Hello everyone,,
I've always been a little fascinated with the first Predator ship, briefly seen flying past the camera to Earth in the opening shot of the Original film. I guess it's known colloquially by fans as the, "Scout Ship".
Looking at it, something that I noticed is that, while it's interesting, nothing about it explicitly screams, "Predator Design" like all the others do.
In all the other films, the ships were an extension of the Predator "look" for the film.
It's as Predator as it can be.
If you like it, there are several others stored on Predator mothership in first AvP.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJLQ5rF5.jpg&hash=fe2d0e7a98a9b9d32c79dad063e2051179a059c2)
(https://www.avpcentral.com/images/predator-spaceships/classic-ship.png)
Other then it being a basic design, I never considered it drastically different than the other Predator ships.
Now the interior of these ships, that's a different story. I absolutely love the tribal, advanced yet ancient ship interior we saw in "Predator 2" only for it to be discarded for the loathsome cold steel, more human design used by the Crabators in AvP. So frustrating!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/p2-ship02.jpg)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/p2-ship07.jpg)
Same thing seems to be a case in The Predator. AvP-R? I can't really tell. To damn dark. In Predators we have no interiors, so yeah P2 is still absolutely the best.
In the AvPR docs, one of the Strause brothers said that the "Predator 2" ship was a big inspiration in designing the Predator homeworld with the look, the color palette, etc. which made me pretty happy.
(https://www.predatorium.com/forums/attachments/th-3-jpeg.269384/)
So I do believe that, if the Strause brothers didn't have to stay somewhat consistent with AvP in regards to the previous ship and the Predalien birth to start their movie, we would have seen Predator ship interiors more faithful to what was shown in Predator 2 in AvPR.
They didn't have to. They even changed the altar, Scar was placed on after his demise.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 06, 2019, 08:10:08 PM
http://i.imgur.com/JLQ5rF5.jpg
(https://www.avpcentral.com/images/predator-spaceships/classic-ship.png)
Other then it being a basic design, I never considered it drastically different than the other Predator ships.
Now the interior of these ships, that's a different story. I absolutely love the tribal, advanced yet ancient ship interior we saw in "Predator 2" only for it to be discarded for the loathsome cold steel, more human design used by the Crabators in AvP. So frustrating!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/p2-ship02.jpg)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/p2-ship07.jpg)
Just flyin' through space in my giant gator head.
Quote from: Master on Mar 06, 2019, 08:53:47 PM
They didn't have to. They even changed the altar, Scar was placed on after his demise.
Yes they made slight alterations, but I remember one of the Strause bros saying they needed to remain somewhat consistent because they were doing a sequel. Now is that a result of an internal code or studio mandate, I really don't know, but I do get it.
Quote from: Huggs on Mar 06, 2019, 08:56:27 PM
Just flyin' through space in my giant gator head.
Umm, exsqueezeme?
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 06, 2019, 09:05:31 PM
Quote from: Master on Mar 06, 2019, 08:53:47 PM
They didn't have to. They even changed the altar, Scar was placed on after his demise.
Yes they made slight alterations, but I remember one of the Strause bros saying they needed to remain somewhat consistent because they were doing a sequel. Now is that a result of an internal code or studio mandate, I really don't know, but I do get it.
Quote from: Huggs on Mar 06, 2019, 08:56:27 PM
Just flyin' through space in my giant gator head.
Umm, exsqueezeme?
John Davis. This is probably the answer you seek.
I know that these guys are hunters. Can you imagine Yautja military units/ships?
Jesus.
Quote from: Master on Mar 06, 2019, 09:08:24 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 06, 2019, 09:05:31 PM
Quote from: Master on Mar 06, 2019, 08:53:47 PM
They didn't have to. They even changed the altar, Scar was placed on after his demise.
Yes they made slight alterations, but I remember one of the Strause bros saying they needed to remain somewhat consistent because they were doing a sequel. Now is that a result of an internal code or studio mandate, I really don't know, but I do get it.
Quote from: Huggs on Mar 06, 2019, 08:56:27 PM
Just flyin' through space in my giant gator head.
Umm, exsqueezeme?
John Davis. This is probably the answer you seek.
2nd picture.
Looks just like an alligators head.
Quote from: Master on Mar 06, 2019, 08:53:47 PM
They didn't have to. They even changed the altar, Scar was placed on after his demise.
Since they were showing the same ship at the beginning, they kind of did.
They could've gone with a classical interior when they move onto the smaller ship, though.
I was fine with the change in interiors if only because they see in infrared meaning that the color, lights, and smoke are pretty much inconsequential to begin with. On some level I'd even find that harder for them to maneuver seeing as it doesn't seem uncommon to walk around without your helmet. They'd probably trip on something with all that smoke. Calibrating that helmet must be a pain in the ass.
To me though it's always been stylistic differences between individuals and clans to explain the differences.
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Mar 07, 2019, 04:00:59 AM
I was fine with the change in interiors if only because they see in infrared meaning that the color, lights, and smoke are pretty much inconsequential to begin with. On some level I'd even find that harder for them to maneuver seeing as it doesn't seem uncommon to walk around without your helmet. They'd probably trip on something with all that smoke. Calibrating that helmet must be a pain in the ass.
To me though it's always been stylistic differences between individuals and clans to explain the differences.
I believe I am recalling correctly that what you're looking at isn't smoke, but a result of the warm air temperatures Predators require to function properly. A type of advection fog which forms as warm moist air moves over a colder floor. So we're not talking aesthetics here, but rather function.
Plus Predators seem pretty organized so I wouldn't worry about them leaving something on the ship floor to trip on. ;)
Nah, they tend to throw their stuff around. Predstors are dirty slobs, I bet they are tripping all the time.
Well serves them right then! They parked underground which tends to have a great deal of humidity and they left their doors wide open! What are they doing, heating the outside? :laugh:
Well good thing for them, it could be once they seal up and take off, their fog problem leaves too.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 07, 2019, 11:48:49 AM
Well serves them right then! They parked underground which tends to have a great deal of humidity and they left their doors wide open! What are they doing, heating the outside? :laugh:
Well good thing for them, it could be once they seal up and take off, their fog problem leaves too.
I always interpreted that the oxygen mix on their ship was slightly different than Earth. Hence why I assume City Hunter used his breathing apparatus. Or the mask could have used a vapor based medicine similar to morphine, for pain or extra adrenaline.
These are all assumptions however.I would love to see a cross-section book of vehicles and predator tech much like this...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FaCY5aFG.jpg&hash=03b1165f6825272526b287d9e249e2eff36c6be5)
I know people love it being open ended, but I am a guy who likes definite answers.
Quote from: AhabPredator on Mar 07, 2019, 12:41:36 PM
I always interpreted that the oxygen mix on their ship was slightly different than Earth. Hence why I assume City Hunter used his breathing apparatus. Or the mask could have used a vapor based medicine similar to morphine, for pain or extra adrenaline.
These are all assumptions however.
I would love to see a cross-section book of vehicles and predator tech much like this...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FaCY5aFG.jpg&hash=03b1165f6825272526b287d9e249e2eff36c6be5)
I know people love it being open ended, but I am a guy who likes definite answers.
Well if you like answers, you'll like this clip. :)
I do like your idea of vapor based medicine through the mask for pain or extra adrenaline. Especially the adrenaline.
And a book like that would be amazing! And would require a hell of a lot of research. Although the author gets paid, those books always seem to be a labor of love.
Considering those guys doing coke at the start of them movie I'd love it if the mask was specifically built to get City Hunter hopped up. Thematically that would bizarrely bring it all home.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 07, 2019, 01:35:01 PM
Quote from: AhabPredator on Mar 07, 2019, 12:41:36 PM
I always interpreted that the oxygen mix on their ship was slightly different than Earth. Hence why I assume City Hunter used his breathing apparatus. Or the mask could have used a vapor based medicine similar to morphine, for pain or extra adrenaline.
These are all assumptions however.
I would love to see a cross-section book of vehicles and predator tech much like this...
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FaCY5aFG.jpg&hash=03b1165f6825272526b287d9e249e2eff36c6be5)
I know people love it being open ended, but I am a guy who likes definite answers.
Well if you like answers, you'll like this clip. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYwEdJiQuko
I do like your idea of vapor based medicine through the mask for pain or extra adrenaline. Especially the adrenaline.
And a book like that would be amazing! And would require a hell of a lot of research. Although the author gets paid, those books always seem to be a labor of love.
I think it's one of the better theories of explaining that.
I shall view that clip.
Quote from: AhabPredator on Mar 07, 2019, 02:58:28 PM
I shall view that clip.
It's only 17 seconds. It's not one of your MauLer vids ;D
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 07, 2019, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: AhabPredator on Mar 07, 2019, 02:58:28 PM
I shall view that clip.
It's only 17 seconds. It's not one of your MauLer vids ;D
I did. Much to short and very vague. Citations required.
:laugh:
Maybe that's something to look into. As it seems nothing like that has been done for Predator. I think there is one for Alien however?
I'm game, as long as it contains at least 40 minutes on the differences between objective and subjective :P ;D
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 07, 2019, 04:02:53 PM
I'm game, as long as it contains at least 40 minutes on the differences between objective and subjective :P ;D
:laugh: That was my favorite part honestly.
Curious that video link refers to trying to imply the interior of the ships are hot, because the thermal image made it clear they were incredibly
cold:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray1228.jpg)
Quote from: AhabPredator on Mar 06, 2019, 09:51:34 PM
I know that these guys are hunters. Can you imagine Yautja military units/ships?
Jesus.
The first of the AVP films had some sort of orbital tunnelling laser, although that was just heating its way through snow/ice. No way to know what it might do to other materials.
Aside from that, they haven't really shown any capabilities we don't already possess in a different form...
We still don't know what their shoulder cannon things even fire. In the first film, it blows a hole through someone's chest, but at other times, all it does is heat some skin off of Dutch's arm and shoulder. A lot of fans assume it to be plasma, but it doesn't act anything like plasma (which would bounce around in random directions and can't be made to fire down a straight line) and had electrical sparks flowing around it in at least the very first film.
Everything else is basically a variation of our own bladed weapons through history or grenades. An argument could easily be made that, in terms of capability, we could even potentially out-match them.
They seem to have a very bizarre mixture of advanced and antiquated technology. I was really surprised to find that the recent sequel depicted them using what looks like old jet turbine engines to fly their ships along in our atmosphere.
A part of the redesign (and I'm pretty sure this was covered in The Predator's art book) was that the ships having to go in atmosphere and in space meant that the ships have to do both. Thus you end up with futuristic rockets and jet turbines. That's also why the ships are more bladed in shape and look a bit like space jets. You don't actually need an aerodynamic shape in space (you actually could do a brick with jets), but since Predator ships do have to go in atmosphere they just keep it a bit more aerodynamic for that reason. The turbine thing however isn't new to the movies as the ship in 2010's Predators actually possess this feature.
The turbines presumably being for smaller craft to maneuver easier in atmosphere where the typical engines we see are for space. At least that's the idea.
I believe the interior where it shows the POV being cold is a goof. The Infrared they see in the helmets distinguish between humanoids and the environment whereas in their regular vision they simply don't account for this. Thus the vision in the interior of the ship is supposed to be more like the Jungle Hunter's once he removed his mask but its instead as if City Hunter kept his on. We could make the argument that the ship is just cold or the fog is distorting the City Hunter's vision but I'm pretty sure it's just a mistake.
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 09, 2019, 01:57:22 PM
Curious that video link refers to trying to imply the interior of the ships are hot, because the thermal image made it clear they were incredibly cold:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/predator2/bluray/orig_bluray1228.jpg)
Obviously the thermal image is just creative license, especially after hearing the director explain the dry ice was used to simulate a "hot environment". Plus Anna said in Predator that Predators only come to Earth "in the hottest years", and the City Hunter came to LA during a heatwave.
All of this surely suggests Predators clearly like/need the heat like a cold-blooded animal... until AvP f*cked it all up of course. :-\
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 09, 2019, 04:55:06 PM
All of this surely suggests Predators clearly like/need the heat like a cold-blooded animal... until AvP f*cked it all up of course. :-\
I've never considered this a f**k-up...the point of the mission in AvP was to it was supposed to be hard and to prove themselves. Hunting in conditions they don't particularly enjoy is fitting with that.
Also the pyramid was heated, and they clearly make a point that it wasn't built when the place was frozen (which would make it millions of years old but OK whatever).
Heated? Nah. Everyone is wearing winter coats, gloves, etc. throughout the pyramid scenes.
Quote from: Corporal Hicks on Mar 11, 2019, 09:57:09 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 09, 2019, 04:55:06 PM
All of this surely suggests Predators clearly like/need the heat like a cold-blooded animal... until AvP f*cked it all up of course. :-\
I've never considered this a f**k-up...the point of the mission in AvP was to it was supposed to be hard and to prove themselves. Hunting in conditions they don't particularly enjoy is fitting with that.
That's a fair point. I would have been fine with that I guess, if the rest of the Predators showed up in bio suits designed to keep them warm.
But combine that with the horrible Predator facial changes and the ship interior changes, and it all felt like to me one giant middle finger to what came before it.
* edited for grammar
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 11, 2019, 12:09:00 PM
Heated? Nah.
"That heat signature your satellite picked up makes a lot more sense now Mr Weyland."
"The heat bloom was the signal to lure us down here."
The fact there's dripping water in multiple locations.
I'm not saying it's tropical, but the pyramid being heated is literally the macguffin that starts the movie :P
Quote from: SiL on Mar 11, 2019, 12:24:26 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 11, 2019, 12:09:00 PM
Heated? Nah.
"That heat signature your satellite picked up makes a lot more sense now Mr Weyland."
"The heat bloom was the signal to lure us down here."
The fact there's dripping water in multiple locations.
I'm not saying it's tropical, but the pyramid being heated is literally the macguffin that starts the movie :P
That's the power source. Power sources gives off heat. Heat and heated are two different things.
The pyramid was not "heated" in the context we are discussing where Predators only come to Earth "in the hottest years" and would have found the Pyramid comfortable to their nature. If so, the humans would have found it stifling and felt the need to take off their winter jackets and their gloves, which they didn't, obviously, because it wasn't.
The scans show that the walls are also warmed up; it's not just the power source.
Also:
QuoteI'm not saying it's tropical
"Warmer than Antarctica in the spring" does not necessarily mean "warm", just "not freezing".
The walls have power surging through them. The pyramid is one giant moving jenga puzzle! But it's not heated, certainly to the apparent comfort level previously established by Predators and not even to the lesser extent humans require to comfortably take off their winter jackets, so one can reasonably assume its function is not to heat, but just a byproduct of such power.
I feel this is getting into semantic territory but, yes, I agree.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 09, 2019, 04:55:06 PM
Obviously the thermal image is just creative license, especially after hearing the director explain the dry ice was used to simulate a "hot environment". Plus Anna said in Predator that Predators only come to Earth "in the hottest years", and the City Hunter came to LA during a heatwave.
The image is what it is. It's demonstrating a totally cold environment, devoid of
any heat.
Predators coming to Earth during particularly hot times might not necessarily be a temperature preference for them. It might be them responding to
human behaviour which occurs more during those time. More people likely to be driven by anger and frustration, more likely to engage in violence and such.
Could also be something to do with our location in the solar system during those times. Who knows?
Point is, their ship in the sequel is most definitely cold and they don't seem to care, at all.
And you know what? That makes a
lot of sense. Because if they evolved somewhere hot, they wouldn't perceive things in terms of thermal imaging - their environment would blind them! Predators evolving in a naturally
cool environment, however, would mean thermal sensitivity allows them to be attracted to the heat sources of prey.
So, it might well be that they're more used to cool temperatures and hotter environments are what they perceive as more of a challenge. We just assume otherwise because their skin makes them seem reptilian, but they could easily be warm-blooded. Or even have metabolism which causes them to radiate a lot of heat (which, in turn, might further help to explain them evolving thermal vision, in order to better locate one another) and, thus, prefer to retire somewhere cool.
Or "Predator 2" director Stephen Hopkins knows what he's talking about and the ship was hot. :P
I don't think so.
Considering the error of the mask on/off and yet the heat vision is identical.
Quote from: The Old One on Mar 22, 2019, 04:03:52 PM
I don't think so.
Considering the error of the mask on/off and yet the heat vision is identical.
Nearly! Not
quite identical. The mask has the GUI overlay and more detail with thermal outlines. Whereas the biological vision they are born with is more "fuzzy" and primitive. If that makes sense?
Or again, "Predator 2" director Stephen Hopkins knows what he's talking about and the ship was hot. :P
When you realize the high temperatures of sun baked concrete and pavement are in actuality a much higher degree than humans' internal body temperature, you know creative licenses are being taken with the Predator's thermal vision.
TY for the information.
It's incongruous, regardless.
Real City Thermal Vision (not even in the intense heat fictionalized in "Predator 2")
(https://i.ibb.co/FJ90yxw/IMG-20190322-121710.jpg)
City Hunter's Thermal Vision, beginning of the movie, those are cops on the streets facing the Columbian gang.
(https://i.ibb.co/p3YrzkH/IMG-20190322-122138.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/chjzBQv/IMG-20190322-123415.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/pLrdPks/IMG-20190322-123356.jpg)
An organic filter can't even be hypothesized because of some buildings, some cars, gunfire and the explosion detected in thermal.
Creative license people. When the director said the ship was hot, the ship was hot.
Yeah I was pretty sure it was an error, although considering The Predator implies the usage of cybernetics that'll be my no-prize explanation for how City Hunter's vision didn't change when the mask came off.
Admittedly a colder environment would make sense for the homeworld and ship though seeing as too much heat would make things hard to navigate. I guess everybody got caught up in "hottest time of year" thing and forgot its super hard to navigate like that. But alternatively that might explain the nature of later ships and it being as dark as it is seeing as color and light sources are pretty much irrelevant to them outside of heat reflection.
It's irrelevant what a director happens to personally think, if that contradicts what's on screen.
The masks apply a filter, but the Predator wasn't wearing one when it looked at the guy. So, it was cold.
Honestly not seeing why this is so objectionable. It's not as if the place activated anything until it was launching. Makes sense for it to have been cold.
Whereas a being to have evolved in an a hot environment, to perceive everything in terms of thermal output, would not. :)
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 24, 2019, 09:42:48 PM
It's irrelevant what a director happens to personally think, if that contradicts what's on screen.
The masks apply a filter, but the Predator wasn't wearing one when it looked at the guy. So, it was cold.
Honestly not seeing why this is so objectionable. It's not as if the place activated anything until it was launching. Makes sense for it to have been cold.
Whereas a being to have evolved in an a hot environment, to perceive everything in terms of thermal output, would not. :)
A filter. Right. An illogical filter that makes no sense on screen. Director had no clue what the "steam" was for. Neither did Danny Glover. They're both wrong. All this is concluded from thermal imagery that was wrong throughout the entire movie. Filter or not. It was creatively, illogically painted in post for the audience. But it was an illogic filter!
Such nonsense.
What steam? Steam rises.
Quote from: SiL on Mar 24, 2019, 11:01:03 PM
What steam? Steam rises.
Hopkins & Glover called it steam. In the video. It's shorthand for people not familiar with the science I assume.
What I said earlier in this thread:
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 07, 2019, 04:51:08 AM
I believe I am recalling correctly that what you're looking at isn't smoke, but a result of the warm air temperatures Predators require to function properly. A type of advection fog which forms as warm moist air moves over a colder floor. So we're not talking aesthetics here, but rather function.
But obviously it was used to visually create a "hot environment".
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 24, 2019, 10:12:58 PM
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 24, 2019, 09:42:48 PM
It's irrelevant what a director happens to personally think, if that contradicts what's on screen.
The masks apply a filter, but the Predator wasn't wearing one when it looked at the guy. So, it was cold.
Honestly not seeing why this is so objectionable. It's not as if the place activated anything until it was launching. Makes sense for it to have been cold.
Whereas a being to have evolved in an a hot environment, to perceive everything in terms of thermal output, would not. :)
A filter. Right. An illogical filter that makes no sense on screen. Director had no clue what the "steam" was for. Neither did Danny Glover. They're both wrong. All this is concluded from thermal imagery that was wrong throughout the entire movie. Filter or not. It was creatively, illogically painted in post for the audience. But it was an illogic filter!
Such nonsense.
But that's what I was saying. It was
not wearing a mask at the time. Therefore, no thermal 'dampening' filter to only highlight life could have been applied.
Quote from: SiL on Mar 24, 2019, 11:01:03 PM
What steam? Steam rises.
This, too. It could have been literally what it most likely was on set: Due to cold, not heat.
Again, if their natural environment is one of high temperature, why would they have evolved to perceived their prey with thermal sensitivity? Everything would blind them, in the same way their human adversaries take advantage of in the third film.
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 26, 2019, 09:36:06 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 24, 2019, 10:12:58 PM
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 24, 2019, 09:42:48 PM
It's irrelevant what a director happens to personally think, if that contradicts what's on screen.
The masks apply a filter, but the Predator wasn't wearing one when it looked at the guy. So, it was cold.
Honestly not seeing why this is so objectionable. It's not as if the place activated anything until it was launching. Makes sense for it to have been cold.
Whereas a being to have evolved in an a hot environment, to perceive everything in terms of thermal output, would not. :)
A filter. Right. An illogical filter that makes no sense on screen. Director had no clue what the "steam" was for. Neither did Danny Glover. They're both wrong. All this is concluded from thermal imagery that was wrong throughout the entire movie. Filter or not. It was creatively, illogically painted in post for the audience. But it was an illogic filter!
Such nonsense.
But that's what I was saying. It was not wearing a mask at the time. Therefore, no thermal 'dampening' filter to only highlight life could have been applied.
Quote from: SiL on Mar 24, 2019, 11:01:03 PM
What steam? Steam rises.
This, too. It could have been literally what it most likely was on set: Due to cold, not heat.
Again, if their natural environment is one of high temperature, why would they have evolved to perceived their prey with thermal sensitivity? Everything would blind them, in the same way their human adversaries take advantage of in the third film.
I think the disconnect here is you're looking at Predator 2 through the same scientific prism you would view Apollo 13, The Martian, or Gravity. Through a scientific, logical lens, but only in areas of your choosing.
I look at Predator 2 through a comicbook lens, where I see illogical scenes throughout the movie but don't get hung up on he should have reloaded there because in real life he would have ran out of bullets, his death didn't make sense, they wouldn't have fallen that way, whoah that disappeared, reappeared, then disappeared, that was cut out of order, those clothes are too warm for the apparent heatwave because it was really cool while filming those scenes, they sparingly and illogically painted the City Hunter's helmet thermal vision, oh for some reason City Hunter's eye thermal vision looks the same in the slaughterhouse freezer meat storage plant, as it does hanging from Danny Glover's arm outside in the heatwave night, as it does in the ship.
In the ship, it wouldn't surprise me if Hopkins wanted it looking hot, but didn't want rising steam to obscure the character's faces. I wouldn't want that either as a director. Dry ice stays low and looks cool? Awesome.
I'll take the director's word 1,000 times out of 1,000 over a fellow fan in situations like this, picking when to apply logic and when to ignore logic with thermal vision to dispel if the director was simulating a hot ship environment or not, when said director confirmed in a documentary he was, while the star on-set confirms it with humor. Cheers.
I'm looking at it through the prism of consistency. :)
A director's views are largely irrelevant, compared with what made it on screen. Just look at Ridley Scott's 101 ideas of off-tangent craziness... The thermal showed it's a cool environment and it makes sense for Predators to have naturally evolved in a cool environment. Ergo, I find nothing objectionable to accepting it as portraying precisely that.
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 27, 2019, 04:45:06 PM
I'm looking at it through the prism of consistency. :)
A director's views are largely irrelevant, compared with what made it on screen. Just look at Ridley Scott's 101 ideas of off-tangent craziness... The thermal showed it's a cool environment and it makes sense for Predators to have naturally evolved in a cool environment. Ergo, I find nothing objectionable to accepting it as portraying precisely that.
What consistency?
Without a biomask, the City Hunter's eye thermal vision looks the same in three different temperature environments: The freezing slaughterhouse freezer meat storage plant. The hot heatwave night. The ship. Nothing in the Predator's vision changes, even though the temperature changes. Plus, the City Hunter's eye thermal vision looks the same as its biomask thermal vision.
And speaking of the biomask, not only does its vision look the same with the biomask on or off, but the City Hunter's thermal vision is only picking up select objects as hot during the heatwave. Some buildings. People. Explosions. Gunfire. Some cars. Where true thermal vision would have the concrete and pavement and all the cars hotter than the people themselves in the sun baked heatwave. Not just a few select objects here and there.
This is all simply a product of artists adding color to black and white thermal images taken during the winter in LA, in a rushed production.
The only consistency here, is the thermal vision is consistently wrong.
No, there's no pixilation and more 'fluidity' to the movement, compared to the mask's filtration, which is different. I believe the colourisation didn't look red because they admitted they forgot to use post-production effects to match the original film's, but it is what it is. Maybe this, in itself, is a difference between genders or species, like the additional ridges and spikes might be.
Again, why would their native environment be hot if they evolved to perceive and track prey by thermal output?
Quote from: Xenomorphine on Mar 28, 2019, 02:31:05 PM
No, there's no pixilation and more 'fluidity' to the movement, compared to the mask's filtration, which is different. I believe the colourisation didn't look red because they admitted they forgot to use post-production effects to match the original film's, but it is what it is. Maybe this, in itself, is a difference between genders or species, like the additional ridges and spikes might be.
I just looked at the biomask vision in the graveyard versus the unmasked vision in the meat plant and didn't notice any additional pixilation or fluidity.. even though that's pretty thin to begin with. Sorry, but except for the readout on the side, it really is the same vision.
QuoteAgain, why would their native environment be hot if they evolved to perceive and track prey by thermal output?
Because their biology requires it?
Could Predators use other senses? Do they have echolocation? Who knows. But the Jungle Hunter had no problem moving around with his helmet off, navigating a rough unbalanced jungle environment, as he was beating the hell out of Dutch and detecting a possible trap, while I the viewer couldn't see sh*t in that Red Vision.
There's clearly more going on than we understand here, or need to. The Predator does just fine in hot environments with his helmet off.
The native environment would have to be fairly cold for them to see properly. Though based on skin patterns it would seem that they are typically more yellowish if anything. Though this is complicated by them having skin patterns of green, red, blue, and grey. So while they have evolved to prioritize infrared vision, they've also evolved a skin patterning like tiger stripes in some individuals. However they are also counter shaded typically in darker shades of blue, brown and black.
So despite their individual colors being irrelevant to them due to their natural vision, they've evolved some manner of pigmentation. Meaning that something in their environment notices them like we would and they've evolved skin patterning as a result. That would make some manner of sense seeing as real snakes do the same thing. However this is on the front whereas they are counter shaded on the back like whales and Ibexes. So what the Hell do they encounter that this is such a common trait?
It would assist them in hunting but considering that they're back is fairly dark it means the environment of Yaujta prime is pretty dark or the planet itself is dark. If the environment was dark it might be to hide themselves from other creatures like the ones they are hunting, but how would the Yaujta even know about this trait to take advantage of it? They'd have a natural camo but due to their vision they'd have no idea they had it. The homeworld to me makes more sense to be a very dark place because if it's commonly in darkness it would explain the vision and why they gravitate towards warmer climates. Granted it could be pretty warm, but I doubt it would actually be blisteringly hot because the Predator would essentially be blind.
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Mar 28, 2019, 03:43:32 PM
The native environment would have to be fairly cold for them to see properly. Though based on skin patterns it would seem that they are typically more yellowish if anything. Though this is complicated by them having skin patterns of green, red, blue, and grey. So while they have evolved to prioritize infrared vision, they've also evolved a skin patterning like tiger stripes in some individuals. However they are also counter shaded typically in darker shades of blue, brown and black.
So despite their individual colors being irrelevant to them due to their natural vision, they've evolved some manner of pigmentation. Meaning that something in their environment notices them like we would and they've evolved skin patterning as a result. That would make some manner of sense seeing as real snakes do the same thing. However this is on the front whereas they are counter shaded on the back like whales and Ibexes. So what the Hell do they encounter that this is such a common trait?
It would assist them in hunting but considering that they're back is fairly dark it means the environment of Yaujta prime is pretty dark or the planet itself is dark. If the environment was dark it might be to hide themselves from other creatures like the ones they are hunting, but how would the Yaujta even know about this trait to take advantage of it? They'd have a natural camo but due to their vision they'd have no idea they had it. The homeworld to me makes more sense to be a very dark place because if it's commonly in darkness it would explain the vision and why they gravitate towards warmer climates. Granted it could be pretty warm, but I doubt it would actually be blisteringly hot because the Predator would essentially be blind.
Except...
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Mar 28, 2019, 03:11:26 PM
The Jungle Hunter had no problem moving around with his helmet off, navigating a rough unbalanced jungle environment, as he was beating the hell out of Dutch and detecting a possible trap, while I the viewer couldn't see sh*t in that Red Vision.
There's clearly more going on than we understand here, or need to. The Predator does just fine in hot environments with his helmet off.
Just embrace the heat.... ;D
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3b/1e/8f/3b1e8fbfc4e38ec27498f3c869d3116f.gif)
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/5042c99a6371303a8288978d30710fb2/tumblr_nwjgeacbva1udtm0qo1_400.gif)
That gif of Wolf taking off just gave me a new appreciation for what little we see of that place. There's skyscrapers in the distance, a massive temple, there's even a ship coming in off in the distance. It just make me want to see what a Predator city would look like.
Although if the planet is volcanic, that alternatively might work. They do seem to be able to route lava flow and in that shot we can see that they've built structures around and above it. So maybe your right, it's not a perfect answer but seeing the rocky architecture and a preference for geometric shapes might make the whole vision thing work. That being said the surrounding rock probably wouldn't look like the jungle of Val Verde meaning that JH probably should've fallen on his ass a couple of times, but the environment mostly works.
The native environment wouldn't need to be "cold", no. We have snakes on this Earth; they use heat to detect prey, and they live in warm environments. Hello from Australia, home to the 10 deadliest species -- and home to some of the hottest temperatures on Earth during the last summer. Those snakes need that warmth to live, being cold-blooded; but our summer temperatures don't blind them.
So heat-seeking =/= cold environment.
However!
Predators are about challenge. They're about the sport of the hunt. The idea that they prefer the heat not because it's comfortable for them, but the opposite, is entirely in keeping with their characterisation. They want to push themselves. They want to challenge themselves. What better challenge than putting yourself in an environment that's inherently uncomfortable to be in?
People put way too much stock in "only in the hottest years they come" as an indication of the Predators' preferred environment (to the point where Concrete Jungle has them pissing off the second it starts raining). What if, instead, it's just another layer of inconvenience they put on themselves to make the hunt that bit more exciting?
Also keep in kind -- meat lockers are cold. They have to be to keep meat preserved. Not only was the City Hunter not uncomfortable or put off by being in the warehouse, but he also wasn't harmed by liquid nitrogen. Does that sound like an organism that can't function properly outside of a hot environment?
Predators using the heat as a challenge rather than a convenience actually solves a lot more issues (such as AvP's setting and City Hunter not giving half a shit about the meat warehouse) than vehemently trying to make the Predator a heat-only organism.
Some time ago I did a compilation article on the different Predator Ships (https://www.avpcentral.com/predator-spaceships). Probably needs to be updated with the Upgrade Predator ship and some other stuff from the comics.
Quote from: SiL on Mar 30, 2019, 12:57:19 PM
The native environment wouldn't need to be "cold", no. We have snakes on this Earth; they use heat to detect prey, and they live in warm environments. Hello from Australia, home to the 10 deadliest species -- and home to some of the hottest temperatures on Earth during the last summer. Those snakes need that warmth to live, being cold-blooded; but our summer temperatures don't blind them.
So heat-seeking =/= cold environment.
However!
Predators are about challenge. They're about the sport of the hunt. The idea that they prefer the heat not because it's comfortable for them, but the opposite, is entirely in keeping with their characterisation. They want to push themselves. They want to challenge themselves. What better challenge than putting yourself in an environment that's inherently uncomfortable to be in?
People put way too much stock in "only in the hottest years they come" as an indication of the Predators' preferred environment (to the point where Concrete Jungle has them pissing off the second it starts raining). What if, instead, it's just another layer of inconvenience they put on themselves to make the hunt that bit more exciting?
Also keep in kind -- meat lockers are cold. They have to be to keep meat preserved. Not only was the City Hunter not uncomfortable or put off by being in the warehouse, but he also wasn't harmed by liquid nitrogen. Does that sound like an organism that can't function properly outside of a hot environment?
Predators using the heat as a challenge rather than a convenience actually solves a lot more issues (such as AvP's setting and City Hunter not giving half a shit about the meat warehouse) than vehemently trying to make the Predator a heat-only organism.
I always thought the Bouvetoya being cold thing provided them with an extra challenge, but what you said works too.
So did I, but hey.
I feel like the first Predator ship could've totally originally been intended for a completely different film.
Yeah, as much as I like the design, it doesn't particularly feel too Predator in terms of the general design aesthetic of the creatures technology.
We're talking the original Predator ship from the original Predator film? Yeah, I have always found the overall design rather uninspired.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/avp/images/2/22/P1-ship01.png/revision/latest?cb=20120619125445)
Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on May 23, 2019, 05:33:36 AM
I feel like the first Predator ship could've totally originally been intended for a completely different film.
Or for a completely different Predator?
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcf.broadsheet.ie%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F04%2Fpred0.jpg&hash=fea54ac9580c17d695a6e63f26b5594c7c52f9dd)
It seems to suit him/her more.
Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on May 23, 2019, 05:33:36 AM
I feel like the first Predator ship could've totally originally been intended for a completely different film.
Agreed. It's ok, but something about it just seems off. Like, it's not convincing that it's supposed to belong to the Predators. It doesn't fit with the look of their technology or even the aesthetics of the Predators themselves. The shape isn't angular enough, and the grey color is...idk boring :D (poor reasoning, I know.) There's little gradient to it.
It's worth keeping in mind that the Predator as we know it changed during production, so the ship for the flyby was probably made before that point. And even if it wasn't, the Predator ship is only on screen for so long.
ADI for all it's good and ill did do a lot for ironing out the Predator aesthetic.
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on May 23, 2019, 07:48:31 PM
ADI for all it's good and ill did do a lot for ironing out the Predator aesthetic.
How so?
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 23, 2019, 08:03:36 PM
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on May 23, 2019, 07:48:31 PM
ADI for all it's good and ill did do a lot for ironing out the Predator aesthetic.
How so?
In the case of the ships, they do follow the designs put forth by ADI. AVP basically solidified the Predator aesthetic in the ships because even KNB has echoes of the mothership in the 2010 film. Post-AVP the ships look a bit more consistent with the exception of Wolf's since we only see it from the back.
That doesn't really have anything to do with ADI, they don't design ships.
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on May 23, 2019, 08:28:05 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 23, 2019, 08:03:36 PM
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on May 23, 2019, 07:48:31 PM
ADI for all it's good and ill did do a lot for ironing out the Predator aesthetic.
How so?
In the case of the ships, they do follow the designs put forth by ADI. AVP basically solidified the Predator aesthetic in the ships because even KNB has echoes of the mothership in the 2010 film. Post-AVP the ships look a bit more consistent with the exception of Wolf's since we only see it from the back.
I never personally felt the Super Predator ship echoed the work in the AvPs. Actually I recall them being very animate not to recognize anything associated with the AvP films including design influence.
Now my baby is right here:
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oafe.net%2Fyo%2Fart%2Fnecacinmac2lts2.jpg&hash=8467359688260aa8e04486186251390a8a564311)
And any interior besides the one shown in P2? Fogetaboutit!
The KNB ended up using similar design elements. The arrowhead body and engine placement came out of AVP, although that's not to say that ADI didn't pick up anything from them because the swooping lines ended up on Fugitive's ship. But I give ADI the credit in this regard since they worked on more ships as opposed to KNB's one, and that we simply don't see the original design as often if at all. And we haven't seen the P2 ship in full outside of the model created after the fact.
I don't necessarily agree with all their decisions, but since they ended up doing more on the franchise and KNB used cues from them, I give the credit for the aesthetic on the ships to them.
@SuperiorIronMan - When Predators was made, they first were only acknowledging Predator as canon. Then later, they brought Predator 2 into the fold. But the AVPs were out.
Both Predators and AVP drew inspiration from the first film, but independently. Creating variations of the first Predator ship and comics will understandably result in ships with some similarities, but I just disagree with you that the Super Predator ship had "echoes of the mothership" i.e. the Super Predator ship's design was inspired from the AVP Mother ship. Nope, I just don't see it. Not with what I know and not with how they look imo.
(https://i.ibb.co/SwsxD4F/IMG-20190523-224016.jpg)
Also, you do have to stop referencing ADI and KNB with these ships.
Quote from: The Old One on May 24, 2019, 01:32:40 AM
Is SiL chopped liver or something?
Yes, SiL is chopped liver, I'm ground beef, and you're gummi worms and together we're delicious!
Quote from: The Old One on May 24, 2019, 01:32:40 AM
Quote from: SiL on May 23, 2019, 10:48:08 PM
That doesn't really have anything to do with ADI, they don't design ships.
Is SiL chopped liver or something?
ADI's not responsible for the ship designs, not a one.
Hell, they didn't even design the body armour in The Predator.
I like that Predators ship, but prefer the Los Angeles Hunting Party ship.
Quote from: Erik Lehnsherr on Jun 19, 2019, 12:19:05 PM
I like that Predators ship, but prefer the Los Angeles Hunting Party ship.
Yes! That ship environment is what elevates Predator above standard sci-fi design. We need more of that!
I agree, do it, next Director.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2019, 03:29:42 AM
...Nope, I just don't see it. Not with what I know and not with how they look imo.
(https://i.ibb.co/SwsxD4F/IMG-20190523-224016.jpg)
I see it, especially while looking at engines.
Quote from: Kradan on Jun 19, 2019, 05:17:59 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 24, 2019, 03:29:42 AM
...Nope, I just don't see it. Not with what I know and not with how they look imo.
(https://i.ibb.co/SwsxD4F/IMG-20190523-224016.jpg)
I see it, especially while looking at engines.
The engines come from the top, not from the bottom. Plus there's four engines not two.
Nah, if anything I find more resemblance to the Predator 1 ship than the AVP ship.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJLQ5rF5.jpg&hash=44605495aaf4447ff4f4ba8a65996867)
I like all of the exteriors. The interior of the P2 ship makes the others look mundane. Hell the interior of the Nostromo makes them look boring.
Quote from: razeak on Jul 31, 2019, 07:07:31 PM
I like all of the exteriors. The interior of the P2 ship makes the others look mundane. Hell the interior of the Nostromo makes them look boring.
Yeah I don't know what Paul W. S. Anderson was thinking but his plain, boring, very human, lackluster Predator ship interior in AVP became the new standard to follow. :'(
I think the actual problem with it is coloration.
AVP-R for the limited amount of time we see it is too dimly lit that we can't see enough of the detailing (there's a bunch of it in those shots). And then we're just not on the Mothership as long and only in certain parts of the ship so it didn't have to be as detailed or well lit.The Predator had a better idea with the organic lines, but it being metallic silver and gray makes it harder to appreciate. Those shots on the the Assassin's ship would look much better assuming it had more color (or at least a wider range).
It's not just the detail on the P2 interior that made it special, it's that it had more going on and because it had this yellowish color it allowed all the darker detail-work to pop. You had the fog, the pulsing lights, more color, and since we spend a climax in there it has to be detailed. The later ships get a lot of that right, but in modernizing the arsenal they made it less visually interesting to look at. It makes sense for it to look like that, but it blends in with dozens of other ship interiors.
I agree about the colouration and as Ridley Scott is aware- adding vapour adds a lot of atmosphere. And from The Predator I really enjoyed the shield concept.
Quote from: SuperiorIronman on Aug 01, 2019, 02:38:49 AM
I think the actual problem with it is coloration.
AVP-R for the limited amount of time we see it is too dimly lit that we can't see enough of the detailing (there's a bunch of it in those shots). And then we're just not on the Mothership as long and only in certain parts of the ship so it didn't have to be as detailed or well lit.The Predator had a better idea with the organic lines, but it being metallic silver and gray makes it harder to appreciate. Those shots on the the Assassin's ship would look much better assuming it had more color (or at least a wider range).
It's not just the detail on the P2 interior that made it special, it's that it had more going on and because it had this yellowish color it allowed all the darker detail-work to pop. You had the fog, the pulsing lights, more color, and since we spend a climax in there it has to be detailed. The later ships get a lot of that right, but in modernizing the arsenal they made it less visually interesting to look at. It makes sense for it to look like that, but it blends in with dozens of other ship interiors.
But does it really make more sense? Honestly, the "fog, pulsing lights, and color" bring to mind more imagery of temperature fluctuations (which goes along with their sight) than cold, sterile metal. Idk, seems to me the former fits better.
Yeah, it wasn't just color. Beyond it's coloring and ancient Mayan like hieroglyphics, the P2 ship was designed to appear almost organic. The pulsing moving lights were to simulate breathing and a heartbeat. The fog representing heat.
While The Predator took some minor corrective steps back in the right direction compared to AVP, they both remain absolutely uninspired to me in regards to the ship interiors.
Now with AVP-R, I don't blame the Strauss brothers for the dull ship interiors. They had to make a literal direct sequel to Anderson's AVP, leaving them little room for corrective measures. At least in the docs the Strauss bros expressed their appreciation for the P2 Ship and used it as their inspiration for the Predator homeworld. So to their credit, they respected what came before it where they could.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Aug 01, 2019, 03:10:08 AM
Yeah, it wasn't just color. Beyond it's coloring and ancient Mayan like hieroglyphics, the P2 ship was designed to appear almost organic. The pulsing moving lights were to simulate breathing and a heartbeat. The fog representing heat.
I feel like "alive spaceship" is more in Alien's teritory than Predator's.
I don't necessarily, Predator's territory is feeling alive, Alien's is feeling dead.
Quote from: Kradan on Aug 01, 2019, 07:45:55 AM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on Aug 01, 2019, 03:10:08 AM
Yeah, it wasn't just color. Beyond it's coloring and ancient Mayan like hieroglyphics, the P2 ship was designed to appear almost organic. The pulsing moving lights were to simulate breathing and a heartbeat. The fog representing heat.
I feel like "alive spaceship" is more in Alien's teritory than Predator's.
I don't know. I've always liked to think maybe the Predator ship was created around a large lifeform, an energy-filled organism that they captured and harness for power.
But organic, breathing and heartbeat are not my words or assumptions. Those are adjectives used by the film's crew in interviews that I'm just repeating. So at least the appearance of organic was definitely their intention.
If I remember correctly, similar verbiage shows up in the other media forms too, like novelizations, that describe Predator tech as being "alive" and organic. I could just be ascribing it to the recent AvP novels, though - that stands out the most to me.
It certainly provides another level of mystery to Predators. I definitely like it.
I don't honestly agree, from appearance the Predators, Jungle Hunter and City Hunter's technology always felt mechanical, constructed and disposable- the ship felt as though it's built from the influence of ancient stone shrines on the homeworld with the centre roof resembling a continent or a stretched pelt, markings outlining stories adorning the curved surface of the inside of the ship. The heat and the air the only thing pulsating, perhaps from a extremely powerful engine.
But it never struck me as alive, the texture of the place just isn't organic and doesn't suggest growth.
Yeah I don't think there's been a confirmation one way or another of it being organic, just a confirmation that they designed it to appear "organic" with a "heartbeat". The rest is wonderfully left ambiguous for fans to decide.
I think if it was indeed organic like a gigantic single cell organism, I would imagine the Predators built the ship around it, inside and outside of it, to harness the organism's power. And it would explain the ancient stones and shrines on the inside, as well as the shell outside.
It's funny, the ship mist sometimes reminds me of the "cave" mist in Empire Strikes Back where it turned out to be no cave, but the belly of a space slug!
I don't know, it's very Star Trek Encounter at Farpoint.
Using something living as a spaceship is just something I'd attribute more to the Alien side of things. And I do love the idea. It's just not something I'd ever think as suitable for the Predators.
I agree but I see the Derelict as an organism yes, but not in the traditional sense.