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...and reveals that the aliens are indeed an ancient creation of the space jockeys in the next movie?

This may belong in another topic.  Somebody wake up Hicks.

I hope Ridley Scott won't even get to make another sequel. If he'll make a sequel, I don't care if he reverses himself again, nor will I be surprised if that ends up being the case.

Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 17, 2017, 10:26:07 PM
...and reveals that the aliens are indeed an ancient creation of the space jockeys in the next movie?

This may belong in another topic.  Somebody wake up Hicks.

Wouldn't surprise me since it's all just being made up as we go. Might even do 180 on the SJ and have the actual SJ be something else then we will have to listen to everyone talk about how great it was that it was the plan all along and Scott's a genius.

I'll only feel cheated if the loose ends of Covenant aren't tied up with one more film.

It depends on the story they're trying to tell.  Don't care about canon and if it doesn't follow the rules set up by the other films, as long as the story works.

At this point this is pretty much my attitude as well. As long as it feels natural and goes with the flow, and seems internally consistent, I'm fine with either direction.

That isn't saying much, though. I don't exactly hold the prequels up as solid canon origins anyway.

Quote from: Scorpio on Sep 18, 2017, 05:51:20 AM
Don't care about canon and if it doesn't follow the rules set up by the other films.

So it's your fault then. I'm telling mum.

Not at all. It's obvious that Davids just mimicking the engineers bioweapon and that he has gone robo-insane. Plus there were jockey skulls on a shelf inside of David's lair on the blue-ray extras. So Scott's got that base covered.

I'd feel cheated if Alien: Covenant 2 ends with shitty cgi characters from Alien bitching about the bonus situation. :P

Quote from: Highland on Sep 18, 2017, 06:08:39 AM

Quote from: Scorpio on Sep 18, 2017, 05:51:20 AM
Don't care about canon and if it doesn't follow the rules set up by the other films.

So it's your fault then. I'm telling mum.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs2.quickmeme.com%2Fimg%2F77%2F770015a8742e180f2be65473183e6b23c405606c27240be82bbe2e0b19631fed.jpg&hash=423edefe121296d7c55146154d35097d6c68bece)

Quote from: Local Trouble on Sep 17, 2017, 10:26:07 PM
...and reveals that the aliens are indeed an ancient creation of the space jockeys in the next movie?

This may belong in another topic.  Somebody wake up Hicks.

"Disappointed" about a movie is having a negative emotional reaction to it.
I can't react emotionally to a film which does not exist.
I don't even know if there will be a sequel in the David timeline.

- I can't see how I'd feel "Betrayed" by a film. I can disagree with a movie and then walk away from it.

As for the topic of what the Space Jockeys/Engineers did vs David.
- The SJs had the black goo.
From the black goo combined with other DNA came various mutated creatures; the Deacon (with a chestburster form), the Trilobite, the Hammerpede, facehuggers (shown in the "Prometheus" mural), the Neomorph (including a back burster).

That's plenty before David showed up.
Where does the Engineer creation end and David's begin?
- In Ridley's A:C commentary at 1:11:31;

QuoteThat's a Neomorph. First phase. The Xenomorph has armor.

The Neomorph (created by the Engineer's black goo) is very close to the Xenomorph. All that's added is a tougher skin.
Even in the current version of "Covenant" the Engineers have done all the heavy work of creation.
David has just added to it.

* What did David do?

- From Ridley's commentary at, 1:18:48

QuoteHe designed the idea of perpetuation of growth...

David made it easier for his version of the Neomorph (the Xenomorph) to reproduce by creating the xenomorph egg with a jumping / fast moving facehugger which could attack a victim.

That's it.
Nothing to get all upset about from my POV.

(And considering the genius of the Engineers, my personal non canon view is that they had already done in the past what David did in "Covenant". That's not much of a leap of faith. There are much bigger canon/logic problems in other science fiction movies imo.)

;)

Don't care either way.

As long as the film finishes David's journey.

I don't care really, this thing's been driven to dreck already. Cannot go that much deeper

Alienado.

Here, you people really do need this:


-Windebieste.

People will complain regardless what happens. I'd just rather Ridley finish what he's doing.

Quote from: PsyKore on Sep 18, 2017, 08:25:30 AM
People will complain regardless what happens. I'd just rather Ridley finish what he's doing.

There's no avoiding this. Even if the next movie would be as close to "perfect" as possible, tying up all loose ends in a way that pleases fans with different opinions/expectations, it's just the general mood & atmosphere fans are in right now. People are disappointed and tired, and will find anything to pick on.

It this or more blue tiger nosed/horse tailed fiberoptic aliens from pandora.

So long as its as entertaining and enjoyable as Prometheus and Covenant have been then I'm happy whichever direction it goes.

Quote...and reveals that the aliens are indeed an ancient creation of the space jockeys in the next movie?

The cheat is the Alien being created at all. There is an entire movies worth of exposition needed to undo that.

Quote from: necrotard on Sep 18, 2017, 05:31:44 AM
I'll only feel cheated if the loose ends of Covenant aren't tied up with one more film.

Ummm. What loose ends?
It's a completely telegraphed movie and the ending tells us exactly where the potential next movie is headed.

Covenant ended on a cliffhanger, but it also had a satisfying ending in terms of David's character.

Quote from: Scorpio on Sep 18, 2017, 11:34:07 AM
Covenant ended on a cliffhanger, but it also had a satisfying ending in terms of David's character.

I guess you could call it a cliffhanger, but Prometheus was more of a cliffhanger for me. Covenant is more of a downbeat/twist ending rather than a full cliffhanger. Most of the audience probably left thinking that was just it, finished, David won.

Plenty of shows and movies have that type of ending and never get another sniff regardless.

If they change their minds again.. I wouldn't mind. Although I suppose it would be slightly annoying because it makes Covenant mostly pointless.

From the poll results, I gather that few tears will be shed if Ridley's "more interesting" direction is changed.  :laugh:

I'm past caring now.

After Alien and Aliens I was so excited going into Alien 3. That feeling lasted about ten minutes. Everything since has been more and more disappointing.

There's always a chance Scott could make a decent movie by accident, but I doubt it.

Cheated? I don't care anymore.

I was never a fan of the Prometheus direction from day one it was announced. That's when I started to feel cheated.
Part of what I always considered Alien to be great at is mystery and taking care for each movie to tell the story it needed.
I also remember loving how the movie uplifted itself and the Sci Fi elements sounding like a B Cheesy movie but actually ending up in the league of an A masterpiece. I even think the second and third one can be contenders to that categories.
Prometheus since day one showed that it was an A movie that tried to dumb down everything it could and most of all, kill every mysteries in Alien (Covenant followed that rules too).
I'm personally not in favor of the Creationist / Heliocentric / Self-Centered engineer story which is millions of light years beneath extraterestrial life theories of nowadays (just hear NASA and ESA speaks of Enceladus, Europa and how our own galaxy is a home that has just in a 2000 light years radius around Sol so many candidates in the habitable zone to have life and who knows what other things we know nothing of now?) It feels quite empty and really not dangerous at all which is probably what bother me the most with the Alien now and how I feel cheated, it's just a bit monster with claws that was created in a lab from pre-existing common species.
What strike me most is the uninspired non original way the licence has now taken. It's following the AVP Formula where the creature is a pretext to make an action / horror movie because very little material from the franchise it tried to establish remains. It's like taking Star Wars on earth nowadays and the only link would be because you have a jedi having a light-saber working with Iron Man who then explains that Luke Offspring populated every galaxies in the cosmos and so we are all children of Luke and it took them a long time and they are from a far distant galaxy (dafuq right?)

What surprises me most about Covenant is how this sequel to Prometheus is a 180° from it.

It's clear the Engineers worship some kind of God, with all the statues of humanoid heads. 

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fassets.fodors.com%2Fdestinations%2F477425%2Fmount-rushmore-national-memorial-south-dakota-usa_main.jpg&hash=5fb2564524772e1537bdd0cadd9f63b3b7e3333f)

You can actually see humanoid heads carved into the mountains in Covenant.

The one in Prometheus is set up like a church, though, with the ampules in rows and the head statue at the front, like a figurehead.

Why is it "clear the Engineers worship some kind of God"?

I told you, because the ampule room is set up like a church.  This was intentional.  It is discussed in one of the behind the scenes footage or maybe Ridley said it on the commentary, but that is the stated intention.

Doesn't mean it's a "God".

Yes it does.  A church is a place you go to worship god.  Not political figures or celebrities.

And the building is called 'Engineer Temple'.  A temple is defined as a building devoted to worshipping god/s.

And the heads in the city were "elders".

I think he is too concerned about what his viewers think. It's hard to please everyone. In trying to please certain viewers and then trying to please the other, he ended up with a story that contradicts itself again and again. Or maybe the people who funded his movie insisted him to do this.

Quote from: SM on Sep 19, 2017, 02:46:26 AM
And the heads in the city were "elders".

Was that said by one of the design department on the movie?

The director.

Prometheus ended with limitless possibilities.

Covenant ended with like... the one.

I've never seen a movie's future sequel so very telegraphed right before my very eyes during the movie's ending.

So like. The colonists get infected by David and become the eggs we see on LV-426. Ok. Where's the excitement? The filmmakers are telling me this is gonna happen. Covenant's ending is telling me this is gonna happen. ALIEN, a forty year old movie, is telling me this is gonna happen lol. Why on earth would anyone want to see this movie now? Great cool another downer mean spirited ending like Covenant. And a predictable one.

The whole point of Prometheus was that it wasn't a prequel a'la The Thing, the Z to Alien's A-Y. What. Is. The. Point.

Of course I'm speaking as if the movie is gonna happen. Which isn't likely.

QuoteSo like. The colonists get infected by David and become the eggs we see on LV-426

That makes absolutely no sense.

-The Covenant wasn't going to LV-426.
-The eggs in Alien are of a more biomechanical breed of the creatures.  Ridley intentionally made the design of the alien less mechanical in Covenant to show that it's an earlier draft of the beast.  So how did the newer biomechanical version come about?
-If the eggs weren't directly made by the engineers, how did the eggs in Alien end up in one of their ships?
-Why did that engineer ship crash on LV-426?

These questions are absolutely NOT easily filled in by the imagination and your simplified rundown of the next movie doesn't cover it at all.

So the next movie is apparently not that pre-ordained, therefor, I want to see it.

Quote from: necrotard on Sep 19, 2017, 05:45:23 AM

-The Covenant wasn't going to LV-426.
-The eggs in Alien are of a more biomechanical breed of the creatures.  Ridley intentionally made the design of the alien less mechanical in Covenant to show that it's an earlier draft of the beast.  So how did the newer biomechanical version come about?
-If the eggs weren't directly made by the engineers, how did the eggs in Alien end up in one of their ships?
-Why did that engineer ship crash on LV-426?

These questions are absolutely NOT easily filled in by the imagination and your simplified rundown of the next movie doesn't cover it at all.

So the next movie is apparently not that pre-ordained, therefor, I want to see it.

I fixed all those questions in My take on the next movie  ;D
http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=58731.msg2244512#msg2244512
But I'm not saying they're answers people would like.

Let the man finish his job ( if Fox permits)...............we'll do the sacking and beheading after that. !

I'm not sure I really care what Ridley does any more.

I enjoyed Covenant quite a bit more than Prometheus when it came out, but as time has passed I find that I'm really not bothered where things might go next. I've got almost no desire to see the movie again - I haven't even bothered to buy the Blu-ray yet, nor do I feel especially keen to do so.

With the last two films, Ridley has managed to make me disillusioned where even the AVPs didn't succeed, which is a pretty harsh thing to hear myself saying.

That's virtually the way I feel now.

While Prometheus was suggestive of possible alien origins, it was still left very much a mystery. Covenant has now laid that to rest. For the next film to retcon that would be a bit disappointing at this point, if only because it would be retreading covered ground rather than moving forward.

It would be even more disappointing if all that happened was some throwaway line from David to the effect of, "btw, I was really just copying some old engineer designs I found."

Quote from: necrotard on Sep 19, 2017, 05:45:23 AM

QuoteSo like. The colonists get infected by David and become the eggs we see on LV-426

That makes absolutely no sense.

-The Covenant wasn't going to LV-426.
-The eggs in Alien are of a more biomechanical breed of the creatures.  Ridley intentionally made the design of the alien less mechanical in Covenant to show that it's an earlier draft of the beast.  So how did the newer biomechanical version come about?
-If the eggs weren't directly made by the engineers, how did the eggs in Alien end up in one of their ships?
-Why did that engineer ship crash on LV-426?

These questions are absolutely NOT easily filled in by the imagination and your simplified rundown of the next movie doesn't cover it at all.

So the next movie is apparently not that pre-ordained, therefor, I want to see it.

But who cares about the eggs! That's plot, what's the story. The movie would be just a checklist.

Quote from: Predaker on Sep 19, 2017, 01:34:29 PM
While Prometheus was suggestive of possible alien origins, it was still left very much a mystery. Covenant has now laid that to rest. For the next film to retcon that would be a bit disappointing at this point, if only because it would be retreading covered ground rather than moving forward.

It would be even more disappointing if all that happened was some throwaway line from David to the effect of, "btw, I was really just copying some old engineer designs I found."

Be better if David thought he was a god only to find the Engineers had done it before and he was a forger.

Quote from: SM on Sep 19, 2017, 08:53:53 PM
Be better if David thought he was a god only to find the Engineers had done it before and he was a forger.

(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FyjNNB3N.jpg&hash=d91c781b327ff1fc8b1d6de14c07dd7d5c0add47)

It's depressing to read these posts.  Negative nancys.  When the next film comes out and turns out to be pure fan service, you'll complain about that too and be begging for Ridley to return. 

Covenant already was fan service. So much of the film was just things earlier Alien films had already done (often better).

Quote from: HuDaFuK on Sep 20, 2017, 08:08:42 AM
Covenant already was fan service. So much of the film was just things earlier Alien films had already done (often better).

Aint that the truth.

The question doesn't make sense since it's already heavily hinted in The Advent that the engineers experimented with this stuff in the past.

Other posts on the website there's discussions of Fox trusting Scott and wanting him to find the right story to break new ground with the franchise. 

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=58873.45

http://variety.com/2017/film/features/stacey-snider-21st-century-fox-first-year-1202563799/

It seems Fox is acknowledging they screwed the pooch with Covenant. Perhaps, Scott will reverse himself and tell the story he wanted to tell with the engineers or salvage what is left from Covenant and go from there.   

Quote from: 0321recon on Sep 20, 2017, 05:50:11 PM
Other posts on the website there's discussions of Fox trusting Scott and wanting him to find the right story to break new ground with the franchise. 

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=58873.45

http://variety.com/2017/film/features/stacey-snider-21st-century-fox-first-year-1202563799/

It seems Fox is acknowledging they screwed the pooch with Covenant. Perhaps, Scott will reverse himself and tell the story he wanted to tell with the engineers or salvage what is left from Covenant and go from there.   

Great news. FOX still trust in my man: Ridley Scott.

I don't see anything that could be salvageable from covenant. And yes I'll be disappointment if they retcon and change things from covenant. They made it? did they not like it, story, film as whole. Or are do they not like it because it made no money? If they did not like it as a whole on a personal level, then why did they release it in the first place. Oh and obviously those test screenings were a joke. I think they sabotaged themselves by having hoards of test screenings. Have professional's review, test it. Why have average joe's dictate what should be in an Alien Prequal. People might want aliens in it, but that doesn't mean it will be great. Sometimes new stuff can be better. I think majority would want something new and different. Let the man himself do his thing. Sometimes what the fan's want is not always practical or the best. I think the people wanting Aliens in Promy was a vocal fan boy minority. I guess in reality it's actually are (fan community) fault. For real it is. We bitched about Promy having no Aliens then look what we got. The ones complaining seem somewhat happy and the much larger group who didn't care about the aliens disliked it. Thanks guy's (the vary vocal and naive). Just Kidding. :D

Obviously I'm covering ground already covered here and my post is mostly sarcasm. Please nothing personal,  It's just thats what it seems like from my observation. Beside's I'm a fan boy as well, but I was in much agreement with Ridly Scott's decisions on Promy. Now I hope everyone can see Ridly was possibly right and does know a thing or two.

I also get the impression that Fox was not all that impressed with Prometheus. A 130 Mil budget and slightly over 400 mil BO world wide. IDK about you but to me for an alien film, that was a great success.  Obviously not to Fox who waited 5 years later and a reduced budget for sequel. Did they think that was going to make more money then Promy because of da Aliens are in it now LOL. I'm just bewildered, nothing these people do makes one lick of sense to me. Well That's my rant and thoughts.

Nothing at all "personal" about being labelled not only "twelve" but also "retarded"...

One day people will learn what "nothing personal" really means. ::)

Quote from: bleau on Sep 21, 2017, 09:55:11 AM
Mo Aliens, needs mo Aliens, what are we twelve and retarded

Really getting bored of seeing comments like this. If you can't express opinions without resulting to crappy comments like this, let's not bother.

Quote from: SM on Sep 21, 2017, 10:07:27 AM
Nothing at all "personal" about being labelled not only "twelve" but also "retarded"...

If your offended, I' apologize, and any one else. Simply meant me and general fans, as in making fun of are self's. Meaning indirectly it's our (possibly) fault.
Besides I wasn't calling anyone specifically dumb or retarded. I was Generalizing. ;)

Idk, maybe I do come off as rude to some and I apologies in advance, just trying to get my point out. I'll remove it if I have to.  Or change wording.

And to be clear my Post are thoughtful and vary explanatory. Perhaps a comment in my post was crappy, all I can do is be sorry. I changed it.

Nobody bitched about Prometheus having no Aliens.

QuoteNobody bitched about Prometheus having no Aliens.

Ridley Scott would beg to differ.

"They want f***ing aliens, I'll give'em f***ing aliens." LOL

https://io9.gizmodo.com/ridley-scott-admits-fan-backlash-over-prometheus-influe-1795126523  (https://io9.gizmodo.com/ridley-scott-admits-fan-backlash-over-prometheus-influe-1795126523)

Quote from: bleau on Sep 21, 2017, 10:56:39 AM
If your offended, I' apologize, and any one else.

I can only speak for myself. No apology necessary, I took no offense in your comment. I understood it as a generalization.


Anyway, back on topic, I don't harbor the negative view on Scott's Prometheus/Covenant direction as some here do. They can never recapture the lightning of Alien 79.  That was a unique star we watched explode. A rare occurrence.

A Grand Slam of Timing that was everything:  an otherwise average screenwriter (imo) happened to create a great screenplay, a young talented director on the tail end of an era when studios allowed directors to take risks, no video game/internet/multimedia saturation, and audience desire was at its peak for sci-fi.

The last factor I mention above played a huge role. Reading a John Carpenter interview awhile back on his thoughts of The Thing's disappointment at the box office. Recalling his quote from memory, so not accurate word for word, "A couple weeks before The Thing was about to be released, the studio mailed me a market research they had done. The results showed that audience desire for sci-fi has dropped by 70%."

My point is, when a new alien film is released, I don't expect a grand slam. I have done replays of every alien movie as I suspect many here have also. Now, a big part of why I do so many replays is because I'm not a gamer and have no interest in comic books or novelization. So it''s mainly cinema that I turn to for a xeno fix.

I think i don't really care anymore, he can do whatever he wants (he already did anyway).

Quote from: bleau on Sep 21, 2017, 01:37:22 PM

QuoteNobody bitched about Prometheus having no Aliens.

Ridley Scott would beg to differ.

"They want f***ing aliens, I'll give'em f***ing aliens." LOL

https://io9.gizmodo.com/ridley-scott-admits-fan-backlash-over-prometheus-influe-1795126523  (https://io9.gizmodo.com/ridley-scott-admits-fan-backlash-over-prometheus-influe-1795126523)

I'm unsure if he meant the studio or the audience here. I don't think the problem with Prom was the Alien or lack of, having no form of creature outside of the snake, zombie and Engineer was perhaps a touch too much. The Neomorph worked perfectly for Covenant and I think it would have worked for Prometheus too.

Prometheus did not need aliens.

The alien in Covenant is fan service, but fan service is not the point of the movie, unlike AVPR/Aliens 2.

Quote from: bleau on Sep 21, 2017, 01:37:22 PM

QuoteNobody bitched about Prometheus having no Aliens.

Ridley Scott would beg to differ.

"They want f***ing aliens, I'll give'em f***ing aliens." LOL

https://io9.gizmodo.com/ridley-scott-admits-fan-backlash-over-prometheus-influe-1795126523  (https://io9.gizmodo.com/ridley-scott-admits-fan-backlash-over-prometheus-influe-1795126523)

Typical brash, out of touch Ridley.

"They want that jack in the box stuff. Like Brett and Dallas. So instead of subverting expectations I'll just have the Alien stalk and kill in predictable, time wasting scenes with upworth, ricks and rosenthal

Quote from: PsyKore on Sep 18, 2017, 08:25:30 AM
People will complain regardless what happens. I'd just rather Ridley finish what he's doing.

I agree with PsyKore. If I felt cheated by Covenant, its because I followed it's development and got the impression Ridley intended Covenant and the creation of the Alien/Big Chap-style was meant to be the ending of these prequels IE; Covenant is meant to be Prometheus 3 and instead its this adjuncated mixture of what should have been 2 movies.

I always thought the idea that one sequel cant be redeemed by another is quite rubbish, right? Its like the desire to stunt the continuation of something is just making something that hasnt happened yet, suffer in response to our displeasure for something that did. Any direction that hasn't happened yet can be just as bad or worse than what's happened before, right? So, it doesnt make much sense to me to say that a sequel to Covenant shouldn't happen.

What bothers me is when they don't finish a story they've started and move forward. I even feel cheated by A:R, not leading to Alien 5. Sure A:R was garbage but you could redeem it with a great Alien 5. I feel the same way about this and Covenant and Prometheus are both are kinda great movies, IMO. To quote Cameron, "Maybe they arent the movies I'd personally make, but you could say that about anything."

I applaud the transition from A:R to Prometheus, since Prometheus doesnt completely ignore the themes added to the series by Resurrection. I love that about this franchise, every film seems to include all the elements which came before it. A good witer could easilybelieve I could write a sequel to COVENANT and the Alien franchise that includes David and Ripley at once without ever even mentioning whether its a sequel to Aliens or A:R.

What makes me feel cheated is when the studio doesn't trust the filmmakers and tries to manufacture a bit too much; when it becomes more about "making a good soup" that includes all the ingredients we've come to expect, and those ingredients become more important than telling a good story. I know with a franchise like this, its inevitable that some of that will happen, sure. That's why I'm impressed Ridley was able to do so much that he wanted to do, within that framework in his prequels.

No.

Ridley Scott is pragmatic so I'm 90% sure he is going to be reversing himself again.

He is going to be making something similar to Aliens(J.C.). Aliens 2 directed by Ridley Scott.

He did say in the Empire podcast that the next one will be in a colony.

I guess it depends on what he means by his War of the Worlds comparisons. That could seem to mean a bigger scale type conflict.

If it's the last one in the series, I think Ridley will pull out all stops.
A 2-3 hour long grand finale could be sweet. And a longer length could provide the occasion to incorporate the right dose of Alien, Aliens and Prometheus.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Oct 02, 2017, 08:11:22 AM
I guess it depends on what he means by his War of the Worlds comparisons. That could seem to mean a bigger scale type conflict.

Don't have the source, but there was mention of 4 parties being involved in the next movie. Does fit in with a bigger scale type conflict.
David, Engineers, colonists and a new Weyland-Yutani crew is my guess.

Considering the response to Covenant, I'd be very surprised if anyone gives Scott the budget to do anything grand or 3 hours long, assuming there will even be a sequel.

Quote from: Paranoid Android on Oct 02, 2017, 08:53:36 AM
Considering the response to Covenant, I'd be very surprised if anyone gives Scott the budget to do anything grand or 3 hours long, assuming there will even be a sequel.

Agree, we can also pretty much take whatever Scott says in interviews with a pinch of salt. The editing in Covenant is pretty bad, no doubt to get it in under the 2 hours. Budget wise, I doubt he's getting more.

Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Oct 02, 2017, 08:11:22 AM
I guess it depends on what he means by his War of the Worlds comparisons. That could seem to mean a bigger scale type conflict.

Ive been thinking about his comments regarding this scenario, it's not really achievable within the Prequel timeline, is it? It sorta implies it would have to happen after the events in Alien 3, at least, no?