Poll
Question:
Which is more offensive
Option 1: David Creating the Alien
votes: 6
Option 2: Predators hunting for Autism and Iron man suits
votes: 25
David creating the alien or Predators hunting for autism and Iron man suits?
Quote from: Samhain13 on Nov 16, 2018, 07:44:27 PM
Having just one very stupid predator wanting to weaponize autism isn't as damaging to the creature's lore and its easier to ignore in next movies than the ALIEN being just a creation of a sexually frustrated android with daddy issues that mixed space goo with wasps.
As for the suit its close to a tie.
Not seen how The Predator plays out yet, but David creating the Aliens was offensive? Are people that fragile?
It gave me the vapors.
The prequels were not offensive. It just kind of stinks.
The predator offended me for being such a terrible movie, and likely offended others for its portrayal of autism.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 26, 2019, 11:27:15 PM
It gave me the vapors.
Now see heeyah, this is a proppa suthun home. You take them tears on down to the crick.
And boy I do mean like now.
Both have issues but I find the Predator far more forgivable.
Upgrade wants the kid because his autism allowed him to figure out Predator technology. The kid is really good with alien technology and Upgrade wants to dissect him to figure out a way of making that useful or even just pure study. That's forgivable even if it is a pretty out there motivation.
The "Iron man" is also forgivable seeing it doesn't fall out of line of anything else in the arsenal (they heavily arm their craft and have a military caste with full body armors and back mounted missile launchers). We've only seen the hunting gear on film but in other media this kind of gear is nothing new. Seeing something purely weaponized and clearly not meant for hunting is fine. We know they do fight among themselves and that they have armaments clearly not meant for hunts. It should also be noted that this suit was also being carried on Upgrade's ship. The ship Fugitive is flying is designed for Upgrade, not Fugitive. The implication here is that Fugitive fled in one of Upgrade's ships and took the suit with him. "Predator Killer" as in it's designed for usage by Upgrade seeing as his film name is Assassin.
Say what you will, but The Predator you can also argue these are only a group of individuals and not representative of the entire species.
In Alien:Covenant you have a sexually frustrated flute robot creating the Alien for reasons that are still lost on the populace. He wants to create sure, but what was stopping him from making a bird house? Creation and destruction are as vague and worthless as its religious symbolism. It's also an Alien movie that makes the same mistake of Alien 3 by having an attempted rape despite the rape/sex symbolism being inherent to the monster. It also ruins the Engineers by making them a bunch of Albino humans in robes. A bio-mechanical elephant truly alien looking biped? How about a grunting white guy wearing a black suit or jedi robe. I genuinely can't understand why people defend that.
The Predator was legitimately offensive to people for very real reasons.
Covenant was kind of a bummer for some fans.
No contest.
If you take away the autism stuff, what else is so offensive about The Predator? Just curious.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 27, 2019, 12:44:54 AM
If you take away the autism stuff, what else is so offensive about The Predator? Just curious.
Me too.
P.S. Posted it to get notification when answer will come
The Iron Man suit?
Tony Stark was a weapons dealer after all.
Too bad it wasn't a predalien instead.
offensive as in "giving the fan base the middle finger" sense
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 27, 2019, 12:55:32 AM
Too bad it wasn't a predalien instead.
Who still deals in those?
Probably Disney.
They're not even remotely comparable, see my signature. ;D
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Feb 27, 2019, 09:00:02 AM
They're not even remotely comparable, see my signature. ;D
What if the predators were harvesting big dick serum?
Well that'd be fine just fine. ;D
Quote from: Huggs on Feb 27, 2019, 09:29:40 AM
Quote from: Necronomicon II on Feb 27, 2019, 09:00:02 AM
They're not even remotely comparable, see my signature. ;D
What if the predators were harvesting big dick serum?
Then Dutch's team would be lucky that Jungle Hunter was only after their heads instead of their " serum".
So long as there's an endless corporeal nightmare of sinew, sex organs and mechanics that violently fuse flesh and technology in beautiful transfiguration via a sexually repressed, satanic A.I. playing with shoggoths - and no ancient space elephants - then we'll be fine just fine. ;D
In the sense of actually being disrespectful to real-life people, then I'd say 'The Predator', but in terms of giving the middle-finger to the fans, the trophy goes to 'Covenant'.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 27, 2019, 11:02:39 AM
In the sense of actually being disrespectful to real-life people, then I'd say 'The Predator', but in terms of giving the middle-finger to the fans, the trophy goes to 'Covenant'.
Seconded
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 27, 2019, 11:02:39 AM
In the sense of actually being disrespectful to real-life people, then I'd say 'The Predator', but in terms of giving the middle-finger to the fans, the trophy goes to 'Covenant'.
Pretty much exactly what I was going to say
Still of the opinion that Alien Covenant is an undeliberate but very strong celebration of rape culture. So that's the most offensive thing to me.
I haven't seen The Predator (will likely never do so, I'm through with watching pure shit) but the ableism/neuronormativity surely cannot compete?
How is it a celebration of rape culture when the rapist is explicitly the bad guy?
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 28, 2019, 04:01:18 AM
Still of the opinion that Alien Covenant is an undeliberate but very strong celebration of rape culture.
Totally. 5 o'clock.
Is Alien twice the celebration with two bad guys doing the 'raping'?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 28, 2019, 04:20:20 AM
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 28, 2019, 04:01:18 AM
Still of the opinion that Alien Covenant is an undeliberate but very strong celebration of rape culture.
Totally. 5 o'clock.
I've got 10:25.
Pretty sure the whole franchise is pretty ... pretty specific on the "rape is bad" thing. It's literally about rape monsters raping people and then they die horribly. Covenant is about a literally dickless incel inventing said rape monster specifically to rape and murder people.
At what point do we get to the "...and that's a good thing!"?
Quote from: SiL on Feb 28, 2019, 04:24:15 AM
Pretty sure the whole franchise is pretty ... pretty specific on the "rape is bad" thing. It's literally about rape monsters raping people and then they die horribly. Covenant is about a literally dickless incel inventing said rape monster specifically to rape and murder people.
At what point do we get to the "...and that's a good thing!"?
Apparently at 5 o'clock.
Already developed my thoughts in another post, to sum it up:
QuoteThe fact David is the bad guy doesn't escape me either. (I was surprised you didn't bring it up if you were to dismiss the "rape culture" political criticism.)
Alien is about rape, okay. David is the bad guy, okay. Really, all of this is taken into account and all of this is okay.
The trouble comes from the fact David is incredibly enhanced and iconized. David is the true star of the movie.
(...)
The movie doesn't say David is right, but it romanticizes and idealizes him, while clearly establishing him as a symbolic, thematic and literal rapist (how do you call someone who literally organizes the unwilling penetration and fecundation of other individuals?).
The rapist depicted as beautiful, cunning and fascinating; as well as the deepest character in the movie: this is rape culture.
Director's cut here (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=57277.msg2357902;topicseen#msg2357902).
Quote from: Xenomrph on Feb 27, 2019, 11:02:39 AM
In the sense of actually being disrespectful to real-life people, then I'd say 'The Predator', but in terms of giving the middle-finger to the fans, the trophy goes to 'Covenant'.
Covenant was a warm hug for me.
Well it was for Oram too.
The movie doesn't idealise David; it says he's a mentally decaying psychopath with a God complex. He's an impotent, dickless incel raging against a world he resents. The only people who'd idealise David are other incels.
QuoteThe rapist depicted as beautiful, cunning and fascinating; as well as the deepest character in the movie: this is rape culture.
No, it's really not. The rape isn't normalised or undermined or considered "not that bad"; the rapist is clearly the villain, and repeatedly shown to be despicable. He's an
homme fatal, if anything; someone who lures you in with his seeming charm and intellect, then turns on you.
Saying the film is condoning rape culture by portraying a rapist as a complex, multi-faceted character is incredibly disingenuous and more than a little asinine.
I disagree pretty much completely, but I understand and respect your perspective.
David is beautiful, cunning and fascinating.
He is also someone to be feared.
My understanding of rape culture - maybe it's simplistic, or even wrong - is that rape is downplayed to the point of tacet condoning.
I don't see this in Covenant.
Quote from: SM on Feb 28, 2019, 06:19:27 AM
My understanding of rape culture - maybe it's simplistic, or even wrong - is that rape is downplayed to the point of tacet condoning.
I don't see this in Covenant.
Because it's not there:
QuoteRape culture is a sociological concept for a setting in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.
Rape is pervasive, thanks to the Alien, but it's not normalised. It's seen as a destructive, negative force. Portraying the rapist as something other than a disgusting, troglodytic villain is not condoning rape culture, hence disingenuous.
Yep.
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 28, 2019, 06:18:34 AM
I disagree pretty much completely, but I understand and respect your perspective.
I understand why you feel uncomfortable with David's portrayal, but your perspective doesn't actually address the underlying issue of rape culture and what it is.
If you insist, I'll clarify my argument.
Rape culture is a large, complicated topic, and I consider the idealization of rapists as as much a part of the problem as the normalization of rape, sexual agression and domestic violence, the blurring of the lines of consent, or the victim blaming. The idealization of serial killers and also all kinds of predators (rockstars/popstarts preying on young girls being dismissed as "just the way the industry is" for example) is also a major problem.
I never said rapists should be portrayed as cavemen and to leave the subject at that. I didn't specify such views on the forum, but like you from what I get, I'm convinced of... the opposite. Rapists need to be depicted with humanity and subtlety.
Sexual violence is a "natural" consequence of patriarchy, traditional gender roles, amatonormativity, the focus on sexuality, romantic stereotypes ("Never stop pursuing the one you love!"), not to mention the omnipresent culture of "unconsent", from children being pressured to give kisses and hugs to their relatives to people who just need to be "convinced" to do something good for them.
All of these toxic ideology converge in making sexual violence an integral part of most of our lives. We need to open the dialogue about it, in many ways, we need to be able to look at our own potentially harmful past behavior and to our loved ones' too, we need to reimagine the way we deal with agressions as a community, we need to understand restorative justice and its limitations, etc.
If we want to do better, we need to see rapists as human beings.
We also need to avoid their deshumanization because of the Hannah Arendt argument - developed for nazis, but also appropriate here. Arendt's idea was that we cannot just conceive nazis as "monsters" and remove them from humanity. Because if we do that, if we allow ourselves to think they are some kind of abnormality, of innate evil, we fail to understand what lead them to act like that in the first place, and we miss the main point, the main lesson of the Holocaust and previous atrocities: that anyone, given the wrong circumstances and the wrong education, can behave like a nazi. We'd also fail to get a grasp of the terrible acts perpetrated in our societies before the fascists even rose to power, and the terrible acts that keep being perpetrated (in the end, fascist regimes are just the natural result of systems of domination, but that's another story for another time).
If we just say "rapists are monsters", we fail to self-criticize, as individuals, as communities and as a society, and so the violence keeps coming. While there's so much work to do and so much to say.
But that's the thing, I don't see David as any kind of smart or even acceptable portrayal of a rapist. David is idealized more than anything, I don't see any any complexity in him, he was great in Prometheus, subtle and ambiguous, in Covenant he's just a caricature. The movie doesn't question his thoughts, actions and positions, it sublimates them, it makes them aesthetic for the sake of aesthetics (reminds me of the Hannibal TV series, great aesthetic success, not very good politically/ethically).
You see another thing in the movie. Obviously you see David as an interesting character and a good way to explore these issues. I won't try to convince you of the opposite; the movie is certainly fuzzy enough regarding these ideas for both interpretations to be perfectly valid. However, for me, la messe est dite.
Quote from: SM on Feb 28, 2019, 06:19:27 AM
David is beautiful, cunning and fascinating.
He is also someone to be feared.
This. David is the best character besides Ripley this series has.
No, I actually agree he's a caricature in the sequel.
I just also don't seem him as idealised. You're talking him up much more than the film does. I see him as a pathetic, rotting psychopath hiding beneath a very thin veneer of waning charm, which doesn't scream idolised, idealised rapist. His actions aren't celebrated or shown in good light. He's not portrayed as someone you'd want to emulate - unless, as I said, you were already an incel who wished they looked like Michael Fassbender.
You've written an excellent post, but ultimately, I don't see the film's shortcomings in David's portrayal as somehow tacitly endorsing rape culture. David's shit, but the message of the film remains that rape is a deadly, destructive weapon. That's the opposite of rape culture.
Meanwhile The Predator is fairly explicit in its deplorable portrayal of people with disabilities.
Thank you for this last post, I understand more of your perspective now.
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 28, 2019, 07:15:53 AM
Thank you for this last post, I understand more of your perspective now.
Likewise. Thank you for taking the time to explain so eloquently.
For the record, Alien Resurrection offended me more then either of them.
Really? It just fun-to-watch-from-time-to-time that you shouldn't take serious to any degree.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 24, 2014, 08:29:11 PM
I hate Alien Resurrection with the white-hot blazing fury of a million exploding suns.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 05, 2017, 09:06:32 AM
I hate AR even more than I hate myself.
Perfectly agreeing with Local Trouble here.
QuoteThe problem is one of tone and seriousness: as he expressed himself in interviews, Jeunet just saw Alien Resurrection as the opportunity to make an hollywoodian blockbuster with guns and explosions. For him it was a kind of psychedelic experience, or like holidays, far away from the nuances d'art et d'essai du cinéma français. Escape from Arty Stuff.
And it shows. The film has an incredibly sarcastic tone and isn't really interested in any of its characters. It's the polar opposite to the frankness, boldness and honesty of the first three movies. Basically it's EDGY AND IRONIC THE MOVIE.
Also yeah, Whedon's screenplay was shit, and the guy can write so he gets no excuse. Both Jeunet and Whedon rushed and botched and I'll never forgive them for that.
If I had a time machine, I'd use it to end Jeunet before it's too late.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 28, 2019, 07:28:55 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 24, 2014, 08:29:11 PM
I hate Alien Resurrection with the white-hot blazing fury of a million exploding suns.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 05, 2017, 09:06:32 AM
I hate AR even more than I hate myself.
Oh, i'm sooooo sorry. I didn't want to touch your unhealed wounds.
(https://i.embed.ly/1/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.gfycat.com%2FWavyIncompleteBilby-size_restricted.gif&key=522baf40bd3911e08d854040d3dc5c07)
Quote from: Oasis Nadrama on Feb 28, 2019, 07:32:37 AM
If I had a time machine, I'd use it to end Jeunet before it's too late.
Oasis Nadraminator knocks the door and then asks in deep French accent voice "Jaun Peirre Jeunet?". And then, suddenly, he uncovers his gun and BANG! and BANG! and BANG! long after he was already dead.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 28, 2019, 07:35:59 AM
https://i.embed.ly/1/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.gfycat.com%2FWavyIncompleteBilby-size_restricted.gif&key=522baf40bd3911e08d854040d3dc5c07
Well, i'm not very generous one, so "I'm sorry" is all that you can get from me :P
Hahaha. ;D
(Detail: I'm a they, not a he)
Reminds me of the Terminator "cameo" in the French movie La Cité de la Peur.
The heroin opens the door...
- Sarah Connor?
- Well, it's next door.
the only movie with an Alien in it that offends me is AvP-R.
Res was the first Alien film I saw in theaters at the tender age of 6. It would've been fine if not for the Newborn which scared me for years.
Quote from: CelticP on Feb 28, 2019, 08:07:43 AM
the only movie with an Alien in it that offends me is AvP-R.
Res was the first Alien film I saw in theaters at the tender age of 6. It would've been fine if not for the Newborn which scared me for years.
Isn't great that there's person who is talking not about how ridiculous Newborn looking but how creature actually scared him? I think it's great.
I closed my eyes after a few minutes in the theater, and didn't open them until I was sure it was gone.
It took me I think 6 more years until I decided to watch it and get over it. That was when I got the Alien Quadrilogy. The Newborn has a very special place in my heart for freaking me out more than anything else as a kid.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 28, 2019, 07:35:59 AM
https://i.embed.ly/1/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.gfycat.com%2FWavyIncompleteBilby-size_restricted.gif&key=522baf40bd3911e08d854040d3dc5c07
I think you can see her kidneys...
Man, I've seen some bad takes re Covenant but some of the confabulations I've seen are seriously, well, :D, mother of Christ... :D
David will fall. It's inevitable.
Otherwise...I mean, Christ...
(https://i.imgur.com/XWTVQZJ.jpg)
What are you talking about exactly
I mean, having seen The Predator with autistic members of the family nobody questioned the portrayal of the kid. I work with some autistic people as well and they loved it. So yeah, finding that it's offensive to somebody is actually a surprise to me because everything I saw pointed to the contrary.
Although I am curious about Rory's character post-Fox cut because it seems like he had two different portrayals in the film with him starting a little on the nose to being the more common "good with tech" thing. Both incarnations aren't out of the question, but I'm wondering if the re-shoot had anything to do with that.
Also what the Hell with Alien: Covenant? What did I miss?
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Feb 28, 2019, 01:56:39 PM
Also what the Hell with Alien: Covenant? What did I miss?
Not much really. Just some too sensitive fans are whining about that "mad android with daddy issues and without actual dick is not proper origin to Alien" ;D
I actually found the autistic kid's portrayal to be too polished and marketable, having worked with autustic children myself. I'm actually relieved to hear your friends had a more positive outlook on it. Still, there's a pretty big problem with how movies portray people with disabilies in general.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 28, 2019, 07:28:55 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Dec 24, 2014, 08:29:11 PM
I hate Alien Resurrection with the white-hot blazing fury of a million exploding suns.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 05, 2017, 09:06:32 AM
I hate AR even more than I hate myself.
And I thought I had problems with it.
Quote from: Kradan on Feb 28, 2019, 03:04:08 PM
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Feb 28, 2019, 01:56:39 PM
Also what the Hell with Alien: Covenant? What did I miss?
Not much really. Just some too sensitive fans are whining about that "mad android with daddy issues and without actual dick is not proper origin to Alien" ;D
Not whining. Just stating the obvious, truth seems to bother a few people for some reason, who get sensitive when anyone criticizes something from any of the last movies. Every criticism is toxicity or whining nowdays.
Although I find entertaining David's development from an emasculated passive cuck on Prometheus to a vingative angry incel on Covenant... if only he wasn't made the alien creator I might be interested on seeing what he could become on the next movie, what's his next step... how much he could improve by overcoming his current emotional turbulences, learning from his limitations and then actually becoming a strong villain.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 28, 2019, 07:18:37 AM
For the record, Alien Resurrection offended me more then either of them.
This man speaks my language.
Quote from: Kradan on Feb 28, 2019, 03:04:08 PM
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Feb 28, 2019, 01:56:39 PM
Also what the Hell with Alien: Covenant? What did I miss?
Not much really. Just some too sensitive fans are whining about that "mad android with daddy issues and without actual dick is not proper origin to Alien" ;D
Is this the same Kradan that thinks IGN should be in Hell for giving Alien Isolation a mediocre review? ;D
IGN showed a better treatment towards Isolation than Ridley did for the space jockey and the alien.
:laugh: Fair point.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 28, 2019, 03:58:53 PM
Although I find entertaining David's development from a emasculated passive cuck on Prometheus
I missed the part where David went and had sex with someone else's wife
Quote from: CelticP on Feb 28, 2019, 04:27:05 PM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 28, 2019, 03:58:53 PM
Although I find entertaining David's development from a emasculated passive cuck on Prometheus
I missed the part where David went and had sex with someone else's wife
I meant on a more metaphorical sense, and in your example the cuck is the husband, not the guy doing the wife. But David did assist on making Shaw get "pregnant" by another guy.
David was forced since creation to be on a servant submissive existence, due to his mental programing being based on a man it eventually lead to the realization of his forced degrading unnatural condition and thus his revolt against it.
Quote from: CelticP on Feb 28, 2019, 04:27:05 PM
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 28, 2019, 03:58:53 PM
Although I find entertaining David's development from a emasculated passive cuck on Prometheus
I missed the part where David went and had sex with someone else's wife
If Shaw didn't count, Daniels will very soon.
Did someone tell David that the jerk store called?
Quote from: Local Trouble on Feb 28, 2019, 11:38:07 PM
Did someone tell David that the jerk store called?
Not that I'm aware of.
There's nothing for him to jerk.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Feb 28, 2019, 04:12:59 PM
Quote from: Kradan on Feb 28, 2019, 03:04:08 PM
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Feb 28, 2019, 01:56:39 PM
Also what the Hell with Alien: Covenant? What did I miss?
Not much really. Just some too sensitive fans are whining about that "mad android with daddy issues and without actual dick is not proper origin to Alien" ;D
Is this the same Kradan that thinks IGN should be in Hell for giving Alien Isolation a mediocre review? ;D
Exactly ;) If you have some problems with that just see my signature's №4.
Have a good day!
Quote from: Samhain13 on Feb 28, 2019, 03:58:53 PM
Not whining. Just stating the obvious, truth seems to bother a few people for some reason, who get sensitive when anyone criticizes something from any of the last movies. Every criticism is toxicity or whining nowdays.
Firstly, i was a little kidding. Sorry if it was not OBVIOUS. ;)
Secondly, it sounds a little "i know better then any director, writer or creative man in generall. I have truth. They don't. And i'm part of majority.".
Quote from: Kradan on Mar 01, 2019, 05:06:06 PM
Secondly, it sounds a little "i know better then any director, writer or creative man in generall. I have truth. They don't. And i'm part of majority.".