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So now that some time has passed and a lot of the implications of Prometheus have been digested, a question occurred to me.  I'm not sure if theis was ever really delved into.  It's really a two-part question..

1.  Just how long has Ridley Scott considered that the Space Jockey in Alien is really an engineer; a creature which is "us" and created us?

2.  While we're dealing with that, how long has Ridley Scott held that the aliens were a creation of a human-built android?

I think that these questions are only as profound as their real answers.  If it was Ridley Scott's intent all along, since the late 70's, that the Space Jockey was an Engineer who created us, then the story of Prometheus has merit and is true onto itself.  If it is a pipe dream of his originating somewhere around 2008, and completely upending his original intentions, then it begs the question about what that thing in the chair really was intended to be.  The second question is, well... secondary.

We do have that old Giger painting which shows the guy in the space-suit getting impregnated.  It looks a bit like an Engineer.

Also, Ridley was but one person in the crew of creatives who came up with the Alien mythos.  Perhaps Dan O'Bannon had a different vision for who the Space Jockeys were?  I am curious about how well the notion of the Space Jockey was fleshed out before it became the Engineer, and if it was intended to be an Engineer all along.  With all the interviews which took place, does anyone have any insights?

O'Bannon originally envisioned the Aliens as a civilised, learned and long-lived race one they got over their adolescent blood lust.

The beings in Giger's mural weren't intended to be Space Jockies (despite some similarity).

Ridley's ideas about reinterpreting the Jockies as Engineers and having David create them would've come from the development of Prometheus and Covenant I imagine.  He never mentioned such ideas prior to that in interviews or commentaries to the best of my knowledge.  Valaquen would be the expert though.

Don't know the answers to any of your questions, and probably you'll only find them inside  Scott's head (and a few close confidantes), but...

I'm fairly certain I read some BTS stuf once (maybe the Cinefantastique issue I had on the making of Alien '79), in which there was a description of Scott's first reaction to the completed Alien head. At that time, the plastic dome was a lot more clear and transparent that we know it today. If I remember this correctly, (and I admit to reaching into the darkest recesses of my memory for this), Scott had some reservations about the human skull being so obvious, so he got them to overspray some diffuse paint along the bottom edge to help disguise it.

<speculation mode: on>
I've also heard Scott describe himself as a logical thinker(as in, things in his movies have to make sense), so it could be that right from the very inception of the alien's head design (Giger's painting "Necronom IV") Scott had been puzzling over the skull, trying to rationalize a reason for human anatomy to feature in an alien species. Perhaps this was the starting point for what was to become Prometheus?
</speculation mode: off>

For my part, I used to wonder about the possible genesis behind a hybrid biological - machine creature. There has been some fan speculation about David incorporating features of his own body into the next generation of xeno (with the assistance of the black goo). I guess this would be one explanation.

TC

Scott came up with the "DNA" reflex explanation in '78, '79 before Alien 3 made it a thing. He said it looks like a person cos it came out of a person, and that if it had got the cat it would've looked like the cat.

1. Jon Spaihts, he came up with the idea that the Engineers were us and we were them, because he thought Prometheus and the SJ would only work if "Ultimately it's a story about us." (Because he's a hack that wrote Passengers.)

2. Ridley Scott changed his mind from the Engineers creating the Alien to David creating the Alien, and he's right- out of those two options an A.I that's essentially "Other" to begin with, creating the Alien is far more appropriate than what's essentially space humans.

As for Ridley Scott's original ideas on who the SJ was and where the Alien came from, I don't know about the former but I imagine in the eighties regarding the latter he would've said; Hell.

Scott was talking about, 'what if the big skeleton in the chair was actually a suit' a good two or three years before Prometheus went into production. I imagine he'd been mulling it over for years - when he had time to consider why other director's had avoided it, but whether the original plan was for a humanoid Engineer - who knows?

It's also a logical progression: The Engineers created us, we created David and David created the Xenomorph.

Quote from: Gash on Mar 07, 2019, 02:15:12 AM
Scott was talking about, 'what if the big skeleton in the chair was actually a suit' a good two or three years before Prometheus went into production. I imagine he'd been mulling it over for years - when he had time to consider why other director's had avoided it, but whether the original plan was for a humanoid Engineer - who knows?

Well it cleary is a kind of suit when you do look at it and think of it like a Space man. I don't think it was every meant to be a humanoid inside though.

Also what Sil said, it was always the Alien took on the hosts features.

Most likely reason - Possibly wanted to explore Alien/human story's and use the Alien films to do it. Struck gold on Fassbender and seen potential in making him the baddie.

I mean he's always had pretty crazy ideas, wasn't it him that had a version of Alien where it talks in Ripleys voice and broadcasts a message?

Giger's first and second depiction of the Jockey
(this mural was supposed to be in the egg silo in Alien but I think it got cut because of the budget).

Looks like a humanoid in a suit.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dd/ff/fc/ddfffc1c903554217640ca0dfd63d07a.png)

Looks the same except the head's bigger, looks less humanand more alien.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdefectiveyeti.com%2Fimages%2Falien_giger_big.jpg&hash=e6e58f060260146482fd1cfb5f4e562d8fb37d44)

Quote from: Highland on Mar 09, 2019, 03:28:46 AM
I mean he's always had pretty crazy ideas, wasn't it him that had a version of Alien where it talks in Ripleys voice and broadcasts a message?

I heard that Ridley wanted to end ALIEN this way, it killed Ripley then did that, but don't have a source.

Quote from: Samhain13 on Mar 09, 2019, 03:49:48 AM

Quote from: Highland on Mar 09, 2019, 03:28:46 AM
I mean he's always had pretty crazy ideas, wasn't it him that had a version of Alien where it talks in Ripleys voice and broadcasts a message?

I heard that Ridley wanted to end ALIEN this way, it killed Ripley then did that, but don't have a source.

I think that idea might have been inspired by a Lovecraft short story.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Statement_of_Randolph_Carter

Which led to this excellent 5min short movie


I know it's not the same but it's certainly similar imo.

Quote from: Gash on Mar 07, 2019, 02:15:12 AM
Scott was talking about, 'what if the big skeleton in the chair was actually a suit' a good two or three years before Prometheus went into production.

I'm sure this is correct.  I remember Scott declaring at some point prior to 'PROMETHEUS', "Maybe it's a suit."  For the life of me, I can't recall where I heard it.  Maybe it's just another case of 'Mandella Effect'; but then again... maybe not.  I'm pretty sure he did say it sometime well before the movie was announced.  That's a long time ago, now.  Maybe a decade.

There's variations on the Alien delivering dialogue at the end of the movie.  Some sources say it mimicked Ripley; others say it was to mimic Dallas.  It certainly had plenty of time on its own with Dallas while it had him fastened to a wall.  Hell.  That's a creepy thought, while Dallas was being eggmorphed, it was constantly learning from him, including how to talk.

-Windebieste.

Quote from: windebieste on Mar 09, 2019, 08:51:17 AM

Quote from: Gash on Mar 07, 2019, 02:15:12 AM
Scott was talking about, 'what if the big skeleton in the chair was actually a suit' a good two or three years before Prometheus went into production.

I'm sure this is correct.  I remember Scott declaring at some point prior to 'PROMETHEUS', "Maybe it's a suit."  For the life of me, I can't recall where I heard it.  Maybe it's just another case of 'Mandella Effect'; but then again... maybe not.  I'm pretty sure he did say it sometime well before the movie was announced.  That's a long time ago, now.  Maybe a decade.

There's variations on the Alien delivering dialogue at the end of the movie.  Some sources say it mimicked Ripley; others say it was to mimic Dallas.  It certainly had plenty of time on its own with Dallas while it had him fastened to a wall.  Hell.  That's a creepy thought, while Dallas was being eggmorphed, it was constantly learning from him, including how to talk.

-Windebieste.

Doubtful, or else it would've used a voice to lure Ripley, and then it's cliche.

But the idea of learning the stuff is frightening.

I imagine it stabbing him with a long and pointed finger to make him scream, then imitating the scream along with him. Well off key at first, but perfecting it within a few seconds. Probing the wound to keep him screaming, until it's identical. Two forms screaming in the dark, but one voice. Face to face in the black. Hearing his own voice spouted back at him from his tormentor. It climbs down and slithers away, mimicking his words. A hissing chorus of names and things it doesn't need to understand. It was merely curious. It dashes up a shaft in the distance, and leaves the secretion to its work.

Very unsettling.

Very Annihilation.  That film did this to good effect.

And Predator.

(Whispered) "hey... over here..."

TC

Quote from: windebieste on Mar 09, 2019, 08:51:17 AM
There's variations on the Alien delivering dialogue at the end of the movie.  Some sources say it mimicked Ripley; others say it was to mimic Dallas.  It certainly had plenty of time on its own with Dallas while it had him fastened to a wall.  Hell.  That's a creepy thought, while Dallas was being eggmorphed, it was constantly learning from him, including how to talk.

-Windebieste.

Sort of reminds me of the Alien that burst from Oram and mimicked David.

Quote from: TC on Mar 09, 2019, 11:43:50 AM
And Predator.

(Whispered) "hey... over here..."

TC

So true, actually.

---

Quote from: Elmazalman on Mar 09, 2019, 12:28:26 PM

Quote from: windebieste on Mar 09, 2019, 08:51:17 AM
There's variations on the Alien delivering dialogue at the end of the movie.  Some sources say it mimicked Ripley; others say it was to mimic Dallas.  It certainly had plenty of time on its own with Dallas while it had him fastened to a wall.  Hell.  That's a creepy thought, while Dallas was being eggmorphed, it was constantly learning from him, including how to talk.

-Windebieste.

Sort of reminds me of the Alien that burst from Oram and mimicked David.

Heck even the Alien Queen mimicked Ripley when she pressed the elevator button.

I kinda liked Obannons idea that it got smarter and peaced out. We'd have never got the Alien Franchise we did though if that was the case.

Pretty sure that Ridley quote about the suit was from after Prometheus was in production, just early on.

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2013/07/21/gods-monsters/

Quote from: oduodu on Mar 10, 2019, 02:20:16 AM
https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2013/07/21/gods-monsters/

Good read! Interesting that he mentioned the SJ being "2-3 thousand years old"

Seems like they had a lot of good material, they just couldn't translate it - Probably because of Covenant.

I'm pretty sure I heard Surriddley raise the idea in a commentary for Alien. I may be misremembering, but I think it was on the 1999 standalone DVD which had a ripped Laserdisc commentary. It was definitely before Prometheus was announced. I have a distinct memory of thinking "Dafuk?", and "just as well there's no chance of him making another one".

That commentary had him saying the eggs were to be used as bombs. Nothing about humans in suits.

Some things are just made up as they go along.

(https://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/lukeleiasmooch.gif)

George Lucas put more effort than Ridley.

I don't know, maybe just the incorrect placement of the effort.

As long as he's felt j u i c y.

For nearly 8 years.

Ha, true.

Well according to some things he said it would be at least 20-30 years after ALIEN. I suspect seeing ID4 had something to do with it; Ridley came up with the suit idea. Spaihts concluded that it would be an ancient human under the suit. Clickity (https://monsterlegacy.net/2013/03/04/prometheus-trilobite-deacon-hammerpede-alien/) for some quotes

Good article.

Quote from: Omegamorph on Jul 17, 2019, 09:26:27 AM
Well according to some things he said it would be at least 20-30 years after ALIEN. I suspect seeing ID4 had something to do with it; Ridley came up with the suit idea. Spaihts concluded that it would be an ancient human under the suit. Clickity (https://monsterlegacy.net/2013/03/04/prometheus-trilobite-deacon-hammerpede-alien/) for some quotes

First Godzilla...and now the Space Jockey?  >:(

(https://media.giphy.com/media/S7KUowKjtBHWcZr8DF/giphy.gif)

More like... Jon Spaihts!!!

Yes, you're right. So...

(https://media.giphy.com/media/hWuT4a5JUPCf2XbjQk/giphy.gif)

Quote"The giant [in Alien] was conceived as a skeleton.I kept staring at the skeleton ... then I thought, twenty, thirty, actually twenty six years on, 'what if this is not a skeleton, but we only see it as a skeleton because of our own indoctrination?' and I thought, 'what happens if it's another form of protection, or a suit? If it's a suit, then what's inside the suit?'"

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2013/07/21/gods-monsters/

^Took a couple of pages, but we got there.  ;D

Quote from: SM on Jul 19, 2019, 11:38:04 AM
^Took a couple of pages, but we got there.  ;D

I'm here to serve ;D

IIRC Ridley first spoke about this and caused a panic in the fan base was at Geoff Boucher's Hero Complex Film Fest in 2010, where he said: "I think beneath that carcass... it's not a carcass, it's a suit. Inside the suit is a being." It was reported by the likes of Ain't It Cool News.

Well there we go.  So its not the original plan after all.  I was kind of hoping that was the vision all along, but its just another idea tacked on.

I giant bipedal skeleton elephant is such a better idea than a giant albino white man.

I wouldn't even mind if the Space Jockeys were distantly related to humanity by seeding our planet with the building blocks of life derived from their own.  Humanity would simply be the result of natural evolution on Earth whether we ended up looking like them or not.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 19, 2019, 05:31:36 PM
I wouldn't even mind if the Space Jockeys were distantly related to humanity by seeding our planet with the building blocks of life derived from their own.  Humanity would simply be the result of natural evolution on Earth whether we ended up looking like them or not.

Well, we are related to elephants after all so...

---

Quote from: Kimarhi on Jul 19, 2019, 05:29:51 PM
I giant bipedal skeleton elephant is such a better idea than a giant albino white man.

There is a rational explanation for all this you know...

Here is how they could explain it.  The Space Jockeys were an actual race and they had the Juggernaut ships.  So they created the Engineers who in turn wiped them out.  But the juggernaut ships were designed to fit a space jockey morphologically.  As you can imagine, it is silly for the space suits to be the way they are.  But the space suits were made in the shape of the space jockeys to fit into the drivers' seat of the juggernauts.

The space jockeys were created by ancient robots I say.  Who were created by something else as well...

In one of the early ALIEN issues of "Famous Monsters of Filmland". Forrest Ackerman thought the elephant like ALIEN was so it could house a large brain. IIRC

I really do wish we can go back and leave the Space Jockey a mystery.

You can have both; a prequel and the mystery almost intact. I mean, a prequel that establishes new characters and creatures, but doesn't reveal too much about the most sacred mysteries (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EldritchAbomination). There was never a need to reveal in detail what a Space Jockey is. You can just have them doing things without revealing too much about them, like the black monoliths in "2001: A Space Odyssey".

Quote from: Darwinsgirl on Jul 19, 2019, 07:11:52 PM

In one of the early ALIEN issues of "Famous Monsters of Filmland". Forrest Ackerman thought the elephant like ALIEN was so it could house a large brain. IIRC

That sounds genuinely interesting.

Quote from: Kimarhi on Jul 19, 2019, 05:29:51 PM
I giant bipedal skeleton elephant is such a better idea than a giant albino white man.

I don't know, I think I'd prefer something like the liquid metal guy from Terminator. Maybe I'm going too far with Giger's surrealism and  biomechanoids (what works in a painting, it might not work in a movie). But in all honesty, I never saw the Space Jockey as a bipedal skeleton elephant. I always thought that the thing didn't have legs or that it was a shapeshifting being. In fact, I liked a fake Prometheus premise where the giant stone head was a bio-brain (and kinda the real Space Jockey) who can control the whole installation and the Juggernaut as well. The pilot was more like an avatars to so speak. But ultimately much like Zardoz taking itself too seriously ;D

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jul 19, 2019, 08:56:14 PM
I don't know, I think I'd prefer something like the liquid metal guy from Terminator. Maybe I'm going too far with Giger's surrealism and  biomechanoids (what works in a painting, it might not work in a movie). But in all honesty, I never saw the Space Jockey as a bipedal skeleton elephant. I always thought that the thing didn't have legs or that it was a shapeshifting being.

Giger's own conception was that the Jockey was probably 'grown' to pilot the ship and nothing else. The creature had no other function (nor legs, because it never needed them). It's not analogous to human civilisation like the Engineers are. It was something we couldn't get our heads around. There were probably biomechanic platoons grown simply to fight, biomechanic navigators, pilots, god knows what. Maybe the ship had its own brain. Maybe in 'life' the derelict looked alabaster and translucent like some of Giger's other monsters and landscapes, instead of a dark metallic construct. Maybe the ship was an organism unto itself. Maybe instead of wiring and computer chips it had its own nervous system. There were a lot of cool ideas and themes in Giger's art about transcending biological limitations. His biomechanoids were sometimes warped and twisted in appearance but they had adapted to their environment and survived. Back in the 50's and 60's when Giger was young, there was a lot of fears about radiation and nuclear war. The biomechanoids were in part a response to all that.

I just find all of that far more interesting.

I definitely agree, it's more interesting indeed but also harder to create believably and discuss within a traditional film narrative.

I hope it is explored though, through the creators of the Engineers perhaps.

I hope so too, Giger's original biomech themes need to be explored more in universe, visually especially.

Quote from: The Old One on Jul 20, 2019, 03:25:45 AM
I definitely agree, it's more interesting indeed but also harder to create believably and discuss within a traditional film narrative.

I hope it is explored though, through the creators of the Engineers perhaps.

That's why I'd prefer David Lynch's ALIEN at this point  :laugh: Seeing Twin Peaks: The Return and Covenant in the same year was, well, you could see which artist was at the top of their game.

Unfortunately the average audience doesn't appreciate supreme ambiguity as a genre.

Quote from: Valaquen on Jul 20, 2019, 03:04:29 AM

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jul 19, 2019, 08:56:14 PM
I don't know, I think I'd prefer something like the liquid metal guy from Terminator. Maybe I'm going too far with Giger's surrealism and  biomechanoids (what works in a painting, it might not work in a movie). But in all honesty, I never saw the Space Jockey as a bipedal skeleton elephant. I always thought that the thing didn't have legs or that it was a shapeshifting being.

Giger's own conception was that the Jockey was probably 'grown' to pilot the ship and nothing else. The creature had no other function (nor legs, because it never needed them). It's not analogous to human civilisation like the Engineers are. It was something we couldn't get our heads around. There were probably biomechanic platoons grown simply to fight, biomechanic navigators, pilots, god knows what. Maybe the ship had its own brain. Maybe in 'life' the derelict looked alabaster and translucent like some of Giger's other monsters and landscapes, instead of a dark metallic construct. Maybe the ship was an organism unto itself. Maybe instead of wiring and computer chips it had its own nervous system. There were a lot of cool ideas and themes in Giger's art about transcending biological limitations. His biomechanoids were sometimes warped and twisted in appearance but they had adapted to their environment and survived. Back in the 50's and 60's when Giger was young, there was a lot of fears about radiation and nuclear war. The biomechanoids were in part a response to all that.

I just find all of that far more interesting.

So much wasted potential!  :'(

We'll see, I've got forty more years.
And if the Alien Franchise does, we'll see a "real" Space Jockey, mark my words.

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Mar 09, 2019, 03:39:56 AM
Giger's first and second depiction of the Jockey
(this mural was supposed to be in the egg silo in Alien but I think it got cut because of the budget).

Looks like a humanoid in a suit.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dd/ff/fc/ddfffc1c903554217640ca0dfd63d07a.png)

Looks the same except the head's bigger, looks less humanand more alien.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdefectiveyeti.com%2Fimages%2Falien_giger_big.jpg&hash=e6e58f060260146482fd1cfb5f4e562d8fb37d44)

Something of profound relevance which I never see anyone note regarding this -

If you're familiar with Giger's work, as many of us are, these albino humanoids interacting with biomechanics are in many of his paintings. A better question may be whether the albino humanoid engineers are actually part of Giger's long term influence.

Compare, for instance, the image of Shaw's dead body to Giger's painting of his dead wife Li. Then consider that David considered Shaw his wife. It's all right there. Too bad the studio wouldn't pay Giger's estate. I think Covenant was deliberately drawing parallels / playing homage between David "creating" the Alien and Giger. 

Whilst I appreciate the attempt, it doesn't work for me regardless.
And I'll defend the film against unjust critique but it's certainly not perfect.

Quote from: Valaquen on Jul 20, 2019, 03:04:29 AM
Giger's own conception was that the Jockey was probably 'grown' to pilot the ship and nothing else. The creature had no other function (nor legs, because it never needed them). It's not analogous to human civilisation like the Engineers are. It was something we couldn't get our heads around. There were probably biomechanic platoons grown simply to fight, biomechanic navigators, pilots, god knows what. Maybe the ship had its own brain. Maybe in 'life' the derelict looked alabaster and translucent like some of Giger's other monsters and landscapes, instead of a dark metallic construct. Maybe the ship was an organism unto itself. Maybe instead of wiring and computer chips it had its own nervous system. There were a lot of cool ideas and themes in Giger's art about transcending biological limitations. His biomechanoids were sometimes warped and twisted in appearance but they had adapted to their environment and survived. Back in the 50's and 60's when Giger was young, there was a lot of fears about radiation and nuclear war. The biomechanoids were in part a response to all that.

I just find all of that far more interesting.

I like the idea that there's just a variety of different Giger-esque creatures servicing the ships. The Jockey wasn't going to fit in those corridors Dallas and co. came in through, so I like to think they had some other servant, or technician creatures, that were smaller and used those corridors for moving around and maintenance.

Yes, the corridors along which the crew of Nostromo passed to the bridge, are very small for the Space Jockey. Even the Engineer from Prometheus will scratch his head.

Maybe they were vents?

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jul 22, 2019, 08:32:45 AM

Quote from: Valaquen on Jul 20, 2019, 03:04:29 AM
Giger's own conception was that the Jockey was probably 'grown' to pilot the ship and nothing else. The creature had no other function (nor legs, because it never needed them). It's not analogous to human civilisation like the Engineers are. It was something we couldn't get our heads around. There were probably biomechanic platoons grown simply to fight, biomechanic navigators, pilots, god knows what. Maybe the ship had its own brain. Maybe in 'life' the derelict looked alabaster and translucent like some of Giger's other monsters and landscapes, instead of a dark metallic construct. Maybe the ship was an organism unto itself. Maybe instead of wiring and computer chips it had its own nervous system. There were a lot of cool ideas and themes in Giger's art about transcending biological limitations. His biomechanoids were sometimes warped and twisted in appearance but they had adapted to their environment and survived. Back in the 50's and 60's when Giger was young, there was a lot of fears about radiation and nuclear war. The biomechanoids were in part a response to all that.

I just find all of that far more interesting.

I like the idea that there's just a variety of different Giger-esque creatures servicing the ships. The Jockey wasn't going to fit in those corridors Dallas and co. came in through, so I like to think they had some other servant, or technician creatures, that were smaller and used those corridors for moving around and maintenance.

That's how I imagined it too. Maybe it wasn't a tunnel but a vein, artery or capillary. Ah, the imagination is always better.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jul 22, 2019, 08:32:45 AM

Quote from: Valaquen on Jul 20, 2019, 03:04:29 AM
Giger's own conception was that the Jockey was probably 'grown' to pilot the ship and nothing else. The creature had no other function (nor legs, because it never needed them). It's not analogous to human civilisation like the Engineers are. It was something we couldn't get our heads around. There were probably biomechanic platoons grown simply to fight, biomechanic navigators, pilots, god knows what. Maybe the ship had its own brain. Maybe in 'life' the derelict looked alabaster and translucent like some of Giger's other monsters and landscapes, instead of a dark metallic construct. Maybe the ship was an organism unto itself. Maybe instead of wiring and computer chips it had its own nervous system. There were a lot of cool ideas and themes in Giger's art about transcending biological limitations. His biomechanoids were sometimes warped and twisted in appearance but they had adapted to their environment and survived. Back in the 50's and 60's when Giger was young, there was a lot of fears about radiation and nuclear war. The biomechanoids were in part a response to all that.

I just find all of that far more interesting.

I like the idea that there's just a variety of different Giger-esque creatures servicing the ships. The Jockey wasn't going to fit in those corridors Dallas and co. came in through, so I like to think they had some other servant, or technician creatures, that were smaller and used those corridors for moving around and maintenance.

After reading the Rage War series, the one element which stuck out for me that I liked was that alien thing that was on the ship that was modifying it throughout the entire journey.  I could imagine a similar thing doing its work on the derelict.

Yep, that does conjure a nice image.

It could be one way to explain the difference between a Juggernaut and Derelict.  The Derelict is a model of Juggernaut that's dead.

We agree upon something then.
I think you're correct, it's a good concept and one of a sparse number of things from the series I see as legitimate within the confines of the Alien Universe mythology.

The Jockey may be the Charon of Space. An organism grown into torturous servitude, doomed to ferry death across the stars.

I prefer the first one.
But  also I think other good ideas exist, and I honestly hope David discovers the SJ as another lifeform from before the Engineers existed, already dead eons ago with the deadly cargo.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jul 22, 2019, 08:32:45 AM

Quote from: Valaquen on Jul 20, 2019, 03:04:29 AM
Giger's own conception was that the Jockey was probably 'grown' to pilot the ship and nothing else. The creature had no other function (nor legs, because it never needed them). It's not analogous to human civilisation like the Engineers are. It was something we couldn't get our heads around. There were probably biomechanic platoons grown simply to fight, biomechanic navigators, pilots, god knows what. Maybe the ship had its own brain. Maybe in 'life' the derelict looked alabaster and translucent like some of Giger's other monsters and landscapes, instead of a dark metallic construct. Maybe the ship was an organism unto itself. Maybe instead of wiring and computer chips it had its own nervous system. There were a lot of cool ideas and themes in Giger's art about transcending biological limitations. His biomechanoids were sometimes warped and twisted in appearance but they had adapted to their environment and survived. Back in the 50's and 60's when Giger was young, there was a lot of fears about radiation and nuclear war. The biomechanoids were in part a response to all that.

I just find all of that far more interesting.

I like the idea that there's just a variety of different Giger-esque creatures servicing the ships. The Jockey wasn't going to fit in those corridors Dallas and co. came in through, so I like to think they had some other servant, or technician creatures, that were smaller and used those corridors for moving around and maintenance.

I've long enjoyed this notion of a multitude of xenomorphs servicing the living derelict ships and their SJ masters. ( "Xenomorphs" referring to many more varieties of creature than the single species that invades the Nostromo). I like the parallel it draws between xeno and  android:  both being artificially engineered slave races designed to do the bidding of their respective creators. The difference is that the xenos can procreate but androids cannot - a source of envy in Ash that drives him crazy. Regardless of this, both servant races use their libidos to turn against their creators (the SJ in the derelict has the hole in its chest, Ash attempts to rape Ripley and Parker). I was a bit sad that this theme lost its currency with the Cameron concept, but the prequels have come closer to restoring it.

TC

True, the Alien destroys through it's procreation, and so rebels against all creation and creators- if you see it as such.

You could say the same about some insect species right here on Earth, but that doesn't make them the antithesis of life.

I know, but I see it's relentless consumption of the DNA of other species as entirely unique.
Whilst simultaneously a mockery of the creature it emerges from ultimately.

i always thought of the derelict  as something that was grown and then detached from whatever grew it. the space jockey was grown  with it as part of the ship .  and then went on a many millennial flight through space to deliver its cargo to many worlds. maybe they had space warp time warp tech that allowed them join and fuse different universes at different  points in time with different  outcomes almost a maze of testing different bio tech variations.

the thing is you cant begin to imagine possibilities .  and the vastness of the timescale .

I ultimately prefer it dead, derelict and unknown.

Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Sep 29, 2019, 12:17:25 AM
I ultimately prefer it dead, derelict and unknown.

Amen to this.

It is perfect exactly as it is. Dead and lonely on a lifeless moon. It needs no origin story or explanation.

Totally, absolutely.

It's still dead and lonely on a lifeless moon.

And human apparently, that absence was part my original statement.

Wasn't there an interview with Scott in the article from 80's saying that he was considering doing Alien movie focusing on Space Jockey? I'm pretty sure I've read that at one point but cannot find it now.

I only found this:

QuoteIn the director commentary on the 20th Anniversary Alien DVD (released in 1999) Ridley revealed his larger plan for these beasts:

I always wanted to go back and make an Alien 5 or 6, where we find out where they came from and go there and answer the question, "who are they." Mars is too close so they can't be gods of war, but the theory was, in my head was, this was an aircraft carrier, a battlewagon of a civilisation, and the eggs were a cargo which were essentially weapons. So right, like a large form of bacteriological stroke bio-mechanoid warfare. Once again you can not, you just can not beat this score, it is great. And again the set is pretty spectacular really.

This space jockey, I've always thought was, the driver of the craft who is now after many ages, of course it would be dustless, but has started to look like a perfect example of Giger's mind. Which is "where does biology end and technology begin?" because he seems to have grafted the creature into what essentially was, let's say a pilot's seat. But clearly from here, this is where the transmission would emanate from, probably in an automatic transmission. So this creature obviously had experienced... maybe one of the eggs had been disturbed and a creature had got out, had attacked the rest of the crew, don't ask me where they got to, but he's pretty gruesome, but let's say he's part of the civilisation he came from and now had melded into his seat.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/everything-we-know-about-ridley-scotts-space-jockeys-5879560

Apparently so according to Valaquen, but he doesn't actually supply his source. The second quote seems to imply the Space Jockeys as another civilization.

QuoteIt was reported that one idea for an Alien sequel was "A prequel, rather than a sequel, telling the tale of the Space Jockey and ending where Alien begins, with the arrival of the Nostromo crew." -Valaquen

Quote"It [Alien II] certainly should explain what the Alien is and where it comes from," he [Scott] told Omni's Screen Flights/Screen Fantasies in 1984. "That will be tough because it will require dealing with other planets, worlds, civilisations. Because obviously the Alien did come from some sort of civilisation. The Alien was presented, really, as one of the last survivors of Mars – a planet named after the god of war. The Alien may be one of the last descendants of some long-lost self-destructed group of beings."

Ridley also explained to Cinefantastique that "'in many respects it'll be more interesting [than the first movie], from a pure science-fiction stand point. We'd get into speculative areas, deal with two civilisations."

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/ridley-scotts-alien-ii-or-what-he-wanted-to-happen/ (https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/ridley-scotts-alien-ii-or-what-he-wanted-to-happen/)

Yes, this is the article I was thinking about. Thanks 8th!

Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Oct 06, 2019, 06:25:06 PM
Apparently so according to Valaquen, but he doesn't actually supply his source. The second quote seems to imply the Space Jockeys as another civilization.

QuoteIt was reported that one idea for an Alien sequel was "A prequel, rather than a sequel, telling the tale of the Space Jockey and ending where Alien begins, with the arrival of the Nostromo crew." -Valaquen

https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/ridley-scotts-alien-ii-or-what-he-wanted-to-happen/ (https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/ridley-scotts-alien-ii-or-what-he-wanted-to-happen/)

The source is Warren's Official Alien magazine (1979)  :)

Och aye, thanks!

I see you actually did provide a link on that comment but it's broken now.

Thank you! Fantastic.

** "How long has Ridley held this notion of who the Space Jockey really is?"

* It seems Ridley's thoughts about the Space Jockeys began to form after 1997 and before 1999.
- "Alien Resurrection" was released in 1997. In the DVD commentary from 1999 Scott shared his thoughts.

QuoteIn the director commentary on the 20th Anniversary Alien DVD (released in 1999) Ridley revealed his larger plan for these beasts:

"I always wanted to go back and make an Alien 5 or 6, where we find out where they came from and go there and answer the question, "who are they." Mars is too close so they can't be gods of war, but the theory was, in my head was, this was an aircraft carrier, a battlewagon of a civilisation, and the eggs were a cargo which were essentially weapons. So right, like a large form of bacteriological stroke bio-mechanoid warfare..."

https://io9.gizmodo.com/everything-we-know-about-ridley-scotts-space-jockeys-5879560

Mentioning an "Alien 5" indicates Scott was interested in going back to the Alien franchise after "Alien 4". Then he began to form his ideas about the Space Jockeys.

These concepts from the above quote are in "Prometheus" but there is a lot more about the Space Jockeys/Engineers in that film.

* Enter, Jon Spaihts; 

QuoteBy July 2009, Scott was contracted to direct the film, and screenwriter Jon Spaihts was hired to write the script based on his pitched idea for a direct Alien prequel. With the director and writer in place, and pleased with Spaihts's pitch,...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_(2012_film)#Development

- July 2009 is another point in the development timeline.

- Here is an interview where Spaihts discusses some of his basic principles about the Engineers.

QuoteGiven the age of the wreck as it's characterized in the first Alien movie, my first thought was that these ancient giants must have been the von Daniken‑style aliens who some believe helped to shape ancient civilizations, and raise our early monuments, and, perhaps, even to shape the development of the species itself.
I imagined them as the Engineers who fomented sentient life on earth and then schooled that life into their own image, both cognitively and physically. I suppose the closing idea was that that elephantine alien face of the space jockey was merely a mask. Underneath it, to our astonishment, it would be revealed that they looked like us. Or, perhaps more accurately, that we looked like them.

https://gointothestory.blcklst.com/interview-part-1-jon-spaihts-5cf713ab14c4

- Spaihts established the Space Jockeys as humanoid under a mask/(suit), I assume in his 2009 pitch.
Scott accepted those ideas.
- Importantly, Scott was aware of preproduction artwork for "Alien" which had a space suit idea.
But they weren't fully formed as the definitive view of the Space Jockey until much later.

- The timeline that I have for Ridley bringing up the suit for the Space Jockey idea publicity was in an interview for "Prometheus" very soon before 1/26/12.
Scott said at that time.

Quotewho is that, inside that [Space Jockey] suit? That wasn't a skeleton, that was a suit.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5879560/everything-we-know-about-ridley-scotts-space-jockeys

- But Spaihts had come up with this idea for the "Alien" prequel in 2009. Ridley it seems accepted this Spaihts' Space Jockey idea after hearing it from Spaihts.

* Ridley added more of his views about the Space Jockeys.
Once the script writing was taken away from Spaihts and given to Lindelof, then Scott had more control of the script.
- He took things out. From Lindelof;

QuoteAll these ideas where on the table, and yes, there were drafts that were more explicitly spelled out. I think Ridley's instinct kept being to pull back, and I would say to him, 'Ridley, I'm still eating shit a year after Lost is over for all the things we didnt directly spell out - are you sure you want to do this?' And he said, 'I would rather have people fighting about it and not know, then spell it out, that's just more interesting to me.'

http://diymag.com/archive/a-long-prometheus-discussion-with-writer-damon-lindelof (http://diymag.com/archive/a-long-prometheus-discussion-with-writer-damon-lindelof)

* Ridley added things (from June 2012).

Quotethey are dark angels. If you look at [John Milton's] Paradise Lost,...

Fandango: That is our planet, right? 
RS: No, it doesn't have to be. That could be anywhere.

If you parallel that idea with other sacrificial elements in history – which are clearly illustrated with the Mayans and the Incas – he would live for one year as a prince, and at the end of that year, he would be taken and donated to the gods

https://www.fandango.com/movie-news/interview-sir-ridley-scott-explains-prometheus-explores-our-past-and-teases-future-alien-stories-716238

Ridley saw the Space Jockeys as godlike beings who seeded life throughout the galaxy. He connected the Engineer culture with ancient earth civilizations who had human sacrifice as part of their rituals.

;)

You're a treasure trove of information, thank you for compiling it, although I'm sure I was aware of all of it, years ago.

Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 23, 2019, 02:30:12 AM
You're a treasure trove of information, thank you for compiling it, although I'm sure I was aware of all of it, years ago.

Hey, that's what my Mom called me when I was born! Aww, what a treasure trove!  Now let's bury it!

Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 23, 2019, 01:21:26 PM
...Aww, what a treasure trove!  Now let's bury it!

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/kaq6GnxDlJaBq/giphy.gif)

Quote from: bb-15 on Oct 23, 2019, 02:16:48 AM
** "How long has Ridley held this notion of who the Space Jockey really is?"

* It seems Ridley's thoughts about the Space Jockeys began to form after 1997 and before 1999.
- "Alien Resurrection" was released in 1997. In the DVD commentary from 1999 Scott shared his thoughts.

QuoteIn the director commentary on the 20th Anniversary Alien DVD (released in 1999) Ridley revealed his larger plan for these beasts:

"I always wanted to go back and make an Alien 5 or 6, where we find out where they came from and go there and answer the question, "who are they." Mars is too close so they can't be gods of war, but the theory was, in my head was, this was an aircraft carrier, a battlewagon of a civilisation, and the eggs were a cargo which were essentially weapons. So right, like a large form of bacteriological stroke bio-mechanoid warfare..."

https://io9.gizmodo.com/everything-we-know-about-ridley-scotts-space-jockeys-5879560

Mentioning an "Alien 5" indicates Scott was interested in going back to the Alien franchise after "Alien 4". Then he began to form his ideas about the Space Jockeys.

These concepts from the above quote are in "Prometheus" but there is a lot more about the Space Jockeys/Engineers in that film.

* Enter, Jon Spaihts; 

QuoteBy July 2009, Scott was contracted to direct the film, and screenwriter Jon Spaihts was hired to write the script based on his pitched idea for a direct Alien prequel. With the director and writer in place, and pleased with Spaihts's pitch,...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_(2012_film)#Development

- July 2009 is another point in the development timeline.

- Here is an interview where Spaihts discusses some of his basic principles about the Engineers.

QuoteGiven the age of the wreck as it's characterized in the first Alien movie, my first thought was that these ancient giants must have been the von Daniken‑style aliens who some believe helped to shape ancient civilizations, and raise our early monuments, and, perhaps, even to shape the development of the species itself.
I imagined them as the Engineers who fomented sentient life on earth and then schooled that life into their own image, both cognitively and physically. I suppose the closing idea was that that elephantine alien face of the space jockey was merely a mask. Underneath it, to our astonishment, it would be revealed that they looked like us. Or, perhaps more accurately, that we looked like them.

https://gointothestory.blcklst.com/interview-part-1-jon-spaihts-5cf713ab14c4

- Spaihts established the Space Jockeys as humanoid under a mask/(suit), I assume in his 2009 pitch.
Scott accepted those ideas.
- Importantly, Scott was aware of preproduction artwork for "Alien" which had a space suit idea.
But they weren't fully formed as the definitive view of the Space Jockey until much later.

- The timeline that I have for Ridley bringing up the suit for the Space Jockey idea publicity was in an interview for "Prometheus" very soon before 1/26/12.
Scott said at that time.

Quotewho is that, inside that [Space Jockey] suit? That wasn't a skeleton, that was a suit.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5879560/everything-we-know-about-ridley-scotts-space-jockeys

- But Spaihts had come up with this idea for the "Alien" prequel in 2009. Ridley it seems accepted this Spaihts' Space Jockey idea after hearing it from Spaihts.

* Ridley added more of his views about the Space Jockeys.
Once the script writing was taken away from Spaihts and given to Lindelof, then Scott had more control of the script.
- He took things out. From Lindelof;

QuoteAll these ideas where on the table, and yes, there were drafts that were more explicitly spelled out. I think Ridley's instinct kept being to pull back, and I would say to him, 'Ridley, I'm still eating shit a year after Lost is over for all the things we didnt directly spell out - are you sure you want to do this?' And he said, 'I would rather have people fighting about it and not know, then spell it out, that's just more interesting to me.'

http://diymag.com/archive/a-long-prometheus-discussion-with-writer-damon-lindelof (http://diymag.com/archive/a-long-prometheus-discussion-with-writer-damon-lindelof)

* Ridley added things (from June 2012).

Quotethey are dark angels. If you look at [John Milton's] Paradise Lost,...

Fandango: That is our planet, right?
RS: No, it doesn't have to be. That could be anywhere.

If you parallel that idea with other sacrificial elements in history – which are clearly illustrated with the Mayans and the Incas – he would live for one year as a prince, and at the end of that year, he would be taken and donated to the gods

https://www.fandango.com/movie-news/interview-sir-ridley-scott-explains-prometheus-explores-our-past-and-teases-future-alien-stories-716238

Ridley saw the Space Jockeys as godlike beings who seeded life throughout the galaxy. He connected the Engineer culture with ancient earth civilizations who had human sacrifice as part of their rituals.

;)

Really good contribution to the topic.  Thanks for that.

Quote from: bb-15 on Oct 23, 2019, 02:16:48 AM
Ridley saw the Space Jockeys as godlike beings who seeded life throughout the galaxy. He connected the Engineer culture with ancient earth civilizations who had human sacrifice as part of their rituals.

;)

---

I love this. A world lost in time. A long forgotten ancient culture from the stars. Sacrifice & Death might be a crucial part of their religion, and everything that comes after that; literally life after death. They are like skywalkers, wise monks from beyond our sun, space seeders if you prefer. I actually dig the shamanic vibe whatsoever.  8)

---

So Engineers, by coincidence or deliberately, are like an earthly equivalent of a God form a theological doctrine called Pandeism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandeism): the creator deity became the universe and ceased to exist as a separate and conscious entity. In the case of the Engineers, they become the life of a planet and ceased to exist as a separate and conscious entity.

---

The Engineer is, from a certain point of view, like a dying-and-rising deity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying-and-rising_deity#cite_note-LeemingG-1). Adonis, Marduk, Osiris and even Jesus Christ; they all have the following in common: sacred rites, death and resurrection. A fictional version of Palenque's sarcophagus, representing King Pakal, can be seeing in Prometheus. Of course it is intended to represent an Engineer in his iconic telescope-like device, in the spirit of ancient aliens theories. However, in reality the central image is that of a cruciform world tree. Pakal is climbing in order to reach the realm of the dead. The King is also resting in a funerary serpent, and below you can find the Mayan underworld. Death and resurrection.


From a symbolic point of view the Engineer at the beginning of Prometheus died, but then he has risen and returned to life in the form of humans.

Elizabeth Shaw: It is us, it is everything.

---

There is an uncanny parallel between Prometheus the last two Alien movies. It must be just coincidence, but it is still fun to point it out.

At the start of Prometheus: you have the Engineer sacrificing himself for a greater good: the creation of life on a planet, possibly Earth.

The Aftermath of that: The creation of the Engineers achieved great scientific and technological advances. In particular, large-scale space travel and robotics. However, a synthetic clone of mankind use their deadly biological weapon against them, and from the ashes a new monster is created.

At the end of Alien 3: you have Ripley sacrificing her life for a greater good: saving humanity from the Alien.

The Aftermath of that: A human-xenomorph hybrid clone is created from Ripley, and the Alien species is resurrected culminating into an abomination.


In ancient mythologies, the ouroboros symbolizes the eternal cycle of things, also the eternal effort, the eternal struggle or the useless effort, since the cycle begins again despite the actions to prevent it.

---

---

To bad that scene was brought to us by spontaneously exploding jockey head. 

Nice theorizing Jonesy, especially like alien ouroboros pic and interpretation.

^ Glad you liked  :) I love to pretend that I write essays. I only play of course  ;D

I always enjoy reading your stuff, but I empathize with Kimarhi. lol

Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Nov 10, 2019, 09:20:25 AM
I always enjoy reading your stuff, but I empathize with Kimarhi. lol

So...you a' not enjoying the joa'ney, my deaw sista'. uh?

Spoiler

;D

[close]

Haha, yes I am.

If i was a betting man, i bet we haven't even seen the final definition of space jockey or engineer. Ridley bounces around on ideas.

I certainly hope so.

Watching The Orville. Reminded me of the Jockey.
Imagine something like this.
I think I prefer the Engineers we got.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/orville/images/e/e4/Tharl.jpg)

I wanted something biomechanical, with digitigrade legs and very long arms, with no eyes, only sockets, and a fleshy translucent skin.

A one-legged space chicken! Buck-buck-kaw!

Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 24, 2020, 04:42:11 AM
I wanted something biomechanical, with digitigrade legs and very long arms, with no eyes, only sockets, and a fleshy translucent skin.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5f/7f/3f/5f7f3f5074ed0cf5d314365f612d7dc2.jpg)

Quote from: Kimarhi on Nov 07, 2019, 03:50:32 AMspontaneously exploding jockey head

That happened. I forgot.

When I think in a real Space Jockey, I am actually thinking on this:

---

Similarly, I imagine the Jockey's xeno-offspring be more like this:

---

I mean.. Do people really think that an Space Jockey would have skin ??? That's like not understanding the concept, pretty much like when people sometimes take in a very literal way the genetic traits inherited from a host in the Alien. I'd say it's even hard to conclude that the Space Jockey had legs. I've even come to think of something surreal, such as the living vortex or fractal-like creature from the movie Annihilation. A really otherworldly entity capable of manipulating matter on the atomic scale and creating complex forms of artificial life. Or even a life form capable of manipulating the space-time itself. It may sound like God-like powers, but still cool in my opinion.  8)

I had a crazy thought one time that at the conclusion of the third prequel, humanity is somehow punished (rather than annihilated ) by some atomic particle freeze time warp retro fit zap ray thing from the Heavens onto Earth and sets all our technology back 1979 style to how it looks in Alien without anyone realising, ironing out a crease..possibly

Awful idea.

Be great for a certain type of continuity 😄

I don't think she agrees.  Not at all.

~There is nothing in the desert
&
no man needs nothing~

Every time I read those quotes I do it with David's voice in my head. Thank you  :)

I require nothing sometimes.

After first seeing Alien '79 my concept of the Space Jockey was exactly what we saw in the film. IOW rather than trying to extract him and imagining a body and legs, I thought the chair and telescope-thing were all him. I thought he was "grown" (or maybe "engineered" is the better word) along with the ship, as they were "constructed" at the same time.

I also like the mutated Guild Navigator in Lynch's Dune. I thought maybe there was something similar going on there. The Navigators gradually mutate into their roles as pilots of the ship; whereas the Space Jockeys' physicality is always as dictated by their roles as crew members - they have no other purpose in life but to serve the ship.

Hmmm... reminds me of Davey Jones crew from Pirates of the Carribean; part of the crew... part of the ship...

TC

I wonder what a jockey-burster would look like if his body was the ship.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 20, 2020, 07:42:11 AM
I wonder what a jockey-burster would look like if his body was the ship.

(https://i.imgur.com/esGItgm.jpg)

Quote from: TC on Feb 20, 2020, 06:51:07 AM
After first seeing Alien '79 my concept of the Space Jockey was exactly what we saw in the film. IOW rather than trying to extract him and imagining a body and legs, I thought the chair and telescope-thing were all him. I thought he was "grown" (or maybe "engineered" is the better word) along with the ship, as they were "constructed" at the same time.

That's the route I actually quite like and come back to a lot. In my mind, there's other little human sized creatures that go around doing other tasks and duties on the ship, supplementing the pilot.

Dune's already used the idea, so I ultimately prefer:
(https://i.imgur.com/x7Whzuf.jpg)

Solid concept and way better than what we actually have as canon, unfortunately. But I still don't rule out the idea of ​​the biomechanical pilot that is part of the machinery. The navigation device and the Jockey as one and the same. Pure symbiosis. I love it. I also dig Corporal's idea about drones or workers designed to assist the Ship & pilot when is required. Something like the androids, but with Giger's philosophy in mind.

I prefer the idea of an entity being able to physically and mentally join such a structure but also retain enough individuality to part from it if required, so it is simple as possible without any direct analogue to Dune: 

(https://i.imgur.com/R55Gihd.jpg)

As much as I prefer the eternal slave angle of it being grown into the chair, it getting impregnated makes more sense if it was a suited creature that had mobility. What with that big trunk in the way and all.

Unless of course it was infected via spore.

Quote from: Huggs on Feb 21, 2020, 01:25:21 AM
it getting impregnated makes more sense if it was a suited creature that had mobility. What with that big trunk in the way and all.

Unless of course it was infected via spore.

I'd go along with that.

Quote from: Huggs on Feb 21, 2020, 01:25:21 AM
As much as I prefer the eternal slave angle of it being grown into the chair, it getting impregnated makes more sense if it was a suited creature that had mobility. What with that big trunk in the way and all.

Unless of course it was infected via spore.

Yes. Not every victim of the face-hugger is going to have the convenient anatomy of a human head for it to wrap itself around (maybe a bit too convenient, in the movie?). So with no orifice available, it could be that the "egg" that's being inserted is more like a little maggot that can burrow its way into the host on its own. Yeah... icky.

And as Cpl Hicks and Immortan Jonesy have said, I too think there is something to mine in the parallel between drones (such as the xenos) as tools to their creators, the Space Jockeys; and robots (such as Ash) as tools to their creators, the humans.

How are the xenos tools? In the movie they have no purpose other than reproduction of their species (just like all other life we know of on Earth), but delving further down the rabbit hole of my imagination, I see them as DNA harvesters. Each one of the species they prey on gets sampled for its genetic information and the data stored for later use by their masters, the SJs. What use might that be? Who knows, maybe they are just inveterate galactic collectors...

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/2/2b/The_Collector_Tapped_Out.png/revision/latest?cb=20150813224645)

... or is there some other agenda?

TC

Plagarius Praepotens, so no orifice necessary. Far as I'm concerned the Alien XX121 itself's responsible for the extinction of the Gods, explaining the incomprehensible nature of the Derelict and Pilot appearing connected, and the area itself altering reality, simply put the XX121's Alien to life itself.

The problem is that we've had media saying it's one thing or another. I think it can be both.

There was spore delivery as far back as Gibson's Alien 3. Not to mention, I never understood how an egg implanted in the esophagus winds up in the side of the chest. It would either go into the stomach or the lungs. And that would create noticeable distress. Although the stomach may work from a parasitic standpoint. The victim wakes up thirsty and starving, and unknowingly feeds the embryo by consuming large amounts of nutrition.

Resurrection of course, showed the chestburster climbing up through the esophagus. But it's resurrection, so you know, grain of salt. Spores would allow the alien tissue to pass through human biological structures, like we saw with ledward. As a method of delivery, it's superior. But I still think there's room for both direct embryo/egg implantation and spore delivery. Just like there's regular and queen facehuggers. The sneaky little b@$tards are just full of surprises. And I think possibly capable of being able to determine the method of delivery, given the particular circumstances and needs of the species.

Do you think the Hammerpede was laying something in Milburn before it was disturbed?
Maybe it's offspring would have burst out of his ass
Another off screen opportunity to explore

Quote from: David Weyland on Feb 24, 2020, 01:17:54 AM
Do you think the Hammerpede was laying something in Milburn before it was disturbed?
Maybe it's offspring would have burst out of his ass
Another off screen opportunity to explore

Nah.  Just eating.

It's a Neomorph or a Neomorphic thing without any interactions with sexual organs so, absolutely not. As for the Alien, any other answer but Plagarius Praepotens is incorrect.

I guess I should have made it clear, my speculations on the nature of the Space Jockeys was me following the lead from the topic of this thread.

Ridley held this notion of who the Space Jockey really is, and gave it to us in Prometheus ( i.e. they don't exist at all, they are just large humans in spacesuits).

But in the time before Prometheus, there was room for all manner of speculation. If the prequels have closed the door for you on other ideas (the judges' decision is final and no other correspondence will be entered into), that's fine by me. However, it won't stop me from ruminating on what might have been.

TC

Quote from: TC on Feb 24, 2020, 02:34:56 AM
I guess I should have made it clear, my speculations on the nature of the Space Jockeys was me following the lead from the topic of this thread.
TC

Yup. Most of my posts are with that in mind too: speculation on what might have been on regard of the Space Jockey. Even the IP is doing that with the upcoming Alien / Predator comics about original scripts before the films. But in all honesty, the Prequels work better as their own thing, despite being canon.  :P

Quote from: TC on Feb 24, 2020, 02:34:56 AM
However, it won't stop me from ruminating on what might have been.

TC

The same here  ;D

I have no trouble both enjoying the prequels and still perceiving the jockey as an otherworldly mystery when watching the original Alien.

Fair enough. However, in my case I actually get immersed into Scott's storytelling until I reach Alien. Upon there, these two movies are no longer prequels but an entirely another dimention. Just my wishifull thinking of course, as they are canon without matter what I think. 

I have a theory that there's this new thing happening in sci-fi/fantasy that is a fusion of reboot and alternate universe stories: Where in the past reboot was a dirty word and the one-true canon was all important, we are now getting used to the concept of different versions of the same story co-existing.

In fact, this phenomena has gotten to the point where actual plots about reboots as alternate universes have appeared (e.g. Into the Spider-verse, Crisis on Infinite Earths).

But even prior to this TV shows like Fringe, The Man in the High Castle, Counterpart, as well as movies like the JJ Abrams Star Trek reboot, the rapidity of Spider-man turnovers (Maguire/Garfield/Holland), and reboots that ignore unwanted sequels (Halloween, Terminator), as well as one particularly powerful movie franchise that rewrites itself (Avengers Endgame); these have all had the effect of softening us up to accept "retellings" as legitimate entries.

IOW, canon just ain't what it used to be.

Just a theory  ;)

TC

Perhaps you're correct but I hope not.

The thing of it is, canon was how we as fans made a story-verse credible in our minds, because this is how real life works. Another way of saying it is: canon aids suspension of disbelief.

In real life there was only one outcome to World War 2; likewise, Anne Frank really did die in Bergen-Belsen concentration camp; so naturally it follows (if we want to believe in Alien like it is real life), Ellen Ripley really did die jumping into molten lead on Fiorina 161 - there can be no other version. The one true history (what we call canon) is what gives fiction verisimilitude.

But now there's all this popular talk (going back a decade or so) about the so-called multiverse, by actual real world physicists! Suddenly it's not so silly to postulate different historical facts co-existing at the same time. Result: canon is now not so necessary to imitate reality.

It's a case of a fiction-world zeitgeist affecting audience reception.

Just more of my theory  ;)

TC

I think it is necessary, otherwise the feeling of threat and consequences, evaporates if the story's up for retconing later.

So true.

TC

Bring the madness! I say  ;D

Quote from: TC on Feb 26, 2020, 12:30:54 PM
I have a theory that there's this new thing happening in sci-fi/fantasy that is a fusion of reboot and alternate universe stories: Where in the past reboot was a dirty word and the one-true canon was all important, we are now getting used to the concept of different versions of the same story co-existing.

In fact, this phenomena has gotten to the point where actual plots about reboots as alternate universes have appeared (e.g. Into the Spider-verse, Crisis on Infinite Earths).

But even prior to this TV shows like Fringe, The Man in the High Castle, Counterpart, as well as movies like the JJ Abrams Star Trek reboot, the rapidity of Spider-man turnovers (Maguire/Garfield/Holland), and reboots that ignore unwanted sequels (Halloween, Terminator), as well as one particularly powerful movie franchise that rewrites itself (Avengers Endgame); these have all had the effect of softening us up to accept "retellings" as legitimate entries.

IOW, canon just ain't what it used to be.

Just a theory  ;)

TC

An interesting theory  :o

Actually, I can deal with it without losing my sense of direction. I mean, I know what's canon. I know it's necessary. But that doesn't deprive me of the benefits of being a geek. That is, I like the idea of alternate realities that can coexist with the original.  8)

We are already talking about multiverse at this point, which is probably not everyone's cup of tea. I am also interested in the "Stranger in a strange land" kind. This probably doesn't fit with Alien. In fact, we have no parallel universe apart from AVP to begin with. Back on topic, in a "Stranger in a strange land" tale, the characters find a way to travel from the original universe to the alternative reality. There are connections between worlds. That said, I dig the idea of the Derelict as an artifact capable of distorting reality...with all and its impossible geometry. A bridge or section of the "original universe" which is much larger inside than out. In the interior, there is a variant of the original reality.  It's similar but different.

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 27, 2020, 04:50:08 AM
...
Actually, I can deal with it without losing my sense of direction. I mean, I know what's canon. I know it's necessary. But that doesn't deprive me of the benefits of being a geek. That is, I like the idea of alternate realities that can coexist with the original.  8)
...

Aha! According to my theory (actually a hypothesis really, since it's somewhat notional and I have no way of testing it to see if it contains any truth) you are from a generation that has been raised in the era of reboots, popular science discussions on the multiverse, EU material (including fan fiction), and alternative universe stories. The result being a diminunition of the importance of canon  ;D Congrats! You may be the future of fandom!

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 27, 2020, 04:50:08 AM
.., I dig the idea of the Derelict as an artifact capable of distorting reality...with all and its impossible geometry. A bridge or section of the "original universe" which is much larger inside than out. In the interior, there is a variant of the original reality.  It's similar but different.

In another of your threads you demonstrate some "what if .." questions wrt. Alien/Predator. I sometimes do a similar thing by making notes on various story mashups (it's a fun way of generating story ideas). One of them is a mashup of Alien and Event Horizon: So, what if the derelict comes from another dimension? That would make the Space Jockeys and the xenos other dimensional beings, who do not follow the normal physical rules of our universe (at least, not while inside the derelict itself, which is more of a dimension-hopping teleportation device rather than spaceship). So human astronauts who enter the derelict travel to a kind of hallucinatory demon 'verse. Kind of H P Lovecraft-style. And of course, Alien being Alien (and Giger being Giger), what they experience there is kind of deviant and perverse... but we needn't go into that  ;D

There's some crossover there with your idea.

TC

In an alternate universe, Parker won the argument.

Quote from: FenGiddel on Feb 27, 2020, 09:56:53 PM
In an alternate universe, Parker won the argument.

And ate the something else.

I'm telling you, there was chemistry there.

Quote from: TC on Feb 27, 2020, 07:36:28 AM

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 27, 2020, 04:50:08 AM
...
Actually, I can deal with it without losing my sense of direction. I mean, I know what's canon. I know it's necessary. But that doesn't deprive me of the benefits of being a geek. That is, I like the idea of alternate realities that can coexist with the original.  8)
...

Aha! According to my theory (actually a hypothesis really, since it's somewhat notional and I have no way of testing it to see if it contains any truth) you are from a generation that has been raised in the era of reboots, popular science discussions on the multiverse, EU material (including fan fiction), and alternative universe stories. The result being a diminunition of the importance of canon  ;D Congrats! You may be the future of fandom!

TC

lol I'd say doomsday of fandom but thanks  ;D

Quote from: TC on Feb 27, 2020, 07:36:28 AM

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Feb 27, 2020, 04:50:08 AM
.., I dig the idea of the Derelict as an artifact capable of distorting reality...with all and its impossible geometry. A bridge or section of the "original universe" which is much larger inside than out. In the interior, there is a variant of the original reality.  It's similar but different.

In another of your threads you demonstrate some "what if .." questions wrt. Alien/Predator. I sometimes do a similar thing by making notes on various story mashups (it's a fun way of generating story ideas). One of them is a mashup of Alien and Event Horizon: So, what if the derelict comes from another dimension? That would make the Space Jockeys and the xenos other dimensional beings, who do not follow the normal physical rules of our universe (at least, not while inside the derelict itself, which is more of a dimension-hopping teleportation device rather than spaceship). So human astronauts who enter the derelict travel to a kind of hallucinatory demon 'verse. Kind of H P Lovecraft-style. And of course, Alien being Alien (and Giger being Giger), what they experience there is kind of deviant and perverse... but we needn't go into that  ;D

There's some crossover there with your idea.

TC

The cosmic horror was always a strong reference while crafting the classic.  :)

That baneful little storm-lashed planetoid planetoid halfway across the galaxy was a fragment of the Old Ones' homeworld, and the Alien a blood relative of the Yog-Sothoth. - Dan O'Bannon

But in all seriousness, I liked the idea of someone who compared Derelict with an Escher optical illusion in another thread. (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=63242.msg2446426#msg2446426)  8)

---

Quote from: Huggs on Feb 27, 2020, 11:57:00 PM

Quote from: FenGiddel on Feb 27, 2020, 09:56:53 PM
In an alternate universe, Parker won the argument.

And ate the something else.

I'm telling you, there was chemistry there.

(https://i.imgur.com/qHWlxGi.jpg)

Quote from: Huggs on Feb 27, 2020, 11:57:00 PM

Quote from: FenGiddel on Feb 27, 2020, 09:56:53 PM
In an alternate universe, Parker won the argument.

And ate the something else.

I'm telling you, there was chemistry there.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200229/f4576a7ef0027b8c45a0a252d09703f3.jpg)

Quote from: FenGiddel on Feb 29, 2020, 01:35:10 AM

Quote from: Huggs on Feb 27, 2020, 11:57:00 PM

Quote from: FenGiddel on Feb 27, 2020, 09:56:53 PM
In an alternate universe, Parker won the argument.

And ate the something else.

I'm telling you, there was chemistry there.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200229/f4576a7ef0027b8c45a0a252d09703f3.jpg

;D

*Spontaneous Parkergasm*

(https://i.imgur.com/hCxtyJb.jpg)

On a related note, last year I finally got the chance to watch Alien on the big screen with an audience and realized that Cotto pretty much steals the show.