Does Prey make the Predator: 1718 comic non-canon with it's depiction of the Raphael Adolini 1715 Flintlock Pistol? Can these stories somehow work together?
It was never canon. It was a fun 10 page comic but it never had any real influence on anything.
Quote from: SiL on Aug 13, 2022, 08:20:10 AMIt was never canon. It was a fun 10 page comic but it never had any real influence on anything.
@Xenomrph Can you make it fit?
Could these stories work together in some kind of fun non-canon way would you say?
No. Adolini dies a year later in entirely different circumstances without ever meeting Greyback.
Ah I see so we get two different depictions of Adolini
Nice picture Frosty Venom, love that idea for the PredAlien's back protrusions.
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Aug 13, 2022, 08:09:43 AMDoes Prey make the Predator: 1718 comic non-canon with it's depiction of the Raphael Adolini 1715 Flintlock Pistol? Can these stories somehow work together?
Adolini dies in 1719 as a result of the events of Prey, no longer 1718, or having Greyback involved.
Hunting Grounds
does have a flintlock pistol trophy and it's not Predator 2 Adolini's. However, a Predator still gets one meaning you could at least rationalize it as a Predator encountering a pirate given that's one of the few if only other story featuring a Predator getting a flintlock. So assuming this isn't Greyback since he'll be getting Naru's pistol and the Adolini isn't Adolini or has the same name, 1718 can still work assuming you're a bit more broad about whose involved in it.
Quote from: SiL on Aug 13, 2022, 08:20:10 AMIt was never canon. It was a fun 10 page comic but it never had any real influence on anything.
I disagree with your opinion.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Aug 13, 2022, 08:22:03 AMQuote from: SiL on Aug 13, 2022, 08:20:10 AMIt was never canon. It was a fun 10 page comic but it never had any real influence on anything.
@Xenomrph Can you make it fit?
I'd have to re-read it, but probably.
What did it influence? What movie acknowledged its existence?
Quote from: Frosty Venom on Aug 13, 2022, 08:55:26 AMAh I see so we get two different depictions of Adolini
Precisely! As soon as they revealed the date I was expecting another depiction of the pistol that would contradict the comics. Ultimately, this depiction is
the depiction as the movies take precedence when it comes to lore, but the comic is always there for us to enjoy and there's nothing to stop another movie doing something with pirates in the future. :)
Quote from: SiL on Aug 15, 2022, 02:44:31 AMWhat did it influence? What movie acknowledged its existence?
I'm not sure "a movie never referenced it" it an airtight argument for "nobody ever considered it canon". It could have been canon, and then the writers for Prey opted to do something different.
I'll pick Andrew Gaska's brain, he was the keeper of the Predator story bible.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 15, 2022, 09:02:06 AMQuote from: Frosty Venom on Aug 13, 2022, 08:55:26 AMAh I see so we get two different depictions of Adolini
Precisely! As soon as they revealed the date I was expecting another depiction of the pistol that would contradict the comics. Ultimately, this depiction is the depiction as the movies take precedence when it comes to lore, but the comic is always there for us to enjoy and there's nothing to stop another movie doing something with pirates in the future. :)
Also, this.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Aug 15, 2022, 02:48:41 PMI'm not sure "a movie never referenced it" it an airtight argument for "nobody ever considered it canon". It could have been canon, and then the writers for Prey opted to do something different.
I'll pick Andrew Gaska's brain, he was the keeper of the Predator story bible.
It's not worth getting into this argument again. It was canon for the expanded universe as of the late 2010s when Fox decided to do this bible and reconcile as much as they can. It was never solid canon for the movie universe.
You can make 1718 work even with Prey, it would just imply Naru's death and then you'd have to explain how the pirate captain got it, which could be a fun story in itself.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 15, 2022, 03:09:06 PMQuote from: Xenomrph on Aug 15, 2022, 02:48:41 PMI'm not sure "a movie never referenced it" it an airtight argument for "nobody ever considered it canon". It could have been canon, and then the writers for Prey opted to do something different.
I'll pick Andrew Gaska's brain, he was the keeper of the Predator story bible.
It's not worth getting into this argument again. It was canon for the expanded universe as of the late 2010s when Fox decided to do this bible and reconcile as much as they can. It was never solid canon for the movie universe.
That's the short answer yeah. My point was addressing the "it was never canon" idea.
Just offering the succinct answer without trying to open any arguments there. :)
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 15, 2022, 05:03:25 PMJust offering the succinct answer without trying to open any arguments there. :)
Oh I'm going to argue about it anyway. I'm going to argue SO HARD.
I'm fact I'm going to report your post to a mod/admin for provoking an argument. :'(
Guy de Lusignan (Me): Give me a war.
Reynald (Xenomrph): That is what I do.
If a film reference solidifies canonicity, and there was no film reference, it is fair to say "it was never really canon".
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Quote from: SiL on Aug 15, 2022, 07:27:21 PMIf a film reference solidifies canonicity, and there was no film reference, it is fair to say "it was never really canon".
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
I would say that if a film series has a canon bible, and it was in the bible, then it was canon for a period of time, even if a later film opted to change things (because that's what changeable media can do and no film needn't be absolutely beholden to a "canon bible" for all time if it means hampering good storytelling).
It very well could have been canon in the back of the minds of the writers of 'Predators' and 'The Predator' even though those movies didn't reference it, and then the writers of Prey could have even known about it and considered it canon up until they said "we can do something interesting with this" and opted to change it.
See also: AvP and Charles Weyland being considered canon until Ridley Scott changed things with Prometheus.
Hell, I'd consider that an interesting Q&A question if AvPGalaxy gets to interview the filmmakers in any capacity, "did you guys know about the comic?" etc
Whether it's in their mind is irrelevant, it wasn't in the films.
Trachtenburg didn't know about it before filming began and nobody from the studio told him about it. He wasn't given a Bible which shows how much the film department cares.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. The end result is the same but we're clearly approaching it from different viewpoints.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Aug 15, 2022, 08:47:28 PMI guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
>:(
That's like my favourite catch phrase in all of AvPGalaxy
I agree with the view that the comic "should not be that important" and the movie can overwrite that part of the canon. Hell, Ridley just steamrolled over the entire (AvP) movies, not a 10-page (it felt shorter) comic from 30 years ago.
I will also add that I don't appreciate the cover confusion that came with the comic (did it even have a cover?), so it often gets mislabeled with the Kindred cover, leading to weird situations where NECA makes Elder/Golden Angel figures with the Kindred mask. So the "Holy Grail" Predator comic can't even get its own cover right?
But, if you can somehow make this all fit the canon, then I am all for it (both the pistol and the wrong mask).
Quote from: Local Trouble on Aug 15, 2022, 09:34:39 PMQuote from: Xenomrph on Aug 15, 2022, 08:47:28 PMI guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
>:(
I mean, uh
NO. WE MUST BATTLE. FRIENDSHIPS WILL BE RUINED OVER THIS, FOR SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET.
That's more like it. 8)
Begun, the Canon Wars have
Quote from: Kradan on Aug 15, 2022, 09:37:16 PMThat's like my favourite catch phrase in all of AvPGalaxy
It isn't just a catchphrase, it is a way of life.
Let's just disagree to agree and call it a day
It's not like there is only one flintlock.
Quote from: gantarat on Aug 16, 2022, 04:09:39 AMIt's not like there is only one flintlock.
A flintlock engraved with "Raphael Adolini 1715" though?
Unless a lot of shenanigans happened between 1718 and 1719, yeah, looks like the pirate story is retconned
Quote from: happypred on Aug 16, 2022, 06:46:43 AMUnless a lot of shenanigans happened between 1718 and 1719, yeah, looks like the pirate story is retconned
And a lot can happen in a year
Hunting Grounds unintentionally provided an out.
The flintlock pistol trophy from that game reads; "A flintlock style pistol that was wielded by a notorious pirate of the Caribbean"
1718 is set in an island around Guinea which works well enough so despite the change you can still include 1718 on the timeline, the pistol just can't have been owned by P2 Adolini nor can Golden Angel be Greyback.
Adolini's name however is spelled differently between the two engravings. It is "Rafael Andolini" in 1718, not P2 and Prey's "Raphael Adolini" (and assuming it wasn't an n, that's still Rafael to Raphael). So while 1718 is intended to be the same guy, we can now attribute the mistake to a separate character. And otherwise he'd have to be given he dies a year beforehand. The pistol in 1718 also has some decorative engravings which the cinematic pistol does not. Ultimately by coincidence Raphael and Rafael have engraved pistols within the same year and both die within a year of each other to encounters with a Predator.
(https://www.filmsnewsfeed.com/images/article/preys-easter-eggs-predator-references-article-image1.webp)
(https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/scale_medium/1/15659/3355961-1715_flintlock-predator-1718.jpg)
I think... if including it at all I'd just prefer to interpret the graphic novel as Prey's story, but a Eurocentric interpretation, passed down by people talking about the demon who makes trophies of men.
Is there any indication in the comic that it's actually Greyback? In addition to the quote "Take it" of course.
If not the cool pirate incarnation of Raphael, I think its also the display of Predator honor and even sympathy of the comic added to not only the character but the species as a whole when Greyback recognized Raphael as a honorable warrior but went far as to do a burial for him and leave his sword to him. Like that alone is such a great expansion of Predator characterization and I think I'd be more ok with the decanonization if we get something like this in the future films with more Predator writing of how it thinks and moves.
As for the decanonization, it kind of sucks that he was just killed off like that. Least he didn't wanna be a douche to Naru and her brother. I actually did frown when Feral got him, was like damm that was really a wasted character right there. Could have been adopted into the tribe or perhaps this was the start of his pirate days, I mean he had a missing leg...already a great set up for a peg leg, and who else have peg legs then pirates?! Honestly, this part alone really did knock the film from a 9 to an 8/10 for me, just decades of having the old but badass incarnation of Raphael only withered down to a red shirt really sucked.
I like that the pistol's ultimately more important than he was personally, it turns out Raphael Adolini's just a guy at the end of the day, not just good or evil but existing somewhere more ambiguous.
Yeah he's killed like it is nothing but it's important to the plot the way that it happens, that reminded me of Alien³ in Prey and made me very happy, in that it feels quite authentically dismissive of traditional Hollywood archetypes in favour of approaching realism.
That's just how I like Alien, and now it's just how I like Predator.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Aug 18, 2022, 09:19:08 PMI like that the pistol's ultimately more important than he was personally, it turns out Raphael Adolini's just a guy at the end of the day, not just good or evil but existing somewhere more ambiguous.
Yeah he's killed like it is nothing but it's important to the plot the way that it happens, that reminded me of Alien³ in Prey and made me very happy, in that it feels quite authentically dismissive of traditional Hollywood archetypes in favour of approaching realism.
That's just how I like Alien, and now it's just how I like Predator.
I guess that means the pistol can still have a strong background with it since it's in Naru's hands. Like one that can surpass the old pistol's story. Like rather from the hands of a badass pirate, its from the hands of a badass Comanche warrior. Guess it's just me wanting more, especially since the comic is greatly liked in the fandom, it's hard to move from that. You make an interesting point, as like in real life, some weapons passed down weren't even used by the original owner but the one after in some famous battle and all that.
It doesn't fit with the new continuity, no. It was never part of any official Canon. The standing rule of thumb with canon is, movies, and then certain pieces of ancillary media get quasi-canon status based on what TPTB say. The movies can come along at anytime and utterly destroy that though.
"it's a different gun." Then the connection is pointless and it devalues the story.
"It's a different Raphael" Then the connection is pointless and it devalues the story.
"It's not Greyback." Then the connection is pointless and it devalues the story.
Greyback handed Harrigan the pistol because it met something to him. It was a sign of respect between equal warriors. The comic tried to explain it.
The comic was never canonical. The films are their own thing, and they always have been. Just as we saw with the run of comics between Aliens and Alien 3, the only way to "make them fit" is to change character names and events around and contrive some ridiculous explanations. Can it fit? Sure. Do we really want it to that badly? Not really.
The only thing that makes that story worth telling is the question of where that pistol comes from, and you have to start making concessions to make that story fit. Different gun, different pred... etc... It just loses any purpose, and things are cleaner for it just being a neat relic from the past.
Canon isn't subjective ultimately. It's a collection of works. The term 'head canon' is just another way of saying "I don't like the way that's lined up so I line it up in my own way in my head." But that's not what the word *canon* means. That would be like being a Christian and saying, you know what? I think the Book of Enoch should be in the Biblical Canon. I like that one. Even though it is no longer considered Biblically Canon, and doesn't really fit.
1718 is no different than Enoch. It was at one point part of the overall tapestry, but Prey uses elements directly from that story in ways that are diametrically opposed. The moment you have to start rewriting the story, changing the characters... It's clear that the battle has been lost. It does not fit as originally written. It doesn't fit without extensive rewriting in fact, and then the question becomes "what's the point?"
Here we go.
Do you really want to do this?
I'll start by saying that your opinion on "canon" is an interesting one but far from an authoritative one, and I disagree with nearly everything you said.
Quick bullet points:
- "canon" and "continuity" are not synonyms
- "it was never canonical", aside from being technically false since it was in the official Predator Bible and was thus considered canonical by *someone* of authority, doesn't mean anything.
- "Do we really want it to that badly? Not really." - you don't speak for everyone
- "What's the point?" - the point is that some people still like the story and are willing to make concessions to work around it so that it isn't stricken from existence in their head if they don't want it to be, and that's a perfectly valid reason.
- saying someone "isn't a true Christian" because they don't believe the same exact thing as you is a wild take when we live in a world where there are multiple denominations of Christianity, and it's a little too close to saying "you're not a true fan if you don't follow the canon" for my liking
- "official canon" is not a useful concept for the end-user, and head-canon trumps it 100% of the time. Your head-canon might happen to align with "official canon", but no one is obligated to follow official canon. The core deciding factor for enjoying fictional franchise media should always be "what brings me the best enjoyment?" If that means introducing other ideas or omitting ones you don't like, there is nothing wrong with this.
Here's some light reading for you about canon (and why it doesn't matter):
https://tinyurl.com/yau8de97
https://tinyurl.com/ybm4qvhc
https://tinyurl.com/ybv6m5sk
Side note, I spoke with Andrew Gaska (the former keeper of the Predator Bible) about the pistol, and he said that the way he'd approach it is the way SuperiorIronman presented it where you massage it to be a different pistol and different Predator and it's just its own cool little story and not related to Predator 2, and that 1718 is a loosely-remembered tall-tale and that the exact words and drawings on the page aren't meant to be taken as literal fact - it's the same approach the Alien RPG does with its myriad EU references.
There it is. ^
That's the good stuff. 8)
Spoiler
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/zFegkS85TBi8w/giphy.gif)
Heads up! We've got a canon war!
Begun, the Canon Wars have
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 18, 2022, 06:45:52 AMThere it is. ^
That's the good stuff. 8)
Spoiler
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/zFegkS85TBi8w/giphy.gif)
@Samhain13 Heads up! We've got a canon war!
(https://i.ibb.co/xGd6wGd/05d-1.jpg)
(https://s4.gifyu.com/images/PicsArt_09-18-11.41.28.gif)
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Sep 18, 2022, 02:48:34 PMhttps://s4.gifyu.com/images/PicsArt_09-18-11.41.28.gif
Saved
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 18, 2022, 06:45:52 AMThere it is. ^
That's the good stuff. 8)
Spoiler
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/zFegkS85TBi8w/giphy.gif)
@Samhain13 Heads up! We've got a canon war!
I considered pinging you when I made the post. ;)
...How about I just pick what story I liked better and having that be canon instead of what a creative decision and a movie that I didn't like tell me what's canon or not?
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Sep 19, 2022, 12:02:39 AM...How about I just pick what story I liked better and having that be canon instead of what a creative decision and a movie that I didn't like tell me what's canon or not?
Forbidden.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Sep 19, 2022, 12:02:39 AM...How about I just pick what story I liked better and having that be canon instead of what a creative decision and a movie that I didn't like tell me what's canon or not?
Go ahead👏 8) You are the cu$tomer. You decide what is canon and what is not.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Sep 19, 2022, 12:27:04 AMQuote from: RakaiThwei on Sep 19, 2022, 12:02:39 AM...How about I just pick what story I liked better and having that be canon instead of what a creative decision and a movie that I didn't like tell me what's canon or not?
Go ahead👏 8) You are the cu$tomer. You decide what is canon and what is not.
This right here.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Sep 19, 2022, 12:27:04 AMGo ahead👏 8) You are the cu$tomer. You decide what is canon and what is not.
Thank you. Because I disliked PREY and how it handled the flintlock, and I most certainly didn't like it's version of Adolini.
I much prefer 1718's version of the character, as he was actually brave and willing to put up a fight and may even be considered heroic to a degree.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Sep 19, 2022, 12:02:39 AM...How about I just pick what story I liked better and having that be canon instead of what a creative decision and a movie that I didn't like tell me what's canon or not?
I think the problem here is that words are not being understood by their definition.
Canon, contrary to the signature I made for xenomrph, is not a question of opinion. There is no such thing as "personal" or "head" canon. Those are cute ways of saying "my opinion." Canon is a curated collection of works. We are not the curators of the franchise. We're the audience. Fox/Disney/TPTB are the curators of this franchise. For better or worse. They tell us what is canon, not the other way around. Right now, as far as Prey is concerned, they're telling us they don't follow the comic. For the simple fact that the only two elements in common between Predator 2, Prey, and the comic are the gun and the name. Absolutely nothing else from the comic was translated into this version.
Prime example. I absolutely hate Covenant and Prometheus and what they represent to the series. Hate it. I hate turning the alien into a robots science experiment. I think that disgraces the original films... But, that is my opinion. Fox/Disney/TPTB don't have any obligation to listen to what I say because they are the curators of this franchise, not me.
Canon, continuity, and personal opinion. Everyone is free to like whatever they like and think "well I prefer this version." That's all well and good. There are people in this community to this day who hold the comics that came out between Aliens and Alien 3 to be the "real events." Even though there is no way to reconcile those stories as originally written, with the events of Alien 3.
What you like is not the same thing as what is deemed official canon. You're not describing canon. You're describing your personal taste. There's nothing wrong with having personal taste or a preference. We can have all the feefees we want. The thread isn't asking about personal opinion. It's asking a clear cut question. Canon. No. Prey directly contradicts 1718, and as a result whatever grey canonical status 1718 had, has been lost. The question was answered.
I don't care what anyone, myself included, thinks is or isn't "canon." That's not what the word canon
MEANS. What I personally deem as "really happened" or not does not equate to what Fox/Disney/TPTB decide is what is canonical. Book of Enoch is not canon. Neither is 1718. It may have been at one point defacto canon, but Greyback does not meet Adolini because the man
is dead. Just as Hicks and Newt are
dead in Alien 3.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Sep 19, 2022, 04:14:14 AMI think the problem here is that words are not being understood by their definition.
Canon, contrary to the signature I made for xenomrph, is not a question of opinion. There is no such thing as "personal" or "head" canon. Those are cute ways of saying "my opinion." Canon is a curated collection of works. We are not the curators of the franchise. We're the audience. Fox/Disney/TPTB are the curators of this franchise. For better or worse. They tell us what is canon, not the other way around. Right now, as far as Prey is concerned, they're telling us they don't follow the comic. For the simple fact that the only two elements in common between Predator 2, Prey, and the comic are the gun and the name. Absolutely nothing else from the comic was translated into this version.
Prime example. I absolutely hate Covenant and Prometheus and what they represent to the series. Hate it. I hate turning the alien into a robots science experiment. I think that disgraces the original films... But, that is my opinion. Fox/Disney/TPTB don't have any obligation to listen to what I say because they are the curators of this franchise, not me.
Canon, continuity, and personal opinion. Everyone is free to like whatever they like and think "well I prefer this version." That's all well and good. There are people in this community to this day who hold the comics that came out between Aliens and Alien 3 to be the "real events." Even though there is no way to reconcile those stories as originally written, with the events of Alien 3.
What you like is not the same thing as what is deemed official canon. You're not describing canon. You're describing your personal taste. There's nothing wrong with having personal taste or a preference. We can have all the feefees we want. The thread isn't asking about personal opinion. It's asking a clear cut question. Canon. No. Prey directly contradicts 1718, and as a result whatever grey canonical status 1718 had, has been lost. The question was answered.
I don't care what anyone, myself included, thinks is or isn't "canon." That's not what the word canon MEANS. What I personally deem as "really happened" or not does not equate to what Fox/Disney/TPTB decide is what is canonical. Book of Enoch is not canon. Neither is 1718. It may have been at one point defacto canon, but Greyback does not meet Adolini because the man is dead. Just as Hicks and Newt are dead in Alien 3.
I get what you're saying and all, I completely understand but I'm so frustrated with the franchises and way to jaded to just accept PREDATORS, The Predator, and Prey.
Canon be f**king damned.
Quote from: RakaiThwei on Sep 19, 2022, 04:20:49 AMCanon be f**king damned.
Every time I was hearing murmurings in the lead up to Prey "Oh I hope they show the pistol." I just... Be careful what you wish for.
Same thing with everyone begging for an answer to the Space Jockey question. We were better off with the mystery, weren't we?
The answer to the question of the pistol was always far better left blank. That scene says so much in two minutes. Why waste that beautiful mystery? Well, here we are.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Sep 19, 2022, 04:14:14 AMQuote from: RakaiThwei on Sep 19, 2022, 12:02:39 AM...How about I just pick what story I liked better and having that be canon instead of what a creative decision and a movie that I didn't like tell me what's canon or not?
I think the problem here is that words are not being understood by their definition.
Canon, contrary to the signature I made for xenomrph, is not a question of opinion. There is no such thing as "personal" or "head" canon. Those are cute ways of saying "my opinion." Canon is a curated collection of works. We are not the curators of the franchise. We're the audience. Fox/Disney/TPTB are the curators of this franchise. For better or worse. They tell us what is canon, not the other way around. Right now, as far as Prey is concerned, they're telling us they don't follow the comic. For the simple fact that the only two elements in common between Predator 2, Prey, and the comic are the gun and the name. Absolutely nothing else from the comic was translated into this version.
Prime example. I absolutely hate Covenant and Prometheus and what they represent to the series. Hate it. I hate turning the alien into a robots science experiment. I think that disgraces the original films... But, that is my opinion. Fox/Disney/TPTB don't have any obligation to listen to what I say because they are the curators of this franchise, not me.
Canon, continuity, and personal opinion. Everyone is free to like whatever they like and think "well I prefer this version." That's all well and good. There are people in this community to this day who hold the comics that came out between Aliens and Alien 3 to be the "real events." Even though there is no way to reconcile those stories as originally written, with the events of Alien 3.
What you like is not the same thing as what is deemed official canon. You're not describing canon. You're describing your personal taste. There's nothing wrong with having personal taste or a preference. We can have all the feefees we want. The thread isn't asking about personal opinion. It's asking a clear cut question. Canon. No. Prey directly contradicts 1718, and as a result whatever grey canonical status 1718 had, has been lost. The question was answered.
I don't care what anyone, myself included, thinks is or isn't "canon." That's not what the word canon MEANS. What I personally deem as "really happened" or not does not equate to what Fox/Disney/TPTB decide is what is canonical. Book of Enoch is not canon. Neither is 1718. It may have been at one point defacto canon, but Greyback does not meet Adolini because the man is dead. Just as Hicks and Newt are dead in Alien 3.
The point is that "official canon" doesn't matter. Who cares what FOX/Disney "says"? Why on earth should that dictate what part of a
fictional media franchise I consider "true"?
Head-canon is absolutely as valid as "official canon" from the end-user point of view. Nobody cares (or at least,
should care) what Fox/Disney say, it's all fiction anyway, believe what you want. "Official canon" only matters to the
creators, and even then they can change things on a whim if it suits their storytelling, "official canon" be damned. Disney/Fox are not "curators" of the franchise, they merely make content for it.
You are the curator for what you choose to believe about, again, a
fictional media franchise.
Canon, the actual religious definition of canon, was at its core "a set of texts (also called "books") which a particular Jewish or Christian religious community regards as part of the Bible". (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon) Key word there:
community decided. The actual original definition of "canon" was literally head-canon.
Even "fictional" canon is defined as "the material accepted as officially part of the story in an individual universe of that story by its fan base." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(fiction)) Again, decided by the fans.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Sep 19, 2022, 04:47:49 AMQuote from: OpenMaw on Sep 19, 2022, 04:14:14 AMQuote from: RakaiThwei on Sep 19, 2022, 12:02:39 AM...How about I just pick what story I liked better and having that be canon instead of what a creative decision and a movie that I didn't like tell me what's canon or not?
I think the problem here is that words are not being understood by their definition.
Canon, contrary to the signature I made for xenomrph, is not a question of opinion. There is no such thing as "personal" or "head" canon. Those are cute ways of saying "my opinion." Canon is a curated collection of works. We are not the curators of the franchise. We're the audience. Fox/Disney/TPTB are the curators of this franchise. For better or worse. They tell us what is canon, not the other way around. Right now, as far as Prey is concerned, they're telling us they don't follow the comic. For the simple fact that the only two elements in common between Predator 2, Prey, and the comic are the gun and the name. Absolutely nothing else from the comic was translated into this version.
Prime example. I absolutely hate Covenant and Prometheus and what they represent to the series. Hate it. I hate turning the alien into a robots science experiment. I think that disgraces the original films... But, that is my opinion. Fox/Disney/TPTB don't have any obligation to listen to what I say because they are the curators of this franchise, not me.
Canon, continuity, and personal opinion. Everyone is free to like whatever they like and think "well I prefer this version." That's all well and good. There are people in this community to this day who hold the comics that came out between Aliens and Alien 3 to be the "real events." Even though there is no way to reconcile those stories as originally written, with the events of Alien 3.
What you like is not the same thing as what is deemed official canon. You're not describing canon. You're describing your personal taste. There's nothing wrong with having personal taste or a preference. We can have all the feefees we want. The thread isn't asking about personal opinion. It's asking a clear cut question. Canon. No. Prey directly contradicts 1718, and as a result whatever grey canonical status 1718 had, has been lost. The question was answered.
I don't care what anyone, myself included, thinks is or isn't "canon." That's not what the word canon MEANS. What I personally deem as "really happened" or not does not equate to what Fox/Disney/TPTB decide is what is canonical. Book of Enoch is not canon. Neither is 1718. It may have been at one point defacto canon, but Greyback does not meet Adolini because the man is dead. Just as Hicks and Newt are dead in Alien 3.
The point is that "official canon" doesn't matter. Who cares what FOX/Disney "says"? Why on earth should that dictate what part of a fictional media franchise I consider "true"?
Head-canon is absolutely as valid as "official canon" from the end-user point of view. Nobody cares (or at least, should care) what Fox/Disney say, it's all fiction anyway, believe what you want. "Official canon" only matters to the creators, and even then they can change things on a whim if it suits their storytelling, "official canon" be damned. Disney/Fox are not "curators" of the franchise, they merely make content for it. You are the curator for what you choose to believe about, again, a fictional media franchise.
Canon, the actual religious definition of canon, was at its core "a set of texts (also called "books") which a particular Jewish or Christian religious community regards as part of the Bible". (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon) Key word there: community decided. The actual original definition of "canon" was literally head-canon.
Even "fictional" canon is defined as "the material accepted as officially part of the story in an individual universe of that story by its fan base." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(fiction)) Again, decided by the fans.
It's a nonsensical term. Canon isn't the same thing as opinion. Canon is a curated collection of works. Fox is the curator, we are not.
"Canon 1a : a regulation or dogma decreed by a church council. b : a provision of canon law. "
Fox merely creates the content, the fans are who curate it.
You're also conflating whether or not "official canon" matters compared to headcanon (it doesn't). You're saying "but it's canon!" as if it's supposed to mean something.
Check out the links you quoted. Even if you want to take the route that the Church "curates" biblical content, not only is it merely a third-party reaching a generally agreed upon consensus and not an "official truth" (since the Church ostensibly didn't write the Bible, they are merely purporting to interpret a text they didn't create), nobody is obligated to follow what the Church says anyway. Not to mention that different denominations of the "same" religion consider different texts to be canonical - again, community decided. If you want to accept the Book of Enoch as "canonical" in your personal faith, there is absolutely no one stopping you.
The "official canon" (be it fictional or Biblical) does not matter. It all comes down to what you personally believe - if you feel that following the "official canon" is what brings you closer to enlightenment, even if you don't like everything you believe in, then that is a personal choice to do so. It is literally head-canon all the way down.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Sep 19, 2022, 04:37:33 AMEvery time I was hearing murmurings in the lead up to Prey "Oh I hope they show the pistol." I just... Be careful what you wish for.
I stopped doing that sort of thing after the Star Wars prequels.
Now I brace myself every time a new prequel (or even a sequel for that matter) is announced because I find that so many filmmakers pay only superficial attention to continuity (much less obscure ancillary material like the comics or novels).
And now some filmmakers seem to litter their movies with so many ridiculous callbacks that everything else takes a back seat to nostalgia.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 19, 2022, 06:19:10 AMI stopped doing that sort of thing after the Star Wars prequels.
Now I brace myself every time a new prequel (or even a sequel for that matter) is announced because I find that so many filmmakers pay only superficial attention to continuity (much less obscure ancillary material like the comics or novels).
And now some filmmakers seem to litter their movies with so many ridiculous callbacks that everything else takes a back seat to nostalgia.
Every time I have seen Alien since Prometheus came out I just shake my head during the Derelict scene. Jim Cameron even knew better. Don't touch it. Let the mystery thrive.
Now we have the answer. It was some blokes gun. Wooooooo...?
Yeah I'm not keen on the thick layer of nostalgia that is marinated into our media these days. It seems to stand in for genuine emotion half the time. Memberberries.
I prefer to view each entry in isolation, no pun intended either, it is still a big mysterious corpse in the context of Alien to me.
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Sep 19, 2022, 06:58:38 PMI prefer to view each entry in isolation, no pun intended either, it is still a big mysterious corpse in the context of Alien to me.
Same here, I have a healthy degree of separation for each film, in my mind.
I look at the Alien prequels as separate continuity, just as I look at the AVP films as separate, or even the Dark Horse comics (Outbreak, Nightmare Asylum, Earth War). They each are just branching continuities/timelines. Which helps me appreciate each for what they are, as well as preserve the perfection of the first Alien film in my mind.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Sep 19, 2022, 04:14:14 AMI don't care what anyone, myself included, thinks is or isn't "canon." That's not what the word canon MEANS. What I personally deem as "really happened" or not does not equate to what Fox/Disney/TPTB decide is what is canonical. Book of Enoch is not canon. Neither is 1718. It may have been at one point defacto canon, but Greyback does not meet Adolini because the man is dead. Just as Hicks and Newt are dead in Alien 3.
Despite Maw's dedication over the last week for busting my balls on YouTube, I have to highlight this and agree with him completely. And it's why I find canon a hugely irritating topic to get in discussions about it. It absolutely means nothing to us as consumers, other than some warped sense of satisfaction over our preferred story being the "official" one.
Canon matters only to the people who make the stories. That's it. Something being official or not doesn't make it suddenly disappear. It's only really a concern if future stories develop on that new "official" thing that might contain specific elements you don't like - such as David and his creation of the Aliens.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Sep 20, 2022, 08:33:27 AMDespite Maw's dedication over the last week for busting my balls on YouTube,
This is what happens when I watch things early in the morning and don't filter myself. Nothing but love, and the utmost respect, Hicks. :)
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Sep 20, 2022, 08:33:27 AMCanon matters only to the people who make the stories. That's it. Something being official or not doesn't make it suddenly disappear. It's only really a concern if future stories develop on that new "official" thing that might contain specific elements you don't like - such as David and his creation of the Aliens.
Exactly! There is no telling which way the wind will blow. Ridley has some involvement in the FX series and the new movie allegedly being worked on right? So his ideas about David could, even in a tertiary way, continue. I personally don't care for that direction, but that doesn't mean anything. Even if everyone on here were to take a vote and say unamimously that "David didn't make the aliens" and we said that was our canon... I think Fox/Disney/etc would just go... "*stops counting money* Who?"
I'm not saying that anyone who loves 1718 is wrong. I'm not saying that the love people have for that story is suddenly invalid. I'm just saying, clearly, Fox/Disney doesn't see it as the "real" version of events... and if there is a Prey 2, it'll build on this new continuity... Possibly, or they might go and do an anthology type of thing like fans are scrambling for on Social Media.
What did you grill him on?
@OpenMaw