Or would you prefer Ridley to FINNALY explore some of the horrific elements of egg-morphing?
I do love the Queen but we've seen her 3 times now. I won't deny I'll have my 'f**k yeah' moment if she were to gloriously appear either as a final boss type or even just a cameo. I think Ridley could make her really nasty and disturbing.
But. Imagine the horror potential of the egg morhping finnaly getting its own plot point. I sort hoped we'd get to see some of it in Alien Isolation.
Eggmorphing would result in less colonists being avaible as hosts, so a queen seems more logical for creating a xeno army.
I would prefer a slightly different appearance if she's made out of Daniels.
Yeah I would definitely
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Nov 14, 2017, 08:26:12 PM
Eggmorphing would result in less colonists being avaible as hosts, so a queen seems more logical for creating a xeno army.
I would prefer a slightly different appearance if she's made out of Daniels.
Don't see how it's more logical unless you're just talking about numbers.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Nov 14, 2017, 08:26:12 PM
Eggmorphing would result in less colonists being avaible as hosts, so a queen seems more logical for creating a xeno army.
I would prefer a slightly different appearance if she's made out of Daniels.
If each Alien egg-morphed its former host, you'd still end up with much the same number.
That said, I think it'd be great if we heard a Queen, but not see it. Leave the reveal for Aliens.
To discover that David created those too? Nah thanks. TBH I don't want Scott anywhere near any Alien movie anymore.
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 15, 2017, 12:22:53 AMDon't see how it's more logical unless you're just talking about numbers.
Yeah, just numbers.
Quote from: SM on Nov 15, 2017, 12:28:26 AMIf each Alien egg-morphed its former host, you'd still end up with much the same number.
Thought the hosts have to be alive.
Like the wasp species, that influenced the Alien lifecycle, who lays its eggs in paralysed victims.
Brett wasn't alive.
What use are eggs if you have no hosts? Queen produces a lot of eggs, that's it.
The aliens mostly kill people, anyway. Unless a facehugger can implant a dead host, it's a waste.
As SM said, the host doesn't need to be alive for egg morphing. The alien can happily go about killing then turn them into eggs. Way better.
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 15, 2017, 12:22:53 AM
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Nov 14, 2017, 08:26:12 PM
Eggmorphing would result in less colonists being avaible as hosts, so a queen seems more logical for creating a xeno army.
I would prefer a slightly different appearance if she's made out of Daniels.
Don't see how it's more logical unless you're just talking about numbers.
Parasites don't care about numbers. If they succeed in breeding and kill the hosts in an environment, that's all that matters. They don't keep cattle or perform sustainable agricultural practices. They don't care if a host species becomes extinct - just so long as that generation procreates. If it means they die too; well they don't give a shit. Really.
In the case of the Alien and eggmorphing. As long as there are humans around, eggmorphing has a purpose. Once all the humans are gone, the Alien has successfully run its course. This is what we are seeing David embarking upon now.
The idea of a Queen has gotten stale. I bet if Scott implements one, it will be on his terms. It will differ from what Cameron delivered in 'ALIENS' because it's been over-used in subsequent movies, comics, video games... Scott doesn't like to revisit stale concepts. He's more likely to re-use eggmorphing - and idea that he alone has implemented and really hasn't been seen since. We've seen him revisit abandon ideas in recent movies. It's a safe bet the 2000 colonists aboard the Covenant are now eggs, ready to be deployed on a colony world.
No. I don't believe for an instant David is heading to Origae 6. There's no point - and tell me how much you trust anything he says. He'll head for the best established colony to deliver his payload. Maybe a colony of 12k people.
Scott said Epic. So think Epic.
The Cameron Queen, on the other hand... lol. Too over- exposed for his vision. If he uses a Queen, it will be substantially different to what we are familiar with. Otherwise, what's the point?
-Windebieste.
Imo the Queen could be a side line monster.
* I would like to see a focus on some surviving Engineers vs. David either on the settlement planet or in deep space.
- Wouldn't the Engineers be pissed after what David did to their home planet?
- As for the monsters, within the budget (~$100 million), I'd want some battle between Engineer led monsters (Neomorphs/Deacons) vs. David's team of xenos and maybe a Queen on David's side as an added bonus.
- I'd like a return of Walter (maybe helping the Engineers; who emerges from their ship?).
- As for humans (besides a human ship which starts the movie by blundering into David), there could be some who got away from David who are hiding on the settlement planet or are in an escape pod.
* In the end I'd be happy if the Engineers (+their monsters), Walter and the surviving humans all go against David (and his xenos).
- I don't know if anyone else thinks that would work but this kind of story has been forming in my mind ever since I saw "Covenant".
;)
It's pretty safe to assume we'll see a queen given the content of The Advent and given that the queen was a nice and creative addition to the series. Eggmorphing doesn't make much sense, and more importantly it comes from a deleted, i.e. non-canon, scene.
I'm sure we'll see a queen, but like the xenomorph it will be much more sturdy and ferocious and it won't lose in a 1v1 vs. a girl in a robot suit.
How about multiple queens serving as an egg factory? :D
Quote from: SM on Nov 15, 2017, 01:11:17 AM
Brett wasn't alive.
Oh. Ok, didn't remember.
No, but if he does have a Queen in the sequel, make it look completely different.
I'd prefer egg-morphing because I find it far more disturbing. That said I quite like the idea of David turning Daniels into the queen and think Ridley could make that work.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 15, 2017, 10:06:31 AM
I'd prefer egg-morphing because I find it far more disturbing. That said I quite like the idea of David turning Daniels into the queen and think Ridley could make that work.
Totally creepy. Talk about a truly miserable end...slowly morphing into an egg / face hugger.
I'd like to see Daniels transformed into a Queen, but not an Alien queen like we saw in Aliens. I would want something far creepy, something like what we saw with Shaw. A mutilated body attached to all sort of Giger-esque contraptions.
David is after efficiency, so creating a Queen that could lay eggs capable of hatching Aliens rather than facehuggers seems like the next obvious step. Which is apparently what some of the eggs on the original Derelict could do...right? Unless I'm missing something.
That said, I want something far creepier and more nuanced than just a big ass Alien queen.
No, I do not really want to see a queen again. Been done to death. New creature please.
Save the Queen for Blomkamp's Alien5.
Quote from: bleau on Nov 15, 2017, 06:49:37 PM
No, I do not really want to see a queen again. Been done to death. New creature please.
Been done to death in ... two films?
Quote from: SM on Nov 15, 2017, 10:48:45 PM
Quote from: bleau on Nov 15, 2017, 06:49:37 PM
No, I do not really want to see a queen again. Been done to death. New creature please.
Been done to death in ... two films?
Three films.
5 films if you count the queen chestburster in Alien 3 and the Predalien Queen in AVPR.
Quote from: Alionic on Nov 16, 2017, 04:11:18 AM
Quote from: SM on Nov 15, 2017, 10:48:45 PM
Quote from: bleau on Nov 15, 2017, 06:49:37 PM
No, I do not really want to see a queen again. Been done to death. New creature please.
Been done to death in ... two films?
Three films.
If you include AvP. But why would anyone do that?
Quote from: TWJones on Nov 15, 2017, 02:35:40 PM
I'd like to see Daniels transformed into a Queen, but not an Alien queen like we saw in Aliens. I would want something far creepy, something like what we saw with Shaw. A mutilated body attached to all sort of Giger-esque contraptions.
This what I'd like to see too. I'd like to see some more direct Giger-esque body horror type of stuff so either something like David working on mutating someone into something biomechanical or the good ol' eggmorphing. Unfortunately, given that it sounds like both Scott and Fox want to avoid going too Giger, I doubt we'll get that kind of thing. Because why directly embrace one of the aspects that made the original stand out so much?
Btw guys. Have we actually ever seen a Queen Alien physically murder someone on screen? Not death by association as with egg implantation.
I don't remember it.
We saw the first b!tch stab Bishop and rip her apart ( though he was artificial and still functioning after that, plus his "blood" was white, not THAT disturbing)
I don't think we've ever seen one killing a person like an ordinarry Xeno would do ( bite them, stab them, possibly rape them )
IF Ridley chooses to include a Queen in his swansong I would love a scene where it enters a room and kills people 'Alien Isolation' style. Guns would not work, running would not work, nothing would..
Like a giant 10 feet wolf amongst sheep. Biting of limbs, snapping of necks, playing jousting games with its tail. Blood and gore included. Damn.
There's probably a thin line between Alien Covenant 2 and Species 4 if you're doing the biomech thing. I don't think it'd work. I've got visions of the rock in the mummy returns already.
Quote from: Berend on Nov 16, 2017, 10:54:49 AM
Btw guys. Have we actually ever seen a Queen Alien physically murder someone on screen? Not death by association as with egg implantation.
I don't remember it.
We saw the first b!tch stab Bishop and rip her apart ( though he was artificial and still functioning after that, plus his "blood" was white, not THAT disturbing)
I don't think we've ever seen one killing a person like an ordinarry Xeno would do ( bite them, stab them, possibly rape them )
IF Ridley chooses to include a Queen in his swansong I would love a scene where it enters a room and kills people 'Alien Isolation' style. Guns would not work, running would not work, nothing would..
Like a giant 10 feet wolf amongst sheep. Biting of limbs, snapping of necks, playing jousting games with its tail. Blood and gore included. Damn.
I guess it killed a predator in AvP, but yeah, the queen hasn't been fully utilized. The scene where it rips bishop apart is cool, but at the same time it also leaves kind of a bad taste in your mouth that James Cameron cucked you out of a true gore shower because killing any of the human characters would've not been popular with the studio executives and soccer moms etc. in the audience.
The Queen hasn't killed anybody onscreen because it is useless in combat. It's so stiff and awkward with gangly arms and legs.
The thing can barely move and is too big for stealth.
Both people it stabbed were just standing there.
A human can outrun it as seen in AVP.
Would a powerloader work against an ordinary alien?
Who is that guy who hates the skull underneath the dome? I'm like that with the queen. Nothing against those who like it.
Yeah he was really chasing the soccer mom demographic...
The Aliens hate seems to go up exponentially with each Scott film.
Quote from: TWJones on Nov 15, 2017, 02:35:40 PM
I'd like to see Daniels transformed into a Queen, but not an Alien queen like we saw in Aliens. I would want something far creepy, something like what we saw with Shaw. A mutilated body attached to all sort of Giger-esque contraptions.
This. And she's kept a live in some horrible state. Attached to whatever devices or half-morphed or something.
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 17, 2017, 05:35:12 AM
A human can outrun it as seen in AVP.
Lex had a head start the Queen was on her ass and catching up quick. If she didn't get under that water tower the Queen could have easily overtaken her and Lex would be f**ked.
Yeah the length of the Queen's stride means it'd catch most humans unless they find cover. The Queen on the Sulaco would've caught Ripley too had she not got behind that door.
She has long legs, doesn't mean she's fast. She was too slow to catch Ripley, when she was standing right in front of her. No head start on that one. Also, Lex barely had a head start either.
If Ripley hadn't got to cover the queen would have caught up. Anderson specifically had the whale bones slowing the queen down in AvP so it didn't catch up to Lex too quickly.
Just work on the writing problems.
End the franchise with the Alien King.
I would love to see another queen and while I am not overly fond of the newer movies plots and pacing; I don't care for keeping the designs 'pure' and exactly the same as the original designs despite being hugely into them. So a new queen, with a few different elements would be great to see and I feel like it would round off the new movies well and also feel strongly 20th will jab at Ridley to put one in for the attention it will bring in.
I suspect most of the new movie will be all about David and then shes just a side on that shows up, much like in Covenant.
As for an Alien King? Wouldn't mind seeing how they handle a beefy boy but doubt they will give us one.
Quote from: Master on Nov 15, 2017, 12:47:14 AM
To discover that David created those too? Nah thanks. TBH I don't want Scott anywhere near any Alien movie anymore.
:laugh: exactly what i was thinking.
Quote from: Killveous on Nov 19, 2017, 04:44:13 PM
As for an Alien King? Wouldn't mind seeing how they handle a beefy boy but doubt they will give us one.
I was half joking half serious on that suggestion. Sideshow Collectibles has a maquette of the King, but I agree with you, I find it unlikely it will make a feature film appearance.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Nov 19, 2017, 07:16:00 PM
Quote from: Master on Nov 15, 2017, 12:47:14 AM
To discover that David created those too? Nah thanks. TBH I don't want Scott anywhere near any Alien movie anymore.
:laugh: exactly what i was thinking.
What sounds more original - a creature created by an android via an alien technology VS a space bug
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 20, 2017, 01:27:26 AM
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Nov 19, 2017, 07:16:00 PM
Quote from: Master on Nov 15, 2017, 12:47:14 AM
To discover that David created those too? Nah thanks. TBH I don't want Scott anywhere near any Alien movie anymore.
:laugh: exactly what i was thinking.
What sounds more original - a creature created by an android via an alien technology VS a space bug
That's debatable. After all, the Engineers are extraterrestrial beings just because their homeworld is not Earth. But technically, they are not aliens at all.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/prometheus/bluray/prometheus-bluray-0462.jpg)
Unless their technology has been created by another civilization, but that is just fan fiction of course.
Robots & Aliens. My kind of movie.
Ok, but why do some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs for jacked up marines to shoot and yell "Let's Rock!!!!". :)
Has been in countless video games, comic books and movies.
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 21, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
Ok, but why do some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs for jacked up marines to shoot and yell "Let's Rock!!!!". :)
Has been in countless video games, comic books and movies.
Personally i prefer the first movie. Deadly, mysterious & disturbing. That's it.
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 21, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
Ok, but why do some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs for jacked up marines to shoot and yell "Let's Rock!!!!". :)
Has been in countless video games, comic books and movies.
I'm going to explain this situation for all you guys that think thats what those guys want. Its not the guns. It's not the Queen. It's not the Marines.
It's because it's a good movie. That's it.
People like Aliens, because it's good.
**slams book closed.
Quote from: Highland on Nov 21, 2017, 02:42:37 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 21, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
Ok, but why do some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs for jacked up marines to shoot and yell "Let's Rock!!!!". :)
Has been in countless video games, comic books and movies.
I'm going to explain this situation for all you guys that think thats what those guys want. Its not the guns. It's not the Queen. It's not the Marines.
It's because it's a good movie. That's it.
People like Aliens, because it's good.
**slams book closed.
Well said!
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 21, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs
They were never "simple space bugs" at least not in the films(not counting AvP:R)
Quote from: Highland on Nov 21, 2017, 02:42:37 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 21, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
Ok, but why do some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs for jacked up marines to shoot and yell "Let's Rock!!!!". :)
Has been in countless video games, comic books and movies.
I'm going to explain this situation for all you guys that think thats what those guys want. Its not the guns. It's not the Queen. It's not the Marines.
It's because it's a good movie. That's it.
People like Aliens, because it's good.
**slams book closed.
Spot on mate, spot on.
Quote from: Highland on Nov 21, 2017, 02:42:37 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 21, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
Ok, but why do some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs for jacked up marines to shoot and yell "Let's Rock!!!!". :)
Has been in countless video games, comic books and movies.
I'm going to explain this situation for all you guys that think thats what those guys want. Its not the guns. It's not the Queen. It's not the Marines.
It's because it's a good movie. That's it.
People like Aliens, because it's good.
**slams book closed.
Word.
(https://i.imgur.com/kUhVJJr.gif)
And I think that view of the Aliens being "simple space bugs" is completely overblown anyway.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Nov 19, 2017, 07:16:00 PM
Quote from: Master on Nov 15, 2017, 12:47:14 AM
To discover that David created those too? Nah thanks. TBH I don't want Scott anywhere near any Alien movie anymore.
:laugh: exactly what i was thinking.
Agreed.
I want to say that i agree with all the comments above regarding Aliens. It is a masterpiece in every way, directing, acting, atmosphere etc... Even though my personal taste make me prefer the first movie, Aliens is a perfect movie to this day.
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 21, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
Ok, but why do some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs for jacked up marines to shoot and yell "Let's Rock!!!!". :)
Has been in countless video games, comic books and movies.
I'm a fan of Aliens pretty much, its style, direction, Weavers acting, the characters ( not a single one I dislike, though my fondness of Hudson decreased a little, too OT ) excepy funnily enough the aliens themselves.
As a kid I prefered the bugs simply because by then it was 2004/2005 and was already exposed by the 'traditional' Xenomorph. Screamish, animalistic, not THAT hard to kill if you have a gun. In contrast 'Alien' was the first one I saw and found it... just a little boring.. f**king unnerving and unsettling.. but just a little rigid.
But after having played 'Isolation' back in 2014 I realized the Alien works much better as a slow, indestructible stalker with an intangible intelligence.
But that's just my 2 cents off course'
Quote from: Munkeywrench on Nov 21, 2017, 03:05:01 AM
Quote from: Highland on Nov 21, 2017, 02:42:37 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 21, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
Ok, but why do some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs for jacked up marines to shoot and yell "Let's Rock!!!!". :)
Has been in countless video games, comic books and movies.
I'm going to explain this situation for all you guys that think thats what those guys want. Its not the guns. It's not the Queen. It's not the Marines.
It's because it's a good movie. That's it.
People like Aliens, because it's good.
**slams book closed.
Well said!
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 21, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs
They were never "simple space bugs" at least not in the films(not counting AvP:R)
You've got to admit there's a pretty big difference between how they die in Aliens vs how shots ricochet off their skin in Covenant.
Yes, Aliens is a good movie, but it has some pretty bad parts. The whole Newt thing feels so hamfisted. Now Ripley is le mummy so that the soccer moms in the audience can identify with a character in the movie. Also, what's the deal with Burke randomly betraying everybody and getting killed right after. Did he think he could survive alone?
I also don't understand why they had an inexperienced commander lead the team on a mission that would potentially entail fighting against dangerous aliens.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Nov 21, 2017, 08:28:22 PM
Quote from: Munkeywrench on Nov 21, 2017, 03:05:01 AM
Quote from: Highland on Nov 21, 2017, 02:42:37 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 21, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
Ok, but why do some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs for jacked up marines to shoot and yell "Let's Rock!!!!". :)
Has been in countless video games, comic books and movies.
I'm going to explain this situation for all you guys that think thats what those guys want. Its not the guns. It's not the Queen. It's not the Marines.
It's because it's a good movie. That's it.
People like Aliens, because it's good.
**slams book closed.
Well said!
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 21, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs
They were never "simple space bugs" at least not in the films(not counting AvP:R)
You've got to admit there's a pretty big difference between how they die in Aliens vs how shots ricochet off their skin in Covenant.
Because they weren't using armor piercing rounds in Covenant like they were in Aliens. Remember Gorman says the bullets are "10mm explosive tip caseless, Standard light armor piercing rounds"
Quote from: Highland on Nov 21, 2017, 02:42:37 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 21, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
Ok, but why do some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs for jacked up marines to shoot and yell "Let's Rock!!!!". :)
Has been in countless video games, comic books and movies.
I'm going to explain this situation for all you guys that think thats what those guys want. Its not the guns. It's not the Queen. It's not the Marines.
It's because it's a good movie. That's it.
People like Aliens, because it's good.
**slams book closed.
I asked why do some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs not why so many people like Aliens. But thanks for answering for my question. :)
People like Alien, because it's good.
People like Alien 3, because it's good.
People like Alien Resurrection, because it's good.
People like AVP, because it's good.
People like AVPR............... make up your own opinion. :)
People like Prometheus, because it's good.
People like Alien Covenant, because it's good.
Book closed. Case shut and sealed.
:)
QuoteYou've got to admit there's a pretty big difference between how they die in Aliens vs how shots ricochet off their skin in Covenant.
You see blood spray when Danny hits it under the lifter. When do they ricochet?
Quote from: tleilaxu on Nov 21, 2017, 08:28:22 PM
I also don't understand why they had an inexperienced commander lead the team on a mission that would potentially entail fighting against dangerous aliens.
Speculation here, but it's possible that's the best Burke could come up with for his secret unauthorized mission. Not a stretch to imagine he did try to recruit a more experienced leader but they all turned him down for whatever reasons (already committed to other missions, their integrity draws the line on unauthorized missions, previous bad experience with Burke, etc.)
I wouldn't like Ridley to touch the Queen so as not to screw up the life cycle even more. Though I would like to see a Queen tie in to all of this and even a different version like a mutated pre-Queen of Daniels, I don't trust Ridley or Fox to not make things even worse when it comes to continuity. Eggmorphing is disturbing and not represented enough, so why not see that on the big screen?
I can imagine Fox now: Problems with Prometheus? We need aliens! Problem with Covenant? But it had aliens?! We need the Queen... :laugh:
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Nov 21, 2017, 10:50:52 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Nov 21, 2017, 08:28:22 PM
I also don't understand why they had an inexperienced commander lead the team on a mission that would potentially entail fighting against dangerous aliens.
Speculation here, but it's possible that's the best Burke could come up with for his secret unauthorized mission. Not a stretch to imagine he did try to recruit a more experienced leader but they all turned him down for whatever reasons (already committed to other missions, their integrity draws the line on unauthorized missions, previous bad experience with Burke, etc.)
Or he deliberately chose a bad commander he could manipulate.
It's pretty clear that Cameron through use of the story and dialog wants the Marines to expect that this is a walk in the park and that the company don't believe Ripley anyway. Hence why they send in the chump and not their best man.
I mean some people see a plot hole there for some reason, but it's clearly the point of the situation.
Conflict = drama.
Quote from: Highland on Nov 22, 2017, 12:52:58 AM
Or he deliberately chose a bad commander he could manipulate.
Certainly another possibility.
A gamble for Burke either way. Pick an experienced leader, but less cooperative to manipulation. Burke faces the risk that leader going against Burke's agenda...Or pick a compliant leader from the batch of inexperienced commanders, but risks the mission failing from incompetence.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Nov 21, 2017, 08:28:22 PM
Quote from: Munkeywrench on Nov 21, 2017, 03:05:01 AM
Quote from: Highland on Nov 21, 2017, 02:42:37 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 21, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
Ok, but why do some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs for jacked up marines to shoot and yell "Let's Rock!!!!". :)
Has been in countless video games, comic books and movies.
I'm going to explain this situation for all you guys that think thats what those guys want. Its not the guns. It's not the Queen. It's not the Marines.
It's because it's a good movie. That's it.
People like Aliens, because it's good.
**slams book closed.
Well said!
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 21, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs
They were never "simple space bugs" at least not in the films(not counting AvP:R)
You've got to admit there's a pretty big difference between how they die in Aliens vs how shots ricochet off their skin in Covenant.
Yes, Aliens is a good movie, but it has some pretty bad parts. The whole Newt thing feels so hamfisted. Now Ripley is le mummy so that the soccer moms in the audience can identify with a character in the movie. Also, what's the deal with Burke randomly betraying everybody and getting killed right after. Did he think he could survive alone?
I also don't understand why they had an inexperienced commander lead the team on a mission that would potentially entail fighting against dangerous aliens.
Burke doesn't randomly betray them either. Before the lights cut the last thing hicks says is "we waste him". He's in full get the hell out mode.
Quote from: SM on Nov 21, 2017, 10:25:04 PM
QuoteYou've got to admit there's a pretty big difference between how they die in Aliens vs how shots ricochet off their skin in Covenant.
You see blood spray when Danny hits it under the lifter. When do they ricochet?
You do see shots ricochet!
.. in
Aliens, when they use pistols.
The inexperienced commander, Burke betraying them etc is all by the numbers, simplistic story telling designed to create drama but Cameron makes it work and that's all that matters really.
The whole space bug thing used to bother me because I felt it diminished the impact of the original creature. It was a little disheartening for me to see the Alien bowing down to a bigger, badder version and find it was just a foot soldier. I got over it though.
I much prefer Alien but Aliens is a great movie too.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 22, 2017, 07:39:20 AM
Quote from: SM on Nov 21, 2017, 10:25:04 PM
QuoteYou've got to admit there's a pretty big difference between how they die in Aliens vs how shots ricochet off their skin in Covenant.
You see blood spray when Danny hits it under the lifter. When do they ricochet?
You do see shots ricochet!
.. in Aliens, when they use pistols.
Booyah.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 08:57:41 AM
The inexperienced commander, Burke betraying them etc is all by the numbers, simplistic story telling designed to create drama but Cameron makes it work and that's all that matters really.
I wouldn't say simplistic. It has a ring of authenticity to it, particularly with regards to Gorman.
Quote from: Rudiger on Nov 22, 2017, 10:26:09 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 08:57:41 AM
The inexperienced commander, Burke betraying them etc is all by the numbers, simplistic story telling designed to create drama but Cameron makes it work and that's all that matters really.
I wouldn't say simplistic. It has a ring of authenticity to it, particularly with regards to Gorman.
I just mean its a pretty tired movie trope to have an inexperienced guy in charge of the mission and the guy in the suit being nefarious.
Cameron makes it work though. These are the sort of story beats that can quite easily make you roll your eyes and they don't in the case of Aliens.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 10:47:02 AM
I just mean its a pretty tired movie trope to have an inexperienced guy in charge of the mission and the guy in the suit being nefarious.
He's a lieutenant. He's supposed to be inexperienced.
Who, if not your inexperienced officer, do you send to deal with a communication loss on a terraforming colony in the middle of nowhere?
Quote from: Rudiger on Nov 22, 2017, 10:51:50 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 10:47:02 AM
I just mean its a pretty tired movie trope to have an inexperienced guy in charge of the mission and the guy in the suit being nefarious.
He's a lieutenant. He's supposed to be inexperienced.
Why would being a lieutenant mean he has little to no combat drop experience?
I think Cameron sets things up really well though. It's not like Gorman suddenly just changes character, you've been given little nuggets previously and when the plot point hits it all makes sense, it fits. Even his ending has a nice finish.
Quote from: Highland on Nov 22, 2017, 11:14:15 AM
I think Cameron sets things up really well though. It's not like Gorman suddenly just changes character, you've been given little nuggets previously and when the plot point hits it all makes sense, it fits. Even his ending has a nice finish.
Yes he does. Cameron makes tired old cliches feel fresh. He used to anyway.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 11:13:11 AM
Why would being a lieutenant mean he has little to no combat drop experience?
Because Lieutenant is the lowest officer rank.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Nov 22, 2017, 11:19:26 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 11:13:11 AM
Why would being a lieutenant mean he has little to no combat drop experience?
Because Lieutenant is the lowest officer rank.
Still wouldn't necessarily mean he would lack combat experience but whatever, that was never the point I was making in the first place.
Yes, your point was that the inexperienced officer in charge is a cliche, and while it often is, in the case of Aliens it isn't. It's an accurate depiction of how a real organization (not just the military) handles things. The Hadley's Hope mission is a shit mission in the middle of nowhere, with the characters themselves assuming to be nothing more than a busted transmitter. Those are the exact types of missions you send your inexperienced officers to in order for them to gain experience.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Nov 22, 2017, 11:28:13 AM
Yes, your point was that the inexperienced officer in charge is a cliche, and while it often is, in the case of Aliens it isn't. It's an accurate depiction of how a real organization (not just the military) handles things. The Hadley's Hope mission is a shit mission in the middle of nowhere, with the characters themselves assuming to be nothing more than a busted transmitter. Those are the exact types of missions you send your inexperienced officers to in order for them to gain experience.
Its debatable as to whether an organisation would do that and the the last thing I would call Aliens is an accurate depiction of the military!
Its still a cliche, I don't believe for one minute Gorman was written as inexperienced to provide realism, he was written that way to fit the needs of the story and it works even though it had been done many times before. The same goes for Burke. Cliches aren't a problem if they work in the context of the story and in the case of Aliens, which contains a lot of them, it does. I always felt that was one of Cameron's greatest strengths in the early days.
Aliens is one of the purest thrill rides Cinema has ever seen, Its simplicity is key to that and I see it as a compliment not a criticism.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 11:52:58 AM
Its debatable as to whether an organisation would do that and the the last thing I would call Aliens is an accurate depiction of the military!
I didn't call Aliens an accurate depiction of the military either. I just called that particular situation of sending a rookie to do the shit job an accurate depiction of real life. My personal military experience of being sent to a similar mission with a rookie officer also supports my view on that particular scenario.
Quote
I don't believe for one minute Gorman was written as inexperienced to provide realism, he was written that way to fit the needs of the story and it works even though it had been done many times before.
It's both, really. He was written that way to fit the needs of the story, obviously, but his actions and motivations are grounded in reality. That's how good scripts are written, and what makes character actions believable. It makes total sense for the military to send a rookie officer to deal with a boring mission of addressing some colony's communication problems because anyone who has ever held a job in his life knows that you always send the newbie to do the 'hey, someone's gotta do it' stuff while the experienced people deal with the serious things.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 11:23:44 AM
Still wouldn't necessarily mean he would lack combat experience but whatever, that was never the point I was making in the first place.
Ripley: How many drops is this for you, Lieutenant?
Lieutenant Gorman: Thirty eight... simulated.
Private Vasquez: How many *combat* drops?
Lieutenant Gorman: Uh, two. Including this one.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Nov 22, 2017, 12:12:28 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 11:52:58 AM
Its debatable as to whether an organisation would do that and the the last thing I would call Aliens is an accurate depiction of the military!
I didn't call Aliens an accurate depiction of the military either. I just called that particular situation of sending a rookie to do the shit job an accurate depiction of real life. My personal military experience of being sent to a similar mission with a rookie officer also supports my view on that particular scenario.
Quote
I don't believe for one minute Gorman was written as inexperienced to provide realism, he was written that way to fit the needs of the story and it works even though it had been done many times before.
It's both, really. He was written that way to fit the needs of the story, obviously, but his actions and motivations are grounded in reality. That's how good scripts are written, and what makes character actions believable. It makes total sense for the military to send a rookie officer to deal with a boring mission of addressing some colony's communication problems because anyone who has ever held a job in his life knows that you always send the newbie to do the 'hey, someone's gotta do it' stuff while the experienced people deal with the serious things.
This is old ground we've already covered so Ill just agree to disagree.
Quote from: Rudiger on Nov 22, 2017, 12:15:19 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 11:23:44 AM
Still wouldn't necessarily mean he would lack combat experience but whatever, that was never the point I was making in the first place.
Ripley: How many drops is this for you, Lieutenant?
Lieutenant Gorman: Thirty eight... simulated.
Private Vasquez: How many *combat* drops?
Lieutenant Gorman: Uh, two. Including this one.
I know the dialogue, I only watched it last Saturday night.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Nov 22, 2017, 11:19:26 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 11:13:11 AM
Why would being a lieutenant mean he has little to no combat drop experience?
Because Lieutenant is the lowest officer rank.
I believe Sergeant is lower... Isn't it ?
Sergeant isn't an officer's rank.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 11:13:11 AM
Quote from: Rudiger on Nov 22, 2017, 10:51:50 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 10:47:02 AM
I just mean its a pretty tired movie trope to have an inexperienced guy in charge of the mission and the guy in the suit being nefarious.
He's a lieutenant. He's supposed to be inexperienced.
Why would being a lieutenant mean he has little to no combat drop experience?
There's no correlation between between rank and experience. Their previous Lt might've had 20 combat drops if there was some campaign going on, or very few if it was relatively peaceful.
Quote from: SM on Nov 22, 2017, 07:23:45 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 11:13:11 AM
Quote from: Rudiger on Nov 22, 2017, 10:51:50 AM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 10:47:02 AM
I just mean its a pretty tired movie trope to have an inexperienced guy in charge of the mission and the guy in the suit being nefarious.
He's a lieutenant. He's supposed to be inexperienced.
Why would being a lieutenant mean he has little to no combat drop experience?
There's no correlation between between rank and experience. Their previous Lt might've had 20 combat drops if there was some campaign going on, or very few if it was relatively peaceful.
Exactly
Quote from: SM on Nov 21, 2017, 10:25:04 PM
QuoteYou've got to admit there's a pretty big difference between how they die in Aliens vs how shots ricochet off their skin in Covenant.
.
You see blood spray when Danny hits it under the lifter. When do they ricochet?
Aight you got me there, they do bleed while shrugging off rifle shots.
Quote from: Highland on Nov 22, 2017, 12:52:58 AM
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Nov 21, 2017, 10:50:52 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Nov 21, 2017, 08:28:22 PM
I also don't understand why they had an inexperienced commander lead the team on a mission that would potentially entail fighting against dangerous aliens.
Speculation here, but it's possible that's the best Burke could come up with for his secret unauthorized mission. Not a stretch to imagine he did try to recruit a more experienced leader but they all turned him down for whatever reasons (already committed to other missions, their integrity draws the line on unauthorized missions, previous bad experience with Burke, etc.)
Or he deliberately chose a bad commander he could manipulate.
It's pretty clear that Cameron through use of the story and dialog wants the Marines to expect that this is a walk in the park and that the company don't believe Ripley anyway. Hence why they send in the chump and not their best man.
I mean some people see a plot hole there for some reason, but it's clearly the point of the situation.
Not really as much a plot-hole as a stupid plot element, which gets masked by the general good quality of Aliens. Also, why couldn't Burke and Weyland Yutani just pay for some elite military group to retrieve the Xenos?
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Nov 22, 2017, 11:16:45 AM
Quote from: Highland on Nov 22, 2017, 11:14:15 AM
I think Cameron sets things up really well though. It's not like Gorman suddenly just changes character, you've been given little nuggets previously and when the plot point hits it all makes sense, it fits. Even his ending has a nice finish.
Yes he does. Cameron makes tired old cliches feel fresh. He used to anyway.
I mostly agree (about the cliches in Aliens specifically, not other films like Avatar which just suck). The Ripley-Newt dynamic has really always annoyed me though.
Why?
QuoteAlso, why couldn't Burke and Weyland Yutani just pay for some elite military group to retrieve the Xenos?
"So now, if I went and made a major security situation out of it, everybody steps in. Administration steps in and there's no exclusive rights for anybody. Nobody wins."
QuoteAight you got me there, they do bleed while shrugging off rifle shots.
It runs away. Hardly "shrugging off".
Quote from: Highland on Nov 21, 2017, 02:42:37 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Nov 21, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
Ok, but why do some fans want the aliens to be simple space bugs for jacked up marines to shoot and yell "Let's Rock!!!!". :)
Has been in countless video games, comic books and movies.
I'm going to explain this situation for all you guys that think thats what those guys want. Its not the guns. It's not the Queen. It's not the Marines.
It's because it's a good movie. That's it.
People like Aliens, because it's good.
**slams book closed.
An action movie with xenos vs. the military will eventually get made. I just want it to be 1) a hard R, 2) not retcon Alien 3, and 3) no Sigourney Weaver.
The Lt. probably came straight from a military academy or reserve training. And the company probably selected an inexperienced officer so that there would be a greater chance for the military personnel to cooperate with Burke and probably even any company goals (i.e., to capture any alien specimens alive).
The Company didn't send the marines, it was a joint Company/ECA venture and neither of those groups were out to get the Alien in the film (Burke wanted it, and had to come up with a plan to avoid one half of the joint venture finding out about his plan and torpedoing it).
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Nov 21, 2017, 10:50:52 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Nov 21, 2017, 08:28:22 PM
I also don't understand why they had an inexperienced commander lead the team on a mission that would potentially entail fighting against dangerous aliens.
Speculation here, but it's possible that's the best Burke could come up with for his secret unauthorized mission. Not a stretch to imagine he did try to recruit a more experienced leader but they all turned him down for whatever reasons (already committed to other missions, their integrity draws the line on unauthorized missions, previous bad experience with Burke, etc.)
I thought the opposite: that Burke deliberately wanted a green and pliable newbie in charge of the mission so he could leverage as much of his corporate influence as possible if and when he needed cooperation to secure specimens.
Why do people think Burke had power to do shit all, exactly? ??? If he had any sort of authority he wouldn't need to try smuggling Aliens like he does.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 23, 2017, 12:10:47 PM
The Company didn't send the marines, it was a joint Company/ECA venture and neither of those groups were out to get the Alien in the film (Burke wanted it, and had to come up with a plan to avoid one half of the joint venture finding out about his plan and torpedoing it).
Even accepting all that it begs the question of how/why they managed to establish a colony on that particular moon despite it literally having an alien space-craft transmitting a signal.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Nov 23, 2017, 01:34:16 PM
Even accepting all that it begs the question of how/why they managed to establish a colony on that particular moon despite it literally having an alien space-craft transmitting a signal.
Always assumed that the derelict ceased transmitting at some point. There's, what, 60 years between the Alien and Aliens?
Quote from: Rudiger on Nov 23, 2017, 01:48:28 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Nov 23, 2017, 01:34:16 PM
Even accepting all that it begs the question of how/why they managed to establish a colony on that particular moon despite it literally having an alien space-craft transmitting a signal.
Always assumed that the derelict ceased transmitting at some point. There's, what, 60 years between the Alien and Aliens?
57
Why would the derelict stop transmitting if it had been there (seemingly, might be retconned in Awakening) for potentially thousands of years?
Unless Weyland-Yutani had the power to keep it a secret, but then if they had that power it doesn't match up with the rest.
The derelict signal is a plot hole. The 57 years between Alien and Aliens shouldn't be a factor because:
1. Alien already implied that the derelict was ancient via the fossilized space jockey, so a few dozen years here or there shouldn't make a difference.
2. The colony was already 20 years old during the events of Aliens, so it's more like 37 years. Take into account the need to survey the planet first (LV-426 was an unknown planet during the events of Alien), plan the colony construction, recruit the personnel to travel there and the actual 10 month travel time, and you're realistically looking at 30 years or less. All of that is under the assumption that the colony planning started the second the planet was surveyed. The more realistic scenario was that it took several years before anyone even had a desire to do something with LV-426.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Nov 23, 2017, 01:53:23 PM
Why would the derelict stop transmitting if it had been there (seemingly, might be retconned in Awakening) for potentially thousands of years?
Maybe alien batteries don't last forever?
Quote from: tleilaxu on Nov 23, 2017, 01:53:23 PM
Quote from: Rudiger on Nov 23, 2017, 01:48:28 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Nov 23, 2017, 01:34:16 PM
Even accepting all that it begs the question of how/why they managed to establish a colony on that particular moon despite it literally having an alien space-craft transmitting a signal.
Always assumed that the derelict ceased transmitting at some point. There's, what, 60 years between the Alien and Aliens?
57
Why would the derelict stop transmitting if it had been there (seemingly, might be retconned in Awakening) for potentially thousands of years?
Unless Weyland-Yutani had the power to keep it a secret, but then if they had that power it doesn't match up with the rest.
Yeah, Cameron maybe forgot about that initially, but he does state in an interview that the transmitter stopped responding when some volcanic or seismic activity ripped the Derelict's arm off.
A nice bonus explanation comes from the game Alien Isolation where the Marlow crew deactivated the signal manually from inside the Derelict, after they found the Nostromo's black-box.
I think both of these explanations (cop outs) are good enough.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Nov 23, 2017, 01:34:16 PM
Quote from: SiL on Nov 23, 2017, 12:10:47 PM
The Company didn't send the marines, it was a joint Company/ECA venture and neither of those groups were out to get the Alien in the film (Burke wanted it, and had to come up with a plan to avoid one half of the joint venture finding out about his plan and torpedoing it).
Even accepting all that it begs the question of how/why they managed to establish a colony on that particular moon despite it literally having an alien space-craft transmitting a signal.
Derelict is damaged by a lava flow when the Jordens find it. Signal cut off.
Later retconned to have Captain Marlow of the Anesidora turn it off in 2137.
"When the Jorden family, including young Newt, reach the coordinates, they discover the derelict ship. Since we and the Nostromo crew last saw it, it has been damaged by volcanic activity, a lava flow having crushed it against a crock outcropping and ripped open its hull. Aside from considerations of visual interest, this serves as a justification for the acoustic beacon being non-operational. "
James Cameron - Starlog 1986
Why did the lava damage one but not the Prometheus?
The Prometheus hit it full force and no visible damage.
I can buy the fact the lava had a lot longer to do damage.
If it's a joint venture, then it's likely the company requested for armed escort just to be sure, and probably because some company members put one and one together (i.e., Ripley's story, which they found fantastic, and the colony going silent). It also helps that it is implied in the first movie that it is willing to profit from any anomalies, even if it means making ship crews expendable. I'm not sure if that also means sacrificing large amounts of money invested in minerals if that happens, but they probably assumed that their androids would be able to secure anything found plus pilot vessels carrying cargo to their destination.
Burke put one and one together and thought he had to illegally smuggle Aliens. WY had no real control of that mission. They even explicitly say that the military had jurisdiction, not Burke, hence ignoring him when he says he can't surprise the marines to nuke the colony.
But the investigation involved a joint venture with the company, and the colony did involve company personnel and property.
It's possible that the marines naturally overrode Burke as human lives were at stake, but that doesn't mean that the company was not interested in profiting from any life forms discovered, especially given its directive in the first film and the fact that face huggers (including at least one kept alive) were kept for further analysis in the colony lab.
Yes, it does, because the company didn't know.
Ripley: I just checked the colony log. Dated 0-6-1-2-7-9, signed Burke, Carter J. You sent them out there and you didn't even warn them. Why didn't you warn them, Burke?
Burke: Okay, look. What if that ship didn't even exist, huh? Did you ever think about that? I didn't know! So now, if I went in and made a major security issue out of it, everybody steps in. Administration steps in, and there are no exclusive rights for anybody; nobody wins. So I made a decision and it was... wrong. It was a bad call, Ripley. It was a bad call.
And while it's just me speculating, I think It's logical to assume that even the line about "losing contact with the colony" is false. Burke was in contact with the colony, and he probably completely disregarded their distress calls up until there wasn't anyone left because it is easier to deal with a single marine squad led by a rookie officer responding to a mere loss of communication, than it is to deal with whatever the military would send in order to defend a colony being attacked by actual space aliens.
There really were no communications - the connection between the colony and the transmitter was bust, hence Bishop needing to go outside to pilot the drop ship.
Yeah Gorman confirmed there was still no contact with the colony when they arrived.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 24, 2017, 09:24:00 PM
There really were no communications - the connection between the colony and the transmitter was bust, hence Bishop needing to go outside to pilot the drop ship.
Yeah, that's a good point. Forgot about that.
From what I remember, Ripley was referring to a colony log where Burke ordered colonists to explore the derelict. And if Bishop is right in reporting that the wiring leading to the transmitter was damaged due to fighting, then it's possible that the colony transmitted reports at least on the face huggers, etc. When Ripley argued that Burke was hiding the information, it is assumed that he was referring to hiding those reports from the Administration, or ECA. I find it hard to believe that the company had no knowledge of those reports, unless Burke had managed to secure all company communication facilities and ensure that only he would receive all transmissions from the company.
The implication is that not only Burke but the company had received information about at least the face huggers, and if they had managed to connect that with Ripley's report, then one can argue that they were working closely with Burke. If any, it was probably ECA and the marines that did not know what was going on, unless ECA considered the possibility that Ripley's report is true.
That's not the implication at all.
Burke makes it clear he was acting alone to avoid other people taking a slice of his claim.
The information Ripley accused him of wanting to hide is her and Newt being impregnated if his plan had worked. And the way he wanted to hide that information was murdering people to prevent them answering questions.
On one side of the coin, it's logical to think they transmitted reports during the early stage of the invasion at the very least.
On the other side of the coin, maybe not, if you add in type of character who believes in containing an issue internally to avoid reporting it to his superiors, bringing his management skills into question. The latter is endorsed with the Operations Manager, Simpson, who seemed cynical about reporting anything to "some honcho in a cushy office on Earth."
Whether he was the head of the entire colony, I don't know. So from the film, there's nothing to indicate Simpson had the power to control what transmissions are sent.
From what I remember, Ripley was referring to Burke ordering colonists to go to the derelict, presumably after hearing Ripley's story after the meeting but hiding all of the other information given by Ripley from them. I find it highly improbable that out of all of the participants in that meeting, only Burke bothered to ask the colonists to investigate the matter further, especially given the fact that the company has always been interested in profiting from such findings.
Quote from: monkeylove on Nov 26, 2017, 05:26:23 AM
From what I remember, Ripley was referring to Burke ordering colonists to go to the derelict, presumably after hearing Ripley's story after the meeting but hiding all of the other information given by Ripley from them. I find it highly improbable that out of all of the participants in that meeting, only Burke bothered to ask the colonists to investigate the matter further, especially given the fact that the company has always been interested in profiting from such findings.
I dunno, Burke was the only person in that room who spoke with her for weeks, saw how genuinely traumatized she really was by the whole unseen event. Those people at the board room were cynical to the point of both ignorance and arrogance who wanted to just get it over it.
No one else checked out the story because there had been colonists there for over 20 years and they thought Ripley was a nut. Hence the suspension of her license and regular pysch evaluations.
Makes me wonder what happened to the "hardware" linking the transmitter to the main complex.
It was damaged.
Presumably by the Aliens or just through the fighting.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Nov 27, 2017, 09:58:44 AM
Presumably by the Aliens or just through the fighting.
What do you mean, they cut the hardware linking the transmitter to the main complex? How could they cut the hardware, man?! They're animals! . . . . ;)
Quote from: SM on Nov 27, 2017, 06:01:08 AM
No one else checked out the story because there had been colonists there for over 20 years and they thought Ripley was a nut. Hence the suspension of her license and regular pysch evaluations.
So the people behind the special order in Alien just figured "Oh I guess there was nothing after all, also Ripley must be nuts since she blew up the Nostromo for no reason." ? These things don't quite add up.
It's entirely likely the person/ people behind the special order were dead. If not and they weren't retired - they're unlikely to want to make a 'major security situation out of it'.
Adds up pretty well as far as I can see.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Nov 28, 2017, 12:03:55 AM
Quote from: SM on Nov 27, 2017, 06:01:08 AM
No one else checked out the story because there had been colonists there for over 20 years and they thought Ripley was a nut. Hence the suspension of her license and regular pysch evaluations.
So the people behind the special order in Alien just figured "Oh I guess there was nothing after all, also Ripley must be nuts since she blew up the Nostromo for no reason." ? These things don't quite add up.
I'll actually pay the first sentence. It's one of my slight gripes with the company and the series. They just seem to be the shadowy bad guy floating around. Scott's still got the chance to salavage something out of the prequels though.
The scary thing about the Company wasn't that they were evil, it's that they didn't care - which is much more realistic. They were a large company, sure, but they weren't all powerful and there were still clearly laws.
Once the Nostromo disappeared they likely covered their tracks to avoid being liable - again, something a company would actually do.
The uber powerful moustache twirling villain version of the Company was an EU thing.
Yep.
People still want to believe they were orchestrating these huge complex conspiracies - when in reality they were just opportunists.
Quote from: Berend on Nov 27, 2017, 05:25:42 AM
I dunno, Burke was the only person in that room who spoke with her for weeks, saw how genuinely traumatized she really was by the whole unseen event. Those people at the board room were cynical to the point of both ignorance and arrogance who wanted to just get it over it.
Everything that the company needed it got from the meeting. The only thing it needed to do was use common sense and ask someone from the colony to investigate the site, something expected from organizations that went through the shuttle "centimeter by centimeter" and that have "surveyed over three hundred worlds". Given that, what grounds would such officials have for getting things over with when the very nature of their organization is based on the drive for profit and acquiring "exclusive rights" on anything discovered?
QuoteThe only thing it needed to do was use common sense and ask someone from the colony to investigate the site
Burke did.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 28, 2017, 12:41:11 AM
The scary thing about the Company wasn't that they were evil, it's that they didn't care - which is much more realistic. They were a large company, sure, but they weren't all powerful and there were still clearly laws.
Once the Nostromo disappeared they likely covered their tracks to avoid being liable - again, something a company would actually do.
The uber powerful moustache twirling villain version of the Company was an EU thing.
The question isn't whether or not they were evil but whether or not they were profit-driven. The latter is clear, and given hundreds of worlds surveyed and a meticulous assessment of Ripley's report at Gateway Station, it would have been logical for them to assign Burke to handle the matter.
Burke handled it of his own volition.
You can't have it both ways though, they either care or don't care. By the time Alien 3 swings around the company is desperate to get their hands on this thing.
I guess the Alien universe is probably too small for it to really make sense. Do people stumble upon Alien derilict ships and life forms like fish in the sea or is this a truly one of world changing event? It seems like the first one.
I guess the Marines imply perhaps this isn't a unique situation, so there's that.
QuoteYou can't have it both ways though, they either care or don't care. By the time Alien 3 swings around the company is desperate to get their hands on this thing.
"It all goes into the computer and sent back to Network."
It's not about them not caring about the Alien - before Alien 3 "they" ie. more than Burke - didn't
know.
When SiL talks about not caring, he's not talking about the Alien.
Right. The Company doesn't care about the welfare of its employees. The example the producers drew from was the Exxon company. That's not too say they would try to harm their employees, just that they weren't going to shed tears if they did.
When the Nostromo disappeared, SO-937 would have left a paper trail right to them. So they scrapped any information about it and walked away whistling tunelessly hoping nobody would notice.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 28, 2017, 01:33:36 AM
Right. The Company doesn't care about the welfare of its employees. The example the producers drew from was the Exxon company. That's not too say they would try to harm their employees, just that they weren't going to shed tears if they did.
When the Nostromo disappeared, SO-937 would have left a paper trail right to them. So they scrapped any information about it and walked away whistling tunelessly hoping nobody would notice.
And they didn't consider sending private company ships to the same world where they specifically instructed Ash to retrieve the Alien?
Clearly not.
They ordered Ash to bring back a specimen of a lifeform.
They didn't know it was a capital A Alien.
Quote from: SM on Nov 28, 2017, 01:19:04 AM
QuoteYou can't have it both ways though, they either care or don't care. By the time Alien 3 swings around the company is desperate to get their hands on this thing.
"It all goes into the computer and sent back to Network."
It's not about them not caring about the Alien - before Alien 3 "they" ie. more than Burke - didn't know.
When SiL talks about not caring, he's not talking about the Alien.
But in each of the movies it's implied they do know, at least the characters that are savvy to what's going on. I get what you guys are saying, I totally understand the whole faceless company angle.
How is it implied they know?
Why would the Company be so sloppy in trying to obtain specimens if they know?
Dunno. They know something able to kill 7-8 humans is out there, maybe even something that is capable of destroying a whole ship (intelligent being?), but they are not able to launch some kind of (covert) mission (like they basically did before with the whole Ash thing) to investigate further, say 3-4 years after the incident?
The ship was destroyed - how do they know?
The ship was destroyed after the crew picked up some kind of organism and they are like "prob coincidence, lets move on"?
The ship was destroyed because the Company ordered them to pick up a potentially hostile organism.
I'm sure they'd like to explain that to authorities.
Well i dont remember Aliens stating there being some kind of huge investigation after the incident, and even if, they seemed to have it under control.
So why not try something again after a couple of months/years, hell use another refinery ship on the exact same route (or the super obvious: send your own private team to investigate what happened and report back to whomever, but prob leave out the part where you found an alien ship on that planet nearby). Its not like there was no economical potential (deadly lifeform, intelligent super virus).
With much less knowledge they launched the whole Ash charade.
And them being afraid to get punished for anything? They sent (uncoded?) "crew expandable" messages through space, im sure they are not that afraid of any authorities. Space is huge (and no one hears you getting your hands on some kind of biological super weapon).
They certainly seemed to be back on track in A3/A4.
Everything you're saying is speculating about complex conspiracies which aren't substantiated by what we're presented in the films.
Quote from: SM on Nov 28, 2017, 02:25:59 AM
How is it implied they know?
Why would the Company be so sloppy in trying to obtain specimens if they know?
Burke wants it for the Bio weapons division. The next sentence is kind of my point. They are sloppy in trying to get it.
QuoteEverything you're saying is speculating about complex conspiracies which aren't substantiated by what we're presented in the films.
Here (Alien 1) is a company trying to get its hands on a potential biological weapon that is then likely linked to the destruction of a whole spaceship and all of a sudden they are not interested any longer and/or forget such a thing existed in the first place (Alien 2).
Looks pretty simple to me?
And with complex conspiracies you mean "sending a private investigation squad"? Rerouting a refinery ship and replacing the science officer with an android to then somehow smuggle a completely unknown organism back to earth (talking about the company giving a damn about authorities :D) i find a bit more complex.
Im quite sure this company is able to come up with something to investigate further. They didnt and this doesnt make much sense in the light of their previously demonstrated effort when they didnt know what this organism might be capable of and still decided its worth the risk to smuggle that thing back to earth and even hazard the consequences of the potential deaths of several/all crew members (heres a company that definitely seems to fear authorities heavily).
Quote from: Highland on Nov 28, 2017, 03:57:36 AM
Quote from: SM on Nov 28, 2017, 02:25:59 AM
How is it implied they know?
Why would the Company be so sloppy in trying to obtain specimens if they know?
Burke wants it for the Bio weapons division. The next sentence is kind of my point. They are sloppy in trying to get it.
But Alien 3 shows us that when they do know about it - they send a specialised mission.
QuoteHere (Alien 1) is a company trying to get its hands on a potential biological weapon that is then likely linked to the destruction of a whole spaceship and all of a sudden they are not interested any longer and/or forget such a thing existed in the first place.
They know about a transmission warning others to stay away from a dangerous lifeform. That's as much as we know. You're making a leap that they had all the details on the Alien, which isn't supported. As I said above, if they did have all the details they'd send in experts, not truck drivers.
QuoteThey know about a transmission warning others to stay away from a dangerous lifeform. That's as much as we know. You're making a leap that they had all the details on the Alien, which isn't supported. As I said above, if they did have all the details they'd send in experts, not truck drivers.
We actually dont have any dissens on this.
My point is: Why didnt they send in experts
after that "organism" is heavily linked to the destruction of the whole ship. Cause thats what
Aliens is presenting us with. Nobody gave a damn. And this company, that is still around, now building better worlds, that was previously interested enough to pull that whole Ash stunt suddenly isnt interested any longer? Why? They joined some kind of anti-biological-weaponry convention the day after the Nostromo was blown to pieces likely caused by some kind of high value aggressive organism?
All your questions have been previously addressed in this thread. You can take them or leave them. I'm guessing the latter.
They mightve even been addressed (though i dont see it). Doesnt mean they are answered. Not even remotely.
Look harder.
Or not. Up to you.
Naaa, im quite sure a definite answer i would have missed not. ;)
I guess im going with my own anti-biological-weaponry convention fanfic then. It seems to be the most fun at least.
How could they send a specialist team? The first people they sent disappeared without a trace. They had exactly zero additional information outside of 'Whatever it was resulted in millions of dollars of loss for the company'.
With nothing substantial to go on, sending a team out for the sake of it could only look like an incredibly expensive risk with zero guarantees of return.
Space isn't an unregulated mess in the films. There are governing bodies, shipping routes, quarantine procedures, laws. After the Nostromo disappeared they likely covered their tracks to save their asses and decided it probably wasn't worth risking future vessels on a chance.
Yep.
The simplest explanation which has been made time and time again.
Quote from: SM on Nov 27, 2017, 09:29:32 AM
It was damaged.
Well, yeah. I'm just speculating on the curiosity of how it was damaged. There are a number of options that come to mind. Ripley remarks that the "structure seems intact" so it seems unlikely it was an explosive of anything. A firefight of some sort is a possibility, but what if we're dealing with a The Thing scenario? Someone crunches the numbers decides to cut the lines.
I'm just saying, I find it an interesting part of the situation at the colony, and it would seem to have had to happen very quickly after things went bad, otherwise I can only surmise a general S.O.S. would have been transmitted by the colony.
Quote from: SM on Nov 28, 2017, 05:45:22 AM
Yep.
The simplest explanation which has been made time and time again.
And one I have never understood the resistance to. People just love themselves some convoluted conspiracies. Personally, they give me a headache. I have always preferred the idea that the whole thing was dead and buried until Ripley showed up and it was just Burke being a greedy pile of shit. The comics and novels take it wayyyyy off the rails.
QuoteHow could they send a specialist team? The first people they sent disappeared without a trace.
The first people they sent were truck drivers. Thats like losing your first pawn at a chess game and surrendering instantly.
Quotesending a team out for the sake of it could only look like an incredibly expensive risk with zero guarantees of return.
All other considerations secondaryThey are an insterstellar company, its what they do. The Nostromo was one truck in their garage and that should keep them from getting the exclusive rights on this worlds potential A.bomb? Yea right. They are more like: "Next wave please --"
What wouldve happened if say in A3 that special team wouldve been crushed to pieces? You think they be like: "Uh ok now this thing is kinda too dangerous, lets try that "Building Better Worlds" stuff again..
QuoteSpace isn't an unregulated mess in the films.
Their original plan seemed to be to smuggle that thing directly back to
earth, not some remote outpost, directly back to earth. They seemed to be quite certain there wont be any kind of substantial interference on their way, quarantine procedures didnt seem to itch them one bit.
I dont know, maybe we just got different vibes as how this company is presented in the first film.
I fully expected them to go all in after they heard of the destruction of the Nostromo just like they did in A3. But Cameron says "no, nothing happened". Thats fine, i dont have to like it though, let alone finding it very plausible.
In A3 they by the way know this kind of thing seem to be able to wreck a whole Marine squad and survive even nukes. In fact the more danger the Alien gets, the more they want it and thats the only truly realistic angle in my eyes. I dont know where this film series could give you the impression this mega company lacks the Will to Power outside of Camerons take. Theyd stop at nothing if they see the slightest chance to get their hands on some uberpowerful weapon.
QuoteWell, yeah. I'm just speculating on the curiosity of how it was damaged. There are a number of options that come to mind. Ripley remarks that the "structure seems intact" so it seems unlikely it was an explosive of anything. A firefight of some sort is a possibility, but what if we're dealing with a The Thing scenario? Someone crunches the numbers decides to cut the lines.
If I were to guess I'd say acid damage - like the sort we saw with Hudson and Vasquez. The tractors and stuff near the north lock were supposed to have the controls ripped out as if by a crowbar or axe, but the shots were cut. So deliberate sabotage of the comms shouldn't be ruled out. Although if they were just cut you'd think Bishop maybe able to repair it so the damage must've been substantial.
Quote from: kwisatz on Nov 28, 2017, 06:25:11 AM
The first people they sent were truck drivers. Thats like losing your first pawn at a chess game and surrendering instantly.
Why did you not quote the part that explained the dilemma? How can you spend a specialist team to retrieve something you have no real information on? It wouldn't be a specialist team. It would be an equally unprepared group.
Quote
All other considerations secondary
In the context of the Nostromo special order. Not in a general context.
QuoteThey are an insterstellar company, its what they do. The Nostromo was one truck in their garage and that should keep them from getting the exclusive rights on this worlds potential A.bomb? Yea right. They are more like: "Next wave please --"
Or it was a space flu. Or the Nostromo was captured by pirates. Or the ship was destroyed in a totally unrelated incident. They had literally no way of knowing.
[quoteTheir original plan seemed to be to smuggle that thing directly back to
earth, not some remote outpost, directly back to earth. They seemed to be quite certain there wont be any kind of substantial interference on their way, quarantine procedures didnt seem to itch them one bit.[/quote]
Nothing said anything about smuggling. If they found something and brought it back the ship would be quarantined - they say this in the film - but the Company would still have rights to the organism.
1. Nobody is being sent anywhere in Alien by the company. The premise of the film is that the Nostromo picks up the derelict's signal on its way home, and after a long debate, the crew decides to investigate due to a clause in their contracts about investigating possible lifeforms. If the company knew anything about an alien on an uncharted planet, they wouldn't have sent truck drivers there. Nobody intentionally sends truck drivers to investigate aliens.
2. Me speculating, but Special Order 937 seems to be just a specific protocol activated in the instance of finding an alien - not THE alien. The Nostromo has no contact with the company throughout the whole film. The crew's only contact with anything company related is with Mother, and Mother had to have been programmed in advance. The "evilness" of the company isn't due to how far they'd go to obtain the alien - it's due to how little they care about their own employees, being willing to treat them as expendable without even knowing what they found.
3. Ash replacing the previous Science Officer seems to genuinely be a new policy of having a synthetic in space flights (which is established to have become common practice in Aliens). This is due to the fact that nobody knows about LV-426 or the alien when the switch is made. The signal is discovered on their journey. It makes no sense for the company to plant an android on board specifically for the retrieval of the alien before anyone even knows if and where it exists, and it makes even less sense to send it among truck drivers and not, like, a ship full of androids, or generally people with some sort of knowledge and expertise in the matter, with the specific mission of retrieving the alien.
With that in mind, it makes perfect sense that when Ripley returns to Earth after 57 years, she is being treated like a nut. The company truly didn't know about the alien yet. Which is why Hadley's Hope is established there in the first place and is allowed to go on for 20 years without going alien hunting.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Nov 28, 2017, 11:35:46 AM
1. Nobody is being sent anywhere in Alien by the company. The premise of the film is that the Nostromo picks up the derelict's signal on its way home, and after a long debate, the crew decides to investigate due to a clause in their contracts about investigating possible lifeforms. If the company knew anything about an alien on an uncharted planet, they wouldn't have sent truck drivers there. Nobody intentionally sends truck drivers to investigate aliens.
The ship was rerouted and Ash was placed onboard as a plant. This was established in the film. The crew were obligated to investigate, but they only intercepted the transmission because the company sent them off course.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 28, 2017, 02:10:21 PM
The ship was rerouted and Ash was placed onboard as a plant. This was established in the film. The crew were obligated to investigate, but they only intercepted the transmission because the company sent them off course.
The ship was rerouted by Mother during their flight home because Mother intercepted the derelict signal. It is explicitly stated to be the result of programming. That's also why when the crew wakes up from hypersleep, they literally wonder where is Earth.
QuoteWhy did you not quote the part that explained the dilemma? How can you spend a specialist team to retrieve something you have no real information on? It wouldn't be a specialist team. It would be an equally unprepared group.
Thats the basic dilemma/premise of prob every second scfi movie there is. Your about to explore infinite space, of course you cant be prepared for everything. That doesnt mean you can try your best. I mean do you watch
Star Trek or
2001 and think all the time: "Man all of this is just stupid, they are trying to explore the unknown without any clue as to what expect. They shouldve stayed home in the first place"
Its just the thing about exploring/science in general. You dont know every time what to expect, but there are people who are likely better prepared for certain situations than others. Thats the people you send, although you have no guarentee theyll succeed. Still they are "specialists" in their area of expertise. The more specialists you send the more ground you have covered.
QuoteIn the context of the Nostromo special order. Not in a general context.
The Nostromos special order gives you a clue as to what this company is willling to undertake if they think something is worth it. Its only logical to assume they are likely capable of worse stuff. Ten ships like the Nostromo are peanuts compared to having access to a potential super weapon.
QuoteOr it was a space flu. Or the Nostromo was captured by pirates. Or the ship was destroyed in a totally unrelated incident. They had literally no way of knowing.
Again when they knew even less, they send Ash and (in your eyes) a very expansive ship from their fleet. They took the risk to implement a Special Order on board that could likely lead to the demise of their company if anyone important found out about it. Why would they suddenly stop when something unusual actually happens aka the actual destruction of the Nostromo?
QuoteNothing said anything about smuggling. If they found something and brought it back the ship would be quarantined - they say this in the film - but the Company would still have rights to the organism.
If on board of a private company ship a new lifeform is found by the government with an android sitting on 4-5 shattered corpses and a Special Order saying "Crew expendable" and "bring the shit right back to earth" they be like: "Well done folks, keep the thing!"? Nah...
@Paranoid Android:
Im not sure i fully get what your saying. You think there had been a Special Order 937 on basically every ship the company owned? Wouldnt that be like, risky? I mean word gets around theres this company that sends you off track at the slightest hint there might be something worth exploring and if you actually find something your contractually bound to confrontate it and bring it home with your life worth nothing in the equation. Not mentioning the risk of getting caught by anyauthorities with this kind of "company policy". I mean every crew member had access to Mother, they didnt even try to hide it and i think thats because the order only recently came on board with Ash (though i know thats just assumption on my part here).
And keep in mind that Ash was substituted in the middle of Nostromos mission on some remote planet in the middle of nowhere. That always gave me the vibe that all this was supposed to be deliberate actions on the companys side.
Anyway guys were prob derailing this thread heavily. Maybe we shoud open up a new thread in the Alien film section. Something like "What did the company knew before and shortly after the Nostromo incident in the light of the first three films or something?" I dunno id definitely be interested obviously. --
Quote from: kwisatz on Nov 28, 2017, 03:12:09 PM
@Paranoid Android:
Im not sure i fully get what your saying. You think there had been a Special Order 937 on basically every ship the company owned? Wouldnt that be like, risky? I mean word gets around theres this company that sends you off track at the slightest hint there might be something worth exploring and if you actually find something your contractually bound to confrontate it and bring it home with your life worth nothing in the equation. I mean every crew member had access to Mother, they didnt even try to hide it and i think thats because the order came on board with Ash (though i know thats just assumption on my part here).
Special Order 937 was Science Officer's eyes only. Other members had no access to it, which was something the film made a point out of. If you're starting to replace the Science Officers on all your ships with company owned androids, it really isn't that risky. Especially considering the small probability of it ever being used.
Also, the only people shown to have access to Mother in the film are the Captain and Science Officer. Not the whole crew. Ripley only gains access to it when Dallas and Kane are dead, making her active Captain.
In this case the captain wouldve been enough though to blow off the whole thing. Or what do you think wouldve been Dallas' reaction if he wouldve found out about this order before they went down on the planet?
Anyway it then only takes one little captain of a space truck consulting his board computer about Alien life forms and find out about the attached procedures who reports back to the authorities and this company is done for good.
Yea no i cant see that being the case here.. I think the film makes it clear this really is a "Special Order" for Mothers standards, not a general protocol that applys in every possible situation an alien lifeform might be involved.
Dallas wouldn't have found out. Ripley needed to use special override procedures to see the order, and the only reason she did so was because the crew's lives were at risk. Doing so without just cause would've resulted in Dallas getting fired and never working as a ship captain again.
As for the company being done for good if anyone ever found out, I think that's being a little naive. Many major corporations today that are in the business of producing goods have been shown to run sweatshops in less developed countries, employing people in sub-human conditions for absurd pay and thus being, at least indirectly, responsible of people's deaths and suicides. Those corporations are still around today because once you reach a certain size, you become what is known as "Too Big to Fail". Basically it means that your company will be actively preserved by the government no matter how bad you f**k up because your absence from the market would cause more harm than whatever harm you're currently causing.
In Alien, it is implied that the market is essentially a monopoly, controlled by a single company. That's why it is simply called "The Company" - there is no other company to confuse it with. To take them out would mean to take out the entire financial sector of the Alien universe. Nobody's going to do that over a shady order that's most likely never going to even be used. Would the scandal cause some short term financial losses? - Probably. Other than that, the only one who will truly suffer from it all would be whoever it is blowing the whistle.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Nov 28, 2017, 11:35:46 AM
1. Nobody is being sent anywhere in Alien by the company. The premise of the film is that the Nostromo picks up the derelict's signal on its way home, and after a long debate, the crew decides to investigate due to a clause in their contracts about investigating possible lifeforms. If the company knew anything about an alien on an uncharted planet, they wouldn't have sent truck drivers there. Nobody intentionally sends truck drivers to investigate aliens.
2. Me speculating, but Special Order 937 seems to be just a specific protocol activated in the instance of finding an alien - not THE alien. The Nostromo has no contact with the company throughout the whole film. The crew's only contact with anything company related is with Mother, and Mother had to have been programmed in advance. The "evilness" of the company isn't due to how far they'd go to obtain the alien - it's due to how little they care about their own employees, being willing to treat them as expendable without even knowing what they found.
3. Ash replacing the previous Science Officer seems to genuinely be a new policy of having a synthetic in space flights (which is established to have become common practice in Aliens). This is due to the fact that nobody knows about LV-426 or the alien when the switch is made. The signal is discovered on their journey. It makes no sense for the company to plant an android on board specifically for the retrieval of the alien before anyone even knows if and where it exists, and it makes even less sense to send it among truck drivers and not, like, a ship full of androids, or generally people with some sort of knowledge and expertise in the matter, with the specific mission of retrieving the alien.
With that in mind, it makes perfect sense that when Ripley returns to Earth after 57 years, she is being treated like a nut. The company truly didn't know about the alien yet. Which is why Hadley's Hope is established there in the first place and is allowed to go on for 20 years without going alien hunting.
Wtf? The previous science officer being replaced by Ash directly implies a company plot, and that the company specifically gave Ash special order 937 to ensure the retrieval of the Alien. The hoops that you guys jump through to justify these inconsistencies are quite impressive.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Nov 28, 2017, 05:31:00 PM
Wtf? The previous science officer being replaced by Ash directly implies a company plot,
Sigh...
Dallas:
Well... some of you may have figured out we're not home yet, we're only half way there. Mother's interrupted the course of our journey. She's programmed to do that should certain conditions arise. They have. It seems that she has... intercepted a transmission of unknown origin. She got us up to check it out.Ripley: A transmission? Out here?
Lambert: What kind of a transmission?
Dallas: Acoustical beacon. It, uh... repeats at intervals of twelve seconds.
Kane: S.O.S.?
Dallas: I don't know.
Ripley: Human?
Dallas: Unknown.
Quote
and that the company specifically gave Ash special order 937 to ensure the retrieval of the Alien.
The company didn't give Ash special order 937 at all - Mother did. She's programmed to do that should certain conditions arise. They have.
QuoteThe company didn't give Ash special order 937 at all - Mother did. She's programmed to do that should certain conditions arise. They have.
It would be pure shit writing if that science officer replacement plot element wouldve happened at the last possible moment before the Nostromo started its journey back home where it then intercepted the signal. How convenient. How lucky for WY that Ash had been installed just in time to play the henchman for mother.
Or it was the company waiting to replace the science officer out of sight in the outer rim, where nobody would ask any questions just in time before the crew got into hypersleep. They knew about the signal beforehand and they put all the pieces in the right place in a concerted way.
I definitely prefer the latter.
It's only shit writing if you think Ash is special. He isn't. The only thing special about Ash is that he's the particular android located on that particular ship when their journey is interrupted due to the derelict signal.
On the other hand, truly terrible writing would be to:
1. Secretly plant a spy within the ranks of a space trucker crew.
2. Let the crew go on about their business in hopes that they would stumble across the signal.
3. Have them go in blind and check it out
4. Not give them any information about how to bring the alien back to earth (which, keep in mind, is their end goal).
...instead of simply sending a team of experts directly to the derelict in order to investigate it.
So i guess Mother was programmed with "Special Order 937" before Ash got on board and i guess the previous science officer was equally willing to execute it like Ash did? Because they mightve picked up a signal earlier, right? Then why replace him in the first place?
Or wait, are you saying the widespread science officer replacememt wave happened literally few months before the Nostromo picked up that signal? Oh yea, now thats an even worse form of shit writing then.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Nov 28, 2017, 06:37:14 PM
It's only shit writing if you think Ash is special. He isn't. The only thing special about Ash is that he's the particular android located on that particular ship when their journey is interrupted due to the derelict signal.
On the other hand, truly terrible writing would be to:
1. Secretly plant a spy within the ranks of a space trucker crew.
2. Let the crew go on about their business in hopes that they would stumble across the signal.
3. Have them go in blind and check it out
4. Not give them any information about how to bring the alien back to earth (which, keep in mind, is their end goal).
...instead of simply sending a team of experts directly to the derelict in order to investigate it.
Pretty sure that's exactly what Dan O'Bannon intended. Congratulations, you just called Alien (1979)'s writing terrible, because the other possibility you present sounds a lot more contrived and awful.
The way I see it, it was just a coincidence that the Nostromo was going out at that time and it was the fastest and most convenient way of reaching the signal and possibly retrieving a specimen the company saw at that point. Might've taken a lot longer to prepare and send a team of company experts.
QuoteWtf? The previous science officer being replaced by Ash directly implies a company plot, and that the company specifically gave Ash special order 937 to ensure the retrieval of the Alien. The hoops that you guys jump through to justify these inconsistencies are quite impressive.
Yep. The Company arranged to have the Nostromo re-routed as detailed on screen in SO 937. It made it look like they'd picked up the signal by accident, which triggered the contracted clauses that obliged them to check it out.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Nov 28, 2017, 06:37:14 PM
On the other hand, truly terrible writing would be to:
Terrible writing? O'Bannon was nominated for Saturn's Best Writer award for Alien 79. Apparently, you don't hold that award organization in high regard, you know, Saturn Award being arguably the biggest and most well known award organization dedicated to science fiction?
Best to leave the discussion be. Paranoid Android is the type of person who will honestly declare that the film itself must be in error if it doesn't agree with one of his ideas.
I would like to see more striking visuals in Scott's sequel.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 28, 2017, 01:33:36 AM
Right. The Company doesn't care about the welfare of its employees. The example the producers drew from was the Exxon company. That's not too say they would try to harm their employees, just that they weren't going to shed tears if they did.
When the Nostromo disappeared, SO-937 would have left a paper trail right to them. So they scrapped any information about it and walked away whistling tunelessly hoping nobody would notice.
Since no one knew what happened to the ship until Ripley was found, then there would have been information to scrap.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Nov 28, 2017, 02:01:53 AM
And they didn't consider sending private company ships to the same world where they specifically instructed Ash to retrieve the Alien?
If the company had contact with the ship, then that meant they had information on the location of the derelict, etc. But if that did not happen, then it's likely that the special order was built in the computer system and was activated given particular circumstances, with the company only knowing about the alien from Ripley.
Also, as pointed out by others, the ship was rerouted because the derelict signal was detected.
Quote from: monkeylove on Nov 28, 2017, 12:50:50 AM
Everything that the company needed it got from the meeting. The only thing it needed to do was use common sense and ask someone from the colony to investigate the site, something expected from organizations that went through the shuttle "centimeter by centimeter" and that have "surveyed over three hundred worlds". Given that, what grounds would such officials have for getting things over with when the very nature of their organization is based on the drive for profit and acquiring "exclusive rights" on anything discovered?
That's the thing, those board room people had only one meeting with Rips where they merely went over the facts that they simply passed of as either 'delusional' or 'deliberate lies' to get out of a prison sentence, they were only there because her disicion to blow up the ship cost them a lot of money. Ripley was lucky that most of them were pretty much kids themselves when it happened so none of it was personal to them, however protocols are protocols.
It was Burke was knew the whole event had left her with traumatizing nightmares and went through a lot of private talks with her to understand there had to be more behind it. He pretty much admitted himself that it was a bad disicion and that 'HE' made a bad call. You'd think he'd shift of the blame to his superiors or co-conspirators if that was the case, especially when Hudson and Hicks were pretty much ready to blow his head off if not for the aliens' intervention.
In the end it doesn't matter as there are no right or wrong answers to this, only speculation. The movie doesn't show the person or like you think persons that made the final call. We have the guys from tne colony saying it was one guy from Company giving them the orders to go investigate, and we have Ripley accusing Burke it was him, with him not denying it, just trying to make it look like it wasn't a big deal.
There's no speculation. Burke is the 'honch' Simpson refers to, as Ripley details later in the film.
Quote from: monkeylove link=topic=59162.msg2260253#msg2260253
Since no one knew what happened to the ship until Ripley was found, then there would have been information to scrap.
Sending the Nostromo off course to intercept the transmission could still have resulted in the loss of ship and crew regardless of whether they found the organism or not.
Yup.
Quote from: Berend on Nov 29, 2017, 05:07:36 PM
That's the thing, those board room people had only one meeting with Rips where they merely went over the facts that they simply passed of as either 'delusional' or 'deliberate lies' to get out of a prison sentence, they were only there because her disicion to blow up the ship cost them a lot of money. Ripley was lucky that most of them were pretty much kids themselves when it happened so none of it was personal to them, however protocols are protocols.
They only had one meeting because that's what was shown in the movie. Presumably, they spent some time meeting Ripley several times, examining the shuttle, going over the flight recorder, etc.
Also, recall that the investigation involved not just WY and even insurers but also ECA. That means WY would not have been able to bury the case. Following protocol would have meant ECA (which is part of the investigation) contacting the colony after retrieving the contents of the flight recorder and at the very have a team of scientists with armed escort from the colony to at least see if a derelict exists, and if it did cordon it off, declare it off-limits to the colonists, and wait for further instructions. And yet it didn't, which means it was likely working for WY.
As for WY following protocol, see below.
Quote
It was Burke was knew the whole event had left her with traumatizing nightmares and went through a lot of private talks with her to understand there had to be more behind it. He pretty much admitted himself that it was a bad disicion and that 'HE' made a bad call. You'd think he'd shift of the blame to his superiors or co-conspirators if that was the case, especially when Hudson and Hicks were pretty much ready to blow his head off if not for the aliens' intervention.
WY would have followed protocol by denouncing Ripley and instead of acting like "kids" let Burke handle matters for them in exchange for a significant cut in profits. That meant Burke contacting the colony to investigate the site without telling them about any dangers because that would have stopped them from doing so. At the same time, that would have allowed the company to capture at least one living organism, which is why the rescue team found a living face hugger in the lab.
Quote
In the end it doesn't matter as there are no right or wrong answers to this, only speculation. The movie doesn't show the person or like you think persons that made the final call. We have the guys from tne colony saying it was one guy from Company giving them the orders to go investigate, and we have Ripley accusing Burke it was him, with him not denying it, just trying to make it look like it wasn't a big deal.
Well, you don't need more than one guy from the company to give instructions. And given the point that it needed only one guy to do so implies that Burke wasn't merely some wildcatter.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 29, 2017, 10:36:44 PM
Sending the Nostromo off course to intercept the transmission could still have resulted in the loss of ship and crew regardless of whether they found the organism or not.
I don't understand how a ship is lost because it goes off course to intercept a transmission, unless it's way off course to the point that it ends up with not enough fuel to complete its journey.
Space is dangerous, monkeylove. Any unscheduled detours are extremely risky business. System failure, meteor intercept, solar flares, hull breaches, radiation bursts. All kinds of things can kill you in space. Especially if you go off course to unsurveyed/unexplored areas.
They had fires on the bridge and in engineering after they landed. If they'd been worse people could've been injured, they might not have been able to take off again, communications got knocked out. They couldn't stay on LV-426 forever making repairs due to limited life support consumables. Any number of things can go wrong just in normal spaceflight, never mind landing on unsurveyed planets.
Quote from: monkeylove on Nov 30, 2017, 02:38:03 AM
Quote from: SiL on Nov 29, 2017, 10:36:44 PM
Sending the Nostromo off course to intercept the transmission could still have resulted in the loss of ship and crew regardless of whether they found the organism or not.
I don't understand how a ship is lost because it goes off course to intercept a transmission, unless it's way off course to the point that it ends up with not enough fuel to complete its journey.
Could it be that SiL doesn't mean lost, as in
"Where's Earth?" lost, but loss, as in
"the ship and crew get destroyed"? My read of the "Where's Earth?" scene is that they were expecting come out of the freezers once they'd returned to Earth, and therefore expected to see it on their scans. Instead, they popped out early and didn't recognize where they were at. I'm sure Mother knew their location all along... ;)
Regarding SM's comment about the damage they incurred after landing: Those scenes depicting the damage really ramped up the tension for me as a viewer since I can barely imagine handling a terrestrial ship leaving you stranded out to sea, much less an galaxy-voyaging spaceship that might leave you stranded so far from home that rescue might be completely out of the realm of possibility.
Space is dangerous? Yes, monkeylove, you said it, man!
Yes.
I want ALIENS 2 Directed by Ridley Scott.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Nov 30, 2017, 03:04:08 AM
Space is dangerous, monkeylove. Any unscheduled detours are extremely risky business. System failure, meteor intercept, solar flares, hull breaches, radiation bursts. All kinds of things can kill you in space. Especially if you go off course to unsurveyed/unexplored areas.
Likely the computer would calculate such risks. Otherwise, with the ship gone the company loses everything.
Quote from: FenGiddel on Nov 30, 2017, 03:09:06 PM
Could it be that SiL doesn't mean lost, as in "Where's Earth?" lost, but loss, as in "the ship and crew get destroyed"? My read of the "Where's Earth?" scene is that they were expecting come out of the freezers once they'd returned to Earth, and therefore expected to see it on their scans. Instead, they popped out early and didn't recognize where they were at. I'm sure Mother knew their location all along... ;)
Regarding SM's comment about the damage they incurred after landing: Those scenes depicting the damage really ramped up the tension for me as a viewer since I can barely imagine handling a terrestrial ship leaving you stranded out to sea, much less an galaxy-voyaging spaceship that might leave you stranded so far from home that rescue might be completely out of the realm of possibility.
Space is dangerous? Yes, monkeylove, you said it, man!
I meant the same thing, which is why I mentioned the loss of fuel. Of course, that's based on the assumption that the ship requires a certain amount of fuel to complete its journey. Before going off course, the computer will obviously have to determine if they can afford to do so.
Quote from: monkeylove on Nov 30, 2017, 04:11:09 PM
I meant the same thing, which is why I mentioned the loss of fuel. Of course, that's based on the assumption that the ship requires a certain amount of fuel to complete its journey. Before going off course, the computer will obviously have to determine if they can afford to do so.
True, that. Hard science makes science fiction plotting problematic, but when applied to a narrative, can generate interesting theories. ")
Quote from: FenGiddel on Nov 30, 2017, 04:50:27 PM
True, that. Hard science makes science fiction plotting problematic, but when applied to a narrative, can generate interesting theories. ")
I was thinking along the lines of common sense rather than hard science. That is, cargo ships run by for-profit companies have certain limitations in terms of provisions to be carried for the crew, energy needed to power the engines, computer, life support, etc. Given that, the computer program installed by WY would weigh various factors, such as the distance from the course to the site being investigated, the amount of energy left to run the ship, etc., before making the decision to go off-course and wake up the crew to investigate. Perhaps, in this case, the planetoid was not far away, i.e., if the signal from the derelict was not that strong.
Quote from: FenGiddel on Nov 30, 2017, 04:50:27 PM
Quote from: monkeylove on Nov 30, 2017, 04:11:09 PM
I meant the same thing, which is why I mentioned the loss of fuel. Of course, that's based on the assumption that the ship requires a certain amount of fuel to complete its journey. Before going off course, the computer will obviously have to determine if they can afford to do so.
True, that. Hard science makes science fiction plotting problematic, but when applied to a narrative, can generate interesting theories. ")
Pretty sure I worked out that the diversion to LV-426 only added an extra light year to the voyage.
Quote from: SM on Dec 01, 2017, 02:55:21 AM
Quote from: FenGiddel on Nov 30, 2017, 04:50:27 PM
Quote from: monkeylove on Nov 30, 2017, 04:11:09 PM
I meant the same thing, which is why I mentioned the loss of fuel. Of course, that's based on the assumption that the ship requires a certain amount of fuel to complete its journey. Before going off course, the computer will obviously have to determine if they can afford to do so.
True, that. Hard science makes science fiction plotting problematic, but when applied to a narrative, can generate interesting theories. ")
Pretty sure I worked out that the diversion to LV-426 only added an extra light year to the voyage.
Rock on! ;)
As long as there's enough fuel to complete the journey. ;)
They can calculate risk, but it's still a percentage. A 90% chance stuff will go right is still a 10% chance it'll go wrong.
Quote from: PierreVW on Nov 30, 2017, 04:08:21 PM
Yes.
I want ALIENS 2 Directed by Ridley Scott.
If an Alien movie is going to be filmed by Fox in the next couple of years, I think that Ridley would be the top choice to direct it.
If the franchise is put on hold for several years, then other things can happen in terms of story and filmmakers.
* As for the discussion of the backstory to "Alien";
From information in "Alien", (the chat about the bio-weapons division, Ash being put on board at the last minute, and the SO) I lean towards the film theory that;
- The W/Y weapons division knew about the derelict/xenomorph.
- The weapons division could not openly get to the specimens due to that solar system with LV-426 being off limits due to the problem of it having dangerous creatures.
- The weapon division unofficially planted Ash on board the Nostromo and gave him the SO to get specimens from LV-426. In terms of W/Y as a whole, imo it was a rogue operation.
(Ash eventually goes off mission but that's another topic for another time.)
* As for the question of fuel for the journey, if Ash had successfully gotten a specimen on board (such as the one inside Kane and put Kane in stasis as Parker had suggested and quarantined Kane in a separate/sealed room), then the mission would have been a success. The only question would be getting the Nostromo back to the weapons division.
I'll speculate about that; imo the weapons division could have manipulated the cargo ship system and gotten any needed fuel to the Nostromo.
;)
If the system was off limits why did the Nostromo go there?
Quote from: SM on Dec 02, 2017, 09:20:33 PM
If the system was off limits why did the Nostromo go there?
I'll try to be more clear with the film theory.
Officially W/Y didn't want ships going to that system.
That answers the question; 'how come another ship didn't stumble onto the signal from LV-426 since it was broadcasting for years?'.
As to why the Nostromo went to the system with LV-426, it was as you discussed earlier.
The ship was diverted into that system which is what the weapons division wanted.
;)
QuoteThat answers the question; 'how come another ship didn't stumble onto the signal from LV-426 since it was broadcasting for years?'.
Why is that a question?
It took 57 years for Ripley's transmission from the Narcissus to reach Fiorina.
True, if the current timeline fits in then the beacon hasn't been going off that long. Not thousands of years
** cry's thinking about it.
Or it's been going for yonks and they can make up any reason they want for it not to be picked up sooner. Non issue I would've thought.
Quote from: SM on Dec 03, 2017, 07:13:58 AM
Or it's been going for yonks and they can make up any reason they want for it not to be picked up sooner. Non issue I would've thought.
Well I guess that depends if you're in the David made the Alien camp or not and the whole "into the back end of Alien" comment.
We're probably gonna see a group of engineers going after David...
and going on the run after meeting his "perfect organism".
They'll get "hugged"
The ship crash lands
They set up a warning beacon before dying.
10 years before Alien, tops.
Simples.
The big revelation will probably be that David has "seeded" the aliens across different planets.
Opening up the franchise for more adventures after Alien Resurrection.
We might see a Queen.
But what i REALLY want to see is a xeno that comes out of an engineer.
Been dying to see that since the first film.
and
I'd be VERY OK with it being this motherf**ker:
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/alienanthology/images/6/64/Ultramorph-Engineer_height_1.png/revision/latest?cb=20130820104742)
Might even be exactly that design, given how much Ridley liked Huante's concept art.
I think which ever way they go, some part of the Canon is going to have to take a hit. I'm not fussed now though.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 03, 2017, 10:56:35 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 03, 2017, 07:13:58 AM
Or it's been going for yonks and they can make up any reason they want for it not to be picked up sooner. Non issue I would've thought.
Well I guess that depends if you're in the David made the Alien camp or not and the whole "into the back end of Alien" comment.
Doesn't really have to be the 'David made it' camp. Could be the 'why didn't Prometheus pick it up' camp.
Quote from: SM on Dec 03, 2017, 10:35:01 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 03, 2017, 10:56:35 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 03, 2017, 07:13:58 AM
Or it's been going for yonks and they can make up any reason they want for it not to be picked up sooner. Non issue I would've thought.
Well I guess that depends if you're in the David made the Alien camp or not and the whole "into the back end of Alien" comment.
Doesn't really have to be the 'David made it' camp. Could be the 'why didn't Prometheus pick it up' camp.
You're saying the crashed Derelict won't be anything to do with the final prequel then? Possibly.
No, more that the Aliens being very, very old - or at least the Derelict being on LV-426 for a very long time - was thrown into doubt by Prometheus before we ever got to David creating the Aliens thing.
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 02:10:55 AM
No, more that the Aliens being very, very old - or at least the Derelict being on LV-426 for a very long time - was thrown into doubt by Prometheus before we ever got to David creating the Aliens thing.
Why? The Prometheus was just going to that Planet regardless.
Yeah, but why didn't they pick up the Derelict signal (Blu-ray extras aside)? It was being sent from a moon that would've taken Prometheus an hour or two to travel to.
One possible explanation is the Derelict hadn't arrived there yet, thus undermining the idea it's been on LV-426 for millennia.
What I'm saying is Prometheus already started undermining previously held theories (rather explicitly with Jockies now being Engineers; other less explicit), and Covenant continued in that vein.
Maybe they did and that's why they sent the Nostromo?
**Mythos is back on!
Checking the spelling of Nostromo I have just right now discovered the source of the ships names. I did not know this...
QuoteMaybe they did and that's why they sent the Nostromo?
They had no other ships going to Thedus anytime sooner?
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 04:42:44 AM
QuoteMaybe they did and that's why they sent the Nostromo?
They had no other ships going to Thedus anytime sooner?
True, still there's not a hell of a lot of time between Prom and Alien.
Assuming Thedus wasn't established for another 10-15 years, that leaves another 15-20 years worth of ships passing that region.
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 05:05:53 AM
Assuming Thedus wasn't established for another 10-15 years, that leaves another 15-20 years worth of ships passing that region.
Is Thedus further than Origae- 6? Isn't that a 8 year trip?
We don't actually know where Thedus is. When Fox nicked and reworked my starmap for the blu-rays, Thedus didn't feature (the map was zoomed to a point that cropped Thedus out). However, they left my position for Fiorina in, so if we assume Thedus is still in the same spot, it's located orbiting Epsilon Reticuli (about 59ly from Earth).
Using grainy screencaps I have a theory about where Origae-6 is, but nothing official has been established (until I tell Fox ;D).
So you're telling me there's a chance....
Bet they do look at your timeline to double check theirs!
I do it for them.
In a world where Jockies and big pale blue baldies and an android created the Aliens, there is always a chance.
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 02:10:55 AM
No, more that the Aliens being very, very old - or at least the Derelict being on LV-426 for a very long time - was thrown into doubt by Prometheus before we ever got to David creating the Aliens thing.
Doesn't that idea all hinge on what Dallas said about the space jockey being "dead a long time" and that it looked fossilised?
Quote from: Rudiger on Dec 04, 2017, 10:25:12 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 02:10:55 AM
No, more that the Aliens being very, very old - or at least the Derelict being on LV-426 for a very long time - was thrown into doubt by Prometheus before we ever got to David creating the Aliens thing.
Doesn't that idea all hinge on what Dallas said about the space jockey being "dead a long time" and that it looked fossilised?
I guess movie facts aside, it's just a damn cool idea, the kind of idea that draws people into sci-fi in the first place. Something technologically advanced yet older than us and now gone. There's a reason the Atlantis type myth is popular.
When I think about it, it's probably my favourite type of back story, The Thing etc...
Finding out that it's not that old at all and some Android did it, not really that cool. Kinda sucky balls. It's not even anything to do with the Alien. Just that whole idea of that Jockey being there for like 15 years....
Lovecraft, Forbidden Planet, long list. I wouldn't mind if this turns that on its head. And I wouldn't mind if a future films turned it on its head again.
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 10:39:53 AM
Lovecraft, Forbidden Planet, long list. I wouldn't mind if this turns that on its head. And I wouldn't mind if a future films turned it on its head again.
I feel like though if they flip things around like that, and this will sound kind of stupid considering it's all just made up anyway, it'll feel like they just flipped it because nobody liked it, not because that's what happened. Ya dig?
I've had the idea for a while of how they could correct something a lot of people didn't like, by David being confronted by the Engineers with their own Aliens (that are ancient) and condemning his facsimiles and his pride.
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 10:47:24 AM
I've had the idea for a while of how they could correct something a lot of people didn't like, by David being confronted by the Engineers with their own Aliens (that are ancient) and condemning his facsimiles and his pride.
That's as far as I'd be willing to go. I'm not sure how you get that across though, there would have to be a lot of exposition between David and....? or a narration for the audience to get that (not even sure how that'd work without spoiling something)
It might just look like - oh it's Aliens fighting each other...whats going on? I'm not thinking about you and I watching it, thinking about the other 90%.
flipping around due to some audience members being salty about it would be a very.... weak thing to do.
But i guess Ridley opened up the door to that being a possibility what with David
being a bit faulty and not being able to tell his favorite old authors apart...
It kinda brings his own authorship into question...
Quote from: Rudiger on Dec 04, 2017, 10:25:12 AM
Doesn't that idea all hinge on what Dallas said about the space jockey being "dead a long time" and that it looked fossilised?
For fossilization to occur, things need to be buried deep in the ground
for many many years.
Dallas had no idea what the f**k he was talking about
even without the added knowledge of the prequels.
Could have been frozen though right?
In 1979 I think the point was more to say "this thing is bloody old" rather than that to be scientifically accurate. Seems like a kind of cop out to use that against whats implied. That's just me though, other people might think different.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 04, 2017, 10:57:48 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 10:47:24 AM
I've had the idea for a while of how they could correct something a lot of people didn't like, by David being confronted by the Engineers with their own Aliens (that are ancient) and condemning his facsimiles and his pride.
That's as far as I'd be willing to go. I'm not sure how you get that across though, there would have to be a lot of exposition between David and....? or a narration for the audience to get that (not even sure how that'd work without spoiling something)
It might just look like - oh it's Aliens fighting each other...whats going on? I'm not thinking about you and I watching it, thinking about the other 90%.
I'm not bothered either way - but if David got on board another Juggernaut; or indeed the Derelict - and sees a sea of eggs, it's easy enough to explain with a couple of lines of dialogue. Wouldn't need to get any more expository than the scene with David and Oram. Or we see a mural that provides details visually.
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 11:44:19 AM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 04, 2017, 10:57:48 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 10:47:24 AM
I've had the idea for a while of how they could correct something a lot of people didn't like, by David being confronted by the Engineers with their own Aliens (that are ancient) and condemning his facsimiles and his pride.
That's as far as I'd be willing to go. I'm not sure how you get that across though, there would have to be a lot of exposition between David and....? or a narration for the audience to get that (not even sure how that'd work without spoiling something)
It might just look like - oh it's Aliens fighting each other...whats going on? I'm not thinking about you and I watching it, thinking about the other 90%.
I'm not bothered either way - but if David got on board another Juggernaut; or indeed the Derelict - and sees a sea of eggs, it's easy enough to explain with a couple of lines of dialogue. Wouldn't need to get any more expository than the scene with David and Oram. Or we see a mural that provides details visually.
True, I can see what you're saying.
I guess thinking about it, I could also see the SJ wanting to just take the eggs back, like a - "you don't get to play with that".
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 10:47:24 AM
I've had the idea for a while of how they could correct something a lot of people didn't like, by David being confronted by the Engineers with their own Aliens (that are ancient) and condemning his facsimiles and his pride.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/2jitKAovm0Zaw/giphy.gif)
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 10:47:24 AM
I've had the idea for a while of how they could correct something a lot of people didn't like, by David being confronted by the Engineers with their own Aliens (that are ancient) and condemning his facsimiles and his pride.
I could really get behind that.
I could see David entering some kind of an engineer locale... Feeling... Pride of some sort. he thinks he's got the upper hand. He's superior... His creations are thriving, destroying everything in their path, and he is free...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1068.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu446%2Fopenmaw%2F5967127142394104_zpsv2zuoodd.jpg&hash=046d280952b052bbe80ed2716c4216bac4524af0)
... and then a door opens, revealing...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1068.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu446%2Fopenmaw%2Fwe_call_them_engineer_p01_by_apikit-d6p5u8w_zpsydgjikaw.jpg&hash=94d5a25fe9a271df1c5a56c240b2a8384d93eef4)
...Engineers, unleashing their creations upon David and his own progeny.
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 10:47:24 AM
I've had the idea for a while of how they could correct something a lot of people didn't like, by David being confronted by the Engineers with their own Aliens (that are ancient) and condemning his facsimiles and his pride.
I really like this idea
It's a cool concept and fixes a heap of stuff. Even turns it into what a lot of us were hoping for. I really don't see it happening though, not on the budget that's likely for the third movie. I'd dig just one cool Engineer and a couple of Aliens though, it doesn't have to be all out space war.
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 10:47:24 AM
I've had the idea for a while of how they could correct something a lot of people didn't like, by David being confronted by the Engineers with their own Aliens (that are ancient) and condemning his facsimiles and his pride.
Does this idea leave the space jockey intact as ancient, and not David
My answer is YES!. I want to see a Queen in Scott's new entry.
But only IF David creates the Queen. LOL....
Quote from: PierreVW on Dec 06, 2017, 01:13:44 AM
My answer is YES!. I want to see a Queen in Scott's new entry.
But only IF David creates the Queen. LOL....
With Pulse Rifels attached to her back.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 06, 2017, 02:07:34 AM
Quote from: PierreVW on Dec 06, 2017, 01:13:44 AM
My answer is YES!. I want to see a Queen in Scott's new entry.
But only IF David creates the Queen. LOL....
With Pulse Rifels attached to her back.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: ;D
Quote from: OpenMaw on Dec 05, 2017, 09:48:02 AM
I could see David entering some kind of an engineer locale... Feeling... Pride of some sort. he thinks he's got the upper hand. He's superior... His creations are thriving, destroying everything in their path, and he is free...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1068.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu446%2Fopenmaw%2F5967127142394104_zpsv2zuoodd.jpg&hash=046d280952b052bbe80ed2716c4216bac4524af0)
... and then a door opens, revealing...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1068.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu446%2Fopenmaw%2Fwe_call_them_engineer_p01_by_apikit-d6p5u8w_zpsydgjikaw.jpg&hash=94d5a25fe9a271df1c5a56c240b2a8384d93eef4)
...Engineers, unleashing their creations upon David and his own progeny.
I hope someone at Fox or Disney now has someone checking these forums and take this idea since it would redeem the last two films, and nicely close David's arc.
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 10:47:24 AM
I've had the idea for a while of how they could correct something a lot of people didn't like, by David being confronted by the Engineers with their own Aliens (that are ancient) and condemning his facsimiles and his pride.
Perhaps those ancient Aliens are Giger's Biomechanoid dark angels. That would be sweet.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 06, 2017, 02:07:34 AM
Quote from: PierreVW on Dec 06, 2017, 01:13:44 AM
My answer is YES!. I want to see a Queen in Scott's new entry.
But only IF David creates the Queen. LOL....
With Pulse Rifels attached to her back.
Yeah, Disney execs figured having the Xenos learn how to use guns was a good idea.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 06, 2017, 12:38:02 AM
It's a cool concept and fixes a heap of stuff. Even turns it into what a lot of us were hoping for. I really don't see it happening though, not on the budget that's likely for the third movie. I'd dig just one cool Engineer and a couple of Aliens though, it doesn't have to be all out space war.
A lower number would work for me too. I think I'd like to see it played out on a larger, more epic scale but I'd be happy taking it on a smaller scale if it "fixed" the whole Aliens being a decade or so old thing.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 06, 2017, 02:07:34 AM
Quote from: PierreVW on Dec 06, 2017, 01:13:44 AM
My answer is YES!. I want to see a Queen in Scott's new entry.
But only IF David creates the Queen. LOL....
With Pulse Rifels attached to her back.
(https://www.herocollector.com/uploads/media/Jeri-small.jpg)
pew pew
Could possibly be concept art for next film or the Alien that burst from Apone.
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 10:47:24 AM
I've had the idea for a while of how they could correct something a lot of people didn't like, by David being confronted by the Engineers with their own Aliens (that are ancient) and condemning his facsimiles and his pride.
I really like this idea. It would definitely appease many peoples main concerns and be dramatically very satisfying.
Sounds too much like fan service. Damage control to appease fans.
Fan service as damage control to fix some previous fan service as damage control for a non-issue. :laugh:
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 06, 2017, 10:56:42 AM
Sounds too much like fan service. Damage control to appease fans.
This is the first time I've probably agreed with you. Scorpio, you aint that bad, lets watch Aliens together and we can play with our pulse rifles.
It doesn't matter if its fan service if it works and I think that could work and feel like a natural progression of the story.
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 10:47:24 AM
I've had the idea for a while of how they could correct something a lot of people didn't like, by David being confronted by the Engineers with their own Aliens (that are ancient) and condemning his facsimiles and his pride.
If Ridley is going to address the fact that the original Space Jockey was ancient, and the temples in Prometheus were ancient; this idea seems to be the only logical way to tie up the loose ends. That what David has created is in fact inferior to what the Engineers have already created.
David has some serious aspirations (as based on the Advent feature) to use his creations to "rule the galaxy." The next film would not be interesting story-wise if David remains at the top of the hill. There needs to be a plot line that topples him, and a far more sophisticated Alien creature, created on an unknown off-world base, that comes into the picture to destroy what David has done seems to be the only way this story can properly advance.
The Engineers use their own aliens. But it turns out they're made out of 3rd humanoid race.
Bam! Universe expanded.
But I think it's more logical we get to see Engineers and humans VS David and xenomorphs.
Or everyone vs everyone else. All out war. No one survives but the individual(s) on board the Derelict.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Dec 06, 2017, 04:51:07 PM
The Engineers use their own aliens. But it turns out they're made out of 3rd humanoid race.
Bam! Universe expanded.
But I think it's more logical we get to see Engineers and humans VS David and xenomorphs.
Or everyone vs everyone else. All out war. No one survives but the individual(s) on board the Derelict.
Could be, but Ridley referenced The War of the Worlds, and in that story there is a force tearing down the world while humanity tries to figure out how to stop it. And then it turns out that all of their weapons couldn't do what a few germs could.
It makes me wonder who is who in Ridley's WOTW scenario...the Engineers raining hell down on David and his colonist project, or David raining hell down on another planet. Who knows, but I'm in.
Given production costs and the need to sell to an international market, any fan service will likely be secondary.
But that's literally what the Alien was in Covenant.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 07, 2017, 07:57:35 AM
But that's literally what the Alien was in Covenant.
Yeah I thought about that too. Very true.
That, and the drinky bird. ;D
That shot lingered too long and ended up being clunky.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 06, 2017, 11:19:19 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 06, 2017, 10:56:42 AM
Sounds too much like fan service. Damage control to appease fans.
This is the first time I've probably agreed with you. Scorpio, you aint that bad, lets watch Aliens together and we can play with our pulse rifles.
Only if you turn the safety switch of your pulse rifle on.
More likely ideas borrowed from the first two movies given the argument that if it worked in the past, it should do as well for an international audience, many of whom probably never heard of those films.
Quote from: SM on Dec 07, 2017, 10:05:00 AM
That shot lingered too long and ended up being clunky.
Yeah, agreed. I could see what Ridley was trying to do with it, like using the homage as a sort of foreshadowing for what was about to happen aboard the Covenant, but it just felt very awkward.
Nah. I think that colony at the atmosphere processor should be its own thing: the route that's taken when the alien devolves into a natural life cycle rather than an 'alien' one.
Egg morphing and biological weapon enhancement is much more f***ed up and interesting.
I find the alien queen way too much like the dinosaur that Giger was desperately trying to avoid in his designs.
Quote from: Gash on Dec 13, 2017, 09:10:42 PM
I find the alien queen way too much like the dinosaur that Giger was desperately trying to avoid in his designs.
This caught my attention. I've been a Giger fan long before his Alien fame. Clear back when I bought my ELP Brain Salad Surgery album and drawn towards any info on him since. Is this something you've read in an article or interview and he said that? If so, I find that intriguing since the dinosaur explosion popularity had not hit the masses yet. In fact, dinosaurs in film were practically non-existent during his period of designing the Alien. I mean, it sounds like Giger. I wonder why he was so desperate to avoid any similarity to dinosaurs.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Dec 13, 2017, 09:29:05 PM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 13, 2017, 09:10:42 PM
I find the alien queen way too much like the dinosaur that Giger was desperately trying to avoid in his designs.
This caught my attention. I've been a Giger fan long before his Alien fame. Clear back when I bought my ELP Brain Salad Surgery album and drawn towards any info on him since. Is this something you've read in an article or interview and he said that? If so, I find that intriguing since the dinosaur explosion popularity had not hit the masses yet. In fact, dinosaurs in film were practically non-existent during his period of designing the Alien. I mean, it sounds like Giger. I wonder why he was so desperate to avoid any similarity to dinosaurs.
Giger was working alongside Roger Dicken to create the alien forms and Dicken had worked on films like The Land that Time Forgot and Warlords of Atlantis, so he was slightly geared towards that dinosaur design initially. During construction of the Chestburster it went from having black eyes and forearms to the familiar design it became. at one stage Giger wrote ( I think in Giger's Alien) that between them they had drawn back from elements that made the alien look too similar to a dinosaur - legs rather than forearms possibly but I'd have to find the quote.
Thanks for share. It's interesting that he was trying to avoid any similarity to dinosaurs. I'm not suggesting Giger foresaw the onslaught of dinosaur tales and documentaries capturing the masses attention spawned by Spielberg. More like an intriguing coincidence Giger wanted his creation to be unique to the unknown and upcoming dino juggernaut.