This will be a very extensive thread that I will be keeping alive by posting a little bit of information once or twice a day.
From Colonization to Globalization: 6 Million People Murdered in CIA Secret Warshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3ioJGMCr-Y# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3ioJGMCr-Y#)
The former CIA-Station Chief in Angola and National Security Council member - John Stockwell gives a very brief but powerful, detailed, and compelling account of CIA-covert operations in Third World countries which is essentially a war against "radical populism" (http://articles.sfgate.com/2004-04-30/news/17423076_1_militaries-latin-american-studies-death-sentence) (organizing peasants, trade unionists, Church Clergy that aid the poor, journalists, health care workers, human rights advocates, pro democracy movements and so on) in which the primary threat (http://books.google.com/books?id=bIQ1AAAAIAAJ&q=It+has+meant:+%281%29+A+serious+reduction+of+the+potential+resource+base+and+market+opportunities+of+the+West+owing+to+the+subtraction+of+the+communist+areas+from+the+international+economy+and+their+economic+transformation+in+ways+which+reduce+their+willingness+and+ability+to+complement+the+industrial+economies+of+the+West.&dq=It+has+meant:+%281%29+A+serious+reduction+of+the+potential+resource+base+and+market+opportunities+of+the+West+owing+to+the+subtraction+of+the+communist+areas+from+the+international+economy+and+their+economic+transformation+in+ways+which+reduce+their+willingness+and+ability+to+complement+the+industrial+economies+of+the+West.&hl=en&ei=7Zc8TOG3LYXGlQekpO3_Ag&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAw) is "their economic transformation in ways that reduce their willingness and ability to complement the industrial economies of the West", (Woodrow Wilson Foundation) as well as, (http://books.google.com/books?ei=9kwqTKyXL8H_lgem1ImqBA&ct=result&id=G9wZAAAAMAAJ&dq=Throughout+Latin+America+US+policymakers+worked+to+expand+U.S.+influence.+Both+the+Harry+S.+Truman+and+the+Dwight+D.+Eisenhower+administrations+sought+a+favorable+climate+for+US+business+and+private+investment%2C+encouraged+US+access+to+raw+materials+%28especially+oil+and+other+strategic+minerals%29%2C+resisted+%22excessive+industrial+development%2C%22+and+they+condemned+government+intervention+and+interference+in+the+economy.+According+to+these+officials+economic+nationalism+injured+U.S.+business.+They+perceived+American+security+and+continuing+prosperity+as+being+dependant+upon+the+maintenance+of+a+strong+international+economy+with+free+access+to+markets+and+raw+materials.&q=Following+World+War+II+the+United+States+assumed%2C+out+of+self-interest%2C+responsibility+for+the+welfare+of+the+world+capitalist+system.+American+leaders+tried+to+reshape+the+world+to+fit+U.S.+needs+and+standards.+Throughout+Latin+America+US+policymakers+worked+to+expand+U.S.+influence.+Both+the+Harry+S.+Truman+and+the+Dwight+D.+Eisenhower+administrations+sought+a+favorable+climate+for+US+business+and+private+investment%2C+encouraged+US+access+to+raw+materials+%28especially+oil+and+other+strategic+minerals%29%2C+resisted+%22excessive+industrial+development%2C%22+and+they+condemned+government+intervention+and+interference+in+the+economy.+According+to+these+officials+economic+nationalism+injured+U.S.+business.+They+perceived+American+security+and+continuing+prosperity+as+being+dependant+upon+the+maintenance+of+a+strong+international+economy+with+free+access+to+markets+and+raw+materials.) "excessive industrial development" (CIA Chief Historian Gerald Haines). These are people who may be affected by strange and unnacceptable ideas about control over "our resources" in their own lands.
QuoteAmericas Third World War
How 6 Million People Were Murdered in CIA Secret Wars Against Third World Countries
THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA:
John Stockwell, former CIA Station Chief in Angola in 1976, working for then Director of the CIA, George Bush. He spent 13 years in the agency. He gives a short history of CIA covert operations. He is a very compelling speaker and the highest level CIA officer to testify to the Congress about his actions. He estimates that over 6 million people have died in CIA covert actions, and this was in the late 1980's.
by John Stockwell
A lecture given in October, 1987
Part I - Part II
John Stockwell is the highest-ranking CIA official ever to leave the agency and go public. He ran a CIA intelligence-gathering post in Vietnam, was the task-force commander of the CIA's secret war in Angola in 1975 and 1976, and was awarded the Medal of Merit before he resigned. Stockwell's book In Search of Enemies, published by W.W. Norton 1978, is an international best-seller.
Excerpts from Fomer CIA Station Chief, John Stockwell's book, "The Praetorian Guard" (http://books.google.com/books?id=lmv5QjZt1kMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+praetorian+guard+john+stockwell&source=bl&ots=6d-OORB_u5&sig=zSAsDndmlvZw6ReMDsG6w_l2Q9E&hl=en&ei=MMakTYuQAZLogQf82ciwCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false):
Quote... the United States [is] cast in the role of Praetorian Guard, protecting the interests of the global financial order against fractious elements in the Third World.
QuoteThe CIA and the big corporations were, in my experience, in step with each other. Later I realized that they may argue about details of strategy - a small war here or there. However, both are vigorously committed to supporting the system.
Quote...the CIA has overthrown functioning democracies in over 20 countries.
QuoteDuring the 1980's the CIA created, trained, funded death squads like the Treasury Police in El Salvador who have been responsible for killing and "disapearing" as many as 70,000 people according to the count of the Catholic Church.
QuoteGeorge Bush has continued military support for the death squads in El Salvador under the guise of the "War on Drugs", he is putting the U.S. military in other Latin American countries - Peru for example - where they are doing the same thing that they have been doing in El Salvador: Flying planes, strafing and rocketing villages.
QuoteThe United States has been supporting with literally billions of dollars the activities of armed forces and death squads that were, and still are, slaughtering people in countries like El Salvador and Guatemala.
QuoteWe created and left behind [in Nicaragua] a National Guard with officers trained in the United States who would be loyal to our interests. This arrangement was the decisive feature of the new era of neocolonialism.
Quote...stirring up deadly ethnic and racial strife has been a standard technique used by the CIA.
QuoteNothing illustrates the power to rationalize cynicism as well as the Public Safety Program, also called the Office of Public Safety. For about twenty-five years, the CIA, working through the Agency for International Development, trained and organized police and paramilitary officers from around the world in techniques of population control, repression, and torture. Schools were set up in the United States, Panama, and Asia, from which tens of thousands graduated. In some cases, former Nazi officers from Hitler's Third Reich were used as instructors.
QuoteNow more clearly than ever, the CIA, with its related institutions, is exposed as an agency of destabilization and repression. Throughout its history, it has organized secret wars that killed millions of people in the Third World who had no capability of doing physical harm to the United States.
QuoteConservative intellectuals admit the harshness of U.S. counter-revolutionary activities but argue that they are necessary.... They know that people die by the thousands in these activities, but claim that they are nevertheless necessary to maintain U.S. security and the U.S. standard of living.
QuoteThe owners of the Washington Post long ago acknowledged that the Post is the government's voice to the people. In 1981, Katherine Graham, who owns the Post and Newsweek announced that her editors would "cooperate with the national security interests." National security in this context means "CIA."
Quote... the CIA had been running thousands of operations over the years... there have been about 3,000 major covert operations and over 10,000 minor operations... all designed to disrupt, destabilize, or modify the activities of other countries... But they are all illegal and they all disrupt the normal functioning, often the democratic functioning, of other societies. They raise serious questions about the moral responsibility of the United States in the international society of nations.
QuoteThe current War on Drugs, with its broad rationales for aggressive response, police action, and stringent new laws, has quickly replaced the old anti-Christ of Communism in the hearts and minds of the national security establishment.
QuoteThe military has ... seen its budget restored, to an all-time high, and it has ...new rationales for continued dominance of U.S. society. The Third World is the new enemy, effectively replacing the Cold War rationales for militarism
QuoteAs the Praetorian Guard, fighting wars for multinational interests while also paying for such adventures, our relative economic stability, domestic social and material infrastructure, and the freedom and liberties of the American people may all be forfeited.
I live in south america. even knowing all the CIA did, f**k the Commies.
that's all.
Which Commies, exactly? I'm all for Marx, f**k Stalin and Mao, to be blunt.
the ones that Steal, Persecute, starve and Control the people they "fought" so much for. so all of them.
Communism is not an Ideology, is an Idealism. the ones that advocate for it are either naive and ignorant, or Corrupt and Resentful.
Is any of this "news"?
US Imperial Planning for "Our Little Region Over Here" (Latin America)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKwJI9axblQ# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKwJI9axblQ#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh3o4mPwLEs# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh3o4mPwLEs#)
By Noam Chomsky
In the words of Diplomatic and CIA Chief Historian, Gerald K. Haines: (http://books.google.com/books?ei=9kwqTKyXL8H_lgem1ImqBA&ct=result&id=G9wZAAAAMAAJ&dq=Throughout+Latin+America+US+policymakers+worked+to+expand+U.S.+influence.+Both+the+Harry+S.+Truman+and+the+Dwight+D.+Eisenhower+administrations+sought+a+favorable+climate+for+US+business+and+private+investment%2C+encouraged+US+access+to+raw+materials+%28especially+oil+and+other+strategic+minerals%29%2C+resisted+%22excessive+industrial+development%2C%22+and+they+condemned+government+intervention+and+interference+in+the+economy.+According+to+these+officials+economic+nationalism+injured+U.S.+business.+They+perceived+American+security+and+continuing+prosperity+as+being+dependant+upon+the+maintenance+of+a+strong+international+economy+with+free+access+to+markets+and+raw+materials.&q=Following+World+War+II+the+United+States+assumed%2C+out+of+self-interest%2C+responsibility+for+the+welfare+of+the+world+capitalist+system.+American+leaders+tried+to+reshape+the+world+to+fit+U.S.+needs+and+standards.+Throughout+Latin+America+US+policymakers+worked+to+expand+U.S.+influence.+Both+the+Harry+S.+Truman+and+the+Dwight+D.+Eisenhower+administrations+sought+a+favorable+climate+for+US+business+and+private+investment%2C+encouraged+US+access+to+raw+materials+%28especially+oil+and+other+strategic+minerals%29%2C+resisted+%22excessive+industrial+development%2C%22+and+they+condemned+government+intervention+and+interference+in+the+economy.+According+to+these+officials+economic+nationalism+injured+U.S.+business.+They+perceived+American+security+and+continuing+prosperity+as+being+dependant+upon+the+maintenance+of+a+strong+international+economy+with+free+access+to+markets+and+raw+materials.)
QuoteFollowing World War II the United States assumed, out of self-interest, responsibility for the welfare of the world capitalist system. American leaders tried to reshape the world to fit U.S. needs and standards.
Throughout Latin America US policymakers worked to expand U.S. influence. [Washington] sought a favorable climate for US business and private investment, encouraged US access to raw materials (especially oil and other strategic minerals), resisted "excessive industrial development," and they condemned government intervention and interference in the economy.
According to these officials economic nationalism injured U.S. business. They perceived American security and continuing prosperity as being dependant upon the maintenance of a strong international economy with free access to markets and raw materials.
The first principal [of] U.S. foreign policy is designed to create and maintain an international order in which U.S.-based business can prosper, a world of "open societies," meaning societies that are open to profitable investment, to expansion of export markets and transfer of capital, and to exploitation of material and human resources on the part of U.S. corporations and their local affiliates. "Open societies," in the true meaning of the term, are societies that are open to U.S. economic penetration and political control.
Preferably, these "open societies" should have parliamentary democratic forms, but this is a distinctly secondary consideration. Parliamentary forms..are tolerable only as long as economic, social and ideological institutions, and the coercive forces of the state, are firmly in the hands of groups that can be trusted to act in general accord with the needs of those who awn and manage U.S. society.
If this condition is satisfied than parliamentary forms in some client states are a useful device, ensuring the dominance of minority elements favored by U.S. elites while enabling the U.S. political leadership to mobilize its own population in support of foreign adventures masked in idealistic rhetoric ("defense of democracy") but undertaken for quite different purposes.
In its actual usage, the term "democracy" in U.S. rhetoric, refers to a system of governance in which elite elements based in the business community control the state by virtue of their dominance of private society, while the population observes quietly. So understood, democracy is a system of elite decision and public ratification, as in the United States itself.
Correspondingly, popular involvement in the formulation of public policy is considered a serious threat. It is not a step toward democracy; rather it constitutes a "crisis of democracy" (http://www.trilateral.org/projwork/tfrsums/tfr08.htm) that must be overcome. The problem arises both in the United States and in its dependencies, and has been addressed by measure ranging from public relations campaigns to death squads (http://books.google.com/books?ei=LpwvTJ_NIMWqlAf7scSQCQ&ct=result&id=HOgkAQAAIAAJ&dq=Charles+Maechling+direct+complicity+the+methods+of+Heinrich+Himmler%27s+extermination+squads&q=Charles+Maechling%2C+who+led+counter-insurgency+and+internal+defense+planning+from+1961+to+1966%2C+described+the+1962+decision+as+%27a+shift+from+toleration+of+rapacity+and+cruelty+of+the+Latin+American+military+to+direct+complicity+in+their+crimes%2C+to+US+support+for+the+methods+of+Heinrich+Himmler%27s+extermination+squads.%27), depending on which population is targeted.
In his history of hemispheric relations, British scholar Gordon Connell-Smith writes: (http://books.google.com/books?id=83UWAAAAYAAJ&q=While+paying+lip-service+to+the+encouragement+of+representative+democracy+in+Latin+America,+the+United+States+has+a+strong+interest+in+just+the+reverse&dq=While+paying+lip-service+to+the+encouragement+of+representative+democracy+in+Latin+America,+the+United+States+has+a+strong+interest+in+just+the+reverse&hl=en&ei=NEEzTOq3FcKB8ga11r2MAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBw)
QuoteWhile paying lip-service to the encouragement of representative democracy in Latin America, the United States has a strong interest in just the reverse. Apart from procedural democracy, especially the holding of elections — which only too often have proved farcical. Functioning democracy may respond to popular concerns, while the United States has been concerned with fostering the most favorable conditions for her private overseas investment.
What all this means for much of the third world, to put it crudely but accurately, is that the primary concern of the U.S. foreign policy is to guarantee the freedom to rob and exploit.
Elsewhere I have referred to this as "the Fifth Freedom." one that was not enunciated by FDR when he formulated the famous Four Freedoms, which were presented as the war aims of the Western allies during World War II: Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Worship, Freedom from Want and Freedom from Fear. The history of [U.S. foreign policy] reveals just how these fine words are to be understood: as a means to gain public support for crusades in defense of the Fifth Freedom, the one that really counts...
The threat to U.S. security [of small, weak third world countries] is too ludicrous to discuss, but the threat to U.S. foreign policy is quite real. In fact, in a certain sense it is the small, weak countries that pose the greatest threat to American foreign policy. It is quite remarkable to see the extraordinary savagery the U.S. has displayed against the weakest and most inconsequential countries...
It takes a large dose of what has sometimes been called "intentional ignorance" not to see the facts. Such blindness must be guarded zealously if state violence is to proceed on course -- always for the good of humanity, as Obama reminded us again in his Nobel Prize address.
With regard to Latin America, the matter was put most plainly by Secretary of War Henry Stimson (http://books.google.com/books?ei=t1QmTKepBoP-8AbEm7H7Dw&ct=result&id=odNrb6WOUxMC&dq=I+think+that+it%27s+not+asking+too+much+to+have+our+little+region+over+here+which+never+has+bothered+anybody&q=Secretary%3A+I+think+that+it%27s+not+asking+too+much+to+have+our+little+region+over+here+which+never+has+bothered+anybody) in May 1945 when he was explaining how we must eliminate and dismantle regional systems dominated by any other power, particularly the British, while maintaining and extending our own system. He explained with regard to Latin America as follows:
QuoteI think that it's not asking too much to have our little region over here [Latin America] which never has bothered anybody.
The basic thinking behind all of this has been explained quite lucidly on a number of occasions. (This is a very open society and if one wants to learn what's going on, you can do it; it takes a little work, but the documents are there and the history is also there.) One of the clearest and most lucid accounts of the planning behind this was by George Kennan, who was one of the most thoughtful, humane, and liberal of the planners, and in fact was eliminated from the State Depatment largely for that reason. Kennan was the head of the State Department policy planning staff in the late 1940s.
In the following document, PPS23, February 1948 (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Memo_PPS23_by_George_Kennan), he outlined the basic thinking:
QuoteWe have about 50% of the world's wealth, but only 6.3% of its population. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity . To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We should concentrate our policy on seeing to it that those areas remain in hands which we can control or rely on.
We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world-benefaction. We should cease to talk about vague and unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living standards, and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better.
Now, recall that this is a Top Secret document. The idealistic slogans are, of course, to be constantly trumpeted by scholarship, the schools, the media, and the rest of the ideological system in order to pacify the domestic population, giving rise to accounts such as those of the "official view" that I've already described. Recall again that this is a view from the dovish, liberal, humane end of the spectrum. But it is lucid and clear.
There are some questions that one can raise about Kennan's formulation, a number of them, but I'll keep to one: whether he is right in suggesting that "human rights, the raising of the living standards, and democratization" should be dismissed as irrelevant to U.S. foreign policy. Actually, a review of the historical record suggests a different picture, namely that the United States has often opposed with tremendous ferocity, and even violence, these elements -- human rights, democratization, and the raising of living standards.
This is particularly the case in Latin America and there are very good reasons for it. The commitment to these doctrines is inconsistent with the use of harsh measures to maintain the disparity, to insure our control over 50 percent of the resources, and our exploitation of the world.
In short, what we might call the "Fifth Freedom" (there were Four Freedoms, you remember, but there was one that was left out), the Freedom to Rob, and that's really the only one that counts; the others were mostly for show. And in order to maintain the freedom to rob and exploit, we do have to consistently oppose democratization, the raising of living standards, and human rights. And we do consistently oppose them; that, of course, is in the real world.
This Top Secret document referred to the Far East, but Kennan applied the same ideas to Latin America in a briefing for Latin American ambassadors (http://books.google.com/books?id=RqMp5TsWCqkC&pg=PA109&dq=the+protection+of+our+raw+materials+george+kennan+1950&hl=en&ei=q1EzTOnpB4HGlQfhm7m_Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=the%20protection%20of%20our%20raw%20materials%20george%20kennan%201950&f=false) in which he explained that one of the main concerns of U.S. policy is:
Quotethe protection of our raw materials.
Notice that they are
'our' raw materials, which, by accident, happen to be somewhere else. This sort of vulgar Marxist rhetoric is typical of internal documents and the business press, but it varies.
Who must we protect
our raw materials from? Well, primarily, the domestic populations, the indigenous population, which may have ideas of their own about raising the living standards, democratization, and human rights. And that's inconsistent with maintaining the disparity. The indigenous populations have the tendency to try to use
"our raw materials" for their own purposes. Now thats a "conspiracy" that has to be stopped!
How will we protect
our raw materials from the indigenous population? Well, the answer is the following: (http://books.google.com/books?id=RqMp5TsWCqkC&pg=PA109&dq=The+final+answer+might+be+an+unpleasant+one,+but+we+should+not+hesitate+before+police+repression+by+the+local+government.+This+is+not+shameful,+since+the+Communists+are+essentially+traitors.+It+is+better+to+have+a+strong+regime+in+power+than+a+liberal+government+if+it+is+indulgent+and+relaxed+and+penetrated+by+Communists.&hl=en&ei=vVgmTO-JK8KB8gbN9IHKDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=The%20final%20answer%20might%20be%20an%20unpleasant%20one%2C%20but%20we%20should%20not%20hesitate%20before%20police%20repression%20by%20the%20local%20government.%20This%20is%20not%20shameful%2C%20since%20the%20Communists%20are%20essentially%20traitors.%20It%20is%20better%20to%20have%20a%20strong%20regime%20in%20power%20than%20a%20liberal%20government%20if%20it%20is%20indulgent%20and%20relaxed%20and%20penetrated%20by%20Communists.&f=false)
QuoteThe final answer might be an unpleasant one, but we should not hesitate before police repression by the local government. This is not shameful, since the Communists are essentially traitors. It is better to have a strong regime in power than a liberal government if it is indulgent and relaxed and penetrated by Communists.
Well, who are the Communists? "Communists" was cover term used in American political theology to refer to:
Quotepeople who are committed to the belief that the government has direct responsibility for the welfare of the people.
I'm quoting the words of a 1949 State Department intelligence report (http://books.google.com/books?id=RqMp5TsWCqkC&pg=PA97&dq=Probably+the+most+striking+political+development+in+other+American+republics+during+the+past+half-century+is+the+wide+acceptance+of+the+idea+that+the+government+has+direct+responsibility+for+the+welfare+of+the+people.&hl=en&ei=LwWrTeKQHcLJgQepnfnzBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Probably%20the%20most%20striking%20political%20development%20in%20other%20American%20republics%20during%20the%20past%20half-century%20is%20the%20wide%20acceptance%20of%20the%20idea%20that%20the%20government%20has%20direct%20responsibility%20for%20the%20welfare%20of%20the%20people.&f=false) which warned about the spread of this grim and evil doctrine, which does, of course, threaten "our raw materials" if we can't abort it somehow.
In July 1941, a major study by the US State Department and War Department (http://books.google.com/books?id=pIIeG_yn72wC&pg=PA78&dq=Communism+which+superficially+at+least+can+be+associated+with+a+rising+tide+all+over+the+world+wherein+the+common+man+aspires+to+higher+and+wider+horizons.&hl=en&ei=JlsmTIGxGcL-8AbCzMTIDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Communism%20which%20superficially%20at%20least%20can%20be%20associated%20with%20a%20rising%20tide%20all%20over%20the%20world%20wherein%20the%20common%20man%20aspires%20to%20higher%20and%20wider%20horizons.&f=false) defined Communism and warned that:
QuoteCommunism which superficially at least can be associated with a rising tide all over the world wherein the common man aspires to higher and wider horizons.
Secretary of State, John Foster Dulles (http://books.google.com/books?id=z1dMRbjQhhoC&pg=PA168&dq=The+poor+people+are+the+ones+they+appeal+to+and+they+have+always+wanted+to+plunder+the+rich.&hl=en&ei=nlsmTKKBMYG88gbzzdXlDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q&f=false) warned that:
QuoteThe poor people are the ones [the communists] appeal to and they have always wanted to plunder the rich.
So they must be overcome, to protect our doctrine that the rich should plunder the poor.
Uhh, no, there was a communist government here. they tried to detain my grandfather. almost do things to my mom.
honestly, all of these are assumptions or have equally biased sources. I do not care what are you trying to show, i do not care what do you think, i only care that you are obviously looking for trouble and this certainly doesn't belong in a forum like this.
CIA Agent on US War Against the Poor in the Third World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnHx1QXU7gg# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnHx1QXU7gg#)
The Threat to US Domination by Populism In a 1949 the Office of Intelligence Research Report (http://books.google.com/books?id=RqMp5TsWCqkC&pg=PA97&dq=Probably+the+most+striking+political+development+in+other+American+republics+during+the+past+half-century+is+the+wide+acceptance+of+the+idea+that+the+government+has+direct+responsibility+for+the+welfare+of+the+people.&hl=en&ei=LwWrTeKQHcLJgQepnfnzBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Probably%20the%20most%20striking%20political%20development%20in%20other%20American%20republics%20during%20the%20past%20half-century%20is%20the%20wide%20acceptance%20of%20the%20idea%20that%20the%20government%20has%20direct%20responsibility%20for%20the%20welfare%20of%20the%20people.&f=false) serveyed Central America and warned that:
QuoteProbably the most striking political development in other American republics during the past half-century is the wide acceptance of the idea that the government has direct responsibility for the welfare of the people.
This has resulted in a phenomenal growth of social and economic legislation designed to protect labor, distribute land more widely and increase opportunities for education.
The prime US concern in the Western Hemisphere quoting from declassified State Department records (http://books.google.com/books?id=U7YrAAAAYAAJ&q=The+philosophy+of+the+new+nationalism+embraces+policies+designed+to+bring+about+a+broader+distribution+of+wealth+and+to+raise+the+standard+of+living+of+the+masses.&dq=The+philosophy+of+the+new+nationalism+embraces+policies+designed+to+bring+about+a+broader+distribution+of+wealth+and+to+raise+the+standard+of+living+of+the+masses.&hl=en&ei=3WYzTJ2zNMP7lwe-mb2_Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEkQ6AEwCA), was what was called "the philosophy of new nationalism" which is taking root in Latin America:
QuoteThe philosophy of new nationalism embraces policies designed to bring about a broader distribution of wealth and to raise the standard of living of the masses.
US State Department political advisor, Laurence Duggan (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbs=bks%3A1&q=Laurence+Duggan+The+Americas%3A+the+search+for+hemisphere+security+Economic+nationalism+is+the+common+denominator+of+the+new+aspirations+for+industrialization.+Latin+Americans+are+convinced+that+the+first+beneficiaries+of+the+development+of+a+country%27s+resources+should+be+the+people+of+that+country.&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) warned that:
QuoteEconomic nationalism is the common denominator of the new aspirations for industrialization. Latin Americans are convinced that the first beneficiaries of the development of a country's resources should be the people of that country.
Well, none of that is acceptable. The first beneficiaries must be US investors, their counterparts elsewhere, and their local associates: they have a prior claim on the human and material resources of the service areas.
This was the conclusion of a prestigious study group of the study group of the Woodrow Wilson Foundation (http://books.google.com/books?id=bIQ1AAAAIAAJ&q=It+has+meant:+(1)+A+serious+reduction+of+the+potential+resource+base+and+market+opportunities+of+the+West+owing+to+the+subtraction+of+the+communist+areas+from+the+international+economy+and+their+economic+transformation+in+ways+which+reduce+their+willingness+and+ability+to+complement+the+industrial+economies+of+the+West.&dq=It+has+meant:+(1)+A+serious+reduction+of+the+potential+resource+base+and+market+opportunities+of+the+West+owing+to+the+subtraction+of+the+communist+areas+from+the+international+economy+and+their+economic+transformation+in+ways+which+reduce+their+willingness+and+ability+to+complement+the+industrial+economies+of+the+West.&hl=en&ei=fmgzTKPZNcSAlAf3zam-Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAw) in 1955, which warned that the primary threat of so called "New Nationalism", "Communism" or what Washington now refers to as "Radical Populism" is:
Quotetheir economic transformation in ways that reduce their willingness and ability to complement the industrial economies of the West.
That is essentially correct and is a good operational definition of "Communism" in American political discourse. Our government is committed to that view. If a government is so evil or unwise as to undertake a course of action of this sort, it immediately becomes an enemy. It becomes a part of the "monolithic and ruthless conspiracy" to take over the world, as John F. Kennedy put it. It is postulated that it has been taken over by the Russians if that's the policy that it appears to be committed to.
And it was President Woodrow Wilson (http://books.google.com/books?id=3po8AAAAIAAJ&q=Since+trade+ignores+national+boundaries+and+the+manufacturer+insists+on+having+the+world+as+a+market,+the+flag+of+his+nation+must+follow+him,+and+the+doors+of+the+nations+which+are+closed+against+him+must+be+battered+down.+Concessions+obtained+by+financiers+must+be+safeguarded+by+ministers+of+state,+even+if+the+sovereignty+of+unwilling+nations+be+outraged+in+the+process.+Colonies+must+be+obtained+or+planted,+in+order+that+no+useful+corner+of+the+world+may+be+overlooked+or+left+unused.&dq=Since+trade+ignores+national+boundaries+and+the+manufacturer+insists+on+having+the+world+as+a+market,+the+flag+of+his+nation+must+follow+him,+and+the+doors+of+the+nations+which+are+closed+against+him+must+be+battered+down.+Concessions+obtained+by+financiers+must+be+safeguarded+by+ministers+of+state,+even+if+the+sovereignty+of+unwilling+nations+be+outraged+in+the+process.+Colonies+must+be+obtained+or+planted,+in+order+that+no+useful+corner+of+the+world+may+be+overlooked+or+left+unused.&hl=en&ei=QLUWTLvCEcWBlAfapfCVDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBzgU) himself that declared the following:
QuoteSince trade ignores national boundaries and the manufacturer insists on having the world as a market, the flag of his nation must follow him, and the doors of the nations which are closed against him must be battered down. Concessions obtained by financiers must be safeguarded by ministers of state, even if the sovereignty of unwilling nations be outraged in the process. Colonies must be obtained or planted, in order that no useful corner of the world may be overlooked or left unused.
The US position prevailed, given power relations. Latin America was forced to accept what was called the Economic Charter for the Americas (http://"http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1945/450226a.html"), that would "eliminate economic nationalism in all its forms" and the history of the region until today revolves around efforts to enforce those rules which are to apply elsewhere as well:
QuoteELIMINATION OF ECONOMIC NATIONALISM
In order that international economic collaboration may be realistic and effective, to work for the elimination of economic nationalism in all its forms.
The current trade agreements and the so-called globalization project are the latest phase in imposing the right priorities on a recalcitrant world.
These themes are constantly reiterated in the internal record and high-level planning documents and, more important, implemented in practice: so, ten years after the hemispheric conference, the National Security Council (the highest planning body) identified the main threat to US interests in a Memorandum titled N.S.C. 144/1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=QVTWqYCFpR4C&pg=PA112&dq=there+is+a+trend+in+Latin+America+toward+nationalist+regimes+maintained+in+large+part+by+appeals+to+the+masses+of+the+population.+Concurrently,+there+is+an+increasing+popular+demand+for+immediate+improvement+in+the+low+living+standards+of+the+masses,+with+the+result+that+most+Latin+American+governments+are+under+intense+domestic+political+pressures+to+increase+production+and+to+diversify+their+economies.+A+realistic+and+constructive+approach+to+this+need+which+recognizes+the+importance+of+bettering+the+conditions+for+the+general+population,+is+essential+to+arrest+the+drift+in+the+area+toward+radical+and+nationalistic+regimes.&hl=en&ei=MsIzTMyyNMWAlAeus5jBCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=there%20is%20a%20trend%20in%20Latin%20America%20toward%20nationalist%20regimes%20maintained%20in%20large%20part%20by%20appeals%20to%20the%20masses%20of%20the%20population.%20Concurrently%2C%20there%20is%20an%20increasing%20popular%20demand%20for%20immediate%20improvement%20in%20the%20low%20living%20standards%20of%20the%20masses%2C%20with%20the%20result%20that%20most%20Latin%20American%20governments%20are%20under%20intense%20domestic%20political%20pressures%20to%20increase%20production%20and%20to%20diversify%20their%20economies.%20A%20realistic%20and%20constructive%20approach%20to%20this%20need%20which%20recognizes%20the%20importance%20of%20bettering%20the%20conditions%20for%20the%20general%20population%2C%20is%20essential%20to%20arrest%20the%20drift%20in%20the%20area%20toward%20radical%20and%20nationalistic%20regimes.&f=false) (March 18, 1953), "United States Objectives and Courses of Action With Respect to Latin America":
Quotethere is a trend in Latin America toward nationalist regimes maintained in large part by appeals to the masses of the population. Concurrently, there is an increasing popular demand for immediate improvement in the low living standards of the masses, with the result that most Latin American governments are under intense domestic political pressures to increase production and to diversify their economies.
A realistic and constructive approach to this need which recognizes the importance of bettering the conditions for the general population, is essential to arrest the drift in the area toward radical and nationalistic regimes.
Nationalist regimes that respond to domestic concerns conlicts with N.S.C. 5432/1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=duQtAAAAYAAJ&q=encourage+Latin+American+governments+by+economic+assistance+and+other+means+to+base+their+economies+on+a+system+of+private+enterprise+and,+as+essential+thereto,+to+create+a+political+and+economic+climate+conducive+to+private+investment,+of+both+domestic+and+foreign+capital,+including+opportunity+to+earn+and+in+the+case+of+foreign+capital+to+repatriate+a+reasonable+return.+The+protection+of+our+raw+materials.&dq=encourage+Latin+American+governments+by+economic+assistance+and+other+means+to+base+their+economies+on+a+system+of+private+enterprise+and,+as+essential+thereto,+to+create+a+political+and+economic+climate+conducive+to+private+investment,+of+both+domestic+and+foreign+capital,+including+opportunity+to+earn+and+in+the+case+of+foreign+capital+to+repatriate+a+reasonable+return.+The+protection+of+our+raw+materials.&hl=en&ei=bMIzTMjNDMaqlAfW8oXCCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAg) (1954):
Quote[The United States must] encourage Latin American governments by economic assistance and other means to base their economies on a system of private enterprise and, as essential thereto, to create a political and economic climate conducive to private investment, of both domestic and foreign capital, including opportunity to earn and in the case of foreign capital to repatriate a reasonable return.
As well as:
QuoteThe protection of our raw materials.
A CIA National Intelligence Estimate (http://www.faqs.org/cia/docs/126/0000010447/CONDITIONS-AND-TRENDS-IN-LATIN-AMERICA-AFFECTING-US-SECURITY.html) (1952) titled "CONDITIONS AND TRENDS IN LATIN AMERICA AFFECTING US SECURITY", warned that "
our raw materials" are threatened by "the pressures of social unrest and nationalism" and the "trend toward nationalist regimes" and that these trends may "affect Hemisphere solidarity and US security interests in Latin America":
QuoteTo identify the factors affecting Latin American political stability and cooperation with the United States, and to estimate the trends likely to affect Latin American political and military cooperation and the availability of Latin American strategic resources.
The political instability now trident in Latin America results from serious disturbance of the traditional social order by new economic and social forces. The principal political trend in Latin America is toward nationalistic regimes maintained in large part by demagogic appeal to the depressed masses of the population. The pressures of social unrest and nationalism make it difficult for Latin American governments to render on all occasions the degree of diplomatic or economic support desired by the United States.
Latin America has traditionally served as supplier of raw materials and foodstuffs to the highly industrialised countries of North America and Europe, and has depended on those countries for nearly all of it's requirements of manufactured products. The Latin Americans, however, are no longer willing to accept what they describe as colonial economic status. They seek greater degree of economic independance and stability through such measures as protective tariffs, exchange restrictions, export controls, and government sponsored industrialization.
Eventually the trend toward nationalism, if it continues, will seriously affect Hemisphere solidarity and US security interests in Latin America . Latin American strategic raw materials will continue to be available, although the governments concerned will seek to drive hard bargains in terms of prices and concessions.
Well, none of that is acceptable. "The first beneficiaries of the development of a country's resources" must be US investors, their counterparts elsewhere, and their local associates: they have a prior claim on the human and material resources of the service areas. The indigenous populations have the tendency to try to use "
our raw materials" for their own purposes. Now thats a "conspiracy" that has to be stopped!
N.S.C. 144/1 (http://www.49thparallel.bham.ac.uk/back/issue18/Sewell_IkeLatinAm.pdf) included the following objectives:
QuoteB. An orderly political and economic development in Latin America so that the states in the area will be more effective members of the hemisphere system and increasingly important participants in the economic and political affairs of the free world.
E. Adequate production in Latin America and access by the United States to, raw materials essential to U.S. security.
The economic section (http://books.google.com/books?id=mS7ZVKa6i3AC&pg=PA268&dq=Encourage+Latin+American+governments+to+recognize+that+the+bulk+of+the+capital+required+for+their+economic+development+can+best+be+supplied+by+private+enterprise+and+that+their+own+self+interest+requires+the+creation+of+a+climate+which+will+attract+private+investment.&hl=en&ei=H8MzTIe5B8SAlAeXzqm-Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Encourage%20Latin%20American%20governments%20to%20recognize%20that%20the%20bulk%20of%20the%20capital%20required%20for%20their%20economic%20development%20can%20best%20be%20supplied%20by%20private%20enterprise%20and%20that%20their%20own%20self%20interest%20requires%20the%20creation%20of%20a%20climate%20which%20will%20attract%20private%20investment.&f=false) of the document stated that the United States should seek economic development by:
QuoteEcouraging Latin American governments to recognize that the bulk of the capital required for their economic development can best be supplied by private enterprise and that their own self interest requires the creation of a climate which will attract private investment.
These principles are reiterated elsewhere, often verbatim (e.g., NSC 5613/1, Sept. 25, 1956). The Latin American countries must concentrate on export-oriented production in accord with the needs of US investors.
However, in the staff study (http://www.49thparallel.bham.ac.uk/back/issue18/Sewell_IkeLatinAm.pdf) that fed into the main document, US planners were clearly aware that the increasing US institutions and US economic system was increasing Latin American discontent:
QuoteThe people of Latin America are becoming increasingly aware that 90% of the wealth of the Western Hemisphere (less Canada) is produced by one of the American republics - the United States - while 10% is produced by the remaining 20 American states.
Such disparity was inevitably breeding resentment, and as a result: (http://www.49thparallel.bham.ac.uk/back/issue18/Sewell_IkeLatinAm.pdf)
Quotea doctrine labelled "nationalism" or "colonialism" has gained wide wide popular acceptance in the area.
This doctrine holds that the disparity is due to the exploitation of "colonial" states by a powerful "industrial" state.
Quote from: SM on Apr 12, 2011, 11:08:29 PM
Is any of this "news"?
Nope. Rather common knowledge.
News to the world -
America's not as bad as people think.
Was the 'It's often worse' comment directed at me?
Quote from: The PredBen on Apr 12, 2011, 11:49:25 PM
Was the 'It's often worse' comment directed at me?
Only if you're one of those people called "Americans".
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 12, 2011, 11:56:21 PM
Quote from: The PredBen on Apr 12, 2011, 11:49:25 PM
Was the 'It's often worse' comment directed at me?
Only if you're one of those people called "Americans".
Ah.
Yup.
Though one must never forget that the US government is voted in by less than half the population, so what the government does isn't automatically an assessment of every US citizen.
Quote from: SM on Apr 13, 2011, 12:01:30 AM
Yup.
Though one must never forget that the US government is voted in by less than half the population, so what the government does isn't automatically an assessment of every US citizen.
Excellent point. I am not happy with the current US government. I read on a school survey (perhaps someone can confirm or deny) that the majority of young voters ( 18 - 25) don't bother voting. IDK if that's better or worse, but my generation does a lot of b**tching, but then doesn't vote for change.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 12, 2011, 11:34:57 PM
Just answer the f**king question. Was Archbishop Romero of El Salvador a "Communist"? He was assassinated by one of Washington's death squads.
He was a Social Worker. Social Workers tend to get in situations that are not the best for their well-being. particularly in unstable countries.
but To the f**king point. you should have noticed that nobody here cares, or has any desire to get in Political Arguments, as at least so far we like to keep our opinions on sensitive subjects to ourselves. f**k, why would anyone even come to a site called "Alien vs Predator Galaxy" and say "gee, i'd like to discuss the CIA's involvement in South America during the Cold War"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5L1VdlktOw#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5L1VdlktOw#ws)
Unleashing the Death Squads
As the Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff General Maxwell Taylor (http://http://www.jstor.org/pss/20038070) warned in 1974:
QuoteAs the leading "have" power, we may expect to have to fight to protect our national valuables against envious "have nots."
To facilitate these goals, so this and later documents explain forthrightly, it is necessary for the US to control the Latin American military, which has the responsibility to overthrow civilian governments that do not conform to US requirements (called "the welfare of the nation"); the methods are examined in detail. It is also necessary to overcome the excessive liberalism of Latin American governments, to block "subversion" (that is, the wrong ideas), and in general to bar any challenge to US domination.
The US has no objection to democratic forms -- indeed, these are useful for the purposes of population control at home -- but only if conditions are established, by violence if necessary, to ensure that the threat of independent development, social reform and broad democratic participation has been overcome.
Closet Marxists in planning circles perceive that a class struggle is in process in Latin America, and that to win this struggle, the US may have to rely on force, since plainly it lacks political appeal among "the masses" with their unacceptable aspirations and susceptibility to what internal documents call "ultranationalism," meaning efforts to break out of the approved mold.
N.S.C. 144/1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=erAkfz6c9HoC&pg=PA11&dq=Secondly,+we+seek+hemisphere+solidarity+in+support+of+our+world+policy+and+the+cooperation+of+the+Latin+American+nations+in+safeguarding+the+hemisphere+through+individual+and+collective+defense+measures+against+external+aggression+and+internal+subversion&hl=en&ei=_BGrTZ-FHczAgQeAt9zzBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Secondly%2C%20we%20seek%20hemisphere%20solidarity%20in%20support%20of%20our%20world%20policy%20and%20the%20cooperation%20of%20the%20Latin%20American%20nations%20in%20safeguarding%20the%20hemisphere%20through%20individual%20and%20collective%20defense%20measures%20against%20external%20aggression%20and%20internal%20subversion&f=false) declares:
QuoteWe seek hemisphere solidarity in support of our world policy and the cooperation of the Latin American nations in safeguarding the hemisphere through individual and collective defense measures against external aggression and internal subversion.
N.S.C. 144/1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=lcusrRuAsRYC&pg=PA201&dq=the+reduction+and+elimination+of+internal+communist+or+other+ant-U.S.+subversion.&hl=en&ei=UK40TLOEM4Oclgff-qDTBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false) repeats the need for:
Quotethe reduction and elimination of internal communist or other ant-U.S. subversion.
The Memorandum (http://books.google.com/books?id=erAkfz6c9HoC&pg=PA11&dq=Secondly,+we+seek+hemisphere+solidarity+in+support+of+our+world+policy+and+the+cooperation+of+the+Latin+American+nations+in+safeguarding+the+hemisphere+through+individual+and+collective+defense+measures+against+external+aggression+and+internal+subversion&hl=en&ei=_BGrTZ-FHczAgQeAt9zzBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Secondly%2C%20we%20seek%20hemisphere%20solidarity%20in%20support%20of%20our%20world%20policy%20and%20the%20cooperation%20of%20the%20Latin%20American%20nations%20in%20safeguarding%20the%20hemisphere%20through%20individual%20and%20collective%20defense%20measures%20against%20external%20aggression%20and%20internal%20subversion&f=false) then declares the need to:
QuoteSeek ultimate military standardization, along US lines, of the organization, training, doctrine, and equipment of Latin American armed forces .
The latter is crucial, since to arrest the dangerous trend toward nationalism, accompanied by concern for the domestic population, it will be necessary to make use of the domestic military forces or the direct use of US force, the these domestic means of "encouragement" do not suffice.
Note the insistance on: (http://books.google.com/books?id=duQtAAAAYAAJ&q=encourage+through+consultation,+prudent+exchange+of+information,+and+other+available+means,+individual+and+collective+action+against+expansion+of+Soviet+bloc+influence+or+Communist+or+other+anti-U.S.+subversion+or+intervention+in+any+American+state.&dq=encourage+through+consultation,+prudent+exchange+of+information,+and+other+available+means,+individual+and+collective+action+against+expansion+of+Soviet+bloc+influence+or+Communist+or+other+anti-U.S.+subversion+or+intervention+in+any+American+state.&hl=en&ei=4q80TKeiL4O0lQfEqpzTBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA)
Quote[The United States will] encourage through consultation, prudent exchange of information, and other available means, individual and collective action against Communist or other anti-U.S. subversion or intervention in any American state.
N.S.C. 5432 (http://books.google.com/books?id=z9ctAAAAYAAJ&q=The+United+States+shall+provide+adequate+quotas+for+qualified+personnel+for+training+in+US+armed+forces+schools+and+training+centers.&dq=The+United+States+shall+provide+adequate+quotas+for+qualified+personnel+for+training+in+US+armed+forces+schools+and+training+centers.&hl=en&ei=5WQrTIGAGYT58AaalIHVCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ) then proceeds to outline the steps required to intigrate the Latin American military within the US system of hemispheric "encouragement":
QuoteFoster closer military relations with the Latin American armed forces in order to increase their understanding of, and orientation toward, US objectives and policies.
Notice that these moves to effectively intigrate the Latin American military within the US military command structure are directed against our historic enemies in Latin America: the indigenous population.
A study by Robert McNamara's Defense Department picks up these themes after these steps had been taken. A memorandum (http://books.google.com/books?id=JXlqAAAAMAAJ&q=In+the+Latin+American+cultural+environment+the+military+must+be+prepared+to+remove+government+leaders+from+office+whenever,+in+the+judgment+of+the+military,+the+conduct+of+those+leaders+is+injurious+to+the+welfare+of+the+nation.&dq=In+the+Latin+American+cultural+environment+the+military+must+be+prepared+to+remove+government+leaders+from+office+whenever,+in+the+judgment+of+the+military,+the+conduct+of+those+leaders+is+injurious+to+the+welfare+of+the+nation.&hl=en&ei=ILE0TLqPB4aBlAfU2unUBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBA), entitled "Study of US Policy Toward Latin American Military Forces" (June 11, 1965) observes that:
QuoteUS policies toward the Latin American military have, on the whole, been effective in attaining the goals set for them by establishing predominant US military influence and improving internal security capabilities.
In the Latin American cultural environment the military must be prepared to remove government leaders from office whenever, in the judgment of the military, the conduct of those leaders is injurious to the welfare of the nation.
Maxwell Taylor (http://books.google.com/books?id=9H1jAAAAMAAJ&q=Since+the+late+1950%27s+the+principal+instrument+used+by+the+United+States+to+maintain+stability+in+its+Third+World+domains+is+the+Military+Assistance+Program,+which+is+designed+to+improve+the+counterinsurgency+capabilities+of+the+local+armed+forces.+In+dealing+with+urban+discontent+and+political+unrest,+however,+the+military+has+proved+less+than+effective.+The+outstanding+lesson+of+the+Indochina+conflict+is+that+we+should+never+let+another+Vietnam-type+situation+arise+again.+We+were+too+late+in+recognizing+the+extent+of+the+subversive+threat.+We+appreciate+now+that+every+young,+emerging+country+must+be+constantly+on+the+alert,+watching+for+those+symptoms+which,+if+allowed+to+develop+unrestrained,+may+eventually+grow+into+a+disastrous+situation+such+as+that+in+South+Vietnam.+We+have+learned+the+need+for+a+strong+police+force+and+a+strong+police+intelligence+organization+to+assist+in+identifying+early+the+symptoms+of+an+incipient+subversive+situation.&dq=Since+the+late+1950%27s+the+principal+instrument+used+by+the+United+States+to+maintain+stability+in+its+Third+World+domains+is+the+Military+Assistance+Program,+which+is+designed+to+improve+the+counterinsurgency+capabilities+of+the+local+armed+forces.+In+dealing+with+urban+discontent+and+political+unrest,+however,+the+military+has+proved+less+than+effective.+The+outstanding+lesson+of+the+Indochina+conflict+is+that+we+should+never+let+another+Vietnam-type+situation+arise+again.+We+were+too+late+in+recognizing+the+extent+of+the+subversive+threat.+We+appreciate+now+that+every+young,+emerging+country+must+be+constantly+on+the+alert,+watching+for+those+symptoms+which,+if+allowed+to+develop+unrestrained,+may+eventually+grow+into+a+disastrous+situation+such+as+that+in+South+Vietnam.+We+have+learned+the+need+for+a+strong+police+force+and+a+strong+police+intelligence+organization+to+assist+in+identifying+early+the+symptoms+of+an+incipient+subversive+situation.&hl=en&ei=TUhcTOnKAYP78Ab76KD2Ag&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA) told Third World police graduates [Death Squads] of USAID's International Police Academy in Washington that:
QuoteSince the late 1950's the principal instrument used by the United States to maintain stability in its Third World domains is the Military Assistance Program, which is designed to improve the counterinsurgency capabilities of the local armed forces. In dealing with urban discontent and political unrest, however, the military has proved less than effective.
The outstanding lesson of the Indochina conflict is that we should never let another Vietnam-type situation arise again. We were too late in recognizing the extent of the subversive threat. We appreciate now that every young, emerging country must be constantly on the alert, watching for those symptoms which, if allowed to develop unrestrained, may eventually grow into a disastrous situation such as that in South Vietnam.
We have learned the need for a strong police force and a strong police intelligence organization to assist in identifying early the symptoms of an incipient subversive situation.
The US AID Public Safety Program was designed to maintain a world system subordinated to the needs of the US economy, or more accurately, its proprietors.
The US AID police assistance program (Third World Death Squads) is designed to encompass all these functions; according to the Office of Public Safety (OPS): (http://books.google.com/books?id=NItBAAAAIAAJ&q=Individual+Public+Safety+programs,+while+varying+from+country+to+country,+are+focused+in+general+on+developing+within+the+civil+security+forces+a+balance+of+(1)+a+capability+for+regular+police+operations,+with+(2)+an+investigative+capability+for+detecting+criminal+and/or+subversive+individuals+and+organizations+and+neutralizing+their+activities.+This+requires+a+carefully+integrated+effort+between+the+investigative+element+and+the+regular+police,+paramilitary+or+military+force,+operating+separately+or+in+conjuction+with+each+other.+Communism+is+the+chief+obstacle+to+economic+development+in+the+Central+American+region.&dq=Individual+Public+Safety+programs,+while+varying+from+country+to+country,+are+focused+in+general+on+developing+within+the+civil+security+forces+a+balance+of+(1)+a+capability+for+regular+police+operations,+with+(2)+an+investigative+capability+for+detecting+criminal+and/or+subversive+individuals+and+organizations+and+neutralizing+their+activities.+This+requires+a+carefully+integrated+effort+between+the+investigative+element+and+the+regular+police,+paramilitary+or+military+force,+operating+separately+or+in+conjuction+with+each+other.+Communism+is+the+chief+obstacle+to+economic+development+in+the+Central+American+region.&hl=en&ei=UUVcTK3cI8L68AaRzKyHAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ)
QuoteThe U.S. military apparatus
Individual Public Safety programs, while varying from country to country, are focused in general on developing within the civil security forces a balance of (1) a capability for regular police operations, with (2) an investigative capability for detecting criminal and/or subversive individuals and organizations and neutralizing their activities.
This requires a carefully integrated effort between the investigative element and the regular police, paramilitary or military force, operating separately or in conjuction with each other.
Furthermore, N.S.C. 144/1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=mS7ZVKa6i3AC&pg=PA268&dq=The+United+States+should+refrain+from+overt+unilateral+intervention+in+the+internal+political+affairs+of+the+other+American+states.+Should+the+inter-American+system+fail+to+protect+vital+United+states+national+interests+in+this+hemisphere,+it+is+recognized+that+unilateral+action+by+the+united+states+may+be+necessary&cd=1#v=onepage&q=The%20United%20States%20should%20refrain%20from%20overt%20unilateral%20intervention%20in%20the%20internal%20political%20affairs%20of%20the%20other%20American%20states.%20Should%20the%20inter-American%20system%20fail%20to%20protect%20vital%20United%20states%20national%20interests%20in%20this%20hemisphere%2C%20it%20is%20recognized%20that%20unilateral%20action%20by%20the%20united%20states%20may%20be%20necessary&f=false) included a sentence that is still routinely deleted from the public record:
QuoteShould the inter-American system fail to protect vital United States national interests in this hemisphere, it is recognized that unilateral action by the United States may be necessary.
With US control firmly established, and the Latin American military having mastered the "understanding of, and orientation toward, US objectives and policies," we can be assured that "the judgment of the military" will reflect the preferences of Big Brother as they pursue their "primary role", gauranteeing that "democracy" will function within the limits established by the Ruler of the Hemisphere.
In 1962, Kennedy liberals shifted the mission from "hemispheric defense" to "internal security" by assassination, torture, disappearance, and sometimes mass murder, which constituted one of the two major legacies of the Kennedy Administration to Latin America.
Charles Maechling (http://books.google.com/books?ei=LpwvTJ_NIMWqlAf7scSQCQ&ct=result&id=HOgkAQAAIAAJ&dq=Charles+Maechling+direct+complicity+the+methods+of+Heinrich+Himmler%27s+extermination+squads&q=Charles+Maechling%2C+who+led+counter-insurgency+and+internal+defense+planning+from+1961+to+1966%2C+described+the+1962+decision+as+%27a+shift+from+toleration+of+rapacity+and+cruelty+of+the+Latin+American+military+to+direct+complicity+in+their+crimes%2C+to+US+support+for+the+methods+of+Heinrich+Himmler%27s+extermination+squads.%27), who led counter-insurgency and internal defense planning from 1961 to 1966, described the 1962 decision as:
Quotea shift from toleration of rapacity and cruelty of the Latin American military to direct complicity in their crimes, to US support for the methods of Heinrich Himmler's extermination squads.
Ideas of this nature have been implemented since World War II in order to maintain a world system subordinated to the needs of the US economy, or more accurately, its proprietors. It is hardly surprising that elite groups that dominate US political life should formulate and implement such global programs, just as it is natural that all of this should be suppressed in a well-functioning ideological system.
Crucially, evolving policy conforms generally to the directives outlined in internal documents. In particular, there is a good correlation between US aid and the investment climate in Third World countries; and given the means required to safeguard the basic policy principles, we find that as a corollary, US aid correlates with human rights violations.
In Latin America, the leading academic specialist on the topic, Lars Schoultz (http://www.jstor.org/pss/421620), concluded from a revealing study that:
QuoteUS aid has tended to flow disproportionately to the hemisphere's relatively egregious violators of fundamental human rights, to governments which torture their citizens. Other studies have shown the same, and the reasons are not hard to discern.
Now this apparatus of repression and murder and death squads and torture, that was an essential component of John F. Kennedy's "Alliance for Progress." It ended up being what a commission headed by Sol Linowitz (http://"http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,947814,00.html") called:
Quotea plague of repression without parallel in the history of the continent.
The Alliance for Progress, which is much lauded here as another exhibition of our benevolence, was a totally cynical operation. It did favor a certain kind of economic development, geared to export crops for the benefit of U.S.-based agribusiness and fertilizer and pesticide companies:
QuoteThe Alliance for Progress (http://books.google.com/books?id=h2w4AAAAIAAJ&q=programs+are+increasingly+designed+to+help+other+countries+utilize+the+energies+of+their+own+private+sector+and+to+promote+participation+by+American+private+enterprise+in+the+agri-businessses+essential+to+the+developing+nations.&dq=programs+are+increasingly+designed+to+help+other+countries+utilize+the+energies+of+their+own+private+sector+and+to+promote+participation+by+American+private+enterprise+in+the+agri-businessses+essential+to+the+developing+nations.&hl=en&ei=eSmrTcfUC8fDgQf1l8jzBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA)
US aid programs are increasingly designed to help other countries utilize the energies of their own private sector and to promote participation by American private enterprise in the agri-businessses essential to the developing nations.
During that period there was statistical growth. So, for example, in all of the Central American countries under the Alliance for Progress and as a result of its programs, beef production increased. But, at the same time, in every single one of these countries, beef consumption decreased. The reason was that croplands that had been used for subsistence crops for the population was being eliminated in favor of grazing lands for wealthy ranchers tied to American agribusiness who were producing beef for export. In fact, throughout this period while there was statistical growth, there was also increased misery and increased starvation.
Now that kind of economic development carries a corollary. That kind of economic development does inevitably arouse dissidents and that requires an apparatus of repression to still it. In this precise and clear respect the death squads, for which the basic structures were established by the Kennedy Administration, are part and parcel of the Alliance for Progress and an essential component of it. In fact, the death squads are the only lasting element of that system apart from the enrichment of U.S. agribusiness
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 13, 2011, 12:11:29 AM
Quote from: SM on Apr 13, 2011, 12:01:30 AM
Yup.
Though one must never forget that the US government is voted in by less than half the population, so what the government does isn't automatically an assessment of every US citizen.
It's not the fault of Americans. They can only choose between two parties and it doesnt matter which candidate wins. Both will continue helping to maintain the system as it is whithout "change." Im talking about the leadership, not junior Senator from wherever. There are good people in Congress but they dont have the power to change anything. These are the politicians either ignored or ridiculed by the corporate media. You rarely see them commenting on issues on CNN, NBC, CBS, so on and so forth.
Interesting post. I personally condemn the two party system. I always felt that it limited people's options.
Quote
It's not the fault of Americans. They can only choose between two parties and it doesnt matter which candidate wins. Both will continue helping to maintain the system as it is whithout "change." Im talking about the leadership, not the junior Senator from wherever. There are good people in Congress but they dont have the power to change anything. These are the politicians either ignored or ridiculed by the corporate media. You rarely see them commenting on issues on CNN, NBC, CBS, so on and so forth.
That's all very well, but as Chupa pointed out - no one here on this forum gives a shit.
I daresay you will continue to be ridiculed and the thread locked before you come even close to finishing your excessive use of the CTRL-C, CTRL-V.
Quote from: SM on Apr 13, 2011, 12:15:18 AM
Quote
It's not the fault of Americans. They can only choose between two parties and it doesnt matter which candidate wins. Both will continue helping to maintain the system as it is whithout "change." Im talking about the leadership, not the junior Senator from wherever. There are good people in Congress but they dont have the power to change anything. These are the politicians either ignored or ridiculed by the corporate media. You rarely see them commenting on issues on CNN, NBC, CBS, so on and so forth.
That's all very well, but as Chupa pointed out - no one here on this forum gives a shit.
I daresay you will continue to be ridiculed and the thread locked before you come even close to finishing your excessive use of the CTRL-C, CTRL-V.
To this poster's credit - where could he/she post this - there aren't a lot of political forums with a high number of members. Or are there?
oh, they are. so many you wouldn't believe.
and America is just to big to be united. it's not a country which can agree on anything but TV shows.
Quote from: chupacabras acheronsis on Apr 13, 2011, 12:19:05 AM
oh, they are. so many you wouldn't believe.
and America is just to big to be united. it's not a country which can agree on anything but TV shows.
Could you please tell me one of their names? I've been interested in politics lately but can't discuss it anywhere. If you know the name of one.
And I agree with what you said. Sometimes I wonder if the US should be 'divided' into countries and maintain an alliance (like the EU)
Pretty much any 'general' forum will have a small room full of smart asses thinking they are hot shit because they watch newschannels all day and read history books that don't talk about history.
Ah I wouldn't be surprised.
The "Rotten Apple Theory" or "Domino Theory"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANi1ZRl8P9g# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANi1ZRl8P9g#)
So why are little countries with miniscule resources so significant? No country is exempt from U.S. intervention, no matter how unimportant. In fact, it's the weakest, poorest countries that often arouse the greatest hysteria.
Take Laos in the 1960s, probably the poorest country in the world. Most of the people who lived there didn't even know there was such a thing as Laos; they just knew they had a little village and there was another little village nearby.
But as soon as a very low-level social revolution began to develop there, Washington subjected Laos to a murderous "secret bombing," virtually wiping out large settled areas in operations that, it was conceded, had nothing to do with the war the US was waging in South Vietnam.
Grenada has a hundred thousand people who produce a little nutmeg, and you could hardly find it on a map. But when Grenada began to undergo a mild social revolution, Washington quickly moved to destroy the threat.
From the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 till the collapse of the Communist governments in Eastern Europe in the late 1980s, it was possible to justify every US attack as a defense against the Soviet threat. So when the United States invaded Grenada in 1983, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff explained that, in the event of a Soviet attack on Western Europe, a hostile Grenada could interdict oil supplies from the Caribbean to Western Europe and we wouldn't be able to defend our beleaguered allies. Now this sounds comical, but that kind of story helps mobilize public support for aggression, terror and subversion.
The attack against Nicaragua was justified by the claim that if we don't stop "them" there, they'll be pouring across the border at Harlingen, Texas-just two days' drive away. (For educated people, there were more sophisticated variants, just about as plausible.)
As far as American business is concerned, Nicaragua could disappear and nobody would notice. The same is true of El Salvador. But both have been subjected to murderous assaults by the US, at a cost of hundreds of thousands of lives and many billions of dollars.
There's a reason for that. The weaker and poorer a country is, the more dangerous it is as an example. If a tiny, poor country like Grenada can succeed in bringing about a better life for its people, some other place that has more resources will ask, "why not us?"
This was even true in Indochina, which is pretty big and has some significant resources. Although Eisenhower and his advisers ranted a lot about the rice and tin and rubber, the real fear was that if the people of Indochina achieved independence and justice, the people of Thailand would emulate it, and if that worked, they'd try it in Malaya, and pretty soon Indonesia would pursue an independent path, and by then a significant area of "the Grand Area" would have been lost.
If you want a global system that's subordinated to the needs of US investors, you can't let pieces of it wander off. It's striking how clearly this is stated in the documentary record-even in the public record at times. Take Chile under Allende.
Chile is a fairly big place, with a lot of natural resources, but again, the United States wasn't going to collapse if Chile became independent. Why were we so concerned about it?
US planners from Secretary of State Dean Acheson (http://books.google.com/books?id=OirSz3Wtaa0C&pg=PA219&dq=Like+apples+in+a+barrel+infected+by+one+rotten+one,+the+corruption+of+Greece+would+infect+Iran+and+all+to+the+east.+It+would+also+carry+infection+to+Africa+through+Asia+Minor+and+Egypt,+and+to+Europe+through+Italy+and+France,&hl=en&ei=V7lmTPTDEMT58AbgjtHaBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCQQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=Like%20apples%20in%20a%20barrel%20infected%20by%20one%20rotten%20one%2C%20the%20corruption%20of%20Greece%20would%20infect%20Iran%20and%20all%20to%20the%20east.%20It%20would%20also%20carry%20infection%20to%20Africa%20through%20Asia%20Minor%20and%20Egypt%2C%20and%20to%20Europe%20through%20Italy%20and%20France%2C&f=false) in the late 1940s to the present have warned that "one rotten apple can spoil the barrel:"
QuoteLike apples in a barrel infected by one rotten one, the corruption of Greece would infect Iran and all to the east. It would also carry infection to Africa through Asia Minor and Egypt .
George Kennan (way at the dovish extreme) was head of the State Department Policy Planning Staff. In December 1948, Kennan warned about the threat of successful independant development in Indonesia. And, in an early explication of a version of the "domino theory", Kennan asserted that: (http://"http://books.google.com/books?id=pIIeG_yn72wC&pg=PA260&dq=%22it+would+only+be+a+matter+of+time+before+the+infection+would+sweep+westward+through+the+continent+to+Burma,+India,+and+Pakistan.&hl=en&ei=5G5hTJaiOcG78gb8kYWNCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22it%20would%20only%20be%20a%20matter%20of%20time%20before%20the%20infection%20would%20sweep%20westward%20through%20the%20continent%20to%20Burma%2C%20India%2C%20and%20Pakistan.&f=false")
Quoteit would only be a matter of time before the infection would sweep westward through the continent to Burma, India, and Pakistan.
In one especially revealing remark, President Johnson (http://books.google.com/books?id=paQvAAAAMAAJ&q=President+Johnson:+There+are+3+billion+people+in+the+world+and+we+only+have+200+million+of+them.+We+are+outnumbered+15+to+1.+If+might+did+make+right,+they+would+sweep+over+the+United+States+and+take+what+we+have.+We+have+what+they+want.&dq=President+Johnson:+There+are+3+billion+people+in+the+world+and+we+only+have+200+million+of+them.+We+are+outnumbered+15+to+1.+If+might+did+make+right,+they+would+sweep+over+the+United+States+and+take+what+we+have.+We+have+what+they+want.&hl=en&ei=8jOwTYzkF5PrgQe0mIj0Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwADgK) warned that:
QuoteThere are 3 billion people in the world and we have only 200 million of them. We are outnumbered 15 to 1. If might did make right they would sweep over the United States and take what we have. We have what they want. We are showing right now it can't be done in Viet Nam.
Johnson was basically invoking the "domino theory" or "rotton apple theory." The real enemy of the United States has always been independant nationalism, particularly when it threatens to become a "contagious example," to borrow Henry Kissinger's characterization of democratic socialism in Chile, a virus that, he feared, might infect other countries as far away as southern Europe. — cured of the infection on 9/11 1973 ("the other 9/11").
If a country with miniscule resources were to carry out successful independant development it would have a demonstration effect. The weaker and poorer a country is, the more there is a "threat of a good example." If a tiny, poor country can succeed in bringing about a better life for its people, some other place with vast resources will ask, "why not us?" That's dangerous. The whole system of domination would collapse.
The danger is that the "rot"-social and economic development-may spread "infection" to countries of real concern to the rulers of much of the world. The indigenous populations have the tendency to try to use "our raw materials" for their own purposes. Now thats a "conspiracy" that has to be stopped!
The "rotten apple theory" is called the "domino theory" for public consumption. The version used to frighten the public has Ho Chi Minh getting in a canoe and landing in California, and so on. Maybe some US leaders believe this nonsense- it's possible-but rational planners certainly don't. They understand that the real threat is the "good example."
Sometimes the point is explained with great clarity. When the US was planning to overthrow Guatemalan democracy in 1954, a State Department official (http://books.google.com/books?id=mS7ZVKa6i3AC&pg=PA365&dq=Guatemala+has+become+an+increasing+threat+to+the+stability+of+Honduras+and+El+Salvador.+Its+agrarian+reform+is+a+powerful+propaganda+weapon:+its+broad+social+program+of+aiding+the+workers+and+peasants+in+a+victorious+struggle+against+the+upper+classes+and+large+foreign+enterprises+has+a+strong+appeal+to+the+populations+of+Central+American+neighbors+where+similar+conditions+prevail.&hl=en&ei=PAQ1TLj4FYP88Abv89ykAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEQQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=Guatemala%20has%20become%20an%20increasing%20threat%20to%20the%20stability%20of%20Honduras%20and%20El%20Salvador.%20Its%20agrarian%20reform%20is%20a%20powerful%20propaganda%20weapon%3A%20its%20broad%20social%20program%20of%20aiding%20the%20workers%20and%20peasants%20in%20a%20victorious%20struggle%20against%20the%20upper%20classes%20and%20large%20foreign%20enterprises%20has%20a%20strong%20appeal%20to%20the%20populations%20of%20Central%20American%20neighbors%20where%20similar%20conditions%20prevail.&f=false) pointed out that:
QuoteGuatemala has become an increasing threat to the stability of Honduras and El Salvador. Its agrarian reform is a powerful propaganda weapon: its broad social program of aiding the workers and peasants in a victorious struggle against the upper classes and large foreign enterprises has a strong appeal to the populations of Central American neighbors where similar conditions prevail.
In other words, what the US wants is "stability," meaning security for the "upper classes and large foreign enterprises." If that can be achieved with formal democratic devices, OK. If not, the "threat to stability" posed by a good example has to be destroyed before the virus infects others.
That's why even the tiniest speck poses such a threat, and may have to be crushed.
The "Mafia Principle"
International affairs have more than a slight resemblance to the Mafia: The Godfather does not tolerate "successful defiance," even from a small storekeeper who fails to pay protection money. It is too dangerous. The weaker the country the greater the threat because people who can free themselves against all the odds are sure to inspire others. It must therefore be stamped out, and brutally, so that others understand that disobedience is not an option.
So for example. Arthur Schlesinger had transmitted to the incoming President Kennedy his Latin American Mission report, which warned of the susceptibility of Latin Americans to:
Quotethe spead of the Castro idea of taking matters into one's own hands.
The dangers of the "Castro idea" are particularly grave, Schlesinger later elaborated, when:
Quotethe distribution of land and other forms of national wealth greatly favors the propertied classes and the poor and underprivileged, stimulated by the example of the Cuban revolution, are now demanding opportunities for a decent living.
In early 1964, the State Department Policy Planning Council (http://books.google.com/books?id=m9JxAAAAMAAJ&q=The+primary+danger+we+face+in+Castro+is+in+the+impact+the+very+existence+of+his+regime+has+upon+the+leftist+movement+in+many+Latin+American+countries.++The+simple+fact+is+that+Castro+represents+a+successful+defiance+of+the+US,+a+negation+of+our+whole+hemispheric+policy+of+almost+a+century+and+a+half.+Cuba,+as+symbol+and+reality,+challenged+U.S.+hegemony+in+Latin+America.&dq=The+primary+danger+we+face+in+Castro+is+in+the+impact+the+very+existence+of+his+regime+has+upon+the+leftist+movement+in+many+Latin+American+countries.++The+simple+fact+is+that+Castro+represents+a+successful+defiance+of+the+US,+a+negation+of+our+whole+hemispheric+policy+of+almost+a+century+and+a+half.+Cuba,+as+symbol+and+reality,+challenged+U.S.+hegemony+in+Latin+America.&hl=en&ei=Pec1TPiCO4GKlwfMrIXVBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBA) expanded on these concerns:
QuoteThe primary danger we face in Castro is in the impact the very existence of his regime has upon the leftist movement in many Latin American countries. The simple fact is that Castro represents a successful defiance of the US, a negation of our whole hemispheric policy of almost a century and a half. Cuba, as symbol and reality, challenged U.S. hegemony in Latin America.
Successful defiance of the Master could be a "virus" that will "spread contagion," to borrow Kissinger's term when he was preparing the overthrow of the Allende government. That has been a leading doctrine of foreign policy for the US during the period of its global dominance, and of course has many predecessors. US policy towards Iran since 1979 is another current illustration, which I do not have time to review here.
It took time to realize the objectives laid out in the Monroe Doctrine, and they still face many impediments, but the goal is enduring and unchallenged. It took on even greater significance as the US became the dominant global power after World War II, displacing its British rival.
The reasoning has been lucidly explained. For example, when Washington was preparing to overthrow the Allende government, the National Security Council (http://books.google.com/books?id=Hxpk13MHYd4C&q=If+we+cannot+maintain+a+constructive+relationship+in+the+Western+Hemisphere,+we+will+hardly+be+able+to+achieve+a+successful+order+elsewhere+in+the+world.+Moreover,+failure+to+maintain+the+special+relationship+would+create+a+vacuum+in+the+hemisphere+.&dq=If+we+cannot+maintain+a+constructive+relationship+in+the+Western+Hemisphere,+we+will+hardly+be+able+to+achieve+a+successful+order+elsewhere+in+the+world.+Moreover,+failure+to+maintain+the+special+relationship+would+create+a+vacuum+in+the+hemisphere+.&hl=en&ei=_b2sTZu6GcON0QHOpOS0Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBw) observed that:
QuoteIf the United States cannot maintain a constructive relationship in the Western Hemisphere, we will hardly be able to achieve a successful order elsewhere in the world.
That is, to impose its rule effectively over the world. Washington's "credibility" would be undermined, as Henry Kissinger (http://books.google.com/books?id=UmTuAAAAMAAJ&q=Kissinger:+If+we+cannot+manage+Central+America,+it+will+be+impossible+to+convince+threatened+nations+in+the+Persian+Gulf+and+in+other+places+we+know+how+to+manage+the+Global+Equilibrium.&dq=Kissinger:+If+we+cannot+manage+Central+America,+it+will+be+impossible+to+convince+threatened+nations+in+the+Persian+Gulf+and+in+other+places+we+know+how+to+manage+the+Global+Equilibrium.&hl=en&ei=_OI1TI6_AoeglAeZw8nVBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCgQ6AEwATgK) put it:
QuoteIf we cannot manage Central America, it will be impossible to convince threatened nations in the Persian Gulf and in other places that we know how to manage the Global Equilibrium.
The latter phrase is a euphemism for our rule of the globe. In other words, we may not frighten them enough to accept our orders unless at least we can manage Central America, right near by.
Others too might turn to "successful defiance" if the Chilean "virus" was not destroyed before it could "spread contagion."
Yeah good luck with that.
QuoteWhy would people give a shit about the other political thread but not this one?
Anyone who might care, already knew all this, and anyone who didn't is going to go tl;dr.
In fact the people who care will probably do that too.
I suppose I did request this, though I was under the impression it would be more directly pertaining to the conversation in the 2012 election thread, with specific reference to the remark you made to maledoro.
The "Unipolar Moment"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_drFPB4XKJE#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_drFPB4XKJE#ws)
With just that much background, let us turn to the "unipolar moment," which has been the topic of a great deal of scholarly and popular discussion since the collapse of the Soviet Union 20 years ago, leaving the US as the sole global superpower instead of merely the primary superpower as before. We learn a lot about the nature of the Cold War, and about events unfolding since, by looking at how Washington reacted to the disappearance of its global enemy, the "monolithic and ruthless conspiracy" to take over the world, as John F. Kennedy described it.
A few weeks after the fall of the Berlin wall, the US invaded Panama. The purpose was to kidnap a minor thug who was brought to Florida and sentenced for crimes that he had committed, for the most part, while on the CIA payroll. He had switched from valued friend to evil demon by attempting some successful defiance, dragging his feet on supporting Reagan's terrorist wars in Nicaragua. The invasion killed several thousand poor people in Panama, according to Panamanian sources, and reinstated the rule of US-linked bankers and narcotraffickers. It was hardly more than a footnote to history, but it did break the pattern in some respects. One was that a new pretext was needed, and it was quickly supplied: the threat of Hispanic narcotraffickers seeking to destroy the United States. The "drug war" had been declared by Richard Nixon, but took on a new and significant role during the unipolar moment.
The need for a new pretext also guided the official reaction in Washington to the collapse of the superpower enemy. Within months, the Bush senior administration outlined Washington's new course (http://osdhistory.defense.gov/docs/nss1990.pdf): in brief, everything will stay much the same, but with new pretexts. We still need a huge military system, but for a new reason:
QuoteIn a new era, we foresee that our military power will remain an essential underpinning of the global balance, but less prominently and in different ways. We see that the more likely demands for the use of our military forces may not involve the Soviet Union and may be in the Third World, where new capabilities and approaches may be required. With the goal of contributing to an international environment of peace, freedom and progress within which our democracy -- and other free nations -- can flourish.
The growing technological sophistication of Third World conflicts will place serious demands on our forces and may continue to threaten U.S. interests even without the backdrop of superpower competition. In the future, we expect that non-Soviet threats to these interests will command even greater attention. We must have the means to reinforce our units forward deployed or to project power into areas where we have no permanent precense. This is necessary in Middle East because of the free world's reliance on energy supplies from this pivital region.
We have to maintain the "defense industrial base" -- a euphemism for state-supported high-tech industry. We must maintain intervention forces directed at the Middle East energy-rich regions -- where the significant threats to our interests "could not be laid at the Kremlin's door," contrary to decades of deceit. All of this was passed over quietly, barely even reported. But for those who hope to understand the world, it is quite instructive.
In reality, the "threat to our interests" had always been indigenous nationalism. Military commanders echoed the political echelon, emphasizing that the end of the Cold War would not change security policy significantly:
QuoteIn fact, the majority of the crises we have responded to since the end of World War II have not directly involved the Soviet Union.
Marine General A.M. Gray (http://books.google.com/books?id=IckfAAAAMAAJ&q=The+underdeveloped+world's+growing+dissatisfaction+over+the+gap+between+rich+and+poor+nations+will+create+a+fertile+breeding+ground+for+insurgencies.+These+insurgencies+have+the+potential+to+jeopardize+regional+stability+and+our+access+to+vital+economic+and+military+resources.+This+situation+will+become+critical+as+our+Nation+and+allies+and+potential+adversaries+become+more+and+more+dependent+on+these+strategic+resources.+Our+superpower+political+and+military+status+is+dependent+'+upon+our+ability+to+maintain+the+economic+base+derived+from+our+ability+to+compete+in+established+and+developing+economic+markets+throughout+the+world.+If+we+are+to+maintain+this+status,+we+must+have+unimpeded+access+to+these+markets+and+to+the+resources+needed+to+support+our+manufacturing+requirements.&dq=The+underdeveloped+world's+growing+dissatisfaction+over+the+gap+between+rich+and+poor+nations+will+create+a+fertile+breeding+ground+for+insurgencies.+These+insurgencies+have+the+potential+to+jeopardize+regional+stability+and+our+access+to+vital+economic+and+military+resources.+This+situation+will+become+critical+as+our+Nation+and+allies+and+potential+adversaries+become+more+and+more+dependent+on+these+strategic+resources.+Our+superpower+political+and+military+status+is+dependent+'+upon+our+ability+to+maintain+the+economic+base+derived+from+our+ability+to+compete+in+established+and+developing+economic+markets+throughout+the+world.+If+we+are+to+maintain+this+status,+we+must+have+unimpeded+access+to+these+markets+and+to+the+resources+needed+to+support+our+manufacturing+requirements.&lr=&cd=10) observed, quite accuratley, in May 1990. The problems remain, as before:
QuoteThe underdeveloped world's growing dissatisfaction over the gap between rich and poor nations will create a fertile breeding ground for insurgencies. These insurgencies have the potential to jeopardize regional stability and our access to vital economic and military resources. This situation will become critical as our Nation and allies and potential adversaries become more and more dependent on these strategic resources.
If we are to have stability in these regions, maintain access to their resources, we must maintain within our active force structure a credible military power projection capability with the flexibility to respond to conflict across the spectrum of violence throughout the globe.
Our superpower political and military status is dependent ' upon our ability to maintain the economic base derived from our ability to compete in established and developing economic markets throughout the world. If we are to maintain this status, we must have unimpeded access to these markets and to the resources needed to support our manufacturing requirements.
Crucially, we must maintain our "unimpeded access" to "developing economic markets throughout the world" and "to the resources needed to support our manufacturing requirements." We therefore need "a credible forcible entry capability," forces that "must truly be expeditionary" and capable of executing a wide variety of missions from counterinsurgency and psychological warfare to the deployment of "multidivision forces."
We must also bear in mind the rapidly increasing technological advances in weaponry and their availability to the new regional powers that will be springing up throughout the Third World, so that we must develop military capacities exploiting the far reaches of electronics, genetic engineering and other biotechnologies, and so on, "if our Nation is to maintain military credibility in the next century."
The only things one could get out of this thread as far as exposing any hidden agendas are the free publicity for Stockwell and his book and the attention for Horhey.
As the other users on this thread pointed out, there was nothing earthshaking about it, and it was full of circular reasoning as there was nothing to support Stockwell's claims other than Amazon's description of the book. Anybody can make a YouTube video, post a "memo" on a dubious website, write a book, and have a book retailer promote it.
The "New Vision" of the "Gatekeeper" of so called Global "Free Markets"
At the end of September 1993, the Clinton Administration finally addressed "the vision thing" in the domain of foreign policy, with major addresses by the President and Secretary of State, and of particular significance, by National Security Adviser Anthony Lake, who laid forth the intellectual foundations of the new Clinton doctrine at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies.
A new National Export Strategy was announced that set guidelines for international economic policy, and a White House panel on intervention applied the doctrine in this particular sphere, all within a few days. The seriousness of the enterprise was duly recorded with such headlines as "U.S. Vision of Foreign Policy Reversed" (Thomas Friedman, New York Times) (http://www.nytimes.com/1993/09/22/world/us-vision-of-foreign-policy-reversed.html), implying a dramatic policy change.
The new vision is based on a picture of the contemporary world that has risen well beyond opinion, to the heights of truism. The picture is sketched eloquently by the Times chief diplomatic correspondent, Thomas Friedman:
QuoteAmerica's victory in the cold war was a victory for a set of political and economic principles: democracy and the free market. At last, the world is coming to understand that the free market is the wave of the future -- a future for which America is both the gatekeeper and the model.
The term "gatekeeper" has an ominous ring. The whole affair merits some thoughts about how we keep the gates, who we let in, and what kind of model we are to offer to the world. We begin with Anthony Lake's address, recognized to be the centerpiece of the new vision.
1. "From Containment to Enlargement"
A long-time liberal dove, Clinton's National Security Adviser Anthony Lake (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:jUn7tpGIPQUJ:www.disam.dsca.mil/pubs/Vol%252016_2/Lake.pdf+From+Containment+to+Enlargement.+Anthony+Lake+Throughout+the+cold+war,+we+contained+a+global+threat+to+market+democracies:+now+we+should+seek+to+enlarge+their+reach.+enlargement+--+enlargement+of+the+world's+free+community+of+market+democracies.&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShCoaOGl5ppBphqoc3l87MTcSRSPTAHrZCXmPpQnuguFubHaSXtTTR-m155E-sTLgJZnvd02kNkaoHn_GiSC6qm3sBWRq9-Wy9GOHhPNm1A1nvlilKXdiOS1-MIRFWOrZ6afkmX&sig=AHIEtbTWee5roiKI4qCTByMCRA0MdPwGeQ) explained that:
QuoteThroughout the cold war, we contained a global threat to market democracies: now we should seek to enlarge their reach, particularly in places of special significance to us.
The successor to a doctrine of containment must be a strategy of enlargement -- enlargement of the world's free community of market democracies.
That is the new vision that replaces the defensive stance of the past half century. To evaluate the announcement of the new vision, we turn to US behavior in regions where its influence is reached. There are many choices, the US being a global power. But the most illuminating will surely be the Western Hemisphere, where the US has long run the show virtually without interference, so its deepest values and convictions are revealed with great clarity.
There is no need to review further how we have "contained a global threat to market democracy" in "our little region over here," as FDR's Secretary of War, Henry Stimson, described the Western hemisphere. It is enough to recall a warning issued by Simon Bolivar (http://books.google.com/books?id=ynmUU7_Tv4YC&pg=PR11&dq=There+is+at+the+head+of+this+great+continent+a+very+powerful+country,+very+rich,+very+warlike,+and+capable+of+anything.+The+United+States+seems+destined+to+plague+and+torment+the+continent+in+the+name+of+freedom.&hl=en&ei=gGE2TLuBGIL-8AbG35zwAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=There%20is%20at%20the%20head%20of%20this%20great%20continent%20a%20very%20powerful%20country%2C%20very%20rich%2C%20very%20warlike%2C%20and%20capable%20of%20anything.%20The%20United%20States%20seems%20destined%20to%20plague%20and%20torment%20the%20continent%20in%20the%20name%20of%20freedom.&f=false) in 1822, as he sought to liberate Latin America from Spanish rule:
QuoteThere is at the head of this great continent a very powerful country, very rich, very warlike, and capable of anything. The United States seems destined to plague and torment the continent in the name of freedom.
-- including the evasion of "inconvenient fact."
Perhaps the "global threat" refers to indigenous Communists. Still more interesting, perhaps, is the way the concept "Communist" is understood. Here the record is voluminous and consistent: to gain the title "Communist," it is enough to work "from the bottom up," appealing to the "poor people" who "have always wanted to plunder the rich," as Secretary of State John Foster Dulles (http://books.google.com/books?id=sMM_SCVNQU0C&pg=PA140&dq=The+poor+people+are+the+ones+they+appeal+to+and+they+have+always+wanted+to+plunder+the+rich,%22&hl=en&ei=r7itTdHmB4iU0QH87cG6Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CFEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=The%20poor%20people%20are%20the%20ones%20they%20appeal%20to%20and%20they%20have%20always%20wanted%20to%20plunder%20the%20rich%2C%22&f=false) described the plague:
QuoteThe poor people are the ones they [the communists] appeal to and they've always wanted to plunder the rich.
That is precisely why the US "dirty wars" in Central America, motivated by the "sincere impulse" to bring democracy, was in large measure a war against the Church -- "Communists," in the technical sense, once the Bishops had adopted "the preferential option for the poor." Nothing changes in this regard as new visions replace the old.
We learn more about our role as "gatekeeper and model" from a World Bank study reported in the London Financial Times just as the new vision of foreign policy was released here. The World Bank (http://books.google.com/books?id=nRDuAAAAMAAJ&q=World+Bank:+Stabilisation+and+structural+adjustment+have+brought+magnificent+returns+to+the+rich%E2%80%94+in+a+continent+with+the+world's+most+unequal+distribution+of+income.+Failures+to+act+aggressively+on+poverty+will+likely+encourage+distributive+conflicts,+prompting+discontent+and+perhaps+even+a+return+to+populism,+dirigisme+and+chaos.&dq=World+Bank:+Stabilisation+and+structural+adjustment+have+brought+magnificent+returns+to+the+rich%E2%80%94+in+a+continent+with+the+world's+most+unequal+distribution+of+income.+Failures+to+act+aggressively+on+poverty+will+likely+encourage+distributive+conflicts,+prompting+discontent+and+perhaps+even+a+return+to+populism,+dirigisme+and+chaos.&hl=en&ei=vmI2TOW2HsG78gaB8NSiAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA) found that Latin America has "the most unequal income distribution in the world," and predicted "chaos" unless governments "act aggressively against poverty," which is truly appalling in its depth and scale:
Quotestabilisation and structural adjustment have brought magnificent returns to the rich— in a continent with the world's most unequal distribution of income. Failures to act aggressively on poverty will likely encourage distributive conflicts, prompting discontent and perhaps even a return to populism, dirigisme and chaos.
The simple truths were underscored by Clinton's Treasury Secretary Lloyd Bentsen: (http://books.google.com/books?id=0VyUe1kMc2wC&pg=PA28&dq=Lloyd+Bentsen+I'm+tired+of+a+level+playing+field.+We+should+tilt+the+playing+field+for+U.S.+businesses.+We+should+have+done+it+20+years+ago&hl=en&ei=2WY2TPPPLYP68AaL4ID1Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false)
QuoteI'm tired of a level playing field. We should tilt the playing field for U.S. businesses. We should have done it 20 years ago.
In fact, "we" (meaning state-corporate power) have been doing it for two centuries, dramatically so in the past 50 years.
Wait, what is this even about?
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 13, 2011, 05:55:37 PM
Wait, what is this even about?
Someone who hate the US.
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 13, 2011, 05:57:40 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 13, 2011, 05:55:37 PM
Wait, what is this even about?
Someone who hate the US.
More hate? They should just give it a rest already.
The "Clinton Doctrine"
President Clinton (http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/pdd25.htm) informed the United Nations in 1993 that the US will act "multilaterally when possible, but unilaterally when necessary:"
QuoteThe Role of Peace Operations in U.S. Foreign Policy Serious threats to the security of the United States still exist in the post-Cold War era. New threats will emerge. The United States remains committed to meeting such threats.
When our interests dictate, the U.S. must be willing and able to fight and win wars, unilaterally whenever necessary.
A position reiterated a year later by UN Ambassador Madeleine Albright and in 1999 by Secretary of Defense William Cohen, and in Clinton's National Security Strategy: (http://"http://www.fas.org/man/docs/qdr/sec3.html")
QuoteThe United States reserves the right to the unilateral use of military power to defend it's vital interests which include:
*Ensuring uninhibited access to key markets, energy supplies, and strategic resources;
*Preventing the emergence of a hostile regional coalition or hegemon;
And indeed anything that Washington might determine to be within its "domestic jurisdiction."
The US is hailed as the leader of the "enlightened states" that are entitled to resort to violence as they see fit. In the Clinton years its foreign policy has ascended to a "noble phase" with a "saintly glow" (according to the New York Times), as America is "at the height of its glory," as for the first time in history a state is dedicated to "principles and values," acting from "altruism" and "moral fervor" alone as the leader of the "enlightened states," hence free to use force where its leaders "believe it to be just"—only a small sample of a deluge from respected liberal voices.
Rogue states that are internally free-and the US is at the outer limits in this respect-must rely on the willingness of the educated classes to produce accolades and to tolerate or deny terrible crimes.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 13, 2011, 06:06:18 PM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 13, 2011, 05:57:40 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 13, 2011, 05:55:37 PM
Wait, what is this even about?
Someone who hate the US.
^^
This an authoritarian way of thinking. Anyone who critizes their government's policies hates their country. This is by definition "unamerican". No secret police here is forcing you to be obediant. North Korea couldnt've done it better.
I really don't know how to respond. Are you hating the US or is it something else?
Militarizing Space to "Protect US Interests and Investments"
This is not a Bush program. It's a bipartisan program. Some of the major and most interesting planning documents related to these issues are from the Clinton period. The United States Space Command recently put out a glossy booklet. It's worth looking at. It's called Vision for 2020. It's a vision of the space command, of where they're going. Missile defense fits in as a small footnote.
It starts on the front page with the wording, with nice graphics, that the vision is militarization of space in order "to protect U.S. interests and investment." That requires several things. For one thing, it requires the militarization of space. It requires anti-satellite weapons to be able to destroy any communication or surveillance of any potential adversary. It requires means to protect U.S. satellites, because missile defense doesn't work unless these satellites are operative.
And remember, the technical problem of shooting down a satellite is a lot simpler than shooting down a missile. A satellite is fixed, either stable or in a fixed orbit. You can predict where it's going to be. An anti-satellite weapon is kind of like a poor country's option. Attacking missiles is much harder. So it requires anti-satellite weapons, protection against anti-satellite weapons of some adversary. It requires what's called "full-spectrum dominance," where you've got to control everything because it's too dangerous. First-strike weapons from space are required:
Quote"Full Spectrum Dominance"
Militarizing Space "to protect U.S. interests and investments" from the "have nots" (victims of Corporate-Globalization):
USSPACECOM VISION FOR 2020 (http://www.fas.org/spp/military/docops/usspac/lrp/ch01.htm)
US Space Command—dominating the space dimension of military operations to protect US interests and investment.
Integrating Space Forces into warfighting capabilities across the full spectrum of conflict.
The emerging synergy of space superiority-equal to land sea, and air superiority-will enable us to achieve Full Spectrum Dominance.
INTRODUCTION:
Navies and armies have evolved to protect national interests and investments. As sea commerce advanced in the 18th and 19th Centuries, nations formed navies to project power and to protect and enhance their commercial interests. Similarly, during the westward expansion of the continental United States, military outposts and cavalry emerged to protect our wagon trains, settlements and railroads.
Air power emerged differently because it evolved to support land and sea operations (e.g., communications and reconnaissance), not to protect national economic interests. Over time, however, air power became a separate instrument of warfare, protecting national interests and ensuring freedom of action in the air.
Eventually, space power will parallel both models. For several decades, it has mainly supported land, sea, and air operations—strategically and operationally. Early in the 21st Century, space will become another medium of warfare. As the United States relies more on space-based capabilities, space forces may protect the country's commercial assets in this medium.
Space power will help overcome the widening gap between increasing military commitments and diminishing resources. In fact, space power is vital to attaining the operational concepts of Joint Vision 2010. These operational concepts are described below, along with the contributions from space capabilities (Figure 2-1).
POLITICAL:
*The United States will remain a global power and exert global leadership.
*The globalization of the world economy will also continue- with a widening between 'haves' and 'have-nots'.
*The main causes of warfare will be national-ism, ethnic separatism, religious extremism, and scarce resources.
*Nation-states will continue to fragment, sparking regional unrest.
*Non-state actors (e.g., drug cartels, crime syndicates, terrorist organizations, as well as non-governmental organizations and multi-national corporations) will become more important.
*The United States won't always be able to forward base its forces. One of the long acknowledged and commonly understood advantages of space-based platforms is no restriction of country clearances to over fly a nation from space.
*Widespread communications will highlight disparities in resources and quality of life-contributing to unrest in developing countries.
ECONOMIC:
*We need to turn to space as an essential program to support our economic competitiveness and to help our assessment of ways to reverse the negative trends in the environment.
*The global economy will continue to become more interdependent. Economic alliances as well as the growth and influence of multinational corporations will blur security agreements.
*The gap between have and have-not nations will widen, creating regional unrest.
MILITARY:
*Forward presence will continue to be important to shaping and preparing a region, but sovereignty issues may impede it.
*Coalitions will continue to be important to future US military operations, but the United States will keep the ability to act unilaterally if required.
*The United States won't always be able to forward base its forces. One of the long acknowledged and commonly understood advantages of space-based platforms is no restriction of country clearances to over fly a nation from space.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fas.org%2Fspp%2Fmilitary%2Fdocops%2Fusspac%2Flrp%2FFig2-1.jpg&hash=cbd1f80d5615cd8ebfc7201dfd41ea158ac677ac)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fas.org%2Fspp%2Fmilitary%2Fdocops%2Fusspac%2Flrp%2FFig2-3.jpg&hash=66fa07c573918f68590cb183ceeed62e6aa751ff)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fas.org%2Fspp%2Fmilitary%2Fdocops%2Fusspac%2Flrp%2FFig2-4.jpg&hash=cbbf169d82e2079755f6c83ab5a21b029bbce051)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fas.org%2Fspp%2Fmilitary%2Fdocops%2Fusspac%2Flrp%2FFig2-5.jpg&hash=ca6345569892d51436e2f13f7d86bd4a89309473)
When the American EP-3 spy plane was over China in April, it was clearly trying to obtain information that would be useful for a potential first nuclear strike. And the Chinese knew that, certainly. First strike is U.S. policy, even against non-nuclear states. When the American EP-3 spy plane was over China in April, it was clearly trying to obtain information that would be useful for a potential first nuclear strike. And the Chinese knew that, certainly. First strike is U.S. policy, even against non-nuclear states.
It's been pointed out by critics in the mainstream, in Foreign Affairs, for example, that there's an inherent contradiction in the current plans that the strategic analysts are worried about, namely that you can't both have missile defense and anti-satellite weapons, because a missile defense system requires satellites to coordinate and control it. So if there are going to be anti-satellite weapons, they're going to destroy a missile defense system. Vision for 2020 and the Rumsfeld Commission report have an answer for that.
The answer is, as I said, full-spectrum dominance, such total dominance of space that no adversary will even come close.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 13, 2011, 06:13:19 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 13, 2011, 06:07:52 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 13, 2011, 06:06:18 PM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 13, 2011, 05:57:40 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 13, 2011, 05:55:37 PM
Wait, what is this even about?
Someone who hate the US.
^^
This an authoritarian way of thinking. Anyone who critizes their government's policies hates their country. This is by definition "unamerican". No secret police here is forcing you to be obediant. North Korea couldnt've done it better.
I really don't know how to respond. Are you hating the US or is it something else?
The entire premise of your statement is unamerican. "Hating the US"? You might find this type of rethoric in totalitarian states. It's like this man. Every time he challenges me with nonsonse I will respond with more.
So you hate the US?
this is all under the assumption that American Influence doesn't benefit the Population here.
Quote from: chupacabras acheronsis on Apr 13, 2011, 06:26:27 PM
this is all under the assumption that American Influence doesn't benefit the Population here.
Ah, that clears a few things up.
Quote from: chupacabras acheronsis on Apr 13, 2011, 12:19:05 AM
and America is just to big to be united. it's not a country which can agree on anything but TV shows.
I don't agree with the TV shows. except the old ones. and V.
Quote from: AliceApocalypse on Apr 13, 2011, 06:30:20 PM
Quote from: chupacabras acheronsis on Apr 13, 2011, 12:19:05 AM
and America is just to big to be united. it's not a country which can agree on anything but TV shows.
I don't agree with the TV shows. except the old ones. and V.
I agree.
From "Control of Space" to "Ownership of Space"
The U.N. Committee on Disarmament (http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2008/gadis3371.doc.htm) adopted a resolution that called for stronger measures to prevent militarization of space, recognizing this to be:
Quotea grave danger for international peace and security.
And another that reaffirmed: (http://"http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2009/gadis3400.doc.htm")
Quotethe 1925 Geneva Protocol prohibiting the use of poisonous gases and bacteriological methods of warfare.
Both passed unanimously, with two abstentions, the United States and Israel. U.S. abstention amounts to a veto: typically, a double veto, banning the events from the news record and from history.
The world's intelligence agencies can read the AIR FORCE SPACE COMMAND STRATEGIC MASTER PLAN (http://"http://www.fas.org/spp/guide/usa/StrategicMasterPlan04.pdf") as easily as I can. And they will draw appropriate conclusions, increasing the risk to all of us. We should recall that history - including recent history - offers many examples of leaders consciously enhancing very serious threats in pursuit of narrow power interests. By now, however, the stakes are much higher.
The Space Command released plans to go beyond U.S. "control" of space for military purposes to "ownership," which is to be permanent, in accord with the Security Strategy. Ownership of space is "key to our nation's military effectiveness," permitting "instant engagement anywhere in the world. . . . A viable prompt global strike capability, whether nuclear or non-nuclear, will allow the United States to rapidly strike high-payoff, difficult-to-defeat targets from stand-off ranges and produce the desired effect . . . [and] to provide warfighting commanders the ability to rapidly deny, delay, deceive, disrupt, destroy, exploit and neutralize targets in hours/minutes rather than weeks/days even when U.S. and allied forces have a limited forward presence," thus reducing the need for overseas bases that regularly arouse local antagonism.
Similar plans had been outlined in a May 2002 Pentagon planning document (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/07/13/attack/main515083.shtml), partially leaked, which called for a strategy of "forward deterrence" in which missiles launched from space platforms would be able to carry out almost instant "unwarned attacks."
Military analyst William Arkin (http://www.nukewatch.org/media/more_media/07-00-02/07-15-02/highTech.html) comments that:
QuoteNo target on the planet or in space would be immune to American attack. The U.S. could strike without warning whenever and wherever a threat was perceived, and it would be protected by missile defenses. Hypersonic drones would monitor and disrupt targets. Surveillance systems would provide the ability to track, record and analyze the movement of every vehicle in a foreign city.
The world is to be left at mercy of U.S. attack at will, without warning or credible pretext. The plans have no remote historical parallel. Even more fanciful ones are under development.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 13, 2011, 06:35:44 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 13, 2011, 06:15:28 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 13, 2011, 06:13:19 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 13, 2011, 06:07:52 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 13, 2011, 06:06:18 PM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 13, 2011, 05:57:40 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 13, 2011, 05:55:37 PM
Wait, what is this even about?
Someone who hate the US.
^^
This an authoritarian way of thinking. Anyone who critizes their government's policies hates their country. This is by definition "unamerican". No secret police here is forcing you to be obediant. North Korea couldnt've done it better.
I really don't know how to respond. Are you hating the US or is it something else?
The entire premise of your statement is unamerican. "Hating the US"? You might find this type of rethoric in totalitarian states. It's like this man. Every time he challenges me with nonsonse I will respond with more.
So you hate the US?
No, I hate covert and overt colonial wars. Take what's happenning now for example. The Obama team overthrew the democratically elected government of Honduras in 2009 and installed a fascist regime. They attempted to overthrow the democratically elected government of Equador in 2010, and they have been working to overthrow the democratically elected government in Venezuela. They established military bases in Colombia, right on the boarder of Venezuela. Various NGO's like the NED, USAID, the NDI, and the IRI are currently in Bolivia, Equador, Argentina, Venezuela, and Nicaragua trying to organize military coup's because these "nationalist" governments "respond" to the "increasing popular demand for immediate improvement in the low living standards of the masses, with the result that most Latin American governments are under intense domestic political pressures to increase production and to diversify their economies."
Do you honestly think that the US is the only one doing this?
We've moved onto the "Well everyone else is doing it, mom!" argument I see.
CIA-Military Coup and Death Squad Killings in Guatemala
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ-E--rmi3k#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ-E--rmi3k#ws)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02SSYm_NapM# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02SSYm_NapM#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgFMREdwQwA# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgFMREdwQwA#)
In 1944, a revolution in Guatemala overthrew a vicious tyrant, leading to the establishment of a democratic government that basically modeled itself on Roosevelt's New Deal.
From The National Security Archives declassified US documents: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB4/)
QuoteArbenz was elected President of Guatemala in 1950 to continue a process of socio- economic reforms that the CIA disdainfully refers to in its memoranda as "an intensely nationalistic program of progress colored by the touchy, anti-foreign inferiority complex of the 'Banana Republic.'"
In the ten-year democratic interlude that followed, there were the beginnings of successful independent economic development. That caused virtual hysteria in Washington. Eisenhower and Dulles warned that the "self defense and self-preservation" of the United States was at stake unless the virus was exterminated. US intelligence reports were very candid about the dangers posed by capitalist democracy in Guatemala.
A CIA memorandum of 1952 (http://www.faqs.org/cia/docs/125/0000020500/PROBABLE-DEVELOPMENTS-IN-GUATEMALA.html) described the situation in Guatemala as follows:
QuoteThe current political situation is adverse to US interests. In the name of the Revolution, the successive administrations of Arevalo and Arbenz have pursued radical and nationalistic policies. Their persecution of foreign economic interests in Guatemala, especially the United Fruit Company, and their demands for the "restitution" of Belize (British Honduras} have had the support or acquiescence of almost all Guatemalans.
Guatemala has frequently taken occasion to demonstrate its independence of US leadership and in general has been less cooperative than could be desired, particularly in Hemispheric affairs. Moreover, the regime has systematically been hostile toward US private economic interests in Guatemala.
Their promotion of labor organizations and agrarian reforms has tended to neutralise political opposition by creating mass support for the present regime. Any objection to the trend of developments has been stigmatized as resistance to the Revolution by "feudal" and "imperialistic" interests.
Things became still worse after a successful land reform began to threaten "stability" in neighboring countries where suffering people did not fail to take notice.
Charles R. Burrows of the U.S. State Department's Bureau of Inter-American Affairs (http://books.google.com/books?id=mS7ZVKa6i3AC&pg=PA365&dq=Guatemala+has+become+an+increasing+threat+to+the+stability+of+Honduras+and+El+Salvador.+Its+agrarian+reform+is+a+powerful+propaganda+weapon;+its+broad+social+program+of+aiding+the+workers+and+peasants+in+a+victorious+struggle+against+the+upper+classes+and+large+foreign+enterprises+has+a+strong+appeal+to+the+populations+of+Central+American+neighbors+where+similar+conditions+prevail.&hl=en&ei=CH6oTabvPMHngQe8s-nzBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCsQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=Guatemala%20has%20become%20an%20increasing%20threat%20to%20the%20stability%20of%20Honduras%20and%20El%20Salvador.%20Its%20agrarian%20reform%20is%20a%20powerful%20propaganda%20weapon%3B%20its%20broad%20social%20program%20of%20aiding%20the%20workers%20and%20peasants%20in%20a%20victorious%20struggle%20against%20the%20upper%20classes%20and%20large%20foreign%20enterprises%20has%20a%20strong%20appeal%20to%20the%20populations%20of%20Central%20American%20neighbors%20where%20similar%20conditions%20prevail.&f=false) warned that:
QuoteGuatemala has become an increasing threat to the stability of Honduras and El Salvador. Its agrarian reform is a powerful propaganda weapon; its broad social program of aiding the workers and peasants in a victorious struggle against the upper classes and large foreign enterprises has a strong appeal to the populations of Central American neighbors where similar conditions prevail.
In short, the situation was pretty awful. So the CIA carried out a successful coup.
From the National Security Archives declassified US documents: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB4/)
QuotePBSUCCESS, authorized by President Eisenhower in August 1953, carried a $2.7 million budget for "pychological warfare and political action" and "subversion," among the other components of a small paramilitary war. But, according to the CIA's own internal study of the agency's so-called "K program," up until the day Arbenz resigned on June 27, 1954, "the option of assassination was still being considered." Although Arbenz and his top aides were able to flee the country, after the CIA installed Castillo Armas in power, hundreds of Guatemalans were rounded up and killed.
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After overthrowing the democratic government of Guatemala, the United State installed a series of right wing military juntas, which, with the aid, training & support of the CIA nad Green Berets murdered an estimated 200,000 people.
In an article entiteled "Papers show US role in Guatemalan abuses", The Washington Post reports: (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/daily/march99/guatemala11.htm)
QuoteDuring the 1960s, the United States was intimately involved in equipping and training Guatemalan security forces that murdered thousands of civilians in the nation's civil war, according to newly declassified U.S. intelligence documents.
Guatamala was turned into the slaughterhouse it remained untill 1996, with regular US intervention whenever things threaten to get out of line.
From the National Security Archives declassified US documents: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB15/press.html)
QuoteGUATEMALAN DEATH SQUAD DOSSIER:
The Guatemalan military kept detailed records of its death squad operations, according to a document released by four human rights and public interest groups today. The army log reveals the fate of scores of Guatemalan citizens who were "disappeared" by security forces during the mid-1980s.
Throughout the war, the Guatemalan military used abduction, torture and assassination in their counterinsurgency campaign against the Guatemalan left. By the time the government and the guerrillas signed the peace accord in 1996, some 160,000 people had been killed and 40,000 "disappeared" -- 93 percent at the hands of the Guatemalan security forces, according to "Guatemala: Memory of Silence," the report of the Historical Clarification Commission.
By the late 1970s, atrocities were again mounting beyond the terrible norm, eliciting verbal protests. And yet, contrary to what many people believe, military aid to Guatemala continued at virtually the same level under the Carter "human rights" administration. The Carter administration poured and average of $13.7 million a year into the death squad war. Our allies have been enlisted in the cause as well- notably Israel, which is regarded as a "strategic asset" in part because of its success in guiding state terrorism.
Under Reagan, support for genocide in Guatemala became positively ecstatic.
The New York Times reports: (http://www.nytimes.com/1987/04/19/world/central-america-s-arms-buildup-the-risk-of-guns-without-butter.html?pagewanted=all)
QuoteThe Administration has sent hundreds of American advisers and C.I.A. operatives to oversee the training, arming and management of Central American client states' armies and police over the last six years. In Guatemala, Nicaragua and El Salvador, they became among the most repressive and corrupt armies in Latin America and the Reagan Administration has continued the traditional American practice of funneling military aid directly to local armies and police forces. In Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador and Panama, Government officials have virtually no say in whether the aid will be given or how it will be used.
Furthermore, the Washington Post reports: (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/daily/march99/guatemala11.htm)
QuoteThe documents show that the CIA retained close ties to the Guatemalan army in the 1980s, when the army and its paramilitary allies were massacring Indian villagers, and that U.S. officials were aware of the killings at the time. The documents were obtained by the National Security Archive, a private nonprofit group in Washington.
Some of the documents were made available to an independent commission formed to investigate human rights abuses during Guatemala's 36-year civil war, which killed an estimated 200,000 people.
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U.S. military advisers confer as Col. Carlos Arana Osorio
and an aide look on (U.S. Army, 1965)
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The most extreme of the Guatemalan Hitlers Washington propped up, Rios Montt, was lauded by Reagan as "a man of great personal integrity" who was "totally dedicated to democracy," and dismissed charges of atrocities in Guatemala as a "bum rap.".
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In an article entiteled "Party to Mass Murder?", Human Rights Watch reports: (http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2003/11/07/party-mass-murder)
QuoteIn the early 1980s he [Rios Montt] headed a military regime that carried out hundreds of massacres of unarmed civilians and -- according to a U.N.-sponsored truth commission -- "acts of genocide."
Reagan posed with Rios Montt, praised him as "a man of great personal integrity" who was "totally dedicated to democracy," and dismissed charges of atrocities in Guatemala as a "bum rap."
As Reagan spoke, Rios Montt's troops were preparing to march on a village called Las Dos Erres for a counterinsurgency operation that was to include the rape of young women, smashing of infants' heads and the interment of more than 160 civilians -- some while still alive -- in the village well.
In the early 1980s, Washington's death squads slaughtered tens of thousands of Guatemalans, mostly Indians in the highlands, with countless others tortured and raped. Large regions were decimated. The 1999 UN-sponsored Commission for Historical Clarification determined they were "acts of genocide against groups of Mayan people." (http://www.un.org/News/briefings/docs/1999/19990301.guate.brf.html)
From the Truth Commission report: (http://shr.aaas.org/guatemala/ceh/report/english/conc2.html)
QuoteUsing the National Security Doctrine as its justification, and acting in the name of anti-communism, crimes were committed which include the kidnapping and assassination of political activists, students, trade unionists and human rights advocates, all categorised as "subversives"; the forced disappearance of political and social leaders and poor peasants; and the systematic use of torture.
The Truth Commission report on the role of the United States in the death squad war: (http://shr.aaas.org/guatemala/ceh/report/english/conc1.html)
QuoteThe United States demonstrated that it was willing to provide support for strong military regimes in its strategic backyard. In the case of Guatemala, military assistance was directed towards reinforcing the national intelligence apparatus and for training the officer corps in counterinsurgency techniques, key factors which had significant bearing on human rights violations during the armed confrontation.
From School of the Americas Watch: (http://www.soaw.org/pressrelease.php?id=26)
QuoteThe truth commission report singled out the controversial US Army School of the Americas (SOA) for its counterinsurgency training that "had a significant bearing on human rights violations during the armed conflict."
In describing the National Security Doctrine taught at the SOA, the independent Historical Clarification Commission (CEH) report states: "By identifying all opponents as adversaries, the National Security Doctrine helped to broaden the definition of counterinsurgency and to spread techniques of persecution...within a growing atmosphere of State terror."
The US army School of the Americas played a key role (http://www.soaw.org/article.php?id=239) in the three brutal military dictatorships that ruled Guatemala from 1978 to 1986.
According to documents obtained by School of the Americas Watch: (http://www.soaw.org/article.php?id=239)
QuoteNotorious Graduates from Guatemala
SOA graduates comprised four of eight military officials in the cabinet of Lucas Garcia , six out of nine under Rios Montt, and five out of ten under Mejia Victores.
Furthermore, three top leaders and many officials of the fearsome Guatemalan intelligence agency D-2 (also known as G-2) were SOA graduates. In a chapter titled "D-2: The Very name of Fear," the Guatemala Nunca Mas Report states that Guatemalan military intelligence played "a central role in the conduct of military operations, in massacres, extra-judicial executions, forced disappearances and torture" (Vol. 2, p.65)
SOA graduates featured in the report include three D-2 directors, Francisco Ortega Menaldo, Cesar Augusto Cabrera Mejia, Manuel Callejas y Callejas, and others in leadership posts, including Federico Sobalvarro Meza, Cesar Quinteros Alvarado, Luis Felipe Caballeros Meza, Harry Ponce, Francisco Edgar Dominguez Lopez, Eduardo Ochoa Barrios, Domingo Velasquez Axpuac and Jose Manuel Rivas Rios. (Guatemala Nunca Mas)
Guatemalan Death Firing Squad
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pfft. no "nationalistic group" wants to improve living standards, they just want to move things around for their own convenience. nobody really cares about poor people.
what does that story has to do with anything, anyways? that's a Private landlord being an asshole, no US there.
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 13, 2011, 06:38:28 PM
We've moved onto the "Well everyone else is doing it, mom!" argument I see.
I was just winging it. :P
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 13, 2011, 06:43:23 PM
Quote from: chupacabras acheronsis on Apr 13, 2011, 06:26:27 PM
this is all under the assumption that American Influence doesn't benefit the Population here.
QuoteGLOBAL TRENDS 2015:
Globalization's evolution will be rocky, marked by chronic financial volatility and a widening economic divide. Regions, countries, and groups left behind will face deepening economic stagnation, political instability, and cultural alienation.
http://www.dni.gov/nic/NIC_globaltrend2015.htm (http://www.dni.gov/nic/NIC_globaltrend2015.htm)
http://www.globalenvision.org/files/sweatshop.jpg
Overall US enforced authoritarian and corporate-state capitalist programs in El Salvador were described by one Salvadoran (http://books.google.com/books?id=mnuVgm-OtA4C&pg=PA161&dq=I+used+to+work+on+a+hasienda.+My+job+was+to+take+care+of+the+dueno's+%5Bowner's%5D+dogs.++I+gave+them+meat+and+bowls+of+milk,+food+that+I+couldn't+give+to+my+own+family.+When+the+dogs+were+sick,+I+%20took+them+to+the+veterinarian.+When+my+children+were+sick,+the+%5Bowner%5D+gave+me+his+sympathy,+but+no+medicine+as+they+died.+To+watch+your+children+die+in+sickness+and+hunger+while+you+can+do+nothing+is+violence+to+the+spirit.+We+have+suffered+that+silently+for+too+many+years.&hl=en&ei=wc84TN2oLIT78Aax282nBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false) this way in 1995:
QuoteI used to work on a hasienda. My job was to take care of the [owner's] dogs. I gave them meat and bowls of milk, food that I couldn't give to my own family. When the dogs were sick, I took them to the veterinarian. When my children were sick, the [owner] gave me his sympathy, but no medicine as they died. To watch your children die in sickness and hunger while you can do nothing is violence to the spirit. We have suffered that silently for too many years.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MRw9Vzv_nuI/StIAlYtBILI/AAAAAAAAAJQ/QAlCUPZ01xk/s400/sweatshop+1.JPEG
Um what?
US Military Coup in Brazil
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFKgfekb328# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFKgfekb328#)
Lars Schoultz, one of the leading specialists on Latin America (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Lars%20Schoultz%20to%20destroy%20permanently%20a%20perceived%20threat%20to%20the%20existing%20structure%20of%20socioeconomic%20privilege%20by%20eliminating%20the%20political%20participation%20of%20the%20numerical%20majority%20brazil&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=bks:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp), writes that the US goal in Latin America was to:
Quoteto destroy permanently a perceived threat to the existing structure of socioeconomic privilege by eliminating the political participation of the numerical majority.
One US strategy was to establish Neo-Nazi National Security States. The move set off a plague of repression and terror throughout the continent, reaching Central America during the Reaganite phase of the current political leadership.
The plague began with the military coup in Brazil set in motion before Kennedy's assassination and carried out shortly after. Washington cooperated with the military forces that overthrew parliamentary democracy in recognition of their "basically democratic and pro United States orientation," Kennedy's ambassador Lincoln Gordan explained.
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From the National Security Archives declassified US documents: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB118/index.htm)
QuoteAudio tape: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB118/index.htm#audio) President Johnson urged taking "every step that we can" to support overthrow of Joao Goulart. U.S. Ambassador Requested Pre-positioned Armaments to aid Golpistas; Acknowledged covert operations backing street demonstrations, civic forces and resistance groups.
U.S. Ambassador Requested Pre-positioned Armaments to aid Golpistas; Acknowledged covert operations backing street demonstrations, civic forces and resistance groups. The documents and cables refer to the coup forces as "the democratic rebellion". After General Castello Branco's takeover, the military ruled Brazil until 1985.
While the torturers and assassins were carrying out their work, Gordan hailed "the most decisive victory for freedom in the mid-twentieth century."The "democratic rebellion," Gordan cabled Washington, would help in "restraining left wing excesses" of the former moderate populist elected government, and the "democratic forces" now in charge should "create a greatly improved climate for private investment."
Human Rights Watch reports: (http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/04/14/brazil-prosecute-dictatorship-era-abuses)
QuoteThe Brazilian military regime from 1964 to 1985 was responsible for systematic human rights violations, including extrajudicial killings, forced disappearances, torture, arbitrary detention, and the curtailment of free expression. According to official estimates, around 50,000 persons were detained just in the first months of the dictatorship and roughly 10,000 went into exile at some point during that period.
Lincoln Gordan's view was endorsed by other leading figures in the Kennedy-Johnson administrations, though by the 1980's, as in Chile at the same time, the Brazilian Generals were happy to transfer the wreckage to civilian hands.
According to the Professor Helio Jaguiribe commission report on "Brazil's social problems," (http://books.google.com/books?id=b0kpyNx8sVwC&pg=PA289&lpg=PA289&dq=Brazil%27s+social+problems+brazil+the+same+category+as+the+less+developed+African+or+Asian+countries+when+it+came+to+social+welfare+indices&source=bl&ots=Qn-xyXnwqc&sig=eWnicWCm9sfZQyTSumnQan3R-oU&hl=en&ei=nROYS676OsyXtgf-z8jkAQ&am%20p;sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Brazil's%20social%20problems%20brazil%20the%20same%20category%20as%20the%20less%20developed%20African%20or%20Asian%20countries%20when%20it%20came%20to%20social%20welfare%20indices&f=false) despite the enormous advantages of the "colossus of the south" the Generals had left Brazil in "the same category as the less developed African or Asian countries when it came to social welfare indices" (malnutrition, infant mortality, etc) with conditions of inequality and suffering rarely matched elsewhere, but a grand success for foreign investors and domestic privilege.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsLdCyXoYRc# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsLdCyXoYRc#)
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During the military rule of Emilio Garrastazú Médici, the US and Brazil conspired to overthrow the social democratic president of Chile - Salvador Allende, and later discussed working together to topple other left leaning populist governments in Latin America.
From the National Security Archives declassified US documents: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB282/index.htm)
QuoteDeclassified U.S. Documents Show Richard Nixon and Brazilian President Emilio Médici Discussed Coordinated Intervention in Chile, Cuba, and other Latin American nations "to prevent new Allendes and Castros"
In December 1971, President Richard Nixon and Brazilian President Emilio Garrastazú Médici discussed Brazil's role in efforts to overthrow the elected government of Salvador Allende in Chile, formerly Top Secret records posted by the National Security Archive today reveal.
Nixon told Médici, "must try and prevent new Allendes and try where possible to reverse these trends."
a CIA intelligence memorandum noted that Médici had proposed that Brazil and the U.S. cooperate in countering the "trend of Marxist/leftist expansion" in Latin America and that Nixon promised to "assist Brazil when and wherever possible."
A CIA National Intelligence Estimate done in 1972 predicted that Brazil would play an increasingly bigger role in hemispheric affairs, "seeking to fill whatever vacuum the US leaves behind. It is unlikely that Brazil will intervene openly in its neighbors internal affairs," the intelligence assessment predicted, "but the regime will not be above using the threat of intervention or tools of diplomacy and covert action to oppose leftist regimes, or keep friendly governments in office, or to help place them there in countries such as Bolivia and Uruguay."
In 2002, National Security Archive analyst Carlos Osorio posted a declassified Top Secret memorandum of conversation of Nixon's meeting with British Prime Minister Edward Heath dated December 20, 1971, during which the two discussed Brazil's role in South America. "Our position is supported by Brazil, which is after all the key to the future," states Nixon, "The Brazilians helped rig the Uruguayan election... There are forces at work which we are not discouraging."
He's was old Decrepit Buffoon which often made things worse but he did what needed to be done. really the country was gone to shit, people were hungry and the UP was way out of line. you may not know there were multiple other attempts at coup before 1973.
i stand dead center because i know both sides did awry shit. however, i won't let anyone implicitly wash their hands by bringing up shit that should be over with long time ago. specially Anarchist brats who aren't even older than me rubbing shit they weren't alive to have a say on. you know, the kind that go out to trow molotov cocktails and burn bus stops every September 11th, or that ruined the Students manifestations back in 06.
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US Military Coup and support for General Pinochet's tryanny in Chile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00kQorWVIsw#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00kQorWVIsw#ws)
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Inquiry reveals that the real enemy of the United States is independant nationalism, particularly when it threatens to become a
"contagious example", to borrow Henry Kissinger's characterization of social democracy in Chile, a
"virus" that, he feared, might
"infect" other countries as far away as the southern Europe. The source of the contagion therefore had to be destroyed, as it was.
In October 1970, President Richard Nixon was cursing in the Oval Office about the Social Democratic president of Chile, Salvador Allende. "That son of a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)!" said Richard Nixon on 15 October. "That son of a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*) Allende – we're going to smash him." A few weeks later he explained why.
From the National Security Archives declassified US documents: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20001113/701106.pdf)
QuoteIf Chile moves as we expect and is able to get away with it -- our public posture is important here -- it gives courage to others who are sitting on the fence in Latin America.
I will never agree with the policy of downgrading the military in Latin America.They are power centers subject to our influence. The others (the intellectuals) are not subject to our influence. We want to give them some help. Brazil and Argentina particularly. Build them up with consultation. I want Defense to move on this. We'll go for more in the budget if necessary.
The main concern in Chile is that [Allende] can consolidate himself, and the picture projected to the world will be his success ... If we let the potential leaders in South America think they can move like Chile and have it both ways, we will be in trouble.
No impression should be permitted in Latin America that they can get away with this, that it's safe to go this way. All over the world it's too much the fashion to kick us around. We are not sensitive but our reactions must be coldly proper. We cannot fail to show our displeasure. We can't put up with "Give Americans hell but pray they don't go away." There must be times when we should and must react, not because we want to hurt them but to show we can't be kicked around.
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Furthermore, from the National Security Archives declassified US documents: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB110/index.htm)
QuoteKissinger personally requested an hour to brief Nixon on November 5 in preparation for a National Security Council meeting to discuss Chile strategy the next day. The briefing paper records his threat perception of an Allende government as a model for other countries. As Kissinger informed the president: "The example of a successful elected Marxist government in Chile would surely have an impact on-an even precedent value for-other parts of the world, especially in Italy; the imitative spread of similar phenomena elsewhere would in turn significantly affect the world balance and our own position in it."
Thus, President Richard Nixon ordered the CIA to destroy Chile's left leaning populist democracy and establish and fascist totalitarian state which would protect
"our postition" in the
"world balance" by teaching others that progressive economic reforms would not be tolerated.
The United States pursued a two-track policy toward Allende's Chile. At the overt level, Washington was frosty, especially after the nationalization of the copper mines. The government of President Richard M. Nixon launched an economic blockade conjunction with U.S. multinationals (ITT, Kennecott, Anaconda) and banks (Inter-American Development Bank, World Bank).
The US squeezed the Chilean economy by terminating financial assistance and blocking loans from multilateral organizations. But during 1972 and 1973 the US increased aid to the military, a sector unenthusiastic toward the Allende government. The United States also increased training Chilean military personnel in the United States and Panama.
On Tuesday, September 11, 1973, a date often called "the other 9/11" in Latin America, Pinochet's forces attacked the Chilean presidential palace. Salvador Allende, the democratically elected president, died in the palace, apparently by his own hand, because he was unwilling to surrender to the assault that demolished Latin America's oldest, most vibrant democracy and established a regime of torture and repression.
From the National Security Archives declassified US documents: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm)
QuotePresident Richard Nixon had ordered the CIA to "make the economy scream" in Chile to "prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him."
These documents include:
** Cables written by U.S. Ambassador Edward Korry after Allende's election, detailing conversations with President Eduardo Frei on how to block the president-elect from being inaugurated. The cables contain detailed descriptions and opinions on the various political forces in Chile, including the Chilean military, the Christian Democrat Party, and the U.S. business community.
** CIA memoranda and reports on "Project FUBELT"--the codename for covert operations to promote a military coup and undermine Allende's government. The documents, including minutes of meetings between Henry Kissinger and CIA officials, CIA cables to its Santiago station, and summaries of covert action in 1970, provide a clear paper trail to the decisions and operations against Allende's government .
** National Security Council strategy papers which record efforts to "destabilize" Chile economically, and isolate Allende's government diplomatically, between 1970 and 1973.
** State Department and NSC memoranda and cables after the coup, providing evidence of human rights atrocities under the new military regime led by General Pinochet.
More declassified documents on the CIA-military coup in Chile from the National Security Archive: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20001113/)
QuoteAmong the key documents declassified that shed considerable light on the history of U.S. involvement in Chile, and the repression of the Pinochet regime are:
*Files on National Security Council and cabinet meetings chaired by Richard Nixon recording his administration's commitment to "do everything we can to bring Allende down" after covert efforts to foment a coup to prevent his inauguration failed. (Dozens of other White House, CIA and NSC records, used by Frank Church's special committee reports on Chile in 1975, have been declassified for the first time.)
*U.S. government efforts to avoid pressuring the Pinochet regime on human rights atrocities.
The official death toll for the coup is 3,200; the actual toll is commonly estimated at double that figure. An official inquiry 30 years after the coup found evidence of approximately 28,000 cases of torture during the Pinochet regime.
Reuters reports: (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN20304380)
QuoteNearly 3,200 people died or disappeared in political violence during the 1973-1990 dictatorship, according to government accounts. The vast majority were killed by Pinochet's forces and by his infamous secret police in clandestine detention centers. Another 28,000 were tortured, according to official figures.
Furthermore the CIA actively supported the Junta and his secret police from 1973-1990.
From the National Security Archives declassified US documents:
(http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20000919/)
QuoteAfter twenty-seven years of withholding details about covert activities following the 1973 military coup in Chile, the CIA released a report yesterday acknowledging its close relations with General Augusto Pinochet's violent regime. The report, "CIA Activities in Chile," revealed for the first time that the head of the Chile's feared secret police, DINA, was a paid CIA asset in 1975, and that CIA contacts continued with him long after he dispatched his agents to Washington D.C. to assassinate former Chilean Ambassador Orlando Letelier and his 25-year old American associate, Ronni Karpen Moffitt.
"CIA actively supported the military Junta after the overthrow of Allende," the report states. "Many of Pinochet's officers were involved in systematic and widespread human rights abuses....Some of these were contacts or agents of the CIA or US military."
Many of Pinochet's henchmen trained at the US Army School of the Americas in Fort Benning Georgia.
From declassified US documents obtained by School of the Americas Watch: (http://www.soaw.org/article.php?id=234)
QuoteGeneral Augusto Pinochet was not a graduate of the School of the Americas; yet his influence is held in high esteem. in 1991, visitors could view a note from Pinochet, and a ceremonial sword donated by him, on display in the office of the Commandant (Charles Call, MH, 8/9/93)
Graduates of the School of the Americas have also comprised 1 out of every 7 members of the command staff of DINA, the notorious Chilean intelligence agency responsible for many of the worst human rights atrocities during the Pinochet years.
Pinochet soon moved to integrate other US-backed Latin American military dictatorships into an international state terrorism program called "Operation Condor". The program killed and tortured mercilessly within the region, while installing US-backed fascist regimes in Ecuador and Bolivia, and branched out into terrorist operations in Europe and the United States.
From the National Security Archives declassified US documents:
(http://"http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010306/")
QuoteOn March 6, 2001, The New York Times reported the existence of a recently declassified State Department document revealing that the United States facilitated communications among South American intelligence chiefs who were working together to eliminate left-wing opposition groups in their countries as part of a covert program known as Operation Condor.
The document, a 1978 cable from Robert E. White, the U.S. ambassador to Paraguay, was discovered by Professor J. Patrice McSherry of Long Island University, who has published several articles on Condor. She called the cable "another piece of increasingly weighty evidence suggesting that U.S. military and intelligence officials supported and collaborated with Condor as a secret partner or sponsor."
Throughout these crimes, and long after, Pinochet was greatly honored by Ronald Reagan and Margeret Thatcher. After Operation Condor was called off, the venom continued to spread. The worst atrocities in Argentina were yet to come, along with the expansion of state terror to Central America by the current incumbants in Washington.
Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy (http://books.google.com/books?id=9p4A-omIdgYC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=Throughout+these+crimes,+and+long+after,+Pinochet+was+greatly+honored+by+Ronald+Reagan+and+Margeret+Thatcher.+After+Operation+Condor+was+called+off,+the+venom+continued+to+spread.+The+worst+atrocities+in+Argentina+were+yet+to+come,+along+with+the+expansion+of+state+terror+to+Central+America+by+the+current+incumbants+in+Washington.&source=bl&ots=qoDg760vQj&sig=RYoXIpXaUb6cZ0eCBOurmTHqG8o&hl=en&ei=BkXoS5-IJcH58Aa82rT4DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Interesting. So is the MKULTRA stuff.
I would be impressed if he posted current documents. Otherwise, it's like saying that Germany is still being run by the Nazis because he uncovered some documents from 1939.
you keep citing biased sources. it's like if didn't had any others...
and the Left Tortured and Killed their fair share of Dissidents too. look it up. the country had to move out of it.
The National Security Archive
ON 30th ANNIVERSARY OF ARGENTINE COUP
NEW DECLASSIFIED DETAILS ON REPRESSION AND
U.S. SUPPORT FOR MILITARY DICTATORSHIP
Kissinger sought immediate support for the new
military regime in spite of staff warnings on bloodshed
22,000 people murdered or disappeared by military between
1975 and 1978 according to secret Chilean intelligence report
Secret Argentine documents record Operation Condor kidnappings
and disappearances carried out by military intelligence Battalion 601. (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB185/index.htm)
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Relatives continue to search for the tens of thousands of disappeared in Argentina.Washington, D.C., March 23, 2006 - On the eve of the 30th anniversary of the military coup in Argentina, the National Security Archive posted a series of declassified U.S. documents and, for the first time, secret documents from Southern Cone intelligence agencies recording detailed evidence of massive atrocities committed by the military junta in Argentina. The documents include a formerly secret transcript of Henry Kissinger's staff meeting during which he ordered immediate U.S. support for the new military regime, and Defense and State Department reports on the ensuing repression. The Archive has also obtained internal memoranda and cables from the infamous Argentina intelligence unit, Battalion 601, as well as the Chilean secret police agency, known as DINA, which was secretly collaborating with the military in Buenos Aires.
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Admiral Emilio Massera and Junta chief General Rafael Videla.The documents record Washington's initial reaction to the military takeover. "I do want to encourage them. I don't want to give the sense that they're harassed by the United States," Secretary of State Kissinger ordered his staff after his assistants warned him that the junta would initiate a bloodbath following the coup. According to the transcript, Kissinger's top deputy on Latin America, William Rogers, told him two days after the coup that "we've got to expect a fair amount of repression, probably a good deal of blood, in Argentina before too long."
State Department cables, including some obtained previously by the Argentine newspaper, Clarin, show that U.S. officials had prior knowledge of coup plotting. More than a week before the coup, Ambassador Robert Hill sent Assistant Secretary Rogers a secret cable reporting that the commander of the Navy, Admiral Emilio Massera, had requested that the U.S. embassy "indicate to him one or two reputable public relations firms in the U.S. which might handle the problem for a future military government." Massera, according to the cable, promised that the Argentine military would "not follow the lines of the Pinochet takeover in Chile," and would "try to proceed within the law and with full respect for human rights."
But although the military repression in Argentina drew less international attention than the Pinochet regime's in Chile, it far exceeded it in terms of human rights violations. By mid 1978, according to a secret cable from the DINA station in Buenos Aires, posted here publicly for the first time, the secret police battalion 601 had "counted 22,000 between dead and disappeared, from 1975 to the present date [July 1978]." Thousands of additional victims were killed between 1978 and 1983 when the military was forced from power.
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A secret Argentine military document revealed here for the first time records the capture of Jorge Zaffaroni and his wife Maria, who were never seen again. (Source: Sin Olvido)Some of the victims were Uruguayans living in Buenos Aires at the time of the coup. A secret Argentine intelligence report records an operation to kidnap two Uruguayan citizens who were then disappeared. "From: State Intelligence Secretariat. To: Intelligence Battalion 601... Primary objective: Jorge Zaffaroni [and] Maria Zaffaroni, Results: Positive..." reads the military form dated September 29, 1976. Other records posted today provide details on efforts to wipe out a Uruguayan resistance group known as OPR-33 through Operation Condor, a network of Southern Cone secret police services that worked together to eliminate opponents of their regimes.
"For the sake of history, memory and justice, it is extremely important that this kind of information from the Argentine intelligence and security services be made public and rigorously analyzed," said Professor Marcos Novaro, who directs the political history project at the University of Buenos Aires.
"It is clear from Secretary of State Henry Kissinger's reaction that Argentina had to pay in blood for the sake of stability in the region," said Archive analyst Carlos Osorio. "The U.S. knowingly supported a national security doctrine that disregarded all civilized norms and any adherence to human rights, and tens of thousands of Argentines paid the ultimate price."
The National Security Archive
KISSINGER TO ARGENTINES ON DIRTY WAR:
"THE QUICKER YOU SUCCEED THE BETTER"
Newly declassified documents show Secretary of State
gave green light to junta, Contradict official line that
Argentines "heard only what [they] wanted to hear."
While military dictatorship committed massive
human rights abuses in 1976, Kissinger advised
"If you can finish before Congress gets back, the better."
(http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB104/index.htm)
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U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger meets with Argentine foreign minister, Admiral Cesar Augusto Guzzetti, on October 7, 1976 (Photo courtesy of Clarín.com (Argentina),Washington, D.C., 4 December 2003 - Newly declassified State Department documents obtained by the National Security Archive under the Freedom of Information Act show that in October 1976, Secretary of State Henry Kissinger and high ranking U.S. officials gave their full support to the Argentine military junta and urged them to hurry up and finish the "dirty war" before the U.S. Congress cut military aid. A post-junta truth commission found that the Argentine military had "disappeared" at least 10,000 Argentines in the so-called "dirty war" against "subversion" and "terrorists" between 1976 and 1983; human rights groups in Argentina put the number at closer to 30,000.
The new documents are two memoranda of conversations (memcons) with the visiting Argentine foreign minister, Admiral Cesar Augusto Guzzetti - one with Kissinger himself on October 7, 1976. At the time, the U.S. Congress was about to approve sanctions against the Argentine regime because of widespread reports of human rights abuses by the junta.
The memcons contradict the official line given by Assistant Secretary of State Harry Shlaudeman in response to complaints from the U.S. ambassador in Buenos Aires that Guzzetti had come back "euphoric" and "convinced that there is no real problem with the USG" over human rights. Schlaudeman cabled, "Guz;etti [sic] heard only what he wanted to hear."
According to the memcon's verbatim transcript, Secretary of State Kissinger interrupted the Foreign Minister's report on the situation in Argentina and said "Look, our basic attitude is that we would like you to succeed. I have an old-fashioned view that friends ought to be supported. What is not understood in the United States is that you have a civil war. We read about human rights problems but not the context. The quicker you succeed the better... The human rights problem is a growing one. Your Ambassador can apprise you. We want a stable situation. We won't cause you unnecessary difficulties. If you can finish before Congress gets back, the better. Whatever freedoms you could restore would help."
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One day earlier, on October 6, 1976, Admiral Guzzetti had been told by Acting Secretary of State Charles W. Robinson "that it is possible to understand the requirement to be tough." But Robinson also remarked on the "question of timing of the relaxation of extreme countersubversion measures" before Congress voted sanctions on Argentina. The memcon with Robinson goes on to note that "[t]he Acting Secretary said... The problem is that the United States is an idealistic and moral country and its citizens have great difficulty in comprehending the kinds of problems faced by Argentina today. There is a tendency to apply our moral standards abroad and Argentina must understand the reaction of Congress with regard to loans and military assistance. The American people, right or wrong, have the perception that today there exists in Argentina a pattern of gross violations of human rights."
Beginning in September 1976, the U.S. ambassador to Argentina, Robert Hill, had been pressing the Argentine military on human rights issues, amid a dramatic increase in the number of victims being disappeared, killed and tortured, including half a dozen American citizens. The Argentine generals dismissed Ambassador Hill's demarches, according to previously declassified cables written by Hill, and alluded to an understanding with high ranking U.S. officials "that the USG's overriding concern was not human rights but rather that GOA 'get it over quickly.'"
After Admiral Guzzetti returned from Washington, Ambassador Hill wrote "a sour note" from Buenos Aires complaining that he could hardly present human rights demarches if the Argentine Foreign Minister did not hear the same message from the Secretary of State. Guzzetti had told Hill that "[t]he Secretary... had urged Argentina 'to be careful' and had said that if the terrorist problem was over by December or January, he (the Secretary) believed serious problems could be avoided in the U.S..." Wrote Ambassador Hill, "Guzzetti went to U.S. fully expecting to hear some strong, firm, direct warnings on his government's human rights practices, rather than that, he has returned in a state of jubilation, convinced that there is no real problem with the USG over that issue."
Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs Harry W. Shlaudeman, who attended both the Kissinger and the Robinson meetings with Guzzetti, responded to Hill on behalf of Kissinger with a cable that directly misrepresented the actual conversations recorded in the memcons: "As in other circumstances you have undoubtedly en countered in your diplomatic career, Guz;etti [sic] heard only what he wanted to hear. He was told in detail how strongly opinion in this country has reacted against reports of abuses by the security forces in Argentina and the nature of the threat this poses to argentine interests... [T]he USG regards most seriously Argentina's international commitments to protect and promote fundamental human rights. There should be no mistake on that score..."
A final note from Hill shows that the Ambassador was appeased by the strong response from Washington. "Your message on Guzzetti's visit was most helpful. It is reassuring to have chapter and verse on what Guzzetti was told. We will keep after him and other GOA officials," Hill wrote. There is no evidence that Ambassador Hill ever saw the actual transcripts of the conversations with Guzzetti included here.
The two new memorandums of conversation (memcons) were not among the 4700 documents released in August 2002 by the Argentina Declassification Project of the U.S. Department of State. Much to the credit of Secretary of State Colin Powell and his predecessor, Madeleine Albright, who began the project, that release made front page news in Argentina, contributed dramatically to civilian control of the military, provided documentation on military decisionmaking now being used in dozens of court cases related to the "dirty war," and for some of the families of the "disappeared," gave the first available evidence of what had actually happened to their loved ones.
The State Department project, however, did not included documents from the often-vigorous internal U.S. policy debates over Argentina; and neither the CIA nor the Pentagon participated in the declassification effort. The National Security Archive obtained the new memcons in November 2003 in response to a Freedom of Information Act request filed with the Department of State in November 2002, seeking to fill in the missing pieces from the larger release.
In the following selection of documents, the memoranda of conversations Guzzetti had at the Department of State are preceded by two cables from Ambassador Hill reporting on the fruitless human rights demarches he had made to Admiral Guzzetti and President Jorge Rafael Videla in September, together with the contemporaneous Department of State intelligence analysis of the counter-terrorism practices of Argentine military, and the testimony of an American citizen tortured by the Argentine security forces.
The torture report was written after an interview with the victim on October 4, 1976 by the same U.S. official, Fernando Rondon, who served as the notetaker at the October 7, 1976 Kissinger-Guzzetti meeting.
correction, that is the interpretation of a guy of declassified documents. bunch of citations and no context. and with that cover and title, how am i supposed to not take ìt with a grain of salt?
nobody here is getting anything across, and i have no interest, so i'm just going to stop posting.
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 13, 2011, 07:59:48 PM
I would be impressed if he posted current documents. Otherwise, it's like saying that Germany is still being run by the Nazis because he uncovered some documents from 1939.
I'm guessing they're not as available to the public as these...or is that your point?
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 13, 2011, 07:33:22 PM
Quote from: chupacabras acheronsis on Apr 13, 2011, 07:21:51 PM
He's was old Decrepit Buffoon which often made things worse but he did what needed to be done.
Really? A fascist dictator installed by the CIA, that tortured and murdered tens of thousands of his own people did what needed to be done?
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US Imperialism and support for General Pinochet's tryanny in your country - Chile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00kQorWVIsw#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00kQorWVIsw#ws)
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB212/pino_cover250.jpg
Inquiry reveals that the real enemy of the United States is independant nationalism, particularly when it threatens to become a "contagious example", to borrow Henry Kissinger's characterization of social democracy in Chile, a "virus" that, he feared, might "infect" other countries as far away as the southern Europe. The source of the contagion therefore had to be destroyed, as it was.
In October 1970, President Richard Nixon was cursing in the Oval Office about the Social Democratic president of Chile, Salvador Allende. "That son of a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)!" said Richard Nixon on 15 October. "That son of a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*) Allende – we're going to smash him." A few weeks later he explained why.
From the National Security Archives declassified US documents: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20001113/701106.pdf)
QuoteIf Chile moves as we expect and is able to get away with it -- our public posture is important here -- it gives courage to others who are sitting on the fence in Latin America.
I will never agree with the policy of downgrading the military in Latin America.They are power centers subject to our influence. The others (the intellectuals) are not subject to our influence. We want to give them some help. Brazil and Argentina particularly. Build them up with consultation. I want Defense to move on this. We'll go for more in the budget if necessary.
The main concern in Chile is that [Allende] can consolidate himself, and the picture projected to the world will be his success ... If we let the potential leaders in South America think they can move like Chile and have it both ways, we will be in trouble.
No impression should be permitted in Latin America that they can get away with this, that it's safe to go this way. All over the world it's too much the fashion to kick us around. We are not sensitive but our reactions must be coldly proper. We cannot fail to show our displeasure. We can't put up with "Give Americans hell but pray they don't go away." There must be times when we should and must react, not because we want to hurt them but to show we can't be kicked around.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB135/phone350.jpg
Furthermore, from the National Security Archives declassified US documents: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB110/index.htm)
QuoteKissinger personally requested an hour to brief Nixon on November 5 in preparation for a National Security Council meeting to discuss Chile strategy the next day. The briefing paper records his threat perception of an Allende government as a model for other countries. As Kissinger informed the president: "The example of a successful elected Marxist government in Chile would surely have an impact on-an even precedent value for-other parts of the world, especially in Italy; the imitative spread of similar phenomena elsewhere would in turn significantly affect the world balance and our own position in it."
Thus, President Richard Nixon ordered the CIA to destroy Chile's left leaning populist democracy and establish and fascist totalitarian state which would protect "our postition" in the "world balance" by teaching others that progressive economic reforms would not be tolerated.
The United States pursued a two-track policy toward Allende's Chile. At the overt level, Washington was frosty, especially after the nationalization of the copper mines. The government of President Richard M. Nixon launched an economic blockade conjunction with U.S. multinationals (ITT, Kennecott, Anaconda) and banks (Inter-American Development Bank, World Bank).
The US squeezed the Chilean economy by terminating financial assistance and blocking loans from multilateral organizations. But during 1972 and 1973 the US increased aid to the military, a sector unenthusiastic toward the Allende government. The United States also increased training Chilean military personnel in the United States and Panama.
On Tuesday, September 11, 1973, a date often called "the other 9/11" in Latin America, Pinochet's forces attacked the Chilean presidential palace. Salvador Allende, the democratically elected president, died in the palace, apparently by his own hand, because he was unwilling to surrender to the assault that demolished Latin America's oldest, most vibrant democracy and established a regime of torture and repression.
From the National Security Archives declassified US documents: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm)
QuotePresident Richard Nixon had ordered the CIA to "make the economy scream" in Chile to "prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him."
These documents include:
** Cables written by U.S. Ambassador Edward Korry after Allende's election, detailing conversations with President Eduardo Frei on how to block the president-elect from being inaugurated. The cables contain detailed descriptions and opinions on the various political forces in Chile, including the Chilean military, the Christian Democrat Party, and the U.S. business community.
** CIA memoranda and reports on "Project FUBELT"--the codename for covert operations to promote a military coup and undermine Allende's government. The documents, including minutes of meetings between Henry Kissinger and CIA officials, CIA cables to its Santiago station, and summaries of covert action in 1970, provide a clear paper trail to the decisions and operations against Allende's government .
** National Security Council strategy papers which record efforts to "destabilize" Chile economically, and isolate Allende's government diplomatically, between 1970 and 1973.
** State Department and NSC memoranda and cables after the coup, providing evidence of human rights atrocities under the new military regime led by General Pinochet.
More declassified documents on the CIA-military coup in Chile from the National Security Archive: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20001113/)
QuoteAmong the key documents declassified that shed considerable light on the history of U.S. involvement in Chile, and the repression of the Pinochet regime are:
*Files on National Security Council and cabinet meetings chaired by Richard Nixon recording his administration's commitment to "do everything we can to bring Allende down" after covert efforts to foment a coup to prevent his inauguration failed. (Dozens of other White House, CIA and NSC records, used by Frank Church's special committee reports on Chile in 1975, have been declassified for the first time.)
*U.S. government efforts to avoid pressuring the Pinochet regime on human rights atrocities.
The official death toll for the coup is 3,200; the actual toll is commonly estimated at double that figure. An official inquiry 30 years after the coup found evidence of approximately 28,000 cases of torture during the Pinochet regime.
Reuters reports: (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN20304380)
QuoteNearly 3,200 people died or disappeared in political violence during the 1973-1990 dictatorship, according to government accounts. The vast majority were killed by Pinochet's forces and by his infamous secret police in clandestine detention centers. Another 28,000 were tortured, according to official figures.
Further more the CIA actively supported the Junta and his secret police from 1973-1990.
From the National Security Archives declassified US documents:
(http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20000919/)
QuoteAfter twenty-seven years of withholding details about covert activities following the 1973 military coup in Chile, the CIA released a report yesterday acknowledging its close relations with General Augusto Pinochet's violent regime. The report, "CIA Activities in Chile," revealed for the first time that the head of the Chile's feared secret police, DINA, was a paid CIA asset in 1975, and that CIA contacts continued with him long after he dispatched his agents to Washington D.C. to assassinate former Chilean Ambassador Orlando Letelier and his 25-year old American associate, Ronni Karpen Moffitt.
"CIA actively supported the military Junta after the overthrow of Allende," the report states. "Many of Pinochet's officers were involved in systematic and widespread human rights abuses....Some of these were contacts or agents of the CIA or US military."
Many of Pinochet's henchmen trained at the US Army School of the Americas in Fort Benning Georgia.
From declassified US documents obtained by School of the Americas Watch: (http://www.soaw.org/article.php?id=234)
QuoteGeneral Augusto Pinochet was not a graduate of the School of the Americas; yet his influence is held in high esteem. in 1991, visitors could view a note from Pinochet, and a ceremonial sword donated by him, on display in the office of the Commandant (Charles Call, MH, 8/9/93)
Graduates of the School of the Americas have also comprised 1 out of every 7 members of the command staff of DINA, the notorious Chilean intelligence agency responsible for many of the worst human rights atrocities during the Pinochet years.
What is your point?
That CTRL-C, CTRL-V roolz, lol
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 13, 2011, 08:40:52 PM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 13, 2011, 07:59:48 PM
I would be impressed if he posted current documents. Otherwise, it's like saying that Germany is still being run by the Nazis because he uncovered some documents from 1939.
I'm guessing they're not as available to the public as these...or is that your point?
Not a good guess. The point is that he's trying to put together various unrelated things to make a pattern; something that garden-variety conspiracy theorists try to do.
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 01:04:45 AM
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 13, 2011, 08:40:52 PM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 13, 2011, 07:59:48 PM
I would be impressed if he posted current documents. Otherwise, it's like saying that Germany is still being run by the Nazis because he uncovered some documents from 1939.
I'm guessing they're not as available to the public as these...or is that your point?
Not a good guess. The point is that he's trying to put together various unrelated things to make a pattern; something that garden-variety conspiracy theorists try to do.
Naturally. Though I still don't understand what he's talking about.
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 14, 2011, 01:05:47 AM
Naturally. Though I still don't understand what he's talking about.
Neither does he, but he will teach us.
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 01:08:21 AM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 14, 2011, 01:05:47 AM
Naturally. Though I still don't understand what he's talking about.
Neither does he, but he will teach us.
I love learning.
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 14, 2011, 01:08:59 AM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 01:08:21 AM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 14, 2011, 01:05:47 AM
Naturally. Though I still don't understand what he's talking about.
Neither does he, but he will teach us.
I love learning.
Then keep away from this thread.
;)
i think war is bad.
pussy
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 01:04:45 AM
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 13, 2011, 08:40:52 PM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 13, 2011, 07:59:48 PM
I would be impressed if he posted current documents. Otherwise, it's like saying that Germany is still being run by the Nazis because he uncovered some documents from 1939.
I'm guessing they're not as available to the public as these...or is that your point?
Not a good guess. The point is that he's trying to put together various unrelated things to make a pattern; something that garden-variety conspiracy theorists try to do.
Ah.
Brings back memories of South Park's episode on UFO conspiracies.
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 01:04:45 AM
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 13, 2011, 08:40:52 PM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 13, 2011, 07:59:48 PM
I would be impressed if he posted current documents. Otherwise, it's like saying that Germany is still being run by the Nazis because he uncovered some documents from 1939.
I'm guessing they're not as available to the public as these...or is that your point?
Not a good guess. The point is that he's trying to put together various unrelated things to make a pattern; something that garden-variety conspiracy theorists try to do.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.yuku.com%2Fimage%2Fgif%2Fdf236dd74e5e930e2493dc9380a8d9fba678f3de.gif&hash=e1170151c84adf09997c640afd5ae32d65326c78)
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 13, 2011, 06:35:44 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 13, 2011, 06:15:28 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 13, 2011, 06:13:19 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 13, 2011, 06:07:52 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 13, 2011, 06:06:18 PM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 13, 2011, 05:57:40 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 13, 2011, 05:55:37 PM
Wait, what is this even about?
Someone who hate the US.
^^
This an authoritarian way of thinking. Anyone who critizes their government's policies hates their country. This is by definition "unamerican". No secret police here is forcing you to be obediant. North Korea couldnt've done it better.
I really don't know how to respond. Are you hating the US or is it something else?
The entire premise of your statement is unamerican. "Hating the US"? You might find this type of rethoric in totalitarian states. It's like this man. Every time he challenges me with nonsonse I will respond with more.
So you hate the US?
No, I hate covert and overt colonial wars. Take what's happenning now for example. The Obama team overthrew the democratically elected government of Honduras in 2009 and installed a fascist regime. They attempted to overthrow the democratically elected government of Equador in 2010, and they have been working to overthrow the democratically elected government in Venezuela. They established military bases in Colombia, right on the boarder of Venezuela. Various NGO's like the NED, USAID, the NDI, and the IRI are currently in Bolivia, Equador, Argentina, Venezuela, and Nicaragua trying to organize military coup's because these "nationalist" governments "respond" to the "increasing popular demand for immediate improvement in the low living standards of the masses, with the result that most Latin American governments are under intense domestic political pressures to increase production and to diversify their economies."
How exactly is this not hating on the U.S.? You're running your mouth about how evil their actions are.
Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 14, 2011, 02:03:39 AM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 13, 2011, 06:35:44 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 13, 2011, 06:15:28 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 13, 2011, 06:13:19 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 13, 2011, 06:07:52 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 13, 2011, 06:06:18 PM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 13, 2011, 05:57:40 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 13, 2011, 05:55:37 PM
Wait, what is this even about?
Someone who hate the US.
^^
This an authoritarian way of thinking. Anyone who critizes their government's policies hates their country. This is by definition "unamerican". No secret police here is forcing you to be obediant. North Korea couldnt've done it better.
I really don't know how to respond. Are you hating the US or is it something else?
The entire premise of your statement is unamerican. "Hating the US"? You might find this type of rethoric in totalitarian states. It's like this man. Every time he challenges me with nonsonse I will respond with more.
So you hate the US?
No, I hate covert and overt colonial wars. Take what's happenning now for example. The Obama team overthrew the democratically elected government of Honduras in 2009 and installed a fascist regime. They attempted to overthrow the democratically elected government of Equador in 2010, and they have been working to overthrow the democratically elected government in Venezuela. They established military bases in Colombia, right on the boarder of Venezuela. Various NGO's like the NED, USAID, the NDI, and the IRI are currently in Bolivia, Equador, Argentina, Venezuela, and Nicaragua trying to organize military coup's because these "nationalist" governments "respond" to the "increasing popular demand for immediate improvement in the low living standards of the masses, with the result that most Latin American governments are under intense domestic political pressures to increase production and to diversify their economies."
How exactly is this not hating on the U.S.? You're running your mouth about how evil their actions are.
Makes me a little uncomfortable to be honest. It almost seems like a hit against Americans as well. :-\
As I said earlier, less than half of US voters actually voted for the government.
It's pretty obvious that if you have a crack the leaders of a nation, it doesn't automatically equate to having a crack at everyone who comes from that nation.
Quote from: SM on Apr 14, 2011, 02:30:29 AM
As I said earlier, less than half of US voters actually voted for the government.
It's pretty obvious that if you have a crack the leaders of a nation, it doesn't automatically equate to having a crack at everyone who comes from that nation.
I was part that didn't vote. :P
AH-HAH! THEN WE HAVE FOUND THE REAL CULPRIT!!!
Quote from: SM on Apr 14, 2011, 02:31:47 AM
AH-HAH! THEN WE HAVE FOUND THE REAL CULPRIT!!!
Damn, I have been discovered. ;D
Well, (Attention W)Hor(e)hey should be home from work soon to explain things.
I hope so. I don't know what to be afraid of when he's not around.
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 02:58:54 AM
Well, (Attention W)Hor(e)hey should be home from work soon to explain things.
Good. I want some clarity with this issue.
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 14, 2011, 03:00:31 AM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 02:58:54 AM
Well, (Attention W)Hor(e)hey should be home from work soon to explain things.
Good. I want some clarity with this issue.
That's a pretty tall order...
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 03:03:36 AM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 14, 2011, 03:00:31 AM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 02:58:54 AM
Well, (Attention W)Hor(e)hey should be home from work soon to explain things.
Good. I want some clarity with this issue.
That's a pretty tall order...
It might be, but I want to see it attempted.
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 14, 2011, 03:04:18 AM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 03:03:36 AM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 14, 2011, 03:00:31 AM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 02:58:54 AM
Well, (Attention W)Hor(e)hey should be home from work soon to explain things.
Good. I want some clarity with this issue.
That's a pretty tall order...
It might be, but I want to see it attempted.
These six pages are more than enough. We don't need to witness any more convolution.
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 03:06:15 AM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 14, 2011, 03:04:18 AM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 03:03:36 AM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 14, 2011, 03:00:31 AM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 02:58:54 AM
Well, (Attention W)Hor(e)hey should be home from work soon to explain things.
Good. I want some clarity with this issue.
That's a pretty tall order...
It might be, but I want to see it attempted.
These six pages are more than enough. We don't need to witness any more convolution.
True. Very well, Let's see what he says.
Ghost Rider, damn you and your open-mindedness!
Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 14, 2011, 03:34:16 AM
Ghost Rider, damn you and your open-mindedness!
Blame the way I was raised. :laugh:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv338%2Fmaledoro%2FForums%2F02b58ba5.gif&hash=bb9a9de01ff7a5e27537d4bc037783c4dd6278db)
The case of El Salvador is perhaps the worst of them and it has a lot of competition. There's no shortage of information and hideous imagery on this history but it's one of the least known US interventions, probobly because it was mostly covert operations which lead to the mass slaughter of over 145,000 people - organizing peasents, trade unionists, Priests, Nuns, journalists, teachers, students, health care workers, human rights advocates, pro democracy movements etc. - just in the 70's, 80's, and early 90's by US-organized, trained, controlled, armed, and financed Death Squads under the guise of fighting communism and then the "war on drugs" immediatly after the Soviet economy collapsed.
The Mafia-Don and Master of the Hemisphere was determined to sustain/maintain the Neo-Nazi military junta and the exploitative economic and social order to prevent the "rot" - social and economic development - from spreading "infection" to countries of real concern to the rulers of much of the world. This will be the longest review of them all.
US Death Squad War in El Salvador 1962-1992
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gwu.edu%2F%7Ensarchiv%2FIMG%2Fnsa_sm.gif&hash=966957faa2d8586040ddfefcea337498487a2874)
PBS Frontline: US Death Squad Operations
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdCCUc6LdqY# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdCCUc6LdqY#)
WARNING: HIDEOUS AFTER 4:41
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0yL42r4aAE# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0yL42r4aAE#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja9nXs1tQ7Q# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja9nXs1tQ7Q#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf3jAVzdT3w# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf3jAVzdT3w#)
US War on Labor in El Salvador: Introduction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYvgWYLlSGA# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYvgWYLlSGA#)
US War on Labor in El Salvador: CIA Death Squad Killings and the US Strategy of "Draing the Sea"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfF9zD1OhAo# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfF9zD1OhAo#)
US War on Labor in El Salvador: CIA Death Squads Primarily Target Unions and Organizing Peasantshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypnZ-q4vEuc# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypnZ-q4vEuc#)
US Imperialism in El Salvador with "the Methods of Heinrich Himmler's Extermination Squads"For many years, repression, torture and murder were carried on in El Salvador by dictators installed and supported by the US, a matter of no interest here. The story was virtually never covered.
the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/1987/04/19/world/central-america-s-arms-buildup-the-risk-of-guns-without-butter.html?pagewanted=all) noted that:
QuoteIn El Salvador, the Kennedy Administration backed economic and political development under the Alliance for Progress and counterinsurgency measures under the tutelage of the Green Berets and the C.I.A.
The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/1987/10/22/world/salvador-divided-over-aid-to-police.html?pagewanted=1) added that:
QuoteIn El Salvador, American aid was used for police training in the 1950's and 1960's and many officers in the three branches of the police later became leaders of the right wing death squads that killed tens of thousands of people in the late 1970's and 1980's.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2526%2F3861289203_afe0a5ab8b.jpg&hash=3d93416dba4505bf0736bb3d99033abf1c2cc23a)
In 1962, Kennedy liberals shifted the mission in Latin American countries from "hemispheric defense" to "internal security" by assassination, torture, disappearance, and sometimes mass murder, which constituted one of the two major legacies of the Kennedy Administration to Latin America.
The meaning of "the era of counterinsurgency" and "internal security" is vividly described by Charles Maechling Jr., who led counter-insurgency and internal defense planning from 1961 to 1966, while in the State Department and is now an associate of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. In an article in the Los Angeles Times, he writes:
QuoteThe Los Angeles Times: Origins of the Crisis (http://books.google.com/books?ei=8rc7TMTmAoP78Aa--MynBg&ct=result&id=eKwuAQAAIAAJ&dq=In+their+endless+quest+for+%22stability%22+south+of+the+border%2C+U.S.+administrations+repeatedly+turn+a+blind+eye+to+the+rapacity+and+cruelty+of+the+Latin+American+military.+Not+until+1961%2C+however%2C+was+there+direct+complicity+%28as+opposed+to+occasional+direct+interventions%29+by+the+U.S.+government+in+aiding+domestic+repression+in+Latin+America.+In+that+year%2C+under+pressure+from+the+Pentagon%2C+the+Latin+American+military+role+was+changed+from+%22hemispheric+defense%22+to+%22internal+security%22%3B+US+assistance+programs+were+retooled+to+strengthen+the+hold+of+the+local+military+forces+over+there+own+people.&q=By+CHARLES+MAECHLING+JR.%3A+In+their+endless+quest+for+%22stability%22+south+of+the+border%2C+U.S.+administrations+repeatedly+turn+a+blind+eye+to+the+rapacity+and+cruelty+of+the+Latin+American+military.+Not+until+1961%2C+however%2C+was+there+direct+complicity+%28as+opposed+to+occasional+direct+interventions%29+by+the+U.S.+government+in+aiding+domestic+repression+in+Latin+America.+In+that+year%2C+under+pressure+from+the+Pentagon%2C+the+Latin+American+military+role+was+changed+from+%22hemispheric+defense%22+to+%22internal+security%22%3B+US+assistance+programs+were+retooled+to+strengthen+the+hold+of+the+local+military+forces+over+there+own+people.#search_anchor)
By CHARLES MAECHLING JR.
March 18, 1982
In their endless quest for "stability" south of the border, U.S. administrations repeatedly turn a blind eye to the rapacity and cruelty of the Latin American military. Not until 1961, however, was there direct complicity (as opposed to occasional direct interventions) by the U.S. government in aiding domestic repression in Latin America. In that year, under pressure from the Pentagon, the Latin American military role was changed from "hemispheric defense" to "internal security"; US assistance programs were retooled to strengthen the hold of the local military forces over there own people.
For 20 years, the Pentagon has lavished training and equipment on the Latin American military, both at bases in the United States and at the US Army School of the Americas in the former Panama Canal Zone. Under guise of "civic action" programs, Latin American officers have been encouraged to meddle in government and civillian affairs. There has been little screening to weed out the drug racketeers and war criminals, and no indoctrination in civilized standards of warfare.
Senior officers indistinguishable from the war criminals hanged at Nuremberg after World War II have passed through the Inter- American Defense College in Washington. Neither in training programs not thereafter does the Pentagon insist on compliance with the Geneva conventions regarding humane treatment of prisoners and non combatants. Equipment is given without strings.
For the United States, which lead the crusade against Nazi evil, to support the methods of Heinrich Himmler's extermination squads is an outrage.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi97.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl226%2FHorhey420%2Fchimage.jpg&hash=90421ee94860b9933bcbb56a23a054b003c69941)
In the 1984 article entitled "Behind the Death Squads: An Exclusive Report on the U.S. Role in El Salvador's Official Terror", (http://books.google.com/books?id=2n_vakG8NYIC&pg=PA444&dq=Early+in+the+1960s,+during+the+Kennedy+Administration,+agents+of+the+U.S.+Government+in+El+Salvador+set+up+two+official+security+organizations+that+killed+thousands+of+peasants+and+suspected+leftists+over+the+next+fifteen+years.+These+organizations,+guided+by+American+operatives,+developed+into+the+paramilitary+apparatus+that+came+to+be+known+as+the+Salvadoran+Death+Squads.++Today,+even+as+the+Reagan+Administration+publicly+condemns+the+Death+Squads,+the+CIA%E2%80%94in+violation+of+U.S.+law%E2%80%94continues+to+provide+training,+support,+and+intelligence+to+security+forces+directly+involved+in+Death+Squad+activity.++Evidence+of+U.S.+involvement+covers+a+broad+spectrum+of+activity.+Over+the+past+twenty+years,+officials+of+the+State+Department,+the+Central+Intelligence+Agency,+and+the+U.S.+armed+forces+have:&hl=en&ei=QqapTYbvK4StgQedv-DzBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Early%20in%20the%201960s%2C%20during%20the%20Kennedy%20Administration%2C%20agents%20of%20the%20U.S.%20Government%20in%20El%20Salvador%20set%20up%20two%20official%20security%20organizations%20that%20killed%20thousands%20of%20peasants%20and%20suspected%20leftists%20over%20the%20next%20fifteen%20years.%20These%20organizations%2C%20guided%20by%20American%20operatives%2C%20developed%20into%20the%20paramilitary%20apparatus%20that%20came%20to%20be%20known%20as%20the%20Salvadoran%20Death%20Squads.%20%20Today%2C%20even%20as%20the%20Reagan%20Administration%20publicly%20condemns%20the%20Death%20Squads%2C%20the%20CIA%E2%80%94in%20violation%20of%20U.S.%20law%E2%80%94continues%20to%20provide%20training%2C%20support%2C%20and%20intelligence%20to%20security%20forces%20directly%20involved%20in%20Death%20Squad%20activity.%20%20Evidence%20of%20U.S.%20involvement%20covers%20a%20broad%20spectrum%20of%20activity.%20Over%20the%20past%20twenty%20years%2C%20officials%20of%20the%20State%20Department%2C%20the%20Central%20Intelligence%20Agency%2C%20and%20the%20U.S.%20armed%20forces%20have%3A&f=false)award winning investigative journalist Allan Nairn revealed that:
QuoteEarly in the 1960s, during the Kennedy Administration, agents of the U.S. Government in El Salvador set up two official security organizations that killed thousands of peasants and suspected leftists over the next fifteen years. These organizations, guided by American operatives, developed into the paramilitary apparatus that came to be known as the Salvadoran Death Squads.
Today, even as the Reagan Administration publicly condemns the Death Squads, the CIA—in violation of U.S. law—continues to provide training, support, and intelligence to security forces directly involved in Death Squad activity.
Evidence of U.S. involvement covers a broad spectrum of activity. Over the past twenty years, officials of the State Department, the Central Intelligence Agency, and the U.S. armed forces have:
• conceived and organized ORDEN, the rural paramilitary and intelligence network described by Amnesty International as a movement designed "to use clandestine terror against government opponents." Out of ORDEN grew the notorious Mano Blanco, the White Hand, which a former U.S. ambassador to El Salvador, Raul H. Castro, has called "nothing less than the birth of the Death Squads";
• conceived and organized ANSESAL, the elite presidential intelligence services that gathered files on Salvadoran dissidents and, in the words of one U.S. official, relied on Death Squads as "the operative arm of intelligence gathering";
• enlisted General Jose Alberto "Chele" Medrano, the founder of ORDEN and ANSESAL, as a CIA agent; Described by Jose Napoleon Duarte as "the father of the Death Squads, the chief assassin of them all," he was awarded a silver medal by President Johnson "in recognition of exceptionally meritorious service."
• trained leaders of ORDEN in surveillance techniques and use of automatic weapons, and carried some of these leaders on the CIA payroll;
• provided American technical and intelligence advisers who often worked directly with ANSESAL at its headquarters in the Casa Presidencial;
• supplied ANSESAL, the security forces, and the general staff with electronic, photographic, and personal surveillance of individuals who were later assassinated by Death Squads. According to Colonel Nicolas Carranza, director of the Salvadoran Treasury Police, such intelligence sharing by U.S. agencies continues to this day;
• kept key security officials – including Carranza, Medrano, and others – on the CIA payroll. Though the evidence is less conclusive about Major Roberto D'Aubuisson, presidential candidate of the right wing ARENA party, some of his close associates describe him as a former recipient of CIA funding;
• furnished intelligence files that D'Aubuisson used for a series of 1980 television broadcasts in which he denounced dozens of academics, trade unionists, peasant leaders, Christian Democrats, and members of the clergy as communists or guerrilla collaborators. Many of the individuals D'Aubuisson named in his television speeches were subsequently assassinated. The broadcasts launched D'Aubuisson's political career and marked the emergence of the paramilitary front which later became ARENA;
• instructed Salvadoran intelligence operatives in the use of investigative techniques, combat weapons, explosives, and interrogation methods that included, according to a former Treasury Police agent "instruction in methods of physical and psychological torture";
• and, in the last decade, violated the Foreign Assistance Act of 1974, which prohibits spending U.S. funds "to provide training or advice or provide any financial support for police, prisons, or other law enforcement forces for any foreign government or any program of internal intelligence or surveillance on behalf of any foreign government";
Nairn concludes that: (http://books.google.com/books?id=2n_vakG8NYIC&pg=PA460&dq=U.S.+complicity+in+the+dark+and+brutal+work+of+El+Salvador%E2%80%99s+Death+Squads+is+not+an+aberration.+Rather,+it+represents+a+basic,+bipartisan,+institutional+commitment+on+the+part+of+six+American+Administrations%E2%80%94a+commitment+to+guard+the+Salvadoran+regime+against+the+prospect+that+its+people+might+organize+in+ways+unfriendly+to+that+regime+or+the+United+States.&hl=en&ei=WrZQTMiBJcHflgeX2di7CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=U.S.%20complicity%20in%20the%20dark%20and%20brutal%20work%20of%20El%20Salvador%E2%80%99s%20Death%20Squads%20is%20not%20an%20aberration.%20Rather%2C%20it%20represents%20a%20basic%2C%20bipartisan%2C%20institutional%20commitment%20on%20the%20part%20of%20six%20American%20Administrations%E2%80%94a%20commitment%20to%20guard%20the%20Salvadoran%20regime%20against%20the%20prospect%20that%20its%20people%20might%20organize%20in%20ways%20unfriendly%20to%20that%20regime%20or%20the%20United%20States.&f=false)
QuoteU.S. complicity in the dark and brutal work of El Salvador's Death Squads is not an aberration. Rather, it represents a basic, bipartisan, institutional commitment on the part of six American Administrations—a commitment to guard the Salvadoran regime against the prospect that its people might organize in ways unfriendly to that regime or the United States.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcjrarchive.org%2Fimg%2Fposts%2FKeler21.jpg&hash=52461443eae2b900519b6a35dcaebfeee95c5bf2)
More from Allan Nairn's article: (http://books.google.com/books?id=2n_vakG8NYIC&pg=PA444&dq=Interviews+with+dozens+of+current+and+former+civilians,+and+official+American+sources+disclose+a+pattern+of+sustained+US+participation+in+building+and+managing+the+Salvadoran+security+apparatus+that+relies+on+Death+Squad+assassinations+as+its+principal+means+of+enforcement.&hl=en&ei=R_xZTJH4KYP58AbMktiXCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Interviews%20with%20dozens%20of%20current%20and%20former%20civilians%2C%20and%20official%20American%20sources%20disclose%20a%20pattern%20of%20sustained%20US%20participation%20in%20building%20and%20managing%20the%20Salvadoran%20security%20apparatus%20that%20relies%20on%20Death%20Squad%20assassinations%20as%20its%20principal%20means%20of%20enforcement.&f=false)
QuoteInterviews with dozens of current and former civilians, and official American sources disclose a pattern of sustained US participation in building and managing the Salvadoran security apparatus that relies on Death Squad assassinations as its principal means of enforcement.
By the early 1960's: (http://books.google.com/books?id=2n_vakG8NYIC&pg=PA446&dq=In+El+Salvador,+the+U.S.+State+Department,+the+CIA,+the+Green+Berets,+and+the+Agency+for+International+Development+(AID)+all+participated+in+the+effort+to+suppress+dissent.&hl=en&ei=ZCdbTLCXJIL78AbRk4jwAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=In%20El%20Salvador%2C%20the%20U.S.%20State%20Department%2C%20the%20CIA%2C%20the%20Green%20Berets%2C%20and%20the%20Agency%20for%20International%20Development%20(AID)%20all%20participated%20in%20the%20effort%20to%20suppress%20dissent.&f=false)
QuoteIn El Salvador, the U.S. State Department, the CIA, the Green Berets, and the Agency for International Development (AID) all participated in the effort to suppress dissent.
The United States was "developing within the civil security forces ... an investigative capability for detecting criminal and/or subversive individuals and organizations and neutralizing their activities," wrote Byron Eagle, director of the AID Public Safety Program, in a 1967 memo to his staff. "This requires a carefully integrated effort between the investigative element and the regular police, paramilitary or military force, operating separately or in conjuction with each other." Engle, himself a former CIA official, referred to thirty-three countries, including El Salvador, in which the Public Safety Program was operating.
The landmark event in the formation of the national security apparatus in El Salvador and the rest of Central America was the Declaration of San Jose, issued on March 19, 1963, at the conclusion of a meeting of six Central American presidents. "Communism is the chief obstacle to economic development in the Central American region," proclaimed President Kennedy, who had chaired the meeting.
The Declaration of San Jose triggered a series of follow-up meetings among Central American ministers of the interior, who held jurisdiction over police and internal security. These meetings - organized and run by the U.S. State Department with assistance from the CIA, AID, the Customs Burea, the Immigration Service, and the Justice Department - "were designed to develop ways of dealing with subversion," recalls William Bowdler, who represented the State Department at the sessions.
So far this lesson seems to be old, well known, information, out of context citations and bold assumptions and strained conclusions that draw them all together.
Sure, America has done some extremely objectionable things int he past (during a specific time of extreme tension), and may continue to do so as well (though your recent statement regarding the involvement in South America is half baked and overstated), in various ways (usually involving economic manipulation these days); however this can be said of literally any country, carried in scale relative to the country. Again, I also must reiterate that you are reaching conclusions about present day American government based off of information that no longer accurately correlates to modern America.
The conclusions you are reaching are without significant merit; especially to the original root of this "lesson," that the US election is essentially meaningless as each elected official continues some secret agenda.
Every government has a hidden agenda. I didn't think that was a secret. But as far as conspiracy theories go, think about this: they can't make their not-so secret plans come to fruition, never mind their secret plans.
Based on recent Wikileaks, it would seem their agendas weren't so hidden after all. All these supposed revelations coming to light about our government were generally met with "Yeah, so? Who DIDN'T know Kevin Rudd was a control freak?"
Part 2: The "Human Rights President"
By the late 1970s, the US government began to be concerned about a couple of things. One was that Somoza, the dictator of Nicaragua, was losing control. The US was losing a major base for its exercise of force in the region. A second danger was even more threatening. In El Salvador in the 1970s, there was a growth of what were called "popular organizations"-peasant associations, cooperatives, unions, Church-based Bible study groups that evolved into self-help groups, etc.
In the muted words of the State Department: (http://books.google.com/books?id=OMuojxkUk0UC&q=Faced+with+increasing+demands+for+social+change+in+the+1970s,+traditional+ruling+groups+continued+their+dominance+by+employing+electoral+fraud+and+repression.&dq=Faced+with+increasing+demands+for+social+change+in+the+1970s,+traditional+ruling+groups+continued+their+dominance+by+employing+electoral+fraud+and+repression.&hl=en&ei=OE9bTLPRJ8GB8gbAx63NAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg)
QuoteFaced with increasing demands for social change in the 1970s, traditional ruling groups continued their dominance by employing electoral fraud and repression.
The Oxford Companion to American Military History (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O126-ElSalvadorUSMltrynvlvmntn.html) explains that:
QuoteIn the late 1970s, various small left wing insurgent groups allied to "popular organizations" of peasants, students, and slum dwellers began challenging the military government.
-That raised the threat of democracy.
In December 1980, New York Times, reporter Raymond Bonner (http://books.google.com/books?ei=EapRTObGIYKKlwfUubmdBQ&ct=re%20sult&id=I9kWAAAAYAAJ&dq=Duarte%3A+Fifty+years+of+lies%2C+fifty+years+of+injustice%2C+fifty+years+of+frustration.+This+is+a+history+of+people+starving+to+death%2C+living+in+misery.+For+fifty+years+the+same+people+had+all+the+power%2C+all+the+money%2C+all+the+jobs%2C+all+the+education%2C+all+the+opportunities&q=Duarte%3A+Fifty+years+of+lies%2C+fifty+years+of+injustice%2C+fifty+years+of+frustration.+This+is+a+history+of+people+starving+to+death%2C+living+in+misery.+For+fifty+years+the+same+people+had+all+the+power%2C+all+the+money%2C+all+the+jobs%2C+all+the+education%2C+all+the+opportunities.+He+had+not+mentioned+the+Sandinistas+in+Nicaragua.+There+was+no+talk+of+the+Cold+War+or+the+Soviet+Union.+What+Duarte+was+saying+was+that+the+revolution+had+been+caused+and+fueled+by+the+conditions+in+El+Salvador.+) asked Jose Napoleon Duarte, who had just become president of the US-backed ruling junta, "why the guerrillas were in the hills". Duarte, responded with an answer that surprised Bonner:
QuoteFifty years of lies, fifty years of injustice, fifty years of frustration. This is a history of people starving to death, living in misery. For fifty years the same people had all the power, all the money, all the jobs, all the education, all the opportunities.
The response suprised Bonner who did not expect Duarte to offer any justification for the revolution. What suprised Bonner even more was "what he had not said":
QuoteHe had not mentioned the Sandinistas in Nicaragua. There was no talk of the Cold War or the Soviet Union. What Duarte was saying was that the revolution had been caused and fueled by the conditions in El Salvador.
In a speach in 1969, Duarte said: (http://"http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbo=1&tbs=bks%3A1&q=El+Salvador%3A+Central+America+in+the+new+Cold+War+United+States+policy+in+Latin+America+as+designed+to+maintain+the+Ibero-American+countries+in+a+condition+of+direct+dependence+upon+the+international+political+decisions+most+beneficial+to+the+United+States%2C+both+at+the+hemisphere+and+world+levels.+Thus+%5Bthe+North+Americans%5D+preach+to+us+of+democracy+while+everywhere+they+support+dictatorships&btnG=Search&aq=o&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=)
QuoteUS policy in Latin America was designed to maintain the Ibero-American countries in a condition of direct dependence upon the international political decisions most beneficial to the United States, both at the hemisphere and world levels. Thus [the North Americans] preach to us of democracy while everywhere they support dictatorships.
The World Bank (http://books.google.com/books?id=nRDuAAAAMAAJ&q=World+Bank:+Stabilisation+and+structural+adjustment+have+brought+magnificent+returns+to+the+rich%E2%80%94+in+a+continent+with+the+world's+most+unequal+distribution+of+income.+Failures+to+act+aggressively+on+poverty+will+likely+encourage+distributive+conflicts,+prompting+discontent+and+perhaps+even+a+return+to+populism,+dirigisme+and+chaos.&dq=World+Bank:+Stabilisation+and+structural+adjustment+have+brought+magnificent+returns+to+the+rich%E2%80%94+in+a+continent+with+the+world's+most+unequal+distribution+of+income.+Failures+to+act+aggressively+on+poverty+will+likely+encourage+distributive+conflicts,+prompting+discontent+and+perhaps+even+a+return+to+populism,+dirigisme+and+chaos.&hl=en&ei=vmI2TOW2HsG78gaB8NSiAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA) found that Latin America has "the most unequal income distribution in the world," and predicted "chaos" unless governments "act aggressively against poverty," which is truly appalling in its depth and scale:
Quotestabilisation and structural adjustment have brought magnificent returns to the rich— in a continent with the world's most unequal distribution of income. Failures to act aggressively on poverty will likely encourage distributive conflicts, prompting discontent and perhaps even a return to populism, dirigisme and chaos.
Overall US enforced authoritarian and corporate-state capitalist programs in El Salvador were described by one Salvadoran (http://books.google.com/books?id=mnuVgm-OtA4C&pg=PA161&dq=I+used+to+work+on+a+hasienda.+My+job+was+to+take+care+of+the+dueno's+%5Bowner's%5D+dogs.++I+gave+them+meat+and+bowls+of+milk,+food+that+I+couldn't+give+to+my+own+family.+When+the+dogs+were+sick,+I+%20took+them+to+the+veterinarian.+When+my+children+were+sick,+the+%5Bowner%5D+gave+me+his+sympathy,+but+no+medicine+as+they+died.+To+watch+your+children+die+in+sickness+and+hunger+while+you+can+do+nothing+is+violence+to+the+spirit.+We+have+suffered+that+silently+for+too+many+years.&hl=en&ei=wc84TN2oLIT78Aax282nBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false) this way in 1995:
QuoteI used to work on a hasienda. My job was to take care of the [owner's] dogs. I gave them meat and bowls of milk, food that I couldn't give to my own family. When the dogs were sick, I took them to the veterinarian. When my children were sick, the [owner] gave me his sympathy, but no medicine as they died. To watch your children die in sickness and hunger while you can do nothing is violence to the spirit. We have suffered that silently for too many years.
Ah, Venezuela...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.areyouscreening.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F11%2FParadiseFalls.jpg&hash=f76cb10698d4143dd9f71b6c4273a3fd7b84cd1d)
If it's posted on wikileaks, does that make it Canon?
:D
The Assassination of Archbishop Romero by US Army School of the Americas Graduateshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_5B3jpRQBI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_5B3jpRQBI#)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carmelite.org%2Fimages%2Farchbishop_oscar_romero.jpg&hash=777540f760ec2b1d808b8eca8ff2048f44ab60c7)
In February 1980, the Archbishop of El Salvador, Oscar Romero, (http://www.share-elsalvador.org/25anniv/romero-carter.htm) sent a letter to President Carter in which he wrote:
QuoteSan Salvador February 17, 1980
His Excellency
The President of the United States
Mr. Jimmy Carter
Dear Mr. President:
In the last few days, news has appeared in the national press that worries me greatly. According to the reports, your government is studying the possibility of economic and military support and assistance to the present government junta.
Because you are a Christian and because you have shown that you want to defend human rights, I venture to set forth for you my pastoral point of view in regard to this news and to make a specific request of you.
I am very concerned by the news that the government of the United States is planning to further El Salvador's arms race by sending military equipment and advisors to "train three Salvadoran battallions in logistics, communications, and intelligence." If this information from the papers is correct, instead of favoring greater justice and peace in El Salvador, your government's contribution will undoubtedly sharpen the injustice and the repression inflicted on the organized people, whose struggle has often been for respect for their most basic human rights.
The present government junta and, especially, the armed forces and security forces have unfortunately not demonstrated their capacity to resolve in practice the nation's serious political and structural problems. For the most part, they have resorted to repressive violence, producing a total of deaths and injuries much greater than under the previous military regime, whose systematic violation of huamn rights was reported by the Inter-American Commission on Huamn Rights.
The brutal form in which the security forces recently evicted and murdered the occupiers of the headquarters of the Christian Democratic Party, even though the junta and the party apparently did not authorize the operation, is an indication that the junta and the Christian Democrats do not govern the country, but that political power is in the hands of unscrupulous military officers who know only how to repress the people and favor the interests of the Salvadoran oligarchy.
If it is true that last November a "group of six Americans was in El Salvador...providing $200,000 in gas masks and flak jackets and teaching how to use them against demonstrators," you ought to be informed that it is evident that since the security forces, with increased personal protection and efficiency, have even more violently repressed the people, using deadly weapons.
For this reason, given that as a Salvadoran and archbishop of the archdiocese of San Salvador, I have an obligation to see that faith and justice reign in my country, I ask you, if you truly want to defend human rights: to forbid that military aid be given to the Salvadoran government; to guarantee that your government will not intervene directly or indirectly, with military, economic, diplomatic, or other pressures, in determining the destiny of the Salvadoran people;
In these moments, we are living through a grave economic and political crisis in our country, but it is certain that increasingly the people are awakening and organizing and have begun to prepare themselves to manage and be responsible for the future of El Salvador, as the only ones capable of overcoming the crisis.
It would be unjust and deplorable for foreign powers to intervene and frustrate the Salvadoran people, to repress them and keep them from deciding autonomously the economic and political course that our nation should follow. It would be to violate a right that the Latin American bishops, meeting at Puebla, recognized publicly when we spoke of "the legitimate self-determination of our peoples, which allows them to organize according to their own spirit and the course of their history and to cooperate in a new international order" (Puebla, 505).
I hope that your religious sentiments and your feelings for the defense of human rights will move you to accept my petition, thus avoiding greater bloodshed in this suffering country.
Sincerely,
Oscar A. Romero
Archbishop
Hardly news to Washington, needless to say. Archbishop Romero often spoke critically of the US, which supported the right-wing government of El Salvador and those of other Latin American countries in their so-called "dirty wars", organizing, training, arming, advising, and funding military, paramilitary, and and police forces.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_xwbMNak2Cy8%2FRgV9vaSut0I%2FAAAAAAAAAwY%2FdAiRIN1jY4g%2Fs1600%2FRomero%252B9LR.jpg&hash=b76f40e3ee00dd14ea8e8210897800fb0579a4a8)
A few weeks later, Archbishop Romero was assassinated (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/file_on_4/4376733.stm) while saying mass by U.S.-backed forces, and then the U.S. carried out a major war against the Catholic Church.
The UN Truth Commission (http://onlineministries.creighton.edu/CollaborativeMinistry/truth-com.html) in 1993 concluded that:
QuoteThe Commission finds that Major Roberto D'Aubuisson ordered the assassination of the Archbishop and that Army Capt. Eduardo Avila and former Capt. Alvaro Saravia, as well as Fernando Sagrera played an active role in the assassination. Major Roberto D'Aubuisson is cited for organizing death squads and ordering the murder of Archbishop Romero.
Three of the assassins - including Major Roberto D'Aubuisson - studied at the notorious US Army School of the Americas (http://www.soaw.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=238), a US military college in Fort Benning, Georgia, which for decades taught counter-insurgency to more than 60,000 cadets from Latin American regimes. It was renamed in 2001 after a series of scandals, including the discovery there of stacks of "torture and execution" manuals. (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-793827.html)
US Support for NeoNazi Death Squad Leaderhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8Jdc4Wj5M8# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8Jdc4Wj5M8#)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.static.flickr.com%2F162%2F388076310_391e59d735_s.jpg&hash=8e5463414adef95d0933cba7c1c8d5a3c4d94814)
The Neo-Nazi - Major Roberto D'Aubuisson was "leader for-life" of the ARENA party (party of the death squads), which governed El Salvador untill recently; members of the party, like Salvadoran president Alfredo Cristiani, had to take a blood oath of loyalty to him. His death squad network's slogan was, "Be a Patriot! Kill a Priest."
He was considered to be the most notorious torturer and Death Squad leader in El Salvador; he was described by Robert White, former U.S. Ambassador to El Salvador, as a "pathological killer," and was widely known as "Major Soplete" (i.e., "Major Blowtorch"). The Major was Washington's dirty secret in El Salvador.
In the 1984 article entitled "Behind the Death Squads: An Exclusive Report on the U.S. Role in El Salvador's Official Terror", award winning investigative journalist, Allan Nairn (http://books.google.com/books?id=2n_vakG8NYIC&pg=PA445&dq=furnished+intelligence+files+that+D%E2%80%99Aubuisson+used+for+a+series+of+1+980+television+broadcasts+in+which+he+denounced+dozens+of+academics,+trade+unionists,+peasant+leaders,+Christian+Democrats,+and+members+of+the+clergy+as+communists+or+guerrilla+collaborators.+Many+of+the+individuals+D%E2%80%99Aubuisson+named+in+his+television+speeches+were+subsequently+assassinated.+The+broadcasts+launched+D%E2%80%99Aubuisson%E2%80%99s+political+career+and+marked+the+emergence+of+the+paramilitary+front+which+later+became+ARENA&hl=en&ei=6VRbTJvTE8L58AaA4sWCAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=furnished%20intelligence%20files%20that%20D%E2%80%99Aubuisson%20used%20for%20a%20series%20of%201%20980%20television%20broadcasts%20in%20which%20he%20denounced%20dozens%20of%20academics%2C%20trade%20unionists%2C%20peasant%20leaders%2C%20Christian%20Democrats%2C%20and%20members%20of%20the%20clergy%20as%20communists%20or%20guerrilla%20collaborators.%20Many%20of%20the%20individuals%20D%E2%80%99Aubuisson%20named%20in%20his%20television%20speeches%20were%20subsequently%20assassinated.%20The%20broadcasts%20launched%20D%E2%80%99Aubuisson%E2%80%99s%20political%20career%20and%20marked%20the%20emergence%20of%20the%20paramilitary%20front%20which%20later%20became%20ARENA&f=false) reported that:
Quoteofficials of the State Department, the Central Intelligence Agency, and the U.S. armed forces have:
• furnished intelligence files that D'Aubuisson used for a series of 1 980 television broadcasts in which he denounced dozens of academics, trade unionists, peasant leaders, Christian Democrats, and members of the clergy as communists or guerrilla collaborators. Many of the individuals D'Aubuisson named in his television speeches were subsequently assassinated. The broadcasts launched D'Aubuisson's political career and marked the emergence of the paramilitary front which later became ARENA;
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 14, 2011, 09:53:31 AM
Ill get to the point shortly. A big shocker coming..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TAixFYnDh4#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TAixFYnDh4#ws)
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 14, 2011, 09:53:31 AM
Quote from: Eidotemit on Apr 14, 2011, 05:01:25 AM
So far this lesson seems to be old, well known, information, out of context citations and bold assumptions and strained conclusions that draw them all together.
Sure, America has done some extremely objectionable things int he past (during a specific time of extreme tension), and may continue to do so as well (though your recent statement regarding the involvement in South America is half baked and overstated), in various ways (usually involving economic manipulation these days); however this can be said of literally any country, carried in scale relative to the country. Again, I also must reiterate that you are reaching conclusions about present day American government based off of information that no longer accurately correlates to modern America.
The conclusions you are reaching are without significant merit; especially to the original root of this "lesson," that the US election is essentially meaningless as each elected official continues some secret agenda.
Let me give you an example of why I cant just "get to the point." Does anyone here really understand the dynamics of Globalization or global economics and trade in general? Has anyone here ever heard of CAFTA and read it's requirements? Has anyone here ever heard of the "Alliance for Progress?" What about the language that Washington uses to mask it's intentions? Has anyone here ever read the documents that expose what Washington means when they use such wonderful terms as "democracy" or "freedom" or "liberation"? Does anyone here know how Washington determines friends and foes or how to decode the language they use to describe governments they are targeting for regime change? Just a few examples.
Tell me. What does these statements by Obama mean to you?
President Obama himself - not just his recycled administration of Clinton officials - supports Henry Kissinger's stand: (http://books.google.com/books?id=KuApAQAAIAAJ&q=Kissinger:+%22If+we+cannot+manage+Central+America,%22+he+told+an+interviewer+this+spring,+%22it+will+be+impossible+to+convince+threatened+nations+in+the+Persian+Gulf+and+in+other+places+that+we+know+how+to+manage+the+global+equilibrium.&dq=Kissinger:+%22If+we+cannot+manage+Central+America,%22+he+told+an+interviewer+this+spring,+%22it+will+be+impossible+to+convince+threatened+nations+in+the+Persian+Gulf+and+in+other+places+that+we+know+how+to+manage+the+global+equilibrium.&hl=en&ei=W5OmTbuGM4jVgAfEoNDzBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA)
QuoteIf we cannot manage Central America, it will be impossible to convince threatened nations in the Persian Gulf and in other places that we know how to manage the Global Equilibrium.
The latter phrase is a euphemism for our rule of the globe. In other words, we may not frighten them enough to accept our orders unless at least we can manage Central America, right near by.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxrhWTZoBP8# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxrhWTZoBP8#)
QuoteRenewing U.S. Leadership in the Americas
Remarks of Senator Barack Obama
Cuban American National Foundation
Since the Bush Administration launched a misguided war in Iraq, its policy in the Americas has been negligent toward our friends, ineffective with our adversaries, disinterested in the challenges that matter in peoples' lives, and incapable of advancing our interests in the region.
No wonder, then, that demagogues like Hugo Chavez have stepped into this vacuum. His predictable yet perilous mix of anti-American rhetoric, authoritarian government, and checkbook diplomacy offers the same false promise as the tried and failed ideologies of the past. But the United States is so alienated from the rest of the Americas that this stale vision has gone unchallenged, and has even made inroads from Bolivia to Nicaragua. And Chavez and his allies are not the only ones filling the vacuum. While the United States fails to address the changing realities in the Americas, others from Europe and Asia – notably China – have stepped up their own engagement.
That is the record – the Bush record in Latin America – that John McCain has chosen to embrace. Senator McCain doesn't talk about these trends in our hemisphere because he knows that it's part of the broader Bush-McCain failure to address priorities beyond Iraq. The situation has changed in the Americas, but we've failed to change with it. The stakes could not be higher. It is time for us to recognize that the future security and prosperity of the United States is fundamentally tied to the future of the Americas.
The Bush Administration has offered no clear vision for this future, and neither has John McCain. So we face a clear choice in this election. We can continue as a bystander, or we can lead the hemisphere into the 21st century. And when I am President of the United States, we will choose to lead.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/samgrahamfelsen/gGCMCY (http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/samgrahamfelsen/gGCMCY)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gopuefFpcx0# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gopuefFpcx0#)
At a campaign speech in Alexandria, Virginia, Obama stated:
QuoteWe've been so obsessed with Iraq and so obsessed with the Middle East, we've been neglecting Latin America even in our own back yard. We've been diverted from focusing on Latin America... Is it any surprise, then, that you've seen people like Hugo Chavez move into the void, because we've been neglectful of that,
China has been sending diplomats and economic development specialists and building roads all throughout Latin America. They are securing trade agreements and contracts. And we ignore Latin America at our own peril.
Ill get to the point shortly. A big shocker coming..
This just keeps getting better and better.
7 Pages and going strong!
Quote from: The PredBen on Apr 14, 2011, 03:21:19 PM
7 Pages and going strong!
Yep. Let's see what other American "Imperialist" stuff is posted.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 14, 2011, 09:53:31 AM
A big shocker coming..
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv338%2Fmaledoro%2FEvil%2520Smilies%2F8c46be58.gif&hash=7ceb85110216523189e9fbdd89c371ffb53b0276)
There had better be a point coming, because so far there isn't one. Well, beyond demonstrating a lesson on how to strain information to tie it to other bits of loosely or completely unrelated history. So, if you please, finish copy-pasting and get on with it.
Also, I, as I assume most involved in this thread, know of CAFTA (the same goes for globalization, and the failed Alliance for Progress). I also disagree with it (and NAFTA) as many in America, even those in "Washington," do (including Obama who voted "no" on CAFTA).
Don't be condescending about things that are fairly common knowledge; especially when you don't seem to fully understand them.
Washington's War against the Church
Many of the victims of Washington's war efforts in Central America were priests, nuns, Church lay workers, and for clear and explicit reasons, which you can see officially stated, like the famous School of America, which trains Latin American officers.
In an article entiteled "Running a School for Dictators",Newsweek Magazine (http://www.newsweek.com/1993/08/08/running-a-school-for-dictators.html) covered some of the training exercises at the US Army School of the Americas:
QuoteSources at the School of the Americas say that when Honduran and Colombian soldiers go through the urban-combat exercise with blanks in their weapons, half the time the village Priest (played by a U.S. Army chaplain) is killed or roughed up.
One of the School's (http://books.google.com/books?ei=FYhYTKC8FI-LnQeIi7HYCA&ct=result&id=Dfy5AAAAIAAJ&dq=Another+official+set+of+SOA+talking+points+in+1999+stated%2C+%22Many+of+the+critics+%5Bof+the+school%5D+supported+Marxism+%E2%80%94+Liberation+Theology+%E2%80%94+in+Latin+America+%E2%80%94+which+was+defeated+with+the+assistance+of+the+US+Army.%22+Recommendation%3A+The+Army+should+publicly+recognize+that+it+has+trained+some+of+the+hemisphere%27s+worst+human+rights+abusers%2C+a+fact+that+should+fundamentally+inform+and+influence+the+United+States%27+future+relationship+with+Latin+America&q=Another+official+set+of+SOA+talking+points+in+1999+stated%2C+%22Many+of+the+critics+%5Bof+the+school%5D+supported+Marxism+%E2%80%94+Liberation+Theology+%E2%80%94+in+Latin+America+%E2%80%94+which+was+defeated+with+the+assistance+of+the+US+Army.%22+The+assertion+that+the+U.S.+Army+defeated+a+brand+of+theology+is+deeply+disturbing+.+Recommendation%3A+The+Army+should+publicly+recognize+that+it+has+trained+some+of+the+hemisphere%27s+worst+human+rights+abusers%2C+a+fact+that+should+fundamentally+inform+and+influence+the+United+States%27+future+relationship+with+Latin+America) advertising points is that the U.S. Army helped defeat liberation theology, which was a dominant force, and it was an enemy for the same reason that secular nationalism in the Arab world was an enemy – it was working for the poor:
QuoteMany of the critics [of the School of the Americas] supported Marxism — Liberation Theology — in Latin America — which was defeated with the assistance of the US Army.
This is the same reason why Hamas and Hezbollah are enemies: they are working for the poor. It doesn't matter if they are Catholic or Muslim or anything else; that is intolerable. The Church of Latin America had undertaken "the preferential option for the poor."
They committed the crime of going back to the Gospels. The contents of the Gospels are mostly suppressed (in the U.S.); they are a radical pacifist collection of documents. It was turned into the religion of the rich by the Emperor Constantine, who eviscerated its content. If anyone dares to go back to the Gospels, they become the enemy, which is what liberation theology was doing.
Human Rights Watch reports: (http://books.google.com/books?id=_c8umnadLwkC&pg=PA244&dq=Since+the+post-Vatican+II+transformation+of+the+Catholic+Church+in+Latin+America+and+the+diffusion+of+theologies+of+%22liberation%22+advocating+a+preferential+option+for+the+poor,+church+workers+have+fallen+under+suspician+and+have+become+targets+of+threats+and+attacks.+The+enmity+felt+for+the+Jesuits+within+certain+sectors+of+the+military+and+the+far+right+has+been+matched+by+violence+directed+against+catechists+and+other+lay+and+clerical+church+workers+throughout+the+country.+Archbisphop+Romero's+explanation+of+why+churches+and+churchworkers+become+targets+of+emnity+and+hostility+in+El+Salvador+still+seems+apt:&hl=en&ei=VgZXTP68DsOC8gaM1JH8Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)
QuoteSince the post-Vatican II transformation of the Catholic Church in Latin America and the diffusion of theologies of "liberation" advocating a preferential option for the poor, church workers have fallen under suspician and have become targets of threats and attacks. The enmity felt for the Jesuits within certain sectors of the military and the far right has been matched by violence directed against catechists and other lay and clerical church workers throughout the country.
Archbisphop Romero's explanation of why churches and churchworkers become targets of emnity and hostility in El Salvador still seems apt:
QuoteWhile it is clear that our Church has been the victim of persecution. It is not that just any Priest or just any institution has been persecuted. It is that segment of the Church which is on the side of the poor and has come out in their defense that has been persecuted and attacked.
Here we once again encounter the key to understanding the persecution of the Church: the poor. It is again the poor who permit us to understand what has happened. That is why the Church has come to understand what persecution of the poor is. The persecution comes about because of the Church's defense of the poor, for assuming the destiny of the poor.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 14, 2011, 04:21:11 PM
Before I continue with the Obama team's activities I wanted to give a little backstory on US history of neo-colonialism in Venezezuela mostly from the 2002-2011 period. Venezuela, not Saudi Arabia, is our #1 supplier of patroleum. They could possibly have the second largest energy reserves in the world. The Citgo gas stations are owned by Venezuela.
2002 US Military Coup in Venezuela
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0lcnNb_t7I# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0lcnNb_t7I#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7c6W_QctQ8# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7c6W_QctQ8#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwBNpFOyPPo# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwBNpFOyPPo#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdKkM12YlGI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdKkM12YlGI#)
General Peter Pace, the Commander in Chief of the US militaries Southern Command (http://armed-services.senate.gov/statemnt/2000/000906pp.pdf) outlined these concerns clearly when he spoke of the three vital US national interests that guide US post-Cold War policy in South America. Some of the vital national interests are the following:
QuoteA common misperception is that the US is completely dependent upon the Middle East for our nation's petroleum needs. However, our largest single supplier of petroleum is actually Venezuela - a country that provides 15% to 19% of our imported oil in any given month.
Another vital interest is continued stability required for access to markets in the US SouthCom AOR, which is critical to the continued economic expansion and prosperity of the United States.
In sum, US vital interests in Latin America are the unhindered access to Latin America's oil, the bolstering of pro-US governments or the overthrow of governments that might threaten US-run exploitative economic programs (what is called 'stability' in official discourse), and open access to strategic land and water corridors.
In Venezuela 2002, the US backed a military coup against the democratically elected government of Hugo Chavez (contrary to what you may believe, Venezuela has a SUBSTANTIVE democracy) that briefly removed him from power for reasons explained in the public record..
QuoteCURRENT AND PROJECTED NATIONAL SECURITY THREATS TO THE UNITED STATES (http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_hr/020602transcript.html)
Senator Roberts:
Let me ask you another question on assessment of the threat to the United States in our own hemisphere. Venezuela does supply a great majority of our energy, not to mention trade--it is Latin and Central America, or what we refer to as the 31 countries of the Southern Command.
I'm very worried about that, more particularly in regards to Venezuela and a fellow name Hugo Chavez .I would appreciate your assessment. If you could underscore that a little bit, the threat to the U.S. within our own hemisphere .
CIA Director George Tenet:
Sir, obviously, Venezuela is important because they're the third-largest supplier of petroleum. I would say that Mr. Chavez--and the State Department may say this--probably doesn't have the interests of the United States at heart.
"Democracy" - as the US defines the term: Societies that are open to U.S. economic penetration and political control.
Secretary of State Colin Powell (http://books.google.com/books?ei=PsRuTIaMAoOglAfkwuDLDw&ct=result&id=EVI1AAAAIAAJ&dq=Secretary+Powell.+Briefly%2C+we+have+been+concerned+with+some+of+the+actions+of+Venezuelan+President+Chavez%2C+and+his+understanding+of+what+a+democratic+system+is+all+about.&q=Secretary+Powell%3A+Briefly%2C+we+have+been+concerned+with+some+of+the+actions+of+Venezuelan+President+Chavez%2C+and+his+understanding+of+what+a+democratic+system+is+all+about.) added that:
QuoteWe have been concerned with some of the actions of Venezuelan President Chavez, and his understanding of what a democratic system is all about.
The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/16/world/bush-officials-met-with-venezuelans-who-ousted-leader.html) noted that:
QuoteMr. Chávez has made himself very unpopular with the Bush administration with his mouthing of revolutionary slogans -- and by threatening the independence of Venezuela's state-owned oil company, Petróleos de Venezuela, the third-largest foreign supplier of American oil.
Which is a euphimism for strange and unnacceptable ideas of asserting sovereign control over our resources in their own lands. The indegenous populations have the tendancy to try to use "our raw materials" for their own purposes. Now that's a conspiracy that has to be stopped!
How then has the US responded to a reformist government in Venezuela?
According to the U.S. State Department's Office of Inspector General report: (http://oig.state.gov/documents/organization/13682.pdf)
QuoteIt is clear that NED [the National Endowment for Democracy], Department of Defense (DOD), and other U.S. assistance programs provided training, institution building, and other support to individuals and organizations understood to be actively involved in the brief ouster of the Chavez government.
In an article titled "Venezuela coup Linked to Bush Team", the Gaurdian reports: (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/apr/21/usa.venezuela)
QuoteSpecialists in the 'dirty wars' of the Eighties encouraged the plotters who tried to topple President Chavez
The failed coup in Venezuela was closely tied to senior officials in the US government, The Observer has established. They have long histories in the 'dirty wars' of the 1980s, and links to death squads working in Central America at that time.
Washington's involvement in the turbulent events that briefly removed left-wing leader Hugo Chavez from power last weekend resurrects fears about US ambitions in the hemisphere.
The Bush administration immediately endorsed the new government under businessman Pedro Carmona. More than 100 people died in events before and after the coup.
Now officials at the Organisation of American States and other diplomatic sources, talking to The Observer, assert that the US administration was not only aware the coup was about to take place, but had sanctioned it, presuming it to be destined for success.
Furthermore, in an artcle entitled "American navy 'helped Venezuelan coup'", the Guardian reports: (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/apr/29/venezuela.duncancampbell)
QuoteIt is also alleged that the US navy aided the abortive coup which took place in Venezuela on April 11 with intelligence from its vessels in the Caribbean. Evidence is also emerging of US financial backing for key participants in the coup.
In the past year, the United States has channeled hundreds of thousands of dollars in grants to US and Venezuelan groups opposed to Mr Chavez, including the labour group whose protests sparked off the coup. The funds were provided by the National Endowment for Democracy, a nonprofit agency created and financed by the US Congress.
The April 6th SEIB document (http://books.google.com/books?id=k51AwjhxmekC&pg=PA161&dq=To+provoke+military+action,+the+plotters+may+try+to+exploit+unrest+stemming+from+opposition+demonstrations+slated+for+later+this+month+or+ongoing+strikes+at+the+state-owned+oil+company+PDVSA.+White-collar+oil+workers&hl=en&ei=WMFuTNGcEMWclgeutrWdDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=To%20provoke%20military%20action%2C%20the%20plotters%20may%20try%20to%20exploit%20unrest%20stemming%20from%20opposition%20demonstrations%20slated%20for%20later%20this%20month%20or%20ongoing%20strikes%20at%20the%20state-owned%20oil%20company%20PDVSA.%20White-collar%20oil%20workers&f=false) further reveals that the CIA was aware of exactly how the coup would be engineered:
QuoteConditions Ripening for Coup Attempt:
Dissident military factions, including some disgruntled senior officers and a group of radical junior officers, are stepping up efforts to organize a coup against President Chavez, possibly as early as this month - The level of detail in the reported plans targets Chavez and 10 other senior officials for arrest -
To provoke military action, the plotters may try to exploit unrest stemming from opposition demonstrations slated for later this month or ongoing strikes at the state-owned oil company PDVSA.
James Petras (http://books.google.com/books?ei=3cpuTOC-PMOAlAeT0KjUDQ&ct=result&id=WmNsAAAAMAAJ&dq=The+IMF+and+financial+institutions+are+fabricating+a+familiar+crisis.+The+tactics+used+are+very+similar+to+those+used+in+Chile.+Civilians+are+used+to+create+a+feeling+of+chaos%2C+and+a+false+picture+of+Chavez+as+a+dictator+is+established%2C+then+the+military+is+incited+to+make+a+coup+for+the+sake+of+the+country.&q=James+Petras%3A+The+IMF+and+financial+institutions+are+fabricating+a+familiar+crisis.+The+tactics+used+are+very+similar+to+those+used+in+Chile.+Civilians+are+used+to+create+a+feeling+of+chaos%2C+and+a+false+picture+of+Chavez+as+a+dictator+is+established%2C+then+the+military+is+incited+to+make+a+coup+for+the+sake+of+the+country.), a professor at New York State University, who was in Chile in the early 1970s and has studied the Washington's overthrow of the Allende government, says that:
QuoteThe IMF and financial institutions are fabricating a familiar crisis. The tactics used are very similar to those used in Chile. Civilians are used to create a feeling of chaos, and a false picture of Chavez as a dictator is established, then the military is incited to make a coup for the sake of the country.
The fascist US-puppet regime immediatly established a totalitarian state the day they siezed power.
The New York Times reports: (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/03/international/americas/03venezuela.html?_r=1)
QuoteThe Central Intelligence Agency was aware that dissident military officers and opposition figures in Venezuela were planning a coup against President Hugo Chávez in 2002, newly declassified intelligence documents show.
Taken into custody by dissident military officers, Mr. Chávez was spirited out of Caracas while an interim government led by Pedro Carmona, a Caracas businessman, took power.
The new government dissolved Congress and the Supreme Court and hunted down Mr. Chávez's ministers.
According to US Embassy Caracas cables (http://books.google.com/books?id=k51AwjhxmekC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=state+department+venezuela+carmona+a+highly+regarded+and+influential+business+leader+who+has+consistently+played+a+critical+role+in+advancing+US+commercial+interests+in+Venezuela&source=bl&ots=zCdCm8TnDf&sig=f5PJ1cM_DeEMeXSh0MWdzvuf9u0&hl=en&ei=OkUiTOS4BoKKlwfau6U0&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=state%20department%20venezuela%20carmona%20a%20highly%20regarded%20and%20influential%20business%20leader%20who%20has%20consistently%20played%20a%20critical%20role%20in%20advancing%20US%20commercial%20interests%20in%20Venezuela&f=false), Pedro Carmona was considered by the US State Department as:
Quotea highly regarded and influential business leader who has consistently played a critical role in advancing US commercial interests in Venezuela.
And later, once the Fedecamaras-CTV alliance had been forged in December 2001, as:
Quotethe right man for the right time in Venezuela.
The State Department (http://books.google.com/books?id=k51AwjhxmekC&pg=PA154&dq=In+both+appearances,+Carmona+delivered+calm+and+statesman-like+speeches&hl=en&ei=CrtuTMCTBMSqlAeHwvSCDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=In%20both%20appearances%2C%20Carmona%20delivered%20calm%20and%20statesman-like%20speeches&f=false) added that:
QuoteCarmona delivered calm and statesman-like speeches .
In contrast, Hugo Chavez was normally referred to as somebody who "did not have the interests of the United States at heart" and "a danger for the stability of the country and Latin America."
Immediatly after the coup, Thomas Dawson, the IMF External Relations Director (http://www.imf.org/external/np/tr/2002/tr020412.htm), stated that:
Quotewe stand ready to assist the new administration in whatever manner they find suitable.
Once Chavez had been rescued by the military and returned to power after popular mass street demonstrations, Miguel Bustamante-Madriz, a member of Chavez's cabinet argued:
QuoteAmerica can't let us stay in power. We are the exception to the new globalization order. If we succeed, we are an example to all the Americas.
A Bush administration spokesman stated quite bluntly that:
QuoteHe [Chavez] was democratically elected, [but] legitimacy is something that is conferred not just by a majority of the voters, however.
The New York Times reports: (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/16/international/americas/16DIPL.html)
Quoteadministration officials did not hide their dismay at his restora tion.
Asked whether the administration now recognizes Mr. Chávez as Venezuela's legitimate president, one administration official replied, ''He was democratically elected,'' then added, ''Legitimacy is something that is conferred not just by a majority of the voters, however.''
Elected governments must have the Mafia-Don's blessing to gain "legitimacy."
You actually think that the US is trying to get an empire?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSvS2ev-4_E# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSvS2ev-4_E#)
And come on Rider. You don't need to quote the whole internet.
Quote from: Sharp Sticks on Apr 14, 2011, 04:23:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSvS2ev-4_E# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSvS2ev-4_E#)
And come on Rider. You don't need to quote the whole internet.
My bad. I just didn't want to miss the details.
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 14, 2011, 04:24:27 PM
My bad. I just didn't want to miss the details.
It's kind of hard to miss. I'm getting stack overflow popups every time I open this page.
Quote from: Sharp Sticks on Apr 14, 2011, 04:26:00 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 14, 2011, 04:24:27 PM
My bad. I just didn't want to miss the details.
It's kind of hard to miss. I'm getting stack overflow popups every time I open this page.
Ok, I'll stop doing that. Its kind of a habit.
Carter administration officials: "our military assistance will help strengthen the Army's key role in reforms." :o
Of course, the Carter adminstration ignored the Archbishop's plea and sent more military aid to it's death squad forces. (http://books.google.com/books?id=Tt4dAAAAMAAJ&q=Congress+approved+%245.7+million+in+US+military+aid+for+the+repressive+junta+of+El+Salvador.+Despite+continued+human+rights+violations,+including+220+persons+killed+last+week,+Congress+proposes+to+send+an+additional+%245.5+million+in+military+aid+us+part+of+the+Fiscal+Year+1981+Foreign+Aid+Appropriations+Act.&dq=Congress+approved+%245.7+million+in+US+military+aid+for+the+repressive+junta+of+El+Salvador.+Despite+continued+human+rights+violations,+including+220+persons+killed+last+week,+Congress+proposes+to+send+an+additional+%245.5+million+in+military+aid+us+part+of+the+Fiscal+Year+1981+Foreign+Aid+Appropriations+Act.&hl=en&ei=MjhcTLrcDcP-8AamwMiEAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA)
QuoteForeign Assistance and Related Programs Appropriations for 1982:AID operating expenses
United States. Congress. House. Committee on Appropriations. Subcommittee on Foreign Operations and Related Agencies (1981-1987):
Congress approved $5.7 million in US military aid for the repressive junta of El Salvador. Despite continued human rights violations, including 220 persons killed last week, Congress proposes to send an additional $5.5 million in military aid us part of the Fiscal Year 1981 Foreign Aid Appropriations Act.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi97.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl226%2FHorhey420%2FMattison21.jpg&hash=0718cb72316086fe331f8a12757cfa87c4a269ac)
Critics of the aid (http://books.google.com/books?id=Dv3DvAULQqMC&pg=PA42&dq=it+would+legitimate+what+has+become+dictatorial+violence+and+that+political+power+in+El+Salvador+lay+with+old-line+military+leaders+in+government+positions+who+practice+a+policy+of+'reform+with+repression.'&hl=en&ei=mTRcTN31EsP88AaD2Lm6Ag&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=it%20would%20legitimate%20what%20has%20become%20dictatorial%20violence%20and%20that%20political%20power%20in%20El%20Salvador%20lay%20with%20old-line%20military%20leaders%20in%20government%20positions%20who%20practice%20a%20policy%20of%20'reform%20with%20repression.'&f=false) charged that:
Quoteit would legitimate what has become dictatorial violence and that political power in El Salvador lay with old-line military leaders in government positions who practice a policy of 'reform with repression.'
A prominant Catholic spokesman (http://books.google.com/books?id=Dv3DvAULQqMC&pg=PA42&dq=Any+military+aid+you+send+to+El+Salvador+ends+up+in+the+hands+of+the+military+and+paramilitary+rightest+groups+who+are+themselves+at+the+root+of+the+problems+of+the+country.&hl=en&ei=WjRcTMnBPMG88gaFn5niAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false) insisted that:
QuoteAny military aid you send to El Salvador ends up in the hands of the military and paramilitary rightest groups who are themselves at the root of the problems of the country.
Carter administration officials (http://books.google.com/books?id=u7vVAAAAMAAJ&q=We+believe+that+the+October+l5+program,+which+is+now+being+implemented+by+the+Revolutionary+Governing+Junta,+offers+the+best+chance+for+social+change,+political+liberalization+and+respect+for+human+rights+in+El+Salvador.&dq=We+believe+that+the+October+l5+program,+which+is+now+being+implemented+by+the+Revolutionary+Governing+Junta,+offers+the+best+chance+for+social+change,+political+liberalization+and+respect+for+human+rights+in+El+Salvador.&hl=en&ei=IVyuTeDXEdT3gAfZyvyJDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA) countered by arguing that:
QuoteWe believe that the October l5 program, which is now being implemented by the Revolutionary Governing Junta, offers the best chance for social change, political liberalization and respect for human rights in El Salvador.
:o
A Pentagon spokesman (http://books.google.com/books?id=hZNqAAAAMAAJ&q=Officials+told+Congress+the+equipment+%22would+help+strengthen+the+Army%27s+key+role+in+reforms%22&dq=Officials+told+Congress+the+equipment+%22would+help+strengthen+the+Army%27s+key+role+in+reforms%22&hl=en&ei=z16uTaGiA42SgQeX5uWHDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA) told Congress that:
Quoteour military assistance will help strengthen the Army's key role in reforms.
:o
-A statement that would have made Orwell cringe. The results were predictable.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 14, 2011, 04:47:34 PM
Quote from: Eidotemit on Apr 14, 2011, 04:08:04 PM
There had better be a point coming, because so far there isn't one. Well, beyond demonstrating a lesson on how to strain information to tie it to other bits of loosely or completely unrelated history. So, if you please, finish copy-pasting and get on with it.
Also, I, as I assume most involved in this thread, know of CAFTA (the same goes for globalization, and the failed Alliance for Progress). I also disagree with it (and NAFTA) as many in America, even those in "Washington," do (including Obama who voted "no" on CAFTA).
Don't be condescending about things that are fairly common knowledge; especially when you don't seem to fully understand them.
Apparently it's not. The "Alliance for Progress" was much more than a failed program. It was a program of exploitation and mass murder of organizing peasants, Church Clergy that aided the poor, healthcare workers, human rights activists, journalists, trade unionists, teachers, by Death Squads organized and propped up by the United States. Obama is a hardcore so called "free trader". He didnt stand by his vote when he became President. Far from it. Ill get to that later..
Tell me that you aren't serious. You think the US is a people of butchers all of a sudden? I'm thinking that you don't even understand what you are saying.
I don't think he's said anything about American citizens being butchers. You get governments and then you have people. Attacking the former is not an attack on the latter.
MASSACRE AT ARCHBISHOP'S FUNERAL by US-Death Squads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN6LWdqcyuc# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN6LWdqcyuc#)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbs.org%2Fitvs%2Fenemiesofwar%2Fphotos%2Fph_civilwar_romero.jpg&hash=b9de39a7701ee2cf34b3ebbb42710e32531da2d2)
BBC News reports: (http://"http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/file_on_4/4376733.stm")
QuoteOscar Arnulfo Romero's assassination focused the attention of the world on the scale of repression in the small Central American republic. And at his funeral a few days later, people around the globe saw on their own television screens the kind of political terror that had been unleashed to stop growing demands for change in one of the most unequal societies in Latin America. Tens of thousands of mourners who had gathered for Romero's funeral Mass in front of the cathedral in San Salvador were filmed fleeing in terror as army gunners on the rooftops around the square opened fire.
The roots of the violence lay in El Salvador's history. For the 50 years before Romero's death, the country had been run by an alliance between wealthy coffee planters and the military: politics was left to the officers, business to the oligarchy. The arrangement lasted until the 1970s when the pressure of population and a growing middle class produced a coherent challenge - not least from activists within the Catholic Church.
The massacre was carried out by the US-organized, trained, armed, advised, and financed National Police and National Guard.
Thousands of peasants and urban poor took part in a commemorative mass a decade later, along with many foreign bishops, but the US was notable by its absence. The Salvadoran Church formally proposed Romero for sainthood. All of this passed with scarcely a mention in the country that funded and trained Romero's assassins. The New York Times, the "newspaper of record," published no editorial on the assassination when it occurred or in the years that followed, and no editorial or news report on the commemoration.
I think I'm just going to give up now.
*Sees thread*
Hmm...
*Sees huge posts and conspiracy theories*
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee44%2FXenomorph02%2FDeadpool%2520Scans%2520etc%2Fdeadpoolfthat.jpg&hash=5bf628d082d0974f39e5ab9dc942e2ccd06f1267)
f**k that shit!
*leaves*
The Rio Sumpul Massacre
On March 7, 1980, two weeks before the assassination, a state of siege had been instituted in El Salvador, and the war against the peasentry and the Church began in force with continued US support and involvement. The first major attack was a big massacre at the Rio Sumpul (http://www.derechos.org/nizkor/salvador/informes/truth.html), a coordinated military operation of the Honduran and Salvadoran armies in which at least 300 people were butchered. Infants were cut to pieces with machetes, and women were tortured and drowned. Pieces of bodies were found in the river for days afterwards. There were church observers, so the information came out immediately, but the mainstream US media didn't think it was worth reporting.
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Peasants were the main victims of this war, along with labor organizers, students, priests or anyone suspected of working for the interests of the people. As a result approximately 35,000 refugees, mostly women and children, had been living on the Honduran border in conditions of poverty, starvation and disease, as reported by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees.
These people were attempting to escape the regular raids of the Salvadorian army and the government's paramilitaries, ORDEN. The latter would cross the border to attack the refugee camps, which had formed out of the population attempting to escape domestic state-terror.
The UN Truth Commission report on El Salvador (http://www.derechos.org/nizkor/salvador/informes/truth.html) concluded that:
QuoteOn 14 May 1980, units of Military Detachment No. 1, the National Guard and the paramilitary Organización Nacional Democrática (ORDEN) deliberately killed at least 300 non-combatants, including women and children, who were trying to flee to Honduras across the Sumpul river beside the hamlet of Las Aradas, Department of Chalatenango. The massacre was made possible by the cooperation of the Honduran armed forces, who prevented the Salvadorian villagers from landing on the other side.
After visiting these border regions in January 1981 on a fact-finding mission, a U.S. congressional delegation (http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&q=Foreign+Assistance+and+Related+Programs+Appropriations+for+1982%3A+The+Salvadorean+method+of+%22drying+up+the+ocean%22+involves%2C+according+to+those+who+have+fled+from+its+violence%2C+a+combination+of+murder%2C+torture%2C+rape%2C+the+burning+of+crops+in+order+to+create+starvation+conditions%2C+and+a+program+of+general+terrorism+and+harassment.&btnG=Search+Books) submitted a report to Congress. The report provided extensive documentation of the U.S.-backed Salvadorian death squads systematic atrocities against its civilian population, noting that:
QuoteThe refugees describe what appears to be a systematic campaign conducted by the security forces of El Salvador to deny any rural base for guerrilla operations in the north.
By terrorizing and depopulating villages in the region they have sought to isolate the guerrillas and create problems of logistics and food supply... The Salvadorean method of 'drying up the ocean' involves, according to those who have fled from its violence, a combination of murder, torture, rape, the burning of crops in order to create starvation conditions, and a program of general terrorism and harassment.
The report (http://books.google.com/books?id=mXMiQ_jfWCoC&pg=PA254&dq=She+personally+saw+children+around+the+age+of+eight+being+raped,+and+then+they+would+take+their+bayonets+and+make+mincemeat+of+them.+With+their+guns+they+would+shoot+at+their+faces.&hl=en&ei=WmauTbrGNsbFgAf288D7Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=She%20personally%20saw%20children%20around%20the%20age%20of%20eight%20being%20raped%2C%20and%20then%20they%20would%20take%20their%20bayonets%20and%20make%20mincemeat%20of%20them.%20With%20their%20guns%20they%20would%20shoot%20at%20their%20faces.&f=false) then presents some sample interviews in which refugees describe the bombing and burning of villages by the army, mass murder of fleeing civilians, shooting of defenseless peasants from helicopters, and extraordinary brutality (e.g.: mutilation; decapitation):
QuoteShe personally saw children around the age of eight being raped, and then they would take their bayonets and make mincemeat of them. With their guns they would shoot at their faces. 'She said, "Even going to the mountainside, No, they haven't done any of those kinds of things, but the Army would cut people up and put soap and coffee in their stomachs as a mocking. They would slit the stomach of a pregnant woman and take the child out, as if they were taking were taking eggs out of an iguana. That is what I saw.
With regard to the guerrillas, refugees report: (http://books.google.com/books?ei=GGFXTLbzGYH_8AbG5sT6Ag&ct=result&id=MJa2AAAAIAAJ&dq=She+personally+saw+children+around+the+age+of+eight+being+raped%2C+an%27%5E+then+they+would+take+their+bayonets+and+make+mincemeat+of+them.+With+their+guns+they+would+shoot+at+their+faces.+%27She+said%2C+%22Even+going+to+the+mountainside%2C&q=She+personally+saw+children+around+the+age+of+eight+being+raped%2C+an%27%5E+then+they+would+take+their+bayonets+and+make+mincemeat+of+them.+With+their+guns+they+would+shoot+at+their+faces.+%27She+said%2C+%22Even+going+to+the+mountainside%2C+No%2C+they+haven%27t+done+any+of+those+kinds+of+things.%2C+but+the+Army+would+cut+people+up+and+put+soap+and+coffee+in+their+stomachs+as+a+mocking.+They+would+slit+the+stomach+of+a+pregnant+woman+and+take+the+child+out%2C+as+if+they+were+taking+were+taking+eggs+out+of+an+iguana.+That+is+what+I+saw.+We+don%27t+complain+about+them+at+all%2C+they+haven%27t+done+any+of+those+kind+of+things%2C+it%27s+the+military+that+is+doing+this.+Only+the+military.+The+popular+organization+isn%27t+doing+any+of+this.)
QuoteWe don't complain about them at all, they haven't done any of those kind of things, it's the military that is doing this. Only the military. The popular organization isn't doing any of this.
As for the military: (http://books.google.com/books?id=x9UiLmqwN4AC&pg=PA210&dq=They+were+killing+everybody.+They+were+looking+for+people+to+kill+-+that%27s+what+they+were+doing.&hl=en&ei=KWeuTc77D8eBgAfVpPnsCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=They%20were%20killing%20everybody.%20They%20were%20looking%20for%20people%20to%20kill%20-%20that%27s%20what%20they%20were%20doing.&f=false)
QuoteThey were killing everybody. They were looking for people to kill - that's what they were doing.
The report concludes (http://books.google.com/books?id=D44tEOcAiQcC&pg=PA224&dq=The+United+States+should+suspend+military+sales,+training+and+assistance+to+the+security+forces+of+El+Salvador+on+the+grounds+that+those+forces+are+operating+independent+of+responsible+civilian+control,+and+are+conducting+a+systematic+campaign+of+terrorism+directed+against+segments+of+their+own+population.&hl=en&ei=_2euTb7SHcXFgAfasKXsCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20United%20States%20should%20suspend%20military%20sales%2C%20training%20and%20assistance%20to%20the%20security%20forces%20of%20El%20Salvador%20on%20the%20grounds%20that%20those%20forces%20are%20operating%20independent%20of%20responsible%20civilian%20control%2C%20and%20are%20conducting%20a%20systematic%20campaign%20of%20terrorism%20directed%20against%20segments%20of%20their%20own%20population.&f=false) that:
QuoteThe United States should suspend military sales, training and assistance to the security forces of El Salvador on the grounds that those forces are operating independent of responsible civilian control, and are conducting a systematic campaign of terrorism directed against segments of their own population.
In fact, the government is effectively under right-wing military control, the reformist officers having been driven out of the junta.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcjrarchive.org%2Fimg%2Fposts%2FMeiselas11.jpg&hash=27fb6360c7812ae69932f369216709a50a364611)
The U.N. Truth Commission report (http://onlineministries.creighton.edu/CollaborativeMinistry/truth-com.html) concluded that:
QuoteSalvadoran exiles living in Miami helped administer death squad activities between 1980 and 1983, with apparently little attention from the U.S. government. Such use of American territory for acts of terrorism abroad should be investigated and never allowed to be repeated.
Unfortunately, the Salvadoran military junta and death squads were also in receipt of a: (http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=Carter+program+of+support+for+repression+and+massacre+in+El+Salvador%2C+while+attempting+to+exploit+the+tragedy%2C+in+the+manner+of+earlier+years%2C+for+the+purposes+of+their+domestic+programs+of+militarization+and+alms+for+the+wealthy.&btnG=Search+Books#sclient=psy&hl=en&tbo=1&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=Carter+program+of+support+for+repression+and+massacre+in+El+Salvador%2C+while+attempting+to+exploit+the+tragedy%2C+in+the+manner+of+earlier+years%2C+for+the+purposes+of+their+domestic+programs+of+militarization+and+alms+for+the+wealthy.&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=d90f07338512a581)
QuoteCarter program of support for repression and massacre in El Salvador, while attempting to exploit the tragedy, in the manner of earlier years, for the purposes of their domestic programs of militarization and alms for the wealthy.
The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/1997/04/19/world/central-americans-feel-sting-of-new-us-immigration-law.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all) has further recorded the aftermath of the U.S. operation, noting that:
Quotebecause the United States armed and financed the army whose brutality sent them into exile, few Salvadoreans were able to obtain the refugee status granted to Cubans, Vietnamese, Kuwaitis, and other nationalities at various times. The conflict lasted from 1979 until 1992, during which more than 70,000 people were killed in El Salvador, most of them by the American-backed army and the death squads it in turn supported, thus forcing many people here to flee to the United States where they have often been denied asylum.
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Quote from: Horhey on Apr 14, 2011, 08:43:24 PM
Quote from: Purebreedalien on Apr 14, 2011, 08:31:03 PM
*Sees thread*
Hmm...
*Sees huge posts and conspiracy theories*
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee44%2FXenomorph02%2FDeadpool%2520Scans%2520etc%2Fdeadpoolfthat.jpg&hash=5bf628d082d0974f39e5ab9dc942e2ccd06f1267)
f**k that shit!
*leaves*
Point out what you say are conspiracy theories please.
Oh, y'know, most of the stuff I skimmed through without reading properly. Basically TL ; DR.
The Assault on the University in San Salvador
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC31ysZtLvM#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC31ysZtLvM#ws)
In June 1980 the university in San Salvador was attacked and destroyed by the army. Many faculty and students were killed and much of the university facilities were simply demolished.
From the Worldmark Encyclopedia of the Nations: Americas: (http://books.google.com/books?id=X8lWAAAAMAAJ&q=The+university+was+stormed+and+ransacked+by+government+troops+on+26+June+1980%3B+at+least+50+students+and+the+rector+were+killed,+and+the+university+did+not+reopen+for+several+years.&dq=The+university+was+stormed+and+ransacked+by+government+troops+on+26+June+1980%3B+at+least+50+students+and+the+rector+were+killed,+and+the+university+did+not+reopen+for+seve%20ral+years.&hl=en&ei=m05YTL3jCIKC8gaFvPGwCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ)
QuoteThe university was stormed and ransacked by government troops on 26 June 1980; at least 50 students and the rector were killed, and the university did not reopen for several years.
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In November the political opposition was massacred. Meanwhile the independent media were also destroyed.
New York Times (http://books.google.com/books?id=rKJqAAAAMAAJ&q=A+thirty-five-year-+old+priest,+Manuel+Antonio+Reyes+Monico,+was+picked+up+by+government+troops,+and+later+shot.+During+his+homily+on+October+26,+1980,+Archbishop+Rivera+y+Damas+condemned+the+armed+forces%27+%22war+of+extermination+and+genocide+against+a+defenseless+civilian+population.%22&dq=A+thirty-five-year-+old+priest,+Manuel+Antonio+Reyes+Monico,+was+picked+up+by+government+troops,+and+later+shot.+During+his+homily+on+October+26,+1980,+Archbishop+Rivera+y+Damas+condemned+the+armed+forces%27+%22war+of+extermination+and+genocide+against+a+defenseless+civilian+population.%22&hl=en&ei=-mquTZrjLMzOgAec1fX1Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA) journalist, Raymond Bonner noted that:
QuoteA thirty-five-year- old priest, Manuel Antonio Reyes Monico, was picked up by government troops, and later shot. During his homily on October 26, 1980, Archbishop Rivera y Damas condemned the armed forces' "war of extermination and genocide against a defenseless civilian population."
Two months later: (http://books.google.com/books?id=mFgMAAAAYAAJ&q=Duarte+hailed+the+killers+for+%22valiant+service+alongside+the+people+against+subversion%22+as+he+was+sworn+in+as+President+of+the+junta+in+an+effort+to+provide+it+with+legitimacy+after+the+murder+of+four+American+churchwomen.&dq=Duarte+hailed+the+killers+for+%22valiant%20+service+alongside+the+people+against+subversion%22+as+he+was+sworn+in+as+President+of+the+junta+in+an+effort+to+provide+it+with+legitimacy+after+the+murder+of+four+American+churchwomen.&hl=en&ei=r1FYTOjvJ8L68AbIo4TBCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ)
QuoteDuarte hailed the killers for "valiant service alongside the people against subversion" as he was sworn in as President of the junta in an effort to provide it with legitimacy after the murder of four American churchwomen.
The role of the "moderate" Duarte was to provide a fig leaf for the military rulers and ensure them a continuing flow of US funding after the armed forces had raped and murdered four churchwomen from the US. That had aroused some protest here; slaughtering Salvadorans is one thing, but raping and killing American nuns is a definite PR mistake. The media evaded and downplayed the story, following the lead of the Carter Administration and its investigative commission.
For the year of 1980, the Human Rights Office of the Archdiosese of San Salvador (http://books.google.com/books?id=HaZtAAAAMAAJ&q=8,062+murders+of+Persons+of+the+popular+and+progressive+sectors+killed+for+political+reasons,+not+in+military+confrontations,+but+as+a+result+ofmilitary+operations+by+the+Army,+Security+Forces,+and+Paramilitary+organizations+coordinated+by+the+High+Command+of+the+Armed+Forces.&dq=8,062+murders+of+Persons+of+the+popular+and+progressive+sectors+killed+for+political+reasons,+not+in+military+confrontations,+but+as+a+result+of+military+operations+by+the+Army,+Security+Forces,+and+Paramilitary+organizations+coordinated+by+the+High+Command+of+the+Armed+Forces.&hl=en&ei=6muuTce0PML50gGVhp2rCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ) tabulated:
Quote8,062 murders of Persons of the popular and progressive sectors killed for political reasons, not in military confrontations, but as a result of military operations by the Army, Security Forces, and Paramilitary organizations coordinated by the High Command of the Armed Forces.
The independent newspapers in El Salvador, which might have reported these atrocities, had been destroyed. Although they were mainstream and pro-business, they were still too undisciplined for the military's taste. The problem was taken care of in 1980-81, when the editor of one was murdered by the security forces; the other fled into exile. As usual, these events were considered too insignificant to merit more than a few words in US newspapers.
Meanwhile, the Washington Post (http://books.google.com/books?id=7LlqAAAAMAAJ&q=Rather,+readers+were+assured+by+the+Washington+Post+that+%22there+is+no+real+argument+that+most+of+the+estimated+10000+political+fatalities+in+1980+were+victims+of+government+forces+or+irregulars+associated+with+them.%22&dq=Rather,+readers+were+assured+by+the+Washington+Post+that+%22there+is+no+real+argument+that+most+of+the+estimated+10000+political+fatalities+in+1980+were+victims+of+government+forces+or+irregulars+associated+with+them.%22&hl=en&ei=U2yuTZ31NsTt0gHmioS4Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg) assured us that:
Quotethere is no real argument that most of the estimated 10000 political fatalities in 1980 were victims of government forces or irregulars associated with them."
Though it was quietly conceded that at the time, officials of the Carter administration (http://books.google.com/books?id=b5suAQAAIAAJ&q=The+junta+blames+%22uncontrollable%22+right-+wing+bands,+although,+under+the+Carter+Administration,+United+States+officials+said+security+forces+were+responsible+for+90+percent+of+the+atrocities.&dq=The+junta+blames+%22uncontrollable%22+right-+wing+bands,+although,+under+the+Carter+Administration,+United+States+officials+said+security+forces+were+responsible+for+90+percent+of+the+atrocities.&hl=en&ei=LWRYTKq4OYL-8Ab915TsCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA) were informing the media that:
Quotesecurity forces were responsible for 90 percent of the atrocities, not uncontrollable right wing bands.
As the press had been reporting.
If I knew who Alex Jones was, maybe that'd help, but being that I'm not American, and therefore, don't really care, I don't see why I'm still posting here. :D
Later!
Carter's Legacy in El Salvador
The Senate Select Commitee on Intelligence (http://books.google.com/books?id=gULNz3uPso8C&pg=PA33&dq=Numerous+Salvadoran+officials+in+the+military+and+security+forces+as+well+as+other+official+organizations+have+been+involved+in+encouraging+or+conducting+death+squad+activities+or+other+violent+human+rights+abuses.+By+and+large,+the+death+squad+and+other+abuses+involving+Salvadoran+officials+or+encouraged+or+condoned+by+them+have+originated+from+the+security+services+-+especially+in+recent+years+the+Treasury+Police+but+also+the+National+Police+and+National+Gaurd.+Personnel+from+military+units+have+also+been+involved+in+such+abuses.+This+has+included+officials+in+the+civillian+government,+representatives+in+the+private+sector+organizations,+and+various+individuals+associated+with+the+traditional+oligarchy+of+that+country.&hl=en&ei=CYNYTKyKHZXrnQffu-iyCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false) concluded that:
QuoteNumerous Salvadoran officials in the military and security forces as well as other official organizations have been involved in encouraging or conducting death squad activities or other violent human rights abuses. By and large, the death squad and other abuses involving Salvadoran officials or encouraged or condoned by them have originated from the security services - especially in recent years the Treasury Police but also the National Police and National Gaurd. Personnel from military units have also been involved in such abuses.
This has included officials in the civillian government, representatives in the private sector organizations, and various individuals associated with the traditional oligarchy of that country.
But according to a U.S. Embassy spokesman (http://books.google.com/books?id=5mp7AAAAMAAJ&q=If+you+pursue+the+squads+it+is+going+to+cut+so+far+back+into+the+fabric+of+Salvadorean+society+you+may+face+the+destabilisation+of+the+society.&dq=If+you+pursue+the+squads+it+is+going+to+cut+so+far+back+into+the+fabric+of+Salvadorean+society+you+may+face+the+destabilisation+of+the+society.&hl=en&ei=Xm6uTafFM8rcgQfX2uX6Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ), El Salvador might not survive the disruption of these traditional practices:
QuoteIf you pursue the squads it is going to cut so far back into the fabric of Salvadorean society you may face the destabilisation of the society.
In other words, we must not interfere with the practices of the elite groups who constitute that part of the society that matters, or we might disturb it's "stability."
It is not easy to employ killers for your work and then expect them to act like gentlemen - particularly when their proffessional skills are instrumental for the task at hand. Furthermore, it is impossible to deny the "Washington Connection" in forming, training and maintaining this system of highly organized state terror.
Let's look at the issue of human rights. Now actually, that's an empirical question. You can study how American foreign policy is related to human rights, and it has been studied for Latin America and elsewhere. The leading American specialist on human rights in Latin America, Lars Schoultz, has a study published in Comparative Politics (January 1981), in which he investigated exactly that question. He asked how the human rights climate in a country was correlated with American aid. He chose a very narrow conception of human rights, what he called "anti-torture rights," that is, the right to be free from torture by the government and so on.
He found that there is a relationship between human rights and American foreign policy: namely, the more the human rights climate deteriorates, the more American aid increases. The correlation was strong. There was no correlation between American aid and need. This aid included military aid and it went on right through the Carter administration.
To use Lars Schoultz's words: (http://www.jstor.org/pss/421620?cookieSet=1)
QuoteUS aid has tended to flow disproportionately to the hemisphere's relatively egregious violators of fundamental human rights, to governments which torture their citizens. Other studies have shown the same, and the reasons are not hard to discern.
We send aid to precisely those governments which torture their citizens, and the more effectively they do so, the more we'll aid them. At least that's what the evidence shows in this and other studies.
Edward Herman, who investigated the same sort of thing that Schoultz did but on a worldwide basis. Herman found the same correlation: the worse the human rights climate, the more American aid goes up. But he also carried out another study which gives you some insight into what's really happening.
He compared American aid to changes in the investment climate, the climate for business operations, as measured, for example, by whether foreign firms can repatriate profits and that sort of thing. It turned out there was a very close correlation.
The better the climate for business operations, the more American aid -- the more we support the foreign government. That gives you a plausible theory. U.S. foreign policy is in fact based on the principle that human rights are irrelevant, but that improving the climate for foreign business operations is highly relevant. In fact, that flows from the central geopolitical conception.
Now how do you improve the business climate in a third world country? Well, it's easy. You murder priests, you torture peasant organizers, you destroy popular organizations, you institute mass murder and repression to prevent any popular organization. And that improves the investment climate.
So there's a secondary correlation between American aid and the deterioration of human rights. It's entirely natural that we should tend to aid countries that are egregious violators of fundamental human rights and that torture their citizens, and that's indeed what we find.
In Carter's last year, 1980, the death toll reached about 10,000, rising to about 13,000 for 1981 as the Reaganites took command. The following was noted by the Council on Hemispheric Affairs: (http://"http://www.coha.org/Press%20Release%20Archives/1981/81.1.pdf")
QuoteMore people have died in El Salvador during the past year, largely as the result of government-condoned right-wing death squad killings, than in all other nations of Latin America combined... The death toll... reached almost 10,000, with the vast majority of the victims falling prey to right-wing terrorism sanctioned by key government officials... [T]hese countless killings have gone unpunished and even uninvestigated as the government's own military and police forces are almost always involved in them.
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In his final days as president, the Carter administration increased military aid to the death squads and military junta to $10 million, and sent additional American advisors.
The New York Times reports: (http://www.nytimes.com/1981/01/25/weekinreview/the-world-in-summary-guerrillas-regroup-as-carter-switches-on-salvador-arms.html)
QuoteAmong its last acts, the Carter State Department disclosed last week that it had sent El Salvador ''lethal'' military aid. Transfused with a quick fix of $5 million in rifles, ammunition, grenades and helicopters. Announcing the arms aid, which came on top of $5 million in ''nonlethal'' military assistance.
The so called "Human Rights President's" legacy in El Salvador is a 'legacy of terror'.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 14, 2011, 08:56:37 PM
Quote from: Purebreedalien on Apr 14, 2011, 08:47:30 PM
If I knew who Alex Jones was, maybe that'd help, but being that I'm not American, and therefore, don't really care, I don't see why I'm still posting here. :D
Later!
Then why did you reflexively dismiss information you know nothing about or even cared to look over thoroughly?
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fverydemotivational.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F04%2Fdemotivational-posters-u-mad.jpg&hash=a0aa7e85a8e7d9c950b219b10cefef47e6da1dae)
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 14, 2011, 08:56:37 PM
Quote from: Purebreedalien on Apr 14, 2011, 08:47:30 PM
If I knew who Alex Jones was, maybe that'd help, but being that I'm not American, and therefore, don't really care, I don't see why I'm still posting here. :D
Later!
Then why did you reflexively dismiss information you know nothing about or even cared to look over thoroughly?
I read some stuff, read some comments, and made my mind up from there. It's how I roll.
Is this thread worthy of commander griker?
Quote from: ShadowPred on Apr 14, 2011, 08:59:10 PM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 12, 2011, 09:47:20 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 12, 2011, 09:44:14 PM
By request.
...of Grikeroverman.
THEY'VE COMBINED!?
And bore a most sour and bitter fruit (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1883).
Quote from: ShadowPred on Apr 14, 2011, 09:02:49 PM
Is this thread worthy of commander griker?
He
is Griker.
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 09:06:32 PM
Quote from: ShadowPred on Apr 14, 2011, 08:59:10 PM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 12, 2011, 09:47:20 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 12, 2011, 09:44:14 PM
By request.
...of Grikeroverman.
THEY'VE COMBINED!?
And bore a most sour and bitter fruit (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1883).
Quote from: ShadowPred on Apr 14, 2011, 09:02:49 PM
Is this thread worthy of commander griker?
He is Griker.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi124.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp30%2FShadowPred%2Ftumblr_ljguetwzUZ1qawnqeo1_400.gif&hash=68f08e81052b179aaf3fb8b3c40eb693c9b3e6c4)
this f**king thread needs to be locked away in the depths of ATS.
No need to.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 14, 2011, 09:17:35 PMYou can roll better than that.
That's true.
Horhey did.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv338%2Fmaledoro%2Fdrugz%2Fgethigh.gif&hash=b07097ad1211d92608892882c0c900c1e297cdad)
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 09:33:50 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 14, 2011, 09:17:35 PMYou can roll better than that.
That's true. Horhey did.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/maledoro/drugz/gethigh.gif
lol
How long has Commander Griker been banned?
a year or more.
Thankyou
I wish he was still with us.
The Reaganite Phase
The incoming Reaganites immediatly went much further, seeking to justify the death squad murders of the American nuns, notably Secretary of State Alexander Haig and UN Ambassador Jeane Kirkpatrick. But it was still deemed worthwhile to have a show trial a few years later, while exculpating the murderous junta - and, of course, the paymaster.
The New York Times reports: (http://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/21/world/how-us-actions-helped-hide-salvador-human-rights-abuses.html?pagewanted=all)
QuoteIncoming Reagan Administration officials tried to transfer at least some responsibility for the murders from the Salvadoran military to the women themselves. Jeane Kirkpatrick, the newly appointed delegate to the United Nations, called the women leftists. Mr. Haig suggested that the women, who were raped and shot point-blank in the head, might have run a roadblock.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi97.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl226%2FHorhey420%2FWolverine%2F50462095.jpg&hash=98c3c0e2131cd20a27426667b047bbef5842bd07)
And of course, the Reaganites didnt waste anytime getting their hands bloody.
The New York Times reports: (http://www.nytimes.com/1981/01/25/weekinreview/the-world-in-summary-guerrillas-regroup-as-carter-switches-on-salvador-arms.html)
QuoteIn one of its first acts, the Reagan Administration further bolstered the junta, increasing economic aid by $12.5 million, to $32.5 million.
In a 1981 article titled "Supply Line for a Junta", TIME Magazine reports: (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,922440,00.html)
Quote19 trainers were joined in El Salvador last week by a six-man naval training team that will help repair engines and radar equipment on Salvadoran patrol boats.
The Reagan Administration is also sending four five-man training teams within the next few weeks to instruct Salvadoran troops in such subjects as intelligence, combat techniques and the use and maintenance of helicopters.
The training of Salvadoran troops by the U.S. began in early 1980 at Fort Gulick in Panama, where the School of the Americas specializes in teaching antiguerrilla warfare. The U.S. is also readying some $25 million in new equipment for El Salvador, including helicopters, vehicles, radar and surveillance equipment, and small arms.
The New York Times noted that: (http://www.nytimes.com/1987/04/19/world/central-america-s-arms-buildup-the-risk-of-guns-without-butter.html?pagewanted=all)
QuoteUnited States influence has been strong. American military assistance to its clients in the region jumped from $14.2 million in 1981 to $212 million in 1986, and the security forces of El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala more than doubled from 1981 to 1986.
The Administration has sent hundreds of American advisers and C.I.A. operatives to oversee the training, arming and management of Central American client states' armies and police over the last six years. In Guatemala, Nicaragua and El Salvador, they became among the most repressive and corrupt armies in Latin America.
The Reagan Administration has continued the traditional American practice of funneling military aid directly to local armies and police forces, with almost no influence from civilian officials. In Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador and Panama, Government officials have virtually no say in whether the aid will be given or how it will be used, according to several diplomats and local officials.
Furthermore, the Washington Post (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-938047.html) points out that:
QuoteThe U.S. was deeply involved in running the war, from intelligence gathering to strategy planning to training of everyone from officers to foot soldiers. By 1982, U.S. military advisers were assigned to each of the six Salvadoran brigades, as well as each of 10 smaller detachments. The U.S. put tens of millions of dollars into developing the ultra-modern national intelligence directorate to coordinate intelligence gathering and dissemination.
U.S. military and CIA officials participated in almost every important meeting. Most brigades had a U.S. intelligence officer assigned to them, as well as a U.S. liaison officer. U.S. advisers regularly doled out small amounts of money, usually less than $1,000 at a time, for intelligence work.
The Christian Science Monitor (http://www.csmonitor.com/1984/0509/050943.html) was one of the first news organizations to reveal the CIA-Death Squad link in El Salvador:
QuoteThe CIA and US military advisers have helped organize and have financed, trained, and advised special Salvadorean Army and intelligence units which, although presumably set up for counterintelligence purposes, subsequently engaged in 'death squad' activities. The Salvadorean units ''frequently torture and sometimes kill'' Salvadorean citizens - apparently with the knowledge of their US mentors.
In an article entitled "Washington's Role in El Salvador's Death Squads", the Washington Post (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-939063.html) noted that:
QuoteIn late 1983, U.S. policymakers established functional, if not operational, control over the death-squad bureaucracy. One could also note that the command structure of the Salvadoran death squads was responsive to the directives of senior U.S. policymakers. The bureaucracy of death remained in place, subject to the military chain of command, whose leaders were in daily contact with U.S. advisers.
The head of the Treasury Police, whose death squads were particularly notorious, was Col. Nicolas Carranza, who received $90,000 a year from the CIA for unspecified services.
When the Salvadoran government continued to murder its civilian opponents in 1981 and 1982, Reagan administration officials came to its defense. As an instrument of U.S. policy, death squads still enjoyed support among officials in the Executive Branch.
Neil Livingstone, a consultant who worked with Oliver North at the National Security Council, reviewed U.S. policy in El Salvador in the early '80s and concluded, "Death squads are an extremely effective tool, however odious, in combatting revolutionary challenges."
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 14, 2011, 10:06:19 PM
Quote from: ShadowPred on Apr 14, 2011, 09:08:02 PM
this f**king thread needs to be locked away in the depths of ATS.
You no like? Make it stop by debunking it. You can make it all go away. More coming so get to work.
No that's not what I meant at all. There's a reason I mentioned ATS.
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 14, 2011, 09:54:30 PM
Quote from: ShadowPred on Apr 14, 2011, 09:46:39 PM
I wish he was still with us.
He still is...
In spirit.
In the 1984 article entitled "Behind the Death Squads: An Exclusive Report on the U.S. Role in El Salvador's Official Terror", award winning investigative journalist Allan Nairn (http://books.google.com/books?id=2n_vakG8NYIC&pg=PA444&dq=Early+in+the+1960s,+during+the+Kennedy+Administration,+agents+of+the+U.S.+Government+in+El+Salvador+set+up+two+official+security+organizations+that+killed+thousands+of+peasants+and+suspected+leftists+over+the+next+fifteen+years.+These+organizations,+guided+by+American+operatives,+developed+into+the+paramilitary+apparatus+that+came+to+be+known+as+the+Salvadoran+Death+Squads.+Today,+even+as+the+Reagan+Administration+publicly+condemns+the+Death+Squads,+the+CIA%E2%80%94in+violation+of+U.S.+law%E2%80%94continues+to+provide+training,+support,+and+intelligence+to+security+forces+directly+involved+in+Death+Squad+activity.+Evidence+of+U.S.+involvement+covers+a+broad+spectrum+of+activity.+Over+the+past+twenty+years,+officials+of+the+State+Department,+the+Central+Intelligence+Agency,+and+the+U.S.+armed+forces+have:&hl=en&ei=PAJbTNLIF4T58AaI4PjkAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Early%20in%20the%201960s%2C%20during%20the%20Kennedy%20Administration%2C%20agents%20of%20the%20U.S.%20Government%20in%20El%20Salvador%20set%20up%20two%20official%20security%20organizations%20that%20killed%20thousands%20of%20peasants%20and%20suspected%20leftists%20over%20the%20next%20fifteen%20years.%20These%20organizations%2C%20guided%20by%20American%20operatives%2C%20developed%20into%20the%20paramilitary%20apparatus%20that%20came%20to%20be%20known%20as%20the%20Salvadoran%20Death%20Squads.%20Today%2C%20even%20as%20the%20Reagan%20Administration%20publicly%20condemns%20the%20Death%20Squads%2C%20the%20CIA%E2%80%94in%20violation%20of%20U.S.%20law%E2%80%94continues%20to%20provide%20training%2C%20support%2C%20and%20intelligence%20to%20security%20forces%20directly%20involved%20in%20Death%20Squad%20activity.%20Evidence%20of%20U.S.%20involvement%20covers%20a%20broad%20spectrum%20of%20activity.%20Over%20the%20past%20twenty%20years%2C%20officials%20of%20the%20State%20Department%2C%20the%20Central%20Intelligence%20Agency%2C%20and%20the%20U.S.%20armed%20forces%20have%3A&f=false) reported that:
QuoteEarly in the 1960s, during the Kennedy Administration, agents of the U.S. Government in El Salvador set up two official security organizations that killed thousands of peasants and suspected leftists over the next fifteen years. These organizations, guided by American operatives, developed into the paramilitary apparatus that came to be known as the Salvadoran Death Squads.
Today, even as the Reagan Administration publicly condemns the Death Squads, the CIA—in violation of U.S. law—continues to provide training, support, and intelligence to security forces directly involved in Death Squad activity.
Evidence of U.S. involvement covers a broad spectrum of activity. Over the past twenty years, officials of the State Department, the Central Intelligence Agency, and the U.S. armed forces have:
• conceived and organized ORDEN, the rural paramilitary and intelligence network described by Amnesty International as a movement designed "to use clandestine terror against government opponents." Out of ORDEN grew the notorious Mano Blanco, the White Hand, which a former U.S. ambassador to El Salvador, Raul H. Castro, has called "nothing less than the birth of the Death Squads";
• conceived and organized ANSESAL, the elite presidential intelligence services that gathered files on Salvadoran dissidents and, in the words of one U.S. official, relied on Death Squads as "the operative arm of intelligence gathering";
• enlisted General Jose Alberto "Chele" Medrano, the founder of ORDEN and ANSESAL, as a CIA agent; Described by Jose Napoleon Duarte as "the father of the Death Squads, the chief assassin of them all," he was awarded a silver medal by President Johnson "in recognition of exceptionally meritorious service."
• trained leaders of ORDEN in surveillance techniques and use of automatic weapons, and carried some of these leaders on the CIA payroll;
• provided American technical and intelligence advisers who often worked directly with ANSESAL at its headquarters in the Casa Presidencial;
• supplied ANSESAL, the security forces, and the general staff with electronic, photographic, and personal surveillance of individuals who were later assassinated by Death Squads. According to Colonel Nicolas Carranza, director of the Salvadoran Treasury Police, such intelligence sharing by U.S. agencies continues to this day;
• kept key security officials – including Carranza, Medrano, and others – on the CIA payroll. Though the evidence is less conclusive about Major Roberto D'Aubuisson, presidential candidate of the right wing ARENA party, some of his close associates describe him as a former recipient of CIA funding;
• furnished intelligence files that D'Aubuisson used for a series of 1980 television broadcasts in which he denounced dozens of academics, trade unionists, peasant leaders, Christian Democrats, and members of the clergy as communists or guerrilla collaborators. Many of the individuals D'Aubuisson named in his television speeches were subsequently assassinated. The broadcasts launched D'Aubuisson's political career and marked the emergence of the paramilitary front which later became ARENA;
• instructed Salvadoran intelligence operatives in the use of investigative techniques, combat weapons, explosives, and interrogation methods that included, according to a former Treasury Police agent "instruction in methods of physical and psychological torture";
• and, in the last decade, violated the Foreign Assistance Act of 1974, which prohibits spending U.S. funds "to provide training or advice or provide any financial support for police, prisons, or other law enforcement forces for any foreign government or any program of internal intelligence or surveillance on behalf of any foreign government";
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpro.corbis.com%2Fimages%2FU2016639.jpg%3Fsize%3D67%26amp%3Buid%3D%257B46A20BF3-A61F-4A69-9B35-075265908D79%257D&hash=33e451f16f7dac981ebfed21d7625b1ca286b17f)
Forgive me for opening Pandora's Box!
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/ (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/)
Washington's War on Labor in El Salvador
According to Allan Nairn's, (http://books.google.com/books?id=2n_vakG8NYIC&pg=PA444&dq=Interviews+with+dozens+of+current+and+former+civilians,+and+official+American+sources+disclose+a+pattern+of+sustained+US+participation+in+building+and+managing+the+Salvadoran+security+apparatus+that+relies+on+Death+Squad+assassinations+as+its+principal+means+of+enforcement.&hl=en&ei=I2tgTIKSK8L58Ab-gMG2DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Interviews%20with%20dozens%20of%20current%20and%20former%20civilians%2C%20and%20official%20American%20sources%20disclose%20a%20pattern%20of%20sustained%20US%20participation%20in%20building%20and%20managing%20the%20Salvadoran%20security%20apparatus%20that%20relies%20on%20Death%20Squad%20assassinations%20as%20its%20principal%20means%20of%20enforcement.&f=false) detailed study:
Quote[There is] a pattern of sustained U.S. participation in building and managing the Salvadoran security apparatus that relies on Death Squad assassinations as its principal means of enforcement.
The U.S. contribution extends far beyond training. American intelligence services have actually furnished the names, photographs, and whereabouts of suspected dissidents, say Salvadoran security officials.
According to Salvadoran Colonel involved in the process, the United States routinely receives copies of all major political surveillance reports compiled by Salvadoran security forces. In turn, U.S. provide the security forces with information. Colonel Carranza confirmed this relationship.
"The Americans would directly recieve all the information on a case even before we had developed the activity, before we decided how we would terminate a case," Corranza says, referring to the procedure in effect before 1983. "Now we give everything-in realtion to captures that the Treasury Police have made-to the general staff and they give it to the embassy."
US intelligence officials "have collaborated with us in a certain technical manner, providing us with advice," says Corranza. They receive information from everywhere in the world, and they have sophisticated equipment that enables them to better inform or at least confirm the information we have. It's very helpful."
Colonel Adolfo Blandon, the armed forces chief of staff, says "six or seven" US military advisers — several of them specialists in intelligence and psychological warfare — are currently working with the general staff.
The National Guard now concentrates on monitoring "unions and strikes and the penetration of the education system, where they are brainwashing our students," says Colonel Aristedes Napoleon Montes, director of the National Guard.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fce399.typepad.com%2F.a%2F6a00d8345257f969e20115720a441a970b-800wi&hash=427e798c396747699b5682a42f8887fde321ba5e)
As in the past, labor activists are a primary target. In violation of congressional legislation, the U.S. Trade Representative rejected a Human Rights petition to review El Salvador.
Human Rights Watch (http://books.google.com/books?id=-_zEq2PgKG8C&pg=PA105&dq=In+it's+1987+petition+to+GSP,+Americas+Watch++presented+fourty-three+instances+of+labor-rights+abuses,+including+unjust+arrests+and+torture.+When+USTR+did+not+accept+the+Americas+Watch+petition,+fourteen+congresspersons+dema%20nded+an+explanation.+USTR+answered+that+it+was+appropriate+for+the+El+Salvador+armed+forces+to+arrest,+interrogate,+and+imprison+trade+unionists+whom+the+US+Department+of+State+considered+opponents+of+the+Duarte+government.&hl=en&ei=sftZTJn8NoP58Abk25mZDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false) [formerly Americas Watch] reports:
QuoteIn it's 1987 petition to GSP, [Human Rights Watch] presented fourty-three instances of labor-rights abuses, including unjust arrests and torture. When USTR [US Trade Representative] did not accept the [Human Rights Watch] petition, fourteen congresspersons demanded an explanation.
USTR answered that it was appropriate for the El Salvador armed forces to arrest, interrogate, and imprison trade unionists whom the US Department of State considered opponents of the Duarte government.
I won't.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 14, 2011, 10:06:19 PM
You no like? Make it stop by debunking it. You can make it all go away. More coming so get to work.
The onus is on the person making the claim.
US Favorite Death Squads: The Treasury Police, National Guard, and National Police
The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/22/world/top-salvador-police-official-said-to-be-a-cia-informant.html) noted that:
QuoteThe Treasury police have long been considered the least disciplined and most brutal of the Salvadoran security forces .
Former CIA Station Chief, John Stockwell (http://books.google.com/books?id=lmv5QjZt1kMC&pg=PA74&dq=During+the+1980s,+the+CIA+created,+trained,+and+funded+death+squads+like+the+Treasury+Police+in+El+Salvador+who+have+been+responsible+for+killing+and+%22disappearing%22+as+many+as+70000+people+according+to+the+count+of+the+Catholic+Church.&hl=en&ei=WexSTJ-rE4WclgfQqcXdBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=During%20the%201980s%2C%20the%20CIA%20created%2C%20trained%2C%20and%20funded%20death%20squads%20like%20the%20Treasury%20Police%20in%20El%20Salvador%20who%20have%20been%20responsible%20for%20killing%20and%20%22disappearing%22%20as%20many%20as%2070000%20people%20according%20to%20the%20count%20of%20the%20Catholic%20Church.&f=false), observed that:
QuoteDuring the 1980s, the CIA created, trained, and funded death squads like the Treasury Police in El Salvador who have been responsible for killing and "disappearing" as many as 70000 people according to the count of the Catholic Church.
In an article entitled, "US TRAINS POLICE IN EL SALVADOR AS CONGRESS BAN IS LIFTED", the New York Times reports: (http://books.google.com/books?ei=X4ZgTPWYJsTflgejvbWaCA&ct=result&id=2P0iAQAAIAAJ&dq=The+New+York+Times%3A+US+TRAINS+POLICE+IN+EL+SALVADOR+AS+CONGRESS+BAN+IS+LIFTED+-+The+Reagan+Administration+has+begun+unrestricted+training+for+all+of+El+Salvador%27s+police+forces%2C+according+to+United+States+diplomats+here.+Three+weeks+ago+United+States+military+advisers+began+a+%245+million+program+to+train+and+equip+the+Salvadoran+national+police%2C+national+guard+and+treasury+police%2C+according+to+an+American+official.&q=The+New+York+Times%3A+US+TRAINS+POLICE+IN+EL+SALVADOR+AS+CONGRESS+BAN+IS+LIFTED+-+The+Reagan+Administration+has+begun+unrestricted+training+for+all+of+El+Salvador%27s+police+forces%2C+according+to+United+States+diplomats+here.+Three+weeks+ago+United+States+military+advisers+began+a+%245+million+program+to+train+and+equip+the+Salvadoran+National+Police%2C+National+Guard+and+Treasury+Police%2C+according+to+an+American+official.)
QuoteThe Reagan Administration has begun unrestricted training for all of El Salvador's police forces, according to United States diplomats here. Three weeks ago United States military advisers began a $5 million program to train and equip the Salvadoran National Police, National Guard and Treasury Police, according to an American official.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fclaudia.va.com.au%2Fcollateral_damage%2Fgrafix%2Fdead_children.jpg&hash=524ead5c4bc06664194c0622ffa36497739a696c)
In mid- 1985, Congress granted exemptions to El Salvador, and $4.8 million was allocated for training programmes for the National Police, the National Guard and the Treasury Police, which would be run by US advisers.
Human Rights Watch reports (http://books.google.com/books?id=beUKBa0wzwcC&pg=PA130&dq=These+per%20mitted+American+advisers+to+train+a+police+urban+commando+team+(responsible+for+the+military+seizure+of+a+hospital+in+an+attempt+to+break+a+strike:+),+an+urban+counterterrorism+unit,+Treasury+Police,+and+a+special+investigating+unit+to+be+used+in+politically+sensitive+crimes.&hl=en&ei=vEFYTICMEMGB8gadjqmDCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=These%20permitted%20American%20advisers%20to%20train%20a%20police%20urban%20commando%20team%20(responsible%20for%20the%20military%20seizure%20of%20a%20hospital%20in%20an%20attempt%20to%20break%20a%20strike%3A%20)%2C%20an%20urban%20counterterrorism%20unit%2C%20Treasury%20Police%2C%20and%20a%20special%20investigating%20unit%20to%20be%20used%20in%20politically%20sensitive%20crimes.&f=false) (formerly Americas Watch):
QuoteIn January 1986, Congress removed the hold it had placed on money from other sources that the Department of State wanted to use for police training in El Salvador. Currently, $4.8 million has been allocated for police training for the Salvadoran security forces. These permitted American advisers to train a police urban commando team (responsible for the military seizure of a hospital in an attempt to break a strike: ), an urban counterterrorism unit, Treasury Police, and a special investigating unit to be used for politically sensitive crimes.
Three of the 55 U.S. military advisers assigned to El Salvador will be in charge of training about 10 Salvadorans each, he said . One adviser will work with each security force, he said. Other aid includes trucks and police cars, car and hand held radios, and other police equipment.
[Human Rights Watch] believes the training the police is an extremely dangerous undertaking by the United States, which will become tarred in with the brush of the abuses commited by the security forces.
These problems were noted in the press as well:
QuoteThe new training program begun three weeks ago will help police forces, most of which have an unsavory record. The large intelligence units of the Treasury Police and the National Guard were once considered by American diplomats to be little more than standing Death Squads.
Human Rights Watch (http://books.google.com/books?id=beUKBa0wzwcC&pg=PA134&dq=Serious+questions+have+arisen+over+the+United+States'+commitment+to+eradicating+human+rights+abuses+in+El+Salvador+after+evidence+emerge+d+of+the+detention+and+torture+of+a+Salvadoran+employee+of+the+American+embassy+in+San+Salvador.&hl=en&ei=uq1ZTIX-DMujnQfJlMHlCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false) (formerly Americas Watch) then documents direct US complicity in the Treasury Police's Death Squad activities:
QuoteMenendez de Iglesias, was arrested in September 1985 . The role of the U.S. in her ordeal was outlined in an article that apeared several months later, in the Sunday Times of London:
QuoteSerious questions have arisen over the United States' commitment to eradicating human rights abuses in El Salvador after evidence emerged of the detention and torture of a Salvadoran employee of the American embassy in San Salvador.
The evidence shows that she was illegally arrested and interrogated by U.S. officials handed over to the Salvadoran Treasury Police -- a notoriously brutal security force -- repeatedly raped and tortured while in detention and further questioned by U.S. officials while in custody.
Menendez, an economics graduate fluent in English, was interrogated for four hours in the embassy by four American security agents who told her that if she did not "collaborate" they would use "all their power" to destroy her.
After the interrogation, Menendez was handed over, at the embassy gates, to the Treasury Police. She was detained at their headquarters for a further 15 days. Sunday Times inquiries confirm she was raped repeatedly during her detention, kept blindfolded, often completely naked and, during relentless interrogation sessions, was made to stand with her arms in the air.
The Treasury Police kept her awake with drugs and jets of cold water and she was told that her parents would be in danger if she did not co-operate. If she told her husband she had been raped, they said, "we'll kill him and bring you his head," a source told the Sunday Times.
Mrs. Menendez, who suffers from a heart condition, thought she was going to die. She was refused the attendance of a Priest. "All Priests are Communists," said her captors.
During her detention by the Treasury police, she was interrogated and threatened on three occasions by American security agents, who told her: "We pay the bills. We have a lot of power."
One agent told her she could be kept in the Treasury Police cell for 15 years, then given life imprisonment or made to "disappear" if she did not provide the information they wanted. "This is my speciality. I'm an expert at dealing with terrorists," he told her.
The embassy acknowledges that "at the request of the Salvadoran authorities," US officials did question Menendez at the police headquarters. During her interrogation by the Treasury Police, Menendez was made to sign a succession of pieces of paper and, after two weeks of torture, "confessed" to to being a guerrilla sympathizer.
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Here y'are, Mal. (http://www.freedomscientific.com/products/fs/jaws-product-page.asp)
I can't believe my eyes!
One of my staff uses it. You wouldn't believe your ears either.
It looks like a sound investment.
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Quote from: Horhey on Apr 14, 2011, 08:46:28 PM
Quote from: Purebreedalien on Apr 14, 2011, 08:44:27 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 14, 2011, 08:43:24 PM
Quote from: Purebreedalien on Apr 14, 2011, 08:31:03 PM
*Sees thread*
Hmm...
*Sees huge posts and conspiracy theories*
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f**k that shit!
*leaves*
Point out what you say are conspiracy theories please.
Oh, y'know, most of the stuff I skimmed through without reading properly. Basically TL ; DR.
Can you point to anything specific? Do you see any Alex Jones material here?
This whole thread is based on conspiracy theory. You're drawing lines and connecting dots when there aren't any to begin with.
The Atlacatl Battalion: "The Yankees' Battalion"
The Oxford Essential Dictionary of the U.S. Military (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O63-AtlacatlBattalion.html) states that:
QuoteAtlacatl Battalion - the first Salvadoran unit trained by the U.S. Army's Special Forces advisors early in 1981, a counter-insurgency group deployed on search-and-destroy missions, a key element in President Ronald Reagan's drive to ensure the ability of El Salvador's military to suppress rebellions.
It was commanded by Lt. Col. Domingo Monterrosa, well known as a rabid fighter and directly responsible for the slaughter of 733 Salvadoran peasants at El Mozote in December 1981. Salvadorans called the battalion "The Yankees' Battalion."
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Human Rights Watch (http://books.google.com/books?id=_c8umnadLwkC&pg=PA224&dq=The+Atlacatl+Battalion+is+an+elite+unit+created,+trained+and+equipped+by+the+United+States.+Almost+from+the+start,+the+Atlacatl+Battalion+%E2%80%94+the+first+Salvadoran+army+battalion+to+be+created+from+scratch+by+U.S.+funding+and+training&hl=en&ei=8JtgTJOyJYT48AbI5P23DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20Atlacatl%20Battalion%20is%20an%20elite%20unit%20created%2C%20trained%20and%20equipped%20by%20the%20United%20States.%20Almost%20from%20the%20start%2C%20the%20Atlacatl%20Battalion%20%E2%80%94%20the%20first%20Salvadoran%20army%20battalion%20to%20be%20created%20from%20scratch%20by%20U.S.%20funding%20and%20training&f=false) (formerly Americas Watch) observed that:
QuoteThe Atlacatl Battalion is an elite unit created, trained and equipped by the United States. Almost from the start, the Atlacatl Battalion — "the first Salvadoran army battalion to be created from scratch by U.S. funding and training" — was engaged in the murder of large numbers of civillians.
A visiting professor at the U.S. Army School of the Americas in Fort Benning, Georgia, recently described the Atlacatl soldiers as "particularly ferocious": "We've always had a hard time getting [them] to take prisoners instead of ears."
You mean the post where you made up a made up "US definition" for democracy and mentioned the pro-fascist puppet regime?
The El Mozote Massacre: 700-1000 Peasents Murdered by the "Yankees Battalion"
Human Rights Watch reports: (http://books.google.com/books?id=_c8umnadLwkC&pg=PA225&dq=In+December+1981,+soldiers+of+the+Atlacatl+Battalion+participated+in+a+search-and-destroy+operation+which+resulted+in+the+killing+of+over+700+civilians+in+nine+hamlets+in+Morazan+%E2%80%94+collectively+known+as+the+El+Mozote+massacre,+for+the+village+of+El+Mozote,+which+was+wiped+off+the+map.+Men+were+gathered+together,+blindfolded+and+murdered%3B+young+woman+were+raped+and+burned%3B+old+woman+were+taken+and+shot.+The+vast+majority+of+the+dead+were+elderly,+woman+and+children.&hl=en&ei=F3xhTMrXO4G88gbQusCYCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=In%20December%201981%2C%20soldiers%20of%20the%20Atlacatl%20Battalion%20participated%20in%20a%20search-and-destroy%20operation%20which%20resulted%20in%20the%20killing%20of%20over%20700%20civilians%20in%20nine%20hamlets%20in%20Morazan%20%E2%80%94%20collectively%20known%20as%20the%20El%20Mozote%20massacre%2C%20for%20the%20village%20of%20El%20Mozote%2C%20which%20was%20wiped%20off%20the%20map.%20Men%20were%20gathered%20together%2C%20blindfolded%20and%20murdered%3B%20young%20woman%20were%20raped%20and%20burned%3B%20old%20woman%20were%20taken%20and%20shot.%20The%20vast%20majority%20of%20the%20dead%20were%20elderly%2C%20woman%20and%20children.&f=false)
QuoteIn December 1981, soldiers of the Atlacatl Battalion participated in a search-and-destroy operation which resulted in the killing of over 700 civilians in nine hamlets in Morazan — collectively known as the El Mozote massacre, for the village of El Mozote, which was wiped off the map. Men were gathered together, blindfolded and murdered; young woman were raped and burned; old woman were taken and shot. The vast majority of the dead were elderly, woman and children.
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The New York Times noted that: (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/08/international/americas/08salvador.html?_r=1)
QuoteThe American-trained, American-financed Atlacatl Battalion decided to make an example of a town in the guerrilla stronghold of Morazán.
The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/08/international/americas/08salvador.html?_r=2) observed that:
Quotethe soldiers, from a battalion trained and equipped by the United States, accused the peasants of sympathizing with guerrillas.
News of the massacre first appeared in the world media on January 27, 1982 in two reports that were simultaneously published by the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/1982/01/27/world/massacre-of-hundreds-reported-in-salvador-village.html) and the Washington Post. (http://web.archive.org/web/20071116142355/http://backissues.cjrarchives.org/year/93/1/mozote.asp) Raymond Bonner wrote in the Times:
QuoteIt is clear that a massacre of major proportions occurred here last month. In some 20 mud brick huts here, this reporter saw the charred skulls and bones of dozens of bodies buried under burned-out roofs, beams, and shattered tiles.
Alma Guillermoprieto (http://www.columbia.edu/itc/journalism/j6075/edit/readings/guillermoprieto.pdf), who visited the village separately a few days later, wrote of:
Quotedozens of decomposing bodies still seen beneath the rubble and lying in nearby fields, despite the month that has passed since the incident.
In what had once been a white-washed church:
Quotecountless bits of bones — skulls, rib cages, femurs, a spinal column — poked out of the rubble.
Both reporters spoke to a woman named Rufina Amaya who said she had escaped in the confusion and hidden in a tree. She told the reporters that the soldiers killed her husband, her nine-year-old son, and her three daughters aged five, three, and eight months. "Mama, they are killing us" - 9-year-old son of Rufina Amaya. The soldiers set piles of bodies on fire, she said, and then left. The villagers gave Bonner a list of 733 names — mostly children, women, and old people — all of whom, they claimed, had been murdered by government soldiers:
QuoteThe soldiers from the Atlacatl Battalion came at seven in the morning. They said they had orders to kill everyone. Nobody was to remain alive. They locked the women in the houses and the men in the church. There were 1,100 of us in all. The children were with the women. They kept us locked up all morning. At ten o'clock the soldiers began to kill the men who were in the church. First they machine- gunned them and then they slit their throats.
By two o'clock the soldiers had finished killing the men and they came for the women. They left the children locked up. They separated me from my eight-month old daughter and my oldest son. They took us away to kill us. As we came to the place where they were going to kill us, I was able to slip away and hide under a small bush, covering myself with the branches. I watched the soldiers line up twenty women and machine-gun them. Then they brought another group. Another rain of bullets. Then another group. And another.
They killed four of my children: my nine-year-old, my six-year-old, my three-year-old, and my eight-month-old daughter. My husband was killed, too. I spent seven days and nights alone in the hills with nothing to eat or drink. I couldn't find anyone else; the soldiers had killed everyone. God allowed me to live so that I can testify how the Army killed the men and women and burned their bodies. I didn't see them kill the children, but I heard the children's screams.
The Associated Press (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-156601729.html) pointed out:
QuoteIt was Dec. 11, 1981, and the Reagan administration thought it appropriate to use that day - International Human Rights Day - to swear in a new human rights chief. By the cruelest of ironies, an American-trained military battalion operating in a pastoral mountain setting in the northern part of El Salvador was committing perhaps the worst atrocity in a war notorious for brutality. As many as 1,000 Salvadoran men, women and children - almost all civilians - were put to death in a massacre that began on Human Rights Day.
Human Rights Watch (http://books.google.com/books?id=_c8umnadLwkC&pg=PA225&dq=In+September+1983,+Atlacatl+Battalion+soldiers+took+part+in+an+operation+in+which+civilians+were+bombed+from+the+air+in+Tenancingo.+Dozens+were+killed+and+Colonel+Domingo+Monterrosa,+commander+of+the+Atlacatl,+asked+residents+to+%22please+understand+the+situation,+it+was+an+exception.%22&hl=en&ei=ArNhTKyQDMH-8AaavMSPCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=In%20September%201983%2C%20Atlacatl%20Battalion%20soldiers%20took%20part%20in%20an%20operation%20in%20which%20civilians%20were%20bombed%20from%20the%20air%20in%20Tenancingo.%20Dozens%20were%20killed%20and%20Colonel%20Domingo%20Monterrosa%2C%20commander%20of%20the%20Atlacatl%2C%20asked%20residents%20to%20%22please%20understand%20the%20situation%2C%20it%20was%20an%20exception.%22&f=false) further documents large scale massacres by Washington's Atlacatl Battalion aka the "Yankees Battalion" for the 1983-84 period:
QuoteIn September 1983, Atlacatl Battalion soldiers took part in an operation in which civilians were bombed from the air in Tenancingo. Dozens were killed and Colonel Domingo Monterrosa, commander of the Atlacatl, asked residents to "please understand the situation, it was an exception."
In mid-November Atlacatl soldiers killed dozens more civilians in the towns of Copapayo, San Nicolas and La Escopeta. Twenty woman and children were drowned when troops firing automatic weapons drove them into Lake Suchitlan.
In July 1984 soldiers of the Atlacatl Battalion murdered 68 civilians in the vicinity of Los Llanitos, Cabanas. Most os the dead were woman, elderly and children. Troops burned the majority of the bodies. The governmental Human Rights Commission later admitted that the Army killed 80 non-combatants in Cabanas.
One month later, Atlacatl soldiers killed at least 50 civilians on the banks of the Gualsinga River, near Las Vueltas and El Tamarindo, Chalatenango. Families who were fleeing an August 28 mortar shelling were the next day gunned down or drowned when they jumped into the seasonally high Gualsinga River.
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Yes, and that has what to do with what? Mind you this whole thing is supposed to be leading up to showing the fascist puppet regime and why the US government is a shame, and/or why the election is worthless. Get to it.
Actions made at one time, by a different administration, does not apply throughout every administration and the government's existence.
EDIT- STOP DOUBLE POSTING.
The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/1982/01/11/world/us-advisers-saw-torture-class-salvadoran-says.html) published an interview with another deserter from the Salvadoran Army who describes a class overseen by US military advisers where severe methods of torture are demonstrated on teenage prisoners. According to Mr. Gómez:
Quote"Eight United States military advisers, some in uniforms of solid green and others in jungle camouflage fatigues, stood in the shade with the Salvadoran Air Force commander and several other senior Salvadoran officers during the torture sesions."
Before the Americans arrived in mid-January, he said, his paratroop batallion was told by Salvadoran officers that, in addition to the rifles and other weapons being provided by the United States, members of the "famous Green Berets" were being sent as "new instructors."
In addition to the soldiers who were introduced as Green Berets, Mr. Gómez went on, there were other United States military personnel at the Ilopango Air Force Base who wore solid green flight suits."
A United States Embassy spokesman in San Salvador said that these five soldiers were officers from the Special Forces -- Green Berets -- unit of the United States Southern Command in Panama.
Mr. Gómez said that before one of the torture sessions the assembled troops were told by a Salvadoran officer that watching "will make you feel more like a man." He said that the officer added that the soldiers should "not feel pity of anyone," but only "hate for those who are enemies of our country."
The sessions, which he said were known as "torture classes." At the first torture session, Mr. Gómez said, a masked Salvadoran soldier jabbed the tip of his bayonet into the chest and rib cage of a 17-year-old youth. Mr. Gómez said he recognized the youth as one of a group of nine captured the previous night in a raid on a house in the capital in which he himself took part. He said that the masked soldier, applying his boot as leverage, broke the youth's arm at the elbow. After further tortures, he said, the youth was killed. During the second session, which Mr. Gómez said was held after Sunday mass, a 13-year-old girl who had also been captured in the raid was similarly tortured and killed.
According to Mr. Gómez, many guerrillas or people suspected of being guerrilla sympathizers were dropped alive into the sea from helicopters. On other occasions, he said, bodies were discarded along roads after the faces had been slashed so they could not be identified.
"What happens here, what you see here, what you hear here, stays here," Mr. Gómez said soldiers were told before they were allowed to leave. They were reminded that if they talked to anyone "we will find out and you know what will happen to you," Mr. Gómez said.
Mr. Gómez said that his paratroop unit received training from two United States advisers. During their missions, according to Mr. Gómez, soldiers were instructed by their officers and senior enlisted men to kill anyone, including old people, women and chldren, "who put themselves in front of you." He said that some younger officers talked about the importance of friendship with the Salvadoran people, but the soldiers were told that "the majority of the peasants are guerrillas."
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I did, when you posted it. Still stand where I have, echoing what Doom said at the top of this page. Especially when you misunderstand things Obama said in opposition to things enacted under the Bush era (ie: the 2002 coup support). Thats why Chavez himself was hopeful of a decent relationship with the Obama admin.
Little notice was taken of the significant increase in state terror after the Esquipulas II accords; or of an Amnesty International report (http://books.google.com/books?ei=BJ5YTN2vMI_U9ATUibTsBw&ct=result&id=_ttHAAAAYAAJ&dq=Coffins+have+sometimes+been+delivered+to+the+homes+of+people+targeted+for+intimidation+and+an+atmosphere+of+terror+created+by+the+%22death+squad%22+style+of+killing+and+mutilating+victims+in+the+most+macabre+way.+Victims+are+customarily+found+mutilated%2C+decapitated%2C+dismembered%2C+strangled+or+showing+marks+of+torture+%28such+as+burns+or+machete+wounds%29+or+rape&q=Threats+in+the+name+of++%22death+squads%22+are+also+made+by+telephone+or+in+anonymous+notes%2C+warning+intended+victims+to+leave+the+country+or+stop+their+activities.+Coffins+have+sometimes+been+delivered+to+the+homes+of+people+targeted+for+intimidation+and+an+atmosphere+of+terror+created+by+the+%22death+squad%22+style+of+killing+and+mutilating+victims+in+the+most+macabre+way.+Victims+are+customarily+found+mutilated%2C+decapitated%2C+dismembered%2C+strangled+or+showing+marks+of+torture+%28such+as+burns+or+machete+wounds%29+or+rape) entitled El Salvador: "Death Squads" -- A Government Strategy (October 1998, reporting the "alarming rise" in killings by official death squads as part of the government strategy of intimidating any potential opposition:
QuoteThreats in the name of "death squads" are also made by telephone or in anonymous notes, warning intended victims to leave the country or stop their activities. Coffins have sometimes been delivered to the homes of people targeted for intimidation and an atmosphere of terror created by the "death-squad"-style of killing and mutilating victims in the most macabre way. Victims are customarily found mutilated, decapitated, dismembered, strangled or showing marks of torture (such as burns or machete wounds) or rape.
Since the goal of the government strategy is "to intimidate or coerce a civilian population" (that is, terrorism, as officially defined in the US Code), it is not enough simply to kill. Rather, bodies must be left dismembered by the roadside, and women must be found hanging from trees by their hair with their faces painted red and their breasts cut off, while domestic elites pretend not to see as they continue to arm, fund, train, and support the murderers and torturers.
The Washington Post reports: (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-1282900.html)
QuoteSenior members of the Reagan administration allowed the sharing of military intelligence with right-wing Salvadoran death squads, according to U.S. and Salvadoran government officials and congressional documents.
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Covert Action Quarterly reports: (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/deathsquads_ElSal.html)
QuoteDeath Squad Members, Testimony
Cesar Vielman Joya Martinez, a soldier in the First Infantry Brigade's Department 2 (Intelligence), is the most recent Salvadoran to admit his involvement in death squad activity. At a November 1, 1989 press conference Joya Martinez stated that certain military units in Department 2 carried out "heavy interrogation" (a euphemism for torture) after which the victims were killed. The job of his unit was to execute people by strangulation, slitting their throats, or injecting them with poison. He admitted killing eight people and participating in many more executions. He stated that the Brigade Commander had sent written orders to carry out the killings and that the use of bullets was forbidden because they might be traced to the military.
Joya Martinez also claims that one of the U.S. advisers working with the First Brigade sat at a desk next to his and received "all the reports from our agents on clandestine captures, interrogations...but we did not provide them with reports on the executions. They did not want to hear of the actual killings." U.S. advisers authorized expenses for such extras as black glass on squad vans to allow executions to take place unobserved; provided $4,000 for the monthly budget; and conducted classes in recruiting informants and conducting intelligence reconnaissance.
Another Salvadoran soldier, Ricardo Castro, is the first officer to come forward with information about death squad activity. Castro graduated from West Point in 1973 and was a company commander in the Salvadoran Army. He translated for several U.S. advisers who taught, among other subjects, interrogation techniques. Castro claims that one U.S. instructor worked out of the Sheraton Hotel (taken over briefly during the November 1989 FMLN offensive) and emphasized psychological techniques. Castro recalled a class where Salvadoran soldiers asked the adviser about an impasse in their torture sessions:
"He was obviously against torture a lot of the time. He favored selective torture.... When they learned some thing in class, they might go back to their fort that night and practice.... I remember very distinctly some students talking about the fact that people were conking out on them...as they were administering electric shock. 'We keep giving him the electric shock, and he just doesn't respond. What can we do?'.... The American gave a broad smile and said, 'You've got to surprise him. We know this from experience. Give him a jolt. Do something that will just completely amaze him, and that should bring him out of it."
Castro revealed that he held monthly briefings with then deputy CIA chief of station in El Salvador Frederic Brugger who had recruited him for intelligence work after meeting at an interrogation class. Castro also claimed to have knowledge of the perpetration of large massacres of civilians by Army Department.
In December 1981, he met in Morazan Province with one of the officers that the U.S. instructor had advised. "They had two towns of about 300 people each, and they were interrogating them to see what they knew. Since I...knew something about interrogations, he said he might want me to help. The Major told me that after the interrogation, they were going to kill them all."
Castro was, however, reassigned and did not participate. Later, his pro-government mother told him, "You know, son, these guerrillas, they invent the wildest lies. They say that in December, 600 civilians were killed in Morazan." "Oh, (*)(*)(*)(*), I was hoping I'd been dreaming it," he thought. "I later found out, they did go in and kill them after all."
Rene Hurtado worked as intelligence agent for the Treasury Police, one of the three Salvadoran paramilitary forces. After a falling out with an officer, he fled to Minnesota, took refuge with a Presbyterian Church congregation, and began describing routine torture methods used by paramilitary forces. These included beatings, electric shock, suffocation, and mutilation.
He described techniques such as tearing the skin from " interrogation" subjects, sticking needles into them, or beating them in such a manner that lasting internal injuries but no telltale external marks would be sustained. According to Hurtado, CIA employees and Green Berets taught some of these torture techniques to the Treasury Police in Army staff headquarters.
I gotta say this is probably one of the more interesting threads on these forums lately.
And I agree, and I think it'd be more helpful of users to, rather than posting 'lol you conspiracy', try and confront these posts with likewise retorts, that is - use sources, quotes, etc. Saying "That's a misinterpretation," without explaining why it's an misinterpretation does not help. Likewise crying foul because the posts concern America does not help, [America being a bogey man has become such a staple of crap movies that people roll their eyes when they hear about real-life events]. If the information is from the State Department, then pay attention to it, if you disagree with it, actually arguing against it rather than making jokes will help your case. There must be about 7 pages worth of 'lol wut're you even talking about?' Please help those of us who are 1) interested, and 2) not as well versed in American politics as you apparently are. I'd love to see an even sided debate between two parties here but it's just not happening. Could we make it?
As one of my favorite philosophers, J.T. Parker, once said, "I've heard enough of this and I'm asking you to pull the plug."
So I guess I'm resigned to the fence, though I'm afraid of aligning with Horhey simply out of the lack of counter-argument.
The thing is, how is a balanced argument going to come out of this? Horhey is convinced that everything is connected, I don't. And there's no way to prove either of us is wrong.
Interesting thread though, I agree.
Quote from: Vulhala on Apr 15, 2011, 12:29:47 PM
The thing is, how is a balanced argument going to come out of this? Horhey is convinced that everything is connected, I don't. And there's no way to prove either of us is wrong.
Interesting thread though, I agree.
I'm sure there is a way. We usually don't have such troubles in Alien-related threads, or even the other political threads. So many people object, and I would like to see measured responses, because I find both sides potentially interesting, but one side is refusing to talk to the other, instead resorting to making fun of the OP or leaving useless
thanksforplaying comments like 'TL;DR'. It isn't really much of a secret that the CIA has been involved with shady, even illegal stuff. I don't see a critique on them as an attack on American citizens, absolutely not, and I don't see where Horhey has identified them as his targets. In fact, i remember him positively identifying the CIA themselves as his target. And when you're source is official State Department records, then you've at least got a good base to argue from -- so, rebuttals that are likewise would be appreciated. For the sake of a constructive conversation, that is. I'd love to see that from some of the posters here, who have proven to be VERY knowledgeable in many matters.
Well it's absolutely no secret that the CIA basically did whatever the hell they wanted. I watched The Kennedys last night (f**king GREAT show by the way), and it featured the Bay Of Pigs incident, which was a CIA devised clusterf**k.
I just don't see how you can go from that to 'Everything is related and connected to an overarching plan to control the world through dubious foreign policy."
Quote from: Vulhala on Apr 15, 2011, 12:40:52 PM
Well it's absolutely no secret that the CIA basically did whatever the hell they wanted. I watched The Kennedys last night (f**king GREAT show by the way), and it featured the Bay Of Pigs incident, which was a CIA devised clusterf**k.
I just don't see how you can go from that to 'Everything is related and connected to an overarching plan to control the world through dubious foreign policy."
There's also MKULTRA, they were scolded by Gerald Ford for that [illegaly testing drugs on the populace, that is], and numerous attempts on Castro's life because he privatised everything and kicked out the United Fruit company, and encouraged likewise revolution in the South Americas. Of course, I think it makes sense that if you want to get resources and exert influence for your own gain, then you meddle. Every empire has done this, and many countries aside from the US still do it too. Horhey's concentration on North America's interest in South America is what I find interesting, because they
do have interests there, and they have been known to meddle there. That's what I want to explore. It's not an attack on America, nor its citizenry, as some knee-jerk reactions proclaim, just as looking at MI6 isn't an attack on the UK. It's a critique of the CIA, for sure. I would still like to see thoughful responses from both sides. That'd be a real worthy thread.
I'm going to have to side with Valaquen on this. I may not agree with Horhey on all issues, but I'm waiting for someone to prove him wrong instead of slamming him. He may very well be a conspiracy theorist, but I'd like someone to point out directly how. Even if its in the interest of keeping these forums above "what did you eat for breakfast and is it canon" level.
Edit: Im looking at you Mal, if anyone is going to give an in depth, well structured opposing point of view it is you ;)
The Boston Globe reports: (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-8165042.html)
QuoteFor the second time in five months, a Salvadoran defecting to the United States has reported the existence of a U.S. army intelligence unit that worked with death squads to execute political enemies. A woman who identified herself by her code name, Blanca, partially supported assertions last October by a man she said was her supervisor, Cesar Joya Martinez.
Martinez, in allegations that were widely reported last fall in the US media, said he worked for a death squad in San Salvador's First Brigade intelligence operation. The unit, Martinez said, is funded entirely by U.S. advisers.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcjrarchive.org%2Fimg%2Fposts%2FMeiselas11.jpg&hash=27fb6360c7812ae69932f369216709a50a364611)
In the "fledgling democracy" that is El Salvador, teenagers as young as 13 were scooped up in sweeps of slums and refugee camps and forced to become soldiers. They were indoctrinated with rituals adopted from the Nazi SS, including brutalisation and rape, to prepare them for killings that often have sexual and satanic overtones.
The nature of Salvadoran army training was described by a deserter who received political asylum in Texas in 1990, despite the State Department's request that he be sent back to El Salvador. (His name was withheld by the court to protect him from Salvadoran death squads.)
According to this deserter: (http://books.google.com/books?id=HEcfAQAAIAAJ&q=draftees+were+made+to+kill+dogs+and+vultures+by+biting+their+throats+and+twisting+off+their+heads,+and+had+to+watch+as+soldiers+tortured+and+killed+suspected+dissidents+--+tearing+out+their+fingernails,+cutting+off+their+heads,+chopping+their+bodies+to+pieces+and+playing+with+the+dismembered+arms+for+fun.&dq=draftees+were+made+to+kill+dogs+and+vultures+by+biting+their+throats+and+twisting+off+their+heads,+and+had+to+watch+as+soldiers+tortured+and+killed+suspected+dissidents+--+tearing+out+their+fingernails,+cutting+off+their+heads,+chopping+their+bodies+to+pieces+and+playing+with+the+dismembered+arms+for+fun.&hl=en&ei=hYtUTJ_FDsL38AbuzsjhCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ)
Quotedraftees were made to kill dogs and vultures by biting their throats and twisting off their heads, and had to watch as soldiers tortured and killed suspected dissidents -- tearing out their fingernails, cutting off their heads, chopping their bodies to pieces and playing with the dismembered arms for fun.
The results of Salvadoran military training are graphically described in the Jesuit journal America by Daniel Santiago (http://books.google.com/books?id=CcpaAAAAMAAJ&q=People+were+not+just+killed+by+death+squads+in+El+Salvador%E2%80%94+they+were+decapitated+and+then+their+heads+were+placed+on+pikes+and+used+to+dot+the+landscape.+Men+were+not+just+disemboweled+by+the+Salvadoran+treasury+police%3B+their+severed+genitalia+are+stuffed+into+their+mouths.+Salvadoran+women+are+not+just+raped+by+the+National+Guard%3B+their+wombs+are+cut+from+their+bodies+and+used+to+cover+their+faces.+It+is+not+enough+to+kill+children%3B+they+are+dragged+over+barbed+wire+until+the+flesh+falls+from+their+bones,+while+parents+are+forced+to+watch.&dq=People+were+not+just+killed+by+death+squads+in+El+Salvador%E2%80%94+they+were+decapitated+and+then+their+heads+were+placed+on+pikes+and+used+to+dot+the+landscape.+Men+were+not+just+disemboweled+by+the+Salvadoran+treasury+police%3B+their+severed+genitalia+are+stuffed+into+their+mouths.+Salvadoran+women+are+not+just+raped+by+the+National+Guard%3B+their+wombs+are+cut+from+their+bodies+and+used+to+cover+their+faces.+It+is+not+enough+to+kill+children%3B+they+are+dragged+over+barbed+wire+until+the+flesh+falls+from+their+bones,+while+parents+are+forced+to+watch.&hl=en&ei=OYpUTLuwFYL-8Aay2aWuCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA), a Catholic priest working in El Salvador. He tells of a peasant woman who returned home one day to find her three children, her mother and her sister sitting around a table, each with its own decapitated head placed carefully on the table in front of the body, the hands arranged on top "as if each body was stroking its own head."
The assassins, from the Salvadoran National Guard, had found it hard to keep the head of an 18-month-old baby in place, so they nailed the hands onto it. A large plastic bowl filled with blood was tastefully displayed in the center of the table. According to Rev. Santiago, macabre scenes of this kind aren't uncommon:
QuotePeople were not just killed by death squads in El Salvador— they were decapitated and then their heads were placed on pikes and used to dot the landscape. Men were not just disemboweled by the Salvadoran Treasury Police; their severed genitalia are stuffed into their mouths.
Salvadoran women are not just raped by the National Guard; their wombs are cut from their bodies and used to cover their faces. It is not enough to kill children; they are dragged over barbed wire until the flesh falls from their bones, while parents are forced to watch.
Rev. Santiago goes on to point out that violence of this sort greatly increased when the Church began forming peasant associations and self-help groups in an attempt to organise the poor.
Quote from: Valaquen on Apr 15, 2011, 12:55:09 PM
Quote from: Vulhala on Apr 15, 2011, 12:40:52 PM
Well it's absolutely no secret that the CIA basically did whatever the hell they wanted. I watched The Kennedys last night (f**king GREAT show by the way), and it featured the Bay Of Pigs incident, which was a CIA devised clusterf**k.
I just don't see how you can go from that to 'Everything is related and connected to an overarching plan to control the world through dubious foreign policy."
There's also MKULTRA, they were scolded by Gerald Ford for that [illegaly testing drugs on the populace, that is],
This is true, what Valaquen has stated about testing drugs on unsuspecting people. While I was in school (a long long time ago) radiation was being put in our school food and the results were documented. They used to make announcements over the school PA system that if you had"burning eyes" or "nose bleeds" etc to report to the school nurse. No joke. It was brought out later, because many people in my age group have had multiple bouts of cancer (believe it or not I have had 2 very minor at young ages). From what we have been told later was that it was because of the cold war with Russia and they were dong the same. I don't have all of the facts, only experiences and the explanations given.
Not a government conspiratist, but lived long enough to see many variations of dirty deeds done by a majority of governing bodies multinationally. It is not going away, it is not new. It's just the way it is, no one is really the "good guys" you just have to decide what you will stand behind to be accountable for.
"Democracy Enhancement"
Reaganite scholar and the Vice President for Studies at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Thomas Carothers wrote the standard scholarly work on U.S. democracy promotion in Latin America in the 1980's.
He writes in part, from an insider's perspective, having served in Reagan's State Department during the 'democracy enhancement' programmes in Central America. He regards these programs as having been a systematic failure:
QuoteThe Reagan administration (http://books.google.com/books?id=ZE5-AAAAMAAJ&q=The+Reagan+administration+was+trying+to+support+the+military+governments+that+were+on+the+way+out+if+anything,+the+U.S.+policy+of+that+period+worked+against+the+democratic+trend.&dq=The+Reagan+administration+was+trying+to+support+the+military+governments+that+were+on+the+way+out+if+anything,+the+U.S.+policy+of+that+period+worked+against+the+democratic+trend.&hl=en&ei=FuJiTL_-PIOBlAfE4cHHCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ) was trying to support the military governments that were on the way out if anything, the U.S. policy in that period worked against the democratic trend.
The underlying U.S. goal (http://books.google.com/books?id=1NDaha23lSAC&pg=PA249&dq=The+underlying+U.S.+goal+is+maintaining+the+basic+societal+orders+of+particular+Latin+American+countries+approximately+as+they+are-ensuring+that+the+economics+are+not+drastically+rearranged+and+that+the+power+relations+of+the+various+social+sectors+are+not+turned+upside+down.+The+impulse+is+to+promote+democratic+change,+but+the+underlying+objective+is+to+maintain+the+basic+order+of+what,+historically+at+least,+are+quite+undemocratic+societies.+The+United+States+mitigates+this+tension+by+promoting+very+limited,+controlled+forms+of+democratic+change.+The+deep+fear+in+the+United+States+government+of+populist-based+change+in+Latin+America-with+all+its+implications+for+upsetting+established+economic+and+political+orders+and+heading+off+in+a+leftist+direction-+leads+to+an+emphasis+on+incremental+change+from+the+top+down.&hl=en&ei=x7ViTOLwM4WBlAfnl_iSCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20underlying%20U.S.%20goal%20is%20maintaining%20the%20basic%20societal%20orders%20of%20particular%20Latin%20American%20countries%20approximately%20as%20they%20are-ensuring%20that%20the%20economics%20are%20not%20drastically%20rearranged%20and%20that%20the%20power%20relations%20of%20the%20various%20social%20sectors%20are%20not%20turned%20upside%20down.%20The%20impulse%20is%20to%20promote%20democratic%20change%2C%20but%20the%20underlying%20objective%20is%20to%20maintain%20the%20basic%20order%20of%20what%2C%20historically%20at%20least%2C%20are%20quite%20undemocratic%20societies.%20The%20United%20States%20mitigates%20this%20tension%20by%20promoting%20very%20limited%2C%20controlled%20forms%20of%20democratic%20change.%20The%20deep%20fear%20in%20the%20United%20States%20government%20of%20populist-based%20change%20in%20Latin%20America-with%20all%20its%20implications%20for%20upsetting%20established%20economic%20and%20political%20orders%20and%20heading%20off%20in%20a%20leftist%20direction-%20leads%20to%20an%20emphasis%20on%20incremental%20change%20from%20the%20top%20down.&f=false) is maintaining the basic societal orders of particular Latin American countries approximately as they are-ensuring that the economics are not drastically rearranged and that the power relations of the various social sectors are not turned upside down. The underlying objective is to maintain the basic order of what, historically at least, are quite undemocratic societies.
The deep fear in the United States government of populist-based change in Latin America-with all its implications for upsetting established economic and political orders and heading off in a leftist direction- leads to an emphasis on incremental change from the top down.
The Reagan administration (http://books.google.com/books?ei=A1BQTPTnOIG0lQfbpeS5CQ&ct=result&id=ZE5-AAAAMAAJ&dq=came+to+adopt+prodemocracy+policies+as+a+means+of+relieving+pressure+for+more+radical+change%2C+but+inevitably+sought+only+limited%2C+top-down+forms+of+democratic+change+that+did+not+risk+upsetting+the+traditional+structures+of+power+with+which+the+United+States+has+long+been+allied&q=The+Reagan+administration+came+to+adopt+prodemocracy+policies+as+a+means+of+relieving+pressure+for+more+radical+change%2C+but+inevitably+sought+only+limited%2C+top-down+forms+of+democratic+change+that+did+not+risk+upsetting+the+traditional+structures+of+power+with+which+the+United+States+has+long+been+allied.) came to adopt prodemocracy policies as a means of relieving pressure for more radical change, but inevitably sought only limited, top-down forms of democratic change that did not risk upsetting the traditional structures of power with which the United States has long been allied.
The proudest achievement was El Salvador. Here, the Reagan administration (http://books.google.com/books?id=1NDaha23lSAC&pg=PA29&dq=ensuring+that+technically+credible+elections+were+held+and+that+the+Christian+democratic+candidate,+Jose+Napoleon+Duarte,+won.&hl=en&ei=SOVhTKvdEsGB8gbYtomJCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ensuring%20that%20technically%20credible%20elections%20were%20held%20and%20that%20the%20Christian%20democratic%20candidate%2C%20Jose%20Napoleon%20Duarte%2C%20won.&f=false) sought two goals:
Quoteensuring that technically credible elections were held and that the Christian democratic candidate, Jose Napoleon Duarte, won.
The administration (http://books.google.com/books?ei=OUAJTInWLIKKONzEpdMP&ct=result&id=ZE5-AAAAMAAJ&dq=The+administration+could+not+conceive+of+an+El+Salvador+in+which+the+military+was+not+the+dominant+actor%2C+the+economic+elite+no+longer+held+the+national+economy+in+its+hands%2C+the+left+was+incorporated+into+the+political+system%2C+and+all+Salvadorans+actually+had+both+the+formal+and+substantial+possibility+of+political+participation.+In+short%2C+the+US+government+had+no+real+conception+of+democracy+in+El+Salvador&q=The+administration+could+not+conceive+of+an+El+Salvador+in+which+the+military+was+not+the+dominant+actor%2C+the+economic+elite+no+longer+held+the+national+economy+in+its+hands%2C+the+left+was+incorporated+into+the+political+system%2C+and+all+Salvadorans+actually+had+both+the+formal+and+substantial+possibility+of+political+participation.+In+short%2C+the+US+government+had+no+real+conception+of+democracy+in+El+Salvador.) could not conceive of an El Salvador in which the military was not the dominant actor, the economic elite no longer held the national economy in its hands, the left was incorporated into the political system, and all Salvadorans actually had both the formal and substantial possibility of political participation. In short, the US government had no real conception of democracy in El Salvador.
While "democracy enhancement" was proceeding in this manner, Washington's death squads were slaughtering the opposition by the tens of thousands, carrying out hideous torture and other atrocities, and destroying the independent press.
A January 1994 conference on state terror organized by Jesuits Priests (http://www.envio.org.ni/articulo/1746) (those who survived that is) in San Salvador observed that:
Quoteit is important to explore . . . what weight the culture of terror has had in domesticating the expectations of the majority vis-a-vis alternatives different to those of the powerful.
That is the crucial point, wherever such methods are used to subdue the "internal enemy."
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Quote from: AliceApocalypse on Apr 15, 2011, 04:35:19 PM]
This is true, what Valaquen has stated about testing drugs on unsuspecting people. While I was in school (a long long time ago) radiation was being put in our school food and the results were documented. They used to make announcements over the school PA system that if you had"burning eyes" or "nose bleeds" etc to report to the school nurse. No joke. It was brought out later, because many people in my age group have had multiple bouts of cancer (believe it or not I have had 2 very minor at young ages). From what we have been told later was that it was because of the cold war with Russia and they were dong the same. I don't have all of the facts, only experiences and the explanations given.
That's chilling. Please tell me you sued the ass out of them?
Part 3: The Bush Team's Death Squad Record
In an article titled "Subsidizing Slaughter", Mary McGrory of the Washington Post (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-1224223.html) observed that:
Quoteonce again, Congress chose violence in El Salvador, voting to subsidize death squads, voting to go back where we started, with the corpses of church people whose murder we financed. Why, in the wake of the latest atrocity, the slaughter of six Jesuits, their cook and her daughter, does Congress blast ahead with more guns for a country that is sinking into bloody anarchy?
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In November 1989, six Jesuit priests, their cook and her daughter, were murdered by the "Yankees Battalion."
The Los Angeles Times noted that: (http://articles.latimes.com/1989-11-19/news/mn-350_1_salvadoran-priests)
QuoteJesuits have always wanted peace with justice--not war, but justice, and there you touch very profound (economic) structures. That is why they were killed.
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The Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/1992-12-09/news/mn-1714_1_atlacatl-battalion) pointed out that:
Quotethe Atlacatl Battalion is the largest and oldest of El Salvador's elite U.S.-trained counterinsurgency battalions, a unit that came to symbolize both the most aggressive in fighting and the worst in atrocities.
The Atlacatl Battalion was being trained by US Special Forces shortly before murdering the Jesuits. This has been a pattern throughout the Battalion's existence -- some of its worst massacres have occurred when it was fresh from US training.
That same week, at least 28 other Salvadoran civilians were murdered, including the head of a major union, the leader of the organisation of university women, nine members of an Indian farming cooperative and ten university students. The news wires carried a story by AP correspondent Douglas Grant Mine (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1955&dat=19891129&id=ucIzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JOYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2503,8256135), reporting how soldiers had entered a working-class neighbourhood in the capital city of San Salvador, captured six men, added a 14-year-old boy for good measure, then lined them all up against a wall and shot them. They "were not priests or human rights campaigners," Mine wrote, "so their deaths have gone largely unnoticed" - as did his story.
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The Bush administration continued the Death Squad massacres untill the end of their term in 1992. Declassified documents show as late as 1990, Washington was still providing training, equipment and advice to the Neo-Nazi, Major Roberto D'Aubuisson's Death Squad network in El Salvador.
In an article entitled, "In 1990, U.S. Was Still Training Salvador Civilians Tied to Killings", The New York Times revealed that: (http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/14/world/in-1990-us-was-still-training-salvador-civilians-tied-to-killings.html)
QuoteAmerican military officers in El Salvador trained a group of wealthy Salvadorans associated with right-wing death squads, State Department documents show. The documents are the first to describe Americans training civilians tied to political killings in El Salvador, and the first to link American support to Salvadoran death-squad activities in the 1990's. Called 'Gun-Toting Extremists'
"My worst fears are realized," the United States Ambassador, William G. Walker, said in a cable to the State Department in October 1990. The Ambassador said he had learned that American officers were giving weekly military training to 50 to 60 wealthy Salvadorans who called themselves Los Patrioticos, the Patriotic Ones.
Citing United States intelligence reports, he said "the unit was being used as a cover for death-squad activities". The group was affiliated with Roberto D'Aubuisson, a right-wing politician identified this year by a United Nations-sponsored investigation of rights abuses in El Salvador as the mastermind of the nation's death squads.
Those documents and a United Nations investigation showed that the Salvadoran Army and security forces were associated with death-squad activities. American military personnel worked closely with the Salvadoran armed forces, providing training, equipment and advice.
His cable said the Patriotic Ones, armed with American semi-automatic rifles, received American military training under the supervision of Col. Francisco Elena Fuentes of the Salvadoran Army, who was commander of the First Brigade, the unit in charge of the capital region. The Ambassador identified Colonel Elena Fuentes and his brigade as "among the worst in terms of human rights."
Amnesty International noted that: (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1990-10-24/news/9010241106_1_death-squads-killed-by-death-squad-killings)
QuoteIn 1990, there was a significant upsurge in the number of killings by army-supported death squads.
On December 7, 1990, The New York Times reported that: (http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/08/world/us-accelerates-aid-to-el-salvador.html?pagewanted=1)
QuoteThe Bush administration announced that it would rush $48.1 million in military aid to the government of El Salvador .
And according to a 1991 Human Rights Watch report: (http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,HRW,,SLV,4562d94e2,467fca47c,0.html)
Quotethe Altacatl Battalion remains perhaps the most appalling violator of human rights in El Salvador.
Isn't this all from the 70s?
Quote from: Vulhala on Apr 15, 2011, 06:12:45 PM
Quote from: AliceApocalypse on Apr 15, 2011, 04:35:19 PM]
This is true, what Valaquen has stated about testing drugs on unsuspecting people. While I was in school (a long long time ago) radiation was being put in our school food and the results were documented. They used to make announcements over the school PA system that if you had"burning eyes" or "nose bleeds" etc to report to the school nurse. No joke. It was brought out later, because many people in my age group have had multiple bouts of cancer (believe it or not I have had 2 very minor at young ages). From what we have been told later was that it was because of the cold war with Russia and they were dong the same. I don't have all of the facts, only experiences and the explanations given.
That's chilling. Please tell me you sued the ass out of them?
There are some class action suits going around, but the worst seems to be over so I just moved on. I can remember a group of us in the hospital at the same time, it was truly frightening. I have some horror stories from that visit. We used to contact each other throughout the years to try to sort it all out, but over time we just lost touch or put it behind us. As an adult there does not seem to be any lingering consequences, at least for me.
I would still sue out of principle. That's just me though.
This thread is the best ever
Part 4: The United Nations Truth Commission Report on El Salvador
In an article titled "U.S.-TRAINED TROOPS LED MASSACRES", The Associated Press reports: (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-156701240.html)
QuoteA new United Nations report confirms what human rights groups have long suspected: The U.S.- trained Atlacatl Battalion committed two of El Salvador's most notorious atrocities. The report, released Monday in New York, found the battalion responsible for the massacre of hundreds of civilian men, women and children in the eastern jungle town of El Mozote in December 1981. It also blamed Atlacatl soldiers for killing six Jesuit priests, their housekeeper and her teenage daughter in November 1989.
The United Nations Truth Commission Report on El Salvador (http://www.derechos.org/nizkor/salvador/informes/truth.html) noted that:
QuoteThe Atlacatl Battalion was a 'Rapid Deployment Infantry Battalion' or BIRI,' that is, a unit specially trained for 'counter-insurgency' warfare. It was the first unit of its kind in the [El Salvadoran] armed forces and had completed its training under the supervision of United States military advisors, at the beginning of that year, 1981.
The report added that:
Quotethere is [also] sufficient evidence that in the days preceding and following the El Mozote massacre, troops participating in "Operation Rescue" massacred the non-combatant civilian population in La Joya canton, in the villages of La Rancheria, Jocote Amatillo y Los Toriles, and in Cerro Pando canton.
The Truth Commission listed their other crimes including:
Quote.El Mozote Massacre (1981) — more than 900 killed
.Sheraton Hotel Murders of labor leaders (1981)
.Lake Suchitlan Massacre (1983) — 117 killed
.Las Hojas Massacre (1983) — 16 killed
.Los Llanitos Massacre (1984) — 68 killed
.San Sebastian Massacre (198 — 10 killed
.University of Central America Massacre (1989) — 8 killed
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On October 22, 1992, a headline on the front page of the New York Times (http://books.google.com/books?ei=CoVkTNTFOsH-8AbtuOyiDQ&ct=result&id=-9VpAAAAMAAJ&dq=The+New+York+Times%3A+In+a+small+rectangular+plot+among+the+overgrown+ruins+of+a+village+here%2C+a+team+of+forensic+archeologists+has+opened+a+window+on+El+Salvador%27s+nightmarish+past.+Nearly+11+years+after+American-trained+soldiers+were+said+to+have+torn+through+El+Mozote+and+surrounding+hamlets+on+a+rampage+in+which+at+least+794+people+were+killed%2C+the+bones+have+emerged+as+stark+evidence+that+the+claims+of+peasant+survivors+and+the+reports+of+a+couple+of+American+journalists+were+true.+Government+officials+denied+that+such+a+massacre+had+taken+place+or+blamed+the+rebels+for+the+killings%2C+and+United+States+officials+hotly+disputed+reports+from+the+scene+by+Raymond+Bonner+of+The+New+York+Times+and+Alma+Guillermoprieto+of+The+Washington+Post.&q=The+New+York+Times%3A+In+a+small+rectangular+plot+among+the+overgrown+ruins+of+a+village+here%2C+a+team+of+forensic+archeologists+has+opened+a+window+on+El+Salvador%27s+nightmarish+past.+Nearly+11+years+after+American-trained+soldiers+were+said+to+have+torn+through+El+Mozote+and+surrounding+hamlets+on+a+rampage+in+which+at+least+794+people+were+killed%2C+the+bones+have+emerged+as+stark+evidence+that+the+claims+of+peasant+survivors+and+the+reports+of+a+couple+of+American+journalists+were+true.+Government+officials+denied+that+such+a+massacre+had+taken+place+or+blamed+the+rebels+for+the+killings%2C+and+United+States+officials+hotly+disputed+reports+from+the+scene+by+Raymond+Bonner+of+The+New+York+Times+and+Alma+Guillermoprieto+of+The+Washington+Post.) announced "Salvador Skeletons Confirm Reports of Massacre in 1981". Reporter Tim Golden began:
QuoteIn a small rectangular plot among the overgrown ruins of a village here, a team of forensic archeologists has opened a window on El Salvador's nightmarish past. Nearly 11 years after American-trained soldiers were said to have torn through El Mozote and surrounding hamlets on a rampage in which at least 794 people were killed, the bones have emerged as stark evidence that the claims of peasant survivors and the reports of a couple of American journalists were true.
Government officials denied that such a massacre had taken place or blamed the rebels for the killings, and United States officials hotly disputed reports from the scene by Raymond Bonner of The New York Times and Alma Guillermoprieto of The Washington Post.
Out of 143 bodies identified in the laboratory:
Quote131 were of children under the age of 12
including three infants under the age of three months.
In his study of the media and the Reagan administration, On Bended Knee, US author Mark Hertsgaard (http://books.google.com/books?id=B_ctv8826LYC&q=What+made+the+Morazan+massacre+stories+so+threatening+was+that+they+repudiated+the+fundamental+moral+claim+that+under-+girded+US+policy.+They+suggested+that+what+the+United+States+was+supporting+in+Central+America+was+not+democracy+but+repression.+They+therefore+threatened+to+shift+the+political+debate+from+means+to+ends,+from+how+best+to+combat+the+supposed+Communist+threat+%E2%80%94+send+US+troops+or+merely+US+aid%3F+%E2%80%94+to+why+the+United+States+was+backing+state+terrorism+in+the+first+place.&dq=What+made+the+Morazan+massacre+stories+so+threatening+was+that+they+repudiated+the+fundamental+moral+claim+that+under-+girded+US+policy.+They+suggested+that+what+the+United+States+was+supporting+in+Central+America+was+not+democracy+but+repression.+They+therefore+threatened+to+shift+the+political+debate+from+means+to+ends,+from+how+best+to+combat+the+supposed+Communist+threat+%E2%80%94+send+US+troops+or+merely+US+aid%3F+%E2%80%94+to+why+the+United+States+was+backing+state+terrorism+in+the+first+place.&hl=en&ei=eYRkTLjpCMGB8gb0vZWJCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA) wrote of the significance of the first reports of the massacre:
QuoteWhat made the Morazan massacre stories so threatening was that they repudiated the fundamental moral claim that under-girded US policy. They suggested that what the United States was supporting in Central America was not democracy but repression.
They therefore threatened to shift the political debate from means to ends, from how best to combat the supposed Communist threat — send US troops or merely US aid? — to why the United States was backing state terrorism in the first place.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 16, 2011, 03:39:49 AM
The case of El Salvador is perhaps the worst of them and it has a lot of competition. There's no shortage of information and hideous imagery on this history but it's one of the least known US interventions, probobly because it was mostly covert operations which lead to the mass slaughter of over 145,000 people - organizing peasents, trade unionists, Priests, Nuns, journalists, teachers, students, health care workers, human rights advocates, pro democracy movements etc. - just in the 70's, 80's, and early 90's by US-organized, trained, controlled, armed, and financed Death Squads under the guise of fighting communism and then the "war on drugs" immediatly after the Soviet economy collapsed.
The Mafia-Don and Master of the Hemisphere was determined to sustain/maintain the Neo-Nazi military junta and the exploitative economic and social order to prevent the "rot" - social and economic development - from spreading "infection" to countries of real concern to the rulers of much of the world. This will be the longest review of them all.
US Death Squad War in El Salvador 1962-1992
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PBS Frontline: US Death Squad Operations
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdCCUc6LdqY# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdCCUc6LdqY#)
WARNING: HIDEOUS AFTER 4:41
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0yL42r4aAE# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0yL42r4aAE#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja9nXs1tQ7Q# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja9nXs1tQ7Q#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf3jAVzdT3w# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf3jAVzdT3w#)
US War on Labor in El Salvador
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYvgWYLlSGA# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYvgWYLlSGA#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfF9zD1OhAo# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfF9zD1OhAo#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypnZ-q4vEuc# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypnZ-q4vEuc#)
TO BE CONTINUED..
I don't even know how to reply to this.
Don't worry. You don't have to.
In March 1994, the "democracy enhancement" project reached El Salvador. The elections conducted in the 1980s to legitimize the US-backed terror state were hailed at the time as impressive steps towards democracy ("demonstration elections," as Edward Herman accurately called them). But with the policy imperatives of those days gone, the pretense has been quietly shelved. It is the 1994 elections that are to represent the triumph of Washington's dedication to democracy.
The elections are indeed an innovation in that at least the forms were maintained, pretty much.
The Financial Times reports:
QuoteTens of thousands of voters who had electoral cards were unable to vote because they did not appear on electoral lists, while some 74,000 people, a high number of which were from areas believed to be sympathetic to the FMLN, were excluded because they did not have birth certificates.
FMLN leaders alleged that more than 300,000 voters were excluded in such ways, charging "massive" fraud. The left coalition presidential candidate Rubn Zamora estimated "conservatively" that over 10% of voters were barred.
The UN mission downplayed the problems, but independent observers were not convinced:
QuoteI used to give them the benefit of the doubt but it comes to the point when you have to say it is bad faith.
referring to the "bad administration" of the election by the governing ARENA party, which received almost half the votes cast, and the UN mission reaction.
But the irregularities, whatever they may have been, do not change the fact that the elections broke new ground at a formal level. There was no blatant fraud or massive terror; rather, minor fraud against the background of the successful use of terror and repression, with a narrow aspect that received some attention, and a broader and more significant one that did not.
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In the 1994 elections, the US naturally supported ARENA, the party of the death squads, a fact understood throughout though denied for propaganda reasons. Partial declassification of documents has revealed that much. It also illustrates once again why documents are classified in the first place: not for security reasons, as alleged, but to undermine American democracy by protecting state power from popular scrutiny.
A February 1985 CIA assessment (http://books.google.com/books?id=Zw4VAQAAIAAJ&q=%22behind+ARENA's+le%20gitimate+exterior+lies+a+terrorist+network+led+by+D'Aubuisson+henchmen+and+funded+by+wealthy+Salvadoran+expatriates+residing+in+Guatemala+and+the+United+States.+The+assessment+described+the+Secret+Anti-Communist+Army+(esa)+as+a,+rightwing+terrorist+group+that+indicates+has+been+ARENA's+primary+instrument+for+clandestine+operations+over+the+past+three+years.+The+CIA+reported+that:+rightest+terrorist+cells+also+use+both+active-duty+and+retired+military+personnel+in+their+campains...death+squads+in+the+armed+forces+operate+out+of+both+urban+military+headquarters+and+rural+outposts.+The+same+report+noted+that+a+National+Guard+death+squad+has+operated+since+at+least+1981.+Fragmentary+reporting+indicated+that+a+death+squad+operated+within+the+Treasury+Police+and+others+undeniably+exist+in+the+civilian+sector.&dq=%22behind+ARENA's+legitimate+exterior+lies+a+terrorist+network+led+by+D'Aubuisson+henchmen+and+funded+by+wealthy+Salvadoran+expatriates+residing+%20in+Guatemala+and+the+United+States.+The+assessment+described+the+Secret+Anti-Communist+Army+(esa)+as+a,+rightwing+terrorist+group+that+indicates+has+been+ARENA's+primary+instrument+for+clandestine+operations+over+the+past+three+years.+The+CIA+reported+that:+rightest+terrorist+cells+also+use+both+active-duty+and+retired+military+personnel+in+their+campains...death+squads+in+the+armed+forces+operate+out+of+both+urban+military+headquarters+and+rural+outposts.+The+same+report+noted+that+a+National+Guard+death+squad+has+operated+since+at+least+1981.+Fragmentary+reporting+indicated+that+a+death+squad+operated+within+the+Treasury+Police+and+others+undeniably+exist+in+the+civilian+sector.&hl=en&ei=emBlTJXeH8L7lwfs04WTDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA) revealed that (Human Rights Watch):
Quote"behind ARENA's legitimate exterior lies a terrorist network led by D'Aubuisson and funded by wealthy Salvadoran expatriates residing in Guatemala and the United States."
The assessment described the Secret Anti-Communist Army (esa) as a, "rightwing terrorist group that indicates has been ARENA's primary instrument for clandestine operations over the past three years."
The CIA reported that: "rightest terrorist cells also use both active-duty and retired military personnel in their campains...death squads in the armed forces operate out of both urban military headquarters and rural outposts."
The same report noted that "a National Guard death squad has operated since at least 1981." "Fragmentary" reporting indicated that a death squad operated within the Treasury Police "and others undeniably exist in the civilian sector."
The military and police themselves, of course, were the major terrorist forces, carrying out the great mass of the atrocities against the civilian population, funded directly from Washington, which was also responsible for their training and direction.
As the 1994 elections approached, there was a "resurgence in death squad-style murders and death threats," Human Rights Watch observed (http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/1994/03/01/darkening-horizons), concluding that:
Quoteno issue represents a greater threat to the peace process than the rise in political murders of leaders and grassroots activists of the FMLN, assassinations that became more frequent, brazen, and selective in the fall of 1993. These injected a level of fear, almost impossible to measure, into the campaign, enhanced by government cover-ups and refusal to investigate, part of a pattern of violation of the peace treaty, to which we return.
The government's own human rights office and the UN Observer Mission reported the grave deterioration in citizen security" made worse by organized violence in the political arena. This proceeds against the backdrop of an astronomical rise of crime in post-war El Salvador, and "reliable" evidence that the army and National Police are involved in organized crime.
Coveraction Quarterly (http://books.google.com/books?id=K3khAQAAIAAJ&q=Through+it+all,+the+US+backed+ARENA.+The+Clinton+administration+has+stuck+with+it+after+declassified+US+government+documents+confirmed+the+party's+sponsorship+of+death+squads.+The+trail+went+all+the+way+to+the+top.+Just+as+ARENA+has+switched+to+more+sophisticated+methods+to+keep+its+grip+on+power,+the+Clinton+administration+has+altered+the+style+of+US+policy+in+El+Salvador+without+changing+the+substance.+El+Salvador+is+still+one+of+the+top+ten+recipients+of+US+foreign+aid+in+the+world.+For+all+its+public+promotion+of+a+foreign+policy+based+on+democratic+values+and+human+rights,+the+Clinton+administration+has+shown+no+more+willingness+to+challenge+ARENA+than+it+has+the+generals+in+Haiti.+The+administration's+denial+of+electoral+irregularities+exemplifies+this+approach.&dq=Through+it+all,+the+US+backed+ARENA.+The+Clinton+administration+has+stuck+with+it+after+declassified+US+government+documents+confirmed+the+party's+sponsorship+of+death+squads.+The+trail+went+all+the+way+to+the+top.+Just+as+ARENA+has+switched+to+more+sophisticated+methods+to+keep+its+grip+on+power,+the+Clinton+administration+has+altered+the+style+of+US+policy+in+El+Salvador+without+changing+the+substance.+El+Salvador+is+still+one+of+the+top+ten+recipients+of+US+foreign+aid+in+the+world.+For+all+its+public+promotion+of+a+foreign+policy+based+on+democratic+values+and+human+rights,+the+Clinton+administration+has+shown+no+more+willingness+to+challenge+ARENA+than+it+has+the+generals+in+Haiti.+The+administration's+denial+of+electoral+irregularities+exemplifies+this+approach.&hl=en&ei=BnJlTObsLoT6lwfFieHVDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA) pointed out that:
QuoteU.S. Shields Death Squads
Through it all, the US backed ARENA. The Clinton administration has stuck with it after declassified US government documents confirmed the party's sponsorship of death squads. The trail went all the way to the top.
Just as ARENA has switched to more sophisticated methods to keep its grip on power, the Clinton administration has altered the style of US policy in El Salvador without changing the substance. El Salvador is still one of the top ten recipients of US foreign aid in the world.
For all its public promotion of a foreign policy based on democratic values and human rights, the Clinton administration has shown no more willingness to challenge ARENA than it has the generals in Haiti. The administration's denial of electoral irregularities exemplifies this approach.
The major political opposition, Rubn Zamora's left coalition, not only lacked resources for the campaign that was virtually monopolized by ARENA, but was (The New York Times) (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/03/06/world/salvador-s-ex-rebels-trail-in-polls-but-look-ahead.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all):
Quoteunable to convince supporters or sympathizers to appear in campaign ads because they fear retaliation from the right.
Terror continued at a level sufficient to give substance to such fears. Among those who took the threat seriously was Jos Maria Mendez, named El Salvador's "Lawyer of the Century" by three prestigious legal associations. He fled the country shortly after, threatened with death unless he convinced the vice-presidential candidate of the left coalition to resign.
Foreign observers were struck by the lack of popular interest in the "elections of the century." "Salvadorans Ambivalent Toward Historic Poll," a headline in the Christian Science Monitor read, reporting fear and apathy, and concern that war will return unless ARENA wins. The abstention rate, about 45%, was about the same as 10 years earlier, at the peak of the violence.
A "conservative political analyst" quoted by the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/03/22/world/rightist-party-retains-power-in-salvadoran-election.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2) (Hctor Dada) attributed the low participation:
Quoteto a deliberate disenfranchisment of voters and a sense of apathy among the electorate.
As for those who voted, another analyst, Luis Cardenal, observed that:
Quotethe electorate voted more than anything for tranquillity, for security.
David Clark Scott, reporter for the Christian Science Monitor added:
QuoteThe war-weary populace bought the ruling party's party line, which equated ARENA with security and the left with instability and violence.
That is plausible enough. Any other outcome could be expected to lead to revival of the large-scale terror and atrocities
These assessments bear on the broader aspects of the successful use of violence. Before the election, church and popular sources attributed the "climate of apathy" to the fact that "hunger and poverty reign among a population whose demands have received no attention, which makes the electoral climate difficult" (Notimex, Mexico). In the 1970s, popular organizations were proliferating, in part under church auspices, seeking to articulate these demands in the political arena and to work to overcome hunger, poverty, and harsh oppression.
It was that popular awakening that elicited the response of the state terror apparatus and its superpower sponsor, committed as always to a form of "democracy enhancement" that bars the threat of democracy -- by extreme violence, if necessary, as in this case. Here as elsewhere, the programs of the terrorist superpower were highly successful, leading to the "climate of apathy," the search for security above all else, and the general conditions in which "free elections" become tolerable.
A January 1994 conference of Jesuits and lay associates in San Salvador (http://www.envio.org.ni/articulo/1746) considered both the narrow and broad aspects of the state terrorist project. Its summary report concludes that:
QuoteIt is important to explore to what degree terror continues to act, cloaked by the mask of common crime. Also to be explored is what weight the culture of terror has had in domesticating the expectations of the majority vis-a-vis alternatives different to those of the powerful, in a context in which many of the revolutionaries of yesterday act today with values similar to the long powerful.
All I can say about this is:
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Part 5: The United Nations Truth Commission on El Salvador: Conclusions
The 1993 United Nations Truth Commission Report on El Salvador (http://www.derechos.org/nizkor/salvador/informes/truth.html) concluded that:
QuoteBetween 1980 and July 1991 more than 75,000 Salvadorans were killed.
This violence originated in a political mind-set that viewed political opponents as subversives and enemies. Anyone who expressed views that differed from the Government line ran the risk of being eliminated as if they were armed enemies on the field of battle. This situation is epitomized by the extrajudicial executions, enforced disappearances and murders of political opponents described in this chapter.
Any organization in a position to promote opposing ideas that questioned official policy was automatically labelled as working for the guerrillas. To belong to such an organization meant being branded a subversive.
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Despite mostly killing peasants, the death squads readily killed any opponent they suspected of sympathy with the guerrillas — clergy (men and women), church lay workers, political activists, journalists, labour unionists (leaders, rank-and-file), medical workers, liberal students and teachers, and human-rights monitors.
More from the UN Truth Commission report: (http://www.derechos.org/nizkor/salvador/informes/truth.html)
QuoteThe main characteristics of this period were that violence became systematic and terror and distrust reigned among the civilian population. The fragmentation of any opposition or dissident movement by means of arbitrary arrests, murders and selective and indiscriminate disappearances of leaders became common practice.
Repression in the cities targeted political organizations, trade unions and organized sectors of Salvadorian society, as exemplified by the persecution of organizations such as the Asociación Nacional de Educadores Salvadoreños (ANDES), murders of political leaders and attacks on human rights bodies.
Cynthia Arnson, a Latin American-affairs writer for Human Rights Watch (http://books.google.com/books?id=BlXPSphM840C&pg=PA86&dq=The+objective+of+death+squad+terror+seemed+not+only+the+elimination+of+opponents+or+suspected+opponents+but+also,+through+torture+and+the+gruesome+disfiguration+of+bodies,+the+terrorization+of+the+population.&hl=en&ei=kappTNCeJYa0lQeUmLShBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20objective%20of%20death%20squad%20terror%20seemed%20not%20only%20the%20elimination%20of%20opponents%20or%20suspected%20opponents%20but%20also%2C%20through%20torture%20and%20the%20gruesome%20disfiguration%20of%20bodies%2C%20the%20terrorization%20of%20the%20population.&f=false), noted that:
QuoteThe objective of death-squad-terror seemed not only elimination of opponents, but also, through torture and the gruesome disfiguration of bodies, the terrorization of the population.
In the words of Murat Williams, US ambassedor to El Salvador (http://books.google.com/books?ei=01ltTP6MJYOglAeYzsjNDw&ct=result&id=9xwBnUwd2fwC&dq=Many+of+them+have+been+tortured+and+mutilated+by+tormentors+who+have+been+trained+in+the+sophisticated+tactics+of+violence+%E2%80%94+often+by+our+own+military+advisors.+I+believe+no+thoughtful+US+citizen+can+come+away+from+this+powerful+document+without+grave+misgivings+as+to+our+course+in+Central+America.&q=Murat+Williams%3A+Many+of+them+have+been+tortured+and+mutilated+by+tormentors+who+have+been+trained+in+the+sophisticated+tactics+of+violence+%E2%80%94+often+by+our+own+military+advisors.+I+believe+no+thoughtful+US+citizen+can+come+away+from+this+powerful+document+without+grave+misgivings+as+to+our+course+in+Central+America.), from 1961-1964 when the system of efficient state terror was established by Kennedy Liberals:
QuoteMany of them have been tortured and mutilated by tormentors who have been trained in the sophisticated tactics of violence — often by our own military advisors. I believe no thoughtful US citizen can come away from this powerful document without grave misgivings as to our course in Central America.
More from the Commission report:
QuoteThe United States Government also significantly increased its military and economic assistance. The increasing flow of resources was intended to train, modernize and expand the structure of a number of elements of the armed forces. The Rapid Deployment Infantry Battalions (BIRI), specialized in anti-guerrilla warfare, also began to be created (Atlacatl: March 1981, Atonal: January 1982, Belloso: May 1982, etc.).
Counter-insurgency military operations affected the non-combatant civilian population, causing a high death toll and the emergence of a new phenomenon -displaced persons.
The International Commission of Jurists (http://books.google.com/books?id=hZNqAAAAMAAJ&q=the+International+Commission+of+Jurists+:+These+Violations+of+rights+of+opponents+of+the+government+form+part+of+a+deliberate+campaign+to+preserve+the+privileged+position+of+the+ruling+minority&dq=the+International+Commission+of+Jurists+:+These+Violations+of+rights+of+opponents+of+the+government+form+part+of+a+deliberate+campaign+to+preserve+the+privileged+position+of+the+ruling+minority&hl=en&ei=cKxpTI3MEYSglAfx6oifBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg) observed that the Death Squad terror was not directed at so called "Communists" as Washington claimed. The Commission concluded that:
QuoteThese violations of rights of oponents of the government form part of a deliberate campaign to preserve the privileged position of the ruling minority.
That is, Washington carried out a vicious war, essentially against the indigenous population to sustain/maintain "the privileged position of the ruling minority."
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Quote from: Horhey on Apr 16, 2011, 03:10:49 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 16, 2011, 03:04:59 PM
All I can say about this is:
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/funny-pictures-speechless-with-flabbergastedness.jpg
I kinda wish I didnt start this. It's too much work. It might be like 5 pages long. Im going in order. Begins with Kennedy and ends with CLINTON. I cant just quit here though.
You actually can.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 16, 2011, 03:20:15 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 16, 2011, 03:12:24 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 16, 2011, 03:10:49 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 16, 2011, 03:04:59 PM
All I can say about this is:
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/funny-pictures-speechless-with-flabbergastedness.jpg
I kinda wish I didnt start this. It's too much work. It might be like 5 pages long. Im going in order. Begins with Kennedy and ends with CLINTON. I cant just quit here though.
You actually can.
Nah, it just gets worse and worse.
More stuff that's not contemporary with today?
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I think I'll leave for a bit.
Horhey's said since the first pages that he's working through the decades. Who cares if it's not contemporary? He's going over the dark side of the CIA's career - which certainly did not start this decade. Are you still assuming that he's attacking Americans as a whole? The thread is interesting, and there is no legitimate argument against. Let it unfold. Otherwise you're uselessly bumping your post count. I wouldn't mind seeing a debate. Heckling is boring.
There's a kid in my school who won't accept that America can do anything wrong. He believes that we were in the right when we slaughtered the Native Americans, thinks America has no propaganda machine, thinks that America never had slaves, thinks less of people from other countries (except England, kind of), and a whole host of other things that I really wish I was kidding about. Unfortunately, I'm not kidding.
This thread shows why people like him are some of the worst people out there. Willing ignorance.
Quote from: Valaquen on Apr 16, 2011, 07:05:21 PM
Horhey's said since the first pages that he's working through the decades. Who cares if it's not contemporary? He's going over the dark side of the CIA's career - which certainly did not start this decade. Are you still assuming that he's attacking Americans as a whole? The thread is interesting, and there is no legitimate argument against. Let it unfold. Otherwise you're uselessly bumping your post count. I wouldn't mind seeing a debate. Heckling is boring.
I'm not heckling. Just never mind.
I was a kid in the '80s (I'm old, I know) and have a little to contribute to the timeline of the "darkside of the CIA." It was reported that the MKULTRA program was supposedly scrapped in the 70's. In the 80's they switched to a more humane way to alter mind control through the Stargate program, i.e. Remote Viewing. Weird.
The media was also reporting during this time, that prisoners were "volunteering" to have their skulls drilled into. Strange. I just can't understand why they experimented on kids with radiation in the 1980's, the cold war was practically over. That wasn't even reported officially, to my knowledge, only explained to those of us who were affected many years later :-\ I even remember us making jokes after the announcements about putting ketchup in our noses to go home early.
Quote from: AliceApocalypse on Apr 18, 2011, 06:29:27 PM
I just can't understand why they experimented on kids with radiation in the 1980's, the cold war was practically over.
Depends on when in the 1980's, in '83 there were two near-nuclear incidents, due to Able Archer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Archer_83 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Archer_83)
It was early :-[
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 16, 2011, 03:24:10 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 16, 2011, 03:21:28 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 16, 2011, 03:20:15 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 16, 2011, 03:12:24 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 16, 2011, 03:10:49 PM
Quote from: Ghost Rider on Apr 16, 2011, 03:04:59 PM
All I can say about this is:
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/funny-pictures-speechless-with-flabbergastedness.jpg
I kinda wish I didnt start this. It's too much work. It might be like 5 pages long. Im going in order. Begins with Kennedy and ends with CLINTON. I cant just quit here though.
You actually can.
Nah, it just gets worse and worse.
More stuff that's not contemporary with today?
It reached it's peak in the 80's and 90's. "Bloody and gory beyond comprehension almost." (John Stockwell)
The Obama team's hands are bloody as well. In Honduras and Ecuador. I havent even gotten beyond the western hemisphere yet. What about the middle east and Asia? We'll see..
If you want to talk about the Mid East (which is a term I don't care for), U.S. influence is easy enough to see. Israel is an extension of the U.S. military, for all intents and purposes.
Quotethe Mid East (which is a term I don't care for)
A term also born out of Imperialism.
Oh? I didn't know that.
More British than Yank I believe. What with them all being East of Britain.
Near East = Mediterranean
Middle East = Arabian peninsula and countries north to Turkey
Far East = China, Japan, Southe East Asia, etc.
Yes, indeed. I don't like the term purely and simply because it's inclusive of Israel. I use the term "Arab World" because it's exclusive.
"Arab World" excludes Iran though.
Iran isn't in the Middle East though. Least, I don't think it's considered part of it. In any case, Iranians aren't Arabs.
I know. Which is why I said
Quote"Arab World" excludes Iran though.
And Iran is traditionally a part of the Middle East.
Hm, never heard it being included. Why would this be the case? It's closer to Asia than any other "Mid East" nation.
All the traditional Middle East countries are in Asia, except for Egypt.
Oh and a teensy bit of Turkey.
Yeah well, Turkey wants to Westernize themselves. Go figure.
It would seem many others do as well - at least in terms of a desire for democratic governments.
A system of Federalism in some of the countries like Iraq, North/South Korea might a good start towards Democracy.
Quote from: AliceApocalypse on Apr 19, 2011, 02:02:10 PM
A system of Federalism in some of the countries like Iraq, North/South Korea might a good start towards Democracy.
S Korea
is a democracy, a member of the UN, as well as a major econony with a high standard of living.
Yes, and North Korea is not. The suggestion refers to the unresolved hostile relationship between the two entities.
You just seemed to suggest that South Korea needed a push in the 'right direction,' is all. N Korea is an aggressor, but that shouldn't paint the South in a bad light.
Actually the line of thought was more toward negotiations. A system of government that allows them to remain independant regions under one governing body. Like the US, we have different rules for each state under the umbrella of one federal government. Just an idea to ease some hostility in certain regions.
Don't see that happening, with a military junta on one end and a democratic, progressive nation on the other. Every negotiation the South signed with the North, the North tore to pieces after time. N Korea needs an overhaul, a revolution, something. The South are dandy without a merger of sorts.
Quote from: SM on Apr 19, 2011, 03:59:50 AM
It would seem many others do as well - at least in terms of a desire for democratic governments.
Democracy isn't exclusively Western.
no! srsly?
Apparently there were early versions of democracy in Mesopotamia, India, and the Iroquis nation.
But modern democracy started with the magna carta and it's is as western as it gets.
Quote from: SM on Apr 19, 2011, 11:16:51 PM
no! srsly?
Well the way you worded it, it sounded as though you implied having a democratic system Westernizes a nation.
I worded it "in terms of a desire for democratic governments".
As opposed to monarchies or/ and dictatatorships.
Note: Add "Best Cospiracy Thread" to AvP Galaxy Award categories.
Quote from: Space Sweeper on Apr 20, 2011, 02:13:38 AM
Note: Add "Best Cospiracy Thread" to AvP Galaxy Award categories.
...and put this one up for "Most Paranoid Notion to Not Be Considered a Conspiracy Because It Doesn't Connect the Dots".
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_Y5bjXBuZZbk%2FTOIkOmLpweI%2FAAAAAAAAAJc%2FC-o4qERrzXU%2FS220%2Fokay-face.jpg&hash=261f9f3f5cdf8abc37219e3abfba4757a2d35b94)
Do not cry, Okayman. There's always the Czech thread!
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 20, 2011, 03:15:31 AM
Quote from: maledoro on Apr 20, 2011, 02:19:24 AM
Quote from: Space Sweeper on Apr 20, 2011, 02:13:38 AM
Note: Add "Best Cospiracy Thread" to AvP Galaxy Award categories.
...and put this one up for "Most Paranoid Notion to Not Be Considered a Conspiracy Because It Doesn't Connect the Dots".
That's it. You're cut off. I no longer care what you have to say.
Quote from: Space Sweeper on Apr 20, 2011, 02:13:38 AM
Note: Add "Best Cospiracy Thread" to AvP Galaxy Award categories.
And you too.
Dude, if you're going to create a thread such as this, be prepared for heavy criticism. Just the way the ball bounces.
^QFT.
Maybe I should run for a political office someday....but only something so unimportant that it stays out of media :laugh:
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 20, 2011, 03:15:31 AMThat's it. You're cut off.
You've been cut off for a very long time...
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 20, 2011, 03:15:31 AMI no longer care what you have to say.
Your reply is evident of that...
;)
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 21, 2011, 03:25:33 AM
The Clinton administration's (http://www.fas.org/man/docs/qdr/sec3.html) National Security Strategy declares:
QuoteThe United States reserves the right to the unilateral use of military power to defend it's vital interests which include:
*Ensuring uninhibited access to key markets, energy supplies and strategic resources.
-Without even the pretexts that Bush and Blair devised.
All lizards.
US-Death Squad War in El Salvador Review Complete: Check pages 7-13.Just in case any one misses this part because you can get lost in the review easily..
"Democracy Promotion"
The motive for Washington's death squad war in El Salvador: "a deliberate campaign to preserve the privileged position of the ruling minority."Reaganite scholar and the Vice President for Studies at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Thomas Carothers (http://www.carnegieendowment.org/experts/index.cfm?fa=expert_view&expert_id=9) wrote the standard scholarly work on U.S. democracy promotion in Latin America in the 1980's.
He writes in part, from an insider's perspective, having served in Reagan's State Department during the 'democracy enhancement' programmes in Central America. He regards these programs as having been a systematic failure:
QuoteThe Reagan administration (http://books.google.com/books?id=ZE5-AAAAMAAJ&q=The+Reagan+administration+was+trying+to+support+the+military+governments+that+were+on+the+way+out+if+anything,+the+U.S.+policy+of+that+period+worked+against+the+democratic+trend.&dq=The+Reagan+administration+was+trying+to+support+the+military+governments+that+were+on+the+way+out+if+anything,+the+U.S.+policy+of+that+period+worked+against+the+democratic+trend.&hl=en&ei=FuJiTL_-PIOBlAfE4cHHCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ) was trying to support the military governments that were on the way out if anything, the U.S. policy in that period worked against the democratic trend.
The underlying U.S. goal (http://books.google.com/books?id=1NDaha23lSAC&pg=PA249&dq=The+underlying+U.S.+goal+is+maintaining+the+basic+societal+orders+of+particular+Latin+American+countries+approximately+as+they+are-ensuring+that+the+economics+are+not+drastically+rearranged+and+that+the+power+relations+of+the+various+social+sectors+are+not+turned+upside+down.+The+impulse+is+to+promote+democratic+change,+but+the+underlying+objective+is+to+maintain+the+basic+order+of+what,+historically+at+least,+are+quite+undemocratic+societies.+The+United+States+mitigates+this+tension+by+promoting+very+limited,+controlled+forms+of+democratic+change.+The+deep+fear+in+the+United+States+government+of+populist-based+change+in+Latin+America-with+all+its+implications+for+upsetting+established+economic+and+political+orders+and+heading+off+in+a+leftist+direction-+leads+to+an+emphasis+on+incremental+change+from+the+top+down.&hl=en&ei=x7ViTOLwM4WBlAfnl_iSCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20underlying%20U.S.%20goal%20is%20maintaining%20the%20basic%20societal%20orders%20of%20particular%20Latin%20American%20countries%20approximately%20as%20they%20are-ensuring%20that%20the%20economics%20are%20not%20drastically%20rearranged%20and%20that%20the%20power%20relations%20of%20the%20various%20social%20sectors%20are%20not%20turned%20upside%20down.%20The%20impulse%20is%20to%20promote%20democratic%20change%2C%20but%20the%20underlying%20objective%20is%20to%20maintain%20the%20basic%20order%20of%20what%2C%20historically%20at%20least%2C%20are%20quite%20undemocratic%20societies.%20The%20United%20States%20mitigates%20this%20tension%20by%20promoting%20very%20limited%2C%20controlled%20forms%20of%20democratic%20change.%20The%20deep%20fear%20in%20the%20United%20States%20government%20of%20populist-based%20change%20in%20Latin%20America-with%20all%20its%20implications%20for%20upsetting%20established%20economic%20and%20political%20orders%20and%20heading%20off%20in%20a%20leftist%20direction-%20leads%20to%20an%20emphasis%20on%20incremental%20change%20from%20the%20top%20down.&f=false) is maintaining the basic societal orders of particular Latin American countries approximately as they are-ensuring that the economics are not drastically rearranged and that the power relations of the various social sectors are not turned upside down. The underlying objective is to maintain the basic order of what, historically at least, are quite undemocratic societies.
The deep fear in the United States government of populist-based change in Latin America-with all its implications for upsetting established economic and political orders and heading off in a leftist direction- leads to an emphasis on incremental change from the top down.
The Reagan administration (http://books.google.com/books?ei=A1BQTPTnOIG0lQfbpeS5CQ&ct=result&id=ZE5-AAAAMAAJ&dq=came+to+adopt+prodemocracy+policies+as+a+means+of+relieving+pressure+for+more+radical+change%2C+but+inevitably+sought+only+limited%2C+top-down+forms+of+democratic+change+that+did+not+risk+upsetting+the+traditional+structures+of+power+with+which+the+United+States+has+long+been+allied&q=The+Reagan+administration+came+to+adopt+prodemocracy+policies+as+a+means+of+relieving+pressure+for+more+radical+change%2C+but+inevitably+sought+only+limited%2C+top-down+forms+of+democratic+change+that+did+not+risk+upsetting+the+traditional+structures+of+power+with+which+the+United+States+has+long+been+allied.) came to adopt prodemocracy policies as a means of relieving pressure for more radical change, but inevitably sought only limited, top-down forms of democratic change that did not risk upsetting the traditional structures of power with which the United States has long been allied.
The proudest achievement was El Salvador. Here, the Reagan administration (http://books.google.com/books?id=1NDaha23lSAC&pg=PA29&dq=ensuring+that+technically+credible+elections+were+held+and+that+the+Christian+democratic+candidate,+Jose+Napoleon+Duarte,+won.&hl=en&ei=SOVhTKvdEsGB8gbYtomJCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ensuring%20that%20technically%20credible%20elections%20were%20held%20and%20that%20the%20Christian%20democratic%20candidate%2C%20Jose%20Napoleon%20Duarte%2C%20won.&f=false) sought two goals:
Quoteensuring that technically credible elections were held and that the Christian democratic candidate, Jose Napoleon Duarte, won.
The administration (http://books.google.com/books?ei=OUAJTInWLIKKONzEpdMP&ct=result&id=ZE5-AAAAMAAJ&dq=The+administration+could+not+conceive+of+an+El+Salvador+in+which+the+military+was+not+the+dominant+actor%2C+the+economic+elite+no+longer+held+the+national+economy+in+its+hands%2C+the+left+was+incorporated+into+the+political+system%2C+and+all+Salvadorans+actually+had+both+the+formal+and+substantial+possibility+of+political+participation.+In+short%2C+the+US+government+had+no+real+conception+of+democracy+in+El+Salvador&q=The+administration+could+not+conceive+of+an+El+Salvador+in+which+the+military+was+not+the+dominant+actor%2C+the+economic+elite+no+longer+held+the+national+economy+in+its+hands%2C+the+left+was+incorporated+into+the+political+system%2C+and+all+Salvadorans+actually+had+both+the+formal+and+substantial+possibility+of+political+participation.+In+short%2C+the+US+government+had+no+real+conception+of+democracy+in+El+Salvador.) could not conceive of an El Salvador in which the military was not the dominant actor, the economic elite no longer held the national economy in its hands, the left was incorporated into the political system, and all Salvadorans actually had both the formal and substantial possibility of political participation. In short, the US government had no real conception of democracy in El Salvador.
While "democracy enhancement" was proceeding in this manner, Washington's death squads were slaughtering the opposition by the tens of thousands, carrying out hideous torture and other atrocities, and destroying the independent press.
A January 1994 conference on state terror organized by Jesuit Priests (http://www.envio.org.ni/articulo/1746) (those who survived that is) in San Salvador observed that:
Quoteit is important to explore . . . what weight the culture of terror has had in domesticating the expectations of the majority vis-a-vis alternatives different to those of the powerful.
That is the crucial point, wherever such methods are used to subdue the "internal enemy."
When is this going to get to the reptilian stuff?
US Death Squad War against Nicaragua 1979-1990
Fomer CIA Station Chief, John Stockwell on the CIA-Contra War Against Nicaragua
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLwhAgsyh1c# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLwhAgsyh1c#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fiy9oDKIGxA# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fiy9oDKIGxA#)
An in depth investigation that exposes US government-media lies about Nicaragua. Features former CIA Analyst David MacMichael and former CIA Station Chief John Stockwell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6ClM0BsYAI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6ClM0BsYAI#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP-FYeNmdGI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP-FYeNmdGI#)
It is instructive to look at another international terrorist campaign to overcome "successful defiance": The US terrorist war against Nicaragua.
For President Jimmy Carter, human rights were "the soul of our foreign policy".
Robert Pastor, President Carter's National Security Advisor for Latin America, explained some important distinctions between human rights and policy: Regretfully, the administration had to support Nicaraguan dictator Anastasio Somoza's regime, and when that proved impossible because the tyrant was being overthrown by the Sandinistas, to maintain the U.S.-trained National Guard even after it had been massacring the population "with a brutality a nation usually reserves for its enemy," killing some 40,000 people.
To Pastor, (http://books.google.com/books?id=5U9E_WQyajcC&pg=PA27&dq=The+United+States+did+not+want+to+control+Nicaragua+or+the+other+nations+of+the+region,+but+it+also+did+not+want+to+allow+developments+to+get+out+of+control.+It+wanted+Nicaraguans+to+act+independently,+except+when+doing+so+would+affect+U.S.+interests+adversely.&cd=2#v=onepage&q=The%20United%20States%20did%20not%20want%20to%20control%20Nicaragua%20or%20the%20other%20nations%20of%20the%20region%2C%20but%20it%20also%20did%20not%20want%20to%20allow%20developments%20to%20get%20out%20of%20control.%20It%20wanted%20Nicaraguans%20to%20act%20independently%2C%20except%20when%20doing%20so%20would%20affect%20U.S.%20interests%20adversely.&f=false) the reason is elementary:
QuoteThe United States did not want to control Nicaragua or the other nations in the region, but it also did not want to allow developments to get out of control. It wanted Nicaraguans to act independently, except when doing so would affect U.S. interests adversely.
^
..You can look at that and come to your own conclusions..
As the US-backed National Guard was carrying out murderous attacks against civilians, leaving tens of thousands killed. On July 6, Carter's Ambassedor Pezzullo (http://books.google.com/books?id=RdRtAAAAMAAJ&q=Lawrence+Pezzullo,+ambassador+to+Nicaragua+In+1979+cabled+Washington+on+7/6/1979+and+said:+%27I+believe+It+ill-advised+to+go+to+Somoza+and+ask+for+a+bombing+halt%27,+at+the+time+the+National+Guard+was+murdering+thousands.&dq=Lawrence+Pezzullo,+ambassador+to+Nicaragua+In+1979+cabled+Washington+on+7/6/1979+and+said:+%27I+believe+It+ill-advised+to+go+to+Somoza+and+ask+for+a+bombing+halt%27,+at+the+time+the+National+Guard+was+murdering+thousands.&hl=en&ei=bUCwTbSbLcWdgQeX-t2HDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA) recommended that the bloodbath be continued:
QuoteI believe it ill-advised to go to Somoza and ask for a bombing halt.
As in U.S. political democracy generally, the Carter Administration had its left-right spectrum. On the right, National Security Adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski (http://books.google.com/books?id=ySH5F_-giJEC&pg=PA162&dq=In+other+words,+we+have+to+demonstrate+that+we+are+still+the+decisive+force+in+determining+the+political+outcomes+in+Central+America+and+that+we+will+not+permit+others+to+intervene.&hl=en&ei=8UGwTaqLDaSU0QGJ9om0CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=In%20other%20words%2C%20we%20have%20to%20demonstrate%20that%20we%20are%20still%20the%20decisive%20force%20in%20determining%20the%20political%20outcomes%20in%20Central%20America%20and%20that%20we%20will%20not%20permit%20others%20to%20intervene.&f=false) proclaimed that:
Quotewe have to demonstrate that we are still the decisive force in determining the political outcomes in Central America .
-Warning of apocalyptic outcomes if the U.S. did not intervene to prevent the Sandinistas from coming to power.
On the left, Secretary of State Cyrus Vance and Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs Viron Vaky pursued a more nuanced approach. Pezzullo's task (http://books.google.com/books?id=gmsMAAAAYAAJ&q=Pezzullo+sought+a+political+solution+involving+the+%22preservation+of+existing+institutions,+especially+the+National+Guard.&dq=Pezzullo+sought+a+political+solution+involving+the+%22preservation+of+existing+institutions,+especially+the+National+Guard.&hl=en&ei=q0KwTfeWNen20gGgs91k&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA) was to implement the policy of the left, that is, to bar the FSLN from power through the:
Quotepreservation of existing instititutions, especially the National Guard.
Robert Pastor explained that:
QuoteCarter had both a different view of the crisis and a different strategy than Brzezinski. He wanted to preserve the National Gaurd.
The National Security Archive's (http://books.google.com/books?id=gmsMAAAAYAAJ&q=But+covertly+the+Carter+administration+took+another+tack.+Even+as+FSLN+fighters+joined+the+spontaneous+celebrations+that+erupted+after+Somoza%27s+departure,+the+United+States+began+setting+the+stage+for+a+counterrevolution.&dq=But+covertly+the+Carter+administration+took+another+tack.+Even+as+FSLN+fighters+joined+the+spontaneous+celebrations+that+erupted+after+Somoza%27s+departure,+the+United+States+began+setting+the+stage+for+a+counterrevolution.&hl=en&ei=XkSwTePEG4LHgAfOsLWDDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA) Peter Kornbluh observes:
Quotethe Carter administration began setting the stage for a counterrevolution.
Applying these principles to Nicaragua, Viron Vaky (http://books.google.com/books?id=axGkXWNxjwoC&pg=PA100&dq=Viron+Vaky:+a+longer+war+of+attrition+will+so+weaken+the+regime,+provoke+such+a+radical+hardening+of+repression,+and+win+sufficient+support+from+Nicaragua%27s+discontented+population+that+sooner+or+later+the+regime+will+be+overthrown+by+popular+revolt,+self+destruct+by+means+of+internal+coups+or+leadership+splits,+or+simply+capitulate+to+salvage+what+it+can.&hl=en&ei=wE2wTd3aMITVgQfG8aCCDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Viron%20Vaky%3A%20a%20longer%20war%20of%20attrition%20will%20so%20weaken%20the%20regime%2C%20provoke%20such%20a%20radical%20hardening%20of%20repression%2C%20and%20win%20sufficient%20support%20from%20Nicaragua%27s%20discontented%20population%20that%20sooner%20or%20later%20the%20regime%20will%20be%20overthrown%20by%20popular%20revolt%2C%20self%20destruct%20by%20means%20of%20internal%20coups%20or%20leadership%20splits%2C%20or%20simply%20capitulate%20to%20salvage%20what%20it%20can.&f=false) outlined "the principal arguments" for supporting the right wing Contras against the newly formed Sandinista government:
Quotea longer war of attrition will so weaken the regime, provoke such a radical hardening of repression, and win sufficient support from Nicaragua's discontented population that sooner or later the regime will be overthrown by popular revolt, self destruct by means of internal coups or leadership splits, or simply capitulate to salvage what it can.
Terrorizing the population into submission became the primary strategy adopted by the incoming Reaganites..
TO BE CONTINUED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d_J-fUG_b0# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d_J-fUG_b0#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQnLfFxnwcg#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQnLfFxnwcg#ws)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MUBDR_j8t0# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MUBDR_j8t0#)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frationalrevolution.net%2Fimages%2Fcontras-2.gif&hash=e32cc99da619b7c1f46e0c9b07da678a2682714d)
The Contra war against Nicaragua was one of the highest priorites of the Reagan administration. Nicaragua was dangerous agent of the plague becouse it was so close to home. Secretary of State George Shultz (http://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/05/world/shultz-denounces-nicaragua-and-says-it-endangers-us.html) warned that it is:
Quotea cancer that the United States must cut out,
And not by legal means: (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/george_schultz.html)
QuoteNegotiations are a euphemism for capitulation if the shadow of power is not cast across the bargaining table,
Shultz (http://books.google.com/books?id=oK-PAAAAMAAJ&q=They+advocate+Utopian,+legalistic+means+like+outside+mediation,+the+United+Nations,+and+the+World+Court,+while+ignoring+the+power+element+of+the+equation&dq=They+advocate+Utopian,+legalistic+means+like+outside+mediation,+the+United+Nations,+and+the+World+Court,+while+ignoring+the+power+element+of+the+equation&hl=en&ei=KfOyTceMN4zrgQee_YnGCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFgQ6AEwCQ) dismissed with contempt those who advocate:
Quoteutopian, legalistic means like outside mediation, the United Nations, and the World Court, while ignoring the power element of the equation.
The US blocked efforts of Central American presidents to bring negotiated peace to the region in the early 1980's. They proceeded to "cut the cancer out" by terror, subversion, and economic strangulation. The CIA attacked Nicaragua with right wing Death Squads known as "the Contras" which were the former US-trained Nicaraguan National Guard.
Destruction of Nicaragua was an important task. The country's progress during the early 80's was praised by the World Bank and other international agencies as "remarkable".
The Inter American Develpment Bank (http://books.google.com/books?id=f6R1AAAAMAAJ&q=A+January+1983+report+of+the+Inter-American+Development+Bank+concluded+that+%22Nicaragua+has+made+noteworthy+progress+in+the+social+sector,+which+is+laying+a+solid+foundation+for+long-term+socio-economic+development.&dq=A+January+1983+report+of+the+Inter-American+Development+Bank+concluded+that+%22Nicaragua+has+made+noteworthy+progress+in+the+social+sector,+which+is+laying+a+solid+foundation+for+long-term+socio-economic+development.&hl=en&ei=XAyxTe-AKsjDgQf5_sn7Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA) stated in 1983 that:
QuoteNicaragua has made noteworthy progress in the social sector, which is laying a solid foundation for long-term socio-economic development.
According to a 1986 report by UNICEF (http://books.google.com/books?id=sJSZAAAAIAAJ&q=121+to+80+per+1+,000+live+births+-+one+of+the+most+dramatic+improvements+in+child+survival+in+the+developing+world.&dq=121+to+80+per+1+,000+live+births+-+one+of+the+most+dramatic+improvements+in+child+survival+in+the+developing+world.&hl=en&ei=KvKyTbHUNMnFgAeSnrDGCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA), in the health sector, the country enjoyed:
Quoteone of the most dramatic improvments in child survival in the developing world.
The real cancer feared by Reaganites was this: Nicaragua's "remarkable" transformation could have become a "revolution without boarders." (http://books.google.com/books?id=ew_K3auTwEgC&pg=PA483&dq=revolution+without+borders+nicaragua&hl=en&ei=kvSwTdDjHc2RgQeP3dz8Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CFEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=revolution%20without%20borders%20nicaragua&f=false) Therefore, It was only logical, from the US point of view, to destroy the "virus."
Against tremendous odds the new government pursued an ambitious program of social and economic development, increasing spending on health and education and carrying out extensive land reform. The following report, based on an interview with Esmilda Flores (http://www.chomsky.info/talks/19850319.htm), a peasant woman living on a cooperative, captures something of the spirit unleashed by the Sandinistas' victory:
QuoteBefore the revolution, we didn't participate in anything. We only learned to make tortillas and cook beans and do what our husbands told us. In only five years we've seen a lot of changes - and we're still working on it!
Esmilda Flores belongs to 'an agricultural cooperative in the mountains north of Esteli, Nicaragua. Together with seven other women and fifteen men, she works land that was formerly a coffee plantation owned by an absentee landlord. After the revolution in 1979, the families who had worked the land became its owners. They have expanded production to include corn, beans, potatoes, cabbages, and dairy cows:
QuoteBefore, we had to rent a small plot to grow any food, and we had to pay one-half of our crop to the landlord! Now we work just as hard as before - both in the fields and at home - but there's a difference, because we're working for ourselves...
The US permits no constructive programs in the third world. They must ensure that they are destroyed to undermine "the threat of a good example." The latter phrase is used in a pamphlet on Nicaragua by a charitable development agency OXFAM, which observed the following: (http://books.google.com/books?id=ZWXFgF3iXXIC&q=From+Oxfam%27s+experience+of+working+in+seventy-six+developing+countries+Nicaragua+was+to+prove+exceptional+in+the+strength+of+that+government%27s+commitment+to+improving+the+condition+of+the+people+and+encouraging+their+active+participation+in+the+development+process.&dq=From+Oxfam%27s+experience+of+working+in+seventy-six+developing+countries+Nicaragua+was+to+prove+exceptional+in+the+strength+of+that+government%27s+commitment+to+improving+the+condition+of+the+people+and+encouraging+their+active+participation+in+the+development+process.&hl=en&ei=z_OwTbbKNcrpgQf-pqjvCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBw)
QuoteFrom Oxfam's experience of working in seventy-six developing countries Nicaragua was to prove exceptional in the strength of that government's commitment to improving the condition of the people and encouraging their active participation in the development process.
The title of the pamphlet is well chosen. It is precisely these features of the Sandinistas revolution that sent chills up the spines of US planners, and privelaged elites elsewhere as well. The threat was Nicaragua's good example which may "infect" the region and even beyond. If a tiny and impoverished country with miniscule resources can begin to do something for it's own population, others may ask: "Why not us"? People who can free themselves against all the odds are sure to inspire others.
A Department of Defense official (http://articles.latimes.com/1988-05-28/news/mn-3387_1_contra-force/3) informed the press that one of the major goals was to destroy and discredit Nicaragua's successful independant development:
QuoteThose 2,000 hard-core guys could keep some pressure on the Nicaraguan government, force them to use their economic resources for the military and prevent them from solving their economic problems--and that's a plus," he said. "Anything that puts pressure on the Sandinista regime, calls attention to the lack of democracy and prevents the Sandinistas from solving their economic problems is a plus.
The Los Angeles Times added that:
QuoteAdministration officials said they are content to see the contras debilitate the Sandinistas by forcing them to divert scarce resources toward the war and away from social programs.
Nicaragua must be reduced to "the Albania of Central America," a State Department insider is reported to have observed in 1981. In a "Latin American Albania...the Sandinista dream of creating a new, more exemplary political model for Latin America would be in ruins," John Carlin comments in the London Independent. There would be no "revolution without borders" of the sort anticipated by Tomas Borge, with Nicaragua serving as a model for its neighbors, the source of a well-known fraud perpetrated by the government, the media, and segments of scholarship.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.11th-hour.info%2Fimages%2Fnegroponte.JPG&hash=e2f6110675026fcf3616efb3a2cabd5aee4b09ca)
TO BE CONTINUED
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 22, 2011, 04:49:41 AM
TO BE CONTINUED
Stop threatening us.
If we were really interested, we could simply go to the other forum (http://www.politicalforum.com/warfare-military/129518-declassified-us-imperialism-nicaragua-1912-2006-a.html) where you posted this tripe last year, or go to the other websites (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=779&bih=371&q=Nicaragua+must+be+reduced+to+%22the+Albania+of+Central+America%2C%22&aq=f&aqi=m1&aql=&oq=) you had ripped these butt nuggets from.
Owned. I have to hand it to you Mal, you're nothing if not thorough.
Quote from: Vulhala on Apr 22, 2011, 12:33:50 PM
Owned. I have to hand it to you Mal, you're nothing if not thorough.
Thank you. The
other guy is heavy handed and I wish he was through.
Horhey, why the heck don't you use the same avatar from that forum, here? It's pretty epic ;D 8)
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 22, 2011, 04:41:47 PM
Quote from: Vulhala on Apr 22, 2011, 12:33:50 PM
Owned. I have to hand it to you Mal, you're nothing if not thorough.
And I will continue to chew him up and spit him all over you. Who's "owned"? You know nothing and I will continue to exploit that with a slapping.
You'll find that difficult. At least for the next 48 hours. For someone seemingly quite intelligent, which I have no doubt you are, that was ill advised. I didn't insult you, and I don't expect it back. Your ability to post will be restored this time on Sunday.
For the record. I was out of line with the above comment. Even if he was one of the hecklers, which he is not.
The World Court finds the United States Guilty of International Terrorism against Nicaraguahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOsDwFo2EhM# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOsDwFo2EhM#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2O0qAtKrYk# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2O0qAtKrYk#)
Nicaragua did not respond to the terrorist attacks with bombings in the US. Rather, it went to the World Court for relief.
In 1986, the court ruled in Nicaragua's favor (http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?sum=367&code=nus&p1=3&p2=3&case=70&k=66&p3=5), dismissing US claims and condemning Washington for "unlawful use of force" - international terrorism, in lay terms. The ICJ also held that the U.S. had violated international law by mining Nicaragua's harbors. The decision had little effect. The World Court was condemned as a "hostile forum" by the editors of the New York Times (http://books.google.com/books?id=LM7cRyru0voC&pg=PA184&lpg=PA184&dq=hostile+forum+NEW+YORK+TIMES+COURT+NICARAGUA+July++1986+hostile+judgments&source=bl&ots=dChbAXWpPs&sig=xEp0pxybzXyPIuOm_TCsPRX8cDw&hl=en&ei=eErYS56pKY7Q8wTu99SJBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=hostile%20forum%20NEW%20YORK%20TIMES%20COURT%20NICARAGUA%20July%20%201986%20hostile%20judgments&f=false), and therefore, irrelevant, like the U.N. US aid to the contras was described as "humanitarian" in violation of the court ruling.
As expected, despite the careful and authoritative reasoning by whitch the Court reached it's decision, the New York Times Editorial page (http://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/01/opinion/america-s-guilt-or-default.html) denounced the ruling and even accused many of the judges of being Communists. It wrote:
QuotePredictably, the World Court has found the United States guilty of violating international law by supporting the ''contra'' war against Nicaragua. Just as predictably, the Reagan Administration feels vindicated for not bothering to defend itself; it scorns this frail institution as irredeemably hostile.
The Court's judgement was deplorably broad, but America's response was damagingly petulant. The "laws" the Court seeks to articulate are more accurately values, rooted in traditions that America should honor even in a hostile forum. As the Nicaragua case shows, the absence of effective rebuttal only aggravates the Court's tendentiousness. Worse, for America not to defend its policy leaves the impression the policy is indefensible.
Despite the presence of Communist judges, and those of other incompatible ideologies, the Court is the only body that even pretends to search for rational guidelines of international conduct. In such a forum, and doubly so when it feels wronged, Americans should never be silent.
The following is the evidence the World Court based it's decision on..
Case concerning military and paramilitary activities in and against Nicaragua (Nicaragua v. United States of America) by The International Court of Justice (http://books.google.com/books?id=MGgWWT9fWYQC&pg=PA32&dq=The+Contras+have+killed,+tortured,+raped,+mutilated+and+abducted+hundreds+of+civillians+they+suspect+of+sympathizing+with+the+Sandinistas.+Victims+have+included+peasants,+teachers,+doctors+and+agricultural+workers&hl=en&ei=hihOTMqkLIHKONCUtKkP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false")
On December 29, 1984, the Council on Hemispheric Affairs issued a report condemning the CIA-Contras:
Quotethe CIA directed forces are among the worst human rights violators in Latin America, responsible for systematic brutality against civillian population. The Contras have killed, tortured, raped, mutilated and abducted hundreds of civillians they suspect of sympathizing with the Sandinistas. Victims have included peasants, teachers, doctors and agricultural workers.
The United States administration, for it's critical role in facilitating the Contra violence must share responsibility as a hemispheric violator of human rights.
Human Rights Watch concurs: (http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/1989/WR89/Nicaragu.htm)
Quotethe Contras were major and systematic violators of the most basic standards of the laws of armed conflict, including by launching indiscriminate attacks on civilians, selectively murdering non-combatants, and mistreating prisoners. The Bush administration is responsible for these abuses because the contras are, for all practical purposes, a U.S. force.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.contactpressimages.com%2Fportfolios%2Frebbot%2Fmain_pix%2Frebbot_port6i.jpg&hash=e789ed3b84ea8993e5c504ce76eef6cb63176b47)
Another report, prepared by Reed Brody, a United States lawyer who spent four months in Nicaragua collecting over 40 sworn affidavits from victims and eyewitnesses, dsiclosed a "distinct pattern" of abuses by the Death Squads, including:
Quoteattacks on purely civilian targets resulting in the killing of unarmed men, woman, children and the elderly; - premeditated acts of brutality including rapes, beatings, mutilations and torture ; - and individual and mass kidnappings of civilians for the purpose of forced recruitment into the Contra forces and the creation of a hostage refugee population in Honduras; -assaults on economic and social targets such as farms, cooperatives and on vehicles carrying volunteer coffee harvesters ; - intimidation of civilians who participate or cooperate in government or community programs such as distribution of subsidized food products, education and local self-defense militias ; - and kidnapping, intimidation, and even murder of religious leaders who support the government, including priests and clergy- trained lay pastors.
A report published jointly by the International Human Rights Law Group and Washington Office in Latin America, two private United States organizations that monitor human rights compliance, made the following statement based on an investigative mission they sent to Nicaragua in February 1985:
QuoteThe Contras do attack economic targets such as lumber yards, coffee processing plants, electrical generating stations and the like.... [They] also attack individuals deemed to be contributors to the country's economy pr its defense, such as telephone workers, coffee pickers, teachers, technicians, and members of the civilian-based militia...
Substantial credible evidence exists that Contra violence is also directed with some frequency at individuals who have no apparent economic, military, or political significance and against persons who are hors de combat.
It is important to emphasize that these are not persons caught in crossfire between Contra and Sandinista military units. These are unarmed civilians who have no connection with hostilities and who have been the targets of deliberate attack by Contra units.
Any provision of aid to the Contras, directly or indirectly, by the government of the United States would render our government indirectly responsible for their acts.
The following is part of former CIA analyst, David MacMichael's testimony at the World Court hearing:
QuoteThe principal actions to be undertaken were paramilitary which hopefully would provoke cross-border attacks by Nicaraguan forces and thus serve to demonstrate Nicaragua's aggressive nature and possibly call into play the Organization of American States' provisions (regarding collective self-defense).
It was hoped that the Nicaraguan Government would clamp down on civil liberties within Nicaragua itself, arresting its opposition, so demonstrating its allegedly inherent totalitarian nature and thus increase domestic dissent within the country, and further that there would be reaction against United States citizens, particularly against United States diplomatic personnel within Nicaragua and thus to demonstrate the hostility of Nicaragua towards the United States.
A Training Manual designed for the CIA-Contra forces (the Guerillas) attacking Nicaragua. The manual advised:
QuoteCIA PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS IN GUERRILLA WARFARE (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Psychological_Operations_in_Guerrilla_Warfare)
Tactical Manual for the Revolutionary
ARMED PROPAGANDA
If a guerrilla fires at an individual, make the town see that he was an enemy of the people and that the weapon fired was one recovered in combat against the Sandinista regime. Make the population see that if the Sandinista regime had ended the repression, the freedom commandos would not have had to brandish arms against brother Nicaraguans.
Implicit and Explicit Terror
If the government police cannot put an end to the guerrilla activities, the population will lose confidence in the government, which has the inherent mission of guaranteeing the safety of citizens.
Selective Use of Violence for Propagandists Effects
It is possible to neutralize carefully selected and planned targets, such as court judges, mesta judges, police and State Security officials, CDS chiefs, etc. [As writer Holly Sklar noted, "a hit list that starts with court judges and ends with etcetra is a mighty broad license for murder."]
Creation of Nuclei
If possible, professional criminals will be hired to carry out specific selected "jobs."
The notification of the police, denouncing a target who does not want to join the guerrillas, can be carried out easily, when it becomes necessary, through a letter with false statements of citizens who are not implicated in the movement.
Ways to Lead an Uprising at Mass Meetings
Specific tasks will be assigned to others, in order to create a "martyr" for the cause, taking the demonstrators to a confrontation with the authorities, in order to bring about uprisings or shootings, which will cause the death of one or more persons, who would become the martyrs, a situation that should be made use of immediately against the regime, in order to create greater conflicts.
Shock Troops. These men should be equipped with weapons (Knives, razors, chains, clubs, bludgeons) and should march slightly behind the innocent and gullible participants. They should carry their weapons hidden. They will enter into action only as "reinforcements" if the guerrilla agitators are attacked by the police. They will enter the scene quickly, violently and by surprise, in order to distract the authorities, in this way making possible the withdrawal or rapid escape of the inside commando.
The International Court of Justice (http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?sum=367&code=nus&p1=3&p2=3&case=70&k=66&p3=5) found that:
Quotethe United States of America, by producing in 1983 a manual entitled 'Operaciones sicológicas en guerra de guerrillas', and disseminating it to contra forces, has encouraged the commission by them of acts contrary to general principles of humanitarian law.
The Court, which is the highest judicial body of the United Nations, ruled that by arming and financing the Contra death squads, attacking Nicaragua, and laying explosive mines in the territorial waters of Nicaragua, in addition to other offenses, the United States had volated international law. The Court also ordered the United States to cease and refrain from such actions and to pay reparations to Nicaragua.
The calls were dismissed as ridiculous by the Reagan administration (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/1986/jun/28/usa.marktran) and their allies in the agenda setting "liberal media". Congress immediatly approved an additional 100 million to escalate what the court had condemned as the "unlawful use of force." The US continued to undermine "utopian, legalistic means" untill it acheived it's goal by terror.
Following the US rejection of World Court orders Nicaragua took its case to the Securirty Council, which endorsed the court's judgement and called on all states to observe international law. The US vetoed the resolution. (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1300&dat=19861030&id=nQYQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_ZIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4936,6597133) Then Nicaragua took it to the general assembly (http://articles.latimes.com/1986-11-03/news/mn-14946_1_general-assembly), which passed a similar resolution with only the US, Israel and El Salvador opposed. None of this was ever reported so it has disapeared from history.
TO BE CONTINUED
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 22, 2011, 04:41:47 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 22, 2011, 04:20:18 PM
Horhey, why the heck don't you use the same avatar from that forum, here? It's pretty epic ;D 8)
I just hope Lesnar doesnt underestimate Dos Santos. Ive seen what he can do on my DVD. If you blink, all you'll see is his oponent drop and you'll be like "what just happenned?" You have to rewind it and then watch in slow motion to see his punches. Kinda like Bruce Lee.
Come over to this thread: http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=5869.msg100162#msg100162 (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=5869.msg100162#msg100162)
President Reagan: "I am a Contra"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvTyi58KMq0# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvTyi58KMq0#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D436_CO8VI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D436_CO8VI#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQbqOkZbCfw# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQbqOkZbCfw#)
Washington's reaction to the orders of the World Court was to escalate the terrorist war, while also ordering its Death Squads to go "after soft targets" - undefended civilian targets - and to avoid the Nicaraguan army.
The Boston Globe Reports: (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-8011570.html)
QuoteGen. John Galvin, leader of the US southern command, told a House subcommittee yesterday that the contra rebels fighting to overthrow the Nicaraguan government have a better chance of winning than they did just a few months ago and attributed his growing optimism to the contras' new strategy of attacking civilian targets instead of soldiers.
Testifying before the House Foreign Affairs Western Hemisphere subcommittee, Galvin said, "The contras have a fighting chance if we sustain them" with continued military aid. "It's getting better. In the past few months, I'm more hopeful than I was before."
Asked after the hearing what the contras have achieved the past few months, Galvin replied, "Lots of victories. They're going after soft targets. They're not trying to duke it out with the Sandinistas directly."
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F41ryi6tRtNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg&hash=afe5ac8f23d5f0f9eb50d5b354984869c4bd031a)
The Reagan Administration was deliberately attacking the popular and successful institutions developed by the Sandinistas. Horatio Arce (http://books.google.com/books?id=RdRtAAAAMAAJ&q=We+attack+a+lot+of+schools,+health+centers,+and+those+sorts+of+things.++We+have+tried+to+make+it+so+that+the+Nicaraguan+government+cannot+provide+social+services+for+the+peasants,+cannot+develop+its+project+.+.+.+that%E2%80%99s+the+idea.&dq=We+attack+a+lot+of+schools,+health+centers,+and+those+sorts+of+things.++We+have+tried+to+make+it+so+that+the+Nicaraguan+government+cannot+provide+social+services+for+the+peasants,+cannot+develop+its+project+.+.+.+that%E2%80%99s+the+idea.&hl=en&ei=BQ2yTd2SEofe0QHGzrGFCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBA), one of the Contra rebels destabilising Nicaragua, admitted in 1988 that:
QuoteWe attack a lot of schools, health centers, and those sorts of things. We have tried to make it so that the Nicaraguan government cannot provide social services for the peasants, cannot develop its project . . . that's the idea.
Washington ordered its Death Squads to attack "soft targets," with horrific results. An eyewitness (http://books.google.com/books?id=g6kwAQAAIAAJ&q=Rosa+had+her+breasts+cut+off.+Then+they+cut+into+her+chest+and+took+out+her+heart.+The+men+had+their+arms+broken,+their+testicles+cut+off+and+their+eyes+poked+out.+They+were+killed+by+slitting+their+throats+and+pulling+the+tongue+out+through+the+slit.&dq=Rosa+had+her+breasts+cut+off.+Then+they+cut+into+her+chest+and+took+out+her+heart.+The+men+had+their+arms+broken,+their+testicles+cut+off+and+their+eyes+poked+out.+They+were+killed+by+slitting+their+throats+and+pulling+the+tongue+out+through+the+slit.&hl=en&ei=ihKyTbnKHYOM0QGCqciLCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg) to a Contra raid in Jinotega province said:
QuoteRosa had her breasts cut off. Then they cut into her chest and took out her heart. The men had their arms broken, their testicles cut off and their eyes poked out. They were killed by slitting their throats and pulling the tongue out through the slit.
When asked by the House Subcommittee on Western Hemisphere Affairs to define US policy in Nicaragua, former CIA Director Stansfield Turner (http://books.google.com/books?id=mTw1AAAAIAAJ&q=And+specifically,+I+believe+it+is+irrefutable+that+a+number+of+the+Contras%27+actions+have+to+be+characterized+as+terrorism,+as+State-supported+terrorism.&dq=And+specifically,+I+believe+it+is+irrefutable+that+a+number+of+the+Contras%27+actions+have+to+be+characterized+as+terrorism,+as+State-supported+terrorism.&hl=en&ei=3wqyTfqFJoX20gH9nv20CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ) responded with with following statement:
QuoteI believe it is irrefutable that a number of the Contras' actions have to be characterized as terrorism, as State-supported terrorism.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.contactpressimages.com%2Fportfolios%2Frebbot%2Fmain_pix%2Frebbot_port6d.jpg&hash=b7696e72525701e146fa513f4fd85b7876bd4306)
Human Rights Watch (formerly Americas Watch) issued a report citing systematic murders by the Death Squads.
Human Rights Watch reports: (http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/1989/WR89/Nicaragu.htm)
QuoteThe contras were major and systematic violators of the most basic standards of the laws of armed conflict, including by launching indiscriminate attacks on civilians, selectively murdering non-combatants, and mistreating prisoners.
The Bush administration is responsible for these abuses, not only because the contras are, for all practical purposes, a U.S. force, but also because the Bush administration has continued to minimize and deny these violations, and has refused to investigate them seriously.
Human Rights Watch reports: (http://books.google.com/books?id=YNX3GBda5cMC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=Human+Rights+in+Nicaragua+1986+americas+watch++health+care+clinics+health+care+workers&source=bl&ots=XXaEvU0Yz3&sig=BL1IAbgTStGlkWuI9YK8Y_T2URs&hl=en&ei=-uzpS8uSF4XGlQeoktWfCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false)
QuoteThe conduct of the military conflict, particularly by the insurgent forces (commonly known as "contras"), continued to have a severe impact on rural civilians. Violations of the laws of armed conflict by the contras cause great suffering to the Nicaraguan people.
The Contras have been:
*targeting health care clinics and health care workers for assassination.
*kidnapping civilians.
*torturing civilians.
*executing civilians, including children, who were captured in combat.
*raping women.
*indiscriminately attacking civilians and civilian houses.
*seizing civilian property.
*burning civilian houses in captured towns.
In contrast, Human Rights Watch's (http://books.google.com/books?id=YNX3GBda5cMC&pg=PA5&dq=Although+the+government+of+Nicaragua+does+not+engage+in+systematic+violations+of+laws+of+war+in+the+course+of+military+operations,+we+believe+it+needs+to+make+greater+efforts+to+investigate+alleged+violations+by+members+of+the+military,+to+try+those+responsible+for+abuses+that+have+undoubtedly+occurred+and+to+punish+those+persons+convicted+with+all+the+vigor+of+the+law.&hl=en&ei=KBeyTefZKOHz0gG9wsXFBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Although%20the%20government%20of%20Nicaragua%20does%20not%20engage%20in%20systematic%20violations%20of%20laws%20of%20war%20in%20the%20course%20of%20military%20operations%2C%20we%20believe%20it%20needs%20to%20make%20greater%20efforts%20to%20investigate%20alleged%20violations%20by%20members%20of%20the%20military%2C%20to%20try%20those%20responsible%20for%20abuses%20that%20have%20undoubtedly%20occurred%20and%20to%20punish%20those%20persons%20convicted%20with%20all%20the%20vigor%20of%20the%20law.&f=false) harshest critisism of the Sandinista government was the following:
QuoteAlthough the government of Nicaragua does not engage in systematic violations of laws of war in the course of military operations, we believe it needs to make greater efforts to investigate alleged violations by members of the military, to try those responsible for abuses that have undoubtedly occurred and to punish those persons convicted with all the vigor of the law.
TO BE CONTINUED
Just skimmed the thread a bit.. I'm sure I've read about all of this stuff already, but kudos for putting it all together into one behemoth.
My only question is; wouldn't these posts be better suited to a forum that more actively analyzes these kinds of topics? It also usually helps when you narrow the focus on one thing at a time too. Just my two cents.
Quote from: PLEXI on Apr 23, 2011, 12:22:40 AM
Just skimmed the thread a bit.. I'm sure I've read about all of this stuff already, but kudos for putting it all together into one behemoth.
My only question is; wouldn't these posts be better suited to a forum that more actively analyzes these kinds of topics? It also usually helps when you narrow the focus on one thing at a time too. Just my two cents.
Yea well I made the mistake of starting this thread so I guess I have to finish it. Still though, it's turning into a far more improved compolation of information that I can use at another time. It does go in order though. You just have to skip the comments and find my next post.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 22, 2011, 04:41:47 PMI already said I posted this stuff at another forum.
That's not the issue; it's that you're just randomly cutting and pasting shit from fringe websites.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 22, 2011, 04:41:47 PMAfter it was requested and apolagists like yourself challanging me with nonsense of course.
I haven't defending anyone or anything, so how am I an apologist?
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 22, 2011, 04:41:47 PMIm a hero at that forum ;D
You may be a social lion there, but you're an animal cracker here.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 22, 2011, 04:41:47 PMHavent been active there in a long time though. I kinda wanted to stop paying attention to this stuff.
And what better way to do that than to post it on another forum?
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 23, 2011, 02:29:03 AMYou're defending the empire by f**king with me.
Wooh!
:o ;D
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 23, 2011, 02:29:03 AMYou're acting like you feal threatened by this stuff.
Not really. ♠ = ♠.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 23, 2011, 02:29:03 AMYou asked for it when you called me a nutjob when I said it doesnt matter who the President is.
So, you're only posting this crap as an act of revenge toward me. That makes it even funnier!
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 23, 2011, 02:29:03 AMI already told you how you can make it stop but you havent done it yet, because you cant. Period.
Reread that outloud; it contradicts itself.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 23, 2011, 02:29:03 AMYou've already tried by doing searches with my info here and you failed.
No, I found pages where you cribbed "your" ideas from.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 23, 2011, 03:00:40 AMWell yea, some of the narraration comes from other places. Im not gonna sit here and type the whole thing out. Check page 1 for the credit. That's right. It's been credited. Nice try. Clearly, that's the best you can do.
I guess I did better than you credited me for. You cited Stockwell's book, but ever since you've been copying and pasting the tripe from other websites. Geez, you can't even rant in your own words?
In Nicaragua 1990, "the voters chose a candidate of Washington's choice with a "gun held to their heads"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVn9soMbe8Q#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVn9soMbe8Q#ws)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBc4k-MTKCY# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBc4k-MTKCY#)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gwu.edu%2F%7Ensarchiv%2FNSAEBB%2FNSAEBB210%2Fcontra_mtg.jpg&hash=a98418ec0cd034cdaf289af619b4bb07f598ca37)
During the run up to Nicaragua's elections in 1990, the Bush administration continued the strategy of trying to terrorize the population into "throwing the (popular) government out themselves" so the terror would stop.
Human Rights Watch reports: (http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/1989/WR89/Nicaragu.htm)
QuoteThe policy of keeping the contras alive, through so-called "humanitarian" or non-lethal aid, sustains a force that has shown itself incapable of operating without consistently committing gross abuses in violation of the laws of war.
The policy also has placed in jeopardy the holding of elections by encouraging contra attacks on the electoral process. Thus, while the Bush administration proclaims its support for human rights and free and fair elections in Nicaragua, it persists in sabotaging both.
State Department spokesman Charles Redman (http://books.google.com/books?id=sYA4zY1ke6UC&pg=PA41&dq=It+is+not+the+policy+of+the+resistance+to+attack+non-military+targets.+These+cooperatives,+this+was+what+was+attacked+in+Nicaragua,+often+have+a+dual+military-economic+purpose.&hl=en&ei=R06yTYv8JOTY0QHLjeneBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=It%20is%20not%20the%20policy%20of%20the%20resistance%20to%20attack%20non-military%20targets.%20These%20cooperatives%2C%20this%20was%20what%20was%20attacked%20in%20Nicaragua%2C%20often%20have%20a%20dual%20military-economic%20purpose.&f=false) justified the more extreme terrorist programs stating that:
QuoteIt is not the policy of the [Contra] resistance to attack non-military targets. These cooperatives, this was what was attacked in Nicaragua, often have a dual military-economic purpose.
Human Rights Watch responded: (http://books.google.com/books?id=skYbAAAAMAAJ&q=The+State+Department+statement+would+do+credit+to+George+Orwell%27s+Ministry+of+Truth.+It+would+be+interesting+to+know,+however,+whether+it+considers+how+its+theory+that+a+cooperative+has+a+%22dual+military-economic+purpose%22+and,+therefore,+is+a+legitimate+target+for+attack,+might+be+applied,+for+example,+to+an+unfortified+Israeli+kibbutz+where+attackers+kill+and+injure+children,+burn+houses+and+kidnap+civilians.+Is+it+now+U.S.+policy+that+such+an+attack+would+be+legitimate?&dq=The+State+Department+statement+would+do+credit+to+George+Orwell%27s+Ministry+of+Truth.+It+would+be+interesting+to+know,+however,+whether+it+considers+how+its+theory+that+a+cooperative+has+a+%22dual+military-economic+purpose%22+and,+therefore,+is+a+legitimate+target+for+attack,+might+be+applied,+for+example,+to+an+unfortified+Israeli+kibbutz+where+attackers+kill+and+injure+children,+burn+houses+and+kidnap+civilians.+Is+it+now+U.S.+policy+that+such+an+attack+would+be+legitimate?&hl=en&ei=9kyyTYTzOYPe0QGpiICBCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg)
QuoteThe State Department statement would do credit to George Orwell's Ministry of Truth. It would be interesting to know, however, whether it considers how its theory that a cooperative has a "dual military-economic purpose" and, therefore, is a legitimate target for attack, might be applied, for example, to an unfortified Israeli kibbutz where attackers kill and injure children, burn houses and kidnap civilians. Is it now U.S. policy that such an attack would be legitimate?
New Republic editor Micahael Kinsley (http://books.google.com/books?id=j5cwAQAAIAAJ&q=Kinsley:+Any+sensible+policy+must+meet+the+test+of+cost-benefit+analysis:+the+amount+of+blood+and+misery+that+will+be+poured+in,+and+the+likelihood+that+democracy+will+emerge+at+the+other+end.&dq=Kinsley:+Any+sensible+policy+must+meet+the+test+of+cost-benefit+analysis:+the+amount+of+blood+and+misery+that+will+be+poured+in,+and+the+likelihood+that+democracy+will+emerge+at+the+other+end.&hl=en&ei=J0-yTb2TCern0QGDtPGVBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBw) critisized human rights organizations for becoming too emotional about State Department justifications for terrorist attacks on "soft targets":
QuoteAny sensible policy must meet the test of cost-benefit analysis: the amount of blood and misery that will be poured in, and the likelihood that democracy will emerge at the other end.
- "Democracy" as US elites understand the term, an interpretation demonstrated clearly in the region. Its taken for granted that they have the right to conduct the analysis and pursue the project if it passes their tests. And it did pass their tests. In 1990.
Thomas Walker (http://books.google.com/books?id=_sgWAAAAYAAJ&q=Though+it+was+clear+to+many+impartial+observers+that+the+Nicara-+guan+people+had+voted,+as+the+Sandinistas+would+repeatedly+argue,+with+a+%22gun+held+to+their+heads,%22&dq=Though+it+was+clear+to+many+impartial+observers+that+the+Nicara-+guan+people+had+voted,+as+the+Sandinistas+would+repeatedly+argue,+with+a+%22gun+held+to+their+heads,%22&hl=en&ei=70-yTfT1CeLq0gGh6LxJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA), one of the leading specialists on Central America observes:
QuoteThe voters chose a candidate of Washington's choice with a "gun held to their heads", as was clear to many impartial observers.
The major media celebrated the victory, entranced by the new "romantic age." Commentators accross the spectrum praised the success of the methods adopted to terrorize the popuation into submission.
TIME Magazine reports: (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,969576-1,00.html)
QuoteIf the election of Violeta Barrios de Chamorro as President last week reflected anything, it was the people's rejection of the pain they have endured for a decade. Give us a chance, they said. End the war. Save the economy.
Latin America's history is filled with government reversals, but rarely at the ballot box. Coups, revolutions and invasions -- often organized by Washington -- are more common means. Ever since the trauma of Viet Nam, the U.S. has sought a less direct and costly method to have its way. Where military force could still do the trick cost effectively, the U.S. was willing to use it, as in Grenada and Panama. But in Nicaragua, wittingly or not, Washington stumbled on an arm's-length policy: wreck the economy and prosecute a long and deadly proxy war until the exhausted natives overthrow the unwanted government themselves. For Americans, the cost was minimal. True, bruising annual battles over Central America splintered Congress, and the Iran-contra scandal hobbled Ronald Reagan's second term, but hardly any U.S. soldiers were dying.
The real burden fell on Nicaragua. The U.S. strategy proved excruciatingly slow and extremely expensive, and it inflicted the most pain on the wrong people. The past ten years have savaged the country's civilians, not its comandantes. Since 1985 Washington has strangled Nicaraguan trade with an embargo. It has cut off Nicaragua's credit at the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. The contra war cost Managua tens of millions and left the country with wrecked bridges, sabotaged power stations and ruined farms. The impoverishment of the people of Nicaragua was a harrowing way to give the National Opposition Union (U.N.O.) a winning issue.
The New York Times, where Elaine Sciolino reviewed the U.S. reaction to the elections. The headline reads: "Americans United in Joy" at this outcome, "proud of this victory for US fair play". Such phrases as "United in Joy" are not entirely unknown. One might find them, perhaps, in the North Korean press.
Thomas Walker (http://books.google.com/books?id=_sgWAAAAYAAJ&q=Five+years+later,+however,+after+Nicaragua+had+dropped+to+the+unenviable+status+of+being+the+poorest+country+in+the+Western+Hemisphere,+and+with+the+Nicaraguan+people+now+desperately+tired+of+war+and+deprivation,+a+US+strategy+of&dq=Five+years+later,+however,+after+Nicaragua+had+dropped+to+the+unenviable+status+of+being+the+poorest+country+in+the+Western+Hemisphere,+and+with+the+Nicaraguan+people+now+desperately+tired+of+war+and+deprivation,+a+US+strategy+of&hl=en&ei=mFOyTaOvGaHn0QHI0_XyBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA), points out that after a few years, the US terrorist war had reversed significant economic growth and social progress that followed the overthrow of the US backed Somoza dictatorship, driving the vulnerable economy to disaster and that:
QuoteNicaragua had dropped to the unenviable status of being the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere.
Reaganite scholar and the Vice President for Studies at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Thomas Carothers (http://www.carnegieendowment.org/experts/index.cfm?fa=expert_view&expert_id=9) wrote the standard scholarly work on U.S. democracy promotion in Latin America in the 1980's.
He writes in part, from an insider's perspective, having served in Reagan's State Department during the 'democracy enhancement' programmes in Central America. He regards these programs as having been a systematic failure:
QuoteThe Reagan administration (http://books.google.com/books?id=ZE5-AAAAMAAJ&q=The+Reagan+administration+was+trying+to+support+the+military+governments+that+were+on+the+way+out+if+anything,+the+U.S.+policy+of+that+period+worked+against+the+democratic+trend.&dq=The+Reagan+administration+was+trying+to+support+the+military+governments+that+were+on+the+way+out+if+anything,+the+U.S.+policy+of+that+period+worked+against+the+democratic+trend.&hl=en&ei=FuJiTL_-PIOBlAfE4cHHCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ) was trying to support the military governments that were on the way out if anything, the U.S. policy in that period worked against the democratic trend.
The underlying U.S. goal (http://books.google.com/books?id=1NDaha23lSAC&pg=PA249&dq=The+underlying+U.S.+goal+is+maintaining+the+basic+societal+orders+of+particular+Latin+American+countries+approximately+as+they+are-ensuring+that+the+economics+are+not+drastically+rearranged+and+that+the+power+relations+of+the+various+social+sectors+are+not+turned+upside+down.+The+impulse+is+to+promote+democratic+change,+but+the+underlying+objective+is+to+maintain+the+basic+order+of+what,+historically+at+least,+are+quite+undemocratic+societies.+The+United+States+mitigates+this+tension+by+promoting+very+limited,+controlled+forms+of+democratic+change.+The+deep+fear+in+the+United+States+government+of+populist-based+change+in+Latin+America-with+all+its+implications+for+upsetting+established+economic+and+political+orders+and+heading+off+in+a+leftist+direction-+leads+to+an+emphasis+on+incremental+change+from+the+top+down.&hl=en&ei=x7ViTOLwM4WBlAfnl_iSCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20underlying%20U.S.%20goal%20is%20maintaining%20the%20basic%20societal%20orders%20of%20particular%20Latin%20American%20countries%20approximately%20as%20they%20are-ensuring%20that%20the%20economics%20are%20not%20drastically%20rearranged%20and%20that%20the%20power%20relations%20of%20the%20various%20social%20sectors%20are%20not%20turned%20upside%20down.%20The%20impulse%20is%20to%20promote%20democratic%20change%2C%20but%20the%20underlying%20objective%20is%20to%20maintain%20the%20basic%20order%20of%20what%2C%20historically%20at%20least%2C%20are%20quite%20undemocratic%20societies.%20The%20United%20States%20mitigates%20this%20tension%20by%20promoting%20very%20limited%2C%20controlled%20forms%20of%20democratic%20change.%20The%20deep%20fear%20in%20the%20United%20States%20government%20of%20populist-based%20change%20in%20Latin%20America-with%20all%20its%20implications%20for%20upsetting%20established%20economic%20and%20political%20orders%20and%20heading%20off%20in%20a%20leftist%20direction-%20leads%20to%20an%20emphasis%20on%20incremental%20change%20from%20the%20top%20down.&f=false) is maintaining the basic societal orders of particular Latin American countries approximately as they are-ensuring that the economics are not drastically rearranged and that the power relations of the various social sectors are not turned upside down. The underlying objective is to maintain the basic order of what, historically at least, are quite undemocratic societies.
The deep fear in the United States government of populist-based change in Latin America-with all its implications for upsetting established economic and political orders and heading off in a leftist direction- leads to an emphasis on incremental change from the top down.
The Reagan administration (http://books.google.com/books?ei=A1BQTPTnOIG0lQfbpeS5CQ&ct=result&id=ZE5-AAAAMAAJ&dq=came+to+adopt+prodemocracy+policies+as+a+means+of+relieving+pressure+for+more+radical+change%2C+but+inevitably+sought+only+limited%2C+top-down+forms+of+democratic+change+that+did+not+risk+upsetting+the+traditional+structures+of+power+with+which+the+United+States+has+long+been+allied&q=The+Reagan+administration+came+to+adopt+prodemocracy+policies+as+a+means+of+relieving+pressure+for+more+radical+change%2C+but+inevitably+sought+only+limited%2C+top-down+forms+of+democratic+change+that+did+not+risk+upsetting+the+traditional+structures+of+power+with+which+the+United+States+has+long+been+allied.) came to adopt prodemocracy policies as a means of relieving pressure for more radical change, but inevitably sought only limited, top-down forms of democratic change that did not risk upsetting the traditional structures of power with which the United States has long been allied.
In Nicaragua, Carothers observes: (http://books.google.com/books?id=5yKdothePfwC&pg=PA107&dq=The+most+important+effect+of+the+Reagan+policy+was+the+tremendous+destruction+it+wreaked+on+Nicaragua+...+Approximately+30,000+Nicaraguans+were+killed+and+tens+of+thousands+others+were+wounded,+a+death+total+higher+in+per+capita+terms+than+that+suffered+by+the+United+States+in+the+Civil+War,+World+War+One,+World+War+Two,+the+Korean+War,+and+the+Vietnam+War+combined.+A+generation+of+young+Nicaraguans+was+devastated.++And+just+as+importantly,+diverted+the+energies+of+tens+of+thousands+of+young+Nicaraguans+away+from+productive+economic+activity.+The+war+also+wreaked+havoc+on+the+country%27s+agricultural+system,+disrupting+the+production+and+distribution+of+food+in+many+areas+of+the+country.+By+the+end+of+the+1980s+Nicaragua+was+an+economic+disaster+area+and+had+sunk+to+being+the+poorest+country+in+the+Western+Hemisphere+except+for+Haiti.&hl=en&ei=11yyTf7BDdPegQe0kfzFCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20most%20important%20effect%20of%20the%20Reagan%20policy%20was%20the%20tremendous%20destruction%20it%20wreaked%20on%20Nicaragua%20...%20Approximately%2030%2C000%20Nicaraguans%20were%20killed%20and%20tens%20of%20thousands%20others%20were%20wounded%2C%20a%20death%20total%20higher%20in%20per%20capita%20terms%20than%20that%20suffered%20by%20the%20United%20States%20in%20the%20Civil%20War%2C%20World%20War%20One%2C%20World%20War%20Two%2C%20the%20Korean%20War%2C%20and%20the%20Vietnam%20War%20combined.%20A%20generation%20of%20young%20Nicaraguans%20was%20devastated.%20%20And%20just%20as%20importantly%2C%20diverted%20the%20energies%20of%20tens%20of%20thousands%20of%20young%20Nicaraguans%20away%20from%20productive%20economic%20activity.%20The%20war%20also%20wreaked%20havoc%20on%20the%20country%27s%20agricultural%20system%2C%20disrupting%20the%20production%20and%20distribution%20of%20food%20in%20many%20areas%20of%20the%20country.%20By%20the%20end%20of%20the%201980s%20Nicaragua%20was%20an%20economic%20disaster%20area%20and%20had%20sunk%20to%20being%20the%20poorest%20country%20in%20the%20Western%20Hemisphere%20except%20for%20Haiti.&f=false)
QuoteThe most important effect of the Reagan policy was the tremendous destruction it wreaked on Nicaragua ... Approximately 30,000 Nicaraguans were killed and tens of thousands others were wounded, a death total higher in per capita terms than that suffered by the United States in the Civil War, World War One, World War Two, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War combined. A generation of young Nicaraguans was devastated.
And just as importantly, diverted the energies of tens of thousands of young Nicaraguans away from productive economic activity. The war also wreaked havoc on the country's agricultural system, disrupting the production and distribution of food in many areas of the country. By the end of the 1980s Nicaragua was an economic disaster area and had sunk to being the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere except for Haiti.
Hannibal Smith was on to something.
"I figured you Black Force guys would be installing a dictatorship or, overthrowing a democracy!"
C.I.A. Trafficking of Cocaine to Finance Contra War
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gwu.edu%2F%7Ensarchiv%2FIMG%2Fnsa_sm.gif&hash=966957faa2d8586040ddfefcea337498487a2874)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=junMyaNIzHI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=junMyaNIzHI#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6dHqP9wc3k# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6dHqP9wc3k#)
The CIA flooded the streets of California with Crack Cocaine to finance the Contra War after Congress cut off the funding. As Governor of Arkansas, Bill Clinton was heavily involved with importing cocaine produced by the Contras.
QuoteNational Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 2 (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/nsaebb2.htm)
The Contras, Cocaine, and Covert Operations
An August, 1996, series in the San Jose Mercury News by reporter Gary Webb linked the origins of crack cocaine in California to the contras, a guerrilla force backed by the Reagan administration that attacked Nicaragua's Sandinista government during the 1980s. Webb's series, "The Dark Alliance," has been the subject of intense media debate, and has focused attention on a foreign policy drug scandal that leaves many questions unanswered.
This electronic briefing book is compiled from declassified documents obtained by the National Security Archive, including the notebooks kept by NSC aide and Iran-contra figure Oliver North, electronic mail messages written by high-ranking Reagan administration officials, memos detailing the contra war effort, and FBI and DEA reports. The documents demonstrate official knowledge of drug operations, and collaboration with and protection of known drug traffickers. Court and hearing transcripts are also included.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 23, 2011, 07:55:12 AM
C.I.A. Trafficking of Cocaine to Finance Contra War
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gwu.edu%2F%7Ensarchiv%2FIMG%2Fnsa_sm.gif&hash=966957faa2d8586040ddfefcea337498487a2874)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=junMyaNIzHI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=junMyaNIzHI#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6dHqP9wc3k# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6dHqP9wc3k#)
The CIA flooded the streets of California with Crack Cocaine to finance for the Contra War after Congress cut off the funding. As Governor of Arkansas, Bill Clinton was heavily involved with importing cocaine produced by the Contras in Nicaragua. The US is still heavily involved in drug trafficking. The drug war is bogus. It's a cover for US imperial activities.
QuoteNational Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 2 (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/nsaebb2.htm)
The Contras, Cocaine, and Covert Operations
An August, 1996, series in the San Jose Mercury News by reporter Gary Webb linked the origins of crack cocaine in California to the contras, a guerrilla force backed by the Reagan administration that attacked Nicaragua's Sandinista government during the 1980s. Webb's series, "The Dark Alliance," has been the subject of intense media debate, and has focused attention on a foreign policy drug scandal that leaves many questions unanswered.
This electronic briefing book is compiled from declassified documents obtained by the National Security Archive, including the notebooks kept by NSC aide and Iran-contra figure Oliver North, electronic mail messages written by high-ranking Reagan administration officials, memos detailing the contra war effort, and FBI and DEA reports. The documents demonstrate official knowledge of drug operations, and collaboration with and protection of known drug traffickers. Court and hearing transcripts are also included.
Documentation of Official U.S. Knowledge of
Drug Trafficking and the Contras
The National Security Archive obtained the hand-written notebooks of Oliver North, the National Security Council aide who helped run the contra war and other Reagan administration covert operations, through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed in 1989. The notebooks, as well as declassified memos sent to North, record that North was repeatedly informed of contra ties to drug trafficking.
Evidence that NSC Staff Supported Using Drug Money to Fund the Contras
In 1987, the Senate Subcommittee on Narcotics, Terrorism and International Operations, led by Senator John Kerry, launched an investigation of allegations arising from reports, more than a decade ago, of contra-drug links. One of the incidents examined by the "Kerry Committee" was an effort to divert drug money from a counternarcotics operation to the contra war.
On July 28, 1988, two DEA agents testified before the House Subcommittee on Crime regarding a sting operation conducted against the Medellin Cartel. The two agents said that in 1985 Oliver North had wanted to take $1.5 million in Cartel bribe money that was carried by a DEA informant and give it to the contras. DEA officials rejected the idea.
awesome i was waiting for you to get to this part.
Naming names worth mentioning
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During his time with the CIA in the Reagan administration, Secratary of War Robert Gates critisized his superiors for their "half hearted policy" in destroying Nicaragua, advocated air strikes and a naval quarantine of its ports, and even invoked the "Monroe Doctrine", declaring the "Western Hemisphere" as being "the sphere of influence of the United States."
From the National Security Archives (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB208/index.htm) declassified US documents:
QuoteRobert Gates, the man nominated by President George W. Bush and President Barrack Obama to be US secretary of defense, recommended in the 1980s overt military action against Nicaragua, including air strikes and a naval quarantine of its ports. In earlier posts at top levels of the CIA, Gates figured in the Iran-Contra affair, in which he engaged in sins of omission if not commission, hesitating to make inquiries and pass warnings that might have headed off this abuse of power. As the CIA's top manager for intelligence analysis in the early 1980s he was accused of slanting intelligence to suit the predilections of the Reagan administration and his boss, Director William J. Casey.
In a "straight talk" memorandum to Casey, Robert Gates concedes that the CIA's paramilitary force, the Contras, cannot overthrow the Sandinista government. Invoking the Monroe Doctrine and the U.S. loss in Vietnam, Gates argues that the CIA-run Contra war is "an essentially half-hearted policy."
He recommends that the Reagan administration initiate a "comprehensive campaign openly aimed at bringing down the regime," including "the use of air strikes" against Nicaragua. "The fact is that the Western Hemisphere is the sphere of influence of the United States," Gates advises. "If we have decided totally to abandon the Monroe Doctrine ... then we ought to save political capital in Washington, acknowledge our helplessness and stop wasting everybody's time."
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Among the leading figures in the CIA-Contra War was John Negroponte, who ran the American embassy in Honduras that was the base for the terrorist attacks on Nicaragua. He also participated in efforts to get the Honduran government to support the Contras after Congress banned direct U.S. aid to the Paramilitaries. Negroponte's profile had risen with his appointments as ambassador to Iraq in 2004 and director of national intelligence in 2005. Then was chosen to to oversee the dimplomatic component of the current war on terror at the United Nations. "Death Squads Negroponte" now works along side Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.
While overseeing the Contra war, Negroponte covered up death squad atrocities by the US organized, trained, armed, funded, and advised Battalion 3-16 in Honduras.
From the National Security Archives (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB151/index.htm) declassified US documents:
QuoteAs John Negroponte faced questioning about his activities in Honduras during the contra war, the National Security Archive posted additional documents from his chron file as ambassador. The documents, part of a large file of 470 cables obtained by the Washington Post through the FOIA, provide a virtual day-to-day record of Negroponte's unique tenure as ambassador, as he secured Honduran military, logistical and political support for the controversial CIA paramilitary campaign to overthrow the Sandinista government.
The 392 cables and memos record Negroponte's daily, and even hourly, activities as the powerful Ambassador to Honduras during the contra war in the early 1980s. They include dozens of cables in which the Ambassador sought to undermine regional peace efforts such as the Contadora initiative that ultimately won Costa Rican president Oscar Arias a Nobel Prize, as well as multiple reports of meetings and conversations with Honduran military officers who were instrumental in providing logistical support and infrastructure for CIA covert operations in support of the contras against Nicaragua -"our special project" as Negroponte refers to the contra war in the cable traffic.
Among the records are special back channel communications with then CIA director William Casey, including a recommendation to increase the number of arms being supplied to the leading contra force, the FDN in mid 1983, and advice on how to rewrite a Presidential finding on covert operations to overthrow the Sandinistas to make it more politically palatable to an increasingly uneasy U.S. Congress.
Conspicuously absent from the cable traffic, however, is reporting on human rights atrocities that were committed by the Honduran military and its secret police unit known as Battalion 316, between 1982 and 1984, under the military leadership of General Gustavo Alvarez, Negroponte's main liaison with the Honduran government. The Honduran human rights ombudsman later found that more than 50 people disappeared at the hands of the military during those years. But Negroponte's cables reflect no protest, or even discussion of these issues during his many meetings with General Alvarez, his deputies and Honduran President Robert Suazo. Nor do the released cables contain any reporting to Washington on the human rights abuses that were taking place.
The Strong Line of Continuity
In defiance of the Mafia-Don, Nicaraguans eventually reelected Daniel Ortega President of Nicaragua and a familiar pattern has returned.
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Last May Hillary Clinton railed against "growing Iranian, Chinese and Russian influence in the Western Hemisphere," which has ostensibly encouraged "leftist leaders like Venezuela's Hugo Chavez, Bolivia's Evo Morales and Nicaragua's Daniel Ortega to promote anti-U.S. sentiment and rely on aid from China, Iran and Russia."
She particularly singled out Nicaragua, stating "We are looking to figure out how to deal with [President Daniel] Ortega" as "the Iranians are building a huge embassy in Managua. You can only imagine what it's for."
In an article entiteled,
"Iran's Invisible Nicaragua Embassy", The Washington Post reports: (http://"http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/12/AR2009071202337.html")QuoteFeared Stronghold Never Materialized
MANAGUA, Nicaragua -- For months, the reports percolated in Washington and other capitals. Iran was constructing a major beachhead in Nicaragua as part of a diplomatic push into Latin America, featuring huge investment deals, new embassies and even TV programming from the Islamic republic.
"The Iranians are building a huge embassy in Managua," Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton warned in May. "And you can only imagine what that's for."
But here in Nicaragua, no one can find any super-embassy.
Nicaraguan reporters scoured the sprawling tropical city in search of the embassy construction site. Nothing. Nicaraguan Chamber of Commerce chief Ernesto Porta laughed and said: "It doesn't exist." Government officials say the U.S. Embassy complex is the only "mega-embassy" in Managua. A U.S. diplomat in Managua conceded: "There is no huge Iranian Embassy being built as far as we can tell."
New pretexts will be conjured up in the weeks and months ahead.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 23, 2011, 05:14:57 AMCheck my second post on page 1.
There is no explanation as to why you can't rant in your own words in that post. Nor is there an explanation as to why you use dubious sources. Sure, you use a couple of legit files, but it doesn't mean that the others are legit.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 23, 2011, 03:27:54 PM
ALL of the citations are legit.
Well, just because you said so, I guess it's settled!
::)
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 23, 2011, 03:27:54 PMSome of the narraration is by Noam. That's it. But you already know that. Now you're being dishonest.
You're missing the point. You're not using
your words.
US Death Squads in Honduras
The US turned Honduras into an instant colony in the early 1980s, a military base with thousands of American troops to support Death Squad operations in El Salvador and Guatemala, and, above all, to serve as a staging area, supply center, and refuge for the Contras and their terrorist war against Nicaragua.
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The US campaign of terror in Central America was overseen by Reagan's Ambassedor to Honduras - John Negroponte who secured Honduran military, logistical and political support for the Death Squad operations.
Insamuch as the uninterrupted continuance of such operations in Honduras required and obediant and passive population, the US gave Honduran military and police the training, arms, equipment, and funds needed to efficiently suppress dissidents - the anti-American types (who mockingly refered to their country as the "USS Honduras"), those involved in the solidarity campaigns for the Salvadoran rebels and the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, and those striving for social change within Honduras.
The Baltimore Sun reports: (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bal-negroponte1a,0,294534.story)
QuoteHundreds of Honduran citizens were kidnapped, tortured and killed in the 1980s by a secret army unit trained and supported by the Central Intelligence Agency.
The intelligence unit, known as Battalion 316, used shock and suffocation devices in interrogations. Prisoners often were kept naked and, when no longer useful, killed and buried in unmarked graves.
Newly declassified documents and other sources show that the CIA and the U.S. Embassy knew of numerous crimes, including murder and torture, committed by Battalion 316, yet continued to collaborate closely with its leaders.
U.S. collaboration with Battalion 316 occurred at many levels.
* The CIA was instrumental in training and equipping Battalion 316. Members were flown to a secret location in the United States for training in surveillance and interrogation, and later were given CIA training at Honduran bases.
* Starting in 1981, the United States secretly provided funds for Argentine counterinsurgency experts to train anti-Communist forces in Honduras. By that time, Argentina was notorious for its own "Dirty War," which had left at least 10,000 dead or "disappeared" in the 1970s. Argentine and CIA instructors worked side by side training Battalion 316 members at a camp in Lepaterique, a town about 16 miles west of Tegucigalpa.
* Gen. Gustavo Alvarez Martinez, who as chief of the Honduran armed forces personally directed Battalion 316, received strong U.S. support - even after he told a U.S. ambassador that he intended to use the Argentine method of eliminating subversives.
* By 1983, when Alvarez's oppressive methods were well known to the U.S. Embassy, the Reagan administration awarded him the Legion of Merit for "encouraging the success of democratic processes in Honduras." His friendship with Donald Winters, the CIA station chief in Honduras, was so close that when Winters adopted a child, he asked Alvarez to be the girl's godfather.
* A CIA officer based in the U.S. Embassy went frequently to a secret jail known as INDUMIL, where torture was conducted, and visited the cell of kidnap victim Ines Murillo. That jail and other Battalion 316 installations were off-limits to Honduran officials, including judges trying to find kidnap victims.
The exact number of people executed by Battalion 316 remains unknown. For years, unidentified and unclaimed bodies were found dumped in rural areas, along rivers and in citrus groves.
Late in 1993, the Honduran government listed 184 people as still missing and presumed dead. They are are called "desaparecidos," Spanish for "the disappeared." Mackay is the first person on the list to be found and identified. The discovery of an identifiable body has enabled prosecutors to try to bring his killers to justice.
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Ambassedor Negroponte's support was fundemental to Battalion 3-16's slaughter of Honduran citizens.
From the National Security Archives (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB151/index.htm) declassified US documents:
QuoteThe documents, part of a large file of 470 cables obtained by the Washington Post through the FOIA, provide a virtual day-to-day record of Negroponte's unique tenure as ambassador, as he secured Honduran military, logistical and political support for the controversial CIA paramilitary campaign to overthrow the Sandinista government.
Conspicuously absent from the cable traffic, however, is reporting on human rights atrocities that were committed by the Honduran military and its secret police unit known as Battalion 316, between 1982 and 1984, under the military leadership of General Gustavo Alvarez, Negroponte's main liaison with the Honduran government. The Honduran human rights ombudsman later found that more than 50 people disappeared at the hands of the military during those years. But Negroponte's cables reflect no protest, or even discussion of these issues during his many meetings with General Alvarez, his deputies and Honduran President Robert Suazo. Nor do the released cables contain any reporting to Washington on the human rights abuses that were taking place.
Furthermore, the Contras routinely used US military bases in Honduras to torture and execute prisoners.
From the National Security Archives (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB27/index.html) declassified US documents:
QuoteThese excerpts describe (1) the State Department-funded investigation in 1986 and 1987 that established repeated instances of the murder or torture of prisoners by the Nicaraguan contras based in Honduras (pp. 197-201); (2) the contra's 1987 "counterintelligence" campaign within their own ranks, which included CIA polygraph experts as well as routine torture and indefinite detention while the contras' CIA handlers "turned the other way" (pp. 194-195); and (3) Terry Ward's role with the contras (pp. 222-223).
Negroponte's profile had risen during the Bush administration with his appointments as ambassador to Iraq in 2004 and director of national intelligence in 2005. Then was chosen to to oversee the dimplomatic component of the current war on terror at the United Nations. Negropente now works along side Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.
US Imperialism in Haiti
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P77s-SeA8rs# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P77s-SeA8rs#)
^^
2004 US Military Coup in Haiti
Just beginning with the 1990 election of Aristide (far too narrow a time frame), Washington was appalled by the election of a populist candidate with a grass-roots constituency just as it had been appalled by the prospect of the hemisphere's first free country on its doorstep two centuries earlier. Washington 's traditional allies in Haiti naturally agreed.
QuoteThe fear of democracy exists, by definitional necessity, in elite groups who monopolize economic and political power.
-Africology professor and renowned Haitian scholar Bellegarde-Smith observes in his perceptive history of Haiti ; whether in Haiti or the US or anywhere else.
The threat of democracy in Haiti in 1991 was even more ominous because of the favorable reaction of the international financial institutions (World Bank, IADB) to Aristide's programs, which awakened traditional concerns over the "virus" effect of successful independent development. These are familiar themes in international affairs: American independence aroused similar concerns among European leaders. The dangers are commonly perceived to be particularly grave in a country like Haiti , which had been ravaged by France and then reduced to utter misery by a century of US intervention. If even people in such dire circumstances can take their fate into their own hands, who knows what might happen elsewhere as the "contagion spreads."
The Bush I and Clinton administrations reacted to the disaster of democracy by shifting aid from the democratically elected government to what are called "democratic forces": the wealthy elites, and the business sectors, who, along with the murderers and torturers of the military and paramilitaries, had been lauded by the Bush II administration, in their Reaganite phase, for their progress in "democratic development," justifying lavish new aid. "The praise came in response to ratification by the Haitian people of a law granting Washington 's client killer and torturer Baby Doc Duvalier the authority to suspend the rights of any political party without reasons. The referendum passed by a majority of 99.98%."
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The New York Times reports: (http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/03/world/haitian-ex-paramilitary-leader-confirms-cia-relationship.html?pagewanted=1)
QuoteThe former leader of Haiti's most feared right-wing paramilitary group has confirmed that he was a paid agent of the Central Intelligence Agency from 1991 to 1994. His relationship with the C.I.A., he said, started shortly after a right-wing military junta overthrew Mr. Aristide in September 1991 .
It has already been reported that leaders of the junta were on the C.I.A.'s payroll from the mid-1980's until at least the early 1990's. It also has been reported that the agency had set up a Haitian intelligence service whose members attacked Mr. Aristide's supporters, as did Mr. Constant's paramilitary organization, the Front for the Advancement and Progress of Haiti.
In an article entiteled, "HAITI: Rights Groups Disclose U.S. Support for Extremists", Inter Press Service reports: (http://www.williambowles.info/haiti-news/archives/rights_070296.html)
QuoteThe United States' role in Haiti became the focus of controversy again this week with the release of classified documents showing U.S. ties to extremist right-wing groups during the 1991-94 reign of the military junta there.
Thousands of pages of newly declassified U.S. documents, received by the New York-based Centre for Constitutional Rights (CCR), depict a U.S. government that understood the brutal nature of Haiti's rightist opposition — but denied it in public.
''Obviously, they were talking out of both sides of their mouth,'' CCR lawyer Michael Ratner said of the U.S. government.
''They were talking about restoring democracy to Haiti, but at the same time, they were undermining democracy in the coup period— at times supporting a group that committed terrorist acts against the Haitian people,'' Ratner told IPS.
He contended that U.S. suspicions of Aristide's leftist populism prodded them to seek support from even the most brutal anti-Aristide elements.
human rights groups blame FRAPH for the bulk of some 4,000 murders committed from Aristide's ouster in a September, 1991, coup until his return with U.S. support in October, 1994.
Refugees fleeing to the US from the terror of the US-backed dictatorships were forcefully returned, in gross violation of international humanitarian law. The policy was reversed when a democratically elected government took office. Though the flow of refugees reduced to a trickle, they were mostly granted political asylum. Policy returned to normal when a military junta overthrew the Aristide government after seven months, and state terrorist atrocities rose to new heights.
It therefore marked a positive step towards democracy as compared with the 99% approval of a 1918 law granting US corporations the right to turn the country into a US plantation, passed by 5% of the population after the Haitian Parliament was disbanded at gunpoint by Wilson's Marines when it refused to accept this "progressive measure," essential for "economic development."
Their reaction to Baby Doc's encouraging progress towards democracy was characteristic - worldwide -- on the part of the visionaries who are now entrancing educated opinion with their dedication to bringing democracy to a suffering world - although, to be sure, their actual exploits are being tastefully rewritten to satisfy current needs.
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The perpetrators were the army - the inheritors of the National Guard left by Wilson 's invaders to control the population - and its paramilitary forces. The most important of these, FRAPH, was founded by CIA asset Emmanuel Constant, who now lives happily in Queens, Clinton and Bush II having dismissed extradition requests -- because he would reveal US ties to the murderous junta, it is widely assumed. Constant's contributions to state terror were, after all, meager; merely prime responsibility for the murder of 4-5000 poor blacks.
Human Rights Watch letter to the New York Times: (http://www.nytimes.com/1999/11/11/opinion/l-they-terrorized-haiti-will-the-us-act-379352.html?ref=emmanuel_constant)
QuoteTo the Editor:
Your Nov. 10 front-page article on the United States role in Haiti does not describe the Clinton administration's role in shielding the men who ruled and terrorized Haiti from 1991 to 1994.
United States troops patrolling Haiti in 1994 allowed most of the worst criminals to flee the country, but seized numerous records from the army and death squads, as well as photographs of torture sessions. Haitian prosecutors have spent five years trying to recover these materials. The United States now says it will not return the files unless it can first delete all references to American citizens.
Moreover, 16 high-ranking Haitian military officers have reportedly been allowed to live in the United States, among them Emmanuel Constant, the leader of a paramilitary group, who has bragged about receiving regular payments from the Central Intelligence Agency.
REED BRODY
Advocacy Dir., Human Rights Watch
New York, Nov. 10, 1999
In an article entiteled "Renewed Outcry on Haitian Fugitive in Queens",The New York Times reports: (http://"http://www.nytimes.com/2000/08/12/nyregion/renewed-outcry-on-haitian-fugitive-in-queens.html?ref=emmanuel_constant")
QuoteHaitian-American leaders, outraged by the increasingly visible presence in Queens of a man accused of killing thousands in Haiti, are renewing a call to send the man back there for trial.
For more than five years, Emmanuel Constant, 43, the leader of a Haitian paramilitary group in the early 1990's, has lived intermittently with an aunt on a quiet street in southeast Queens since 1994, popping up at restaurants, coffee shops and nightclubs in Brooklyn and Queens and on Long Island.
His presence in the city has always angered Haitian exiles and human rights advocates who have tried to persuade the United States government to extradite him on murder charges.
Human Rights Watch reports: (http://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/05/opinion/l-keeping-secrets-on-haiti-611778.html?ref=emmanuelconstant)
QuoteKate Doyle is right to say the release of documents showing American complicity in genocide in Guatemala should ''set a precedent.'' In Haiti, some of the best evidence about the junta that ruled from 1991 to 1994 is in 160,000 documents the United States seized during its 1994 intervention. But Washington, determined to avoid revelations on its intelligence links to the junta, refuses to give the documents back without removing all American names.
Also, Washington has given Emmanuel Constant, its paid intelligence informant and leader of Haiti's most vicious paramilitary group, refuge from Haitian prosecution, apparently on condition that he not speak about his American connection.
In an article entiteled "Haitians Cry 'Assassin' Outside Queens Home", the New York Times reports: (http://www.nytimes.com/2000/08/13/nyregion/haitians-cry-assassin-outside-queens-home.html?ref=emmanuelconstant)
QuoteHigh-pitched wails and angry shouts pierced the damp quiet of a Queens neighborhood yesterday morning as about 30 people gathered at the home of a former paramilitary leader from Haiti to protest his presence in the United States.
A coalition of Haitian and human rights groups has tried to persuade the United States government to extradite Mr. Constant to Haiti for trial. And this is not the first such protest demanding his arrest.
Outrage at his presence in a heavily Caribbean neighborhood prompted the Immigration and Naturalization Service to detain him for a year. He was abruptly released in 1996, raising suspicions that Mr. Constant, who has said he was a paid informer for the Central Intelligence Agency, struck a deal with the United States government: his freedom for his silence.
Pierre Florestal, 64, the host of a radio show on Radio Soleil d'Haiti, said Mr. Constant's life of relative impunity symbolized the way the United States had too often treated Haiti and its people. Without accountability for those who tortured, maimed, terrorized and then fled to exile, Mr. Florestal said, the victims could not heal.
Recall the core element of the Bush doctrine, which has "already become a de facto rule of international relations," Harvard's Graham Allison writes in Foreign Affairs:
Quotethose who harbor terrorists are as guilty as the terrorists themselves.
- in the President Bush's words, and must be treated accordingly, by large-scale bombing and invasion.
When Aristide was overthrown by the 1991 coup, the Organization of American States declared an embargo. Bush I announced that the US would violate it by exempting US firms. He was thus "fine tuning" the embargo for the benefit of the suffering population.
TO BE CONTINUED
The Clinton Regime's Haiti Record
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVVRoWxFB1s# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVVRoWxFB1s#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0pkqHq6fpY# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0pkqHq6fpY#)
Clinton authorized even more extreme violations of the embargo: US trade with the junta and its wealthy supporters sharply increased.
The crucial element of the embargo was, of course, oil. While the CIA solemnly testified to Congress that the junta "probably will be out of fuel and power very shortly" and "Our intelligence efforts are focused on detecting attempts to circumvent the embargo and monitoring its impact," Clinton secretly authorized the Texaco Oil Company to ship oil to the junta illegally, in violation of presidential directives.
Knight-Ridder reports: (http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19941103&slug=1939459)
QuoteThe United States failed to take many steps that it had promised to choke the flow of money and goods to the Haitian dictators and their wealthy supporters.
According to documents and interviews with federal officials, investigators and targets of the sanctions, the U.S. government:
-- Never seized U.S. homes owned by coup supporters, despite a vow to the contrary.
-- Eroded its own embargo by buying baseballs and black-market gasoline from alleged backers of the regime and training military men who worked for it.
-- Subverted its own goals by granting embargo exemptions to U.S. companies and wealthy Haitians.
-- Delayed freezing Haitian leaders' assets for almost 15 months after the coup. By that time, the Bank of Boston found only 50.71 Haitian gourdes, worth about $5.07, in the accounts of Brig. Gen. Philippe Biamby, the Haitian army's chief of staff.
But more serious complaints - such as charges that Texaco distributed tankers of fuel - were allegedly left on the back burner.
Now the U.S. attorney's office and the General Accounting Office are examining the Texaco case and the handling of the embargo by the Office of Foreign Assets Control, the little-known agency that enforces sanctions. Investigators want to know if OFAC - or some other agency - bowed to political or business pressures and deliberately avoided taking action against sanction violators.
OFAC says it administered the Haiti embargo "consistent" with instructions from the White House, the State Department and the National Security Council. It didn't run an airtight embargo, because it wasn't told to run an airtight embargo.
This remarkable revelation was the lead story on the AP wires the day before Clinton sent the Marines to "restore democracy," impossible to miss - I happened to be monitoring AP wires that day and saw it repeated prominently over and over -- and obviously of enormous significance for anyone who wanted to understand what was happening. It was suppressed with truly impressive discipline, though reported in industry journals along with scant mention buried in the business press.
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Also efficiently suppressed were the crucial conditions that Clinton imposed for Aristide's return: that he adopt the program of the defeated US candidate in the 1990 elections, a former World Bank official who had received 14% of the vote. According to the plan, leaked to the Multinational Monitor (http://www.multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/issues/1994/08/mm0894_05.html) and The Institute for Food and Development Policy: (http://www.foodfirst.org/node/240)
QuoteTHE ARISTIDE GOVERNMENT of Haiti has agreed to a structural readjustment plan which adapts the economic approach favored by the World Bank and International Monetary Fund (IMF). The plan appears to veer away from the more populist line President Jean-Bertrand Aristide took before being ousted in a 1991 army coup.
Under the August 22 plan, Haiti commits to eliminate the jobs of half of its civil servants, massively privatize public services, "drastic[ally]" slash tariffs and import restrictions, eschew price and foreign exchange controls, grant "emergency" aid to the export sector, enforce an "open foreign investment policy," create special corporate business courts "where the judges are more aware of the implications of their decisions for economic efficiency," rewrite its corporate laws, "limit the scope of state activity" and regulation, and diminish the power of President Aristide's executive branch in favor of the more conservative Parliament.
Quoteas the "price" for [Aristide's] return the Clinton administration in conjunction with the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund demanded then President Aristide sign agreements which continue a long U.S. tradition of pushing policies which undermining Haiti's national and Haitians' household food security. These neoliberal economic policies are an instant replay of the neoliberal export driven policies in Africa and Central America Food First discussed in our last News and Views and our last Backgrounder, "Anatomy of a Disaster."
Haiti is being asked to eliminate the jobs of half its civil servants, massively privatize public services, dramatically slash tariffs and import restrictions, get rid of price and foreign exchange controls, grant "emergency" aid to the export sector, reinforce an "open foreign investment policy," create special corporate courts where "judges are more aware of the implications of their decisions for economic efficiency," rewrite its corporate laws, limit the scope of state activity and regulation and diminish the power of the executive branch in favor of the traditionally more conservative Parliament.
United Nations Deputy Special Envoy to Haiti, Paul Farmer (http://books.google.com/books?ei=U4izTfbmLZStgQfPxo3GCw&ct=result&id=JXlqAAAAMAAJ&dq=a+program+featuring+private+investments+from+the+United+States+that+would+be+drawn+to+Haiti+by+such+incentives+as+no+customs+taxes%2C+a+minimum+wage+kept+very+low%2C+the+suppression+of+labor+unions%2C+and+the+right+of+American+companies+to+repatriate+their+profits.&q=an+economic+program+guided+by+the+United+States%2C+a+program+featuring+private+investments+from+the+United+States+that+would+be+drawn+to+Haiti+by+such+incentives+as+no+customs+taxes%2C+a+minimum+wage+kept+very+low%2C+the+suppression+of+labor+unions%2C+and+the+right+of+American+companies+to+repatriate+their+profits.#search_anchor), in his 1994 book 'The Uses of Haiti' explains that the overall US imposed economic program in Haiti is:
Quotean economic program guided by the United States, a program featuring private investments from the United States that would be drawn to Haiti by such incentives as no customs taxes, a minimum wage kept very low, the suppression of labor unions, and the right of American companies to repatriate their profits.
We call this "restoring democracy," a prime illustration of how US foreign policy has entered a "noble phase" with a "saintly glow," the national press explained.
TO BE CONTINUED
Profit over People: Neoliberalism and Global Order
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfgwryiEygM# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfgwryiEygM#)
Programs such as this, and a series of other World Bank and IMF initiatives, "tightened monetary policy" for the next fifteen years and dictated how and where Haiti would be allowed to spend Haitian funds. On the eve of Aristide's reelection in 2000, an IMF letter of intent (http://www.imf.org/external/np/loi/2000/hti/01/) dictated how the new government's social policy would be run. Haiti was not allowed to hire any additional civil servants and had to "abstain from granting wage increases" to government employees.
The IMF also mandated "spending on education relative to GDP" and insisted that Haiti would not be allowed to "impose restrictions on payments and transfers for international transactions." In other words, Haiti wasn't allowed to spend any money domestically without IMF approval and they had to open their borders to foreign goods without restriction. The Haitian population was kept alive because of the development loans that were dispensed, but they were unable to break free from their cycle of debt and dependency.
Moreover, immediatly after the Clinton administration returned Aristide to office, The Los Angeles Times reported that: (http://articles.latimes.com/1994-09-17/news/mn-39484_1_president-aristide)
QuoteIn a series of private meetings, Administration officials admonished Aristide to put aside the rhetoric of class warfare and seek instead to reconcile Haiti's rich and poor. The Administration also urged Aristide to stick closely to free-market economics and to abide by the Caribbean nation's constitution — which gives substantial political power to the Parliament while imposing tight limits on the presidency.
Administration officials have urged Aristide to reach out to some of his political opponents in setting up his new government to set up a broad-based coalition regime. The Administration has made it clear to Aristide that if he fails to reach a consensus with Parliament, the United States will not try to prop up his regime.
-Which is a threat of regime change or assassination if Aristide defied the Mafia-don by not adopting the program of the right wing and abide by the harsh neoliberal rules he agreed to follow as the condition for the US allowing him to return to office.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cgdev.org%2Fuserfiles%2Fimage%2Fblog%2Fviews%2520from%2520the%2520center%2Fmade_in_haiti.JPG&hash=cd78e83877de49d3cc3b7c36b3c0a99fa5f084ad)
Not surprisingly, we are seeing the corporate sweatshop owners that Clinton and others had posited as the future stewards of Haiti's economy fire their employees en masse and flee the country for safer environs instead of helping out.
As democracy was thereby restored, the World Bank announced that: (http://multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/issues/1994/08/mm0894_05.html)
QuoteThe renovated state must focus on an economic strategy centered on the energy and initiative of Civil Society, especially the private sector, both national and foreign.
That has the merit of honesty: Haitian Civil Society includes the tiny rich elite and US corporations, but not the vast majority of the population, the peasants and slum-dwellers who had committed the grave sin of organizing to elect their own president.
World Bank officers explained that the neoliberal program would benefit the "more open, enlightened, business class" and foreign investors, but assured us that the program "is not going to hurt the poor to the extent it has in other countries" subjected to structural adjustment, because the Haitian poor already lacked minimal protection from proper economic policy, such as subsidies for basic goods. Aristide's Minister in charge of rural development and agrarian reform was not notified of the plans to be imposed on this largely peasant society, to be returned by "America 's good wishes" to the track from which it veered briefly after the regrettable democratic election in 1990. Matters then proceeded in their predictable course.
A 1995 USAID report (http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNABX246.pdf) explained that:
QuoteAn export-driven trade and investment policy has the potential to relentlessly squeeze the domestic rice farmer. This farmer will be forced to adapt, or (s)he will disappear.
-With incidental benefits to US agribusiness and investors. Despite their extreme poverty, Haitian rice farmers are quite efficient, but cannot possibly compete with US agribusiness, even if it did not receive 40% of its profits from government subsidies, sharply increased under the Reaganites who are again in power, still producing enlightened rhetoric about the miracles of the market. We now read that Haiti cannot feed itself, another sign of a "failed state."
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2009%2F03%2F31%2Fworld%2F31haiti2_600.JPG&hash=2884c2282cd38e53660e0957d48512228f2bd728)
In an article titled, "Free Market Left Haiti's Rice Growers Behind", the Washington Post reports: (http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/217.html)
QuoteThe IMF forced Haiti to open its market to imported, highly subsidized U.S. rice at the same time it prohibited Haiti from subsidizing its own farmers . Haitian farmers have been forced off their land to seek work in sweatshops, and people are poorer than ever.
From a grass-roots perspective in Haiti, the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, it seems undeniable that millions of people have been left behind in the rush to globalization. That much is evident from the distended stomachs of children in villages like Pont-Sonde, the throngs of women seeking jobs at 30 cents an hour in sweatshops owned by U.S. clothing manufacturers and the daily street demonstrations through the slums of Port-au-Prince by laid-off government employees.
A few small industries were still able to function, for example, making chicken parts. But US conglomerates have a large surplus of dark meat, and therefore demanded the right to dump their excess products in Haiti . They tried to do the same in Canada and Mexico too, but there illegal dumping could be barred. Not in Haiti , compelled to submit to efficient market principles by the US government and the corporations it serves.
TO BE CONTINUED
Homeboy, those are some posts. I've never seen posts like that, and I damn sure didn't think this thing would make it to 17 pages, but I digress...
The CIA has been spearheading nefarious operations for decades. Haven't you seen all of those Chuck Norris films?
Wouldn't be surprised if CIA came here and shot someone haha.
Yo horhey when are you gonna compile all this info into a one stop shop?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P77s-SeA8rs# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P77s-SeA8rs#)
2004 US Military Coup in HaitiThe punishment of Haiti became much more severe under Bush II - there are differences within the narrow spectrum of cruelty and greed. Aid was cut and international institutions were pressured to do likewise, while Washington propped up the Haitian elite. Once again, the elites in "America's backyard" are happy to be rescued by Fascism.
In an article titled, "Growing Disquiet in Latin America Over America's Role in the Fall of Haiti's Leader", The Gaurdian reports: (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/mar/07/usa.theobserver)
QuoteAfter Aristide took office in February 2001, the US played a leading role in forcing hundreds of millions of dollars in international aid to be cut off, while bolstering a minority opposition led by Haiti's tiny elite. In the past three years, the nation's already moribund economy further deteriorated and the government ground to a halt as the opposition refused to participate in elections.
Putting details aside, what has happened since is eerily similar to the overthrow of Haiti 's first democratic government in 1991. The Aristide government, once again, was undermined by US planners, who understood, under Clinton, that the threat of democracy can be overcome if economic sovereignty is eliminated, and presumably also understood that economic development will also be a faint hope under such conditions, one of the best-confirmed lessons of economic history.
Bush II planners were even more dedicated to undermining democracy and independence, and despised Aristide and the popular organizations that swept him to power with perhaps even more passion than their predecessors. The forces that reconquered the country in 2004 - at the instigation of the International Republican Institute - are mostly inheritors of the US-installed army and paramilitary terrorists.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wehaitians.com%2Ffeb_23_pro_97.jpg&hash=9bd141941cf939d857d78f6b721d22fc8bdccf77)
According to a preliminary report issued in the Dominican Republic (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-03/30/content_1390551.htm), the United States Government funded and trained a 600-member paramilitary army of anti-Aristide Haitians in the Dominican Republic with the authorization of the country's president, Hipolito Mejia. The funds—totaling $1.2 milllion—are directed through the International Republican Institute (IRI) on the pretext of encouraging democracy in Haiti:
Quote200 soldiers of the US Special Forces arrived in the Dominican Republic, with the authorization of Dominican President Hipolito Mejia, as a part of the military operation to train Haitian rebels.
With Paramilitaries in the streets (many of them former FRAPH militants) President Aristide was loaded onto a US military transport, in what he referred to as a "kidnapping," and airlifted into exile in the Central African Republic. Vice President Dick Cheney then appeared on FOX News and explained that the US had intervened because Aristide had "worn out his welcome."
The New York Times reports: (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/international/americas/29haiti.html?pagewanted=print)
QuoteThe International Republican Institute counseled the opposition to stand firm, and not work with Mr. Aristide, as a way to cripple his government and drive him from power . The I.R.I. was sending the instructions: "Hang tough. Don't compromise. In the end, we'll get rid of Aristide." The I.R.I. "was prepared to act aggressively to get Aristide out of power."
Several months later, the rebels marched on Port-au-Prince and Mr. Aristide left Haiti on a plane provided by the American government.
On Feb. 29 2004 the United States flew President Aristide to exile in South Africa.
A year later, the I.R.I. created a stir when it issued a press release praising the attempted overthrow of Hugo Chávez, the elected president of Venezuela and a confrontational populist, who, like Mr. Aristide, was seen as a threat by some in Washington.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhondurasoye.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F08%2Farmypointinggunsatpeople1.jpg%3Fw%3D480%26amp%3Bh%3D360&hash=6dacf4eba7b1c90f57bd2388ddc02dfdd724ed4a)
The Daily Beast reports: (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/uncovering-a-usplanned-co_1_b_14750.html)
QuoteThe federally funded International Republican Institute's (IRI) senior program officer for Haiti, Stanley Lucas, appeared on the Haitian station Radio Tropicale to suggest three strategies for vanquishing Haiti's president, Jean-Bertrand Aristide. First, Lucas proposed forcing Aristide to accept early elections and be voted out; second, he could be charged with corruption and arrested; and finally, Lucas raised dealing with Aristide the way the Congolese people had dealt with President Laurent Kabila the month before. "You did see what happened to Kabila?" Lucas asked his audience.
Kabila had been assassinated.
Whatever the case, Lucas and IRI, did more than talk. Throughout the last six years, IRI, whose stated mission is to "promote the practice of democracy" abroad, conducted a $3 million party-building program in Haiti, training Aristide's political opponents, uniting them into a single bloc and, according to a former U.S. ambassador there, encouraging them to reject internationally sanctioned power-sharing agreements in order to heighten Haiti's political crisis.
Moreover, Lucas' controversial personal background and his ties to Haitian opposition figures with violent histories -- including some who participated in a coup against Aristide in February -- raise questions about whether IRI's Haiti program violated its own guidelines and those of its funders.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_NR48UcL2XMI%2FRl4IH8iSXjI%2FAAAAAAAAAIM%2F92T1cSS-lZk%2Fs320%2FHaiti%2B-%2BUN%2Batrocities%2Bat%2BCite%2BSoleil.jpg&hash=511b68840c9645e3c33c462b865cd83cde535461)
In a statement, Jamaican Prime Minister P.J. Patterson (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/03/01/aristide.claim/) said that:
QuoteThe removal of President Aristide in these circumstances sets a dangerous precedent for democratically elected governments anywhere and everywhere, as it promotes the removal of duly elected persons from office by the power of rebel forces .
Despite maintaining widespread support by the majority of Haitians, the Washington Post (http://www.haiti-info.com/spip.php?page=imprimer&id_article=764) had earlier informed their readers that regime change was looming:
QuoteAristide has pushed with mixed success a populist agenda of higher minimum wages, school construction, literacy programs, higher taxes on the rich and other policies that have angered an opposition movement run largely by a mulatto elite that has traditionally controlled Haiti's economy.
The New York Times noted (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/international/americas/29haiti.html?pagewanted=print) that Washington ousted Aristide exactly for that reason:
QuoteVoice of the Poor
After two centuries of foreign occupiers, dictators, generals, a self-appointed president for life and the overthrow of more than 30 governments, Haitians finally had the chance in 1990 to elect the leader they wanted. The people chose Mr. Aristide, a priest who had been expelled from his Roman Catholic order for his fiery orations of liberation theology.
"He was espousing change in Haiti, fundamental populist change," said Robert Maguire, a Haiti scholar who has criticized American policy as insufficiently concerned with Haiti's poor. "Right away, he was viewed as a threat by very powerful forces in Haiti."
President Aristide promised not only to give voice to the poor in the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, but also to raise the minimum wage and force businesses to pay taxes. He rallied supporters with heated attacks on the United States, a tacit supporter of past dictatorships and a major influence in Haitian affairs since the Marines occupied the country from 1915 to 1934.
"He wasn't going to be beholden to the United States, and so he was going to be trouble," said Senator Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut, a Democratic critic of Bush administration policy on Latin America. "We had interests and ties with some of the very strong financial interests in the country, and Aristide was threatening them." Those interests, mostly in the textile and electronic assembly businesses, sold many of their products cheap to the United States.
The anti-Aristide message had currency around Washington. Mr. Einaudi, the veteran diplomat, recalled attending the I.R.I.'s 2001 fund-raising dinner and being surrounded by a half-dozen Haitian businessmen sounding a common cry: "We were foolish to think that we could do anything with Aristide. That it was impossible to negotiate with him. That it was necessary to get rid of him."
On Feb. 29 — Mr. Philippe's birthday — the United States flew President Aristide to exile in South Africa.
A year later, the I.R.I. created a stir when it issued a press release praising the attempted overthrow of Hugo Chávez, the elected president of Venezuela and a confrontational populist, who, like Mr. Aristide, was seen as a threat by some in Washington.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.world-crisis.com%2Fimages%2Fuploads%2Fhaiti_civ_deaths_1.jpg&hash=39f3388dfc41c5d8321efb7cc9e0ae48207abb7b)
Perhaps the cardinal sin, however, was not selling off state infrastructure to foreign investors. As part of the agreement for his 1994 return to Haiti, Aristide had to promise to open up the electrical grid, phone lines, flour mills and banks to privatization. As The New York Times reported, the US and other international donors refused to grant any promised aid until Haiti followed through on these commitments.
The New York Times reports: (http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/19/world/privatization-starts-feud-in-haiti.html)
QuoteThere are just 66,000 telephone lines in all of Haiti, and the Government-run telephone company says it does not have the money to install more. The electric company, airport and harbor, also Government-owned and in need of modernization, complain of the same lack of funds.
Selling a share of those and other state enterprises to private investors might appear to offer a promising way out for a poor, nearly bankrupt country. But a plan to do just that has split the Haitian Government into two bitterly feuding camps and driven a widening wedge between President Jean-Bertrand Aristide and Haiti's foreign aid lenders, led by the United States.
Hinging on the outcome of the policy dispute, the most serious the Aristide Government has experienced since being returned to power by American troops a year ago, is the disbursement of nearly half of Haiti's projected $350 million budget for this fiscal year. If Mr. Aristide does not go ahead with the privatization and other reforms he previously promised, the donor nations say they are prepared to hold back much of the aid they have pledged.
US Imperialism in Indonesia and Genocide Campaign in East Timor 1965-1999
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gwu.edu%2F%7Ensarchiv%2FIMG%2Fnsa_sm.gif&hash=966957faa2d8586040ddfefcea337498487a2874)
How the US Supported General Suharto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRf5T0GiefY# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRf5T0GiefY#)
Bill Clinton questioned on his Death Squad Killings in East Timor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzYcQUQgcpw# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzYcQUQgcpw#)
Death Squad Massacres in East Timor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZohcbKYg5s# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZohcbKYg5s#)
CIA-Military Coup and Genocide in Indonesia 1965
After the second world war, Indonesia had a prominent place in US efforts to construct an international political and economic order. Planning was careful and sophisticated; each region was assigned its proper role. The "main function" of Southeast Asia was to to provide resources and raw materials to the industrial societies. Indonesia was the richest prize.
In 1958, US Secretary of State John Foster Dulles (http://books.google.com/books?id=TJptHWc4i1EC&pg=PA351&dq=the+PKI+had+won+widespread+support+not+as+a+revolutionary+party+but+as+an+organization+defending+the+interests+of+the+poor+within+the+existing+system.&hl=en&ei=cJO0TavGOIn4gAf-17zGCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=the%20PKI%20had%20won%20widespread%20support%20not%20as%20a%20revolutionary%20party%20but%20as%20an%20organization%20defending%20the%20interests%20of%20the%20poor%20within%20the%20existing%20system.&f=false) informed the National Security Council that the main problem in Indonesia was that the:
Quotethe PKI had won widespread support not as a revolutionary party but as an organization defending the interests of the poor within the existing system.
And also that: (http://books.google.com/books?id=TJptHWc4i1EC&pg=PA155&dq=The+party%27s+mass+base+among+the+peasantry+had+been+attracted+by+the+PKI%27s+vigor+in+defending+the+interests+of+the+abangan+%28nominally+Islamic%29+poor+.&hl=en&ei=3JK0TfCvMY_EgAfYgtCgCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20party%27s%20mass%20base%20among%20the%20peasantry%20had%20been%20attracted%20by%20the%20PKI%27s%20vigor%20in%20defending%20the%20interests%20of%20the%20abangan%20%28nominally%20Islamic%29%20poor%20.&f=false)
QuoteThe party's mass base among the peasantry had been attracted by the PKI's vigor in defending the interests of the abangan (nominally Islamic) poor .
The head of State Department's Policy Planning Staff, George Kennan argued that: (http://books.google.com/books?id=rxFHpYix3BsC&pg=PA274&dq=it+would+only+be+a+matter+of+time+before+the+infection+would+sweep+westward+through+the+continent+to+Burma,+India,+and+Pakistan.&hl=en&ei=BJa0TeKsN6Li0QHgvMyrCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=it%20would%20only%20be%20a%20matter%20of%20time%20before%20the%20infection%20would%20sweep%20westward%20through%20the%20continent%20to%20Burma%2C%20India%2C%20and%20Pakistan.&f=false)
Quoteit would only be a matter of time before the infection would sweep westward through the continent to Burma, India, and Pakistan.
On October 29, one cable from the State Department—marked "Action" (http://books.google.com/books?ei=o5q0TeC_HoPHgAfUhNX6DQ&ct=result&id=36AtAAAAYAAJ&dq=Sooner+or+later+it+will+become+increasingly+clear+to+army+leaders+that+they+are+only+force+capable+of+creating+order+in+Indonesia%2C+and+that+they+must+take+initiative+to+form+a+military+or+civilian-military+provisional+government%2C+with+or+without+Sukarno.&q=Sooner+or+later+it+will+become+increasingly+clear+to+army+leaders+that+they+are+the+only+force+capable+of+creating+order+in+Indonesia%2C+and+that+they+must+take+initiative+to+form+a+military+or+civilian-military+provisional+government%2C+with+or+without+Sukarno.#search_anchor)—made it clear that the Johnson administration wanted a military dictatorship established, and was ready to support it financially and militarily. The message noted that Washington was developing its policy on Indonesia and wanted a military-run government:
QuoteSooner or later it will become increasingly clear to army leaders that they are the only force capable of creating order in Indonesia, and that they must take initiative to form a military or civilian-military provisional government, with or without Sukarno.
It urged the Embassy (http://books.google.com/books?id=36AtAAAAYAAJ&q=The+next+few+days,+weeks+or+months+may+offer+unprecedented+opportunities+for+us+to+begin+to+influence+people+and+events+,+as+the+military+begin+to+understand+problems+and+dilemmas+in+which+they+find+themselves.&dq=The+next+few+days,+weeks+or+months+may+offer+unprecedented+opportunities+for+us+to+begin+to+influence+people+and+events+,+as+the+military+begin+to+understand+problems+and+dilemmas+in+which+they+find+themselves.&hl=en&ei=e5u0TdTGDJPUgQeD-bDGCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA) to make this known to the army:
QuoteThe next few days, weeks or months may offer unprecedented opportunities for us to begin to influence people and events. Small arms and equipment may be needed to deal with the PKI.
The cable continued: (http://books.google.com/books?id=36AtAAAAYAAJ&q=As+events+develop,+the+Army+may+find+itself+in+major+military+campaign+against+PKI,+and+we+must+be+ready+for+that+contingency.&dq=As+events+develop,+the+Army+may+find+itself+in+major+military+campaign+against+PKI,+and+we+must+be+ready+for+that+contingency.&hl=en&ei=PZy0TeuICMXcgQeC9pHAAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA)
QuoteAs events develop, the army may find itself in major military campaigns against PKI, and we must be ready for that contingency.
Many of the cables—sent from Jakarta to Washington between October 1965 and February 1966—were written by the US Ambassador Marshall Green and were addressed to Secretary of State Dean Rusk and his aides. Green had arrived in Jakarta just before the coup, selected for the post by the Democratic Party administration of President Lyndon Johnson on the basis of definite experience. Green indicated (http://books.google.com/books?id=HPGlUj4cI_sC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=Despite+all+its+shortcomings,+we+believe+odds+are+that+army+will+act+to+pin+blame+for+recent+events+on+PKI+and+its+allies.+Much+remains+in+doubt,+but+it+seems+almost+certain+that+agony+of+ridding+Indonesia+of+effects+of+Sukarno+has+begun.&source=bl&ots=I65PsBaCpf&sig=sTQFhWL2J7VicPIOa844ROPALN8&hl=en&ei=76K0TamOHoyctwfwlvjpDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Despite%20all%20its%20shortcomings%2C%20we%20believe%20odds%20are%20that%20army%20will%20act%20to%20pin%20blame%20for%20recent%20events%20on%20PKI%20and%20its%20allies.%20Much%20remains%20in%20doubt%2C%20but%20it%20seems%20almost%20certain%20that%20agony%20of%20ridding%20Indonesia%20of%20effects%20of%20Sukarno%20has%20begun.&f=false) that Washington's long-held hopes that the military would remove Indonesian President Sukarno were finally coming to fruition:
QuoteDespite all its shortcomings, we believe odds are that army will act to pin blame for recent events on PKI and its allies. Much remains in doubt, but it seems almost certain that agony of ridding Indonesia of effects of Sukarno has begun.
He advised Washington to: (http://books.google.com/books?ei=waS0TYbKFpD1gAed2uzFCw&ct=result&id=36AtAAAAYAAJ&dq=Avoid+overt+involvement+as+power+struggle+unfolds+.+However%2C+indicate+clearly+to+key+people+in+army+such+as+Nasution+and+Suharto+our+desire+to+be+of+assistance+where+we+can+.+Maintain+and+if+possible+extend+our+contact+with+military+...+Spread+the+story+of+PKI%27s+guilt%2C+treachery+and+brutality+%28this+priority+effort+is+perhaps+most-needed+immediate+assistance+we+can+give+army+if+we+can+find+way+to+do+it+without+identifying+it+as+solely+or+largely+US+effort%29.&q=Avoid+overt+involvement+as+power+struggle+unfolds+.+However%2C+indicate+clearly+to+key+people+in+army+such+as+Nasution+and+Suharto+our+desire+to+be+of+assistance+where+we+can+.+Maintain+and+if+possible+extend+our+contact+with+the+military+...+Spread+the+story+of+PKI%27s+guilt%2C+treachery+and+brutality+%28this+priority+effort+is+perhaps+most-needed+immediate+assistance+we+can+give+army+if+we+can+find+way+to+do+it+without+identifying+it+as+solely+or+largely+US+effort%29.#search_anchor)
QuoteAvoid overt involvement as power struggle unfolds . However, indicate clearly to key people in army such as Nasution and Suharto our desire to be of assistance where we can . Maintain and if possible extend our contact with the military ... Spread the story of PKI's guilt, treachery and brutality (this priority effort is perhaps most-needed immediate assistance we can give army if we can find way to do it without identifying it as solely or largely US effort).
The threat of democracy was not overcome untill General Suharto siezed power in military coup in 1965, with Washington's strong support and assistance. Ralph McGehee, a senior CIA operations officer (http://books.google.com/books?ei=CZG0TfrdB4_3gAel--3FCw&ct=result&id=KlI_AQAAIAAJ&dq=Ralph+McGehee%3A+Disturbed+at+the+Chilean+military%27s+unwillingness+to+take+action+against+Allende.+the+CIA+forged+a+document+purporting+to+reveal+a+leftist+plot+to+murder+Chilean+military+leaders.+The+discovery+of+the+%27plot%27+was+headlined+in+the+media&q=Ralph+McGehee%3A+Disturbed+at+the+Chilean+military%27s+unwillingness+to+take+action+against+Allende.+The+CIA+forged+a+document+purporting+to+reveal+a+leftist+plot+to+murder+Chilean+military+leaders.+The+discovery+of+the+%27plot%27+was+headlined+in+the+media#search_anchor) in the 1960s, describes the terror of Suharto's takeover in 1965-6 as "the model operation" for the US-backed coup that got rid of Salvador Allende in Chile seven years later:
QuoteThe CIA forged a document purporting to reveal a leftist plot to murder Chilean military leaders.
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Immediatly after the coup, army led massacres wiped out the PKI and devastated its mass base. A CIA report (http://books.google.com/books?ei=o5i0TbXfN8nIgQeLooDGCw&ct=result&id=R6hDAQAAIAAJ&dq=In+terms+of+the+numbers+killed+the+anti-PKI+massacres+in+Indonesia+rank+as+one+of+the+worst+mass+murders+of+the+20th+century%2C+along+with+the+Soviet+purges+of+the+1930%27s%2C+the+Nazi+mass+murders+during+the+Second+World+War%2C+and+the+Maoist+bloodbath+of+the+early+1950%27s.&q=In+terms+of+the+numbers+killed%2C+the+anti-PKI+massacres+in+Indonesia+rank+as+one+of+the+worst+mass+murders+of+the+20th+century%2C+along+with+the+Soviet+purges+of+the+1930%27s%2C+the+Nazi+mass+murders+during+the+Second+World+War%2C+and+the+Maoist+bloodbath+of+the+early+1950%27s.#search_anchor) on the annihilation of the PKI and its supporters reported that:
QuoteIn terms of the numbers killed, the anti-PKI massacres in Indonesia rank as one of the worst mass murders of the 20 th century, along with the Soviet purges of the 1930s, the Nazi mass murders during the Second World War and the Maoist bloodbaths of the 1950s.
The US embassy in Jakarta supplied Suharto with a "death list" of Indonesian PKI members and crossed off the names when they were killed or captured. Suharto's tyranny "which created killing fields and mass graves exceeding those of Saddam Hussein by an order of magnitude lasted for over 30 years."
Documents from the US State Department and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) indicate that, having seized power on October 1, 1965, Indonesia's General Suharto and other army generals—acting on the urgings of US leaders—used military and Muslim death squads to massacre of hundreds of thousands of workers, students and peasants.
The Washington Examiner reports: (http://www.namebase.org/kadane.html)
QuoteWASHINGTON -- The U.S. government played a significant role in one of the worst massacres of the century by supplying the names of thousands of Communist Party leaders to the Indonesian army, which hunted down the leftists and killed them, former U.S. diplomats say.
For the first time, U.S. officials acknowledge that in 1965 they systematically compiled comprehensive lists of Communist operatives, from top echelons down to village cadres. As many as 5,000 names were furnished to the Indonesian army, and the Americans later checked off the names of those who had been killed or captured, according to the U.S. officials.
The killings were part of a massive bloodletting that took an estimated 250,000 lives.
The events were greeted with euphoria. The New York Times described the "staggering mass slaughter" as "a gleam of light in Asia," praising Washington for keeping its own role quiet so as not to embarrass the "Indonesian moderates" who were cleansing their society, then rewarding them with generous aid (6/19/66). "Almost everyone is pleased by the changes being wrought," C.L. Sulzberger commented (4/8/66). The Times itself editorialized (4/5/66) that the Indonesian military was "rightly playing its part with utmost caution." Time praised the "quietly determined" leader Suharto with his "scrupulously constitutional" procedures "based on law, not on mere power" as he presided over a "boiling bloodbath" that was "the West's best news for years in Asia"
Roland Challis, the BBC's south east Asia correspondent at the time, reported, "There was a deal, you see." The deal was that Indonesia under Suharto would offer up what Richard Nixon had called the richest hoard of natural resources, the greatest prize in south-east Asia.
The World Bank restored Indonesia to favour. Western governments and corporations flocked to Suharto's "paradise for investors,". (http://www.fair.org/extra/9809/suharto.html) For more than 20 years, Suharto was hailed as a "moderate" who is "at heart benign" (The Economist) as he compiled a record of slaughter, terror, and corruption.
TO BE CONTINUED.
US-Indonesian Genocide Campaign in East Timor 1975-1999
Bill Clinton questioned on his Death Squad Killings in East Timor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzYcQUQgcpw# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzYcQUQgcpw#)
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In 1975, the Indonesian army invaded East Timor, then being taken over by its own population after the collapse of the Portuguese empire. The US knew that the invasion was coming and approved it.
From the National Security Archive's declassified US documents: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB62/)
QuoteThe document shows that Suharto began the invasion knowing that he had the full approval of the White House.
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From 1974-1999, the Indonesian army relied on the US for 90% of its arms military hardware. Then Washington immediately stepped up the flow of arms while declaring an arms suspension.
From the National Security Archive's declassified US documents: (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB176/index.htm)
QuoteThe final report of East Timor's landmark Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation (CAVR) has found that U.S. "political and military support were fundamental to the Indonesian invasion and occupation" of East Timor from 1975 to 1999, according to the "Responsibility" chapter of the report posted today on the Web by the National Security Archive, which assisted the Commission with extensive documentation.
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Furthermore, In an article entitled, "US Trained Butchers of Timor",the Gaurdian reports: (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/1999/sep/19/indonesia.easttimor1)
QuoteUS trained butchers of Timor
Exclusive: Washington trained death squads in secret while Britain has spent £1m helping Indonesian army
Indonesian military forces linked to the carnage in East Timor were trained in the United States under a covert programme sponsored by the Clinton Administration which continued until last year.
The US programme, codenamed 'Iron Balance', was hidden from legislators and the public when Congress curbed the official schooling of Indonesia's army after a massacre in 1991. Principal among the units that continued to be trained was the Kopassus Ð an elite force with a bloody history Ð which was more rigorously trained by the US than any other Indonesian unit, according to Pentagon documents passed to The Observer last week.
Kopassus was built up with American expertise despite US awareness of its role in the genocide of about 200,000 people in the years after the invasion of East Timor in 1975, and in a string of massacres and disappearances since the bloodbath. Amnesty International describes Kopassus as 'responsible for some of the worst human rights violations in Indonesia's history'.
The Pentagon documents Ð obtained by the US-based East Timor Action Network and Illinois congressman Lane Evans Ð detail every exercise in the covert training programme, conducted under a Pentagon project called JCET (Joint Combined Education and Training). They show the training was in military expertise that could only be used internally against civilians, such as urban guerrilla warfare, surveillance, counter-intelligence, sniper marksmanship and 'psychological operations'.
Specific commanders trained under the US programme have been tied to the current violence and to some of the worst massacres of the past 20 years, including the slaughter at Kraras in 1983 and at Santa Cruz in 1991. The US-trained commanders include the son-in-law of the late dictator General Suharto, Prabowo Subianto, and his mentor, General Kiki Syahnakri Ð the man appointed last week by the so-called 'reform' government as commissioner for martial law in East Timor.
American sponsorship of the Indonesian regime began as a matter of Cold War ideology, in the wake of defeat in Vietnam. The left-wing movement in East Timor was feared by Jakarta and seen by the US as an echo of those in southern Africa and of Salvador Allende's government in Chile. Jakarta's harassment of the Timor government and the invasion of 1975 were duly encouraged by the United States.
The training of Indonesia's officer corps peaked during the mid-Eighties. In 1990 a former official at the US Embassy in Jakarta cabled the State Department to say US sponsorship had been 'a big help to the (Indonesian) army. They probably killed a lot of people and I probably have a lot of blood on my hands'.
Amnesty International's East Timor country specialist, Deborah Sklar, traces the regime's 'over-reliance on thuggish military operations' as being due to the demands of the foreign investment community and even from the World Bank.
She cites a blueprint called The East Asian Miracle, written by US Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers, in which he urges governments to 'insulate' themselves from 'pluralist pressures' and to suppress trade unions. This, she says, became a primary Kopassus role during the years of training by the United States.
'If the US,' says Sklar, 'has supplied to the Indonesians equipment that has been concerned in the perpetration of human rights abuses, then that is an outrage.'
The UN Security Council ordered Indonesia to withdraw, but that was an empty gesture. As UN Ambassador Daniel Patrick Moynihan (http://books.google.com/books?id=18xUF785rKsC&pg=PA192&dq=The+United+States+wished+things+to+turn+out+as+they+did+and+worked+to+bring+this+about.+The+Department+of+State+desired+that+the+United+Nations+prove+utterly+ineffective+in+whatever+measures+it+undertook.+This+task+was+given+to+me,+and+I+carried+it+forward+with+no+inconsiderable+success.&hl=en&ei=M7i0Tfz5O9GtgQf91ayxBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=The%20United%20States%20wished%20things%20to%20turn%20out%20as%20they%20did%20and%20worked%20to%20bring%20this%20about.%20The%20Department%20of%20State%20desired%20that%20the%20United%20Nations%20prove%20utterly%20ineffective%20in%20whatever%20measures%20it%20undertook.%20This%20task%20was%20given%20to%20me%2C%20and%20I%20carried%20it%20forward%20with%20no%20inconsiderable%20success.&f=false) explained in his memoirs:
QuoteThe United States wished things to turn out as they did and worked to bring this about. The Department of State desired that the United Nations prove utterly ineffective in whatever measures it undertook. This task was given to me, and I carried it forward with no inconsiderable success.
He also noted that within a few months 60,000 Timorese had been killed, "almost the proportion of casualties experienced by the Soviet Union during the second world war."
Atrocities continued with the support of the US and its allies. The death toll is estimated at about 200,000 - a third of the population – lost their lives. In 1989 Australia signed a treaty with Indonesia to exploit the oil of "the Indonesian Province of East Timor" - The treaty was put into effect immediately after the army massacred several hundred more Timorese at a graveyard commemoration of a recent army assassination. Western oil companies joined in the robbery, eliciting no comment.
Suharto remained "our kind of guy", (http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/31/world/real-politics-why-suharto-is-in-and-castro-is-out.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all) as the Clinton administration described him, untill he commited his first real crime, in 1998: dragging his feat on IMF orders and losing control over the population, though some like Suharto's longtime advocate Paul Wolfowitz, continued to support him. Suharto's fall from grace follows a familiar course: Mobutu, Saddam Hussein, Duvalier, Marcos, Somoza, etc. The usual reasons are disobedience or loss of control.
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Motive:The reasons Washington strongly supported the Suharto regime and the genocide campaign in East Timor were explained by Clinton administration officials.
the New York Times reports: (http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/31/world/real-politics-why-suharto-is-in-and-castro-is-out.html?pagewanted=all)
QuoteWhy Suharto Is In and Castro Is Out
Administration officials said the treatment of Mr. Castro, Mr. Jiang and Mr. Suharto was driven by very different litmus tests, a potent mix of power politics and emerging markets.
Mr. Suharto, who is sitting on the ultimate emerging market: some 13,000 islands, a population of 193 million and an economy growing at more than 7 percent a year. The country remains wildly corrupt and Mr. Suharto's family controls leading businesses that competitors in Jakarta would be unwise to challenge. But Mr. Suharto, unlike the Chinese, has been savvy in keeping Washington happy. He has deregulated the economy, opened Indonesia to foreign investors and kept the Japanese, Indonesia's largest supplier of foreign aid, from grabbing more than a quarter of the market for goods imported into the country.
So Mr. Clinton made the requisite complaints about Indonesia's repressive tactics in East Timor, where anti-Government protests continue, and moved right on to business, getting Mr. Suharto's support for market-opening progress during the annual Asian Pacific Economic Cooperation meeting in Osaka in mid-November.
"He's our kind of guy," a senior Administration official who deals often on Asian policy, said the other day.
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TO BE CONTINUED
Quote from: RagingDragon on Apr 24, 2011, 07:58:53 AM
Homeboy, those are some posts. I've never seen posts like that, and I damn sure didn't think this thing would make it to 17 pages, but I digress...
The CIA has been spearheading nefarious operations for decades. Haven't you seen all of those Chuck Norris films?
It was never a secret to begin with. Why the thread is titled "Declassified", I don't know.
Naming names worth mentioning
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Then the Assistant Secretary of State in the Carter administration - Richard Holbrooke could've stopped the genocide in East Timor by ordering Suharto - a US puppet - to withdraw, but he chose to praise the mass murderer's efforts to "resolve Indonesian problems" instead.
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QuoteSuharto: A Declassified Documentary Obit (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB242/index.htm)
National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 242
In August of 1977, then Assistant Secretary of State Richard Holbrooke traveled to Indonesia to meet with Suharto in the midst of one of the Indonesian military's brutal counterinsurgency campaigns in East Timor in which tens of thousands of East Timorese were being slaughtered. The State Department at the time wrote, "Assistant Secretary of State Holbrooke", who was also Obama's ambassedor to Pakistan, "that this would be an unusual opportunity to press the case for human rights and self-determination for East Timor", if that had indeed been the US goal.
Instead, once Suharto was met by Richard Holbrooke, he was praised by Holbrooke for Indonesia's human rights improvements and was told that he in fact welcomed the steps that Indonesia had taken to open East Timor to the West, allowing a delegation of congressmen to enter the territory under strict military guard, where they were greeted by staged celebrations, welcoming the Indonesian armed forces.
In his meeting with Suharto, the Assistant Secretary offered no criticism of Indonesia's human rights record while "acknowledging efforts President Suharto appeared to be making to resolve Indonesian problems," especially on East Timor, where he "applauded" the President's judgment in allowing Congressional members to visit the territory but remained mute on reports of ongoing atrocities. Suharto responded that Indonesia did "not seek to hide anything" in East Timor – at a time when journalists and relief organizations were banned and visitors allowed only under military escort.
TO BE CONTINUED
It's quite an interesting rogues gallery in the current administration.
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As US Commander in Chief of the Pacific (CINCPAC) from February 1999 to May 2000, Dennis Blair secured continuing US military aid to the Indonesian death squads by covering up their atrocities and lieing to Congress about them. He also opposed "trials, international or otherwise, for the high level perpetrators of mass violence."
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Obama Intelligence Chief helped killings in East Timorhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIMJG--YolQ# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIMJG--YolQ#)
QuoteHow Obama's New Intelligence Chief Ran Interference for Indonesia's Butchers (http://www.counterpunch.org/simpson12262008.html)
The Skeletons in Dennis Blair's Closet
By Bradley Simpson - research fellow at the National Security Archive in Washington, DC, where he directs the Indonesia and East Timor Documentation Project. (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/indonesia/index.html)
The presumed appointment by President-elect Barack Obama of retired Admiral Dennis C. Blair as his new Director of National Intelligence is being greeted with cheers by the national media, who hail his experience, bureaucratic infighting skills and comparatively moderate views on national security issues. The New York Times, in a recent profile, seemed much impressed by the fact that the 34-year Navy veteran once water skied behind an aircraft carrier, in addition to his stints with the National Security Council, the Central Intelligence Agency and the Institute for Defense Analysis (from which he resigned in 2006 over conflict of interest charges involving the F-22 raptor).
But human rights supporters are right to be worried that Dennis Blair will hardly lead the charge for reform in the nation's intelligence community after the Bush Administration's embrace of torture, rendition and other crimes. For in the period leading up to and following East Timor's August 1999 referendum on independence from Indonesia Blair, from his perch as US Commander in Chief of the Pacific (CINCPAC) from February 1999 to May 2000, ran interference for the Indonesian Armed Forces (TNI) as they and their militia proxies committed crimes against humanity on an awesome scale.
Following the ouster of long-time dictator Suharto in 1998, Indonesian president B.J. Habibie signaled that Indonesia would be willing to allow East Timor an up or down referendum on independence following 24 years of brutal Indonesian occupation. The Indonesian Armed Forces (TNI), hoping to sway the vote in Jakarta's favor, launched a campaign of terror and intimidation led by the Army, Police and local militia proxies in which they killed hundreds of people displaced tens of thousands, most infamously on April 6, 1999, when militia forces massacred 57 Timorese in a church at Liquica on the outskirts of the capitol Dili.
As readers of the Nation will recall from the reporting of Alan Nairn, two days after the massacre the Pentagon dispatched Blair two days later to meet with Wiranto and demand that he disband the militias and allow a fair vote in East Timor. Instead, Blair offered assurances of continued US support for the TNI and invited Wiranto to Pacific Command Headquarters in Hawaii as his personal guest. According to top secret CIA intelligence summary issued after the massacre, however (and recently declassified by the author through a Freedom of Information Act request), "Indonesian military had colluded with pro-Jakarta militia forces in events preceding the attack and were present in some numbers at the time of the killings."
A Top Secret Senior Executive Intelligence Brief from April 20, 1999 stated plainly that "to restore stability, the Indonesian security forces must stop supporting the militias and adopt a neutral posture." A Top Secret CIA Intelligence Report dated May 10, 1999 reported that "local commanders would have required at least tacit approval from headquarters in Jakarta to allow the militias the blatant free hand they have enjoyed." Blair's performance, which prompted a rebuke by the State Department, was part of a fierce bureaucratic struggle between the Pentagon and State Department and Embassy officers seeking to reign in the TNI's terror.
Immediately after the August 30, 1999 referendum, in which nearly 80% of Timorese voted for independence from Indonesia, TNI forces and their militia proxies launched a murderous scorched earth campaign, killing nearly 1,500 Timorese, forcing a third of the population from their homes and destroying most of the territory's infrastructure. Following a global outcry and enormous pressure from Congress and grassroots activists, President Clinton finally severed military ties on September 8, with Dennis Blair personally conveying news of the cutoff to General Wiranto.
By this point the TNI's – and by extension Wironto's - control of the terror operations in East Timor was being widely acknowledged internally by both State Department and CIA sources. On September 10 the US Embassy in Canberra, Australia dispatched a secret telegram to Washington reporting in the subject line that that the TNI was "controlling and assisting militia" in East Timor. Yet in Pentagon news briefing two weeks later Blair continued publicly to push the 'bad apple' line – characterizing the TNI's deliberate destruction of East Timor and murder of hundreds of people as "a bad breakdown of order with some elements of TNI contributing to it and not helping it."
He went on to insist that US training of the Indonesian Armed Forces had paid dividends, with "many of those officers who did have training and education in the United States ... are leading a very strong reform movement within TNI." As Dana Priest of the /Washington Post/ later reported, however, fully one third of the Indonesian officers indicted by Indonesia's national human rights commission for "crimes against humanity" committed in East Timor in 1999 were US trained.
Wiranto, also indicted, is now considering a run at the Indonesian presidency in 2009. The clear links between US training and TNI terror clearly did not trouble Blair, who spent much of his remaining time as CINCPAC fighting to restore the military ties to his allies in Jakarta that grassroots activists and their Congressional allies had worked since 1992 to sever, finally winning their resumption in 2002.
Blair's apologetics for murder and torture by the Indonesian armed forces in East Timor, and his opposition to trials, international or otherwise, for the high level perpetrators of mass violence, offers a sobering indication of the positions he is likely to take as Director of National Intelligence. President-elect Obama's choice suggests that he will resist - as Blair almost certainly will - demands for the prosecution of high-ranking Bush Administration officials, much less lower level employees in the Pentagon and Central Intelligence Agency, for torture, rendition and other crimes carried out in the name of the so-called War on Terror.
Bradley Simpson is assistant professor of history and international affairs at Princeton University and a research fellow at the National Security Archive in Washington, DC, where he directs the Indonesia and East Timor Documentation Project. He is the author of Economists With Guns: Authoritarian Development and U.S.-Indonesian Relations, 1960-1968.
Just a question Horhey, I know what you are trying to do, and I know you think it is for a good cause, the truth, BUT WHY post this all on an ALIEN AND PREDATOR FAN FORUM. Aren't there OTHER forums, speccifically political, where you would post this, and thus, have more effect and conversation. Because most who read this, simply don't care. This is because the internet is usually a way to get away from world affairs, especially a fan forum, not worry or get involved with them, like you want the readers of your post to do.
It has got more then 1,600 hits? Does this mean you are doing it for hits?
Even though this is my 9th post, how does it affect my point? Why post on a forum where you will be heard/listened to less, go to a political forum to post what you think. Not AVPGalaxy.
Also,
WHY post it on AVPGalaxy in the first place?
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 06:18:32 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:10:14 PM
It has got more then 1,600 hits? Does this mean you are doing it for hits?
Even though this is my 9th post, how does it affect my point? Why post on a forum where you will be heard/listened to less, go to a political forum to post what you think. Not AVPGalaxy.
Also, WHY post it on AVPGalaxy in the first place?
It's not reading me. Number doesnt change when I click on it. If you really want to know go back and look how it started.
How did that anwser my question? Why post on a forum, clearly where one escapes from real world political issues, to try to inform? Not to mention post pictures real dead bodies.
Also, why did you deleted the previous post?
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 06:24:35 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:21:07 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 06:18:32 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:10:14 PM
It has got more then 1,600 hits? Does this mean you are doing it for hits?
Even though this is my 9th post, how does it affect my point? Why post on a forum where you will be heard/listened to less, go to a political forum to post what you think. Not AVPGalaxy.
Also, WHY post it on AVPGalaxy in the first place?
It's not reading me. Number doesnt change when I click on it. If you really want to know go back and look how it started.
How did that anwser my question? Why post on a forum, clearly where one escapes from real world political issues, to try to inform? Not to mention post pictures real dead bodies.
Why talk about anything else in the General Discussion then? Why talk about tits and ass or anything else in an AVP forum. You're discriminating against this one issue. I sense an Obama follower...
1. Obama is a pretty bad president, I'm not Republican either, and how does that effect anything about this current exchange.
2. Do you see any other topic in general that deals with political issues on this scale?
3. Yes I am discriminting, because, even though I do not speak for everyone, I find it irritating and sad you are trying to get your voice heard on an AVP forum of all places. Not that AVP should be the only talking point, but do you see how one might not listen. Do you see how another forum might be a better place?
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 06:33:22 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:29:55 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 06:24:35 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:21:07 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 06:18:32 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:10:14 PM
It has got more then 1,600 hits? Does this mean you are doing it for hits?
Even though this is my 9th post, how does it affect my point? Why post on a forum where you will be heard/listened to less, go to a political forum to post what you think. Not AVPGalaxy.
Also, WHY post it on AVPGalaxy in the first place?
It's not reading me. Number doesnt change when I click on it. If you really want to know go back and look how it started.
How did that anwser my question? Why post on a forum, clearly where one escapes from real world political issues, to try to inform? Not to mention post pictures real dead bodies.
Why talk about anything else in the General Discussion then? Why talk about tits and ass or anything else in an AVP forum. You're discriminating against this one issue. I sense an Obama follower...
1. Obama is a pretty bad president, I'm not Republican either, and how does that effect anything about this current exchange.
2. Do you see any other topic in general that deals with political issues on this scale?
3. Yes I am discriminting, because, even though I do not speak for everyone, I find it irritating and sad you are trying to get your voice heard on an AVP forum of all places. Not that AVP should be the only talking point, but do you see how one might not listen. Do you see how another forum might be a better place?
Oh I see. So certain political issues should be off limits if they are too powerful.
Wow, I never said that, if you want to post political issues of this scale on this forum, be my guest, I'm only saying, do you see the
PROBLEM of posting on this forum, and not another. Nothing else, nothing more. Just that.
Are you ok? I never even heard of that thread, let alone read it while lurking.
I only said DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM OF POSTING SUCH A LARGE SCALE POLITICAL ISSUE ON A FORUM SUCH AS THIS, NOT ANYTHING ELSE.Yet you refuse to anwser the question. Do you see how that might affect the way people will see the issues you bring up.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 06:42:24 PM
I dont care man. You can have the last word. Just please go away after that.
Why can't you anwser the question? Your making me sound like Judge Judy, when all I'm asking is a simple yes or no?
DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM OF POSTING SUCH A LARGE SCALE POLITICAL ISSUE ON A FORUM SUCH AS THIS, NOT ANYTHING ELSE.Edit: Really, and delete all your posts after that. I smell rage quit.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2010%2F9%2F22%2F1285134137805%2FLarry-Summers-flanks-Bara-006.jpg&hash=104ba254791584be60ef2121ecfc9997346e64aa)
Lawrence Summers was the cheif economic advisor to President Obama. As US Treasury Secretary under the Clinton administration, Lawrence Summers wrote the blueprint called "The East Asian Miracle", in which he instructs Third World governments to "insulate" themselves from "pluralist pressures" and to suppress trade unions:
QuoteThe Gaurdian: US trained butchers of Timor (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/1999/sep/19/indonesia.easttimor1)
Exclusive: Washington trained death squads in secret while Britain has spent £1m helping Indonesian army
Amnesty International's East Timor country specialist, Deborah Sklar, traces the [Suharto] regime's 'over-reliance on thuggish military operations' as being due to the demands of the foreign investment community and even from the World Bank.
She cites a blueprint called The East Asian Miracle, written by US Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers, in which he urges governments to 'insulate' themselves from 'pluralist pressures' and to suppress trade unions. This, she says, became a primary Kopassus role during the years of training by the United States.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gwu.edu%2F%7Ensarchiv%2FNSAEBB%2FNSAEBB242%2Feconomists_with_guns.jpg&hash=111b11ce1f77bb73c72140fa557ba71fd598f388)
Larry Summers: We should dump our toxic waste in low wage countriesIn December 1991, while chief economist for the World Bank, Lawrence Summers wrote an internal memo saying that the Bank should encourage migration of "the dirty industries" to the less-developed countries because, amongst other reasons, health-impairing and death-causing pollution costs would be lower. Inasmuch as these costs are based on the lost eamings of the affected workers, in a country of very low wages the computed costs would be much lower. The memo states:
QuoteA given amount of health-impairing pollution should be done in the country with the lowest cost, which will be the country with the lowest wages. I think the economic logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest-wage country is impeccable and we should face up to that.
The New York Times - Furor on Memo At World Bank (http://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/07/business/furor-on-memo-at-world-bank.html?pagewanted=1)
Despite this memo receiving wide distribution and condemnation, Summers, in 1999, was appointed Secretary of the Treasury by President Clinton. This was a promotion from being Undersecretary of the Treasury-for intemational affairs.
After Summers' departure from the Obama team, in a handsome tribute, Obama issued a statement (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/21/AR2010092106077.html) saying:
QuoteI will always be grateful that at a time of great peril for our country, a man of Larry's brilliance, experience and judgment was willing to answer the call and lead our economic team.
And that's despite the fact that when he was Treasury Secretary, he prevented Congress from regulating derivatives, and exotic financial instruments which was one of the main factors that led to the crisis.
One leading economist who have been right all along in predicting what's happening, Dean Baker, pointed out that Obama selecting him, among others, to fix the economy is like selecting Osama bin Laden to run the war on terror:
QuoteBy Dean Baker
I usually don't watch much television news. When I do, I realize why. I saw Andrea Mitchell tonight talking about who President Obama will turn to for help in dealing with the financial crisis. The first two names were at the top of the list of people who gave us the financial crisis: Robert Rubin and Larry Summers. This would be a bit like turning to Osama Bin Laden for aid in the war on terrorism.
Rubin and Summers were both major advocates of the one-sided deregulation of the financial industry under which we maintained the security blanket of "too big to fail" for the Wall Street big boys, but gave them the green light to take whatever risks they wanted in order to enrich themselves. It would be difficult to imagine that President Obama would embrace people with such a dismal track record.
http://prospect.org/csnc/blogs/beat_the_press_archive?month=11&year=2008&base_name=andrea_mitchell_hasnt_heard_ab (http://prospect.org/csnc/blogs/beat_the_press_archive?month=11&year=2008&base_name=andrea_mitchell_hasnt_heard_ab)
Really, just moving on? All I want is a simple yes or no, the more you delay, the less credible you look, which is how I assume you want to come off.
DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM OF POSTING SUCH A LARGE SCALE POLITICAL ISSUE ON A FORUM SUCH AS THIS, NOT ANYTHING ELSE.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 06:57:01 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:52:13 PM
Really, just moving on? All I want is a simple yes or no, the more you delay, the less credible you look, which is how I assume you want to come off.
DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM OF POSTING SUCH A LARGE SCALE POLITICAL ISSUE ON A FORUM SUCH AS THIS, NOT ANYTHING ELSE.
Ok if it will make you go away I'll answer your question:
Nope.
And this is why, not many listens to you here, because of your arrogant attitude, lack of appreciation for others opinions then your own, as well as feedback, and yet continuing to post walls of pictures and text like you are on a crusade. It only makes you look bonkers, not smart, and it makes your objective of educating less and less credible in the eyes of the reader.
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:59:41 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 06:57:01 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:52:13 PM
Really, just moving on? All I want is a simple yes or no, the more you delay, the less credible you look, which is how I assume you want to come off.
DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM OF POSTING SUCH A LARGE SCALE POLITICAL ISSUE ON A FORUM SUCH AS THIS, NOT ANYTHING ELSE.
Ok if it will make you go away I'll answer your question:
Nope.
And this is why, not many listens to you here, because of your arrogant attitude, lack of appreciation for others opinions then your own, as well as feedback, and yet continuing to post walls of pictures and text like you are on a crusade. It only makes you look bonkers, not smart, and it makes your objective of educating less and less credible in the eyes of the reader.
This is what happenned man. In the other political thread, I made the statement that it doesnt matter who's President, the policies will remain largely the same and I was called a nutjob. My analysis was challanged so I am now backing it up. Was it the right choice? Probobly not. But I always finish what I start no matter what it is. You understand?
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:59:41 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 06:57:01 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:52:13 PM
Really, just moving on? All I want is a simple yes or no, the more you delay, the less credible you look, which is how I assume you want to come off.
DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM OF POSTING SUCH A LARGE SCALE POLITICAL ISSUE ON A FORUM SUCH AS THIS, NOT ANYTHING ELSE.
Ok if it will make you go away I'll answer your question:
Nope.
And this is why, not many listens to you here, because of your arrogant attitude, lack of appreciation for others opinions then your own, as well as feedback, and yet continuing to post walls of pictures and text like you are on a crusade. It only makes you look bonkers, not smart, and it makes your objective of educating less and less credible in the eyes of the reader.
I don't think you're gonna get very far, Mike. Just let him get on with it and if people wanna read it they will. Personally I agree with you but nevermind.
I understand, it may be against the rules, but I love watching him squirm, it is insanely entertaining. :P But it is useless, I admit.
Quote from: Purebreedalien on Apr 25, 2011, 07:06:46 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:59:41 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 06:57:01 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:52:13 PM
Really, just moving on? All I want is a simple yes or no, the more you delay, the less credible you look, which is how I assume you want to come off.
DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM OF POSTING SUCH A LARGE SCALE POLITICAL ISSUE ON A FORUM SUCH AS THIS, NOT ANYTHING ELSE.
Ok if it will make you go away I'll answer your question:
Nope.
And this is why, not many listens to you here, because of your arrogant attitude, lack of appreciation for others opinions then your own, as well as feedback, and yet continuing to post walls of pictures and text like you are on a crusade. It only makes you look bonkers, not smart, and it makes your objective of educating less and less credible in the eyes of the reader.
I don't think you're gonna get very far, Mike. Just let him get on with it and if people wanna read it they will. Personally I agree with you but nevermind.
You're one of the one's that called me a "conspiracy theorist" and now that Im backing it up you're agreeing with him?
No, you aren't backing anything up. You are only backing yourself up agaisnt the wall by not anwsering a simple question for more then an hour. Your final anwser, was the one I anticipated, and it's the one which makes you look more like a sociopathic attention seeker then anything else. My opinion, you could care less about what you are posting.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 07:20:07 PM
Quote from: Purebreedalien on Apr 25, 2011, 07:06:46 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:59:41 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 06:57:01 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:52:13 PM
Really, just moving on? All I want is a simple yes or no, the more you delay, the less credible you look, which is how I assume you want to come off.
DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM OF POSTING SUCH A LARGE SCALE POLITICAL ISSUE ON A FORUM SUCH AS THIS, NOT ANYTHING ELSE.
Ok if it will make you go away I'll answer your question:
Nope.
And this is why, not many listens to you here, because of your arrogant attitude, lack of appreciation for others opinions then your own, as well as feedback, and yet continuing to post walls of pictures and text like you are on a crusade. It only makes you look bonkers, not smart, and it makes your objective of educating less and less credible in the eyes of the reader.
I don't think you're gonna get very far, Mike. Just let him get on with it and if people wanna read it they will. Personally I agree with you but nevermind.
You're one of the one's that called me a "conspiracy theorist" and now that Im backing it up you're agreeing with him?
Hey, I didn't even read any of the posts properly because, well, tl;dr. But maybe 'conspiracy theorist' was the wrong title, but I agree with him that hardly anybody is gonna read it and it's certainly not a place I would post something like this.
Also, I hate political bullshit and don't give a flying f**k about who's running my country or what's happening inside it. As long as my family and my friends are OK I don't care either way. Maybe I will when I'm older, but in the foreseeable future? No way.
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 07:22:24 PM
No, you aren't backing anything up. You are only backing yourself up agaisnt the wall by not anwsering a simple question for more then an hour. Your final anwser, was the one I anticipated, and it's the one which makes you look more like a sociopathic attention seeker then anything else. My opinion, you could care less about what you are posting.
Now you're just harassing me. You're clearly looking for trouble. You're opinion is silly. I wouldnt know about any of this if I didnt care, now move on and stop wasting your time and mine.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 07:38:36 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 07:22:24 PM
No, you aren't backing anything up. You are only backing yourself up agaisnt the wall by not anwsering a simple question for more then an hour. Your final anwser, was the one I anticipated, and it's the one which makes you look more like a sociopathic attention seeker then anything else. My opinion, you could care less about what you are posting.
Now you're just harassing me. You're clearly looking for trouble. You're opinion is silly. I wouldnt know about any of this if I didnt care, now move on and stop wasting your time and mine.
You better watch out, I can waste time. Be afraid, be very afraid.
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 07:41:11 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 07:38:36 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 07:22:24 PM
No, you aren't backing anything up. You are only backing yourself up agaisnt the wall by not anwsering a simple question for more then an hour. Your final anwser, was the one I anticipated, and it's the one which makes you look more like a sociopathic attention seeker then anything else. My opinion, you could care less about what you are posting.
Now you're just harassing me. You're clearly looking for trouble. You're opinion is silly. I wouldnt know about any of this if I didnt care, now move on and stop wasting your time and mine.
You better watch out, I can waste time. Be afraid, be very afraid.
Yea, because that's easy to do on a PC.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 07:41:11 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 07:38:36 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 07:22:24 PM
No, you aren't backing anything up. You are only backing yourself up agaisnt the wall by not anwsering a simple question for more then an hour. Your final anwser, was the one I anticipated, and it's the one which makes you look more like a sociopathic attention seeker then anything else. My opinion, you could care less about what you are posting.
Now you're just harassing me. You're clearly looking for trouble. You're opinion is silly. I wouldnt know about any of this if I didnt care, now move on and stop wasting your time and mine.
You better watch out, I can waste time. Be afraid, be very afraid.
Yea, because that's easy to do on a PC.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fccn1.net%2FPOTD4%2Fyoda-pictures%2Fyoda-closeup.jpg&hash=742ddafc35dcdbff0ccd35729e63cd1e7ff327d3)
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 07:53:40 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 07:41:11 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 07:38:36 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 07:22:24 PM
No, you aren't backing anything up. You are only backing yourself up agaisnt the wall by not anwsering a simple question for more then an hour. Your final anwser, was the one I anticipated, and it's the one which makes you look more like a sociopathic attention seeker then anything else. My opinion, you could care less about what you are posting.
Now you're just harassing me. You're clearly looking for trouble. You're opinion is silly. I wouldnt know about any of this if I didnt care, now move on and stop wasting your time and mine.
You better watch out, I can waste time. Be afraid, be very afraid.
Yea, because that's easy to do on a PC.
http://ccn1.net/POTD4/yoda-pictures/yoda-closeup.jpg
Since you're so determined to shut me up, just send me a message and you can come here and we'll go somewhere so you can harrass me in person. It's all up to you. How badly do you want me to stop? There's a lot of pages left to fill with more gore (lots of decapited heads, burned bodies and disfigured children) and juicy documents. Lots of documents. Lots of history. Lots of misery. Lots of atrocities. Lots of death squads. Lots of dictators. Plenty of widowed mothers. Plenty orphaned children. Plenty of rotting corpses. Plenty of starving people. On and on and on and on and on. You know why?
Because it never ends...Never..
I love stopping you from spreading your information though, the more orphans the better. It's all part of my diabolical plan.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.majhost.com%2Fgallery%2FHI%2FXFire%2Fcapn2.gif&hash=08e09657c52fc78e4ed1ca3bbef72066187946c4)
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 06:52:13 PM
Really, just moving on? All I want is a simple yes or no, the more you delay, the less credible you look, which is how I assume you want to come off.
DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM OF POSTING SUCH A LARGE SCALE POLITICAL ISSUE ON A FORUM SUCH AS THIS, NOT ANYTHING ELSE.
It's in the general discussion forum, not a forum related to Alien and Predators. Thus, it has just as much right to be here as a "Make People Laugh" thread, or a "Favourite hot women" thread. As long as it breaks no rules, it's fine.
Now, WHY would he post it on this site and not on another politically oriented site? Maybe this is the only site he frequents. Who knows, who cares. The fact that you take issue with it and continue to post ridiculous, annoying, and time wasting posts in a thread you've said you disagree with shows you to be either a post whore or a general nuisance, neither of which are really appreciated. You can ignore the thread and not read it. Maybe some people DO want to read it. Quit whining and do something about it: STOP READING.
The majority of people don't want to read it. And I never said HE COULDN'T, I typed that out.
I said, don't you see the problem of posting it here, where people won't care as much then on a political forum. He refused to anwser the question and ended up making himself look like a bafoon.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 08:07:47 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 07:53:40 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 07:41:11 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 07:38:36 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 07:22:24 PM
No, you aren't backing anything up. You are only backing yourself up agaisnt the wall by not anwsering a simple question for more then an hour. Your final anwser, was the one I anticipated, and it's the one which makes you look more like a sociopathic attention seeker then anything else. My opinion, you could care less about what you are posting.
Now you're just harassing me. You're clearly looking for trouble. You're opinion is silly. I wouldnt know about any of this if I didnt care, now move on and stop wasting your time and mine.
You better watch out, I can waste time. Be afraid, be very afraid.
Yea, because that's easy to do on a PC.
http://ccn1.net/POTD4/yoda-pictures/yoda-closeup.jpg
Since you're so determined to shut me up, just send me a message and you can come here and we'll go somewhere so you can harrass me in person. It's all up to you. How badly do you want me to stop? There's a lot of pages left to fill with more gore (lots of decapited heads, burned bodies and disfigured children) and juicy documents. Lots of documents. Lots of history. Lots of misery. Lots of atrocities. Lots of death squads. Lots of dictators. Plenty of widowed mothers. Plenty orphaned children. Plenty of rotting corpses. Plenty of starving people. On and on and on and on and on. You know why?
Because it never ends...Never..
Horhey i dont come onto this site to look at decapitated heads,burned bodies and disfigured children ok?Is this stuff even SFW?And i certainly dont come on here to read about political stuff,infact i havnt even read any of your posts,except the one above,nor do i intend to read them.
^ Which is the general consensus. So why don't you post this at "Above Top Secret" or a similar site. I fail to see the logic.
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:19:20 PM
The majority of people don't want to read it. And I never said HE COULDN'T, I typed that out.
I said, don't you see the problem of posting it here, where people won't care as much then on a political forum. He refused to anwser the question and ended up making himself look like a bafoon.
While I agree, that's besides the point. And really, there is no problem posting here. He's breaking no rules.
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:23:19 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:19:20 PM
The majority of people don't want to read it. And I never said HE COULDN'T, I typed that out.
I said, don't you see the problem of posting it here, where people won't care as much then on a political forum. He refused to anwser the question and ended up making himself look like a bafoon.
While I agree, that's besides the point. And really, there is no problem posting here. He's breaking no rules.
Did I ever say he was?
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:23:19 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:19:20 PM
The majority of people don't want to read it. And I never said HE COULDN'T, I typed that out.
I said, don't you see the problem of posting it here, where people won't care as much then on a political forum. He refused to anwser the question and ended up making himself look like a bafoon.
While I agree, that's besides the point. And really, there is no problem posting here. He's breaking no rules.
Apart from, y'know, this one
Quote- Don't post offensive Pictures/Videos. This includes posting and/or linking to pictures or videos that people may find offensive. For example, posting pornography is not allowed. Also avoid posting pictures that directly insult other members.
if he posts pictures of severed heads and charred bodies.
Quote from: Effectz on Apr 25, 2011, 08:21:14 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 08:07:47 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 07:53:40 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 07:41:11 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 07:38:36 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 07:22:24 PM
No, you aren't backing anything up. You are only backing yourself up agaisnt the wall by not anwsering a simple question for more then an hour. Your final anwser, was the one I anticipated, and it's the one which makes you look more like a sociopathic attention seeker then anything else. My opinion, you could care less about what you are posting.
Now you're just harassing me. You're clearly looking for trouble. You're opinion is silly. I wouldnt know about any of this if I didnt care, now move on and stop wasting your time and mine.
You better watch out, I can waste time. Be afraid, be very afraid.
Yea, because that's easy to do on a PC.
http://ccn1.net/POTD4/yoda-pictures/yoda-closeup.jpg
Since you're so determined to shut me up, just send me a message and you can come here and we'll go somewhere so you can harrass me in person. It's all up to you. How badly do you want me to stop? There's a lot of pages left to fill with more gore (lots of decapited heads, burned bodies and disfigured children) and juicy documents. Lots of documents. Lots of history. Lots of misery. Lots of atrocities. Lots of death squads. Lots of dictators. Plenty of widowed mothers. Plenty orphaned children. Plenty of rotting corpses. Plenty of starving people. On and on and on and on and on. You know why?
Because it never ends...Never..
Horhey i dont come onto this site to look at decapitated heads,burned bodies and disfigured children ok?Is this stuff even SFW?And i certainly dont come on here to read about political stuff,infact i havnt even read any of your posts,except the one above,nor do i intend to read them.
Then why'd you come here in the first place? That's your choice not to look. Who's forcing you? Some people just dont want to know these things because it takes them out of their comfort zones. Then you might have to do something about it and no one wants to do that.
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:24:07 PM
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:23:19 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:19:20 PM
The majority of people don't want to read it. And I never said HE COULDN'T, I typed that out.
I said, don't you see the problem of posting it here, where people won't care as much then on a political forum. He refused to anwser the question and ended up making himself look like a bafoon.
While I agree, that's besides the point. And really, there is no problem posting here. He's breaking no rules.
Did I ever say he was?
No, but you asked him if he saw the problem. And the only time a problem would arise is if he was breaking the rules. He's not, ergo there's no problem.
QuoteDon't post offensive Pictures/Videos. This includes posting and/or linking to pictures or videos that people may find offensive. For example, posting pornography is not allowed. Also avoid posting pictures that directly insult other members.
So basically anyone here has seen people's skull and spines ripped out, bodies blown apart, faces destroyed and people killed from the inside in the Alien and Predator films, yet the aftermath in real life is too much for them? Really? The subject matter of this site is R rated. This stuff Horhey's posting is nothing compared to the movies this site was made to discuss.
Nobody wants to do it, Horhey, because you are a TERRIBLE salesmen. Your pitch makes you look more like a deranged forum spammer, then a white knight.
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:19:20 PM
The majority of people don't want to read it. And I never said HE COULDN'T, I typed that out.
I said, don't you see the problem of posting it here, where people won't care as much then on a political forum. He refused to anwser the question and ended up making himself look like a bafoon.
Did you not see this? I answered your question.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 07:05:01 PMThis is what happenned man. In the other political thread, I made the statement that it doesnt matter who's President, the policies will remain largely the same and I was called a nutjob. My analysis was challanged so I am now backing it up. Was it the right choice? Probobly not. But I always finish what I start no matter what it is. You understand?
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:29:32 PM
No, but you asked him if he saw the problem. And the only time a problem would arise is if he was breaking the rules. He's not, ergo there's no problem.
No, the problem is that his point is to motivate people to speak up against the government, and like I said, this simply isn't the greatest site to do that. Can he, absolutley, does it mean he will achieve his goal? Nope.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 08:30:06 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:19:20 PM
The majority of people don't want to read it. And I never said HE COULDN'T, I typed that out.
I said, don't you see the problem of posting it here, where people won't care as much then on a political forum. He refused to anwser the question and ended up making himself look like a bafoon.
Did you not see this? I answered your question.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 07:05:01 PMThis is what happenned man. In the other political thread, I made the statement that it doesnt matter who's President, the policies will remain largely the same and I was called a nutjob. My analysis was challanged so I am now backing it up. Was it the right choice? Probobly not. But I always finish what I start no matter what it is. You understand?
The only thing I see here is you making yourself look like more of an idiot then you did before.
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:29:32 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:24:07 PM
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:23:19 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:19:20 PM
The majority of people don't want to read it. And I never said HE COULDN'T, I typed that out.
I said, don't you see the problem of posting it here, where people won't care as much then on a political forum. He refused to anwser the question and ended up making himself look like a bafoon.
While I agree, that's besides the point. And really, there is no problem posting here. He's breaking no rules.
Did I ever say he was?
No, but you asked him if he saw the problem. And the only time a problem would arise is if he was breaking the rules. He's not, ergo there's no problem.
QuoteDon't post offensive Pictures/Videos. This includes posting and/or linking to pictures or videos that people may find offensive. For example, posting pornography is not allowed. Also avoid posting pictures that directly insult other members.
So basically anyone here has seen people's skull and spines ripped out, bodies blown apart, faces destroyed and people killed from the inside in the Alien and Predator films, yet the aftermath in real life is too much for them? Really? The subject matter of this site is R rated. This stuff Horhey's posting is nothing compared to the movies this site was made to discuss.
Yes, but the movies aren't real. Nor do the movies show disfigured children, and as Vul said earlier, not everyone has a thousand yard stare. It's against the rules to post shit like that, maybe you should realise that everything that happens in the movies is fictitious, and disfigured kids, severed heads and grilled bodies are not.
QuoteYes, but the movies aren't real. Nor do the movies show disfigured children, and as Vul said earlier, not everyone has a thousand yard stare. It's against the rules to post shit like that, maybe you should realise that everything that happens in the movies is fictitious, and disfigured kids, severed heads and grilled bodies are not.
That is true. All I'm saying is that people come here with full knowledge they may see gore. If you can categorize these pictures as fictitious, they're easier to look at.
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:35:41 PM
QuoteYes, but the movies aren't real. Nor do the movies show disfigured children, and as Vul said earlier, not everyone has a thousand yard stare. It's against the rules to post shit like that, maybe you should realise that everything that happens in the movies is fictitious, and disfigured kids, severed heads and grilled bodies are not.
That is true. All I'm saying is that people come here with full knowledge they may see gore. If you can categorize these pictures as fictitious, they're easier to look at.
Nobody comes in here knowing what they see, there are no warnings. Nothing. Nada.
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:35:41 PM
QuoteYes, but the movies aren't real. Nor do the movies show disfigured children, and as Vul said earlier, not everyone has a thousand yard stare. It's against the rules to post shit like that, maybe you should realise that everything that happens in the movies is fictitious, and disfigured kids, severed heads and grilled bodies are not.
That is true. All I'm saying is that people come here with full knowledge they may see gore. If you can categorize these pictures as fictitious, they're easier to look at.
They should be able to come here with full knowledge that said gore isn't allowed. ;)
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:37:10 PM
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:35:41 PM
QuoteYes, but the movies aren't real. Nor do the movies show disfigured children, and as Vul said earlier, not everyone has a thousand yard stare. It's against the rules to post shit like that, maybe you should realise that everything that happens in the movies is fictitious, and disfigured kids, severed heads and grilled bodies are not.
That is true. All I'm saying is that people come here with full knowledge they may see gore. If you can categorize these pictures as fictitious, they're easier to look at.
Nobody comes in here knowing what they see, there are no warnings. Nothing. Nada.
You didn't understand.
Also, aren't you a moderator Purebreed? Couldn't you just close this now?
QuoteThey should be able to come here with full knowledge that said gore isn't allowed.
Except fictitious gore. Presented in moving photos, like these are in still photos.
Blain, READ, does anything in this site have pictures of ACTUAL DEAD CHILDREN?
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:39:01 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:37:10 PM
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:35:41 PM
QuoteYes, but the movies aren't real. Nor do the movies show disfigured children, and as Vul said earlier, not everyone has a thousand yard stare. It's against the rules to post shit like that, maybe you should realise that everything that happens in the movies is fictitious, and disfigured kids, severed heads and grilled bodies are not.
That is true. All I'm saying is that people come here with full knowledge they may see gore. If you can categorize these pictures as fictitious, they're easier to look at.
Nobody comes in here knowing what they see, there are no warnings. Nothing. Nada.
You didn't understand.
Also, aren't you a moderator Purebreed? Couldn't you just close this now?
QuoteThey should be able to come here with full knowledge that said gore isn't allowed.
Except fictitious gore. Presented in moving photos, like these are in still photos.
I am a moderator, but not a moderator of this section.
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:33:14 PM
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:29:32 PM
No, but you asked him if he saw the problem. And the only time a problem would arise is if he was breaking the rules. He's not, ergo there's no problem.
No, the problem is that his point is to motivate people to speak up against the government, and like I said, this simply isn't the greatest site to do that. Can he, absolutley, does it mean he will achieve his goal? Nope.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 08:30:06 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:19:20 PM
The majority of people don't want to read it. And I never said HE COULDN'T, I typed that out.
I said, don't you see the problem of posting it here, where people won't care as much then on a political forum. He refused to anwser the question and ended up making himself look like a bafoon.
Did you not see this? I answered your question.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 07:05:01 PMThis is what happenned man. In the other political thread, I made the statement that it doesnt matter who's President, the policies will remain largely the same and I was called a nutjob. My analysis was challanged so I am now backing it up. Was it the right choice? Probobly not. But I always finish what I start no matter what it is. You understand?
The only thing I see here is you making yourself look like more of an idiot then you did before.
You're not being genuine. You just dont like the message.
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:39:33 PM
Blain, READ, does anything in this site have pictures of ACTUAL DEAD CHILDREN?
Jesus you're hard to talk to.
They come to the site, having watched the R-RATED Alien and Predator movies, knowing they may see gore, as THE MOVIES HAVE GORE.
Quote
I am a moderator, but not a moderator of this section
Ah. I may just ask to have this closed, as it's leading to ridiculous posts and unnecessary conflict.
This is very sad. We might as well be in North Korea.
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:42:24 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:39:33 PM
Blain, READ, does anything in this site have pictures of ACTUAL DEAD CHILDREN?
Jesus you're hard to talk to.
They come to the site, having watched the R-RATED Alien and Predator movies, knowing they may see gore, as THE MOVIES HAVE GORE.
Yeah, but the gore is inflicted by fictitious alien creatures and likely to be nowhere near as horrible as an actual dead person.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 08:46:25 PM
This is very sad.
Haha, I'd suggest just refrain from posting, or mention posting, corpses and it should subside soon and you can continue.
QuoteYeah, but the gore is inflicted by fictitious alien creatures and likely to be nowhere near as horrible as an actual dead person
I know, I was just explaining my post to Mike.
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:51:44 PM
QuoteYeah, but the gore is inflicted by fictitious alien creatures and likely to be nowhere near as horrible as an actual dead person
I know, I was just explaining my post to Mike.
I already got your post, and I am sorry, if I came off like a jackass. :-\
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:52:55 PM
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:51:44 PM
QuoteYeah, but the gore is inflicted by fictitious alien creatures and likely to be nowhere near as horrible as an actual dead person
I know, I was just explaining my post to Mike.
I already got your post, and I am sorry, if I came off like a jackass. :-\
It's starting to look like you joined this site just harrass me.
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 08:55:14 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:52:55 PM
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:51:44 PM
QuoteYeah, but the gore is inflicted by fictitious alien creatures and likely to be nowhere near as horrible as an actual dead person
I know, I was just explaining my post to Mike.
I already got your post, and I am sorry, if I came off like a jackass. :-\
It starting to look like you joined this site just harrass me.
You are absolutley right, I did it just to give you attention, because you aren't at all a disturbed individual who looks up pictures of dead children.
QuoteYou are absolutley right, I did it just to give you attention, because you aren't at all a disturbed individual who looks up pictures of dead children.
Okay, come on, that's unfair. He's doing it to try and prove something, not because he likes dead children.
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:57:03 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 25, 2011, 08:55:14 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:52:55 PM
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 08:51:44 PM
QuoteYeah, but the gore is inflicted by fictitious alien creatures and likely to be nowhere near as horrible as an actual dead person
I know, I was just explaining my post to Mike.
I already got your post, and I am sorry, if I came off like a jackass. :-\
It starting to look like you joined this site just harrass me.
You are absolutley right, I did it just to give you attention, because you aren't at all a disturbed individual who looks up pictures of dead children.
I have been harrassed by government institutions that organize coups in third world countries, like the International Republican Institute before. I can pull up the posts from another forum. Prove youre an Alien and Predator fan.
I'm not, you caught me, I'm part of Homeland Security.
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 09:01:37 PM
I'm not, you caught me, I'm part of Homeland Security.
Can you imagine Michael Scott in homeland security? Shit would get DONE.
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:52:55 PM
I already got your post, and I am sorry, if I came off like a jackass. :-\
Doing a fine job of that.
Quote from: BLAIN on Apr 25, 2011, 09:02:57 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 09:01:37 PM
I'm not, you caught me, I'm part of Homeland Security.
Can you imagine Michael Scott in homeland security? Shit would get DONE.
My real name is Micheal Scarn ;)
Quote from: Effectz on Apr 25, 2011, 09:03:09 PM
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 25, 2011, 08:52:55 PM
I already got your post, and I am sorry, if I came off like a jackass. :-\
Doing a fine job of that.
Thats why I deleted the post and apologized
The Birth of the Empire
US Imperial Planning to "Control" the "Grand Area"
The Council on Foreign Relations and the US State Department: Studies of American Interests in the War and Peace (1939-1945) (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbs=bks%3A1&q=Council+on+Foreign+Relations+Studies+of+American+interests+in+the+war+and+peace+&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=)
The empire was actually formed by Roosevelt Liberals, not neocons. These internal records are very interesting. They are rarely investigated by most academic scholars. They're public, but they might as well be censored. They're never discussed and theres rarely anything written about them in the mainstreem. And the reasons are obvious when you look at the content. They reveal very rational imperial planning and no sentimentality.
They were first reviewed by academic scholars Laurence H. Shoup and William Minter in their
classic book, 'Imperial Brain Trust: The Council on Foreign Relations and United States Foreign Policy'.
Imperial Brain Trust: The Council on Foreign Relations and United States Foreign Policy - By Laurence H. Shoup, William Minter (http://books.google.com/books?id=HYJ7JzK-cS0C&pg=PA125&dq=beginnings+of+grand-scale+planning:+Summer+and+Fall+1940+the+council+foreign+relations&hl=en&ei=GOgjTKL4IMGblgf6sKQr&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false)
During World War II, American planners were well aware that the United States was going to emerge as a world-dominant power, in a position of hegemony that had few historical parallels, and they organized and met in order to deal with this situation.
From 1939 to 1945, extensive studies were conducted by the Council on Foreign Relations and the State Department. One group was called 'the War and Peace Studies Group' which met for six years and produced extensive geopolitical analysis and plans.
US planners were virtually unanimous in the view that the nation should claim a dominant position in the post Wolrd War world. The planners and analysts concluded that in the postwar world the United States would seek "to hold unquestioned power:"
QuoteThe foremost requirement of the United States in a world in which it proposes to hold unquestioned power is the rapid fulfillment of a program of complete re-armament.
The planners and analysts declared that:
QuoteIt must accept world responsibility. The measure of our victory will be the measure of our domination after victory.
Council President Norman Davis, asserted in May 1942 that it was probable:
Quotethe British Empire as it existed in the past will never reappear and that the United States may have to take it's place.
General George V. Strong expressed the opinion that:
Quotethe United States must cultivate a mental view toward world settlement after this war which will enable us to impose our own terms, amounting perhaps to Pax-Americana.
Davis agreed with Strong, adding that:
Quotethe United States could no longer be indifferent as to what happens in any part of the world.
Memorandum E-B19 (http://books.google.com/books?id=N0EwAAAAYAAJ&q=Essentials+of+a+Positive+Policy+for+the+United+States+In+this+section+are+summarized+the+component+parts+of+an+integrated+policy+to+achieve+military+and+economic+supremacy+for+the+United+States+within+the+non-German+world.&dq=Essentials+of+a+Positive+Policy+for+the+United+States+In+this+section+are+summarized+the+component+parts+of+an+integrated+policy+to+achieve+military+and+economic+supremacy+for+the+United+States+within+the+non-German+world.&hl=en&ei=Lzm2TaekOMm_gQet9exQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg) concluded with a statement on the essentials of United States foreign policy, summarizing:
Quotethe component parts of an integrated policy to achieve military and economic supremacy for the United States within the non German world. (emphasis added)
The conception that they developed is what they called "Grand Area" planning. The Grand Area was a region that was to be subordinated to the needs of the American economy.
As one planner put it, it was to be the region that is:
Quotestrategically necessary for world control.
The purpose of the Council's recomendation was:
Quoteto set forth the political, military, territorial, and economic requirements of the United States in it's potential leadership of the non-German world area including the United Kingdom itself as well as the Western Hemisphere and the Far East.
The Council planners (http://books.google.com/books?ei=Kzi2TdTiDYHEgAfE3pFk&ct=result&id=N0EwAAAAYAAJ&dq=In+other+words%2C+some+form+of+integration+of+the+Vie+stern+Hemisphere+and+the+Pacific+Area+serves+very+well+indeed+the+needs+of+the+United+States+but+it+does+not+serve+the+needs+of+other+economies&q=In+other+words%2C+some+form+of+integration+of+the+Vie+stern+Hemisphere+and+the+Pacific+Area+serves+very+well+indeed+the+needs+of+the+United+States+but+it+does+not+serve+the+needs+of+other+economies.#search_anchor) concluded that, as a minimum:
QuoteAmerican national interests involves free access to markets and raw materials in the British Empire, the Far East, and the entire Western Hemisphere.
Some form of integration of the Western Hemisphere and the Pacific Area serves very well indeed the needs of the United States, but it does not serve the needs of other economies.
A major element was:
Quotethe coordination and the cooperation of the United States with other countries to secure the limitation of any exercise of sovereignty by foreign nations that constitutes a threat to the minimum world area essential for the security and economic prosperity of the United States and the Western Hemisphere.
Of course, when we talk about "economic prosperity", we don't necessarily mean the people of the United States; we mean whoever dominates and controls, owns and manages the American economy.
The Council's preferred ideal was as even more grandiose-one world economy dominated by the United States. The planners stated that:
Quotethe Grand Area is not regarded by the group as more desirable than a world economy, nor as an entirely satisfactory substitute.
The Grand Area was considered a core region, which could always be extended to include more countries. As one of the planners said in May 1941:
QuoteIt would be the aim of American policy to spread the organization of the Grand Area.
Leo Pasvolvsky, the Department of State's chief post war planner, believed the United States would have to have more than just the Western Hemisphere as a living space and this is indicated in the statement that:
Quoteif you take the Western Hemisphere as the complete bloc you are assuming prepartion for war.
He felt the United States would have to go to war to gain more living space if limited to the Western Hemisphere, a conclusion clearly following the Council's work.
The Grand Area was also to include Southeast Asia, Western and Southern Europe and the oil-producing regions of the Middle East; in fact, it was to include everything, if that were possible. Detailed plans were laid for particular regions of the Grand Area and also for international institutions that were to organize and police it, essentially in the interests of this subordination to U.S. domestic needs.
The main interests (http://books.google.com/books?id=bUEwAAAAYAAJ&q=The+Philippine+Islands,+the+Dutch+East+Indies,+and+British+Malaya+are+prime+sources+of+raw+materials+very+important+to+the+United+States+in+peace+and+war&dq=The+Philippine+Islands,+the+Dutch+East+Indies,+and+British+Malaya+are+prime+sources+of+raw+materials+very+important+to+the+United+States+in+peace+and+war&hl=en&ei=vUW2TbS6FIPe0QGGvY3cDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBA) of the United States in Southeast Asia were economic:
QuoteThe Philippinne Islands, the Dutch East Indies, and British Malaysa are prime sources of raw materials very important to the United States in peace and war.
The planners warned that:
Quotethe interests of America would be gravely prejuduced should Southeast Asia be controlled by an unfriendly or monopolistic nation, because of the need for access to rubber, tin and other resources and because of the strategic importance of converging sea and air routes.
The group (http://books.google.com/books?id=bUEwAAAAYAAJ&q=Southeastern+Asia%E2%80%94+is+highly+complementary+to+the+United+States+for+we+secure+from+it+huge+amounts+of+raw+materials&dq=Southeastern+Asia%E2%80%94+is+highly+complementary+to+the+United+States+for+we+secure+from+it+huge+amounts+of+raw+materials&hl=en&ei=NEi2TdmqDITc0QHMzqDnDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAQ) explained that the area was:
QuoteSoutheastern Asia— is highly complementary to the United States for we secure from it huge amounts of raw materials .
The Grand Area concept and the means in which the planners proposed to integrate this territory became the initial bases for United States war aims. Two problems faced the planners in regard to these goals. First, the American people had to be inspired to enter the war and win it. This is involved issuing plausable propaganda.
The group pointed out in July 1941 that:
Quoteformulation of a statement of war aims for propaganda purposes is very different from formulation of one defining the true national interests.
In April 1941 the planners suggested that a statement of American war aims should now be prepared, coldly warning:
QuoteIf war aims are stated which seem to be concerned solely with Anglo-American imperialism, they will offer little to the people of the rest of the world, and will be vulnerable to Nazi counter-promises. Such aims would also strengthen the most reactionary elements in the United States and the British Empire. The interests of the other peoples should be stressed, not only those of Europe, but also of Asia, Africa, and Latin America. This would have a better propaganda effect.
The Council had proposed that economic means would play a key role in integrating the Grand Area. The CFR's War and Peace Studies Group decided that international economic and financial institutions (IMF and World Bank) were needed to assure the proper functioning of the proposed world economy.
Recomendation B-23 (July 1941) stated that worldwide financial institutions were necessary for the purpose of:
Quotestabilizing currencies and facilitating programs of capital investement for constructive undertakings in backward and underdeveloped regions.
During the last half of 1941 and in the first months of 1942, the Council developed this idea for the integration of the world.
Well, thats rational imperial planning. Of course, theres a commitment by most scholars and the media to make sure this picture isnt presented. It cannot be percieved. What is presented is a picture of people who's motives are benign, but sometimes dont understand which is why they make mistakes.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lgqfnmKwEQ1qcb39y.png&hash=b537553e9950e4e7ea69d7007d3d000a97bc4a0f)
Horhey stop preaching to deaf ears. Use the ignore button and post what you like. This is a thread for you to post your information, not waste time debating the same shit over and over.
Prison_Mike, you claim Horhey is on a mission, when it appears that its
you that's on the mission to shut him down. All you are doing is repeating what
Maledoro said in a less intelligent way. Your opinions are valid, but acting like an asshole de validates them. I still find it funny that people have taken time to read the title, browse through the information then say that 'nobody is interested'. If you weren't interested or intrigued by this information you would have
never opened up this thread to begin with. Nobody is forcing anyone here to read any of it and posting on here contradicts what you are saying.
And
Horhey have you considered using
Spoiler
these spoiler tags to hide offensive pictures?
This will prevent casual viewers from seeing what they dont want to. If they click it, that's their own bad luck.
Im sorry, I just find this stuff fascinating sometimes in part, because it's not spoon fead to us every day with our daily diet of propaganda. Like this for example. I just came accross this bombshell document revealing the reasons why Israel remains a loyal US-client state. My computer is starting to slow down and Im going to have to restart it, so Im just going to post this one sentence from it so I can use it in a search to find the document again, but I'll be back to post the rest of it.
Quoteif we choose to combat radical Arab nationalism and to hold Persian Gulf oil by force if necessary, a logical corollary would be to support Israel as the only strong pro-West power left in the Near East.
I had some of the information before, but not the entire thing.
This thread is going to be locked for the next little while until everyone simmers down. While we encourage debate here at AvP Galaxy, we don't like bad blood and from the sounds of it, that's exactly what's been brewing over the last few pages.
US Imperial Planning for the Middle East
Independant nationalism has always been the real of enemy of Washington, especially if it threatens to become a "contagious example" to borrow Henry Kissinger's term when he was preparing the overthrow of the social democratic government of Chile ("the other 9/11" in 1973).
"Successful defiance" (successful independant development) of the Master could be a "virus" that will "spread contagion," (Kissinger) to countries of real concern to the rulers of much of the world because the indigenous populations "are convinced that the first beneficiaries of the development of a country's resources should be the people of that country", the State Department warned. They were refering to Latin America but these concerns also apply to the Middle East and Asia.
It's the poorest countries that concern Washington the most. The weaker the country the greater the "threat of a good example". If a tiny country with minimal resources can succeed in bringing about a better life for its people, some other place with a lot of resources will ask, "why not us?" Then "the infection would sweep through the continent" (George Kennan) and the whole system of domination would begin to unravel.
That's why even the tiniest speck poses such a threat, and may have to be crushed.
Well, Israel and Saudi Arabia are what Washington refers to as it's "Cops on the Beat" countering "Arab nationalism" in the Middle East.
The reference to using Israel as a counterweight to "radical Arab nationalism" is in a declassified policy paper prepared by the National Security Council Planning Board commenting on the Memorandum. See "Issues Arising Out of the Situation in the Near East," (http://books.google.com/books?id=E90tAAAAYAAJ&q=Moreover,+if+we+choose+to+combat+radical+Arab+nationalism+and+to+hold+Persian+Gulf+oil+by+force+if+necessary,+a+logical+corollary+would+be+to+support+Israel+as+the+only+strong+pro-West+power+left+in+the+Near+East.&dq=Moreover,+if+we+choose+to+combat+radical+Arab+nationalism+and+to+hold+Persian+Gulf+oil+by+force+if+necessary,+a+logical+corollary+would+be+to+support+Israel+as+the+only+strong+pro-West+power+left+in+the+Near+East.&hl=en&ei=Ll-2Tf6qDsLFgAeTz-1c&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA) July 29, 1958, Foreign Relations of the United States, 1958-1960, Vol. XII ("Near East Region; Iraq; Iran; Arabian Peninsula"), Washington: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1993, pp. 114-124 at p. 119 (the exact words are:
Quoteif we choose to combat radical Arab nationalism and to hold Persian Gulf oil by force if necessary, a logical corollary would be to support Israel as the only strong pro-West power left in the Near East.
The Memorandum identifying "Arab nationalism" as "inimical to Western interests" is N.S.C. [National Security Council Memorandum] 5801/1 "Statement By The National Security Council Of Long-Range U.S. Policy Toward The Near East," (http://nasser.bibalex.org/Data/USDocWeb/PDF/Near-East-Region-58-60-XII/TXT/Near-East-Region-58-60-XII%20-%200049.pdf), January 24, 1958, Foreign Relations of the United States, 1958-1960, Vol. XII ("Near East Region; Iraq; Iran; Arabian Peninsula" (http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/FRUS/FRUS-idx?type=turn&entity=FRUS.FRUS195860v12.p0054&id=FRUS.FRUS195860v12&isize=text)), Washington: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1993, pp. 17-32. An excerpt (pp. 18, 20-22, 31 (http://books.google.com/books?id=E90tAAAAYAAJ&q=be+prepared,+when+required,+to+come+forward,+as+was+done+in+Iran,+with+formulas+designed+to+reconcile+vital+Free+World+interests+in+the+area%27s+petroleum+resources+with+the+rising+tide+of+nationalism+in+the+area.&dq=be+prepared,+when+required,+to+come+forward,+as+was+done+in+Iran,+with+formulas+designed+to+reconcile+vital+Free+World+interests+in+the+area%27s+petroleum+resources+with+the+rising+tide+of+nationalism+in+the+area.&hl=en&ei=adO3Ta2QEOTx0gGPoYHgDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA)):
QuoteThe Near East is of great strategic, political, and economic importance to the Free World. The area contains the greatest petroleum resources in the world and essential facilities for the transit of military forces and Free World commerce. The strategic resources are of such importance to the Free World, particularly Western Europe, that it is in the security interest of the United States to make every effort to insure that these resources will be available and will be used for strengthening the Free World.
Current conditions of and political trends in the Near East are inimical to Western interests. In the eyes of the majority of Arabs the United States appears to be opposed to the realization of the goals of Arab nationalism. They believe that the United States is seeking to protect its interest in Near East oil by supporting the status quo and opposing political or economic progress.
[T]he mystique of Arab unity has become a basic element of Arab political thought. Our economic and cultural interests in the area have led not unnaturally to close U.S. relations with elements in the Arab world whose primary interest lies in the maintenance of relations with the West and the status quo in their countries.
These relations have contributed to a widespread belief in the area that the United States desires to keep the Arab world disunited and is committed to work with "reactionary" elements to that end. The U.S.S.R., on the other hand, is not inhibited in proclaiming all-out support for Arab unity and for the most extreme Arab nationalist aspirations, because it has no stake in the economic or political status quo in the area.
The area's indigenous institutions and religions lack vigor (partly as a result of the impact of nearly 200 years of Western culture), and native resistance to Communism per se has, therefore, been disappointing. Furthermore, Communist police-state methods seem no worse than similar methods employed by Near East regimes, including some of those supported by the United States.
Where the United States and its friends seek a level of stability in the area to permit peaceful economic and social progress, nationalist Arabs and the Soviets need continuing chaos in order to pursue their separate aims. Many Arabs remain unconvinced of their stake in the future of the Free World.
They believe that our concern over Near East petroleum as essential to the Western alliance, our desires to create indigenous strength to resist Communist subversion or domination, our efforts to maintain existing military transit and base rights and deny them to the U.S.S.R., are a mere cover for a desire to divide and dominate the area. Of the countries covered by this paper only Israel would be capable of effective delaying action against a military power.
[The United States should] be prepared, when required, to come forward, as was done in Iran [i.e. in a C.I.A. coup in 1953], with formulas designed to reconcile vital Free World interests in the area's petroleum resources with the rising tide of nationalism in the area.
There is also, "Petroleum Policy of the United States," (http://books.google.com/books?id=w9TsVxeUkQMC&pg=PA698&lpg=PA698&dq=Furthermore,+and+of+greater+importance,+United+States+policy+should,+in+general,+aim+to+assure+to+this+country,+in+the+interest+of+security,+a+substantial+and+geographically+diversified+holding+of+foreign+petroleum+resources+in+the+hands+of+United+States+nationals.+This+would+involve+the+preservation+of+the+absolute+position+presently+obtaining,+and+therefore+vigilant+protection+of+existing+concessions+in+United+States+hands+coupled+with+insistence+upon+the+Open+Door+principle+of+equal+opportunity+for+United+States+companies+in+new+areas.&source=bl&ots=rAq1zgoqTe&sig=7gbiGfW54f3n2T1hz_-f8MmDwCk&hl=en&ei=R3i2Ta-UC8-3twfVj72NAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Furthermore%2C%20and%20of%20greater%20importance%2C%20United%20States%20policy%20should%2C%20in%20general%2C%20aim%20to%20assure%20to%20this%20country%2C%20in%20the%20interest%20of%20security%2C%20a%20substantial%20and%20geographically%20diversified%20holding%20of%20foreign%20petroleum%20resources%20in%20the%20hands%20of%20United%20States%20nationals.%20This%20would%20involve%20the%20preservation%20of%20the%20absolute%20position%20presently%20obtaining%2C%20and%20therefore%20vigilant%20protection%20of%20existing%20concessions%20in%20United%20States%20hands%20coupled%20with%20insistence%20upon%20the%20Open%20Door%20principle%20of%20equal%20opportunity%20for%20United%20States%20companies%20in%20new%20areas.&f=false) Memorandum of U.S. Department of State, April 11, 1944, Foreign Relations of the United States, 1944, Vol. V ("The Near East, South Asia, Africa, The Far East"), Washington: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1965, pp. 27-33. An excerpt (p. 30):
QuoteFurthermore, and of greater importance, United States policy should, in general, aim to assure to this country, in the interest of security, a substantial and geographically diversified holding of foreign petroleum resources in the hands of United States nationals.
This would involve the preservation of the absolute position presently obtaining, and therefore vigilant protection of existing concessions in United States hands coupled with insistence upon the Open Door principle of equal opportunity for United States companies in new areas.
In brief: what we have, we keep, closing the door to others; what we do not yet have, we take, under the principle of the "Open Door".
TO BE CONTINUED
The "Cops on the Beat" countering 'radical Arab nationalism which poses a grave threat to our principal sources of petroleum in the Middle East'The Joint Chiefs of Staff (http://books.google.com/books?id=GpptAAAAMAAJ&q=It+was+hoped+that+the+United+States,+as+a+result+of+its+support+of+Israel,+might+gain+strategic+advantage+in+the+Middle+East+that+would+offset+the+effects+of+the+decline+of+British+power+in+that+area.&dq=It+was+hoped+that+the+United+States,+as+a+result+of+its+support+of+Israel,+might+gain+strategic+advantage+in+the+Middle+East+that+would+offset+the+effects+of+the+decline+of+British+power+in+that+area.&hl=en&ei=y6FqTNyBEsG88gbg0oW3AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA) described the new state of Israel as the major regional military power after Turkey, and it was hoped that:
Quotethe United States, as a result of its support of Israel, might gain strategic advantage in the Middle East that would offset the effects of the decline of British power in that area.
Defense Secretary Melvin Laird (http://books.google.com/books?id=42OPAAAAMAAJ&q=As+Defense+Secretary+Melvin+R.+Laird+put+it,+%22America+will+no+longer+try+to+play+policeman+to+the+world.+Instead,+we+will+expect+other+nations+to+provide+more+cops+on+the+beat+in+their+own+neighborhood%22.&dq=As+Defense+Secretary+Melvin+R.+Laird+put+it,+%22America+will+no+longer+try+to+play+policeman+to+the+world.+Instead,+we+will+expect+other+nations+to+provide+more+cops+on+the+beat+in+their+own+neighborhood%22.&hl=en&ei=twG3Ta6_Iarg0gGo5NXQDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA) explained that:
QuoteAmerica will no longer play policeman to the world. Instead we will expect other nations to provide more cops on the beat in their own neighborhood.
-Though Police Headquarters remained in Washington.
In the Middle East, Israel and Iran (under the Shah) among others, were the "cops on the beat", protecting Saudi Arabia and it's oil rich neighbors from "radical Arab nationalism" - the indigenous populations who may be affected by strange and unnacceptable ideas about control over our resources in their own lands.
As U.S. Senator Henry Jackson (http://books.google.com/books?id=_U-1AAAAIAAJ&q=the+strength+and+Western+orientation+of+Israel+on+the+Mediterranean+and+Iran+on+the+Persian+Gulf.+These+two+countries,+reliable+friends+of+the+United+States,+together+with+Saudi+Arabia,+have+served+to+inhibit+and+contain+those+irresponsible+and+radical+elements+in+certain+Arab+states%E2%80%94+such+as+Syria,+Libya,+Lebanon+and+Iraq%E2%80%94who,+were+they+free+to+do+so,+would+pose+a+grave+threat+indeed+to+our+principal+sources+of+petroleum+in+the+Persian+Gulf.&dq=the+strength+and+Western+orientation+of+Israel+on+the+Mediterranean+and+Iran+on+the+Persian+Gulf.+These+two+countries,+reliable+friends+of+the+United+States,+together+with+Saudi+Arabia,+have+served+to+inhibit+and+contain+those+irresponsible+and+radical+elements+in+certain+Arab+states%E2%80%94+such+as+Syria,+Libya,+Lebanon+and+Iraq%E2%80%94who,+were+they+free+to+do+so,+would+pose+a+grave+threat+indeed+to+our+principal+sources+of+petroleum+in+the+Persian+Gulf.&hl=en&ei=MAK3TZHjKqjX0QGZsc39Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg) explained in 1973:
Quotethe strength and Western orientation of Israel on the Mediterranean and Iran on the Persian Gulf. These two countries, reliable friends of the United States, together with Saudi Arabia, have served to inhibit and contain those irresponsible and radical elements in certain Arab states— such as Syria, Libya, Lebanon and Iraq—who, were they free to do so, would pose a grave threat indeed to our principal sources of petroleum in the Persian Gulf.
As for "radical Arab nationalism" among Palestinians which "poses a grave threat indeed to our principal sources of petroleum in the Persian Gulf", US planners had no reason to doubt the assessment of Israeli government specialists (http://books.google.com/books?id=GpptAAAAMAAJ&q='Those+with+the+highest+capacity+for+survival+and+adjustment+will+manage+by+a+process+of+natural+selection+while+the+rest+would+be+crushed.+Some+of+them+would+die+and+most+of+them+would+turn+into+human+dust+and+the+waste+of+society,+and+join+the+most+impoverished+classes+in+Arab+countries.'&dq='Those+with+the+highest+capacity+for+survival+and+adjustment+will+manage+by+a+process+of+natural+selection+while+the+rest+would+be+crushed.+Some+of+them+would+die+and+most+of+them+would+turn+into+human+dust+and+the+waste+of+society,+and+join+the+most+impoverished+classes+in+Arab+countries.'&hl=en&ei=q1BtTPeIF4L-8AaO5L2ADA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ) in 1948 that:
QuoteThose with the highest capacity for survival and adjustment will manage by a process of natural selection while the rest would be crushed. Some of them would die and most of them would turn into human dust and the waste of society, and join the most impoverished classes in Arab countries.
TO BE CONTINUED
I don't know about Saudi, but Israel most certainly. It's the reason why the surrounding nations don't have nuclear weapons.
Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 28, 2011, 04:47:35 AM
I don't know about Saudi, but Israel most certainly. It's the reason why the surrounding nations don't have nuclear weapons.
Yes, Saudi Arabia. It's in the document. Israel's US supplied nuclear arsenal actually provokes countries to want atomic weapons as a deterent. That's one the reasons why the International Atomic Energy Agency has asked the United Nations to disarm them, but the United States vetos those resolutions, among any others that try to hold them accountable.
The monarchy in Saudi Arabia is a US puppet regime and has been since FDR. Washington controls Saudi oil. If you read the document it will tell you the nature of the "special relationship". Im not finished yet though.
Control of oil isn't a new phenomenon dude. Oil has pretty much always been controlled by cartels. It's part of the reason why gas prices are so astronomical.
Yeah. Has there been anything really revelatory in this thread yet?
Simply put: no.
Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 28, 2011, 05:42:11 AM
Simply put: no.
Ok so you were already aware of everything in this thread. The coups, the genocide, the death squads, the internal records, the dictators, so on and so forth? This is all common knowledge? You mean most Americans dont believe that the United States is on a crusade for democracy and human rights?
Neither Doom nor I are "most Americans'.
Or indeed Americans at all.
I thought it was common knowledge that the US government has been sticking their noses into the politics of other countries when it suited them for yonks.
This wouldn't be the first topic that been posted on this board that wasn't revelatory im sure.
I suppose we all can't be know all's.
Quote from: SM on Apr 28, 2011, 06:38:38 AM
Neither Doom nor I are "most Americans'.
Or indeed Americans at all.
I thought it was common knowledge that the US government has been sticking their noses into the politics of other countries when it suited them for yonks.
Im just going by polling data on public opinion.
Most American's are not blind followers of their government. In fact, other countries may not know this, but American's hardly have a national identity. I mean, for we don't identify as Americans, we identify where our ancestors came from.
i.e. An American who's grandparents came from Ireland and Italy would call themselves "Half Irish, Half Italian" as oppose to an American
Quote from: The PredBen on Apr 28, 2011, 12:45:05 PM
Most American's are not blind followers of their government. In fact, other countries may not know this, but American's hardly have a national identity. I mean, for we don't identify as Americans, we identify where our ancestors came from.
i.e. An American who's grandparents came from Ireland and Italy would call themselves "Half Irish, Half Italian" as oppose to an American
Typically, the less educated people are the less indoctrinated they are. People that have been through the doctrinal system, like ariculate opinion in the media, tend to be more obediant and disciplined. Take the Vietnam War for example. In elite opinion in the media, the most extreme condemnation of the war was that it was a strategic mistake which proved to be too costly. Thats as far as you can go. Among the public, about 70% said it's not a mistake, it's "fundamentally wrong and immoral".
Just as the Iraq war, the debate is strictly limited to a narrow spectrum of acceptable discussion in the mainstreem: "Are we winning"? "Is it costing too much?"
The hawks said, "If we stay the course we can win." The doves said, "Even if we keep at it we probably cant win, and besides, it would probably be too costly for us". Both sides agreed that we have a right to carry out "aggression" against South Vietnam and Iraq because 'we own the world', so it is not aggression by defintion. By defintion we are not "foreign fighters".
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 28, 2011, 04:32:22 PM
Quote from: The PredBen on Apr 28, 2011, 12:45:05 PM
Most American's are not blind followers of their government. In fact, other countries may not know this, but American's hardly have a national identity. I mean, for we don't identify as Americans, we identify where our ancestors came from.
i.e. An American who's grandparents came from Ireland and Italy would call themselves "Half Irish, Half Italian" as oppose to an American
Typically, the less educated people are the less indoctrinated they are. People that have been through the doctrinal system, like ariculate opinion in the media, tend to be more obediant and disciplined. Take the Vietnam War for example. In elite opinion in the media, the most extreme condemnation of the war was that it was a strategic mistake which proved to be too costly. Thats as far as you can go. Among the public, about 70% said it's not a mistake, it's "fundamentally wrong and immoral".
Just as the Iraq war, the debate is strictly limited to a narrow spectrum of acceptable discussion in the mainstreem: "Are we winning"? "Is it costing too much?"
The hawks said, "If we stay the course we can win." The doves said, "Even if we keep at it we probably cant win, and besides, it would probably be too costly for us". Both sides agreed that we have a right to carry out "aggression" against South Vietnam and Iraq because 'we own the world', so it is not aggression by defintion. By defintion we are not "foreign fighters".
Umm..dude, why not start a protest or something if you feel passion for the subject. I disagree with you in simply, like already stated, most of this stuff isn't new, I have known that we have been doing silly shit since Reagen, well when I was alive to hear about it. We simply are not in 1984 level corruption though, the only way you could get arrested is by doing some bad shit. They won't arrest you if you go agains't the state, yet, but corporations...that is another story, THEY are more evil then government, look at Health Insurance, that is something you should look at, because that shit is on our own soil.
Quote from: Prison_Mike on Apr 28, 2011, 05:17:24 PM
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 28, 2011, 04:32:22 PM
Quote from: The PredBen on Apr 28, 2011, 12:45:05 PM
Most American's are not blind followers of their government. In fact, other countries may not know this, but American's hardly have a national identity. I mean, for we don't identify as Americans, we identify where our ancestors came from.
i.e. An American who's grandparents came from Ireland and Italy would call themselves "Half Irish, Half Italian" as oppose to an American
Typically, the less educated people are the less indoctrinated they are. People that have been through the doctrinal system, like ariculate opinion in the media, tend to be more obediant and disciplined. Take the Vietnam War for example. In elite opinion in the media, the most extreme condemnation of the war was that it was a strategic mistake which proved to be too costly. Thats as far as you can go. Among the public, about 70% said it's not a mistake, it's "fundamentally wrong and immoral".
Just as the Iraq war, the debate is strictly limited to a narrow spectrum of acceptable discussion in the mainstreem: "Are we winning"? "Is it costing too much?"
The hawks said, "If we stay the course we can win." The doves said, "Even if we keep at it we probably cant win, and besides, it would probably be too costly for us". Both sides agreed that we have a right to carry out "aggression" against South Vietnam and Iraq because 'we own the world', so it is not aggression by defintion. By defintion we are not "foreign fighters".
Umm..dude, why not start a protest or something if you feel passion for the subject. I disagree with you in simply, like already stated, most of this stuff isn't new, I have known that we have been doing silly shit since Reagen, well when I was alive to hear about it. We simply are not in 1984 level corruption though, the only way you could get arrested is by doing some bad shit. They won't arrest you if you go agains't the state, yet, but corporations...that is another story, THEY are more evil then government, look at Health Insurance, that is something you should look at, because that shit is on our own soil.
I appreciate the intelligent response. You're off my 'shit list'. Most of this thread highlights the role of the multinational corporations and financial institutions, which is the interests that Washington serves. It was said best on Page 1.
In the words of Diplomatic and CIA Chief Historian, Gerald K. Haines: (http://books.google.com/books?ei=9kwqTKyXL8H_lgem1ImqBA&ct=result&id=G9wZAAAAMAAJ&dq=Throughout+Latin+America+US+policymakers+worked+to+expand+U.S.+influence.+Both+the+Harry+S.+Truman+and+the+Dwight+D.+Eisenhower+administrations+sought+a+favorable+climate+for+US+business+and+private+investment%2C+encouraged+US+access+to+raw+materials+%28especially+oil+and+other+strategic+minerals%29%2C+resisted+%22excessive+industrial+development%2C%22+and+they+condemned+government+intervention+and+interference+in+the+economy.+According+to+these+officials+economic+nationalism+injured+U.S.+business.+They+perceived+American+security+and+continuing+prosperity+as+being+dependant+upon+the+maintenance+of+a+strong+international+economy+with+free+access+to+markets+and+raw+materials.&q=Following+World+War+II+the+United+States+assumed%2C+out+of+self-interest%2C+responsibility+for+the+welfare+of+the+world+capitalist+system.+American+leaders+tried+to+reshape+the+world+to+fit+U.S.+needs+and+standards.+Throughout+Latin+America+US+policymakers+worked+to+expand+U.S.+influence.+Both+the+Harry+S.+Truman+and+the+Dwight+D.+Eisenhower+administrations+sought+a+favorable+climate+for+US+business+and+private+investment%2C+encouraged+US+access+to+raw+materials+%28especially+oil+and+other+strategic+minerals%29%2C+resisted+%22excessive+industrial+development%2C%22+and+they+condemned+government+intervention+and+interference+in+the+economy.+According+to+these+officials+economic+nationalism+injured+U.S.+business.+They+perceived+American+security+and+continuing+prosperity+as+being+dependant+upon+the+maintenance+of+a+strong+international+economy+with+free+access+to+markets+and+raw+materials.)
QuoteFollowing World War II the United States assumed, out of self-interest, responsibility for the welfare of the world capitalist system. American leaders tried to reshape the world to fit U.S. needs and standards.
Throughout Latin America US policymakers worked to expand U.S. influence. [Washington] sought a favorable climate for US business and private investment, encouraged US access to raw materials (especially oil and other strategic minerals), resisted "excessive industrial development," and they condemned government intervention and interference in the economy.
According to these officials economic nationalism injured U.S. business. They perceived American security and continuing prosperity as being dependant upon the maintenance of a strong international economy with free access to markets and raw materials.
Quote from: SM on Apr 28, 2011, 06:38:38 AM
Neither Doom nor I are "most Americans'.
Or indeed Americans at all.
I thought it was common knowledge that the US government has been sticking their noses into the politics of other countries when it suited them for yonks.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.funlol.com%2Fpictures%2F12696.jpg&hash=db78684a4ba462c71d538ea8dcff8ed5931e1d63)
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 28, 2011, 07:21:49 AM
Quote from: SM on Apr 28, 2011, 06:38:38 AM
Neither Doom nor I are "most Americans'.
Or indeed Americans at all.
I thought it was common knowledge that the US government has been sticking their noses into the politics of other countries when it suited them for yonks.
Im just going by polling data on public opinion.
How many Americans you think know half of their tax dollars go towards the Israeli army? Exactly.
"The Crisis of Democracy"
The Vietnam War induced a period of substantive democracy in the United States for a series of reasons. Most Americans became active participants in the democratic process rather than passive observers which was viewed as a threat by US elites. When you read or hear about the 60's in the industry media, they're typically denounced and condemned. They're hated. The civil rights movement, womans movement, the labor movement, the anti-war movement and all kinds of awful things happenned.
The threat of democracy sparked a study by the Trilateral Commission in which they describe this period as a "crisis of democracy". Carter administration officials, including the President, Vice President, Secretary of State, Defense and Treasury all participated in the study along with the executives of major corporations and financial insitiutions, partners in corporate law firms, Senators, Professors of foreign affairs and so forth.
The report, entitled, "The Crisis of Democracy" (http://www.wrijneveld.nl/Boekenplank/BoekenVanAanhangersVanDeNieuweWereldOrde/1975-TC-The-Crisis-of-Democracy.pdf) written by Samuel Huntington, argues:
QuoteTruman had been able to govern the country with the cooperation of a relatively small number of Wall Street lawyers and bankers. By the mid-1960's, the sources of power in society had diversified tremendously, and this was no longer possible.
Some of the problems of the governance in the United States today stem from an excess of democracy -- an 'excess of democracy' . Needed instead is a greater degree of moderation in democracy . The effective operation of a democratic political system usually requires some measure of apathy and noninvolvement on the part of some individuals and groups.
In short, substantive democracy is a threat to the "American power structure", so the population must be reduced to the status of passive observers so that Polyarchy is protected and maintained: a system of elite decision making and public ratification.
Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 29, 2011, 02:03:44 AM
Quote from: SM on Apr 28, 2011, 06:38:38 AM
Neither Doom nor I are "most Americans'.
Or indeed Americans at all.
I thought it was common knowledge that the US government has been sticking their noses into the politics of other countries when it suited them for yonks.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.funlol.com%2Fpictures%2F12696.jpg&hash=db78684a4ba462c71d538ea8dcff8ed5931e1d63)
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 28, 2011, 07:21:49 AM
Quote from: SM on Apr 28, 2011, 06:38:38 AM
Neither Doom nor I are "most Americans'.
Or indeed Americans at all.
I thought it was common knowledge that the US government has been sticking their noses into the politics of other countries when it suited them for yonks.
Im just going by polling data on public opinion.
How many Americans you think know half of their tax dollars go towards the Israeli army? Exactly.
Most do.
Not to derail the topic, have you ever seen this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAluyt5_kic#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAluyt5_kic#ws)
The Trap: What Happened to Our Dream of Freedom
Google video have the full series.
Adam Curtis is amazing, his use of stock footage and sound is pretty compelling.
I'd have to say his documentary The Century of the Self, Is probably my favorite documentary series.
Quote from: Pn2501 on Apr 29, 2011, 09:21:53 PM
Not to derail the topic, have you ever seen this
The Trap: What Happened to Our Dream of Freedom
Google video have the full series.
Adam Curtis is amazing, his use of stock footage and sound is pretty compelling.
I'd have to say his documentary The Century of the Self, Is probably my favorite documentary series.
The video is solid. It's actually gotten much worse under the Obama administration..
Noam Chomsky on Reagan's Distorted Legacy, Wisconsin Protests & Obama's Activist Crackdownhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFRadCGY_ao# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFRadCGY_ao#)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8g_XE4oZqU# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8g_XE4oZqU#)
The Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project was initiated by the Obama team. It was argued by Elena Kagan, Obama's court appointment and with the support of the reactionary justices they won.
Nothing like this belongs in any place that calls itself a free society. The case determined that by just speaking to an organization the government lists on the terrorist list you are to be arrested for providing what they define as "material support". This means that any American, for example, who talks to Hamas about how they should move towards nonviolent resistance, is giving material support to a group on the terrorist list and therefore will be arrested.
Furthermore, the terrorist list itself is totally illegitimate. That shouldnt exist in a free society. The terrorist list is an arbitrary list established by the President alone with no oversight. The President alone has the power to decide who's on the list.
QuoteInternationally-Renowned Humanitarian Groups Support Challenge to Unconstitutional "Material Support" Law (http://www.cartercenter.org/news/pr/aclu-112309.html?printerFriendly=true)
New York...The American Civil Liberties Union today filed a friend-of-the-court brief on behalf of the Carter Center, Human Rights Watch and several other human rights and humanitarian organizations in a case before the U.S. Supreme Court challenging the constitutionality of a law that makes it a crime to provide "material support or resources" to any organization that the Secretary of State has designated a "foreign terrorist organization" (FTO).
The organizations that joined the brief are internationally recognized for their efforts to promote peace, further human rights and alleviate human suffering around the world. According to the brief, those efforts are imperiled by the vague language of the material support law, which arguably reaches even speech and advocacy whose only purpose is to deter future terrorist activity.
"The material support law is so vague and broad that peace, human rights and aid groups are left hopelessly guessing whether their constitutionally-protected speech could land them in jail," said Melissa Goodman, staff attorney with the ACLU National Security Project. "Cutting off aid to terrorism is undoubtedly an important government interest, but criminalizing legitimate peace-building and humanitarian work – including advocacy to end terrorism and violence – does nothing to further that interest and actually makes it more difficult to achieve."
Under the law, individuals face up to 15 years in prison for providing "material support" to FTOs even if they oppose the terrorist activities of the designated group and even if their work is intended to further entirely peaceful, lawful objectives.
"Material support" is defined broadly to include, among other things, any "service," "training," "expert advice or assistance," or "personnel." The ACLU's filing asserts that "each of these terms is vague, sweeping, and potentially proscribes a wide range of speech and advocacy that is protected by the First Amendment."
The brief was joined by nine groups who emphatically oppose terrorism, but whose peace-making, conflict resolution, human rights advocacy and aid provision to needy civilians sometimes requires direct engagement with groups and individuals that resort to or support violence, including some that are, have been or might in the future be designated as FTOs.
The vague material support law potentially criminalizes the groups' efforts to convince armed actors to choose non-violent means to achieve their ends, to support peace processes or to explain to perpetrators of human rights abuses their obligations under international law and persuade them to cease their rights-violating practices. The vague material support law also has grave implications for the provision of humanitarian aid, disaster relief and development efforts in conflict zones where designated groups may operate or even control the area.
"The government should not be in the business of criminalizing speech that furthers humanitarian ends," said Steven R. Shapiro, ACLU Legal Director. "No one should face the threat of prison for exercising their First Amendment rights in order to further peace, promote human rights and provide humanitarian aid around the world."
The ACLU filed the brief on behalf of the Carter Center, Christian Peacemaker Teams, Grassroots International, Human Rights Watch, International Crisis Group, the Institute for Conflict Analysis and Resolution at George Mason University, the Kroc Institute for International Peace Studies at Notre Dame University, Operation USA and the Peace Appeal Foundation.
In addition to Shapiro and Goodman, attorneys on the brief are Jameel Jaffer and Larry Schwartztol of the ACLU National Security Project.
Quote from: The PredBen on Apr 29, 2011, 08:56:55 PM
Quote from: DoomRulz on Apr 29, 2011, 02:03:44 AM
Quote from: SM on Apr 28, 2011, 06:38:38 AM
Neither Doom nor I are "most Americans'.
Or indeed Americans at all.
I thought it was common knowledge that the US government has been sticking their noses into the politics of other countries when it suited them for yonks.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.funlol.com%2Fpictures%2F12696.jpg&hash=db78684a4ba462c71d538ea8dcff8ed5931e1d63)
Quote from: Horhey on Apr 28, 2011, 07:21:49 AM
Quote from: SM on Apr 28, 2011, 06:38:38 AM
Neither Doom nor I are "most Americans'.
Or indeed Americans at all.
I thought it was common knowledge that the US government has been sticking their noses into the politics of other countries when it suited them for yonks.
Im just going by polling data on public opinion.
How many Americans you think know half of their tax dollars go towards the Israeli army? Exactly.
Most do.
Prove that to me.
About the same amount who realize that if you remove the first "y" in "tyranny" it spells "tranny".
I don't think it's very many, truthfully.
Quote from: DoomRulz on May 02, 2011, 12:03:10 AM
I don't think it's very many, truthfully.
Me, neither.
All of the websites needed to tell us what I already know. My favorite website name: www.ifamericansknew.org (http://www.ifamericansknew.org)
With all due respect I think most Americans understand whats going on there.
EDIT - Sorry for not giving a real answer. I guess most Americans don't know the numbers we see on that website.
Quote from: The PredBen on May 02, 2011, 01:30:48 AM
With all due respect I think most Americans understand whats going on there.
"Buncha jewboys an' ragheads shootin' the shit outta each other. Tha's all..."
I can't remember which forum this took place on, but someone actually believed that the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan were between Muslims and Jews; even after I had explained the Shiites and the Sunni to them.
Quote from: maledoro on May 02, 2011, 01:42:03 AM
Quote from: The PredBen on May 02, 2011, 01:30:48 AM
With all due respect I think most Americans understand whats going on there.
"Buncha jewboys an' ragheads shootin' the shit outta each other. Tha's all..."
I can't remember which forum this took place on, but someone actually believed that the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan were between Muslims and Jews; even after I had explained the Shiites and the Sunni to them.
Oh lol I guess a lot don't know whats going on then. It's just my family and friends do know. And a lot of people in my area are up to date on knowledge. So perhaps I was judging America from my city lol.
Where do you live?
Massachusetts.
Quote from: The PredBen on May 02, 2011, 11:48:46 AM
Massachusetts.
That explains it. People there are usually more astute on these issues. The home of Noam Chomsky, who is "arguably the most important intellectual alive" (the New York Times).
A List of Governments (mostly democracies) overthrown by the United States
A List of Governments Overthrown by the US (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_drFPB4XKJE#ws)
US Document: "COUNTERING CHAVEZ AND REASSERTING U.S. LEADERSHIP IN THE REGION"
The Empire is apparently preparing to use it's traditional measures to rid itself of the 22th "cancer" in our hemisphere before the "infection" spreads to even more of it's "Third World domains".
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalresearch.ca%2FcoverStoryPictures%2F17398.jpg&hash=8a33f98ce54d2cb4c95d67fc080a58b7a5942497)
Wikileaks has obtained secret documents, authored by current Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs, Craig Kelly, and sent by the US Embassy in Santiago to the Secretary of State, CIA and Southern Command of the Pentagon, along with a series of other US embassies in the region. Kelly was the so called leading "mediator" during Washington's military coup in Honduras against President Zelaya in 2009.
The document states the following:
QuoteA SOUTHERN CONE PERSPECTIVE ON COUNTERING CHAVEZ AND REASSERTING U.S. LEADERSHIP (http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=07SANTIAGO983)
REF: ASUNCION 396 Classified By: AMBASSADOR CRAIG KELLY; Reasons 1.4(b), (d)
------- Summary -------
This, part two in a series of joint cables from Southern Cone embassies, looks at ways the U.S. can counter Chavez and reassert U.S. leadership in the region.
From posts' perspectives, there are six main areas of action for the USG as it seeks to limit Chavez's influence: --Know the enemy: We have to better understand how Chavez thinks and what he intends; --Directly engage: We must reassert our presence in the region ; --Enhance military relationships: We should continue to strengthen ties to those military leaders in the region who share our concern over Chavez;
--Play to our strength: We must emphasize that democracy, and a free trade approach that includes corporate social responsibility, provides lasting solutions; --Get the message out: Public diplomacy is key; this is a battle of ideas and visions. Septel provides detailed suggestions. 2. (C) We should neither underestimate Chavez nor lose sight of his vulnerabilities.
-------------- Know Thy Enemy --------------
To effectively counter the threat he represents, we need to know better his objectives and how he intends to pursue them. This requires better intelligence in all of our countries.
------------------------------ Change the Political Landscape ------------------------------
Chile offers another excellent alternative to Chavez. FM Foxley seeks to integrate Chile more fully into the global economy.
Chile has not only stated but demonstrated -- e.g. Bachelet"s letter to House leader Nancy Pelosi expressing Chilean support for congressional ratification of FTAs with Peru, Colombia, and Panama -- its willingness to help bring along other Latin American countries into the global economy.
We should look to find other ways to give Chile the lead on important initiatives, but without making them look like they are our puppets or surrogates.
( C) With regard to Mercosur, we should not be timid in stating that Venezuela"s membership will torpedo U.S. interest in even considering direct negotiations with the trading bloc,
----------------------------- Play to our Mil-Mil Advantage -----------------------------
¶10. (C) Southern Cone militaries remain key institutions in their respective countries and important allies for the U.S. These militaries are generally organized and technically competent. Their desire to maintain interoperability, access to U.S. technology and training are something we can turn to our advantage. As they seek to modernize, professionalize, and transform, they seek closer relations with the US to assist in those processes.
Over the past several years we have seen a steady decrease in funds for critical programs such as International Military Education and Training (IMET) and traditional Commander Activities (TCA) and the elimination of other important programs such as Foreign Military Financing (FMF) and Excess Defense Articles (EDA) due to sanctions under ASPA.
To effectively maintain our mil-to-mil relations and guide pol-mil events in the region in support of our interests, we must reverse the slide. Now is precisely the time we need to be increasing our pol-mil engagement and programs vice decreasing and limiting them. We also need to revisit some long-held and frankly rigid positions on SOFA agreements and insistence on certain privileges and immunities with a view to gaining flexibility to negotiate new defense cooperation agreements with regional militaries.
-------------------------- Stress Our Winning Formula --------------------------
¶12. (C) Chavez has made significant inroads, particularly with local populations, by providing programs for the underprivileged and by casting the U.S. as elitist and only interested in promoting free trade to the benefit of big business. The slogans are facile: Neoliberalism makes the rich richer and the poor poorer; the Bolivarian Revolution guarantees our region's sovereignty and dignity. But they ring true with some local populations and make others feel better about their own lack of progress.
¶13. (C) Transforming our image does not mean we walk away from our commitment to free trade and the promise it delivers to impoverished populations. However, it does mean we should do a better job of promoting free trade by pointing to local and global success stories, making it easier to forge FTAs, and by expanding access to U.S. markets, and by promoting investment. Concluding the Doha Round is critical to revitalizing more local trade negotiations and bolstering our own credibility.
------- COMMENT -------
Add to that the bluster of his anti-imperial, anti-U.S. rhetoric, and a certain squirrelly charisma, both of which continue to find a sympathetic audience in much of Latin America, and he presents a formidable foe. But he certainly can be taken.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faxisoflogic.com%2Fartman%2Fuploads%2F1%2Fclinton_1.jpg&hash=e5b4377b10892d8edf9c988b8774453d639ae129)
QuoteWikileaks: Documents Confirm US Plans Against Venezuela (http://www.chavezcode.com/2010/12/wikileaks-documents-confirm-us-plans.html)
By Eva Golinger. The Chávez Code
The Chávez Code
Friday, Dec 17, 2010
State Department documents published by Wikileaks evidence Washington's plans to "contain" Venezuela's influence in the region and increase efforts to provoke regime change
US Backed Kopassus Target Civillians (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b879wxPbqZ8")
Kopassus-US ties - secret documents (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCk24ol-WPs")
Kopassus-US ties - secret documents (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jybw3v8-OFs&NR=1")
Leaked Kopassus documents reveal that one of Washington's favorite death squads, the Kopassus have been targeting churches and killing tens of thousands of civillians in West Papua Indonesia. The Obama administration resumed military aid to the Kopassus (http://"http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/23/world/la-fg-0723-indonesia-obama-20100723") in July 2010. Aid to the Koppassus had been banned by Congress after their US-backed large scale massacres in East Timor in the 1990's.
Leaked Kopassus Document (http://"http://www.scribd.com/doc/41522587/Satgas-Ban-5-Kopassus-Triw")
Leaked Kopassus Document (http://"http://www.scribd.com/doc/41521310/lapharian")
QuoteAs Obama Lands in Indonesia
US-Backed Death Squad Files Surface (http://www.counterpunch.org/nairn11102010.html)
By ALLAN NAIRN
Jakarta
Secret documents have leaked from inside Kopassus, Indonesia's red berets, which say that Indonesia's US-backed security forces engage in "murder [and] abduction" and show that Kopassus targets churches in West Papua and defines civilian dissidents as the "enemy."
It's not news that the Indonesians have been shitting on West Papuans for a long time. Probably similar to how they did on the East Timorese, which was supported by the US and Australia (filthy f**king sellouts that we are).
Not entirely in line with what Horhey is writing about I don't think, but this is a good video I wanted to share.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUQ_N_vHc0&feature=player_embedded#at=304 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUQ_N_vHc0&feature=player_embedded#at=304)
And here is the response I posted on Facebook...
QuoteI have a few bones to pick about this video. First, it should have came out when it was first revealed that Saddam Hussein didn't have WMDs. Otherwise, it looks like a lame attempt to smear Obama, who at least bothered to formulate an exit strategy unlike his predecessor.
Secondly, we can't just invade a country, destroy parts of it and let it spiral down into the chaos of civil war. We can't leave until the country bears some semblance of stability.
Lastly (unless I think of something else), going back to the first point, the video didn't show clips of Obama announcing plans for troop withdrawal (there are available videos of this) and instead relied on old videos (2009!) of him announcing the surges which would make a sooner exit more possible.
Well since we're on Facebook, I responded there lol
As did I...
I see you've met my brother :D
He seems like an okay dude.
:)