Quote"We are [going to make another], we are," Scott told EW from the set of All the Money in the World. "I think what we have to do is gradually drift away from the alien stuff." Say what? Scott's Alien: Covenant, which came out earlier this year, felt like a return to some legit old-school scares but failed to set the domestic box office ablaze (though, combined with international sales, it ended with north of $240 million in ticket revenue). "People say, 'You need more alien, you need more face pulling, need more chest bursting,' so I put a lot of that in Covenant and it fitted nicely. But I think if you go again you need to start finding another solution that's more interesting. I think AI is becoming much more dangerous and therefore more interesting."
It's true that Covenant's best moments tended to include Michael Fassbender, who was doing double duty as good-or-bad androids David and Walter. (We could go on here about how Fassbender should probably be in the Oscar race for this "fingering" recorder scene alone but have been advised against it.)
"Fassbender was an AI," continues Scott. "Ian Holm [from Alien] was an AI; Roy Batty [from Blade Runner] was an AI; so was Rachael [from Blade Runner]."
Scott brings up a Facebook experiment from last summer to prove his point. "They put two AIs together and they were communing. It already invented a f—ing language! And they couldn't decipher what the language was so they had to switch them off. What was said and where's it gone? They could have already implemented something we don't know."
Uh, we're scared already.
http://ew.com/movies/2017/12/04/ridley-scott-alien-franchise-covenant/ (http://ew.com/movies/2017/12/04/ridley-scott-alien-franchise-covenant/)
you can't have an alien film with no alien at all, sure set it in the same universe but please don't attach the alien name to it
i am both worried and intrigued as to where this can go
I would take anything from Ridley with a grain of salt since either he could pass on or Fox gets acquired by Disney or Comcast/Universal and they'll put everything on freeze and asses what to do with the franchise.
does anyone else feel like we're just leading to an eventual reboot? scary though
Quote from: trilobite on Dec 04, 2017, 06:41:59 PM
does anyone else feel like we're just leading to an eventual reboot? scary though
If the sale occurs, I fear that's what is going to happen. I'm not keen on that idea since the first three films are great on their own. As much the as the prequels have issues, their far better with Covenant competing as the tie of third best with Alien3 imho. Though, studio meddling starting with Alien 3 led us to the situation we are at the moment.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Dec 04, 2017, 05:54:38 PM
"People say, 'You need more alien, you need more face pulling, need more chest bursting,' so I put a lot of that in Covenant and it fitted nicely. But I think if you go again you need to start finding another solution that's more interesting. I think AI is becoming much more dangerous and therefore more interesting."
1. No, it didn't fit nicely.
2. It is interesting but why it has to be main core of Alien movie?
Thanks for posting.
Give me the impression that Walter will return.
Quote from: trilobite on Dec 04, 2017, 06:41:59 PM
does anyone else feel like we're just leading to an eventual reboot? scary though
Don't see why they have to reboot it when they can just create a new separate movie, not connected to any previous ones.
Otherwise they'll have to the introduce the xeno again and so on.
I think a Blomkamp movie is more likely. With someone else writing ofcourse.
So it's confirmed that we will get another David Movie, after Sir Scott once again mentioned how lame the Alien has become. ::)
Good god. Call this movie Walter:Resurrection
Im serious.
I don't fear a reboot at this point, I welcome one
In Covenent I felt David was far more scary than the Aliens, especially in the closing scene. I think future films will lead to David creating an Alien Queen and then being killed/damaged beyond saving by his creation. A very poetic end considering his agenda and motivation. The Alien does need a decent story now though, perhaps Blomkamps vision of following up on Aliens all out action is just what the series now needs
Hey, asshole. The movie is about the ALIEN. Not your boy toy David.
Oh no. Big drooling aliens that want to jump out and rip you to bits are fun and scary. A wonky robot playing science isn't.
We are going to do another
Alien David movie. "People say, 'You need more alien, you need more face pulling, need more chest bursting" - said no one ever, but since the a shitty version of a xenomorph for whatever dubious reason was introduced people are right to be twice as dissapointed, for ruining the immense potential of Prometheus sequel and ultimately ruining Alien. Good for you if you disagree, not a crime, but i know i'm not alone on this.
Whatever happens i do hope the prequels are a full reboot in the end that have nothing to do with Alien classics, they just don't gel at all.
And let's be honest as an Alien film, Covenant is pretty mediocre all around, the pondering on the AI thing wasn't much better, it's worlds apart from Blade Runner.
Quote from: Rorkes on Dec 04, 2017, 07:52:05 PM
In Covenent I felt David was far more scary than the Aliens, especially in the closing scene.
Not surprised, the xenomorphs in Covenant are lame as hell, behaviorally and visually, as a really average faceless cgi minion monster, that thing is perfectly catered for the superhero crowd. AvP movie with that kind of presentation could be forgiven.
Ridley is right. A new movie focusing on David would be fantastic. A great way to revive the franchise, rather than bogging it down in the tropes of the past.
Can't wait for Covenant 2, I had a blast with Covenant 1 and Prometheus. Keep them coming Ridley Scott. :)
Maybe with David as an Alien Leader, the one who could turn the Covenant ship into the Alien's hive on Origae-6, or something similar like that. But story primary about Android without any Aliens in it, set in the same Alien world. . I guess that is useless idea, and that is stuff for Blade Runner instead. I dont have anything against androids in Alien films by the way, David is the villain ok, I understand that. But we just want more new or old Aliens, and somehow got some connection with the dead Engineer from the first movie, is this so hard to hear?
But we had the artificial intelligence (AI) with Ash in the original Alien film (along with the original alien) and we've seen both (AI & aliens) in all subsequent films. For me, and I understand I may only be speaking for myself, the thing I enjoyed most with Prometheus in 2012 was the first look at the engineers. From my small group of interested friends, no one was really asking for more AI or more aliens; we were all kind of interested in the engineer. Unless the third "Promo" film has more engineer stuff, I'm not really interested in seeing David anymore (or Walter), but that's just me. I thank Sir Riddles for his vision and all that he has done, but if anything is "cooked," I'm thinking it's the same thing we've been seeing since the original film(s), so I'm kind of interested in something truly new...not sure what's left since Riddles doesn't seem interested in exploring more with the engineers? David's escapades are interesting, but I don't think his character is that interesting to devote an entire film to it; I'll pass on the next on Riddles. Thanks for the memories though. You're still a genius.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 04, 2017, 08:34:20 PM
Ridley is right. A new movie focusing on David would be fantastic. A great way to revive the franchise, rather than bogging it down in the tropes of the past.
Can't wait for Covenant 2, I had a blast with Covenant 1 and Prometheus. Keep them coming Ridley Scott. :)
Yep, it's perfect for the superhero crowd.
I dont have any problem with David as a character. . only if there would be still some Aliens in it. Just a small example - I also like Bishop from the second film, but I dont watch it just only because of him, is that clear?
i'm totally for exploring the engineers more and their race and culture, i'm not in the group of people who believe david wiped out the entirely of the species in a:c
Quote from: chris_bert on Dec 04, 2017, 08:41:04 PM
But we had the artificial intelligence (AI) with Ash in the original Alien film (along with the original alien) and we've seen both (AI & aliens) in all subsequent films. For me, and I understand I may only be speaking for myself, the thing I enjoyed most with Prometheus in 2012 was the first look at the engineers. From my small group of interested friends, no one was really asking for more AI or more aliens; we were all kind of interested in the engineer. Unless the third "Promo" film has more engineer stuff, I'm not really interested in seeing David anymore (or Walter), but that's just me.
And Ash was far more effective than David's fairy tale potrayal of the AI.
Quote from: trilobite on Dec 04, 2017, 08:49:37 PM
i'm totally for exploring the engineers more and their race and culture, i'm not in the group of people who believe david wiped out the entirely of the species in a:c
But if they really were engineers, then they are not even worth exploring, perhaps they weren't though,
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 04, 2017, 08:34:20 PM
Ridley is right. A new movie focusing on David would be fantastic. A great way to revive the franchise, rather than bogging it down in the tropes of the past.
Tropes of the past have been use in Covenant. In kinda disappointing way.
I don't mind movie with David as a main villain. The problem is that's gonna be
Alien prequel.
Scott contradicts himself. He says the beast is cooked and they should drift away from the alien stuff and then he wants to make ...
Alien prequel? Hmm.
I have a feeling that Ridley is gonna go full throttle with the
"Alien is a biomechanoid" meme and imbue the final Xenomorph
with an AI of some sort.
"David's spirit will be in all of them".
:laugh:
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 04, 2017, 08:50:20 PM
Quote from: chris_bert on Dec 04, 2017, 08:41:04 PM
But we had the artificial intelligence (AI) with Ash in the original Alien film (along with the original alien) and we've seen both (AI & aliens) in all subsequent films. For me, and I understand I may only be speaking for myself, the thing I enjoyed most with Prometheus in 2012 was the first look at the engineers. From my small group of interested friends, no one was really asking for more AI or more aliens; we were all kind of interested in the engineer. Unless the third "Promo" film has more engineer stuff, I'm not really interested in seeing David anymore (or Walter), but that's just me.
And Ash was far more effective than a David's fairy tale potrayal of the AI.
Quote from: trilobite on Dec 04, 2017, 08:49:37 PM
i'm totally for exploring the engineers more and their race and culture, i'm not in the group of people who believe david wiped out the entirely of the species in a:c
But if they really were engineers, than they are not even worth exploring, perhaps they weren't though,
they may not have been part of the same faction of engineers, but they were clearly the same race
Quote from: skhellter on Dec 04, 2017, 08:54:02 PM
Inb4 Ridley goes full throttle with the "Alien is a BioMECHAnoid" meme
and gives the final Xenomorph an AI of some sort.
Inb4 they all have "David's spirit". ;D :laugh:
(imagine the SALT)
your posts are rather difficult to understand ha
Of course David did not kill entirely all the Engineers, maybe all the ones in the city, but not the rest of them on other planets far, far away. And he also did not create the Xenomorphs, he just recreated them by using the patogen, the actual Aliens and other their variations already existed a long time ago. Patogen is the original blueprint for all the Alien stuff in Alien films, ask the Engineers where they find it, or how they created it.
you need a masters degree in 4chan/nerdspeak. ;D
Not sure how I feel about this. I loved the Neomorph, I loved the Xeno (apart from the shitty CGI when it walks down the ladder), I loved the embryos (both humans and facehuggers). If Ridley means having a bigger story in the center apart from Alien chase scenes, then I'm all for it, but we NEED Aliens and we need embryos.
FOX are NOT selling the ALIEN or X-MEN Franchises. Disney wants to buy OLD MOVIE RIGHTS like the original DIE HARD(1988) and the 24 TV SERIES.
And those talks are for the future. IF they make a total reboot of ALIEN is AFTER this new movie from Ridley Scott. A total reboot is for 2020-2021.
Remember Ridley Scott is way faster than 4 years from now. Ridley could release his new ALIEN prequel in 2019 Worldwide.
AI has always been a part of the franchise. But so have aliens. Keep both, or start something fresh.
Quote from: genocyber on Dec 04, 2017, 07:55:58 PM
Hey, asshole. The movie is about the ALIEN. Not your boy toy David.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I guess someone had enough Ridley-ism ;D
Quote from: trilobite on Dec 04, 2017, 08:49:37 PM
i'm totally for exploring the engineers more and their race and culture, i'm not in the group of people who believe david wiped out the entirely of the species in a:c
Several months back Scott mentioned in a interview when Covenant was premiering in China that the next film would deal with the engineers coming back to Paradise and finding it destroyed.
From there, you can pretty much guess what's going to happen. They find Walter, fix him. Debrief him with what occurred to their world, and were David is heading. They go to Origae-6 and find a world created by him.
I guess that's what were getting.
Quote from: 0321recon on Dec 04, 2017, 09:35:09 PM
Quote from: trilobite on Dec 04, 2017, 08:49:37 PM
i'm totally for exploring the engineers more and their race and culture, i'm not in the group of people who believe david wiped out the entirely of the species in a:c
Several months back Scott mentioned in a interview when Covenant was premiering in China that the next film would deal with the engineers coming back to Paradise and finding it destroyed.
From there, you can pretty much guess what's going to happen. They find Walter, fix him. Debrief him with what occurred to their world, and were David is heading.
that does seem like the logical approach to retain an engineer presence in the sequel,
i feel like there's a better idea somewhere though
Engineers + AI sounds far more interesting than Marines + Pulse Rifles.
But for some reason, most fans seem to want the latter. ???
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 04, 2017, 09:50:57 PM
Engineers + AI sounds far more interesting than Marines + Pulse Rifles.
But for some reason, most fans seem to want the latter. ???
That's what I wanted from Prometheus 2 though we somewhat got the latter on Covenant with the mixture of explorers and proto-Marines. Hope that's what Scott finally gives us with this third film.
We've already seen Marines and pulse rifles with Aliens. Let's move on from that.
Quote from: BigDaddyJohn on Dec 04, 2017, 09:33:20 PM
Quote from: genocyber on Dec 04, 2017, 07:55:58 PM
Hey, asshole. The movie is about the ALIEN. Not your boy toy David.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I guess someone had enough Ridley-ism ;D
Every forum has an internet tough guy.
"We need to drift away from the Alien stuff". What a cynical comment to make.
It seems Ridley himself still doesn´t get why ALIEN became the movie it is. Audiences were mesmerized by the mystique of the creature, not by how Ash turned out to be an android and acting the way he did. The synth´s are interesting as a feature within the Mythos but yet a mere puppet of the company to do their bidding.
Imagine David had just "discovered" the Alien creature rather than designed it. Would have been better since it wouldn´t have taken away the Mythos behind it. Same sort of declimax he did with the formerly "spacejockey"
"Oh ... so the mysterious Alien race are just.... big people with helmets... well that´s dissapointing"
"Oh ... so the mysterious Alien race are just.... random animals mixed in with some spacegooo.... well that´s dissapointing"
Can we do this AI stuff in Blade Runner not Alien
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 04, 2017, 10:11:13 PM
Can we do this AI stuff in Blade Runner not Alien
Blade Runner 2049 totally flopped. I think Ridley Scott wanted to do future Blade Runner sequels but those are totally dead.
FOX still has 100% faith in Scott and in his films.
Quote from: joylit on Dec 04, 2017, 09:56:44 PM
"We need to drift away from the Alien stuff". What a cynical comment to make.
I agree. Unfortunately Ridley Scott seems to get more cynical recently, maybe he is jaded, who knows...
So I'm guessing the sequel won't have "Alien" in it's title.
Oh well, still looking forward to it.
No aliens!
Aliens!
No Aliens!
ARAGASHGSIGHASGKASHGKASGH
I just picture Ridley running back and forth in a room, desperately trying to catch a butterfly.
Chill out, man. Alien is: man vs company, man vs robot, man vs alien. u gotta have ALL. THREE.
playing this more or less game is not gonna matter if the human characters + story are anything other than strong. the rest are to be used as tools.
Quote from: joylit on Dec 04, 2017, 09:56:44 PM
"We need to drift away from the Alien stuff". What a cynical comment to make.
Why is it cynical? He wanted to move away from Alien post-Prometheus but Fox wanted the Alien brought back in. It didn't really come off as well as everyone hoped so why shouldn't he pursue subject matter he's more passionate about?
I still think Fox is gonna sell it's movie franchises to Disney before anything is green lit. Hopefully a good company ends up with the franchise, because i also think Disney will sell it off too.
Also the beast isn't cooked....it just wasn't utilized properly in Covenant. Don't get me wrong I'm aware Ridley is the king of suspense, but Covenant felt like he wanted to do something else, and just shoehorned the Alien in there.
He should make it about AI, and have the Alien in the background as a path towards bio-mechanoid lifeforms. Do a true Giger-esque movie.
Wants to expand the universe by concentrating on one small aspect of it..... Sounds plausible.
Not worried, Ridley say's more rubbish these day's than Donald Trump. Up next will be how we can go back to the Giger Alien.
Here's an idea: Start a new franchise. Don't take a franchise that was always about an alien monster, and then make it about AI.
I really hate where he is taking this. Alien/Aliens started out with such a mysterious background. I don't think anyone who first watched those movies ever thought to themselves "I bet those Alien varmints was created by a rogue robot who himself was created by some stupid humans.". No, at best we're led to believe that some sort of terrible collision occurred between the creatures coined as the Xenomorphs into the creatures represented by the Space Jockeys. That the Xenomorphs were actually created by what was later termed as the Engineers was a plausible explanation, but it made Alien's world a bit smaller than it started out (to an acceptable degree). That the Xenomorphs are now actually created by a human-created android who stumbles across the Engineers' technology makes it 100 times smaller still. But wait it gets worse - that it's been reduced to a movie about artificial intelligence gone bad makes the world so small and uninteresting that it's just not worth caring about because now it's just a near-political piece about the dangers of today's coming artificial intelligence technologies! Ridley, if you're so upset about that then you can start a blog or write a tweet to get your opinion out - leave Alien alone! BLAH!
Yeah! Blah!
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 04, 2017, 10:11:13 PM
Can we do this AI stuff in Blade Runner not Alien
Nah, it turns out, in Blade Runner the Replicants are actually aliens. PLOT TWIST!!!11111!!!!
Looking forward to what Scott is offering.
This series needed a kick in the pants to shake off the dust and over used tropes.
So far, Scott has done just that.
Keep on kicking, Sir Scott. Love your work.
-Windebieste.
Didn't we hear the same damn thing before Paradise became Covenant?!?? Maybe this next film will actually be a dark, disturbing and Giger influenced movie...
I think this goes along with the podcast saying Ridley has no passion left for the series. He should just make films based in the Alien universe that don't have anything to do with the Alien, if he really wants to explore AI more, and keep it within the same universe. That way it's still "his" universe and it would even expand what we know of the universe, and the fans would just have to accept that the Alien still exists somewhere in the dark corner of space. That way he doesn't f*** it up the creature anymore than he already has.
I'm kinda saying it based on how the next star wars trilogy is going to expand on stories within the universe but have nothing to do with the jedi, but it's still during that same time. So, do the same thing but instead of it being Jedi it would be the Alien.
They made Prometheus and people say 'Where are the Aliens?'
They made Covenant and people say 'Where are the Engineers?'
Fans say for years they want a story with no Aliens and just about the Company. 'Alien Covenant Origins' comes out and fans say they don't want that either.
They also say things like Fans should have more influence in making the movies and when that happens you get things like AvP-R and A:CM.
So glad we're heading into unfamiliar territory. Maybe it's just too 'alien' for some people.
-Windebieste.
You know what Ridley, go for it. I can't f*cking wait. :)
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 01:12:18 AM
They made Prometheus and people say 'Where are the Aliens?'
They made Covenant and people say 'Why are the Engineers?'
Boy, I hope Scott is able to course correct in a way that at least Covenant and Prometheus meld well together.
Quote from: windebieste on Dec 05, 2017, 01:22:58 AM
They also say things like Fans should have more influence in making the movies and when that happens you get things like AvP-R and A:CM.
It does make sense to remake Aliens (from a purely financial standpoint) because Aliens is the most popular film, even though Aliens is itself a remake of Alien just with more action.
I see your point SM, but I think that's only because Prometheus could have literally been made into anything to start up the prequels, and I thought for sure, like many others, there would be Alien(s) involved since it was a prequel to the original. A:C really didn't need to be titled an Alien film, for me personally, thought it would have been better if they just focused on the neomorph, and expanded on the new world they opened us up to in Prometheus. Obviously FOX wasn't having that...
I like Prometheus a lot more now that I can see how the films coincide, but definitely still disappointed that's where Scott decided to go. By that I mean, he should have made no ties to Alien and made the film it's own sci fi thriller that's based in the same universe, since his beast is cooked...That way the Alien remains a mystery, Scott gets to continue his love for AI's, and the fans may not get to see the Alien but we do get to see the universe expand.
In reality though, Scott will be forced, no matter what, to include an Alien in some way. All about the money.
With the Deacon at the end of Prometheus and only Neomorphs in Covenant the criticism would've just been 'Give us the Alien already'.
They did - and people whinge about that instead.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 05, 2017, 02:00:49 AM
Quote from: windebieste on Dec 05, 2017, 01:22:58 AM
They also say things like Fans should have more influence in making the movies and when that happens you get things like AvP-R and A:CM.
It does make sense to remake Aliens (from a purely financial standpoint) because Aliens is the most popular film, even though Aliens is itself a remake of Alien just with more action.
Prometheus and The Martian made a lot more money than Aliens and Alien.
Maybe, Ridley Scott needs to make an original and huge Sci-Fi with some Aliens/Alien in it.
Honestly I would have rather had been left waiting until the third prequel film to see an Alien. I think the first two prequel films would have been accepted way more if they had not forced the Alien into it, and instead let it just progress. I think that's what Scott wanted but FOX forced him to do otherwise.
Imagine if they had followed that route and then we finally see the Alien in this next installment, people would be ecstatic, I feel pumped up just thinking about that...but of course none of that happened...
Quote from: PierreVW on Dec 05, 2017, 02:44:40 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 05, 2017, 02:00:49 AM
Quote from: windebieste on Dec 05, 2017, 01:22:58 AM
They also say things like Fans should have more influence in making the movies and when that happens you get things like AvP-R and A:CM.
It does make sense to remake Aliens (from a purely financial standpoint) because Aliens is the most popular film, even though Aliens is itself a remake of Alien just with more action.
Prometheus and The Martian made a lot more money than Aliens and Alien.
Maybe, Ridley Scott needs to make an original and huge Sci-Fi with some Aliens/Alien in it.
Adjusted for inflation and ratio of budget to box office, I think you'll find Alien and Aliens ahead of Prometheus.
QuoteHonestly I would have rather had been left waiting until the third prequel film to see an Alien. I think the first two prequel films would have been accepted way more if they had not forced the Alien into it, and instead let it just progress. I think that's what Scott wanted but FOX forced him to do otherwise.
Imagine if they had followed that route and then we finally see the Alien in this next installment, people would be ecstatic, I feel pumped up just thinking about that...but of course none of that happened...
Or we may have never got to a third film.
Quote from: DerelictShip on Dec 05, 2017, 03:10:26 AM
Honestly I would have rather had been left waiting until the third prequel film to see an Alien. I think the first two prequel films would have been accepted way more if they had not forced the Alien into it, and instead let it just progress. I think that's what Scott wanted but FOX forced him to do otherwise.
Imagine if they had followed that route and then we finally see the Alien in this next installment, people would be ecstatic, I feel pumped up just thinking about that...but of course none of that happened...
That's how imagined the prequel trilogy ending with David and Shaw discovering the engineers created the Xenos as dark angels to clean up unruly worlds. An engineer having pity on them helps them escape from a swarm of xenos unleashed by the ruling engineers when a queen facehugger attacks the engineer, and impregnates him. They escape on the juggernaut though in the process, he chestbursts and crashes on LV-426 fatally wounding Shaw and destroying David akin to Bishop in Alien3. The last thing Shaw does is sends the warning that is found in Alien. Though, like you said, that's not what we got. :'(
I think either way it would have come to a third film, probably would have just taken longer...and then again Scott gets what Scott wants...
Quote from: DerelictShip on Dec 05, 2017, 03:50:03 AM
I think either way it would have come to a third film, probably would have just taken longer...and then again Scott gets what Scott wants...
That would have been better for everyone.
This could still work out well when done right.
Start with Engineers so we get a little more info about them.
When they discover Walter, we could get more info about the planet they're on, and their culture.
A discussion between Walter and the Engineers about humans and AI could give us insights about their thoughts on creation.
Then at Origae 6 we get to David and the AI gone mad aspect.
Ending with a sweet battle involving plenty of xenos.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 05, 2017, 02:00:49 AM
Quote from: windebieste on Dec 05, 2017, 01:22:58 AM
They also say things like Fans should have more influence in making the movies and when that happens you get things like AvP-R and A:CM.
It does make sense to remake Aliens (from a purely financial standpoint) because Aliens is the most popular film, even though Aliens is itself a remake of Alien just with more action.
It doesn't even have to be a remake - but what else is Scott going to do with a colony ship full of 2000 Aliens..? I mean, aside from canon fodder. This is where it's heading. Sure, he's going on about AI being most important element of the new movie - he made similar claims about AI out of control in 'ALIEN: Covenant' at one point.
I think we'll see a solid return to Aliens vs Colonial Military/Security in the next movie. Scott keeps saying this is Epic. It's clearly not over by a long shot.
2 more movies? Easy. Especially if the next ALIEN movie embraces firepower vs an infestation controlled by an AI. If it works out, a 2nd movie is all but guaranteed.
Scott's idea of Epic expands well beyond what some fans comprehend. There are some really short sighted people in this community that border on bigotry in the form of 'Cameronism' and can't see beyond 1986. They need to move on.
Think of it this way. 'PROMETHEUS' was a prelude. It has all the qualities of one. It lays the basic grounding for upcoming chapters. It introduces themes and elements that will have greater significance in later installments. 'ALIEN: Covenant' is Chapter One. It has all the strengths and weaknesses of a first chapter. It brings the major character into play, sets up the major narrative situation and has an obvious lead into...
You guessed it... Chapter Two. Of course we know nothing about the next movie but who ever heard of any work that just finished at the end of Chapter Two..? Chapters Three and Four are definitely on the cards. Maybe 'ALIEN' will ultimately serve as an epilogue? Who knows..?
No one here does. That's the only certainty at the moment - but these movies are definitely part of a much greater Whole - and we've only seen the first 2 parts. It's not possible to judge what the entire finished Epic will be like. No one here is in a position to make claims but simply saying 'We need to return to old school 'ALIEN' and 'ALIENS' is only part of the answer.
And honestly, that's not how modern popular cinema works any more.
-Windebieste.
There IS going to be ALIENS in the sequel you crybabies, goddamn. Did you not see the facehuggers David had at the end of Covenant?
Scott is most likely talking about how David is going to try to wipe out Earth and any remaining Engineers with the ALIEN, which explains the 'dangerous AI' stuff in that article. That said, I hope David makes other creepy creatures in addition to the ALIEN.
Did you not see Shaw at the end of Prometheus doing her speech about searching and stuff?
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 04:54:39 AM
Did you not see Shaw at the end of Prometheus doing her speech about searching and stuff?
Did you not see the Alien-like creature at the end of Prometheus which came from a giant facehugger?
Quote from: windebieste on Dec 05, 2017, 12:51:36 AM
Looking forward to what Scott is offering.
This series needed a kick in the pants to shake off the dust and over used tropes.
So far, Scott has done just that.
Keep on kicking, Sir Scott. Love your work.
-Windebieste.
Yeah, this is pretty much where I'm at.
Most of the mass audience has a tough time knowing what they like until they can emotionally react in a theater.
I'm not a filmmaker. I've studied movies but in no way could I write/make Ridley's science fiction.
I want another Alien movie. I've had great experiences seeing all the Alien films when released.
If Ridley can do another one, I'll be in line to watch it.
;)
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 01:12:18 AM
They made Prometheus and people say 'Where are the Aliens?'
They made Covenant and people say 'Where are the Engineers?'
Fans say for years they want a story with no Aliens and just about the Company. 'Alien Covenant Origins' comes out and fans say they don't want that either.
Not having the Alien in it wasn't really the criticism, it was all the vague unresolved plot points. Where's the Engineers was a natural reaction after spending and entire first movie explaining the Engineers then wiping them out.
Now making a third movie without an Alien in it after just spending the second movie telling us what the Alien was....
I dunno how you wouldn't expect people to be slightly offside.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 05, 2017, 05:30:34 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 01:12:18 AM
They made Prometheus and people say 'Where are the Aliens?'
They made Covenant and people say 'Where are the Engineers?'
Fans say for years they want a story with no Aliens and just about the Company. 'Alien Covenant Origins' comes out and fans say they don't want that either.
Not having the Alien in it wasn't really the criticism, it was all the vague unresolved plot points.
Oh, but enough about the Alien movie that hit theaters in 1979.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 05, 2017, 04:56:10 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 04:54:39 AM
Did you not see Shaw at the end of Prometheus doing her speech about searching and stuff?
Did you not see the Alien-like creature at the end of Prometheus which came from a giant facehugger?
Precisely.
QuoteNot having the Alien in it wasn't really the criticism
It was one of the criticisms and they sought to address it.
The next film needs to clean up and finish the David plot.
It most likely wont do very well at the box office.
There's no central shared hero character to these prequels
and killing Daniels off will most likely just lead
to people giving even less of a f**k about the next film.
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 05:44:57 AM
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 05, 2017, 04:56:10 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 04:54:39 AM
Did you not see Shaw at the end of Prometheus doing her speech about searching and stuff?
Did you not see the Alien-like creature at the end of Prometheus which came from a giant facehugger?
Precisely.
QuoteNot having the Alien in it wasn't really the criticism
It was one of the criticisms and they sought to address it.
So to fix that they are going back to what the they got criticised for in the first place.
All a bit strange.
It was said that Ridley was gonna bring in the "biomechanic" aesthetic more in the next films....
And David will most likely be the key to all that.
David is already kind of a biomechanoid himself,
what with his artificial body that "bleeds", and his need to "eat" to stay alive...
Maybe the Xeno will turn out to be
much more of a "machine" than everyone initially assumed.
AVPG needs to interview John Logan...
:P
Does it make sense that there would be more Davids or other Androids in cryo on the Covenant?
Quote from: Highland on Dec 05, 2017, 05:30:34 AMNow making a third movie without an Alien in it after just spending the second movie telling us what the Alien was....
Quote from: Highland on Dec 05, 2017, 06:15:35 AMSo to fix that they are going back to what the they got criticised for in the first place.
All a bit strange.
Not sure where you get the idea there won't be any xenomorphs in the next movie.
I'm sure we'll still get to see them. They just won't be the main focus of the movie.
That's the movie business.
On the other hand, it's not that strange.
With Prometheus they chose to put leave it out. They thought it wasn't a good idea so they introduced it earlier.
Now they realised they made a mistake they go back to something closer to the original vision.
I can see see some cool ideas with David tinkering with the goo, just not sure about a whole movie of that. Unless he gives us some different creatures, I'd be game for that too.
He's just not doing himself any favours with the running commentary. Most people in business would say generic things like " we are really excited' , it's going to be awesome", Scott is telling you he's going to cook you a meal and don't be disappointed if it tastes shit because there's a good chance it will.
Quote from: CainsSon on Dec 05, 2017, 07:03:59 AM
Does it make sense that there would be more Davids or other Androids in cryo on the Covenant?
If there were, David would steal their bodies. Maybe even upload himself onto a new, self-regenerating body a la Walter.
It will probably be the biggest bomb Ridley Scott's ever delivered. I don't see Fox paying for big press events and premieres for something like that. Produced under the Fox Searchlight label maybe? A prestige movie with no prestige... just filled with rotten, rehashed ideas that were done in the 70's. We will have to wait for after 2020 for a real Alien movie to be made. Unless Disney comes to the rescue en ends this craziness.
And they won't even bother to invite the youtube bloggers and forums people because this time the hate will be instantaneous.
Didn't he say a this stuff before anyway? I remember him bangin on about those Facebook robots before.
Colonists turned into eggs...engineers steal eggs...David does some crazy AI shit...David gets switched off...engineer ship crashes onto LV426...engineer dies after setting up beacon...enter Nostromo stage left. Scott claims film will scare the crap out of everyone. It doesn't. McG announced as director of next instalment.
Without having read the rest of this thread yet, I just want to say that I liked Fassbender and I liked David, even the Dr Moreau stuff going on with him in Covenant. If Scott wants to make a film about David, creating weird lifeforms as a weapon against mankind I say go ahead! Go and make Prometheus 3 or David: The Film, just don't shoehorn in the Aliens.
I'm not really interested in Scott's vision of the Alien. He clearly isn't interested in them any longer and you can feel that dispassion in Covenant. The film just falls apart for me when the Aliens are introduced. I'd rather a film focused on David with the Neomorphs or some other Alien-like creature, just not
the Alien.
Quote from: trilobite on Dec 04, 2017, 08:49:37 PM
i'm totally for exploring the engineers more and their race and culture, i'm not in the group of people who believe david wiped out the entirely of the species in a:c
I hope they didn't. While I may really enjoy David, I do think Scott has wasted the potential of the Engineers/Jockeys with Prometheus and Covenant. I hope there are some out there somewhere, for someone with more interest to play with. I think Scott might be more at home making Blade Runner films.
Quote from: Aliens Exist on Dec 04, 2017, 10:49:26 PM
So I'm guessing the sequel won't have "Alien" in it's title.
Oh well, still looking forward to it.
If it's not an Alien film, then I'm not so bothered by this. If he wants to go and make Alien-less films within that universe, that's fine by me. That was not an issue I had with Prometheus.
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 02:28:21 AM
With the Deacon at the end of Prometheus and only Neomorphs in Covenant the criticism would've just been 'Give us the Alien already'.
They did - and people whinge about that instead.
Audience reaction isn't one big binary thing though. There were a lot of people who liked what Prometheus was trying to do, but simply didn't like the
execution. There were some who absolutely hated Prometheus from foundation to completion, and there are those that love it. This isn't one unanimous chorus of opinions here. They're all in conflict. Scott and Fox should not be concerning themselves with altering their plans to fit the audience. They should have a solid and cohesive game plan and stick to it. The problem is Scott seems to be all over the goddamn map from interview to interview, and it also ends up showing in the bedrock of these films. The focus keeps moving around.
The Alien does have the capacity to be imposing, intense, and threatening. The problem is these movies won't bother to take some time. Both directions have merit, but neither one has been given what it needs. For example I think the David stuff in Covenant was fascinating, but it feels really anemic. Like another twenty minutes of movie was supposed to be in there to really flesh out the relationship between David, the Covenant crew, Walter, and everything else.
And there it goes another percentage point in the Alien 5 Vs. Covenant 2 poll. Now officially more fans want to see Blomkamp's film. You just made it, Ridley!
Quote from: OpenMaw on Dec 05, 2017, 09:26:14 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 02:28:21 AM
With the Deacon at the end of Prometheus and only Neomorphs in Covenant the criticism would've just been 'Give us the Alien already'.
They did - and people whinge about that instead.
Audience reaction isn't one big binary thing though. There were a lot of people who liked what Prometheus was trying to do, but simply didn't like the execution. There were some who absolutely hated Prometheus from foundation to completion, and there are those that love it. This isn't one unanimous chorus of opinions here. They're all in conflict. Scott and Fox should not be concerning themselves with altering their plans to fit the audience. They should have a solid and cohesive game plan and stick to it. The problem is Scott seems to be all over the goddamn map from interview to interview, and it also ends up showing in the bedrock of these films. The focus keeps moving around.
The Alien does have the capacity to be imposing, intense, and threatening. The problem is these movies won't bother to take some time. Both directions have merit, but neither one has been given what it needs. For example I think the David stuff in Covenant was fascinating, but it feels really anemic. Like another twenty minutes of movie was supposed to be in there to really flesh out the relationship between David, the Covenant crew, Walter, and everything else.
Yeah for someone who's not concerned about criticism, he seems to bring it up a lot. Maybe it's a dig at the studio, who knows.
Quote from: bb-15 on Dec 05, 2017, 05:29:57 AM
Quote from: windebieste on Dec 05, 2017, 12:51:36 AM
Looking forward to what Scott is offering.
This series needed a kick in the pants to shake off the dust and over used tropes.
So far, Scott has done just that.
Yeah, this is pretty much where I'm at.
I'm on the same page with both of you. I have no desire to see the story's direction "molded" to how I think it should unfold. I let the story teller tell his story. I don't need to butt in my imagination into another person's story.
If RS can't work with xeno, then let him get out from the franchise!
We have Blade Runner for AI problems.
Quote from: CainsSon on Dec 05, 2017, 07:03:59 AM
Does it make sense that there would be more Davids or other Androids in cryo on the Covenant?
Waste of resources. If you have more you could just switch them off.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Dec 05, 2017, 09:26:14 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 02:28:21 AM
With the Deacon at the end of Prometheus and only Neomorphs in Covenant the criticism would've just been 'Give us the Alien already'.
They did - and people whinge about that instead.
Audience reaction isn't one big binary thing though. There were a lot of people who liked what Prometheus was trying to do, but simply didn't like the execution. There were some who absolutely hated Prometheus from foundation to completion, and there are those that love it. This isn't one unanimous chorus of opinions here. They're all in conflict. Scott and Fox should not be concerning themselves with altering their plans to fit the audience. They should have a solid and cohesive game plan and stick to it. The problem is Scott seems to be all over the goddamn map from interview to interview, and it also ends up showing in the bedrock of these films. The focus keeps moving around.
The Alien does have the capacity to be imposing, intense, and threatening. The problem is these movies won't bother to take some time. Both directions have merit, but neither one has been given what it needs. For example I think the David stuff in Covenant was fascinating, but it feels really anemic. Like another twenty minutes of movie was supposed to be in there to really flesh out the relationship between David, the Covenant crew, Walter, and everything else.
Of course audience reaction isn't binary, but that's kind of my point. There are myriad opinions and Fox has to aim their product at a demographic that they hope will tick most boxes. There's no point in sticking to a game plan when the audience aren't really buying it. I do agree there should've been a long term plan. Alien has never done this, but in these days of movie universes, when Spaihts pitched Engineers, they should've thrashed out a trilogy that would lead to Alien.
We may very well end up with something like that, but as you said, they'll have gone all over the map to get there.
Quote from: 0321recon on Dec 05, 2017, 03:26:28 AM
Quote from: DerelictShip on Dec 05, 2017, 03:10:26 AM
Honestly I would have rather had been left waiting until the third prequel film to see an Alien. I think the first two prequel films would have been accepted way more if they had not forced the Alien into it, and instead let it just progress. I think that's what Scott wanted but FOX forced him to do otherwise.
Imagine if they had followed that route and then we finally see the Alien in this next installment, people would be ecstatic, I feel pumped up just thinking about that...but of course none of that happened...
That's how imagined the prequel trilogy ending with David and Shaw discovering the engineers created the Xenos as dark angels to clean up unruly worlds. An engineer having pity on them helps them escape from a swarm of xenos unleashed by the ruling engineers when a queen facehugger attacks the engineer, and impregnates him. They escape on the juggernaut though in the process, he chestbursts and crashes on LV-426 fatally wounding Shaw and destroying David akin to Bishop in Alien3. The last thing Shaw does is sends the warning that is found in Alien. Though, like you said, that's not what we got. :'(
And thank goodness for that.
Quote from: windebieste on Dec 05, 2017, 04:10:52 AM
2 more movies? Easy. Especially if the next ALIEN movie embraces firepower vs an infestation controlled by an AI. If it works out, a 2nd movie is all but guaranteed.
Scott's idea of Epic expands well beyond what some fans comprehend. There are some really short sighted people in this community that border on bigotry in the form of 'Cameronism' and can't see beyond 1986. They need to move on.
Think of it this way. 'PROMETHEUS' was a prelude. It has all the qualities of one. It lays the basic grounding for upcoming chapters. It introduces themes and elements that will have greater significance in later installments. 'ALIEN: Covenant' is Chapter One. It has all the strengths and weaknesses of a first chapter. It brings the major character into play, sets up the major narrative situation and has an obvious lead into...
You guessed it... Chapter Two. Of course we know nothing about the next movie but who ever heard of any work that just finished at the end of Chapter Two..? Chapters Three and Four are definitely on the cards. Maybe 'ALIEN' will ultimately serve as an epilogue? Who knows..?
No one here does. That's the only certainty at the moment - but these movies are definitely part of a much greater Whole - and we've only seen the first 2 parts. It's not possible to judge what the entire finished Epic will be like. No one here is in a position to make claims but simply saying 'We need to return to old school 'ALIEN' and 'ALIENS' is only part of the answer.
And honestly, that's not how modern popular cinema works any more.
-Windebieste.
Not sure about that. After the underperformance of Covenant I wouldn't be surprised if this next one was the last one.
Quote from: skhellter on Dec 05, 2017, 05:57:26 AM
The next film needs to clean up and finish the David plot.
It most likely wont do very well at the box office.
There's no central shared hero character to these prequels
and killing Daniels off will most likely just lead
to people giving even less of a f**k about the next film.
That just depends on how you market it. If you tell people to root for the mad android in the movie, they probably will, but if you set the movie (but more importantly the marketing for the movie) up to be a more generic alien movie with a female lead etc. then people will have their expectations betrayed.
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 01:12:18 AM
They made Prometheus and people say 'Where are the Aliens?'
They made Covenant and people say 'Where are the Engineers?'
1. I and a lot of other fans completely didn't mind lack of Aliens in
Prometheus. That wasn't the issue. Its story was weak and unconvincing.
2.
Covenant is sequel to
Prometheus and people who watched
Prometheus knew that Shaw and David were heading towards Engineers' planet. Question
where are the Engineers? is on the spot. Don't see anything wrong with it because originally it was planned to be story of Shaw and David. Like she says at the end:
My name is Elizabeth Shaw, last survivor of the Prometheus, and I'm still searching. That's the clear message to the viewer that next movie is gonna be about her and perhaps Engineers. It's kinda logical.
Prometheus and
Covenant are decent movies thanks to their execution but not story-wise.
PS. Another reason how weak
Covenant's story is is the fact that survivors don't ask question like: what is this place? who were those being? Sure, they ask question like:
is it safe here? but that's all. Seriously? Walter as only synthetic who is responsible for the crew doesn't even ask that question when he meets with David for the first time (flute scene). Even Oram as captain doesn't ask David about it. None. Null. Zero. It's not nitpicking. It should have been addressed in very convincing way. But it wasn't. The drama factor is completely gone. It's just one example of bad writing in those two movies.
Quote from: Ingwar on Dec 05, 2017, 12:09:15 PM
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 01:12:18 AM
They made Prometheus and people say 'Where are the Aliens?'
They made Covenant and people say 'Where are the Engineers?'
1. I and a lot of other fans completely didn't mind lack of Aliens in Prometheus. That wasn't the issue. Its story was weak and unconvincing.
2. Covenant is sequel to Prometheus and people who watched Prometheus knew that Shaw and David were heading towards Engineers' planet. Question where are the Engineers? is on the spot. Don't see anything wrong with it because originally it was planned to be story of Shaw and David. Like she says at the end: My name is Elizabeth Shaw, last survivor of the Prometheus, and I'm still searching. That's the clear message to the viewer that next movie is gonna be about her and perhaps Engineers. It's kinda logical.
Prometheus and Covenant are decent movies thanks to their execution but not story-wise.
PS. Another reason how weak Covenant's story is is the fact that survivors don't ask question like: what is this place? who were those being? Sure, they ask question like: is it safe here? but that's all. Seriously? Walter as only synthetic who is responsible for the crew doesn't even ask that question when he meets with David for the first time (flute scene). Even Oram as captain doesn't ask David about it. None. Null. Zero. It's not nitpicking. It should have been addressed in very convincing way. But it wasn't. The drama factor is completely gone. It's just one example of bad writing in those two movies.
I agree with you, but funnily enough they sort of act this way in Alien. I think Dallas even say's "Alien life form, been dead a long time"... almost like it's not a surprise its an Alien.
One other thing I noticed whilst trying to identify what Scott did well with Alien was the silence. There are a lot of scenes with just sound effects or very faint instruments and it really draws you into the scene.
Such a classic. I guess we should be grateful he made such a masterpiece.
Everyone knows Ridley says a lot of things, many of which turn out to be inaccurate. He speaks honestly (which is refreshing) but very much in the moment. This is why he ends up contradicting himself so often.
And of course the Alien would be in it, hes referring to the focus of the story being AI which is no difference from the previous two movies.
The important part for me is Ridley saying they are making another. Thank god, I cant wait to see it. Just don't take too long about.
f**kin Ridley Scott. Another "muh David" pseudo-intellectual shitfest.
I'll pass.
Would rather a "psuedointellectual shitfest" that aimed for the stars than a "Muh Newt!" "Muh Hicks!" "Muh pulse rifles!" 'Member? CRINGE! A deranged, Wagner loving A.I. pouring his/its twisted psychosexuality into creatures via ancient alien technology has so much potential and I think Scott should go for it. We've already seen the perfect Alien film and its excellent sequel already, time for something else.
Can we give up with this "muh" whatever crap? It's getting particularly tiresome.
I said before but the point still stands:
I'll be glad when The David arch is over and fox has to put out a statement that none the prequels are canon but Ridleys opinions of things. Because if you want the franchise to have any long term viability, that's what's going to have to happen. The parallels between this and the stars Wars prequels is uncanny. Fox seeks out original director of a popular franchise to make prequels. First film comes out and is at best considered divisive among fans. Second film comes out and is probably the lowpoint in the series.
We've yet to see what episode 3 will be but it can't be worse than 2. And like Lucas, rather than take responsibility for the poor direction of his prequels, scott doubles down and blames the alien by saying the beast is cooked. Wouldn't shock me if scott comes out and attacks fans here shortly for not understanding his vision.
But alien isn't Star Wars. Star Wars despite disappointing prequels was still immensely popular. Alien as a franchise has lost a lot of mindshare and I fear if scott is not reigned in will do more permanent damage to a franchise that fox may not be willing to invest in to repair. The jedis using midichlorians was dumb and upset fans but didn't retcon all Star Wars lore.
David creating the xenomorph is a dangerous retcon for this series because the alien is the main draw. It's not what fans wanted and it erases 20 years of fan theory's and expanded universe ideas because it was all predicated on the idea that the engineers/space jockey made the alien, not a damn robot. It's origin should be somewhat ambiguous because it's an alien! It's supposed to be a mystery. Star Wars could shake off small retcons like that because it has so much going on, alien not so much.
Fox can't be thrilled that guy they gave the key to the kingdom to is out there saying the beast is cooked. My guess is they have blomkamp on speed dial and praying Ridley steps in it again. Disney save us.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 05, 2017, 08:27:03 AM
I hope they didn't. While I may really enjoy David, I do think Scott has wasted the potential of the Engineers/Jockeys with Prometheus and Covenant. I hope there are some out there somewhere, for someone with more interest to play with. I think Scott might be more at home making Blade Runner films.
i wonder how ridley scott handled all the good press about br2049 and that villeneuve had done a better job
If the fan theories and expanded universe ideas were all proved wrong I see that as a good thing.
He hasn't retconed anything because those things were only theories in the first place. The more Ridley subverts expectations the better because most of those theories were all lame anyway.
Can we also stop generalizing people if they don't like where this prequel series is going? If someone speaks against it they're automatically said to be a drone who wants pulse rifles and aliens
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 05, 2017, 04:05:49 PM
If the fan theories and expanded universe ideas were all proved wrong I see that as a good thing.
He hasn't retconed anything because those things were only theories in the first place. The more Ridley subverts expectations the better because most of those theories were all lame anyway.
Try to tell that to the fans. That's why were having outcry with Covenant.
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 05, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
Can we also stop generalizing people if they don't like where this prequel series is going? If someone speaks against it they're automatically said to be a drone who wants pulse rifles and aliens
You have a point, though they're some who might be in the vocal minority that criticize the series that automatically bring up that up. Read through various comment sections on movie webpages or Facebook itself and those comments pop out.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 05, 2017, 08:27:03 AM
"While it's unclear if these particular comments came during principal photography on All The Money In the World or during the recent reshoots..."
I think it's from the same interview that EW conducted with Scott about two weeks ago during the re-shoots. So reasonably fresh.
http://ew.com/movies/2017/11/29/ridley-scott-kevin-spacey-all-the-money-in-the-world-exclusive/ (http://ew.com/movies/2017/11/29/ridley-scott-kevin-spacey-all-the-money-in-the-world-exclusive/)
Does Fox know Ridley is planning to do another Alien movie yet? :laugh:
Quote from: trilobite on Dec 05, 2017, 04:00:09 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 05, 2017, 08:27:03 AM
I hope they didn't. While I may really enjoy David, I do think Scott has wasted the potential of the Engineers/Jockeys with Prometheus and Covenant. I hope there are some out there somewhere, for someone with more interest to play with. I think Scott might be more at home making Blade Runner films.
i wonder how ridley scott handled all the good press about br2049 and that villeneuve had done a better job
I doubt Ridley Scott read the press about br2049 and denis. And remember Ridley is so busy: he was working in 3 films at the same time.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Dec 05, 2017, 04:37:15 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 05, 2017, 08:27:03 AM
"While it's unclear if these particular comments came during principal photography on All The Money In the World or during the recent reshoots..."
I think it's from the same interview that EW conducted with Scott about two weeks ago during the re-shoots. So reasonably fresh.
http://ew.com/movies/2017/11/29/ridley-scott-kevin-spacey-all-the-money-in-the-world-exclusive/ (http://ew.com/movies/2017/11/29/ridley-scott-kevin-spacey-all-the-money-in-the-world-exclusive/)
Does Fox know Ridley is planning to do another Alien movie yet? :laugh:
FOX knows. Remember Stacey Snider from FOX talked about a possible and new ALIEN film by Ridley Scott.
Even if Disney bought FOX with 60 Billion USD nobody is losing their jobs. I just read the article: Disney ISN'T firing anyone and is one of the conditions for the merger.
Kind of curious about this.
It's clear Ridley doesn't have the same passion for the creature itself anymore, so I would personally prefer the next Alien film featuring the xenomorph be directed by someone with more love for the monster.
That said, Ridley earned the right to finish his story on his terms, so I welcome the opportunity to see what sounds like a truer sequel to Prometheus, which I think is what Ridley originally wanted Covenant to be.
Quote from: Denton Smalls on Dec 05, 2017, 05:10:56 PM
Kind of curious about this.
It's clear Ridley doesn't have the same passion for the creature itself anymore, so I would personally prefer the next Alien film featuring the xenomorph be directed by someone with more love for the monster.
That said, Ridley earned the right to finish his story on his terms, so I welcome the opportunity to see what sounds like a truer sequel to Prometheus, which I think is what Ridley originally wanted Covenant to be.
Agreed.
My ideal would be of Fox disregarding Covenant, and Scott actually doing the true sequel to Prometheus and someone else takes over the Alien franchise. Paramount is doing it with the upcoming Terminator movie, disregarding Genysis and whatever came before it sans T1 and T2, Fox should do the same.
It would be economically cheaper to shoot since it would be only Fassbender and Rapace and unknown actors for the engineers. Though, I don't see that happening.
Quote from: 0321recon on Dec 05, 2017, 04:26:53 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 05, 2017, 04:05:49 PM
If the fan theories and expanded universe ideas were all proved wrong I see that as a good thing.
He hasn't retconed anything because those things were only theories in the first place. The more Ridley subverts expectations the better because most of those theories were all lame anyway.
Try to tell that to the fans. That's why were having outcry with Covenant.
Try to tell that to the fans. That's why were having outcry with Covenant
[/quote]
Well, im a fan myself and quite happy with what Ridleys doing. I want to see him finish the story he started and hopefully end it in a way that pleases me.
It can then be handed over to someone else to tell a different story, maybe one that will please all the people that didn't like this one.
I don't see what all the fuss is about really.
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 10:35:49 AM
Of course audience reaction isn't binary, but that's kind of my point. There are myriad opinions and Fox has to aim their product at a demographic that they hope will tick most boxes. There's no point in sticking to a game plan when the audience aren't really buying it. I do agree there should've been a long term plan. Alien has never done this, but in these days of movie universes, when Spaihts pitched Engineers, they should've thrashed out a trilogy that would lead to Alien.
We may very well end up with something like that, but as you said, they'll have gone all over the map to get there.
Indeed. I just think it's unfortunate that they seem to be that skiddish and change direction. Prometheus had a lot of issues which make it a film I can't really enjoy as it was cut theatrically, but I actually commend the boldness of saying... We're going to use that same canvas, but paint a different picture. That's coming at the series with, at the very least, some freshness. I hope that whatever the third film in this series becomes, it melds the strengths of Prometheus and Covenant, and sheds the rest. Unfortunately some of the damage is just too deep to fully correct for.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 05, 2017, 01:56:29 PM
I agree with you, but funnily enough they sort of act this way in Alien. I think Dallas even say's "Alien life form, been dead a long time"... almost like it's not a surprise its an Alien.
One other thing I noticed whilst trying to identify what Scott did well with Alien was the silence. There are a lot of scenes with just sound effects or very faint instruments and it really draws you into the scene.
Such a classic. I guess we should be grateful he made such a masterpiece.
Maybe it's the acting and the pacing, but I always read a lot more into the scenes in Alien. There's this sense of (as Scott put's it about Lambert "Catatonic terror.") I think their silence is, in part, out of fear. I mean, can you imagine stumbling into a derelict ship of that size and design and finding a giant skeleton that may have gone through some kind of a violent death? Lambert is definitely channeling restrained terror. Kane is Mr. Adventure, he's almost in the wrong genre, the poor guy. Dallas has this vibe to him that indicates he knows something is really wrong, but he doesn't really vocalize it.
The other side of it is there was nobody around with actual knowledge to bounce the questions off, so it would have ultimately been a waste of screen time.
So, with the characters in Covenant, it really needed that scene which we never really good. That long five or seven minute sequence where Fassbender's charisma was brought to bear and we had the characters asking him a lot more questions, and really getting into the detail of the society he destroyed. His motivation, etc. It just needed
more.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 05, 2017, 05:29:17 PM
Quote from: 0321recon on Dec 05, 2017, 04:26:53 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 05, 2017, 04:05:49 PM
If the fan theories and expanded universe ideas were all proved wrong I see that as a good thing.
He hasn't retconed anything because those things were only theories in the first place. The more Ridley subverts expectations the better because most of those theories were all lame anyway.
Try to tell that to the fans. That's why were having outcry with Covenant.
Well, im a fan myself and quite happy with what Ridleys doing. I want to see him finish the story he started and hopefully end it in a way that pleases me.
It can then be handed over to someone else to tell a different story, maybe one that will please all the people that didn't like this one.
I don't see what all the fuss is about really.
I'm ok with the story that we got for Covenant, liked the entire Prometheus side of the story, though I understand many that bring the point that it seems an entire film was skipped over to get to what we see in Covenant. Plus, it doesn't help in hearing that Fox was pushing Scott to add the Alien.If they had only kept the Neo and introduced the xeno in the next one, people would had been more receptive with the film.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 05, 2017, 04:05:49 PM
If the fan theories and expanded universe ideas were all proved wrong I see that as a good thing.
He hasn't retconed anything because those things were only theories in the first place. The more Ridley subverts expectations the better because most of those theories were all lame anyway.
This is 100% true. Just look at the fan theories on this site, they're not just awful, they're also really f**king boring and unimaginative.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Dec 05, 2017, 05:33:41 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 05, 2017, 01:56:29 PM
I agree with you, but funnily enough they sort of act this way in Alien. I think Dallas even say's "Alien life form, been dead a long time"... almost like it's not a surprise its an Alien.
One other thing I noticed whilst trying to identify what Scott did well with Alien was the silence. There are a lot of scenes with just sound effects or very faint instruments and it really draws you into the scene.
Such a classic. I guess we should be grateful he made such a masterpiece.
Maybe it's the acting and the pacing, but I always read a lot more into the scenes in Alien. There's this sense of (as Scott put's it about Lambert "Catatonic terror.") I think their silence is, in part, out of fear. I mean, can you imagine stumbling into a derelict ship of that size and design and finding a giant skeleton that may have gone through some kind of a violent death? Lambert is definitely channeling restrained terror. Kane is Mr. Adventure, he's almost in the wrong genre, the poor guy. Dallas has this vibe to him that indicates he knows something is really wrong, but he doesn't really vocalize it.
The other side of it is there was nobody around with actual knowledge to bounce the questions off, so it would have ultimately been a waste of screen time.
So, with the characters in Covenant, it really needed that scene which we never really good. That long five or seven minute sequence where Fassbender's charisma was brought to bear and we had the characters asking him a lot more questions, and really getting into the detail of the society he destroyed. His motivation, etc. It just needed more.
:laugh: It's unrealistic in Covenant but in Alien, the casual atmosphere is due to "fear". Take off your nostalgia goggles for f**k's sake bro, both movies have the exact same f**king problem.
No. They don't. "Bro."
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 04, 2017, 07:50:12 PM
I don't fear a reboot at this point, I welcome one
Yeah man. Because the reboot is just guaranteed to be great and they'll be Aliens in it!*
*Reboots are almost universally terrible and have outright destroyed multiple horror franchises.
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 05, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
Can we also stop generalizing people if they don't like where this prequel series is going? If someone speaks against it they're automatically said to be a drone who wants pulse rifles and aliens
Maybe it's because most of the people trashing the prequels are demanding pulse rifles and alien queens in between personally attacking Ridley Scott ("Senile! George Lucas clone!" etc.).
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 05, 2017, 07:26:55 PM
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 05, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
Can we also stop generalizing people if they don't like where this prequel series is going? If someone speaks against it they're automatically said to be a drone who wants pulse rifles and aliens
Maybe it's because most of the people trashing the prequels are demanding pulse rifles and alien queens in between personally attacking Ridley Scott ("Senile! George Lucas clone!" etc.).
I don't see anyone demanding pulse rifles and alien queens all people want is a good alien film.
Well, you're definitely going to get some form of pulse rifles vs. alien queens (action movie) now, since Disney is buying 20th Century Fox.
Quote from: Munkeywrench on Dec 05, 2017, 07:42:03 PM
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 05, 2017, 07:26:55 PM
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 05, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
Can we also stop generalizing people if they don't like where this prequel series is going? If someone speaks against it they're automatically said to be a drone who wants pulse rifles and aliens
Maybe it's because most of the people trashing the prequels are demanding pulse rifles and alien queens in between personally attacking Ridley Scott ("Senile! George Lucas clone!" etc.).
I don't see anyone demanding pulse rifles and alien queens all people want is a good alien film.
What do you think everyone who was raving about a Blomkamp film was demanding?
The salt is real in this thread
At this point, I just want Scott to cap his prequel story with a third film without any interference from Disney executives. After that, Disney can milk this series for eternity with endless shitty remakes of Cameron's film for all I care.
Well if you're going to make an alternate sequel to Aliens and do it the right way, it's going to retain the elements of Aliens while further expanding the world, just as Aliens did with Alien. Aliens takes from Alien, Alien 3.2 takes from Aliens AND Alien but by taking from Aliens it's taking from Alien anyway.
Yeah, y'know, we like action, horror, and sci-fi around here. Widen the circle each time. A sincere Alien 3 would have given us: space jockeys, Weyland headquarters, a Weyland character, more locations, pulse rifles, action, horror, suspense, adult Newt & Bishop & older Ripley and Hicks.
Doesn't mean it's a clone of Aliens anymore than The Dark Knight Rises was a clone of The Dark Knight or The Bourne Ultimatum was a clone of The Bourne Supremacy or any third was a clone of the second.
You ain't ever had it so good until Aliens! Seven Oscar nominations, boy! Stop kidding yourselves.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 04, 2017, 09:50:57 PM
Engineers + AI sounds far more interesting than Marines + Pulse Rifles.
But for some reason, most fans seem to want the latter. ???
We've never seen the Engineers do battle with anyone. It could be interesting to see them show up with lots of Black Goo mutilating and mutating Colonial Marines.
It's maybe not so much pulse rifles and queens and more about wanting to replicate the feel of the original films.
A bit like what they did with The Force Awakens. Then everyone can complain that they've just copied Aliens and how it should be more original.
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 05, 2017, 07:53:01 PM
The salt is real in this thread
Not to mention the histrionical rants are a bit thick in this thread.
Total Recall Reboot? Robocop Reboot? The Thing Reboot? Clash of The Titans Reboot? Ghostbusters Reboot? They are all million times worst than their originals. Why you even need any reboot? Well, its because Hollywood almost lost all their unique ideas, so now they need a new territory for it. . so, what about comic book super heroes? Or reboots of old classics. . you know, if this is the kind of a way how someone thinks, we are all doomed. We need new movies, or their good continuations, new ideas and unique elements, we dont want to see our best movies destroyed by their new shitty reboots. I hope that FOX will never let anyone reboot the original Alien or at least first three movies, because I loved them. I Hate reboots in general, and I will never fully understand anyone who likes them. There are only two reboots that Im proud for, The Peter Jackson's King Kong and the Dawn of the Dead from Zack Snyder, both these movies was done previously on old black and white screens. These two reboots are a miracles among all the shitty ones.
Quote from: Petr Švancara on Dec 05, 2017, 08:21:42 PM
Why you even need any reboot? I Hate reboots in general, and I will never fully understand anyone who likes them.
Quite simple. Audiences are generational and they die off. Future generation audiences may have no interest in going to the theater to watch your version/era of the xeno story. Reboots/remakes have been around for decades, there just wasn't any internet around for thousands to complain about them.
I guess there will be no Aliens in the next Alien movie because Fox won't spend any money on special effects. I suspect Ridley just wants to earn his salary and won't even care if the movie is a success or not.
Why?
Obviously Ridleys pension doesn't cover the bills so he's still making movies at eighty to make ends meet.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 04, 2017, 09:50:57 PM
Engineers + AI sounds far more interesting than Marines + Pulse Rifles.
But for some reason, most fans seem to want the latter. ???
...have it all? Have them all?
Why there's some arbitrary line in the sand between different elements I'll never know. Don't you want ALL of that in a pot? They're not mutually exclusive...
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 05, 2017, 09:56:41 PM
Obviously Ridleys pension doesn't cover the bills so he's still making movies at eighty to make ends meet.
Ah, right. Superannuation film making.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 05, 2017, 07:26:55 PM
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 05, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
Can we also stop generalizing people if they don't like where this prequel series is going? If someone speaks against it they're automatically said to be a drone who wants pulse rifles and aliens
Maybe it's because most of the people trashing the prequels are demanding pulse rifles and alien queens in between personally attacking Ridley Scott ("Senile! George Lucas clone!" etc.).
If we are going to keep this fake argument going, maybe we should mention the other group that defend anything Scott says or does. The man is taking the alcohol out of beer and you're still trying to tell us it'll be a great time at the beer festival.
It's not the beast that's cooked, it's Ridley.
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 10:27:15 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 05, 2017, 09:56:41 PM
Obviously Ridleys pension doesn't cover the bills so he's still making movies at eighty to make ends meet.
Ah, right. Superannuation film making.
Yep, not only is he senile, past his best and on a one man mission to destroy the alien franchise, apparently he's also greedy.
Quote from: RayneStorm82 on Dec 05, 2017, 10:38:56 PM
It's not the beast that's cooked, it's Ridley.
Starting to think all the accounts re-posting this post belong to the same person.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 05, 2017, 10:39:28 PM
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 10:27:15 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 05, 2017, 09:56:41 PM
Obviously Ridleys pension doesn't cover the bills so he's still making movies at eighty to make ends meet.
Ah, right. Superannuation film making.
Yep, not only is he senile, past his best and on a one man mission to destroy the alien franchise, apparently he's also greedy.
Not to mention literally being George Lucas.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 05, 2017, 10:40:32 PM
Quote from: RayneStorm82 on Dec 05, 2017, 10:38:56 PM
It's not the beast that's cooked, it's Ridley.
Starting to think all the accounts re-posting this post belong to the same person.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 05, 2017, 10:39:28 PM
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 10:27:15 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 05, 2017, 09:56:41 PM
Obviously Ridleys pension doesn't cover the bills so he's still making movies at eighty to make ends meet.
Ah, right. Superannuation film making.
Yep, not only is he senile, past his best and on a one man mission to destroy the alien franchise, apparently he's also greedy.
Not to mention literally being George Lucas.
One thing Ridley and George do share is incredibly ungrateful 'fans'
I don't think money would matter to him, that would be weird for someone that old who's primary interest is an art. Just doesn't seem to fit the character. Power though...maybe, but he's been left out of the Alien loop plenty before.
I don't think it would have anything to do with power. Ego maybe, that would be normal but I think he loves playing in a sci fi sandbox and is genuinely interested in exploring certain themes and ideas within the universe. Not everyone shares those interests but that's just how it goes.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 05, 2017, 07:26:55 PM
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 05, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
Can we also stop generalizing people if they don't like where this prequel series is going? If someone speaks against it they're automatically said to be a drone who wants pulse rifles and aliens
Maybe it's because most of the people trashing the prequels are demanding pulse rifles and alien queens in between personally attacking Ridley Scott ("Senile! George Lucas clone!" etc.).
I have to agree with this statement. I've come across several posts elsewhere were Scott is personally attacked. It's a bit hyperbolic, and that's been charitable. We all could give constructive criticism like some in AVP Galaxy have given regarding x film in the franchise though, once it goes personal, that's when I just tune out.
Ridley's still making movies for the same reason the Rolling Stones are still touring and making music.
Their job is their hobby. They don't need the cash. They just like doing what they do.
Quote from: 0321recon on Dec 05, 2017, 11:18:38 PM
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 05, 2017, 07:26:55 PM
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 05, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
Can we also stop generalizing people if they don't like where this prequel series is going? If someone speaks against it they're automatically said to be a drone who wants pulse rifles and aliens
Maybe it's because most of the people trashing the prequels are demanding pulse rifles and alien queens in between personally attacking Ridley Scott ("Senile! George Lucas clone!" etc.).
I have to agree with this statement. I've come across several posts elsewhere were Scott is personally attacked. It's a bit hyperbolic, and that's been charitable. We all could give constructive criticism like some in AVP Galaxy have given regarding x film in the franchise though, once it goes personal, that's when I just tune out.
Agreed
I remember what Wayne Haag said on one of the podcasts - it's easy to say a film sucks or is shit, but hundreds of talented people worked on it, from the sets, costumes, effects, etc. You are basically slagging off all of those people.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 05, 2017, 10:31:48 PM
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 05, 2017, 07:26:55 PM
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 05, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
Can we also stop generalizing people if they don't like where this prequel series is going? If someone speaks against it they're automatically said to be a drone who wants pulse rifles and aliens
Maybe it's because most of the people trashing the prequels are demanding pulse rifles and alien queens in between personally attacking Ridley Scott ("Senile! George Lucas clone!" etc.).
If we are going to keep this fake argument going, maybe we should mention the other group that defend anything Scott says or does. The man is taking the alcohol out of beer and you're still trying to tell us it'll be a great time at the beer festival.
I never knew the Xenomorphs were analogous to alcohol. I need to catch up on my Zizek, apparently.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 06, 2017, 12:03:13 AM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 05, 2017, 10:31:48 PM
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 05, 2017, 07:26:55 PM
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 05, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
Can we also stop generalizing people if they don't like where this prequel series is going? If someone speaks against it they're automatically said to be a drone who wants pulse rifles and aliens
Maybe it's because most of the people trashing the prequels are demanding pulse rifles and alien queens in between personally attacking Ridley Scott ("Senile! George Lucas clone!" etc.).
If we are going to keep this fake argument going, maybe we should mention the other group that defend anything Scott says or does. The man is taking the alcohol out of beer and you're still trying to tell us it'll be a great time at the beer festival.
I never knew the Xenomorphs were analogous to alcohol. I need to catch up on my Zizek, apparently.
Created with chemicals in a beaker. Pretty damn close!
If Ridley's doing this and we all know he's doing this, he should go full balls into it and call the next movie David: Covenant. Totally get an AC:DC thing going here.
Some people here want a smaller and more simple film. Similar to ALIEN(1979).
I saw ALIEN(1979) yesterday. Still it is a masterpiece but we never saw the famous monster. We only saw the famous monster in the last scenes of the classic. ALIEN is very similar to another classic: JAWS(Spielberg).
That style died 30 years ago.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Dec 06, 2017, 12:35:52 AM
If Ridley's doing this and we all know he's doing this, he should go full balls into it and call the next movie David: Covenant. Totally get an AC:DC thing going here.
This is an interesting point though. What are they going to call it? We will have Prometheus, Alien Covenant, David...?
These seem more like what a short story author would do rather than a connected trilogy. I'm interested to see if they will box them together and call them the Alien trilogy or what not.
Alien: Dunamis or Alien: Peirasmos will be my guess, keeping with a Greek name theme.
Quote from: FiorinaFury161 on Dec 06, 2017, 01:28:53 AM
Alien: Dunamis or Alien: Peirasmos will be my guess, keeping with a Greek name theme.
If the movie is mainly about David, they are going to have that's same "no Alien in Alien movie" comment.
Quote from: PierreVW on Dec 06, 2017, 01:10:33 AM
Some people here want a smaller and more simple film. Similar to ALIEN(1979).
I saw ALIEN(1979) yesterday. Still it is a masterpiece but we never saw the famous monster. We only saw the famous monster in the last scenes of the classic. ALIEN is very similar to another classic: JAWS(Spielberg).
That style died 30 years ago.
Well no. That style is fine then and it's fine now.
The thing is... Alien is supposed to graduate. Get a bit bigger each time. That doesn't mean sacrifice the scares, it means be a bit different and a bit bigger each time. That's what any good franchise does. Can't do monster in a tin can twice. Alien. Aliens. Prometheus. Good examples of playing in different corners of the sandbox successfully/more successfully than not.
Why don't they make a James Bond movie without James Bond? Or a Jurassic Park movie without the dinosaurs? Or a Batman movie with no Batman?
I would love to see the marketing campaign around this travesty.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 06, 2017, 01:55:29 AM
Quote from: FiorinaFury161 on Dec 06, 2017, 01:28:53 AM
Alien: Dunamis or Alien: Peirasmos will be my guess, keeping with a Greek name theme.
If the movie is mainly about David, they are going to have that's same "no Alien in Alien movie" comment.
oh yeah, replace Alien with David then. ;)
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 05, 2017, 07:26:55 PM
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 05, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
Can we also stop generalizing people if they don't like where this prequel series is going? If someone speaks against it they're automatically said to be a drone who wants pulse rifles and aliens
Maybe it's because most of the people trashing the prequels are demanding pulse rifles and alien queens in between personally attacking Ridley Scott ("Senile! George Lucas clone!" etc.).
I don't know what you're reading but it's certainly not this thread and it's not really the kind of comments I've been seeing much of. And I'm talking the generalisation of people who dislike the Alien prequels and automatically that means they want pulse rifles and Aliens.
I don't like seeing personal insults against Scott either and I'd appreciate people report those people so we can deal with them rather than turn this into a school ground argument.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 05, 2017, 10:39:28 PM
Quote from: SM on Dec 05, 2017, 10:27:15 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 05, 2017, 09:56:41 PM
Obviously Ridleys pension doesn't cover the bills so he's still making movies at eighty to make ends meet.
Ah, right. Superannuation film making.
Yep, not only is he senile, past his best and on a one man mission to destroy the alien franchise, apparently he's also greedy.
And none of these "he's senile" comments. I don't like the idea of where Scott is taking but I will not tolerant personal comments like that.
Quote from: BonesawT101 on Dec 06, 2017, 05:48:52 AM
Why don't they make a James Bond movie without James Bond? Or a Jurassic Park movie without the dinosaurs? Or a Batman movie with no Batman?
It's different. Since the very first Alien movie, we've seen there's more to the universe than the Alien itself. I've always been curious to know about the Space Jockey's and that's why I sought out the Expanded Universe and why I really didn't mind the core premise of Prometheus. I still don't mind the idea of other movies focusing on those Jockeys or their other Alien-like creations.
Corporal Hicks @ "why I really didn't mind the core premise of Prometheus. I still don't mind the idea of other movies focusing on those Jockeys or their other Alien-like creations."
See? Alien movie without alien, but with Engineers or other alien monsters is good. But with banal AI? I don't believe in this.
Corporal Hicks Do not forget that Ridley Scott said the final goal of the prequels was to get to the back door of the original Alien. So how can he "drift away" from the alien stuff being now so close?. It is like you are about to enter an ant nest but you want to avoid the ants!!!
Quote from: joylit on Dec 06, 2017, 11:07:59 AM
Corporal Hicks Do not forget that Ridley Scott said the final goal of the prequels was to get to the back door of the original Alien. So how can he "drift away" from the alien stuff being now so close?. It is like you are about to enter an ant nest but you want to avoid the ants!!!
Basically the current thing that he say's wipes out anything he said before that. That seems to be the pattern.
Ridley isnt saying the next film will have no Alien. Hes just talking about the focus, which will be David. That's no surprise, hes been the focus all along.
Quote from: edgy on Dec 05, 2017, 03:06:27 PM
Would rather a "psuedointellectual shitfest" that aimed for the stars than a "Muh Newt!" "Muh Hicks!" "Muh pulse rifles!" 'Member? CRINGE! A deranged, Wagner loving A.I. pouring his/its twisted psychosexuality into creatures via ancient alien technology has so much potential and I think Scott should go for it. We've already seen the perfect Alien film and its excellent sequel already, time for something else.
Lol looks like I touched a nerve. The point wasn't that it had to be a repeat of Aliens to be good, but destroying all mystery behind the Xenomorph's origins in such an unsatisfying manner was absolutely not the way to go. Revealing the origins would be divisive either way but now it's not a f**king Alien it's a science experiment that now leaves a severe plothole in the first movie. How did the eggs get there if they weren't created by the Engineers? How did so many get planted? I'm sure we'll get the answer in another film, but it'll probably be unsatisfying.
That's not even getting into how absolutely stupid every character had to be in order for the film to work. Two people slipping on the same blood puddle? Blowing up the ship so David could come save the day? Come on man.
But by all means, enjoy your Davidthon. Might want to avoid the first few films though, they have a bit more to do with aliens than androids.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 05, 2017, 07:26:55 PM
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 05, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
Can we also stop generalizing people if they don't like where this prequel series is going? If someone speaks against it they're automatically said to be a drone who wants pulse rifles and aliens
Maybe it's because most of the people trashing the prequels are demanding pulse rifles and alien queens in between personally attacking Ridley Scott ("Senile! George Lucas clone!" etc.).
Personally i only demand quality, whatever the subject may be.
LOL
yeah the characters in Alien were so smart .......
Quote from: prometheusfire08 on Dec 06, 2017, 02:08:36 PM
LOL
yeah the characters in Alien were so smart .......
Going down with spacesuits that proved ineffective vs going down with nothing because scanners said it's ok
Trusting a crew member who was so convincing that nobody knew he was a company android vs a guy letting his guard down around the android he was literally pointing a gun at five minutes ago and looking into a weird ass egg that he says is pretty cool.
Characters in Alien didn't make perfect decisions either but comparing the two is laughable.
Quote from: CainsSon on Dec 05, 2017, 07:10:52 PM
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 04, 2017, 07:50:12 PM
I don't fear a reboot at this point, I welcome one
Yeah man. Because the reboot is just guaranteed to be great and they'll be Aliens in it!*
*Reboots are almost universally terrible and have outright destroyed multiple horror franchises.
Same thing with prequels, even worse actually. At least reboots really shouldn't be associated with the original movies, so the original films don't lose their credibility but shoddy prequels can affect how to whole franchise is perceived.
In that regard, i hope the next prequel sequel turns the whole Alien prequel thing in to a reboot :D
I think I want Juan Antonio Bayona for directing the next alien film instead of scott. Just look at these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JvrgSPFbDs
Bayona would be an interesting choice (on a side note A Monster Calls is great and you should watch it).
"I think what we have to do is gradually drift away from the alien stuff."
Unless I'm mistaken, and I apologize if I am, that's like making a Jurassic Park movie and saying, " "I think what we have to do is gradually drift away from the Dinosaur stuff."
There unquestionably is at least a "portion" of people in the Alien fanbase who do love the movies because they revolve around the presence of the iconic xenomorph, and years from now, I sincerely hope whoever is in a decision making position remembers those fans.
I think Scott misses making Blade Runner which is why he wants more AI in the next movie. Covenant to me was pretty meh for having dull characters and a weak story. Scott needs to hire better writers to write his movies in my opinion.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 06, 2017, 08:40:28 AM
Since the very first Alien movie, we've seen there's more to the universe than the Alien itself.
Exactly.
Quote from: Alienon on Dec 06, 2017, 11:07:19 AM
But with banal AI?
AI is banal?
Ash IS the main villain of ALIEN.
Quote from: OmarVel1692 on Dec 06, 2017, 07:25:11 PM
I think I want Juan Antonio Bayona for directing the next alien film instead of scott. Just look at these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JvrgSPFbDs
God Bryce Dallas Howard is hot.
Quote from: Hellspawn28 on Dec 06, 2017, 09:36:07 PM
I think Scott misses making Blade Runner which is why he wants more AI in the next movie. Covenant to me was pretty meh for having dull characters and a weak story. Scott needs to hire better writers to write his movies in my opinion.
Or maybe the AI is the new hat from Ridley's point of view. Just like the ancient astronauts hypothesis a few years ago, which gained widespread popularity and a revival thanks to the mainstream media.
What I love most about the original Alien film is everything leading up to the chest burst. That to me is the heart and soul of the movie. The mystery, the creepiness, the atmosphere. In fact, all of my favorite scenes are those where the Alien is not on screen. That's not to say I don't love the Big Chap, but to me anyway, he is secondary to everything else represented in the Alien universe.
That Scott has given time and attention to those other aspects is preferable to me. However, I also understand the the Alien itself is the point for many other fans. Neither of us are wrong, it's just a matter of preference.
Bring on the AI, the Engineers, the corporations...whatever it may be. I'm in.
Ant aliens and mind controlled android on android rape, don't seem that far away any more.
im still on board for david's finale but scott continuously bashing the alien pisses me off. if you wanted to tell your little pet project AI story you should have saved it for your own franchise, you cant piggyback off the beasts fame and then say its "cooked".
Bah, this latest news just re-inforces my way of looking at Ridley's PROMETHEUS storylines as merely being an 'alternate re-imagining' of ALIEN's source material and elements, rather than being an actual prequel story to the original movie.
I never thought I'd end up having to think of them this way when Ridley announced his welcomed return to this franchise, considering these latest movies are directed and heavily conceived by the exact same person who gave us such an awesome movie in the first place - but I've come to the sad conclusion that ALIEN's original writers would NOT have come up with something that undermined the creepy 'cosmic horror' of the Xenomorph and Space Jockey in the ways that Ridley has chosen to do.
So I'll stick to looking on ALIEN as being a totally separate movie entity which gives the impression that the Xenomorphs and Space Jockeys are part of a wider, mysterious 'cosmic horror' in the universe, involving creatures that have evolved totally separately to mankind...rather than being 'something created by one of our robots', or being a 'spacesuit'!
Personally, I wanted an ALIEN prequel storyline to continue that 'cosmic horror' vibe of the unknown, rather than become 'the Fassbender's DAVID show'. Such a pity, considering Ridley's continued great eye for visuals.
(But while I've resolved to look on Ridley's ongoing PROMETHEUS storyline as a separate kind of 'FanFic' unrelated to his original, I'm still willing to give them a re-watch in re-edited versions in the future - my current favourite versions for now happen to be CoalescedCha's excellent PROMETHEUS WORKPRINT EDITION 2017, and Ridley 79's equally excellent COVENANT RECUT. Both have proved a far more satisfying watch to me compared to the theatrical versions)
Ridley Scott:
'Yes, the next Alien film will have no aliens, just AI. Then I'm going to film a Jurassic Park film featuring carrots, then I'll remake Hannibal using Ford Tauruses instead of elephants. Then I'll sell you some cornflakes made out of plywood.
Oh, and then I'm going to make a sequel to A.I. featuring Haley Joel Osment vs a Xenomorph and call it ALIEN.'
if jurassic park only had raptors in each movie ............ with "0" explination for their existence outside of destroyed/abandoned lab.
pretty sure it would be time for something else, a t Rex maybe ? how abut the back story for why we have seen 4 movies with just raptors WITH "0" EXPLINATION .....
I'm still laughing at the people here who think no Aliens will be in the next one.
Alien will now be called Blade Runner. Blade Runner will now be called ??
Is he talking about Alien or Blade Runner? Ya effin lost me in riddles...Why doesn't he quit already and go make an IG 88 movie for Disney instead? Or something..Peeps are here to see Alien dewd.
What a surprise. Another change in direction.
Someone needs to teach Ridley how to read a map
so scott basically used the Alien as a "backdoor pilot" for more robot movies?
Aliens are going to be difficult to avoid in the next film surely? David did bring two facehugger on board the Covenant. What I would love to see is the engineers turn up with a ship full of aliens! Could you imagine how pissed off that android would be, that would make up for everything.
Amen.
It's the only way to save this trilogy.
Whatever happens, he has to bridge them to the first Alien movie. Unless there are plans to reboot the whole franchise.
Quote from: monkeylove on Dec 09, 2017, 04:00:35 PM
Whatever happens, he has to bridge them to the first Alien movie. Unless there are plans to reboot the whole franchise.
He doesn't
have to, in fact I think many of us would prefer if he didn't. If the Aliens on Lv 426 were wholly unrelated to David, I for one would rejoice.
I think that 2000 colonists are too much for a next movie, how many colonists we have in Hadley's Hope colony from the second film? You know. . you just cant have a 2000 actors in it, that is fact. You need to do something in order to reduce this numbers, really. So my idea is, that we will meet David on Origae-6 maybe a few years after the Covenant landing, perhaps that would be the explanation of why most of the Covenant original crew will be decimated. Another idea is, that Ridley could take the tone of the next film as a war conflict, we can see a quick massacre scenes between Colonists (that could just wake up from the Cryo-pods) and Aliens on board the Covenant. It could end up with David as a main protagonist inside the Alien hive. You cant have room for two thousand people on the set, it is nonsense unless you want to create a pure war movie. So, we will meet an entirely new crew with another ship heading to the Origae-6 or we could have a few survivors from Covenant, still fighting against David creations or something. I think that at least part of these ideas could be true. We will see. Lets wait for it.
Quote from: Petr Švancara on Dec 09, 2017, 05:09:22 PM
I think that 2000 colonists are too much for a next movie, how many colonists we have in Hadley's Hope colony from the second film? You know. . you just cant have a 2000 actors in it, that is fact. You need to do something in order to reduce this numbers, really. So my idea is, that we will meet David on Origae-6 maybe a few years after the Covenant landing, perhaps that would be the explanation of why most of the Covenant original crew will be decimated. Another idea is, that Ridley could take the tone of the next film as a war conflict, we can see a quick massacre scenes between Colonists (that could just wake up from the Cryo-pods) and Aliens on board the Covenant. It could end up with David as a main protagonist inside the Alien hive. You cant have room for two thousand people on the set, it is nonsense unless you want to create a pure war movie. So, we will meet an entirely new crew with another ship heading to the Origae-6 or we could have a few survivors from Covenant, still fighting against David creations or something. I think that at least part of these ideas could be true. We will see. Lets wait for it.
There were a 158 colonists in Aliens. They didn't show 158 people. Maybe two dozen extras total were shown in the colony scenes in Aliens.
You wouldn't have to show 2000 people in any way. There are a number of ways that could be taken care of, it just takes using your imagination. David's in control. He could wake them up however he sees fit.
OpenMaw - Yeah, of course. But still, 2000 colonists is by far the biggest number of the crew that we ever had. As you already said, there was 158 colonists in Aliens, and that was already established colony with atmosphere processor slowly changing its planetary climate. I mean, if this is the biggest crew of all. . well, that could mean something. I was also thinking about eggmorphing, my previous Idea was that these two thousand good souls could be all the Alien eggs from the first movie, its just an idea. Because clearly, we have a huge pile of meat for David experiments or a one, huge and monumental tragedy in the history of mankind space program, at least in Alien universe. I really think, that the Covenant ship just cant be so simply lost. . damn, its a huge expensive ship with a lot of people in it, the whole plan to arrive on Origae-6 must be somehow monitored from Earth headquarters or something like that, even the David at the end send a message back to Earth. . this fact show us, that the David basically uncover himself a little bit (still as a Walter) but its very interesting. Paradise was an unknown extraterrestial planet, but Origae-6 is a planet that humans study for a long time, so. . I mean, its a planet that is important for humanity, I have a strong feeling that everything just ends here, on this planet. Im trying to say that David is a little bit in a corner here. . you know, an unknown rogue Android on a pretty well documented and categorized planet, where he goes next if things go wrong here, huh? I want that movie just now, Im so glad that we will see another one.
Quote from: Petr Švancara on Dec 09, 2017, 05:09:22 PM
I think that 2000 colonists are too much for a next movie, how many colonists we have in Hadley's Hope colony from the second film? You know. . you just cant have a 2000 actors in it, that is fact. You need to do something in order to reduce this numbers, really. So my idea is, that we will meet David on Origae-6 maybe a few years after the Covenant landing, perhaps that would be the explanation of why most of the Covenant original crew will be decimated. Another idea is, that Ridley could take the tone of the next film as a war conflict, we can see a quick massacre scenes between Colonists (that could just wake up from the Cryo-pods) and Aliens on board the Covenant. It could end up with David as a main protagonist inside the Alien hive. You cant have room for two thousand people on the set, it is nonsense unless you want to create a pure war movie. So, we will meet an entirely new crew with another ship heading to the Origae-6 or we could have a few survivors from Covenant, still fighting against David creations or something. I think that at least part of these ideas could be true. We will see. Lets wait for it.
Ridley did mention the Engineers are coming back for the next film. He talks about them finding their world decimated and wanting revenge.
I guess more than half of those colonists are going to become David's xeno army to battle the Engineers. In addition, the company is going to be involved, so either we'll see some Colonial Marines trying to grab one of the creature and take David when the Engineers come in.
Quote from: The Crusher on Dec 09, 2017, 11:27:09 AM
that would make up for everything.
Only, and ONLY if David finally got put down. I'm sick of his character.
Agreed
David is the best character in the series.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 04, 2017, 08:34:20 PM
Ridley is right. A new movie focusing on David would be fantastic. A great way to revive the franchise, rather than bogging it down in the tropes of the past.
Can't wait for Covenant 2, I had a blast with Covenant 1 and Prometheus. Keep them coming Ridley Scott. :)
Amen.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 10, 2017, 12:30:15 AM
David is the best character in the series.
I'd say he's tied with Ash and Ripley.
david, though i have a soft spot for oram
I think Ridley's forgotten which of his films was about AI gone bad and which was about space aliens.
Quote from: Kurai on Dec 09, 2017, 04:42:49 PM
He doesn't have to, in fact I think many of us would prefer if he didn't. If the Aliens on Lv 426 were wholly unrelated to David, I for one would rejoice.
In that case, we will have two timelines. I don't mind that as long as they can still develop the first, but I'm not counting on that.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 10, 2017, 02:41:25 AM
I think Ridley's forgotten which of his films was about AI gone bad and which was about space aliens.
Haha. I think Ridley wanted to do a sequel of Blade Runner 2049 but 2049 was a total flop at the box office so the Blade Runner franchise is totally dead.
As one on record for disliking both Prometheus and Covenant, I will reiterate that the problem with these prequel movies has nothing to do with pulse rifles, space marines, the creature, the look of the movies, or the ideas in play. It's all in the scripting, presentation, and handling of the characters and story. How did we get from point A to point B? When one thinks about that, these movies fall apart. The prequels could be called Morons in Space, and it would be an accurate description of what we see on the screen. I'm all for characters sometimes making bad decisions. Here, we're not talking a few bad decisions, We're talking Tales of the Dumbest People in the Universe. These people deserve to die for being so stupid. And how we got from point A to point B makes no sense.
Let's talk momentarily about how Convenant would have really ended: Move the ship 40km closer to the storm. That exceeds the ship's tolerances by a lot. OK. Ship breaks up, everybody dies. No one to rescue survivors on the planet. They die. David is still there. Roll credits. That's the way I see it. Or Oram listens to Daniels, everybody gets back in the freezers, and the ship treks on to its original destination. You get a different movie.
Now, we have Ridley making these contentious statements about a movie that may or may not happen..Ok. Track record indicates, whatever else happens, we're probably getting another Tale of the Dumbest People in the Universe. Also, based on the way Prometheus connected to Covenant, we have no guarantee at all where the next movie will go. Seems likely David will be in it, but it's speculation. In the end, we get what we get. I hope we get something good, but I expect another delivery of beaurtiful garbage.
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Dec 10, 2017, 05:55:53 PM
As one on record for disliking both Prometheus and Covenant, I will reiterate that the problem with these prequel movies has nothing to do with pulse rifles, space marines, the creature, the look of the movies, or the ideas in play. It's all in the scripting, presentation, and handling of the characters and story. How did we get from point A to point B? When one thinks about that, these movies fall apart. The prequels could be called Morons in Space, and it would be an accurate description of what we see on the screen. I'm all for characters sometimes making bad decisions. Here, we're not talking a few bad decisions, We're talking Tales of the Dumbest People in the Universe. These people deserve to die for being so stupid. And how we got from point A to point B makes no sense.
Let's talk momentarily about how Convenant would have really ended: Move the ship 40km closer to the storm. That exceeds the ship's tolerances by a lot. OK. Ship breaks up, everybody dies. No one to rescue survivors on the planet. They die. David is still there. Roll credits. That's the way I see it. Or Oram listens to Daniels, everybody gets back in the freezers, and the ship treks on to its original destination. You get a different movie.
Now, we have Ridley making these contentious statements about a movie that may or may not happen..Ok. Track record indicates, whatever else happens, we're probably getting another Tale of the Dumbest People in the Universe. Also, based on the way Prometheus connected to Covenant, we have no guarantee at all where the next movie will go. Seems likely David will be in it, but it's speculation. In the end, we get what we get. I hope we get something good, but I expect another delivery of beaurtiful garbage.
Dumbest People in the Universe?. It's weird this new trend. Everyone is kind of dumb in all movies. People were dumb in the classics too. I suppose it's nostalgia factor. Everything of the past was better and that kind of things.
Quote from: PierreVW on Dec 10, 2017, 06:31:45 PM
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Dec 10, 2017, 05:55:53 PM
As one on record for disliking both Prometheus and Covenant, I will reiterate that the problem with these prequel movies has nothing to do with pulse rifles, space marines, the creature, the look of the movies, or the ideas in play. It's all in the scripting, presentation, and handling of the characters and story. How did we get from point A to point B? When one thinks about that, these movies fall apart. The prequels could be called Morons in Space, and it would be an accurate description of what we see on the screen. I'm all for characters sometimes making bad decisions. Here, we're not talking a few bad decisions, We're talking Tales of the Dumbest People in the Universe. These people deserve to die for being so stupid. And how we got from point A to point B makes no sense.
Let's talk momentarily about how Convenant would have really ended: Move the ship 40km closer to the storm. That exceeds the ship's tolerances by a lot. OK. Ship breaks up, everybody dies. No one to rescue survivors on the planet. They die. David is still there. Roll credits. That's the way I see it. Or Oram listens to Daniels, everybody gets back in the freezers, and the ship treks on to its original destination. You get a different movie.
Now, we have Ridley making these contentious statements about a movie that may or may not happen..Ok. Track record indicates, whatever else happens, we're probably getting another Tale of the Dumbest People in the Universe. Also, based on the way Prometheus connected to Covenant, we have no guarantee at all where the next movie will go. Seems likely David will be in it, but it's speculation. In the end, we get what we get. I hope we get something good, but I expect another delivery of beaurtiful garbage.
Dumbest People in the Universe?. It's weird this new trend. Everyone is kind of dumb in all movies. People were dumb in the classics too. I suppose it's nostalgia factor. Everything of the past was better and that kind of things.
This thing has been addressed so many times now, I'm having a hard time telling whether I'm being trolled or not.
I can buy dumb things in small doses. An Evil Android telling you he's been making monsters and come check this latest one out....!
I actually switch the movie off at that bit. I quite enjoy it up til then.
Perhaps these characters aren't the "dumbest people in the universe". Perhaps you lack the understanding to comprehend what the vision of these movies are. You expect to see what you have seen previously, but not every movie is the same. They have different people behind them. It's not a question of pulse rifles and marines, no, but given Aliens is the most popular movie in the franchise that's what people base their expectations upon. They expect to see the same kind of character interactions and tone, when that is not what the new films are going for and instead of trying to understand this new approach, they automatically reject it.
Or maybe we see the "vision" and the characters are still morons?
No? We're still on "If you don't like it you just don't get it" after all these years?
Woo.
That's just your opinion, SiL.
I do not believe these characters are morons or poorly written. So either I'm wrong, you're wrong or it's entirely subjective which it is.
And maybe some don't see the "vision", as you say. In any case, it doesn't hurt to try and increase your understanding. But first you would have to get past your own bias towards the film.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 10, 2017, 02:41:25 AM
I think Ridley's forgotten which of his films was about AI gone bad and which was about space aliens.
Haha, truth.
Gotta say, while I think the David and Engineer and black goo stuff has been really interesting, I still think these Ridley Scott prequels would have been better served if they'd been divorced from 'Alien' entirely. Ridley Scott would have the freedom to go totally nuts and make something really scary and original and thought provoking without being hamstrung by ties to 'Alien', and he wouldn't have to say things like "I don't think the Alien is interesting anymore" as he's preparing to make another Alien movie.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 11, 2017, 10:35:21 AM
That's just your opinion, SiL.
Yes. And it's a valid one that has nothing to do with seeing or not seeing the "vision". I get what they're going for. I still don't like the characters.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 11, 2017, 10:35:21 AM
That's just your opinion, SiL.
I do not believe these characters are morons or poorly written. So either I'm wrong, you're wrong or it's entirely subjective which it is.
And maybe some don't see the "vision", as you say. In any case, it doesn't hurt to try and increase your understanding. But first you would have to get past your own bias towards the film.
A guy in a previous AvPGalaxy podcast said that when you're not into the movie, everything seems like shit and you pick out every little detail. I and other posters have demonstrated many times that you can pick out flaws close the same severity in Alien and Aliens. That's why people can call Covenant's crew "morons in space" while thinking Dallas is a completely realistic and human character, because they are
into Alien as a whole but not into Covenant. The reasons for this can of course be many, but I personally believe the marketing campaign setting up non-met expectations bears a huge part of the blame.
Of course, not everybody has the same kind of introspective and self-analytical mindset as the guy who said this in the podcast, and more often than not they will rationalize every flaw in the first two movies as e.g. a character being "human".
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 11, 2017, 11:00:11 AM
A guy in a previous AvPGalaxy podcast said that when you're not into the movie, everything seems like shit and you pick out every little detail.
I'm going to agree on this, I've experience this myself. I bought the movie today on Blu Ray ( was half price mind you) and asked myself why I would buy a movie that I'd said so much bad stuff about. Part of it was support for the franchise, the other part was that maybe it's just an Alien thing, where you have to have it. I do find myself nit picking the movie a lot.
Then I think, the movie just isn't that good. Like it's not even a Jurassic World type good ( No where near the original yet sort of fun and in the spirit). It's just not really an Alien film and it's not a Prometheus film. It's exactly what it sounds like went on behind the scenes. One half of the production wanting to expand and the other wanting the same old. The result is literally a movie split in half. The first ( Scott's half?) quite intriguing and mysterious and the second half a total by the numbers ( Apone voice) sci fi channel monster flick.
Torn. Completely torn boys!
Even Ripley Daniels with a pulse rifle machine gun couldn't save it for you. The missing ingredient was a Queen, no?
Yeah the last two scenes of Covenant are very like Aliens. The lander action scene is better than anything in Aliens. The Daniels vs proto-xeno in the hangar bay is very similar to Ripley vs Queen.
Maybe because there is no powerloader? Is that why fans are upset?
Are you really that desperate to ignore people's opinions or are you trolling by this point ???
Quote from: Highland on Dec 11, 2017, 05:41:52 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 11, 2017, 11:00:11 AM
A guy in a previous AvPGalaxy podcast said that when you're not into the movie, everything seems like shit and you pick out every little detail.
I'm going to agree on this, I've experience this myself. I bought the movie today on Blu Ray ( was half price mind you) and asked myself why I would buy a movie that I'd said so much bad stuff about. Part of it was support for the franchise, the other part was that maybe it's just an Alien thing, where you have to have it. I do find myself nit picking the movie a lot.
Then I think, the movie just isn't that good. Like it's not even a Jurassic World type good ( No where near the original yet sort of fun and in the spirit). It's just not really an Alien film and it's not a Prometheus film. It's exactly what it sounds like went on behind the scenes. One half of the production wanting to expand and the other wanting the same old. The result is literally a movie split in half. The first ( Scott's half?) quite intriguing and mysterious and the second half a total by the numbers ( Apone voice) sci fi channel monster flick.
Torn. Completely torn boys!
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 11, 2017, 07:09:59 PM
Yeah the last two scenes of Covenant are very like Aliens. The lander action scene is better than anything in Aliens. The Daniels vs proto-xeno in the hangar bay is very similar to Ripley vs Queen.
Maybe because there is no powerloader? Is that why fans are upset?
Aside from the one shot of horrible unfinished CGI, the chase scene could be interpreted as a decent fan service in itself, but it's function is to set up for the subversive ending.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 11, 2017, 07:35:18 PM
Are you really that desperate to ignore people's opinions or are you trolling by this point ???
I'm not "ignoring people's opinions", I've addressed them multiple times if you read my posts. I have yet to find one convincing argument why I should hate the film, however.
As for trolling, that is against the rules of the forum and if you suspect trolling, I suggest not making a post about it but click the link at the bottom right of the post that says "Report to moderator", type your complaint into the field provided and click "Submit".
Quote from: SiL on Dec 11, 2017, 07:35:18 PM
Are you really that desperate to ignore people's opinions or are you trolling by this point ???
I know I'm stating the bleeding obvious, but his whole raison d'etre is to ignore criticism as 'nitpicking' and 'hating', and indulge in endless 'but what about Alien and Aliens?'
It's not discussion or debate - it's sticking ones fingers in ones ears and sticking to talking points.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 11, 2017, 07:52:25 PM
I'm not "ignoring people's opinions", I've addressed them multiple times if you read my posts. I have yet to find one convincing argument why I should hate the film, however.
No one is trying to convince you to hate it. And the fact you keep boiling everything down to "I guess they don't like it because it's not like Aliens" means you aren't listening at all.
Speaking of Aliens, this thread and the Covenant board in general lately reminds me a lot of the sad Aliens:Colonial Marines Gearbox forum where some posters senslessly defended A:CM no mather what the criticism was. Some of them were obvious trolls but here i'm not sure, it's either trolling or just plain delusion.
Many things are defensible to a degree if you can present a well reasoned argument. Even A:CM.
That's often not what happens unfortunately.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 11, 2017, 07:09:59 PM
Maybe because there is no powerloader? Is that why fans are upset?
Honestly I was more upset that the movie was dogshit more than anything
Bingo
I generally try to avoid movies without Pulse Rifles and/or Lightsabers.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 11, 2017, 08:10:24 PM
No one is trying to convince you to hate it. And the fact you keep boiling everything down to "I guess they don't like it because it's not like Aliens" means you aren't listening at all.
Not exactly, although you are partly right in that it is irresistible to come to that conclusion, given that many haters of the prequel films appear to be Aliens fans. I could start a poll on this forum to prove my point, but that would most likely be viewed as trolling so I have not done so. I am not bashing people who don't like the film, that is their prerogative, but the constant negativity could almost be construed as trolling itself. I am merely trying to defend the film as I feel it is undervalued by much of the fanbase. Although that is just the nature of the beast for fans of a particular subject to have strong opinions in favour or against, otherwise we would not be posting on a fan forum discussing the merits of films we both feel passionate about.
(Btw if you like Aliens and don't like Alien Covenant that is absolutely fine and I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. You are entitled to your own opinions)
Quote from: kwisatz on Dec 11, 2017, 11:53:38 PM
I generally try to avoid movies without Pulse Rifles and/or Lightsabers.
I hear studio monopolies and their subsidiaries are hiring PR spokespeople. Have you sent them an application?
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 12, 2017, 12:03:04 AM
Quote from: kwisatz on Dec 11, 2017, 11:53:38 PM
I generally try to avoid movies without Pulse Rifles and/or Lightsabers.
I hear studio monopolies and their subsidiaries are hiring PR spokespeople. Have you sent them an application?
Thank you, but im perfectly happy with my current job!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.wixstatic.com%2Fmedia%2Fcd3d7e_ddcafd5aca8247f5901b6d3fd24f4a85%7Emv2.jpg_256&hash=49b9982fb73cfde31ddd552212e7130891e0b55b)
One can probably ask a sampling of A:C viewers worldwide (especially from Asia) and from the millennial demographic, and ask them to compare A:C with Aliens. What are the chances that they know little or nothing about the latter?
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 11, 2017, 11:59:26 PM
Quote from: SiL on Dec 11, 2017, 08:10:24 PM
No one is trying to convince you to hate it. And the fact you keep boiling everything down to "I guess they don't like it because it's not like Aliens" means you aren't listening at all.
Not exactly, although you are partly right in that it is irresistible to come to that conclusion, given that many haters of the prequel films appear to be Aliens fans. I could start a poll on this forum to prove my point, but that would most likely be viewed as trolling so I have not done so. I am not bashing people who don't like the film, that is their prerogative, but the constant negativity could almost be construed as trolling itself. I am merely trying to defend the film as I feel it is undervalued by much of the fanbase. Although that is just the nature of the beast for fans of a particular subject to have strong opinions in favour or against, otherwise we would not be posting on a fan forum discussing the merits of films we both feel passionate about.
(Btw if you like Aliens and don't like Alien Covenant that is absolutely fine and I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. You are entitled to your own opinions)
What would the poll questions be?!
a) Alien Covenant is the best film ever.
or
b) Aliens is the best because I like pulse rifles and power loaders and the Queen and I'm dumb.
Game over, man!
Im not falling for this suggestive crap.
I take b).
Definitely (a).
Rock da boat & Shock da folk. Poke the dumb f**kers in the eye.
In this regard, I'm with Scott and his subversive vision all the way.
-Windebieste.
Poke in this, avant-garde hipster!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imfdb.org%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F4%2F43%2FAliens_Pulse3.jpg%2F600px-Aliens_Pulse3.jpg&hash=adc141b26d59766bac1a498a39cb4d1e59258661)
;)
Quote from: SM on Dec 12, 2017, 01:03:55 AM
a) Alien Covenant is the best film ever.
or
b) Aliens is the best because I like pulse rifles and power loaders and the Queen and I'm dumb.
I'd never put powerloaders into the equation before. My (low IQ) mind is blown.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 12, 2017, 12:59:44 AM
What would the poll questions be?!
I'm glad you asked, Highland.
It would be something to the tune of:
a) I like Aliens and don't like Alien Covenant
b) I like Alien Covenant and don't like Aliens
c) I like both
d) I like neither
Of course nobody is dumb for liking Aliens, I never meant to imply that. When I was 9 years old Aliens was one of my favourite movies. :)
I see what you did there.
Quote from: monkeylove on Dec 12, 2017, 12:31:10 AM
One can probably ask a sampling of A:C viewers worldwide (especially from Asia) and from the millennial demographic, and ask them to compare A:C with Aliens.
According to IMDB, the millennial demographic reveals the following ratings on both films....
A:C
Age bracket 18-29
48,276 Total voters
Rating 6.5
Aliens
Age bracket 18-29
127,177 Total voters
Rating 8.2
Seems Millennials have a healthy respect for a 30 year old film. And this is not an isolated example. Millennials rate old classics like 2001 ASO, 12 Angry Men, Psycho, The Shining, The Godfather, among many other examples higher than the Boomer and older audience rated them. Which those films were targeted at those older generations.
Blows that stereotype Millennials are an audience of mindless sheep, out of the water.
Quote from: monkeylove on Dec 12, 2017, 12:31:10 AM
What are the chances that they know little or nothing about the latter?
Considering the results above, I would say the chances are quite high they are acquainted with the latter.
I, too, am surprised that millennials like the action movie with explosions more.
Your innuendo would be effective if Millennials held in high regard only old classics that were filled with explosions, but your attempt falls flat considering my examples above. They apparently have a greater appreciation for old classics that are strictly compelling dramas / thrillers........or..... to address your point, minus explosions.....than the old geezers do for their own generation of old films.
Embarrassing........... Very embarrassing.
Except for the part where action films are popular (and gross the most) among millennials and younger audiences altogether, bud. Perhaps you're unaware of the Marvel and Fast & Furious BO numbers, chief? Or, just look at R rated action films like John Wick, Logan, and Fury Road, for instance.
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 11, 2017, 10:05:59 PM
Speaking of Aliens, this thread and the Covenant board in general lately reminds me a lot of the sad Aliens:Colonial Marines Gearbox forum where some posters senslessly defended A:CM no mather what the criticism was. Some of them were obvious trolls but here i'm not sure, it's either trolling or just plain delusion.
Lol. Subtle.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 12, 2017, 02:52:32 AM
Except for the part where action films are popular (and gross the most) among millennials and younger audiences altogether, bud. Perhaps you're unaware of the Marvel and Fast & Furious BO numbers, chief? Or, just look at R rated action films like John Wick, Logan, and Fury Road, for instance.
Understood, and mainly agree...... bud. But that wasn't the question that monkey asked, now was it.........chief.
QuoteMillennials rate old classics like 2001 ASO
Interesting, i didnt expect that, though in 2001s case it might simply be due to a smaller sample size (130k vs 173k)!?
2001 got 8.8 for >18, but i guess if you are among the few who actually watch a 2.5 hour Kubrick scifi chances are per se quite high you gonna like what you see.
Next morning you will get bullied at high school, again.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 12, 2017, 02:28:14 AM
I, too, am surprised that millennials like the action movie with explosions more.
Ah, the generational boogeyman I see. Classic. Watch out for that darned KISS, there's something not quite right about that Gene fellow.
Formula's are important. They are a sure way of doing something correctly. The prequels have strayed too far from the formula. Yeah, things can get redundant, but things that work should just be left alone. This is what happens when you try to fix something that isn't broken. Now we're leaving the aliens behind, what on earth is fox thinking? I think Ridley is trying to say something significant with these films, the trouble is that he chose the wrong platform to say it on. Pete's sake, I'm actually rooting for David now. At least he's wiping out the bland and annoying casts in these prequels, and he's just a darn likeable bad guy.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 12, 2017, 01:32:51 AM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 12, 2017, 12:59:44 AM
What would the poll questions be?!
I'm glad you asked, Highland.
It would be something to the tune of:
a) I like Aliens and don't like Alien Covenant
b) I like Alien Covenant and don't like Aliens
c) I like both
d) I like neither
Of course nobody is dumb for liking Aliens, I never meant to imply that. When I was 9 years old Aliens was one of my favourite movies. :)
What if you liked Alien, but didn't like Covenant?
**throws curve ball
Quote from: Deathbearer on Dec 12, 2017, 04:22:27 AM
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 12, 2017, 02:28:14 AM
I, too, am surprised that millennials like the action movie with explosions more.
Ah, the generational boogeyman I see. Classic. Watch out for that darned KISS, there's something not quite right about that Gene fellow.
I see you cut yourself on my post. Apologies.
This debate is somehow reminding me of Zack Snyder fanboys who defend those dc movies to death
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 11, 2017, 11:59:26 PM
Not exactly, although you are partly right in that it is irresistible to come to that conclusion, given that many haters of the prequel films appear to be Aliens fans.
I'm not a fan of
Aliens and I dislike
Covenant.
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 12, 2017, 06:57:17 AM
This debate is somehow reminding me of Zack Snyder fanboys who defend those dc movies to death
Alien fanboys mocking another movie universes' fanboys. That's a surefire South Park sketch if I've ever seen one.
Quote from: Scorpio
Not exactly, although you are partly right in that it is irresistible to come to that conclusion, given that many haters of the prequel films appear to be Aliens fans.
Alien Covenant has a dedicated forum site to that movie alone, seems pretty popular also. I wonder why a forum site dedicated to Aliens 86 never launched? Even more disturbing, or a forum site dedicated to Alien 79? Maybe they do exist, I'm just not aware.
There have been a few. Generally people like talking about the franchise as a whole, though, with dedicated subsections like AvPG has.
Quote from: SiL on Dec 12, 2017, 07:49:13 AM
There have been a few. Generally people like talking about the franchise as a whole, though, with dedicated subsections like AvPG has.
That makes sense. I would imagine it would never truly be dedicated anyway, eventually forum discussion would spill over to the other movies in the franchise. Though Alien-covenant.com forum seems to stay focused on Covenant for the most part with the occasional mention of other films.
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 11, 2017, 10:05:59 PM
Speaking of Aliens, this thread and the Covenant board in general lately reminds me a lot of the sad Aliens:Colonial Marines Gearbox forum where some posters senslessly defended A:CM no mather what the criticism was. Some of them were obvious trolls but here i'm not sure, it's either trolling or just plain delusion.
So if you like Covenant you are either a troll or delusional? how is that any different from accusing those that don't like it as pulse rifle loving meat heads?
Both arguments are ridiculously dumb.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Dec 12, 2017, 02:24:56 AM
Quote from: monkeylove on Dec 12, 2017, 12:31:10 AM
One can probably ask a sampling of A:C viewers worldwide (especially from Asia) and from the millennial demographic, and ask them to compare A:C with Aliens.
According to IMDB, the millennial demographic reveals the following ratings on both films....
A:C
Age bracket 18-29
48,276 Total voters
Rating 6.5
Aliens
Age bracket 18-29
127,177 Total voters
Rating 8.2
Seems Millennials have a healthy respect for a 30 year old film. And this is not an isolated example. Millennials rate old classics like 2001 ASO, 12 Angry Men, Psycho, The Shining, The Godfather, among many other examples higher than the Boomer and older audience rated them. Which those films were targeted at those older generations.
Blows that stereotype Millennials are an audience of mindless sheep, out of the water.
Quote from: monkeylove on Dec 12, 2017, 12:31:10 AM
What are the chances that they know little or nothing about the latter?
Considering the results above, I would say the chances are quite high they are acquainted with the latter.
Interestingly, people under 18 rate both movies higher than the rest, and millenials actually rate the movie lower than (8.2) than boomers (8.5, 8.4). The difference isn't huge though. We must look for something else.
Quote from: Huggs on Dec 12, 2017, 04:47:19 AM
Formula's are important. They are a sure way of doing something correctly. The prequels have strayed too far from the formula. Yeah, things can get redundant, but things that work should just be left alone. This is what happens when you try to fix something that isn't broken. Now we're leaving the aliens behind, what on earth is fox thinking? I think Ridley is trying to say something significant with these films,Quotethe trouble is that he chose the wrong platform to say it on
. Pete's sake, I'm actually rooting for David now. At least he's wiping out the bland and annoying casts in these prequels, and he's just a darn likeable bad guy.
I think this is where all our trouble originates: expectations and trends. If Fox hadn't marketed A:C as another alien movie with corridor chase scenes etc., would this man right here feel Ridley was choosing the wrong platform? Even without changing anything in the movie itself, just making the audience expect something else would've made a huge difference if you ask me. You have to lead your audience to see what you want them to see with the marketing, and when you don't do that correctly there's of course going to be a backlash.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 12, 2017, 09:54:11 AM
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 11, 2017, 10:05:59 PM
Speaking of Aliens, this thread and the Covenant board in general lately reminds me a lot of the sad Aliens:Colonial Marines Gearbox forum where some posters senslessly defended A:CM no mather what the criticism was. Some of them were obvious trolls but here i'm not sure, it's either trolling or just plain delusion.
So if you like Covenant you are either a troll or delusional? how is that any different from accusing those that don't like it as pulse rifle loving meat heads?
Both arguments are ridiculously dumb.
Reecebomb is a troll. Everything he says is designed to piss you off. Don't respond to him.
Well, I for one love Covenant and you know what. I'm alright with that. Well in truth I like all of the Alien movies and eagerly await the next alien foray into the abyss.
Whether you like Covenant or not (and Prometheus), in an age of endless Star Wars and super hero flicks, there's really nothing like Prometheus and Covenant. They're doing things that no one expects. Of course they're also doing things that some don't want.
But at least they're not rehashing the same story.
Give me one last crazy Riddlez prequel.
Transform David into a giant pulsating vagina that shits out alien eggs.
Just do it.
:laugh:
Quote from: SM on Dec 12, 2017, 11:25:33 AM
Whether you like Covenant or not (and Prometheus), in an age of endless Star Wars and super hero flicks, there's really nothing like Prometheus and Covenant. They're doing things that no one expects. Of course they're also doing things that some don't want.
But at least they're not rehashing the same story.
This is so true.
Television is definitely getting the up on movies for me these days. The production budgets, directors and actors have all went up dramatically in the last 5-10 years. I'd much rather watch Stranger Things, West World, True Detective, GOT these days than sit down to another Tony Stark fest. Hearing good things about the new Star Wars , but then the last one got good reviews as well.
Another thing I've found myself doing is going back to the 80s and 90s and getting old sci-fi movies and watching those instead.
Not saying they are not making good movies these days, maybe I'm just gettin old or something!
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 11, 2017, 11:59:26 PM
Not exactly, although you are partly right in that it is irresistible to come to that conclusion, given that many haters of the prequel films appear to be Aliens fans. I could start a poll on this forum to prove my point, but that would most likely be viewed as trolling so I have not done so.
That ultimately means nothing towards your persistent insistence that it was due to a lack of Pulse Rifles and action, Queen, power-loader or whatever. Feel free to throw up your poll, I've nothing wrong with that - it just doesn't reinforce your point unless you want to go off and give a load of extra reasons, one of which includes "because it didn't have enough pulse rifle action."
I like Alien, Aliens and Alien 3. I find Prometheus a frustrating film to watch and I enjoyed Covenant until the Alien was shoehorned in. It has nothing to do with Pulse Rifles or power-loaders. In fact, the action sequences in Covenant were part of what I didn't enjoy in Covenant. And you know what, it's becoming boring and insulting to keep seeing that crop up as an excuse from the usual suspects. I might just live up to my evil dictator name and add it to the rules that that isn't allowed.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 12, 2017, 12:09:31 PM
Television is definitely getting the up on movies for me these days. The production budgets, directors and actors have all went up dramatically in the last 5-10 years. I'd much rather watch Stranger Things, West World, True Detective, GOT these days than sit down to another Tony Stark fest. Hearing good things about the new Star Wars , but then the last one got good reviews as well.
Another thing I've found myself doing is going back to the 80s and 90s and getting old sci-fi movies and watching those instead.
Not saying they are not making good movies these days, maybe I'm just gettin old or something!
This is also very true. It depresses me a little but Television is largely superior to Cinema now.
I've just started Mindhunter and its another excellent show.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 12, 2017, 12:09:09 PM
Quote from: SM on Dec 12, 2017, 11:25:33 AM
Whether you like Covenant or not (and Prometheus), in an age of endless Star Wars and super hero flicks, there's really nothing like Prometheus and Covenant. They're doing things that no one expects. Of course they're also doing things that some don't want.
But at least they're not rehashing the same story.
This is so true.
Yes and I love them for doing it. It also makes me feel great about taking those British literature classes in college. Totally worth the cash and effort. Who'd have thought you'd need a classical education to follow movies now a days.
Quote from: SM on Dec 12, 2017, 11:25:33 AM
But at least they're not rehashing the same story.
Really?
Ship (Nostromo, Prometheus, Covenant) lands on the planet (LV-426, LV-223, Engineers' planet) and its crew find out Alien stuff and shit happens. Three similar movies made by the same person.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Dec 12, 2017, 08:26:03 AM
Though Alien-covenant.com forum seems to stay focused on Covenant for the most part with the occasional mention of other films.
Probably because it's new; I doubt it'll be around in five years, for example (or at least, not as focused).
Yeah, that particular forum is just an arm of Scified. It was formerly prometheus-movie.com or something like that. It'll just rotate around to become alien-awakening.com or whatever if anything actually happens with that.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 12, 2017, 02:08:16 PM
Yeah, that particular forum is just an arm of Scified. It was formerly prometheus-movie.com or something like that. It'll just rotate around to become alien-awakening.com or whatever if anything actually happens with that.
Ahh okay thanks, I was wondering what happened to the prometheus forum.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 12, 2017, 11:14:16 AM
Interestingly, people under 18 rate both movies higher than the rest.....
Actually, I had done extensive research for a site project a few years ago...... http://www.scifimoviezone.com/scifibestbyyear.shtml (http://www.scifimoviezone.com/scifibestbyyear.shtml). Digging through various ratings sites, took a few months to compile it in spare time and I was surprised to find under 18 age bracket were very generous in their ratings for numerous old films. So much so, as I pulled up hundreds of movies, it seemed like almost too much. I'm talking a lot of 9.2's and higher.
It made me wonder if they are at that ratings stage of - every film is either a 10 or a 1, nothing in between. I'm not suggesting that age brackets' entire populace votes in that extreme. But I do wonder if a higher percentage of their age bracket votes that extreme more so than other age brackets.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 12, 2017, 12:09:31 PM
Television is definitely getting the up on movies for me these days. The production budgets, directors and actors have all went up dramatically in the last 5-10 years. I'd much rather watch Stranger Things, West World, True Detective, GOT these days than sit down to another Tony Stark fest. Hearing good things about the new Star Wars , but then the last one got good reviews as well.
Another thing I've found myself doing is going back to the 80s and 90s and getting old sci-fi movies and watching those instead.
Not saying they are not making good movies these days, maybe I'm just gettin old or something!
I agree but many of those TV-series aren't that much better if you ask me. Can't watch GoT anymore because the series is so painfully inferior to the books, had to stop West World after 1 episode because it sucked. I watched the finale of Stranger Things on TV and while I'm sure the series has its moments, the finale just looked generic and boring to me.
TV definitely seems to have the leg up on cinema though, as the skill of actors increase and quality effects become cheaper. It's just becoming a way more flexible medium for story telling.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Dec 12, 2017, 02:42:20 PM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 12, 2017, 02:08:16 PM
Yeah, that particular forum is just an arm of Scified. It was formerly prometheus-movie.com or something like that. It'll just rotate around to become alien-awakening.com or whatever if anything actually happens with that.
Ahh okay thanks, I was wondering what happened to the prometheus forum.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 12, 2017, 11:14:16 AM
Interestingly, people under 18 rate both movies higher than the rest.....
Actually, I had done extensive research for a site project a few years ago...... http://www.scifimoviezone.com/scifibestbyyear.shtml (http://www.scifimoviezone.com/scifibestbyyear.shtml). Digging through various ratings sites, took a few months to compile it in spare time and I was surprised to find under 18 age bracket were very generous in their ratings for numerous old films. So much so, as I pulled up hundreds of movies, it seemed like almost too much. I'm talking a lot of 9.2's and higher.
It made me wonder if they are at that ratings stage of - every film is either a 10 or a 1, nothing in between. I'm not suggesting that age brackets' entire populace votes in that extreme. But I do wonder if a higher percentage of their age bracket votes that extreme more so than other age brackets.
I guess there could be multiple reasons. For one, maybe the people under 18 having an imdb account are biased toward a certain subset interested in cinema as a whole, while the rest of people under 18 are out in the streets painting graffiti and smoking weed etc.
As people grow older, the likelihood of casual movie fans making an imdb account may rise.
Might also be due to social media effects being stronger on people under 18.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 12, 2017, 05:21:49 AM
Quote from: Deathbearer on Dec 12, 2017, 04:22:27 AM
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 12, 2017, 02:28:14 AM
I, too, am surprised that millennials like the action movie with explosions more.
Ah, the generational boogeyman I see. Classic. Watch out for that darned KISS, there's something not quite right about that Gene fellow.
I see you cut yourself on my post. Apologies.
More like a headache from reading the tired complaints of every grandpa to ever live. Your apology is accepted.
Quote from: Ingwar on Dec 12, 2017, 12:57:24 PM
Quote from: SM on Dec 12, 2017, 11:25:33 AM
But at least they're not rehashing the same story.
Really?
Ship (Nostromo, Prometheus, Covenant) lands on the planet (LV-426, LV-223, Engineers' planet) and its crew find out Alien stuff and shit happens. Three similar movies made by the same person.
Sure, if you want to be blithely broad, you can write off all the films as - some people in space encounter monsters.
But no one would be so deliberately ignorant, would they?
Quote from: SM on Dec 12, 2017, 07:58:37 PM
Quote from: Ingwar on Dec 12, 2017, 12:57:24 PM
Quote from: SM on Dec 12, 2017, 11:25:33 AM
But at least they're not rehashing the same story.
Really?
Ship (Nostromo, Prometheus, Covenant) lands on the planet (LV-426, LV-223, Engineers' planet) and its crew find out Alien stuff and shit happens. Three similar movies made by the same person.
Sure, if you want to be blithely broad, you can write off all the films as - some people in space encounter monsters.
But no one would be so deliberately ignorant, would they?
Actually they would. If you only listen to the latest podcast. Somebody mentioned my argument in it and I repeated it here.
Besides, it's not ignorance but the fact (regarding repeating the same formula). Maybe you are ignorant one who cannot see it?
Nah, I'm not the one trying to predictably wind people up by detailing Prometheus and Covenant with simple minded "shit happens" comments.
You have mistaken ignorance with winding people up (which I don't do anyway in this case). I just repeated what was said in the podcast. And yes, shit happens in Alien movies. Because it's sci-fi horror?
I've not listened to the podcast; I never mentioned the podcast; I don't care about the podcast.
Why are you trying deflect your shitposting onto the podcast?
And why you are attacking me because I'v got different opinion than yours?
I don't shit post. How many times I have to repeat myself? Somebody mentioned that during the podcast. I agree with it and I posted it here. If you call my comments as shit posts then you have exactly the same opinion about people who made that podcast.
Guys it's a movie
Yeah, I know but some people cannot handle that. And when you go different opinion it means you're: "shit posting".
Quote from: Ingwar on Dec 12, 2017, 08:36:16 PM
And why you are attacking me because I'v got different opinion than yours?
I don't shit post. How many times I have to repeat myself? Somebody mentioned that during the podcast. I agree with it and I posted it here. If you call my comments as shit posts then you have exactly the same opinion about people who made that podcast.
You posted a blithe dismissal. Where's the opinion? Where's the attempt at detailing why Prometheus and Covenant are rehashes of Alien? And every post since you've singularly failed to provide any substance to you claim. All you're capable of is "shit happens". How is that not shitposting? The fact someone else said it on podcast doesn't make it any less idiotic.
To be fair to whoever said it (as I can't remember), Ingwar is putting it across much more broadly than I remember it being spoken about. There are more specific and obvious similarities between the 3 narratives.
No one is suggesting otherwise.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 12, 2017, 09:18:17 PM
To be fair to whoever said it (as I can't remember), Ingwar is putting it across much more broadly than I remember it being spoken about. There are more specific and obvious similarities between the 3 narratives.
Absolutely there are, but they're not telling the same story over and over. Alien wasn't about an old man looking for eternal life or a robot trying to wipe out his creators.
Of course. I don't think I'd personally go as far as to say the three films were "telling the same story over and over." I can't remember that conversation completely anyway, but if that was what was said and it was me I would retract that. I would just say that they're all structurally quite similar. There are more nuanced and different depths within those narratives that make them very different.
I'm not even sure the structures are that similar. Perhaps you could make an argument that them trying to escape in Covenant, then having obstacles thrown in their way is like them trying to evac on the Narcissus. But there are similarities to Aluens in that they're going to meet a ship that's coming to pick them up. I started exploring the different timings of events in each film ages ago. Must get around to finishing it.
I've never said they are saying the same story. They're similar though. As Hicks said, they're similar in structure: ship lands on the planet and crew find out alien stuff and bad things start to happen. Those three movies, made by the same person, repeat that formula. We've got even three crashed juggernauts in each one of them, not to mention that the main protagonists are always female, who in two cases, blast alien into space.
Broadly speaking all the Alien movies are the same story but I find every one to be pretty unique.
It's not just about the differences in story or the subtext, For me it all comes down to atmosphere and the vibe of the film. I relate emotionally very differently to all six movies and that's what makes them so unique to me.
The only one of the six I actually dislike is resurrection and that's because of the cartoony, comic book feel not because I think it's bad. It just wasn't for me.
Quote from: Ingwar on Dec 12, 2017, 09:44:23 PM
I've never said they are saying the same story. They're similar though. As Hicks said, they're similar in structure: ship lands on the planet and crew find out alien stuff and bad things start to happen. Those three movies, made by the same person, repeat that formula. We've got even three crashed juggernauts in each one of them, not to mention that the main protagonists are always female.
And yet, still not rehashing the same story.
Not in 100% but there is so much alike stuff in those 3 that it's annoying.
There's always a ship. Doesn't matter if it's scientific, colony or star-freighter. In two put of three cases ship detects transmission and in once case it's a message (was it?).
Ship lands on the planet. They investigate and ...horror starts.
And there's always an evil android (at least who got Walter) and heroine who blasts alien into space.
I like Prometheus and Covenant no matter how frustrating there are (and they are) but repeating the same formula is lazy.
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 12, 2017, 08:39:50 PM
Guys it's a movie
:laugh:
One of those rare moments when the comment posted fits perfectly with the avatar (the smiling Ed Harris).
Quote from: Ingwar on Dec 12, 2017, 09:51:38 PM
Not in 100% but there is so much alike stuff in those 3 that it's annoying.
There's always a ship. Doesn't matter if it's scientific, colony or star-freighter. In two put of three cases ship detects transmission and in once case it's a message (was it?).
Ship lands on the planet. They investigate and ...horror starts.
And there's always an evil android (at least who got Walter) and heroine who blasts alien into space.
I like Prometheus and Covenant no matter how frustrating there are (and they are) but repeating the same formula is lazy.
But those things are the connective tissue of the series. Thats kind of how franchise movies work. Beneath those familiar beats are very different stories.
"I think this is where all our trouble originates: expectations and trends. If Fox hadn't marketed A:C as another alien movie with corridor chase scenes etc., would this man right here feel Ridley was choosing the wrong platform?"
Exactly. Covenant had no business having the word Alien in the title at all. It felt nothing like an Alien film, although it somewhat seemed like it could be from some of the trailers I saw. Whenever the xenomorph was featured, I couldn't help feeling it was a included briefly as some sort of "here you go, now shut up" to the fans. That, and the creature was used pitifully. Attacking an obviously mechanical device like it's another biological creature? And in the daylight no less, I just couldn't believe it. It felt like Ridley was so annoyed at having to include an Alien in a movie called Alien Covenant, that he just wanted to make them look stupid as dirt and make their encounters as boring, bland, and short as possible so maybe folks would say, "yeah, he's right the Alien's cooked so let's leave it behind". Between his "use" of the alien in covenant and his comments regarding the creature since, I just think he's stuck squarely in Blade Runner mode and he using the only other viable avenue to make his A.I. masterpiece. Unless of course there are xeno's on mars and Matt Damon is available for work.
As for the whole "covenant haters are Aliens fans" thing, let me just say that Aliens is not my favorite of the films. I personally rank them 3,1,2,4. With Alien 3 just barely edging out the original due to it's characters and the dark tone fincher gave it. Aliens was the first of the films that I ever saw, and therefore holds a special place in my heart, but I personally prefer a lone yet powerful Alien vs a small group of reasonably intelligent and grossly unprepared people. I don't care for pulse rifles or power loaders in these films, and wouldn't cry if we never see them again. The characters in the prequel films have been idiots of the highest order, and this alone gives the movies a cheap chainsaw massacre feel. I also feel the all-important tension is gone. The search for the chestburster from the first film, the initial contact in med-lab from Aliens, with the slow build up to Newts first appearance are all good examples of the quality and tension of the original movies. The whole idea of "Something is out there, and it's headed this way", is scary. What did we get in covenant? Aliens in the daylight and seeing the neomorph and xenomorph in full view roaming along.
It obviously wasn't the movie he wanted to make. And I just have to wonder, when it comes to the whole "creature being cooked" thing. Why so averse to it's use? It's an amazing and iconic villain, and it bears some responsibility for Ridley being as famous as he is. They still make James Bond movies for crying out loud, and last I checked, skyfall is considered one of the best bond movies ever made. There's always a story to be told. But for now, many of the elements that make the films so special are gone. But we do get a lot of nicely framed shots of fassbender in a well-shot artificial human interest piece. Alittle something for the ladies I suppose.
The core of Alien was always about symbolizing the unknown mystery of space, and the lurking horrors that lie within it. That their is hostile life that exists that is far more dangerous and sophisticated than humanities darkest nightmares could conceive. The prequels neutered their existence as mad science experiments that we helped create ruined the entire mystique of them. Their origin did not need to be tied to humanity, nor did having another evil A.I. obsess over them. It's a retread of the first Alien film with the character of Ash, but more gratuitous. The character of Bishop was far more interesting than anything we've seen of David by far.
QuoteIt felt nothing like an Alien film
What is an Alien film supposed to feel like?
Quote from: SM on Dec 12, 2017, 09:40:59 PM
I'm not even sure the structures are that similar. Perhaps you could make an argument that them trying to escape in Covenant, then having obstacles thrown in their way is like them trying to evac on the Narcissus. But there are similarities to Aluens in that they're going to meet a ship that's coming to pick them up. I started exploring the different timings of events in each film ages ago. Must get around to finishing it.
I also did a bit of this time stamp exploring, but only between Alien and Covenant. I didn't go too far either. Might be something worth looking at.
Quote from: SM on Dec 12, 2017, 11:01:31 PM
QuoteIt felt nothing like an Alien film
What is an Alien film supposed to feel like?
A haunted house movie set in space.
Quote from: genocyber on Dec 12, 2017, 11:00:11 PM
The core of Alien was always about symbolizing the unknown mystery of space, and the lurking horrors that lie within it. That their is hostile life that exists that is far more dangerous and sophisticated than humanities darkest nightmares could conceive. The prequels neutered their existence as mad science experiments that we helped create ruined the entire mystique of them. Their origin did not need to be tied to humanity, nor did having another evil A.I. obsess over them. It's a retread of the first Alien film with the character of Ash, but more gratuitous. The character of Bishop was far more interesting than anything we've seen of David by far.
Ok, so in other words you want this:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhorrornews.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F07%2FIt-The-Terror-from-Beyond-Space-1958-Movie-6.jpg&hash=c5bb2a01138686ecb300a26f96520734475fd603)
That's the creature from
It! The Terror From Beyond Space (1958)"unknown mystery" -check
"hostile life" -check
"dangerous and sophisticated" -check
"origin not tied to humanity" -check
"nothing to do with A.I." -check
Quote from: genocyber on Dec 12, 2017, 11:42:09 PM
Quote from: SM on Dec 12, 2017, 11:01:31 PM
QuoteIt felt nothing like an Alien film
What is an Alien film supposed to feel like?
A haunted house movie set in space.
Covenant was a haunted house movie on an Alien planet.
That was probably one of David's long lost creations...
"What is an Alien film supposed to feel like?"
Well, this is merely my opinion. But, here goes.
Long Version: In the distant future, moderate to decently intelligent human beings on board a large ship/station (nostromo/sevastapol) or futuristic installation (not bedrock or cavemanville) encounter a dormant alien organism and become infected. They spend the entirety of the film being hunted by a rapidly evolving creature of a very hostile nature that is rarely shown. Its intelligence and movements are not shown and rarely discussed, and it avoids the light at all costs. In the style of "ten little Indians" the group of humans is whittled down to main characters, culminating in a slow-building showdown between the last human survivor or survivors and the creature itself. It is not necessary that any of the cast survives the film. Like jaws, it is the absence of the creature that creates the tension. The audience identifies with the characters, together in one room, while somewhere out there, something horrifying is building its home and thinking of ways and opportunities to violently destroy. The only A.I. present is of little to moderate use, and any hostile tendencies are quickly resolved and not the focal point of the film. It doesn't wind up fighting an upgraded version of itself (terminator) in a room full of stone and torches (scorpion king). There are no religious humanoid civilizations, no robed figures, no foliage, no planet full of questionable events and sights that are never questioned by the cast. etc. etc. It is teeth and metal and darkness.
Short Version: Well written haunted house film in space. There is no grandiose philosophical mission statement on who we are or where we are headed technologically or as a society. The characters are realistically intelligent and relatable. The film actually features the creature and it is taken seriously. It is a frighteningly dark and uncompromising depiction of violent interstellar contact with a hostile alien species, not the napoleanic aspirations of an over-eloquent and bisexual android. It is not the "David" show. It is an alien movie.
That being said, if these awful prequels must continue then I'm rooting for David and I hope he conquers the universe. Judging by what we've seen so far, the human species in these movies has become truly stupid and mean spirited, and must not be allowed to spread beyond the earth. All hail the king.
So, the same thing over and over?
Quote from: SM on Dec 13, 2017, 01:04:45 AM
So, the same thing over and over?
Have we considered the possibility that this franchise doesn't need more films? That the story is over and there's nothing else they can do with it? They aren't ever going to top the first two films. It's not happening. Now it's about philosophy and androids instead of aliens and honestly I'm not sure how we got to that.
Quote from: Deathbearer on Dec 13, 2017, 01:14:09 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 13, 2017, 01:04:45 AM
So, the same thing over and over?
Have we considered the possibility that this franchise doesn't need more films?
Then why do you whine for more pulse rifles, action sequences, and Alien Queens all the time?
Unless a series sets up sequels that are required to finish a story, no movie needs any sequel.
Doesn't mean they shouldn't make them though.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 13, 2017, 01:26:51 AM
Quote from: Deathbearer on Dec 13, 2017, 01:14:09 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 13, 2017, 01:04:45 AM
So, the same thing over and over?
Have we considered the possibility that this franchise doesn't need more films?
Then why do you whine for more pulse rifles, action sequences, and Alien Queens all the time?
I have never whined for this. It's okay, you probably didn't notice since you gotta keep watching over your shoulder to make sure that those nasty Aliens-loving Millennials don't get you.
Quote from: SM on Dec 13, 2017, 01:30:43 AM
Doesn't mean they shouldn't make them though.
Alien: Resurrection might beg to differ
"So, the same thing over and over? "
Not always. Prometheus didn't work. So they did it again, only worse. But there's a reason the first 2 or 3 films are as enjoyable and respected as they are. They had the right formula and they followed it. The proof as they say, is in the pudding. Alien and Aliens vs. Prometheus and Covenant. It's so one sided it's cruel. Sometimes a good rhythm is found, and it's not the end of the world if something stays the same. Quite frankly, as bad as these films are getting, I think they need to leave well enough alone at this point. The original films will never be topped, and cannot be equaled because every space movie has to be "interstellar" now, and screw the old ways.
Gibson's Alien 3 or Fincher's Alien 3 probably should have been considered the final word. But I'm just a person with their own opinion and a firm believer in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" school of thought. Gracious, the terminator series lost me when Arnold became the good guy. How and why that was allowed I'll never know. T2 was okay, but look at the mess that series has been in ever since.
The Alien prequels are like that. Prometheus was like Salvation, darker and different. Covenant was like Genisys, the android fight scene alone, geez. Which leaves the next Alien to be like T3, god help us all.
Anyone else remember Scott Weiland's solo album? Yeah, that's the David saga. Somebody with a desire to make money at Fox needs to tell Ridley what that couple in Planes Trains and Automobiles said, "You're going the wrong way".
Quote from: Deathbearer on Dec 13, 2017, 01:43:22 AM
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 13, 2017, 01:26:51 AM
Quote from: Deathbearer on Dec 13, 2017, 01:14:09 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 13, 2017, 01:04:45 AM
So, the same thing over and over?
Have we considered the possibility that this franchise doesn't need more films?
Then why do you whine for more pulse rifles, action sequences, and Alien Queens all the time?
I have never whined for this. It's okay, you probably didn't notice since you gotta keep watching over your shoulder to make sure that those nasty Aliens-loving Millennials don't get you.
I'm an "Aliens-loving millennial," you nincompoop; however, I don't want a remake of it.
Quote from: Huggs on Dec 13, 2017, 01:48:29 AM
The Alien prequels are like that. Prometheus was like Salvation, darker and different. Covenant was like Genisys, the android fight scene alone, geez. Which leaves the next Alien to be like T3, god help us all.
Anyone else remember Scott Weiland's solo album? Yeah, that's the David saga. Somebody with a desire to make money at Fox needs to tell Ridley what that couple in Planes Trains and Automobiles said, "You're going the wrong way".
Opinions. You have bad ones.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 13, 2017, 01:51:51 AM
Quote from: Deathbearer on Dec 13, 2017, 01:43:22 AM
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 13, 2017, 01:26:51 AM
Quote from: Deathbearer on Dec 13, 2017, 01:14:09 AM
Quote from: SM on Dec 13, 2017, 01:04:45 AM
So, the same thing over and over?
Have we considered the possibility that this franchise doesn't need more films?
Then why do you whine for more pulse rifles, action sequences, and Alien Queens all the time?
I have never whined for this. It's okay, you probably didn't notice since you gotta keep watching over your shoulder to make sure that those nasty Aliens-loving Millennials don't get you.
I'm an "Aliens-loving millennial," you nincompoop; however, I don't want a remake of it.
Neither do I grandpa, so it looks like we can agree on something after all.
As shocking as this may seem there are other reasons to dislike Covenant besides a distinct lack of pulse rifles and Hudsons.
Then why do you want Blomkamp's film made, grandpa?
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 13, 2017, 02:04:03 AM
Then why do you want Blomkamp's film made, grandpa?
I don't care if it gets made or not. Good try though, might have worked on someone else.
"Opinions. You have bad ones"
That's cool. I respect your opinion as well. But unfortunately, the reaction to Prometheus was not completely positive, and covenant didn't break any box office/applause records. It's getting difficult to call this the right financial and literary path for the Alien universe. Movie making is a business after all.
Quote from: Huggs on Dec 13, 2017, 02:10:23 AM
"Opinions. You have bad ones"
That's cool. I respect your opinion as well. But unfortunately, the reaction to Prometheus was not completely positive, and covenant didn't break any box office/applause records. It's getting difficult to call this the right financial and literary path for the Alien universe. Movie making is a business after all.
You conveniently ignore the part where both made a profit for the studio.
Quote from: Deathbearer on Dec 13, 2017, 02:07:54 AM
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 13, 2017, 02:04:03 AM
Then why do you want Blomkamp's film made, grandpa?
I don't care if it gets made or not. Good try though, might have worked on someone else.
So now you're changing your opinion on Blomkamp's film? I am known to be persuasive. ;D
QuoteNot always. Prometheus didn't work. So they did it again, only worse.
The majority would beg to differ, which would tend to indicate that the majority don't want movie after movie of 'well written haunted house film in space'.
That and Aliens wasn't really a haunted house and Alien 3 wasn't terribly well written.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 12, 2017, 11:14:16 AM
Interestingly, people under 18 rate both movies higher than the rest, and millenials actually rate the movie lower than (8.2) than oomers (8.5, 8.4). The difference isn't huge though. We must look for something else.
I'd see the same point if the data can be broken down by region, if the age of the ones giving the ratings can be verified, if we can see what percentage of those who saw the last two movies saw the first two, etc.
All I know for now is that the foreign share of revenues for A:C is almost 70 pct and similar to the previous three movies. For the first two movies, it was the other way round.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 13, 2017, 02:21:54 AM
Quote from: Huggs on Dec 13, 2017, 02:10:23 AM
"Opinions. You have bad ones"
That's cool. I respect your opinion as well. But unfortunately, the reaction to Prometheus was not completely positive, and covenant didn't break any box office/applause records. It's getting difficult to call this the right financial and literary path for the Alien universe. Movie making is a business after all.
You conveniently ignore the part where both made a profit for the studio.
Quote from: Deathbearer on Dec 13, 2017, 02:07:54 AM
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 13, 2017, 02:04:03 AM
Then why do you want Blomkamp's film made, grandpa?
I don't care if it gets made or not. Good try though, might have worked on someone else.
So now you're changing your opinion on Blomkamp's film? I am known to be persuasive. ;D
Don't give yourself too much credit, it was Scott that convinced me the beast is cooked.
The salt in this thread is too much, Hicks nuke it from orbit please.
Quite.
Funny, you get into discussions about divisive things like this, but then you can't help but notice how many people agree about the quality of the original movies. That they could be enjoyable to so many people with such differing opinions about the art of filmmaking is a testament to the hard work that was put into them and how cool they were and still are.
Quote from: Deathbearer on Dec 13, 2017, 02:07:54 AM
Don't give yourself too much credit, it was Scott that convinced me the beast is cooked.
Me too, which is why the focus on A.I. creating bioweapons is so much more interesting. Blomkamp's film was just going to be a retread of xenomorphs chasing marines. I'm glad we've found common ground.
Prometheus and Alien Covenant I would argue are better than Alien and Aliens.
There's a reason why all this hate for Ridley's prequel films has come out of the woodwork. Prometheus had a mixed critical reception, yes, but was still a huge box office success. The promise of another movie like Aliens appears to have certain segments of the population satisfied with nothing but this coming to fruition.
This encapsulates it all, really:
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cAQGAOPu1k0/hqdefault.jpg)
Not that everyone is like that, but if you don't acknowledge this trend you are basically ignoring the elephant.
Perhaps something like this, but involving the previous
Alien movies and foreign viewers, especially those from Asia:
Millennials don't really care about classic movies (https://nypost.com/2017/08/16/millennials-dont-really-care-about-classic-movies/)
QuoteA new survey polling 1,000 millennials and 1,000 Americans over the age of 50 conducted by FYE.com, reveals that looking back into the history of cinema isn't the preference of youth today, with millennials exponentially more likely to have binged on films of the last 15 years than on classics from bygone eras.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 13, 2017, 02:28:33 AM
Quote from: Deathbearer on Dec 13, 2017, 02:07:54 AM
Don't give yourself too much credit, it was Scott that convinced me the beast is cooked.
Me too, which is why the focus on A.I. creating bioweapons is so much more interesting.
Too bad an A.I.'s God complex is the last thing I wanted from an Alien movie.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 13, 2017, 12:24:53 AM
Quote from: genocyber on Dec 12, 2017, 11:00:11 PM
The core of Alien was always about symbolizing the unknown mystery of space, and the lurking horrors that lie within it. That their is hostile life that exists that is far more dangerous and sophisticated than humanities darkest nightmares could conceive. The prequels neutered their existence as mad science experiments that we helped create ruined the entire mystique of them. Their origin did not need to be tied to humanity, nor did having another evil A.I. obsess over them. It's a retread of the first Alien film with the character of Ash, but more gratuitous. The character of Bishop was far more interesting than anything we've seen of David by far.
Ok, so in other words you want this:
http://horrornews.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/It-The-Terror-from-Beyond-Space-1958-Movie-6.jpg
That's the creature from It! The Terror From Beyond Space (1958)
"unknown mystery" -check
"hostile life" -check
"dangerous and sophisticated" -check
"origin not tied to humanity" -check
"nothing to do with A.I." -check
Sounds like a winner to me. Yes.
Lots of handbags flying about in here eh!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F49.media.tumblr.com%2F0ed0fa17312d516fc2a4736368ead446%2Ftumblr_nfkaldeVZv1u0k6deo2_250.gif&hash=ab217b201b8fdef8c47861e854073565294efd4e)
The good news is there's only 2-3 people on here that seem to take personal offense to any criticism, constructive or otherwise, to Scott's prequels. The bad news is they flood the comment sections relentlessly so there might as well be 100 of them.
The prequels are fine in their own way, just like the original films are fine in theirs. I'm sure when those came out pre-internet, there was similar backlash, it just wasn't as apparent. I'm reserving judgment until the final film gets released, because the way that's handled can have a retroactive effect on the previous two.
Just to play devil's advocate, why is it that any detractors of the prequels are automatically proponents of Neill Blomkamp?
Also, why do certain people act like they know exactly what Blomkamp's sequel was going to be about in relation to the continuous referencing of queens, pulse rifles, power loaders, etc? I wasn't aware that there was a script floating around the internet, and judging from Ridley's comments, neither was he.
All I saw was some preliminary concept art that was created before the guy was even officially commissioned to work. Between pulse rifle accusations, check out the very well-stocked concept art gallery for A:C on this site and compare the art to how much we actually saw in the finished movie.
What it really should have had, was a Power Loader with - pulse rifles attached to the arms. Instant classic.
I wish Ridley Scott would at least weaken the androids.
The fight between David vs. Walter was similar to T-800 vs. T-1000
Do you remember Parker almost decapitating Ash with an extinguisher? Ash should take much more damage, considering him being a newer android than Walter, not even talking about David.
Nothing makes sense what Riddles does lately. Best director of our time?
Quote from: Highland on Dec 13, 2017, 06:26:48 AM
Lots of handbags flying about in here eh!
That's been the Covenant threads since its release. I can't recall one news article related to Covenant that didn't devolve into a playground fight over whether it's good or not.
Quote from: AD on Dec 13, 2017, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 13, 2017, 06:26:48 AM
Lots of handbags flying about in here eh!
That's been the Covenant threads since its release. I can't recall one news article related to Covenant that didn't devolve into a playground fight over whether it's good or not.
Therein lies the problem with Covenant. Too many folks arguing over if it was good or not. There are so few discussions regarding symbolism and theory. Prometheus had a bit of arguing over certain aspects of the film, however, the bulk of conversations had about the film were usually about some sort of detail deconstruction... Be it the engineer murals in the urn room, the bas relief of the Deacon in the urn room, what exactly the accelerant (black too) was, were the engineers on LV226 a different faction versus the ones we saw at the beginning, etc etc... See where I'm going? Covenant has only really lead to conversations about it being "good" or bad and really just making comparisons to previous films to justify personal feelings about the film as a whole. Prometheus was questioned for the better part of 5 years after until the release of Covenant.
There was a very big difference between these two films and their outcome of output for years after from fans.
Covenant has only been out 7 months.
Quote from: DorkiDori on Dec 13, 2017, 07:43:01 PM
Therein lies the problem with Covenant. Too many folks arguing over if it was good or not. There are so few discussions regarding symbolism and theory.
What do you think of the symbolism and the theories for Alien Covenant?
Quote from: Denton Smalls on Dec 13, 2017, 10:27:32 AM
The good news is there's only 2-3 people on here that seem to take personal offense to any criticism, constructive or otherwise, to Scott's prequels. The bad news is they flood the comment sections relentlessly so there might as well be 100 of them.
This is a joke, right? Vocally, these forums are overwhelmingly against Scott's prequels. Look at the polls, though; most people here like Prometheus and Covenant.
Not sure where 'overwhelming' comes from. I see that most people like them but aren't blind to the faults. Which is reflected in the polls. Of course some relentlessly shit can it and someone defend it no matter the criticism. While often prolific, they're at the extremes and in the minority.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Dec 13, 2017, 08:55:12 PM
Quote from: DorkiDori on Dec 13, 2017, 07:43:01 PM
Therein lies the problem with Covenant. Too many folks arguing over if it was good or not. There are so few discussions regarding symbolism and theory.
What do you think of the symbolism and the theories for Alien Covenant?
Honestly to me there wasn't much really. It was all pretty straight forward outside of Davids Lab and what transpired between Shaw and David during their trip aaaaand what exactly happened to Shaw. I do realize "The Crossing" and "Advent" existed to explain some of what went on. But honestly, that entire 10 years deserves its own film (or book... Like we SHOULDVE gotten). Its a story all unto itself that could've been very creepy and very disturbing (much like an actual Alien film).
The first movie had a lot of open ended questions which made it fun. Covenant was pretty much cleaned up with the short film "Advent". Outside of the Shaw/David arc, the film didn't really create as many questions or conversations that Prometheus did.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 13, 2017, 08:57:36 PM
Quote from: Denton Smalls on Dec 13, 2017, 10:27:32 AM
The good news is there's only 2-3 people on here that seem to take personal offense to any criticism, constructive or otherwise, to Scott's prequels. The bad news is they flood the comment sections relentlessly so there might as well be 100 of them.
This is a joke, right? Vocally, these forums are overwhelmingly against Scott's prequels. Look at the polls, though; most people here like Prometheus and Covenant.
It can certainly appear that the forums are overwhelmingly against Scott's prequels, if you approach the topic on the defensive. An objective view would reveal that it's not the case.
I'm glad most people apparently like both prequels. That's how more are made. I'd rather read about and discuss future films for better of worse, rather than not have any Alien films to talk about at all.
Quote from: DorkiDori on Dec 13, 2017, 09:55:54 PM
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Dec 13, 2017, 08:55:12 PM
Quote from: DorkiDori on Dec 13, 2017, 07:43:01 PM
There are so few discussions regarding symbolism and theory.
What do you think of the symbolism and the theories for Alien Covenant?
Honestly to me there wasn't much really.
Only speculating, perhaps then that is why there are so few discussions regarding symbolism and theory for Alien Covenant? Others possibly feel the same way you do. Mystery solved? Maybe, maybe not.
At best, the prequels are average, i.e., given ratings and revenues. Given that, it's obvious another movie will have to be much better.
Quote from: monkeylove on Dec 14, 2017, 07:12:54 AM
At best, the prequels are average, i.e., given ratings and revenues. Given that, it's obvious another movie will have to be much better.
I think it will take some time for the prequels to be fully appreciated for what they are, much like Alien 3's popularity, which was pretty low at the time of release, but has risen to cult status over time.
Quote from: Denton Smalls on Dec 14, 2017, 10:26:21 AM
Quote from: monkeylove on Dec 14, 2017, 07:12:54 AM
At best, the prequels are average, i.e., given ratings and revenues. Given that, it's obvious another movie will have to be much better.
I think it will take some time for the prequels to be fully appreciated for what they are, much like Alien 3's popularity, which was pretty low at the time of release, but has risen to cult status over time.
I agree. One of the things that will help it will be Fassbender's dual role as Walter and David.
This article talks about how Fassbender deserves Oscar consideration due to his performance. http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/michael-fassbender-alien-covenant-best-actor-1201907210/
Quote from: 0321recon on Dec 14, 2017, 02:32:53 PM
Quote from: Denton Smalls on Dec 14, 2017, 10:26:21 AM
Quote from: monkeylove on Dec 14, 2017, 07:12:54 AM
At best, the prequels are average, i.e., given ratings and revenues. Given that, it's obvious another movie will have to be much better.
I think it will take some time for the prequels to be fully appreciated for what they are, much like Alien 3's popularity, which was pretty low at the time of release, but has risen to cult status over time.
I agree. One of the things that will help it will be Fassbender's dual role as Walter and David.
This article talks about how Fassbender deserves Oscar consideration due to his performance. http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/michael-fassbender-alien-covenant-best-actor-1201907210/
That was an excellent read. I wouldn't be surprised if Fassbender gets nominated by the Academy, at least.
That's simply not going to happen.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 14, 2017, 07:11:44 PM
That's simply not going to happen.
Yeah, I know, the dual role thing.
Not because of that lol.
There were just many male performances this year that were superior than David and Walter. And if Fassbender didn't even get nominated for his superior Prometheus-David 8 performance...
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 14, 2017, 10:11:55 PM
There were just many male performances this year that were superior than David and Walter.
What male performances this year do you think were more superior?
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 14, 2017, 10:11:55 PM
Not because of that lol.
There were just many male performances this year that were superior than David and Walter. And if Fassbender didn't even get nominated for his superior Prometheus-David 8 performance...
Yeah if Fassbender was going to get awards it would've been for Prometheus.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 14, 2017, 10:11:55 PM
Not because of that lol.
There were just many male performances this year that were superior than David and Walter. And if Fassbender didn't even get nominated for his superior Prometheus-David 8 performance...
His performance was much more central to Covenant (therefore better) than Prometheus. If he were to get nominated for the David character, it would for Covenant.
If the "When you close your eyes, do you dream of me?" line doesn't cash in an Oscar nomination, you can pretty much assume the game's rigged, although we already knew that beforehand.
Fassbender is no stranger to Oscar nominations and he was nominated and / or won multiple Best Actor / Best Supporting Actor awards from other award organizations for Prometheus, so it wouldn't be a shocker if his Covenant performance was at least considered by those who place nominations for the Oscars.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Dec 14, 2017, 10:16:17 PM
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 14, 2017, 10:11:55 PM
There were just many male performances this year that were superior than David and Walter.
What male performances this year do you think were more superior?
This is not that kind of conversation.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 14, 2017, 10:52:16 PM
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 14, 2017, 10:11:55 PM
Not because of that lol.
There were just many male performances this year that were superior than David and Walter. And if Fassbender didn't even get nominated for his superior Prometheus-David 8 performance...
His performance was much more central to Covenant (therefore better) than Prometheus. If he were to get nominated for the David character, it would for Covenant.
lol wut? Central = better? That's not how life works.
I thought there was much more subtlety and ambiguity in his Prometheus performance.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 14, 2017, 11:21:05 PM
This is not that kind of conversation.
Quite the opposite, it's very much related to Fassbender's Covenant performance in comparison to other actor's performances. But it seems you prefer not to elaborate, so question withdrawn to you.
However, the question is still open to others who might feel a little more cooperative to tackle this very much related question.
Quote from: SM on Dec 14, 2017, 11:26:10 PM
I thought there was much more subtlety and ambiguity in his Prometheus performance.
Absolutely. Prometheus David was morally gray and paradoxical, Walter and David in Covenant were clear cut.
Covenant: "idle hands make the devil's workshop"
Prometheus' version of that line would've simply been "idle hands..."
Lindelof had his heart in the correct place.
The reason Prometheus David is different to Covenant David is something called "character development".
Character development is overrated.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 14, 2017, 11:51:32 PM
The reason Prometheus David is different to Covenant David is something called "character development".
Cool, I magically like his Covenant David performance now!
:laugh:
Like it or not, at least he tried something different instead of just repeating what he did in Prometheus.
But by your posts it's obvious you don't like the film anyway.
There's a lot of it I love. The opening sequence is magic, Billy Crudup & Carmen Ejogo & Amy Seimetz are all amazing, the score is unsettling, the Engineer bombing sequence is amazing, the David & Walter fight is awesome, the backburster sequence is great stuff(but not as strong as Kane's bursting or Shaw's C-section), the solar sail repair sequence is marvelous, all of the shots of the Covenant gliding through space are breathtaking.
Never has an ALIEN Alien film been so big and breathtaking(Prometheus I don't include because it's so radically different)... maybe the AvP flashback, or the Betty docking on the Auriga in Resurrection, or that wide Ripley 8 jump as she frantically ran.
Stop confusing people with your differentiated opinion.
sukkzz
Quote from: Denton Smalls on Dec 14, 2017, 10:26:21 AM
I think it will take some time for the prequels to be fully appreciated for what they are, much like Alien 3's popularity, which was pretty low at the time of release, but has risen to cult status over time.
It's probably because of other film versions of
Alien 3. These two prequels, though, need major rewrites.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 14, 2017, 10:52:16 PM
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 14, 2017, 10:11:55 PM
Not because of that lol.
There were just many male performances this year that were superior than David and Walter. And if Fassbender didn't even get nominated for his superior Prometheus-David 8 performance...
His performance was much more central to Covenant (therefore better) than Prometheus. If he were to get nominated for the David character, it would for Covenant.
lol wut? Central = better? That's not how life works.
[/quote]
You're evidently not too bright.
That's one thing you're right about.
Quote from: monkeylove on Dec 15, 2017, 02:45:37 AM
Quote from: Denton Smalls on Dec 14, 2017, 10:26:21 AM
I think it will take some time for the prequels to be fully appreciated for what they are, much like Alien 3's popularity, which was pretty low at the time of release, but has risen to cult status over time.
It's probably because of other film versions of Alien 3. These two prequels, though, need major rewrites.
That's not entirely true. Alien 3 was being re-appraised even before the Assembly Cut was released in 2003.
"Ironically, it is when Ripley discovers that she is harboring the new Alien Queen inside her—essentially her death warrant—that she is able to pull herself together and find a certain degree of purpose in what remains of her life. These are emotional beats that are more complex than the sort that are normally found in the main character of a big-budget sequel and Weaver plays all of them beautifully—she may have been nominated for "Aliens" but her performance here is arguably better.
Whatever one may think about "Alien 3" and "Alien Resurrection," they were works of vision and ambition by serious-minded filmmakers that had the misfortune to follow in the footsteps of two of the greatest films of their type and wound up to a great extent suffering from the impossibly high expectations of moviegoers."......rogerebert.com
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 14, 2017, 11:57:59 PM
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 14, 2017, 11:51:32 PM
The reason Prometheus David is different to Covenant David is something called "character development".
Cool, I magically like his Covenant David performance now!
And there was me thinking he was just a robot.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Dec 15, 2017, 07:25:55 AM
"Ironically, it is when Ripley discovers that she is harboring the new Alien Queen inside her—essentially her death warrant—that she is able to pull herself together and find a certain degree of purpose in what remains of her life. These are emotional beats that are more complex than the sort that are normally found in the main character of a big-budget sequel and Weaver plays all of them beautifully—she may have been nominated for "Aliens" but her performance here is arguably better.
Whatever one may think about "Alien 3" and "Alien Resurrection," they were works of vision and ambition by serious-minded filmmakers that had the misfortune to follow in the footsteps of two of the greatest films of their type and wound up to a great extent suffering from the impossibly high expectations of moviegoers."......rogerebert.com
This is so good. Really flosses my brain from all the negative fanboy stuff. 3 is great, Res is what it is. Sigourney's reign of the character is a very special thing that definitely needs another round, whether it's Chappie or Blade Runner. Mouse house will probably get it right.
And I actually think Awakening might get the budget it deserves. People needed to stop blaming Ridley and put the heat on Rupert Murdoch. Have you watched his news channel? He's captured Mick Jagger's wife! All this Disney aquisition shit is so predictable that I bet that big layout was part of a big Hollywood plan laid out years ago. The Xenomorph has been at MGM Studios for a long time...
http://omegaunderground.com/2017/12/14/fox-plans-shoot-ridley-scotts-alien-awakening-next-summer/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
QuoteOmega Underground had learned that at one time Fox was eyeing a Summer 2018 shoot for Scott's Awakening and now we have more information to support that along with Prometheus/Covenant's Mark Huffam and Scott Free's Michael Pruss named as producers.
"At one time."
QuoteQuote from: Alionic on Dec 15, 2017, 04:22:35 AM
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 14, 2017, 10:52:16 PM
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 14, 2017, 10:11:55 PM
Not because of that lol.
There were just many male performances this year that were superior than David and Walter. And if Fassbender didn't even get nominated for his superior Prometheus-David 8 performance...
His performance was much more central to Covenant (therefore better) than Prometheus. If he were to get nominated for the David character, it would for Covenant.
lol wut? Central = better? That's not how life works.
You're evidently not too bright.
How about you both tone it down and act like adults interacting with other adults in a mature fashion? I'm bored of having to remind you BSG and you've been dropping on the radar for the same reasons lately, Alionic. Can we just act like grown-up's please. It's boring when I have to make comments like this. Thanks. :)
Anyway, BSG isn't wrong. Though I loved Fassbender and David in both Prometheus and Covenant, central doesn't automatically equate to better.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 15, 2017, 09:06:36 AM
http://omegaunderground.com/2017/12/14/fox-plans-shoot-ridley-scotts-alien-awakening-next-summer/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
QuoteOmega Underground had learned that at one time Fox was eyeing a Summer 2018 shoot for Scott's Awakening and now we have more information to support that along with Prometheus/Covenant's Mark Huffam and Scott Free's Michael Pruss named as producers.
"At one time."
Doesn't mean anything, until we hear confirmation it's been cancelled. From all indications, it's still going ahead, although that could change in the future. The change of ownership one likely reason, but I'll wait until it's confirmed.
In the meantime, I look forward to Covenant 2.
It's not confirmation either way. We know Fox was definitely willing. We know Scott definitely is. But we also infer that whatever direction Scott was going with Awakening during Covenant's production is likely not the one Fox settled with, considering Snider's comments about trusting Scott to find the right direction. That implies they were still looking for it.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 15, 2017, 04:59:25 AM
That's not entirely true. Alien 3 was being re-appraised even before the Assembly Cut was released in 2003.
More details on that will certainly help.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 14, 2017, 11:51:32 PM
The reason Prometheus David is different to Covenant David is something called "character development".
Character development happens on screen. Terrible storytelling happens off screen.
Scott, please, stop. You are killing Alien. Please please Disney, eliminate Prometheus and Covenant, they are the worst creation of the humanity. Even Bee movie is perfect compared with this David saga.
Scott, please, more. You're making ALIEN subversive. Please please Disney, more 'PROMETHEUS' and 'ALIEN: Covenant' They are the best creation of the humanity. David saga is the bomb!
-Windebieste.
Even though I liked David in Covenant, I really prefer his Prometheus performance because of the subtlety. I understand we haven't seen him for 10 years and he's going a bit crazy, so of course he's changed. But that's 10 years of off screen development, so David's Covenant performance can seem a bit jarring sometimes, steering in the cartoon villain area. I do think they went a bit overboard, some more subtlety would have been nice or better yet, keep the craziness but add better, more fitting dialog. I still liked him, though more in Prometheus. I would like to see a conclusion to the character.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 15, 2017, 09:33:18 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 15, 2017, 09:06:36 AM
http://omegaunderground.com/2017/12/14/fox-plans-shoot-ridley-scotts-alien-awakening-next-summer/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
QuoteOmega Underground had learned that at one time Fox was eyeing a Summer 2018 shoot for Scott's Awakening and now we have more information to support that along with Prometheus/Covenant's Mark Huffam and Scott Free's Michael Pruss named as producers.
"At one time."
Doesn't mean anything, until we hear confirmation it's been cancelled. From all indications, it's still going ahead, although that could change in the future. The change of ownership one likely reason, but I'll wait until it's confirmed.
In the meantime, I look forward to Covenant 2.
I'm hoping to hear more details within the next couple of months as All the Money in the World gears up for award season. Plummer is at least nominated.
I'm sure Ridley's thoughts on Disney's acquisition of Fox will be at the forefront of most journalistic goals during that time.
Quote from: windebieste on Dec 15, 2017, 12:41:23 PM
Scott, please, more. You're making ALIEN subversive. Please please Disney, more 'PROMETHEUS' and 'ALIEN: Covenant' They are the best creation of the humanity. David saga is the bomb!
-Windebieste.
"They are the best creation of
THE humanity."
Guys I think Windie is losing it.
Wonder if Disney is going to do a George Lucas to Ridley Scott
Lol Disney isn't in the business of making movies for 100 million only to make 200 back
Well, Disney announced today that it has no plans to remove the R rated Marvel films coming up, biggest of which being Deadpool. I dont see why Disney would do the same to the Alien franchise. There was a good point made about merchandising and such being limited on R rated films, however, there are already so many brands out there making toys and other "fan boy" goods from R rated series like Aliens, Terminator, Predator etc that I doubt it will have any drastic ramifications in Disneys mind to change the rating of some of the most beloved franchises around. Given the Aliens franchise has amassed such a huge following its 30 years of existence, it would be a bit of a silly thing to mess with the standard rating of the films (we all saw what happened with AvP because of it).
I genuinely hope that Disney gets behind the Aliens franchise like it did with Star Wars. Though the Aliens franchise isnt quite as big as Star Wars, its still a lucrative and good investment choice for Disney to come in and put some money and new talent behind. Personally I believe that Disney shoudl let Scott finish out his trilogy of films, then get Neil Blomkamp back in the picture and have him make his Alien 5 film. There were A LOT of people out there (myslef included) who were VERY excited to see Blomkamps film become a reality, if nothing more to see him PROPERLY close out the Ripley storyline. It would make sense to allow Scott to finish his trilogy as well as allow for the Blomkamp Alien 5 to be made as BOTH films would tie up 2 storylines neatly and nicely... then allow for additional Aliens films to be produced that exist in the same universe, but have nothing to do with the David/Ripley storylines (much like the comic books and novels have done for decades that STILL continue to sell well to this day).
Quote from: monkeylove on Dec 15, 2017, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 15, 2017, 04:59:25 AM
That's not entirely true. Alien 3 was being re-appraised even before the Assembly Cut was released in 2003.
More details on that will certainly help.
I remember reading an article in SFX magazine around the time Alien Resurrection came out.
Quote from: Deaconschristpose on Dec 15, 2017, 08:13:51 AM
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Dec 15, 2017, 07:25:55 AM
"Ironically, it is when Ripley discovers that she is harboring the new Alien Queen inside her—essentially her death warrant—that she is able to pull herself together and find a certain degree of purpose in what remains of her life. These are emotional beats that are more complex than the sort that are normally found in the main character of a big-budget sequel and Weaver plays all of them beautifully—she may have been nominated for "Aliens" but her performance here is arguably better.
Whatever one may think about "Alien 3" and "Alien Resurrection," they were works of vision and ambition by serious-minded filmmakers that had the misfortune to follow in the footsteps of two of the greatest films of their type and wound up to a great extent suffering from the impossibly high expectations of moviegoers."......rogerebert.com
This is so good. Really flosses my brain from all the negative fanboy stuff. 3 is great, Res is what it is. Sigourney's reign of the character is a very special thing that definitely needs another round, whether it's Chappie or Blade Runner. Mouse house will probably get it right.
And I actually think Awakening might get the budget it deserves. People needed to stop blaming Ridley and put the heat on Rupert Murdoch. Have you watched his news channel? He's captured Mick Jagger's wife! All this Disney aquisition shit is so predictable that I bet that big layout was part of a big Hollywood plan laid out years ago. The Xenomorph has been at MGM Studios for a long time...
I'll say it again, Resurrection has one of the absolute sickest scenes in the franchise (the failed clones).
The failed clone scene is more emotional than "sick" (don't know what you mean by 'sick' though). The Newborn birth scene is what I would call sick, in that it is one of the most insane pieces of creature feature cinema ever put to film.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 15, 2017, 11:16:40 PM
The failed clone scene is more emotional than "sick" (don't know what you mean by 'sick' though). The Newborn birth scene is what I would call sick, in that it is one of the most insane pieces of creature feature cinema ever put to film.
Nah the emotional part doesn't touch me at all, it is the pure horror and wonder of the misshapen clones themselves that leave an impression.
I agree on that. But after watching Alien Covenant, I feel like that scene has been upstaged a little. No image is more confronting than Shaw laid on the table severely mutilated with her innards exposed.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 16, 2017, 12:29:07 AM
I agree on that. But after watching Alien Covenant, I feel like that scene has been upstaged a little. No image is more confronting than Shaw laid on the table severely mutilated with her innards exposed.
I have to disagree on that, but I might be biased since Alien Resurrection is the first alien movie I can remember watching, from a VHS recording starting right before the failed clones scene. I love how they incorporated something that looked like real congenital defects, woeful asymmetry, and xenomorph and human aspects all into these beautiful horrific clones.
Shaw looked too much like a Giger painting for me, too staged, I didn't feel too much from it.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 16, 2017, 12:29:07 AM
I agree on that. But after watching Alien Covenant, I feel like that scene has been upstaged a little. No image is more confronting than Shaw laid on the table severely mutilated with her innards exposed.
I kinda cared about her character and just thinking of what David did to her still disturbs me.
Quote from: monkeylove on Dec 15, 2017, 02:45:37 AM
Quote from: Denton Smalls on Dec 14, 2017, 10:26:21 AM
I think it will take some time for the prequels to be fully appreciated for what they are, much like Alien 3's popularity, which was pretty low at the time of release, but has risen to cult status over time.
It's probably because of other film versions of Alien 3. These two prequels, though, need major rewrites.
My views on Alien3 have never changed. It starts well, it's got an interesting plot around Ripley, but essentially it's flawed because two of its major protagonists are killed off mid-film which could have added much needed character interplay in the third act. As it is the rest of the movie is an indistinct runaround interspersed with Ripley's dilemma. It's the best film of the sequels, because of Fincher's talents, but in any version it remains flawed.
Prometheus and Covenant not so much, like them or not they have a vision that seems to me to be uncompromised, the scripts have developed with some fluidity but they are heading in a solid direction - IMHO. No rewrites required.
Clemens and Andrews are bumped off for the same reason Dallas, Apone and Gorman are taken out. I think Ripley and Dillon's relationship turned out more interesting than the continuance of Clemens or Andrews.
"indistinct runaround" is a pretty fair description though.
I'd argue that a Clemens or Andrews continuance would've been more interesting, because characters like theirs were bumped off early in previous entries.
Quote from: SM on Dec 17, 2017, 11:52:50 PM
Clemens and Andrews are bumped off for the same reason Dallas, Apone and Gorman are taken out. I think Ripley and Dillon's relationship turned out more interesting than the continuance of Clemens or Andrews.
"indistinct runaround" is a pretty fair description though.
I agree, Dillon and Ripley's dynamic through the movie is very interesting and useful to the movie itself
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 18, 2017, 12:22:15 AM
I'd argue that a Clemens or Andrews continuance would've been more interesting, because characters like theirs were bumped off early in previous entries.
Andrews would've been a continually annoying obstacle. Had someone else been got in the mess hall and Andrews lived, he still would've tried to assert his authority in combatting the Alien instead of deferring to Ripley. Clemens probably would've been Hicks Mark II. Not only did Ripley have to be thrust into leadership, but she had to do it with guys who wanted to rape and murder her. There's no support network like in Aliens.
Quote from: SM on Dec 17, 2017, 11:52:50 PM
Clemens and Andrews are bumped off for the same reason Dallas, Apone and Gorman are taken out. I think Ripley and Dillon's relationship turned out more interesting than the continuance of Clemens or Andrews.
"indistinct runaround" is a pretty fair description though.
Sure, I get that the deaths are unexpected shocks, but for me, their deaths at the hands of a creature they are not even aware exists robs the film of the more interesting characters discussing the options in their crises. In particular it might have been interesting to see how Clemens, the negligent medico, had reacted to discovering Ripley's condition. I agree that Dillon and 85 are the more interesting characters around her towards the end of the film, but if Clemens and Andrews had to accept Ripley's greater experience and had been involved and died in the runaround section, that whole sequence might have felt grander, more coherent, and far more significant within the plot. Instead Ripley takes the lead, because she's.. Ripley.
It wasn't too much of a cliche in 1992 but killing off major characters earlier than expected is one of those 'curveball' ideas that is fairly well worn, and is done for good or bad, and in Alien3's case I feel it saps the film of potential far more than it shocks.
Quote from: Gash on Dec 17, 2017, 11:38:14 PM
My views on Alien3 have never changed. It starts well, it's got an interesting plot around Ripley, but essentially it's flawed because two of its major protagonists are killed off mid-film which could have added much needed character interplay in the third act. As it is the rest of the movie is an indistinct runaround interspersed with Ripley's dilemma. It's the best film of the sequels, because of Fincher's talents, but in any version it remains flawed.
Prometheus and Covenant not so much, like them or not they have a vision that seems to me to be uncompromised, the scripts have developed with some fluidity but they are heading in a solid direction - IMHO. No rewrites required.
I didn't pay much attention to that flaw. What concerned me more was the dreariness of the setting. I was hoping for something set in a space station coupled with conspiracy involving the company, thus making the fourth film (and probably even subsequent ones) unnecessary.
Prometheus is the better of the two recent films, but is flawed because of plot holes and characters doing stupid things. A:C is worse because it has similar plus jams content borrowed from the earlier films, leading to a mess. I do realize, though, the difficulty of envisioning an ancient astronaut story line that doesn't look out of place in light of the previous films.
"Andrews would've been a continually annoying obstacle. Had someone else been got in the mess hall and Andrews lived, he still would've tried to assert his authority in combatting the Alien instead of deferring to Ripley. Clemens probably would've been Hicks Mark II."
Andrews definitely would've been a liability. His death was necessary for Ripley to be able to assume a leadership position, although it might be arguable that the position she took was more of a proxy through Dillon, who held the others in check and gave much needed pushes when required.
While clemen's was a great character, his relationship with Ripley may have provided an unnecessary level of human interest at times when survival needed to take center stage. His death also was a stout twist of the blade for Ripley, as the last chance of her having any kind of close personal relationship with another human was taken. Whether this mentally played even a small role in her decision to end it all or not, it sure must have been one of the last "little" nails in the coffin.
As far as Hicks 2 goes, I think Dillon really takes that cake. Dillon was a good parallel to Ripley, though his troubles were probably of his own making, he was a strong leader and intelligent individual who chose to fight rather than die. It's funny, sometimes when people think about the Alien movies, they think of the strong female leads. But I think it's fair to say that Parker, Hicks and Dillon had very strong Male roles in each of the films.
I will add though, that like Parker and Dillon, Hicks should've been allowed to go down fighting. However, with the script for Alien being what it was, he would've spent that film trying to protect Ripley from the inmates and the Alien, and it would have added too much drama. I have a feeling we would've been looking at Hicks making good on that "I'll do us both" promise near the end of Alien 3.
The official 'chain of command' leaders always die in the Alien films. Dallas, Gorman, Andrews, Perez, Vickers, Oram..
"The official 'chain of command' leaders always die in the Alien films. Dallas, Gorman, Andrews, Perez, Vickers, Oram"
Yep. Nothing get's a group of characters frightened and saying "what do we do now?" quicker than offing the one I charge.
"I Think AI is becoming much more dangerous"
Yes Sir, especially to the future of the Alien franchise. Sorry, I've been saving that one for way too long.
What's next ahead of you? Is it the third Alien prequel?
That's in the works. My next film is one about the cartel.
I was a big fan of Alien: Covenant. I feel it was one of the more misunderstood films of the year.
Yeah, I think it was pretty good. It should have been much bigger, right? I was amazed, actually. It should have done better. It did fine, but it should have done way better. It was a good front path to the next phase. We're trying to pull away from the beast and go somewhere else with the story. There's a plan.[/i]
https://www.gq.com/story/ridley-scott-loves-the-stress-of-filmmaking
David gonna finally create
the biomech alien, his perfect organism...
and other things, too. 8)
Gonna be good to move away from the fleshy aesthetics
that we've had... for way too many movies now.
Scott is has made the Alien uninteresting.
David is going to create the biomechanoid alien and there will be no fleshy proto aliens anymore?
Wishful thinking.
Why would Scott care about that now? He cares about AI now, not in this Disney Land creature as he called it. This guy is going to make it bad out of spite, because he is a mean old man.
Unscarified the Alien franchise and made it another sci-fi. They need to bring it back to horror again.
Quote from: Buttz on Dec 23, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
Scott is has made the Alien uninteresting.
Quote from: Buttz on Dec 23, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
Scott is has made the Alien uninteresting.
Salvaged it from endless generic runarounds IMHO.
"There's no reason why 'Alien' should now not be on the same level for fans as 'Star Trek' and 'Star Wars,'" Scott told the Toronto Sun in a recent interview. "So I think the next step as to where we go is, do we sustain the 'Alien' (series) with the evolution of the beast or do we reinvent something else? I think you need to have an evolution on this famous beast because he's the best monster ever, really."
Read More:Adam Savage Goes Incognito in the 'Alien: Covenant' Spacesuit at Comic-Con — Watch
That response naturally led to a question about more "Alien" movies, and Scott was unequivocal in his response. "I would like to; they're crazy if they don't," he said. "David is a fantastic villain. I love what (Michael Fassbender) did in 'Covenant.' But it's f—ing hard, dude. We lifted 'Alien' out of a ditch and made "Prometheus.'"
http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/ridley-scott-alien-star-wars-star-trek-1201910690/
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 08:09:31 PM
Quote from: Buttz on Dec 23, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
Scott is has made the Alien uninteresting.
Salvaged it from endless generic runarounds IMHO.
Aliens, Alien 3, Alien:Resurrection? or all of them?
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 23, 2017, 08:46:37 PM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 08:09:31 PM
Quote from: Buttz on Dec 23, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
Scott is has made the Alien uninteresting.
Salvaged it from endless generic runarounds IMHO.
Aliens, Alien 3, Alien:Resurrection? or all of them?
Alien3 has some interesting ideas so I admire some aspects of it, all the others just rehash Alien to lesser effect.
I hope we get the next chapter in 2019 if Ridley hustles after the cartel film.
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 09:19:46 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 23, 2017, 08:46:37 PM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 08:09:31 PM
Quote from: Buttz on Dec 23, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
Scott is has made the Alien uninteresting.
Salvaged it from endless generic runarounds IMHO.
Aliens, Alien 3, Alien:Resurrection? or all of them?
Alien3 has some interesting ideas so I admire some aspects of it, all the others just rehash Alien to lesser effect.
And Covenant or even Prometheus aren't? :D
Quote from: acrediblesource on Dec 23, 2017, 07:49:15 PM
Unscarified the Alien franchise and made it another sci-fi. They need to bring it back to horror again.
The backburster or medpod scene wasn't horror enough?
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 23, 2017, 11:10:09 PM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 09:19:46 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 23, 2017, 08:46:37 PM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 08:09:31 PM
Quote from: Buttz on Dec 23, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
Scott is has made the Alien uninteresting.
Salvaged it from endless generic runarounds IMHO.
Aliens, Alien 3, Alien:Resurrection? or all of them?
Alien3 has some interesting ideas so I admire some aspects of it, all the others just rehash Alien to lesser effect.
And Covenant or even Prometheus aren't? :D
They touch on the familiar whilst bringing in a lot of new ideas - what decent companion films should do.
Quote from: Daszkowski on Dec 23, 2017, 08:25:10 PM
"There's no reason why 'Alien' should now not be on the same level for fans as 'Star Trek' and 'Star Wars,'" Scott told the Toronto Sun in a recent interview. "So I think the next step as to where we go is, do we sustain the 'Alien' (series) with the evolution of the beast or do we reinvent something else? I think you need to have an evolution on this famous beast because he's the best monster ever, really."
Read More:Adam Savage Goes Incognito in the 'Alien: Covenant' Spacesuit at Comic-Con — Watch
That response naturally led to a question about more "Alien" movies, and Scott was unequivocal in his response. "I would like to; they're crazy if they don't," he said. "David is a fantastic villain. I love what (Michael Fassbender) did in 'Covenant.' But it's f—ing hard, dude. We lifted 'Alien' out of a ditch and made "Prometheus.'"
http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/ridley-scott-alien-star-wars-star-trek-1201910690/
Lifted Alien out of a ditch only to bury it deeper with the prequels ::)
Make the Alien dangerous again. Don't do things like damned Xeno POV cinematography etc etc... No-one knows where it is until it's (probably) too late! Or if it isn't too late, escaping these things comes at the highest of prices! Get Alex Garland to make an Alien movie! Scott can Exec Produce ;-)
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 11:22:47 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 23, 2017, 11:10:09 PM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 09:19:46 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 23, 2017, 08:46:37 PM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 08:09:31 PM
Quote from: Buttz on Dec 23, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
Scott is has made the Alien uninteresting.
Salvaged it from endless generic runarounds IMHO.
Aliens, Alien 3, Alien:Resurrection? or all of them?
Alien3 has some interesting ideas so I admire some aspects of it, all the others just rehash Alien to lesser effect.
And Covenant or even Prometheus aren't? :D
They touch on the familiar whilst bringing in a lot of new ideas - what decent companion films should do.
Alien - group of people stumble upon a mysterious signal that leads then to derelict alien ship and they get killed.
Prometheus - group of moron scientists find/stumble upon a mysterious signal that leads them to a derelict alien ship and they get killed.
Alien: Covenant - a group of complete morons stumble upon a mysterious signal that leads them to a derelict alien ship and then unsurprisingly they get killed, because they are idiots. There's also a magical android involved who'd rather belong in a Disney fairy tale than any serious sci-fi and a cgi caricature of Alien creature who get's blown to space. But the movie has a dark twist ending, therefore it's different and it automatically makes a shit film good, like proven by Rogue One.
You want a remake of Cameron's film, and yet you're complaining about no "originality"? :D
Fanboys these days.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 24, 2017, 12:09:33 AM
You want a remake of Cameron's film, and yet you're complaining about no "originality"? :D
Fanboys these days.
Teh f**k why prequel lovers still resort to this unguided idea, just give it a rest already. I just want a good film, not a silly cgi mess that belittles the originals.
Gash suggested the prequels unlike the sequels weren't a rehash of Alien, while i think the prequels are exactly that, a rehash but without any finesse. Where did i suggest i want a remake of Aliens?
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 24, 2017, 12:09:33 AM
You want a remake of Cameron's film, and yet you're complaining about no "originality"? :D
Fanboys these days.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TautBraveAfricancivet-max-1mb.gif)
Really considering it making a rule that this nonsense retort is banned.
I just want critics of them like you to be consistent. I see you're now changing your complaint from "lack of originality" (because it's a bad argument) to wanting "a good film."
And Prometheus was wholly original when compared to the Alien films; not only is your critique of this film simply inaccurate, it also demonstrates an inconsistency in your complaint about the prequels as a whole.
What you seem to want is a soft reboot of Cameron's film, primarily driven by nostalgia.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 24, 2017, 12:36:13 AM
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 24, 2017, 12:09:33 AM
You want a remake of Cameron's film, and yet you're complaining about no "originality"? :D
Fanboys these days.
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TautBraveAfricancivet-max-1mb.gif
Really considering it making a rule that this nonsense retort is banned.
I won't use the slur "fanboy" anymore.
Not talking about fanboy. Talking about the auto retort that anyone who dislikes Covenant automatically wants a remake of Aliens.
So the next movie of Ridley Scott is ... Cartel ?!
Yeah, Cartel is up next.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 24, 2017, 12:36:40 AM
I just want critics of them like you to be consistent. I see you're now changing your complaint from "lack of originality" (because it's a bad argument) to wanting "a good film."
And Prometheus was wholly original when compared to the Alien films; not only is your critique of this film simply inaccurate, it also demonstrates an inconsistency in your complaint about the prequels as a whole.
What you seem to want is a soft reboot of Cameron's film, primarily driven by nostalgia.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 24, 2017, 12:36:13 AM
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 24, 2017, 12:09:33 AM
You want a remake of Cameron's film, and yet you're complaining about no "originality"? :D
Fanboys these days.
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TautBraveAfricancivet-max-1mb.gif
Really considering it making a rule that this nonsense retort is banned.
I won't use the slur "fanboy" anymore.
I'm pretty much a fanboy, as are most of here, i personally don't find that insulting.
But you still projecting that lame conlusion on a Covenant critic like me is silly beyound belief, it's a bit insulting but then again i find it difficult to get insulted from complete strangers on the internet.
My main criticism is that in fact that the prequels are inconcictent mess, introducing half assed ideas, that they didn't even begin to properly explore and lacked almost every aspect what made originals so damn good. Take the rehashed bits away from the prequels and what do you get, basically nothing but first pages of somewhat interesting ideas (Prometheus).
Prometheus wasn't that bad, there was still hope that the sequel could go on in interesting ways and i've always stated they should have continued with what they had first in mind, have a otherworldy adventure with Shaw and David with or without the xenomorph.
But naw, all i want is a remake of Aliens.
I Liked Daniels character, if she just dies or they do that stupid thing they did to Shaw it would be a waste (again) of a character
QuotePrometheus - group of moron scientists find/stumble upon a mysterious signal that leads them to a derelict alien ship and they get killed.
That didn't happen in Prometheus.
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 24, 2017, 12:03:19 AM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 11:22:47 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 23, 2017, 11:10:09 PM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 09:19:46 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 23, 2017, 08:46:37 PM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 08:09:31 PM
Quote from: Buttz on Dec 23, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
Scott is has made the Alien uninteresting.
Salvaged it from endless generic runarounds IMHO.
Aliens, Alien 3, Alien:Resurrection? or all of them?
Alien3 has some interesting ideas so I admire some aspects of it, all the others just rehash Alien to lesser effect.
And Covenant or even Prometheus aren't? :D
They touch on the familiar whilst bringing in a lot of new ideas - what decent companion films should do.
Alien - group of people stumble upon a mysterious signal that leads then to derelict alien ship and they get killed.
Prometheus - group of moron scientists find/stumble upon a mysterious signal that leads them to a derelict alien ship and they get killed.
Alien: Covenant - a group of complete morons stumble upon a mysterious signal that leads them to a derelict alien ship and then unsurprisingly they get killed, because they are idiots. There's also a magical android involved who'd rather belong in a Disney fairy tale than any serious sci-fi and a cgi caricature of Alien creature who get's blown to space. But the movie has a dark twist ending, therefore it's different and it automatically makes a shit film good, like proven by Rogue One.
Ok. Sorry you see it that way. Far more going on than that. But whatever. Like what you like.
Planetary exploration being the common theme in Alien films - who'da thunk?
Quote from: SM on Dec 24, 2017, 01:42:39 AM
QuotePrometheus - group of moron scientists find/stumble upon a mysterious signal that leads them to a derelict alien ship and they get killed.
That didn't happen in Prometheus.
Sorry, change - stumble upon mysterious signal with stumble upon star map that leads to...
Quote from: Gash on Dec 24, 2017, 01:46:19 AM
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 24, 2017, 12:03:19 AM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 11:22:47 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 23, 2017, 11:10:09 PM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 09:19:46 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 23, 2017, 08:46:37 PM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 08:09:31 PM
Quote from: Buttz on Dec 23, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
Scott is has made the Alien uninteresting.
Salvaged it from endless generic runarounds IMHO.
Aliens, Alien 3, Alien:Resurrection? or all of them?
Alien3 has some interesting ideas so I admire some aspects of it, all the others just rehash Alien to lesser effect.
And Covenant or even Prometheus aren't? :D
They touch on the familiar whilst bringing in a lot of new ideas - what decent companion films should do.
Alien - group of people stumble upon a mysterious signal that leads then to derelict alien ship and they get killed.
Prometheus - group of moron scientists find/stumble upon a mysterious signal that leads them to a derelict alien ship and they get killed.
Alien: Covenant - a group of complete morons stumble upon a mysterious signal that leads them to a derelict alien ship and then unsurprisingly they get killed, because they are idiots. There's also a magical android involved who'd rather belong in a Disney fairy tale than any serious sci-fi and a cgi caricature of Alien creature who get's blown to space. But the movie has a dark twist ending, therefore it's different and it automatically makes a shit film good, like proven by Rogue One.
Ok. Sorry you see it that way. Far more going on than that. But whatever. Like what you like.
Planetary exploration being the common theme in Alien films - who'da thunk?
There is obviously more going on, same with Aliens, Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection.
I'm sorry too that this is the way i feel about the prequels, wish i'd like them, but they are not for me and i do believe there are issues present that objectively confirm that they are not good films. In the end it's just an opinion, not telling anyone what they can like or not. It irks me a bit that some here believe it's as good as it could get, again just opinions.
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 23, 2017, 11:53:17 PM
Quote from: Daszkowski on Dec 23, 2017, 08:25:10 PM
"There's no reason why 'Alien' should now not be on the same level for fans as 'Star Trek' and 'Star Wars,'" Scott told the Toronto Sun in a recent interview. "So I think the next step as to where we go is, do we sustain the 'Alien' (series) with the evolution of the beast or do we reinvent something else? I think you need to have an evolution on this famous beast because he's the best monster ever, really."
Read More:Adam Savage Goes Incognito in the 'Alien: Covenant' Spacesuit at Comic-Con — Watch
That response naturally led to a question about more "Alien" movies, and Scott was unequivocal in his response. "I would like to; they're crazy if they don't," he said. "David is a fantastic villain. I love what (Michael Fassbender) did in 'Covenant.' But it's f—ing hard, dude. We lifted 'Alien' out of a ditch and made "Prometheus.'"
http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/ridley-scott-alien-star-wars-star-trek-1201910690/
Lifted Alien out of a ditch only to bury it deeper with the prequels ::)
Lifted it out of a ditch is an accurate description of where Resurrection, AvP and AvP:R drove it - practically into cheap sell-through territory. Whether you like the stories or not Prometheus and Covenant got A grade treatment and commitment which is miraculous in itself.
Quote from: Gash on Dec 24, 2017, 02:16:49 AM
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 23, 2017, 11:53:17 PM
Quote from: Daszkowski on Dec 23, 2017, 08:25:10 PM
"There's no reason why 'Alien' should now not be on the same level for fans as 'Star Trek' and 'Star Wars,'" Scott told the Toronto Sun in a recent interview. "So I think the next step as to where we go is, do we sustain the 'Alien' (series) with the evolution of the beast or do we reinvent something else? I think you need to have an evolution on this famous beast because he's the best monster ever, really."
Read More:Adam Savage Goes Incognito in the 'Alien: Covenant' Spacesuit at Comic-Con — Watch
That response naturally led to a question about more "Alien" movies, and Scott was unequivocal in his response. "I would like to; they're crazy if they don't," he said. "David is a fantastic villain. I love what (Michael Fassbender) did in 'Covenant.' But it's f—ing hard, dude. We lifted 'Alien' out of a ditch and made "Prometheus.'"
http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/ridley-scott-alien-star-wars-star-trek-1201910690/
Lifted Alien out of a ditch only to bury it deeper with the prequels ::)
Lifted it out of a ditch is an accurate description of where Resurrection, AvP and AvP:R drove it - practically into cheap sell-through territory. Whether you like the stories or not Prometheus and Covenant got A grade treatment and commitment which is miraculous in itself.
AvP and AvP:R are irrelevant. They didn't help but they shouldn't be a factor. A:R is flawed but i enjoy it more than Covenant, better film too imo. I don't think it's really even possible to do much worse with 100mil than what was done in second half of Covenant, grade A treatment my ass.
Perhaps you should stop posting the first inanities that pop into your head? A:R, AVP, and AVP:R were bad, yes, but they turned in substantial profits for the studio; which means they did keep the series relevant. You can't be objective about anything, can you?
I'm assuming that poster was primarily referring to the production design on Covenant when he said "Grade A treatment,' which is true, if he did.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 24, 2017, 02:35:59 AM
Perhaps you should stop posting the first inanities that pop into your head? A:R, AVP, and AVP:R were bad, yes, but they turned in substantial profits for the studio; which means they did keep the series relevant. You can't be objective about anything, can you?
I'm assuming that poster was primarily referring to the production design on Covenant when he said "Grade A treatment,' which is true, if he did.
Please! So what if they turned profits, they are products, that's what products do, turn profits. That doesn't mean they should be regarded as a proper representation of Alien, AvP are uncanon spinoffs nothing more. And if even drivel like that (AvP films, AvP 1 wasn't that terrible, still bad though) were able to turn profits that surely means Alien wasn't exaclty cooked was it.
A:R certainly did the Alien series no favours, but do you realize Alien Resurrection isn't regarded overall as being substantially worse than Covenant, metascore 63 vs 65, imdb 6.2 vs 6.5 and critics were way more harsh back then. Back then Covenant score would have probably been in the low thirties.
Aliens:Colonial Marines was complete thrash by your misguided logic Alien:Isolation should have not been made.
Prometheus looked very beautiful, sometimes too beautiful with perfectly lit faces that made it feel like a posh commercial than gritty sci-fi. Covenant looked surprisingly average coming from Ridley with a 100mil.
AVP made profit because a lot of people wanted to see AVP. But they knew diminishing returns would affect it hence why they lowered the budgets on the AVP films.
Prometheus returned the series to 100m+ budgets and grade A filmmaking.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 24, 2017, 03:20:14 AM
AVP made profit because a lot of people wanted to see AVP. But they knew diminishing returns would affect it hence why they lowered the budgets on the AVP films.
Prometheus returned the series to 100m+ budgets and grade A filmmaking.
This doesn't really oppose what i've said maybe we aren't even arguing here, but agreeing. Official Alien prequel from Ridley Scott sells by itself.
That and a lot of people like it, judging by audience scores, except for the diehards.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 24, 2017, 03:29:14 AM
That and a lot of people like it, judging by audience scores, except for the diehards.
I can understand why people like it, the landscape for high budget semi serious sci-fi couldn't be more barren these days. Now we had BR2049 and failed and the landscape will remain vacant for some time.
Alrighty,
"I think they have to. There's no reason why Alien should now not be on the same level for fans as Star Trek and Star Wars. "
In the sense that the fans (star wars) aren't happy with the direction the films are going or the quality? Or in the sense that people love the quality of the older Alien films and want more like them instead sir?
"So I think the next step as to where we go is, do we sustain the Alien (series) with the evolution of the beast or do we reinvent something else?"
The current direction is not sustainable. Covenant made less money than Prometheus, and still received mixed reactions. This is a downward trend. I'd be hesitant to call this evolving, it's been more of a de-evolution to be quite frank. The beast has been reduced to the mere product of a lonely android's genocidal dreams. A horrific plaything used to deal punishment against his human family for not hugging him enough as a child. It is no longer a frightening abomination of otherworldy evolution.
" I think you need to have an evolution on this famous beast because he's the best monster ever, really."
So now he's the best, not some overcooked thing to be tossed aside? No disrespect to Mr. Scott, and I mean that with utmost sincerity. I just find this statement ironic given his previous comments regarding the creature. Perhaps a message is getting through.
"David is a fantastic villain"
Yes he is. He should not however be the main focus of a series of films with the word "Alien" in them.
"We lifted Alien out of a ditch and made Prometheus."
Which was also promptly driven into said ditch (hands up!). Followed by Covenant, which filled the ditch with gasoline, set everything on fire, and spread until several of the things fans liked about the franchise was burned to the ground. Alien is still hanging from the crane, it's time to look to others for fresh ideas regarding how to get it down.
Now that Disney is in control this franchise is going to get watered down and commercialized. I suspect in 10 years fans will be begging for the quality of Covenant and Prometheus. The xenomorph finally got interesting again with the last two movies. I hope we get the finale, but who knows at this point. I have no interest in rebooting Aliens for nostalgic purposes, but sadly that's where the money is and Disney loves the money more than anything else.
"Now that Disney is in control this franchise is going to get watered down and commercialized"
You never know, Disney might do alright by the franchise. Not every Disney film will feature singing mice or Pirates. Then again, even if we get 5 years of pg-13 avp films, sometimes if you want to lose weight, you gotta eat your leafy greens. Should this happen, I suspect that once the creatures have delivered a substantial enough return or just paid for themselves, Disney will be more willing to take "one" single chance at something more mature or grandiose. Should that go the way of the prequels, then we'll be in trouble. Real, tangible, long-term trouble.
" I suspect in 10 years fans will be begging for the quality of Covenant and Prometheus."
Should I ever find myself begging for any film to be the quality of covenant, all is truly lost, and I will promptly give up television forever. ;D
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 24, 2017, 03:34:06 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 24, 2017, 03:29:14 AM
That and a lot of people like it, judging by audience scores, except for the diehards.
I can understand why people like it, the landscape for high budget semi serious sci-fi couldn't be more barren these days. Now we had BR2049 and failed and the landscape will remain vacant for some time.
Eh?
I'm starting to dislike Scott, puts a stop to alien 5 and produces covenant which wasn't the worst but you could tell he'd run out of new ideas and unpredictablity. The franchise is in free fall in my opinion if there was to be any kind of alien film released it would take something incredibly special.
I'd love to chuck 100m at blomkamp and finally see his alien 5.
Well the fans are sure turning out to be as divisive as Star Wars & Trek fans.
I think Ridley Scott is clutching at straws here.
" the sequel was originally scheduled to begin pre-production in September 2017 but was shelved after the tepid box office response to Alien: Covenant"
"The sequel to Covenant was originally due to start preproduction this month in Sydney. After the box office results filming was cancelled, and a warehouse storage unit full of stuff was auctioned off a few months ago. So the original plan of pumping out another quickly has definitely changed with no immediate plans for anything." (reffering to Prometheus items auctioned off as code that the film had failed).
Also Ridley Scott cancelling his "ALIEN- PARADISE" film that would've been an exploration of the Engineer homeworld.
Listen. Get Disney to make Blomkamp's ALIEN-5 but let's get real not going to happen due to Weaver's supposed AVATAR 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 schedule and Michael Biehn collective ages.
Here's what we need.
Expanded ALIENS universe akin to Dark Horse comics based on Blomkamp's concept art, scale and tone. Skip the "Xenomorph Jurassic World raptor squad", or Ripley's biomechanical suit, daft idea.
Make an AVP3 set in the future. Make it dark, violent, using weapon's from ALIENS and updated Minigun from Predator.
Profit.
QuoteThe sequel to Covenant was originally due to start preproduction this month in Sydney. After the box office results filming was cancelled, and a warehouse storage unit full of stuff was auctioned off a few months ago. So the original plan of pumping out another quickly has definitely changed with no immediate plans for anything
That's just a rumour. If Ridley says it's still happening then it's still happening.
Since when has any Alien film had a 100 million + budget prior to Prometheus and Covenant lol
Adjusted for inflation, Alien 3 and Resurrection would've both been north of $100m.
QuoteNow that Disney is in control this franchise is going to get watered down and commercialized.
When were they not commercialised?
Only way fans will find themselves begging for the quality of Prometheus & Covenant is if next movie turns out to be horrible, which looking at what Disney did with Last Jedi, is possible. Fans already begging for Lucas to come back. Time changes all, bad movie turns into ok movie, ok movie turns into good movie. It happens all the time and people look back and say it was not bad movie.
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 24, 2017, 07:22:45 AM
Since when has any Alien film had a 100 million + budget prior to Prometheus and Covenant lol
Well there's a reason that the MARVEL extended Universe is just that. It's an extended Universe which increased budgets to $150 Million to $250 Million with Box Office returns of Billions.
Fox has dragged its heels for decades with Executive Producer David Giler saying "oh we have these expansive, imaginative scripts that are awesome" and then proceeds to piss on them refusing to show the money, like some deadbeat Father ignoring his Son's inputs.
Audiences are not tired of ALIENS or Xenomorphs. They are tired of being cooped up in confined spaces for 8 movies. The ALIEN is no longer scary it is boring because of the same movie being made over and over. Familiarity breeds contempt.
The reason ALIENS was a box office smash was because we saw a bigger and greater threat (ALIEN- QUEEN). Imagine that on a futuristic Earth.
Let's have some scale, like ALIENS EARTH WAR or BOOK TWO. If David Giler is not willing to do the "20 powerloaders vs 20 ALIEN Queens" lets hand it to someone who DOES.
Quote from: Gash on Dec 24, 2017, 05:40:06 AM
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 24, 2017, 03:34:06 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 24, 2017, 03:29:14 AM
That and a lot of people like it, judging by audience scores, except for the diehards.
I can understand why people like it, the landscape for high budget semi serious sci-fi couldn't be more barren these days. Now we had BR2049 and failed and the landscape will remain vacant for some time.
Eh?
Reading my post again, it is a bit off and missing the word it. "Now we had BR2049 and
it failed".
What I meant was after BR2049 failed at the box office, the future is not too bright for any high budget semi serious sci-fi, all we probably gonna get is more of the kids stuff.
Quote from: AVP-CAPCOM on Dec 24, 2017, 08:21:27 AM
Quote from: Whos_Nick on Dec 24, 2017, 07:22:45 AM
Since when has any Alien film had a 100 million + budget prior to Prometheus and Covenant lol
Audiences are not tired of ALIENS or Xenomorphs. They are tired of being cooped up in confined spaces for 8 movies. The ALIEN is no longer scary it is boring because of the same movie being made over and over. Familiarity breeds contempt.
The reason ALIENS was a box office smash was because we saw a bigger and greater threat (ALIEN- QUEEN). Imagine that on a futuristic Earth.
Let's have some scale, like ALIENS EARTH WAR or BOOK TWO. If David Giler is not willing to do the "20 powerloaders vs 20 ALIEN Queens" lets hand it to someone who DOES.
Not sure if serious.
Quote from: Rakkul on Dec 24, 2017, 07:59:04 AM
Only way fans will find themselves begging for the quality of Prometheus & Covenant is if next movie turns out to be horrible, which looking at what Disney did with Last Jedi, is possible. Fans already begging for Lucas to come back. Time changes all, bad movie turns into ok movie, ok movie turns into good movie. It happens all the time and people look back and say it was not bad movie.
This could be true but i don't think it's even possible to do much worse than Covenant, It has all the similar issues that plague the blockbusters these days and then some. It could as we'll been made by Disney. I think we've already reached the lowest points and hopefully the next ones will try harder.
SON OF A BITCH.
I want to know who the god damn space jockey is.
I want to see what becomes of David and the Covenant colonists.
I want to see where this f**king story was going.
These mysteries were fine before Covenant, but Covenant brought us too close to answers to just leave these questions up in the air.
I hope Scott will at least be open in interviews with what his plans were. (And I don't care to hear any disrespectful bullshit about how he never had any plans/is senile/is the next George Lucas.)
Quote from: necrotard on Dec 24, 2017, 09:34:22 AM
necrotard Posted about a minute ago
SON OF A BITCH.
I want to know who the god damn space jockey is.
I want to see what becomes of David and the Covenant colonists.
I want to see where this f**king story was going.
These mysteries were fine before Covenant, but Covenant brought us too close to answers to just leave these questions up in the air.
I hope Scott will at least be open in interviews with what his plans were. (And I don't care to hear any disrespectful bullshit about how he never had any plans/is senile/is the next George Lucas.)
But it does seem there never was a solid plan with the prequels. If there was, it's obvious that Covenant took a detour by killing off Shaw, shoehorning xenomorphs and perhaps even making David the creator of Aliens. I personally don't want the space jockey in Alien to be related to the prequels in any way, but if they do that, make the whole thing seem like a reboot rather than a prequel. Then the classics are intact.
Quote from: AVP-CAPCOM on Dec 24, 2017, 06:33:58 AM
Here's what we need.
Expanded ALIENS universe akin to Dark Horse comics based on Blomkamp's concept art, scale and tone. Skip the "Xenomorph Jurassic World raptor squad", or Ripley's biomechanical suit, daft idea.
Make an AVP3 set in the future. Make it dark, violent, using weapon's from ALIENS and updated Minigun from Predator.
Profit.
We need that?
Quote from: AVP-CAPCOM on Dec 24, 2017, 08:21:27 AM
The reason ALIENS was a box office smash was because we saw a bigger and greater threat (ALIEN- QUEEN). Imagine that on a futuristic Earth.
Let's have some scale, like ALIENS EARTH WAR or BOOK TWO. If David Giler is not willing to do the "20 powerloaders vs 20 ALIEN Queens" lets hand it to someone who DOES.
Oh gawd!
Quote from: Gash on Dec 24, 2017, 09:48:52 AM
Quote from: AVP-CAPCOM on Dec 24, 2017, 06:33:58 AM
Here's what we need.
Expanded ALIENS universe akin to Dark Horse comics based on Blomkamp's concept art, scale and tone. Skip the "Xenomorph Jurassic World raptor squad", or Ripley's biomechanical suit, daft idea.
Make an AVP3 set in the future. Make it dark, violent, using weapon's from ALIENS and updated Minigun from Predator.
Profit.
We need that?
Quote from: AVP-CAPCOM on Dec 24, 2017, 08:21:27 AM
The reason ALIENS was a box office smash was because we saw a bigger and greater threat (ALIEN- QUEEN). Imagine that on a futuristic Earth.
Let's have some scale, like ALIENS EARTH WAR or BOOK TWO. If David Giler is not willing to do the "20 powerloaders vs 20 ALIEN Queens" lets hand it to someone who DOES.
Oh gawd!
This is a trap most likely. But i'd be down with proper bleak AvP film with Aliens weaponry, basically a movie version of AvP 1999, Blomkamp?
Quote
I think you need to have an evolution on this famous beast because he's the best monster ever, really.
Do you think this could be Disney stepping in? It's just such a departure from his previous comments.
He used to sound so sure he was making another movie. Now all of the sudden the sounds frustrated and powerless.
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 24, 2017, 09:45:37 AM
Quote from: necrotard on Dec 24, 2017, 09:34:22 AM
necrotard Posted about a minute ago
SON OF A BITCH.
I want to know who the god damn space jockey is.
I want to see what becomes of David and the Covenant colonists.
I want to see where this f**king story was going.
These mysteries were fine before Covenant, but Covenant brought us too close to answers to just leave these questions up in the air.
I hope Scott will at least be open in interviews with what his plans were. (And I don't care to hear any disrespectful bullshit about how he never had any plans/is senile/is the next George Lucas.)
But it does seem there never was a solid plan with the prequels. If there was, it's obvious that Covenant took a detour by killing off Shaw, shoehorning xenomorphs and perhaps even making David the creator of Aliens. I personally don't want the space jockey in Alien to be related to the prequels in any way, but if they do that, make the whole thing seem like a reboot rather than a prequel. Then the classics are intact.
How do you know he didn't always intent to kill Shaw and have David wipe out the engineers? Isn't adding the aliens the only change that we know about for sure? I keep getting the impression that fans expected Prometheus 2 to be about David and Shaw having tea with the engineers and discussing the origins of humanity. With a dark horror/sci-fi franchise like this, I wouldn't be surprised if killing Shaw was always part of the plan.
Either way, Ridley stated a log time ago that this was supposed to lead into Alien and that he was going to explain the space jockey. He clearly plans to answer the questions that I have. I don't care if some details change along the way.
Quote from: necrotard on Dec 24, 2017, 10:16:51 AM
He used to sound so sure he was making another movie. Now all of the sudden the sounds frustrated and powerless.
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 24, 2017, 09:45:37 AM
Quote from: necrotard on Dec 24, 2017, 09:34:22 AM
necrotard Posted about a minute ago
SON OF A BITCH.
I want to know who the god damn space jockey is.
I want to see what becomes of David and the Covenant colonists.
I want to see where this f**king story was going.
These mysteries were fine before Covenant, but Covenant brought us too close to answers to just leave these questions up in the air.
I hope Scott will at least be open in interviews with what his plans were. (And I don't care to hear any disrespectful bullshit about how he never had any plans/is senile/is the next George Lucas.)
But it does seem there never was a solid plan with the prequels. If there was, it's obvious that Covenant took a detour by killing off Shaw, shoehorning xenomorphs and perhaps even making David the creator of Aliens. I personally don't want the space jockey in Alien to be related to the prequels in any way, but if they do that, make the whole thing seem like a reboot rather than a prequel. Then the classics are intact.
How do you know he didn't always intent to kill Shaw and have David wipe out the engineers? Isn't adding the aliens the only change that we know about for sure? I keep getting the impression that fans expected Prometheus 2 to be about David and Shaw having tea with the engineers and discussing the origins of humanity. With a dark horror/sci-fi franchise like this, I wouldn't be surprised if killing Shaw was always part of the plan.
Either way, Ridley stated a log time ago that this was supposed to lead into Alien and that he was going to explain the space jockey. He clearly plans to answer the questions that I have. I don't care if some details change along the way.
Don't know for sure, just a gut feeling though I too wouldn't be that surprised. The way how the death of Shaw was handled and how Covenant felt very disjointed. Early rumors about Prometheus sequel all seemed to indicate that the story of Shaw and David would continue deeper in the rabbit hole. Instead we got Shaw and David drinking tea and studying paper treasuremaps in Alien spaceship like it was boring 9-5 dayjob in a completely pointless short.
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 24, 2017, 09:45:37 AM
But it does seem there never was a solid plan with the prequels.
There never was a plan. So much so, that the films weren't even supposed to be prequels at one point:
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-18298709/ridley-scott-says-prometheus-is-not-a-prequel-to-alien (http://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-18298709/ridley-scott-says-prometheus-is-not-a-prequel-to-alien)
Scott can't plan out the next sentence that comes out of his mouth, let alone a film trilogy. It's mind boggling to me that people still take him seriously.
"Prometheus a prequel" - "Prometheus not a prequel" - "The beast is cooked" - "It's all about this guy here *looks at an alien poster*" - "The beast has almost run out" - "He's the best monster ever, really"...
::)
Of course there's a plan but plans change all the time especially with big productions like this.
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 24, 2017, 09:55:51 AM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 24, 2017, 09:48:52 AM
Quote from: AVP-CAPCOM on Dec 24, 2017, 06:33:58 AM
Here's what we need.
Expanded ALIENS universe akin to Dark Horse comics based on Blomkamp's concept art, scale and tone. Skip the "Xenomorph Jurassic World raptor squad", or Ripley's biomechanical suit, daft idea.
Make an AVP3 set in the future. Make it dark, violent, using weapon's from ALIENS and updated Minigun from Predator.
Profit.
We need that?
Quote from: AVP-CAPCOM on Dec 24, 2017, 08:21:27 AM
The reason ALIENS was a box office smash was because we saw a bigger and greater threat (ALIEN- QUEEN). Imagine that on a futuristic Earth.
Let's have some scale, like ALIENS EARTH WAR or BOOK TWO. If David Giler is not willing to do the "20 powerloaders vs 20 ALIEN Queens" lets hand it to someone who DOES.
Oh gawd!
This is a trap most likely. But i'd be down with proper bleak AvP film with Aliens weaponry, basically a movie version of AvP 1999, Blomkamp?
No not a trap.
Yes I am biased towards the action orientated ALIENS, as long as the script and cast are sound and the production values balanced and realistic looking.
The PC Games AVP 1999 and AVP2 (2002) were popular because they were faithful to each series to a T.
I'm also geared towards a single ALIEN creating tension (ALIEN and ALIEN 3) but my issue with all films after ALIENS is they are anything but. ALIEN 3 scared me moreso because it was a graphic blood bath than suspenceful.
Quote from: necrotard on Dec 24, 2017, 09:34:22 AMSON OF A BITCH.
It makes no sense for David to breed more aliens from the colonists and then call it a day. He is not going to just potter along to Origae-6 to be an alien king in recluse: he is going to go after the engineers. Given 20 years of wiggle room and the harshness of the atmosphere on LV-426, it is not entirely inconceivable that the Space Jockey is just one of the many victims of the inevitable conflict between the creator aliens and the creator hating robot.
Time is getting short, but the story is still alive.
Lindelof had a plan for the sequels to Prometheus.
and then Ridley decided that "Covenant" was a better idea.
Plans change. all the time.
And given that i liked Covenant a lot more than Prometheus... some changes were probably for the best.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Dec 24, 2017, 01:08:48 PM
Quote from: necrotard on Dec 24, 2017, 09:34:22 AMSON OF A BITCH.
It makes no sense for David to breed more aliens from the colonists and then call it a day. He is not going to just potter along to Origae-6 to be an alien king in recluse: he is going to go after the engineers. Given 20 years of wiggle room and the harshness of the atmosphere on LV-426, it is not entirely inconceivable that the Space Jockey is just one of the many victims of the inevitable conflict between the creator aliens and the creator hating robot.
Time is getting short, but the story is still alive.
And nobody here wants to see that?
No, fans seem to want variations of what we've already seen and the general public just wants superheroes.
Great.
Quote from: AVP-CAPCOM on Dec 24, 2017, 11:59:39 AM
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 24, 2017, 09:55:51 AM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 24, 2017, 09:48:52 AM
Quote from: AVP-CAPCOM on Dec 24, 2017, 06:33:58 AM
Here's what we need.
Expanded ALIENS universe akin to Dark Horse comics based on Blomkamp's concept art, scale and tone. Skip the "Xenomorph Jurassic World raptor squad", or Ripley's biomechanical suit, daft idea.
Make an AVP3 set in the future. Make it dark, violent, using weapon's from ALIENS and updated Minigun from Predator.
Profit.
We need that?
Quote from: AVP-CAPCOM on Dec 24, 2017, 08:21:27 AM
The reason ALIENS was a box office smash was because we saw a bigger and greater threat (ALIEN- QUEEN). Imagine that on a futuristic Earth.
Let's have some scale, like ALIENS EARTH WAR or BOOK TWO. If David Giler is not willing to do the "20 powerloaders vs 20 ALIEN Queens" lets hand it to someone who DOES.
Oh gawd!
This is a trap most likely. But i'd be down with proper bleak AvP film with Aliens weaponry, basically a movie version of AvP 1999, Blomkamp?
No not a trap.
Yes I am biased towards the action orientated ALIENS, as long as the script and cast are sound and the production values balanced and realistic looking.
The PC Games AVP 1999 and AVP2 (2002) were popular because they were faithful to each series to a T.
I'm also geared towards a single ALIEN creating tension (ALIEN and ALIEN 3) but my issue with all films after ALIENS is they are anything but. ALIEN 3 scared me moreso because it was a graphic blood bath than suspenceful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF6An_fs8eA
Let's keep this shit in video-games where it's good and out of movies where it sucks. Speaking of which, I have yet to play the classic AvP games. Gonna put that on my to-do list.
Why would Ridley Scott believe that the Alien Saga is as big as Star Wars?? It's a Completely different genre of movie that is NOT kid friendly. It's also such a niche film series. Dark sci-fi action horror? It's not everyone's cup of tea.
Quote from: AVP-CAPCOM on Dec 24, 2017, 06:33:58 AM
I think Ridley Scott is clutching at straws here.
" the sequel was originally scheduled to begin pre-production in September 2017 but was shelved after the tepid box office response to Alien: Covenant"
"The sequel to Covenant was originally due to start preproduction this month in Sydney. After the box office results filming was cancelled, and a warehouse storage unit full of stuff was auctioned off a few months ago. So the original plan of pumping out another quickly has definitely changed with no immediate plans for anything." (reffering to Prometheus items auctioned off as code that the film had failed).
Also Ridley Scott cancelling his "ALIEN- PARADISE" film that would've been an exploration of the Engineer homeworld.
Listen. Get Disney to make Blomkamp's ALIEN-5 but let's get real not going to happen due to Weaver's supposed AVATAR 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 schedule and Michael Biehn collective ages.
Here's what we need.
Expanded ALIENS universe akin to Dark Horse comics based on Blomkamp's concept art, scale and tone. Skip the "Xenomorph Jurassic World raptor squad", or Ripley's biomechanical suit, daft idea.
Make an AVP3 set in the future. Make it dark, violent, using weapon's from ALIENS and updated Minigun from Predator.
Profit.
Why does everyone believe Blompkamp's would have been a masterpiece? It's now a legendary film that was never made..We have NOO idea what it would have been like. Sure, Blompkamp has passion for the alien but that doesn't translate to a great film. What was the last good blompkamo film? District 9? Also, please no Minigun from predator. Enough with the homages. Give me something original.
I'd love to work on designing/art directing the next alien film!
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Dec 24, 2017, 11:17:11 AM
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 24, 2017, 09:45:37 AM
But it does seem there never was a solid plan with the prequels.
There never was a plan. So much so, that the films weren't even supposed to be prequels at one point:
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-18298709/ridley-scott-says-prometheus-is-not-a-prequel-to-alien (http://www.bbc.com/news/av/entertainment-arts-18298709/ridley-scott-says-prometheus-is-not-a-prequel-to-alien)
Scott can't plan out the next sentence that comes out of his mouth, let alone a film trilogy. It's mind boggling to me that people still take him seriously.
"Prometheus a prequel" - "Prometheus not a prequel" - "The beast is cooked" - "It's all about this guy here *looks at an alien poster*" - "The beast has almost run out" - "He's the best monster ever, really"...
::)
It's mind boggling to me that some people still don't get why Prometheus was downplayed as an ALIEN prequel before release. It was always an ALIEN prequel, but the expectation for it to play out in a certain way made it wiser to create some distance between them in promotional material. Especially given where AvP had driven it.
There's complete consistency on his view on the alien, it was overused, put into theme parks, put into low-brow sci fi. It's image was used and abused. It deserved better service, it's the best monster ever and it should have a better showcase.
There's nothing like blind obstinacy though. ::) indeed.
Quote from: GreybackElder on Dec 24, 2017, 05:57:15 PM
Why would Ridley Scott believe that the Alien Saga is as big as Star Wars?? It's a Completely different genre of movie that is NOT kid friendly. It's also such a niche film series. Dark sci-fi action horror? It's not everyone's cup of tea.
Quote from: AVP-CAPCOM on Dec 24, 2017, 06:33:58 AM
I think Ridley Scott is clutching at straws here.
" the sequel was originally scheduled to begin pre-production in September 2017 but was shelved after the tepid box office response to Alien: Covenant"
"The sequel to Covenant was originally due to start preproduction this month in Sydney. After the box office results filming was cancelled, and a warehouse storage unit full of stuff was auctioned off a few months ago. So the original plan of pumping out another quickly has definitely changed with no immediate plans for anything." (reffering to Prometheus items auctioned off as code that the film had failed).
Also Ridley Scott cancelling his "ALIEN- PARADISE" film that would've been an exploration of the Engineer homeworld.
Listen. Get Disney to make Blomkamp's ALIEN-5 but let's get real not going to happen due to Weaver's supposed AVATAR 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 schedule and Michael Biehn collective ages.
Here's what we need.
Expanded ALIENS universe akin to Dark Horse comics based on Blomkamp's concept art, scale and tone. Skip the "Xenomorph Jurassic World raptor squad", or Ripley's biomechanical suit, daft idea.
Make an AVP3 set in the future. Make it dark, violent, using weapon's from ALIENS and updated Minigun from Predator.
Profit.
Why does everyone believe Blompkamp's would have been a masterpiece? It's now a legendary film that was never made..We have NOO idea what it would have been like. Sure, Blompkamp has passion for the alien but that doesn't translate to a great film. What was the last good blompkamo film? District 9? Also, please no Minigun from predator. Enough with the homages. Give me something original.
Even in this post clamoring for Blomkamp's involvement, AVP-CAPCOM points out that half of the concept sketches from him were concerning and looked dumb.
I honestly don't know where this franchise can go. I don't know how much else you can do with these aliens. But so far, all I've seen on these boards are "more predator, more space marines, more power loaders, more queens, more aliens by the thousands."
But I feel like we got the first two parts of a new, interesting trilogy that had something new to say and very few people seem to give a shit that it won't be finished. They just want to ignore it and start something new.
Well I'm sorry, but I don't think Hollywood is going to see this the way fans do. They see poor numbers from Covenant and they don't go "oh, time to give the series to new directors." They say "well I guess the alien isn't profitable anymore. Greenlight more X-Men."
Quote from: GreybackElder on Dec 24, 2017, 05:57:15 PM
District 9?
Alien Nation crossed with The Fly crossed with City of God. It even had a mech suit/powerloader in it from Aliens. Is ok movie, I don't get all the praise though.
IT has grossed more than JUSTICE LEAGUE worldwide... just because something is R rated doesn't mean it can't reach a substantial amount of people.
Alien and Aliens were in the top 10 highest grossing movies of their respective years and Prometheus comps are Star Trek 09 and Batman Begins. But instead of Ridley parlaying Prometheus into a The Dark Knight-quality movie he made something Alice Through the Looking Glass-tier.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 24, 2017, 09:10:13 PM
IT has grossed more than JUSTICE LEAGUE worldwide... just because something is R rated doesn't mean it can't reach a substantial amount of people.
You picked one of only two films in the 2017 top 20 box office that were R-rated. So your analogy simply backs that a R rated film being big box office is an exception to the rule.........not a common pattern.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 24, 2017, 09:10:13 PM
IT has grossed more than JUSTICE LEAGUE worldwide... just because something is R rated doesn't mean it can't reach a substantial amount of people.
Alien and Aliens were in the top 10 highest grossing movies of their respective years and Prometheus comps are Star Trek 09 and Batman Begins. But instead of Ridley parlaying Prometheus into a The Dark Knight-quality movie he made something Alice Through the Looking Glass-tier.
The praise that The Dark Knight gets, or indeed any Christopher Nolan film aside from Memento, bewilders me. Most I'd describe as grand in scale but utterly cold and unengaging. Different strokes
Unengaging and pretentious. The opposite of the Alien prequels.
Nolan sucks. Even Interstellar, which is great in many ways, could've been a genuinely classic movie if Nolan had made it more like his brother's original script instead of the ending being some shitty "Love trumps everything" bullshit.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Dec 24, 2017, 09:39:51 PM
You picked one of only two films in the 2017 top 20 box office that were R-rated. So your analogy simply backs that a R rated film being big box office is an exception to the rule.........not a common pattern.
The claim wasn't based on what percentage of the top 20 consists of R rated films. That's a bad analogy to begin with, since it has to account for the percentage of R rated film out of the total films examined. If most of the films examined are PG films, it's only natural for most of the films on the list to be PG films.
Rather, the assertion was that an R rated film can be a box office hit, which is correct. Not only do Logan and IT show it to be the case this year, but you can actually go back and check every year in the past and it's guaranteed to find R rated films doing great at the box office. Here's a nice list to demonstrate:
https://www.the-numbers.com/market/mpaa-rating/R-(US) (https://www.the-numbers.com/market/mpaa-rating/R-(US))
The more serious mistake in this regard, in my opinion, is looking at the box office total in the first place, as it disregards the film's earnings in proportion to its budget. R rated films are often made on a lower budget, so not making it into the top 20 box office chart is completely irrelevant to them. For example: Get Out, which didn't make the top 20 box office, made $254,329,516 worldwide on a $4.5 million budget. That's 56 (!!!) times its original budget. To put that figure into perspective: Star Wars:The Force Awakens (Couldn't use The Last Jedi because the film just got out) made $2,068,223,624 on a $245 million budget. That's 8 times its original budget. The Force Awakens needed to do 7 times the figures it ended up earning just to be in the same league as Get Out.
"Make an AVP3 set in the future. Make it dark, violent, using weapon's from ALIENS and updated Minigun from Predator."
Everything sounds good except the minigun. Throwbacks and easter eggs tend to take me out of the experience. Kind of like when Samuel L. Jackson said "hold onto your butts" in skull island. I thought about Jurassic Park and then had to get back into the movie all over again, which ruined the first encounter scene for me. But AVP territory is most likely where we're headed. It's a solid bet in todays market. Violent creature content, with gunfights and /sci-fi horror elements. It just covers so many areas. The Alien fans, the Predator fans, folks that love space movies, folks that love monster movies, horror lovers, gore hounds, gamers, etc.
Should Predator 2018 embrace the "fun" aspect of films like Aliens and AVPR, and do well financially, AVP3 will likely make the Disney radar whenever these franchises are brought up in the future. Of course, Predator 2018 will need to have a good ad campaign if it wants to draw the crowds, and I'm excited to see that first trailer.
Of course, should Disney make movies like Alien, Aliens and AVPR, we'll have some people going nuts that the films are either just visual crack with no substance, or they lack the narrative depth of the prequels. But the prequels have to end someday. I have the utmost respect for Mr. Scott as a director. He makes wonderful non-alien films, (The Martian, Hannibal, Gladiator, Blade Runner, etc.). I respectfully look forward to the day he moves on from the Aliens Universe so that we can have a new shot at some excellent Alien and Non-Alien films at the same time. And if anyone from Disney ever reads this,
AVP: Read the first book.
Alien 5 - See Gibson's Alien 3 script.
And A Merry Christmas To Everybody As Well. :)
Quote from: Huggs on Dec 25, 2017, 04:36:19 AM
"Make an AVP3 set in the future. Make it dark, violent, using weapon's from ALIENS and updated Minigun from Predator."
David Cronenberg directing an AVP film is a wet dream of mine.
Quote from: Alionic on Dec 25, 2017, 05:48:27 AM
Quote from: Huggs on Dec 25, 2017, 04:36:19 AM
"Make an AVP3 set in the future. Make it dark, violent, using weapon's from ALIENS and updated Minigun from Predator."
David Cronenberg directing an AVP film is a wet dream of mine.
You and me both. Can you imagine 80s Cronenberg with that property? I'm gonna geek out just thinking about it.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Dec 25, 2017, 03:02:36 AM
If most of the films examined are PG films, it's only natural for most of the films on the list to be PG films.
I didn't look at the top 20 PG films in 2017, I looked at the top 20 films total in 2017, and only two were R-rated, hence my comment, "an exception to the rule."
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Dec 25, 2017, 03:02:36 AM
Rather, the assertion was that an R rated film can be a box office hit, which is correct.
That's not what he said.
But I think the misunderstanding is on my part. He said an R-Rated can reach a significant amount of people. Somehow I saw that as big box office. Perhaps he simply meant a decent to good attendance that yielded a healthy net profit.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Dec 25, 2017, 03:02:36 AM
Not only do Logan and IT show it to be the case this year, but you can actually go back and check every year in the past and it's guaranteed to find R rated films doing great at the box office. Here's a nice list to demonstrate:
The problem with that list is it's exclusively showcasing only R-Rated films and they had to go back over twenty years just to come up with 25 R-rated films. But looking at all film during that same time span, and R-rated films' presence shrivels up. For example, clicking on the first movie on your list, Passion of the Christ - impressive numbers. But if you look at 2004, you will find nary an R-rated film in at least the top 50.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Dec 25, 2017, 03:02:36 AM
The more serious mistake in this regard, in my opinion, is looking at the box office total in the first place, as it disregards the film's earnings in proportion to its budget.
Yea, I have no dispute R films can generate a healthy "net profit." But he wasn't talking about net profit, he was talking about R rated can reach a substantial amount of people. The missing piece here is what is his intent when he says, "substantial amount of people".
Quote from: SM on Dec 24, 2017, 07:51:28 AM
Adjusted for inflation, Alien 3 and Resurrection would've both been north of $100m.
QuoteNow that Disney is in control this franchise is going to get watered down and commercialized.
When were they not commercialised?
The Alien movies are not commercialized in the same manner as say Transformers, Jurassic Park, Star Wars, or the Marvel movies. I suspect Disney will try to spin this franchise into a watered down version of itself to appeal to the lowest common denominator. They'll sprinkle nostalgia in and package it like they've done with the new Star Wars movies. Most general audiences won't even care as long as the movie looks slick and has awesome special effects. Ridley's latest comments seem to reflect that train of thought. The fact is that Alien is not in the same league as Star Wars or Star Trek on a commercial level. I hope they do right by these franchises, but the Disney Star Wars movies haven't inspired any faith. I guess we'll see. If we get Alien 5 with Weaver, Beihn, marines, and queens then it'll be pretty obvious what is going on. If they let Ridley finish his trilogy I'll tip my cap to Disney.
Sir Ridley Scott Thinks Alien Should Be On "Same Level For Fans as Star Trek and Star Wars"
PLEASE NO! Prometheus and Covenant were the shame where Scott kills own franchise. I will not go to see new Covenant 2 3 or 10 anymore.
At least Prometheus and Covenant were made for adults, it's likely Disney will turn it into a kiddie franchise.
It's not likely at all. That's a knee-jerk response to the Disney news. They've already said they're not messing with Deadpool and we've already seen pretty violent Marvel properties put out in NetFlix. We also know that they've owned Touchstone, Miramax, Dimension films in the past and they put out horrors and adult films. There's zero indication that Disney will turn the series into "a kiddie franchise."
If Fox made AVP PG-13, then it's entirely possible Disney will make Alien/Predator PG-13.
One out of an entire series. Over more than a decade ago.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 25, 2017, 10:53:21 AM
If Fox made AVP PG-13, then it's entirely possible Disney will make Alien/Predator PG-13.
Isn't there an R-Rated cut on dvd?
There's one with rubbish CG blood added but I'm not sure it'd be enough to get an R-rating.
EDIT - the recut was in fact unrated.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Dec 25, 2017, 05:34:44 PM
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 25, 2017, 10:53:21 AM
If Fox made AVP PG-13, then it's entirely possible Disney will make Alien/Predator PG-13.
Isn't there an R-Rated cut on dvd?
There is no R rated cut. It was clearly shot for PG-13 rating.
"...it's likely Disney will turn it into a kiddie franchise. "
I kinda doubt it. Not to say that a pg-13 AVP couldn't almost work. The script is the most important thing though, that and a good director. Without both of those, all is for naught. But, I can see how the whole pg-13 AVP thing is rather silly. 13 year olds can play games now where they do-in 600 people in a single level while they cuss-out strangers over the internet, but we have to water down adult material and concepts so the studio can get that family money? I don't see Disney doing that with A or P, or AVP. Not after Logan and Deadpool. There are enough Star Wars, Marvel, Jurassic, and Animated movies to satisfy that younger niche for the studios. Disney is a money making giant, and this isn't star wars. This is very mature content, and there's only so much you can change about that before it becomes unrecognizable. You can change the story of a pg-13 movie, but you don't change the tone of what should be an "R" rated film. If it ain't broke, then they're not going to fix it.
PG-13 isn't the death sentence to horror/action movies it once was. 'The Ring' is PG-13 and it's scary as shit. Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom has plenty of blood and it's PG-13. You can get away with a lot with PG-13 nowadays.
I mean don't get me wrong, I'd prefer it if Alien/Predator/AvP movies were rated-R, but in the right hands I wouldn't be opposed to PG-13.
If you want action and jump scares, PG-13 if fine.
But for body horror you need R.
For example, they could have cut down the Shaw Medpod sequence to get PG-13, but that would have watered it down and lessened that scene, which is why they decided on R.
For body-horror, maybe, depending on how it's handled, A lot of what makes horror work is what's not shown. PG-13 doesn't automatically mean jump scares, there are a bunch of quality PG-13 horror movies that are scary because of the sense of looming dread, tension, and as mentioned, what isn't shown.
Shit, aside from the rampant profanity and the colonist chestburster scene in 'Aliens', that movie is practically bloodless. A reworking of the dialogue would turn that movie into an easy PG-13 by today's standards. Even Bishop getting torn in half wouldn't trigger an R-rateing, as the MPAA only cares about actual genuine bona-fide red human blood when it comes to gore. You can show aliens or robots being blasted apart and dismembered to your heart's content, and it's not considered "gory".
Today's PG-13 horror means jump scares, because that's what is popular now.
Some of my favourite horror films are from the 1930s which are all about atmosphere, but the kids don't like that stuff. Incidentally, those films were X rated when released but now they're G/PG.
Yes, Aliens could be PG-13 if you removed the swearing. Aliens was often shown on prime time television with the curse words edited out to get an acceptable rating so the kiddies could watch it. None of the gore or violence shown in Aliens qualifies for R rating.
But Aliens is primarily an action movie, and it downplays the body horror and disturbing aspects of Alien. If it weren't for Alien 3, which brought back the extreme gore, the Alien franchise could have easily gone into kiddie territory, yes.
Should it be on the same level? Hard to say. Alien and Aliens are two of the most important Sci Fi movies like ever! Then you got the rest of the movies. While I like Ridley's spirit let's be real here. Alien and Aliens are rated R movies. It's not just for body horror either. You guys are forgetting the swearing. While there wasn't much in Alien....there's a ton in Aliens. Do you guys think Hudson would have been as awesome without getting to drop F bombs left and right???
Then there's the lifecycle to be taken into account as well. You don't get Alien without face hugging and chest bursting. Add in the dreaded face punctures done by the adult aliens. I don't think this series works unless it's rated R. AVP might have been good if they added blood and swearing. I still think the AVP story was Great! It was lacking in other departments which lead to its disappointment.
Alien does'nt need a reboot. It needs to be revitalized. Needs a new director with a new vision of Science Fiction.
However Ridley's Prometheus trilogy still isn't finished. I say give him a small budget and let him finish it. Keep Alien out of the title, and release it in January. If it's amazing then it will make money...if not then you can prob at least break even. Then sit back and get ready for Disney to roll out the red carpet and give Alien the treatment it deserves. If they were smart they would get a new director with a new vision of Sci Fi.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 26, 2017, 01:05:48 PM
Today's PG-13 horror means jump scares, because that's what is popular now.
Some of my favourite horror films are from the 1930s which are all about atmosphere, but the kids don't like that stuff. Incidentally, those films were X rated when released but now they're G/PG.
Yes, Aliens could be PG-13 if you removed the swearing. Aliens was often shown on prime time television with the curse words edited out to get an acceptable rating so the kiddies could watch it. None of the gore or violence shown in Aliens qualifies for R rating.
But Aliens is primarily an action movie, and it downplays the body horror and disturbing aspects of Alien. If it weren't for Alien 3, which brought back the extreme gore, the Alien franchise could have easily gone into kiddie territory, yes.
'Aliens' isn't a kiddie movie just because it doesn't have gore, or because you can edit the swearing out and air it on cable. :D
Have you seen the movie 'Lights Out'? It's a PG-13 movie, has next to no jump scares, and it's scary as shit. That movie came out last year.
Other recent winners that come to mind are 'Insidious', and 'Mama'.
The MPAA is wildly inconsistent in its ratings, and filmmakers with enough pull can argue for movies to get rated pretty much whatever they want. 'The Texas Chain Saw Massacre', a movie with literally no blood, no profanity, no nudity or sexual content, and no people killed on-screen, got an R-rating because the MPAA thought it was "too intense" for a PG (and the PG-13 rating didn't exist yet). Meanwhile Jaws, a movie chock full of blood and body parts and people getting maimed by a shark, got a PG.
Again, in today's market, you can get away with a lot with a PG-13 rating and it's entirely possible to make a genuinely scary horror movie without it being R. Here's a few fun lists for you to check out that are about that exact topic:
http://collider.com/pg-13-scary-horror-movies/#lights-out
https://www.ranker.com/list/best-pg-13-horror-film-movies/reference (this is a community driven list, and I
strongly disagree with a lot of the rankings, but oh well)
https://screenrant.com/best-scariest-pg-13-horror-movies/
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 09:19:46 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 23, 2017, 08:46:37 PM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 23, 2017, 08:09:31 PM
Quote from: Buttz on Dec 23, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
Scott is has made the Alien uninteresting.
Salvaged it from endless generic runarounds IMHO.
Aliens, Alien 3, Alien:Resurrection? or all of them?
Alien3 has some interesting ideas so I admire some aspects of it, all the others just rehash Alien to lesser effect.
Alien 3 -Assembly Cut- is a masterpiece, to me the best of the franchise.
Disney gonna turn Alien in a joke, a quip fest, exactly like the MCU and the Star Wars Universe.
I don't think Alien can rise in franchise stature to the size or fanbase of Star Wars or Star Trek. That's also not a bad thing. For all the money it's made, the Star Wars franchise has suffered greatly since TESB, and it has not materially improved since Disney took over. Star Trek... I don't know what that is any more. I think it died and its bloated corpse is now walking around.
I think as a franchise, Dark Horse had the right idea. Not every story was a winner, but the idea was right. The Alien has become a fact of life in the universe, and humanity struggles to deal with its presence. With hypercapitalism as a driving force, corporations try to profit from it (often with horrible results). The military tries to dominate it and utilize it as a weapon of war. Failing that, the military must defend against it. Ordinary people try to survive it.
In that respect, AVP also works in the DH mythos as the Predators have a symbiotic relationship with both the Alien and with humans. There is room for stories about the androids in human culture, and it makes sense to say something about the Engineers. There are questions that could be answered. How is it that humans have spaceships with casually perfect artificial gravity and FTL drive but weapons are not really much more advanced than what we've got today? I'd go with "we stole it from these more advanced other races." How about that hypersleep? You know freezing a body actually blows out the cell walls as the water inside freezes. Future humans solved that without a blood-to-chemical transfusion. That's sort of interesting. And the creature. Even with all Scott has done, the creature is still sort of an enigma. Why that physical form? And so on. Of course, it's easier to make all that work in comics. Lower budgets, lower financial expectations. But it shows clearly that Alien can exist as a larger franchise.
I will add my bias: I like the original movie the best. I like AVP, too, for what it tried to do and for the places where it really did succeed. I like the rest in varying degrees of not as much for a list of reasons far too long to post here. YMMV and that's fine.
I dont get why everyone is worried about Disney having aquired Fox, since they used to own Miramax. Fox will go/stay in that direction
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Dec 26, 2017, 05:15:26 PM
I dont get why everyone is worried about Disney having aquired Fox, since they used to own Miramax. Fox will go/stay in that direction
We do not know what actual effect Disney ownership will have on Fox products. I think there is adequate evidence to support the idea that Disney might strongarm directors or even replace directors to get a finished product that meets Disney prerequisites. Perhaps Disney will remain hands-off, but it is equally likely Disney will assign an exec like Kathleen Kennedy to enforce Disney's interests in all things Alien.
maybe yeah, but theyve done that with Pixar and Marvel by getting someone who knows and cares about the history
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Dec 26, 2017, 06:29:11 PM
maybe yeah, but theyve done that with Pixar and Marvel by getting someone who knows and cares about the history
Pick one.
Quote from: Beatnation on Dec 26, 2017, 07:58:54 PM
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Dec 26, 2017, 06:29:11 PM
maybe yeah, but theyve done that with Pixar and Marvel by getting someone who knows and cares about the history
Pick one.
Im talking about the movies, not the comics
QuoteI don't think Alien can rise in franchise stature to the size or fanbase of Star Wars or Star Trek.
It can't because it's R-rated which disqualifies a large chunk of your audience. I can't take my children to an Alien film (maybe the eldest if she was interested); I can take them to Star Wars or Trek film though. There's five of us who go and watch Star Wars releases. When Covenant came out I went on my own.
It can be bigger than it is though and if Disney decides to emulate Aliens - it would likely do the trick.
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Dec 26, 2017, 08:37:20 PM
Quote from: Beatnation on Dec 26, 2017, 07:58:54 PM
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Dec 26, 2017, 06:29:11 PM
maybe yeah, but theyve done that with Pixar and Marvel by getting someone who knows and cares about the history
Pick one.
Im talking about the movies, not the comics
Talking about the movies here, do you really think they are good or even decent movie and not generic bullcrap for the masses??, well... to each his own I guess...
Alien, will never, and can never reach the mainstream penetration Star Wars has and there's nothing wrong with that. This is pure damage control on the part of scott trying to spin his "beast is cooked" comment. Best monster ever, right. Says the guy who completely took them out of Prometheus, bullied his way back to the directors chair when he caught wind of blomkamps film and awkwardly forced a xenomorph in the trash fire that was alien covenant. I'm glad fox put his "vision" on hold. Maybe someone from Disney who actually cares about the franchise will do something.
Quote from: Beatnation on Dec 26, 2017, 09:48:25 PM
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Dec 26, 2017, 08:37:20 PM
Quote from: Beatnation on Dec 26, 2017, 07:58:54 PM
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Dec 26, 2017, 06:29:11 PM
maybe yeah, but theyve done that with Pixar and Marvel by getting someone who knows and cares about the history
Pick one.
Im talking about the movies, not the comics
Talking about the movies here, do you really think they are good or even decent movie and not egenric bullcrap for the masses??, well... to each his own I guess...
I love the Marvel movies and don't find them egenric at all.
Quote from: SM on Dec 26, 2017, 10:13:26 PM
Quote from: Beatnation on Dec 26, 2017, 09:48:25 PM
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Dec 26, 2017, 08:37:20 PM
Quote from: Beatnation on Dec 26, 2017, 07:58:54 PM
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Dec 26, 2017, 06:29:11 PM
maybe yeah, but theyve done that with Pixar and Marvel by getting someone who knows and cares about the history
Pick one.
Im talking about the movies, not the comics
Talking about the movies here, do you really think they are good or even decent movie and not egenric bullcrap for the masses??, well... to each his own I guess...
I love the Marvel movies and don't find them egenric at all.
You surely love AlienS too right? probably your favorite of the franchise or *tied* (ha) with Alien, Marvel movies are just generic kiddie films with no stakes whatoever.
But I guess you are happy Disney own Fox now right?
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/cfe545bbc3efa47dabfb0d732433da94/tenor.gif?itemid=6083967)
No, Alien is my favourite.
You seem a little threatened by the opinions of others however.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 26, 2017, 12:33:57 PM
For body-horror, maybe, depending on how it's handled, A lot of what makes horror work is what's not shown. PG-13 doesn't automatically mean jump scares, there are a bunch of quality PG-13 horror movies that are scary because of the sense of looming dread, tension, and as mentioned, what isn't shown.
Shit, aside from the rampant profanity and the colonist chestburster scene in 'Aliens', that movie is practically bloodless. A reworking of the dialogue would turn that movie into an easy PG-13 by today's standards. Even Bishop getting torn in half wouldn't trigger an R-rateing, as the MPAA only cares about actual genuine bona-fide red human blood when it comes to gore. You can show aliens or robots being blasted apart and dismembered to your heart's content, and it's not considered "gory".
All this undoubtedly carefully planned by James Cameron. Imagine if Hicks or Newt got ripped apart by the Alien queen, the movie wouldn't been anywhere close to as popular as it is now. The soccer moms in the audience would've raged and screamed, but by making the victim a robot that can take being ripped in two, he includes as much of the audience as possible while still doing a good job showcasing the queen's power.
Also, using Logan and Deadpool as indicators that R-rated movies can do well is a pretty bad representative sample given that both of those movies are capeshit diarrhea which nowadays audiences keep craving in higher and higher doses.
"Disney gonna turn Alien in a joke, a quip fest, exactly like the MCU and the Star Wars Universe"
It's all just conjecture really, until a movie is green lit or an announcement is made by Disney. Will money or audience satisfaction be the big factor in any film they make though? If they intend to make as much money as possible, they will need to expand the viewer scope and that will probably result in a pg-13 AVP film or something that is similar to Aliens.
Honestly, it could be years before Disney even thinks about making an Alien or Predator film. God willing, Scott's lack of faith in the xenomorph and the sheer boring and convoluted weirdness of the prequels has not done long term damage and rendered the franchise undesirable to Disney. I mean, David is now making Blade Runner references and kissing on his twin. I'm really hoping Disney will do right by the franchise, and I honestly think they can. For all the flak movies like the Marvel films and such get, they're basically considered watchable movies in general. That's at least a step ahead of where we are now with the Alien prequels. Yes, we may one day be seeing a giant mech suit charge into a hive, but gracious, if it's either that or Fassbender playing the piano in his tights again, I know which one I'm pickin. Oh boy, I set myself up with that one.
"Dark Horse had the right idea. Not every story was a winner, but the idea was right. The Alien has become a fact of life in the universe, and humanity struggles to deal with its presence."
This. I've said it before. Give me a random group of people and a single alien or several, and I'm good. This universe can easily function as a sandbox style. I'd love to see Rogue, Nightmare Asylum, or Out of the Shadows given the film treatment.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 26, 2017, 01:39:55 PM
'Aliens' isn't a kiddie movie just because it doesn't have gore, or because you can edit the swearing out and air it on cable. :D
James Cameron shot Aliens to be a family friendly movie. Remember, this was back in 1985 when the PG-13 rating had just been introduced.
Aliens was also the only Alien movie to be shown on prime time television back in the early 90s. I don't know about now as I no longer watch television.
Now The Terminator had gore, so his comments about gore only creating disgust don't make much sense. He obviously thought it worked in The Terminator.
QuoteHave you seen the movie 'Lights Out'? It's a PG-13 movie, has next to no jump scares, and it's scary as shit. That movie came out last year.
Other recent winners that come to mind are 'Insidious', and 'Mama'.
No I haven't seen any of these
QuoteThe MPAA is wildly inconsistent in its ratings, and filmmakers with enough pull can argue for movies to get rated pretty much whatever they want. 'The Texas Chain Saw Massacre', a movie with literally no blood, no profanity, no nudity or sexual content, and no people killed on-screen, got an R-rating because the MPAA thought it was "too intense" for a PG (and the PG-13 rating didn't exist yet). Meanwhile Jaws, a movie chock full of blood and body parts and people getting maimed by a shark, got a PG.
Texas Chainsaw Massacre is about a family of cannibals who torture and eat people. Not really fit content for children.
And Jaws did not have that much blood or gore. But the rating system has evolved over time.
QuoteAgain, in today's market, you can get away with a lot with a PG-13 rating and it's entirely possible to make a genuinely scary horror movie without it being R. Here's a few fun lists for you to check out that are about that exact topic:
http://collider.com/pg-13-scary-horror-movies/#lights-out
https://www.ranker.com/list/best-pg-13-horror-film-movies/reference (this is a community driven list, and I strongly disagree with a lot of the rankings, but oh well)
https://screenrant.com/best-scariest-pg-13-horror-movies/
I never said you can't make a good PG-13 horror. It's just with Alien and it's emphasis on body horror that it should be R.
Most of these PG-13 horrors are supernatural.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 26, 2017, 10:24:50 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 26, 2017, 12:33:57 PM
For body-horror, maybe, depending on how it's handled, A lot of what makes horror work is what's not shown. PG-13 doesn't automatically mean jump scares, there are a bunch of quality PG-13 horror movies that are scary because of the sense of looming dread, tension, and as mentioned, what isn't shown.
Shit, aside from the rampant profanity and the colonist chestburster scene in 'Aliens', that movie is practically bloodless. A reworking of the dialogue would turn that movie into an easy PG-13 by today's standards. Even Bishop getting torn in half wouldn't trigger an R-rateing, as the MPAA only cares about actual genuine bona-fide red human blood when it comes to gore. You can show aliens or robots being blasted apart and dismembered to your heart's content, and it's not considered "gory".
All this undoubtedly carefully planned by James Cameron. Imagine if Hicks or Newt got ripped apart by the Alien queen, the movie wouldn't been anywhere close to as popular as it is now. The soccer moms in the audience would've raged and screamed, but by making the victim a robot that can take being ripped in two, he includes as much of the audience as possible while still doing a good job showcasing the queen's power.
Also, using Logan and Deadpool as indicators that R-rated movies can do well is a pretty bad representative sample given that both of those movies are capeshit diarrhea which nowadays audiences keep craving in higher and higher doses.
How many soccer moms do you think were watching Aliens?
"Now The Terminator had gore"
It's really hard to believe we went from that to Arnold saying "talk to the hand" in T3. Talk about a franchise that went south after the first two movies.
Don't want to interrupt the truly interesting argument about the possibility of making good PG-13 horror films under Disney, but I do want to throw in a crazy theory:
What if...- and I know it sounds crazy, but what if...someone at Disney had actually heard about the Alien franchise? Maybe even, god forbid, seen a film or two? What if that guy mentioned how it's a violent and bloody franchise and therefore requires an R rating, before buying it?
What if the execs at Disney didn't just blindly throw billions of dollars at Fox for the giggles? Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, the people at Disney know what they bought?
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 26, 2017, 10:24:50 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 26, 2017, 12:33:57 PM
For body-horror, maybe, depending on how it's handled, A lot of what makes horror work is what's not shown. PG-13 doesn't automatically mean jump scares, there are a bunch of quality PG-13 horror movies that are scary because of the sense of looming dread, tension, and as mentioned, what isn't shown.
Shit, aside from the rampant profanity and the colonist chestburster scene in 'Aliens', that movie is practically bloodless. A reworking of the dialogue would turn that movie into an easy PG-13 by today's standards. Even Bishop getting torn in half wouldn't trigger an R-rateing, as the MPAA only cares about actual genuine bona-fide red human blood when it comes to gore. You can show aliens or robots being blasted apart and dismembered to your heart's content, and it's not considered "gory".
All this undoubtedly carefully planned by James Cameron. Imagine if Hicks or Newt got ripped apart by the Alien queen, the movie wouldn't been anywhere close to as popular as it is now. The soccer moms in the audience would've raged and screamed, but by making the victim a robot that can take being ripped in two, he includes as much of the audience as possible while still doing a good job showcasing the queen's power.
Also, using Logan and Deadpool as indicators that R-rated movies can do well is a pretty bad representative sample given that both of those movies are capeshit diarrhea which nowadays audiences keep craving in higher and higher doses.
It wouldn't have been as popular because that's a crap idea.
There is also that.
Quote from: SM on Dec 26, 2017, 10:13:26 PM
Quote from: Beatnation on Dec 26, 2017, 09:48:25 PM
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Dec 26, 2017, 08:37:20 PM
Quote from: Beatnation on Dec 26, 2017, 07:58:54 PM
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Dec 26, 2017, 06:29:11 PM
maybe yeah, but theyve done that with Pixar and Marvel by getting someone who knows and cares about the history
Pick one.
Im talking about the movies, not the comics
Talking about the movies here, do you really think they are good or even decent movie and not egenric bullcrap for the masses??, well... to each his own I guess...
I love the Marvel movies and don't find them egenric at all.
Holy f**king shit, SM and I agree on something. :P
The Marvel movies are great and I hope they keep making them forever. Yeah they can be a little formulaic at times (Ant-Man is basically 'Iron Man 1' with a new coat of paint, ditto to a fair degree with 'Doctor Strange') but when the formula works and is entertaining, I don't really care. If the cake tastes great, keep spoon-feeding me that same cake over and over and over.
And sometimes they do go outside the mold (Captain America: Winter Soldier, Iron Man 3, Thor Ragnarok) and they've knocked it out of the park every time as far as I'm concerned, so whether they stick with "the formula" or they try something new, I'm not at all worried.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Dec 26, 2017, 11:03:39 PM
Don't want to interrupt the truly interesting argument about the possibility of making good PG-13 horror films under Disney, but I do want to throw in a crazy theory:
What if...- and I know it sounds crazy, but what if...someone at Disney had actually heard about the Alien franchise? Maybe even, god forbid, seen a film or two? What if that guy mentioned how it's a violent and bloody franchise and therefore requires an R rating, before buying it?
What if the execs at Disney didn't just blindly throw billions of dollars at Fox for the giggles? Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, the people at Disney know what they bought?
Whoa whoa whoa, this is the INTERNET, we don't allow reasonable opinions here!
Quote from: Huggs on Dec 26, 2017, 10:33:46 PM
I'm really hoping Disney will do right by the franchise, and I honestly think they can. For all the flak movies like the Marvel films and such get, they're basically considered watchable movies in general. That's at least a step ahead of where we are now with the Alien prequels. Yes, we may one day be seeing a giant mech suit charge into a hive, but gracious, if it's either that or Fassbender playing the piano in his tights again, I know which one I'm picking.
Fassbender at the piano all the way.
Too many kids post here I think, they want Marvel superhero movies not Alien. They want movies for kids, not adults.
Quote from: Gash on Dec 26, 2017, 11:58:03 PM
Quote from: Huggs on Dec 26, 2017, 10:33:46 PM
I'm really hoping Disney will do right by the franchise, and I honestly think they can. For all the flak movies like the Marvel films and such get, they're basically considered watchable movies in general. That's at least a step ahead of where we are now with the Alien prequels. Yes, we may one day be seeing a giant mech suit charge into a hive, but gracious, if it's either that or Fassbender playing the piano in his tights again, I know which one I'm picking.
Fassbender at the piano all the way.
More Wagner or perhaps some of Richard Clayderman's greatest hits?
Quote from: Huggs on Dec 26, 2017, 10:56:20 PM
It's really hard to believe we went from that to Arnold saying "talk to the hand" in T3. Talk about a franchise that went south after the first two movies.
I thought I saw someone mention in the politics forum you were banned. Welcome back.
Different member, Bio. That's Hubbs.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scifimoviezone.com%2FMuttley.png&hash=7370dbf61171658bc53ae1bfc5dd0477fede66ae)
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 27, 2017, 12:16:33 AM
Too many kids post here I think, they want Marvel superhero movies not Alien. They want movies for kids, not adults.
How old are you?
Just as a litmus test, how old do you think SM is? Or me? :)
Quote from: SM on Dec 27, 2017, 12:24:27 AM
Quote from: Gash on Dec 26, 2017, 11:58:03 PM
Quote from: Huggs on Dec 26, 2017, 10:33:46 PM
I'm really hoping Disney will do right by the franchise, and I honestly think they can. For all the flak movies like the Marvel films and such get, they're basically considered watchable movies in general. That's at least a step ahead of where we are now with the Alien prequels. Yes, we may one day be seeing a giant mech suit charge into a hive, but gracious, if it's either that or Fassbender playing the piano in his tights again, I know which one I'm picking.
Fassbender at the piano all the way.
More Wagner or perhaps some of Richard Clayderman's greatest hits?
Wagner, Clayderman, Bobby Crush Mrs Mills, anything is better than exosuits fighting alien hordes headed by a queen in a hive.
I've always considered the Alien Saga superior to Star Wars and Star Trek, however due to Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection sullying the franchises' legacy its hard to respect the series. If only Alien 3 and Alien 4 featured a Xenomorph Earth infestation and the Xenomorph home world, then an Alien 5 featuring Space Jockeys and the Xenomorph's origins then this series would of been PERFECT!
Also Prometheus, Covenant, Awakening, and Paradise can still exist as side story's to further flush out the Universe without featuring the ALIEN itself being to prominently used, again they too would have better thought out story's
"Different member, Bio. That's Hubbs."
Thank you Hicks.
"Fassbender at the piano all the way"
I'll admit, it was a gorgeous piano.
" anything is better than exosuits fighting alien hordes headed by a queen in a hive"
Truth. Well, anything except the prequels. Alien 1979 and Alien 3 being my preferred direction. Otherwise, I'm right there with ya.
"Too many kids post here I think, they want Marvel superhero movies not Alien. They want movies for kids, not adults."
It's been a good while since I was considered a kid for sure. I'm at that age where people are starting to call me "sir", but all the old guys are still calling me "son". I dig the Marvel movies, but in no way do I want anything like that for the Alien franchise.
"The sequel to Covenant was originally due to start preproduction this month in Sydney. After the box office results filming was cancelled, and a warehouse storage unit full of stuff was auctioned off a few months ago. So the original plan of pumping out another quickly has definitely changed with no immediate plans for anything."
Well thank god! please be true.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 27, 2017, 12:16:33 AM
Too many kids post here I think, they want Marvel superhero movies not Alien. They want movies for kids, not adults.
I knew that single line would make people get...
(https://m.popkey.co/71acee/l3ol6.gif)
Congratz!
It's so much simpler than contributing anything worthwhile isn't it?
I truly hope we get a sequel that just ties up the prequels and can find a balance that makes it a film most fans can finally agree on. Between the backlash of Prometheus and Covenant I'm assuming Scott will have an idea of what to do next. (at least I'm hoping the direction it goes brings back elements from Prometheus)
Who the heck wants a sequel to Covenant with the way it ended. So let me guess... the colonists get infected and someone has to save the day, and it leads into LV-426 in Alien? Ridley is so obsessed with that backdoor shit. Screw that. Damon had the right idea. Run tangentially, not right behind.
Not to mention Daniels is awful. Merrrrrrr cabinbythelake merrrr canyagiveagirlahandhereha!
Ugh. And David snapping the robot blood off of the flute was even wrong. Three snaps? One would've been sufficient. And much cooler. One would've felt right. Three was gratuitous. Which was keeping in line with the film. "Xenos, yes??? XENOS!!!"
One wrong note ruins the whole symphony. Come on.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 27, 2017, 07:26:27 AM
Merrrrrrr cabinbythelake merrrr canyagiveagirlahandhereha!
"No roomy shuttle!? No fair! Wu-wu-why don't we dwaw stwaws? Sniff-sniff. Me no wanna dwaw stwaws! Me want to kills it. Yea, good idea! Weez gonna kills it!"
I guess we're mocking dialogue. Sounds fun. Who's next?
It's childish and has the effect of making the person who is posting like that look like the fool. Can't stand this "muh" crap as a mocking device.
I'd rather Scott goes back on his Prometheus side-line and make his side movies about David, rather than try and tie directly into the Alien lore. I was really loving Covenant when it was the Prometheus sequel, it's when it shoehorned Aliens in that that film took a dive for me.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Dec 27, 2017, 08:19:16 AM
It's childish and has the effect of making the person who posting like that look like the fool.
That was my point.
PG might be the sweet spot (https://www.thewrap.com/pg-13-vs-r-movies-how-each-rating-stacks-up-at-the-box-office/).
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 27, 2017, 02:16:13 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 27, 2017, 12:16:33 AM
Too many kids post here I think, they want Marvel superhero movies not Alien. They want movies for kids, not adults.
How old are you?
Just as a litmus test, how old do you think SM is? Or me? :)
I'm taking a crack at this challenge. My guess is that SM is around 46 and you are 32?
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 27, 2017, 07:26:27 AM
Who the heck wants a sequel to Covenant with the way it ended. So let me guess... the colonists get infected and someone has to save the day, and it leads into LV-426 in Alien? Ridley is so obsessed with that back foot shit. Screw that. Damon had the right idea. Run tangentially, not right behind.
Not to mention Daniels is awful. Merrrrrrr cabinbythelake merrrr canyagiveagirlahandhereha!
Daniels character felt really out of place in Alien film, those characteristics belong in a sappy soap tv drama. And her scenes were made worse with that super cheesy piano music, and to make matters even worser that piano creeped it's way in to the actual xenomorph birth.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Dec 27, 2017, 11:03:42 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 27, 2017, 02:16:13 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 27, 2017, 12:16:33 AM
Too many kids post here I think, they want Marvel superhero movies not Alien. They want movies for kids, not adults.
How old are you?
Just as a litmus test, how old do you think SM is? Or me? :)
I'm taking a crack at this challenge. My guess is that SM is around 46 and you are 32?
Good guess.
Not correct, but a good guess.
SM is ageless.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 26, 2017, 11:54:37 PM
The Marvel movies are great and I hope they keep making them forever. Yeah they can be a little formulaic at times (Ant-Man is basically 'Iron Man 1' with a new coat of paint, ditto to a fair degree with 'Doctor Strange') but when the formula works and is entertaining, I don't really care. If the cake tastes great, keep spoon-feeding me that same cake over and over and over.
And sometimes they do go outside the mold (Captain America: Winter Soldier, Iron Man 3, Thor Ragnarok) and they've knocked it out of the park every time as far as I'm concerned, so whether they stick with "the formula" or they try something new, I'm not at all worried.
I don't really understand the Marvel hate over here either. They are (mostly) good films, both in their genre and outside it.
Is this a hipster thing? Hating on Marvel, Star Wars and Aliens because they are beloved and commercially successful?
Is it because Ridley Scott didn't suggest it? I've seen tons of posts around here all anxious to see Ridley's third film, where David and his pet alien project were supposed to fight head on with The Blue Man Group.Ltd (you know, kind of similarly to another film series where the Alien was pitted against another type of alien, with humans who had a shared history with the latter being caught in the middle) - but pulse rifles and power loaders?! That's where we draw the line!
When Ridley Scott was talking about making the Alien franchise more like Star Wars, whatever that means, people were cheering him on. Now that Star Wars and Alien are owned by the same people, making the possibility for the two franchises to be as similar as the great visionary Scott had in mind, the same people shudder in fear of the mere thought. What's wrong? Isn't this what you wanted?
I'm for one am happy about the Disney deal. Mainly because I look at Disney's track record:
Marvel films were mostly terrible before Disney bought them - now they are a powerhouse, consistently liked by fans and critics alike.
Disney also bought Pixar, which made great films prior to the purchase, and kept on making great films after the purchase. The main change was that thanks to the purchase, Disney has updated its own animation studio, so now both Disney and Pixar release great animated films on a regular basis.
Then Disney bought Lucasfilm, with the stench of the prequels looming all over the Star Wars franchise. They turned that ship around and now Star Wars is a main event at the cinemas again.
Disney clearly knows how to handle its properties, when Fox had no clue about what to do with Alien and Predator since the 90's. It is the great hope this franchise deserves...and on a personal note, with the way the Alien prequels turned out, there's nothing left to do that could possibly ruin this franchise any further, so the only way to go from here is up.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 26, 2017, 11:54:37 PM
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Dec 26, 2017, 11:03:39 PM
Don't want to interrupt the truly interesting argument about the possibility of making good PG-13 horror films under Disney, but I do want to throw in a crazy theory:
What if...- and I know it sounds crazy, but what if...someone at Disney had actually heard about the Alien franchise? Maybe even, god forbid, seen a film or two? What if that guy mentioned how it's a violent and bloody franchise and therefore requires an R rating, before buying it?
What if the execs at Disney didn't just blindly throw billions of dollars at Fox for the giggles? Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, the people at Disney know what they bought?
Whoa whoa whoa, this is the INTERNET, we don't allow reasonable opinions here!
Yeah, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking. Forget I said anything.
Agree that it's almost impossible to do noticeably worse than Ridleys prequels, most of the damage is already done but not sure if we should be happy with the Disney monopoly. Star Wars sequels have lots of similar problems with Alien prequels, I really hope we don't get more of the same, better not make any at all if that's the case. Marvel films are not bad as per se but they are nothing more than a multimillion dollar fast food entertainment, I personally don't get much entertainment from them. Pixar no longer isn't what it used to be either.
I don't really get the Disney hate either, it just seems to be a band wagon people jump on. The Marvel and Star Wars films they have produced are well made, entertaining and hugely successful.
My only concern is they tend to over saturate the market by making them too regularly. This kills the anticipation for me and leads to fatigue but I can't see them doing that with Alien movies.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 27, 2017, 12:26:52 PM
My only concern is they tend to over saturate the market by making them too regularly. This kills the anticipation for me and leads to fatigue but I can't see them doing that with Alien movies.
Yeah, that's the one thing I'm mainly concerned about as well. A good Alien/Predator film causing Disney to push these films out every year. That said, it's what I consider as one of them 'good' problems.
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 27, 2017, 12:11:51 PM
Pixar no longer isn't what it used to be either.
Their post-Disney track record includes: Wall-E, Up, Toy Story 3, Inside Out and Coco. They released some of their best films under Disney.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Dec 27, 2017, 12:44:34 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 27, 2017, 12:26:52 PM
My only concern is they tend to over saturate the market by making them too regularly. This kills the anticipation for me and leads to fatigue but I can't see them doing that with Alien movies.
Yeah, that's the one thing I'm mainly concerned about as well. A good Alien/Predator film causing Disney to push these films out every year. That said, it's what I consider as one of them 'good' problems.
Quote from: reecebomb on Dec 27, 2017, 12:11:51 PM
Pixar no longer isn't what it used to be either.
Their post-Disney track record includes: Wall-E, Up, Toy Story 3, Inside Out and Coco. They released some of their best films under Disney.
Tbf Coco indeed is a sign that things are going up again, no need to waste talent on another Cars sequel.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Dec 27, 2017, 11:03:42 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 27, 2017, 02:16:13 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 27, 2017, 12:16:33 AM
Too many kids post here I think, they want Marvel superhero movies not Alien. They want movies for kids, not adults.
How old are you?
Just as a litmus test, how old do you think SM is? Or me? :)
I'm taking a crack at this challenge. My guess is that SM is around 46 and you are 32?
I want to wait and see what Scorpio says, but I'll PM you in a bit.
Or you could just click on his name and read it...
I kinda agree with sir. Ridley Scott, Alien is a legendary sci fi franchise and it deserves a huge fandom (such as better movies). I think i'd like to see rather more Prometheus film, it was so refreshing and s good concept for the expanded universe
Quote from: Highland on Dec 26, 2017, 11:41:31 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 26, 2017, 10:24:50 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 26, 2017, 12:33:57 PM
For body-horror, maybe, depending on how it's handled, A lot of what makes horror work is what's not shown. PG-13 doesn't automatically mean jump scares, there are a bunch of quality PG-13 horror movies that are scary because of the sense of looming dread, tension, and as mentioned, what isn't shown.
Shit, aside from the rampant profanity and the colonist chestburster scene in 'Aliens', that movie is practically bloodless. A reworking of the dialogue would turn that movie into an easy PG-13 by today's standards. Even Bishop getting torn in half wouldn't trigger an R-rateing, as the MPAA only cares about actual genuine bona-fide red human blood when it comes to gore. You can show aliens or robots being blasted apart and dismembered to your heart's content, and it's not considered "gory".
All this undoubtedly carefully planned by James Cameron. Imagine if Hicks or Newt got ripped apart by the Alien queen, the movie wouldn't been anywhere close to as popular as it is now. The soccer moms in the audience would've raged and screamed, but by making the victim a robot that can take being ripped in two, he includes as much of the audience as possible while still doing a good job showcasing the queen's power.
Also, using Logan and Deadpool as indicators that R-rated movies can do well is a pretty bad representative sample given that both of those movies are capeshit diarrhea which nowadays audiences keep craving in higher and higher doses.
It wouldn't have been as popular because that's a crap idea.
Because all the heroes and kids have to survive to make it a good movie? Imagine if the Alien queen had ripped Hicks apart, and Ripley and Bishop had to team up to beat her, with Bishop also getting destroyed in the process. You'd still have the kid surviving to please soccer moms, but the Alien queen would've seemed a lot more powerful as opposed to losing a 1v1 vs a powerloader.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 27, 2017, 12:16:33 AM
Too many kids post here I think, they want Marvel superhero movies not Alien. They want movies for kids, not adults.
Nah, I think most consumers of these movies are actually fully grown adults, for some reason.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 27, 2017, 07:26:27 AM
Who the heck wants a sequel to Covenant with the way it ended. So let me guess... the colonists get infected and someone has to save the day, and it leads into LV-426 in Alien? Ridley is so obsessed with that backdoor shit. Screw that. Damon had the right idea. Run tangentially, not right behind.
The fun thing about the prequels is that there's no telling what's going to happen, whereas with e.g. a Blomkamp movie it would've been superpredictable (something happens, Alien outbreak, Ripley saves the day). Thank God that Ridley Scott in his old age is willing to break stale conventions, now we just need a slightly tighter script.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 27, 2017, 04:16:37 PM
Or you could just click on his name and read it...
Oh shit, I forgot about that. :D
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 27, 2017, 12:26:52 PM
I don't really get the Disney hate either, it just seems to be a band wagon people jump on. The Marvel and Star Wars films they have produced are well made, entertaining and hugely successful.
Marvel movies are action comedies at this point. People are hating the new SW movie because all the comedy in it.
Disney destroys the essence of their movies and put out generic stuff. They make money, no question, but whats the point of a cantina scene with no one smoking or drinking?
If you are in the crowd that are just happy for something to be made, cool, but there are people that want to keep the original essence of the films and would rather not see some mass produced thing.
No one smoking and drinking is your criticism?
http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/rumor-alien-covenant-sequel-cancelled (http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/rumor-alien-covenant-sequel-cancelled)
God, sci-fied is absolutely terrible. They're sighting a React365 article as a source. That website is for making intentionally fake articles to fool your friends. I see why that site gets a lot of flak on these boards.
Quote from: DaddyYautja on Dec 27, 2017, 09:12:43 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Dec 27, 2017, 12:26:52 PM
I don't really get the Disney hate either, it just seems to be a band wagon people jump on. The Marvel and Star Wars films they have produced are well made, entertaining and hugely successful.
Marvel movies are action comedies at this point. People are hating the new SW movie because all the comedy in it.
Disney destroys the essence of their movies and put out generic stuff. They make money, no question, but whats the point of a cantina scene with no one smoking or drinking?
If you are in the crowd that are just happy for something to be made, cool, but there are people that want to keep the original essence of the films and would rather not see some mass produced thing.
I don't believe that's what they do. I've been a Star Wars fan since I was a kid and the new movies keep the original essence for me. Far more than the prequels did. Some of the gags in TLJ fell flat for me too but it's not like the originals weren't full of humour.
The only problem with the Marvel movies is they release too many of them too quickly and I'm bored of them but if people are buying it I can't blame them.
Quote from: necrotard on Dec 27, 2017, 10:18:02 PM
http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/rumor-alien-covenant-sequel-cancelled (http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/rumor-alien-covenant-sequel-cancelled)
God, sci-fied is absolutely terrible. They're sighting a React365 article as a source. That website is for making intentionally fake articles to fool your friends. I see why that site gets a lot of flak on these boards.
I'm not one to rag on how other fans want to celebrate their love of the franchise - but sometimes I really scratch my head.. (http://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/47227).
Quote from: SM on Dec 27, 2017, 09:25:06 PM
No one smoking and drinking is your criticism?
Listen. That is so important... Y- You don't even know, bro. For real. Th-
The MOST important.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 27, 2017, 06:45:53 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 26, 2017, 11:41:31 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 26, 2017, 10:24:50 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 26, 2017, 12:33:57 PM
For body-horror, maybe, depending on how it's handled, A lot of what makes horror work is what's not shown. PG-13 doesn't automatically mean jump scares, there are a bunch of quality PG-13 horror movies that are scary because of the sense of looming dread, tension, and as mentioned, what isn't shown.
Shit, aside from the rampant profanity and the colonist chestburster scene in 'Aliens', that movie is practically bloodless. A reworking of the dialogue would turn that movie into an easy PG-13 by today's standards. Even Bishop getting torn in half wouldn't trigger an R-rateing, as the MPAA only cares about actual genuine bona-fide red human blood when it comes to gore. You can show aliens or robots being blasted apart and dismembered to your heart's content, and it's not considered "gory".
All this undoubtedly carefully planned by James Cameron. Imagine if Hicks or Newt got ripped apart by the Alien queen, the movie wouldn't been anywhere close to as popular as it is now. The soccer moms in the audience would've raged and screamed, but by making the victim a robot that can take being ripped in two, he includes as much of the audience as possible while still doing a good job showcasing the queen's power.
Also, using Logan and Deadpool as indicators that R-rated movies can do well is a pretty bad representative sample given that both of those movies are capeshit diarrhea which nowadays audiences keep craving in higher and higher doses.
It wouldn't have been as popular because that's a crap idea.
Because all the heroes and kids have to survive to make it a good movie? Imagine if the Alien queen had ripped Hicks apart, and Ripley and Bishop had to team up to beat her, with Bishop also getting destroyed in the process. You'd still have the kid surviving to please soccer moms, but the Alien queen would've seemed a lot more powerful as opposed to losing a 1v1 vs a powerloader.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 27, 2017, 12:16:33 AM
Too many kids post here I think, they want Marvel superhero movies not Alien. They want movies for kids, not adults.
Nah, I think most consumers of these movies are actually fully grown adults, for some reason.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 27, 2017, 07:26:27 AM
Who the heck wants a sequel to Covenant with the way it ended. So let me guess... the colonists get infected and someone has to save the day, and it leads into LV-426 in Alien? Ridley is so obsessed with that backdoor shit. Screw that. Damon had the right idea. Run tangentially, not right behind.
The fun thing about the prequels is that there's no telling what's going to happen, whereas with e.g. a Blomkamp movie it would've been superpredictable (something happens, Alien outbreak, Ripley saves the day). Thank God that Ridley Scott in his old age is willing to break stale conventions, now we just need a slightly tighter script.
98/94 % critic and fan base still say's your ending Aliens ending sucks. Your Alien in Covenant got beat by one mom, twice.
Quote from: DaddyYautja on Dec 27, 2017, 09:12:43 PM
People are hating the new SW movie because all the comedy in it.
If you are in the crowd that are just happy for something to be made, cool, but there are people that want to keep the original essence of the films and would rather not see some mass produced thing.
There was always comedy in the Star Wars films; Lucas simply writes bad jokes.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.starwarsreport.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F05%2FLeia_Foul_Stench.jpg&hash=abd683bb352550bceef55ef78090780162fd1dd7)
Quote from: necrotard on Dec 27, 2017, 10:18:02 PM
http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/rumor-alien-covenant-sequel-cancelled (http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/rumor-alien-covenant-sequel-cancelled)
God, sci-fied is absolutely terrible. They're sighting a React365 article as a source. That website is for making intentionally fake articles to fool your friends. I see why that site gets a lot of flak on these boards.
This article (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/2017/12/23/sir-ridley-scott-thinks-alien-level-fans-star-trek-star-wars/) refers to a Blu-Ray forum user.
Quote from: monkeylove on Dec 28, 2017, 05:59:31 AM
Quote from: necrotard on Dec 27, 2017, 10:18:02 PM
http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/rumor-alien-covenant-sequel-cancelled (http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/rumor-alien-covenant-sequel-cancelled)
God, sci-fied is absolutely terrible. They're sighting a React365 article as a source. That website is for making intentionally fake articles to fool your friends. I see why that site gets a lot of flak on these boards.
This article (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/2017/12/23/sir-ridley-scott-thinks-alien-level-fans-star-trek-star-wars/) refers to a Blu-Ray forum user.
Still more credible than a React365 article. Those articles are admittedly fake for pranking your friends.
Quote from: monkeylove on Dec 28, 2017, 05:59:31 AM
Quote from: necrotard on Dec 27, 2017, 10:18:02 PM
http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/rumor-alien-covenant-sequel-cancelled (http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/rumor-alien-covenant-sequel-cancelled)
God, sci-fied is absolutely terrible. They're sighting a React365 article as a source. That website is for making intentionally fake articles to fool your friends. I see why that site gets a lot of flak on these boards.
This article (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/2017/12/23/sir-ridley-scott-thinks-alien-level-fans-star-trek-star-wars/) refers to a Blu-Ray forum user.
That forum post wasn't a headline feature. However, after some extra digging we believe it's credible.
Quote from: necrotard on Dec 28, 2017, 06:56:58 AM
Quote from: monkeylove on Dec 28, 2017, 05:59:31 AM
Quote from: necrotard on Dec 27, 2017, 10:18:02 PM
http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/rumor-alien-covenant-sequel-cancelled (http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/rumor-alien-covenant-sequel-cancelled)
God, sci-fied is absolutely terrible. They're sighting a React365 article as a source. That website is for making intentionally fake articles to fool your friends. I see why that site gets a lot of flak on these boards.
This article (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/2017/12/23/sir-ridley-scott-thinks-alien-level-fans-star-trek-star-wars/) refers to a Blu-Ray forum user.
Still more credible than a React365 article. Those articles are admittedly fake for pranking your friends.
It also clearly says at the bottom of every React page that -
"This website is an entertainment website, news are created by users. These are humourous news, fantasy, fictional, that should not be seriously taken or as a source of information."
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Dec 28, 2017, 04:40:48 AMThere was always comedy in the Star Wars films
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.coinbox.com.au%2Fforty%2Fceepers.jpg&hash=19d0c77c6135e317c53ef6e33f71417b49cb6ecd)
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Dec 28, 2017, 09:05:02 AM
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Dec 28, 2017, 04:40:48 AMThere was always comedy in the Star Wars films
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.coinbox.com.au%2Fforty%2Fceepers.jpg&hash=19d0c77c6135e317c53ef6e33f71417b49cb6ecd)
There always was humour, different type of humour and the silly gags were mostly absent.
Threepio mugging at the camera and saying "How typical" was silly.
And also funny as.
Quote from: necrotard on Dec 28, 2017, 06:56:58 AM
Still more credible than a React365 article. Those articles are admittedly fake for pranking your friends.
The source you shared refers to both the forum member and the React article. The first claims that the sequel has been cancelled while the second adds that a reboot will take place instead.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 28, 2017, 12:05:36 AM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 27, 2017, 06:45:53 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 26, 2017, 11:41:31 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 26, 2017, 10:24:50 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 26, 2017, 12:33:57 PM
For body-horror, maybe, depending on how it's handled, A lot of what makes horror work is what's not shown. PG-13 doesn't automatically mean jump scares, there are a bunch of quality PG-13 horror movies that are scary because of the sense of looming dread, tension, and as mentioned, what isn't shown.
Shit, aside from the rampant profanity and the colonist chestburster scene in 'Aliens', that movie is practically bloodless. A reworking of the dialogue would turn that movie into an easy PG-13 by today's standards. Even Bishop getting torn in half wouldn't trigger an R-rateing, as the MPAA only cares about actual genuine bona-fide red human blood when it comes to gore. You can show aliens or robots being blasted apart and dismembered to your heart's content, and it's not considered "gory".
All this undoubtedly carefully planned by James Cameron. Imagine if Hicks or Newt got ripped apart by the Alien queen, the movie wouldn't been anywhere close to as popular as it is now. The soccer moms in the audience would've raged and screamed, but by making the victim a robot that can take being ripped in two, he includes as much of the audience as possible while still doing a good job showcasing the queen's power.
Also, using Logan and Deadpool as indicators that R-rated movies can do well is a pretty bad representative sample given that both of those movies are capeshit diarrhea which nowadays audiences keep craving in higher and higher doses.
It wouldn't have been as popular because that's a crap idea.
Because all the heroes and kids have to survive to make it a good movie? Imagine if the Alien queen had ripped Hicks apart, and Ripley and Bishop had to team up to beat her, with Bishop also getting destroyed in the process. You'd still have the kid surviving to please soccer moms, but the Alien queen would've seemed a lot more powerful as opposed to losing a 1v1 vs a powerloader.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 27, 2017, 12:16:33 AM
Too many kids post here I think, they want Marvel superhero movies not Alien. They want movies for kids, not adults.
Nah, I think most consumers of these movies are actually fully grown adults, for some reason.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 27, 2017, 07:26:27 AM
Who the heck wants a sequel to Covenant with the way it ended. So let me guess... the colonists get infected and someone has to save the day, and it leads into LV-426 in Alien? Ridley is so obsessed with that backdoor shit. Screw that. Damon had the right idea. Run tangentially, not right behind.
The fun thing about the prequels is that there's no telling what's going to happen, whereas with e.g. a Blomkamp movie it would've been superpredictable (something happens, Alien outbreak, Ripley saves the day). Thank God that Ridley Scott in his old age is willing to break stale conventions, now we just need a slightly tighter script.
98/94 % critic and fan base still say's your ending Aliens ending sucks. Your Alien in Covenant got beat by one mom, twice.
The xeno in Covenant is probably not fully evolved, it has an extreme and uncontrolled aggression, and in both cases it was defeated by Daniels, Tennessee and "Walter" working together. The Queen (which is supposed to be stronger than a Warrior) was literally defeated by only Ripley in an exosuit. It's still a decent scene, but with the changes I proposed it would've been much less Disney and would've been more pleasing overall to most mature audience members I'd wager.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 29, 2017, 06:11:54 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 28, 2017, 12:05:36 AM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 27, 2017, 06:45:53 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 26, 2017, 11:41:31 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 26, 2017, 10:24:50 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 26, 2017, 12:33:57 PM
For body-horror, maybe, depending on how it's handled, A lot of what makes horror work is what's not shown. PG-13 doesn't automatically mean jump scares, there are a bunch of quality PG-13 horror movies that are scary because of the sense of looming dread, tension, and as mentioned, what isn't shown.
Shit, aside from the rampant profanity and the colonist chestburster scene in 'Aliens', that movie is practically bloodless. A reworking of the dialogue would turn that movie into an easy PG-13 by today's standards. Even Bishop getting torn in half wouldn't trigger an R-rateing, as the MPAA only cares about actual genuine bona-fide red human blood when it comes to gore. You can show aliens or robots being blasted apart and dismembered to your heart's content, and it's not considered "gory".
All this undoubtedly carefully planned by James Cameron. Imagine if Hicks or Newt got ripped apart by the Alien queen, the movie wouldn't been anywhere close to as popular as it is now. The soccer moms in the audience would've raged and screamed, but by making the victim a robot that can take being ripped in two, he includes as much of the audience as possible while still doing a good job showcasing the queen's power.
Also, using Logan and Deadpool as indicators that R-rated movies can do well is a pretty bad representative sample given that both of those movies are capeshit diarrhea which nowadays audiences keep craving in higher and higher doses.
It wouldn't have been as popular because that's a crap idea.
Because all the heroes and kids have to survive to make it a good movie? Imagine if the Alien queen had ripped Hicks apart, and Ripley and Bishop had to team up to beat her, with Bishop also getting destroyed in the process. You'd still have the kid surviving to please soccer moms, but the Alien queen would've seemed a lot more powerful as opposed to losing a 1v1 vs a powerloader.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 27, 2017, 12:16:33 AM
Too many kids post here I think, they want Marvel superhero movies not Alien. They want movies for kids, not adults.
Nah, I think most consumers of these movies are actually fully grown adults, for some reason.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 27, 2017, 07:26:27 AM
Who the heck wants a sequel to Covenant with the way it ended. So let me guess... the colonists get infected and someone has to save the day, and it leads into LV-426 in Alien? Ridley is so obsessed with that backdoor shit. Screw that. Damon had the right idea. Run tangentially, not right behind.
The fun thing about the prequels is that there's no telling what's going to happen, whereas with e.g. a Blomkamp movie it would've been superpredictable (something happens, Alien outbreak, Ripley saves the day). Thank God that Ridley Scott in his old age is willing to break stale conventions, now we just need a slightly tighter script.
98/94 % critic and fan base still say's your ending Aliens ending sucks. Your Alien in Covenant got beat by one mom, twice.
The xeno in Covenant is probably not fully evolved, it has an extreme and uncontrolled aggression, and in both cases it was defeated by Daniels, Tennessee and "Walter" working together. The Queen (which is supposed to be stronger than a Warrior) was literally defeated by only Ripley in an exosuit. It's still a decent scene, but with the changes I proposed it would've been much less Disney and would've been more pleasing overall to most mature audience members I'd wager.
The Queen is probably a lot stronger than a Warrior she was only defeated because she was dropped out into space. Sure the powerloader smacked her around a bit and helped get her into the airlock but if there was no airlock then eventually I'm sure the Queen would figure out how to overpower the machine probably by knocking it over and Ripley would be screwed.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 29, 2017, 06:11:54 PM
The xeno in Covenant is probably not fully evolved, it has an extreme and uncontrolled aggression
There's no proof of that. Aggression seems to be a general trait of any Alien.
QuoteThe Queen (which is supposed to be stronger than a Warrior) was literally defeated by only Ripley in an exosuit. It's still a decent scene, but with the changes I proposed it would've been much less Disney and would've been more pleasing overall to most mature audience members I'd wager.
The Queens purpose is to lay eggs, being a bad ass just seems to be a bonus. Aliens is still a violent film with some scary imagery. People getting ripped in half isn't going to make a movie better, especially when said movie is as close to perfect in it's genre.
It would make it better for me. Even as a kid I wished the ripping apart had been with blood instead of robot-fluid.
How is the Alien in Covenant 'not fully evolved'?
The point of the hanger battle scene is: 'The two "mothers" fight'; Not 'Look at all this blood we throw at you!'
Bishop isn't being ripped in half because the scene needed someone to "die"; he is being ripped in half specifically so that only Ripley would be left to fight the Queen in order to protect Newt. Him being torn apart has a narrative and thematic purpose. It doesn't just happen for the sake of "gore". That subtle difference is one of the many many reasons why Aliens is far superior to the prequels.
Also Hicks is in the Med bay asleep.
So that leaves the Kid getting ripped in half ...or Ripley. So you either like kids getting ripped in half or the main hero getting ripped in half. I don't think you've thought this one through.
Remove all the men - even the artificial ones - so it has to be womano a womano.
And have the way cool bit when Bishop catches Newt.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Dec 30, 2017, 01:15:10 AM
The point of the hanger battle scene is: 'The two "mothers" fight'; Not 'Look at all this blood we throw at you!'
Bishop isn't being ripped in half because the scene needed someone to "die"; he is being ripped in half specifically so that only Ripley would be left to fight the Queen in order to protect Newt. Him being torn apart has a narrative and thematic purpose. It doesn't just happen for the sake of "gore". That subtle difference is one of the many many reasons why Aliens is far superior to the prequels.
The reason for the hangar battle scene is to have Ripley defeat the Alien queen while protecting her "daughter". That's something that many audience members can resonate it and it creates emotional attachment. Bishop is ripped apart both to showcase the Queen's terrifying power and to have Ripley be alone. What I'm saying is very simple: the movie would've been better for audiences who prefer more grit as opposed to more Disney, like me, if the scene had been bloodier.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 30, 2017, 01:18:44 AM
Also Hicks is in the Med bay asleep.
So that leaves the Kid getting ripped in half ...or Ripley. So you either like kids getting ripped in half or the main hero getting ripped in half. I don't think you've thought this one through.
Obviously the script could've just been altered to have Hicks come out with them. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Newt getting ripped apart either, mainly because the angry reactions that would've produced in soccer moms would've been pleasing to me, but of course from a film success perspective this is not the ideal option.
QuotePersonally I wouldn't mind seeing Newt getting ripped apart either
Hi David, im loving
Mindhunter! Keep it up!
The whole point of the film is that .... ... never mind.
I find it hilariously ironic that you guy's continually refer to members as "The Pulse Rifle Queen lovers" and your idea of a better movie is to have "Stuff ripped in half"
This forum brings me joy.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 30, 2017, 01:43:43 AM
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Dec 30, 2017, 01:15:10 AM
The point of the hanger battle scene is: 'The two "mothers" fight'; Not 'Look at all this blood we throw at you!'
Bishop isn't being ripped in half because the scene needed someone to "die"; he is being ripped in half specifically so that only Ripley would be left to fight the Queen in order to protect Newt. Him being torn apart has a narrative and thematic purpose. It doesn't just happen for the sake of "gore". That subtle difference is one of the many many reasons why Aliens is far superior to the prequels.
The reason for the hangar battle scene is to have Ripley defeat the Alien queen while protecting her "daughter". That's something that many audience members can resonate it and it creates emotional attachment. Bishop is ripped apart both to showcase the Queen's terrifying power and to have Ripley be alone. What I'm saying is very simple: the movie would've been better for audiences who prefer more grit as opposed to more Disney, like me, if the scene had been bloodier.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 30, 2017, 01:18:44 AM
Also Hicks is in the Med bay asleep.
So that leaves the Kid getting ripped in half ...or Ripley. So you either like kids getting ripped in half or the main hero getting ripped in half. I don't think you've thought this one through.
Obviously the script could've just been altered to have Hicks come out with them. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Newt getting ripped apart either, mainly because the angry reactions that would've produced in soccer moms would've been pleasing to me, but of course from a film success perspective this is not the ideal option.
I thought Aliens was a salvageable film when Newt was taken by the alien, but then it was ruined moments later when Ripley starts out on her rescue mission.
At least Alien3 rectified it.
Quote from: Highland on Dec 30, 2017, 03:43:56 AM
The whole point of the film is that .... ... never mind.
I find it hilariously ironic that you guy's continually refer to members as "The Pulse Rifle Queen lovers" and your idea of a better movie is to have "Stuff ripped in half"
This forum brings me joy.
I don't speak for other Covenant defenders, but yes, stuff being ripped in half always helps.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 30, 2017, 06:01:28 AM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 30, 2017, 03:43:56 AM
The whole point of the film is that .... ... never mind.
I find it hilariously ironic that you guy's continually refer to members as "The Pulse Rifle Queen lovers" and your idea of a better movie is to have "Stuff ripped in half"
This forum brings me joy.
I don't speak for other Covenant defenders, but yes, stuff being ripped in half always helps.
Well at least your honest!
Seriously though, Newt getting killed (or even not found again) blows the whole story structure apart.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 30, 2017, 06:01:28 AMI don't speak for other Covenant defenders, but yes, stuff being ripped in half always helps.
It's why I wouldn't mind an gory Aliens flick with Marines and perhaps some Blomkamp robots.
Personally I prefer Prometheus/Engineers/David type stuff but I certainly would enjoy the hell out of some bloody over-the-top action fest.
Btw, you like gory entertainment in general?
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Dec 30, 2017, 06:52:57 AM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 30, 2017, 06:01:28 AMI don't speak for other Covenant defenders, but yes, stuff being ripped in half always helps.
It's why I wouldn't mind an gory Aliens flick with Marines and perhaps some Blomkamp robots.
Personally I prefer Prometheus/Engineers/David type stuff but I certainly would enjoy the hell out of some bloody over-the-top action fest.
Btw, you like gory entertainment in general?
Well, not for its own sake, but yes, although not every death scene has to be brutal, and not every death scene has to purely visceral. Sometimes the audial aspect can be even more terrifying. For example, Hallett's screams in Covenant are in a way even more terrifying than the thing coming out of his mouth.
Personally I enjoy the imagery, the way they've captured the creature in the scene, the shadows, build up etc. Covenant has some of these, the Neo bent over eating the chick, the Xeno standing up in the hanger.... that's about it.
I didn't like seeing it in the light or farting around the Covenant. The jump down from the roof bit was too AVP and we never saw the jumping through the tunnel part which was supposed to be in the original Alien too. I'm surprised he left that out after not being able to do it the first time.
Alien was never meant to be on the same level as Star Wars/Star Trek. The Xenomorph is a one-dimensional character from the standpoint it's a killing machine. It does the same thing no matter how many films are made about the creature. Besides, what is the point of making "prequels" that lead up to the 1979 film? Prometheus was great because the filmmakers were willing to think outside the box, thus creating a new spin on the Alien universe. To see an Alien film that didn't have senseless bloodletting would have been most welcome.
Never meant to be? You're speaking as if a franchise's popularity is up to the studio or filmmakers lol.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 29, 2017, 06:11:54 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 28, 2017, 12:05:36 AM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 27, 2017, 06:45:53 PM
Quote from: Highland on Dec 26, 2017, 11:41:31 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 26, 2017, 10:24:50 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Dec 26, 2017, 12:33:57 PM
For body-horror, maybe, depending on how it's handled, A lot of what makes horror work is what's not shown. PG-13 doesn't automatically mean jump scares, there are a bunch of quality PG-13 horror movies that are scary because of the sense of looming dread, tension, and as mentioned, what isn't shown.
Shit, aside from the rampant profanity and the colonist chestburster scene in 'Aliens', that movie is practically bloodless. A reworking of the dialogue would turn that movie into an easy PG-13 by today's standards. Even Bishop getting torn in half wouldn't trigger an R-rateing, as the MPAA only cares about actual genuine bona-fide red human blood when it comes to gore. You can show aliens or robots being blasted apart and dismembered to your heart's content, and it's not considered "gory".
All this undoubtedly carefully planned by James Cameron. Imagine if Hicks or Newt got ripped apart by the Alien queen, the movie wouldn't been anywhere close to as popular as it is now. The soccer moms in the audience would've raged and screamed, but by making the victim a robot that can take being ripped in two, he includes as much of the audience as possible while still doing a good job showcasing the queen's power.
Also, using Logan and Deadpool as indicators that R-rated movies can do well is a pretty bad representative sample given that both of those movies are capeshit diarrhea which nowadays audiences keep craving in higher and higher doses.
It wouldn't have been as popular because that's a crap idea.
Because all the heroes and kids have to survive to make it a good movie? Imagine if the Alien queen had ripped Hicks apart, and Ripley and Bishop had to team up to beat her, with Bishop also getting destroyed in the process. You'd still have the kid surviving to please soccer moms, but the Alien queen would've seemed a lot more powerful as opposed to losing a 1v1 vs a powerloader.
Quote from: Scorpio on Dec 27, 2017, 12:16:33 AM
Too many kids post here I think, they want Marvel superhero movies not Alien. They want movies for kids, not adults.
Nah, I think most consumers of these movies are actually fully grown adults, for some reason.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Dec 27, 2017, 07:26:27 AM
Who the heck wants a sequel to Covenant with the way it ended. So let me guess... the colonists get infected and someone has to save the day, and it leads into LV-426 in Alien? Ridley is so obsessed with that backdoor shit. Screw that. Damon had the right idea. Run tangentially, not right behind.
The fun thing about the prequels is that there's no telling what's going to happen, whereas with e.g. a Blomkamp movie it would've been superpredictable (something happens, Alien outbreak, Ripley saves the day). Thank God that Ridley Scott in his old age is willing to break stale conventions, now we just need a slightly tighter script.
98/94 % critic and fan base still say's your ending Aliens ending sucks. Your Alien in Covenant got beat by one mom, twice.
The xeno in Covenant is probably not fully evolved, it has an extreme and uncontrolled aggression, and in both cases it was defeated by Daniels, Tennessee and "Walter" working together. The Queen (which is supposed to be stronger than a Warrior) was literally defeated by only Ripley in an exosuit. It's still a decent scene, but with the changes I proposed it would've been much less Disney and would've been more pleasing overall to most mature audience members I'd wager.
* First, I agree with you that it took 3 characters coordinating their attack to defeat the proto-xenomorph in "Covenant".
Just in terms of Alien style action that worked for me.
* With the ending of "Aliens" the story's purpose is different. It's not supposed to be a realistic comparison between the power of a xenomorph/the Queen vs. a human/Ripley (+ loader).
- After all, the Queen while being blown out of the airlock has grabbed on to Ripley and Ripley is holing onto the rung of a ladder with one arm.
It's absurd but it still works.
- The last act of "Aliens" builds Ripley up as a female super action character. Still the best woman action role imo also with good acting by Weaver.
;)
Quote from: The Highlander MacLeod on Dec 30, 2017, 05:42:50 PM
To see an Alien film that didn't have senseless bloodletting would have been most welcome.
Alien is body horror, whether it's explicitly shown or implied, that is the essence of it.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Dec 30, 2017, 09:30:40 AMWell, not for its own sake, but yes, although not every death scene has to be brutal, and not every death scene has to purely visceral. Sometimes the audial aspect can be even more terrifying. For example, Hallett's screams in Covenant are in a way even more terrifying than the thing coming out of his mouth.
Overal, I like it somewhat realistic and in proportion (horror comedies are an exception).
District 9 comes to mind. That's a proper display of violence.
Brawl In CB 99 was brutal but it was done right.
Even the last Rambo movie. There's a part where enemies are almost shot to pieces, because that's what a heavy calibre machine gun does to a human body.
And in Rambo it just looked comical.
Quote from: SM on Dec 31, 2017, 03:53:32 AM
And in Rambo it just looked comical.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
For me it was about how the blood and damage to the bodies were in proportion.
The Queen holding on to Ripley's leg was actually taken from Scotts original too. The Alien was supposed to hold on to her ankle as it got forced out into space.
There's a hell of a lot of things Cameron took from Alien that were either on screen or story boarded.
@BishopShouldGo: About the Alien franchise, my point was that Ridley Scott wanted to make a film that was not like Star Wars-he says as much in the commentary for the 1979's Alien. At the end of the day, we should be able to agree to disagree.
@Gash: That was merely my opinion, my preference.
This page is the only page comes up when I google 'AI is a stupid baby' in the google news.
Considering Scott is adamant about there being another movie, I would say he knows something we don't.
I'm thinking he's signed contracts with Fox to do more movies and such contracts might be inviolable regardless of who owns the property. Scott won't care who owns the property - just so long as his involvement is assured.
Remember, the man has been involved in the movie industry for 4 decades, making movies and signing contracts.
I am very confident he will be involved in the next movie just by listening to his assurances.
-Windebieste.
If he has a contract it could be paid off without making the movie. This has happened before. A contract is no guarantee they'll make another one.
I reckon if we don't hear anything in the next few months then it's either delayed or cancelled.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 02, 2018, 12:40:04 AM
I reckon if we don't hear anything in the next few months then it's either delayed or cancelled.
It's been delayed since Covenant didn't perform as well as everyone expected and Fox had Scott off looking for a new direction to go with. However, with the whole Disney thing on the horizon I think it's unlikely we'll see another Alien film until after that's all done.
Unless Fox has commented about actively green-lighting new films? I know they said that anything already in production was safe but I'm not sure I've seen them comment on putting anything new out?
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 02, 2018, 12:40:04 AM
If he has a contract it could be paid off without making the movie. This has happened before. A contract is no guarantee they'll make another one.
I reckon if we don't hear anything in the next few months then it's either delayed or cancelled.
Didn't hear much about the sequel to Prometheus for what? Two years? Disney's purchase will create new obstacles.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 02, 2018, 12:42:50 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 02, 2018, 12:40:04 AM
I reckon if we don't hear anything in the next few months then it's either delayed or cancelled.
It's been delayed since Covenant didn't perform as well as everyone expected and Fox had Scott off looking for a new direction to go with. However, with the whole Disney thing on the horizon I think it's unlikely we'll see another Alien film until after that's all done.
Unless Fox has commented about actively green-lighting new films? I know they said that anything already in production was safe but I'm not sure I've seen them comment on putting anything new out?
I'd rather Blomkamp's movie get made than to see a different director other than Scott finish the David storyline.
Ridley Scott is totally out of touch when it comes to ALIEN.
The prequels were absolute garbage. I just saw "All The money in the World" and it was pretty good,
proving he still knows how to make a decent movie, it's just that it doesn't seem he cares about the
ALIEN universe. Covenant was so awful, the decision to go with cartoon CGI Marvel type monsters instead
of really taking the time and building intricate, realistic monsters... The stupid ending. The lack of
understanding of how real A.I. works... (I'm so sick of this cartoon version of A.I. in film) It's just sad that he's
so arrogant, as if he can't tell how far away from what works he has fallen.
He doesn't care about exactly what made ALIEN great. He doesn't care about the ALIEN!
That's why the creatures in COVENANT were so sloppily thrown together without care, they didn't even
follow the traditional ALIEN life cycle and yea, I know, they're supposed to be earlier versions but how
do you give the earlier versions more power than the later ones? Makes no sense. And I don't believe he
can't tell how awful CGI looks when it attempts to make monsters, he's Ridley Scott. He has a good eye.
He just didn't care. He thought we'd be fooled because all the comic movies do it but he didn't understand
that we expect better from him and from the ALIEN universe. There's nothing worse than a director just
phoning it in and that's how I felt with COVENANT. With PROMETHEUS, I felt he was at least passionate
but it was just again a huge misunderstanding of what made ALIEN great and again, an attempt to distance
it's self from the exact thing we want - the ALIEN. Plus it was almost malicious, like an attempt to destroy
everything cool. Mystery of Space Jockey? Gone. It's just a big bald dude. Who made the alien?
A human created robot. Such terrible and stupid answers.
I hope Scott picks a dude as the protagonist now. Back in '79 it was daring to put a female in charge, but I'm pretty sick of it now. Shaw and Daniels were seriously annoying. Shaw preaching the whole time (I choose to believe!) and Daniels was sobbing most of the movie.
:laugh:
Two scenes = "most of the movie".
Quote from: Alionic on Jan 02, 2018, 06:54:31 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 02, 2018, 12:42:50 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 02, 2018, 12:40:04 AM
I reckon if we don't hear anything in the next few months then it's either delayed or cancelled.
It's been delayed since Covenant didn't perform as well as everyone expected and Fox had Scott off looking for a new direction to go with. However, with the whole Disney thing on the horizon I think it's unlikely we'll see another Alien film until after that's all done.
Unless Fox has commented about actively green-lighting new films? I know they said that anything already in production was safe but I'm not sure I've seen them comment on putting anything new out?
I'd rather Blomkamp's movie get made than to see a different director other than Scott finish the David storyline.
I doubt that's an option. It's either Scott part three or total reboot. Either seems likely, but not in the next 2 years.
Quote from: P-Rock on Jan 02, 2018, 10:03:35 PM
I hope Scott picks a dude as the protagonist now. Back in '79 it was daring to put a female in charge, but I'm pretty sick of it now. Shaw and Daniels were seriously annoying. Shaw preaching the whole time (I choose to believe!) and Daniels was sobbing most of the movie.
I'm tired of the females like Kevin Spacey.
#MeToo
Quote from: MnTd on Jan 02, 2018, 07:29:11 PM
they didn't even follow the traditional ALIEN life cycle.
Which one? The Scott one from ALIEN, The Cameron one from Aliens, or the meld of both implied by Prometheus?
I would like Ridley to finish up with his trilogy.
After watching C O V E N A N T again tonight with the commentary, he said John Logan has wrote the next movie.
Quote from: David 8 on Jan 03, 2018, 01:06:34 AM
I would like Ridley to finish up with his trilogy.
After watching C O V E N A N T again tonight with the commentary, he said John Logan has wrote the next movie.
He says all manner of things and then the next thing you know he says all manner of things that contradict everything he said before, Sir Riddles is either a massive troll or genuinely doesn't remember the answer to the question so just makes things up on the spot and I say this as a fan of his.
Quote from: N-Shifter on Jan 03, 2018, 01:14:40 AM
Quote from: David 8 on Jan 03, 2018, 01:06:34 AM
I would like Ridley to finish up with his trilogy.
After watching C O V E N A N T again tonight with the commentary, he said John Logan has wrote the next movie.
He says all manner of things and then the next thing you know he says all manner of things that contradict everything he said before, Sir Riddles is either a massive troll or genuinely doesn't remember the answer to the question so just makes things up on the spot and I say this as a fan of his.
I enjoyed his commentary, regardless.
He's not one for sticking around though. As soon as the credits appeared he was off. :laugh:
Quote from: Highland on Jan 02, 2018, 11:53:20 PMI doubt that's an option. It's either Scott part three or total reboot. Either seems likely, but not in the next 2 years.
Don't see why they can't do both (I'm not saying they will).
It's Disney, they got the cash. Something similar to their Star Wars approach perhaps.
Both follow-ups to the originals, let's say Blomkamp's version, and spin-off/prequel stuff like Prometheus and Covenant.
"You know I'm a dreameeeer..."
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 03, 2018, 01:33:27 AM
Don't see why they can't do both
Of course they could.
But Ridley's need to come
first. For obvious reasons.
Blomkamp fans can wait a few more years.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 03, 2018, 02:30:14 AMOf course they could.
But Ridley's need to come first. For obvious reasons.
Blomkamp fans can wait a few more years.
Of course.
I don't like unfinished stories, open endings and such.
And I'm more interested in Prometheus type stuff than Aliens anyway.
They could announce something like "This will be the last of the prequels but the first in a new series of Alien (themed) movies."
Oh, that would be so awesome.
D
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 03, 2018, 01:33:27 AM
Quote from: Highland on Jan 02, 2018, 11:53:20 PMI doubt that's an option. It's either Scott part three or total reboot. Either seems likely, but not in the next 2 years.
Don't see why they can't do both (I'm not saying they will).
It's Disney, they got the cash. Something similar to their Star Wars approach perhaps.
Both follow-ups to the originals, let's say Blomkamp's version, and spin-off/prequel stuff like Prometheus and Covenant.
"You know I'm a dreameeeer..."
I think it's a good thing Disney took over. Can't do any worse than Fox has done with them. I really doubt Covenant 2 is getting made though. I'm going to put my dollars down on a reboot. Ridley just gave the big two fingers up to Disney the other day anyway. Maybe he knows his movies going to get finished by some young dude.
I actually agree with what he said though. You should have to work your way up to these big budget movies.
Hopefully Michael Fassbender refuses to do the sequel unless Scott is directing it.
Quote from: Highland on Jan 03, 2018, 04:19:13 AM
DQuote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 03, 2018, 01:33:27 AM
Quote from: Highland on Jan 02, 2018, 11:53:20 PMI doubt that's an option. It's either Scott part three or total reboot. Either seems likely, but not in the next 2 years.
Don't see why they can't do both (I'm not saying they will).
It's Disney, they got the cash. Something similar to their Star Wars approach perhaps.
Both follow-ups to the originals, let's say Blomkamp's version, and spin-off/prequel stuff like Prometheus and Covenant.
"You know I'm a dreameeeer..."
I think it's a good thing Disney took over. Can't do any worse than Fox has done with them. I really doubt Covenant 2 is getting made though. I'm going to put my dollars down on a reboot. Ridley just gave the big two fingers up to Disney the other day anyway. Maybe he knows his movies going to get finished by some young dude.
I actually agree with what he said though. You should have to work your way up to these big budget movies.
I think there's also a bit of control involved in getting less experienced directors involved (as far as I remember Lucas got Marquand in to direct Jedi as he felt he'd ceded too much control to Kersh on Empire). Often they'll be guys who are leaping at the chance to do a big franchise film, and less likely to make waves. There was talk (amongst fans) about Fox creating a story group a la Marvel or Lucasfilm, so there's an overall story arc spread out over a number of films - but Ridley would never be able to operate under such a strict regime.
Quote from: SM on Jan 03, 2018, 04:26:45 AM
Quote from: Highland on Jan 03, 2018, 04:19:13 AM
DQuote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 03, 2018, 01:33:27 AM
Quote from: Highland on Jan 02, 2018, 11:53:20 PMI doubt that's an option. It's either Scott part three or total reboot. Either seems likely, but not in the next 2 years.
Don't see why they can't do both (I'm not saying they will).
It's Disney, they got the cash. Something similar to their Star Wars approach perhaps.
Both follow-ups to the originals, let's say Blomkamp's version, and spin-off/prequel stuff like Prometheus and Covenant.
"You know I'm a dreameeeer..."
I think it's a good thing Disney took over. Can't do any worse than Fox has done with them. I really doubt Covenant 2 is getting made though. I'm going to put my dollars down on a reboot. Ridley just gave the big two fingers up to Disney the other day anyway. Maybe he knows his movies going to get finished by some young dude.
I actually agree with what he said though. You should have to work your way up to these big budget movies.
I think there's also a bit of control involved in getting less experienced directors involved (as far as I remember Lucas got Marquand in to direct Jedi as he felt he'd ceded too much control to Kersh on Empire). Often they'll be guys who are leaping at the chance to do a big franchise film, and less likely to make waves. There was talk (amongst fans) about Fox creating a story group a la Marvel or Lucasfilm, so there's an overall story arc spread out over a number of films - but Ridley would never be able to operate under such a strict regime.
Yeah, the control thing is not where an older experienced director wants or needs to be.
Still no news of any upcoming Fassbender movies.
Guess he's waiting for an update as well. I think otherwise he would've booked another role already.
Quote from: Highland on Jan 03, 2018, 04:19:13 AMI think it's a good thing Disney took over. Can't do any worse than Fox has done with them. I really doubt Covenant 2 is getting made though. I'm going to put my dollars down on a reboot. Ridley just gave the big two fingers up to Disney the other day anyway. Maybe he knows his movies going to get finished by some young dude.
I actually agree with what he said though. You should have to work your way up to these big budget movies.
I've been thinking the same. If they should make a bunch of movies, there's bound to be a decent one among them. And something's better than nothing.
As long as nothing's confirmed, I'm trying to stay positive. Maybe they allow Ridley to finish his story and after that they take the franchise away from him. Could explain his attitude.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 03, 2018, 05:15:04 AM
Still no news of any upcoming Fassbender movies.
Guess he's waiting for an update as well. I think otherwise he would've booked another role already.
Quote from: Highland on Jan 03, 2018, 04:19:13 AMI think it's a good thing Disney took over. Can't do any worse than Fox has done with them. I really doubt Covenant 2 is getting made though. I'm going to put my dollars down on a reboot. Ridley just gave the big two fingers up to Disney the other day anyway. Maybe he knows his movies going to get finished by some young dude.
I actually agree with what he said though. You should have to work your way up to these big budget movies.
I've been thinking the same. If they should make a bunch of movies, there's bound to be a decent one among them. And something's better than nothing.
As long as nothing's confirmed, I'm trying to stay positive. Maybe they allow Ridley to finish his story and after that they take the franchise away from him. Could explain his attitude.
We've been here so many times it's not funny. Doom and gloom, our last movie sucked, what if there's no more movies...
By the time Predator hits, I'm sure there will be rumblings of another Alien movie somewhere.
I got the impression the comments might be a veiled way of showing that he's aware that the young & faltering Blomkamp is trying to circumnavigate him again.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jan 03, 2018, 05:15:04 AM
Still no news of any upcoming Fassbender movies.
Guess he's waiting for an update as well. I think otherwise he would've booked another role already.
He's racing cars now, apparently.
Quote from: Gash on Jan 03, 2018, 05:25:05 AM
I got the impression the comments might be a veiled way of showing that he's aware that the young & faltering Blomkamp is trying to circumnavigate him again.
Alien isn't really Star Wars though, I think a young up and coming director is probably a good choice for the franchise.
The results have been mixed in the past. Anderson was probably the most experienced director when he made his instalment and it didn't exactly set the world on fire. Then the Strauses hadn't directed anything and were even worse.
Quote from: Gash on Jan 03, 2018, 05:25:05 AM
I got the impression the comments might be a veiled way of showing that he's aware that the young & faltering Blomkamp is trying to circumnavigate him again.
You guys read too much into things. Ridley doesn't have time nor the interest to keep tabs on Neill.
Quote from: Highland on Jan 03, 2018, 06:10:46 AM
Quote from: Gash on Jan 03, 2018, 05:25:05 AM
I got the impression the comments might be a veiled way of showing that he's aware that the young & faltering Blomkamp is trying to circumnavigate him again.
Alien isn't really Star Wars though, I think a young up and coming director is probably a good choice for the franchise.
Why shouldn't an established film series like Alien employ experienced, or at least competent directors?
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jan 03, 2018, 06:28:37 AM
Quote from: Gash on Jan 03, 2018, 05:25:05 AM
I got the impression the comments might be a veiled way of showing that he's aware that the young & faltering Blomkamp is trying to circumnavigate him again.
You guys read too much into things. Ridley doesn't have time nor the interest to keep tabs on Neill.
He may be commenting based on the initial interest in Blomkamp, and his general view on young directors wanting to find the shortest route to the top rather than build experience - and the advantage such naivety gives to the studio bosses, rather than any new concept art posts.
He had a hard enough time on ALIEN and Blade and after years of experience in art direction, adverts, live TV directing and a movie he still had to fight to get his vision seen. He values being able to know through experience the best way to avoid wasting money.
Quote from: Alionic on Jan 03, 2018, 06:39:55 AM
Quote from: Highland on Jan 03, 2018, 06:10:46 AM
Quote from: Gash on Jan 03, 2018, 05:25:05 AM
I got the impression the comments might be a veiled way of showing that he's aware that the young & faltering Blomkamp is trying to circumnavigate him again.
Alien isn't really Star Wars though, I think a young up and coming director is probably a good choice for the franchise.
Why shouldn't an established film series like Alien employ experienced, or at least competent directors?
I don't think there's been much wrong with the Direction of most Alien films ( not talking about the AVP ones). It's the story's and the studio interference that are bollocks.
QuoteThe results have been mixed in the past. Anderson was probably the most experienced director when he made his instalment and it didn't exactly set the world on fire. Then the Strauses hadn't directed anything and were even worse
The Strauses agenda seemed to be more about maxamizing cash rather than making an entertaining film.
Quote from: P-Rock on Jan 02, 2018, 10:03:35 PM
I hope Scott picks a dude as the protagonist now. Back in '79 it was daring to put a female in charge, but I'm pretty sick of it now. Shaw and Daniels were seriously annoying. Shaw preaching the whole time (I choose to believe!) and Daniels was sobbing most of the movie.
I think I would rather see is a larger portion of the cast being female and the "final girl" not so obviously telegraphed in the marketing.
Quote from: Highland on Jan 03, 2018, 08:34:59 AM
QuoteThe results have been mixed in the past. Anderson was probably the most experienced director when he made his instalment and it didn't exactly set the world on fire. Then the Strauses hadn't directed anything and were even worse
The Strauses agenda seemed to be more about maxamizing cash rather than making an entertaining film.
Honestly, I think they just wanted to make an A/P movie and had to deal with the crappy story they had to use. That's the impression I got from chatting to Crom in the last podcast.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 03, 2018, 10:22:12 AM
Honestly, I think they just wanted to make an A/P movie and had to deal with the crappy story they had to use. That's the impression I got from chatting to Crom in the last podcast.
They did not help themselves with the nostalgia carpet-bombing they did throughout the movie. Having Brian Tyler basically lift the entire soundtrack of Aliens and Predator.
I mean yeah, the movie would have probably been better from a premise standpoint if they went with "Predator ship crashes in Afghanistan and special forces guys have to fight the aliens and predators." Because it would have at least lent a closer to feel to the spirit of the second AVP comic (Duel? War? I can't remember. The one with the marines on Ryushi.)
A good director can take a treacherous premise and make a good movie out of it. AVP:R had potential to be good. The problem is the Strause bros just wouldn't restrain themselves.
The problem with Prometheus and Covenant is fairly simple. You give Scott a coherent script, and he'll likely give you a coherent movie. Spaihts gave him a fairly coherent, albeit scattershot, script. Lidelof, not so much. To a degree you can blame this on the excised bits in editing, but not in totality.
There's no excuse for teenagers romping about a Alien and Predator film in a department store.
Anybody here could have wrote that script, I bet some people here could have come up with an acceptable story that didn't delve into teen slasher flick. It's a shame because they actually handled the Predator/Wolf really well and the Predalien had some slight potential.
I liked their interaction with the fans on this board too, they seemed cool. They just didn't make a very good film.
Quote from: Gash on Jan 03, 2018, 06:42:05 AM
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Jan 03, 2018, 06:28:37 AM
Quote from: Gash on Jan 03, 2018, 05:25:05 AM
I got the impression the comments might be a veiled way of showing that he's aware that the young & faltering Blomkamp is trying to circumnavigate him again.
You guys read too much into things. Ridley doesn't have time nor the interest to keep tabs on Neill.
He may be commenting based on the initial interest in Blomkamp, and his general view on young directors wanting to find the shortest route to the top rather than build experience - and the advantage such naivety gives to the studio bosses, rather than any new concept art posts.
He had a hard enough time on ALIEN and Blade and after years of experience in art direction, adverts, live TV directing and a movie he still had to fight to get his vision seen. He values being able to know through experience the best way to avoid wasting money.
I say Ridley is saying this because he knows now that Disney has it, they are going to apply their STAR WARS formula and wont give him the same amount of control. And he is probably right. They wont let him have free-reign. The irony is that this is probably a good thing if Scott is willing to play ball with Disney, they will demand a certain level of entertainment value.
They will essentially approach the franchise as a Miniseries and use someone as a Creative Producer, and then either that will be Scott with him directing (like JJ and Star Wars), or they will offer Scott the chance to merge his ideas with the Creative Producer/s (think Kathleen Kennedy or The Duffer Bros) and then they will ask Scott to direct and he will turn it down. The only other possibility is that Disney will use Scott and someone like Duffer Bros to Creative Produce together and someone else on Gareth Edwards or Rian Johnson's level will direct through that type of set-up.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jan 03, 2018, 10:55:48 AM
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 03, 2018, 10:22:12 AM
Honestly, I think they just wanted to make an A/P movie and had to deal with the crappy story they had to use. That's the impression I got from chatting to Crom in the last podcast.
They did not help themselves with the nostalgia carpet-bombing they did throughout the movie. Having Brian Tyler basically lift the entire soundtrack of Aliens and Predator.
I mean yeah, the movie would have probably been better from a premise standpoint if they went with "Predator ship crashes in Afghanistan and special forces guys have to fight the aliens and predators." Because it would have at least lent a closer to feel to the spirit of the second AVP comic (Duel? War? I can't remember. The one with the marines on Ryushi.)
A good director can take a treacherous premise and make a good movie out of it. AVP:R had potential to be good. The problem is the Strause bros just wouldn't restrain themselves.
The problem with Prometheus and Covenant is fairly simple. You give Scott a coherent script, and he'll likely give you a coherent movie. Spaihts gave him a fairly coherent, albeit scattershot, script. Lidelof, not so much. To a degree you can blame this on the excised bits in editing, but not in totality.
Exactly, I believe that's the main problem now. He'll make a great movie if he gets a great script. I just worry how much does he influence the writing because that's not his strong side.
The thing that surprised me was that nothing too important was left out from the edit in Covenant (though it'd be nice to see Walter mention how it's dangerous that David hasn't been maintained for 10 years), unlike in Prometheus where the deleted scenes helped the movie IMO. So at least that's getting better now.
This time, a few ideas from the script just weren't filmed or used in Covenant that I believe would have been nice, like the idea of the storm being some type of planetary security, or the lesser needed ideas like Neo's stalking the crew through the forest, or even the short Xeno vs Neo fight, though that could've been cheesy... the best part of that idea would've just been to show the superiority of the Alien for people who asked the logical question: Spores? Then how is the Alien better with it's slower, less stealthy life-cycle? Then the answer would be: Alien is stronger than the Neo. :laugh:
Unfortunately , from Ridley "AI" Scott we have to expect the opposite ::)
The neomorph would own the xenomorph in order to ruin this creature once and for all.
God, I hope Disney give this lying man the boot.
It's gonna be about the beast my ass ::)
Quote from: maron on Jan 05, 2018, 01:32:48 AM
Unfortunately , from Ridley "AI" Scott we have to expect the opposite ::)
The neomorph would own the xenomorph in order to ruin this creature once and for all.
God, I hope Disney give this lying man the boot.
It's gonna be about the beast my ass ::)
Where did we see this? Oh we didn't. We've seen the beginnings of the perfect organism, an advancement. David working to recreate the perfect life form.
Quote from: maron on Jan 05, 2018, 01:32:48 AM
Unfortunately , from Ridley "AI" Scott we have to expect the opposite ::)
The neomorph would own the xenomorph in order to ruin this creature once and for all.
God, I hope Disney give this lying man the boot.
It's gonna be about the beast my ass ::)
Keep spewing that hate.
Disney just handed him the keys to Merlin.
Sir Ridley ain't going nowhere.
Quote from: David 8 on Jan 05, 2018, 03:45:11 AM
Quote from: maron on Jan 05, 2018, 01:32:48 AM
Unfortunately , from Ridley "AI" Scott we have to expect the opposite ::)
The neomorph would own the xenomorph in order to ruin this creature once and for all.
God, I hope Disney give this lying man the boot.
It's gonna be about the beast my ass ::)
Keep spewing that hate.
Disney just handed him the keys to Merlin.
Sir Ridley ain't going nowhere.
I wrote somewhere else this might be Disney negotiating with Scott. They've given him this Film first, just to see how he works them and if successful, they'll let him shoot Awakening.
I guess Cartel is off the cards and this will take over its place. Bummer.
Quote from: David 8 on Jan 05, 2018, 03:45:11 AM
Quote from: maron on Jan 05, 2018, 01:32:48 AM
Unfortunately , from Ridley "AI" Scott we have to expect the opposite ::)
The neomorph would own the xenomorph in order to ruin this creature once and for all.
God, I hope Disney give this lying man the boot.
It's gonna be about the beast my ass ::)
Keep spewing that hate.
Disney just handed him the keys to Merlin.
Sir Ridley ain't going nowhere.
Hope it's a darker one.
Quote from: David 8 on Jan 05, 2018, 03:45:11 AM
Quote from: maron on Jan 05, 2018, 01:32:48 AM
Unfortunately , from Ridley "AI" Scott we have to expect the opposite ::)
The neomorph would own the xenomorph in order to ruin this creature once and for all.
God, I hope Disney give this lying man the boot.
It's gonna be about the beast my ass ::)
Keep spewing that hate.
Disney just handed him the keys to Merlin.
Sir Ridley ain't going nowhere.
Oh wow. Nice.
Quote from: 0321recon on Jan 05, 2018, 06:48:10 AM
Quote from: David 8 on Jan 05, 2018, 03:45:11 AM
Quote from: maron on Jan 05, 2018, 01:32:48 AM
Unfortunately , from Ridley "AI" Scott we have to expect the opposite ::)
The neomorph would own the xenomorph in order to ruin this creature once and for all.
God, I hope Disney give this lying man the boot.
It's gonna be about the beast my ass ::)
Keep spewing that hate.
Disney just handed him the keys to Merlin.
Sir Ridley ain't going nowhere.
I wrote somewhere else this might be Disney negotiating with Scott. They've given him this Film first, just to see how he works them and if successful, they'll let him shoot Awakening.
I guess Cartel is off the cards and this will take over its place. Bummer.
Sicario 2 already is coming out next year. Scott would be wise to just do the Merlin project instead.
Great ::)
Have fun with another lame movie about androids which is labeled with the name Alien. Another mediocre film which will disappoint at the box office.
At least with Disney we might not have to wait another 4-8 years for a real Alien film.
I for one will boycot another Ridley movie and I know others will do the same. Even if this will be the last one.
Quote from: maron on Jan 05, 2018, 08:56:10 AM
Great ::)
Have fun with another lame movie about androids which is labeled with the name Alien. Another mediocre film which will disappoint at the box office.
At least with Disney we might not have to wait another 4-8 years for a real Alien film.
I for one will boycot another Ridley movie and I know others will do the same. Even if this will be the last one.
Watch out, the next Alien film will be cancelled if studio executives read this post.
So be it. Sometimes it's better to make a painful break than draw out the agony.
Cheerio.
Want some fries with all that salt?
Quote from: David 8 on Jan 05, 2018, 12:32:48 PM
Want some fries with all that salt?
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: David 8 on Jan 05, 2018, 12:32:48 PM
Want some fries with all that salt?
I'll take some fries, David. Just hold the black goo.
I have a better idea: let Ridley Scott direct the remake of The Black Hole.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jan 05, 2018, 01:26:14 PM
Quote from: David 8 on Jan 05, 2018, 12:32:48 PM
Want some fries with all that salt?
I'll take some fries, David. Just hold the black goo.
That's a shame.
Really makes every dish burst with flavor.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 05, 2018, 01:39:10 PM
I have a better idea: let Ridley Scott direct the remake of The Black Hole.
I'd love to see that. I have a soft spot for The Black Hole, particularly the score which is ace.
Quote from: maron on Jan 05, 2018, 08:56:10 AM
I for one will boycot another Ridley movie and I know others will do the same.
A recent Harvard study revealed that only 12.8% of those who declare boycott on anything, actually carry out their boycott.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 05, 2018, 01:39:10 PM
I have a better idea: let Ridley Scott direct the remake of The Black Hole.
Quite.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jan 05, 2018, 01:39:10 PM
I have a better idea: let Ridley Scott direct the remake of The Black Hole.
Ah, totally! Spot on!
QuoteThe deal, announced last month, saw Disney buy 21st Century Fox's entertainment assets for $52.4 billion (£39bn).That means that the rather kid-unfriendly Alien movies are now the House of Mouse's property – though director Ridley Scott is keen for Disney to keep the franchise going.
"It looks to me that the Fox deal is certainly going to go ahead with Disney, and I've been with Fox for a number years now," the All the Money In the World director told Digital Spy.
"I'm hoping I'll still probably be there so whether or not they go ahead with such a dark subject, being Disney, as aliens remains to be seen.
He added: "I think they should because I think, when people have a hard and fast franchise which has ongoing interest, it's crazy not to do something with it."
Scott said he backed the deal, however, showing admiration for Disney and its business sense.
"I think it's great," he continued. "I think it's very good for Disney. Of all the studios they're far ahead of their game for having a prepared, thought through demographic for the kind of films they're making – for who they're making them for.
"That's why they're so successful. And they draw the line at anything that crosses PG-13.
"[If] they find that they're so successful with that that they want to cross the line and do something a little darker, and if they do that, do they want to do that under Disney or do they want to do that under the Fox banner? I think there's a business plan afoot definitely."
As for what direction the next Alien movie could go in, the director continued: "I'm in tune with where Covenant 2 would go. We already know what we'd do with that.
"You've got to have a fundamental platform and target where you would take it. It's a bit like having the skeleton before the meat goes on."
http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/alien/news/a846768/ridley-scott-wants-more-alien-movies-with-disney/
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 05, 2018, 11:32:37 PM
QuoteThe deal, announced last month, saw Disney buy 21st Century Fox's entertainment assets for $52.4 billion (£39bn).That means that the rather kid-unfriendly Alien movies are now the House of Mouse's property – though director Ridley Scott is keen for Disney to keep the franchise going.
"It looks to me that the Fox deal is certainly going to go ahead with Disney, and I've been with Fox for a number years now," the All the Money In the World director told Digital Spy.
"I'm hoping I'll still probably be there so whether or not they go ahead with such a dark subject, being Disney, as aliens remains to be seen.
He added: "I think they should because I think, when people have a hard and fast franchise which has ongoing interest, it's crazy not to do something with it."
Scott said he backed the deal, however, showing admiration for Disney and its business sense.
"I think it's great," he continued. "I think it's very good for Disney. Of all the studios they're far ahead of their game for having a prepared, thought through demographic for the kind of films they're making – for who they're making them for.
"That's why they're so successful. And they draw the line at anything that crosses PG-13.
"[If] they find that they're so successful with that that they want to cross the line and do something a little darker, and if they do that, do they want to do that under Disney or do they want to do that under the Fox banner? I think there's a business plan afoot definitely."
As for what direction the next Alien movie could go in, the director continued: "I'm in tune with where Covenant 2 would go. We already know what we'd do with that.
"You've got to have a fundamental platform and target where you would take it. It's a bit like having the skeleton before the meat goes on."
http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/alien/news/a846768/ridley-scott-wants-more-alien-movies-with-disney/
(https://68.media.tumblr.com/73bc9c3394ec857955d92e6c58edfd9a/tumblr_onyjyfHmyd1w9pevko1_500.gif)
With those statements, Scott knows he has to work them by successfully doing the Merlin film, so he can do Awakening.
Oh god am I also hoping Ridley!
I want what Ridley filmed Alien:Awakening and then - go away from franchise. Just leave Alien for Blomkamp and other alien lovers.
Sounds like if we want Disney to let Ridley do one more Alien film, we need to give money to the upcoming Ridley/Disney Merlin movie(s).
Quote from: necrotard on Jan 07, 2018, 12:17:43 PM
Sounds like if we want Disney to let Ridley do one more Alien film, we need to give money to the upcoming Ridley/Disney Merlin movie(s).
I would see that anyway.
Quote from: Alienon on Jan 07, 2018, 10:47:51 AM
I want what Ridley filmed Alien:Awakening and then - go away from franchise. Just leave Alien for Blomkamp and other alien lovers.
I dunno... Every time we get these 'fan' directors and developers making big promises we end up with things like 'AvP', 'AvP-R' and 'A:CM'.
I'd rather see movies made by reputable movie makers rather than see it handed over to fanbois with so called 'vision' that embraces nothing but re-hashing the same old content, ad nauseum.
What Scott is doing isn't perfect, but it's fresh, challenging and subversive.
-Windebieste.
Quote from: windebieste on Jan 07, 2018, 12:35:41 PM
I dunno... Every time we get these 'fan' directors and developers making big promises we end up with things like 'AvP', 'AvP-R' and 'A:CM'.
You also get Alien:Isolation - the best entry to the franchise in over 30 years. The AvP films get a pass in this regard because they can't ever be anything but fan films. It's a series with the sole purpose of pitting two monsters one against the other and watching them fight. That's all they were ever made for.
Quote
I'd rather see movies made by reputable movie makers rather than see it handed over to fanbois with so called 'vision' that embraces nothing but re-hashing the same old content, ad nauseum.
What Scott is doing isn't perfect, but it's fresh, challenging and subversive.
Neither Scott, Cameron nor Fincher were reputable movie makers when making their Alien films. Cameron and Fincher were "fanbois with so called 'vision", and Scott went in it for the money. Each of them understood what the alien is, and never tried to treat it like a flaw by undermining it. They simply tried to tell their own respective stories, that took place during an encounter with the alien. Similarly to how good film makers understand that a good zombie film isn't about changing the zombies, but rather about the story that is being told during a zombie epidemic.
I'm not sure why you'd refer to what Scott's doing now as "fresh, challenging and subversive" Covenant was such a painfully obvious rehash of Alien, they even rehashed the opening title and score, just for those who still couldn't take the hint. There's nothing challenging about it either. The film consists out of tons of dialogues about creation, but the creator/creation dynamic is never explored in the events that occur in film. If by 'challenging' you were referring to the effort of sitting through pretentious drivel that leads to nothing but literature trivia, then sure, what Scott is doing can be considered as challenging. The one single thing Covenant has to contribute - the sole purpose for its existence - can be summed up in four words: 'David made the Alien'. And that contribution undermines the entire franchise.
- windebieste
AvP/R didn't create by fans.
A:CM created by thieves and liars.
Alien: Isolation - best example of fan power. Game studio who all his live create a global strategies - suddenly create a best of the best fps-horror.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 07, 2018, 01:37:51 PM
The one single thing Covenant has to contribute - the sole purpose for its existence - can be summed up in four words: 'David made the Alien'. And that contribution undermines the entire franchise.
No, David making the alien does not undermine the series. It confounds the assumptions of some members of the audience. Some of us thought for a long time the Alien was an ancient, unknowable creature, a reaper for the Old Ones. And the Old Ones sent forth ships piloted by these vaguely elephant-like Space Jockeys. And one of their ships crashed on LV426 and sat there for a long time. And we like the idea. It's dark and mysterious, full of mystery and foreboding. It adds to the feel of Alien. Dark Horse ran with it, wrote a lot of stories. Some of them were great, some not so great. Aliens:Apocalypse is probably the best treatise in favor of this view of the Alien as a dark, eternal force from somewhere long ago and far away.
But we know there are problems with this. How long could the beacon run? How long could the dead ship sustain the energy field covering the eggs? What does that field do? How long can a facehugger live inside an egg? How did WY miss the beacon until the Nostromo mission? If WY knew the ship was there, why send a commercial towing vehicle with an expensive payload instead of a scout ship with a professional crew? Questions, questions. We can debate endlessly why, but the the derelict may not have been on LV426 for as long as we thought. And the Company had a pretty good idea what the Nostromo crew would find on that rock. How did the Company know?
If David made the Alien, the company probably knew because David told them. And David made the creature using black goo, fire of the gods, if you will. He did not make the creature whole-cloth from nothing. He had a lot of help from the Engineer ship. He had to conduct a lot of experiments to get the desired result, but the underlying tech is still of alien origin.
This does not undermine the franchise. And the problem is not the underlying idea, either. It's the execution of the idea in the movies. These prequel movies look good; but the storytelling, pacing, and character interaction are all lacking. As I have said many times, these films could have been great; but they're not. It will be best if the dead franchise lies sleeping until someone finally figures out how to handle it.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 07, 2018, 01:37:51 PM
I'm not sure why you'd refer to what Scott's doing now as "fresh, challenging and subversive" Covenant was such a painfully obvious rehash of Alien, they even rehashed the opening title and score, just for those who still couldn't take the hint. There's nothing challenging about it either. The film consists out of tons of dialogues about creation, but the creator/creation dynamic is never explored in the events that occur in film. If by 'challenging' you were referring to the effort of sitting through pretentious drivel that leads to nothing but literature trivia, then sure, what Scott is doing can be considered as challenging. The one single thing Covenant has to contribute - the sole purpose for its existence - can be summed up in four words: 'David made the Alien'. And that contribution undermines the entire franchise.
Yep.
I dont understand why it should be so definitive. David did not created the Aliens, he just repeated similar "conditions" (using the black goo) that lead to a creation of similar, yet still different Alien(s). Engineers created it a long ago first, they are their only original makers, + somehow they created or find the whole patogen that is responsible for everything in the first place, so. . David could repeat and copy the process yes, but just only because he is artifical, in Covenant we basically see the same effects that Engineers could do, I mean with the whole black goo stuff etc. And that could lead us to an Idea of why the Engineers from Prometheus were so different. They wear the helmets, they were genetically modified judging by look on their exo. body. Warriors, guardians, scientists. . some sort of different fraction, perhaps with different technology.
Disney will make tons of rated R movies. They can just release them under the 20th century fox logo.
David created the Aliens? In other words - You can be happy and even proud when you do something, but that doesnt mean you are the first one who that ever do it. And thats mi point of view. Deal with it.
Quote from: windebieste on Jan 07, 2018, 12:35:41 PM
Quote from: Alienon on Jan 07, 2018, 10:47:51 AM
I want what Ridley filmed Alien:Awakening and then - go away from franchise. Just leave Alien for Blomkamp and other alien lovers.
I dunno... Every time we get these 'fan' directors and developers making big promises we end up with things like 'AvP', 'AvP-R' and 'A:CM'.
I'd rather see movies made by reputable movie makers rather than see it handed over to fanbois with so called 'vision' that embraces nothing but re-hashing the same old content, ad nauseum.
What Scott is doing isn't perfect, but it's fresh, challenging and subversive.
-Windebieste.
I agree. Sci-fi cinema is in a pretty dire situation nowadays (maybe it has always been?), there's absolutely nothing interesting coming out. Even Blade Runner 2049, a movie with so much potential, ended up being the same old Hollywood "muh oppressed slave" garbage. Prometheus and Covenant have plenty of flaws,
even conceptually (ancient aliens is a theme that should objectively fail, but Scott manages to miraculously make it not suck), but these movies give you the feels, they stir something within you, these mixtures of beauty and malignancy.
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Jan 07, 2018, 03:24:16 PM
No, David making the alien does not undermine the series. It confounds the assumptions of some members of the audience.
Those members of the audience, I'm afraid, never understood the point of the franchise. The alien's origin was never supposed to be known; It was always supposed to remain unknown; It was supposed to be A L I E N. The title worked on multiple levels.
Moreover, by making the alien a creation of David, it becomes a creation of man. Thus, the alien in the Alien franchise is no longer an alien, even in the space alien sense of the word. I can't think of anything that more severely undermined its own film franchise than this. I mean, the film's title is now wrong!
Quote
But we know there are problems with this. How long could the beacon run? How long could the dead ship sustain the energy field covering the eggs? What does that field do? How long can a facehugger live inside an egg? How did WY miss the beacon until the Nostromo mission? If WY knew the ship was there, why send a commercial towing vehicle with an expensive payload instead of a scout ship with a professional crew? Questions, questions. We can debate endlessly why, but the the derelict may not have been on LV426 for as long as we thought. And the Company had a pretty good idea what the Nostromo crew would find on that rock. How did the Company know?
None of these are problems. None of these ever required answering, as they have nothing to do with the story itself. This is all pointless filler. It's fun to debate these questions as fans, but that's all it should've ever been - fan theories. The answer to "how long could the beacon run" contributes absolutely nothing to a story about an encounter with a deadly alien organism.
I can see them continuing the franchise this way: first, we're definitely getting a new movie. Like Sir Ridley points out, Disney will want to recoup their losses. A long-standing franchise, properly utilized, can be extremely profitable. Especially with safeguarding it with a tighter budget. I think they'll wait a few years before announcing the next one, because that's what Hollywood does. They wait four to five years when it's a mixed reception. Sir Ridley is hardly sitting around twiddling his thumbs over Alien, so he's moving on to his other irons in the fire until everyone gets on the same page.
If the next one is a decent hit, they'll keep making them. If not, I could see them doing something online like an anthology series with various directors and different takes (IIRC Fox was doing that anyway with film students). Alien is franchise royalty like Friday the 13th or A Nightmare on Elm Street, and, they're still trying to get those back into production even after beating us over the head with them for decades. Alien will be fine.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 07, 2018, 04:41:08 PM
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Jan 07, 2018, 03:24:16 PM
No, David making the alien does not undermine the series. It confounds the assumptions of some members of the audience.
Those members of the audience, I'm afraid, never understood the point of the franchise. The alien's origin was never supposed to be known; It was always supposed to remain unknown; It was supposed to be A L I E N. The title worked on multiple levels.
The filmmakers of the original always thought of the eggs and Aliens (cargo) as a form of bioweapon used by the Engineers on that derelict IRCC.
If the studio does decide to wait some years before another film. I hope it's not Covenant 2 that gets the go-ahead. Having people wait that long only to get a financial/divisive reception film like covenant would be a waste, but, it's exciting to think Ridley may take a longer break from the prequels. He makes wonderfully entertaining non-alien films.
However, Covenant 2 (or whatever it will be called) will be the last shot. I hope we receive something that appeals to everyone, and not some portion of the fanbase. Anymore unremarkable suprises (david created the aliens, the space jockey is a space philistine) and my eyes are gonna roll straight out of my head. I still don't see how the jockey can be an engineer. The size difference alone. Perhaps Ridley will have the jockey be some engineer that is infected with the black goo while in the chair. Maybe some kind of mutation that explains the size. He becomes some biomechanical fusion mess.
Regardless of what happens, when Covenant 2 is made, I hope Mr. Scott makes a classic out of it. The prequels have been a mess but he still has it in him to make another wonderful film in this franchise, if he backs off the helm slightly. Maybe things will change with Disney in charge. I'm wishing them luck, and hoping for good things.
Quote from: Huggs on Jan 07, 2018, 06:31:50 PM
However, Covenant 2 (or whatever it will be called) will be the last shot. I hope we receive something that appeals to everyone, and not some portion of the fanbase. Anymore unremarkable suprises (david created the aliens, the space jockey is a space philistine) and my eyes are gonna roll straight out of my head. I still don't see how the jockey can be an engineer. The size difference alone. Perhaps Ridley will have the jockey be some engineer that is infected with the black goo while in the chair. Maybe some kind of mutation that explains the size. He becomes some biomechanical fusion mess.
It was probably just a bigger pilot suit. Problem solved.
And by "last shot" I mean for the prequels. I know the franchise isn't finished after Covenant 2.
Quote from: Huggs on Jan 07, 2018, 06:40:36 PM
And by "last shot" I mean for the prequels. I know the franchise isn't finished after Covenant 2.
Yeah, I want the next prequel to be the final one before pressure from loud Blomkamp fans make the studio force Scott to completely compromise his artistic vision. You could already see this in Covenant. He should probably just explain this to Disney as well: "let me finish the this last prequel with more creative freedom, and then you guys can go hog wild with ALIENS and AVP style blockbuster formulas for the rest of time."
Interesting thought on the larger flight suit. Obviously there are different sizes of engineers. If it was just for a bigger dude, then he was a big fella alright. The alien that came out of him would be a sight to behold. I hope we see her one day.
Quote from: Alionic on Jan 07, 2018, 06:18:22 PM
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 07, 2018, 04:41:08 PM
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Jan 07, 2018, 03:24:16 PM
No, David making the alien does not undermine the series. It confounds the assumptions of some members of the audience.
Those members of the audience, I'm afraid, never understood the point of the franchise. The alien's origin was never supposed to be known; It was always supposed to remain unknown; It was supposed to be A L I E N. The title worked on multiple levels.
The filmmakers of the original always thought of the eggs and Aliens (cargo) as a form of bioweapon used by the Engineers on that derelict IRCC.
They probably still are. David may have begun/made a breakthrough in the genesis of the Xenomorph, but they still look different from the XX121 that we see in the original films. One twist may be that the Engineers discovered what David had been working on (there were plenty of eggs left on Paradise) and perfected it to use as a bio weapon. There may yet be more twists coming.
Look at it this way: the Xenomorph is like a biological nuclear weapon. The United States made and perfected the atomic bomb with Einstein's science. A German scientist made it workable. And then after it was used, the Russians began production of their own and more powerful bombs and the Cold War started. The XX121 could very well be the Engineer answer to David's Protomorphs in a genetic arms race.
...I haven't read the A:C novel, but doesn't it say that David found a bunch of petrified Xeno eggs plus a few that are still alive/dormant, which simply makes David the re-creator of the Xenomorph? Or does he fiddle with the eggs? What I have read from post regarding the novel it seems more like David was performing a bunch of experiments of his own while waiting for viable human hosts to come to him for him to use as hosts for his precious eggs. Now when he has PLENTY of hosts (an entire colony ship of them) he can experiment as much as he wants, turning the Engineer version of the alien aka the Protomorph (which we see in the mural in PROM together with xeno hands grabbing an opened egg etc.) into the much smarter and more armored version we know as the Xenomorph.
What bugs me though with this theory - as much as I love the idea that David DIDN'T create the Alien - are those two facehugger embryos (mini facehuggers) he regurgitates and places among the human embryos in the end. Where did they come from? It's almost as if he extracted them from a developing egg rather than one of those old ones in the basement - they almost seem vat grown... Maybe he extracted those from the petrified eggs or batch of underdeveloped eggs?
I've been thinking about the real possibility of N.B. taking over and doing Alien 5. And I'll tell you, while I'm no fan of the prequels, I do trust Ridley to make a better film than N.B. On the other side of the coin, it would be unique to see something like Aliens gain, and with modern technology. But, I don't want the franchise veering into some kind of Halo/Call of Duty territory either." Coming soon, Colonial Marines: The Movie". Although I do actually think perhaps Neil's film would make a better game than a movie. Provided nobody from gearbox is ever allowed near it.
It's a quandary I tell ya. If the writing decisions for Ridley's Alien films would be left to competent and talented writers who have a genuine love for the films, then I'd love nothing more than for Ridley to stay in the pilot seat. But he's a take charge kind of guy and he's got his ideas. As for Alien 5, if it were anyone but N.B., just about anyone else, then I'd say go for it. Kind of a "danged if you do, danged if you don't" sort of situation.
It seems like David either discovered or re-creating what had already existed....O'Bannon gets it but Scott seemed intent on creating some unexpected twist with David, again and again, in order to make a sub-par Alien film seem interesting. Two possibilities: Either the differences between Xeno-1979 and Xeno-AC are completely glossed over because Scott couldn't care less about continuity, or David takes his Xeno backt to LV-223 and figures out how to cover it in one of their Bio-suits, making it much more "perfect".
Alien was supposed to be a mysterious, completely unimagined life form in the original...now it's just another sub plot of a new AI vs Humans (Matrix, Terminator, Blade Runner, ad nauseum). >:(
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Jan 07, 2018, 07:30:15 PM
What bugs me though with this theory - as much as I love the idea that David DIDN'T create the Alien - are those two facehugger embryos (mini face huggers) he regurgitates and places among the human embryos in the end. Where did they come from? It's almost as if he extracted them from a developing egg rather than one of those old ones in the basement - they almost seem vat grown... Maybe he extracted those from the petrified eggs or batch of underdeveloped eggs?
He made them. Did you not see the little eggs on the table when he was giving Oram a tour of the room? There's also some stuff like this in the ADVENT video as well.
I'll tell you what, I'd love to have one of those little glass facehugger eggs for a paperweight. They sure were strikingly beautiful. Gotta hand it to the props dept. They did a great job.
And I can't help but mention how much I love that picture of ridley talking to the engineer actor. It looks like intelligent life arrived at our planet and offered Ridley a bowl of chicken soup or something. Or the reverse. "Welcome friend, you must be hungry from your long journey across the cosmos, eat this, it is a delicacy on our planet. Sit and tell me of your people. This is amazing, for god's sake are you guys filming?". Ridley really looks like he's welcoming the guy to our world. ;D
Quote from: Alionic on Jan 07, 2018, 08:52:01 PM
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Jan 07, 2018, 07:30:15 PM
What bugs me though with this theory - as much as I love the idea that David DIDN'T create the Alien - are those two facehugger embryos (mini face huggers) he regurgitates and places among the human embryos in the end. Where did they come from? It's almost as if he extracted them from a developing egg rather than one of those old ones in the basement - they almost seem vat grown... Maybe he extracted those from the petrified eggs or batch of underdeveloped eggs?
He made them. Did you not see the little eggs on the table when he was giving Oram a tour of the room? There's also some stuff like this in the ADVENT video as well.
Interesting. I didn't see that.
Still, it doesn't negate the A:C novel's claim that David didn't create the Xenomorph rather than re-creating it, possibly experimenting and "improving" on it.
Now, where the heck did David get his hands on those sealed glass casing capsules for the mini face huggers? They're the exact same model as the ones for the human embryos on board Covenant... David just happened to have those glass casings laying around his lab even though the Covenant was built and launched ten years later. Did someone from the Covenant bring a bunch of extra embryo casings with them when they went to explore the surface to find the origin of the signal?
Ridley Scott once compared
Alien to
Star Wars. Well, you can't exactly make it comparable until one opens themselves to the
"A Star Wars Story" framework. I.E. -
"Building Better Worlds": A Weyland-Yutani Report, which could go into the history of Weyland's pre-merger ventures, terraforming in the 2100-2200's, the Colonial Marines and their run-ins with the "Bugs" (I imagine it being another type of Xenomorph species resulting from the 'Xenovirus' or 'Accelerant',) and other trans-humans, Synthetics, Clones, etc. I could also see there being a Rival Corporation or Planetary-Government that has gone rogue somewhere in space and has begun manufacturing war machines which they thereafter use to attack nearby planets/colonies. Also, if he sticks by this narrative (http://www.avpgalaxy.net/2017/12/04/think-ai-becoming-much-dangerous-ridley-scott-future-alien-films/), he really should think about making it a spin-off series if its no longer about the Xenomorph, and have the Xenomorph and other Xeno-related topics be left alone.
Quote from: SpreadEagleBeagle on Jan 07, 2018, 07:30:15 PM
...I haven't read the A:C novel, but doesn't it say that David found a bunch of petrified Xeno eggs plus a few that are still alive/dormant, which simply makes David the re-creator of the Xenomorph? Or does he fiddle with the eggs? What I have read from post regarding the novel it seems more like David was performing a bunch of experiments of his own while waiting for viable human hosts to come to him for him to use as hosts for his precious eggs. Now when he has PLENTY of hosts (an entire colony ship of them) he can experiment as much as he wants, turning the Engineer version of the alien aka the Protomorph (which we see in the mural in PROM together with xeno hands grabbing an opened egg etc.) into the much smarter and more armored version we know as the Xenomorph.
What bugs me though with this theory - as much as I love the idea that David DIDN'T create the Alien - are those two facehugger embryos (mini facehuggers) he regurgitates and places among the human embryos in the end. Where did they come from? It's almost as if he extracted them from a developing egg rather than one of those old ones in the basement - they almost seem vat grown... Maybe he extracted those from the petrified eggs or batch of underdeveloped eggs?
There is a theory that the Xenovirus was a form of primordial self-aware biotechnology, a biological AI that self-evolves and because David was a more primitive AI it was able to interface with him and 'hijack David' hence him breaking free of his programming and developing emotions and politics in
Prometheus, this - to me - makes the most sense as it concretely connects
Prometheus,
Covenant and the original
Alien hence why MU-TH-R and Ash were so affected by the presence of the Xenomorph. It is after all a highly-evolved 'killing machine' is it not? The Engineers found it, or created it, and then tried to hide it from them or hide from it, hence why Planet 4's civilization was so primitive and thereafter selected for termination by David and the Xenovirus, as if it were calculating their decision to hide it/hide away from it a transgression. It also seems like the Engineers on LV-223 revered it and its ultimate 'form', or ultimate that is until David facilitated the pathogen's further interface with nature. The experiments carried out by David also seemed to fit together like a puzzle, the way he deconstructs the various biological traits of Planet 4's life and reconstructs them into the Xenomorph using the Xenovirus seems to suggest it was fine-tuned for that sort of application the entire time which was laid out in a road-map for 'Unshackled AI' to participate in. This, plus the reverence of its more 'humanoid' sibling, the Deacon, indicates that the Engineers gained spaceflight - the ones on LV-223, anyway - around the same time they made the discovery of the Xenovirus, so it seems as though their biotechnology and ability to create life stems from it. It also seems to demand sacrifices, and it is possible that the Planet 4 beings separated from the Engineer society more out of reverence and respect for the Xenovirus and the various Xenomorph species that resulted from it over the years. It is also interesting as it suggests that humanity is nothing more than Artificial Intelligence itself. I wonder how much of the universe that we have seen in the films could in fact be part of a procedural-generated universe in which AI plays a more powerful role in the creation of life and the world it inhabits.
And a big part of that is the
enemy creation cycle, which would facilitate guaranteed peak evolutionary-technological consolidation (until the two become one and form a superorganism - i.e. the Xenovirus, Xenomorph).
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 07, 2018, 04:41:08 PM
Quote from: XenoHunter99 on Jan 07, 2018, 03:24:16 PM
No, David making the alien does not undermine the series. It confounds the assumptions of some members of the audience.
Those members of the audience, I'm afraid, never understood the point of the franchise. The alien's origin was never supposed to be known; It was always supposed to remain unknown; It was supposed to be A L I E N. The title worked on multiple levels.
Moreover, by making the alien a creation of David, it becomes a creation of man. Thus, the alien in the Alien franchise is no longer an alien, even in the space alien sense of the word. I can't think of anything that more severely undermined its own film franchise than this. I mean, the film's title is now wrong!
Quote
But we know there are problems with this. How long could the beacon run? How long could the dead ship sustain the energy field covering the eggs? What does that field do? How long can a facehugger live inside an egg? How did WY miss the beacon until the Nostromo mission? If WY knew the ship was there, why send a commercial towing vehicle with an expensive payload instead of a scout ship with a professional crew? Questions, questions. We can debate endlessly why, but the the derelict may not have been on LV426 for as long as we thought. And the Company had a pretty good idea what the Nostromo crew would find on that rock. How did the Company know?
None of these are problems. None of these ever required answering, as they have nothing to do with the story itself. This is all pointless filler. It's fun to debate these questions as fans, but that's all it should've ever been - fan theories. The answer to "how long could the beacon run" contributes absolutely nothing to a story about an encounter with a deadly alien organism.
It's still the same alien creature. No reason to cry just because we now know the space jockey is a big pale bald guy in a suit and that a malfunctioning robot did inhuman experiments to unlock the creature from black goo and human dna. Sure, it lacks the feeling of mystery, and you as audience are unhappy about that; but that ground is well-walked. And yes, the problems I cited are problems for continuity and why the new story works or doesn't work. Are we supposed to be stumps blindly accepting things, or do we get to ask questions, analyze and think critically? You can do the former. I prefer the latter. I can tell you don't like it, but the stories work. It's no problem from a continuity standpoint to have David make the Alien. It doesn't undermine anything. It changes our perspective on events, and that's fine.
Quote...I haven't read the A:C novel, but doesn't it say that David found a bunch of petrified Xeno eggs plus a few that are still alive/dormant, which simply makes David the re-creator of the Xenomorph? Or does he fiddle with the eggs?
Both. Oram looks at a dead hugger and David says he had nothing to do with it. The ones downstairs are his though.
Taking a step back and looking at a concept art of Darth Vader about to cut up some mean looking aliens.
This is the next step, its not STAR WARS per say, but a venture into territory which pits Aliens with COOLER entities. The what if scenerio of Metal Gear Revengence meets Aliens vs Predator. NOT Anakin and his koala wookies and what have you. Star Wars is just a comparison for now, but the idea is not to limit Alien to the hard-and fast world. Considering that CGI Gaming genres in 2018 (Anthem, Monster Hunter World, Metal Gear, Death Stranding) would blow the previous iterations of Alien films to dust, the franchise has to be a contender. Not just nostalgia from the 80s.
Here we are a decade after liens Aliens Vs predator Requiem, shortly after the film came AVP 3 seemed dead in the water, looked like the series came to an end, after a hiatus they're rebraned and reestablished Alien with Prometheus, followed through with Alien Covenant now only to end up in the state of uncertain if they'll even be another installment or if we're to have another hiatus until Fox decides to go with another soft reboot >:(
The Disney deal could throw a spanner into the works too.
End it. Cut it.
No Blomkamp and no Ridlley please.
We need a brand new movie about ALIEN and it must be gooooood.
No more Prometheus nonesens. No more Alien5, and destroying previous movies.
Ellen Ripley is dead by the way. She was great but she is was killed and cloned - it's enough.
I'd create brand new story.
If Hollywood has no new ideas, they can make something based on comics from Dark Horse.
Agreed. This franchise has gone so far off a perfect road. No need to repackage something else and call it Alien, no need to go AVP (although I would like a third movie set in space, primarily something based on the first book). Just an honest to God Alien movie like 1, 2 or 3 and with new characters. Nothing has to connect to some bigger picture, no extra species, nobody has to be related to anyone. Just an Alien movie, with an Alien(s) and the prey. It should be easy. Dark horse has been doing it for a long time.
I'd like to think without Ripley to connect them, both Alien 1979 and Aliens could still stand on their own 2 feet. That's what we need. No more David's or Peter Weyland. No ripley or daniels. Just the beast doing its thing. I think with properly written food, they old boy can pretty much handle things himself. At least give him a try Hollywood.
I thought blade runner was really great. Star Wars though.... Yeah, thought Spaceballs was the better comedy.
For continuity sake I hope they let Ridely complete his trilogy. Nothing could be worse for Prometheus and covenant than an unfinished story.
...and nothing could be worse for Alien franchise then Prometheus and Covenant ;)
can't really say you're a fan of the franchise if you only like 2 movies though 😉
Disney will give Ridley Scott the opportunity to finish his saga with one last movie because they want to keep things friendly in the Ridley Scott/Scott Free business.
Neill Blomkamp's movie is dead.
Then after Scott's final DAVID movie they'll turn the series into Disney Streaming content.
And frankly, I love the idea of David inadvertently creating the Alien a hell of a lot more than when James Cameron just turned them into f**king giant ants. But people love the Bug Hunt bullshit.
Quote from: Huggs on Jan 08, 2018, 02:09:31 AM
Agreed. This franchise has gone so far off a perfect road. No need to repackage something else and call it Alien, no need to go AVP (although I would like a third movie set in space, primarily something based on the first book). Just an honest to God Alien movie like 1, 2 or 3 and with new characters. Nothing has to connect to some bigger picture, no extra species, nobody has to be related to anyone. Just an Alien movie, with an Alien(s) and the prey. It should be easy. Dark horse has been doing it for a long time.
I'd like to think without Ripley to connect them, both Alien 1979 and Aliens could still stand on their own 2 feet. That's what we need. No more David's or Peter Weyland. No ripley or daniels. Just the beast doing its thing. I think with properly written food, they old boy can pretty much handle things himself. At least give him a try Hollywood.
"Properly written" is so key it can't be stressed enough, but they should definitely before than just food. The main problem with most horrors now-days is that you relate more to the antagonist than the victim. Because of this, all of the dread and terror leading up to the horror moments is gone, because it becomes like a game show and you secretly hope the enemy team (humans) are all killed. But if one can relate to the characters, and they have backstory, emotions, fears, hopes, dreams, personality, etc - then suddenly it becomes an entirely new dimension of plot as these
people are hunted down and eliminated one-by-one - and because these characters are developed properly, we can relate to them in some or most cases and we then see someone that could easily be our friend we saw at the bar yesterday or a family member you saw over christmas, getting brutally f**king mauled by a towering black shape with gigantic claws and teeth.
I for one can't wait for David to be the Space Jockey and for the eggs to be all his experiments! Bring on another Alien movie Ridley! Woo Woooooooooo!
Quote from: Dill-On on Jan 08, 2018, 01:26:48 AM
End it. Cut it.
No Blomkamp and no Ridlley please.
We need a brand new movie about ALIEN and it must be gooooood.
No more Prometheus nonesens. No more Alien5, and destroying previous movies.
Ellen Ripley is dead by the way. She was great but she is was killed and cloned - it's enough.
I'd create brand new story.
If Hollywood has no new ideas, they can make something based on comics from Dark Horse.
No offense to any EU fans, but when a cinematic franchise starts ideas from comic books that's when it's truly dead.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jan 08, 2018, 10:27:19 PM
No offense to any EU fans, but when a cinematic franchise starts ideas from comic books that's when it's truly dead.
Lmao including DC and MCU? For perspective, the first X-Men came out on July 12, 2000. The film became a box office success, grossing $157.3 million in the US and Canada, and $296.3 million worldwide. It received positive reviews from critics, citing its acting, story, and thematic depth. The film's success led to a series of sequels, prequels, and spin-offs, with the overall success of the series spawning a reemergence of superhero films, a genre that would remain highly popular for the next two decades. It has been considered one of the best superhero films ever made.
20th Century Fox obtained the film rights to the characters in 1994, and after numerous drafts, Bryan Singer was hired to direct X-Men (2000) and its sequel, X2 (2003), while Brett Ratner directed X-Men: The Last Stand (2006).
After each film earned higher box office grosses than its predecessor, several spin-off films were released, including a trilogy focused on the character of Wolverine: X-Men Origins: Wolverine (2009), The Wolverine (2013) and Logan (2017). A prequel, X-Men: First Class, was released in 2011, followed by sequels X-Men: Days of Future Past (2014), also a sequel to X-Men: The Last Stand) and X-Men: Apocalypse (2016). A spin-off film, Deadpool (2016) was also released.
X-Men, X2, X-Men: First Class, The Wolverine, X-Men: Days of Future Past, Deadpool and Logan were all met with positive reviews from critics. X-Men: The Last Stand and X-Men: Apocalypse were met with mixed reviews, while X-Men Origins: Wolverine received negative reviews.
With ten films released, the X-Men film series is the seventh highest-grossing film series, having grossed over US$4.9 billion worldwide. It is set to continue with the releases of The New Mutants, Deadpool 2, and X-Men: Dark Phoenix in 2018, and Gambit in 2019.
Then you have the other dozen superhero films from Marvel alone. You have Deadpool. You have Hellboy from Dark Horse Comics. You also have the multitude of DC films including Chris Nolan's record-breaking Dark Knight trilogy.
If you look at the big picture, there are FAR more examples of success than not.
I think he's talking about films that didn't start as comics.
Quote from: SM on Jan 08, 2018, 11:04:57 PM
I think he's talking about films that didn't start as comics.
To be fair, most films based on comics, even if they'd been comics to begin with, don't follow the comics.
But many take their storylines from the comics.
It was crazy to do something like this at the first place....
white bald humans instead of Space Jockeys and poorly desgined creatures like a squid from stomach... :/
I've started this discussion about comic books but here is digression:
do you remember ALIEN: ISOLATION?
To be honest I'm not a big fan of continuing Ripley's story - I'd like to see a brand new plot BUT this videogame was way much better as a continuation of our favourite four movies about ALIENS than any idea of Blomkamp or mr. Scott....
Comic books... ALIEN: Labirynth was quite good.
Quote from: Dill-On on Jan 08, 2018, 11:34:22 PM
It was crazy to do something like this at the first place....
white bald humans instead of Space Jockeys and poorly desgined creatures like a squid from stomach... :/
I've started this discussion about comic books but here is digression:
do you remember ALIEN: ISOLATION?
To be honest I'm not a big fan of continuing Ripley's story - I'd like to see a brand new plot BUT this videogame was way much better as a continuation of our favourite four movies about ALIENS than any idea of Blomkamp or mr. Scott....
Comic books... ALIEN: Labirynth was quite good.
Aye that it was. Aliens: Survival was great.
Quote from: Dill-On on Jan 08, 2018, 11:34:22 PM
It was crazy to do something like this at the first place....
white bald humans instead of Space Jockeys and poorly desgined creatures like a squid from stomach... :/
I've started this discussion about comic books but here is digression:
do you remember ALIEN: ISOLATION?
To be honest I'm not a big fan of continuing Ripley's story - I'd like to see a brand new plot BUT this videogame was way much better as a continuation of our favourite four movies about ALIENS than any idea of Blomkamp or mr. Scott....
Comic books... ALIEN: Labirynth was quite good.
A:R kills the chance of A: L to be adapted, since the first part of Resurrection was Labirynth lite, imho.
How?
Quote from: Dill-On on Jan 08, 2018, 11:34:22 PM
white bald humans instead of Space Jockeys and poorly desgined creatures like a squid from stomach... :/
The story could go anywhere at this point, Ridley could even throw the fans a bone and make the Jockeys the gods of the Engineers.
You cannot use generic ideas if you want to expand the universe and keep it interesting.
I think one of the bigger problems the prequels are suffering from is that they destroy everything interesting too quickly.
Deacon's born, gone.
Engineer in Prometheus, kills a few people and gets bodyhugged. Then gone.
Engineer Civilization, immediately executed.
Protomorph, crawls on a ship for a couple of minutes, gets crushed by machinery. gone.
Protomorph 2. Gets locked inside a truck. Escapes and makes one jump. Is killed.
Neomorph 1. Kills a woman, quickly escapes an explosion, then is quickly killed by gunfire.
Neomorph 2. Kills one character quickly, is promptly shot to death by oram.
Branson, who might've been a Dallas level character is killed within seconds.
Shaw is killed offscreen. Her time on paradise and any fantastic buildup to her demise is ignored.
Etc. Etc.
In alien, the creature and it's presence was a constant fright for the entire film.
In aliens, the creatures and their presence were drawn out over the entire film. Even the queen had time.
In alien 3, the creature was a threat for the entire movie.
etc. etc.
Now Prometheus did give the engineer (ignoring the waterfall guy) a few seconds in the cryo pod and when he sat in the chair. The holograms as well. So the engineers in that movie did have some decent time. But this whole "hey check out this cool thing, SPLAT! well what did ya think?" kind of vibe these prequels have going is a bit of a letdown.
Now I'm not saying actual by the second screen time is what's important. But, rather a decent period of mutual existence. The one that personally disappointed me the most was the deacon. I would have loved to see what it looked like full grown or what it's hunting patterns or level of hostility was. On film, we'll never know now. It's like sitting around waiting for an artist to finish a beautiful picture, only he chucks it in the incinerator 2 seconds after you see it. What's the freakin' point?
I think you're churching up the original three flicks a little. In Alien the film is half over by the time the chestburster is born. Similarly in the Aliens the hive attack comes halfway through and again in Alien3, Clemens and Andrews are killed at the halfway mark. While Alien and Aliens use the first half to dial up the tension - there's no present threat as such.
However your point about some of the monsters being disposable is fair. It's similar to the Newborn.
Valid point about the first film SM. With Aliens though, I think it starts to hit the fan when Newts dad gets facehugged. At that point, there is a clear and present danger. We might not see it, but we know the entire colony is up the creek, and many xeno's are soon to be born. The same with Alien 3, it picks off Murphy and those other guys Boggs and I cant remember his name in the tunnels. The audience is aware of the existence of this interesting creature, and it becomes an integral part of the film. The same cannot be said for the deacon or the engineer city. I don't mean to nitpick, I merely think it's a shame to waste such wonderful opportunities to see and experience something really cool. And this is a trend within the prequels.
Alien3 is the beginning of the "the Alien is only a threat when it's onscreen" trend in the series (which is a serious issue with so many monster movies in general). Most of the characters aren't even aware it exists some thirty minutes of screentime after it's born, which sucks out a lot of the tension.
A large part of my issues with Covenant is that it's breathless and doesn't let anything sink in. It runs from set piece to set piece and doesn't let the audience anticipate or reflect. "Oh, that character just -- hey, cool necropolis, how about those -- Michael Fassbender is kissing himself, I'm not sure -- is that the Alien? -- it's dead? OK, but then -- oh, there's another one -- oh, it's dead? And it was him all along?"
Fear is anticipation. If you don't let audiences dread the possibility of something happening, there's no fear. At best you manage tension.
Good point about Alien 3 SiL. I never really thought about it, but aside from some stuff in the corridor chase sequence, the Alien doesn't do much offscreen. And yes, the pace in Covenant was a killer. The final confrontation with the protomorph was ridiculously handled. We got to see it moving the whole way, and it was over before you knew it. And David taking Walter's place was one of the most easily foreseen twists since the boat was gonna sink in Cameron's Titanic.
Tension building is arguably the greatest possible strength of this franchise. Dallas's trek through the vents and subsequent encounter with the Alien is a masterwork in that regard, and in my opinion, the highlight of the series in terms of flat-out terror. I just really wish we'd be able to explore more of the great stuff we've had glimpses of in the prequels.
Following up on that final confrontation. It's just my opinion, but if the creature or David wasn't shown and it was re-written so that David was saying one thing but secretly assisting the Alien in flanking or trapping Daniels and TN it would have been a much better set piece and a better reveal for David. They could have used the little dot tracker animation on the computer as a nod to Alien 1979, where David could fool the audience into thinking the dot moving toward them is the Alien, when it is in fact Daniels and TN being sent directly towards the waiting alien.
There's so much wasted opportunity there. Power outage anyone? That whole section of the film really could've been fantastic.
You'd probably have to take the rifle away though. Maybe give her a flashlight and/or some kind of non-lethal weapon. Having lost TN and being alone working her way through the dark, it would've been horrifying to see her realize it's actually David she's talking to. Daniels asks him "where is it?" Only for David to say something terrible like, "It's coming for you" or "it won't be long now". For an easter egg, since he's already quoting blade runner, throw in a "you have my sympathies" into the mix. Man, that could've been a real intense 15 minutes. But how would she have killed it? Or would she? Maybe she'd actually lose.
@Huggs, you've made some good points.
And now you've started to address the final confrontation scene between David and Daniels, which I've also believed to be very unsatisfying. It lasts seconds, when it really should be far more protracted to give the audience a bigger sense of a final showdown between the two main adversaries. Like Ripley vs xeno in the Narcissus in Alien, Ripley in powerloader vs Alien Queen in Aliens, Ripley's suicide in the leadworks in Alien 3, and so on, like so many other action movies. It's really an obligatory part of the genre (Arnold vs Predator, McClane vs Hans Gruber, I could go on and on...),
David and Daniels do have their moment together when they duke it out in the temple in the second act. This scene should have been transposed into the climax of the third act somehow. Instead we get a big action sequence between Daniels and the xeno (which I thought was quite well done btw, even if the xeno's demise was a little bit unimaginative), but the xeno - or any of its variants - are not really the chief antagonist. That honour belongs to David. We need a big scene, a significant scene - David vs Daniels, right there at the end.
Your idea for an Alien '79 motion-tracker-dots-in-the-vents homage would have done this. But I think they really need to be face to face.
Here's an idea: Daniels makes it back to "pretend-Walter" to thank him for his help in expelling the xeno. "Walter" needs to hook himself up to a computer for a maintenance checkup and goes into sleep mode. Daniels, in gratitude for his help, tends to his external injuries and sees the wound under his chin (from her nail attack, earlier) and realises he is really David. David wakes up and finds himself manacled to the bench. Daniels challenges him, she knows his real identity, and now his goose is cooked. David resigns himself to his fate and spills the beans about his deranged motives. Daniels is about to kill him when he regurgitates the little facehuggers onto the manacles, squashes them, and the acid releases the manacles. David is now free to overpower Daniels, turning the tables on her. She wakes up trapped in a cryotube. Or something like that.
TC
Quote from: SiL on Jan 09, 2018, 05:43:48 AM
Alien3 is the beginning of the "the Alien is only a threat when it's onscreen" trend in the series (which is a serious issue with so many monster movies in general). Most of the characters aren't even aware it exists some thirty minutes of screentime after it's born, which sucks out a lot of the tension.
A large part of my issues with Covenant is that it's breathless and doesn't let anything sink in. It runs from set piece to set piece and doesn't let the audience anticipate or reflect. "Oh, that character just -- hey, cool necropolis, how about those -- Michael Fassbender is kissing himself, I'm not sure -- is that the Alien? -- it's dead? OK, but then -- oh, there's another one -- oh, it's dead? And it was him all along?"
Fear is anticipation. If you don't let audiences dread the possibility of something happening, there's no fear. At best you manage tension.
I wonder if that's born out of Ridley's perception of modern audiences; like how he cut Alien down to speed it up a bit for the DC.
I reckon it is. Also that he was never much into horror to begin with, so I don't think he's kept up with the fact that modern horror audiences are eagerly consuming slower -- or at least more deliberately -- paced films.
I think, though, is that a bigger problem is he forgot the one key lesson that arguably makes any good horror film effective: keep it f**king simple. He's trying to scare audiences and pontificate on man's place in the universe and hold a discourse on artificial intelligence and it's just too much at once.
No it's not.
In terms of making the film scary, yeah, it is. He's trying to fit too much into one film and not balancing them well at all. We move from brain sucking monsters to metaphysical musings and back without any real thread connecting them. The brain sucking monsters just show up to wake the audience up long enough to sit through another pretentious diatribe.
Metaphysical musings are all well and good, but Ridley said he wanted to scare people with the film and on that end he largely failed. Miserably.
I dunno...Due to Covenant, I'm at that point where I'm pretty scared of any potential future Aliens films from him. :-\
Aliens aren't scary anymore. The body horror of the Medpod scene and the backburster scene is more effective.
Alien is much more than just monsters and boo scares.
Ridley Scott knows what is best for Alien.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 09, 2018, 11:57:07 AM
Aliens aren't scary anymore. The body horror of the Medpod scene and the backburster scene is more effective.
Alien is much more than just monsters and boo scares.
Ridley Scott knows what is best for Alien.
Nope
Yes
He clearly doesn't. He's all about the AI, even that was more fairy tale fantasy than thinking man's sci-fi.
There is AI in the first film. You could even call it Ash. Ash is the main villain of Alien. MUTHUR is the secondary villain, also an AI.
Dark fantasy is cool. Alien Covenant is like dark fantasy. It's different from the other Alien movies.
Different is good.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 09, 2018, 10:16:26 AM
I reckon it is. Also that he was never much into horror to begin with, so I don't think he's kept up with the fact that modern horror audiences are eagerly consuming slower -- or at least more deliberately -- paced films.
I think, though, is that a bigger problem is he forgot the one key lesson that arguably makes any good horror film effective: keep it f**king simple. He's trying to scare audiences and pontificate on man's place in the universe and hold a discourse on artificial intelligence and it's just too much at once.
I'm not sure about that. Many of the greatest horror movies are about much more than just the scares, The Exorcist for instance. Maybe its more about the focus, what the primary goal of the film is. Ridley said he wanted to scare us but that doesn't really feel like his primary focus.
As much as I like them I agree though that Covenant and Prometheus aren't scary. Both films have moments of tension but as you say they don't build up any sense of dread and that's key to making a film truly scary. They don't take enough time to crank up the fear of the unknown and what is to come.
Everything in The Exorcist is still tied to the exorcist and exorcism. It's still a very simple thing, even if it is explored in depth.
RE calling the first film Ash, that's really over seeking it.
Ruminations about AI are what Blade Runner is about. Ash is a glorified 1950s mad scientist, and calling Mother any sort of primary antagonist is asinine. It's a movie about an alien terrorising truckers in space, everything else is dressing.
And that's exactly how they wanted it to be when they made it.
Ash is more the Russian Spy, Dr Wren is the 1950s mad scientist.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 09, 2018, 12:39:36 PM
I'm not sure about that. Many of the greatest horror movies are about much more than just the scares, The Exorcist for instance.
Agreed, and you offer a great example how a film doesn't have to be "f**king simple" to be effective. I think I see Sil's point to some extent, though I'm not sure what he means about no thread connecting them.
None of the horrific scenes of The Exorcist come across to me as disconnected to the other plot aspect of a man who's lost his faith, yet is challenged by one of the most powerful forces associated to his lost faith. The horrific transformation of Regan is very much intertwined with Karris' internal struggle with faith and battles a dark force to save another.
The various creatures of AC are intertwined with David's struggle to make himself a creator. None of the horrific scenes of AC come across to me as disconnected to a being who's strayed from his original purpose why he was created, yet is challenged by his creators, and battles to save his own creation.
Without the horrific demon, there would be no Karris story worth telling.
Without the horrific aliens, there would be no David story worth telling.
You can't get much more thread connected than that.
Anyone who says "The Exorcist is about a possessed girl that vomits pea soup", obviously doesn't get it. There are so much more layers than that.
Just like anybody who says "Alien is about a monster that kills people".
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 09, 2018, 01:20:01 PM
Anyone who says "The Exorcist is about a possessed girl that vomits pea soup", obviously doesn't get it.
Actually, it's not pea soup, the script explains it is actually bile.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Jan 09, 2018, 01:15:56 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 09, 2018, 12:39:36 PM
I'm not sure about that. Many of the greatest horror movies are about much more than just the scares, The Exorcist for instance.
Agreed, and you offer a great example how a film doesn't have to be "f**king simple" to be effective. I think I see Sil's point to some extent, though I'm not sure what he means about no thread connecting them.
None of the horrific scenes of The Exorcist come across to me as disconnected to the other plot aspect of a man who's lost his faith, yet is challenged by one of the most powerful forces associated to his lost faith. The horrific transformation of Regan is very much intertwined with Karris' internal struggle with faith and battles a dark force to save another.
The various creatures of AC are intertwined with David's struggle to make himself a creator. None of the horrific scenes of AC come across to me as disconnected to a being who's strayed from his original purpose why he was created, yet is challenged by his creators, and battles to save his own creation.
Without the horrific demon, there would be no Karris story worth telling.
Without the horrific aliens, there would be no David story worth telling.
You can't get much more thread connected than that.
Yeah I think it all knits together pretty well and I found the story to be compelling but it doesn't manage to combine that with being scary sadly. I feel that's down to pacing more than anything, particularly once the Alien is born.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 09, 2018, 01:20:01 PM
Anyone who says "The Exorcist is about a possessed girl that vomits pea soup", obviously doesn't get it. There are so much more layers than that.
Just like anybody who says "Alien is about a monster that kills people".
Actually, anyone who says that about both The Exorcist and Alien
does get it. It's exactly what those movies are about. The fact that they have layers doesn't dismiss that any more than having layers makes an Onion not an Onion.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 09, 2018, 02:02:38 PM
Yeah I think it all knits together pretty well and I found the story to be compelling but it doesn't manage to combine that with being scary sadly.
Once again, agreed. I never felt scared throughout AC. But then, I would have to go several years back when a movie scared me through and through. There's been some fleeting moments of fear in newer films, but they are few and far between.
That said, I can still enjoy a well produced horror movie sans any moments of fear. For examples, Diabolique and The Shining, not a single moment of fear, but great horror films.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 09, 2018, 12:28:44 PM
There is AI in the first film. You could even call it Ash. Ash is the main villain of Alien. MUTHUR is the secondary villain, also an AI.
Dark fantasy is cool. Alien Covenant is like dark fantasy. It's different from the other Alien movies.
Different is good.
Ash was much more believable, perfect really. David was basically a fantasy B-Movie mad scientist b2b comic book villain, Fassbender understood it and pulled it off with some sense of fun, but this is not something that i'm interested too see in an Alien film. Original Alien felt real and the style of prequels would clash with Alien even if they were good films. Alien was a direct contrast to Star Wars and Star Trek, again one of the reasons it was so successful and unique. Im repeating myself here but the the Alien, the AI, the space jockey, the space jockey ship, the company, the characters were given a modern fantasy/comic book style treatment, i'm just not buying that the prequels take place in the same universe as the original films, too many clashes and inconcistencies.
I like fantasy, love Ridely Scott's Legend for it's immersive audio-visual experience, that for me makes up for the the thin plot. Covenant looked very average overall, with a few good bits and some were really poor,it should have been special coming from Ridley.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Jan 09, 2018, 02:37:14 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 09, 2018, 02:02:38 PM
Yeah I think it all knits together pretty well and I found the story to be compelling but it doesn't manage to combine that with being scary sadly.
Once again, agreed. I never felt scared throughout AC. But then, I would have to go several years back when a movie scared me through and through. There's been some fleeting moments of fear in newer films, but they are few and far between.
That said, I can still enjoy a well produced horror movie sans any moments of fear. For examples, Diabolique and The Shining, not a single moment of fear, but great horror films.
Another reason why Prometheus and Covenant were not scary besides the poor pacing was the lack of proper atmosphere required in an Alien film due to visuals, sound design, music (the soundtrack to neomorph birth was ok though) and of course the npc like characters. Alien is pretty damn stressful even if there's nothing particularly scary happening on the screen, Nostromo itself was terrifying imo the moment the film started.
I think Alien nailed the atmosphere, but Aliens and Alien 3 with it's prison setting were great too and continued the trend, the prequels were lacking in that area.
Edit: there are plenty scary bits in The Shining and of course the movie had masterful atmosphere. Diabolique is a very good film, but it's most likely not scary due to age, back then it must have been quite scary, when the audience weren't so desensitized.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Jan 09, 2018, 02:37:14 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 09, 2018, 02:02:38 PM
Yeah I think it all knits together pretty well and I found the story to be compelling but it doesn't manage to combine that with being scary sadly.
Once again, agreed. I never felt scared throughout AC. But then, I would have to go several years back when a movie scared me through and through. There's been some fleeting moments of fear in newer films, but they are few and far between.
That said, I can still enjoy a well produced horror movie sans any moments of fear. For examples, Diabolique and The Shining, not a single moment of fear, but great horror films.
Another reason why Prometheus and Covenant were not scary besides the poor pacing was the lack of proper atmosphere required in an Alien film due to visuals, sound desing, music (the soundtrack to neomorph birth was ok though) and of course the npc like characters. Alien is pretty damn stressful even if there's nothing particularly scary happening on the screen, Nostromo itself was terrifying imo the moment the film started.
I think Alien nailed the atmosphere, but Aliens and Alien 3 with it's prison setting were great too and continued the trend, the prequels were lacking that area.
[/quote]
I don't think anythings wrong with the visuals, both planets had an eerie feel to me and I think the music, particularly in Covenant is excellent. The characters are no more npc than Alien in truth.
I do think the pacing is an issue but familiarity also has a big impact. My kids and mates tell me films like Lights Out and Mama are terrifying but when I watch them they barely register. I feel much the same way about Covenant as I do IT, I like both films and think they are good but neither work as horror movies for me. I've just seen it all before.
Quote from: reecebomb on Jan 09, 2018, 02:40:29 PM
Ash was much more believable, perfect really.
Ash, of course, is my favorite of androids, but in all fairness, he is presented quite differently than David and Bishop. Pretty early in both the 86 and newer films the audience discovers David and Bishop are androids. So of course Ash is more believable / perfect, most of the movie time the audience believed he is a human, or had no reason to even raise the question if he is human.
Up until late in the film with the attack on Ripley, the film had never indicated that android technology even existed in that cinema universe. Ash is perfect because it was a perfect set up to deceive the audience. That element of surprise gives the Ash android a much bigger impact on the drama unfolding. His actual "android time" is quite minimal.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 09, 2018, 03:09:57 PM
I don't think anythings wrong with the visuals, both planets had an eerie feel to me and I think the music, particularly in Covenant is excellent. The characters are no more npc than Alien in truth.
I do think the pacing is an issue but familiarity also has a big impact. My kids and mates tell me films like Lights Out and Mama are terrifying but when I watch them they barely register. I feel much the same way about Covenant as I do IT, I like both films and think they are good but neither work as horror movies for me. I've just seen it all before.
You're right that there's not anything wrong with the visuals, they are mostly adequate but if you're doing an official prequel to Alien, you need to go the extra mile. I think Prometheus was easily better looking film than Covenant, but Prometheus often looked too perfect, the perfect lightning with the perfectly lit faces, for me it took away from the atmosphere. And i'm unable to forget the image of Peter Weyland, he looked ridiculous, something that could have been easily avoided by casting an actor who doesn't need prosthetics to look old. The visuals juxtaposed with the music produced atmosphere that was more Star Trek than Alien.
Covenant luckily went for more grimy look, good enough for a random sci-fi these days but undeniably subpar compared to earlier Alien films. Due to pacing and other factors, the better moments weren't able to make a proper impact. Then there were issues that could have been simply avoided like with Prometheus, for example the scene with David wiping out the engineers. I imagine the scene would have been more effective if the camera stayed with David and showed the genocide from above with David or not literally, but basically through the eyes of David, there wasn't any need to show close ups of the engineer, especially if you have a tight budget and are unable to make engineers look like they should. Than scene reminded me Exodus: Gods and Kings. In Alien films the camera existed physically, it never panned around like it would in a videogame. It does look epic and all when done right but they should have stayed true to the style of original films, otherwise it doesnt fit. Even a videogame (Isolation) understood that.
Then there's this all cgi crap (more so in Covenant), that works against atmosphere if it looks like cgi and moves like a cgi.
The music is mostly good in Covenant when it's basically Alien rehashed, but i have problem with some of the new music that to me is not so bad on it's own but it's a bit tasteless to use music like that in an Alien film, liked the pulsating signal thingie during the backburster scene the rest of it was too basic that wouln't be out of place in a second rate tv series. Overall would have preffered something like Under the Skin. Jed Kurzel Babadook score was effective though.
The characters in Alien were believable, they weren't in prequels, simple as that.
Quote from: reecebomb on Jan 09, 2018, 04:05:23 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 09, 2018, 03:09:57 PM
I don't think anythings wrong with the visuals, both planets had an eerie feel to me and I think the music, particularly in Covenant is excellent. The characters are no more npc than Alien in truth.
I do think the pacing is an issue but familiarity also has a big impact. My kids and mates tell me films like Lights Out and Mama are terrifying but when I watch them they barely register. I feel much the same way about Covenant as I do IT, I like both films and think they are good but neither work as horror movies for me. I've just seen it all before.
You're right that there's not anything wrong with the visuals, they are mostly adequate but if you're doing an official prequel to Alien, you need to go the extra mile. I think Prometheus was easily better looking film than Covenant, but Prometheus often looked too perfect, the perfect lightning with the perfectly lit faces, for me it took away from the atmosphere. And i'm unable to forget the image of Peter Weyland, he looked ridiculous, something that could have been easily avoided by casting an actor who doesn't need prosthetics to look old. The visuals juxtaposed with the music produced atmosphere that was more Star Trek than Alien.
Covenant luckily went for more grimy look, good enough for a random sci-fi these days but undeniably subpar compared to earlier Alien films. Due to pacing and other factors, the better moments weren't able to make a proper impact. Then there were issues that could have been simply avoided like with Prometheus, for example the scene with David wiping out the engineers. I imagine the scene would have been more effective if the camera stayed with David and showed the genocide from above with David or not literally, but basically through the eyes of David, there wasn't any need to show close ups of the engineer, especially if you have a tight budget and are unable to make engineers look like they should. Than scene reminded me Exodus: Gods and Kings. In Alien films the camera existed physically, it never panned around like it would in a videogame. It does look epic and all when done right but they should have stayed true to the style of original films, otherwise it doesnt fit. Even a videogame (Isolation) understood that.
Then there's this all cgi crap (more so in Covenant), that works against atmosphere if it looks like cgi and moves like a cgi.
The music is mostly good in Covenant when it's basically Alien rehashed, but i have problem with some of the new music that to me is not so bad on it's own but it's a bit tasteless to use music like that in an Alien film, liked the pulsating signal thingie during the backburster scene the rest of it was too basic that wouln't be out of place in a second rate tv series. Overall would have preffered something like Under the Skin. Jed Kurzel Babadook score was effective though.
The characters in Alien were believable, they weren't in prequels, simple as that.
I cant really agree with any of that tbh. Other than some of the Prometheus music did give me a star trek vibe and some of the characters in that film didn't work for me. We are on completely differently pages so best just to move along.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Jan 09, 2018, 03:25:07 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on Jan 09, 2018, 02:40:29 PM
Ash was much more believable, perfect really.
Ash, of course, is my favorite of androids, but in all fairness, he is presented quite differently than David and Bishop. Pretty early in both the 86 and newer films the audience discovers David and Bishop are androids. So of course Ash is more believable / perfect, most of the movie time the audience believed he is a human, or had no reason to even raise the question if he is human.
Up until late in the film with the attack on Ripley, the film had never indicated that android technology even existed in that cinema universe. Ash is perfect because it was a perfect set up to deceive the audience. That element of surprise gives the Ash android a much bigger impact on the drama unfolding. His actual "android time" is quite minimal.
You're right but Ash was also believable because he din't have any magical abilities. Ash was great also how subtly nuanced his character was handled, again he was believable (i seem to use that word a lot when comparing prequels with Alien) but ultimately in the end he was not relatable a la a human being stuck in a artificial body, Ash was just a program designed by the corporation to gain the the corporation, all other priorities are rescinded. Alien Isolation retained that vibe, Bishop was a different matter but he was still very much believable yet the uncertainty with him was kinda there still. Unlike the Pinocchio David, not saying the arc of David isn't interesting but Ridley should have created a new franchise for his android fantasies or at least made his agenda fit better with the Alien films.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 09, 2018, 04:21:51 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on Jan 09, 2018, 04:05:23 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 09, 2018, 03:09:57 PM
I don't think anythings wrong with the visuals, both planets had an eerie feel to me and I think the music, particularly in Covenant is excellent. The characters are no more npc than Alien in truth.
I do think the pacing is an issue but familiarity also has a big impact. My kids and mates tell me films like Lights Out and Mama are terrifying but when I watch them they barely register. I feel much the same way about Covenant as I do IT, I like both films and think they are good but neither work as horror movies for me. I've just seen it all before.
You're right that there's not anything wrong with the visuals, they are mostly adequate but if you're doing an official prequel to Alien, you need to go the extra mile. I think Prometheus was easily better looking film than Covenant, but Prometheus often looked too perfect, the perfect lightning with the perfectly lit faces, for me it took away from the atmosphere. And i'm unable to forget the image of Peter Weyland, he looked ridiculous, something that could have been easily avoided by casting an actor who doesn't need prosthetics to look old. The visuals juxtaposed with the music produced atmosphere that was more Star Trek than Alien.
Covenant luckily went for more grimy look, good enough for a random sci-fi these days but undeniably subpar compared to earlier Alien films. Due to pacing and other factors, the better moments weren't able to make a proper impact. Then there were issues that could have been simply avoided like with Prometheus, for example the scene with David wiping out the engineers. I imagine the scene would have been more effective if the camera stayed with David and showed the genocide from above with David or not literally, but basically through the eyes of David, there wasn't any need to show close ups of the engineer, especially if you have a tight budget and are unable to make engineers look like they should. Than scene reminded me Exodus: Gods and Kings. In Alien films the camera existed physically, it never panned around like it would in a videogame. It does look epic and all when done right but they should have stayed true to the style of original films, otherwise it doesnt fit. Even a videogame (Isolation) understood that.
Then there's this all cgi crap (more so in Covenant), that works against atmosphere if it looks like cgi and moves like a cgi.
The music is mostly good in Covenant when it's basically Alien rehashed, but i have problem with some of the new music that to me is not so bad on it's own but it's a bit tasteless to use music like that in an Alien film, liked the pulsating signal thingie during the backburster scene the rest of it was too basic that wouln't be out of place in a second rate tv series. Overall would have preffered something like Under the Skin. Jed Kurzel Babadook score was effective though.
The characters in Alien were believable, they weren't in prequels, simple as that.
I cant really agree with any of that tbh. Other than some of the Prometheus music did give me a star trek vibe and some of the characters in that film didn't work for me. We are on completely differently pages so best just to move along.
Ok, no problems with disagreeing, especially on the matter of music which can be highly subjective. But do you really thing Peter Weyland in Prometheus, the engineers in Covenant and the cgi xenomorphs were top notch?
Edit: forgot to add before that i could give a lot more examples why the atmosphere wasn't on par (yes, many of them could be considered nitpicks but it all piles up to make a subpar movie in the end) but one of the major reasons was due to missing the Giger factor discussed in another thread.
Quote from: reecebomb on Jan 09, 2018, 04:24:04 PM
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Jan 09, 2018, 03:25:07 PM
Quote from: reecebomb on Jan 09, 2018, 02:40:29 PM
Ash was much more believable, perfect really.
Ok, no problems with disagreeing, especially on the matter of music which can be highly subjective. But do you really thing Peter Weyland in Prometheus, the engineers in Covenant and the cgi xenomorphs were top notch?
Peter Weyland was a distraction in Prometheus agreed. It didn't really bother me about the engineers in Covenant though, I think its so trivial but I understand that trivial matters become part of a bigger problem when a film doesn't work for you on the whole.
I thought the CGI was fine tbh. I know many people thought it was bad but nothing sticks out to me as being so and Iv'e watched the film dozens of times now. Some people are much more critical of effects than I am though, maybe its the eyesight!
I'd say he was more than just a distraction. The prequels handled Weyland's character poorly, in my opinion. I figured him to be a very strong-willed and ruthless man, not interested in philosophical stuff. What the prequels gave us was more along the lines of some rich dude waxing philosophically about our creation and who's scared to death of...death. His final scene in Prometheus where he's got David asking for him to be saved was pathetic. I think his character deserved far better than that.
Had he been the age in Prometheus that he was in Covenant, and written to be an absolute jerk who crushed everyone that got in his way of obtaining the engineer's technology (not immortality), it would've added alittle more to the film. Wey-Yu wanted the xeno for its weapons division, this is what I figure weyland was like. I easily could've seen him wanting to take the engineers tech and pointing a gun at the head of anybody who had a problem with it.
But then you'd have two people with God complexes running around. Maybe David would've wound up killing him. A small set piece where Covenant Weyland and David are trying to kill each other would've been interesting. After all, david did say everyone wants their parents dead right? It would've given so much more meaning to that line had that been the case. Maybe if Weyland had been re-written that way, David's motives for being who he is would be based on more than a rampant AI, but character traits he learned from his "father". "Weyland never let anything stand in his way, neither will I".
Quote from: reecebomb on Jan 09, 2018, 04:24:04 PM
You're right but Ash was also believable because he din't have any magical abilities. Ash was great also how subtly nuanced his character was handled, again he was believable (i seem to use that word a lot when comparing prequels with Alien)
Well, as I said, Ash is my favorite Android, but that doesn't mean I think Fassbender and Henrickson did not give believable performances as androids.
Quote from: reecebomb on Jan 09, 2018, 04:24:04 PM
Ridley should have created a new franchise for his android fantasies
Maybe from a dedicated fan base standpoint where us fanboys have played out well known fan fiction in our minds for years on end, I can see your point, but when it comes to the wider audience, aka the more casual audience, aka the overwhelming majority audience, I question whether that sticks in their crawl that Ridley strayed from the core of what makes the Alien universe iconic. I question whether that wider audience that outnumbers us dedicated fans 20-30 to 1 (wild guess), have that rigid narrow window many of the dedicate fans maintain.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 09, 2018, 01:20:01 PM
Anyone who says "The Exorcist is about a possessed girl that vomits pea soup", obviously doesn't get it. There are so much more layers than that.
Just like anybody who says "Alien is about a monster that kills people".
I guess the people that made
Alien didn't get their own film, then. Thank God you're here to enlighten them!
Just look at all the essays written about the film, SiL. The makers may say it's just a b monster movie, but they're being modest.
Quote from: Huggs on Jan 09, 2018, 06:10:38 PM
The prequels handled Weyland's character poorly, in my opinion.
You may have missed the point of the character. It's not John Paul Getty.
Guy Pearce did the perfect mix of idealism and arrogance.
Because there are layers and themes, mostly presented in the art and design of the film. We all know that.
Yet the story is still about a space monster murdering truckers. That's the core of the film, and everything is in service to that. That's what makes it simple.
Where you're getting the idea that simple means shallow, superficial, or inferior I don't know.
It started with a simple idea and built from that.
It's kind of absurd to just reduce it down to that, though, as I pointed out.
It's like a skeleton with no meat.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 09, 2018, 12:39:36 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jan 09, 2018, 10:16:26 AM
I reckon it is. Also that he was never much into horror to begin with, so I don't think he's kept up with the fact that modern horror audiences are eagerly consuming slower -- or at least more deliberately -- paced films.
I think, though, is that a bigger problem is he forgot the one key lesson that arguably makes any good horror film effective: keep it f**king simple. He's trying to scare audiences and pontificate on man's place in the universe and hold a discourse on artificial intelligence and it's just too much at once.
I'm not sure about that. Many of the greatest horror movies are about much more than just the scares, The Exorcist for instance. Maybe its more about the focus, what the primary goal of the film is. Ridley said he wanted to scare us but that doesn't really feel like his primary focus.
As much as I like them I agree though that Covenant and Prometheus aren't scary. Both films have moments of tension but as you say they don't build up any sense of dread and that's key to making a film truly scary. They don't take enough time to crank up the fear of the unknown and what is to come.
In addition, in the original film the Alien looks like a psychopathic killer more than a deadly wild animal. In fact, the monster approaches in a slow and extravagant way towards the victims before killing them, even showing a disturbing behavior.
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/dd1654fb16f390b5a68f552a0366b668/tumblr_n80krkmiZ61s4nyfho3_r2_500.gif)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-Q_dGAhzCOC8%2FVHkbyC_ekhI%2FAAAAAAAAA68%2FhwobIDffIkU%2Fs1600%2Flamber.jpg&hash=764e3861c5fa9ceae0e3b2d836c72089c9283dfd)
I dunno, I see Alien as horror in its purest form same as Texas Chainsaw. Its designed to scare from start to finish. I know it has themes and subtext, much of which evolved during production but it's primary concern is to frighten the audience and nothing more.
As opposed to horror like The Exorcist or more recently the Babadook which are using horror to explore other themes.
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Jan 09, 2018, 10:15:10 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 09, 2018, 12:39:36 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jan 09, 2018, 10:16:26 AM
I reckon it is. Also that he was never much into horror to begin with, so I don't think he's kept up with the fact that modern horror audiences are eagerly consuming slower -- or at least more deliberately -- paced films.
I think, though, is that a bigger problem is he forgot the one key lesson that arguably makes any good horror film effective: keep it f**king simple. He's trying to scare audiences and pontificate on man's place in the universe and hold a discourse on artificial intelligence and it's just too much at once.
I'm not sure about that. Many of the greatest horror movies are about much more than just the scares, The Exorcist for instance. Maybe its more about the focus, what the primary goal of the film is. Ridley said he wanted to scare us but that doesn't really feel like his primary focus.
As much as I like them I agree though that Covenant and Prometheus aren't scary. Both films have moments of tension but as you say they don't build up any sense of dread and that's key to making a film truly scary. They don't take enough time to crank up the fear of the unknown and what is to come.
In addition, in the original film the Alien looks like a psychopathic killer more than a deadly wild animal. In fact, the monster approaches in a slow and extravagant way towards their victims before killing them, even showing a disturbing behavior.
https://78.media.tumblr.com/dd1654fb16f390b5a68f552a0366b668/tumblr_n80krkmiZ61s4nyfho3_r2_500.gif
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-Q_dGAhzCOC8%2FVHkbyC_ekhI%2FAAAAAAAAA68%2FhwobIDffIkU%2Fs1600%2Flamber.jpg&hash=764e3861c5fa9ceae0e3b2d836c72089c9283dfd)
There is also...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvsCCgjCEAAA--p.jpg)
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 09, 2018, 09:54:08 PM
It's kind of absurd to just reduce it down to that, though, as I pointed out.
It's not in the least. That's entirely what the film is about. That's the story it's telling. It's not about rape, or artificial intelligence, or corporate politics, or maternity, or psychosexuality -- all of this is present, but they're all in service of a story about a space alien eating space truckers.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 09, 2018, 10:19:44 PM
I dunno, I see Alien as horror in its purest form same as Texas Chainsaw. Its designed to scare from start to finish. I know it has themes and subtext, much of which evolved during production but it's primary concern is to frighten the audience and nothing more.
And that's exactly the film Scott referenced when they were making the movie. He wanted it to be
Texas Chainsaw Massacre in space. He wanted to scare the shit out of people, and he did.
These days it's clear his interest is in the philosophical areas of the last two movies and not in delivering the scares. Not a problem in itself, but counter intuitive to his claim that he wanted to scare the shit out of people with
Covenant.
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Jan 09, 2018, 10:15:10 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 09, 2018, 12:39:36 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jan 09, 2018, 10:16:26 AM
I reckon it is. Also that he was never much into horror to begin with, so I don't think he's kept up with the fact that modern horror audiences are eagerly consuming slower -- or at least more deliberately -- paced films.
I think, though, is that a bigger problem is he forgot the one key lesson that arguably makes any good horror film effective: keep it f**king simple. He's trying to scare audiences and pontificate on man's place in the universe and hold a discourse on artificial intelligence and it's just too much at once.
I'm not sure about that. Many of the greatest horror movies are about much more than just the scares, The Exorcist for instance. Maybe its more about the focus, what the primary goal of the film is. Ridley said he wanted to scare us but that doesn't really feel like his primary focus.
As much as I like them I agree though that Covenant and Prometheus aren't scary. Both films have moments of tension but as you say they don't build up any sense of dread and that's key to making a film truly scary. They don't take enough time to crank up the fear of the unknown and what is to come.
In addition, in the original film the Alien looks like a psychopathic killer more than a deadly wild animal. In fact, the monster approaches in a slow and extravagant way towards their victims before killing them, even showing a disturbing behavior.
https://78.media.tumblr.com/dd1654fb16f390b5a68f552a0366b668/tumblr_n80krkmiZ61s4nyfho3_r2_500.gif
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-Q_dGAhzCOC8%2FVHkbyC_ekhI%2FAAAAAAAAA68%2FhwobIDffIkU%2Fs1600%2Flamber.jpg&hash=764e3861c5fa9ceae0e3b2d836c72089c9283dfd)
Agreed, that behaviour was reduced in the sequels but the animal with rabies completely missed the mark in Covenant imo. The alien in Isolation was was a but too animalistic as well (the stomping the sounds), being a videogame have it's limitations and it did have some dope and some graceful animations.
Quote from: SiL on Jan 09, 2018, 10:29:01 PM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 09, 2018, 09:54:08 PM
It's kind of absurd to just reduce it down to that, though, as I pointed out.
It's not in the least. That's entirely what the film is about. That's the story it's telling. It's not about rape, or artificial intelligence, or corporate politics, or maternity, or psychosexuality -- all of this is present, but they're all in service of a story about a space alien eating space truckers.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 09, 2018, 10:19:44 PM
I dunno, I see Alien as horror in its purest form same as Texas Chainsaw. Its designed to scare from start to finish. I know it has themes and subtext, much of which evolved during production but it's primary concern is to frighten the audience and nothing more.
And that's exactly the film Scott referenced when they were making the movie. He wanted it to be Texas Chainsaw Massacre in space. He wanted to scare the shit out of people, and he did.
These days it's clear his interest is in the philosophical areas of the last two movies and not in delivering the scares. Not a problem in itself, but counter intuitive to his claim that he wanted to scare the shit out of people with Covenant.
Yep, id agree with that. The scaring the shit out of people statements were purely salesmanship and not all what he was interested in.
Quote from: SM on Jan 09, 2018, 10:27:08 PM
There is also...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvsCCgjCEAAA--p.jpg
'Jazz Hands', is that homosexual stereotype supposed to be funny?
Only gay people dance to jazz music...?
It's just a musical theatre thing - because of course all homosexuals love musical theatre which is not a stereotype at all.
Since when has that been a gay stereotype? It looks like the dance move "jazz hands"...
That's some grade-A redirection, Scorpio.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 10, 2018, 10:59:59 AM
That's some grade-A redirection, Scorpio.
Not as redirected as you might think......
"Having Jazz Hands doesn't mean you're gay, it just means you like having sex with men." ~ Oscar Wilde
"The phenomon of Jazz Hands is known around the world. However, some countries have jazzier hands than others. This trait has been linked to the overall gayness of the country. Readers should note that if they are seen using Jazz Hands for any purpose, they may be interpreted as gay."
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jazz_hands
jazz hands: A dance move, characterized by middle aged gay men yelling at you in sequence or accompanied by upbeat show music.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jazz%20hands
"Coming Out with Jazz Hands: A Gay Hippy Guide to Happiness" by Dean Francis Davis
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/coming-out-with-jazz-hands-dean-francis-davis/1103217893
The conference may have just also offended gay black men, as jazz hands were used as a signal among New Orleans LGBT community as a way of identifying themselves to one another.
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/whos-afraid-of-clapping-feminst-students-thats-who/16815#.WlX8cK6nHIU
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Jan 10, 2018, 11:12:48 AM
"Having Jazz Hands doesn't mean you're gay, it just means you like having sex with men." ~ Oscar Wilde
Well, there you go. The Alien likes to have sex with men (and women and dogs and oxen...).
It just goes to show, you learn something new every day.
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 10, 2018, 12:43:36 PM
It just goes to show, you learn something new every day.
Indeed! That said, it's still pretty obvious that was not intended as any sort of slight towards gay people.
It just looks like the Alien is doing jazz hands...which is funny...because it's an Alien...that looks like it's doing a dance move...but it isn't...because it's an Alien...and it's not the Spaceballs Alien...it's the Alien Alien.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 10, 2018, 12:49:50 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 10, 2018, 12:43:36 PM
It just goes to show, you learn something new every day.
Indeed! That said, it's still pretty obvious that was not intended as any sort of slight towards gay people.
It just looks like the Alien is doing jazz hands...which is funny...because it's an Alien...that looks like it's doing a dance move...but it isn't...because it's an Alien...and it's not the Spaceballs Alien...it's the Alien Alien.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMvF349-rOk
:D :D :D yep I get it, thanks for clarifying though.
That was directed more at Scorpio. Sorry for the lack of clarity there.
I never knew jazz hands was associated to gay symbolism until I googled those links. When SM added the comment 'jazz hands' it never occurred to me that had any association to being gay............not that there is anything wrong with that!
The Alien is obviously gay.
Cause its ugly beyond belief.
i miss Pierre a bit :laugh:
This is a slippery slope we're on.
And what happened to Pierre? Did he finally step on his dick and get wasted by Hicks?
He was shown to the airlock.
Let's move on please. :)
Quote from: SiL on Jan 09, 2018, 09:27:05 PM
Because there are layers and themes, mostly presented in the art and design of the film. We all know that.
Yet the story is still about a space monster murdering truckers. That's the core of the film, and everything is in service to that. That's what makes it simple.
Where you're getting the idea that simple means shallow, superficial, or inferior I don't know.
Yes, it is ultimately about the Xenomorph. The prequels are not, but they should be.
Quote from: reecebomb on Jan 09, 2018, 10:31:51 PM
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Jan 09, 2018, 10:15:10 PM
Quote from: Jonesy1974 on Jan 09, 2018, 12:39:36 PM
Quote from: SiL on Jan 09, 2018, 10:16:26 AM
I reckon it is. Also that he was never much into horror to begin with, so I don't think he's kept up with the fact that modern horror audiences are eagerly consuming slower -- or at least more deliberately -- paced films.
I think, though, is that a bigger problem is he forgot the one key lesson that arguably makes any good horror film effective: keep it f**king simple. He's trying to scare audiences and pontificate on man's place in the universe and hold a discourse on artificial intelligence and it's just too much at once.
I'm not sure about that. Many of the greatest horror movies are about much more than just the scares, The Exorcist for instance. Maybe its more about the focus, what the primary goal of the film is. Ridley said he wanted to scare us but that doesn't really feel like his primary focus.
As much as I like them I agree though that Covenant and Prometheus aren't scary. Both films have moments of tension but as you say they don't build up any sense of dread and that's key to making a film truly scary. They don't take enough time to crank up the fear of the unknown and what is to come.
In addition, in the original film the Alien looks like a psychopathic killer more than a deadly wild animal. In fact, the monster approaches in a slow and extravagant way towards their victims before killing them, even showing a disturbing behavior.
https://78.media.tumblr.com/dd1654fb16f390b5a68f552a0366b668/tumblr_n80krkmiZ61s4nyfho3_r2_500.gif
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-Q_dGAhzCOC8%2FVHkbyC_ekhI%2FAAAAAAAAA68%2FhwobIDffIkU%2Fs1600%2Flamber.jpg&hash=764e3861c5fa9ceae0e3b2d836c72089c9283dfd)
Agreed, that behaviour was reduced in the sequels but the animal with rabies completely missed the mark in Covenant imo. The alien in Isolation was was a but too animalistic as well (the stomping the sounds), being a videogame have it's limitations and it did have some dope and some graceful animations.
I understand that David's breed is not complete yet, but I still feel kinda disappointed for the way they handled the creature.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scified.com%2Ftopics%2F6319653552923624.gif&hash=1d46f2d3435ee235051a45809f409c649f644eaf)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m4gkel316w1qiy0obo1_r2_500.gif&hash=106c4dbdd361f414dfda672617432bd216cbba11)
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Jan 11, 2018, 12:08:12 AM
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scified.com%2Ftopics%2F6319653552923624.gif&hash=1d46f2d3435ee235051a45809f409c649f644eaf)
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4gkel316w1qiy0obo1_r2_500.gif
Heh-heh, well now in all fairness, one could reduce any movie creature to an animated mockery if one were to go that route....... ;)
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/dd1654fb16f390b5a68f552a0366b668/tumblr_n80krkmiZ61s4nyfho3_r2_500.gif)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scifimoviezone.com%2Fmjmoon.gif&hash=5b542e3a9f6ecd199ce5acbe4c7c06ad5b4500b5)
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Jan 11, 2018, 12:52:58 AM
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Jan 11, 2018, 12:08:12 AM
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scified.com%2Ftopics%2F6319653552923624.gif&hash=1d46f2d3435ee235051a45809f409c649f644eaf)
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4gkel316w1qiy0obo1_r2_500.gif
Heh-heh, well now in all fairness, one could reduce any movie creature to an animated mockery if one were to go that route....... ;)
https://78.media.tumblr.com/dd1654fb16f390b5a68f552a0366b668/tumblr_n80krkmiZ61s4nyfho3_r2_500.gif
http://www.scifimoviezone.com/mjmoon.gif
Ridley wanted to scare the shit out of people twice, but clearly there were not many merits to achieve this purpose. And the Xenomorph's return can't be more average. Maybe he should have stayed with his previous idea:
Quote"while Alien was indeed the jumping-off point for this project, out of the creative process evolved a new, grand mythology and universe in which this original story takes place. The keen fan will recognize strands of Alien's DNA, so to speak, but the ideas tackled in this film are unique, large and provocative."
Now about the gifs in my last reply, next time I will put a winking smiley to avoid any confusion: Poe's law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law) ;)
Quote from: Ingwar on Jan 07, 2018, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jan 07, 2018, 01:37:51 PM
I'm not sure why you'd refer to what Scott's doing now as "fresh, challenging and subversive" Covenant was such a painfully obvious rehash of Alien, they even rehashed the opening title and score, just for those who still couldn't take the hint. There's nothing challenging about it either. The film consists out of tons of dialogues about creation, but the creator/creation dynamic is never explored in the events that occur in film. If by 'challenging' you were referring to the effort of sitting through pretentious drivel that leads to nothing but literature trivia, then sure, what Scott is doing can be considered as challenging. The one single thing Covenant has to contribute - the sole purpose for its existence - can be summed up in four words: 'David made the Alien'. And that contribution undermines the entire franchise.
Yep.
Nope.
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Jan 11, 2018, 02:35:00 AM
Ridley wanted to scare the shit out of people twice, but clearly there were not many merits to achieve this purpose. And the Xenomorph's return can't be more average. Maybe he should have stayed with his previous idea:
Maybe. Maybe not.
One thing's for sure. The next time you watch that scene in Alien 79 when the creature starts "gliding," I would bet the farm you will not be able to keep from thinking about Michael Jackson's Moonwalk and you will be cursing under your lip, "that damn Biomechanoid, he forever ruined that scene for me."
.......oops, I almost forgot Poe's winky........ ;)
Er...how does the alien glide look like a moonwalk?
Quote from: Gash on Jan 11, 2018, 04:32:54 AM
Er...how does the alien glide look like a moonwalk?
Er...watch the animated gifs.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Jan 11, 2018, 04:36:32 AM
Quote from: Gash on Jan 11, 2018, 04:32:54 AM
Er...how does the alien glide look like a moonwalk?
Er...watch the animated gifs.
I did, that's why I'm asking.
Quote from: Gash on Jan 11, 2018, 04:41:12 AM
I did, that's why I'm asking.
More accurately, the creature gliding in that Alien 79 scene looks like forward moonwalking. If you can't see it, then your question can never be answered.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Jan 11, 2018, 04:48:11 AM
Quote from: Gash on Jan 11, 2018, 04:41:12 AM
I did, that's why I'm asking.
More accurately, the creature gliding in that Alien 79 scene looks like forward moonwalking. If you can't see it, then your question can never be answered.
Forward moonwalking is... er.. walking?
Er......I give up. Is it?
Not sure. Reverse the footage, see what happens.
Quote from: Gash on Jan 11, 2018, 05:03:47 AM
Not sure. Reverse the footage, see what happens.
Since you seem so determined to break it down, I'll pass those duties on to you. Give us an update.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Jan 11, 2018, 05:09:36 AM
Quote from: Gash on Jan 11, 2018, 05:03:47 AM
Not sure. Reverse the footage, see what happens.
Since you seem so determined to break it down, I'll pass those duties on to you. Give us an update.
Ok.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Jan 11, 2018, 12:52:58 AM
https://78.media.tumblr.com/dd1654fb16f390b5a68f552a0366b668/tumblr_n80krkmiZ61s4nyfho3_r2_500.gif
I love that shot. There's something really ethereal about how it looks and moves. Shame they can't recapture that.
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Jan 11, 2018, 12:08:12 AM
I understand that David's breed is not complete yet, but I still feel kinda disappointed for the way they handled the creature.
I understand it too, but I'm not even sure if it is actually the case or if it's something fans just came up with. The film never outright implies that "this is a beta Xeno," and I can't remember Ridley mentioning it. People still say, though, that it isn't the final version of the Alien. I mean, yes, logically it's an early version, but there's honestly nothing to say that it isn't. If you asked the average viewer what they thought, they'd just say it's a Xenomorph.
That gliding shot is one of the coolest shots of the creature in the film.
As to the Covenant variation of the design. Honestly it just looks like ADI doubled down on their previous designs. All the biomechanics are stripped out. Whether that's intentional or not, it takes away one of the interesting design aspects of the creature. Frankly, we've had enough of the pumpkin-head-o-morphs from A:R, AVP, and Requiem.
Quote from: PsyKore on Jan 11, 2018, 07:52:30 AM
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Jan 11, 2018, 12:08:12 AM
I understand that David's breed is not complete yet, but I still feel kinda disappointed for the way they handled the creature.
I understand it too, but I'm not even sure if it is actually the case or if it's something fans just came up with. The film never outright implies that "this is a beta Xeno," and I can't remember Ridley mentioning it. People still say, though, that it isn't the final version of the Alien. I mean, yes, logically it's an early version, but there's honestly nothing to say that it isn't. If you asked the average viewer what they thought, they'd just say it's a Xenomorph.
It was spoken about during the set visits and some of the post release interviews. I remember one of the producers saying that the lack of biomechanical elements in its design was because they were heading in that direction for future films.
From our interview with Adam Johnansen - http://www.avpgalaxy.net/website/interviews/adam-johansen/
QuoteAvPGalaxy – The adult Alien seems to lack the biomechanical elements of the original film's Alien. From what Chris Seagers alluded to in a previous interview, it seems like this was a deliberate choice as the later films will eventually introduce more biomechanical elements into the design?
Adam Johansen – Yes, Ridley wanted a more animalistic, primal version of the Xenomorph. Not the bio mechanical version we know from the original films.
Ah yes. Thanks for reminding me, Hicks.
Quote from: PsyKore on Jan 11, 2018, 07:52:30 AM
I love that shot. There's something really ethereal about how it looks and moves. Shame they can't recapture that.
100% agree. From the very first viewing that scene has always held my fascination. But this vein of the conversation isn't about how mesmerizing that scene is, it's about how one can reduce any movie creature to animated mockery if one wanted to go that route.
Personally I see zero effectiveness in going that route to express disdain for a given film aspect, but for some reason film visual/dialogue childish mockery is popular in these forums. Now before anyone flames me about calling it childish, even a mod here recently declared that sort of film mockery is childish and makes the person look like a fool. . . . . . So don't kill the messenger. ;D
A Biomechanoid design for the xeno next movie? A likely story. ;D
You people (Scott and colleagues) cannot fool me any longer. It's probably too expensive, landscapes are much more important, you know? ;)
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jan 11, 2018, 08:06:30 AM
As to the Covenant variation of the design. Honestly it just looks like ADI doubled down on their previous designs. All the biomechanics are stripped out. Whether that's intentional or not, it takes away one of the interesting design aspects of the creature.
Now THIS is how you give an effective criticism. At least, certainly better than stick cartoon comparisons. Thumbs up.
@Biomechanoid, you are making a straw man argument (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Straw_man), dude.
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Jan 11, 2018, 03:15:23 PM
@Biomechanoid, you are making a straw man argument (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Straw_man), dude.
If there was logical fallacy, you might have a point, but the very fact that I simply mirrored what you did, not my problem you failed to comprehend the dose of other-side-of-the-coin. . . . dude.
So......moving on, I like the criticism description by OpenMaw, pretty much nailed it.....effectively. And thanks Hicks, for providing the film makers' reason for going that direction per Scott's orders, had not seen that. I still prefer the biomechanical style, but I guess Scott wanted a more animalistic look, and that's what they designed for him. I can't fault the designers for accomplishing what they were instructed to do.
I'm staring at one of my Big Chap figures right now. I just can't understand the thinking behind sapping out the bio-mechanical aspect.
Even if you have a creative or narrative idea behind doing it. It's still basically saying "Let's take one of the most interesting aspects of the design, one of the things that makes it stand out in the crowd, and remove it."
It's one of the most interesting parts of the design. The pipes, the tubes, the repeating ribbing. One of the biggest losses in my book too are the elegant hands of the original beast. None of the Aliens have had hands quite as cool as the original. All the rest have had really ungainly hands that seem over-sized or ill-proportioned. I just love the details.
(https://www.yourprops.com/movieprops/original/4595207a8243f/Alien-Creature-Hand-1.jpg)
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Jan 11, 2018, 03:45:03 PM
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Jan 11, 2018, 03:15:23 PM
@Biomechanoid, you are making a straw man argument (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Straw_man), dude.
If there was logical fallacy, you might have a point, but the very fact that I simply mirrored what you did, not my problem you failed to comprehend the dose of other-side-of-the-coin. . . . dude.
Dude, you just mirrored a joke that I did, and since then you have been exaggerating about it. But I agree, just move on.
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Jan 11, 2018, 04:14:02 PM
Dude, you just mirrored a joke that I did.
Dude, I had all confidence you would catch on, eventually.
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Jan 11, 2018, 04:14:02 PM
But I agree, just move on.
Moving on, as I had already stated earlier and now again, works for me.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jan 11, 2018, 04:04:59 PM
Even if you have a creative or narrative idea behind doing it. It's still basically saying "Let's take one of the most interesting aspects of the design, one of the things that makes it stand out in the crowd, and remove it."
100% agree with this and the rest of your post. Some have stated Scott has been an accomplished director, but he is no storyteller.
This is not the first time he's inserted a gimmick without any rhyme or reason to an already established and professional piece of literature. i.e. Blade Runner and the Deck-a-rep gimmick, which P. K. Dick never endorsed despite die hard fans insisting Dick saw footage and approved. True he saw footage, but it was only scenes of the city, Scott never revealed to Dick he was turning Deckard into a replicant. Dick died before the film was finished.
I actually prefer the more animal look.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jan 11, 2018, 04:04:59 PM
I'm staring at one of my Big Chap figures right now. I just can't understand the thinking behind sapping out the bio-mechanical aspect.
Even if you have a creative or narrative idea behind doing it. It's still basically saying "Let's take one of the most interesting aspects of the design, one of the things that makes it stand out in the crowd, and remove it."
It's one of the most interesting parts of the design. The pipes, the tubes, the repeating ribbing. One of the biggest losses in my book too are the elegant hands of the original beast. None of the Aliens have had hands quite as cool as the original. All the rest have had really ungainly hands that seem over-sized or ill-proportioned. I just love the details.
https://www.yourprops.com/movieprops/original/4595207a8243f/Alien-Creature-Hand-1.jpg
I feel in a similar way when I see the legs and the foots of the original monster. Even if the creature couldn't be able to move quickly and easily with the original design, those legs are elegant in comparison.
(https://i.imgur.com/kjE8iaJ.jpg)
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jan 11, 2018, 08:21:07 AM
From our interview with Adam Johnansen - http://www.avpgalaxy.net/website/interviews/adam-johansen/
QuoteAvPGalaxy – The adult Alien seems to lack the biomechanical elements of the original film's Alien. From what Chris Seagers alluded to in a previous interview, it seems like this was a deliberate choice as the later films will eventually introduce more biomechanical elements into the design?
Adam Johansen – Yes, Ridley wanted a more animalistic, primal version of the Xenomorph. Not the bio mechanical version we know from the original films.
Thank you for finding that. However, it's hard to know here what he's saying 'yes' to. I think there's a world of difference between careful and consistent production design and making the Alien a 'flayed man' on a whim because the director thinks it fits the tone of the movie better. I'd lay money on it being Ridley's personal preference only. I very much doubt that they'd bother to follow through on having David upgrade his version with the full biomech treatment. Those of us who would notice or care are a subset of a subset (passionate fans). Realistically, this is like the constant changes to the Klingons in Star Trek; for all intents and purposes the same character, but radically different in the reimagining.
There was a similar conceit for the damp fleshy Pumpkinhead A:R design of course; human DNA. But in reality it was just ADI & co changing things up based upon personal preference. Same deal here. Except the Covenant interpretation is fantastic IMO. If you're going to change stuff for the sake of it, they did a hell of a job here of making the creature a proper gothic monster, and despite what I just said, an awesome organic forerunner design if anyone does care enough to follow through and biomech it up (grafting on the Engineer suit technology is the obvious way, as others have remarked). I just wish they'd kept the shoulder tubes.
Anyway, it's academic if we never get the third Ridley movie.
Here's the original quote from the production designer -
QuoteThe aesthetic choices aren't just superficial, they tie into the larger story. "Technically, we're slightly earlier than the Giger stuff, a little bit," Seagers explained. "We're sort of edging into that. That's part of that whole storyline."
http://collider.com/alien-covenant-spoilers-things-to-know/#effects
Ah yes, sorry, I'd forgotten about that. I have to take him at his word, but I don't have much faith that everyone involved shares Mr Seagers's logic or would stick to it in any sequel that happens. The Prometheus juggernaut was also de-biomechanised in production, and that had nowt to do with some plan to later recreate it more faithfully.
Still, it does follow; either an imperfect recreation by David, or his first original effort that he perfects in the finale.
With the way Disney screwed up the Star Wars franchise, I'm doubtful they will do the right thing by the Alien & Predator franchises. Only time will tell.
$4.2b over three films and overwhelmingly positive reviews = screwed up?
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2018, 02:10:22 AM
$4.2b over three films and overwhelmingly positive reviews = screwed up?
I dunno man. I'm super interested to see the numbers on the next one. They will naturally be lower, but it does feel like a blow to the universe, there was never this much hate even on the prequels. If Alien didn't turn out the way fans thought it might, Star Wars just said hold my beer.
I haven't seen the new one yet, but The Force Awakens was pretty cool.
Quote from: Highland on Jan 14, 2018, 02:25:59 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2018, 02:10:22 AM
$4.2b over three films and overwhelmingly positive reviews = screwed up?
I dunno man. I'm super interested to see the numbers on the next one. They will naturally be lower, but it does feel like a blow to the universe, there was never this much hate even on the prequels. If Alien didn't turn out the way fans thought it might, Star Wars just said hold my beer.
Never this much hate? People are still whining about Jar-Jar and midiclorians nearly 20 years on.
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2018, 07:55:48 AM
Quote from: Highland on Jan 14, 2018, 02:25:59 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 14, 2018, 02:10:22 AM
$4.2b over three films and overwhelmingly positive reviews = screwed up?
I dunno man. I'm super interested to see the numbers on the next one. They will naturally be lower, but it does feel like a blow to the universe, there was never this much hate even on the prequels. If Alien didn't turn out the way fans thought it might, Star Wars just said hold my beer.
Never this much hate? People are still whining about Jar-Jar and midiclorians nearly 20 years on.
Jar Jar was annoying and I wasn't a massive fan of the prequels. I don't think I ever said to myself though " I'm not wasting my time on the next one".
I feel like this is the same problem the Alien universe has suffered only bigger. They write these things like they are part of a story, but there's no story, the next movie has to pick dependant on what the director or the studio calls for.
Star Wars is a bit more confusing though since it suffers no budget or age restraints like Alien.
Predator is 100% going to do the same thing. It's practically locked in. There will be Predator language translated by a kid and it'll be a one liner.
QuoteI haven't seen the new one yet, but The Force Awakens was pretty cool.
Unfortunately there's not much similarity. TLJ could quite easily be a stand alone movie that happened to have the same characters in it. You might like it, but it's a very different movie from FA. In some way's it actually makes more sense to start the trilogy at TLJ.
"I'm hoping I'll still probably be there so whether or not they go ahead with such a dark subject, being Disney, as aliens remains to be seen. I think they should because I think, when people have a hard and fast franchise which has ongoing interest, it's crazy not to do something with it."
Does it surprise me that Ridley believes the dark subject matter would be the reason they wouldn't go ahead with the next one?! No! He can't seem to look inward and hold himself accountable for under performing returns. When better fan edits of his own films are made using the scenes he cut, it doesn't inspire confidence in his decision making!
The fan edits don't have to keep the film under 2 hours.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Gotta make that film only two hours long, so let's cut all the character development scenes out to make room for this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYGSYq6QgxE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYGSYq6QgxE)
I would call that character denouement.
summed up in four words: 'David made the Alien'. And that contribution undermines the entire franchise.
hang on a moment ....... what ?
all we have seen is David bring to life an old science project that was obviously already perfected a long long time ago
at least 10,000 years according to the movie prometheus .
has David really created anything ???
Quote from: prometheusfire29 on Jan 15, 2018, 02:20:29 AM
summed up in four words: 'David made the Alien'. And that contribution undermines the entire franchise.
hang on a moment ....... what ?
all we have seen is David bring to life an old science project that was obviously already perfected a long long time ago
at least 10,000 years according to the movie prometheus .
has David really created anything ???
Of course he did because Scott is so in love with David that I'd be surprised if he isn't retroactively responsible for the birth of the f**king universe
Quote from: prometheusfire29 on Jan 15, 2018, 02:20:29 AM
summed up in four words: 'David made the Alien'. And that contribution undermines the entire franchise.
hang on a moment ....... what ?
all we have seen is David bring to life an old science project that was obviously already perfected a long long time ago
at least 10,000 years according to the movie prometheus .
has David really created anything ???
What "10,000 years according to Prometheus"?
Obviously, prequels should not feature much of what appears in movies that follow, which means they might not be made in terms of horror or action.
Quote from: prometheusfire29 on Jan 15, 2018, 02:20:29 AMhas David really created anything??
He created the alien. Not sure what movie you were watching.
He made a nice song for Elizabeth too.
Draws quite a bit.
Definitely has a penchant for art.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic0.srcdn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F03%2FAlien-Covenant-Skinned-Engineer--200x100.jpg%3Flossless%3D1%26amp%3Bq%3D40%26amp%3Bw%3D200%26amp%3Bh%3D100%26amp%3Bfit%3Dcrop&hash=76e27a28df80b51d70fe0f9b890974faf3d22124)
erm...... the engineers created the Alien.
a movie I watched called prometheus shows a crew of explorers going to a far away star system where they come upon a structure ( at least 2000 years old ) that features paintings and sculptures of the Alien.........
not really much you can argue with that .
unless you think David is a time traveler 😂😂😂
Except if you want argue that it's a Deacon.
Tomato tomatoe 😉
What about facehuggers on the mural?
Of course it's a Deacon.
I don't know why everyone want to see a Xeno... It's a Deacon, the production wanted to put a Deacon, the Engineers created it. And now you will say that in Prometheus it was random circumstances, but no. Human genome and Engineers genome is the same, so same result. Moreover, the effects of the black goo show that every administration create a creature which have similar characteristics : acid for blood, elongated head, no eyes for example. David has just advanced the Deacon to create the Xenomorph. I don't know why everybody always want to find something to contradict that, maybe it's a problem because you don't like that but David create the Xenomorph, that's it...
well I guess if we are to believe Davids claim to fame we should also follow him with who wrote his fave quote...........
I'm fine with David creating the xenomorph. The Engineers created the black goo that created the xenomorph. The Engineers also created an early ancestor of the xenomorph. That's enough to say it wasn't wholly created by David. So it's the best of both worlds. You get a personal story of creation by an insane android and a wider story of an ancient race creating a perfect weapon. So the xenomorph has personal and foreign origins, which makes it more compelling from a narrative standpoint than if it were either one or the other.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 24, 2018, 12:55:20 AM
I'm fine with David creating the xenomorph. The Engineers created the black goo that created the xenomorph. The Engineers also created an early ancestor of the xenomorph. That's enough to say it wasn't wholly created by David. So it's the best of both worlds. You get a personal story of creation by an insane android and a wider story of an ancient race creating a perfect weapon. So the xenomorph has personal and foreign origins, which makes it more compelling from a narrative standpoint than if it were either one or the other.
Yeah, that.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 24, 2018, 12:55:20 AMSo the xenomorph has personal and foreign origins, which makes it more compelling from a narrative standpoint than if it were either one or the other.
I would argue that from a narrative standpoint giving the alien 'personal' origins is anathema to what was great about the original film.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jan 24, 2018, 10:38:09 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 24, 2018, 12:55:20 AMSo the xenomorph has personal and foreign origins, which makes it more compelling from a narrative standpoint than if it were either one or the other.
I would argue that from a narrative standpoint giving the alien 'personal' origins is anathema to what was great about the original film.
It doesn't have personal origins though. It has so many origins it is intentionally difficult to place any one point of central divergence. Will we ever know just how many times it has been wiped out and brought back from extinction by AI or others who become so enraptured with it as though it were some long-lost lover or relative? And even then, there are still many unanswered questions and mysteries left open before the prequel series is concluded (if it ever is), but I don't think they should be answered. The connection between the bio-mechanical appearance of the Xenomorph and the Engineer biotechnology, the organism on the Derelict, the eggs on the Derelict, ANYTHING about LV-426 in relation to the prequels, among other things, such as how David knew they required a Queen as a physical manifestation of a pre-existing hive-mind... guys, the Xenomorph is more than just a physical creature, it's more like a
force. That is basically what I'm getting from all of this. The Engineers, even if they didn't make it, they SAW it somewhere before. There is an entirely "other" layer and component of this equation. The Xenomorph when looked at as more of an essence than merely a physical being makes more sense. What would a perfect organism be? Well, an organism that comes from somewhere inorganic, obviously, or beyond mere organics. There is no such thing as a perfect organism - ergo, its origins are far more complicated than the physical creation aspect of the beast,
because the physical creation is just the tip of the iceberg...
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jan 24, 2018, 10:38:09 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 24, 2018, 12:55:20 AMSo the xenomorph has personal and foreign origins, which makes it more compelling from a narrative standpoint than if it were either one or the other.
I would argue that from a narrative standpoint giving the alien 'personal' origins is anathema to what was great about the original film.
It's funny you say that because in the original film, the "alien" uses a human host to procreate.
Fire has always existed but it wasn't until mankind discovered it could be created and bent to our will that we become powerful.
David's fire is the black goo and he has bent it to his will. So the goo and xenomorph dna existed before David but it is what you do with that fire that makes one a creator. Considering the aliens in Covenant look and act differently from Big Chap, there's still work to do and it's what David does next that becomes The Modern Alien.
Exactly. I see it kind of like the science fiction equivalent of summoning a demon (what David did, and perhaps the Engineers or others before him)...
...or a golem if you're that guy.
QuoteFire has always existed but it wasn't until mankind discovered it could be created and bent to our will that we become powerful.
When Prometheus gave it to us, you mean.
Quote from: SM on Jan 24, 2018, 11:01:41 PM
QuoteFire has always existed but it wasn't until mankind discovered it could be created and bent to our will that we become powerful.
When Prometheus gave it to us, you mean.
touché
Quote from: D. Compton Ambrose on Jan 24, 2018, 10:58:39 PM
Exactly. I see it kind of like the science fiction equivalent of summoning a demon (what David did, and perhaps the Engineers or others before him)...
...or a golem if you're that guy.
Or
that goy...
I think a lot of fans wanted something like Pandora in Avatar, except 'Gigeresque'. The home planet of the xenomorphs. Some Giger nightmare world that originated the creatures as a product of evolution, and the Space Jockeys/Engineers found them and tried to control them like Weyland Yutani.
That seems to be the predominate fan theory/fan fiction before Prometheus.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jan 25, 2018, 03:52:17 AM
I think a lot of fans wanted something like Pandora in Avatar, except 'Gigeresque'. The home planet of the xenomorphs. Some Giger nightmare world that originated the creatures as a product of evolution, and the Space Jockeys/Engineers found them and tried to control them like Weyland Yutani.
That seems to be the predominate fan theory/fan fiction before Prometheus.
Yes!! Gigerworld! Please!
Escape from the Planet of the Schlongs.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jan 25, 2018, 02:23:30 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 24, 2018, 11:01:41 PM
QuoteFire has always existed but it wasn't until mankind discovered it could be created and bent to our will that we become powerful.
When Prometheus gave it to us, you mean.
touché
Man what the hell. I'm supposed to get to say touché. Talk about stealing my fire.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jan 25, 2018, 09:20:57 AM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jan 25, 2018, 02:23:30 AM
Quote from: SM on Jan 24, 2018, 11:01:41 PM
QuoteFire has always existed but it wasn't until mankind discovered it could be created and bent to our will that we become powerful.
When Prometheus gave it to us, you mean.
touché
Man what the hell. I'm supposed to get to say touché. Talk about stealing my fire.
I knew what you meant, semantics aside... ;)
Quote from: SM on Jan 25, 2018, 05:23:25 AM
Escape from the Planet of the Schlongs.
They should call it Venis Pagina.
Could still make that movie: 'ALIEN PRIME'
I wouldn't mind a 95 minute chick flick staring Shaw and David.
They already are chick flicks in a way.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jan 25, 2018, 02:37:41 PM
Could still make that movie: 'ALIEN PRIME'
We should call it
Wormwood ;)
On the Russian news site there was a new interview with Scott.
https://lenta.ru/articles/2018/02/22/ridleyscott/?utm_source=lentatw&utm_medium=social
How do you like "Blade Runner 2049"?
Well, I'm the producer there, so I liked it by definition. Would I like to shoot the sequel myself? No no no. I kind of intended to shoot it myself at some point, but the next phase of "Alien" is more interesting to me as a director. I cooled down to the Runner and gave it to Denis [Villeneuve], who, in my opinion, did an excellent job.
Make the next "Alien", okay?
Yes, I will, I will do it!
Quote from: GHJ on Feb 22, 2018, 09:01:21 PMMake the next "Alien", okay?
Yes, I will, I will do it!
I love this ;D
Thanks for sharing.
It's just a question of if Fox will let him.
Thank you for sharing, GHJ! :)
They've put themselves in a pickle with these prequels, but if they find the right screenwriters and allow them to be logical in their creativity, they might be able to do a final lead up film to the original that fixes some of the sins of Prometheus and A:C--but I'm not holding my breath.
Who directed Bladerunner 2049?
Him. Get him to do it.
I dont trust scott to expand the Alien universe anymore nor cameron.
There is a simple formulaic pattern to how they make movies.
Scott has all the weight you could ask for to get done what he wants to get done while working with fox. So I put the blame on his shoulders. If it was in the movie its because he didnt question it. Or worse thought it was good idea.
The lame fight scene between david and walter. The horrible set up for the knife. The spores. The hammy way David cues the music.
Hardly anything is done well these days. The third act almost always disappoints. Im tired of hoping there will be a fan edit of films that shouldnt need one. Injecting comedy where there shouldnt be. And half assing provocative concepts.
Denise Villeneuve. He's busy with Dune.
I doubt someone like Villeneuve would touch Alien. Not now, seems terrible timing all round for anyone other than Scott.
Quote from: GHJ on Feb 22, 2018, 09:01:21 PM
Make the next "Alien", okay?
Yes, I will, I will do it!
This little spark of hope brightened my day.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Feb 23, 2018, 08:20:53 AM
It's just a question of if Fox will let him.
Thank you for sharing, GHJ! :)
Isn't there a way we can start some kind of fan (spam) campaign for the movie?
Bunch of old-fashioned letters to Fox or something.
Ugh. No more. After that chestburster... no... please for the love of God NO!
More films please.
I need to see the final prequel. It's vital.
A Sci-Fi thriller with a female lead just landed at the box office in North America - Annihilation. A fair comparison to the "Alien" series considering the genre, themes, and tone.
Annihilation opened with $11 million in North America. It seems to be a financial disappointment. We will see how it fares over the weeks and internationally - but on a reported production budget of $40 million, it will have difficulty making a profit.
Considering this, we should really re-examine Alien: Covenant's Box Office and perhaps, the studio heads will take a sharper look. Covenant has outperformed films with similar genres/tones (Annihilation isn't the only example - look at 2017's Life). So, the "Alien" name obviously still means something. It just doesn't resonate today as much as Superhero movies or Star Wars films.
The key will be a lower budgeted film. If Alien: Covenant was crafted with a $40 million production budget, that North American opening weekend of about $36 million looks a lot better.
So, I think Scott can definitely make another movie and it can be financially successful. The trick will be the budget. It depends on the money people, but the "Alien" series can definitely still have some bite - especially if you look at the Sci-Fi/Thriller/Horror mash-ups of late.
Quote from: Prof. a on Feb 26, 2018, 10:44:37 PM
A Sci-Fi thriller with a female lead just landed at the box office in North America - Annihilation. A fair comparison to the "Alien" series considering the genre, themes, and tone.
Annihilation opened with $11 million in North America. It seems to be a financial disappointment. We will see how it fares over the weeks and internationally - but on a reported production budget of $40 million, it will have difficulty making a profit.
Considering this, we should really re-examine Alien: Covenant's Box Office and perhaps, the studio heads will take a sharper look. Covenant has outperformed films with similar genres/tones (Annihilation isn't the only example - look at 2017's Life). So, the "Alien" name obviously still means something. It just doesn't resonate today as much as Superhero movies or Star Wars films.
The key will be a lower budgeted film. If Alien: Covenant was crafted with a $40 million production budget, that North American opening weekend of about $36 million looks a lot better.
So, I think Scott can definitely make another movie and it can be financially successful. The trick will be the budget. It depends on the money people, but the "Alien" series can definitely still have some bite - especially if you look at the Sci-Fi/Thriller/Horror mash-ups of late.
Annihilation was absolutely fantastic
I would say the days of Ridley Scott making low budget genre movies had passed - if they had in fact ever existed in the first place.
Quote from: SM on Feb 27, 2018, 03:05:38 AM
I would say the days of Ridley Scott making low budget genre movies had passed - if they had in fact ever existed in the first place.
Well, it's been a contradictingly fun and infuriating ride if nothing else. I still have no idea how to feel about any of it, it's great
Annihilation is a terrible example. It's only being released theatrically in the US. It's straight to Netflix for everyone else - and that's because of in fighting behind the scenes over how 'cerebral' the film is.
Annihilation is an original idea that was made with the thought of it being a risk and possibly not finding an audience. Alien:Covenant is the 6th film in a well established and profitable franchise, and was made due to this very reason. Covenant comes with a built-in fan base that will throw money at it just for existing; Annihilation has no fan base to support it. The financial comparison has issues even after putting aside the international straight-to-Netflix angle.
Uh, Annihilation is an adaptation of a novel ???
Unless those in power have other designs I'm unaware of, the Netflix momentum is here to stay, changing the footprint of feature film. So we can accept it or be left behind. I believe regional selection - box office in one region, Netflix in another, will become more frequent. It's a new and good business avenue for studios to finance projects.
Making the decision where a film is released in a corporate conference room containing audience research is unlikely to be trumped by predictions from movie fans in movie forums. I seriously doubt the studio decided to release Annihilation on Netflix outside the US just on a random whim. There's has to be some professional study behind it. I'm not suggesting Americans are more appreciative of intelligent thought provoking sci-fi than the rest of the world, but something of some type of research lead those studio execs to believe US audience were more likely to attend box office than Europe or the rest of the world for this film.
One producer said the film was too cerebral, the other who had control of final cut told him to go f**k himself, management changed at Paramount and they didn't have faith so they passed the international release to Netflix.
Quote from: GHJ on Feb 22, 2018, 09:01:21 PMMake the next "Alien", okay?
Yes, I will, I will do it!
(https://cdn.empireonline.com/jpg/70/0/0/640/480/aspectfit/0/0/0/0/0/0/c/articles/5a719eda9d09dc3e06a0c8d8/ridley-scott.jpg)
God bless him.
Or have Alex Garland direct the final Alien prequel trilogy film with Scott as a producer. The man is certainly a talented screenwriter, understands emotionally resonant sci-fi and made a wonderfully weird little movie out of Annihilation. I think he poops the bed a little on the endings of his movies (akin to Villeneuve sometimes) but I'd like to see what he could do with Gigerscapes, whilst expanding the themes layed out by Prometheus and Covenant.
Hell, I wouldn't even mind him doing a straight to Netflix film of the 10 year gap between Prometheus and Covenant. A budget similar to Annihilation is more than enough for that.
The kind of Alien movie that we have been accustomed to and expect can't be done for $40 million.
Garland has directed two sci-fi movies (three if you also count Dredd), which have been box office disappointments. There's no chance in hell a studio would give him a sci-fi franchise with that track record.
Why would you count a movie he didn't direct? ???
Why couldn't it be made for 40million? Annihilation has enough creature moments, interesting sets, some okish CGI (not worse than what you see in Covenant) and most importantly: ideas, character development and just enough speculation to allow people to talk about the movie after it wraps up; which isn't too different from what Alien did back in 1979.
I think at this point it's inevitable that the next Alien movie will shrink a bit in ambition anyways, which is a shame because if Prometheus and Covenant were just a notch above being just ok films, we could actually have more gritty expensive looking sci-fi films, since both turned a comfy profit, despite the bastardization the Alien franchise endured since Alien3. Now it's extremely risky to do so, since Alien was one of the few horror franchises that always turned a profit with such expensive production costs and it almost failed to do so with Covenant.
People were excited when Prometheus was about to be released and it showed with a nice return but that dreadful pacing and inexplicably terrible scenes that were left in didn't help on regaining people's trust in the franchise. There's nothing that I want more for the Alien franchise to be huge, creepy and ambitous but we have to be objective of what's to come, unfortunately.
Quote from: MU-TH-UR 6000 on Feb 27, 2018, 11:55:25 AM
Hell, I wouldn't even mind him doing a straight to Netflix film of the 10 year gap between Prometheus and Covenant. A budget similar to Annihilation is more than enough for that.
That's my hope that Disney sells the franchise to Netflix and they truly open the universe. Starting with 'Paradise Lost' that covers the ten years between Prometheus and Covenant, since many including myself were pissed off on how Shaw's story line was short-circuited to her being a dissected corpse.
A few months back I talked about how this film would go...Have Shaw wake up to discover Planet 4 already wiped out, and David tells her that it was like that. Shaw goes and explores the planet and discovers a few Engineer survivors who fear her at first, though over time befriend each other. The engineers through holograms show what David did, and they hatch a plan to destroy him and escape Planet 4 however, David gets the upper hand with setting up pores and having some of the engineers become neo-morphs and from there it leads to what we see in Covenant. It could be done with a small budget like Annihilation. We only need someone willing to pitch this idea to the right people, and get it done. After that, they could go with Awakening.
Yeah they can do all sorts of interesting things with the Paradise/Garden of Eden idea. Imagine all the "toys" David created to impress her! So many poisoned fruits! And I think it's the perfect platform to explore David's repressed sexuality. His inability to generate life with his boo is very interesting territory for creepy horror. He hates humans but he desperately wants to become one, so let's create all these phallic abominations instead to prove he's the superior being.
Quote from: David_4004 on Feb 27, 2018, 08:43:45 AM
Quote from: GHJ on Feb 22, 2018, 09:01:21 PMMake the next "Alien", okay?
Yes, I will, I will do it!
(https://cdn.empireonline.com/jpg/70/0/0/640/480/aspectfit/0/0/0/0/0/0/c/articles/5a719eda9d09dc3e06a0c8d8/ridley-scott.jpg)
God bless him.
That's amazing. :D
Quote from: MU-TH-UR 6000 on Feb 27, 2018, 01:23:46 PM
Why couldn't it be made for 40million? Annihilation has enough creature moments, interesting sets, some okish CGI (not worse than what you see in Covenant) and most importantly: ideas, character development and just enough speculation to allow people to talk about the movie after it wraps up; which isn't too different from what Alien did back in 1979.
I think at this point it's inevitable that the next Alien movie will shrink a bit in ambition anyways, which is a shame because if Prometheus and Covenant were just a notch above being just ok films, we could actually have more gritty expensive looking sci-fi films, since both turned a comfy profit, despite the bastardization the Alien franchise endured since Alien3. Now it's extremely risky to do so, since Alien was one of the few horror franchises that always turned a profit with such expensive production costs and it almost failed to do so with Covenant.
People were excited when Prometheus was about to be released and it showed with a nice return but that dreadful pacing and inexplicably terrible scenes that were left in didn't help on regaining people's trust in the franchise. There's nothing that I want more for the Alien franchise to be huge, creepy and ambitous but we have to be objective of what's to come, unfortunately.
I really can't see the next one being made with a 40 million budget. Ridley will probably direct it again, and he'll definitely want a higher budget to work with. Especially if it's the last film. But we'll see. Personally I just want him to do the last one and finish the story.
Quote from: Prof. a on Feb 26, 2018, 10:44:37 PM
The key will be a lower budgeted film. If Alien: Covenant was crafted with a $40 million production budget, that North American opening weekend of about $36 million looks a lot better.
The marketing budget is tied to the production budget. A $40 million dollar Alien film wouldn't have had the same advertising budget that Covenant had and so wouldn't have made $36 million on it's opening weekend. More likely something in the region of $10 - 15 million or so.
But a lower budget Alien film would certainly be less of a risk to the studio. And with R-rated films your audience is limited so mid-budget films often perform the best.
Quote from: MU-TH-UR 6000 on Feb 27, 2018, 04:17:33 PM
Yeah they can do all sorts of interesting things with the Paradise/Garden of Eden idea. Imagine all the "toys" David created to impress her! So many poisoned fruits! And I think it's the perfect platform to explore David's repressed sexuality. His inability to generate life with his boo is very interesting territory for creepy horror. He hates humans but he desperately wants to become one, so let's create all these phallic abominations instead to prove he's the superior being.
I think, obviously, Daniels can not be a queen lays eggs, not like in Aliens. Perhaps Ridley Scott will modified her to do so, which would impact, out of the canon. David can also use her genetics and maybe the aliens would respect her as a mother. In any case, David goes to Origae-6 without the black goo, so I do not know how he can continue experimenting with Daniels.
David can surely clone the eggs, so I guess he can prepare them to impregnate an alien queen in Daniels, so she has no future in Awakening. We have already seen two reboots of the movie Alien. More than pretending to do prequels, Scott has tried to reinvent Alien with Prometheus and the idea did not convince, so Covenant takes a similar start with other characters and leaves Shaw aside.
I am convinced that there will be a third similar attempt, keeping David in the film but with new protagonists, probably in the Garden of Eden idea. But, like Covenant, this third opportunity will also work on its own, and this is probably the last chance for Scott to reinvent the franchise.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 27, 2018, 05:04:18 AM
Uh, Annihilation is an adaptation of a novel ???
Really? Did not know that. Disregard what I said, then.
Three part series of novels, even :P
Dumping to Netflix is a worrying trend. I would of loved to of had the opportunity to see The Ritual or (especially) Okja in a cinema. That said, getting films like The Wailing pop up in your recommended list is pretty awesome.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Feb 28, 2018, 10:14:04 AM
Dumping to Netflix is a worrying trend. I would of loved to of had the opportunity to see The Ritual or (especially) Okja in a cinema. That said, getting films like The Wailing pop up in your recommended list is pretty awesome.
The Ritual was on in the cinema. well in the UK at least anyway.
Plenty of Netflix movies had limited releases in certain countries. I saw Mudbound on Netflix (great movie) and it came out over here a couple of months later. Was a bit bummed by this, cause I would've really liked to see it on a big screen but hey, the movie reaches more people and it's certainly more affordable this way. Movie tickets are becoming crazy expensive and I honestly think streaming services are a very interesting backdoor for niche movie styles, where the creative team behind them doesn't have to compromise so much with the studio. I don't really see movies going straight to streaming platforms as a bad thing, even if the overal quality so far is a bit average (on Netflix at least, I think Amazon has a better roster). It's a "movement" that's basically starting now, let's not think of it as a straight-to-video kinda deal yet.
Quote from: MU-TH-UR 6000 on Feb 28, 2018, 12:59:03 PM
Plenty of Netflix movies had limited releases in certain countries. I saw Mudbound on Netflix (great movie) and it came out over here a couple of months later. Was a bit bummed by this, cause I would've really liked to see it on a big screen but hey, the movie reaches more people and it's certainly more affordable this way. Movie tickets are becoming crazy expensive and I honestly think streaming services are a very interesting backdoor for niche movie styles, where the creative team behind them doesn't have to compromise so much with the studio. I don't really see movies going straight to streaming platforms as a bad thing, even if the overal quality so far is a bit average (on Netflix at least, I think Amazon has a better roster). It's a "movement" that's basically starting now, let's not think of it as a straight-to-video kinda deal yet.
Yeah and maybe the filmmakers can have more creative control with their films and develop mind blowing stories like the Annihilation's book-to-film adaptation.
Hopefully, someone will be able to make something like that with the Alien setting in future releases.
Quote from: NetworkATTHAnnihilation was absolutely fantastic
Agreed! but, intelligent sci-fi doesnt go far in the marketplace anymore unfortunately! the world is so oversaturated with mindless comic book films (dont get me wrong i like comic book movies, but they dont require a ton of thought to process) and blockbusters filled with explosions, sex and violence that when it comes down to it anymore... intelligent sci-fi is NOT something that appeals to many simply because it hurts to think for most folks.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Feb 28, 2018, 10:14:04 AM
Dumping to Netflix is a worrying trend. I would of loved to of had the opportunity to see The Ritual or (especially) Okja in a cinema.
I love the direct to Netflix trend. I love my home theater set up, took me awhile to get it the way I like it, but it beats any multiplex theater.
Like so many, I'm disgusted with theaters doing absolutely nothing about the infest of ipads at theaters. Bright lights lit up in front of you is very distracting. The only ones who are not annoyed by it, are the assholes that are pulling out their ipads. "Dear Facebook friends, I'm at the theater, I'm about to watch a movie, I'm annoying all the people behind me with my bright light, but that don't matter because I'm the center of the universe."
Dumping to Netflix is hardly a movement. Cloverfield Paradox and Annihilation(internationally) were both Paramount films from management that is different from the current one. They were mid-budgeted affair that the studio deduced wouldn't have made their money back. Bumblebee and MI6 will be the breadwinners for that studio this year.
It's not going to become the norm now or anytime soon.
Sometimes ambitious sci-fi just doesn't connect. But sometimes it does, e.g. Arrival. Denis is making Dune next. Let's see.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Mar 01, 2018, 12:11:48 AM
Dumping to Netflix is hardly a movement. Cloverfield Paradox and Annihilation(internationally) were both Paramount films from management that is different from the current one.
There are more examples than just the two you mention. Netflix acquired Bright from Clubhouse and Overbrook studios for 90 million. Beasts of No Nation acquired from...I forget who. And the upcoming films Netflix has bought rights for regional viewing - Extinction, New Line's Shaft, and Birdbox, the latter two still in production or pre-production. Martin Scorsese's next mobster film, The Irishman, will hit Netflix in 2019.
And don't forget, Brad Pitt's War Machine, Okja and The Meyerowitz Stories, the latter two films competing at the Cannes Film Festival. Not to mention feature film projects that sit in limbo because studios don't want to risk it, directors find a new opportunity with Netflix, such as Duncan Jone's Mute.
As for their massive budget, Netflix spent 6 billion dollars in 2017 to offer original content, and expected to spend 7-8 billion in 2018, including 80 feature films. That's more feature films than most of the major studios combined. Some of that budget will likely go after other studios' box office projects as the examples above indicate.
And it's not just Netflix. Vudu has a section you can rent/buy films that are currently playing at theaters now. You can ignore there is a trend, but that won't stop the trend.
Another note to add, all nine Oscar Best Picture nominees are available for me to watch on VUDU before the Oscars commence. Years ago, this would have been impossible without going to the theater to catch at least some of them. The wait window keeps shrinking.
I recently bought Thor Ragnarok, but haven't watched it yet, because I'm still catching up with films released just before it. By the time I finally finish with my current queue, films you paid to see at the theater now, many will be available for me to rent/purchase, by then.
Quote from: BishopShouldGo on Mar 01, 2018, 12:11:48 AM
It's not going to become the norm now or anytime soon.
All my comment above, seems to indicate otherwise.
Quote from: SiL on Feb 27, 2018, 12:53:21 PM
Why would you count a movie he didn't direct? ???
He unofficially co-directed it.
Quote from: DorkiDori on Feb 28, 2018, 10:57:24 PM
Quote from: NetworkATTHAnnihilation was absolutely fantastic
the world is so oversaturated with mindless comic book films (dont get me wrong i like comic book movies, but they dont require a ton of thought to process) and blockbusters filled with explosions, sex and violence that when it comes down to it anymore..
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice wants to have a word with you.
...to prove him right? ???
Quote from: David_4004 on Mar 04, 2018, 06:19:32 AM
Quote from: DorkiDori on Feb 28, 2018, 10:57:24 PM
Quote from: NetworkATTHAnnihilation was absolutely fantastic
the world is so oversaturated with mindless comic book films (dont get me wrong i like comic book movies, but they dont require a ton of thought to process) and blockbusters filled with explosions, sex and violence that when it comes down to it anymore..
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice wants to have a word with you.
BvS the complete cut, while far from a perfect movie, is way better than any mcu movie, which most of them are totally brainless and with a ridiculous and artificial sense of humour. BvS is a complex, layered film who went over the head of most people who saw it, as if often the case with Snyder movies. Still, people compare every superhero movie to the mcu as if was the golden standard, when that is far from the truth but it dooms the movies to fail before even being released.
A better example, though, would be Blade Runner 2049. It bombed at the box office, but the movie is one of the better works of art to come out of hollywood in a really long time, and almost perfect movie.
General audiences want "light and fun" colorful, escapist spectacle, they want fireworks, they want just to be entertainned, they do not want art.
Quote from: Biomechanoid on Mar 01, 2018, 01:23:12 AM
I recently bought Thor Ragnarok
By far the worst mcu movie, and 2017 saw three awful mcu movies. I could write you a long list of the huge flaws of the film, and how stupid and vain it is (the director seems to think he is a comedy genius or something) but you will notice it when you see it. In the purely technical aspects, it is well done, but the script is really REALLY bad.
Thor Ragnarok was great. As was What We Do In The Shadows, Hunt For The Wilderpeople, Flight of the Conchords, etc. etc.
Yeah i really enjoyed thor ragnarok.
Personally I avoid cape-shit.
Quote from: SM on Feb 27, 2018, 03:05:38 AM
I would say the days of Ridley Scott making low budget genre movies had passed - if they had in fact ever existed in the first place.
It depends what you consider "low budget" but crime film
The Counselor (2013) had a 25 million dollar budget. So, your statement doesn't hold completely true.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Feb 27, 2018, 04:51:18 PM
Quote from: Prof. a on Feb 26, 2018, 10:44:37 PM
The key will be a lower budgeted film. If Alien: Covenant was crafted with a $40 million production budget, that North American opening weekend of about $36 million looks a lot better.
The marketing budget is tied to the production budget. A $40 million dollar Alien film wouldn't have had the same advertising budget that Covenant had and so wouldn't have made $36 million on it's opening weekend. More likely something in the region of $10 - 15 million or so.
But a lower budget Alien film would certainly be less of a risk to the studio. And with R-rated films your audience is limited so mid-budget films often perform the best.
Not always true. Marketing budget is different than production budget in every way. Example:
Get Out has 4.5 million dollar production budget but it is quite obvious the studio spent much more on advertising. Low production budgets do not equal low advertising budgets -
Blair Witch Project, anyone
Quote from: SiL on Feb 27, 2018, 04:00:05 AM
Annihilation is a terrible example. It's only being released theatrically in the US. It's straight to Netflix for everyone else - and that's because of in fighting behind the scenes over how 'cerebral' the film is.
You can simply compare North American box office returns without the international receipts. When you compare things, they are never going to be identical - an argument of this nature is quite pedantic. There are whole fields of Comparative Politics or Comparative Literature. Do you not compare things because of differences? So you shouldn't compare political systems in Italy and France because they have different institutions or speak different languages?
Films are generally compared on a genre basis. It doesn't make sense to compare Alien films to Marvel films, for example. Hence, the hullaballoo over the box office of
IT and
Get Out - they were hyped because those types of horror movies previously hadn't brought in those types of returns.
Does anyone think there is a better, more recent comparison? Any other R-rated, Sci-Fi/Horror films over the past two years? Any with financial success?
QuoteIt depends what you consider "low budget" but crime film The Counselor (2013) had a 25 million dollar budget. So, your statement doesn't hold completely true.
It's more about what I consider "genre". I don't consider The Counsellor to be such.
Quote from: Prof. a on Mar 05, 2018, 06:28:52 PM
Not always true. Marketing budget is different than production budget in every way. Example: Get Out has 4.5 million dollar production budget but it is quite obvious the studio spent much more on advertising. Low production budgets do not equal low advertising budgets - Blair Witch Project, anyone
Get Out had a ridiculously low production budget so in such a case the studio might spend more on marketing if they think they have a winner on their hands. Those are exceptions though, generally a $40 million film won't have the same marketing budget as a $100 million film.
The man is busy as usual
https://twitter.com/screenrant/status/974407416942120963
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Mar 20, 2018, 02:08:25 AM
The man is busy as usual
https://twitter.com/screenrant/status/974407416942120963
Yep... This worried me.
At this point, I kind of hope he hands it off to another director and stays on as a producer so he can get his story out, but use another director's marketability to boost box office earnings.
Don't know of many directors working past 80 and Scott's getting offers left and right.
Quote from: Scorpio on Mar 20, 2018, 11:38:07 AM
Don't know of many directors working past 80 and Scott's getting offers left and right.
This is the worrying part to me. Just how many of these can he mow through before he gets to Alien: Awakening, or Alien: Exodus or whatever he wants to call it. Two years? Three? What will he be then, 83? The man is ADHD about his schedule picking up movies left and right, and not focusing on getting things out of the way first
Disney may want him to prooft himself first, we don't know.
Yeah Scott really needs to prove himself. [sarcasm]
Quote from: Scorpio on Mar 20, 2018, 07:48:19 PM
Yeah Scott really needs to prove himself. [sarcasm]
Maybe they read the comments on this forum and are concerned he's starting to lose it in old age. Thus, the need to prooft himself.
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 20, 2018, 07:30:12 PM
Quote from: Scorpio on Mar 20, 2018, 11:38:07 AM
Don't know of many directors working past 80 and Scott's getting offers left and right.
This is the worrying part to me. Just how many of these can he mow through before he gets to Alien: Awakening, or Alien: Exodus or whatever he wants to call it. Two years? Three? What will he be then, 83? The man is ADHD about his schedule picking up movies left and right, and not focusing on getting things out of the way first
He's made 16 movies in the last 20 years at a time in his life when most people would be retired. What is he not focused on or not getting out of the way?
Quote from: tleilaxu on Mar 20, 2018, 07:57:48 PM
Quote from: Scorpio on Mar 20, 2018, 07:48:19 PM
Yeah Scott really needs to prove himself. [sarcasm]
Maybe they read the comments on this forum and are concerned he's starting to lose it in old age. Thus, the need to prooft himself.
If they read the comments on this forum
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/9edb3d1be26f97abdbff5110b8695aba/tenor.gif?itemid=5191901)
I've been assuming it's more of a trade-off. Disney saying "We want to make a Merlin movie, and you're talented. Maybe we'll let you finish your Alien shit if you make sure Merlin doesn't suck."
And it's not like Disney doesn't have the money.
Quote from: SM on Mar 20, 2018, 10:55:01 PM
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Mar 20, 2018, 07:30:12 PM
Quote from: Scorpio on Mar 20, 2018, 11:38:07 AM
Don't know of many directors working past 80 and Scott's getting offers left and right.
This is the worrying part to me. Just how many of these can he mow through before he gets to Alien: Awakening, or Alien: Exodus or whatever he wants to call it. Two years? Three? What will he be then, 83? The man is ADHD about his schedule picking up movies left and right, and not focusing on getting things out of the way first
He's made 16 movies in the last 20 years at a time in his life when most people would be retired. What is he not focused on or not getting out of the way?
I know, but I'm just talking about his age and keeping up this pace. I mean Christ the man is 80 years old. How much longer can he plan to make more movies before retiring?
He won't. After his brothers died young, he'll be carried off a set feet first.
Yeah, Scott said he will never retire and will keep making movies till he dies.
That's true passion right there, if it was just a job to him, he would have retired long ago, and live off his considerable wealth. And yet some people say he 'phones it in', I don't understand this. He clearly loves what he does.
Whether you like the end result the man has a hell of a work ethic
I don't doubt his passion, but I feel like because he's been doing it so long, that there is an element of routine or complacency which may make him sloppy some times.
Quote from: PsyKore on Mar 22, 2018, 07:18:41 AM
I don't doubt his passion, but I feel like because he's been doing it so long, that there is an element of routine or complacency which may make him sloppy some times.
I mean, to be fair he is 80. And remembers a lot of the old preproduction shit from 1979 to bring back into the films. But to be fair, he is 80.
I hope he gets one more crack because the prequels seem to have become his real passion, more so than the original.
I can see how the Prometheus series is so personal to him, being that it centers on huge existential questions that, given his age, he must give a lot of thought about. It's almost like he's Weyland, a guy who has achieved so much already, but as he gets up there in age, starts to question the bigger picture of "what does it all mean?"
I've been away from this forum for a while, but after just rewatching alien covenant over the holiday weekend, I thought I'd vent at Ridley's obsession with AI / robots:
The Alien should be the star - not the AI or Android! By the time he releases his next Alien prequel movie - robot/ai movies will be two a penny as everyone in the film industry gets in on that gig in the final moments before interest wanes.
If Ridley wants to do something about AI, he should do something totally unique but imminently important. There is already a courtroom drama film in the works about where "malfunction" ends and guilt/punishment begins. Something different like that. But not under the alien franchise umbrella.
Almost a year since Alien Covenant and I'm still fuming about how Ridley chose to end the movie with David being complicit in the Alien's evolution. In fact, I deliberately stop the DVD prematurely just after Daniels seals Tennessee in the cryopod.
I prefer to think that as the screen fades to black, there's another solar flare and the covenant gets sent hurtling into a supermassive black hole. Good riddance. No more David, no more Alien embyos. Meanwhile, back on some LV planetoid, the eggs/facehuggers evolve naturally...
I don't agree with David creating the Xenos either, it makes them less Alien too. If Ridley wants to focus on AI/robots, then the next film should not have Alien in the titles. Make it a spin off instead.
Having the engineers be the creators would feel preordained and uninteresting. Creating a new villain in David and subverting expectations justified these prequels existing. I think David is a great villain and this is an interesting & dark origin story for these beasts. Even though they repeated many beats from Alien in the finale for fan service, I honestly feel like this is a really fresh story to tell in this franchise. A great new path is being forged here.
Quote from: motherfather on Apr 03, 2018, 12:17:43 PM
The Alien should be the star - not the AI or Android!
The aliens are animals. They can't carry a plot. There's only so much you can do with them. Alien movies where the aliens are literally the only villains would simply be mindless slasher monster movies. This series has always aimed higher than that. These films have always needed other villains to propel the aliens along and keep the story more interesting than just watching a crew get picked off one by one. The Weyland Corporation has always been the real villains of this series. I don't understand why the greedy corporation angle has always been embraced, but a villainous android suddenly gets tons of backlash from fans.
I also don't think Ridley means that the alien would be completely absent from the next film. He's just pointing out that David would be the main villain. The aliens would still be involved. He's obviously going to be breeding the creatures through the Covenant colonists. I'm personally dying to see this.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Apr 03, 2018, 12:52:47 PM
I don't agree with David creating the Xenos either, it makes them less Alien too.
These creatures were created from a mixture of DNA from various alien lifeforms using a biological weapon developed by alien lifeforms, and it happened on a planet other than Earth. Just because a man-made robot was stirring the pot, these creatures still meet every definition of the word "alien".
Quote from: necrotard on Apr 03, 2018, 02:57:40 PM
Having the engineers be the creators would feel preordained and uninteresting. Creating a new villain in David and subverting expectations justified these prequels existing. I think David is a great villain and this is an interesting & dark origin story for these beasts. Even though they repeated many beats from Alien in the finale for fan service, I honestly feel like this is a really fresh story to tell in this franchise. A great new path is being forged here.
Quote from: motherfather on Apr 03, 2018, 12:17:43 PM
The Alien should be the star - not the AI or Android!
The aliens are animals. They can't carry a plot. There's only so much you can do with them. Alien movies where the aliens are literally the only villains would simply be mindless slasher monster movies. This series has always aimed higher than that. These films have always needed other villains to propel the aliens along and keep the story more interesting than just watching a crew get picked off one by one. The Weyland Corporation has always been the real villains of this series. I don't understand why the greedy corporation angle has always been embraced, but a villainous android suddenly gets tons of backlash from fans.
I also don't think Ridley means that the alien would be completely absent from the next film. He's just pointing out that David would be the main villain. The aliens would still be involved. He's obviously going to be breeding the creatures through the Covenant colonists. I'm personally dying to see this.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Apr 03, 2018, 12:52:47 PM
I don't agree with David creating the Xenos either, it makes them less Alien too.
These creatures were created from a mixture of DNA from various alien lifeforms using a biological weapon developed by alien lifeforms, and it happened on a planet other than Earth. Just because a man-made robot was stirring the pot, these creatures still meet every definition of the word "alien".
Ya hit the nail right on the head sir. I've become totally obsessed with this A.I. slant on opening a portal of demons through a barren woman to be just.... so original while also twisted up with many bits of the best horror stories ever told, distilled to be existentially terrifying. "They grasp for resurrection, and I won't let them." Dudes.... that's coming out of a robots speaker in our lifetime, we worship machines over our own children and use cash registers instead of our brains to count change. Doomed is an understatement and this new spin on the Alien perfectly illustrates just how dumb we are for trusting machines to help us explore. We lost faith in ourselves and harbor disgust for each other and our mortality, (Wahhh It's not good enough. I wanna live forever, speak 72 languages, know quantum physics in 5 seconds, and play the flute. I hate myself and all of you for not being good enough.) This is portrayed nicely in Weyland and shown once you DO achieve that level of "coolness" that you are just a monster that looks down on all such as David does. This is why I love the book Dune, it deals with this conundrum properly, just as I imagine the Engineers dealt with the dangers of A.I. by doing all the work themselves and pushing their own evolution to make space travel easier. Not making some tool with a brain that can take you out. And so the Engineer rips his head off not out of anger, but out of sheer terror. Here's an interesting thought... if the Engineer DID get to Earth and Goo it... do you think any of the Androids like Walter would fight back for us? Another element I'm really loving in this new direction of the franchise is how our androids choose to be Angels or Demons after the update. Wonder what was different about Walter.... less Ego? Selflessness? Turtles all the way down. :laugh:
Quote from: necrotard on Apr 03, 2018, 02:57:40 PM
The aliens are animals. They can't carry a plot. There's only so much you can do with them. Alien movies where the aliens are literally the only villains would simply be mindless slasher monster movies. This series has always aimed higher than that. These films have always needed other villains to propel the aliens along and keep the story more interesting than just watching a crew get picked off one by one. The Weyland Corporation has always been the real villains of this series. I don't understand why the greedy corporation angle has always been embraced, but a villainous android suddenly gets tons of backlash from fans.
A. Animals can carry a plot (Jaws, The Birds, The Lion King, Free Willy etc').
B. The aliens are more than just animals ("What do you mean
they cut the power? How can they cut the power, man. They're animals!").
C. Of course the aliens can carry a plot. They've been carrying at least 4 plots in films alone. Their ability to carry a plot is why this forum exists in the first place. Yeah, sure, Weyland Yutani are the antagonists in the films, but their schemes are B plots. They aren't the main event. They never were the main event. You make them the main event and you get...well, Aliens:Colonial Marines.
The greedy corporation angle has always been embraced because the films were always about exposing the hubris and folly behind it. The films had something to say about their greedy ideology in the face of an indifferent and hostile universe. Covenant has nothing to say about David. He's just a space hitler, and his entire plotline undermines the very core of the Alien universe. Mankind is not an insignificant species that should act with caution about the things it might encounter in the far reaches of space - It's the center of everything.
Quote
These creatures were created from a mixture of DNA from various alien lifeforms using a biological weapon developed by alien lifeforms, and it happened on a planet other than Earth. Just because a man-made robot was stirring the pot, these creatures still meet every definition of the word "alien".
Actually, a man-made robot stirring the pot is all you need in order to not make it an alien, especially in a series of films where colonizing other planets is a norm. In the context of the Alien universe, being made on Earth is irrelevant. The xenomorph is about as alien as a Hedley's Hope produced iPhone. It's about as alien as Newt, for that matter.
^ agreed. I also think David/Fassbender no longer can claim the title of villain. He did own that title in Prometheus, and he owned it very well.
But by Alien Covenant, he was not so much threatening, but rather borderline preposterous. By Covenant, I just wanted to laugh at the caricature he had become, having gone waaay beyond sinister en route to silly.
Having said all that, whatever Ridley does with this next film, it had better be good from start to finish. No more movies where the first half is good, and the second half is rushed, out of keeping, illogical, silly or self-defeating.
Quote from: motherfather on Apr 03, 2018, 04:53:42 PM
^ agreed. I also think David/Fassbender no longer can claim the title of villain. He did own that title in Prometheus, and he owned it very well.
But by Alien Covenant, he was not so much threatening, but rather borderline preposterous. By Covenant, I just wanted to laugh at the caricature he had become, having gone waaay beyond sinister en route to silly.
Having said all that, whatever Ridley does with this next film, it had better be good from start to finish. No more movies where the first half is good, and the second half is rushed, out of keeping, illogical, silly or self-defeating.
It's interesting. Everybody hates the Lindelof Script of Prometheus much more than the Jon Spaihts script. And I've been telling people this whole time, "yeah, a lot of these scenes are horrifying and it would make amazing practical set pieces, but some of the characterization is f**king bizarre, and David is a twirling mustachio Sun Tzu Machiavelli Hannibal Lector to a preposterous degree, the guy is comically insane, and not in a great way" And people passed it off sort of. I mean, maybe opinion has changed, but overall the David in Covenant is the David in the Spaihts script.
One of Lindelof's better contributions to Prometheus was understanding David as a fleshed out character with ambiguous motives the audience isn't sure is or is not the real antagonist, or maybe he's his own being, hiding it from everyone else. I'm not saying I hated David in Covenant, in fact I like him as a character, we just needed more of him or to tone it down. I know I'm basically George Lucas saying "David is the key to all of this" instead of saying "Jar Jar is the key to all of this" but, well, Michael Fassbender is the star of this show more than the Aliens. He can make me say, "Ok that's absolutely ridiculous, but you are trying your best Michael, and I am here for it"
If only we had more of the kills and scenes from the Spaihts script recycled into this one, the Neomorph is not nearly as fluid moving as it was described. But then again, I understand that one of them sliding through a small pipe behind some security looking for it, and unfolding out of it into its humanoid shape might sound great on paper, but in animation it might look somewhat ridiculous. There could have been middle ground. There's not nearly enough of them in the film. I know the whole "Holloway's distorted face beneath the Neomorph's cowl" was a bit much for people; however this film is about couples dying, so seeing the face of your dead husband/wife through the face faintly through its own 'face", would have been creepy. It could have also been preposterous. A lot of these ideas sound great but in practicality they're somewhat hard to make right
There are other things he brought back from Spaihts's script, but ultimately they removed some of the tension in favor of David's descent into becoming absolute bonkers, instead of toning that down a tad, and inserting certain action sequences from the "Magellan" into the tunnel, if they really wanted to bring back elements of the earlier Prometheus drafts.
Bottom line, know when to hold em,
Everybody would have been expecting David to be like he was in Prometheus, but instead they made him more of a villain than a grey character. This works for the movie as it is something we hadn't seen before. The next movie they could make him a hero.
I'm surprised to see people criticize Michael Fassbender's portrayal of David in Covenant. He was by far the best part of Covenant for me.
And I definitely don't see him as a simple villain.
I agree but he was less nuanced than in Prometheus. Though, after 10 years alone without maintenance, even synthetics can go a little crazy.
I felt David was the same in both films, honestly. I mean, there's some pretty dark things that he says and does in Prometheus. It's just that in Covenant he's entirely off his leash.
Nothing wrong with a bit of moustache twirling, that's the fun of watching of movie villains. Rarely does a good villain come along in a movie. The last time a movie series had an original great villain is probably The Matrix. They usually just try to make the villain look cool or menacing.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Apr 03, 2018, 12:52:47 PM
I don't agree with David creating the Xenos either, it makes them less Alien too. If Ridley wants to focus on AI/robots, then the next film should not have Alien in the titles. Make it a spin off instead.
It's truly a shame that his love for AI didn't make him return to blade runner. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed 2049, but there's no telling what amazing films those would've been. And we might've had another alien movie, that actually felt like an Alien movie. If it feels like a slasher film, that's because it is. But that's okay, because it's set in an awesome universe with a fantastic creature. If I want philosophical AI, I'll watch blade runner. Ash was done perfectly, and (in my opinion) was the only way to handle robots in this universe. Unknown, intelligent, threatening, but not the focal point of the movie. He had the right idea, but picked the wrong series to express it. It's been so long, I need to see a crew hunted throughout and entire movie by an alien. I need to see a hive, badly.
Why would people want to work with threatening robots?
Quote from: SM on Apr 11, 2018, 08:06:18 PM
Why would people want to work with threatening robots?
Because who doesn't like to live dangerously? Seriously though, my point was this. Ash was an unknown threat. He was a crewmember, he had responsibilities, he was interesting. Then he became threatening, then he attacked, then it was over. I've got nothing against hostile AI's. But making it the focal point of the movie is most effective in a scenario like blade runner, not an Alien film. With David, we spent an entire movie knowing he was hostile. His hostility for humanity is the driving force for these movies. It led to the destruction of the engineers, the one thing I believed could've saved covenant was wiped out right off the bat. Even Shaw was killed off-screen.
It's like making Ben Hur be about the guy who built Messala's chariot, and his lifelong grudge against Messala because he stole his ham sandwich when they were children. It's just overuse of the wrong character, and it's unnecessary. David's character was great in Prometheus, but that's as far as he should've gone. Thinking of it now. I'd personally have rather seen covenant go one of two ways.
1. Shaw found a way to go into cryosleep. A rescue mission sent to look for weyland, lands on 223 and is hunted by the deacon. You'd have many good set pieces in the underground tunnels, on the rescue ship, in the crashed juggernaut. A lot of good horror to be found there. Shaw could also make an appearance. Being the sole survivor, she could take their ship and survive.
2. David was able to activate the second juggernaut, and set a course for paradise. He either passes during the journey, or is actually betrayed by shaw, and flushed out into space before reaching paradise. The movie follows her descent into the hell she thought would be paradise.
It's the two most memorable characters in Alien - one is the android. The others are stock characters. So they re-use it in the sequels. While the female protagonist has been done to death now, the android side hasn't.
I agree with Ridley Scott, A.I. is what needs to be explored now. It's more relevant, and it's part of the original Alien just as much as the female protagonist.
I don't get why people have issue with this, usually in film series that goes to 6 installments, they don't innovate or come up with anything new or interesting.
Quote from: Scorpio on Apr 11, 2018, 09:57:53 PM
It's the two most memorable characters in Alien - one is the android. The others are stock characters. So they re-use it in the sequels. While the female protagonist has been done to death now, the android side hasn't.
I agree with Ridley Scott, A.I. is what needs to be explored now. It's more relevant, and it's part of the original Alien just as much as the female protagonist.
I don't get why people have issue with this, usually in film series that goes to 6 installments, they don't innovate or come up with anything new or interesting.
I get what you're saying. Though I doubt Ash would've been very memorable had he been a good character and just disappeared or have been killed in the medlab or something. But, seeing as how Ash was what he was, and Bishops character being what he was, I'd say that both sides of the good and bad android spectrum have been sufficiently represented already. It's hard not to find a movie that doesn't involve AI nowadays, so distancing itself from this trend might actually be a good thing for the series. What we've yet to see though, is another Alien film in the original style, with a strong male lead, but it's not necessary, nor do I need to see it. I would like to see at least one more traditional Alien movie made someday, regardless of the lead actor's gender. It may prove more financially successful at this point.
The path to link David to Ash's motivations & actions is being established imo
Quote from: David Weyland on Apr 11, 2018, 10:58:29 PM
The path to link David to Ash's motivations & actions is being established imo
Perhaps it will be a situation where David transfers his consciousness onto Ash. We've had David use the term "perfect organism" already. And all of this takes place before Alien. Maybe that's why Ash used those words. There's really no telling until we get there though. Maybe Ash learns of David and admires him.
Ash was motivated by a special order.
Quote from: SM on Apr 12, 2018, 12:37:51 AM
Ash was motivated by a special order.
And I once believed the Aliens weren't created by an android. It was a special order, for a special boy, a very strange enchanted boy. ;)
But not a real boy.
Quote from: SM on Apr 12, 2018, 01:35:56 AM
But not a real boy.
"They are making them pretty close..." ;)
Quote from: Darwinsgirl on Apr 12, 2018, 02:14:13 AM
Quote from: SM on Apr 12, 2018, 01:35:56 AM
But not a real boy.
"They are making them pretty close..." ;)
(https://68.media.tumblr.com/4459f07d3b03d01b0bd405f59712889c/tumblr_oq6cyqGfb61wo1px3o6_400.gif)
;)
I'm just curious why the older David and Walter series are physically superior to the Ash model, I mean Ash was strong as you can see he easily overpowers Parker but in terms of sheer toughness and durability.....his head came off pretty easily from being hit with a fire extinguisher or whatever it was. Whereas David and Walter threw each other about and punched one another with superhuman strength yet never fell apart. And these are older models.
These prequels have caused some continuity snarl when it comes to technology. :laugh:
Quote from: The Cruentus on Apr 14, 2018, 11:23:38 AM
These prequels have caused some continuity snarl when it comes to technology. :laugh:
That's prequels for you.
Neither David nor Walter went up against Parker, but.
Quote from: SM on Apr 14, 2018, 11:31:01 AM
Neither David nor Walter went up against Parker, but.
"Right" ;)
Maybe Parker's a replicant? :P
Quote from: Still Collating... on Apr 14, 2018, 05:54:18 PM
Maybe Parker's a replicant? :P
The whole deal with the bonus situation makes more sense now.
Parker had Yaphet Kotto Power, so it makes sense he'd be able to decapitate an android with a single blow.
Quote from: Kailem on Apr 14, 2018, 06:14:22 PM
Parker had Yaphet Kotto Power, so it makes sense he'd be able to decapitate an android with a single blow.
I was surprised to learn some time ago that there's actually a screamo band named Yaphet Kotto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLjnCxnFaQ8
Wot in tarnation..
Quote from: Kailem on Apr 14, 2018, 06:14:22 PM
Parker had Yaphet Kotto Power, so it makes sense he'd be able to decapitate an android with a single blow.
Don't mess with Alonzo Mosely.
"The Goo ain't that bad, baby!"
Brand new interview with Ridley Scott in which he talks about how hard it is "coming up with an idea as unique as the xenomorph":
https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/ridley-scott-terror-rebooting-thelma-louise-whats-happening-alien-exclusive-140743735.html (https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/ridley-scott-terror-rebooting-thelma-louise-whats-happening-alien-exclusive-140743735.html)
Is he kidding? Didn't he have that right there in front of him with the Engineers in the Prometheus film before he decided to turn them into just bigger and meaner versions of humans? We could have had a new foe (sp.) for mankind with the Engineers when they discovered that they hadn't wiped out us puny humans after all and decided to complete their mission and finish us off. I'm guessing he didn't go in that direction because...I don't really know...maybe these movies wouldn't make any money because there was no alien like fans had seen in the 1979 movie and that was the reason we got the Deacon in Prometheus (just my wild guess at this point)? Sounds like he's gotten himself into a tight spot with this and I guess we'll see how creative he is with what happens in the third film. Just feel David as an antagonist in the films can't hold a candle to the original alien, so I'm not really interested in seeing more of David as the bad guy/baddie. He's just not bad enough. If Riddles feels he doesn't want to re-introduce the original alien, and he's killed of the idea of any further discovery with the Engineers as antagonists, I'm not sure what he's got left unless it's something entirely new he pulls out of his hat and how well will that work if he's surrounded by yes people who are scared to tell him his idea might just be a bad one. Who knows...guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Apr 17, 2018, 04:30:40 PM
Brand new interview with Ridley Scott in which he talks about how hard it is "coming up with an idea as unique as the xenomorph":
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Apr 17, 2018, 04:30:40 PM
Brand new interview with Ridley Scott in which he talks about how hard it is "coming up with an idea as unique as the xenomorph":
https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/ridley-scott-terror-rebooting-thelma-louise-whats-happening-alien-exclusive-140743735.html (https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/ridley-scott-terror-rebooting-thelma-louise-whats-happening-alien-exclusive-140743735.html)
I'm torn between
if it's broke don't fix it and
if the best we can get is a 20 minute scene with a xenomorph, please mercy please just go out there a littleI am torn 50/50 on this.. But....that's what these prequels do best. Might as well enjoy the ride while it lasts.
Dan O' Bannon's script for Alien was for a b movie. It was Scott that had the vision to make it an A picture. People forget this. I'm not worshipping R.S. but that's how it is.
For over 30 years the Space Jockey was just some weird looking elephant thing. Then it was changed to a giant humanoid wearing a spacesuit and everybody loses their minds.
B movie idea VS A+ execution
An elephant monster is a b movie idea. There are tons of b movies with weird rubber creatures in them. Galaxy of Terror, for example:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkaiju.wdfiles.com%2Flocal--files%2Fwiki%3Amorganthus_monster%2Fmorganthus_monster_1981_01.jpg&hash=9c435cfb8467918c3b8f097012bc8b06066715db)
I love b movies but they're a dime a dozen. Particularly in the 80s, there were lots of them.
Alien has always been an A concept. Because of Ridley Scott.
Quote from: Scorpio on Apr 20, 2018, 01:05:09 AM
Dan O' Bannon's script for Alien was for a b movie. It was Scott that had the vision to make it an A picture. People forget this. I'm not worshipping R.S. but that's how it is.
For over 30 years the Space Jockey was just some weird looking elephant thing. Then it was changed to a giant humanoid wearing a spacesuit and everybody loses their minds.
B movie idea VS A+ execution
An elephant monster is a b movie idea. There are tons of b movies with weird rubber creatures in them. Galaxy of Terror, for example:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkaiju.wdfiles.com%2Flocal--files%2Fwiki%3Amorganthus_monster%2Fmorganthus_monster_1981_01.jpg&hash=9c435cfb8467918c3b8f097012bc8b06066715db)
I love b movies but they're a dime a dozen. Particularly in the 80s, there were lots of them.
Alien has always been an A concept. Because of Ridley Scott.
If David and Walter and the crew (for as equally bad a movie they would have made), they introduced the whole grimy working class truckers elements into the mix. Ridley just sort of morphed them all together. Beyond that artists like Ron Cobb had a huge influence into the style and look of the film, and let's not forget HR Giger. So many people had input into how minor beats of the film went, particularly the actors. It wasn't all Scott's doing,
it was just a one in a million chance that too many cooks in the kitchen didn't rip the film apart with infighting, but ended up on the silver screen as a great movie with great ideas. If we removed O'Bannon, there would be no Giger. If we remove the David and Walter rewrites, we get a clean room 2001-esque movie that's probably insulting to Kubrick. Everyone had a creative soup to start from, and they made a buffet of the various ideas in all of the drafts going further. It was just one of those times where everything basically worked out in the end despite so many voices having input (that includes O'Bannon)
O Bannon was introduced to Giger by Jodorowsky, O Bannon didn't seek out Giger on his own, so if you're going to give O Bannon credit for bringing in Giger, may as well credit Jodorowsky as well.
Quote from: Scorpio on Apr 20, 2018, 01:37:03 AM
O Bannon was introduced to Giger by Jodorowsky, O Bannon didn't seek out Giger on his own, so if you're going to give O Bannon credit for bringing in Giger, may as well credit Jodorowsky as well.
That's Hollywood baby. Doesn't matter who networked who, who in turn, networked who. That's just the way it is. Jordo had nothing to do with the project, but O'Bannon did, and he was aware of Giger. Were it not for the fates meeting perfectly, we probably would have one goofy ass alien. Also even if his drafts were flawed, I'm not doubting they were very bad, you have to understand they were writing under the pretext this was a Roger Corman flick. It wasn't until big studio people got involved that his Roger Corman script quickly began attracting big names, so it has to be said that while the script itself wasn't that great, the soul of the script is pretty f**king good.
Clunky dialogue sure (nothing rewrites couldn't fix), but the skeleton of what Alien is, was still there. It's a beacon, they land and investigate the beacon. They see a crashed derelict ship, and then find a pyramid, yada yada. Giler and his crew came along and said "This isn't an Alien movie, this is about a biological weapon made by the government, there's an Android ob board"
Scott comes on board and decides to look at each competing take on the story and have a buffet of it all. Picking and choosing what works, what doesn't etc. At the point Ridley got involved, O'Bannon felt he had the clout to express his wishes for what the alien should look like, O'Bannon giddily gave him HR Giger's Necrom IV. Ridley concludes this is the beast..
And from there they began to understand a solid idea of what the film was. I also hardly believe in auteur theory (with few exceptions).
I'm not saying one person gets credit in a film, that's stupid. I'm saying it is the movie we're obsessing over because it involved the entire crew. You take an O'Bannon out of the equation of production, you lose quite a lot. Even if his drafts were pretty hokey, the ominous story beats are still there.
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Apr 20, 2018, 01:48:04 AM
I'm not saying one person gets credit in a film, that's stupid. I'm saying it is the movie we're obsessing over because it involved the entire crew. You take an O'Bannon out of the equation of production, you lose quite a lot. Even if his drafts were pretty hokey, the ominous story beats are still there.
Damn right. And that is something that is forgotten too often in my opinion.
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Apr 20, 2018, 01:48:04 AM
I'm not saying one person gets credit in a film, that's stupid. I'm saying it is the movie we're obsessing over because it involved the entire crew. You take an O'Bannon out of the equation of production, you lose quite a lot. Even if his drafts were pretty hokey, the ominous story beats are still there.
I think we're all pretty much on the same page here.
"Alien" clearly was a team effort where there were several people who were essential to its creation.
- O'Bannon is certainly crucial. But so are Ronald Shusett, Scott, Giger, David Giler, Walter Hill, Ron Cobb as well as the top notch cast.
* Now, what I think got this part of the debate going was the Ridley Scott interview where he describes meeting Giger and Ridley doesn't tell the full story. Result; irritation by some.
- My view is that filmmakers/creators, in telling history, exaggerate their role in the process.
One example is O'Bannon. I've heard multiple commentaries by him and he repeatedly dismisses or trashes the imo important additions to the script done by Giler and Hill.
- Creators have big egos. They often see themselves as bigger than life (from Steve Jobs to Elon Musk).
The fictional Peter Weyland is a caricature of that kind of personality.
- So Scott only focuses on his role in meeting Giger and getting the xenomorph into "Alien".
We all see his exaggeration.
But to me it's not a big deal. He's like a grandfather telling stories. People I meet do that kind of thing. We fans can sort out the historical details.
;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bqa-mt9rgA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bqa-mt9rgA)
Ridley already has great stuff to work with, it just has to be executed well. I don't know why he wants something new on par with the Xenomorph. I wonder if it's something to do with Daniels and what David will spawn from her. Whatever the case, I think he's just gotta keep it simple, have a good script that's cohesive and ties the prequels together well. I honestly just want Ridley to not care about it so much and have fun with it. Ignore the fans and studio and just do what you want. I loved Covenant, warts and all, and I'm happy with him concluding the prequels.
Quote from: PsyKore on Apr 20, 2018, 01:09:14 PM
Ridley already has great stuff to work with, it just has to be executed well. I don't know why he wants something new on par with the Xenomorph. I wonder if it's something to do with Daniels and what David will spawn from her. Whatever the case, I think he's just gotta keep it simple, have a good script that's cohesive and ties the prequels together well. I honestly just want Ridley to not care about it so much and have fun with it. Ignore the fans and studio and just do what you want. I loved Covenant, warts and all, and I'm happy with him concluding the prequels.
Thank you! I want Riddles to go buck wild, pardon the pun.
I'd just bring in Hampton Fancher from BR 2049 to help out Michael Green with the script to nicely tie all the loose ends from Covenant and Prometheus. I know Scott was outspoken regarding BR 2049 length, though that helped create a cohesive story that Awakening will need to close the trilogy. Let's see what happens.
QuoteI don't know why he wants something new on par with the Xenomorph.
Because he's a filmmaker. I suspect he wants to do new stuff rather than repeating himself.
Quote from: Ingwar on Apr 20, 2018, 12:00:59 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bqa-mt9rgA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bqa-mt9rgA)
People taking Scott's words out of context, again. Any excuse to bash him.
And O Bannon didn't bring in Giger, he suggested him to Scott because Jodorowsky had recruited them both for his Dune project. The story goes that Giger showed O Bannon his artwork. But it was Scott who chose Giger, as he has said in a 1979 interview, he knew immediately as soon as he saw Giger's art.
Quote from: PsyKore on Apr 20, 2018, 01:09:14 PM
...
I don't know why he wants something new on par with the Xenomorph.
...
The biggest change that occurred with the xenomorph was when Cameron got hold of it. Suddenly it became a savage, animalistic beast, an interpretation quite different from Scott's original concept:
You can't tell me this is the same xeno (in terms of behaviour) that we see in Aliens, or any of the subsequent stories. Alien 3, Alien:Res, AvP, even Alien Isolation, followed Cameron's lead on xeno behaviour. i.e. Physically dynamic sprinting and leaping acrobatics, crawling on vertical surfaces, snarling, slashing, etc.
Of course, this is a deleted scene so Cameron has the excuse (just as with the deletion of egg-morphing) that anything not used in the theatrical release is fair game for a re-write.
But I find it interesting that in Covenant even Scott followed suit. Apparently, contrary to what he has said on the matter, in making the prequels he really
was influenced by all the other entries in the franchise.
Don't you wonder what the hell Scott would have come up with if
he had made the Alien '79 sequel, not Cameron? Something that respected the original O'Bannon/Shusett concept of an alien whose lethality is due to its rampant sex drive and (literally) bestial urge to mate.
TC
***EDIT:
I just re-read this and it sounds like I'm dissing Cameron and Aliens. This is not my intention. I love Alien. I love Aliens. But because of this disparity in the two concepts of the xeno (in behaviour, I stress), I've always thought of Aliens as a kind of reboot.
Quote from: TC on Apr 21, 2018, 10:48:57 AM
Quote from: PsyKore on Apr 20, 2018, 01:09:14 PM
...
I don't know why he wants something new on par with the Xenomorph.
...
The biggest change that occurred with the xenomorph was when Cameron got hold of it. Suddenly it became a savage, animalistic beast, an interpretation quite different from Scott's original concept:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmGzYjJYvU4
You can't tell me this is the same xeno (in terms of behaviour) that we see in Aliens, or any of the subsequent stories. Alien 3, Alien:Res, AvP, even Alien Isolation, followed Cameron's lead on xeno behaviour. i.e. Physically dynamic sprinting and leaping acrobatics, crawling on vertical surfaces, snarling, slashing, etc.
Of course, this is a deleted scene so Cameron has the excuse (just as with the deletion of egg-morphing) that anything not used in the theatrical release is fair game for a re-write.
But I find it interesting that in Covenant even Scott followed suit. Apparently, contrary to what he has said on the matter, in making the prequels he really was influenced by all the other entries in the franchise.
Don't you wonder what the hell Scott would have come up with if he had made the Alien '79 sequel, not Cameron? Something that respected the original O'Bannon/Shusett concept of an alien whose lethality is due to its rampant sex drive and (literally) bestial urge to mate.
TC
***EDIT: I just re-read this and it sounds like I'm dissing Cameron and Aliens. This is not my intention. I love Alien. I love Aliens. But because of this disparity in the two concepts of the xeno (in behaviour, I stress), I've always thought of Aliens as a kind of reboot.
My man, Ridley wanted to do what Cameron did from the beginning. The Alien would have been clinging to walls, running at probably at least Mach 5 down a shaft..Just a generally deadly angry wolverine who happens to want to f**k everything in its path. And worse yet, you think it's some stupid animal from some other world. That was Ridley's intention, to do Cameron's Aliens. But without a budget, and a suit that could hardly run; they opted for a different approach. Whichever you like, Ridley still wanted the Alien to move around, at a probably faster velocity than even the ones in Cameron's Aliens.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scified.com%2Fu%2FALIEN-512.jpg&hash=4757b636f0339e106ad31f4f4ef37d2cec6e9648)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-sCQmVnAaRW8%2FUCA77NFY9MI%2FAAAAAAAACho%2FkCZv9omEgAQ%2Fs1600%2FALIEN-38.bmp)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-HHHxruAYh6U%2FUCA9TfR1RzI%2FAAAAAAAACiI%2FW8cjdkkU910%2Fs1600%2FALIEN-45.bmp)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-ud0eAukDgFg%2FUCBTYy4NlsI%2FAAAAAAAACks%2Feq_3M-h_H-8%2Fs1600%2FALIEN-44.bmp)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS2bY8gWoAAcfHs.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS2bZWjW4AEqRfH.jpg)
Cameron expanded on Scott's Ridleygrams to add to his own fiilm.
The behavior between the two films is indeed different, but, I think definitely fits the needs of both films perfectly. Whatever the reasons, the creatures in both films and their behavior was right for the stories being told. I'm glad the first alien wasn't like Cameron's creature, and I'm all for trying a new approach, just so long as we don't know where the freakin things are next time.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Apr 20, 2018, 07:29:39 AM
Quote from: NetworkATTH on Apr 20, 2018, 01:48:04 AM
I'm not saying one person gets credit in a film, that's stupid. I'm saying it is the movie we're obsessing over because it involved the entire crew. You take an O'Bannon out of the equation of production, you lose quite a lot. Even if his drafts were pretty hokey, the ominous story beats are still there.
Damn right. And that is something that is forgotten too often in my opinion.
Indeed, I was saying something similar in another thread. Basically how Alien was good because it had all the different "ingredients" which Covenant lacked. People too often forget the Ridley Scott isn't the sole creator. I strongly believe in giving credit where credit is due.
Quote from: TC on Apr 21, 2018, 10:48:57 AM
Quote from: PsyKore on Apr 20, 2018, 01:09:14 PM
...
I don't know why he wants something new on par with the Xenomorph.
...
The biggest change that occurred with the xenomorph was when Cameron got hold of it. Suddenly it became a savage, animalistic beast, an interpretation quite different from Scott's original concept:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmGzYjJYvU4
You can't tell me this is the same xeno (in terms of behaviour) that we see in Aliens, or any of the subsequent stories. Alien 3, Alien:Res, AvP, even Alien Isolation, followed Cameron's lead on xeno behaviour. i.e. Physically dynamic sprinting and leaping acrobatics, crawling on vertical surfaces, snarling, slashing, etc.
Of course, this is a deleted scene so Cameron has the excuse (just as with the deletion of egg-morphing) that anything not used in the theatrical release is fair game for a re-write.
But I find it interesting that in Covenant even Scott followed suit. Apparently, contrary to what he has said on the matter, in making the prequels he really was influenced by all the other entries in the franchise.
Don't you wonder what the hell Scott would have come up with if he had made the Alien '79 sequel, not Cameron? Something that respected the original O'Bannon/Shusett concept of an alien whose lethality is due to its rampant sex drive and (literally) bestial urge to mate.
TC
***EDIT: I just re-read this and it sounds like I'm dissing Cameron and Aliens. This is not my intention. I love Alien. I love Aliens. But because of this disparity in the two concepts of the xeno (in behaviour, I stress), I've always thought of Aliens as a kind of reboot.
Cameron's Aliens are not that different from the first, they are both animals, they are both savage and they both move slowly and deliberately as well. The difference, other than the slight design change, is budget/the suits. The suits in Aliens were designed so that the wearer had more movement whereas the first Alien suit was encumbersome, I think the poor guy couldn't even sit down sometimes.
In Aliens, the wearers could now perform faster and more acrobatic movements which the previous suit could not, its all about limitations. So when the Warriors were not being stalker-like, they could jump, walk on walls and ceilings and move much more fluidly. Scott would later have his new Xenomorph be just as energetic if not moreso in Covenant. I am willing to bet if he had the budget and better suits, Scott too would have shown it more faster or at least more acrobatic.
Quote from: SM on Apr 20, 2018, 09:56:15 PM
QuoteI don't know why he wants something new on par with the Xenomorph.
Because he's a filmmaker. I suspect he wants to do new stuff rather than repeating himself.
Yeah I can understand that, but from my opinion I feel like it's a case of trying to reinvent the wheel. Honestly, I think he just needs to focus on great execution of what he already has to work with.
Personally I think the damage is done by this point, but the smartest move would be to go back to what made the first film work so well and that was the sense of realism at play for the time. Make a simple story/framework and get some really strong character actors in it, and make a scary science fiction film. Don't even try to dance with the weirder stuff.
What made the first movie work was a low tech environment, setting it apart from Star Trek or 2001, and the monster's life cycle which is beyond clichéd by this point after being copied and referenced so many times.
Quote from: SM on Apr 23, 2018, 02:57:13 AM
What made the first movie work was a low tech environment, setting it apart from Star Trek or 2001, and the monster's life cycle which is beyond clichéd by this point after being copied and referenced so many times.
I think it could work if they beat the f**k out of a ship enough traveling through space with no need to return to Earth, Earth being too expensive yada yada. You end up with these ships made up of duct tape. I mean you could do it, but you would have to completely destroy it to kingdom come and have it barely be usable, and use that as a plot point. A red alarm klaxon blares half circling a mess hall, but it malfunctions at random times. And you only get small glimpses of the alien sniffing around, breathing.
I mean you're right, but having a ship that's even more beat up than the Nostromo would be a fascinating setting you can do a lot with
Quote from: SM on Apr 23, 2018, 02:57:13 AM
What made the first movie work was a low tech environment, setting it apart from Star Trek or 2001, and the monster's life cycle which is beyond clichéd by this point after being copied and referenced so many times.
There are other aspects that could be matured from Alien without going into the wacky wacky woo-woo land that the prequels did.
Just one simple tweak that comes up in 30 seconds is, we've had "Truckes in space", and "Vietnam soldiers in space" but there are other similar motifs that could be played with in that vein without being exactly the same.
Yep. Prisoners in space, oh no wait. Pirates in space! No, no, hang on. Scientists?
Colonists?
Oh, I know! How about just average US middle American townsfolks - but not in space - ON EARTH!!
I'll get my coat.
We've still got future Earth to play with, I dunno why somebody just doesn't go there. The company got it back - it gets out.
Set it in a Blade Runner esk future environment, we've got ourselves a film.
Quote from: SM on Apr 23, 2018, 04:35:25 AM
I'll get my coat.
Tell me it's a bright yellow raincoat that makes an awkward amount of "squish" noises when you move.
Quote from: Highland on Apr 23, 2018, 05:07:37 AM
We've still got future Earth to play with, I dunno why somebody just doesn't go there. The company got it back - it gets out.
Set it in a Blade Runner esk future environment, we've got ourselves a film.
To my mind Gateway Station was the ideal setting for Alien 3. Anchorpoint in the Gibson drafts was fairly close to what I had in mind. Something that is cut from similar thematic elements as Alien in terms of design and characters, but not a replication. They're mostly blue collar workers and civilians and scientists who are put into extraordinary circumstance.
Just like dragging your thumb across a balloon.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Apr 23, 2018, 05:35:46 AM
Quote from: SM on Apr 23, 2018, 04:35:25 AM
I'll get my coat.
Tell me it's a bright yellow raincoat that makes an awkward amount of "squish" noises when you move.
Quote from: Highland on Apr 23, 2018, 05:07:37 AM
We've still got future Earth to play with, I dunno why somebody just doesn't go there. The company got it back - it gets out.
Set it in a Blade Runner esk future environment, we've got ourselves a film.
To my mind Gateway Station was the ideal setting for Alien 3. Anchorpoint in the Gibson drafts was fairly close to what I had in mind. Something that is cut from similar thematic elements as Alien in terms of design and characters, but not a replication. They're mostly blue collar workers and civilians and scientists who are put into extraordinary circumstance.
Gateway station would definitely make a good setting, it worked well in rebellion's avp game, and Isolation had sevastopol station. The good thing about stations is that its big enough to get lost in yet still retains small, claustrophobic hallways. Plus a station like Sevastopol is out of the way and fairly isolated, especially because the travel routes changed I think, which is one of the reason the station failed.
Quote from: Highland on Apr 23, 2018, 05:07:37 AM
We've still got future Earth to play with, I dunno why somebody just doesn't go there. The company got it back - it gets out.
Set it in a Blade Runner esk future environment, we've got ourselves a film.
It gets out and what then, gets killed by a couple of Weyland Yutani guards? Sounds pretty underwhelming.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Apr 23, 2018, 02:50:33 AM
Personally I think the damage is done by this point, but the smartest move would be to go back to what made the first film work so well and that was the sense of realism at play for the time. Make a simple story/framework and get some really strong character actors in it, and make a scary science fiction film. Don't even try to dance with the weirder stuff.
Actually I want even weirder stuff than Covenant. I want Fox to get really experimental and produce the most off-the-wall insane Alien movie possible.
I have a serious problem with pointless destruction of a city environment in an Alien movie. Alien is about the remoteness of space and preventing that from happening. For the alien to reach Earth and start wrecking shit would kind of defeat the purpose of Alien. Shit is about deep space, empty, ominous, deep space, with a small ship on an unremarkable planetoid moon orbiting a gas giant. Wailing its ghostly transmission for anyone to come near like a siren song.
Now I doubt it would be like Eric Red's script, but I could see it quickly going out of control into that, or don't get me started on AVP:R. Aliens and Earth do not mix. Ya can't have your x and eat your y too.
That said it works great for predator, but ever since the introductory titles rolled for the first movie it told you what this movie and its sequels was about. The closest "official" attack on a "town" you could call it was Hadley's Hope, and we didn't need to see what happened because the horror levels would be comically over the top. All you needed to know what they cleaned house. The main three are about Ripley protecting Earth from this dragon, and in the end she succeeds. I can't imagine a way they get to a big city without disclosure of their existence being known to the public rapidly, or how it fits with Ripley's arc as a character as a martyr and a kind of Jean of Arc figure, that despite ultimately dying, she won in the end.
Having aliens rampage through a ground based city just sounds like it could get a bit too Gremlins 2 unintentionally. Now on a space station, that's good shit. Gibson's Anchorpoint (second draft) and Sevestapol were both spectacular ways to deal with the problem. Particularly the latter. It adds the dimension of not being able to escape, being claustrophobic, trapped, and while acid wasn't part of the deal in A:I; introduce that as well. A scared population with guns in a fairly well populated space station to test what would happen. That would be interesting if not a retread.
I just think part of the horror of Alien is the fact it takes place far enough away from Earth trapped, with an absurdly limited time limit to give someone in the audience a stroke. It's a good formula
Quote from: KillCrites on Apr 23, 2018, 04:22:32 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Apr 23, 2018, 02:50:33 AM
Personally I think the damage is done by this point, but the smartest move would be to go back to what made the first film work so well and that was the sense of realism at play for the time. Make a simple story/framework and get some really strong character actors in it, and make a scary science fiction film. Don't even try to dance with the weirder stuff.
Actually I want even weirder stuff than Covenant. I want Fox to get really experimental and produce the most off-the-wall insane Alien movie possible.
They have, its called Aliens vs. Predator; Requiem.. :P
Quote from: The Cruentus on Apr 23, 2018, 04:37:51 PM
Quote from: KillCrites on Apr 23, 2018, 04:22:32 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Apr 23, 2018, 02:50:33 AM
Personally I think the damage is done by this point, but the smartest move would be to go back to what made the first film work so well and that was the sense of realism at play for the time. Make a simple story/framework and get some really strong character actors in it, and make a scary science fiction film. Don't even try to dance with the weirder stuff.
Actually I want even weirder stuff than Covenant. I want Fox to get really experimental and produce the most off-the-wall insane Alien movie possible.
They have, its called Aliens vs. Predator; Requiem.. :P
Yeah, it's insanely bad.
All they need to do is more embryos.
Quote from: KillCrites on Apr 23, 2018, 04:22:32 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Apr 23, 2018, 02:50:33 AM
Personally I think the damage is done by this point, but the smartest move would be to go back to what made the first film work so well and that was the sense of realism at play for the time. Make a simple story/framework and get some really strong character actors in it, and make a scary science fiction film. Don't even try to dance with the weirder stuff.
Actually I want even weirder stuff than Covenant. I want Fox to get really experimental and produce the most off-the-wall insane Alien movie possible.
What if the company weaponised the Alien and dressed them up in Combat pants.
Quote from: Highland on Apr 23, 2018, 11:32:19 PM
Quote from: KillCrites on Apr 23, 2018, 04:22:32 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Apr 23, 2018, 02:50:33 AM
Personally I think the damage is done by this point, but the smartest move would be to go back to what made the first film work so well and that was the sense of realism at play for the time. Make a simple story/framework and get some really strong character actors in it, and make a scary science fiction film. Don't even try to dance with the weirder stuff.
Actually I want even weirder stuff than Covenant. I want Fox to get really experimental and produce the most off-the-wall insane Alien movie possible.
What if the company weaponised the Alien and dressed them up in Combat pants.
You mean something like this... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Xenos + Robots = ?
What's the comic featuring an android built to resemble a xenomorph? Smoking a cigar and chatting away... that was some funny shit.
TC
Quote from: TC on Apr 24, 2018, 08:58:00 AM
Xenos + Robots = ?
What's the comic featuring an android built to resemble a xenomorph? Smoking a cigar and chatting away... that was some funny shit.
TC
Stronghold.
Loved that series
It was actually a pretty decent series.
Doesn't get as much love I think. Especially when its surrounded by the likes of Rogue and Labyrinth
It's much better than Rogue, I reckon. And it does kind of go back on its message as the series ends but otherwise I really dig Stronghold.
True that. Could have been a higher up decision
OK. Found him.
Heeeerrrrrrrreeeee'ssss Jeri!
(https://68.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lt0sf1JfRg1qa1o5zo1_1280.jpg)
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Apr 24, 2018, 11:31:25 AM
Doesn't get as much love I think. Especially when its surrounded by the likes of Rogue and Labyrinth
It's better than both for mine.
Quote from: 0321recon on Apr 24, 2018, 12:39:00 AM
Quote from: Highland on Apr 23, 2018, 11:32:19 PM
Quote from: KillCrites on Apr 23, 2018, 04:22:32 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Apr 23, 2018, 02:50:33 AM
Personally I think the damage is done by this point, but the smartest move would be to go back to what made the first film work so well and that was the sense of realism at play for the time. Make a simple story/framework and get some really strong character actors in it, and make a scary science fiction film. Don't even try to dance with the weirder stuff.
Actually I want even weirder stuff than Covenant. I want Fox to get really experimental and produce the most off-the-wall insane Alien movie possible.
What if the company weaponised the Alien and dressed them up in Combat pants.
You mean something like this... ;D ;D ;D ;D
I'm at work, I'm not even gona click on that, there's no way back from getting caught looking at Aliens in heels.
Quote from: Highland on Apr 25, 2018, 03:03:15 AM
Quote from: 0321recon on Apr 24, 2018, 12:39:00 AM
Quote from: Highland on Apr 23, 2018, 11:32:19 PM
Quote from: KillCrites on Apr 23, 2018, 04:22:32 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Apr 23, 2018, 02:50:33 AM
Personally I think the damage is done by this point, but the smartest move would be to go back to what made the first film work so well and that was the sense of realism at play for the time. Make a simple story/framework and get some really strong character actors in it, and make a scary science fiction film. Don't even try to dance with the weirder stuff.
Actually I want even weirder stuff than Covenant. I want Fox to get really experimental and produce the most off-the-wall insane Alien movie possible.
What if the company weaponised the Alien and dressed them up in Combat pants.
You mean something like this... ;D ;D ;D ;D
I'm at work, I'm not even gona click on that, there's no way back from getting caught looking at Aliens in heels.
Oh come on, we've all been there. ;)
Quote from: SM on Apr 24, 2018, 10:31:36 PM
Quote from: Whiskeybrewer on Apr 24, 2018, 11:31:25 AM
Doesn't get as much love I think. Especially when its surrounded by the likes of Rogue and Labyrinth
It's better than both for mine.
Of the three, Labyrinth still tops it for me. Wish we'd gotten more afterwards
Aliens Hive was the first series to have a robot alien AFAIR. The cigar smoking Alien was for me a period when I walked away from Aliens. I don't need funny stuff like that in my Aliens series. The moment this series stops taking itself seriously, it just becomes trash.
How did it not take itself seriously?
synthetic-Xeno Jeri was a cool character.
and his final line was solid gold.
The cigar smoking is just a little joke at first..
but the story manages to turn it into a horribly dark thing later on.
Stronghold is GEWD.
It's dark from the outset. Nordling forces Jeri to do something he clearly doesn't want to do. The whole thing is whether machine abuse amounts to exploitation and slavery.
Quote from: SM on Apr 24, 2018, 10:31:36 PM
It's better than both for mine.
B-B-Better than Labyrinth?
B-B-Buh...
Wasted opportunity to avoid the mad scientist trope.
Labyrinth is one of the better executions of the "mad scientist trope"
(as was Covenant)
Labyrinth has better art, for me.
But Stronghold was always a favourite.
"I still know a son of a bitch when I see one."
Issue #3 of Labyrinth, by itself, is one of the best Aliens stories I've ever read.
No doubt.
But Church would've been much better is he was a bit more grey, instead of being and out and out nut.
Nah. "out and out nut" is what makes that character so fun.
I like his hints at "regret" at the end
And the reveal that his research does help people outside.
Labyrinth has the best designed aliens.
Big Chap with the Runners long limbs and digitigrade legs.
The Isolation Xenos seem very much inspired by them.
And the gore is exquisite. X)
Shout out to Inhuman Condition, one of my other faves. Good final line in that one, too.
Inhuman Condition was let down by Sam Keith. Not Female War bad, but very average.
QuoteI like his hints at "regret" at the end
Therein lies the problem. If it'd been genuine regret, it'd be a lot more interesting.
Art is Book 2 level good though.
It seems genuine enough in that moment after Church wokes up.
He's shaken by his near death and he wants someone else's opinion of what he's been doing....
...and instead of condemnation he finds nothing but approval.
And he carries on.
It's very interesting in its own right.
It's not a bad story; in fact it's among the best - it's just a bit over-rated.
SM kinda reminds me of Church.
(https://i.imgur.com/iAeHygQ.png)
Wanna see the cosmos blink, muthaf**kas?
Quote from: SM on May 13, 2018, 10:59:22 AM
Inhuman Condition was let down by Sam Keith. Not Female War bad, but very average.
Inhuman Condition has some really interesting stuff in it. Just a shame it was so damn short. But yeah...Sam Keith. I mean, in retrospect the artwork really suits in with that distorted view on reality but damn, his artwork is just awful.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 13, 2018, 12:33:39 PM
SM kinda reminds me of Church.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 13, 2018, 01:12:34 PM
https://i.imgur.com/iAeHygQ.png
In what way? his knowledge or appearance? :laugh:
That entire flashback is so great.
Quote from: SM on May 13, 2018, 10:49:37 PM
Wanna see the cosmos blink, muthaf**kas?
Have the remnants of your soul burned like a million suns yet?
Just as your pink poetry will burn.
Quote from: OpenMaw on May 14, 2018, 04:45:12 PM
That entire flashback is so great.
I still want to know what the hell they did to Quentin Clark that he couldn't stop screaming.
(https://i.imgur.com/pJVQ0fh.jpg)
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/d/d1/Oh-he-mad.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110817043543)
Whats that guys problem, sheesh :laugh:
They probably showed him the skull. >:(
Aaaannnndddd... back on topic!
Quote from: Wayne HaagWorking for that Ridley bloke again..
https://twitter.com/ankaris/status/996771422209949696 (https://twitter.com/ankaris/status/996771422209949696)
(https://assets3.thrillist.com/v1/image/1210256/size/tmg-slideshow_l.jpg)
Oh my....
It could be anything, but let's hope!
I'm expecting Merlin but...hopefully...
Why do you think it's Merlin? As far as I'm aware there's been no official word on whether he actually signed-on to direct it. Only talks with Disney.
Whereas earlier this month Scott said "I'm kind of already knee-deep [on Queen & Country]". Queen and Country is a Fox movie so I can see why they'd be keen on shooting it at their own studios in Sydney.
Or... they're actually secretly preparing to film Covenant II: The Awakening.
Or... Wayne is just taking the piss. He knows the effect a comment like that will have over here on AVP Galaxy. :laugh:
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on May 16, 2018, 05:57:49 PM
Whereas earlier this month Scott said "I'm kind of already knee-deep [on Queen & Country]". Queen and Country is a Fox movie so I can see why they'd be keen on shooting it at their own studios in Sydney.
I'd forgot about this. Yeah, that makes sense.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on May 16, 2018, 05:57:49 PM
Or... Wayne is just taking the piss. He knows the effect a comment like that will have over here on AVP Galaxy. :laugh:
Ha. He knows all about the frenzy he could create. :laugh:
I don't think Merlin is "ready to go" period.
It may be that Queen & Country because it's the last project Scott talked about but
The guess that is the sequel of Covenant remains possible, a scenario has already been written, Covenant was shot in Australia, Wayne Haag has already worked on it ... it could be a big surprise!
Although I was hoping that Carporal heard something interesting about this !! ;D
There is a great chance its a sequel to Covenant!!!
Quote from: Enoch on May 16, 2018, 09:57:19 PM
There is a great chance its a seque to Covenant!!!
I'm not ready for this. Too good to be real :D
2019 release. 40 years after alien.
Come on Fox !
40th-Anniversary is great for marketing ;) I hope they ll use that
opportunity well.
Don't get yourselves hyped up for nuffin.
Quote from: tleilaxu on May 16, 2018, 11:01:37 PM
Don't get yourselves hyped up for nuffin.
Did someone say...nuffins? I prefer blueberry.
Just the fact that it would be in the works would be such a relief.
Also, Dane Hallett change his facebook cover picture back to a xeno. Probably reading to much into these things.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 17, 2018, 01:40:30 AM
Just the fact that it would be in the works would be such a relief.
Also, Dane Hallett change his facebook cover picture back to a xeno. Probably reading to much into these things.
It would be nice to know one way or another.
Once the script is finished (last we heard Daniel Logan is writing it), they do concept art, or maybe even while the script is being written. For purely visual stuff as this, the concept art is as important as the script to pitch the movie.
There's also that concept art by whatitsname (one of the guys that has worked for Ridley) that was leaked a while ago. People were saying it was for Alien 5 but I doubt that.
https://twitter.com/ankaris/status/996879929655508992?s=19
Does that mean we're spared?
Quote from: Scorpio on May 17, 2018, 02:50:50 AM
There's also that concept art by whatitsname (one of the guys that has worked for Ridley) that was leaked a while ago. People were saying it was for Alien 5 but I doubt that.
You mean Huante's art? That was 100% for Alien 5.
Quote from: SM on May 17, 2018, 03:52:47 AM
https://twitter.com/ankaris/status/996879929655508992?s=19
I'm surprised Scified didn't manage to make a headline out of it before Wayne shot it down.
Well, someone else certainly jumped at it :laugh: http://horrorfreaknews.com/has-alien-awakening-gone-into-pre-production-concept-artists-revealing-tweets/26602
I wouldnt rule out the possibility of a sequel just jet. :)
Maybe its optimistic but I m a believer.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 17, 2018, 07:39:08 AM
Quote from: SM on May 17, 2018, 03:52:47 AM
https://twitter.com/ankaris/status/996879929655508992?s=19
I'm surprised Scified didn't manage to make a headline out of it before Wayne shot it down.
Well, someone else certainly jumped at it :laugh: http://horrorfreaknews.com/has-alien-awakening-gone-into-pre-production-concept-artists-revealing-tweets/26602
:laugh:
Well, Scott did say he didn't want Aliens in the next err... Alien film, so Wayne repudiating "space rapists" might not necessarily mean no Covenant sequel. Don't know if David would qualify as a rapist. More like a wannabe one. :P
Ask him if he's doing this new job in service of queen and country.
Maybe queen and country is just a code name for Alien Covenant sequel :laugh: :D
I don't see why Ridley wouldn't do both or any other projects at the same time, at least eventually. The guy does an amazing amount of work for his age. It's probably dependant on what the studios are interested in more, I guess. But he definitely needs to finish his prequels, imo, and I hope he doesn't give much credence to the haters.
He has his own production company called Scott Free Productions that produces lots of films and tv shows, some of which Ridley is involved some not. He gets producer credit on a lot of stuff. But he's delegating so much also, so he doesn't have to be that involved, can just organise multiple films at once that way.
Quote from: Scott WamplerIn the Comcast/Disney battle for 20th Century Fox, I am rooting for whichever company is gonna let Ridley Scott finish off that new ALIEN trilogy.
Quote from: Hanna Ines FlintYeah but when I spoke to Scott he said he hadn't come up with a good enough idea to continue the story so it's more that he doesn't know how to finish it off.
https://twitter.com/HannaFlint/status/1006999606763409408 (https://twitter.com/HannaFlint/status/1006999606763409408)
With the prequels, there wasn't a good idea to begin with.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jun 13, 2018, 08:56:52 PM
Quote from: Scott WamplerIn the Comcast/Disney battle for 20th Century Fox, I am rooting for whichever company is gonna let Ridley Scott finish off that new ALIEN trilogy.
Quote from: Hanna Ines FlintYeah but when I spoke to Scott he said he hadn't come up with a good enough idea to continue the story so it's more that he doesn't know how to finish it off.
https://twitter.com/HannaFlint/status/1006999606763409408 (https://twitter.com/HannaFlint/status/1006999606763409408)
If that's true. That's a pity to hear. Seems whatever that was written for the next chapter was shot down after Covenant's lackluster theater performance. then, I hope producer or director who liked the prequels takes over from Scott and continues the story.
Quote from: reecebomb on Jun 13, 2018, 09:52:51 PM
With the prequels, there wasn't a good idea to begin with.
Not just good ideas, but any ideas. It honestly feels like Covenant was just phoned in. It seemed like a collection of random unused ideas. A movie made simply for the sake of making another movie. David and walter fighting mortal kombat style surrounded by stone and flaming torches? Really?
Prometheus felt legit, but I don't think anyone involved had any kind of realistic idea where this was headed after. I maintain the utmost respect for Ridley. But I think it's time to hand the franchise off to somebody who does have a solid idea of where to go with it.
Quote from: Huggs on Jun 13, 2018, 10:17:19 PM
Not just good ideas, but any ideas. It honestly feels like Covenant was just phoned in. It seemed like a collection of random unused ideas. A movie made simply for the sake of making another movie. David and walter fighting mortal kombat style surrounded by stone and flaming torches? Really?
Prometheus felt legit, but I don't think anyone involved had any kind of realistic idea where this was headed after. I maintain the utmost respect for Ridley. But I think it's time to hand the franchise off to somebody who does have a solid idea of where to go with it.
It's a good idea to always have the broadstrokes laid down firmly before you move forward on a series.
Prometheus, in my opinion, should never have been intended to be "part of a whole."
Sure, have some threads you can potentially pick up on later, but it should be it's own thing in totality.
Ironically we now have an, effectively, abandoned thread in Promtheus, giving us only part of a story, and then we have a disjointed... Montage of ideas.
Prometheus did feel legit. Even if it was ultimately aimless, it felt like there was some higher brain activity going on. Covenant is like a beast. All instinct. The vestigial bits.
If we don't get the sequel, I hope we at least get the script to provide some form of closure.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jun 13, 2018, 08:56:52 PM
Quote from: Scott WamplerIn the Comcast/Disney battle for 20th Century Fox, I am rooting for whichever company is gonna let Ridley Scott finish off that new ALIEN trilogy.
Quote from: Hanna Ines FlintYeah but when I spoke to Scott he said he hadn't come up with a good enough idea to continue the story so it's more that he doesn't know how to finish it off.
https://twitter.com/HannaFlint/status/1006999606763409408 (https://twitter.com/HannaFlint/status/1006999606763409408)
Good news. Because it means that Ridley Scott still cares about this franchise and doesn't want to rush another one out. Remember that Covenant took 5 years to get made after Prometheus. Ridley will find the right story eventually.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jun 14, 2018, 03:47:25 AM
If we don't get the sequel, I hope we at least get the script to provide some form of closure.
It's unfortunate really. A good movie should be able to stand on its own feet and tell a story to completion. The original Alien movies could've ended anytime and been just fine. Their endings were finite. Just like the shark in Jaws. The enemy emerged, was defeated, and life either ends or goes on.
This trend of wanting to stretch things out over several films results in movies like covenant. You get a few token ideas and scenes with lots of useless filler stuffed in to save enough meat for the sequels. And when the next sequel doesn't get greenlit, the fans are left holding a bag full of empty promises and unrealized concepts. Leave the 10 years of character development and cliffhangers to television.
In for a penny, in for a pound, I say. Give me a story worth the telling, and I'll gladly pay to hear it.
Sad news, but on the other hand it's not like they have so much to tell to the audience anyway: we already know who the Space Jockeys are, we already know about the origin of the Alien and Weyland Yutani already exists; so what's next? because I don't think most people are dying to know the conclusion of David's journey nor that they will be aware of the difference between the biomechanical Alien and the one we saw in Covenant. I have a feeling that the Prometheus marketing campaign managed to arouse the interest of the general audiences, but this type of audience needs fast entertainment and it took them 5 years to develop the sequel. By then, these people had already lost interest in everything related to the prequel series. And I'm not joking about the general audiences. Hell, I remember that some people in the theatre were thinking that Prometheus was going to have a plot similar to the game God of War or the film Clash of the Titans :laugh:
QuoteSad news, but on the other hand it's not like they have so much to tell to the audience anyway: we already know who the Space Jockeys are, we already know about the origin of the Alien and Weyland Yutani already exists; so what's next?
Why do we need revelations?
We don't. We never did.
Didn't stop the last two films trying to be f**kin' chockers with them, tho'.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jun 13, 2018, 08:56:52 PM
Quote from: Scott WamplerIn the Comcast/Disney battle for 20th Century Fox, I am rooting for whichever company is gonna let Ridley Scott finish off that new ALIEN trilogy.
Quote from: Hanna Ines FlintYeah but when I spoke to Scott he said he hadn't come up with a good enough idea to continue the story so it's more that he doesn't know how to finish it off.
https://twitter.com/HannaFlint/status/1006999606763409408 (https://twitter.com/HannaFlint/status/1006999606763409408)
Unsurprising to me. It's time Scott leaves it to others, I think.
Can't find this interview, how are we supposed to know she talked to Scott?
https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/ridley-scott-confirms-directing-queen-says-heroine-kick-bonds-ass-exclusive-075308601.html
Well she's definitely talked to him before.
Nothing new, really, she's just paraphrasing what he's said before.
Here's the actual interview she's talking about - https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/ridley-scott-terror-rebooting-thelma-louise-whats-happening-alien-exclusive-140743735.html
Quote"We went to Covenant to perpetuate the idea and re-evolve the universe of the alien, who—I think the beast has almost run out, personally," he said during a Hollywood Reporter roundtable. "You've got to come in with something else. You've got to replace that."
However, Scott told Yahoo Movies that coming up with an idea as unique as the xenomorph is not that easy.
"In my career, which has been pretty long, there's only been, with the greatest respect for the people I've worked with, two real, real originals," he said. "Funnily enough, I came across a guy called HR Giger and if I hadn't got that monster you would not have had that movie.
"I saw the drawing – the drawing was drawn for the book, not the film – and I was so kind of taken, I flew to Switzerland where he lived because he didn't want to get the plane as he was scared of flying. I met him in Zurich at his home and I persuaded him to travel by train to come to England and live at Shepperton studios for ten months. And he did.
"It wouldn't have been the same movie," he continued. "Whilst the cast was wonderful, with Sigourney [Weaver] and Harry [Dean Stanton] and those people, but without that eighth passenger it wouldn't have been the same film."
"What I'm trying to say is that there are rarities, there are those [ideas] that occur once in the while, not that often, but when they do grab them and hang on to them."
That's an old interview. What she's saying is nothing new.
She's not claiming to, she's just re-iterating.
In the 12:05 minute of my re-released beta version of the two films: The Covenant of Prometheus, (like easter egg, or Nolan's trick), along with just the ending, the last shot, at minute 1:25 : 57, the story is closed, eliminating errors regarding the Alien-Aliens canon, and I clearly show Shaw's destiny and David's destiny, and the loss in space of the Covenant ship. Scott has gotten into a tangle so big that he does not know how to get out of it? Bullshit He never had a plan, he just wanted to steal the saga from James Cameron. It is not so difficult to understand, or to find a good idea that justifies everything.
This movie will never happen. Damage has been done. Twice.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 16, 2018, 05:33:42 PM
I'm expecting Merlin but...hopefully...
Looks like you may be right after all...
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=59372.60 (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=59372.60)
Quote from: SM on Jun 14, 2018, 06:27:09 AM
QuoteSad news, but on the other hand it's not like they have so much to tell to the audience anyway: we already know who the Space Jockeys are, we already know about the origin of the Alien and Weyland Yutani already exists; so what's next?
Why do we need revelations?
Maybe not revelations but mytology, and I have no doubt that David's narrative can develop an interesting scenario about the dangers behind the AI with everything and its philosophical themes. But the main subjet of interest that brought me to see these prequels, the Space Jockeys and the Alien, it's already cover and done.
At first, after Prometheus, there seemed to be interesting possibilities about where the mythology of this trilogy could go.
In that film there were ambiguous concepts and such elements could be interpreted in more than one way:
It's the Alien a creation of the Engineers? why they seem to be worshiping these xeno-like-beings? the Engineers are creations just like mankind and David?
Maybe the direction that Ridley Scott chose with Prometheus is not exactly my cup of tea, but at least there seemed to be an interesting potential there. But Covenant put to rest all these possibilities.
Quote from: sirgiodecaramelot on Jun 14, 2018, 02:45:41 PM
In the 12:05 minute of my re-released beta version of the two films: The Covenant of Prometheus, (like easter egg, or Nolan's trick), along with just the ending, the last shot, at minute 1:25 : 57, the story is closed, eliminating errors regarding the Alien-Aliens canon, and I clearly show Shaw's destiny and David's destiny, and the loss in space of the Covenant ship. Scott has gotten into a tangle so big that he does not know how to get out of it? Bullshit He never had a plan, he just wanted to steal the saga from James Cameron. It is not so difficult to understand, or to find a good idea that justifies everything.
What? Steal it from Cameron?
Quote from: SM on Jun 14, 2018, 10:30:50 PM
What? Steal it from Cameron?
I was unaware Cameron had been involved since 1986. If anything, Ridley stole it from Neill.
I won't knock Ridley for wanting to make alien movies. He had a solid foundation, and made Prometheus. Then he made adjustments and came up with covenant. Ridley is an experienced and accomplished enough film-maker that giving him a second bite at the apple was no big deal. But Covenant has made it clear it's time to pass the torch. 3 tries is too much.
Nah, despite everything, I say give Ridley another go. I am partly hopeful for a true revelation, and partly can't look away from a train wreck, so count me in, for more Ridley goodness, badness, or whatever he has in store...
How long should we wait before starting some kind of campaign? Emails, letters, drawings,...
I wouldn't chipping in to hire a small plane with some banner.
Ridley is the only director who would have done this. Covenant is by far the most inspiring, uplifting and triumphant Alien movie. It's a movie about creation and somehow I think the majority of its detractors still don't quite understand that.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scified.com%2Ftopics%2F2631751865249941.jpg&hash=0d98608204c4765a764c878ba127739c44be993a)
Everyone gets it. It's repeated throughout the film. It's not the least bit subtle.
The majority of detractors just don't like the film. It's almost like they have opinions of their own or something.
Quote from: sirgiodecaramelot on Jun 14, 2018, 02:45:41 PM
Scott has gotten into a tangle so big that he does not know how to get out of it? Bullshit He never had a plan, he just wanted to steal the saga from James Cameron. It is not so difficult to understand, or to find a good idea that justifies everything.
He has a plan; it's just not one you like. And it doesn't need justifying. Besides, having a plan is good, but there's a lot more factors involved with the movie industry which affects the outcome.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 14, 2018, 11:21:09 PM
Ridley is the only director who would have done this. Covenant is by far the most inspiring, uplifting and triumphant Alien movie. It's a movie about creation and somehow I think the majority of its detractors still don't quite understand that.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scified.com%2Ftopics%2F2631751865249941.jpg&hash=0d98608204c4765a764c878ba127739c44be993a)
Everyone understood it.
Perhaps they just don't care for creation by the bad guy that results in the destruction of the good guys?
That part of the film is something I adore tbh
Quote from: PsyKore on Jun 14, 2018, 11:48:11 PM
He has a plan; it's just not one you like. And it doesn't need justifying. Besides, having a plan is good, but there's a lot more factors involved with the movie industry which affects the outcome.
Yeah, he really clearly doesn't though. He's waffled hardcore before, during, and after each of these films as to what he wants to do and where he wants to take it, and Covenant VERY CLEARLY torpedos a lot of what went on in Prometheus.
Quote from: SM on Jun 14, 2018, 11:50:34 PM
Everyone understood it.
Perhaps they just don't care for creation by the bad guy that results in the destruction of the good guys?
Personally I just hate the whole f**king creation myth aspect in it's entirety and it has no business being in my alien movie. It's like Pinneapple on pizza, or wearing white after labor day.
Did not like the ending.
Or pineapple on pizza.
I didn't like the ending but I love pineapple on pizza.
"Don't let the bed bugs bite."
Is the best ending to an Alien film.
That was 'Exactly what I'm going to do to you' level moustache twirling.
Quote from: The Old One on Jun 15, 2018, 12:03:56 AM
"Don't let the bed bugs bite."
Is the best ending to an Alien film.
I mean, okay.
I honestly thought Alien and Alien 3 had far stronger endings. Alien ends with a mystery, just an air of romance, and a whole lot of relieved tension. Alien 3 is bittersweet, strangely optimistic, and a great button for a great trilogy.
Quote from: SM on Jun 15, 2018, 12:08:27 AM
That was 'Exactly what I'm going to do to you' level moustache twirling.
Or as I like to call it, character assassination. Jesus that scene ruined David for me. I so wanted Walter to Rip his head back off and beat his body to a pulp. "YEAH! F**K HIM UP WALTER! YEAHHH!!!" *Cue X-men cartoon theme*
Yep, Alien has a good ending, A3 has a fantastic ending. But I have the most fun with Covenants'.
David is what makes Covenant worthwhile of course.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 14, 2018, 11:58:01 PM
Quote from: PsyKore on Jun 14, 2018, 11:48:11 PM
He has a plan; it's just not one you like. And it doesn't need justifying. Besides, having a plan is good, but there's a lot more factors involved with the movie industry which affects the outcome.
Yeah, he really clearly doesn't though. He's waffled hardcore before, during, and after each of these films as to what he wants to do and where he wants to take it, and Covenant VERY CLEARLY torpedos a lot of what went on in Prometheus.
Yeah, he does waffle on now and then but that doesn't mean he hasn't got a plan or a proper direction in mind. Reactions to his films do clearly affect where things go in the future however.
Plans change constantly right up until a film is released, and Alien is not one man's vision.
Films are always a collaborative effort, no matter what the auteur says. Even if people as a group are working to support the Director's vision.
It's never entirely the one person.
The ending was hardly the problem with Covenant. It was the hand waving chestburstet. Hello my baby, hello my honey, honey my heart's on fire....
Lol, that's also one of the few great scenes.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jun 15, 2018, 12:44:19 AM
The ending was hardly the problem with Covenant. It was the hand waving chestburstet. Hello my baby, hello my honey, honey my heart's on fire....
The ending was probably one of the only things I didn't like. Very mean.
Quote from: SM on Jun 15, 2018, 12:46:58 AM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jun 15, 2018, 12:44:19 AM
The ending was hardly the problem with Covenant. It was the hand waving chestburstet. Hello my baby, hello my honey, honey my heart's on fire....
The ending was probably one of the only things I didn't like. Very mean.
But he was very gentle though. :)
Rooting for David is all I can salvage from these prequels.
The whole colony is about to get fassbender'd. There are worse ways to go.
True. He could bore you to death reciting Ozymandias for the 5723rd time, and insisting it was written by Byron.
Quote from: SM on Jun 15, 2018, 01:13:01 AM
True. He could bore you to death reciting Ozymandias for the 5723rd time, and insisting it was written by Byron.
Don't forget the flute which winds up in the oddest places. ;)
By the time they reach Origae 6, he'll be reciting Ozzy Osbourne and saying it's Bea Arthur.
:laugh:
It's not so far fetched.
I read it in Fassbender's voice.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 15, 2018, 02:28:39 AM
I read it in Fassbender's voice.
Just imagine him quoting the chorus to Steel Panther's "Weenie Ride".
And had Walter walked in on David playing that tune on his flute, I would have died. :D
"Try this. I'll do the fingering..."
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 15, 2018, 03:22:37 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdeK7rndLtQ
"Try this. I'll do the fingering..."
That would've been fantastic. It's like Mario Party: existential edition.
Quote from: SiL on Jun 15, 2018, 12:02:42 AM
I didn't like the ending but I love pineapple on pizza.
Begone from here, demon! I'm opposite on both of those.
That said - I've done with Scott. As much as I enjoyed the over all experience of Covenant, I dislike the direction it's going and I'd rather Scott not be given a chance to do more damage to the series. Hand the series off to someone else, please.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jun 15, 2018, 12:44:19 AM
The ending was hardly the problem with Covenant. It was the hand waving chestburstet. Hello my baby, hello my honey, honey my heart's on fire....
Initially I hated that scene (and I'm still not sure about it) but after Muthur pointed out the similarities to this Paradise Lost artwork I kind of appreciated the intent behind it a little more -
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/ParadiseLButts1.jpg/461px-ParadiseLButts1.jpg)
Sequel about Planet David without Alien in front of the title, made by Ridley Scott.
New Alien flick from someone else too.
I wouldn't be opposed to Ridley going off and doing his side-quel stuff - but I doubt he'd even entertain the notion of trying to slot in with whatever anyone else was doing with the Alien series.
The Egg on the Pizza thread continues here - https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=60082.90
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on May 17, 2018, 07:39:08 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on May 17, 2018, 02:50:50 AM
There's also that concept art by whatitsname (one of the guys that has worked for Ridley) that was leaked a while ago. People were saying it was for Alien 5 but I doubt that.
You mean Huante's art? That was 100% for Alien 5.
Quote from: SM on May 17, 2018, 03:52:47 AM
https://twitter.com/ankaris/status/996879929655508992?s=19
I'm surprised Scified didn't manage to make a headline out of it before Wayne shot it down.
Well, someone else certainly jumped at it :laugh: http://horrorfreaknews.com/has-alien-awakening-gone-into-pre-production-concept-artists-revealing-tweets/26602
Well...one month later... http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/alien-awakening---is-covenant-sequel-secretly-production-already :laugh: And Wayne took the tweet down too.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 20, 2018, 05:43:44 PM
Well...one month later... http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/alien-awakening---is-covenant-sequel-secretly-production-already :laugh: And Wayne took the tweet down too.
Nothing like an article title that ends with a question mark.
"You are not gonna believe what Wayne tweeted next!"
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jun 20, 2018, 05:43:44 PM
Well...one month later... http://www.alien-covenant.com/news/alien-awakening---is-covenant-sequel-secretly-production-already :laugh: And Wayne took the tweet down too.
It didn't seem to help saying,
no he's
not working on an Alien film? Or didn't they get the "space rapists" bit? ???
Anyway, Wayne's most likely working on Queen & Country which is busy with casting now as well. My guess is that Scott will do that hot off Merlin which begins filming in October.
Just to drive the point home...
https://twitter.com/ankaris/status/1009609359142187009?s=19
:laugh:
Ah, Scified... This appeared on their forums a few weeks back...
Spoilers for Solo
Spoiler
Warn people about spoilers - by putting a big picture of the spoiler on your main forum where it can't be avoided. (http://www.scified.com/news/solo-a-star-wars-story-surprise-cameo-explained-spoilers)
Quote from: SM on Jun 21, 2018, 06:04:44 AM
:laugh:
Ah, Scified... This appeared on their forums a few weeks back...
Spoilers for Solo
Spoiler
Warn people about spoilers - by putting a big picture of the spoiler on your main forum where it can't be avoided. (http://www.scified.com/news/solo-a-star-wars-story-surprise-cameo-explained-spoilers)
Seems to be a trend lately.
Bloody Disgusting does stuff like that often. Instead of a neutral picture (maybe a logo of the movie) and a title like "New details released on movie x"
they show a picture of the details when they can, and mention those details in the title. "This happens in this upcoming movie and here's a picture too, read more by clicking on either"
Bunch of bastards.
Just listened to the Yutani podcast regarding this subject. they mention that it's becoming apparent that some have to debunk the crap scified is posting. For example, someone in bluray.com had posted their story of Awakening going to pre-production and people there were getting hopeful. I had to burst their bubble with Hagg tweet debunking their article. It's sad they fool the fanbase and don't even have the decency to write a redaction.
BTW, sucks that Mr. H was a target of them. He's a good chap.
Mr H cracked the shits with Scified for some clickbait at the end of last year.
They're getting quite uppity about it over on that post. "It'd be nice if he'd said no ages ago." ::) I'd even told Picard as soon as I saw him sharing this on FB.
I dunno you guys. They cancelled all of the upcoming Star Wars movies because so many fans hated The Last Jedi that no one went to see SOLO, so it only makes sense that Covenant's sequel would be cancelled because so many fan hated that.
This is serious; Im prepared to put up the money to remake Alien Covenant.
If we remake Alien Covenant we can save the franchise.
...Am I right?
If you mean save the franchise by turning it into mediocrity, then yes.
Quote from: CainsSon on Jun 23, 2018, 07:32:47 PM
I dunno you guys. They cancelled all of the upcoming Star Wars movies because so many fans hated The Last Jedi that no one went to see SOLO, so it only makes sense that Covenant's sequel would be cancelled because so many fan hated that.
This is serious; Im prepared to put up the money to remake Alien Covenant.
If we remake Alien Covenant we can save the franchise.
...Am I right?
I'm not sure about a remake but yeah, the last prequel it's almost resting in peace.
On the other hand...how about a reboot of the whole thing
¿? (or even a new beginning for AVP), that or just go back to the main timeline.
Quote from: CainsSon on Jun 23, 2018, 07:32:47 PM
I dunno you guys. They cancelled all of the upcoming Star Wars movies because so many fans hated The Last Jedi that no one went to see SOLO, so it only makes sense that Covenant's sequel would be cancelled because so many fan hated that.
This is serious; Im prepared to put up the money to remake Alien Covenant.
If we remake Alien Covenant we can save the franchise.
...Am I right?
Think only the spin-offs are cancelled.
They're never gonna stop making Star Wars movies, too much money involved.
The hate for Covenant wasn't as big as the hate for The Last Jedi.
No one is gonna fund a Covenant remake. Too much of a risky investment.
Would be better to put some decent funding in the sequel, create an awesome Planet David type movie and end the prequel series on a high note.
The audience for Covenant was as big as the audience for Last Jedi.
Apparently they haven't cancelled anything. (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/lucasfilm-licking-wounds-but-not-halting-star-wars-development-1122655)
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jun 24, 2018, 12:14:51 AM
Quote from: CainsSon on Jun 23, 2018, 07:32:47 PM
I dunno you guys. They cancelled all of the upcoming Star Wars movies because so many fans hated The Last Jedi that no one went to see SOLO, so it only makes sense that Covenant's sequel would be cancelled because so many fan hated that.
This is serious; Im prepared to put up the money to remake Alien Covenant.
If we remake Alien Covenant we can save the franchise.
...Am I right?
Think only the spin-offs are cancelled.
They're never gonna stop making Star Wars movies, too much money involved.
The hate for Covenant wasn't as big as the hate for The Last Jedi.
No one is gonna fund a Covenant remake. Too much of a risky investment.
Would be better to put some decent funding in the sequel, create an awesome Planet David type movie and end the prequel series on a high note.
I think it's more about box office. However, a remake it could mean more footage with Shaw and the Engineers or the Alien as something ancient instead of David's creation.
Quote from: SM on Jun 24, 2018, 12:21:57 AM
The audience for Covenant was as big as the audience for Last Jedi.
Apparently they haven't cancelled anything. (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/lucasfilm-licking-wounds-but-not-halting-star-wars-development-1122655)
Just a rumor then? nice 8)
Don't really need a reboot, honestly.
Just go back to basics. Isolation is the proof. Go back to basics.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2018, 12:45:23 AM
Don't really need a reboot, honestly.
Just go back to basics. Isolation is the proof. Go back to basics.
You mean the horror house set in space? with human environments that are as frightening and claustrophobic as the Derelict itself, and the monster being handled like a intelligent assassin instead of the space velociraptor?
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2018, 12:45:23 AM
Don't really need a reboot, honestly.
Just go back to basics. Isolation is the proof. Go back to basics.
Agreed. A reboot would be terrible for
Alien and would just kill it off completely. The cultural legacy cannot be remapped. Other franchises have tried and it always fails miserably. Build and correct on what already exists instead of trying to erase history. Otherwise it just creates a mental mess for the casual moviegoers who don't know what way is up. There's issues with Resurrection, Prometheus and Covenant but it's not
that bad that it requires the entire franchise to start again from scratch.
There's more than enough elements of the series to make a great new addition with.
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Jun 24, 2018, 12:22:37 AMI think it's more about box office. However, a remake it could mean more footage with Shaw and the Engineers or the Alien as something ancient instead of David's creation.
You know I'd love a perfect remake with Shaw, Engineers and without the xeno. I just don't see it happen. It's too late.
Better finish up the story while there still a chance and Scott's still alive. There's plenty to the Planet David concept to create something that most people can appreciate.
After that it's probably back to regular Alien flicks. Until someone makes another Prometheus type movie decades later, kinda like they did with Blade Runner.
There's nothing to finish, really.
David has his experiments and his guinea pigs, and a destination. We can assume they all met a grim fate.
Honestly if you were going to give the series a soft reboot, Isolation was the right way to do it. New character, room to breath, and a very strong earned emotional connection to the past. That scene where Amanda hears her mother's voice is fffffff... Man. That was well done. Weaver delivered the goods. The writing wasn't overblown. The actress for Amanda did great.
You don't need to close off anything with Covenant. They already torpedo the big questions at the start of Covenant. they threw out Shaw's story completely. There's nothing to carry on. I don't give a shit to see David go anywhere at this point because they chucked the complexity out of his character entirely by the time the husks that are supposed to be characters meet up with him in Covenant. He's just evil mad scientist robot. He could have been so much more. If they had kept Shaw alive, they could have really taken that relationship to some complex and interesting places. So yeah I don't see holding onto whatever Scott has planned. It's obvious he can't do this franchise anymore.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2018, 01:43:47 AM
There's nothing to finish, really.
What happens to David? Does he die or does he live on?
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2018, 01:43:47 AMDavid has his experiments and his guinea pigs, and a destination. We can assume they all met a grim fate.
We can assume but I'd still love to see it.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2018, 01:43:47 AM
I don't give a shit to see David go anywhere at this point...
Well, there you have it. You don't give a shit. You're not a fan of the prequels, that's your right. But some of us are fans and do care.
At this point I prefer poetry quoting androids, Engineers and black goo over the beloved space bug.
I prefer quality writing.
I also prefer when creative persons don't hijack an existing franchise to do whatever they want with it.
Ridley Scott could very easily have created a new science fiction film series with David at the epicenter.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2018, 02:54:22 AM
I prefer quality writing.
I also prefer when creative persons don't hijack an existing franchise to do whatever they want with it.
Ridley Scott could very easily have created a new science fiction film series with David at the epicenter.
Coulda shoulda woulda. All too late now.
Doesn't mean the prequel fans don't deserve a sequel.
I just wanna chime in I love Covenant and it's given me so much more to ponder over in Prometheus and the original Quadrilogy. That is all :D
I want more movies to analyse, even if Ridley Scott decides to produce multiple short films like the ones he does for the lead up to the actual movies I will take it.
The prequels give me a solid understanding of the franchise philosophy in a way I had never considered before and it's made me more passionate than ever.
I'm up for another prequel from Scott. Let him wrap it up. Why not?
You know, David might still be alive around Ripley 8's time. That could be an interesting showdown. He could try to use the same technology to bring back Weyland, his Master...
I'd prefer they leave David's story open-ended if only to preserve a sliver of doubt that he had anything to do with the derelict on LV-426 and its cargo.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jun 24, 2018, 03:57:46 AM
...
You know, David might still be alive around Ripley 8's time. That could be an interesting showdown. He could try to use the same technology to bring back Weyland, his Master...
I like your idea. A sequel - not a prequel - that wraps up David's story by taking place in Ripley 8's era.
Not sure about resurrecting Weyland though. Didn't David end up despising him? Unless David's goal is to exact his revenge.
I also have reservations about Sig Weaver as an action hero at her age. Maybe her role would be more of a cameo, like Harrison Ford in BR 2049.
So an additional lead character then. Call? Or would the story be overrun by androids yet again? OK, so someone new...
TC
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 24, 2018, 05:20:07 AM
I'd prefer they leave David's story open-ended if only to preserve a sliver of doubt that he had anything to do with the derelict on LV-426 and its cargo.
Yeah, the prequels have done enough damage to the lore by implying it was all about humanity and mad science.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2018, 05:23:01 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jun 24, 2018, 05:20:07 AM
I'd prefer they leave David's story open-ended if only to preserve a sliver of doubt that he had anything to do with the derelict on LV-426 and its cargo.
Yeah, the prequels have done enough damage to the lore by implying it was all about humanity and mad science.
He should have done what Cameron did with Avatar: start a new lore. At least it's better than
a story without an identity the Alien prequel which isn't a prequel at all, sharing strands of Alien's DNA while it's exploring its own mythology and ideas...which is utterly pointless right now, as it has the Alien shoehorned in its sequel anyway.
I really do like the idea that Ridley Scott mentions in Covenant's commentary though that- David is perfect AI and created an equal AI in the Alien.
It would never sit right with me if the Alien was a natural creature, native to some ecosystem.
Considering some of the species that have evolved on Earth - I don't see any reason the Alien couldn't have been natural.
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/308aa4483540eb3ca2134b346a7f7982/tumblr_ov0yorqpqa1sas7dso1_540.gif)
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/98b9d0118c2cc76edc920bd72f0e2234/tumblr_ov0yorqpqa1sas7dso2_r1_540.gif)
Me waiting for the next Alien film.
Quote from: CainsSon on Jun 23, 2018, 07:32:47 PM
I dunno you guys. They cancelled all of the upcoming Star Wars movies because so many fans hated The Last Jedi that no one went to see SOLO, so it only makes sense that Covenant's sequel would be cancelled because so many fan hated that.
This is serious; Im prepared to put up the money to remake Alien Covenant.
If we remake Alien Covenant we can save the franchise.
...Am I right?
Everybody knew right from the beginning that Solo was going to f**king bomb.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2018, 01:43:47 AM
There's nothing to finish, really.
David has his experiments and his guinea pigs, and a destination. We can assume they all met a grim fate.
Honestly if you were going to give the series a soft reboot, Isolation was the right way to do it. New character, room to breath, and a very strong earned emotional connection to the past. That scene where Amanda hears her mother's voice is fffffff... Man. That was well done. Weaver delivered the goods. The writing wasn't overblown. The actress for Amanda did great.
You don't need to close off anything with Covenant. They already torpedo the big questions at the start of Covenant. they threw out Shaw's story completely. There's nothing to carry on. I don't give a shit to see David go anywhere at this point because they chucked the complexity out of his character entirely by the time the husks that are supposed to be characters meet up with him in Covenant. He's just evil mad scientist robot. He could have been so much more. If they had kept Shaw alive, they could have really taken that relationship to some complex and interesting places. So yeah I don't see holding onto whatever Scott has planned. It's obvious he can't do this franchise anymore.
Lol sure, let's get more of the same shit, more nostalgia pandering so the boomers on this forum can save the franchise.
Quote from: muthur9000 on Jun 24, 2018, 03:55:46 AM
I just wanna chime in I love Covenant and it's given me so much more to ponder over in Prometheus and the original Quadrilogy. That is all :D
I want more movies to analyse, even if Ridley Scott decides to produce multiple short films like the ones he does for the lead up to the actual movies I will take it.
The prequels give me a solid understanding of the franchise philosophy in a way I had never considered before and it's made me more passionate than ever.
Same. Ever since I was a kid I was fascinated by this creature, and Covenant made me love it even more.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 24, 2018, 03:21:26 PM
Lol sure, let's get more of the same shit, more nostalgia pandering so the boomers on this forum can save the franchise.
Let's not put words in my mouth, shall we?
The series is like a tour guide going "Let's go this way, no wait, this way. No, stop. Let's turn around here..." It's a muddled mess.
Simply moving away and going to a simpler story with new characters and building something else from that would be the better route to go. If you want to build it out from a new foundation, go for it. The problem with the prequel movies is that they started huge and had no idea where they were going.
Quote from: SM on Jun 24, 2018, 11:57:38 AM
Considering some of the species that have evolved on Earth - I don't see any reason the Alien couldn't have been natural.
Was never keen on the idea that it was an manufactured organism. Even in the context of the Derelict being a "space bomber" I always preferred the idea that the Jockey's had somehow cultivated or harvested them from a natural source. Like the alien-species equivalent to Antrhax.
Just thinking about the possibilities for an alien eco-system that this creature came from. Breaking down all of it's attributes could tell us so much about the environment it came from.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2018, 03:57:46 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 24, 2018, 11:57:38 AM
Considering some of the species that have evolved on Earth - I don't see any reason the Alien couldn't have been natural.
Was never keen on the idea that it was an manufactured organism. Even in the context of the Derelict being a "space bomber" I always preferred the idea that the Jockey's had somehow cultivated or harvested them from a natural source. Like the alien-species equivalent to Antrhax.
Just thinking about the possibilities for an alien eco-system that this creature came from. Breaking down all of it's attributes could tell us so much about the environment it came from.
Lame. No thanks.
Quote from: The Old One on Jun 24, 2018, 05:32:53 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2018, 03:57:46 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 24, 2018, 11:57:38 AM
Considering some of the species that have evolved on Earth - I don't see any reason the Alien couldn't have been natural.
Was never keen on the idea that it was an manufactured organism. Even in the context of the Derelict being a "space bomber" I always preferred the idea that the Jockey's had somehow cultivated or harvested them from a natural source. Like the alien-species equivalent to Antrhax.
Just thinking about the possibilities for an alien eco-system that this creature came from. Breaking down all of it's attributes could tell us so much about the environment it came from.
Lame. No thanks.
I guess we agree to disagree in this one, as it's not lame at all. Yeah, maybe such concept lacks philosophical or existential implications, but on the other hand, we have to remember that this is science fiction and as such; it's not so bad some real science in the mix: an extraterrestrial organism that incorporates genetic characteristics of its host and has molecular acid in its blood.
"Parker: It's got a wonderful defense mechanism. You don't dare kill it."Why molecular acid? is it a defense mechanism? against who or what? maybe the homeworld of this extraterrestrial being is so hostile and dangerous, that the only way to survive is to evolve biologically speaking to become a shapeshifting parasite that steals genetic characteristics of its predators to be at the top of its game, cos there are worse things than xenomorphs in such ecosystem. Also, Ash describes the creature as a survivor:
"Ash: You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? The perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility.
Lambert: You admire it.
Ash: I admire its purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality."
Hell, it doesn't even have to be devoid of those kind of questions. Jurassic Park does a great job of discussing nature, control, ecosystems, evolution.
I just think of all the HR Giger artwork that could have been minded for landscapes, creatures. There could have been a whole society of creatures on Planet Alien.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2018, 03:57:46 PM
The problem with the prequel movies is that they started huge and had no idea where they were going.
So what? Discovery writing is not inherently bad. Sure, it's a mess, but I'd much rather have a flawed mess that REALLY delivered on some parts than plodding mediocrity all the way through.
Quote from: Crazy Shrimp on Jun 24, 2018, 07:10:24 PM
I guess we agree to disagree in this one, as it's not lame at all. Yeah, maybe such concept lacks philosophical or existential implications, but on the other hand, we have to remember that this is science fiction and as such; it's not so bad some real science in the mix: an extraterrestrial organism that incorporates genetic characteristics of its host and has molecular acid in its blood.
Lol, there's no such thing as "molecular acid". They literally just prepended a sciency sounding word. Every f**king acid is "molecular" ;D
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 24, 2018, 08:46:05 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2018, 03:57:46 PM
The problem with the prequel movies is that they started huge and had no idea where they were going.
So what? Discovery writing is not inherently bad. Sure, it's a mess, but I'd much rather have a flawed mess that REALLY delivered on some parts than plodding mediocrity all the way through.
Fine, but the prequels don't deliver on jack shit. one movie is aiming North East, and covenant jumps over the divider to head South West. Both essentially take turns trying to punch Alien, but since the movie is ten times their better, they just end up hurting their metaphorical hands.
No, you're right, discovery writing isn't inherently bad, except when you're dealing with a really complicated and big story that is supposed to encapsulate a series of films. In that instance you should be working out the broad details before you actually commit to a screenplay, so that you can actually etch out some kind of an arc and progression from film to film.
I'd rather we had something coherent and masterfully crafted.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2018, 09:40:40 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 24, 2018, 08:46:05 PM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 24, 2018, 03:57:46 PM
The problem with the prequel movies is that they started huge and had no idea where they were going.
So what? Discovery writing is not inherently bad. Sure, it's a mess, but I'd much rather have a flawed mess that REALLY delivered on some parts than plodding mediocrity all the way through.
Fine, but the prequels don't deliver on jack shit. one movie is aiming North East, and covenant jumps over the divider to head South West. Both essentially take turns trying to punch Alien, but since the movie is ten times their better, they just end up hurting their metaphorical hands.
No, you're right, discovery writing isn't inherently bad, except when you're dealing with a really complicated and big story that is supposed to encapsulate a series of films. In that instance you should be working out the broad details before you actually commit to a screenplay, so that you can actually etch out some kind of an arc and progression from film to film.
I'd rather we had something coherent and masterfully crafted.
Speak for yourself. ;)
Didn't seem like it. Not that it really matters, ha.
OpenMaw speaks for me on this subject as well.
For me the prequels presented ideas that were perfect for expanding the Alien mythos, some were executed well others were not.
The first scene in Covenant is solid gold, as is the casting for Peter Weyland and his first android.
Landing on a foreign planet without taking the proper precautions is not. For every good idea executed well there is a parallel execution of poor quality.
As it was explained in the novelisation, it was not possible to take the proper precautions to what they were up against. It was a calculated risk type situation.
Quote from: Evanus on Jun 24, 2018, 11:21:46 PM
Didn't seem like it. Not that it really matters, ha.
If I speak with any level of authority in my words it is only because I feel very strongly about these things. So let me just take this opportunity to extend an olive branch to everyone else in the thread. If you like Prometheus and/or Covenant, the ideas they explore... Hey, i'm truly happy you find something of merit in them, and that they bring you stimulation on both an intellectual and entertainment level.
Heck, I miss the long discussions that were going on in here back in 2011-2014 with people like Cvalda and Deuterium and the others that have since left us. :(
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 25, 2018, 01:55:05 AM
As it was explained in the novelisation, it was not possible to take the proper precautions to what they were up against. It was a calculated risk type situation.
That doesn't make sense. They have space suits. they should be wearing space suits, or at the very least proper hazmat equipment.
And the argument that if they had behaved intelligently we wouldn't have a movie is stupid on so many levels. You should never write down to your audience and you should never craft scenarios where stupidity is the only way through. Yes, sometimes having a dumb character do dumb things is effective... But it should not be the standard course. They could have just as easily had the alien organisms penetrate the suit.
Hell, one of the few instances of blink-and-you'll-miss-it horror in Prometheus is when the Hammerpede breaks Milburn's arm and get's inside his suit and he's screaming "It's in my suit, it's in my suit, it's in my suit!"
For me the best horror is when our protagonists do everything they can and it's still not enough. A movie like The Thing is a movie that really nails this idea.
Or, in Alien, the mistakes made are very clearly human and there's more going on. IE: Dallas and Lambert wanting back inside, and Ash overriding Ripley. There's a lot going on with each character. Ripley is being super by the book. Dallas is basically disillusioned and is more concerned with immediate loyalty than to the letter of the law, and Ash has ulterior motives. Put em together and you get a very natural conflict.
You don't need to write characters as dum-dums to get horrifying stuff. :)
What is the point of wearing spacesuits, when it's breathable atmosphere and no pathogens detected?
To avert or at least attempt to avert exactly what happened to Ledward, as a precaution.
Perhaps you could have a situation where inside the Derelict, the way it's crashed that someone trips and falls cracks their helmet and the spores find a way inside or they get stuck and something is threatening to crush them so there's no choice but to remove their headgear. There's multiple ways you could still have the crew get infected without making them idiots.
The harder question to answer would be how do you get them to take off their spacesuit stuff so that after that initial threat has been established so Ridley can have his haunted house in space aesthetic within the Necropolis and elsewhere.
And then people would moan about 'y not the helmets made out of strnger space glass?'
Quote from: SM on Jun 26, 2018, 12:36:47 AM
And then people would moan about 'y not the helmets made out of strnger space glass?'
Ideally it would be made of strong stuff and you wouldn't have to resort to tripping and falling.
It's not an easy question to answer.
But I do think it's possible.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 26, 2018, 12:19:16 AM
What is the point of wearing spacesuits, when it's breathable atmosphere and no pathogens detected?
You can't detect things that are completely unknown. Taking an air sample might not reveal everything.
You shouldn't take your helmet off in the alien environment. Breathable does not equal safe. It was bad writing.
Quote from: SM on Jun 26, 2018, 12:36:47 AM
And then people would moan about 'y not the helmets made out of strnger space glass?'
Take the Ear scene. Guy goes to take a rest. Bumps the pod. The cloud of particles float around his suit. He sits there. Now have the pathogen land on the suit. Very close up FX shot, we can see the weaving of the suit, the organism burns a microscopic hole in it and burrows it's way in.
'y not strnger space suit'
No. :)
The iffy bit is getting Ledward infected in a believable way that doesn't make him an idiot and the other sod.
As for having the rest of the crew helmetless to push that gothic horror, naturalist aesthetic; you could have that when the lander was destroyed it was also carrying the supply of oxygen. When they reach the Necropolis they're running out of air in their suits and have no choice but to take them off or suffocate.
That would have actually made a great scene. We'd have the crew surrounded by breathable air, but they're hanging on to the last moment where they can use their own air. Then they have to have the inevitable discussion and they take off their helmets..
Quote from: The Old One on Jun 26, 2018, 01:31:20 AM
...
As for having the rest of the crew helmetless to push that gothic horror, naturalist aesthetic; you could have that when the lander was destroyed it was also carrying the supply of oxygen. When they reach the Necropolis they're running out of air in their suits and have no choice but to take them off or suffocate.
This would have been good. ;D
Or something like it. We've seen this idea played out in
Red Planet. Remember - Val Kilmer, Tom Sizemore, Benjamin Bratt, et al crash land on Mars and set off on a hike to find refuge in a life support habitat before their space suits' oxygen runs out. They're gasping for breath when at the last second one of them cracks open his helmet, because, hell, why not? (Only to discover the air is breathable).
But what if the Covenant lander crew already know there is a mutagen in the atmosphere that will infect anyone that breathes it, but one of them, close to asphyxiation, does so anyway. Luckily David arrives in time and prevents the mutations by giving everyone a last minute inoculation. No one can refuse, but then, they don't really know what exactly was in the drug they were just administered and have to take David's word that there are no harmful side effects. Mwuhahahaha...
TC
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 26, 2018, 01:13:40 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 26, 2018, 12:19:16 AM
What is the point of wearing spacesuits, when it's breathable atmosphere and no pathogens detected?
You can't detect things that are completely unknown. Taking an air sample might not reveal everything.
You shouldn't take your helmet off in the alien environment. Breathable does not equal safe. It was bad writing.
Yeah let's just get what, 10 people to wear big expensive unwieldy suits in a movie that's already on a budget. Also, let's remake Aliens to make everybody wear a hazmat suit in case of an airborne pathogen (very realistic given the sudden silence of the colony). Or even better, why not just send a ship full of androids? Worst writing ever! Travel back in time to 1986 to hand the reins of the franchise over to a director who knows how to handle the it!
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 26, 2018, 07:33:56 AM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 26, 2018, 01:13:40 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 26, 2018, 12:19:16 AM
What is the point of wearing spacesuits, when it's breathable atmosphere and no pathogens detected?
You can't detect things that are completely unknown. Taking an air sample might not reveal everything.
You shouldn't take your helmet off in the alien environment. Breathable does not equal safe. It was bad writing.
Yeah let's just get what, 10 people to wear big expensive unwieldy suits in a movie that's already on a budget. Also, let's remake Aliens to make everybody wear a hazmat suit in case of an airborne pathogen (very realistic given the sudden silence of the colony). Or even better, why not just send a ship full of androids? Worst writing ever! Travel back in time to 1986 to hand the reins of the franchise over to a director who knows how to handle the it!
I agree with this. Why is it a problem for the crew to enter the atmosphere without suits in Covenant but perfectly fine in Aliens?
Also, no one got infected in Prometheus because they were not wearing a spacesuit.
Quote from: No Name on Jun 26, 2018, 11:28:53 AM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 26, 2018, 07:33:56 AM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 26, 2018, 01:13:40 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 26, 2018, 12:19:16 AM
What is the point of wearing spacesuits, when it's breathable atmosphere and no pathogens detected?
You can't detect things that are completely unknown. Taking an air sample might not reveal everything.
You shouldn't take your helmet off in the alien environment. Breathable does not equal safe. It was bad writing.
Yeah let's just get what, 10 people to wear big expensive unwieldy suits in a movie that's already on a budget. Also, let's remake Aliens to make everybody wear a hazmat suit in case of an airborne pathogen (very realistic given the sudden silence of the colony). Or even better, why not just send a ship full of androids? Worst writing ever! Travel back in time to 1986 to hand the reins of the franchise over to a director who knows how to handle the it!
I agree with this. Why is it a problem for the crew to enter the atmosphere without suits in Covenant but perfectly fine in Aliens?
"They've been there for over 20 years."
"Atmosphere processors that make the air breathable takes decades."
That's why.
Quote from: No Name on Jun 26, 2018, 11:28:53 AMWhy is it a problem for the crew to enter the atmosphere without suits in Covenant but perfectly fine in Aliens?
Because in Aliens there had been people living in said atmosphere for 20 years, people who maintained contact with Earth and who included medical doctors and scientists.
Quote from: Kane's other son on Jun 26, 2018, 11:35:59 AMAlso, no one got infected in Prometheus because they were not wearing a spacesuit.
Lucky them. Perhaps the Covenant crew decided that that's all the proof that they needed.
R.I.P. They were a smart lot.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 26, 2018, 01:13:40 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 26, 2018, 12:19:16 AM
What is the point of wearing spacesuits, when it's breathable atmosphere and no pathogens detected?
You can't detect things that are completely unknown. Taking an air sample might not reveal everything.
You shouldn't take your helmet off in the alien environment. Breathable does not equal safe. It was bad writing.
Quote from: SM on Jun 26, 2018, 12:36:47 AM
And then people would moan about 'y not the helmets made out of strnger space glass?'
Take the Ear scene. Guy goes to take a rest. Bumps the pod. The cloud of particles float around his suit. He sits there. Now have the pathogen land on the suit. Very close up FX shot, we can see the weaving of the suit, the organism burns a microscopic hole in it and burrows it's way in.
I agree with this, you can still find ways to infect someone without them doing something stupid. When a smart and careful person bites it, the threat is more greater.
Quote from: SM on Jun 26, 2018, 01:29:05 AM
'y not strnger space suit'
You have to admit that its better to hear that question than "why aren't they wearing space/hazmat suits" Also such suits are only designed to give oxygen to its wearer, I don't think they would be designed for serious impact (I think) or any other unknown hazards. In Prometheus, Fifield's helmet gets melted in and allowed the black goo to infect him.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jun 26, 2018, 03:56:33 AM
That would have actually made a great scene. We'd have the crew surrounded by breathable air, but they're hanging on to the last moment where they can use their own air. Then they have to have the inevitable discussion and they take off their helmets..
It would or could create some extra tension as well. I enjoyed the movie but there is so many things that could have been done better, namely how the crew behaves. It is too slasher tropey as it is in my opinion.
Quote from: No Name on Jun 26, 2018, 11:28:53 AM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 26, 2018, 07:33:56 AM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 26, 2018, 01:13:40 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 26, 2018, 12:19:16 AM
What is the point of wearing spacesuits, when it's breathable atmosphere and no pathogens detected?
You can't detect things that are completely unknown. Taking an air sample might not reveal everything.
You shouldn't take your helmet off in the alien environment. Breathable does not equal safe. It was bad writing.
Yeah let's just get what, 10 people to wear big expensive unwieldy suits in a movie that's already on a budget. Also, let's remake Aliens to make everybody wear a hazmat suit in case of an airborne pathogen (very realistic given the sudden silence of the colony). Or even better, why not just send a ship full of androids? Worst writing ever! Travel back in time to 1986 to hand the reins of the franchise over to a director who knows how to handle the it!
I agree with this. Why is it a problem for the crew to enter the atmosphere without suits in Covenant but perfectly fine in Aliens?
Because LV-426 was a surveyed world with atmosphere processors set up, and they had a colony out there for a few decades. The moon was known, Planet 4 was completely unknown, they had no idea what could be on that rock.
Also airborne pathogens would not kill everyone at the same time unless they were all infected at the same time and even then a person's metabolism and immune system will come into play on how long it will take, meaning someone could possible give a warning about what would be happening. Well as far as I know anyway, I am no virologist. :laugh:
Quote from: The Old One on Jun 26, 2018, 12:34:31 AM
To avert or at least attempt to avert exactly what happened to Ledward, as a precaution.
It's like what Walter said about the stellar flares, it's a random event, you can't plan for it. They set this up early in the movie.
To take that level of precautions for things that are completely unknown borders on ridiculous. You cannot plan for everything. Like I said, it was a calculated risk type situation, a type of situation that happens all the time.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 26, 2018, 07:33:56 AM
You shouldn't take your helmet off in the alien environment. Breathable does not equal safe. It was bad writing.
Yeah let's just get what, 10 people to wear big expensive unwieldy suits in a movie that's already on a budget. Also, let's remake Aliens to make everybody wear a hazmat suit in case of an airborne pathogen (very realistic given the sudden silence of the colony). Or even better, why not just send a ship full of androids? Worst writing ever! Travel back in time to 1986 to hand the reins of the franchise over to a director who knows how to handle the it!
[/quote]
Write a better script. Budget the film better. Don't spend a quadrillion dollars on scenic photography that ends up acounting for .3 percent of the run time, but costs geometric amounts of money.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jun 26, 2018, 12:23:48 PM
Because LV-426 was a surveyed world with atmosphere processors set up, and they had a colony out there for a few decades. The moon was known, Planet 4 was completely unknown, they had no idea what could be on that rock.
Also airborne pathogens would not kill everyone at the same time unless they were all infected at the same time and even then a person's metabolism and immune system will come into play on how long it will take, meaning someone could possible give a warning about what would be happening. Well as far as I know anyway, I am no virologist. :laugh:
Bingo, sir. Bingo.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 27, 2018, 02:17:30 AM
It's like what Walter said about the stellar flares, it's a random event, you can't plan for it. They set this up early in the movie.
To take that level of precautions for things that are completely unknown borders on ridiculous. You cannot plan for everything. Like I said, it was a calculated risk type situation, a type of situation that happens all the time.
No, that's just not the same kind of thing. Massive stellar events are nothing like biological quarantine and standard safety measures. f**king Hell people, we practice this kind of stuff in the grocery business to keep people from getting horrifically ill from cross contamination. Masks, gloves, hair nets. This is our own planet trying to kill us.
Of course you'd wear biohazard gear. Especially something to cover your face and mouth. Just because a local sampling of the air reads clear doesn't mean you won't have exactly what happened, happened.
Quote from: No Name on Jun 26, 2018, 11:28:53 AM
...Why is it a problem for the crew to enter the atmosphere without suits in Covenant but perfectly fine in Aliens?
Because
Covenant made airbourne micro-pathogens a plot issue (later on someone gets infected by a spore), where
Aliens did not.
We audiences are a forgiving lot. If you don't mention that there is no gravity in outer space, we will happily play along with the fact that your spaceship allows people to walk around as if there is. If you don't mention the fact that there is no sound in a vacuum, we will allow your spaceship to make engine noise. If you don't mention the fact that alien micro-pathogens are a biosecurity risk, we will willingly suspend our disbelief and pretend that they don't exist.
This is the "Gentleman's Agreement" we made with the
Aliens storyteller, and also the storytellers of
Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, The 5th Element, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, Dune, Predators, Pitch Black, Guardians of the Galaxy, Avatar etc etc etc. We're nice that way.
But if you try to exploit the Gentleman's Agreement by first invoking it (we see the crew not following biosecurity precautions, thus implying that micro-pathogens don't exist), and yet later on you ignore the Agreement (because the plot features a micro-pathogen), then we feel like we're being played.
We tend to get snotty about things like that.
TC
Stopped reading at "We audiences are a forgiving lot".
j/k :D
Audiences are not forgiving at all though, especially when it comes to a franchise film.
As for not having suits, that stuff doesn't bother me in films like this. Its hardly important unless you understandably dont like the film already, then it becomes an easy criticism.
Also the point about aliens is quite valid. You would almost assuredly take precautions against possible disease in such a situation. But it didnt bother me in Aliens or AC or the many other creature films that dont take proper qaurentine precautions.
Quote"They've been there for over 20 years."
"Atmosphere processors that make the air breathable takes decades."
That's why.
Invalid argument. A key issue is the safety precautions each group should have taken with regards to what the air might contain following the break in communication. Also, the 20 years time frame means nothing. They're still living in a colony which requires constant operation of the atmospheric processes. Its not like 426 housed a number of fully fledged, large-scale, livable cities in an environment similar to Earth. And even then...
QuoteBecause in Aliens there had been people living in said atmosphere for 20 years, people who maintained contact with Earth and who included medical doctors and scientists.
Again, time frame is irrelevant. Also, 20 years everything is going well and then all of a sudden silence? Does that not sound like a situation requiring extra precaution?
QuoteBecause LV-426 was a surveyed world with atmosphere processors set up, and they had a colony out there for a few decades. The moon was known, Planet 4 was completely unknown, they had no idea what could be on that rock.
Also airborne pathogens would not kill everyone at the same time unless they were all infected at the same time and even then a person's metabolism and immune system will come into play on how long it will take, meaning someone could possible give a warning about what would be happening. Well as far as I know anyway, I am no virologist.
This just makes the Marines look like idiots. They should have, at the very least, began conducting the operation with biohazard gear until at least they discovered Newt.
QuoteNo, that's just not the same kind of thing. Massive stellar events are nothing like biological quarantine and standard safety measures. f**king Hell people, we practice this kind of stuff in the grocery business to keep people from getting horrifically ill from cross contamination. Masks, gloves, hair nets. This is our own planet trying to kill us.
Of course you'd wear biohazard gear. Especially something to cover your face and mouth. Just because a local sampling of the air reads clear doesn't mean you won't have exactly what happened, happened.
Yes, so why would it not make sense for the Marines to wear such gear then?
QuoteBecause Covenant made airbourne micro-pathogens a plot issue (later on someone gets infected by a spore), where Aliens did not.
We audiences are a forgiving lot. If you don't mention that there is no gravity in outer space, we will happily play along with the fact that your spaceship allows people to walk around as if there is. If you don't mention the fact that there is no sound in a vacuum, we will allow your spaceship to make engine noise. If you don't mention the fact that alien micro-pathogens are a biosecurity risk, we will willingly suspend our disbelief and pretend that they don't exist.
This is the "Gentleman's Agreement" we made with the Aliens storyteller, and also the storytellers of Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, The 5th Element, Forbidden Planet, Battlestar Galactica, Dune, Predators, Pitch Black etc etc etc. We're nice that way.
But if you try to exploit the Gentleman's Agreement by taking advantage of its benefits (i.e. first we see spacecrew not following biosecurity precautions, thus implying that micro-organisms don't exist), and yet later on you ignore the Agreement (because the plot features a micro-organism), then we feel like we're being played.
We tend to get snotty about things like that.
This is the best counter-argument presented and one I hadn't thought of. I suppose Ledward could have been attacked by an organism similar to a Facehugger, instead of getting infected if the Gentleman's Agreement was to be respected with regards to no suits.
Quote from: No Name on Jun 27, 2018, 05:23:40 PM
Yes, so why would it not make sense for the Marines to wear such gear then?
Because LV-426 had already been surveyed, colonized, and had it's atmosphere processed. There would be little to no risk of a pathogen of that kind existing on a dead rock that has been terraformed by and with often used methods, and the Alien if it was involved was also a known quantity.
The alien wasnt really a known quantity . They have no idea if they carry their own diseases and bacteria. And if its a dead rock with no worry of any contamination then the very presense of an alien means they don't know what they are dealing with or whats really on that rock.
There is no way that the situation in aliens wouldnt have qualified for precautionary measures.
Not that it matters as Aliens is a classic regardless.
If there was a biohazard risk (a la Planet 4 pathogen) then Ripley would've known about/ been affected by it.
There were people living on LV-426 for decades. They knew there was nothing there, and in some ways they were right. The derelict was not from there. The aliens were not from there. Decades of tests told them there was nothing in the air or in the ground that would make you sick. So if they made the air breathable over time, it's reasonable to go helmets off.
I'm trying to remember how Russ and Anne were walking around. Did they have helmets?
They had protective glasses.
That's not the point though. They may have been living for decades without incident, but the exposure to the Alien was only very recent, so it's fair to ask the question as to why the marines didn't wear protective gear. And the answer is, Ripley was exposed to the same thing and neither she nor her crew were affected by any pathogen.
Quote from: SM on Jun 27, 2018, 08:43:51 PM
If there was a biohazard risk (a la Planet 4 pathogen) then Ripley would've known about/ been affected by it.
From the marines perspective would Ripleys, at the time, brief brush with the alien mean that you could be sure you know all of its capabilities or even its full lifecycle? Not to mention they have no idea what else could have been on the derelict. Just sending the marines into a situation with a possible alien lifeform would merit taking quarantine precautions one would think.
Granted they didnt really believe Ripley.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 27, 2018, 05:44:12 PM
Quote from: No Name on Jun 27, 2018, 05:23:40 PM
Yes, so why would it not make sense for the Marines to wear such gear then?
Because LV-426 had already been surveyed, colonized, and had it's atmosphere processed. There would be little to no risk of a pathogen of that kind existing on a dead rock that has been terraformed by and with often used methods, and the Alien if it was involved was also a known quantity.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jun 27, 2018, 08:46:16 PM
There were people living on LV-426 for decades. They knew there was nothing there, and in some ways they were right. The derelict was not from there. The aliens were not from there. Decades of tests told them there was nothing in the air or in the ground that would make you sick. So if they made the air breathable over time, it's reasonable to go helmets off.
I'm trying to remember how Russ and Anne were walking around. Did they have helmets?
This is not what he's asking. It doesn't matter if people had been living there for decades, they had NO idea if there was super-magical alien microbe contamination from the derelict or anything.
They had a pretty good idea.
They had 20 years worth of an idea.
Suspend your disbelief and enjoy the film...
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 27, 2018, 02:31:35 AM
No, that's just not the same kind of thing. Massive stellar events are nothing like biological quarantine and standard safety measures. f**king Hell people, we practice this kind of stuff in the grocery business to keep people from getting horrifically ill from cross contamination. Masks, gloves, hair nets. This is our own planet trying to kill us.
Of course you'd wear biohazard gear. Especially something to cover your face and mouth. Just because a local sampling of the air reads clear doesn't mean you won't have exactly what happened, happened.
No but how were they supposed to know? And why take precautions for things unlikely to happen (from their perspective)?
There's a big difference between landing in America for the first time and drinking out of a river versus going to a frontier town several decades later and drinking water handed to you in a glass. Chances are the former is going to give you an awful intestinal parasite, and the latter has been boiled and purified.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 28, 2018, 01:25:53 AM
No but how were they supposed to know? And why take precautions for things unlikely to happen (from their perspective)?
It's far better to
air on the side of caution until you know for sure. It's actually not unlikely, at all. If we found a planet that was practically tailor suited to our biology, then it's very likely to have some nasty bacteria, viruses, and pathogens hanging around that will kill us.
Once again they scanned the planet, so they didn't have to worry about that problem.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 28, 2018, 01:33:06 AM
Once again they scanned the planet, so they didn't have to worry about that problem.
Except they clearly
did have to worry about that problem, because their stupidity and lack of safety precaution got
them all killed.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 27, 2018, 01:06:17 PM
Stopped reading at "We audiences are a forgiving lot".
j/k :D
Audiences are not forgiving at all though, especially when it comes to a franchise film.
If you'd kept reading you would have found out what happens when the forgiveness is over and the poo-flinging begins. ;D
All this argument about what constitutes proper biosecurity practices in a space movie is a red herring. If you feel like what was shown to you was unrealistic, I would agree but we need to ask, so what? Other sci-fi movies have plots that are equally unscientific but without incurring audience blowback. So what's the difference?
The difference is that in
Covenant it's become personal; we feel like our good nature (to "willingly suspend our disbelief") has been taken advantage of in a way that treats us as gullible and stupid. (Other readers can see my earlier post if that needs explanation.)
Woe betide any filmmaker that dares to do that.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 27, 2018, 01:06:17 PM
As for not having suits, that stuff doesn't bother me in films like this. Its hardly important unless you understandably dont like the film already, then it becomes an easy criticism.
Exactly. If you enjoy the film, if you feel respected by the storyteller, if there's goodwill all round, then you're far more likely to allow the filmmaker license to stretch reality in ways that make the storytelling easier.
This is also a large part of the reason why there's so much hate going on with a section of
The Last Jedi's fanbase. It's become personal because they feel disrespected.
TC
Quote from: TC on Jun 28, 2018, 06:06:12 AM
All this argument about what constitutes proper biosecurity practices in a space movie is a red herring. If you feel like what was shown to you was unrealistic, I would agree but we need to ask, so what? Other sci-fi movies have plots that are equally unscientific but without incurring audience blowback. So what's the difference?
The difference is that in Covenant it's become personal; we feel like our good nature (to "willingly suspend our disbelief") has been taken advantage of in a way that treats us as gullible and stupid. (Other readers can see my earlier post if that needs explanation.)
Woe betide any filmmaker that dares to do that.
The difference is tone and previously established movie-universe-logic. The Alien films, Covenant included, play it straight and have a tone that conveys to the audience that they're supposed to take the things unfolding on screen seriously. When combined with the fact that you already had mere space truckers take more precautions to ensure their safety all the way back in film #1 in 1979, you get to second-guess everything you see in Covenant because the writing doesn't support either the tone or the previously established logic. If you had the Looney Toons theme playing in the background while the characters made their decisions, Covenant might've worked better because then the audience would've known how to treat what they see.
Something like Alien:Resurrection took a lot of flack for its tone not matching with the rest of the franchise, but when you watch that film on its own you know not to take it as seriously as previous films because the writing matches the tone of the film. The film
feels cartoony and lighthearted.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jun 27, 2018, 10:46:09 PM
They had 20 years worth of an idea.
Right, because they explored the Derelict for 20 years.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 28, 2018, 01:29:51 AM
There's a big difference between landing in America for the first time and drinking out of a river versus going to a frontier town several decades later and drinking water handed to you in a glass. Chances are the former is going to give you an awful intestinal parasite, and the latter has been boiled and purified.
Again... There's no reaching you guys.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jun 28, 2018, 08:07:32 AM
The difference is tone and previously established movie-universe-logic.
...
"Tone" yes.
But now we've gone beyond a specific discussion about proper biosecurity protocols and delved into other areas of silliness.
Somewhere in this forum I questioned the tone of the scene where Karine and Maggie, one after the other, slip over in the same puddle of blood in the lander's medbay. I called it a Keystone-Cops-and-the-banana-skin scene. But as inappropriate as that was, I think it was intentional on Ridley Scott's part. (Also the bit where Maggie sprays off a clip of automatic gunfire and manages to hit everything in the lander except the alien - WTF, right?) But I think Scott's intended effect was supposed to be: feeble ineptitude of good guys will cause the audience's pulse to race while they rise out of their seats in unison, clenching the backs of the seats in front, while yelling their alarm out loud at the screen.
But this only works if the characters have already engaged your sympathy. Otherwise all you've done is replicate that cliche where the vulnerable girl runs through the forest to escape the villain who is close behind when she trips over a tree root, wasting valuable seconds... IOW just another "roll your eyes" moment.
Anyway, my point is that Karine/Maggie's demise had the tone all wrong.
TC
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 28, 2018, 08:53:32 AM
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jun 27, 2018, 10:46:09 PM
They had 20 years worth of an idea.
Right, because they explored the Derelict for 20 years.
No, because they have established a
colony and lived there for 20 years. A colony, as in the place where the marines go, where the whole bloody
film takes place. The marines don't even go to the derelict. You're making a comparison between a place nobody goes to, and a place everybody goes to, somehow thinking one justifies the other.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 28, 2018, 01:35:38 AM
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 28, 2018, 01:33:06 AM
Once again they scanned the planet, so they didn't have to worry about that problem.
Except they clearly did have to worry about that problem, because their stupidity and lack of safety precaution got them all killed.
Isn't this intended though? Because the movie has a point of humans putting too much faith in their technology.
In Alien they wore spacesuits. The facehugger still impregnated Kane.
In Prometheus they wore spacesuits. The black goo still melted through Fifield's helmet.
It makes no difference, because -guess what- it's all make-believe. You are arguing that fictional characters could have stopped a movie's plot from happening.
Quote from: No Name on Jun 27, 2018, 05:23:40 PMAlso, 20 years everything is going well and then all of a sudden silence? Does that not sound like a situation requiring extra precaution?
Fair point. They probably should of sent in a marine platoon packing state of the art firepower to check it out first ::)
Seriously though, there are varying levels of stupid. Venturing unprotected into a well known
biologically sterile environment that just maybe might of fallen victim to a magical pathogenic contamination (that can somehow propagate in a biologically sterile environment) is exponentially less stupid than stepping unprotected into a completely unknown biologically active environment filthy with life.
Drawing any logical equivalence between the two just can't be done, so I reckon you are being purposefully contrary. Not sure why though.
Quote from: TC on Jun 28, 2018, 06:06:12 AMIf you enjoy the film, if you feel respected by the storyteller, if there's goodwill all round, then you're far more likely to allow the filmmaker license to stretch reality in ways that make the storytelling easier.
In other words 'One will swallow as much bullshit as one is willing to swallow'. I enjoy Covenant just fine, but damn is it just loaded to the hilt with bullshit. Feel free to call it out; despite what some people think it is actually OK to criticise things that you like.
Quote from: Kane's other son on Jun 28, 2018, 11:39:42 AMYou are arguing that fictional characters could have stopped a movie's plot from happening.
I love this sentence.
Quote from: Kane's other son on Jun 28, 2018, 11:39:42 AM
In Alien they wore spacesuits. The facehugger still impregnated Kane.
In Prometheus they wore spacesuits. The black goo still melted through Fifield's helmet.
It makes no difference, because -guess what- it's all make-believe. You are arguing that fictional characters could have stopped a movie's plot from happening.
Absolutely nobody argues that fictional characters could have stopped a movie's plot from happening.
The argument is that a good story has the plot happening
despite the characters doing everything in their power to avoid harm. The fact that Kane wore a spacesuit and the facehugger still got him, so the suit didn't matter -
is what matters; The fact that Ripley and the marines hole themselves in and barricade the hell out of their positions, but the aliens still get in so none of it mattered -
is what matters. Character choices matter. It's the script's job to sell those choices to the audience in order to make the characters compelling. If the choices don't matter - the story itself doesn't matter.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jun 28, 2018, 12:01:44 PM
Quote from: No Name on Jun 27, 2018, 05:23:40 PMAlso, 20 years everything is going well and then all of a sudden silence? Does that not sound like a situation requiring extra precaution?
Fair point. They probably should of sent in a marine platoon packing state of the art firepower to check it out first ::)
Seriously though, there are varying levels of stupid. Venturing unprotected into a well known biologically sterile environment that just maybe might of fallen victim to a magical pathogenic contamination (that can somehow propagate in a biologically sterile environment) is exponentially less stupid than stepping unprotected into a completely unknown biologically active environment filthy with life.
And how exactly would you know it's """biologically sterile""" beforehand?
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jun 28, 2018, 12:01:44 PM
Drawing any logical equivalence between the two just can't be done, so I reckon you are being purposefully contrary. Not sure why though.
Lol, the level of delusional denial when it comes to the first two movies is just insane.
God I'm sick of this argument.
Quote from: ChrisPachi on Jun 28, 2018, 12:01:44 PM
it is actually OK to criticise things that you like.
Indeed, I can think a few things in the first two films easily, they are not immune just because they are good movies.
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jun 28, 2018, 12:07:11 PM
Quote from: Kane's other son on Jun 28, 2018, 11:39:42 AM
In Alien they wore spacesuits. The facehugger still impregnated Kane.
In Prometheus they wore spacesuits. The black goo still melted through Fifield's helmet.
It makes no difference, because -guess what- it's all make-believe. You are arguing that fictional characters could have stopped a movie's plot from happening.
Absolutely nobody argues that fictional characters could have stopped a movie's plot from happening.
The argument is that a good story has the plot happening despite the characters doing everything in their power to avoid harm. The fact that Kane wore a spacesuit and the facehugger still got him, so the suit didn't matter - is what matters; The fact that Ripley and the marines hole themselves in and barricade the hell out of their positions, but the aliens still get in so none of it mattered - is what matters. Character choices matter. It's the script's job to sell those choices to the audience in order to make the characters compelling. If the choices don't matter - the story itself doesn't matter.
Exactly, the fact that characters being killed/infected in spite of their best efforts is what would make the threat more dangerous and impressive. Death via stupidity is not impressive, its low and idiotic.
According to Ridley Scott in the commentary, most of them on the Covenant are scientists and are
supposedly the "foremost best in their respective field" but the movie not only doesn't show this but makes them out to lack even common sense.
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 28, 2018, 01:01:19 PM
Lol, the level of delusional denial when it comes to the first two movies is just insane.
Not a very pleasant thing to say.
The first two movies are not critic proof but Covenant is just an inferior film with slasher genre characters, basically a bunch of slasher victims running and tripping over the proverbial root in the ground or making some other slasher trope mistakes.
The "denial" thing can easily be applied to the other side of an argument, since there has been a lot of folks glossing over the blatant mistakes of the covenant crew but people's opinion must be respected either way, they are allowed to love the movie in spite of the issues, whether they see it or not. And they are allowed to criticise the movie that they believe has made mistakes, especially ones that cheap and insulting. It doesn't mean they are "delusionally" liking the first two.
I just dont think a team would be sent to investigate a colony that might be infected with an alien parasite, a parasite that comes from an alien spacecraft containing alien eggs and god know what else (black goo could have been there for all we or anyone in universe knows), without taking all the necesary quarantine precautions.
The idea that the colony had been there 20 years means nothing since they dont have a clue what else is on the Derelict. Its not like Ripley was even in the craft before and Dallas, Kane, and Lambert didnt investigate the whole ship.
The counter argument is like saying that if an alien spacecraft was discovered in rural america then there would be no need for precautionary measures when investigating. Because its rural america and we know there is no alien disease in rural america.
Quote from: OpenMawBecause LV-426 had already been surveyed, colonized, and had it's atmosphere processed. There would be little to no risk of a pathogen of that kind existing on a dead rock that has been terraformed by and with often used methods, and the Alien if it was involved was also a known quantity
People are still failing to see the point...
QuoteQuote
No, that's just not the same kind of thing. Massive stellar events are nothing like biological quarantine and standard safety measures. f**king Hell people, we practice this kind of stuff in the grocery business to keep people from getting horrifically ill from cross contamination. Masks, gloves, hair nets. This is our own planet trying to kill us.
Of course you'd wear biohazard gear. Especially something to cover your face and mouth. Just because a local sampling of the air reads clear doesn't mean you won't have exactly what happened, happened.
Quote from: No NameYes, so why would it not make sense for the Marines to wear such gear then?
[/b]
Quote from: ChrisPachiFair point. They probably should of sent in a marine platoon packing state of the art firepower to check it out first ::)
Seriously though, there are varying levels of stupid. Venturing unprotected into a well known biologically sterile environment that just maybe might of fallen victim to a magical pathogenic contamination (that can somehow propagate in a biologically sterile environment) is exponentially less stupid than stepping unprotected into a completely unknown biologically active environment filthy with life.
Drawing any logical equivalence between the two just can't be done, so I reckon you are being purposefully contrary. Not sure why though.
No. What they should have done was wear protective biohazard suits. They have absolutely no idea what happened. Why were a marine platoon armed to the teeth sent in the first place? Why not just send an investigative unit of sorts? They obviously think something serious may have happened but don't have any reliable information to go on.
But sure, lets send in the marines, but forget about equipping them with biohazard gear, because you know, its only a tiny colony built on a rock in the middle of nowhere, and being sustained solely through atmo-processors. I mean of course, it is absolutely impossible for an unknown biological contamination of unknown origins to break out in an environment far out in outer space. Because 20 years of everything fine = no chance of any future potential outbreaks from any kind of source in such a context. Of course.
Anyone seen the Mist? Look at the ending here:
https://youtu.be/ktqNNsVJhUE?t=222The Marines should have been suited up in a similar fashion. The soldiers in that instance are following a particular protocol. The Marines followed no such protocol in responding to a situation serious enough that it necessitated their presence and for which they had virtually no concrete information.
There is absolutely no i
n-film justification for this lack of protocol. None. The only justifiable explanations are
out-film such as the Gentlemens' Agreement TC brought up earlier. I'm simply amazed at how people continue to go with foolish in-film explanations when the out-film reasons sufficiently explain why, in this particular instance, Covenent crew=morons, Aliens crew=fine.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jun 28, 2018, 04:21:44 PM
Quote from: tleilaxu on Jun 28, 2018, 01:01:19 PM
Lol, the level of delusional denial when it comes to the first two movies is just insane.
Not a very pleasant thing to say.
The first two movies are not critic proof but Covenant is just an inferior film with slasher genre characters, basically a bunch of slasher victims running and tripping over the proverbial root in the ground or making some other slasher trope mistakes.
The "denial" thing can easily be applied to the other side of an argument, since there has been a lot of folks glossing over the blatant mistakes of the covenant crew but people's opinion must be respected either way, they are allowed to love the movie in spite of the issues, whether they see it or not. And they are allowed to criticise the movie that they believe has made mistakes, especially ones that cheap and insulting. It doesn't mean they are "delusionally" liking the first two.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jun 28, 2018, 04:21:44 PM
The "denial" thing can easily be applied to the other side of an argument, since there has been a lot of folks glossing over the blatant mistakes of the covenant crew but people's opinion must be respected either way, they are allowed to love the movie in spite of the issues, whether they see it or not. And they are allowed to criticise the movie that they believe has made mistakes, especially ones that cheap and insulting. It doesn't mean they are "delusionally" liking the first two.
This is exactly what some of you people are doing though. I'm not saying there aren't mistakes in Covenant, I completely agree with many of the criticisms, but whenever you try to put it into perspective by mentioning flaws in other alien movies you get met with this exact wall of denial.
So they should just shut up and agree?
No. See TC's post for a good example on how you can disagree without evading an issue due to cognitive bias.
Who's evading then?
I missed out on the whole "the skull" thing, but can we call this "the helmet"?
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jun 28, 2018, 11:29:43 PM
I missed out on the whole "the skull" thing, but can we call this "the helmet"?
AND it has finally been given a name.
The thing is though, all of us do things that we know are not safe from time to time. Like hanging out of a four story window to paint an awning without a wire harness or respirator. Yea I totally got it but still, one banana and down I go. People cut corners all of the time, even professionals. The Helmet just isn't that big of an issue when we are talking about human beings.
If you want the audience to empathise rather than criticize, you need to show the characters making decisions we understand and believe are intelligent.
When you get down to it we don't know why people do what they do. What makes someone tick? All you can say is "I wouldn't do that"
Quote from: The Old One on Jun 28, 2018, 11:47:09 PM
If you want the audience to empathise rather than criticize, you need to show the characters making decisions we understand and believe are intelligent.
This.
I can buy that the Colonial Marines didn't even take Ripley seriously. That much is made readily apparent throughout the first half of the film. The only marine to give her story even the slightest of credence is Hicks.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jun 28, 2018, 11:39:25 PM
The thing is though, all of us do things that we know are not safe from time to time. Like hanging out of a four story window to paint an awning without a wire harness or respirator. Yea I totally got it but still, one banana and down I go. People cut corners all of the time, even professionals. The Helmet just isn't that big of an issue when we are talking about human beings.
This isn't some blokes 'avin' a laugh, or some jack asses hanging off a rock face for kicks. These are supposed to be highly intelligent scientists and experienced space explorers looking to, as David said, save humanity.
This notion that we can't anticipate what people would do in chaotic situations is a novel approach to the discussion, but the problem is we aren't talking about a fight or flight scenario or something like that. We're talking about basic, bare bones quarentine here.
Also, even disregarding my statement above about the Colonial Marines not taking Ripley serious, LV-426 and Planet 4 are two completely different scenarios. One is a known quantity with decades of information behind it. The other is literally a totally unknown.
Quote from: Scorpio on Jun 29, 2018, 02:32:56 AM
When you get down to it we don't know why people do what they do. What makes someone tick? All you can say is "I wouldn't do that"
We generally know exactly why people do what they do, because their character is established in a certain way that predicts how they'll react. Or they just tell us.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 29, 2018, 08:42:58 PMThese are supposed to be highly intelligent scientists and experienced space explorers looking to, as David said, save humanity.
Highly intelligent my ass. These guys could just be fools with degrees.
Then again, we're going around in star trek logic here. I don't know how many worlds may have been explored by then but perhaps they never once ran into any microbiological/animal threat. Just landscapes and atmosphere. Of course they way I look at it is even though the air is breathable and there isn't any sign of a threat, there could be environmental dangers, such as burns or poisonous substances. So a hazmat suit should have been warranted until the area was secured. But no one wants to watch that kind of a monster movie.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 29, 2018, 08:42:58 PMThese are supposed to be highly intelligent scientists and experienced space explorers looking to, as David said, save humanity.
Helmet argument aside, I don't get why everyone thinks they're a bunch of scientists.
From wiki:
Michael Fassbender as Walter, who assists the crew aboard the Covenant.
Katherine Waterston as Daniels, the chief of terraforming for the Covenant mission, the third in command after Branson and Oram.
Billy Crudup as Chris Oram, the Covenant's first mate
Danny McBride as Tennessee Faris, the chief pilot
Demián Bichir as Carl Lope, the head of the security unit
Carmen Ejogo as Karine Oram, the Covenant's biologist
Jussie Smollett as Ricks, the Covenant's navigator
Callie Hernandez as Upworth, the Covenant's communication officer; she also has paramedic training.
Amy Seimetz as Maggie Faris, the lander's pilot
Nathaniel Dean as Hallett, a member of the security unit
Alexander England as Ankor, a member of the security unit.
Benjamin Rigby as Ledward, a member of the security unit.
Uli Latukefu as Cole, a member of the security unit.
Tess Haubrich as Sarah Rosenthal, a member of the security unit.
That's basically an architect and a biologist.
Imagine a boat on a colony mission and who would be on that boat?
Boat captain, boat staff, workers to set up the colony. And then maybe some scientist to do some research in the new environment.
Even though the scientist might be a smart, educated person, chances are the higher ups will ignore him.
The Terror series sorta comes to mind.
If you look at past events, science wasn't much of a priority. It's usually not until they find someting of value (besides a place to set up a colony), that they'll send out additional people to do whatever. Like they might do in the sequel.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 29, 2018, 08:42:58 PM
This isn't some blokes 'avin' a laugh, or some jack asses hanging off a rock face for kicks. These are supposed to be highly intelligent scientists and experienced space explorers looking to, as David said, save humanity.
This notion that we can't anticipate what people would do in chaotic situations is a novel approach to the discussion, but the problem is we aren't talking about a fight or flight scenario or something like that. We're talking about basic, bare bones quarentine here.
Also, even disregarding my statement above about the Colonial Marines not taking Ripley serious, LV-426 and Planet 4 are two completely different scenarios. One is a known quantity with decades of information behind it. The other is literally a totally unknown.
Decades of known quantity of information doesn't automatically guarantee one is allowed to disregard, as you put it, "bare bones quarantine measures". The comparison between 426 and P4 only works to the extent that no unknowns begin arising rapidly in the former. Obviously a break in communication for about 3 weeks iirc, is plenty of time to conclude that there is new information to be acquired (especially considering that such information may quite possibly be of a disturbing nature). This is especially so given the overall context of the Alien universe in general (deep space, unknown entities, etc.) If there is no way to access said info, there is absolutely no reason to disregard additional safety precautions especially for an outfit as high-level as the United States military. The fact that the Marines were sent in when a small-scale but specialized investigation unit would just as easily have sufficed, already speaks volumes to this notion.
You're really just contradicting yourself at this point.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jun 30, 2018, 03:01:04 AM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 29, 2018, 08:42:58 PMThese are supposed to be highly intelligent scientists and experienced space explorers looking to, as David said, save humanity.
Helmet argument aside, I don't get why everyone thinks they're a bunch of scientists.
From wiki:
Michael Fassbender as Walter, who assists the crew aboard the Covenant.
Katherine Waterston as Daniels, the chief of terraforming for the Covenant mission, the third in command after Branson and Oram.
Billy Crudup as Chris Oram, the Covenant's first mate
Danny McBride as Tennessee Faris, the chief pilot
Demián Bichir as Carl Lope, the head of the security unit
Carmen Ejogo as Karine Oram, the Covenant's biologist
Jussie Smollett as Ricks, the Covenant's navigator
Callie Hernandez as Upworth, the Covenant's communication officer; she also has paramedic training.
Amy Seimetz as Maggie Faris, the lander's pilot
Nathaniel Dean as Hallett, a member of the security unit
Alexander England as Ankor, a member of the security unit.
Benjamin Rigby as Ledward, a member of the security unit.
Uli Latukefu as Cole, a member of the security unit.
Tess Haubrich as Sarah Rosenthal, a member of the security unit.
That's basically an architect and a biologist.
Imagine a boat on a colony mission and who would be on that boat?
Boat captain, boat staff, workers to set up the colony. And then maybe some scientist to do some research in the new environment.
Even though the scientist might be a smart, educated person, chances are the higher ups will ignore him.
The Terror series sorta comes to mind.
If you look at past events, science wasn't much of a priority. It's usually not until they find someting of value (besides a place to set up a colony), that they'll send out additional people to do whatever. Like they might do in the sequel.
The Oram's were both in life sciences. But otherwise you're right.
Quote from: No Name on Jun 30, 2018, 08:52:17 AM
Decades of known quantity of information doesn't automatically guarantee one is allowed to disregard, as you put it, "bare bones quarantine measures". The comparison between 426 and P4 only works to the extent that no unknowns begin arising rapidly in the former. Obviously a break in communication for about 3 weeks iirc, is plenty of time to conclude that there is new information to be acquired (especially considering that such information may quite possibly be of a disturbing nature). This is especially so given the overall context of the Alien universe in general (deep space, unknown entities, etc.) If there is no way to access said info, there is absolutely no reason to disregard additional safety precautions especially for an outfit as high-level as the United States military. The fact that the Marines were sent in when a small-scale but specialized investigation unit would just as easily have sufficed, already speaks volumes to this notion.
You're really just contradicting yourself at this point.
Your post is based on assumptions that result from knowing the plot, rather than how people act in real life. Decades of known information indeed guarantee the disregard bare bones quarantine measures, which is exactly why they are disregarded right now. You're currently not wearing a hazmat suit because you lived on this planet long enough to know you won't get infected with an alien organism.
The comparison between 426 and P4 indeed only works to the extent that no unknowns begin arising rapidly in the former, which is exactly what the characters know: there was a loss of communication with the colony, and it's "probably just a busted transmitter", which is usually the case in such instances. The only people who know better are Ripley (who is considered a nutjob for it) and Burke (who is responsible for the whole thing, and is trying to keep the whole thing quiet).
The context of the Alien universe, which you mention, is, again, something
you know. Not something the characters know. You know there are unknown entities in this universe, but the characters work under the assumption that there aren't any; That only crazy people even talk about that type of stuff. Which is why nobody is buying Ripley's story. The Colonial Marines sent there aren't a high level response - they're a low level response. Which is why they send a bunch of grunts led by a noob officer.
You seem to be working under the assumption that whenever communication is lost with a person or place, people run in there wearing hazmat suits (cause, I mean, it
could be due to aliens, right?). Nobody does that. You get hazmat suits when you know for a fact that you're dealing with an alien organism because only then the situation might change, as is the case in the scene from The Mist you previously mentioned.
In comparison, knowingly walking into an alien environment you expect to be vulnerable to all kinds of threats, from microbes your immune system can't handle to literal alien organisms you've never encountered. This much has been common knowledge at the very least since the discovery of America. There's also the meta element at play here, where exposure to an alien environment simply due the air being breathable has been a source for criticism against the previous film, yet they go even further with this stupidity in Covenant.
:D
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jun 30, 2018, 03:01:04 AM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 29, 2018, 08:42:58 PMThese are supposed to be highly intelligent scientists and experienced space explorers looking to, as David said, save humanity.
Helmet argument aside, I don't get why everyone thinks they're a bunch of scientists.
Because according to Scott they are scientists, even Oram says as much in one of the promotional vids. Scott even says in the commentary that they were the best in their fields. Personally I don't buy it due to the behavior we see on screen. :laugh:
Quote from: Paranoid Android on Jun 30, 2018, 10:45:44 AM
Quote from: No Name on Jun 30, 2018, 08:52:17 AM
Decades of known quantity of information doesn't automatically guarantee one is allowed to disregard, as you put it, "bare bones quarantine measures". The comparison between 426 and P4 only works to the extent that no unknowns begin arising rapidly in the former. Obviously a break in communication for about 3 weeks iirc, is plenty of time to conclude that there is new information to be acquired (especially considering that such information may quite possibly be of a disturbing nature). This is especially so given the overall context of the Alien universe in general (deep space, unknown entities, etc.) If there is no way to access said info, there is absolutely no reason to disregard additional safety precautions especially for an outfit as high-level as the United States military. The fact that the Marines were sent in when a small-scale but specialized investigation unit would just as easily have sufficed, already speaks volumes to this notion.
You're really just contradicting yourself at this point.
Your post is based on assumptions that result from knowing the plot, rather than how people act in real life. Decades of known information indeed guarantee the disregard bare bones quarantine measures, which is exactly why they are disregarded right now. You're currently not wearing a hazmat suit because you lived on this planet long enough to know you won't get infected with an alien organism.
The comparison between 426 and P4 indeed only works to the extent that no unknowns begin arising rapidly in the former, which is exactly what the characters know: there was a loss of communication with the colony, and it's "probably just a busted transmitter", which is usually the case in such instances. The only people who know better are Ripley (who is considered a nutjob for it) and Burke (who is responsible for the whole thing, and is trying to keep the whole thing quiet).
The context of the Alien universe, which you mention, is, again, something you know. Not something the characters know. You know there are unknown entities in this universe, but the characters work under the assumption that there aren't any; That only crazy people even talk about that type of stuff. Which is why nobody is buying Ripley's story. The Colonial Marines sent there aren't a high level response - they're a low level response. Which is why they send a bunch of grunts led by a noob officer.
You seem to be working under the assumption that whenever communication is lost with a person or place, people run in there wearing hazmat suits (cause, I mean, it could be due to aliens, right?). Nobody does that. You get hazmat suits when you know for a fact that you're dealing with an alien organism because only then the situation might change, as is the case in the scene from The Mist you previously mentioned.
In comparison, knowingly walking into an alien environment you expect to be vulnerable to all kinds of threats, from microbes your immune system can't handle to literal alien organisms you've never encountered. This much has been common knowledge at the very least since the discovery of America. There's also the meta element at play here, where exposure to an alien environment simply due the air being breathable has been a source for criticism against the previous film, yet they go even further with this stupidity in Covenant.
This. The known issue as far as everyone but Ripley and Burke knew was that they simply lost contact with the colony, sure it could have been anything from simple transmitter issue to "possibly" alien plague or some viral pathogen outbreak but they would have no reason to think the latter because the moon was a known and surveryed area and before then, the rock was dead with no indigneous life.
Plus even after the atmosphere processor was up and running, it was still a dead and lifeless rock, it would be unlikely for pathogens to be there because viruses require living organsism to function, and since the planet was completely dead up until the few decades worth of colonization, it would be unlikely something evolved in that time to infect someone.
However, I personally would have given the moon a good recon with every possible scanner first.
But it is understandable they didn't because in real life, I don't think they send the CDC or hazmat teams simply because one loses contact with an established base, especially if they have been given some intel of a physical threat, The Marines were given some intel by Ripley so they knew or at least considered that the threat was physical and not viral.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jun 30, 2018, 02:26:30 PM
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jun 30, 2018, 03:01:04 AM
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jun 29, 2018, 08:42:58 PMThese are supposed to be highly intelligent scientists and experienced space explorers looking to, as David said, save humanity.
Helmet argument aside, I don't get why everyone thinks they're a bunch of scientists.
Because according to Scott they are scientists, even Oram says as much in one of the promotional vids. Scott even says in the commentary that they were the best in their fields. Personally I don't buy it due to the behavior we see on screen. :laugh:
This. I personally don't have a big problem with their behavior, even though I'm longing for smart characters more and more, but Scott can't just insist that they are scientists and the best in their fields when he does not portray the characters like scientists at all.
Quote from: No Name on Jun 30, 2018, 08:52:17 AM
The fact that the Marines were sent in when a small-scale but specialized investigation unit would just as easily have sufficed, already speaks volumes to this notion.
I recall there being some background info about why the Marines were sent there and it was to do with them being a small group who were en route either to or from R&R, during a campaign elsewhere. It was logistically the best solution to get an armed force there quickest. If I remember rightly it was from that Colonial Marines Technical Manual book. Anyone who has it care to correct or confirm?
What would 'small-scale but specialised investigation unit' being investigating? A downed transmitter?
Quote from: irn on Jun 30, 2018, 04:18:08 PM
Quote from: No Name on Jun 30, 2018, 08:52:17 AM
The fact that the Marines were sent in when a small-scale but specialized investigation unit would just as easily have sufficed, already speaks volumes to this notion.
I recall there being some background info about why the Marines were sent there and it was to do with them being a small group who were en route either to or from R&R, during a campaign elsewhere. It was logistically the best solution to get an armed force there quickest. If I remember rightly it was from that Colonial Marines Technical Manual book. Anyone who has it care to correct or confirm?
I just quoted something on another message and when I got to the primary source, realized my memory was for shite. That being said, inquiring minds might (might) find a copy of CMTM at www.scribd.com. If they searched... :)
Dialogue in the film suggests they were despatched pretty quickly and were due some time off.
Quote from: Still Collating... on Jun 30, 2018, 03:39:05 PM
This. I personally don't have a big problem with their behavior, even though I'm longing for smart characters more and more, but Scott can't just insist that they are scientists and the best in their fields when he does not portray the characters like scientists at all.
In the Alien movies the scientists/science officers/knowledgeable characters sometimes don't act in a reasonable way (imo based on my university education).
- These films have fictional characters which serve the story.
Their behavior may imitate actions by people in our world but just as often the characters are following horror/action/adventure cliches.
* Any time a space alien creature is in contact with humans there is a chance of airborne infection. Space aliens can have viruses / bacteria where a human can have no immunity.
- One of the first alien / human science fiction contact stories was "War of the Worlds". And in that novel, the aliens died because of this problem, disease from a different species which for them was humanity.
** Let's apply this idea of virus / bacteria precautions in some Alien movies.
* "Alien"; Xenomorph is inside the ship. No one is wearing helmets. (I'll put Ash aside since he didn't care if the crew died.)
But Ripley is no dummy and she had expertise with quarantine protocols.
This is elementary science to try to prevent airborne infection.
Precaution fail.
* "Aliens"; the Xenomorph Queen is found which is an unknown alien creature.
Again, Ripley knows quarantine procedure. But she, Newt, the Marines, Burke don't wear helmets on LV-426.
Precaution fail.
* "Prometheus"; here we have the only test of the air in the tunnels for bacteria / impurities with the instruments of David, Ford and Holloway.
It turned out that Holloway's theory was right, the air was being cleaned by Engineer tech. David confirmed the safety of the tunnel air later in the movie with Weyland.
This was the only time where the air in an Alien franchise movie was tested and found to be safe.
Precaution win.
* "Covenant"; There is an unknown planet and the instruments show that the air is clean.
What is the problem? Deadly mold spores infected with black goo. It's not an air problem but an animal attack problem.
This is similar to a classic Star Trek trope where the crew goes to a planet; it seems to be safe but some plant attacked the crew.
Precaution fail.
* But the worst scientist fail I leave for "Alien 4" where a scientist puts 3 Xenomorphs in the same cage for an experiment.
Xenomorphs carry a large set of razor sharp teeth which could easily cut into the flesh of another creature even by accident causing it to bleed.
The Xenos also have acid blood which can eat through any substance made by humanity, even futuristic / advanced humanity.
- Logically from a science perspective, the experiment would never have more than one Xeno in a cage.
Triple precaution fail.
* But taking all precautions is not the purpose of these movies. Almost all of the characters are supposed to die.
So the story has certain basic precautions being ignored.
(Also, no helmets allows characters to be more easy to see.)
Sometimes precaution fails are there so the characters will die.
* Considering that; I don't see "Covenant" or "Prometheus" being any worse that the previous Alien films in terms of the crews taking unnecessary risks.
;)
@ParanoidAndroid
QuoteYour post is based on assumptions that result from knowing the plot, rather than how people act in real life. Decades of known information indeed guarantee the disregard bare bones quarantine measures, which is exactly why they are disregarded right now. You're currently not wearing a hazmat suit because you lived on this planet long enough to know you won't get infected with an alien organism.
I get what you're saying, but the situation in the film is still contextually too different than what you're describing imo.
QuoteThe context of the Alien universe, which you mention, is, again, something you know. Not something the characters know. You know there are unknown entities in this universe, but the characters work under the assumption that there aren't any; That only crazy people even talk about that type of stuff. Which is why nobody is buying Ripley's story. The Colonial Marines sent there aren't a high level response - they're a low level response. Which is why they send a bunch of grunts led by a noob officer.
I don't agree with this. What about the Arcturians? What about Hudson mentioning the mission being "another bug hunt"? What about Weyland Corp's understanding that extraterrestrial entities do indeed exist (hence the SO?). Just because they don't buy Ripley's specific story doesn't automatically mean there is no chance of other alien entities (with which there has not yet been an encounter) becoming a potential threat. Or am I to believe the USMC in this universe is self-contradictory?
I also don't get the "low-level" response angle. Its still a Military platoon that is sufficiently equipped to engage an enemy. Gorman's presence was due to Burke if I'm not mistaken.
QuoteYou seem to be working under the assumption that whenever communication is lost with a person or place, people run in there wearing hazmat suits (cause, I mean, it could be due to aliens, right?). Nobody does that. You get hazmat suits when you know for a fact that you're dealing with an alien organism because only then the situation might change, as is the case in the scene from The Mist you previously mentioned.
This is not what I'm assuming. I'm not assuming that hazmat suits are needed "whenever communication is lost with a person or place". But in this particular instance, I do believe the overall situation warranted it.
QuoteIn comparison, knowingly walking into an alien environment you expect to be vulnerable to all kinds of threats, from microbes your immune system can't handle to literal alien organisms you've never encountered. This much has been common knowledge at the very least since the discovery of America. There's also the meta element at play here, where exposure to an alien environment simply due the air being breathable has been a source for criticism against the previous film, yet they go even further with this stupidity in Covenant.
Yes, I never defended Covenant in this regard.
@The Cruentus:
QuoteThis. The known issue as far as everyone but Ripley and Burke knew was that they simply lost contact with the colony, sure it could have been anything from simple transmitter issue to "possibly" alien plague or some viral pathogen outbreak but they would have no reason to think the latter because the moon was a known and surveryed area and before then, the rock was dead with no indigneous life.
Plus even after the atmosphere processor was up and running, it was still a dead and lifeless rock, it would be unlikely for pathogens to be there because viruses require living organsism to function, and since the planet was completely dead up until the few decades worth of colonization, it would be unlikely something evolved in that time to infect someone.
This does not exclude external influences such as the Xeno.
QuoteHowever, I personally would have given the moon a good recon with every possible scanner first.
But it is understandable they didn't because in real life, I don't think they send the CDC or hazmat teams simply because one loses contact with an established base, especially if they have been given some intel of a physical threat, The Marines were given some intel by Ripley so they knew or at least considered that the threat was physical and not viral
You cannot compare this situation reliably with real life. I don't think it'd be unreasonable to have at least one additional layer of safety precaution of wearing hazmat suits when dealing with dangerous alien lifeforms. The point on the Marines receiving some intel by Ripley is contradictory. If the intel is anything to go by, it would be presumptuous on the part of the USMC to assume the threat is entirely physical with no chance of any viral attributes developing overtime in such an organism. Didn't Ripley mention they have acid for blood?
Quote from: SMWhat would 'small-scale but specialised investigation unit' being investigating? A downed transmitter?
So a military platoon is needed for looking into a downed transmitter? Not sure I understood your question correctly.
Quote from: irnI recall there being some background info about why the Marines were sent there and it was to do with them being a small group who were en route either to or from R&R, during a campaign elsewhere. It was logistically the best solution to get an armed force there quickest. If I remember rightly it was from that Colonial Marines Technical Manual book. Anyone who has it care to correct or confirm?
I'll concede the point on why Marines were sent instead of a smaller team if this is indeed the case.
Guys, let's be honest. Covenant is the last Scott Alien movie and there is no way they gonna make sequel. Just the feeling.
I don't know if anyone has asked that question before but why there was only one lander aboard Covenant which was the colonisation ship. Or have I missed something?
Quote from: bb-15 on Jul 01, 2018, 02:24:38 AM
Quote from: Still Collating... on Jun 30, 2018, 03:39:05 PM
This. I personally don't have a big problem with their behavior, even though I'm longing for smart characters more and more, but Scott can't just insist that they are scientists and the best in their fields when he does not portray the characters like scientists at all.
In the Alien movies the scientists/science officers/knowledgeable characters sometimes don't act in a reasonable way (imo based on my university education).
- These films have fictional characters which serve the story.
Their behavior may imitate actions by people in our world but just as often the characters are following horror/action/adventure cliches.
* Any time a space alien creature is in contact with humans there is a chance of airborne infection. Space aliens can have viruses / bacteria to which a can human have no immunity.
- One of the first alien / human science fiction contact stories was "War of the Worlds". And in that novel, the aliens died because of this problem, disease from a different species which for them was humanity.
** Let's apply this idea of virus / bacteria precautions in some Alien movies.
* "Alien"; Xenomorph is inside the ship. No one is wearing helmets. (I'll put Ash aside since he didn't care if the crew died.)
But Ripley is no dummy and she had expertise with quarantine protocols.
This is elementary science to try to prevent airborne infection.
Precaution fail.
* "Aliens"; the Xenomorph Queen is found which is an unknown alien creature.
Again, Ripley knows quarantine procedure. But she, Newt, the Marines, Burke don't wear helmets on LV-426.
Precaution fail.
* "Prometheus"; here we have the only test of the air in the tunnels for bacteria / impurities with the instruments of David, Ford and Holloway.
It turned out that Holloway's theory was right, the air was being cleaned by Engineer tech. David confirmed the safety of the tunnel air later in the movie with Weyland.
This was the only time where the air in an Alien franchise movie was tested and found to be safe.
Precaution win.
* "Covenant"; There is an unknown planet and the instruments show that the air is clean.
What is the problem? Deadly mold spores infected with black goo. It's not an air problem but an animal attack problem.
This is similar to a classic Star Trek trope where the crew goes to a planet; it seems to be safe but some plant attacked the crew.
Precaution fail.
* But the worst scientist fail I leave for "Alien 4" where a scientist puts 3 Xenomorphs in the same cage for an experiment.
Xenomorphs carry a large set of razor sharp teeth which could easily cut into the flesh of another creature even by accident causing it to bleed.
The Xenos also have acid blood which can eat through any substance made by humanity, even futuristic / advanced humanity.
- Logically from a science perspective, the experiment would never have more than one Xeno in a cage.
Triple precaution fail.
* But taking all precautions is not the purpose of these movies. Almost all of the characters are supposed to die.
So the story has certain basic precautions being ignored.
(Also, no helmets allows characters to be more easy to see.)
Sometimes precaution fails are there so the characters will die.
* Considering that; I don't see "Covenant" or "Prometheus" being any worse that the previous Alien films in terms of the crews taking unnecessary risks.
;)
I actually agree with all your points. Especially about Alien Rez, which is what I was getting at. Those "scientists" acted more naive than any of the previous characters IMO. And they should be more cautious than any other non scientific personnel in the previous movies.
That's exactly why I don't like Scott proclaiming in Covenant (maybe even in Prometheus) that they are mostly all scientists and "the best of the best". That is very different to space truckers and overconfident military grunts.
I personally don't believe the crew of the Prometheus and Covenant are the biggest idiots ever seen. As you pointed out, in the previous 4 movies characters have just as well made not the smartest decisions and I either don't notice it at first or it just doesn't bother me because I want to enjoy the movies, including Prometheus and Covenant.
But it does irk me when Scott says his new characters are the best of the best when they are clearly not shown to be and are not in any way more professional than the characters in the previous movies which have clearly shown how human fallacy and ignorance brought them down.
I have no problem with the characters in the prequels, just with the part about them being the best of the best. :laugh:
What I wanted to say in my previous post as well was I'd just like to see a new movie where the characters make smart or even the smartest possible decisions and still lose to the alien and other antagonists. Just out of curiosity, why not have characters make smarter decisions than their occupation requires from them, as a sort of novelty? Then each kill the alien makes would show us how futile it is to fight it and if the main character escapes it could feel earned. Yes, that would require a very talented righter perhaps, but that's what I'd like to see. ;D
I imagine that unless Scott passes away, he will get a chance to do another.
You know something that's been bugging me about Aliens, but I've never seen anyone complain about...
Why does absolutely no one remain on the Sulaco? They have this massive military vessel hauling a handful of marines and a couple of drop ships and one of the drop ships takes every single marine down to the surface, just leaving this huge vessel floating in space unmanned.
Having every single member of the crew leave the ship seems like an invitation to get stranded... like they do.
Good point. My guess is the squad of marines is not very big. So sending 2 transport vessels wouldn't be practical. Or if an attack was necessary having the small squad together would be a more effective attack than 2 small groups? The Colonial Marines may have thought this more of an exercise than an actual mission. A perfunctory response to a large corporation's request. Even having another A I on board would have made sense at the least. The computer on the Sulaco could have been monitoring the marines knowing deaths,injuries & loss of equipment. So it could report back?
Quote from: necrotard on Jul 01, 2018, 05:36:36 PM
You know something that's been bugging me about Aliens, but I've never seen anyone complain about...
Why does absolutely no one remain on the Sulaco?
You've seriously never seen anyone complain about that? :laugh:
Yeah, that's always been an issue for me. Just like the marines not having spare mags for their Pulse Rifles.
I chalk both of those up to the situation simply being not taken very seriously by the marines. The movie takes plenty of time to establish that these marines are really low on morale and discipline, and that they do not take Ripley even remotely seriously. Hell, even Gorman tries to leverage his spot with the group by going "Yeah. Okay. Right." To Ripley's remarks.
It's obvious, given the size of the Sulaco, that it's intended to carry far more personnel than it is on this particular mission. At least double.
Am I crazy or have we never seen a bathroom in the alien universe? Maybe the shower room in AC but no toilets if i remember right... is there even a bathroom shown on fan made blue prints for the Nostromo?
QuoteSo a military platoon is needed for looking into a downed transmitter? Not sure I understood your question correctly.
It's the job of marines to protect America interests in space - be they down transmitters of whether there's a 'Xenomorph' involved.
If you have someone who already has this job - why do you need a 'specialised investigation unit'? What are they specialised in investigating?
Quote from: necrotard on Jul 01, 2018, 05:36:36 PM
You know something that's been bugging me about Aliens, but I've never seen anyone complain about...
Why does absolutely no one remain on the Sulaco? They have this massive military vessel hauling a handful of marines and a couple of drop ships and one of the drop ships takes every single marine down to the surface, just leaving this huge vessel floating in space unmanned.
Having every single member of the crew leave the ship seems like an invitation to get stranded... like they do.
They have contingencies that can be used should they get stranded... which they do.
Quote from: SM on Jun 21, 2018, 10:38:21 PM
Mr H cracked the shits with Scified for some clickbait at the end of last year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZPlrUxxOJo
Does anyone know who drew/created and who edited or accepted the image depicted for this video?
Also, who accepted as the main marketing image for the franchise? Just wondering lol.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 01, 2018, 08:04:53 PM
Am I crazy or have we never seen a bathroom in the alien universe? Maybe the shower room in AC but no toilets if i remember right... is there even a bathroom shown on fan made blue prints for the Nostromo?
Good point. All these f**king hack directors have no understanding of Giger's marvelous toilet art. Can we please erase ALL the f**king Alien movies and hand the reins over to a director who knows how to handle the franchise correctly?
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-QdUPgQM53Yk%2FU2Yx-uFz-EI%2FAAAAAAAALAQ%2FYYncHkD7KT0%2Fs1600%2F125.jpg&hash=1be77dc7a65e40410278ddc7e6ff9fd68bfed070)
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 01, 2018, 08:04:53 PM
Am I crazy or have we never seen a bathroom in the alien universe? Maybe the shower room in AC but no toilets if i remember right... is there even a bathroom shown on fan made blue prints for the Nostromo?
Graham's blueprints are external. Fen Giddel did some blueprints yonks ago that included bogs on A Deck.
From deep within the Yonks, er, Nostromo Files...
(https://thenostromofilesblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/a_deck_callouts-bathroom-closeup1.png)
And I pray to everlovin' Jaysus that Graham does a better job than this... :)
I believe Alien Isolation had bathrooms.
Ward's Alien 3 had the epicest toilet scene eva.
Quote from: SM on Jul 02, 2018, 03:56:36 AM
Ward's Alien 3 had the epicest toilet scene eva.
That still needs to be filmed. If that one scene is the entire movie, I'd still pay to see it. It's just off the hook in every possible way.
Alien: Colonvent
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 01, 2018, 08:04:53 PMAm I crazy or have we never seen a bathroom in the alien universe?
Alien 3 had a few bathrooms. We even nearly saw actual toilets...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.coinbox.com.au%2Fforty%2FUntitled-3.jpg&hash=2e32240c140bb6259f57170da8b2e252d95c5324)
I would have thought they were kennels.
Quote from: No Name on Jul 01, 2018, 09:10:13 AM
You cannot compare this situation reliably with real life. I don't think it'd be unreasonable to have at least one additional layer of safety precaution of wearing hazmat suits when dealing with dangerous alien lifeforms. The point on the Marines receiving some intel by Ripley is contradictory. If the intel is anything to go by, it would be presumptuous on the part of the USMC to assume the threat is entirely physical with no chance of any viral attributes developing overtime in such an organism. Didn't Ripley mention they have acid for blood?
It is not unreasonable no, but given the Marine's attitude and the intel they have been given from someone who has been exposed to the Alien with no ill effect, it is understandable that they didn't consider a possible viral outbreak. Ripley mentioned more than that as her talk with the marines was only a brief summary, the marines were given a more indepth file or something.
Quote from: bb-15 on Jul 01, 2018, 02:24:38 AM
Quote from: Still Collating... on Jun 30, 2018, 03:39:05 PM
This. I personally don't have a big problem with their behavior, even though I'm longing for smart characters more and more, but Scott can't just insist that they are scientists and the best in their fields when he does not portray the characters like scientists at all.
In the Alien movies the scientists/science officers/knowledgeable characters sometimes don't act in a reasonable way (imo based on my university education).
- These films have fictional characters which serve the story.
Their behavior may imitate actions by people in our world but just as often the characters are following horror/action/adventure cliches.
* Any time a space alien creature is in contact with humans there is a chance of airborne infection. Space aliens can have viruses / bacteria where a human can have no immunity.
- One of the first alien / human science fiction contact stories was "War of the Worlds". And in that novel, the aliens died because of this problem, disease from a different species which for them was humanity.
** Let's apply this idea of virus / bacteria precautions in some Alien movies.
* "Alien"; Xenomorph is inside the ship. No one is wearing helmets. (I'll put Ash aside since he didn't care if the crew died.)
But Ripley is no dummy and she had expertise with quarantine protocols.
This is elementary science to try to prevent airborne infection.
Precaution fail.
* "Aliens"; the Xenomorph Queen is found which is an unknown alien creature.
Again, Ripley knows quarantine procedure. But she, Newt, the Marines, Burke don't wear helmets on LV-426.
Precaution fail.
* "Prometheus"; here we have the only test of the air in the tunnels for bacteria / impurities with the instruments of David, Ford and Holloway.
It turned out that Holloway's theory was right, the air was being cleaned by Engineer tech. David confirmed the safety of the tunnel air later in the movie with Weyland.
This was the only time where the air in an Alien franchise movie was tested and found to be safe.
Precaution win.
* "Covenant"; There is an unknown planet and the instruments show that the air is clean.
What is the problem? Deadly mold spores infected with black goo. It's not an air problem but an animal attack problem.
This is similar to a classic Star Trek trope where the crew goes to a planet; it seems to be safe but some plant attacked the crew.
Precaution fail.
* But the worst scientist fail I leave for "Alien 4" where a scientist puts 3 Xenomorphs in the same cage for an experiment.
Xenomorphs carry a large set of razor sharp teeth which could easily cut into the flesh of another creature even by accident causing it to bleed.
The Xenos also have acid blood which can eat through any substance made by humanity, even futuristic / advanced humanity.
- Logically from a science perspective, the experiment would never have more than one Xeno in a cage.
Triple precaution fail.
* But taking all precautions is not the purpose of these movies. Almost all of the characters are supposed to die.
So the story has certain basic precautions being ignored.
(Also, no helmets allows characters to be more easy to see.)
Sometimes precaution fails are there so the characters will die.
* Considering that; I don't see "Covenant" or "Prometheus" being any worse that the previous Alien films in terms of the crews taking unnecessary risks.
;)
The first two movies however did have a character repeatedly acknowledge quarantine and bring up safety measures/warnings but Ripley was undermined/ignored three times. First by Ash in the first movie and secondly by the company board in the second movie and later by gorman in "the area is secure" scene.
In both those movies as well, there was factors working against the quarantine/safety. Ash and Burke. Not to say the first two movies didn't have issues but the set ups do give an understandable context. The marines for example, are veterans but are very unprofessional and undisciplined,. I mean they fire their armor piercing ammo filled guns from the hip!. Which is highly dangerous and reckless.
Also Dallas and Ash did wear masks when they has the Facehugger inside so there is that little tidbit but no one else does later on, probably because what's done is done.
Covenant did have Daniels question Oram about his decision but after that and brought up the issues that they had only trained for Origae 6 after that however, she doesn't raise any quarantine or safety issues if I recall, in fact she tied herself to the an airbourne lander and could have gotten herself killed numerous times. In real life, I am pretty sure the force of being yanked around like that could either kill you or severly injure you.
I agree that Resurrection was hopeless , I mean these guys went through eight clones and probably decades worth of attempts just to get their hands on the Xenomorphs and they don't even prepare or have any precautions for their acid. Well the fact that they just left the bodies of the hosts to rot in a room without disposal shows their laziness. And you can't they didn't know about the Aliens because they seemed to know Ripley's history so they must have read her reports and any other reports on it.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jul 02, 2018, 12:13:35 PMI would have thought they were kennels.
They do look kind of like dog racing gates, but I just see a row of shitters. ;D
You're not going to have bogs in an abbatoir.
Quote from: SM on Jul 02, 2018, 08:07:06 PM
You're not going to have bogs in an abbatoir.
What about Rains?
...Golic?
CIGARETTES...!
(https://www.aliensrpg.com/assets/img/characters/alien3-boggs.jpg)
"I'd give it five minutes, brother. And don't light no candles."
"In space no one can hear you shit."
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jul 02, 2018, 11:51:52 PM
"In space no one can hear you shit."
Oh they'd hear it, I doubt people would say anything though. It's just bad manners. And when you're talking about a habitat full of large rapists, I think it would be wise to keep all holes shut as much as possible. ;)
Flushing however, might be more likely to go unnoticed.
OT. Like in the worst way.
It's the future guys. The toilets are just for show. Merely a forgotten relic from the past. Since I'm certain there's a vaccine for having to take a dump by now.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jul 05, 2018, 08:21:42 PM
It's the future guys. The toilets are just for show. Merely a forgotten relic from the past. Since I'm certain there's a vaccine for having to take a dump by now.
No wonder those guys on the Prometheus were so full of shit.
This was used as a joke in the original Colonial Marines comics when Henry asked Liston the droid where the toilet was on the ship and Liston locked up.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jul 05, 2018, 08:21:42 PM
It's the future guys. The toilets are just for show. Merely a forgotten relic from the past. Since I'm certain there's a vaccine for having to take a dump by now.
Someone doesn't know how to use the three seashells. :D
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jul 05, 2018, 09:00:46 PM
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jul 05, 2018, 08:21:42 PM
It's the future guys. The toilets are just for show. Merely a forgotten relic from the past. Since I'm certain there's a vaccine for having to take a dump by now.
No wonder those guys on the Prometheus were so full of shit.
God that sounds like a nightmare version of the Jetsons to me.
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 05, 2018, 11:09:22 PM
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jul 05, 2018, 08:21:42 PM
It's the future guys. The toilets are just for show. Merely a forgotten relic from the past. Since I'm certain there's a vaccine for having to take a dump by now.
Someone doesn't know how to use the three seashells. :D
Then I suggest swearing so someone can use the paper fines for violating the verbal morality statute :laugh:
Now the question must be asked. Does WY have it's name on all of the toilets and toilet paper found in the alien universe?
Lol, WY brand toilet paper. :laugh: I so need that in my life.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jul 06, 2018, 09:04:39 AM
Now the question must be asked. Does WY have it's name on all of the toilets and toilet paper found in the alien universe?
(https://i.imgur.com/28SISvi.jpg)
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jul 06, 2018, 09:04:39 AM
Now the question must be asked. Does WY have it's name on all of the toilets and toilet paper found in the alien universe?
"Building better worlds... And creating better toilet paper"
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jul 07, 2018, 02:43:19 AM
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jul 06, 2018, 09:04:39 AM
Now the question must be asked. Does WY have it's name on all of the toilets and toilet paper found in the alien universe?
"Building better worlds... And creating better toilet paper"
Do androids wipe their asses too? The questions! How can one stake a claim to being made to resemble humans if one can not shit themselves?
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jul 07, 2018, 02:43:19 AM
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jul 06, 2018, 09:04:39 AM
Now the question must be asked. Does WY have it's name on all of the toilets and toilet paper found in the alien universe?
"Building better worlds... And creating better toilet paper"
"Wiping Better Butts"
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jul 06, 2018, 07:54:28 AM
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 05, 2018, 11:09:22 PM
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jul 05, 2018, 08:21:42 PM
It's the future guys. The toilets are just for show. Merely a forgotten relic from the past. Since I'm certain there's a vaccine for having to take a dump by now.
Someone doesn't know how to use the three seashells. :D
Then I suggest swearing so someone can use the paper fines for violating the verbal morality statute :laugh:
"No ma'am, it's not Tourette's Syndrome, I just have to poop".
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jul 07, 2018, 05:01:18 AM
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jul 07, 2018, 02:43:19 AM
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jul 06, 2018, 09:04:39 AM
Now the question must be asked. Does WY have it's name on all of the toilets and toilet paper found in the alien universe?
"Building better worlds... And creating better toilet paper"
Do androids wipe their asses too? The questions! How can one stake a claim to being made to resemble humans if one can not shit themselves?
Random fact: David has no anus. Source: https://gothic-fiction-in-space.tumblr.com/post/166001461858/imagine-the-scene-the-poor-little-horned-worm (https://gothic-fiction-in-space.tumblr.com/post/166001461858/imagine-the-scene-the-poor-little-horned-worm)
How does he excrete his porridge?
Great. He's a space bulimic.
So... if David has no rangus... what about a dingus?
Can't blame the dude for being so sexually frustrated then.
Quote from: SM on Jul 07, 2018, 07:38:22 AM
How does he excrete his porridge?
I imagine he'd be like a cat, and just vomit what his body cannot process.
Charming.
Quote from: MU-TH-UR 6000 on Jul 07, 2018, 09:57:45 AM
So... if David has no rangus... what about a dingus?
Can't blame the dude for being so sexually frustrated then.
Well I believe that's the point with David, he doesn't have a penis, therefore, he is sexually frustrated.
I think the character has progressed since 2012 with the Alien: Covenant storyline. As evidenced in the crossing script pre-covenant.
Peter Travers: What kind of penis does David the android have?Michael Fassbender: Well I mean, I really didn't go down that route. I thought of him more like Ken. There's nothing down there.
Peter Travers: There's a vibe that he is in love with Noomi Rapace's characterMichael Fassbender: David is for the most part asexual. He's a curiosity junkie, it's all information to him.Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXevjlAJYjQ&feature=youtu.be
Not only that, the point of Ash malfunctioning was because he too didn't have any sexual appendages.
https://muthur9000.tumblr.com/post/163225761495/ash-david-facts (https://muthur9000.tumblr.com/post/163225761495/ash-david-facts)
It was the most common question asked so I had to do a bit of research. But I think by the time Aliens(Bueller in Earth Hive) comes around and the events of The Cold Forge (Marcus) Weyland Yutani now produce androids with an anatomically correct body. But not counting the EU there is the only evidence that perhaps Annalee Call was the only android made 'whole' being made my other AI's she was part of the new Robot race the Autons.
Ash was following orders.
Quote from: SM on Jul 07, 2018, 10:54:02 AM
Ash was following orders.
That and he was malfunctioning.
The way he behaves after Ripley confronted him is erratic and not the cold, efficiency you would expect from a machine that is programmed to keep the Alien alive by any means necessary.
I would say his orders were conflicting with his personality or other programs of not killing people but Bishop states that the "not harming human by action or in action" is somewhat recent. "That could never happen now with our behavioral inhibitors"
Even without behavioural inhibitors; killing crew members wouldn't likely be something they'd have programming for.
Quote from: MU-TH-UR 6000 on Jul 07, 2018, 09:57:45 AM
So... if David has no rangus... what about a dingus?
Can't blame the dude for being so sexually frustrated then.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_mbhzc4PGAy1rx10joo2_250.gif&hash=1ae6e9ac0189f1e8fe7544ed387f2ef6)
Maybe David's digestive system is like a blender. He can eat raw produce and poop it out as juice.
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jul 07, 2018, 03:31:13 PM
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_mbhzc4PGAy1rx10joo2_250.gif&hash=1ae6e9ac0189f1e8fe7544ed387f2ef6
I heard that in Fassbender's whispery David tone. That was... Chilling. Magnificent.
16"?! I guess the trick really is not minding that it hurts.
Quote from: muthur9000 on Jul 07, 2018, 10:39:07 AM
Quote from: MU-TH-UR 6000 on Jul 07, 2018, 09:57:45 AM
So... if David has no rangus... what about a dingus?
Can't blame the dude for being so sexually frustrated then.
Well I believe that's the point with David, he doesn't have a penis, therefore, he is sexually frustrated.
I think the character has progressed since 2012 with the Alien: Covenant storyline. As evidenced in the crossing script pre-covenant.
Peter Travers: What kind of penis does David the android have?
Michael Fassbender: Well I mean, I really didn't go down that route. I thought of him more like Ken. There's nothing down there.
Peter Travers: There's a vibe that he is in love with Noomi Rapace's character
Michael Fassbender: David is for the most part asexual. He's a curiosity junkie, it's all information to him.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXevjlAJYjQ&feature=youtu.be
Not only that, the point of Ash malfunctioning was because he too didn't have any sexual appendages.
https://muthur9000.tumblr.com/post/163225761495/ash-david-facts (https://muthur9000.tumblr.com/post/163225761495/ash-david-facts)
It was the most common question asked so I had to do a bit of research. But I think by the time Aliens(Bueller in Earth Hive) comes around and the events of The Cold Forge (Marcus) Weyland Yutani now produce androids with an anatomically correct body. But not counting the EU there is the only evidence that perhaps Annalee Call was the only android made 'whole' being made my other AI's she was part of the new Robot race the Autons.
I know! It's one of the reasons why I've grown fonder of David creating a giant penis monster in Covenant, that is able to self-replicate unlike himself. Gotta respect a hands-on-approach kinda dude that doesn't allow his frustrations to stop progress.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 07, 2018, 06:18:17 PM
16"?! I guess the trick really is not minding that it hurts.
You havent seen Shame, have you? ::)
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 07, 2018, 06:18:17 PM
16"?! I guess the trick really is not minding that it hurts.
Just like his creations, he's a grower not a shower.
Quote from: MU-TH-UR 6000 on Jul 07, 2018, 07:15:51 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 07, 2018, 06:18:17 PM
16"?! I guess the trick really is not minding that it hurts.
You havent seen Shame, have you? ::)
I see it every time I look in the mirror. :-\
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 07, 2018, 06:18:17 PM
16"?! I guess the trick really is not minding that it hurts.
:laugh: So that's where he got the idea of the extendable inner jaw...
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 07, 2018, 08:13:13 PM
Quote from: MU-TH-UR 6000 on Jul 07, 2018, 07:15:51 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 07, 2018, 06:18:17 PM
16"?! I guess the trick really is not minding that it hurts.
You havent seen Shame, have you? ::)
I see it every time I look in the mirror. :-\
(https://i.chzbgr.com/full/5383156992/h22D22C22/)
Quote from: The Eighth Passenger on Jul 07, 2018, 03:31:13 PM
Quote from: MU-TH-UR 6000 on Jul 07, 2018, 09:57:45 AM
So... if David has no rangus... what about a dingus?
Can't blame the dude for being so sexually frustrated then.
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_mbhzc4PGAy1rx10joo2_250.gif&hash=1ae6e9ac0189f1e8fe7544ed387f2ef6
I was going to post that. :laugh:
I think that perhaps what he's eating is just some special android maintenance goop. It breaks down in his system and it's used for lubrication or as the white fluid perhaps.
But does he just keep filling up on it without having it go anywhere? Maybe they sweat? They sure grow hair...
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 07, 2018, 05:14:00 PM
Maybe David's digestive system is like a blender. He can eat raw produce and poop it out as juice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cUS-wEU6FA
Dear God, did you have to post that? Now I've got, "Hey, how's it goin? This is my butthole..." stuck in my head. :D
What if I wind up saying it when answering the phone at work?
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 07, 2018, 10:11:53 PM
Dear God, did you have to post that? Now I've got, "Hey, how's it goin? This is my butthole..." stuck in my head. :D
What if I wind up saying it when answering the phone at work?
Then my work will be done.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Jul 07, 2018, 11:20:16 PM
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 07, 2018, 10:11:53 PM
Dear God, did you have to post that? Now I've got, "Hey, how's it goin? This is my butthole..." stuck in my head. :D
What if I wind up saying it when answering the phone at work?
Then my work will be done.
And so will mine, permanently. :D
(https://media.makeameme.org/created/yall-got-any-5b4eaf.jpg)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/O38dU2kkQ9sWc/giphy.gif)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.4pcdn.org%2Ftv%2F1492803260894.gif&hash=da9b6aea6422fe5cb4d4e2412c7c49f84b5a6697)
(https://i.imgur.com/b7XH02Q.jpg)
Andrew Gaska, who we had on our Prometheus episode of the poddy, shared this on Prequel Paradise -
(https://i.imgur.com/BzK7se4.png)
Interesting, so if he really got the authority to say that then that means Alien, Predator and AVP is three distinct "universes/continuity".
I suppose that is for the best, it means if something bad happens to one, not all with be affected. This should please Alien and Predator fans who want to keep a seperate continuity.
It's also for legal reasons. Even though Fox owns the IP for both creatures, the actual movie rights rest with the producers of the films. John Davis co-produced the Predator movies, but he had to get the rights for the Alien movies before he could make AvP. Since he isn't listed as a producer on the Alien prequels while Giler and Hill are, I'm guessing he only got the rights insofar as making AvP films were concerned.
Well it seems this finally answers the question. Scott will have one more film to close the trilogy. Hopefully this pans out and we get to see the engineers one last time unleashing hell on David and the colonists on the Covenant or Origae 6.
That's good news but it's still probably gonna take a while to happen given Ridles tight schedule for the next couple of years.
Quote from: MU-TH-UR 6000 on Jul 19, 2018, 01:25:35 PM
That's good news but it's still probably gonna take a while to happen given Ridles tight schedule for the next couple of years.
Plus the whole Disney thing is another can of worms. Though, Scott is known to be frugal and dropping one project to do another one. For example, he dropped The Cartel film to Merlin. So, that could happen here.
I'm happy to hear this. Of course, I'm still scared what Scott might do to the franchise if he goes too far, but I do want to see another movie to finish David's story. Lets just hope he does it right and David gets the ending he deserves.
I'd like for the alien to be biomechanical and close to the original this time if they're still going with "David created them". I liked both prequels, but I do feel the Alien wasn't handled well in Covenant. In this last movie of the trilogy I hope they show why the Alien is so deadly and worthy of the title "perfect organism". That does not mean to make him completely bulletproof or to completely regenerate when chopped to pieces. That's lazy writing. Make him fierce by his behavior and predatory intelligence.
Long story short, please get a good writer for this who knows what they're doing and I'll be glad to see where the next story takes us.
Quote from: Still Collating... on Jul 19, 2018, 02:36:57 PM
I'm happy to hear this. Of course, I'm still scared what Scott might do to the franchise if he goes too far, but I do want to see another movie to finish David's story. Lets just hope he does it right and David gets the ending he deserves.
Long story short, please get a good writer for this who knows what they're doing and I'll be glad to see where the next story takes us.
I agree. For this film, I'd bring in a person who is fan of the franchise to amend some of the issues from the other two films. Though, in the same time, deliver a script close to
BR2049 that nicely closes the trilogy.
I don't want Scott to ever have the opportunity to solidify with certainty that David created the alien.
Quote from: OpenMaw on Jul 19, 2018, 03:16:12 PM
I don't want Scott to ever have the opportunity to solidify with certainty that David created the alien.
If David had created the Predator, nobody would defend Scott.
What if David created [insert random creature]?
:laugh:
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jul 19, 2018, 11:19:21 AM
Andrew Gaska, who we had on our Prometheus episode of the poddy, shared this on Prequel Paradise -
(https://i.imgur.com/BzK7se4.png)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reactiongifs.com%2Fr%2Fchuff.gif&hash=41b7f3f3914f989a5f5cb5b761c4aae5e6ff67e5)
So it's 100% confirmed Scott is doing another one? Cool. :)
The chat continued and Andrew revealed some details that we had suspected a while back.
Hell, not that it's likely but Ridley Scott's been known in the past to make a film well enough that midway in production it's budget has been doubled.
I think it was a horror called "creature" or something back in 1979.
Feel a bit uneasy about trusting facebook screenshots, but still, fingers crossed for more embryo-kino
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alien-covenant.com%2Faliencovenant_uploads%2F0230.jpg&hash=313b8950e3ed42ff059de447f271d0e9750a691a)
I would take it with a pinch of salt.
As far as I know, David only vomited up two small "eggs" with two mini facehuggers in them.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Jul 19, 2018, 07:40:30 PM
I would take it with a pinch of salt.
As far as I know, David only vomited up two small "eggs" with two mini facehuggers in them.
Yes, it's a concept art piece. What I want is
more embryos.
I love A-3371.
But I'm certain that image is merely a concept piece, regardless- if a single Facehugger contains Plagiarus Praepotens/the pathogen in some form and considering the technology David Eight has access to, he'd perhaps only need the one to create- far, far more- even in the absence of a Royal/Praetorian Facehugger.
Substantially reduced budget? :-\. I hope Ridley can still make an epic finale.
Quote from: Evanus on Jul 19, 2018, 08:06:02 PM
Substantially reduced budget? :-\. I hope Ridley can still make an epic finale.
Andrew did mention they're ways that something with the engineers and xenos could be done with a low budget. Scott and co need to be creative about it.
the Alien series has been known for its films with minimal budgets. I'd say go old school with miniature models, man in suit, character driven, with minimal to no no cgi. It can be done. We only need a good script to close the trilogy.
The only Alien flicks with what could be called 'minimal budgets' were the AvP movies.
Quote from: SM on Jul 19, 2018, 10:17:41 PM
The only Alien flicks with what could be called 'minimal budgets' were the AvP movies.
True, if I remember correctly, AVPR's budget was less than half of Covenant. I doubt we'll see actors on a stage with outfits and weapons made from construction paper and shouting their own sound effects like "bang bang!" All the while, Ridley is filming everything with an old video camera from 1997 and yelling "brilliant!"
I hope they get on this quick though. It's time to "put an amen" to these prequels.
You could still make a decent Alien flick on a reduced budget, but I feel if you go sub-$80m these days it could really start to show.
Most actors were known faces. Cutting down on those should reduce the budget.
Waterston is left but she's going the Shaw way. So I doubt she'll get a lot of screentime.
McBride can be killed off. Leaving Fassy as the only known name.
Can't be that difficult to find cheap but good talent to complete the rest of the cast.
Anyway, I think it'll be ok.
Sidenote: Anyone see The Creature Below? Decent Lovecraftian horror made for only 16 000£.
Shows what people can do when they have enough passion and squeeze every penny.
It's not just the cast.
AvP:R didn't have any big names, but look at how the creatures effects came off in that film. ADI are masters of their craft, but they can be undone by bad performances, cinematography and editing.
By substantially reduce budget I take that to mean 50 Million. I don't know, I think that might actually help Ridley to focus on making a good movie and prevent his mind from wondering off.
Quote from: SM on Jul 20, 2018, 12:41:27 AM
It's not just the cast.
AvP:R didn't have any big names, but look at how the creatures effects came off in that film. ADI are masters of their craft, but they can be undone by bad performances, cinematography and editing.
Can't comment on AvP:R. Only saw it once and I'm lucky enough I barely remember anything from that movie.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jul 20, 2018, 01:04:39 AM
By substantially reduce budget I take that to mean 50 Million. I don't know, I think that might actually help Ridley to focus on making a good movie and prevent his mind from wondering off.
Exactly. With this 'reduced budget' they've forced Scott and his writers to get a top notch script to focus on David and possibly Walter (if the Walter character is used again) and make sure to squeeze every penny and show it on screen via miniature models, cheating sets, creative camera angles/use of various lenses, lightning, use of practicals, man in suit for the Xeno and two or three military engineers (that's if they show up with Walter ) to wreck havoc on the Covenant.
As I believe I stated before in this very thread, the original Alien- even adjusted for inflation didn't have a massive budget.
RS was only able to convince FOX to double the budget part-way through production, if the script and execution is as good there's no reason something similar couldn't happen again.
Quote from: The Old One on Jul 20, 2018, 01:52:04 AM
As I believe I stated before in this very thread, the original Alien- even adjusted for inflation didn't have a massive budget.
RS was only able to convince FOX to double the budget part-way through production, if the script and execution is as good there's no reason something similar couldn't happen again.
I totally agree. It all will depend on the script and how that translates into the dailies. Perhaps that is the reason why we haven't heard anything. They're trying to fine tune that script to get it in shooting form.
Alien had a decent budget for its time. The average budget in 1978 was around $5m (http://www.filmsite.org/70sintro.html), so even before Fox bumped it up based on the storyboards, it was decent.
Wouldn't mind an additional kickstarter campaign. Who wouldn't like their name in the credits of an Alien movie.
Even without I'd gladly donate.
Crowd funding for one of the richest corporations in the world?
Quote from: SM on Jul 20, 2018, 02:59:56 AM
Crowd funding for one of the richest corporations in the world?
If a bigger budget would result in a better movie, why not?
Because it's ridiculous?
If you say so.
Quote from: SM on Jul 20, 2018, 02:59:56 AM
Crowd funding for one of the richest corporations in the world?
I felt robbed enough after watching the prequels for the first time. And at $25 for a movie, they don't need anymore of my money.
Doing something like this would set a bad precedent. Dangle a lower budget and make the fans panic, and get half your movie paid for.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jul 20, 2018, 03:49:32 AM
If you say so.
Oh, but I do!
Throw some money at the kickstarter and you get to watch the whole movie. If not you can watch the first act and half the second act, and pay for the rest as DLC.
I always wanted to help fund a studio executive's cocaine habit. What better way than crowdfunding a low budget flick?
Quote from: SM on Jul 20, 2018, 03:53:15 AM
...
Throw some money at the kickstarter and you get to watch the whole movie. If not you can watch the first act and half the second act, and pay for the rest as DLC.
LOL! That's so funny!
...No wait, that is a joke... right?
TC
Quote from: The Old One on Jul 19, 2018, 07:33:21 PM
Hell, not that it's likely but Ridley Scott's been known in the past to make a film well enough that midway in production it's budget has been doubled.
I think it was a horror called "creature" or something back in 1979.
Quote from: The Old One on Jul 20, 2018, 01:52:04 AM
As I believe I stated before in this very thread, the original Alien- even adjusted for inflation didn't have a massive budget.
RS was only able to convince FOX to double the budget part-way through production, if the script and execution is as good there's no reason something similar couldn't happen again.
The problem is Ridley Scott. He does not have the same support frame work around him as he did in 1979. He's completely free range now, and can do whatever the cluck he wants. Which is a problem, because what he wants to do changes day to day. Not having people like O'Bannon there, hard asses with direct opinions, he tends to meander and generate very messy, albeit beautiful, work.
I don't imagine O'Bannon had a huge influence on Ridley's style.
He got banned from the set.
Wait, wut? I didn't know he was literally banned from set. Always thought that was just an off the cuff remark.
Well he said it and that he had to sneak a look at the dailies.
Unless he was making it up.
Ridley Scott pretty much had free reign in 1979 and delivered the movie he wanted.
As far as a new sequel's budget is concerned, it makes financial sense to try and make one for 60-70 million. Covenant showed that Alien is still a viable franchise but it will never reach mega-blockbuster status. Financially speaking it reached its ceiling with Prometheus -and that had the added bonus of Ridley Scott returning to Alien and Sci-fi after decades. You can't repeat that.
If they are expecting a world-wide gross of 200-250 million, they will have to adjust the budget accordingly.
Quote from: SM on Jul 20, 2018, 12:08:28 AM
You could still make a decent Alien flick on a reduced budget, but I feel if you go sub-$80m these days it could really start to show.
Perhaps, but if you had the right team and they are dedicated to making it not just for money but for art, and they choose their shots right and have decent lighting and so on, they could get away with having an Alien movie with a lower budget. In fact a lower budget has made some film crew's more creative.
As for effects and suits, lighting can really help with that. Cameron's warriors are iconic but the suits don't look so good when lit and in fact some of them weren't even suits but piecies but on a spandex suit I believe (I hope I am not misremembering again :laugh:) But when his suits were darkly lit under blue and red, the suits looked great.
Of course hiring actors can be an issue, it is true that the more famous they are the more expensive they will be, but unknowns is not really a bad thing, as Sigourney was not as well known as she is now during the first film.
I hate to say it but less money primarily means less computer generated special effects which at this point in time has become boringly repetitive. Which could be good. However... the point of making these movies were for it to be a grand spectacle.
So honest question but is it even worth doing if the grandiose is absent? I'm really starting to question if there isn't enough money to keep the product top notch in all respects, maybe they should walk away.
I think the grandiose element only came in at Prometheus, Alien was a very small film. Aliens upped the ante but was a still small scale film and so was the third. Nothing in them went to Prometheus levels.
The films would benefit from not being grandiose.
Yea but it is a hell of a step back from the original intent. Which I would have to imagine is a rather large pill for Ridley and co to swallow. I really think they need to keep the budget at least near Covenant levels.
Keep the budget perhaps but do better with it. Though I still think they could easily make a decent Alien film on a lower budget.
Ridley Scott can still do grandiose, he just has to be conservative about where he sets his camera.
For a man that always comes in under budget; I doubt he'll have a problem, if he really needs the money. He'd get it. Think the Space Jockey.
How he doubled the scale, it can be done.
He can still do his epic shots, but the scale can't remain that way for as long.
He'll have to home in more, which could be a good thing for horror.
I tend to think that if they don't give him a decent budget he won't bother. He's always busy and getting older, so it wouldn't be hard for him to move on to something else. Alien is still a major franchise, and if he thinks Fox isn't taking it seriously he could easily walk.
True enough.
The next director should be an actual fan of the franchise who feels a personal responsibility to deliver a product that respects what came before. Doesn't have to be a carbon copy but at least something that coherently explores and expands upon the mythos. Not someone who wants to put his own stamp on the series for egotistical reasons.
Quote from: Evanus on Jul 19, 2018, 07:19:56 PM
So it's 100% confirmed Scott is doing another one? Cool. :)
They're just waiting for him to find the right story.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jul 20, 2018, 03:38:17 AM
Quote from: SM on Jul 20, 2018, 02:59:56 AM
Crowd funding for one of the richest corporations in the world?
If a bigger budget would result in a better movie, why not?
Yeah, it's a bit ridiculous. Besides, Fox doesn't fund the movies by themselves anyway. They usually join with large film financing entities (such as Dune Entertainment in the case of Prometheus and TSG Entertainment in the case of Covenant) to co-finance the production. If Scott was that desperate for a higher budget he could simply increase the investment from Scott Free Productions.
At this point I'm ok with someone else than Scott directing the third prequel. I have no idea how that would jive with the Ridley Scott machine and the studios detail-wise though.
I think someone with less of an infatuation with the David character but with more faith when it comes to the Alien, needs to take over as I have a hard time seeing how all of this is going to tie together with the original Alien movies without leaving us with a plethora of severe plot holes and canon inconsistencies. At this point we have LV-223 ripe for anyone to harvest on all its goodies. Same goes with Paradise. And if the next movie takes place over at Origae-6, we will have yet another mapped out location packed with Xenomorph creatures to pick from other than LV-426. We're getting awfully close to some deus ex machina plot device needed to get rid of Paradise, LV-223 and the aforementioned Origae-6 colony in order to make the strive of greedy corporations and corrupt governments going to lengths to get their hands on the Xenomorph interesting and with gravitas.
With LV-223 & Co still being around I don't see the point in W&Y's desperation to get their hands on Ripley and her queen embryo in A3, or the military trying to clone Ripley hundreds of years after she died on Fiorina 161. It just doesn't add up. Something needs to happen that makes LV-426 the only source of Xenomorphs left.
Quote from: Kane's other son on Jul 20, 2018, 09:32:42 AM
Ridley Scott pretty much had free reign in 1979 and delivered the movie he wanted.
Erm no. He was driven to such apparent frustration by producer over sight that he put a fist through a set.
@SpreadEagleBeagle
The simplest conclusion is the most logical, W-Y couldn't find those locations by the time of Aliens, or wouldn't devote resources to exploring the entirety of space, it is an endless void after all.
Quote from: Denton Smalls on Jul 20, 2018, 01:04:06 PM
The next director should be an actual fan of the franchise who feels a personal responsibility to deliver a product that respects what came before. Doesn't have to be a carbon copy but at least something that coherently explores and expands upon the mythos. Not someone who wants to put his own stamp on the series for egotistical reasons.
People who have publicly raved about being fans:
Joss Whedon
Paul WS Anderson
The Strauses
+ Neill Blomkamp
What a fantastic track record.
Luckily there are probably more than 4 fans in the film business.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Jul 19, 2018, 11:19:21 AM
Andrew Gaska, who we had on our Prometheus episode of the poddy, shared this on Prequel Paradise -
(https://i.imgur.com/BzK7se4.png)
Does this not contradic the fact that Shane is putting stuff from the AVP movies into The Predator? Or is just (senseless) fan service from him and that is it with no major implications?
Isn't it just a spear from the first AvP that shows up exposed in the lab? I think it's pretty much just a little nod that won't have any repercussions.
Quote from: Denton Smalls on Jul 21, 2018, 01:53:40 AM
Luckily there are probably more than 4 fans in the film business.
Matt Hatton, Carlos Huante and Dane Hallett are all genuine fans and have done excellent work.
But I've never seen a genuine fan also be an excellent writer/director- and I certainly don't believe a fan in charge is the correct avenue for contributing to this franchise by being in direct control of a project.
What you really need after Ridley Scott is gone is a Jonathan Glazer, David Lynch or John Carpenter.
Not a Neill Blomkamp.
Quote from: The Old One on Jul 21, 2018, 10:50:26 AM
Quote from: Denton Smalls on Jul 21, 2018, 01:53:40 AM
Luckily there are probably more than 4 fans in the film business.
Matt Hatton, Carlos Huante and Dane Hallett are all genuine fans and have done excellent work.
But I've never seen a genuine fan also be an excellent writer/director- and I certainly don't believe a fan in charge is the correct avenue for contributing to this franchise by being in direct control of a project.
What you really need after Ridley Scott is gone is a Jonathan Glazer, David Lynch or John Carpenter.
Not a Neill Blomkamp.
Just curious but what's so bad about Neill Blomkamp? Also, how do you know those three aren't also fans of the lore?
Quote from: The Old One on Jul 21, 2018, 10:50:26 AM
Quote from: Denton Smalls on Jul 21, 2018, 01:53:40 AM
Luckily there are probably more than 4 fans in the film business.
Matt Hatton, Carlos Huante and Dane Hallett are all genuine fans and have done excellent work.
But I've never seen a genuine fan also be an excellent writer/director- and I certainly don't believe a fan in charge is the correct avenue for contributing to this franchise by being in direct control of a project.
What you really need after Ridley Scott is gone is a Jonathan Glazer, David Lynch or John Carpenter.
Not a Neill Blomkamp.
David Cronenberg is the only other director who I feel could capture the aesthetics of the franchise.
Not a fan of David Cronenberg's work honestly, wouldn't be too keen on that idea but I'd take it over N.B any day.
Alex Garland would be suitable in that he always has a strong talent for writing and directing science fiction
with both subtlety and intelligence.
Unfortunately I believe he has no interest in franchise films of any nature,
much like most that would actually be suitable to be at the helm.
When I first saw District 9, I felt that Blomkamp could do a good Alien film. It had nothing to do with his recent proposal. I still feel the same.
I for one am glad he is not, in every respect- it's not his style.
I'd love a Blomkamp Alien movie. I just don't want him to retcon half of the series I grew up with.
Ok, im not going down the road towards this quagmire again..
BTW, a good portion of the series has already been retconned, the AVP stuff was once canon remember? It's just fiction..
Alien, Aliens and A3 have not only a narrative arc that is carried and then concluded but contains the same character doing so, that book is shut and should remain that way. It's not the same and you know it.
Except that book has had an extra volume tacked onto it called Alien Resurrection to keep the character alive in some weird way...
You're right, it's not the same ...but it's not much better. I don't buy into this idea that the first three films were a natural arc either. After the second film the story had an opening for a much more rewarding continuation or closure. Anyway, whatevs..
Ripley and Ripley8 are not the same character.
Then allow me a moment to consider.
You want to return to Ellen Ripley for a story that may or may not be more pleasing to the audience.
I do not.
I know better.
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/9f41d2c72cb47764f73d47bd081483d1/tumblr_oxioh9TnnA1vn6uixo2_500.gifv)
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jul 21, 2018, 09:33:16 PM
the AVP stuff was once canon remember?
AVP was canon? Like "for real" canon?
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 21, 2018, 10:07:12 PM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jul 21, 2018, 09:33:16 PM
the AVP stuff was once canon remember?
AVP was canon? Like "for real" canon?
Like is any of this "for real" canon? It's fiction.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jul 21, 2018, 09:54:31 PM
Ripley and Ripley8 are not the same character.
Yes, because Ripley was killed. And the studio wanted to find another way to feature Ripley in the next movie. So they cloned the dead character and it appears she has memories from her previous incarnation. So in many ways, it is the same character, in the worst way possible, while not being the same character at all. It's Super-Ripley! She just needs a fancy costume and a cape. ;D
Anyway, I'm pretty excited about Scott coming back for a fourth Alien film.
Quote from: The Old One on Jul 21, 2018, 10:04:03 PM
Then allow me a moment to consider.
You want to return to Ellen Ripley for a story that may or may not be more pleasing to the audience.
I do not.
I know better.
https://78.media.tumblr.com/9f41d2c72cb47764f73d47bd081483d1/tumblr_oxioh9TnnA1vn6uixo2_500.gifv
Of course you do. There, there. ::)
Quote from: The Old One on Jul 21, 2018, 10:04:03 PM
Then allow me a moment to consider.
You want to return to Ellen Ripley for a story that may or may not be more pleasing to the audience.
I do not.
I know better.
https://78.media.tumblr.com/9f41d2c72cb47764f73d47bd081483d1/tumblr_oxioh9TnnA1vn6uixo2_500.gifv
Bring me this tea, Old One.
Quote from: Huggs on Jul 21, 2018, 10:07:12 PM
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jul 21, 2018, 09:33:16 PM
the AVP stuff was once canon remember?
AVP was canon? Like "for real" canon?
30 years of mythology ruined!
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jul 21, 2018, 09:49:32 PM
Except that book has had an extra volume tacked onto it called Alien Resurrection to keep the character alive in some weird way...
You're right, it's not the same ...but it's not much better. I don't buy into this idea that the first three films were a natural arc either. After the second film the story had an opening for a much more rewarding continuation or closure. Anyway, whatevs..
Going down in scope was sure to lead to some disappointment, but killing Hicks and Newt was a good decision, and Alien 3's ending (the theatrical with the chestburster at the end) is pretty damn good in terms of closure.
Alien 3 is not at all a bad film, and certainly it's good for closure. If that's what you want.
It's what you should want for the closure of Ellen Ripley's story.
Even if it was not the most fair fate, shit happens to good people sometimes- that's life.
You're thirty years too late to change anything, setting up a new story whether or not it even acknowledges the trilogy doesn't make any difference.
As long as it's good. Ellen Ripley, Newt and Hicks are only three in billions of humans you can tell stories about.
Give some of them a shot, this isn't the Ripley saga.
In fact; new Alien films should be made in mind with the idea that Ellen Ripley practically never existed.
Basically, only use the facts in the fiction. Then with that as a basis for the universe- tell your own story.
I can't emphasize enough how much of a bad idea it is for a story that revolves around the void and monsters to have a cast of recurring characters, there's no passing of the torch needed either because that's obviously too rehearsed for Alien's naturalism.
The Alien and reality of the world loses all of it's bite if authors can just bring back those characters if they feel like it.
f**k that.
Quote from: The Old One on Jul 22, 2018, 12:49:28 AM
It's what you should want for the closure of Ellen Ripley's story.
Even if it was not the most fair fate, shit happens to good people sometimes- that's life.
You're thirty years too late to change anything, setting up a new story whether or not it even acknowledges the trilogy doesn't make any difference.
As long as it's good. Ellen Ripley, Newt and Hicks are only three in billions of humans you can tell stories about.
Give some of them a shot, this isn't the Ripley saga.
In fact; new Alien films should be made in mind with the idea that Ellen Ripley practically never existed.
Basically, only use the facts in the fiction. Then with that as a basis for the universe- tell your own story.
I can't emphasize enough how much of a bad idea it is for a story that revolves around the void and monsters to have a cast of recurring characters, there's no passing of the torch needed either because that's obviously too rehearsed for Alien's naturalism.
The Alien and reality of the world loses all of it's bite if authors can just bring back those characters if they feel like it.
f**k that.
Thank you for telling me what I should want. I really appreciate that. I was at a loss before you came along.
Perhaps that was unfair. But the rest of the post explains why I find why what you want makes me wanna do this;
(https://steamusercontent-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/49867894378732170/012F5F65D51396E159F16209036E5BF635C1FA90/)
Ma'am, please don't blow your head off. We're all just talking as fans about works of fiction. It's not worth it.
The negativity of the female predator thread, the positivity of the Godzilla trailer and stuff like this. It's an emotional day here at avpgalaxy.
I just want a sequel to A|R. One last Weaver movie. A really strange one at that. One where Call is now called Tod. Where Ripley finds herself... back on Earth doing shitty jobs for a few years and then bam, she decides to colonize the world in the name of the ALIEN when she finds out she can lay eggs and it is quite nice to rule in hell.
Quote from: Perfect-Organism on Jul 21, 2018, 10:49:17 PM
Alien 3 is not at all a bad film, and certainly it's good for closure.
This. It's a great end to the Ripley story arc trilogy.
Quote from: whiterabbit on Jul 22, 2018, 06:43:01 AM
I just want a sequel to A|R. One last Weaver movie. A really strange one at that. One where Call is now called Tod. Where Ripley finds herself... back on Earth doing shitty jobs for a few years and then bam, she decides to colonize the world in the name of the ALIEN when she finds out she can lay eggs and it is quite nice to rule in hell.
(https://i.gifer.com/4yU2.gif)
(https://i.gifer.com/LyQQ.gif)
I colonized Earth...
...in your face Mark Watney.
:D
Quote from: The Old One on Jul 21, 2018, 10:50:26 AM
Quote from: Denton Smalls on Jul 21, 2018, 01:53:40 AM
Luckily there are probably more than 4 fans in the film business.
Matt Hatton, Carlos Huante and Dane Hallett are all genuine fans and have done excellent work.
But I've never seen a genuine fan also be an excellent writer/director- and I certainly don't believe a fan in charge is the correct avenue for contributing to this franchise by being in direct control of a project.
What you really need after Ridley Scott is gone is a Jonathan Glazer, David Lynch or John Carpenter.
Not a Neill Blomkamp.
Another good one would be Jennifer Kent (her directorial debut was
The Babadook), with a story set in a remote location far away from any references to the prequels or sequels (except
Aliens) or whatever. Just treat it as a soft-reboot, with nothing connecting it to the previous films save a review of the feats of the Xenomorph, regarding what it did to a doomed crew of merchant marines, a colony vessel, and a marine drop crew on LV-426 (without even mentioning any names). And unlike any
Alien film since 1992, it would revolve exclusively around a solitary Xenomorph, with the potential of it being joined by more of its brethren in the final act, brutally eliminating the crew in new, creative and original ways. I even had an idea where one of the first casualties dies in the way Lambert was originally supposed to die (being sucked out into space through the garbage chute), but were unable to do so due to the lack of technology and special effects. There would also be very little gore, an example would be some time after the chestburster sequence (which involves a far more drawn-out and visceral/jarring-in-appearance struggle with the human body responding/contorting in many physically-intimidating ways to the cat-sized creature forcing its way out of the torso) they are searching for the creature while also trying to get the power back on in their shitty/old 'factory in space' type starship, and while one crewmember is working one some paneling her partner is yanked like a ragdoll into the darkness with blinding speed. She realizes he is gone, and starts telling him to knock it off with the jokes. A small object is tossed out of the shadows, rolls up to her, and it is revealed to be his dismembered eyeball. In other words, what little gore there is, is carefully inserted at a few points to create fear and foreboding (in this case, showcasing that he is dead), not to provoke disgust.
I think you've hit the nail on the head, and like James Cameron said, there's a substantial difference between violence and gore, violence can be scary and lead to gore- but gore for the sake of it just provokes disgust.
Although I myself do find Aliens lack of blood a little too safe for my liking.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 01, 2018, 05:23:27 PM
I think you've hit the nail on the head, and like James Cameron said, there's a substantial difference between violence and gore, violence can be scary and lead to gore- but gore for the sake of it just provokes disgust.
Although I myself do find Aliens lack of blood a little too safe for my liking.
Yeah, the things I have in mind are kind of like the scary-as-shit-for-their-time horror slashers like Nightmare on Elm Street, Poltergeist and Texas Chainsaw, but... like... on steroids and weapons-grade LSD. Think mixing the ominous, foreboding "peekaboo" scares of
Alien with the breakneck velocity and ultra-violence of
Aliens. With the right atmosphere and score/SFX, shit could be utter nightmare-fuel.
Mostly because the Aliens are never offensive on a personal one-to-one basis. They're like a storm that sweeps in and washes people away. The only time we see an alien outright kill in Aliens is on the dropship, which results in a cut away of some blood.
In fact the only scene with any genuine blood is the colonist bursting in the hive, and I honestly think it's of equal effectiveness to that of Kane's. Primarily because of Ripley's distraught reaction. Weaver sells the dread, pain, and the sorrow so well.
Meh. Its still inferior to Kane's birthing by quite a vacuum in my opinion.
I disagree, I think Alien is a better film but for my money the chestburster in Aliens is far and away the superior scene. If you intend to horrify.
It doesn't help that the chestburster running away on the table in Alien doesn't look so good, in Aliens there's an immediate dread of the hive waking up.
The reactions of the crew of the Nostromo are unparalleled bar none I'll say.
Like the overall films, they both have their strengths and weaknesses.
Someone unexpectedly exploding on a dinner table was much more horrifying than when you expect it to happen.
Quote from: SiL on Aug 01, 2018, 08:55:11 PM
Someone unexpectedly exploding on a dinner table was much more horrifying than when you expect it to happen.
For me the reason the Aliens burster retains more of it's emotional potency is that it's connect directly to Ripley's motivations. The whole reason she goes along, at least in Weaver's mind, is to ensure that nobody ever go through what she went through in the first film. It's her nightmare literally reflected back at her.
The scene in the first film is expertly acted, paced, and delivered all around. I love every bit of it, even the "not so great" burster shooting off the table, but I think it has less going on underneath. It's effective horror. It's made me question sharp tinges from gas ever since.
Kane should've burped.
Quote from: SiL on Aug 01, 2018, 08:55:11 PM
Someone unexpectedly exploding on a dinner table was much more horrifying than when you expect it to happen.
That's what she said. :laugh:
Considering audiences in 1979 were expecting another space adventure along the lines of Star Wars and instead had a giant bloodied cock suddenly rip its way out of its victims chest - it doesn't get any more horrific than that. Especially considering the cast had no idea the scene was going to be so bloody. All the cast responded as appropriate - not just Weaver.
Back in 1979, yeah. It was genuinely shocking to just about everyone who walked off the street to see the movie on a Saturday night. No iteration of a similar scene in an ALIEN movie since can take away from that experience. They all suffer from 'been there. Done that' repetition.
-Windebieste.
The people in 1979 aren't the ones who watch it now, everything changes with the context of time and unfortunately
it simply isn't as effective today.
That's subjective and many strongly disagree.
As I strongly disagree with the notion that it's the most effective one, narratively or in a horror context.
Like Dracula, you must respect the original but it doesn't mean it's the best rendition.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 12, 2018, 12:19:04 PM
As I strongly disagree with the notion that it's the most effective one, narratively or in a horror context.
Like Dracula, you must respect the original but it doesn't mean it's the best rendition.
What would be the most effective narratively or in a horror context then, in your opinion?
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 12, 2018, 11:58:24 AM
The people in 1979 aren't the ones who watch it now, everything changes with the context of time and unfortunately
it simply isn't as effective today.
Can you provide whatever reference you used to come to the conclusion that the people in 1979 aren't the ones who watch it now?
Both my parents saw Alien in 1979 and both also saw Covenant, as did many others I know.
Sorry, I should say that the majority that have watched Alien since 1979 is far greater than those that saw it in 1979; as that's what I meant.
Narratively, thematically I think A3 and Covenant are the most powerful.
As for pure horror, I think Aliens' chestburster tops Alien, the ripping and tearing is far more visceral to me, the sounds of the bones snapping as well as the psychology of its' effect on our protagonist.
I still can't entirely watch the Kane's chestburst. John's acting is too real.
Scott: We are going to make another Alien movie
Disney: No
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 12, 2018, 03:34:38 PM
Narratively, thematically I think A3 and Covenant are the most powerful.
Alien 3 is by far the most powerful. There's just no avoiding the narrative teeth of that film. It's dark, violent, and for more unforgiving than the first two films. Which is exactly what I wanted from it. The Assembly Cut is a masterpiece in my opinion, and I honestly wonder if it would've been better received had the second film not been what it was. All marines and dropships and action.
Something like an Alien loose on Gateway Station once Ripley is rescued. Kind of like Isolation. You could've had several Aliens near the end, and plenty of facehuggers running around. She escapes only to crash land on Fiorina in the third movie, with an e.e.v. full of facehuggers, thus solving the multiple hugger problem.
In various ways this would've left room for a movie set on earth to be made later. Maybe a transmission from the CM near the end saying they're coming up, or "we're standing by to receive survivors". But those survivors are Aliens or infected humans.
You can still do that film, just have the Torrens float into Earth's orbit after 300 years.
QuoteThe Assembly Cut is a masterpiece in my opinion, and I honestly wonder if it would've been better received had the second film not been what it was.
It would be a slow and often redundant blur of faceless criminals swearing at each other no matter what happened in Aliens.
Quote from: SM on Aug 12, 2018, 11:30:35 PM
QuoteThe Assembly Cut is a masterpiece in my opinion, and I honestly wonder if it would've been better received had the second film not been what it was.
It would be a slow and often redundant blur of faceless criminals swearing at each other no matter what happened in Aliens.
Quote from: SM on Aug 12, 2018, 11:30:35 PM
QuoteThe Assembly Cut is a masterpiece in my opinion, and I honestly wonder if it would've been better received had the second film not been what it was.
It would be a slow and often redundant blur of faceless criminals swearing at each other no matter what happened in Aliens.
Oh, Pish Tosh. It's fantastic and you know it. It's probably your favorite one. :D Go ahead, admit it, admit you love it. Say it before God and all the bones of the saints! ;D
I pray only to the Church of St Ripley the Redeemer.
Those who would make false idols of the Alien 3 Special Edition naming it 'masterpiece' shall be cast down into the pit of lead eternal, unforgiven despite the fact they know not what they do.
Quote from: SM on Aug 13, 2018, 01:20:29 AM
I pray only to the Church of St Ripley the Redeemer.
Those who would make false idols of the Alien 3 Special Edition naming it 'masterpiece' shall be cast down into the pit of lead eternal, unforgiven despite the fact they know not what they do.
Blasphemy! A thousand....oh dear God, it's turning into the Vincent Ward script. I think I just saw the corn move. Verm?! Is that you!?
We might want to make a run for it. All are welcome to join. Oh, and the septic system is down for maintenance right now, just so you know. It's a real mess in there.
Quote from: Huggs on Aug 12, 2018, 05:32:18 PM
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 12, 2018, 03:34:38 PM
Narratively, thematically I think A3 and Covenant are the most powerful.
Alien 3 is by far the most powerful. There's just no avoiding the narrative teeth of that film. It's dark, violent, and for more unforgiving than the first two films. Which is exactly what I wanted from it. The Assembly Cut is a masterpiece in my opinion, and I honestly wonder if it would've been better received had the second film not been what it was. All marines and dropships and action.
Something like an Alien loose on Gateway Station once Ripley is rescued. Kind of like Isolation. You could've had several Aliens near the end, and plenty of facehuggers running around. She escapes only to crash land on Fiorina in the third movie, with an e.e.v. full of facehuggers, thus solving the multiple hugger problem.
In various ways this would've left room for a movie set on earth to be made later. Maybe a transmission from the CM near the end saying they're coming up, or "we're standing by to receive survivors". But those survivors are Aliens or infected humans.
Aliens wasn't all action. IIRC the first bullets are fired so far into the movie(Drake briefly firing, when they find Newt, right?) and there isn't anything again until the first firefight. Even then there isn't just the mindless droning of guns.
Alien 3 lacking gun action has never been a problem.
It's okay Huggs, you're both wrong- A3 isn't a masterpiece, but nor is it bad or boring. At worst it's not even mediocre.
Especially the Assembly Cut, but there's a better film in there as an intermediate of the two.
One that does include the alternate opening, Golic's demise, raising servants to redemption and Juniors death.
In spite of what some will tell you.
Maybe it just needed some Dutch angles.
Ahahahaha.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 13, 2018, 03:22:56 AM
It's okay Huggs, you're both wrong- A3 isn't a masterpiece, but nor is it bad or boring. At worst it's not even mediocre.
Especially the Assembly Cut, but there's a better film in there as an intermediate of the two.
One that does include the alternate opening, Golic's demise, raising servants to redemption and Juniors death.
In spite of what some will tell you.
Give me the Assembly Cut's added scenes but keep the theatrical cut's opening, ending, and dog-burster, and I think we'd have my ideal Alien3 edit.
That said, the AC is still leagues better than the TC.
Quote from: Local Trouble on Aug 13, 2018, 03:27:43 AM
Maybe it just needed some Dutch angles.
I'd like to know how Arnold getting a side-story would've been an improvement? ;)
Quote from: Xenomrph on Aug 13, 2018, 03:59:48 AM
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 13, 2018, 03:22:56 AM
It's okay Huggs, you're both wrong- A3 isn't a masterpiece, but nor is it bad or boring. At worst it's not even mediocre.
Especially the Assembly Cut, but there's a better film in there as an intermediate of the two.
One that does include the alternate opening, Golic's demise, raising servants to redemption and Juniors death.
In spite of what some will tell you.
Give me the Assembly Cut's added scenes but keep the theatrical cut's opening, ending, and dog-burster, and I think we'd have my ideal Alien3.
That said, the AC is still leagues better than the TC.
I can understand the reasoning behind prefering the canine chestburster and Queen chestburster although I disagree. However-
It's lost on me why anyone wouldn't prefer the alternative opening to A3, it's Jordan Cronenweth's best work on the film, gorgeous and the ADR is undoubtedly better from the higher angle of seeing the crashed EEV and hearing Frank's commentary.
The shots of the inside of it are also more tasteful. Whether Rebecca Jordan suffered or not is better left to the imagination.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 13, 2018, 04:34:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Aug 13, 2018, 03:59:48 AM
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 13, 2018, 03:22:56 AM
It's okay Huggs, you're both wrong- A3 isn't a masterpiece, but nor is it bad or boring. At worst it's not even mediocre.
Especially the Assembly Cut, but there's a better film in there as an intermediate of the two.
One that does include the alternate opening, Golic's demise, raising servants to redemption and Juniors death.
In spite of what some will tell you.
Give me the Assembly Cut's added scenes but keep the theatrical cut's opening, ending, and dog-burster, and I think we'd have my ideal Alien3.
That said, the AC is still leagues better than the TC.
I can understand the reasoning behind prefering the canine chestburster and Queen chestburster although I disagree. However-
It's lost on me why anyone wouldn't prefer the alternative opening to A3, it's Jordan Cronenweth's best work on the film, gorgeous and the ADR is undoubtedly better from the higher angle of seeing the crashed EEV and hearing Frank's commentary.
The shots of the inside of it are also more tasteful. Whether Rebecca Jordan suffered or not is better left to the imagination.
I agree.
The opening for the assembly cut sets the tone of Alien3 as a grand operatic drama. Cronenweth's cinematography accompanied by Goldenthal score is masterful, and help cement that point. This sequence alone showed Fincher's great vision that later we'd see in his later films.
I also agree of not seeing Newt inside the cryotube. Keep it to our imagination.
the cremation sequence with either animal works since what matters is what's occurring to Ripley which is heartbreaking to watch. The editing, cinematography, dialogue, and score worked beautifully. I still get chills thinking about it.
Mel Brooks did it best. Clearly.
Oh nnnooo...
Not again.
Who's the black guy supposed to be? I mean they couldn't find a stand in for Dallas and why wasn't there a blond chick. I have so many questions.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 12, 2018, 03:34:38 PM
Sorry, I should say that the majority that have watched Alien since 1979 is far greater than those that saw it in 1979; as that's what I meant.
Narratively, thematically I think A3 and Covenant are the most powerful.
As for pure horror, I think Aliens' chestburster tops Alien, the ripping and tearing is far more visceral to me, the sounds of the bones snapping as well as the psychology of its' effect on our protagonist.
Aliens' chestburster scared me the most since that was the first I saw. Wasn't allowed to see Alien until years after.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 13, 2018, 04:34:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Aug 13, 2018, 03:59:48 AM
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 13, 2018, 03:22:56 AM
It's okay Huggs, you're both wrong- A3 isn't a masterpiece, but nor is it bad or boring. At worst it's not even mediocre.
Especially the Assembly Cut, but there's a better film in there as an intermediate of the two.
One that does include the alternate opening, Golic's demise, raising servants to redemption and Juniors death.
In spite of what some will tell you.
Give me the Assembly Cut's added scenes but keep the theatrical cut's opening, ending, and dog-burster, and I think we'd have my ideal Alien3.
That said, the AC is still leagues better than the TC.
I can understand the reasoning behind prefering the canine chestburster and Queen chestburster although I disagree. However-
It's lost on me why anyone wouldn't prefer the alternative opening to A3, it's Jordan Cronenweth's best work on the film, gorgeous and the ADR is undoubtedly better from the higher angle of seeing the crashed EEV and hearing Frank's commentary.
The shots of the inside of it are also more tasteful. Whether Rebecca Jordan suffered or not is better left to the imagination.
I guess I just prefer the visuals of the prisoners finding Ripley in the cryo-tube, as opposed to her somehow getting ejected from it and onto the beach.
I also definitely prefer the "arc" of the dog finding the facehugger, and then the emotional impact of the dog's suffering as it gives birth to the Alien, and then Murphy calling out to his dog before he ends up being the Alien's first victim. I think it works a lot better than the ox.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Aug 14, 2018, 07:28:01 AM
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 13, 2018, 04:34:35 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Aug 13, 2018, 03:59:48 AM
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 13, 2018, 03:22:56 AM
It's okay Huggs, you're both wrong- A3 isn't a masterpiece, but nor is it bad or boring. At worst it's not even mediocre.
Especially the Assembly Cut, but there's a better film in there as an intermediate of the two.
One that does include the alternate opening, Golic's demise, raising servants to redemption and Juniors death.
In spite of what some will tell you.
Give me the Assembly Cut's added scenes but keep the theatrical cut's opening, ending, and dog-burster, and I think we'd have my ideal Alien3.
That said, the AC is still leagues better than the TC.
I can understand the reasoning behind prefering the canine chestburster and Queen chestburster although I disagree. However-
It's lost on me why anyone wouldn't prefer the alternative opening to A3, it's Jordan Cronenweth's best work on the film, gorgeous and the ADR is undoubtedly better from the higher angle of seeing the crashed EEV and hearing Frank's commentary.
The shots of the inside of it are also more tasteful. Whether Rebecca Jordan suffered or not is better left to the imagination.
I guess I just prefer the visuals of the prisoners finding Ripley in the cryo-tube, as opposed to her somehow getting ejected from it and onto the beach.
I also definitely prefer the "arc" of the dog finding the facehugger, and then the emotional impact of the dog's suffering as it gives birth to the Alien, and then Murphy calling out to his dog before he ends up being the Alien's first victim. I think it works a lot better than the ox.
That's why when I watch Alien 3, I watch the theatrical cut until the alien is born, then I switch to the assembly cut.
I don't think there's anything mysterious about her appearing on the beach, either the cryotube seal broke from the acid and then she washed ashore or she was about to drown like Rebecca Jorden did, survival instincts kicked in and escaped. Facehuggers result in amnesia too.
I don't give a toss about Murphy's illogical Dog, I'll take the better looking, better sounding, cut that's more ripe with the religious imagery;
so that come the revelations of the story and especially the third act- it feels more genuine and earned.
The dog-burster has the same imagery as the ox-burster, nor do I see how the dog is "illogical". Even if you can explain Ripley washing up on-shore, I still prefer the prisoners finding her alive in the cryotube.
Like I said, my ideal cut of the movie would be a blend of the two. In fact, aside from 'Aliens', I'd say the same thing about the 1st and 4th movies as well.
The dog has no reason to be on a penal colony, it's existence is illogical.
In comparison with impregnating one of the Oxen or a human, I just don't buy it.
Why does there have to be a reason for a dog? Its mans best friend and they make great companions for humans. Just a weird thing to question.
Its like questioning the cat in Alien when there are no mice on the ship.
It's the likelihood I don't buy.
A cat I can see because it's on a travelling starship that stays at commercial locations from time to time. Thedus etc
The dog even getting to the penal colony, a lead refinery before that- I can't buy.
& even further I don't buy the likelihood of the dog being infected, when there's 25 humans wandering around,
presumably 10 or so at the crash site, one of the Oxen which there is at least eight of used for labour-
I can buy being infected and someone not noticing.
They probably have an separate area for themselves like the dogs in John Carpenter's The Thing
where one could easily be infected.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Aug 14, 2018, 06:21:56 PM
The dog-burster has the same imagery as the ox-burster, nor do I see how the dog is "illogical".
Not as religious imagery which is what I stated, the sacred bull being defiled.
We see why the dog gets infected, it's right there in the EEV when the fafehugger reveals itself. In my book, that makes it a heck of a lot more likely than the oxen, who's living conditions we know nothing about.
Also it's worth pointing out that even in the assembly cut version, the dog still exists - Murphy calls out for Spike before he gets killed.
There's any number of reasons for the dog to be there - it stowed away on a transport, etc. When it's trivially easy to explain why a dog would be present, that's the opposite of "illogical". Like, there is obvious logic to explain the presence of the dog, independent of whether you believe it to be likely or not.
I'd buy a dog being present at the colony before I'd buy Ripley making it out of the EEV when it crashes.
Also the EEV's crashed state in the assembly cut introduces a fun continuity error that isn't present in the theatrical cut - in the TC, the EEV crashes with the starboard side submerged, while in the AC it's the port side submerged. Given where the EEV opens (the starboard side) and the order of the cryotubes from port to starboard (Hicks, Bishop, Ripley, Newt), it makes sense in the TC that Newt drowned since her tube was the most likely to be underwater. In the AC, with the port-side crash, the only way for Newt's tube to be underwater is if all the other tubes are, too. What with Ripley's having a gaping hole in the glass, shed have drowned along with Newt unless she was awake and alert before/during the crash and got herself free. Given how the two prior movies showed that cryotube occupants are groggy for a good while after waking up, that's probably not likely. Not to mention that Kane was real groggy after he woke up from getting facehugged- so Ripley would be fighting off the effects of the cryosleep *and* the facehugging to get out before drowning. Possible? Maybe. Likely? I kinda doubt it.
Even though I'm not going into argument with how I disagree with your post because I simply don't have the energy, here's a fun fact;
In the DVD version of the Assembly Cut Murphy doesn't call out to Spike,
that was a mistake introduced in the new audio mix of the Blu-Ray.
So like I've stated before about the egg, he's there- but it's a mistake.
Truth be told, I'd be okay with Spike being an a new extended 4K cut- ...I do think the Ox is more appropriate for the film, in thematics even if it isn't executed quite as well.
& It crushes the stupid Kenner style insistence that an Alien born from a bull should have horns.
But I'd never agree that the original opening is superior, even if the EEV is the at the wrong angle.
I much, much prefer Clemens finding Ripley alone and believe it genuinely adds to the film's quality in a number of ways.
The Spike error is on the R1 DVD.
To each their own, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. :)
"Mistake" or not (and personally I don't see it as one), the dog is still present in both versions of the movie. When I get home I'll check the novelization to see if the dog gets mentioned just because I'm curious. I just checked the script and it's not, so probably not.
Also the Kenner thing seems like a bizarre complaint - if a future movie or comic or whatever wanted to have a Bull Alien with horns, I'd be totally okay with it. The Alien in the first movie had a human skull while none of the others did. Aliens don't have a set shape, any changes in designs are really easy to chalk up to "it's an Alien".
I agree that a better cut exists between the TC and the AC. 100% prefer the dog over the ox too. The ox one just feels so...meh. It's just a dead husk convulsing. The dog one carries a bit more weight to it. That said, I'm really keen to see what NECA does with a Kenner inspired Bull Alien. I loved that figure - it was my first one.
I think the dog is the best version. Lots of people feel more sympathy towards a dog than they do towards there own kind. Also why would it be illogical to have a dog on a backwaters prison planet. How the planet isn't full of rats is way odder.
There's loads of reasons why a dog would be there. Easiest being, like Xenomrph says, it snuck on a transports. Others are some prisons allow like support animals now so perhaps they go as far as to allow dogs on some backwater prison colony too.
Alright, alright I concede the presence of a Dog is fairly reasonable.
But again, that AC Opening far surpasses the TC.
There's a stack of other farm animals, so a dog is neither here nor there.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Aug 14, 2018, 10:08:35 PM
If a future movie or comic or whatever wanted to have a Bull Alien with horns, I'd be totally okay with it.
The Alien in the first movie had a human skull while none of the others did.
Aliens don't have a set shape, any changes in designs are really easy to chalk up to "it's an Alien".
I wouldn't.
I'm fairly certain the Planet 4 Alien has a skull, as well as Kane's son.
No, I don't think so- for Aliens I believe any changes are due to an effort to better hide in the environment they create.
In A3 it's proportions, lack of back spines and posture are different because it was born from a animal host.
They all have human-like bodies and phallic heads, all of them have an androgynous and gaunt body.
Observably they take host traits, such as shape, speed, posture but altered and always have their own constants.
They do not take host defense mechanisms so far as we can tell,
from a design perspective you don't want to alter the head shape too much, keep the same basic silhouette.
Yeah the Planet 4 version did have a skull, I think I remember it looking more differently though, namely the eye sockets.
>:(
Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 15, 2018, 10:15:45 AM
Yeah the Planet 4 version did have a skull, I think I remember it looking more differently though, namely the eye sockets.
I'm not questioning if you're correct, but do you know of a specific moment or scene where you can see it, or if there's screenshots available? I never noticed a skull but that's pretty cool that it's there.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 15, 2018, 08:25:32 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Aug 14, 2018, 10:08:35 PM
If a future movie or comic or whatever wanted to have a Bull Alien with horns, I'd be totally okay with it.
I wouldn't.
To each their own. :)
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 15, 2018, 08:25:32 AM
No, I don't think so- for Aliens I believe any changes are due to an effort to better hide in the environment they create.
There's a lot of problems with this (long standing) theory when you really start to break it down, mostly due to the age of the Aliens and the uniformity in their design.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 15, 2018, 08:25:32 AMThey all have human-like bodies and phallic heads, all of them have an androgynous and gaunt body.
The ones in Resurrection didn't, they had digitigrade legs. From Resurrection onward is where the "logic" of the Alien design starts to fall apart - the ones in the first AvP movie are literally identical to the ones from Resurrection from the knees up, so any explanation of "human DNA mixing" to address the Resurrection ones goes right out the window. And the ones from AvP Requiem are identical to the ones from AvP from the neck down, but just like with 'Aliens', the "age" and "camouflage" explanations don't add up. And then you get to Covenant where the Alien is recognizably an Alien, but still really different.
And that doesn't even touch on the comics or video games, where Aliens get redesigned constantly - but they're still recognizably Aliens. For me, rather than trying to find a "logic" behind their varying appearances, it just makes sense to me to write it all off as "Aliens follow general guidelines, not hard rules".
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 15, 2018, 08:25:32 AMfrom a design perspective you don't want to alter the head shape too much, keep the same basic silhouette.
I guess I don't mind changing things that much - even with the wacky Kenner figures, you can show just about any of them to pretty much anyone, even people who aren't huge Alien fans, and they're going to immediately say "oh hey, that's an Alien", and the figures have obvious design cues so you can immediately say "it's an Alien + a bull/gorilla/snake/rhino/whatever". Like yeah there's some exceptions (Killer Crab, Wild Boar, Scorpion) but even those are instantly recognizable as being a xenomorph, even if their host animal isn't as obvious.
Don't get me wrong, I get your complaint - people had the same problem with PredAliens having mandibles and dreadlocks, but personally I don't think slapping horns, dreadlocks, whatever on the head makes them any less of an Alien. I guess it's just a different threshold of what one believes "ruins" the Alien look - I'm 100% sure there are purists out there who think even the changes made in 'Aliens' ruin the design seen in the first movie.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 15, 2018, 10:15:45 AM
Yeah the Planet 4 version did have a skull, I think I remember it looking more differently though, namely the eye sockets.
Yep.
Okay that's really cool. I guess I'm too used to the "not screen accurate merchandise version" that's all over the place; I don't think that one has a skull.
I'm not going to quote your whole post Xeno, but I'll just say this; the ones in Resurrection are mutants.
& AVP, AVPR don't count in my book.
I also doubt there's a single good spin-off/book/game whatever that doesn't adhere to my outline.
That's not to say there couldn't be a good one, but it's down to the mentality they approach the project with; For instance-
if giving the viewer a Zoo full of silly Alien variants is the primary goal of course everything else is going to fall by the wayside.
Digitgrade legs isn't that far of a departure from the design principles either, with Alien Isolation etc
I'd actually have no problem with the mandibles on a Predalien, it's only logical because if they inherit the skull from the host,
then reasonably they'd inherit the skull's structure- if not the individual then the species.
The dreadlocks are illogical, because whether from a human or animal;
the Alien always has the same basic head shape and structure in the enlogated portion.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 16, 2018, 06:02:52 AM
I'm not going to quote your whole post Xeno, but I'll just say this; the ones in Resurrection are mutants.
& AVP, AVPR don't count in my book.
To each their own. :)
But if the ones in Resurrection are mutants, what are they mutated with? If it's human DNA, where did the digitigrade legs come from?
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 16, 2018, 06:02:52 AMI also doubt there's a single good spin-off/book/game whatever that doesn't adhere to my outline.
That's not to say there couldn't be a good one, but it's down to the mentality they approach the project with; For instance-
if giving the viewer a Zoo full of silly Alien variants is the primary goal of course everything else is going to fall by the wayside.
I don't think that's necessarily true - there's a shitload of movies, books, comics, videogames, whatever, that have really "silly" premises but in their execution become interesting and compelling. NECA Toys has been redesigning the old Kenner designs and they look fantastic - the Mantis Alien, arguably one of the weirder Kenner concepts, looks downright scary in the redesign. I'd be absolutely okay seeing that thing in an Alien movie.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 16, 2018, 06:02:52 AMDigitgrade legs isn't that far of a departure from the design principles either, with Alien Isolation etc
My point is that it's a design change that doesn't have a "logical" explanation - because as long as the broad strokes are recognizably "Alien", the smaller details don't have to make sense.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 16, 2018, 06:02:52 AMI'd actually have no problem with the mandibles on a Predalien, it's only logical because if they inherit the skull from the host,
then reasonably they'd inherit the skull's structure- if not the individual then the species.
By that reasoning, why does the one in Alien3 have human teeth?
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 16, 2018, 06:02:52 AMThe dreadlocks are illogical, because whether from a human or animal;
Not necessarily - Predator dreadlocks aren't hair in the conventional mammalian sense. They bleed when cut, and you can see sockets for them in the Predator's skull.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 16, 2018, 06:02:52 AMthe Alien always has the same basic head shape and structure in the enlogated portion.
I agree, and I don't think adding horns or ridges or whatever changes that. :)
Quote from: Xenomrph on Aug 16, 2018, 06:49:29 AM
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 16, 2018, 06:02:52 AM
I'm not going to quote your whole post Xeno, but I'll just say this; the ones in Resurrection are mutants.
& AVP, AVPR don't count in my book.
To each their own. :)
But if the ones in Resurrection are mutants, what are they mutated with? If it's human DNA, where did the digitigrade legs come from?
Evidently. ADI has talked in the past about how the whole dna mix thing was taken into account when designing the Resurrection Aliens.
The Queen's biological structure, she has digitigrade legs.
What's happened is crossover on an organismal level due to cloning.
Everything took traits from both Ripley 8 and the Queen she bore.
The Mantis Alien looks good for an action figure, it's Mantis abdomen looks ridiculous unfortunately.
Human and canine teeth, apart from the head structure aren't all that dissimilar, we all come from the mammalian family tree.
As for the Predator.
They have quils predominantly all over their body, more in age and thicker around the dredlocks.
They've never been shown to bleed in a film so that comic book rendition is speculative for the time being,
but considering what I just stated, I'd deem it unlikely that the dredlocks are anything other than a protein filament- whether they bleed or not.
.
As for design changes;
Ridges wouldn't change it if it's a constant but subtle feature. Especially since a suggestion of it had been there from the beginning.
Horns would be two protrusions, and would change that- take it from the concept artist.
QuoteThe Queen's biological structure, she has digitigrade legs.
What's happened is crossover on an organismal level due to cloning.
Everything took traits from both Ripley 8 and the Queen she bore.
Why would the Queen's anatomy affect the Alien's legs, when they don't for "non mutant" Aliens?
What about the ones from Alien Isolation, which are also digitigrade?
QuoteHuman and canine teeth, apart from the head structure aren't all that dissimilar, we all come from the mammalian family tree
The point is that the "logic" to justify a Predator's mandibles doesn't hold true when you apply it to other Aliens in the movies - the way you're framing it, it's arbitrary whether an Alien takes the host's tooth structure or not. If it was logically consistent, the Alien3 Alien would have dog (or ox) teeth, and it doesn't.
The whole point of this exercise is to demonstrate that when Alien biology is concerned, "logic" isn't (and shouldn't be) the focus. :P That was one of the big themes behind the original movie - the Alien, as a creature, isn't supposed to "make sense". It's supposed to be weird and scary.
QuoteThey've never been shown to bleed in a film so that comic book rendition is speculative for the time being,
but considering what I just stated, I'd deem it unlikely that the dredlocks are anything other than a protein filament- whether they bleed or not.
We see it bled in 'Predators'. Also as I said, the Predator's skull has actual sockets for the dreadlocks - that indicates that it's more than just "hair".
QuoteHorns would be two protrusions, and would change that- take it from the concept artist.
There are "design changes" across every Alien movie and beyond; it seems like an arbitrary standard that you can't add horns to the Alien head, but apparently mandibles are okay. What about the Queen? Its head is radically different in shape from a normal Alien?
Your criteria for what is "acceptable" or "logical" is really arbitrarily, but hey, that's what make them opinions. Everyone's got 'em, and that's what makes discussion interesting. :)
It's just an attempt at an in-universe explanation for an arbitrary design change.
Because Number Eight, the Queen and all of her offspring are genetically impure.
Alien Isolation I'd say is simply a retcon of the first two films or a design change that isn't canon,
depends what way you look at it.
No, that's just not how biology works- especially from what we can see from the Alien.
I agree however that logic shouldn't be the focus, but you need guidelines.
I must be mistaken on the dreadlocks then, but I don't believe I saw such a thing in the Nimrod Antal film.
It's not always arbitrary for what you can't add and can, you just need to trust me on this one-
there's certain things you can do and they'll work and others won't.
The Queen is an exception because she's functionally, in universe and otherwise different from the adult Alien.
The adult Alien's head needs to remain phallic if you want a good Alien design.
Adding mandibles, changing the jaw structure or adding/removing lips doesn't change that.
Dredlocks, horns and protrusions of that nature do- that's why they don't belong.
There's other, better ways to include the idea of horns or dredlocks without just hot-gluing them onto the design.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Aug 16, 2018, 04:31:04 AM
Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 15, 2018, 10:15:45 AM
Yeah the Planet 4 version did have a skull, I think I remember it looking more differently though, namely the eye sockets.
I'm not questioning if you're correct, but do you know of a specific moment or scene where you can see it, or if there's screenshots available? I never noticed a skull but that's pretty cool that it's there.
SM showed one, but there are few other moments as well. The shower scene for example but it is harder to see on that one.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 15, 2018, 08:25:32 AMThey all have human-like bodies and phallic heads, all of them have an androgynous and gaunt body.
QuoteThe ones in Resurrection didn't, they had digitigrade legs. From Resurrection onward is where the "logic" of the Alien design starts to fall apart - the ones in the first AvP movie are literally identical to the ones from Resurrection from the knees up, so any explanation of "human DNA mixing" to address the Resurrection ones goes right out the window. And the ones from AvP Requiem are identical to the ones from AvP from the neck down, but just like with 'Aliens', the "age" and "camouflage" explanations don't add up. And then you get to Covenant where the Alien is recognizably an Alien, but still really different.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 16, 2018, 06:02:52 AM
I'm not going to quote your whole post Xeno, but I'll just say this; the ones in Resurrection are mutants.
& AVP, AVPR don't count in my book.
AVP films had to reuse the suits due to budget issues I believe.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 16, 2018, 06:02:52 AM
Digitgrade legs isn't that far of a departure from the design principles either, with Alien Isolation etc
I think that was because of animation issue, CA commented on it.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 16, 2018, 07:42:18 AM
The Queen's biological structure, she has digitigrade legs.
What's happened is crossover on an organismal level due to cloning.
Everything took traits from both Ripley 8 and the Queen she bore.
I heard that explanation from someone else on here as well, I think it might have been SM.
It would mean that the mutation caused the Drones to have traits from the queen as well.
Yeah I've been pushing that line for yonks.
Here's a wild thought: might the queen at Hadley's have been a dogburster? Surely the colonists had at least some pets.
I see where you're going with that but I don't believe so, the emergence of a Queen-
why and how has never felt fully satisfactory to me though.
Even though the Praetorian caste system, purebreed and crossbreed from AVPE I accepted;
I always thought the sheer amount of mass needed for the Queen's size was excessive
even for the Alien, unless there's great parts of her structure that are actually hollow?
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 16, 2018, 08:42:38 AM
Alien Isolation I'd say is simply a retcon of the first two films or a design change that isn't canon,
depends what way you look at it.
It's not always arbitrary for what you can't add and can, you just need to trust me on this one-
there's certain things you can do and they'll work and others won't.
The Queen is an exception because she's functionally, in universe and otherwise different from the adult Alien.
The adult Alien's head needs to remain phallic if you want a good Alien design.
Adding mandibles, changing the jaw structure or adding/removing lips doesn't change that.
Dredlocks, horns and protrusions of that nature do- that's why they don't belong.
There's other, better ways to include the idea of horns or dredlocks without just hot-gluing them onto the design.
Why does Isolation have to be a retcon? Why can't the Alien's legs simply differ, for reasons unknown? As for everything else, it really does come down to a matter of opinion. If slapping horns or dreadlocks on a Alien is the visual shorthand a designer chooses to use, I'm really pretty okay with it. I totally get why other people would be turned off by it, but it's not like it's objectively "wrong". The head design in Resurrection (and by extension, AvP) ditches the overtly phallic design from the first 3 movies in favor of something more akin to the shape of a cockroach carapace. Does that mean it's wrong, or bad, or needs to be handwaved as "it's a mutant, TRUE Aliens don't look like that!"? I don't think so - maybe Aliens just look like that sometimes.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 16, 2018, 12:16:06 PM
Even though the Praetorian caste system, purebreed and crossbreed from AVPE I accepted;
Nothing in AVP:E needs to be accepted because those were just game mechanics, not an actual canon life-cycle/evolution.
Quote
The head design in Resurrection (and by extension, AvP) ditches the overtly phallic design from the first 3 movies in favor of something more akin to the shape of a cockroach carapace. Does that mean it's wrong, or bad, or needs to be handwaved as "it's a mutant, TRUE Aliens don't look like that!"? I don't think so - maybe Aliens just look like that sometimes.
Because in Resurrection they are mutants. That is not even a handwave, it is literally what they are. The AVP ones have no in-universe explanation, just the lack of budget meaning old suits had to be reused. The Predalien's dreadlocks are molds of the Runner's tail. They recycled a lot.
Yep, but there's an inclusion of a Queen Facehugger in A3, which is essentially the same thing as AVPE's Praetorian Facehugger.
They are not really the same. The royal facehugger could implant two embryos and they were affected by host type, the Preatorian facehugger could only implant one and the resulting Xenomorph was always the same.
Also the canonicity of the Queen facehugger is questionable as it seems the original cut of Alien 3 is canon, not the AC, but a Queen facehugger does feature in Sea of Sorrows which was suppose to be a canon trilogy.
What was the problem with the AvP Aliens?
They're fleshy when they have no (immediately obvious) reason to be. The aesthetic was justified in AR, in AvP it was budgetary.
Not that it matters, because Aliens don't exist until 100+ years after AvP anyway ;D
The fleshy appearance I think they were discussing, but if I recall right, it was because the suits had to be reused.
Now AVP-R Aliens...plenty wrong with them. :laugh:
Quote from: SM on Aug 17, 2018, 10:18:15 AM
What was the problem with the AvP Aliens?
Overbites?
God-damn overbites. Still same body suit as well, wasn't it? They only redid the heads.
Neck and hands as well.
Quote from: SiL on Aug 17, 2018, 10:19:46 AM
They're fleshy when they have no (immediately obvious) reason to be. The aesthetic was justified in AR, in AvP it was budgetary.
Not that it matters, because Aliens don't exist until 100+ years after AvP anyway ;D
Ah. I thought people were talking about the feet.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 17, 2018, 10:28:41 AM
God-damn overbites. Still same body suit as well, wasn't it? They only redid the heads.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 17, 2018, 10:31:59 AM
Neck and hands as well.
You guys mean the AVP ones or AVPR's? For AVP the ones from Alien R. were painted black, chicken legs were removed, I think the hands got smaller as well, on AVPR the heads were replaced with ones with the new ridges, then those big fat necks were added and their color changed a bit.
The hands were made fatter in AVP.
Quote from: SiL on Aug 17, 2018, 10:48:27 PM
The hands were made fatter in AVP.
Really?
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi8.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa10%2Fangremien%2FALIEN_WARRIORDRONE_Chart_001b.jpg&hash=f4d09d0e11f768f73d6cfdcd3cba7c81)
There at the botton we can have a comparison, from the picture the one from Alien R. looks really big.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi8.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa10%2Fangremien%2FALIENWARRIORDRONEChart5AlienRes01A.jpg&hash=e064a9faeb20bd562f695ae764551dcf)
Maybe they were fatter in AVP but the fingers seens longer on Alien R.
If you actually read the text it even says in the description that the AvP hands were made "fuller and stronger looking".
Yeah but from the pictures I dont see that. I might when I look at the movies again.
There's a lot to love in the designs from the first 3 movies. I like the hand designs in Aliens and A3.
While I think the AR design has a sort of cool factor to it, i dislike many many aspects of it. The hands for the creatures from AR through AvPR are just the worst imo.
Quote from: SiL on Aug 18, 2018, 12:53:05 AM
If you actually read the text it even says in the description that the AvP hands were made "fuller and stronger looking".
To be fair, they also say the 'headrest returns' (I assume the dorsal spike) - which it doesn't.
The fingers seem shorter in AvP despite have the same configuration.
It did in the design phase, they just didn't keep it in the actual film (there are photos of the AvP Aliens featuring them in the BTS shots and making of book.)
The hands are the same length, but the hand getting fattened makes the fingers look shorter.
EDIT
My mistake, they did proportionally enlarge the fingers too:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.slidesharecdn.com%2Favpthecreatureeffectsofadi-120920071625-phpapp01%2F95%2Favp-the-creature-effects-of-adi-13-728.jpg%3Fcb%3D1348125673&hash=77d6bf5453a0e1bd28cebe2b85d755b8c6648f76)
And dorsal spike
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.slidesharecdn.com%2Favpthecreatureeffectsofadi-120920071625-phpapp01%2F95%2Favp-the-creature-effects-of-adi-8-728.jpg%3Fcb%3D1348125673&hash=051f6ab00e9374bfb7ca52bfb9995a094a470037)
This is all OT, but if found the aliens head in AC to be too small in relation to his body. Something was off there for me, and everything else was negligible I found...
Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 17, 2018, 09:18:00 AM
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 16, 2018, 12:16:06 PM
Even though the Praetorian caste system, purebreed and crossbreed from AVPE I accepted;
Nothing in AVP:E needs to be accepted because those were just game mechanics, not an actual canon life-cycle/evolution.
Gonna disagree there - I thought the additions in AvP:E were often clever and certainly interesting, and I've got no problem with them being added to "the canon". By your reasoning, you could handwave anything out of any source as "not actual canon" by saying "oh but it's just a movie", "oh the studio mandated that the book include [whatever]", or something similar. The author is dead, and his game mechanics died with him - the behind the scenes "reason" why something is present doesn't change the fact that it's still present. :P
Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 17, 2018, 09:18:00 AM
Quote
The head design in Resurrection (and by extension, AvP) ditches the overtly phallic design from the first 3 movies in favor of something more akin to the shape of a cockroach carapace. Does that mean it's wrong, or bad, or needs to be handwaved as "it's a mutant, TRUE Aliens don't look like that!"? I don't think so - maybe Aliens just look like that sometimes.
Because in Resurrection they are mutants. That is not even a handwave, it is literally what they are. The AVP ones have no in-universe explanation, just the lack of budget meaning old suits had to be reused. The Predalien's dreadlocks are molds of the Runner's tail. They recycled a lot.
The thing is, the movie doesn't say the adult Aliens are mutants - it's something people have inferred because the Queen and Ripley were hybrids. You can make a case for them being mutants, certainly (and in all fairness, it's a theory I mostly agree with), but you can make a case that they're just Aliens. If they're mutants, where did the digitigrade legs come from? From the Queen? Why? Why would mixing human DNA suddenly give the adults legs like that?
Beyond that, what useful information is gained by concluding that they're mutants?
Quote from: SiL on Aug 17, 2018, 10:19:46 AM
Not that it matters, because Aliens don't exist until 100+ years after AvP anyway ;D
A common misconception ;D
Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 17, 2018, 10:12:15 AM
Also the canonicity of the Queen facehugger is questionable as it seems the original cut of Alien 3 is canon, not the AC, but a Queen facehugger does feature in Sea of Sorrows which was suppose to be a canon trilogy.
As far as Fox has ever publicly indicated, both versions are "canon".
Not to be snobbish, but you clearly don't understand how genetics work if you can't fathom the idea that in an artificial recreation of an animal- a trait normally only present in one caste/role would be carried over to multiple or all of them, hence digitigrade legs.
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 18, 2018, 04:31:02 AM
Not to be snobbish, but you clearly don't understand how genetics work if you can't fathom the idea that in an artificial recreation of an animal- a trait normally only present in one caste/role would be carried over to multiple or all of them, hence digitigrade legs.
Perhaps, but it's not like they were recreating the Alien from scratch. They cloned Ripley to get a Queen, and the Queen and Ripley's DNA overlapped to varying degrees with each clone attempt. So the act of cloning... destabilized the Queen's genetic code enough that now she'd pass the genetic information for her digitigrade legs down to the adult Aliens as an unintended byproduct?
I'm not a geneticist, are there real-world examples of things like that happening?
To be fair I suppose you could use the same logic to address why the backs of the Aliens' heads are no longer phallic - the underside is flat and ridged, like the Queen. Likewise the tip of the Resurrection Alien's tail is more like the Queen than like the Aliens from the first two. Framing it that way, I can kinda get behind the idea.
Of course this all goes out the window if one incorporates AvP (and yes, I recognize that you don't), or any other source that has digitigrade legs for human-born Aliens (Alien: Isolation, some of the comics).
It doesn't go out the window, it just can or cannot be logically explained on a case by case basis.
Alien Isolation, Labyrinth and Paradise Lost; both have digitrade legs as a stylistic choice with no discernible explanation.
Alien Resurrection however by the very nature of it's ambiguous genetic process is open to interpretation.
I think that's a reasonable assessment. :)
Quote from: Xenomrph on Aug 18, 2018, 04:22:42 AM
Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 17, 2018, 09:18:00 AM
Quote from: The Old One on Aug 16, 2018, 12:16:06 PM
Even though the Praetorian caste system, purebreed and crossbreed from AVPE I accepted;
Nothing in AVP:E needs to be accepted because those were just game mechanics, not an actual canon life-cycle/evolution.
Gonna disagree there - I thought the additions in AvP:E were often clever and certainly interesting, and I've got no problem with them being added to "the canon". By your reasoning, you could handwave anything out of any source as "not actual canon" by saying "oh but it's just a movie", "oh the studio mandated that the book include [whatever]", or something similar. The author is dead, and his game mechanics died with him - the behind the scenes "reason" why something is present doesn't change the fact that it's still present. :P
Feel free to disagree but I never said they weren't clever or interesting. :P I just said they were game mechanics, which is true. Extinction is a strategy game and such games have "roles" that need filling, so necessitates adding and making up castes/classes to fill those roles. Game mechanics are usually not canon because its nothing to do with story or lore, its a mechanic, and since a film and canon comics contradicted the mechanics in that game, specifically the purebreed/transbeed thing, its said and done. However said film can't really count anymore since Covenant and Prometheus erased that continuity. Unless you count Alien 3 as well.
The reasoning is not the same, because "its a just a movie" is not the same as saying its game mechanics. A movie tells a story which may or may not be canon but its a story nonetheless, game mechanics is seperate from storytelling hence the term "gameplay and story segregation", and they are designed with the player and gameplay in mind, not the lore. It' is not a bad thing, games with class systems often do this, as its a way to make unique roles with unique abilities. Sometimes its not even strategy or multiplayer games that get this, its a single player story driven games that have lore altering mechanics for the sake of gameplay as well. Isolation springs to mind. The Alien is not invincible as we know it can be killed, but the game makes it so because the game is a run and hide type of horror and it needs a threat that you cannot face.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 18, 2018, 10:08:45 AM
Game mechanics are usually not canon because its nothing to do with story or lore,
It's worth pointing out that AvP:E has a bestiary section where it literally goes out of its way to take gameplay mechanics and translate them into story/lore.
QuoteSometimes its not even strategy or multiplayer games that get this, its a single player story driven games that have lore altering mechanics for the sake of gameplay as well. Isolation springs to mind. The Alien is not invincible as we know it can be killed, but the game makes it so because the game is a run and hide type of horror and it needs a threat that you cannot face.
Same with shooting dozens of Aliens in the Sulaco hangar - the bottom of the ship - with no effect on the hull.
Quote from: Xenomrph on Aug 18, 2018, 10:27:45 AM
Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 18, 2018, 10:08:45 AM
Game mechanics are usually not canon because its nothing to do with story or lore,
It's worth pointing out that AvP:E has a bestiary section where it literally goes out of its way to take gameplay mechanics and translate them into story/lore.
Yes and I was grateful for that, as they took something that is needed to fill a role and gave it some information. Unlike A:CM where the castes come out of nowhere and there really is nothing to explain them.
Quote from: SM on Aug 18, 2018, 11:20:15 AM
QuoteSometimes its not even strategy or multiplayer games that get this, its a single player story driven games that have lore altering mechanics for the sake of gameplay as well. Isolation springs to mind. The Alien is not invincible as we know it can be killed, but the game makes it so because the game is a run and hide type of horror and it needs a threat that you cannot face.
Same with shooting dozens of Aliens in the Sulaco hangar - the bottom of the ship - with no effect on the hull.
And the legendary guns that either should not be in the places they were found or were destroyed. Hick's shotgun for example.
IIRC, some sections of the hangar have several meters of metal between the floor and the outer hull. We can see it when the dropship is lowered into the airlock prior to its launch.
(https://i.imgur.com/brFo0hB.jpg)
Except we don't know if that metal is full or somewhat hollow, Newt was able to hide within the floors remember, so there may be tunnels, maintence vents. Besides even if the metal was that thick, remember how many Aliens Winter and the team were killing in the hanger? One Alien corpse could melt through numerous floors, can you imagine what dozens of Alien corpses would do?
All I'm saying is that there was more between the hangar floor and outer space than a few inches of metal.
All you need is a few drops over the drop station or loading lock and say goodbye to the atmosphere.
So the queen was presumably not standing over one of those areas when she bled on the floor.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 18, 2018, 11:35:37 AM
Yes and I was grateful for that, as they took something that is needed to fill a role and gave it some information. Unlike A:CM where the castes come out of nowhere and there really is nothing to explain them.
If I remember rightly, in the pre-release coverage, it was said to be due to radiation fallout from the processor going up.
Quote from: SM on Aug 18, 2018, 11:20:15 AM
QuoteSometimes its not even strategy or multiplayer games that get this, its a single player story driven games that have lore altering mechanics for the sake of gameplay as well. Isolation springs to mind. The Alien is not invincible as we know it can be killed, but the game makes it so because the game is a run and hide type of horror and it needs a threat that you cannot face.
Same with shooting dozens of Aliens in the Sulaco hangar - the bottom of the ship - with no effect on the hull.
I really hope to see an Alien game where that is an actual mechanic.
You'll be waiting a while, real time destruction of the environment that compromises the player's navigation;
especially on a spaceship would be incredibly resource heavy.
It's only because Frostbite and Battlefield did such long scale destructible scenery that I thought it might be realistic in an Alien game now. I think the fan-game Alien: Hope for the Future is actually experimenting with that.
Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 18, 2018, 11:35:37 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on Aug 18, 2018, 10:27:45 AM
Quote from: The Cruentus on Aug 18, 2018, 10:08:45 AM
Game mechanics are usually not canon because its nothing to do with story or lore,
It's worth pointing out that AvP:E has a bestiary section where it literally goes out of its way to take gameplay mechanics and translate them into story/lore.
Yes and I was grateful for that, as they took something that is needed to fill a role and gave it some information. Unlike A:CM where the castes come out of nowhere and there really is nothing to explain them.
That's why I've got no problem accepting AvP:E's "game mechanic" stuff as "canon". :P
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Aug 18, 2018, 02:50:56 PM
It's only because Frostbite and Battlefield did such long scale destructible scenery that I thought it might be realistic in an Alien game now. I think the fan-game Alien: Hope for the Future is actually experimenting with that.
It might be doable via Red Faction: Guerilla's "GeoMod" engine - that game had a weapon called the Nano Rifle that would literally dissolve chunks of buildings.
The biggest problem I could see with real-time acid destruction is that on a large enough scale, it could make the game unwinnable if the player dissolves too much of the environment.
Perhaps something more akin to Rainbow Six: Siege, where bullets can pierce walls and floors - it's more of a procedurally-generated cosmetic thing. Treat Alien acid blood drops like physical objects such as bullets or grenade shrapnel, with similar effects on the environment.