Hey all,
So with Disney/Searchlight studios change from Fox we actually have a good chance at a reset of the timeline a bit like Dark Horses Fire and Stone series did.
As we know expanded shared universes are all the rage now, Monsterverse the MCU being two big strong ones so it would make sense for Searchlight to take a page from Darkhorse and pick what films make it before they produce more (I think a hard reboot is unlikely).
So regardless if you like or dislike the films the question is what could you see become cannon? What other owned franchises might make it into this new AvPunniverse?
Personally I can see them keeping all bar the two Alien vs Predator films due to the Weyland inclusion that Ridely Scott complicated in Prometheus.
Predator series has only been modern day so that's not an issue and I'm sure clever writing can fix the Predator Hunter suit be it doesn't work and they reverse engineer it or it gets destroyed. That being my only major wanted change to the Predator series to be included as they dont really drop any universe shattering bombs.
Alien I personally would keep them all as Ripelys story is pretty much over and bar a cameo from Ripley8 (Same for Dutch in Predator) I feel like they can move on keeping established lore.
Predators hunting the strongest prey means storyline they are super easy to write in so no need to shoehorn Alien lore into those films unless you move them to the Alien current time in which case a few company and colonial marines references would be more than enough.
As for Aliens I would like them to keep the Engineers at the top of the food chain but a dying out species that appears to have fought with an emerging race (the Predators) having reason for there vibe of being prepared for war with a race they didn't create but one that would take interest in them. After that short fore shadowing continue as normal following a new fresh cast maybe even a Marine unit.
Then bring Predator to an Alien story for the first AvP of this new merger (for the love of the Engineers! Please do this Xenomorphs in the past just bleugh). Keep it to an encounter with that Hunter species almost like a mission and then films can break back to solo films without needing to focus on including the other species in their films.
As for a series I'd see being a good fit (although Sony owns it atm) I'd like to see a "Bug hunt" where Starship troopers is rebooted in and say their
Federation Marine Corps are non Weyland Yutani marines in another sector of the universe maybe even leading to a Xenomorph Warrior bug hybrid?
So your thoughts on if this is something that might happen and how would you envision it?
-TJ88
It would not surprise me if they did what they did with Star Wars and hit reset with the films being the core source material, and spin new content off that.
It would also not surprise me if they ditched Alien 3 and Resurrection.
Quote from: SM on Mar 01, 2020, 07:31:43 PM
It would not surprise me if they did what they did with Star Wars and hit reset with the films being the core source material, and spin new content off that.
It would also not surprise me if they ditched Alien 3 and Resurrection.
I can see that as a possibility get J.C to direct a true successor to Aliens that blends better with Prometheus etc.
So I was spitballing this idea with a friend and he reminded me that Blade runner has been hinted and rumoured to be shared universe with the Alien films. Also that timelines can be explained by misinformation or different colonies setting up there own history so to speak and films set in the past can still exist in cannon like Predator. So we had a non license based conversation about existing film franchises that could fit together. Bear in mind for fans for most franchises this is of course sacrilege and just thought exercise.
Okay so the universe is set around the Engineers and all their terrible creations.
Engineer creates mankind as seen in Prometheus but also creates weapons such as the black goo and The Thing.
Meanwhile and emerging race called the Yautja or Predators grow into a threat as the engineers race becomes stagnant. This later leads to wars between the two where the Engineer creature more deadly weapons to fight the Yautja unwittingly giving them a purpose and making them stronger.
We start with the Thing series where the movies stay cannon but later it is revealed the Thing was created by the Engineers to infiltrate their enemies home worlds and destroy them from the inside without them knowing until it was to late and the seeds of mistrust were already sown. Unfortunately the creation was to difficult to control and direct as its survival drive would always take over, with no other option the Engineers set to destroying this failure only for several to realise this and to escape using the engineers and their ships to flee one being the Thing on earth as seen in the two films. This leads to the engineers work into the Black goo.
The Predator film series now takes place as normal (we decided Avp and AvP:R would be ripped from cannon here so no Predators teaching mankind or existence of Xenomorphs to early). A push on Yutani as a company backing the taskforce dealing with the XT Predators would be inserted here.
Prometheus/Alien: C happens with a 3rd film linking them to the ship found in the original Alien David's dream come true. A subtle hint to the Engineers war with the Predators on a mural in the background to build the world again.
On a planet dubbed by Weyland as "New Earth" (due to them taking old earths countries and cities names and starting their own calendar which explains the year differences) in a rivals companies sector of owned space. We have the Blade Runner films taking place this franchise will link in with another film showing them dealing with the failed synthetic uprising as described by Call in Alien Resurrection (Only The AvP films where cut from our cannon).
Alien 1-3 happen with Alien isolation getting made cannon in some form of TV show, film etc.
Meanwhile we get a Starship Troopers reboot (it's old enough and got to wacky that we see it getting a cut to be moulded as a connecting film) this takes part in another companies sector of space with a slightly more series tone think of a mix between the original ST and Aliens marines.
Speaking of marines one liners like your part of the Terran Federation not some backwater opperation like the UMSC and how they need to destroy the bugs not only for the good of Humanity but to stop traitors like Weyland-Yutani from exploiting their enemies against them. Once again they will refer to themselves as having Earth in their system (forming a theme like in the existing Alien franchise where we are not sure what has happened to eartha d with these inclusions who actually is in possession of the real earth?).
We would also have hints that the engineers created the Bugs but once again it didn't end well. What can I say mostly it's just another Bug hunt.
Now we get interesting we get Alien:R which as we know has a bit of a time jump. With the films working hard to create narrative bridges between existing films while still being good standalone films we get a new Alien (not prequel but Sequel) film and a Predator film set after 2379 (W-Y time) setting us up for the vs film while establishing the two films in their new Disney owned setting.
Then we get the Alien Vs Predator reboot film set after Alien: R having it play out like an Alien film but witha 3rd party being added with the predators (but more of a slasher calculated threat building more of difference between the two species other than 1 kinda has honour). I'd add reason for The Predator using upgrades here as in the humans have uncovered a hidden Engineer base with a new War mkde6Engineer and they have come to wipe them out. David having perfected the Xenomorph cycle the Engineers have weaponized them (similar to like that of the comics with pheromones etc) only for it to of course all go wrong. The outcome leaving both the Engineer race and Weyland-Yutanis fate uncertain.
The films can then break off and do their own thing again even if its prequels set in modern times or even earlier or more future styles films.
Would be a tricky adventure but if done right it leaves fans of most of the films happy as their exisiting films dont really change, with the trend of shared film universes being set up. Personally I'd be okay with the more crazy shared universe adventures to be in a animated or tv series format where fans can regard them as soft cannon if they dont like them or even disregard them.
Do you guys think Disney would try something like this or more likely to previous films are all soft cannon bar the original Alien and Predator films and here is our version of their universe?
-TJ88
No, I do not think Disney would try something like this.
Quote from: SM on Mar 15, 2020, 09:31:31 PM
No, I do not think Disney would try something like this.
I agree they are more likely just going to expand on the existing Alien and Predator films but was fun to think up the most outlandish scenario.
I feel like to make it a shared universe it needs another franchise or at least they need to add something to make it more than a VS universe.
The Monsterverse was always set for Godzilla vs Kong but they added Monarch and the other Kaijus in a setting that fleshed them out, I'd hate for there just to be a AvP set up where we never really get a winner. Maybe the Marines should get a elite group that can really be a 3rd contender rather than fodder?
-TJ88
I hope they scrap everything except Alien, Aliens, Predator-The Predator+Hunting Grounds fixes to the shitty retcons and Alien Isolation
Completely ignore the prequels and never try to explore where the Xenos come from ever again
I'm suspecting, based on how Disney's been currently dealing with the Alien/Predator franchise, that they're going to operate on a general rule where essentially the twelve films we already have (with a possible particular focus on the two AVP films) will be the base for the Disney canon and that they will add the comics and more expanded universe material surrounding this base canon and expanding outward from there.
But as it stands, the AVP films and the Alien prequels are incompatible.
Disney doesn't seem to be 'currently dealing' with anything.
Yeah, I don't think there's a single new project in the pipeline (outside of the Marvel stuff) that isn't a holdover from the transition where Disney was acquiring Fox.
Beyond the Marvel stuff, the only thing Disney/20th Century Studios seems to have explicitly "dealt with" is killing that AVP Netflix anime project.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 01, 2020, 01:32:30 PM
But as it stands, the AVP films and the Alien prequels are incompatible.
Not true in the slightest.
Quote from: SM on Nov 01, 2020, 04:03:59 PM
Disney doesn't seem to be 'currently dealing' with anything.
I don't know what that's supposed to mean.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 01, 2020, 07:27:21 PM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 01, 2020, 01:32:30 PM
But as it stands, the AVP films and the Alien prequels are incompatible.
Not true in the slightest.
"No one understands the lonely perfection of my dreams. I found perfection here. I've created it. A perfect organism."Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 01, 2020, 07:27:21 PM
Quote from: SM on Nov 01, 2020, 04:03:59 PM
Disney doesn't seem to be 'currently dealing' with anything.
I don't know what that's supposed to mean.
Disney/20th Century Studios have done nothing at all to date to establish any new stance on "canon" beyond what we already had prior to the acquisition, which three distinct franchises in "Alien/Prometheus," "Predator," and "AVP." The only things Disney/20th Century Studios have really done in their time since acquiring the properties is kill off the only AVP project that was in development (the Netflix anime) and move Alien/Predator from Dark Horse to Marvel. Everything else, like Dark Horse and Titan's output, the upcoming video game, etc. is all holdover from pre-acquisition.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 01, 2020, 07:34:35 PM"No one understands the lonely perfection of my dreams. I found perfection here. I've created it. A perfect organism."
"Oh captain." David shake his head sadly. "Acknowledge beauty when you see it. Even if it's appearance disturbs you, surely you could admire the skill that went into its design. In case you were wondering, I had nothing to do with it. It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the Engineers' skill. And also, I suppose of their hubris. Would that I could create something so perfect in its function, he added. I try, but I don't have thousands of years of practice at biological and genetic engineering. I only have my pitiable programming on which to draw. That, and 10 years of earnest effort on my own behalf. I have learned only a little, yet a soldier on, hoping all ways to achieve something like this, always striving to do better, to improve. That's what the engineers did, I suppose. That is what someone playing God should do." Further noting; https://sites.google.com/view/xenoversecenter/xenoblog/2020-archive/on-the-problem-of-david-and-the-alien
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 01, 2020, 07:34:35 PMDisney/20th Century Studios have done nothing at all to date to establish any new stance on "canon" beyond what we already had prior to the acquisition, which three distinct franchises in "Alien/Prometheus," "Predator," and "AVP." The only things Disney/20th Century Studios have really done in their time since acquiring the properties is kill off the only AVP project that was in development (the Netflix anime) and move Alien/Predator from Dark Horse to Marvel. Everything else, like Dark Horse and Titan's output, the upcoming video game, etc. is all holdover from pre-acquisition.
I didn't exactly suggest they had done much to begin with, but I'm more talking about how they've spoken about it and the little things they have done thus far. Noting of course (as we have discussed enough already, and which I'm sure you don't want to get into again) that there's no justifiable grounds for asserting the existence of supposedly "three distinct franchises with
Alien/Prometheus,
Predator, and
AVP" but this is still merely hearsay which is contradicted by their products, not acknowledged by their fanbase, as well as logically incoherent (with a few more notes regarding personal integrity of the source of the rumor that are better left ignored), regardless how you feel about it, and you will find no ally in me in this regard and continually insisting upon said rumor will be evidently ineffective and pointless because of these reasons.
Alan Dean Foster is also the man that tried to change the events of Alien 3 in his novelization because he didn't like the movie; I'd hardly consider his book's stance on the matter of David creating the Alien a final word on the subject, especially when it doesn't line up with any draft of the script that he might have been working off of. Even the way it was written in the book, it reads like nothing more than some snarky aside from ADF trying to poke a hole in a part of the movie that he didn't like.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 01, 2020, 08:20:29 PM
Alan Dean Foster is also the man that tried to change the events of Alien 3 in his novelization because he didn't like the movie; I'd hardly consider his book's stance on the matter of David creating the Alien a final word on the subject, especially when it doesn't line up with any draft of the script that he might have been working off of. Even the way it was written in the book, it reads like nothing more than some snarky aside from ADF trying to poke a hole in a part of the movie that he didn't like.
Suit yourself, but I rest my case.
For the sake of storytelling, I rather not have an Engineer/Predator war, rather have them come across each other for the first time on screen. I did like how Fire and Stone treated the crossover of the two species of Ahab searching and studying the Engineers. However the panels were slightly shallow and would be interesting to see their initial meeting. How do they feel, think, react to each other. It was like the moment to how the Engineer in Prometheus interacted with Weyland and company, what was going in its mind when it encountered humans for the first time and what could have changed if Weyland didn't demand for immortality? The fact that it didn't kill them right away up until Weyland demanded for immortality indicated that things could have gone much more smoothly. No more war scales, The Predator executed that idea of a human/ Predator war terribly, I want none of that.
Elements of Prometheus can exist in the AVPverse, as the concept themselves are not exclusive to Alien themselves. After all, if Fire and Stone is to go with, it seems like the events of AVP/AVPR never occurred, therefore implying the Prometheus version of the Weyland origins is the dominant canon. One can say the same for the AVPverse, where the Prometheus Weyland origins never occurred, Yutani has the plasma pistol in their possession, and you can build off from there.
Now, I am wondering if any new upcoming lore from Hunting Grounds will alter the course of the AVPverse, seeing how both timelines coexist with each other. Like say with the presence of Predator technology, will it really alter human tech and things to come in the future. I recall that the plasma rifle in Colonial Marines is canon, hinting that maybe it is derived from Pred tech? Not to mention that if experimental medical treatment enabled Dutch to gain immortality, how else can this new tech be explored in future stories?
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 01, 2020, 08:33:14 PM
For the sake of storytelling, I rather not have an Engineer/Predator war, rather have them come across each other for the first time on screen. I did like how Fire and Stone treated the crossover of the two species of Ahab searching and studying the Engineers. However the panels were slightly shallow and would be interesting to see their initial meeting. How do they feel, think, react to each other. It was like the moment to how the Engineer in Prometheus interacted with Weyland and company, what was going in its mind when it encountered humans for the first time and what could have changed if Weyland didn't demand for immortality? The fact that it didn't kill them right away up until Weyland demanded for immortality indicated that things could have gone much more smoothly. No more war scales, The Predator executed that idea of a human/ Predator war terribly, I want none of that.
I approve of the concept of an ancient war between Yautja and Engineers, perhaps even being yet another example of created beings rebelling against their creators.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 01, 2020, 08:33:14 PM
Elements of Prometheus can exist in the AVPverse, as the concept themselves are not exclusive to Alien themselves. After all, if Fire and Stone is to go with, it seems like the events of AVP/AVPR never occurred, therefore implying the Prometheus version of the Weyland origins is the dominant canon. One can say the same for the AVPverse, where the Prometheus Weyland origins never occurred, Yutani has the plasma pistol in their possession, and you can build off from there.
AVP/AVPR already exists in the same universe as
Prometheus/Covenant. Also, how does
Fire and Stone supposedly suggest that
AVP/AVPR never occurred, and that especially when they seem to reference the film franchise? The
Fire and Stone saga acknowledges all four film franchises. There's no need to overcomplicate things. Just acknowledge all twelve films.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 01, 2020, 08:33:14 PM
Now, I am wondering if any new upcoming lore from Hunting Grounds will alter the course of the AVPverse, seeing how both timelines coexist with each other. Like say with the presence of Predator technology, will it really alter human tech and things to come in the future. I recall that the plasma rifle in Colonial Marines is canon, hinting that maybe it is derived from Pred tech? Not to mention that if experimental medical treatment enabled Dutch to gain immortality, how else can this new tech be explored in future stories?
That was the whole point of Miss Yutani acquiring the Yautja plasma gun at the end of
AVPR, that humanity did acquire Yautja technology and used it as the basis for the advanced technology we see in the
Alien films.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 01, 2020, 08:49:05 PM
I approve of the concept of an ancient war between Yautja and Engineers, perhaps even being yet another example of created beings rebelling against their creators.
Because new lore shows that the Predators that we know now had a different set of creators, the Amengi. Amengi found the Hish, ancestors of the Predator race, altered, modified, experimented, and enslaved them. Up till to the point that the Predators evolved to what we are accustomed to now, when they rebelled against the Amengi. Creation vs creator war has already been touched upon.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 01, 2020, 08:49:05 PM
AVP/AVPR already exists in the same universe as Prometheus/Covenant. Also, how does Fire and Stone supposedly suggest that AVP/AVPR never occurred, and that especially when they seem to reference the film franchise? The Fire and Stone saga acknowledges all four film franchises. There's no need to overcomplicate things. Just acknowledge all twelve films.
Proof? Peter Weyland and Charles Bishop Weyland are two very different people who created Weyland Corp and Weyland Industries, lived and died differently respectively.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 01, 2020, 08:49:05 PM
That was the whole point of Miss Yutani acquiring the Yautja plasma gun at the end of AVPR, that humanity did acquire Yautja technology and used it as the basis for the advanced technology we see in the Alien films.
Yeah I know, it was suggested for the AVP timeline.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 01, 2020, 09:12:16 PM
Because new lore shows that the Predators that we know now had a different set of creators, the Amengi. Amengi found the Hish, ancestors of the Predator race, altered, modified, experimented, and enslaved them. Up till to the point that the Predators evolved to what we are accustomed to now, when they rebelled against the Amengi.
Are the "Amengi" not Engineers? Were the Amengi or the Hish not created by the Engineers like they created life on Earth? There's still room open for the Engineers to have been the creators of Yautja.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 01, 2020, 09:12:16 PM
Creation vs creator war has already been touched upon.
Yes, but this would be just another example of that, and it would further make sense of their feud and follow the theme.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 01, 2020, 09:12:16 PM
Proof? Peter Weyland and Charles Bishop Weyland are two very different people who created Weyland Corp and Weyland Industries, lived and died differently respectively.
Proof of what exactly? Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland are considerably similar characters and their history and character is designed in such a way that they can be easily understood as the relationship of father and son, with the father paving the way for the son to rise to power after passing away eight years before the son ignited his iteration of the very same company and followed up on his father's vision for the company (which operates simultaneously under the titles of "Weyland Corporation" and "Weyland Industries" in both films). Further noting; https://sites.google.com/view/xenoversecenter/xenoblog/2020-archive/on-the-kinship-of-charles-and-peter-weyland
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 01, 2020, 09:12:16 PM
Yeah I know, it was suggested for the AVP timeline.
What do you mean?
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 01, 2020, 09:29:08 PM
Proof of what exactly? Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland are considerably similar characters and their history and character is designed in such a way that they can be easily understood as the relationship of father and son, with the father paving the way for the son to rise to power after passing away eight years before the son ignited his iteration of the very same company and followed up on his father's vision for the company (which operates simultaneously under the titles of "Weyland Corporation" and "Weyland Industries" in both films). Further noting; https://sites.google.com/view/xenoversecenter/xenoblog/2020-archive/on-the-kinship-of-charles-and-peter-weyland
"When I said to [Ridley Scott], 'You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies,' he just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process." - Damon Lindelof
They weren't "designed" to be compatible, or to be father and son. Ridley Scott didn't care one way or the other about what
Alien vs Predator had set up and was more than happy to overwrite it in order to tell his own story. And based on the viral timeline that was released for
Prometheus, which bore absolutely no reference to Charles Bishop Weyland or a previous iteration of the company, it seems that nobody at 20th Century Fox at the time really cared at all that he steamrolled over what the AVP movies had established.
Seriously.
Zealotry doesn't make for rewarding discussion.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 01, 2020, 09:59:49 PM
"When I said to [Ridley Scott], 'You know, Weyland was a character in one of the Alien Vs. Predator movies,' he just sort of looked at me like I had just slapped him in the face. That was the beginning, middle and end of all Alien Vs. Predator references in our story process." - Damon Lindelof
Still doesn't mean that references didn't slip through.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 01, 2020, 09:59:49 PM
They weren't "designed" to be compatible, or to be father and son.
It certainly would seem that way considering how well they fit together, and someone might very well have intended it.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 01, 2020, 09:59:49 PM
Ridley Scott didn't care one way or the other about what Alien vs Predator had set up and was more than happy to overwrite it in order to tell his own story.
Clearly, but thankfully it's Fox we listen to here, not Scott.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 01, 2020, 09:59:49 PM
And based on the viral timeline that was released for Prometheus, which bore absolutely no reference to Charles Bishop Weyland or a previous iteration of the company, it seems that nobody at 20th Century Fox at the time really cared at all that he steamrolled over what the AVP movies had established.
Not only could you chalk that up to mere licensing issues (as some insist upon suggesting) and perhaps even careless mistakes on the part of Fox, but the timeline describes Peter's birth as occurring while Charles was alive while describing one of Peter's parents as being a self-taught engineer very much like Charles (and never actually identifies the parent so that it could be ruled out), and the timeline actually does make what seems like an interesting reference to Charles Weyland in that it mentions Peter securing a patent for a synthetic trachea (a cure for lung cancer) on his 14th birthday on October 1st, 2004, just a few days before Charles died while suffering from lung cancer. Adding that if Fox (as judging from their products) are operating under the general rule that
AVP and
Prometheus exist in continuity with each other and Peter founded his iteration of the company (which goes under the two same titles of Weyland Corporation and Weyland Industries that Charles' iteration of the company went under) eight years after Charles died, then there's really no reason why we ought to assume they are not two different iterations of the same company.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Nov 01, 2020, 10:25:40 PM
Guys, don't waste your time
That I think is good advice for once!
Quote from: SM on Nov 01, 2020, 10:40:42 PM
Seriously.
Zealotry doesn't make for rewarding discussion.
Depends on what you mean.
It means we know how this story ends.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 01, 2020, 07:34:35 PM
"No one understands the lonely perfection of my dreams. I found perfection here. I've created it. A perfect organism."
No one understands the lonely perfection of my canon. I found perfection here.
I've created it. The personal canon.
Quote from: SM on Nov 01, 2020, 10:58:17 PM
It means we know how this story ends.
Judging from what can be seen here, agreed.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 01, 2020, 09:29:08 PM
Are the "Amengi" not Engineers? Were the Amengi or the Hish not created by the Engineers like they created life on Earth? There's still room open for the Engineers to have been the creators of Yautja.
No, Amengi and Engineers are two different races. One in insect like and the other humanoid. They have no relation and according to Predator history, the Amengi were the ones who done the alterations and enslaving. There is no room or mention of the Engineers.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 01, 2020, 09:29:08 PM
Proof of what exactly? Charles Weyland and Peter Weyland are considerably similar characters and their history and character is designed in such a way that they can be easily understood as the relationship of father and son, with the father paving the way for the son to rise to power after passing away eight years before the son ignited his iteration of the very same company and followed up on his father's vision for the company (which operates simultaneously under the titles of "Weyland Corporation" and "Weyland Industries" in both films). Further noting; https://sites.google.com/view/xenoversecenter/xenoblog/2020-archive/on-the-kinship-of-charles-and-peter-weyland
You sited me a fancanon site. I can't take that information seriously. I can at cite you three sources to how this is different:
Writers and Producers:
QuoteWeyland Corp and its founder Peter Weyland from Prometheus contradict the Weyland Industries origin portrayed in Alien vs. Predator. When Prometheus writer Damon Lindelof pointed this out to director Ridley Scott during the film's production, Scott made it clear that he had no intention of following the timeline laid out in the Alien vs. Predator films;[5] the subsequent film Alien: Covenant would cement the retcon of events. Interestingly, in Jon Spaihts' original script for Prometheus, titled Alien: Engineers, Weyland Corp was still referred to as Weyland Industries, the name used in Alien vs. Predator.[6] This was subsequently changed in later drafts. Despite the change, the company is still referred to as "Weyland Industries" at the end of the viral video Happy Birthday, David.
Peter Weyland's Origins
QuotePeter Weyland was born in Mumbai, India on October 1, 1990, to his mother, an Oxford-educated Professor of Comparative Mythology, and his father, a self-taught engineer.[1] At the age of 14, he was granted a Method Patent for a synthetic trachea constructed entirely of synthetically-engineered stem cells, becoming his twelfth registered patent to date. On October 11, 2012, Peter Weyland founded the eponymous Weyland Corp.
Charles Bishop Weyland's Origins
QuoteCharles Bishop Weyland's mother passed away when he was just two years old, leaving him to be raised by his harsh father and a succession of nannies.[4] At the age of just 21, he graduated from Harvard with an M.B.A., and following his father's death, he inherited the family's satellite mapping company.[4] Under the young Weyland's supervision, the family business grew to be the largest satellite systems operation in the world within a decade. During this period of rapid growth, Weyland acquired numerous other telecommunications enterprises, including a Midwest cable franchise and a telecom grid based in Nevada.[4]
They cannot be father and son when they have very different backgrounds and timelines. At this point this is your headcanon I'm arguing with, which is fine to have, but I am talking about established canon lore, therefore I cannot and will not argue further in this.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 01, 2020, 08:13:25 PM
I didn't exactly suggest they had done much to begin with, but I'm more talking about how they've spoken about it
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 01, 2020, 08:13:25 PMthere's no justifiable grounds for asserting the existence of supposedly "three distinct franchises with Alien/Prometheus, Predator, and AVP" but this is still merely hearsay which is contradicted by their products, not acknowledged by their fanbase, as well as logically incoherent
1. Just because you think it's hearsay doesn't mean it actually is. ;)
2. The current, present "canon" stance need not be beholden to prior products (or any products at all), and can change at a moment's notice. That throws, like, 95% of your blog treatise right out the window.
3. "not acknowledged by the fanbase", aside from being unproveable hearsay, would also fall under the domain of "head canon" - a topic you allegedly hate. Keep in mind that head canon is a good thing, it's how people enjoy what they want to enjoy and ignore what they don't. :)
4. Having three separate canons is more "logically coherent" than having just one with (admittedly) dubious continuity. It lets people who only want to have Alien in their Alien stuff have their own "canon", while people who want a canon with everything can have one, too. Like it's the best of both worlds, and for the life of me I cannot fathom why you're against this idea - you're already getting the "official canon" you want (if "official canon" matters so much to you), and other people who don't like that "official canon" have their own as well. What, exactly, is the problem here?
Quote from: Samhain13 on Nov 01, 2020, 11:02:39 PM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 01, 2020, 07:34:35 PM
"No one understands the lonely perfection of my dreams. I found perfection here. I've created it. A perfect organism."
No one understands the lonely perfection of my canon. I found perfection here.
I've created it. The personal canon.
Wisdom.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 01, 2020, 11:42:37 PM
They cannot be father and son when they have very different backgrounds and timelines. At this point this is your headcanon I'm arguing with, which is fine to have, but I am talking about established canon lore, therefore I cannot and will not argue further in this.
They
can be made to fit (and reasonably easily, given what you've quoted), but "officially" AvP has its own canon which encompasses everything, while there's also an Alien canon that doesn't.
To respond to the original post, I'm generally in line with what SM said - I think they might hit the reset button to a point, as has been done before. If they're smart they'll follow the RPG's logic of "hard canon" sources and "soft canon" elements that can be integrated into it at the viewer's discretion.
I'm still a little worried about a reboot. They just never do so well.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 01, 2020, 11:42:37 PM
No, Amengi and Engineers are two different races. One in insect like and the other humanoid. They have no relation and according to Predator history, the Amengi were the ones who done the alterations and enslaving. There is no room or mention of the Engineers.
No, I meant that the Engineers created the Amengi and the Hish through seeding planets with the Black Goo pathogen (which they engineered) just like they created life on Earth and the Xenomorphs. There is clearly room for Engineers to be their creators, and just because this hasn't been mentioned yet doesn't mean it isn't true or that it can't be mentioned in a future product.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 01, 2020, 11:42:37 PM
You sited me a fancanon site. I can't take that information seriously. I can at cite you three sources to how this is different:
It's my personal site, but the information on there is factual, and the conclusions drawn are based on the facts presented. If you're not going to take that seriously, then how could I take your position seriously? Let's be fair here and address the arguments.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 01, 2020, 11:42:37 PM
Writers and Producers:
QuoteWeyland Corp and its founder Peter Weyland from Prometheus contradict the Weyland Industries origin portrayed in Alien vs. Predator. When Prometheus writer Damon Lindelof pointed this out to director Ridley Scott during the film's production, Scott made it clear that he had no intention of following the timeline laid out in the Alien vs. Predator films;[5] the subsequent film Alien: Covenant would cement the retcon of events. Interestingly, in Jon Spaihts' original script for Prometheus, titled Alien: Engineers, Weyland Corp was still referred to as Weyland Industries, the name used in Alien vs. Predator.[6] This was subsequently changed in later drafts. Despite the change, the company is still referred to as "Weyland Industries" at the end of the viral video Happy Birthday, David.
First off, you're citing (or in fact you didn't even cite the source) the fan-wiki Xenopedia whose admins are intentionally trying to portray AVP and Prometheus as separate continuities, and second, this quote doesn't even elaborate upon nor support its assertions with factual evidence and rational arguments. It's a baseless claim, and the admin in control of the site does not allow it to be questioned.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 01, 2020, 11:42:37 PM
Peter Weyland's Origins
QuotePeter Weyland was born in Mumbai, India on October 1, 1990, to his mother, an Oxford-educated Professor of Comparative Mythology, and his father, a self-taught engineer.[1] At the age of 14, he was granted a Method Patent for a synthetic trachea constructed entirely of synthetically-engineered stem cells, becoming his twelfth registered patent to date. On October 11, 2012, Peter Weyland founded the eponymous Weyland Corp.
What is supposed to be the problem with this? Where is the supposed contradiction?
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 01, 2020, 11:42:37 PM
Charles Bishop Weyland's Origins
QuoteCharles Bishop Weyland's mother passed away when he was just two years old, leaving him to be raised by his harsh father and a succession of nannies.[4] At the age of just 21, he graduated from Harvard with an M.B.A., and following his father's death, he inherited the family's satellite mapping company.[4] Under the young Weyland's supervision, the family business grew to be the largest satellite systems operation in the world within a decade. During this period of rapid growth, Weyland acquired numerous other telecommunications enterprises, including a Midwest cable franchise and a telecom grid based in Nevada.[4]
What is supposed to be the problem with this? Where is the supposed contradiction?
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 01, 2020, 11:42:37 PM
They cannot be father and son when they have very different backgrounds and timelines. At this point this is your headcanon I'm arguing with, which is fine to have, but I am talking about established canon lore, therefore I cannot and will not argue further in this.
No offense, but you're being a little bit stupid here if you think contrasting the backstory of Charles with the backstory of Peter actually means they are contradictory, because that's like arguing that my dad having a different backstory to myself means we are not related because the backstories don't match. If they are father and son (and Peter was born in 1990 while Charles was born around the 1950s) then they are obviously going to have different backstories. I mean come on now, this is nothing short of silly.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Nov 02, 2020, 12:10:38 AM
I'm still a little worried about a reboot. They just never do so well.
Ditto, it's not my preferred method, even if it's the "easiest". It's part of why I like the RPG and its attempt to subtly reintroduce pre-reboot things in a way that lets people choose to take them or leave them, I think it's the best way to handle a reboot while simultaneously working around said reboot. :P
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:17:01 AM
It's my personal site, but the information on there is factual, and the conclusions drawn are based on the facts presented. If you're not going to take that seriously, then how could I take your position seriously? Let's be fair here and address the arguments.
Those "conclusions" are still your opinions (which are in turn based on your opinions on pieces of data), which is his point.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:17:01 AMthe fan-wiki Xenopedia whose admins are intentionally trying to portray AVP and Prometheus as separate continuities, and second, this quote doesn't even elaborate upon nor support its assertions with factual evidence and rational arguments. It's a baseless claim, and the admin in control of the site does not allow it to be questioned.
Well I mean, they're not wrong.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point
Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
1. Just because you think it's hearsay doesn't mean it actually is. ;)
But it demonstrably is hearsay as it's an unofficial statement coming from an individual working for Fox (and one who personally favors divided canons), so yes, it is indeed hearsay.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
2. The current, present "canon" stance need not be beholden to prior products (or any products at all), and can change at a moment's notice. That throws, like, 95% of your blog treatise right out the window.
I never said it needed to be, but we only have the products to go by, and they seem to quite clearly contradict rumors of divided canons.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
3. "not acknowledged by the fanbase", aside from being unproveable hearsay, would also fall under the domain of "head canon" - a topic you allegedly hate. Keep in mind that head canon is a good thing, it's how people enjoy what they want to enjoy and ignore what they don't. :)
By mentioning the fanbase not acknowledging a divided canon I intended to communicate how it's not sensible to resort to a decision that isn't endorsed by the fanbase if you desire to keep your fanbase.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
4. Having three separate canons is more "logically coherent" than having just one with (admittedly) dubious continuity. It lets people who only want to have Alien in their Alien stuff have their own "canon", while people who want a canon with everything can have one, too. Like it's the best of both worlds, and for the life of me I cannot fathom why you're against this idea - you're already getting the "official canon" you want (if "official canon" matters so much to you), and other people who don't like that "official canon" have their own as well. What, exactly, is the problem here?
How is that supposedly "more logically coherent"? You're only causing even more confusion and division with such an idea. What do you mean by "dubious continuity" exactly? If some people insist upon only having particular products and concepts part of their personal canon then there's nothing stopping them, but don't bring this personal canon upon the entire fanbase that embraces the entire official canon. The problem is this movement of people who wants to cause confusion and division in the fanbase by unnecessarily separating everything in the franchise into various separate canons.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:24:35 AM
Those "conclusions" are still your opinions (which are in turn based on your opinions on pieces of data), which is his point.
Not my opinions, but factual observations. There is speculation included, but it's largely fact-based.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:24:35 AM
Well I mean, they're not wrong.
Well, except they quite clearly are wrong, and they know it so well that they can't even handle it being questioned.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point
Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories
At the start of the article in that very link:
QuoteToday, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point
Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories
That says they're going to make more Alien, Predator, and AvP stories. I'm not sure what your point is?
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
1. Just because you think it's hearsay doesn't mean it actually is. ;)
But it demonstrably is hearsay as it's an unofficial statement coming from an individual working for Fox (and one who personally favors divided canons), so yes, it is indeed hearsay.
You keep telling yourself that. ;)
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
2. The current, present "canon" stance need not be beholden to prior products (or any products at all), and can change at a moment's notice. That throws, like, 95% of your blog treatise right out the window.
I never said it needed to be, but we only have the products to go by, and they seem to quite clearly contradict rumors of divided canons.
That's, just, like, your opinion, man.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
3. "not acknowledged by the fanbase", aside from being unproveable hearsay, would also fall under the domain of "head canon" - a topic you allegedly hate. Keep in mind that head canon is a good thing, it's how people enjoy what they want to enjoy and ignore what they don't. :)
By mentioning the fanbase not acknowledging a divided canon I intended to communicate how it's not sensible to resort to a decision that isn't endorsed by the fanbase if you desire to keep your fanbase.
What does that even mean?
There's a shitload of fans who don't like AvP, letting AvP be its own separate thing caters to all kinds of fans and lets you "keep your fanbase".
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
4. Having three separate canons is more "logically coherent" than having just one with (admittedly) dubious continuity. It lets people who only want to have Alien in their Alien stuff have their own "canon", while people who want a canon with everything can have one, too. Like it's the best of both worlds, and for the life of me I cannot fathom why you're against this idea - you're already getting the "official canon" you want (if "official canon" matters so much to you), and other people who don't like that "official canon" have their own as well. What, exactly, is the problem here?
You're only causing even more confusion and division with such an idea.
How? What part of it is too complex or confusing for you to understand?
You are literally getting what you want with the existence of an AvP canon, while others who aren't a fan of AvP get what they want. What do you have against people other than you getting what they want? Doesn't that lead to less confusion and division? If people don't want to engage with AvP materials but still want to follow "the official canon", there is a path for them.
Like, arguing against three canons makes you seem like an uncompromising asshole - especially when, once again,
you're already getting what you want.Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AMYou're only causing even more confusion and division with such an idea.
How so? What, exactly, is your endgame here? Even if you ended up being "right" you'd still have mountains of people who opt to do their own thing anyway, as they have been for decades. People operate independent of the "official canon", they aren't beholden to it or somehow "wrong" if they choose not to follow it.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AMIf some people insist upon only having particular products and concepts part of their personal canon then there's nothing stopping them
The lack of self-awareness present here is astounding. :D
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AMthe entire fanbase that embraces the entire official canon.
[citation needed]
It's pretty f**kin' laughable that you,
of all people, presume to speak for the highly diverse and opinionated group that is "the entire fanbase".
Like, holy shit. Laughing my ass off over here.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 02, 2020, 12:41:20 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point
Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories
At the start of the article in that very link:
QuoteToday, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!
Whoops! ;D
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 02, 2020, 12:41:20 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point
Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories
At the start of the article in that very link:
QuoteToday, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!
What's your point? They're separate licenses, not separate canons.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:54:14 AM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 02, 2020, 12:41:20 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point
Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories
At the start of the article in that very link:
QuoteToday, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!
What's your point? They're separate licenses, not separate canons.
The terms are interchangeable as far as FOX/Disney is concerned.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 02, 2020, 12:41:20 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point
Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories
At the start of the article in that very link:
QuoteToday, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!
Hmmm... sounds like he might be "promoting falsehoods"...
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
That says they're going to make more Alien, Predator, and AvP stories. I'm not sure what your point is?
My point is that they're keeping the established shared universe alive. What's your point?
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
You keep telling yourself that. ;)
Do as you please.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
That's, just, like, your opinion, man.
I'm not very fond of confusing facts with opinions.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
What does that even mean? There's a shitload of fans who don't like AvP, letting AvP be its own separate thing caters to all kinds of fans and lets you "keep your fanbase".
I'm not sure how I lost you. Yes, there are many fans who don't like
AVP (although mostly referring to the two movies and not the concept as a whole), but if they insist upon disregarding it then they can just do so and let the rest of the fanbase operate in peace without all the unnecessary confusion and division.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
How? What part of it is too complex or confusing for you to understand?
Because the audience is gonna have to try and make sense of everything because the products ties into each other and because you cause division in the fanbase and people become frustrated and disinterested.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
You are literally getting what you want[/b] with the existence of an AvP canon, while others who aren't a fan of AvP get what they want.
Duh!
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
What do you have against people other than you getting what they want?
Nothing unless what these other people want is going to cause troubles for the entire community, as these endless canon debates have been a constant demonstration about.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
Doesn't that lead to less confusion and division?
Not in the slightest, as these canon debates have shown.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
If people don't want to engage with AvP materials but still want to follow "the official canon", there is a path for them.
You're still following the official canon even if you disregard certain aspects of it. There's no need for separate canons. A unified canon not only unifies the audience but it also offers you the choice of a preferred canon if you must insist, and all you have to do is to literally ignore certain aspects of the canon.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
Like, arguing against three canons makes you seem like an uncompromising asshole - especially when, once again, you're already getting what you want.
Right back atcha for arguing against a unified canon for the general audience and general fanbase where more picky eaters are otherwise allowed to choose what they want while not causing any problems for the rest.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
How so? What, exactly, is your endgame here? Even if you ended up being "right" you'd still have mountains of people who opt to do their own thing anyway, as they have been for decades. People operate independent of the "official canon", they aren't beholden to it or somehow "wrong" if they choose not to follow it.
I think I have made myself abundantly clear already here.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
The lack of self-awareness present here is astounding. :D
I'm sorry but this response assumes that I'm a picky eater, which I'm not. When we have a unified canon, you can choose to ignore certain aspects of it if you insist, but that will be your choice and it won't affect the canon and it won't affect others who follow the entire canon and you will therefore have no grounds for causing division and confusion among the rest of the audience.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
[citation needed]
I'm sorry?
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
It's pretty f**kin' laughable that you, of all people, presume to speak for the highly diverse and opinionated group that is "the entire fanbase". Like, holy shit. Laughing my ass off over here.
Ok?
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
At the start of the article in that very link: Today, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!
Whoops! ;D
What are you trying to say? Is this another example where you're confusing the fact that these are three separate licenses but not three separate canons?
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:56:36 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:54:14 AM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 02, 2020, 12:41:20 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point
Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories
At the start of the article in that very link:
QuoteToday, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!
What's your point? They're separate licenses, not separate canons.
The terms are interchangeable as far as FOX/Disney is concerned.
First, there's no evidence of that. Second, even if it were true it wouldn't mean anything because (1) licenses simply are not equal to canonicity and (2) such a distinction is not at all apparent through their products (but instead they are presented as a single canon anyway) and thus the concept becomes irrelevant and pointless.
Quote from: SM on Nov 02, 2020, 01:01:58 AM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Nov 02, 2020, 12:41:20 AM
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:02:26 AM
Disney hasn't spoken about it. That's NightmareAsylum's point
Except they have (even if not very much). Here's one example (albeit through Marvel); https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-comics-to-publish-new-alien-and-predator-stories
At the start of the article in that very link:
QuoteToday, Marvel Entertainment announced three iconic franchises – ALIEN, PREDATOR, and ALIEN VS. PREDATOR – will be launching all-new stories with Marvel Comics starting in 2021!
Hmmm... sounds like he might be "promoting falsehoods"...
How do you mean? It sounds more like you're promoting misunderstandings.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
That says they're going to make more Alien, Predator, and AvP stories. I'm not sure what your point is?
My point is that they're keeping the established shared universe alive.
That's not what they're saying. They don't use the word "universe" even once in that article.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
That's, just, like, your opinion, man.
I'm not very fond of confusing facts with opinions.
Again, the lack of self-awareness is incredible. ;D
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
What does that even mean? There's a shitload of fans who don't like AvP, letting AvP be its own separate thing caters to all kinds of fans and lets you "keep your fanbase".
Yes, there are many fans who don't like AVP (although mostly referring to the two movies and not the concept as a whole)
[citation needed]
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AMbut if they insist upon disregarding it then they can just do so and let the rest of the fanbase operate in peace without all the unnecessary confusion and division.
There is no confusion and division, people who disregard it have their own canon. What's confusing about that?
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
How? What part of it is too complex or confusing for you to understand?
Because the audience is gonna have to try and make sense of everything because the products ties into each other and because you cause division in the fanbase and people become frustrated and disinterested.
No they don't, they do what they always do - they choose what they want and disregard the rest. They simply have an "official" outlet for that if they want to follow one. If what you were saying was remotely true, this franchise and fanbase would have died out decades ago.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AMQuote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
You are literally getting what you want[/b] with the existence of an AvP canon, while others who aren't a fan of AvP get what they want.
Duh!
Then why are you arguing against it?
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AMQuote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
What do you have against people other than you getting what they want?
Nothing unless what these other people want is going to cause troubles for the entire community, as these endless canon debates have been a constant demonstration about.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
Doesn't that lead to less confusion and division?
Not in the slightest, as these canon debates have shown.
You are the cause of the canon debate, in case you were a little slow on the uptake. When there are three canons,
there is no debate.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
If people don't want to engage with AvP materials but still want to follow "the official canon", there is a path for them.
You're still following the official canon even if you disregard certain aspects of it. There's no need for separate canons. A unified canon not only unifies the audience but it also offers you the choice of a preferred canon if you must insist, and all you have to do is to literally ignore certain aspects of the canon.
There is no unified audience, even if you had one singular canon you'd have tons of people believing what they want to believe anyway.
While I personally don't ascribe to this, there are people (obviously yourself included) who care about what "the official canon" is and want to follow it. Having three canons allows those people to do that, and is far more inclusive than having just one.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
Like, arguing against three canons makes you seem like an uncompromising asshole - especially when, once again, you're already getting what you want.
Right back atcha for arguing against a unified canon for the general audience and general fanbase where more picky eaters are otherwise allowed to choose what they want while not causing any problems for the rest.
Nah dawg, you're the one being the asshole by trying to force non-AvP fans to engage with AvP materials at the risk of being "wrong" or "picky eaters".
There are canons for those "picky eaters", you can just choose not to engage with it and let it exist in peace.
Again, what is your endgame in forcing people to accept AvP as a singular canon, when you yourself acknowledge that people can choose to disregard what they want?
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
How so? What, exactly, is your endgame here? Even if you ended up being "right" you'd still have mountains of people who opt to do their own thing anyway, as they have been for decades. People operate independent of the "official canon", they aren't beholden to it or somehow "wrong" if they choose not to follow it.
I think I have made myself abundantly clear already here.
Yeah you have:
"Like, arguing against three canons makes you seem like an uncompromising asshole - especially when, once again, you're already getting what you want."Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AMQuote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
The lack of self-awareness present here is astounding. :D
I'm sorry but this response assumes that I'm a picky eater, which I'm not. When we have a unified canon, you can choose to ignore certain aspects of it if you insist, but that will be your choice and it won't affect the canon and it won't affect others who follow the entire canon and you will therefore have no grounds for causing division and confusion among the rest of the audience.
You keep using the term "division and confusion" as if people are somehow confused. Like, it couldn't be more clear. :D
Choosing to ignore the existence of two other canons is your prerogative, just as it is for anyone else to ignore pieces of said canons. That's the lack of self awareness - you are literally doing that which you claim to be against, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
[citation needed]
I'm sorry?
You said the entire fanbase embraces the entire official canon. I'm looking for a citation of that.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 02, 2020, 12:50:49 AM
It's pretty f**kin' laughable that you, of all people, presume to speak for the highly diverse and opinionated group that is "the entire fanbase". Like, holy shit. Laughing my ass off over here.
Ok?
I'm not the one who presumed to speak for the entire fanbase, bro. And before you say you didn't, go re-read your post:
"the entire fanbase that embraces the entire official canon."Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AM
you're confusing the fact that these are three separate licenses but not three separate canons
[citation needed]
There you go conflating facts and opinion again. ;D
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AMFirst, there's no evidence of that.
Yes there is, you've chosen to ignore it.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AM(1) licenses simply are not equal to canonicity
That is your opinion and you're welcome to it. :)
The owners of the franchises have deemed that franchise division = canon division, as is their prerogative to do so since they own them.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AM(2) such a distinction is not at all apparent through their products
As stated before, products =/= official policy. Also as stated before, official policy can change at the drop of a hat, independent of preexisting products. We have no evidence, even from products, that newly released materials are part of a singular shared universe as opposed to three. In fact, we have the opposite.
Quote from: TurokSwe on Nov 02, 2020, 01:27:35 AMand thus the concept becomes irrelevant and pointless.
Bingo! Finally, a glimmer of understanding! ;D
TurokSWE -Take it from those of use who have been here for nearly ten years or much longer, there has never been a period of "peace" like right now, in regards to "canon wars" since Andrew Gaska's article defining the continuity and canon. There's no more division, because it's understood we're either talking along the lines of what's official as Andrew Gaska outlined or our personal preferences.
The only confusion caused here is me asking myself why you keep persisting along this line of thought?
It will gain you nothing, you look foolish, presenting your opinions as fact.
I was about to edit my post and say essentially the same thing, but you put it better than I would have.
Agreed. I'll just address this one final time, its ok if you have your headcanon. Like I know everyone doesn't like Alien 3 and have their own take like using Neil's idea for Alien 3 but at the end of the day, Alien 3 happened. Both can exist. I know this feeling as I have similar feelings for another franchise, Terminator. I don't consider Terminator Dark Fate as the true 3rd movie of the series as its goes against what was established to what we all know and love in the series. I consider 1-Salvation+The Final Battle comic the true ending of the series as there is a coherent beginning and end to the series with a pleasing twist that I adore and feel that perfectly gives the proper send off. However I won't stop others from liking Dark Fate and I have to acknowledge that Dark Fate is part of the new timeline.
What I will not do is present my idea as true canon and convince others you are wrong and go against established lore and word of the creators. As much as I hate what Terminator ended up instead of following along Salvation and giving the time loop a proper end once and for all, I'm just a fan at the end of the day, thats how it is.
Ridley says AVP Weyland and Alien/Prometheus Weyland are two different people and stories, thats it. It sucks as I actually like Charles Weyland, as unlike what his company has become, Charles is actually a selfless and brave person while who does want to leave his own mark in history and grow his company. He doesn't screw his fellow people over and was willing to fight Scar one on one for Lex and Sebastian to survive. Its antithesis of poetic tragedy really, his company ends up becoming the opposite of who he is.
TurokSwe, please consider this a once and final warning as I'm very sick of seeing your rude attitude towards the discussion, towards Gaska, and towards the people attempting to put out the correct information. I'm going to unlock the thread again now, but if one more of your posts is reported because of your attitude I'm afraid you wont be welcome here.
And to just cap off my post, Fiendish put it absolutely the best.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Nov 02, 2020, 01:54:03 AM
TurokSWE -Take it from those of use who have been here for nearly ten years or much longer, there has never been a period of "peace" like right now, in regards to "canon wars" since Andrew Gaska's article defining the continuity and canon. There's no more division, because it's understood we're either talking along the lines of what's official as Andrew Gaska outlined or our personal preferences.
The only confusion caused here is me asking myself why you keep persisting along this line of thought?
It will gain you nothing, you look foolish, presenting your opinions as fact.
If you have your own personal canon, that's absolutely fine! I have my own personal canon. But I also completely recognize that that is not what Fox/Studios/Disney had been working from, that was out-lined by Gaska. If you don't agree with it, that's fine. That's what your headcanon is for. But pretending your own opinion is fact, and disrespecting others in the process will not do you any favours.
Quote from: XenomrphThat's not what they're saying. They don't use the word "universe" even once in that article.
That's true but they don't distinguish between them as separate universes either but they lump them all together.
Quote from: XenomrphAgain, the lack of self-awareness is incredible. ;D
The lack of carefulness and integrity here is astonishing.
Quote from: Xenomrph[citation needed]
I beg your pardon?
Quote from: XenomrphThere is no confusion and division, people who disregard it have their own canon. What's confusing about that?
That's unfortunately not true, as years of experience have shown. What's so confusing about that?
Quote from: XenomrphNo they don't, they do what they always do - they choose what they want and disregard the rest. They simply have an "official" outlet for that if they want to follow one.
Yeah, those desiring separate canons do that, not those desiring a unified canon. But for the general audience it becomes increasingly confusing.
Quote from: XenomrphIf what you were saying was remotely true, this franchise and fanbase would have died out decades ago.
I mean the franchise and fanbase isn't in a good state and hasn't been for a long while, but what do you mean exactly?
Quote from: XenomrphThen why are you arguing against it?
I'm not, I'm arguing against the idea of separate canons, not a unified canon.
Quote from: XenomrphYou are the cause of the canon debate, in case you were a little slow on the uptake.
Yeah, sure, so for years I alone have been the source of debates about canon in the entire fanbase? Come on. If anything, I'm the end result of the canon debates I was exposed to over the years.
Quote from: XenomrphWhen there are three canons, there is no debate.
You keep telling yourself that, it will do little to affect reality.
Quote from: XenomrphThere is no unified audience, even if you had one singular canon you'd have tons of people believing what they want to believe anyway.
While I personally don't ascribe to this, there are people (obviously yourself included) who care about what "the official canon" is and want to follow it. Having three canons allows those people to do that, and is far more inclusive than having just one.
You're right, there is no largely unified audience because division has been raging in the fanbase for years. And yes, even with one unified canon you of course will have those choosing which parts of the canon they wish to acknowledge or ignore, and they have every right to, and they're still following the official canon, they're just not ready to engage with all the other material offered in the official canon. Having separate canons causes division and confusion and is far less inclusive and by definition it is exclusive.
Quote from: XenomrphNah dawg, you're the one being the asshole by trying to force non-AvP fans to engage with AvP materials at the risk of being "wrong" or "picky eaters".
I haven't done that at all. If they wish to ignore it they are free to do so, but they have no right to push their exclusivity and personal preferences upon the rest.
Quote from: XenomrphThere are canons for those "picky eaters", you can just choose not to engage with it and let it exist in peace.
Tell that to all those picky eaters who insist upon complaining and arguing with those who do not share their separated canon.
Quote from: XenomrphAgain, what is your endgame in forcing people to accept AvP as a singular canon, when you yourself acknowledge that people can choose to disregard what they want?
First, again, a unified canon discourages canon debates and the confusion and division that result from such promotion of separate canons. When you have a unified canon, everyone is still following it, even if some choose to ignore certain aspects of it.
Quote from: XenomrphYeah you have: "Like, arguing against three canons makes you seem like an uncompromising asshole - especially when, once again, you're already getting what you want."
Or I am offering both a solution and compromise with a unified canon in that there is one canon and no one should any longer encourage any confusion or division or debates on this matter, and if someone wish to only delve into certain aspects of that canon then they are free to do so and it will affect nobody else. Separate canons do not give the fanbase what they want, they only make things worse for the fanbase.
Quote from: XenomrphYou keep using the term "division and confusion" as if people are somehow confused. Like, it couldn't be more clear. :D
Yes, because apparently people find a lot of things confusing about this franchise and choose to engage in causing division over personal preferences. Having to explain that there are separate canons despite that it looks like the exact opposite and then having to explain what connects to what and why this or that is suddenly not connect to that or this naturally does cause a lot of confusion and frustration for the audience and it can make many disinterested in following it. There's got to be a stop to this madness.
Quote from: XenomrphChoosing to ignore the existence of two other canons is your prerogative, just as it is for anyone else to ignore pieces of said canons. That's the lack of self awareness - you are literally doing that which you claim to be against, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
But I haven't ignored any materials, I've not caused separation, and I'm promoting unity with freedom to choose what to engage with while not unnecessarily interferring with the rest of the community, so what you're saying here is not really true.
Quote from: XenomrphYou said the entire fanbase embraces the entire official canon. I'm looking for a citation of that.
Oh come on, I did not say that.
Quote from: XenomrphI'm not the one who presumed to speak for the entire fanbase, bro. And before you say you didn't, go re-read your post: "the entire fanbase that embraces the entire official canon."
You took that out of context. The full sentence was; "If some people insist upon only having particular products and concepts part of their personal canon then there's nothing stopping them, but don't bring this personal canon upon the entire fanbase that embraces the entire official canon." My point was clearly not to argue that literally the entire fanbase embraces a unified canon, but I emphasized that the picky eaters can't force their particular preferences upon those who embrace the entire table or force this preference upon anyone in the fanbase at all.
Quote from: XenomrphThere you go conflating facts and opinion again. ;D.
Explain yourself. Please.
Quote from: XenomrphYes there is, you've chosen to ignore it.
No, the "evidence" you refer to hasn't been ignored by me but rejected by me for good reasons, as we've dealt with enough already, and you gain nothing by mindlessly repeating yourself about this.
Quote from: XenomrphThat is your opinion and you're welcome to it. :) The owners of the franchises have deemed that franchise division = canon division, as is their prerogative to do so since they own them.
Not my opinion, it's a factual statement, anything else is a category mistake. The owners of the franchise (judging from their products, not unsubstantiated rumors) seems to have deemed that the four brands operate under a single canon, as indeed would be their prerogative to do as they own these licenses.
Quote from: XenomrphAs stated before, products =/= official policy. Also as stated before, official policy can change at the drop of a hat, independent of preexisting products.
And as stated multiple times, I never argued that products are a definitive indicator of official policy, but they naturally do reflect official policy, and when they quite abundantly demonstrate the existence of a unified canon then the case is essentially settled, especially when there are no truly considerable arguments to the contrary being proposed.
Quote from: XenomrphWe have no evidence, even from products, that newly released materials are part of a singular shared universe as opposed to three.
Which is a false statement; https://sites.google.com/view/xenoversecenter/xenoblog/2020-archive/exploring-canonicity-in-the-alien-and-predator-universe
Quote from: XenomrphIn fact, we have the opposite.
Explain yourself or the assertion will be rejected without motivation.
Quote from: XenomrphBingo! Finally, a glimmer of understanding! ;D
So you agree that it's logically pointless to argue that there are supposedly "three separate canons" because (1) the three canons reference each other and (2) the existence of just one canon that includes all three means it becomes completely redundant and irrelevant to argue about "three separate canons"? Awesome, finally some progress I guess!
Quote from: Fiendishly InventiveTurokSWE -Take it from those of use who have been here for nearly ten years or much longer, there has never been a period of "peace" like right now, in regards to "canon wars" since Andrew Gaska's article defining the continuity and canon. There's no more division, because it's understood we're either talking along the lines of what's official as Andrew Gaska outlined or our personal preferences.
If only that were true, but judging from my personal experience, it's not the case.
Quote from: Fiendishly InventiveThe only confusion caused here is me asking myself why you keep persisting along this line of thought? It will gain you nothing, you look foolish, presenting your opinions as fact.
Because I don't want to see any more of all this confusion and division in the fanbase, but all I want is peace, and I could care less how foolish someone may consider my approach, especially when I'm not actually presenting my own opinions as fact and when I'm constantly being misrepresented and misunderstood.
Quote from: Mr.TurokAgreed. I'll just address this one final time, its ok if you have your headcanon. Like I know everyone doesn't like Alien 3 and have their own take like using Neil's idea for Alien 3 but at the end of the day, Alien 3 happened. Both can exist. I know this feeling as I have similar feelings for another franchise, Terminator. I don't consider Terminator Dark Fate as the true 3rd movie of the series as its goes against what was established to what we all know and love in the series. I consider 1-Salvation+The Final Battle comic the true ending of the series as there is a coherent beginning and end to the series with a pleasing twist that I adore and feel that perfectly gives the proper send off. However I won't stop others from liking Dark Fate and I have to acknowledge that Dark Fate is part of the new timeline.
I agree. Although noting that in a case such as
Terminator, you don't actually have separate canons, but you merely have one unified canon which operates on countless different timelines caused by the time travel aspect which is the unifying theme in that franchise.
Quote from: Mr.TurokWhat I will not do is present my idea as true canon and convince others you are wrong and go against established lore and word of the creators. As much as I hate what Terminator ended up instead of following along Salvation and giving the time loop a proper end once and for all, I'm just a fan at the end of the day, thats how it is.
I wouldn't do that either, unless they are wrong.
Quote from: Mr.TurokRidley says AVP Weyland and Alien/Prometheus Weyland are two different people and stories, thats it. It sucks as I actually like Charles Weyland, as unlike what his company has become, Charles is actually a selfless and brave person while who does want to leave his own mark in history and grow his company. He doesn't screw his fellow people over and was willing to fight Scar one on one for Lex and Sebastian to survive. Its antithesis of poetic tragedy really, his company ends up becoming the opposite of who he is.
As has been stated many times by now, Ridley Scott is first of all not in charge of the
Alien/Predator universe, and second of all Scott never even denounces Charles Weyland or
AVP from continuity, nor is he allowed to by Fox, and Fox does not share his opinions, which Scott himself makes very clear. All that Scott does is really just (1) ignoring things just because and (2) get on people's nerves. I agree with your assessment of Charles though, he's a much more likable character than the one who inherited his throne!
I'm gonna guess you didn't read Hicks' post. I don't think this is going to end well for you.
When I say you're being rude, throwing out your opinions like they're actually facts is part of the problem. It's what makes it so infuriating for anyone to either converse with you, or just read your posts. You are not some official spokesperson for Fox/Studios. You have not worked on the properties. You do not speak for the decision-makers, or even have the insight knowledge that people like SM or Gaska do. I'm sorry but fan theories and preferences are just that, fan theories and preferences.
You reignite these conflicts with your opinions, causing arguments because you don't agree with the official listing passed down to us by the people who have worked for, who have defined the official internal canon. You are causing these issues.
We're not here to stamp down opinions, we love to discuss opinions and theories. But there are facts that if people refuse to even acknowledge, make discussions impossible and quite frankly boring. You are in that category, I'm afraid. As has been said, you're welcome to opinions and head-canon, you're not welcome to being a rude or obstinate. It's time to either stop, or rethink how you engage in discourse.
And as I keep saying, canon is absolutely meaningless to us. We do not write new books or new comics or games. Canon is a framework that matters only to the people who work in the franchises. The people making Alien books do not get to reference things from the other franchises. We know this. Alex White said this regarding Prometheus and the black goo and how it wasn't until Alien: Covenant introduced the elements that he was actually allowed to use them.
And that only applies to the expanded universe! The filmmakers aren't bound by this restriction! Expanded Universe and Theatrical sit completely separately! It's meaningless to us because it can change release by release, with the films making significant changes.
Enjoy which stories you like, hate which stories you don't. Have your own theories, but don't try and shove those theories and opinions down our throats and continually reignite conflicts that have been settled.