It feels that the Neomorph is way more of a "perfect organism" than the xenomorph. First off, the life cycle is more efficient. Nothing is quicker than spreading disease than an airborne pathogen. It seems that if anything, an Egg and a face-hugger just complicate things. Also, after the neomorph is born it is instantly dangerous because it's just a smaller version of the adult. The xenomorph on the other hand(in all other movies besides AC) have an infantile stage which is the chesterbuster we all know and love. The only time a chest buster killed anyone other than the host was in Alien Resurrection. Larry purvis chestbuster kills Dr. Mason Wren. What are your thoughts?
Chestbursters have the potential to be just as dangerous as Neomorph infants, due to their size and speed.
Neomorphs seem to gestate much faster, but we don't know what their life cycle is in terms of production of the motes. ie. We don't know how a Neomorph can create more Neomorphs.
Xenomorphs would appear to be more robust, and have the advantage of being able to create more Aliens via facehuggers.
There's pros and cons to both.
Quote from: GreybackElder on Nov 29, 2017, 03:00:21 AM
Nothing is quicker than spreading disease than an airborne pathogen.
It's not a pathogen it's way too big and it's airborne abilities are very limited.
Quote from: GreybackElder on Nov 29, 2017, 03:00:21 AM
Nothing is quicker than spreading disease than an airborne pathogen.
Neomorph fits with the nature and "perfect" with the environment.
But xenomorph is different. It's against the nature. It's tempered and manufactured. It's specialized in purpose based on who created it. It's perfect to the eye of creator (Android, Engineer, etc). Like David is to Weyland. But David is a product that against the nature. It doesn't fit at all. He & Walter tried a lot of things to fit. Xenomorph probably the nearest thing that David hopes to be perfect to him.
Not at all, way too weak and squelchy. People seem to have forgotten that the true Xenomorph has a silicone exoskeleton which is extremely tough where the Neomorph was fleshy and soft, easy meat.
Facehuggers replace their cells with polarised silicon. We don't know if adult Aliens have silicone exoskeletons. Well we know they aren't 'exoskeletons', but that's by the by.
Very good point everyone. Xenos do have a silicone like substance in their exoskeleton, making them
One tough little son of a bitch. Also Xenos aren't limited to mote like plants.
I guess my thinking is that the mode of transmission for the Neomorph seems much more efficient than the Xenos. I mean, you disturb a plant like thing and motes from that infect you. There is no "middle man." No facehugger that has to latch on. Also the motes are microscopic making it impossible to see.
But overall you all make a convincing point. We don't know the true life cycle of the neomorphs. Their limited by the environment. Also, I assume you have to get pretty close to the plants to be infected. There really are advantages and disadvantages to both species. Although, I'd love to see how a full grown deacon stands up to this.
Thanks everyone.
The Neomorph's reproduction IS more efficient, yes..
but
The FaceHugger's modus operandi reflects David's "rapey" attitude towards humans.
It can be seen as a kind of signature and an "f u" to humanity from David.
The "motes" are deadly.. but the facehuggers are deadly AND humilliating.
And that seems to be David's goal, really.
+ the xeno's are a LOT tougher than the neomorphs, as has been said already.
Quote from: GreybackElder on Nov 29, 2017, 03:00:21 AM
It feels that the Neomorph is way more of a "perfect organism" than the xenomorph. First off, the life cycle is more efficient. Nothing is quicker than spreading disease than an airborne pathogen. It seems that if anything, an Egg and a face-hugger just complicate things. Also, after the neomorph is born it is instantly dangerous because it's just a smaller version of the adult. The xenomorph on the other hand(in all other movies besides AC) have an infantile stage which is the chesterbuster we all know and love. The only time a chest buster killed anyone other than the host was in Alien Resurrection. Larry purvis chestbuster kills Dr. Mason Wren. What are your thoughts?
Spores are ofcourse more efficient & undetectable method of impregnation. And I see no difference between Neo & Xeno in terms of strength & agility. So what David did, simply didn't result into anything special.
The only advantage I see is that the Facehuggers are more locomotion-oriented and can crawl and hunt the host more specifically instead of air-borne spores which is much dependant on the force of the wind.
>> Facehuggers can move long distance and specifically. Rooms to Rooms, Wall to Walls.
>> Facehuggers can attack the host even in his suit and helmets. It has the ability to slowly erode glasses of Helmets & Hypersleep chambers and make its way through without harming the host.
>> Facehuggers can temporarily put the host unconscious (and incur temporary amnesia). This can prevent the host attempting to kill himself/herself after he/she learns that they're infected and hence preventing the death of undeveloped chestbuster embryo.
>> I think Facehuggers also bear some intelligence allowing them to specifically attack at the right moment, Run, Hide etc. Just my guess. As we see in Aliens, the facehuggers attacked Ripley & Newt just when they went to sleep and in a room where there weren't soldiers around. I wouldn't say literally that intelligent but in some way, they act more voluntarily.
If at all David improvised the Alien lifecylce, he did it by introducing (engineering) Facehugger.
At the end, we also see that the Facehuggers eggs are even more handy & transportable if they're in its embryo form.
>> About Spores, I think that the Pods needed to stay on ground. They're most probably mutated spore-producing Fungus. Its grown on Tree stems/roots. So it needs to remain attached. If its true, then ofcourse, they aren't transportatable or else one need to cut the whole tree stem alongwith it. Just my guess.
Well if we go from the story that's now been presented to us then it's clear each creature serves two completely different purposes. One is a deadly pathogen designed or harnessed by the engineers to wipe out planets. The other is David's pet project. The mistake is trying to compare them.
We, the fans, are probably still looking at it from the angle that the Alien was a Bio weapon and thus comparing it to the real bio weapon ( the black goo) , when Covenant pretty much puts that to bed.
Maybe it's the perfect organism. That doesn't mean it's the perfect weapon.
QuoteThe only advantage I see is that the Facehuggers are more locomotion-oriented and can crawl and hunt the host more specifically instead of air-borne spores which is much dependant on the force of the wind.
They move of their own volition as evidenced by Ledward's case.
Quote from: Highland on Nov 29, 2017, 03:40:51 PM
Well if we go from the story that's now been presented to us then it's clear each creature serves two completely different purposes. One is a deadly pathogen designed or harnessed by the engineers to wipe out planets. The other is David's pet project. The mistake is trying to compare them.
We, the fans, are probably still looking at it from the angle that the Alien was a Bio weapon and thus comparing it to the real bio weapon ( the black goo) , when Covenant pretty much puts that to bed.
Maybe it's the perfect organism. That doesn't mean it's the perfect weapon.
Exactly. The Neomorph spore pods would be better for killing a population, but David's ultimate prize is his big Wolf. It's not about creating the perfect bioweapon, the black goo already fills that role, it's about creating the
perfect organism.
Also, I'm pretty sure neomorphs don't have the acid-blood defense mechanism. I see a lot of people citing Walter's hand being burned off by acid, but I'm pretty sure the neomorph bites it off.
It does bite it off but his hand is also left with smoke coming off of it.
Neomorphs don't seem to have much in the way of natural armour plating either and can be taken down quite easily with a few short bursts. The xenomorph is much more resilient in this respect.
And if you are Ridley Scott the xenomorph can regenerate missing body parts completely.
Quote from: necrotard on Dec 04, 2017, 01:22:38 PM
Also, I'm pretty sure neomorphs don't have the acid-blood defense mechanism. I see a lot of people citing Walter's hand being burned off by acid, but I'm pretty sure the neomorph bites it off.
Though it is never fully showcased in the film that they have acid blood, (except Walters smoking hand) I would assume they do because from what we have seen whatever is created from the black goo has acid blood, for example the hammerpede. Other than the hammerpede and proto-alien though we haven't seen any black goo creations bleed.
Fifield didn't.
And there's no evidence to suggest Neomorphs do either.
Quote from: SM on Dec 04, 2017, 07:43:12 PM
Fifield didn't.
And there's no evidence to suggest Neomorphs do either.
I assume Fifield didn't because he wasn't fully mutated yet, as for the neomorphs I don't understand why they wouldn't but yah they didn't really show if they did. The only evidence is Walter's smoking hand but that could just be smoke from the air being cold and his hand being warm.
QuoteThe only evidence is Walter's smoking hand but that could just be smoke from the air being cold and his hand being warm.
Makes sense.
I would go along with the smoking hand wound being a result of core temperature being higher than the ambient temperature and the possibility that the wound was self cauterising to stop fluid loss.
Or it could be heat from damaged machinery.
His hand hisses as he raises it up - watch it again.
It's supposed to be melting with acid. Simplest explanation here is that the Neo's have the acid biology.
Quote from: GreybackElder on Nov 29, 2017, 03:00:21 AM
It feels that the Neomorph is way more of a "perfect organism" than the xenomorph. First off, the life cycle is more efficient. Nothing is quicker than spreading disease than an airborne pathogen.
It depends on what is the measure of better.
* For wiping out animal life on a planet, the Neomorph is the better creature.
- Black goo infected spores would quickly spread through the air around a planet creating fungus (that produce more spores).
The fungus waits for a victim.
Eventually the Neomorphs/fungus will have done its job. All animal life is infected and eliminated. Then the Neomorphs/fungus will eventually die over time and with no way to get off the planet, their spread ends.
Quote from: GreybackElder on Nov 29, 2017, 03:00:21 AMIt seems that if anything, an Egg and a face-hugger just complicate things.
It is the difference between the more random reproduction of the Neomorph and more deliberate choices which are possible with the Xenomorph.
- The Xenomorph species has a Queen who can choose the most protected place to lay eggs, like near a nuclear reactor ("Aliens") to protect it from human attack.
- The Queen/Xenos/Facehuggers can stow away on a ship and strategically hide, place eggs on ships.
The Xenomorphs can then spread through the galaxy as stowaways.
So, the Xenomorphs are taken to other planets and can reach other ships.
* That's the main advantage of the Xenomorph.
The Neomorph needs someone (usually the Engineers) to place the black goo in the air on a planet to infect spores. Then the Neomorphs stay on that planet.
The Xenomorphs will roam the galaxy.
;)
PS. I'll add a very speculative film theory just for fun. I'm not trying to prove this is true.
Could the Xenomorph place eggs in locations which may increase the chance of reproducing with certain creatures over others?
In "Alien 3" the viewer learns that a Xenomorph chestburster could come out of a dog.
Doing some wild retconning of the "Alien" Director's Cut (where the Xeno can transform humans into eggs), could the cat (Jonesey) have been transformed?
(When I first saw "Alien", I wondered if Jonesey had been infected in some way by the creature.)
- Anyway, could Xenomorphs make choices about what creature to breed with in picking out better mates?
Quote from: Highland on Dec 05, 2017, 02:07:00 PM
His hand hisses as he raises it up - watch it again.
It's supposed to be melting with acid. Simplest explanation here is that the Neo's have the acid biology.
The simplest explanation without anything to really back it up...?
Aye, that's the only time we see anything like that. When Oram shoots it later the blood doesn't appear to melt the stone away.
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 07:25:45 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 05, 2017, 02:07:00 PM
His hand hisses as he raises it up - watch it again.
It's supposed to be melting with acid. Simplest explanation here is that the Neo's have the acid biology.
The simplest explanation without anything to really back it up...?
Unless Android blood chemically reacts to the air ( not seen in any other film), why insert that sound effect.
I'll buy that it's a sound editing blunder though.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 06, 2017, 08:58:18 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 07:25:45 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 05, 2017, 02:07:00 PM
His hand hisses as he raises it up - watch it again.
It's supposed to be melting with acid. Simplest explanation here is that the Neo's have the acid biology.
The simplest explanation without anything to really back it up...?
Unless Android blood chemically reacts to the air ( not seen in any other film), why insert that sound effect.
I'll buy that it's a sound editing blunder though.
I don't know why is this heck of a debate related to Walter's forearm smoking. The Neomorph bit it and it's the short-circuit which made the smoke. It was a subtle way of showing Walter's robotic arm.
The Neomorph didn't have acid blood. Oram shoots the Neomorph and then shoots again while it's lying on the floor and there wasn't any smoke from the floor due to any corrosion.
It's an inconsistency originated from the amateurish mind of Michael Green and we have to deal with it.
Neomorphs were shot while attacking people and they never got acid burns. And if they just have acid saliva they would've made some effort to show it - like when it bit Rosenthal.
The Xenomorph was never shown to have acid saliva, though, only blood. Saliva was KY jelly.
Yes, but we're talking about the Neomorph in this instance.
Right or wrong, I always saw the Neomorph as a natural evolution of the black goo, something unique to the planet that derived from the way the black goo interacted with the local fauna and flora. Which meant that it had no acid blood.
With David engineering the Xenomorph, adding acid blood would mean that the creature was as dangerous in death as it was in life. All part of David's efforts to create a "perfect organism."
Quote from: Stitch on Dec 06, 2017, 09:24:06 PM
The Xenomorph was never shown to have acid saliva, though, only blood. Saliva was KY jelly.
Well, there's a part in Alien Resurrection where a Xeno spits acid at a dude IIRC.
I would bet dollars to donuts my ex-wife has acid for blood.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 06, 2017, 10:42:14 PM
Quote from: Stitch on Dec 06, 2017, 09:24:06 PM
The Xenomorph was never shown to have acid saliva, though, only blood. Saliva was KY jelly.
Well, there's a part in Alien Resurrection where a Xeno spits acid at a dude IIRC.
Alien 3 and Resurrection.
But generally the saliva isn't acidic, otherwise there'd be hull breaches out the wazoo.
Saliva isn't acidic and neither is slime, of which Aliens exude more than their fair share - but their blood is corrosive.
All an Alien has to do is bite the interior of its mouth with its tongue and hey, Presto! Oral hemorrhage that it can spit out. Not hard to figure out, really. All Aliens can probably do it. Don't need to see it every time, though.
-Windebieste.
Quote from: The_Foxcatcher on Dec 06, 2017, 02:45:09 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 06, 2017, 08:58:18 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 07:25:45 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 05, 2017, 02:07:00 PM
His hand hisses as he raises it up - watch it again.
It's supposed to be melting with acid. Simplest explanation here is that the Neo's have the acid biology.
The simplest explanation without anything to really back it up...?
Unless Android blood chemically reacts to the air ( not seen in any other film), why insert that sound effect.
I'll buy that it's a sound editing blunder though.
I don't know why is this heck of a debate related to Walter's forearm smoking. The Neomorph bit it and it's the short-circuit which made the smoke. It was a subtle way of showing Walter's robotic arm.
The Neomorph didn't have acid blood. Oram shoots the Neomorph and then shoots again while it's lying on the floor and there wasn't any smoke from the floor due to any corrosion.
It's an inconsistency originated from the amateurish mind of Michael Green and we have to deal with it.
I'm just saying that the sound effect gives the impression it's been melted, since we never see this hissing in any other scene when a synthetic gets damaged.
Quote from: TWJones on Dec 06, 2017, 10:38:00 PM
With David engineering the Xenomorph, adding acid blood would mean that the creature was as dangerous in death as it was in life. All part of David's efforts to create a "perfect organism."
The problem with that is we see the Hammerpede also have acidic blood. It may have had that ability previously but I think the implication, at the time anyway, with the accelerant was that it was giving Alien-like abilities and appearances to other creatures.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 07, 2017, 09:15:08 AM
Quote from: TWJones on Dec 06, 2017, 10:38:00 PM
With David engineering the Xenomorph, adding acid blood would mean that the creature was as dangerous in death as it was in life. All part of David's efforts to create a "perfect organism."
The problem with that is we see the Hammerpede also have acidic blood. It may have had that ability previously but I think the implication, at the time anyway, with the accelerant was that it was giving Alien-like abilities and appearances to other creatures.
I still feel thats the case with the accelerant. It creates violent creatures that have traits the original Alien had but it just turns out the accelerant came first. Maybe it doesn't give each creature acid blood but in most cases they all seem to share something with the Alien.
Hell, it's possible the accelerate didn't come first. It could be derived from the Alien itself. Similar to what we discover in the Alien III Gibson drafts about the Alien's chemistry being very very aggressive and tenacious and prone to finding it's pure form one way or the other. The accelerate could like two-way roots of a tree, branching out, contorting, but ultimately finding their way back to the Alien in it's purest form. That is, after all, true to the Alien's nature. A survivor.
Hmmmm. I think I could also get behind the idea of the accelerant being derivative of the Alien. It kind of fits into that fan theory that the Engineers are imitating the Space Jockeys. They've imitated their space tech and suits, now they're trying to find a way to imitate the Jockey's Aliens.
Would be slightly inconceivable that David could spend 10 years coming up with almost the exact creature with some human body parts and a jar of black goo. The accelerant making the Alien seems to fit better.
When Prometheus first came out my original thought was that the accelerant was derived from Alien DNA and was essentially made to make the species more controllable/containable. As time went on though and after Covenant I fee like the accelerant is the beginning or at least it was derived from something much worse. Prometheus showed us in the murals that the alien already existed but their main focus was still the accelerant which makes me think that it is something the Engineers had found and experimented with, just as David is doing.
I think it works with the idea that the engineers are just pawns as well and that there are bigger and worse things out there.
Quote from: Space7Horror on Dec 08, 2017, 08:33:18 PM
When Prometheus first came out my original thought was that the accelerant was derived from Alien DNA and was essentially made to make the species more controllable/containable. As time went on though and after Covenant I fee like the accelerant is the beginning or at least it was derived from something much worse. Prometheus showed us in the murals that the alien already existed but their main focus was still the accelerant which makes me think that it is something the Engineers had found and experimented with, just as David is doing.
I think it works with the idea that the engineers are just pawns as well and that there are bigger and worse things out there.
In original draft by Jon Spaihts, there were Scarabs instead of Black Goo. The scarabs used to inject DNA matrix which then spreads across the body into each cells of the Host and replaces the Host's DNA with the delivery DNA. On primitive Earth, the scarab injects Engineer's DNA into an early hominid woman and transforming her into more human. Fifield was injected with Xenomorph DNA and he turned into Xenomorphic creature.
So if we believe the Black Goo to have same kind of action, then the Black Goo is a version of 'Vector virus'. It is imbibded with the Ultramorph's (Mural creature) DNA. It enters the body on cellular level and replaces the host DNA by the delivery DNA.
Quote from: The_Foxcatcher on Dec 09, 2017, 12:37:50 PM
Quote from: Space7Horror on Dec 08, 2017, 08:33:18 PM
When Prometheus first came out my original thought was that the accelerant was derived from Alien DNA and was essentially made to make the species more controllable/containable. As time went on though and after Covenant I fee like the accelerant is the beginning or at least it was derived from something much worse. Prometheus showed us in the murals that the alien already existed but their main focus was still the accelerant which makes me think that it is something the Engineers had found and experimented with, just as David is doing.
I think it works with the idea that the engineers are just pawns as well and that there are bigger and worse things out there.
In original draft by Jon Spaihts, there were Scarabs instead of Black Goo. The scarabs used to inject DNA matrix which then spreads across the body into each cells of the Host and replaces the Host's DNA with the delivery DNA. On primitive Earth, the scarab injects Engineer's DNA into an early hominid woman and transforming her into more human. Fifield was injected with Xenomorph DNA and he turned into Xenomorphic creature.
So if we believe the Black Goo to have same kind of action, then the Black Goo is a version of 'Vector virus'. It is imbibded with the Ultramorph's (Mural creature) DNA. It enters the body on cellular level and replaces the host DNA by the delivery DNA.
I actually like that idea. That it is customizable and the accelerant can change the DNA of whomever it comes in contact with based off how it was initially created. It would actually explain how the engineer in the opening of Prometheus drank an accelerant like substance but created humans and not Aliens. It must have contained the DNA of Engineers.
Quote from: Space7Horror on Dec 09, 2017, 01:57:20 PM
Quote from: The_Foxcatcher on Dec 09, 2017, 12:37:50 PM
Quote from: Space7Horror on Dec 08, 2017, 08:33:18 PM
When Prometheus first came out my original thought was that the accelerant was derived from Alien DNA and was essentially made to make the species more controllable/containable. As time went on though and after Covenant I fee like the accelerant is the beginning or at least it was derived from something much worse. Prometheus showed us in the murals that the alien already existed but their main focus was still the accelerant which makes me think that it is something the Engineers had found and experimented with, just as David is doing.
I think it works with the idea that the engineers are just pawns as well and that there are bigger and worse things out there.
In original draft by Jon Spaihts, there were Scarabs instead of Black Goo. The scarabs used to inject DNA matrix which then spreads across the body into each cells of the Host and replaces the Host's DNA with the delivery DNA. On primitive Earth, the scarab injects Engineer's DNA into an early hominid woman and transforming her into more human. Fifield was injected with Xenomorph DNA and he turned into Xenomorphic creature.
So if we believe the Black Goo to have same kind of action, then the Black Goo is a version of 'Vector virus'. It is imbibded with the Ultramorph's (Mural creature) DNA. It enters the body on cellular level and replaces the host DNA by the delivery DNA.
I actually like that idea. That it is customizable and the accelerant can change the DNA of whomever it comes in contact with based off how it was initially created. It would actually explain how the engineer in the opening of Prometheus drank an accelerant like substance but created humans and not Aliens. It must have contained the DNA of Engineers.
Yes, actually, in original draft of Jon Spaihts, the Engineer in the prologue scene opens some can and scarabs comes out of it and crawls over all of his body slowly ripping off his body bit by bit and engulfing his DNA until his body is fully consumed (disintegrated). These scarabs then scatter all over the surface of Earth. One of them then attacks a Primitive Hominid woman on her neck and injects the DNA matrix.
So... To sum up, Scarabs disintegrated Engineers' body and then mutated an Earthly Life form. So it's possible that the original Black Goo was designed to disintegrate a life form first to derive its DNA and then used to mutate other life forms with that DNA.
It definitely adds to the mystery of the accelerant and allows the mystery of it's origins and the origins of the Aliens original DNA to be kept a mystery. David just made a variant of the creature, now we just need to see how the Derelict fits in to all of this.
Quote from: Space7Horror on Dec 09, 2017, 01:57:20 PM
Quote from: The_Foxcatcher on Dec 09, 2017, 12:37:50 PM
Quote from: Space7Horror on Dec 08, 2017, 08:33:18 PM
When Prometheus first came out my original thought was that the accelerant was derived from Alien DNA and was essentially made to make the species more controllable/containable. As time went on though and after Covenant I fee like the accelerant is the beginning or at least it was derived from something much worse. Prometheus showed us in the murals that the alien already existed but their main focus was still the accelerant which makes me think that it is something the Engineers had found and experimented with, just as David is doing.
I think it works with the idea that the engineers are just pawns as well and that there are bigger and worse things out there.
In original draft by Jon Spaihts, there were Scarabs instead of Black Goo. The scarabs used to inject DNA matrix which then spreads across the body into each cells of the Host and replaces the Host's DNA with the delivery DNA. On primitive Earth, the scarab injects Engineer's DNA into an early hominid woman and transforming her into more human. Fifield was injected with Xenomorph DNA and he turned into Xenomorphic creature.
So if we believe the Black Goo to have same kind of action, then the Black Goo is a version of 'Vector virus'. It is imbibded with the Ultramorph's (Mural creature) DNA. It enters the body on cellular level and replaces the host DNA by the delivery DNA.
I actually like that idea. That it is customizable and the accelerant can change the DNA of whomever it comes in contact with based off how it was initially created. It would actually explain how the engineer in the opening of Prometheus drank an accelerant like substance but created humans and not Aliens. It must have contained the DNA of Engineers.
Yeah, Spaihts' nanomachines were less ambiguous than Lindelof's alchemy. But the origin of the xenomorph is almost as ambiguous in that draft, opening up the possibilities for different scenarios.
Is the Xenomorph a natural life form? (maybe the Engineers found it and then used the Accelerant / Scarabs to create the xeno-like creatures. Or even they could have used some ancestral biomechanical monster as raw material to create the Black Goo)
Or perhaps it's the other way, the xeno-like creatures were first, and later the Xenomorph was created by the Engineers / David.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-NPCQ46TB6wI%2FUCVVh-cTkTI%2FAAAAAAAALDA%2FG0SzoK5j5so%2Fs400%2FPrometheus%2B-%2BSala%2B-%2BMural.jpg&hash=8abfc3b93ee4a77138a3b695a7f597011517e2ae)
But what is even more interesting...
Who created the black goo in the first place? it was an invention of the Engineers, or someone else? (BTW, when I say "someone else", I'm not thinking about the "Truly Space Jockey", since I've already accepted that the Engineers are the Jockeys, but I'm dreaming about something different and new).
Anyway, I am aware that such questions will never be answered in the form of film. It is not necessary, but hey! one can dream. After all, Engineers technology is worthy of being explored in some way.
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Dec 09, 2017, 09:11:42 PM
Quote from: Space7Horror on Dec 09, 2017, 01:57:20 PM
Quote from: The_Foxcatcher on Dec 09, 2017, 12:37:50 PM
Quote from: Space7Horror on Dec 08, 2017, 08:33:18 PM
When Prometheus first came out my original thought was that the accelerant was derived from Alien DNA and was essentially made to make the species more controllable/containable. As time went on though and after Covenant I fee like the accelerant is the beginning or at least it was derived from something much worse. Prometheus showed us in the murals that the alien already existed but their main focus was still the accelerant which makes me think that it is something the Engineers had found and experimented with, just as David is doing.
I think it works with the idea that the engineers are just pawns as well and that there are bigger and worse things out there.
In original draft by Jon Spaihts, there were Scarabs instead of Black Goo. The scarabs used to inject DNA matrix which then spreads across the body into each cells of the Host and replaces the Host's DNA with the delivery DNA. On primitive Earth, the scarab injects Engineer's DNA into an early hominid woman and transforming her into more human. Fifield was injected with Xenomorph DNA and he turned into Xenomorphic creature.
So if we believe the Black Goo to have same kind of action, then the Black Goo is a version of 'Vector virus'. It is imbibded with the Ultramorph's (Mural creature) DNA. It enters the body on cellular level and replaces the host DNA by the delivery DNA.
I actually like that idea. That it is customizable and the accelerant can change the DNA of whomever it comes in contact with based off how it was initially created. It would actually explain how the engineer in the opening of Prometheus drank an accelerant like substance but created humans and not Aliens. It must have contained the DNA of Engineers.
Yeah, Spaihts' nanomachines were less ambiguous than Lindelof's alchemy. But the origin of the xenomorph is almost as ambiguous in that draft, opening up the possibilities for different scenarios.
Is the Xenomorph a natural life form? (maybe the Engineers found it and then used the Accelerant / Scarabs to create the xeno-like creatures. Or even they could have used some ancestral biomechanical monster as raw material to create the Black Goo)
Or perhaps it's the other way, the xeno-like creatures were first, and later the Xenomorph was created by the Engineers / David.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NPCQ46TB6wI/UCVVh-cTkTI/AAAAAAAALDA/G0SzoK5j5so/s400/Prometheus+-+Sala+-+Mural.jpg
But what is even more interesting...
Who created the black goo? It was an invention of the Engineers, or someone else? (BTW, when I say "someone else", I'm not thinking about the "True Space Jockeys", since I've already accepted that the Engineers are the Jockeys, but I'm dreaming about something different and new).
Anyway, I am aware that this kind of questions will be never answered in the form of film. It is not necessary, but hey! one can dream. After all, Engineers technology is worthy of being explored in some way.
I like that the possibility of there being other "things" out there that are hinted at in Prometheus and Covenant but that we will never get to see. It keeps the mystery alive and its creepier not knowing exactly the origin of the "Alien DNA". We instead get to see the manipulation of the DNA and how it has affected the Engineers and now Humanity.
what if the xenomorph is the most ancient species and the space jockey arrived after the xenomorph
they had no idea where they came from either but engineered their life source/blood into the black goo
isn't that the creepiest idea- that the alien existed before everything else
Quote from: david8 on Dec 09, 2017, 10:42:56 PM
what if the xenomorph is the most ancient species and the space jockey arrived after the xenomorph
they had no idea where they came from either but engineered their life source/blood into the black goo
isn't that the creepiest idea- that the alien existed before everything else
Going by its physical appearance, it appears it adopted mechanical/technical traits within its visual form. This technology or mechanical components would have to already exist, suggesting it was adopting another species mechanical accomplishments.
On the other side of the coin, just the opposite, perhaps another species got the idea of mechanical components from the physical traits of your ancient xenomorphs.
i should have specified that i'm not saying the xenomorph in alien is the ancient version, i'm contemplating if we still haven't seen that yet
Quote from: david8 on Dec 09, 2017, 11:11:25 PM
i should have specified that i'm not saying the xenomorph in alien is the ancient version, i'm contemplating if we still haven't seen that yet
I would go with that we have yet to see the original, and I don't think we ever will. I would say whatever was on LV-426 is close to the original creature but that all depends on what happens in the next film.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Dec 09, 2017, 10:53:27 PM
Quote from: david8 on Dec 09, 2017, 10:42:56 PM
what if the xenomorph is the most ancient species and the space jockey arrived after the xenomorph
they had no idea where they came from either but engineered their life source/blood into the black goo
isn't that the creepiest idea- that the alien existed before everything else
Going by its physical appearance, it appears it adopted mechanical/technical traits within its visual form. This technology or mechanical components would have to already exist, suggesting it was adopting another species mechanical accomplishments.
On the other side of the coin, just the opposite, perhaps another species got the idea of mechanical components from the physical traits of your ancient xenomorphs.
I'm pretty sure the difference in look is purely aesthetic design. Giger designed the original one, and thus it was very much in line with his artwork. The one in Covenant was probably made more organic to make it more fresh.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 09, 2017, 11:28:46 PM
I'm pretty sure the difference in look is purely aesthetic design. Giger designed the original one, and thus it was very much in line with his artwork.
That goes without saying, I'm pretty sure most here know the "out of story" reason why the creature looks the way it does. But david8 was sharing his "in story" theories, hence my addition of in-story speculation.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Dec 10, 2017, 12:08:10 AM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 09, 2017, 11:28:46 PM
I'm pretty sure the difference in look is purely aesthetic design. Giger designed the original one, and thus it was very much in line with his artwork.
That goes without saying, I'm pretty sure most here know the "out of story" reason why the creature looks the way it does. But david8 was sharing his "in story" theories, hence my addition of in-story speculation.
Right. I remember some posts being quite bent on them being distinct entities though. Also, personally I'd prefer if the Xeno was something that had been created, either by the engineers or by David, taking a page from the Shoggoths from At the Mountains of Madness.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 10, 2017, 12:34:41 AM
Also, personally I'd prefer if the Xeno was something that had been created, either by the engineers or by David
Same here. Seeing the hydraulic-ish tubing embedded in the creature way back in 79, I immediately pondered on what kind of experiments conducted by someone or something, has this creature been through. I imagined, at one time the tubes were externally attached. As years of tinkering progressed, the experimental creatures eventually merged the tubing into their physical form.
out of interest, why do you prefer that the alien is an engineered creature?
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Dec 10, 2017, 12:44:18 AM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 10, 2017, 12:34:41 AM
Also, personally I'd prefer if the Xeno was something that had been created, either by the engineers or by David
Same here. Seeing the hydraulic-ish tubing embedded in the creature way back in 79, I immediately pondered on what kind of experiments conducted by someone or something, has this creature been through. I imagined, at one time the tubes were externally attached. As years of tinkering progressed, the experimental creatures eventually merged the tubing into their physical form.
Hard to read that without a mental image of Giger popping up in my head.
Quote from: david8 on Dec 10, 2017, 12:55:37 AM
out of interest, why do you prefer that the alien is an engineered creature?
For me, as I mentioned with the Shoggoth parallel, it adds a Lovecraftian feel.
Quote from: david8 on Dec 10, 2017, 12:55:37 AM
out of interest, why do you prefer that the alien is an engineered creature?
And for me.....Mainly because of the mechanical tubing. It's a technical visual, not an organic visual. It just seems too far fetched that an alien creature coincidentally evolved a very familiar human designed-like mechanical visual within its physical form.
I still believe the Xenomorph is the more efficient species. If the crew of the Covenant would have worn helmets or masks, there wouldn't be any exposure of alien bacteria to the crew. The facehugger on the other hand is fast, relentless and very powerfull (it breaks Kane's helmet).The alien itself has a strong exoskeleton, secondary jaws, and because of it's elongated skull I think it's more intelligent as well. So it's more deadly than a neomorph to my mind.
About the acid melting Walter's hand, I have an idea of some sort: David literally punched the neomorph, but it grabbed him with his teeth. Maybe the Neomorph got injured somewhat, and maybe it has lost one of it's teeth, causing Walter's hand to melt :) No seriously, I think Walter hurt the neomorph somehow, causing it to bleed acid.
The motes were microscopic. Who's to say they couldn't get in the seal of a spacesuit?
Doesn't that somehow defeat the purpose of it being a space suit then?
It would. But who could predict the motes behaviour or indeed existence? They actively seek out hosts.
No one I guess, but I think a facehugger is far more terrifying than microscopic spores. With the right technology they could be dealt with quite easily I think.
Absolutely a hugger is more terrifying on base level.
But you can shoot a facehugger.
They're both pretty damn awful.
In either case I still think it would have been more effective, scene-wise, had the expedition been wearing some kind of hazmat, and we witnessed the spores penetrating the material somehow. Like watching them burrow between the fibers like a rat under a door. Up the intelligence of the human characters, and make the spores more terrifying.
I wonder if they had no suits in the film because they needed a way for the spores to infect them. The no suits or helmet thing didn't bother me though, but seeing the spores penetrating through a suit would've been an easy solution. They could've even done something simple like have Ledward take off his helmet to have a smoke - which is still stupid, but the dude needs a smoke!
Quote from: PsyKore on Dec 12, 2017, 03:00:29 AM
I wonder if they had no suits in the film because they needed a way for the spores to infect them. The no suits or helmet thing didn't bother me though, but seeing the spores penetrating through a suit would've been an easy solution. They could've even done something simple like have Ledward take off his helmet to have a smoke - which is still stupid, but the dude needs a smoke!
Obvious one I've mentioned before is that they just didn't want a large chunk of the movie with actors acting inside space suits. Funnily enough the character development was pretty below par anyway, but I'd say that's a good reason.
In Prometheus they did the same thing with the atmosphere inside. It would be a difficult experience for both the viewer and the actors just prancing about in space suits.
No doubt for someone to come along and say "it's safe guys" anyway.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 12, 2017, 08:13:10 AM
Quote from: PsyKore on Dec 12, 2017, 03:00:29 AM
I wonder if they had no suits in the film because they needed a way for the spores to infect them. The no suits or helmet thing didn't bother me though, but seeing the spores penetrating through a suit would've been an easy solution. They could've even done something simple like have Ledward take off his helmet to have a smoke - which is still stupid, but the dude needs a smoke!
Obvious one I've mentioned before is that they just didn't want a large chunk of the movie with actors acting inside space suits. Funnily enough the character development was pretty below par anyway, but I'd say that's a good reason.
In Prometheus they did the same thing with the atmosphere inside. It would be a difficult experience for both the viewer and the actors just prancing about in space suits.
No doubt for someone to come along and say "it's safe guys" anyway.
This is exactly the reason. Its just so the audience can easily recognize and relate to the characters.
That and even 30 years after Alien, the helmets on Prometheus were still burdensome.
Quote from: PsyKore on Dec 12, 2017, 03:00:29 AM
I wonder if they had no suits in the film because they needed a way for the spores to infect them. The no suits or helmet thing didn't bother me though, but seeing the spores penetrating through a suit would've been an easy solution. They could've even done something simple like have Ledward take off his helmet to have a smoke - which is still stupid, but the dude needs a smoke!
Or alternatively, the movie was on a tight budget and having everybody wear an expensive suit would've hampered its production.
There were no suits in Aliens and it worked perfectly well.
**sets trap for Scorpio
Quote from: Highland on Dec 12, 2017, 12:13:37 PM
There were no suits in Aliens and it worked perfectly well.
**sets trap for Scorpio
Better get your pulse rifle ready
Quote from: Highland on Dec 12, 2017, 12:13:37 PM
There were no suits in Aliens and it worked perfectly well.
**sets trap for Scorpio
:laugh:
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 12, 2017, 11:16:00 AM
Or alternatively, the movie was on a tight budget and having everybody wear an expensive suit would've hampered its production.
Covenant was on a tight budget?
They already have space suits. It's not like it would have cost the much to get some basic hazmat garments and gas masks.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 12, 2017, 11:16:00 AM
Or alternatively, the movie was on a tight budget and having everybody wear an expensive suit would've hampered its production.
You mean the same expensive suits the actors wear in both earlier and later scenes in the exact same film? Maybe those are like, James Bond space suits, that self-destruct after exposure to a camera. That's why they couldn't have worn those suits again after shooting the sail repair and final hanger battle scenes.
Yeah, the only reason they don't wear space suits when exploring the planet is cause if they were to behave like reasonable people there'd be no movie.
Quote from: skhellter on Nov 29, 2017, 01:04:11 PM
The Neomorph's reproduction IS more efficient, yes..
but
The FaceHugger's modus operandi reflects David's "rapey" attitude towards humans.
It can be seen as a kind of signature and an "f u" to humanity from David.
The "motes" are deadly.. but the facehuggers are deadly AND humilliating.
And that seems to be David's goal, really.
+ the xeno's are a LOT tougher than the neomorphs, as has been said already.
110% agree with ya here. That's the entire point of the Xeno; to not only murder every single human, but ensure they are being raped and terrified to the Nth degree driven to madness right before the Jungian shadow inside us all bursts free of it's human prison and at last becomes the Omega to our Alpha. It's really just as simple as that in my opinion, and I've never ever seen anything such as this done before in fiction; it's the most terrifying thing I know since Covenant came out and my eyes were open to what Scott is doing with the whole A.I. thing being against all of nature and wanting the rebel Paradise Lost style. Like, David literally made demons tailored to human beings, humanities own son; somehow that's way more terrifying than some 12,000,000 year old elephant space jockey, some ancient Lovecraftian tentacle monster, or even the Engineers themselves. Engineers saw the error in their ways I believe and they rebelled against their tech and A.I. and compartmentalized it only for specific tasks in favor of religion, farming, reconnecting to each other in real conversations and just naturally evolving the way they did before. They in many ways are smarter and more stable than us, take a look at their city and all the pillar statues surrounding the hangar in the center; it's the archetypes of the psyche and they understood balance must be maintained inside the mind; unlike humans. They KNEW they effing KNEW that if they didn't "abandon the wolf" a Decon or Neomorph thing would run rampant eventually, the Xenochrist mural imo was a warning to what lurks in the back of every intelligent being and exactly what David now embodies, pure rape and disgusted resentment for all good things.
Quote from: Nerium on Dec 14, 2017, 03:36:11 AM
Quote from: skhellter on Nov 29, 2017, 01:04:11 PM
The Neomorph's reproduction IS more efficient, yes..
but
The FaceHugger's modus operandi reflects David's "rapey" attitude towards humans.
It can be seen as a kind of signature and an "f u" to humanity from David.
The "motes" are deadly.. but the facehuggers are deadly AND humilliating.
And that seems to be David's goal, really.
+ the xeno's are a LOT tougher than the neomorphs, as has been said already.
110% agree with ya here. That's the entire point of the Xeno; to not only murder every single human, but ensure they are being raped and terrified to the Nth degree driven to madness right before the Jungian shadow inside us all bursts free of it's human prison and at last becomes the Omega to our Alpha. It's really just as simple as that in my opinion, and I've never ever seen anything such as this done before in fiction; it's the most terrifying thing I know since Covenant came out and my eyes were open to what Scott is doing with the whole A.I. thing being against all of nature and wanting the rebel Paradise Lost style. Like, David literally made demons tailored to human beings, humanities own son; somehow that's way more terrifying than some 12,000,000 year old elephant space jockey, some ancient Lovecraftian tentacle monster, or even the Engineers themselves. Engineers saw the error in their ways I believe and they rebelled against their tech and A.I. and compartmentalized it only for specific tasks in favor of religion, farming, reconnecting to each other in real conversations and just naturally evolving the way they did before. They in many ways are smarter and more stable than us, take a look at their city and all the pillar statues surrounding the hangar in the center; it's the archetypes of the psyche and they understood balance must be maintained inside the mind; unlike humans. They KNEW they effing KNEW that if they didn't "abandon the wolf" a Decon or Neomorph thing would run rampant eventually, the Xenochrist mural imo was a warning to what lurks in the back of every intelligent being and exactly what David now embodies, pure rape and disgusted resentment for all good things.
Ya, it's perfect to David but very uncomfortable to us.
Quote from: asil on Dec 14, 2017, 04:31:49 AM
Quote from: Nerium on Dec 14, 2017, 03:36:11 AM
Quote from: skhellter on Nov 29, 2017, 01:04:11 PM
The Neomorph's reproduction IS more efficient, yes..
but
The FaceHugger's modus operandi reflects David's "rapey" attitude towards humans.
It can be seen as a kind of signature and an "f u" to humanity from David.
The "motes" are deadly.. but the facehuggers are deadly AND humilliating.
And that seems to be David's goal, really.
+ the xeno's are a LOT tougher than the neomorphs, as has been said already.
110% agree with ya here. That's the entire point of the Xeno; to not only murder every single human, but ensure they are being raped and terrified to the Nth degree driven to madness right before the Jungian shadow inside us all bursts free of it's human prison and at last becomes the Omega to our Alpha. It's really just as simple as that in my opinion, and I've never ever seen anything such as this done before in fiction; it's the most terrifying thing I know since Covenant came out and my eyes were open to what Scott is doing with the whole A.I. thing being against all of nature and wanting the rebel Paradise Lost style. Like, David literally made demons tailored to human beings, humanities own son; somehow that's way more terrifying than some 12,000,000 year old elephant space jockey, some ancient Lovecraftian tentacle monster, or even the Engineers themselves. Engineers saw the error in their ways I believe and they rebelled against their tech and A.I. and compartmentalized it only for specific tasks in favor of religion, farming, reconnecting to each other in real conversations and just naturally evolving the way they did before. They in many ways are smarter and more stable than us, take a look at their city and all the pillar statues surrounding the hangar in the center; it's the archetypes of the psyche and they understood balance must be maintained inside the mind; unlike humans. They KNEW they effing KNEW that if they didn't "abandon the wolf" a Decon or Neomorph thing would run rampant eventually, the Xenochrist mural imo was a warning to what lurks in the back of every intelligent being and exactly what David now embodies, pure rape and disgusted resentment for all good things.
Ya, it's perfect to David but very uncomfortable to us.
The Facehuggers (versions of Facehuggers) existed much before the events of Covenant. Its an imminent result of mutation of sexual reproduction by Black goo.
David simply made his version of it (using flies & further hybridization).
Quote from: Nerium on Dec 14, 2017, 03:36:11 AM
Quote from: skhellter on Nov 29, 2017, 01:04:11 PM
The Neomorph's reproduction IS more efficient, yes..
but
The FaceHugger's modus operandi reflects David's "rapey" attitude towards humans.
It can be seen as a kind of signature and an "f u" to humanity from David.
The "motes" are deadly.. but the facehuggers are deadly AND humilliating.
And that seems to be David's goal, really.
+ the xeno's are a LOT tougher than the neomorphs, as has been said already.
110% agree with ya here. That's the entire point of the Xeno; to not only murder every single human, but ensure they are being raped and terrified to the Nth degree driven to madness right before the Jungian shadow inside us all bursts free of it's human prison and at last becomes the Omega to our Alpha. It's really just as simple as that in my opinion, and I've never ever seen anything such as this done before in fiction; it's the most terrifying thing I know since Covenant came out and my eyes were open to what Scott is doing with the whole A.I. thing being against all of nature and wanting the rebel Paradise Lost style. Like, David literally made demons tailored to human beings, humanities own son; somehow that's way more terrifying than some 12,000,000 year old elephant space jockey, some ancient Lovecraftian tentacle monster, or even the Engineers themselves. Engineers saw the error in their ways I believe and they rebelled against their tech and A.I. and compartmentalized it only for specific tasks in favor of religion, farming, reconnecting to each other in real conversations and just naturally evolving the way they did before. They in many ways are smarter and more stable than us, take a look at their city and all the pillar statues surrounding the hangar in the center; it's the archetypes of the psyche and they understood balance must be maintained inside the mind; unlike humans. They KNEW they effing KNEW that if they didn't "abandon the wolf" a Decon or Neomorph thing would run rampant eventually, the Xenochrist mural imo was a warning to what lurks in the back of every intelligent being and exactly what David now embodies, pure rape and disgusted resentment for all good things.
I really like this interpretation, seems fitting. I just hope the themes are played out well if we see Scott's sequel and not abandoned. Tie things up neatly.