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I realize this must have been done already. At least, in some capacity,.. but I felt that with some time having passed, maybe some of us have changed our minds.

Curious to see what everyone thinks.

Covenant.

I prefer Prometheus but to me they are both good films which add to the franchise in a positive way.

;)

I think both are good films but Prometheus is better in my opinion in that it greatly expanded the potential of the Alien universe. That has seemingly coalesced back into a smaller neighborhood with Covenant. Plus I really do prefer the characters from Prometheus by far.

AvP

 :laugh:

I wish I was kidding, but I'm not.  AvP does the least amount of damage to the mythos, IMO.

Well when you put it that way...  ::)

I'd much prefer the aliens and predators in Earth's ancient past than human space jockeys and the aliens being a recent creation by an android.

And I didn't even LIKE AvP!

Peter Weyland > Charles Bishop Weyland

Despite everything to do with the Alien feeling shoehorned in, Covenant is the better of the two films.

Really the best prequels to Alien are Happy Birthday David, Meet Walter, 2023 Peter Weyland TED Talk and Blade Runner.

I like Prometheus but much prefer Covenant.

Both suck, but Prometheus sucks less.

There's things I dislike in both but over all I prefer Covenant. It's just a better completely film for me. That's not to say there's not things I don't like in Prometheus, I just find it an annoying watching experience.

Covenant as a film is better structured and has better pacing than Prometheus, bar the last rushed act. But if they ever decide to do a new Prometheus cut, trimming down a lot of it, specially the dumb stuff which is very easy to take from the movie (as it's been done in many fan cuts) and including some of the deleted scenes, maybe my opinion would change.

Both the things I like and dislike in both are very different from one another, so they almost balance each other out. But as a movie, Covenant is more solid.

The best Alien Prequel is Dark Star. No doubt.

Covenant, no question. I mean there actually is our alien.

Kinda like choosing between pestilence and cholera, but i have to go with prometheus.

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 30, 2018, 06:59:56 AM
I wish I was kidding, but I'm not.  AvP does the least amount of damage to the mythos, IMO.

I can agree with that a little, though that movie caused some issues of its own, especially the second one. I am not sure which prequel I like best as I did enjoy Covenant but I find it shallow and the pacing is just off. Prometheus was too grandiose for its own good and created more questions than answers, though I still liked some things about it.

Prometheus for me. It's just more different and interesting. Alien: Covenant feels more like an Alien movie but bungles a lot of things.

My vote goes to Prometheus.  To me, it felt more original and enthusiastic.  I also enjoyed the Prometheus crew (excluding the idiots Fifield and Milburn) far more than the disposable crew in Covenant. 

It would've been great as a stand alone film in the Alien universe instead of a prequel.  Also, years from now I'll remember a lot more of the sequences in Prometheus than what was in Covenant.  I'm pretty sure this scene is the only thing I'll remember from A:C.  :laugh:

(https://muthur9000.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/tumblr_oukleb8we91t4wjzko3_r1_540.gif?w=375&h=158)

Covenant

They both have problems but I still enjoy them. But for me, Covenant is the better film.

I like both films. I have issues with Prometheus due to Milburn and Fifield, though besides that, like the film. Though, as most have mention, Covenant is the better film. Love the nihilistic tone they went with even though sacrificing Dr. Shaw and the engineers in the process.

Covenant actually improved Prometheus for me, but it's still Covenant, by a large margin
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scifimoviezone.com%2Fimageavp%2Faliencovenant214.jpg&hash=212713a6c1e810d4fe45af53e8c2a9f18d491324)

Covenant sure has a lot of love thanks to having the alien sort of front and center. Still can't help but believe a true Prometheus 2 wouldn't have been way better. Still the biggest flaw in Covenant is that the crew is totally unmissable. If there is ever a sequel I hope they do the same thing as they did in this and have Tennessee and Daniels both dead before the movie even starts.

haha oh snap, it just dawn on me.

Daniels: What did you do to her?
David: Exactly what I am going to do to you.

It was the plan from the beginning.  ;D

-
Fifield / Millburn is the worst part of Prometheus
The Alien is the least interesting thing about Covenant.

+
Great story.
David is a f**king bad guy. The best in years. Fassbender powa'.
Both are visual wonders. Ridley Scott genius I guess.
Shaw >> Daniels
I must admit to being completely charmed by the Gothic atmosphere of Covenant.

So Covenant. But i love both.

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 30, 2018, 06:59:56 AM
I wish I was kidding, but I'm not.  AvP does the least amount of damage to the mythos, IMO.

Fine, I agree somewhat but in the end disagree.
I liked the underlying idea in "AVP" about ancient aliens coming to earth who influenced human culture (such as the Predators creating ancient Mayan pyramids).
I liked that the Predators brought the Xenomorphs.

* Imo the problem in terms of mythos with "AVP" is that the pyramid is on earth.
A giant underground pyramid in Antarctica? That continent has been explored and has been surveyed by satellites including with thermal imagery and gas emissions.
- If the mythos is to be taken seriously, "Prometheus" fixes that problem by putting the pyramid/(dome) light years away from earth.

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 30, 2018, 07:26:37 AM
I'd much prefer the aliens and predators in Earth's ancient past than human space jockeys and the aliens being a recent creation by an android.

And I didn't even LIKE AvP!

Personal taste determines preferences, so it's an agree to disagree situation.

Both the Predators and the Space Jockeys came to humanity's ancient past. Both influenced ancient human cultures.
It is just that the Space Jockeys did genetic engineering by seeding planets while the Predators set up hunting safaris.
- I am more interested in the genetic engineering idea. Partly because this also happens in Star Trek and I like Trek.

- As for David and the Xenomorph, I'm OK with that because David built on the prior work of the Engineers.
The Space Jockeys created the Deacon and the Neomorph using the black goo.
David just adapted those kinds of creatures following the work of the Engineers but just altered it a bit.
As someone mentioned before on this site; it's like breeders changing bulldogs and terriers to the pit bull.

;)

QuoteA giant underground pyramid in Antarctica? That continent has been explored and has been surveyed by satellites including with thermal imagery and gas emissions.

The satellites in the film picked something up - when there was something to pick up.  Putting the films erroneous geography aside, where's the problem?

Prometheus
Overal the most interesting and impressive movie imo.

Covenant has great scenes but I like it less as a whole.
I love the opening scene in the white room, then I don't really care until the Covenant lands.
Then it's alright until they're back on the Covenant. And better again when David reveals himself.

Would be nice if we get the sequel and it's the best part in the prequel series.

Quote from: SM on May 31, 2018, 01:24:07 AM

QuoteA giant underground pyramid in Antarctica? That continent has been explored and has been surveyed by satellites including with thermal imagery and gas emissions.

The satellites in the film picked something up - when there was something to pick up.  Putting the films erroneous geography aside, where's the problem?

Wasn't the pyramid completely dormant until it woke up for its centennial hunting ritual?

Quite.

Then I don't understand bb-15's point.  ???

Nor do I.  Prometheus didn't correct that particular "problem" with AvP.

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 31, 2018, 01:59:09 AM

Quote from: SM on May 31, 2018, 01:24:07 AM

QuoteA giant underground pyramid in Antarctica? That continent has been explored and has been surveyed by satellites including with thermal imagery and gas emissions.

The satellites in the film picked something up - when there was something to pick up.  Putting the films erroneous geography aside, where's the problem?

Wasn't the pyramid completely dormant until it woke up for its centennial hunting ritual?

Yes the pyramid was dormant underneath a whaling station and it gets activated as part of the 100 years Predator hunt which goes back to the ancient Mayans (thousands of years ago).
And before Weyland's expedition no one on earth has discovered evidence of these 100 year Predator hunting parties even though every once in a while the Predators used nuclear weapons to destroy pyramids on earth when their 100 year hunting parties got out of control.
Why haven't scientists found evidence of nuclear weapons by the Predators?
It's a Kong Skull Island idea that some massive things are hidden and Godzilla is roaming the oceans.
- "AVP" works if its story is not taken seriously.

- Imo in terms of Alien mythos (and taking it more seriously) the pyramid story works better if it is light years from earth as described in "Prometheus".

;)

Didn't the government have knowledge of the predators by then?

The object of the weapons is destroy evidence when a hunt goes out of hand.  It's speculated that one did in Central America by Sebastian based on the hieroglyphics.  Temple gets vapourised and the jungle grows back in the ensuing centuries.

What is there left to find?

If the hunt goes to plan - they don't 'nuke' anything.

Is there any evidence that the predators' nukes leave radioactive fallout?

I think there were vague references at one point that Dutch had died from radiation exposure in Predator 2 that never made the film.

Assuming there was - wouldn't any fallout have decayed away to practically nothing after a few hundred years?

I would think so.  There are people living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki now.

https://gizmodo.com/why-can-people-live-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-now-but-1451250877

Quote from: bb-15 on May 31, 2018, 03:04:26 AM

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 31, 2018, 01:59:09 AM

Quote from: SM on May 31, 2018, 01:24:07 AM

QuoteA giant underground pyramid in Antarctica? That continent has been explored and has been surveyed by satellites including with thermal imagery and gas emissions.

The satellites in the film picked something up - when there was something to pick up.  Putting the films erroneous geography aside, where's the problem?

Wasn't the pyramid completely dormant until it woke up for its centennial hunting ritual?

Yes the pyramid was dormant underneath a whaling station and it gets activated as part of the 100 years Predator hunt which goes back to the ancient Mayans (thousands of years ago).
And before Weyland's expedition no one on earth has discovered evidence of these 100 year Predator hunting parties even though every once in a while the Predators used nuclear weapons to destroy pyramids on earth when their 100 year hunting parties got out of control.
Why haven't scientists found evidence of nuclear weapons by the Predators?
It's a Kong Skull Island idea that some massive things are hidden and Godzilla is roaming the oceans.
- "AVP" works if its story is not taken seriously.

- Imo in terms of Alien mythos (and taking it more seriously) the pyramid story works better if it is light years from earth as described in "Prometheus".

;)

The pyramids was one of the things that irked me the most in AVP. That predators would teach mankind anything except how to run and die was alittle too history channel for my taste. As for scientific evidence, I'm assuming that various individuals and departments within governments and militaries already have knowledge of the predators. Keye's team, Anna and Dutch's testimony, Isabelle from predators. It can't be that big of a secret at this point. And surely any information compiled by keyes was intact since it was in the van, and they had been tracking cityhunter for some time. Judging by what he said, they had a pretty good idea of what the predator was and how he operated, except for the extra vision modes.

Why weyland was apparently unaware of their existence even in AVP is beyond me. The man should have enough money and power to buy and sell anything. Surely he could've known.

It's not like they taught humanity how to build pyramids out of the goodness of their hearts though.

I'm not sure why it's a stretch that Weyland wouldn't know about Predators.  Why would he?

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 31, 2018, 05:16:39 AM
It's not like they taught humanity how to build pyramids out of the goodness of their hearts though.

True. Of course they're just taking over where the engineers left off. They only gave us life, the predators showed us what to do with it. Marketable skills come in handy. Giant triangles were big business there for awhile.

---

Quote from: SM on May 31, 2018, 05:21:45 AM
I'm not sure why it's a stretch that Weyland wouldn't know about Predators.  Why would he?

I suppose I just always saw Weyland as a powerful figure. Somebody with his wealth and authority would undoubtedly have contacts. An he just seemed like a real go-getter. Somebody out to make history. Always one to push the boundaries. I'd imagine knowledge of Alien life would be right up there with stuff he'd want to know about. I never saw him as just a rich eccentric, but more of a rule-breaking history maker, hell bent on pushing mankind forward technologically. Which is probably why I don't care for his character arc in the prequels. I'd figure him to be one attempting to dethrone the Gods, not begging them for life.

Well, perhaps my opinion of the character clouds my judgment on that score. In which case, I freely admit it's merely a fan thing. But I always wondered how somebody like him wouldn't know about them. There should've been enough evidence by then. Assuming the AVP films are to be considered linked by knowledge to any events in the other films. That is to say, the knowledge available to humans in AVP covers the events of the first 2 predator films.

I'm sure he would like to know about space aliens - but they weren't going to Antarctica expecting to find it.  Or even looking for it.

Quote from: SM on May 31, 2018, 05:42:40 AM
I'm sure he would like to know about space aliens - but they weren't going to Antarctica expecting to find it.  Or even looking for it.

Then I suppose it would be something more along the lines of acknowledgment of what they were when he sees them. It just seemed like he was as much in the dark as everybody else, which just felt (in a way) odd to me. I was glad to see him go out strong though. That's the kind of Weyland I can dig. He died throwing fire at the Gods, not begging them for mercy.

He ain't much for beggin'.

Lance Hendricksen. MVP.

The "Bring me this tea." scene is better than anything with Lance Henrikson's Weyland in AVP.

Yeah, it's hard to beat Bring Me This Tea. That's the kind of scene I had wanted in an Alien film since forever. That and an alien jumping around a flying ship.

Quote from: BishopShouldGo on May 31, 2018, 07:54:07 PM
Yeah, it's hard to beat Bring Me This Tea. That's the kind of scene I had wanted in an Alien film since forever. That and an alien jumping around a flying ship.

That and it crawling through the flames, not liking it, but not killing it really reinforces the idea that like the Isolation version, this is not a creature easily killed without exploding bullets.

Isolation doesn't count because that is just game mechanics. You are not supposed to kill it therefor you can't.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Jun 01, 2018, 12:47:55 PM
Isolation doesn't count because that is just game mechanics. You are not supposed to kill it therefor you can't.

They've also never been seen to been killed by anything other than a close range shotgun blast, immense pressure or exploding bullets.
Apart from the eggs and facehuggers which are considerably more fleshy, it's my belief they don't like the sensation of being burned but ultimately it can do little to them. This in my opinion would be the reason for the Alien in Isolation, running from fire but if you use the flamethrower too much it ultimately learns that you can't kill it- only hurt it and so it will kill you, or attempt to.

The sources I would cite would be; Alien Isolation, the molten lead in Alien³ and the engine burn in Covenant.

I'd also argue that the effects other weapons in Isolation have on the Alien are perfectly realistic if you have this installed;
https://www.moddb.com/mods/improved-shotgun-vs-alien/downloads/improved-shotgun-vs-alien

To me it's not so much game mechanics but more that there's nothing on the station that would effective enough to kill it before it retreats, take the bolt-gun for instance which should be able to kill the creature but takes far too long to reload so that by the time you'd get to the next bolt you'd already be dead.

Like I said, game mechanics, you are not supposed to be able to kill it even if you have weapons that should. Its not Aliens vs Predator nor is it an Aliens game, its referencing the first movie where there is no marines. Its not canon that its invincible. As Dan O' Bannon once said, its an animal, if you shoot it then it dies. If you could do that in the game then it wouldn't be a challenge now would it? not to mention acid blood vs space station. The whole point of acid blood in the first place was that it created to stop the Nostromo crew from just shooting it and ending the threat there and then.

In Aliens, Vasquez takes one out with a pistol, and fire has killed them in other media. They are not unkillable, Isolation just requires you to be unable to kill it because the point of the game is to run and hide, not go Rambo on them, its a homage to the first game where characters are powerless against it if only by circumstance. Not to mention the first half of the game is about making you think you are being hunted by a single Alien, now if you could kill that supposedly single alien....then there would be no point in half the things you do in the game.

Its reaction to the flamethrower isn't that it knows it can't kill it, more like its losing patience with you and as a game mechanic, to punish the player for relying on it. When you get the flamethrower, it changes things, repeated use of it results in the game punishing you for being cocky.

One thing I would say, is that it would be logical if the guns on the station were low calibre to prevent hull breaches thus explaining why no one has killed an Alien on there but there is no sources on that as far as I know.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Jun 01, 2018, 05:30:10 PM
One thing I would say, is that it would be logical if the guns on the station were low calibre to prevent hull breaches thus explaining why no one has killed an Alien on there but there is no sources on that as far as I know.

Could be. Although if they were going for realism, you'd have to take into account personal weapons that people may have smuggled onboard. Or heirloom weapons. Or black market firearms. The station is huge. Something could be smuggled in during any number of shipment or personnel arrivals.

But reality obviously wasn't a priority, as Ricardo was packing a KSG. And I fail to believe that Kel-Tec is still around at that point in the future.  :D

Quote from: The Old One on May 31, 2018, 01:20:55 PM
The "Bring me this tea." scene is better than anything with Lance Henrikson's Weyland in AVP.

We're comparing different things. There's no denying the raw artistry in either of the two prequels.

Henriksen's acting is some of the best in the movies he's in. He always elevates what he's given, and he never slouches. Plus, he's a great sport when it comes to things like conventions and being involved with other Alien and Predator media.

Quote from: Huggs on Jun 01, 2018, 05:39:37 PM
But reality obviously wasn't a priority, as Ricardo was packing a KSG. And I fail to believe that Kel-Tec is still around at that point in the future.  :D

I fail to believe we'll be using clunky mid 20th Century computer hardware. That's just the Alien universe for you.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Jun 01, 2018, 05:30:10 PM
Game mechanics.

Did you even read what I wrote? I obviously disagree with that assertion. I never said it was invincible.
As for anyone shooting an Alien at point blank range with a pistol multiple times in the cranium, you never get that chance in Isolation.

"Fire can kill it in other media." Yes, but not good media- or media worth caring about.
Aside from Labyrinth but I'd hardly call those things standard flamethrowers.

I still stand by my assertion that the Alien is much, much tougher than most people would normally assume and
Isolation is proof of that.
It's as tough as it is smart and it's much smarter than Dan O'Bannon had in mind if you look at it's tactical decisions in Aliens 1986.
Dan O'Bannon's ideas for the Alien is no longer what the Alien actually is, in it's best media.

I don't see how you can really say that about O'bannon's take, since he saw it as a cultured and refined creature after it's initial stages. In O'bannons take, the creature we saw in the first film would have simply been the "infant" stage. Part of a much larger highly evolved society.

I do agree that the Alien is, to paraphrase Ash, a tough son-of-a-bitch. However, I also think it's invincibility get's overstated. There'd be no need to give it acid for blood to keep the crew in Alien from simply zapping it, otherwise. That was O"bannon doing his best to avoid the tired cliche of "BULLETS WONT STOP ITTT!"


We do know that flamethrowers are effective against the Alien from ALIENS. Apone kills the burster, Drake uses it on several aliens, Ripley torches eggs and uses it to repel the queen.

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 31, 2018, 04:12:06 AM
I would think so.  There are people living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki now.

https://gizmodo.com/why-can-people-live-in-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-now-but-1451250877

Radiation is only part of the evidence of a nuclear explosion and is affected by where the explosion happened.
- The detonation at Hiroshima occurred at a height of 1,900 ft (580 m).
http://www.dimensionsinfo.com/hiroshima-atomic-bomb-dimensions/
The Nagasaki bomb exploded at an altitude of about 1,650 feet (500 m)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Man

* But the Predator explosions were on the ground as shown in "AVP" so the radiation and the effects of heat from the explosion would be more extreme.
- At the near ground level Trinity test site elevated higher radiation still remains.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/a-visit-to-trinity-where-the-first-a-bomb-was-tested-in-1945-turns-up-radiation-still/2013/06/03/49ad5c0e-b104-11e2-baf7-5bc2a9dc6f44_story.html?utm_term=.5f25fb11409f
- At Hiroshima tiles were melted.
http://www.atomicarchive.com/Docs/MED/med_chp9.shtml
- At the Trinity test site the sand and rock was melted by the blast forming glass in the atmosphere which fell back to earth.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitite
- It seems this material (Trinitite) can be seen as evidence of a nuclear explosion.

* But in addition, the Predators were blowing up stone pyramids in Central America. There would be damaged blocks of stone, with some melting, from all that heat.
That would be left behind and would be evidence of nuclear explosions happening periodically in the area for thousands of years.

Quote from: Huggs on May 31, 2018, 05:03:32 AM
The pyramids was one of the things that irked me the most in AVP. That predators would teach mankind anything except how to run and die was alittle too history channel for my taste. As for scientific evidence, I'm assuming that various individuals and departments within governments and militaries already have knowledge of the predators. Keye's team, Anna and Dutch's testimony, Isabelle from predators. It can't be that big of a secret at this point. And surely any information compiled by keyes was intact since it was in the van, and they had been tracking cityhunter for some time. Judging by what he said, they had a pretty good idea of what the predator was and how he operated, except for the extra vision modes.

Well said. There should be plenty of eye witness testimony of the Predators before the events in "AVP".

Quote from: Huggs on May 31, 2018, 05:03:32 AM
Why weyland was apparently unaware of their existence even in AVP is beyond me. The man should have enough money and power to buy and sell anything. Surely he could've known.

I think the answer is that "AVP" is not supposed to be taken seriously.
It's a fun adventure/science fiction film. Nothing more. It's enjoyable imo at that level.

* What's important for me in this thread is the claim that "AVP" represents the background of the lore of the Alien franchise better than "Prometheus" and "Covenant".
I just don't see it that way.

;)

PS. Add to the effects of nuclear blasts are permanent shadows and thermal rays in stone.
Seeing some Xenomorph/Predator (or their weapon) shapes fused in stone would be a clear of nukes. 
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-permanent-shadows-were-formed-during-the-bombing-of-Hiroshima-and-Nagasaki-and-that-humans-were-vaporized-in-the-kill-zone-What-is-the-cause-of-permanent-shadows-Why-didnt-the-stair-in-the-picture-get-destroyed-from-the-explosion

How is AvP not meant to taken seriously?

Everyone who worked on it didn't take it seriously?

Quote from: SM on Jun 01, 2018, 10:34:50 PM
How is AvP not meant to taken seriously?

Everyone who worked on it didn't take it seriously?

I agree with you SM.

My comments in this thread go back to a couple of earlier posts by Local including;

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 30, 2018, 06:59:56 AM
I wish I was kidding, but I'm not.  AvP does the least amount of damage to the mythos, IMO.

How could a prequel movie which can't be taken seriously, "AVP", mess up the Alien mythos less than Scott's prequels which try to nail down the lore in detail and where the filmmakers have tried to defend the prequels in minute detail?

I just can't go along with "AVP" handling the background Alien lore better than Ridley's prequels.

;)

Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 01, 2018, 10:12:46 PM

We do know that flamethrowers are effective against the Alien from ALIENS. Apone kills the burster, Drake uses it on several aliens.
Ripley torches eggs and uses it to repel the queen.

Again all soft, squishy forms, we never actually see an Adult be roasted by it.

Quote from: bb-15 on Jun 01, 2018, 10:59:27 PM
How could a prequel movie which can't be taken seriously, "AVP", mess up the Alien mythos less than Scott's prequels which try to nail down the lore in detail and where the filmmakers have tried to defend the prequels in minute detail?

I just can't go along with "AVP" handling the background Alien lore better than Ridley's prequels.

;)

Mostly because AVP doesn't do much with the Alien side of the mythos. There's the founder of Weyland Industries, who dies, and there's something that was pretty much "known" about the entire AVP thing since the very first page of the first comic. Predators using Aliens for hunting.

Oh, and it doesn't actually butcher the aliens by turning them into a Frankenstein's monster. The pet project of a human made android. Humans which were made by the engineers, who used to be perceived as a twisted wholly different and Alien species of greater immense size with unknown motives.

There's a lot of reasons I can agree that AVP "handled the alien mythos" better than the prequels... It stayed the Hell away from it for the most part.

The unknown, the mystery is always going to be better in your mind than what makes it to the screen/page when it comes to giving backstory to something that didn't need it. I don't like David being responsible for the Alien as I'm sure many feel the same but I do like the arc it gives his character.

Personally in my head I can appreciate David being the creator within the context of Covenant but outside of the film itself, when I think of the Alien's origins my mind still pictures the Derelict. I do not care about the Space Jockey being a human-like though, as I always thought the shape of the Facehugger was rather convenient. To me the image of the dead Engineer, seemingly grown into it's chair is more important than what that creature actually looked like when it was alive. The prequels are a tug of war for me, there's elements I really like and others I would like to recontextualize.   

Quote from: bb-15 on Jun 01, 2018, 10:59:27 PM

Quote from: SM on Jun 01, 2018, 10:34:50 PM
How is AvP not meant to taken seriously?

Everyone who worked on it didn't take it seriously?

I agree with you SM.

My comments in this thread go back to a couple of earlier posts by Local including;

Quote from: Local Trouble on May 30, 2018, 06:59:56 AM
I wish I was kidding, but I'm not.  AvP does the least amount of damage to the mythos, IMO.

How could a prequel movie which can't be taken seriously, "AVP", mess up the Alien mythos less than Scott's prequels which try to nail down the lore in detail and where the filmmakers have tried to defend the prequels in minute detail?

I just can't go along with "AVP" handling the background Alien lore better than Ridley's prequels.

;)

That dodges the question. How is AvP not meant to be taken seriously?  It just sounds like a copout excuse by fans so they can enjoy a dodgy movie, guilt free. I don't believe for a second that either Anderson or the Strausii weren't taking their films seriously. They're never winking at the audience, that it's all just for laughs.

The AvP films took themselves far more seriously than AR did.

& That worked to AR's benefit IMO.

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 02, 2018, 12:20:39 AM
The unknown, the mystery is always going to be better in your mind than what makes it to the screen/page when it comes to giving backstory to something that didn't need it. I don't like David being responsible for the Alien as I'm sure many feel the same but I do like the arc it gives his character.

Personally in my head I can appreciate David being the creator within the context of Covenant but outside of the film itself, when I think of the Alien's origins my mind still pictures the Derelict. I do not care about the Space Jockey being a human-like though, as I always thought the shape of the Facehugger was rather convenient. To me the image of the dead Engineer, seemingly grown into it's chair is more important than what that creature actually looked like when it was alive. The prequels are a tug of war for me, there's elements I really like and others I would like to recontextualize.

I'm all for David having mad science shit. Just not creating THE Alien.

How great it would be for him to find himself so mighty, his creations so wonderful, only to have him hit a brick wall and not know how to truly perfect his creation?

He had ten years, with virtually no sophisticated equipment save whatever wasn't trashed on the Juggernaut, and what he had on his body.

The engineers, by comparison, had apparently hundreds of thousands of years to perfect their genetic engineering feats.

Having the Jockey's be humans is just so lazy. It could have been the next creature to give us that "Wow. Holy shit." Moment akin to Rex in JP or the Queen in Aliens.

Hell, my personal thing was always that the Jockey didn't even need to be nefarious or malicious. They could have been entirely benign beings unto themselves.


Between AR and the AVP films I just choose not to play. They all bore me and are a slog to get through.

I can give the prequels this much. They are far and away more beautiful than anything produceed since 1992.

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 01, 2018, 10:03:32 PM

Quote from: The Cruentus on Jun 01, 2018, 05:30:10 PM
Game mechanics.

Did you even read what I wrote? I obviously disagree with that assertion.

I did and I repeat, game mechanics.

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 01, 2018, 10:03:32 PM
As for anyone shooting an Alien at point blank range with a pistol multiple times in the cranium, you never get that chance in Isolation.

Technically you can, its just very hard to do and sometimes requires the alien to get stuck, shoot them point blank with anything does nothing because you are not supposed to kill the Alien. It is nothing to do with in-universe or super toughness, the game devs designed the game as a hide and seek horror, with a enemy you can't fight. If you run and gun, where would the horror be? the Alien would just be another you enemy you could easily deal with.

Quote"Fire can kill it in other media." Yes, but not good media- or media worth caring about.
Aside from Labyrinth but I'd hardly call those things standard flamethrowers.

Incorrect, not all other media is bad, for example I wouldn't call Aliens vs predator games bad, the first and second were good, the last one was mediocre.

Quote
I still stand by my assertion that the Alien is much, much tougher than most people would normally assume and
Isolation is proof of that.
It's as tough as it is smart and it's much smarter than Dan O'Bannon had in mind if you look at it's tactical decisions in Aliens 1986.
Dan O'Bannon's ideas for the Alien is no longer what the Alien actually is, in it's best media.

Alien Isolation is proof of nothing. You can't kill it because you are not supposed to no matter what. A game mechanic is not canon, its for gameplay purposes. Yes the Alien is tough son of a gun, it has already proved that in films but the Alien in this game is literally shielded with plot armor for the purpose of the game, its not mean to be taken literally.  :P
Dan O'Bannon said that statement during the commentary of Alien which was 2003? I believe, so he is not behind the times when speaking about how they can be killed with a gun.

Anyway you are entitled to your opinion but personally I wouldn't take gameplay too seriously.

Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 01, 2018, 11:26:50 PM

Quote from: bb-15 on Jun 01, 2018, 10:59:27 PM
How could a prequel movie which can't be taken seriously, "AVP", mess up the Alien mythos less than Scott's prequels which try to nail down the lore in detail and where the filmmakers have tried to defend the prequels in minute detail?

I just can't go along with "AVP" handling the background Alien lore better than Ridley's prequels.

;)

Mostly because AVP doesn't do much with the Alien side of the mythos. There's the founder of Weyland Industries, who dies, and there's something that was pretty much "known" about the entire AVP thing since the very first page of the first comic. Predators using Aliens for hunting.

Oh, and it doesn't actually butcher the aliens by turning them into a Frankenstein's monster. The pet project of a human made android. Humans which were made by the engineers, who used to be perceived as a twisted wholly different and Alien species of greater immense size with unknown motives.

There's a lot of reasons I can agree that AVP "handled the alien mythos" better than the prequels... It stayed the Hell away from it for the most part.

Mostly AVP just messed up real life facts, the Xenomorphs lore was not really touched upon except referencing the comics in where Predators used for hunts. 
I never liked it David creating the Xenomorph but in hindsight, I don't think I like Engineers creating them either, I think they should just be this mysterious lifeform that was merely being used as a bio-weapon by them, and maybe modified a little but still have them as somewhat natural creatures. More scarier that way because nature can be scary.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Jun 02, 2018, 12:39:36 PM

Technically you can, it's just very hard to do and sometimes requires the alien to get stuck, shoot them point blank with anything does nothing because you are not supposed to kill the Alien. It is nothing to do with in-universe or super toughness, the game devs designed the game as a hide and seek horror, with a enemy you can't fight. If you run and gun, where would the horror be? the Alien would just be another you enemy you could easily deal with.

Incorrect, not all other media is bad, for example I wouldn't call Aliens vs predator games bad, the first and second were good, the last one was mediocre.

Alien Isolation is proof of nothing. You can't kill it because you are not supposed to no matter what. A game mechanic is not canon, its for gameplay purposes. Yes the Alien is tough son of a gun, it has already proved that in films but the Alien in this game is literally shielded with plot armor for the purpose of the game, its not mean to be taken literally.  :P
Dan O'Bannon said that statement during the commentary of Alien which was 2003? I believe, so he is not behind the times when speaking about how they can be killed with a gun.

Anyway you are entitled to your opinion but personally I wouldn't take gameplay too seriously.

So, Amanda Ripley would've never really had the chance or she would die correct? Therefore any action that would lead to her death wouldn't be canon- meaning she never attempted to shoot one directly in the cranium. However multiple times you can shoot it in medium to long range and evade it shortly before it has the opportunity to disembowel you, so I'd consider that canon- likewise I'd consider it canon that the civilians on Sevastopol in some instances were able to get off a few shots before it got to them, their weaponry simply isn't sufficient.
The horror is in exactly what Ash states, with the weaponry you have access to you can not kill it.

AVP Classic & Monolith's AVP are truly just game mechanics, unlike Isolation which I consider every moment of as the intent to be a realistic as possible. Those games have an almost comic-book like tone, especially the second- not everything in them is meant to be taken at face value.
In Isolation everything is made with the attempt to make the player take it at face value.

(He never states what kind of gun.)

I will, in this case.

Also the Alien being a natural creature is garbage IMO. If there's one thing in the EU that made me retch more than anything it's the term "Xenomorph Homeworld" they've always quite clearly been a construct to me, constructed by what doesn't matter, and shouldn't have been told.

I like Covenant just because it resonates more with me. I like nihilistic films, and the Frankenstein and AI aspects I find interesting. I like the tone, the atmosphere, the unapologetic nature of it all. I just love it. I know the film has its flaws but they're neither here nor there for me and they don't detract from my enjoyment of it. I think it's a solid film with a lot of substance and it can also be viewed as a singular entry.

I also like that David created the Alien. I'm aware this is a crux of why many people detest this film, but for me I thought it was beautifully done and to me it's more interesting than if the Engineers created them. With David creating them, it feels more personal, more motivated, and I like that. I think it fits perfectly.

I'd like Covenant more if it was better and not named Covenant. I think David being the creator works wonderfully in the context of Covenant alone but beyond that it's ridiculous from the POV of the amount of coincidences that led to the Nostromo discovering the Derelict. Makes the universe feel infinitely smaller than it should do.

Alien ought to be the universe of Xenomorphs, Necromorphs, Pathogens and Things.
Not everything from the hubris of humans.

That the universe is mostly dead and anything alive shouldn't be woken up. That's my biggest problem with David being responsible for THE Alien.

I really don't think the vastness of space and the unknown is that interesting, to be honest. That's what Star Trek is for. I think Alien works better when it's intimate and personal. I mean, it's not to say being smaller in scope is always good, but i think it just works better for the darker leanings and more grounded roots of the Alien series. But I can't disagree with you because it is subjective whether people like it or not. It's just my personal taste.

A L I E N

Is the unknown, the idea that the universe is vast but not welcoming, it is unfamiliar, unforgiving and ultimately indefinable.
To compare it to Star Trek is frankly insulting.

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 05, 2018, 05:14:57 AM
A L I E N

Is the unknown, the idea that the universe is vast but not welcoming, it is unfamiliar, unforgiving and ultimately indefinable.
To compare it to Star Trek is frankly insulting.

To boldly go, where nobody would freakin' dare.

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 05, 2018, 05:14:57 AM
A L I E N

Is the unknown, the idea that the universe is vast but not welcoming, it is unfamiliar, unforgiving and ultimately indefinable.
To compare it to Star Trek is frankly insulting.

But I didn't compare it to Star Trek. I merely made a point that Alien is more personal and intimate in nature. To me, the Alien series is about humanity, the Alien itself is a bastardisation of humanity, and Covenant fits nicely in that theme.

The Snatchers should be only one of the few things out there, if you look under a rock from one place to the next, 9/10 times it's just a rock.

But the other 1/10 it's a Derelict on LV-426, a base on LV-223, a ship crashed in the Artic, a Marker on Aegis 7, that's Alien to me.

I don't like humans being considered the cosmic centre of everything, that's why I like the Engineers, that we could be just another Petri dish. Humans aren't important.

Alien isn't a bastardisation of humanity, it's humanity perfected as an animal without conscience and it would be the same for any creature it infects.

Without conscience or remorse - qualities which make us generally good. It's essentially a manifest of all our perversions. That's a bastardisation.

Humans aren't the centre of the universe but the Alien series does centre on human qualities and struggles. Humanity and the underlying themes about it have always been the focal point and the Alien is always used as a antagonist.

Quote from: PsyKore on Jun 05, 2018, 06:00:48 AM
Without conscience or remorse - qualities which make us generally good. It's essentially a manifest of all our perversions. That's a bastardisation.

Humans aren't the centre of the universe but the Alien series does centre on human qualities and struggles. Humanity and the underlying themes about it have always been the focal point and the Alien is always used as a antagonist.

Duh, but also the qualities that make us fight each other.

Yawn, sounds like every story ever.

I don't know. I preferred when the alien was just an alien, the jockey was just another alien, and humans were just apes with space ships.

Now it's an interweaving mess of relationships. We're all one big family!

Quote from: PsyKore on Jun 05, 2018, 04:00:10 AM
I like Covenant just because it resonates more with me. I like nihilistic films, and the Frankenstein and AI aspects I find interesting. I like the tone, the atmosphere, the unapologetic nature of it all. I just love it. I know the film has its flaws but they're neither here nor there for me and they don't detract from my enjoyment of it. I think it's a solid film with a lot of substance and it can also be viewed as a singular entry.

I also like that David created the Alien. I'm aware this is a crux of why many people detest this film, but for me I thought it was beautifully done and to me it's more interesting than if the Engineers created them. With David creating them, it feels more personal, more motivated, and I like that. I think it fits perfectly.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel about Covenant as well.

I completely understand why people don't like David being the creator and I didn't think I would like it either but it actually really worked for me.

Prometheus was such a let down,  it still hurts to this day.  I just cant forget or forgive the feeling i got half way through when it just totally fell apart into the shambles it is.  I have tried and tried with it and watched multiple re-edits but nothing can fix it.

Covenant on the other hand had more of what i wanted out of an Alien movie so it gets my vote.

Prometheus is an ambitious movie, I like that, took a while for me to appreciate it though (even though it has beautiful visuals).  Covenant I loved instantly, and made me re-assess Prometheus because I could see where they were going with it.  As a standalone movie, Prometheus doesn't work for me, but paired with Covenant, it is the first part in an epic saga.

Prometheus is really the origin story for David.  Look at it that way.  Covenant is the origin of the alien and continuing David's story.

To be honest, I'd probably be fine with David being responsible for the Alien if the Alien wasn't all we had.

What this franchise needs is a monster that the alien can do battle with that's not a Predator or a human.

Ew no

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 05, 2018, 05:35:17 AM
The Snatchers should be only one of the few things out there, if you look under a rock from one place to the next, 9/10 times it's just a rock.

But the other 1/10 it's a Derelict on LV-426, a base on LV-223, a ship crashed in the Artic, a Marker on Aegis 7, that's Alien to me.

Just because if we go out far enough in any direction in the Alien universe and encounter different kinds of fresh hell doesn't mean they need to all get into a wrestling match.

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 05, 2018, 06:18:01 AM

Quote from: PsyKore on Jun 05, 2018, 06:00:48 AM
Without conscience or remorse - qualities which make us generally good. It's essentially a manifest of all our perversions. That's a bastardisation.

Humans aren't the centre of the universe but the Alien series does centre on human qualities and struggles. Humanity and the underlying themes about it have always been the focal point and the Alien is always used as a antagonist.

Duh, but also the qualities that make us fight each other.

Yawn, sounds like every story ever.

What is with the attitude?

Quote from: whiterabbit on Jun 05, 2018, 11:11:21 AM
What this franchise needs is a monster that the alien can do battle with that's not a Predator or a human.

They almost did that with Covenant, I believe the Xenomorph was going to fight the Neomorph, I would have liked to have seen that as I found the Neomorphs wasted and at least it would have had a better death.

I would have preferred Covenant with just the Neomorphs to be honest. The Alien feels forced in my opinion and is not given the presence it needed, whereas the previous movies (Alien, Aliens and Alien 3) you knew it was still out there, somewhere in the same area, or in vents or in shadows and the slower pace helped itetc but the pacing in the last half of Covenant is so fast you are not given time to think.

Quote from: The Cruentus on Jun 05, 2018, 11:45:02 AM

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 05, 2018, 06:18:01 AM

Quote from: PsyKore on Jun 05, 2018, 06:00:48 AM
Without conscience or remorse - qualities which make us generally good. It's essentially a manifest of all our perversions. That's a bastardisation.

Humans aren't the centre of the universe but the Alien series does centre on human qualities and struggles. Humanity and the underlying themes about it have always been the focal point and the Alien is always used as a antagonist.

Duh, but also the qualities that make us fight each other.

Yawn, sounds like every story ever.

What is with the attitude?

Quote from: whiterabbit on Jun 05, 2018, 11:11:21 AM
What this franchise needs is a monster that the alien can do battle with that's not a Predator or a human.

They almost did that with Covenant, I believe the Xenomorph was going to fight the Neomorph, I would have liked to have seen that as I found the Neomorphs wasted and at least it would have had a better death.

I would have preferred Covenant with just the Neomorphs to be honest. The Alien feels forced in my opinion and is not given the presence it needed, whereas the previous movies (Alien, Aliens and Alien 3) you knew it was still out there, somewhere in the same area, or in vents or in shadows and the slower pace helped itetc but the pacing in the last half of Covenant is so fast you are not given time to think.

No attitude.

Agreed about Neomorphs only.
But then you can't have Alien in the title so;

Paradise Lost

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 05, 2018, 05:14:57 AM
A L I E N

Is the unknown, the idea that the universe is vast but not welcoming, it is unfamiliar, unforgiving and ultimately indefinable.
To compare it to Star Trek is frankly insulting.

A humanoid alien sitting in a spaceship with vulva openings carrying a cargo of eggs containing parasites that infect human(oid) hosts and give birth to a humanoid penile-figurative-rape monster, totally not human at all lol ::)

Quote from: whiterabbit on Jun 05, 2018, 11:11:21 AM
What this franchise needs is a monster that the alien can do battle with that's not a Predator or a human.

(https://i.imgur.com/xdTigpD.jpg)

Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 05, 2018, 01:16:38 PM

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 05, 2018, 05:14:57 AM
A L I E N

Is the unknown, the idea that the universe is vast but not welcoming, it is unfamiliar, unforgiving and ultimately indefinable.
To compare it to Star Trek is frankly insulting.

A humanoid alien sitting in a spaceship with vulva openings carrying a cargo of eggs containing parasites that infect human(oid) hosts and give birth to a humanoid penile-figurative-rape monster, totally not human at all lol ::)

Yeah you're right, it's not.

Because if that isn't, nothing is.

I never saw anything remotely human about the creature or the Alien franchise. I don't think the xenomorph is a bastardization of humanity, as it takes on host features, like the runner, and might look and act completely different depending on the host species. Under certain circumstances, it may not even take on any human features at all. If the Xenomorph is the embodiment of anything, it's death. I think it's a wild, predatory animal. It's more akin to an insect really, a very vicious insect.

Aside from the fact that it has two legs and two arms, that's about as far as the similarities go I'd say. I think there's a desire to want to feel that it goes deeper and is more meaningful than that, but as far as I'm concerned, the Alien is a vicious killing machine, just like a shark. It does what it does because its animal instinct says it has to. And God help those on the receiving end of its destruction.

As for the question itself, I chose Prometheus. I'd rather say they both suck, but the wording asked which of the two I prefer, so I chose the lesser of two evils.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 05, 2018, 01:28:07 PM

Quote from: whiterabbit on Jun 05, 2018, 11:11:21 AM
What this franchise needs is a monster that the alien can do battle with that's not a Predator or a human.

(https://i.imgur.com/xdTigpD.jpg)

And just like that you made me realize just how dumb that idea was.

Well it's not dumb, just the adversary in that comic looks underwhelming. The concept would still work for a product of evolution.

Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 05, 2018, 06:47:53 AM
I don't know. I preferred when the alien was just an alien, the jockey was just another alien, and humans were just apes with space ships.

Now it's an interweaving mess of relationships. We're all one big family!

It is what it is. Alien was superior when it was Alien.

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 05, 2018, 03:12:18 PM

Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 05, 2018, 01:16:38 PM

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 05, 2018, 05:14:57 AM
A L I E N

Is the unknown, the idea that the universe is vast but not welcoming, it is unfamiliar, unforgiving and ultimately indefinable.
To compare it to Star Trek is frankly insulting.

A humanoid alien sitting in a spaceship with vulva openings carrying a cargo of eggs containing parasites that infect human(oid) hosts and give birth to a humanoid penile-figurative-rape monster, totally not human at all lol ::)

Yeah you're right, it's not.

Because if that isn't, nothing is.

The alien seems perfectly crafted for human infection, almost like they were made for us...

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 05, 2018, 03:12:18 PM

Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 05, 2018, 01:16:38 PM

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 05, 2018, 05:14:57 AM
A L I E N

Is the unknown, the idea that the universe is vast but not welcoming, it is unfamiliar, unforgiving and ultimately indefinable.
To compare it to Star Trek is frankly insulting.

A humanoid alien sitting in a spaceship with vulva openings carrying a cargo of eggs containing parasites that infect human(oid) hosts and give birth to a humanoid penile-figurative-rape monster, totally not human at all lol ::)

Yeah you're right, it's not.

Because if that isn't, nothing is.

Quote from: Huggs on Jun 05, 2018, 05:50:48 PM
I never saw anything remotely human about the creature or the Alien franchise.

Not sure how to respond, haha. I guess people see what they want to see (said with a smile on my face, not one of my typical insults).

Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 05, 2018, 09:47:42 PM
The alien seems perfectly crafted for human infection, almost like they were made for us...

That's more along my line of thinking. Hell. how could a truly alien lifeform even be compatible with us in the first place? In fact, the human connection just makes Ash's speech more powerful.

Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 05, 2018, 10:15:01 PM

Not sure how to respond, haha. I guess people see what they want to see (said with a smile on my face, not one of my typical insults).

It's all good. But fret not, the minute I turn on the news and hear that a man resembling an 8 foot serpent-like monster with acidic blood, a penis head and a long spiked tail dragged another full grown man into an air vent to eat him for supper, I will quickly concede the point....and run balls out for Alaska. As for now, I just see a monster killing people.  ;)

That doesnt even make sense with regard to the conversation.

I was responding to a post regarding my not seeing anything remotely human in the xenomorph. I just see a monster, nothing more. I think they're about as different from us as an apple is to a canoe. That's all I was talking about.

But seriously, if you saw that on the news would you stick around? I'll be in Florida volunteering for space missions.

Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 05, 2018, 10:15:01 PM

Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 05, 2018, 09:47:42 PM
The alien seems perfectly crafted for human infection, almost like they were made for us...

That's more along my line of thinking. Hell. how could a truly alien lifeform even be compatible with us in the first place?

Because it's an Alien parasite that takes on the form of whatever it infects?
Made for us perhaps, I can buy that, but indirectly by us is what I don't like.
That's why I felt the Engineers, at least somewhat ambiguously being responsible for the Alien was more appropriate.
Ambiguously being the key-word.
For all the reasons you've stated, and all the reasons I've stated.

Quote from: Huggs on Jun 05, 2018, 11:00:14 PM
I was responding to a post regarding my not seeing anything remotely human in the xenomorph. I just see a monster, nothing more. I think they're about as different from us as an apple is to a canoe. That's all I was talking about.

But seriously, if you saw that on the news would you stick around? I'll be in Florida volunteering for space missions.

Humans and Aliens - two arms, two legs, a chest, a head, a mouth.
Apple and canoe - they both float....?

Quote from: SM on Jun 06, 2018, 02:14:54 AM

Quote from: Huggs on Jun 05, 2018, 11:00:14 PM
I was responding to a post regarding my not seeing anything remotely human in the xenomorph. I just see a monster, nothing more. I think they're about as different from us as an apple is to a canoe. That's all I was talking about.

But seriously, if you saw that on the news would you stick around? I'll be in Florida volunteering for space missions.

Humans and Aliens - two arms, two legs, a chest, a head, a mouth.
Apple and canoe - they both float....?

Well, of course. Everything floats in space.  :D

I know what you mean. My point was just that my personal view of the creature is that I've never really seen at as anything close to human. The limbs obviously are humanoid, but I just never saw anything else really human-like about the creature. The same with the eggs. I just saw alien eggs. I guess I'm just old school, and look at a monster and just see a monster, or a large insect really. Perhaps that's why the runner design never bothered me that much.

The Runner has two legs, arms and a head- there's no reason for it to go Kenner.

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 06, 2018, 02:49:23 AM
The Runner has two legs, arms and a head- there's no reason for it to go Kenner.

Before Prometheus, I always thought the runner was about as different as you could get from a standard xenomorph. But seeing the deacon realy got me wondering what the genetic and biological factors were that influenced the development of the embryo. Why was the deacon born with a different mandibular setup than the typical xenomorph? Was it just the host, or the proto-facehugger? The runner was born from a dog or cow, depending on the version you prefer best, and it shared the same basic predatory features as those that came before it, minus some slight differences. The engineer would account for the size of the deacon, but why the protruding jaw?

The same with Covenant, you have a formed xenomorph bursting from a human host that was attacked by what appeared to be a normal facehugger. Are xenomorphs like unique strains of the same virus? Or is there some master form we've yet to see? Some ancient species. And will we ever see it?

Quote from: Huggs on Jun 06, 2018, 02:59:11 AM
Snip.

Eh.

The Neomorph and Deacon are essentially the same creature, I would account for the differences in the Deacon as it having an unusually complex set of circumstances that led to it's birth- I'd say you could hand-wave that away on that basis alone.

As for the chestburster in Covenant, the real reason is that Ridley Scott wanted it to be able to mimic David- for my personal head canon however;
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2hd4-KV2mrk/maxresdefault.jpg)

In this moment it basically is the classic chestburster, but like the rest of the lifecycle it's speed is accelerated to a ludicrous degree.
Which would leave me to believe that this;
(https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/006/043/646/large/gabriel-beauvais-aliencovenant-itw-10.jpg?1495628514)
Is what a chestburster looks like after shedding it's embryonic skin/form and begins it's growth into the adult.

---

Quote from: Huggs on Jun 06, 2018, 02:59:11 AM

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 06, 2018, 02:49:23 AM
The Runner has two legs, arms and a head- there's no reason for it to go Kenner.

Before Prometheus, I always thought the runner was about as different as you could get from a standard xenomorph.

I'd say it still is to a reasonable degree, there's no problem with anything between that and a Spitter,
but a Crusher for instance is too much.

If you really still need your Xenomorph inspired creatures running around that are a little more extreme the Pathogen is always there.  Makes me wonder if due to their accelerated lifecycle the Neomorphs only have a few days to live like the original Alien was intended to have, they basically are microwave Aliens in every sense.

(https://img.etsystatic.com/il/30255a/1258724465/il_570xN.1258724465_qg3x.jpg?version=0)

Quote from: Huggs on Jun 06, 2018, 02:59:11 AM

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 06, 2018, 02:49:23 AM
The Runner has two legs, arms and a head- there's no reason for it to go Kenner.

Before Prometheus, I always thought the runner was about as different as you could get from a standard xenomorph. But seeing the deacon realy got me wondering what the genetic and biological factors were that influenced the development of the embryo. Why was the deacon born with a different mandibular setup than the typical xenomorph? Was it just the host, or the proto-facehugger? The runner was born from a dog or cow, depending on the version you prefer best, and it shared the same basic predatory features as those that came before it, minus some slight differences. The engineer would account for the size of the deacon, but why the protruding jaw?

I think the deacon was put in the movie to please the xeno audience.
Carlos Huante said it wasn't supposed to be in the movie as it was too close to the xeno too early in the prequel series.
And I agree. It should've been something totally different. Something weird and pale closer to the neo than the xeno.
Or the scene should've just been cut. I think I'd like the movie more without that scene.

The best thing about the Deacon is that the scream it makes as the credits role, can be heard earlier in the film when the holograms in the Temple first appear.

Quote from: Huggs on Jun 06, 2018, 02:59:11 AM

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 06, 2018, 02:49:23 AM
The Runner has two legs, arms and a head- there's no reason for it to go Kenner.

Before Prometheus, I always thought the runner was about as different as you could get from a standard xenomorph. But seeing the deacon realy got me wondering what the genetic and biological factors were that influenced the development of the embryo. Why was the deacon born with a different mandibular setup than the typical xenomorph? Was it just the host, or the proto-facehugger? The runner was born from a dog or cow, depending on the version you prefer best, and it shared the same basic predatory features as those that came before it, minus some slight differences. The engineer would account for the size of the deacon, but why the protruding jaw?

The same with Covenant, you have a formed xenomorph bursting from a human host that was attacked by what appeared to be a normal facehugger. Are xenomorphs like unique strains of the same virus? Or is there some master form we've yet to see? Some ancient species. And will we ever see it?

The Deacon is not a Xenomorph any more than a Neomorph is, they just share the same origin, that black goo. I imagine a proper Xenomorph from an Engineer would not look that much different from big chap, propably be taller and a few slight differences but due to the dna being matched, it would not be that different, at least I don't think it would.

In Covenant, that wasn't really a "normal" facehugger, if you look closely you will see it has longer limbs with extra knuckles and a different texture/appearance, being more bumpy looking. I like to think that the reason for the differences is that its an early strain, but some say that its intended to be a proper Xenomorph, just with an updated appearance.

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jun 06, 2018, 03:54:07 AM

Quote from: Huggs on Jun 06, 2018, 02:59:11 AM

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 06, 2018, 02:49:23 AM
The Runner has two legs, arms and a head- there's no reason for it to go Kenner.

Before Prometheus, I always thought the runner was about as different as you could get from a standard xenomorph. But seeing the deacon realy got me wondering what the genetic and biological factors were that influenced the development of the embryo. Why was the deacon born with a different mandibular setup than the typical xenomorph? Was it just the host, or the proto-facehugger? The runner was born from a dog or cow, depending on the version you prefer best, and it shared the same basic predatory features as those that came before it, minus some slight differences. The engineer would account for the size of the deacon, but why the protruding jaw?

I think the deacon was put in the movie to please the xeno audience.
Carlos Huante said it wasn't supposed to be in the movie as it was too close to the xeno too early in the prequel series.
And I agree. It should've been something totally different. Something weird and pale closer to the neo than the xeno.
Or the scene should've just been cut. I think I'd like the movie more without that scene.

I look at the production history differently.
The artwork of Carlos Huante were concepts that eventually needed to follow the draft scripts from Jon Spaihts.
http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/carlos-huante-shares-rare-prometheus-concept-art
Later the script had a major rewrite to get costs down and so Ridley could have Lindelof change parts of the story.

In the Huante concept drawings there was a creature called the Ultramorph. For Steven Messing, Visual Art Director for Prometheus, in his interview in the 3D Blu-Ray set, the Ultramorph still existed. We just know it as the Deacon. Quotes from the Messing interview;

QuoteThe xenomorph in my mind was a descendant of the Ultramorph. It was the pure form of this kind of almost virus that these Engineers had created.

They're a lot about sacrifice, so in my mind, there was an Engineer that sacrificed himself with this virus and it created this horrific creature, this being that was gonna eradicate planets. It was like a parasite that would destroy the planet and then make it start over and rebirth it.

And they kinda worshiped it, and that's where you see this relief sculpture where it's almost a religious sculpture.

Notice that Messing talks about the relief sculpture which was in "Prometheus".
https://kunzelman.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/0ed5u.jpg

Ridley called the same creature the Deacon. Messing's Ultramorph = Ridley's Deacon.

* As for the color of the Deacon/Ultramorph and why it's in the movie;
The regular Xenomorph was in at least 2 draft scripts from Spaihts. That is because before Lindelof got involved, "Prometheus" was supposed to take place on LV-426 and be a direct prequel to "Alien".
Ridley had Lindelof make substantial changes to the script and the regular Xeno as well as the white Beluga-Xenomorph were taken out.
What was left was the dark Deacon which as I mentioned was a version of the Ultramorph.
The Deacon/Ultramorph being dark makes sense imo considering that Messing considered the Deacon/Ultramorph to be a forerunner of the Xenomorph.

;)

I get that but imo it was too soon to show a creature so close to the xeno. Even the original ultramorph was pale and didn't have the extendable jaw.

Edit: found the source material
https://www.instagram.com/p/BUbBHY2De1j/?taken-by=carlos_huante

film_fanaticcollector I really like the Deacon from Prometheus dont understand the hate for it
carlos_huante@film_fanaticcollector sorry but I actually hated that thing ..

carlos_huante@film_fanaticcollector that's the reason I was unhappy with what was finally made for that thing at the end of Prometheus.. it was supposed to be the earlier version of this.. with the more bulbous forehead .. and white.. and not a full figured creature.. there shouldn't have been a zenomorph in Prometheus or this latest film in my opinion.. it's too soon.. just my opinion

carlos_huante@menavem the Ultramorph and the Deacon were born at the same time.. what people don't realize is that the Deacon wasn't written in the Prometheus script.. it was purely my offering to Ridley as a version of the zenomorph that wouldn't be biomechanical yet...he named it the Bishop and then later the Deacon

carlos_huanteThe Ultramorph was going to be the giant.. I never read a script where it was actually written in though.. nor the Deacon for that matter..the Deacon was supposed to come out of a man only..

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jun 08, 2018, 02:31:42 AM
I get that but imo it was too soon to show a creature so close to the xeno. Even the original ultramorph was pale and didn't have the extendable jaw.

Edit: found the source material
https://www.instagram.com/p/BUbBHY2De1j/?taken-by=carlos_huante

film_fanaticcollector I really like the Deacon from Prometheus dont understand the hate for it
carlos_huante@film_fanaticcollector sorry but I actually hated that thing ..

carlos_huante@film_fanaticcollector that's the reason I was unhappy with what was finally made for that thing at the end of Prometheus.. it was supposed to be the earlier version of this.. with the more bulbous forehead .. and white.. and not a full figured creature.. there shouldn't have been a zenomorph in Prometheus or this latest film in my opinion.. it's too soon.. just my opinion

carlos_huante@menavem the Ultramorph and the Deacon were born at the same time.. what people don't realize is that the Deacon wasn't written in the Prometheus script.. it was purely my offering to Ridley as a version of the zenomorph that wouldn't be biomechanical yet...he named it the Bishop and then later the Deacon

carlos_huanteThe Ultramorph was going to be the giant.. I never read a script where it was actually written in though.. nor the Deacon for that matter..the Deacon was supposed to come out of a man only..

The problem here imo is that not all filmmakers are informed of facts in the production. And that applies to some of the quotes you posted from Carlos Huante.

* First quote states;

"I actually hated that thing"

- Hate is a gut reaction, often not based on facts which can lead to irrational conclusions. 
- I already mentioned, Steven Messing, who was involved in the Deacon wall sculpture. He gives a more reasoned description of the Ultramorph/Deacon.

* Second quote;

"The Ultramorph was going to be the giant.. I never read a script where it was actually written in though.."

From the "Alien Engineers" script written by Jon Spaihts.
http://www.joblo.com/scripts/Alien-Engineers-ORIGINAL-PROMETHEUS-SCRIPT.pdf
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/files/scripts/script-alien-engineers-spaihts.pdf

QuoteAn ALIEN erupts from his chest, Big as a wolf even at its birth. Dark gray, armored, lethal. More hideous than any chestburster we've seen. An ULTRAMORPH

(Page 110)

- This is extremely important in understanding why Steven Messing called the creature in the sculpture the Ultramorph. As I wrote this creature is also the Deacon.
1. The Jon Spaihts draft script says this creature is the Ultramorph.
2. Spaihts describes the color of the creature as "dark gray".
The Deacon in the film is a dark gray.
3. The new born Deacon/Ultramorph is much bigger than a Xenomorph chestburster.
- One can imagine that a full grown Deacon would be much larger than a Xenomorph.

* Third quote;

"there shouldn't have been a zenomorph in Prometheus"

Based on what?
- My source that a creature similar to a Xenomorph could exist in "Prometheus"?
The "Alien Engineers" draft script by Jon Spaihts.

QuoteXENOMORPH INCUBATOR

(Page 79)

If a script says that there is a place where Xenomorphs can be created, then creatures which look like Xenomorphs can exist in the final cut of "Prometheus".

* Fourth quote;

"it was supposed to be the earlier version of this... and not a full figured creature.."

From the "Alien Engineers" script.

QuoteWatts sees a full-grown Alien crouching over Vigoda's body on the floor.

(Page 92)

Huante is not making a rational argument here. He was involved in the early development of "Prometheus" when Jon Spaihts was the script writer.
But Huante is uninformed about many details in what Spaihts was writing in his draft script.

;)

Yeah, but eventually it's Prometheus and not Alien: Engineers we're talking about. If Prometheus is supposed to be the first part in a trilogy, I think it's more logical to show a creature that looks less similar to the xeno.

If you think the deacon is dark gray, we have different opinions on colours. To me it's more black/dark blue/dark green but not dark grey like the ultramorph that's described. Just do a google image search for dark grey and compare it to the deacon. Dark grey is closer to the neomorph and the concept art for the ultramorph.

I guess Huenta has a different point of view on the evolution of the creature, no matter how the movies turned out. And I share that pov.

The more I watch Covenant, the more I think David uploaded by temptation or force into Walter's body, off thread but yo

As far as the topic at hand, I much prefer Covenant. I like its darker vibe, I like its cheaper, straight-to-cable-almost feel. It works for it. I like the pacing, I like plenty about it. I dont like certain mythological ideas that it presents but thats another thing. As a story/movie, Covenant wins over Prometheus for sure

Don't you think it could have used a bit more kookiness, like AR?

Quote from: StrangeShape on Jun 10, 2018, 01:01:30 AM
As far as the topic at hand, I much prefer Covenant. I like its darker vibe, I like its cheaper, straight-to-cable-almost feel. It works for it. I like the pacing, I like plenty about it. I dont like certain mythological ideas that it presents but thats another thing. As a story/movie, Covenant wins over Prometheus for sure

I don't think it's cheap but I do think it's intensely self-aware.

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 10, 2018, 01:40:43 AM

Quote from: StrangeShape on Jun 10, 2018, 01:01:30 AM
As far as the topic at hand, I much prefer Covenant. I like its darker vibe, I like its cheaper, straight-to-cable-almost feel. It works for it. I like the pacing, I like plenty about it. I dont like certain mythological ideas that it presents but thats another thing. As a story/movie, Covenant wins over Prometheus for sure

I don't think it's cheap but I do think it's intensely self-aware.

It doesnt feel like a grand movie. It feels more like something straight to cable, and the very bad CGI contributes to it, but I think it actually works for the movie. Its small, its not grand, its not loud. Not that theres anything wrong with loud grand movies, hell no! Just that this feel works for the movies advantage somehow , i cant describe it. Sometimes there are straight to cable movies which are simple and cheap but rarely but sometimes theyre actually really good and have a certain feel. Covenant is like that

Covenant has beautiful cinematography and sets. The practical and CGI effects are fantastic (aside from some creature CGI). Nothing about the look or production feels cheap or anything like a TV movie/straight to cable film.

Say what you will about the story, pacing, or characters but cheap and straight to cable? No

Prometheus was grandiose.

Covenant is more intimate, although if it had better writing for the human characters it would've been even more so.

Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 10, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
Covenant has beautiful cinematography and sets. The practical and CGI effects are fantastic (aside from some creature CGI). Nothing about the look or production feels cheap or anything like a TV movie/straight to cable film.

Say what you will about the story, pacing, or characters but cheap and straight to cable? No

Yeah, I don't get his point either. It looks like a typical $100+ million movie. I'd say Prometheus still has the edge in visuals but Covenant's writing is definitely an improvement.

Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jun 10, 2018, 04:58:02 PM

Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 10, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
Covenant has beautiful cinematography and sets. The practical and CGI effects are fantastic (aside from some creature CGI). Nothing about the look or production feels cheap or anything like a TV movie/straight to cable film.

Say what you will about the story, pacing, or characters but cheap and straight to cable? No

Yeah, I don't get his point either. It looks like a typical $100+ million movie. I'd say Prometheus still has the edge in visuals but Covenant's writing is definitely an improvement.

I'd rank Covenant above Prometheus in visuals, but both are quite stunning movies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Icxc4FMIKqI

I prefer Covenant by far. It's just a more enjoyable film.


Prometheus in its concept could have been great. But the script and execution are just the worst.

I don't mind the new take on the space jockey, I don't mind an "alien-less" movie, but Prometheus completely fails on its own terms. uninspired visuals (yes, clothing, the spaceship interiors, and the planet are just blaaaand). it is also horribly paced, stuff just happens that doesn't impact the story, The space zombie, the abortion scene, the exploding head scene (omfg, what was that?) it all just happens without much of an impact while the movie shifts from the pyramid to the spaceship back and forth.

Alien covenant at least has a plot that flows from A-B with slightly more relatable characters and offers some solid creature action (not that that necessarily elevates the film as a whole, but it pleases the fans at least)

I've agreed with you on most of what you've said except in that I don't believe the visuals are uninspired, they had a major artistic impact on me during my time at art college, the Prometheus vessel itself I think is clever in that they've used a lot of Ron Cobb's architecture from his work on Alien but expanded it to show that it's a scientific vessel, with the appropriately clinical look you would associate with science but it has nuances of padding on the walls and corridors in places, with automatic doors and digital features telling you this is also a luxury vessel. 

Who could hate the gorgeous 1960's fishbowl inspired suits either?

In terms of the human aesthetic, Prometheus is far superior.

fix your taste.

Don't be an ass. If you can't contribute anything meaningful, don't bother.

The NASA (LIFE Daniel Espinosa) interior of the Covenant was so dull it made the third act even more of a slog, it also feels like extremely cheap corridor reuse. Covenant has has the yellow EVA suit that Tennessee wears and that's at least interesting looking, the Moebius inspired clothing of the crew I also like a great deal. However in every other department the human design team on Prometheus blows Covenant's out of the water.

I like the Moebius stuff as well. The hat cracks me up a bit tough, "don't need no helmet, I got my long flap hat on."

The space suits are way to Hollywoodish and sexy in Prometheus. the bubble suits where cool in covenant as I felt they were made more plausible. the ones in Prometheus looked like set decorations, which fairly, they were.

The rest in the covenant is on the same level pretty much. Even the guns are lazy. I like how the Prometheus crew utilizes laser guns (was that a laser shotgun?) but covenant went back to regular weapons (with green lights nonetheless, another AVP tribute Ridley?)

Alien was futuristic in a sense it wasn't trying too hard where I feel the new movies are, especially Prometheus.

I feel neither movies pulled of the Gigeresque environments either, Neither in design nor execution, WHere in ALIEN it looked like the moist inside of a carcass, I can tell its spraypainted fiberglass in Prometheus/Covenant.

Quote from: StrangeShape on Jun 10, 2018, 01:01:30 AM
As far as the topic at hand, I much prefer Covenant. I like its darker vibe, I like its cheaper, straight-to-cable-almost feel. It works for it. I like the pacing, I like plenty about it. I dont like certain mythological ideas that it presents but thats another thing. As a story/movie, Covenant wins over Prometheus for sure

Last night I saw Prometheus and then immediately Covenant, and while I don't feel it as a "straight-to-cable-almost" flick, it definitely felt cheaper compared to the first prequel. For me, Covenant wins over Prometheus for its cohesive story and its soundtrack, and regardless of whether you like it or not, there is a real story there and not just an expensive prologue whose only purpose is to ask questions from beginning to end (although I gotta admit that Prometheus opened the door to a lot of possibilities for future sequels, even with the revelation that the Jockeys are just big humans). However, and with the exception of the uninspired and boring rabid caveman (aka Fifield zombie mutation), in general, I liked the designs of the creatures of both movies.

Having said this:

Prometheus visuals > Alien Covenant visuals

Alien Covenant story > Prometheus story

Alien Covenant soundtrack > Prometheus soundtrack

Prometheus creature design = Alien Covenant creature design

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 10, 2018, 06:52:49 PM
The NASA (LIFE Daniel Espinosa) interior of the Covenant was so dull it made the third act even more of a slog, it also feels like extremely cheap corridor reuse. Covenant has has the yellow EVA suit that Tennessee wears and that's at least interesting looking, the Moebius inspired clothing of the crew I also like a great deal. However in every other department the human design team on Prometheus blows Covenant's out of the water.

Totally agree. Besides, I don't feel too much love for the Engineers city. I'm not saying that the design is horrible and I know there's a gothic vibe there, but I wasn't impressed with the final product anyway. And while I wasn't waiting for Giger's hell, I would have liked something more memorable and less average. David´s lab was the only interesting thing in the entire city in my opinion.

The hall of heads was cool as well.

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ShcIZRwAVH0/WOTFOjpwCfI/AAAAAAAAg4Q/VVJnpsej8ZwXgvWzRxKIh9bJCkQq0Sm2wCPcB/s1600/hall%2Bof%2Bheads.png)

I prefer the Prometheus sanctuary, but I guess it's just my personal taste.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-eIJrIH4Woxg%2FT5GDZ-GHGaI%2FAAAAAAAABVA%2F6I5JP6c_-X0%2Fs1600%2F425402_3240046199458_1215888587_33476713_1431752243_n.jpg&hash=d399208a62401beae86cc1f7e736ba7569e44601)

Definitely one of the better sets in Prometheus.



Yet a tad bit fiberglassy....

Quote from: bobby brown on Jun 10, 2018, 08:23:18 PM
The hall of heads was cool as well.

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ShcIZRwAVH0/WOTFOjpwCfI/AAAAAAAAg4Q/VVJnpsej8ZwXgvWzRxKIh9bJCkQq0Sm2wCPcB/s1600/hall%2Bof%2Bheads.png)

Like I said, I prefer Covenant's story. But still, sometimes I feel that there was an unofficial story about the Engineers, something that never saw the light of day in the final product. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I'm very interested in the speculations of the artists who worked in Covenant, because they craft their own story in their heads while they are designing this stuff, even if that premise doesn't fit with the actual script:

QuoteAcross the stage, construction resumes on a 'Hall of Heads', Engineer faces looming like Easter Island statues, with steps leading into nothing between them. "I don't know if you call the Engineers a race, but they're a civilisation, " says production designer Chris Seagers. "We discover the wheel and fire. The Engineers discovered a method of travel, something magnetic.  This Hall of Heads thing, was there a hierarchy? How did they store the information? Was this a library? There's a whole other movie there." (Empire June 2017) (http://alienexplorations.blogspot.com/2017/04/alien-covenant-hall-of-heads.html)

Maybe, while they are crafting this world, they are trying to figure out what happened in David's lab before the arrival of the character to Planet 4; was it a ceremonial place? there were sacrifices there? and I also get that feeling when I'm watching viral videos like this:

I'd love another movie set on Planet 4, where they explore the city and the Engineer's culture more.

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jun 10, 2018, 11:18:52 PM
I'd love another movie set on Planet 4, where they explore the city and the Engineer's culture more.

I'd prefer to maintain the mystery.

Quote from: The Old One on Jun 10, 2018, 11:21:15 PM

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jun 10, 2018, 11:18:52 PM
I'd love another movie set on Planet 4, where they explore the city and the Engineer's culture more.

I'd prefer to maintain the mystery.

I like facts and/or possible explanations. Like they give in proper documentaries.
They can still leave certain elements unexplained or mysterious.

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jun 09, 2018, 08:09:54 AM
If Prometheus is supposed to be the first part in a trilogy, I think it's more logical to show a creature that looks less similar to the xeno.

Fair enough (personal taste and all that).
Over the years online what I've found is that most criticisms of "Prometheus" are based on people not liking the ideas from Jon Spaihts in his scripts.
It seems you don't like the large "dark gray" Ultramorph described in the draft script by Spaihts which is fine with me.

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jun 09, 2018, 08:09:54 AM
If you think the deacon is dark gray, we have different opinions on colours. To me it's more black/dark blue/dark green but not dark grey like the ultramorph that's described.

Yes, the Deacon is dark blue/black. But Huante said that the color of the large creatures in "Prometheus" were supposed to be white. From Huante;

Quoteit was supposed to be the earlier version of this ... and white

The draft script's color for the Ultramorph, dark grey, (compared with dark blue/black and white) is closer to dark blue/black.

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jun 09, 2018, 08:09:54 AM
Just do a google image search for dark grey and compare it to the deacon. Dark grey is closer to the neomorph and the concept art for the ultramorph.

- I did the search. Result; the Neomorph is not close to dark grey.

* The origin of the look of the Neomorph is based on a creature created by Jon Spaihts in his "Prometheus" draft script.

QuoteThe Neomorph's physical appearance has been noted as being similar to the Beluga-Xenomorph from the early Prometheus script Alien: Engineers.

http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Neomorph

The Neomorph is similar to the white color of the creatures designed by Huante.

(https://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Neomorph-in-Alien-Covenant.jpg)

* A white car.

(https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2314/2757009799_fb9d5c2e86_o.jpg)

* A dark grey car.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkucynski.com%2Fgs_road7.jpg&hash=f9e91d2eeb90555861465c46e449e74d6d941534)

- Your argument as I understand it is that the Neomorph is closer in color to the dark grey car.
I don't agree.
The Neomorph is closer in color to the white car.

* The Deacon, dark blue/black;

(https://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/deacon_prometheusmovie_still.jpg?w=650&h=341)

- With these choices, the dark blue / black Deacon is closer in color to the dark grey car.

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jun 09, 2018, 08:09:54 AM
I guess Huenta has a different point of view on the evolution of the creature,

It's more than that. Huante said that the Ultramorph did not exist in a script.
He's wrong. 
And Huante is unaware that Spaihts wanted the Ultramorph to be dark grey.

;)

You proved my point.

Earlier post

Quote from: bb-15 on Jun 09, 2018, 07:35:36 AM
- This is extremely important in understanding why Steven Messing called the creature in the sculpture the Ultramorph. As I wrote this creature is also the Deacon.
1. The Jon Spaihts draft script says this creature is the Ultramorph.
2. Spaihts describes the color of the creature as "dark gray".
The Deacon in the film is a dark gray.

Previous post

Quote from: bb-15 on Jun 11, 2018, 05:12:23 AMYes, the Deacon is dark blue/black.

Interpretations of colors aside, the ultramorph in Spaihts' script looks more like a neomorph than the movie deacon. Both in appearance and color.
Bring me back to my first point, that I think the resemblance of the movie deacon is too close to xeno.

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Jun 10, 2018, 08:40:42 PM
I prefer the Prometheus sanctuary, but I guess it's just my personal taste.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-eIJrIH4Woxg%2FT5GDZ-GHGaI%2FAAAAAAAABVA%2F6I5JP6c_-X0%2Fs1600%2F425402_3240046199458_1215888587_33476713_1431752243_n.jpg&hash=d399208a62401beae86cc1f7e736ba7569e44601)

I'm with you here - if only for it actually looks more like the Derelict and more like Giger, even if it's not quite there.