If we do not get a sequel to Covenant, how will you mentally connect the prequels with the original films? Do you think they can be connected at this point, or would you write them off completely?
Where would the films and your own head canon take you, if you were left to bridge the gap on your own?
I would ignore the prequel angle.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 05, 2019, 01:05:51 AM
I would ignore the prequel angle.
So the new Scott films would just be their own universe?
Flushed along with AvP to the bowels of creative bankruptcy from whence they came.
Quote from: Huggs on May 05, 2019, 01:07:23 AM
So the new Scott films would just be their own universe?
Same universe. Just not officially connected.
There's this one series on youtube that continues on as a fanmade sequel to Covenant. They treat the engineers as servitors, bioengineered by a grander race (original jockey's) whom have also lost themselves to their own powers of creation. It rights some wrongs while not explicitly throwing away anything established thus far.
Ignoring that I imagine the last film would be an all-out war on Origae 6 between David and his Xenomorphs against the Engineers gunnin' for his ass with the colonists caught in the middle. During all this chaos David takes the time to load up one of their juggernauts for flight to another planet, however he eventually succumbs to an engineer who likewise gets blindsided by a facehugger during transit, and eventually crashing it on 426.
If nothing comes through with a final film, well I'd disregard them like Resurrection and the AVPs and still primarily focus on the main trilogy as the core films in the franchise.
I'd still see them as connected to the original. I already do, why would I change my mind.. I'll just be sad because the story will never be finished.
Quote from: 0321recon on May 05, 2019, 05:20:56 AM
If nothing comes through with a final film, well I'd disregard them like Resurrection and the AVPs and still primarily focus on the main trilogy as the core films in the franchise.
It would be a little bit of a shame though...At least the new movies broke new ground and tried to show us new stuff...but yeah...
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 05, 2019, 02:04:43 AM
Flushed along with AvP to the bowels of creative bankruptcy from whence they came.
With 'The Predator' as a worthy addition...shall we call it "Best of the worst" anthology film series?
Quote from: Huggs on May 05, 2019, 12:53:27 AM
If we do not get a sequel to Covenant, how will you mentally connect the prequels with the original films? Do you think they can be connected at this point, or would you write them off completely?
Where would the films and your own head canon take you, if you were left to bridge the gap on your own?
Well, on one hand...If I choose to consider Prometheus & Covenant as part of the canon, the Alien remains as something ancient (cos the Derelict).
But on the other hand...If I choose to ignore Prometheus & Covenant as part of the canon, the Alien remains as something ancient (cos the Derelict).
Won't somebody help me, please? :-\
Engineers got hold of some of David's eggs at some point and ultimately landed on LV-426.
Or per Advent, David stored some there and the Engineers on the Derelict find them.
It means the franchise ultimately has four unsuccessful prequels.
You would have to pull a rabbit out of a hat to save Ridley Scott's prequel series at this point anyway.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on May 06, 2019, 01:22:18 AM
Well, on one hand...If I choose to consider Prometheus & Covenant as part of the canon, the Alien remains as something ancient (cos the Derelict).
But on the other hand...If I choose to ignore Prometheus & Covenant as part of the canon, the Alien remains as something ancient (cos the Derelict).
This right here.
I'm not really keen on Prometheus but I love Covenant - I sort of view it as a self-contained movie and I think it's as good as the originals. It won't make a difference to me, however, if they never conclude the prequels. Of course, I'd still love to see where the story goes next, but it always feels like a gamble these days and it's not worth worrying about.
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 05, 2019, 02:04:43 AM
Flushed along with AvP to the bowels of creative bankruptcy from whence they came.
Good times to be a fan!
I'll be OK with how it ended. Just imagine: ship full of eggmorphed colonists with madshit android on it traveling somewhere in space, It's f**king ticking time bomb. If somebody find it we're doomed.
For me, prequels are separate story even in spite of their name. I don't want them to be connceted to Alien because i don't see any satisfactive way to do it. I don't like recent crashlanding idea.
Quote from: Kradan on May 07, 2019, 10:06:06 PM
For me, prequels are separate story even in spite of their name. I don't want them to be connceted to Alien because i don't see any satisfactive way to do it. I don't like recent crashlanding idea.
Agreed. I don't see them making it satisfying either. I don't mind the idea of the Covenant, just out there, with thousands of eggmorphed colonists. I strongly dislike the idea of it being related to the Derelict in some fashion. I don't want any bookending.
Well given that Ridley has totally wasted the oppourtunity and source material he had to work with and utterly spoiled the mythos of the Space Jockey with giant pale humanoids i would be happy to totally forget the prequels even though i quite like Covenant.
Nobody is stopping you.
It would be another mess.
John Logan is talented but he's not above some wonky plotting and hoary dialogue.
No tears shed.
(Get Villeneuve in here).
It ends in a satisfactory way with a new ship of eggs heading into deep space. I see no reason to believe those eggs are to be the eggs on Archeron.
More than happy to see a Scott sequel though and see where it goes.
They could and should drop the tie-in to the original.
It would provide more creative freedom and maybe, just maybe, third time's the charm.
Loose ends in the Alien franchise don't bother me that much.
There is little connection story wise between "Alien 3" and "Resurrection" beyond it's Ripley's DNA, xenomorphs are still around 200 years later & scientists still want to experiment on them to create super soldiers.
And the end of "Resurrection" was never continued.
The film is very self contained.
I see the prequels in a similar way. They are a two part self contained story in the Alien universe.
Only they do a decent job in adding to the viewer's knowledge about this universe in terms of the Space Jockeys as well as the Weyland Corporation who both set the stage for the events in "Alien".
;)
I have thought about that since Covenant came out. A reason I have a problem with movies that rely too much on their open ending is the possibilty it never gets done and the story ends up incomplete. And since this is part of favorite series, I don't like that crap.
So far the "Prequels" feel like they are their own thing rather actual prequels like the ones in Star Wars were, they are just set before Alien and on the same universe, like the AVP movies were, trying to tie with the events on ALIEN thus retconing stuff would make things worse.
Still as of now Prometheus and the Covenant novel are in my canon, if David's story never gets concluded I will make some headcanon about what might have happened to him and the colonists. I would keep them on my AVP Timeline because f**k it I already put them there. And depending on what Ridley might do I might prefer nothing at all, or making a sequel to Covenant through a comic/novel with me as a consultant of course. :P
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 06, 2019, 04:04:30 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 05, 2019, 02:04:43 AM
Flushed along with AvP to the bowels of creative bankruptcy from whence they came.
Good times to be a fan!
The Golden Age of this fandom is long gone.
It's "long gone" only if you reject the great diversity this property now consists of.
40 years on, and it's growing, not shrinking.
-Windebieste.
Agreed.
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 15, 2019, 03:35:04 AM
I have thought about that since Covenant came out. A reason I have a problem with movies that rely too much on their open ending is the possibilty it never gets done and the story ends up incomplete. And since this is part of favorite series, I don't like that crap.
So far the "Prequels" feel like they are their own thing rather actual prequels like the ones in Star Wars were, they are just set before Alien and on the same universe, like the AVP movies were, trying to tie with the events on ALIEN thus retconing stuff would make things worse.
Still as of now Prometheus and the Covenant novel are in my canon, if David's story never gets concluded I will make some headcanon about what might have happened to him and the colonists. I would keep them on my AVP Timeline because f**k it I already put them there. And depending on what Ridley might do I might prefer nothing at all, or making a sequel to Covenant through a comic/novel with me as a consultant of course. :P
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 06, 2019, 04:04:30 PM
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 05, 2019, 02:04:43 AM
Flushed along with AvP to the bowels of creative bankruptcy from whence they came.
Good times to be a fan!
The Golden Age of this fandom is long gone.
The ship gets obliterated by a stray asteroid.
The fandom is fine. We just got some seriously high quality shorts for the 40th anniversary, and amateur artists are creating some really good work. My depressingly mediocre fan fiction is still a thing :)
We've had a recent slew of good novels
Fox has been taken over by an evil corporation that actually knows what its doing
Gibson's script is about to be released as an audio drama
We survived Requiem and The Predator.
We'll be fine
Reckon.
Quote from: windebieste on May 15, 2019, 03:47:02 AM
It's "long gone" only if you reject the great diversity this property now consists of.
We can call now the Silver Age.
Quote from: windebieste on May 15, 2019, 03:47:02 AM
40 years on, and it's growing, not shrinking.
That's what she said.
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 11:27:52 AM
The ship gets obliterated by a stray asteroid.
Now that's anticlimactic. I suppose it fits David in a way.
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 11:27:52 AM
The fandom is fine. We just got some seriously high quality shorts for the 40th anniversary, and amateur artists are creating some really good work. My depressingly mediocre fan fiction is still a thing :)
Never said its dying or at its worse ever, just that its peak is gone. I can still enjoy stuff for what they are.
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 11:27:52 AM
We've had a recent slew of good novels
They were mostly fine. Comics not so much.
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 11:27:52 AM
Fox has been taken over by an evil corporation that actually knows what its doing
Considering Star Wars I disagree.
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 11:27:52 AM
We survived Requiem and The Predator.
Funny but the only thing that almost killed AVPGalaxy was AVP 2004. It endured those 2 fine. Still... Requiem damaged the AVP concept even more and The Predator... well we are getting a new game so I guess it wasn't enough to make them give up.
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 11:27:52 AM
We survived Requiem and The Predator.
Just imagine yourself some decades later saying "You, new fans, don't unterstand a bit about matters you're talking ! Dammit, i survived Requiem and The Predator! Survived, bitches!"
Quote from: Kradan on May 16, 2019, 06:32:40 PM
Dammit, i survived Requiem and The Predator! Survived, bitches!"
Which b*tches did you survive?
Quote from: Kradan on May 16, 2019, 06:32:40 PM
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 11:27:52 AM
We survived Requiem and The Predator.
Just imagine yourself some decades later saying "You, new fans, don't unterstand a bit about matters you're talking ! Dammit, i survived Requiem and The Predator! Survived, bitches!"
*Kids today, with their logical stories and well lit cinematography
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 16, 2019, 12:51:13 PM
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 11:27:52 AM
Fox has been taken over by an evil corporation that actually knows what its doing
Considering Star Wars I disagree.
It really depends who you've got at the helm. Marvel has been kicking ass for 11 years and counting. Kathleen Kennedy ain't no Kevin Fiege.
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 18, 2019, 03:27:11 AM
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 16, 2019, 12:51:13 PM
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 11:27:52 AM
Fox has been taken over by an evil corporation that actually knows what its doing
Considering Star Wars I disagree.
It really depends who you've got at the helm. Marvel has been kicking ass for 11 years and counting. Kathleen Kennedy ain't no Kevin Fiege.
I don't know much about the guy, but he apparently seems concerned with both the quality of the end product and the customer.
Not political sermons and a quick cash grab.
We need somebody like that for Alien and Predator.
Quote from: Huggs on May 18, 2019, 04:00:48 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 18, 2019, 03:27:11 AM
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 16, 2019, 12:51:13 PM
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 16, 2019, 11:27:52 AM
Fox has been taken over by an evil corporation that actually knows what its doing
Considering Star Wars I disagree.
It really depends who you've got at the helm. Marvel has been kicking ass for 11 years and counting. Kathleen Kennedy ain't no Kevin Fiege.
I don't know much about the guy, but he apparently seems concerned with both the quality of the end product and the customer.
Not political sermons and a quick cash grab.
We need somebody like that for Alien and Predator.
That and he went into the game with an achievable long-term plan, and convinced those involved that being patient and doing the setup work would pay off big in the end. 'Avengers: Endgame' only works as well as it does because it's got a full decade and 21 movies of character building and setup behind it. Shit, the first Avengers movie only worked as well as it did because they took the time to set up each character in their own movie first.
If you try to build a franchise without having some kind of plan in place, you end up with something like the Justice League.
Davids eggs are not the same as Jockey eggs. That's how I'll roll.
Amen bro...without an official answer, there is no need to think that David had anything to do with the Derelict or the eggs.
Other than creating the eggs in the first place.
But that upsets people.
Yeah, that and the fact that David's ovomorph is slightly different from the original ones. Also, I'm afraid we need a direct connection to be sure that David's actions made it possible whatever happened on LV-426. Without that, it's just wishful thinking or fanon at best.
So?
The ones at Hadley looked different to the ones on the Derelict.
Canon thread incoming.
Quote from: Huggs on May 18, 2019, 04:00:48 AM
I don't know much about the guy, but he apparently seems concerned with both the quality of the end product and the customer.
Not political sermons and a quick cash grab.
We need somebody like that for Alien and Predator.
Indeed. I already had enough of directors using these movies as a platform for something else on Prometheus and The Predator.
Quote from: SM on May 20, 2019, 12:01:54 AM
So?
That upsets people.
Quote from: SM on May 20, 2019, 12:01:54 AM
The ones at Hadley looked different to the ones on the Derelict.
But but! the Space Jockey, the huge cargo hold, the jockeyburster, and the eggs! don't forget the eggs!
How one can be sure that David's action had something to do with the whole thing? That is another movie/book/TV series, my friend. So yeah, without the gospel, it's still too dark to actually see what it is in the room. :-\
Quote from: SM on May 20, 2019, 12:01:54 AM
The ones at Hadley looked different to the ones on the Derelict.
Fair enough anyway.
As things stand eggs with facehuggers came from David at some point.
QuoteHow one can be sure that David's action had something to do with the whole thing?
Because he invented the organism.
Quote from: SiL on May 20, 2019, 12:38:35 AM
QuoteHow one can be sure that David's action had something to do with the whole thing?
Because he invented the organism.
The gospel is incomplete but fair enough.
Quote from: SM on May 20, 2019, 12:43:30 AM
Quote from: Local Trouble on May 19, 2019, 11:47:53 PM
But that upsets people.
Apparently.
Fan backlash is a thing.
(https://i.imgur.com/EpimC1k.jpg)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/RIeDRaNgtR2yKbTBEK/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on May 20, 2019, 02:06:23 AM
Quote from: SiL on May 20, 2019, 12:38:35 AM
QuoteHow one can be sure that David's action had something to do with the whole thing?
Because he invented the organism.
The gospel is incomplete but fair enough.
The gospel said David made the Alien.
For verily it is written in the book of David that he didst spake "I've created it. Perfect organism." And "I'll do the fingering" also.
Quote from: SM on May 20, 2019, 02:51:56 AM
For verily it is written in the book of David that he didst spake "I've created it. Perfect organism." And "I'll do the fingering" also.
Pretty sure that last one's from "Songs of Solomon".
Quote from: SiL on May 20, 2019, 02:40:23 AM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on May 20, 2019, 02:06:23 AM
Quote from: SiL on May 20, 2019, 12:38:35 AM
QuoteHow one can be sure that David's action had something to do with the whole thing?
Because he invented the organism.
The gospel is incomplete but fair enough.
The gospel said David made the Alien.
This is true within the context of Covenant, but may not be true within the broader context of the franchise, and we've gone in circles about this a hojillion times. :P
Fans can believe whatever they want to believe about the Derelict,
especially if we get no more movies to connect David to it.
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 20, 2019, 04:54:32 AM
This is true within the context of Covenant
...and Fox's current canon for the series.
Which is how each of this hojillian conversations goes.
Quote from: SM on May 20, 2019, 02:51:56 AM
For verily it is written in the book of David that he didst spake "I've created it. Perfect organism." And "I'll do the fingering" also.
Alien Genesis, Chapter One
1. In the Beginning there was the Goo, and it was Good.
2. And David looked upon the Goo, and said Let There Be Life.
Quote from: SiL on May 20, 2019, 06:41:25 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 20, 2019, 04:54:32 AM
This is true within the context of Covenant
...and Fox's current canon for the series.
Which is how each of this hojillian conversations goes.
This thread isn't about "Fox's current canon", though, it's literally about "head canon".
"Canon discussions" are a two-way street - if people start a topic with the pretext of referring to "the official canon" then bringing up "headcanon" isn't necessarily helpful (a point you've made in other threads), but when people
aren't talking about "official canon", then bringing it up is obnoxious and does nothing but stifle discussion.
And yes I recognize that it was SM who steered the discussion in that direction, but
reinforcing him isn't helpful. :P
QuoteThis thread isn't about "Fox's current canon", though, it's literally about "head canon".
Yeah cool.
Head canon is that the film canon is David made the Alien ergo is connected to the derelict either directly or indirectly because of course he would be.
Quote from: SiL on May 20, 2019, 07:25:10 AM
QuoteThis thread isn't about "Fox's current canon", though, it's literally about "head canon".
Yeah cool.
Head canon is that the film canon is David made the Alien ergo is connected to the derelict either directly or indirectly because of course he would be.
I think you're going to have to rephrase that because I can't parse it to save my life. ???
Head canon doesn't always equal "official canon", that's what makes it head canon.
"David didn't make the Aliens, because the Derelict contradicts it by being ancient" is an entirely acceptable interpretation of the movies, regardless of "the official canon".
Likewise, "David didn't create the Aliens because I totally disregard the prequels from my headcanon" is entirely acceptable (and has literally been said in this thread since the first page).
I feel like I shouldn't have to explain this. ???
edit-- I mean unless you're stating what your
own head canon is, I can't tell.
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 20, 2019, 08:51:26 AM
Quote from: SiL on May 20, 2019, 07:25:10 AM
QuoteThis thread isn't about "Fox's current canon", though, it's literally about "head canon".
Yeah cool.
Head canon is that the film canon is David made the Alien ergo is connected to the derelict either directly or indirectly because of course he would be.
I think you're going to have to rephrase that because I can't parse it to save my life. ???
Head canon doesn't always equal "official canon", that's what makes it head canon.
"David didn't make the Aliens, because the Derelict contradicts it by being ancient" is an entirely acceptable interpretation of the movies, regardless of "the official canon".
Likewise, "David didn't create the Aliens because I totally disregard the prequels from my headcanon" is entirely acceptable (and has literally been said in this thread since the first page).
I feel like I shouldn't have to explain this. ???
edit-- I mean unless you're stating what your own head canon is, I can't tell.
They are saying it must because David made the Egg in Covenant, so he has to be responsible. Considering how often Scott changes his mind, this could be just as likely or unlikely as any other scenario in this thread though.
I think Scott has said we'd come into the back end of Alien somehow, so joining the dots it's probably likely the Derelict isn't that old at all.
* Throws Alien on heap beside Game of Thrones and Star Wars
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 20, 2019, 08:51:26 AM
I mean unless you're stating what your own head canon is, I can't tell.
I thought head canon was always taken as personal. My bad. Add "my" to my sentence.
Quote from: SiL on May 20, 2019, 10:08:37 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 20, 2019, 08:51:26 AM
I mean unless you're stating what your own head canon is, I can't tell.
I thought head canon was always taken as personal. My bad. Add "my" to my sentence.
Yeah I was having trouble parsing what you were saying, thanks for the clarification. :)
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 20, 2019, 06:51:01 AM
"Canon discussions" are a two-way street - if people start a topic with the pretext of referring to "the official canon" then bringing up "headcanon" isn't necessarily helpful (a point you've made in other threads), but when people aren't talking about "official canon", then bringing it up is obnoxious and does nothing but stifle discussion.
And yes I recognize that it was SM who steered the discussion in that direction, but reinforcing him isn't helpful. :P
Hear! Hear!
Is it a good time to bring up the mural?
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 20, 2019, 01:45:30 PM
Is it a good time to bring up the mural?
Yeah why not?
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0e/96/1d/0e961d135d1d85dde275cd7bce03db2d.jpg)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fzbow6.jpg&hash=a98982aecd2f8ecaf57d0b2b70b12d56f8d14b9e)
Part about being the deacon being a Queen is wrong, but those look like facehuggers. Its not like Ridley cares if he needs to retcon stuff from Prometheus to get what he wants. So whatever is on either Alien, Prometheus and Covenant doesn't matter. He can retcon over it all.
How ironic.
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 20, 2019, 01:53:19 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 20, 2019, 01:45:30 PM
Is it a good time to bring up the mural?
Yeah why not?
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0e/96/1d/0e961d135d1d85dde275cd7bce03db2d.jpg)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fzbow6.jpg&hash=a98982aecd2f8ecaf57d0b2b70b12d56f8d14b9e)
Part about being the deacon being a Queen is wrong, but those look like facehuggers. Its not like Ridley cares if he needs to retcon stuff from Prometheus to get what he wants. So whatever is on either Alien, Prometheus and Covenant doesn't matter. He can retcon over it all.
I know this claim has the weight of a package of popcorn, but I think Lindelof said that for him, the Deacon was a young queen or something 😝
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on May 20, 2019, 09:05:49 PM
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 20, 2019, 01:53:19 PM
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 20, 2019, 01:45:30 PM
Is it a good time to bring up the mural?
Yeah why not?
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0e/96/1d/0e961d135d1d85dde275cd7bce03db2d.jpg)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fzbow6.jpg&hash=a98982aecd2f8ecaf57d0b2b70b12d56f8d14b9e)
Part about being the deacon being a Queen is wrong, but those look like facehuggers. Its not like Ridley cares if he needs to retcon stuff from Prometheus to get what he wants. So whatever is on either Alien, Prometheus and Covenant doesn't matter. He can retcon over it all.
I know this claim has the weight of a package of popcorn, but I think Lindelof said that for him, the Deacon was a young queen or something 😝
Well, we don't know exactly how the deacon's lifecycle would procede after the chestburst. How it would try to reproduce? There are similarities between its lifecycle and the one of a normal alien. Since it was the only of its type, it could eventually try to morph into something similar of an alien queen in order to reproduce. Like how alien drones morphed into queens in some EU works when there is no other in proximity.
I think the Mural is misunderstood.
I could be wrong but when they are in the mural room- It is when David touches the black goo urns & remarks, ' Organic' that the 'Paintings in the ceiling begin to change. Shaw notices this and thinks they've 'contaminated the environment in the room'
Holloway soon after shines a light on the mural for the first time
Therefore I hypothesise that the mural is in fact a form of 'Black goo mirror' or a form of readout of the shape of reaction the organisms in the room will turn into as a result in contact with the substance. The shapes we see are what is to become...
The Deacon we see at the end of the film is essentially a Proto Human Facehugger & Engineer, this is just a consequence of that combination. The Deacon is a one off aberration, the black goo leaves scope for even more horrific creatures to exist. Ultimately the black goo is the root.
The origin of the classic Xenos is I believe going to remain the result of David, personally in terms of the bigger picture I love this decision & thus the spirit of Gigers original bio tech vision is in place & respected in order to develop further in the future.
Most recent mural discussion thread
https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=60997.0
I guess in the end it's not really the Alien that's the problem, it's the face hugger and the egg.
Alien things have clearly been roaming about since before he was introduced.
You can't make fans believe David did it because most don't want to.
And every non-fan I've asked about it didn't even realise that was Covenant's implication in the first place.
Quote from: The Old One on May 24, 2019, 03:57:02 PM
You can't make fans believe David did it because most don't want to.
And every non-fan I've asked about it didn't even realise that was Covenant's implication in the first place.
They didn't?
Quote from: The Old One on May 24, 2019, 03:57:02 PM
You can't make fans believe David did it because most don't want to.
And every non-fan I've asked about it didn't even realise that was Covenant's implication in the first place.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/MmESDq88ofNde/giphy.gif)
No, I don't.
Quote from: Huggs on May 24, 2019, 03:59:34 PM
Quote from: The Old One on May 24, 2019, 03:57:02 PM
You can't make fans believe David did it because most don't want to.
And every non-fan I've asked about it didn't even realise that was Covenant's implication in the first place.
They didn't?
My Dad, at least.
Quote from: The Old One on May 24, 2019, 04:24:02 PM
Quote from: Huggs on May 24, 2019, 03:59:34 PM
Quote from: The Old One on May 24, 2019, 03:57:02 PM
You can't make fans believe David did it because most don't want to.
And every non-fan I've asked about it didn't even realise that was Covenant's implication in the first place.
They didn't?
My Dad, at least.
I've seen the same thing in a ton of discussions on non-Alien forums. I've lost count of how many times I've seen people say "David couldn't have invented the Alien, because we saw eggs on that ship in the first movie".
Of course you would say that though.
It supports your POV.
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 24, 2019, 08:34:06 PM
Quote from: The Old One on May 24, 2019, 04:24:02 PM
Quote from: Huggs on May 24, 2019, 03:59:34 PM
Quote from: The Old One on May 24, 2019, 03:57:02 PM
You can't make fans believe David did it because most don't want to.
And every non-fan I've asked about it didn't even realise that was Covenant's implication in the first place.
They didn't?
My Dad, at least.
I've seen the same thing in a ton of discussions on non-Alien forums. I've lost count of how many times I've seen people say "David couldn't have invented the Alien, because we saw eggs on that ship in the first movie".
Nah, I've seen the opposite. What I've seen is most causual movie fans that like Alien among dozens of different franchises don't even think about it that hard, or sit there questioning conflicting facts.
Either they think David created the Alien or the moment flew by them and they never put two and two together in the first place.
Agreed mostly the latter, and for instance a streamer my Brother watches "Teo" played Alien Isolation recently
and thought the Space Jockey was a Prometheus reference.
Yeah, not surprised.
Bloody casuals lol.
Quote from: The Old One on May 25, 2019, 04:18:08 AM
Of course you would say that though.
It supports your POV.
You think I'm lying? ???
Because I genuinely have seen that in discussions on other forums, quite a bit.
No, just suspect. Everything on the internet from someone's word alone always is.
Quote from: The Old One on May 25, 2019, 06:00:16 PM
No, just suspect. Everything on the internet from someone's word alone always is.
Believe what you want I guess, I can't stop you. :)
I just want to wake up and hear that we're getting a new Alien movie.
Quote from: Huggs on May 26, 2019, 02:41:59 AM
I just want to wake up and hear that we're getting a new Alien movie.
How about a David movie? Still sorta an Alien movie. But they removed it from the title?
Quote from: Huggs on May 26, 2019, 02:41:59 AM
I just want to wake up and hear that we're getting a new Alien movie.
*cursed monkey's paw finger curls inward*
Who knows, maybe we're going to get a solid Alien film at some point, taking place in another time line. But even if we get a last prequel, I suspect that it will be a soft reboot of Covenant just like the aforementioned flick was to Prometheus.
The franchise will eventually be rebooted.
MARK MY WORDS.
Get Pat Boivin to say it's not going to happen and if it does it won't be good, then in two days it'll be announced and it'll be good.
Quote from: Kimarhi on May 26, 2019, 06:37:33 AM
The franchise will eventually be rebooted.
MARK MY WORDS.
With all teen actors!
Oh yeah, I can honestly see that unfortunately.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 26, 2019, 12:00:07 PM
Quote from: Kimarhi on May 26, 2019, 06:37:33 AM
The franchise will eventually be rebooted.
MARK MY WORDS.
With all teen actors!
Oh yeah, I can honestly see that unfortunately.
Are you trying to give me a stroke?
(https://media.tenor.com/images/1ec6272e6ee419dd694e9ee9f25e1808/tenor.gif)
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 26, 2019, 12:00:07 PM
With all teen actors!
Oh yeah, I can honestly see that unfortunately.
Would infected children/teenagers result in smaller xenos?
Surely not.
Quote from: FenGiddel on May 26, 2019, 08:35:08 PM
Surely not.
Why not?
The size of the xeno is related to the size of the host. So a smaller host should result in a smaller xeno.
Except it obviously doesn't.
The distinct lack of child-sized Aliens in Aliens says no.
And even if there was a link, they'd be genetic, which would mean it would be based on the adult size anyway.
And the one what came from Spike.
I cannot wait for the sequel, i hope disney does not ruin everything as it often does.
Yeah Star Wars and Marvel have been doing dreadfully...
Quote from: SM on May 26, 2019, 11:22:46 PM
Except it obviously doesn't.
Why obvious?
In the Alien: Engineer script and concept art there's the ultramorph, a big xeno. Because the host was an Engineer who were bigger in that script than in the movie.
Quote from: SiL on May 26, 2019, 11:23:41 PM
The distinct lack of child-sized Aliens in Aliens says no.
And even if there was a link, they'd be genetic, which would mean it would be based on the adult size anyway.
We didn't get to see every xeno in its full glory.
And I can't remember how many children there were in the colony.
Quote from: SM on May 26, 2019, 11:25:35 PM
And the one what came from Spike.
Doesn't the same xeno come from a cow in another cut? Which would account for its size.
So why wasn't it bigger then if it came from an ox?
Quote from: Kimarhi on May 26, 2019, 06:37:33 AM
The franchise will eventually be rebooted.
MARK MY WORDS.
That's what I think is the most likely outcome with Disney in control but we'll see.
Quote from: SM on May 26, 2019, 11:45:08 PM
Yeah Star Wars and Marvel have been doing dreadfully...
Marvel, sure. Star Wars? ehhh
Quote from: Xiggz456 on May 27, 2019, 12:03:39 AM
Quote from: Kimarhi on May 26, 2019, 06:37:33 AM
The franchise will eventually be rebooted.
MARK MY WORDS.
That's what I think is the most likely outcome with Disney in control but we'll see.
I think so too. And they'll probably want to go with movies more in the style of
Aliens. I'm guessing here, but I get the feeling Ridley knows this and is trying to convince them to be more original.
Quote from: PsyKore on May 27, 2019, 12:12:26 AM
Quote from: Xiggz456 on May 27, 2019, 12:03:39 AM
Quote from: Kimarhi on May 26, 2019, 06:37:33 AM
The franchise will eventually be rebooted.
MARK MY WORDS.
That's what I think is the most likely outcome with Disney in control but we'll see.
I think so too. And they'll probably want to go with movies more in the style of Aliens. I'm guessing here, but I get the feeling Ridley knows this and is trying to convince them to be more original.
Was Prometheus and Alien Covenant original?
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 26, 2019, 11:02:31 PM
Quote from: FenGiddel on May 26, 2019, 08:35:08 PM
Surely not.
Why not?
The size of the xeno is related to the size of the host. So a smaller host should result in a smaller xeno.
The one that came out of the kid in AVPR looked normal.
Quote from: SM on May 27, 2019, 12:01:16 AM
So why wasn't it bigger then if it came from an ox?
Maybe it was a small ox, I dunnow :laugh:
Or there's something different about bovine animals.
I don't care either way, I'm just wondering...
Small host = less food for the embryo. So a smaller chestburster and smaller xeno later on seem plausible to me.
Here's to hoping we see David doing some experiments on kids in the possible sequel!
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 27, 2019, 01:42:15 AM
Quote from: SM on May 27, 2019, 12:01:16 AM
So why wasn't it bigger then if it came from an ox?
Maybe it was a small ox, I dunnow :laugh:
Or there's something different about bovine animals.
I don't care either way, I'm just wondering...
Small host = less food for the embryo. So a smaller chestburster and smaller xeno later on seem plausible to me.
Here's to hoping we see David doing some experiments on kids in the possible sequel!
Some will have a case of the vapors if that happens. Though it would be wickedly interesting to watch David pull a Menegele/Japan's Unit 731 on screen.
Yeah 'cos graphically killing children and pregnant women in AVP:R was immensely popular.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 27, 2019, 12:40:29 AM
Quote from: PsyKore on May 27, 2019, 12:12:26 AM
Quote from: Xiggz456 on May 27, 2019, 12:03:39 AM
Quote from: Kimarhi on May 26, 2019, 06:37:33 AM
The franchise will eventually be rebooted.
MARK MY WORDS.
That's what I think is the most likely outcome with Disney in control but we'll see.
I think so too. And they'll probably want to go with movies more in the style of Aliens. I'm guessing here, but I get the feeling Ridley knows this and is trying to convince them to be more original.
Was Prometheus and Alien Covenant original?
Well, they went in their own direction and expanded on a lot. People that liked the films would probably say yes, but I'm sure people that hated them will say they're not. But it's irrelevant with whatever Disney want to do next.
There's nothing new under the sun, to a degree.
Quote from: SM on May 27, 2019, 03:21:35 AM
Yeah 'cos graphically killing children and pregnant women in AVP:R was immensely popular.
That wasn't the problem with that movie.
I've seen people on other forums actually
defend those aspects of AvPR, precisely because they were so bold and dialed up the shock value. I've seen AvPR described as basically an exploitation movie, executed poorly.
Quote from: 0321recon on May 27, 2019, 03:12:50 AM
Some will have a case of the vapors if that happens. Though it would be wickedly interesting to watch David pull a Menegele/Japan's Unit 731 on screen.
Doesn't have to be that explicit. Maybe some remains or drawings of experiments he did.
Just to show that nothing's off limit for David.
Quote from: SM on May 27, 2019, 03:21:35 AM
Yeah 'cos graphically killing children and pregnant women in AVP:R was immensely popular.
I remember a lot of complaints about that movie but haven't heard anything about that.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 26, 2019, 11:02:31 PM
Quote from: FenGiddel on May 26, 2019, 08:35:08 PM
Surely not.
Why not?
The size of the xeno is related to the size of the host. So a smaller host should result in a smaller xeno.
Oh, I get what you're saying. I guess I'm thinking the alien takes on the form of its host and would grow to adulthood likewise according to that form and not get stuck in an immature form through some alien arrested development. So I guess it could be a "child", for a short time before maturing into the "Big Chap" version.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 27, 2019, 03:44:38 PM
Quote from: 0321recon on May 27, 2019, 03:12:50 AM
Some will have a case of the vapors if that happens. Though it would be wickedly interesting to watch David pull a Menegele/Japan's Unit 731 on screen.
Doesn't have to be that explicit. Maybe some remains or drawings of experiments he did.
Just to show that nothing's off limit for David.
For shock value, I'd have some remains since having the drawings would mute the impact of what he's capable of doing. Just like in Covenant, had David just buried Shaw after he had finished with her, and kept the drawings. It would not have the impact it did when we saw her vivisected corpse. To this day, I have that burned image of Dr. Shaw in the operating table. That's what Scott should aim for.
Quote from: SM on May 27, 2019, 03:21:35 AM
Yeah 'cos graphically killing children and pregnant women in AVP:R was immensely popular.
I remember a lot of complaints about that movie but haven't heard anything about that.
[/quote]
I've heard complaints though the main issue with AVPr it was how half-haphazardly it was executed.
Quote from: FenGiddel on May 27, 2019, 04:12:46 PM
Oh, I get what you're saying. I guess I'm thinking the alien takes on the form of its host and would grow to adulthood likewise according to that form and not get stuck in an immature form through some alien arrested development. So I guess it could be a "child", for a short time before maturing into the "Big Chap" version.
I wouldn't say the xeno got stuck in an immature form. I'm not going by the age of the host but the size.
Small host, smaller chestburster, smaller xeno. That's how I look at it.
Quote from: 0321recon on May 27, 2019, 04:34:40 PM
For shock value, I'd have some remains since having the drawings would mute the impact of what he's capable of doing. Just like in Covenant, had David just buried Shaw after he had finished with her, and kept the drawings. It would not have the impact it did when we saw her vivisected corpse. To this day, I have that burned image of Dr. Shaw in the operating table. That's what Scott should aim for.
For me it could be something as simple as skeletal remains.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 26, 2019, 11:52:35 PM
We didn't get to see every xeno in its full glory.
And I can't remember how many children there were in the colony.
Haha. The aliens did look shorter than the one in ALIEN. Maybe one can use that as headcanon to their height.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 26, 2019, 11:52:35 PM
Doesn't the same xeno come from a cow in another cut? Which would account for its size.
It is said in the novelization it was bigger than the others. But in the movie the size doesn't seem much different.
Quote from: Voodoo Magic on May 27, 2019, 12:40:29 AM
Was Prometheus and Alien Covenant original?
Heck Prometheus even copied stuff from AVP.
Quote from: Huggs on May 27, 2019, 12:58:29 AM
The one that came out of the kid in AVPR looked normal.
The ones in AVPR were kind of short.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 27, 2019, 03:44:38 PM
I remember a lot of complaints about that movie but haven't heard anything about that.
I heard it offended people.
Are you guys talking about the egg-barfing?
No.
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 28, 2019, 03:37:04 AM
Heck Prometheus even copied stuff from AVP.
Just to be fair, that's not
entirely true. Both Prometheus and AVP used discarded concepts from the early Alien scripts.
AVP just did it first. And Prometheus copied a line almost verbatim, so I guess you're right on that one.
So, basically Prometheus and AVP copied from the same source.
You know what? I retract my earlier statement. They're the same damn movie...
Quote from: Stitch on May 28, 2019, 02:48:01 PM
You know what? I retract my earlier statement. They're the same damn movie...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6B-nFTTkjg
For someone who hates AVP Ridley sure didn't mind ripping it off. Heck he probably never saw the damned thing. Didn't even realize he was just remaking what he hated. AVPGalaxy should bring it up and let him know on the next interview.
Quote from: Stitch on May 28, 2019, 02:48:01 PM
You know what? I retract my earlier statement. They're the same damn movie...
Not a bug but a feature.
Ridley rebuild AvP for Alien Universe. All plot tropes are used only to remove AvP from Alien canon.
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 28, 2019, 02:53:25 PM
For someone who hates AVP Ridley sure didn't mind ripping it off. Heck he probably never saw the damned thing. Didn't even realize he was just remaking what he hated. AVPGalaxy should bring it up and let him know on the next interview.
You want old man to have heart attack so we never get sequel to Covenant?
Quote from: Kradan on May 28, 2019, 04:05:01 PM
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 28, 2019, 02:53:25 PM
For someone who hates AVP Ridley sure didn't mind ripping it off. Heck he probably never saw the damned thing. Didn't even realize he was just remaking what he hated. AVPGalaxy should bring it up and let him know on the next interview.
You want old man to have heart attack so we never get sequel to Covenant?
"Sir Ridley Scoot I was suprised at the huge amount of similarities between Prometheus and AVP. Are you a fan of the AVP concept like us at AVPGalaxy? Was that like a homage to AVP? How thoughtful."
Ridley:
(https://jordanandeddie.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/ridley-scott.jpg)
Do it Hicks.
Quote from: Huggs on May 05, 2019, 12:53:27 AM
If we do not get a sequel to Covenant, how will you mentally connect the prequels with the original films?
I wont
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 28, 2019, 04:11:43 PM
Quote from: Kradan on May 28, 2019, 04:05:01 PM
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 28, 2019, 02:53:25 PM
For someone who hates AVP Ridley sure didn't mind ripping it off. Heck he probably never saw the damned thing. Didn't even realize he was just remaking what he hated. AVPGalaxy should bring it up and let him know on the next interview.
You want old man to have heart attack so we never get sequel to Covenant?
"Sir Ridley Scoot I was suprised at the huge amount of similarities between Prometheus and AVP. Are you a fan of the AVP concept like us at AVPGalaxy? Was that like a homage to AVP? How thoughtful."
Ridley:
https://jordanandeddie.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/ridley-scott.jpg
Do it Hicks.
:laugh:
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 28, 2019, 04:11:43 PM
Quote from: Kradan on May 28, 2019, 04:05:01 PM
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 28, 2019, 02:53:25 PM
For someone who hates AVP Ridley sure didn't mind ripping it off. Heck he probably never saw the damned thing. Didn't even realize he was just remaking what he hated. AVPGalaxy should bring it up and let him know on the next interview.
You want old man to have heart attack so we never get sequel to Covenant?
"Sir Ridley Scoot I was suprised at the huge amount of similarities between Prometheus and AVP. Are you a fan of the AVP concept like us at AVPGalaxy? Was that like a homage to AVP? How thoughtful."
Ridley:
https://jordanandeddie.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/ridley-scott.jpg
Do it Hicks.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi66.tinypic.com%2F2iuaiqb.jpg&hash=d4944904c8eeff031e6659d3093dc8b32f009aa2)
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 28, 2019, 03:37:04 AM
Heck Prometheus even copied stuff from AVP.
Quote from: Stitch on May 28, 2019, 08:36:42 AM
Just to be fair, that's not entirely true. Both Prometheus and AVP used discarded concepts from the early Alien scripts.
AVP just did it first. And Prometheus copied a line almost verbatim, so I guess you're right on that one.
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 28, 2019, 02:53:25 PM
For someone who hates AVP Ridley sure didn't mind ripping it off. Heck he probably never saw the damned thing. Didn't even realize he was just remaking what he hated.
H.P. Lovecraft's At The Mountains Of Madness, was a big inspiration for Dan O' Bannon's original Starbeast script that became Alien.
If there's things being ripped, it's mostly from Lovecraft's work.
Samhain13, slightly changed your quote just for fun:
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 28, 2019, 04:11:43 PM
"Sir Ridley Scoot I was suprised at the huge amount of similarities between Prometheus and AVP. Are you a fan of the AVP concept like us at AVPGalaxy? Was that like a homage to AVP? How thoughtful."
Ridley:
https://media1.tenor.com/images/6e130820688d560a4f491b9ed71d0f2f/tenor.gif?itemid=8630203
Do it Hicks.
I guess OP's question is answered, we will.
Now we wait.
Quote from: Huggs on May 05, 2019, 12:53:27 AM
Where would the films and your own head canon take you, if you were left to bridge the gap on your own?
I'm not a fan of "David made 'em". Seems too neat and tidy. It explains the universe, instead of leaving it mysterious and abyssal. I preferred the threat be that the alien creature might get back to Earth; adding the Engineer threat short-circuits that for me.
Quote from: FenGiddel on May 29, 2019, 12:10:18 AM
Quote from: Huggs on May 05, 2019, 12:53:27 AM
Where would the films and your own head canon take you, if you were left to bridge the gap on your own?
I'm not a fan of "David made 'em". Seems too neat and tidy. It explains the universe, instead of leaving it mysterious and abyssal. I preferred the threat be that the alien creature might get back to Earth; adding the Engineer threat short-circuits that for me.
"An android makes a horrific monster" is a good idea and thematically interesting.... just not in an Alien movie.
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 25, 2019, 04:29:52 PM
Quote from: The Old One on May 25, 2019, 04:18:08 AM
Of course you would say that though.
It supports your POV.
You think I'm lying? ???
Because I genuinely have seen that in discussions on other forums, quite a bit.
Just to go back to this, for
The Old One's sake, here's a link where 8 different people over the span of like 2 pages reach the conclusion that David didn't invent the Alien: link (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3728298&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=378#post495449014)
That's just from
today. :P
I am not trying to start a canon debate, holy shit. Just demonstrating that yes, I do see people on other forums reach that conclusion frequently. :)
Quote from: FenGiddel on May 29, 2019, 12:10:18 AM
I'm not a fan of "David made 'em". Seems too neat and tidy. It explains the universe, instead of leaving it mysterious and abyssal. I preferred the threat be that the alien creature might get back to Earth; adding the Engineer threat short-circuits that for me.
I find it understandable that you and many others aren't a fan of "David made 'em". Personally, I would've preferred the Engineers but overal I don't mind.
Either someone created them, or they're a product of alien nature. I think I prefer them to be a creation. If they're some kind of animal like a regular insect, it would mean they're just one of many insects (animals) in whatever eco system.
The threat that the alien creature might get back to Earth isn't gone. It just is for now.
I read something from can't remember who, who said the idea isn't that interesting. And I agree.
Either the aliens win or the humans. And if the humans win, there might be some egg left and then the next movie is just more of the same.
Better leave Earth intact so there's a steady supply of hosts to send into space ;)
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 01:35:36 AM
Quote from: FenGiddel on May 29, 2019, 12:10:18 AM
I'm not a fan of "David made 'em". Seems too neat and tidy. It explains the universe, instead of leaving it mysterious and abyssal. I preferred the threat be that the alien creature might get back to Earth; adding the Engineer threat short-circuits that for me.
I find it understandable that you and many others aren't a fan of "David made 'em". Personally, I would've preferred the Engineers but overal I don't mind.
Either someone created them, or they're a product of alien nature. I think I prefer them to be a creation. If they're some kind of animal like a regular insect, it would mean they're just one of many insects (animals) in whatever eco system.
The problem for me isn't that David made them, the problem is the recent timeframe, and that it radically narrows the scope of the Alien in the broader universe. "Someone/something made the Alien" isn't a problem if it, say, happened 10,000 years ago and there's ample time for Aliens to proliferate throughout the galaxy and lurk in the dark corners of unexplored space, waiting to be stumbled upon. Having David invent them 20 years before 'Alien' completely undoes that facet of Lovecraftian horror that was present in the first movie.
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 29, 2019, 01:15:26 AM
I am not trying to start a canon debate, holy shit. Just demonstrating that yes, I do see people on other forums reach that conclusion frequently. :)
Did someone say canon thre...? ;D
I also experienced the same with others:
Spoiler
Quote from: Samhain13 on Mar 21, 2019, 03:48:31 AM
The non-fans that watched the movie with me didn't think David was the creator of all Aliens. Because AVP movies and games. :P
Only some fans are aware of Fox's current stance on canon and Ridley's intentions through interviews. Back when Covenant was released some members here didn't even realized the implication of the movie.
The average moviegoer? They think David just made some aliens eggs, that's all. Heck once the subject of Alien came with some colleagues and one wondered if in the next movie Predators would try to hunt David for what he did on Covenant.
Good deal. ;)
I also like O'Bannon's idea, in this quote from wmmvrrvrrmm's site. (http://alienexplorations.blogspot.com/1979/09/dan-obannons-admiration-for-lovecraft.html)
One especially insightful critic- I wish I remembered who - wrote that Alien evoked the writings of H. P. Lovecraft, but where Lovecraft told of an ancient race of hideous beings menacing the Earth, ALIEN went to where the Old Ones lived, to their very world of origin. He was right, that was my very thought while writing. That baneful little storm-lashed planetoid planetoid halfway across the galaxy was a fragment of the Old Ones' homeworld, and the Alien a blood relative of the Yog-Sothoth. (Something Perfectly Disgusting (essay found in the Alien Quadrilogy set))
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 29, 2019, 01:43:32 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 29, 2019, 01:15:26 AM
I am not trying to start a canon debate, holy shit. Just demonstrating that yes, I do see people on other forums reach that conclusion frequently. :)
Did someone say canon thre...? ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/i9vQV62.gif)
Quote from: FenGiddel on May 29, 2019, 02:03:01 AM
Good deal. ;)
I also like O'Bannon's idea, in this quote from wmmvrrvrrmm's site. (http://alienexplorations.blogspot.com/1979/09/dan-obannons-admiration-for-lovecraft.html)
One especially insightful critic- I wish I remembered who - wrote that Alien evoked the writings of H. P. Lovecraft, but where Lovecraft told of an ancient race of hideous beings menacing the Earth, ALIEN went to where the Old Ones lived, to their very world of origin. He was right, that was my very thought while writing. That baneful little storm-lashed planetoid planetoid halfway across the galaxy was a fragment of the Old Ones' homeworld, and the Alien a blood relative of the Yog-Sothoth. (Something Perfectly Disgusting (essay found in the Alien Quadrilogy set))
I think if we are Lovecraftian it will be a Lovecraftian world :)
(https://i.imgur.com/zExFr5c.jpg)
Quote from: FenGiddel on May 29, 2019, 02:03:01 AM
Good deal. ;)
I also like O'Bannon's idea, in this quote from wmmvrrvrrmm's site. (http://alienexplorations.blogspot.com/1979/09/dan-obannons-admiration-for-lovecraft.html)
One especially insightful critic- I wish I remembered who - wrote that Alien evoked the writings of H. P. Lovecraft, but where Lovecraft told of an ancient race of hideous beings menacing the Earth, ALIEN went to where the Old Ones lived, to their very world of origin. He was right, that was my very thought while writing. That baneful little storm-lashed planetoid planetoid halfway across the galaxy was a fragment of the Old Ones' homeworld, and the Alien a blood relative of the Yog-Sothoth. (Something Perfectly Disgusting (essay found in the Alien Quadrilogy set))
True.
But in his mind, or at least in his script, the alien was a different creature. Capable of language, writing and architecture.
A being like that is more Lovecraftian than the space bug which Cameron turned it into.
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 29, 2019, 01:41:27 AM
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 01:35:36 AM
Quote from: FenGiddel on May 29, 2019, 12:10:18 AM
I'm not a fan of "David made 'em". Seems too neat and tidy. It explains the universe, instead of leaving it mysterious and abyssal. I preferred the threat be that the alien creature might get back to Earth; adding the Engineer threat short-circuits that for me.
I find it understandable that you and many others aren't a fan of "David made 'em". Personally, I would've preferred the Engineers but overal I don't mind.
Either someone created them, or they're a product of alien nature. I think I prefer them to be a creation. If they're some kind of animal like a regular insect, it would mean they're just one of many insects (animals) in whatever eco system.
The problem for me isn't that David made them, the problem is the recent timeframe, and that it radically narrows the scope of the Alien in the broader universe. "Someone/something made the Alien" isn't a problem if it, say, happened 10,000 years ago and there's ample time for Aliens to proliferate throughout the galaxy and lurk in the dark corners of unexplored space, waiting to be stumbled upon. Having David invent them 20 years before 'Alien' completely undoes that facet of Lovecraftian horror that was present in the first movie.
I still like to think whoever/whatever the space jockey is, he died of a black goo attack, which makes him
appear fossilized.
That could work too.
Quote from: David's Creation on May 29, 2019, 03:00:05 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 29, 2019, 01:41:27 AM
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 01:35:36 AM
Quote from: FenGiddel on May 29, 2019, 12:10:18 AM
I'm not a fan of "David made 'em". Seems too neat and tidy. It explains the universe, instead of leaving it mysterious and abyssal. I preferred the threat be that the alien creature might get back to Earth; adding the Engineer threat short-circuits that for me.
I find it understandable that you and many others aren't a fan of "David made 'em". Personally, I would've preferred the Engineers but overal I don't mind.
Either someone created them, or they're a product of alien nature. I think I prefer them to be a creation. If they're some kind of animal like a regular insect, it would mean they're just one of many insects (animals) in whatever eco system.
The problem for me isn't that David made them, the problem is the recent timeframe, and that it radically narrows the scope of the Alien in the broader universe. "Someone/something made the Alien" isn't a problem if it, say, happened 10,000 years ago and there's ample time for Aliens to proliferate throughout the galaxy and lurk in the dark corners of unexplored space, waiting to be stumbled upon. Having David invent them 20 years before 'Alien' completely undoes that facet of Lovecraftian horror that was present in the first movie.
I still like to think whoever/whatever the space jockey is, he died of a black goo attack, which makes him appear fossilized.
You at least acknowledge that that's a colossal retcon, though, right? Like, prior to the prequels, did you think the Derelict was only 20 years old?
20? You are being generous. Who knows how long David have been playing around on Origae-6? Ridley could set the next movie on 2122 if he feels like it. Heck have it crash hours before the Nostromo arrives. Don't underestimate Retcon Ridley.
QuoteWho knows how long David have been playing around on Planet 4?
Ten years.
My bad, meant Origae-6.
Quote from: SM on May 29, 2019, 04:17:00 AM
QuoteWho knows how long David have been playing around on Planet 4?
Ten years.
"Give or take a day or two"
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/94/d9/f5/94d9f5a926f795269882cfb8a606bd04--ray-wise-jeepers-creepers.jpg)
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 29, 2019, 04:01:37 AM
You at least acknowledge that that's a colossal retcon, though, right? Like, prior to the prequels, did you think the Derelict was only 20 years old?
No, we all
assumed it was older, and the only confirmation we got from the film was the brief visual assessment of a space trucker.
I don't really see it as a retcon since the age of the ship was never blatantly expressed.
Also, I'm sorry, but the idea of the space jockey beacon being able to stay powered and broadcast a continuous warning for thousands of years bugs me more than the idea that Dallas was mistaken about the age of an alien corpse.
Quote from: David's Creation on May 29, 2019, 04:32:46 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 29, 2019, 04:01:37 AM
You at least acknowledge that that's a colossal retcon, though, right? Like, prior to the prequels, did you think the Derelict was only 20 years old?
No, we all assumed it was older, and the only confirmation we got from the film was the brief visual assessment of a space trucker.
We assumed it was older because that was the intent, and the movie expressed that by having it look old and having Dallas comment more than once that it looked old. The conclusion you were meant to draw was that it was old. Prior to 'Alien Covenant', no one, not even you, thought the Derelict was a recent entity.
Quote from: David's Creation on May 29, 2019, 04:32:46 AM
I don't really see it as a retcon since the age of the ship was never blatantly expressed.
The age of the ship was blatantly expressed by it looking old, and by characters commenting on how old it looked. At no point did any of the filmmakers in 1979 intend for you to draw any conclusion other than "the Derelict is old", and used multiple methods of storytelling shorthand to convey that.
That's what makes it a retcon. :)
Quote from: David's Creation on May 29, 2019, 04:32:46 AM
Also, I'm sorry, but the idea of the space jockey beacon being able to stay powered and broadcast a continuous warning for thousands of years bugs me more than the idea that Dallas was mistaken about the age of an alien corpse.
Why? It's alien technology. It's meant to be weird and beyond the limits of human technology.
I mean, shit, you could take your cell phone back in time to the 1700s, and you'd have people saying, "I'm sorry, but the idea that this small handheld device can not only do mathematical equations, but also has an illumination feature, can record and display the written word, and capture perfectly replicated images of anything it sees... why I'm afraid it all seems quite ludicrous!"
And that's human technology. With fictional alien tech? Who knows what it can do.
Again, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be saying any of this if 'Alien Covenant' hadn't called the Derelict's age into question. Like yeah hindsight is 20/20 and you can make stuff fit, but not acknowledging that things have been retconned is some serious "the emperor has no clothes" shit. :P
QuoteNo, we all assumed it was older, and the only confirmation we got from the film was the brief visual assessment of a space trucker.
Indeed.
Quote from: SM on May 29, 2019, 05:29:06 AM
QuoteNo, we all assumed it was older, and the only confirmation we got from the film was the brief visual assessment of a space trucker.
Indeed.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/a4697e6b37c784b8c12f2cc7db9ad6e1/tenor.gif?itemid=8654562)
Dallas was speaking for the storyteller. They wanted the audience to believe it was very old, so they had a character point it out.
Remember janek and his impromptu speech about the engineer base and the goo weapon? It happens all the time in film. It's just framing stuff for the audience.
Dallas' credentials were solid. He was speaking for the director, writers, and artists who made the film. It was supposed to be old, and larger than any human or engineer. But filmmakers make new movies and want to shoehorn in New stuff. The best way to assist making new theories seem plausible is to say, "ah, well he was just a trucker".
Even if you have to get that specific, it doesn't take a degree in archeology to recognize old bones.
Quoteit doesn't take a degree in archeology to recognize old bones.
Actually kind of does.
Besides which, he wasn't looking at bones.
Quote from: SiL on May 29, 2019, 06:56:56 AM
Quoteit doesn't take a degree in archeology to recognize old bones.
Actually kind of does.
Besides which, he wasn't looking at bones.
Fossilized remains
Though he does say '...bones are bent outward, like it exploded from inside.'
Because that's what it looked like to him.
That's what it looks like to everybody
My issue is with David being the 'supposed' creator, it makes the Universe seem smaller. I don't like that. That's why I pretend Covenant doesn't exist
Quote from: LastSonofKrypton on May 29, 2019, 08:34:39 AM
That's what it looks like to everybody
My issue is with David being the 'supposed' creator, it makes the Universe seem smaller. I don't like that. That's why I pretend Covenant doesn't exist
Covenant exist.
David as creator exist.
Derelict separately exist.
I like to look atBlack Goo like on a Black Marker from Dead Space. Every time someone tries to create something with Black Goo, in the end Alien will appear. Engineers get it, David get it.
The universe shrank when the lonely dead being on the lonely dead moon in the middle of space was actually a member of a race of beings which made and interacted with mankind that was alive some 30 years earlier.
Quote from: SiL on May 29, 2019, 08:55:11 AM
The universe shrank when the lonely dead being on the lonely dead moon in the middle of space was actually a member of a race of beings which made and interacted with mankind that was alive some 30 years earlier.
You are absolutely right
All the different stages of the Alien is covered in human-looking sex organs. In hindsight, it makes sense there was some human influence right from the beginning. I know the universe feels smaller, but I like the "full circle" aspect of it, personally.
It makes sense, but I still don't like it.
But all animals here on Earth have similar sex organs, so I wouldn't necessarily say it indicates a specifically human influence.
Quote from: SiL on May 29, 2019, 08:55:11 AM
The universe shrank when the lonely dead being on the lonely dead moon in the middle of space was actually a member of a race of beings which made and interacted with mankind that was alive some 30 years earlier.
Exactly. Prometheus started a trend that Covenant continued (and amplified, in my opinion).
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 01:35:36 AM
Quote from: FenGiddel on May 29, 2019, 12:10:18 AM
I'm not a fan of "David made 'em". Seems too neat and tidy. It explains the universe, instead of leaving it mysterious and abyssal. I preferred the threat be that the alien creature might get back to Earth; adding the Engineer threat short-circuits that for me.
I find it understandable that you and many others aren't a fan of "David made 'em". Personally, I would've preferred the Engineers but overal I don't mind.
Either someone created them, or they're a product of alien nature. I think I prefer them to be a creation. If they're some kind of animal like a regular insect, it would mean they're just one of many insects (animals) in whatever eco system.
Damn, am i the only one who have seen rumour about David being creator of Alien on Scified when Covenant was only to come out and thought "Oh, that's really interesting. I would never think about this." If it is not clear already i like (and liked it from the beginning) idea of David responsible for creating xeno just for the sake of how unxpected this twist of existing knowledge was for me.
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 29, 2019, 01:41:27 AM
The problem for me isn't that David made them, the problem is the recent timeframe, and that it radically narrows the scope of the Alien in the broader universe. "Someone/something made the Alien" isn't a problem if it, say, happened 10,000 years ago and there's ample time for Aliens to proliferate throughout the galaxy and lurk in the dark corners of unexplored space, waiting to be stumbled upon. Having David invent them 20 years before 'Alien' completely undoes that facet of Lovecraftian horror that was present in the first movie.
So because it's not old enough, it's not Lovecraftian?
And you're not happy because there probably aren't more aliens/eggs spread around?
Eggs that would only result in the xeno when encountered by humans. Because if they're found by another species, it would result in something we haven't seen before. Similar to what black goo does. And that's still out there.
Point being that without the typical eggs, there will still be things waiting to be stumbled upon.
I think of it this way, who knows what other
unknown horrors are lurking in the dark corners of unexplored space?
Quote from: SiL on May 29, 2019, 08:55:11 AM
The universe shrank when the lonely dead being on the lonely dead moon in the middle of space was actually a member of a race of beings which made and interacted with mankind that was alive some 30 years earlier.
As opposed to what? A more abstract race of alien beings? Or a single specimen custom made by others?
The lonely dead being had a ship. Meaning said being is probably part of a larger society with it's own technology.
How does them visiting and interacting with mankind shrink the universe?
For me it's the opposite. It adds to the universe. Who knows how many other planets they seeded, visited or build stuff on?
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 06:14:28 PM
Eggs that would only result in the xeno when encountered by humans. Because if they're found by another species, it would result in something we haven't seen before.
Alien 3 would beg to differ. As would AVP, non canonically.
Quote from: Stitch on May 29, 2019, 06:20:14 PM
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 06:14:28 PM
Eggs that would only result in the xeno when encountered by humans. Because if they're found by another species, it would result in something we haven't seen before.
Alien 3 would beg to differ. As would AVP, non canonically.
By xeno I mean the original from part 1.
Didn't the ones in 3 look different? Something we hadn't seen before until then?
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 06:14:28 PM
I think of it this way, who knows what other unknown horrors are lurking in the dark corners of unexplored space?
Not only unknown, but completely
unknowable.
Xeno is still scary and dangerous, but not unknowable. We know - it is a just David's experiment. I like the idea, but it would be more mysterious, if David said something like this: "
I don't know how, but the Pathogen prompted me - what form it wants to take".
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 06:14:28 PM
How does them visiting and interacting with mankind shrink the universe?
For me it's the opposite. It adds to the universe. Who knows how many other planets they seeded, visited or build stuff on?
How does saying "the lonely dead alien in the middle of space was literally just a man in a suit"
expand the universe?
The derelict and jockey was a glimpse that the universe was large and full of strange beings, long dead, or at least dormant. It showed that space was inhabited by truly alien organisms.
Prometheus said no, they're actually just other humans, and they made us, and were actually planning on killing us just last week. Likewise the Alien was a science experiment thought up the other day, this time by a robot human.
Basically the prequels have just made all of space the soap opera of the human race and its relatives. The human race is now intimately linked with every alien species in the series. There are no distant horrors. It's just us.
Tl; Dr In
Alien mankind stumbles across the vast unknown of things beyond our experiences. In the prequels mankind stumbled upon the fact humans are actually super special and everything is all about us always.
And that's the true horror!
Spoiler
That Ridley Scott thought that was a good idea.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 06:34:43 PM
Quote from: Stitch on May 29, 2019, 06:20:14 PM
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 06:14:28 PM
Eggs that would only result in the xeno when encountered by humans. Because if they're found by another species, it would result in something we haven't seen before.
Alien 3 would beg to differ. As would AVP, non canonically.
By xeno I mean the original from part 1.
Didn't the ones in 3 look different? Something we hadn't seen before until then?
Well, yes, they looked different, but not as different as a human does to a dog or ox, or even a predator.
Regardless of what type of creature is impregnated by a facehugger, evidence suggests the result is an alien which will look similar to all its other brethren.
Quote from: SM on May 29, 2019, 08:26:00 AM
Because that's what it looked like to him.
Yep. Round that time, ya think he had thoughts of being back in the shuttle, cranking WAM classics on the stereo?
Dunno. I think Dallas would be more into The Human League.
Quote from: SiL on May 29, 2019, 10:13:12 PM
The derelict and jockey was a glimpse that the universe was large and full of strange beings, long dead, or at least dormant. It showed that space was inhabited by truly alien organisms.
Prometheus said no, they're actually just other humans, and they made us, and were actually planning on killing us just last week. Likewise the Alien was a science experiment thought up the other day, this time by a robot human.
Basically the prequels have just made all of space the soap opera of the human race and its relatives. The human race is now intimately linked with every alien species in the series. There are no distant horrors. It's just us.
Tl; Dr In Alien mankind stumbles across the vast unknown of things beyond our experiences. In the prequels mankind stumbled upon the fact humans are actually super special and everything is all about us always.
Because one alien being turned out to be humanoid, those strange things suddenly don't exist anymore?
The prequels may be about humans, but it also shows little we mean. And that I like.
I get your point of view. In a way, I even share it. But for whatever reason it doesn't bother me. I still can enjoy Alien as much as before.
Quote from: Stitch on May 29, 2019, 10:42:00 PM
Well, yes, they looked different, but not as different as a human does to a dog or ox, or even a predator.
Regardless of what type of creature is impregnated by a facehugger, evidence suggests the result is an alien which will look similar to all its other brethren.
I apologise, I should've been clearer in my earlier post. Let me try again.
So far we've only seen the alien spawn from mammals, that includes humans and Engineers. So those all look similar.
Now what if some weird ass space creature got infected? Something looking like this? Behold the dumbo octopus ;D
I assume that would less similar.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/bwdLK29H1NQ7m/giphy.gif)
Quote from: SM on May 29, 2019, 11:39:37 PM
Dunno. I think Dallas would be more into The Human League.
:o
Eine kleine (Don't You Want Me) Nachtmusik ? ;D
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 06:14:28 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 29, 2019, 01:41:27 AM
The problem for me isn't that David made them, the problem is the recent timeframe, and that it radically narrows the scope of the Alien in the broader universe. "Someone/something made the Alien" isn't a problem if it, say, happened 10,000 years ago and there's ample time for Aliens to proliferate throughout the galaxy and lurk in the dark corners of unexplored space, waiting to be stumbled upon. Having David invent them 20 years before 'Alien' completely undoes that facet of Lovecraftian horror that was present in the first movie.
So because it's not old enough, it's not Lovecraftian?
Y-yes? See Dan O'Bannon's quote that was posted upthread, about the Alien being analogous to untold ancient space horrors beyond human understanding. Turning it into a 20-year-old science experiment by an angry robot completely undoes that.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 06:14:28 PM
And you're not happy because there probably aren't more aliens/eggs spread around?
Eggs that would only result in the xeno when encountered by humans. Because if they're found by another species, it would result in something we haven't seen before. Similar to what black goo does. And that's still out there.
Point being that without the typical eggs, there will still be things waiting to be stumbled upon.
We know that Alien eggs make more Aliens regardless of what they facehug, even if they look a little different. And yeah, reducing a potentially unknowable scourge waiting in the dark corners of space to "however many eggs David chose to make" completely undoes that.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 06:14:28 PM
I think of it this way, who knows what other unknown horrors are lurking in the dark corners of unexplored space?
Not good enough.
You know why I watch the Alien movies and enjoy Aliens media and stuff?
It's for the Aliens.
I don't care about the other weird horrors out there, especially if their existence comes at the cost of the Aliens I like. If those other creatures and horrors are so interesting, perhaps they should have their own series where they can be weird and scary rather than f**king with one I enjoy?
Like, I've seen this argument before and it always strikes me as profoundly tone-deaf. So if you had a pet dog that you've grown up with and love dearly for its own qualities, and then I showed up and kicked it until it was crippled and mentally traumatized, you'd be okay with that so long as I handed you another puppy when I was done?
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 30, 2019, 01:49:45 AM
Y-yes? See Dan O'Bannon's quote that was posted upthread, about the Alien being analogous to untold ancient space horrors beyond human understanding. Turning it into a 20-year-old science experiment by an angry robot completely undoes that.
To which I replied
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 02:55:49 AM
True.
But in his mind, or at least in his script, the alien was a different creature. Capable of language, writing and architecture.
A being like that is more Lovecraftian than the space bug which Cameron turned it into.
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 30, 2019, 01:49:45 AM
We know that Alien eggs make more Aliens regardless of what they facehug, even if they look a little different. And yeah, reducing a potentially unknowable scourge waiting in the dark corners of space to "however many eggs David chose to make" completely undoes that.
How do you know? We have never seen it.
We saw mammalian beings with 4 legs (I include humans, they just walk on two) spawing a xeno that are somewhat similar to their host.
Who says it wouldn't be different with totally different kind of beings?
You like the xeno (or xenos) which is your right, but you'd only get them if humanoids/mammals encounter the eggs.
I'm just wondering, would you be ok with aliens that don't look a lot like the typical xeno? And perhaps act differently.
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 30, 2019, 01:49:45 AM
Not good enough.
You know why I watch the Alien movies and enjoy Aliens media and stuff?
It's for the Aliens.
I don't care about the other weird horrors out there, especially if their existence comes at the cost of the Aliens I like. If those other creatures and horrors are so interesting, perhaps they should have their own series where they can be weird and scary rather than f**king with one I enjoy?
As mentioned before, I only care about the original.
And I agree, it should've been separated. Like the prequels who weren't supposed to be prequels, but we all know how that turned out.
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 30, 2019, 01:49:45 AM
Like, I've seen this argument before and it always strikes me as profoundly tone-deaf. So if you had a pet dog that you've grown up with and love dearly for its own qualities, and then I showed up and kicked it until it was crippled and mentally traumatized, you'd be okay with that so long as I handed you another puppy when I was done?
The abuse the dog experienced took place before it was your dog. By your logic you would love your dog less once you found out things happened to it in the past.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 30, 2019, 12:18:36 AM
Because one alien being turned out to be humanoid, those strange things suddenly don't exist anymore?
Because the only aliens in the franchise turned out to be directly related to humans. Other strange things don't exist any more because they aren't shown in the movies.
QuoteThe prequels may be about humans, but it also shows little we mean. And that I like.
It doesn't show how little we mean. We were important enough for the Engineers to want to whipe us out. We indirectly created the Alien. In the scope of the franchise, that's hugely important.
Quote from: SiL on May 30, 2019, 03:30:03 AMOther strange things don't exist any more because they aren't shown in the movies.
That's one way to look at it. I'd like to think there's (a whole lot) more because space is infinite.
Quote from: SiL on May 30, 2019, 03:30:03 AMIt doesn't show how little we mean. We were important enough for the Engineers to want to whipe us out. We indirectly created the Alien. In the scope of the franchise, that's hugely important.
An important problem, yes.
Not something important or special enough to keep around. More like a virus.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 30, 2019, 02:52:25 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 30, 2019, 01:49:45 AM
Y-yes? See Dan O'Bannon's quote that was posted upthread, about the Alien being analogous to untold ancient space horrors beyond human understanding. Turning it into a 20-year-old science experiment by an angry robot completely undoes that.
To which I replied
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 02:55:49 AM
True.
But in his mind, or at least in his script, the alien was a different creature. Capable of language, writing and architecture.
A being like that is more Lovecraftian than the space bug which Cameron turned it into.
Just because Cameron did something doesn't mean it's okay for Ridley Scott to double down on the problem with his movies. :)
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 30, 2019, 02:52:25 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 30, 2019, 01:49:45 AM
We know that Alien eggs make more Aliens regardless of what they facehug, even if they look a little different. And yeah, reducing a potentially unknowable scourge waiting in the dark corners of space to "however many eggs David chose to make" completely undoes that.
How do you know? We have never seen it.
We saw mammalian beings with 4 legs (I include humans, they just walk on two) spawing a xeno that are somewhat similar to their host.
Who says it wouldn't be different with totally different kind of beings?
We don't know, that would be up to potential filmmakers or storytellers. It's a fictional creature, after all.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 30, 2019, 02:52:25 AM
You like the xeno (or xenos) which is your right, but you'd only get them if humanoids/mammals encounter the eggs.
I'm just wondering, would you be ok with aliens that don't look a lot like the typical xeno? And perhaps act differently.
I'll tackle that if and when we see it.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 30, 2019, 02:52:25 AM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 30, 2019, 01:49:45 AM
Like, I've seen this argument before and it always strikes me as profoundly tone-deaf. So if you had a pet dog that you've grown up with and love dearly for its own qualities, and then I showed up and kicked it until it was crippled and mentally traumatized, you'd be okay with that so long as I handed you another puppy when I was done?
The abuse the dog experienced took place before it was your dog. By your logic you would love your dog less once you found out things happened to it in the past.
N-no? It was my dog, and then Ridley Scott came and abused it, and then you're offering me a new puppy as a consolation prize.
If you're trying to compare things to Cameron and 'Aliens' again, that's some pretty hefty whataboutism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism).
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 30, 2019, 04:10:10 AM
Quote from: SiL on May 30, 2019, 03:30:03 AMOther strange things don't exist any more because they aren't shown in the movies.
That's one way to look at it. I'd like to think there's (a whole lot) more because space is infinite.
That seems like a really tenuous argument - by that logic, couldn't I say the Star Wars is full of unspeakable horrors since space is infinite?
I mean, I guess the movie 'The Fox and the Hound' is actually a horror movie, since it takes place on earth (which is a planet, which exists in space, which is infinite).
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 30, 2019, 04:10:10 AM
I'd like to think there's (a whole lot) more because space is infinite.
If it's not shown it's entirely irrelevant, though. Everything in the Alien universe, as it stands, is directly tied to humans. There's nothing to suggest otherwise any more.
QuoteAn important problem, yes.
Not something important or special enough to keep around. More like a virus.
Viruses aren't important now?
And that's still ignoring that the Engineers
are human.
The fact that David created the Xenomorph is very fitting for me. It's true that it shrinks the universe compared to the numbers of Xenos that could have been found in the galaxy, even in the universe. Personally I love the idea that a loop is looped, besides I already wrote a synopsis for a fifth film that would show the end of all Xenos, all Xeno DNA. Necessarily, I needed a start, and Covenant gave it to me. I find it much better than if the ship had been thousands of years old because after that it becomes too complicated and the saga never ends. I prefer to have a strong and recent foundation. And for those who are against this because the universe is getting smaller, think back to the speed of propagation of Xenos. There are always the eggs on Planet 4 that could have damaged if all gave birth to a colony of Xenos somewhere in the universe. It goes very fast and one can compare the speed of propagation of the Xenomorph with the age of the universe. At this scale, a few thousand years do not change anything at all.
The number of Aliens isn't the point in the least, and I can't think of anyone who's mentioned it at any point ???
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 30, 2019, 12:18:36 AM
So far we've only seen the alien spawn from mammals, that includes humans and Engineers. So those all look similar.
Now what if some weird ass space creature got infected?
Again, I know it's not canon, but aren't predators technically weird ass space creatures?
I suppose the pussyface can make them count as weird.
The Predators are anything but weird, they're all too familiar.
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 30, 2019, 04:23:00 AM
N-no? It was my dog, and then Ridley Scott came and abused it, and then you're offering me a new puppy as a consolation prize.
If you're trying to compare things to Cameron and 'Aliens' again, that's some pretty hefty whataboutism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism).
If you wanna stick with your dog analogy: Timelinewise, Ridley did it before it was your dog. Cameron did it afterwards.
That's not whataboutism, that's fact. You'd like your dog less because it turned out he had a different past.
But you got no problem that someone's else turned him into a bug the screeches like a bird.
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 30, 2019, 04:23:00 AM
That seems like a really tenuous argument - by that logic, couldn't I say the Star Wars is full of unspeakable horrors since space is infinite?
I mean, I guess the movie 'The Fox and the Hound' is actually a horror movie, since it takes place on earth (which is a planet, which exists in space, which is infinite).
Sure, if you're willing to switch genre, style, tone,... and movie.
Funny you mention "The Fox and the Hound". You got a thing with dogs?
Quote from: SiL on May 30, 2019, 04:24:23 AM
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 30, 2019, 04:10:10 AM
I'd like to think there's (a whole lot) more because space is infinite.
If it's not shown it's entirely irrelevant, though. Everything in the Alien universe, as it stands, is directly tied to humans. There's nothing to suggest otherwise any more.
We're tied to the Engineers. A race of space beings. That's good enough for me.
Quote from: SiL on May 30, 2019, 04:24:23 AM
Viruses aren't important now?
And that's still ignoring that the Engineers are human.
Not important enough to keep around. Catch my drift?
Not familiar enough with DNA to say the Engineers are human. There's primates that share a lot of our DNA but you still wouldn't call them humans.
And David talked about how the pathogen reacts with human DNA. If Engineer DNA was the same, he wouldn't have needed human tissue for his experiments.
Quote from: SiL on May 30, 2019, 09:00:46 AM
The number of Aliens isn't the point in the least, and I can't think of anyone who's mentioned it at any point ???
Xenomrph mentioned that with David being the creator, the chances of more xenos/eggs spread accross the galaxy or slim to none.
That's what it came down to.
Quote from: Stitch on May 30, 2019, 09:31:14 AMAgain, I know it's not canon, but aren't predators technically weird ass space creatures?
I wouldn't consider them that weird in that they walk on two legs, have two arms, one head, two eyes, one mouth,...
This is weird to me. Imagine that floating about ground and speaking an alien language.
(https://i.imgflip.com/2l1ylv.gif)
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 30, 2019, 04:28:01 PM
We're tied to the Engineers. A race of space beings. That's good enough for me.
A race of space humans. And one of our robots made the Alien. Every alien species in the series is now directly related to us.
QuoteNot important enough to keep around. Catch my drift?
No. You seem to be confusing "important" with "beneficial" and they're not the least bit synonymous.
QuoteNot familiar enough with DNA to say the Engineers are human.
Prometheus did it for you.
QuoteAnd David talked about how the pathogen reacts with human DNA.
He talks about how it reacts with non plant organic matter.
Quote from: SiL on May 30, 2019, 10:12:12 PM
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 30, 2019, 04:28:01 PM
We're tied to the Engineers. A race of space beings. That's good enough for me.
A race of space humans. And one of our robots made the Alien. Every alien species in the series is now directly related to us.
But if the Engineers are the ones who came first..maybe there's no such things as the human being in the
Alien universe ???
(https://i.imgur.com/70X83pJ.jpg)
Perhaps we're more like mini-engineers or something :-X
(https://i.imgur.com/SI0fSLL.jpg)
Exactly everything is "human" now.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi66.tinypic.com%2F70z9za.jpg&hash=0748c62494721605d181c7dc95328e53843dbdee)
QuoteA race of space humans. And one of our robots made the Alien. Every alien species in the series is now directly related to us.
STOP!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette2.wikia.nocookie.net%2Faliens%2Fimages%2F1%2F1b%2FHammerpede.png%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20120612195051&hash=b6d1f409684b941f7215cd9e13c0e371ba66b71e)
Quote from: SM on May 30, 2019, 11:35:26 PM
QuoteA race of space humans. And one of our robots made the Alien. Every alien species in the series is now directly related to us.
STOP!
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette2.wikia.nocookie.net%2Faliens%2Fimages%2F1%2F1b%2FHammerpede.png%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20120612195051&hash=b6d1f409684b941f7215cd9e13c0e371ba66b71e)
Stay cool. Any respectable biologist will tell you "talk nice to it and you'll be fine".
Quote from: SiL on May 30, 2019, 10:12:12 PMA race of space humans. And one of our robots made the Alien. Every alien species in the series is now directly related to us.
There's different types of humans, no? I consider us related to them and less the other way around.
And like SM, mentioned, what about the hammerpede?
Quote from: SiL on May 30, 2019, 10:12:12 PMNo. You seem to be confusing "important" with "beneficial" and they're not the least bit synonymous.
Just trying to say is that something important isn't necessarily a positive thing.
Quote from: SiL on May 30, 2019, 10:12:12 PMPrometheus did it for you.
I'm still convinced there's a (small) difference. Same species, yes. Same sub species, no.
As I guess there'd be DNA difference between some blonde Scandinavian person and an Australian Aboriginal
Quote from: SiL on May 30, 2019, 10:12:12 PM
He talks about how it reacts with non plant organic matter.
Pretty sure he talked about human tissue in Advent. I'll have to rewatch.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 31, 2019, 12:58:44 AM
There's different types of humans, no? I consider us related to them and less the other way around.
I don't consider different types of humans alien species, that's usually considered racism :)
QuoteAnd like SM, mentioned, what about the hammerpede?
Tracked into the ampule room by people, to be mutated by human-made space good.
QuoteJust trying to say is that something important isn't necessarily a positive thing.
I never said otherwise.
QuoteI'm still convinced there's a (small) difference. Same species, yes. Same sub species, no.
As I guess there'd be DNA difference between some blonde Scandinavian person and an Australian Aboriginal
There's DNA difference between any two people regardless of race.
Pretty sure the worms were indigenous.
And do we know the Engineers created the goo? Or did they just harness it?
Yeah, although I'd say birthed, not mutated, but agreed.
We don't ultimately know where the Pathogen's from, it's the one truly Alien aspect now.
More alien than Alien (https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=60051.0).
Quote from: SM on May 31, 2019, 01:34:25 AM
Pretty sure the worms were indigenous.
Still tracked into the room by the team :P
QuoteAnd do we know the Engineers created the goo? Or did they just harness it?
There's nothing in the movies to really suggest it wasn't their creation.
The worms aren't really related to us though. And more than likely already in the room.
It would seem however, that all the other creatures are related to humans (not sure about them motes though).
Quote from: SiL on May 31, 2019, 01:17:29 AMI don't consider different types of humans alien species, that's usually considered racism :)
But they're from space. Doesn't that add to the less human factor?
Quote from: SiL on May 31, 2019, 01:17:29 AMTracked into the ampule room by people, to be mutated by human-made space good.
Because people found it, it's not alien?
Quote from: SiL on May 31, 2019, 01:17:29 AMI never said otherwise.
Then... We agree? I guess.
Or what were we talking about? :laugh:
Quote from: SiL on May 31, 2019, 01:17:29 AMThere's DNA difference between any two people regardless of race.
I know. But I was taking race into account.
We know because of the DNA test the Engineers turned out to be human.
But if they'd do a more detailed test, it would probably reveal the difference in race, yes? Something new instead of the gene that makes us whatever race we are. And maybe more testing would reveal more differences?
So I admit they're human, just different.
And, but this might have been a goof, the Engineer in Prometheus didn't seem to need oxygen when going from the crashed Juggernaut to the pod, nor was he wearing his helmet.
Quote from: The Old One on May 31, 2019, 01:35:00 AM
We don't ultimately know where the Pathogen's from, it's the one truly Alien aspect now.
This.
A more detailed test would reveal they're taller and have less melanin.
Which doesn't need a DNA test.
Yeah, divergent evolution because of originally evolving on their own (Earthlike) planet at least-
Divergent evolution and genetic tampering at most.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 31, 2019, 02:08:34 AM
But they're from space. Doesn't that add to the less human factor?
Not really, no. No more than being from another continent.
We don't know the Engineers's evolutionary background. Ridley talked about evolution on interviews, so despite the whole creation stuff evolution is still part of the prequel universe, meaning humans still evolved from ancient primates, just the Engineers guided it get where they wanted. At least that's my headcanon and Ridley literally believe aliens assisted on human evolution, so that was his intention with the movie I guess.
Like how we make synths look like us, Engineers made some monkeys look like them. Engineers don't see humans as equals, I don't think they see humans as the same species as them, no more than that we consider synths to be human, there must be differences between us beyond what can be found on a DNA test. We might not have the technology to see it like the Engineers do. Their ancestry is completely different. All human races evolved from the same primate ancestor, Engineers don't. Maybe that's why they have no hair. No monkey genes. We are just the mutated offspring of monkeys that were experimented on by Engineers for the lols.
Huh wonder how different an Engineer bloodwork would look like. Like how their hormonal levels would compare to humans, or if they have stuff we don't. Besides that, there is probably differences in regards to bone density, muscle fibers distribution. We only saw one's body but it looks like their muscle insertions aren't much different from us. Then there is the difference on the eyes.
They wouldn't be a "match" for us if they lacked all of our primate-driven genes.'
Which is one of the many reasons I dislike the Engineers. Them being "a match" for humans doesn't make any sense even in the context of a series about face-raping intergalactic parasites.
Well Ridley isn't a specialist on genetics or evolution, in fact its quite the opposite. So yeah, they are a "match" for us despite probably not having any primate-driven genes. Engineers somehow managed to make humans have an equal DNA to them despite the different evolutionary background between the 2 species.
It doesn't make sense but its science fiction and Ridley. I don't like it either, but I try to headcanon around it. Like maybe DNA doesn't work exactly the same on the Prequels' universe as it does in real life.
Side note:
I really appreciate being able to "nerd out" with you peeps.
This is fun.
Quote from: SiL on May 31, 2019, 03:45:29 AM
They wouldn't be a "match" for us if they lacked all of our primate-driven genes.'
Which is one of the many reasons I dislike the Engineers. Them being "a match" for humans doesn't make any sense even in the context of a series about face-raping intergalactic parasites.
^ This, goddammit! >:(
While AR is still my #1 most hated film in the series, I think Prometheus and Covenant went much, MUCH further towards derailing the mythos of the aliens themselves.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 30, 2019, 04:28:01 PM
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 30, 2019, 04:23:00 AM
N-no? It was my dog, and then Ridley Scott came and abused it, and then you're offering me a new puppy as a consolation prize.
If you're trying to compare things to Cameron and 'Aliens' again, that's some pretty hefty whataboutism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism).
If you wanna stick with your dog analogy: Timelinewise, Ridley did it before it was your dog. Cameron did it afterwards.
That's not whataboutism, that's fact. You'd like your dog less because it turned out he had a different past.
But you got no problem that someone's else turned him into a bug the screeches like a bird.
It's absolutely whataboutism because we're not talking about James Cameron, we're talking about Ridley Scott and what he did. Diverting attention to James Cameron or trying to claim that what Ridley Scott did is okay just because James Cameron did something is literally the definition of whataboutism.
Also, you're assuming I don't like what James Cameron did.
The whole point of the analogy is that f**king with something and then offering up something "new and different" as a consolation doesn't solve the problem.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 30, 2019, 04:28:01 PM
Quote from: SiL on May 30, 2019, 09:00:46 AM
The number of Aliens isn't the point in the least, and I can't think of anyone who's mentioned it at any point ???
Xenomrph mentioned that with David being the creator, the chances of more xenos/eggs spread accross the galaxy or slim to none.
That's what it came down to.
For what it's worth, this is correct. The unspeakable horror lurking in the dark corners of the galaxy gets a lot less scary when you can (reasonably) definitively say there aren't any lurking out there because the creature is only decades old and can be traced back to one source.
Quote from: Xenomrph on May 31, 2019, 07:51:54 AM
It's absolutely whataboutism because we're not talking about James Cameron, we're talking about Ridley Scott and what he did. Diverting attention to James Cameron or trying to claim that what Ridley Scott did is okay just because James Cameron did something is literally the definition of whataboutism.
Also, you're assuming I don't like what James Cameron did.
The whole point of the analogy is that f**king with something and then offering up something "new and different" as a consolation doesn't solve the problem.
To me it was about your dog.
I totally get your analogy, I just have the feeling it's not the right one for this situation.
Quote from: SM on May 31, 2019, 02:00:44 AM
The worms aren't really related to us though.
Oh, c'mon, SM: give a nematode a hug... ;)
Quote from: Samhain13 on May 31, 2019, 04:03:45 AM
Well Ridley isn't a specialist on genetics or evolution, in fact its quite the opposite. So yeah, they are a "match" for us despite probably not having any primate-driven genes. Engineers somehow managed to make humans have an equal DNA to them despite the different evolutionary background between the 2 species.
It doesn't make sense but its science fiction and Ridley. I don't like it either, but I try to headcanon around it. Like maybe DNA doesn't work exactly the same on the Prequels' universe as it does in real life.
I'm not an expert, but we can say that:
-The Engineer is a species of the genus Homo (like Homo floresiensis or Homo erectus) but not a synonym for Homo sapiens.
or
-It's a case of convergent evolution, and Engineers aren't relative to humans at all.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.tinypic.com%2Fa1laog.jpg&hash=7904c4365143ad0a56995a4573ec180654525350)
But yeah, the "DNA Match" nonsense it is still there :P
I don't know anything about anything but...
I took it as the engineers were seeding primordial planets with the same tree of life that exists on earth. Explaining why we are a match with the engineers and planet 4's very earth like flora. If they pick the right planets with the right conditions wait a few billion years and life proceeds in a mostly similar manner?
Probably stupid but thats where my head went with it when I watched Prometheus and Covenant.
Right. Like a religious ritual. Surprised someone hasn't written a paper on it, since it's ripe for extrapolations and theories, as you've pointed out.
I wished they kept more religious aspects in the prequels, except for the Jesus Engineer.
Like how the pyramid in AvP had architectural characteristics from different cultures, I think it would've been cool if there were influences from all religions. And maybe other myths, legends, tales,..
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 01, 2019, 02:52:02 AM
I don't know anything about anything but...
I took it as the engineers were seeding primordial planets with the same tree of life that exists on earth. Explaining why we are a match with the engineers and planet 4's very earth like flora. If they pick the right planets with the right conditions wait a few billion years and life proceeds in a mostly similar manner?
Probably stupid but thats where my head went with it when I watched Prometheus and Covenant.
Following this line of thought, if the hypothetical 'Paradise' movie had gone the originally planned route and left the Alien connections behind entirely, I thought it would have been a neat idea if Shaw had stumbled across a distant planet that had humans living on it, but those humans had genuinely evolved on that planet totally independent of Earth, courtesy of the Engineers' seeding of life. So humanity in essence had two "homeworlds" and didn't even realize it.
I thought that would have been kind of a neat idea.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 01, 2019, 02:52:02 AM
I don't know anything about anything but...
I took it as the engineers were seeding primordial planets with the same tree of life that exists on earth. Explaining why we are a match with the engineers and planet 4's very earth like flora. If they pick the right planets with the right conditions wait a few billion years and life proceeds in a mostly similar manner?
Probably stupid but thats where my head went with it when I watched Prometheus and Covenant.
Pretty much.
Quote from: SM on Jun 01, 2019, 06:04:56 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 01, 2019, 02:52:02 AM
I don't know anything about anything but...
I took it as the engineers were seeding primordial planets with the same tree of life that exists on earth. Explaining why we are a match with the engineers and planet 4's very earth like flora. If they pick the right planets with the right conditions wait a few billion years and life proceeds in a mostly similar manner?
Probably stupid but thats where my head went with it when I watched Prometheus and Covenant.
Pretty much.
So cosmic convergent evolution + directed panspermia.
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on Jun 01, 2019, 05:01:36 AM
I wished they kept more religious aspects in the prequels, except for the Jesus Engineer.
Like how the pyramid in AvP had architectural characteristics from different cultures, I think it would've been cool if there were influences from all religions. And maybe other myths, legends, tales,..
I like to think in the Engineers as a race of wise space shamans who created life through sacrifice, in the ancient past.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi67.tinypic.com%2F9b9eh4.jpg&hash=c604b81ff20c725186018a46abba89db69b34f6f)
Then in the future, when David arrives; a dark, barbaric and sadistic culture.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi66.tinypic.com%2Fixb4wh.jpg&hash=3b3bb1610f8f2909477eee290c2599ea6ec421e6)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi67.tinypic.com%2Forjs5d.jpg&hash=a0317ed2cd3ee7ffea769a47e01132cb863e6ffd)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi66.tinypic.com%2Ficoiv4.jpg&hash=9da2fcf16f951992d802a00b23bcfe599372b5bb)
Quote from: SiL on May 29, 2019, 10:13:12 PM
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 06:14:28 PM
How does them visiting and interacting with mankind shrink the universe?
For me it's the opposite. It adds to the universe. Who knows how many other planets they seeded, visited or build stuff on?
How does saying "the lonely dead alien in the middle of space was literally just a man in a suit" expand the universe?
The derelict and jockey was a glimpse that the universe was large and full of strange beings, long dead, or at least dormant. It showed that space was inhabited by truly alien organisms.
Prometheus said no, they're actually just other humans, and they made us, and were actually planning on killing us just last week. Likewise the Alien was a science experiment thought up the other day, this time by a robot human.
Basically the prequels have just made all of space the soap opera of the human race and its relatives. The human race is now intimately linked with every alien species in the series. There are no distant horrors. It's just us.
Tl; Dr In Alien mankind stumbles across the vast unknown of things beyond our experiences. In the prequels mankind stumbled upon the fact humans are actually super special and everything is all about us always.
Well said sir. The prequels make everything less than alien and more familial.
As for the worms/hammerpede I was always under the impression that they rapidly evolved from the microorganisms exhaled from the crew after removing their helmets as There's even a comment made on them changing the atmosphere when in said room. So it seems to me that those aliens still come from humans as well.
How did a micro-organism evolve into a worm and get into the dirt in thirty seconds?
Cant the space goo do anything the plot wants to happen?
Quote from: Samhain13 on Jun 01, 2019, 10:10:52 PM
Cant the space goo do anything the plot wants to happen?
They weren't exposed to the space goo at that point.
Is it safe to assume that the goo isn't capable of time travel?
Then how about Life and Death's ending?
Ambiguous.
And also in a crossover comic series.
Forget it exists.
It'll benefit everyone.
Quote from: Xiggz456 on Jun 01, 2019, 05:32:04 PM
Quote from: SiL on May 29, 2019, 10:13:12 PM
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 06:14:28 PM
How does them visiting and interacting with mankind shrink the universe?
For me it's the opposite. It adds to the universe. Who knows how many other planets they seeded, visited or build stuff on?
How does saying "the lonely dead alien in the middle of space was literally just a man in a suit" expand the universe?
The derelict and jockey was a glimpse that the universe was large and full of strange beings, long dead, or at least dormant. It showed that space was inhabited by truly alien organisms.
Prometheus said no, they're actually just other humans, and they made us, and were actually planning on killing us just last week. Likewise the Alien was a science experiment thought up the other day, this time by a robot human.
Basically the prequels have just made all of space the soap opera of the human race and its relatives. The human race is now intimately linked with every alien species in the series. There are no distant horrors. It's just us.
Tl; Dr In Alien mankind stumbles across the vast unknown of things beyond our experiences. In the prequels mankind stumbled upon the fact humans are actually super special and everything is all about us always.
Well said sir. The prequels make everything less than alien and more familial.
As for the worms/hammerpede I was always under the impression that they rapidly evolved from the microorganisms exhaled from the crew after removing their helmets as There's even a comment made on them changing the atmosphere when in said room. So it seems to me that those aliens still come from humans as well.
There's a deleted scene where Milburn notices the worms and specifically points out that they're extraterrestrial.
Oh yeah we at least got space worms that aren't linked to humanity. Thanks Ridley.
Quote from: SM on Jun 01, 2019, 10:06:08 PM
How did a micro-organism evolve into a worm and get into the dirt in thirty seconds?
Accelerant
Quote from: Xenomrph on Jun 01, 2019, 11:49:36 PM
Quote from: Xiggz456 on Jun 01, 2019, 05:32:04 PM
Quote from: SiL on May 29, 2019, 10:13:12 PM
Quote from: Baron Von Marlon on May 29, 2019, 06:14:28 PM
How does them visiting and interacting with mankind shrink the universe?
For me it's the opposite. It adds to the universe. Who knows how many other planets they seeded, visited or build stuff on?
How does saying "the lonely dead alien in the middle of space was literally just a man in a suit" expand the universe?
The derelict and jockey was a glimpse that the universe was large and full of strange beings, long dead, or at least dormant. It showed that space was inhabited by truly alien organisms.
Prometheus said no, they're actually just other humans, and they made us, and were actually planning on killing us just last week. Likewise the Alien was a science experiment thought up the other day, this time by a robot human.
Basically the prequels have just made all of space the soap opera of the human race and its relatives. The human race is now intimately linked with every alien species in the series. There are no distant horrors. It's just us.
Tl; Dr In Alien mankind stumbles across the vast unknown of things beyond our experiences. In the prequels mankind stumbled upon the fact humans are actually super special and everything is all about us always.
Well said sir. The prequels make everything less than alien and more familial.
As for the worms/hammerpede I was always under the impression that they rapidly evolved from the microorganisms exhaled from the crew after removing their helmets as There's even a comment made on them changing the atmosphere when in said room. So it seems to me that those aliens still come from humans as well.
There's a deleted scene where Milburn notices the worms and specifically points out that they're extraterrestrial.
Of course he would say that as he has no idea that the accelerant rapidly evolves organisms. Worms on another planet would naturally be labeled extraterrestrial. Not saying I'm right simply my supposition but if this is the case:
Quote from: SM on Jun 01, 2019, 06:04:56 AM
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 01, 2019, 02:52:02 AM
I don't know anything about anything but...
I took it as the engineers were seeding primordial planets with the same tree of life that exists on earth. Explaining why we are a match with the engineers and planet 4's very earth like flora. If they pick the right planets with the right conditions wait a few billion years and life proceeds in a mostly similar manner?
Probably stupid but thats where my head went with it when I watched Prometheus and Covenant.
Pretty much.
Then the worms are virtually the same as earth worms so cool alien bro!
Quote from: SM on Jun 02, 2019, 12:14:39 PM
QuoteAccelerant
Again?
Were they not in the urn room?
Could the worms on lv223 be indiginous? It doesnt appear that it was ever seeded with life by the engineers.
Quote from: 426Buddy on Jun 02, 2019, 01:23:30 PM
Could the worms on lv223 be indiginous? It doesnt appear that it was ever seeded with life by the engineers.
That's the reason for my supposition. LV223 appears to be a barren rock and considering the virulent bio weapons stored there I can't imagine the engineers wanting any life forms around.
"No indigenous lifeforms" makes sense.
Quote from: Xiggz456 on Jun 02, 2019, 12:59:39 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 02, 2019, 12:14:39 PM
QuoteAccelerant
Again?
Were they not in the urn room?
They weren't open.
QuoteCould the worms on lv223 be indiginous?
Yes.
I don't imagine the Engineers seeded such lifeforms. Life existed on the planet at the start before it was seeded.
Quote from: SM on Jun 02, 2019, 08:36:21 PM
Quote from: Xiggz456 on Jun 02, 2019, 12:59:39 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 02, 2019, 12:14:39 PM
QuoteAccelerant
Again?
Were they not in the urn room?
They weren't open.
QuoteCould the worms on lv223 be indiginous?
Yes.
I don't imagine the Engineers seeded such lifeforms. Life existed on the planet at the start before it was seeded.
Yeah, but Oxygen levels were normal inside the dome and Holloway said "they were terraforming here". So worms could be a side effect of terraforming within the structure, and maybe they choose toxic and sterile planet in order to keep the biological threat isolated and inside the domes, like and anthrax Island.
Yeah possibly.
Quote from: SM on Jun 02, 2019, 08:36:21 PM
Quote from: Xiggz456 on Jun 02, 2019, 12:59:39 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 02, 2019, 12:14:39 PM
QuoteAccelerant
Again?
Were they not in the urn room?
They weren't open.
QuoteCould the worms on lv223 be indiginous?
Yes.
I don't imagine the Engineers seeded such lifeforms. Life existed on the planet at the start before it was seeded.
Does it matter? We know there was an outbreak and it's a safe bet that originated in the urn room; therefore the soil could still be contaminated.
@ImmortanJonsy I could buy the worms being a side effect of creating an atmosphere.
Considering the Engineers were running away from something towards the ampule room, no, the safe bet is it didn't start there.
That and none of them are open.
Quote from: SM on Jun 02, 2019, 10:25:39 PM
Considering the Engineers were running away from something towards the ampule room, no, the safe bet is it didn't start there.
That and none of them are open.
Supposition. They could've also been running there in an attempt to contain the outbreak, but this is supposition also. Either way I can buy into the worms being a byproduct of atmosphere processing.
Anyone know if the script adds any caveats regarding the worms?
Quote from: Xiggz456 on Jun 02, 2019, 10:45:01 PM
Quote from: SM on Jun 02, 2019, 10:25:39 PM
Considering the Engineers were running away from something towards the ampule room, no, the safe bet is it didn't start there.
That and none of them are open.
Supposition. They could've also been running there in an attempt to contain the outbreak, but this is supposition also. Either way I can buy into the worms being a byproduct of atmosphere processing.
Anyone know if the script adds any caveats regarding the worms?
Yup, the consequences of the outbreak can be noticed outside the ampule room, making it difficult to conclude where everything started in the first place. So, I think nobody was safe (not even inside the ship) and maybe the last Engineer was just a lucky bastard.
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/gallery/albums/movies/prometheus/bluray/prometheus-bluray-0484.jpg)
(https://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FRtA3j.jpg&hash=dd01782d39b673d6e544ae47144f71de)
I'm not sure they gave it that much attention. There were the other worms that got cut that Millburn found that looked to be swimming in black goo too.
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 02, 2019, 10:59:06 PM
So, I think nobody was safe (not even inside the ship) and maybe the last Engineer was just a lucky bastard.
He might have slept towards the whole thing. Woke up with no idea what had happened with uneducated primates whining at him.
In Fire and Stone/Life and Death its shown other Engineers also were left on stasis there for some reason. Maybe the Engineers do shift work and it was their time to take a break. Then shit hit the fan and there were stuck on their nap time.
Quote from: SM on Jun 02, 2019, 11:03:28 PM
I'm not sure they gave it that much attention. There were the other worms that got cut that Millburn found that looked to be swimming in black goo too.
IIRC, this happens during a scene where Holloway mentions the terraforming, in a place where there is a giant hole in the ground.
(https://www-avpgalaxy-net.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w1000/s/www.avpgalaxy.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/del03-0001-500x208.jpg)
Also, I think the "black goo" is in fact Martian pee (a type of collagen or sediment according to Milburn). But seriously, you can see water and wet falling from a tunnel or something like that.
Quote from: Samhain13 on Jun 02, 2019, 11:12:42 PM
Quote from: Immortan Jonesy on Jun 02, 2019, 10:59:06 PM
So, I think nobody was safe (not even inside the ship) and maybe the last Engineer was just a lucky bastard.
He might have slept towards the whole thing. Woke up with no idea what had happened with uneducated primates whining at him.
In Fire and Stone/Life and Death its shown other Engineers also were left on stasis there for some reason. Maybe the Engineers do shift work and it was their time to take a break. Then shit hit the fan and there were stuck on their nap time.
Maybe the not so lucky Engineers were also finishing their work for a break...
(https://media.tenor.com/images/aaa558f0aa557333000273296501aa9e/tenor.gif)
QuoteBut seriously, you can see water and wet falling from a tunnel or something like that.
Yeah I know but the liquid looks a lot like the black goo. I don't think it is the goo - and it's moot anyway since it got cut.
Quote from: SM on Jun 02, 2019, 11:03:28 PM
I'm not sure they gave it that much attention.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/lTpme2Po0hkqI/giphy.gif)
I figured the worms were in fact put there by the Engineers as the domes are mini terraforming areas. You need worms to treat the soil.
Also the urns spill out infecting the worms when they enter the room, is that what you guys are talking about?
Quote from: Highland on Jun 03, 2019, 02:30:45 AM
I figured the worms were in fact put there by the Engineers as the domes are mini terraforming areas. You need worms to treat the soil.
Also the urns spill out infecting the worms when they enter the room, is that what you guys are talking about?
What I think is being mentioned is that there are worms in the tunnels (deleted scene).
The Engineers having worms in the soil makes sense.
Then I believe the worms got tracked into the sculpture/shrine room by the boots of the human crew. The worms interacted with the black goo from the urns & that = the Hammerpede.
;)
Quote from: bb-15 on Jun 15, 2019, 01:06:23 AM
Quote from: Highland on Jun 03, 2019, 02:30:45 AM
I figured the worms were in fact put there by the Engineers as the domes are mini terraforming areas. You need worms to treat the soil.
Also the urns spill out infecting the worms when they enter the room, is that what you guys are talking about?
What I think is being mentioned is that there are worms in the tunnels (deleted scene).
The Engineers having worms in the soil makes sense.
Then I believe the worms got tracked into the sculpture/shrine room by the boots of the human crew. The worms interacted with the black goo from the urns & that = the Hammerpede.
;)
That's not really what I thought. I thought the worms are populated inside the dome ( all over for the air etc), they were always in the ampule room, but the ampules become unstable because the humans open the door then the stuff spilled on the floor.
Doesn't really explain why the Engineer was running in there mind you, maybe he was just bricking it and that was the first door he came too.
I think originally the outbreak would've happened kinda like this
(https://www.scified.com/u/black-template_orig.jpg)
Or a smaller scale variation on the bombing scene.
But because they're wearing suits, the end result looks different.
I believe so.
I often wonder what grand bio-tech hazard warnings might've been triggered, à la the holo David activated.
We'll likely never know. The bombing of Planet 4 showed nothing of the sort.