A lot of people would consider Alien Vs Predator (2004) to not have a winner, but i don't think this is the case since a Predator managed to take down the Alien queen at the end. Sure, he did it with the help of a human being, and a Xenomorph ended up beating Predator in a fight, but in the end, the Predator race was the last one standing.
Yay ?
Quote from: karbomike on Nov 01, 2021, 03:02:12 PM
but in the end, the Predator race was the last one standing.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GentleJaggedFlea-size_restricted.gif)
But always remember, whoever wins...we lose
5 Star response!
Voodoo you are batting a 1000 today! :laugh:
It was? I appear to remember a Predalien making it on-board the ship at the end. That in of itself kind of emulates the main plot of Alien. And we know where that eventually leads.
Alexa won.
The first draft of AvP 2 had the cringey line of "The Predators won Antarctica, but the Aliens win Texas!" after the Aliens kill the Predator shortly before they all get blown up.
Quote from: Darwinsgirl on Nov 01, 2021, 05:10:11 PM
5 Star response!
Voodoo you are batting a 1000 today! :laugh:
Wohoo! Thanks DG! I told y'all I was witty! ;D
Quote from: karbomike on Nov 01, 2021, 03:02:12 PM
in the end, the Predator race was the last one standing.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/predalien-chestburster.jpg)
BuT iT's a hyBrId
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xKVOnW3Ylp8/WAJl1CWqw5I/AAAAAAABuLY/pfvxPVrRXJckhHNZdYPFVIf4pm_ykktWgCLcB/s1600/avpbu9.gif)
Quote from: SiL on Nov 01, 2021, 07:09:00 PM
The first draft of AvP 2 had the cringey line of "The Predators won Antarctica, but the Aliens win Texas!" after the Aliens kill the Predator shortly before they all get blown up.
Ahahaha, should've put that on the poster :D
Quote from: SiL on Nov 02, 2021, 12:52:50 AM
BuT iT's a hyBrId
It wasn't ?
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 01, 2021, 04:53:14 PM
Quote from: karbomike on Nov 01, 2021, 03:02:12 PM
but in the end, the Predator race was the last one standing.
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GentleJaggedFlea-size_restricted.gif
But always remember, whoever wins...we lose
Em, excuse me ...
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/2d7055bd193f1d9854bb4fac14b5e098/8b41071b04a4e929-6c/s400x600/ece79cd705dda2b2c9686db676cdcdbf07f60fc9.gifv)
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PeskyIllegalChuckwalla-max-1mb.gif)
It's as much a hybrid as a human Alien or an animal one.
But what if I wanna call these two hybrids too ? And what about DNA reflex ?
Quote from: Master Chief on Nov 01, 2021, 07:05:29 PM
Alexa won.
Despite the tagline. That's showbiz, folks!
Quote from: Kradan on Nov 02, 2021, 02:58:35 PM
But what if I wanna call these two hybrids too?
Then you might need to go back to the black goo if you're wanting to purity spiral the beast.
QuoteAnd what about DNA reflex?
It gives me BLT reflux
The only Predator win occurs on account of the tie-in videogame where Wolf is able to escape before the nuke making him technically the only living film Predator.
The crossover films end in at best a draw each time as both combatants die in their respective films.
The Predalien does appear at the end of the first film but it doesn't take part in the events of the first film meaning while the Aliens do have 1 last bug standing, it's only relevant towards the sequel.
Considering Aliens infesting hosts to infiltrate new locations is one of their strategies, and Scar got hugged during the course of the fight, you can easily argue that the PredAlien means the Aliens ultimately won. The only thing to survive the hunt was an incubating Alien.
Yeah Predators went with intent to:
-Create a hunt with the plasmacasters.
-Get new blooded Predators out of the affair.
-Likely reset the hunting grounds for further use.
Instead all the Predators died, the hunting grounds became unsalvageable, and an Alien got onboard their own ship!
Penguins won.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-IZWudF6sj3k%2FVhCWkN02qbI%2FAAAAAAAAPUw%2FHmwN4rXvvKU%2Fs1600%2FButters.JPG&hash=cb280894ae21a6ae982d522599e0516f61e2e5dd)
The penguin f**king died, Rich :'(
I personally want to know how that African Penguin got to Antarctica in the first place.
Quote from: SiL on Nov 03, 2021, 02:17:47 AM
The penguin f**king died, Rich :'(
(https://c.tenor.com/swmU1DU_71IAAAAC/lord-of-the-rings-fantasy.gif)
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Nov 03, 2021, 02:24:14 AM
I personally want to know how that African Penguin got to Antarctica in the first place.
Clearly Predators brought them.
Well didn't you know the Predators even built the whaling station themselves as just one more piece to their elaborate trophy hunting plans?
;D Scar was definitely friendzoned and was only needed to escape. It's good he never knew what a teenage broken heart felt like.
Hey, if not for the Queen he and Lex would've had long French kiss !
Quote from: Kradan on Nov 03, 2021, 03:38:09 PM
Hey, if not for the Queen he and Lex would've had long French kiss !
It's not called kissing any more if they have a pussyface.
A Predator is yet to win in a movie.
Ok but the sheer number of aliens killed compared to how many Predators killed in both films its very clear, at least to me...the Predators definitely won. In the second film especially.
Quote from: (Bad Blood) on Nov 03, 2021, 11:43:50 PM
Ok but the sheer number of aliens killed compared to how many Predators killed in both films its very clear, at least to me...the Predators definitely won. In the second film especially.
By your logic, the Axis won the battle of Stalingrad.
It's absolutely not a matter of highest kill count.
Well technically nobody actually won is really my point when coming to this conclusion, so since nobody was left standing the side that lost the least amount of forces presumably would be the winner here. Since they are all dead at the end there isn't actually a winner so I'm using that to make a guess at who would qualify at this point.
They're not all dead though.
Who was alive at the end of either film? I don't count the Predalien, it was not apart of the battle in the first film. In the second film everyone dies. They get nuked.
The PredAlien counts. Infecting a host undetected is one of the Aliens' methods of survival. It worked; the offspring escaped the temple to weak havoc elsewhere.
But if one of the species being alive counts in the end then it's a million Predators on their planet and 1 predalien on a ship full of Predators, Predators win. Lol
Quote from: [cancerblack] on Nov 03, 2021, 10:08:06 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Nov 03, 2021, 03:38:09 PM
Hey, if not for the Queen he and Lex would've had long French kiss !
It's not called kissing any more if they have a pussyface.
*dirty sounds of pleasure*Quote from: Wweyland on Nov 03, 2021, 10:44:43 PM
A Predator is yet to win in a movie.
Well, Royce and Isabelle are both still stuck on Preserve Planet at the end of Predators. Does that count ?
Quote from: (Bad Blood) on Nov 04, 2021, 07:02:28 AM
But if one of the species being alive counts in the end then it's a million Predators on their planet and 1 predalien on a ship full of Predators, Predators win. Lol
What ?
What ?
[/quote] As in if we are counting non combatting aliens and Predators in AVP and there's a lot more Predators alive at the end of AVP than aliens...There is a whole crew of Predators on that ship, then Predators win in the end in number of aliens killed compared to Predators and in the amount of Predators alive compared to aliens at the end. In the next AVP requiem we see a whole planet of Predators, i guess Alien covenant made it clear apparently that aliens don't have a home world. So therefore there are more Predator survivors at the end of AVP and AVP Requiem than alien survivors.
Quote from: (Bad Blood) on Nov 04, 2021, 07:02:28 AM
But if one of the species being alive counts in the end then it's a million Predators on their planet and 1 predalien on a ship full of Predators, Predators win. Lol
No. Scar was impregnated by Aliens in the course of the hunt. That action taken by the Aliens was done so
during the conflict and forms part of their "tactics", such as they have them. The Predators on the ship weren't part of the hunt at all.
Quote from: (Bad Blood)
Alien covenant made it clear apparently that aliens don't have a home world.
A:C and AvP aren't exactly compatible, as of right now.
But the predalien itself was not involved in the fight either. I don't count impregnating and chestbursting as a tactical move of any kind, it's just to advance the species, it's not like it was a plan layed out by the facehugger, they don't really have that kind of reasoning skill. It's not really a fight between two individuals. If we are being honest the only Alien vs Predator legitimate battles that would even count as such were between grid and chopper and Celtic and scar and every other alien and scar and the queen.
You're taking tactics too literally. The only way to beat the Aliens is to wipe out the adults and stop them breeding - the Predators failed at that.
If you only want to count the direct conflicts, the Queen won the last one before being killed by Lex.
I suppose I am hahaha. Very true, that she did.
Yep, predator did win. Celtic kicked Grid's ass and basically won the the actual fight and had it dead to rights. Unfortunately Celltic being slow and taking his time is what allowed Grid to kill him, otherwise he would have been able to finish him.
For this scenerio I don't include the sneak attacks, plasma kills or help from a human either, only a simple 1v1 predator v Alien melee fight.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 27, 2021, 12:53:38 PM
Yep, predator did win. Celtic kicked Grid's ass and basically won the the actual fight and had it dead to rights. Unfortunately Celltic being slow and taking his time is what allowed Grid to kill him, otherwise he would have been able to finish him.
For this scenerio I don't include the sneak attacks, plasma kills or help from a human either, only a simple 1v1 predator v Alien melee fight.
Celtic was winning, but failed to achieve something far more important than throwing Grid around a bit and that was preserving his own life. He lost.
Scar was the successful one and won most of the battles, but ultimately, lost the war.
The facehugger that implanted its embryo in Scar is the real MVP.
When the snow settled after the first movie, I had it Aliens and Alexa tied for first and the Predators with the loss.
"Whoever wins, we lose"
Quote from: Master Chief on Dec 27, 2021, 05:17:18 PM
Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 27, 2021, 12:53:38 PM
Yep, predator did win. Celtic kicked Grid's ass and basically won the the actual fight and had it dead to rights. Unfortunately Celltic being slow and taking his time is what allowed Grid to kill him, otherwise he would have been able to finish him.
For this scenerio I don't include the sneak attacks, plasma kills or help from a human either, only a simple 1v1 predator v Alien melee fight.
Celtic was winning, but failed to achieve something far more important than throwing Grid around a bit and that was preserving his own life. He lost.
Scar was the successful one and won most of the battles, but ultimately, lost the war.
The facehugger that implanted its embryo in Scar is the real MVP.
When the snow settled after the first movie, I had it Aliens and Alexa tied for first and the Predators with the loss.
I would say Celtic won the battle but lost the war so to speak. He beat Grid in a fight but was too cocky to actually finish it properly.
Then he lost, period.
In a battle of life and death it doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile.
Killing isn't the same as winning, dying isn't the same as losing. I could kick the crap out of someone and having them beaten to the ground, I could then get stabbed when I turned my back, I still won the actual fight. even if I died, he still lost the fight even if he killed me. Conversely judges and refs can name a victor even if the two fighters are still able to continue fighting. It isn't as simple as living and dying, black or white.
I agree with SiL.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 27, 2021, 09:12:27 PM
Killing isn't the same as winning, dying isn't the same as losing.
When it's a fight to the death it is literally the victory condition to be the one left alive.
This wasn't a fencing or boxing match where you're scoring points for strikes. Celtic wasn't killed by a third party. The two of them were in a fight to the death and one of them died. That person was the loser. That person was Celtic.
Yeah and then the Alien gets on board the spaceship from the derelict temple... and we know where that goes.
I was talking about the actual fight itself, not the final result of the encounter between them. Different strokes for different folks I guess, I was coming at this as a fighter.
As a fighter myself, I'd say Celtic dominated the fight, but lost it indeed. So many times I saw fighters dominate an opponent, only to get knocked out because they were being cocky or reckless.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 27, 2021, 11:12:09 PM
I was talking about the actual fight itself, not the final result of the encounter between them. Different strokes for different folks I guess, I was coming at this as a fighter.
The end was
part of "the actual fight itself"? It wasn't over until one was dead. Again, this isn't a sports match. There are no points for strikes or grapples or throws. There was no referee saying when the fight was over.
And even if it were a sports match, if someone's TKO'd you typically don't declare them the winner because they were dominating beforehand.
It's not like Grid cheated or something. It used it natural strength and acidic blood to get free from the nets. Celtic died not because he was backstabbed (Chopper was but that's a whole different story) but because he was arrogant sonuvabitch who decided to show off taking his time to deliver the final blow
Exactly. Celtic could have won the fight, totally. He had Grid tied down and defenseless. But a decision he made during the fight cost him his life, and in a fight to the death, it doesn't matter how well you did; what matters is whether you come out alive or not.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Dec 27, 2021, 11:35:53 PM
As a fighter myself, I'd say Celtic dominated the fight, but lost it indeed. So many times I saw fighters dominate an opponent, only to get knocked out because they were being cocky or reckless.
Agreed, once Grid got netted Celtic technically won the battle, but due to his sheer stupidity, he cost himself the war so to speak. "
Winning a battle but losing the war is a military mental model that refers to achieving a minor victory that ultimately results in a larger defeat, rendering the victory empty or hollow. It can also refer to gaining a small tactical advantage that corresponds to a wider disadvantage." https://fs.blog/winning-battle-losing-war/
"
win the battle, but lose the war
To achieve a minor success or victory, but lose or fail to achieve a larger, more important, or overarching goal, especially when that larger failure is at least partly due to the smaller victory. The phrase is often split into two halves across different parts of a sentence to achieve its meaning."
The minor victory here is Celtic dominating and beating Grid. The larger defeat is that by beating Grid, Celtic become suicidally overconfident resulting in his death and his victory being hollow.
Spoiler
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/036/876/better-1.jpg)
Celtic and Nethead talk
Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Dec 28, 2021, 02:44:24 PM
Spoiler
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/036/876/better-1.jpg)
Celtic and Nethead talk
Which one is which? :laugh: ;D
Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 28, 2021, 01:27:36 PM
Agreed, once Grid got netted Celtic technically won the battle,
He didn't kill Grid so technically he didn't win anything. The fight wasn't over until one of them was dead. "Won the battle but lost the war" really does not apply here.
Scar wins several battles against Aliens but ultimately loses the war. Celtic lost his battle and contributed to the Aliens winning the war.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 28, 2021, 08:11:34 PM
Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 28, 2021, 01:27:36 PM
Agreed, once Grid got netted Celtic technically won the battle,
He didn't kill Grid so technically he didn't win anything. The fight wasn't over until one of them was dead. "Won the battle but lost the war" really does not apply here.
Scar wins several battles against Aliens but ultimately loses the war. Celtic lost his battle and contributed to the Aliens winning the war.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 27, 2021, 12:53:38 PM
Yep, predator did win. Celtic kicked Grid's ass and basically won the the actual fight and had it dead to rights. Unfortunately Celltic being slow and taking his time is what allowed Grid to kill him, otherwise he would have been able to finish him.
For this scenerio I don't include the sneak attacks, plasma kills or help from a human either, only a simple 1v1 predator v Alien melee fight.
QuoteI was talking about the actual fight itself, not the final result of the encounter between them. Different strokes for different folks I guess, I was coming at this as a fighter.
Like I said, won the battle, lost the war. I'm sorry you are having trouble with that but it does actually apply, especially since it was his small victory (battle) that contributed to his death. (war) and please try and respect how some people are anaylzing the scenerio, not everyone goes by a simple dead = win. I like to break down fights because in my experience, its not as simple as you think and it also makes for good analysis. I made myself reasonably clear, but y'all got your view and I got mine, so I agree to disagree. 8)
I'm not struggling with anything. I get where you're coming from -- it's just the wrong place.
It's a death match. Dead = win. That's not an oversimplification of the event, it's the actual victory condition. Anything less is nothing because the entire point of the exercise is to kill your opponent. The fight isn't over until one of the combatants is dead. Celtic can't have "won" beforehand because his opponent was still alive. He gained a significant advantage -- but he never won anything.
Even from the perspective of a sporting match, you don't say that a boxer won a fight if they get knocked out. It doesn't matter how well they did beforehand, they've still lost.
Celtic could have won, absolutely. Should have won, I agree.
But he didn't. In a death match between two opponents, he was the one that died. That's a loss.
All predators died. They all lost.
One alien survived, therefore the species won.
That led to AvPR, and then everyone lost...
Especially audience
"Whoever wins... we lose... because Requiem comes next in the marathon."
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Nov 01, 2021, 04:53:14 PM
Quote from: karbomike on Nov 01, 2021, 03:02:12 PM
but in the end, the Predator race was the last one standing.
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GentleJaggedFlea-size_restricted.gif
But always remember, whoever wins...we lose
Man the Yautja sure loved the stakes being stratosphere high. I mean what IF they couldn't activate they're self destruct?
I wonder if the mothership would just carpet bomb the location. It would seem they were constantly close by, monitoring, as we see in the victorious flashback and at the end of the film.
If they were monitoring back then as well, then they were negligent as hell.
I get its supposed to be trial for the three but allowing an infestation to get to the point there is probably no human left in the city and clearly no chance for the young three, its just silly. There is no honor or sportsmanship in allowing a no-win scenerio to occur, one could argue the containment mistake was due to one of three and so the others were just letting them deal with the consequences but risking world wilde exposure to teach a lesson is still silly. :P
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 30, 2021, 08:29:35 AM
I wonder if the mothership would just carpet bomb the location. It would seem they were constantly close by, monitoring, as we see in the victorious flashback and at the end of the film.
They would have.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Dec 30, 2021, 12:50:06 PM
If they were monitoring back then as well, then they were negligent as hell.
My guess would be they had their hand on the big red button if the Predators weren't able to activate their self-destruct devices. Once they were notified the last Predator activated his, they knew they didn't have to nuke the site from orbit.
It would've been a good idea for the preds to scan Scar's body before taking it back...so the predalien won I guess
Quote from: SiL on Dec 28, 2021, 09:59:33 PMCeltic could have won, absolutely. Should have won, I agree.
But he didn't. In a death match between two opponents, he was the one that died. That's a loss.
This is the answer. What I love about this fight is how it gives a winner to the encounter but still leaves enough wiggle room for both creature fans to fight their case as to which is superior. Way I see it, the Predator is highly skilled and should have won this particular fight, but the Alien is the superior foe due to its genetics.
It's a shame that the Grid Alien totally disappears from the movie, after killing 2 Predators (out of 3).
I think I saw some production/deleted material pictures where it was on the surface with the Queen, which is very interesting.
Apparently there was going to be a small fight between Grid and Scar before they escaped the pyramid. Grid was stabbed by a disc, and the acid wounded Scar as he fled upwards on the sled. Grid would've made it to the surface before the explosion destroyed everything.
I wouldn't say he disappeared. We just don't see him get any more big fights. We see him plenty.
Grid and Scar were going to square off before Lex made them evacuate.
Grid reaches the surface and then boom.
Kind of wish he'd at least got his proper sendoff.
The scene I described above would've been fine. But as is, it's enough. The result is still the same.
Great thread. I can't believe I haven't seen it before
Quote from: SiL on Nov 02, 2021, 11:41:43 PMConsidering Aliens infesting hosts to infiltrate new locations is one of their strategies, and Scar got hugged during the course of the fight, you can easily argue that the PredAlien means the Aliens ultimately won. The only thing to survive the hunt was an incubating Alien.
I'd say we can't be certain the Alien Queen is dead.
Our Antarctic Queen is alive. Even with a gaping wound in her head and throat. With talks of more movies coming, including an AvP, it would be a good time for her to resurface.
Antarctic Queen.
Quote from: Master Chief on Aug 18, 2022, 03:05:24 PMOur Antarctic Queen is alive. Even with a gaping wound in her head and throat. With talks of more movies coming, including an AvP, it would be a good time for her to resurface.
(https://c.tenor.com/ytbz1Epg7Q8AAAAM/predator-arnold.gif)
If a new AVP gets made, I hope it gets nothing to do with the first two movies. I'm not opposed to a movie set in the future... You know with space marines and stuff...
I'd like that myself.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Aug 18, 2022, 07:59:26 PMIf a new AVP gets made, I hope it gets nothing to do with the first two movies. I'm not opposed to a movie set in the future... You know with space marines and stuff...
Totally. Personally, I'd have a considerable time jump so canon didn't really matter.
Actively contradict AVP 2004 at every possible avenue.
Why would you want to destroy other mans work? Someone put heart into it, some respect is deserved for the effort itself.
Because Paul W.S Anderson literally gets people killed by having awful on set safety for his films, AVP 2004 likely being no exception (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-features/death-injuries-amputations-is-resident-evil-hollywoods-dangerous-franchise-1244726/) and arguably the Strause Bros (supremely scummy VFX company https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Hydraulx-Reviews-E494935.htm?filter.iso3Language=eng) and crew (Johnny Lewis) of Requiem are even more ultimately despicable, sure I know that good people definitely worked on them but I would rather the franchises were washed of their association with the filth.
They're not the only ones involved. You have to separate art from artist to a certain extent.
I do not have to in this case, and don't think I can in good conscience, even X-Men 2 and X-Men Days of Future Past I can easier separate from their director, because David Hayter's the creative mind behind the former one, and Matthew Vaughn and Jane Goldman being the creatives behind the latter, because we know what happened when that director stayed on for another without them and the other writer tried to step up.
Either AVP has no such luxury, in comparison the directors had almost no outside input beyond them controlling the show in writing and directing, their fingerprints are all over those films and it shows in their quality level.
So the Brothers Strauss are irredeemable for being bad business owners but alleged serial rapist and domestic abuser Bryan Singer you can give a pass.
... I'm out.
It is all to do with the veracity of involvement. Bryan Singer allegedly was not even on set for most of the shooting for Days of Future Past and by the time of Apocalypse it reached unsustainable levels, each whatever you think, had mountains more of creatives involved than either AVP film.
So yes unironically easier to not think about Bryan Singer making profit of it, because he was not the sole beneficiary or creative onboard, arguably never even the main one unlike the AVP films.
The AVPs in terms of creative input are made primarily by bad artists and bad people, Bryan Singer's one bad person, and a good artist apparently, amongst a crew of good people and good artists with as much if not more control over the commercially and critically successful X-Men franchise projects than he had.
He had input and produced X-Men First Class, but it was written and directed by Matthew Vaughn and Jane Goldman, who also wrote X-Men Days of Future Past and an outline for X-Men Apocalypse, Bryan Singer just directed the sequels.
Which got switched around in production, that meant it destroyed Matthew Vaughn and Jane Goldman's careful chronology from sequel to sequel, that's why X-Men Days of Future Past feels like a fully formed if slightly edited story and X-Men Apocalypse like a retrofitted first draft because that's exactly what they are.
I am not giving anyone a pass here. Paul W.S Anderson, the Strauss Bros, and Bryan Singer are all irredeemable because of a continuity of abuse in each case frankly.