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With the recently released Prey being a significant success for the Hulu and Disney+ streaming platforms, naturally questions have arisen regarding future plans for the franchise.

In a new interview with Variety, longtime series Producer John Davis reminisced on the production history of the franchise up until Prey. Davis elaborated on the about the initial attempt at keeping the nature of the Predator film a secret as well as congratulated Director Dan Trachtenberg on the film.

"Dan came to me and we went to the studio, and it was in the middle of making the other movie. And we decided, 'Alright, let's do this, but we're gonna make it a top secret project.' So the whole idea was to keep this top secret. The other movie would come out, and then we would announce that we were ready right away to make this. Now, it took a lot longer than right away because different things happened and Fox got sold. It moved over into Disney, and I think it's great. Disney understood the potential of this franchise."

"Dan did a terrific job. This movie is his imagination. This movie was his idea. People just need a fresh reinterpretation of this franchise from time to time. And if they have it, it will survive 100 years."

When asked on the possible future for the franchise, Davis hints at multiple possibilities such as another prequel, a contemporary film, and even a new Alien vs. Predator movie:

"Well, maybe there's an origin origin story. Right? Maybe there's another 'Alien vs. Predator' story in a different situation. And maybe there's a new modern-day version. And maybe there's something somewhere in between. I think this character can show up throughout history."

Special Effects Supervisor Alec Gillis also spoke to the possibility of a new AVP film during an interview with ComicBook.com

“I think there’s certainly some good stories that could be told in that world, and it’s not like it hasn’t been done. What excites me about Disney’s involvement in this is what they’ve done with the Star Wars universe, where you can have these standalone side story movies. It expands the universe and expands possibilities. So we’re looking forward to filling in those spaces with cool creatures, cool stories.”

With the last Alien vs. Predator film having released back in 2007, It’s certainly been long enough for us that we’d be plenty hyped to see another AVP film!

Thanks to GreybackElder for the news! Be sure to keep your targets set on Alien vs. Predator Galaxy for all the latest Prey & AVP news! You can also follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube to get the latest on your social media walls. Be sure to join in with fellow Alien and Predator fans on our forums as well!

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"It's certainly been long enough for us that we'd be plenty hyped to see another AVP film!"

Hopefully a better one than the previous 2

What a great time to be a predator fan again:)

Hot dog, time to finish my film so I can start pitching.

I hope the next AvP involves Machiko, Broken Tusk & Ryushi, otherwise I really couldn't get excited. I've been burnt too many times.

I really hope something comes of this. There's so much potential and momentum to come from Prey!

Get it done. The fanbase is there for it.

If anything is going to happen it's got to be now. With the success of Prey; Disney needs to strike while the iron is hot. I'd love to see a predator anthology of shorts akin to If It Bleeds or Eyes of The Demon. Give me 10 one hour episodes like Black Mirror. That would be KILLER.
While the AVP films are a guilty pleasure for me I'm not sure a vs film can be pulled off without feeling hokey. Don't get me wrong I'd love to see something like The Rage War series on Disney or Hulu. But, I just think that nothing will meet our expectations.

If Noah Hawley's Alien's good or Fede Alvarez's Alien's good, perhaps we can do a build up to AVP soon?

I am really hyped in interested about new content, movies, games and universes in both the franchises, i just hope they can do it right, they can experiment with things but the characters culture and ways need to be respected, we cant have another predators and humans friendship, aliens being just some bugs that can be killed with ease, things like that, i believe in disney but the characters must be respected.

I think Fede's movie will be pretty stand alone. The tv show I have no idea.

I personally think both franchises suffer when its AvP, so Im not super anxious to have everything crossover. Lets just focus on getting a good Alien story out of Alvares. Then if it does well, they should think about a seperate AvP story. Don't force it.
My two cents

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You can't set expectations like that because then you will be forever disappointed

Very encouraging news. I can see the femake lead in this last movie being good in ab avp movie if they cherry pick from the comics .

If there is going to be another AVP film, they will need to change the way they produce these things. Most importantly, they need to at least take fan feedback to account. Now fans aren't always right in their opinion, and if we are talking about some Oscar-caliber artistic movie, filmmakers should go with their own vision, not bend over backwards to fan demand. BUT...if we are talking about popular movie franchises like Alien and Predator, the history of the AVP films tell us the producers should listen to what the fans actually want.

I remember there was a fan outcry when 20th Century Fox selected Paul W.S. Anderson to direct AVP. The fans knew he was a poor choice for the job, but the studio ignored the outcry, thinking they knew better than the fans on what makes a good movie. And the result? Crappy movie as the fans predicted. Granted, AVP is not without some good points here and there, and I find it enjoyable to watch as a guilty pleasure. But overall, its not a good movie.

The studio repeated this mistake with AVPR. In their arrogance, they brushed aside what the fans actually wanted. Now to their credit, the directing duo of AVPR, the Strause brothers, knew the fans wanted a AVP movie set in the space and in the future, but their hands were tied by Fox. The result was of course the worst of all the Alien or Predator movies. Personally, I actually enjoyed AVPR as a fun slasher flick, seen in that context, its actually quite entertaining. But if I was to give it a serious review, I can't defend it as a good Alien or Predator movie.

Which means, the studio MUST take into account what the fans actually want to see in a AVP movie...for once.  Now they don't need a movie dictated by every fan demand (which may not be such a good way to make a movie), but they do need a movie that at least acknowledges what the fans actually WANT and give them some satisfaction in that area.

There's literally no director, no plot, no direction the story could take that some fan, somewhere, wouldn't complain about. Lots of fans don't even want AvP to happen, period.

Can't make everyone happy.

Quote from: SiL on Aug 19, 2022, 06:24:04 AMThere's literally no director, no plot, no direction the story could take that some fan, somewhere, wouldn't complain about. Lots of fans don't even want AvP to happen, period.

Well yes, different fans have different opinions of course. But usually, there are some things most/ a majority of fans want to see.

The point is not to please every single fan out there, that's impossible. But please the fans that matter, the majority who agree on certain things that should be in a AVP movie.

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Quote from: Crazy Rich on Aug 19, 2022, 06:27:16 AMCan't make everyone happy.

Just make a majority happy is what counts in the end.

Quote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2022, 05:44:17 AMHot dog, time to finish my film so I can start pitching.

Is eight years enough time?

Quote from: Cougerboy on Aug 19, 2022, 06:29:41 AMThe point is not to please every single fan out there, that's impossible. But please the fans that matter, the majority who agree on certain things that should be in a AVP movie.

The only thing fans agree on is that they want a good movie.

Quote from: SiL on Aug 19, 2022, 07:12:31 AM

Quote from: Cougerboy on Aug 19, 2022, 06:29:41 AMThe point is not to please every single fan out there, that's impossible. But please the fans that matter, the majority who agree on certain things that should be in a AVP movie.

The only thing fans agree on is that they want a good movie.

No. They also want to have set in the future.

Most fans would forgive that if the movie was good.

Quote from: Cougerboy on Aug 19, 2022, 09:12:02 AM

Quote from: SiL on Aug 19, 2022, 07:12:31 AM

Quote from: Cougerboy on Aug 19, 2022, 06:29:41 AMThe point is not to please every single fan out there, that's impossible. But please the fans that matter, the majority who agree on certain things that should be in a AVP movie.

The only thing fans agree on is that they want a good movie.

No. They also want to have set in the future.

And in

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/120/755/spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.png)

Please no more "on Earrh" bullshit

I think it should be in space.

But I'd take a good movie on earth over a bad movie in space.

Will you set it on Earth ?

God no.

Will it be a good movie ?

Of course.

Strause Brothers said same thing

They said they knew it was never going to be as good as the best of the series but they wanted it to still be entertaining.

My aspirations are a lil higher.

Alright, where do I sign ?

You better have a crazyass Queen wrecking shit around @SiL


god I'm in a sudden need to rewatch AvP

I think SiL will aim a bit more class and a bit less schlock.

Quote from: Omegamorph on Aug 19, 2022, 02:28:31 PMYou better have a crazyass Queen wrecking shit around @SiL

(https://c.tenor.com/GYPmdCjUba4AAAAC/alien-vs-predator-alien.gif)

god I'm in a sudden need to rewatch AvP

This man gets it. Maybe we should get him to direct

Quote from: Kradan on Aug 19, 2022, 04:10:05 PMThis man gets it. Maybe we should get him to direct

Nah I'd happily work for SiL he got it

although I do have ideas for A/P related scripts that I'd love to direct as well - too busy writing my Dalek short now tho :P

How about doing practical effects ?

Quote from: Kradan on Aug 19, 2022, 07:52:02 PMHow about doing practical effects ?

I'll be also experimenting with those (with the Dalek short first off) but do give me time I just started sculpting ahahah

-

back on topic, I wouldn't mind another AvP that adapts the older runs, as long as they make it plain as day that it's not in continuity with the Alien or Predator series

if they do it the same way as Prey (which is to say VERY good) I'm so game

this SIL dude is a director?

He is and he promised to make the best AvP movie ever in 8 years

Quote from: SiL on Aug 19, 2022, 09:21:42 AMMost fans would forgive that if the movie was good.

Most fans want a AVP movie set in the future and NOT on Earth.  ;D

Yes, but they want a good movie more than they care about the location.

Good movie trumps everything. It's the only non negotiable.

Quote from: SiL on Aug 20, 2022, 08:37:35 AMGood movie trumps everything. It's the only non negotiable.

Spoiler

(https://c.tenor.com/Z4mqx0cXXWQAAAAC/citizen-kane-orson-welles.gif)

[close]

I have basically zero care in the world if a new AVP movie ever happens. I don't care at all for the two movies that we have, and I never really put much stock in the concept outside of it being a fun enough, gimmicky crossover for comics and video games.

That being said: I think J.A. Bayona might be a genuinely fun choice to helm an AVP film. I think he'd get the pulp that's kind of inherent to the concept's core, and he'd tap into something a bit more stylized in its modes of horror and action with some inherent Gothic sensibilities against a more futuristic/techy backdrop.

Quote from: SiL on Aug 20, 2022, 08:37:35 AMYes, but they want a good movie more than they care about the location.

Good movie trumps everything. It's the only non negotiable.

Well that goes without saying of course. A good movie set in the future and out in space somewhere... 8)

Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 20, 2022, 12:55:29 PM... and I never really put much stock in the concept outside of it being a fun enough, gimmicky crossover for comics and video games.

I honestly feel like we're overdue for an AvP game.

An AvP movie would be cool. An AvP game would be better! The only way I would be interested in an AvP film is if it took place in the future and not on earth, Colonial Marines and all!

Put it on a game preserve, really throw us a curveball where we think it's in the past but turns out it's in the future. Like we see a ninja but then all of a sudden we have a colonial marine. Lets make some wacky combos this time.

That would be great news if a new AVP film was announced. Even better if it was set in the future.

Between the Aliens and Predator IPs, the former is the more interesting, fully fleshed out sci-fi setting. An AvP film should be set in the Aliens-verse. If AvP is its own universe, the AvP-verse should look and feel like the mainline Aliens-verse, but with Predators thrown into the recipe.

• Predator stories set in the past
• Aliens stories set in the future
• AvP stories also set in the future, but being more like a parallel, secondary plotline to the primary Aliens plotline

The tricky part would be whether and how to bring AvP and Aliens characters together.

Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Aug 20, 2022, 11:20:10 PMPut it on a game preserve, really throw us a curveball where we think it's in the past but turns out it's in the future. Like we see a ninja but then all of a sudden we have a colonial marine. Lets make some wacky combos this time.

Hmmmmm hmmmm. I don't know. I feel like that's already been done in Hunter's Planet and Predators. So, game preserve, for me, has already been done.

I've been re-reading the original Aliens vs Predator comics and remembering how much these stories added to the Predator lore and how well it fits within the Aliens-verse

At this point I would love a straight adaptation of the AVP2 game. That was masterful.

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Quote from: Nightmare Asylum on Aug 20, 2022, 12:55:29 PMI have basically zero care in the world if a new AVP movie ever happens. I don't care at all for the two movies that we have, and I never really put much stock in the concept outside of it being a fun enough, gimmicky crossover for comics and video games.

That being said: I think J.A. Bayona might be a genuinely fun choice to helm an AVP film. I think he'd get the pulp that's kind of inherent to the concept's core, and he'd tap into something a bit more stylized in its modes of horror and action with some inherent Gothic sensibilities against a more futuristic/techy backdrop.

Bayona is a really good director indeed... If the studio let him work properly.

Masterful up until plot threads are just dropped with no real resolution.

Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Aug 21, 2022, 12:58:35 PMMasterful up until plot threads are just dropped with no real resolution.

Which ones are you thinking of ?

The entire ending of the Marine Campaign sucks.

Ahh yeah... That was the weakest part, clearly. Way too far removed from the tremendously good and atmospheric beginning.

It's a pity AvP 2004 oriented the franchise toward present-day Earth. They should've just used AvP Prey or Duel as a rough outline, maybe drop any human-predator team up but keep the future space setting. Think Duel would've worked well to bring Colonial Marines into AvP...would probably require less budget than a close adaptation of Prey？

Duel was one of the stories they considered, but Davis went with Anderson's pitch instead.

I don't remember hearing that one? I know Emmerich and Devlin wanted the PredAlien to play a prominent role, but can't recall hearing them talk about any concepts that sounded like Duel specifically? A lot of the earlier reported stories tended to sound like Eternal.

That's because I'm getting the two titles mixed up in my head :laugh:

Eternal is the one I'm thinking.

yooo emmerich avp gimme

any way shape or form that i can see both of u guys work? Omega and SiL?

Quote from: Youoneuglymf on Aug 23, 2022, 04:24:06 PMany way shape or form that i can see both of u guys work? Omega and SiL?

I only have in-work scripts so far. Currently writing a short Dalek film for one (silly, I know). I've only worked as a creature designer, as well as 3d animator for a museum, for a like five or six design projects, but nothing big - friend stuff. Some of my work has been posted on my IG

Quote from: Youoneuglymf on Aug 23, 2022, 04:24:06 PMany way shape or form that i can see both of u guys work? Omega and SiL?

Most of my work is in editing and the projects are in still tied up in festivals. I've got my first feature in post production I'll be releasing early next year.

I've got some student short films online but they are definitely student short films.

A feature? That must be exciting.

It's a shitload of work is what it is.

Do you have a distributor yet? All that stuff sorted? Any venues in mind? What genre's your picture?

Cyberpunk Eraserhead.

Will be targeting horror, sci fi and genre festivals to build some word of mouth and pedigree.

The main plan is to self distribute using FilmHub to get on various streaming platforms, as well as direct digital sales.

There are some distributors I'll contact directly but I'll wait until the film is done and proved itself in festivals to give it the best chance of getting picked up.

The best of luck to you

Quote from: Kradan on Aug 24, 2022, 05:28:03 AMThe best of luck to you

Thank you!

I had suspected it would be a genre mix piece, preparing for Alien Versus Predator yes?

If David Lynch thought Alien ripped him off he's about to have a rude awakening soon. :laugh: Being that you're no doubt influenced by both. ;D

I genuinely look forward to anything that could be described  best as "Sci-Fi Eraserhead" -wish you the best of luck.

Honestly I use Eraserhead as shorthand for "off-kilter black and white dream-like surrealism" and am grossly flattering myself with the comparison, but it gets the point across to people.

Sounds interesting, surrealism's one of if not my favourite art movement honestly, in film especially it's a tough nut to crack with a lot of potential.

Back on topic folks

new AvP hopefully with studio gillis at the fx

I expect KNB will be the ones working on Noah Hawley's Alien judging by prior history.


https://www.stanwinstonschool.com/blog/legion-marvel-FX-behind-the-scenes-KNB-Howard-Berger

QuoteThe first season of Legion was filmed in Vancouver but for seasons two and three, Hawley moved the production south to Los Angeles. In Vancouver, the first season makeup effects had been handled by Todd Masters and MASTERSFX. But once in L.A., Howard Berger, of the KNB Effects Group, Inc., was brought on to create Legion's diverse cast of creatures.

We know Weta is involved in some way.

Oh yeah! Good stuff.

I really, truly, hope they'll go back to the classic creature designs if they do another AVP. Something akin to a mix of City Hunter/Jungle Hunter vs Big Chap. Do it right, do it well.

Like or dislike Feral Predator I do think, even though i'm not a fan of the face design, it actually looks better than The Predator or any of the AVP predator faces.(Wolf only gets a pass because we can't see him. Yes I made that joke, and no I'm not sorry about it at all. I'll be here all night folks.)

Quote from: OpenMaw on Sep 15, 2022, 02:47:33 AMI really, truly, hope they'll go back to the classic creature designs if they do another AVP. Something akin to a mix of City Hunter/Jungle Hunter vs Big Chap. Do it right, do it well.

This!  ;D

(https://i.ibb.co/D5ZsJZB/Pics-Art-09-15-12-15-57.jpg)

Quote from: OpenMaw on Sep 15, 2022, 02:47:33 AMI really, truly, hope they'll go back to the classic creature designs if they do another AVP. Something akin to a mix of City Hunter/Jungle Hunter vs Big Chap. Do it right, do it well.

Agreed. From a purely visual point of view, to actually see the classic designs to go at it would be so satisfying. The concept has existing so long, since all we had were those very early designs, I think it'd be such a rush to actually get that nostalgic pay-off.

I wish they would released that animated AvP...

Random, but I wonder if they'd ever look into anime maybe (separate from a live-action film of course).

I say this because I liked Star Wars: Visions and am hoping LotR: War of Rohirrim is good, I've also seen the anime adaptation of Cyberpunk has been popular (perhaps even more so than the game itself).

They did at one point but it got canned.

Never heard of that actually.

I found stuff dated in 2020 just about it being produced for Netflix but has remained unreleased.

That's the one.

If a new AvP does come, I hope it stops jerking off the Pred like almost every piece of AvP Media ever.

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Sep 29, 2022, 01:55:07 AMIf a new AvP does come, I hope it stops jerking off the Pred like almost every piece of AvP Media ever.

Could you elaborate on that a bit?

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Sep 29, 2022, 01:55:07 AMjerking off the Pred

Oh damn.

Quote from: OpenMaw on Sep 29, 2022, 02:19:37 PM

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Sep 29, 2022, 01:55:07 AMIf a new AvP does come, I hope it stops jerking off the Pred like almost every piece of AvP Media ever.

Could you elaborate on that a bit?

Unsure how much clearer I could be, in 11/10 AvP media the aliens are treated like trash and the Predators like gods, with the exception being worthless plot device preds just made to die

I mean the first AVP film had two preds die by the hands of one alien. The first AVP comic had several of the young Predator's getting basically annihlated by the aliens, and it was only Broken Tusk who really demonstrated prowess against the aliens.(Because he was very well trained and experienced.)

I would say what you're describing is actually more of a great Aliens EU problem than just the AVP comics. Predators are by classical definition "badass." That's their whole thing. They're all a bout manhood and ritual and they connect with the audience on that level. Which is why we get a lot of the confused adoration of Predator characters versus the Alien which is strictly on the other side of "Us vs Them."

I was more curious to hear what you would actually like to see done in terms of the characterization of the two creatures.

Like I said, those are worthless plotdevice Preds there only to die.
 When a Predator dies in AVP, it never looks like it's because the Aliens are dangerous, it's never because a Xenomorph outwits, overwhelms or beats the Predator, but because that specific Predator was stupid, Broken Tusk's party being rebellious dumb teens too busy murdering civilians to realize their incoming demise, Celtic being an idiot who was beating Grid around the entire fight only to then let himself die because he forgot acid was a thing, the crew at the start of Requiem shooting explosive weapons inside a ship.
 Hell, the whole setup of most AvP stories treats aliens as a joke, being bred to be killed by Predators, downright insulting.

An AvP story should treat both sides with respect, make both menacing, make both seem like equals, not be a one sided mess that is essentially a Predator being thrown into an Alien movie and killing everyone except the writer's pet.

I think one way to achieve that is to throw all the film and EU lore out the window and have the Predators genuinely surprised and backfooted by the existence of the Aliens.

Nah, you don't need to nerf the Predators with surprise. That only works once.

The Aliens are meant to be rare, not something common that all Predator knows about, this is not nerfing the Predator, specially because the Alien is nerfed in every AvP situation

Quote from: [cancerblack] on Sep 29, 2022, 08:12:55 PMI think one way to achieve that is to throw all the film and EU lore out the window and have the Predators genuinely surprised and backfooted by the existence of the Aliens.

Yes please.

It should be Alien to them, not a known quantity.

Watching them adapt and overcome that (or not...) with a bruised and beaten but unbowed "hero" Pred being the only survivor from his party (without resorting to explicit canon fodder Pred "extras") could be fun too.

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Sep 29, 2022, 08:29:59 PMThe Aliens are meant to be rare, not something common that all Predator knows about, this is not nerfing the Predator, specially because the Alien is nerfed in every AvP situation

They can be rare and familiar.

If the premise is "use surprise to make it harder for the Predator" then yes, you're trying to nerf the Predator and you're not really giving the Alien any credit.

"Aliens are only dangerous when you don't know what they are" is not glowing praise.

Funny, the premise of almost every AVP story/movie is "Predator knows and is prepared to hunt Alien", yet somehow that's not nerfing the Alien..

Yeah because the full premise is "...because they're a dangerous and interesting species to hunt."

If you want the conflict to be even actually have the Predators on a hunt and show the Aliens as the stealthy natural born hunter they are. Hunter vs Hunter. Let each play to their strengths.

"They're young, he's a cleaner, it's their first time" - we don't need a gimmick within a gimmick, just treat them both with love.

---

I should specify I don't think a first encounter is a bad idea for a story, it just doesn't solve the underlying issue past that first encounter.

Good to see the "dangerous and interesting" species being easy to capture and breed, with their queen being tied up and tortured to lay eggs while the Predators are literally treated as gods, such an equal and fair crossover that respects both sides ;D

Aliens are easy to capture what with the eggs they leave lying around often unattended, and their whole thing is breeding.

I'm not sure where I said the scenario you're presenting is better, you seem to have pulled this out of thin air. I just said "not new".

Quote from: SiL on Sep 29, 2022, 08:18:58 PMThat only works once.

Only needs to, for a film.

And then the sequel rolls around.

Like I said it could be an interesting story, but if the discussion is "don't make the Predators OP" it's a temporary fix. I'm trying to talk about making the whole concept more engaging for both.

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In the interest of actually providing thoughts and not just saying "no, not like that":

How to make it less one sided:

Understand their different hunting approaches and play with it.

Predators hunt like humans - lures, artificial camouflage, specialised weapons.

Aliens hunt like animals - lying in wait, stalking, attacks of opportunity.

Predators like high vantage points and open space to move around. They attack from above, often wounding at range but will come in for the kill.

Aliens like enclosed spaces, tight environments, attacking from any direction but from close proximity.

Give a location that allows both to be in their element - and have each try to draw the other to their home turf. Predators lose advantages when they are enclosed, Aliens are susceptible to being shot in the open.

Minimise wrestling matches. This isn't WWE. Let them stalk and hunt each other. The last act of Predator should be used as reference - cat and mouse tit for tat, but the Predator is now in Dutch's shoes.

Predators should try to keep Aliens at a distance. The problem is Aliens are really good at closing that distance, without them knowing. See also, getting the Predators into tight spaces.

Both creatures can always see each other. Invisibility means nothing to Aliens, Predators have multiple vision modes. Distance and visual obstruction are necessary for both to effectively stalk the other. The Alien wins out here with its preference for tight spaces.

Hand to hand fights should be short, brutal, and in the Alien's favour. They're both strong, but Aliens have the advantage of not giving a f**k. They're unrestrained, while the Predator is worrying about acid blood.

Predators want trophies. This should disadvantage them as they try to not just shoot everything in the head.

Predators like to get in close for the kill after maiming from a distance - this should be a mistake.

A Predator vs more than one Alien in an enclosed space is a dead Predator unless some serious effort is put into the fight choreography. And not without serious injury to the Predator.

The longer the hunt goes, the worse it gets for the Predators. Damaged or depleted weapons, wounds, exhaustion. Aliens don't tire and they heal quickly.

 The concept could be interesting if it's done in a well that has both the Alien and the Predator not knowing how to deal with eachother, we don't need some sort of long lasting rivalry or deep connection, we don't need their lores to be integral to one another.
 Say a human colony in a jungle planet has a mining facility and also serves as a training ground for the UACM, which is very necessary atm due to the whole UUP war, a Predator recently started hunting in that planet and the disappearance of promising recruits is being blamed on UUP spies, creating a kind of who done scenario from the human POV, meanwhile, the miners find a derelict ship and you already know how it goes, eventually this leads to a lone Xenomorph heading towards the camp, and it turns into a situation of a single Xeno (Big Chap) vs a single Predator equipped to only hunt humans(Jungle Hunter) vs unprepared marines who don't really trust eachother.

To be completely fair to the AVP Comics - Capturing the queen was a very dangerous endeavor that got a lot of Predators killed as I recall. I would tend to agree that it does dampen the initial outing between the two if we see they're already very familiar with one another. Any film adaptation of that original comic would do well to cut out anything dealing with seeing inside the Predator's world. Seeing so explicitly, yes, the Predator's have a queen, and yes, they are harvesting her for eggs... And yes she has to find a way to sneak a "royal" egg past them to mess up their hunt... It's a lot, and it puts the aliens into an underdog posture from the start. Which isn't helped by the conventional wisdom that the alien really does need to lose the match. I'm speaking from a mainstream audience perspective on that. The humans are more than likely going to side with the Predator if any such alliances are to be made, and the aliens are the ones we really don't want to win.

I'm very much in favor of going one on one. I think it raises the tension in each encounter, and with each bit of damage each creature takes. if it's plotted well and organically you can have things starting off very controlled with both creatures at full power, and as Sil was saying, Predator gets tired, Alien begins to take immense physical damage... Until the two are left torn up and fighting like barbaric animals. Down to the last ounce of primal energy.

One thing to consider also with regards to the Predator and his vision modes... He has to keep going back and forth when he's dealing with both humans and aliens. While he's tracking the humans he's basically blind to the alien, and vice versa.

I still don't see how them knowing each other means much in the context of them fighting.

Aliens are born ignorant, so they never know the Predators. They just wake up and choose violence.

The second Predators realise Aliens bleed acid and can see them cloaked, they've basically learned everything they need to know. They're another animal at that point -- but one with an aggressive reproductive strategy and that can become a fully-grown, apex hunter within a few hours of birth.

The only thing them not knowing about Aliens beforehand would really justify is them not destroying eggs, only to realise later -- whoops, now there are shitloads of Aliens.

And as we've seen, you don't need them to be new to have that happen.

It's a fun premise but feels more like dressing than anything substantial to the narrative.

I think Prey showed it can be substantial.

Quote from: SiL on Sep 29, 2022, 09:08:32 PMIn the interest of actually providing thoughts and not just saying "no, not like that":

How to make it less one sided:

Understand their different hunting approaches and play with it.

Predators hunt like humans - lures, artificial camouflage, specialised weapons.

Aliens hunt like animals - lying in wait, stalking, attacks of opportunity.

Predators like high vantage points and open space to move around. They attack from above, often wounding at range but will come in for the kill.

Aliens like enclosed spaces, tight environments, attacking from any direction but from close proximity.

Give a location that allows both to be in their element - and have each try to draw the other to their home turf. Predators lose advantages when they are enclosed, Aliens are susceptible to being shot in the open.

Minimise wrestling matches. This isn't WWE. Let them stalk and hunt each other. The last act of Predator should be used as reference - cat and mouse tit for tat, but the Predator is now in Dutch's shoes.

Predators should try to keep Aliens at a distance. The problem is Aliens are really good at closing that distance, without them knowing. See also, getting the Predators into tight spaces.

Both creatures can always see each other. Invisibility means nothing to Aliens, Predators have multiple vision modes. Distance and visual obstruction are necessary for both to effectively stalk the other. The Alien wins out here with its preference for tight spaces.

Hand to hand fights should be short, brutal, and in the Alien's favour. They're both strong, but Aliens have the advantage of not giving a f**k. They're unrestrained, while the Predator is worrying about acid blood.

Predators want trophies. This should disadvantage them as they try to not just shoot everything in the head.

Predators like to get in close for the kill after maiming from a distance - this should be a mistake.

A Predator vs more than one Alien in an enclosed space is a dead Predator unless some serious effort is put into the fight choreography. And not without serious injury to the Predator.

The longer the hunt goes, the worse it gets for the Predators. Damaged or depleted weapons, wounds, exhaustion. Aliens don't tire and they heal quickly.

Goddammit, when are you gonna direct this thing !?

I don't really think there's a continuity where the Alien isn't known to the Predator's generally. Maybe they're really rare, and it's not like in the comics where Predators have aliens... But Predator 2 fairly certainly, at least in my mind, negates that chance.

However, having that moment where the Predator doesn't know, and the Alien doesn't know.. and they both have that "Whoa... What? What are you?" moment could be a very dramatic moment. Similar to that moment in Terminator 2 when T-800 and T-1000 first engage each other and they have that "gridlocK" moment.

And yeah, that would be for the one movie that you could take advantage of those things, but... Let's be real if there is a relight for the AVP franchise, where they actually get it right... It's from square one. The Paul Anderson and Strause movies won't be under considering. At least, not by my estimation. I'm not saying it will be a reboot, but it will not consider their parameters on itself. It will be AVP again, not AVP 3. So why not have the Alien and Predator not expecting to intermingle in the first film, and then have the second film up the stakes ala Aliens and Predator 2. Have the big battle between the two species later. Have the first one be about the personal test of mettle, will, skill, and capabilities of one another.

Also I don't know that I agree that the Predator only has a couple of things to really know. I think we don't even really know everything about the Alien. Its danger is in the unpredictable nature of the creature.

On the flipside, I think the Predator as a character is full of wild cards. Again, down to the personality any given writer wants to play with. Young, old? Fast, slow? Considerate, aggressive? Rookie, experienced? All of these parameters can dramatically play with how the battles go.

The only time an Alien was like "what are you?" was the original cut off Brett's death and Jonesy. They just kill. They really don't give a shit.

I'm not saying Predators would know everything - just everything they need to.

 As @Local Trouble  likes  to say, a competently lead group of human soldiers is more than enough to wipe out an Alien infestation. Predators are seasoned hunters. They'd get it pretty quickly.

If we're going to talk about not treating the Aliens like crap, let's not just flip the script and start ignoring the Predators' strengths.

Quote from: SiL on Sep 30, 2022, 07:15:21 AMIf we're going to talk about not treating the Aliens like crap, let's not just flip the script and start ignoring the Predators' strengths.

Oh I agree. I don't think having the alien be a surprise to the Predator necessarily means it has to be putting him at a disadvantage. I think the real nugget of wisdom there is whatever an AVP film chooses to do, it has to be honest about the characters. Alien, Predator, Human. They all have to be treated with some respect. Which really just means written with some thought to their internal motivations. The story should move where they move.

I don't know, at this point just adapting the original comic book might be the way to go. I'd be curious to see if that anime was an adaptation of the original comic or something wholly new.

I think it was something new.

And yeah, that's what I was getting at. Th being new to each other doesn't actually fix anything if the writers still don't take any care with it. Old enemies or new acquaintances, either can be respectful or another mess.

 I really disagree with your comments about the Aliens. The Xenomorphs, being the weapons they are, specialize themselves to hunt down and harvest whatever local creatures they came out of.

 The human spawned Xenos seem to toy with their prey, as if aware of their fear, they know how our technology works and know how to use it against us, the animal born Xenomorphs are far quicker and deadlier, but also more reckless and simple minded, specializing in bull rushing and picking off targets in large groups without them noticing, perfect for dealing with social animals such as cattle and canines. There is also the fact that the Xenomorphs seem to retain some knowledge from their hosts, something that is explored in the comics and novels iirc, an example of this in the movies being the Queen making her nest in the reactor, she knew that to take her out they would have to give up the entire colony, she also knew how to use elevators and the like. Trying to say Xenomorphs are simply ignorant and violent is wrong, they are made to be the perfect predator to whatever creature they used as a host, this is a concept that should be explored more, specially in an AvP story

I don't think you understood my comments.

The point of saying they're born ignorant is it doesn't matter for the Alien's characterisation whether this is the first time they've met Predators or not. They're always born in the film. They then adapt very quickly to whatever environment they're in.

The Aliens set up a hive in a dark, enclosed area. If they understood the reactor at all they would've left when it started blaring alarms at them. The Queen only knew how to use the elevator because she just watched Ripley use one. Same with the Alien knowing how to use the liquid nitrogen in AR.

They don't inherently know about our technology, but they're fast learners.

If Predators are cautious and stalking, the only things they need to really worry about outside of observing their behaviour is the acid blood and that they can see them cloaked. The rest is careful observation and, well, hunting, and is necessary whether the Aliens are brand new or a known entity.

The hive could do with an upgrade frankly, as I am tired of seeing incompetence being the only reason the Alien wins, when it comes to people with access to firearms anyway.

Quote from: BlueMarsalis79 on Oct 01, 2022, 12:12:54 PMThe hive could do with an upgrade frankly, as I am tired of seeing incompetence being the only reason the Alien wins, when it comes to people with access to firearms anyway.

Interesting to note about ALIENS, that notion of the primary heat exchangers is not in the original treatment. Not exactly.

He makes references instead to low visibility. Hearing chatter of gun fire, seeing shapes in the smoke. Acid. Screams. The marines are able to engage the aliens with all their guns, and they still take heavy casualties in the hive. I'd be curious to ask Cameron why he felt the need to make that change beyond the arbitrary heightening of suspense. There was plenty to go around as it is.

Instead, Gorman (who doesn't get knocked out in the treatment) orders the APC to start firing its guns into the hive. Hicks tells him to hold off because they could hit the reactor. So the idea is there, but it doesn't disarm the marines in such a contrived manner.

I find it funny that taking the prepared aspect of the Predator is seen as nerfing but taking the unknown aspect of Alien in every single AvP crossover is completely fine

Because the Predator being prepared and still losing to the Alien is a greater show of the Alien's capability than the Predator being caught off-guard by an unknown quantity.

The "unknown aspect" has never actually been a thing Aliens rely on. The greatest unknown is literally knowing where they are, not what they are.

The crew of the Nostromo don't perish because they don't know what they're dealing with, they perish because they don't have the resources to deal with it. Same with the prisoners, same with the marines.

The unknown aspect is a core part of literally every Alien movie, what are you on about?

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Trying to argue that the people not knowing what they are dealing is somehow unrelated to the events of the first 3 Alien movies is straight up wrong

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Oct 01, 2022, 08:30:18 PMTrying to argue that the people not knowing what they are dealing is somehow unrelated to the events of the first 3 Alien movies is straight up wrong

I have to agree with this. The crew of the Nostromo have no idea what they're dealing with. Ash says as much in his Perfect Organism Speech. That elements is always at play. Even in Resurrection there is that element thematically in the dialogue between Ripley and Wren. "You can't teach it tricks" etc.

Where and how the battle takes place is very important. A writer can write themselves into very rough corners and end up having to fall back on contrivances to overcome them. Which then becomes very unsatisfying to the audience. This is one of the weaknesses of the two AVP films we got. They don't feel authentic, and they feel compelled to add gimmicks, as if the concept alone doesn't carry enough compelling opportunities.

How has it been a core part of the Alien's effectiveness, when an hour into every movie everyone knows what they are?

Once the Alien killed Brett, the crew knew what they were dealing with. They still died.

Ripley spent the next two movies telling people what they were dealing with. Her not being believed, and environmental factors, gave the Alien bigger advantages than "the unknown".

"Where is the Alien, when will it attack next?" are the unknown elements that actually matter. "Where has the Alien taken them, why does it kill some and not others" is fun to discuss and sets a vibe. "I've never seen this before" has pretty short term benefits.

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Quote from: OpenMaw on Oct 01, 2022, 08:44:30 PMI have to agree with this. The crew of the Nostromo have no idea what they're dealing with. Ash says as much in his Perfect Organism Speech. That elements is always at play. Even in Resurrection there is that element thematically in the dialogue between Ripley and Wren. "You can't teach it tricks" etc.

You're overstating both of these. The Nostromo crew don't die because "they don't know what they're dealing with", they die because they're on a tin can in space and can't just shoot the thing.

The military on the Auriga are arguably just stupid; they know the things bleed acid, hence using liquid nitrogen, but they don't put them in acid-proof cages. They didn't fail because they "didn't know what they were dealing with", they failed because they were arrogant.

"The unknown" of the Alien's true nature or thought process is fun to talk about but pretty irrelevant when discussing them having a fight with someone when we see pretty clearly there's not much mystery to that. Alien stalks, Alien appears, Alien captures or kills.

 A hour into every movie?
One hour into Alien, the crew thinks it's rat sized and are trying to trap it in a net
One hour into Aliens, the squad walks into a hive after not taking anything Ripley said seriously, and thinking they can simply outgun them.
One hour into Alien 3, the Alien is taking out multiple people and no one is aware of it, and later even Ripley is a bit lost because she notices how The Dragon looks and acts different.

 Do you know how different those situations would play out if the basics of the Aliens were made aware to every human like how it is to every Predator in AvP? Completely different, Nostromo? Kane is abandoned. Hadley's Hope? Nuked. The Prison? Everyone takes Ripley seriously the first time, thus starting the plan against the Xenomorph before more people die. And of course, Spike's owner would identify the marks on him and something would have been done about it.

 Knowledge makes a f**kton of difference, the Predator is always prepared, that is a downright unfair matchup.

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Oct 01, 2022, 09:16:22 PMA hour into every movie?

You're really going to pick on the specific minute? :-\

QuoteCompletely different, Nostromo? Kane is abandoned.

Dallas wouldn't abandon Kane. He'd try to freeze him. Ash, the guy who is sabotaging the mission, would back him up. "Sure it'll work."

QuoteHadley's Hope? Nuked.

They didn't know if it was the Aliens or not. They had to find out -- when they did, they wanted to nuke it, yes.

QuoteThe Prison? Everyone takes Ripley seriously the first time, thus starting the plan against the Xenomorph before more people die. And of course, Spike's owner would identify the marks on him and something would have been done about it.

Done what about it, exactly?

QuoteKnowledge makes a f**kton of difference, the Predator is always prepared, that is a downright unfair matchup.

You really must think the Aliens suck if the only way they have any chance is to completely blindside their prey and hope they kill enough of them before they work it out. I like to give them more credit.

But let's flip it for a second. This is where we started:

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Sep 29, 2022, 07:33:06 PMWhen a Predator dies in AVP, it never looks like it's because the Aliens are dangerous, it's never because a Xenomorph outwits, overwhelms or beats the Predator, but because that specific Predator was stupid,

I agree, this is so often the case. But:

QuoteBroken Tusk's party being rebellious dumb teens too busy murdering civilians to realize their incoming demise,

So the Predators know about the Aliens -- and still die because they're idiots. How would them not knowing about the Aliens make this any better? Now they die because they didn't know the Aliens existed and were coming from them. Aliens didn't really need to outwit, outsmart, or outmatch them, did they? They just surprised them.

QuoteCeltic being an idiot who was beating Grid around the entire fight only to then let himself die because he forgot acid was a thing,

How would Celtic not knowing what an Alien is fix this? Surely he'd be even more justified thinking the net would hold if he doesn't know about the Alien?

Quotethe crew at the start of Requiem shooting explosive weapons inside a ship.

How would that Predator not knowing what an Alien is help fix this scenario?

Also, how is it

Quote11/10 AvP media the aliens are treated like trash and the Predators like gods,

But you just listed a non-comprehensive list of AvP stories treating Predators like morons?

Let's be clear here: Your solution to "the Aliens never outwit, outsmart, or overpower Predators, the Predators just act dumb and die" is to ... make the Predators actually dumb when it comes to the Aliens ... ? The Aliens still don't overpower, outwit, or outsmart anything, the Predators now just have a reason to make these mistakes that get them killed. We've solved nothing, other than making the Predators not look quite as bad.

The idea that Aliens can only be effective if they're attacking a completely ignorant force is more insulting than Wolf manhandling Aliens in the sewer.

 You were the one that mentioned one hour lol

QuoteDallas wouldn't abandon Kane. He'd try to freeze him. Ash, the guy who is sabotaging the mission, would back him up. "Sure it'll work."

Nope, the moment the egg was described, everyone would know it was a Xeno egg batch and leave asap, because the basics of the Xenomorph XX121 would be known to everyone.

QuoteThey didn't know if it was the Aliens or not. They had to find out -- when they did, they wanted to nuke it, yes.

They decided to Nuke it only after getting their ass kicked, they went there to rescue people, not because "they had to find out", none of them knew what a Xenomorph XX121 was and the only person that did wasn't being taken seriously. If they all knew what one was and saw that everyone in town was in a single area, they'd assume it was the hive and would nuke the site, even if they went into investigate, they'd notice the hive walls and leave.

QuoteDone what about it, exactly?

What kind of question is that? If they knew the dog was impregnated with a Xenomorph, it likely would have been put down and then thrown into the fire like the rest.

QuoteYou really must think the Aliens suck if the only way they have any chance is to completely blindside their prey and hope they kill enough of them before they work it out. I like to give them more credit.

More credit is hoping their prey is stupid? Good to know.

 As for everything else you quoted Sil, those are examples of the Predators only losing when they are specific ones made as worthless background characters meant to die to move the plot forward.
 The Predators are treated like gods, except for 2-5 useless background Preds that at most have a cool design, they are there only to die within the first act while the main Pred prooceds to clean the floor with every single Xenomorph he faces. A Predator essentially letting himself get killed is not nearly the same as dozens of Xenomorphs being killed off in seconds by a single Predator, specially when the writing is garbage and you get something like Requiem where the Predator is a complete moron and every Xenomorph becomes braindead when in contact with him.
 
 Also, it's very obvious them knowning about the Aliens is not my only point, they are downgraded in more ways than that, being made weaker, less durable and stupid.

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Also, the unknown is also a huge factor in the Predator movies, if every human knew what they were dealing with the movies would have been very different.

Are you actually paying attention to what I'm saying or are you just arguing for the sake of it?

Like:

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Oct 01, 2022, 10:40:26 PMAlso, it's very obvious them knowning about the Aliens is not my only point, they are downgraded in more ways than that, being made weaker, less durable and stupid.

Yeah, and if you actually paid attention to literally anything I was writing you'd know I agreed and that my only argument is "making the Aliens unknown to the Predator doesn't fix any of that".

That's it. That's the whole point I'm making. Swapping "Predators need to be idiots for the Alien to win" with "Predators need to be ignorant for the Alien win" doesn't address all the other bullshit writers do to nerf Aliens at every opportunity.

We both want Aliens to outwit, outsmart and overpower Predators. Aliens being unknown to Predators has nothing to do with that. You could have Predators fighting Aliens for the first time and still have it turn into "Predator God destroys Alien trash".

I want to discuss how to actually fix that issue.

QuoteAlso, the unknown is also a huge factor in the Predator movies, if every human knew what they were dealing with the movies would have been very different.

Predator 2 or The Predator both featured teams specifically set up to study and track Predators. Both featured them getting slaughtered.

Quote from: SiL on Oct 02, 2022, 05:07:35 AMPredator 2 or The Predator both featured teams specifically set up to study and track Predators. Both featured them getting slaughtered.

In a way that does play into not knowing though. At least with Keyes' team. The Predator is just stupid, period. Keyes' team was relatively well aware of what they were dealing with and did the best with what intel they had. Not knowing that the Predator was capable of seeing in more spectrums than just IR... That lack of knowledge, is what got them killed.

They had multiple ways of monitoring the Predator and realised quickly that it could see them and their plan was bust.

What got them killed was the scene desperately trying to recreate the marines going into the hive in Aliens but without an explanation for why nobody listened to the monitoring team.

We're really going in circles here, is nobody else getting dizzy?

Quote from: SiL on Oct 02, 2022, 11:25:32 AMThey had multiple ways of monitoring the Predator and realised quickly that it could see them and their plan was bust.

They didn't. Harrigan did. Keyes told him to shut up. Their plant failed because they did not take into account that he could see on more than one spectrum. Not knowing got them killed. They did not know that, and it was not factored into their plan in any form of contingency as even a possibility.

Harrigan is still someone who was present and ignored.

They had contingencies for the Predator not falling for the trap. They move into a "defensive formation" that was really dumb.

But this is, again, really missing the forest for the trees. They knew about the Predator, his habits, etc - he still surprised them. Knowing about the Predator doesn't guarantee you success, anymore than the Predator knowing about humans guarantees them success.

Even if they knew he could switch vision modes, he's a cunning, thinking, intelligent organism, just like a person. Just because you can design a sophisticated trap based on knowing your prey doesn't mean it's guaranteed to work.

Which goes back to my actual point, which at this point I can only assume people are stubbornly ignoring on purpose:

Predators not knowing about the Aliens doesn't fix the actual problems with how their encounters are written.

You can argue it doesn't, which won't have an effect on the fact it dismisses a core part of how the Alien stories go and is one of the many factors that make the crossover favor the Predator

Quote from: SiL on Oct 02, 2022, 07:58:21 PMHarrigan is still someone who was present and ignored.

That isn't what you said though. You were talking specifically about Keyes' team and what they did.

Quote from: SiL on Oct 02, 2022, 07:58:21 PMThey had contingencies for the Predator not falling for the trap. They move into a "defensive formation" that was really dumb.

I mean I wouldn't call that a contingency. Switching strategy in a combat situation isn't the same as "we need a completely new plan because this has gone tits up."  I do agree though, that this is a result of how closely the sequence is copying the scene from Aliens, but it lacks the Gorman character being in charge and incompetent/failing to react.

Quote from: SiL on Oct 02, 2022, 07:58:21 PMBut this is, again, really missing the forest for the trees. They knew about the Predator, his habits, etc - he still surprised them. Knowing about the Predator doesn't guarantee you success, anymore than the Predator knowing about humans guarantees them success.

They didn't know enough, is the point. They had some idea of his habits, what he was up to, and that he saw by infrared. They were completely ignorant and unaware of his technological capabilities beyond that.

Quote from: SiL on Oct 02, 2022, 07:58:21 PMEven if they knew he could switch vision modes, he's a cunning, thinking, intelligent organism, just like a person. Just because you can design a sophisticated trap based on knowing your prey doesn't mean it's guaranteed to work.

Granted, but one does not discount the other. You're better off going into a combat situation with as much knowledge as possible versus going into it ignorant and having to learn along the way. That's not even up for debate. Ignorance will always lead you down a worse path than having knowledge and being able to effectively utilize the knowledge against your foes.

Quote from: SiL on Oct 02, 2022, 07:58:21 PMWhich goes back to my actual point, which at this point I can only assume people are stubbornly ignoring on purpose:

Predators not knowing about the Aliens doesn't fix the actual problems with how their encounters are written.

And I don't disagree with that, Sil. My fundamental point is that all of these factors DO play a part in how they are written.

The reality is you have to write the aliens up to the Predator's capabilities, not the other way around. The Predator should be able to contend with the aliens by simple fact that they have so much technology at their disposal. Any ranged engagement is going to require very well crafted "staging" to not have the aliens just be reduced to smoldering corpses.

Back to the subject of not knowing, if the Predator is not aware of the Alien's presence at all, that gives the Alien a first strike advantage over the Predator. If the Predator is over there focused on the human characters, he's not even in the right vision mode to detect the incoming strike. So to say it doesn't make a difference is disingenuous. That does not mean it is the right way to go. It is a potential tool for any writer working on a project such as this.

Quote from: PAS Spinelli on Oct 02, 2022, 09:23:57 PMYou can argue it doesn't, which won't have an effect on the fact it dismisses a core part of how the Alien stories go and is one of the many factors that make the crossover favor the Predator

I would say the Predator's advantage is the big f*ck off plasma weapon on his shoulder which neutralizes (potentially) two of the alien's advantages. Shoulder cannon "fuses and cauterizes" wounds, meaning that acid splash would be greatly negated, and it eliminates a large potential for the alien to close the gap.

Quote from: OpenMaw on Oct 03, 2022, 11:12:40 AMI do agree though, that this is a result of how closely the sequence is copying the scene from Aliens, but it lacks the Gorman character being in charge and incompetent/failing to react.

Well, Garber fills that role while Harrigan is basically Ripley.

Speaking of that scene, yes, it does heavily copy hive sequence from Aliens but I think Hopkins did a damn good job copying it. I mean, yes it's quite similair but not in an annoying way, at least for me. It's still a very fun to watch beatifully shot scene so I don't mind really

Also, Cameron himself lifted quite a few plot bits from Alien, so, you know, nobody's blameless

Quote from: Kradan on Oct 03, 2022, 11:53:11 AM

Quote from: OpenMaw on Oct 03, 2022, 11:12:40 AMI do agree though, that this is a result of how closely the sequence is copying the scene from Aliens, but it lacks the Gorman character being in charge and incompetent/failing to react.

Well, Garber fills that role while Harrigan is basically Ripley.

Speaking of that scene, yes, it does heavily copy hive sequence from Aliens but I think Hopkins did a damn good job copying it. I mean, yes it's quite similair but not in an annoying way, at least for me. It's still a very fun to watch beatifully shot scene so I don't mind really

Also, Cameron hims

elf lifted quite a few plot bits from Alien, so, you know, nobody's blameless

Garber is not an analog for Gorman. He's not in command, and he's not incompetent in the moment of crisis. Keyes is the leader of the operation. The sequence in Predator 2 follows the form, but not the function. That scene in Aliens acts as a transfer of power from the marines to Ripley. I'm simply saying the structure of the scene is similar, but it is not operating with the same brain as Aliens.

Also i'm not blaming anyone or anything. The point is that the Predator 2 scene was copied without completely thinking about what it was doing in Aliens, and what it needed to be doing in Predator 2.

The right twist was to have Keyes pull his team out, and the Predator cutting them down in the attempt. Instead of standing there completely unable to see and unable to protect themselves.

Quote from: OpenMaw on Oct 03, 2022, 02:01:33 PMAlso i'm not blaming anyone or anything. The point is that the Predator 2 scene was copied without completely thinking about what it was doing in Aliens, and what it needed to be doing in Predator 2.

And I'm not saying you are. I was speaking in general, addressing an issue some people have with meat locker scene. My point is thar, yes, it is a copy but it's one done well IMHO

I feel like it's less of a mean copy and more of an intentional homage, what with the Alien skull poking through later in the film & the core concept of the Predator films having to do with remixing contemporary action films and tropes, but with a Predator in. The line between 'rip-off' and 'homage' is always in the eye of the beholder.

Predator 2 is the very definition of pastiche.

Quote from: SiL on Oct 05, 2022, 09:41:19 PMPredator 2 is the very definition of pastiche.

Indeed. What with the punk attitude in remixing contemporary action, the more satirical tone lifted from RoboCop and the insane Predator at the helm --I always say this -- it feels like a distillation of 2000AD & similar mags with a Predator thrown in.

Boy do I need to read the Dredd crossover.