http://bloody-disgusting.com/news/3428092/saw-alien-covenant-scene-reveals-origin-xenomorphs/
QuoteOur own Trace Thurman is currently at SXSW, where a few select scenes from Ridley Scott's Alien: Covenant were shown off this past weekend. Trace is currently working on an article detailing the footage he saw, so you can expect to read that very soon. In the meantime, there's a super important reveal made in one of the scenes that we just had to let you know about.
If you want ZERO spoilers, proceed with caution.
Scott recently noted that prequel Alien: Covenant will reveal the true origin of the Xenomorph we first met back in 1979, and one of the clips shown at SXSW divulged that secret info ahead of the film's May release. At the end of Prometheus, we saw the birth of the "proto-Xenomorph" known as Deacon, but the origin of the actual Xenomorphs is tied directly to android David.
Here's a brief recap of the scene:
David (Michael Fassbender) is giving Christopher (Billy Crudup) a tour of his workshop, where he's been working on genetically engineering creatures of his own; he's become fascinated with these alien creatures in the wake of the events of Prometheus. David shows Christopher a handful of familiar-looking eggs that are part of his process, revealing that he needs a human host in order to complete their birth. That host, of course, is Christopher himself.
Yes, that means that android David is responsible for literally creating the Xenomorphs. Christopher will later be attacked by a Face Hugger and then give birth to a classic Xeno – footage from that very attack can be seen in the film's official trailer, corroborating this info.
Pretty crazy, eh?!
Katherine Waterston (Inherent Vice, Jobs, The Babysitters) stars with Michael Fassbender returning as Prometheus' android David (and Walter), with a crew that includes Demian Bichir and Danny McBride ("Eastbound and Down"), as well as Alex England (Gods of Egypt), Billy Crudup, Amy Seimetz (A Horrible Way to Die, "The Killing"), Jussie Smollett ("Empire"), Carmen Ejogo, and Callie Hernandez (Machete Kills). James Franco also has a role.
Bound for a remote planet on the far side of the galaxy, the crew of the colony ship Covenant discovers what they think is an uncharted paradise, but is actually a dark, dangerous world — whose sole inhabitant is the "synthetic" David (Michael Fassbender), survivor of the doomed Prometheus expedition
Alien: Covenant arrives in theaters on May 19, 2017.
Clearly screened as part of the fake version of Alien: Covenant to throw people off track.
If this (or something similar) turns out to be true I will be severely let down. I'll accept the AVP back story better than David being their creator.
Yeah, I'll always see the Aliens as ancient beasts that were created by a primordial alien civilisation and many have attempted to exploit them and failed ever since.
No way one android simply creates them. I think he is merely following the recipe for making the Aliens, a recipe that has been done before.
He's not their creator but a re-creator of that particular strain of Xenomorph in that localised area.
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Mar 13, 2017, 09:38:30 PM
If this (or something similar) turns out to be true I will be severely let down. I'll accept the AVP back story better than David being their creator.
Why is this some shock? It's been widely reported for months.
I still find it hard to be true, but nothing suggests otherwise :-\ Ridley acts like he is the sole creator of the franchise, i'm sure Dan o'Bannon and many others responsible for Alien would not approved this. It completely kills the alien in alien. The trailers look so shit that maybe this film won't be taken seriously and will be retconned in the future. I'm really unpleasantly surprised how many on avpgalaxy are cool with this.
He's not creating them. He's re-creating them. IMO.
^^That would be my save for it, too. But I doubt it's what the movie (or future movies) will suggest.
Quote from: FreeFacehugz on Mar 13, 2017, 10:02:51 PM
He's not creating them. He's re-creating them. IMO.
This is something some of the fans have made up to lessen the blow. There's a slim this could be true, but i doubt it.
"David shows Christopher a handful of familiar-looking eggs"
Well that cannot mean Xenomorph eggs, how can you possibly have a "hand full" of something thats half as tall as a human and easily shoulder width in diameter or more.
The only thing remotely egg like that Davide could have a "hand full" of are the pods that release the Neomorph spores.
So Davide is not creating Xenomorphs but the Neomorphs. That or this info is fake.
So how were the alien eggs created they would have to come from a queen?
I don't believe its fans just wishfully thinking / hoping as the alien clearly already exists.. remember the mural from Prometheus.
Yes it could be a pre existing protomorph in the mural but unless the biomech of the xeno is specifically developed by David, then he is just recreating or reactivating something pre-existing rather than 'inventing' something new
Quote from: wedgeg on Mar 13, 2017, 10:54:40 PM
So how were the alien eggs created they would have to come from a queen?
The Queen can be a mutation.
Quote from: wedgeg on Mar 13, 2017, 10:54:40 PM
So how were the alien eggs created they would have to come from a queen?
Exactly
Ridley is killing the franchise
He's doing a George Lucas.
The mural from Prometheus points to the xeno being around for a lot longer. David is obviously recreating them, maybe his experiments lead them to being more bio-mechanical.
Quote from: Vermillion on Mar 13, 2017, 11:02:23 PM
Quote from: wedgeg on Mar 13, 2017, 10:54:40 PM
So how were the alien eggs created they would have to come from a queen?
Exactly
Ridley is killing the franchise
He's doing a George Lucas.
Are all your posts hysterical?
The Island of Doctor Moreau, Alien style!
Through genetic engineering and controlled breeding of the Neomorphs, David creates, (with a little help from poor old Oram) the Protomorph.
What a convoluted family tree:
Mural Xeno to black goo.
Black goo to Hammerpede, Trilobite, Fifield monster and spores.
Trilobite to Deacon.
Spores to Neomorphs.
Neomorphs to Protomorphs.
Protomorphs to Xenomorphs.
Harry Potter didn't need his wand, he just needed some black goo and degree in genetic engineering.
i am all for david's creation being a new version of something ancient, otherwise the mural makes no sense at all
This is sounding less and less plausible.
We already have a mural show that xenos existed already and I've already pointed out its physically impossible to have a handful of xeno eggs.
i'm interested to see how david explains the eggs. how can he create them?
Whatever David is doing it has to be forced evolution using the GOO as seen in the screen cap of the den with an open ampule and alien up above them. It can't be naturally but all the while we don't know how natural the eggs were made in the first place. Everything after Aliens is somewhat natural evolution.
Quote from: reecebomb on Mar 13, 2017, 09:58:11 PM
I still find it hard to be true, but nothing suggests otherwise :-\ Ridley acts like he is the sole creator of the franchise, i'm sure Dan o'Bannon and many others responsible for Alien would not approved this. It completely kills the alien in alien. The trailers look so shit that maybe this film won't be taken seriously and will be retconned in the future. I'm really unpleasantly surprised how many on avpgalaxy are cool with this.
I defo Aint cool with it.
So where did the eggs on the derelict come from ?? And when did it crash?
Where does the huggers come from? To place inside eggs?
This Aint cool !
Quote from: Neomorph on Mar 13, 2017, 10:50:44 PM
"David shows Christopher a handful of familiar-looking eggs"
Well that cannot mean Xenomorph eggs, how can you possibly have a "hand full" of something thats half as tall as a human and easily shoulder width in diameter or more.
The only thing remotely egg like that Davide could have a "hand full" of are the pods that release the Neomorph spores.
So Davide is not creating Xenomorphs but the Neomorphs. That or this info is fake.
Quote from: Neomorph on Mar 13, 2017, 11:44:37 PM
This is sounding less and less plausible.
We already have a mural show that xenos existed already and I've already pointed out its physically impossible to have a handful of xeno eggs.
It's shown in the trailer. They are in fact xeno or Alien eggs.
Quote from: Predaker on Mar 14, 2017, 12:15:30 AM
Quote from: Neomorph on Mar 13, 2017, 10:50:44 PM
"David shows Christopher a handful of familiar-looking eggs"
Well that cannot mean Xenomorph eggs, how can you possibly have a "hand full" of something thats half as tall as a human and easily shoulder width in diameter or more.
The only thing remotely egg like that Davide could have a "hand full" of are the pods that release the Neomorph spores.
So Davide is not creating Xenomorphs but the Neomorphs. That or this info is fake.
Quote from: Neomorph on Mar 13, 2017, 11:44:37 PM
This is sounding less and less plausible.
We already have a mural show that xenos existed already and I've already pointed out its physically impossible to have a handful of xeno eggs.
It's shown in the trailer. They are in fact xeno or Alien eggs.
I think you might be be missing my point or maybe I'm missing yours, we'll see.
Ok, how big is your common, all garden xeno egg? On the average person said egg is about up to their waist and is a little wider then human shoulder width.
It is describe that Davide "picks up a handful of eggs". Thats physical impossible, to just pick up just one egg you'd need both arms rapped around the bloody thing. Considerably lot more then a handful.
Now is there a scene were we see a load of mini-xeno eggs in the trailer that I have missed? If not then the only logical way a person could do what David is described as doing is if they are NOT xeno eggs but the Neo Spore Pods seen in the trailer and whoever passed on this information got their facts wrong in the interview.
"David shows Christopher a handful of familiar-looking eggs" is a figure of speech in that "a handful" is the batch of eggs where the facehugger leaps out. This scene is shown in the trailer, albeit without the dialog but Fassbender and Crudup are both there.
Quote from: Neomorph on Mar 13, 2017, 11:44:37 PM
This is sounding less and less plausible.
We already have a mural show that xenos existed already and I've already pointed out its physically impossible to have a handful of xeno eggs.
Ridley and the studio do not give a shit about that two-second shot from
Prometheus. They're already basically tossing most of that movie out of the airlock from the jump.
It wasnt Alien on the mural, it was the Deacon
I actually like this idea for some reason.
Just unsure how Davids eggs would have gotten to LV-426....
Quote from: Predaker on Mar 14, 2017, 12:58:12 AM
"David shows Christopher a handful of familiar-looking eggs" is a figure of speech in that "a handful" is the batch of eggs where the facehugger leaps out. This scene is shown in the trailer, albeit without the dialog but Fassbender and Crudup are both there.
I see thank you for explain.
Quote from: StrangeShape on Mar 14, 2017, 01:03:34 AM
It wasnt Alien on the mural, it was the Deacon
Yes, but the Xenomorph is a descendent of the Deacon, related to it through the black goo, spores and Neomorphs. So you could argue the Xenomorph is just an evolution, genetically engineered by David or not, of the creature in the mural.
I honestly don't mind that David made (or re-made) the Xeno. He's a fascinating character, honestly the most well-realized one in the franchise since Ripley, and I think it's great that Covenant basically has an extraordinary villain at its disposal.
Sometimes I wonder if synthetics were the Engineers' intended next step in the evolution of humanity, coming closer to the fusion of the biological and mechanical they seemed to desire, and that's why they saw the biomechanical Giger Xenomorph as a fitting punishment for their failed children. Might explain why the guy at the end of Prometheus looks at David so fondly before he rips his head off... they almost accomplished their goal, if only humans were trustworthy enough to steward their own evolution...
I'm clearly in the minority here, but if David ends up being the creator of the xenomorph, I think it adds depth to the series. It's not like he's the creator of the black goo or whatever the catalyst is, he's just putting things that have existed for centuries into a new order. The xenomorph clearly has human and synthetic attributes so it's actually pretty logical from a narrative standpoint to have a synthetic create it via experiments, possibly to be a biological container for its consciousness. It was clear after Prometheus that Scott was going for a re-telling of the Gnostic's Fall of Sophia myth and this just adds more credence to that set up. Bring it on. Xenomorphs are no longer just bugs, they're demonic synthetic beasts created by a demi-urge like entity. That's the stuff of nightmares. That's what Giger was tapping into. His Necronomicon is proof that he was more interested in the corruption aspect of spirituality than he was extraterrestrials.
And to ease the frustration a little bit: If this ends up being true, Scott has expanded the Alien universe so other types of extraterrestrials can make appearances down the line. The xenomorph might be a creation of David, but who knows what else is out there. We're going to see a whole lot more if Scott can deliver here. IMO.
This really deeply dissapoints me. I've been finding ways to explain it away in my head for as long as there have been hints but this seems to be solid proof that this ridiculous premise is true.
I guess I need to resign myself to the fact Hoping that it won't be true somehow will just sour the whole movie when it turns out it is.
What's next, Aliens shedding their carapaces to reveal they're just the larval stage of giant albinos? Ha! You thought that was just a flight suit, didn't you?
Yes, I think it needs to be said again. The mural depicts a deacon, not a xenomorph. It's an important distinction. The xenomorph, while similar to a deacon, is quite different aesthetically. The long tail, the inner jaw, the bio-mechanical tubing, the human skull, etc. The mural doesn't contradict anything. We can only speculate at this point about the nature of a full grown deacon, but it's possible that a deacon is more...let's say, intellectual than a xenomorph. While highly improbable, maybe deacons are the antithesis of the xenomorph. Either way, the mural indicates that the deacon is an ancient entity, and David being the creator of the xenomorph doesn't mean he's the creator of the ancient catalyst. He's just manipulating it. If anything, this should make people salivate for more deacon information.
Quote from: newagescamartist on Mar 14, 2017, 02:56:27 AM
Yes, I think it needs to be said again. The mural depicts a deacon, not a xenomorph.
No, it even features eggs and facehuggers. It was drawn by Giger specifically to represent the Alien lifecycle.
Quote from: Kurai on Mar 14, 2017, 03:08:59 AM
Quote from: newagescamartist on Mar 14, 2017, 02:56:27 AM
Yes, I think it needs to be said again. The mural depicts a deacon, not a xenomorph.
No, it even features eggs and facehuggers. It was drawn by Giger specifically to represent the Alien lifecycle.
The creature in the center is clearly not a xenomorph. It's certainly, xeno-like, but its features align with the features of the deacon almost perfectly. No tail, pointed head ( as opposed to a rounded head ), and no biomechanical attributes. I'm not up to date on the spoilers, but it's possible that facehuggers and eggs play another pivotal role that we're not aware of. It's possible that eggs and facehuggers are important in the genesis of a typical deacon like creature. Or it's also possible that the mural doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things. Who knows. Maybe it's just artistic license. Maybe there was some cross-up. I just know that the creature is the center looks an awful lot more like a deacon than a xenomorph.
Quote from: FreeFacehugz on Mar 13, 2017, 10:02:51 PM
He's not creating them. He's re-creating them. IMO.
Exactly.
Quote from: newagescamartist on Mar 14, 2017, 03:24:24 AM
The creature in the center is clearly not a xenomorph. It's certainly, xeno-like, but its features align with the features of the deacon almost perfectly. No tail, pointed head ( as opposed to a rounded head ), and no biomechanical attributes. I'm not up to date on the spoilers, but it's possible that facehuggers and eggs play another pivotal role that we're not aware of. It's possible that eggs and facehuggers are important in the genesis of a typical deacon like creature. Or it's also possible that the mural doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things. Who knows. Maybe it's just artistic license. Maybe there was some cross-up. I just know that the creature is the center looks an awful lot more like a deacon than a xenomorph.
While there's no accounting for retroactive continuity, the mural specifically shows the Alien lifecycle as conceptualized by H R Giger. It's an artistic representation, saying that it isn't an Alien because it's a low detail representation is like saying a stick figure doesn't represent a human.
Regardless of what continuity does to explain it away, it was to represent H R Giger's concept art for the Alien lifecycle, thus it can't be anything other than an Alien until retconned to be otherwise. That's simple undisputable fact.
Quote from: Kurai on Mar 14, 2017, 03:38:28 AM
Quote from: newagescamartist on Mar 14, 2017, 03:24:24 AM
The creature in the center is clearly not a xenomorph. It's certainly, xeno-like, but its features align with the features of the deacon almost perfectly. No tail, pointed head ( as opposed to a rounded head ), and no biomechanical attributes. I'm not up to date on the spoilers, but it's possible that facehuggers and eggs play another pivotal role that we're not aware of. It's possible that eggs and facehuggers are important in the genesis of a typical deacon like creature. Or it's also possible that the mural doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things. Who knows. Maybe it's just artistic license. Maybe there was some cross-up. I just know that the creature is the center looks an awful lot more like a deacon than a xenomorph.
While there's no accounting for retroactive continuity, the mural specifically shows the Alien lifecycle as conceptualized by H R Giger. It's an artistic representation, saying that it isn't an Alien because it's a low detail representation is like saying a stick figure doesn't represent a human.
Regardless of what continuity does to explain it away, it was to represent H R Giger's concept art for the Alien lifecycle, thus it can't be anything other than an Alien until retconned to be otherwise. That's simple undisputable fact.
The stick figure analogy doesn't make sense. The mural is an extremely detailed piece of artwork, but I'm not disputing the intent behind the image. I'm saying that within the context of Prometheus, it's showing an entity that has more similarity with a deacon than a xenomorph. I don't think that's an accident. My whole point is that if David is credited with creating the xenomorph, it doesn't contradict anything we've seen in the films so far, aside from AVP and AVP:R. You see a xenomorph and I see a deacon. At this point, I'm for agreeing to disagree. Cheers, we're nerds! ;D
As the "Prometheus Art of the Film" book states, the mural depicts a "Giger-esque" creature, and thus is not the classic star beast.
Somehow I'm fine with the idea David re-fining or engineering it into a more "perfect" creation, it's like taking a wild fruit and making it more aesthetically beautiful, the question remains whether it had actually been done before (the derelict), and given Scott's comments about A.I. not being authentic creators there may be further revelations here regarding all of this.
Quote from: newagescamartist on Mar 14, 2017, 04:04:19 AM
Quote from: Kurai on Mar 14, 2017, 03:38:28 AM
Quote from: newagescamartist on Mar 14, 2017, 03:24:24 AM
The creature in the center is clearly not a xenomorph. It's certainly, xeno-like, but its features align with the features of the deacon almost perfectly. No tail, pointed head ( as opposed to a rounded head ), and no biomechanical attributes. I'm not up to date on the spoilers, but it's possible that facehuggers and eggs play another pivotal role that we're not aware of. It's possible that eggs and facehuggers are important in the genesis of a typical deacon like creature. Or it's also possible that the mural doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things. Who knows. Maybe it's just artistic license. Maybe there was some cross-up. I just know that the creature is the center looks an awful lot more like a deacon than a xenomorph.
While there's no accounting for retroactive continuity, the mural specifically shows the Alien lifecycle as conceptualized by H R Giger. It's an artistic representation, saying that it isn't an Alien because it's a low detail representation is like saying a stick figure doesn't represent a human.
Regardless of what continuity does to explain it away, it was to represent H R Giger's concept art for the Alien lifecycle, thus it can't be anything other than an Alien until retconned to be otherwise. That's simple undisputable fact.
The stick figure analogy doesn't make sense. The mural is an extremely detailed piece of artwork, but I'm not disputing the intent behind the image. I'm saying that within the context of Prometheus, it's showing an entity that has more similarity with a deacon than a xenomorph. I don't think that's an accident. My whole point is that if David is credited with creating the xenomorph, it doesn't contradict anything we've seen in the films so far, aside from AVP and AVP:R. You see a xenomorph and I see a deacon. At this point, I'm for agreeing to disagree. Cheers, we're nerds! ;D
Just to inform you, the Mural also has artwork of facehugger and an engineer getting face hugged, implying that the typical Alien life cycle existed much before the events of Prometheus.
The mural creature could be an Ultramorph or a Deacon or some ancestral form of Xenomorph.
What David would presumably do is recreate the life cycle and create a Xeno morph. But he couldn't possibly have created the alien lifecycle as such.
Quote from: StrangeShape on Mar 14, 2017, 01:03:34 AM
It wasnt Alien on the mural, it was the Deacon
There was more than that.
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/avp/images/0/0c/Normal_art-of-prometheus-003.PNG
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n549/smarty9000/prometheus4/mural_compare.jpg
Um the theory was that David just add the biomechanoid part to this species made from the ancients, cuz that monster attacking Tennesse or whatever is not the classic xeno
Quote from: reecebomb on Mar 13, 2017, 10:19:51 PM
Quote from: FreeFacehugz on Mar 13, 2017, 10:02:51 PM
He's not creating them. He's re-creating them. IMO.
This is something some of the fans have made up to lessen the blow. There's a slim this could be true, but i doubt it.
How is it slim?
There is a mural of an egg and facehugger in prometheus.
Quote from: wedgeg on Mar 13, 2017, 10:54:40 PM
So how were the alien eggs created they would have to come from a queen?
a queen?. What is that
Quote from: Neomorph on Mar 13, 2017, 11:44:37 PM
This is sounding less and less plausible.
We already have a mural show that xenos existed already and I've already pointed out its physically impossible to have a handful of xeno eggs.
You're taking the term 'handful' literally to describe the size of the eggs. Remember 'handful' is also used to mean a small number of something.
Spoiler
The eggs will be similar in size to what we are familiar to.
Quote from: Theecatindahat on Mar 14, 2017, 08:00:06 AM
Quote from: Neomorph on Mar 13, 2017, 11:44:37 PM
This is sounding less and less plausible.
We already have a mural show that xenos existed already and I've already pointed out its physically impossible to have a handful of xeno eggs.
You're taking the term 'handful' literally to describe the size of the eggs. Remember 'handful' is also used to mean a small number of something. Spoiler
The eggs will be similar in size to what we are familiar to.
Pretty sure he was joking lol
I'm also okay with David re-creating the xenomorph and alike creatures from the Black Goo.
Personally, I think the Black Goo operates differently depending on the genetic and reproductive makeup of those whom it infects. Not wanting to promote sci-fi ;) but for me Chris nails it on this subject: http://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/41908
Based on what we've seen in the series so far Black Goo effects currently elicit the following:
Male = Transformation into aggressive / Xeno-like zombie creature
Female = Facehugger
Infected Male + Non-infected Female = Proto-Facehugger
Facehugger + Engineer = Ultramorph
Facehugger + Human = Xenomorph (or close to)
Proto-Facehugger + Engineer / Human = Deacon
I don't think the murals proved anything other than the Deacon being their ultimate creation with themselves, the engineers, as the basis to obtain it previous trilobite facehugg
The rest of things they obtain are direct black goo mutations.
I can't really see they solving the terrible mess Prometheus was. All just because they wanted to remove anything alien related from that film (to the point of even changing everything related to the jockeys, ship interiors and tech included), and now they want to come back to it.
They even removed the original Fitfield scene where he was probably turning into something, if not the same, similar to these neomorphs we now know they are obtained by direct black goo infection on human-like beings, this including engineers not just humans. They opted for that zombie thing, and now it becomes another problem that they will just have no way to deal with it other than embarrasing retconning, hypothetical Alien 5 style.
They were embarrased of the alien in prometheus (Scott's talking that he had seen it at Disneyworld, etc). Now they will have to retcon in covenant.
And all other stuff that was left unexplanied in prometheus, such as the green crystal, etc.
What a mess.
_______________
By the way, and being obvious the alien we see in covenant still isn't the biomechanical one..., one of the things Weyland used to say to David, is that he would never had a soul because he wasn't a man, or in other words, a living being. In the end David could see the black goo as a thing to become somehow alive, and might end up using it on him or walter. However, if the classic alien resembles the engineer tech, their suits I mean..., wouldn't that be what he is eventually going to do?, to fuse engineer suit tech (or general engineer tech) on this new alien of his he has just created, and not on a synth like itself?
I think the origin of the classic alien will go that route. A fusion of what David has already developed with engineer tech
Scott's said since 1979 that the Alien picks up host traits successively, so the one we see in Alien actually has Jockey and human mixed together.
This seems to follow the idea, but since the Jockey is now the Engineer and just a human, how it plays out is anyone's guess. The Engineer at the end of Prometheus seemed to have a biomechanical body, but the corpses seen in the trailer look like the usual pale people.
The jockey in ALIEN is David.
FYI
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 14, 2017, 11:31:45 AM
Quote from: jdxmoore on Mar 14, 2017, 09:01:50 AM
Female = Facehugger
What? ???
Referring to the Trilobite thing from Shaw. (I also had to think a moment...lol)
Quote from: SiL on Mar 14, 2017, 09:40:14 AM
The Engineer at the end of Prometheus seemed to have a biomechanical body, but the corpses seen in the trailer look like the usual pale people.
Those biomech bodies they had in Prometheus seem to be suits too. I think some people refer to those as pressure suits.
We obviously have to watch covenant first before coming to conclusions, but up to this point after looking at the new alien, which still has nothing of biomech, we can only come to those two conclusions:
a) Either David try to experiment the goo on synthetics, mixing it together with this new alien of his which still isn't biomechanical. If he tries it on himself It might be due to what Weyland always told to him. He hasn't a soul because he ain't alive, so finding a way to make the goo react with his synth body, that could mean to him he would become alive, and thus he would have a soul now, although he would turn into the classic alien
b) David mixes this new alien with engineer suit tech.
Or since we might assume not all of the engineer race has been wiped out, just those in that planet, then in the next film we could see some engineers "having a look" at what David has come up with, this new alien we see in the trailer without biomech features, and then they do the rest with their tech in orther to create the classic alien (you guys remember that pic of two engineers on pressure suits having a look at a classic alien which is inside an observation capsule or something?), and once again try using it on us, because they should be now really pissed at us after witnessing what David has done to them and in their own planet.
We shouldn't also forget (sadly) what we saw in dat forgettable game called aliens colonial marines when we shoot the jockey..., perhaps that's what it happens eventually to the derelict, although it's still uncertain who was piloting it.., the bad engineers?, or David?. All we know is the "good" engineers shoot the Derelict down if we take that as the canon future Scott has in store for the last film as a link to alien.
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 14, 2017, 05:22:07 AM
Quote from: StrangeShape on Mar 14, 2017, 01:03:34 AM
It wasnt Alien on the mural, it was the Deacon
There was more than that.
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/avp/images/0/0c/Normal_art-of-prometheus-003.PNG
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n549/smarty9000/prometheus4/mural_compare.jpg
Those images from the urn room ceiling would certainly imply that the eggs and the xeno pre-date David. My fear is that they are strictly an easter egg made for eagle eyed fans, and not meant as a true source of detail/truth for the ALIEN universe. I don't have a lot of confidence that Ridley truly means anything specific when it comes to seemingly important visual details.
Another example is the "star map" artifacts that Shaw and Holloway use to piece together the location of LV223. Two of the artifacts post date the outbreak at the installation by at least 600 years. IMO this would seem to be a very important detail, but I've come to the conclusion that the dates were probably selected because they simply lined up with the rise of Mayan and Hawaiian civilizations.
Lest we forget though that, in Prometheus, the pile of dead Engineers appear to have been 'chest-bursted' as have the three other Engineers in their cryo-tubes. So ........ the Alien has existed before, whether by natural occurrence or through being created/re-created by the Engineers, ergo the Alien existed in some form prior to David's meddling.
Quote from: Kurai on Mar 14, 2017, 02:47:43 AM
What's next, Aliens shedding their carapaces to reveal they're just the larval stage of giant albinos? Ha! You thought that was just a flight suit, didn't you?
or... 'This isn't even my final form!'
Quote from: imbrie on Mar 14, 2017, 12:35:57 PM
Lest we forget though that, in Prometheus, the pile of dead Engineers appear to have been 'chest-bursted' as have the three other Engineers in their cryo-tubes. So ........ the Alien has existed before, whether by natural occurrence or through being created/re-created by the Engineers, meaning the Alien existed in some form prior to David's meddling.
^This.
Also, why would Ridley bother to have that "rule book" produced from all the existing films if they weren't going to be careful about conflicts with previous movies? Unless that didn't include
Prometheus...which also wouldn't make sense.
I'm curious to know why Christopher would even want to see the eggs after David just told him he needed a human host to complete their birth? Makes Christopher look really dumb.
I'm not sure I can get onboard with this. I love David as a character, but to lay at his feet the creation of this unknowable terror is way too simplistic, way too convenient. If he is re-creating them then I am all onboard—I just hope that this is what the film actually represents.
Quote from: lv_226 on Mar 14, 2017, 01:38:06 PM
I'm not sure I can get onboard with this. I love David as a character, but to lay at his feet the creation of this unknowable terror is way too simplistic, way too convenient. If he is re-creating them then I am all onboard—I just hope that this is what the film actually represents.
Allay your fears as I honestly don't think that is what we are getting though. The title of Bloody Disgusting's article is misleading as it doesn't actually reveal the origin of the Xenomorph at all. David seems to merely be playing with the black goo and using tech/data stored in the Engineer's citadel.
Quote from: imbrie on Mar 14, 2017, 01:42:16 PM
Quote from: lv_226 on Mar 14, 2017, 01:38:06 PM
I'm not sure I can get onboard with this. I love David as a character, but to lay at his feet the creation of this unknowable terror is way too simplistic, way too convenient. If he is re-creating them then I am all onboard—I just hope that this is what the film actually represents.
Allay your fears as I honestly don't think that is what we are getting though. The title of Bloody Disgusting's article is misleading as it doesn't actually reveal the origin of the Xenomorph at all. David seems to merely be playing with the black goo and using tech/data stored in the Engineer's citadel.
That is my ultimate hope.
amoral David + left 10 years to his own devices + Engineer data + Black goo = Xeno fun time
Quote from: imbrie on Mar 14, 2017, 01:42:16 PM
Quote from: lv_226 on Mar 14, 2017, 01:38:06 PM
I'm not sure I can get onboard with this. I love David as a character, but to lay at his feet the creation of this unknowable terror is way too simplistic, way too convenient. If he is re-creating them then I am all onboard—I just hope that this is what the film actually represents.
Allay your fears as I honestly don't think that is what we are getting though. The title of Bloody Disgusting's article is misleading as it doesn't actually reveal the origin of the Xenomorph at all. David seems to merely be playing with the black goo and using tech/data stored in the Engineer's citadel.
It seems to me that David has been continuing the work the Engineers have been doing where the "alien" is concerned while putting his own spin on it.
Quote from: Lord Vermoud on Mar 13, 2017, 11:44:37 PM
This is sounding less and less plausible.
We already have a mural show that xenos existed already and I've already pointed out its physically impossible to have a handful of xeno eggs.
You do realize that "handful" is a phrase that means "few". Not literally a actual handful of eggs.
Quote from: Mustangjeff on Mar 14, 2017, 02:36:18 PM
Quote from: imbrie on Mar 14, 2017, 01:42:16 PM
Quote from: lv_226 on Mar 14, 2017, 01:38:06 PM
I'm not sure I can get onboard with this. I love David as a character, but to lay at his feet the creation of this unknowable terror is way too simplistic, way too convenient. If he is re-creating them then I am all onboard—I just hope that this is what the film actually represents.
Allay your fears as I honestly don't think that is what we are getting though. The title of Bloody Disgusting's article is misleading as it doesn't actually reveal the origin of the Xenomorph at all. David seems to merely be playing with the black goo and using tech/data stored in the Engineer's citadel.
That is my ultimate hope.
amoral David + left 10 years to his own devices + Engineer data + Black goo = Xeno fun time
That's a formula I can get behind.
Quote from: rabidranger on Mar 14, 2017, 03:00:28 PM
Quote from: imbrie on Mar 14, 2017, 01:42:16 PM
Quote from: lv_226 on Mar 14, 2017, 01:38:06 PM
I'm not sure I can get onboard with this. I love David as a character, but to lay at his feet the creation of this unknowable terror is way too simplistic, way too convenient. If he is re-creating them then I am all onboard—I just hope that this is what the film actually represents.
Yes, I absolutely think this is where they are heading, which should be interesting enough without destroying the idea that the creature is an ancient lifeform etc. Ridders has also been alluding to the fact somebody obviously created the Engineers and, while we won't be seeing those beings in Covenant, I'm sure they will be encountered in future installments.
Allay your fears as I honestly don't think that is what we are getting though. The title of Bloody Disgusting's article is misleading as it doesn't actually reveal the origin of the Xenomorph at all. David seems to merely be playing with the black goo and using tech/data stored in the Engineer's citadel.
It seems to me that David has been continuing the work the Engineers have been doing where the "alien" is concerned while putting his own spin on it.
Quote from: imbrie on Mar 14, 2017, 01:42:16 PM
Quote from: lv_226 on Mar 14, 2017, 01:38:06 PM
I'm not sure I can get onboard with this. I love David as a character, but to lay at his feet the creation of this unknowable terror is way too simplistic, way too convenient. If he is re-creating them then I am all onboard—I just hope that this is what the film actually represents.
Allay your fears as I honestly don't think that is what we are getting though. The title of Bloody Disgusting's article is misleading as it doesn't actually reveal the origin of the Xenomorph at all. David seems to merely be playing with the black goo and using tech/data stored in the Engineer's citadel.
Its a good demonstration of why the press accounts of scenes and even the test screening leaks, should not be taken as gospel. Because the descriptions from the press of the David/Oram scene are contradictory.
The one from: http://io9.gizmodo.com/we-ve-seen-at-least-one-very-grim-secret-at-the-heart-o-1793188750 - describes David telling Oram that he's become an amateur zoologist and has been studying the Neomorphs, showing Oram one of his dissected specimens.
I read this description of the scene first and took it to mean that David hadn't created the Protomorph after all. And his only part in its creation, was showing Oram the eggs. And all David had been doing on Paradise, from his Lab in the citadel, was studying the Neomorph like some Victorian naturalist. Sketching and dissecting the various Neomorph hybrid specimens, that had evolved naturally on planet since being infected with the black goo.
But if you read some of the other press descriptions of the same scene, they claim that David confessors to Oram that he's been genetically mutating the Neomorphs, trying to create the perfect organism. Which I feel, considering that RS has already stated Covenant will show us who created the Alien and why, are probably the more accurate.
Weighing it all up, like others have already pointed out, I'm now suspecting that David just lends a genetic helping hand to the Alien evolution on the planet, rather than being the Frankenstein creator some are fearing.
Unless RS or one of the future films contradicts it. I'm just going to regard the mural creature as official canon in the Alien's genesis and assume the creature in mural is the progenitor of all Xeno's.
As for mural creatures origin story. With the likelihood it will never be explained. My own fanfiction is just going to align with Dan O'Bannon's original origin story for the Alien. That the Engineers found the mural creatures eggs in the ruins of an ancient civilization, who's former inhabitants had worshiped the creature, using it in their sacrificial rituals, until it wiped them out. Then, adding that with RS's idea, (that he's clearly sticking to with Prometheus and Covenant) that the Alien is a bioweapon used to wipe planets clean of their indigenous species. The Engineers take the mural creature and turn it into a bioweapon (the black goo) with the intentions of using it on earth to wipe out humanity, for our, as yet, unexplained transgressions. A containment breach releases the black goo and the mutations and creatures it creates, wipes them out instead.
Now David is attempting to recreate the Engineers experiment. He's bombed Paradise with the black goo to see its full effects on a planetary scale. The goo creates the spores, which in turn infect the local wildlife, creating various hybrids of the Neomorph. Through his research and genetic engineering, David then attempts to perfect the Neomorphs, leading to the creation of the eggs. Oram gets impregnated, giving us the first Protomorph.
Its not the Alien origin story I would of chosen, but I think its the best we our going to get following the convoluted mess that Lindelof left the Alien's origins in, after his attempts to rework Spaihts ideas and add in some of his own trademark ambiguity.
All said and done, I'm still excited for Covenant.
I don't see how they can make two more movies just about David perfecting the Xenomorph. They'll have to include something else to make it more interesting. But what?
I don't know. Maybe I'm completely wrong and they'll still purely focus on David and his creations. I really hope not though.
Dangerous Days - I think that's pretty much spot on, really.
What this 'explanation' fails to address is the fact that the basic genetics of the Xeno are already in existence. The mural and the Deacon are testament to this. David isn't creating anything at all - he's clearly playing around with variations. Look at all the different breeds of dog we have - we're responsible for that through selective breeding. I think this is what David is doing - selective breeding of the 'Morph genome. If he's responsible for the Xeno (which is essentially a Deacon with armor) I think that's actually pretty cool and cruelly ironic at the same time.
This still leaves the question - where did the 'Morphs come from originally. And it also rules out the silly claim that they didn't evolve - the fact that they're adapting to new hosts and environments is what evolution is, through and through.
Quote from: genocyber on Mar 13, 2017, 09:15:14 PM
http://bloody-disgusting.com/news/3428092/saw-alien-covenant-scene-reveals-origin-xenomorphs/
QuoteOur own Trace Thurman is currently at SXSW, where a few select scenes from Ridley Scott's Alien: Covenant were shown off this past weekend. Trace is currently working on an article detailing the footage he saw, so you can expect to read that very soon. In the meantime, there's a super important reveal made in one of the scenes that we just had to let you know about.
If you want ZERO spoilers, proceed with caution.
Scott recently noted that prequel Alien: Covenant will reveal the true origin of the Xenomorph we first met back in 1979, and one of the clips shown at SXSW divulged that secret info ahead of the film's May release. At the end of Prometheus, we saw the birth of the "proto-Xenomorph" known as Deacon, but the origin of the actual Xenomorphs is tied directly to android David.
Here's a brief recap of the scene:
David (Michael Fassbender) is giving Christopher (Billy Crudup) a tour of his workshop, where he's been working on genetically engineering creatures of his own; he's become fascinated with these alien creatures in the wake of the events of Prometheus. David shows Christopher a handful of familiar-looking eggs that are part of his process, revealing that he needs a human host in order to complete their birth. That host, of course, is Christopher himself.
Yes, that means that android David is responsible for literally creating the Xenomorphs. Christopher will later be attacked by a Face Hugger and then give birth to a classic Xeno – footage from that very attack can be seen in the film's official trailer, corroborating this info.
Pretty crazy, eh?!
Katherine Waterston (Inherent Vice, Jobs, The Babysitters) stars with Michael Fassbender returning as Prometheus' android David (and Walter), with a crew that includes Demian Bichir and Danny McBride ("Eastbound and Down"), as well as Alex England (Gods of Egypt), Billy Crudup, Amy Seimetz (A Horrible Way to Die, "The Killing"), Jussie Smollett ("Empire"), Carmen Ejogo, and Callie Hernandez (Machete Kills). James Franco also has a role.
Bound for a remote planet on the far side of the galaxy, the crew of the colony ship Covenant discovers what they think is an uncharted paradise, but is actually a dark, dangerous world — whose sole inhabitant is the "synthetic" David (Michael Fassbender), survivor of the doomed Prometheus expedition
Alien: Covenant arrives in theaters on May 19, 2017.
David simply killed Shaw and
FABRICATED the eggs...
WEAK.
So much for optimism about the writing.
Remember, as far as this film is concerned, these Eggs
have never been seen before.So this is not unlike, if you somehow came over my house, and in between cocktails, I gave you a tour, and in my attic I just HAD SOME BIZZARE EGGS that I've made while studying and messing with the spores on some local fauna - and a facehugger bursts out of one.
Why bother making any story or mythology connect in this series anymore? Just start any story and have someone open their refrigerator and find an egg there.
EXCERPT FROM FUTURE ALIEN SEQUEL:
A Space Miner enters his small Condo from a long haul through the Outer Region, a bit cryo-sick, and thankful to his Colonist Friend for picking him up at the Space Port.
He opens his fridge to offer some refreshments - only to find a slimy Xenomorph Egg.
SPACE MINER:
Wow my botanist roommate brings home the craziest stuff from his Space-College, Farmer's Market.
COLONIST FRIEND:
Gee Willikers! You're roommate sure sounds strange! Are you sure he's not a robot?
SPACE MINER:
Whatevs! That's a big egg and I'm starved from all this space travel.
Whoops ! Alien sequel in my space condo on the Mining Colony of Thadeus.
Quote from: Hemi on Mar 14, 2017, 11:41:57 AM
Referring to the Trilobite thing from Shaw. (I also had to think a moment...lol)
That was such an ridiculously improbable culmination of random events, though. Holloway had to be infected by
just the right amount of black ooze to change by
just the right amount, then he had to have sex at
just the right moment before his body began to do... Whatever it was doing.
And we still don't know how Shaw was even physically capable of getting pregnant, considering her condition, making her a pretty unique case, in itsef.
Quote from: shawsbaby on Mar 14, 2017, 12:49:05 PM
Also, why would Ridley bother to have that "rule book" produced from all the existing films if they weren't going to be careful about conflicts with previous movies? Unless that didn't include Prometheus...which also wouldn't make sense.
We still don't know how extensive or accurate this guide is. Even if it's up to proverbial SM standards, however, it wouldn't be the first time Ridley Scott has ignored advice which has been paid for. '
Gladiator' comes to mind, where he ignored a paid historical advisor purely because he preferred a more artistic interpretation (which is essentially the same thought process which led to him revising the Space Jockeys into muscular albinos).
Quote from: Lord Vermoud on Mar 13, 2017, 11:44:37 PM
This is sounding less and less plausible.
We already have a mural show that xenos existed already and I've already pointed out its physically impossible to have a handful of xeno eggs.
A little late here but it's simply a phrase. It doesn't mean you can literally hold them in your hand but rather a small number of something.
Its either a good idea or a big plot hole. Well see
Quote from: Evanus on Mar 14, 2017, 04:30:49 PM
I don't see how they can make two more movies just about David perfecting the Xenomorph. They'll have to include something else to make it more interesting. But what?
I don't know. Maybe I'm completely wrong and they'll still purely focus on David and his creations. I really hope not though.
You and me both. I cannot fathom what kind of story they are going to tell with these characters for another two films. I see a lot of excitement for this series to continue in two more films, and I am not being negative just for the sake of being negative, but I cannot see how they couldn't just wrap this story-line up in one more outing.
I liked how, when Covenant was first announced, that Prometheus was referenced as part one of a prequel trilogy; this makes the most sense to me from a narrative standpoint. However, starting a new trilogy with Covenant, and then Covenant 2, Covenant 3... man, that is a lot. Quality over quantity—we already had duplicated efforts and questionable content in the last quadrilogy.
Quote from: lv_226 on Mar 14, 2017, 08:30:31 PM
Quote from: Evanus on Mar 14, 2017, 04:30:49 PM
I don't see how they can make two more movies just about David perfecting the Xenomorph. They'll have to include something else to make it more interesting. But what?
I don't know. Maybe I'm completely wrong and they'll still purely focus on David and his creations. I really hope not though.
You and me both. I cannot fathom what kind of story they are going to tell with these characters for another two films. I see a lot of excitement for this series to continue in two more films, and I am not being negative just for the sake of being negative, but I cannot see how they couldn't just wrap this story-line up in one more outing.
I liked how, when Covenant was first announced, that Prometheus was referenced as part one of a prequel trilogy; this makes the most sense to me from a narrative standpoint. However, starting a new trilogy with Covenant, and then Covenant 2, Covenant 3... man, that is a lot. Quality over quantity—we already had duplicated efforts and questionable content in the last quadrilogy.
I highly doubt the next two movies will deal purely with experimenting. I imagine the next story will show us something completely new. If David really is creating or re-creating the most dangerous lifeform in the galaxy, I imagine another alien race in the galaxy would have a problem with that and attempt to stop him. Could be a film where David negotiates with both humankind and the gods, maybe even turning them against each other with some trickery and his pets. I think the narrative is going to get a lot more expansive if Covenant does well at the box office. Heres hoping.
Yep, agreed. Really curious what they're going to do next. I'm hoping to learn more of the engineers, and possibly their creators.
I can't see how it goes on for more than maybe one more, either. (I also expect any survivors of Covenant to face a fate similar to Shaw's in the future, which is already repetitious.) And I think it diminishes Alien to keep banging the xeno/egg/facehugger/etc. drum 20 years before the events of that film, with or without David, especially if he is made a part of its genesis. I think they took the most conventional and limiting story track after Prometheus for a bigger short-term return. You could've done all sorts of horror stories out in the wild frontier, years after the movies.
Quote from: FreeFacehugz on Mar 14, 2017, 08:47:06 AM
Quote from: Theecatindahat on Mar 14, 2017, 08:00:06 AM
Quote from: Neomorph on Mar 13, 2017, 11:44:37 PM
This is sounding less and less plausible.
We already have a mural show that xenos existed already and I've already pointed out its physically impossible to have a handful of xeno eggs.
You're taking the term 'handful' literally to describe the size of the eggs. Remember 'handful' is also used to mean a small number of something. Spoiler
The eggs will be similar in size to what we are familiar to.
Pretty sure he was joking lol
Thanks for the vote of confidence but unfortunately I was actually being that dense. Was have a weird moment.
It doesnt surprise me and i think this will be the truth, the last weeks ive been getting the vibe and thought that this whole thing,
is gonna be about Fassbender aka David.
They just replaced Ripley with David.
We arent and will never get the real mystery that we all wanted about the jockeys, we got a giant bald guy in a suit,
Ridley isnt capable of giving us that magic that he did with Giger back in '79, you know why? because Alien never was his big dream to make, it was just a movie for him wich he filled with some simple "art" back then, with the help of Giger, thats why we never got anything after Alien from Ridley, his passion was more in drama etc.
Now he sees that there is much more in this franchise, and by that i mean money, and simple milking the cow, and that cow is us.
When Ridley was on stage with Fassbender and Waterston, he said my job is to scare you.
And that scared me, yes. Why? because i dont give a oreo about being scared, the reason i watch Alien over and over, is because of the first act, the mystery the questions, i dont watch it to see Ripley in her undies or to see how Lambert or Hurt is getting it.
Im there for the magic the unknown stuff, so Ridley is doing this to scare people, well to me that sentence of his scared me,
because that is not understanding us the fans and the magic that surrounds the alien universe.
I can deal with a giant bald engineer, but give us more mystery and questions and answers, but i cant deal with Fassbender being the creator of this all.
So i say to you all, dont get to exited cos this whole thing can backfire big time in your face, and the dissapointment will be massive if Ridley fails.
I mean he wants to do a sequel to Gladiator, with Maximus in the after life......
If it was me I would not have David make the xenomorphs at all. It feels like it goes against everything that makes them unique creatures. I would have followed up on Shaw's fate of her merging with the tech of the ship to stay alive, and be transformed into a new abomination. Something of a more Giger-esque queen with David her reluctant helper.
At the end of the day, I blame fans and the studios for constantly wanting a series to deliver what it has ALREADY delivered.
You can say Im being negative for the sake of being negative, but Im really suped for this movie. It looks amazing. But what I see here, with David just having these eggs in his basement, is an entire, more interesting film being skipped in favor of cutting to 'what the fans want.'
But fans dont know what they want until they get it. They know what they DON'T want or aren't getting. And the studios should only consider the latter.
This is FOX listening to fans, who want to see more of what the series WAS and less of what its become. But there is a difference between fixing mistakes and hobbling mistakes.
Its the same business with ALIEN-KAMP. It should just continue from where it left off and work away from the what isn't good. That's all. Rectify, Downplay, whatever. Don't skip or hit delete because fans weren't happy. Those films wont go away because you hit a 'RESET' button.
I hope I'm wrong but I imagine FOX wants this to end up as just another ALIEN movie next. X amount of people landing on another planet. Oh no! More Aliens.
FOR EXAMPLE:
Its the same thing as when they try to remake Friday the 13th, because fans want to see more Jason. Except it took 3 movies to even get to what we consider 'JASON' to be. So we end up with a Friday The 13th Remake, that blasts through all of the events of the first 2 films in 20 minutes, just so Jason can put on a Hockey Mask and they can start where 'fans want them to.' And then the same fans are asking "Why did it suck?"
Well, it sucked because they were afraid to take any real risks.
Im glad RS was trying to inch his way toward things, but Im unhappy with seeing a lack of confidence in new ideas, cause us to revert to fall back 'what the fans want.'
Meanwhile, Im reminded of a PERFECT ORGANISM / Prater argument on his podcast. He notes: Everyone is so unhappy with this trailer (Im not. Im suped for the movie, I just hate what they are doing to gut the ending of Prometheus for this.)
Prater asked:
What is it that fans want? If this isn't delivering it, then what could you possibly want? They are never satisfied.
The truth is - They don't even really know, they just know when they aren't getting it, and the studio has to take a leap of faith.
This thing with David making the eggs, isn't a leap of faith. Its not trying anything at all.
Xenomorphs existed long before David's experiments. I assumed you watched Alien :). Derelict was an ancient ship. It's no-brainer.
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 09:44:42 PM
Xenomorphs existed long before David's experiments. I assumed you watched Alien :). Derelict was an ancient ship. It's no-brainer.
I agree and hope they will head in this direction. But HOW DAVID makes these Eggs is just bollucks. I dont have a problem with him MAKING them or perfecting the creature. I have a problem with them just skipping over him actually doing it.
The question 'what do fans want?' is a really interesting one.
I've had lots of debates with my brother on this. He constantly moans about how bad Prometheus was - I actually agree with him, in the main. It was so disappointing - how Covenant will probably be rubbish, etc. I keep asking him 'what do you want then?' His answer to this? 'For them to let the franchise be'.
Quite an interesting answer I thought.
Should we just be content with the wonder of Alien and leave the beast alone? I, for one, can still watch it now and can completely ignore the path they tread with the Jockey in Prometheus. I don't consider it ruined, so I'm fine with them trying new things. It doesn't diminish the original for me.
Let's see what they cook up in Covenant. I was massively burnt by Prometheus, so my expectations are pretty low. I don't think I can be that disappointed again.
Roll on 12th May.
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 09:44:42 PM
Xenomorphs existed long before David's experiments. I assumed you watched Alien :). Derelict was an ancient ship. It's no-brainer.
Who said the derelict was ancient? some old smoking space trucker/labour guy.
Is it too late to say ... it's just a movie ;)
Quote from: DaveT937 on Mar 14, 2017, 09:56:30 PM
The question 'what do fans want?' is a really interesting one.
I've had lots of debates with my brother on this. He constantly moans about how bad Prometheus was - I actually agree with him, in the main. It was so disappointing - how Covenant will probably be rubbish, etc. I keep asking him 'what do you want then?' His answer to this? 'For them to let the franchise be'.
Quite an interesting answer I thought.
Should we just be content with the wonder of Alien and leave the beast alone? I, for one, can still watch it now and can completely ignore the path they tread with the Jockey in Prometheus. I don't consider it ruined, so I'm fine with them trying new things. It doesn't diminish the original for me.
Let's see what they cook up in Covenant. I was massively burnt by Prometheus, so my expectations are pretty low. I don't think I can be that disappointed again.
Roll on 12th May.
I think if you ask people, fans, right now "What do you want?" You will get one of 4 answers.
Either a) More Prometheus b) More Alien with less Prometheus and tell me that Jockey ISN'T a man in a suit or c) ALIEN-KAMP and bring back Hicks d) A story that has nothing to do with any of this. But there have been 2 sets of sequels now, that tried this and those people still aren't happy. A:C is the 4th Alien film since A:R. Ripley is long gone.
If I had to answer the question, I would tell you, I want something Pulse-pounding and perverse, with strong characters, and a stronger narrative. Im not against an Alien 5, but wrap it up. The series needs a solid direction and finish.
I think PROMETHEUS has problems. I enjoy it. Its most of those things, I want, until the MEDPOD scene, and then it just doesnt follow through. I think that as the series continues, fans will see it more as source for rather endless speculation about what's really going on and if they clarify some minor things it will be looked back on fondly.
As hated as PROMETHEUS is, it never actually does anything to outright explain that SPACE JOCKEY. If they just hint at the idea that its NOT an Engineer even more - even if they never get to what that SJ ACTUALLY is - this could change a lot of people's minds.
Quote from: CainsSon on Mar 14, 2017, 09:43:45 PM
At the end of the day, I blame fans and the studios for constantly wanting a series to deliver what it has ALREADY delivered.
You can say Im being negative for the sake of being negative, but Im really suped for this movie. It looks amazing. But what I see here, with David just having these eggs in his basement, is an entire, more interesting film being skipped in favor of cutting to 'what the fans want.'
But fans dont know what they want until they get it. They know what they DON'T want or aren't getting. And the studios should only consider the latter.
This is FOX listening to fans, who want to see more of what the series WAS and less of what its become. But there is a difference between fixing mistakes and hobbling mistakes.
Its the same business with ALIEN-KAMP. It should just continue from where it left off and work away from the what isn't good. That's all. Rectify, Downplay, whatever. Don't skip or hit delete because fans weren't happy. Those films wont go away because you hit a 'RESET' button.
I hope I'm wrong but I imagine FOX wants this to end up as just another ALIEN movie next. X amount of people landing on another planet. Oh no! More Aliens.
FOR EXAMPLE:
Its the same thing as when they try to remake Friday the 13th, because fans want to see more Jason. Except it took 3 movies to even get to what we consider 'JASON' to be. So we end up with a Friday The 13th Remake, that blasts through all of the events of the first 2 films in 20 minutes, just so Jason can put on a Hockey Mask and they can start where 'fans want them to.' And then the same fans are asking "Why did it suck?"
Well, it sucked because they were afraid to take any real risks.
Im glad RS was trying to inch his way toward things, but Im unhappy with seeing a lack of confidence in new ideas, cause us to revert to fall back 'what the fans want.'
Meanwhile, Im reminded of a PERFECT ORGANISM / Prater argument on his podcast. He notes: Everyone is so unhappy with this trailer (Im not. Im suped for the movie, I just hate what they are doing to gut the ending of Prometheus for this.)
Prater asked:
What is it that fans want? If this isn't delivering it, then what could you possibly want? They are never satisfied.
The truth is - They don't even really know, they just know when they aren't getting it, and the studio has to take a leap of faith.
This thing with David making the eggs, isn't a leap of faith. Its not trying anything at all.
Who's saying the movie doesn't have David explaining how he made the eggs before he shows Chris?
Quote from: zoidy on Mar 14, 2017, 09:59:59 PM
Is it too late to say ... it's just a movie ;)
It is. But it's more, too. And surely you know you are in the wrong place for that placid interpretation.
Quote from: Infected on Mar 14, 2017, 09:58:42 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 09:44:42 PM
Xenomorphs existed long before David's experiments. I assumed you watched Alien :). Derelict was an ancient ship. It's no-brainer.
Who said the derelict was ancient? some old smoking space trucker/labour guy.
Right! This is the problem. We have the idea in our heads that it's ancient. That fits a certain narrative, but I think we are seeing the re-writing of that narrative. How you think about these new movies is greatly influenced by your position on that narrative.
Quote from: Infected on Mar 14, 2017, 09:58:42 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 09:44:42 PM
Xenomorphs existed long before David's experiments. I assumed you watched Alien :). Derelict was an ancient ship. It's no-brainer.
Who said the derelict was ancient? some old smoking space trucker/labour guy.
It's no-brainer because Xenomorphs are ancient species. David didn't create them. If he did it would kill all the mystery about
Alien universe and Scott knows that. For that reasons he repeats like mantra the same thing:
who created them and why? Those two simple questions give an answer to one certain thing: it is not David for sure. It wouldn't make any sense at all.
It's like with the rumour about Daniel's being Ripley's mother. Some fans believed in that. I didn't. Scott is not that stupid. Some fans just create those crazy theories and then other fans have panic-attacks.
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Mar 14, 2017, 10:18:15 PM
Quote from: zoidy on Mar 14, 2017, 09:59:59 PM
Is it too late to say ... it's just a movie ;)
It is. But it's more, too. And surely you know you are in the wrong place for that placid interpretation.
Quote from: Infected on Mar 14, 2017, 09:58:42 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 09:44:42 PM
Xenomorphs existed long before David's experiments. I assumed you watched Alien :). Derelict was an ancient ship. It's no-brainer.
Who said the derelict was ancient? some old smoking space trucker/labour guy.
Right! This is the problem. We have the idea in our heads that it's ancient. That fits a certain narrative, but I think we are seeing the re-writing of that narrative. How you think about these new movies is greatly influenced by your position on that narrative.
And this is what I mean about fans
thinking they know what they don't want. I like that Derelict being Ancient. I think it really adds this Lovecraftian-Deep-Time scary mystery. The perversity of its design not withstanding.
However, if they should decide to change that narrative, I won't know if I like it until I see how well it's handled.
This is why I think the only thing the Studio should consider is what fans aren't
getting or
feeling from what's been released.
Because the fact is, I think the Engineers themselves were fine, it's how they were handled that sucked. Its not WHAT they did to change the narrative. Its how it was handled.
GIGER'S ARTWORK included Engineer looking humaoid's biomechanically fused with the same type of stuff seen in the Derelict. But when they introduced them in Prometheus, they shied away from the very things that would have made them horrific and instead, used cheesy green holograms. NO!!! If when that Engineer sat in that Pilot seat, the entire mechanics started fusing with his body horrifically, or if he subjected humans to fusing with stuff much in the same way, PROMETHEUS would have been astronomically better-received.
Its not about worrying about what fans don't want, it's about not delivering it in a way that fans will accept, because its not in step with what they love about the series.
Its the same thing with the beginning of Alien3. Its not that the developments are unpopular. Thats what people THINK annoys them. Rather, its the way they are handled.
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 10:26:44 PM
Quote from: Infected on Mar 14, 2017, 09:58:42 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 09:44:42 PM
Xenomorphs existed long before David's experiments. I assumed you watched Alien :). Derelict was an ancient ship. It's no-brainer.
Who said the derelict was ancient? some old smoking space trucker/labour guy.
It's no-brainer because Xenomorphs are ancient species. David didn't create them. If he did it would kill all the mystery about Alien universe and Scott knows that. For that reasons he repeats like mantra the same thing: who created them and why? Those two simple questions give an answer to one certain thing: it is not David for sure. It wouldn't make any sense at all.
It's like with the rumour about Daniel's being Ripley's mother. Some fans believed in that. I didn't. Scott is not that stupid. Some fans just create those crazy theories and then other fans have panic-attacks.
Ok, lets get this from the beginning, i dont know what the comics and all other sources say about this, but lets for instance see the space jockey in the comics before Prometheus came out, in some comics they looked ridiculous, and it just said that the people who made those comics didnt had a clue how to portrait the jockey, they just went with the Alien look.
So where and how did you guys came up with the fact that the xenomorph is ancient? i dont find it in any of the latest movie(s)
and i dont think Ridley wants that.
Quote from: Infected on Mar 14, 2017, 10:37:25 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 10:26:44 PM
Quote from: Infected on Mar 14, 2017, 09:58:42 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 09:44:42 PM
Xenomorphs existed long before David's experiments. I assumed you watched Alien :). Derelict was an ancient ship. It's no-brainer.
Who said the derelict was ancient? some old smoking space trucker/labour guy.
It's no-brainer because Xenomorphs are ancient species. David didn't create them. If he did it would kill all the mystery about Alien universe and Scott knows that. For that reasons he repeats like mantra the same thing: who created them and why? Those two simple questions give an answer to one certain thing: it is not David for sure. It wouldn't make any sense at all.
It's like with the rumour about Daniel's being Ripley's mother. Some fans believed in that. I didn't. Scott is not that stupid. Some fans just create those crazy theories and then other fans have panic-attacks.
Ok, lets get this from the beginning, i dont know what the comics and all other sources say about this, but lets for instance see the space jockey in the comics before Prometheus came out, in some comics they looked ridiculous, and it just said that the people who made those comics didnt had a clue how to portrait the jockey, they just went with the Alien look.
So where and how did you guys came up with the fact that the xenomorph is ancient? i dont find it in any of the latest movie(s)
and i dont think Ridley wants that.
It's only my opinion about what Scott wants. I might be wrong and you might be right. What I'm saying is that when Scott is asked about
Covenant he always repeats himself saying that:
who created them and why? Then he says that these bio-mechanoids (he likes using that word) are weapons of mass destruction which means that they have been used before by some other species (Engineers?). For that reason David cannot be Xenomorph's creator. It would be illogical. Scott wants to go big. Epic. He wants to extend that Alien mythos and David being responsible for Xenomorph creation doesn't fit into that idea. That's what I think.
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 10:50:55 PM
Quote from: Infected on Mar 14, 2017, 10:37:25 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 10:26:44 PM
Quote from: Infected on Mar 14, 2017, 09:58:42 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 09:44:42 PM
Xenomorphs existed long before David's experiments. I assumed you watched Alien :). Derelict was an ancient ship. It's no-brainer.
Who said the derelict was ancient? some old smoking space trucker/labour guy.
It's no-brainer because Xenomorphs are ancient species. David didn't create them. If he did it would kill all the mystery about Alien universe and Scott knows that. For that reasons he repeats like mantra the same thing: who created them and why? Those two simple questions give an answer to one certain thing: it is not David for sure. It wouldn't make any sense at all.
It's like with the rumour about Daniel's being Ripley's mother. Some fans believed in that. I didn't. Scott is not that stupid. Some fans just create those crazy theories and then other fans have panic-attacks.
Ok, lets get this from the beginning, i dont know what the comics and all other sources say about this, but lets for instance see the space jockey in the comics before Prometheus came out, in some comics they looked ridiculous, and it just said that the people who made those comics didnt had a clue how to portrait the jockey, they just went with the Alien look.
So where and how did you guys came up with the fact that the xenomorph is ancient? i dont find it in any of the latest movie(s)
and i dont think Ridley wants that.
It's only my opinion about what Scott wants. I might be wrong and you might be right. What I'm saying is that when Scott is asked about Covenant he always repeats himself saying that: who created them and why? Then he says that these bio-mechanoids (he likes using that word) are weapons of mass destruction which means that they have been used before by some other species (Engineers?). For that reason David cannot be Xenomorph's creator. It would be illogical. Scott wants to go big. Epic. He wants to extend that Alien mythos and David being responsible for Xenomorph creation doesn't fit into that idea. That's what I think.
That makes a lot of sense and I hope you're right. But if that's the case, then why does Covenant focus so much on David making his Xenomorphs? They're really hinting at David being their creator. It kind of contradicts what Scott says.
as the article says, david might be recreating engineer's experiments, continuing them or "perfecting" them, but being the very creator of the xenomorph species i dont think so, given the deacon in prometheus exists, even if different looking, it already rules out that possibility, and the process, is already shown, an EGG(elizabeth shaw) produces the parasite(trilobite) that impregnates a host(last engineer) and then the creature emerges when ready(deacon and though way bigger and more developed than the usual xenomorphs, iit woulcc be the same case as the runner alien that develops further before bursting out of its host)
question is, WHY, then hwy is he reconstructed, if i were shaw i woudltn even think about letting "it" do the same again(given that he was te one who infected her boyfriend to begin with)
Quote from: CainsSon on Mar 14, 2017, 10:31:13 PM
And this is what I mean about fans thinking they know what they don't want. I like that Derelict being Ancient. I think it really adds this Lovecraftian-Deep-Time scary mystery. The perversity of its design not withstanding.
However, if they should decide to change that narrative, I won't know if I like it until I see how well it's handled.
This is why I think the only thing the Studio should consider is what fans aren't getting or feeling from what's been released.
Because the fact is, I think the Engineers themselves were fine, it's how they were handled that sucked. Its not WHAT they did to change the narrative. Its how it was handled.
GIGER'S ARTWORK included Engineer looking humaoid's biomechanically fused with the same type of stuff seen in the Derelict. But when they introduced them in Prometheus, they shied away from the very things that would have made them horrific and instead, used cheesy green holograms. NO!!! If when that Engineer sat in that Pilot seat, the entire mechanics started fusing with his body horrifically, or if he subjected humans to fusing with stuff much in the same way, PROMETHEUS would have been astronomically better-received.
Its not about worrying about what fans don't want, it's about not delivering it in a way that fans will accept, because its not in step with what they love about the series.
Its the same thing with the beginning of Alien3. Its not that the developments are unpopular. Thats what people THINK annoys them. Rather, its the way they are handled.
That's pretty cool. We're in agreement on a lot of things. I think, these new movies would be stronger if Scott & Co decided to move forward instead of falling into the prequel trap. This is what kills the mystery. Everything is explained one way (even things that should not be explicitly explained), and the story is stuck in a time warp. Plus, as Hicks points out (and I completely agree), Aliens Apocalypse: The Destroying Angels already made a much more compelling attempt at positioning the Aliens and Space Jockeys in the universe. That had a little comics weirdness, but it had a whole lot of Conrad themes and Lovecraftian goodness about it. It was deliberately Heart of Darkness with Aliens and Space Jockeys. Many elements were nicely handled, and it was not a prequel story.
Quote from: FreeFacehugz on Mar 13, 2017, 10:02:51 PM
He's not creating them. He's re-creating them. IMO.
Or possibly altering a form of iife the engineers had already exploited as weapons, to become even deadlier and consequently, even more uncontrollable.
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 10:50:55 PM
It's only my opinion about what Scott wants. I might be wrong and you might be right. What I'm saying is that when Scott is asked about Covenant he always repeats himself saying that: who created them and why? Then he says that these bio-mechanoids (he likes using that word) are weapons of mass destruction which means that they have been used before by some other species (Engineers?). For that reason David cannot be Xenomorph's creator. It would be illogical. Scott wants to go big. Epic. He wants to extend that Alien mythos and David being responsible for Xenomorph creation doesn't fit into that idea. That's what I think.
We have no idea what Scott wants to do. Intentionality is often unreliable as an ascribed motivation in making a work of art, especially when the work takes a long time to complete. Intentions change over time. The movie will be whatever it is and we will evaluate from there.
I think Ridley's fascinated with David/Fassbender, so he chose to make David central to the mythos. When the original plans for a Prometheus sequel were dropped and they went back to more direct fan service, he kept David in the loop with this.
If he was going to go space epic he'd have done it here. Instead the story is moving sharply away from any of that, wiping out most traces, and going back to an evil android and some aliens. Whether he is completing the Engineers' work or not, who created them and why is answered in this movie - it's David. It's all about David and the aliens from hereon.
Quote from: Infected on Mar 14, 2017, 10:37:25 PM
Ok, lets get this from the beginning, i dont know what the comics and all other sources say about this, but lets for instance see the space jockey in the comics before Prometheus came out, in some comics they looked ridiculous, and it just said that the people who made those comics didnt had a clue how to portrait the jockey, they just went with the Alien look.
So where and how did you guys came up with the fact that the xenomorph is ancient? i dont find it in any of the latest movie(s)
and i dont think Ridley wants that.
Expanded universe is wildly uneven in tone and quality. Best to stick to ideas presented by O'Bannon and Giger. Understand that O'Bannon stole from many sci fi works to craft Alien, that sci fi is rich with pre-cursor races, dead ancients and all that. Giger was heavily influenced by Lovecraft. And we can cover the notion of that with two lines from the web: http://lovecraft.wikia.com/wiki/R%27lyeh
The nightmare corpse-city of R'lyeh ... was built in measureless eons behind history by the vast, loathsome shapes that seeped down from the dark stars. There lay great Cthulhu and his hordes, hidden in green slimy vaults ... until the end. It's all ancient, mad gods and hideous monsters. Add in the general appearance of the Derelict and you get the feeling it's all quite old and alien. There are logical counter-arguments, but the idea of an ancient horror from beyond is an interesting idea to earth-bound humans.
Quote from: Evanus on Mar 14, 2017, 11:04:23 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 10:50:55 PM
Quote from: Infected on Mar 14, 2017, 10:37:25 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 10:26:44 PM
Quote from: Infected on Mar 14, 2017, 09:58:42 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 09:44:42 PM
Xenomorphs existed long before David's experiments. I assumed you watched Alien :). Derelict was an ancient ship. It's no-brainer.
Who said the derelict was ancient? some old smoking space trucker/labour guy.
It's no-brainer because Xenomorphs are ancient species. David didn't create them. If he did it would kill all the mystery about Alien universe and Scott knows that. For that reasons he repeats like mantra the same thing: who created them and why? Those two simple questions give an answer to one certain thing: it is not David for sure. It wouldn't make any sense at all.
It's like with the rumour about Daniel's being Ripley's mother. Some fans believed in that. I didn't. Scott is not that stupid. Some fans just create those crazy theories and then other fans have panic-attacks.
Ok, lets get this from the beginning, i dont know what the comics and all other sources say about this, but lets for instance see the space jockey in the comics before Prometheus came out, in some comics they looked ridiculous, and it just said that the people who made those comics didnt had a clue how to portrait the jockey, they just went with the Alien look.
So where and how did you guys came up with the fact that the xenomorph is ancient? i dont find it in any of the latest movie(s)
and i dont think Ridley wants that.
It's only my opinion about what Scott wants. I might be wrong and you might be right. What I'm saying is that when Scott is asked about Covenant he always repeats himself saying that: who created them and why? Then he says that these bio-mechanoids (he likes using that word) are weapons of mass destruction which means that they have been used before by some other species (Engineers?). For that reason David cannot be Xenomorph's creator. It would be illogical. Scott wants to go big. Epic. He wants to extend that Alien mythos and David being responsible for Xenomorph creation doesn't fit into that idea. That's what I think.
That makes a lot of sense and I hope you're right. But if that's the case, then why does Covenant focus so much on David making his Xenomorphs? They're really hinting at David being their creator. It kind of contradicts what Scott says.
David might very well be the creator of the xenomorph as we know it. However, he clearly didn't create the black goo or originate whatever the xenomorph's original form is.
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 10:50:55 PM
Quote from: Infected on Mar 14, 2017, 10:37:25 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 10:26:44 PM
Quote from: Infected on Mar 14, 2017, 09:58:42 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Mar 14, 2017, 09:44:42 PM
Xenomorphs existed long before David's experiments. I assumed you watched Alien :). Derelict was an ancient ship. It's no-brainer.
Who said the derelict was ancient? some old smoking space trucker/labour guy.
It's no-brainer because Xenomorphs are ancient species. David didn't create them. If he did it would kill all the mystery about Alien universe and Scott knows that. For that reasons he repeats like mantra the same thing: who created them and why? Those two simple questions give an answer to one certain thing: it is not David for sure. It wouldn't make any sense at all.
It's like with the rumour about Daniel's being Ripley's mother. Some fans believed in that. I didn't. Scott is not that stupid. Some fans just create those crazy theories and then other fans have panic-attacks.
Ok, lets get this from the beginning, i dont know what the comics and all other sources say about this, but lets for instance see the space jockey in the comics before Prometheus came out, in some comics they looked ridiculous, and it just said that the people who made those comics didnt had a clue how to portrait the jockey, they just went with the Alien look.
So where and how did you guys came up with the fact that the xenomorph is ancient? i dont find it in any of the latest movie(s)
and i dont think Ridley wants that.
It's only my opinion about what Scott wants. I might be wrong and you might be right. What I'm saying is that when Scott is asked about Covenant he always repeats himself saying that: who created them and why? Then he says that these bio-mechanoids (he likes using that word) are weapons of mass destruction which means that they have been used before by some other species (Engineers?). For that reason David cannot be Xenomorph's creator. It would be illogical. Scott wants to go big. Epic. He wants to extend that Alien mythos and David being responsible for Xenomorph creation doesn't fit into that idea. That's what I think.
Its not about me or my ego my friend, as in right or wrong.
Its just ive find myself being obsessed with this and then i just said to myself,
what are the facts and what direction is he going with this, im having deja vu as before Prometheus came out we all where speculating and stuff, but ironically we were wrong... so wrong.
If the case would be that it is about the story and the origins, then why kill off Shaw and move on with David and his goodie bag of horrors,
The engineers in Prometheus failed at their creations wich turned against them, i assume.
It could also be that the real real jockey paid a visit to their temples, but i think that is wishfull thinking, and it will never happen.
I forgot where i was going at :D but my conclusion is: the mystery died with Prometheus, its almost a fact we have to start realising.
Humans, androids, engineers and xenomorphs, thats all we are gonna get out of this.
So im hoping you guys are right about ancient and stuff and i am wrong.
I'm not completely sold on the ship from Alien being ancient. If it is, that's cool, but if David is the creator of the xenomorph, that's cool also. What we know thus far from Prometheus: David is certainly not the creator of the catalyst. Tweaking an already existing beast and adding bio-mech to it is kind of a nice and nightmarish touch imo. This series has to build up to Alien so it's probable that we won't actually see the finished product beast until we watch Alien ( if we're watching the prequels into the originals ).
Quote from: Infected on Mar 15, 2017, 12:26:22 AM
...my conclusion is: the mystery died with Prometheus, its almost a fact we have to start realising.
Humans, androids, engineers and xenomorphs, thats all we are gonna get out of this.
I realized that a long time ago.
Hmmmmm.
Didn't Ridley recently say something along the lines that an AI can't be originally creative?
I think David has taken the fire from the Gods and is trying to replicate their work - he's obviously getting closer, but I live in hope that the OG bio-mechanical nightmare is not a product of his creation, but the legit ancient version the engineers created / found.
I'm now most interested in what happens to Shaw - given some of the artwork seen on set.
I can guess at the end of Cov. David will end up in possession of the entire colony ship to set up the next installment... holy Christ I just had a nasty thought, if egg morphing is a thing perhaps the cov. colonists are the eggs we see in Alien?! - hopefully not.
Also this must be the most spoiled movie ever?!
Quote from: Xenoscream on Mar 15, 2017, 07:01:50 AM
Also this must be the most spoiled movie ever?!
Most certainly, although It's our fault not theirs. Wespoil the film ourselves. They're just building hype without caring just two cents on spoiling everything.
Problem is that same happened with Prometheus. I mean they spoiled the entire movie through trailers like these, and in the end the movie was not good, saving exceptions like Fassbender and the engineer boy, which was amazingly done in that pressure suit thing let's be honest.
So this being said, I fear the same will eventually happen with Covenant.
Whose responsible for the ammount of content you give away through trailers?. Scott?. If that true and not Fox then he should not be trusted, once more.
I still can't believe he gave away the proto-alien..
Quote from: banecat on Mar 13, 2017, 11:31:44 PM
i am all for david's creation being a new version of something ancient, otherwise the mural makes no sense at all
There are murals of dragons on the walls of British churches, but that doesn't mean that dragons existed.
For all we know, David could have been inspired by Engineer myth, or tried to create a beast from their religion. His amoral android nature could have led him to contemplate bringing monstrous things to life, things that were never meant to exist in reality.
It could be a horrific, reversed version of the events in Galaxy Quest. An outsider mistakes fiction for history and tries to 'recreate' it.
"David watched impassively as Oram struggled and DIED...". ::)
Err... has the person who wrote that ever seen an ALIEN film? ;D
Quote from: Cavalorn on Mar 15, 2017, 09:47:10 AM
Quote from: banecat on Mar 13, 2017, 11:31:44 PM
i am all for david's creation being a new version of something ancient, otherwise the mural makes no sense at all
There are murals of dragons on the walls of British churches, but that doesn't mean that dragons existed.
For all we know, David could have been inspired by Engineer myth, or tried to create a beast from their religion. His amoral android nature could have led him to contemplate bringing monstrous things to life, things that were never meant to exist in reality.
It could be a horrific, reversed version of the events in Galaxy Quest. An outsider mistakes fiction for history and tries to 'recreate' it.
This is a pretty interesting way of looking at it.
The more I look through this thread the more I think giving the Alien an actual origin is the wrong way to go. Destroying the mystery behind them takes a lot away from them imo
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Mar 15, 2017, 01:12:46 PM
The more I look through this thread the more I think giving the Alien an actual origin is the wrong way to go. Destroying the mystery behind them takes a lot away from them imo
Alot has been taken already.
Quote from: Evanus on Mar 14, 2017, 11:04:23 PM
(...) then why does Covenant focus so much on David making his Xenomorphs? They're really hinting at David being their creator. It kind of contradicts what Scott says.
It doesn't necessarily contradict with what Scott says. Why
Covenant focuses on David making Protomorphs? Who else can do it? He is the main antagonist who's got God complex. Because he re-creates (I hope he does) them doesn't make him the creator. I assume that David discovered some ancient knowledge in the Engineer city and acts as obsessed doctor Frankenstein. Considering that Fox abandoned
Prometheus 2 David may be plot tool used by
Covenant writers and Scott to show us how this process of evil creation works. Besides movie doesn't focus entirely on David. We have protagonists as well. It's not just about David and his freak show. It's more than that.
Perhaps the engineers are going to take David's new alien and further improve on it in the third and last movie. I mean they should be really pissed after what David has done, and in their own planet, so double shame on them right
The goal then after improving David's proto-alien on the classic one should be of course to use it on us as retaliation.
The idea behind this is, first based on that pic we some months ago of two engineer on pressure suits examining a classic biomechanical alien contained in an observation tube, and second on Scott's recent line "AI shouldn't be that creative".
So all those who don't like the ide of David creating the classic alien should still breathe a sign of relief. Even then, David created the prototype
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Mar 15, 2017, 01:12:46 PM
The more I look through this thread the more I think giving the Alien an actual origin is the wrong way to go. Destroying the mystery behind them takes a lot away from them imo
No mystery has been destroyed. Paradoxically more mystery has been added to the pot. Do you know who Engineers are? All we really know that they created us and wanted to destroy us by using bio-weapon. That's all. All the rest are just fan theories and speculations. Nothing official.
Quote from: fernandito on Mar 15, 2017, 01:28:20 PM
The idea behind this is, first based on that pic we some months ago of two engineer on pressure suits examining a classic biomechanical alien contained in an observation tube, and second on Scott's recent line "AI shouldn't be that creative".
Is this a thing?
Quote from: fernandito on Mar 15, 2017, 01:28:20 PM
The idea behind this is, first based on that pic we some months ago of two engineer on pressure suits examining a classic biomechanical alien contained in an observation tube, and second on Scott's recent line "AI shouldn't be that creative".
I don't remember seeing anything like this. Do you have the image? A link?
Well, I just re-listened to Wayne Haag's interview and what he says seems to contradict finding out the origin of the species, instead mentioning that's it's more about "found tech". He says there's tonnes of answers and an aspect in regard to the origins. So, presently, I don't know what to make of anything right now given what Haag said. Seriously, everyone should re-listen to that interview.
Quote from: Xenoscream on Mar 15, 2017, 01:51:43 PM
Is this a thing?
Quote from: shawsbaby on Mar 15, 2017, 01:58:54 PM
I don't remember seeing anything like this. Do you have the image? A link?
I think It was Neca advertising, and I think I saw it in this very page in the news section.
It was two engineers on pressure suits looking and a classic alien inside an observation tube
Quote from: Evanus on Mar 14, 2017, 04:30:49 PM
I don't see how they can make two more movies just about David perfecting the Xenomorph. They'll have to include something else to make it more interesting. But what?
I don't know. Maybe I'm completely wrong and they'll still purely focus on David and his creations. I really hope not though.
We've still got to bring in the real Space Jockeys! (I hope :P) Unless something's changed, Scott was still interested in "who made the Engineers" and hopefully the Alien's biomechanical nature will come via the Jockeys and not some combination of the proto-Aliens and David.
Quote from: rotatingenergyfield85 on Mar 14, 2017, 05:42:45 PM
What this 'explanation' fails to address is the fact that the basic genetics of the Xeno are already in existence. The mural and the Deacon are testament to this. David isn't creating anything at all - he's clearly playing around with variations. Look at all the different breeds of dog we have - we're responsible for that through selective breeding. I think this is what David is doing - selective breeding of the 'Morph genome. If he's responsible for the Xeno (which is essentially a Deacon with armor) I think that's actually pretty cool and cruelly ironic at the same time.
This still leaves the question - where did the 'Morphs come from originally. And it also rules out the silly claim that they didn't evolve - the fact that they're adapting to new hosts and environments is what evolution is, through and through.
I'm hoping the later films address this in some fashion or another. I know I've said it previously but Covenant very much seems like Prometheus (Take 2) to me so we're restarting with the more obvious Alien origins.
Quote from: Xenoscream on Mar 15, 2017, 07:01:50 AM
Didn't Ridley recently say something along the lines that an AI can't be originally creative?
He certainly did. I brought that quote up in my news post about it. That's why I think this concept of David recreating or just slightly altering an existing formula has some credibility.
If this is the origin story of the Alien, how come the engineer on LV-426 was fossilized? Wouldn't it have taken longer than ~30 years, for the chestbursted engineer to become a fossil? And therefore, wouldn't that mean the xenomorphs existed prior to the events of Covenant? Since they need a living host to incubate? ???
Quote from: OneWhoLaughs on Mar 15, 2017, 04:34:46 PM
If this is the origin story of the Alien, how come the engineer on LV-426 was fossilized? Wouldn't it have taken longer than ~30 years, for the chestbursted engineer to become a fossil? And therefore, wouldn't that mean the xenomorphs existed prior to the events of Covenant? Since they need a living host to incubate? ???
It was mummified I think. I don't expect these films will lead to the Jockey on LV-426. I suspect it will just be hinted at by other events.
You could argue it already was by the events on LV-223.
Quote from: OneWhoLaughs on Mar 15, 2017, 04:34:46 PM
If this is the origin story of the Alien, how come the engineer on LV-426 was fossilized? Wouldn't it have taken longer than ~30 years, for the chestbursted engineer to become a fossil? And therefore, wouldn't that mean the xenomorphs existed prior to the events of Covenant? Since they need a living host to incubate? ???
I've always assumed the Space Jockey looked fossilized because it was 2,000 years old. I don't think Shaw realizing the outbreak happened 2,000 years ago in the temple was supposed to suggest anything Space Jesus-esque, but rather imply what we saw in
Alien was super old. Coupled with the fact that the Engineers we saw in the big pile all had their chests burst open, I think that's the end of that mystery.
Whether or not they choose to reiterate any of this in future movies, time will tell, but the literal question of who and how old that Jockey was in
Alien was, to my mind, definitively answered in that hologram flashback in
Prometheus. Additionally, I've always thought, size-wise, the dead bodies of the Engineers and the size of the holograms looked much larger than the size of the Engineer who wakes up at the end of the movie, which I can also allow to satisfy the question of how large Engineers are/can be (variations, etc.).
Dallas specifically says it's fossilized, and even if these movies don't directly lead up to the jockey. If the xenomorphs don't yet exist by the time of Alien Covenant, it does not make sense that an engineer would snag some, die/crash on LV-246 and then fossilize in < 30 years. It just doesn't add up.
Quote from: OneWhoLaughs on Mar 15, 2017, 05:41:32 PM
Dallas specifically says it's fossilized, and even if these movies don't directly lead up to the jockey. If the xenomorphs don't yet exist by the time of Alien Covenant, it does not make sense that an engineer would snag some, die/crash on LV-246 and then fossilize in < 30 years. It just doesn't add up.
I know he said fossilised, but it's a good job he was a spaceship captain and not an archaeologist, because it's clearly not a fossil.
I think the line was just a continuity mistake, left over from an older idea they had to save money, when they thought it would be too expensive to do the Space Jockey scene. When they were just going to have Dallas and co find a creature fossilised in the rocks instead.
Quote from: Felipescado on Mar 14, 2017, 11:19:48 PM
as the article says, david might be recreating engineer's experiments, continuing them or "perfecting" them, but being the very creator of the xenomorph species i dont think so, given the deacon in prometheus exists, even if different looking, it already rules out that possibility, and the process, is already shown, an EGG(elizabeth shaw) produces the parasite(trilobite) that impregnates a host(last engineer) and then the creature emerges when ready(deacon and though way bigger and more developed than the usual xenomorphs, iit woulcc be the same case as the runner alien that develops further before bursting out of its host)
question is, WHY, then hwy is he reconstructed, if i were shaw i woudltn even think about letting "it" do the same again(given that he was te one who infected her boyfriend to begin with)
I think the idea is also that we are 'Perfecting' and 'recreating' David in Walter. This isn't a mistake. I think this reflection is what Ridley Scott is interested in. David is recreating/perfecting his creation, much in the same way we are recreating/perfecting the androids. Perhaps the idea is for us to question why we make the changes we do to the David model - to make it LESS human, to make people less uncomfortable. In David's case, he is also making the monster less animal, and more - - ?
I think this is why scott keeps talking about what our creation would create. And who made it and why? I think he is also meaning for us to ask, why we create things the way we do and why would we make the changes we'd make. From David to Walter - Does this make us more like Gods or Monsters? What if our gods wanted to make changes to us? What does that make them? And then trying to suggest that Gods and monsters are created within the same dilemma of the perspective and needs of its creator and not clouded by morality.
If we can just go back and take the humanity out of the Android. What does that make us to the android? A God? A Monster? IN this case DAVID is said to be more human than before. What message is that sending to our creation, if we don't care about taking away its humanity? And how would that affect David's decisions when he decided to create something?
Its interesting.
Isn't is simply possible that on an alien planet with unique atmospheric conditions that fossilization can take place within its own set of physics? Why are we obsessing over what stage of fossilization Dallas claimed he saw on LV-426 --- what if Dallas was completely wrong? What credentials did he have for making that assumption = fact?
The murals are the key -- they are ancient. The Aliens existed for a looooong time as did the Engineers. Occam's Razor my friends.
Furthermore -- in my humble experience on planet earth and in internet forums dedicated to movie franchises -- 98% of all fan theories turn out to be false.
Of course we all have a choice as to what we want to fit in our "head canon" -- Star Wars less so now that Disney rebooted it -- but Alien / Pred ??? There is no reason why, if you don't like whatever turns out to be new in Covenant that you can't simply pretend you died last year and the new mythos additions never existed for you. :P
My guess -- considering the ancient nature of the Engineers and the Goo -- Aliens of all types exist throughout the cosmos.
All David will end up doing is adding the "Mech" to the Bio-Mech. Not creating the Alien from scratch. This actually adds more gravitas [in my opinion] to Shaw wanting to meet her maker. It's a vicious circle of life where makers and "mades" are yinning and yanging from Engineers to Humans / Spores / Aliens to Androids to New Breeds of Aliens who destroy ecosystems until Predators come and wipe them out in order for Engineers to re-seed life on that planet. Easy-peasy, no?
And if, for some odd reason, you are so put off by David having such a major role in things of this nature -- read this: Elon Musk doesn't think it's a stretch at all and even see AI being this ingenious as inevitable.
http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html
Quote from: episodenone on Mar 15, 2017, 06:30:16 PM
Isn't is simply possible that on an alien planet with unique atmospheric conditions that fossilization can take place within its own set of physics?
But the Space Jockey is not a fossil. It's the mummified or skeletal remains of an alien pilot sat in the flight seat of his spacecraft.
Quote from: Dangerous Days on Mar 15, 2017, 06:47:15 PM
Quote from: episodenone on Mar 15, 2017, 06:30:16 PM
Isn't is simply possible that on an alien planet with unique atmospheric conditions that fossilization can take place within its own set of physics?
But the Space Jockey is not a fossil. It's the mummified or skeletal remains of an alien pilot sat in the flight seat of a spacecraft.
Fossilized = Mummified = Skeletalized = Remains --- Until Explicitly Re-Stated by a character with the requisite Scientific / Archaeological knowledge in a Film --- it's just a Mining Crew's opinion that we have.
Quote from: episodenone on Mar 15, 2017, 06:53:36 PM
Quote from: Dangerous Days on Mar 15, 2017, 06:47:15 PM
Quote from: episodenone on Mar 15, 2017, 06:30:16 PM
Isn't is simply possible that on an alien planet with unique atmospheric conditions that fossilization can take place within its own set of physics?
But the Space Jockey is not a fossil. It's the mummified or skeletal remains of an alien pilot sat in the flight seat of a spacecraft.
Fossilized = Mummified = Skeletalized = Remains --- Until Explicitly Re-Stated by a character with the requisite Scientific / Archaeological knowledge in a Film --- it's just a Mining Crew's opinion that we have.
Precisely. You've just made my point for me... 'Appears Fossilized'... It's not a fossil.
Dallas was a spaceship captain not an archaeologist.
Quote from: Dangerous Days on Mar 15, 2017, 07:01:42 PM
Quote from: episodenone on Mar 15, 2017, 06:53:36 PM
Quote from: Dangerous Days on Mar 15, 2017, 06:47:15 PM
Quote from: episodenone on Mar 15, 2017, 06:30:16 PM
Isn't is simply possible that on an alien planet with unique atmospheric conditions that fossilization can take place within its own set of physics?
But the Space Jockey is not a fossil. It's the mummified or skeletal remains of an alien pilot sat in the flight seat of a spacecraft.
Fossilized = Mummified = Skeletalized = Remains --- Until Explicitly Re-Stated by a character with the requisite Scientific / Archaeological knowledge in a Film --- it's just a Mining Crew's opinion that we have.
Precisely. You've just made my point for me... 'Appears Fossilized'... It's not a fossil.
Dallas was a spaceship captain not an archaeologist.
RIGHT ON! And building on your point about ARCHAEOLOGY - Its also a bit ridiculous that people are obsessing over this one line of dialogue because, literally in the same scene Kane says that the Egg Chamber is in 'A Cave of some sort" and nobody has ever obsessed over the idea. and in most cases have blatantly ignored that the character THINKS he is in a "CAVE" but holy crap Dallas said the Space Jockey is "fossilized"
so back the f**k up Ridley Scott.
We accept it because we assume Kane and the rest of them just don't know what they are seeing. They are just speculating.
I like the idea of the Space Jockey and that ship being both a different species than the Engineers and ANCIENT. But that liine of dialogue isn't enough to insist that it can't end up being something else. Lets worry about then writing something good. Not that all the details match your preferred version of what you love.
I could see the canon being expanded to include two 'sub-types' of the same organism.
Much in the same way there are dogs and wolves, the Engineer/David project is the 'dog' of the Xenomorphs - it reproduces by turning people into eggs. Then you could have the real ones that have existed since the beginning of time. The 'Hive'. A superorganism of Lovecraftian mystery and enigma, and was ultimately what the Engineers and David attempted to 'weaponize' or 'recreate', resulting in a second type of Alien. Or it could be that the Engineers and the Space Jockeys are two different species that created/weaponized two versions of the same 'perfect' organism.
Sorry Dangerous Days -- I didn't realize we were agreeing with each other! ;D
CainsSon is right too -- about one thing -- what dialogue we choose to pick at and mull over and discuss for 10, 20, 30 years... And what we somehow ignore. Oddly - we often all seem to pick the same dialogue to nit pick!
However - as far at SJ = Engineer --- or what is being suggested here and there -- that they are not the same... until something incredibly surprising occurs in A:C or whatever comes next -- I think the case is closed and jammed shut. They are one in the same and Zero evidence exists to the contrary.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 15, 2017, 04:22:28 PM
He certainly did. I brought that quote up in my news post about it. That's why I think this concept of David recreating or just slightly altering an existing formula has some credibility.
Ridley is also saying (in every interview) that Covenant will reveal "who created the Alien and why". He said it wasnt the Engineers.
And now there's this new clip about David and the egg....
So that's probably a vain hope, Hicks.
David will be responsible for the eggs in LV-426.
:-X
How they'll link all of this back up to Alien? Well...
The Derelict probably crashed around the same time of the disaster on the LV223 facility...
David will probably travel to LV-426 at some point, find the ship and place the eggs there... he'll probably use the colonists of the Covenant to create the eggs. (there's about 2000 of them in cryo). He might even be the one responsible for setting up the Derelict's distress signal. Sequel to Covenant will probably take place in LV-426.
:-X
Quote from: skhellter on Mar 15, 2017, 07:59:13 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 15, 2017, 04:22:28 PM
He certainly did. I brought that quote up in my news post about it. That's why I think this concept of David recreating or just slightly altering an existing formula has some credibility.
Ridley is also saying (in every interview) that Covenant will reveal "who created the Alien and why". He said it wasnt the Engineers.
Hmmm I don't remember him stating specifically that the engineers didn't create them, did he actually say that?
Quote from: skhellter on Mar 15, 2017, 07:59:13 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 15, 2017, 04:22:28 PM
He certainly did. I brought that quote up in my news post about it. That's why I think this concept of David recreating or just slightly altering an existing formula has some credibility.
Ridley is also saying (in every interview) that Covenant will reveal "who created the Alien and why". He said it wasnt the Engineers.
And now there's this new clip about David and the egg....
So that's probably a vain hope, Hicks.
David will be responsible for the eggs in LV-426.
:-X
How they'll link all of this back up to Alien? Well...
The Derelict probably crashed around the same time of the disaster on the LV223 facility...
David will probably travel to LV-426 at some point, find the ship and place the eggs there... he'll probably use the colonists of the Covenant to create the eggs. (there's about 2000 of them in cryo). He might even be the one responsible for setting up the Derelict's distress signal. Sequel to Covenant will probably take place in LV-426.
:-X
Fascinating take on things and I'm not sure how I feel about that as a full circle with things to the original Alien/Nostromo film, but do we really need two or four or six or however many sequels to Covenant Ridley is planning...can't he just sum it up in the one film after Covenant?
Quote from: 426Buddy on Mar 15, 2017, 08:21:14 PM
Quote from: skhellter on Mar 15, 2017, 07:59:13 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 15, 2017, 04:22:28 PM
He certainly did. I brought that quote up in my news post about it. That's why I think this concept of David recreating or just slightly altering an existing formula has some credibility.
Ridley is also saying (in every interview) that Covenant will reveal "who created the Alien and why". He said it wasnt the Engineers.
Hmmm I don't remember him stating specifically that the engineers didn't create them, did he actually say that?
In one of the set reports Ridley said something along the lines of
"you'll find out who created the Alien and Why...
and if you think They
(meaning the engineers) did it, then you're bloody wrong!"
Quote from: skhellter on Mar 15, 2017, 08:27:34 PM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Mar 15, 2017, 08:21:14 PM
Quote from: skhellter on Mar 15, 2017, 07:59:13 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 15, 2017, 04:22:28 PM
He certainly did. I brought that quote up in my news post about it. That's why I think this concept of David recreating or just slightly altering an existing formula has some credibility.
Ridley is also saying (in every interview) that Covenant will reveal "who created the Alien and why". He said it wasnt the Engineers.
Hmmm I don't remember him stating specifically that the engineers didn't create them, did he actually say that?
In one of the set reports Ridley said something along the lines of
"you'll find out who created the Alien and Why...
and if you think They (meaning the engineers) did it, then you're bloody wrong!"
ah I see, not good news to hear... hopefully its left ambiguous enough for him to change his mind for the next film.
Ah. found it.
http://www.joblo.com/movie-news/alien-covenant-set-visit-3-ridley-scott-billy-crudup-demian-bichir-540
from an interview with Ridley. he said -
They reinvented the idea of ALIEN with PROMETHEUS. And with COVENANT they are taking one step closer to who and why this thing was designed. And if you think it's the beings represented by the giant heads in the Altar room, you're dead wrong.
I still think it's one hell of a coincidence to have the Derelict from Alien with hundreds/thousands of eggs and Covenant to feature a ship that has thousands of colonists in cryo.
Isn't it possible that while the Aliens actually come from some means of "natural selection"?
Not random per se -- but they evolved as nature needed them. The goo and the host create them -- not tinkering in an Engineer lab.
It would be somewhat ironic if the "Engineers" did nothing more than tip that first domino. Might explain why the Engineer in Prometheus looked somewhat surprised at the octopussy.
Not to mention -- it shows how easily the goo can morph in different ways depending on what the host is and what the Mode of Administration of the infection is.
The more appropriate question might be who created the Goo -- or to say it another way that I rarely see used on the boards -- "Primordial Ooze"
Quote from: episodenone on Mar 15, 2017, 09:05:13 PM
Isn't it possible that while the Aliens actually come from some means of "natural selection"?
Not random per se -- but they evolved as nature needed them. The goo and the host create them -- not tinkering in an Engineer lab.
It would be somewhat ironic if the "Engineers" did nothing more than tip that first domino. Might explain why the Engineer in Prometheus looked somewhat surprised at the octopussy.
Not to mention -- it shows how easily the goo can morph in different ways depending on what the host is and what the Mode of Administration of the infection is.
The more appropriate question might be who created the Goo -- or to say it another way that I rarely see used on the boards -- "Primordial Ooze"
Yeah, I think "Who created/first discovered the black goo"? is the more pertinent question.
Quote from: rabidranger on Mar 15, 2017, 09:04:15 PM
I still think it's one hell of a coincidence to have the Derelict from Alien with hundreds/thousands of eggs and Covenant to feature a ship that has thousands of colonists in cryo.
Now that you guys mention it -- I don't think it is a coincidence at all. Though David flying it over might not be the case -- he could have seeded the eggs there after creating them on the new planet and the Engineer thinks he's escaping on the Juggernaut until he gets implanted it crashes and becomes the Derelict.
Seems a strange plan with no real assured long term goal and little chance of success for David to fly a ship to an uninhabited planet in hopes it will will someday be terraformed / colonized or that a mining vessel will stumble upon it.
David won't be there to see what happens -- and his experiment would likely end there as whoever lands would be wiped out with little means to get off-planet.
So if his goal is to exterminate Humans on Earth -- why not send the ship to Earth in the first place? Unless LV-426 was an evolutionary step that "David" intended in order to ultimately weaponize the Alien. I intentionally put David in quotes... But it seems the rationale behind Weyland's trip to meet his maker doesn't really jive with W-Y and Burke's desire to find the perfect weapon.
Though maybe it is the exterminate life on a world rich with resources? The rabbit hole awaits...
Quote from: rabidranger on Mar 15, 2017, 09:09:36 PM
Yeah, I think "Who created/first discovered the black goo"? is the more pertinent question.
Right -- and it seems we are eventually going to get an answer to this. The only other option is to simply write it off to the universe formed and the goo was a by-product --- leaving us to ponder who created the universe. It's like Dr. Hasslein's Theory of Infinite Regression. The Artist Painting the Picture of The Artist Painting the Picture of The Artist Painting the Picture... until it all becomes one.
Quote from: CainsSon on Mar 15, 2017, 07:14:49 PM
RIGHT ON! And building on your point about ARCHAEOLOGY - Its also a bit ridiculous that people are obsessing over this one line of dialogue because, literally in the same scene Kane says that the Egg Chamber is in 'A Cave of some sort" and nobody has ever obsessed over the idea. and in most cases have blatantly ignored that the character THINKS he is in a "CAVE" but holy crap Dallas said the Space Jockey is "fossilized"
so back the f**k up Ridley Scott.
We accept it because we assume Kane and the rest of them just don't know what they are seeing. They are just speculating.
I like the idea of the Space Jockey and that ship being both a different species than the Engineers and ANCIENT. But that liine of dialogue isn't enough to insist that it can't end up being something else. Lets worry about then writing something good. Not that all the details match your preferred version of what you love.
Well said! Couldn't agree more.
Quote from: episodenone on Mar 15, 2017, 07:19:27 PM
Sorry Dangerous Days -- I didn't realize we were agreeing with each other! ;D
My fault!... I think the problem may of been you were expanding on your post, while I was writing my reply. Leaving us both trying our best to disagree on a point we actually agreed on. ;D
Quote from: skhellter on Mar 15, 2017, 07:59:13 PM
He might even be the one responsible for setting up the Derelict's distress signal. Sequel to Covenant will probably take place in LV-426.
:-X
Derelict distress signal was decoded by WY, and clearly spicified the nature of what it was in its cargo. It was a warning signal, not a friendly or sos one, so that can't be David, and I hope It won't be Shaw.
Unless surprise during or at the end of covenant, the classic alien won't still have been made. Just the protype one we see in the trailer
AVP is canon. The Alien is thousands of years old. It was not created by David.
Quote from: howard.moody.566 on Mar 15, 2017, 10:14:24 PM
AVP is canon. The Alien is thousands of years old. It was not created by David.
Eh, I don't think so. Not in Ridley's mind, at least.
Quote from: howard.moody.566 on Mar 15, 2017, 10:14:24 PM
AVP is canon. The Alien is thousands of years old. It was not created by David.
I don't think Scott cares about AVP or AVP:R. I'm pretty sure he doesn't consider them canon, and I'm inclined to agree with him. I think if it were up to Scott, even Aliens wouldn't be canon, but who knows honestly?
AVP is not Alien canon. It's a crossover and Alien vs. Predator franchise.
For me it doesnt matter by that point if Bug Bunny created them. For me, the damage was done by Prometheus. I personally, always loooved the haunting idea that the aliens were some ancient species from millions of years ago that were awaken by the Nostromo crew. Very creepy, mystical, very Lovecraftian. The idea that they were just engineered weapons was always the worst idea possible for me, but thats just a personal preference and taste
Quote from: StrangeShape on Mar 15, 2017, 11:34:26 PM
For me it doesnt matter by that point if Bug Bunny created them. For me, the damage was done by Prometheus. I personally, always loooved the haunting idea that the aliens were some ancient species from millions of years ago that were awaken by the Nostromo crew. Very creepy, mystical, very Lovecraftian. The idea that they were just engineered weapons was always the worst idea possible for me, but thats just a personal preference and taste
Yup! Creepy, mystical, Lovecraftian. That's the stuff.
Quote from: newagescamartist on Mar 15, 2017, 10:22:31 PM
I don't think Scott cares about AVP or AVP:R. I'm pretty sure he doesn't consider them canon, and I'm inclined to agree with him. I think if it were up to Scott, even Aliens wouldn't be canon, but who knows honestly?
He's already admitted that his opinion of the AVP films is purely down to what other people have told him - he's never watched them.
He and Giger both came to think very highly of '
Aliens', however (Giger particularly liked Cameron's Queen design, as it happened).
It seems pretty clear that Covenant is going to set up David as the creator of the true Xenomorph. Not recreating or continuing anything the Engineers were doing... the creatures of Prometheus were aberrations. I also don't think David is hell bent on wiping out humans. In Prometheus he asked "why do you think your people made me," and Holloway replied "we made you because we could."
People keep pointing to the murals in Prometheus, however the parts with the proto hugger and egg aren't even really visible without enhanced screenshots / behind the scene photos. The deacon aspect is easy to miss unless you're looking for it, and even then it is very brief. They aren't part of the narrative and basically only serve as eye candy derived from the original films.
It does leave the door open for future films to retcon Covenant but at this point, I think David will become the creator.
"There's nothing given away in terms of the origin." - Wayne Haag ???
AVP and AVP:R is not canon but that doesn't mean Predator didn't exist.
Fire and Stone comics get some references on Weyland-Yutani Report book that FOX released last year.
Quote from: Predaker on Mar 16, 2017, 01:17:51 AM
It seems pretty clear that Covenant is going to set up David as the creator of the true Xenomorph.
did you forget alien egg in engineer ship on LV-426 ? that ship was crash a least 1000 years.
Quote from: gantarat on Mar 16, 2017, 02:30:11 AM
Quote from: Predaker on Mar 16, 2017, 01:17:51 AM
It seems pretty clear that Covenant is going to set up David as the creator of the true Xenomorph.
did you forget alien egg in engineer ship on LV-426 ? that ship was crash a least 1000 years.
We don't know how long it was crashed there. The implication was that it's ancient (which I personally prefer) but it could have only been there for a relatively few number of years. With Covenant being set about 20 years prior to the Nostromo reaching LV-426, that leaves more than enough time.
If done right script-wise and it fits, I really don't care if David becomes the creator. Yes it takes away the mystery, but let's face it...Prometheus kinda ruined that anyway. :-\ This way it kinda feels like we are building towards new mysteries and fresh lore in the Alien universe. I like it!
I think David sees humanity as a disease bla Agent Smith style. The next few movies are prob centered around stopping him from going to earth, which imo could be fun. Lot's of gore, xeno's, spaceships and betrayal by droids. Bring it!
Just a question to you sci fi fans out there, and i didnt know where to post this.
You guys would like or love the idea that movies like Outland (1981) and Event Horizon, is in the same universe as the alien franchise is? when i look at it, it could fit easily, they both got that industrial space look and feel.
Would be cool to mix these things, especially with Event Horizon being mixed with engineers and other oddwordly things, and the realism of Outland will just work awesome.
Quote from: Infected on Mar 16, 2017, 10:08:55 AM
Just a question to you sci fi fans out there, and i didnt know where to post this.
You guys would like or love the idea that movies like Outland (1981) and Event Horizon, is in the same universe as the alien franchise is? when i look at it, it could fit easily, they both got that industrial space look and feel.
Would be cool to mix these things, especially with Event Horizon being mixed with engineers and other oddwordly things, and the realism of Outland will just work awesome.
Actually i do think that Event Horizon would fit IMO. And that movie should have gotten a sequel. 8)
Quote from: Pvt. Himmel on Mar 16, 2017, 10:14:33 AM
Quote from: Infected on Mar 16, 2017, 10:08:55 AM
Just a question to you sci fi fans out there, and i didnt know where to post this.
You guys would like or love the idea that movies like Outland (1981) and Event Horizon, is in the same universe as the alien franchise is? when i look at it, it could fit easily, they both got that industrial space look and feel.
Would be cool to mix these things, especially with Event Horizon being mixed with engineers and other oddwordly things, and the realism of Outland will just work awesome.
Actually i do think that Event Horizon would fit IMO. And that movie should have gotten a sequel. 8)
Yeah me too, and Outland easily.
What if a sequel would be an AVP movie, and a colonial marines ship goes through the black hole the Event Horizon came through, and a small cloaked predator vessel followed them before the black hole closed, and they both end up at the other side of the galaxy but in a really dark place, where the origins of hell and the xeno's and real space jockey/Giger stuff is.
would be a freakin weird movie with a lot of pain but i think if you want to go to the origins of this you have to reach a level of weird sick things, it cant even be done with an R-rating, you need H-rating as in Hell.
Quote from: Infected on Mar 16, 2017, 10:18:54 AM
Quote from: Pvt. Himmel on Mar 16, 2017, 10:14:33 AM
Quote from: Infected on Mar 16, 2017, 10:08:55 AM
Just a question to you sci fi fans out there, and i didnt know where to post this.
You guys would like or love the idea that movies like Outland (1981) and Event Horizon, is in the same universe as the alien franchise is? when i look at it, it could fit easily, they both got that industrial space look and feel.
Would be cool to mix these things, especially with Event Horizon being mixed with engineers and other oddwordly things, and the realism of Outland will just work awesome.
Actually i do think that Event Horizon would fit IMO. And that movie should have gotten a sequel. 8)
Yeah me too, and Outland easily.
What if a sequel would be an AVP movie, and a colonial marines ship goes through the black hole the Event Horizon came through, and a small cloaked predator vessel followed them before the black hole closed, and they both end up at the other side of the galaxy but in a really dark place, where the origins of hell and the xeno's and real space jockey/Giger stuff is.
would be a freakin weird movie with a lot of pain but i think if you want to go to the origins of this you have to reach a level of weird sick things, it cant even be done with an R-rating, you need H-rating as in Hell.
:)
The irony of this is that the Alien really isn't alien any more. All of its outsider-ish qualities are ultimately the product of human invention. We built David, David built the xenos.
Personally I think that's a retrograde step. The original Alien was a masterpiece of aberrance. Everything about it sent the message that human beings are not the centre of the universe, as we fondly imagined ourselves to be for so long. There are Things out there to whom we are nothing but convenient incubators. As has been said upthread, it was Lovecraftian (and let's not forget that Cthulhu himself appeared in an early draft of the Alien script, in statue form!)
To me the Space Jockey will always be thousands if not millions of years old, and a dessicated skeleton rather than a suit (there are teeth in that elephantine skull for God's sake) but it's Ridley's right to change things if he wants to.
Quote from: Cavalorn on Mar 16, 2017, 11:59:38 AM
The irony of this is that the Alien really isn't alien any more. All of its outsider-ish qualities are ultimately the product of human invention. We built David, David built the xenos.
Personally I think that's a retrograde step. The original Alien was a masterpiece of aberrance. Everything about it sent the message that human beings are not the centre of the universe, as we fondly imagined ourselves to be for so long. There are Things out there to whom we are nothing but convenient incubators. As has been said upthread, it was Lovecraftian (and let's not forget that Cthulhu himself appeared in an early draft of the Alien script, in statue form!)
To me the Space Jockey will always be thousands if not millions of years old, and a dessicated skeleton rather than a suit (there are teeth in that elephantine skull for God's sake) but it's Ridley's right to change things if he wants to.
Don't think David will be 100% responsible for the species, if he's engaged in selective breeding, say, then that still leaves the origins of their genetics a mystery.
Quote from: fernandito on Mar 15, 2017, 09:32:41 PM
Derelict distress signal was decoded by WY, and clearly spicified the nature of what it was in its cargo. It was a warning signal, not a friendly or sos one, so that can't be David, and I hope It won't be Shaw.
You know, I completely forgot about this! You are 100% right. Good call my friend.
As for what is canon / not canon --- that belongs in another thread. Aliens / Predator / Prometheus / [Species] are all in my head canon. Lets all stay out of each others Head Canon's and not derail this very interesting conversation.
On another note -- and I've said this before -- it's crazy how 99% certain everyone knows exactly what the plot of A:C is -- how the story will play out, and what they will do next with further sequels. Jeez -- you guys... can you tell me what stocks to buy too? :/
I mean -- David didn't create these things. The most he can contribute is creating a custom mutation. They can all still be millions, billions, trillions, gazillions years old if you want them to be. 2 Words: "Head Canon" [or in my case... head Cannon]
By the way... just watched a little bit of Prometheus last night -- when the Engineer disintegrates in the beginning prologue -- he sure looks just like the spores from the trailer...
"On another note -- and I've said this before -- it's crazy how 99% certain everyone knows exactly what the plot of A:C is -- how the story will play out, and what they will do next with further sequels. Jeez -- you guys... can you tell me what stocks to buy too? :/"
:D ;D
Quote from: MajorB on Mar 14, 2017, 02:43:47 AM
I honestly don't mind that David made (or re-made) the Xeno. He's a fascinating character, honestly the most well-realized one in the franchise since Ripley, and I think it's great that Covenant basically has an extraordinary villain at its disposal.
Sometimes I wonder if synthetics were the Engineers' intended next step in the evolution of humanity, coming closer to the fusion of the biological and mechanical they seemed to desire, and that's why they saw the biomechanical Giger Xenomorph as a fitting punishment for their failed children. Might explain why the guy at the end of Prometheus looks at David so fondly before he rips his head off... they almost accomplished their goal, if only humans were trustworthy enough to steward their own evolution...
nicely put...i too am interested and looking forward to how this plays out...im confident Ridley Scott will connect the dots from Prometheus to Covenant
It's rather simple. The engineers made the black goo. The neomorph came from them. Then David tinkers with the black goo and pops out xenomorphs from the new crew that show up.
Quote from: genocyber on Mar 16, 2017, 02:18:44 PM
It's rather simple. The engineers made the black goo. The neomorph came from them. Then David tinkers with the black goo and pops out xenomorphs from the new crew that show up.
Yes, but it won't be the xenomorph that we see in the first Alien... That one was Biomechanical and they said that they will be leading into that in the next one.
Yes, as Ridley said, Covenant is "one step closer" to the classic beast, how that will come to be is still up in the air.
Quote from: newagescamartist on Mar 14, 2017, 02:45:58 AM
I'm clearly in the minority here, but if David ends up being the creator of the xenomorph, I think it adds depth to the series. It's not like he's the creator of the black goo or whatever the catalyst is, he's just putting things that have existed for centuries into a new order. The xenomorph clearly has human and synthetic attributes so it's actually pretty logical from a narrative standpoint to have a synthetic create it via experiments, possibly to be a biological container for its consciousness. It was clear after Prometheus that Scott was going for a re-telling of the Gnostic's Fall of Sophia myth and this just adds more credence to that set up. Bring it on. Xenomorphs are no longer just bugs, they're demonic synthetic beasts created by a demi-urge like entity. That's the stuff of nightmares. That's what Giger was tapping into. His Necronomicon is proof that he was more interested in the corruption aspect of spirituality than he was extraterrestrials.
And to ease the frustration a little bit: If this ends up being true, Scott has expanded the Alien universe so other types of extraterrestrials can make appearances down the line. The xenomorph might be a creation of David, but who knows what else is out there. We're going to see a whole lot more if Scott can deliver here. IMO.
lol i never could have put my thoughts into words as eloquently as u did here sir but i agree and applaud this post
David didn't create the first Xenomorphs.
David managed to replicate something the Engineers had already done. Create the perfect organism. Alien has an Acient Engineer ship with eggs in the cargo, and they seem to be placed in order too.
Quote from: fernandito on Mar 15, 2017, 09:32:41 PM
Quote from: skhellter on Mar 15, 2017, 07:59:13 PM
He might even be the one responsible for setting up the Derelict's distress signal. Sequel to Covenant will probably take place in LV-426.
:-X
Derelict distress signal was decoded by WY, and clearly spicified the nature of what it was in its cargo. It was a warning signal, not a friendly or sos one, so that can't be David, and I hope It won't be Shaw.
Unless surprise during or at the end of covenant, the classic alien won't still have been made. Just the protype one we see in the trailer
This thing with the Signal being detected by WY and deciphered. This is very true but from a writing perspective it works both ways. Because of the events in PROMETHEUS - which we know were rather classified - its entirely possible that the Company would tell them ANYTHING to get them there. In fact, having that mission disappear, makes the whole events in Alien with the Company different. We already know they were CREW EXPENDABLE. We know they knew there was an Organism to bring back. But did they think it was the Black Goo? Or did they KNOW it was a xeno. It seems time will tell us that now.
I also hope it isn't David or Shaw, unless they find a good way to handle it. The Black Goo, can infect the Derelict I suppose, they could work it that way, but it does seem like they are heading in the direction we all like, that there may be a Species that the Engineers were modelling their tech off of. Much like the Androids and us, and that one of those is the Space Jockey. A different species than the Engineers.
Quote from: CainsSon on Mar 16, 2017, 03:36:59 PM
This thing with the Signal being detected by WY and deciphered. This is very true but from a writing perspective it works both ways. Because of the events in PROMETHEUS - which we know were rather classified - its entirely possible that the Company would tell them ANYTHING to get them there. In fact, having that mission disappear, makes the whole events in Alien with the Company different. We already know they were CREW EXPENDABLE. We know they knew there was an Organism to bring back. But did they think it was the Black Goo? Or did they KNOW it was a xeno. It seems time will tell us that now.
They did know It was the alien (the end result after human infection by facehugger). Ash confirms this with his iconic line of "Perfect organism, unclouded by blah blah, etc".
We can guess David has been sending reports of their experiments with the black goo to wy during Its stance at Paradise, so "The Company" (hell good times when they called wy like that; I've just remembered about that) should have been well informed even about the black goo via David way before the events of alien.
However, the signal picked by the company (before the events of alien) speaks about the classic creature in detail, plus the serious warning of attempt no investigation of the vessel, so something will still have to happen in the next film after covenant related entirely directly to the Derelict.
All we know is that in Alien, "The Company", wants a retrival of the specimen. Did David then ended up perfecting this proto-thing we see in the trailer into the classic alien?
All I fear is what we saw in awful aliens colonial marines when shooting the jockey is what they eventually have in store for the end of the third film, as the final bridge to alien. Thing would be then.., who was the pilot o the Derelic?. And we can only conclude: If it was a warning signal of attempt no entering this ship, was either Shaw, or a new character that will feature the third and last film. Why did the good engineers then shoot the Derelict down if it was been piloted by someone "good"?
______________________________________________
On a side note, I still have to laugh at the sole idea of any human controlling the ship via chair. Chairs designed for three meters tall bald motherf**kers, and here we are piloting derelicts without trouble lol. Shaw a dwarf = no way. Fassbender another dwarf = no way too. Then?.
They better off explain how the f**k did shaw and David manage to make the ship work at the end of Prometheus, or this is going ot be one of the greatest laughs ever. Not to mention that, even if they come with something..., "credible" for this (impossible), such explanation should still have things like DNA checks or something like against it, since the engineers should make things that way. They're too advanced.
Quote from: Pvt. Himmel on Mar 16, 2017, 02:36:41 PM
Quote from: genocyber on Mar 16, 2017, 02:18:44 PM
It's rather simple. The engineers made the black goo. The neomorph came from them. Then David tinkers with the black goo and pops out xenomorphs from the new crew that show up.
Yes, but it won't be the xenomorph that we see in the first Alien... That one was Biomechanical and they said that they will be leading into that in the next one.
Different details, same beast. The xenos change all the time movie to movie.
Quote from: genocyber on Mar 16, 2017, 06:13:13 PMDifferent details, same beast. The xenos change all the time movie to movie.
It's not the same deal this time. They changed designs in the past (and always for the worse btw), but this is about the biomech layout. That alien we see in the trailer isn't the '79 classic yet, and Scott has hinted that way
Quote from: fernandito on Mar 16, 2017, 04:09:43 PM
Quote from: CainsSon on Mar 16, 2017, 03:36:59 PM
This thing with the Signal being detected by WY and deciphered. This is very true but from a writing perspective it works both ways. Because of the events in PROMETHEUS - which we know were rather classified - its entirely possible that the Company would tell them ANYTHING to get them there. In fact, having that mission disappear, makes the whole events in Alien with the Company different. We already know they were CREW EXPENDABLE. We know they knew there was an Organism to bring back. But did they think it was the Black Goo? Or did they KNOW it was a xeno. It seems time will tell us that now.
They did know It was the alien (the end result after human infection by facehugger). Ash confirms this with his iconic line of "Perfect organism, unclouded by blah blah, etc".
We can guess David has been sending reports of their experiments with the black goo to wy during Its stance at Paradise, so "The Company" (hell good times when they called wy like that; I've just remembered about that) should have been well informed even about the black goo via David way before the events of alien.
However, the signal picked by the company (before the events of alien) speaks about the classic creature in detail, plus the serious warning of attempt no investigation of the vessel, so something will still have to happen in the next film after covenant related entirely directly to the Derelict.
All we know is that in Alien, "The Company", wants a retrival of the specimen. Did David then ended up perfecting this proto-thing we see in the trailer into the classic alien?
All I fear is what we saw in awful aliens colonial marines when shooting the jockey is what they eventually have in store for the end of the third film, as the final bridge to alien. Thing would be then.., who was the pilot o the Derelic?. And we can only conclude: If it was a warning signal of attempt no entering this ship, was either Shaw, or a new character that will feature the third and last film. Why did the good engineers then shoot the Derelict down if it was been piloted by someone "good"?
______________________________________________
On a side note, I still have to laugh at the sole idea of any human controlling the ship via chair. Chairs designed for three meters tall bald motherf**kers, and here we are piloting derelicts without trouble lol. Shaw a dwarf = no way. Fassbender another dwarf = no way too. Then?.
They better off explain how the f**k did shaw and David manage to make the ship work at the end of Prometheus, or this is going ot be one of the greatest laughs ever. Not to mention that, even if they come with something..., "credible" for this (impossible), such explanation should still have things like DNA checks or something like against it, since the engineers should make things that way. They're too advanced.
Now, Im obsessed with ALIEN. Ive seen it maybe 600x - I realize maybe most don't like it as much as I do and it may be true, in the end, that the Company did know specifically about the Alien/Xenomorph. But this thing that Ash says about the creature - the "Perfect Organism unclouded by morality" and etc - He only says this after he studies it and becomes seemingly fixated by it himself. So, because of that language, I'm saying PROMETHEUS has changed the way this can be understood. I dont think that in the film ALIEN it ever explains that the Company had knowledge of this "organism" IN ANY REAL DETAIL. When are you saying this happened? I can't recall any solid indication in the film, past saying that that Special Order was to "bring back organism, all other priorities secondary, crew expendable," that Ash or the Company knew exactly what this organism was. Just that there was an organism. And WEYLAND CORP went to LV223 looking for Life and may have kept record or reported on the organism's they encountered.
So that Prometheus mission on an adjacent moon is arguably already enough to explain the company's knowledge of the existence of an organism they want to obtain in ALIEN. Weyland believed he could obtain eternal life from these beings. Isnt that enough to make 'crew expendable' from a shady business perspective? Id say so.
Im not saying it wont turn out that they knew about the alien... I imagine it will turn out that way and this film alone may make that the case. Im just saying that as of NOW, and after PROMETHEUS, I don't think there is anything explicitly linking their knowledge of an "organism" to the creature itself. Or at least, now that we know, they encountered OTHER creatures on LV223, a moon also orbiting this planet, there is no way to say for sure. To put it another way, Im just saying that PROMETHEUS has created a GREY AREA for how much the company knows about the Alien itself because they only state bring back "organism." There are several things in PROMETHEUS this could account for.
I think we are going to end up understanding why the company wants the Alien in the end, and I think it isn't going to be as black or white as we expect.
Quote from: CainsSon on Mar 16, 2017, 07:02:13 PM
Now, Im obsessed with ALIEN. Ive seen it maybe 600x - I realize maybe most dont like it as much as I do amd it may be true, in the end, that the Company did know specifically about the Alien/Xenomorph, but this thing that Ash says about the creature - "the Perfect Organism unclouded by morality" and etc - He only says this after he studies it and becomes seemingly fixated by it himself. So, what Im saying is PROMETHEUS has changed the way this can be understood. I dont think that in the film ALIEN it ever explains that the Company had knowledge of this "organism" IN ANY REAL DETAIL. When are you saying this happened? I can't recall any solid indication in the film, past saying that that Special Order was to "bring back organism, all other priorities secondary, crew expendable," that Ash or the Company knew exactly what this organism was. Just that there was an organism.
I'm just saying that the Prometheus mission on an adjacent moon is arguable already be enough to explain the company's knowledge of the existence of an organism they want to obtain. Weyland believed he could obtain enternal life from these beings. Isnt that enough to make 'crew expendable' from a shady business perspective? Id say so.
Im not saying it wont turn out that they knew about the alien... I imagine it will turn out that way and this film alone may make that the case. Im just saying that as of NOW, and after PROMETHEUS, I don't think there is anything explicitly linking their knowledge of an "organism" to the creature itself. Or at least, now that we know, they encountered OTHER creatures on LV223, also orbiting this planet there is no way to say for sure. To put it another way Im just saying that PROMETHEUS has created a GREY AREA for how much the company knows about the Alien itself by saying "organism."
I think we are going to end up understanding why the company wants the Alien in the end, and I think it isn't going to be as black or white as we expect.
Coud be too, but If the company wanted the retrival of the specimen and then Ash saying that, then we might interpret that as the proof of David fully reporting about his "Accomplishment" out of the black goo experiments. They should know about the alien then, at least about the proto one we see in the trailer.
If this is not going ot be the case eventually, then all the company knew about the alien is going to come from the pilot of the Derelict, via warning signal deciphering, which then at least would make sense and align itself with the old good lore of the company discovering the warning signal via deep space probe, so we could then with a smile in our faces throw the theory of David reporting WY about his experiment (the alien) down the toilet.
About the planetary system, somebody correct me but I though that, just like in Alien Isolation, the system they visit in Prometheus isn't the same one as in alien, so lv-223 isn't a sister moon to the Acheron. Yeah I know they could have been a little more creative with the gas giant they used this time around hehehe, because it's always one like Jupiter (for the third time then If I'm correct). Next time they should go for something like Neptune or Uranus :)
I LOVE Uranus. So much. So, so much. ;D By far my favorite planet.
Something else worth considering... There is a ~10 year gap between Prometheus and Covenant -- and some of that had to have been recruiting and planning for the colonization mission.
As for David - some of that interim time had to be getting the Juggernaut to the new planet, and then getting set up, then finally getting around to experimenting. Not to mention the time it took to develop a communication system to send messages back to Earth.
THEN there is the fact of how long the sub-space messages would actually take to travel back to Earth.
Meaning -- it may not be within the realm of Physics as we know it for a message to travel and be analysed by the Company [in the midst of massive M&A] to presume any possibility of David's communication with the company or Earth.
They were unable to transmit their messages home in Prometheus -- but who knows why that is the case -- i think it was left unanswered.
Now -- looked at another way -- the Company did believe something was out there --- whether "bugs" a la giant cockroaches -- or The Engineers. So no telling what they thought would be encountered.
Aliens though leads me to speculate they knew something about facehuggers and implantation -- because otherwise why even try to colonize and terraform such a hostile planet like LV-426 when they obviously know of other more hospitable choices -- like Paradise. Then Burke thinking about getting the chestburster through quarantine while implanted...
And given the additional years before the story in Aliens takes place -- transmissions from David and planning out the colonization charade become quite a bit more plausible.
Having David the Android involved in any step of xeno evolution craps it up. Fassbender's dysfunctional droid is not that compelling and makes the whole story too small. Instead of being a story about humans' encounter with this horrific unknown, unknowable force in the universe, the story is reduced to a self-contained corporate conspiracy tale with humans responsible for the whole thing. Saying "the black goo is still mysterious" is like saying "life is still mysterious." We don't know exactly where the spark of life came from. But we know that if a man and a woman have fun together, a baby might follow. Black goo came from a planet with big bald people. We don't know exactly who made black goo, but we do know that adding black goo to living things causes mutations. Just like having fun to make babies, the psychotic android uses goo to make aliens. Since humans made the droid, and since we do understand everything that's being shown on the screen, it's not really so mysterious any more. Plus, it seems likely Shaw is long dead. If the space jockey turns out to be human, it seems more likely Daniels or the pilot guy will be in the derelict. It seems increasingly unlikely the ship has been on LV426 for more than a couple decades.
All that probably works fine, too. First, if humans have been star-faring for a long time with artificial gravity, artificial people, and FTL drive, they surely have the tech to hear an unexpected comm signal. It might take years to reach a receiver, but the receiver would probably recognize it as more than noise. Then it's a question of time for decoding the transmission, deciding what to do, and doing that. The only real question is, will the movie audience spend enough money to fund more sequels to the prequel? As with everything, we'll find out.
On a related note, why do Walter and David look alike? It seems more likely WY would make androids with a wide range of body and appearance options. Plus, the David droid be quite old and dated by the time Covenant rolls around. Two reasons suggest themselves: Saves actor salary and allows David 8 to pull the old switcheroo with Walter in the story. The latter seems more important.
Everything about any movie/book/tv show that is meant to be mysterious instantly becomes less mysterious the moment someone predicts that they already know the entire plot and how it will play out over the course of a series.
Therein lies the rub -- you still have to go to the movie/read the book/watch the tv show if you really want to know what happens.
Not to mention -- once you see it/read it --- the mystery is gone forever. So no reason to ever watch it again. :P
A lot of information about the plot has already been revealed. It seems pretty obvious how it all fits together. I think we've seen all the monsters in this new one and have a pretty good idea where all this is going. Given the lack of creativity in contemporary cinema and the way stuff leaks on the internet, something extraordinary would have to happen to make any of it worthwhile. Mostly, it's a train wreck and provides that sort of entertainment. Watching Prometheus once was more than enough. Maybe this one will be worth a second viewing, maybe not. Plus we know exactly where this ends: Nostromo lands on LV426, Kane gets facehugged. It may, for some reason, take 1 or 2 more movies to finally get there, but that's the destination. This winding path to get there is Ridley's masturbation.
Quote from: episodenone on Mar 16, 2017, 08:17:03 PM
As for David - some of that interim time had to be getting the Juggernaut to the new planet, and then getting set up, then finally getting around to experimenting.
If we pay attention to the scene when the raging engineer boy is about to take off, we can see in the digital array the route he has traced to Earth (the green line that connects his current location, the moon, right to Earth, passing through some planets of our solar system as well), and I guess it's safe to assume he's going to travel through a series of wormhole gateways, meaning the juggernaut or any other engineer ships travel through deep space that way. It shouldn't feel too far fetched to think they have that tech. They're too advanced.
This inevitably means the juggernaut could have arrived on Earth for some cool fashioned black goo atmospheric bombing in just 1 hour or 10 minutes who knows, and turn us all into living jokes of ourselves (Neomorphs probably), though It would be more way more scary to guess what the effects of the goo would be on insects, reptiles, etc, but specially on insects. The situation on Earth would turn into the ultimate nightmare indeed, because If some harmles worm turned into that hammerpede thing, then imagine what an infected wasp may turn into lol
I mean Shaw and David probably arrived at Paradise a few hours, maybe minutes after leaving lv223
Quote from: episodenone on Mar 16, 2017, 08:17:03 PMNot to mention the time it took to develop a communication system to send messages back to Earth.
THEN there is the fact of how long the sub-space messages would actually take to travel back to Earth.
Meaning -- it may not be within the realm of Physics as we know it for a message to travel and be analysed by the Company [in the midst of massive M&A] to presume any possibility of David's communication with the company or Earth.
Please take this just as mere humble fanboy nerd fiction, as even I smile and laugh of myself as I say it hahah, but Engineers as such an advanced race should have already taken control of something called Quantum Entanglement, or at the very least have a varied number of devices based on that concept they may need. Of course not gonna enter the freak concept in detail, but to explain it quickly just in case somebody might not be familiar with what that term means, and to put it simple and quickly explain with a smile this present case, then just understand it as something that would allow instant radio communication regardless you are in the opposite corner of the universe. This is something Einstein already knew about, and already referred to as "spooky action at a distance".
Now remember that David was able to understand engineer language and even their tech in the film Prometheus (hell even how to pilot the damn ship lol). Viola!. We have already explained how he might be able to communicate with The Company without depending on the slow speed of light for radio coms heh
i think it's time to bring in the concept of alternate dimension to the Alien world.
The xenos are actually extradimensional beings. So we are seeing stories about them in 3 different dimensions. Base Alien dimension from the original films, AVP dimension from those films, and the new Prometheus dimension with all these goofy crap.
Each dimension developed the alien in a slightly different way. This way Scott can do whatever he wants with this Prom dimension and he doesnt have to worry about tying it with anything else.
Quote from: DaddyYautja on Mar 16, 2017, 11:32:15 PM
i think it's time to bring in the concept of alternate dimension to the Alien world.
The xenos are actually extradimensional beings. So we are seeing stories about them in 3 different dimensions. Base Alien dimension from the original films, AVP dimension from those films, and the new Prometheus dimension with all these goofy crap.
Each dimension developed the alien in a slightly different way. This way Scott can do whatever he wants with this Prom dimension and he doesnt have to worry about tying it with anything else.
It'd actually be pretty damn cool if a movie explored them being interdimensional. Not necessarily in the extradimensional sense you're talking about, but in the literal way. Covenant and the sequels need to make money before we get a movie like that. But I'm inclined to agree with your sentiment overall. Make all of it canon then the viewer can decide which origin theory they prefer: Ancient and mysterious or manufactured via catalyst. Good thinking.
AVP is canon. The Zenomorph is at least thousands of years old. End of story.
:D
Is it?
Are you sure?
:D
Well, Wayne Haag has confirmed that no one scene is going to reveal the origins of the species, so the press reports are misleading. That said, Chris Seagers has stated that they're edging into the Giger aesthetic; the biomechanical big chap, whether David will be 100% responsible for that remains to be seen.
Quote from: howard.moody.566 on Mar 17, 2017, 06:56:07 AM
AVP is canon. The Zenomorph is at least thousands of years old. End of story.
As far as the current canon is concerned, AvP is not. Scott hates its and purposefully ignores it and retcons aspects of it with Prometheus.
Here's hoping Scott also hates and purposefully ignores and retcons aspects of Cameron's aliens lore, such as the queen, or better anything related to the alien we saw in that wonderful film, and that has been plaguing the series for a decade and one year already.
The alien was once a machine powered by acid, like a walking battery, not a giant space insect controlled by a queen
Anyway I don't think he will have the balls to retcon Cameron and go full Giger with the original alien, and most importantly, with the Derelict, as another biomechanical entity responsible for the creation of the eggs.
Quote from: SrSpinelli on Mar 16, 2017, 03:21:10 PM
David didn't create the first Xenomorphs.
David managed to replicate something the Engineers had already done. Create the perfect organism. Alien has an Acient Engineer ship with eggs in the cargo, and they seem to be placed in order too.
Well there is imo a difference here, the engineers did indeed created something perfect, or lets say they created something,
but im not sure off what the essence was of that creation, was it to serve them, or was it truly a weapon?
One thing is for sure that David created the perfect killing machine, im not so sure the engineers were creating that, or tried to create that.
Maybe a far stretch of what im saying but, its like with our nuke power, we can give countries energy from it for years and years,
yet unstable it could wipe us out, and being fitted into a bomb/rocket it becomes also very dangerous on a war scale.
The murals also show the engineers holding down some type of creation, the face/head part is very hard to see in that mural,
so imo its not a xeno they are holding down.
But then if you jump forward to Alien and the derelict cargo hold they have those eggs, but those eggs are kept in stasis through a laser vibe thingy.
So they are aware of eggs and are able to keep them under control with something.
It could also be that the engineers created a controlable xenomorph, heck maybe even one that thinks for itself and follows their orders, but not one that is untamable and uncontrolable and only lives for the expansion of his "reich" David did just that,
he made an unstopable killing machine.
And it doesnt make sense if a race like the engineers creates creatures that they cant control, so like with the eggs in stasis i think the engineers also are able to control a xenomorph through something, and David just took away that safety pin.
I think we can have the queen and Cameron concepts work, even with Ridleys potential retcons. If, indeed, the alien is a weapon and fabricated with the Black Goo/Accelerant then it stands to reason that changes could happen to the Xenomorph as the Goo mutates and alters.
Perhaps the Xenomorph queen is an evolution that happens because using two hosts via eggmorphing is less efficient than the one host required for an egg laid by a queen. Therefore a much faster propogation rate of the species.
Quote from: Russ840 on Mar 17, 2017, 10:34:28 AM
I think we can have the queen and Cameron concepts work, even with Ridleys potential retcons. If, indeed, the alien is a weapon and fabricated with the Black Goo/Accelerant then it stands to reason that changes could happen to the Xenomorph as the Goo mutates and alters.
Perhaps the Xenomorph queen is an evolution that happens because using two hosts via eggmorphing is less efficient than the one host required for an egg laid by a queen. Therefore a much faster propogation rate of the species.
Offcourse, its just simple evolution theory, these creatures are bred for destruction and domination, its maybe even a genious way that Cameron inserted by introducing the queen.
Im really curious how David came with the egg idea and how Ridley is gonna bypass this Cameron concept.
Cameron turned the aliens into a species. They were things not made by the hand of nature, or God let's say it that way for those who are believers.
The alien was basically an indestructible (regenerated over and over again when hurt or mutilated) machine powered by acid, created by a superior race who probably evolved too and trascended their own organic nature (this leads to the very Derelict ship), and whose sole purpose was to eradicated human beings, apparently.
The mystery of the Derelict being another biomech entity that produced the aliens (the eggs) was what truly elevated the also mystery of the alien to actual satisfying levels, not reducing the alien to a natural species similar to insects, controlled by a hive minds, regardless they are weapons or not.
Each one to their own anyway. One of the good things of the alien universe was, precisely, how open It's always been to speculation. Some of us oldest fans saw it the Giger's way to perfectly fit what the creature looked like by '79 The younger generations preferred Cameron's simple approach. Ok that's fine too I guess
Anyways, everything points out to the possibility (Scott' new lore for alien) that our "Nature Boy" David has come to stay, so..
I am loving the deeper parallels between David and Ash that this plot point reveals. For me, Ash's admiration of the alien takes on a a few extra dimensions if the alien was actually engineered by another AI.
David's concept of a mother echoes back to Ash's concept of rape.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 17, 2017, 01:26:21 PM
I am loving the deeper parallels between David and Ash that this plot point reveals. For me, Ash's admiration of the alien takes on a a few extra dimensions if the alien was actually engineered by another AI.
David's concept of a mother echoes back to Ash's concept of rape.
Yes -- I agree and was thinking the same thing.
I also love Aliens and I thought RS and JC were actually friendly enough to have considered making a sequel together. They certainly are fans of Androids in general.
I don't see RS looking to Retcon out anything from Aliens -- but perhaps the other movies are all on the table for recon-ability.
Quote from: howard.moody.566 on Mar 17, 2017, 06:56:07 AM
AVP is canon. The Zenomorph is at least thousands of years old. End of story.
Yes - the Z enomorph is -- but the X enomorph is not. Problem solved. ::)
The inter dimensional idea I thought was made tongue in cheek -- it is not remotely possible and would be a distraction from the story.
@ fernandito and to miracles of Space Travel that the Engineers should be privy to -- I'll admit any of that is certainly possible. Lightspeed is Lightspeed -- and I think that even if the Juggernaut was able to travel wormholes -- I don't think it works a la Battlestar Gallactica.
And David's transmissions still might be subject to our understanding of Physics unless the Juggernaut communication systems are able to be re-configured. But that would take time in any case I would bet.
Oh -- I never noticed that there was a line on the map showing that route particularly. I'll need a screenshot or to look again later.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 17, 2017, 08:51:30 AM
Quote from: howard.moody.566 on Mar 17, 2017, 06:56:07 AM
AVP is canon. The Zenomorph is at least thousands of years old. End of story.
As far as the current canon is concerned, AvP is not. Scott hates its and purposefully ignores it and retcons aspects of it with Prometheus.
he hates it so much that Prom is basically a remake of AVP.
actually, what exactly did Prom retcon? Prom doesnt deal with the xenos, it just deals with the Jocks.
Quote from: DaddyYautja on Mar 17, 2017, 08:41:28 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 17, 2017, 08:51:30 AM
Quote from: howard.moody.566 on Mar 17, 2017, 06:56:07 AM
AVP is canon. The Zenomorph is at least thousands of years old. End of story.
As far as the current canon is concerned, AvP is not. Scott hates its and purposefully ignores it and retcons aspects of it with Prometheus.
he hates it so much that Prom is basically a remake of AVP.
actually, what exactly did Prom retcon? Prom doesnt deal with the xenos, it just deals with the Jocks.
Prometheus is only a remake of AvP if you pull way back and look at the basic plot structure and also have an agenda to promote, like that AvP isn't as bad as everyone thinks. In anycase that basic plot structure has been done many times in other films and literature (ATMoM anyone?). Its akin to saying Aliens is just a remake of Alien because plotwise they hit many of the same beats. It's really a tired and silly debate since Prometheus and AvP are very different film experiences in the same way that Alien and Aliens are very different experiences.
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Mar 17, 2017, 08:47:00 AM
Well, Wayne Haag has confirmed that no one scene is going to reveal the origins of the species, so the press reports are misleading. That said, Chris Seagers has stated that they're edging into the Giger aesthetic; the biomechanical big chap, whether David will be 100% responsible for that remains to be seen.
*Breathes guarded sigh of relief.*
Quote from: 426Buddy on Mar 17, 2017, 08:49:34 PM
Quote from: DaddyYautja on Mar 17, 2017, 08:41:28 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 17, 2017, 08:51:30 AM
Quote from: howard.moody.566 on Mar 17, 2017, 06:56:07 AM
AVP is canon. The Zenomorph is at least thousands of years old. End of story.
As far as the current canon is concerned, AvP is not. Scott hates its and purposefully ignores it and retcons aspects of it with Prometheus.
he hates it so much that Prom is basically a remake of AVP.
actually, what exactly did Prom retcon? Prom doesnt deal with the xenos, it just deals with the Jocks.
Prometheus is only a remake of AvP if you pull way back and look at the basic plot structure and also have an agenda to promote, like that AvP isn't as bad as everyone thinks. In anycase that basic plot structure has been done many times in other films and literature (ATMoM anyone?). Its akin to saying Aliens is just a remake of Alien because plotwise they hit many of the same beats. It's really a tired and silly debate since Prometheus and AvP are very different film experiences in the same way that Alien and Aliens are very different experiences.
Sure there are "narrative structure" which are similar (and to be honest that's probably why Prometheus is nothing of an original thing) but there are many many many elements that just seems to be very similar and aren't featured in at the mountain of madness or any similar film in that regard.
-Ego-centric multi billionaire weyland who wants to be immortal and mark history.
-People go quickly on an adventure by an ellipse without knowing anyone (explained in AVP, left aside in Prometheus)
-People get trap in a maze (especially the two people who were the opposite of each other and started on the wrong foot)
-Protagonist boyfriend goes full suicide
Ya know... that kind of stuff I don't remember being in at the mountain of madness :D
Well thats true only if you strip away all the details that make they two films vastly different, and over simplify the similar events so they sound even more similar, then yeah the films will look more like eachother than they really are.
The films are as different as they are similar and very different experiences, especially thematically and in tone. Neither are very good experiences unfortunatly.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Mar 18, 2017, 02:23:25 PM
Well thats true only if you strip away all the details that make they two films vastly different, and over simplify the similar events so they sound even more similar, then yeah the films will look more like eachother than they really are.
The films are as different as they are similar and very different experiences, especially thematically and in tone. Neither are very good experiences unfortunatly.
there's no over simplifying anything, like it was said, rich dying dude going off to explore some alien place. The aliens are an ancient culture that has been messing with man for a long time and they appear in several different societies. The place they are exploring is off near nowhere and they are alone. Heck, there are even shots that looks similar. Some dude throwing flares down a tunnel looks like Fifield throwing up his mapping balls. Finding a freaking pyramid. come on.
Sure, they are in different settings are there are different conversations,etc, but those two films are essentially the same at their base. And the point im saying is that Scott hates those so movies so much yet he used same structure on this Prom film. I find that humorous. That's like saying you hate burrito but you like quesadillas. They are essentially the same thing! It's just one folded like a tube.
At least we can all agree AVP is non canonical and never, ever coming back.
their might be similariries in the plot stucture, but in my view it was unintentional. .and prometheus just did it with so much more penache and class. .it's way more sophisticated than avp. .sorry but how anyone can even dare compare the 2 . .prometheus had some problems. . But it was one classy peace of sci fi. .and i am not looking to start a debate cause their has been a million on here by now.. .so i agree to disagree with those who hated it. .different strokes for different folkes. .for me avp was moderately enjoyable. .but largely forgettable. .same goes for avpr. .i enjoyed those movies. .but forgot about them the moment i walked out of the cinema. .prometheus will always have this lingering effect on me. .
The Xenomorph already exists. Their purpose is probably to terraform planets. The Temple in Prometheus is a Deacon. In the comic fire and stone, Deacon from Prometheus ends up turning into a live Mountain. I believe that the xenomorph Mural at the beginning of the movie shared a similar fate. The cycle goes like this:
Black goo - infects host-> Proto-facehugger - Host -> Deacon/Neomorph
In Prometheus:
Black goo - Biologist-> .... (Notice the hammerpedge went straight into the dude's mouth? It went in to lay an embryo in him.)
Black goo - Shaw's womb -> Proto-FH - Host (Engineer) -> Deacon
In Covenant:
Black goo - plants -> Plant spores - Host (Humans) -> Neomorphs
Xenomorphs are originally organic. David will "perfect" them by adding the mechanical aspect. After all, David is a synthetic. ;)
Queen (Perhaps Shaw will play a part in this) -> Eggs -> Host -> Proto-Xenomorph
^ Looks like in Covenant, we get to see David implement the female reproductive system into the Xenomorph's lifecycle with Shaw's eggs then he will implement the synthetic part later.
The xenomorph is an ancient beast that comes from the black goo. David improves upon it by including 2 aspects. Human female reproductive system (We know engineers are all male so how did the xenomorph end up with a queen & eggs?) and synthetics into the Alien creature to create the Beast we all know and love.
This is a theory btw.
Quote from: Alien Runner on Mar 19, 2017, 11:06:03 AM
The Xenomorph already exists. Their purpose is probably to terraform planets. The Temple in Prometheus is a Deacon. In the comic fire and stone, Deacon from Prometheus ends up turning into a live Mountain. I believe that the xenomorph Mural at the beginning of the movie shared a similar fate. The cycle goes like this:
There could be a possibilty that thats true, but will it come with a docking bay for the engineer ships?
i can see a relation between organic vessels and structures, its one thing that is depicted in most movies, the aliens create some sort of own infrastructure, they do it in Aliens and in..... uhh so the eggs the engineer touches are the deacons kidneys? oh let me open the cargo bay by tickling your kidneys.
It could work, but i dont think its the direction Ridley will head, but i do believe in organic mixed with tech in due time, even in our world.
I'm in agreement with Daddy Yautja here. And Juxtapose, you are totally trying to start the debate. You can have that Prometheus was classy, but it was also crap. To be blunt, AVP did some things flat out better than Prometheus. *shrug*
Seems debatable tbh
I think the black goo turns things into xenomorphs and david is trying to perfects it mixing it with different life forms. maybe all the xenomorph is, is the the result of the goo on a spore pod. Or maybe the black goo is a synthesized version of the neomorph spores, that turns things into xenomorphs and by mixing it with the original neomorph it turns into a bigger version ( eggs and huggers are just muted sporpods and spors.
Quote from: SpeedyMaxx on Mar 20, 2017, 02:53:29 AM
Seems debatable tbh
It's already been debated to death. But we can always spin it around one more time. :P
I'd rather eat glass.
If this happens.
Its bad.
Really bad.
The eggs on the ship from LV-426 were suppose to be there for thousands of years. Is Ridley trying to retcon that too?
Wasn't retconing the space jockey suit enough for him?
f**k, and we thought no one could damage the aliens more than the Strauses.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Mar 20, 2017, 11:23:11 PMThe eggs on the ship from LV-426 were suppose to be there for thousands of years. Is Ridley trying to retcon that too?
Presumed to of been there for thousands of years. The crew didn't perform any tests on the ship or the pilot. "Looks like it's been dead a long time" doesn't say much, and it certainly wasn't "fossilised". None of them had any real clue.
Not disagreeing that it would suck though.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 20, 2017, 11:39:07 PM
Presumed to of been there for thousands of years. The crew didn't perform any tests on the ship or the pilot. "Looks like it's been dead a long time" doesn't say much, and it certainly wasn't "fossilised". None of them had any real clue.
Not disagreeing that it would suck though.
It have been considered to be very old since 1979, I think that was what the writers intended, even Ridley probably thought the same at that time, just like how the space jockey wasn't intended to be an albino giant dude.
Dammit I would prefer to see the Strauses avp3 idea of preds hunting dinosaur sized aliens on their homeworld than this crap. :laugh:
At least they wouldnt f**k with the derelict ship or the space jockey.
Weren't the very jockey concept and also the very derelict-type ship both retconned in Prometheus already?
Quote from: fernandito on Mar 21, 2017, 07:21:23 AM
Weren't the very jockey concept and also the very derelict-type ship both retconned in Prometheus already?
No.
Indeed they were. That was the whole point of that movie.
The original xenomorphs were created to terraform planets for the Engineers to live in. The Mural in Prometheus is an ancient xenomorph. Yes, the temple is alive. In Fire and Stone, we know the fate of Deacon. It turned into a huge living mountain. David will add the mechanical part into the xenomorph because he is a synthetic. I think David will end up like Elden in Fire and Stone. He turns into a synthetic Engineer but he ends up becoming a victim of his own creation which leads us to the big fossilized Engineer in Alien 1.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 21, 2017, 08:13:04 AM
Indeed they were. That was the whole point of that movie.
Wait, which question are you answering?
fernandito's.
I don't care at this point, just like how I never imagined Darth Vader to be a whiny kid, whatever you build up in your imagination will always be better than what filmmakers come up with.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 21, 2017, 08:13:04 AM
Indeed they were. That was the whole point of that movie.
What? No. And even more no.
Quote from: LCpl. D. Grant on Mar 21, 2017, 01:10:34 PMWhat? No. And even more no.
I don't remember the Jockey in Prometheus being something grown out of the chair. Or the juggernaut ship featuring organic hallways, and probably being another biomech-organism, like the Derelict probably was if we stick, strictly, to Giger's vision of his own creation.
Also, I don't remember console controls and chairs in the Derelict pilot chamber.
Quote from: fernandito on Mar 21, 2017, 01:34:51 PM
Quote from: LCpl. D. Grant on Mar 21, 2017, 01:10:34 PMWhat? No. And even more no.
I don't remember the Jockey in Prometheus being something grown out of the chair. Or the juggernaut ship featuring organic hallways, and probably being another biomech-organism, like the Derelict probably was if we stick, strictly, to Giger's vision of his own creation.
Also, I don't remember console controls and chairs in the Derelict pilot chamber.
It's doesn't appear that the Juggernaut is the same ship as the Derelict so there is room for variances. However it was Prometheus's intention to retcon the Space Jockey into the Engineers.
Quote from: fernandito on Mar 17, 2017, 12:20:07 PM
Cameron turned the aliens into a species. They were things not made by the hand of nature, or God let's say it that way for those who are believers.
The alien was basically an indestructible (regenerated over and over again when hurt or mutilated) machine powered by acid, created by a superior race who probably evolved too and trascended their own organic nature (this leads to the very Derelict ship), and whose sole purpose was to eradicated human beings, apparently.
The mystery of the Derelict being another biomech entity that produced the aliens (the eggs) was what truly elevated the also mystery of the alien to actual satisfying levels, not reducing the alien to a natural species similar to insects, controlled by a hive minds, regardless they are weapons or not.
Each one to their own anyway. One of the good things of the alien universe was, precisely, how open It's always been to speculation. Some of us oldest fans saw it the Giger's way to perfectly fit what the creature looked like by '79 The younger generations preferred Cameron's simple approach. Ok that's fine too I guess
Anyways, everything points out to the possibility (Scott' new lore for alien) that our "Nature Boy" David has come to stay, so..
When was the alien depicted as indestructible, or able to regenerate, or powered by acid? I never saw that in any of the movies. When was the Derelict show as being biomech? Furthermore, when was the ship show producing eggs? I think you're in la la land
A lot of people have misconceptions when it comes to Alien.
Quote from: mexicoisfun on Mar 21, 2017, 02:52:25 PM
Quote from: fernandito on Mar 17, 2017, 12:20:07 PM
Cameron turned the aliens into a species. They were things not made by the hand of nature, or God let's say it that way for those who are believers.
The alien was basically an indestructible (regenerated over and over again when hurt or mutilated) machine powered by acid, created by a superior race who probably evolved too and trascended their own organic nature (this leads to the very Derelict ship), and whose sole purpose was to eradicated human beings, apparently.
The mystery of the Derelict being another biomech entity that produced the aliens (the eggs) was what truly elevated the also mystery of the alien to actual satisfying levels, not reducing the alien to a natural species similar to insects, controlled by a hive minds, regardless they are weapons or not.
Each one to their own anyway. One of the good things of the alien universe was, precisely, how open It's always been to speculation. Some of us oldest fans saw it the Giger's way to perfectly fit what the creature looked like by '79 The younger generations preferred Cameron's simple approach. Ok that's fine too I guess
Anyways, everything points out to the possibility (Scott' new lore for alien) that our "Nature Boy" David has come to stay, so..
When was the alien depicted as indestructible, or able to regenerate, or powered by acid? I never saw that in any of the movies. When was the Derelict show as being biomech? Furthermore, when was the ship show producing eggs? I think you're in la la land
Fernandito's clearly watching a different movie or creating his own cut.
Quote from: mexicoisfun on Mar 21, 2017, 02:52:25 PM
Quote from: fernandito on Mar 17, 2017, 12:20:07 PM
Cameron turned the aliens into a species. They were things not made by the hand of nature, or God let's say it that way for those who are believers.
The alien was basically an indestructible (regenerated over and over again when hurt or mutilated) machine powered by acid, created by a superior race who probably evolved too and trascended their own organic nature (this leads to the very Derelict ship), and whose sole purpose was to eradicated human beings, apparently.
The mystery of the Derelict being another biomech entity that produced the aliens (the eggs) was what truly elevated the also mystery of the alien to actual satisfying levels, not reducing the alien to a natural species similar to insects, controlled by a hive minds, regardless they are weapons or not.
Each one to their own anyway. One of the good things of the alien universe was, precisely, how open It's always been to speculation. Some of us oldest fans saw it the Giger's way to perfectly fit what the creature looked like by '79 The younger generations preferred Cameron's simple approach. Ok that's fine too I guess
Anyways, everything points out to the possibility (Scott' new lore for alien) that our "Nature Boy" David has come to stay, so..
When was the alien depicted as indestructible, or able to regenerate, or powered by acid? I never saw that in any of the movies. When was the Derelict show as being biomech? Furthermore, when was the ship show producing eggs? I think you're in la la land
The whole idea is that it is "alien" and we cannot understand the full reach of it's biomechanical nature. One of the reasons the film has inspired equal intellectual debate and the usual, is because Scott and the filmmakers included all sorts of maybes, in the details of ALIEN, so you can see it in a very straightforward manner but also interpret more. This is one of the ways its such a smart movie. There are all kinds of things in the interaction between the text of the script and the design interacting with the characters and the text, and also subtext, that add a depth to it. Scott has spoken in a good deal of detail over the years addressing this stuff. The freudian elements to Giger's work and how the Alien makes the male a female when it reproduces etc etc. The Biomechanics arent treated any differently. There are hints the Alien may be communicating with the ship and naming the computer 'Mother' is no mistake.
So the Biomechanics are just another piece of that - ambiguous AND deliberate.
The Space Jockey was supposed to be an Engineer after Prometheus, but they also LEFT
SOME ROOM to ponder here, because Shaw and the films is asking "Who made them?" It is possible to consider that the Space Jockey's are a race the Engineers modeled themselves off of, but overall if you want things to be straight forward, its an Engineer in a suit, and I do think that was intended. Although now, it seems they may change that.
"God does not build in straight lines." - Holloway
I say, beware of trying to force an animal to walk a straight line, that is meant to roam free.
So basically you can pretty much read anything into the ambiguity of alien?
I know that Scott, O'Bannon, and the producers never intended the creature to be indestructible, far from it actually. Anyone who has spent time on the Strange Shapes blog will know that ;).
I really dislike that "God doesn't build in straight lines" quote. Straight lines occur in nature all the time.
Perhaps it pleased the Gods that the Engineers modelled themselves in their image, or perhaps it was a matter of possessing the image of the Gods, along with stealing their technology; great impostures.
Man, I'd kill to see something like this -
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-3l5puVY2WLk%2FVktIbp3JoxI%2FAAAAAAAAAkg%2F_toOgqahiIM%2Fs1600%2FVT_DetIIbl.jpg%25257Eoriginal.jpg&hash=c0b6fbaa2a944c34f8e458b2a2d8e1a35e2e7f22)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/19/f0/b6/19f0b68bddbeed79b3bc2df998601c95.jpg)
Quote from: 426Buddy on Mar 21, 2017, 03:44:18 PM
So basically you can pretty much read anything into the ambiguity of alien?
I know that Scott, O'Bannon, and the producers never intended the creature to be indestructible, far from it actually. Anyone who has spent time on the Strange Shapes blog will know that ;).
I really dislike that "God doesn't build in straight lines" quote. Straight lines occur in nature all the time.
Its a metaphor. Its not meant to be taken literally. That's the point. That humans have a flawed need to take things literally and make them seem more controlled.
Ambiguity doesn't imply that you can read
ANYTHING into Alien. I didn't say that. Come on. I said the ambiguous parts are meant to be ambiguous.
I didnt say the alien is indestructible. That was someone else. I was just trying to mediate.
When I first saw Alien, I thought the monster seemed to have 'evolved' in deep time to perfectly hunt space travellers. Like all of its defenses evolved to make it this perfect space pest. I never imagined it as a weapon or a creature with a place of origin. I liked the idea of this being that's evolution made it strictly to complicate space travel.
(https://narrativeinart.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/hr_giger_satan_i1.jpg)
Quote from: Pvt. Himmel on Mar 21, 2017, 03:50:32 PM
(https://narrativeinart.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/hr_giger_satan_i1.jpg)
Not exactly subtle Giger - but case, and point about 'subtext.' ;D
Here's hoping that the Cathedral/Citadel has some Giger delights...
Quote from: CainsSon on Mar 21, 2017, 03:56:45 PM
Quote from: Pvt. Himmel on Mar 21, 2017, 03:50:32 PM
(https://narrativeinart.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/hr_giger_satan_i1.jpg)
Not exactly subtle Giger - but case, and point about 'subtext.' ;D
Very true. :)
I think Ash's description of the xenomorph is definitive:
"You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility."
The question that arises and that Scott seem to want answer is who would create such a thing and why?
Quote from: CainsSon on Mar 21, 2017, 03:32:51 PM
Quote from: mexicoisfun on Mar 21, 2017, 02:52:25 PM
Quote from: fernandito on Mar 17, 2017, 12:20:07 PM
Cameron turned the aliens into a species. They were things not made by the hand of nature, or God let's say it that way for those who are believers.
The alien was basically an indestructible (regenerated over and over again when hurt or mutilated) machine powered by acid, created by a superior race who probably evolved too and trascended their own organic nature (this leads to the very Derelict ship), and whose sole purpose was to eradicated human beings, apparently.
The mystery of the Derelict being another biomech entity that produced the aliens (the eggs) was what truly elevated the also mystery of the alien to actual satisfying levels, not reducing the alien to a natural species similar to insects, controlled by a hive minds, regardless they are weapons or not.
Each one to their own anyway. One of the good things of the alien universe was, precisely, how open It's always been to speculation. Some of us oldest fans saw it the Giger's way to perfectly fit what the creature looked like by '79 The younger generations preferred Cameron's simple approach. Ok that's fine too I guess
Anyways, everything points out to the possibility (Scott' new lore for alien) that our "Nature Boy" David has come to stay, so..
When was the alien depicted as indestructible, or able to regenerate, or powered by acid? I never saw that in any of the movies. When was the Derelict show as being biomech? Furthermore, when was the ship show producing eggs? I think you're in la la land
The whole idea is that it is "alien" and we cannot understand the full reach of it's biomechanical nature. One of the reasons the film has inspired equal intellectual debate and the usual, is because Scott and the filmmakers included all sorts of maybes, in the details of ALIEN, so you can see it in a very straightforward manner but also interpret more. This is one of the ways its such a smart movie. There are all kinds of things in the interaction between the text of the script and the design interacting with the characters and the text, and also subtext, that add a depth to it. Scott has spoken in a good deal of detail over the years addressing this stuff. The freudian elements to Giger's work and how the Alien makes the male a female when it reproduces etc etc. The Biomechanics arent treated any differently. There are hints the Alien may be communicating with the ship and naming the computer 'Mother' is no mistake.
So the Biomechanics are just another piece of that - ambiguous AND deliberate.
The Space Jockey was supposed to be an Engineer after Prometheus, but they also LEFT SOME ROOM to ponder here, because Shaw and the films is asking "Who made them?" It is possible to consider that the Space Jockey's are a race the Engineers modeled themselves off of, but overall if you want things to be straight forward, its an Engineer in a suit, and I do think that was intended. Although now, it seems they may change that.
"God does not build in straight lines." - Holloway
I say, beware of trying to force an animal to walk a straight line, that is meant to roam free.
Your response doesn't address my questions.
When was the alien shown to be indestructible?
When did the alien regenerate?
What evidence shows the alien is powered by acid?
When was the derelict ship shown to be biomech?
When was the alien ship shown producing eggs?
Your response is basically "You can interpret anything because in Alien we cannot understand the full reach of it's biomechanical nature". Well if we can't understand it, then we certainly can't jump to conclusions regarding ships producing eggs, indestructible aliens, regeneration and anything like that. We can only base our understanding on the facts presented in the films. Anything else is fan fiction and speculation until proven canon.
Regarding your Space Jockey/Engineer comments. I don't like the retcon RS did with these guys. Maybe there is another race that is the giant "Space Jockey" seen in Alien, or maybe they are just Engineers in suits who somehow shrunk in size. I don't like the meddling RS is doing mainly because I don't see Alien as his creation. The story is all O'Bannon and his brain child.
If RS really gave a crap he would have kept technology roughly the same between the prequels and Alien.
Quote from: rabidranger on Mar 21, 2017, 04:19:28 PM
I think Ash's description of the xenomorph is definitive:
"You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility."
The question that arises and that Scott seem to want answer is who would create such a thing and why?
You admire it?
Quote from: rabidranger on Mar 21, 2017, 04:19:28 PM
I think Ash's description of the xenomorph is definitive:
"You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility."
The question that arises and that Scott seem to want answer is who would create such a thing and why?
Well the answer is David. Scott is a fool. He made Prometheus with the strong belief that it would share the same DNA as Alien, but would be it's own stand alone thing, because he wanted to stay away from Alien but still tell a story in the same universe. Prometheus ending up being a crap movie and instead of sticking to his guns and continuing Prometheus we get a sequel with XENOS everywhere. We don't need to know who created them and why. It's much more terrifying when the Alien is shrouded in mystery.
And to top it off we have Alien Awakening with is a prequel to a sequel of a prequel of Alien.
Quote from: mexicoisfun on Mar 21, 2017, 04:35:04 PM
Quote from: rabidranger on Mar 21, 2017, 04:19:28 PM
I think Ash's description of the xenomorph is definitive:
"You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility."
The question that arises and that Scott seem to want answer is who would create such a thing and why?
Well the answer is David. Scott is a fool. He made Prometheus with the strong belief that it would share the same DNA as Alien, but would be it's own stand alone thing, because he wanted to stay away from Alien but still tell a story in the same universe. Prometheus ending up being a crap movie and instead of sticking to his guns and continuing Prometheus we get a sequel with XENOS everywhere. We don't need to know who created them and why. It's much more terrifying when the Alien is shrouded in mystery.
And to top it off we have Alien Awakening with is a prequel to a sequel of a prequel of Alien.
I don't agree. I want to know who created the xenomorph and why. As for David, it's clear he has only refined an organism that the Engineers were already familiar with.
That's my fear I really don't like the new space jockeys 10 feet blue guy just is not right and David starting it all is just wrong
Quote from: mexicoisfun on Mar 21, 2017, 04:35:04 PM
Quote from: rabidranger on Mar 21, 2017, 04:19:28 PM
I think Ash's description of the xenomorph is definitive:
"You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility."
The question that arises and that Scott seem to want answer is who would create such a thing and why?
Well the answer is David. Scott is a fool. He made Prometheus with the strong belief that it would share the same DNA as Alien, but would be it's own stand alone thing, because he wanted to stay away from Alien but still tell a story in the same universe. Prometheus ending up being a crap movie and instead of sticking to his guns and continuing Prometheus we get a sequel with XENOS everywhere. We don't need to know who created them and why. It's much more terrifying when the Alien is shrouded in mystery.
And to top it off we have Alien Awakening with is a prequel to a sequel of a prequel of Alien.
That's not been confirmed
at all. And calling Scott a fool is a bit silly, don't you think? We should be thankful to him for making more Alien movies.
The ship made the eggs. No, no proof of that at all. But it would be quite interesting. Then, the derelict could be some sort of self-contained, living, space-traveling hive or factory. Of course, the Space Jockey really would be grown into the ship's structure. Then how would things fit together? So many possibilities...
Quote from: mexicoisfun on Mar 21, 2017, 04:35:04 PM
Quote from: rabidranger on Mar 21, 2017, 04:19:28 PM
I think Ash's description of the xenomorph is definitive:
"You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility."
The question that arises and that Scott seem to want answer is who would create such a thing and why?
Well the answer is David. Scott is a fool. He made Prometheus with the strong belief that it would share the same DNA as Alien, but would be it's own stand alone thing, because he wanted to stay away from Alien but still tell a story in the same universe. Prometheus ending up being a crap movie and instead of sticking to his guns and continuing Prometheus we get a sequel with XENOS everywhere. We don't need to know who created them and why. It's much more terrifying when the Alien is shrouded in mystery.
And to top it off we have Alien Awakening with is a prequel to a sequel of a prequel of Alien.
Let me guess... IMDB right.
Quote from: mexicoisfun on Mar 21, 2017, 04:35:04 PMScott is a fool.
make sure you look at yourself in the mirror before naming others.
Put it this way. What are you compared to Scott.
Tone is down, gentlemen. There's no need to go at each other.
Quote from: episodenone on Mar 17, 2017, 01:49:17 PM
And David's transmissions still might be subject to our understanding of Physics unless the Juggernaut communication systems are able to be re-configured. But that would take time in any case I would bet.
This should prove that David is sending reports to "The Company", or at least he's sent one only, due to limits of speed of light on long distances:
http://hollywoodvideo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Prometheus-Infographic.jpg
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi68.tinypic.com%2F25tukjk.jpg&hash=e8e8f851927b7382bd628539149c41e8c7b08cc0)
He seems to have bombed Paradise with the black shit in certain key planetary locations, at the very least three. The method seems to be atmospheric bombing, for then the chemical spreads through air and humidity, infecting the entire planet, as It is reported by the middle of that file. Full planetary infection successful, even the seas. Well It reads "99%".
He's using either Engineer communication tech from the Citadel/wherever place he's found in the planet or from the Juggernaut directly.
Depending on how far Paradise is from Earth, then we should learn:
a) If he's sent a single report using simple radio webs to the company during his long 10 years pressence there (then paradise should not be further than 6 or seven years)
b)If he's using engineer's quantum entanglement tech he can find over there, then he must be sending continuos reports, firtst the planetary infection spread/outcome, and thenreports on his own investigation on the black goo
I guess it's safely to assume the company knew of the organism in "Alien" thanks to David. What remains to be seen in the last film is:
a) What version of the alien was The Company informed/aware of?
b)Who's the iconic Space Jockey of the Derelict?
- Edited: I'm starting to think after learning of this, that perhaps David hasn't bombed the planet on his own volition because he's a curious nature boy wanting to experiment on the goo, specially if the communication between David and the company has been fluent and fast enough, thanks to engineer tech he should be able to find at the Citadel, the juggernaut, wherever in that planet.
Maybe The Company ordered him to bomb the planet. The evil Company in the classic alien films, remember?. First, as a pre-emptive war action against the engineers, just in case they resumed their old 2000 years old evil plan on us; and second, of course for testing purposes of the chemical, testing it on full planetary scale, as it was probably meant to be this weapon of mass destruction, and terror.
Even the later experiments David seems to have been through on the engineers with the goo might have been issued directly by WY directive, after he reported of his arrival at the planet
Prometheus stole fire from The Gods, and gave it to men. Then men, their own creation, used their own weapon, fire, against them. Paradise lost
Those images were used to market Prometheus, along with other dubious info on the Weyland site. They don't prove David contacted the company at all. Besides which, why would he send that to the company? It doesn't make sense or fit the narrative. After Weyland dies, David is beholden to no one and he knows this.
The planet you see (two images of it) in the file seems to resemble paradise, and since it reads WY-classified report filled by Synthetic blah at the button, then we can conclude it's been made by David, reporting about his ongoing experiments on the planet to The Company.
Then we can clearly read about the eventual effects of a full planetary infection with the goo throughout a six month timespan, as well as a basic primary report on the very balck goo effects prior planetary attack. That has to be David's report on his experiments at Paradise.
Then in '79 alien we know the company knew of the alien and wanted a retrival. I know it's a bit premature to come to these conclusions, but we can more or less safely assume that they knew of the alien because of David's continuos reporting on his experiments.
I'd like to think from now on until we can finally watch covenant, that The company ordered the bombing and the subsequent experiments.
Thing is..., did he bomb the good engineers instead of the bad ones from Prometheus?, because if we continue to not forget about the hologram saw in the awful alien colonial marines game when shooting the jockey, and If that's what Scott eventually has y in store for the third and final film that serves as a bridge to alien, then he might have bombed the wrong engineers :), I mean the good ones if two factions really exist
Quote from: fernandito on Mar 22, 2017, 01:13:37 PM
Thing is..., did he bomb the good engineers instead of the bad ones from Prometheus?, because if we continue to not forget about the hologram saw in the awful alien colonial marines game when shooting the jockey, and If that's what Scott eventually has y in store for the third and final film that serves as a bridge to alien, then he might have bombed the wrong engineers :), I mean the good ones if two factions really exist
I forgot about that easter egg and had to look it back up. The saucer does look similar to the one from the beginning of Prometheus...maybe?
Quote from: JokersWarPig on Mar 22, 2017, 01:48:19 PM
I forgot about that easter egg and had to look it back up. The saucer does look similar to the one from the beginning of Prometheus...maybe?
Then was The Derelict shot down 2000 years ago by the good engineers, with the aliens already developed by the very bad ones?, or is it what Scott has in store for the third film, and what it's going to happen more or less by the end of it? (I think the thrid film will end with Ash re-assignment to the Nostromo while they are docked at the mining moon at Thedus).
If the former, then the derelict was the first ship to take off and set route to Earth, stationated probably at lv-223 and below another temple where another weapon that it was not the deacon (the classic alien), was being developed too for its use on us, for then being intercepted by the good engineers in the nearby space, near the Acheron Moon, and crash over there.
If the later, since it seems the engineers hadn't developed even the proto-alien as It seems to be David's creation, and the derelict is going to be shot down in the next film (not 2000 years ago), then who was the derelict pilot?. It has to be another bad engineer because it was shot down according to the hologram. It can not be Shaw or someone good trying to scape with the aliens to hide them somewhere else where no one can find them.
The problem with the later possibility, is that the signal was a warning, and a bad engineer isn't supposed to send that kind of warning..., confusing I know. Writers and Scott will have to deal with this, although I'm sure they already have the answer or a plan for this, just like the image above kind of proves that the bombing and the events that are going to happen in the sequel to Prometheus, Covenant, were already planned if not at the same time of doing prometheus, then little later (in the deleted scenes David speaks of Paradise, so writers and Scott were already on it, hence we were given those classified WY files, I think).
Engineers will sure appear alive and kicking in the last third film. That's almost assured, because if neither the proto-alien nor the classic weren't made by the engineers but by David or whatever more it's added next, then sure the Derelict will appear in the next film, and wasn't another of the ships stationed at lv-223, because they didn't have the alien, we can presume
I hadn't seen that report before. Interesting. My question is what is David's motive in working with the Company? Is he just going along to ensure that they send the Covenant so he can have some more lab rats? It doesn't appear there's any love lost where humanity is concerned.
Quote from: rabidranger on Mar 22, 2017, 03:56:17 PM
I hadn't seen that report before. Interesting. My question is what is David's motive in working with the Company? Is he just going along to ensure that they send the Covenant so he can have some more lab rats? It doesn't appear there's any love lost where humanity is concerned.
It is perhaps, worth noting, that David was 'programmed' by Weyland and thus the Company, and while it seems he has been entirely liberated, there may be some desire to report back to W-Y on his part.
Quote from: CainsSon on Mar 22, 2017, 04:00:26 PM
Quote from: rabidranger on Mar 22, 2017, 03:56:17 PM
I hadn't seen that report before. Interesting. My question is what is David's motive in working with the Company? Is he just going along to ensure that they send the Covenant so he can have some more lab rats? It doesn't appear there's any love lost where humanity is concerned.
It is perhaps, worth noting, that David was 'programmed' by Weyland and thus the Company, and while it seems he has been entirely liberated, there may be some desire to report back to W-Y on his part.
That's true. That seemed to be what influenced Ash's actions.
The image was from the Prometheus facebook page 4 years ago. Apparently the company went to LV-223 to find out what happened with the project failure.
"Declassified: In researching the aftermath of Project Prometheus, Weyland Industries managed to uncover an information manual written by the Engineers concerning a chemical agent found by the Prometheus crew. Linguistic components from the original document translated by a Weyland Industries' cybernetic individual."
Quote from: Predaker on Mar 22, 2017, 07:35:51 PM
The image was from the Prometheus facebook page 4 years ago. Apparently the company went to LV-223 to find out what happened with the project failure.
"Declassified: In researching the aftermath of Project Prometheus, Weyland Industries managed to uncover an information manual written by the Engineers concerning a chemical agent found by the Prometheus crew. Linguistic components from the original document translated by a Weyland Industries' cybernetic individual."
I dont care where we've read this, unless it was IN the film and without a shred of doubt at that, as far as Ridley Scott, Fox and any writer is concerned, it's not canon.
Quote from: CainsSon on Mar 22, 2017, 08:21:59 PM
Quote from: Predaker on Mar 22, 2017, 07:35:51 PM
The image was from the Prometheus facebook page 4 years ago. Apparently the company went to LV-223 to find out what happened with the project failure.
"Declassified: In researching the aftermath of Project Prometheus, Weyland Industries managed to uncover an information manual written by the Engineers concerning a chemical agent found by the Prometheus crew. Linguistic components from the original document translated by a Weyland Industries' cybernetic individual."
I dont care where we've read this, unless it was IN the film and without a shred of doubt at that, as far as Ridley Scott, Fox and any writer is concerned, it's not canon.
Well if it had been featured in a trailer or on disc with commentary from Ridley it would hold some weight for discussion but that was the point when I first mentioned it was part of the internet marketing of Prometheus. It doesn't hold any weight, much less prove that David contacted the company. The description with the image itself states the company gathered this knowledge from an engineer "info manual."
Special Order 937 is finally making some sort of sense.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Mar 23, 2017, 02:01:57 PM
Special Order 937 is finally making some sort of sense.
What, like kill all the Jedi?
lol
Personally, i love the idea of what David is/will be doing in Covenant. Artificial intelligence made by man (man playing god) creating something horrific (xenos) to counter man's indiscressions is poetic imo. As for people trying to disprove the merits if this story arch with facehuggers being on the mural in Prometheus, I think thats a reach. The design cant even be seen in the film and i honestly think it was more of a tribute to Giger because they didnt really use his concepts and didnt want to cut his involvement all together.
If David is the creator of the 'Original Xenomorph' I hope we get to see it and its not played off screen.
I'd also like to see an Elden kind of transformation, be it Shaw or David. It was a great concept in Fire and Stone, just executed poorly.
Quote from: Predaker on Mar 22, 2017, 08:45:08 PM
Quote from: CainsSon on Mar 22, 2017, 08:21:59 PM
Quote from: Predaker on Mar 22, 2017, 07:35:51 PM
The image was from the Prometheus facebook page 4 years ago. Apparently the company went to LV-223 to find out what happened with the project failure.
"Declassified: In researching the aftermath of Project Prometheus, Weyland Industries managed to uncover an information manual written by the Engineers concerning a chemical agent found by the Prometheus crew. Linguistic components from the original document translated by a Weyland Industries' cybernetic individual."
I dont care where we've read this, unless it was IN the film and without a shred of doubt at that, as far as Ridley Scott, Fox and any writer is concerned, it's not canon.
Well if it had been featured in a trailer or on disc with commentary from Ridley it would hold some weight for discussion but that was the point when I first mentioned it was part of the internet marketing of Prometheus. It doesn't hold any weight, much less prove that David contacted the company. The description with the image itself states the company gathered this knowledge from an engineer "info manual."
Yeah. I think that when it surrounds the film, as in special features or in a disc menu, websites, and the like, or viral marketing and etc - I think they should be more careful about this stuff. They certainly don't intend to reference it in the films/make it canonical. With Prometheus, my take on all that stuff in the menus and on the blu-ray, is that Fox heard feedback about stuff not making sense and tried to make the Blu-Ray include 'answers' of some sort, and that's why all this varied info was thrown in. I take it with a fine grain of salt.
Quote from: hfeldhaus on Mar 28, 2017, 03:15:03 PM
I'd also like to see an Elden kind of transformation, be it Shaw or David. It was a great concept in Fire and Stone, just executed poorly.
Yeah, I'd really dig seeing something like that on screen. It's just begging to be done with all the black goo shenanigans. Hopefully it'll look something truly Giger-esque.
Quote from: Neomorph on Mar 13, 2017, 11:44:37 PM
This is sounding less and less plausible.
We already have a mural show that xenos existed already and I've already pointed out its physically impossible to have a handful of xeno eggs.
1) That is not a Xenomorph. It is either a Neomorph, Protomorph, a Deacon, or an ancient species of alien with similar structure.
2) "Handful", as in
several. Not literally a "hand full of eggs". Was it really that hard for you to figure out?
3) Check the trailer with the Face Hugger jumping out and look who is standing in the background.
4) It was revealed by Ridley Scott himself. Accept it.
Goodbye.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 29, 2017, 09:18:59 AM
Quote from: hfeldhaus on Mar 28, 2017, 03:15:03 PM
I'd also like to see an Elden kind of transformation, be it Shaw or David. It was a great concept in Fire and Stone, just executed poorly.
Yeah, I'd really dig seeing something like that on screen. It's just begging to be done with all the black goo shenanigans. Hopefully it'll look something truly Giger-esque.
What is this Elden transformation, do you have pictures?
Regarding the xenomorph mural in Prometheus, I think the only reason that it's in the movie is because it was made for a previous version of the script in which the creature already existed in its final form, and that they didn't bother to replace it as a lot of work probably went into it and they were not even sure where they would be going with the story in possible sequels.
However, if after the next few movies in this series EVERYTHING (who knows, maybe they did have an ingenious master plan!) in Prometheus makes sense, I will eat my hat and post pictures of me doing so.
Quote from: CainsSon on Mar 22, 2017, 08:21:59 PM
Quote from: Predaker on Mar 22, 2017, 07:35:51 PM
The image was from the Prometheus facebook page 4 years ago. Apparently the company went to LV-223 to find out what happened with the project failure.
"Declassified: In researching the aftermath of Project Prometheus, Weyland Industries managed to uncover an information manual written by the Engineers concerning a chemical agent found by the Prometheus crew. Linguistic components from the original document translated by a Weyland Industries' cybernetic individual."
I dont care where we've read this, unless it was IN the film and without a shred of doubt at that, as far as Ridley Scott, Fox and any writer is concerned, it's not canon.
i thus shall hold this claim, to which i agree, exactly 100% similar to the derelict still being intact. and no, i don't need another 'lecture' from SM.
the movies are canon.
If you choose in any way to believe that the mural was there because they simply didn't remove it... you're just not seeing the forest for the trees.
I know we all like debating every last piece of this ad nauseum -- but Occam's Razor -- the mural exists because the Engineers at some point are aware of the fact that some form of Alien exists or existed.
Whatever happens in this movie does not change that. Nor is there any reason to force that to be the case.
On a separate note:
Maybe the Prologue to Prometheus happens on a planet with no life because of what the goo does when it corrupts something already alive. The Engineers were there to create a Hellish world.
We still have to presume that regardless of what planet that actually is - The Engineers met Earthlings and at some point were encouraging them to visit outer space. Considering that they were inviting humans that had barely discovered fire -- how would they know who to expect down the road?
Why are they reveling this now???? i had suspected that was David and not Walter that you see in that bit in the trailer but still its a pretty big spoiler to give away at this stage
Quote from: DerelictShip on Apr 05, 2017, 02:41:15 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 29, 2017, 09:18:59 AM
Quote from: hfeldhaus on Mar 28, 2017, 03:15:03 PM
I'd also like to see an Elden kind of transformation, be it Shaw or David. It was a great concept in Fire and Stone, just executed poorly.
Yeah, I'd really dig seeing something like that on screen. It's just begging to be done with all the black goo shenanigans. Hopefully it'll look something truly Giger-esque.
What is this Elden transformation, do you have pictures?
It's from the Fire and Stone comic arc. Elden was a synthetic infected by the black goo.
It's starts off promising...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.readcomics.tv%2Fimages%2Fmanga%2Fprometheus-fire-and-stone%2F3%2F20.jpg&hash=ff8e0f8648bc07ef88dedff5e846a9d54be869cb)
Then ends up disappointing....
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwickedhorror.thunderroadinc.netdna-cdn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F06%2Favp-fire-stone-flesh-guy.jpg&hash=937cafd801a6997a565832da4b93f4f47cc1dd86)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5LNJ6yGYwY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5LNJ6yGYwY)