Re: ALIEN: Horror or Sci-fi?

Started by SiL, Oct 01, 2024, 07:36:59 AM

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Re: ALIEN: Horror or Sci-fi? (Read 6,659 times)

SiL

SiL

This conversation has flared up in an unrelated thread so to keep things neat, here's its own thread.

For anyone not playing along at home, the question is this: is ALIEN a horror movie with sci-fi dressing, a sci-fi with horror dressing, or a true blend of the two genres?

There's no arguing that ALIEN, as it exists, is a sci-fi horror movie. It's in space, on a spaceship, with alien worlds and androids and motion trackers.

But how important is the science in this fiction?

My argument, and that of others such as author Steve Perry, is that ALIEN is primarily a horror movie, with the science fiction aspect being used pretty much just for dressing and aesthetics.

The core dramatic conflict of the movie - an unsuspecting crew fighting for their lives against a killer monster - is a horror story first and foremost. The dramatic beats that drive the story, as well as the themes, could easily be transposed to a story set on the open ocean in present day.

While ALIEN does make good use of its science fiction setting, it's typically not essential to the plot.

For example, Ash's status as an Android is a shocking surprise, but has no functional bearing on the story - what does, is his role of saboteur. Yet the trope of the mad scientist trying to protect the monster predates ALIEN by many decades, played by human agents.

Likewise the threat of acid blood is just as worrying to a vessel travelling the Atlantic Ocean as it is to a spaceship in the void.

And we know that finding the Alien aboard a human vessel doesn't change the plot, because early drafts of the script did exactly this - and the story plays out the same.

We can remove the sci-fi from ALIEN and retain a clearly recognisable form of the story, but we can't remove the horror. Doing so would require us to write an entirely new central dramatic conflict, which means an entirely new story.

Do you think this is a hot take or do you find this painfully obvious? Let's roll.
M

TheDerelict

TheDerelict

#1
Horror with a space fiction dressing. Not much real science in it.

BeeHooKoo

BeeHooKoo

#2
The answer is easy: the film Alien (1979) is 100% both, it is a sci-fi film and a horror film. It can't be either without the plot or character of the film changing dramatically.

Alien; xenomorph, facehugger, chestburster, acid blood, etc. are science fiction in themselves. Sure, we can argue whether it's more fantasy or sci-fi, but under the general sci-fi definition extraterrestrial life is defined, which includes Alien in all its forms.

More about "is Alien monster sci-fi or fantasy", the answer is not simple. The definition and difference between these two genres has been and is still being debated around the world. The one common divider between two genres is to answer the question: would monster as an organism be possible to exist under any recognized conditions? ..if the answer is yes, it's science fiction, if not, it's fantasy. So, for example, if someone claims that the Alien monster is an insect, Alien monster is 100% sci-fi. However, as it turned out earlier, Alien monster already falls under the definition of "extraterrestrial life", so it is sci-fi.

The only way that alien turns into a non-sci-fi movie is to replace the Alien monster with some creature found on Earth, but then it's not really an "Alien" movie anymore.

The horror elements of the film Alien can be easily removed so that the Nostromo crew does not experience anything during the film that creates feelings of horror in the viewer. But then again, it's not really an "Alien" movie anymore.

SiL

SiL

#3
Quote from: BeeHooKoo on Oct 01, 2024, 08:25:44 AMAlien; xenomorph, facehugger, chestburster, acid blood, etc. are science fiction in themselves.
Why is the Alien's lifecycle and biology inherently sci-fi compared to any of a thousand other fantastical monsters that we don't consider science fiction?

What difference does it make if the creature is found on a derelict ship adrift at sea, with the same level of explanation as to how it got there as we get in the movie? In terms of story, what actually changes?

BeeHooKoo

BeeHooKoo

#4
Quote from: SiL on Oct 01, 2024, 08:29:53 AMWhy is the Alien's lifecycle and biology inherently sci-fi compared to any of a thousand other fantastical monsters that we don't consider science fiction?
Who says thousands of monster movies aren't sci-fi? ..you. In general terms, Alien/Extraterrestrials and monster's (yes, these are two different genres) are classified under sci-fi in movies.

Quote from: SiL on Oct 01, 2024, 08:29:53 AMWhat difference does it make if the creature is found on a derelict ship adrift at sea, with the same level of explanation as to how it got there as we get in the movie? In terms of story, what actually changes?
The story doesn't change, but since the creature is not recognized as a scientifically recognized organism on Earth, the film would still be science fiction, like the film Abyss (1989), which is officially a science fiction film.

SiL

SiL

#5
Quote from: BeeHooKoo on Oct 01, 2024, 09:33:26 AMThe story doesn't change, but since the creature is not recognized as a scientifically recognized organism on Earth, the film would still be science fiction
Vampires aren't scientifically recognised organisms on Earth, we don't call Dracula sci-fi (and I'm clearly referring to the humanoid vampires of legend, not bats or vampiric animals).

The same goes with werewolves, or any number of folk monsters.

In fact vampires are a perfect analogy. You can tell a vampire story from a science fiction perspective, but a vampire does not necessarily make something science fiction.

BigDaddyJohn

BigDaddyJohn

#6
I'd say it's horror with sci-fi dressing.

Olde

Olde

#7
It's sci-forror.

Elmazalman

Elmazalman

#8
Quote from: SiL on Oct 01, 2024, 09:50:17 AMVampires aren't scientifically recognised organisms on Earth, we don't call Dracula sci-fi (and I'm clearly referring to the humanoid vampires of legend, not bats or vampiric animals).

The same goes with werewolves, or any number of folk monsters.

In fact vampires are a perfect analogy. You can tell a vampire story from a science fiction perspective, but a vampire does not necessarily make something science fiction.

Interestingly enough, in the 1979 Salem's Lot mini-series, Ben Mears theorised that the main vampire, Barlow, was an alien that had drained other planets before moving to Earth.


Acid_Reign161

Acid_Reign161

#9
'Alien' is sci-fi horror through and through, the perfect blend of both.

The creature itself *could* work in a non science fiction setting, portrayed in a sort of Lovcraftian sort of way (and in many ways, Alien 3 dials back the sci-fi aesthetic to give a glimpse of what that may look like).

But *would* it ever truly be separate from sci-fi? Taking it away from space and setting it on a boat at sea, as per the example given.. if you found a cave at the bottom of the sea with an unknown organism with a hole in its chest.. would that not still come under science fiction, being biological as opposed to supernatural? (The movie 'Underwater' comes to mind which is also sci-fi horror). Even if we take away the creature, and replace it with technology, you get 'Saturn 3' or 'Death Machine' - heavily sci-fi but still undoubtedly horror; ie - being stalked by a machine.

I mean, for me, Alien is more than just the monster... we could say Romero's 'Dawn of the Dead'(1978) is horror, yet the game 'Resident Evil' clearly inspired by such movies would be sci-fi horror due to the nature of the virus /bio weapon elements... in this way, can we ever truly separate alien from the science?

What I would agree on, is that it is *more* horror than science fiction, as you *can* remove the sci-fi elements and create the same vibe of movie, but you can't remove the horror element and create the same film.

SiL

SiL

#10
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Oct 01, 2024, 11:19:42 AMif you found a cave at the bottom of the sea with an unknown organism with a hole in its chest.. would that not still come under science fiction, being biological as opposed to supernatural?
How is it different to finding a body drained of blood with two puncture marks in its neck?

Acid_Reign161

Acid_Reign161

#11
Quote from: SiL on Oct 01, 2024, 11:28:32 AM
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Oct 01, 2024, 11:19:42 AMif you found a cave at the bottom of the sea with an unknown organism with a hole in its chest.. would that not still come under science fiction, being biological as opposed to supernatural?
How is it different to finding a body drained of blood with two puncture marks in its neck?

But even Vampire movies can come under scrutiny depending upon whether the movie portrays them as Supernatural or biological. Nobody would ever consider, say, Christopher Lee's portrayal of Dracula as science fiction (being repelled/burned by a holy cross) - same with Zombie movies in Italian horror (such as City of the Living Dead, where the gates of Hell are opened by a priest hanging himself) vs Resident Evil (a virus developed in a lab as a bioweapon escapes and turns people into zombies)... I feel its not the monster itself which determines the genre, but rather, how it is presented.

*Could* Alien be detached from sci-fi? Sure.. find the 'spawn' in an ancient crypt, give it 'old ones' vibes... but as presented; found on a ship of an unknown species, the heavy biological analysis of the organism, the sub plot of wanting it as a bio weapon... you'd have to change more than just the setting to detach it (in my opinion).

SiL

SiL

#12
Quote from: Acid_Reign161 on Oct 01, 2024, 12:07:30 PM]the heavy biological analysis of the organism, the sub plot of wanting it as a bio weapon... you'd have to change more than just the setting to detach it (in my opinion).
Analysing the thing doesn't make the story inherently sci-fi any more than Dr Loomis analysing Michael Myers makes Halloween a sci-fi. What the Company wants the Alien for is irrelevant to the plot; what matters is that they want it, and are willing to sacrifice the crew to get it.

BigDaddyJohn

BigDaddyJohn

#13
You could still have the government wanting the creature if it was on a ship in the ocean. That doesn't change much indeed.

Acid_Reign161

Acid_Reign161

#14
On the whole, I mostly agree with you on this one 😊👍 (as I mentioned in my previous post, you can take away the sci-fi but you can't take away the horror).

But there's something about the creature itself in this case that I struggle with not considering it's science fiction elements.

How can I put it... if you presented your argument using 'Event Horizon' instead of Alien, I would have zero reservations... completely strip event horizon of a sci-fi setting, put it on a boat that disappeared in the Bermuda Triangle and reappeared, and all of its elements (going to hell and back) work and required no changes beyond setting. Literally change the exterior shots of space to on the sea, the scenes of Sam Neill with his eyes gouged to on the bridge of a boat/ship... nothing needs changing.

With Alien, you can't just change setting; you have to change the nature of 1; how/where it is found - you need to remove the jockey, or change it to an ancient Earth creature..which still comes under sci-fi... they can't be investigating a signal of unknown origin anymore... so then what? A distress call from another boat and the body of a person found? Right away, you've taken away something. 2; if it's not a biological Earth creature, and it's not from space (both sci-fi) then you are going the supernatural route, and no longer a creature grounded in reality (which Alien at least tried to do)... if you aren't in space, then you have the same issue John Carpenter's The Thing has; they can only set it in one location (you couldn't set the thing in an oil rig for example, as it simply escapes into the water and infects marine life, taking away the whole 'not letting it get to civilisation' - same with Alien, you aren't truly isolated for an organism if this kind without being in space)... by the time you've changed how and where the alien is discovered, made changes to account for why it's not truly isolated, made changes for why the company wants it... is it the same movie anymore? when you get to that stage, it's well past just changing the setting.. so why not just go the whole hog and replace the creature with a guy in a mask?

It's sci-fi whichever way you look at it without making changes. The horror element is stronger and has more pull than the sci-fi elements in terms of defining genre, but I don't think Alien can switch genres as easily as some other movies might, whilst maintaining the creature as we know it.

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