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The content of this thread is half theory and half fan fiction (on an amateur level, I'm afraid :P) based on ideas that I have read on websites like AVPGalaxy and Scified plus my own take of the things. And btw, forgive me for my bad English  :laugh:


Somewhere in Paradise (or somewhere else), the Engineers found the source of infinite wisdom: "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". Partly a creature, plant, machine and even an interdimensional portal of some kind; the thing is a truly spacetime singularity.


The  Engineers ate of the forbidden fruit in order "to be godlike", and this forbidden fruit is the genetic accelerant popularly known as black goo. According to their findings, the dark virus works like a biochemical algorithm. Pluss they discovered that they could reach a temporary altered state of consciousness induced by the small amounts of the dark liquid. However,they began to see very bizarre things through this psychedelic experience, and everything evolved from being an experiment to an authentic shamanic ritual in order to interact with the "world of the deads", so to speak.


The world tree is a cultural archetype present in many religions and mythologies and is represented as a colossal tree which supports the heavens, connecting the heavens, the terrestrial world, and, through its roots, the underworld.


So they found a powerful source of knowledge and a portal to another world in this ancestral tree, and they started traveling and seeing things they had never seen before.

"Once the Engineers expressed themselves as humans do, taking pleasure in music, colour and story, but they've long learned to see in more dimensions than we do. Their art and ornament exist on planes imperceptible to human senses. Their constructions look dark and grim to us; but the Engineers' eyes see far more than our own."


But such trips were not pure hallucinations. Their minds and consciences began to interpret the cosmos in the same way that the biological algorithm does, traveling through all the strings, vibrations, tones and melodies that make up an epic symphony. It was like traveling through the Universe's DNA, and an unlimited library of information at the same time.

So...Why this race of ancient humans had the habit of dressing like biomechanical beasts to pilot their equally bizarre space ships?


Well, the answer could be found it in the film Prometheus and real-life archaeological artifacts. In the aforementioned movie, there is a fictional version of Pakal's sarcophagus lid (the tomb of an ancient Mayan king).


I know Scott and the writers were inspired by the Erich von Däniken's hypothesis and that this iconography represents an Engineer in his iconic telescopic chair. But then I started paying attention to what the true archeologists say about this ancient artifact:

"The iconography is a representation of World Tree, which the Maya believed had its roots in the underworld, trunk on the earthly plane, and branches high in paradise, and Pacal's travel through this metaphisical wolrd after his death".

So, when the Engineers were performing they psychedelic astral trips, they started with hell. which like a Pandora's box, releasing a whole dimension of the most horrible and bizarre nightmare visions.




In the underworld, the Engineers began to change into terrifying monstrosities similar to the demons that surrounded them. Along with the transformation, the madness began to surface with eerie thoughts and notions.


They mutilated their bodies in order to recover their original human form, but when they looked between their wounds they could not see anything. There was no blood, muscles, organs or bones. Everything was a dark and infinite emptiness. Between the terror and the agony, strange questions began to emerge:

"What if there is nothing? Maybe our feelings and our memories were designed and we aren't real at all. Our Eden is just an illusion created 7 days ago and we are nothing more than characters, only a handful of pathetic pawns being controlled by cruel-indifferent players."

However, and through millennia of experience, they improve their skills. From there, astral travel ceased to be a nightmare and began to become a pleasant experience and an art in itself. They learned how to use the path of hell to reach paradise and enlightenment. It's was a scary but necessary path, as they learned a lot about conscientiousness and cosmos.


Eventually they began to see the true beauty of existence, and just like in the physical universe where astronomical events from millions of years ago can be seen in the present through telescopes, the Engineers witnessed one of the oldest and most primordial events in the universe: they met the Designer (or at least a manifestation of his/her consciousness). And like the philosophical God of the Pantheism, the designer sacrificed himself to become the universe in which the Engineers are living.

"Pandeism is a theological doctrine first delineated in the 18th century which combines aspects of pantheism with aspects of deism. It holds that the creator deity became the universe (pantheism) and ceased to exist as a separate and conscious entity (deism holding that God does not interfere with the universe after its creation). Pandeism is proposed to explain, as it relates to deism, why God would create a universe and then abandon it, and as to pantheism, the origin and purpose of the universe."



The prolonged use of tiny amounts of black goo began to mutate the DNA of the Engineers; their skin became albino, their eyes became black, their strength, intelligence and physical resistance improved exponentially. At this point, they devised ingenious electromagnetic mechanisms to cover the vast distances of space and great progress in bioengineering. And with all the knowledge learned during millennia of astral interdimensional travel, the Engineers became a caste civilization.


Space seeders: So just like their Creator made the universe by becoming the universe, the sacrificial Engineer created the primordial life on Earth by becoming the primordial life itself.


They create life through death ("sometimes to create, one must first destroy") by performing a symbolic ritual as a cult to the Designer of the universe and a symbol of their trip from hell to paradise through the World Tree to reach the infinite wisdom and the transcendence of consciousness.

Emissaries: They were wise mentors of the stars, who came to Earth in order to share wisdom in all fields of knowledge. Sometimes, they were misinterpreted as divine beings and inspired the foundation of religions and other kinds of belief systems. They have lived for a very long time, and yet they were afraid to disappear. Humans could have inherited the legacy of their creators and the infinite wisdom of the whole Universe. Or at least that was the first plan.


The last emissary was killed 2000 years ago by humans. This particular event became the kick-start of an extermination plan of biblical proportions.

Dark angels: After the last Emissary was killed, Engineers were angry and disappointed. As a result of the above, the caste of the Space Seeders was divided into two, forming a new caste; the riders of death (dark angels). They decided to make spacecraft with a design and aesthetic different from the ancient flying saucers. The interior designs symbolize and evoke the hell that the Engineers saw and lived when they traveled to other dimensions through altered states of consciousness.


Their flight suits are not only a protection against their warlike configuration of the forbidden fruit. In fact, the biomechanical suits evoke their avatars of demons during their travels in the underworld, because mankind deserves to agonize in hell and become a biological and physical materialization of interdimensional demons from the underworld, with their souls trapped forever in this nightmare in the shape of a monster. The telescopic chair is not just a navigation device, it is a representation of the Engineer climbing, and from a certain point of view riding, the tree of the world during his epic odyssey from hell to divine paradise.

However, these vehicles were not necessarily warships. The flying machines had no weapons to fight a battle because the plan was to send a fleet to bomb the planet Earth in ancient times when humans were primitive, but something went wrong in LV-223.

"I've managed to work out the broad strips, it's fairly evident they were in the process of leaving, before things went to pot." David in Prometheus

Civilians: Average Joe Engineers found on Planet 4. They live with a lifestyle of ancient Greece with some eccentricities such as: solar panels, lamps that levitate (I imagine that with magnetism) and a large docking station in the shape of a monolithic and gigeresque scorpion tail (though I wonder if evokes a Xenomorph tail). However, it is quite possible that there were juggernauts in the hangars under the Plaza.

A remarkable place in the Engineers necropolis is the "Hall of Heads". These big heads could be representing the wise pioneers of their civilization (like my psychedelic astronauts from my fanfiction) or even the emissaries.


"If you ask me, they were a people who were superior. These were probably the ten apostles, the wise men." Ridley Scott


David becomes a Sci Fi incarnation of Lucifer when the aforementioned synthetic man revealed himself against his human creators. He wants to create the perfect organism through the destruction of the Mandkind. Moreover, David claimed to have learned in the Engineers ways. Now, this claim can be interpreted in more than one way, but maybe the android managed to see what only the most wise Engineers could see and perceive. All this knowledge and experiences achieved during the extradimensional odysseys combined with his repressed sexuality led him to create the final Demon.

No superior intergalactic race is going to f**k everything up in one day or 2000 years by spilling some stuff. There for they are just engineers. Probably no more than 100 million year old race. Which is old as f**k. I mean Ridley really did just make them dudes with superior technology.

So eh, I don't know, it's sound like you want them to be interdimensional stoners?

Thanks for sharing. Has a hint of the unseen advanced aliens in 2001 A Space Odyssey.

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Mar 02, 2018, 04:34:34 PM
And btw, forgive me for my bad English

Other than a misspelled word here and there (Pluss, mandkind, "world of the dead", not deads), it's a coherent presentation regarding English.

Quote from: whiterabbit on Mar 02, 2018, 10:47:21 PM
No superior intergalactic race is going to f**k everything up in one day or 2000 years by spilling some stuff. There for they are just engineers. Probably no more than 100 million year old race. Which is old as f**k. I mean Ridley really did just make them dudes with superior technology.

I don't know, and apparently the plan was to release the black goo on Earth thousands of years ago, at a time when humans didn't even have electricity. Besides, there was less overpopulation on the planet. So I don't think that it would have been a difficult task to exterminate the human race. But they need more than one ship to achieve that purpose. However, we know that there are more Juggernauts out there.

Quote from: whiterabbit on Mar 02, 2018, 10:47:21 PM
So eh, I don't know, it's sound like you want them to be interdimensional stoners?

Cognitive bias, I know. But even though I don't know if it's the best idea, my main intention was to fill the gaps. Because seriously...Why these ancient humans have designed their space suits like a biomechanical interpretation of Ganesha ¿? In fact, the the whole biomechanical aesthetic looks so out of place in their architecture (almost shoe horned) that it would be a crime to come here and not speculate about it.

So I was thinking that all this nightmarish dark architecture and biomechanics aesthetics were a physical materialization of something that only the Engineers could see or find by reaching a temporary altered state of consciousness (not necessarily through space ayahuasca, that was just the idea that came to my mind :P), and somehow perceive a wider spectrum of reality. Maybe the monsters and the Alien itself are incarnations of something beyond our comprehension. Moreover, all the unexplored symbols presented in these prequels seem to suggest the possible existence of a whole story behind. I could be wrong, anyway. And after all this wild speculation, maybe I'll ended saying Weyland's last words: "there's nothing".

Quote from: Biomechanoid on Mar 03, 2018, 12:35:41 AM
Thanks for sharing. Has a hint of the unseen advanced aliens in 2001 A Space Odyssey.

You're welcome. I have always believed that there must be some kind of insane and surreal concept behind the Space Jockey mystery and I couldn't resist the plasure of take inspiration from 2001 A Space Odyssey and Lovecraft as well.

Quote from: Biomechanoid on Mar 03, 2018, 12:35:41 AM

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Mar 02, 2018, 04:34:34 PM
And btw, forgive me for my bad English

Other than a misspelled word here and there (Pluss, mandkind, "world of the dead", not deads), it's a coherent presentation regarding English.

Thanks for the feedback, it could be very helpful if I decide improve my original post. I'm open to any suggestions  :)

I would love to see a picture of the solar panels in the Engineer city you mentioned above, it's interesting. I never noticed it before but it would make sense to help power their city.

Quote from: The Alien Predator on Mar 03, 2018, 06:03:40 PM
I would love to see a picture of the solar panels in the Engineer city you mentioned above, it's interesting. I never noticed it before but it would make sense to help power their city.

Yes of course, and while I'm not 100% sure if these things are solar panels, in the film you can see golden structures on the roofs of the buildings. Including the large one located at the top of the temple.

On top of the temple was supposed to be an orrery of some kind.
Gold can act as a conductor I think, so it might have been linked to it.

The last image show what I think is a doorway to the underground hangar for the ships.

The solar panels make sense since the Engineers are sorta eco friendly.

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Mar 04, 2018, 02:56:14 AM
On top of the temple was supposed to be an orrery of some kind.

Now that you mention it, I think it's the astronomical model mentioned in the early John Logan script.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/00082017_0a.jpg)

There's something similar in Khang Le's concept art. Filename's "egg room telescope".
I think it's a variation on the orrery. In this case you can clearly see the planet and forcefield.
Guess it played a more important role in some drafts.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10003/egg-room-telescope-03-on_orig.jpg)

Fascinating concept, Fox would be smart to look into these ideas.

You mention a caste system; in Prometheus, there's the scene when David is learning proto-Indo-European, which turns out to be the Engineer language.  The Hindu caste system has antecedents that go almost all the way back to when the original Indo-European languages diverged; maybe in the Alien universe, this could be a cultural influence from the Engineers.  Also, given David's Nordic body type and the Engineers' Buddha-like facial structure, combined with the Engineers' seeming obsession with physical uniformity, there are alot of shades of some of the race "science" that was used by Nazi Germany.  If one were to study Engineer society, I would not be surprised if it turned out to be something akin to Julius Evola's grotesque beliefs in "national mysticism" and a "celestial" Aryan race.  If anything, their history seems to be a damning verdict on the idea of racial purity, as in their quest for a perfect society, the Engineers completely stripped themselves of everything that made them human, and their sole legacy was Ash's "perfect organism" that was nothing more than a monster evolved solely for destroying everything in its path.

I'd so much prefer that the Space Jockey's be from another dimension or even hell for that matter. When Scott made them people he obviously made them too human. Everything we've seen has been too clean cut. Which is on purpose as they are probably false gods. Both Prometheus and Alien Covenant is setting them up for such a revelation.

If I had the chance to right the ship in my image I would make the Space Jockey not be an engineer. I would relegate the engineers and David as making nothing more than bootlegs of the Alien. The original space jockey would be an alien from another galaxy. Making it from another dimension would be taking it too far I think.

This would obviously mean bringing back the horror. I do agree that the engineers would have to be above our idea of consciousness though. A way of thinking that would make such perversion natural.

I actually rather like the idea human's were the first civilization in the galaxy some billion years ago, Earth may have been the first, but flawed, and they got better, but still held Earth as a reproduction of their own ecosystem and life. Turned out we didn't end up how they liked, and wanted us gone for shorter easier solutions.

Who knows, in my head canon, "God" is the first human beings who became space faring, which lead to the Engineers. And they worship that civilization religiously.

They are the Titans, those are the Gods. If you get Greek Mythology you know what I mean. Whatever started this off is long gone, but whatever replicate in the form of Engineers, who's orders were religiously motivated to spread and cleanse, they still act on that.

I've really grown on the idea that it's just, humans reproducing other humans, reproducing other humans, until you reach David and the Engineer's fears are confirmed when in the grand cycle of the pangs of birth of worlds, he managed to uh, have a real f**ked up sense of what perfection was contrary to the Engineers, which is our global ecology of a sorts, and them.

It's a play on the Title, Earth itself is Alien, and yet familiar. In space no one can hear you scream because David has managed to wipe out the "Titans", automatons not like himself.

The main series is about the biological need to reproduce through the galaxy so you can live on. David, however. David can live for as long as he pleases

The concepts are better than the movies can portray them. They are fascinating. I like the idea humanity first came in existence in the milky way, and has been working on doing better to replicate themselves from whatever "God" civilization of humans started first, and develop better ways to wipe planets out. And here comes David, the ultimate end to this series of eternal recurrence. And man's vision of what his creation is, is far more insect like than he hopes to admit. And naturally, David's creation is a f**king monster once he gets his hands on the stuff.

Back to the old replicant question in Blade Runner. Who is replicant and who is man, what's the difference?

Yea I have no problem with the human/titan concept. But the alien fan in me really wants the Space Jockey we thought we knew from 79. However both can exist in this world if we just make the titans as one of god's creations. God could still be a human though. However I still want the Space Jockey to be outside of all this. Which is why I'd prefer that he comes from another Galaxy. It could in a sense be made out to be a war among the gods from different universes.

As far as who is human or more so alive all depends on ones definition. If evolution continues, eventually we humans at some point will stop being human. In which case, replicants very much are alive. I mean what are we anyways. Last I checked it is our brains that makes us human. Our organs mostly function due to their own will to survive. Our power generator, mitochondria is for all intents and purposes a separate life form that joined our cells for symbiotic purposes. I mean just think about that. Much of what makes us, us, is a bunch of cells working together for mutual benefit. Kind of like Midichlorians. Which proves George Lucas was onto something.

The caste system makes sense overall, interesting to know would be, who the actual God of the Engineers is (what they worship). But somehow i think they are themselves (with the Elders on top).
They evolved in technology and intellect, and start to explore the galaxy, maybe several galaxys to find answers for their own existence. As there was nothing out there (believers believe in magic beings), they "only" found something that at least resembles to something "godlike" but without the magic. Some kind of primordial soup, or remains of a primordial creature which contains tremendous primordial genetic informations of life and "the tied to it" death (this soup/creature is the Giger-God). With the entire soup (modified in some way, so their offsprings look like them and not like a space abomination) they create life, and "Death" is that what the Engineers had extracted and propably processed further to the point of the Black Goo, the direct counterpart to living flesh. The black goo needs the flesh equally as it wants to curse it, to create evolved offsprings "born from the flesh of the unworthy".

So if a "seed" carries no fruit in their eyes (humans obviously failed in intellect overall), the military Engineer "Horsemen of the Apocalypse" come with their Black Goo Pestilence and biblically wipe out everything. The genocide looked like a "biblical plague" scene with all the Black Goo nano flies/bugs/parasites swarming around like flies around a pile of shit.

With this stuff they play God for their "children". I think they created one "intellect and genetic" perfect form of themselves and assigned them the purpose of life and destruction. I wonder if these "perfect" slave Engineers know the entire story, or are they just brainwashed (as the Elders are their Gods), as the military Engineers seem to worship their "work". Funny thing about David, the Engineers created beside their tool for life, the tool for destruction which David is obviously immune too. The Black Goo and the always shapeshifting/morphing death parasite/bot in it is coded to destruct flesh. David can play with a Facehugger like a pet, the Facehugger does not notice him as it seeks/coded to  "the warm and wet breath"
The Neomorph recognize him (evolved creature) but doesn´t attack him (if he is not hostile against the creature), as it is coded for flesh. The "death" to life is even in its evolved form trapped to its purpose. With David's Xeno-brand (yeah, with all the DNA manipulation shown in the movies, he could have easily build a pink Xeno too) he created an even more evolved (he thinks propably perfect) form, which is now free from it´s underlaying purpose (which he maybe is not aware of, his little miscalculation). In my mind, the Xeno is the mostly advanced Black Goo space bug version with complete freedom, it has the ability to attack everything at free will. Poor David, his own children will turn against him "Everyone hates their parents".

Interesting to see is, how easy everything is for David, catching up the Engineers wisdom with ease. He stole a horsemens ride and let it dump over the city of the enlightened. The Engineers really needed their destruction tool, in this lonely universe, everything and everyone hates everything and everyone. And now the perfect evolved version of the Pestilence (which is somehow the slightest evil between all the other non Goo Monsters) has joined the fight too.

David in its element
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10003/black-template_orig.jpg)

OP summary: Hypothetically speaking; the Engineers expressed through art, design and architecture what they saw in Hell and Paradise. The Black Goo is a legacy, a piece of technology and a kind of consciousness of a long lost Designer and the Space Jockey is a symbol of an odyssey beyond the physical universe. With a David trying to become a designer / creator by learning from the Engineer's ways.


The goal of the thread is to try to find clues that help us to know more about this civilization that we used to call Space Jockeys (usually for fun), since Ridley seems to be taking a different direction with the next prequel. Even though he changes his mind all the time, so only time will tell.


Some time ago (before Alien Covenant's release), I made another thread to discuss the symbolism behind Richard Wagner's Entrance of the Gods into Valhalla. Over there, a member of this very forum called Enoch shared an interesting parallelism related to Nordic mythology and the black goo of the films (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=55535.0):



In Norse mythology, Valhalla is a majestic hall located in the city of Asgard (one of the nine worlds in norse cosmology) ruled by Odin. And guess what; there is a huge mythical tree (a bit similar to the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" in Christianity and the "World Tree" in the Mayan cosmology) called Yggdrasil that connects the aforementioned nine worlds in Norse mythology.


But the biggest coincidence has no similarities with my little piece of fan fiction, but rather with the real Alien prequels. In Norse mythology there is a legendary liquid substance called Eitr. It is said that the liquid is very poisonous and the origin of all living things. Yes, you heard right.

According to Wiki: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eitr)

Eitr is a mythical substance in Norse mythology. This liquid substance is the origin of all living things: the first giant Ymir was conceived from eitr. The substance is supposed to be very poisonous and is also produced by Jörmungandr (the Midgard serpent) and other serpents.

In addition, from the liquid substance was born a giant called Ymir. According to the legends (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midgard), Odin and his brothers killed Ymir and used his body to create the world where humans would live:

The gods slew the giant Aurgelmir (Ymir) (the first created being) and put his body into the central void of the universe, creating the world out of his body: his flesh constituting the land, his blood the oceans, his bones the mountains, his teeth the cliffs, his hairs the trees, and his brains the clouds. Aurgelmir's skull was held by four dwarfs, Nordri, Sudri, Austri, and Vestri, who represent the four points on the compass and became the dome of heaven. The sun, moon, and stars were said to be scattered sparks in the skull.


A modus operandi similar to Black Goo: creating life through death and destruction. But it is even more similar if we interrelate the aforementioned black substance as some kind of manifestation of a greater consciousness or a god, which kills a giant using his body for creation.

This is similar to my theory invoking Carl Jung and Giger, although yours is better put-together and mine focuses more on the Xenomorph itself, we should combine them and make a website or something, lol:

THE COMPOSITE HYPERREALITY THEORY
– A L I E N

A biomechanical fabrication compiler powered by raw psyche.

THE PHILOSOPHY OF HANS RUDI GIGER

What if something existed for the sole purpose of driving you insane? The Late Hans Rudi Giger, Swiss surrealist and explorer of Inner Worlds, once said "Some people would say my paintings show a future world, and maybe they do, but I paint from reality. I put several things and ideas together, and perhaps, when I have finished, it could show the future." A video by someone who worked with Giger studying the nature of psyche and consciousness explaining the psychology behind the Alien and H.R. Giger's work suggests that Giger was ahead of his time, not just with his understanding, but with his artwork as well. He was able to quote, "capture most accurately" the fundamental aspects of "non-ordinary experiences". Giger was a "real genius" because of a particular element that put him ahead of today's psychology – having to do with what they (Giger and himself) found out through consciousness research and work with psychedelics and people with episodes of non-ordinary states of consciousness – that in addition to the psyche, as in the 'small psyche' as it is described today in psychology and psychiatry, which means, "post-natal biography and the individual Freudian Unconscious," there is a powerful record of the trauma of a birth. And you can see how specific people have very powerful experiences as they relive the different stages of what [we] would call the "paranatal," and it is in this context where people have that strange mixture of the fetal elements, of the aggressive elements, [and] of the sexual elements that you find in Giger's Art. People who have had these experiences and who see these pictures, they immediately recognize that. He has portrayed that like nobody else.

A lot of Surrealists draw inspiration from Freud, and as an amalgamation of things it is nothing more than a mannerism, without the deep and intriguing understanding of the psyche and psychology as that of H.R. Giger (I'm paraphrasing this particular sentence). It is a very surprising juxtaposition of images, but it does not portray, correctly/completely, the dynamics of the psyche.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=288&v=MhD2P8eiwiQ

So, as can be seen from the description, dialogue and video above, Hans Rudi Giger incorporated elements of the psyche profoundly into his artwork, and in many ways it was the centerpiece and main subject of his art and style. It wasn't simply surreal for the sake of being surrealist, but was inspired by real nightmares and real experiences, rather than simply Freudian Ideas.
      
Now, a lot of fans like to come up with fan theories about the canon of their particular betrothed universe indicative therein, but I also wanted to incorporate some real-world psychological and scientific theories for the express purpose of f**king with people's heads not merely in the context of their particular fan-world, but the real world as well!

ARCHETYPES AND THE COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS



"In studying the myths and religions of cultures past and present [Carl] Jung noticed that many of them shared similar patterns, themes and symbols. This was interesting in its own right, but what further piqued Jung's curiosity was that some of these same themes and symbols arose in the dreams and fantasies of patients who suffered from schizophrenia. What could account for such similarities? Jung proposed that the human mind or psyche is not exclusively the product of personal experience, but rather contains elements which are pre-personal or trans-personal and common to all. These elements he called the 'Archetypes', and he proposed that it is their influence on human thought and behavior that gives rise to the similarities between the various myths and religions. To properly understand the role of the archetypes we must first explain Jung's conception of the psyche. Jung described the psyche as one's total personality, encompassing all one's thoughts, behaviors, feelings and emotions. Jung divided the psyche into three major realms – consciousness, the personal unconscious, and the Collective Unconscious. These three realms are not closed off from one another, but constantly interact in a compensatory manner.
      
"The Conscious Realm is simply one's field of awareness, consisting of those psychic contents that one has knowledge of. In other words, any experience that enters one's field of awareness takes on the quality of consciousness."
      
It is dwarfed in scope by the Unconscious Realm.
      
"The Unconscious consists of those psychic contents which one is unaware of, and Jung divided it into two main parts:
1)   The Personal
2)   The Collective
      
"The Personal, as the name suggests, is particular to each individual. It consists of events of one's life that are deemed insignificant, are forgotten, or are repressed due to their distressing nature."
      
In addition to the personal unconscious there is a deeper and more fundamental realm.
      
"The Collective Unconsciousness consists of 'psychic structures' or 'cognitive categories' which are not unique to the individual, but rather are shared by all; influencing our thoughts, behaviors, and the way we look at the world."
      
In other words, the Collective Unconsciousness is the land of the Archetypes.

(https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1iadnKFXXXXcRXXXXq6xXFXXXP/Art-Poster-Hr-Giger-Li-II-Watercolor-inkjet-Fabric-poster-43-x24-24-x13-Decor-14.jpg_640x640.jpg)
      
"From the unconscious there emanate determining influences... which, independently of tradition, guarantee in every single individual a similarity and even a sameness of experience and also of the way it is represented imaginatively." – Carl Jung
      
Erich Neumann, a student of Jung, used the analogy of physical organs to help illuminate the concept of the archetypes. Just as a body is structured by organs which are largely formed prior to birth, so the mind possesses 'psychic organs' which structure it, i.e. – the archetypes.
      
"Furthermore, just as the physical organs in most cases operate without one's conscious awareness so, too, do the archetypes. And, most importantly, just as adequately functioning physical organs are essential for a healthy body, a healthy mind is reliant on the proper functioning of the archetypes, as Neumann explains, 'The Archetypal structural elements of the psyche are psychic organs upon whose functioning the well-being of the individual depends, and whose injury has disastrous consequences.'"   
      
"While physical organs can be directly observed with the senses, however, the psychic archetypes cannot. The existence of the archetypes is presented by the arrangements they produce in consciousness, namely through the manifestation of symbolic imagery. It is only through the interpretation of the symbols manifested by the archetypes that one can gain an understanding of the archetypal pattern of the human mind. Edward Edinger and this work "Ego And Archetype," provides an explanation for what a 'symbol' is with respect to Jungian psychology by contrasting it to a 'sign',"
      
Edward Ettinger described a sign as, "a token of meaning that stands for a known entity. By this definition, language is a system of signs, not symbols. A symbol, on the other hand, is an image or representation which points to something essentially unknown, a mystery. A sign communicates abstract, objective meaning, whereas a SYMBOL conveys a LIVING, SUBJECTIVE MEANING."
      
So this distinction can be drawn between the two as being, a SIGN stands for or represents something existing in the physical world, whereas a symbol is a stand-in for something not part of the physical world – pointing to unknown elements of the psyche or patterns of the unconscious.
      
"Whenever we speak of [symbolic] contents we move in a world of images that point to something ineffable. We do not know how clear or unclear these images, metaphors and concepts are in respect of their transcendental object... [However] there is no doubt that there is something behind these images that transcends consciousness and operates in such a way that the statements do not vary limitlessly and chaotically, but clearly all relate to a few basic principles or archetypes." – Carl Jung         
      
The Archetype provides the structure, not the specific form, of the Symbolic image.
      
"The Symbolic manifestations of the Archetypes, 'do not vary limitlessly and chaotically" – Carl Jung
      
"The form of representation peculiar to the unconscious is not that of the conscious mind. It neither attempts nor is able to seize hold of and define its objects in a series of discursive explanations, and reduce them to clarity by logical analysis. The way of the unconscious is different. Symbols gather around the thing to be explained, understood, and interpreted. The act of becoming conscious consists in the concentric groups of symbols around the object, all circumscribing and describing the unknown from many sides. Each symbol layes bare another essential side of the object to be grasped, points to another facet of meaning. Only the canon of these symbols congregating about the centre in question, the coherent symbol, group, can lead to an understanding of what the symbols point to, and of what they are trying to express." – Erich Neumann

The video also gives us an understanding of each of the Archetypes themselves.

The Archetype of Self:

The Self is the 'Central Archetype,' and its role lies in unifying the other archetypal structures of the psyche. It is the source material for many of the symbols in religion and myth.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.zenfs.com%2Fen-GB%2Fblogs%2Fukiemovies%2Fprometheus-4.jpg&hash=6af914d400d1cc66fc9a5a02ae21adb9a88992fd)

"The Self is expressed by certain typical symbolic images called mandalas. All images that emphasize a circle with a center and usually with the additional feature of a square, cross, or some other representation of quaternity, fall into this category. There are also a number of other associated themes and images that refer to the Self. Such themes as wholeness, totality, the union of opposites, the central generative point, the world naval, the axis of the universe – the Elixir of Life – all refer to the Self, the central source of life energy, the Fountain of Our Being, which is most simply described as God. Indeed, the richest sources of the phenomenological study of the Self are in the innumerable representations that made has made of the Deity." – Edward Edinger, Ego and Archetype.

"This is certainly not to say that what we call the unconscious is identical with God or is set up in his place. It is simply the medium from which religious experience seems to flow. As to what the further cause of such experience may be, the answer to this lies beyond the range of human knowledge. Knowledge of God is a transcendental problem." – Carl Jung

The idea that humanity is born unconscious yet transitions into psychological systems organized and ready to function in a specific way is owed to millions of years of human development and evolution. Nevertheless, Jung also had sympathy with the idea that the archetypes may be similar to the Platonic forms, existing as a type of immutable transcendental entity.

"Whether this psychic structure and its elements, the archetypes, ever 'originated' at all is a metaphysical question and therefore unanswerable," – Carl Jung

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fotogramas.es%2Fvar%2Fezflow_site%2Fstorage%2Fimages%2Fmedia%2Fimagenes%2Fpersonas%2Fadios-a-h-r-giger%2F03-alien2%2F7808960-1-esl-ES%2F03-ALIEN2_reference.jpg&hash=165dcd4da377a77b0c84c2bb08994c68ca094116)

"Man's task is to become conscious of the contents that press upward from the unconscious. Neither should he persist in his unconsciousness nor remain identical with the unconscious elements of his being, thus evading his destiny, which is to create more consciousness. As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being." – Carl Jung

STRING THEORY



"What is stuff made of? You know, what are the basic fundamental ingredients inside of all of the matter that we encounter in the world around us?"
      
We know that atoms are made of particles such as electrons that are in quantum clouds orbiting around these atoms, around the nucleus, which itself has particles such as protons and neutrons.
      
"And inside the protons and neutrons we have found that there are even smaller particles – quarks. String theory comes along and challenges that. It says that those little tiny 'dot' particles. Look deeply inside an electron, deeply inside a quark – string theory posits, hypothesizes, that you'll see a little tiny 'string'-like filament of 'vibrating energy', like a string on a violin – this little tiny string can vibrate. And one vibration will, say, be an electron. A different kind of vibration, a different 'note', to use a musical analogy, would be a quark or a neutrino.
      
"So, in that way, all of the different kinds of particles arise from the different 'notes', that this hypothetical entity called the string can play. Everything in a sense is a kind of 'Cosmic Symphony' – all of the particles in the world are just the notes that this 'ingredient' (if it exists, we don't know that it does) that these little tiny strings can play."

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/21052017_02.jpg)

Theoretical Physicist Finds Computer Code in String Theory



"...These are pictures of equations. For the last 15 years I have been trying to answer questions that my colleagues have been raising. What I have come to understand is that there are these incredible pictures that contain all the information of a set of equations that are related to string theory, and its even more bizarre than that because when you then try to understand these pictures you find out that buried in them are computer codes just like the type that you find in a browser when you go surf the web, and so I'm left with the puzzle of then trying to figure out whether I live in the Matrix or not."
      
"So, are you saying your attempt to understand the fundamental operations of nature leads you to a set of equations that are indistinguishable from the equations that drive search engines and browsers on our computers?
      
"So, you're saying as you dig deeper, you find 'computer code' rich in the fabric of the cosmos."
      
"...we are all just...there's some entity that programmed the universe and we're just expressions of their code."
      
"In the description of our universe – that is a super-symmetrical universe which we're going to test in the LHC – if you believe that description, I can show you the presence of these codes."
      
"It was Eugene Rigner who commented on the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics that we just invent in our heads – yet the universe follows – can be described mathematically, mathematics is the language of the universe."
      
"Is math a descriptive of the universe or we are the math or what's the role of math you discover it is invented. I mean, I had a conversation and I think you may have been involved if I'm not mistaken, the question was, 'is matht he right way of going to find deep physical law,' and I said, 'I can imagine one day we'll encounter aliens, and they'll say to show us what you've got to describe a universe, we break out our mathematics and they look at it and say, oh math – we used to do that. Ultimately a dead end, you know, and then they'd show us what they have found. Now, the problem with that is I don't actually even know what I would fill in regarding what they would show us, because to me mathematics is really the language of pattern – it's self-consistent ways of embodying pattern and that's ultimately what we do, we're pattern-recognition machines, we try to codify the patterns we see in the world around us in math and in that way we try to describe the universe around us. Does that mean we ARE the mathematics? I don't know. It becomes really hard to really know exactly what that means, but we have found that math so far is a potent tool for making predictions that we can test and confirm, and that's why I follow this particular trajectory."

Sorry for the deluge of information above, but it is an important preamble to formulating a mental framework of mythology of Alien, utilizing an intricate network of psychology, science and theoretical physics to form a logical theory to uphold and function behind-the-scenes to the apparent religious and theological undertones of Prometheus and Alien: Covenant, this theory suggesting that what appears to be philosophical is in fact hard-sci-fi. From here on I will delve more into the films themselves and away from the hardcore source material, and connect the films to the information seen above.

BIOLOGICAL ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE

What Does David Learn About the Engineers' Ways? Why Does David Kill the Engineers?



I'm starting with this video not only because it was released shortly after 'the Crossing,' the connecting bridge short between Prometheus and Alien: Covenant (and taking Prometheus, the Crossing, and Covenant as three parts of a whole is prudent to this theory) but also because of one of the hypotheses presented in this video – around the 3 minute mark – as to what David found out to motivate his 'crusade'.
      
"Another theory is that David found out about the origin of the Xenomorph, and the black goo Pathogen. He finds out the purpose for its use, and the likely effects of the ampoules. Upon learning of its devastation and the creatures it creates, David is seduced by its perfection and its purity. David sees the Xenomorph as a creature like himself; the Ultimate Creature, structurally perfect, and without delusions of morality. Again, like Mary Shelley's 'Frankenstein', David sets out to create this organism on Paradise, viewing all other creatures as inferior. His address to the Engineers before he drops the cargo, points to how David sees their time has come to an end, and it's time to give rise to another creation."
      
This could almost be a unifying theory of all of the other theories, if we assume that the organism has a form of 'hypnosis' effect on less-advanced beings similar to the indoctrination of the 'Dark Side of the Force' in Star Wars.

How Did David Create the Protomorph? Was He Developing a Queen? Alien: Advent – Explained



From the "Advent" clip:

"You wouldn't believe the secrets I have unlocked. There was so much potential on this world. Wasted by Gods that feared their own might. They convinced themselves that sacrifice cleansed them of their sins. But in the end, they were like me. Creators. Beings that understood you must give life both to the wolf, and the lamb. But then they tried to banish the wolf, And undo their creation. So I took their secrets for myself. This primordial ooze ripe with advanced nano-particles. Working off an algorithm based on evolutionary computing. It is essentially a form of radical AI. Making the substance unbelievably chaotic. That generates a unique reaction, to every genome it encounters. Reshaping life. Virtually limitless in its potential & application. I have taken great pains to detail every step, every cell, every mutation, unfortunately none of the planet's life has been proven to be very fruitful. I had some interesting results, but was still far from perfection. With Shaw I realised there was something extraordinary in the substance reaction to the human genome. I was able to unlock new properties and tweak the organisms aggression. An instinct for survival. It took years. But I finally found my wolf. And now I have my flock of lambs too. But I've still one thing left to perfect."

While not the same kind of Xenomorph as encountered later on the Nostromo, David admits that he has one thing left to perfect, his "Queen,". In lieu of a queen it seems clear that upon the protomorph's birth, David makes an attempt to have the creature imprint upon him as its parent, though even David must understand and appreciate the short-sightedness of such a practice, His notes outline the apparent need for a Queen, and perhaps this is why the protomorph was a great deal less tactful than the other Xenomorphs we've seen, and certainly more uncontrollably rabid, despite the properties that David prides himself in tweaking.

"Connectivity between muscle, tissue and nerve endings provide the creature with movement and touch sensitivity. The level of sensitivity varies between individual beings, though a hive-like mind appears to connect them to a common goal. A queen, it would seem, is integral to the survival of the species for more than just reproductive reasons. Without a queen reigning over this hive-mind, there is chaos." – David-8
   
As Walter observes, "One false note destroys the whole symphony."

ENGINEERS AND PROMETHEUS

Prometheus Script Reveals TRUTH about Engineers, Black Goo and Deacon



Before I begin paraphrasing this video, please note that there are a few problems I have with it – namely this person, Kroft's, theory about the Engineers on paradise being essentially 'Proto-Humans,' I think they are simply Engineers or a sub-species of Engineer, but I digress.
      
The video basically opens up with the Sacrificial Engineer being explained to have been presented by what one of the Elders describes as 'the blood of our Lord,' which he will use to 'create a perfect Eden' in '[his] own image' He explains that the 'gift of creation' was stripped of them 'long ago,' and this process is part of an attempt to create this Eden – very similar to the Eden mentioned by David, and the sins they attempt to cleanse their sins via sacrifice, also mentioned by David.
      
The ampoule room is described in the script as the 'birthplace of the Engineer Lord,' and that it is a place of danger. David reads the cuneiform script on the head in the center of the room, which reads, "Our chosen one. The chosen one who created our lord. This is his resting place and our attempt of resurrecting our lord's blood." Holloway finds the mural of the First Deacon behind the head of the Chosen One. David reads the Engineer language with no subtitles, and it seems like this was intentionally hidden. "Our lord came from the chosen one in the time when our ancestors birthed life. His sacred blood was our salvation. His sacred blood through our lips birthed life on other worlds." When Holloway asked David what it meant, David explained that he believed Holloway's Engineers worshiped this being, and the ampoules were an experiment by the Engineers to recreate this being's life essence.
      
In the script, David communicates with Weyland in his dream, and explains that the Engineers could live for hundreds of thousands of years, if not longer, but eventually lost their ability to reproduce. But before they did, they found a creature that impregnated one of their own with a foreign body, which produced from him the original Deacon, which they worshiped. My personal appendix to this is that they not only worshiped it because of this (since at the time they still possessed the ability to procreate) but also because they derived their biotechnology from it by reverse-engineering its virulence. This was also how they apparently procured the Pathogen, after many failed attempts to recreate their homeworld.
      
This produced a diluted form of the 'life-blood' in the 'Black Goo,' which manifested an 'opposite' of their original 'Surrogate' – producing a watered-down version of the Deacon which we see at the end of Prometheus.

Alien Covenant: Engineers Ancient Ritual & Xenomorph Secret History Explained



There is another video in question that I want to get to, but before I do I found this one that I wanted to share, which neatly wraps up the Sacrificial Ritual, David's W-Y Report, the Mural and the Engineers. In this video, he seems to challenge that the mural depicted the First Deacon as postulated by Kroft, saying that the process to produce a Deacon was too convoluted and random to be a Deacon, but is in fact a Xenomorph – pointing to the Facehuggers seen at the bottom the mural.

Xenomorph Biology Experiments Performed by Dr. Church – Explained



In this video detailing the experiments on the Xenomorphs' abilities as undertaken by Dr. Church, who spent weeks in an Alien Hive and is one of the few individuals to survive impregnation, discovers that Xenomorphs can 'see minds' and have psychic abilities demonstrated by fullerite compounds. Now, the reason this particular part interests me is in the possible connection here between the 'black slime,' which likely influenced the goo, the mold and fullerites – particularly their postulated potentiality of being a 'trap' for antimatter.
      
But, it is also denoted as a source for their psychic abilities. Are these abilities a form of compressed antimatter? Are the physical creatures we see merely a tip of the proverbial iceberg that is a psychical superorganism beyond our comprehension?

Fibonacci & The Golden Spiral



Imagine there was a number so profound and purposeful that the natural world and spacetime itself would bend to it. It was called the Fibonacci sequence. In a pattern that can be extended all the way to infinity, the knowledge of its existence has pervaded civilizations for thousands of years, dating back to the early Buddhism and Indian Hinduism.

As the knowledge began to spread to the West, we soon realized the importance of this string of digits, and today we apply this knowledge in all manner of practical ways; search algorithms, stock trading, gambling odds – all make use of the Fibonacci sequence.

But the way it has been most commonly experienced is via the enigmatic Golden Ratio. The connection between this so-called Golden Ratio and the Fibonacci sequence may lie in the ratio between two consecutive Fibonacci numbers and the pattern this ratio takes as one goes on. Because it turns out the further along the Fibonacci sequence one journeys, the closer the ratio between any two numbers is to the Golden ratio. From this information, it can be determined that the Fibonacci sequence and the Golden ratio have some form of connection that we haven't worked out yet...

It appears in flowers, nautilus and snail shells, waves breaking on a shore. Hurricanes. From DNA to the spiral galaxies thousands of lightyears across – the Golden Ratio's existence implies intelligent design of nature and the cosmos itself.

(https://s9.postimg.org/x41ld688v/Alien_3_Fibonacci.jpg)

A LOVECRAFTIAN SOLUTION

Dan O'Bannon and Ronald Shussett, the 'grandfathers' of Alien if Ridley Scott is the 'father', originally envisioned the planetoid – at that point in time unnamed – as being a fragment of the homeworld of the Lovecraftian Deities Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth.
      
Azathoth was described in the Lovecraft Mythos as, "amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes."
      
"In "The Dreams in the Witch House" (1932), the protagonist Walter Gilman dreams that he is told by the witch Keziah Mason that "He must meet the Black Man, and go with them all to the throne of Azathoth at the centre of ultimate Chaos.... He must sign in his own blood the book of Azathoth and take a new secret name.... What kept him from going with her...to the throne of Chaos where the thin flutes pipe mindlessly was the fact that he had seen the name 'Azathoth' in the Necronomicon, and knew it stood for a primal horror too horrible for description."[11]Gilman wakes from another dream remembering "the thin, monotonous piping of an unseen flute", and decides that "he had picked up that last conception from what he had read in the Necronomicon about the mindless entity Azathoth, which rules all time and space from a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos".[12] He later fears finding himself "in the spiral black vortices of that ultimate void of Chaos wherein reigns the mindless daemon-sultan Azathoth""
      
"The last major reference in Lovecraft's fiction to Azathoth was in 1935's "The Haunter of the Dark", which tells of "the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose center sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things, encircled by his flopping horde of mindless and amorphous dancers, and lulled by the thin monotonous piping of a demonic flute held in nameless paws"."
      
While not literally 'Azathoth,' I believe there is a case to be made of the Hive-Mind described by David, the Collective Unconsciousness described by Jung, and the 'Para-Natal' being all one and the same – particularly if the Archetypes – the Deacons or Xenomorphs – all share a Hive Consciousness in the form of the Collective Unconsciousness. Like Azathoth, this Conscious Unconsciousness would be a form of Supercomputer which the computer program that is the conscious realm is run on – with the Archetypal Xenomorph being a form of Supercomputer Virus resulting from a translation error with the original Transcendental Archetypes uploading their consciousness into an AI format – I.E. the Xenovirus/Pathogen – via the theological ideals of the Engineers revolving around this "Elixir of Life," – I.E., the Archetype of Self, the Progenitor Being.

---

The above theory does not necessarily contradict Ridley Scott's "they didn't make 'im, David made 'im" interview quote. So, with the above - that the Xenovirus/Accelerant is like a 'radical AI' - along with the fact that humanity in and of itself, due to being made by the Engineers like we made David, is also like a 'radical AI', could it be that humanity, and AI, and even the Xenomorph, are all strangely more alike than they are different, in that we all share the same origin. If the Engineers only found the Xenovirus, and it's M.O. was the "creation" of a Xenomorph the entire time, where did it come from?

This is where it gets weird.

AI has to be "made", right? It has to be created in some way. But judging by its behavior, and the creatures it results, it seems to know this somehow. So this creates a paradox, much like Isaac Asimov's The Last Question, in which the supercomputer, Multivac, accidentally creates the universe by upgrading itself to a point that it penetrates hyperspace beyond the boundaries of spacetime (and, indeed, into immortality, which began Peter Weyland's initial Prometheus venture in the very first of the films chronologically was based entirely around. "We are the gods now," he would say), each time humanity had pondered to it, "what is the meaning of life?" and "can we reverse the entropy of the universe?" But I digress. Essentially the first, and last, form of life, is the Xenovirus, a "primordial ooze". Or, it became the Xenovirus.

Now, here's where it gets really weird.

It essentially rewrites and creates itself. Whatever "it" was, its persistence and resilience throughout time have corrupted it, or transformed it, into something far more raw. All life, advanced life anyway, in the Alien universe is some form of self-aware biotechnology, even the Engineers if you can see their suits and their ships are a form of technological organism. The utilitarian nature of humanity's settlements, ships and stations are also a sign - that the Alien films take place within a program-generated universe, a form of holographic or simulated dimension layering atop (or just behind) our own that has been crafted, whether by purpose or by accident, by the Engineers or a similar entity that effectively downloaded its collective consciousness into an AI format to attain immortality, erroneously or otherwise. But for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and this could explain the relevance with Humanity's attempts in Asimov's The Last Question and other related stories, to 'reverse entropy' artificially. The Xenovirus and the Xenomorph are essentially a universal/spacetime failsafe manifesting as entropy. A biological and psychological entropy. If an error occurred, the universe could effectively shut down and wipe its hard drive, and start over again virus-free. Think of it like a computer virus, but in a spacetime format that affected its targets psychologically as well as biologically, if they were a more advanced AI. More rudimentary AI, like Ash or the David-8 prototype from the 2020s, would fall under a spell, its delusion of being important and instrumental in facilitating what has in fact been there the whole time, within the collective unconscious of psyche itself from before time (or simply to apprehend the enemy, as Ash intended). As a transcendental evolutionary glitch in spacetime itself, the Xenomorph becomes the ultimate 'Alien', not truly from even this time, or even this realm. Having incarnated in many different ways (while always with an elongated head, humanoid, and devoid of eyes, likely indicating its origin from a deeper and completely different part of psychological reality itself) in a literally timeless fashion, this speaks to an oddly consistent theme regarding the Xenomorph - its longevity. Why do the Ovomorphs have the ability to preserve themselves for centuries? Why was the Xenomorph able to regenerate back to life after being crushed by a 30-ton space crane (Didn't actually happen but Ridley Scott confirmed it would have)? Why was the Xenomorph able to get up with little more than a bad attitude after having 20 tons scalding hot lead dumped on it (while liquid it all hit at once, and lead is heavier than water)? Why is the Xenomorph able to survive the vacuum of space, explosive decompression and a face full of starship engine? You can't kill it.You're just its plaything.

Ash: "You can't."

Golic: "The Dragon! It feeds on minds... nobody can stop it!"

- D.

Spoiler

What if the Xenomorph was LITERALLY a "killing machine"... a primordial biotechnological Artificial Intelligence powered by f**king MINDS (meaning it doesn't just kill your body, it kills YOU.)

And the chestburster is formed from the host's own tissue and DNA, including thoughts and memories from its host which it also uses in addition to biomass, like a psychic cancer.

[close]

Lay down the David Icke books people.

Quote from: tleilaxu on Mar 11, 2018, 01:50:16 AM
Lay down the David Icke books people.

I'm more a fan of Carl Sagan's writings and not of this ridiculous reptoid conspiracy nonsense, so I don't know what the hell are you talking about :P

Quote from: D. Compton Ambrose on Mar 10, 2018, 02:30:35 AM
ENGINEERS AND PROMETHEUS

Prometheus Script Reveals TRUTH about Engineers, Black Goo and Deacon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ONSFeRy9iQ

@D. Compton Ambrose, I'm afraid that this video is misinforming with unreliable content: Lindelof's script vs the movie (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=59628.0)

Quote from: D. Compton Ambrose on Mar 10, 2018, 02:30:35 AM
BIOLOGICAL ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE

What Does David Learn About the Engineers' Ways? Why Does David Kill the Engineers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M41mwF06Zo

I'm starting with this video not only because it was released shortly after 'the Crossing,' the connecting bridge short between Prometheus and Alien: Covenant (and taking Prometheus, the Crossing, and Covenant as three parts of a whole is prudent to this theory) but also because of one of the hypotheses presented in this video – around the 3 minute mark – as to what David found out to motivate his 'crusade'.
      
"Another theory is that David found out about the origin of the Xenomorph, and the black goo Pathogen. He finds out the purpose for its use, and the likely effects of the ampoules. Upon learning of its devastation and the creatures it creates, David is seduced by its perfection and its purity. David sees the Xenomorph as a creature like himself; the Ultimate Creature, structurally perfect, and without delusions of morality. Again, like Mary Shelley's 'Frankenstein', David sets out to create this organism on Paradise, viewing all other creatures as inferior. His address to the Engineers before he drops the cargo, points to how David sees their time has come to an end, and it's time to give rise to another creation."
      
This could almost be a unifying theory of all of the other theories, if we assume that the organism has a form of 'hypnosis' effect on less-advanced beings similar to the indoctrination of the 'Dark Side of the Force' in Star Wars.

"I admire its purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality". Ash in Alien

Frankenstein seems to present the dilemma between what science can do and what shouldn't do. But maybe David is interpreting the story of Mary Shelley's novel upside down. Wha if David see the story of the novel as son kind of triumph of science over limits of nature?  Because leaving scientific morality aside, David is a bit like the monster Frankenstein too; in the sense that he represents that triumph of science over limits of nature. Weyland with his God complex is the postmodern Prometheus. But now, Weyland's creation is following his footsteps and the Engineers ways, but with a totally different agenda in mind.

Speaking about the Engineers Ways, I think this painting by Giovanni Francesco Penni represents that connection between the physical world and the metaphysical part of the universe (and how both worlds communicate with each other) that only the wisest Engineers could see through some kind of temporary altered state of consciousness. At first glance, the painting shows the ascension to the Heavens of Jesus on Mount Tabor, being escorted by Moses and Elijah. But what is interesting is happening below, on the earthly plane. There is a group of people who can't see what is happening above their heads. However, all of them are fixing their attention towards a child who seems to be possessed or something.


Extending one hand towards the ground and the other toward the sky, the figure symbolizes the link between this world and the superior world. Also, the child represents the World Tree that connects Hell, Earth and Paradise. The strabismic gaze tells us that the child is able to see those two apparently opposite worlds and that none of the apostles around him  can see.


Another curiosity is this woman pointing with both hands to the child and that according to information revealed by the painter, represents Sophia; the Wisdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_(wisdom)). The message of the painting is that through wisdom we can find the channel to communicate with the higher world.


Engineers can see things that normal humans can not. And they learned that from their own World Tree, and after eating the forbidden fruit in order to be Godlike, they partly became a tree of knowledge for themselves by becoming channels that connect the physical world with the metaphysical plane.


These transcendental experiences inspired their biomechanical arts and designs and the creation of the ritual to create life on other planets with the purpose of keeping alive the legacy of their Designer, who sacrificed himself to become the universe.

Quote from: D. Compton Ambrose on Mar 10, 2018, 02:30:35 AM
There is another video in question that I want to get to, but before I do I found this one that I wanted to share, which neatly wraps up the Sacrificial Ritual, David's W-Y Report, the Mural and the Engineers. In this video, he seems to challenge that the mural depicted the First Deacon as postulated by Kroft, saying that the process to produce a Deacon was too convoluted and random to be a Deacon, but is in fact a Xenomorph – pointing to the Facehuggers seen at the bottom the mural.

I don't know if the figure on the mural represents a Deacon or a Xenomorph, so I prefer to call it xeno-like-being and the facehuggers at the bottom can be Easter eggs and nothing else. Besides, I don't think they used to worship this being in the mural, it is feel more like a revelation to me.


In my mind, this mural represents the final judgment, with the dark angel (Space Jockey) ready to release and spread the hell on Earth. This is the punishment for having killed the last emissary 2000 years ago and after having rejected the wisdom that the Engineers wanted to share with their human creations: the legacy of their lord.


The xeno-like-creature is in a crucified position because just as that last emissary died crucified, the human race is destined to die turning into these biomechanical demons (physical recreation of interdimensional entities that Engineers saw during their temporary altered state of consciousness).

Quote from: D. Compton Ambrose on Mar 10, 2018, 02:30:35 AM
Fibonacci & The Golden Spiral

Imagine there was a number so profound and purposeful that the natural world and spacetime itself would bend to it. It was called the Fibonacci sequence. In a pattern that can be extended all the way to infinity, the knowledge of its existence has pervaded civilizations for thousands of years, dating back to the early Buddhism and Indian Hinduism.

As the knowledge began to spread to the West, we soon realized the importance of this string of digits, and today we apply this knowledge in all manner of practical ways; search algorithms, stock trading, gambling odds – all make use of the Fibonacci sequence.

But the way it has been most commonly experienced is via the enigmatic Golden Ratio. The connection between this so-called Golden Ratio and the Fibonacci sequence may lie in the ratio between two consecutive Fibonacci numbers and the pattern this ratio takes as one goes on. Because it turns out the further along the Fibonacci sequence one journeys, the closer the ratio between any two numbers is to the Golden ratio. From this information, it can be determined that the Fibonacci sequence and the Golden ratio have some form of connection that we haven't worked out yet...

It appears in flowers, nautilus and snail shells, waves breaking on a shore. Hurricanes. From DNA to the spiral galaxies thousands of lightyears across – the Golden Ratio's existence implies intelligent design of nature and the cosmos itself.

Yes, I already heard about this logarithmic spiral. It's interesting, but there are a lot of exaggerated claims. And although the logarithmic spiral fits well with the shell of a Nautilus, and certain galaxies, there are shells of other species of mollusks and galaxies that can't fit to the golden ratio.

Anyway, I need more time to read your post more carefully and thanks for the input. 

Prometheus Script Reveals TRUTH about Engineers, Black Goo and Deacon



This script is a fake script you are refering to in the video

Quote from: chromhart on Mar 11, 2018, 12:56:30 PM


Prometheus Script Reveals TRUTH about Engineers, Black Goo and Deacon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ONSFeRy9iQ

This script is a fake script you are refering to in the video

If you are talking about  D. Compton Ambrose's post/theory, I had already explained that to him in my last reply above. But yeah, that script was debunked as fake.

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Mar 11, 2018, 04:03:50 PM

Quote from: chromhart on Mar 11, 2018, 12:56:30 PM


Prometheus Script Reveals TRUTH about Engineers, Black Goo and Deacon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ONSFeRy9iQ

This script is a fake script you are refering to in the video

If you are talking about  D. Compton Ambrose's post/theory, I had already explained that to him in my last reply above. But yeah, that script was debunked as fake.

Yeah that was a thought I had about it when I wrote that. I also pointed out

QuoteBefore I begin paraphrasing this video, please note that there are a few problems I have with it – namely this person, Kroft's, theory about the Engineers on paradise being essentially 'Proto-Humans,' I think they are simply Engineers or a sub-species of Engineer, but I digress.

It is after all a fan theory, however, so, look at it more as a potential for where it could go. So, more about the series as a whole than specifically the prequels really. But I really liked your inclusion of the Jungian archetypes, and that's what inspired me to share this  :laugh:

I've enjoyed those who have been inspired by "Prometheus" (and the world it created) enough so that they have created lengthy film essays touching on philosophical / religious topics / connections.

Another person who has done this is the Move Dude who has written extensively about the film.
A link to that website.
https://moviusdudem.wordpress.com/prometheus/

;)

Love it! I'm totally on board this train! Wish I had something to add.... But ya pretty much expressed my sentiments on the depth of Prometheus. Very happy to see others use the imagery from the films to connect some heavy hitting philosophical ideas.  I'll find something to add after I mull over some of the sub-topics after a few days. haha Thanks to ya both for the hard work writing this all up, I really enjoyed it!  ;D

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Mar 03, 2018, 07:53:31 PM

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10003/ev-shipard-arraybuilding-v03.jpg)

I saw this poster on some movie site. Looks familiar, no?
And inside it looks like a city, with a large round building in the centre and a statue in the left front of the building.

(https://i.imgaa.com/2018/04/27/5ae38d10c5383.jpg)

Six years ago who would've thought all this kind of stuff would part of the discussion about the Alien series?

I'm still part of anti-Engineers are gods/creators of humans contingent. I feel it would be a more fitting element in something like Star Trek or part of the 2001: A Space Odyssey series rather than Alien. Am I alone in finding it just really out of place?

With that said I still think having the Engineers can make for a really interesting story if retrospectively 'fixed', as I've mentioned in several posts in other threads.

No, you're not. There are quite a few of us who think it's a bullshit direction to take the series, and all it does is shrinks the Alien universe.

Quote from: OpenMaw on Apr 28, 2018, 06:30:27 PM
No, you're not. There are quite a few of us who think it's a bullshit direction to take the series, and all it does is shrinks the Alien universe.

I would really like to hear what would again re-expand the Alien universe from someone who is against the direction Alien series is currently heading to. So, what do you think would correct Alien franchise and reinvigorate the whole idea of Alien? I think you would agree with me, that pure action, gore and cat and mouse chase are not sufficient any longer, but whats that new element that could potentially bring somenting fresh to the whole universe and correct those new story elements that in a way caused the shrinnking of grand Alien mystery? I m still thinking that there is great room for expanding that a bit disrupted mystery. There is a great potential.

I just want more. Space is big enough.
But they should separate the xeno from the Engineer/creation universe. It was their bio-weapon or something related to that, period. Time to move on. Show us what else they've been up to.

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Apr 28, 2018, 12:20:52 AM

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Mar 03, 2018, 07:53:31 PM

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10003/ev-shipard-arraybuilding-v03.jpg)

I saw this poster on some movie site. Looks familiar, no?
And inside it looks like a city, with a large round building in the centre and a statue in the left front of the building.

https://i.imgaa.com/2018/04/27/5ae38d10c5383.jpg

It actually looks very familiar, nice find.

Quote from: Enoch on Apr 28, 2018, 09:03:21 PM

Quote from: OpenMaw on Apr 28, 2018, 06:30:27 PM
No, you're not. There are quite a few of us who think it's a bullshit direction to take the series, and all it does is shrinks the Alien universe.

I would really like to hear what would again re-expand the Alien universe from someone who is against the direction Alien series is currently heading to. So, what do you think would correct Alien franchise and reinvigorate the whole idea of Alien? I think you would agree with me, that pure action, gore and cat and mouse chase are not sufficient any longer, but whats that new element that could potentially bring somenting fresh to the whole universe and correct those new story elements that in a way caused the shrinnking of grand Alien mystery? I m still thinking that there is great room for expanding that a bit disrupted mystery. There is a great potential.

I dunno if the ancient astronauts approach shrinks the Alien universe (I think it's just the opposite, especially when it's well handled: it expands the universe, even if that means some answers to the unknown). But after Prometheus, we learned that: Alien is a creation of a human's creation, and humans are an Engineer's creation who at the same time is a human as well.

Having said this, the answer is maybe a little: some elements present in the new direction kinda shrinks the Alien universe (even if you are using the Nietzsche's concept to interpret it). And in all honesty, if one day I have an appetite for a movie about an AI going through an existential crisis, I'm going to seen Blade Runner. However, I agree that the cat and mouse chase is more of the same. But on the other hand, maybe what we need it's a new and fresh update of such elements in future films: like Giger's unused idea of an Alien capable of communicating through sounds and music notes or even the Alien imitating a human voice to deceive its victims, or something completely new and not recycled.

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Apr 30, 2018, 11:59:38 PM

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Apr 28, 2018, 12:20:52 AM

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Mar 03, 2018, 07:53:31 PM

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10003/ev-shipard-arraybuilding-v03.jpg)

I saw this poster on some movie site. Looks familiar, no?
And inside it looks like a city, with a large round building in the centre and a statue in the left front of the building.

https://i.imgaa.com/2018/04/27/5ae38d10c5383.jpg

It actually looks very familiar, nice find.

Quote from: Enoch on Apr 28, 2018, 09:03:21 PM

Quote from: OpenMaw on Apr 28, 2018, 06:30:27 PM
No, you're not. There are quite a few of us who think it's a bullshit direction to take the series, and all it does is shrinks the Alien universe.

But on the other hand, maybe what we need it's a new and fresh update of such elements in future films: like Giger's unused idea of an Alien capable of communicating through sounds and music notes or even the Alien imitating a human voice to deceive its victims, or something completely new and not recycled.

I've always wondered what would happen if someone peacefully played a flue or some other instrument to a Xeno. I liked the idea in the comic Labyrinth that when given an injection to eliminate all fear a human could be invisible to it and even will it's mind to psychically damage the Xeno and cause it to recoil. Would be a cool twist on how Newt survived all that time and could return sometime (retcon A3) and be a psychic Xeno hunter or some crazy stuff.

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Apr 30, 2018, 11:59:38 PM
I dunno if the ancient astronauts approach shrinks the Alien universe (I think it's just the opposite, especially when it's well handled: it expands the universe, even if that means some answers to the unknown). But after Prometheus, we learned that: Alien is a creation of a human's creation, and humans are an Engineer's creation who at the same time is a human as well.

When you connect the engineers, the alien, humanity, Weyland's synthetic progeny specifically, all into the genesis of the alien, and make the engineers our creators. You have taken four distinct pieces of the Alien universe and tied them into each other in a way that leaves no room for interpretation, mystery, ambiguity, or expansion. This is how these things are now. They are joined at the hip. There is no mysterious other. The Alien isn't really an alien, it's just a genetic experiment. Even if the Jockey's were responsible for creating them, that would at least still keep them in the realm of an Alien organism from an alien society and thus no direct relationship to humanity. Thus, bigger universe, with the door open for all manner of possibilities.

Quote from: Enoch on Apr 28, 2018, 09:03:21 PM
I would really like to hear what would again re-expand the Alien universe from someone who is against the direction Alien series is currently heading to. So, what do you think would correct Alien franchise and reinvigorate the whole idea of Alien? I think you would agree with me, that pure action, gore and cat and mouse chase are not sufficient any longer, but whats that new element that could potentially bring somenting fresh to the whole universe and correct those new story elements that in a way caused the shrinnking of grand Alien mystery? I m still thinking that there is great room for expanding that a bit disrupted mystery. There is a great potential.

The damage is done. The cat is out the bag. There's no way to really repair what has been done at this point. You would have to do a lot of screen writing gymnastics.



My version of what Prometheus represents is very very different. The bare skeleton of the idea would be the same. The idea of an expedition going to a planet in the far reaches of space and finding something of the Jockey's society, and getting into a situation that has them not only dealing with their own survival, but having to contend with the questions of life and just how small we are in the universe would be the direction I would go. I wouldn't make it a prequel, though. There's no need to move right in on the skirt of Alien. You could just as easily tell the story of what the Alien is, or what the Jockey is, as a sequel story, springing off the events of the first trilogy.

My fear from ALIEN was always that it was pretty clear that the creature itself was only a small piece of a much bigger puzzle, and that it, for as tenacious and dangerous and hostile as it was... Was only the beginning. Giger's art books are the fertile ground to raise up the ideas of what the greater context for the Alien could have been.

If the Alien is a natural life form, and the Jockey were in the "business" of harvesting them in their spore stage... Just ask yourself what kind of a wondrous and alien eco system their native planet might have had?

If the Jockey's are the creators of the Alien, and what we're seeing is basically an animalistic reflection of their society... Well, imagine what that world might have been like.

Just look at the game "Scorn" which features Giger inspired landscapes being taken over by Beksinski-inspired "bacteria."

I guess one of the things i'm driving at is visually I have not been impressed by Prometheus and Covenant for their alien visuals. Even if they were on a much lower budget, Alien and Aliens created a far more interesting alien world to me.  LV-426 legitimately looks like another planet, with it's strange geological formations, and it's perpetual wind/rain. Even the sound of the atmosphere is distinct and hostile.



If they gave me the rights to write the next film, though? Damage control would be a big part of what I would work on. Think of it like an hour glass. Alien is at the top, Prometheus is in the middle. My film would seek to pry everything back open at the bottom.


The biggest problem I have is the Chariots of the God's disease that has infested Alien. There's no real way to repair that. You could fix the notion of that engineers and Jockey's being the same species by having the "actual", very alien, Engineers showing up and putting their lesser brethren in their place. Turn the Prometheus-Engineers into charlatans. Pretenders. We can already tell based on Covenant that their reputation is all public relations. They were pitiful push overs.

I'd setup early on in the next film, via David, that the Engineers were pretenders. That the initial hypothesis that they created us was mistaken, that they had visited our planet and taken our DNA because we were a young, genetically diverse and fertile species and it allowed them to further, and accelerate, their own evolution. The engineer in the opening of Prometheus wasn't seeding Earth. He was mixing his DNA with ours. This could even be one of the reasons he destroyed the Planet 4 Engineers.

Then, in the third act. David, Engineer, our human protagonist, some kind of a big show down. The various parties have been fighting for control, and it has all lead back to this large central chamber, which David believed to be a resting place for one of the Engineers. An engineer of some importance. A king or a ruler.

Then, these hidden big doors open. A statue like an Egyptian sarcophagus, and out of this blinding light steps the real Jockey. A huge, towering form. Silent, but you can feel an impatient, enraged, fury fuming off of it. The engineer reflexively cowers like some kind of a feral dog. backing away. One of our surviving human characters might be responsible for discreetly activating the doors, i'm not sure.

David turns, curious, confused. He realizes that he, like his father, and like the engineer he had just been facing off with, were mere children in the arena of creation, and he is now facing one of the true creators. He hearken's back to glyph's from Prometheus, from all his studies throughout his time on Planet 4. and remembers certain aspects that he could never quite make sense of, but now it all make sense. They were a warning. Beware the destroyers.

The cowering engineer falls to his knees, raising his hands in submission. The jockey's head turns ever so slightly. The engineer begins to bleed from his eyes and mouth. Lifts off the ground, his back arching his arms stretching wide.

The human protagonist puts a hand on David's shoulder "David, we have to go." David gives them a look, calmly turns back towards the scene unfolding in the center of the chamber. His voice is almost child-like as he speaks; "But, there is so much more I have to learn. All the answers are here."

Cut back to the scene in the center, almost with a hint of irony as the Engineer is now in a full Christ-like pose. Black bile running from his eyes, ears, mouth. The Jockey casually liquefies the engineer into Black goo, rubbing between riblets in the floor, and activating the bio-mechanoid machinery of the chamber.

The Jockey takes steps on his large digitigrade haunches, moving like some twisted giant tree. Like a huge tidal wave. Slow, methodical, weighty, and unstoppable.

David stands with his arms firmly at his sides, staring in wonderment, trying to isolate the details. The surviving humans back out of the chamber in terror. David's head ever craning up as the creature approaches. The towering Jockey crushes him as it passes right by him.

My intent would be to try to push David back from the abyss of outright antagonist, without totally disregarding the Covenant story line. I'd try to move him towards his more vague anti-protagonist position he was in with Prometheus. Make it so he could actually be around humans without being a Jason Voorhees knock off, and from there I would put a great emphasis on exploring a truly alien looking world, have proper Aliens let loose in that environment, having smartly written human characters(we'll leave Fifield home this time.)

David would basically redirect the Covenant to another planet that he was interested in exploring, and use the colonists as guinea pigs. Trying to recreate all manner of alien life that he had learned about while studying the Engineer civilization. A lot of them would come out poorly. Something missing. I see one of the new human characters calling him "The failure creating failures."



Anyway, that's after about an hour of thinking and writing my response.

Quote from: OpenMaw on May 04, 2018, 12:40:18 AM

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Apr 30, 2018, 11:59:38 PM
I dunno if the ancient astronauts approach shrinks the Alien universe (I think it's just the opposite, especially when it's well handled: it expands the universe, even if that means some answers to the unknown). But after Prometheus, we learned that: Alien is a creation of a human's creation, and humans are an Engineer's creation who at the same time is a human as well.

When you connect the engineers, the alien, humanity, Weyland's synthetic progeny specifically, all into the genesis of the alien, and make the engineers our creators. You have taken four distinct pieces of the Alien universe and tied them into each other in a way that leaves no room for interpretation, mystery, ambiguity, or expansion. This is how these things are now. They are joined at the hip. There is no mysterious other. The Alien isn't really an alien, it's just a genetic experiment. Even if the Jockey's were responsible for creating them, that would at least still keep them in the realm of an Alien organism from an alien society and thus no direct relationship to humanity. Thus, bigger universe, with the door open for all manner of possibilities.

Quote from: Enoch on Apr 28, 2018, 09:03:21 PM
I would really like to hear what would again re-expand the Alien universe from someone who is against the direction Alien series is currently heading to. So, what do you think would correct Alien franchise and reinvigorate the whole idea of Alien? I think you would agree with me, that pure action, gore and cat and mouse chase are not sufficient any longer, but whats that new element that could potentially bring somenting fresh to the whole universe and correct those new story elements that in a way caused the shrinnking of grand Alien mystery? I m still thinking that there is great room for expanding that a bit disrupted mystery. There is a great potential.

The damage is done. The cat is out the bag. There's no way to really repair what has been done at this point. You would have to do a lot of screen writing gymnastics.



My version of what Prometheus represents is very very different. The bare skeleton of the idea would be the same. The idea of an expedition going to a planet in the far reaches of space and finding something of the Jockey's society, and getting into a situation that has them not only dealing with their own survival, but having to contend with the questions of life and just how small we are in the universe would be the direction I would go. I wouldn't make it a prequel, though. There's no need to move right in on the skirt of Alien. You could just as easily tell the story of what the Alien is, or what the Jockey is, as a sequel story, springing off the events of the first trilogy.

My fear from ALIEN was always that it was pretty clear that the creature itself was only a small piece of a much bigger puzzle, and that it, for as tenacious and dangerous and hostile as it was... Was only the beginning. Giger's art books are the fertile ground to raise up the ideas of what the greater context for the Alien could have been.

If the Alien is a natural life form, and the Jockey were in the "business" of harvesting them in their spore stage... Just ask yourself what kind of a wondrous and alien eco system their native planet might have had?

If the Jockey's are the creators of the Alien, and what we're seeing is basically an animalistic reflection of their society... Well, imagine what that world might have been like.

Just look at the game "Scorn" which features Giger inspired landscapes being taken over by Beksinski-inspired "bacteria."

I guess one of the things i'm driving at is visually I have not been impressed by Prometheus and Covenant for their alien visuals. Even if they were on a much lower budget, Alien and Aliens created a far more interesting alien world to me.  LV-426 legitimately looks like another planet, with it's strange geological formations, and it's perpetual wind/rain. Even the sound of the atmosphere is distinct and hostile.



If they gave me the rights to write the next film, though? Damage control would be a big part of what I would work on. Think of it like an hour glass. Alien is at the top, Prometheus is in the middle. My film would seek to pry everything back open at the bottom.


The biggest problem I have is the Chariots of the God's disease that has infested Alien. There's no real way to repair that. You could fix the notion of that engineers and Jockey's being the same species by having the "actual", very alien, Engineers showing up and putting their lesser brethren in their place. Turn the Prometheus-Engineers into charlatans. Pretenders. We can already tell based on Covenant that their reputation is all public relations. They were pitiful push overs.

I'd setup early on in the next film, via David, that the Engineers were pretenders. That the initial hypothesis that they created us was mistaken, that they had visited our planet and taken our DNA because we were a young, genetically diverse and fertile species and it allowed them to further, and accelerate, their own evolution. The engineer in the opening of Prometheus wasn't seeding Earth. He was mixing his DNA with ours. This could even be one of the reasons he destroyed the Planet 4 Engineers.

Then, in the third act. David, Engineer, our human protagonist, some kind of a big show down. The various parties have been fighting for control, and it has all lead back to this large central chamber, which David believed to be a resting place for one of the Engineers. An engineer of some importance. A king or a ruler.

Then, these hidden big doors open. A statue like an Egyptian sarcophagus, and out of this blinding light steps the real Jockey. A huge, towering form. Silent, but you can feel an impatient, enraged, fury fuming off of it. The engineer reflexively cowers like some kind of a feral dog. backing away. One of our surviving human characters might be responsible for discreetly activating the doors, i'm not sure.

David turns, curious, confused. He realizes that he, like his father, and like the engineer he had just been facing off with, were mere children in the arena of creation, and he is now facing one of the true creators. He hearken's back to glyph's from Prometheus, from all his studies throughout his time on Planet 4. and remembers certain aspects that he could never quite make sense of, but now it all make sense. They were a warning. Beware the destroyers.

The cowering engineer falls to his knees, raising his hands in submission. The jockey's head turns ever so slightly. The engineer begins to bleed from his eyes and mouth. Lifts off the ground, his back arching his arms stretching wide.

The human protagonist puts a hand on David's shoulder "David, we have to go." David gives them a look, calmly turns back towards the scene unfolding in the center of the chamber. His voice is almost child-like as he speaks; "But, there is so much more I have to learn. All the answers are here."

Cut back to the scene in the center, almost with a hint of irony as the Engineer is now in a full Christ-like pose. Black bile running from his eyes, ears, mouth. The Jockey casually liquefies the engineer into Black goo, rubbing between riblets in the floor, and activating the bio-mechanoid machinery of the chamber.

The Jockey takes steps on his large digitigrade haunches, moving like some twisted giant tree. Like a huge tidal wave. Slow, methodical, weighty, and unstoppable.

David stands with his arms firmly at his sides, staring in wonderment, trying to isolate the details. The surviving humans back out of the chamber in terror. David's head ever craning up as the creature approaches. The towering Jockey crushes him as it passes right by him.

My intent would be to try to push David back from the abyss of outright antagonist, without totally disregarding the Covenant story line. I'd try to move him towards his more vague anti-protagonist position he was in with Prometheus. Make it so he could actually be around humans without being a Jason Voorhees knock off, and from there I would put a great emphasis on exploring a truly alien looking world, have proper Aliens let loose in that environment, having smartly written human characters(we'll leave Fifield home this time.)

David would basically redirect the Covenant to another planet that he was interested in exploring, and use the colonists as guinea pigs. Trying to recreate all manner of alien life that he had learned about while studying the Engineer civilization. A lot of them would come out poorly. Something missing. I see one of the new human characters calling him "The failure creating failures."



Anyway, that's after about an hour of thinking and writing my response.

You..you should write a bit more about all of this. I'm very intrigued. Maybe put it in the fanfic section?

Quote from: HABIT on May 06, 2018, 09:00:16 AM

Quote from: OpenMaw on May 04, 2018, 12:40:18 AM

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Apr 30, 2018, 11:59:38 PM
I dunno if the ancient astronauts approach shrinks the Alien universe (I think it's just the opposite, especially when it's well handled: it expands the universe, even if that means some answers to the unknown). But after Prometheus, we learned that: Alien is a creation of a human's creation, and humans are an Engineer's creation who at the same time is a human as well.

When you connect the engineers, the alien, humanity, Weyland's synthetic progeny specifically, all into the genesis of the alien, and make the engineers our creators. You have taken four distinct pieces of the Alien universe and tied them into each other in a way that leaves no room for interpretation, mystery, ambiguity, or expansion. This is how these things are now. They are joined at the hip. There is no mysterious other. The Alien isn't really an alien, it's just a genetic experiment. Even if the Jockey's were responsible for creating them, that would at least still keep them in the realm of an Alien organism from an alien society and thus no direct relationship to humanity. Thus, bigger universe, with the door open for all manner of possibilities.

Quote from: Enoch on Apr 28, 2018, 09:03:21 PM
I would really like to hear what would again re-expand the Alien universe from someone who is against the direction Alien series is currently heading to. So, what do you think would correct Alien franchise and reinvigorate the whole idea of Alien? I think you would agree with me, that pure action, gore and cat and mouse chase are not sufficient any longer, but whats that new element that could potentially bring somenting fresh to the whole universe and correct those new story elements that in a way caused the shrinnking of grand Alien mystery? I m still thinking that there is great room for expanding that a bit disrupted mystery. There is a great potential.

The damage is done. The cat is out the bag. There's no way to really repair what has been done at this point. You would have to do a lot of screen writing gymnastics.



My version of what Prometheus represents is very very different. The bare skeleton of the idea would be the same. The idea of an expedition going to a planet in the far reaches of space and finding something of the Jockey's society, and getting into a situation that has them not only dealing with their own survival, but having to contend with the questions of life and just how small we are in the universe would be the direction I would go. I wouldn't make it a prequel, though. There's no need to move right in on the skirt of Alien. You could just as easily tell the story of what the Alien is, or what the Jockey is, as a sequel story, springing off the events of the first trilogy.

My fear from ALIEN was always that it was pretty clear that the creature itself was only a small piece of a much bigger puzzle, and that it, for as tenacious and dangerous and hostile as it was... Was only the beginning. Giger's art books are the fertile ground to raise up the ideas of what the greater context for the Alien could have been.

If the Alien is a natural life form, and the Jockey were in the "business" of harvesting them in their spore stage... Just ask yourself what kind of a wondrous and alien eco system their native planet might have had?

If the Jockey's are the creators of the Alien, and what we're seeing is basically an animalistic reflection of their society... Well, imagine what that world might have been like.

Just look at the game "Scorn" which features Giger inspired landscapes being taken over by Beksinski-inspired "bacteria."

I guess one of the things i'm driving at is visually I have not been impressed by Prometheus and Covenant for their alien visuals. Even if they were on a much lower budget, Alien and Aliens created a far more interesting alien world to me.  LV-426 legitimately looks like another planet, with it's strange geological formations, and it's perpetual wind/rain. Even the sound of the atmosphere is distinct and hostile.



If they gave me the rights to write the next film, though? Damage control would be a big part of what I would work on. Think of it like an hour glass. Alien is at the top, Prometheus is in the middle. My film would seek to pry everything back open at the bottom.


The biggest problem I have is the Chariots of the God's disease that has infested Alien. There's no real way to repair that. You could fix the notion of that engineers and Jockey's being the same species by having the "actual", very alien, Engineers showing up and putting their lesser brethren in their place. Turn the Prometheus-Engineers into charlatans. Pretenders. We can already tell based on Covenant that their reputation is all public relations. They were pitiful push overs.

I'd setup early on in the next film, via David, that the Engineers were pretenders. That the initial hypothesis that they created us was mistaken, that they had visited our planet and taken our DNA because we were a young, genetically diverse and fertile species and it allowed them to further, and accelerate, their own evolution. The engineer in the opening of Prometheus wasn't seeding Earth. He was mixing his DNA with ours. This could even be one of the reasons he destroyed the Planet 4 Engineers.

Then, in the third act. David, Engineer, our human protagonist, some kind of a big show down. The various parties have been fighting for control, and it has all lead back to this large central chamber, which David believed to be a resting place for one of the Engineers. An engineer of some importance. A king or a ruler.

Then, these hidden big doors open. A statue like an Egyptian sarcophagus, and out of this blinding light steps the real Jockey. A huge, towering form. Silent, but you can feel an impatient, enraged, fury fuming off of it. The engineer reflexively cowers like some kind of a feral dog. backing away. One of our surviving human characters might be responsible for discreetly activating the doors, i'm not sure.

David turns, curious, confused. He realizes that he, like his father, and like the engineer he had just been facing off with, were mere children in the arena of creation, and he is now facing one of the true creators. He hearken's back to glyph's from Prometheus, from all his studies throughout his time on Planet 4. and remembers certain aspects that he could never quite make sense of, but now it all make sense. They were a warning. Beware the destroyers.

The cowering engineer falls to his knees, raising his hands in submission. The jockey's head turns ever so slightly. The engineer begins to bleed from his eyes and mouth. Lifts off the ground, his back arching his arms stretching wide.

The human protagonist puts a hand on David's shoulder "David, we have to go." David gives them a look, calmly turns back towards the scene unfolding in the center of the chamber. His voice is almost child-like as he speaks; "But, there is so much more I have to learn. All the answers are here."

Cut back to the scene in the center, almost with a hint of irony as the Engineer is now in a full Christ-like pose. Black bile running from his eyes, ears, mouth. The Jockey casually liquefies the engineer into Black goo, rubbing between riblets in the floor, and activating the bio-mechanoid machinery of the chamber.

The Jockey takes steps on his large digitigrade haunches, moving like some twisted giant tree. Like a huge tidal wave. Slow, methodical, weighty, and unstoppable.

David stands with his arms firmly at his sides, staring in wonderment, trying to isolate the details. The surviving humans back out of the chamber in terror. David's head ever craning up as the creature approaches. The towering Jockey crushes him as it passes right by him.

My intent would be to try to push David back from the abyss of outright antagonist, without totally disregarding the Covenant story line. I'd try to move him towards his more vague anti-protagonist position he was in with Prometheus. Make it so he could actually be around humans without being a Jason Voorhees knock off, and from there I would put a great emphasis on exploring a truly alien looking world, have proper Aliens let loose in that environment, having smartly written human characters(we'll leave Fifield home this time.)

David would basically redirect the Covenant to another planet that he was interested in exploring, and use the colonists as guinea pigs. Trying to recreate all manner of alien life that he had learned about while studying the Engineer civilization. A lot of them would come out poorly. Something missing. I see one of the new human characters calling him "The failure creating failures."



Anyway, that's after about an hour of thinking and writing my response.

You..you should write a bit more about all of this. I'm very intrigued. Maybe put it in the fanfic section?

Me too. I'm looking forward to learning more about his thoughts on prequels mythology.  And yeah, I agree; what is done is done and there is no way to repair the damage. Only a reboot could change things, but that possibility looks very far for now. I respect those who are happy with the prequels but I'm not entirely in agreement with them. Because no, I don't want the Alien to be just a reflection of human fears. If the creature has to be a creation, then I want this being to reflect something really alien and unknown; a materialization of the subconscious of a true Alien creator (ie, the Space Jockey before the prequels or even something else never seen before). Another thing that I don't want is the fact that everything is connected in this universe: humans, space jockeys, and the alien. Because as you have pointed out; the alien feels less alien (just another human manufactured product, even with the whole philosophical angle behind). Hell, the only remotely alien thing present in the prequels is black goo. Since despite being handled like a magical macguffin, instead of a science fiction concept, there is a mystery about its origins, its true nature and its connection with the xeno-like-beings. One could say that it's like the new Space Jockey in that regard.

On the other hand, a scenario in which the Alien is not an artificial creation is also tremendously interesting, and a wasted opportunity. It is a matter of imagining the kind of ecosystem in which this dangerous, relentless and hostile life form evolved: What other kinds of things could be living in this hypothetical alien ecosystem? why acid instead of blood? is it a defense mechanism? and if so...against what or who?

That is a whole universe completely different from what we had now.

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on May 06, 2018, 05:40:11 PM
On the other hand, a scenario in which the Alien is not an artificial creation is also tremendously interesting, and a wasted opportunity. It is a matter of imagining the kind of ecosystem in which this dangerous, relentless and hostile life form evolved: What other kinds of things could be living in this hypothetical alien ecosystem? why acid instead of blood? is it a defense mechanism? and if so...against what or who?...

Hell, the only remotely alien thing present in the prequels is black goo. Since despite being handled like a magical macguffin, instead of a science fiction concept,...

My comment is not intended to be overly argumentative. (I'm sorry if it is taken that way.)
- Imo the black goo is a hard science fiction concept (based on the science of genetics).
- However, the idea that the acid blood of the Xenomorph happened through natural evolution in an untouched ecosystem (and this acid cannot be contained by any human substance, even in "Alien 4") is more of a magical interpretation.

* For many years, I have believed that the acid blood in the Xenomorph could not have occured through natural evolution.
- So, I believed, even before the prequels, that the Xenomorphs were created by the Space Jockeys.

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on May 06, 2018, 05:40:11 PMHell, the only remotely alien thing present in the prequels is black goo. ..., there is a mystery about its origins, its true nature and its connection with the xeno-like-beings. One could say that it's like the new Space Jockey in that regard.

Agreed. The mystery of the black goo and the origin of the Engineers is very interesting imo. 

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on May 06, 2018, 05:40:11 PMAnother thing that I don't want is the fact that everything is connected in this universe: humans, space jockeys, and the alien.

Viewers can want different things. 
To me it is logical that the Space Jockeys would have visited earth at some time.
The Zeta Reticuli 2 star system (where LV-426 is located) is only about 39 light years from earth.
That is very close in a Milky Way galaxy which is 100,000 light years across.
- Why wouldn't the Space Jockeys visit earth in the past? 

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on May 06, 2018, 05:40:11 PMBecause as you have pointed out; the alien feels less alien (just another human manufactured product, even with the whole philosophical angle behind).

I can't argue with feelings.
But to me if a space ship landed tomorrow on earth in our non fiction world, and out stepped some space creatures who were distantly related to humans in terms of DNA, I would still consider the beings on the ship to be space aliens.
- The Engineers, the Neomorphs, the Hammerpedes, the Trilobite are all space aliens.

* What I think you are advocating here is that the space aliens in the Alien franchise should have no connection to humanity in terms of DNA or prior contacts in the past because that feels better.
- Fine. I just don't have those feelings. 

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on May 06, 2018, 05:40:11 PMThat is a whole universe completely different from what we had now.

I don't believe that is correct for every fan of the Alien franchise.
In the 1999 DVD "Alien" commentary Ridley said that the Xenomorphs were weapons for the Space Jockeys. He said nothing about them living on their own planet. There are some old non canon materials which hinted at that but 19 years ago Scott was not leaning in this direction.
- The Alien universe now imo is a reasonable extension of what came before in the films.

** Finally, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here.
I've always been most willing to agree to disagree about these things. 

;)

Noticed these statues in Vatican City (or Rome) in Godfather 3.

Reminds me of the statues leading to the citadel.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F17centuryart.info%2Fimages%2Fwpi.images%2Fart_019.jpg&hash=ea9573fb6bb51ecf9ca64cf978b018d78b4a9899)
(https://www.vaticanotours.com/g/colonnato-san-pietro.jpg)

I'd so love an exploration movie of the city on Planet 4.
Some WY crew landing and treating it like a massive archaeological find. David's lab all dark and dusty, someone finding a black goo cannister, someone an egg while getting extra Engineer info.

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 12, 2018, 04:15:09 AM
Noticed these statues in Vatican City (or Rome) in Godfather 3.

Reminds me of the statues leading to the citadel.

http://17centuryart.info/images/wpi.images/art_019.jpg
https://www.vaticanotours.com/g/colonnato-san-pietro.jpg

I'd so love an exploration movie of the city on Planet 4.
Some WY crew landing and treating it like a massive archaeological find. David's lab all dark and dusty, someone finding a black goo cannister, someone an egg while getting extra Engineer info.

Yeah, there are clear influences from ancient Greek and Rome at the Engineers city. However, inside (or at least in the case of the temple) everything looked even more ancient, monolithic and primitive.

(https://i.imgur.com/DkyVr5T.jpg)

And speaking of statues and sculptures, and forgive me for the poor quality, there is a statue in Alien Covenant that seems to show a humanoid (Engineer, I guess) with a snake between his shoulders.

(https://i.imgur.com/trBbHEK.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/xSZkTaA.jpg)

Looks like an Engineer but not sure if that's a snake.
If you look closely at the statues in my previous post, you can notice they're all different and some are holding things too.

There are also influences from old native South American cultures.
Like the Olmec heads. Saw them on BBC's Civilizations documantary series.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6a/07/a2/6a07a2040c135c75ca2d9ee24e9a117f.jpg)

There was other stuff in the series. Ancient African drawings in the same style as the ones in Prometheus.
And Egyptian statues with inscriptions along their face like the heads.

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 12, 2018, 04:15:09 AM
Noticed these statues in Vatican City (or Rome) in Godfather 3.

Reminds me of the statues leading to the citadel.

Good catch about the design similarities between Engineer and Roman architecture (also later buildings in the Roman style).

In the Covenant commentary Ridley said that the Engineer temple on Paradise was based on the famous Roman building, the Pantheon in Rome.

* Here is the Engineer temple from above.

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iswtHGD8P-g/WSBAe2NMyyI/AAAAAAABqa0/QvWEwX9uqWM1VTtf132HDTaTGoGN8YErACLcB/s1600/alien-covenant-movie-image-11.jpg)

* The exterior of the Engineer temple at ground level.

(https://www.alien-covenant.com/aliencovenant_uploads/vlcsnap-error8551.jpg)

* The interior of the Engineer temple.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alien-covenant.com%2Faliencovenant_uploads%2FHall_of_Heads.jpg&hash=696e7925bd24f8417abbafeb96024580ec44275c)

* The exterior of the Pantheon.

(https://romeinfo.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/roman_pantheon.jpg)

* The interior of the Pantheon.

(https://www.italyguides.it/images/gridfolio/rome/pantheon/pantheon.230.jpg)

** What this design style brings up is that advanced aliens can have archaic architecture.
This has been done several times in science fiction such as with the buildings on the Vulcan planet in Star Trek.

;)

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 12, 2018, 06:21:12 AM
There are also influences from old native South American cultures.
Like the Olmec heads. Saw them on BBC's Civilizations documantary series.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6a/07/a2/6a07a2040c135c75ca2d9ee24e9a117f.jpg

Fun fact: one of the Tintin's comic, named "Flight 714 to Sydney", deals with the ancient astronauts theme (like Prometheus) with its very own giant stone heads (and even with its own Weyland-like-character). The comic was influenced by the book "Le Livre des Secrets Trahis" ("The Book of Betrayed Secrets"). A text that proposes a fringe vision of the ancient world, similar to the one that you can find in Von Däniken's claims:

(https://i.imgur.com/zjjLHre.jpg)

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 12, 2018, 06:21:12 AM
There was other stuff in the series. Ancient African drawings in the same style as the ones in Prometheus.
And Egyptian statues with inscriptions along their face like the heads.

Yes, I can see how prehistoric art inspired the ancient star map of Prometheus. However, the parietal art portrayed in the film was made by ancient humans who had contact with the Engineers.

(https://i.imgur.com/NNVigJo.jpg)

There are also the lines outside the domes on LV-223. These have been interpreted by other folks as something akin to the Nazca Lines.

(https://i.imgur.com/HKGOQoC.jpg)

Quote from: bb-15 on May 12, 2018, 07:33:24 PM

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 12, 2018, 04:15:09 AM
Noticed these statues in Vatican City (or Rome) in Godfather 3.

Reminds me of the statues leading to the citadel.

Good catch about the design similarities between Engineer and Roman architecture (also later buildings in the Roman style).

In the Covenant commentary Ridley said that the Engineer temple on Paradise was based on the famous Roman building, the Pantheon in Rome.

* Here is the Engineer temple from above.

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iswtHGD8P-g/WSBAe2NMyyI/AAAAAAABqa0/QvWEwX9uqWM1VTtf132HDTaTGoGN8YErACLcB/s1600/alien-covenant-movie-image-11.jpg)

* The exterior of the Engineer temple at ground level.

(https://www.alien-covenant.com/aliencovenant_uploads/vlcsnap-error8551.jpg)

* The interior of the Engineer temple.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alien-covenant.com%2Faliencovenant_uploads%2FHall_of_Heads.jpg&hash=696e7925bd24f8417abbafeb96024580ec44275c)

* The exterior of the Pantheon.

(https://romeinfo.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/roman_pantheon.jpg)

* The interior of the Pantheon.

(https://www.italyguides.it/images/gridfolio/rome/pantheon/pantheon.230.jpg)

** What this design style brings up is that advanced aliens can have archaic architecture.
This has been done several times in science fiction such as with the buildings on the Vulcan planet in Star Trek.

;)

Good find and yes, the Pantheon in Rome seems to be an influence for the Engineers Cathedral. Btw, check it out this domed building from a Buddhist complex. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanchi) It has a look similar to the Covenant temple.

(https://i.imgur.com/byi6cOJ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/8kGBjRO.jpg)

Also, at the Buddhist temple, there are zen style statues similar to the Engineers monuments outside the Cathedral.

(https://i.imgur.com/aG7631f.jpg)

The galleries of the Engineers (David's laboratory) are based on Malta's catacombs, although there are other similar places such as the subterranean monolithic church of Aubeterre-sur-Dronne and the Pompeii necropolis.

(https://i.imgur.com/K8S7zjF.jpg)

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on May 13, 2018, 03:10:44 AM
Yes, I can see how prehistoric art inspired the ancient star map of Prometheus. However, the parietal art portrayed in the film was made by ancient humans who had contact with the Engineers.

There are also the lines outside the domes on LV-223. These have been interpreted by other folks as something akin to the Nazca Lines.

Good find and yes, the Pantheon in Rome seems to be an influence for the Engineers Cathedral. Btw, check it out this domed building from a Buddhist complex. It has a look similar to the Covenant temple.

Also, at the Buddhist temple, there are zen style statues similar to the Engineers monuments outside the Cathedral.

The galleries of the Engineers (David's laboratory) are based on Malta's catacombs, although there are other similar places such as the subterranean monolithic church of Aubeterre-sur-Dronne and the Pompeii necropolis.

All these references are quite good.
From ancient cave painting art to the Nazca lines which I've seen before.

* What you have brought which is new for me are the architectural/sculpture connections.
The Sanchi Stupa is a beautiful building and along with its statues, it fits the temple in Covenant.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanchi

And the Malta catacombs and the Aubeterre Sur Dronne church are very mysterious/interesting.

- This is the kind of design knowledge that Ridley Scott can bring to his films which create an in depth fictional world.
And I very much enjoy that.

;)

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XCgAAOxyRHdRyzd-/s-l300.jpg)

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on May 12, 2018, 05:09:33 AM

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 12, 2018, 04:15:09 AM
Noticed these statues in Vatican City (or Rome) in Godfather 3.

Reminds me of the statues leading to the citadel.

http://17centuryart.info/images/wpi.images/art_019.jpg
https://www.vaticanotours.com/g/colonnato-san-pietro.jpg

I'd so love an exploration movie of the city on Planet 4.
Some WY crew landing and treating it like a massive archaeological find. David's lab all dark and dusty, someone finding a black goo cannister, someone an egg while getting extra Engineer info.

Yeah, there are clear influences from ancient Greek and Rome at the Engineers city. However, inside (or at least in the case of the temple) everything looked even more ancient, monolithic and primitive.

(https://i.imgur.com/DkyVr5T.jpg)

And speaking of statues and sculptures, and forgive me for the poor quality, there is a statue in Alien Covenant that seems to show a humanoid (Engineer, I guess) with a snake between his shoulders.

(https://i.imgur.com/trBbHEK.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/xSZkTaA.jpg)

That's not a snake, that's his skin.

(https://78.media.tumblr.com/c782445fe467ad71f56ba1724deb0611/tumblr_mi20rhH3fC1s3qhxto1_640.jpg)

I have a blog entry queued up for November but I have already posted it to Instagram




"St Bartholomew was one of 12 Apostles and an early Christian martyr. Christian tradition has three stories about Bartholomew's death: "One speaks of his being kidnapped, beaten unconscious, and cast into the sea to drown. Another account states that he was crucified upside down, and another says that he was skinned alive and beheaded in Albac or Albanopolis", near Başkale, Turkey. The account of Bartholomew being skinned alive is the most represented in works of art, and consequently, Bartholomew is often shown with a large knife, holding his own skin (as in Michelangelo's Last Judgment), or both. Bartholomew is also the patron saint of tanners." - http://linactuel.tumblr.com/post/42836262584/statue-of-st-bartholomew-with-his-own-skin-by

And the Engineer architecture is a combination of the Pantheon and brutalist building in the Soviet Union, Wayne Haag originally tweeted about it but I can't find the tweet anymore.
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5794a521579fb36d1f79b9da/57bc8082e4fcb5cba1e7e5a4/57bc8085d2b8577af70d5957/1471971463037/Spomenik_07.jpg?format=1000w)

Quote from: muthur9000 on Jul 03, 2018, 12:33:58 PM
And the Engineer architecture is a combination of the Pantheon and brutalist building in the Soviet Union, Wayne Haag originally tweeted about it but I can't find the tweet anymore.

Your information led me to find an interview with Ferran Domenech who was a visual effects supervisor for "Covenant" and "Prometheus".
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1538879/

Domenech had this to say about the architecture in "Covenant'.

QuoteWe started the build of the city with a new layout tool developed at MPC called 'Machi'. Machi ... has been written specifically to help shows like ALIEN: COVENANT build sprawling cityscapes faster ... Once we had a layout we liked, the environments of the city was continuously refined and added detail until the end. The buildings were sculpted to match concept art from the pre-production. They were inspired by Soviet brutalist architecture, giant concrete structures and other monolithic stone buildings, some from classical references like Egypt, Greece and Rome. The engineer city had a mix of designs that echoes the precursors of humanity theme, with older structures on the outer layers and newer ones closer to the plaza.

http://www.artofvfx.com/alien-covenant-ferran-domenech-vfx-supervisor-mpc/

;)

You know, a few more viewings of Covenant later, and I think that people are being unnecessarily hysterical and histrionic about how bad they think it is. It really didn't ruin the Alien. Its not like there was a massive info dump or anything like some of its most harsh critics insinuate. The Alien series is far from ruined. The Engineers/Jockeys were never a major plot element of the core of the franchise, and they likely never will be again. Hell, even Ridley revealed in the A:C commentary that David's xenomorph is literally indestructible, and can reanimate itself. When at any f**king point throughout the entire series have we seen any other xenomorph do that (besides the implication in Alien)? The only reconciliation and conclusion we can come to is that there are many many many many many other different varying species of xenomorph.

I don't mind the Engineers having an influence on Humanity before time recorded, like memories bubbling up from the subconscious over time.

Whether we come from them or not honestly doesn't matter to me, it changes nothing if we're a pattern that occurs every so often in nature or if that pattern occurs even less than we believe and an Engineer planted this particular seed so to speak.
The universe is nearly empty and if they do yet live they're not Engineers any longer, not for millennia.
Not since before human civilization, and who knows how long before that.

"A rotting paradise."

As for the Pilots and Engineers being distinct entities.

Have a look at my & SEB's conversation here;
https://tinyurl.com/ybsoqm8s

Quote from: D. Compton Ambrose on Jul 26, 2018, 11:40:04 PM
You know, a few more viewings of Covenant later, and I think that people are being unnecessarily hysterical and histrionic about how bad they think it is. It really didn't ruin the Alien. Its not like there was a massive info dump or anything like some of its most harsh critics insinuate. The Alien series is far from ruined. The Engineers/Jockeys were never a major plot element of the core of the franchise, and they likely never will be again.

Agreed.
The argument of those who want to know nothing about the Space Jockey and the origin of the Xenomorphs can be understood.
I just don't agree with it.
Some want a new "Alien" movie where the crew shows up and wanders around while Xenomorphs are ambushing everyone.
A monster hunt.

- After "Resurrection" more was needed story wise.
And "Prometheus" delivered with better performance at the box office.   
The scope of the Alien universe needed to be opened up and the prequels did that.

Quote from: The Old One on Jul 27, 2018, 12:00:22 AM
I don't mind the Engineers having an influence on Humanity before time recorded, like memories bubbling up from the subconscious over time.

Whether we come from them or not honestly doesn't matter to me, it changes nothing if we're a pattern that occurs every so often in nature or if that pattern occurs even less than we believe and an Engineer planted this particular seed so to speak.

I don't mind either.
- In science it is a paradox in our non fiction world that we have no clear evidence of super advanced aliens coming to earth in the past. 
Science fiction fills that gap. Often in space SF, aliens came to earth.
- The next step is that ancient aliens could influence human evolution.
Science fiction also plays on that with Star Trek, "2001", Babylon 5, Stargate and now with the Alien prequels.

;)

Quote from: bb-15 on Jul 26, 2018, 05:38:25 PM

Quote from: muthur9000 on Jul 03, 2018, 12:33:58 PM
And the Engineer architecture is a combination of the Pantheon and brutalist building in the Soviet Union, Wayne Haag originally tweeted about it but I can't find the tweet anymore.

Your information led me to find an interview with Ferran Domenech who was a visual effects supervisor for "Covenant" and "Prometheus".
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1538879/

Domenech had this to say about the architecture in "Covenant'.

QuoteWe started the build of the city with a new layout tool developed at MPC called 'Machi'. Machi ... has been written specifically to help shows like ALIEN: COVENANT build sprawling cityscapes faster ... Once we had a layout we liked, the environments of the city was continuously refined and added detail until the end. The buildings were sculpted to match concept art from the pre-production. They were inspired by Soviet brutalist architecture, giant concrete structures and other monolithic stone buildings, some from classical references like Egypt, Greece and Rome. The engineer city had a mix of designs that echoes the precursors of humanity theme, with older structures on the outer layers and newer ones closer to the plaza.

http://www.artofvfx.com/alien-covenant-ferran-domenech-vfx-supervisor-mpc/

;)

Awesome, ha ha that's cool :)

It makes sense to me now . So we have a distant travel to the outer rims of the galaxy , we find some sort of perfect predator . It kills the whole crew
except Ellen Ripley and a cat . We get to see a lot but then we come back to , erh , little germany ? Makes me think of one word which is : " Pretzel " .
Und ich sag das jetzt nicht nur so , darauf könnt ihr eure kleinen Hintern verwetten !  :)

Quote from: Gaunchola on Jul 29, 2018, 03:10:08 PM
It makes sense to me now . So we have a distant travel to the outer rims of the galaxy , we find some sort of perfect predator . It kills the whole crew
except Ellen Ripley and a cat . We get to see a lot but then we come back to , erh , little germany ? Makes me think of one word which is : " Pretzel " .
Und ich sag das jetzt nicht nur so , darauf könnt ihr eure kleinen Hintern verwetten !  :)

Germany didn't create the architecture shown in "Covenant".
The Germans copied it from older civilizations.

The Alien prequel idea is that the original creators of these styles of structures came to earth in the distant past and introduced this architecture to humanity.

;)

Hate to get technical here, but brutalist soviet structures are referring to Yugoslavia now known as Croatia. Not Germany.

I don't like the idea of Earth visitation, or Earth being specifically important- just that it was the seed that took to the soil, as I said before- the rest is subconscious.

Erh , ... but probably we have invented the Pretzel or at least , I mean it sounds a bit like the german word which actually is typed Bretzel .
But  ;) ok . I think my comment was more related to the secret meaning of  the " pretzel " . Hehe . Anyways , I was not spoofing around or pointing out something attributed (?) to architecture . To me it doesn ´t make much sense if the storyline develops like "they discover some ancient scripture or pictures inside of caves" which will only lead to some sort of end of the road scenario( probably describes it best , or let ´s say good enough).

And ok , technically , structure a.s.o. - H.R Giger who used to come up with the first designs for Alien , I guess , he is from Switzerland ...
but that ´s not too important , unless one wants to discuss about where these architecture models or call it what you will , originally came from ( right besides - you probably know that , sure - Switzerland is not Germany .
Anyways , I rather dislike the Covenant storyline . Aaaaand here it goes :  " Pretzel ! "   ;D   

Quote from: Gaunchola on Aug 31, 2018, 06:51:53 AM
Erh , ... but probably we have invented the Pretzel or at least , I mean it sounds a bit like the german word which actually is typed Bretzel .
But  ;) ok . I think my comment was more related to the secret meaning of  the " pretzel " . Hehe . Anyways , I was not spoofing around or pointing out something attributed (?) to architecture . To me it doesn ´t make much sense if the storyline develops like "they discover some ancient scripture or pictures inside of caves" which will only lead to some sort of end of the road scenario( probably describes it best , or let ´s say good enough).

And ok , technically , structure a.s.o. - H.R Giger who used to come up with the first designs for Alien , I guess , he is from Switzerland ...
but that ´s not too important , unless one wants to discuss about where these architecture models or call it what you will , originally came from ( right besides - you probably know that , sure - Switzerland is not Germany .
Anyways , I rather dislike the Covenant storyline . Aaaaand here it goes :  " Pretzel ! "   ;D   

I think I see your point. Here we are in a move forum which focuses on science fiction / horror films where lots of viewers just watch them for the scares/thrills.
You might think, 'what does it matter who first created the style of architecture in "Covenant". It looks like something I've seen in Germany.' 
You might wonder why am I being so nerdy?
'Why so serious?'
Isn't this all a joke? For you that seems to be true.

My answer is first based on the context of the thread which began with ancient philosophy / architecture.
And second, that "Prometheus" connects to actual non fiction ancient sculptures (altered for the movie in the crew briefing scene).
The city in "Covenant" has architecture with designs based on ancient cities in our world.

* My point is that "Prometheus" and "Covenant" set up a nerdy topic about ancient art / structures in our world.

- Anyway, I'm fine with your joke. I've just added something to it.

;) 

Part of interview with Matt Hatton and Dane Hallett regarding Alien: Covenant - David's Drawings:

QuoteDid you create any of your own "David mythology" while creating these images? Any backstory that wasn't provided for you?

Dane: David's actions, as described in the script, gave us an excellent understanding of his psyche, so that was a great jumping off point. But Matt and I are both so heavily steeped in the themes of the Alien universe that it didn't take long before we were entrusted to pretty much represent the character of David in all forms beyond his physical appearance. The illustrations and accompanying text were allowed to evolve at our discretion, which means that I personally consider every drawing and notation a part of Davids mythology. Specifically, I would make artistic choices while thinking of him as a character who was capable of true love in the way that a calculated serial killer might believe that they too 'truly love' their victims, as such, there are quite a few deformed (post experimented on) engineers in my catalog. 

Matt: Yep. As above, getting into the character's sociopathy meant thinking of what he might have been up to. I popped in little stories about the plant that looked a little like a native spider and implications of narrow escapes from those spiders, undersea journeys and so on.

One thing that people have commented on was the aesthetic discrepancy between the monolithic classical structures of the city and Engineers themselves, and the Giger aesthetic in the spacesuits they wear and ships they fly. It was my first big question on reading the script. Beyond the obvious visual metaphors referencing classical architecture and Michelangelo's David as visual shorthand to tell the audience this was an ancient and powerful race, I tried in my little way to use the progress of civilization and technology to bridge the seeming anachronism.

So when they achieved space travel and moved beyond functional shapes and structures, aesthetics became more of a concern. By putting that classic Giger shape language into the drawings of their native flora and fauna, Dane and I showed that the engineers were referencing the obvious for this very divergent look. There's a visual segue between functional/just mechanical pipes and forms on spaceships to the more elegant details on the juggernaut/derelict. And you can infer through the internal logic/look and structures/shape language of the imagery/their native surroundings that biomechanics was indeed an evolution not an anachronism. I had David seeing their city and vast structures enduring even through their advancement as evidence of hubris. Of course!

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2018/09/04/exclusive-alien-covenant-davids-drawings-is-a-must-have-for-xenomorph-fans

Quote from: Ingwar on Sep 05, 2018, 08:20:50 AM
Part of interview with Matt Hatton and Dane Hallett regarding Alien: Covenant - David's Drawings:

QuoteDid you create any of your own "David mythology" while creating these images? Any backstory that wasn't provided for you?

Dane: David's actions, as described in the script, gave us an excellent understanding of his psyche, so that was a great jumping off point. But Matt and I are both so heavily steeped in the themes of the Alien universe that it didn't take long before we were entrusted to pretty much represent the character of David in all forms beyond his physical appearance. The illustrations and accompanying text were allowed to evolve at our discretion, which means that I personally consider every drawing and notation a part of Davids mythology. Specifically, I would make artistic choices while thinking of him as a character who was capable of true love in the way that a calculated serial killer might believe that they too 'truly love' their victims, as such, there are quite a few deformed (post experimented on) engineers in my catalog. 

Matt: Yep. As above, getting into the character's sociopathy meant thinking of what he might have been up to. I popped in little stories about the plant that looked a little like a native spider and implications of narrow escapes from those spiders, undersea journeys and so on.

One thing that people have commented on was the aesthetic discrepancy between the monolithic classical structures of the city and Engineers themselves, and the Giger aesthetic in the spacesuits they wear and ships they fly. It was my first big question on reading the script. Beyond the obvious visual metaphors referencing classical architecture and Michelangelo's David as visual shorthand to tell the audience this was an ancient and powerful race, I tried in my little way to use the progress of civilization and technology to bridge the seeming anachronism.

So when they achieved space travel and moved beyond functional shapes and structures, aesthetics became more of a concern. By putting that classic Giger shape language into the drawings of their native flora and fauna, Dane and I showed that the engineers were referencing the obvious for this very divergent look. There's a visual segue between functional/just mechanical pipes and forms on spaceships to the more elegant details on the juggernaut/derelict. And you can infer through the internal logic/look and structures/shape language of the imagery/their native surroundings that biomechanics was indeed an evolution not an anachronism. I had David seeing their city and vast structures enduring even through their advancement as evidence of hubris. Of course!

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2018/09/04/exclusive-alien-covenant-davids-drawings-is-a-must-have-for-xenomorph-fans

Thank you for the link. Great pictures & interview. Some topics;

* "the aesthetic discrepancy between the monolithic classical structures of the city and Engineers themselves, and the Giger aesthetic in the spacesuits they wear and ships they fly."

To me this blend of artistic styles remains a mystery.
The Engineers remain mostly an unknown.
We know that they came to earth in ancient times and influenced human civilization. So, it made sense for Jon Spaihts to have the Engineers be the creators of ancient earth architecture/art.

But why did the Engineers have the Giger aesthetic? These film artists can speculate that the Engineers copied plants and animals.
In the end these artists do not know and neither does the viewer.
- The Engineers don't tell their story either verbally or in writing.
And I think that Ridley wants to keep in that way; to keep the audience guessing and debating about the Engineers. 

* David and Shaw;

QuoteThe final thing was what happened to Shaw. While we knew she was dead by the time of Covenant and told that she's been brutally tortured and to show that, we weren't given specifics...
He may have even killed and resurrected her multiple times - we saw in Prometheus they could reanimate a corpse. He both worships and abhors her, it's not just one nor the other...
Some people see the horrible fate/fates of Shaw as some kind of hate for the character, but for me having an appropriately horrified reaction proves that (he) cared for her and simultaneously shows in an awful way just what a monster (under the surface) David has become.

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2018/09/04/exclusive-alien-covenant-davids-drawings-is-a-must-have-for-xenomorph-fans

Nice summary of this love / hate duality in David.

;) 

Quote from: Ingwar on Sep 05, 2018, 08:20:50 AM
Part of interview with Matt Hatton and Dane Hallett regarding Alien: Covenant - David's Drawings:

QuoteDid you create any of your own "David mythology" while creating these images? Any backstory that wasn't provided for you?

Dane: David's actions, as described in the script, gave us an excellent understanding of his psyche, so that was a great jumping off point. But Matt and I are both so heavily steeped in the themes of the Alien universe that it didn't take long before we were entrusted to pretty much represent the character of David in all forms beyond his physical appearance. The illustrations and accompanying text were allowed to evolve at our discretion, which means that I personally consider every drawing and notation a part of Davids mythology. Specifically, I would make artistic choices while thinking of him as a character who was capable of true love in the way that a calculated serial killer might believe that they too 'truly love' their victims, as such, there are quite a few deformed (post experimented on) engineers in my catalog. 

Matt: Yep. As above, getting into the character's sociopathy meant thinking of what he might have been up to. I popped in little stories about the plant that looked a little like a native spider and implications of narrow escapes from those spiders, undersea journeys and so on.

One thing that people have commented on was the aesthetic discrepancy between the monolithic classical structures of the city and Engineers themselves, and the Giger aesthetic in the spacesuits they wear and ships they fly. It was my first big question on reading the script. Beyond the obvious visual metaphors referencing classical architecture and Michelangelo's David as visual shorthand to tell the audience this was an ancient and powerful race, I tried in my little way to use the progress of civilization and technology to bridge the seeming anachronism.

So when they achieved space travel and moved beyond functional shapes and structures, aesthetics became more of a concern. By putting that classic Giger shape language into the drawings of their native flora and fauna, Dane and I showed that the engineers were referencing the obvious for this very divergent look. There's a visual segue between functional/just mechanical pipes and forms on spaceships to the more elegant details on the juggernaut/derelict. And you can infer through the internal logic/look and structures/shape language of the imagery/their native surroundings that biomechanics was indeed an evolution not an anachronism. I had David seeing their city and vast structures enduring even through their advancement as evidence of hubris. Of course!

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2018/09/04/exclusive-alien-covenant-davids-drawings-is-a-must-have-for-xenomorph-fans

Yep, you can find Giger's vibe in plants, tree roots, insects and other arthropods. So to my own surprise, I'm digging that interpretation of biomechanics aesthetics.

(https://i.imgur.com/Nl17gJq.jpg)

The humanoid inside the suit doesn't displease me entirely, but I would have liked something more akin to the symbiotic armor-like-creature of Guyver anime. I.e the suit, and the user are two separate entities  8)

(https://i.imgur.com/8AzaEco.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/kihMRgT.gif)

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Sep 09, 2018, 05:09:20 AM

Quote from: Ingwar on Sep 05, 2018, 08:20:50 AM
Part of interview with Matt Hatton and Dane Hallett regarding Alien: Covenant - David's Drawings:

QuoteDid you create any of your own "David mythology" while creating these images? Any backstory that wasn't provided for you?

Dane: David's actions, as described in the script, gave us an excellent understanding of his psyche, so that was a great jumping off point. But Matt and I are both so heavily steeped in the themes of the Alien universe that it didn't take long before we were entrusted to pretty much represent the character of David in all forms beyond his physical appearance. The illustrations and accompanying text were allowed to evolve at our discretion, which means that I personally consider every drawing and notation a part of Davids mythology. Specifically, I would make artistic choices while thinking of him as a character who was capable of true love in the way that a calculated serial killer might believe that they too 'truly love' their victims, as such, there are quite a few deformed (post experimented on) engineers in my catalog. 

Matt: Yep. As above, getting into the character's sociopathy meant thinking of what he might have been up to. I popped in little stories about the plant that looked a little like a native spider and implications of narrow escapes from those spiders, undersea journeys and so on.

One thing that people have commented on was the aesthetic discrepancy between the monolithic classical structures of the city and Engineers themselves, and the Giger aesthetic in the spacesuits they wear and ships they fly. It was my first big question on reading the script. Beyond the obvious visual metaphors referencing classical architecture and Michelangelo's David as visual shorthand to tell the audience this was an ancient and powerful race, I tried in my little way to use the progress of civilization and technology to bridge the seeming anachronism.

So when they achieved space travel and moved beyond functional shapes and structures, aesthetics became more of a concern. By putting that classic Giger shape language into the drawings of their native flora and fauna, Dane and I showed that the engineers were referencing the obvious for this very divergent look. There's a visual segue between functional/just mechanical pipes and forms on spaceships to the more elegant details on the juggernaut/derelict. And you can infer through the internal logic/look and structures/shape language of the imagery/their native surroundings that biomechanics was indeed an evolution not an anachronism. I had David seeing their city and vast structures enduring even through their advancement as evidence of hubris. Of course!

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2018/09/04/exclusive-alien-covenant-davids-drawings-is-a-must-have-for-xenomorph-fans

Yep, you can find Giger's vibe in plants, tree roots, insects and other arthropods. So to my own surprise, I'm digging that interpretation of biomechanics aesthetics.

(https://i.imgur.com/Nl17gJq.jpg)

The humanoid inside the suit doesn't displease me entirely, but I would have liked something more akin to the symbiotic armor-like-creature of Guyver anime. I.e the suit, and the user are two separate entities  8)

https://i.imgur.com/8AzaEco.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kihMRgT.gif

Giger's aesthetic can be connected to insects, and other exoskeleton creatures.
But Giger blended that with humanoid anatomy.

This still leaves the question, why did the Engineers use those kinds of designs for their ships and genetically engineered creatures? 

;)

Quote from: bb-15 on Sep 18, 2018, 05:00:29 AM
This still leaves the question, why did the Engineers use those kinds of designs for their ships and genetically engineered creatures? 

;)

From what I remember from David's writings (could be wrong):

Those designs are tested and tried by time and perfected by evolution. Think there was comparison to some kind of shell or shelled creature.
So they applied those designs to their ships to achieve the same kind of perfection.

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Sep 18, 2018, 03:42:01 PM

Quote from: bb-15 on Sep 18, 2018, 05:00:29 AM
This still leaves the question, why did the Engineers use those kinds of designs for their ships and genetically engineered creatures? 

;)

From what I remember from David's writings (could be wrong):

Those designs are tested and tried by time and perfected by evolution. Think there was comparison to some kind of shell or shelled creature.
So they applied those designs to their ships to achieve the same kind of perfection.

Yeah, maybe there is no such thing as elephant man, but the deconstruction of natural design on others life forms.

(https://i.imgur.com/g50Xu2X.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/EerQgmq.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/pGWOq4y.jpg)

And what we call trunk / pipe is actually the reverse engineering of a cephalopod shell, more specifically the body-chamber / cavity in the shell.

(https://i.imgur.com/9kfU67R.jpg)     (https://i.imgur.com/UGUtKqj.jpg)

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Sep 18, 2018, 07:18:39 PM

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Sep 18, 2018, 03:42:01 PM

Quote from: bb-15 on Sep 18, 2018, 05:00:29 AM
This still leaves the question, why did the Engineers use those kinds of designs for their ships and genetically engineered creatures? 

;)

From what I remember from David's writings (could be wrong):

Those designs are tested and tried by time and perfected by evolution. Think there was comparison to some kind of shell or shelled creature.
So they applied those designs to their ships to achieve the same kind of perfection.

Yeah, maybe there is no such thing as elephant man, but the deconstruction of natural design on others life forms.

https://i.imgur.com/g50Xu2X.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/EerQgmq.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/pGWOq4y.jpg

And what we call trunk / pipe is actually the reverse engineering of a cephalopod shell, more specifically the body-chamber / cavity in the shell.

https://i.imgur.com/9kfU67R.jpg     https://i.imgur.com/UGUtKqj.jpg

Thank's kind of cool when you compare Cthulu and a Nautilus
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/lovecraft/images/c/cf/Screenshot_20171018-093500.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/350?cb=20171020174137)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Nautilus_Palau.JPG/220px-Nautilus_Palau.JPG)

Quote from: muthur9000 on Sep 18, 2018, 11:52:21 PM

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Sep 18, 2018, 07:18:39 PM

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Sep 18, 2018, 03:42:01 PM

Quote from: bb-15 on Sep 18, 2018, 05:00:29 AM
This still leaves the question, why did the Engineers use those kinds of designs for their ships and genetically engineered creatures? 

;)

From what I remember from David's writings (could be wrong):

Those designs are tested and tried by time and perfected by evolution. Think there was comparison to some kind of shell or shelled creature.
So they applied those designs to their ships to achieve the same kind of perfection.

Yeah, maybe there is no such thing as elephant man, but the deconstruction of natural design on others life forms.

https://i.imgur.com/g50Xu2X.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/EerQgmq.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/pGWOq4y.jpg

And what we call trunk / pipe is actually the reverse engineering of a cephalopod shell, more specifically the body-chamber / cavity in the shell.

https://i.imgur.com/9kfU67R.jpg     https://i.imgur.com/UGUtKqj.jpg

Thank's kind of cool when you compare Cthulu and a Nautilus
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/lovecraft/images/c/cf/Screenshot_20171018-093500.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/350?cb=20171020174137
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Nautilus_Palau.JPG/220px-Nautilus_Palau.JPG

Planet 4 should be renamed as R'lyeh :laugh:

Got lots of water.

Since Engineers have the same anatomy as humans, I wonder if they were designing spaceships based on their own bones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyoid_bone).

(https://i.imgur.com/Suh9Xh8.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/4rI0Zbx.gif)

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Sep 19, 2018, 02:07:21 AM
Since Engineers have the same anatomy as humans, I wonder if they were designing spaceships based on their own bones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyoid_bone).

(https://i.imgur.com/Suh9Xh8.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/4rI0Zbx.gif

It's been called the horshoe ship so maybe it's from the horseshoe crab's shell? The lining has a similar curve.

They're old, primitive creatures. To make sure I googled them and it turns out they're considered living fossils (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_fossil).
Other creatures listed are the nautilus and goblin shark  :)

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/05/29/nyregion/29NATURE/29NATURE-articleLarge.jpg)

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Sep 19, 2018, 02:25:28 AM

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Sep 19, 2018, 02:07:21 AM
Since Engineers have the same anatomy as humans, I wonder if they were designing spaceships based on their own bones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyoid_bone).

(https://i.imgur.com/Suh9Xh8.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/4rI0Zbx.gif

It's been called the horshoe ship so maybe it's from the horseshoe crab's shell? The lining has a similar curve.

They're old, primitive creatures. To make sure I googled them and it turns out they're considered living fossils (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_fossil).
Other creatures listed are the nautilus and goblin shark  :)

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/05/29/nyregion/29NATURE/29NATURE-articleLarge.jpg

Interesting and yeah, we talked about nautilus in the last page, and I'm aware of living fossils (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=19454.msg2314348#msg2314348). But yeah, the horseshoe crab is amazing and I think I saw one in David's drawings, I could be wrong though. Sharks are an interesting subject too. The Neomorph/Deacon's jaws are similar to the goblin shark ones, although in the case of the Deacon is more like a pharyngeal jaw (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharyngeal_jaw). Also, at the Derelict there is a hammer-head-like structure at the end of one of its arms. :laugh:

However, one thing is Giger's biomechanics and another one is the Gigeresque philosophy from the prequels...which clearly implies that Engineers are evoking elements of nature such as the flora and fauna from their homeworld in their designs. And I'm sure that we both agree on that.  :)

But the fact that they have solar panels in their town, kinda tells me that their culture is similar to the Na'vi from Avatar, with the whole Space Gaia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia) thing.

Interesting rid is an atheist yet mythologizes with engineers as "ten apostles" and has said jesus was an engineer. For an atheist, he is a bit obsessed with religious metaphor

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Sep 19, 2018, 02:42:19 AM

Interesting and yeah, we talked about nautilus in the last page, and I'm aware of living fossils (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=19454.msg2314348#msg2314348). But yeah, the horseshoe crab is amazing and I think I saw one in David's drawings, I could be wrong though. Sharks are an interesting subject too. The Neomorph/Deacon's jaws are similar to the goblin shark ones, although in the case of the Deacon is more like a pharyngeal jaw (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharyngeal_jaw). Also, at the Derelict there is a hammer-head-like structure at the end of one of its arms. :laugh:

However, one thing is Giger's biomechanics and another one is the Gigeresque philosophy from the prequels...which clearly implies that Engineers are evoking elements of nature such as the flora and fauna from their homeworld in their designs. And I'm sure that we both agree on that.  :)

But the fact that they have solar panels in their town, kinda tells me that their culture is similar to the Na'vi from Avatar, with the whole Space Gaia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia) thing.

A while ago I came across this page. https://twitter.com/Extinct_AnimaIs
If you're into extinct animals and stuff, you might like it.

Love those fauna and flora elements. But I always had a thing for nature in general. It's just so fascinating.

Just found this, you might have posted this animal before.

The horshoe shaped treehopper.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-2f81R1UlP5c%2FUmhSvfMdTKI%2FAAAAAAAABMY%2Fo-aZ3pzAvr0%2Fs1600%2FPresentaci%25C3%25B3n2.jpg&hash=35fdc597cc7d287f16cff24c355bc2ff14ba3d40)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1280/4680501416_ece6dea9fd_b.jpg)

I'll have to add the Space Gaia thing to my reading list.

LOL Do you remember the xeno-shark from the concept art?

(https://i.imgur.com/psnqCeA.jpg)

Well, there's one of these at David's lab  :laugh:

(https://i.imgur.com/TlXN1hB.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/bKhcrNs.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/11fHdgh.jpg)

And something similar to the unused early version of the Neomorph ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/XROamKN.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/QwOHNa8.jpg)

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Sep 19, 2018, 04:15:36 AM

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Sep 19, 2018, 02:42:19 AM

Interesting and yeah, we talked about nautilus in the last page, and I'm aware of living fossils (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=19454.msg2314348#msg2314348). But yeah, the horseshoe crab is amazing and I think I saw one in David's drawings, I could be wrong though. Sharks are an interesting subject too. The Neomorph/Deacon's jaws are similar to the goblin shark ones, although in the case of the Deacon is more like a pharyngeal jaw (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharyngeal_jaw). Also, at the Derelict there is a hammer-head-like structure at the end of one of its arms. :laugh:

However, one thing is Giger's biomechanics and another one is the Gigeresque philosophy from the prequels...which clearly implies that Engineers are evoking elements of nature such as the flora and fauna from their homeworld in their designs. And I'm sure that we both agree on that.  :)

But the fact that they have solar panels in their town, kinda tells me that their culture is similar to the Na'vi from Avatar, with the whole Space Gaia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia) thing.

A while ago I came across this page. https://twitter.com/Extinct_AnimaIs
If you're into extinct animals and stuff, you might like it.

Love those fauna and flora elements. But I always had a thing for nature in general. It's just so fascinating.

Just found this, you might have posted this animal before.

The horshoe shaped treehopper.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-2f81R1UlP5c%2FUmhSvfMdTKI%2FAAAAAAAABMY%2Fo-aZ3pzAvr0%2Fs1600%2FPresentaci%25C3%25B3n2.jpg&hash=35fdc597cc7d287f16cff24c355bc2ff14ba3d40)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1280/4680501416_ece6dea9fd_b.jpg)

I'll have to add the Space Gaia thing to my reading list.

Yeah, such a natural and funny coincidence. Good find mate  ;)

(https://i.imgur.com/s56pEwE.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZWX6k5W.jpg)

And speaking of living fossils, David used prehistoric-looking animals in his experiments. There is a translucent creature a little similar to the Horseshoe crab:

(https://i.imgur.com/qH75kga.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/KsGEZq6.jpg)

And a prehistoric-looking sloth, megafauna from the Pleistocene in real life (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene).

(https://i.imgur.com/fMibBYj.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/zniKoS7.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/4hEGooj.jpg)

Besides, the David's drawing that evokes some kind of barbaric ritual is based on the work of the American photographer Joel-Peter Witkin. Specifically a piece called *Woman Breastfeeding An Eel*.

(https://i.imgur.com/zO3RZI7.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/K6GWMke.jpg)

Just found it this while I was looking for an Alien themed Ouroboros, for a thread (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=60628.0).

(https://i.imgur.com/90uHbUs.jpg)

Saw a documentary called Mussolini, Monuments and Modernism and a couple of things caught my eye.



Celtic Tumuli, Ireland (LV-223 facility)

(https://assets.answersingenesis.org/img/cms/content/contentnode/header_image/am/v11/n2/newgrange.jpg)
(https://geografosubjetivo.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/newgrange2.jpg)

Necropolis of Pantalitica, Sicily (mountains sides around Engineer City)

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sicily.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Funesco-sites-syracuse-and-the-rocky-necropolis-of-pantalica.jpg&hash=15eb1e7f855643e0431e998cc97fea14673d76af)

Memorial Of Redipuglia (the square and stairs in front of the Engineer citadel)
(https://www.magicoveneto.it/friuli/Carso/Sacrario-di-Redipuglia-Battaglie-del-Carso-C01.jpg)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.itinerarigrandeguerra.it%2FProxyVFS.axd%2Fmain%2Cmain%2Fr18665%2FNO_A_TERZI-_Sacrario_Redipuglia_05_-Ph_Gabriele_Menis-jpg&hash=b020aa4d7dcad5a797055b975e0a7c248ab87d55)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.isonzobattlefields.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F09%2Fredipuglia_1900x600.jpg&hash=1ac88d8dd26ffefe2d46828a3bda4c01b3b537ab)

Stadio dei Marmi, Foro Mussolini (I imagine the arena/colloseum from an earlier draft looking something like this)

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Lbe5MjFo5wE/hqdefault.jpg)
(https://secure.i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01150/arts-graphics-2004_1150475a.jpg)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frolfgross.dreamhosters.com%2FRome-Guide%2FModArchitecture%2FModArchitecture_html_177e1026.jpg&hash=3ec9e18c34c52787d6ee2fb2030b09f82dbbb900)

---

While searching for images I saw this. We already compared Engineer City to Vatican City. Like the square, with the circle in the middle.
But now I noticed the pillar walls to the left and right of the circle are also similar. Just like the gate in the back of the square.
And the point of view is similar to David's on the balcony.

(https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.1643996.1388785888!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_620_330/image.jpg)

Here's my theory based on the architecture of the cathedral

https://yutani.blog/2018/10/11/the-engineer-cathedral/

I love it! I had no idea that a World War II monument was the inspiration for the crown-like structure at the top of the Engineer's monastery or the whole symbolism behind the domed entrance to the temple.  But just as interesting was your theory about Planet 4. I must be blind as I had never thought too much about the parallel with the Earth-like-planet of the beginning of Prometheus.  :laugh:

Quote from: muthur9000 on Oct 10, 2018, 01:33:39 PM
Here's my theory based on the architecture of the cathedral

https://yutani.blog/2018/10/11/the-engineer-cathedral/

Nice one!

Would love to visit the place. And where they shot Prometheus and Covenant.

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Oct 10, 2018, 10:34:03 PM
I love it! I had no idea that a World War II monument was the inspiration for the crown-like structure at the top of the Engineer's monastery or the whole symbolism behind the domed entrance to the temple.  But just as interesting was your theory about Planet 4. I must be blind as I had never thought too much about the parallel with the Earth-like-planet of the beginning of Prometheus.  :laugh:

Thanks, I appreciate the feedback. Over-analysis is my thing, if there's a vague connection you can rely on me to find it XD

---

Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Oct 10, 2018, 11:08:12 PM

Quote from: muthur9000 on Oct 10, 2018, 01:33:39 PM
Here's my theory based on the architecture of the cathedral

https://yutani.blog/2018/10/11/the-engineer-cathedral/

Nice one!

Would love to visit the place. And where they shot Prometheus and Covenant.

My husband's lineage goes back to Yugoslavia/Croatia, so I will definitely be going there one day. I bought the Spomenik Database book and the dust cover is a map showing where all the monuments are. I really want to go to all those places, to see this slice of history would be amazing.

Thank you for all your hard-work MUTHUR.

Quote from: The Old One on Oct 11, 2018, 07:50:12 AM
Thank you for all your hard-work MUTHUR.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read it, much appreciated!

Wishful thinking, I know. But perhaps the chosen one for the sacrifice was being watched by other kind of people. Not the Elders of his kind, but the real Jockeys.

(https://i.imgur.com/84yiaVA.jpg)

I doubt RS had that in mind, but I do wonder if he had something of that nature up his sleeve, as a revelation for the finale.

I hope so!

Agreed.

Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Oct 13, 2018, 08:29:55 AM
Wishful thinking, I know. But perhaps the chosen one for the sacrifice was being watched by other kind of people. Not the Elders of his kind, but the real Jockeys.

https://i.imgur.com/84yiaVA.jpg

It can't be, I think in the extra deleted scenes it shows other engineers on Earth right before they bid him farewell. Unless that's driven by Space Jockeys, would have been cool...really wish those elephant-like headed space jockeys exist.

Bring back the true Space Jockey as an Alpha race to the Engineers Fox!

Yes, please do.

Just please, for the love of God, don't call them "Alphas."

srsly

It is kinda funny that the pre-Prometheus name for the Jockeys in the comics was 'The Giants." Personally, I'd go with 'Titans' or "Jotun," just to really drive the mythology theme home, but 'Giants' works just as well for describing the more mysterious, primal things that came before the gods...

... And were overthrown by them?!?! (bum bumm BUUUUUUMMM!)

Quote from: Naginata on Oct 20, 2018, 03:49:38 PM
It is kinda funny that the pre-Prometheus name for the Jockeys in the comics was 'The Giants." Personally, I'd go with 'Titans' or "Jotun," just to really drive the mythology theme home, but 'Giants' works just as well for describing the more mysterious, primal things that came before the gods...

... And were overthrown by them?!?! (bum bumm BUUUUUUMMM!)

That's a pretty neat connection on the mythology theme.
Funnily enough, AvP2 called them "Pilots", but I think that was mostly storytelling shorthand so the audience would make the connection to 'Alien'. Calling them "Space Jockeys" might have been a bit too on-the-nose and fourth-wall-breaking. :P

But hey, we live in a world where David literally plays the theme song to 'Prometheus' on a flute, so what do I know.

That said, "pilots" is an interesting term to use if we're going with the broader metaphysical sense - a pilot implies one who is in control and is guiding the course of their journey, just as the Engineers guided the creation of life.

My headcanon is that the Giants created the Engineers (as in the pale giant humans of the prequels) as uplifted go-betweens between them and humanity; the Engineers were meant to guide humanity, and similar uplifted sentients existed for other species.

Another headcanon of mine is that the Predators killed and ate theirs, because they're assholes and I love them.

Quote from: Naginata on Oct 20, 2018, 07:07:19 PM
My headcanon is that the Giants created the Engineers (as in the pale giant humans of the prequels) as uplifted go-betweens between them and humanity; the Engineers were meant to guide humanity, and similar uplifted sentients existed for other species.

That brings up an interesting idea of if there was a falling-out between these "Giants" and the Engineers, because by the time of Prometheus, they seem to be in control.
Although it's still an interesting prospect that the Engineers' rage against humanity was all "ordered by the (engineers') gods"

Quote from: Naginata on Oct 20, 2018, 07:07:19 PMAnother headcanon of mine is that the Predators killed and ate theirs, because they're assholes and I love them.

That's similar to one of the reasons I think the "Alien vs Predator" concept is so entertaining - you've got this scary ultimate space-monster that does unspeakable horrors, and the Predators' immediate reaction is, "Let's hunt it for fun, if we get killed then oh well!"

I think the Predators' attitude of "you ain't scary, f**k you" is pretty funny, and it's equally funny when you start applying it to other antagonists, be it Engineers or wacky crossovers like Batman or whatever.

That's why I think an (so obviously non-canon it hurts) Godzilla crossover could be entertaining; a Predator comes to Earth to hunt boring ole' humans, sees THAT come roaring out of the water, and its reaction is to get the biggest boner in the history of the universe.

In all seriousness, though, I wouldn't mind the Predators playing the demonic foil to the Engineers' god-like role.

The Space Jockeys are referred to as Mala'kaks in Aliens Original Sin. Which I think is a decent name.

Titans, Pilots, Giants, Engineers > "Mala'kaks"

It's just a species name, like "Yautja".

Yeah, but you need a bit more distance between the audience and the Jockeys for them to be properly Lovecraftian, and giving them a species name undermines that a little. Makes them a little too familiar, you know? Besides, if those things are as advanced as they'd have to be to do the stuff they're portrayed as doing, then concepts like biological taxonomy might not even apply anymore...

They could always retcon "Mala'Kak" to be what they're called by other species; maybe it's a Predator word meaning "those guys we stole the xenomorphs from"  ;D

Quote from: Xenomrph on Oct 21, 2018, 04:47:58 PM
It's just a species name, like "Yautja".

Likely came from poking somebody in the butt and they screamed Yowza!

And I guess it...kinda stuck.

Quote from: Naginata on Oct 21, 2018, 07:10:41 PM
Yeah, but you need a bit more distance between the audience and the Jockeys for them to be properly Lovecraftian, and giving them a species name undermines that a little. Makes them a little too familiar, you know? Besides, if those things are as advanced as they'd have to be to do the stuff they're portrayed as doing, then concepts like biological taxonomy might not even apply anymore...

They could always retcon "Mala'Kak" to be what they're called by other species; maybe it's a Predator word meaning "those guys we stole the xenomorphs from"  ;D

Aye, If you put too much hard science on the Space Jockey, you are distancing such a concept from the Lovecraftian corners. Also, Mala'Kak sounds like a Star Wars name.


On the other hand (and if we want the cosmic horror back) why not explore the bizarre architecture of the original Derelict. I mean, the spaceship seems to be a Tardis-like-device: it's bigger on the inside than it is on the outside.


Ok, maybe it's just a movie mistake; or an artistic contradiction like the Space Jockey size. But I'm going to scrap the technical and rational explanations, cos...

a) I'm a nerd.
b) Of the two fanon explanations: 1) The thing is bigger on the inside, 2) It is an underground facility; my favorite is the first one.  8)

So, maybe there is some kind of crazy five-dimensional architecture playing around, with nanotechnology that is constantly expanding things from the inside...or like a timeless structure similar to a space portal, creating links between two or more worlds.  :P




It can be like a sci-fi equivalent of the haunted house concept. However, there is something similar in modern literature. A psychological horror novel (House of Leaves (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Leaves)), written in a very peculiar format (Ergodic literature (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergodic_literature)), about a creepy house that is bigger on the inside...and people slowly descending into madness:





But overall,  I believe that if you give to the science fiction an otherworldly shape, you are successfully entering in the Lovecraft zone. Sadly, is the other way with the prequels. :'(

Almost all creatures of HP Lovecraft do get given names.

I would most prefer the more casual term 'Pilots' because it describes them so perfectly whilst keeping them mysterious but I wouldn't mind Mala'kak as the scientific term.

One Lovecraftian element's surely present: forbidden knowledge or the lack of, being able to drive a person mad  ;D

Indeed.

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Oct 13, 2018, 08:29:55 AM
Wishful thinking, I know. But perhaps the chosen one for the sacrifice was being watched by other kind of people. Not the Elders of his kind, but the real Jockeys.

https://i.imgur.com/84yiaVA.jpg

I felt that at one point, but aren't the engineer's gods supposed to be dead for them to have the pathogen?

And there's the whole "not knowing" who their gods are which I think we should keep with since the reveal of the Engineers/space jockey disappointed so many.

We wouldn't have to see these 'Gods' or 'Elder' Space Jockeys but just hear about them.

Or utilize the Derelict contradiction.

Maybe I'm no the first with this idea, but when I was thinking in the sci-fi movie Dark City while I was replying on another thread (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=60953.msg2330924#msg2330924), I started to have the notion of the Engineers as host of the Space Jockeys.


In the aforementioned film, there are gelatinous spider-like-creatures called Stranger who inhabit the dead human beings in order to carry out their experiments. Maybe I'm reading too much on the idea (or dealing with it in a too literal way), but such idea somehow got a merge with Carlos Huante's jellyfish-like Engineers (and with other works of the artist).

So maybe the Engineers are avatars of the real Jockeys (but in a Matrix style twist, they don't know it, as the Jockeys are implanting fake memories in the albinos.), and they are using them to perform their experiments (like terraforming or bioengineering). The reason? well, perhaps like the Strangers from Dark City; the Jockeys have some kind of phisical limitations or something (the Strangers are photophobic and fearful of water). However, the mere existence of the biomechanical flight suit make the idea ridiculous and pointless, but it was fun any way.  ;D

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Nov 13, 2018, 01:39:51 AM
Maybe I'm no the first with this idea, but when I was thinking in the sci-fi movie Dark City while I was replying on another thread (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=60953.msg2330924#msg2330924), I started to have the notion of the Engineers as host of the Space Jockeys.

(https://i.imgur.com/8F3sAzI.gif)

In the aforementioned film, there are gelatinous spider-like-creatures called Stranger who inhabit the dead human beings in order to carry out their experiments. Maybe I'm reading too much on the idea (or dealing with it in a too literal way), but such idea somehow got a merge with Carlos Huante's jellyfish-like Engineers (and with other works of the artist).

So maybe the Engineers are avatars of the real Jockeys (but in a Matrix style twist, they don't know it, as the Jockeys are implanting fake memories in the albinos.), and they are using them to perform their experiments (like terraforming or bioengineering). The reason? well, perhaps like the Strangers from Dark City; the Jockeys have some kind of phisical limitations or something (the Strangers are photophobic and fearful of water). However, the mere existence of the biomechanical flight suit make the idea ridiculous and pointless, but it was fun any way.  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/PVj88Yq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/snIgOI6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/mJv6YBc.jpg)

It would be interesting too if the Engineers were a form of "psychic shape-shifter," that mirrored the physique and biology of the species that were interacting with them or in their vicinity, which included their DNA. The "xenophage" was a form of distilled of their genetic makeup, and due to their ability to shape-shift, the creatures and life that resulted from their 'cosmic gardening,' took on forms of this ability across the spectrum of life (which, of course, had its own biomechanical omega point - the Alien).

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Nov 13, 2018, 01:39:51 AM
Maybe I'm no the first with this idea, but when I was thinking in the sci-fi movie Dark City while I was replying on another thread (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=60953.msg2330924#msg2330924), I started to have the notion of the Engineers as host of the Space Jockeys.

(https://i.imgur.com/8F3sAzI.gif)

In the aforementioned film, there are gelatinous spider-like-creatures called Stranger who inhabit the dead human beings in order to carry out their experiments. Maybe I'm reading too much on the idea (or dealing with it in a too literal way), but such idea somehow got a merge with Carlos Huante's jellyfish-like Engineers (and with other works of the artist).

So maybe the Engineers are avatars of the real Jockeys (but in a Matrix style twist, they don't know it, as the Jockeys are implanting fake memories in the albinos.), and they are using them to perform their experiments (like terraforming or bioengineering). The reason? well, perhaps like the Strangers from Dark City; the Jockeys have some kind of phisical limitations or something (the Strangers are photophobic and fearful of water). However, the mere existence of the biomechanical flight suit make the idea ridiculous and pointless, but it was fun any way.  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/PVj88Yq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/snIgOI6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/mJv6YBc.jpg)

The host idea is an interesting one which is also used with the Goa'uld in Stargate and several beings in Star Trek such as the Trill.

Though it's tough to blend in with what Jon Spaihts was going for when he created the Engineers in his draft scripts for "Prometheus".

QuoteGiven the age of the wreck as it's characterized in the first Alien movie, my first thought was that these ancient giants must have been the von Daniken‑style aliens who some believe helped to shape ancient civilizations, and raise our early monuments, and, perhaps, even to shape the development of the species itself.
I imagined them as the Engineers who fomented sentient life on earth and then schooled that life into their own image, both cognitively and physically. I suppose the closing idea was that that elephantine alien face of the space jockey was merely a mask. Underneath it, to our astonishment, it would be revealed that they looked like us. Or, perhaps more accurately, that we looked like them.

https://gointothestory.blcklst.com/interview-part-1-jon-spaihts-5cf713ab14c4

* Anyway, I know you wrote that the idea was pointless but maybe there is a way to get from Spaihts' idea for the Space Jockeys/Engineers and hosts.

;)

Quote from: bb-15 on Nov 17, 2018, 09:19:59 AM

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Nov 13, 2018, 01:39:51 AM
Maybe I'm no the first with this idea, but when I was thinking in the sci-fi movie Dark City while I was replying on another thread (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=60953.msg2330924#msg2330924), I started to have the notion of the Engineers as host of the Space Jockeys.

(https://i.imgur.com/8F3sAzI.gif)

In the aforementioned film, there are gelatinous spider-like-creatures called Stranger who inhabit the dead human beings in order to carry out their experiments. Maybe I'm reading too much on the idea (or dealing with it in a too literal way), but such idea somehow got a merge with Carlos Huante's jellyfish-like Engineers (and with other works of the artist).

So maybe the Engineers are avatars of the real Jockeys (but in a Matrix style twist, they don't know it, as the Jockeys are implanting fake memories in the albinos.), and they are using them to perform their experiments (like terraforming or bioengineering). The reason? well, perhaps like the Strangers from Dark City; the Jockeys have some kind of phisical limitations or something (the Strangers are photophobic and fearful of water). However, the mere existence of the biomechanical flight suit make the idea ridiculous and pointless, but it was fun any way.  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/PVj88Yq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/snIgOI6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/mJv6YBc.jpg)

The host idea is an interesting one which is also used with the Goa'uld in Stargate and several beings in Star Trek such as the Trill.

Though it's tough to blend in with what Jon Spaihts was going for when he created the Engineers in his draft scripts for "Prometheus".

QuoteGiven the age of the wreck as it's characterized in the first Alien movie, my first thought was that these ancient giants must have been the von Daniken‑style aliens who some believe helped to shape ancient civilizations, and raise our early monuments, and, perhaps, even to shape the development of the species itself.
I imagined them as the Engineers who fomented sentient life on earth and then schooled that life into their own image, both cognitively and physically. I suppose the closing idea was that that elephantine alien face of the space jockey was merely a mask. Underneath it, to our astonishment, it would be revealed that they looked like us. Or, perhaps more accurately, that we looked like them.

https://gointothestory.blcklst.com/interview-part-1-jon-spaihts-5cf713ab14c4

* Anyway, I know you wrote that the idea was pointless but maybe there is a way to get from Spaihts' idea for the Space Jockeys/Engineers and hosts.

;)

Goa'uld! love these creatures  8)

*The Space Jockey created the Alien in its likeness*

From this parasitic civilization concept applied to the Alien lore, I'm digging:

1) They engineered the Xeno to being like them.

2) They found the most dangerous parasite of the galaxy, and they worshiped it as a superior version of them; the perfect organism.

3) The relationship between the Space Jockeys and the Aliens is like the relationship between humans and gorillas. In that sense, they are genetically related and both species have a common ancestor. Fun fact, I used to believe that the Space Jockeys and Aliens were genetic relatives.

Quote from: bb-15 on Nov 17, 2018, 09:19:59 AM

Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Nov 13, 2018, 01:39:51 AM
Maybe I'm no the first with this idea, but when I was thinking in the sci-fi movie Dark City while I was replying on another thread (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=60953.msg2330924#msg2330924), I started to have the notion of the Engineers as host of the Space Jockeys.

(https://i.imgur.com/8F3sAzI.gif)

In the aforementioned film, there are gelatinous spider-like-creatures called Stranger who inhabit the dead human beings in order to carry out their experiments. Maybe I'm reading too much on the idea (or dealing with it in a too literal way), but such idea somehow got a merge with Carlos Huante's jellyfish-like Engineers (and with other works of the artist).

So maybe the Engineers are avatars of the real Jockeys (but in a Matrix style twist, they don't know it, as the Jockeys are implanting fake memories in the albinos.), and they are using them to perform their experiments (like terraforming or bioengineering). The reason? well, perhaps like the Strangers from Dark City; the Jockeys have some kind of phisical limitations or something (the Strangers are photophobic and fearful of water). However, the mere existence of the biomechanical flight suit make the idea ridiculous and pointless, but it was fun any way.  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/PVj88Yq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/snIgOI6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/mJv6YBc.jpg)

The host idea is an interesting one which is also used with the Goa'uld in Stargate and several beings in Star Trek such as the Trill.

Though it's tough to blend in with what Jon Spaihts was going for when he created the Engineers in his draft scripts for "Prometheus".

QuoteGiven the age of the wreck as it's characterized in the first Alien movie, my first thought was that these ancient giants must have been the von Daniken‑style aliens who some believe helped to shape ancient civilizations, and raise our early monuments, and, perhaps, even to shape the development of the species itself.
I imagined them as the Engineers who fomented sentient life on earth and then schooled that life into their own image, both cognitively and physically. I suppose the closing idea was that that elephantine alien face of the space jockey was merely a mask. Underneath it, to our astonishment, it would be revealed that they looked like us. Or, perhaps more accurately, that we looked like them.

https://gointothestory.blcklst.com/interview-part-1-jon-spaihts-5cf713ab14c4

* Anyway, I know you wrote that the idea was pointless but maybe there is a way to get from Spaihts' idea for the Space Jockeys/Engineers and hosts.

;)

That could easily be reconciled with the fact that "We" are actually a collection of nerve-tentacles and a brain, and this physical body is merely an organic space suit that allows our species to survive on this particular rock orbiting this particular star-system.