The SONG OF ICE AND FIRE Thread

Started by Shasvre, Apr 19, 2011, 10:36:01 PM

Author
The SONG OF ICE AND FIRE Thread (Read 449,727 times)

Voodoo Magic

Quote from: kwisatz on May 17, 2019, 01:52:25 PM
Quote from: The Kurgan on May 17, 2019, 07:24:51 AM
Quote from: kwisatz on May 17, 2019, 01:23:16 AM
Lel, just watched Ep5 and i don't get the fuss honestly.

This is a freakin fantasy entertainment show from the getgo and not Crime and Punishment. They inserted a halfassed twist with not much of a psychological foundation - welcome to televised fiction thats construed to be watched by more than three people.

Are they guilty of distorting the literary source? I dont know cause i havnt read it, but i doubt the guy was aiming at becoming the next Proust with a story about dragons and penises --

Arya has a new list.


Spoiler
edit:

And to to all the build up/seed/A to D argumentation: She snaps in the heat of battle after a series of negative events experienced at short intervals. Thats what snapping is. Plus she has some type of hereditary predisposition(?) Plus were in a freakin fantasy environment. Hell in that moment she might even share minds with that killermachine shes riding, otherwise i wouldnt know how shes controlling that thing anyway. I think thats all the kitchen psychology/fanatasy setting motivation i need on this level --
[close]

Glad it worked for you.

Don't get why it not beeing Proust or Dostojewski or having fantasy elements automatically absolves from anything though.


Spoiler
Its just not the case of there not being anything to back her actions up though. Heres a woman who basically lost all of her attachment figures over the course of a couple of days (Jorah, Jon, Meliwhatever, Tyrion, Varys, another dragon [child] etcetc), which kinda is just another repetition of her losing her former husband [who repeatedly raped her] and her baby and her ability to become pregnant again (?) in one strike, which kinda is just another repetition of her childhood situation as a whole where she basically lost everyone except a sadistic brother abusing her for all kinds of shit, brainwashing her all day to become the whore of a stranger for life; therefore eternally refused from childhood on to develop any kind of self confidence which would be the psychological basis to cope with situations such as where all important persons in your life suddenly begin to deflect your personality for whatever reason and start casting doubt on your one and only life goal to become a just ruler which probably is the only corner stone of your fragmented personality that kept you only just from immediately sliding your wrist at the age of 10 etcetcetc, off the top of my head could easily go on ---

This always struggling, convergin on full depravation persona snaps in the heat of battle after riding a goddamn weapon of mass destruction for minutes, with the symbol of her botched life right on front her, eternally mocking and a city full of strangers who did nothing and probably celebrated when her family was wiped out the main tragic event that has shaped a traumatised psyche in large part --. I consider it possible.

And yea the writing is rushed, feels rushed nonetheless, but if really wanna avoid this stop watching mainstream television, In Search of Lost Time is waiting for you.
[close]

Spoiler
[close]

I appreciate your effort to back up her snap, but to me, this is an example of a desire to make something work, versus what works. If they actually conveyed prior more of the psychological strife your colorfully describing (I love your adjectives), the leap to mass murdering women and children not in a flash of rage, but in a long duration of genocide, would no longer be a leap in logic and in character, but a deliciously horrible turn of events in the Game Of Thrones television series. If you don't, their new Red Wedding moment becomes a wtf, which is exactly what occurred.

kwisatz

kwisatz

#4591
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 17, 2019, 03:00:45 PM
Quote from: kwisatz on May 17, 2019, 01:52:25 PM
Quote from: The Kurgan on May 17, 2019, 07:24:51 AM
Quote from: kwisatz on May 17, 2019, 01:23:16 AM
Lel, just watched Ep5 and i don't get the fuss honestly.

This is a freakin fantasy entertainment show from the getgo and not Crime and Punishment. They inserted a halfassed twist with not much of a psychological foundation - welcome to televised fiction thats construed to be watched by more than three people.

Are they guilty of distorting the literary source? I dont know cause i havnt read it, but i doubt the guy was aiming at becoming the next Proust with a story about dragons and penises --

Arya has a new list.


Spoiler
edit:

And to to all the build up/seed/A to D argumentation: She snaps in the heat of battle after a series of negative events experienced at short intervals. Thats what snapping is. Plus she has some type of hereditary predisposition(?) Plus were in a freakin fantasy environment. Hell in that moment she might even share minds with that killermachine shes riding, otherwise i wouldnt know how shes controlling that thing anyway. I think thats all the kitchen psychology/fanatasy setting motivation i need on this level --
[close]

Glad it worked for you.

Don't get why it not beeing Proust or Dostojewski or having fantasy elements automatically absolves from anything though.


Spoiler
Its just not the case of there not being anything to back her actions up though. Heres a woman who basically lost all of her attachment figures over the course of a couple of days (Jorah, Jon, Meliwhatever, Tyrion, Varys, another dragon [child] etcetc), which kinda is just another repetition of her losing her former husband [who repeatedly raped her] and her baby and her ability to become pregnant again (?) in one strike, which kinda is just another repetition of her childhood situation as a whole where she basically lost everyone except a sadistic brother abusing her for all kinds of shit, brainwashing her all day to become the whore of a stranger for life; therefore eternally refused from childhood on to develop any kind of self confidence which would be the psychological basis to cope with situations such as where all important persons in your life suddenly begin to deflect your personality for whatever reason and start casting doubt on your one and only life goal to become a just ruler which probably is the only corner stone of your fragmented personality that kept you only just from immediately sliding your wrist at the age of 10 etcetcetc, off the top of my head could easily go on ---

This always struggling, convergin on full depravation persona snaps in the heat of battle after riding a goddamn weapon of mass destruction for minutes, with the symbol of her botched life right on front her, eternally mocking and a city full of strangers who did nothing and probably celebrated when her family was wiped out the main tragic event that has shaped a traumatised psyche in large part --. I consider it possible.

And yea the writing is rushed, feels rushed nonetheless, but if really wanna avoid this stop watching mainstream television, In Search of Lost Time is waiting for you.
[close]

Spoiler
[close]

I appreciate your effort to back up her snap, but to me, this is an example of a desire to make something work, versus what works. If they actually conveyed prior more of the psychological strife your colorfully describing (I love your adjectives), the leap to mass murdering women and children not in a flash of rage, but in a long duration of genocide, would no longer be a leap in logic and in character, but a deliciously horrible turn of events in the Game Of Thrones television series. If you don't, their new Red Wedding moment becomes a wtf, which is exactly what occurred.


Yea look, i don't want to force my view on things here on anyone. If the snap doesn't work for you in the slightest, then that's just the case and I actually feel a bit sorry for you that this may or may not ruin (or ruin in parts) a former beloved TV show. I think it would for me too.


Spoiler
The only thing I just don't get is that majority of people are so dead set on ruling out even the tiniest possibility of a snap here. With all the things I listed above about Danys general character development that baffles me quite a bit I must admit. Most of those things are events openly depicted throughout the series, I mean they are not subtext or anything (like for example it is the case with Michael Corleone, where I consider it not that obvious why he actually transforms from average citizen to murderous mobster; it's there of course but it's definitely more subliminal; funnily enough no one seems to question this transformation but I guess Godfather is just too established at this point).

Making Danys personality deficits that are springing from her in more than one way problematic path through life even more obvious would verge on the brink of spoon feeding in my eyes.

Again I think i just see where they wanted to go (a bit dilettantish maybe, but one needs to keep in mind they are forced to churn out the writing in quite a limited time span): this is a new psychological situation for her where everything she build up for herself is suddenly come crashing down (her friends, her love, her life goal) internally triggering all the traumatizing events she previously experienced in her life and then she snaps in the heat of battle, I really don't see that much of a motivational problem here. People say she gone through crisis before and didn't turn into mass murdering mode but back before she always had lots of people supporting her around, she was more or less constantly winning with minor setbacks but from a psychological viewpoint continuously embedded  in a personal environment that was providing her with positive feedback, even admiration. She came from shit and didnt need much at the start, but when all things she established and leaned on all of a sudden deteriorated finally putting even her main life goal in question (the main personality trait i speculated brought her through childhood, the Jamie to her Tyrion, becoming a just ruler) a deficient but tendential sympathetic framework collapsed leading into sheer madness.

Maybe the mass murdering of civilians is the main problem here, I don't know -- but when you snap you snap. Madness means abnormal, could mean even abhorrent behavior, from a certain point onwards description in logical/rational terms is just no longer possible or the preferential method of analysis. I tried to describe how she potentially got to the point of snapping (it may be to a degree amateurishly portrayed, it may be ham-fisted in parts no doubt, but so is GoT psychology and lets be honest 90 percent of televised fiction, even in HBOs otherwise impressive catalogue) – from there on Madness is happening, Chaos reigns, Kurtz is advancing. You don't want that kind madness in your fictional work ok, but saying the general portrayal of it or even the mere theoretical possibility of its fictional existence is to be completely ruled out in this case – that's what i would emphatically oppose.
[close]

LastSonofKrypton

Behold, and tremble before Varya Starkspider!!!!!


Biomechanoid

Quote from: kwisatz on May 17, 2019, 05:32:03 PM
Spoiler
The only thing I just don't get is that majority of people are so dead set on ruling out even the tiniest possibility of a snap here. With all the things I listed above about Danys general character development that baffles me quite a bit I must admit. Most of those things are events openly depicted throughout the series, I mean they are not subtext or anything (like for example it is the case with Michael Corleone, where I consider it not that obvious why he actually transforms from average citizen to murderous mobster; it's there of course but it's definitely more subliminal; funnily enough no one seems to question this transformation but I guess Godfather is just too established at this point).
[close]

Referencing back to a point I made earlier, some  view "Game of Thrones" as "My Game of Thrones". Many just did not envision a character snapping in their version of My Game of Thrones.

There were signs throughout the series that Dany was heading towards madsville which many viewers, bloggers describing them anywhere from questionable to subtle to out and out red flags, that led them to believe she was descending from savior to murdering mad queen well before episode 5 existed.

Some call it a token shot or obligatory cheap plot device, but they did show her at the moment she snapped. Her facial expression displayed an eruption of rage moments before she launched her hellcat dive bomb.

Regarding the range of signs, I am partial to subtle type signs over out and out red flags. One of my favorite since you mention The Godfather is the subtle sign of Michael Corleone waiting outside the hospital with a family friend, fending off potential assassins.

The family friend was so nervous he couldn't light his cigarette, his hands were shaking so much. Michael lit the cigarette for him and discovered his hand was calm. First viewing that sign might be hardly noticed or even forgotten. But second and further viewings it becomes obvious how important that subtle sign marked his transition.

Local Trouble

I'm still convinced that, for all his ruthlessness, Tywin Lannister would have made the best king of Westeros.

The Old One

The Old One

#4595


When the series retained excellent writing, the Game Of Thrones or My Game Of Thrones, irrelevant.
To quote the man himself.

"But now, madness, madness and stupidity."

BigDaddyJohn

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 17, 2019, 06:18:41 PM
I'm still convinced that, for all his ruthlessness, Tywin Lannister would have made the best king of Westeros.

He was in a way, for a while.

Biomechanoid

Biomechanoid

#4597
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 17, 2019, 06:18:41 PM
I'm still convinced that, for all his ruthlessness, Tywin Lannister would have made the best king of Westeros.

Charles Dance is one of my favorite actors so I hated to see his character end. Through process of elimination, by default Tyrion is now officially the tallest Lannister.

Quote from: The Old One on May 17, 2019, 06:24:16 PM
When the series retained excellent writing, the Game Of Thrones or My Game Of Thrones, irrelevant.

There's that, but it's not impossible for both bad writing and the concept of My Game of Thrones to exist simultaneously. I wasn't suggesting that My Game of Thrones is the remedy for bad writing. My Game of Thrones is a separate aspect of the viewer mindset that has no bearing on the quality of writing.

Local Trouble

I like to imagine a "what if" scenario in which Tywin took Arya with him instead of leaving her at Harrenhal.

Voodoo Magic

Quote from: kwisatz on May 17, 2019, 05:32:03 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 17, 2019, 03:00:45 PM
Quote from: kwisatz on May 17, 2019, 01:52:25 PM
Quote from: The Kurgan on May 17, 2019, 07:24:51 AM
Quote from: kwisatz on May 17, 2019, 01:23:16 AM
Lel, just watched Ep5 and i don't get the fuss honestly.

This is a freakin fantasy entertainment show from the getgo and not Crime and Punishment. They inserted a halfassed twist with not much of a psychological foundation - welcome to televised fiction thats construed to be watched by more than three people.

Are they guilty of distorting the literary source? I dont know cause i havnt read it, but i doubt the guy was aiming at becoming the next Proust with a story about dragons and penises --

Arya has a new list.


Spoiler
edit:

And to to all the build up/seed/A to D argumentation: She snaps in the heat of battle after a series of negative events experienced at short intervals. Thats what snapping is. Plus she has some type of hereditary predisposition(?) Plus were in a freakin fantasy environment. Hell in that moment she might even share minds with that killermachine shes riding, otherwise i wouldnt know how shes controlling that thing anyway. I think thats all the kitchen psychology/fanatasy setting motivation i need on this level --
[close]

Glad it worked for you.

Don't get why it not beeing Proust or Dostojewski or having fantasy elements automatically absolves from anything though.


Spoiler
Its just not the case of there not being anything to back her actions up though. Heres a woman who basically lost all of her attachment figures over the course of a couple of days (Jorah, Jon, Meliwhatever, Tyrion, Varys, another dragon [child] etcetc), which kinda is just another repetition of her losing her former husband [who repeatedly raped her] and her baby and her ability to become pregnant again (?) in one strike, which kinda is just another repetition of her childhood situation as a whole where she basically lost everyone except a sadistic brother abusing her for all kinds of shit, brainwashing her all day to become the whore of a stranger for life; therefore eternally refused from childhood on to develop any kind of self confidence which would be the psychological basis to cope with situations such as where all important persons in your life suddenly begin to deflect your personality for whatever reason and start casting doubt on your one and only life goal to become a just ruler which probably is the only corner stone of your fragmented personality that kept you only just from immediately sliding your wrist at the age of 10 etcetcetc, off the top of my head could easily go on ---

This always struggling, convergin on full depravation persona snaps in the heat of battle after riding a goddamn weapon of mass destruction for minutes, with the symbol of her botched life right on front her, eternally mocking and a city full of strangers who did nothing and probably celebrated when her family was wiped out the main tragic event that has shaped a traumatised psyche in large part --. I consider it possible.

And yea the writing is rushed, feels rushed nonetheless, but if really wanna avoid this stop watching mainstream television, In Search of Lost Time is waiting for you.
[close]

Spoiler
[close]

I appreciate your effort to back up her snap, but to me, this is an example of a desire to make something work, versus what works. If they actually conveyed prior more of the psychological strife your colorfully describing (I love your adjectives), the leap to mass murdering women and children not in a flash of rage, but in a long duration of genocide, would no longer be a leap in logic and in character, but a deliciously horrible turn of events in the Game Of Thrones television series. If you don't, their new Red Wedding moment becomes a wtf, which is exactly what occurred.


Yea look, i don't want to force my view on things here on anyone. If the snap doesn't work for you in the slightest, then that's just the case and I actually feel a bit sorry for you that this may or may not ruin (or ruin in parts) a former beloved TV show. I think it would for me too.


Spoiler

The only thing I just don't get is that majority of people are so dead set on ruling out even the tiniest possibility of a snap here. With all the things I listed above about Danys general character development that baffles me quite a bit I must admit. Most of those things are events openly depicted throughout the series, I mean they are not subtext or anything (like for example it is the case with Michael Corleone, where I consider it not that obvious why he actually transforms from average citizen to murderous mobster; it's there of course but it's definitely more subliminal; funnily enough no one seems to question this transformation but I guess Godfather is just too established at this point).

Making Danys personality deficits that are springing from her in more than one way problematic path through life even more obvious would verge on the brink of spoon feeding in my eyes.

Again I think i just see where they wanted to go (a bit dilettantish maybe, but one needs to keep in mind they are forced to churn out the writing in quite a limited time span): this is a new psychological situation for her where everything she build up for herself is suddenly come crashing down (her friends, her love, her life goal) internally triggering all the traumatizing events she previously experienced in her life and then she snaps in the heat of battle, I really don't see that much of a motivational problem here. People say she gone through crisis before and didn't turn into mass murdering mode but back before she always had lots of people supporting her around, she was more or less constantly winning with minor setbacks but from a psychological viewpoint continuously embedded  in a personal environment that was providing her with positive feedback, even admiration. She came from shit and didnt need much at the start, but when all things she established and leaned on all of a sudden deteriorated finally putting even her main life goal in question (the main personality trait i speculated brought her through childhood, the Jamie to her Tyrion, becoming a just ruler) a deficient but tendential sympathetic framework collapsed leading into sheer madness.

Maybe the mass murdering of civilians is the main problem here, I don't know -- but when you snap you snap. Madness means abnormal, could mean even abhorrent behavior, from a certain point onwards description in logical/rational terms is just no longer possible or the preferential method of analysis. I tried to describe how she potentially got to the point of snapping (it may be to a degree amateurishly portrayed, it may be ham-fisted in parts no doubt, but so is GoT psychology and lets be honest 90 percent of televised fiction, even in HBOs otherwise impressive catalogue) – from there on Madness is happening, Chaos reigns, Kurtz is advancing. You don't want that kind madness in your fictional work ok, but saying the general portrayal of it or even the mere theoretical possibility of its fictional existence is to be completely ruled out in this case – that's what i would emphatically oppose.
[close]

Spoiler
I think you're ultimately answering your question by bringing up Michael Corleone. His transformation from an emotionless and calculated war hero, to the need to protect his father and family, to killing Virgil to save his Dad which started a chain of falling dominos, to starting a new life in Sicily, to falling in love and getting married, only for his wife to be killed as revenge for Virgil's death, to coming back to America and more of his family dies, to eventually don of the Corleone Family at the end of is a gradual, well plotted transformation. Think of a diagnal line on a chart gradually going up.

Now think of Daenerys. If you take GoT as one large movie, for most of the story she is good. She is just. She is kind. She is the breaker of chains. Fair when she needs to be, as well as harsh when she needs to be. Sometimes emotional, but most often cool and deliberate. Marching to liberate the realms. Sure I guess there is something that can be taken as a seed there and there, but no seed is watered and the breaker of chains is still all the above, and suddenly BAM!!!!!  She's annihilating thousands of innocent women and children for 15 minutes. Women and children. That's no diagnal line on a chart to me. That is a giant defibrillator spike on a heart monitor!

If you showed me some psychological strife along the way. Night terrors. Nightmares of murder. Talking to herself in shadows. Her acting not like herself. Hearing voices. Delusions. Seeing people she killed haunt her. Ghosts of her Father or Brother taunt her. Pepper that throughout the last few seasons. Not too much, but just enough. But nope.

So we didn't get Michael Corleone here to me. We got an Anakin Skywalker transformation. That's where I'm coming from.

However, to the people who are not bothered with it, I am happy for them and truly don't want to change their minds. I don't want to even change your mind truthfully. To be honest, I am even a bit jealous of it.

Cheers! :)
[close]

kwisatz

kwisatz

#4600
Quote from: Biomechanoid on May 17, 2019, 06:17:50 PM
Referencing back to a point I made earlier, some  view "Game of Thrones" as "My Game of Thrones". Many just did not envision a character snapping in their version of My Game of Thrones.

It plays a part of course, depending on ones personality and how heavily you get attached to fictional content like that. Lately i really tend to feel for these people cause they are getting ruined huge part of their lives they depended on, so their outcropping is not something that should be ridiculed or even laughed at by folks who tend to be more above such things (I'm not implying you did these things here, don't get me wrong).

In this forum though I suspect the bigger part just being more or less pissed because poor writing happening, which I kinda won't deny is actually an ongoing thing in this show and so many others, but at the same time i really think people should just lower their expectations at this point, for the material were talking about here is for sure is not playing in Dostojewskis and even not Sopranos league.

Dany is a fantasy character who lost her whole family, growing up with an abusive sadistic brother who gets repeatedly raped mentally and physically throughout the course of the show; now this alone nearly justifies snapping in virtually every borderline situation for me, again in a dragon riding zombiecalypse depicting fantasy environment. I mean lol people, come on.

QuoteThere were signs throughout the series that Dany was heading towards madsville which many viewers, bloggers describing them anywhere from questionable to subtle to out and out red flags, that led them to believe she was descending from savior to murdering mad queen well before episode 5 existed.

Some call it a token shot or obligatory cheap plot device, but they did show her at the moment she snapped. Her facial expression displayed an eruption of rage moments before she launched her hellcat dive bomb.

Spoiler
Yea, she had the same face when Jon refused to f*** her and when walking away from Missandeis execution. She now has it in the heat of battle and can't hold back because bascially going back to righteous ruler town is no longer an option. So what started as her main positive personal trait, ruling justly, is stripped down due to her mental breakdown to its very core: just rule, no matter what. She basically has this two options at this moment considering these Westeros folks and all of her friends including her love interest will never accept her as Queen. Kill herself or proceed in a new fashion. She chose the latter
[close]

QuoteRegarding the range of signs, I am partial to subtle type signs over out and out red flags. One of my favorite since you mention The Godfather is the subtle sign of Michael Corleone waiting outside the hospital with a family friend, fending off potential assassins.

Godfather is just the celluloid King in this league of subtle characterisation. Heres a sympathetic guy who at first view out of nothing commits to these in the beginning almost heroic and later horrendous ways to protect his family but then you realise that in the film its 1945 and the guy is introduced in his very first scene wearing a (i think even highly decorated?) military uniform. Hes the only one doing so at the wedding. Hes different. And thats almost all you need to know up to a point.



Shasvre

Shasvre

#4601
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 17, 2019, 06:18:41 PMI'm still convinced that, for all his ruthlessness, Tywin Lannister would have made the best king of Westeros.

I think Renly and Margaery would have made for excellent rulers.

LastSonofKrypton

Quote from: Shasvre on May 17, 2019, 07:27:20 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 17, 2019, 06:18:41 PMI'm still convinced that, for all his ruthlessness, Tywin Lannister would have made the best king of Westeros.

I think Renly and Margaery would have made for excellent rulers.

How dare you fools overlook the brave and bold Janos Slynt!!  He has friends, powerful, important friends at court!  They will hear of this.  He will not have it, do you hear me?!  He will NOT have it!!

Voodoo Magic

Quote from: Shasvre on May 17, 2019, 07:27:20 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 17, 2019, 06:18:41 PMI'm still convinced that, for all his ruthlessness, Tywin Lannister would have made the best king of Westeros.

I think Renly and Margaery would have made for excellent rulers.

Or pre-season 8, episode 5 Daenerys because before then, that woman was clearly not depicted as a crazy psychopath killer.  :P

Local Trouble


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