ancient extraterrestrials who used and controlled amorphous black creatures as slave labor who ultimately rebel and murder the shit out of them.
Like, if it wasn't deliberate then it is one hell of an uncanny coincidence.
And even if 'Prometheus' wasn't meant to be an overt adaptation of AtMoM, it was close enough that Guillermo del Toro's AtMoM project got scrapped because of it. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Mountains_of_Madness#Adaptations)
ALL the AtMoM-like elements come from Alien script drafts, since O'Bannon was inspired by Lovecraft front and center. The AvP comic took from those drafts, not AtMoM specifically, and so did the film because it was adapting the comic. Prometheus took from the drafts as well, remixing elements to come up with its plot. Neither AvP nor Prometheus had a direct intention to retell AtMoM. Just an indirect echo.
That's Del Toro's opinion, but it doesn't make him right. The similarities are superficial at best. That said, cosmic horror is not just tentacle porn and epic adventures in frozen landscapes. Alien is cosmic horror though.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 09, 2019, 02:32:32 AM
Post by: SM on Oct 09, 2019, 02:32:32 AM
According to Del Toro ATMOM got canned because he wanted to make a very expensive R-rated movie and the studio said no.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 09, 2019, 11:37:56 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 09, 2019, 11:37:56 PM
Quote from: SM on Oct 09, 2019, 02:32:32 AM
According to Del Toro ATMOM got canned because he wanted to make a very expensive R-rated movie and the studio said no.
I've learned something today. Seriously, I thought Prometheus was guilty for that one. :laugh:
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 09, 2019, 11:54:14 PM
Post by: SM on Oct 09, 2019, 11:54:14 PM
I know he's made comparisons between ATMOM and Alien on a Lovecraft doco, and I think he's made comparisons to Prometheus.
But ultimately it was down to cash.
But ultimately it was down to cash.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 10, 2019, 12:26:33 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 10, 2019, 12:26:33 AM
Now I wonder how much money he wanted for his ATMOM. More money than Prometheus budget?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on Oct 10, 2019, 12:30:40 AM
Post by: Kradan on Oct 10, 2019, 12:30:40 AM
Probably he wanted All The Money in The World
Spoiler
(https://i1.wp.com/www.sopitas.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/if-you-know-what-i-mean.jpg)
[close]
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 10, 2019, 12:36:23 AM
Post by: SM on Oct 10, 2019, 12:36:23 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 10, 2019, 12:26:33 AM
Now I wonder how much money he wanted for his ATMOM. More money than Prometheus budget?
$150 million
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 10, 2019, 12:42:40 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 10, 2019, 12:42:40 AM
Well, I don't blame them now. I love Lovecraft and all, but that budget is very expensive and risky for a horror movie.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/AVBIq6OhZyM4E/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Kradan on Oct 10, 2019, 12:30:40 AM
Probably he wanted All The Money in The WorldSpoiler
(https://i1.wp.com/www.sopitas.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/if-you-know-what-i-mean.jpg)[close]
(https://media.giphy.com/media/AVBIq6OhZyM4E/giphy.gif)
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/0FoFvjv.gif)
[close]
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 10, 2019, 01:09:39 AM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 10, 2019, 01:09:39 AM
Perhaps not so risky anymore though.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on Oct 10, 2019, 01:11:42 AM
Post by: Kradan on Oct 10, 2019, 01:11:42 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 10, 2019, 12:42:40 AM
Well, I don't blame them now. I love Lovecraft and all, but that budget is very expensive and risky for a horror movie.Quote from: Kradan on Oct 10, 2019, 12:30:40 AM
Probably he wanted All The Money in The WorldSpoiler
(https://i1.wp.com/www.sopitas.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/if-you-know-what-i-mean.jpg)[close]
https://media.giphy.com/media/AVBIq6OhZyM4E/giphy.gifSpoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/0FoFvjv.gif)[close]
Lmao ;D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 10, 2019, 02:18:09 AM
Post by: SM on Oct 10, 2019, 02:18:09 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 10, 2019, 12:42:40 AM
Well, I don't blame them now. I love Lovecraft and all, but that budget is very expensive and risky for a horror movie.Quote from: Kradan on Oct 10, 2019, 12:30:40 AM
Probably he wanted All The Money in The WorldSpoiler
(https://i1.wp.com/www.sopitas.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/if-you-know-what-i-mean.jpg)[close]
https://media.giphy.com/media/AVBIq6OhZyM4E/giphy.gifSpoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/0FoFvjv.gif)[close]
He had Tom Cruise and James Cameron on board, but even then it's a big ask. IT made $700m but only cost $35m, and scary clowns is an easy sell. HPL is not. Nor is Del Toro really. Pacific Rim made over $400m - but cost $190m. His other stuff doesn't come near that kind of box office though.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 10, 2019, 02:38:36 AM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 10, 2019, 02:38:36 AM
R-rated film is massive now though.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 10, 2019, 03:49:48 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 10, 2019, 03:49:48 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 10, 2019, 02:38:36 AM
R-rated film is massive now though.
Besides of IT? Which was cheaper than the undone ATMOM.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 10, 2019, 03:55:34 AM
Post by: SM on Oct 10, 2019, 03:55:34 AM
Top 20 R-Rated horror movies of all time - IT is the only horror film. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_R-rated_films)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 10, 2019, 04:39:00 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 10, 2019, 04:39:00 AM
Quote from: SM on Oct 10, 2019, 03:55:34 AM
Top 20 R-Rated horror movies of all time - IT is the only horror film. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_R-rated_films)
In the list one can find "The Exorcist". It's an old movie though, and very cheap for today's standards. Since our current off topic discussion is about, whether an expensive R rating horror movie is a big risk or not, we can reach the consensus that it is not profitable even today. Also, people loves clowns.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 10, 2019, 07:18:13 AM
Post by: SM on Oct 10, 2019, 07:18:13 AM
Yep. It's much accessible than Elder Things.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Oct 10, 2019, 07:36:55 AM
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Oct 10, 2019, 07:36:55 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 09, 2019, 11:37:56 PMQuote from: SM on Oct 09, 2019, 02:32:32 AM
According to Del Toro ATMOM got canned because he wanted to make a very expensive R-rated movie and the studio said no.
I've learned something today. Seriously, I thought Prometheus was guilty for that one. :laugh:
He did also say Prometheus came into play: Guillermo Del Toro Says 'Prometheus' Has Killed 'At The Mountains Of Madness' Because They Both Have The Same Final Twist
https://www.indiewire.com/2012/05/guillermo-del-toro-says-prometheus-has-killed-at-the-mountains-of-madness-because-they-both-have-the-same-final-twist-252233/
QuotePrometheus started filming a while ago- right at the time we were in preproduction on PACIFIC RIM. The title itself gave me pause- knowing that ALIEN was heavily influenced by Lovecraft and his novella.
This time, decades later with the budget and place Ridley Scott occupied, I assumed the greek metaphor alluded at the creation aspects of the HPL book. I believe I am right and if so, as a fan, I am delighted to see a new RS science fiction film, but this will probably mark a long pause -if not the demise- of ATMOM.
The sad part is- I have been pursuing ATMOM for over a decade now- and, well, after Hellboy II two projects I dearly loved were not brought to fruition for me.
The good part is: One project did... And I am loving it and grateful for the blessings I have received.
Onwards.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Oct 10, 2019, 07:40:57 AM
Post by: SiL on Oct 10, 2019, 07:40:57 AM
Sounds more like he was saying it would be hard to revitalise the project having been shelved because of the similarities, rather than the similarities shelving the project.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 11, 2019, 02:47:25 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 11, 2019, 02:47:25 AM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/RN8nikLOWQ2epT2D4r/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 11, 2019, 04:58:30 PM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 11, 2019, 04:58:30 PM
Haha, brilliant, indeed.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 11, 2019, 07:49:55 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 11, 2019, 07:49:55 PM
Ridley is a great filmmaker, but I can't resist sometimes :laugh:
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 11, 2019, 10:31:55 PM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 11, 2019, 10:31:55 PM
Oh, don't worry I approve.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kimarhi on Oct 11, 2019, 11:10:44 PM
Post by: Kimarhi on Oct 11, 2019, 11:10:44 PM
He is. But, he's also crazy.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Oct 11, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
Post by: Huggs on Oct 11, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
He not crazy, he's just...spontaneous.
Whatever happens to be on his mind is what goes in the movie.
Whatever happens to be on his mind is what goes in the movie.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: kwisatz on Oct 12, 2019, 12:41:28 AM
Post by: kwisatz on Oct 12, 2019, 12:41:28 AM
It's blessing and curse, i guess.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Oct 12, 2019, 12:56:17 AM
Post by: Huggs on Oct 12, 2019, 12:56:17 AM
Ridley is a fantastic filmmaker. There is a noticeable quality to his work. The sets, the cinematography, everything is top notch.
The problem is that he has a greater amount of authority than he did back in the day, and he'll use it. When he's following the blueprint of some established work, or is an equal in a group effort, he does great things. He's like a fire hose. It's the right thing for the job, but if you don't have a good hold on it, it'll go flying all over the place while the house burns down.
The problem is that he has a greater amount of authority than he did back in the day, and he'll use it. When he's following the blueprint of some established work, or is an equal in a group effort, he does great things. He's like a fire hose. It's the right thing for the job, but if you don't have a good hold on it, it'll go flying all over the place while the house burns down.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: kwisatz on Oct 12, 2019, 01:24:36 AM
Post by: kwisatz on Oct 12, 2019, 01:24:36 AM
He's certainly outstanding when it comes to the visual side of film-making as an art form. Narration not so much.
With his decision for budget heavy feature films and against artsier forms of visualisation he became heavily dependent on good screen plays.
It's obviously more complicated than that as he might have been able to lift source material or to even corrode a good narrative starting position by meddling too much, but ja --
With his decision for budget heavy feature films and against artsier forms of visualisation he became heavily dependent on good screen plays.
It's obviously more complicated than that as he might have been able to lift source material or to even corrode a good narrative starting position by meddling too much, but ja --
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kimarhi on Oct 12, 2019, 01:32:08 AM
Post by: Kimarhi on Oct 12, 2019, 01:32:08 AM
I think he is still capable as a film maker, but like you said when he has too much control he does too much.
Scott has way more movies that I like than dislike (and some of the ones I like are looked at as his bad movies), but he can go off the rails in productions, especially alien ones, where the studio thinks he is the end all/be all of the series.
I actually do not look forward to Alien movies by Scott because the series has now solely become his baby and there is no telling what kind of bizarre take he will come up with next.
Scott has way more movies that I like than dislike (and some of the ones I like are looked at as his bad movies), but he can go off the rails in productions, especially alien ones, where the studio thinks he is the end all/be all of the series.
I actually do not look forward to Alien movies by Scott because the series has now solely become his baby and there is no telling what kind of bizarre take he will come up with next.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: kwisatz on Oct 12, 2019, 01:45:23 AM
Post by: kwisatz on Oct 12, 2019, 01:45:23 AM
A detached control argument doesnt work that well for me.
Alien and Blade Runner look the way cause thats Scott micromanaging the art department telling people what kind of pencils he wants on Holdens desk at Tyrell Corp -- and thats good control in my eyes, if he can manage to find the time.
Question is where and when it does go wrong, but thats not so easy to ascertain. I still think it's the narrative sphere where Scott is causing most damage and should probably be given minimum control. But be my guest and stand up against the guy, who is often the personalised reason the whole project is happening in the first place.
Alien and Blade Runner look the way cause thats Scott micromanaging the art department telling people what kind of pencils he wants on Holdens desk at Tyrell Corp -- and thats good control in my eyes, if he can manage to find the time.
Question is where and when it does go wrong, but thats not so easy to ascertain. I still think it's the narrative sphere where Scott is causing most damage and should probably be given minimum control. But be my guest and stand up against the guy, who is often the personalised reason the whole project is happening in the first place.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Oct 12, 2019, 01:59:14 AM
Post by: Huggs on Oct 12, 2019, 01:59:14 AM
I have tremendous respect for him, but the prequels aren't working. This isn't Marvel or F&F. We don't have 2 or 3 other Aliens films in production or green-lit every single year to pick up the slack if the general audience doesn't give up the $ for one. We get one film every few years. Sometimes once a decade or more.
If we had other films in the vein of 79 and 86 going on at the same time, I wouldn't mind seeing where Ridley wanted to go with things. But we're never going to have that. We get the bones they chuck us, whenever they remember to do it. I count the prequels as two big missed opportunities already. I don't see how the franchise can keep out of deep cryo if Ridley shoots and misses for a third time.
And I don't know if Ridley would even have anything to do with the movies, if certain creative restrictions were placed on him. If it isn't his vision, he may tell everybody to go suck one, and make something else.
If we had other films in the vein of 79 and 86 going on at the same time, I wouldn't mind seeing where Ridley wanted to go with things. But we're never going to have that. We get the bones they chuck us, whenever they remember to do it. I count the prequels as two big missed opportunities already. I don't see how the franchise can keep out of deep cryo if Ridley shoots and misses for a third time.
And I don't know if Ridley would even have anything to do with the movies, if certain creative restrictions were placed on him. If it isn't his vision, he may tell everybody to go suck one, and make something else.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: kwisatz on Oct 12, 2019, 02:08:53 AM
Post by: kwisatz on Oct 12, 2019, 02:08:53 AM
Ja, but in my eyes the prequels aren't working not as standalone installments let alone as a trilogy or anything cause the screen plays are mediocre at best. Not even Rapace could save the woodcut-like "character" that is Elizabeth Shaw.
And Ridley isn't the type that can step in and take over fixing narrative problems for hacks like Spaiths.
Take BR2049, the screen play isn't thaaaaaat great either (it's not Spaiths level bad though), but DV et al. lift it tremendously on all kinds of production levels, but mainly i suspect by highlighting strong aspects of the source material and downplaying weaker ones. Same thing with Sicario.
And Ridley isn't the type that can step in and take over fixing narrative problems for hacks like Spaiths.
Take BR2049, the screen play isn't thaaaaaat great either (it's not Spaiths level bad though), but DV et al. lift it tremendously on all kinds of production levels, but mainly i suspect by highlighting strong aspects of the source material and downplaying weaker ones. Same thing with Sicario.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 12, 2019, 02:21:16 AM
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 12, 2019, 02:21:16 AM
With Covenant Ridley reached chaotic mad lad tier. He is an unpredictable force.
Eccentric.
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 11, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
He not crazy, he's just...spontaneous.
Whatever happens to be on his mind is what goes in the movie.
Eccentric.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kimarhi on Oct 12, 2019, 02:22:43 AM
Post by: Kimarhi on Oct 12, 2019, 02:22:43 AM
I don't know if we are disagreeing even though I had stopped mid post to go eat and was actually responding to Huggs originally.
The Alien franchise is the one franchise that is easily a sequel series that he is involved in. I don't care that he micromanages. Every director does.
But he jumped all over the opportunity to take Alien in his own direction without sitting down and taking the time to work out a script that did the franchise justice. Or even his own movie justice if he considers Alien a standalone. To make matters worse it appears that the studio has given him full control over the series which gives him even more time to develop a ball of f**k to throw on screen.
What we got was a regurgitated mess of all of his ideas he's had for the franchise in the last two decades, and then had his new ideas thrown in for good measure on where he sees the series going post title creature. I have no doubt he is CAPABLE of directing an Alien movie with a clear and defined narrative that isn't all over the place. He's already shown that with Alien, and then showed it again with a clear and concise narrative in The Martian.
I just have my doubts he can do it again if he is given this much control of the franchise. This is his baby. His chance at spinning a story that can get to point a to point b in more than one movie, and by god he's going to get everything he ever thought about on screen for the series that he can because he isnt going to get a chance anywhere else............and that narrative is suffering for it.
It's kind of like what Lucas did with the prequel series of SW. His story could have stood better had he done like the original series and let other directors and writers flesh out the story after ANH.
The Alien franchise is the one franchise that is easily a sequel series that he is involved in. I don't care that he micromanages. Every director does.
But he jumped all over the opportunity to take Alien in his own direction without sitting down and taking the time to work out a script that did the franchise justice. Or even his own movie justice if he considers Alien a standalone. To make matters worse it appears that the studio has given him full control over the series which gives him even more time to develop a ball of f**k to throw on screen.
What we got was a regurgitated mess of all of his ideas he's had for the franchise in the last two decades, and then had his new ideas thrown in for good measure on where he sees the series going post title creature. I have no doubt he is CAPABLE of directing an Alien movie with a clear and defined narrative that isn't all over the place. He's already shown that with Alien, and then showed it again with a clear and concise narrative in The Martian.
I just have my doubts he can do it again if he is given this much control of the franchise. This is his baby. His chance at spinning a story that can get to point a to point b in more than one movie, and by god he's going to get everything he ever thought about on screen for the series that he can because he isnt going to get a chance anywhere else............and that narrative is suffering for it.
It's kind of like what Lucas did with the prequel series of SW. His story could have stood better had he done like the original series and let other directors and writers flesh out the story after ANH.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Oct 12, 2019, 02:30:13 AM
Post by: Huggs on Oct 12, 2019, 02:30:13 AM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Oct 12, 2019, 02:21:16 AM
With Covenant Ridley reached chaotic mad lad tier. He is an unpredictable force.Quote from: Huggs on Oct 11, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
He not crazy, he's just...spontaneous.
Whatever happens to be on his mind is what goes in the movie.
Eccentric.
Eclectic.
"We have a new creature. It's white instead of black and there's a hole where the d*ck used to be. Plus Goblin Sharks. They'll love it.".
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: kwisatz on Oct 12, 2019, 02:48:11 AM
Post by: kwisatz on Oct 12, 2019, 02:48:11 AM
Quote from: Kimarhi on Oct 12, 2019, 02:22:43 AM
But he jumped all over the opportunity to take Alien in his own direction without sitting down and taking the time to work out a script that did the franchise justice. Or even his own movie justice if he considers Alien a standalone. To make matters worse it appears that the studio has given him full control over the series which gives him even more time to develop a ball of f**k to throw on screen.
The point for me is, i think in a way Ridley can't ultimately distinguish between a good and a mediocre screen play and therefore was sorta lucky with Alien/BR/Gladiator etc. Hes throwing out ideas and expects the writers to implement them into a cohesive form of story telling. But thats not so different from what he did back in the days when they hired David Peoples to meddle with Fanchers screen play. I don't know how much actual influence he had on the final Alien screen play.
I mean is Prometheus a visually appealing movie or not? Fassbenders performance is more than good so Ridley can't have completely lost his touch (or as you already mentioned, look at The Martian; American Gangster is a satisfying movie in my eyes).
When it comes to the blame game i really tend to look more in the direction of Spaiths (Ok hes a beginner, but so was Fancher), Lindelof, Logan, Green, Paglen etc. Did they really deliver a basic narrative meeting the high standards of the franchise? More than debatable in my eyes.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kimarhi on Oct 12, 2019, 03:15:16 AM
Post by: Kimarhi on Oct 12, 2019, 03:15:16 AM
But I think that is where the control aspect does come into play. If you a a writer for an alien movie that is forced to write in 20 years of bad takes, vs just a writer for an alien movie ok to come up with ideas to further the story of the franchise then one is going to have a much easier go than the other.
He definitely has some influence on the new Alien movie in terms of story because all those shorts pre covenant were supposedly from his thought noodle.
He definitely has some influence on the new Alien movie in terms of story because all those shorts pre covenant were supposedly from his thought noodle.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: kwisatz on Oct 12, 2019, 03:59:19 AM
Post by: kwisatz on Oct 12, 2019, 03:59:19 AM
Sure but ultimately Ridley and the writers have the same goal: to deliver a sound product. I'm not saying Ridley isn't interfering more than in the past but i doubt hes throwing rocks or even Ridleygrams at them while they are trying to type their stuff.
Fancher and Green probably faced the most ungrateful task in the history of Hollywod screen play writing with the Blade Runner sequel and they had to go through Ridley himself with a lot of their core ideas. It seems they were able to win him over for a more ambiguous approach regarding the nature of Deckard. They delivered, quality writing, you don't see Ridley running around these days like Lucas whining that this is not what he had in mind for his "baby" or something.
I just doubt Ridleys on a mission choking off good ideas for the Alien franchise to force through his own fragmented vision. The guy knows hes no PT Anderson by now, he even knew that from the start and learned to cope with it, he just wants to transform written stuff into cool pictures but if the written stuff is mediocre so is the final film, albeit nice to look at. May i present: Prometheus.
Fancher and Green probably faced the most ungrateful task in the history of Hollywod screen play writing with the Blade Runner sequel and they had to go through Ridley himself with a lot of their core ideas. It seems they were able to win him over for a more ambiguous approach regarding the nature of Deckard. They delivered, quality writing, you don't see Ridley running around these days like Lucas whining that this is not what he had in mind for his "baby" or something.
I just doubt Ridleys on a mission choking off good ideas for the Alien franchise to force through his own fragmented vision. The guy knows hes no PT Anderson by now, he even knew that from the start and learned to cope with it, he just wants to transform written stuff into cool pictures but if the written stuff is mediocre so is the final film, albeit nice to look at. May i present: Prometheus.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 12, 2019, 11:31:37 AM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 12, 2019, 11:31:37 AM
I couldn't say it any more precisely myself.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Kradan on Oct 12, 2019, 02:52:22 PM
Post by: Kradan on Oct 12, 2019, 02:52:22 PM
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 12, 2019, 02:30:13 AMQuote from: Samhain13 on Oct 12, 2019, 02:21:16 AM
With Covenant Ridley reached chaotic mad lad tier. He is an unpredictable force.Quote from: Huggs on Oct 11, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
He not crazy, he's just...spontaneous.
Whatever happens to be on his mind is what goes in the movie.
Eccentric.
Eclectic.
"We have a new creature. It's white instead of black and there's a hole where the d*ck used to be. Plus Goblin Sharks. They'll love it.".
Well, it worked for me, The same applies to Covenant as whole,
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 12, 2019, 02:52:47 PM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 12, 2019, 02:52:47 PM
What do you mean?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on Oct 12, 2019, 02:55:48 PM
Post by: Kradan on Oct 12, 2019, 02:55:48 PM
I like Neomorphs. And I like Covenant. So Ridley being spontaneous about things is fine with me.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Oct 12, 2019, 02:57:12 PM
Post by: The Old One on Oct 12, 2019, 02:57:12 PM
I agree that the Neomorph is a great spin on the original Alien, as a beastial, undeveloped, basic version but I see Covenant as totally it's own beast. As I've said before, a Gothic Romantic Horror in space.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 20, 2020, 10:16:26 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 20, 2020, 10:16:26 PM
Quote from: bacchus on May 13, 2017, 11:29:48 PM
With Covenant taking place in 2104, and David having created the first Xeno via the facehugger that attacked Oram, I guess Covenant confirms once and for all that AvP and AvPR are not canon. AvP taking place in 2004 and AvPR not long after that. Even in AvP they reference 1904 in the film as being a date that the Alien Queen in that film was still in deep freeze.
Good.
Except Covenant doesn't make AVP and AVPR non-canon at all, they're still very much canon, and David didn't create the Xenomorphs, he merely created his own variant of it based upon a Xenomorph created by the Engineers as revealed by the novelization.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Mar 20, 2020, 10:40:56 PM
Post by: The Old One on Mar 20, 2020, 10:40:56 PM
The Xenomorph XX121 being
Alien to life itself
> The Perfect A.I creating the Alien
> The Alien being a natural creation
> "Engineer" or "Humanity"
creating the Alien
Alien to life itself
> The Perfect A.I creating the Alien
> The Alien being a natural creation
> "Engineer" or "Humanity"
creating the Alien
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Mar 20, 2020, 11:17:23 PM
Post by: Huggs on Mar 20, 2020, 11:17:23 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 20, 2020, 10:16:26 PM
Except Covenant doesn't make AVP and AVPR non-canon at all, they're still very much canon.
Yes, to each other and slightly to The Predator. Although The Predator was so ridiculous that it's possible that it may be completely ignored going forward.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Xenomorphine on Mar 20, 2020, 11:35:22 PM
Post by: Xenomorphine on Mar 20, 2020, 11:35:22 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 20, 2020, 10:16:26 PM
Except Covenant doesn't make AVP and AVPR non-canon at all, they're still very much canon, and David didn't create the Xenomorphs, he merely created his own variant of it based upon a Xenomorph created by the Engineers as revealed by the novelization.
That was just Alan Dean Foster trying to correct things in the script. He already clarified that much in our interview. It wasn't requested by the studio or anything and, as it contradicts the primary source material (what ended up on screen), that part's just a 'what if'.
With that said, there were important differences between what we saw in that film and the creatures of LV-426. Particularly the facehugger's capabilities. With David 8 not yet having any reason to go there (and that engraved mural of the traditional four-petalled egg in exoskeletal hands), it's completely valid to believe the classic Alien had nothing to do with the droid's experiment. The onus is really on any future story-tellers (if any) of David 8's story to show otherwise.
And it wouldn't make sense for further refinements in the creature to make it less efficient than a facehugger able to implant without even needing an ovipositor and in mere moments.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 21, 2020, 12:41:27 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 21, 2020, 12:41:27 AM
I'm clearly understanding why the delete function was taken away from you and probably should again. Third time I'll just report this nonsense.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 20, 2020, 10:16:26 PM
Except Covenant doesn't make AVP and AVPR non-canon at all, they're still very much canon, and David didn't create the Xenomorphs, he merely created his own variant of it based upon a Xenomorph created by the Engineers as revealed by the novelization.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Mar 21, 2020, 08:48:14 AM
Post by: The Old One on Mar 21, 2020, 08:48:14 AM
Until the fortunate day something definitively says otherwise, by "perfecting" the Pathogen, "David" created the Alien. As for any differences between the Alien in Covenant and the Aliens featured in the first three films, it's so easily reconcilable, from Alien The RPG's idea of three types of Egg and Facehugger and so on Praetomorph/Stalker, Soldier/Sentry (Praetorian Guard/Praetorian Charger), Queen/Empress. To the idea it's a prototype. To the idea simply all Aliens share it's features retroactively.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TheBATMAN on Mar 21, 2020, 08:59:55 AM
Post by: TheBATMAN on Mar 21, 2020, 08:59:55 AM
Are people really still trying to flog the Peter Weyland is Charles's son fanon?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Mar 21, 2020, 09:42:12 AM
Post by: SM on Mar 21, 2020, 09:42:12 AM
Why yes. Yes, they are.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Samhain13 on Mar 21, 2020, 10:53:08 AM
Post by: Samhain13 on Mar 21, 2020, 10:53:08 AM
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Mar 21, 2020, 08:59:55 AM
Are people really still trying to flog the Peter Weyland is Charles's son fanon?
Maybe on the next retcon we will get there.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 21, 2020, 01:03:10 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 21, 2020, 01:03:10 PM
I can't believe you guys want this to belong to the same world as the original :laugh:
(https://i.imgur.com/MJ67mz9.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/xIHBPoQ.jpg)
Also there is no in-universe justification for the horrendous design like in Alien Resurrection :P :P
(https://i.imgur.com/MJ67mz9.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/xIHBPoQ.jpg)
Also there is no in-universe justification for the horrendous design like in Alien Resurrection :P :P
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 21, 2020, 02:14:09 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 21, 2020, 02:14:09 PM
:D
(https://s4.scoopwhoop.com/anj/Terminator/542983850.gif)
(https://s4.scoopwhoop.com/anj/Terminator/542983850.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Mar 21, 2020, 08:26:31 PM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Mar 21, 2020, 08:26:31 PM
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 20, 2020, 11:35:22 PM
That was just Alan Dean Foster trying to correct things in the script. He already clarified that much in our interview. It wasn't requested by the studio or anything and, as it contradicts the primary source material (what ended up on screen), that part's just a 'what if'.
Was it? I thought Alan was just adapting the draft of the script he was given, which originally had David finding the eggs, but Ridley changed the script at the last minute.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 21, 2020, 09:06:46 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 21, 2020, 09:06:46 PM
Quote from: David's Creation on Mar 21, 2020, 08:26:31 PMQuote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 20, 2020, 11:35:22 PM
That was just Alan Dean Foster trying to correct things in the script. He already clarified that much in our interview. It wasn't requested by the studio or anything and, as it contradicts the primary source material (what ended up on screen), that part's just a 'what if'.
Was it? I thought Alan was just adapting the draft of the script he was given, which originally had David finding the eggs, but Ridley changed the script at the last minute.
I don't know if that's true, but the result is still a "What if" exercise cos it is a piece of merchandising with an alternate scenario to the canonical source material.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Mar 21, 2020, 09:12:31 PM
Post by: SM on Mar 21, 2020, 09:12:31 PM
Quote from: David's Creation on Mar 21, 2020, 08:26:31 PMQuote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 20, 2020, 11:35:22 PM
That was just Alan Dean Foster trying to correct things in the script. He already clarified that much in our interview. It wasn't requested by the studio or anything and, as it contradicts the primary source material (what ended up on screen), that part's just a 'what if'.
Was it? I thought Alan was just adapting the draft of the script he was given, which originally had David finding the eggs, but Ridley changed the script at the last minute.
It was an ADF thing.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Mar 21, 2020, 09:30:16 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Mar 21, 2020, 09:30:16 PM
It must have upset him too.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 21, 2020, 09:37:32 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 21, 2020, 09:37:32 PM
Nothing can upset Riddles, since he is the one who upset people. But people may be overrated anyway, so :P :P
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Mar 21, 2020, 09:40:14 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Mar 21, 2020, 09:40:14 PM
I meant ADF.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 21, 2020, 09:41:43 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 21, 2020, 09:41:43 PM
Oh lets pretend
(https://i.imgur.com/ByxMg9n.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/ByxMg9n.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Mar 21, 2020, 10:28:38 PM
Post by: SiL on Mar 21, 2020, 10:28:38 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 21, 2020, 01:03:10 PMThe genetic dickery.
Also there is no in-universe justification for the horrendous design like in Alien Resurrection :P :P
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Mar 21, 2020, 10:41:14 PM
Post by: SM on Mar 21, 2020, 10:41:14 PM
It's the most blatantly obvious in-universe explanation.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 21, 2020, 10:43:24 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 21, 2020, 10:43:24 PM
Quote from: SiL on Mar 21, 2020, 10:28:38 PMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 21, 2020, 01:03:10 PMThe genetic dickery.
Also there is no in-universe justification for the horrendous design like in Alien Resurrection :P :P
If it's for the movie I agree. Now if it is for me, I also agree cos I like to be a dick when I'm bored.. which is often haha
(https://i.imgur.com/q4Hfcbl.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 10:44:03 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 10:44:03 PM
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 20, 2020, 11:35:22 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 20, 2020, 10:16:26 PM
Except Covenant doesn't make AVP and AVPR non-canon at all, they're still very much canon, and David didn't create the Xenomorphs, he merely created his own variant of it based upon a Xenomorph created by the Engineers as revealed by the novelization.
That was just Alan Dean Foster trying to correct things in the script. He already clarified that much in our interview. It wasn't requested by the studio or anything and, as it contradicts the primary source material (what ended up on screen), that part's just a 'what if'.
With that said, there were important differences between what we saw in that film and the creatures of LV-426. Particularly the facehugger's capabilities. With David 8 not yet having any reason to go there (and that engraved mural of the traditional four-petalled egg in exoskeletal hands), it's completely valid to believe the classic Alien had nothing to do with the droid's experiment. The onus is really on any future story-tellers (if any) of David 8's story to show otherwise.
And it wouldn't make sense for further refinements in the creature to make it less efficient than a facehugger able to implant without even needing an ovipositor and in mere moments.
I agree with some of your points, except Foster didn't contradict anything on screen, as the film was ambiguous as to what was going on and could be easily interpreted in various ways, but he merely added to what was going on and clarified it, and the two Covenant novels are officially licensed products connected to the film and so it only makes sense to take it as it is written. Not to mention Peter Weyland's logs on the Prometheus home video release clearly states that they detected the distress signal from LV-426 before the events of Prometheus.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 21, 2020, 12:41:27 AM
I'm clearly understanding why the delete function was taken away from you and probably should again. Third time I'll just report this nonsense.Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 20, 2020, 10:16:26 PM
Except Covenant doesn't make AVP and AVPR non-canon at all, they're still very much canon, and David didn't create the Xenomorphs, he merely created his own variant of it based upon a Xenomorph created by the Engineers as revealed by the novelization.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjEF8QCLyW0
I beg your pardon? What are you talking about here? Yes, we all know what Scott has said on the matter, but it was not incorporated into the actual film but was left ambiguous and remains contradicted by the novelization and other material such as Peter Weyland's logs.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 21, 2020, 10:47:20 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 21, 2020, 10:47:20 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 10:44:03 PMQuote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 20, 2020, 11:35:22 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 20, 2020, 10:16:26 PM
Except Covenant doesn't make AVP and AVPR non-canon at all, they're still very much canon, and David didn't create the Xenomorphs, he merely created his own variant of it based upon a Xenomorph created by the Engineers as revealed by the novelization.
That was just Alan Dean Foster trying to correct things in the script. He already clarified that much in our interview. It wasn't requested by the studio or anything and, as it contradicts the primary source material (what ended up on screen), that part's just a 'what if'.
With that said, there were important differences between what we saw in that film and the creatures of LV-426. Particularly the facehugger's capabilities. With David 8 not yet having any reason to go there (and that engraved mural of the traditional four-petalled egg in exoskeletal hands), it's completely valid to believe the classic Alien had nothing to do with the droid's experiment. The onus is really on any future story-tellers (if any) of David 8's story to show otherwise.
And it wouldn't make sense for further refinements in the creature to make it less efficient than a facehugger able to implant without even needing an ovipositor and in mere moments.
I agree with some of your points, except Foster didn't contradict anything on screen, as the film was ambiguous as to what was going on and could be easily interpreted in various ways, but he merely added to what was going on and clarified it, and the two Covenant novels are officially licensed products connected to the film and so it only makes sense to take it as it is written. Not to mention Peter Weyland's logs on the Prometheus home video release clearly states that they detected the distress signal from LV-426 before the events of Prometheus.
For Ridley there is no ambiguity. David created the Alien.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 10:48:48 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 10:48:48 PM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Mar 21, 2020, 08:48:14 AM
Until the fortunate day something definitively says otherwise, by "perfecting" the Pathogen, "David" created the Alien. As for any differences between the Alien in Covenant and the Aliens featured in the first three films, it's so easily reconcilable, from Alien The RPG's idea of three types of Egg and Facehugger and so on Praetomorph/Stalker, Soldier/Sentry (Praetorian Guard/Praetorian Charger), Queen/Empress. To the idea it's a prototype. To the idea simply all Aliens share it's features retroactively.
That can't really be said though, since the movie doesn't definitively state this to begin with, and it's contradicted by its own novel and other material. At best we can say that David created a type of Xenomorph, but hardly being the original creator of all Xenomorphs.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Mar 21, 2020, 08:59:55 AM
Are people really still trying to flog the Peter Weyland is Charles's son fanon?
Nobody argues that this is actually the case, but it's a perfectly valid interpretation judging from the available evidence. I also see a few others arguing for their own fanon though.
Quote from: SM on Mar 21, 2020, 09:42:12 AM
Why yes. Yes, they are.
Uh no. No, they're not.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Mar 21, 2020, 10:53:08 AMQuote from: TheBATMAN on Mar 21, 2020, 08:59:55 AM
Are people really still trying to flog the Peter Weyland is Charles's son fanon?
Maybe on the next retcon we will get there.
One could only hope.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Mar 21, 2020, 10:52:13 PM
Post by: Huggs on Mar 21, 2020, 10:52:13 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 10:44:03 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 21, 2020, 12:41:27 AM
I'm clearly understanding why the delete function was taken away from you and probably should again. Third time I'll just report this nonsense.Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 20, 2020, 10:16:26 PM
Except Covenant doesn't make AVP and AVPR non-canon at all, they're still very much canon, and David didn't create the Xenomorphs, he merely created his own variant of it based upon a Xenomorph created by the Engineers as revealed by the novelization.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjEF8QCLyW0
I beg your pardon? What are you talking about here? Yes, we all know what Scott has said on the matter, but it was not incorporated into the actual film but was left ambiguous and remains contradicted by the novelization and other material such as Peter Weyland's logs.
He had a lengthy spat last night with another member. The mods came in and erased most of it already. The video response to your quote was the only thing he had going with you in that post.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 10:52:36 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 10:52:36 PM
Quote from: SM on Mar 21, 2020, 10:41:14 PM
It's the most blatantly obvious in-universe explanation.
What is? That David merely created his own variant of Xenomorph based upon the Xenomorphs which the Engineers had already created?
Quote from: Huggs on Mar 21, 2020, 10:52:13 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 10:44:03 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 21, 2020, 12:41:27 AM
I'm clearly understanding why the delete function was taken away from you and probably should again. Third time I'll just report this nonsense.Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 20, 2020, 10:16:26 PM
Except Covenant doesn't make AVP and AVPR non-canon at all, they're still very much canon, and David didn't create the Xenomorphs, he merely created his own variant of it based upon a Xenomorph created by the Engineers as revealed by the novelization.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjEF8QCLyW0
I beg your pardon? What are you talking about here? Yes, we all know what Scott has said on the matter, but it was not incorporated into the actual film but was left ambiguous and remains contradicted by the novelization and other material such as Peter Weyland's logs.
He had a lengthy spat last night with another member. The mods came in and erased most of it already. The video response to your quote was the only thing he had going with you in that post.
That sounds odd.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 21, 2020, 10:47:20 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 10:44:03 PMQuote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 20, 2020, 11:35:22 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 20, 2020, 10:16:26 PM
Except Covenant doesn't make AVP and AVPR non-canon at all, they're still very much canon, and David didn't create the Xenomorphs, he merely created his own variant of it based upon a Xenomorph created by the Engineers as revealed by the novelization.
That was just Alan Dean Foster trying to correct things in the script. He already clarified that much in our interview. It wasn't requested by the studio or anything and, as it contradicts the primary source material (what ended up on screen), that part's just a 'what if'.
With that said, there were important differences between what we saw in that film and the creatures of LV-426. Particularly the facehugger's capabilities. With David 8 not yet having any reason to go there (and that engraved mural of the traditional four-petalled egg in exoskeletal hands), it's completely valid to believe the classic Alien had nothing to do with the droid's experiment. The onus is really on any future story-tellers (if any) of David 8's story to show otherwise.
And it wouldn't make sense for further refinements in the creature to make it less efficient than a facehugger able to implant without even needing an ovipositor and in mere moments.
I agree with some of your points, except Foster didn't contradict anything on screen, as the film was ambiguous as to what was going on and could be easily interpreted in various ways, but he merely added to what was going on and clarified it, and the two Covenant novels are officially licensed products connected to the film and so it only makes sense to take it as it is written. Not to mention Peter Weyland's logs on the Prometheus home video release clearly states that they detected the distress signal from LV-426 before the events of Prometheus.
For Ridley there is no ambiguity. David created the Alien.
Sure, but thankfully Ridley is not the auhor of these products and Fox actually greenlit the novel among other things to fix his errors.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Mar 21, 2020, 11:05:11 PM
Post by: SM on Mar 21, 2020, 11:05:11 PM
Quote
What is? That David merely created his own variant of Xenomorph based upon the Xenomorphs which the Engineers had already created?
I suggest reading posts in the order that they are posted. They'll make more sense.
QuoteUh no. No, they're not.
See above.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Mar 21, 2020, 11:08:07 PM
Post by: Huggs on Mar 21, 2020, 11:08:07 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 10:52:36 PM
He had a lengthy spat last night with another member. The mods came in and erased most of it already. The video response to your quote was the only thing he had going with you in that post.
That sounds odd.
[/quote]
It was. And tense too.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 11:09:22 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 11:09:22 PM
Quote from: SM on Mar 21, 2020, 11:05:11 PMQuote
What is? That David merely created his own variant of Xenomorph based upon the Xenomorphs which the Engineers had already created?
I suggest reading posts in the order that they are posted. They'll make more sense.QuoteUh no. No, they're not.
See above.
It was a rhetorical question.
Quote from: Huggs on Mar 21, 2020, 11:08:07 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 10:52:36 PM
He had a lengthy spat last night with another member. The mods came in and erased most of it already. The video response to your quote was the only thing he had going with you in that post.
That sounds odd.
It was. And tense too.
[/quote]
Huh, kinda wish I'd witnessed it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Mar 21, 2020, 11:13:59 PM
Post by: SM on Mar 21, 2020, 11:13:59 PM
I suggest looking up what "rhetorical" means too.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 11:16:28 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 11:16:28 PM
Quote from: SM on Mar 21, 2020, 11:13:59 PM
I suggest looking up what "rhetorical" means too.
How so?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Mar 21, 2020, 11:21:59 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Mar 21, 2020, 11:21:59 PM
This is tense.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 11:22:37 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 21, 2020, 11:22:37 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Mar 21, 2020, 11:21:59 PM
This is tense.
You think so? ^^
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Mar 21, 2020, 11:23:32 PM
Post by: Huggs on Mar 21, 2020, 11:23:32 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Mar 21, 2020, 11:21:59 PM
This is tense.
Is it giving you stress gas?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Mar 21, 2020, 11:24:33 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Mar 21, 2020, 11:24:33 PM
What doesn't?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 03:42:33 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 03:42:33 AM
When is it a good time to mention that Terminator, Blade Runner, Robocop, Judge Dredd, Batman, Superman, Tarzan, and Archie is canon too?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Huggs on Mar 22, 2020, 04:02:03 AM
Post by: Huggs on Mar 22, 2020, 04:02:03 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 03:42:33 AM
When is it a good time to mention that Terminator, Blade Runner, Robocop, Judge Dredd, Batman, Superman, Tarzan, and Archie is canon too?
This post made me contemplate the idea of a Predator/Golden Girls crossover.
"Ma?! Oh my God, Rose, have you seen Ma?!"
*Sophia's voice* "Ova here pussycat"
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:45:06 AM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:45:06 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 03:42:33 AM
When is it a good time to mention that Terminator, Blade Runner, Robocop, Judge Dredd, Batman, Superman, Tarzan, and Archie is canon too?
Well, they're not exactly canon to the established main Alien/Predator Universe, but these alternate universes currently only exists within the realm of Dark Horse Comics unless Disney/Fox decides to get the rights to these properties and officially include them. Noting that Blade Runner, unlike these other products, has no real ties to the franchise other than some easter eggs. But it would for sure make for an even more awesome universe if that were to happen. Just imagine all the possible stories you could tell with all these properties at your disposal. But I doubt that it will ever happen though, especially seeing as Terminator for one thing is in a really weird place right now since the last film bombed, and Blade Runner doesn't seem very profitable judging by the two films that currently exists, and I suspect they will just focus on the already established Alien, Predator, Alien vs. Predator, and (maybe) Prometheus franchises.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 11:53:35 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 11:53:35 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:45:06 AM
Well, they're not exactly canon to the established main Alien/Predator Universe, but these alternate universes currently only exists within the realm of Dark Horse Comics unless Disney/Fox decides to get the rights to these properties and officially include them.
Prove it. Please show us evidence. Let's start with Terminator.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 01:18:08 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 01:18:08 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 11:53:35 AMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:45:06 AM
Well, they're not exactly canon to the established main Alien/Predator Universe, but these alternate universes currently only exists within the realm of Dark Horse Comics unless Disney/Fox decides to get the rights to these properties and officially include them.
Prove it. Please show us evidence. Let's start with Terminator.
I'm not exactly dogmatic about the canonicity of these titles, but Terminator so far only seem to connect through a single comic by Dark Horse Comics (although this one also connects to Alien Resurrection which is certainly interesting), while Disney/Fox has no say on what happens with the Terminator franchise. They're soft canon if anything but feel free to aid me in finding tangible connections.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 01:33:19 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 01:33:19 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 01:18:08 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 11:53:35 AMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:45:06 AM
Well, they're not exactly canon to the established main Alien/Predator Universe, but these alternate universes currently only exists within the realm of Dark Horse Comics unless Disney/Fox decides to get the rights to these properties and officially include them.
Prove it. Please show us evidence. Let's start with Terminator.
I'm not exactly dogmatic about the canonicity of these titles, but Terminator so far only seem to connect through a single comic by Dark Horse Comics (although this one also connects to Alien Resurrection which is certainly interesting), while Disney/Fox has no say on what happens with the Terminator franchise. They're soft canon if anything but feel free to aid me in finding tangible connections.
Here's a few:
https://skynetsarmy.wordpress.com/2017/05/08/terminator-aliens-and-predator-are-all-connected-in-a-shared-universe/
We can't prove it's not canon, so I guess it's all canon!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 02:01:37 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 02:01:37 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 01:33:19 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 01:18:08 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 11:53:35 AMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:45:06 AM
Well, they're not exactly canon to the established main Alien/Predator Universe, but these alternate universes currently only exists within the realm of Dark Horse Comics unless Disney/Fox decides to get the rights to these properties and officially include them.
Prove it. Please show us evidence. Let's start with Terminator.
I'm not exactly dogmatic about the canonicity of these titles, but Terminator so far only seem to connect through a single comic by Dark Horse Comics (although this one also connects to Alien Resurrection which is certainly interesting), while Disney/Fox has no say on what happens with the Terminator franchise. They're soft canon if anything but feel free to aid me in finding tangible connections.
Here's a few:
https://skynetsarmy.wordpress.com/2017/05/08/terminator-aliens-and-predator-are-all-connected-in-a-shared-universe/
We can't prove it's not canon, so I guess it's all canon!
I'm not sure if I'm entirely onboard with this evidence though. It mentions how, in the Aliens script, Hyperdyne Systems was originally written as Cyberdyne Systems but they had to remove it due to copyright issues, so that's no longer a solid connection unfortunately. The second connection made is with the cyborg Major Dutch Schaefer from the 1994 Alien vs. Predator game and how his cyborg code is written as "CDS" and implying that it stands for "CyberDyne Systems", and while it's surely interesting to note, this seems like more of an actual easter egg than a definitive connection, and it had been different if it had been spelled out as specifically Cyberdyne Systems. But it's a nice theory, even though not particularly strong.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 02:51:36 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 02:51:36 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 02:01:37 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 01:33:19 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 01:18:08 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 11:53:35 AMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:45:06 AM
Well, they're not exactly canon to the established main Alien/Predator Universe, but these alternate universes currently only exists within the realm of Dark Horse Comics unless Disney/Fox decides to get the rights to these properties and officially include them.
Prove it. Please show us evidence. Let's start with Terminator.
I'm not exactly dogmatic about the canonicity of these titles, but Terminator so far only seem to connect through a single comic by Dark Horse Comics (although this one also connects to Alien Resurrection which is certainly interesting), while Disney/Fox has no say on what happens with the Terminator franchise. They're soft canon if anything but feel free to aid me in finding tangible connections.
Here's a few:
https://skynetsarmy.wordpress.com/2017/05/08/terminator-aliens-and-predator-are-all-connected-in-a-shared-universe/
We can't prove it's not canon, so I guess it's all canon!
I'm not sure if I'm entirely onboard with this evidence though. It mentions how, in the Aliens script, Hyperdyne Systems was originally written as Cyberdyne Systems but they had to remove it due to copyright issues, so that's no longer a solid connection unfortunately. The second connection made is with the cyborg Major Dutch Schaefer from the 1994 Alien vs. Predator game and how his cyborg code is written as "CDS" and implying that it stands for "CyberDyne Systems", and while it's surely interesting to note, this seems like more of an actual easter egg than a definitive connection, and it had been different if it had been spelled out as specifically Cyberdyne Systems. But it's a nice theory, even though not particularly strong.
But I thought we liked theories, like Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland being related to each other, David not being the creator of the Xenomorphs and time-travelling Predators. Surely there's enough evidence after seeing Terminators square off with Aliens and Predators in the comics, that a Cyborg from CDS means CYBERDYNE SYSTEMS and Hyperdyne is a division of Cyberdyne.
Otherwise, show me evidence this is not the case.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 03:11:33 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 03:11:33 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 02:51:36 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 02:01:37 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 01:33:19 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 01:18:08 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 11:53:35 AMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:45:06 AM
Well, they're not exactly canon to the established main Alien/Predator Universe, but these alternate universes currently only exists within the realm of Dark Horse Comics unless Disney/Fox decides to get the rights to these properties and officially include them.
Prove it. Please show us evidence. Let's start with Terminator.
I'm not exactly dogmatic about the canonicity of these titles, but Terminator so far only seem to connect through a single comic by Dark Horse Comics (although this one also connects to Alien Resurrection which is certainly interesting), while Disney/Fox has no say on what happens with the Terminator franchise. They're soft canon if anything but feel free to aid me in finding tangible connections.
Here's a few:
https://skynetsarmy.wordpress.com/2017/05/08/terminator-aliens-and-predator-are-all-connected-in-a-shared-universe/
We can't prove it's not canon, so I guess it's all canon!
I'm not sure if I'm entirely onboard with this evidence though. It mentions how, in the Aliens script, Hyperdyne Systems was originally written as Cyberdyne Systems but they had to remove it due to copyright issues, so that's no longer a solid connection unfortunately. The second connection made is with the cyborg Major Dutch Schaefer from the 1994 Alien vs. Predator game and how his cyborg code is written as "CDS" and implying that it stands for "CyberDyne Systems", and while it's surely interesting to note, this seems like more of an actual easter egg than a definitive connection, and it had been different if it had been spelled out as specifically Cyberdyne Systems. But it's a nice theory, even though not particularly strong.
But I thought we liked theories, like Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland being related to each other, David not being the creator of the Xenomorphs and time-travelling Predators. Surely there's enough evidence after seeing Terminators square off with Aliens and Predators in the comics, that a Cyborg from CDS means CYBERDYNE SYSTEMS and Hyperdyne is a division of Cyberdyne.
Otherwise, show me evidence this is not the case.
If there's sufficient evidence to suggest genuine connections and support these arguments, then yes, and I reiterate that I'm not being dogmatic about the canonical nature of such works as Aliens vs. Predator vs. Terminator, and again, CDS is an ambiguous reference and could probably not be spelled out as "Cyberdyne Systems" due to the same copyright issues that prevented it from being included in Aliens and therefore can't be officially Cyberdyne Systems, and for this reason it's not good evidence and it certainly doesn't help that Fox doesn't own or have any control over the Terminator franchise. It can be acknowledged as soft canon if anything and it currently only exists within Dark Horse Comics because they had the license while Fox didn't.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 03:34:21 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 03:34:21 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 03:11:33 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 02:51:36 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 02:01:37 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 01:33:19 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 01:18:08 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 11:53:35 AMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:45:06 AM
Well, they're not exactly canon to the established main Alien/Predator Universe, but these alternate universes currently only exists within the realm of Dark Horse Comics unless Disney/Fox decides to get the rights to these properties and officially include them.
Prove it. Please show us evidence. Let's start with Terminator.
I'm not exactly dogmatic about the canonicity of these titles, but Terminator so far only seem to connect through a single comic by Dark Horse Comics (although this one also connects to Alien Resurrection which is certainly interesting), while Disney/Fox has no say on what happens with the Terminator franchise. They're soft canon if anything but feel free to aid me in finding tangible connections.
Here's a few:
https://skynetsarmy.wordpress.com/2017/05/08/terminator-aliens-and-predator-are-all-connected-in-a-shared-universe/
We can't prove it's not canon, so I guess it's all canon!
I'm not sure if I'm entirely onboard with this evidence though. It mentions how, in the Aliens script, Hyperdyne Systems was originally written as Cyberdyne Systems but they had to remove it due to copyright issues, so that's no longer a solid connection unfortunately. The second connection made is with the cyborg Major Dutch Schaefer from the 1994 Alien vs. Predator game and how his cyborg code is written as "CDS" and implying that it stands for "CyberDyne Systems", and while it's surely interesting to note, this seems like more of an actual easter egg than a definitive connection, and it had been different if it had been spelled out as specifically Cyberdyne Systems. But it's a nice theory, even though not particularly strong.
But I thought we liked theories, like Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland being related to each other, David not being the creator of the Xenomorphs and time-travelling Predators. Surely there's enough evidence after seeing Terminators square off with Aliens and Predators in the comics, that a Cyborg from CDS means CYBERDYNE SYSTEMS and Hyperdyne is a division of Cyberdyne.
Otherwise, show me evidence this is not the case.
If there's sufficient evidence to suggest genuine connections and support these arguments, then yes, and I reiterate that I'm not being dogmatic about the canonical nature of such works as Aliens vs. Predator vs. Terminator, and again, CDS is an ambiguous reference and could probably not be spelled out as "Cyberdyne Systems" due to the same copyright issues that prevented it from being included in Aliens and therefore can't be officially Cyberdyne Systems, and for this reason it's not good evidence and it certainly doesn't help that Fox doesn't own or have any control over the Terminator franchise. It can be acknowledged as soft canon if anything and it currently only exists within Dark Horse Comics because they had the license while Fox didn't.
Of course the illegitimacy of copyright status then, compiled with the legitimacy of copyright later..
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/terminator/images/9/99/Avpvt3pg00.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080311025623)
...should be enough evidence to legitimize these theories of canon, regardless of who currently owns the copyright.
This is based on your line of thought. Otherwise, show me evidence this is not the case.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 03:46:06 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 03:46:06 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 03:34:21 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 03:11:33 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 02:51:36 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 02:01:37 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 01:33:19 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 01:18:08 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 11:53:35 AMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:45:06 AM
Well, they're not exactly canon to the established main Alien/Predator Universe, but these alternate universes currently only exists within the realm of Dark Horse Comics unless Disney/Fox decides to get the rights to these properties and officially include them.
Prove it. Please show us evidence. Let's start with Terminator.
I'm not exactly dogmatic about the canonicity of these titles, but Terminator so far only seem to connect through a single comic by Dark Horse Comics (although this one also connects to Alien Resurrection which is certainly interesting), while Disney/Fox has no say on what happens with the Terminator franchise. They're soft canon if anything but feel free to aid me in finding tangible connections.
Here's a few:
https://skynetsarmy.wordpress.com/2017/05/08/terminator-aliens-and-predator-are-all-connected-in-a-shared-universe/
We can't prove it's not canon, so I guess it's all canon!
I'm not sure if I'm entirely onboard with this evidence though. It mentions how, in the Aliens script, Hyperdyne Systems was originally written as Cyberdyne Systems but they had to remove it due to copyright issues, so that's no longer a solid connection unfortunately. The second connection made is with the cyborg Major Dutch Schaefer from the 1994 Alien vs. Predator game and how his cyborg code is written as "CDS" and implying that it stands for "CyberDyne Systems", and while it's surely interesting to note, this seems like more of an actual easter egg than a definitive connection, and it had been different if it had been spelled out as specifically Cyberdyne Systems. But it's a nice theory, even though not particularly strong.
But I thought we liked theories, like Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland being related to each other, David not being the creator of the Xenomorphs and time-travelling Predators. Surely there's enough evidence after seeing Terminators square off with Aliens and Predators in the comics, that a Cyborg from CDS means CYBERDYNE SYSTEMS and Hyperdyne is a division of Cyberdyne.
Otherwise, show me evidence this is not the case.
If there's sufficient evidence to suggest genuine connections and support these arguments, then yes, and I reiterate that I'm not being dogmatic about the canonical nature of such works as Aliens vs. Predator vs. Terminator, and again, CDS is an ambiguous reference and could probably not be spelled out as "Cyberdyne Systems" due to the same copyright issues that prevented it from being included in Aliens and therefore can't be officially Cyberdyne Systems, and for this reason it's not good evidence and it certainly doesn't help that Fox doesn't own or have any control over the Terminator franchise. It can be acknowledged as soft canon if anything and it currently only exists within Dark Horse Comics because they had the license while Fox didn't.
Of course the illegitimacy of copyright status then, compiled with the legitimacy of copyright later..
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/terminator/images/9/99/Avpvt3pg00.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080311025623)
...should be enough evidence to legitimize these theories of canon, regardless of who currently owns the copyright.
This is based on your line of thought. Otherwise, show me evidence this is not the case.
Again, it's soft canon at least, and I don't feel confident enough to say whether it is or isn't canon, but I prefer it being canon, although that's irrelevant.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 03:49:42 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 03:49:42 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 03:46:06 PM
Again, it's soft canon at least, and I don't feel confident enough to say whether it is or isn't canon, but I prefer it being canon, although that's irrelevant.
Show me the evidence 20th Century Studios considers it soft canon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 04:18:34 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 04:18:34 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 03:49:42 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 03:46:06 PM
Again, it's soft canon at least, and I don't feel confident enough to say whether it is or isn't canon, but I prefer it being canon, although that's irrelevant.
Show me the evidence 20th Century Studios considers it soft canon.
Well, it's in the fact that it's a product produced by a publisher separate from Fox involving two of Fox's assets together with another asset not owned or controlled by Fox and has not (and probably could not) be acknowledged further than it was back then, so it's a tricky situation and hence it could at best be described as being soft canon or on the fence unless stated otherwise.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 05:14:31 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 05:14:31 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 04:18:34 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 03:49:42 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 03:46:06 PM
Again, it's soft canon at least, and I don't feel confident enough to say whether it is or isn't canon, but I prefer it being canon, although that's irrelevant.
Show me the evidence 20th Century Studios considers it soft canon.
Well, it's in the fact that it's a product produced by a publisher separate from Fox involving two of Fox's assets together with another asset not owned or controlled by Fox and has not (and probably could not) be acknowledged further than it was back then, so it's a tricky situation and hence it could at best be described as being soft canon or on the fence unless stated otherwise.
But you have no evidence, no proof, to support your soft-canon assumption, whether two studios are involved i.e. Freddy vs Jason with unrelated characters or not. You're just using rational thinking , the same rational thinking that you have rejected with requests of unobtainable proof in support of your own EU backed canon theories. This approach is endless. That's my point.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 05:47:22 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 05:47:22 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 05:14:31 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 04:18:34 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 03:49:42 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 03:46:06 PM
Again, it's soft canon at least, and I don't feel confident enough to say whether it is or isn't canon, but I prefer it being canon, although that's irrelevant.
Show me the evidence 20th Century Studios considers it soft canon.
Well, it's in the fact that it's a product produced by a publisher separate from Fox involving two of Fox's assets together with another asset not owned or controlled by Fox and has not (and probably could not) be acknowledged further than it was back then, so it's a tricky situation and hence it could at best be described as being soft canon or on the fence unless stated otherwise.
But you have no evidence, no proof, to support your soft-canon assumption, whether two studios are involved i.e. Freddy vs Jason with unrelated characters or not. You're just using rational thinking , the same rational thinking that you have rejected with requests of unobtainable proof in support of your own EU backed canon theories. This approach is endless. That's my point.
The reason I say "soft canon" is because it's difficult to determine whether it's canon or non-canon, so at best you can say it's somewhere in-between, and I don't blame anyone for treating it as either canon or non-canon. Freddy vs. Jason became essentially an established universe with the release of the major motion picture and the comic book (and I'm sad the film sequel got cancelled) as it became an agreement between the companies involved. I have not rejected my rational thinking in regards to (which I assume you are referring to) Charles and Peter being related or the Engineers having created the Xenomorphs, as I've provided strong evidence to suggest that these things are true, or at least that the latter part is demonstrably true while the former is demonstrably likely. I lay these cases out more thoroughly here;
(1) https://xenoversecenter.blogspot.com/2020/03/are-charles-weyland-and-peter-weyland.html
(2) https://xenoversecenter.blogspot.com/2020/03/did-david-create-xenomorphs.html
(3) https://xenoversecenter.blogspot.com/2020/03/does-alien-and-predator-take-place-in.html
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 06:24:26 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 06:24:26 PM
While I appreciate your effort with these new posts, what sums up a flawed entire way of thinking in my opinion is what you said in conclusion in regards to Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland being related:
"Now, I'm not arguing that this is actually the case, but given the evidence provided, there seems to be no real reason why we shouldn't conclude this, and to all intents and purposes they do seem to be related, and fans can't be blamed for interpreting the two characters this way."
Welcome to Fanon.
"Now, I'm not arguing that this is actually the case, but given the evidence provided, there seems to be no real reason why we shouldn't conclude this, and to all intents and purposes they do seem to be related, and fans can't be blamed for interpreting the two characters this way."
Welcome to Fanon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Mar 22, 2020, 06:33:10 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Mar 22, 2020, 06:33:10 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 24, 2012, 01:35:40 AM
I can imagine that Weyland Industries was acquired by Yutani Corporation in a hostile takeover shortly after the death of Charles Bishop Weyland in 2004. Then Peter comes of age, founds Weyland Corporation on his own in 2012, and takes a keen interest in the archaeological find that his grandfather died investigating.
The rest could proceed normally, with Weyland and Yutani finally merging after Peter's death and before the events of Alien.
:P
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 06:36:48 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 06:36:48 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 06:24:26 PM
While I appreciate your effort with these new posts, what sums up a flawed entire way of thinking in my opinion is what you said in conclusion in regards to Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland being related:
"Now, I'm not arguing that this is actually the case, but given the evidence provided, there seems to be no real reason why we shouldn't conclude this, and to all intents and purposes they do seem to be related, and fans can't be blamed for interpreting the two characters this way."
Welcome to Fanon.
The point of that statement being that this relationship is yet to be confirmed, even though it is to be inferred by the available evidence. There's nothing about it that qualifies as being fanon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 06:52:32 PM
Post by: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 06:52:32 PM
But it isnt inferred, it is outright contradicted, and goes against the intent of the writer. Yet because this is not outright stated in the movies (although it never would be because said relationship doesnt actually exist), you can infer as otherwise because it suits your own personal desire for the story. That is exactly what fanon is.
What ADF did with the novel is essentially fanon.
What ADF did with the novel is essentially fanon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Gr33n M4n on Mar 22, 2020, 06:57:34 PM
Post by: Gr33n M4n on Mar 22, 2020, 06:57:34 PM
How long is this debate gonna drag on?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 06:58:11 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 06:58:11 PM
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 06:52:32 PM
But it isnt inferred, it is outright contradicted, and goes against the intent of the writer. Yet because this is not outright stated in the movies (although it never would be because said relationship doesnt actually exist), you can infer as otherwise because it suits your own personal desire for the story. That is exactly what fanon is.
What ADF did with the novel is essentially fanon.
When official evidence doesn't match your preferences, just call it fanon and disregard it. That's what I'm getting here, and it doesn't seem like a very reasonable or convincing response.
Quote from: Gr33n M4n on Mar 22, 2020, 06:57:34 PM
How long is this debate gonna drag on?
I'm naturally going to respond to the responses I receive, so I don't know. Depends on how badly some people wish to prove me wrong, I guess.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 07:15:55 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 07:15:55 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 06:36:48 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 06:24:26 PM
While I appreciate your effort with these new posts, what sums up a flawed entire way of thinking in my opinion is what you said in conclusion in regards to Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland being related:
"Now, I'm not arguing that this is actually the case, but given the evidence provided, there seems to be no real reason why we shouldn't conclude this, and to all intents and purposes they do seem to be related, and fans can't be blamed for interpreting the two characters this way."
Welcome to Fanon.
The point of that statement being that this relationship is yet to be confirmed, even though it is to be inferred by the available evidence. There's nothing about it that qualifies as being fanon.
So...
confirmed fact = canon
and...
analyzed theory = f̶a̶n̶o̶n̶ ̶ ̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶d̶c̶a̶n̶o̶n̶ canon
:P
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 07:35:26 PM
Post by: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 07:35:26 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 06:58:11 PMQuote from: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 06:52:32 PM
But it isnt inferred, it is outright contradicted, and goes against the intent of the writer. Yet because this is not outright stated in the movies (although it never would be because said relationship doesnt actually exist), you can infer as otherwise because it suits your own personal desire for the story. That is exactly what fanon is.
What ADF did with the novel is essentially fanon.
When official evidence doesn't match your preferences, just call it fanon and disregard it. That's what I'm getting here, and it doesn't seem like a very reasonable or convincing response.
But that is exactly what you are doing.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 07:36:39 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 07:36:39 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 07:15:55 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 06:36:48 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 06:24:26 PM
While I appreciate your effort with these new posts, what sums up a flawed entire way of thinking in my opinion is what you said in conclusion in regards to Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland being related:
"Now, I'm not arguing that this is actually the case, but given the evidence provided, there seems to be no real reason why we shouldn't conclude this, and to all intents and purposes they do seem to be related, and fans can't be blamed for interpreting the two characters this way."
Welcome to Fanon.
The point of that statement being that this relationship is yet to be confirmed, even though it is to be inferred by the available evidence. There's nothing about it that qualifies as being fanon.
So...
confirmed fact = canon
and...
analyzed theory = f̶a̶n̶o̶n̶ ̶ ̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶d̶c̶a̶n̶o̶n̶ canon
:P
In this case it's more like: Analyzed evidence-based theory = plausibly canon
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 07:35:26 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 06:58:11 PMQuote from: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 06:52:32 PM
But it isnt inferred, it is outright contradicted, and goes against the intent of the writer. Yet because this is not outright stated in the movies (although it never would be because said relationship doesnt actually exist), you can infer as otherwise because it suits your own personal desire for the story. That is exactly what fanon is.
What ADF did with the novel is essentially fanon.
When official evidence doesn't match your preferences, just call it fanon and disregard it. That's what I'm getting here, and it doesn't seem like a very reasonable or convincing response.
But that is exactly what you are doing.
I'm pretty sure I'm not doing that at all, but I get that it's a satisfying excuse.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SuperiorIronman on Mar 22, 2020, 08:06:24 PM
Post by: SuperiorIronman on Mar 22, 2020, 08:06:24 PM
The AVP films (or at least the first one) is only acknowledged by the Predator franchise.
While the Alien EU does utilize Predators, it does not acknowledge the crossover films beyond stylistic choices.
While the Alien EU does utilize Predators, it does not acknowledge the crossover films beyond stylistic choices.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 08:07:48 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 08:07:48 PM
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Mar 22, 2020, 08:06:24 PM
The AVP films (or at least the first one) is only acknowledged by the Predator franchise.
While the Alien EU does utilize Predators, it does not acknowledge the crossover films beyond stylistic choices.
That's not what the evidence suggest though. Noting that even if the AVP films are not acknowledged by the Alien films (seeing as they were made before AVP), it doesn't change that AVP acknowledges the Alien films.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 08:15:35 PM
Post by: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 08:15:35 PM
It is exactly what you are doing and the fact you plainly cannot see that is why this is draging on so long. No one is making an excuse, you are just trying to force jigsaw pieces into place where they are not meant to go. You are ignoring what the film states and what the writer intented to justify a workaround because thats the only way it works. There is precisely zero evidence Charles and Peter are related or part of the same universe.
By all means enjoy your fanon if that's what you choose to go with,but dont try and suggest it is actual fact.
By all means enjoy your fanon if that's what you choose to go with,but dont try and suggest it is actual fact.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 08:18:35 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 08:18:35 PM
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 08:15:35 PM
It is exactly what you are doing and the fact you plainly cannot see that is why this is draging on so long. No one is making an excuse, you are just trying to force jigsaw pieces into place where they are not meant to go. You are ignoring what the film states and what the writer intented to justify a workaround because thats the only way it works. There is precisely zero evidence Charles and Peter are related or part of the same universe.
By all means enjoy your fanon if that's what you choose to go with,but dont try and suggest it is actual fact.
That is the picture of willful ignorance. You won't get anywhere closer to ending the conversation by resorting to this approach. I understand that it's upsetting, but this is just the way it is.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 09:34:38 PM
Post by: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 09:34:38 PM
Resorting to facts?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SuperiorIronman on Mar 22, 2020, 09:54:37 PM
Post by: SuperiorIronman on Mar 22, 2020, 09:54:37 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 08:07:48 PMQuote from: SuperiorIronman on Mar 22, 2020, 08:06:24 PM
The AVP films (or at least the first one) is only acknowledged by the Predator franchise.
While the Alien EU does utilize Predators, it does not acknowledge the crossover films beyond stylistic choices.
That's not what the evidence suggest though. Noting that even if the AVP films are not acknowledged by the Alien films (seeing as they were made before AVP), it doesn't change that AVP acknowledges the Alien films.
As far as Predator is concerned, Aliens do exist in the universe and a later film has acknowledged Aliens Versus Predator. Its only accurate to say that Predator as a franchise acknowledges it.
AVP does exist as a prequel to the Alien franchise but the Alien Prequels themselves have since retroactively made the Alien a more recent entity. It just means that in Predator the Alien is far more ancient whereas in Alien it's a more recent creature.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Mar 22, 2020, 10:00:52 PM
Post by: The Old One on Mar 22, 2020, 10:00:52 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GYLwY.jpg)
Regardless of the Alien's creation date.
(https://thebioscopist.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/screen-shot-2012-04-17-at-23-23-11.png)
Regardless of the Alien's creation date.
(https://thebioscopist.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/screen-shot-2012-04-17-at-23-23-11.png)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 10:01:06 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 10:01:06 PM
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Mar 22, 2020, 09:54:37 PMQuote from: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 08:07:48 PMQuote from: SuperiorIronman on Mar 22, 2020, 08:06:24 PM
The AVP films (or at least the first one) is only acknowledged by the Predator franchise.
While the Alien EU does utilize Predators, it does not acknowledge the crossover films beyond stylistic choices.
That's not what the evidence suggest though. Noting that even if the AVP films are not acknowledged by the Alien films (seeing as they were made before AVP), it doesn't change that AVP acknowledges the Alien films.
As far as Predator is concerned, Aliens do exist in the universe and a later film has acknowledged Aliens Versus Predator. Its only accurate to say that Predator as a franchise acknowledges it.
AVP does exist as a prequel to the Alien franchise but the Alien Prequels themselves have since retroactively made the Alien a more recent entity. It just means that in Predator the Alien is far more ancient whereas in Alien it's a more recent creature.
I understand the concept you're describing but it doesn't seem to be consistent with the evidence. The ancient nature of the Xenomorphs haven't been changed.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 09:34:38 PM
Resorting to facts?
No, but dishonestly resorting to ignoring the facts and the evidence presented by your opponent and then suggesting they haven't provided any.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Mar 22, 2020, 10:00:52 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/GYLwY.jpg)
Regardless of the Alien's creation date.
I've already addressed this as well.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SuperiorIronman on Mar 22, 2020, 10:24:06 PM
Post by: SuperiorIronman on Mar 22, 2020, 10:24:06 PM
I think I do remember some scant mentions of more ancient Xenomorph but this also should be noted that many Alien share similar traits and we know some Alien variants have occurred which would superficially resemble the "modern" Xenomorph. The Neomorph being the prime example of this and while it's a process to make a Deacon, we know the Engineers have encountered Humans enough that one is also just as possible pre-David.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 10:43:31 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 10:43:31 PM
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Mar 22, 2020, 08:06:24 PM
The AVP films (or at least the first one) is only acknowledged by the Predator franchise.
Both AvPs are currently canon to Predator my good man. :)
(https://i.ibb.co/cFJ77H6/IMG-20200316-171937.jpg)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: SM on Mar 22, 2020, 11:04:24 PM
Post by: SM on Mar 22, 2020, 11:04:24 PM
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 09:34:38 PM
Resorting to facts?
How dare you resort to facts, sir!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:21:59 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:21:59 PM
Quote from: SM on Mar 22, 2020, 11:04:24 PMQuote from: TheBATMAN on Mar 22, 2020, 09:34:38 PM
Resorting to facts?
How dare you resort to facts, sir!
Well, I don't know how, but I dare, unlike other people.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Mar 22, 2020, 11:31:15 PM
Post by: SM on Mar 22, 2020, 11:31:15 PM
I look forward to it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:34:32 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:34:32 PM
Quote from: SM on Mar 22, 2020, 11:31:15 PM
I look forward to it.
I think you missed it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 11:45:22 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 11:45:22 PM
And that concludes another exciting episode of...
Fan Desire versus Reality!
And as always, we conclude every episode with the following message...
Fan Desire versus Reality!
And as always, we conclude every episode with the following message...
Spoiler
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ThankfulIdenticalBat-size_restricted.gif)
;D
;D
[close]
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:49:36 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 22, 2020, 11:49:36 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 22, 2020, 11:45:22 PM
And that concludes another exciting episode of...
Fan Desire versus Reality!
And as always, we conclude every episode with the following message...Spoiler
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ThankfulIdenticalBat-size_restricted.gif)
;D[close]
One could only hope that it would be over already.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 23, 2020, 12:27:13 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Mar 23, 2020, 12:27:13 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/ozGqYbK.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: The Old One on Mar 23, 2020, 10:50:31 AM
Post by: The Old One on Mar 23, 2020, 10:50:31 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GYLwY.jpg)
It's here for everyone else's benefit, regarding the founding of Weyland Corporation, also although the information's probably far from new, I found another date:
(https://thebioscopist.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/screen-shot-2012-04-17-at-23-23-07.png)
It's here for everyone else's benefit, regarding the founding of Weyland Corporation, also although the information's probably far from new, I found another date:
(https://thebioscopist.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/screen-shot-2012-04-17-at-23-23-07.png)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 23, 2020, 11:37:25 AM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 23, 2020, 11:37:25 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Mar 23, 2020, 10:50:31 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/GYLwY.jpg)
It's here for everyone else's benefit, regarding the founding of Weyland Corporation, also although the information's probably far from new, I found another date:
(https://thebioscopist.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/screen-shot-2012-04-17-at-23-23-07.png)
Already addressed here; https://xenoversecenter.blogspot.com/2020/03/are-charles-weyland-and-peter-weyland.html
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Mar 23, 2020, 11:47:32 AM
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Mar 23, 2020, 11:47:32 AM
Is that your blog?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 23, 2020, 11:55:33 AM
Post by: TurokSwe on Mar 23, 2020, 11:55:33 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 23, 2020, 11:47:32 AM
Is that your blog?
Yes.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on Mar 23, 2020, 06:00:04 PM
Post by: Kradan on Mar 23, 2020, 06:00:04 PM
Nice
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Mar 23, 2020, 07:29:47 PM
Post by: Huggs on Mar 23, 2020, 07:29:47 PM
When the corporation was founded and which version of Weyland was is charge is dependent on the needs of the movie.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Mar 23, 2020, 10:26:32 PM
Post by: SM on Mar 23, 2020, 10:26:32 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 23, 2020, 11:47:32 AM
Is that your blog?
The interpretations are certainly... creative.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Apr 04, 2020, 11:40:10 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Apr 04, 2020, 11:40:10 AM
Wow this thread got a lot of replies while I was away.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Apr 04, 2020, 12:35:09 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Apr 04, 2020, 12:35:09 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Apr 04, 2020, 11:40:10 AM
Wow this thread got a lot of replies while I was away.
There could have been a team-up!
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/42c117cfaa96307c8ef0bb7a3ce8ff83/tenor.gif?itemid=10566711)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Apr 04, 2020, 02:37:58 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Apr 04, 2020, 02:37:58 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Apr 04, 2020, 12:35:09 PMReading over what I missed, I actually doubt it. :PQuote from: Xenomrph on Apr 04, 2020, 11:40:10 AM
Wow this thread got a lot of replies while I was away.
There could have been a team-up!
https://media1.tenor.com/images/42c117cfaa96307c8ef0bb7a3ce8ff83/tenor.gif?itemid=10566711
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: EJA on May 23, 2020, 08:33:42 PM
Post by: EJA on May 23, 2020, 08:33:42 PM
Even if you do ignore the AVP movies, you still can't fix Covenant's depiction of the Alien's origin to make it an older creature. The film does not leave any wriggle room in that department.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: 426Buddy on May 23, 2020, 09:32:26 PM
Post by: 426Buddy on May 23, 2020, 09:32:26 PM
It could be easily adjusted, hand waved, or just plain ignored.
Sequels do it all the time.
Sequels do it all the time.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Evanus on May 23, 2020, 10:30:16 PM
Post by: Evanus on May 23, 2020, 10:30:16 PM
Quote from: EJA on May 23, 2020, 08:33:42 PMExcept.. It kinda does? Sure the original film implies it's ancient. But it doesn't outright confirm it.
Even if you do ignore the AVP movies, you still can't fix Covenant's depiction of the Alien's origin to make it an older creature. The film does not leave any wriggle room in that department.
Edit: Or do you mean retconning Covenant? In that case, it's possible to change it. David is an unreliable narrator, he's making errors and all that. Thematically it could be problematic though.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: j0nesy on May 23, 2020, 11:23:00 PM
Post by: j0nesy on May 23, 2020, 11:23:00 PM
even without the knowledge of adf's adaptation, or david's short, i always felt he was just "recreating" his version of whatever the engineer's created previously (who i also felt were creating their own version). in my mind, i prefer the idea that the xeno gene is something that wasn't created, but ancient, mysterious and always there
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: 426Buddy on May 23, 2020, 11:36:31 PM
Post by: 426Buddy on May 23, 2020, 11:36:31 PM
^Same page lol totally inline with that thinking.
Plus David realising he still never had the ability to create and was a malfunctioning machine would be an epic fall for a great villain.
Plus David realising he still never had the ability to create and was a malfunctioning machine would be an epic fall for a great villain.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Stitch on May 23, 2020, 11:58:02 PM
Post by: Stitch on May 23, 2020, 11:58:02 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 23, 2020, 11:36:31 PMWhich would tie in with the Byron/Shelley thing. David's been getting thing wrong for a long time, and not realising it.
^Same page lol totally inline with that thinking.
Plus David realising he still never had the ability to create and was a malfunction machine would be an epic fall for q great villain.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: OpenMaw on May 24, 2020, 02:19:52 AM
Post by: OpenMaw on May 24, 2020, 02:19:52 AM
In other words its completely false to say that Covenant leaves no wiggle room.
For all we know, while all the stuff is going on with Covenant and David, the ancient Engineer ship is still sitting there on LV-426.
For all we know, while all the stuff is going on with Covenant and David, the ancient Engineer ship is still sitting there on LV-426.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2020, 12:29:38 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2020, 12:29:38 PM
There's wiggle room for anything. But until it wiggles out and isn't, it is:
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: 426Buddy on May 24, 2020, 01:44:45 PM
Post by: 426Buddy on May 24, 2020, 01:44:45 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2020, 12:29:38 PM
There's wiggle room for anything. But until it wiggles out and isn't, it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjEF8QCLyW0
Pretty sure people understand what scotts intention was, they also understand he will probably change his mind by the next film. The intention in Prometheus was that the engineers created the alien and that changed by the next flick.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on May 24, 2020, 02:34:14 PM
Post by: Kradan on May 24, 2020, 02:34:14 PM
Yep
But what you gonna do when it will turn out that Ripley was responsible all along ? How about such change of mind ?
But what you gonna do when it will turn out that Ripley was responsible all along ? How about such change of mind ?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2020, 02:44:45 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2020, 02:44:45 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 24, 2020, 01:44:45 PM
Pretty sure people understand what scotts intention was, they also understand he will probably change his mind by the next film. The intention in Prometheus was that the engineers created the alien and that changed by the next flick.
Actually I'm not so certain he will. I guess I'm not personally convinced of "probably".
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: 426Buddy on May 24, 2020, 02:48:16 PM
Post by: 426Buddy on May 24, 2020, 02:48:16 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2020, 02:44:45 PMQuote from: 426Buddy on May 24, 2020, 01:44:45 PM
Pretty sure people understand what scotts intention was, they also understand he will probably change his mind by the next film. The intention in Prometheus was that the engineers created the alien and that changed by the next flick.
Actually I'm not so certain he will. I guess I'm not personally convinced of "probably".
If he makes another alien film it will be his fourth and he appears to have changed his mind or direction for every film.
Probably will again...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: LastSonofKrypton on May 24, 2020, 08:31:26 PM
Post by: LastSonofKrypton on May 24, 2020, 08:31:26 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 24, 2020, 02:48:16 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2020, 02:44:45 PMQuote from: 426Buddy on May 24, 2020, 01:44:45 PM
Pretty sure people understand what scotts intention was, they also understand he will probably change his mind by the next film. The intention in Prometheus was that the engineers created the alien and that changed by the next flick.
Actually I'm not so certain he will. I guess I'm not personally convinced of "probably".
If he makes another alien film it will be his fourth and he appears to have changed his mind or direction for every film.
Probably will again...
We'll probably find out in the next one that the Aliens created David.
Or David was Space Jesus this entire time
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2020, 08:42:10 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2020, 08:42:10 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on May 24, 2020, 02:48:16 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2020, 02:44:45 PMQuote from: 426Buddy on May 24, 2020, 01:44:45 PM
Pretty sure people understand what scotts intention was, they also understand he will probably change his mind by the next film. The intention in Prometheus was that the engineers created the alien and that changed by the next flick.
Actually I'm not so certain he will. I guess I'm not personally convinced of "probably".
If he makes another alien film it will be his fourth and he appears to have changed his mind or direction for every film.
Probably will again...
With something else, sure, but not convinced he will change his mind on the creation of Xenomorph again though
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: 426Buddy on May 24, 2020, 11:14:51 PM
Post by: 426Buddy on May 24, 2020, 11:14:51 PM
It'll probably changed everything thats come before :D
I could see the change as a demand being handed down by the studio and Scott just rolling with it. Would depend on if they think its actually unpopular with audiences.
Actually at this point I don't seriously think Ridley will have time or the pull with Disney to do another alien flick.
I could see the change as a demand being handed down by the studio and Scott just rolling with it. Would depend on if they think its actually unpopular with audiences.
Actually at this point I don't seriously think Ridley will have time or the pull with Disney to do another alien flick.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Evanus on May 25, 2020, 12:03:08 AM
Post by: Evanus on May 25, 2020, 12:03:08 AM
Here's the TRUTH about David.
He transferred his conscience to JONESY. I mean look at this
(https://i0.wp.com/78.media.tumblr.com/8e1495c3b4bdc5ec04af116729db5b9b/tumblr_p87gb2JU331vigpn1o1_500.gif?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1) (https://i.imgur.com/EsHjl7k.gif?noredirect)
The resemblance is uncanny! Pretty convincing I'd say.
Spoiler
He transferred his conscience to JONESY. I mean look at this
(https://i0.wp.com/78.media.tumblr.com/8e1495c3b4bdc5ec04af116729db5b9b/tumblr_p87gb2JU331vigpn1o1_500.gif?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1) (https://i.imgur.com/EsHjl7k.gif?noredirect)
The resemblance is uncanny! Pretty convincing I'd say.
[close]
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on May 25, 2020, 12:11:10 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on May 25, 2020, 12:11:10 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2020, 08:42:10 PMQuote from: 426Buddy on May 24, 2020, 02:48:16 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2020, 02:44:45 PMQuote from: 426Buddy on May 24, 2020, 01:44:45 PM
Pretty sure people understand what scotts intention was, they also understand he will probably change his mind by the next film. The intention in Prometheus was that the engineers created the alien and that changed by the next flick.
Actually I'm not so certain he will. I guess I'm not personally convinced of "probably".
If he makes another alien film it will be his fourth and he appears to have changed his mind or direction for every film.
Probably will again...
With something else, sure, but not convinced he will change his mind on the creation of Xenomorph again though
Riddles: Do you remember the Big Guy in the chair? ??? The Space Jockey! I don't remember who came with that stupid name, nor why the f**k the retarded people who came after me didn't answer that shit. ::)
But guess what: there is a story! 🥃🚬💨
**It was a dark and stormy night at some point of the precambrian era. And the Albino People said, Let there be Black Goo: and there was Black Goo. And the Albino Bald Guy drank the Goo, and it was deadly; and the Albino divided his DNA from the Goo. And Bald God said, Let us make Peter Weyland in our image, after our likeness: and let them find our biological weapons facility.**
But but!! Do you remember that everything looks Xeno-like inside the Space Donut of the Big Guy in the Chair? ???And and! the thousand of eggs covered by blue laser mist at the Jockey's basement? ??? Guess what, it's all coincidence! you little fool ;D
Just put some philosophical trivia in here and some fancy paintings over there and voila! The Space Jockeys are humans who created more humans who created fake humans who created the Alien. Now before you start with your backlash bullshit, you must consider the fact that my new human-made Alien is more Alien, cos I have totally alienated it from the original unkow Alien.
That being said! 🥃🚬💨
Forget the above lol
It's all crap anyway. For my third Disney prequel, I am going to scare the living shit out of you by revealing that the Big Guy in the Chair is actually Big and the Alien is actually Alien.
Riddles: Blomkamp's Alien is horseshit :-X
(https://i.imgur.com/cFjpnGd.jpg)
Quote from: Evanus on May 25, 2020, 12:03:08 AM
Here's the TRUTH about David.Spoiler
He transferred his conscience to JONESY. I mean look at this
(https://i0.wp.com/78.media.tumblr.com/8e1495c3b4bdc5ec04af116729db5b9b/tumblr_p87gb2JU331vigpn1o1_500.gif?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1) (https://i.imgur.com/EsHjl7k.gif?noredirect)
The resemblance is uncanny! Pretty convincing I'd say.[close]
I bet Scott is crazy enough to come up with this plot twist: Creator & Creation meeting again in another life, with the Alien having the high ground this time. Now the circle is complete! :laugh:
(https://i.imgur.com/3BpFUyz.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pWcp55b.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Evanus on May 25, 2020, 12:14:19 AM
Post by: Evanus on May 25, 2020, 12:14:19 AM
(https://www.alien-covenant.com/aliencovenant_uploads/mich.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on May 25, 2020, 12:35:25 AM
Post by: Kradan on May 25, 2020, 12:35:25 AM
Quote from: Kradan on May 24, 2020, 02:34:14 PM
But what you gonna do when it will turn out that Ripley was responsible all along ?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on May 25, 2020, 02:51:17 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on May 25, 2020, 02:51:17 AM
Quote from: Kradan on May 25, 2020, 12:35:25 AMQuote from: Kradan on May 24, 2020, 02:34:14 PM
But what you gonna do when it will turn out that Ripley was responsible all along ?
Does that mean Ripley was Michael Fassbender the whole time?
Or
Spoiler
The Alien prequels and The Predator could have been sharing the same universe! 😱👻☠️
(https://i.imgur.com/a2LudLJ.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/WDodQ7d.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/a2LudLJ.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/WDodQ7d.gif)
[close]
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Stitch on May 26, 2020, 06:26:35 AM
Post by: Stitch on May 26, 2020, 06:26:35 AM
It was Bishop all along
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on May 26, 2020, 07:07:45 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on May 26, 2020, 07:07:45 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2020, 12:29:38 PMThe counter to this is the well-worn adage, "Ridley Scott says a lot of things." ;D
There's wiggle room for anything. But until it wiggles out and isn't, it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjEF8QCLyW0
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on May 26, 2020, 11:00:02 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on May 26, 2020, 11:00:02 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 26, 2020, 07:07:45 AMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2020, 12:29:38 PMThe counter to this is the well-worn adage, "Ridley Scott says a lot of things." ;D
There's wiggle room for anything. But until it wiggles out and isn't, it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjEF8QCLyW0
The EU says a lot of things too :P
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on May 27, 2020, 03:11:33 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on May 27, 2020, 03:11:33 AM
The EU is more consistent than Ridley :P
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nightmare Asylum on May 27, 2020, 03:30:19 AM
Post by: Nightmare Asylum on May 27, 2020, 03:30:19 AM
But Ridley's musings, inconsistent as they may be, are often more intetesting. ;)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on May 27, 2020, 03:36:00 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on May 27, 2020, 03:36:00 AM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on May 27, 2020, 03:30:19 AMI believe we will have to agree to disagree on that one.
But Ridley's musings, inconsistent as they may be, are often more intetesting. ;)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on May 27, 2020, 02:49:25 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on May 27, 2020, 02:49:25 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on May 26, 2020, 11:00:02 PMQuote from: Xenomrph on May 26, 2020, 07:07:45 AMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2020, 12:29:38 PMThe counter to this is the well-worn adage, "Ridley Scott says a lot of things." ;D
There's wiggle room for anything. But until it wiggles out and isn't, it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjEF8QCLyW0
The EU says a lot of things too :P
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/1hBpHdYhBykSBSxIVK/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 11:40:17 AM
Post by: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 11:40:17 AM
David is an unreliable source for information and thus his having created the Xenomorphs is far from certain.
It really doesn't take much to reconcile the two series, if that's what one would want to do, so I'm often confused why folks will often say "the movies are incapable of being in the same universe without time travel shenanigans." Or other such widely offset ideas.
Anyhow, David never actually states that he made the ovomorphs. He spoke of experimenting on the parasites that emerged after he goo-bombed the city.
He lied about wiping out all non-botanical life on the planet (at least not immediately. After the egg sac fungi developed, they probably disrupted the ecosystem), and the evidence for it is inside his lab.
There are numerous normal insects within his lab and the skinned Engineer, as well as the failed Neomorph embryos, is evidence that there were still Engineers physically uncompromised after the attack to be used as host bodies.
There's too much wrong with what David says, he's clearly unhinged and is shown to be more than capable of lying.
"When one note is off, it eventually destroys the whole symphony, David."
There's also the fact that the Xenomorphs are very different to the ones from movies later in the timeline, right down to ovomorphs.
This can be handwaved by calling it a "Protomorph", but it's something that doesn't work for me personally.
My personal theory is that David used a mix of the Black Goo, Engineer hosts, Shaw's DNA and traditional Xenomorph ovomorphs the Engineers had and created a sort of hybrid between the Neomorph and the traditional Xenomorph.
Either way, whether he created them or not, the available evidence isn't conclusive.
There's nothing that directly contradicts the AvP movies and there's nothing that directly supports them either.
So, as of this time, it's totally up to preference.
It really doesn't take much to reconcile the two series, if that's what one would want to do, so I'm often confused why folks will often say "the movies are incapable of being in the same universe without time travel shenanigans." Or other such widely offset ideas.
Anyhow, David never actually states that he made the ovomorphs. He spoke of experimenting on the parasites that emerged after he goo-bombed the city.
He lied about wiping out all non-botanical life on the planet (at least not immediately. After the egg sac fungi developed, they probably disrupted the ecosystem), and the evidence for it is inside his lab.
There are numerous normal insects within his lab and the skinned Engineer, as well as the failed Neomorph embryos, is evidence that there were still Engineers physically uncompromised after the attack to be used as host bodies.
There's too much wrong with what David says, he's clearly unhinged and is shown to be more than capable of lying.
"When one note is off, it eventually destroys the whole symphony, David."
There's also the fact that the Xenomorphs are very different to the ones from movies later in the timeline, right down to ovomorphs.
This can be handwaved by calling it a "Protomorph", but it's something that doesn't work for me personally.
My personal theory is that David used a mix of the Black Goo, Engineer hosts, Shaw's DNA and traditional Xenomorph ovomorphs the Engineers had and created a sort of hybrid between the Neomorph and the traditional Xenomorph.
Either way, whether he created them or not, the available evidence isn't conclusive.
There's nothing that directly contradicts the AvP movies and there's nothing that directly supports them either.
So, as of this time, it's totally up to preference.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Drukathi on Jun 14, 2020, 12:07:34 PM
Post by: Drukathi on Jun 14, 2020, 12:07:34 PM
AvP films should not (and are not) be part of the canon, regardless of the actions of David. Crossovers generally should not be part of lore of the original (base) Universes.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 12:49:40 PM
Post by: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 12:49:40 PM
Quote from: Drukathi on Jun 14, 2020, 12:07:34 PM
AvP films should not (and are not) be part of the canon, regardless of the actions of David. Crossovers generally should not be part of lore of the original (base) Universes.
Like I said:
Quote from: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 11:40:17 AM
So, as of this time, it's totally up to preference.
But I must say that I don't actually understand the hatred of crossovers.
One can talk about the quality of the AvP movies we have, but I don't see how a crossover inherently and fundamentally detracts from either side's source.
I grew up on comics, so maybe I just have a nostalgic bias on the subject, but I've always found that they tend to open up more doors than they shut.
Why do you feel the way you do? In regards to your username, how do you feel about crossovers between mediums? What if the Drukathi are explored in a future sequel, despite having origins in the novels?
All the lines are too blurry for me, I think quality should be paramount.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Drukathi on Jun 14, 2020, 02:43:01 PM
Post by: Drukathi on Jun 14, 2020, 02:43:01 PM
Quote from: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 12:49:40 PM
But I must say that I don't actually understand the hatred of crossovers.
I like crossovers. I like AvP too - pc games, F&S, L&D, Rage Wars. I dream that in addition to the anthologies Aliens: Bug Hund and Predator: If it Bleeds - an AvP anthology will be written. But AvP films are...
Quote from: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 12:49:40 PM
One can talk about the quality of the AvP movies
The fundamental question of quality began with Alien 3. ::) Well, the main problem with AvP films (excluding poor quality) is that they are here - on Earth these days. This is the setting of the Predator, not the Alien. This creates an uncomfortable feeling that the Alien is standing below the Predator.
Quote from: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 12:49:40 PM
Why do you feel the way you do? In regards to your username, how do you feel about crossovers between mediums?
As I said, let everything remain on its franchises. Alien canon for Alien. Predator for Predator. AvP for AvP. But AvP doesn't even have a canon. It's just a sandbox. Not an universe.
I do not think that types of media can be called a crossover, this applies to universes, franchises, and not to media. Different types of media are a good way, but A for A, P for P, AvP for AvP.
Quote from: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 12:49:40 PM
What if the Drukathi are explored in a future sequel, despite having origins in the novels?
To place a monster from one universe to another - why not? The keyword is "monster". The mythology, lore and story of Rage Wars must be cut off. Rage Wars should not set rules for the Alien universe. But the Alien universe should not affect Rage Wars. Is it just a monster, like, well, an actor? But the works are independent.
And this is the mistake AvP films made - they tried to influence the universes of Alien and Predator. Set rules for them. To become for them a prequel, a sequel, a common link, knowledge, lore, event... They should never have ambitions to be a prequel to the Alien or a sequel to the Predator.
But whatever, if Drukati will live in dirty caves and play flute - I myself will go to live in a cave. Just to forget it. ;D
Quote from: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 12:49:40 PM
I think quality should be paramount.
This is the root of all problems since Alien 3. But my opinion is that all three franchises should have an independent canon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 04:28:01 PM
Post by: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 04:28:01 PM
Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything you said there. :)
I still think crossovers can work within the core canon of each franchise, it just needs to be handled correctly and there lies the rub.
I think it's very easy to do an AvP movie off Earth right, even on a lower budget. Ryushi, for example, could have been so easily adapted and filmed in America. There was really very little reason to set it on Earth in the first place, and it's frustrating that they took that path.
What I'd really love though, is a Predator movie set on an Alien Universe colony world in the throes of a violent uprising that has the main characters be USCM, but not include Xenomorphs or any mention of them. Expand the universe, create some new native species! Avp, The Predator, the Alien prequels... They all have the same damn flaw: they want to make the universe smaller rather than expand it.
It's what frustrates me to the core about the idea that David made the Xenomorphs. In my opinion, it is unnecessary and detracts, rather than expands. It feels like a desperate attempt to add walls that prevent narrative expansion. If David did create the Xenomorphs, they're shackled to him.
I still think crossovers can work within the core canon of each franchise, it just needs to be handled correctly and there lies the rub.
I think it's very easy to do an AvP movie off Earth right, even on a lower budget. Ryushi, for example, could have been so easily adapted and filmed in America. There was really very little reason to set it on Earth in the first place, and it's frustrating that they took that path.
What I'd really love though, is a Predator movie set on an Alien Universe colony world in the throes of a violent uprising that has the main characters be USCM, but not include Xenomorphs or any mention of them. Expand the universe, create some new native species! Avp, The Predator, the Alien prequels... They all have the same damn flaw: they want to make the universe smaller rather than expand it.
It's what frustrates me to the core about the idea that David made the Xenomorphs. In my opinion, it is unnecessary and detracts, rather than expands. It feels like a desperate attempt to add walls that prevent narrative expansion. If David did create the Xenomorphs, they're shackled to him.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 14, 2020, 06:24:43 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 14, 2020, 06:24:43 PM
Quote from: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 04:28:01 PMI like this idea quite a bit.
What I'd really love though, is a Predator movie set on an Alien Universe colony world in the throes of a violent uprising that has the main characters be USCM, but not include Xenomorphs or any mention of them.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jun 14, 2020, 08:13:30 PM
Post by: SM on Jun 14, 2020, 08:13:30 PM
Quote
There's also the fact that the Xenomorphs are very different to the ones from movies later in the timeline, right down to ovomorphs.
I've never found this argument to have any merit whatsoever. It looks very the same as the one in the first film. The ones in Aliens and Alien 3 look more different than the one in Covenant, but no one questions their authenticity.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on Jun 14, 2020, 08:52:56 PM
Post by: Kradan on Jun 14, 2020, 08:52:56 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 14, 2020, 08:13:30 PMQuote
There's also the fact that the Xenomorphs are very different to the ones from movies later in the timeline, right down to ovomorphs.
I've never found this argument to have any merit whatsoever. It looks very the same as the one in the first film. The ones in Aliens and Alien 3 look more different than the one in Covenant, but no one questions their authenticity.
I'm not sure about that
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 14, 2020, 10:01:25 PM
Post by: SiL on Jun 14, 2020, 10:01:25 PM
QuoteAnyhow, David never actually states that he made the ovomorphs. He spoke of experimenting on the parasites that emerged after he goo-bombed the city.Besides his in-progress eggs in the table, he announces the eggs as the fruits of his labour.
Quote from: Kradan on Jun 14, 2020, 08:52:56 PMI also disagree with SM (although maybe more on the "it looks very the same as the original" comment) but the point still stands that the designs are noticeably different every film and as such it's a weak argument.Quote from: SM on Jun 14, 2020, 08:13:30 PM
The ones in Aliens and Alien 3 look more different than the one in Covenant, but no one questions their authenticity.
I'm not sure about that
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jun 14, 2020, 10:16:08 PM
Post by: SM on Jun 14, 2020, 10:16:08 PM
"Very the same" was just a play on words from the post I was responding to, but it's the closest design to Giger's original and didn't have the very obvious differences of no dome and no back tubes.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 14, 2020, 10:21:20 PM
Post by: SiL on Jun 14, 2020, 10:21:20 PM
Sorry, I missed that about the word play.
I'd argue the complete lack of biomechanical detailing is just as striking as the dome or tubes, but ultimately we agree; all the films use notably different designs, it's not really indicative of anything.
Hell, the only times the designs weren't radically different was between AR and AvP. Are they the only legitimate Aliens? Enquiring minds need to know.
I'd argue the complete lack of biomechanical detailing is just as striking as the dome or tubes, but ultimately we agree; all the films use notably different designs, it's not really indicative of anything.
Hell, the only times the designs weren't radically different was between AR and AvP. Are they the only legitimate Aliens? Enquiring minds need to know.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jun 14, 2020, 10:55:37 PM
Post by: SM on Jun 14, 2020, 10:55:37 PM
The other odd argument I hear is the state of the Oram chestburster. Essentially being a mini-adult rather than a snake like creature. In Aliens the bursters had fully formed arms, in Alien 3 it was the same sort of deal as Oram (mini version of the adult), the Queen they took from Ripley had no crest or arms, and Purvis' burster didn't even seem to have the stumps that Kanes had.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 11:41:56 PM
Post by: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 11:41:56 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 14, 2020, 08:13:30 PM
I've never found this argument to have any merit whatsoever. It looks very the same as the one in the first film. The ones in Aliens and Alien 3 look more different than the one in Covenant, but no one questions their authenticity.
I can't see it, the ones in Aliens and Alien 3 look very similar to the original, and Alien 3 has the excuse of being for a Royal Facehugger in any case.
As for the "very the same", I'm not sure I understand the play on words, is it because I forgot the "the" before "ovomorphs"? :D
Quote from: SiL on Jun 14, 2020, 10:01:25 PM
Besides his in-progress eggs in the table, he announces the eggs as the fruits of his labour.
You're quite right, my mistake. Just rewatched the scene now and I'm surprised I didn't notice them.
Still, it can still fit with:
Quote from: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 11:40:17 AMThough now I think it makes more sense for it to have been Engineer stored Facehugger embryos like David regurgitated near the end, rather than Ovomorphs.
My personal theory is that David used a mix of the Black Goo, Engineer hosts, Shaw's DNA and traditional Xenomorph ovomorphs the Engineers had and created a sort of hybrid between the Neomorph and the traditional Xenomorph.
Quote from: SM on Jun 14, 2020, 10:55:37 PM
The other odd argument I hear is the state of the Oram chestburster. Essentially being a mini-adult rather than a snake like creature. In Aliens the bursters had fully formed arms, in Alien 3 it was the same sort of deal as Oram (mini version of the adult), the Queen they took from Ripley had no crest or arms, and Purvis' burster didn't even seem to have the stumps that Kanes had.
I actually agree here. Like you said, there's precedence for it.
I just don't like it because it looks ridiculous to me. :laugh:
It was the "jumping the shark" moment of the movie for me that kind of pulled me out of my suspension of disbelief. The scene seemed more out of a parody. :P
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Evanus on Jun 14, 2020, 11:47:16 PM
Post by: Evanus on Jun 14, 2020, 11:47:16 PM
Aliens and Alien 3 look pretty different to me, 3 especially.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 14, 2020, 11:59:42 PM
Post by: SiL on Jun 14, 2020, 11:59:42 PM
Quote from: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 11:41:56 PMBesides the more developed burster and the faster implant times, there's really no difference between the Covenant Alien and regular ones -- what did he actually achieve? Even then, those other two things have precedents in the series, they're not even unique to that film.
Still, it can still fit with:Quote from: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 11:40:17 AM
My personal theory is that David used a mix of the Black Goo, Engineer hosts, Shaw's DNA and traditional Xenomorph ovomorphs the Engineers had and created a sort of hybrid between the Neomorph and the traditional Xenomorph.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jun 15, 2020, 10:11:30 AM
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Jun 15, 2020, 10:11:30 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 14, 2020, 10:55:37 PM
The other odd argument I hear is the state of the Oram chestburster. Essentially being a mini-adult rather than a snake like creature. In Aliens the bursters had fully formed arms, in Alien 3 it was the same sort of deal as Oram (mini version of the adult), the Queen they took from Ripley had no crest or arms, and Purvis' burster didn't even seem to have the stumps that Kanes had.
Even then, it still sort of comes out as that snake and very very quickly sheds that skin to find the mini version beneath.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: JokersWarPig on Jun 15, 2020, 01:03:05 PM
Post by: JokersWarPig on Jun 15, 2020, 01:03:05 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jun 14, 2020, 11:59:42 PMQuote from: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 11:41:56 PMBesides the more developed burster and the faster implant times, there's really no difference between the Covenant Alien and regular ones -- what did he actually achieve? Even then, those other two things have precedents in the series, they're not even unique to that film.
Still, it can still fit with:Quote from: Kurai on Jun 14, 2020, 11:40:17 AM
My personal theory is that David used a mix of the Black Goo, Engineer hosts, Shaw's DNA and traditional Xenomorph ovomorphs the Engineers had and created a sort of hybrid between the Neomorph and the traditional Xenomorph.
The covenant alien is significantly more fleshy than Big Chap or the warriors...so what ever David did create (would at least seem to be) more vulnerable than the ones from the first two films.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 15, 2020, 09:12:10 PM
Post by: SiL on Jun 15, 2020, 09:12:10 PM
Nothing indicates it's more vulnerable. One gets shot and burned by thrusters and shrugs it off before being crushed, another gets blown out an airlock.
And it's not like they're the first fleshy Aliens we've seen.
And it's not like they're the first fleshy Aliens we've seen.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: David Weyland on Jun 15, 2020, 10:09:17 PM
Post by: David Weyland on Jun 15, 2020, 10:09:17 PM
You could argue that no Xeno is the same, by having variables in its growth, appearance and characteristics (Despite each one taking elements of their host) in line with Darwinian theory that the variability is another aspect of its durability as a species
Also I like to think the reason why Kane's son took so long to pop was due to the dormant stasis of the Derelicts eggs at the very least a few years was the reason for the slow impregnation and gestation
Also I like to think the reason why Kane's son took so long to pop was due to the dormant stasis of the Derelicts eggs at the very least a few years was the reason for the slow impregnation and gestation
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 15, 2020, 11:26:21 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 15, 2020, 11:26:21 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 15, 2020, 10:11:30 AMQuote from: SM on Jun 14, 2020, 10:55:37 PM
The other odd argument I hear is the state of the Oram chestburster. Essentially being a mini-adult rather than a snake like creature. In Aliens the bursters had fully formed arms, in Alien 3 it was the same sort of deal as Oram (mini version of the adult), the Queen they took from Ripley had no crest or arms, and Purvis' burster didn't even seem to have the stumps that Kanes had.
Even then, it still sort of comes out as that snake and very very quickly sheds that skin to find the mini version beneath.
Little fella looks like a sausage coming out :laugh:
(https://i.imgur.com/TWGR0i2.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 16, 2020, 04:33:17 PM
Post by: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 16, 2020, 04:33:17 PM
Covenant has really grown on me a lot in retrospect, particularly since I've been doing some deep dives into particle physics, general relativity and quantum mechanics; animal biology and intelligence and I've been listening to a lot of Ray Kurzweil mp4s.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 17, 2020, 01:07:57 PM
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 17, 2020, 01:07:57 PM
Quote from: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 16, 2020, 04:33:17 PM
Covenant has really grown on me a lot in retrospect, particularly since I've been doing some deep dives into particle physics, general relativity and quantum mechanics; animal biology and intelligence and I've been listening to a lot of Ray Kurzweil mp4s.
That's weird, given that Covenant shits on all those fields pretty rapidly.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 15, 2020, 09:12:10 PM
And it's not like they're the first fleshy Aliens we've seen.
Resurrection has a specific directive behind it that lead to the Alien's looking the way they did. If Paul Anderson had his way, we would have had big chaps, or big-chap-esques in AVP. AVP Requiem was made for a dollar and some change, so they had no money for completely new Alien suits.
I know, I know. It's what is on screen that matters.
For me it is far easier to simply say David made HIS aliens and leave the door wide open for the Aliens to progenitor and come form somewhere else.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 17, 2020, 02:11:15 PM
Post by: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 17, 2020, 02:11:15 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 17, 2020, 01:07:57 PM
That's weird, given that Covenant shits on all those fields pretty rapidly.
We still don't really understand any of them. And there's a reason its called science-fiction. Alien has always been more fiction than science.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔈𝔦𝔤𝔥𝔱𝔥 𝔓𝔞𝔰𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔤𝔢𝔯 on Jun 17, 2020, 04:46:00 PM
Post by: 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔈𝔦𝔤𝔥𝔱𝔥 𝔓𝔞𝔰𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔤𝔢𝔯 on Jun 17, 2020, 04:46:00 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 17, 2020, 01:07:57 PM
Resurrection has a specific directive behind it that lead to the Alien's looking the way they did. If Paul Anderson had his way, we would have had big chaps, or big-chap-esques in AVP. AVP Requiem was made for a dollar and some change, so they had no money for completely new Alien suits.
I know, I know. It's what is on screen that matters.
For me it is far easier to simply say David made HIS aliens and leave the door wide open for the Aliens to progenitor and come form somewhere else.
Apparently that is also part of Covenant's story. As the production designer, Chris Seegers said, they were eventually going to move into Giger territory.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: JokersWarPig on Jun 17, 2020, 05:08:08 PM
Post by: JokersWarPig on Jun 17, 2020, 05:08:08 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jun 15, 2020, 09:12:10 PM
Nothing indicates it's more vulnerable. One gets shot and burned by thrusters and shrugs it off before being crushed, another gets blown out an airlock.
And it's not like they're the first fleshy Aliens we've seen.
Well in Aliens we see Vaz's .45 rounds ping off its face from close range, hence why I say Davids seems more vulnerable. In Alien/Aliens they're more biomechanical and have a hard exoskeleton. They're basically armored and the only reason I'd say pulse rifles work against them is because the ammunition is explosive tipped.
The Rez aliens are fleshy on purpose because the cloning and thats based after Covenant anyway. Covenants xeno has no business being fleshy if its supposed to be the same kind that we see in Alien and thats one reason why I'll argue that they aren't the same species/David didn't make the xenomorph as we know from the first two films. Thats not even including the life cycle differences.
Xeno's aren't meant to be fleshy.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 17, 2020, 06:00:03 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 17, 2020, 06:00:03 PM
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jun 17, 2020, 04:46:00 PMQuote from: OpenMaw on Jun 17, 2020, 01:07:57 PM
Resurrection has a specific directive behind it that lead to the Alien's looking the way they did. If Paul Anderson had his way, we would have had big chaps, or big-chap-esques in AVP. AVP Requiem was made for a dollar and some change, so they had no money for completely new Alien suits.
I know, I know. It's what is on screen that matters.
For me it is far easier to simply say David made HIS aliens and leave the door wide open for the Aliens to progenitor and come form somewhere else.
Apparently that is also part of Covenant's story. As the production designer, Chris Seegers said, they were eventually going to move into Giger territory.
David's Alien is the best fleshy Alien since Alien ³. It's like a anatomy drawing of Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci brought to life.
(https://i.imgur.com/yf6G3oG.jpg)
It's still a blueprint though. The future is biomechanical as Seegers said.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 17, 2020, 01:07:57 PMQuote from: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 16, 2020, 04:33:17 PM
Covenant has really grown on me a lot in retrospect, particularly since I've been doing some deep dives into particle physics, general relativity and quantum mechanics; animal biology and intelligence and I've been listening to a lot of Ray Kurzweil mp4s.
That's weird, given that Covenant shits on all those fields pretty rapidly.
It took Prometheus its first 5 minutes to do that.
(https://i.imgur.com/pNdh0aW.jpg)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Evanus on Jun 17, 2020, 06:05:52 PM
Post by: Evanus on Jun 17, 2020, 06:05:52 PM
Pretty sure all Alien films "shit on all those fields", from that perspective.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 17, 2020, 06:13:06 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 17, 2020, 06:13:06 PM
Quote from: Evanus on Jun 17, 2020, 06:05:52 PM
Pretty sure all Alien films "shit on all those fields", from that perspective.
Is not so bad anyways. The Alien series never tried to be hard science fiction. There are similarities in real-world biology to Alien biology. But it is still a fictional piece that follows its own rules.
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Jun 17, 2020, 05:08:08 PM
Xeno's aren't meant to be fleshy.
Unlike the prequels, in wich you have a story than goes from less to more, in AVP movies you have less excuses, and leaving aside the behind scenes motives, is not a story of origins. In fact I would take AVP movies more seriously as true prequels if only the Aliens who fought the Predators had been biomechanical. Something like Stompy from Alien Isolation would be acceptable too.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Evanus on Jun 17, 2020, 06:30:08 PM
Post by: Evanus on Jun 17, 2020, 06:30:08 PM
Yep. One thing that does seem silly to me is the alien queen being present in Ripley's clone in Resurrection. But I suppose you shouldn't take the film too seriously. :D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 17, 2020, 09:00:06 PM
Post by: SiL on Jun 17, 2020, 09:00:06 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 17, 2020, 01:07:57 PMIt's simpler if you just ignore what the film says, yes. :P
For me it is far easier to simply say David made HIS aliens and leave the door wide open for the Aliens to progenitor and come form somewhere else.
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Jun 17, 2020, 05:08:08 PMVasquez blows an Alien's head open. Some of Gorman's shots bounce off.
Well in Aliens we see Vaz's .45 rounds ping off its face from close range, hence why I say Davids seems more vulnerable.
Both were using pistols, which we don't see used in Covenant.
QuoteThe Rez aliens are fleshy on purpose because the cloning and thats based after Covenant anyway. Covenants xeno has no business being fleshy if its supposed to be the same kind that we see in Alien and thats one reason why I'll argue that they aren't the same species/David didn't make the xenomorph as we know from the first two films. Thats not even including the life cycle differences.David's does have a reason: he hasn't added the biomechanical aspects yet. It was done on purpose just like the AR Aliens.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 01:00:43 AM
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 01:00:43 AM
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jun 17, 2020, 04:46:00 PM
Apparently that is also part of Covenant's story. As the production designer, Chris Seegers said, they were eventually going to move into Giger territory.
Right, that's what I was getting at. Outside of Resurrection it was a question of economic necessity. Paul insisted they do them up in black for AVP and it was more economic to reuse Resurrection stuff. Same for AVP:R.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 17, 2020, 09:00:06 PM
It's simpler if you just ignore what the film says, yes. :P
Where does the film explicitly say that David created the original Aliens? It says he made the ones we see in Covenant, but the film does not explicitly state that he's the first to do what he has done, and given the fact that the engineers had their hands on goo for a much longer time than David, they probably got around to it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jun 18, 2020, 01:45:24 AM
Post by: SM on Jun 18, 2020, 01:45:24 AM
"I've created it [the Alien]. Perfect organism."
The whole film is about creation.
Some people could be hit over the head with a house brick that says 'David created the Alien' and still stick their fingers in their ears and go la-la-la-la-la.
The whole film is about creation.
Some people could be hit over the head with a house brick that says 'David created the Alien' and still stick their fingers in their ears and go la-la-la-la-la.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 02:07:09 AM
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 02:07:09 AM
I mean how much more explicit can the film get, honestly? A character literally says "I have made this thing" and then reveals the thing he has made is the Alien.
There is really nothing more Covenant could do to make its point.
There is really nothing more Covenant could do to make its point.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 02:10:39 AM
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 02:10:39 AM
That's his word, not the narrative word. He is demonstrably unreliable.
He made that batch of eggs, that does not mean that he is the original creator of the alien as we know it.
He made that batch of eggs, that does not mean that he is the original creator of the alien as we know it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 18, 2020, 02:16:02 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 18, 2020, 02:16:02 AM
Quote from: SM on Jun 18, 2020, 01:45:24 AM
"I've created it [the Alien]. Perfect organism."
The whole film is about creation.
Some people could be hit over the head with a house brick that says 'David created the Alien' and still stick their fingers in their ears and go la-la-la-la-la.
If you put that "la-la-la-la-la" in a traslator, you get: the house brick says a lot of things.
Edit: that was a joke. I know David is the creator. ;D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 02:17:00 AM
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 02:17:00 AM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 02:10:39 AMThe narrative is also that David made the Aliens, hence the scene of him describing how he made the Alien, and also the complete lack of any attempt to show that there are already Aliens elsewhere.
That's his word, not the narrative word. He is demonstrably unreliable.
He made that batch of eggs, that does not mean that he is the original creator of the alien as we know it.
"Where does it say in the film ..." works both ways; the difference is Covenant actually says one of the things.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 02:18:29 AM
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 02:18:29 AM
Quote from: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 02:17:00 AMQuote from: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 02:10:39 AMThe narrative is also that David made the Aliens, hence the scene of him describing how he made the Alien, and also the complete lack of any attempt to show that there are already Aliens elsewhere.
That's his word, not the narrative word. He is demonstrably unreliable.
He made that batch of eggs, that does not mean that he is the original creator of the alien as we know it.
"Where does it say in the film ..." works both ways; the difference is Covenant actually says one of the things.
The film also makes it pretty clear David is a liar and unhinged. He lies about the events that lead up to not only him being there, but the pathogen as well. He murdered Shaw, he murdered the Engineers. He also gets his facts wrong. ALL perfect ways to explain that he is not the creator of the Aliens, he only thinks he is. Creation and Deception are equally represented in Covenant.
Oh and most important of all, the man he explains exactly how he created the Alien all by himself? He tells him the egg is perfectly safe and "something to see."
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jun 18, 2020, 02:20:58 AM
Post by: SM on Jun 18, 2020, 02:20:58 AM
If they wanted to show David was lying about it or mistaken - they would've made the point it in the film. Like they revealed that he was lying about Shaw.
Positing theories that he might be wrong is just baseless fanon.
Positing theories that he might be wrong is just baseless fanon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 02:28:21 AM
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 02:28:21 AM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 02:18:29 AMThe film also makes it clear when he's lying or mistaken by explicitly revealing when he is lying or mistaken.
The film also makes it pretty clear David is a liar and unhinged. He lies about the events that lead up to not only him being there, but the pathogen as well. He murdered Shaw, he murdered the Engineers. He also get's his facts wrong. ALL perfect ways to explain that he is not the creator of the Aliens, he only thinks he is. Creation and Deception are equally represented in Covenant.
It doesn't do that with the Alien.
The film also doesn't say there are other Aliens anywhere else, that the Engineers already made them, or even gives a reason why there would be Aliens beforehand either.
More importantly, David also doesn't take credit for other people's work during the film. That's entirely against what he's about. He misattributes a quote -- but doesn't claim it as his own. The black goo is pure creation -- but he doesn't tell these people, who have literally no way of knowing otherwise, that he made it.
Why would he take credit for something the Engineers made, and if he was going to, why not the accelerant?
The narrative of Covenant is as clear as it can possibly be that David is the creator of the Alien. That's the narrative thoroughly woven into the fabric of the story it tells.
"He may be wrong!"
Sure, later, maybe, but for now he's not and trying to argue Covenant says otherwise is wishful thinking.
EDIT
Or as SM put it
Quote from: SM on Jun 18, 2020, 02:20:58 AM
baseless fanon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 02:55:47 AM
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 02:55:47 AM
Quote from: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 02:28:21 AM
Sure, later, maybe, but for now he's not and trying to argue Covenant says otherwise is wishful thinking.
I didn't say that. I said that Covenant does not explicitly state it. David does, but David makes mistakes. He's also a compulsive liar. Whether he did or did not claim other things as his own does not matter. It served his means to say that the pathogen was an accident because it was at least enough to leave the shell shocked survivors somewhat at ease with their new "friend."
I can see very easily how someone can take what Covenant portrays of David and simply expand it.
Again, he misappropriates the quote. He could just as easily misappropriate things that he discovered in the city that lead him to the creation of the Alien which is exactly what the Engineers had done before him in the thousands of years they had the pathogen at their disposal.
To say nothing of the fact that Prometheus makes it very clear that the Engineers were actively experimenting with and even worshiped/revering a creature very similar to the Alien.
You're going to tell me that the Engineers in their eons of having this stuff, never came up with this particular recipe, but David, with some sticks and jars and medieval level tech, was able to do it in a decade?
It's an unhealthy creative place to take the series. It has literally boxed the series in.
Quote from: SM on Jun 18, 2020, 02:20:58 AM
If they wanted to show David was lying about it or mistaken - they would've made the point it in the film. Like they revealed that he was lying about Shaw.
They do stress the point that he's a liar in the scene we're talking about.
Go ahead, stick your face in there, Oram. My creation is perfectly safe.
Even with that, he calls it perfect... When the very people who made the movie have said the alien wasn't actually final yet, and the intention was to introduce the biomechanics into it next time out. So it isn't perfect yet if it isn't done cooking, no?
My point is this does not have to be set in stone. At all. David is painted as misquoting, misremembering, deceiving, outright lying, and carrying a rather large ego. There is no reason that the next film has to be bound by what David says, because David is both fallible and a liar. Self deception is a form of lying. Saying that it's explicit and set in stone when the film makes it perfectly clear you can't trust the g*ddamned robot at all says to me we can ignore it for the sake of the future of the series. It's a stupid plot point, and it should be ignored at the earliest opportunity.
To say that the film is obvious in the contrary, when it's really not. David can say whatever he wants. He can show Oram a million pretty pictures and bisected mutations caused by the pathogen. He can even make his own eggs. That does not mean he was actually the first to do it. No matter how many times you want to say that it does, it doesn't. What it says is that he says that he is.
The rest of the Alien series does not need to be shackled with such a hackneyed and poor revelation. It can do way, way, way better and for decades the prevailing and assumed backstory that the aliens came from far out somewhere else and from a far off time was far more compelling and far more rich with story potential.
What's weird is in the end you agreed with me, SiL. "Later, maybe." Yeah, the only way that works if there is the wiggle room that i'm talking about.
AS far as we know there is no official later to come out of this series. Covenant may be the last Alien film we ever see, short of a remake or a reboot. So arguing the point that Covenant does not creatively box in the entire franchise, I think, is the healthier direction to take the discussion than to say NOPE, David did it, can't find a way around that at all. He is the creator of the Alien. Can't take it any other way.
Do you see what i'm saying? I'm not questioning the INTENTION of Covenant. Which is why we're butting heads here. I'm speaking to possibilities, potential, theorizing on ways to get out of the cul de sac Covenant puts the series into.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 18, 2020, 03:03:54 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 18, 2020, 03:03:54 AM
Quote from: SilWhy would he take credit for something the Engineers made, and if he was going to, why not the accelerant?
Indeed. Actually, there is a part in the movie where he credits the accelerant for the random results until he started experimenting for himself:
Quote from: DavidThe pathogen took so many forms... and was extremely mutable. Fiendishly invented, in fact. The original liquid atomized to... particles when exposed to the air. Ten years on, all the remains... outside of the original virus... Are these gorgeous beasts. Patience is everything. From the eggs came these parasites... Shock troops of the genetic assault. Waiting for a host entering the host... rewriting the DNA... Ultimately... producing... well, these enviable unions. My beautiful bestiary. Soon enough I began a bit of genetic experimentation of my own.
So yes. I would say that the film show us what the pathogen can do, and then reveals that David took another less random direction to create the Alien.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 02:55:47 AMQuote from: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 02:28:21 AMYou're going to tell me that the Engineers in their eons of having this stuff, never came up with this particular recipe, but David, with some sticks and jars and medieval level tech, was able to do it in a decade?
Sure, later, maybe, but for now he's not and trying to argue Covenant says otherwise is wishful thinking.
I don't think the Alien is a progress. Rather the opposite. Yeah, the Alien species is more resistant and all. But the black virus is better biological weapon and more effective than the Alien.
Just a little bit of the virus and you kill everything: No Facehuggers, No Aliens, No Queen and No hive. Just a few recyclable monsters to kill what was left alive.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jun 18, 2020, 03:18:26 AM
Post by: SM on Jun 18, 2020, 03:18:26 AM
QuoteI'm speaking to possibilities, potential, theorizing on ways to get out of the cul de sac Covenant puts the series into.
Or in other words -
Quote from: SM on Jun 18, 2020, 02:20:58 AM
baseless fanon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 03:48:43 AM
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 03:48:43 AM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 02:55:47 AMQuote from: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 02:28:21 AM
Sure, later, maybe, but for now he's not and trying to argue Covenant says otherwise is wishful thinking.
I didn't say that.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 02:10:39 AM
That's his word, not the narrative word.
If the narrative of the film was that David is lying about making the Alien, the narrative of the film would have said that he was lying about making the Alien. It very much does not.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 04:00:35 AM
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 04:00:35 AM
Alright.
The Alien is the creation of David and there's nothing that can be done about it.
The Alien is the creation of David and there's nothing that can be done about it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 04:27:40 AM
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 04:27:40 AM
No, because the narrative of another film could be that David was wrong.
The problem is people keep trying to conflate "there's room for it to be undone" with "therefor Covenant doesn't say anything definitively." It's a possibility it could change -- but it could also not. Even a film did "undo" that aspect, the narrative of the film Alien Covenant is still establishing David as the creator of the Alien.
Saying that there's wiggle room, and therefor it's correct to assume David is wrong and what we prefer is right, is, well, "baseless fanon."
The problem is people keep trying to conflate "there's room for it to be undone" with "therefor Covenant doesn't say anything definitively." It's a possibility it could change -- but it could also not. Even a film did "undo" that aspect, the narrative of the film Alien Covenant is still establishing David as the creator of the Alien.
Saying that there's wiggle room, and therefor it's correct to assume David is wrong and what we prefer is right, is, well, "baseless fanon."
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 18, 2020, 04:50:39 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 18, 2020, 04:50:39 AM
Quote from: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 04:27:40 AM
No, because the narrative of another film could be that David was wrong.
The problem is people keep trying to conflate "there's room for it to be undone" with "therefor Covenant doesn't say anything definitively." It's a possibility it could change -- but it could also not. Even a film did "undo" that aspect, the narrative of the film Alien Covenant is still establishing David as the creator of the Alien.
Saying that there's wiggle room, and therefor it's correct to assume David is wrong and what we prefer is right, is, well, "baseless fanon."
You don't even like to dream about the following:
It's canon David saying he is the creator.
It's not canon he's right.
Edit - are you a robot? :'(
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 04:00:35 AM
Alright.
The Alien is the creation of David and there's nothing that can be done about it.
There have been occasions when the somewhat toxic fans have achieved what they wanted, such as the Sonic live action or the Snyder Cut. I'm not sure if one can do something like that with Alien / Predator though.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 04:57:07 AM
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 04:57:07 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 18, 2020, 04:50:39 AMI'd love for that to be the case.
You don't even like to dream about the following:
It's canon David saying he is the creator.
It's not canon he's right.
Until it is, though...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 18, 2020, 06:00:31 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 18, 2020, 06:00:31 AM
Quote from: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 04:57:07 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 18, 2020, 04:50:39 AMI'd love for that to be the case.
You don't even like to dream about the following:
It's canon David saying he is the creator.
It's not canon he's right.
Until it is, though...
Well that's great. It's just that I sometimes forget that bad faith in forums is a thing.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 06:29:17 AM
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 06:29:17 AM
What part of what I've said is in bad fath?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 18, 2020, 06:49:11 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 18, 2020, 06:49:11 AM
What? No no NO! I mean when people believe something (like that David isn't the creator of the capital Alien) even though the facts contradict such beliefs. My apologies if I expressed myself wrong.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 07:12:00 AM
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 07:12:00 AM
No, all good!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jun 18, 2020, 08:32:57 AM
Post by: SM on Jun 18, 2020, 08:32:57 AM
Quote from: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 04:27:40 AM
No, because the narrative of another film could be that David was wrong.
The problem is people keep trying to conflate "there's room for it to be undone" with "therefor Covenant doesn't say anything definitively." It's a possibility it could change -- but it could also not. Even a film did "undo" that aspect, the narrative of the film Alien Covenant is still establishing David as the creator of the Alien.
Saying that there's wiggle room, and therefor it's correct to assume David is wrong and what we prefer is right, is, well, "baseless fanon."
All this.
I had discussions with licensing about reconciling things from an EU perspective and books that had the Aliens being ancient and one idea was to have a future project where the protagonists find ancient Giger-esque bas reliefs that had the Aliens on them which illustrated to the reader (or player) that there were Aliens before the ones David made.
In the short term there was no need and the plan to address it was to not address it. Because Ripley wasn't going to acknowledge some comic it was a topic best avoided.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jun 18, 2020, 09:32:29 AM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jun 18, 2020, 09:32:29 AM
The David Creation Debate,
official sequel to the Egg on Sulaco Debate.
Seriously, Disney. Finish this shit.
official sequel to the Egg on Sulaco Debate.
Seriously, Disney. Finish this shit.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: JokersWarPig on Jun 18, 2020, 02:21:04 PM
Post by: JokersWarPig on Jun 18, 2020, 02:21:04 PM
Well when you do a half ass job on your prequel movie and your monster and its life cycle look nothing like they do in the original, and you make decisions that ruin a lot of what makes that monster "alien"...people are going to argue if that monster is really the same as the one in the original.
The narrative can say all it wants, but if you aren't making it clear through the visuals then you're failing at making a prequel. Hell, as bad as it was at times at least The Thing (2011) is a very clear prequel to the original....Covenant doesn't do a good job of being "clear" in that regard.
God please no
Just let Alien and Predator be dead for the next 5 or 10 years, let everyone forget the last entries to either franchise and lets try again with new directors and a better direction for each.
The narrative can say all it wants, but if you aren't making it clear through the visuals then you're failing at making a prequel. Hell, as bad as it was at times at least The Thing (2011) is a very clear prequel to the original....Covenant doesn't do a good job of being "clear" in that regard.
Quote from: David's Creation on Jun 18, 2020, 09:32:29 AM
Seriously, Disney. Finish this shit.
God please no
Just let Alien and Predator be dead for the next 5 or 10 years, let everyone forget the last entries to either franchise and lets try again with new directors and a better direction for each.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 18, 2020, 02:40:30 PM
Post by: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 18, 2020, 02:40:30 PM
Well, if we and all life on Earth, and the universe, came from Engineers, then we are the Alien.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: David Weyland on Jun 18, 2020, 03:53:43 PM
Post by: David Weyland on Jun 18, 2020, 03:53:43 PM
Exactly! That is the irony and the point the prequels are leading to
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 18, 2020, 04:01:47 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 18, 2020, 04:01:47 PM
So this is essentially the same situation that Star Wars fans faced after TESB when it was still up in the air as to whether Vader really was Luke's father until it was confirmed in ROTJ.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jun 18, 2020, 06:01:57 PM
Post by: Nukiemorph on Jun 18, 2020, 06:01:57 PM
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Jun 18, 2020, 02:21:04 PMQuote from: David's Creation on Jun 18, 2020, 09:32:29 AM
Seriously, Disney. Finish this shit.
God please no
Just let Alien and Predator be dead for the next 5 or 10 years, let everyone forget the last entries to either franchise and lets try again with new directors and a better direction for each.
Won't happen unless new prequels/sequels actively render these prequel non-canon.
It's been 28 years since Alien 3 and nobody's forgotten that. Still arguing about the egg.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: kwisatz on Jun 18, 2020, 07:34:21 PM
Post by: kwisatz on Jun 18, 2020, 07:34:21 PM
Quote from: David's Creation on Jun 18, 2020, 06:01:57 PM
Still arguing about the egg.
As if!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 18, 2020, 08:08:19 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 18, 2020, 08:08:19 PM
When in doubt....
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 09:05:27 PM
Post by: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 09:05:27 PM
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Jun 18, 2020, 02:21:04 PMGuy shows his work in progress and presents something that looks like an unfinished Alien.
The narrative can say all it wants, but if you aren't making it clear through the visuals then you're failing at making a prequel.
The movie did plenty. You just don't like it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Jun 18, 2020, 10:21:14 PM
Post by: SM on Jun 18, 2020, 10:21:14 PM
*Twenty minute sequence where David explains how he got the inspiration, then goes into lengthy detail about genetic engineering and gene splicing, details all the steps along the way from the teeny little bug to the facehugger egg*
"Nuh - not enough detail."
Apart from the bit when George Lucas came out and said in interviews "Oh yeah. Vader is totes Luke's dad."
"Nuh - not enough detail."
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 18, 2020, 04:01:47 PM
So this is essentially the same situation that Star Wars fans faced after TESB when it was still up in the air as to whether Vader really was Luke's father until it was confirmed in ROTJ.
Apart from the bit when George Lucas came out and said in interviews "Oh yeah. Vader is totes Luke's dad."
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 18, 2020, 10:24:16 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 18, 2020, 10:24:16 PM
Why does Riddles say things in interviews?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Jun 18, 2020, 11:19:16 PM
Post by: Huggs on Jun 18, 2020, 11:19:16 PM
Because he's not content to merely sit in the dark, smoking, and holding a deep, authoritative gaze of hard questioning at the interviewer.
Which dare I say would make for much better publicity.
Which dare I say would make for much better publicity.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 19, 2020, 12:15:25 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 19, 2020, 12:15:25 AM
Quote from: David's Creation on Jun 18, 2020, 09:32:29 AM
The David Creation Debate,
official sequel to the Egg on Sulaco Debate.
Seriously, Disney. Finish this shit.
With the big difference that David creating the Alien is not a plot hole.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It's clear as the translucent dome of an Alien in which you can see a skull and yet, somehow, we can't reach consensus!!!!
ಥ_ಥ
ಥ_ಥ
ಥ_ಥ
How can you explain this phenomenon? ???
Edit: But since not everyone likes the skull, I guess this is almost the same. :laugh:
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: David Weyland on Jun 19, 2020, 12:36:56 AM
Post by: David Weyland on Jun 19, 2020, 12:36:56 AM
If you entertain the thought that they went with the Xenos being some ancient species it would leave the origin question still hanging and unresolved; if they came from a Xeno Prime planet you'd be asking how did that come about and evolve. It would be predictable and boring along some Darwinian line
If they were the creation of the Engineers or fabled Space Jockey, they would be nothing more than weapons
At least with David creating them there is something interesting and darkly perverse of human created AI bringing it together to get revenge on his human masters.
Plus as its Humans watching the damn movie it triggers us to reflect on our own question of existence, our forms of creation and the consequences.
It's more of an intriguing head***k this way, keep going Riddles I say, just sort the dialogue and characterisation out please
Everyone(Through no fault of their own) have been caught on the term Alien and what that means.
The comic book fanboys( and I like the comics) were presented with a more simple concept in the EU until Prometheus came along and are annoyed that hasn't been delivered and in my opinion have been challenged instead with something more deep and disturbing.
It also is a way of honouring the Ash subplot and its motivations
To change tack now to something akin to the comics would be dumbing down and chicken
If they were the creation of the Engineers or fabled Space Jockey, they would be nothing more than weapons
At least with David creating them there is something interesting and darkly perverse of human created AI bringing it together to get revenge on his human masters.
Plus as its Humans watching the damn movie it triggers us to reflect on our own question of existence, our forms of creation and the consequences.
It's more of an intriguing head***k this way, keep going Riddles I say, just sort the dialogue and characterisation out please
Everyone(Through no fault of their own) have been caught on the term Alien and what that means.
The comic book fanboys( and I like the comics) were presented with a more simple concept in the EU until Prometheus came along and are annoyed that hasn't been delivered and in my opinion have been challenged instead with something more deep and disturbing.
It also is a way of honouring the Ash subplot and its motivations
To change tack now to something akin to the comics would be dumbing down and chicken
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: OmegaZilla on Jun 19, 2020, 09:42:57 AM
Post by: OmegaZilla on Jun 19, 2020, 09:42:57 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 19, 2020, 12:15:25 AMQuite easy - people don't like the idea that the Alien was David's creation, so they're attempting to construe logical arguments to contradict what's directly stated in a canonical film and in behind-the-scenes interviews that offer a quite univocal version of thingsHow can you explain this phenomenon? ???
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 19, 2020, 06:02:13 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 19, 2020, 06:02:13 PM
Quote from: Omegamorph on Jun 19, 2020, 09:42:57 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 19, 2020, 12:15:25 AMQuite easy - people don't like the idea that the Alien was David's creation, so they're attempting to construe logical arguments to contradict what's directly stated in a canonical film and in behind-the-scenes interviews that offer a quite univocal version of thingsHow can you explain this phenomenon? ???
(https://i.imgur.com/wBv2trP.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 21, 2020, 02:23:11 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 21, 2020, 02:23:11 AM
Quote from: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 04:27:40 AMGiven the evidence across the series, we have ample reason to believe he's wrong. We don't even need another movie to "confirm" that. That's the crux of the argument. We already have the narrative of another film saying he's wrong, it came out in 1979.
No, because the narrative of another film could be that David was wrong.
The problem is people keep trying to conflate "there's room for it to be undone" with "therefor Covenant doesn't say anything definitively." It's a possibility it could change -- but it could also not. Even a film did "undo" that aspect, the narrative of the film Alien Covenant is still establishing David as the creator of the Alien.
Saying that there's wiggle room, and therefor it's correct to assume David is wrong and what we prefer is right, is, well, "baseless fanon."
Citing the existing movies and saying "Well, the movies aren't airtight, therefore this is what I believe" isn't "baseless fanon", there's a pretty strong basis in what people are believing. It's an opinion, it's what people choose to believe. :)
Will a future film confirm or deny it? We don't know, so what we're left is what currently exists and the conclusions people draw from it.
Quote from: Omegamorph on Jun 19, 2020, 09:42:57 AMYou're conflating the reason someone is arguing something with the argument itself. Ridley Scott says a lot of things, his movies speak for themselves just fine without some "word of god" as a universal arbiter of truth.Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 19, 2020, 12:15:25 AMQuite easy - people don't like the idea that the Alien was David's creation, so they're attempting to construe logical arguments to contradict what's directly stated in a canonical film and in behind-the-scenes interviews that offer a quite univocal version of thingsHow can you explain this phenomenon? ???
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 18, 2020, 04:50:39 AMThis right here.
It's canon David saying he is the creator.
It's not canon he's right.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 21, 2020, 02:28:12 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 21, 2020, 02:28:12 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/KHTlrlN.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 21, 2020, 02:29:55 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 21, 2020, 02:29:55 AM
(https://www.gstatic.com/tv/thumb/v22vodart/20352/p20352_v_v8_aa.jpg)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 21, 2020, 02:52:06 AM
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 21, 2020, 02:52:06 AM
This thread is finally heading in the right direction.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 21, 2020, 02:52:49 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 21, 2020, 02:52:49 AM
Talking about good movies?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 21, 2020, 03:02:28 AM
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 21, 2020, 03:02:28 AM
Reigniting the debate over the aliens' origins.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: kwisatz on Jun 21, 2020, 03:09:40 AM
Post by: kwisatz on Jun 21, 2020, 03:09:40 AM
What did David create in the "true" sense of the word anyway? I mean given what Prometheus showed the black goo already being capable of and the things it rather performs automatically? It created the hugger/burst cycle on its own (probably the main thing) with maybe/probably Shaw as a trigger. It created the deacon that physically comes pretty close to Davids Alien inklusive a mouth inside mouth mechanism to which the tongue-mouth seems rather derivative...
It turned Fifield into a killing machine therefore "anticipating" the behavioural ground model of our Alien. The vagina snake goes straight for the mouth like any facehugger would etc etc
Whats left for David? The Aliens tail? The eggs? But an egg is basically an urn plus trilobyte. That's not really "creating" in my book. The translucency of the dome? Maybe he sped up the process by making the Alien burst faster and smaller but thats just changing details.
One could maybe say he invented the human specificity of the Aliens life cycle (but again due to the interaction with Shaw its pretty much all there in Prometheus) but I'm not sure thats exactly the same thing one actually means when stating 'David created the Alien we know' (inklusive all the implications that go along with such a statement)
It turned Fifield into a killing machine therefore "anticipating" the behavioural ground model of our Alien. The vagina snake goes straight for the mouth like any facehugger would etc etc
Whats left for David? The Aliens tail? The eggs? But an egg is basically an urn plus trilobyte. That's not really "creating" in my book. The translucency of the dome? Maybe he sped up the process by making the Alien burst faster and smaller but thats just changing details.
One could maybe say he invented the human specificity of the Aliens life cycle (but again due to the interaction with Shaw its pretty much all there in Prometheus) but I'm not sure thats exactly the same thing one actually means when stating 'David created the Alien we know' (inklusive all the implications that go along with such a statement)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 21, 2020, 03:50:46 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 21, 2020, 03:50:46 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 21, 2020, 03:02:28 AMI doubt I reignited anything, the most recent post was yesterday. :P
Reigniting the debate over the aliens' origins.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 21, 2020, 03:52:46 AM
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 21, 2020, 03:52:46 AM
Yeah, but no one else does it like you do.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 21, 2020, 06:16:49 AM
Post by: SiL on Jun 21, 2020, 06:16:49 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jun 21, 2020, 02:23:11 AMThe narrative of Alien is that the derelict is ancient, based on Dallas' line and appearance. But there's room for that to be wrong -- Dallas is a layperson commenting on something he literally knows nothing about, and we don't know what the ship or Jockey would look like "fresh".
We don't even need another movie to "confirm" that. That's the crux of the argument. We already have the narrative of another film saying he's wrong, it came out in 1979.
Covenant comes along and says it's not ancient; it's actually relatively recent. And there's room for that to be wrong, too.
As we learn more, things become re-contextualised. But it won't change that the narrative of Alien is that it's ancient or that the narrative of Covenant is that David's the creator.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 21, 2020, 06:30:35 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 21, 2020, 06:30:35 AM
Well, Covenant doesn't say anything about the Jockey or Derelict since neither are in Covenant, but I acknowledge your overall point.
I think the "problem" is looking at the narratives of the individual movies (as you pointed out) versus looking at the broader franchise narrative, which is where things get muddled.
I think the "problem" is looking at the narratives of the individual movies (as you pointed out) versus looking at the broader franchise narrative, which is where things get muddled.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 21, 2020, 07:02:06 AM
Post by: SiL on Jun 21, 2020, 07:02:06 AM
Alien doesn't say anything specifically about the creation of the Alien either; we use inference. If the eggs are new then the pilot isn't old; if the pilot is old then the eggs aren't new.
That said, the Jockey being a flight suit actually opens up an interesting middle ground where they're both right -- the ship and suit are old, the eggs are new.
That said, the Jockey being a flight suit actually opens up an interesting middle ground where they're both right -- the ship and suit are old, the eggs are new.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 21, 2020, 07:20:08 AM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 21, 2020, 07:20:08 AM
Quote from: SiL on Jun 21, 2020, 07:02:06 AM
That said, the Jockey being a flight suit actually opens up an interesting middle ground where they're both right -- the ship and suit are old, the eggs are new.
Do you just discovered the "Schrödinger's cat" from the Alien universe? :o
(https://i.imgur.com/4C7fEES.gif)
https://youtu.be/IOYyCHGWJq4
https://youtu.be/IOYyCHGWJq4
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jun 21, 2020, 03:50:46 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 21, 2020, 03:02:28 AMI doubt I reignited anything, the most recent post was yesterday. :P
Reigniting the debate over the aliens' origins.
I bet the Matrix is simulating people who talk about Aliens' origins. And condemn them to an eternity of forum posts about Aliens' origins.
(https://i.imgur.com/2Q0MZJX.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 21, 2020, 08:10:17 AM
Post by: SiL on Jun 21, 2020, 08:10:17 AM
Schroedinger's Space Jockey, thank you very much.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 21, 2020, 11:15:10 PM
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 21, 2020, 11:15:10 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 06:29:17 AM
What part of what I've said is in bad faith?
Nothing. However I do wish you were more willing to speculate on the possibilities on alternatives instead of the slammed door perspective. Frankly, I've read your writing. You're someone who writes with the right voice for this stuff.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 04:27:40 AM
No, because the narrative of another film could be that David was wrong.
SiL... Okay. Okay. Even though that's, in spirit, what I was saying. My point, is that if Covenant was so air-tight about it, you wouldn't be able to write a story that follows it that said the situation was different. That's what I've been saying. It would go into the territory of a retcon or a complete rewrite.
If you wrote a movie that followed up Covenant with a reveal that the aliens have far older origins that are beyond fully understanding or knowing, or that they were the creation of the Jockeys... Whatever specific road you wanted to go in that direction, it would not actually contradict Covenant, it would simply be a continuation of certain threads and not a continuation of others.
David created the Planet 4 strain. That does not mean he created the LV-426 strain. The film doesn't actually show us that.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 18, 2020, 04:50:39 AM
There have been occasions when the somewhat toxic fans have achieved what they wanted, such as the Sonic live action or the Snyder Cut. I'm not sure if one can do something like that with Alien / Predator though.
I just want to be clear given the way these posts fell, are you calling me a toxic fan?
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 18, 2020, 04:50:39 AM
You don't even like to dream about the following:
It's canon David saying he is the creator.
It's not canon he's right.
That's literally all i'm saying. The film does not say the latter is 100% the case. It simply doesn't. Hell, i'm not even talking in terms of Canonicity. I'm saying there's that potential. That Covenant is not that locked down.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 09:05:27 PM
Guy shows his work in progress and presents something that looks like an unfinished Alien.
The movie did plenty. You just don't like it.
All it means is that David created the Alien we see in that film. It does not mean he created the original form of Alien we know.
And yes, I don't like it. You're absolutely right, and from the perspective of a fan who wants that direction stomped out American History X style I will use every desperate position I can find to stomp it out, because it's even worse than the Von Daniken-inspired s**t from Prometheus and AvP.
Quote from: David Weyland on Jun 19, 2020, 12:36:56 AM
If you entertain the thought that they went with the Xenos being some ancient species it would leave the origin question still hanging and unresolved;
As it should have been. Even exploring the Jockey does not mean we needed to know the origin of the Alien.
Quote from: David Weyland on Jun 19, 2020, 12:36:56 AM
if they came from a Xeno Prime planet you'd be asking how did that come about and evolve. It would be predictable and boring along some Darwinian line
Not really. A truly Alien planet. A biomechnoid nightmare world, would be nothing like anything we've ever seen before.
Quote from: David Weyland on Jun 19, 2020, 12:36:56 AM
If they were the creation of the Engineers or fabled Space Jockey, they would be nothing more than weapons
That's all they are as far as David is concerned, and thematically it makes more sense that the Engineers were the creators of the Alien, given everything we saw in Prometheus. That was basically their entire culture. Creation, destruction, creation again.
Quote from: David Weyland on Jun 19, 2020, 12:36:56 AM
At least with David creating them there is something interesting and darkly perverse of human created AI bringing it together to get revenge on his human masters.
Plus as its Humans watching the damn movie it triggers us to reflect on our own question of existence, our forms of creation and the consequences.
It didn't do that to me at all. You know what Covenant did to me?
"It's a shame they took such a complicated character as David. A character with many shades and layers, and turned him into a mustache twirling villain."
Dude committed genocide. I actually liked the David from Prometheus. His motivation for what he did made sense. He strove to be free and to explore. Did he do some gnarly shit? Yes, but in his own way he was not acting completely out of malice. Unlike in Covenant, where he is straight up a mass murdering psychopath.
Quote from: David Weyland on Jun 19, 2020, 12:36:56 AM
It's more of an intriguing head***k this way, keep going Riddles I say, just sort the dialogue and characterisation out please
A headf**k in the sense that it runs the risk of completely dismantling the long standing extended universe. This isn't like when Alien 3 came out and one comic series had to be reworked. Anything that involves aliens in the context of being ancient or from some other place are now defunct until a film comes along to make it clear otherwise.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: David Weyland on Jun 21, 2020, 11:52:45 PM
Post by: David Weyland on Jun 21, 2020, 11:52:45 PM
Then why bother making the prequels?
What would be the point other than to know where the Xenos came from?
Sure a Giger Hellraiser type planet would be great to look at but what else?
These are mainstream Hollywood movies not art house, I don't mean to patronise, just state so apologies but at least this way there's an element of honouring the bio mech of Giger through David & a deeper understanding of Ash's motives rather than the big bad company trope
What I think and hope will unfold is that the humans of WY ( See inquest in Aliens) have no clue of the Special order, the rerouting of the Nostromo or switch of Science officer. That is another slab of conceptual terror on terror of humanity handing control to technology.
The Films owe the wider EU nothing
Sure a lot of Artists and Writers invested a lot of love into their work but the films drive this franchise not the other way around
I'd be more compassionate and agree if that was the opposite but I think you should find some compersion here
Sure some elements of the prequels suck but at least the gravitas has returned after Resurrection and the AVPs.
What would be the point other than to know where the Xenos came from?
Sure a Giger Hellraiser type planet would be great to look at but what else?
These are mainstream Hollywood movies not art house, I don't mean to patronise, just state so apologies but at least this way there's an element of honouring the bio mech of Giger through David & a deeper understanding of Ash's motives rather than the big bad company trope
What I think and hope will unfold is that the humans of WY ( See inquest in Aliens) have no clue of the Special order, the rerouting of the Nostromo or switch of Science officer. That is another slab of conceptual terror on terror of humanity handing control to technology.
The Films owe the wider EU nothing
Sure a lot of Artists and Writers invested a lot of love into their work but the films drive this franchise not the other way around
I'd be more compassionate and agree if that was the opposite but I think you should find some compersion here
Sure some elements of the prequels suck but at least the gravitas has returned after Resurrection and the AVPs.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 22, 2020, 02:16:31 AM
Post by: SiL on Jun 22, 2020, 02:16:31 AM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 21, 2020, 11:15:10 PMMy point has always been that it doesn't need to be "air-tight" to be making the argument. You said the narrative of Covenant wasn't that David made the Alien; that it was just something a character says. I pointed out how this is disingenuous, and that even if it turns out to be wrong later the narrative very much is trying to establish David as the creator.
My point, is that if Covenant was so air-tight about it, you wouldn't be able to write a story that follows it that said the situation was different.
No film plot is truly "air-tight" and expecting that standard feels like setting unrealistic goals to justify a point.
QuoteDavid created the Planet 4 strain. That does not mean he created the LV-426 strain. The film doesn't actually show us that.No film establishes there are distinct "strains." That is, again, "baseless fanon."
If you want to discuss all of the myriad ways it could be done, I'd be happy to! I'm eagerly looking forward to the possibility of them walking out of it later.
But as long as the argument seems to be "Covenant doesn't say what it does because I don't like it" I'm going to keep pointing out how that's kind of crap.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 22, 2020, 02:59:11 AM
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 22, 2020, 02:59:11 AM
What are the best ideas for getting out of this mess? Didn't ADF already set it up?
Is there even a remote possibility that Ridley would change his mind if he got the chance?
Is there even a remote possibility that Ridley would change his mind if he got the chance?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 22, 2020, 03:11:50 AM
Post by: SiL on Jun 22, 2020, 03:11:50 AM
The simplest is some variation of "David was working from a 'recipe' the Engineers already made eons ago". His rotting robot brain might have forgotten he read the instructions and thought he was doing something unique, when he was actually regurgitating information.
Or he lied, but lying about that really doesn't fit his character.
Or he lied, but lying about that really doesn't fit his character.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nightmare Asylum on Jun 22, 2020, 03:19:49 AM
Post by: Nightmare Asylum on Jun 22, 2020, 03:19:49 AM
ADF's line felt like a random fanfiction aside in a book that was already pretty poorly written. I've never read anything Forster has ever done before, and the Covenant novelization didn't exactly inspire any confidence in his work.
If they ever retcon what Covenant did with David as the creator, then the only way to really do it well, in my opinion, would be to use that revelation as a tool to further develop the character. The detail about the Alien being ancient is all fine and whatever, but if that revelation is handled in a way that doesn't directly and fundamentally shift David as a character, then it will feel just as half-assed as the ADF line to me.
Personally, though, I'm totally ok with things as they are now. The "Alien" substance, the Pathogen, is still utterly alien and unknown. It is ancient, we have no idea if it was created or found by the Engineers, and it opens up a million possibilities for horrific offshoots among the stars. Meanwhile, the Aliens that we saw in the original films seemed perfectly, deliberately catered to the human body. David, as a creator of the capital-A Alien, using raw materials that predate him by (at minimum) two thousand years, works for me. It doesn't lessen how I feel about the original films in any way, and it enhances David as a character coming off of where we last saw him in Prometheus.
Even if he wasn't working off of a blueprint, all of the forms that we saw pre-dating David's perfect organism are already very evocative of what he would go on to design; the Trilobite's birth and its subsequent impregnation of the Engineer, the Hammerpede's acidic blood, the general form of the Deacon, etc. So there are definitely some elements baked into the Pathogen that David was refining while concocting his monster.
If they ever retcon what Covenant did with David as the creator, then the only way to really do it well, in my opinion, would be to use that revelation as a tool to further develop the character. The detail about the Alien being ancient is all fine and whatever, but if that revelation is handled in a way that doesn't directly and fundamentally shift David as a character, then it will feel just as half-assed as the ADF line to me.
Personally, though, I'm totally ok with things as they are now. The "Alien" substance, the Pathogen, is still utterly alien and unknown. It is ancient, we have no idea if it was created or found by the Engineers, and it opens up a million possibilities for horrific offshoots among the stars. Meanwhile, the Aliens that we saw in the original films seemed perfectly, deliberately catered to the human body. David, as a creator of the capital-A Alien, using raw materials that predate him by (at minimum) two thousand years, works for me. It doesn't lessen how I feel about the original films in any way, and it enhances David as a character coming off of where we last saw him in Prometheus.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 22, 2020, 03:11:50 AM
The simplest is some variation of "David was working from a 'recipe' the Engineers already made eons ago". His rotting robot brain might have forgotten he read the instructions and thought he was doing something unique, when he was actually regurgitating information.
Or he lied, but lying about that really doesn't fit his character.
Even if he wasn't working off of a blueprint, all of the forms that we saw pre-dating David's perfect organism are already very evocative of what he would go on to design; the Trilobite's birth and its subsequent impregnation of the Engineer, the Hammerpede's acidic blood, the general form of the Deacon, etc. So there are definitely some elements baked into the Pathogen that David was refining while concocting his monster.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 22, 2020, 03:21:14 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 22, 2020, 03:21:14 AM
He's not lying if he doesn't know he's wrong. Shelley, Byron, etc.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 22, 2020, 03:25:57 AM
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 22, 2020, 03:25:57 AM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jun 22, 2020, 03:19:49 AMIf they ever retcon what Covenant did with David as the creator, then the only way to really do it well, in my opinion, would be to use that revelation as a tool to further develop the character.
Meh, I'm far less invested in David's character than I am in the lore of the alien itself. In fact, David could be totally absent from any future movies for all I care.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: SiL on Jun 22, 2020, 03:40:15 AM
Post by: SiL on Jun 22, 2020, 03:40:15 AM
Since the prequels have him so front and centre I agree with NA, it should be used to twist the character. It would be like Hicks and Newt dying in A3 and Ripley not giving a flying f**k.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 22, 2020, 03:49:25 AM
Post by: Local Trouble on Jun 22, 2020, 03:49:25 AM
All I'm saying is I have no attachment to the character. I would no more miss David than I missed Shaw in Covenant.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 04:00:47 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 04:00:47 AM
But who would do the fingering?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Nightmare Asylum on Jun 22, 2020, 04:14:25 AM
Post by: Nightmare Asylum on Jun 22, 2020, 04:14:25 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 04:00:47 AM
But who would do the fingering?
David might need some help with that himself, these days.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Jun 22, 2020, 05:30:08 AM
Post by: SiL on Jun 22, 2020, 05:30:08 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 22, 2020, 03:49:25 AMI only liked him in Prometheus but to be honest I'd feel like even more of my time was wasted if he just disappeared. Give us some kind of pay off at least.
All I'm saying is I have no attachment to the character. I would no more miss David than I missed Shaw in Covenant.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 10:52:47 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 10:52:47 AM
Quote from: SiL on Jun 22, 2020, 05:30:08 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Jun 22, 2020, 03:49:25 AMI only liked him in Prometheus but to be honest I'd feel like even more of my time was wasted if he just disappeared. Give us some kind of pay off at least.
All I'm saying is I have no attachment to the character. I would no more miss David than I missed Shaw in Covenant.
I was thinking for a minute if there any third films out there as examples that improved upon the mixed feelings towards what came before. I know second installments that has done it... Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn, Mad Max 2, etc. etc. Just racking my brain trying to come up with a good example to apply here.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 22, 2020, 03:22:33 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 22, 2020, 03:22:33 PM
When a movie series gets "mixed feelings" twice, they tend to not get a third shot.
That said, 'Transformers: Dark of the Moon' was better than Revenge of the Fallen, but that was a low bar to clear.
That said, 'Transformers: Dark of the Moon' was better than Revenge of the Fallen, but that was a low bar to clear.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 03:32:52 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 03:32:52 PM
Of couse, as long as the box office receipts are good they will.
The best examples I can think of is Thor Ragnarok, and Star Wars Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith.. but the latter might just be me... being a big fan of RotS and all.
The best examples I can think of is Thor Ragnarok, and Star Wars Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith.. but the latter might just be me... being a big fan of RotS and all.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 22, 2020, 05:42:45 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Jun 22, 2020, 05:42:45 PM
Ragnarok is a good example, I can't believe I forgot about that one.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 22, 2020, 08:19:38 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 22, 2020, 08:19:38 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 03:32:52 PM
Of couse, as long as the box office receipts are good they will.
The best examples I can think of is Thor Ragnarok, and Star Wars Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith.. but the latter might just be me... being a big fan of RotS and all.
Indeed Ragnarok is the best example so far. However, RotS is objectively the best Star Wars prequel. :laugh:
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 22, 2020, 08:22:47 PM
Post by: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 22, 2020, 08:22:47 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jun 21, 2020, 06:30:35 AM
I think the "problem" is looking at the narratives of the individual movies (as you pointed out) versus looking at the broader franchise narrative, which is where things get muddled.
That's how I see it. You could easily split Prometheus into 4 "episodes" and have it essentially be season 1 and Covenant as season 2 of an Alien prequel series, only it came out in theatres as opposed to Netflix or something.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 08:58:59 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 08:58:59 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 22, 2020, 08:19:38 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 03:32:52 PM
Of couse, as long as the box office receipts are good they will.
The best examples I can think of is Thor Ragnarok, and Star Wars Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith.. but the latter might just be me... being a big fan of RotS and all.
Indeed Ragnarok is the best example so far. However, RotS is objectively the best Star Wars prequel. :laugh:
Ah, we have concensus on RotS? Cool. :D I was under the impression many thought those prequels were all crap.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 22, 2020, 09:06:19 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 22, 2020, 09:06:19 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 08:58:59 PMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 22, 2020, 08:19:38 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 03:32:52 PM
Of couse, as long as the box office receipts are good they will.
The best examples I can think of is Thor Ragnarok, and Star Wars Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith.. but the latter might just be me... being a big fan of RotS and all.
Indeed Ragnarok is the best example so far. However, RotS is objectively the best Star Wars prequel. :laugh:
Ah, we have concensus on RotS? Cool. :D I was under the impression many thought those prequels were all crap.
Oh, I just say that RotS is the less crappy of the lote. But we can agree on at least one thing: there is progress from less to more. :laugh:
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 09:18:50 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 09:18:50 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 22, 2020, 09:06:19 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 08:58:59 PMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 22, 2020, 08:19:38 PMQuote from: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 03:32:52 PM
Of couse, as long as the box office receipts are good they will.
The best examples I can think of is Thor Ragnarok, and Star Wars Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith.. but the latter might just be me... being a big fan of RotS and all.
Indeed Ragnarok is the best example so far. However, RotS is objectively the best Star Wars prequel. :laugh:
Ah, we have concensus on RotS? Cool. :D I was under the impression many thought those prequels were all crap.
Oh, I just say that RotS is the less crappy of the lote. But we can agree on at least one thing: there is progress from less to more. :laugh:
Ah. :laugh:
Well then I'd hope if we were ever to be graced with a third Alien prequel, they'd achieve more than "less crappy"!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 22, 2020, 09:25:06 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 22, 2020, 09:25:06 PM
Indeed. Let's hope we're going to get "Alien: Ragnarök" one day. :laugh:
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 09:32:54 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Jun 22, 2020, 09:32:54 PM
To achieve Alien Ragnarok we need...
Spoiler
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/bMSnzSLLWDIBNfmOHL/giphy-downsized-medium.gif)
[close]
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 22, 2020, 09:41:15 PM
Post by: OpenMaw on Jun 22, 2020, 09:41:15 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jun 22, 2020, 02:16:31 AM
My point has always been that it doesn't need to be "air-tight" to be making the argument. You said the narrative of Covenant wasn't that David made the Alien; that it was just something a character says. I pointed out how this is disingenuous, and that even if it turns out to be wrong later the narrative very much is trying to establish David as the creator.
I mean, you got me. I am being a little disingenuous. Not completely, but yes. A little. I resent what has been done to the series.
If Covenant was smart different instead of dumb-different I could at least respect it on that level. I could probably even bring myself to enjoy it, but the way the film does things is just bad.
No, no, I know you don't trust me and I clearly don't give a crap about your people, but go ahead... Stick your face innit. It's safe.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 22, 2020, 02:16:31 AM
No film plot is truly "air-tight" and expecting that standard feels like setting unrealistic goals to justify a point.
I mean, if Covenant could be blown out the g**d*** airlock, i'd be a happy man.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 22, 2020, 02:16:31 AM
No film establishes there are distinct "strains." That is, again, "baseless fanon."
No, you're right, they don't establish that, but did Scott and the effects team not say David's so called perfect organism wasn't even done in Covenant? That they purposely left out the mechanoid element?
You wouldn't agree that all the bits and pieces we saw in Prometheus were not strains of more or less the same "thing" or at least pointing towards an end game of some sort? As was pointed out, all the pieces of the Alien were present within Prometheus already. How far would you have to go from there, really?
Quote from: SiL on Jun 22, 2020, 02:16:31 AM
If you want to discuss all of the myriad ways it could be done, I'd be happy to! I'm eagerly looking forward to the possibility of them walking out of it later.
For all we know all we will ever have after Covenant is speculation and fandom. It's entirely possible this is the end of the theatrical rode, outside of a reboot or a remake or something.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 22, 2020, 09:50:31 PM
Post by: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 22, 2020, 09:50:31 PM
I reconcile the two somewhat contradictory creation stories with the fact that David didn't create/engineer it from scratch, he essentially "accelerated" the evolution of the Neomorphs, which were themselves accelerated life-forms native to Planet 4, which is an Alien planet billions upon billions of miles from Earth. So, there ya go!
And, to the topic at hand, if Covenant does confirm AvP a separate universe from Alien, even better. We can have a proper Aliens vs. Predator reboot one day that introduces a new iteration of the Xenomorph that has nothing to do with David-8 whatsoever, and can ignore any and all Alien films other than the first two at its leisure. :)
And, to the topic at hand, if Covenant does confirm AvP a separate universe from Alien, even better. We can have a proper Aliens vs. Predator reboot one day that introduces a new iteration of the Xenomorph that has nothing to do with David-8 whatsoever, and can ignore any and all Alien films other than the first two at its leisure. :)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 22, 2020, 10:43:59 PM
Post by: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 22, 2020, 10:43:59 PM
Quote from: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 22, 2020, 09:50:31 PM
I reconcile the two somewhat contradictory creation stories with the fact that David didn't create/engineer it from scratch, he essentially "accelerated" the evolution of the Neomorphs, which were themselves accelerated life-forms native to Planet 4, which is an Alien planet billions upon billions of miles from Earth. So, there ya go!
David credits the black pathogen as a sort of designer, until he decides to experiment for himself in order to create his own organism:
Quote from: DavidThe pathogen took so many forms... and was extremely mutable. Fiendishly invented, in fact. The original liquid atomized to... particles when exposed to the air. Ten years on, all the remains... outside of the original virus... Are these gorgeous beasts. Patience is everything. From the eggs came these parasites... Shock troops of the genetic assault. Waiting for a host entering the host... rewriting the DNA... Ultimately... producing... well, these enviable unions. My beautiful bestiary. Soon enough I began a bit of genetic experimentation of my own.
There is nothing in Prometheus that makes me believe that Engineers invented the Alien before David. The bas relief of the mural is more like Neomorph / Deacon type creatures.
That said, and until the canon recontextualizes the above, I'd say that the Engineers created Xenomorph-like beings, but not the capital Alien.
Edit: I subscribe to the fanon that Planet 4 is the work of this boy here. I don't know, I just find it cool. :laugh:
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 23, 2020, 01:25:17 AM
Post by: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 23, 2020, 01:25:17 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 22, 2020, 10:43:59 PM
David credits the black pathogen as a sort of designer, until he decides to experiment for himself in order to create his own organism:
There is nothing in Prometheus that makes me believe that Engineers invented the Alien before David. The low relief of the mural is more like Neomorph / Deacon type creatures.
I'd say, the accelerant was the Alien, and the Xenomorph is the "David" carved out of the marble of the Alien (accelerant). Although the raw data the film presents is that he carved the Alien out of the accelerant, but when looking at the prequel films as a single overarching narrative, the "Alien" is really a multi-millennium process, resulting in the Xenomorph that David was finalizing/adding onto, (perhaps the Engineers themselves were as well, they didn't seem to fully "understand what they were dealing with" ;) ).
EDIT: Ergo, the "Alien" doesn't have any one true point of origin, making it - for all intents and purposes - the ultimate Alien.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: [cancerblack] on Jun 25, 2020, 10:35:41 AM
Post by: [cancerblack] on Jun 25, 2020, 10:35:41 AM
Quote from: D. Compton Ambrose on Jun 23, 2020, 01:25:17 AM
I'd say, the accelerant was the Alien
Agreed, been my thinking since Prommy.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: David Weyland on Jun 25, 2020, 01:01:13 PM
Post by: David Weyland on Jun 25, 2020, 01:01:13 PM
I've said it a few times but I've come to view the mural as a Portend or form of mirror. The big head in the centre of the urn room (Too) subtly adds to this thought of reflection/self. If you recall, it is when David touches the black goo in the ampules and remarks it as being organic that at that very moment, the paintings in the ceilings change (Plus isn't it all too incidental that the sky darkens and the storm kicks in.)
Elizabeth Shaw notices the ceiling change and exclaims that they must of somehow contaminated the room. I hypothesise that what we see in the mural is a reflection or portend of the result, Deacon or not of the outcome of those in the mural room would mutate into in conjunction with the black goo...and the worms (Symbolic of the actor of physical organic decomposition) ? Or maybe a it was humble part of an Engineer security system perhaps? Or maybe the contaminant that caused all hell to break loose with a Hammerpede overload when the Engineers were messing with the black goo 2000 years ago
Elizabeth Shaw notices the ceiling change and exclaims that they must of somehow contaminated the room. I hypothesise that what we see in the mural is a reflection or portend of the result, Deacon or not of the outcome of those in the mural room would mutate into in conjunction with the black goo...and the worms (Symbolic of the actor of physical organic decomposition) ? Or maybe a it was humble part of an Engineer security system perhaps? Or maybe the contaminant that caused all hell to break loose with a Hammerpede overload when the Engineers were messing with the black goo 2000 years ago
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 14, 2020, 01:31:29 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 14, 2020, 01:31:29 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 02:55:47 AMQuote from: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 02:28:21 AM
Sure, later, maybe, but for now he's not and trying to argue Covenant says otherwise is wishful thinking.
I didn't say that. I said that Covenant does not explicitly state it. David does, but David makes mistakes. He's also a compulsive liar. Whether he did or did not claim other things as his own does not matter. It served his means to say that the pathogen was an accident because it was at least enough to leave the shell shocked survivors somewhat at ease with their new "friend."
I can see very easily how someone can take what Covenant portrays of David and simply expand it.
Again, he misappropriates the quote. He could just as easily misappropriate things that he discovered in the city that lead him to the creation of the Alien which is exactly what the Engineers had done before him in the thousands of years they had the pathogen at their disposal.
To say nothing of the fact that Prometheus makes it very clear that the Engineers were actively experimenting with and even worshiped/revering a creature very similar to the Alien.
You're going to tell me that the Engineers in their eons of having this stuff, never came up with this particular recipe, but David, with some sticks and jars and medieval level tech, was able to do it in a decade?
It's an unhealthy creative place to take the series. It has literally boxed the series in.Quote from: SM on Jun 18, 2020, 02:20:58 AM
If they wanted to show David was lying about it or mistaken - they would've made the point it in the film. Like they revealed that he was lying about Shaw.
They do stress the point that he's a liar in the scene we're talking about.
Go ahead, stick your face in there, Oram. My creation is perfectly safe.
Even with that, he calls it perfect... When the very people who made the movie have said the alien wasn't actually final yet, and the intention was to introduce the biomechanics into it next time out. So it isn't perfect yet if it isn't done cooking, no?
My point is this does not have to be set in stone. At all. David is painted as misquoting, misremembering, deceiving, outright lying, and carrying a rather large ego. There is no reason that the next film has to be bound by what David says, because David is both fallible and a liar. Self deception is a form of lying. Saying that it's explicit and set in stone when the film makes it perfectly clear you can't trust the g*ddamned robot at all says to me we can ignore it for the sake of the future of the series. It's a stupid plot point, and it should be ignored at the earliest opportunity.
To say that the film is obvious in the contrary, when it's really not. David can say whatever he wants. He can show Oram a million pretty pictures and bisected mutations caused by the pathogen. He can even make his own eggs. That does not mean he was actually the first to do it. No matter how many times you want to say that it does, it doesn't. What it says is that he says that he is.
The rest of the Alien series does not need to be shackled with such a hackneyed and poor revelation. It can do way, way, way better and for decades the prevailing and assumed backstory that the aliens came from far out somewhere else and from a far off time was far more compelling and far more rich with story potential.
What's weird is in the end you agreed with me, SiL. "Later, maybe." Yeah, the only way that works if there is the wiggle room that i'm talking about.
AS far as we know there is no official later to come out of this series. Covenant may be the last Alien film we ever see, short of a remake or a reboot. So arguing the point that Covenant does not creatively box in the entire franchise, I think, is the healthier direction to take the discussion than to say NOPE, David did it, can't find a way around that at all. He is the creator of the Alien. Can't take it any other way.
Do you see what i'm saying? I'm not questioning the INTENTION of Covenant. Which is why we're butting heads here. I'm speaking to possibilities, potential, theorizing on ways to get out of the cul de sac Covenant puts the series into.
This is an excellent point! The film is literally designed to call into question everything about David from start to finish. He's a continually and blatantly deceitful, forgetful, delusional, and suspicious character. Couple that with the fact that the film doesn't (and logically cannot) actually establish David as the ultimate creator of the very first Xenomorph and certainly never connects to any other Alien or Predator film (much less to the original 1979 film which itself arguably established the Derelict and its Xenomorph cargo as being thousands of years old as further confirmed by Prometheus) AND that the idea of David as creator was blatantly debunked by the official novelization which properly presents David as a replicator of the Xenomorph design and having produced his own variant of Xenomorph intended to rival the Engineers (along with various other arguments). I also must bring to attention that Covenant wasn't really designed to feature Xenomorphs at all, but the Xenomorph was just shoved in there due to criticism from the previous film and wasn't even intended as any Xenomorph origin story to begin with. By the way, it's not like the larger portion of the fanbase actually appreciated the concept of David as creator so it's pointless promoting a failed and rejected idea such as this, an idea which Fox seems to have distanced themselves from and refused to confirm. Even Ridley Scott seems to have low-key changed his mind and taken off in another direction. This is just factually true.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 03:48:43 AMQuote from: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 02:55:47 AMQuote from: SiL on Jun 18, 2020, 02:28:21 AM
Sure, later, maybe, but for now he's not and trying to argue Covenant says otherwise is wishful thinking.
I didn't say that.Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 18, 2020, 02:10:39 AM
That's his word, not the narrative word.
If the narrative of the film was that David is lying about making the Alien, the narrative of the film would have said that he was lying about making the Alien. It very much does not.
The narrative doesn't have to specifically tell you that David didn't make the Alien (or that he did or didn't do anything else), it merely has to present David as overall deceitful and unreliable throughout the film to the point that you may question everything relating to David, which it also does to an extreme degree. However, it seems confirmed by the novelization that David did create (or rather replicate) the Xenomorph in the film, except that it was based on an already existing Xenomorph blueprint apparently created by the Engineers.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jun 21, 2020, 06:30:35 AM
Well, Covenant doesn't say anything about the Jockey or Derelict since neither are in Covenant, but I acknowledge your overall point.
I think the "problem" is looking at the narratives of the individual movies (as you pointed out) versus looking at the broader franchise narrative, which is where things get muddled.
Absolutely agree with that observation!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 14, 2020, 07:11:44 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 14, 2020, 07:11:44 PM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 14, 2020, 03:18:59 PM
Oh God, not again...
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=64387.0
Yeah... I'm sorry, but there's no way that can be taken seriously! These are just the personal thoughts of one Andrew Gaska, and had they actually represented anything truly official then that ought to have been represented in Fox's products for the past decade (and not been contradicted and suddenly revealed on a personal blog much later on). But it hasn't. It's quite telling when he gets really surprised that Fox actually had The Predator connect the Alien, Predator, and AVP brands together even though according to him that could never have happened, and yet it did (and this being just one example). Come on now. Show some common sense for once.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Oct 14, 2020, 08:35:07 PM
Post by: Corporal Hicks on Oct 14, 2020, 08:35:07 PM
Quote from: TurokSweCome on now. Show some common sense for once.
Let's not be throwing around thinly veiled insults at someone who disagrees with you.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 15, 2020, 11:23:19 AM
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 15, 2020, 11:23:19 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Oct 14, 2020, 08:35:07 PMQuote from: TurokSweCome on now. Show some common sense for once.
Let's not be throwing around thinly veiled insults at someone who disagrees with you.
My apologies.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 04:47:46 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 04:47:46 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Oct 14, 2020, 07:11:44 PMLike his blog post says, things are canon until they're not.Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 14, 2020, 03:18:59 PM
Oh God, not again...
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=64387.0
Yeah... I'm sorry, but there's no way that can be taken seriously! These are just the personal thoughts of one Andrew Gaska, and had they actually represented anything truly official then that ought to have been represented in Fox's products for the past decade (and not been contradicted and suddenly revealed on a personal blog much later on). But it hasn't. It's quite telling when he gets really surprised that Fox actually had The Predator connect the Alien, Predator, and AVP brands together even though according to him that could never have happened, and yet it did (and this being just one example). Come on now. Show some common sense for once.
Edit-- Checked out your blog's recent post, got some inaccuracies in it. I guess if you want to talk about it there's a dedicated thread for the topic.
That said, your blog post is a masterclass in why "personal canon" reigns supreme. ;)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 08:53:32 AM
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 08:53:32 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 04:47:46 AMQuote from: TurokSwe on Oct 14, 2020, 07:11:44 PMLike his blog post says, things are canon until they're not.Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 14, 2020, 03:18:59 PM
Oh God, not again...
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=64387.0
Yeah... I'm sorry, but there's no way that can be taken seriously! These are just the personal thoughts of one Andrew Gaska, and had they actually represented anything truly official then that ought to have been represented in Fox's products for the past decade (and not been contradicted and suddenly revealed on a personal blog much later on). But it hasn't. It's quite telling when he gets really surprised that Fox actually had The Predator connect the Alien, Predator, and AVP brands together even though according to him that could never have happened, and yet it did (and this being just one example). Come on now. Show some common sense for once.
Edit-- Checked out your blog's recent post, got some inaccuracies in it. I guess if you want to talk about it there's a dedicated thread for the topic.
That said, your blog post is a masterclass in why "personal canon" reigns supreme. ;)
I'm not entirely sure what you mean, so feel free to elaborate. Not a fan of personal canons by the way, which is why I'm trying to look at things more objectively on my site while at the same time urging Fox to remain consistent and comprehensive. If you notice any mistakes or issues then please let me know, I would love to improve it as much as I possibly can whenever I have the time.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 11:19:15 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 11:19:15 AM
When the consultants working for Fox say "this is what Fox says, irrespective of what they may appear to do to an outside observer", they're stating the "official canon". By disagreeing with it, no matter how many words you write on the subject, no matter how "thorough" or "logical" or "objective" you think you're being, by definition you're using your own personal canon.
There's nothing wrong with this, in fact I very strongly encourage it. :)
There's nothing wrong with this, in fact I very strongly encourage it. :)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 11:57:04 AM
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 11:57:04 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 11:19:15 AM
When the consultants working for Fox say "this is what Fox says, irrespective of what they may appear to do to an outside observer", they're stating the "official canon". By disagreeing with it, no matter how many words you write on the subject, no matter how "thorough" or "logical" or "objective" you think you're being, by definition you're using your own personal canon.
There's nothing wrong with this, in fact I very strongly encourage it. :)
I'm afraid I must disagree on that point though. I'm not merely disagreeing with their assertions, but I'm criticizing and questioning it while providing justifiable grounds for doing so, not only from a logical perspective but also from an evidential perspective.
I'm not exactly resorting to using my own "personal canon" because (1) disagreeing with questionable assertions doesn't equal me settling with my "personal canon" and (2) I'm only resorting to the official products Fox has actually offered me as a consumer (which I as a consumer naturally take as canon, with some possible exceptions), while also acknowledging the assertions of those working with/for Fox who remain consistent with their products and being justifiably suspicious of those who do not.
Bottom line, settling with their officially endorsed products I can hardly refer to as "personal canon" in any meaningful way, especially not in a manner that you could distinguish this from official canon without expressing your personal opinion or preference.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 16, 2020, 01:58:44 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 16, 2020, 01:58:44 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 11:19:15 AM
When the consultants working for Fox say "this is what Fox says, irrespective of what they may appear to do to an outside observer", they're stating the "official canon". By disagreeing with it, no matter how many words you write on the subject, no matter how "thorough" or "logical" or "objective" you think you're being, by definition you're using your own personal canon.
It's not that simple. They are three separate licenses with three available revenue streams. There is nothing different Fox could say. You need to partition them or you're affecting your revenue. So if you only enter a license agreement with one license, you can only play within that one license. The line needs to be drawn within that single license.
Yet, when we have larger stories that involves it all, ala Fire and Stone, and you include portions of that group story into that individual license partitioned canon, it's fair to say it all happened. A consultant just can't go there via official internal documents when working within a individual license.
The rules of indvidual license canon versus universe canon. The conversation needs to change. :)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 11:57:04 AMThat doesn't change what I said - "official canon" is set by the license-holders, it doesn't need to make sense or have logic or reason behind it. If you choose to follow a "canon" different from that, by definition you're following your own personal canon, no matter what your reasons are for doing so.
I'm afraid I must disagree on that point though. I'm not merely disagreeing with their assertions, but I'm criticizing and questioning it while providing justifiable grounds for doing so, not only from a logical perspective but also from an evidential perspective.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 11:57:04 AMI'm not exactly resorting to using my own "personal canon" because (1) disagreeing with questionable assertions doesn't equal me settling with my "personal canon" and (2) I'm only resorting to the official products Fox has actually offered me as a consumer (which I as a consumer naturally take as canon, with some possible exceptions), while also acknowledging the assertions of those working with/for Fox who remain consistent with their products and being justifiably suspicious of those who do not.Officially endorsed products =/= "official canon" policy. I talked with Andrew Gaska about this - internally, no matter what the label on the front of the packaging says, if it's an Alien product that has a Predator in it or directly references Predators, it's considered an AvP product from a licensing and narrative point of view and is part of the AvP "universe". At least, that's the directive he says he was given when he was hired.
Bottom line, settling with their officially endorsed products I can hardly refer to as "personal canon" in any meaningful way, especially not in a manner that you could distinguish this from official canon without expressing your personal opinion or preference.
Again, having your own personal canon is cool and good, and I encourage it. :)
Also your blog post says AvP has existed for 40 years, and that the Alien and Predator franchises have been linked since their inception - this is false, AvP didn't exist until Dark Horse Comics created the concept in 1989.
Your blog post is right on one thing - FOX has actively supported a shared universe, and did so pretty much until the early stages of 'The Predator' being in production, and then they changed course.
I'm not saying FOX has always considered Alien and Predator to be separate. I'm saying what FOX's stance currently is, and as the license holders they can change their minds at the drop of a hat. They could decide tomorrow that 'Alien' and 'Predator' are no longer canon and that would be the "official" position, regardless of whether it makes sense from a business or narrative standpoint.
For the record, I largely agree with the logic and reasoning in your blog post, and it demonstrates why "official canon" is not a useful concept for the end-user (see also: the articles linked in my signature) - when there's a mountain of evidence to suggest the two franchises are linked but the actual official stance from FOX is "nope, they're separate", then the official stance is meaningless. :P
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 16, 2020, 01:58:44 PMCanon and continuity are not synonyms.
Yet, when we have larger stories that involves it all, ala Fire and Stone, and you include portions of that group story into that individual license partitioned canon, it's fair to say it all happened.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 16, 2020, 01:58:44 PMA consultant just can't go there via official internal documents when working within a individual license.What do you mean?
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 16, 2020, 01:58:44 PMThe rules of indvidual license canon versus universe canon. The conversation needs to change. :)According to Gaska, licensing and universe canon are the same thing from FOX's perspective (this may change under Disney).
I personally think this is stupid, but I also don't own Alien and Predator. :P
Maybe things will change under Disney.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 04:00:28 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 04:00:28 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
That doesn't change what I said - "official canon" is set by the license-holders, it doesn't need to make sense or have logic or reason behind it. If you choose to follow a "canon" different from that, by definition you're following your own personal canon, no matter what your reasons are for doing so.
I fully agree with that, but this doesn't change what I said either, as I am following the official canon they've established through their products and with each and every new product they decide to add, and there are no canonical boundaries set for their products.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
Officially endorsed products =/= "official canon" policy. I talked with Andrew Gaska about this - internally, no matter what the label on the front of the packaging says, if it's an Alien product that has a Predator in it or directly references Predators, it's considered an AvP product from a licensing and narrative point of view and is part of the AvP "universe". At least, that's the directive he says he was given when he was hired.
But that's not official canon, that's a category mistake, and a licensing issue.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
Again, having your own personal canon is cool and good, and I encourage it. :)
It's still not my personal canon, and I don't support personal canons, but it's objectively the official canon that Fox has published and they have yet to officially retract any of it (not that I think they ever would).
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
Also your blog post says AvP has existed for 40 years, and that the Alien and Predator franchises have been linked since their inception - this is false, AvP didn't exist until Dark Horse Comics created the concept in 1989.
I don't recall ever stating that in the article. I know I stated that the Alien and Predator franchises as a whole have existed for four decades, not that AVP as a brand has, and that once the first three classic films (which established the foundation) were done, the shared universe began taking shape.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
Your blog post is right on one thing - FOX has actively supported a shared universe, and did so pretty much until the early stages of 'The Predator' being in production, and then they changed course.
What do you mean it "changed course"? It seems to me they have been of the same mind both before and after.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
I'm not saying FOX has always considered Alien and Predator to be separate. I'm saying what FOX's stance currently is, and as the license holders they can change their minds at the drop of a hat. They could decide tomorrow that 'Alien' and 'Predator' are no longer canon and that would be the "official" position, regardless of whether it makes sense from a business or narrative standpoint.
I agree that they could do it, but they haven't actually done it.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
For the record, I largely agree with the logic and reasoning in your blog post, and it demonstrates why "official canon" is not a useful concept for the end-user (see also: the articles linked in my signature) - when there's a mountain of evidence to suggest the two franchises are linked but the actual official stance from FOX is "nope, they're separate", then the official stance is meaningless. :P
The actual issue here seems to be one of licensing issues rather than official canon and so there's just a lot of confusing miscategorizing going on here.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
Canon and continuity are not synonyms.
They're not synonyms but they are connected.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
What do you mean?
I think he's trying to get across that consultants can get things wrong and misinterpret and misunderstand and miscategorize things, which I for one would certainly agree with.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
According to Gaska, licensing and universe canon are the same thing from FOX's perspective (this may change under Disney)
Not only do I take such claims with a pinch of salt, but I would also strongly question them because it makes no logical sense (licenses=/=official canon), and it seems more like there is some misinterpretation, misunderstanding, and miscategorizing going on here.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 04:36:10 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 04:36:10 PM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 04:00:28 PMYes there is, you simply weren't privy to it because you don't work for FOX. Those that do are privy to it and have shared it - you simply don't like what they have to say.Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
That doesn't change what I said - "official canon" is set by the license-holders, it doesn't need to make sense or have logic or reason behind it. If you choose to follow a "canon" different from that, by definition you're following your own personal canon, no matter what your reasons are for doing so.
I fully agree with that, but this doesn't change what I said either, as I am following the official canon they've established through their products and with each and every new product they decide to add, and there are no canonical boundaries set for their products.
Again, "official canon" is not the same thing as "the products they choose to release", as little sense as that may make.
Like I said, this is an example of why "official canon" is not a useful concept for the end-user; it's an internal framework for those creating new content, but it's not meant for public consumption.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 04:00:28 PMAccording to Gaska there is no mistake, it's what's been conveyed to him in no uncertain terms.Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
Officially endorsed products =/= "official canon" policy. I talked with Andrew Gaska about this - internally, no matter what the label on the front of the packaging says, if it's an Alien product that has a Predator in it or directly references Predators, it's considered an AvP product from a licensing and narrative point of view and is part of the AvP "universe". At least, that's the directive he says he was given when he was hired.
But that's not official canon, that's a category mistake, and a licensing issue.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 04:00:28 PMAgain, you simply aren't privy to internal documents or "official" stances.Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
Again, having your own personal canon is cool and good, and I encourage it. :)
It's still not my personal canon, and I don't support personal canons, but it's objectively the official canon that Fox has published and they have yet to officially retract any of it (not that I think they ever would).
Quote from: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 04:00:28 PMAccording to Gaska, originally FOX was all on board with a shared universe concept until Covenant and The Predator entered production and both Ridley Scott and Shane Black internally voiced their dislike of the concept, and then 'Justice League' massively underperformed and FOX felt that "shared universes" were a bad idea and opted to change course. 'The Predator' went through massive production problems leading to the wackiness with the Ripley and Newt endings and the facehugger/Weyland-Yutani breathing mask and all of that, and Shane Black made his public statements about AvP as a way to draw in support from fans because he knew his movie had major problems, but behind the scenes FOX's stance remained unchanged. Gaska said he was specifically hired to write FOX's "Predator bible" because they were making things separate. He likened Shane Black's comments to Ridley Scott saying 'Blade Runner' is part of the Alien universe.Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
Your blog post is right on one thing - FOX has actively supported a shared universe, and did so pretty much until the early stages of 'The Predator' being in production, and then they changed course.
What do you mean it "changed course"? It seems to me they have been of the same mind both before and after.
Now for the record I think using Justice League as evidence that shared universes are a bad idea is a bizarre line of thinking given the colossal success of the MCU, but I don't work for FOX. :P
Quote from: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 04:00:28 PMYes they did, you simply weren't privy to it. :)Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
I'm not saying FOX has always considered Alien and Predator to be separate. I'm saying what FOX's stance currently is, and as the license holders they can change their minds at the drop of a hat. They could decide tomorrow that 'Alien' and 'Predator' are no longer canon and that would be the "official" position, regardless of whether it makes sense from a business or narrative standpoint.
I agree that they could do it, but they haven't actually done it.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 04:00:28 PMAccording to Gaska, FOX's stance is that "licensing policy" and "canon policy" one and the same.Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
For the record, I largely agree with the logic and reasoning in your blog post, and it demonstrates why "official canon" is not a useful concept for the end-user (see also: the articles linked in my signature) - when there's a mountain of evidence to suggest the two franchises are linked but the actual official stance from FOX is "nope, they're separate", then the official stance is meaningless. :P
The actual issue here seems to be one of licensing issues rather than official canon and so there's just a lot of confusing miscategorizing going on here.
Like I said, I think that's dumb but I don't work for FOX. :P
Quote from: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 04:00:28 PMThere's nothing saying that they need to be, though. The fact that FOX/Disney could say at the drop of a hat that things are/aren't canon and you'd have to deal with the ramifications is proof of that.Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
Canon and continuity are not synonyms.
They're not synonyms but they are connected.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 04:00:28 PMGaska said that FOX repeatedly told him in no uncertain terms that Alien, Predator, and AvP are separate, there was no confusion or misunderstanding.Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
What do you mean?
I think he's trying to get across that consultants can get things wrong and misinterpret and misunderstand and miscategorize things, which I for one would certainly agree with.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 04:00:28 PMAs I said, an "official canon" policy need not make logical sense - but that doesn't make it any less official. :)Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
According to Gaska, licensing and universe canon are the same thing from FOX's perspective (this may change under Disney)
Not only do I take such claims with a pinch of salt, but I would also strongly question them because it makes no logical sense (licenses=/=official canon), and it seems more like there is some misinterpretation, misunderstanding, and miscategorizing going on here.
And once again, this is merely the official canon policy as it currently stands. This could change under Disney (and personally I hope it does).
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 05:37:31 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 05:37:31 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 04:36:10 PM
Yes there is, you simply weren't privy to it because you don't work for FOX. Those that do are privy to it and have shared it - you simply don't like what they have to say.
They haven't really said anything thus far, and I have yet to see convincing reports of what Fox is actually saying. But again, if their products are anything to go by, then I can only assume I'm correct in my assessment here.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 04:36:10 PM
Again, "official canon" is not the same thing as "the products they choose to release", as little sense as that may make.
Yes, that essentially is what it is, but it usually comes with some form of declaration if it isn't canon, which is why I'm saying someone's committing a category mistake when they think it concerns licensing issues.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 04:36:10 PM
According to Gaska, originally FOX was all on board with a shared universe concept until Covenant and The Predator entered production and both Ridley Scott and Shane Black internally voiced their dislike of the concept, and then 'Justice League' massively underperformed and FOX felt that "shared universes" were a bad idea and opted to change course. 'The Predator' went through massive production problems leading to the wackiness with the Ripley and Newt endings and the facehugger/Weyland-Yutani breathing mask and all of that, and Shane Black made his public statements about AvP as a way to draw in support from fans because he knew his movie had major problems, but behind the scenes FOX's stance remained unchanged. Gaska said he was specifically hired to write FOX's "Predator bible" because they were making things separate. He likened Shane Black's comments to Ridley Scott saying 'Blade Runner' is part of the Alien universe.
Gaska says a lot, but it doesn't quite fit the evidence unfortunately for him. I have a hard time buying this story, and I feel we're not being given an accurate account here. You can't blame me for finding it hard to take his assertions seriously.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 04:36:10 PM
Gaska said that FOX repeatedly told him in no uncertain terms that Alien, Predator, and AvP are separate, there was no confusion or misunderstanding.
Again, Gaska says a lot, but he's still not immune to misunderstandings, nor personal bias or slight deceit (whether consciously or unconsciously), no matter how much he may insist otherwise, which is only further suggested when he praises the idea of Alien and Predator being separate. On a further note, I would hate to have someone who promotes division be involved in this franchise.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 05:49:13 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 05:49:13 PM
QuoteThey haven't really said anything thus far, and I have yet to see convincing reports of what Fox is actually saying.You not being convinced by it doesn't mean it isn't real. :)
QuoteBut again, if their products are anything to go by, then I can only assume I'm correct in my assessment here.Then in that case you're wrong whether you like it or not.
Quotebut it usually comes with some form of declaration if it isn't canonThat doesn't mean it has to, though. This time it didn't.
QuoteGaska says a lot, but it doesn't quite fit the evidence unfortunately for him. I have a hard time buying this story, and I feel we're not being given an accurate account here. You can't blame me for finding it hard to take his assertions seriously.That's your prerogative, but he works for FOX and you don't. What reason does he have for lying or misrepresenting it?
Like I said, FOX spelled out its stance to him in no uncertain terms. It couldn't get more clear. :P
QuoteAgain, Gaska says a lot, but he's still not immune to misunderstandings, nor personal bias or slight deceit (whether consciously or unconsciously), no matter how much he may insist otherwise, which is only further suggested when he praises the idea of Alien and Predator being separate.His personal opinion or bias doesn't affect FOX's stance as it was spelled out to him.
You can choose to disagree with him, but at best you're subscribing to your own personal canon whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. Just because you declare it to be "the official canon" does not make it so.
For the record, I agree with you that AvP should be one huge franchise and there's evidence to support it. Fox isn't saying that AvP "isn't canon", it's saying that there are three canon universes - one where specifically only Alien stuff happens, one where specifically only Predator stuff happens, and an AvP one that has everything. It's not like AvP doesn't exist, it's just that when new things are created they're done so under the mindset of "is this Alien, Predator, or AvP?" based on FOX's instructions for the project. The RPG, for example, is strictly Alien stuff, no Predator or AvP allowed. The Predator bible is strictly Predator stuff.
Like I said, internal declarations of "official canon policy" are just that - internal. They're meant to guide creative projects and set limits on them, they're not meant for public consumption and you're demonstrating why. :)
I'm not taking issue with your conclusions regarding AvP, I (mostly) agree with them. I'm taking issue with you unilaterally declaring that they're "official canon" (they're not; you don't make those decisions). Your blog post is a perfect case study in someone who doesn't like the official canon and chooses to reject it (as is your right to do so!), the problem is you're slapping the word "official" on it and expecting people to follow it. FOX doesn't care what you believe. :P
As I said before, "official canon" is a nonsense concept that's not useful to the end user, and your blog post demonstrates why. You posted a million-word treatise with pictures and stuff about how FOX is wrong about a franchise they own. It couldn't get more "personal canon" than that. :P
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 06:44:42 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 06:44:42 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 05:49:13 PM
You not being convinced by it doesn't mean it isn't real. :)
Oh, I will admit as much, but that doesn't mean it is real either. ;)
QuoteThen in that case you're wrong whether you like it or not.
But how? :laugh:
QuoteThat doesn't mean it has to, though. This time it didn't.
Well, if it doesn't, then there's no way to confirm it.
QuoteThat's your prerogative, but he works for FOX and you don't. What reason does he have for lying or misrepresenting it?
Personal preference, living out his personal canon. He openly acknowledged that he loves a divided franchise after all. Humans are notorious liars, both consciously as well as unconsciously.
QuoteLike I said, FOX spelled out its stance to him in no uncertain terms. It couldn't get more clear. :P
If you buy his story.
QuoteHis personal opinion or bias doesn't affect FOX's stance as it was spelled out to him.
Again, if you buy his story.
QuoteYou can choose to disagree with him, but at best you're subscribing to your own personal canon whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. Just because you declare it to be "the official canon" does not make it so.
I'm not disagreeing with him as much as I'm criticizing and doubting him, and I don't declare it to be the official canon as much as I assume it must be since Fox have never made any statement to the contrary and they've continually acted like what you call "my personal canon" is the real deal.
QuoteFor the record, I agree with you that AvP should be one huge franchise and there's evidence to support it. Fox isn't saying that AvP "isn't canon", it's saying that there are three canon universes - one where specifically only Alien stuff happens, one where specifically only Predator stuff happens, and an AvP one that has everything. It's not like AvP doesn't exist, it's just that when new things are created they're done so under the mindset of "is this Alien, Predator, or AvP?" based on FOX's instructions for the project. The RPG, for example, is strictly Alien stuff, no Predator or AvP allowed. The Predator bible is strictly Predator stuff.
Again, only if you buy what Gaska is saying. Noting that he's not even being quite consistent, and one example here being that he states the RPG can include anything as far as smurfs and so then I assume it can also include Predators because he expressly stated that it's designed that way.
QuoteLike I said, internal declarations of "official canon policy" are just that - internal. They're meant to guide creative projects and set limits on them, they're not meant for public consumption and you're demonstrating why. :)
Of course, but they are yet to actually be revealed.
QuoteI'm not taking issue with your conclusions regarding AvP, I (mostly) agree with them. I'm taking issue with you unilaterally declaring that they're "official canon" (they're not; you don't make those decisions).
I understand you're not taking issue with that, and I'm not declaring/deciding what is canon and what isn't, but I'm merely trying to take an objective stance and making observations and drawing conclusions. Feel free to disagree with them but I feel they are pretty tight in what they're suggesting.
QuoteYour blog post is a perfect case study in someone who doesn't like the official canon and chooses to reject it (as is your right to do so!), the problem is you're slapping the word "official" on it and expecting people to follow it. FOX doesn't care what you believe. :P
I can't really decide whether not to like something if I don't even know what it is, and Fox have yet to reveal their actual stance on this. I think the slogan "Fox doesn't care what you believe" is the very one I would use to further my argument, which I think is pretty solid, seeing as my argument is based primarily on Fox's own products rather than any personal opinion or preference of mine.
QuoteAs I said before, "official canon" is a nonsense concept that's not useful to the end user, and your blog post demonstrates why. You posted a million-word treatise with pictures and stuff about how FOX is wrong about a franchise they own. It couldn't get more "personal canon" than that. :P
I beg your pardon? The article was never directed at Fox, but at anyone (whether they work with/for Fox or not) who dare assert that there is no shared universe and that it isn't official canon, and it uses evidence provided by Fox themselves to criticize and debunk such claims.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 07:21:34 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 07:21:34 PM
QuoteOh, I will admit as much, but that doesn't mean it is real either.You doubting it's real doesn't make it less real. :)
QuoteBut how?FOX decides what their canon policy is, and we know what it is.
QuotePersonal preference, living out his personal canon. He openly acknowledged that he loves a divided franchise after all. Humans are notorious liars, both consciously as well as unconsciously.You pigeon-holing or handwaving what he's saying doesn't make it less true. You can choose not to believe him, that just makes you wrong.
QuoteIf you buy his story.I'm willing to trust the word of someone who was hired by FOX to do a job over a random guy on the internet with a blog. :P
He was given a directive, and he followed it.
QuoteI don't declare it to be the official canonlmao you say it is repeatedly throughout your article. :D You even have a big honking picture at the bottom of the article labeled "THE OFFICIAL CINEMATIC XENOVERSE".
QuoteFox have never made any statement to the contraryJust because they didn't make it to you personally doesn't mean they didn't make it at all.
QuoteNoting that he's not even being quite consistent, and one example here being that he states the RPG can include anything as far as smurfs and so then I assume it can also include Predators because he expressly stated that it's designed that way.The RPG has a baseline canon framework, upon which players and readers can build with whatever they deem fit. This doesn't make their personal additions somehow "officially canon", they're simply true within their own personal narrative. A personal canon, if you will.
QuoteOf course, but they are yet to actually be revealed.Yes they have - internally. You're being made privy to them and you're not liking what you're hearing, so you're coming up with excuses and handwaves to doubt it so you can keep believing what you want.
Believing what you want is totally cool - declaring it as some "objective" fact isn't.
QuoteI'm merely trying to take an objective stance and making observations and drawing conclusions. Feel free to disagree with them but I feel they are pretty tight in what they're suggesting.As stated, your logical conclusions don't have to jive with what FOX says or does, and they're the ones who decide what's "officially canon".
QuoteI can't really decide whether not to like something if I don't even know what it is, and Fox have yet to reveal their actual stance on this.Yes they did, you're just choosing not to believe the source.
QuoteThe article was never directed at Fox, but at anyone (whether they work with/for Fox or not) who dare assert that there is no shared universe and that it isn't official canon, and it uses evidence provided by Fox themselves to criticize and debunk such claims.As stated, there is an AvP canon - it's just separate from Alien and Predator. There isn't one singular unifying canon to which all things are beholden, there are three.
Acknowledging that lets you have your cake and eat it too - one can assume there are versions of Alien and Predator solo media which can be considered part of the AvP canon, but when the writers and creators are given instructions on what they can and cannot do, they're told that their media fits in one of three "official canons". That's why the RPG not only doesn't reference anything literally labeled Predator or AvP, but also doesn't reference anything "Aliens" that ended up having Predators in it (an example is Prometheus: Fire & Stone/Life & Death; despite the title, they have Predators in them so they're retroactively AvP materials and off-limits. Another example is the Predator: Concrete Jungle video game - by having Aliens in it, it's retroactively an AvP product from an "official canon" standpoint, and anything that's meant to be "Predator only" can't reference it).
From Gaska's article:
"The first thing to understand about ALIEN, Predator, and AVP is that they are three franchise universes.
AVP is officially a separate franchise and therefore a separate canon than Alien/Prometheus. Predator is also separate from AVP and Alien/Prometheus. If a Predator shows up in an alien project, that project is in the AVP universe and not Alien.
THE TRUTH ABOUT EASTER EGGS
Easter Eggs are never an indicator of canon, they are surprise homages and nothing more. The separation of franchises is per Fox themselves, and was handed to me as perimeters to follow when I first worked on the Predator Bible for them. Lots of people get frustrated by the AVP statements above. They want Predator in their Alien. Personally I think both franchises are better on their own, so I'm happy about AVP being a third franchise."
He (and FOX) isn't saying AvP isn't canon, just that it is its own canon universe which is licensed and operates separately from the singular Alien and Predator licenses. According to FOX, licensing = canon, licensing guides what is and isn't allowed to be included in a given piece of media, and dictates which of the three canons it becomes a part of.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 08:04:20 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 16, 2020, 08:04:20 PM
QuoteYou doubting it's real doesn't make it less real. :)
Certainly, but you still need to show it is real though.
QuoteFOX decides what their canon policy is, and we know what it is.
If you mean Gaska, then that's debatable.
QuoteYou pigeon-holing or handwaving what he's saying doesn't make it less true. You can choose not to believe him, that just makes you wrong.
I don't see the evidence for that though.
QuoteI'm willing to trust the word of someone who was hired by FOX to do a job over a random guy on the internet with a blog. :P
He was given a directive, and he followed it.
I mean that's up to you. Noting that it's not as much my word against his word but more Fox's word against his word, which has been my whole point.
Quotelmao you say it is repeatedly throughout your article. :D You even have a big honking picture at the bottom of the article labeled "THE OFFICIAL CINEMATIC XENOVERSE".
Guilty as charge! But I mean I don't act like I'm declaring as in deciding what is canon, but I'm merely an observer and I report what I see. :laugh:
QuoteJust because they didn't make it to you personally doesn't mean they didn't make it at all.
You'll be glad to know I never argued that either.
QuoteThe RPG has a baseline canon framework, upon which players and readers can build with whatever they deem fit. This doesn't make their personal additions somehow "officially canon", they're simply true within their own personal narrative. A personal canon, if you will.
Certainly, and this is what Gaska's proposed canon seems to be mostly intended for.
QuoteYes they have - internally.
The implication of my statement being that they haven't expressly revealed it to the fanbase so that we can actually discuss on it, so that's not true.
QuoteYou're being made privy to them and you're not liking what you're hearing, so you're coming up with excuses and handwaves to doubt it so you can keep believing what you want.
I mean I admittedly do not find Gaska's proposed canon at all desirable, but at the same time I'm pretty confident in my criticisms.
QuoteBelieving what you want is totally cool - declaring it as some "objective" fact isn't.
But I haven't declared my personal preferences as "objective fact".
QuoteAs stated, your logical conclusions don't have to jive with what FOX says or does, and they're the ones who decide what's "officially canon".
That's precisely the argument I'm making.
QuoteYes they did, you're just choosing not to believe the source.
No they haven't, but an individual working with/for Fox has made assertions relating to this.
QuoteAs stated, there is an AvP canon - it's just separate from Alien and Predator. There isn't one singular unifying canon to which all things are beholden, there are three.
Again, Fox has said no such thing, and it's not reflected in their products.
QuoteAcknowledging that lets you have your cake and eat it too - one can assume there are versions of Alien and Predator solo media which can be considered part of the AvP canon, but when the writers and creators are given instructions on what they can and cannot do, they're told that their media fits in one of three "official canons". That's why the RPG not only doesn't reference anything literally labeled Predator or AvP, but also doesn't reference anything "Aliens" that ended up having Predators in it (an example is Prometheus: Fire & Stone/Life & Death; despite the title, they have Predators in them so they're retroactively AvP materials and off-limits. Another example is the Predator: Concrete Jungle video game - by having Aliens in it, it's retroactively an AvP product from an "official canon" standpoint, and anything that's meant to be "Predator only" can't reference it).
You're talking licensing issues, not official canon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on Oct 16, 2020, 08:47:46 PM
Post by: Kradan on Oct 16, 2020, 08:47:46 PM
I imagine someone accidentaly opening this thread and thinking: "No way in f**k I'm gonna read all of that"
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 16, 2020, 09:01:53 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 16, 2020, 09:01:53 PM
Is like Battle of Stalingrad in war of canon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 09:15:34 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 09:15:34 PM
QuoteCertainly, but you still need to show it is real though.Already done, you're just choosing not to see it. :)
QuoteI don't see the evidence for that though.That's because FOX didn't communicate it to you, they communicate it to their licensees and creators. One of those chose to share it with you, and you don't like what you're hearing so you're coming up with excuses not to believe it.
QuoteI mean that's up to you. Noting that it's not as much my word against his word but more Fox's word against his word, which has been my whole point.You don't know what their word is, though - Gaska does. Fox's actions are not their word.
QuoteGuilty as charge! But I mean I don't act like I'm declaring as in deciding what is canon, but I'm merely an observer and I report what I see.You should probably indicate that in your blog post instead of stating it as immutable fact, then. ;)
QuoteYou'll be glad to know I never argued that either.Yes you have. By saying "there is no evidence because FOX didn't say it" is you saying that they haven't said it to you.
QuoteThe implication of my statement being that they haven't expressly revealed it to the fanbase so that we can actually discuss on it, so that's not true.That's because they don't reveal it to the fanbase, because it's not meant for public consumption. Again, we've found out what their official canon policy is, you simply don't like it.
QuoteBut I haven't declared my personal preferences as "objective fact".Yes you did, by having a big honking picture saying "THE OFFICIAL CINEMATIC XENOVERSE" on your blog, or when your blog article says things like:
"Now, for the following article I intend to examine this debate and eventually determine which side is most likely to be objectively true"
"The case seems to be clear as to the Alien, Predator, Alien vs. Predator, and Prometheus franchises all taking place within a single continuity for as long as they've been around, and there appears to be no considerable reasons to oppose this rather obvious fact"
(emphasis mine)
QuoteNo they haven't, but an individual working with/for Fox has made assertions relating to this.That's because FOX stated it to him in no uncertain terms, and he's under contract to follow those terms (which is what he did). He's reporting those terms to you, and you're choosing not to believe him - that doesn't suddenly make him wrong, it just means you have an opinion. Facts =/= opinions.
QuoteAgain, Fox has said no such thing, and it's not reflected in their products.Yes they've said it, they didn't say it to you. Their words need not be reflected in their perceived actions.
QuoteYou're talking licensing issues, not official canon.According to Gaska, FOX considers them to be one and the same. I agree that it's dumb and doesn't make sense, but it doesn't change the fact that that's how they're choosing to operate.
Once more for the people in the cheap seats: no one is saying there is no AvP canon - there is. The reality is that there are currently three canons, and products are currently produced to slot into one of those three.
That is the canon as it currently stands. It's not how things were (as your article points out), but it's how they currently "officially" are whether you like it or not. It's also not necessarily how things will stay forever - as Gaska's article points out, things are canon until they're not.
If you're choosing to believe there's only one singular unified canon, that's your personal canon whether you're willing to admit it or not. Again: there is an AvP canon, which contains everything. There's just also separate Alien and Predator canons, which don't contain everything.
The sooner you come to terms with this and recognize that you need not be beholden to "official canon", the happier you'll be. :)
Also you're not nearly as objective as you think you are - using terms like "universalists" shows an inherent bias and agenda. And I'm saying that as a universalist.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 16, 2020, 09:01:53 PMDa, comrade.
Is like Battle of Stalingrad in war of canon.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: 426Buddy on Oct 16, 2020, 09:45:13 PM
Post by: 426Buddy on Oct 16, 2020, 09:45:13 PM
This cold war just got hot :D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 16, 2020, 10:25:41 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 16, 2020, 10:25:41 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Oct 16, 2020, 09:45:13 PM
This cold war just got hot :D
(https://i.imgur.com/zL3AKqY.gif)
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 09:15:34 PMEU Lore bibles etc. meant for licensees and not meant for public consumption.Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 16, 2020, 01:58:44 PMA consultant just can't go there via official internal documents when working within a individual license.What do you mean?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 10:38:56 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 10:38:56 PM
Maybe it's been a long day, I apologize but I'm still confused what you mean. Like, what about the lore bibles?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 16, 2020, 11:56:10 PM
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 16, 2020, 11:56:10 PM
Fox can have their boring bible. I will make my own with Praetorians and Space Jockeys.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 12:09:31 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 12:09:31 AM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Oct 16, 2020, 11:56:10 PMThis guy gets it
Fox can have their boring bible. I will make my own with Praetorians and Space Jockeys.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 17, 2020, 01:20:24 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 17, 2020, 01:20:24 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 10:38:56 PM
Maybe it's been a long day, I apologize but I'm still confused what you mean. Like, what about the lore bibles?
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/dfcc80661027619198b2d9a6d8706f44/tenor.gif)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 16, 2020, 01:58:44 PM
Yet, when we have larger stories that involves it all, ala Fire and Stone, and you include portions of that group story into that individual license partitioned canon, it's fair to say it all happened. A consultant just can't go there via official internal documents when working within a individual license.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Oct 17, 2020, 01:35:49 AM
Post by: SiL on Oct 17, 2020, 01:35:49 AM
It's fair to say Gaska's listing implies none of it happened, but if you wanted to take something from it, take the license-specific bits as hear-say.
Doesn't really seem that complicated.
Doesn't really seem that complicated.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 17, 2020, 02:59:16 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 17, 2020, 02:59:16 AM
Quote from: SiL on Oct 17, 2020, 01:35:49 AM
It's fair to say Gaska's listing implies none of it happened, but if you wanted to take something from it, take the license-specific bits as hear-say.
Doesn't really seem that complicated.
In his personal take on how to "try to figure out how exactly that could still fit in canon", no Gaska did not imply with Fire and Stone that "none of it happened". He did not. Gaska said "This stuff should be thought of as tall-tales told in bars. The events may or may (not) have happened as described" There's no implication one way or another.
QuoteDoesn't really seem that complicated.
Agreed. ;)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Oct 17, 2020, 03:04:33 AM
Post by: SiL on Oct 17, 2020, 03:04:33 AM
It's given the same weight as a video game about Ripley hopping from Hadley's Hope to Fury then back to the Derelict -- pink acid boots optional. Pretty good indication it's not really supposed to be taken as having really happened in the Alien universe.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 17, 2020, 03:17:08 AM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 17, 2020, 03:17:08 AM
Just taking Gaska at his word, not my interpretation of it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 03:40:24 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 03:40:24 AM
Quote from: SiL on Oct 17, 2020, 03:04:33 AMYour back-and-forth is kind of Gaska's point (and the reason he structured the RPG the way he did). It may have happened.... or it may not have. Or some variation of it happened. Or only part of it happened. Who knows!
It's given the same weight as a video game about Ripley hopping from Hadley's Hope to Fury then back to the Derelict -- pink acid boots optional. Pretty good indication it's not really supposed to be taken as having really happened in the Alien universe.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on Oct 17, 2020, 05:06:46 AM
Post by: Kradan on Oct 17, 2020, 05:06:46 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 16, 2020, 09:01:53 PM
Is like Battle of Stalingrad in war of canon.
And who are Nazis and who are Soviets ?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 05:53:22 AM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 05:53:22 AM
Quote from: Kradan on Oct 17, 2020, 05:06:46 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Oct 16, 2020, 09:01:53 PM
Is like Battle of Stalingrad in war of canon.
And who are Nazis and who are Soviets ?
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 09:15:34 PM
Da, comrade.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 17, 2020, 06:28:48 AM
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 17, 2020, 06:28:48 AM
Quote from: Kradan on Oct 17, 2020, 05:06:46 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Oct 16, 2020, 09:01:53 PM
Is like Battle of Stalingrad in war of canon.
And who are Nazis and who are Soviets ?
Ты вступишь в Красную Армию.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Kradan on Oct 17, 2020, 06:41:38 AM
Post by: Kradan on Oct 17, 2020, 06:41:38 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 05:53:22 AMQuote from: Kradan on Oct 17, 2020, 05:06:46 AMQuote from: Local Trouble on Oct 16, 2020, 09:01:53 PM
Is like Battle of Stalingrad in war of canon.
And who are Nazis and who are Soviets ?Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 09:15:34 PM
Da, comrade.
Ok fine, Still, who are Nazis ?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 17, 2020, 08:32:08 AM
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 17, 2020, 08:32:08 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 16, 2020, 09:14:20 PM
It's TurokSWE calling people who know the information liars again, first with S M, now with Andrew Gaska, don't act surprised when he does it again in the future at the sight of the next official canon update.
You take for granted that they're giving you accurate information, and this despite that the products Fox produces contradicts it.
QuoteAlready done, you're just choosing not to see it. :)
I would agree, if it were true.
QuoteThat's because FOX didn't communicate it to you, they communicate it to their licensees and creators. One of those chose to share it with you, and you don't like what you're hearing so you're coming up with excuses not to believe it.
That's the claim, not the evidence.
QuoteYou don't know what their word is, though - Gaska does. Fox's actions are not their word.
It was implied that I meant Fox's products, not any spoken or written statements. You are correct however that they haven't made any statement on this matter, and I do not know what exactly Gaska knows, nor do I know whether he's relaying accurate information, but they're certainly questionable. He's not a reliable source as determined by his concerning behavior and contradictory statements as well as the fact that he's not actually a representative of Fox.
QuoteYou should probably indicate that in your blog post instead of stating it as immutable fact, then. ;)
I'm pretty sure that I do make this abundantly clear in the article.
QuoteYes you have. By saying "there is no evidence because FOX didn't say it" is you saying that they haven't said it to you.
No, now you're putting words in my mouth. I have never said that they never said it, but there's no evidence to confirm it.
QuoteThat's because they don't reveal it to the fanbase, because it's not meant for public consumption.
I've never disputed that, but it doesn't change the fact that they haven't actually revealed it.
QuoteAgain, we've found out what their official canon policy is, you simply don't like it.
Again, that's the claim, but it's highly questionable, regardless of how undesirable of a concept I find it to be.
QuoteYes you did, by having a big honking picture saying "THE OFFICIAL CINEMATIC XENOVERSE" on your blog, or when your blog article says things like: "Now, for the following article I intend to examine this debate and eventually determine which side is most likely to be objectively true" "The case seems to be clear as to the Alien, Predator, Alien vs. Predator, and Prometheus franchises all taking place within a single continuity for as long as they've been around, and there appears to be no considerable reasons to oppose this rather obvious fact" (emphasis mine)
These are the conclusions drawn from the evidence presented, not the conclusions drawn from arguments based on personal preference. It's a pretty big difference, so it's safe to say you've misunderstood me here.
QuoteThat's because FOX stated it to him in no uncertain terms, and he's under contract to follow those terms (which is what he did). He's reporting those terms to you, and you're choosing not to believe him - that doesn't suddenly make him wrong, it just means you have an opinion. Facts =/= opinions.
Multiple issues here, again, as not only are these the claims which he has made, but it may also be that (if true) that there has been some misunderstanding somewhere in confusing the troublesome handling of licenses and the topic of official canon. I don't know if he's right, but I feel I have good reason to doubt it, and me not buying his words of course doesn't mean that he's wrong, but it doesn't mean that he's right either.
QuoteYes they've said it, they didn't say it to you. Their words need not be reflected in their perceived actions.
I mean this reasoning is pretty silly, because I'm clearly implying that Fox has made no public declaration that can therefore be confirmed, not that they haven't said anything internally, which we do not know, but we have questionable assertions regarding this from an individual working with/for Fox. I am not saying that their words on this needs to be reflected in their products, but if it isn't reflected in their products (and if they haven't made any public declaration) then we have no actual way to confirm it, but all we have are individual unofficial (and questionable) rumors. Do you see what I'm saying here?
QuoteAccording to Gaska, FOX considers them to be one and the same. I agree that it's dumb and doesn't make sense, but it doesn't change the fact that that's how they're choosing to operate. Once more for the people in the cheap seats: no one is saying there is no AvP canon - there is. The reality is that there are currently three canons, and products are currently produced to slot into one of those three. That is the canon as it currently stands. It's not how things were (as your article points out), but it's how they currently "officially" are whether you like it or not. It's also not necessarily how things will stay forever - as Gaska's article points out, things are canon until they're not.
That is, again, all according to Gaska and if you choose to believe him without question. I can't go that far, and insistently repeating what he has said doesn't make them more acceptable or reliable.
QuoteIf you're choosing to believe there's only one singular unified canon, that's your personal canon whether you're willing to admit it or not.
Using that line of reasoning I could as well say that "choosing to believe Gaska's canon means it's just your personal canon whether you like it or not" and it clearly doesn't hold up. In reality, I'm temporarily disregarding my personal preferences and taking a comprehensive perspective and looks at what Fox has put out there and drawing a necessary conclusion from it.
QuoteAgain: there is an AvP canon, which contains everything. There's just also separate Alien and Predator canons, which don't contain everything. The sooner you come to terms with this and recognize that you need not be beholden to "official canon", the happier you'll be. :)
Again, according to Gaska. Noting that the lack of an official comprehensive canon is only causing division and debate, and by no means does it lead to happiness.
QuoteAlso you're not nearly as objective as you think you are - using terms like "universalists" shows an inherent bias and agenda. And I'm saying that as a universalist.
Is it not true that there are proponents of a unified canon and proponents of a divided canon? In that case, how are the use of such terms "inherently biased agendas" rather than objective descriptions?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 12:11:07 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 12:11:07 PM
Cool story bro :D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 17, 2020, 12:50:21 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 17, 2020, 12:50:21 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 12:11:07 PM
Cool story bro :D
Thanks? :laugh:
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 01:58:09 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 01:58:09 PM
I was merely giving your reply the amount of attention it deserves. ;)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 17, 2020, 02:10:55 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 17, 2020, 02:10:55 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/k66TKJR/giphy-3.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 17, 2020, 03:18:30 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 17, 2020, 03:18:30 PM
I like where this is headed.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 17, 2020, 03:58:52 PM
Post by: Samhain13 on Oct 17, 2020, 03:58:52 PM
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FlatEarlyCock-size_restricted.gif)
There's no stopping what can't be stopped, no killing what can't be killed.
-Canon Wars Veteran, 2020
Spoiler
There's no stopping what can't be stopped, no killing what can't be killed.
-Canon Wars Veteran, 2020
[close]
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 04:40:49 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 04:40:49 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 17, 2020, 03:18:30 PMYeah, straight to my ignore list. It's hard reasoning with people who ignore evidence they don't like and declare their opinions are "facts", under the guise of being "objective" (lmao)
I like where this is headed.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 17, 2020, 05:18:40 PM
Post by: TurokSwe on Oct 17, 2020, 05:18:40 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 01:58:09 PM
I was merely giving your reply the amount of attention it deserves. ;)
Alright.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 17, 2020, 04:40:49 PMQuote from: Local Trouble on Oct 17, 2020, 03:18:30 PMYeah, straight to my ignore list. It's hard reasoning with people who ignore evidence they don't like and declare their opinions are "facts", under the guise of being "objective" (lmao)
I like where this is headed.
Right back atcha buddy! ;)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Oct 17, 2020, 11:13:37 PM
Post by: Huggs on Oct 17, 2020, 11:13:37 PM
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Stitch on Oct 17, 2020, 11:59:57 PM
Post by: Stitch on Oct 17, 2020, 11:59:57 PM
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 17, 2020, 11:13:37 PM'This video is not available'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZJRJpbGkG4
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Oct 18, 2020, 12:15:21 AM
Post by: Huggs on Oct 18, 2020, 12:15:21 AM
Quote from: Stitch on Oct 17, 2020, 11:59:57 PMQuote from: Huggs on Oct 17, 2020, 11:13:37 PM'This video is not available'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZJRJpbGkG4
Then what is it good for? ;)
Spoiler
"War" sung by Edwin Starr
[close]
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Stitch on Oct 18, 2020, 01:21:10 AM
Post by: Stitch on Oct 18, 2020, 01:21:10 AM
Quote from: Huggs on Oct 18, 2020, 12:15:21 AMSay it again?Quote from: Stitch on Oct 17, 2020, 11:59:57 PMQuote from: Huggs on Oct 17, 2020, 11:13:37 PM'This video is not available'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZJRJpbGkG4
Then what is it good for? ;)Spoiler
"War" sung by Edwin Starr[close]
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Huggs on Oct 18, 2020, 01:24:38 AM
Post by: Huggs on Oct 18, 2020, 01:24:38 AM
Canon!
Good God y'all.
Good God y'all.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on Oct 18, 2020, 04:40:57 PM
Post by: Kradan on Oct 18, 2020, 04:40:57 PM
I still would like to know -- who are Nazis here ?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 18, 2020, 04:42:31 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 18, 2020, 04:42:31 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Oct 18, 2020, 04:40:57 PMWell if I'm the Soviets... hmm......
I still would like to know -- who are Nazis here ?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on Oct 18, 2020, 04:43:50 PM
Post by: Kradan on Oct 18, 2020, 04:43:50 PM
IT DIDN"T MAKE IT ANY CLEARER !
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SiL on Oct 18, 2020, 07:30:27 PM
Post by: SiL on Oct 18, 2020, 07:30:27 PM
There were two people discussing and one is the soviets, so...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Delta Echo Alpha Delta on Oct 19, 2020, 09:29:21 AM
Post by: Delta Echo Alpha Delta on Oct 19, 2020, 09:29:21 AM
Canon arguments are pointless, people like what they like and they ignore the rest.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on Oct 19, 2020, 10:33:18 AM
Post by: Kradan on Oct 19, 2020, 10:33:18 AM
Quote from: SiL on Oct 18, 2020, 07:30:27 PM
There were two people discussing and one is the soviets, so...
OH. ok
Quote from: muthur9000 on Oct 19, 2020, 09:29:21 AM
Canon arguments are pointless, people like what they like and they ignore the rest.
As long as something is fun it isn't pointless
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 19, 2020, 10:39:11 AM
Post by: SM on Oct 19, 2020, 10:39:11 AM
Quote from: muthur9000 on Oct 19, 2020, 09:29:21 AM
Canon arguments are pointless, people like what they like and they ignore the rest.
It can be hard to hear that from the top of Mt Stupid, however.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on Oct 19, 2020, 11:11:10 AM
Post by: Kradan on Oct 19, 2020, 11:11:10 AM
Said Mr. Canon
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 19, 2020, 01:56:32 PM
Post by: Xenomrph on Oct 19, 2020, 01:56:32 PM
Quote from: muthur9000 on Oct 19, 2020, 09:29:21 AMBingo
Canon arguments are pointless, people like what they like and they ignore the rest.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 19, 2020, 03:40:01 PM
Post by: Voodoo Magic on Oct 19, 2020, 03:40:01 PM
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/chbs0iCIdvbGirfLyv/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: SM on Oct 19, 2020, 08:19:14 PM
Post by: SM on Oct 19, 2020, 08:19:14 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Oct 19, 2020, 11:11:10 AM
Said Mr. Canon
so funny lol
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: OmegaZilla on Oct 19, 2020, 08:47:44 PM
Post by: OmegaZilla on Oct 19, 2020, 08:47:44 PM
aight, quit it folks. Chill.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on Oct 19, 2020, 09:13:11 PM
Post by: Kradan on Oct 19, 2020, 09:13:11 PM
Quote from: SM on Oct 19, 2020, 08:19:14 PMQuote from: Kradan on Oct 19, 2020, 11:11:10 AM
Said Mr. Canon
so funny lol
Thanks, I'm doing my best
Quote from: Omegamorph on Oct 19, 2020, 08:47:44 PM
aight, quit it folks. Chill.
OK
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 20, 2020, 03:15:01 PM
Post by: Local Trouble on Oct 20, 2020, 03:15:01 PM
Quote from: Omegamorph on Oct 19, 2020, 08:47:44 PM
aight, quit it folks. Chill.
You forgot this:
Spoiler
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/c8f61b6d4339cdf31cb59d77dfe60565/tenor.gif)
[close]
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR ...
Post by: OmegaZilla on Oct 21, 2020, 05:45:07 PM
Post by: OmegaZilla on Oct 21, 2020, 05:45:07 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 20, 2020, 03:15:01 PMI mean I WAS thinking of bringing Mr. Freeze back for the profile picQuote from: Omegamorph on Oct 19, 2020, 08:47:44 PM
aight, quit it folks. Chill.
You forgot this:Spoiler
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/c8f61b6d4339cdf31cb59d77dfe60565/tenor.gif)[close]
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] So Covenant confirms that AvP and AvPR are not canon films.
Post by: Kradan on Oct 23, 2020, 11:57:19 AM
Post by: Kradan on Oct 23, 2020, 11:57:19 AM
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/3o84sw9CmwYpAnRRni/giphy.gif)