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Independently from different host characteristics, do you feel like the aliens need different castes? Aside from queen and warrior ? If yes, which do you feel would make sense ?

I think, even you go with the space insect angle, different castes would only make sense in the biggest hives, where specialized organisms may be of use.
A lot of ant species  work well with just queens and workers and the same with wasps, which were used to create the protomorph in Covenant.

Option 1.

Quote from: SM on Nov 18, 2018, 11:16:35 AM
Option 1.

Indeeded.

I kind of liked the way things were done on AVP2(2001), we had bipedal and quadrupedal aliens depending which host they come from, praetorians who serve to guard the queen and be on standby in case a new one needs to be morphed into, multiple hives with multiple queens, who are ruled over by a bigger one(empress). That's for a big scale scenario.

If its a smaller setting, I wouldn't mind forgetting the hive and just having the original alien using egg morphing. That's how I see t on Isolation.

I'm cool with specialized castes.

I like the idea of a queen with a hive. Specialized roles within the hive leading to different xenomorphs all of the same hive though.

With that being said I still think they are horrific ancient cosmic creatures.

Quote from: DerelictShip on Nov 19, 2018, 02:12:09 AM
I like the idea of a queen with a hive. Specialized roles within the hive leading to different xenomorphs all of the same hive though.

With that being said I still think they are horrific ancient cosmic creatures.

To clarify, I don't think "horrific cosmic creatures" is incompatible with specialized castes - if anything, it shows that they're mutable and adaptable to any situation, and you can't predict what they're going to come up with next.

Maybe we shouldn't consider the Xenos from Alien and the ones from Aliens to be the same creatures. They might be different subspecies and only the ones from Aliens have castes.

Option 1 fo sho.

Quote from: Doctor Ash on Nov 19, 2018, 11:17:38 AM
Maybe we shouldn't consider the Xenos from Alien and the ones from Aliens to be the same creatures. They might be different subspecies and only the ones from Aliens have castes.

While the easy counter-argument to that is "they all came from the same batch of eggs", the easy counter for that is "that doesn't mean every egg = the same Alien".

This isn't the first time I've seen this theory; it's an interesting one, but ultimately I don't agree with it.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 20, 2018, 11:18:04 AM

Quote from: Doctor Ash on Nov 19, 2018, 11:17:38 AM
Maybe we shouldn't consider the Xenos from Alien and the ones from Aliens to be the same creatures. They might be different subspecies and only the ones from Aliens have castes.

While the easy counter-argument to that is "they all came from the same batch of eggs", the easy counter for that is "that doesn't mean every egg = the same Alien".

This isn't the first time I've seen this theory; it's an interesting one, but ultimately I don't agree with it.

A hint that this theory might be true is the different design of the eggs in both movies.

More than option one but not entirely option two either. They don't have to be highly specialized but I think it is more than queen and drone/warrior.

Option 1 with the ability for Eggmorphing added in with some decent rules about how and why it happends

I think the easy explanation is eggmorphing occurs to generate a Praetorian/Royal Facehugger, when there's no Queen.

Quote from: The Old One on Nov 25, 2018, 11:53:02 PM
I think the easy explanation is eggmorphing occurs to generate a Praetorian/Royal Facehugger, when there's no Queen.

That's the explanation I've gone with for years.

I tend to think that every soldier alien serves the role of "drone/warrior/praetorian" and all have the ability to reproduce.  Perhaps they can only do so once, which could explain why Brett's corpse was morphing into an egg and Dallas was intentionally kept alive to serve as a host.

Quote from: The Old One on Nov 25, 2018, 11:53:02 PM
I think the easy explanation is eggmorphing occurs to generate a Praetorian/Royal Facehugger, when there's no Queen.

Yeah, that's been my fanon for a while too.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 26, 2018, 10:07:53 AM
which could explain why Brett's corpse was morphing into an egg and Dallas was intentionally kept alive to serve as a host.

There are those on this forum who would vehemently argue that Dallas was also being turned into an egg.

(I happen to agree with your assessment)

 Ridley may have have changed his mind later but the original concept was both, Dallas and Brett, were turning into eggs.

Quote from: Doctor Ash on Nov 26, 2018, 11:11:14 AM
Ridley may have have changed his mind later but the original concept was both, Dallas and Brett, were turning into eggs.

Well yeah and the original concept for the Alien was that it was going to be translucent, but that's not what ended up on screen. :P

Dallas' cocoon is clearly going egg-shaped, so it's not like the idea wasn't filmed.

That's not the impression I got from Dallas' cocoon, I figured that was just what some Alien cocoons looked like. In my head it made more sense for Dallas to be the host for Brett's egg, but hey Aliens do weird shit and the original idea was that all the eggs on the Derelict were the eggmorphed crew, so who knows?

He's sitting curled in a ball, the cocoon is bowl-shaped, and it's starting to grow petals.

So perhaps the first Xeno of any new event is like Big Chap and in the absence of certain Pheromones, let's say, that indicates a Queen or existing Hive in place, creates a royal egg via eggmorphing.

Then becomes subordinate to the future queen and no longer needs to Egg morph.

Perhaps you could say that in initiating the egg morphing, drone that does this actually sacrifices its self and begins to die due to the effects of creating and egg. This could be a nice nod to the idea that Big Chap was said to be deteriorating in some earlier scripts/drafts.

As evidenced in Aliens, the entire scene was apparently retconned out of Ripley's memory and she defined "cocooned" as merely being used as hosts for the eggs.

Quote from: SiL on Nov 26, 2018, 11:51:37 AM
He's sitting curled in a ball, the cocoon is bowl-shaped, and it's starting to grow petals.

To each their own, and I don't know that it matters much either way. Within the context of 'Alien' it makes sense that he's turning into an egg, especially given the implied fate of the Space Jockey crew. Within the context of 'Aliens', I think it makes more sense that he's going to be the host for Brett's (presumed) Queen-facehugger.

Quote from: SiL on Nov 26, 2018, 11:51:37 AM
He's sitting curled in a ball, the cocoon is bowl-shaped, and it's starting to grow petals.

Quite.

If Dallas was supposed to be a host, Ripley could've broken him out same as how she did with Newt.

What if Dallas was too injured?  Just because he was kept alive doesn't mean he was treated gently.  The alien may have broken his limbs during a struggle, leaving him essentially helpless and in excruciating pain.

Kinda like how they treated their victims in Labyrinth.

He wasn't too injured though - just too far gone in the egg morphing process that he preferred death.

I was responding to this:

Quote from: SM on Nov 26, 2018, 07:36:40 PM
If Dallas was supposed to be a host, Ripley could've broken him out same as how she did with Newt.

Yeah I know.

I don't imagine Dallas is going to say 'kill me' over some broken bones if there's an autodoc upstairs.

I suspect it'd depend on the severity of his injuries and the chances of actually getting to that autodoc while the alien was still on the loose (and before the ship exploded). 

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IWillOnlySlowYouDown (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IWillOnlySlowYouDown)

I don't picture Dallas asking for death or Ripley granting it if he wasn't as good as dead already.

Quote from: SM on Nov 27, 2018, 12:10:15 AM
I don't picture Dallas asking for death or Ripley granting it if he wasn't as good as dead already.

We don't know what the Alien did to him, be it turning him into an egg or any other horrific fate. Ripley doesn't know what she's looking at, he's in agony and begging to die (regardless of whether he's actually for-realsies terminally injured or not), Ripley obliges him because who knows what's going on?

It's like Lambert - we don't know what happened, but we know it wasn't good.

Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 27, 2018, 12:55:48 AM

Quote from: SM on Nov 27, 2018, 12:10:15 AM
I don't picture Dallas asking for death or Ripley granting it if he wasn't as good as dead already.

We don't know what the Alien did to him, be it turning him into an egg or any other horrific fate. Ripley doesn't know what she's looking at, he's in agony and begging to die (regardless of whether he's actually for-realsies terminally injured or not), Ripley obliges him because who knows what's going on?

It's like Lambert - we don't know what happened, but we know it wasn't good.

At least he didn't have to drink out of a pool of green alien semen like Church did.  Or did he?

Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 27, 2018, 01:08:10 AM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 27, 2018, 12:55:48 AM

Quote from: SM on Nov 27, 2018, 12:10:15 AM
I don't picture Dallas asking for death or Ripley granting it if he wasn't as good as dead already.

We don't know what the Alien did to him, be it turning him into an egg or any other horrific fate. Ripley doesn't know what she's looking at, he's in agony and begging to die (regardless of whether he's actually for-realsies terminally injured or not), Ripley obliges him because who knows what's going on?

It's like Lambert - we don't know what happened, but we know it wasn't good.

At least did didn't have to drink out of a pool of green alien semen like Church did.  Or did he?

Could we even see if Dallas still *had* arms and legs? Maybe he wasn't kneeling or crouching, maybe he was... shorter than he used to be. :P

Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 27, 2018, 01:24:35 AM
Could we even see if Dallas still *had* arms and legs? Maybe he wasn't kneeling or crouching, maybe he was... shorter than he used to be. :P

That's why I mentioned Labyrinth.  Whether it's canon or not, it's conceptually relevant to the discussion.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 27, 2018, 01:26:48 AM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 27, 2018, 01:24:35 AM
Could we even see if Dallas still *had* arms and legs? Maybe he wasn't kneeling or crouching, maybe he was... shorter than he used to be. :P

That's why I mentioned Labyrinth.  Whether it's canon or not, it's conceptually relevant to the discussion.

Labyrinth is canon. It's more canon than the movies. Labyrinth is love, Labyrinth is life.

Praise be the One True Aliens Comic.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 27, 2018, 01:26:48 AM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 27, 2018, 01:24:35 AM
Could we even see if Dallas still *had* arms and legs? Maybe he wasn't kneeling or crouching, maybe he was... shorter than he used to be. :P

That's why I mentioned Labyrinth.  Whether it's canon or not, it's conceptually relevant to the discussion.

Is it?

It inspired me to imagine that the alien may have maimed Dallas to the point where he was too crippled to resist.  Kinda like Church's mom.

Quote from: SM on Nov 27, 2018, 01:37:28 AM

Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 27, 2018, 01:26:48 AM

Quote from: Xenomrph on Nov 27, 2018, 01:24:35 AM
Could we even see if Dallas still *had* arms and legs? Maybe he wasn't kneeling or crouching, maybe he was... shorter than he used to be. :P

That's why I mentioned Labyrinth.  Whether it's canon or not, it's conceptually relevant to the discussion.

Is it?

People who have been messed up by Aliens, begging for death?

Does it even matter?  If Ripley actually saw what was happening to Brett and Dallas, she didn't connect the dots 57 years later when the subject came up again.  Hell, she didn't even recount her observation and let someone else float the suggestion that the aliens may turn their prey into eggs.  She just pointedly asked Bishop where they came from as if she had no information that may shed further light on the matter.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 27, 2018, 01:41:38 AM
It inspired me to imagine that the alien may have maimed Dallas to the point where he was too crippled to resist.  Kinda like Church's mom.

The crippling parts could fit.  Though it does seem a little OTT.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Nov 27, 2018, 01:58:47 AM
Does it even matter?  If Ripley actually saw what was happening to Brett and Dallas, she didn't connect the dots 57 years later when the subject came up again.  Hell, she didn't even recount her observation and let someone else float the suggestion that the aliens may turn their prey into eggs.  She just pointedly asked Bishop where they came from as if she had no information that may shed further light on the matter.

Quite.

Such are the perils of recutting films.

Didn't the novelization mention that some of the colonists had their limbs broken when the aliens unceremoniously shoved them into their cocoon alcoves?  I could swear I read that back in the day.

Think the script mentions it as well.

Not as such.  Something similar though.

QuoteApone stops, his expression changing.  They face a
        wall of living horror.  The colonists have been
        brought here and entombed alive...

        COCOONS protrude from the niches and interstices
        of the structure.  The cocoon material is the same
        translucent epoxy.  The bodies are frozen in
        carelessly twisted positions.  Macabre image of
        frozen agony.  Many are disiccated.  Skeletal.
        Rip-cages burst outward, as if exploded from within.
        Paralyzed, brought here, entombed in living death
        as hosts for the embryos growing within then.

"Carelessly twisted", that's the one.

What about the novelization?  Doesn't SM have it committed to memory?

"...arms and legs had been grotesquely twisted; broken when necessary..."

Yeah.  "Memory".