Does Prey make Predator: 1718 Non-canon?

Started by Frosty Venom, Aug 13, 2022, 08:09:43 AM

Author
Does Prey make Predator: 1718 Non-canon? (Read 5,605 times)

gantarat

It's not like there is only one flintlock.

SiL

Quote from: gantarat on Aug 16, 2022, 04:09:39 AMIt's not like there is only one flintlock.
A flintlock engraved with "Raphael Adolini 1715" though?

happypred

Unless a lot of shenanigans happened between 1718 and 1719, yeah, looks like the pirate story is retconned

Frosty Venom

Quote from: happypred on Aug 16, 2022, 06:46:43 AMUnless a lot of shenanigans happened between 1718 and 1719, yeah, looks like the pirate story is retconned

And a lot can happen in a year

SuperiorIronman

Hunting Grounds unintentionally provided an out.

The flintlock pistol trophy from that game reads; "A flintlock style pistol that was wielded by a notorious pirate of the Caribbean"

1718 is set in an island around Guinea which works well enough so despite the change you can still include 1718 on the timeline, the pistol just can't have been owned by P2 Adolini nor can Golden Angel be Greyback.

Adolini's name however is spelled differently between the two engravings. It is "Rafael Andolini" in 1718, not P2 and Prey's "Raphael Adolini" (and assuming it wasn't an n, that's still Rafael to Raphael). So while 1718 is intended to be the same guy, we can now attribute the mistake to a separate character. And otherwise he'd have to be given he dies a year beforehand. The pistol in 1718 also has some decorative engravings which the cinematic pistol does not. Ultimately by coincidence Raphael and Rafael have engraved pistols within the same year and both die within a year of each other to encounters with a Predator.




BlueMarsalis79

I think... if including it at all I'd just prefer to interpret the graphic novel as Prey's story, but a Eurocentric interpretation, passed down by people talking about the demon who makes trophies of men.

Wweyland

Is there any indication in the comic that it's actually Greyback? In addition to the quote "Take it" of course.

Mr.Turok

If not the cool pirate incarnation of Raphael, I think its also the display of Predator honor and even sympathy of the comic added to not only the character but the species as a whole when Greyback recognized Raphael as a honorable warrior but went far as to do a burial for him and leave his sword to him. Like that alone is such a great expansion of Predator characterization and I think I'd be more ok with the decanonization if we get something like this in the future films with more Predator writing of how it thinks and moves. 

As for the  decanonization, it kind of sucks that he was just killed off like that. Least he didn't wanna be a douche to Naru and her brother. I actually did frown when Feral got him, was like damm that was really a wasted character right there. Could have been adopted into the tribe or perhaps this was the start of his pirate days, I mean he had a missing leg...already a great set up for a peg leg, and who else have peg legs then pirates?! Honestly, this part alone really did knock the film from a 9 to an 8/10 for me, just decades of having the old but badass incarnation of Raphael only withered down to a red shirt really sucked.

BlueMarsalis79

I like that the pistol's ultimately more important than he was personally, it turns out Raphael Adolini's just a guy at the end of the day, not just good or evil but existing somewhere more ambiguous.

Yeah he's killed like it is nothing but it's important to the plot the way that it happens, that reminded me of AlienĀ³ in Prey and made me very happy, in that it feels quite authentically dismissive of traditional Hollywood archetypes in favour of approaching realism.

That's just how I like Alien, and now it's just how I like Predator.

Mr.Turok

Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Aug 18, 2022, 09:19:08 PMI like that the pistol's ultimately more important than he was personally, it turns out Raphael Adolini's just a guy at the end of the day, not just good or evil but existing somewhere more ambiguous.

Yeah he's killed like it is nothing but it's important to the plot the way that it happens, that reminded me of AlienĀ³ in Prey and made me very happy, in that it feels quite authentically dismissive of traditional Hollywood archetypes in favour of approaching realism.

That's just how I like Alien, and now it's just how I like Predator.
I guess that means the pistol can still have a strong background with it since it's in Naru's hands. Like one that can surpass the old pistol's story. Like rather from the hands of a badass pirate, its from the hands of a badass Comanche warrior. Guess it's just me wanting more, especially since the comic is greatly liked in the fandom, it's hard to move from that. You make an interesting point, as like in real life, some weapons passed down weren't even used by the original owner but the one after in some famous battle and all that.

OpenMaw

It doesn't fit with the new continuity, no. It was never part of any official Canon. The standing rule of thumb with canon is, movies, and then certain pieces of ancillary media get quasi-canon status based on what TPTB say. The movies can come along at anytime and utterly destroy that though.

"it's a different gun." Then the connection is pointless and it devalues the story.
"It's a different Raphael" Then the connection is pointless and it devalues the story.
"It's not Greyback." Then the connection is pointless and it devalues the story.

Greyback handed Harrigan the pistol because it met something to him. It was a sign of respect between equal warriors. The comic tried to explain it.

The comic was never canonical. The films are their own thing, and they always have been. Just as we saw with the run of comics between Aliens and Alien 3, the only way to "make them fit" is to change character names and events around and contrive some ridiculous explanations. Can it fit? Sure. Do we really want it to that badly? Not really.

The only thing that makes that story worth telling is the question of where that pistol comes from, and you have to start making concessions to make that story fit. Different gun, different pred... etc... It just loses any purpose, and things are cleaner for it just being a neat relic from the past.

Canon isn't subjective ultimately. It's a collection of works. The term 'head canon' is just another way of saying "I don't like the way that's lined up so I line it up in my own way in my head." But that's not what the word *canon* means. That would be like being a Christian and saying, you know what? I think the Book of Enoch should be in the Biblical Canon. I like that one. Even though it is no longer considered Biblically Canon, and doesn't really fit.

1718 is no different than Enoch. It was at one point part of the overall tapestry, but Prey uses elements directly from that story in ways that are diametrically opposed. The moment you have to start rewriting the story, changing the characters... It's clear that the battle has been lost. It does not fit as originally written. It doesn't fit without extensive rewriting in fact, and then the question becomes "what's the point?"

Xenomrph

Xenomrph

#41
Here we go.

Do you really want to do this?

I'll start by saying that your opinion on "canon" is an interesting one but far from an authoritative one, and I disagree with nearly everything you said.

Quick bullet points:

- "canon" and "continuity" are not synonyms

- "it was never canonical", aside from being technically false since it was in the official Predator Bible and was thus considered canonical by *someone* of authority, doesn't mean anything.

- "Do we really want it to that badly? Not really." - you don't speak for everyone

- "What's the point?" - the point is that some people still like the story and are willing to make concessions to work around it so that it isn't stricken from existence in their head if they don't want it to be, and that's a perfectly valid reason.

- saying someone "isn't a true Christian" because they don't believe the same exact thing as you is a wild take when we live in a world where there are multiple denominations of Christianity, and it's a little too close to saying "you're not a true fan if you don't follow the canon" for my liking

- "official canon" is not a useful concept for the end-user, and head-canon trumps it 100% of the time. Your head-canon might happen to align with "official canon", but no one is obligated to follow official canon. The core deciding factor for enjoying fictional franchise media should always be "what brings me the best enjoyment?" If that means introducing other ideas or omitting ones you don't like, there is nothing wrong with this.

Here's some light reading for you about canon (and why it doesn't matter):

https://tinyurl.com/yau8de97
https://tinyurl.com/ybm4qvhc
https://tinyurl.com/ybv6m5sk

Side note, I spoke with Andrew Gaska (the former keeper of the Predator Bible) about the pistol, and he said that the way he'd approach it is the way SuperiorIronman presented it where you massage it to be a different pistol and different Predator and it's just its own cool little story and not related to Predator 2, and that 1718 is a loosely-remembered tall-tale and that the exact words and drawings on the page aren't meant to be taken as literal fact - it's the same approach the Alien RPG does with its myriad EU references.

Local Trouble

Local Trouble

#42
There it is. ^

That's the good stuff. 8)

Spoiler
[close]

@Samhain13 Heads up!  We've got a canon war!

Kradan

Begun, the Canon Wars have

Immortan Jonesy

Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 18, 2022, 06:45:52 AMThere it is. ^

That's the good stuff. 8)

Spoiler
[close]

@Samhain13 Heads up!  We've got a canon war!




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