I just rewatched Covenant, and the ending makes me think Walter was part of David's plan from the beginning. The way David accesses the ship with his own IC: Identification Code at the end indicates that the plan was to put colonists in David's hands.
Is this a real point or am I inferring?
Depends what you mean by "the beginning". If you mean some point during the decade before the Covenant crew arrived, I don't see how. There's no way he would have known that W-Y would continue using the same physiological form for later android iterations, let alone who might chance across his location.
I think the earliest point where we can begin to infer that he's at least opening the possibility is when he decides to cut his hair, as an obvious attempt to make it harder to distinguish between himself and Walter. Even then, I think it's likely he was just leaving as many options open as possible, waiting to see how things played out with Walter and the crew, and whether he could manipulate them in less overt ways.
He probably assumed there was another android among them.
But imo he looked kinda surprised it look like him.
David probably has skeleton key like access to the Weyland Yutani cpu mainframe. Certain keywords could initiate things as he pleased.
David uploaded into Walter rather than physically maimed himself etc
It's beyond rationale that David did all he did in less than 5 minutes to pass as Walter.
You can tell by the cut on Walter's cheek during the end scene of their fight-I believe Walter succumbed to reign in hell- When back aboard the Covenant the film tries to emphasise this identical cut on 'Walter's' face with the stapling of the cheek scar scene with Daniels and remains prominent visually with the stitches for the remainder of the Motion Picture
The Title of the film in my view is not about the ship but the Covenant, the agreement if you will between the two androids.
Necronoir and Baron have nailed it. David Weyland is bringing some strong-ish headcanon, but ultimately that's what it is.
Quote from: David Weyland on Jul 29, 2021, 08:22:24 AM
You can tell by the cut on Walter's cheek during the end scene of their fight-I believe Walter succumbed to reign in hell- When back aboard the Covenant the film tries to emphasise this identical cut on 'Walter's' face with the stapling of the cheek scar scene with Daniels and remains prominent visually with the stitches for the remainder of the Motion Picture
I took that the other way. Walter has regeneration whereas David doesn't; being an older model. The fact that he needs stitches and staples shows that it's
not Walter.
If he could regenerate then why didn't his hand regrow?
The whole scar thing is so visually prominent except I accept it's a missed cue
I just find it breaks believability that he killed Walter, changed clothes, cut off his hand and cut his face up( Even though nothing was cut until the fight scene so nobody saw Walters cut scar- So he didn't have to do that but if he did then why? ) & swallowed the embryos
Sorry but for me no
Quote from: David Weyland on Jul 29, 2021, 08:22:24 AM
David probably has skeleton key like access to the Weyland Yutani cpu mainframe. Certain keywords could initiate things as he pleased.
David uploaded into Walter rather than physically maimed himself etc
It's beyond rationale that David did all he did in less than 5 minutes to pass as Walter.
You can tell by the cut on Walter's cheek during the end scene of their fight-I believe Walter succumbed to reign in hell- When back aboard the Covenant the film tries to emphasise this identical cut on 'Walter's' face with the stapling of the cheek scar scene with Daniels and remains prominent visually with the stitches for the remainder of the Motion Picture
The Title of the film in my view is not about the ship but the Covenant, the agreement if you will between the two androids.
Quote from: David Weyland on Jul 29, 2021, 02:24:15 PM
If he could regenerate then why didn't his hand regrow?
There's a difference between mending what's there but damaged and growing a new hand from scratch.
I don't dispute it
It just breaks logic and what you visually see on screen
It's a better story if Walter switched sides or David uploaded into Walter & fits in with all this tech is evil under our noses vibe
Another thing, Daniels and Lope are shitting bricks by the beacon waiting for Tennessee
Do you really think the Xenomorph would take 20 minutes before attacking them or do you think once it saw the situation it's on the move?
It's five minutes tops between the end of the D&W fight scene and the next one
I personally think it would have been so much better to avoid the evil twin swap trope all together and just cast another actor for Walter. At the end, we would learn that David had uploaded/infected his consciousness into Walter and audiences would have been actually shocked instead of seeing it coming.
And to the placate the desire to keep Fassbender, Walter could have allowed David to sneak on the ship. Then, once the pod closes on Daniels as she is about to drift in hypersleep, to her horror, David walks out into view and stands next to Walter. David?!!!
Lose Fasbender as Walter and you lose the explicit visualization of David's own self-infatuation.
(https://miro.medium.com/max/2542/1*8iqRahH2BKOeoSJY3hbr5w.png)
The scenes with Fassbender playing off of himself are the best in the movie in my opinion. The David/Walter switcheroo may be a cliché, but that's a tradeoff I'm more than willing to make here. As it is in the film the switch isn't shocking, sure, but it is no less horrifying in its implications just because I saw it coming.
Yeah I gotta agree with Nightmare here, love those scenes.
They could've made the twist less obvious by omitting or shortening certain shots that sort of gave it away. IIRC they made it more obvious because the test screening audiences were confused. :laugh:
The ambiguity of whether he uploaded himself into Walter, or if David just simply impersonates him, probably wasn't needed. Maybe it's just an old habit to film it that way, but it is a bit of a trope. They should have just explicitly shown what happened; because the audience already knew what was gonna go down.
Yeah, that was unfortunately obvious from the moment they were both on screen together. It was always going to go down that route.
Quote from: David Weyland on Jul 29, 2021, 08:22:24 AM
David probably has skeleton key like access to the Weyland Yutani cpu mainframe. Certain keywords could initiate things as he pleased.
David uploaded into Walter rather than physically maimed himself etc
It's beyond rationale that David did all he did in less than 5 minutes to pass as Walter.
You can tell by the cut on Walter's cheek during the end scene of their fight-I believe Walter succumbed to reign in hell- When back aboard the Covenant the film tries to emphasise this identical cut on 'Walter's' face with the stapling of the cheek scar scene with Daniels and remains prominent visually with the stitches for the remainder of the Motion Picture
The Title of the film in my view is not about the ship but the Covenant, the agreement if you will between the two androids.
I am swayed by your Skeleton key idea. Weyland called David his son in Prometheus. So likely all Weyland property David can access.
The Covenant between David and Walter is intriguing. I thought the covenant was between David and the Xeno, that this Typojem god was going to be what David brought to the galaxy.
I think the plot twist can be easily seen as a classic film narrative from the old black and white days. It wasn't written completely clearly and thus we can only assume alot of stuff. I believe this was on purpose to keep us guessing with very little information to go on. Its not necessarily genius but it does its job.
But for the sake of storytelling and the ability to score a sequel, its got it's place.
But to offer up conjecture, i think that really still is Walter (not david in that body, the only take away is that Daniels alluded to a change in tone for Walter and not a really allusion that he is someone else....as they aren't twins or distant brothers,they are models of a form of inheritted programming) in there and he always had his own motivations much like the Ash models did.
Spoiler
The real shit thing for me was all Daniels had said to Walter was "will you help me build the cabin ...the cabin by the lake" and for some reason (maybe a change in script), she suddenly felt jolted that Walter has changed and immediate thought of David (someone whom she didn't know at all). There was no reason for her to justify saying he was David. No real indication that his motives had changed. It was just a sudden and disconnected reason that either was intentional or meant to steer the audience. She could have had feelings, but she might have had the same feelings with Tenneasee.
This one scene would have proved that for an instance there might be a future together but by Walter just stating at her, she immediately felt discomfort. Maybe that was the reason.
In the end, we see Walter change his voice and use his credentials. so it all went to pot anyways.
Quote from: acrediblesource on Sep 22, 2021, 07:55:22 PM
I think the plot twist can be easily seen as a classic film narrative from the old black and white days. It wasn't written completely clearly and thus we can only assume alot of stuff. I believe this was on purpose to keep us guessing with very little information to go on. Its not necessarily genius but it does its job.
But for the sake of storytelling and the ability to score a sequel, its got it's place.
But to offer up conjecture, i think that really still is Walter (not david in that body, the only take away is that Daniels alluded to a change in tone for Walter and not a really allusion that he is someone else....as they aren't twins or distant brothers,they are models of a form of inheritted programming) in there and he always had his own motivations much like the Ash models did.
Spoiler
The real shit thing for me was all Daniels had said to Walter was "will you help me build the cabin ...the cabin by the lake" and for some reason (maybe a change in script), she suddenly felt jolted that Walter has changed and immediate thought of David (someone whom she didn't know at all). There was no reason for her to justify saying he was David. No real indication that his motives had changed. It was just a sudden and disconnected reason that either was intentional or meant to steer the audience. She could have had feelings, but she might have had the same feelings with Tenneasee.
This one scene would have proved that for an instance there might be a future together but by Walter just stating at her, she immediately felt discomfort. Maybe that was the reason.
In the end, we see Walter change his voice and use his credentials. so it all went to pot anyways.
And all of that in the spoiler text is why I think it's David, not Walter. No regeneration, no memories, and a deliberate scene showing him cutting his hair to look like Walter. There's no transfer of consciousness going on, David just stole his 'brother's clothes.
Unfortunately, I think as fans, we sometimes do mental gymnastics to make things work or appear smarter than it is. I've been 100% guilty of this.
I accept the simpler David just killed Walter and mimicked him exactly and the cheat of time of what we see on screen and all the tasks that David had to do.
So be it. It's poorer for it.
However, the potential and idea of David uploading into Walter is more interesting and makes better sense.
In respect of David cutting his hair, I think his intentions although nefarious was partially to identify with and turn Walter as well as using it as a potential advantage should his intentions to get off Planet 4 are confronted.
Before that occurs David spends his time trying to persuade Walter before attempting to kill him
Regarding regeneration etc. of Walter's model. I think that only went as far as an emergency reboot.
David thought he knew exactly how to disable Walter permanently in one action. That to me was the 'update'
The film itself doesn't explicitly highlight or show Walter getting even a minor cut and it healing instantly.
I also question that final pained look back by David after killing Walter etc before running for the ship.
What was that for? Elizabeth Shaw ? All his Work ? Or maybe his own body?
But back on topic, I honestly think there was something intended whether to confuse or reinforce with That Scar that is made so visually prominent.
Thoughts on Re: If David did upload to Walter, why couldn't he recall the Cabin on the Lake?
David took over physically and could very probably mimic Walter's voice anyway (Oh yeah, remember how damaged David's voice box is in that final fight scene? Did he fix that too?)& would have all the knowledge and access of Weyland Yutani to operate as he pleased so that wasn't inherent to Walter.
In the staple the scar scene when speaking with Daniels, David replies with 'It's my duty' , something he heard Walter say earlier rather than knew from Walter's memory.
Therefore in upload, Walter's memories and personality were subjugated or wiped arrogantly as superfluous in David's view in achieving his wider aims.
Anyway all too deep silly and wishful thinking and I know the preposterous physical switch is what's presented but I'd like to think the scar was trying to hint at something.
Although he does say a lot, Ridley gave this interview in 2017 and was commentating on AI creating its own language and gave this interesting quote in relation to this idea:
'"They put two AIs together and they were communing," he said. "It already invented a f**king language!
"And they couldn't decipher what the language was so they had to switch them off. What was said and where's it gone? They could have already implemented something we don't know."
https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a844668/alien-ridley-scott-teases-whats-next-franchise/
Theres a lot of reading in here but it can't be Walter. David has the embryos inside of him, so that's the end of that debate as far as I watched it.