For me I found that Covenant cleaned up many things in the series that I had difficulty reconciling continuity wise. Now things are simpler:
1) The AvP films are out.
2) With the AvP films gone the retcon of Bishop II being a "covert model" is also out. (back in is the original concept of his being the human designer of the Bishop model)
3) The explanation for the ridged headed Aliens being a result of their advanced age is back in (This was endorsed by James Cameron himself...Then AvP-R came along).
4) The new EU (fire & stone, life & death) is out.
Again, this was how Alien: Covenant affected things for me. I'm not looking to start a fight about what's "officially canon" I just wanted to hear some thought/reaction people had to how covenant changed how they view the continuity of the series.
I separate film canon into 5 lines of continuity:
1. The Prometheus series, leading presumably to Alien.
2. The Alien series, the original 4-part saga.
3. The AlienS series: Alien, Aliens, Alien5 (it'll happen!).
4. The AVPs, which counts all A&P films up to 2007 as canon.
5. The Predator series.
So Covenant doesn't really change anything for me. I just file it in the appropriate section.
Quote from: marrerom on Aug 03, 2017, 02:14:11 PM
For me I found that Covenant cleaned up many things in the series that I had difficulty reconciling continuity wise. Now things are simpler:
1) The AvP films are out.
2) With the AvP films gone the retcon of Bishop II being a "covert model" is also out. (back in is the original concept of his being the human designer of the Bishop model)
3) The explanation for the ridged headed Aliens being a result of their advanced age is back in (This was endorsed by James Cameron himself...Then AvP-R came along).
4) The new EU (fire & stone, life & death) is out.
Again, this was how Alien: Covenant affected things for me. I'm not looking to start a fight about what's "officially canon" I just wanted to hear some thought/reaction people had to how covenant changed how they view the continuity of the series.
I agree with this and while I like Covenant, it brings along its own continuity problems, including an ironic AVP like life-cycle. The Lope incident and the fact that David created the Xenomorphs which means they are no longer an ancient horror but a pet project of an android dissatisfied with humanity and the Engineers. I also don't particularly like how villianous David is. Androids are not supposed to be able to be good or evil really, they can only mimic emotions but not feel them. As far as I know anyway. This is one of few issues that I had with the early Prometheus script, which was much better than the film but David was too evil for a synthetic.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 05, 2017, 01:51:48 PM
I agree with this and while I like Covenant, it brings along its own continuity problems, including an ironic AVP like life-cycle.
Lots of people have complained about the sped up life cycle but I don't see this as a
continuity error. David mentioned that his work had stalled and so the Alien we see in Covenant is more of a rough draft then a finished product. Differences in behavior/gestation speed/and physical characteristics are to be expected.
So much it's not part of my personal canon. :D :D :D
But the novel is since it has David saying the eggs were made by the Engineers.
Quote from: marrerom on Aug 05, 2017, 05:11:02 PM
Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 05, 2017, 01:51:48 PM
I agree with this and while I like Covenant, it brings along its own continuity problems, including an ironic AVP like life-cycle.
Lots of people have complained about the sped up life cycle but I don't see this as a continuity error. David mentioned that his work had stalled and so the Alien we see in Covenant is more of a rough draft then a finished product. Differences in behavior/gestation speed/and physical characteristics are to be expected.
That is a fair point and the novel does explain it that way more or less but regardless if its a rough draft, the problem is that its
not plausible, especially compared to before where the willing suspension of disbelief didn't require that much stretching. Hours is not too bad, minutes or seconds is pretty supernatural. These films are supposed to be sci/fi but these days they are anything but.
Quote from: marrerom on Aug 03, 2017, 02:14:11 PM
I'm not looking to start a fight about what's "officially canon" I just wanted to hear some thought/reaction people had to how covenant changed how they view the continuity of the series.
Before Covenant, I saw four canons: Prometheus, Alien, Predator, and AvP. There were connections between all of them, but they all had wiggle room to do their own thing.
To me, Covenant is another AvP movie: Alien versus Prometheus. I do not like that these canons are now linked together directly. It destroyed the storyline and the two franchises had opposing philosophies because they belonged to different genres: sci-fi and horror.
Clearly the studio intends to lump franchises together in any combination that they think will make them money. So now I only see one, totally fractured continuity that lumps together all franchises into one. You might as well have Freddy and Jason in the next Alien movie for all I care. Prometheus was the most promising franchise in recent memory, and they totally blew it. There is no coming back from the events in Covenant. It was a mistake that cannot be corrected, and it forever destroyed any chance that Prometheus would be its own unique franchise that would take us to unexplored territory.
For the people who divide up the series into multiple continuities, what's your rationale for doing so? Is there a guiding principle or is it based on your personal preference?
My guiding principal: Canon is whatever story or stories that another story needs in order to exist. Continuity flows in order of production.
Canon IS overrated in my book.
I treat it like a buffet, I take some stuff that I like and leave what I don't.
I enjoyed Covenant, But it doesn't change what I feel and think when I watch the original ALIEN.
When I watch a sequel, I only keep the relevant previous movies in regard.
So for example, David is only the creator of the xenomorphs when I watch Covenant. The space jockeys are only Engineers in flight suits when I watch Prometheus and covenant. When I watch ALIEN, I regard it for what was intended at the time it was made.
How else would you survive as a fan with all the abysmal comics and video game storylines? (Isolation is great though)
Quote from: Kelgaard on Aug 11, 2017, 12:32:02 AM
My guiding principal: Canon is whatever story or stories that another story needs in order to exist. Continuity flows in order of production.
Going by this view then wouldn't predator 2 and predators not be in the same continuity? Do you see that as a problem?
They would indeed be separate, though I usually put them together just to be tidy. I'm not heavily invested in Predator as a series.
Quote from: bobby brown on Aug 14, 2017, 04:05:19 PM
Canon IS overrated in my book.
I treat it like a buffet, I take some stuff that I like and leave what I don't.
I enjoyed Covenant, But it doesn't change what I feel and think when I watch the original ALIEN.
When I watch a sequel, I only keep the relevant previous movies in regard.
So for example, David is only the creator of the xenomorphs when I watch Covenant. The space jockeys are only Engineers in flight suits when I watch Prometheus and covenant. When I watch ALIEN, I regard it for what was intended at the time it was made.
How else would you survive as a fan with all the abysmal comics and video game storylines? (Isolation is great though)
I'm with you.
It ruined my perception on the Aliens themselves. Like a product of a defective android who has daddy issues cuz he can't create stuff. Not to mention the species isn't an old ancient horror that very few managed to not only encounter, but survive.
Quote from: bobby brown on Aug 14, 2017, 04:05:19 PM
Canon IS overrated in my book.
I treat it like a buffet, I take some stuff that I like and leave what I don't.
I enjoyed Covenant, But it doesn't change what I feel and think when I watch the original ALIEN.
When I watch a sequel, I only keep the relevant previous movies in regard.
So for example, David is only the creator of the xenomorphs when I watch Covenant. The space jockeys are only Engineers in flight suits when I watch Prometheus and covenant. When I watch ALIEN, I regard it for what was intended at the time it was made.
How else would you survive as a fan with all the abysmal comics and video game storylines? (Isolation is great though)
This is pretty much how I approach it. Only way to stay sane, really.
Like take James bond for instance, are you supposed to take the entire movie series as one cohesive storyline? they are just vaguely connected, Divided into generations. The alien franchise is almost 40 years old, I don't think it would be unreasonable to apply the same logic. If you prefer it that way of course.
It's not an incorrect approach, to be sure.
Ok, a bit late to this one, but this is my personal head canon;
Prometheus
Alien Covenant*
Alien
Alien Isolation
Aliens
Alien 3
Aliens: Colonial Marines*
Now I've starred Covenant and Colonial Marines, as they come with stipulations (which I will address below later). Avp simply does not exist to me in *any* form; I love Predator 1 & 2 in there own completely seperate universe, and sure I played some AvP games/read some comic books back in the day as a kid/had the kenner figures, but that was always to get my next 'Alien' fix. They do not and should not mix in my honest opinion. In fact if I were to expand upon the Alien universe in any way at all I'd rather put the Blade Runner movies up on that list.
Alien Resurrection is a live action Dark Horse comic to me; Just like AvP, its a fun watch once in a very rare blue moon, but it simply does not belong with the 'original trilogy' - aesthetics dont work (yeah yeah, 200 years etc i know lol), humor doesnt belong, designs bastardised H. R. Giger's work - its a comic, not a movie to me.
Now, Aliens: Colonial Marines - you may be surprised to see that on my canon list, but this is my take on it; It happened... just not how we saw it in the game. Think 'Alien Trilogy' ps1/pc/saturn videogame; it BASICALLY told events of the movies, but with a lot of liberties taken.. now apply that same logic to Colonial Marines. The technical manual told us that Weyland Yutani investigated LV-426 after the atmosphere processor explosion, specifically in search of the Derelict. That neatly corresponds with what we learn in the game. Also, the name of the ship, the Sephora - not only used in Colonial Marines, but mentioned in Aliens: Infestation (again, telling events differently, but from these sources, we can start pulling "the facts") So Weyu *did* go back to LV-426, the derelict *was* studied by the bioweapons division, and the Sephora was sent in to investigate the missing Sulaco mission.. as far as i am concerned, these things happened :-) (how that pans out is up to debate)
You may be wondering why I starred Covenant - and the reasoning is that it all rests on how sequels leading up to Alien (if we ever get them) are handled to determine if Prometheus and Covenant are scratched from this list. I was always a fan of the mystery of the original movie.. i didnt need to know anything more about the space jockey than the poor creature had met its fate a long time ago, and history would repeat itself with the Nostromo... when Prometheus decided to tell us that the Jockey is in fact Human 1.0, and Covenant tells us the xenomorph is not ancient, it was made by an android only 30 years prior.. i CAN roll with that, IF certain things are addressed; 1- David's work MUST be based on Engineer experiments already documented (ie; what we saw in Covenant was not him creating his own conceptual perfect organism from black goo, but rather, attempting to REPLICATE what Engineers have already previously done.. this would account for the very organic xeno (a work in progress), the gestation period and variance in chestburster, but also, it must come to be that the xeno we know and love from the original movie was created in part with engineer technology for one very important reason; the biomechanical appearence of the xeno matches that of the Juggernaught pilot too closely (which you will note is not actually wearing clothing, that is his biomechanically augmented body)... neither neomorph nor anything else created by black goo shared that aesthetic.. so to claim David single handedly creates the final xenomorph version single handedly and it just so happens to look identical to engineer armor is too far a stretch for me... id much rather David's ultramorph be him working to craft a copy... this would also allow the derelict on LV-426 to have zero involvement from David/ not break the established timeline/ "fossilized" Jockey canon of the original movie (because no way did that ship get there only a couple of decades before the Nostromo arrived!)
All other games, comic books, graphic novels, and audio dramas are just fun expanded media and non canon.
Thats my take on it :-)
I have no issue with Covenant's presented canon. In fact, I would even say Covenant's ending is the perfect ending for the prequel story line.
Just like The Silence of the Lambs was the perfect ending (well, before Hannibal 2001 was released). The film ends with the beast is loose, leaving the audience to ponder on Lecter's fate. It ends with Lecter now free to return to his ways of cannibalism, but will he be tracked down and stopped. A whole new adventure of Lecter for viewers to speculate.
Same for Covenant, the beast is loose, leaving the audience to ponder on David's fate. It ends with David now free to see through his mission to destroy humans, but will he be tracked down and stopped. A whole new adventure of David for viewers to speculate.
No story ever truly ends. At some point, the audience will eventually be left with speculating on what happens after. Since that is inevitable, leaving the audience with something juicy to speculate on, is ideal, imo.
Not much, it was heavily implied from the moment the Deacon appears (from the moment we see the biomechanical nature of the Engineer biotechnology really) that the organism would have resulted or evolved from the Xenovirus regardless. Oh, and
Quote from: bobby brown on Aug 14, 2017, 04:05:19 PM
Canon IS overrated in my book.
I treat it like a buffet, I take some stuff that I like and leave what I don't.
I enjoyed Covenant, But it doesn't change what I feel and think when I watch the original ALIEN.
When I watch a sequel, I only keep the relevant previous movies in regard.
So for example, David is only the creator of the xenomorphs when I watch Covenant. The space jockeys are only Engineers in flight suits when I watch Prometheus and covenant. When I watch ALIEN, I regard it for what was intended at the time it was made.
How else would you survive as a fan with all the abysmal comics and video game storylines? (Isolation is great though)
this^.
My personal canon goes like this...
First Order Canon:
- ALIEN
- ALIENS
- ALIEN 3
Second Order Canon:
- ALIEN
- ALIENS
- ALIEN 3
- ALIEN: RESURRECTION
Third Order Canon:
- PROMETHEUS
- ALIEN: COVENANT
- ... (whatever prequel coming next)
- ALIEN
- ALIENS
- ALIEN 3
- ALIEN: RESURRECTION
Non-Canon:
- EVERYTHING ELSE
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Jan 07, 2018, 12:02:48 AM
My personal canon goes like this...
First Order Canon:
- ALIEN
- ALIENS
- ALIEN 3
Second Order Canon:
- ALIEN
- ALIENS
- ALIEN 3
- ALIEN: RESURRECTION
Third Order Canon:
- PROMETHEUS
- ALIEN: COVENANT
- ... (whatever prequel coming next)
- ALIEN
- ALIENS
- ALIEN 3
- ALIEN: RESURRECTION
Non-Canon:
- EVERYTHING ELSE
Same here, with the first order being that the Xenomorph is simply an incredibly deadly organism/animal from elsewhere.
ALIEN
ALIENS
Anything else was either bad cryo-dreams and/or Ripley tripping balls on antidepressants as she goes through loads of therapy back on Earth (with Newt and Hicks by her side, of course).
My personal canon goes like this:
Blade Runner
Blade Runner 2049
Outland
Alien
;)
My starting point will always be Alien. It's my favourite movie of all time and I can't help but compare all other Alien movies or projects to that one film, or measure them against it.
Now, I love Aliens - it was one of my go-to movies in the 1980s and 1990s and I still love it - but it was a terrible sequel. It unpicked the Alien, gave it a real-world analogy in an ant hive thereby stripping it of it's horrible mysterious origins, turned them from an unstoppable killer into target practice and was more a thriller than a horror, but it's so well made and is such a great action film it's right up my alley. If I had to choose one other film to part of the canon, Aliens would be it.
Alien 3 tried to capture the mood of Alien but failed, we all know the story of it's production, but it's still a good film as it's wonderfully shot and well performed. My gripe with it is the deaths of Hicks and Newt; it makes the events and character arcs of Aliens utterly pointless and although it keeps in with the nihilistic tone of the first film it just felt like it was done for either increased personal drama - which I didn't feel at all - and a reset button so that we could have more 'The Further Adventures of Aliens!' movies.
Alien: Resurrection I simply can't get my head around. It looked great and Ron Pearlman makes everything better, but I really did not like it. The alien hybrid was just ridiculous and the cloned Ripley story was intriguing but really flat.
I can't watch the AvP movies again. They're badly made fan fiction flicks that manage to subvert everything that made the franchises great in the first place. I don't count them as part of either canon, Alien or Predator, and both franchises need to be seperated.
I quite enjoyed Prometheus and liked the direction it went in, but wasn't impressed with the way they tied in the engineers with the space jockey, with bio spacesuits and the like. It just didn't feel right to me and, again, the eldritch mystery of a fossilied alien that grew out of the chair of his spaceship was flattened. Like I said before, I measure everything against the original movie.
Alien: Covenant was a good film and I liked the premise, but David being the alien's creator? I don't buy that at all and, again, based on the original film it makes no sense. I'd like to think that he's lying and part of his malfunction is that he has delusions of grandeur, but something tells me that's not the case.
Alien: Isolation was fantastic and bought back everything I loved about the original movie. Although the story was a bit... convenient, it played out really well, and I have no problem making that part of my preferred canon.
I feel that all of the comics and novels had hugely varying levels of quality and/or competence, so for the sake of simplicity I just ignore all of that.
So...
My personal canon is Alien, Alien: Isolation and, at a push, Aliens.
Alien 3 and Alien: Resurrection can stay together as an experiment in storytelling, or Hypersleep nightmares, or whatever you want to call them.
Prometheus and Covenant are 'reboots' of the original from a wholly new angle, with it's own story and mythology.
AvP and AvP:R is ignored completely. Saying that, AvP does have some fun bits and I wouldn't turn it off if it came on TV.
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Aug 15, 2017, 02:39:42 AM
It ruined my perception on the Aliens themselves. Like a product of a defective android who has daddy issues cuz he can't create stuff. Not to mention the species isn't an old ancient horror that very few managed to not only encounter, but survive.
I've never understood this point of view. Everything in Prometheus and Covenant point to David trying to rekindle something ancient, something that even the Engineers couldn't control. It's also obvious that his experiments have moved closer to their goal but still fall well short of it. Therefore the alien remains an ancient evil, just one that has been brought back from extinction thanks to David. I have no problem with that at all.
Also, is David evil? I consider him to be amoral, his opinions on his place in human hierarchy having developed largely In isolation - and that seems entirely plausible.
Quote from: Gash on Jan 17, 2018, 07:05:14 PM
Quote from: Mr.Turok on Aug 15, 2017, 02:39:42 AM
It ruined my perception on the Aliens themselves. Like a product of a defective android who has daddy issues cuz he can't create stuff. Not to mention the species isn't an old ancient horror that very few managed to not only encounter, but survive.
I've never understood this point of view. Everything in Prometheus and Covenant point to David trying to rekindle something ancient, something that even the Engineers couldn't control. It's also obvious that his experiments have moved closer to their goal but still fall well short of it. Therefore the alien remains an ancient evil, just one that has been brought back from extinction thanks to David. I have no problem with that at all.
Also, is David evil? I consider him to be amoral, his opinions on his place in human hierarchy having developed largely In isolation - and that seems entirely plausible.
It also makes it scarier, because the idea that something could survive extinction means the Xenomorph is now punching well above its weight in comparison to more advanced and powerful sci-fi universes like WH40K and Halo. In the Greg Bear Forerunner trilogy the Flood are noted to be powered by the consciousness of the once-extinct Precursors, them and the Forerunners, and possibly the Chaos, were previously known as some of the only known sci-fi factions to survive an extinction event, but now that David has at least 'partially' brought them back, the Xenomorphs are added to that list.
It also puts Ash's "I think its safe to assume its not a zombie," comment in an awkwardly ironic light.
My canon runs like this:
Prometheus
Alien Covenant
(Next movie here)
Alien
Alien Isolation
Aliens
Alien 3
Alien Colonial Marines
Alien Resurrection
I enjoyed Covenant. Not my favourite in the franchise but not the worst.
I don't include any of the AvP films in this universe as I thought they were pish.
I also consider the Predator series separate to Alien.
Quote from: Apollo on Jan 19, 2018, 06:01:30 PM
My canon runs like this:
Prometheus
Alien Covenant
(Next movie here)
Alien
Alien Isolation
Aliens
Alien 3
Alien Colonial Marines
Alien Resurrection
I enjoyed Covenant. Not my favourite in the franchise but not the worst.
I don't include any of the AvP films in this universe as I thought they were pish.
I also consider the Predator series separate to Alien.
Just exactly like me ;D I'm happy to know that I'm not alone with this canon ;D
I don't include A:CM because the Turk thing is inexcusable. That game is fan fiction.
Quote from: marrerom on Aug 03, 2017, 02:14:11 PM
4) The new EU (fire & stone, life & death) is out.
Already?
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 20, 2018, 12:11:39 AM
I don't include A:CM because the Turk thing is inexcusable. That game is fan fiction.
I appreciate all works because of their story. It's the only thing that matters : the story. Too many people don't like this game just because of graphics... The story is great ! If we doing some research, we know that all is fine, even the 17 weeks.
All of my canon must have these criteria :
- A logical Origin of Xenos. So only LV-426, and Planet 4 for now. All of this based on the fact that David created the Xenomorph.
- Exclude systematically AVP stories.
- And do not contradict the main stories of the films.
All works which have this critreria is canon, for me, because I want to keep a logical story :)
The story was ill-conceived and poorly executed.
It may not contradict the canon but it makes it extremely convoluted. There is no reason for Hicks to survive except fan service.
It's clearly stated in Alien 3 that he is dead. His corpse is identified. It's not explained how but it would be a fairly massive oversight to mis-identify a corpse.
I wish people would just let those characters go.
It is true that the resurreection of Hicks is a bit exaggerated ... Just because people were not happy because him and Newt are dead...
But I love all of the rest ! We can go in the Derelict, in Hadley's Hope, in the Sulaco. And I always wanted to see a facility around the Derelict, I have it with A:CM.
The major problems for the story are :
- 17 weeks / 17 days.
- Hadley's Hope which not destroyed.
But when we love the game, these mistakes are easy to correct with some explanations ^^'
"Easy"?
Of course ! I can imagine that the explosion was not as important as Bishop said it. For example, in Alien Isolation, when Marlow wants to explode the Anesidora, Amanda and Taylor have arrived to mitigate the explosion. Why is it not possible ? And we can imagine that the explosion start from the top of the atmospheric processor, so the explosion is like Hiroshima and Nagasaki I suppose : it explode at a certain altitude.
And for the 17 weeks, all is explain in Stasis Interrupted. And of course it is complicated, but I made a chronology about all of the events and I think it's clear now ^^'
Not sure what you mean about the Anesidora.
The comparisons to the Japan bombings don't stand up. They were tiny compared to the Hadley explosion and the primary heat exchanger was just below ground level; not at an altitude,
The seventeen week thing is a non-issue AFAIC.
Alien
Alien Isolation
Aliens
Alien 3
As you wish, but me, I have no problem with it ;)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 20, 2018, 07:06:30 AM
Quote from: marrerom on Aug 03, 2017, 02:14:11 PM
4) The new EU (fire & stone, life & death) is out.
Already?
The status of the more recent EU is a bit hazy...depends where Ridley goes with the whole David creating the Aliens thing. Depends if he's allowed to go anywhere with it.
I prefer the idea that David re-created the Xenomorph. I recall him saying something to the effect of the Engineers trying to have their flock yet banish the wolf. - I take that as him attempting to rebuild it or extract it via the AI of the black goo.
For me it's:
Predator Dark ages
Predator
Predator 2
AVP
AVPR
Predators
Blade runner
Prometheus
Alien covenant
Alien
Alien Isolation
Aliens
Alien 3
Alien resurrection.
I haven't added Blade Runner 2049 because I haven't seen it yet.
Quote from: Citixeno on Jan 28, 2018, 04:10:37 PM
I prefer the idea that David re-created the Xenomorph. I recall him saying something to the effect of the Engineers trying to have their flock yet banish the wolf. - I take that as him attempting to rebuild it or extract it via the AI of the black goo.
You're not alone in that assessment. In fact the movie novelization outright confirms it.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 30, 2018, 04:39:06 AM
Quote from: Citixeno on Jan 28, 2018, 04:10:37 PM
I prefer the idea that David re-created the Xenomorph. I recall him saying something to the effect of the Engineers trying to have their flock yet banish the wolf. - I take that as him attempting to rebuild it or extract it via the AI of the black goo.
You're not alone in that assessment. In fact the movie novelization outright confirms it.
How so exactly?
When David shows Oram his lab, he indicates an egg and says he didn't create it.
Quote from: SM on Jan 31, 2018, 08:12:31 PM
When David shows Oram his lab, he indicates an egg and says he didn't create it.
It heavily implies but does not totally guarantee it. I'm personally on the recreation side, though.
Eagle eyed viewers will notice that the egg mentioned in the novel can be seen in the final movie, though no attention is drawn to it.
Quote from: Stitch on Feb 02, 2018, 01:52:38 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 31, 2018, 08:12:31 PM
When David shows Oram his lab, he indicates an egg and says he didn't create it.
It heavily implies but does not totally guarantee it. I'm personally on the recreation side, though.
Eagle eyed viewers will notice that the egg mentioned in the novel can be seen in the final movie, though no attention is drawn to it.
It's hard to say without access to the shooting script, but this fact makes me think that the scene from the novelization was filmed, but cut.
Or maybe the author of the novelization didn't like David creating the Alien, so he added in those parts.
ADF included it. Fox allowed it.
I specifically asked ADF about it when we interviewed him. He said that was his inclusion.
Yup.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 02, 2018, 08:31:31 AM
I specifically asked ADF about it when we interviewed him. He said that was his inclusion.
Inclusion in the sense that ADF fabricated it from whole cloth, or that it was part of the script that Ridley Scott chose to omit when the movie was filmed/edited?
Is it definitely a facehugger egg?
Quote from: EJA on Feb 04, 2018, 07:10:18 PM
Is it definitely a facehugger egg?
Yes, I believe there's even drawings of it in David's bestiary.
So facehuggers (and therefore presumably Xenos) existed at some point already?
Depends who you ask.
Something akin to facehuggers and blahblahmorph was at least envisioned on the mural on LV-223. Whether those ever existed at any point is anyones guess.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 03, 2018, 07:48:26 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 02, 2018, 08:31:31 AM
I specifically asked ADF about it when we interviewed him. He said that was his inclusion.
Inclusion in the sense that ADF fabricated it from whole cloth, or that it was part of the script that Ridley Scott chose to omit when the movie was filmed/edited?
About 45:30 - he says the script he was working from said it was unclear either way so he was left to do his own thing.
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/files/podcasts/avpg_pc_episode51.mp3
To be honest, given how he also had to insert his own scene where they check the atmosphere (since it wasn't in the script he was adapting) but we've seen that in the draft I managed to get a hold of and I think Carl Braga also mentioned something about a similar scene being filmed it's just as possible an earlier script was more specific about it.
Quote from: EJA on Feb 05, 2018, 11:23:36 AM
So facehuggers (and therefore presumably Xenos) existed at some point already?
That's the implication, and why David said he was recreating preexisting work.
Personal canon is easy.
Prometheus
Alien: Covenant
Alien
Aliens
Alien³
Alien: Resurrection
Also worth noting that they are fun to watch in tandem with Blade Runner and Blade Runner 2049, not for any legitimate shared universe connections, but because the two franchises thematically intersect in a lot of interesting ways.
I have no specific canon, but I try to get my hands on as much EU stuff as possible out of curiosity and "historical knowledge".
"Interview with James Cameron & Gale Ann Hurd, 1986"
https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2013/02/02/interview-with-james-cameron-gale-ann-hurd-1986/
QuoteCameron: But, you see, that was never seen at all. Yes, it's in contradiction to the reproductive cycle that was in the original script of the first film. But it's not in contradiction to what you saw in the film. What you saw in the film was a thousand eggs, one of them hatches, one of them goes through its life cycle, becomes an adult, and is killed. There is no connection between the adult and the future eggs. Now, in the scene that was apparently shot and cut, and which I never saw, in which Tom Skerritt and Harry Dean Stanton are turning into eggs, that closed the cycle. But, to me, that was completely irrelevant to what you actually saw in the film.
Unless you're an ardent fan of the film and studied what was taken out, which to me is irrelevant to the group experience of this movie, it's not a contradiction, it's merely an alternative explanation. And a more plausible one, really.
Struggling with the reason to resurrect a six year old thread for an interview with Jimmy C.
Quote from: SM on Jan 06, 2024, 08:27:29 AMStruggling with the reason to resurrect a six year old thread for an interview with Jimmy C.
Ralfy just wants to feel relevant, and there's no current threads left for him to infect.
Yup, resurrecting a dead thread with a completely off-topic James Cameron quote that nobody was discussing for unknown reasons; seems to be Ralfy's M.O. 😂 No doubt the egg-morph was working with Burke...
His endless, meaningless, and dull word vomiting has really made me less interesting in reading any actuall Alien discussion here.
I'm sure others have walked away due his pages and pages of nonsense.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 06, 2024, 04:36:36 PMHis endless, meaningless, and dull word vomiting has really made me less interesting in reading any actuall Alien discussion here.
I'm sure others have walked away due his pages and pages of nonsense.
Yup... it's like a waiting game for which thread will be targeted next. Always ends the same; either the thread dies or it becomes so off topic with everyone trying to counter the insanity that the mods have no choice but to lock it. 😔 And then it's rinse and repeat. It may be time to retreat to the subscriber threads where it's (currently) safe.
If he is such a problem then just ignore him and respond to each other instead. Mocking or provoking isn't helping nor is it good form. Just agree to disagree.
While this thread has been brought up though...
As I think I already said previously in this thread, Covenent left a bad taste with what it did with the Alien lore. I am guessing those behind the rpg must have felt similar since they did have the creature from covenant as a different species. Plagiarus linesteres instead of Plagiarus praepotens I think.
Almost every thread he posts in ends revolving around well meaning members trying earnestly to have an actual back and forth. You can't expect everyone to unanimously just ignore him. He's always going to pull someone in and then the whole thing devolves.
And for the record I do not engage with him anymore. Im just saying as someone who reads discussion here, more than I contribute, it's made this place much less appealing.
He's blocked a tonne of people so he's only trying to engage with people who agree with him.
What I see on film in Convenant is open to interpretation on David being the creator. I'll go with he merely put a twist on an existing recipe. :laugh:
I really wish that was the case, sadly Ridley Made it clear that his intent was that David was the creator.
Which the film bears out.
Yeah the film is not at all vague on the issue.
I like where this is headed. 8)
"You engineered these things David?"
"This is what I wanted to show you, my successes"
"I found perfection here, I created it. Perfect organism"
Quote from: razeak on Jan 06, 2024, 10:23:28 PMWhat I see on film in Convenant is open to interpretation on David being the creator.
Nope, but it's open to retcon🙃👎
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 06, 2024, 11:01:23 PMQuote from: razeak on Jan 06, 2024, 10:23:28 PMWhat I see on film in Convenant is open to interpretation on David being the creator.
Nope, but it's open to retcon🙃👎
This. The film is clear in its intent but you could undo it if you want to.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 06, 2024, 11:18:13 PMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 06, 2024, 11:01:23 PMQuote from: razeak on Jan 06, 2024, 10:23:28 PMWhat I see on film in Convenant is open to interpretation on David being the creator.
Nope, but it's open to retcon🙃👎
This. The film is clear in its intent but you could undo it if you want to.
Yep
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 06, 2024, 11:42:00 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 06, 2024, 11:18:13 PMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 06, 2024, 11:01:23 PMQuote from: razeak on Jan 06, 2024, 10:23:28 PMWhat I see on film in Convenant is open to interpretation on David being the creator.
Nope, but it's open to retcon🙃👎
This. The film is clear in its intent but you could undo it if you want to.
Yep
How would you do it?
I'll be in the "he unlocked an old recipe" camp
I'm sticking my head in the sand lol. I simply don't care on this point. I'm fine with the foundation being built of sand. I'll just pretend, and I understand fully I'm pretending, that David is just the foster parent of the species and he inflicted terrible, fleshy, grasshopper attributes on it
If I had a magic wand, it would remain a mystery.
Dallas/Kane or whomever "it appears fossilized"
David "I created it.".
I'll choose the former in "personal" canon.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 06, 2024, 11:48:53 PMQuote from: Xenomrph on Jan 06, 2024, 11:42:00 PMQuote from: SiL on Jan 06, 2024, 11:18:13 PMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 06, 2024, 11:01:23 PMQuote from: razeak on Jan 06, 2024, 10:23:28 PMWhat I see on film in Convenant is open to interpretation on David being the creator.
Nope, but it's open to retcon🙃👎
This. The film is clear in its intent but you could undo it if you want to.
Yep
How would you do it?
David thought he created it. He was mistaken and accidentally recreated something that already existed, even if he didn't realize it.
Sure, if you consider any of the creatures in 'Covenant' to be a true Xenomorph (they arent) and ignore the mural in 'Prometheus' which showed facehuggers existed prior. David has delusions of grandeur. The creature in AC was his creation, yes; he used his knowledge of genetics and used the native fauna of the planet in conjunction with the pathogen to create it.
But then, if I examined the trace- fossil of an extinct crab from the Cretaceous period, used my insane android knowledge of DNA, genetics, and clades of modern day crab species and switched certain genes on and off/crossbred etc until I had a pretty damn close match, I could call that my success story and still say I created it... even if the source inspiration existed several million years before I did. Regardless what Ridley intended with the movie, there's still enough to leave it open to interpretation based on what we know from other movies. (And that's the head-canon I'll continue to roll with) 😂
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 07, 2024, 01:11:00 AMSure, if you consider any of the creatures in 'Covenant' to be a true Xenomorph (they arent)
Film doesn't say this.
Quoteand ignore the mural in 'Prometheus' which showed facehuggers existed prior.
Mural doesn't show facehuggers, and the movie shows that face-hugging things are made with goo.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 07, 2024, 01:11:00 AMSure, if you consider any of the creatures in 'Covenant' to be a true Xenomorph (they arent) and ignore the mural in 'Prometheus' which showed facehuggers existed prior. David has delusions of grandeur. The creature in AC was his creation, yes; he used his knowledge of genetics and used the native fauna of the planet in conjunction with the pathogen to create it.
But then, if I examined the trace- fossil of an extinct crab from the Cretaceous period, used my insane android knowledge of DNA, genetics, and clades of modern day crab species and switched certain genes on and off/crossbred etc until I had a pretty damn close match, I could call that my success story and still say I created it... even if the source inspiration existed several million years before I did. Regardless what Ridley intended with the movie, there's still enough to leave it open to interpretation based on what we know from other movies. (And that's the head-canon I'll continue to roll with) 😂
damn skippy. He creates those particular ones! I love it.
The murals were a little bit of a sticking point for me too.
That being said, I actually love David as a villain. He's great.
It's actually funny to imagine he decided to create creature and likely drew them out with dicks or metaphorical dick actions. Haha. He's a teenager.
Director intent has been shot down on other topics vs what is in film.
Even if we ignore intent, it's right there in the film. It's not left open to interpretation: it has the guy walk through his working to get to the end result.
I like Covenant, a lot actually. Just as long as I don't try to slot it in with the wider lore of the franchise, which is a mess anyway.
Hurst my brain that we ended up with this as the origin of the creature.
What part of the film lore is a mess?
Quote from: SiL on Jan 07, 2024, 01:14:56 AMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 07, 2024, 01:11:00 AMSure, if you consider any of the creatures in 'Covenant' to be a true Xenomorph (they arent)
Film doesn't say this.
Quoteand ignore the mural in 'Prometheus' which showed facehuggers existed prior.
Mural doesn't show facehuggers, and the movie shows that face-hugging things are made with goo.
Well, the movie doesn't say it *is* a Xenomorph either 😅 let's look at what the movies do show us (with some personal interpretation);
Neither 'Alien' nor 'Aliens' showed a Xenomorph hatching from a human host fully formed, translucent or with all limbs. Likewise, the adults didn't have a fleshy exterior, and elongated arms. Neither did they have a gestation period of minutes.
The derelict in 'Alien' was ancient. Even if Dallas made an unqualified assumption and was incorrect that the Jockey was fossilised, 'Prometheus' showed that Engineer helmets in similar state on LV-233 were at least a couple of thousand years old (carbon dated) meaning the eggs predate David.
The mural does indeed show 'some' face hugging creature comes from the goo as you say; it also shows a very Xenomorph-esque creature front and centre. However the pathogen in the vases when unleashed as the weapon intended *doesnt* produce face-hugging creatures. Since the image doesn't show what the vases *do*, it could be implied that it shows where the goo came *from*
When the translucent burster hatches, David holds out his arms for it to mimic - not unlike the pose of the creature in the mural he saw on LV-233 - and smiles triumphantly; perhaps due to successfully creating the perfection he saw in the mural.
There's definitely room for interpretation within the movie.
The script says it's a Xenomorph. Alien however does not.
The creature in the mural is a Deacon or a Neomorph-like being. You can even notice that the end of the head is pointed.
(https://i.ibb.co/DrNHT8J/7691786250-9a8f27a6ed-b.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/JCQ1BJq/Ctvw0yc-XYAIPRf-B-jpg-large.jpg)
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 07, 2024, 01:42:26 AMWell, the movie doesn't say it *is* a Xenomorph either
Of course it does. It has the full Alien life-cycle, bleeds acid, two mouths -- it's an Alien.
QuoteNeither 'Alien' nor 'Aliens' showed a Xenomorph hatching from a human host fully formed, translucent or with all limbs.
Aliens gave it arms while
Alien had nubs and
Alien 3 shows two bursters with distinct heads and limbs.
QuoteThe derelict in 'Alien' was ancient.
That doesn't mean it crashed long ago.
Covenant is very clear when it has David walk through the process of unleashing the goo, finding insects, and then manipulating them until he ends up with the Alien. That is the story the film tells us. Everything else is fanon.
Quote from: SM on Jan 07, 2024, 01:38:36 AMWhat part of the film lore is a mess?
I mean taking everything into account, including AvP...
Sped up lifecycle aliens on present day earth, eggs on the Sulaco, cloning Ripley to get aliens 200 yrs later, Ripley Hybrid Clone lady, Space Jockey is really a bald guy who created humans, US government knowing about the Alien and nuking a town to stop them. The whole process leading to the neomorph. Juvinile predalien queen pukes piles of embryos into a hosts belly. Just the idea of Weyland hitching a ride to meet the Space Jockey and getting dead by B*tch slap with the head of his own android.
Now an android is actually the creator of the Alien not too long before the original film. I just feel like if I take a step back its just a big mess.
Can't deal with reason, so starts engaging in personal insults. Give it a rest.
The point I raised is that Cameron was caught in a similar situation: in the first movie, they were thinking of things like spores and all that, and he argued that since such content was cut in the movie then he didn't use it in the second movie. That's basically it.
Eventually, Ridley brought back that aspect of the alien in the prequels, which means different life cycles and organisms are now part of the franchise. So it's no longer about just the egg, facehugger, and alien (including the queens, warriors or drones, and hybrids).
The implication, as I pointed out in another thread, is that you can have a "personal canon" if you like, but it's meaningless because something canonical is widely considered. In contrast, anything personal is stuck with you and your imaginary audience.
With that, what's canonical is what the IP holders allow. That means the ff.
There are different types of infestation, gestation, growth, and organisms.
New content can now be brought in to deal with what should be seen as discrepancies in the original films, and additional new content can be used to explain discrepancies that other new content created.
The franchise can move or expand in different directions. For example, they can come up with spinoffs like the new movie or add even more factors contributing to conflict (like AI and technology in general, similar to cloning, mutation, etc., in the fourth movie) which might take place for the TV show. From there, they can probably make TV or video versions of some of the games, comics, and novels, and even remake the first four movies. Or maybe even come up with "alternative universe" stories, like what happened to Burke, or adapting Gibson's unused script for the third movie (besides the audio drama).
The catch is that the novelty of the alien gets worn out fast, i.e., there's not much that one can say about it beyond what the four movies expressed, expect for something like a major war between the creatures and man. That's why the prequels were inevitable, with new content, like various authorized media and even the upcoming movie and TV show, used to fill in some content, e.g., the origins of the company, what happened to the colony, what happened to Amanda, and so on.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 07, 2024, 01:56:12 AMThe creature in the mural is a Deacon or a Neomorph-like being. You can even notice that the end of the head is pointed.
https://i.ibb.co/DrNHT8J/7691786250-9a8f27a6ed-b.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/JCQ1BJq/Ctvw0yc-XYAIPRf-B-jpg-large.jpg
There's also an ovomorph in the mural, before David 'creates' it;
(https://i.imgur.com/TMDdaJ2.jpeg)
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 07, 2024, 02:27:50 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 07, 2024, 01:56:12 AMThe creature in the mural is a Deacon or a Neomorph-like being. You can even notice that the end of the head is pointed.
https://i.ibb.co/DrNHT8J/7691786250-9a8f27a6ed-b.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/JCQ1BJq/Ctvw0yc-XYAIPRf-B-jpg-large.jpg
There's also an ovomorph in the mural, before David 'creates' it;
https://i.imgur.com/TMDdaJ2.jpeg
Yes, I remember it. This is when Shaw points out that "murals are changing." But it's so easter-egg like😅
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jan 07, 2024, 02:17:35 AMQuote from: SM on Jan 07, 2024, 01:38:36 AMWhat part of the film lore is a mess?
I mean taking everything into account, including AvP...
Sped up lifecycle aliens on present day earth, eggs on the Sulaco, cloning Ripley to get aliens 200 yrs later, Ripley Hybrid Clone lady, Space Jockey is really a bald guy who created humans, US government knowing about the Alien and nuking a town to stop them. The whole process leading to the neomorph. Juvinile predalien queen pukes piles of embryos into a hosts belly. Just the idea of Weyland hitching a ride to meet the Space Jockey and getting dead by B*tch slap with the head of his own android.
Now an android is actually the creator of the Alien not too long before the original film. I just feel like if I take a step back its just a big mess.
Well yeah if you include AvP it's a mess.
Which is why it's best not to.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 07, 2024, 02:31:17 AMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 07, 2024, 02:27:50 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 07, 2024, 01:56:12 AMThe creature in the mural is a Deacon or a Neomorph-like being. You can even notice that the end of the head is pointed.
https://i.ibb.co/DrNHT8J/7691786250-9a8f27a6ed-b.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/JCQ1BJq/Ctvw0yc-XYAIPRf-B-jpg-large.jpg
There's also an ovomorph in the mural, before David 'creates' it;
https://i.imgur.com/TMDdaJ2.jpeg
Yes, I remember it. This is when Shaw points out that "murals are changing." But it's so easter-egg like😅
And very ALIEN-egg like 😉
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 07, 2024, 02:27:50 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 07, 2024, 01:56:12 AMThe creature in the mural is a Deacon or a Neomorph-like being. You can even notice that the end of the head is pointed.
https://i.ibb.co/DrNHT8J/7691786250-9a8f27a6ed-b.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/JCQ1BJq/Ctvw0yc-XYAIPRf-B-jpg-large.jpg
There's also an ovomorph in the mural, before David 'creates' it;
https://i.imgur.com/TMDdaJ2.jpeg
There's also things that jump on people's faces that spawn things with long heads and gnashy teeth.
No one ever claimed David created the Aliens from scratch.
Quote from: SM on Jan 07, 2024, 02:34:07 AMQuote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 07, 2024, 02:27:50 AMQuote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 07, 2024, 01:56:12 AMThe creature in the mural is a Deacon or a Neomorph-like being. You can even notice that the end of the head is pointed.
https://i.ibb.co/DrNHT8J/7691786250-9a8f27a6ed-b.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/JCQ1BJq/Ctvw0yc-XYAIPRf-B-jpg-large.jpg
There's also an ovomorph in the mural, before David 'creates' it;
https://i.imgur.com/TMDdaJ2.jpeg
There's also things that jump on people's faces that spawn things with long heads and gnashy teeth.
No one ever claimed David created the Aliens from scratch.
Which is exactly my original point; he can be the creator of HIS Xenomorph (if we're calling it that) and the OG Xeno can still exist prior to him doing so.
In Jurassic Park, InGen creates a Velociraptor using blood from a fossilised Mosquito, and frog DNA. Everyone accepts that InGen scientists/Dr Wu as the creator. Everyone, including the script, calls the animal a Velociraptor (It's not). And 'true' Velociraptors still existed prior in the movies universe.
Same principle. David creates the "Xenomorph" seen in Covenant, nobody is disputing that. I'm saying that the species was around a long time prior. We see the progression of *his* creation in his lab. It's reverse Engineering of the black goo, itself a weaponised bi-product sourced from a Xenomorph, in conjunction with native fauna (just like the Frog DNA in JP) to create a close a match as possible).
Now is this the directors intention? Absolutely not; he's going for the whole 'the android did it'. But is there any reason it can't be interpreted this way given the info on screen between two movies? No, it can totally work. Therefore, I stand by my original statement that the movie, as it currently stands, is open to interpretation. I'm not saying any of what I just said is right or what's it's meant to be, simply that there are enough holes to allow it. Which negates claims that's it's not open to interpretation as baseless. It would have to be air-tight for that to be the case. There are too many "what-ifs" still open. All it definitively shows is that David uses the pathogen to create something that is very very close to (what we as the audience know to be) a Xenomorph.
That is how it could be retconned, yes.
But none of this is in the movie, and the whole "black goo is derived from Aliens" is pulled entirely out of thin air.
Covenant says David made the Alien.
Something later might correct that to "an Alien", but until it does, it's disingenuous to argue that Covenant is suggesting anything other than what it clearly lays out.
That's the point.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 07, 2024, 04:33:12 AMCovenant says David made the Alien.
You admire its purity?
Quote from: SiL on Jan 07, 2024, 04:33:12 AMThat is how it could be retconned, yes.
But none of this is in the movie, and the whole "black goo is derived from Aliens" is pulled entirely out of thin air.
Covenant says David made the Alien.
Something later might correct that to "an Alien", but until it does, it's disingenuous to argue that Covenant is suggesting anything other than what it clearly lays out.
That's the point.
Fair.
As for the black goo being derived from a xeno, I was coming from the angle that the weaponised black goo in the urns are placed next to a mural depicting face-hugging parasites, a xeno-esque centrepiece, and an ovomorph. Since the weapon does not result in these things, it's entirely possible it's derived from them. Sure, we see black goo create a deacon.. by infecting a human male, that has sex with a female, that female growing a trilobite, which then grows to giant size (not in the image and clearly not intended method of reproduction; that was random chance) we also see it create hammerpedes... there aren't anything like that on the mural.. the pathogen can create all kinds of wonderful chaotic things, so why show only the central creature and face-sized parasites when the weapon does not make these or result in these? Logical deduction; it comes from these.
Still, you can't really believably make the derelict work in 'Alien' if David creates the Xenomorph. Even if you roll with the whole "the ship can still be ancient, but can have crashed recently" and hypothesise that the ovomorphs were a recent addition... you can't account for the hole in the chest of the creature that has clearly been dead a lot longer than 10 years or less or the acid burn right next to it which perfectly emulates what we saw on the Nostromo and is strongly implied to be from a Xenomorph. If a Xenomorph got the space jockey, the species existed prior to David "creating it" either way.
We have no idea how long it's been dead because apparently that's a space suit, not a living organism (another thing I hope gets changed). It could easily be less than ten years.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 07, 2024, 05:00:26 AMWe have no idea how long it's been dead because apparently that's a space suit, not a living organism (another thing I hope gets changed). It could easily be less than ten years.
If we're playing the authorial intent card with Alien Covenant, we know the Jockey is meant to be real old in 'Alien'.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 07, 2024, 05:00:26 AMWe have no idea how long it's been dead because apparently that's a space suit, not a living organism (another thing I hope gets changed). It could easily be less than ten years.
That's something I'd have a hard time buying (personally); the 'suit' is organic, it has a skeleton/skull, we see it has flesh that syncs with user (it even blinks). I'd expect it'd decompose the same way as any other flesh. On Earth, full skeletonization of a human body, the final stage of decomposition, can take up to several years, with the main driver of decomposition being oxygen. As LV-426's indigenous atmosphere was described as "primordial", consisting mainly of nitrogen and carbon dioxide, with smaller quantities of oxygen, methane and ammonia (some of the latter existing in a frozen state), we would expect decomposition to take much much longer. For a Xenomorph to have burst from that host less than 10 years prior to the Nostromo finding it (probably considerable few years less, as David would need time to make several hundred new ovomorphs from the Covenant crew, locate a new juggernaut with a pilot to infect, and it to be in the vicinity of LV-426 when the burster pops).. I dunno, I'd expect it to be a fleshy, decomposing withering corpse, not something that could be 'mistaken' as fossilised. It's a hard sell for me. 😅
(Like you, I also hope the suit thing gets changed!) 😅
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 07, 2024, 05:24:09 AMQuote from: SiL on Jan 07, 2024, 05:00:26 AMWe have no idea how long it's been dead because apparently that's a space suit, not a living organism (another thing I hope gets changed). It could easily be less than ten years.
If we're playing the authorial intent card with Alien Covenant, we know the Jockey is meant to be real old in 'Alien'.
Good thing I'm not playing the authorial intent card in Covenant.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 07, 2024, 05:27:01 AMThat's something I'd have a hard time buying (personally); the 'suit' is organic, it has a skeleton/skull, we see it has flesh that syncs with user (it even blinks).
It has a helmet. Prometheus is pretty clear it's a biomechanical suit.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 07, 2024, 05:00:26 AMWe have no idea how long it's been dead because apparently that's a space suit, not a living organism (another thing I hope gets changed). It could easily be less than ten years.
If the Company only picked up the signal around the time of the Nostromo's voyage (give or take a year or two), then it makes the Derelict being there a shorter time more likely.
If it'd been transmitting for eons, someone else would've picked it up earlier.
That could depend on how much power was behind the signal and the frequency used.
And also space is big and it's off the beaten track.
It could even be something as simple as a deep space survey probe cataloging worlds does a fly-by of Zeta II Reticuli system and intercepts the transmission when it came in range, sending confirmation back through the network. It could have been there broadcasting for centuries without anyone intercepting it.
EDIT; it took over 57 years for Ripley's final report of the Nostromo to be picked up by an EEV on Fury 161 😂
ChatGPT elaborates:
QuoteYes, it's entirely possible for a signal transmitting continuously for millions of years to go unnoticed, even if it's coming from a relatively nearby star system like Zeta II Reticuli. This could happen for several reasons:
1. Signal Degradation Over Time: While the signal may have been strong at the source, it would weaken significantly over the vast distances of space. The further the signal travels, the more it spreads out and diminishes in strength, making it harder to detect.
2. Interference and Cosmic Noise: The signal would have to compete with cosmic background radiation and other natural space noises. Over millions of years, various cosmic events and changes in space conditions could also interfere with the signal, distorting or masking it by the time it reaches Earth.
3. Evolution of Detection Technology: Over millions of years, the signal might have passed by Earth at a time when there was no technology to detect it. Even if our current technology is capable of detecting such signals, it's a relatively recent development in the long timeline of the universe.
4. Changes in Frequency: As the universe expands, electromagnetic signals like radio waves experience redshift, where their frequency decreases and wavelength increases. A signal that started out on one frequency could shift to another over millions of years, possibly moving to a frequency range that is less monitored or harder to detect with current technology.
5. Directional Broadcasting: If the signal is directional and not omnidirectional, it's possible that it was never aimed towards Earth, or it could have shifted direction over time due to the movement of its source or other cosmic influences.
6. Human Observation Limitations: For most of human history, we lacked the technology to detect such signals. Even now, our ability to monitor the entire sky at all frequencies is limited. A continuous signal could have easily gone undetected simply because no one was listening in the right way at the right time.
In summary, a continuous signal from a distant star system like Zeta II Reticuli could feasibly go unnoticed due to a variety of factors, including signal weakening, cosmic interference, technological limitations, and the vast time scales involved. The universe is incredibly vast and complex, and our ability to detect and interpret signals from deep space is still developing.
Have you ever done ChatGPT on the question of the alien origin and whether Col. David is selling the original recipe or extra crispy? I'll know if I can trust AI or not at least depending upon the answer haha.
Having David be just as much as false god as the humans and Engineers he so despises would carry a delicious irony.
I would like the retcon to involve him just simply being a liar. He stole the Engineers creation and replicated it as best he could, passing it off as his own. But his creation was not quite the finished article and thus a failure, something he could not deal with.
Whilst I know the film depicts it as a standard xenomorph, the lack of biomechanics could help sell this illusion.
I do like the idea presented in Advent that the company's prior knowledge of the Alien, or at least some idea of what they might encounter on LV-426, could be perceived as coming from David though.
Therefore a company patent.
Hopefully the series will make it so that Covenant/Prometheus no longer has to affect the canon. The film is said to have some connection, I just hope its not overt or at least they reference some stuff without acknowledging David.
I hope it is overt if it calls for it. No need to avoid mentioning Peter Weyland for one example.
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Jan 07, 2024, 05:27:01 AMThat's something I'd have a hard time buying (personally); the 'suit' is organic, it has a skeleton/skull, we see it has flesh that syncs with user (it even blinks). I'd expect it'd decompose the same way as any other flesh.
I can't believe I need to say this, but it's biomechanical. One of the biggest features of the aesthetic both as created by Giger and used by others in various mediums, is the fact that it appears both alive and dead, organic and inorganic at the same time. As a style it's most often used as visual shorthand for "your rules no longer apply here".
When does it blink?
There's something that goes on with the eye in the "suit" scene, but I'm not convinced it's a blink. CBF getting the blurays out though, I only just packed them :laugh: .