https://roguereviewer.wordpress.com/2020/10/12/defining-canon-in-an-alien-world/
QuoteAs a franchise consultant to 20th Century Fox on ALIEN, Predator, and Planet of the Apes, I often had to take a long hard look at a number of long beloved franchise stories and try to figure out how exactly that could still fit in canon. If I couldn't, I had to recommend they be tossed. I proposed a third option–what I've come to call barroom canon. These are stories overheard in a bar (or read in a comic, or played in a video game, or even posted on Facebook) that may or may not have some truth to them. This allows canon to have some flex in regards to including stories that otherwise could no longer count in a franchise's development.
As the lead writer and canon consultant on the ALIEN RPG by Free League Publishing, I developed the following Canon Tier guidelines to working out the ALIEN universe.
It's interesting to see Isolation alongside the films proper.
The canon wars are over. Finally.
From now on, this article will be the bible of the Alien canon.
Some notes:
QuoteTIER I CANON
Definitive and authorized canon to the Alien/Prometheus universe:
David's Lab: Last Signs of Life
Well, this is unexpected.
QuoteFive Crew Messages
Phobos
It is obvious. But I didn't think that such rubbish should be mentioned in principle. Although, this only adds points to the article.
QuoteProject Prometheus: Mission
Prometheus Transmission
I don't remember exactly, but isn't there a mention of LV-426 and signal from Derelict somewhere here? If the crashed Derelict is already there, isn't it against the Covenant that David created a species of alien?
QuoteTIER III CANON
Majority of the content is canon with some minor problems that can be explained away as myth or heresay.
Alien Novels:
Alien: Out of the Shadows
Alien: River of Pain
Ok, these books are mediocre at best. But I'm surprised. Don't they, together with Sea of Sorrows, form the canon trilogy? In addition, it is not specifically indicated what exactly is heresy in the books, and what is part of the canon.
QuoteAliens: Colonial Marines Video Game (Creatures and Technology are canon, the story is not)
Really good solution. The content of ACM is great, but the story (and execution) is the worst.
QuoteSHOE-HORN CANON:
Outland
YES!
QuoteSoldier
Took a note.
Quote from: Drukathi on Oct 13, 2020, 10:30:23 AM
The canon wars are over. Finally.
Pffft, never
QuoteMike Tanaka Alien Isolation Twitter account
So, Twitter exists in Alien universe ?
QuoteAliens: Colonial Marines Video Game (Creatures and Technology are canon, the story is not)
Love that one :D
Quote from: Drukathi on Oct 13, 2020, 10:30:23 AM
QuoteSHOE-HORN CANON:
Outland
YES!
YES! indeed
So WY Report and Sea of Sorrow were put in a different tier than Out of Shadows and River of Pain. Huh.
Quote from: Drukathi on Oct 13, 2020, 10:30:23 AM
The canon wars are over. Finally.
Hold my headcanon.
QuoteAliens: Colonial Marines Video Game (Creatures and Technology are canon, the story is not)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcR4cPeYKDEdBZZHm2AdhBPuhCM_lnJvDiOe7A&usqp=CAU)
This article hurts my brain. Just the declared seperator of Tier 2 from Tier 1 being 'sources are absolutely canon until Ridley Scott or another producer throws a curveball" just pains the logic living in me. To think things like the Alien Isolation video game in Tier I are untouchable by director curveballs just degrades the whole piece to me.
And I know he delved into Predator a while back but I rely on The Predator's stance by Shane and others in late 2018 that AvP is now Predator canon as current news... until it's not again.
I'm surprised the comics are held in such high regard. Titles like Defiance, Resistance and Rescue with W-Y having facilities to experiment on Aliens kind of nullifies Aliens and Alien 3 does it not?
RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon....
(https://i.ibb.co/rwS173j/4c0ea0163a7bcdf118889bdf738c010d.gif)
Canon is a bad word and I hate it.
I clicked on this thread for a canon war. Where's the canon war?!
Canon is an over cooked beast.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Oct 13, 2020, 04:29:51 PM
Canon is a bad word and I hate it.
I second.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Oct 13, 2020, 08:58:12 AM
As a franchise consultant to 20th Century Fox on ALIEN, Predator, and Planet of the Apes, I often had to take a long hard look at a number of long beloved franchise stories and try to figure out how exactly that could still fit in canon. If I couldn't, I had to recommend they be tossed.
Nonsense, he could just give Xenomrph a call. He can make anything fit.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 13, 2020, 05:35:10 PM
I clicked on this thread for a canon war. Where's the canon war?!
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdorableGrizzledFireant-max-1mb.gif)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 13, 2020, 05:35:10 PM
I clicked on this thread for a canon war. Where's the canon war?!
Start one. We need to know where that Egg on Sulaco came from
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 13, 2020, 05:35:10 PM
I clicked on this thread for a canon war. Where's the canon war?!
Living up to your name I see :P
But as I said on Discord: I can see so many plotholes with this persons idea for canon lines and missing parts and ignoring holes/stuff we lack to fit them together, I could make a better canon than this if I had the time, or SM and he would blast me out of the water. To me its just bias opinion of the person behind the RPG who tries to get the canon written around what they did for the RPG book and wouldnt take it as a canon timeline at all.
The best canon is left up to the viewer/fan to make for themself, just dont try to push it down others throats and respect others canon ideas, is the way to go.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 13, 2020, 04:26:43 PM
RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon....
https://i.ibb.co/rwS173j/4c0ea0163a7bcdf118889bdf738c010d.gif
This is a good resume of the article and that persons canon bias.
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Oct 13, 2020, 12:35:50 PM
I'm surprised the comics are held in such high regard. Titles like Defiance, Resistance and Rescue with W-Y having facilities to experiment on Aliens kind of nullifies Aliens and Alien 3 does it not?
Alien Resurrection nullifies those two movies, too.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Oct 13, 2020, 05:42:41 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Oct 13, 2020, 08:58:12 AM
As a franchise consultant to 20th Century Fox on ALIEN, Predator, and Planet of the Apes, I often had to take a long hard look at a number of long beloved franchise stories and try to figure out how exactly that could still fit in canon. If I couldn't, I had to recommend they be tossed.
Nonsense, he could just give Xenomrph a call. He can make anything fit.
he clarified that in the next sentence.
Quote from: judge death on Oct 13, 2020, 07:05:32 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 13, 2020, 05:35:10 PM
I clicked on this thread for a canon war. Where's the canon war?!
Living up to your name I see :P
But as I said on twitter: I can see so many plotholes with this persons idea for canon lines and missing parts and ignoring holes/stuff we lack to fit them together, I could make a better canon than this if I had the time, or SM and he would blast me out of the water. To me its just bias opinion of the person behind the RPG who tries to get the canon written around what they did for the RPG book and wouldnt take it as a canon timeline at all.
The best canon is left up to the viewer/fan to make for themself, just dont try to push it down others throats and respect others canon ideas, is the way to go.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 13, 2020, 04:26:43 PM
RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon....
https://i.ibb.co/rwS173j/4c0ea0163a7bcdf118889bdf738c010d.gif
This is a good resume of the article and that persons canon bias.
He isn't forcing anything down anyone's throat - in the article he says, " All that being said, the Alien RPG is a guide to YOUR alien universe, official or not. Make your game universe your own. What you want in your campaign is absolutely what should be in there, no matter what."
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 13, 2020, 07:09:10 PM
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Oct 13, 2020, 12:35:50 PM
I'm surprised the comics are held in such high regard. Titles like Defiance, Resistance and Rescue with W-Y having facilities to experiment on Aliens kind of nullifies Aliens and Alien 3 does it not?
Alien Resurrection nullifies those two movies, too.
But
Resurrection explicitly makes it known that the USM were unable to come by Aliens from any other source and that obtaining a sample from Ripley was the only option that they knew of.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Oct 13, 2020, 07:14:59 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 13, 2020, 07:09:10 PM
Quote from: TheBATMAN on Oct 13, 2020, 12:35:50 PM
I'm surprised the comics are held in such high regard. Titles like Defiance, Resistance and Rescue with W-Y having facilities to experiment on Aliens kind of nullifies Aliens and Alien 3 does it not?
Alien Resurrection nullifies those two movies, too.
But Resurrection explicitly makes it known that the USM were unable to come by Aliens from any other source and that obtaining a sample from Ripley was the only option that they knew of.
It still nullifies Ripley's sacrifice by not only bringing back Aliens, but literally making Ripley the mechanism for doing so.
That's not the same thing at all.
How so
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/WOYKaXG2xJsBO/giphy.gif)
Canon war just finds a way.
I saw this article yesterday and thought. Yeah, this is about right.
Gonna sit back and watch the fireworks display on this one.
Gaska is 100% on the ball though. This is more or less how the property works.
-Windebieste.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Oct 13, 2020, 10:13:19 PM
Canon war just finds a way.
The war has already ended :)
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 13, 2020, 09:27:46 PM
How so
AR builds from Ripley's sacrifice, it doesn't retroactively change information.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 13, 2020, 10:29:07 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 13, 2020, 09:27:46 PM
How so
AR builds from Ripley's sacrifice, it doesn't retroactively change information.
How are the other things retroactively changing information?
This was outlined already.
I'll have to take your word for it
You had replied to the post itself my dude.
So I saw this and I am elated to know that there are three separate continuities for the Alien, Predator AVP franchises.
However, I did have one question as he had said that each series doesn't really connect one another-- at least canonically. Naturally, I didn't really agree with this as some media even refers to the events from one franchise or another, treating them as having historically happened. For example, we know in AVP 2010 that the events of Hadley's Hope were mentioned by Tequila and that Ripley was also referenced in Karl Bishop Weyland's audio tapes. So, I asked Gaska about it. In other words, did the events of ALIENS happen in the AVP universe if a character mentioned it in dialogue?
This is the answer...
(https://i.imgur.com/nVvjyTj.png)
So alternate versions of Predator, Predator 2, Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 have happened in the AVP Universe but certain things are different... Wonder what those small differences are. Aftermath events perhaps? :-\
Quote from: SiL on Oct 13, 2020, 11:01:09 PM
You had replied to the post itself my dude.
I feel like there's some misunderstanding on my part, I'm having trouble connecting the dots here. I apologize, it's been a long day.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 14, 2020, 12:02:25 AM
Quote from: SiL on Oct 13, 2020, 11:01:09 PM
You had replied to the post itself my dude.
I feel like there's some misunderstanding on my part, I'm having trouble connecting the dots here. I apologize, it's been a long day.
If the company already has the Alien and is studying it, Ripley's attempts to stop the company getting it are pretty moot.
That's fair. That said, Ripley doesn't know that, and it doesn't invalidate the audience's or Ripley's emotional journey.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Oct 14, 2020, 12:00:28 AM
So I saw this and I am elated to know that there are three separate continuities for the Alien, Predator AVP franchises.
However, I did have one question as he had said that each series doesn't really connect one another-- at least canonically. Naturally, I didn't really agree with this as some media even refers to the events from one franchise or another, treating them as having historically happened. For example, we know in AVP 2010 that the events of Hadley's Hope were mentioned by Tequila and that Ripley was also referenced in Karl Bishop Weyland's audio tapes. So, I asked Gaska about it. In other words, did the events of ALIENS happen in the AVP universe if a character mentioned it in dialogue?
This is the answer...
https://i.imgur.com/nVvjyTj.png
So alternate versions of Predator, Predator 2, Alien, Aliens and Alien 3 have happened in the AVP Universe but certain things are different... Wonder what those small differences are. Aftermath events perhaps? :-\
That is such a cop out. Probably the only way to answer it, though.
Effectively, that's saying that AVP encompasses everything, and thus everything is canon in the AVP universe. Since it's 'a version' of things; both Charles and Peter Weyland existed, we can have Engineers vs Predator, David obviously recreated the eggs because the Alien was hunted by Predators on earth in ancient Antarctica, and everything else can be explained away. Gaska has basically just said that AVP is the Xenomrph timeline.
Cool.
The Correct Timeline, you mean. ;)
Quote from: Stitch on Oct 14, 2020, 03:07:25 AM
Effectively, that's saying that AVP encompasses everything, and thus everything is canon in the AVP universe. Since it's 'a version' of things; both Charles and Peter Weyland existed, we can have Engineers vs Predator, David obviously recreated the eggs because the Alien was hunted by Predators on earth in ancient Antarctica, and everything else can be explained away. Gaska has basically just said that AVP is the Xenomrph timeline.
Not how I interpreted his answer and his article... To me, this means that if you want a strictly Alien timeline, you have to go with Prometheus and the Alien films only. If you want an Alien vs Predator timeline, you have to go with the AVP films, with the first two Predator films and the Alien films, presumably only the three Alien films (Resurrection can fit seamlessly) but drop Prometheus and Peter Weyland from THAT particular canon.
...I'm okay with this!
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 14, 2020, 03:37:58 AM
The Correct Timeline, you mean. ;)
Does David create the aliens in that timeline?
Gaska did mention the possibility of an AVP canon list when I asked him if he would update with the question I presented to him.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 14, 2020, 04:40:08 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 14, 2020, 03:37:58 AM
The Correct Timeline, you mean. ;)
Does David create the aliens in that timeline?
as stitch pointed out, he couldn't have. ;)
Do the prequels and AvP co-exist in The Correct Timeline?
Sure
I see it this way - AvP (the third franchise, universe) is a sandbox formed from Alien and Predator. Thus: Alien and Predator events can be canon for AvP. But AvP doesn't set lore and events for Alien and Predator. In other words: AvP is not canon for Alien or Predator.
Seems to be what Gaska's saying.
I have gripes with some tiers of canon, namely Sea of Sorrows can't happen unless Out of the Shadows happens... But the harpoon totally nix continuity in Aliens.
Quote from: muthur9000 on Oct 14, 2020, 10:38:29 AM
Sea of Sorrows can't happen unless Out of the Shadows happens...
Yes, it's a bit confusing. Especially without explanation. I believe that only the location (LV-178, underground alien city, dog-like alien civ...) is taken from the Out of Shadows, while the Ripley mid-story is completely ignored. Ah, even so it doesn't make any sense!
Perhaps the point is that Sea of Sorrows is simply of higher quality than OoT and RoP. Ah, again it doesn't make any sense...
idk
Alternative canons that coexist in parallel doesn't sound bad though.
Quote from: judge death on Oct 13, 2020, 07:05:32 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 13, 2020, 04:26:43 PM
RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon, RPG, Canon....
https://i.ibb.co/rwS173j/4c0ea0163a7bcdf118889bdf738c010d.gif
This is a good resume of the article and that persons canon bias.
Oh that wasn't my intention at all. I was just expressing my canon war fatigue :laugh:
So Predator is "also separate from AVP and Alien/Prometheus". But "Weyland Yutani Report" is canon. And "WYR" mentioned events of "Fire and Stone" and "Rage War". "Out of the Shadows" & "River of Pain" are canon... which lead us to "Rage war"... How does it works? "Bug hunt" anthology is described as myths and legends, but "If It Bleeds' that uses the same characters that appeared in "Bug hunt" and "Rage War" is non-canon for Alien...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkMu45cXcAEvMg8?format=png&name=900x900) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkMxZP4WAAEqsqU?format=jpg&name=small)
Quote from: Drukathi on Oct 14, 2020, 11:15:47 AM
Quote from: muthur9000 on Oct 14, 2020, 10:38:29 AM
Sea of Sorrows can't happen unless Out of the Shadows happens...
Yes, it's a bit confusing. Especially without explanation. I believe that only the location (LV-178, underground alien city, dog-like alien civ...) is taken from the Out of Shadows, while the Ripley mid-story is completely ignored. Ah, even so it doesn't make any sense!
idk
But events of "Out of Shadows" mentioned in Ripley biography in "WY Report", which is canon.
(https://i.ibb.co/DgjL816/Screenshot-20201014-150149-Samsung-Internet.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/4VDczJn/IMG-20150810-163538-2.png) (https://ibb.co/mcYmkSV)
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-31-2018/AmLaHE.gif)
This would all be unnecessary if Xenomrph would complete his Grand Unification Project.
Or if the Disweyland Canon Gods finally do their thing...
(https://i.gifer.com/RTo7.gif)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Oct 14, 2020, 07:04:27 PM
This would all be unnecessary if Xenomrph would complete his Grand Unification Project.
Gaska's article just did.
So a piece of the whole story is kinda canon, but a piece with Predator and AvP is definitely non-canon? But Predator: Fire and Stone, AvP: Fire and stone and Prometheus: Fire and Stone are parts of the same story. How does it work?
(https://sun9-75.userapi.com/impf/DPh2T6bF8gJceGvYYqe6mnJZj4gfcYot0S3c1A/e61cTPahOXQ.jpg?size=431x140&quality=90&proxy=1&sign=dd69c6b5538c51f6d4b02dd2d1d97181)
For those who haven't noticed, Gaska's article has changed a bit since he first posted it. Some things are re-worded, some sources have been moved to other tiers.
Looks like everything's now in it's rightful place. Barring obviously the later Brian Reed stuff potentially contradicting AR, Isolation's awful incongruous Novelisation, and I'd argue Phobos considering the footage used during the tests themselves being meta. Interesting that Harvest's not included in the 40th Anniversary films list category, if it's a qualitative statement Night Shift does not belong here either, in my opinion anyway. Also interesting to see the Special Editions treated as the primary version of events in canon, makes total sense for Aliens and Alien³ definitely, glad to see it. Good to see Fire and Stone/Life and Death/The Rage War's in Myths and Legends, it's depiction of the Alien and The Pathogen can not co-exist with the films themselves or indeed Isolation, the only question that remains being what parts exactly of OotS and RoP and SoS gave up their Tier 1 canon status.
Also worth noting that Drew is talking specifically about this being canon to the RPG. I mean it's fair to say other EU authors would have been subject to the same sort of listing, but if it's something that gets your back up, he is very deliberate it saying it was for writing the RPG.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Oct 15, 2020, 08:53:59 AM
Also worth noting that Drew is talking specifically about this being canon to the RPG. I mean it's fair to say other EU authors would have been subject to the same sort of listing, but if it's something that gets your back up, he is very deliberate it saying it was for writing the RPG.
I actually asked him about that (whether the list was the "official" canon policy or just the framework he used for the RPG) - he said his list would have been the "official" franchise-wide canon policy had Disney not bought Fox. Since they did, everything is up in the air. So it may or may not be the actual official canon policy under Disney, but it would have been under Fox.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 15, 2020, 06:07:12 AM
For those who haven't noticed, Gaska's article has changed a bit since he first posted it. Some things are re-worded, some sources have been moved to other tiers.
Massive disclaimer at the beginning now, I see!
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 15, 2020, 09:14:49 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Oct 15, 2020, 08:53:59 AM
Also worth noting that Drew is talking specifically about this being canon to the RPG. I mean it's fair to say other EU authors would have been subject to the same sort of listing, but if it's something that gets your back up, he is very deliberate it saying it was for writing the RPG.
I actually asked him about that (whether the list was the "official" canon policy or just the framework he used for the RPG) - he said his list would have been the "official" franchise-wide canon policy had Disney not bought Fox. Since they did, everything is up in the air. So it may or may not be the actual official canon policy under Disney, but it would have been under Fox.
Sometimes people don't want to hear that. Was just offering it as an out.
Well I mean you're not wrong, everything is up in the air due to the Disney buyout. So at the end of the day, the list kinda does only apply to the RPG. :P
Dare I be controversial and suggest Alien franchise consultants are perhaps partially to blame for the madness? Personal preference of wanting these franchises separate appears to be a common thead among them, and the subsequent twisting in and out of things like the Weyland Yutani Report mentioned Fire and Stone, and the cherry picking of what they want to conditionally include just cultivates such a state of disarray and fan turmoil. Perhaps. :)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 15, 2020, 12:28:37 PM
Dare I be controversial and suggest Alien franchise consultants are perhaps partially to blame for the madness? Personal preference of wanting these franchises separate appears to be a common thead among them, and the subsequent twisting in and out of things like the Weyland Yutani Report mentioned Fire and Stone, and the cherry picking of what they want to conditionally include just cultivates such a state of disarray and fan turmoil. Perhaps. :)
(https://38.media.tumblr.com/2635510c8a196cb4f250dd3f6fdaa4fb/tumblr_ncrvp08xLL1r1k6vvo2_r1_500.gif)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 15, 2020, 12:28:37 PM
Dare I be controversial and suggest Alien franchise consultants are perhaps partially to blame for the madness? Personal preference of wanting these franchises separate appears to be a common thead among them, and the subsequent twisting in and out of things like the Weyland Yutani Report mentioned Fire and Stone, and the cherry picking of what they want to conditionally include just cultivates such a state of disarray and fan turmoil. Perhaps. :)
There is no madness here. Worse. They just don't take the franchise seriously.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 15, 2020, 12:28:37 PM
Dare I be controversial and suggest Alien franchise consultants are perhaps partially to blame for the madness? Personal preference of wanting these franchises separate appears to be a common thead among them, and the subsequent twisting in and out of things like the Weyland Yutani Report mentioned Fire and Stone, and the cherry picking of what they want to conditionally include just cultivates such a state of disarray and fan turmoil. Perhaps. :)
There is no madness, though?
Gaska clarified that it's Fox's mandate that A/P/AvP are separate. The WYR came out 4 years ago, but was actually written a couple years before that (you can ask SM when he did his consulting work on it). Fire and Stone and Out of the Shadows came out six years ago, before Alien Covenant came out and upended things. Like his article says, things are canon until they're not.
Quote from: Drukathi on Oct 15, 2020, 01:36:21 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 15, 2020, 12:28:37 PM
Dare I be controversial and suggest Alien franchise consultants are perhaps partially to blame for the madness? Personal preference of wanting these franchises separate appears to be a common thead among them, and the subsequent twisting in and out of things like the Weyland Yutani Report mentioned Fire and Stone, and the cherry picking of what they want to conditionally include just cultivates such a state of disarray and fan turmoil. Perhaps. :)
There is no madness here. Worse. They just don't take the franchise seriously.
Who is "they" and which franchise do you mean? AvP?
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 15, 2020, 02:03:27 PM
Who is "they" and which franchise do you mean? AvP?
FOX and all their "consultants". Alien mostly, AvP as a consequence - too.
Sounds like you're just salty honestly because from my point of view Andrew Gaska clearly takes it seriously.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 15, 2020, 02:03:27 PM
Gaska clarified that it%u2019s Fox%u2019s mandate that A/P/AvP are separate. The WYR came out 4 years ago, but was actually written a couple years before that (you can ask SM when he did his consulting work on it). Fire and Stone and Out of the Shadows came out six years ago, before Alien Covenant came out and upended things. Like his article says, things are canon until they're not.
'The Predator' came out October 2018. And it was canon to AvP and vice-versa. And I doubt 20th executives are worried about mandating canon stories, especially EU canon stories - rather just the mandated separations in licensing and royalties thereof. The consultants do the EU canon mandating I wager. But when you only pay for Alien, you have to keep it just Alien.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 15, 2020, 02:03:27 PM
There is no madness, though?
(https://media.tenor.com/images/3d4821266f021d4dfa375e62077355e2/tenor.gif)
THIS IS CANON!!!!(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/16/4d/5c/164d5ce091b6ffdbbb2105ea27a5dd39.gif)
;D
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 15, 2020, 02:03:27 PM
Gaska clarified that it's Fox's mandate that A/P/AvP are separate. The WYR came out 4 years ago, but was actually written a couple years before that (you can ask SM when he did his consulting work on it). Fire and Stone and Out of the Shadows came out six years ago, before Alien Covenant came out and upended things. Like his article says, things are canon until they're not.
But at the end of 2016, the event "Life and Death" was released, which continues "Fire and Stone", which in turn was mentioned in the WYR. "Covenant" was already in active development and everything was clear with its script even before the release of "LaD". At the same time, Andrew mentions the series "Aliens: Fire and Stone" and "Aliens: Life and Death" in his list, throwing out Prometheus and Predator. It's still part of the same story, though. How can some chapters of a story be in the universe and other chapters of the same story not?
It will always bum me out that the only Prometheus-inspired comic Dark Horse was ever able to release were part of big AVP crossover events. I would have loved to have seen some of their writers run wild with stories that drew from Prometheus and Covenant before Dark Horse got the rug pulled out from under them.
I still think a premium format graphic novel following Shaw and David's journey between the two films would be very interesting.
Quote from: Drukathi on Oct 15, 2020, 02:29:40 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 15, 2020, 02:03:27 PM
Who is "they" and which franchise do you mean? AvP?
FOX and all their "consultants". Alien mostly, AvP as a consequence - too.
FOX taking it seriously is one thing, but saying that the consultants don't take it seriously is, uh, one hell of an opinion I guess.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 15, 2020, 03:16:32 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 15, 2020, 02:03:27 PM
Gaska clarified that it%u2019s Fox%u2019s mandate that A/P/AvP are separate. The WYR came out 4 years ago, but was actually written a couple years before that (you can ask SM when he did his consulting work on it). Fire and Stone and Out of the Shadows came out six years ago, before Alien Covenant came out and upended things. Like his article says, things are canon until they're not.
'The Predator' came out October 2018. And it was canon to AvP and vice-versa. And I doubt 20th executives are worried about mandating canon stories, especially EU canon stories - rather just the mandated separations in licensing and royalties thereof. The consultants do the EU canon mandating I wager.
It's my understanding that they don't.
As for 'The Predator', like the article says that's still a Fox mandate.
As Hicks pointed out, the article is essentially just the framework the RPG used, and while it could have been the "official" canon policy, ultimately it's not. And like the article says, you're encouraged to believe whatever you want to believe.
A "personal canon", if you will.
You know, like I've been saying for years. ;)
Quote from: Hed-Veta on Oct 15, 2020, 03:30:25 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 15, 2020, 02:03:27 PM
Gaska clarified that it's Fox's mandate that A/P/AvP are separate. The WYR came out 4 years ago, but was actually written a couple years before that (you can ask SM when he did his consulting work on it). Fire and Stone and Out of the Shadows came out six years ago, before Alien Covenant came out and upended things. Like his article says, things are canon until they're not.
But at the end of 2016, the event "Life and Death" was released, which continues "Fire and Stone", which in turn was mentioned in the WYR. "Covenant" was already in active development and everything was clear with its script even before the release of "LaD". At the same time, Andrew mentions the series "Aliens: Fire and Stone" and "Aliens: Life and Death" in his list, throwing out Prometheus and Predator. It's still part of the same story, though. How can some chapters of a story be in the universe and other chapters of the same story not?
"Continuity" and "canon" are not synonyms. Disney/Fox could declare tomorrow that 'Aliens' isn't canon but everything else still is, and that would end up being their "official" position, continuity be damned.
As for F&S and the Weyland Yutani Report, both were written well before Covenant, which changed things. What do you want them to do? Publish a "revised" version of the WYR that corrects this?
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 15, 2020, 03:36:10 PM
As for 'The Predator', like the article says that's still a Fox mandate.
Logically that makes no sense. I believe you're confusing licensing with canon/universe. Also am I correct in saying Gaska's work and subsequent familiarity on the Predator side predates The Predator?
Quote from: Hed-Veta on Oct 15, 2020, 03:30:25 PM
How can some chapters of a story be in the universe and other chapters of the same story not?
When you only rent a license for one of these several franchises, you can only pull from that single franchise. When you pay for only Alien, all you get is only Alien. The error I see is the confusion of a licensing line being the same dividing line for stories that count. That's the mistake.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 15, 2020, 03:36:10 PM
As for F&S and the Weyland Yutani Report, both were written well before Covenant, which changed things. What do you want them to do? Publish a "revised" version of the WYR that corrects this?
That's a good idea, by the way. Hypothetical "Weyland-Yutani Report. Volume 2" with new and additional information, taking into account new comics, novels.. Or some "OWLF data"... It's not the first time Disney has released a dozen and a half visual dictionaries on Star Wars for example. I would even buy it if it turned out to be a good and interesting read.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 15, 2020, 03:04:08 PM
Sounds like you're just salty honestly because from my point of view Andrew Gaska clearly takes it seriously.
To be salty is your credo.
I don't mean Gaska - only he did an excellent job.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 15, 2020, 03:47:03 PMThe error I see is the confusion of a licensing line being the same dividing line for stories that count. That's the mistake.
Gaska's entire point is that when you have to split on licensing lines, those are the stories that count. What the consultants want in terms of keeping things conjoined or separate is largely irrelevant.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 15, 2020, 09:10:01 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 15, 2020, 03:47:03 PMThe error I see is the confusion of a licensing line being the same dividing line for stories that count. That's the mistake.
Gaska's entire point is that when you have to split on licensing lines, those are the stories that count. What the consultants want in terms of keeping things conjoined or separate is largely irrelevant.
Rather than using "count", when licensing only Alien, I'd say those are the only issues you can "refer too" unless you fork over more money for multiple licensing. It's all about the presentation. Cherry picking issues and suggesting the other issues don't count is peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining. And that presentation to fans, the way it's framed, is exactly what consultants have control over.
Gaska very specifically says in his article that no, he doesn't have control over that:
" The notes below about Predator, AVP, and Easter Eggs are guidelines I was given by FOX's franchise department when I was brought on board as a consultant."
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 15, 2020, 09:45:50 PM
Gaska very specifically says in his article that no, he doesn't have control over that:
" The notes below about Predator, AVP, and Easter Eggs are guidelines I was given by FOX's franchise department when I was brought on board as a consultant."
Yes. Of course. He's dealing with licensing and potentiallly what can constitute a lawsuit if the terms are breached with the licensor. But the control to frame it in the terms of licensing versus in-universe is there. As in this is what he can refer to in Fire and Stone when licensing only Alien. Our beloved franchises are a special animal and needs to be treated as such.
How do you propose he should have done it differently, if per his instructions he can't reference anything Predator/AvP?
Edit— for what it's worth, I went ahead and asked him about Shane Black's comments re: AvP, we'll see what he says I guess.
Also, he wrote the Predator Bible prior to 'The Predator' being made, but 'The Predator' went through so many rewrites and reshoots that things were muddied, weren't fully conveyed (an example he gave was that the idea of Predators altering their own genetics was supposed to be related to only certain clans, and was meant to tie back to the Super Predators from 'Predators'), things like that.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 15, 2020, 09:38:49 PM
Rather than using "count", when licensing only Alien, I'd say those are the only issues you can "refer too"
Right, so the ones that count for that license.
QuoteCherry picking issues and suggesting the other issues don't count is peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining. And that presentation to fans, the way it's framed, is exactly what consultants have control over.
It's framed in the "myths and legends" category along with the Kenner comics and computer games. It's literally as low as it can be on the totem pole without hitting the shoe-horn and non-canon category. It's not like the guy's giving any of it any real weight to begin with.
I think he gives things weight on a case-by-case basis (or rather, offers the reader the wiggle room to give things as much weight as they want to). Like, the scorpinoids from the Kenner comics get an entire fleshed-out section. :P
As he said, the RPG itself is designed to let you take what you want and drop what you don't. You could totally ignore the films if you wanted and build your entire campaign around the Kenner comics.
That sounds like a hilarious idea.
I'll be honest I want to play that now.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 15, 2020, 10:38:54 PM
You could totally ignore the films
:o
So I can build a soft reboot of a movie, through a campaign, and at the same time preserve the original in the least imaginative way possible?
(https://i.ibb.co/cTdbTQH/Pics-Art-10-16-12-00-49.jpg)
With the RPG you can do what you want. That's up to you and if you're players enjoy it.
I also want to point out with all the "Fox not caring" comments that there's an unfortunate business reality that goes on behind-the-scenes making comics/games/etc. There is a division between that goes on in the films and what goes on in the EU and everything else (the licensing department). Films will always take precedence.
So when we're talking about an official Fox canon, it is the licensing department that has this. It's the people that work with them - the novel authors, the game developers, the comic writers - that have to follow these guidelines. Or contribute to them. This department had the story-group that the consultants work with. So when Drew didn't know Black considered AvP part of the The Predator, that's because he wasn't working with Black, he was working with other parts of Fox completely separate to theatrical.
I asked him about it, the short version seems to be a case of the left hand not always knowing what the right hand was doing.
Yeah, that mixed messaging causes the turmoil causes the frustration causes some to pull out of a genuinely wonderful fandom. That's why I stand by a need of a reframing of communication when it comes to this otherwise wonderful universe. :)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 16, 2020, 01:19:26 PM
Yeah, that mixed messaging causes the turmoil causes the frustration causes some to pull out of a genuinely wonderful fandom. That's why I stand by a need of a reframing of communication when it comes to this otherwise wonderful universe. :)
The solution is pretty much what the RPG (and Gaska's blog post) suggest - choose to follow what you enjoy and disregard what you don't, regardless of what the "official" line is.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Oct 16, 2020, 07:54:30 AM
With the RPG you can do what you want. That's up to you and if you're players enjoy it.
All of this sound like a dream come true. However, if one day I ever play it, it have to be done online cos while some of my real life friends are geeks, they are not interested in Alien & Predator at all *sigh* :laugh:
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:22:51 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 16, 2020, 01:19:26 PM
Yeah, that mixed messaging causes the turmoil causes the frustration causes some to pull out of a genuinely wonderful fandom. That's why I stand by a need of a reframing of communication when it comes to this otherwise wonderful universe. :)
The solution is pretty much what the RPG (and Gaska's blog post) suggest - choose to follow what you enjoy and disregard what you don't, regardless of what the "official" line is.
Until someone floats a theory that is shot down because a portion was developed from a source not official per licensing. I wish it didn't go
there, but it always seems to go there.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 16, 2020, 08:20:12 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:22:51 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 16, 2020, 01:19:26 PM
Yeah, that mixed messaging causes the turmoil causes the frustration causes some to pull out of a genuinely wonderful fandom. That's why I stand by a need of a reframing of communication when it comes to this otherwise wonderful universe. :)
The solution is pretty much what the RPG (and Gaska's blog post) suggest - choose to follow what you enjoy and disregard what you don't, regardless of what the "official" line is.
Until someone floats a theory that is shot down because a portion was developed from a source not official per licensing. I wish it didn't go there, but it always seems to go there.
Another example why "official" is not a useful concept. :)
That said, this forum already structures itself with Alien, Predator, and AvP sections.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 16, 2020, 05:33:49 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Oct 16, 2020, 07:54:30 AM
With the RPG you can do what you want. That's up to you and if you're players enjoy it.
All of this sound like a dream come true. However, if one day I ever play it, it have to be done online cos while some of my real life friends are geeks, they are not interested in Alien & Predator at all *sigh* :laugh:
Well, If you'd had real life friends interested in Alien & Predator then why would've you ended up here ?
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 16, 2020, 08:20:12 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 16, 2020, 02:22:51 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Oct 16, 2020, 01:19:26 PM
Yeah, that mixed messaging causes the turmoil causes the frustration causes some to pull out of a genuinely wonderful fandom. That's why I stand by a need of a reframing of communication when it comes to this otherwise wonderful universe. :)
The solution is pretty much what the RPG (and Gaska's blog post) suggest - choose to follow what you enjoy and disregard what you don't, regardless of what the "official" line is.
Until someone floats a theory that is shot down because a portion was developed from a source not official per licensing. I wish it didn't go there, but it always seems to go there.
The simple solution to that is to define if you're actually interested in things from the wider lore, or just what is currently considered canon, for the purpose of the discussion.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 16, 2020, 05:33:49 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Oct 16, 2020, 07:54:30 AM
With the RPG you can do what you want. That's up to you and if you're players enjoy it.
All of this sound like a dream come true. However, if one day I ever play it, it have to be done online cos while some of my real life friends are geeks, they are not interested in Alien & Predator at all *sigh* :laugh:
That's not a problem in this age, Immortan. That's how we run all our sessions.
I'd dig seeing you participate in a session IJ.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 17, 2020, 06:34:12 PM
I'd dig seeing you participate in a session IJ.
Thanks! I'd love to do it in the future. :)
Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 15, 2020, 10:36:16 PM
I think he gives things weight on a case-by-case basis (or rather, offers the reader the wiggle room to give things as much weight as they want to). Like, the scorpinoids from the Kenner comics get an entire fleshed-out section. :P
Clearly everyone is wrong about canon though. The only stories that are canon are the ones when the Alien is Blue and the Characters have at least one person dressed in blue. If not, its non-canon.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/161b108038917b94a84f86174dbfcd58/tumblr_mxd0w7GshY1rhd1xfo1_500.gif)
(https://memepedia.ru/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/wat.jpg)
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 17, 2020, 09:44:08 PM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Oct 17, 2020, 06:34:12 PM
I'd dig seeing you participate in a session IJ.
Thanks! I'd love to do it in the future. :)
I'm buying a new mic soon (one that actually works this time, apologies to Hicks, FI, HuDa, et al) and will 100% be running games when I do.
Interesting to see the list.
But i really don't see Ridley caring about "the canon status" of anything outside of his own movies, tbh. He'll probably find a way to make everything else "impossible" with the 3rd prequel. :laugh:
And frankly.. i wouldn't lose any sleep if he did. If Ridley wants to have a more "private" version of the story.. fine.
"Canon" is interesting for people writing the comics and novels, games and etc... or if you're running an RPG campaign where the history of the shared world needs to be set in stone.
As a fan i'll just stick with enjoying the individual films, games, books, etc. on their own merits.
Part of the appeal of the series is seeing artists bring their own take on the material, anyway.
Quote from: skhellter on Nov 30, 2020, 11:03:57 AM
And frankly.. i wouldn't lose any sleep if he did. If Ridley wants to have a more "private" version of the story.. fine.
You're a gentleman and a scholar, as usual.
thanks, i try. :D
The thing that might f**k up everything is that Jon Spaihts' Engineers script had a lot of pyramids on LV426... and i definitely see Ridley re-using that concept if he goes back there.
And how will that make sense with Aliens? It won't. But i'm sure some poor sod will write a bad novel set on Hadley's hope trying to fanwank everything into making sense. :laugh:
If there's one thing that prometheus, Covenant and Raised by Wolves taught us.. Ridley loves flashy scifi nonsense.
...and then Disney will reboot everything. :laugh:
Quote from: skhellter on Nov 30, 2020, 11:03:57 AM
Interesting to see the list.
But i really don't see Ridley caring about "the canon status" of anything outside of his own movies, tbh. He'll probably find a way to make everything else "impossible" with the 3rd prequel. :laugh:
And frankly.. i wouldn't lose any sleep if he did. If Ridley wants to have a more "private" version of the story.. fine.
"Canon" is interesting for people writing the comics and novels, games and etc... or if you're running an RPG campaign where the history of the shared world needs to be set in stone.
As a fan i'll just stick with enjoying the individual films, games, books, etc. on their own merits.
Part of the appeal of the series is seeing artists bring their own take on the material, anyway.
I agree for the most part; I'd prefer to not see Ridley do any more damage than he's already done. You're right that he wouldn't care about anything other than what he's done (and arguably, not even that).
Quote from: skhellter on Nov 30, 2020, 11:03:57 AM
Interesting to see the list.
But i really don't see Ridley caring about "the canon status" of anything outside of his own movies, tbh. He'll probably find a way to make everything else "impossible" with the 3rd prequel. :laugh:
I don't think he's cares about the canon status of his own movies. He goes by the rule of cool. And it's whatever he deems cool at the time.
Yeah, that very much seems the case. I was listening to PO's interview with Ian Nathan last night and he was talking about how on Covenant (he was on set doing all those stock interviews which I hadn't known) , the creature FX folk told him not to mention the Queen because Ridley hated it. It wasn't a part of his Alien life cycle...
That's, uh
That sure is an opinion Ridley Scott has.
That doesn't shock me. Ridley is very much doing his own thing with the prequels - he doesn't even seem to have all that much regard for maintaining strict continuity with his own original film.
That's all fine by me. I just want him to see this vision through before we move on to the next venture in the Alien universe.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Dec 02, 2020, 05:36:23 AM
he doesn't even seem to have all that much regard for maintaining strict continuity with his own original film.
He barely cares about continuity within his own films. :laugh:
"Well, It's not quite continuity, but it definetly has continuity's DNA in it, you know ? Like, it evolved from it. Personally, I think continuity is cooked, it ran out of steam. We have to come up with something new, to replace it"
(https://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3GkR8U1HEtefXBpuYaHKDt3NrPztlisHdJeSMv4qlOjRUQ5u1hu4NdCpjQZHg)
Quote from: skhellter on Dec 03, 2020, 08:26:16 AM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Dec 02, 2020, 05:36:23 AM
he doesn't even seem to have all that much regard for maintaining strict continuity with his own original film.
He barely cares about continuity within his own films. :laugh:
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/alienanthology/images/5/58/Vladimir.jpg)
Say that again.
Quote from: SM on Dec 03, 2020, 12:21:12 PM
Quote from: skhellter on Dec 03, 2020, 08:26:16 AM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Dec 02, 2020, 05:36:23 AM
he doesn't even seem to have all that much regard for maintaining strict continuity with his own original film.
He barely cares about continuity within his own films. :laugh:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/alienanthology/images/5/58/Vladimir.jpg
Say that again.
I presume that he is directing that statement to his own corpse that already died a scene or two ago.
head canon: they were twins.
:laugh:
RIDLEY SCOTT: "I am altering the canon, pray I don't alter it any further!"
(https://media.tenor.com/images/67f2bb84f4d5895aebc7ec67fed8058a/tenor.gif)
Quote from: EJA on Jan 14, 2021, 12:51:46 PM
RIDLEY SCOTT: "I am altering the canon, pray I don't alter it any further!"
Well, if he can use his dark powers to succefully execute a top tier Gigerish set piece, or make the Alien ancient again, my forum signature will be something like
"Hail Riddles, all mighty dark lord of canon" 🙌
One can only dream
#MakeAlienAncientAgain. I like that.
Wait a minute! Are you fine gentlemen finally ready to kick the Alien creating David off the canon cliff?
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/195c611a479ddcce8b179ee3057f2407/tenor.gif?itemid=14617447)
If you're looking for Ancient Aliens, might I kindly recommend Prometheus. ;)
Chariots of the Gods, man. They practically own South America. I mean, they taught the Incas everything they know.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 15, 2021, 04:05:46 PM
#MakeAlienAncientAgain. I like that.
Wait a minute! Are you fine gentlemen finally ready to kick the Alien creating David off the canon cliff?
https://media1.tenor.com/images/195c611a479ddcce8b179ee3057f2407/tenor.gif?itemid=14617447
Only if keeping
Michael Fasbender acting crazyDavid himself in franchise
Well ridley never cared for canon anyways and just do what he come up with ina whim, prometheus original draft was quite different before he went with the gods and who created humans and ignored the alien point that started the whole idea....
So Ridley retconning and doing something new wouldnt surprise me a bit.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Dec 02, 2020, 05:36:23 AM
That doesn't shock me. Ridley is very much doing his own thing with the prequels - he doesn't even seem to have all that much regard for maintaining strict continuity with his own original film.
That's all fine by me. I just want him to see this vision through before we move on to the next venture in the Alien universe.
But by having things like the Alien being a new creation by David, he's drastically limited story possibilities.
How?
Quote from: EJA on Jan 29, 2021, 01:14:48 PM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Dec 02, 2020, 05:36:23 AM
That doesn't shock me. Ridley is very much doing his own thing with the prequels - he doesn't even seem to have all that much regard for maintaining strict continuity with his own original film.
That's all fine by me. I just want him to see this vision through before we move on to the next venture in the Alien universe.
But by having things like the Alien being a new creation by David, he's drastically limited story possibilities.
On the contrary, I find that that very concept opens up a
vase urn of infinite possibilities for the future.
Yes I agree, total opposite
David creating the Xenos is the key to expanding the Alien universe and its stories
The real alien is the black goo that opens up stories of even greater imagination & horror, to the point you'll be rooting for the Xenos to make it against some even more horrendous foe
A Xenomorph Prime, or a hierarchy of castes or keeping it all a mystery makes it even messier, limited and shallow
Quote from: EJA on Jan 29, 2021, 01:14:48 PM
But by having things like the Alien being a new creation by David, he's drastically limited story possibilities.
I'm not certain about limiting story possibilities, but in its aftermath, the Alien universe does feel to me a heck-of-a lot smaller. :-\
Remember when Alien3 killed the LAST KNOWN ALIEN CREATURE?
And then the sequel jumped the shark to find a way to bring them back?
And then there were aliens on earth all of a sudden? (until someone decided to ignore those movies)
If a writer/producer comes up with an idea that the higher ups like.. and it has to ignore Prometheus/Alien Covenant to work at all.. they will do it.
This already is an insanely convoluted series. It will keep being chaotic and convoluted.
...And That's A Good Thing.
Pretty much this cos in universe: the Alien can't exist prior David's stuff, but you can expand in the future. Also AVP is a separate IP. And if you look at it with 3D glases, the future is bomechanical, the AI concept has its potential and the black goo is doing things in parallel to the Alien movies somewere.
And out universe, nothing is going to stop a filmmaker from doing whatever he wants, even if that involves f**king the prequels. It is a characteristic trait of the Alien IP :laugh:
Which is why I say give Ridley one more, and let him see that vision through to conclusion, and then pass the reigns over to someone else. Whether they acknowledge Ridley's prequel trilogy or not doesn't matter so much to me, I just want to see this vision completed before we move onto the next iteration.
Quote from: David Weyland on Jan 29, 2021, 11:03:17 PM
Yes I agree, total opposite
David creating the Xenos is the key to expanding the Alien universe and its stories
The real alien is the black goo that opens up stories of even greater imagination & horror, to the point you'll be rooting for the Xenos to make it against some even more horrendous foe
A Xenomorph Prime, or a hierarchy of castes or keeping it all a mystery makes it even messier, limited and shallow
I believe we will have to agree to disagree - limiting the Alien's existence to "20 years before 'Alien', tops" shrinks things massively in my book.
I like where this is headed...
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 30, 2021, 03:06:40 AM
Quote from: David Weyland on Jan 29, 2021, 11:03:17 PM
Yes I agree, total opposite
David creating the Xenos is the key to expanding the Alien universe and its stories
The real alien is the black goo that opens up stories of even greater imagination & horror, to the point you'll be rooting for the Xenos to make it against some even more horrendous foe
A Xenomorph Prime, or a hierarchy of castes or keeping it all a mystery makes it even messier, limited and shallow
I believe we will have to agree to disagree - limiting the Alien's existence to "20 years before 'Alien', tops" shrinks things massively in my book.
The "Alien's" existence may only date back to roughly 20 years before the first film, sure, but lowercase "
aliens'" existence, stemming from the pathogen in various shapes and forms that were not shaped by David, extend back almost infinitely. ;)
Going by ALIEN RESURRECTION, the Xenomorphs are extinct after that movie, ruling out future appeatances.
^ the real reason why Alien3 and Resurrection will inevitably get booted off the "canon".
You can't really build sequels on that if you have any actual respect for the stories those movies were telling.
Alien3 has power specifically because it IS about Ripley doing her best to eradicate the species once and for all.
Making up other planets with more xenos for the purpose of sequelitis... undoes that.
[Resurrection was an embarrassment. It being set a few hundred years after Alien3 doesn't change the fact that it
was still a laughable way to try to undo the whole point of the 3rd film.]
At this point i'd even prefer if Alien3 got booted off of canon because the idea of random storytellers trying to shoehorn their shitty stories after it gives me a headache.
Resurrection and Aliens Colonial Marines were bad enough.
(and i know there's some little goofy ass novels set after resurrection)
Well, the Resurrection game has its moments. But aye! Blast that piece of junk out of the canon! ;D
To which I repeat - who cares about canon!?! Just make some cool movies. 8)
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jan 30, 2021, 01:58:53 PM
Just make some cool movies. 8)
(https://s2.gifyu.com/images/giphy-1abb2354e850689ef.gif)
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 30, 2021, 01:54:43 PM
Well, the Resurrection game has its moments. But aye! Blast that piece of junk out of the canon! ;D
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/24f5588c79271cdecdd7deeaa9efb73e/tumblr_mxeczz4Zk41sa11jco1_400.gif)
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jan 30, 2021, 01:58:53 PM
To which I repeat - who cares about canon!?! Just make some cool movies. 8)
You must be new here.... ;)
Allow me to rephrase - I don't care about overarching canon. 8)
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 30, 2021, 01:54:43 PM
Well, the Resurrection game has its moments. But aye! Blast that piece of junk out of the canon! ;D
Yeah, it's definitely my least favourite of the original Alien movies, and I wouldn't shed any tears over it. I don't mind Alien 3 though, funnily enough.
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jan 30, 2021, 03:10:38 PM
Allow me to rephrase - I don't care about overarching canon. 8)
we don't but audiences kind of... do.
And a film series that just rewrites itself after every few releases = box office cancer.
(cof, Terminator)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 30, 2021, 03:03:20 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jan 30, 2021, 01:54:43 PM
Well, the Resurrection game has its moments. But aye! Blast that piece of junk out of the canon! ;D
https://64.media.tumblr.com/24f5588c79271cdecdd7deeaa9efb73e/tumblr_mxeczz4Zk41sa11jco1_400.gif
That gif explains it better than my words. And it comes from the movie itself! It's like ecofriendly or something :o
Or something! :laugh:
Can we just have another canon war already?
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jan 30, 2021, 03:12:45 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jan 30, 2021, 03:06:40 AM
Quote from: David Weyland on Jan 29, 2021, 11:03:17 PM
Yes I agree, total opposite
David creating the Xenos is the key to expanding the Alien universe and its stories
The real alien is the black goo that opens up stories of even greater imagination & horror, to the point you'll be rooting for the Xenos to make it against some even more horrendous foe
A Xenomorph Prime, or a hierarchy of castes or keeping it all a mystery makes it even messier, limited and shallow
I believe we will have to agree to disagree - limiting the Alien's existence to "20 years before 'Alien', tops" shrinks things massively in my book.
The "Alien's" existence may only date back to roughly 20 years before the first film, sure, but lowercase "aliens'" existence, stemming from the pathogen in various shapes and forms that were not shaped by David, extend back almost infinitely. ;)
But I care about the capital-A Alien, that's why I watch the capital-A Alien movie series and read their comics and novels and play their video games. :)
QuoteRemember when Alien3 killed the LAST KNOWN ALIEN CREATURE
That we know of.
Covenant potentially opens another Pandora's Box.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 30, 2021, 03:03:20 PM
Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Jan 30, 2021, 01:58:53 PM
To which I repeat - who cares about canon!?! Just make some cool movies. 8)
You must be new here.... ;)
If he's new here - then you yet to be born ;D
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 30, 2021, 03:03:20 PM
https://64.media.tumblr.com/24f5588c79271cdecdd7deeaa9efb73e/tumblr_mxeczz4Zk41sa11jco1_400.gif
That gif makes me want to throw up
Quote from: SM on Jan 31, 2021, 12:26:44 AM
QuoteRemember when Alien3 killed the LAST KNOWN ALIEN CREATURE
That we know of.
Covenant potentially opens another Pandora's Box.
Chillingly so.
Quote from: FenGiddel on Feb 07, 2021, 04:29:03 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 31, 2021, 12:26:44 AM
QuoteRemember when Alien3 killed the LAST KNOWN ALIEN CREATURE
That we know of.
Covenant potentially opens another Pandora's Box.
Chillingly so.
How does it do this?
Planet 4's got the crashed Juggernaut, dead city, more potential Neomorphs and the room full of Praetomorph Eggs Praetomorph Facehuggers residing within, in a cave underneath an abandoned lab full of the Pathogen?
Spoiler
And on LV-223 as last seen in Prometheus' still full of unknowns, but unfortunately we already have that used in the EU, until something higher priority comes along and undoes that nonsense.
"Chilling" as in the implications of what ol' David might get up to with so much 'meat'...
Like what?
Anything he likes.
Quote from: Trash Queen on Feb 08, 2021, 01:05:03 PM
Like what?
Turn half of 'em into eggs and half - into hosts for his precious children, of course
It's all in the execution but the idea alone's not that terrifying in of itself to me honestly.
It's not terrifying, it's kinky, according to olm8 Necro.
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Feb 08, 2021, 09:37:17 PM
It's not terrifying, it's kinky, according to olm8 Necro.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz3yawqWsU1qee7ixo2_250.gif)
Alien 3 and alien resurrection makes it clear all known encounters with xenomorphs stopped as ripley tookt he species out. but that means all known, we still have the derelight ship on lv 426 and then the planets we visited, we all just have to make sure those meetings between alien 3 and alien resurrection dont get any survivors or is secret and never revealed and it works.
Limiting but its doable and cant just ignore those movies and expanded material in my eyes :P Terminator franchise show how bad it goes if you start rewriting and ignoring movies and doing whatever xD
Not a fan of the xenomorphs being made by David in the last 20 years but I think someone named those to be plagiarist Internecivus raptus, Davids copy of the original, unknownst to him, which the novel and other material seem to indicate, which would leave the door open for david to be creator of xenos and them being ancients as the same time, some of the paper rolls in the covenant movie seem to indicate this, but the movie says david made them so depends on what one follow.
But im starting to think that what happened with star wars and what the rpg book writer said: the canon is up to each fan to make, or else disney will have to go in and make certain what is canon and what is legends like what they did to star wars and make it very clear.
Someday when I get the time I will write down my own head canon on the forum with pictures, time line etc and including as much as possible of all games, books, comics and movies and how it fits together in my head :P
Plagiarus Preapotens: The original Trilogy Alien.
Plagiarus Linesteres: The Praetomorph.
Whether one's related to the other's up for interpretation in my opinion.
Quote from: Trash Queen on Mar 25, 2021, 07:52:09 AM
Plagiarus Preapotens: The original Trilogy Alien.
Plagiarus Linesteres: The Praetomorph.
Whether one's related to the other's up for interpretation in my opinion.
Ahh thank you! :D
Quote from: Trash Queen on Mar 25, 2021, 07:52:09 AM
Plagiarus Preapotens: The original Trilogy Alien.
Plagiarus Linesteres: The Praetomorph.
Whether one's related to the other's up for interpretation in my opinion.
So we could say that
Plagiarus Linesteres is a recreation of the even older
Plagiarus Preapotens⁉
As far as the rpg is concerned it leaves it open to interpretation. It just makes it clear that the ones we see in Covenant aren't the same as the ones we see in any of the other movies (they're also classified as "Stalkers" as opposed to "Drones", "Warriors", "Runners" etc.).
But given that I'm one of those who dislikes the idea that David created the Alien period, that's the interpretation I like to go with, yes.
I like the idea, but I prefer the ambiguity over even that, and I appreciate the phenotype differentiation.