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Author Topic: Alien vs. Predator (Atari Jaguar) - Super Thread  (Read 13968 times)

Trash Queen
Apr 17, 2021, 03:18:10 PM
Reply #135 on: Apr 17, 2021, 03:18:10 PM
Does anyone think this will ever get ported to modern platforms then?


lost dragon
Apr 17, 2021, 03:42:33 PM
Reply #136 on: Apr 17, 2021, 03:42:33 PM
Does anyone think this will ever get ported to modern platforms then?

I think this was the closest it ever came to happening:

https://www.moddb.com/mods/jaguar-alien-vs-predator-doom/


The Jaguar original itself was heavily flawed, something Atari itself recognized at the time, cue the length of improvements pitched for the proposed Jaguar CD Special Edition.


It was blighted by being on a platform that was far too niche to be considered worthy of a commercial remaster for today's market


judge death
May 29, 2021, 02:35:46 AM
Reply #137 on: May 29, 2021, 02:35:46 AM
I guess I need to buy a jaguar to play this game or is it possible to play it on pc somehow?


SiL
May 29, 2021, 01:33:48 PM
Reply #138 on: May 29, 2021, 01:33:48 PM
There is an emulator and a ROM floating around.


Voodoo Magic
May 29, 2021, 11:03:08 PM
Reply #139 on: May 29, 2021, 11:03:08 PM
There's even an android mobile emulator out there that will run it.  :)


slimulis
May 30, 2021, 05:33:30 PM
Reply #140 on: May 30, 2021, 05:33:30 PM
Does anyone think this will ever get ported to modern platforms then?

I think this was the closest it ever came to happening:

https://www.moddb.com/mods/jaguar-alien-vs-predator-doom/


The Jaguar original itself was heavily flawed, something Atari itself recognized at the time, cue the length of improvements pitched for the proposed Jaguar CD Special Edition.


It was blighted by being on a platform that was far too niche to be considered worthy of a commercial remaster for today's market

I'm slightly hurt finding this thread and a link to moddb and no mention of my little project haha. I recreated all the levels from AvP jaguar. Still things missing like death, the motion tracker, predators, vent aliens. It all became too time consuming and a slog to work on by myself without ever having the possibility to turn a profit. But it was a nice project to work on to get my feet wet learning UE4 and code.

Needless to say I loved the original and played it a ton as a kid, still have it, but my jaguar is sadly dead.

Anyway, hi, I'm the creator of it, just doing bored and doing the rounds on google searches and came across this thread. Shameless self promotion goooo. :)

https://www.moddb.com/games/shane-ruetz


Trash Queen
Jun 08, 2021, 11:22:44 AM
Reply #141 on: Jun 08, 2021, 11:22:44 AM
That's awesome, I'd love to see it finished, some day.


lost dragon
Jul 12, 2021, 08:49:42 AM
Reply #142 on: Jul 12, 2021, 08:49:42 AM
Yeah, I feel this isn't so egregious. After 25 years it would be very easy for "We chose to use creepy ambience because we realised we couldn't use music" to turn into "we chose to use creepy ambience".

Jeff Minter of Llamasoft is the latest to pour very cold water on claims Andrew, now Jane Whittaker, gives regarding time on AVP and other claims.


Jane told Andrew Rosa on the Mastercast TV interview part one, that whilst at Sunnyvale, finishing off AVP for Atari (along with Mike Beaton), Jane had 2 legends there as well.


Jeff Minter was to one side, coding Tempest 2000 and there was John Carmack on the other side coding Wolfenstein 3D/Doom (Jane can't seem to remember exactly which).



The claim was put to Jeff, who kindly replied with:


"Hm, well T2K was pretty much all done in Wales, I used to upload builds to the Atari server in Sunnyvale using a pretty slow modem. I only went out to Sunnyvale with T2K for a few weeks of final test, IIRC for about 3 weeks before Xmas of 1993, then home for Xmas, and for a couple of weeks right after Xmas, finishing in Jan '94. Don't think I saw any of AvP at that time (I guess it would have been really early to see any of it anyway in Jan 1994). Don't recall seeing Carmack there either.

 

I *do* remember DOOM came out while I was in Sunnyvale pre-Xmas, and I couldn't wait to get T2K finished off so I could go back to Wales and do nothing but play DOOM for a month.
 

IIRC the next time I was in Sunnyvale was in June '94, I'd been supposed to go back there in May to work on VLM, but I got ill with pneumonia and couldn't fly until that had cleared up enough so I was delayed till June.

Bearing in mind Doom was coded by the TEAM at i.d in Texas (John Carmack, John Romero and Dave Taylor etc)...

I would wager Jane has been name dropping for effect there and that's backfired.


As have the claims of being a VP of Atari aged 19/20...


The Ancedote about using Sam Tramiel's personal coffee machine...


Points put to Sam who has publicly stated Andrew/Jane was never a VP of ANY department at Atari...


Sam himself had no coffee machine as he didn't drink coffee...


Jeff was kind enough to clear up another claim Jane made:


"That chap definitely seems to have his own unique views as to what went on back in the day.

 

I was somewhat surprised when one day on his Twitter he just randomly told the world that one of his mates had been a gameplay advisor to me when I was developing T2K."

 


https://atariage.com/forums/topic/306326-leonard-tramiel-exclusive-text%C2%A0interview-great-commodore-atari-insight/page/2/




These join the comments made by Steve Turner of Graftgold, regarding Jane taking credit for likes of ST Rainbow Islands (actually done by Andrew Braybrook and team), Ranarama, Morpheus (there were no conversions, it stayed a C64/128 exclusive), Magnetron and Steve detailed wha Jane actually did on Amstrad CPC Flying Shark and why Jane was fired from Graftgold.


Patrick Ketchum and misc Cyberdreams staff, including Mike Dawson.

Jane did not create the graphics for Amiga Dark Seed, was not asked by H. R GIGER to create the game, was not digitized for the main character.

Was never part of Cyberdreams, Jane's only connection to Dark Seed was a few days playtesting of the Amiga version whilst at Mirage.


Various Maelstrom staff  who strongly dispute Jane's Midwinter Origins/Chinese Restaurant claims.

Jane has since changed account to being involved with misc Amiga Flight Sims for MicroProse 🤔




Various Bullfrog staff who confirm Jane never had any involvement with Dungeon Keeper II


Misc Perceptions staff who say Power Crystal on the 3DO M2 was far from complete (Jane claims it was finished and reviewed, scored 100%...)


Misc Maxis staff who've never heard of a Jane/Andrew Whittaker, let alone such an individual doing any A. I work on any of The Sims titles.

Whilst it's far from uncommon for people to get confused trying to account for events over 20 years ago, get misquoted, that sadly isn't the case with Andrew /Jane Whittaker, who is currently using social media to act as the Jaguar AVP Guru..

I firmly believe a community should be given truthful, not fanciful accounts of game development.



Some of Andrew%Jane's past AVP Jaguar claims:


STS : I guess you must be tired with explaining the  same things  again but
please once again, would you be kind enough to tell us how you came to work
for ATARI on AvP ?

 ANDREW : Immediately  before AvP I had  worked  on a  project  called Darkseed
which did very well, especially in  the USA. That involved me working alongside
the designer of the "Alien" HR Giger to bring his  work to the computer screen.
When AvP came along, because of  the success of that  I was asked to design and
develop the AvP  experience. Giger  obviously  remembered me as  when the Alien
licence was taken by Atari I was approached by Giger, Atari and  Fox to develop
that licence for the Jaguar launch. It was a great opportunity to develop on an
exciting new  machine with  movies that I  really  loved. I studied  the movies
solid for many months before coming up with a  game design. My  aim was simple,
to recreate the  feeling and  atmosphere of the "Alien" movie. I wanted  people
jumping, feeling claustrophobic and have the fear of being hunted in an unknown
environment.
http://alive.atari.org/alive8/andreww.php

As anyone who's familiar with the games history or read/listened to any interview with likes of Purple Hampton or Jason Kingsley will know, Rebellion were awarded the contract by Atari to develop AVP, Andrew Whittaker joining Rebellion when they expanded the team and tasked with coding the games A. I routines and doing the Computer screens.


Jane's account of being approached by Fox/Giger/Atari is an utter nonsense, Rebellion openly advertised for staff in Edge magazine and that's why Andrew Whittaker doesn't appear in early AVP magazine Previews, only later ones.

Onto a seperate interview:

Pocket : What did you do exactly on Goldeneye ?
AW : A lot of the AI routines from AvP found their way there, and of course I was heavily involved creatively, as my job was to manage exact how James Bond was used in games.

#Complete and utter nonsense as anyone who's read or listened to a Making Of... feature on Goldeneye will be aware.

Rare hired Dr David Doak to handle the A. I Routines, which he wrote from scratch.




Pocket : What did you do on PC ?
AW : I left MGM for Electronic Arts, so got involved in a whole load of titles there, Dungeon Keeper, Theme park, Indestructibles, etc.


#The teams involved in both Dungeon Keeper 1+2 confirmed both titles had shipped before Jane even joined Bullfrog.


Jane in the Retrogamer Magazine Interview claims involvement in Playstation 2 Theme Park World (but isnt listed in the credits)


Jane DID head up the third and final attempt to salvage My Indestructible Super Team/The Indestructibles, but it was a much dumber game than the original and was canned.

Pocket : Did you work on the first PC sequel of AVP too ?
AW : Yes I did, although most of the avp algorithms I put into goldeneye on the N64.


#Producer Dave Stalker confirmed game was built from scratch for the PC, none of the Jaguar code used.

Jane never returned to Rebellion to do any work on PC AVP.




http://mleguludec.free.fr/dossiers/interview/jc_interview_Andrew_Wittaker.htm






This is the account of AVP Jane now gives:

"I was incredibly lucky to have been asked to be the gameplay and AI programmer of Alien Vs Predator for the Atari Jaguar. Working with Mike Beaton, who wrote the groundbreaking 3D engine that changed the first person shooter world, the incredible producer James "Purple" Hampton, Lance Lewis and a host of talented individuals whom I consider to be the best team in the business.

Industry pundits and publications regularly cite my artificial intelligence and gameplay programming for the game as breaking new ground in technology. The game is still cited today as one of the finest movie spin-offs ever made, revered by fans as capturing the essence of the iconic movies.

The game would go on to be one of the bestselling Atari games of all time, spawning a host of sequels and spin-offs. Our game would even go on to feature in the Guinness Book of Records. My involvement as programmer has become a major part of my life, being classed by fans as being part of the “Alien” franchise family, with regular invites to conventions and being featured in publications about the history of the franchise. We never realised at the time, we would be making one of the most iconic games ever made!"





https://www.janewhittaker.com/atari


You'll notice coder Mike Pooler isn't credited for the additional coding he did...

I'd hope he's among the uncredited talented individuals...

The AVP Engine is described as a 3D Engine, it's not, it's of a similar type to Doom/Wolfenstein... A 2.5 D engine, flat planes, no changes in elevation, all corners are at 90 angles.


This is important as Jane has talked of developing a version of AVP with the Xenomorphs scaling the walls, but this being cut due to memory restrictions on the cartridge Atari would allow.

The existing AVP Engine is physically incapable of doing this, plus the games physics engine would of needed to be far more powerful and the A. I codes as they are, crippled the frame rate and the pathfinding A. I is so limited, Aliens get stuck behind objects in the environment.

Atari DID ask for a new game engine for the proposed AVP S. E for the Jaguar CD and for it to include smarter A. I, the ability for the Aliens to run along all surfaces of the base (walks, floors, Ceilings etc)


See the AVP CD enhancements document, Atari Corp February 1995.

Jane has told the Waffling Taylor's in a recent podcast interview, he showed Purple Hampton a joke mode where he had the Aliens Ballet Dancing.. Spinning and pirouetting around...

Physically impossible, the Engine doesn't render the creatures as 3D models, no side view.



Later AVP games by Rebellion and Monolith were not sequels.

Rebellion's PC original used concepts they wanted to use in Jaguar AVP but were unable to use.


Monolith AVP II has no connection to the Jaguar title.

The PSP game by Rebellion is based on the film.


Opinion is split as to which was the best selling Jaguar title..

Whittaker and Jason Kingsley of Rebellion say AVP, Jeff Minter says Tempest 2000..but there are no confirmed sales figures for either title, just estimates and talk of market penetration.

Not sure about the models they would’ve used. I haven’t seen anything of that scale really from that era. There’s a great video on YouTube where the game’s producer James Hampton gives a pretty good account of the process of making the game. It includes a segment about how they had to repeatedly buy and ship models of the Queen because UK customs would  frequently seize her under pornography legislation! She almost didn’t make it into the game for this reason. He eventually “smuggled” it in via a local model shop in the US and posted it himself. There are several pictures of this model in the video but I can’t make out the brand name on the box.

Link below




In the interest of balance having pointed out the dangers of going on what Jane Whittaker likes to tell people about AVP..

Jason Kingsley, Rebellion, talking to Retrogamer Magazine:


RG:The choice of 3 characters added a lot of to the games depth-were you pleased how it turned out?

JASON:Yes, that was specifically mine and Chris's idea. It was a very early instance of a game allowing you to play the bad guys, as it were, as well as the good guys. So yes, it's something we're very happy with.

As a game mechanic it really complicated things for us, because effectively we had to make 3 different games instead of 1,so it really was an unusual, innovative game.


Now given Purple Hampton claims the idea for 3 seperate camapains was HIS...

🤔


Jason also glosses over the mediocre reviews their first game, Eye Of The Storm recieved.



Jason had years earlier told Game Pro magazine, he'd coded Star Raiders on the Atari 400/800...


You wish Jason, that was Doug Neubauer.



Why folks from the industry can't simply be content with the roles they had on flagship titles and thus need to exaggerate and fabricate stories, I will never know.

Just take claims by all the surviving AVP teams with a punch of salt, not face value.


Forwarding the Stalking The Jaguar Videogames Magazine Interview with Purple Hampton, to site mods, hopefully they can add it to the achieves.

« Last Edit: Jul 12, 2021, 10:16:36 AM by lost dragon »

molasar
Jul 17, 2021, 02:11:00 PM
Reply #143 on: Jul 17, 2021, 02:11:00 PM
More screenshots from AvP prototype on PS1. In this iteration they abandoned digitized sprites in favor of polygons. I wonder if E3'97 version had already polygonal characters.



« Last Edit: Jul 18, 2021, 05:59:58 AM by molasar »

lost dragon
Jul 26, 2021, 08:45:49 AM
Reply #144 on: Jul 26, 2021, 08:45:49 AM
Dan McNamee (Atari) lead tester on AVP backs up Purple Hamptons with the claim it was the Atari Team, not Jason Kingsley and anyone at Rebellion, who came up with the concept of 3 seperate campaigns and wanted each species to play differently.


Dan talks of the ability for the Marine to be able to run and other nifty stuff, being dropped because the team simply ran out of time.

Jane Whittaker has always stated features were dropped due to lack of space on the cartridge, game really needed to be on CD.

Though extra storage space wouldn't allowed for the supposed wall climbing Xenos, you'd need a much more advanced game engine and A. I routines than what Whittaker, Beaton and Pooler provided.

Jane Whittaker's original claim, made on 4-21-00 was that he had (on the source code at his home) a version of AVP in which the Predator grew tired from chasing the player, leant against a wall and said "I'm tired from all this running" and proceeds to light a cigarette.


Jane planned to release said code..


Over the years this story has changed to the Easter Egg making it into retail version and just needed a key press combo to unlock it, Jane not being sure if it made it into final code...

The Predator getting tired of killing other species off it's own back, going into a room, sitting down at a table and having a smoke, some times he claims having a pint.


We can expect a degree of confusion over the years, but the level of discrepancies shown, with the story getting exaggerated each time it's repeated, is a cause for concern.


Jane has never yet even shared his A. I routines, despite repeated promises.

And appears to be the only person ever to have witnessed the Easter Egg or Predator Net Gun or Wall Climbing Aliens.... 🤔

« Last Edit: Jul 26, 2021, 08:54:53 AM by lost dragon »

Ferengo
Aug 03, 2021, 11:38:38 AM
Reply #145 on: Aug 03, 2021, 11:38:38 AM
This is still one of my favourite games of all time. Top 10 for sure.

I remember a friend saying he got an Atari Jaguar and AVP for it. We went round to his and I was blown away by this game. You have to remember, this was on a console not a PC. So for the time this was amazing. The frame rate or lag didn't matter, there was nothing really to rival it.

Suffice to say I begged, borrowed and stole to be able to get one, ha ha. Am sure I got a discount on a used one at my local games shop. All I had for ages was Cybermorph until my friend decided to sell/trade me his AVP.

I never played much of the Alien or Predator stories, but I did play and complete the Marine one. That game, when playing in complete darkness, just the sound of the station humming, then all of a sudden an alien attacks you! Man, that scared the hell out of me, still does.

I loved how it added a bit to the lore. If you accessed the terminals it gave you information on what was going on and also other species of aliens (Not Xenomorphs). It even alluded that a facehugger to infect an animal as small as a cat.

Still love this game to this day. Even bought a Jaguar and the game during lockdown. Even going back to it all these years later I don't mind the issues it had. I can understand someone trying to play it now that never did back then. I did the same with Silent Hill and could not get around the graphics and control system, which I feel for some is the same sort of issues with this.

I truly would love to see them remaster this but due to the low sales, niche market the system had and the licensing I very much doubt it will ever happen (Officially). Glad I still have an original system and game to play it on.

Did anyone else ever complete it and what story was it on?


 

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