Seriously when you actually look at what the Berserker does in Predators, he doesn't really do much at all.
His only kills are Stans, a guy armed with nothing but a shiv and the classic Predator who has been tied up for ages and is likely severely weakened yet it still puts up a good fight.
The Tracker kills Noland and has Nikolai on death's door. The Falconer duels Yakuza guy to the death in a fair fight. They actually take out the heavy hitters. The dogs get Danny Trejo and it's unknown who shoots the spear that kills Mahershala Ali's character.
That jaw bone on his mask makes him look super cool and intimidating but he's a total fake tough guy.
It's a great example along with Wolf of trying to tell, rather than show. We're supposed to believe these Predators are more intimidating, but three of them combined - with the odds stacked in their favour - can't achieve what the original did alone in the first movie.
My theory was (and still is), that SuperPredators are poachers compared to those classic being hunters. Their gig is to set a trap and kill those maimed by it. That would expalin why they weren't any good in more traditional hunting/ fighting techniques.
I've thought for a long time now that it should have just been the one single Berserker who went through all of that. Would have actually been badass to see one get blown up, sliced up and still make it to the end.
Quote from: ChanceVance on Sep 20, 2021, 05:34:46 AM
That jaw bone on his mask makes him look super cool and intimidating but he's a total fake tough guy.
(https://c.tenor.com/lpK_7jXIaEEAAAAd/fake-muscle-jason-momoa.gif)
I feel like Berserker should've ordered Tracker to leave to go back to their encampment (guarding Classic) after the hellhound attack while Falconer kept watching from afar, even as Berserker gets "blown up" and shot (and later on hacked up and whatnot).
One of the people from Royce's team gets lost and ends up in the Super Predators' encampment and releases Classic after watching Tracker bullying and torturing him then knocking him out. As Tracker goes after Royce's teammate, Classic wakes up and finds his weapons and kills Tracker. Falconer's falcon records this and reports back to Berserker whom drops Royce & Co just about when they all are about to be killed by Berserker.
Falconer observes the hunt from afar and decides to follow Classic. The guy who released Classic runs into Royce & Co and let's them know about what he saw. They decide to try to help and communicate with Classic as maybe he will be able to fly them back home to Earth (it's a long shot but Classic is their only hope really).
We see Falconer intercepting Berserker. They seem to argue, Berserker orders Falconer to go, but Falconer scoffs and comes up and brutally pokes one of Berserker's flesh wounds deep. Berserker roars and is to punch Falconer, but Falconer sidesteps and slices Berserker open...
Royce & Co run into Classic (he's bleeding). Classic first tries to kill them but they all drop their firearms, kneel and raise their hands. Classic grabs Royce and lifts him up by the neck and observe his face and skull and then drops him. Royce starts t drawing ships, stars and trajectories in the sand, vividly using hand motions trying to communicate, but Classic seems utterly uninterested in them and starts walking away. That's when Falconer arrives, slashing and throwing Classic around. Royce & Co assist Classic, whom wounds Falconer before taking another severe blow, the Yakuuza guy comes to the rescue and just like in the movie they both kill each other in the one same move.
Classic and the survivors (Royce and the Sniper lady) escort Classic to wherever he's taking them. He collapses several times and gets really aggressive when they try to look at his wounds. They end up at the Super Predator encampment, where a severely wounded Berserker is waiting, and from thereon the rest of the events follow the events of the movie.
That would make the Super Predators seem way more bad-ass and 'super', especially Berserker.
That still leaves three Predators failing to be as effective or deadly as one original Predator. It's the same level of incompetence, just arranged differently.
Quote from: SiL on Sep 20, 2021, 08:11:49 PM
That still leaves three Predators failing to be as effective or deadly as one original Predator. It's the same level of incompetence, just arranged differently.
Incompetence-wise - yes. But it would still make the Super Predators much tougher and stronger than previous Predators and just as skilled in combat. It would also make it so that the Super Predators can't be killed by humans unless a Predator has severely weakened and wounded them already before being taken down by a human. That is a lot better than what we got in the movie where three Super Predators plus a bunch of horned giant lizard dogs get their asses kicked by roughly the same amount humans - humans that never have met each other before and on top of that don't trust or like each other at all. So that is definitely an improvement even though it doesn't solve the (in)competence issue.
Quote from: SiL on Sep 20, 2021, 06:03:52 AM
It's a great example along with Wolf of trying to tell, rather than show. We're supposed to believe these Predators are more intimidating, but three of them combined - with the odds stacked in their favour - can't achieve what the original did alone in the first movie.
To be fair these three are likely juvinals who are even less experienced than the three in AVP. Remember its game preserve/ training grounds. The Orig Predator is a graduate, he has already passed both this Game Reserve and likely the AVP temple.
I don't buy that.
Quote from: Trash Queen on Oct 08, 2021, 11:16:26 AM
I don't buy that.
And why not? AVP made it clear the three Preds were teens on the hunt, then in Predators you have three again. Its only experienced hunters that are alone like Jungle Hunter, City Hunter, and Wolf.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Oct 08, 2021, 10:47:10 AM
Quote from: SiL on Sep 20, 2021, 06:03:52 AM
It's a great example along with Wolf of trying to tell, rather than show. We're supposed to believe these Predators are more intimidating, but three of them combined - with the odds stacked in their favour - can't achieve what the original did alone in the first movie.
To be fair these three are likely juvinals who are even less experienced than the three in AVP. Remember its game preserve/ training grounds. The Orig Predator is a graduate, he has already passed both this Game Reserve and likely the AVP temple.
It is very possible and I was talking about it through the years. Thing is we see next prey droped from above at the end and when screen goes black you can clearly hear another Predator clicking. In me head canon it was master/ trainer of those three.
Some great ideas being passed around. I think they each needed at least one more scene. Whether it was a cloak, skinning, med kit, etc. really would have helped. I always thought the one that spears Mumbassa was the Falconer because he doesn't have a shoulder cannon. The two with the shoulder cannons are on the other side of the camp. Food for thought.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Oct 08, 2021, 10:47:10 AM
Quote from: SiL on Sep 20, 2021, 06:03:52 AM
It's a great example along with Wolf of trying to tell, rather than show. We're supposed to believe these Predators are more intimidating, but three of them combined - with the odds stacked in their favour - can't achieve what the original did alone in the first movie.
To be fair these three are likely juvinals who are even less experienced than the three in AVP. Remember its game preserve/ training grounds. The Orig Predator is a graduate, he has already passed both this Game Reserve and likely the AVP temple.
That's not at all what the film suggests. This isn't a place for normal Predators, it's for this different breed. The film goes to lengths to show that these are supposed to be the bigger badder Predators, from showing a copy of the original tied up and ultimately defeated to Nolan comparing them like wolves to dogs. At no point is it suggested this is a training ground for juveniles.
To answer your question: because I rarely ever consider AVP.
Poacher vs Hunter is a good take.
Only dangerous if the odds are stacked heavily in their favor.
Quote from: Master on Oct 08, 2021, 06:56:15 PM
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Oct 08, 2021, 10:47:10 AM
Quote from: SiL on Sep 20, 2021, 06:03:52 AM
It's a great example along with Wolf of trying to tell, rather than show. We're supposed to believe these Predators are more intimidating, but three of them combined - with the odds stacked in their favour - can't achieve what the original did alone in the first movie.
To be fair these three are likely juvinals who are even less experienced than the three in AVP. Remember its game preserve/ training grounds. The Orig Predator is a graduate, he has already passed both this Game Reserve and likely the AVP temple.
It is very possible and I was talking about it through the years. Thing is we see next prey droped from above at the end and when screen goes black you can clearly hear another Predator clicking. In me head canon it was master/ trainer of those three.
That's exactly how I see it. Why else woukd Yautja drop the best warriors on a planet and then hunt them if not to train Young Bloods in a more controlled environment? The fact the Judas, the Traitor was added in seemed to me to also indicate studying their prey's behavior, how do humans respond to betrayal?
In the case of Edwin I took it more implying that the Predators aren't picky about targets so long as they fit the criteria of being able to kill things. So Edwin does look out of place compared to an obvious convict, a mercenary, or even sniper, but he still fits the criteria because he's still a killer. He's just not the kind that's as brazen or sees the same kind of combat. Which makes some level of sense with past films. The Predators will attack soldiers, but they're not against shooting kids provided they're holding an actual gun. Significantly different threat level, but it's still the right criteria.
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Oct 10, 2021, 01:41:51 AM
That's exactly how I see it. Why else woukd Yautja drop the best warriors on a planet and then hunt them if not to train Young Bloods in a more controlled environment? The fact the Judas, the Traitor was added in seemed to me to also indicate studying their prey's behavior, how do humans respond to betrayal?
Quote from: SiL on Oct 08, 2021, 09:00:24 PM
The film goes to lengths to show that these are supposed to be the bigger badder Predators, from showing a copy of the original tied up and ultimately defeated to Nolan comparing them like wolves to dogs. At no point is it suggested this is a training ground for juveniles.
The movie really isn't vague about this.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 10, 2021, 06:09:18 AM
Quote from: City Hunter Yautja on Oct 10, 2021, 01:41:51 AM
That's exactly how I see it. Why else woukd Yautja drop the best warriors on a planet and then hunt them if not to train Young Bloods in a more controlled environment? The fact the Judas, the Traitor was added in seemed to me to also indicate studying their prey's behavior, how do humans respond to betrayal?
Quote from: SiL on Oct 08, 2021, 09:00:24 PM
The film goes to lengths to show that these are supposed to be the bigger badder Predators, from showing a copy of the original tied up and ultimately defeated to Nolan comparing them like wolves to dogs. At no point is it suggested this is a training ground for juveniles.
The movie really isn't vague about this.
I know Sill and you are right. It was no where intended or planned, but thing is those assumptions can be made from what we see on screen. Especially with the ending. What I'm also saying for years now, this film is strangely complementary to AvP 2004.
You can really only make those assumptions of you ignore what you see and hear on screen, though. The Predator sound at the end is explained when Nolan says they get interested if you manage to kill one of them - indicating Royce and Isabelle are now prime targets for whoever comes in next.
I really don't think the planet is a training ground for juveniles. If anything, it's the opposite.
Other predator hunts have taken place on earth, or wherever, and the predator has gone to the hunting grounds. They actively go out and hunt for prey in the prey's own territory.
The 'super' predators are like rich, crass, 'sport' hunters who own their own island, and have the game shipped in, so that they're hunting in their own territory instead. Stacks the odds in their favour.
The wolves comment also works with this. Dogs and wolves are equally as dangerous, but typically, a person would be more inclined to approach a dog, right? Might not mean that the 'super' predators are more powerful, or more dangerous than a normal one, just that they're meaner. (I do realise that the concept of wolves being mean is kinda silly, and anthropomorphic, but I'm looking at it from a general and literal audience perspective.)
At the end of the movie, more prey is airdropped in, presumably by other super predators, although it may be automated or something, we don't know. The hunt begins again, except it's not a real hunt. It's all staged and stacked in their favour. They don't even bother going out to hunt for prey, it's all brought to them. They're lazy. Maybe they're rich? Since it's been said that The Predator is set before Predators, then it could be that they're the result of genetic modification.
If there's some sort of predator economy, then maybe the super predators are the rich ones that own their own preserve, can afford to upgrade themselves genetically, and are lazy enough that they can't be bothered to honour and hunt, and instead they have it brought in. They're also mean enough to torture and kill the jungle hunter that isn't one of the elite.
So, probably not juveniles.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 10, 2021, 11:31:29 AM
You can really only make those assumptions of you ignore what you see and hear on screen, though. The Predator sound at the end is explained when Nolan says they get interested if you manage to kill one of them - indicating Royce and Isabelle are now prime targets for whoever comes in next.
Not exactly. What we know for certain that the prey is being dropped there, is being hunted and killed and the process is being repeated every season. We also do know that SuperPredators hunts in groups of three and that they do hunt regular Predators. Those are the facts. It's undeniable. The rest is open to the interpretation. We don't know who drops the prey. It's not our trio that's for certain. We don't know how regular Predator got there. Was he dropped with the rest of prey or landed there on his own. He did activated the ship near camp. It might have been his own, as BSP cannot make it go back and just activates rigged bomb. There's clearly other SuperPredator ship that drops prey, as pointed earlier. But the main arguments for Game Preserve being proving ground is the confined environment of the event, less challenging and easier to manage and , as you repeatedly and rightly pointed, poor performance of SuperPredator trio. I know it's not the intention of the makers, but we do get what we see.
The confined location is explained in film as not actually caring about the hunt so much as observing and learning to modify themselves to be better - not because they're inexperienced, but to give them a competitive edge.
The story being bad at communicating that with lame, ineffectual Predators doesn't really change that.
You could throw it into a sequel and make it work, but it's clearly not what the movie itself is actively trying to say.
Yeah, we all know creators intentions. All I'm saying is the final effect lives room for interpretation for the reasons you stated above.
I'm not sure Predators constitutes as a film with a thorough character study on par with ...Scarface or Taxi driver or books like to Kill a Mockingbird. But i get your griping. may we get the 4 hour prequel Predators deserves. ::)
What are you even referring to?
He's not a credible source of information man.
I recently realized that Predators is missing a shot of the 3 of the Predators being together or interacting in some way.
Kind of a missed opportunity, AvP had some great shots of them together.
We've got the money-shot of them all decloaking together.
There's one money shot and no interaction.
Quote from: Wweyland on Oct 15, 2021, 07:16:53 AM
I recently realized that Predators is missing a shot of the 3 of the Predators being together or interacting in some way.
Kind of a missed opportunity, AvP had some great shots of them together.
Yeah. Would've been cool seeing them work as a team, using group strategies and tactics. Like, one scares game off and makes it run, second gets people one by one and third one kills whoever managed to escape from the first two
Really ought to have just been the one.
Quote from: SiL on Oct 10, 2021, 11:31:29 AM
You can really only make those assumptions of you ignore what you see and hear on screen, though. The Predator sound at the end is explained when Nolan says they get interested if you manage to kill one of them - indicating Royce and Isabelle are now prime targets for whoever comes in next.
Good point. I need to rewatch Predators.