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Poll

Which species do you prefer and why?

Aliens
634 (49.5%)
Predators
648 (50.5%)

Total Members Voted: 1196

Author Topic: Alien or Predator?  (Read 376282 times)

BlueMarsalis79
Feb 18, 2021, 02:45:54 PM
Reply #3735 on: Feb 18, 2021, 02:45:54 PM
We don't actually see a massive number of confirmed Alien deaths in any Alien franchise film, Aliens included and then judging by the punishment the one in Alien³ and the one in Alien Covenant takes from being exposed to extreme heat and surviving, to surviving weaponry from the twenty third century and even the one in Alien being smart enough to take out the lights that required an understanding of electricity's relationship with the former it's fair to say people still underestimate them.

I think it's fair to say people get the impression a lot more of them die than actually the case, and just like the expanded universe often depicts (in the past anyway) the over the top bravado of the marines then treats it as gospel truth, it often does similar things with Alien and Predator conventions including them but only understanding them at a surface level.

Another example of this being the way the expanded universe often depicts Weyland-Yutani Corporation, as not simply one of a number of apathetic powerful institutions exploiting it's employees for profit, but yes actually the only one not only doing that for no discernible benefit but also physically owning everything in sight such as in AVP 2010.


Voodoo Magic
Feb 18, 2021, 03:12:19 PM
Reply #3736 on: Feb 18, 2021, 03:12:19 PM
We don't actually see a massive number of confirmed Alien deaths in any Alien franchise film, Aliens included and then judging by the punishment the one in Alien³ and the one in Alien Covenant takes from being exposed to extreme heat and surviving, to surviving weaponry from the twenty third century and even the one in Alien being smart enough to take out the lights that required an understanding of electricity's relationship with the former it's fair to say people still underestimate them.

I think it's fair to say people get the impression a lot more of them die than actually the case, and just like the expanded universe often depicts (in the past anyway) the over the top bravado of the marines then treats it as gospel truth, it often does similar things with Alien and Predator conventions including them but only understanding them at a surface level.

Another example of this being the way the expanded universe often depicts Weyland-Yutani Corporation, as not simply one of a number of apathetic powerful institutions exploiting it's employees for profit, but yes actually the only one not only doing that for no discernible benefit but also physically owning everything in sight such as in AVP 2010.

We do see enough Xenomorphs killed in Aliens though, and Predators are far greater warriors in every way than the Colonial Marines.

All things being equal it's the technology and intelligence that makes the stronger foe. You take humans and strip them of their weapons and what chance does he or she have against the lion or the gorilla? It's their intelligence and their ability to craft tools that *makes them the greater foe. And while the Xenomorph has intelligence, it's not to a degree where it can process science, religion and culture. And that is why the Xenomorph will always be the weaker foe, but still can better its opponents with tactics and the element of surprise. In situational confrontations. That's how it's so deadly - its instinct! It knows better! It knows better not attack the entire crew of the Nostromo together but wait until they break apart, and they are unarmed blue collar workers! A fully armed Predator would have no qualms doing so, but would only question where is the sport in that.

* edited for grammar

« Last Edit: Feb 18, 2021, 03:59:22 PM by Voodoo Magic »

BlueMarsalis79
Feb 18, 2021, 03:22:30 PM
Reply #3737 on: Feb 18, 2021, 03:22:30 PM
Quote
And though the Xenomorph's intelligent, it's not to the degree it can process science, religion and culture.

You do not know this for a fact. Advent does imply otherwise. As does Ridley Scott's various commentaries.


Voodoo Magic
Feb 18, 2021, 03:48:56 PM
Reply #3738 on: Feb 18, 2021, 03:48:56 PM
Quote
And though the Xenomorph's intelligent, it's not to the degree it can process science, religion and culture.

You do not know this for a fact. Advent does imply otherwise. As does Ridley Scott's various commentaries.

Is that your headcanon then? Science, religion culture all exist within the Xenomorphs? Ability to reason, and introspection? Mathematical and Scientific development, and we'll see their technology one day? (I'm not teasing you here - just genuinely inquiring about your perspective.)


Corporal Hicks
Feb 18, 2021, 04:00:20 PM
Reply #3739 on: Feb 18, 2021, 04:00:20 PM
It was actually one of O'Bannon's earliest intents. The Alien was so violent because it was birthed outside its culture.


Voodoo Magic
Feb 18, 2021, 04:13:27 PM
Reply #3740 on: Feb 18, 2021, 04:13:27 PM
It was actually one of O'Bannon's earliest intents. The Alien was so violent because it was birthed outside its culture.

Yes but, in context of this conversation, to what degree? We know ants have what we can interpret as culture and society, and divisions within, and communication and the ability to work together, but we will not be seeing ants develop new weaponry or vehicles of travel anytime soon. So while we can see a level of intelligence, it doesn't mean it's advanced.


Eighty-Five
Feb 18, 2021, 04:22:08 PM
Reply #3741 on: Feb 18, 2021, 04:22:08 PM
Idk if having greater technology equates to greater intelligence necessarily. Some sea mammals like dolphins may actually have greater cognitive abilities than we do, but they don't create technology. You could argue that's because they're physically incapable due to anatomy, but even if they had hands, would they use them to build? They essentially live in an environment where they can fly and food just floats around in clouds.

Given how physiologically superior aliens are, would they ever have a need to create technology like we do? They can construct their own habitats with biologically-produced materials, survive in extremely hostile conditions, and their eggs seem to last a very long time.

I personally quite like the idea that aliens who are able to develop a hive over a longer period of time may form some sort of society, outgrowing the 'mindless aggression' stage and becoming  something more complex. It's an interesting concept that I wish had been explored somewhere.


BlueMarsalis79
Feb 18, 2021, 04:34:06 PM
Reply #3742 on: Feb 18, 2021, 04:34:06 PM
We see David's birth in the presence of Peter Weyland with him already being aware of everything, as we see with him playing piano immediately, anemic without the orchestra. We learn that the Alien's in fact a form of artificial intelligence born from the Pathogen, an artificial intelligence itself, shaped by man's perfect artificial intelligence.

The reason it's intelligence goes beyond that of the expected being that, it's not an animal or human in the sense we define them, it's the newest part of the lineage of man creating man over and over. Engineers humans, humans Engineers, in macro and micro.

David creates the Alien in his own image, it is the conclusion of his life perspective, so to him the perfect being's both sapient and sentient but with all but necessity itself taken away. For all our successes the biological lineage of creation itself's a failure, it's not just Alien to us, it is Alien to life itself.




Voodoo Magic
Feb 18, 2021, 05:10:56 PM
Reply #3743 on: Feb 18, 2021, 05:10:56 PM
Idk if having greater technology equates to greater intelligence necessarily. Some sea mammals like dolphins may actually have greater cognitive abilities than we do, but they don't create technology. You could argue that's because they're physically incapable due to anatomy, but even if they had hands, would they use them to build? They essentially live in an environment where they can fly and food just floats around in clouds.

Given how physiologically superior aliens are, would they ever have a need to create technology like we do? They can construct their own habitats with biologically-produced materials, survive in extremely hostile conditions, and their eggs seem to last a very long time.

I personally quite like the idea that aliens who are able to develop a hive over a longer period of time may form some sort of society, outgrowing the 'mindless aggression' stage and becoming  something more complex. It's an interesting concept that I wish had been explored somewhere.

What I find interesting is dolphins are one of the few creatures that have self-awareness. Chimpanzees too. You put a Gorilla in front of a mirror, they see another Gorilla. But you put a Chimpanzee in front of a mirror and put mud on their face, a chimp will see that mud through the mirror and use their reflection to wipe it off.

I'm not certain how physiologically superior Aliens are in some regards ala the perfect organism, when they require other lifeforms to reproduce, but their defense mechanisms and ability to survive the elements are most impressive and superior!

Ultimately, in regards to the need to create technology or not, I believe the answer is yes just in the context of Alien vs Predator superiority. Sure, Predators amp the difficulty level for themselves by using melee weapons instead of plasma casters etc. but the day their motivation changes from a challenging hunt to extermination, while there will be casualties depending on how surgically they want to do it, either way it's no longer a contest.


Kradan
Feb 18, 2021, 05:55:18 PM
Reply #3744 on: Feb 18, 2021, 05:55:18 PM
Funny coincidence: I was just re-reading second of Rage War books, Aliens Invasion and there was a character who theorized that Xenomorphs are smarter than most people give them credit and actually compared them to dolphins

Anyway, I like the idea of Aliens being able to comprehend science, religion or culture, potentialy having highly-organised society. Unfortunately, there's not much evidence of it in 6 Alien movies and 2 AvP ones, at least for me. Maybe they lack inteligence of a human or Predator but it doesn't neccesarily make them less of a threat in my eyes. Aliens as I see them and as they're portrayed in many stories are creatures that will always look for a weakness in its enemy's defense: using vents to navigate on board of Nostromo in Alien, crashing dropship, cutting off lights in Aliens, kinda iffy but I still think Runner was able to f**k with Golic's mind to get him to release it (if you're going by Theatrical cut it doesn't even get captured), using its own blood to escape holding cell, using liguid nitrogen against humans, creating an underwater trap to weaken humans and make them lower their guard in Resurrection,  despite all their technological wonders we see in flashback sequence in AvP movie that Predators can't always contain them too, AvPR proofs it even further. There're also first AvP comic, AvP2, Mark Verheiden's Trilogy, Rogue, Phalanx etc.

Single Predator probaly would be able to kill dozen of Aliens without breaking a sweat - but as long, as there is one Alien, one facehugger, one egg - it will retreat, lick its wounds and patiently wait for an opportunity to strike back

I think it's fair to say people get the impression a lot more of them die than actually the case, and just like the expanded universe often depicts (in the past anyway) the over the top bravado of the marines then treats it as gospel truth, it often does similar things with Alien and Predator conventions including them but only understanding them at a surface level.

Agreed, It's kinda irritating how often writers miss the point of Aliens. Marines did kill bunch of Aliens, yes - but in doing so they lost half of they own men and were scared shitless. It's what I like about Aliens - you can kill an Alien, yes - but your chances to die are still high as f**k



Kradan
Feb 18, 2021, 06:05:21 PM
Reply #3746 on: Feb 18, 2021, 06:05:21 PM
I'm not. I'm Alien fan through and through


BlueMarsalis79
Feb 18, 2021, 06:08:50 PM
Reply #3747 on: Feb 18, 2021, 06:08:50 PM
I guarantee that's not the case. As it's pretty much a theme of the Alien films that one always survives to start it all again. That's not the case with the Predator films.

We don't know if they even have a civilization large enough to be capable of a policy of mass extermination.

To paraphrase my brother: "The Aliens are like sand in your hand, no matter how tightly you crush it in your grip, somewhere one will always end up slipping through your fingers."


Kradan
Feb 18, 2021, 06:09:52 PM
Reply #3748 on: Feb 18, 2021, 06:09:52 PM
You have a brother ?


Eighty-Five
Feb 18, 2021, 06:23:58 PM
Reply #3749 on: Feb 18, 2021, 06:23:58 PM
I assumed Predfans because you both act like killing aliens isn't really a challenge for them. Which begs the question of why they bother hunting them or why it's such a significant part of their culture in many depictions.

I'd echo Trash Queen on the front of Predator civilisation too. We have no indication they have any kind of central government or ability to coordinate outside of the small groups we usually see them in. Also, we've seen that they're pretty prone to infighting between those groups, in both the movies and especially in the EU. Not sure that you can make the argument that they'd easily organise a wholesale extermination of the aliens since there's little indication they are numerous or unified enough to do so.

Yes, their technology gives them an edge but in the core theatrical releases of the movies Aliens aren't exactly shown to blindly rush into overwhelming opposition. They're ambush predators. And when they reach a planet with abundant host organisms, their numbers can grow stupidly fast.

Predators' advantage against aliens is their tech, but the same could be said for humans and it doesn't stop them sustaining terrible casualties every time they cross paths with the xenos. And humans are way more organised and numerous than Predators are ever shown to be.


 

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