I just re-watched
ALIEN: What is Cosmic Horror? video essay released by
Real Dimensional Pictures in May 2017. It's very interesting take on Alien franchise, especially in relation to flawed
Prometheus and
Covenant and their characters' actions. I have to admit that I rolled eyes few times (who hasn't?) while watching both
Alien prequels but this video somewhat changed by approach.
It's 17 minutes long and it's worth watching. It contains 3 parts:
The Soulless Ego
Mankind: The Infant, The Ant
Hell - The Consequence of Arrogance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3WExPtoqoo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3WExPtoqoo)
To quote the author of the essay:
QuoteCosmic horror is what the Alien franchise runs on. The basis thesis of the movie is that the ego of mankind cannot even remotely prepare them for the cold and inhuman evils found in the universe. When one rolls their eyes in frustration at the scientists playing with a dangerous snake-like creature instead of running away , or the crew who think they can outsmart what exists in the unknown, we are really rolling our eyes at the arrogance and stupidity of the ego.
I completely agree with that approach to the subject, furthermore I think that certain characters were purposefully written in such a way to represent that aspect of human ego, vanity and stupidity.
It would explain a lot. :P Thanks for sharing!
Good essay. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Quote from: Enoch on Aug 28, 2019, 04:45:13 PM
I think that certain characters were purposefully written in such a way to represent that aspect of human ego, vanity and stupidity.
I wouldn't go that far :) It may be just sheer coincidence or bad writing in some cases.
A interesting hypothetical, but I prefer a character or set of them I can respect the intelligence of.
Only time I really rolled my eyes was when he tried to touch the snake. Oh, and the whole map guy getting lost. I felt like most other things is just down to individual behaviour. There's no accounting for what anyone would or wouldn't do despite us thinking we know better.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Aug 29, 2019, 10:40:24 PM
I prefer a character or set of them I can respect the intelligence of.
That's my biggest problem with prequels.
Quote from: PsyKore on Aug 30, 2019, 10:47:50 AM
Only time I really rolled my eyes was when he tried to touch the snake. Oh, and the whole map guy getting lost. I felt like most other things is just down to individual behaviour. There's no accounting for what anyone would or wouldn't do despite us thinking we know better.
Yeah, I feel the same. People were really overreacting IMO. I have a bigger issue with the lack of proper character development for certain characters.
Quote from: Enoch on Aug 28, 2019, 04:45:13 PM
I completely agree with that approach to the subject, furthermore I think that certain characters were purposefully written in such a way to represent that aspect of human ego, vanity and stupidity.
I like the ideas contributed by the prequels, however that is like saying AVPR is too dark cos the filmmakers wanted to reflect how terrifying the Alien universe is :P
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 30, 2019, 05:34:17 PM
Quote from: Enoch on Aug 28, 2019, 04:45:13 PM
I completely agree with that approach to the subject, furthermore I think that certain characters were purposefully written in such a way to represent that aspect of human ego, vanity and stupidity.
I like the ideas contributed by the prequels, however that is like saying AVPR is too dark cos the filmmakers wanted to reflect how terrifying the Alien universe is :P
AVPR is the darkest cosmic horror ever made ;D
Quote from: Ingwar on Aug 30, 2019, 06:38:09 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 30, 2019, 05:34:17 PM
Quote from: Enoch on Aug 28, 2019, 04:45:13 PM
I completely agree with that approach to the subject, furthermore I think that certain characters were purposefully written in such a way to represent that aspect of human ego, vanity and stupidity.
I like the ideas contributed by the prequels, however that is like saying AVPR is too dark cos the filmmakers wanted to reflect how terrifying the Alien universe is :P
AVPR is the darkest cosmic horror ever made ;D
No joke! that shit is the black hole of Alien's franchises. It must be a metaphor or something :-X
(https://i.imgur.com/P7fnPee.gif)
Ahaha. I wish.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Aug 31, 2019, 12:22:15 AM
Quote from: Ingwar on Aug 30, 2019, 06:38:09 PM
AVPR is the darkest cosmic horror ever made ;D
No joke! that shit is the black hole of Alien's franchises. It must be a metaphor or something :-X
https://i.imgur.com/P7fnPee.gif
The deepest and heaviest metaphor which explains why I didn't manage to watch it. I couldn't bear its weight.
WOW! Cool vid. And I should notice that Alien: Covenant clearly showed us that David is also an ignorant and arrogant. His stupidity will be the inevitable result. I believe that he will make a mistake and be killed by aliens.
Eliminated by David's own hubris, yes- but I doubt so directly.
It's an interesting approach and I like trying to view it through that lens, but it's just bad writing.
Unresolved Covenant burning issue just occurred to me, do you think the Engineers of planet 4 grew the wheat or David?
Engineers.
Thanks, Ingwar. I enjoyed that look at the film. I've been reading Lovecraft lately and enjoying the vibe of "cosmicism". Mankind in Alien certainly seem to fall prey to the hubris of thinking you have control of your universe...
Certainly, that's a fact of the Cyberpunk genre.
There's such a rich vein of stupidity running through both prequels, how could the characters behave otherwise?
Quote from: markweatherill on Dec 12, 2019, 02:49:25 PM
There's such a rich vein of stupidity running through both prequels, how could the characters behave otherwise?
David seems to have missed striking it rich...
Lindelof has referred to the characters as morons in interviews before, especially in contradistinction to David, I'll have to find the specific quotes but yeah, there is definitely authorial intent behind the portrayal of the humans. I mean we can infer that since Fifield had weed in his respirator that he'd had many puffs of the magic dragon which explains his erratic behavior, like howling like a dog when he releases the pups 😂, the humans are trash in these movies and I never really had a problem with that lmao
This has become a flaws thread which I've written about several times when I was on the old IMDb forums.
As for the video essay, my time is short & I've written many of my own essays about the Alien franchise, again on the old IMDb.
Quote from: PsyKore on Aug 30, 2019, 10:47:50 AM
Only time I really rolled my eyes was when he tried to touch the snake.
This is imo the only serious flaw in "Prometheus".
My test for a flaw is;
* Are there clues in the move which could explain what happened? (The SF films "Forbidden Planet" & "Blade Runner" as well as episodes of "The Expanse" & "Star Trek", are examples where more subtle clues can help explain what is happening in a story.)
- "Prometheus" doesn't provided needed clues with Milburn and the snake.
* Since this movie is part of a film franchise, is there franchise information which could explain what Milburn did?
Not specifically.
* Is there behavior in our non fiction world which could explain what Milburn is doing with the snake?
- There is (with snake experts getting killed handling snakes) but the movie doesn't have action/dialogue/visuals which connect to that unusual real world behavior by experts (trying to touch or capture a snake) to MIlburn.
* I try to give science fiction movies which I care about a chance. I'll change my mind later if I missed something in the film but with Milburn & the snake, I still see it as a flaw.
* Now, Ridley and the writers have explanations which they mention in their Blu-ray comments.
1. They state that Milburn's specialty was with less complex or lower level life forms.
But that's not in the film.
2. There is a deleted scene where Milburn goes after a worm on the ground, picks it up & puts it in a specimen container.
Useful but again, not in the movie.
3. Jon Spaihts (script writer) said the crew were confident that their suits provided protection.
All of that is useful but something about it needed to be in the film such as;
Milburn saying a few words of dialogue like;
Quote Milburn: "I know how to handle dangerous snakes and this suit should protect me.
(There are other flaws in "Prometheus" but they are nitpicks. There is one major flaw in "Covenant" but I'll skip that for now.)
Quote from: PsyKore on Aug 30, 2019, 10:47:50 AM
Oh, and the whole map guy getting lost.
* I never had a problem with Fifield getting lost.
People in movies can get lost when they are stressed.
- Think of "Jurassic Park" and the expert computer engineer, Nedry, who got lost on an island he should be completely familiar with. (There are maps of Isla Nubar on the web & a map is shown in the film.)
Nedry should be in a vehicle which can deal with rain (in a rain forest). The access road splits in two; left to the dock and right to the helicopter pad.
- Because Nedry was so stressed he forgot all of that, and didn't remember to take a left turn.
* Also, in our non fiction world airline pilots with full instrumentation, good weather and in a completely familiar area can get lost when they are stressed. I can document that.
- Also in our world there is a thing called, death by GPS. Easy to look up. It can happen.
* In the film Fifield was lost for about 15 minutes before the storm.
- All that needs to be shown in the movie is that before Fifield got lost, he was very stressed.
- He was stressed when he entered the tunnels giving an exhale.
- When he saw the dead Engineer, he furiously yelled at Shaw. (He leaves very stressed out and got lost in the 15 minutes before the storm.)
- Completely plausible imo.
Quote from: PsyKore on Aug 30, 2019, 10:47:50 AM
There's no accounting for what anyone would or wouldn't do despite us thinking we know better.
Very good point. What the audience knows does not = what the characters know.
It is clear from Vickers' attitude / beliefs (she completely dismissed Shaw's/Holloways' theories) and the crew that Vickers picked & hired which reflected her beliefs, that the mission was completely unprepared for the chemical weapons they found on LV-223.
- On top of that Weyland while in stasis had David sabotage the mission to look for a cure for death.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Aug 29, 2019, 10:40:24 PM
A interesting hypothetical, but I prefer a character or set of them I can respect the intelligence of.
* In the Alien franchise there are multiple backstories & characters who do things which are not wise or completely foolish.
- With "Alien" there is the Dan O'Brannon version/view and the David Giler/Walter Hill version/view.
- I go along with the Giler/Hill version which is used in the novelization for "Alien" because it explains why the Nostromo is at LV-426 & partly explains why Ash behaves the way he does.
* "Alien";
In the backstory the company from the "Alien" novel;
1. The company knew bringing a dangerous alien life form to human settled planets and earth is strictly prohibited.
(This idea would be used later by Cameron for "Aliens".)
2. This is why the Nostromo was chosen to deal with the creature so it would look like the Xenomorph was brought back to earth by accident.
Smart idea? No.
* (Kane & Brett do dumb things but I'll leave that for another time. I do not accept the theory that all the Nostromo crew were dumb because they operated a space tug. Any space ship which goes on multi year voyages where the crew does repairs and where course changes are directed by the crew needs trained/competent people.)
* "Aliens";
Burke had the dumb idea of sending the colonists on LV-426 to the Xenomorph hive thinking he could control the situation & smuggle out some specimens.
He knew the dangers that Ripley told him but ignored it.
Foolish.
- And the Marine leader is incompetent.
* "Alien 3"
- Lock the Xenomorph up. Have a character open the door.
Not smart.
- Ripley doesn't trust the company because she believes they would ignore the danger & she kills herself.
* "Alien 4"
- One scientist does a ridiculous experiment with 3 Xenomorphs in the same room. They have razor sharp teeth. Once cut, the acid blood would melt the floor letting the creatures loose.
- In the franchise this is the dumbest thing that a science character does by far. Mainly because the scientists in "Alien 4" have complete knowledge of what the xenomorphs could do.
** Bottom line; the backstory/underlying theme for Alien franchise is that trained people, usually competent people; through arrogance, greed, over confidence and unnecessary risk taking, will make very poor decisions.
;)
Quote* In the film Fifield was lost for about 15 minutes before the storm.
- All that needs to be shown in the movie is that before Fifield got lost, he was very stressed.
- He was stressed when he entered the tunnels giving an exhale.
- When he saw the dead Engineer, he furiously yelled at Shaw. (He leaves very stressed out and got lost in the 15 minutes before the storm.)
- Completely plausible imo.
How is it plausible that the guy with the map gets lost while also having contact with the mothership that shows a 3D representation of the map including their positions?
Quote- With "Alien" there is the Dan O'Brannon version/view and the David Giler/Walter Hill version/view.
- I go along with the Giler/Hill version which is used in the novelization for "Alien" because it explains why the Nostromo is at LV-426 & partly explains why Ash behaves the way he does.
The O'Bannon version didn't have the Compnay or Ash. In the O'Bannon version they responded to the signal.
QuoteI do not accept the theory that all the Nostromo crew were dumb because they operated a space tug.
Has anyone ever posited that theory?
Quote* "Aliens";
Burke had the dumb idea of sending the colonists on LV-426 to the Xenomorph hive thinking he could control the situation & smuggle out some specimens.
He knew the dangers that Ripley told him but ignored it.
Foolish.
It's only foolish if you think Burke gives a shit.
Quote- Ripley doesn't trust the company because she believes they would ignore the danger & she kills herself.
Is this supposed to be a dumb decision?
Quote- In the franchise this is the dumbest thing that a science character does by far. Mainly because the scientists in "Alien 4" have complete knowledge of what the xenomorphs could do.
They don't have a complete knowledge.
The guy who not only has the map, but who apparently owns the mapping hardware and is clearly capable of reading a map.
I guess I am in the minority in ranking these movies at the bottom of Alien films, and that is fine. I'll always hold the trilogy and Resurrection in higher regard. I like them as Alien movies, but I do not like them as movies. Actually the only film with an Alien in it that I dislike worse is AVPR to be honest.
Quote from: D. Compton Ambrose on Dec 18, 2019, 09:47:26 AM
I guess I am in the minority in ranking these movies at the bottom of Alien films
No, you're not.
Quote from: Kradan on Dec 18, 2019, 09:49:32 AM
Quote from: D. Compton Ambrose on Dec 18, 2019, 09:47:26 AM
I guess I am in the minority in ranking these movies at the bottom of Alien films
No, you're not.
Ash and Bishop are still the best goddamn androids though f**k David...
I like both Ash and Bishop but find David much more interesting to unfold character .
I think they are far more believable as androids. One thing the original Alien films did justice was portraying "hard sci-fi" and when looked at closely the entire premise of the prequels becomes incredibly absurd to consider as "main Alien films," particularly with the super emotional and human David whom I almost believe would have been better off as a cyborg or "transhuman". It just feels absurdly like trying to fit the cube into the triangle slot having him be an Android. Ash works as a non-human antagonist because it is heavily implied he is operating on Mother's command, not vice-versa...
I understand that point of view but don't agree. I think David as a prototype is very interesting, as it shows why the increasingly more robotic generational alterations even exist.
Quote from: D. Compton Ambrose on Dec 18, 2019, 10:03:05 AM
... it is heavily implied he is operating on Mother's command, not vice-versa...
I must've missed that. Where did you note the implication that he is on Mother's command?
I think that's just his "interpretation" of it.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Dec 19, 2019, 12:30:48 AM
I think that's just his "interpretation" of it.
Right, and thank you, but I was asking him to clarify. ;)
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Dec 18, 2019, 03:00:56 PM
I understand that point of view but don't agree. I think David as a prototype is very interesting, as it shows why the increasingly more robotic generational alterations even exist.
I like this too .
Quote from: FenGiddel on Dec 19, 2019, 12:27:38 AM
I must've missed that. Where did you note the implication that he is on Mother's command?
"Special Order-937: Priority 1 - bring back life-form. All other priorities rescinded."
"There is an explanation you know."
*Cue Ash vs. Ripley, Lambert and Parker over the Alien*
"You read it, I thought it was clear."
"Damn company. What about our lives you son of a bitch?!"
The commands he is programmed with are interpreted in his android "brain" (Hyperdyne processor? Mainframe? etc?) as essentially a cultlike following of MOTHER's priorities involving the preeminence of preserving the organism for the Company, which he is programmed to essentially worship via MOTHER. Like the earlier poster said, it is my interpretation.
Ash follows orders (rather than programming) issued by his superiors (not Mother).
Not much different to a human.
I think the setup to conclude the prequels moving into Alien itself from a WY and Muthr point of view is that the A.I. of WY aka David hack (or become one with each other) to control the WY online network thus able to steer events, control ships, change science officers & whitewash event logs etc in pursuit of obtaining the Alien...without any actual human beings of 'The Company' up to and including at the start of Aliens having any actual plausible knowledge of the truth because the A.I. Of WY has insidiously taken control by way of David's infiltration..you could argue the events of the Advent extra could dispute this as then who is David transmitting his olive branch to?..But a third film could iron that out but I just find the whole premise of the story arc more scary of, Technology in a sense becoming sentient through David to pursue its own objectives rather than just greedy selfish WY execs happy to expend the Nostromo crew for the Xenos
It is beyond that point people like Burke take an interest that you could say that the humans of WY want it but I think the above idea is plausible
If David becomes the Network to steer events toward the destruction of humanity - why is he so singularly bad at it?
:laugh:
It's just silly fun conjecture but probably the derelict (If we go along with the Covenant idea that David creates the Xenos) is a scuppered last chance for him following defeat or loss of his Xenos of some kind in a third prequel film.
David infiltrates/uploads into Ash as He did Walter and or for a moment in time anyway inhibits but perhaps does not control the online WY network (Bit like Lawnmower man) to chase down the lost bounty of the derelict and fulfill his goal (As he sees it) of the destruction of humanity by reprogramming the Nostromo & it's Muthr by way of the skeleton keys & access codes of some kind gifted to David by his Pops.
Quote from: SM on Dec 16, 2019, 11:26:57 PM
Quote* In the film Fifield was lost for about 15 minutes before the storm.
- All that needs to be shown in the movie is that before Fifield got lost, he was very stressed.
- He was stressed when he entered the tunnels giving an exhale.
- When he saw the dead Engineer, he furiously yelled at Shaw. (He leaves very stressed out and got lost in the 15 minutes before the storm.)
- Completely plausible imo.
How is it plausible that the guy with the map gets lost while also having contact with the mothership that shows a 3D representation of the map including their positions?
It's plausible because such behavior when stressed, happened in a movie, "Jurassic Park", in our world with airline pilots & with people using GPS, again when they are stressed.
- Having a map means little if a person can't think straight because they are agitated.
- As, for Fifield contacting the mothership, he didn't realize he was lost instantly. It took him about 15 minutes to figure out he had gotten lost. By that time contacting the mothership would do no good because of the storm (as we see in the film).
Quote from: SM on Dec 16, 2019, 11:26:57 PM
Quote- With "Alien" there is the Dan O'Brannon version/view and the David Giler/Walter Hill version/view.
- I go along with the Giler/Hill version which is used in the novelization for "Alien" because it explains why the Nostromo is at LV-426 & partly explains why Ash behaves the way he does.
The O'Bannon version didn't have the Compnay or Ash. In the O'Bannon version they responded to the signal.
I understand that.
This is why I clearly stated
"I go along with the Giler/Hill version which is used in the novelization for "Alien" because it explains why the Nostromo is at LV-426 & partly explains why Ash behaves the way he does."Quote from: SM on Dec 16, 2019, 11:26:57 PM
QuoteI do not accept the theory that all the Nostromo crew were dumb because they operated a space tug.
Has anyone ever posited that theory?
A bit on AVPgalaxy. Also, on the old IMDb forums.
Usually the dumb tug crew theory is used to justify why Kane stuck his head/helmet in front of a moving, giant egg.
Quote from: SM on Dec 16, 2019, 11:26:57 PM
Quote* "Aliens";
Burke had the dumb idea of sending the colonists on LV-426 to the Xenomorph hive thinking he could control the situation & smuggle out some specimens.
He knew the dangers that Ripley told him but ignored it.
Foolish.
It's only foolish if you think Burke gives a shit.
Actually Burke does give a shit about his own life. His plan did a poor job of risk assessment for himself and that led to his own death.
Quote from: SM on Dec 16, 2019, 11:26:57 PM
Quote- Ripley doesn't trust the company because she believes they would ignore the danger & she kills herself.
Is this supposed to be a dumb decision?
Her decision is based on the dumb behavior of the company which is part of the backstory of "Alien 3", "Aliens" (Burke) & "Alien" (using the Giler/Hill version).
Quote from: SM on Dec 16, 2019, 11:26:57 PM
Quote- In the franchise this is the dumbest thing that a science character does by far. Mainly because the scientists in "Alien 4" have complete knowledge of what the xenomorphs could do.
They don't have a complete knowledge.
Is this a philosphy statement? If so, yes, no one is God which = complete knowledge.
But in practical terms in doing genetic, Xenomorph/human hybrids in "Alien 4";
The scientists in "Alien 4" would have had the knowledge which would tell them that the experiment with the 3 xenomorphs in the same room was a very bad idea.
After all, hybrid Ripley had acid blood. There was no secret about that part of Xenomorph biology in A4.
- Again, the experiment was the worst decision by a science character in the Alien franchise.
;)
PS.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 18, 2019, 05:12:54 AM
The guy who not only has the map, but who apparently owns the mapping hardware and is clearly capable of reading a map.
It does not matter how knowledgeable a person is with map hardware/software; if they are very agitated, they can make a mistake. Fifield was clearly agitated.
We saw this in "Jurassic Park" where the simplest turn is forgotten by an expert computer engineer who had set up the network on the island.
In our non fiction world airline pilots who are the world's top experts in commercial aviation navigation, have missed airports with working instrumentation, full visibility & familiarity with the area just because the pilots were agitated during an argument.
QuoteIt does not matter how knowledgeable a person is with map hardware/software; if they are very agitated, they can make a mistake. Fifield was clearly agitated.
We saw this in "Jurassic Park" where the simplest turn is forgotten by an expert computer engineer who had set up the network on the island.
This all ignores how film storytelling works.
Fifield can make a mistake, but the mistake must be explained. He's established as the guy with the mapping hardware, who has the map, who leads the crew around, who's in contact with the mothership. Suddenly, he's been lost for some time, with no communication with the mothership. Him getting lost, and the mothership not noticing, needs some sort of explanation given the setup. None is given, ergo, it's a plothole -- a hole in the established events and characterisation of the story.
As for Nedry, firstly he's established as a computer engineer, not any sort of navigator. Secondly, his getting lost is explained thoroughly; the weather is terrible, visibility is poor, and the signage to his destination isn't clear. His skills as a computer programmer are utterly inconsequential to his ability to navigate.
One line of dialogue about interference or someone other than Fifield getting lost and the plot hole is explained.
Didn't work out that way.
Basically. Fixing it would have been super easy; barely an inconvenience.
I think the fact that when the Captain speaks to him and you hear dialogue repeating, as though it's a connection issue, was supposed to tell the audience that because the connection got lost, the ability to navigate is also lost because the connection to the Prometheus' map is lost. But that's being very generous and it's not nearly clear enough.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 20, 2019, 11:21:57 AM
QuoteIt does not matter how knowledgeable a person is with map hardware/software; if they are very agitated, they can make a mistake. Fifield was clearly agitated.
We saw this in "Jurassic Park" where the simplest turn is forgotten by an expert computer engineer who had set up the network on the island.
This all ignores how film storytelling works.
I'm not here to change your mind. I know that many people agree with you.
But you are also not going to change my mind.
I've had this same debate for multiple years going back to the release of "Prometheus" and my argument remains the same.
1. Your approach reflects what most people today believe that action, adventure, science fiction, mystery movies are supposed to be.
It reflects the huge influence of George Lucas and Spielberg since the Indiana Jones films. These were based on children's short films not only in content but with story telling (with blood added in "Temple of Doom").
- Lucas clearly explains his approach in the documentary "Hearts of Darkness" (which is about the making of "Apocalypse Now")
In that movie Lucas severely criticizes Francis Ford Coppola's film style because it loses the audience.
For Lucas the audience includes kids. This was shown in his battle over "The Empire Strikes Back". Lucas considers this the worst Star Wars film.
After that, Star Wars had to be more kid friendly as shown in "Return of the Jedi".
Gary Kurtz was a producer of "Star Wars: A New Hope" and "Empire Strikes Back". He broke with Lucas over "The Return of the Jedi" because of this very issue.
2. So, none of my comments ignore film story telling. I've takes a couple of college level film classes.
- Before the Lucas/Spielberg revolution with Indiana Jones; action, adventure, science fiction, mystery movies could routinely have story elements which were not fully explained. Some examples; "Blade Runner", "Apocalypse Now", "Chinatown", "The Godfather", "Solaris", "2001", "The Birds", going back to "The Big Sleep" with Humphrey Bogart.
- Interestingly, after big box office movies changed because of Lucas/Spielberg, TV series took up the mantle of more obscure story telling.
One clear example is "The Expanse". (There are others like the "Battlestar Galactica" reboot or "Stargate Universe".)
There are also exceptions with newer films. The "Solaris" remake which didn't do well financially, the Matrix sequels which were strongly criticized and Nolan who can hold the mass audience with obscure story ideas such as in "Inception" and "Interstellar". But Nolan is very unique.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 20, 2019, 11:21:57 AM
Fifield can make a mistake, but the mistake must be explained.
- The reason for his mistake in the tunnels is figured out by his behavior which is a focus of his character since he came out of stasis.
- He is an emotional, angry guy. That is what the film is repeatedly telling the audience about Fifield.
- Why did Fifield emotionally explode when he saw the giant space alien?
He completely did not believe that giant space aliens were possible. His reaction to the Shaw/Holloway Engineer theory is literally "Bull Shit!".
(Why someone who was completely against the Shaw/Holloway theory was picked for the crew is another topic which I won't get into now.)
* The clues about Fifield getting lost are there in the movie.
By comparison with "The Expanse" for two seasons, figuring out Fifield is relatively easy.
- It's about expectations. I like movies which are more challenging to the viewer.
So does Ridley Scott.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 20, 2019, 11:21:57 AM
He's established as the guy with the mapping hardware, who has the map, who leads the crew around, who's in contact with the mothership.
Those tech details are in the movie but this is not the dominant theme about Fifield.
Again, what the viewer mostly knows about Fifield is that he can get very angry / emotional.
And that can affect a person's competence.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 20, 2019, 11:21:57 AM
Suddenly, he's been lost for some time,
No, he is not lost "for some time" as if it was hours.
The story sequence in the film is important to recognize.
The ship contacts Shaw & tells her she needs to get her team out of there ASAP.
Shaw & her part of the crew barely make it back to the mothership alive in about 15 minutes.
* A 10 minute delay in "Prometheus" before the storm means that character is not getting back to the mothership.
- It's like missing an exit on the highway because a driver got distracted. That could cause a 10 minute delay.
- Once Fifield can't leave the tunnels because of the storm, he finds his way back to the Shrine/altar/sculpture room. He was no longer lost.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 20, 2019, 11:21:57 AM
and the mothership not noticing,
Right before the storm, the crew of the mothership were very busy, as shown in the film, trying to deal with the storm.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 20, 2019, 11:21:57 AM
it's a plothole -- a hole in the established events and characterisation of the story.
Since the Lucas/Spielberg change in big budget movies, this is a common expectation.
Everything has to be explained.
Fine if you like that.
I find that kind of storytelling boring.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 20, 2019, 11:21:57 AM
As for Nedry, firstly he's established as a computer engineer, not any sort of navigator.
1. In our world, you think that the cellphone company doesn't know where their cell towers are?
You think the cable company doesn't know where their wiring is?
Of course they do.
* In "Jurassic Park", Nedry set up the computer system throughout the island. That is tied to phone communications, the video feed, the fences, the gates.
He knows about the electrified fences throughout the island. He knows about every electrically controlled gate. Turning those off is part of his plan.
2. In "Jurassic Park" there is one access road from the headquarters. Nedry takes that. The road splits into two.
Left is to the docks.
Right is to the helipad.
- Do you know your left from your right? Of course.
Nedry forgot that.
Why? He was under a lot of stress.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 20, 2019, 11:21:57 AM
the weather is terrible,
- It's a tropical island. In his work on the island over the years Nedry would have driven in the rain multiple times.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 20, 2019, 11:21:57 AM
the signage to his destination isn't clear.
The signage doesn't have to be clear.
Left goes to the docks.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 20, 2019, 11:21:57 AM
His skills as a computer programmer are utterly inconsequential to his ability to navigate.
Actually they are when a computer programmer sets up a network system over a large area.
Back to our world.
- I worked in information systems for several years. We networked 5 offices. We knew where those offices were. We knew where every wire for networking in those offices was strung.
- Also again, the phone company knows where their cell towers are and the cable company knows where their wires are.
Quote from: SM on Dec 20, 2019, 11:28:26 AM
One line of dialogue about interference
There is dialogue about interference.
Quote from: SM on Dec 20, 2019, 11:28:26 AM
or someone other than Fifield getting lost and the plot hole is explained.
Since the reason for Fifield getting lost was his emotional / mental state, no one else needed to get lost.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Dec 20, 2019, 02:41:35 PM
I think the fact that when the Captain speaks to him and you hear dialogue repeating, as though it's a connection issue,
We have a winner.
The storm affected communication from the mothership to the team(s).
But it's not the reason Fifield stomped away from Shaw and got lost.
He freaked out which distracted him. Simple as that.
;)
QuoteThere is dialogue about interference.
When?
Quote from: bb-15 on Dec 20, 2019, 07:39:47 PM
Since the Lucas/Spielberg change in big budget movies, this is a common expectation.
Everything has to be explained.
Stories being expected to follow through with established plot points -- and provide explanations where they deviate -- predates the 1970s.
QuoteNedry forgot that.
Why? He was under a lot of stress.
Which is clearly shown and explained in the film. You're trying to use a film which goes to lengths to show exactly how and why a character gets lost, to defend a film which goes to no such lengths to do the same thing, then acting as if they're equivalent. It is strange.
It is certainly strange.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 21, 2019, 06:53:13 AM
(Sil replying to BB) Stories being expected to follow through with established plot points -- and provide explanations where they deviate -- predates the 1970s.
Predates
The Epic of Gilgamesh actually.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 21, 2019, 06:53:13 AM
(Sil replying to BB) [That Nedry was under stress] is clearly shown and explained in the film. You're trying to use a film which goes to lengths to show exactly how and why a character gets lost, to defend a film which goes to no such lengths to do the same thing, then acting as if they're equivalent. It is strange.
You could mount a very valid argument that Nedry never actually got lost. The closest he comes to saying he is lost is when he says something like "I should be there by now". He then meets a sign pointing the way to the dock but has an accident and gets killed before he can get going again.
Yes, definitely strange. I ran into BB back in the day and he'll come up with any illogical argument to defend his position. For the sake of your sanity better you ignore him.
Anyhow back to Fifield. These are the four main facts relating to the mapman getting lost debate. Two of them are never mentioned.
1. As you said Sil, nobody misses the scene that establishes Fifield as the map man.
2. Much less known is this shot taken shortly after Fifield releases his "pups". Here someone asks Fifield, "Fifield, you got a read?". Fifield replies that "yeah" he does, consults his wrist controller (for want of a better explanation) and says:
"Pups are saying this way."
and then he walks off - still looking at his wrist controller - while the others follow.
This particular shot is a longish one (ie using a telephoto lens) and it is dark but Fifield can be clearly seen looking at his wrist in the same manner as one looks at a wrist watch. However, if you're spending your time looking at deleted scenes, listening to commentaries or watching Jurassic Park instead of focusing on Prometheus, you may have missed it.
A quick explanation about the wrist controller. It's the same type we see Holloway wearing in an extreme close up just before he takes off his helmet. Fifield is also seen wearing one when setting up his pups and we later see that Milburn has one as well - so we can assume all members of the crew have one and can get in touch with the map on the Prometheus (should they get lost, for example) and other data as required (eg the atmosphere).
3. And nobody misses the scene where our two stumbling heroes admit they are lost. Milburn says, "We've been here before, Fifield." and Fifield replies that he doesn't know if they have or not as everything looks the same to him. However, neither of them seem to have consulted their wrist controllers or mention there is a problem with them even though we can clearly see Fifield is still wearing his.
4. The next scene related to the "lost" duo begins while they are checking out the pile of dead Engineers. The Captain suddenly calls:
"Millburn, Fifield. This is Prometheus. What is your position?"
The first interesting point here is, why doesn't the Captain know their location? After all, he's looking at the dome hologram map and even we, the audience, can see where F and M are located. So what's going on?
The second interesting point is that Milburn is the one who replies. He looks at his wrist controller, fingers the controls and then says:
"Prometheus, this is Millburn. We are at 7-4-0-1-4-7-7. Why?"
So now Fifield and Milburn are no longer lost because Milburn has a wrist controller and and his actions prove that he can both track his location and communicate that location to the Captain. So why didn't he use it earlier when the duo were supposedly lost? Why didn't either of them mention that the contollers may have had problem? The only reason Fifield gives for being lost is that everything looks the same to him.
Ok we haven't solved the problem but we have re-defined it. It's no longer just the stupid map-man getting lost but also involves Miburn and to a lesser extent, the Captain. So now we have to start again....
I look forward to your full analysis.
I thought Fifield was high as f**k.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/L7PODy4N0rfUI/giphy.gif)
Dead on.
Have to say I find I can only watch the giftbarer edit of prometheus nowadays, adds back in all those extra scenes that give proper explanation to character actions and gives a far superior feel to the run of the story with slower pacing where needed, really do get the feeling studio pressure as always caused the original film to be cut in a way that ticks boxes for money men not for story fleshing out but that's the case with nearly all big productions.
Seems to me there's a ton of people who expect characters to act how they want them to, not in the slightest true to life of course! There's a lot of characters who aren't very open with each other and a hell of lot of insecurity going round as I'm guessing they've never met and seemingly didn't know the details before the signed up which maybe suggests they have to be not the brightest or desperate for the money or even it was miss sold.
Holloway is a perfect example, he's only there as an extra due to his relationship with Shaw, she did all the work to get weyland interested in the mission he's just a hyper puppy, Indiana Jones style scientist who clearly is not Head of his field but he's keen and fearless so perfect if you want what vickers wanted...
Vickers clearly picked certain people to not be best at there job to help the whole mission end quicker so she could get rid of good old dad and head home, that and she even states she didn't belive for a second engineers ever existed so why waste money on a decent crew. The rest of the staff are purely there for weyland and thoose guys have less screen time and seem to have a good idea of what is going on(to a point).
That and David consistently pushes the crew from the get go to be impulsive for his own agenda.
I watched Prometheus last night for the first time in about 5 years. It's actually a pretty good film. I feel like it's settled with me and I like it more now than I used to. Still Love Covenant a lot more though.
Quote from: PsyKore on Jan 13, 2020, 11:38:01 AM
I watched Prometheus last night for the first time in about 5 years. It's actually a pretty good film. I feel like it's settled with me and I like it more now than I used to. Still Love Covenant a lot more though.
:o
Seriously though, it's really not that bad some people think. I can easily over-look " stupid scientists " and "bald white humanoids" and enjoy it a lot when I'm in the right mood. Visuals are great and it definetly has atmosphere to it.
I liked the premise of Prometheus a whole lot more that Covenant, and I wish they had continued down that path. Instead, RS becomes infatuated with AI and blows up the franchise :)
No reason why Prometheus 2 couldn't have had boat loads of Xeno's if they wanted to do fan service. Ahh, the good old days when everyone thought the Juggernaut deployed Xenos for planetary cleansing.
Quote from: Kradan on Jan 13, 2020, 07:17:26 PM
Quote from: PsyKore on Jan 13, 2020, 11:38:01 AM
I watched Prometheus last night for the first time in about 5 years. It's actually a pretty good film. I feel like it's settled with me and I like it more now than I used to. Still Love Covenant a lot more though.
:o
Seriously though, it's really not that bad some people think. I can easily over-look " stupid scientists " and "bald white humanoids" and enjoy it a lot when I'm in the right mood. Visuals are great and it definetly has atmosphere to it.
It's definitely above par as far as sci-fi movies go. I never really thought the scientists were stupid, they just seem like "movie scientists," if you know what I mean. It's not too different from how the Marines in
Aliens are compared to how they actually are in reality.
Quote from: Mustangjeff on Jan 13, 2020, 09:50:46 PM
Ahh, the good old days when everyone thought the Juggernaut deployed Xenos for planetary cleansing.
That element is still present in Prometheus, albeit different to how most people probably envisioned.
Covenant is far superior to Prometheus, the former's got a solid idea, the other meanders all over several with no true core concept, even the Pathogen is a drastic improvement in clarity in the sequel.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 13, 2020, 10:25:28 PM
Covenant is far superior to Prometheus.
Not to the majority of us! Prometheus is 4 votes ahead of Covenant! Woot! ;D
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=60746.255
Let me know the next time the popular opinion is the correct one.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Jan 13, 2020, 10:35:14 PM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 13, 2020, 10:25:28 PM
Covenant is far superior to Prometheus.
Not to the majority of us! Prometheus is 4 votes ahead of Covenant! Woot! ;D
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=60746.255
Looks like it's five votes ahead to me.
Covenant's definitely better.
Covenant is better imo
Except for the whole David-created-the-aliens thing.
Wouldn't have been my first choice, but ultimately a non-issue.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2020, 12:46:49 AM
Except for the whole David-created-the-aliens thing.
That's the real sore point for a lot of people, and one of the main reasons it took a huge beating online. But there's also crazy people like me that like it, so stuff you all. :P
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2020, 12:51:59 AM
Wouldn't have been my first choice, but ultimately a non-issue.
What was thy first choice?
Have the Aliens be a naturally occurring creature and humanity was just unlucky.
Orona-style?
Same general principle. Maybe minus the lizard people with ray guns.
And some better-designed natural enemies?
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fkn4xJfz.jpg&hash=21fab5c805ed3f64e1e886856e3e616fd16b731f)
Yeah them too.
That is correct.
Quote from: PsyKore on Jan 14, 2020, 12:54:14 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2020, 12:46:49 AM
Except for the whole David-created-the-aliens thing.
That's the real sore point for a lot of people, and one of the main reasons it took a huge beating online. But there's also crazy people like me that like it, so stuff you all. :P
Where art thou stuffing us?
Into deepest crag. Where we will be forced to recreate all AVPG topics in unofficial form. Starting with this one. Toxic: Spudidity of the Udu.
I want the best of both worlds. The Alien is artificial, but created by a long extinct race unrelated to us we know nothing about apart from perhaps ruins. We've got the first part.
Quote from: PsyKore on Jan 14, 2020, 12:54:14 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2020, 12:46:49 AM
Except for the whole David-created-the-aliens thing.
That's the real sore point for a lot of people, and one of the main reasons it took a huge beating online. But there's also crazy people like me that like it, so stuff you all. :P
Fortunately there's still wiggle room to get out of that. I know it was certainly Scott's intent and I accept that that was the intended direction at the time, but ADF has our backs and there's enough of David being unreliable in the film. I'm hoping the dislike of that is noted for the next one prequel, if we get a next prequel.
BTW Covenant over Prometheus.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 14, 2020, 08:25:49 AM
I know it was certainly Scott's intent and I accept that that was the intended direction at the time
In with this video before Xenomrph tells you different! :D
I get people don't like David being the creator of this other worldly creature but to me it makes perfect sense as a narrative, in relation to Ash and the irony here in the term 'Alien'
The expansion of the franchise's universe via the black goo has so much potential for even more fierce and more alien creatures beyond as a result to satisfy is all thus possible
I know I am in the minority but I'd be disappointed for David as the creator of the Xenos to be backtracked upon now. It's chicken
I trust Ridley Scott who despite the prequels little flaws put a bit of gravitas back into the franchise following Resurrection and the AVPs
For, it was the fanbase's dissatisfaction with Prometheus that changed Covenant's path flawing it as a result
Be careful for what you wish for..ie) A dumbed down fan pleaser, let the soft reboot do that After a third prequel film imo
Covenant is only an improvement on Prometheus, and no the Pathogen isn't going to satisfy all, firstly- if the wrong author gets control, it's potential for nonsense without rules is off the charts.
Secondly- the Neomorph is the intended end result of a Ampule of the stuff being released, after the initial deployment blast, then it attaches to pollen in the air and forms the ovoid first stage, if you're exposed to it in liquid form you become an Abomination, then most likely combust, but the rate of transformation to death is dependant upon dosage.
Thirdly- An overwhelming majority of people invested in this franchise want the original Alien, and it to be of unknown origin, and it to be the main focus.
Wouldn't say definitively Covenant is an improvement on Prometheus. They both have elements better than the other but it's not clear cut
Your second point is a bit protectionist (Fair enough) but also inward looking
Re: Neomorph- That is a result of coming into contact with humanity, as the results with Engineers were not so fruitful
Your third point- Well what is the point of the prequels then if not to tell the origin story? Kind of makes the whole exercise redundant
Quote from: PsyKore on Jan 14, 2020, 12:54:14 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 14, 2020, 12:46:49 AM
Except for the whole David-created-the-aliens thing.
That's the real sore point for a lot of people, and one of the main reasons it took a huge beating online. But there's also crazy people like me that like it, so stuff you all. :P
I'm OK with it too.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 14, 2020, 08:25:49 AM
BTW Covenant over Prometheus.
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/182b8109f4bae38afc875a50caea4137/tumblr_oq28a4xVBn1sas7dso2_540.gifv)
My view is well-known that, Covenant's got a point and Prometheus' got no idea what it is.
Not inward or outward looking, just correct, it's exactly what Covenant, David's Drawings and Alien The RPG says. The Neomorph always exists, just variations on it, because of the host, but generally the design in the film. And for the record the Engineers and Humanity? Identical.
It's David's story, if that's not good enough of a story by itself, then it's it's got no "point" anyway if it's no good.
Quote from: David Weyland on Jan 14, 2020, 08:43:35 PM
Wouldn't say definitively Covenant is an improvement on Prometheus. They both have elements better than the other but it's not clear cut
Like casting. In my opinion, the casting in Prometheus is far, far superior than Covenant. Far superior.
But when it comes to surprises, Covenant wins that hand down. Like when it turned out Walter was really David. No one, absolutely no one, saw that coming!
Spoiler
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/EpLMZ913ji0RG/source.gif)
;D
Thing that gets me is that most people think David just swapped clothes and chopped his hand off in record time. The film makers thought the audience would pick up that David uploaded into Walter by the scar on his cheek, later emphasised by the stapling but that failed
Quote from: David Weyland on Jan 14, 2020, 09:11:05 PM
Thing that gets me is that most people think David just swapped clothes and chopped his hand off in record time. The film makers thought the audience would pick up that David uploaded into Walter by the scar on his cheek, later emphasised by the stapling but that failed
Hmm. Are you certain about that? I'm not at all, that's why I'm asking. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Riddles confirmed that David cut his hair, cut off his own hand, and physically switched places with Walter. What does the script say?
It always appeared to me that it was supposed to be the original David onboard the Covenant. He seems slightly more ragged than Walter.
It's still one of the poorest executions of a plot twist I've seen. You can see it coming from a mile away.
You're supposed to see it coming from a mile away, Ridley Scott stated as much in the commentary.
There seems to be a Ridley Scott quote:
- "...I am a very logical person. So I'm thinking, wait a minute, you mean he cut his hand off, changed his clothes, cut his face open before going out there? So I was thinking, if I just do it, it'll fly by...so it's about 20 minutes that I cheated with..." - Ridley Scott.
https://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/45949#ixzz6B2rVysQS
Yeah, don't think about it. lol
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 14, 2020, 10:08:55 PM
You're supposed to see it coming from a mile away, Ridley Scott stated as much in the commentary.
I wouldn't say it did the film any favors.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 14, 2020, 10:08:55 PM
You're supposed to see it coming from a mile away, Ridley Scott stated as much in the commentary.
Maybe not.
Per Dante Harper:
- "I knew we were not going to have twin robots without a certain amount of switcheroo. One thing I'm proud of is — because that always comes up when there are twins — we thought, "How do you make them forget that's probably going to happen?" I struggled with that as a screenwriter and then at the end, I felt like the film really did a good job. That's a feat of editing as much as anything else, but you do believe the good Walter beat up David and got on that ship with them. It somehow feels like a surprise, although in retrospect, "Of course they were going to do that
https://www-hollywoodreporter-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/heat-vision/alien-covenant-david-kills-engineers-walter-flute-scene-explained-1005974?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15790386040186&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hollywoodreporter.com%2Fheat-vision%2Falien-covenant-david-kills-engineers-walter-flute-scene-explained-1005974
Probably badly thought through yes but: https://images.app.goo.gl/6PRR9d1RbMM97iHF9
https://images.app.goo.gl/3fzGrMZRHvGGyBur8
If anyone cared this is evidence David uploaded by permission or by foul into Walter's body
Do we know when the transmission from Advent was sent?
Quote from: David Weyland on Jan 14, 2020, 10:28:05 PM
Probably badly thought through yes but: https://images.app.goo.gl/6PRR9d1RbMM97iHF9
https://images.app.goo.gl/3fzGrMZRHvGGyBur8
If anyone cared this is evidence David uploaded by permission or by foul into Walter's body
If Ridley did indeed say they switched bodies, I'm likely to believe Ridley, and chalk this upload theory creation thanks to gaffes and/or poor writing and/or pacing.
Fair enough, it's just poor, why emphasise the scar with the Walter(David) Daniels staple scene and the in your face visual of the butterfly stitches across his cheek in scenes after? Sigh
So much more evil potential with the upload method
Oh well 😔
Sorry. :'( Everything seems to turn into a bummer the more we analyze these movies.
QuoteThing that gets me is that most people think David just swapped clothes and chopped his hand off in record time.
Pretty sure that is exactly what happened. Hence David cutting his hair and the close up of him reaching for a knife at the climax of the fight with Walter.
I'm arguing on the basis of the cheek scar that David uploaded
I reason that he definitely had strategic & nefarious intentions by cutting his hair but at that point in the Film David was trying to identify and or tempt his 'Brother' Walter, up to & even after he was directly confronted about what he's up to & told he couldn't leave with them.
Ultimately the upload theory is more plausible & interesting with more potential to expand on this theme(Is Ash really David? 'Perfect organism' , Perhaps David hacks into the Weyland Yutani AI network to re route the Nostromo & swap the Science officer over) than David self mutilating himself etc etc & making it in time. The guilty look back before he runs for the ship says that he regretted leaving all his research & Shaw behind
But it's all academic coz Ridley agrees with you
So if he uploaded himself in Walter somehow - did he then go and retrieve the hugger embryos? And if he was going to just upload himself (assuming such a thing is possible) why didn't he do it when Walter was deactivated? Sounds like a perfect opportunity.
And I'm not sure what you mean by the scar on the cheek? Walter has one on his left cheek, and Walter is smashing David in the same spot with a rock.
It's all conjecture but I reckon after uploading into Walter, there is a reasonable amount of time to go back to his workshop to get the embryos or fish them out of his old body
Uploading is a reasonable thing to assume as being possible if by today's real world standards we can upload new software or on operating system into a piece of computer hardware. If Ash could be reprogrammed why not earlier in the timeline also?
David assumes he had killed Walter at the time so uploading wasn't necessary to him at that point. He then went on to attempt to kill Daniels, probably Lope after then Tennessee when he landed or spare him first for the ride back (Tennessee wouldn't have known about Walter's lost hand)
Regarding the scar. The scar on Walter's cheek is identical, exactly the same to the scar we see afterwards in the scenes that follow. Why have the scar stapling scene with Daniels then? Or blatant butterfly stitches in exactly the same spot as they try to kill the Xeno on the Covenant ?
Sure David might have super android fast forward speed action powers to swap his clothes, chop his hand off, scar his face identically AND go back to swallow embryos in what is at best five minutes but sorry it just isn't plausible to me and more of a stretch to be fair, particularly as he was pretty duffed up by that point and his voice box was failing
It's either just bad bad film making that I wish wasn't true or he uploaded which would actually give the film more credit
PS. What is a Covenant? It's an agreement
Alien Covenant therefore is an agreement on one level perhaps between David and Walter, an Alien Agreement
Ash was issued an order; there's no need to reprogram him.
QuoteDavid assumes he had killed Walter at the time so uploading wasn't necessary to him at that point.
Fair point.
QuoteWhy have the scar stapling scene with Daniels then?
An attempt to keep the audience guessing. Same as the shot of the stump. The audience is expecting that this is David by now, but maybe it isn't after all?
QuoteSure David might have super android fast forward speed action powers to swap his clothes, chop his hand off, scar his face identically in what is at best five minutes but sorry it just isn't plausible to me and more of a stretch to be fair, particularly as he was pretty duffed up by that point and his voice box was failing
Either he has super android fast forward speed action (like Bishop, perhaps) or super android fast upload speeds before running off to get some specimens.
His cheek would already have been scarred from getting smashed in the face by Walter.
An agreement could also be between the crew and colonists. By abandoning their Covenant for the planet, they abandon their agreement - and pay the price.
Fair enough on Ash but we still don't know who or what within Weyland Yutani issued the order
I like the scary idea that no human being of the company knew or commanded the rerouting of the Nostromo but was the work of David or his turned AI followers, making the people present in Ripley's Hearing in Aliens to be plausibly in the dark and sceptical of her testimony
Walter's hit with the rock to David's face creates exactly the same scar with the same cut shape and is just a coincidence?
Sorry I'm not buying it:
https://images.app.goo.gl/6PRR9d1RbMM97iHF9
&
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/7YEP8oSWsdU/maxresdefault.jpg
The Covenant thing is just a theory and on a superficial level, you tie to the ship etc but in terms of the theory Walter succumbed to David's temptation to reign in hell and all that follows with Ash etc, it's a nice nasty afterthought of this film being the moment that the Perfect organism is agreed, a Covenant between the two 'brothers' forsaking humanity
The cheek scar is solely for the audiences benefit since the last time Daniels sees Walter he's unmarked.
I uploaded the audio of Ridley Scott indicating that David cut his hand off and physically switched places with Walter, and Ridley cheated in regards to how long those actions took:
I generally take David's cheek wound as a sign it's actually David's original body. The film makes a point of Walter being able to repair himself. If it was Walter's body, it would have healed.
So why didn't his hand repair itself?
My take on Walter's repair is that it has a form of reroute/rebooting system but that's all. Not the official lore perhaps but by what is evident on screen
To repeat, The cheek wound is exactly the same shape and in the same place as Walter's.
Also If it is David, who can't heal, where is the nail wound post Planet 4?
Don't get me wrong I accept the official narrative and this is just my fanboy nitpicking thinking too much about a prequel story I love (what this forum is all about ! 😄) but it's poor and a missed opportunity. End of.
Quote from: David Weyland on Jan 15, 2020, 10:01:43 AM
So why didn't his hand repair itself?
That's a major wound, not a stab.
QuoteMy take on Walter's repair is that it has a form of reroute/rebooting system but that's all. Not the official lore perhaps but by what is evident on screen
The film shows you the wound healing. It's more than just rerouting around damage.
QuoteTo repeat, The cheek wound is exactly the same shape and in the same place as Walter's.
This I can't recall so can't comment on yet, but will check out screencaps.
Thanks. The cheek scar is the same
It all contradicts itself one way or the other
I just find the upload theory more plausible despite what we are told
Quote from: David Weyland on Jan 15, 2020, 10:32:32 AM
It all contradicts itself one way or the other
Next up, we discuss David creating the Xenomorph... and the mural! ;D
:laugh:
The mural with the Engineer is probably not literal, as it's hand is stuck in a indecipherable mass with Alien features, probably representing the danger of Pathogen contamination. The mural with the Alien holding a Facehugger Egg? Not as easy to explain, but I think it got forgotten about by the filmmaking staff, although perhaps not if we get a last film.
As for the main Mural as far as I'm concerned it depicts a Neomorph/Deacon with Trilobites around it, but it all got retrofitted when Covenant released anyway.
Most of more often than not things I'm glad about abandoning, such as most everything ridiculous from Prometheus, such as "DNA Match" and generally no understanding of scientific theory, pictograms leading to a military installation and the cliché of saving Earth from bombardment, the only thing that really stays is the no spacesuit logic, actions of questionable intelligence although not nearly as egregious and demystifying the Alien but I'll take a misrepresentation of a neutrino burst over all of the "science" in Prometheus. Other improvements: making the Pathogen clearer to understand, giving us a version of Peter Weyland within a film that's not smeared in awful old-man makeup and using Elizabeth Shaw's awful character (Sorry Noomi Rapace, it's Prometheus' writing, not your phenomenal acting) best as a twisted driving force for David's development.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 15, 2020, 08:46:51 AM
I generally take David's cheek wound as a sign it's actually David's original body. The film makes a point of Walter being able to repair himself. If it was Walter's body, it would have healed.
David's neck appeared to have healed from getting his head torn off.
The more the scrutiny, the more....
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/iAYupOdWXQy5a4nVGk/giphy.gif)
Scargate , I rest my case:
Walter with Scar about to punch David: http://kissthemgoodbye.net/horrors/displayimage.php?album=82&pid=184724#top_display_media
David's face as he is being punched, just a bit of white stuff, I don't see no cut: http://kissthemgoodbye.net/horrors/displayimage.php?album=82&pid=184706#top_display_media
David as Walter looking back before running for the lander: http://kissthemgoodbye.net/horrors/displayimage.php?album=82&pid=184758#top_display_media
Walter(David) back on Covenant with scar face: http://kissthemgoodbye.net/horrors/displayimage.php?album=82&pid=185662#top_display_media
Honestly, without a doubt the physical swap is the intention, but any interpretation is possible.
Waste of scene, dialogue, symbolism and visuals then and my time
I must admit I've had some fun pushing fan theories. :)
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 15, 2020, 03:34:00 PM
...I'm glad about abandoning, such as most everything ridiculous from Prometheus, such as "DNA Match" and generally no understanding of scientific theory, pictograms leading to a military installation and the cliché of saving Earth from bombardment...
Why do you have an issue with the "DNA Match"?
Why do you think there's no understanding of scientific theory? I mean, do you think it's the fault of the writers, etc? Or something else?
What are the problems with pictograms leading to a military installation and the cliché of saving Earth from bombardment?
Just asking. I found your post interesting.
Quote from: javablue on Jan 16, 2020, 02:28:01 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 15, 2020, 03:34:00 PM
...I'm glad about abandoning, such as most everything ridiculous from Prometheus, such as "DNA Match" and generally no understanding of scientific theory, pictograms leading to a military installation and the cliché of saving Earth from bombardment...
Why do you have an issue with the "DNA Match"?
For whatever it's worth...
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FwblSb4I.jpg&hash=da697bcae04c317c3224bb0fdc97d3635ccccee5)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 16, 2020, 02:35:04 AM
Quote from: javablue on Jan 16, 2020, 02:28:01 AM
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 15, 2020, 03:34:00 PM
...I'm glad about abandoning, such as most everything ridiculous from Prometheus, such as "DNA Match" and generally no understanding of scientific theory, pictograms leading to a military installation and the cliché of saving Earth from bombardment...
Why do you have an issue with the "DNA Match"?
For whatever it's worth...
Spoiler
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FwblSb4I.jpg&hash=da697bcae04c317c3224bb0fdc97d3635ccccee5)
What is that and what does it mean? :)
That's from Alien 3. I don't know what the issue is with the "DNA Match" from Prometheus, but there's a precedent for a simple neuroscan revealing the presence of foreign DNA in a human body. I'd imagine it could work the other way too.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 16, 2020, 02:48:09 AM
That's from Alien 3. I don't know what the issue is with the "DNA Match" from Prometheus, but there's a precedent for a simple neuroscan revealing the presence of foreign DNA in a human body. I'd imagine it could work the other way too.
Ok, When Ripley scans herself towards the end of the movie.
At any rate, the neuroscan is not being used in Prometheus. And secondly, it doesn't answer my question. Do you also have an issue with the DNA Match in Prometheus?
And btw, I apologise for not yet replying to your earlier post.
Quote from: SM on Jan 15, 2020, 08:40:53 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 15, 2020, 08:46:51 AM
I generally take David's cheek wound as a sign it's actually David's original body. The film makes a point of Walter being able to repair himself. If it was Walter's body, it would have healed.
David's neck appeared to have healed from getting his head torn off.
We never actually see that wound though. As with David aboard the Covenant, it's likely just stapled back together but hidden under his clothing.
We see his neck while he's cutting his hair. You can see a line where the head was re-attached, but it's not a ragged mess indicating that there is some healing.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkissthemgoodbye.net%2Fhorrors%2Falbums%2FAlien%2520Covenant%2FAlien_Covenant_screencaps_kissthemgoodbye_28299829.jpg&hash=cf34557dce72c2f377c8ee25df50faaadbea3361)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/prometheus/bluray/orig_prometheus-bluray-1114.jpg)
Looks like there is some scarring there. But it doesn't jell exactly with the shape of the prop from Prometheus, though that's likely more just a continuity issue. So there may certainly be some factor of healing, or it might just be part of whatever repair David walks Shaw through in Prologue (synthetic skin welding???).
I still stand by my previous comment though. Covenant makes a point of showing that Walter heals, and that David doesn't (or at a slower rate) which is a tell that it's just David pretending to be Walter, not a consciousness swap.
A wasted opportunity regardless, the cheek scar is to me, while not at first, seem so obvious now.
The scene with Daniels stapling the scar seems unnecessary otherwise unless to put a thought in the audiences mind.
Even the cuts near the eye on the other side of Walter's face are the same post planet 4
Sure I can go with Ridley that he cheated on 20 minutes and it is a straight body swap but in how it plays out you don't get that notion watching the film, it's at best 5 minutes
I suppose a third prequel will answer it but it diminishes Covenant's credibility in my opinion as it stands where they could do something apt in relation to the last piece of dialogue of the fight scene, 'What's it to be brother, them or me etc etc'
To me once Ridley said David cut his hand off, changed his clothes, cut his face, etc. it's confirmed.
But imagine if they truly went for the consciousness swap. David in Walter's body could have physically proven to Daniels and the audience in various ways that this was indeed Walter standing before us, without a doubt, 100% physically Walter. Then later, the horrifying "surprise" reveal to the audience that David was inside Walter's body could have been so genuinely surprising.... versus what we got: eyerollingly spotted 100 miles away. Imagine going conscious transfer with Walter played by another actor even?
Unfortunately as I personally see it, the David/Walter swap theory spawned by clever writing, it was not.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4175/33733046713_9694753578_o.gif)
I agree 100% with all you say
If the swap is said as it is so be it but to the detriment of the film
My only hope and caveat is that Ridley is/was intending to focus on the dangers of AI in the next film
The upload or at least the spread of an AI rebellion is still in play
The behaviour of Ash fits with this beautifully and despite most not liking David as the maker of the Alien, as a fan of this idea I hope Ridley sticks to his guns and goes down this path
It has to be exactly the same looking wound because both David and Walter are played by one person :) Sheer pragmatism when it comes to shooting a movie.
The question is that all achievable in at best 5 mins, sure in 20 minutes ( Whole movie is 120 minutes dammit) but that's not the impression given on screen. It stretches plausibility
David's to do list:
-Kill Walter
-Change clothes
-Repair his voice box
-Replicate the cuts to his face ( Although to back up my thesis that he uploaded, why bother? Neither Lope or Daniels saw the fight up close so it wasn't necessary to cut his face)
-Chop his hand off with an exact replication of it, Neomorph acid burn finish and all
-Go back to his workshop and swallow the embryos
-Run to ship
Oh and if he had super speed to do all this surely he could have run even faster, outpacing Daniels and Lope
Sorry it don't fly for me, he uploaded into Walter's body
Yeah, in terms of the time available and details I agree.
Quote from: David Weyland on Jan 16, 2020, 03:25:03 PM
The question is that all achievable in at best 5 mins, sure in 20 minutes ( Whole movie is 120 minutes dammit) but that's not the impression given on screen. It stretches plausibility
David's to do list:
-Kill Walter
-Change clothes
-Repair his voice box
-Replicate the cuts to his face ( Although to back up my thesis that he uploaded, why bother? Neither Lope or Daniels saw the fight up close so it wasn't necessary to cut his face)
-Chop his hand off with an exact replication of it, Neomorph acid burn finish and all
-Go back to his workshop and swallow the embryos
-Run to ship
Oh and if he had super speed to do all this surely he could have run even faster, outpacing Daniels and Lope
Sorry it don't fly for me, he uploaded into Walter's body
Ridley's answer to your question is they cheated.
Yeah, totally, but within the film itself it's up to interpretation.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 16, 2020, 03:40:03 PM
Yeah, totally, but within the film itself it's up to interpretation.
Yeah, I'm not a subscriber to that personally. Poor writing / pacing doesn't open that door for me. It's just poor writing / pacing.
Ah well, I made my point, if I see Fassbender or Ridley on the street I'll be sure to berate them...in the meantime I'll stop boring everyone and stfu
Thank you.
Don't mention it
You gotta love Ridleys "Heck, if i know..." attitude.
At the same time, this being a major twist/aspect of the whole ending plotwise, it kinda shows his limited dedication and decreased involvement in the project imo.
IMO, Ridley's problem is that he thinks the audience is as tired of the alien as he is.
I agree, but it's still his fault then, helming a project he more or less feels disconnected from.
Besides the Alien doesn't really affect this Walter/David issue. If Ridley was so passionate about going further with the AI theme, I'm sure he would've found a way more clever or at least consistent way to incorporate this/a twist.
In my eyes, he just seems done with the franchise as a whole.
Exactly why I think in a Ridley Scott in a Producer capacity, while someone else is the Director of the last prequel is the best combination, worked wonders for the Blade Runner sequel.
Villeneuve can't be everywhere! :laugh:
Quote from: kwisatz on Jan 16, 2020, 09:45:05 PM
Villeneuve can't be everywhere! :laugh:
But he should be. Everywhere in everything.
He is at your house!
Spoiler
Right now!
Villeneuve. An AvP movie. No humans.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/bKnEnd65zqxfq/source.gif)
Sure, why not.
Runtime: 210 min.
It's not necessary that it's him particular, in fact, I'd rather get a her in particular.
Such as Lynne Ramsay, Mary Harron, Debra Granik, Jodie Foster, Julia Ducournau, Coralie Fargeat, Ana Lily Amirpour, Claire Denis - Jennifer Wexler & Anna Biller?
Quote from: kwisatz on Jan 16, 2020, 09:58:49 PM
He is at your house!
Spoiler
Right now!
Spoiler
Cuckoo!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Funrealitymag.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F11%2FBlofeld-Spectre.png&hash=81b7add553ba75fd4c7fe9818c89d786cafe5faf)
Such as, indeed.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Jan 16, 2020, 10:18:22 PM
It's not necessary that it's him particular, in fact, I'd rather get a her in particular.
Spear Sisters ?
if the pool is still going after reading 11 pages i'm casting my vote in to
- Prometheus - Lore acceptable
- Covenant is a at best a Ridley Scott brain fart
i don''t get how some are ok with Covenant but it's your choice to accept the explanation
i for one don't care what anyone says :
1. the spores from the Black Catalyst infused plants do NOT hold hands and start flying like a bird
2. David did NOT breed eggs out of his ass
3. Xenomorphs do not " dance " for androids
Covenant's far superior to Prometheus. It's prologue alone's perfect.
Yeah I prefer AC for sure.
Quote2. David did NOT breed eggs out of his ass
Correct. He most certainly did not breed anything "out of his ass".
Ridley saved that for the last prequel lol
I'm clutching at straws but in pure comparison between the two, Prometheus feels more of a British film and Covenant a Hollywood film to me or Alien to Aliens type of difference
As theatre cuts, Covenant is a bit better but when you compare up the two best respective fan cuts (pseudo director cuts), Prometheus is IMO better
We're comparing fan cuts as being legit now?
Quote from: SM on Mar 07, 2020, 09:00:09 PM
Quote2. David did NOT breed eggs out of his ass
Correct. He most certainly did not breed anything "out of his ass".
Yeah, that one had me wondering if I'd missed a deleted scene.
Quote from: SM on Mar 07, 2020, 10:05:37 PM
We're comparing fan cuts as being legit now?
I didn't say that, you did
All I would state is in absence of director cuts, the improvements made by certain fan cuts (Chaos, Evanus) make them legitimately better
Yeah but Covenant doesn't require the "Paradise Lost" Edition to become good the Theatrical Version already is, Prometheus or Paradise requires the "Special Edition" to become good the Theatrical Version editing's near incomprehensible at times.
Quote from: David Weyland on Mar 07, 2020, 10:20:38 PM
Quote from: SM on Mar 07, 2020, 10:05:37 PM
We're comparing fan cuts as being legit now?
I didn't say that, you did
No, I asked a question.
I'll take your answer as 'No'.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Mar 08, 2020, 12:15:30 AM
Yeah but Covenant doesn't require the "Paradise Lost" Edition to become good the Theatrical Version already is, Prometheus or Paradise requires the "Special Edition" to become good the Theatrical Version editing's near incomprehensible at times.
I'm still on the Prometheus side, no matter which cut.
If covenant would've maintained the roll it had going for the first half or 1/3 of the movie, it would've whupped Prometheus' @$$. Unfortunately, it does not, and goes down in a turdy flame.
Quote from: Huggs on Mar 08, 2020, 03:05:48 AM
If covenant would've maintained the roll it had going for the first half or 1/3 of the movie, it would've whupped Prometheus' @$$. Unfortunately, it does not, and goes down in a turdy flame.
Word.
Honestly I think the first 2/3 of Covenant is pretty great, then the alien gets on the Covenant and it's way too rushed and not that interesting. But the very last scene is great, so there's that.
I totally agree personally, and with Covenant it's infinitely more coherent in every respect, most importantly the people we get to know, more understandable and intelligent considering the fact no one's done it before, just as the average person relies on technology the majority of people in charge onboard the Covenant trust, and rely on technology. It's more egregious for a scientist, to overlook certain things in such a situation, especially the apparent best.
Quote from: Huggs on Mar 08, 2020, 03:05:48 AM
If covenant would've maintained the roll it had going for the first half or 1/3 of the movie, it would've whupped Prometheus' @$$. Unfortunately, it does not, and goes down in a turdy flame.
What about it made it go down in a turdy flame?
Guess he don't like David.
Quote from: PsyKore on Mar 09, 2020, 04:36:10 AM
Quote from: Huggs on Mar 08, 2020, 03:05:48 AM
If covenant would've maintained the roll it had going for the first half or 1/3 of the movie, it would've whupped Prometheus' @$$. Unfortunately, it does not, and goes down in a turdy flame.
What about it made it go down in a turdy flame?
The rest of it.
Quote from: SM on Mar 09, 2020, 05:48:29 AM
Guess he don't like David.
I don't like the cornbread either.
Quote from: Evanus on Mar 08, 2020, 01:18:20 PM
Honestly I think the first 2/3 of Covenant is pretty great, then the alien gets on the Covenant and it's way too rushed and not that interesting. But the very last scene is great, so there's that.
It's the same for me. I loved everything until the Alien's introduction and then it just feels like Ridley is bored and wants to rush towards the big reveal at the end (which, granted, I do love). I wish they'd have stuck with the Neomorph's throughout. It's the same problem I have with Spaiht's Engineers script. Shouldn't have tried to shoehorn in the Aliens.
Quote from: SM on Mar 09, 2020, 05:48:29 AM
Guess he don't like David.
I can understand that, and it's fair enough, but it doesn't make it a turd film.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 09, 2020, 09:16:51 AM
I loved everything until the Alien's introduction and then it just feels like Ridley is bored
Yeah, I got that impression as well. There's also an air of cynicism with how the camera zooms in and lingers on the drinking bird. Although, I still like this incarnation of the Alien better than Resurrection's and AvP. And it was neat to see it walking bipedal again. But yes, it was definitely lacking the proper Alien gravitas that you'd expect Ridley to do best.
QuoteI can understand that, and it's fair enough, but it doesn't make it a turd film.
I can't understand it. David rules.
It's a very, very long way from a turd.
Quote from: SM on Mar 09, 2020, 11:49:56 PM
QuoteI can understand that, and it's fair enough, but it doesn't make it a turd film.
I can't understand it. David rules.
It's a very, very long way from a turd.
:Thumbs up:
It's not all turdy. Just the @$$ end of it.
Quote from: SM on Mar 09, 2020, 11:49:56 PM
QuoteI can understand that, and it's fair enough, but it doesn't make it a turd film.
I can't understand it. David rules.
It's a very, very long way from a turd.
Not turd. "Turdy flame" ;D
I'd genuinely rank it above everything after the original Alien Trilogy apart from The Cold Forge and Phalanx.
Quote from: SM on Mar 09, 2020, 11:49:56 PM
QuoteI can understand that, and it's fair enough, but it doesn't make it a turd film.
I can't understand it. David rules..
I really like
Prometheus David, but
Covenant David plays like a bad Bond villain for me.
Quote from: SiL on Mar 10, 2020, 02:51:15 AM
Quote from: SM on Mar 09, 2020, 11:49:56 PM
QuoteI can understand that, and it's fair enough, but it doesn't make it a turd film.
I can't understand it. David rules..
I really like Prometheus David, but Covenant David plays like a bad Bond villain for me.
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/t_original/ptzf5bg4xp2zqteap9sw.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/i4hhgrP.gif)
Quote from: SiL on Mar 10, 2020, 02:51:15 AM
Quote from: SM on Mar 09, 2020, 11:49:56 PM
QuoteI can understand that, and it's fair enough, but it doesn't make it a turd film.
I can't understand it. David rules..
I really like Prometheus David, but Covenant David plays like a bad Bond villain for me.
He's at least an average Bond villain.
But bond villains don't win.
And David is enjoying so much win.
I'm pretty certain David would have lost in the third film.
Quote from: SM on Mar 10, 2020, 03:05:56 AM
He's at least an average Bond villain.
Eh, he's a Dr No at best.
Quote from: SiL on Mar 10, 2020, 04:15:59 AM
Quote from: SM on Mar 10, 2020, 03:05:56 AM
He's at least an average Bond villain.
Eh, he's a Dr No at best.
He's more of a Baron Samedi. Which is actually higher up in terms of awesomeness. Dr. No didn't have a real Dragon or actual hands, so he kinda sucks.
Yeah, he kind'a sucks -- that's my point!
Although nice 6 degrees of separation; Live and Let Die's main villain was Kananga, played by none other than Yaphet Koto.
Quote from: SiL on Mar 10, 2020, 04:48:07 AM
Yeah, he kind'a sucks -- that's my point!
Although nice 6 degrees of separation; Live and Let Die's main villain was Kananga, played by none other than Yaphet Koto.
I know. But Kananga lost all credibility with me when he tried to snuff Jane Seymour. Bad guy or not, you don't feed a woman like that to sharks.
As for David though, let me rephrase. Dr. No sucks. David kinda sucks. Although he sucked slightly less in Prometheus. The suckage increased in Covenant though, so I guess you could say he just got better at it. Sucking, that is.
Covenant David is as lame as Dr No as far as I'm concerned. Prometheus David was better.
Quote from: PsyKore on Mar 09, 2020, 11:43:16 PM
And it was neat to see it walking bipedal again. But yes, it was definitely lacking the proper Alien gravitas that you'd expect Ridley to do best.
Completely agree there. When the Alien comes into the terraforming bay at the end was genuinely creepy as shit. I actually think the Alien does look genuinely good, even if it is CG.
Quote from: SiL on Mar 10, 2020, 02:51:15 AM
Quote from: SM on Mar 09, 2020, 11:49:56 PM
QuoteI can understand that, and it's fair enough, but it doesn't make it a turd film.
I can't understand it. David rules..
I really like Prometheus David, but Covenant David plays like a bad Bond villain for me.
Personally I quite like him. He could have toned down the obvious at times, but I do like the thematic elements behind his villainy.
Quote from: Fiendishly Inventive on Mar 10, 2020, 12:55:01 AM
I'd genuinely rank it above everything after the original Alien Trilogy apart from The Cold Forge and Phalanx.
I'd throw in Isolation there, but also agreed.
Draws masses from Lecter, maybe too much; the drawings, Clarice(Shaw)
Prometheus was way, way more successful than Covenant. I think general public(NOT fans like us) prefer an Epic(Epic in terms of Scope and Visuals) from Ridley Scott like Prometheus. General public don't care about Alien.
Ridley Scott always has good visuals in his movies.