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Posted by windebieste
 - Sep 30, 2015, 09:58:16 PM
So, what exactly does an 'intellectual story' consist of?

-Windebieste.
Posted by monkeylove
 - Sep 30, 2015, 07:49:01 PM
The forum section refers to films and TV shows, but several of the examples given are video games.
Posted by Xenomorphine
 - Sep 30, 2015, 03:14:58 PM
All you're pointing out is that one represents hardship and the other skimps over that. It's not the same thing as one being an intellectual story. :)

'Alien' is a continuity which feels more relateable. The characters act more like real people. But that's presentation. That doesn't mean what is being presented to us somehow requires more intelligence to comprehend. If anything, it works better by the audience applying their common sense to the situations.

It's like 'Prometheus' always being held up as 'intelligent' science-fiction, when it's really not. Something can deal with profound issues in a relatively generic or straight forward way (especially if the resulting revelations are relatively nonsensical). The story and situations don't need to be on a different intellectual level to do that.

It takes a deep level of artistic understanding to fully appreciate some of the things Giger and Scott were trying to represent, but I don't think that necessarily qualifies as intellectual.
Posted by windebieste
 - Sep 29, 2015, 10:46:24 PM
While that's true, 'Star Wars' isn't bereft of intellectual debate, either. 

The difference between the 2 movies is 'ALIEN' wears all of it's content up front.  All the themes are presented to the viewer on screen.  They range from the dangers, difficulties and hardship of space travel; the influence and power of Super corporate entities; plunging into the unknown and it's repurcussions.  Along with other more mundane and prosaic issues like pay inequity and will the coffee be any good when we do start working in space. 

Much of 'Star Wars' intellectual discourse is different.  Good vs Evil is the obvious fundamental theme present on screen but the high end content is concealed beneath the surface.   You don't see it.   For example, much of the themes are based on Lucas' use of liberal use of material Joseph Campbell raises.  You have to look externally beyond those movies to research the ideas Lucas was using as inspiration or come into the cinema with them 'on your sleeve' so to speak, in order to understand the Heroic Mythology that is present under the Saturday Morning bubblegum content of the movies. 

As a result, 'ALIEN' has enjoyed it's intellectual discussions for different reasons.   Being a very different movie, it's discussion will be far removed because in many ways, 'ALIEN' is the antithesis of 'Star Wars'.  It's almost a polar opposite.  Space travel is difficult, aliens do not liberally populate the galaxy like so many anthropomorphised cartoon characters in a Warner bros cartoon; and the pay rate sucks.   Whereas 'Star Wars' is more concerned about playing 'cowboys and indians in space'. 

That's not a bad thing - and I'm happy for it - but the content of both movies is so different it's not even comparable.

-Windebieste.
Posted by Xenomorphine
 - Sep 29, 2015, 06:59:39 PM
Quote from: windebieste on Sep 29, 2015, 01:34:15 AM
If 'ALIEN' was lacking in intellectual content, then why has there been so much discussion about it for over 30 years?

For the same reasons as there has for 'Star Wars'. Something doesn't have to be intellectual to spark passionate inspiration.
Posted by hfeldhaus
 - Sep 29, 2015, 03:57:16 PM
The sheer amount of connotation, symbolism and the allowance of scope make Alien an intellectual film. This is a film made in the 70's that directly subverted gender roles, something which is still rarely achieved today. The bare bones of Alien require little intelligence to understand, but to understand Alien requires intelligence.  Isn't that why we're all fans here? We can see past the shock and horror, and see what was really intended by Scott and O'Bannon.
Posted by System Apollo
 - Sep 29, 2015, 01:34:06 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Sep 29, 2015, 08:13:18 AM
but it's certainly a smart film.
Definitely! The dialogue, the tone, characters, design, etc. Were all done with critical thinking and a collective effort. What I admire most of Alien is the way I picture the set at the time it was being shot. The completely and total different era where things had to be done practically and attentively with very little to work with.
Posted by Corporal Hicks
 - Sep 29, 2015, 08:13:18 AM
It depends what you mean by intelligent. Because Alien isn't an unintelligent film by any point of view. It's not a cerebral film (like Prometheus wanted to be) but it's certainly a smart film. And I would disagree that the characters were stupid.
Posted by System Apollo
 - Sep 29, 2015, 07:24:55 AM
The intelligence behind Alien comes from our fanaticism of the series. We have these debates because we take it further on our interpretation of the film. I agree with Xenomorphine, it's hard to claim that it is intelligent when you compare it to films that strictly try to follow that specific tone. Prometheus (although not the best example seeing as it is poorly received by a lot fans) is intellectual in its tone. Another Sci-Fi film would probably be Interstellar which tries to be intellectual in tone as well. In general; films that try to engage the audience to think and problem solve whilst presenting is something that indicates its intelligence. In Alien that element isn't there for a casual viewer, however; it is there for a fanatic because they are genuinely intrigued of the film and want to know more. But don't let this statement give you the impression that this is a golden rule for an intellectual film, just a personal opinion really.
Posted by windebieste
 - Sep 29, 2015, 01:34:15 AM
If 'ALIEN' was lacking in intellectual content, then why has there been so much discussion about it for over 30 years? 

Discussions that involve the nature of space travel.  How difficult it is to travel through space.  What we may stand to gain and lose by engaging in such an activity.  how it may be treated as an everyday job for workers in the coming Centuries.  ...and that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of intellectual debates that absolutely litter the pages across this website and others. 

There's the debates of corporate greed and manipulation.  Ownership of vast resources and their abuse by such corporate entities.  I've seen no end of discussion regarding the nature of the technical achievements of space travel and dubious corporate behaviour but the intellectual discourse goes way beyond that.  There's the abuse of human rights for the greater gains of profit.  All of these are intellectual themes and debates that viewers of these movies have engaged in over the years. 

Then on top of all that movie is very much an exploration of the Rational Vs Irrational.  The Nostromo is depicted as a vessel carrying its crew into unknown territory and confronting the Unknown.  Dallas and his crew find themselves in dire straights by confronting an inexplicable and incomprehensible force right from the moment they leave the safe and comfort of the ship.  Mother can no longer protect them once they return.  The movie is rife with this kind of subtext.

There's also the hideous notion of machine intelligence posing as human.  A notion that  explores the nature of deceit by enforcing the very basic premise that 'Any machine made in the physical or psychological likeness of a man is constructed to deceive people'. 

There's a ton of subtextual elements to this movie.  Not just the basic premise of 'Space monster eats crew alive'.  If you think that is that all this movie is about then maybe 'Star Wars' is  more at your intellectual level. 

Because one thing is for certain, 'ALIEN' is not a fairy tale aimed at children.   That's for sure.   

-Windebieste.
Posted by NickisSmart
 - Sep 29, 2015, 12:42:08 AM
Why are art and imagination separated from intelligence?

If it's appealing to the intelligence of an audience, then I think that Alien does a fine job of being intellectual because it plays on my fears in an intelligent way. However, one might argue that my imagination is irrational and therefore not intelligent, but I don't believe this to be the case. Intelligence isn't synonymous with rationality. Imagination is always required on some level.

Does the film literally have to ask us questions to appeal to the intelligence of an audience, like a professor to his students, or can it present us material with which to form our own questions and still be considered intellectual? And that's the problem: I think it's wrong to assign adjectives like "intellectual" to a film, which isn't a living, thinking thing. It's not intellectual; its makers are. And the content of a film isn't just words, but images, too, and these can be intelligently created in a way that makes visual sense. If intellectualism is merely the technology of words, of intelligent-sounding dialogue and academic jargon crammed into what amounts to the film makers' thesis, onscreen, then very few films would come close to intellectual. However, movies are first and foremost a visual medium and visuals will always take precedent.

The Iconoclasm of the Renaissance saw the shifting of the Latin texts into the vernacular English, and the visual splendor of the Catholic churches reformed into barren halls, where the knowledge was in the words on pages, not the beauty of stained glass windows. But visual-learning and the acquisition of knowledge come naturally to humans. Written language and the use of technology do not and must be taught. We look at this as an excuse to say that it's intelligent, but past a certain point, the ability to learn language decreases exponentially. Does that mean that we get dumber as we get older? Pictures can be understood at any age and can convey great meaning. And before you say that they are illusory and written words have definitions that do not change, this is simply not the case. Letters and numbers are merely symbols that have no meaning in and of themselves, any more than the Mona Lisa does, or the symbolism in The Last Supper. The meaning of words changes over time. Language is a organic mass that evolves, just like the schools of criticism that attempt to analyze and critique classical literature. These are merely standards that shift and change, much in the same manner as the opinion of someone looking at a piece of art. Perhaps it's because they're one in the same thing.
Posted by Xenomorphine
 - Sep 28, 2015, 08:07:33 PM
Quote from: Born Of Cold Light on Sep 28, 2015, 12:58:53 AM
Isolation itself wasn't all that intellectual, but it was miles beyond in that regard to the previous first person shooters where everyone was telling each other to stay frosty all the time.

Again, that's more to do with presentation style: Level design, sound effects and so on. It's a repetitive fetch-and-carry/hide-and-seek quest system. It's just presented very slickly.

QuoteWhen I said "intellectual," I was more referring to Prometheus which began to take the series back to its psychological horror roots.

Ehhh... I can't say I found anything about 'Prometheus' successfully unsettling/disturbing/scary.

Quote from: NickisSmart on Sep 28, 2015, 12:30:30 PM
How would you define intellectual? If you view the game as a haunted house in outer space with a monster that has metal teeth, with lots of hiding and screaming, then by all accounts, Alien isn't intellectual, either. But I think it is, and so is the game. The chief difference is one's interactive.

But you're right - 'Alien' very much isn't intellectual. :) Even Scott famously said it wouldn't have worked if the characters hadn't been stupid.

It's a lot more famous for its artistic presentation than an intelligent story.

QuoteIs it wrong to say that the game is intellectual because it understands fear and tension? I don't think it is. Sure they pared down certain ideas and the communication is visual, but so what? Does intellectualism have to be isolated to literature alone, or can it extend into any medium, of any of the 5 senses? Can paintings be intellectual to? I think so. What about subject matter? Prometheus may have had a flawed execution, but it appealed to intellectual, academic literature, including Paradise Lost and Frankenstein.

Artists and symbolism can be intellectual, because there's just as much room for interpretation in literature as there is in paintings. There's no "transcendental signified."

But you're talking about art. For something to be intellectual, it needs to engage or appeal to the intelligence of its audience. The 'Alien' series is visceral and artistic when at its best, but I'm not convinced it can be regarded as truly intellectual. There are points where it can feel like that, but it's fleeting and illusionary. The whole point of why 'Alien' succeeded was because it was essentially a B-movie which dressed itself up as an A-lister.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Something doesn't have to be intellectual in order to be good. Many things which are intellectual can come across as plodding difficult to understand and even pretentious. Having layers of artistic sub-text (mostly in the special effects, not the story they play a part in) doesn't equate to being 'intellectual' - just very talented.
Posted by hfeldhaus
 - Sep 28, 2015, 05:00:54 PM
Didn't Scott say it was always planned to be called Alien: Paradise Lost? But yeah it's a pretty exciting time for an Alien fan. My main hope is that it starts attracting quality writers. I don't have confidence in Blomkamp's or Green's writing right now, hopefully that will change.
Posted by OmegaZilla
 - Sep 28, 2015, 01:21:49 PM
We're full-on Alien decadence, really.
Posted by NickisSmart
 - Sep 28, 2015, 12:30:30 PM
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Sep 27, 2015, 09:31:28 PM
The game really isn't intellectual. Definitely artistic, no argument there. Intellectual, no.

How would you define intellectual? If you view the game as a haunted house in outer space with a monster that has metal teeth, with lots of hiding and screaming, then by all accounts, Alien isn't intellectual, either. But I think it is, and so is the game. The chief difference is one's interactive.

Is it wrong to say that the game is intellectual because it understands fear and tension? I don't think it is. Sure they pared down certain ideas and the communication is visual, but so what? Does intellectualism have to be isolated to literature alone, or can it extend into any medium, of any of the 5 senses? Can paintings be intellectual to? I think so. What about subject matter? Prometheus may have had a flawed execution, but it appealed to intellectual, academic literature, including Paradise Lost and Frankenstein.

Artists and symbolism can be intellectual, because there's just as much room for interpretation in literature as there is in paintings. There's no "transcendental signified."
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